Show HN: Generate React forms from JSON form schemas - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/SteveVitali/react-form-generator <comment><USER2> I would strongly recommend that anyone looking into something like this first look at JSON Schema[1], which is a pretty widely adopted standard. We're doing server and client validation with one set of rules, and there are lots of libraries that will clean up your data given a schema.

[1] [http://json-schema.org/examples.html](http://json- schema.org/examples.html)

<comment><USER3> I second this.

On our backend we have a main service in Python and a few micro-services in Node. All of the JSON data flying between these services has JSON Schema definitions.

We've built some express.js and wsgi middleware so that for a given route you can specify "Requests to this endpoint should follow schema {} responses from this endpoint should follow schema {}." Our middleware then validates all requests and responses against these schema. This works really well for us.

<comment><USER4> That sounds nice. At my shop we have all of that except the live validation, and schemas almost inevitably fall behind.

What happens when the validation fails? Also, which end does the validation, providers or consumers?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Whoa, this is pretty cool. People have been trying to do this for ages. If they've been analyzing how people code, they have some valuable data to develop from. I hope they make it!

I once made a programming language with a tree editor: [https://youtu.be/w5-g0Hps6bA](https://youtu.be/w5-g0Hps6bA)

I had anyfix operators, so it was possible to write a program that read like english. In fact, I once got someone to write the sqrt function (inspired by the SICP) in Japanese: [https://youtu.be/vwgvVpCRecE](https://youtu.be/vwgvVpCRecE)

I think this is really promising to introduce people to programming. How many times have you heard someone say "programming is so frustrating! I always misplace my semicolon." Also, not having syntax means that people can use DSLs without having the pain to learn its syntax.

<comment><USER6> I think you may have meant to post this on the tree based editor post?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm doing something similar with serializing django forms and sending them to a react app that turns the json into a form. It's a really convenient way of doing things.

<comment><USER8> Really sorry, down voted you by mistake with a loose finger. App I use has moved the vote buttons right where I scroll.

<comment><USER7> no prob I'm here for the discussion, not the karma

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> See also tcomb-form [1] with it's tcomb-json-schema plugin [2].

We're currently using react-forms with a custom json-schema to react-forms schema conversion.

[1] [https://github.com/gcanti/tcomb-form](https://github.com/gcanti/tcomb- form) [2] [https://github.com/gcanti/tcomb-json- schema](https://github.com/gcanti/tcomb-json-schema)

<comment><USER10> tcomb-form is the most elegant solution I've seen to this problem in React. Really nice to use.

<comment><USER11> Hi, author here. Thanks for your kind words :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I just started learning React and it's great how libraries like these are almost making the construction of front-end web components into a DSL via JSON schemas.

</comment><comment><USER13> Was working on a similar project that I never managed to finish. I think this is a really useful tool. One thing missing is custom input widgets.

</comment><comment><USER14> Maybe I am missing something but how are they dealing with dates?

<comment><USER15> I would assume by using ISO 8601 dates which is the closest thing there is to a standard date format in JSON.

<comment><USER16> i-JSON[1] (internet JSON a/k/a interoperable JSON) has a standard date format. Not surprisingly, it's based on ISO 8601.

1: [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7493](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7493)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Meteor js had this with the aldeed:autoform package ages ago

</comment><comment><USER18> This is pretty amazing. Is it all auto-recursive?

</comment><comment> r-cid Cool. Unit tests would be nice.</comment>


Ask HN: What's a good POP3/IMAP provider - <AUTHOR>

I have a very precise need: I need a server to receive e-mails sent @mydomain.com and forward them to another inbox.
I was relying on Namecheap, my registrar, to do it as they offer it for free. However, they failed today and it jeopardized my entire web services, so I'm trying to move to a more specialized service.
I already set up a Google Apps account, but as a temporary/emergency solution: it will only be up for the 30 days free trial. I really _only_ need the e-mail forwarding feature and not the entire GApps suite, so I don't see myself becoming a GApps customer just for that.
So I was wondering: what do folks on HN use to receive and process their e-mails? Is there any POP3/IMAP as-a-service thingy that would be known/reliable? <comment><USER2> Rackspace Mail. It's Rackspace. The big high-end service guys with the 24/7/365 live support (phone/chat/email, even 4AM on Christmas Eve). Except their e-mail service is cheap at $10/month for 5 mailboxes ($2/mailbox after that). They give you a 100% uptime SLA. I have used them for my domains for many years, and there has never been an outage.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Postkmarkapp (postmarkapp.com) is also providing such a thing. Just like Mandrill, they don't let you forward it to any inbox; however, I was already using them to process the e-mails and send a JSON payload to a webhook of mine, so it solves my problem apparently. I just hope their uptime is decent.

</comment><comment><USER3> I use Zoho:

\- nice interface

\- native mobile apps for iOS and Android

\- support for multiple domains and aliases

\- Free for a single domain or $24/year per user for 10GB

[https://www.zoho.com/mail/](https://www.zoho.com/mail/)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I've dug a bit in my Mandrill account and they seem to have such a feature (although it's advertised exactly nowhere). I'll give it a try too.

Update: Mandrill receives e-mail, but then only lets you POST a payload to a webhook. No e-mail forwarding.

</comment><comment><USER4> Tools from previous discussions: [http://www.hackertoolbox.com/tags/email%20hosting](http://www.hackertoolbox.com/tags/email%20hosting)

</comment><comment><USER5> Fastmail would probably be a good suggestion.

<comment><AUTHOR> So I assume it would be their $40/year plan as I need to use a custom domain. I've never heard of them before; did you use them? Happy/any feedback?

Edit: apparently they also have "family" and business plans, which seem more suited, but without trials.

<comment><USER6> I've been with them for years and I can't remember a single outage longer than minutes. I'm sure they've had them, but in my experience, Fastmail is 100% reliable, and will continue to get my money until they prove otherwise.

<comment><AUTHOR> sounds like what I'm after. Have you had the chance to benchmark it with anything over the years? I'm just curious about the competition at this point

<comment><USER6> It's always worked for my purely IMAP workflow, so I've never bothered trying anything else. It's my personal mail, so I never really end up sending or receiving LARGENUM mails through them.

Personally, I don't notice a difference between them and my work IMAP servers, which have been Google Apps and some Oracle thing.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: This Like Button farts. - <AUTHOR> http://corrupt.ch/fartbutton

<comment><USER2> Fun idea. I'm worried that you may be sued or something though; isn't that design sort of "Facebook's" property?

</comment><comment><USER3> Not as satisfying as [http://instantfart.com/](http://instantfart.com/)</comment>


FreeNAS 9.10 Released (NAS OS based on FreeBSD 10.3) - <AUTHOR> http://www.freenas.org/blog/freenas-910-released/ <comment><USER2> A few bits of advice to those considering this... I had a 12-drive setup a few years ago, it eventually crashed and burned, because of several errors on my part. (surrounding ZFS)

Use a MB with ECC Ram (Asus + AMD seems to be the most cost effective option here). Also, you should max out the ram on the board, especially if you're aiming for a raid z2 array of more than 10GB (I did max my ram, but didn't go ECC).

Source the same drive from as many places as possible to try to get different mfg runs. I had really bad luck here, about 3/4 of the seagate drives I'd purchased died in under 2 years... The drive model itself had a really poor quality and many people had issues with these drives dying a short death.

Ensure your "hot spare" drives work... I'd configured for 2 hot spare drives, however, there was a bug in the version of FreeNAS I was using that caused the hot spares to not go into usage automatically.

Make sure that anything important on your NAS is backed up... if it's _only_ on the NAS, that is not a backup. Hardware can and will fail. I tend to not consider something backed up unless it is in at least 3 copies and at least 2 different locations.

Overall, it was just a piss-poor experience, in the end I went back to Synology for my NAS usage... I spent a lot of money in hopes of having a close to "final" NAS solution, with a lot of defective hardware, a lot of failures, and in general, my "backup" NAS was more reliable. There's something to be said for buying a solution vs. DIY.

I might consider it again in a few years, but am more likely to just get a 5-8 drive product over DIY again. Drives have gotten a lot larger... at the time I went with 3TB, and 4TB were just starting to come out.

</comment><comment><USER3> That's quite a feat, releasing something based on FreeBSD 10.3 before the release of FreeBSD 10.3. :)

<comment><USER4> FreeBSD 10.3 is in the "release builds" phase. See: [https://www.freebsd.org/releases/10.3R/schedule.html](https://www.freebsd.org/releases/10.3R/schedule.html)

Barring anything crazy, I imagine it will be officially released in a couple of days.

<comment><USER3> I probably should have mentioned that, but I guess I was trying too hard to be pithy. When I looked, a 10.3-RELEASE branch/tag didn't exist, but based on the schedule and last commit I assumed the source was frozen.

Anyway, I was only half-joking; it actually is fairly impressive to be able to leapfrog the FreeBSD process in this way, even if some of the difference comes down to differing requirements and priorities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If it's interesting to anyone, I evaluated a few NAS software and landed on Unraid, which is not as popular, but quite nice. It's not free (but it's cheap), but the way I can easily expand storage and Docker support sealed the deal for me.

</comment><comment><USER6> I've been contemplating using FreeNAS, but I'm always confused by the product release information. It's written for those who already use the product, rather than those who are considering it.

To me, the ideal announcement would read something like this:

\- This product is based on FreeBSD 10.3

\- This product adds the following features (e.g. GUI system admin) ...

\- This product improves the following standard FreeBSD ports ...

\- This product is available on the FreeNAS Mini NAS appliance ...

etc

Otherwise, it's hard to know if I should try FreeNAS or just try plain vanilla FreeBSD for a file server I want to build.

<comment><USER7> Aren't product release announcements usually just a changelog with some self- congratulatory boilerplate on top? Thats what I expect at least.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've been using nas4free for a while now (which used to be called freenas before a fork).

Can somebody who has tried both compare the state of the two projects?

<comment><USER9> FreeNAS has a commercial company behind it, with a real product and money to back the project with (just as RedHat with their projects) while nas4free is a open source project. I've chosen FreeNAS and its doing its job well to this day (backups, few seervices like SMB/CIFS, plex server and what's most important, software containers).

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Did anyone fork the project when it was based on Linux?

<comment><USER11> Is there a related word to fork that means "to make an inferior descendant"?

<comment><USER12> Single letter change

<comment><USER13> dork?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Comparison of California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA) and GDPR [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://www.bakerlaw.com/webfiles/Privacy/2018/Articles/CCPA-GDPR-Chart.pdf <comment><USER2> This law frequently refers to "selling consumers' personal information". But hardly any company actually sells personal information. Google doesn't sell your personal information, Facebook doesn't sell your personal information. Companies use your personal information to match you to advertising, not to sell the information directly. So laws forbidding the sale of personal information sort of pointless.

At first I thought that this PDF was just describing the proposed law in an inaccurate manner. But no, the CCPA really does talk a lot about "selling your personal information". [https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/privacy/ccpa-p...](https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/privacy/ccpa- proposed-regs.pdf)

<comment><USER3> This is a great point that often gets glossed over in these discussions. Facebook and Google primarily get value from your personal information by hoarding it and treating both it and the data they derive from it as proprietary.

<comment><USER4> The last time I used Google Takeout to download my data I got all my emails, custom maps, YouTube uploads etc., as one might expect, but what I couldn't find were:

* all the URLs I've visited with my Google cookie loaded

* all the searches I've ever done

* all the ads I've clicked on.

I know ad tech mechanics can be counter intuitive but I'm surprised they don't have that information for me to download, especially when ads and search are the primary Google functions.

Maybe these logs are pseudonymized in such a way that google can't tie them to my identity?

<comment><USER5> They're technically not linked to your Google account I believe, [https://policies.google.com/technologies/anonymization?hl=en](https://policies.google.com/technologies/anonymization?hl=en) (although we've seen how anonymized data can still be de-anonymized [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20513521](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20513521) )

<comment><USER4> Thanks, that's useful and interesting. Good on Google for keeping the two activities (and cookies) separate.

[Edit: oof, I found my search history after all so most of this is moot. It's under "Other Google Activity" ... "Web & App Activity". I guess it would be nice to see the words "Search Activity" a little more prominently, but still, my bad.]

I can't help but feeling that both cookies (and their associated histories) count equally as personal data.

Anyone who gets hold of my devices can use the cookies to get my history. _I_ can use the cookies to get some of my history in some form or other (I can't get my own search history, but I can see it partially in typeaheads on the desktop site.)

It feels half hearted that I can't pull up the entire dataset, but then I would surely be grateful that no one else can do the same thing if they steal my login.

(I also accept that some of this is just me arrogantly pushing back on being told "no!" by Auntie Google, when I feel entitled to a yes.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I thought CCPA was California's GDPR, but it seems to offer consumers very little protection.

CCPA does not restrict the collection or processing of personal data for marketing purposes. You can't even opt-out. Companies like BounceX will still be able to deanonymize 40% of consumer web visitors for direct marketing. You can only opt-out from your data being sold. And how are you supposed to know when a company is selling your data? The company is not required to tell you – you have to ask.

GDPR the other hand is entirely opt-in. Companies cannot collect or process personal information unless given explicit consent. And that's a big deal – the rate of consent is so low that many marketing projects have a negative ROI and companies stop working on them.

Enforcement will likely be weak. CCPA introduces civil penalties so consumers can sue companies, or join class action suits, but it will be difficult for a consumer to know when a business is violating CCPA, so this will be rare. California's AG can bring action, but there isn't a very strong incentive for them to do so with the exception of high-profile, politicized cases.

<comment><USER6> GDPR is NOT entirely opt-in. For reasons of 'legitimate interest' a consent- less collection is warranted (ie. to perform the service). Yes, this does usually excludes data collection for marketing purposes. But it's important to state that it's not Entirely opt-in.

<comment><AUTHOR> If the collection is truly necessary to provide a service, and the consumer has decided (opted in) to use that service, it seems pretty reasonable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> CCPA is certainly a headache at work and brought in consulting to assist but I hope it spreads beyond California and more! As a consumer I want to be able to opt out of any/all data collection related to my personal details. Fully support it regardless of the "costs" it brings to the company. Data should have been regulated from the get go.

<comment><USER8> Microsoft has stated they will honor CCPA nationwide. I would expect other tech companies to follow until national regulation catches up.

<comment><USER9> Many companies have adopted a one-size fits all approach, whereby the most restrictive legislation applies, regardless of jurisdiction where they do business. This reduces costs by minimizing duplication where possible. I suspect Microsoft's approach was likely driven in part by the additional costs needed to support two compliance regimes for their various products.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm still struggling to find out what exactly is required for mobile apps in particular. Our legal team (very big company) told us we have to add a link to our Privacy Policy on every screen of our app, so hundreds. Where can I find things like requirements on those, or is it just really vague?

<comment><USER11> That sounds like overkill but IANAL. You should only need to post the disclosures _before_ the info is collected, _where_ the info is collected.

Shameless plug: we put together a more readable version of the CCPA with all the amendments incorporated here [1] and an outline of the _proposed_ enforcement regulations here [2]

[1] [https://hq.services/blog/ccpa-full-text-with- amendments/](https://hq.services/blog/ccpa-full-text-with-amendments/)

[2] [https://hq.services/blog/ccpa-proposed- regulations/](https://hq.services/blog/ccpa-proposed-regulations/)</comment></comment>


Portal: Personal Onion Router to Assure Liberty - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/grugq/portal <comment><USER2> In general, this isn't the best idea. If you force all your traffic through Tor you increase the chances that you're going to have an opsec fail. Loads of stuff talks to loads of other stuff in the background all the time. Checking your email or refreshing your social media feed or whatever.

When you use TAILS, only applications that are aware of Tor will be using Tor and other applications just go nowhere.

Tor Browser is a great example for explaining the separation between application layer and network layer anonymity. The tor client gives you network layer anonymity while Tor Browser gives you scrubbing of cookies and anti-fingerprinting. Using another browser, or other applications in general that do not try to provide application layer anonymity, with Tor wouldn't protect against all the application layer attacks and so you end up with less (or no) protection.

<comment><AUTHOR> I see where you're coming from but neither tor-browser, tails or a portal is going to protect users that don't rtfm. If you use the tor-browser you still want to avoid checking email or starting services over that same channel that will leak your identity. this are basic tor guidelines and the documentation even warns users of this.

the typical users for a portal are people with prior training of opsec (yes you need to train opsec all the time because it's not just the tools but your whole workflow that's gonna trip you up) and a _real_ use-case.

I assume if you use this you won't make such rookie mistakes like having services running that will leak identity. It's perfect for journalists, activists or anyone else that already uses hardware based compartmentalization. This is an additional layer - not a silver bullet. I really assume a portal user already knows what things to isolate, which processes may run, what part of their work (during an operation) needs to be airgap'ed and hence shouldn't go through a portal ...

<comment><AUTHOR> PS: I'd trust hardware based compartmentalization like this any day over the QubesOS nonsense.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Just a thought,IC and Law Enforcement control a large number of Tor nodes.

Even if Tor has no deanonymization risks,the fact that you use Tor makes you a bright red target -- by Feds and Local cops! (In US). Unless you use bridges(and even then) your ISP and Law enforcement will have you (or the subscriber of the ISP connection) listed as a Tor user. Think of it as driving on the road,you can drive a "pimped up" cadillac bouncing it all over the street -- and you have the right to do so -- but you will get pulled over and searched a lot,and hopefully all your encounters with LE will be harmless but it might not be so.

Just because they leave you alone,don't assume it's because they are not monitoring you.

<comment><USER4> What if you want to use Tor, not because you have something to hide, but to make it easier for everyone to be anonymous?

edit: punctuation

<comment><USER3> Then you accept the risk associated with it. For people who need anonymity,I'd say a TLS vpn which isn't publicly listed as such would be ideal imo. My opinion is that anonymity isn't absolute and if you care about your use of anonymozing services to remain unknown as much as you want the resources you access with them to remain a secrect then the protocol should blend in with normal traffic.

Consider a place like n korea,if they see someone connectig to a Tor node,that person is screwed even if he only watched cat videos with it. Or maybe even in the US,imagine a court case where your innocent usage of Tor is used to into question the legitimacy of your private activities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It worries me to find this in the repo:

                  -- No logs - No crime --

See [https://github.com/grugq/portal/blob/master/openwrt-35017-to...](https://github.com/grugq/portal/blob/master/openwrt-35017-to- portal.diff#L156)

<comment><AUTHOR> then why use tor in the first place, if you got nothing to hide?

logs may incriminate you even your own country protects you. think e.g. panama-leaks or other stuff that an activist or journalist might come across in your research ... also can you trust your own law enforcement not to be corrupt? how about if you know things connected to organized crime, ... in that case if you're based in the same jurisdiction as the mobster and e.g. you stole a couple of gig worth of incriminating material would you go to the police? it's pretty clear that you wouldn't want any logs.

I live in a country where the highest ranking politicians are fully in the hands of the mob. here a speeding ticket can be solved with a small "tip". Word of advise: don't ever trust the state to protect you. Also don't ever talk to cops no matter where in the world you're living (even less so if you're not guilty! this is first advise every lawyer will give you too).

<comment><USER5> It's not that I have nothing to hide. I close the door before I use the toilet. This tool specifically promotes hiding crimes. Mix questionable ethics with no updates in six years and it's likely to taste off and stale.

<comment><AUTHOR> you're suggesting questionable ethics but presumably missed the point that @thegrugq is one of the biggest thinkers in OpSec today.

thegrugq threads [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=thegrugq&sort=byPopularity&pre...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=thegrugq&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=all)

insinuating criminal content and questionable ethics, or conjecturing he is a nation state actor, when you seem to be utterly unfamiliar with his work isn't fair tbh

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A friend of mine did this himself, a wireless router with TLS security and a double TOR circuit.

Meaning he doubles the first circuit over another circuit. I have no idea if that increases security but I'm sure it affects performance.

He's built these little routers for over a year for himself and others but never published anything.

<comment><USER7> Tor-over-Tor is less secure than Tor by itself, because the circuits are not aware of each other and it is possible to reuse your first connections entry as your second connections exit.

i.e. A->-B->C, then the second connection becomes D->-E->A. This would allow A to de-anonymize you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Note - the Github project hasn't been updated in 6yrs.

<comment><USER8> One of the chipped routers is still available:

[https://smile.amazon.com/TP-Link-TL-WR703N-Wireless- iphone4-...](https://smile.amazon.com/TP-Link-TL-WR703N-Wireless- iphone4-android/dp/B005VEJ3GM)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm interested in doing something similar, but just routing all my home network traffic through an Algo VPN server I spun up on DigitalOcean (except Netflix and Amazon video).

I know there are tutorials online for setting this up against an OpenVPN server, but I haven't found any for Algo that allow exceptions for some destination IPs (Netflix, etc.).

</comment><comment><USER10> This is terrible. A lot of applications leak personal data including MAC address and public IP address.

Only use applications that are specifically designed to run on Tor!

Finally, Tor is meant to protect users only from nosy ISPs and websites that track IP address and browser fingerprint.

</comment><comment><USER11> Note the developer, grugq.</comment>


MONOPRICE RELEASES THEIR MINI DELTA PRINTER (ON INDIEGOGO) - <AUTHOR> http://hackaday.com/2017/05/17/monoprice-releases-their-mini-delta-printer-on-indiegogo/ <comment><AUTHOR> I thought this was really interesting, because a 3d printer at $159 is nearly in impulse buy territory, and features like auto-bed leveling make it much easier for a novice to pick up a printer and start using it immediately.

Link to the discussion on Reddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/6bofq6/monopric...](https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/6bofq6/monoprice_mini_delta_to_be_released_on_indiegogo/)</comment>


Lego: Patching up a wall near you - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.co.uk/wired-magazine/archive/2010/08/play/lego-patching-up-a-wall-near-you

<comment> daniel-cussen I may someday try to fix a regular wall this way and paint/apply plaster over the legos.</comment>


Do you agree with these best practises for managing EC2? - <AUTHOR> http://www.slideshare.net/guestd0b61e/amazon-ec2-application-design

<comment><USER2> This presentation seems pretty outdated with regards to Amazon specifics. The Ideal Advanced Tools section lists many things that are provided by CloudWatch:

* Should incorporate auto-scaling configuration services as remediation of performance/load events

* Should incorporate standards-based performance monitoring services

* Allow for automated provisioning of EC2 instances

* Should allow for auto-scaling based on dynamic load evaluation functions

and it also doesn't list RDS which should be included since it talks about running DBs on AWS. The more general advice seems like it's still valid, but with the rapid rate of change for cloud services it's important to keep up to date about what features are offered by cloud providers.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thanks Amock for the check list. If I find a more recent presentation I will post it.</comment>


Amazon Flow appears on the iPhone - <AUTHOR> http://a9.com/-/company/flow.jsp

<comment><USER2> Wow. 5 for 5 on items in the office (windows office, a dvd, apple keyboard, mouse, and a coffee machine box).

It shows the price, the # of stars, and whether Prime is available. Also, the fact that it automatically saves the image is a great touch. You don't have to press a single button. You point it at things and it just works.

A thoroughly well executed app in all respects. The team that did this knows what they are doing. I could see using this in my daily life. Very well done.

</comment><comment><USER3> This works really well. Tried it on a couple dozen books around the house. Pretty much 100% recognition on everything new enough to currently be in print. It failed to recognize a lot of out-of-print stuff, but that's to be expected.

It seems to be that if there's a picture of Amazon of the item, it will work.

</comment><comment><USER4> Interesting. It does surprisingly well on some things--just a glance at "The Complete Calvin and Hobbes" box identified it. And it does surprisingly bad on some things--a Diet Pepsi from a co-workers desk was identified as a Camo Gladitator II Heavy Duty Belt Clip Carrying Case for various Samsung phones.

</comment><comment><USER5> So awesome. I think it's still got a ways to go.. I played with it and it did great on books, not awesome at reading barcodes. I'd love to see it get to the point where I could point it at my coffee cup or trackball. I don't imagine that's all that far off. Really, really cool app. Bummer for the metalab folks that Amazon decided to call it flow though!

</comment><comment><USER6> If it links to the Amazon store, does that mean Apple is getting a cut of all sales made through the app?

</comment><comment><USER7> If anyone here would like to implement their own apps that utilize image search, check out <http://moodstocks.com>. I've been playing around with it, and the results are very accurate.

</comment><comment><USER8> There's a mention of the App Store, but no link. For the lazy: [http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/flow-powered-by- amazon/id4746...](http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/flow-powered-by- amazon/id474664425?mt=8)

<comment><USER9> The link is at the bottom; click either the icon or "free download".

<comment><USER8> That must have changed quickly; I _swear_ when I first looked, neither were links. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It works pretty well! Tried it on some DVDs, they were all recognized.

</comment><comment><USER11> Amazon Goggles

<comment><USER12> Can anyone familiar with both this and Google Goggles comment on whether there's any notable differences, or whether this is indeed pretty much Amazon's version of Google's Goggles or Bing Vision on WinPhone?

<comment><USER13> I did a simple test of Amazon Flow vs Google Goggles. The main difference was that Flow linked to the product page where Goggles gave a link to a picture of the product.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Is there an API for something similar available? It would be pretty cool to not limit this to phones.

</comment><comment><USER15> Surprised there is no android app considering the fire tablet runs on backend android?

<comment><USER16> Well, the Fire has no camera, as far as I can tell, which is a requirement for Flow to work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> It doesn't show up in the App store for my ipod.

<comment><USER17> Update: it does now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> FYI - Not available in Australian App Store.</comment>


C5 Instances for EC2 Now Available - <AUTHOR> https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/now-available-compute-intensive-c5-instances-for-amazon-ec2/ <comment><USER2> Intertwined with this announcement of an new instance type, is that it uses a non-Xen hypervisor.

Has anyone booted one yet? Is it KVM or something from scratch that AWS wrote?

<comment><USER3> What's the benefit of KVM over Xen these days?

<comment><USER4> KVM can take better advantage of hardware acceleration than Xen. Xen requires a modified guest, which traps back to the host more frequently.

<comment><USER5> Is that true with the newer modes? [https://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Understanding_the_Virtualization_S...](https://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Understanding_the_Virtualization_Spectrum)

<comment><USER4> This is based on a cursory examination of [1], so I may be off-base. But Xen appears to rely on the host for many things that can be, and often are, hardware accelerated in KVM. Searching for CONFIG_XEN_PVHVM, it doesn't appear to cover much.

[1] [https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/xen/](https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/xen/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> No pricing info on c5 or whether c4 has changed in either the blog post or [https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/on- demand](https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/on-demand)

<comment><USER7> The pricing is out: [https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/on- demand/](https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/on-demand/)

Note, that you will need to select Northern Virginia, Oregon or Ireland to see C5 prices. By default (at least for me) the pricing page loads Ohio, which doesn't have C5 yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Really happy to see even small versions of these instances having large NICs.

</comment><comment><USER5> Interesting that Amazon is charging less for Skylake than Broadwell while the list prices for Skylake are higher. I guess Intel really wants you to move to the cloud.

<comment><USER9> Skylake should be more energy efficient and denser (cores/rack) than Broadwell, so it makes sense for them to be cheaper.

Also, I wouldn't assume Amazon pays anything close to list price, or even necessarily runs publicly announced parts.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm a little bit surprised that Amazon are mapping vCPUs to HyperThreads, instead of to cores. It seems to me like, if this is targeted at compute- intensive workloads, that it may be overcommitting a bit. Or is there recent research saying that an HT thread is equivalent to a core for compute- intensive workloads?

<comment><USER11> > Or is there recent research saying that an HT thread is equivalent to a core > for compute-intensive workloads?

This is a fun question. Processors that have hyperthreading duplicate the parts of the CPU needed to maintain state, but they don't duplicate the parts that run the actual logic. So if you compare a single core hyperthreaded processor with a dual core processor without hyperthreading the dual core one will be faster.

However it gets a bit more complicated than that. Oftentimes processors sit idle while waiting for the rest of the system to catch up- for instance it may have to wait for memory to get loaded from RAM. Processors with hyperthreading see a boost in performance here because they can run the second thread while waiting for the operations needed to run the first thread- thus making these processors about 30% more efficient.

So while more cores are definitly better, if you are comparing two processors with the same number of cores and all else is equal the ones with hyperthreading will perform better.

One thing to note is that AWS provides vCPUs in pairs, so even though they are giving you the number of threads you can always be sure you're getting individual cores along with them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> > These instances designed for compute-heavy applications like [...], highly > scalable multiplayer gaming

Is he referring to specific titles? It's been a while, but to me, the max lobby size for multiplayer games was stuck at ~70 concurrent players (sending all updates to everyone is n^2).

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm tired of updating my CloudFormation templates with the new instance types every month.

Can AWS provide CFN template with all valid instance types, that I can import in a CFN?

Maybe some other programmatic way as an API or CLI, i.e.:

        aws ec2 describe-instance-types

</comment><comment><USER14> Price please.

<comment><USER15> [https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/](https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/)

Be sure to pick a region where they're available, like us-east-1.</comment></comment>


Liquid electrolytes for high-energy fluoride ion cells - <AUTHOR> http://science.sciencemag.org/content/362/6419/1144 <comment><USER2> I think this has great potential, not only because of the performance, but because it's not made of the very expensive and very rare lithium.</comment>


My interview with murderer Hans Reiser - <AUTHOR> http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/07/09/hans_reiser/

<comment><USER2> "Everything Hans said reinforced the image I already had of him. He wasn't interested in what was true, only in whether or not he had been treated fairly."

I think that being treated fairly is a pretty important point. It's pretty obvious now that he was guilty; but, from what I've read, at the time of the trial the prosecution didn't come close to meeting their burden.

I would prefer to have a system where everyone is treated fairly, and some guilty men go free.

Robert Nozick raised an interesting question about this problem. Any system of determining guilt has some false positive rate (let's call it X). You can trivially cut X in half by flipping a coin after determining a person's guilt and only actually considering them guilty if the coin is heads.

I've always heard that it's better to let 10 guilty men go than let one innocent man go to jail. What about 11? 15? 100? 1000? Assuming we can accurately gauge our current jury system's effectiveness (and we can at least come up with a reasonable lower bound using appeal data), it would be trivial to achieve whatever ratio we desired using a simple RNG. So, what's the magic number (1:10, etc.)? And should we do so?

And yes, the reporter was being a total asshole.

<comment><USER3> _from what I've read, at the time of the trial the prosecution didn't come close to meeting their burden_

I think the only people qualified to decide that were the members of the jury. The vast majority of the rest of us had only hearsay to go on.

<comment><USER4> I believe the transcript of the trial is public record.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I gotta say it: the guy was a f-cking murderer and yet you guys are arguing about whether he got a fair trial, even _after_ he led the cops to the strangled, decomposing corpse. And then complaining about the sheer brass neck of a journo who fails to show appropriate respect to this f-cking murderer. What, just because he hacked on Linux once upon a time? Jeez, you really couldn't make this stuff up.

<comment><USER2> It has nothing to do with him being a linux coder. It doesn't really matter who you are, you should be given a fair trial. And, this was simply a piece of bad reporting - regardless of who the suspect was.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is journalism so bad it makes me sympathize with Reiser. No, you don't lie to the people you interview, and no, the fact that someone murdered his wife does not make it okay to lie to them, either. And when people "read what was written and their reflection punches them in the face", most of the time it isn't "their reflection" that punches them in the face so much as the journalist's bad work. Which is exactly why every interviewee should ask to see the manuscript before it's published, and if the journalist tells you "it doesn't work that way", don't consent to the interview.

<comment><USER7> Its from salon though... Gotta be reputable. This is the kind of news that HN has been missing though! We need to be more like reddit and digg!

<comment><USER8> Please for the love of sweet zombie jesus, tell me that was sarcasm.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The author Elliott is miserable, negative, hateful, boastful and self- righteous. Don't forget (now there's a patronizing phrase, as if anyone forgets the obvious) that the article is entitled, "MY, MY, MY (not someone else's: MY) Interview with (that god damned) murderer Hans Reiser." The article is about Elliott's feelings, primarily. Who cares? Elliott has the psychological insight of a paramecium.

To be fair, Elliott's hatred of Reiser is a little further up the phylogenetic tree, at least on the invertebrate branch. Other than that, the article doesn't say much about the crime or the trial, about Reiser's marriage to a venal Russian bride, or much of anything else. What we do learn is that Elliott is an opportunist who hung around Reiser's trial, managed to get an interview, and gets miffed because Reiser didn't give him what he wanted. The whole purpose was to give readers enough of a bad taste to purchase his book. Elliott is so unsympathetic, he unintentionally forces the reader's identification with Reiser when he turns his back to Elliott and asks the guard to be returned to his cell.

</comment><comment><USER10> That journalist is an arrogant and ignorant asshole, he reaches conclusions - that he then states as if they were fact - about Reiser's personality as if he were a trained psychologist/psychiatrist, and as if he has studied and analyzed the subject.

Every bone in my body wants to projectile vomit upon reading that crud.

I find it to be just another case of math envy, the imbecile KNOWS that he could never in a million years achieve 1% of what Reiser has achieved, however Reiser is now a convicted murderer, thus the idiot can now feel better about himself, and hurl contempt and scorn on Reiser.

I also find the general tone of the article to be awful insidious.

<comment><AUTHOR> Contempt and scorn are appropriate feelings to have for murderers.

I thought this article was interesting because the author had spent a lot of time watching Reiser in court and might be speaking some truth about Reiser's personality.

Is there anyone here that knew Reiser more intimately than this journalist, and could give us some feedback?

<comment><USER11> _"Contempt and scorn are appropriate feelings to have for murderers."_

Oh really? What about those trained to kill? Such as those in the military?

This is a tangent, but I'm curious...

<comment><AUTHOR> The definition of murder as "the unlawfully killing of a human with malice aforethought" is a good one that applies well to Hans Reiser and shows the importance of motivation in determining whether or not someone is a criminal.

When soldiers are learning to kill an enemy that may not even exist, they have very different motivations when compared to someone that is planning to kill a personal enemy.

I believe that both individuals and nations have the right of self-defense, so I don't hold contempt for anyone that is learning to kill in order to defend himself or the people he has a responsibility to defend.

<comment><USER11> Hmm. That is a good point.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Your question made me really think.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Is anyone using the non Pro/Air Macbook for iOS app development? - <AUTHOR> The current non Pro/Air Macbook appears to have the performance of a 2015 MBP in many respects, so in theory it should be a viable laptop to develop iOS apps on.  It can be built with i5 or i7 CPU, 16GB RAM, and adequate storage that has better performance than was possible just a few years ago...
The HN crowd is vast and active, so there must be a number of people with direct current experience developing iOS apps with the standard Macbook.
What are your thoughts? <comment><USER2> I use an 2016 Macbook i7/8GB as my daily development system. I love it. It's light and portable, which is important for me.

The main thing to understand about these machines is that the i7 CPUs are about as good as any other CPU on the market (aside from less cores), but they're fanless which means they rely on the case to dissipate heat, and so will thermally throttle during long-running high CPU jobs. They're perfect for short lived jobs, even multi-minute compilations, but will have a hard time getting through repeated long jobs that require long durations of high CPU.In short, great for bursty computations with longer idle times where the laptop has a chance to cool off.

For instance, I build brew packages, full llvm builds, even small ML models, etc, without problems, because the machine starts cold and there is enough time after the job is done for the machine to cool off again. My machine suffers on tasks like Docker+Kubernetes/minikube that run a constantly polling VM in the background that takes 25-100% CPU when running idle.

For instance, someone in this thread mentioned the iOS emulator might be difficult to run. This may not be true, so long as the emulator does not constantly use lots of CPU - if it just uses high CPU in response to input events, it will likely be fine.

</comment><comment><USER3> After my MacBook Air 11 met an untimely end at the hands of a United flight attendant (they paid for its replacement), I moved up to a had-to-have-it-now 8GB MacBook.

Even though it's not an Xcode complaint per se, the single USB-C port has been a real sticking point. Took about 3 months and 5 purchases to find an adapter that would let me run dual external displays, keyboard/mouse, •and• charge at the same time. Magsafe 2 had its drawbacks but I really miss it.

It's slower than I'd like, so I do my daily driving on a desktop, leaving it for on-the-road sorts of work, which it's capable of doing, though the screen makes dragging from storyboard to code a challenge on occasion.

<comment><USER4> What happened with the flight attendant? I'm flying United soon first time, kind of nervous lol (won't be using my laptop on the plane but will be in my bag)

<comment><USER3> It was on a 3-hour "United Express" flight and about 20 minutes in, she poured an entire cup of water on the open laptop. It wasn't bumpy, and she was very apologetic, but I needed that laptop working to make a deadline, and instead spent the next 3 hours with a wet lap (the one lav was very popular) and nothing to do but stare forward once my phone died.

Luckily I located the original purchase receipt for the MBA11 (they required that) and it wasn't as bad a process to get made whole as I thought. It was a $1279 laptop (8GB option) and I'd definitely gotten my money's worth. It was, era-adjusted, one of the best products Apple has ever made, in a sea of lemons.

Anytime the FA comes through with the drinks, I put away the laptop as a matter of habit. Just isn't worth the risk.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've got a Macbook 12 (2017), and it's surprisingly fast - I think it's definitely viable for iOS app development, as long as you have it hooked up to an external screen.

I find that Xcode is a little cramped on the notebook screen if you have all of the panels open, but if you can close at least one of them, there's enough room to work.

I only have 8 gigs of ram in the Macbook (I have a Macbook Pro I use as my daily driver with 16 gigs), and that seems to be fine with Xcode, as long as I use Safari instead of Chrome, and don't keep Android Studio open at the same time.

<comment><USER6> You might be interested in these shortcuts [http://jontelang.com/blog/2016/01/12/xcode-shortcuts-for- sma...](http://jontelang.com/blog/2016/01/12/xcode-shortcuts-for-small- screens.html)

It basically maps cmd+123 to left/bottom/right panels. Even after upgrading to a bigger screen I keep using them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Did iOS development with Macbook Air before, works surprising well for normal business app (app that just call API and decorate the response JSON with UI stuff). Downside is no retina display (I used a Macbook Air 2013).

</comment><comment><USER8> I used to have a Macbook 2017 and XCode development was kind of slow when you run the simulator, but then again, it is completely usable, and the Retina display is so worth (this was before the new Macbook Air).

</comment><comment><USER9> I think the biggest drag will be running the simulator. You can go to the Mac store and try it out. I am wrote an app on vm and that was much slower.</comment>


Erik Prince seeking $500m for battery metals fund – report - <AUTHOR> https://www.marketwatch.com/story/erik-prince-seeking-500m-for-battery-metals-fund-report-2019-01-02 <comment><USER2> A war criminal with a private army at his disposal and links to the highest levels of the US Government is attempting to raise $500 million? What could go wrong!

<comment><USER3> I've yet to see proof that he is a war criminal.

</comment></comment><comment> barrow-rider This has been a discussion thread I've heard of before. I.E. the mountains full of rare earth metals, lithium, etc. in Afghanistan, and how we need to secure it ASAP before the Chinese do. Read like Bush-League propaganda and was usually juxtaposed with "China buying all of the rare metals in Africa". Which makes me wonder if this is pure pablum to help Prince ride the propaganda, or if he's looking to corner the market.

Also didn't realize he sold the Acadami/Xe/Blackwater group, and is now beholden to Hong Kong financiers:

> Prince sold Blackwater in 2010 after it was hit with a string of lawsuits. > He is currently executive deputy chairman of Frontier Services Group, which > provides integrated security, logistics and insurance services in frontier > markets and is backed by Hong Kong investor Chun Shun Ko and China's CITIC > Group.

<comment><AUTHOR> [https://scitechafrica.com/2018/02/12/congo-is-to-electric- ve...](https://scitechafrica.com/2018/02/12/congo-is-to-electric-vehicles- what-saudi-arabia-is-to-internal-combustion-engine/) he's looking to corner the market. China is busy building rails all leading into the Congo.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The dollop episode on this scumbag was amazing: [https://thedollop.libsyn.com/321-erik-prince-and- blackwater-...](https://thedollop.libsyn.com/321-erik-prince-and-blackwater- live)</comment>


Acts_as_enterprisey - slow down Rails apps randomly to justify consulting fees - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/airblade/acts_as_enterprisey

<comment><USER2> Not a constructive use of one's time.

</comment><comment><USER3> Rails is slow enough to begin with.</comment>


The leaky bucket of Indian food delivery startups - <AUTHOR> http://factordaily.com/the-economics-of-food-delivery/ <comment><USER3> Bit OT but does this count as a garden path sentence? I originally parsed it like:

\- "The leaky bucket of Indian food" \- a leaking bucket of Indian food

\- "The leaky bucket of Indian food delivery" \- a metaphorical leaky bucket of delivering Indian food

\- "The leaky bucket of Indian food delivery startups" \- metaphorical leaky bucket that is Indian startups delivering food.

I don't know that the second change in meaning counts as a garden path, though, since while it did change the noun modified by "Indian" from "food" to "startup", that was from context, not gramatical necessity.

</comment><comment><USER4> Mathematical analysis of the problem leads to the same conclusion as I would have told if someone asked me about the food delivery business model in India.

The economic reason for possible failure can be stated in just a couple of sentences - Labour is cheap in India, so most restaurants keep on-staff delivery personnel. This makes it easy for them to ramp-up if needed and often they have no need to contract with a third-party, food delivery service.

I see this model as a possibility here in the US, where labour is not cheap, and not all restaurants deliver food themselves. And yes, I believe they can work well. I used DoorDash several times when I resided in an area they serviced. Whether these businesses flourish or not is an entirely different matter, and growing competition in the field is definitely not making it easy.

<comment><USER5> That is definitely not a good reason. Food delivery startups don't just deliver food, they make it easy to order food. They have their own app, you can pay through credit cards and mostly it just provides a better experience ordering food. Even if restaurants hire their in house delivery team, they will still need to get orders from somewhere. I have been ordering from restaurants directly, and it is just not fun giving orders on a call to the restaurant with your friends shouting what they want to order.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Google "Central Market Butter Chicken Murgh Makhani".

I have multiple boxes of that brand in the freezer right now.

I would think that a decent substitute for delivery, although it'd nothing like going to a restaurant. It's lower latency than ordering for delivery. If you want hotter, add the appropriate ground pepper ( I use cayenne, which is semi-shameful but good anyway).

</comment><comment><USER7> We are taking a different approach here in China (just applied to hax.co, seeking additional co-investors) - <USER2> [http://8-food.com/](http://8-food.com/)</comment>


Preventative care doesn't save money - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/upshot/preventive-health-care-costs.html <comment><USER2> I found this to be an extremely interesting point:

>In the short term, less smoking would lead to decreased spending because of reductions in health care spending for those who had smoked.

>In the long run, all of those people living longer would lead to increases in spending in many programs, including health care. The more people who quit smoking, the higher the deficit from health care — barely offset by the revenue from taxing cigarettes.

So yes, if our goal is to "reduce healthcare spending" letting people die younger, faster would indeed do this.

However if our goal is to "improve quality of life for people at the lowest possible cost" we most likely need to invest in preventative care.

I would like to hear more from the authors on their synthesis.

<comment><USER3> Let old people die faster? It sounds callous to frame it in terms of dollars and cents, but allowing people to choose to end their own lives might lift some of the burden on our healthcare systems.

I'm still on the fence about the issue of euthanasia, but I think the Overton window is shifting. In time, I think that debate will make the debate on abortion look cordial.

<comment><USER4> This is one of those topics that needs to be addressed but really cannot be because it's just so callous (and because the AARP is such a significant lobby in American politics).

I think assisted suicide should be legal. But even setting that aside, we spend a _massive_ amount of money on prolonging people's lives for a few more miserable weeks at the bitter end. That money would clearly be better used on patients with better long-term prognoses, but this is unfortunately the stuff that gets people screaming about death panels.

<comment><USER5> Fun fact: AARP is the biggest lobbying entity in the USA. And it'll only get bigger with baby boomers joining the club.

Edit: GenX, not baby boomers.

<comment><USER6> > AARP is the biggest lobbying entity in the USA. And it'll only get bigger > with baby boomers joining the club.

The _youngest_ Boomer has been past the AARP full membership age for more than 20 years; newly eligible AARPers are in the younger half (nearly the youngest third) of GenX. Plus, AARP offers full membership for free for a spouse without age qualification, and associate memberships for under 50s. Which is to say, there's not a lot of reason to expect that Boomers interested in "joining the club" haven't all done so a long time ago, and are now exiting by death more than entering, while new members are coming from the relative baby bust of GenX.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Reminds me of a section of Dr. Bartlett's talk on sustainability([https://youtu.be/TBtW51D_q2Q?t=860](https://youtu.be/TBtW51D_q2Q?t=860)). It is very interesting to see how a government is forced to grapple with the financial implications of well-meaning policies. Perhaps this is why preventative care _needs_ to be billed as a cost-saving measure, otherwise you have to justify it over many other life-improving programs(education, law and order, defense, even other medical care programs).

The CBO report cited in the article also highlights another troubling point, the insolvency of our social policies:

"From about the middle of the second decade onward, however, the effects of increased longevity would outweigh decreases in per capita health care spending, and outlays would rise; but until about the mid-2060s, that growth in outlays would be more than offset by the increase in tax revenues from higher earnings. The largest deficit reduction from the health-related effects — about 0.005% of GDP annually — would occur from about 2030 to 2035. After the mid-2060s, the deficit would be larger than otherwise because the higher outlays would outweigh the health-related revenue increase."

(simplified, the taxes paid by healthier, longer-living citizens are not enough to offset the extra medical care they are afforded).

<comment><USER8> I'm not actually going to read the CBO report, but this article has a bad taste; it looks like political problems being mis-interpreted by the reporter as technical revelation.

If long-term impacts on the health system are considered, long-term tax & other productivity related payments need to be considered also. If this is net-negative, then that indicates a problem with the tax system (or possibly the healthcare system is to generous in the long term).

That is intensely political ground to say the least. Surely the issues with preventative care are closely linked to the solvency issue.

<comment><USER9> > If this is net-negative, then that indicates a problem with the tax system > (or possibly the healthcare system is to generous in the long term).

Given the number of anecdotal and statistical horrors that occur where the US healthcare system denies large numbers of people care that is unambiguously necessary, I suspect that the larger financial issue lies in the tax system.

To be clear: there are huge areas of terrible waste and broken behavior in the healthcare system (to the point that it costs far more than comparable systems in other countries), I just think the missing taxation-responsibility angle is more significant.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> > _If we really want to know whether prevention saves money, maybe we should > take a wider perspective. Does spending on prevention save the country money > over all? A recent report from the Congressional Budget Office in the New > England Journal of Medicine suggests the answer is no. The budget office > modeled how a policy to reduce smoking through higher cigarette taxes might > affect federal spending... In the long run, all of those people living > longer would lead to increases in spending in many programs, including > health care. The more people who quit smoking, the higher the deficit from > health care — barely offset by the revenue from taxing cigarettes._

What about those peoples' economic productivity as they work for another decade? What about the other jobs they help maintain by spending the money they make from their productivity? What about the care they provide to their grandkids?

This article takes an incredibly myopic view. If we're sticking to pure economics, the metric shouldn't be to decrease lifetime health care costs... the metric should be to decrease the _ratio_ of lifetime health care costs to lifetime economic productivity, broadly measured.

<comment><USER11> Even if they did take economic activity into accounting that seems besides the point. The same argument would make it a really good idea to introduce the death penalty for reaching retirement age! If you optimize for something stupid you get stupid results.

<comment><USER12> There is a bit of a nihilist nature to it too.

Current modern society only achievement is making people live better, longer. There is no scientific, objective reason to do that. It is only the arbitrary (slightly helped by biology) value we put on human life that makes us do that.

You can look at about everything, be it healthcare, government, defence, or even economy and money and the only cold logical conclusion is that it serves no purpose.

Makes me think we better be careful with AI. Overly survivalist AI can kill all humans, the opposite is one that eventually find out that killing all human now is the fastest way to help humanity reach its natural conclusion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The article says we need to take a wider perspective than just healthcare spending, but gives only one example of this with smoking, which happens to be one of the few 'preventative' interventions which both costs money to implement, and reduces revenue at the same time. As such, I am unconvinced of the entire thesis. It also uses a silly example of emergency room use after the ACA - of course after drasticallly changing the number of people with health insurance, there will not be efficient or ideal use of healthcare services. Many of the previously uninsured people probably aren't even aware of the concept of primary care.

The link between health and labour productivity only gets stronger as the population ages. Given this, I would need to see some compelling arguments that keeping people healthier for longer does not actually save money, but none are forthcoming in this article.

<comment><USER14> The point of the ER example is it runs counter to one of ACA's important justification claims, _viz._ requiring all manner of preventive care coverage — even from low-premium, high-deductible plans — would reduce ER usage by giving the formerly uninsured the option of primary care. Even though now the ER isn't "the only place they can go," the author asserts that some choose to visit the ER as a matter of convenience. Reality isn't likely to be quite this simple, _e.g._ , another likely factor is a shortage of physicians accepting Medicaid.

The example isn't silly at all. Central to ACA advocacy was how high American healthcare spending was relative to other countries and that costs would fall with ER-as-primary gone.

<comment><USER13> I still maintain it is a lazy example, and indeed probably just wrong[1]. The last insurance expansion was as recent as 2014, yet there is no discussion of trends over time.

[1][https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2017-07-impact-patient- emer...](https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2017-07-impact-patient-emergency- department.html)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> But of course it saves money.. on the long run. Yes, it does cost more upfront, and yes, people will be using the 'free doctor' more, in the short term, but over the lifetime of the patient, it costs considerable less to prevent, than to 'fix'. Of course, you could say that people who 'suddenly' need fixing will live less, so overall the state will save money cause they will be dead sooner, but i'm pretty sure that's NOT the point of healthcare.

<comment><USER16> Of course, there is always a trade-off. For example, it is not worth spending 100$ for a 1% reduction in the risk of getting a disease that costs 1000$ to cure. If you really believe that prevention always pays off, why aren't you wearing a helmet right now?

<comment><USER17> Very poor exemple. Him not wearing a helmet right now has nothing do to with costs, its about practicality and societal norms. Even on construction sites we had to makes laws saying it is mandatory or big fines to get people to wear them.

<comment><USER16> Not all cost is of monetary nature. Wearing a helmet costs you comfort, agility, and time. That's why we only do it when the risks outweigh the costs. Which is exactly the point: sometimes the risks outweigh the costs of prevention, sometimes they do not. Thus, this was an excellent example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> "... but it improves quality of life at a very reasonable price."

</comment><comment><USER19> Did they analyse European preventative care programmes too? Maybe preventative care can save money, just not in the US ?

</comment><comment><USER20> People are mentioning letting people die faster and earlier should reduce costs. But that's too simple. It would reduce costs for the initial payers but the costs (capital and labor) would remain the same for the short term meaning costs for services would have to rise for the providers to pay their fixed capital financing costs and to not have to lay off any labor. It's like inflation. How your buying per is affected depends on when/if you get the new money.

Until labor costs go down and we don't have a push for an "MRI on every block" costs won't go down. There seems to be more support jobs today particularly for coding and billing and dealing with insurances which is why single payer is thought to be a way to reduce costs by reducing overhead. It ought to work but then we better be prepared to help those workers who get displaced... Which just shifts the cost(s) somewhere else (sometime needs to pay to retrain displaced workers whose skills and knowledge are no longer needed or possibly even pay unemployment or even welfare to jobless individuals).

</comment><comment><USER21> Leaving aside for a moment the issues of healthcare being wrapped up in a system of regulation and entitlement that makes a healthy marketplace impossible, and growth in demand harmful rather than beneficial. Putting that to one side, the reason why present day preventative care does little to the numbers is that (a) most costs occur due to age-related disease, and (b) present day medicine can produce only marginally positive outcomes at great expensive when it comes to aging and its consequences. It is still outperformed in many areas by lifestyle choices.

Sufficiently good preventative medicine will save money, because it will address the root causes of aging and thereby reduce risk and severity of age- related disease, while lengthening healthy and overall life span. It doesn't even have to be cheap. It just has to be less cheap than the cost of attempting and failing cope with aging.

But in practice it will largely be cheap.

Senolytic therapies to clear senescent cells are a pharmaceutical approach to age-related conditions that improves the situation for near all individuals and pathologies of aging, cost-effectively. Those tested to date reduce inflammation, partially resolve loss of regenerative capacity, turn back atherosclerosis, restore loss of tissue elasticity to some degree, effectively treat osteoarthritis, effectively treat fibrosis, clear out many forms of bad immune cell, remove a contributing cause of Parkinson's disease, and so for for a much longer list. The reason it will be so much better is that it targets a root cause of aging, a form of damage, and directly repairs at least some of it (25-50% of senescent cells destroyed in some of the measured tissues for some of the approaches).

One of the candidate therapies, dasatinib/quercetin, costs ~ $30-100 / dose. Take it once every few years.

</comment><comment><USER22> The key paragraph, with added emphasis:

>One reason for this is that all prevention is not the same. _The task force doesn't model costs in its calculations; it models effectiveness and a preponderance of benefits and harms._ When something works, and its positive effects outweigh its adverse ones, a recommendation is made.

Aaron (the author) and his partners blog here[1], it's a very good site if this sort of thing interests you.

[1][https://theincidentaleconomist.com](https://theincidentaleconomist.com)

</comment><comment><USER23> >These included immunizations, counseling, and screening for disease. Researchers modeled what would happen if up to 90 percent of these services were used

The science is settled. We have a model for proof.

</comment><comment><USER24> here is a fallacy that is frequently made: everything needs to be profitable. no, not everything needs to be profitable. we accept that things that are for use by the general public as essential to their life are not held to the standard of being profitable. this is why we offer food stamps and control the rates for water delivery and electricity delivery very strictly.

healthcare doesn't need to be profitable, it needs to increase people's longevity and their quality of life. full stop. anything else-- anything less-- anything more cruel in the conversation is completely unwelcome and hopelessly off-base.

it's like the people who try to argue that public transit needs to make a profit. no, it's a public utility. it needs to not bleed the public's money dry, sure, but its primary objective is providing a service rather than making money. making money isn't even a tertiary goal. once again, it's a public service.

flagged this article for being too stupid to be on HN; other people in the comments have already pointed out the article's glaring methodological flaws, poor rhetoric, and its malicious moral standpoint.

</comment><comment><USER25> I imagine it does for dentistry

</comment><comment><USER26> Cutting sugar, not being wholly sedentary, and having life long friends is 90% of preventative care.

</comment><comment><USER27> The author, in my opinion,does not do enough to talk about one of things that most Americans can control:nutrition & exercise.

The author also fails to mention that American medical system lives for treating rather than curing because treating makes the health industry makes more money.

>Preventive Care Saves Money? Sorry, It's Too Good to Be True

Why is it that I can find this?

>A new study from researchers at Indiana and Cornell Universities looked at the effects of the Affordable Care Act's (ACA) Medicaid expansion on a specific group: low-income, non-elderly, non-disabled childless adults–folks who wouldn't normally be eligible for coverage without the ACA. This group is now 17% more likely to have health insurance, 7% more likely to have a personal doctor, and 11% "less likely to report that cost was a barrier to their health care," according to a statement from the Indiana University Newsroom.

([https://www.fastcompany.com/3067684/one-big-lesson-from- obam...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3067684/one-big-lesson-from-obamacare- preventative-care-saves-lives-and-money))

Definition of Preventative Healthcare.

>Preventive healthcare (alternately preventive medicine or prophylaxis) consists of measures taken for disease prevention, as opposed to disease treatment.([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_healthcare)[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preventive_healthcare\)\[1\])

I cannot speak of this for the EU, but in the U.S. does anyone pause and wonder why their is not more education on nutrition?

Does that ultimately have a huge effect on what diseases we may get?

> Over the past century, essential nutrient deficiencies have dramatically > decreased, many infectious diseases have been conquered, and the majority of > the U.S. population can now anticipate a long and productive life.

> However, as infectious disease rates have dropped, the rates of > noncommunicable diseases—specifically, chronic diet-related diseases—have > risen, due in part to changes in lifestyle behaviors.

> A history of poor eating and physical activity patterns have a cumulative > effect and have contributed to significant nutrition- and physical activity- > related health challenges that now face the U.S. population.

> About _half of all American adults—117 million individuals—have one or more > preventable chronic diseases_ , many of which are related_ to poor quality > eating patterns and physical inactivity_.

([https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/introdu...](https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/introduction/nutrition- and-health-are-closely-related/\)\[2\])

Other papers and articles that disagree with the author.

([https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/abs/10.1377/hlthaff.2008.0...](https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/abs/10.1377/hlthaff.2008.0701\)\[Greater) Use Of Preventive Services In U.S. Health Care Could Save Lives At Little Or No Cost Michael V. Maciosek1, Ashley B. Coffield2, Thomas J. Flottemesch3, ... See all authors AFFILIATIONS PUBLISHED:SEPTEMBER 2010Free Access]

My point is that the answer is quite complicated and to state something as simple as the author does is, disingenuous.

</comment><comment><USER28> Preventive, not preventative. Please fix the HN title.

<comment><USER29> Both appear to be acceptable and share the same definitions.

[http://grammarist.com/spelling/preventative- preventive/](http://grammarist.com/spelling/preventative-preventive/)

<comment><USER28> But the title of the post uses the word preventive.</comment></comment></comment>


State of the Realtime Web : the Publishers  - <AUTHOR> http://blog.superfeedr.com/facebook/publishers/pubsubhubbub/realtime/twitter/state-of-the-realtime-web-publishers/

<comment><USER2> Nice good overview of the players and non-players are in the open realtime web.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hopefully, all the non-players (like news.ycombinator will come to the party :p)</comment></comment>


Patreon Founder (Jack Conte) - A great approach to running a site - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TAJBc7gW-Vc#t=202s

<comment><USER2> YES! This guy is an inspiration. As a musician I'm so happy that this is becoming a valid model of art distribution - rather than having to sign with a label and end up taking about 2% (ok, maybe it's not quite that bad) of sales.

Also, point 3. It's like WHAAAaAAAaAT?!

Moreover, the videos are extraordinary. Robots? Light shows? YESSSS! :D

All the good things to say about Jack Conte

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Point number 3 are words I'd love to hear from more founders. Admittedly many need to take a salary too (since their site is what they do, but to be a user of your own product and have that passion for it is a great way to ensure you produce an awesome product.</comment>


Screenshot-proof images via temporal dithering - <AUTHOR> http://persistent.info/web-experiments/temporal-dithering/ <comment><USER2> Discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4955639>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Seems like this might be interesting for Snapchat / Poke to implement if they could get the frame rate high enough on a mobile phone.

</comment><comment><USER3> i can just take 2 screenshots right?</comment>


How do you make programmers in a startup work 60–80 hours a week? - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@gerrydimova/how-do-you-make-programmers-in-a-startup-work-60-80-hours-a-week-9ddc1bd6abb4

<comment><USER2> Relevant discussion: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8923882](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8923882)

</comment><comment><USER3> > How do you make programmers in a startup work 60–80 hours a week?

Make this expectation clear when hiring them.

Pay them appropriately.

Better question: _Why_ make your programmers work 60-80 hours a week. That's way past the point where you are likely to see diminishing marginal utility for each hour of work, and probably into the range where you are, if done over more than a very short spurt, you are likely to see diminishing _total_ utility for each hour they are demanded to work. And you are definitely going to increase burnout/turnover risk. So, why do it?

(Yes, the actual medium.com article is _not_ at all about the question asked in the title. But, anyway...)

<comment><AUTHOR> > Pay them appropriately.

By paying them appropriately, I assume you mean at a market hourly rate?

That's one of the two contexts where I as a developer would be interested in working more than a 40-50 hour week.

The other context would be where I had substantial ownership and believed in the product.

<comment><USER3> > By paying them appropriately, I assume you mean at a market hourly rate?

I'd actually assume that above-average work hours would command a premium price above the "market hourly rate". As with most things, free time as a declining marginal utility, which means _sacrificing_ free time has an increasing marginal _disutility_ which must be paid for by what is offered in exchange for that sacrifice. (This idea is reflected in wage & hour rules that require non-exempt employees to be paid a premium for overtime; while programmers may generally be FLSA exempt and not subject to that requirement -- largely because they are in a class of labor with skill and responsibility that is presumed to be able to negotiate appropriate reimbursement -- the basic principle behind it still applies.)

But, yes, I mean "pay them what is appropriate in the market for the extra time".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Easy: just set all of your investors' money on fire.

Oh, no, wait, that's just an easier way to accomplish the same result.

</comment><comment><USER5> Sadly this is still a relevant question due to the fact that if you give your programmers every leeway they will take advantage, not work, slack for 2 weeks and do nothing. happens all the time.

As a boss nothing angers you more then paying someone 7-10k a month on top of all the taxes and costs and watching them bitch and complain about coming to the office and commit nothing until the "feel like it" under the guise of "programming happens when it happens". This is real money and it is painful to raise it and just give it away. The developer doesn't have to answer to the angry investors and have their reputation ruined forever when the company fails. They get to skate off and go work at Facebook with valuable "startup experience" under their belt.

The reality is that 99% of programmers have bad attitudes and if you find the gem that actually pulls the cart with you, hold on to that unicorn with every ounce of your being.

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you think that 99% of all employees have bad attitudes, or is it just developers?

I'm asking because I've met very few developers who "commit nothing until they 'fell like it'". Those don't sound like professionals, they sound like children, and I agree, it would be frustrating to depend on someone like that.

<comment><USER5> 99% of developers cannot organize themselves and develop a monstrous amount of high quality code in a short period of time. 100% of developers can demand big paychecks, all of the perks, working from wherever they want, never working in an office and work on their own time when they feel like it.

As an employer I used to be upfront and tell developers there is a 90% chance you will be gone in the first week, but if you make it i'll pay you 15k a month no problems and give you anything you want.

I went from a 75% bad hire rate to a 0% bad hire rate after that. just 1 data point here.</comment></comment></comment>


Why is Mayor Bloomberg Talkin' Trash on Boston at Techstars NYC Demo Day? - <AUTHOR> http://bostinnovation.com/2011/10/18/why-is-mayor-bloomberg-talkin-trash-on-boston-at-techstars-nyc-demo-day-twitter-reacts/

<comment><USER2> Why don't Google and Apple work together to create a single smartphone platform? In the end, cities are businesses. NYC's tax base might only be slightly improved if Boston becomes the east-coast leader. Alternatively, if Boston and NYC have some competition, each city will boost its scene and overall the east-coast will improve. There is nothing wrong with a little competition :)</comment>


Do All Companies Have to be Evil? - <AUTHOR> http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=do-all-companies-have-to-be-evil&print=true <comment><USER2> Lame title, but the article isn't that bad, even if I think it could have gone much more in-depth and presented more than two companies.

</comment><comment><USER3> no</comment>


Assessing a startup's culture before joining - <AUTHOR> https://thinkgrowth.org/strategies-for-assessing-startup-culture-before-joining-7afbc7dfc5ba?_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9FM7vOw_9U7cpP7J9edFXDMMD-RXYvXHhfKbRKscg5EWYuf8ToK_yPA4iUw3QBGVokzuGbIGeKNVkyUbKFsexiihL6dQ&_hsmi=60533979 <comment><USER2> Some other questions that seem to have been omitted from this list:

1\. Is there an atmosphere of energy?

2\. Is the company bureaucratic?

3\. Does the company do good work?

4\. Are the people good at what they do?

5\. Are they happy?

</comment><comment><USER3> This is a garbage article.

If you actually want to evaluate a startup's culture this is what I'd recommend:

1\. Do they respect your time during the interview process?

If they give you a 'take-home assignment', an automated coding exercise, or a written test that's a huge red flag. Why? Because there's an asymmetry of effort. When you're interviewing with a software developer the company is devoting the same resources to your interview that you are. If they don't respect your time _before_ they hire then there's no way they will after they hire you.

On the same token, I've seen some companies do interviews where they require devs to come onsite and actually work with the team on a real project for an entire day. To me, that goes too far in the other direction towards not respecting my time.

2\. Do they have competent leadership?

Insist on speaking to someone in a leadership position as part of your interview process (C level, director of engineering, etc). Do they have a deep understanding of their position? What was their background before they took this job? Are they a leader or just a manager?

3\. How does the company evaluate performance?

Both yours and their own. If they can't give you a concise and well-defined answer avoid them like the plague.

<comment><USER4> > 1\. Do they respect your time during the interview process?

This is an A+ point (but I'd apply it to all companies, not just startups.)

> 2\. Do they have competent leadership?

How can you tell that from a brief conversation when corporate headhunters and boards frequently spend days talking to potential leaders and still manage to hire incompetent boobheads?

<comment><USER3> It can be difficult to identify a competent leader as you pointed out. Here are some of the things I've learned to look for:

1\. They don't tell they show.

 _CEO 1_ told me his company has a culture of honesty and transparency.

 _CEO 2_ told me, "This is an ambitious project. We've only got 18 months left of runway if we keep hiring at the rate we need to in order to get the product to market. We're confident that if we launch this year we'll be profitable enough to get further investment. It's high risk and high reward but I'm in the same boat you will be. If this doesn't work I'll be looking for a job too. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think we could do it."

CEO number 1 told me they were honest, CEO number 2 showed me.

And it's not just telling the truth, any statement they make about their company you should think about afterward and ask yourself what they did to demonstrate that statement.

2\. Honesty deserves its own point.

When I interviewed at an internal startup of a Fortune 100 company the CTO told me, "The technology we're building is going to replace a lot of people at <parent company>. That means we have to be very careful about what we say and how we release things. I do my best to shield this team for the corporate politics above us but sometimes it slips through. They do pay the bills after all."

Every company has its benefits and drawbacks. It can be a legacy system that's difficult to work with, an industry that's heavily regulated, a bureaucratic organization, a codebase written by contractors, a talent shortage, or something else. They're hiring you to solve a problem. If they don't tell you what that problem is and the difficulty you'll face overcoming it then you should be highly skeptical.

If the job seems too good to be true it probably is.

3\. They know where they add value and their limitations.

"How did I get my job? Basically, I was friends with the co-founder. Before this, I did market research at <large tech company>. I don't know enough about software development to build a tech org. That's what I want to hire you to do." \- How one CEO started a conversation with me.

If you ever talk to an executive that thinks they're smarter than everyone else run like hell. Likewise ask what their day normally consists of (seriously, you'd be surprised by most answers).

The mentality that you want is that of a team. Everyone has their role to play and everyone they hired is a critical piece. I've found this also comes with a 'whatever it takes, just get things done mentality'. I've seen CTOs who personally refilled the office snack collection for months until they could hire an office manager.

4\. They understand what skills are and are not transferable.

Ask them how they hire their managers and product owners. Look through the backgrounds of every executive at the company.

Equifax's Chief Information Security Office spent her entire career managing call centers. She had no background in either technology or security.

You might be tempted to say, 'so what management is a skill of its own.' True. But it's not a sufficient skill in and of itself. Hiring a manager for their management skills alone or a product owner just because of their experience being a product owner is like hiring a teacher just based on their experience teaching. Sure there are transferable skills every teacher has but you can't just throw that German History professor into a Nuclear Physics course and be like 'what it's all teaching'.

If there are any non-technical managers in charge of a technical worker's hard pass on the company. If any of the executives don't have a background in their field, hard pass. If they have product owners who are non-technical and have no background in the company's industry then get the fuck out.

5\. Differentiate between managers and leaders.

Management and leadership are completely different skills. You want the latter.

Listen to how they tell the story of their company. Are they the center of attention or do they spend their time praising others? Ask how many people have left the company and why. Ask the lower level employees you interview with a question and see if the executive's answers match. Ask any technical manager when the last time they wrote a line of source code was.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > 1\. How is bias handled?

What did they mean by this?

It deserved mentioning and it took up a couple paragraphs but at no point was it ever made clear what exactly needs to be mitigated or handled, other than vague statements about how it is undesirable in a start-up.

<comment><USER6> The bias bit comes across (to me) similarly to the rest of the piece and seems to boil down to: ask questions and make observations to make sure that it's the right fit for you.

That is to say there isn't necessarily a single right answer but there's probably a right answer _for you_. Not that there aren't plenty of pretty universally wrong answers too...

<comment><USER5> Well, after giving it some thought, it seemed the author was trying to encourage awareness of emotional decision making.

Being too attached to a product that has no business model, for example, and deluding yourself into thinking "I just have to explain it the right way and people will love it!"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I wish we had less of these empty PR pieces lending on HN frontpage.

</comment><comment><USER6> There's nothing in here that's specific to startups IMHO though that doesn't mean it's bad advice. As others have mentioned it doesn't feel like a complete list of stuff.

Just to pick one I really do connect with: I've always paid a lot of attention to how employees treat their kitchen and also toilets. I had an eye opening experience in between interviews on the trading floor of a certain large investment bank that scared me off them (way back when).

</comment><comment><USER8> A somewhat unpc question do people really consider those 4 questions the most important criteria ?

<comment><USER5> I don't think so, this is basically a fluff piece about identity politics.

There isn't any mentioning of basic things like:

* salary/equity rationing policies

* work-life balance and when/where crunch time is necessary

* growth/expansion planning (ie: from whom are the ideas coming from, from where are quantitative traction measurements coming from) and investment expectations (eg: business connections, networking, etc)

* how management is handling product hiccups (eg: pivoting), turn-over (eg: burn-out/mental health), public image blunders (eg: Uber-level PR nightmares with massive loss of face)

* communication channels between executive/non-executive decision making groups (ie: company direction transparency)

* mentoring and on-boarding new team members

* company's relationship with the tech community (eg: open-source contributions, meet-up hosting)

<comment><USER9> >this is basically a fluff piece about identity politics.

What does asking "What do departures look like?" have to do with identity politics?

Or encouraging readers to view Glassdoor reviews, speak to employees, observing the pride employees take in their working environment, or assessing the leadership of the org, for that matter?

The amount of defensiveness three sentences about diversity can draw out of people blows my mind a little bit.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I may be being dumb here, but what does bias refer to in the first point? Is it a social thing, or does it refer to being dogmatically biased towards certain frameworks/methodologies? Perhaps both.</comment>


Mariah Carey's record-breaking day shows how little musicians make from Spotify - <AUTHOR> https://qz.com/1507361/mariah-careys-record-breaking-day-shows-how-little-musicians-make-from-spotify/ <comment><USER2> I was one of the streamers. Love her and the song.</comment>


You worked for jerks who screwed you for money. How do you handle the reference? - <AUTHOR>

If you're trying to move on from a negative experience, how do you handle the situation honestly without shooting yourself in the foot? <comment><USER2> Not sure what you mean by handle the reference. List it on your resume openly and honestly. I wouldn't put the "jerks who screwed you for money" down as a reference. They are unlikely to say anything nice. If you don't have a lot of work experience and need a reference perhaps a co worker who you are friendly with could do it instead of your boss.

</comment><comment><USER3> They'll probably give you a good reference. They want to be the good guys on paper. However, if you are asked to give a reference for them, I understand that it's illegal to give negative criticism for an ex-employee review. I usually say something like, "It's not legal for me to comment negatively about XXXXX. Understand? Bye?".

</comment><comment><USER4> That's hard; I've been there. I tend to smile and bear it. As long as you weren't as much of a jerk to them as they are to you, hope for the best?</comment>