Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/07/health/antidepressants-withdrawal-prozac-cymbalta.html <comment><USER3> I was up to 10mg/daily of Lexapro for two years. When my doctor and I agreed it was time to stop taking it, his advice was to go down to 5mg for a week, then stop.

When I tried stopping after the 5mg dose I had constant vertigo symptoms and incredible difficulty sleeping.

What I ended up doing was cutting the pills in half for a few weeks, then quarters, then removing one day a week from the schedule until I was down 2.5mg/wk. Finally I was able to stop, and only was mildly affected for 3 weeks after that.

That stuff does weird things to your brain. On the flip side, I couldn't have gotten through some really rough times without it.

<comment><USER4> I had the same issues coming off of Lexapro. Weird brain shocks. Bupropion (Wellbutrin) has been better for me all around, but I worry about what it will be like coming down off of it too. The good news is that I'm overall in a good place and feel like I probably don't need it anymore.

<comment><USER5> Bupropion is marketed as Zyban as a smoking cessation aid meaning that people are coming down on it when they quit Zyban, after they quit smoking. I've done this, twice. I've also used Ritalin in the past. It works similar, and from my memory the coming down is also similar.

<comment><USER6> I tried Zyban years ago. After 7 days I stopped smoking and then had this weird time slowing down effect. I guess most people don't have that effect but I wonder how many do.

<comment><USER7> I had the same thing. I was so used to time flying by, it was going slower, which I consider a great thing :).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> To offer the converse, I had a very traumatic event in my life and was put on an SSRI, which helped me function. After almost 2 years of taking it, I didn't think I needed it anymore and I tapered myself off very slowly but regularly, keeping logs and setting alarms. While in the beginning I felt some vertigo and other symptoms, I tapered very gradually, and was completely free at the end of my taper. My symptoms never come back and the SSRI helped me make very real progress on my issues. I'm eternally glad for my SSRI use and a medical system that knows when to prescribe it, as I would have probably not been able to hold down a (at the time, very stressful) job during the initial phases after the event without the help of the SSRI, and it probably would have taken me many years to recover. For those that SSRIs work on, it really works.

<comment><USER9> >> I'm eternally glad for my SSRI use and a medical system that knows when to prescribe it...

Your story of recovery is a good one (and not the only good one). The problem is that a number of people in that same system don't see any need to get people off these medications. IMHO they are best used short term (whatever that means) while you work through your issues - like you did.

For those reading, there is no "correct" timeline for working through your issues. Everyone goes at their own pace. I would just encourage you to try, and not assume a lifetime of medication is a good solution.

<comment><USER10> >The problem is that a number of people in that same system don't see any need to get people off these medications

Why is this a problem? If long term studies prove detrimental effects then sure, it's a problem.

But taking a pill every day isn't inherently bad for you. If you live in a northern climate you would probably benefit from taking Vitamin D every day your entire life, so what's the fundamental difference of an SSRI?

<comment><USER11> The issue isn't taking medication daily; it's taking psychotropic, brain- and personality-altering medication for years, especially when it comes with potential for bad side effects which may last after cessation (such as with SSRIs). I take vitamin D daily and I really don't think you can equate it to SSRIs whatsoever.

Clearly SSRIs help many people in a significant way, but their mechanism of action is still poorly understood and their effects are powerful enough that they should be prescribed and taken long-term only with careful advising and caution. For some people, maybe taking them until the day they die is the best option, but it probably is also harmful for some people to take them for several years.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> >Yet withdrawal has never been a focus of drug makers or government regulators, who felt antidepressants could not be addictive and did far more good than harm.

They're not addictive. They cause dependence. There is an important difference. Addictive things increase incentive salience of stimuli associated with the drug. They increase wanting. And that increased wanting leads to increased usage.

Dependence on a drug does not have this aspect. It just represents the bodies physiological adaptation to the new state.

Conflating the two is bad practice for an article ostensibly about medicine. And it leads people, and that set includes legislators, to think about using more government violence to enforce regulations of drugs which create dependence.

<comment><USER13> Having been addicted to prescription pills, and currently being prescribed (and presumably dependent on) antidepressants, I think there are a few points that make the distinction abundantly clear:

1\. When I consider stopping antidepressants, I'm not filled with anything like the dread I was when I thought about giving up the addictive pills.

2\. I forget to take my antidepressants sometimes. I forget to refill the prescription sometimes.

3\. I have never had any desire to take more than the prescribed dose of my antidepressants.

It's an important distinction, and unfortunately one that folks in the recovery community sometimes miss. In my experience the above characterization usually brings it home much better than some heavily medicalized description of addiction vs dependency.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> The "Chemical Imbalence Theory", although heavely popular and promoted, is largely unfounded on science:

[https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical- imbalanc...](https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalance- theory-of-depression-still-promoted-but-still-unfounded/)

<comment><USER15> Meta studies still show that antidepressants help more than the placebo [https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847](https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847)

<comment><USER16> And multiple studies show them no more effective than exercise: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/)

The bigger problem is "depression" is not reproducibly measurable, because it has no falsifiable or biomedical marker.

<comment><USER9> >> The bigger problem is "depression" is not reproducibly measurable, because it has no falsifiable or biomedical marker.

That's something I like to point out using SSRIs as an example. The claim is that they increase levels of serotonin and that the cause of the depression is reduced serotonin. The thing is, nobody actually checks your serotonin levels and says "oh that's low take this." Then there's the problem of _why_ ones serotonin is low when it wasn't always that way. There are probably many causes of depression and quite possibly some that don't lower serotonin.

<comment><USER17> If mdma makes you friendlier, does that mean that people who are shy are suffering from friendliness deficit disorder and can I get a prescription for it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> That brings back horrible memories. I took an SSRI for several years, initially prescribed by a GP. But the problem was that I wasn't "depressed". I am bipolar, and sometimes got stuck in down mode.

The SSRI _did_ make me more functional. But what it mostly did was make me affectless. That is, I could be sad or happy or angry or whatever, and I felt pretty much nothing. However, I still did whatever someone who was sad or happy or angry or whatever would do. You could say that it made me sociopathic. But fortunately, not homicidal or suicidal. Or at least, not in a big way. Also, I lost interest in sex, and it took forever to reach orgasm.

And yes, quitting was painful. Mostly I recall restless leg syndrome. I would kick my partner while asleep. And I got even crazier for a while, as I tapered off.

So now I'm taking modafinil and lamotrigine. Which works very well for me. I'm a little manic most of the time, but I like that. And I'm not at all sociopathic.

<comment><USER19> Interesting - I have bipolar too (that is, bipolar II), also misdiagnosed as pure depression for a while. However, the SSRI didn't flatten my affect, but instead amplified my hypomania to where it was severe enough to be diagnosed. Now I'm on lamotrigine and sertraline, and the two together keep me stable and up.

<comment><USER20> How did you end up getting properly diagnosed for Bipolar disorder? I'm currently taking antidepressants after battling SOME kind of mental illness for most of my adult life. I'm really inside my head, and often have very existential, self-doubting moods, to the point where I have burned a lot of bridges (jobs, friends, relationships) with antisocial behaviour (that I would never logically think is the right thing to do), but in the right mood, having also tried MDMA, I act completely normal, can hold conversations, etc. (but that's once in a blue moon normally).

<comment><USER18> I found a psychiatrist who asked me whether amphetamines made me happy or nervous. I said happy. He said bipolar.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Anti depressants along with support from my family and therapist saved my life. Prior to taking anti depressants I would get into moods so depressed that I would have significant chest pain and headaches. The headaches were so severe that without any consideration I almost jumped from the roof of one my school buildings.

Within the first week of taking anti depressants (wellbutrin, I later switched to prozac) I would at random moments of the day begin to remember funny memories. I would be walking to my dorm from class and remember a funny gag from the simpsons and break into a stupid grin.

After two years on anti depressants I was able to stop taking them. I was able to do this by accepting and understanding that while I may have real reasons to be sad, the underlying reason that I was dwelling on these negative thoughts was my brain chemistry. Once I accepted this I was able to justify cheaper less harmful ways of medicating my depression. Whenever I began to feel depressed I would simply go to my tv and start watching episodes of `It's always sunny in philadelphia` or whatever comedy made me happy

I think the worst mistake people with depression make is reinforcing their sadness by listening to sad music, watching sad movies or reading sad books when in fact they should be doing the opposite. They also allow their depression to become part of their identity.

<comment><USER22> _Whenever I began to feel depressed I would simply go to my tv and start watching episodes of `It 's always sunny in philadelphia` or whatever comedy made me happy_

This sounds a bit like you discovered Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. That's actually a very insightful, practical approach you developed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Is there a reason why people are trying to stop taking it? If it helps your life, why not keep using it? For example, I have been taking antihistamine daily for the last 18 years for skin allergy. My QoL is significantly better with it, and unless there is some magical cure, I don't see why I should stop just because it's a "drug", "chemical" or "unnatural".

For example, from the article,

> "A year and a half after stopping, I'm still having problems. I'm not me > right now; I don't have the creativity, the energy. She — Robin — is gone"

If that's important to you, why not continue?

<comment><USER24> Anecdotally I quit because I had just entered a relationship and the anti- depressants affected my sex life in a pretty big way.

<comment><USER25> Neither mirtazapine nor trintellix affected me at all in that dept.

I can't take paxil, zoloft or valium, so it's probably different.

I personally wouldn't stop antidepressants because my physiology goes straight into depression without exception, and then the relationship would likely flounder.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I hope that this doesn't come over as sarcastic, but the pharmaceutical industry is a _business_ , and they will always operate like one:

A business is about making the most money possible: Maximizing revenue is about minimizing the main costs which are generated by the activities of:

(a) _acquiring_ the customer (through: advertising and marketing) and,

(b) _retaining_ the customer (in this case: through dependency).

There are alternatives to anti-depressants. Some people quit depression for good with a well researched and planned LSD trip combined with long-term daily mindful meditation.

No, I'm not saying everybody should take LSD.

<comment><USER27> You _are_ suggesting that depressed people may want to take LSD in lieu of SSRIs, which is horrendous advice that can, for example, trigger panic attacks in those with comorbid anxiety. Please don't.

<comment><USER16> What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI's? Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc.

Both drugs have mechanisms of action that we don't fully understand and both affect the brains homeostasis.

If it's irresponsible to prescribe LSD for depression it's irresponsible to prescribe SSRI's as well

<comment><USER5> > What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI's?

Except that's not how it works.

How it works is that SSRIs have been tested in trials, and are approved.

LSD isn't. When someone says "try LSD" (or psilocybin which seems the newest rage these days) it means they'd illegally acquire the drug (who know for sure _what_ drug they bought? [EDIT: and who knows the dosage/strength of active substance(s)?]), and administer it recreationally without the aid of a professional.

SSRIs, in contrast, are clinically tested, legally acquired, and administered under the guidance of a professional.

> Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, > etc.

Yes, but these side effects are widely documented. There are more common side effects, btw. These are the extreme ones you mentioned, and also the most rare ones. Many side effects are temporary. And if you are suicidal, it is unlikely you get SSRIs prescribed. Unless you lie about that, of course, but if you lie to your MD you're on your own.

My recommendation is simple: seek professional help. If you don't want to take SSRIs, fair enough; your MD won't force you. Heck, they might even be reluctant to prescribe them. But professional help is much more than drugs. Think about CBT, mindfulness, under the guidance of professionals; not self- medicating new age hippies.

<comment><USER16> You keep saying "professional" as if that means anything here.

The professionals that without any evidence promoted the low-serotonin theory of depression. Who, after over a decade of prescribing SSRI's finally admitted that low serotonin doesn't cause depression. Yeah, those professionals. They don't know what causes depression yet they're happy to keep prescribing drugs. But it's the "self-medicating new age hippies" that are irresponsible?

<comment><USER5> It means a lot, it means that the person who's responsible for your therapy (which might involve drugs) has studied for years (it takes a while until one's a psychiatrist!). It means they understand the fundamentals required for their title. Such credentials are worth a lot in our societies, hence the high wage. Perhaps not in the alternative medicine field where you're flocking around but realise you are the exception here; not the norm.

Also, those professionals aren't necessarily the same people. Do you fault Linus Torvalds for a bug in the Windows NT kernel because he's a software developer? Science is constantly in motion and questioning itself. The drug usage in the past before drugs were illegal (pre-2nd part of 20th century) was more irresponsible, and its thanks to science and law this has reduced. And specifically, SSRIs are more safe than antidepressants used before SSRIs such as TCAs and MAOIs.

<comment><USER28> > Such credentials are worth a lot in our societies, hence the high wage.

Lots of professionals with great titles and affiliations steer people down a totally incorrect path.

An easy example of this is Harvard study published in the New England Journal of Medicine promoting dietary fat reduction, shaping what every credentialed person would advise for diet for the next 50 years: [https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo- way/2016/09/13/493739074...](https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo- way/2016/09/13/493739074/50-years-ago-sugar-industry-quietly-paid-scientists- to-point-blame-at-fat)

Drug companies shoulder the rep of being cold evil capitalists. Psychiatrists also become extremely wealthy as part of this medical complex, and get to keep a positive reputation. It reminds me of ticketmaster essentially being paid to shoulder negative PR for excessive ticket fees which are often largely passed on to performers.

<comment><USER5> > Lots of professionals with great titles and affiliations steer people down a > totally incorrect path.

Not _knowingly_ , and they're expert on the field. There's a few exceptions, but those people are not 100% in the head. Diederik Stapel [1] being a recent example in social psychology.

The chance that you have a sitter without a clue is much higher. Especially because those are usually "friendz". The chance a professional knows better than a self-proclaimed expert is simply too high to discount _all_ professionals.

> Drug companies shoulder the rep of being cold evil capitalists. > Psychiatrists also become extremely wealthy as part of this medical complex, > and get to keep a positive reputation. It reminds me of ticketmaster > essentially being paid to shoulder negative PR for excessive ticket fees > which are often largely passed on to performers.

In The Netherlands, you first try the drugs which are most likely to solve your problem but also you need to consider what gets reimbursed by insurance. Insurance also wants you to go for cheapest generic brand if possible (if patents expired, and the drug is known to work for your ailment). Example: something like Concerta doesn't get reimbursed because Ritalin exists and is considered the generic form. Even though the yo-yo effect is more severe with Ritalin.

Another example, I had the option of going for a SSRI or a SSRI plus antipsychotics. The former has a good track record for people with autism; the latter combo better but it _also_ has more impact. Regular blood checks, and basic insurance doesn't cover the antipsychotics.

As for the positive reputation, when I went for my autism diagnosis I had an anamnesis from an asshole of a psychiatrist. He was working there temporary because they _fired_ their regular psychiatrist very recently. I don't know exactly why, but I do know it was directly related to his functioning as a psychiatrist.

Ticketmaster problem is different (and offtopic though I don't mind analogies). It can be solved by putting a cap by law on how much percentage profit (e.g. 25%) second hand market may earn. That does require political willpower and enforcement of such regulation.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diederik_Stapel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diederik_Stapel)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Ah, another Benedict Carey antidepressant hatchet job. Anecdotes about withdrawal symptoms + alarmist statistics about number of Americans on antidepressants + vague questions about lack of data suggesting that we know little about antidepressant long-term safety.

A few important points:

1\. Antidepressants can truly change people's lives. Not everyone's, and they're not the only treatment that works. Somehow this reporter tends to consistently overlook the clear evidence of benefit (I think this recent meta- analysis was posted on hn: [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251))

2\. Withdrawal symptoms are common if antidepressants are stopped abruptly - some of the folks who reported these symptoms originally have been favorite targets of Benedict Carey, ironically ([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9396960](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9396960)). That's why docs encourage tapering antidepressants.

3\. The article doesn't distinguish between this sort of short-term withdrawal (common), and longer-term problems with discontinuation (likely quite rare) - they're very very different phenomena.

4\. In some cases, difficulty with discontinuing longer-term is a result of persistent depression and anxiety (or returning depression and anxiety). It's not polite to point this out.

5\. It's hard to imagine the Times writing an article about the problem with statins being that, once you stop them, cholesterol increases again.

6\. If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, we would have seen them - and believe me, people have looked and are looking.

7\. BUT - we /do/ need more research to understand long-term effects of antidepressant treatment; this absence of systematic long-term study is true for most meds, frankly, but that's no excuse. My question would be: Who pays for it? There's no shortage of investigators who would be delighted to study it. But try getting a foundation, or NIH, to support such a study.

/rant

<comment><USER30> > If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, > we would have seen them

Drug makers have no incentive to see them. I can say from experience that I have seen them. I spent two months out of work when I had to discontinue Effexor. Other people complained about "brain zaps" and were largely ignored. My doctor never warned me. The evidence is there but there if you look, but there is no one with an economic incentive to pay attention. Just because there are few studies documenting these symptoms doesn't mean they're not. This is a wake up call that more studies need to be done.

<comment><USER31> Discontinuation effects are listed on the patient information leaflet for venlafaxine. Patients, at least in the UK, are always given this leaflet with every packet of medication.

[https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/4487/pil](https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/4487/pil)

> If you stop taking venlafaxine suddenly you may get withdrawal reactions > (see section 3)

[...]

> Do not stop taking your treatment or reduce the dose without the advice of > your doctor even if you feel better. If your doctor thinks that you no > longer need Venlafaxine tablets, he/she may ask you to reduce your dose > slowly, before stopping treatment altogether. Side effects are known to > occur when people stop using Venlafaxine tablets, especially when > Venlafaxine tablets is stopped suddenly or the dose is reduced too quickly. > Some patients may experience symptoms such as tiredness, dizziness, light- > headedness, headache, sleeplessness, nightmares, dry mouth, loss of > appetite, nausea, diarrhoea, nervousness, agitation, confusion, ringing in > the ears, tingling or rarely, electric shock sensations, weakness, sweating, > seizures or flu-like symptoms. Your doctor will advise you on how you should > gradually discontinue Venlafaxine tablets treatment. If you experience any > of these or other symptoms that are troublesome, ask your doctor for further > advice.

<comment><USER30> And of course, all patients read the long pamphlets extensively /s. We depend on our doctors to explain risks like this. And at the time I was discontinuing (not abruptly) the concept of "brain zaps" was met with great skepticism. I am fairly certain that some of the side effects you list (electric shock sensations) were added more recently. It took years of patients being ignored for the idea to be taken seriously.

<comment><USER32> I've also rarely received accurate advice regarding the likely effects and side-effects of anti-depressants - but I think calling brain zaps a 'risk' is a bit much. Maybe my zaps were nicer than yours, but I don't remember them being particularly painful - except one time I fell in the shower.

Anti-depressants, especially something like venlafaxine, are strong meds for a strong condition. It would be surprising if they had no side effects - <USER2> honestly, if you go to a psychiatrist instead of a normal doctor, you usually get a dose that's fine-tuned to the extent that you don't get them.

<comment><USER33> I had brain zaps and they were very distracting.

I took 2 SSRIs for about 3 years and went off them close to cold turkey. When I would move my eyes it felt like there was a delay between moving and seeing. This lasted for about a month. In general everything felt very disconnected/fuzzy/unreal. Sometimes it was close to what I imagine people describe as an out of body experience.

<comment><USER32> I think if you come off any kind of brain med cold turkey, you're gonna have a very bad time.

I still find articles like the above absolutely horrible, and wish people would stop writing them. Meds saved my life. They save the life of millions of people every year - and they make depression hands-down easier to manage and to live with.

That doctors over-proscribe is another problem. Muck-raking and fear-mongering about what are already scary drugs to very scared depressed people has real costs - people probably die because of articles like the above. Many, many people suffer for years without medication because they're afraid to start them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> What's worse is that the longer you take certain psychiatric drugs, the greater the long-term damage it can possibly cause to almost disability. It's being between a rock and a hard place.

I've taken Abilify, Wellbutrin, Seroquel, and a number of other drugs. The biggest problem when you enter the psychiatric system is you go through pill roulette. You take a drug, try it, see what works, and keep trying till you find what works. Even worse is that I entered the system in high school which is a tumultuous developmental period.

One sad personal story is that a psychiatrist started me on a developmental drug. A drug that was approved for other problems but was "in development" for other uses. I tried it and it was worse than Seroquel. Seroquel, if I missed a dose, I couldn't sleep. For this new drug, if I missed a dose, I had a panic attack and if I took it, I would fall asleep. So if I was out too long, let's say traveling, I had to choose between a panic attack or falling asleep.

When I confronted my psychiatrist about this problem, instead of taking me off the drug, he prescribed me medication for panic attacks.

<comment><USER35> Seroquel is part of a family of drugs (antipsychotics) which have some of the worst long term adverse effects of all psychiatric drugs. Everything from tardive dyskenisia to enlargement of the ventricles of the brain are routinely observed over decades of use, and that's not even mentioning adverse effects which appear almost immediately. In general though, these drugs have little or nothing to do with antidepressants, SSRI's or anything most poeple will ever take.

Of course the adverse effects of psyshcosis and untreated psychotic illness are much worse, including homelessness and death. So while these drugs are undeniably difficult to live with, people who have been prescribed the family including Seroquel generally really need them to function. All of which is to say that the struggles of people on neuroleptic therapy are generally very different from what's being discussed in the article here.

<comment><USER36> An alternate to psychosis as something to interrupt is that it's a biological process that happens when the default mode network isn't sufficient.

The ideal environment is one in which the psychosis can complete.

It's very similar to a psychedelic journey in that with the right set and setting it can lead to deeper compassion, clarity and connection.

I've been through a number of such experiences over the years; I used to be terrified of them and tried to avoid them at all costs.

Now, it's very much an initiation into whatever the next level of my life demands of me. I've learned to make symptoms bigger vs supressing them and in doing so, I recover vital parts of myself.

Without this orientation, I would never have survived so called schizophrenia, bipolar, suicidal depression, psychosis.

<comment><USER35> I'm not going to be able to debate the validity of your experiences of course, and I won't try to. I can say with confidence however that for most people, psychosis is strongly correlated with poor outcomes including homelessness and suicide. Early intervention and prevention leads to the best outcomes, and the more psychotic events in a persons life, the worse the outcomes are on average.

<comment><USER36> Oh I don't disagree. I think the entire culture and system isn't set up for proper integration of psychosis. So given the current landscape, it makes sense that outcomes are so poor. It takes resources of time and emotional capacity to make it through.

Dr. Paris Williams has an incredible book called Rethinking Madness that was instrumental in helping me adopt a framework to complete a psychosis.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I was on 60mg/day Remeron (mirtazapine) for 9 years but discontinued due to decline in its effects. Tried a bunch of the remaining medications, found trintellix which ups anxiety 5x but addresses depression. Taking hydroxyzine as needed for anxiety now.

During taper symptoms:

\- nausea

\- general anxiety

After taper symptoms (continue today):

\- general anxiety

\- strong, brief muscle contractions anywhere in my body (myoclonus)

\- weight loss (good)

<comment><USER37> I am currently on mirtazapine, and this article is prompting me to look into tapering off the drug. I would much appreciate any advice you would give on the process, and any other considerations you can think of that I should be aware of.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> >The drugs have helped millions of people ease depression and anxiety, and are widely regarded as milestones in psychiatric treatment.

History is littered with harmful, poorly-thought out "psychiatric treatments" that were widely regarded as milestones. Even if there are a tiny minority of people who's mental condition is so bad that scrambling their brain with drugs will lead to an "improvement", the widespread reliance on these drugs to treat the every-growing number of depressed and anxious people is not a good thing for individuals, or for society. This is especially true when it comes to young children, whose brains are being warped during the critical stages of development. Over a million children under 5 years old are being dosed with these mind-altering chemicals based on ridiculous ADHD or "defiance" disorders. Over ten million children under 17. Its very telling that the intelligentsia at the apex of society think that the answer to fixing our broken children is to drug them rather than to fix the broken society that they perpetuate.

[https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on- psychi...](https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychiatric- drugs/)

<comment><USER39> CCHR is Scientology. You sure you want to believe them?

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I tried exactly 14 different antidepressants, at different dosages in the last 10 years. None of them got any positive effect and I could stop without feeling anything different too, except, on some cases, very mild "brain zaps". I do not know why not any of this drugs had any (positive) effect (only some common collateral effects in some cases) but I wonder if there is a correlation between the drug doing it's work and being hard to quit...

</comment><comment><USER41> I've seen enough people in my life become addicted to antidepressants because of a traumatizing event in their life for me to have a dark outlook on it. Instead of therapy or taking real course of action to resolve the trauma/inner problem, a doctor will just label a person suffering depression. The greatest use of an umbrella-word "Depression" to get people on prescription medication and typically the problem never goes away as the problem is now just a word associated to illness one must have. A pseudo science practice at best and impossible for a trusting person to escape it. My personal opinion is that there are few people actually on the drug that are suffering "depression" without a rational life event cause.

<comment><USER15> There is no doubt that antidepressant therapy needs to be combined with psychotherapy, sports, meditation and just reducing the unhealthy parts of your life.

The cost of taking antidepressants is really low however. Most of the time, they have almost no side effects, and are proven to help [https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847](https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847) Where I live, they are pretty cheap.

I find that there is undue bias against antidepressants. If you need them, take them! They help.

<comment><USER42> I've seen cases where antidepressants saved people's lives. I've also seen cases where they were pushed on people who needed psychotherapy and not medication. Access to quality psychotherapy is unfortunately very low.

<comment><USER43> Venlaflaxine not only saved my life, but gave me a new one. It shouldn't be looked to as the only solution, however, it's one of the most powerful ones in the arsenal. This bias against anti-depressants is quite miseducated and unfortunate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> My heart and sympathy goes out to anybody who's on antidepressants and is trying to get off. From what I've seen and heard, it is just an incredibly painful and unpleasant experience, compounded by the fact that you need to be constantly negotiating with your insurance to cover the changing prescriptions as your dosage lowers. The withdrawal symptoms can be incredibly oppressive and disruptive. I wish there was more research into this, because I think it could help a lot of people.

<comment><USER45> It varies wildly by person, even moreso possibly than antidepressant efficacy.

I've been...fortunate, if you can call it that, that while I've taken a great many antidepressants and other psychiatric medications, the worst side effects I've ever faced from stopping have been screwed up sleep/wake cycles, irritability, and a few days of headache.

I've had friends and family members who have had much worse, and I've had to carefully consider it each and every time, because we lack any kind of monitoring or ways of informing us how bad it might be.

<comment><USER5> > the worst side effects I've ever faced from stopping have been screwed up > sleep/wake cycles, irritability, and a few days of headache

I wonder if that's worse than a newborn.

<comment><USER6> Much worse, something that can't be compared. Anyone would prefer a newborn which is an external person that you provide care and watch grow. Sure it will keep you up but it also provides emotions to help fuel you past those weak moments. When you are internally off where you can't sleep the affect is different.

<comment><USER5> I had a severe psychosis in my life which took approx 2 months to recover from. In the beginning, I could not sleep and felt like I was fully awake when I slept. I couldn't sleep either, though I wanted to so badly, and my emotions were virtually non-existent (the lack of self-pity was fun though). It occurred a while after I was off SSRIs (Citalopram) but not right after.

Newborn creates hormones, sure, but needs constant attention and requires high maintenance. There's no voluntary break. Ours needs to eat every 3 hrs. Can set my clock to it, and can't sleep right after feeding (she's gotta sleep first, or go through intestine pain). I know it isn't the end of the world, and given the psychosis I been through worse, but this is flat out rough [for me].

I wish I'd get positive emotions during weak moments. I mean, if I'd have that, they wouldn't be weak moments. After one hour of crying and trying to solve in every way I can think of I become desperate and feel lost. Its those moments I need to control myself and realise it isn't about me; its about her, our newborn. She's the one who's suffering, and doesn't know better. I wonder if it helps to cry with her.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Thanks to the comments here, I was able to figure out why my wife had been experiencing vertigo for the past couple weeks. She ran out of Zoloft and didn't bother taking any of her refill (we were busy moving).

Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone!

</comment><comment><USER47> I know someone who took Effexor, who went through one of the most harrowing experiences of her life trying to quit. Her doctor seemed vested in keeping her taking the drug (I personally suspect some kind of incentive to sell the drug but don't have evidence to back that up.)

I can't emphasize enough how serious these drugs are, and what a prison they can become.

<comment><USER48> You can see what pharma companies pay to your Dr. at [https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/](https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases with the downsides of withdrawals and all the other symptoms including deceased emotions in general.

There are many alternatives that have been shown to be as or more effective.

Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people.

Spending an afternoon a week outside.

Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships.

And of course, Psychedelics.

Many of you know my story of coming from schizophrenia, bipolar, anxiety, suicidal depression, mania, etc. and going on a path of returning to my self after having a vision that what was needed to was to go into the pain more fully and then seeking out various modalities to do just that.

It's possible to do, but you'll need to seek out support outside the mainstream.

<comment><USER5> > Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people.

> Spending an afternoon a week outside.

> Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships.

> And of course, Psychedelics.

Heh, a decent psychologist would suggest #3 during e.g. CBT sessions. Suggesting #4 is downright dangerous, you don't know who reads your post.

 _Readers, please seek professional help -based on conventional science- instead._

I tried all kind of self-help BS, including using psychedelics on my own, because I did not trust conventional science (ie. psychologists, psychiatrists). None of the pseudoscientific self-help BS helped, of course, and it gave me a severe lag in my life and professional career.

At the very least people should try out professional help first. But if I went on with it after the first failure (a diagnosis + meds for GAD which didn't quite work out) right afterwards, I might have figured out I have autism at my 27th instead of my 34th.

<comment><USER16> How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Data shows both can cause panic attacks and psychotic episodes...

Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don't fully yet understand, and both may cause serious side effects.

<comment><USER5> > Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don't fully yet [sic] understand, > and both may cause serious side effects.

This is an extremely narrow and arbitrary ruleset you are applying...

If not merely because of the word "fully". That's a given in science.

> How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of > antidepressants?

Because psychedelics are not approved, you don't know the source/purity, and there's a lack of professional guidance.

Yes, you can get a panic attack on SSRIs. I _had_ that when I started Fluoxetine because I almost fainted because my blood pressure was low whilst I was in a grocery store and had barely eaten. It happened a few times, though less severe (it is just low blood pressure), and went away after I got used to the drugs, which took longer than average.

SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied.

Finally, SSRIs are used under guidance by a professional. Recreational drugs, in contrast, are not.

<comment><USER16> > SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied.

The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive.

They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD.

Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs? LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous...

<comment><USER5> > The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are > literally psychoactive.

Yes, they are; I meant psychedelic/hallucinogenic.

> They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with > SSRI's as well as LSD.

Yes, but the possible side effects are well documented and users are informed and screened beforehand and there is professional guidance (by licensed professionals who studied for it) in contrast to recreational drugs use.

You know better what you dabble into when you follow the regular scientific path than the alternative path which is full with shenanigans, amateurs, wannabe experts, hippies, and downright dangerous, sick human beings.

> LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous than any of > the SSRIs.

Ultimately, this is irrelevant. You look at the current scientific evidence when you decide which treatment you want to follow. Recreational usage of LSD to self-medicate is very low on that list: actually, it shouldn't even be on that list until its scientifically tested in clinical trials. The lack of that doesn't mean we should just suggest it to random strangers; we ought not to!

> Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs?

No, stop turning it around. The burden of proof lies at you. You claim LSD is as useful or more useful than SSRIs.

<comment><USER16> I'm not turning anything around. The claim I was responding to was that suggesting the use of LSD was more dangerous or more irresponsible than suggesting the use of SSRIs.

I'll say it again: There's no evidence the use of LSD is more dangerous than SSRI's.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> "Cannot stop" is kind of strong. More like "have nasty side effects while tapering off and puss out".

Having been on the Zoloft,I can say is got a black box warning for a reason and should only be taken if you're seriously in danger of self harm.

Shrinks like it because it keeps people coming back. People like it because they're not willing to confront their real problems and want something to numb themselves out.

Just say "No!".

<comment><USER50> As someone currently on a somewhat high dose of sertraline (100mg b.d.), "numb themselves out" feels like an odd descriptor to use. That seems more like a benzodiazapine-class drug, and certainly doesn't match my experiences (it makes me more prone to insomnia, which I would not associate with a numbing agent) and wouldn't be otherwise be enjoyable/desirable but for the fact that it treats real problems (for me, OCD and anxiety disorder).

> Just say "No!"

They are probably over-prescribed, but a blanket "No!" ignores the cases where they do work, and provide a significant increase in quality of life.

<comment><USER51> Some people do get what they'd describe as emotional numbing. Think of it as a decreased range of emotion. Sertraline has a relatively higher incidence of this than other SxRI's

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> It's the other heroin. People can't get off the stuff, and it's everywhere.

In about 2012 I visited Copenhagen, capital of Denmark, which was until recently allegedly the self-reported "happiest nation on earth". I found it extremely weird that everyone was perfectly dressed and all the interiors were spotless, but nobody was smiling. It was like I had walked on to the set of some kind of dystopian movie. Mentioning this to an American woman who appeared and who had been resident there for some time, she simply laughed and leaned closer. "It's because they're all on antidepressants!"

<comment><USER53> I'm not a huge fan of anti-depressants, but this is just silly. Smiling lots is mostly a cultural difference and Americans seem to be the odd ones out there, not the other way around.

<comment><USER52> Well, it's a true story. Silly is assuming I'm American. I'm an Aussie/Kiwi/German resident in China, and at the time of the story I had just crossed over from Germany, who aren't exactly known for unbridled displays of west coast US optimism either.

<comment><USER53> Someone's personal perception of things is not a "true story". Generally, it's not anyone's place to try to assess how happy a person is from what they look like on the outside. Suicidal people may look perfectly happy on the outside, and perfectly happy people can sport very impressive RBFs.

You referenced an American in your story, and they're the only group I've ever really heard complaining about people in other countries not smiling enough, so my assumption is hardly silly. I don't know if Australia shares the same quirk, given that Australia borrows a LOT from the US culturally, are you sure you didn't pick that stuff up from the US?

And I'm not sure why the Germans didn't bother you but the Danes did, that doesn't really add up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> The use of these anti-depressants is extremely irresponsible. Most people who use them dont even have an inherant chemical problem. This will all be looked back upon as very stupid indeed.

<comment><USER55> I take Wellbutrin and Lamictal (a mood stabilizer) every single day for PTSD and I wouldn't really be able to function without them. I really wouldn't call myself or the psychiatrist who prescribed them irresponsible. I'd say it's equally irresponsible to make a blanket statement about something that does actually help people in certain circumstances.

That being said, there are a number of GPs out there who prescribe things without fully understanding the consequences. I've always had a GP refer me to a psychiatrist for any mental health issues, however.

<comment><USER56> I think the "irresponsibility" was aimed at the medical field, not at the patients. At least that was how I decided to read it.

EDIT: Also, I think that even for the patients where the cause of the depression is not "chemical" in origin, that does not reduce the severity of the illness in the slightest. It just means that the causes may lie elsewhere (for example externally). I have been depressed as an indirect result of the troubles I got myself into due to undiagnosed ADD. In my case, yes, I needed medication to treat my condition, as well as therapy. But I did not need antidepressants, I needed medication for ADHD (and I just checked: lisdexamfetamine is currently not considered an effective anti-depressant[0]).

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#Depression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#Depression)

<comment><USER55> Ah, that does make sense. I just tend to be a little on the defensive about it because often the response I get is that I'm taking the "easy" way out through medication.

<comment><USER56> > _I just tend to be a little on the defensive about it_

Completely understandable! Most people seem to have such a frustrating inability to understand that other people can have very different experiences of the world to their own, and that those experiences aren't wrong.

I am lucky enough that most of my friends _do_ understand mental illnesses a bit better than the average person out there. Some of them who confided their mental health problems with me about the kind of reaction they tend to get, and it's just amazing how ignorant the natural state of the human mind is.

> _that I'm taking the "easy" way out through medication._

Call me crazy, but I partially blame the dualist world view of the Western world for that, even if most people aren't even aware that they have been raised with a dualist mindset. This whole mind/matter division makes people think that mental problems have to be solved by thinking.

<comment><USER57> > Call me crazy, but I partially blame the dualist world view of the Western > world for that, even if most people aren't even aware that they have been > raised with a dualist mindset. This whole mind/matter division makes people > think that mental problems have to be solved by thinking.

Not crazy at all. I strongly agree with this.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Groupdate - <AUTHOR> http://ankane.github.io/groupdate/

<comment><USER2> I thought this was going to be an App for setting up / planning Group Dates, and I thought that was a really cool idea! :)

<comment><USER3> You mean this: <http://joingrouper.com> ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The words 'ruby' or 'library' aren't mentioned anywhere on the page, yet this is a ruby library.

<comment><USER5> It says that it works with Rails and the installation instructions mention 'gem'. It's obvious for the core target that it's a ruby library.

<comment><AUTHOR> I just added the Rails part :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There should be a "Show HN" RFC for submission titles. Needs "Show HN:" + [name of project] + [10 words explaining what it's about], IMO.

</comment><comment><USER7> I love that you are working to solve this problem. Grouping by date is a requirement across every project I've been involved with. Yet I find it never fails to frustrate me. Surely it could be simplified. Do professional developers share my frustration (I'm a hobbiest)?

Terrific name by the way!

</comment><comment><USER8> Looks interesting. I've been meaning to cobble something similar together for awhile as I keep running into this problem. Thankfully, now I don't have too.

Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER9> Anyone else expecting a grouper clone and got a library?</comment>


Dozens of endangered cockatoos found crammed into plastic bottles - <AUTHOR> http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/06/asia/indonesia-cockatoo-smuggling/index.html

<comment><USER2> Authorities suspect fowl play.</comment>


Open source bike comparison and review - <AUTHOR> https://bikeindex.org/blogs/introducing-bikebookio <comment><USER2> I parsed it as (open source bike) comparison and review, not as (open source)(bike comparison and review).

<comment><USER3> I did this as well and was rather disappointed with the reality.

I wonder if there are enough open source bikes for a worthwhile comparison.

<comment><USER4> What materials could we use to prototype? Cheap materials and rapid construction should probably take precedent, to ensure speedy iterations by a large number of people.

<comment><AUTHOR> Love and Richard Stallman's facial hair, just like all the best open source projects.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Looks pretty useful!

A few notes:

Each page should have a unique URL. That makes it a lot more sharable.

Different markets have different bikes. For example, the CAAD X Sora ([http://www.cannondale.com/catalog/product/view/id/31945/s/ca...](http://www.cannondale.com/catalog/product/view/id/31945/s/caadx-7-sora/category/916/) \- I'd link to it on Bike.io but I can't...) isn't available in Australia. For other manufactures we get bikes the US get - I know Cervelo had different options in Australia to the US. Edit: Another example; Giant Australia has a Revolt 1 ([http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en- au/bikes/model/revolt.1/149...](http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en- au/bikes/model/revolt.1/14904/66425/)) which you don't list.

Comparison pages need shareable URLs too - you'll get a lot of traffic from forums if people can share direct links.

In the absence of categories, showing prices next to the models would be a useful stopgap measure.

Edit 2: No way to reset the app when you want to start again.

<comment><AUTHOR> We have shareable urls now! Just added them in. just copy the link on the bottom of the bike.

Also prices. That was a good suggestion.

Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I don't think this is exactly what you're shooting for, but I'd love to see a site like [http://pcpartpicker.com/](http://pcpartpicker.com/) except for bike parts, and even if it's not what you're going for, they might have some interesting features or ways of doing comparisons that you could use.

I recently used it to configure a pc, and it was a pretty awesome and smooth experience nabbing parts, and figuring out the best place to buy them online/locally. Saved me around $200 or so on my build over the lazy way I used to do it, which is just buy on newegg.

Whenever I build a bike, I go with a frame, and then buy all my own components. An easy way to summarize components, find new ones, compare weight, reviews, etc, and save parts I have to know what I don't have to buy at a glance, etc. would be killer.

</comment><comment><USER7> This is interesting. BikePedia is the site I'd currently go to for stuff like this. And at least for the bikes I have direct knowledge of, BikePedia has more of the bikes and fewer errors. For example, in 2005 we have the Trek 2100 WSD which you say has 700/650x25c tires (correct) but 650b wheels (incorrect). The 1500 WSD in the same year lists 700x25c tires only, despite that the smallest versions came with 650x25c instead--a critical distinction. And the derailleur specs are wrong too (BikePedia has the right ones).

I'd contribute corrections if it were right there on the page like Wikipedia, but probably not if I have to go dig for something to edit in GitHub. And I'm less motivated to contribute to a project which for some reason has worse initial data than the existing sites. I wonder where the errors came from.

Similarly, does the site simply rely on people adding whatever bikes they feel like? It seems odd that Detroit Bikes is a listed manufacturer but LeMond is not. LeMond was a fairly significant brand until a few years ago, and there are lots of used ones on the market--unlike Detroit Bikes which I imagine most people have never seen before.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, but bikepedia is ugly and isn't useable on mobile. It also, most importantly, doesn't have an API.

We actually asked bikepedia multiple times if they had an API, or if we could help build one and were told they weren't interested. So we built a prettier, more useable, open source solution. The kinks will work themselves out.

<comment><USER7> Respectfully, your site is not as usable as BikePedia on a laptop computer. Here are some suggestions:

Let me change the model year without having to select the model again. BikePedia has quick links for this, so I know right away what other years there are.

Have the comparison tool default to something smart, such as the same year and manufacturer, rather than starting the second bike totally blank.

Add some sort of filtering to help people find bikes they might want ("about three years old, MTB, Shimano XT or similar").

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Horray! This is an idea I had a few months ago, threw around in my head, and realized it's something I'd never have time to build.

I'm thrilled that you have!

For those of you who aren't super-familiar with the agonizing process of choosing the proper bike, I'll try to clue you in.

Say you wanted to buy a Full-suspension 29'er from a well-known manufacturer for about $2,900. You'd narrowed your choices down to the Giant Anthem X 29er, Trek Fuel EX 8 29er and Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Comp 29er.

At this point, if you wanted to know which option gave you the best value in terms of components, you'd have to obsessively comb over the manufacturer's sites, and (if you're like me) possibly build your own spreadsheet that listed every "important" component from the bikes you were considering.

Now, you can just go to [http://bikebook.io/](http://bikebook.io/), select the models you're considering, and look at features side-by-side.

Then, quite honestly, you should just ride them all and pick the one you like the most based on how it feels, but that's beside the point.

\---

A couple suggestions:

* When comparing models, I think that a table-view with individual features lined up would be more useful than the current comparison view. That way I could quickly scan between models.

* I noticed some areas that could benefit from increased granularity. For example, right now if I look at the "Trek Fuel EX 29" I see that it has a single field for "Rear Suspension" that reads: "Fox Evolution Series Float w/DRCV, CTD (climb-trail-descend) damper, rebound, tuned by Trek in California, 7.25x1.875"" \- That's nice, but I think it would be more helpful (especially when comparing to other bikes) if that data were split up into something like:

 __Rear Suspension - Travel: 184mm

 __Rear Suspension - Manufacturer: Fox

 __Rear Suspension - Model: Evolution Series Float

 __Rear Suspension - Features: DRCV, CTD (climb-trail-descend) damper, rebound, tuned by Trek in California.

That way, I could quickly scan across the comparison page and realize that if I chose the Trek over the Specialized, I'd be leaving a full 11 mm of travel on the table?! OMG, how could I even consider such a thing?! I feel like such a fool.

But seriously, this is wonderful. Spec-obsessed bike nuts everywhere owe you a debt of gratitude.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you thank you thank you! We're excited about it too and pumped that you see how useful it is.

We're definitely working on parsing things better, and I agree, tabular view might be beneficial. We'll work on making it a pretty table.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR>
          ~~O
        -  /\,
       -  -|~(*)
      -  (*)

     ^</comment><comment>--

</comment><comment><USER9> Great idea. Unfortunately, I believe that you've shared it too early. I poked around and found little except some image scrapping and possibly a link. I also think the idea of qualitative reviews or even ranked reviews could help tremendously. I love it on Amazon when people do their own product comparisons and post the results. Right now I feel like it stays to close the manufacturer catalog information. A great version of this would give good push back on that data with customer reviews and responses. Good luck with it. Show us again in a couple of months when it's nicely populated.

</comment><comment><USER10> Sadly, the data seems rather shallow. Look at the output from one of the example API requests:

[http://bikebook.io/?manufacturer=fuji&year=2014&frame_model=...](http://bikebook.io/?manufacturer=fuji&year=2014&frame_model=Outland%2029%201.1)

They have somewhat seperated the data into component groups, but individual parts are not identified, so I can't search for all bikes with a specific brake lever or tire of certain size, since its all just unprocessed raw strings.

<comment><AUTHOR> Definitely something we're working on. We got the data in raw strings, if you have ideas for how to parse stuff, contact me, seth at bikeindex.org

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> It is pretty good you have lots of brands already in your database, however the comparison UI is not much helpful. e.g. an end-user of bikes might not understand what 105, Tiagra, Ultrega means and just showing specs is not enough IMO. How about you also compare components one by one in rows of a table for each bike and then greens/reds tell us which one is better?

<comment><USER12> It's not always so easy to say which component is better than the other. A good example are Shimano systems: if you compare Ultegra with Dura-ace, depending on your use, either one of them can be the better choice.

For people like myself, this is quite useful service. It would be even better to quickly find similar bikes in the same price range and compare them together.

And please, add Rose bikes to the database...

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Looks interesting.

Do you consider selecting by bike category (e.g. I don't know all makes and models but say I'd like to narrow my search to just folding bikes or hybrid (cross, Wheel size 700c) bikes?)

Do you accept suggestions to expand the list of brands? I would like to see Author [http://www.author.eu/en/](http://www.author.eu/en/)

<comment><AUTHOR> We're prioritizing brands based roughly on the number of bikes registered on the Bike Index from that brand. So register more Author bikes and it'll happen.

And yes, category search would be nice. It's something we'll work on.

<comment><USER13> I guess most of your users are US based and this is... more a European brand maybe? I don't know, I live in Russia and it's quite popular over here. I guess it's a decent budget-minded brand, though many people (who ride cheapo bikes) consider it overpriced.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> The content is not licensed creative commons. The code to the actual site is not open source, only the code to use the API. I would not call this an open source project or a major win. A major win would be a uniformly licensed content base that is CC-BY and they provide data dumps.

It is a slight improvement over bikepedia but not by much.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ummmm? What? Yeah, Everything is open source and is in the repo. ALL THE DATA IS IN THE REPOSITORY. The repository is deployed, as is, to the internet, it has no database - the data is in the bike_data folder.

You can view the code here, [https://github.com/bikeindex/bikebook](https://github.com/bikeindex/bikebook) at the same place the link in the BikeBook footer goes.

It is AGPL, so not creative commons. This is the license the Bike Index is under, so we just went with it. We'll consider a different license for the BikeBook, because maybe that makes more sense. Thanks for bringing it up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> A good idea, especially with its open API, but I can't see any reviews or how to add them. Am I missing something?

<comment><USER16> I think this is for "just the facts." You would use this data on your own review site.

<comment><USER15> Thanks. Maybe they should change the title/tagline as it's a bit misleading.

<comment><AUTHOR> Done. It's now "open source bicycle comparison and research"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I love this! I am a programmer by week and bicycle shop owner on the weekend. I build the website, point of sale and app for the shop while my partner runs most of the day to day. I would love to use the API to pull in relevant bicycles to the website and app for the shop.

<comment><AUTHOR> Great! Sending you an invitation to register bikes on the Index through Chuck's Bikes too.

<comment><USER17> Thx! Just signed up. Chuck's Bicycle Repair will support you guys however we can.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Will there be an option to choose a colour for your bike shed? If so, how will they make it happen?

</comment><comment><USER19> I am making a sports training system and this will be a great way to embellish the data for the bikes people enter in. I am 100% going to give this a try. I am also willing to share back the bike models that people put into my system that are not in yours.

</comment><comment><USER20> Is there any plan on adding data for size/geometry? (arguably one of the most important things to look at when comparing bikes)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Cool idea.

Would love to see frame weights added, along with complete bike weights.

Not seeing Raleigh, Focus, and a bunch of other brands listed. Will more be added?

<comment><AUTHOR> Absolutely more will be added.

And any listing of bike weight is bullshit. You have to find the bike and weight it, because manufacturers weigh different things (and different sizes). So we won't be adding that.

<comment><USER13> Yes; the weight seems to have become so speculative that many brands boycott stating it in the specs at all. In fact, I don't know of any brand other than Author who states weight. I kinda look at it, to compare between different Author models, but that's all I can do with it; I'm not sure if it would be fair to compare weight between models because every company weighs differently and there's some unfair speculation seemingly going on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> This is awesome and could be very useful. Can't wait for more data. No Dahon yet on the database.

</comment><comment><USER23> Do the bike companies have API's as well or how'd you manage to get the data?

</comment><comment><USER24> This is relevant to my interests. :) Is there/will there be a data dump?

<comment><USER25> There's an API from which, as far as I can tell, it is easy to make the dump. The data also seems to be on GitHub: [https://github.com/bikeindex/bikebook/tree/master/bike_data](https://github.com/bikeindex/bikebook/tree/master/bike_data)

<comment><USER26> So the only way to contribute more information is via pull request? That requirement excludes the vast majority of the kinds of people who would be willing to contribute more bike information (namely, people who ride bikes, work in bike shops, etc.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, we're considering ways to make it editable via web interface of some kind, but for now - hey, all the data is online and it's accessible and editable enough.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


How airbnb lost me as a customer - <AUTHOR> I don't have a blog where this story would be appropriate, but since I know airbnb founders/investors read HN, I figure my story might be valuable to them.  This is how my first experience with airbnb is also going to be my last.
I recently rented out my apartment for a 2 week stay.  With my nearly $3,000 payment being held by airbnb, I received an email asking me to "send in a scanned copy of your government issued ID and a copy of a utility bill".  No form to do so, just the vague "send".  I'm not really comfortable sending as much personal info as my drivers license contains (height, weight, eye color, DL number, photo) especially over unencrypted email, and when this requirement wasn't mentioned before listing my space.
Here is where they lose me as a customer though- I snapped a photo of a utility bill and responded to their email.  Two days go by, my payment is still 'pending' now several days after the guest has arrived.  I send a second email inquiring if the photo was ok (I don't have a scanner handy) and why they still haven't paid me, and get no response.  More days go by with airbnb holding my payment, and I try to use their live chat.  Live chat fails silently in firefox (clicking the button does nothing).  I try in chrome and it tells me everyone is busy.  Try again later and it opens a window... then 30 seconds later tells me everyone is busy and to email my request.
Finally, now 9 days after my guest arrived, I receive another email from airbnb which ignores all my previous messages and tells me to once again "send" them scans of gov't id and utility bill.  Apparently my only option to get them to release my funds is to send highly personal information over unencrypted email, a requirement which was never made clear when I made my listing.
Airbnb seems like a great idea with an ideal set of founders and backers, but unexpected requirements and terrible customer support have turned me off their site. <comment><USER3> It sounds like their customer support failed you. Whatever tool they were using to track your email thread failed or someone acted too hastily and responded to the thread inappropriately by asking for the same information. You are right they made a mistake in sending you two emails and it is annoying they are holding your money.

I have no inside information about Airbnb, but I'd guess they are slowing moving the money to try and prevent fraud on their system. Basically, A stolen card being used for a high value amount. Obviously that is annoying to anyone who is waiting for money, but I've seen it happen in many situations where money is transfered.

Are you a frequent hoster? If you have a lot of money coming in for your apartment, it is much more likely that it would be transfered quickly.

If you are a frequent hoster, is this a unusually large amount at once? Or is it from someone who is using Airbnb for the first time?

In the end, it sounds like your experience wasn't so great. But I'd hope you remember that it is just people on the other end answering your email and trying to prevent fraud. Many of those people answer hundreds of emails a day and probably make mistakes as often as anyone else. I hope everything works out for you.

</comment><comment><USER4> Look at it from the other side of things: how would you react if AirBnB _weren't_ doing these checks?

If I'm staying somewhere, I'm leaving my luggage, and there's plenty of opportunities for stuff to go missing, whether in the middle night or otherwise.

That's just the petty crime aspect, leaving aside other opportunities for much more serious badness.

It's bad that their customer service failed you, but I'd much rather there was a tiny bit of hassle for people renting out apartments for the safety of those staying there.

<comment><USER5> Heaven forbid they spend 10 dollars on a php upload script on SSL for this kind of information as opposed to "Scan you social security card and send it to email@example.com!"

<comment><USER6> Pedantic note: I'm not excusing them for lacking something as critical as a secure way to transmit sensitive information, but it's certainly more involved than "ten dollars worth of PHP."

You're probably looking at setting up a dedicated server to store the images (since you want the server locked down tighter than a normal web server, and you need to think about having different backups in place, etc) and then have one of the engineers spend a few days developing a system to upload the images and allow secured access to their support staff. Sure, writing the code to upload files is easy, but the security and UI take a good bit of effort. You're probably looking closer to $1k excluding the cost of hardware and the SSL cert.

<comment><USER5> Whoa $1K? I think I just spent that on hats for my dog last quarter. Seriously, there is NO EXCUSE FOR THIS.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If anything, I'm surprised they allowed you to rent out your place without that verification in hand. There is enough possible legal/liability quandaries around the idea of AirBnB that is seems risky to sanction the rental of a place without confirmation of the owner's identity.

</comment><comment><USER8> (1) You refer to your "apartment", which by convention refers to a domicile that you are leasing. While other HN readers will contest this point, I'd be willing to put money on the fact that you violated your lease by renting out your apartment on Airbnb at all.

(2) HN is not a forum for complaints about YC companies, and while I didn't flag this post, you shouldn't overreact if it is killed. Nobody is trying to censor you; if it happens, just move your post to Tumblr.

<comment><AUTHOR> Your comments always make me smile Thomas, you seem like the real life embodiment of the "Lawful Neutral" alignment, always following the letter of each rule. My lease allows subletting, but there may be a provision which I'm not following, I can double check.

If this post gets killed, that's fine. I was hesitant to write it, but I thought it might be valuable to share. There's a fine line between useful critique or sharing an experience and ranting/complaining, perhaps my post leaned too far to the latter.

<comment><USER9> >Your comments always make me smile Thomas, you seem like the real life embodiment of the "Lawful Neutral" alignment

I've been trying to think of a good label for him for a long time, and I think that hits it on the nose.

<comment><USER8> I always kind of thought of myself as Neutral Good. I'm not a believer in rules for their own sake, but the good that comes from ignoring a rule should outweigh the harm incurred by surreptitiously changing the rules on everyone else. The most pernicious harms caused by breaking rules are the ones that aren't obvious, but rather confer an advantage to the parties that broke the rule that the rest of society can't easily detect, until those unscrupulous first movers have managed to roll the advantage up into a competitive moat.

I'm only commenting because I think it's interesting to think about why we think the things we do. I think it's a weird that anyone would want to fit an AD&D alignment onto me. :)

<comment><USER9> I can tell you why: You're clearly a (very) net positive contributor, however "strident" is a predictable default for any post of yours that's overly anything, combined with writing in a classical style.

Why people are trying to label you is you're hard to characterize yet are notably present.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> It's too late for me to edit my original post now, but for posterity - <USER2> contacted me and resolved the issue. The final customer service rep I spoke to was friendly and helpful, and they refunded the 3% listing/service fee as amends for the slow support.

</comment><comment><USER10> It's amazing what some companies ask you to send via email. The inherent trust people put in email systems is honestly scary. envex seems not worried if someone has their eye color or height. I can promise you every bit of information someone can obtain on you IS useful.

Dear AirBnB,

Sending utility bills and drivers licenses over email is NOT appropriate!!!

This makes me want to pentest AirBnB and find their vulnerabilities before someone evil does....

<comment><USER11> > It's amazing what some companies ask you to send via email.

My state allows people to cast ballots via email.

During the hearing, some retired National Guard General testified that "security has gotten really good". I assume he's on the payroll of the vendor, but I didn't bother to check (this time).

</comment></comment><comment> k-mcgrady Although AirBnB customer service was bad here it seems you also were at fault. They asked for two documents. You didn't want to send one of them over email (understandable). At that point you should have cancelled the rental. Hoping they would get back to you and waive a requirement wasn't a good idea.

Not sure HackerNews is the right place for this. Emailing AirBnb's customer service/complaints department would be better.

</comment><comment><USER12> As one of many start-up peeps here on HN we've very sorry you had to jump through those hurdles. Your post is on the main page and is certain to get the right attention quickly.

For the rest of us, the only responses required is someone who knows ABNB lets us know they contacted them, and then ABNB following up here with an apology to the user & HN.

Don't talk on and on about it. Just fix it.

</comment><comment><USER13> Are you really worried that they'll have your height and eye color?

You've already let a "stranger" into your house, but these details to too sacred?

Just take photos off all and black out any info you don't think is appropriate.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's more the principle of requiring additional information after a reservation has been booked instead of being up-front about it, and sending it over unencrypted email.

The biggest issue is that I responded to their original email within 24 hours, but have now waited 10 days without resolution or any feedback.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> > _and a copy of a utility bill_

What a dumbass requirement. As if somebody with access to a printer would not be able to produce one.

<comment><USER15> I have seen people photoshop utility bills, proof of insurance, etc.

Requirements like this are hilarious.

<comment><USER16> except that if you are caught, it is a federal offense at least in the US to forge things such as utility bills etc. It is more of a deterrent than anything else against outright fraud.

<comment><USER15> Citation?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Airbnb should have a phone number that people who are renting out their homes can call 24/7 for help, advice etc. If they do have this why didn't the author use it?

</comment><comment><USER18> You're essentially acting as a hotel business. I'm not sure you can do that with the level of anonymity you require to a legal corp like airbnb to remain legit. You may have unreasonable expectations. Try something even more underground next time I guess. There probably isn't anything they can do.

But yeah, I suppose listing it more clearly would have been nice :) (and better communication, something most tech startups need to learn to scale)

<comment><AUTHOR> It's not about anonymity - they have a verified phone number and email address, they have my address and name. My payment is in the form of a check sent to the address being rented, paid to the name on the account. When I created the account, if they had said "We need a credit card number to confirm your identity" or "Use this secure form to submit a copy of utility bill" I would have gladly complied.

Asking me to send them over email after a reservation is much more frustrating. Not responding for two weeks when I do email them a photo of utility bill is more frustrating still.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I think you were right to avoid sending that info because that's an identity thief's gold mine. On the other hand, I wonder how many times airbnb has been scammed. Hopefully this is some kind of knee-jerk reaction to problems they are having and not just an unprovoked screw up.

</comment><comment><USER20> I'm a little shocked that you overcame all of the other concerns of using AirBNB but balked at a failed firefox plugin. I'm sure there's a logical explanation and probably a little bit of mismanagement on behalf of AirBNB, but that's something that can be corrected.

</comment><comment><USER21> i would not want to send my photo id over the internet either, they should announce before any transaction has taken place that this is a requirement

</comment><comment><USER22> Isn't there a telephone number? any business dealing in multiple Nxthousands of dollars should have a telephone-help-line. There's no excuse for that (confirmed customer, confirmed booking = $3,000 deal | vs x Prob (1/n)x$15/hr service rep?). Assuming there is someone on the other line available, scan a photo, layer, lock it in a psd or pdf (ie, add further security as appropriate)...send it to them, provide password over the phone, to make it visible, etc).

</comment><comment><USER23> I think this raises another point... shouldn't email be a secure method of communication? Do you think its time for mail servers to start supporting encryption as a default?

</comment><comment><USER24> Small claims court.

</comment><comment><USER25> This would be why the ycombinator startup churner is bad. It is entirely focused on having people with no technical skills create companies that rely very heavily on a solid technical foundation. My 8 year old knows not to send sensitive information over unencrypted channels, and that email is completely insecure. Why are people who don't know this making sites like airbnb?

<comment><USER26> It's not that they can't; it's that they don't care. Airbnb has a great engineering team who could definitely setup a more secure way to do this.

The issue is that they only do things that will make them money. Until a lot of customers complain and hurts customer acquisition or revenues, they're not going to change it.

This is exactly the MVP / "lean startup" approach: do the absolute minimum. It's a smart way to deploy capital. But customers of these kinds of companies should be careful but they're usually complete products (by design) and may have sharp corners.

I normally stay away from buying anything from startups for this reason.

<comment><USER25> By definition they can not possibly be a great engineering team if they demonstrate that they are completely and totally incompetent like this. "I don't care about doing important things correctly" is a statement of incompetence.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Heaven forbid someone learns your highly secretive height, weight, eye color and DL license number which is completely meaningless.

They communication does appear to suck, but your paranoia is unfounded.

</comment><comment><USER28> Maybe quit being a little bitch and send them your info? The fuck are they gonna do with your eye color and height?

</comment><comment><USER29> Wait, are you sure it's airbnb and not citimortgage?</comment>


A good number of developers at the University of Arizona make less than $50k - <AUTHOR> http://www.wildcat.arizona.edu/article/2015/03/large-discrepancies-between-university-of-arizona-faculty-pay

<comment><AUTHOR> Came across this in my Arizona section of Google news. Really this is more about the linked Google spreadsheet than the article.

Among other things you can find jobs with titles like "Web Site Designer/Developer, Senior" getting paid $41k.

Seems weird.

<comment><USER2> turned down a job there after I left GCU for that very reason... insanely low compared to market</comment></comment>


Show HN: Adult Cat Finder - <AUTHOR> http://adultcatfinder.com/# <comment><USER2> I was actually expecting a cat adoption site. What a let down. Perhaps it's not too late to steer the ship in a different direction, yet ;)?

<comment><USER3> I was expecting the same thing. Then I got curious whether someone did something like this for pet adoption sites. Turns out that someone has <http://www.petfinder.com/developers/api-key>

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> You're missing the 'Cats in <name of city> are waiting for you!', with the name of a city ~800km from where you are.

<comment><USER5> "Cats in TOR EXIT NODE are waiting for you!"

"Cats in BOEING EARTH STATION are waiting for you!"

<comment><USER6> I usually get "Cats in US-East-1 are waiting for you!"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is amazing. This would be even more amazing if you coded in responses to certain words.

Have it parse entered strings and if they mention the word Tuna have a picture of a cat licking it's lips.

Dog = Cat running away

Etc.

Great job.

</comment><comment><USER8> Bug: After opening the chat window once and closing it, clicking the "Try it out" button a second time doesn't work.

Do I have to subscribe in order to use it again?

<comment><AUTHOR> Just a bug in our site's JS. Working on fixing it up! In the meantime, a refresh will do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I wish I could find shaved cats using this service.

</comment><comment><USER10> I'm being completely honest when I say my first thought upon reading the name was "Adult Friend Finder".

Why did you choose a name so close to that?

<comment><USER11> I assume because that is what it was based off of. Click 'try' -- it opens up a 'cam' of a cat, with a fake chat.

It's _specifically_ modeled after AFF.

<comment><USER10> Ah....I see now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Meowtiful. Just Purrrfect.

</comment><comment><USER13> Best hacker news app all year, even better than harlem shaker thing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Hysterical. I knew what was coming, but it still beat expectations.

</comment><comment><USER15> Can't wait to see this with more cats and reaction to keywords: ruff, bark, bowwow, dog will cause the cat to flee away.

</comment><comment><USER16> This goes up there on the short list of Show HN sites that I share with friends that would get the joke. Well done!

</comment><comment><USER17> Are the cats bored ?

<comment><USER18> REAL bored cats in your area want so desperately to meet YOU!

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Thank you so much for making this, it's hysterical!

</comment><comment><USER20> good laugh</comment>