200 students cheat on senior midterm exam, many blame professor - <AUTHOR> http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/11/17/cheating <comment><USER6> _Some students have blamed Quinn, accusing him of misleading them and being lazy. They posted clips from the first class's lecture, in which Quinn can be seen telling his students that he is responsible for creating the test. The students have tried to use this statement to justify their acts; since Quinn told them he would be writing the exam, they did not think the prefab version they were using to study would be used. "After seeing that, it was safe for us to assume that having it online, having it e-mailed to you, whatever it was, wasn't the test," one student told the Associated Press. "No student knew that was the test, and that's what we continue to say over and over." The university has rejected that argument. "Let's be sure to keep the focus where it belongs," Heston told the Orlando Sentinel. "Not on the instructor who administered the test but on those students who chose to acquire the test beforehand and use it inappropriately."_

If that I understand that correctly - the professor used pre-fab questions from the publisher - then I have difficulty putting any blame on the students. That material is not a secret. It does not require subterfuge to gain access to the teacher version of textbooks. If you pull all of your test questions from such a database, then you are vulnerable to this.

I have taught one course as an instructor. I made my own test from scratch. The same is true for all of the classes I have TAed. Our department has a stated policy that using prior exams to study is fair game.

I took a stats class where our final consisted of questions from the book - and we knew this. I was going through the book while studying, saw a question and thought "That looks like one he'd ask us." and I figure the problem out. That exact same question was on the test. Unless there's some fundamental fact I'm missing, I consider that a similar enough situation to treat them the same.

<comment><USER7> The blame isn't for studying the old test. It's for not letting the instructor know they had seen the exam already. That's when their behavior crossed an ethical line.

The instructor isn't blameless here - he both misrepresented his creation of the tests, as well as was lazy and pulled questions from his test bank. But the students should have let him know that they had acquired the test ahead of time.

Nobody came out of this looking good.

<comment><USER8> this. Why isn't this 100% clear to anyone with a brain?

<comment><USER9> Because it's a slippery slope. What other information sources do students need to disclose? Is it fair for a student with access to another student that already took the class to ask him questions? Should that be disclosed to the professor or taken into account during grading?

<comment><USER10> "Slippery slope," in a sense, only really applies when the slope is steep enough that its slipperiness matters. In particular, there is an obvious difference between "I've discussed problems like this with someone who knows the material" and "I've studied exactly these questions and their answers for the last week."

In the former case, having discussed the material, one is still required to apply one's knowledge in order to produce correct answers on a test. In the latter, one need only reproduce from memory answers one doesn't (necessarily) understand.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This has happened to me three (3) times in my life.

First of all, there is nothing wrong with using old tests to study. This is an acceptable practice, and, at SFU, our Computing Science/Math Student Societies had a Filing Cabinet of old tests that we could photocopy to study from.

The first time this happened to me, it was Physics 12, 100 Mile House - <USER2> of the students had siblings who had taken physics from the instructor. We got the test ahead of time. Took the test - which was identical to one from years gone past. Did well in the test. Teacher Found out, got pissed off with us - <USER3> felt like crap.

I ran into this precise situation in my Second Year Data Structures class in '88 in Coquitlam College - there were about 120 students, and we were studying from old test. Only problem is the instructor had used the exact same test at BCIT (another technical college) a week earlier, and so we had a copy of it (unbeknownst to us) - We started taking the test - I realized by question number 2 that I had seen this test, and stood up and approached the instructor letting him know that I had already seen this (I had learned my lesson from High School) - Ironically, he asked me to just try my best, and seemed to hope that I hadn't memorized all the answers. He later asked me to become his Teaching Assistant and Lab Instructor. Honesty pays off. :-)

The final time was at SFU, the instructor had accidentally printed out her new test for students to study from - I picked them up, saw the date, and immediately told her _before_ we took the test. That time she just re-wrote the test and we took it a week later. Once again - zero doubt on how to handle the situation. (Clearly, my high school "cheating" experience was had been a formative experience.)

Net-Net - The cheating is NOT in studying from old tests, it's from realizing you've already seen the test and not letting the instructor know. I didn't realize this when I was in High School, but had matured enough ethically that by 2nd year of college to not even consider taking the test without telling the instructor I had seen the questions.

I think it says very, very sad things about students these days that not ONE of the the 200 had the moral fiber to stand up and say "Hey - I've seen this exam already."

<comment><USER11> These students (or their parents) are paying UCF to provide them with this education and then to certify their education with a diploma.

The responsibility does not fall to the students to inform a professor that due to his own laziness they, through entirely moral and acceptable means, had already studied these exact questions.It's not a student's responsibility to tell the professor how to do his job.

He failed his students. Period. Calling it anything else is putting frosting on dogshit.

Moral fiber plays no role here. They didn't stay silent as some unspeakable wrong occurred. They studied a publicly available guide. It comes down to this. Is it the students' responsibility to inform a professor every single time they see a test question that they recognize or is it the professors responsibility to prepare a proper test of their knowledge?

<comment><USER12> If you review the footage of the professor confronting the students, you will realize that this was not a publicly available test guide. This was a pool of test questions based on the material in their books intended only for the teachers of the courses to create the tests, not the students to study from.

They obtained the test blank using, at best, morally questionable methods (social engineering, purchasing them under false pretenses, etc). At worst, they stole the materials outright.

If they had used information that was legitimately publicly available, I would agree with you. However, they did not, so it was morally reprehensible.

<comment><USER11> hmm, now this is new information that in my quick reading i missed.

though even with this i would side with what sph said below. The fact that 200 students (and not something like 10) got the guide tells me the original act wasn't one intending to "cheat" so much as study extra material.

the professor told the students he made their tests, so there was nothing that should have lead them to believe these extra questions would be on the test.

does it make their act a little more morally gray? yes. does it constitute as cheating? no.

<comment><USER12> My sister-in-law teaches English in South Korea, where grades are even more important than they are here to a child's future, and cheating has even graver consequences (entire college career, and thus their future in knowledge jobs are gone).

Yet, they still cheat.

Perhaps I'm just being pessimistic, but I don't believe that 200+ students believed they just had study material. I believe they knew they were cheating; else you would have had at least 1 of the 200 step forth and say "You know, this is identical to the study material I received from my friends...". Even the person who did eventually clue in the professor did so anonymously by dropping the complete test script in his office.

Of course, blaming this on the professor seems overly optimistic about the state of mind of those 200 students.

Either way, I would not want one of those 200 students working for me. If they don't have the moral fortitude to admit that something is wrong on a test in college... I can't imagine what they could do to a company where moral standards are core to a companies very survival; such as a company which handles customer credit data where a single leak of customer data can sink the company.

<comment><USER11> Wait, so are you claiming that upon receiving the study material these kids had to have known they were cheating? Or they knew they were cheating upon receiving the test?

Because the former is preposterous. It was a pre-fab "teachers" test from their textbook publisher. It sounds like the perfect thing to take the night before the real test to see what you may need to look over one more time.

The latter is less preposterous, but still in the wrong mind. Is it the student's job to disclose what they studied? Frankly as long as they didn't actively steal their professors test I don't see how they can be put at fault. They studied hard, studying extra material, and got lucky when their professor decided to forgo doing his job and mailed-in the creation of his test. So now it's their fault for not telling the professor "hey it seems you copied someone else's work"?

These sound like regular college students in a 600 person business class just trying to graduate. They're not the morally bankrupt scourge of the earth, and your damning evidence against their employability (or apparent lack thereof) is based on them not coming forth because of a study guide?

<comment><USER7> mccon104 - your thinking regarding what my response should have been when I "Got Lucky" and discovered I had seen the test ahead of time, is pretty much what mine was when I was in Grade 12. I was wrong. The ethically correct response is to let an instructor know if you've already seen an exam that has been just handed to you. At that point, the only person in the wrong is the instructor who was too lazy to create a test that would have been new for their students.

Note - it's one thing for a high-school student to screw up (as I did) - <USER4> can only hope that the teacher calls them on it, and they learn from their experience (as I like to believe I did). What's a little disconcerting here is that these were Senior Level college students, who one would hope would have at least a _few_ people who would have stood up and said "Hey - I've seen this before."

<comment><USER13> I wouldn't have stood up and said that, unless the tests were identical (i.e., questions were in the same order, with the same pagination, same ordering of the multiple choice answers, etc.). Even if some questions were identical, if I had not endured an experience like yours, there is nothing about the situation that would suggest to me that what was happening was ethically murky.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> If the professor indeed claimed authorship of the test before giving it to the students, why shouldn't they use that test bank to study? If the professor didn't write it, the test bank is just _similar_ questions which should be excellent practice for the test.

If he didn't this is just further lying from cheaters, but that sounds exactly like something many a professor would claim casually in a class.

If he did say he wrote the test, then all of this is a professor playing cover his ass after telling students he's writing a test when really he was just test bank spelunking.

<comment><USER15> It would also be plagiarism if the professor claimed authorship of a test which he did not write.

<comment><USER14> That's not really as clear cut. The testbank is designed to be used by instructors to create tests and quizes, without attribution.

Plagiarism is a hefty charge in academia, and likely doesn't fit this situation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I suggest a replacement headline:

400 students cheated by school, pay tuition in order to sit in on 600-person classes and memorize hundreds of individual facts by rote, obtain increasingly worthless degrees.

(In all seriousness, this is cheating, but half of all students "study" like this all the way throughout high school and college, and most teachers couldn't give a shit, so I don't see why anyone is freaking out now.)

<comment><USER17> _but half of all students "study" like this all the way throughout high school and college_

If the students decided to study like this, they weren't cheated by the school, just by themselves.

<comment><USER18> Sometimes the students have no choice when studying for tests. Most tests in school aren't testing your knowledge, but rather your ability to regurgitate the lecturer's notes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> The sadness to me is the implication that students should restrict themselves to learning solely from official class materials. The idea that students might actually be trying to master the material doesn't even come up in the article as an afterthought. Instead it seems to assume that their only possible goal is to pass the test, and focuses on whether the approach was legitimate.

Throughout college, I would always find at least one alternate text book for the courses I was taking. I'd frequently seek out Teacher's Editions, not hoping to cheat on the exams, but hoping to better understand the material. When assigned an abridged edition, I'd go out of my way to find the unabridged (usually from a library) to see what was omitted and why.

I continue to hope that at least a few of those students had the same impulse: here's another source from which to learn. But perhaps I'm being unrealistic. I left without a degree after 3 years at a really good school, in part because of comments from professors such as "Please read the edition I assigned --- I chose the abridged text for a reason". The reason itself was never stated.

<comment><USER20> Right. Students, teachers, parents, and bystanders all seem to have the problem of forgetting that the purpose of education is to become educated. Getting a degree is not the point. Getting grades is not the point. Learning is the point.

The only reason to give tests is to gauge how much students have learned so this information can be passed on (to the students so they can tell if they're doing well, to employers so they know if the student knows the material). Tests have no inherent value. If there is a better way to tell if students are learning (and I'd wager that there usually is), no test should be given at all.

I almost never studied in college (because I figured that if I hadn't learned the material by test time, cramming wouldn't help), and I didn't care about my grades (a professor once forgot to bring the graded tests to class and said we could come by his office to get our grades; I told him I didn't care what my grade was, and he was shocked). I cared whether I was doing well or not, and generally I could judge that for myself. When I did get bad grades (which was rare because I took my education very seriously), I either knew why already or was quickly made aware of something I didn't know but needed to know. The most helpful grade I ever got was a D on my first English paper. It's the lowest grade I've ever gotten in my life, but by showing me what I did wrong, the professor helped me improve my writing so that I never got a bad grade on an essay again.

All that said, the test needs to be given again. Some students who got the test could have been using it to study, some could have been using it to memorize answers. Students memorizing answers don't deserve good grades, so the test should be designed to fail them. Students using the test to study weren't cheating, but there's no way to tell that they weren't cheating without testing them again to see if they still do well. In order to keep _their_ grades meaningful, they should be tested again. For an A to mean anything, there has to be the possibility of an F. If students who weren't learning anything were able to get A's, then there's a problem.

<comment><USER21> Since few, if any, of the students actually knew this was a copy of the test, how could they be "using it to memorize answers"? They had no reason to expect the problems/answers to be the same on the real exam.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I always thought that teachers who reused tests year over year or used pre- made tests from the textbook publisher are just not doing their job...

I strongly believe that tests should be unique from year to year, calibrated to what has been taught in class, made hard enough that very few can answer all questions, have no multiple choice questions as they usually just rely on rote memory and be made in such a way that taking the test open book doesn't influence the result of the students (that's mostly for engineering...)

The problem I found when I was a student (and it was much more acute in the US when I was an exchange student at RIT) is that some test instead of measuring if the students understood the materials and was able to use critically, would only test for rote memorization and be worded such that students who have learned the content of the course of by heart without understanding it could still pass...

But later in life, pure rote memorization is useless, understanding the different subjects and being able to apply the knowledge gained during one's studies is what matters...

<comment><USER23> Writing bad test questions is easy. Writing _good_ test questions is exceedingly hard, and very time-consuming.

I'm not taking sides, I'm just saying...

<comment><USER22> Yes of course it's not easy but it's the job of a teacher... And, in that case, the teacher didn't even make the effort to design test questions; he took the easy way out and didn't do his job...

Of course, the problem too is that too often teachers are researchers foremost and for them teaching is a requirement that they'd love to get rid of... I'm not sure how to solve that, because I do think that in a lot of cases it's good that university teachers contribute to research...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> "What is clear is that some students gained access to a bank of tests that was maintained by the publisher of the textbook that Quinn used. They distributed the test to hundreds of their fellow students, some of whom say they thought they were receiving a study guide like any other -- not a copy of the actual test."

Using a pre-fab test is the teacher's fault. I am very concerned that the content of the class must have been pre-fab too.

Story: In my early years during my epically ill-advised attempt at an MS degree, I was a TA for an intro to programming course. The class had previously been taught by the same person for a number of years. The new class used an updated version of the language (think MS-BASIC to QuickBasic) and the other TA and I changed pretty much everything.

First day of class, I hand out the standard stuff with the class schedule and when the tests are going to happen. About 5 students are not seen again until the first test. I hand out the test, and see massive confusion in their faces. One (a freshman) actually says to me "This isn't the right test!". I am confused. I walk over, check the test, and say "yes, this is the first test for the chapters we covered". I am still confused, and while they are taking their tests I check the grade book and the 5 haven't turned in their 2 programs. I ask and he didn't know about them. All 5 failed and dropped the course.

After talking to my fellow TA, I found out the old teacher had given the same test for a number of years and every Greek / Club on campus had copies. Oops.

<comment><USER10>
        > I found out the old teacher had given the same test for a number
        > of years and every Greek / Club on campus had copies. Oops.

I think this is true of a lot of frats and clubs: there's the "course bible" that you consult for help with your psets. I don't know about your class, but when I've taught classes we had a very clear policy with respect to bibles: if you're copying your answers out of a bible, you're cheating, period.

There's nothing wrong with using previously-distributed material _to help you study_. There is something wrong with copying answers from an old test. There is also an obvious difference between the two, namely, one helps you learn the material, the other only helps you get a passing grade.

<comment><USER24> I really didn't have a dispute with the using of the old tests to study, but it probably would have helped them if they had realized that the tests they were studying had nothing to do with the current course. I changed my tests each semester expect for the first two questions of the final (write an insert sort and a selection sort). I figured it was just good form to change the tests as you might have learned something as an instructor from the previous year or had different programming assignments.

Story part 2: Three classes before the final I announced that the first two questions would be the two sorts we covered. I reminded the classes and wrote them on the board for the next two classes (it was kinda important they learn those for reasons I really don't remember). I arrived early for the final and was asked, in a joking manner, "What's on the test". I read the first two questions. I am pretty sure I allowed a 3x5 card for notes.

I had a space for comments at the end of the test. A senior from another major (engineering) wrote a rather pointed opinion on giving out the answer to the first two questions and how I babying the freshman. It was rather good (if insulting) reading and "had a lot of energy" as the other TA said. She sheepishly came to apologize the next day (I think she hoped I hadn't read it yet). I told her she had got her "A" but that she needn't have worried as no freshman answered the first two questions correctly.

So, knowing the answer before hand relies on knowing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The ethical reasoning about student plagiarism has become pretty simple- minded.

Of course, students must not cheat. But instructors must not create irresistibly tempting opportunities to cheat. If a test becomes available on the internet, it's the instructor, not the student, who fails to meet an ethical responsibility. To ignore the possibility that a copy of your upcoming exam is freely downloadable from a website (nevermind your inbox) would require an inhuman resistance to curiosity. I don't expect the professor in this case would find this reasoning convicning, but if he had even considered it, I doubt he would now be "physically ill, absolutely disgusted, completely disillusioned".

Another example is the "the person who lets someone copy is as guilty as the person who copies" dogma. This idea is routinely cited without explanation or evidence on the first day of classes. It may be practically necessary to punish those who enable plagiarism, but we can say that without denying the philosopical difference between handing in someone else's work and sharing your work with a friend. Indeed, I can't help thinking that Richard Stallman would oppose this kind of rule, which can make people who naturally want to help their friends terribly uneasy about doing so.

</comment><comment><USER26> So here is a situation that happened to me. A professor of mine has taught the same class year after year, and builds his tests for this year from last year's, changing only a few numbers. This professor also allows 1 8x11 "crib sheet" to be brought into the test, and distributes past years exams as study material.

For the first exam, I studied honestly and filled my crib sheet with important formulas I didn't want to memorize. I got a decent grade, but nothing spectacular. However, for the second exam I realized that all the questions to the last test were from previous exams, and just printed out the previous years exams as my crib sheet. I got close to a perfect score on this second exam.

Did I cheat?

Once you start limiting the publicly available information student can use to study, the situation gets very sticky very quickly.

</comment><comment><USER27> Whatever is available online or anywhere public is fair game, as long as it's not gained by hacking the professors computer or something along those lines (and not used DURING the test). That's just my opinion.

<comment><USER28> "What is clear is that some students gained access to a bank of tests that was maintained by the publisher of the textbook that Quinn used." Textbook publishers usually make these things available only to teachers. Some kind of hacking or fraud would be necessary for a student to gain access. There is a growing sense in our online culture that if I can figure out how to access some information, then it's ok for me to use it how I want.

<comment><USER27> > Some kind of hacking or fraud would be necessary for a student to gain > access.

Unless someone else had access to it, made it available online as a public "free" download and they found it by searching for it. No hacking or fraud was necessary there (by the students at least)

For example, when I was a student the professor assigned even numbered problems so that the answers wouldn't be in the back of the linear algebra book. However, I found a PDF online that contained all answers with solutions! I didn't have to hack anything.

<comment><USER21> That strikes me as an obnoxious professor. What conceivable reason could there be for a college instructor to do that? I only took a few courses before I withdrew, but the math instructors always assigned problems with solutions for homework, that way we could tell if we didn't understand something and ask about it in class.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> >To some observers, the incident has amplified fears about the moral character of the generation that is now coming of age.

>The divide between the generations can be seen in Quinn's lecture to students after the cheating was discovered, and the response posted by a student in the YouTube caption.

I find it fascinating that previous generations have never cheated on a large scale, or when caught have never tried to justify it or weasel out of it. Well, I guess the YouTube part is true, at least.

>McCabe said the shifting norms that relate to cheating make it difficult to say whether the problem has grown worse over time. While acknowledging that his empirical data don't support the conclusion that the problem has worsened, he believes that it has.

Well, I guess handwaving about this generation without providing any solid data or points of comparison for previous generations is sufficient for this (and most "generation gap") articles.

</comment><comment><USER30> I think much of the guilty / not guilty verdict would come from the intent of the person who first obtained a copy.

If they gained unauthorized entry into a computer system to grab the test bank, and then advertised their intent to get a copy of the exam over emails on the UCF network, then they're sunk and should just take the amnesty deal. If they got a copy from a TA friend at another school, with the intent to use it as a study aid, then they're on the whiter side of the fuzzy grey line.

</comment><comment><USER31> And at the end of it all, a student will come out of a business school sporting a shiny degree, but not much else. If he didn't cheat on his tests, he would be surely cheated out of an education.

This professor places more emphasis on a test with recycled questions than practical work.

<comment><USER32> No kidding. Every question on that midterm came out of a test bank. Why didn't the professor come up with the questions himself?

If his "team" was able to write a new midterm exam in a few days without any recycled questions, I'm not sure why his "team" couldn't do this for every exam. This would ensure that no student would be able to cheat even if they wanted to.

<comment><AUTHOR> Using standardized questions for part of the academic evaluation gives the schools and students some sort of objective benchmark. If all I know is that 'X% of students passed a test set by Professor Y,' it's not very informative, because I have no idea how rigorous or easy that test was.

Schools competing for student applicants want a meaningful way to measure the performance of their faculty against those of other schools, so as to attract more students and thus more funding. The same is true for students who work to achieve a good score on exams such as the LSAT or MCAT which can aid them in getting a scholarship; graduates competing for jobs want to demonstrate good performance at a school which is known for high standards. Academic brands can have a considerable impact on graduates' future earning potential, and so the tuition fees a school can charge, and the quality of the applicants for admission, are heavily dependent on how well its brand stacks up against those of its competitors in academic rankings.

Unless a school already has a good academic reputation - either because it is considered elite, or as a new school hiring a demonstrably well-qualified faculty - it may well be more effective to outsource part of their evaluation process than to spend years trying to improve their reputation by word of mouth. Excellent schools will tend to graduate excellent students who go on to do well in their academic or professional fields; but it takes a long time for such a pattern to become apparent. An external evaluation tool provides results within a single semester.

<comment><USER14> Nice theory, I've never heard of anyone caring how students performed against a test bank.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> As an anecdote, I'm teaching my first class this semester, and had a similar- ish experience, but with a much worse outcome for the students. To avoid this issue of people not knowing how the test is going to look like (and hence not knowing how to study for it), I decided to make two versions of each test question (and each question focuses on a simple part of the material that I want them to take home) and randomly assign each version of a question either to the actual test or to a practice test that I give them out a week or so before the actual test and then solve the practice test in front of them, clearly stating what I do and don't expect them to do.

Now, in the first test they did well, but in the second test a significant fraction of the class (like 60+%) just wrote in their tests _my_ answers to the practice questions, and some argued that since there was some similarity they should get half credit or something. My reaction was, and still is, wtf?

<comment><USER34> My teacher for the ASP.NET class said he used to make the link to the 'final test' live/unprotected early in the term, as if by mistake (the tests were online and performed at workstations), but uploading a paper which _wasn't_ the actual test and only changing it on test day. I don't know if he was joking but it cracked me up. I remember when the Turnitin.com plagiarism detection system was introduced to us in a lecture, some audibly worried students at the front had the gall to ask if they could submit their essays in handwritten form.

<comment><USER35> Turnitin was just being brought online at my university while I was there, and there were some interesting (university) Senate cases about it - <USER5> particular, one student who refused to submit his final exam to it for various reasons was failed. He then appealed it, and in the end won (and got it marked without submitting it). When I left the school - and things may have changed since then - the deal was that for classes that used Turnitin you either had to submit your paper to them, or you had to submit multiple drafts of your paper (with notes and edits in them) and be open to an oral exam and discussion on any part of it, which seems like a fair compromise.

Personally, if I had been in a class that used it (or in a field where we regularly wrote papers), I wouldn't have submitted my papers to it. Arguments aside about how it poisons the feeling of trust (which I think are somewhat valid), I don't like that Turnitin makes its money off my work without my getting any of the action. The value of their product is dependent on getting a copy of my papers, so they clearly have some value. If that's the case, why should I be forced to give it to them for free?

<comment><USER34> Yes there's something not quite satisfactory about handing over your IP to Turnitin with little choice in the matter. I think in the end though I concluded that for honest students like us the pros outweigh the cons. I'm so sick of plagiarists in higher education.

Ironically Turnitin ended up costing me dearly - it shows your marker a percentage of how much of your essay consists of quotations. I was penalised for breaching the maximum threshold of original content to citation, my grade capped at 59/100. But I doubt the marker would have realised otherwise, because it was a well written report (about database copyright) that flowed naturally; I simply included longish quotations from my sources to make things clearer. Being told to 'learn how to paraphrase' rankles to this day. Argh. Maybe I can have the last laugh by making it my glorious blogging debut...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> This seems like a classic case where many people tried to cut corners and they're now trying to claim that they're the victim.

The professor claimed that he wrote the tests while he was actually using pre- fab tests. One can argue that the pre-fab tests are as good or better than the ones he would write himself and, as such, there's nothing wrong. Except that passing off another's work as your own is usually known as plagiarism. With that declaration, it is perfectly conceivable that students would expect that these pre-fab tests are things from the textbook manufacturer that they could study off of. If that is the case, there is no generational disconnect about cheating and the premise of the article is overblown.

Personally, I'm very sympathetic to the students. Logic tells me that if you're cheating, you try not to spread it around to a group of 200 - most of whom you won't know or trust. I mean, there are two ways it could have played out:

1) You send the exam (or it gets continually forwarded down the line) to 200 people telling them that it's cheating (acting with bad intent). Odds are that one of those 200 is going to tell the professor that you're cheating before the exam. Plan foiled.

2) You send out the pre-fab exam to people thinking it's just a study guide from the teacher's edition of the book since the professor makes up his own exams. It gets widely forwarded because, hey, awesome study guide! Then it turns out that it's the actual exam questions and someone tells the professor that.

#1 seems more believable because it came to light after the exam rather than before. It seems plausible that the professor had been lazy for years using pre-fab tests and by chance got caught this year passing off pre-fab tests as his own. Rather than say, "well, unfortunately a lot of students got a copy of the test before since I wasn't making them myself and we'll have to re-do the midterm", the professor tried to defend himself by attacking the students. By accusing them of cheating, it wasn't his laziness that caused a re-take of the midterm, but cheating students. He shouldn't be blamed for wasting time, it's cheating students.

At the beginning of the article, I really disliked the students - people who didn't want to put in the work trying to get a good grade they didn't deserve. It's possible that's what they were. However, I can't see any evidence that indicates that's the case. All of the evidence seems to point the other direction.

* The professor said he made the tests

* The situation came to light after the exam, not before and _one would think someone of the 200+ would snitch before the exam_

This isn't a generational disconnect on what constitutes cheating. The students aren't defending themselves saying that it's ok to get a copy of the exam beforehand. The soul searching that the professor needs to do is around his exam preparation.

Let's say there's an open-source econ exam online (someone's written and published it). I, as a professor, print off 600 copies and give it in my class. It just so happens that many of the students, while looking for practice materials, found that exam. It's my fault for using a public exam.

In this case, the professor was using semi-private materials. The questions seem to be from the teacher's edition of the book (you know, the kind with the answers already written in). Yeah, it's not "public", but it isn't quite private either. If students think that you're going to be making your own questions, maybe an exam in the teacher's edition of the book they're using seems like the perfect practice test. It's the material you've been covering, but not the exact exam.

I don't want to sound too harsh on the professor, but sometimes you have to own up. Saying, "I thought that the teacher's edition materials wouldn't be available to students. Unfortunately, they were" makes me feel bad for the situation that both parties are in. It's a little sketchy whether it's ok to grab the teacher's materials of a textbook if you're a student. Clearly it's not all roses - you know that it wasn't written for you (a student), but if it doesn't affect the course of the class it isn't so bad, right?

This feels like when Harvard Business School denied entrance to students who looked at whether other people were admitted. Phil Greenspun wrote about it (<http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2005/03/08/>). Baiscally, they gave students a URL that had a code in it (with no check). So, students typed in example.com/admitted?stud=12345 and saw whether they got in. However, they could just change the number and see other people and were accused of hacking. They blamed the students for what was their error when, really, their disclosure of admissions info without protections might have left them open for a lawsuit. And it isn't just "hacking", curious users wondering whether their software was really so bad and those who made typos could cause problems. Imagine that I'm #12346 and you're #12345. I accidentally type in 12345 and pull up you, realize my mistake and pull up me. Now they think that you looked at you and then "hacked" the system to look at me when you're innocent all along.

In this case, even if a few students had malicious intent, it's highly unlikely that a secret conspiracy of 200 students of malicious intent could happen and the vast majority just thought they were getting a practice exam. Now, the professor and the university want to make them out to be immoral cheaters to cover themselves. I'm not saying that getting access to teacher editions isn't problematic and morally above reproach. However, if you're operating under the assumption that the professor isn't using it, it's understandable and certainly not the type of immorality that the professor is trying to paint.

<comment><USER37> I'll leave the professor's side out of it, as you've covered it adequately, but on the student's side, even if they did think they were just getting a practice test or study guide, it became cheating the moment they realized it and failed to inform the professor that they had already seen the test.

<comment><USER36> That's exactly what I failed to articulate. I knew I was missing something because the students didn't feel blameless to me. That's why it feels like a situation where each side is trying to yell at the other rather than both accepting responsibility for messing up a little.

It just makes me sad because everyone is posturing. Rather than saying "well, life happens and things go wrong and we'll work together to fix them" they're working on who is at fault. The professor wants the students to admit "guilt" or face sanctions for cheating because then things are found in his favor. The students would rather blame the professor for being lazy and not making up the test himself when they should have come forward once they recognized that they had seen it. It's unfortunate when we (and I've done it too) try to cover ourselves rather than working toward a solution.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Anyone who teaches these days needs to keep in mind that pirated solutions manuals are easily obtained online for almost any text. Using problem sets or exams that are provided by a publisher for any course component with significant weight just invites cheating and punishes the students who don't cheat.

<comment><USER39> I find it ironic that he emphatically stated, "The days of finding a new way to cheat the system are over."

Before that he said that he had been teaching for 20 years and hadn't ever had to give this lecture before.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I can't see any ethical issue with the students' actions, so long as they were honestly under the impression that the professor would be creating a bespoke exam, and that canned exam came from a legitimate source.

The appropriate response, in that case, would still be to invalidate the exam due to the unfair advantaged gained by the students who studied from the canned one, but I can't see punishing those students much less disparaging their moral character.

Practice examinations are routinely used to study for standardized tests, and the organization responsible for creating and administering the LSAT even sells previously administered tests directly. If that isn't cheating, I can't see how this instance can possibly be construed as such.

<comment><USER35> The thing I'm not clear on (and to me, this makes a difference) is the nature of just how canned the exam was. Specifically, was an entirely pre-made exam (from a teachers' edition) given to these students, or did the teacher himself select an assortment of pre-made questions from an exam pack, thereby creating his own exam (made of canned components)?

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> This is really weird. I went to UCF and it was regular practice for instructors to either give you the tests beforehand, previous test for reference, or tell you to find students that may have taken the class before and look at their tests for reference.

</comment><comment><USER42> Of course the students blamed the professor: they've been taught by example throughout their lives that the proper reaction to fucking up is to point the finger at everyone else.

An incredible lack of personal responsibility is a growing problem in this generation.

<comment><USER15> I love that the only lens we can see this story through is to take sides with the students or the professor. I expect any professor to write his own tests (or have his TA write them). I consider it cheating for a professor to contract out the work of writing a test.

If students knew that they were seeing the test early, then they cheated too.

I find it impossible to determine who has the high ground in this story because both the professor and the students are standing in the mud.

<comment><USER43> Here's an analogy: if you visit a web page with a password field, and the password is embedded in a comment in the HTML markup, who is at fault for unauthorized people logging in? While it may be morally wrong (and illegal) to exploit the system, I have a pretty strong opinion on which party is more at fault. The students' punishment seems fitting, it's sad that there is no mention of disciplinary action against the prof who is crying foul for leaving his password barely hidden, so to speak.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I took a physics exam once where we had studied previous years exams and the test was essentially questions from those tests. Needless to say, that exam went fine, but it felt very weird. We weren't cheating, the exams were publicly available on the college's website, but the professor clearly didn't know that. The idea that you can reuse an exam multiple times especially in the science is just over. It sucks, but it's the truth. The same is becoming true of interview questions.

<comment><USER45> "just" over? and why especially in science?

I'm remember as soon as in middle/junior high school ("collège" in France, I believe equivalent to US grades 6 to 9), which i started in 1993, and continuing throughout high school and then superior studies (maybe excluding "classes préparatoires", which are notoriously very hard), it was well-known that _some_ teachers used to recycle their exams from previous years. And we had no need to use information tech to find somebody able to provide us both questions and answers. It did not happened a lot, but we definitely did so a few times, transmitting the informations in very small group of very close students. We occasionally heard about other small groups having had access to the exam prior to taking it (because it was recycled, not by stealing it) while we were not aware of it available too. I'm pretty sure it _always_ happens when a teacher recycle its own exams or only construct it using open or quasi-open content always from the same source. It was felt by pretty much every student as "fair game", taking advantage of teacher laziness. In retrospect it was clearly a form of cheating, but a kind of light cheating not as hard as e.g. getting the answers in the exam room, and also I would not put all the blame on the students (well it's hard to blame himself, so I'm biased on this)... Also it would have astonished me to see an exam canceled because of that, because the teacher would clearly be shown as lazy and sharing a huge part of responsibility.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> If you haven't seen it, it's worth watching the video of where he explains how he spotted something was amiss via statistical analysis: <http://vimeo.com/16637201>

That's all in the first 4 minutes BTW; the rest of it is about the arrangements for re-administration of the test, chastisement of the cheating students, explanation of school ethics policy and so on. I found this equally interesting but for social rather than technical reasons.

<comment><USER46> His explanation of bimodal distributions isn't satisfactory. Bimodal distributions can occur naturally in nature--they don't require external force.

With that being said, DAMN that graph skews right. Almost everyone got a B or above.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I wonder how hard it was to get access to the first copy.

I know I've done similar things. Whenever I have a midterm in a class that I know is taught at other universities, I try to track down past exams to go through. They are really helpful to work through similar problems to those being presented on the test.

Also, whenever the class is widespread enough to have solutions to homework and labs posted online, our Professor generally tells us directly on day one, and that we should avoid them.

<comment><USER14> If they're widely available, he shouldn't be reusing them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I've had far too many high-school teachers allow students to study copies of tests. The teachers are so worried about grades that they're willing to sacrifice integrity (?) to inflate them. As I understand it, this is something of a nationwide issue.

When these students get to college, why should we expect them to expect any differently?

This argumentation is assuming that the students really did cheat, but I suspect that there is not yet enough conclusive evidence available to make that call.

</comment><comment><USER49> As a student in college, this story is alarming to me.

At my University, it is common for... 1\. Departments to post up old exams for students to practice. 2\. Professors recommend that you track down older students for their old tests. 3\. Students often create practice exams and hand them out to their peers.

I do not believe that all 200 students are guilty of cheating but perhaps the initial few who had their hands on the practice exam knew exactly what they were getting into.

</comment><comment><USER7> One point that nobody has brought up yet:

The instructor represented the tests as having been created by himself (a fallacy, as it turned out). If that was the case, then when students saw the exact same questions ahead of time, wouldn't the implication be that the test had been stolen? If that was the case, then wouldn't the students have had a moral imperative to report this fact when they saw the same test during test day?

<comment><USER50> _a fallacy, as it turned out_

A falsehood. A fallacy is an argument where the conclusion does not follow from the assumptions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> I can see the motivation behind this sort of "grades over learning" behavior in business school, since it's the sort of place where the Degree is all that matters.

For other disciplines though, where you're actually there to learn something, I just could never understand why you would do that. Why would you pay money to take classes, and then cheat on tests to avoid having to learn the material. Couldn't you achieve the same result by simply doing nothing?

I graduated with an Engineering degree, and a terrible grade point average. I could still, however, 15 years on, sit the final exam in any of my core classes and pass it. Somehow I doubt that the students copying each other's homework assignments as a "time-management strategy" will be able to do the same thing.

</comment><comment><USER52> >trying to figure out what was the last 20 years for

Basically, don't get involved with exams either as an instructor or a student.

Why? Exams hurt all that encounter them (including teachers, markers and even _successful_ students).

And they're pointless by their own terms because knowledge can't be measured.

<comment><USER53> Really? Because I found that my inability to do matrix math on my second Math 100 exam corresponded pretty well with my lack of understanding about how matrix math worked.

<comment><USER52> Good point, but there is context missing.

Are you interested in matrix math, or were you merely trying to pass an exam?

Alternatively, if you are interested in matrix math, did the fact that you had to pass an exam make it harder to learn?

<comment><USER54> Reading comprehension fail.

Probably related to why you do so poorly on tests.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> How can the school punish students for using the prior test to study?

</comment><comment><USER56> These kids were business majors. I would fail them not on the principle of cheating, but because they cheated and got caught.

First rule of cheating: never pass the exam with 100%

<comment><USER45> Given that it was allegedly detected at first by the bimodal distribution of the results (and BTW I've been in some highly competitive environments were the results were bimodal too more often than not, or even more strange, without any cheating possible), and even imagining nobody anonymously posted the disputed study source, it would have been hard to get better results without that detected (whether "that" or not is cheating not even being the question). People could have tried to only slightly increase their results by injecting lot of voluntary faults in known answers, but knowing the right amount would be very difficult...

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> Why is there even discussion about this? The prof is the cheater.</comment>


Ask HN:Why do browser don't display the tabs on the left? - <AUTHOR>

I've been using "Tree Style Tabs" for years on Firefox. This is what is pushing me away from chrome (that I use everyday but very lightly since it gets too messy when I have too many tabs opened).<p>I still don't get why it's not the default, or it's not available right away. <comment><USER2> I stay with Firefox for daily use because I like a lot of the available addons; it makes it _my_ browser, not just Firefox. Chrome just doesn't have enough specific addons or customization for it to ever feel like _my_ browser.

Tree Style Tabs is always the first addon that I install in a new Firefox, followed closely by All In One Sidebar, It's All Text and Uppity. Then come Pinboard, and adding DDG to the search bar.

I've tried many times to like Chrome, but being a bit faster doesn't make up for less customization, for me.

</comment><comment><USER3> It only makes sense to have a side tab panel considering everyone has a widescreen display.

</comment><comment><USER4> Because text is read horizontally, not vertically, so horizontally oriented title areas are more natural. Same reason applications put menus at the top, titles at the top, etc.

<comment><AUTHOR> tabs on the left are read horizontally. Check "Tree Style Tabs" to see what I mean.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> because it occupies too much space? i do not know actually, i never tried it but i usually do not have so many tabs to require a whole column,most of the space would be blank. But maybe i do not have so many tabs because i do not have space.

<comment><AUTHOR> Screens nowadays tend toward being larger than taller, so there's usually an extra awkward spaces on the sides of a website. Which is perfect for putting tabs.

I've seen that in a presentation from firefox years ago, I actually thought it was clever, I still don't get why haven't implemented it after all those years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I like the idea of it but it looks a bit ugly, since the boxes don't line up.</comment>


The 5 Ps: Achieving Focus in Any Endeavor - <AUTHOR> http://ceklog.kindel.com/2011/06/14/the-5-ps-achieving-focus-in-any-endeavor/

<comment><USER2> I'm a big fan of the 5 P's and the author does a great job talking about them.

My very first week at Microsoft, I was looking through internal videos when I saw a video from J Allard titled something like 'How to be a PM at Microsoft'. It made a huge impression on 20-year old me, fresh out of college. J made a ton of good points and a lot of it centered around the 5 P's.

The funny thing about them is that you would think they were obvious and straightforward and every team would have them. But like PG asking people "who wants this/who will pay for this?, the 5 Ps are a surprisingly effective tool and rules to live by.

For folks at MSFT, I suggest digging out the entire video by J. No idea where it is still posted though (used to be on the old AskPM site).

</comment><comment><USER3> I like the parts where he related the 5Ps directly to WP7's development, the context is useful and interesting.

It also explains, I think, why WP7 is such an un-Microsoft product in so many ways, and why I love using it. It's focused in a way that other products from the company just _aren't_, and it's much better for it.</comment>


Ask HN: Should I go for higher pay, older technology job offer? - <AUTHOR>

Current job - latest technology (.NET 4.0), lower pay, long commute, nice team. New job offer - short term project .NET 2.0, higher pay, short commute, team lead seemed to be nice. Any thoughts? <comment><USER2> I did that move many times in my 8 years in the enterprise field(I hold MCP, MCAD, MCTS), I won't be surprised if you have to work with more than just an old version of .NET. The PC market is full of legacy stuff, you go back to work with those .NET2.0-ish people and you end up by dealing with VBScript, COM+, ASP, VB6 and stuff like that. I personally think that you will not be entirely happy in an enterprise environment, so I would work with other more interesting technologies in my free time.

Also, for personal experience, take in count that companies working with old technologies rarely want to sponsor certifications for newer version of the platform(forget about C# 5 free exam vouchers) since their ".NET 2.0" infrastructure is working "just fine".

<comment><AUTHOR> Very true. I know that is the killer part, I used to work with a company which struggled to move from 1.1 framework to 2.0 framework when MSFT released 3.5.

<comment><USER3> I am currently working on factory automation software running on the 1.1 framework...in Windows 2000.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The age of the technology is not the same thing as the quality of the infrastructure. I wouldn't judge on that regard. However, the upgrade from .NET 2.0 is not difficult, in sane situations, so there's a question of what's going on there.

</comment><comment><USER5> Think long term, would you still have fun with older tech in 2 years?

<comment><AUTHOR> Probably not but it is a short term project (6+ months). I am skeptical if it would place a dent on my resume if I went to an older technology. It would be much harder convincing my next prospective employer. Wouldn't it?

<comment><USER6> Yes. I am a C++ developer with about 20 years of experience with C and C++ plus various and sundry other languages and environments...

In 2004 or so I took what was going to be a short term job (exactly the situation you describe, minus C#/.Net) using a 10 year old Borland environment (BC++ 4.52 and 5.0). I ended up staying there about 18 months.

I have not had another C++ job yet and it's not due to lack of effort in finding a job. I'm very friendly with a few of the recruiters in the area and several of them have told me companies are scared of me because my recent experience was "old" (paraphrased). My resume was otherwise pretty current, Boost, Embedded Linux (with a current GCC), recent MSVC C++ etc.

I'd say stick with the newest stuff you can find unless the commute is a real killer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Would the new company be open to using newer technologies in the future, or at least in house?

I'd say go with the new job since change is good, and commutes are a killer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hah. I know dude, I hate commutes. Well, they "say" they will eventually move to the latest framework. I have my doubts.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Extension/app to save arbitrary text or images and e-mail it back to me? - <AUTHOR> Throughout my day, I run across random links, snippets of text, and images that I'd like to save but don't have time to sort or otherwise deal with. Is there some app, browser extension, etc that could take (preferably by dragging) snippets like this and send it back to me in a 'daily digest'-type format? I thought I might be able to cobble something together (IFTTT and Dropbox, maybe), but would prefer a more reliable solution if it exists.<p>Thanks! <comment><USER2> I've heard good things about: [https://www.emailthis.me](https://www.emailthis.me)

I'm not sure it does text snippets, though.</comment>


Joy of Computing – Daily Links from the Recurse Community - <AUTHOR> https://joy.recurse.com <comment><USER2> For those interested in such curated links/articles, I run DiscoverDev - [https://www.discoverdev.io/](https://www.discoverdev.io/)

I curate and tag about 8-10 interesting and high quality developer related links every weekday. Been doing so for over a year and a half now, I believe I've curated over 2500+ links :)

<comment><USER3> You should consider putting this in github. Personal websites are always at risk of getting lost eventually.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> As web search engines continue to decline (why?), we are reinventing Yahoo/DMOZ curated indexes. Do any search engines use curated lists as a signal of quality?

<comment><USER5> "why?"

Algorithmic search has it's limitations, it can only really give you what you search for, and for something niche, the signal could be drowned out by the mainstream noise.

I suppose HN could be replaced with a google search for "interesting tech(ish) related things" I don't really think that would or could work though.

I'll also check the blog roll of interesting sites I find, because I don't think they'd necessarily show up in a search.

I don't think web search is in decline though, or if it is, its down to the walled gardens cutting off large parts of the web.

<comment><USER6> >> Algorithmic search has it's limitations

Search engines were never just about algorithmic search. They were search+recommend (what you'd call "AI" these days), but the most successfull ones always turned recommend into advertising.

<comment><USER5> Agreed, its still algorithmic though.

To return to the Hacker News example, if I read whatever is at number 1 on the front page of HN via a search engine, I don't think it would give 'you may also like' recommendations to anything approximating the HN front page. They would be things relevant to the article.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Left-Hand Path Developer Hugh Hancock Suddenly Passes Away - <AUTHOR> https://uploadvr.com/left-hand-path-developer-hugh-hancock-suddenly-passes-away/ <comment><AUTHOR> I don't know his handle off hand but he was an active HN member for years.</comment>


Customize Twitter Bootstrap To Not Look Bootstrap-y - <AUTHOR> http://antjanus.com/blog/web-design-tips/user-interface-usability/customize-twitter-bootstrap-into-themes/ <comment><USER2> Once upon a time, I wrote a World of Warcraft add-on called "SexyMap". Basically, it provided a bunch of functionality for your mini-map, and it made it skinnable in a crapload of interesting ways, so that people could build maps that thematically fit with the rest of their UIs.

As of right now, it is registering at 4,692,196 downloads.

Nobody customizes the damn thing. In every screenshot I've ever seen with someone using it, they're using the default skin. The really creative ones do a hue-shift on the default skin. It ships with a good dozen+ skins, and has an editor built into it to let people easily build more. The only time that functionality has apparently been used is when I was building the initial default skin set.

Default Bootstrap annoys the heck out of me, too, but I've learned that people just don't customize things even if you give them the tools to do it. If it's good enough out of the box, they just leave it alone. Bootstrap is good enough out of the box.

I expect years upon years of default Bootstrap websites. We'd best get used to them now.

<comment><USER3> I agree with you and moreover I don't see a problem with default Bootstrap sites.

I know a few dozen restaurant sites alone that I could only _dream_ of being remotely as pleasant to look at as a default Bootstrap site.

The internet has come a long way since the era of Geocities, faux 3D gifs and blink tags, and I am very thankful that there are tools to make a site look passably pleasing with very little effort. I will gladly get used to them.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree with you on the restaurant thing. There are god-awful sites out there that make bootstrap look like the holy grail of design deliciousness.

I would, in those cases, prefer to see BS

<comment><USER4> Well, there's a good business opportunity in what you guys say, build a custom CMS system for restaurants, like buuteeq.com but for restaurants.

<comment> user-id A couple of startups in this space already are <http://letseat.at> and <http://www.happytables.com/> for reference.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It's been said here before, but I'm fairly sure the only people "disappointed" and "annoyed" at the many sites using Bootstrap are web developers. Of course we notice UI frameworks because it's our job to create websites.

However, the vast majority of users don't give a half a cent about what UI framework the site is using, let alone know what a front-end toolkit is. All they notice is that it is easy for them to interact with the app, probably much easier than if the developer had coded it. In fact, the site is probably built sooner anyway since the developer didn't have to spend the time to create a UI by themselves.

<comment><USER6> "It's been said here before, but I'm fairly sure the only people "disappointed" and "annoyed" at the many sites using Bootstrap are web developers. Of course we notice UI frameworks because it's our job to create websites."

Are you sure you meant Web Developers? It sounds like you meant Web Designers.

I wouldn't use Bootstrap for any client-facing website, but other agencies I know have tried it and those that work on the lower-end of the client scale have had trouble with clients not wanting to pay when the look of certain elements looks almost exactly like those on other sites they've been to.

Bootstrap is a decent tool, but it has been abused by non-developers and non- designers that cannot develop or design their own pages. It's hardly surprising, and it's a testament to how good Bootstrap can be. However, I hope that Twitter eventually scales back some of Bootstrap to allow people that use it for its intended use to get more out of it.

<comment><USER7> I've been using Bootstrap more and more for mostly one reason: it's responsive grid. I'm sure there are alternatives, but it required very little effort to find Bootstrap and it does what I need it to do effectively. The other features are a bonus I can choose to use or to leave out.

Most of BS's javascript features need to be loaded separately and if you use LESS, you can scale back a huge chunk of the CSS if you don't plan to use certain CSS features.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I have used many frameworks of the past, but Bootstrap is in a different league coupled with LESS. It just is.

I see Bootstrap as being not too dissimilar from iOS UI. In the early days, you saw a lot of UI's built on Apple's native guidelines without much deviation. It was just difficult, the SDKs weren't fully baked for it. If you wanted to maintain compatibility as Apple progressed rapidly, you stuck to the basics.

Now you're seeing all sorts of amazing UI's built upon a solid fountain for interacting with _multi-touch_ mobile apps. Similarly, Bootstrap is an equally great foundation for building responsive web apps that just continues to get better.

As it becomes more of a standard, then more time becomes available for the veneer. After all, that's really the only thing people are complaining about — something rather superficial and has no real impact on value of the product. What is does to the user experience is an open debate (more graphics = slower on mobile). I'm on my 3rd project with Bootstrap, and finally feel like I have a grip on adding veneer programmatically after some trial and error.

Want to start a small-cap cash cow? Get some great designers together and go make the next WooThemes for Bootstrap.

<comment><USER9> "something rather superficial and has no real impact on value of the product."

Have you A/B tested that? Cavet: To normal real world folk, bootstrap is shockingly new-high-tech. But you would be surprised how much, say, a dark green background will help a forestry related website or a swiss bank.

This is excellent stuff and we need more of it. If simply to eliminate the drudge work of defining GUI's so we can get back to building value in our companies.

<comment><USER8> Color theory is simple to apply with CSS. The type of veneer I'm describing goes way beyond that. Fortunately with CSS3, more of it is moving to the style sheet but it was very tedious until LESS and mixins came into the picture.

Don't forget split testing suffers from ceiling effect.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> > I'm sick of seeing the same damn buttons. I'm sick of seeing that same damn > toolbar up top. It's driving me crazy.

If only html/css/js/browsers had default decent(or even non-decent) standard gui widgets from the beginning, there won't have been a need for bootstrap, and hence no need for getting riled up over buttons looking the same.

Making "submit" button different on every site you work on might have a purpose; it's just that that "purpose" totally eludes me.

I don't know what app the blog post is talking about, but if you decide not to use an app because it uses default bootstrap theme implies 1) either you don't need the app and are just fidgeting around; 2) or the app has so much competition that people are making decisions based on trivialities; 3) or you are the kind of person who decides he wants a silver car first and then decides what kind of car he wants. As a developer, if it's 1, you aren't a priority. If it's 2, I will have to check if bootstrap is the reason people are picking up the competition over me - if it isn't and I already have ample competition breathing down my neck, I have other things to worry about. If it's 3, I will be bothered only if there are many like you who want a silver car first and bother about the mileage, pickup, handling etc next; if that isn't the case, you can shop for your silver car elsewhere.

<comment><AUTHOR> The submit button isn't the problem. Look at the default HTML styles. What sites out there still use that blue color for a link? It's one of the first things that gets redeclared in CSS.

As far as the audience, yes, I was just messing around with a few apps and looking at them. Each time I felt like there was something drawing me away from using it. Design is not disjointed from app usage. It's part of usability, it's part of the allure of an app. Read up on it.

Also, it's an EASY fix. Don't want to look like every other page hosted on Github or any other small app page? Customize bootstrap. Within 30 minutes, you're capturing audience, but not only that, you're standing out. It may not be specifically that bootstrap usage REPULSES people it may just be it doesn't really get them riled up about your app or make your app memorable.

<comment><USER10> > What sites out there still use that blue color for a link?

What do you mean _that blue_? As far as using blue for links go, I scanned my opened tabs and Google, Facebook, Github use blue for links. Bootstrap's blue isn't the browser default blue. They made it blue because most of the users expect links to be blue.

> Design is not disjointed from app usage.

I don't remember claiming it is. The default bootstrap them isn't bad design. It's better than what a typical developer or designer comes up with. Also, the user doesn't give a shit if the buttons look the same on all websites. Most of the users won't even notice.

> It's part of usability, it's part of the allure of an app. Read up on it.

Making links non-blue or changing button colors isn't usability. Read up on it.

> Don't want to look like every other page hosted on Github or any other small > app page? Customize bootstrap.

I would do that if _I don't want to look like every other bootstrap site_. Does this even need to be said?

> Customize bootstrap. Within 30 minutes, you're capturing audience,

I missed the part where you proved changing bootstrap theme captures audience in 30 minutes.

> It may not be specifically that bootstrap usage REPULSES people it may just > be it doesn't really get them riled up about your app or make your app > memorable.

Since you are throwing around a lot of "maybe" and anecdotes, I will throw one of mine. I am yet to meet someone who is repulsed by bootstrap and is a _customer_ \- people who need my app and directly or indirectly pay for it.

<comment><AUTHOR> "that blue" is the default browser blue and if you check Facebook uses a different blue and doesn't use the default underline, neither does Google and neither does Github. They all changed the default.

I'm not saying it's bad design. And if they don't notice, good for you.

it's part of legibility. And yes, it's part of usability as well

that was a point. Do you want to look like every other page hosted on github or any other small app page?

the article states how long it takes to change to customize bootstrap. It's less than 30 minutes. Within that time, you can have a site that doesn't look like stock bootstrap thus differentiating yourself from the rest of the sites that look exactly the same.

Different audience desires different stuff; however, having a site that keeps away from the default is brandable, much more so than a default Bootstrap site. Branding is marketing 101.

What's your site's URL? I'd love to check it out.

<comment><USER10> > > What sites out there still use that blue color for a link?

>> "that blue" is the default browser blue and if you check Facebook uses a different blue and doesn't use the default underline, neither does Google and neither does Github. They all changed the default.

Bootstrap doesn't use the default blue either.

> it's part of legibility. And yes, it's part of usability as well

It's part of legibility, but your changes aren't making it any more legible than it already is.

> that was a point. Do you want to look like every other page hosted on github > or any other small app page?

Depends.

> Within that time, you can have a site that doesn't look like stock bootstrap > thus differentiating yourself from the rest of the sites that look exactly > the same.

Again, that depends. Consider freshbooks - a small product I use. It can very well switch to bootstrap theme or geocities era design. I won't give a damn because it's free and serves my purpose. I am pretty sure there are other invoicing solutions out there, but whether they use bootstrap or not(an example; none of them do) isn't a variable in my decision.

> however, having a site that keeps away from the default is brandable, much > more so than a default Bootstrap site. Branding is marketing 101.

At this point, I will just agree to disagree. You seem to place a lot of importance on visibly differentiating a product. For me, visibly differentiating(as in changing a few less variables in bootstrap) is so low on the list that it fell down the list.

> What's your site's URL? I'd love to check it out.

Mostly enterprisy stuff. I do contractual work with Ruby/Python/Clojure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I can get behind the headline. However, the implementation is seriously lacking. I'm _not_ a designer. I can't find anyone who can explain to me the hows and whys of CSS without expecting me to already know CSS. So I just copy CSS that I like.

I've implemented Bootstrap on a new site. I see your colorschemedesigner.com link. Now, how do I get these colors from it into Bootstrap? Oh, the Bootstrap customize page. Which colors from Color Scheme Designer 3 go in which boxes? If I have to edit CSS, which files do I have to edit and why?

You're a designer and you think this stuff is "easy." Speeding up your database-centric app is easy, too. Use a proper RDBMS and correctly normalize your data. What? You don't understand? Yeah, that's how I feel when designers expect me to "fix" my Bootstrap-clone website.

Edited to add: On Color Scheme Designer, I find a set of colors I think looks nice and then look at the light and dark page examples ... and they look like ass. I have no patience to sit and find something that looks nice here and drop it in Bootstrap there and discover that it looks terrible. A lovely 'download Bootstrap CSS' link on this site would save tons of time.

<comment><USER12> > If I have to edit CSS, which files do I have to edit and why?

Seems to be the wrong approach. Framework code shall never be changed. The challenge is to design e.g. your own button that is based on the Bootstrap button. This approach is upward-compatible.

<comment><USER11> Assuming this is indeed the case, I'm surprised this isn't a big attention- getter on the bootstrap site. I also have no idea how I'd go about 'extending' the bootstrap button into something for me.

<comment><USER12> > I also have no idea how I'd go about 'extending' the bootstrap button into > something for me.

You extend it by using what CSS offers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I just don't get the bootstrap hate. Same buttons and toolbar? Well you see the same buttons and toolbar about every page, in your browser window. It doesn't bother me.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's fine. I tend to get riled up about it because there's just no variety. I understand "standards" and "defaults" the way that the browser displays stuff but this is just a bit too much for my taste.

<comment><USER13> I don't mind it because the people who use bootstrap get to spend their time doing something more productive than making a platform. I appreciate the advice about easily customizing it, though. I didn't think it would be that easy to make something unique on bootstrap.

<comment><AUTHOR> I definitely agree with your statement. That's why I said, I know why people use it. I'm so glad I don't have to spend an hour trying to come up with styles for a particular thing and have something built in. With that said, it's even nicer that the interface I look at for 8 hours a day is actually customized and unique.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It's funny how when people use alternative dev tools to build UIs on OS X, people complain that the resulting applications "don't look like Mac applications", but that at the same time web applications are expected to look different from one another. What purpose does that look/feel diversity solve?

<comment><USER15> I get the feeling that many of the complaints about "doesn't look like a Mac app" really mean "isn't as polished".

Chrome on the Mac isn't completely consistent with how Mac apps work but no one complains about it (as far as I know) because it's polished and works well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> As HN users I suspect we're seeing a far greater quantity of brand-new bootstrap sites than almost every other group on the internet. I wouldn't sweat using bootstrap for your app if you're targeting a different group.

</comment><comment><USER17> I think people _should_ configure Bootstrap and use different colours, and approach it not as a strict guideline but as a good starting point with useful widgets to play with. I am, however, completely happy with people using Bootstrap unconfigured, it looks good and for the most part is normally used in a really clean way. A lot of iOS apps look like the stock components, and that's fine as those components are nice and clean.

There often seems to be a bit of push back about websites looking the same, especially with Bootstrap sites, but we don't expect (and often don't want) applications running myriads of different UI styles on our desktops. Maybe it's just a sign of the times.

<comment><USER18> I visually recognise websites I visit, app-like stuff especially.

Everyone using bootstrap has made the internet a mostly unrecognizable hogwash of same-looking stuff that I have a hard time telling apart, let alone any sort of lasting impression being left.

Think about it, even Bootstrap's page itself doesn't look like a default Boostrap template.

<comment><USER17> If the page has made no impression, doesn't that speak more about the content than the presentation? I agree on the visual aspects of being able to determine a page, but Bootstrap just provides a clean way to display some content, I'm alright with that.

And no, Bootstraps page doesn't look like a default template, but they don't say 'you _must_ customise it', it's left up to the developer/designer/implementor.

<comment><USER18> I think that was OP's point though. Bootstrap is a framework, so please use it as a framework, not as a finished solution.

And I don't think lasting impressions are determined that much by content. I recognize pages by a sort of screenshot in my mind, it's a bit like recognizing faces. Happens too quickly for the content to come into play.

<comment><USER17> It's a finished solution _and_ a framework, it can be picked on what you need from it. Not being trying obtuse, I just see a lot of criticism levelled at Bootstrap for creating similar looking pages, but for most of those pages they're primarily focussed around displaying content in a nice way (documentation for example).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> All windows apps look the same. And all Mac Apps. Maybe Bootstrap is the beginning of making all things web look/work/feel similar to on another. Is that terrible?

<comment><USER20> I'd dispute that any of my apps on OS X or Windows look the same, except those from related product families like Office. Safari doesn't look like Chrome. Mac Mail looks nothing like iPhoto, etc...

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> When I started on my project I created a /css directory and then a /twitter folder underneath it full of the raw .less files. When I decided I wanted to use a bootstrap component, I would move it out of the /twitter folder into the main /css folder and then include it. It's a good way to get a lot out of Twitter bootstrap without falling into the "obviously bootstrappy" look.

Over time, I've tried to remove what I can of the bootstrap look and feel but I found it hard (for me and my below average css skills) to beat some of the items (forms, etc). My site (<http://www.thetaboard.com>) is definitely 'built with bootstrap' but I don't think it gives off a 100% bootstrap vibe.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm bookmarking it and I'll feature it on my next post with the results from people :) thanks!

honestly, the forms, tables etc. those styles are okay with me. It's just that toolbar and buttons that goes against grain for me.

<comment><USER22> Another site I've seen in the wild Built with Bootstrap that was quite difficult to tell at first pass was Bright Nest. <http://brightnest.com/>

The Missouri Department of Conservation's E-Testing service for Hunter's Education also uses a customized version of Bootstrap, but it's pretty easy to tell it's Bootstrap. <http://www.hunter-ed.com/missouri/>

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll add these to my follow up post on what sites do use bootstrap but you can't tell

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Example of not bootstrappy bootstrap.

Here is a quick and simple site I did this weekend. I used bootstrap because of it's responsive design support. It makes it easy to create content that looks nice on desktops and mobile/tablet devices.

<http://patriciafreymd.com/>

It is pretty simple to make bootstrap not so bootstrappy, just view source and take a look at my inc.css file.

<comment><USER24> Why is it so narrow? 768 pixels at its widest isn't very responsive, only phones will not be wide enough (and even then only some phones).

<comment><USER23> The site was made 4 years ago using tables and images for titles. I just took the existing design and converted it to bootstrap, header tags, and paragraph tags. The titles are actual text now too.

I didn't make it any wider because there is not a lot of content to begin with. It just doesn't need a wide amount of real estate.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> My simple solution to prevent your site from looking "bootstrap-y" is to design a mockup of what you want to achieve first (in maybe photoshop or fireworks) then re-create that interface with bootstrap & make sure you use the design as a guide. Works every time.

Disclaimer: I'm a front-end designer.

<comment><USER26> That's the method I've tended to use, and it's worked great for me. The problem with starting from bootstrap is that it's incredibly well designed for specific purposes, and there's a fear that changing anything is making it worst for the sake of difference. By starting with the interaction design, not only can you cut down on the elements used from Bootstrap, you can find uniqueness and utility without losing too much.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> On one hand, its nice to have a one-of-a-kind site. But, I'm going to disagree that using a standard theme is a bad thing.

When I use a GUI one of the things I hate is when an app doesn't follow the look and feel of the system. This "skinz" disease ever trending upward.

So, I also tend to think every web site looking similar (and great) is a blessing. A lot of time can be saved trying to find your way around, and you'll know what to expect. The focus therefore falls to the content which was an original goal of the web.

There might not be as many design jobs open for secondary players, but it's happening all over these days, see the teachers vs. khan academy trend.

</comment><comment><USER28> Wrote a similar post while back if you're interested in learning more <http://blog.kippt.com/2012/04/26/building-with-bootstrap/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Ha! I didn't know you guys wrote about it too. Your site was halfway an inspiration for me to use bootstrap (rather than try to do my own thing) and customize it beyond recognition!

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I've said it before, but I like Zurb Foundation because I felt that I had to customize a few things from the get-go: <http://foundation.zurb.com/> (Not affiliated) And the built in responsive grid stuff is pretty nice, and you can still chose some of your own display components.

<comment><USER20> I should add that I think Twitter Bootstrap is perfect for building behind- the-firewall type of corporate/infrastructure apps. But using it bare on a public-facing marketing site?

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I feel like the tone of this post could have been less rage-filled and more informative. I also wasn't very impressed with the end result. It still looks extremely bootstrappy to me (not that I think that's a bad thing).

<comment><AUTHOR> Wait, what do you mean by end result? There really wasn't one, I posted screenshots of the applications I used to adjust bootstrap.

And yeah, I tend to write "passionately". I basically wrote this up after seeing five or six different apps using bootstrap -.- it gets really annoying, and I just can't stand it.

However, I'll take the suggestion of being informative over rage-filled to heart next time. Thanks!

<comment><USER30> I think the parent was talking about the screen shot with the big green rectangle in the center when he said "the end result". I, for one, thought the writing felt a bit rushed and perhaps overblown with the whole "you're lazy if you don't customize bootstrap" tone. But the tools you linked to seem like they're pretty useful, so I think you achieved your goal of raising awareness of how easy it is to customize bootstrap.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll keep that in mind. Didn't want it to sound like that. Unfortunately, the post arose from some frustration on my part. Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'm really really glad so many developers who are starting out are using bootstrap. It makes it a hell of a lot easier to get people up to speed when they join my team. It's awesome to have someone start learning your codebase and have an easy command of the templates out of the box because they've worked with that framework before.

Now, my company Artsicle.com has a bootstrap foundation but you'd never guess it. However, whining about a good UI that works on many browsers out of the box and provides easy responsiveness? Get over yourself.

</comment><comment><USER32> "Don't want to do it? Fine! Hire me. Seriously. You see that button on the right?"

Wonderful shameless self promotion! I don't see no reason to be shy about what you want with your blog posting.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks :) I originally didn't want to add it but I'm pretty strapped for hosting right now and it's supposed to renew. ;)

<comment><USER18> Yeah, your hosting is already crumbling under the pressure it seems. Site is very slow.

That said, I might need a designer in the near-ish future. Email is in my profile.

<comment><USER33> PROTIP: Cloudflare <https://www.cloudflare.com/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Already on it. Max caching and optimization. My hosting provider actually integrates directly with them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I've taken the opposite route for my project <http://iwaat.com>. The HTML/CSS is all done from scratch with several elements stolen from Bootstrap (ex. highlighting around form fields). It also uses a background image from subtle patterns which really made all the difference vs. plain white/grey. I'm sure this workflow took longer than building off of Bootstrap from the start but I like the way it turned out.

</comment><comment><USER35> Confused... In your article you state: "Second, I need something that I can develop quickly in without having to write any styles, my current work focuses on results rather than prettiness and UI (for all I know, they wouldn't mind straight HTML without CSS but that would make working on it hell for me)." Same reason people use the default Bootstrap theme.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I also iterate in the article that it's quite fine to develop in bootstrap default theme; however, I would appreciate if they could at least download one of the free themes or use a SLIGHTLY modified version of it. Cool thing is, (and I stated this) they can just drop the modified version in whenever they wish to once they're done with development.

</comment></comment><comment> at-fates-hands I'm wondering if this is a side effect of too many frameworks where developers have gotten so lazy, design is a total afterthought.

I actually thought the end result of this framework would've been the complete opposite of what's happening. Since developers have more time and resources, they'd take the time to experiment and put some real effort into a design.

</comment><comment><USER36> Meh, I'm currently guilty of using straight bootstrap styles with www.kangacruise.com

I also hate the UI, but I don't think these kinds of changes would be worth the marginal improvement. I know I'll never get what I _really_ want with these subtle changes, so I think I'm better off waiting until I can hire a designer.

</comment><comment><USER37> If, in 5 years time, 50% of the internet looked like default bootstrap.....this would not be a bad thing. At all.

</comment><comment><USER38> I'll take a bootstrap site over some janky unusable design I've seen plenty of programmers create.

<comment><AUTHOR> point taken and I whole-heartedly agree. But I wish the programmers could take that one extra step (those 10-30 extra minutes) and make it unique.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I customized Bootstrap on my website. Thing is, no one knows I'm using it because of the customization. I suppose you only notice the people who don't customize it, and assume because of that, no one customizes it?

</comment><comment><USER40> This seems like something a browser extension could resolve, at least partially. If you're a web designer, you can install this extension and then each bootstrap site would always use a random predefined CSS.

</comment><comment><USER41> An efficient way is to learn less, work with it on the client side and compile it from the command line to css, this can be a pain on windows, I'm going to make a youtube video describing it!

<comment><AUTHOR> I have a sublime text 2 plugin that builds it with a keyboard shortcut. Same with SASS :)

<comment><USER39> Take it one step further. Install SublimeOnSaveBuild and have it compile every time you save a less or sass file.

<comment><AUTHOR> will do

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> One of the things I did on my Boostrap'd site, is to make the button corners sharp instead of rounded. That makes a big difference in making it look less Bootstrap'y. See fandalism.com

</comment><comment><USER43> We use Bootswatch and are really pleased with the results (www.milelogr.com). It appears to be broken with BS 2.1, but i haven't taken the time to see what broke.

</comment><comment><USER44> I haven´t used Bootstrap, but Hacker News Community always impulse to test the "new" ways and technologies for solve the "problems". So get one's hands dirty!

</comment><comment><USER45> Is there an easy way to preview bootstrap after you customize the variables? A quick and dirty preview, maybe?

<comment><AUTHOR> The only way to do that is to use Boottheme. Boot theme does a great job because it gives you all the responsive views, and different layouts. You can also edit html on the site to see what it would look like.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Great to use this page as a resource of all the tools the community has built around extending boostrap.

</comment><comment><USER47> Thanks so much for the resources. I knew of a few, but the rest helped a lot!

</comment><comment><USER48> Anyone with experience starting with a Bootstrap theme then handing it over to a designer to see what they come up with?</comment>