German minister: Stop using U.S. Web services to avoid NSA spying - <AUTHOR> http://www.zdnet.com/german-minister-stop-using-u-s-web-services-to-avoid-nsa-spying-7000017631/ <comment><USER2> Stop using US services?! That's where I started but as of today, I'd go even further:

* _Americans no longer welcome in Europe_ ; you think you can spy on us, torture people, kill innocents, trample over longstanding diplomatic conventions to ground a president of a country, put the full might of your police state to hunt down your own freedom fighters, and then come here and have a good time or do business? Think again. US citizens not welcome here anymore!!! You can do what you want in your country, but don't come here if you don't respect our way of life and our privacy.

* Let's kick the Brits out of the EU (they don't seem to be too happy in there anyway); they are basically just a foothold for the American fascists in the EU and do their bidding

* Let's not stop at moving our own email and social accounts to European providers. Refuse to accept emails coming from gmail, yahoo etc. domains! Send automatic replies that explain why and suggesting ways what is acceptable.

The point is: The US electorate and businesses are either pro surveilling the whole world, even their own allies, or they are lethargic and indifferent. If the former, we should draw the consequence and stop having contact and exchanges with them. If the latter, we should increase the cost of doing nothing. Hurt them the only way we, as citizens of the world without a voice in the American police state, can hurt them: In their pocket and in their options to travel and have fun. America is always so happy lecturing the world about democracy. Well then, now you can show us which way the wind really blows in America and its relation with the world.

<comment><USER3> I get your outrage, but I think this:

It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other. (It's almost _never_ about the _people_ between nations. It's _governments_ that fuck up things for the people.)

It's about a rotten system, which unfortunately is the US government today. (It's not even about Obama, this is way above people like him.)

<comment><USER4> >It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other.

It _is_ about the people. We call this a "democracy" (I know, it's a republic), yet as a whole we fail to engage our government meaningfully. That makes it the peoples' fault.

We tolerate this crap in the US because as a whole we suffer no visible consequence from it. Most US citizens remain blissfully unaware. Many of those who are aware don't care because it doesn't affect them in any way they can measure, and/or because they think it makes them safer. If we as a whole suffer in some measurable way, especially of those of us who are wealthy enough to travel are rudely made aware of our own rudeness and inconsideration for others, maybe then more of us will actively oppose this crap.

I wouldn't see the revocation of visa-less travel for US citizens in Europe as hostility, or as an unreasonable response to US gov't aggression in the form of our unilaterally spying on everyone.

<comment><USER3> > It is about the people. We call this a "democracy".

What I meant to say is this:

It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us.

Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better.

And I believe this is the case with HN readers (the majority of the general public in the US is probably not part of this priviledged group). So go out and inform your peers about what they can do to advance democracy on this planet.

<comment><USER4> >It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us.

I was born in the US. I've lived in North America, Europe, and Asia. I agree absolutely.

>Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better.

IMO, my generation has grown up with and grown accustomed to a kind of powerlessness with respect to gov't policy. Demographics heavily favor the Baby Boomer generation in most parts of the country. The psychology of living for twenty years in a "democracy" where gov't policy has to be approved by our parents, or else it will fail, seems to have produced a lot of apathetic people in my cohort. That's my excuse anyway. Nevertheless, without some meaningful feedback concerning our gov't's, or some galvanizing event, I don't see much chance for progress on this front.

<comment><USER5> That's quite a walk back from Americans are no longer welcome in Europe.

<comment><USER4> I don't understand your comment. I'm an American. What I said is that I wish some country(ies) _would_ ban Americans from unrestricted travel. What I wish is that Americans become conscious of the behavior of our government both at home and abroad. Without some corrective feedback, I doubt we'll do anything other than maintain our collective ignorance/apathy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> At work we've already had this discussion regarding the location of the web apps we use. Not because we manage "highly sensible" data, but because this entire situation bothers us at many levels.

Although not 100% decided, the "biggest" change we are planning is to move all of our Google Apps email/server to a private mail server located here in Europe + encryption for all. This is a relatively easy transition. A tougher change is finding (if it exists) a Box alternative.

<comment><USER7> Spam filtering is also something that Gmail does pretty well. If you've got a public email address that's 'out there', a serious spam solution is pretty important.

<comment><USER8> I've been not very happy with Gmail's spam filtering, though I admit it's hard to do right. But its false positives were the main reason I moved away from it. The last straw was when they spam-filtered an email from my landlord because it contained some Danish text in it (I live in Denmark!). I eventually found it in my Spam folder (which I thereafter had to check regularly) with the explanation that it was filtered because "It's written in a different language than your messages typically use."

<comment><USER7> What have you replaced it with?

I regularly get emails in both Italian and English and it seems to get things right most of the time. And it filters out a ton of spam - I probably get at least 20 an hour, so without a good filter, I'd be "up a creek".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Since the UK is acting as the USA's slurp gateway, I reckon the Germans should be having a word with us.

Also, if the EU wants to block the US in what ever way, its going to need to block the UK too, since it will side with the US.

<comment><USER10> It's either naivete or posturing.

All major gov'ts intercept each other's traffic and do espionage (industrial or intelligence) on each other. It's a kind of gentleman's agreement. We know you spy on us, you know we spy on you, but let's pretend we don't, publicly, and if something becomes public (one of us is careless), act outraged and protest. (the Lady doeth protest too much)

<comment><USER8> > It's either naivete or posturing.

Possibly a bit of commercial opportunism as well. Regardless of whether it improves security, it would be in Germany's economic interests for more Europeans to use Europe-based webservices rather than U.S.-based ones.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> This is not going to help.

But we now see how the fall out from this scandal will affect us. When I build my next API or service will people around the globe use it? Or will they be skeptical and decide to roll their own or go with an offshore competitor? Very irritating.

<comment><USER12> I believe this may be very helpful. If enough Europeans stop / limit using Google services, then Google's stock price on Wall Street will see the consequences.

Google has powerful lobbyists on Capitol Hill, and they will use their influence to change the playing field such that they either don't have to cooperate as much, or can be more transparent about the cooperation. Either option, or both, would help polish the tarnish on Google's reputation due to this.

Perhaps this is wishful thinking ... kinda like believing Europeans, Asians, etc will build their own Google-replacement ... but it's small a reason for hope, all the same.

<comment><USER13> It's not just Google. It's anything running Apple OSes (iPhones/iPads), Microsoft OSes, Google OSes (Android!), gmail users, AWS, any company _hosted_ on AWS, but, most importantly, any US company built _in the future_.

We've now learned that any US-based company can be secretly forced to spy on their users at the behest of the military. And then in a stroke of genius, Obama went on tv to explain that it's not cause for alarm because it only targets foreigners.

Because we have FISA, because we have secret courts, because we have PATRIOT NSLs, because we have gag orders, every single American internet company now has a permanent credibility problem in the global market.

We're capital-F Fucked.

<comment><USER14> Indeed.

I'd like Obama to explain why any business anywhere has any reason to trust US could services now. Right, they don't. If they're smart they stay the hell away from any US servers.

It's a well known fact that the NSA/CIA are not just hunting for terrorists. Their normal day to day agenda is industrial espionage as well.

I guess spider oak is still ok thanks to client side encryption. Other than that - no thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> They should go one step farther. I would love to see Germany set up a program to woo American tech talent to Germany to work on anti-surveillance systems.

Make it a no strings attached program. All you need to do is move to Germany and work with software/hardware that ensures secrecy. You would be given assistance to either join an existing company or set a new one up. Your choice. Financing would also be made available to build anti-surveillance startups.

<comment><USER16> If they start it, count me in.

<comment><USER15> If someone is in Germany and has access to the right ears in government, you should pitch this idea.

I would love to see some country champion any and all startups and open-source technologies that promote decentralization. We need more projects out there that are consumer friendly and use DHT based solutions like Kademlia for mutually shared data.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I say block all US services in EU. It will be inconvenient as hell and incredibly annoying but it will give European companies a chance to fill the void.

And yes I know it can be bypassed but jumping through hoops is always annoying and if European alternatives show up people would be less likely to bother.

I would do it just to see what happens :)

<comment><USER18> No, the only real solution is for the EU to come up with its own proprietary replacement for the internet. Replace everything from HTML up to HTTP with closed source software built by EU governments. Remove any server or computer hardware either built in the US or built by a company that also services the US, and replace them with systems built in the EU. And since you can't trust American IT workers not to be NSA moles they'll have to expel all of them, revoke American visas and bar Americans from entry into any EU nation.

Only then will Europe be truly free.

<comment><USER13> > Replace everything from HTML up to HTTP with closed source software built by > EU governments.

The new boss looks surprisingly like the old boss, don't you think?

Also, you sort of lost me at closed-source, or are you being hyperbolic for sarcasm's sake?

<comment><USER18> Hyperbole and sarcasm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> No such action will have any direct effect on surveillance. I think it's clear by now that the NSA hoovers everything, regardless of citizenship or location.

But if it has an economic effect, that might get someone's ear.

So yeah, shun US data companies, it may compel the NSA to at least be a little more transparent.

<comment><USER20> Are you saying the NSA is spying even on traffic that never goes near the USA? That would be one of the biggest claims so far.

EDIT: appears the claim isn't as big as I thought, though I'm surprised that's not the case!

<comment><USER21> > Are you saying the NSA is spying even on traffic that never goes near the > USA? That would be one of the biggest claims so far.

Foreign signals intelligence is the whole point of the NSA [1]. The only reason their spying on domestic traffic is controversial is that, unlike purely foreign traffic, there is a history of abuse of surveillance for domestic political purpose which has produced both laws imposing limits on and public expectations of restraint with regard to domestic surveillance.

So, no, the NSA spying on purely foreign traffic with no domestic nexus wouldn't be "one of the biggest claims so far", it would be _exactly what the NSA exists to do and a non-issue_.

It would be news if the NSA _wasn 't_ spying on purely foreign traffic, not if it _was_.

[1] From [http://www.nsa.gov/](http://www.nsa.gov/) : "The NSA/CSS core missions are to protect U.S. national security systems and to produce foreign signals intelligence information."

<comment><USER20> I think that would be news to the rest of the world since it's likely illegal in most of it.

<comment><USER21> > I think that would be news to the rest of the world since it's likely > illegal in most of it.

The specific _details_ of the NSA's (or _any_ foreign intelligence service of any nation) intelligence gathering would be news, but the fact the NSA (or any foreign intelligence service of any nation) actually gathers intelligence outside of its home nation, quite often in violation of the laws of the places from which the intelligence is gathered, really isn't news.

I mean, that's the whole _point_ of foreign intelligence services.

<comment><USER22> It's terrifying that people are even forming strong opinions about such things without understanding such basic information.

<comment><USER20> I was furious when I was under the impression they were slurping up any data that came near the US. Now I'm even more appalled.

<comment><USER22> Precisely my point. Extreme emotional reactions are not a good basis for an informed opinion. Learning about a subject is much more important than telling people on the Internet how mad you are about it. The downside (and I admit, it is a downside) is that it's much harder to maintain that sense of absolute certainty and self-righteousness that constant outrage affords. The world becomes much more complicated and forming an opinion that you can be confident in actually takes effort.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Such short-sighted outcries do not help. He should first consider asking people to stop using US-made, closed source operating systems. Then he should ask Germany's secret service (BND) what they are doing with the data from DE- CIX (e.g. sharing with the NSA ...).

<comment><USER20> Of course it fucking helps. Every step helps. Your suggestion is so useless to be irritating. "Oh, we can't say anything because there might be some asshole on the internet who could make it sound hypocritical. We best just keep doing fuck all because that's worked so well thus far".

<comment><USER23> It does not _expletive_ help to make the problem sound smaller than it actually is, which is precisely what he did with his dumb advice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> The journalist forgets that tapping into the cables only works for unencrypted traffic - this is actually the reason that NSA bothered Google and others in the first place.

<comment><USER25> And you know the NSA hasn't been given or stolen SSL private keys of major players?

Most big sites don't use forward perfect secrecy making MITM achievable.

<comment><USER13> MITM always unambiguously refers to an active attack. That's not what they do or have ever done. It stands for man-in-the-middle. They aren't in the middle when they tap fibers.

Lack of forward secrecy ciphersuites does allow for retroactive decryption upon server secret key compromise though, which is what I assume you meant.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Why doesn't Europe just block US services for "national security reasons?" Like say...china does.

I have to admit, this puts china's blocking in a completely new light...they might have a real argument if I didn't already know they just want to spy on us themselves.

</comment><comment><USER27> Idealistic and hypocritical. That is advice aimed at diverting attention from the full scope of surveillance occurring on the people of Germany.

<comment><USER20> Actions have to be taken. Germany is spying on its citizens. The US is spying on _everyone_. It's pretty obvious where the priority should be here. Man I'm so sick of _any fucking action_ anyone suggests getting met by a bunch of morons pointing out how it might be "hypocritical". Who gives a fuck?

<comment><USER27> Because the US' problem originated in hypocrisy. This world will only change into one that is for the living people when everything that is in truth and falsehood is revealed. To engage in action that is connected to falsehood is to make a relationship with falsehood. To do so under the guise of acting to solve these problems makes oneself a hypocrite.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Expect lots of new Samwer copy/paste startups if people actually care in the end.

</comment><comment><USER29> Like the NSA is limiting itself to just the US? C'mon, if they can do it here without anyone knowing why would they stop at our borders/servers?

<comment><USER12> Exactly. The NSA's purpose for _existence_ is to intercept communications of non USA citizens outside USA borders. Right or wrong, it's simply why they exist in the first place.

The current scandal is due to how much they do it to USA citizens within USA borders ... without getting into the right or wrong of it, the latter is against the Constitution, while the former is not.

<comment><USER30> That might be the focus of the scandal in the US, but it certainly isn't in the EU.

<comment><USER13> Yeah. If Google/AWS/AWS-hosted companies/Apple/Microsoft/Facebook know what's good for them, they'll quickly do literally everything they can to force the US government to stop this foolish bullshit. They have far more non-US-citizen customers than they do US-citizen customers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> What are the alternatives? Why are they more trustworthy?

<comment><USER3> Avoid web services as much as possible and use desktop software whenever possible.

Then make sure your operating system is open source.

<comment><USER32> Open source doesn't imply trustworthiness.

(edit) That's unless you build every single piece of the OS from the source that you either proofread by hand or obtain from a trusted distributor. While you can be reasonably sure that Linux _kernel_ you just built from kernel.org sources (after diligently verifying the .tgz sig, of course) is clean, any of the binary packages you install afterwards may be rooted all the same.

<comment><USER3> Sure, not 100%, but way more than closed source any day.

(edit) Now, for comparison's sake, you'd have to try and apply that same rigour to MS Windows or MacOS/iOS...

<comment><USER33> Would we be able to detect any suspicious activity on our closed source operating system, or would a backdoor implemented specifically for intelligence agencies allow undetectable communication between hosts?

<comment><USER34> We probably would be able to. But consider that the "backdoor" can be incredibly sneaky. Look up the claimed "Crypto AG" attack, which involved pre- internet crypto devices. The claimed way it worked was to include the key or enough data to allow decryption in the transmitted message in some form.

NSA wouldn't need something to contact their data centres and leak the information, because presumably they can tap some fiber connection or other your data ends up travelling to. All they'd need would be a slow leak of your keys. Even, say, just a few of tweaked data per packet, or tacked on to a file format that is resistant to it, so that they can pick up key information together with the data stream, and they're good.

Or even just intentionally introducing a specific way of generating keys, known to the with sufficient precision to allow them to reduce the key space enough that brute forcing the remaining bits is feasible. For a conceptual example, look up the old Netscape SSL vulnerability (Netscape's SSL used to rely on factors like the host time and pid, that especially on a typical Unix-y system also running services like mail servers that often would include the pid of of the delivery agent in headers etc., was extremely easy to narrow down)

It's difficult to do this in a way that can't/won't sooner or later be discovered, but given the number of likely unintentional mistakes that have been made that still have taken in some cases years to be discovered (publicly at least), it's plausible that there are intentional flaws in at least some software to make it possible for specific parties to be intended to be able to break it.

<comment><USER32> Predicatable PRNG is _the_ sneakiest way to weaken any crypto, even those based on mature standards.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> This is the same Germany that issues mandatory RFID based national ID cards, and requires all citizens to register with the police when they change residences?

</comment><comment><USER36> This might be a good time to remind the angry mob that other nations spy just as much, or more so, than the US.

The US just got caught.

This is like the secret of the atom bomb. Once it's out, it's out. No pretending that it doesn't exist any more. Guess what? What you put on the wire is fair game for any of scores of different intelligence agencies. No, not usually the criminal law enforcement folks, but the spy guys.

And most of the politicians in these countries don't know. In fact, for a program like this to be effective, very few people should know.

You can't put that genie back in the bottle by getting mad at the US and pulling your data out. (Not that I blame you. Might make a fine protest. It just does nothing to ensure your privacy and anonymity) In fact, you could actually be opening your data up to even more abuse. Who knows?

The world needs to decide once and for all whether to make this data completely transparent and accessible to all, or an international crime to collect. Pretending this is a USA-only problem is just another way of sticking your head in the sand.

<comment><USER21> > This might be a good time to remind the angry mob that other nations spy > just as much, or more so, than the US.

Probably not "as much"; quantity of spying is limited by quantity of resources available for spying, and the US probably outspends most other nations (quite likely, as with military spending more generally, at or near the amount of all other nations combined) on spying.

<comment><USER37> It is so cheap to collect and store nowadays that your argument won't be true for long, if it even still is.

<comment><USER21> This is true, perhaps, of voluntary collection of data from cooperative partners, which is, to be sure, one of the controversial aspects of the NSAs domestic surveillances that has come out, but hardly the _limit_ of the NSA's spying.

It will continue to require resources to collect information from people who are trying to prevent you from having it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> The only way to stop this kind of thing is to restrict the size of your sovereign nation to a size where the citizenry can actually have some idea what their state is doing ... maxing out at a million or so, say: you dont see governments like Iceland or the Swiss cantons acting in this kind of out-of- control manner.

</comment><comment><USER39> Funny thing is, this is coming from a politician who usually shows no qualms when it comes to invading people's privacy. If anything, he's merely envies the NSA for its extensive surveillance capabilities.

If German politicians really wanted to do something they could to do so easily by granting asylum to Edward Snowden.

</comment><comment><USER40> It's not just the US Web services, the traffic anyway goes through the US and can be intercepted.

<comment><USER13> Germany-to-Germany traffic does not go through the US.

<comment><USER40> You might as well make a closed Internet for Germany only... The point of the Internet is to be global in the first place.

<comment><USER13> Every country already has a closed internet for their own domestic use. It's called the internet.

This makes the article relevant: "Stop using US services."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Just out of interest, given the revelation that the UK is tapping underwater fibres, anyone know if they have a plan to stop doing it? Or they just going to carry on?

If they do decide to stop, how do we check?

</comment><comment><USER42> German here. All these after Snowden proposals from German government or opposition are fake. Either they call it a Hollywood fantasy, want to escalate it to the EU or now ignore snooping happens at the cable.

The day anybody proposes encryption to the public I'll consider to start voting again. And regarding some other comments here, I think it's a stretch calling a country democracy, if the voter turnout is below 50%.

</comment><comment><USER43> I work in a European branch of one of the very large tech consultancies, and I know that decisions to this effect have been made in several of the countries we operate in. There's _a lot_ of money that isn't being funneled to Amazon and the like because of this.

<comment><USER44> Also avoiding the UK and France? Probably not. Why not? Because this isn't really about surveillance, it is about an excuse to boycott the US.

</comment></comment><comment> k-mcgrady I have started doing this with some services and there were good alternatives available. But for search I can't find one. I tried DuckDuckGo for a few weeks but the results were awful compared with Google. Can anyone recommend a good, more secure alternative to Google?

<comment><USER3> > ...recommend a good, more secure alternative to Google?

[https://startpage.com](https://startpage.com) has currently the best results, IMO.

<comment><USER45> ^^ This ^^ has just been added to my favourites bar. I'll give this a go, and if I like it, I'll be removing Google. Thanks for the tip!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Stop using Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, Facebook, Amazon and Apple?

And how's that Baidu filter working for ya?

</comment><comment><USER47> "Can you think of a single European search engine?" Yandex.

</comment><comment><USER48> I'm somewhat amused by the grammatical error in this headline.

</comment><comment><USER3> And some general advice to keep more of your privacy:

1\. Use an open source operating system.

2\. Communicate over RetroShare: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5983913](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5983913)</comment>


Experian Credit Bureau Breached - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/10/01/hackers-just-stole-data-on-15-million-t-mobile-customers/ <comment><AUTHOR> Experian's statement: [http://www.experian.com/data- breach/t-mobilefacts.html?intcm...](http://www.experian.com/data- breach/t-mobilefacts.html?intcmp=tmdb)

Name, address, Social Security number, date of birth taken for 15 million people.

That should end well.</comment>


Show HN: I rebuilt a web-based IDE - <AUTHOR> https://www.atheos.io/ <comment><USER2> This is nice! How does it compare to other options in this area, e.g hosting VSCode online ([1] [2])?

[1]: coder.com [2]: gitpod.io

<comment><AUTHOR> I think it depends on what you're going to use it for. If you're using it for serious heavy professional coding, you might find Atheos lacking, but I'm a hobby coder and I really like it's simplicity and compact form.

I know it goes against best practices, but I code almost exclusively 'in production' since it's easiest for me to do so. Coder, GitPod, and VSCode I believe all have somewhat virtual file managers but Atheos actually directly acts on the files of your server so when I notice a small typo/bugs on one of my sites, I can login and change it without any extra steps.

Atheos also doesn't really have a strong method of code compiling. It does support syntax highlighting of most languages thanks to the Ace Editor (Same as the one from Cloud9), and it does have a terminal plugin allowing you to issue commands to the server directly.

I did take a lot of keyboard shortcuts from VSCode in hopes of making it easier for someone to switch between without too much of a hassle. Having the built in Git Integration that is 99% complete has really helped my workflow as well.

One of the things I really enjoy about Atheos is that it's such a simple codebase that if there is a feature I want or someone asks for, I can add it pretty easily, either as a standalone plugin or built in. At this point, I'm only really limited by my ability to make something.

<comment><USER3> > I know it goes against best practices, but I code almost exclusively 'in > production' since it's easiest for me to do so.

You should not put that on your cv

<comment><AUTHOR> Lol I won't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Is this an alternative to GitHub Codespaces and GitLab WebIDE?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, it's very similar to the Theia IDE, but it's easier (last I checked which was a year ago) to self host with authentication and I think has a much smaller form factor, both on the server and the client.</comment></comment>


If Hackers Steal a Bank's Quant Code, Do We Still Have a Functioning Market? - <AUTHOR> http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2011/03/01/if-a-tbtf-bank-lost-its-quant-code-to-chinese-hackers-and-no-one-knew-would-we-still-have-a-functioning-market/

<comment><USER2> The title implies that we have functioning market today. Let's say a functioning market is something that provides real time price discovery and efficient transaction execution.

I think it's fair to say that a clever person would not have to steal a bank's quant code to take down the market. I'm sure some element of the infrastructure could be targeted.

Maybe a better question to ask is, Do we currently have a fair market and if Hackers steal a bank's quant code would we have less of a fair market?

I suggest this question based on the following quote:

"The bank has raised the possibility that there is a danger that somebody who knew how to use this program could use it to manipulate markets in unfair ways," said Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Facciponti [in regards to the code taken by Sergey Aleynikov]

[http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=...](http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a_6d.tyNe1KQ)

Here we have the bank admitting that the software can be used to "manipulate markets." With these banks having quarters with no losing trading days, are we to believe that they are not using this software to manipulate markets?

<comment><USER3> The manipulation being referred to is most likely some form of layering. Basically, since you know how some bank will respond, you can manipulate the bank's trading program and rob the bank.

This has already occurred even without code thefts. Remember Trillium?

[http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/14/trillium- wa...](http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/09/14/trillium-wasnt-quote- stuffing/)

<comment><USER4> More likely is things like front running, where you use buy/sell something upfront when you know someone else is about to move the market price

Layering is a completely different practice which involves creating an impression of volume when there isn't one (which is strictly regulated in the equities market, less so in others).

It's not uncommon for firms to try and exploit flaws in each others trading strategies, for example a rooky mistake in pricing algorithms is to use the last traded price as the basis of your price, so a common strategy in infrequently traded items is causing a price spike causing the rooky algorithm to go way off market allowing them to be taken to the cleaners.

I've seen firms manipulate prices in weird monotonic ways in order to see how other firms algorithms work in order to reverse engineer them.

I've done similar things myself in order to figure out the internals of exchanges, in one case I was even able to identify an exchange had incorrectly configured it's kernel tcp settings causing an irregular latency spike in their internal systems.

Trading algorithms to some extent have to be designed to protect against vulnerabilities, not because of code theft, but because people are getting very good at doing remote reverse engineering based upon observed inputs/outputs.

<comment><USER3> Front running would be tricky - even if you have Goldman's code, you'll still need to build an infrastructure faster than theirs. Good luck with that.

In contrast, if you can figure out how to implement layering in such a way that their system acts on it, or use price spikes, or something of that nature, you don't need to beat them on speed. You manipulate them, they trade against you as fast as they want to, and you win.

<comment><USER4> Only if you're talking HFT, most quant trading isn't HFT.

<comment><USER3> That is what JSig was discussing, no?

 _"...somebody who knew how to use this program could use it to manipulate markets in unfair ways," said Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Facciponti [in regards to the code taken by Sergey Aleynikov]_

(Aleynikov is the guy who allegedly stole code from Goldman.)

<comment><USER4> Yes the GS code was HFT, but the article is discussing the MS case where there's no indication the code was HFT, the article mistakenly assumes all quant trading code is HFT.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Essentially the problem is the same in the case of stolen documents or quant code, it allows insider trading. And frankly it's a lot easier to make money from insider trading on M&A activity than trying to understand how someone's trading code works.

</comment><comment><USER5> I don't really see how much damage hackers could do with quant code if they don't have the capital to execute significant trades.

If they're working independently, there is no way they could have anywhere near the amount of capital as Morgan Stanley. If they're stealing the code on behalf of the Chinese government, we should probably be more worried that the Chinese government is actively trying to steal from American banks.

</comment><comment><USER6> arguably, we actually have a more efficient market if the code is in the open or if M&A deals are revealed..</comment>


Ask HN: How to learn new things better? - <AUTHOR> So in the spirit of new year's resolutions I'm planning to learn some new things this year; specifically, I want to to draw, and I want to at least get started learning Japanese. I'd also like to keep improving my skill at mahjong, which I picked up last year, and keep on learning tech-related things.
However, I find it pretty difficult to pick up new things. Learning to draw especially is pretty overwhelming for me; I have no idea how to start, as someone with no skill or experience in drawing whatsoever. Learning a language is also pretty intimidating, and it doesn't help that I find the usual way of learning languages (grinding flash cards) to be distinctly awful (not to mention I'm terrible at it).
As HN seems like a community where people love to learn new things, how do you guys go about things like these? <comment><USER2> Maybe just throwing it out there as an additional resource: Coursera has a "learning how to learn" course, which includes lots of references about the theory of learning but many hands-on tips too. It's not too time consuming and doesn't cost anything, so probably can't hurt to look at it. I liked it and try to apply some of the ideas when learning.

[https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to- learn/](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn/)

<comment><USER3> Can somebody who has finished academic education still learn from this course?

<comment><USER4> Yes, absolutely, I took it this year and it helps me a lot. There is also the book "A mind for number"[1] by Barbara Oakley the course author with a little more content if you prefer.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Numbers-Science-Flunked- Algebra-...](https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Numbers-Science-Flunked-Algebra- ebook/dp/B00G3L19ZU)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I enjoyed duolingo ([https://www.duolingo.com](https://www.duolingo.com)) for learning Swedish. I liked the game mechanics, honestly. Here's why:

* Positive reinforcement: cheerful noises and visual progress once I completed a section.

* Negative reinforcement: if I didn't practice at all that day, I would get a notification at 11pm. If I ignored for a while, they were super passive aggressive, saying things like "These don't seem to be working. We'll stop sending them". I felt guilty and would start agin.

* I wanted to keep my daily streak going. It made me feel like Jerry Seinfeld with his "write a joke a day; put an X on the calendar" technique.

* I liked the concepts of experience (exp) and levels; it let me feel like I was making concrete progress, even if I was totally incompetent. I indulged my gamer side while still being productive!

* duolingo works just as well on browser as mobile

* Training sessions were short enough that if I only had a few minutes of downtime, as long as I had my phone on me, I could actually be productive. This made subway rides that much better.

* duoolingo offers a practice mode where I could work specifically on my speed if I had longer chunks of time and wanted to dive deeper.

And today, I can totally speak intelligible Swedish [1]. It worked.

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxoXe5FDIkA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxoXe5FDIkA) – some phrases are off (I should've said "hur man sköter marknadsföring själv") and pronunciation is off.

<comment><USER6> It's personal, but Duolingo has gone a bit south for me. They are (understandably) focusing on getting users to pay. It just hit me in an unfortunate way: Duolingo is all about "streaks". After a fifteen day streak, I was greeted with "You broke your streak! Buy it back for $3.50." I hadn't broken it, I remembered the exact lesson I did, 100%. Sent them an e-mail; no reply. A week later, I'm talking to my sister, exact same thing happened to her 180 day streak... Another e-mail, again no reply.

All in all, a petty detail, of course. It was the lack of response to support e-mail that got me, not so much the situation itself.

Used to be a fan, but that wasn't a great moment. :(

<comment><USER7> Weird how they went down the path of charging money for the 'game' parts, as opposed to the actual materials parts. I'd gladly fork over $50-100 for a mandarin duolingo course with an option for traditional characters. I wonder if these volunteers making courses realise that they can make actual money off of high quality recordings of HSK vocab.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> So, I've spent the last 7 days working on a new feature to help people set and work towards goals.

The concept goal: Learning Japanese! (I've been 'learning' for 3 years now).

Here's a screenshot: [https://i.imgur.com/afAW49V.png](https://i.imgur.com/afAW49V.png).

Basically it's a moodboard that combines a timer, todos, insights, notes, images and links.

'How does that help me learn new things better' you ask?

The challenge with goals - as I see it - is keeping the path from the you of today to the aspirational you (the one that speaks Japanese) clear. January kicks off, a whole bunch of _life_ gets in the way and when you finally get time to focus that path has become a nebulous mess.

The idea with Goals is to be able to open the app and immediately know:

1\. What have I achieved so far: insights on hours spent, tasks completed and how close you are to your goal.

2\. What do I have to do next: this is your "how". Tasks, links, audio files, notes.

3\. Why am I doing this, again? images, media, notes.

The 'Why' doesn't really fit into most methods of learning but I think forgetting this is the biggest point of failure.

I'm going to grab a coffee and get this shipped. I'll post it to Show HN tomorrow and you can see if it's for you.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll be sure to lurk HN tomorrow for it!

Also pleasantly surprised to see Kashiwa Daisuke mentioned in that screenshot

<comment><USER8> You're a fan? April #02 is beyond perfect.

PS: slightly behind on dev. Be sure to lurk tomorrow too, just in case ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've decided to learn many, many things over the years: programming languages, human languages, musical instruments, drawing/painting/art, sports, math, chess, etc...

What it comes down to is spending time getting your hands dirty making things (or getting real practice), even if your output sucks for a long time. (And it will.)

Favorite personal example: One day, when I was around 19, I decided that I wanted to be an artist. I hadn't seriously drawn anything since I was about 10. My current skills were atrocious, but I started drawing every single day, anyway, undeterred.

Of course, at first I was awful. But I copied old master paintings, drew pictures of famous sculptures, etc.; all of my free-time, I spent drawing. And slowly, but surely, I got better at it. I did this every day for probably about 3 years or so, and by the end of it, I was very accomplished. But it was a constant effort that took __years __. I probably did over 1,000 drawings, hundreds of paintings, and so on. And about 90% of them were awful. But the good stuff, it was really really good. I guess that 's the price sometimes. Nobody is a genius all the time. Even Michelangelo, or Picasso.

The thing is, if you find something you enjoy, it doesn't feel like work or drudgery. (Even though drudgery is the only way to get better.) Instead, it's an activity that you _want_ to spend time on, and when you do--time passes so quickly you don't know where it went. It's like living life on fast forward. (Maybe that feeling's the real-life inspiration for the old trope of the training montage. A deep kernel of truth beneath the fantasy, after all?)

<comment><USER10> So,are you working as an artist now?

<comment><USER9> I write software as career, but I still do art as a hobby. I actually tried making a career out of art when I was younger, but it's very very hard to make ends meet, when that's your main source of income.

It's an industry with only a handful of big winners and stars who can make it a fulltime job (at least during their lifetime). And I wasn't quite good enough to be one of them =)

It is really fun and satisfying to make art though, and I'd recommend it to anyone who wants to explore that aspect of their creativity. I feel like I gained a lot in life, qualitatively, from my time focusing on art. 'Hackers and Painters', right? '

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I have been learning to draw for the past 2 months or so. I want to get into digital painting but I am still learning the fundamentals with a pencil + paper.

A few things that have helped me so far:

\- Setting aside at least 1 hour a day to draw. This one is the most important.

\- Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards

\- Fun with a pencil by Andrew Loomis

\- Ctrl+Paint: [http://www.ctrlpaint.com/](http://www.ctrlpaint.com/) especially the Traditional Drawing, Composition, Perspective and Anatomy sections.

\- Sycra's YouTube channel: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0373FA2B3CD4C899](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0373FA2B3CD4C899)

<comment><USER12> For the OP if she happens to have a Wii U I want add Art Academy: Atelier to that list. I'm working through that now and it's keeping me engaged.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Block out your calendar to learn a specific task.

Don't overthink. Just do it.

And after a few months of trying and reading the process will get better automatically.

Key is to just start and be regular.

<comment><USER14> Agreed. Unless you're doing barbell squats it's far more important in my experience to just _get started_.

Waiting to start until you have the perfect equipment or technique or form or strategy raises the starting friction and prevents me from doing a great many things I should be doing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Check out Dr. Robert Bjork's page on desirable difficulties ([https://bjorklab.psych.ucla.edu/research/](https://bjorklab.psych.ucla.edu/research/)).

Additionally, you need to write about whatever you're learning. Essays, reviews, whatever strikes your fancy. Learning really happens when you try to use the information.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'll try writing about what I'm learning, I really like the sound of that! Another one of my new year's resolutions was to start writing things anyways - I feel like I frequently write entire essays in my head, but I never put them to paper.

</comment></comment><comment> rm_-rf_slash I learned Chinese at my best pace by watching Chinese TV streams while practicing calligraphy over and over, as well as studying vocabulary and grammar with the streams of Chinese TV in the background.

Chinese TV sucks. I paid no attention to the ctl+c-ctl+v plots. However it did help me learn tonality in a way that the butchered American classmate pronunciations could never do. Subtitles also helped with learning characters.

I have found that learning works best with as much immersion as possible. It is never as casual as a subway commute crossword puzzle.

</comment><comment><USER16> Spaced repetition is very effective, although again it does require flash cards, but optimizes (i.e. minimizes) the frequency at which you have to review them based on how you are learning.

<comment><USER14> Anki[0] is an excellent, free spaced-repetition app if making paper flash cards isn't your style.

[0] [http://ankisrs.net/](http://ankisrs.net/)

<comment><USER16> Yes, I use that a lot. Mmenosyne is also good.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> On learning to draw:

A bit of background: I drew before I could write, started oil painting when I was 7 or 8. I'm 38 now, and usually work with pen and watercolors.

The first thing I suggest you do is check out some lessons. There are a lot of, "how to draw" for children (and adults) that are really useful - especially for people and animals. I still use reference photos and look up techniques from time to time, actually. I also suggest watching Bob Ross. I might not paint landscapes, but his technique is definitely good - you'll likely pick a bit up even if you don't paint.

I'd also suggest learning about color theory, perspective, and eventually how light sources affect the work - some of these can be forgotten if you do more abstract stuff. Remember, part of drawing is basically training your fine motor skills and muscles to do things: This all gets better with time, and why folks suggest sketching daily. This is the same with painting.

Some folks can paint but can't draw as well: I fully suggest trying some painting along with the sketching. You might find that you like doing abstract art, focusing more on texture, use of space, and colors than actual form too. (You can draw just as abstractly, and doing so is good line and texture practice).

And random advice: Switching from pencil to ink isn't as scary as it seems. It helps to break things up into smaller pieces. Sometimes it helps to change a color photo to black and white.

And I'm out of stuff from the tope of my head.

</comment><comment><USER18> What works for me is to integrate the thing I want to learn into my lifestyle and do it everyday. If I have a day where I am inspired or particularly creative I just funnel that energy into the topic. Along the way I give myself small project goals that emerge from exploring the activity.

The ideal scenario is to become immersed so the topic becomes "part of you".

I also give myself a two year gestation period of incremental learning to see results and build muscle memory. I did this with programming and once you do it with one topic, you will build the confidence that it will come to fruition with anything else you decide to do.

I'm not a fan of peddling the idea that anything worth learning can be learned "fast". It may work for some people, but I think they are the minority. it's been my experience there's usually a fair amount of self deception involved in "fast" learning....or "fast" anything for that matter. This works for some people - I'm not one of them.

If you want to learn a new language then walk around with headphones listening to people speak it. When you talk to people in English in your head ask yourself how to say the same thing in the alternate language. etc....

<comment><USER19> This. I had programmed on and off for awhile, never anything big, until I started doing it everyday. Now it's part of who I am and the way I think, kinda crazy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Even if you're a self-taught person, you don't have to learn everything that way, rather than (for instance) taking a class or otherwise going through a course of study. Not necessarily a university class; check out your local community center, or seek out a local artist that also teaches on the side.

</comment><comment><USER21> The first time I learned a new language I didn't use these tools and I failed miserably. Looking back, I'm thinking "Why did I use 300 hours and spend $X of cash?" without taking the time to learn about learning.

This is especially true with languages, unless you can be fully immersed, but I still recommend it. Look into metacognition and spaced repetition. You'll need a system that works for you but look for techniques backed by research.

Specifically, Fluent Forever is a fantastic book on learning how to learn languages and Scott Young's blog mentioned is great. I second the art recommendation "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain". Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER22> Check out Beyond Brilliance-a book that was just released out of UC Berkeley designed to teach you how to learn. www.beyondbrilliance.org

</comment><comment><USER23> Wow! I feel like we're kindred spirits! Drawing on the left side of the brain is an incredible book that did it for me. I've been writing about language learning all over for years, but this interview with Gabriel Wyner is a great spot to start: [http://lingsprout.com/en/experts/gabriel-wyner-making- your-o...](http://lingsprout.com/en/experts/gabriel-wyner-making-your-own- effective-language-learning-resources)

He was in the process of studying Japanese at the time of the interview and had some specific comments about it vs the several languages he's learned before.

<comment><USER24> You mean Drawing on the right side of the brain? [http://drawright.com/](http://drawright.com/)

I was wondering if there was another school of thought that I missed out completely till now! :)

<comment><USER23> Yeah, that's the one. Guess all the upside drawing confused my left and right :D

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> From my experience it's amazing to spend at least 20 minutes every (I mean every) single day on the thing you're learning. Whether it's playing an instrument or learning language, there are days when you seem to not have time for that - but 20 minutes is easily found, and it really, really, really helps. I think I've seen some research regarding that, but I might be remembering wrong. What I know for sure is that it both helped me learn more efficiently, but also helped me through weeks of lesser motivation

<comment><USER26> Is it still realistic when you want to start multiple things at once? Or should you really go one by one?

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I want to strongly recommend this book on procrastination: [https://www.amazon.com/Procrastinators-Digest-Concise- Solvin...](https://www.amazon.com/Procrastinators-Digest-Concise-Solving- Procrastination/dp/1453528598/)

I started studying (math) at university this fall for the first time in my life. I'm 32 years old. I have extreme problems to adjust myself to the workload that is required. The other freshmen struggle as well, but I have clearly more problems.

The problems arise most noticably when I'm not subverted to direct peer pressure, that is, when I'm not sitting in university to do homework with my group partners. As the workload is (or seems) so extreme, at least for us freshmen, I just didn't have time to do anything else than sit in uni to do homework, often until 8 or 10 pm or even into the night when there was a deadline the next morning.

What I should have done differently so far is prioritizing the learning of material over just trying to get stuff done inefficiently. I realise that these inefficiencies and getting rid of them are a normal part of growing up academically.

The procrastination problem starts to show up most visibly in my spare time, where I have the time but just cannot bring myself to learn the material. This is where the book really helps. I admit, I just finished it and it will take some time to show results. The thing is, I knew for years (which I have wasted partially) that gaming, reddit, HN, twitch.tv, etc. are a strong negative influence for me. The book helped me realise just how bad my procrastination problem really is and it already helped me be more productive in situations where otherwise I just couldn't bring myself to work on important stuff due to distractions.

<comment><USER28> Some tools you might find useful: [https://freedom.to](https://freedom.to) [https://selfcontrolapp.com/](https://selfcontrolapp.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> You could try this technique; MAP training: combining meditation and aerobic exercise reduces depression and rumination while enhancing synchronized brain activity

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4872427/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4872427/)

</comment><comment> daniel-levin I would advise you to be as experimental as possible, and see what works for you. Each person learns things in their own way. Just picking a particular path (such as using Duolingo, as others have suggested) may work. It may not. I have found that this rings especially true in technical subjects.

My personal suggestions are Duolingo, and "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards. I went from stick men to badly-proportioned but otherwise lifelike still-lifes in a few hours with this book. I have a very strong audio memory so Duolingo works well for me. The most important aspect to getting not-terrible at anything is deliberate practice [1]. Drills, and boring exercises work very well for me.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_(learning_method)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practice_\(learning_method\))

</comment><comment><USER30> My methods are divided into 2 -- binge and short bursts. In both I tend to use open ended questioning, perspectives and reflections as ways of enhancing the learnings.

Binge is method I use to learn a lot about a topic in the shortest period possible. I start a binge with either trying to understand more about a topic or to try an see whether a hunch I have in regard to the topic is well worth following.

Short burst is a method I use to learn something more deeply and more over a longer term. In this I put in 5-10 minutes 3-4 times a day maybe for a period of about 2-3 weeks. Then rest and reflect for a couple of weeks and then go through the cycle again.

I have written a post about it here : [http://prjoshi.com.np/2017/01/02/on- learning/](http://prjoshi.com.np/2017/01/02/on-learning/)

Hope it helps.

</comment><comment><USER31> While I'm myself interested in learning more about this topic (the Coursera course mentioned here sounds interesting), I found this book really really interesting:

"So Good they Can't Ignore you", by Cal Newport

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13525945-so-good-they- ca...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13525945-so-good-they-can-t-ignore- you)

It might not go into so much detail on learning (although it touches on the topic a bit), but it puts straight same basic "laws of nature", as I see it, about what really makes you grow: Deliberate practice, and absolutely not the modern phrase "follow your passion".

I like to connect that to the old wisdom of Solomon, in the book of proverbs in the Bible:

"All hard work brings a profit,

but mere talk leads only to poverty."

(Prov 14:23)

</comment><comment><USER32> For your language learning once you get to the point of "I can write sentences reasonably well and can fill most gaps using a dictionary" I'd recommend keeping a little blog or diary and writing to it every other day. It would be even better if you had a Japanese friend who could do a little spelling/grammar checking for you. I've been doing this for a while over email/text with Czech, but have started putting it on a blog - im only three posts in but it's already very satisfying to look back at what I've got. And they can be SUPER mundane and simple too, mine look like they could be written by a child (without the alcohol) - [http://czech.mclemon.io](http://czech.mclemon.io)

</comment><comment><USER33> Some tips from me: -Free language apps or a rosetta stone package for Japanese, children's workbooks are actually great, eg. from 'gifts of the orient' website \- Drawing: find images you like on deviantart or google images and sketch them in your own style Mahjong: possibly do what my partner did with chess; play against the computer, get books on techniques, follow the experts.

The most important thing with voluntary learning is that it stays voluntary- keep the passion! If you force yourself to study at a certain time and one day fail to do so, you'll beat yourself up and lose the will to learn. You're doing this for yourself, so do it with joy. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER34> If you want to learn a language, find a cheap immersion school in a country and spend 3 months there. Guatemala is great for Spanish. I hear Montreal is good for French.

Drawing... well, I'm not having much luck with that. Did 6 months of drawing 1 hour a day last year. Think I got a little better. Reddit has a couple of useful groups to follow:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/learntodraw/](https://www.reddit.com/r/learntodraw/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtFundamentals/)

</comment><comment><USER35> Practice and persistence. It's as simple as that. You won't learn much unless you make time for it. Don't focus too much on learning perfectly the right way, just get started and keep at it.

</comment><comment><USER36> Find a cyclical, ritualized behavior that you can engage in as a way to ramp up towards your main task of the day. For example, first you clean your tools, then you do a warmup, and then you are prepared for something high intensity. You can learn a lot of things by engaging persistently in the warmup activity, and as you feel able, you can "break through" to deeper levels. Don't jump around to different intensity levels or try to force calendar time on them; smoothly build up and then break.

This is how I'm trying to make it work, at least.

</comment><comment><USER37> With any new skill you need to be willing to sink a lot of time into it. And you need to be fine with being _absolutely terrible_ at it in the beginning.

I usually tell people who want to learn to draw to go to [http://johnkcurriculum.blogspot.com/2009/12/preston-blair- le...](http://johnkcurriculum.blogspot.com/2009/12/preston-blair-lessons- fundamentals-of.html), get the Preston Blair book, and start doing these exercises by master animator John K (creator of 'Ren & Stimpy'). You will get a lot better, a lot faster. These exercises focus on simple cartoon characters who wear a lot of their construction on the outside; once you can draw cartoon characters, you can keep drawing more of them if that's your thing, or you can build on top of that and start learning anatomy and drawing more complicated characters. (Or do both.)

There's other well-regarded drawing courses on the internet and someday I should probably pick a new one to send noobs to, what with John K kind of being an asshole - but I learnt a hell of a lot when I worked under him, and he is really good at teaching this stuff.

Most of what I know about drawing more complicated figures came from a combination of Bridgeman's "Constructive Anatomy" and Loomis' "Figure Drawing for All It's Worth", and a life drawing teacher who hewed very closely to Glen Vilppu's drawing manual. If you can fit some life drawing classes into your life then TAKE them, you will learn a ton.

Also: Make a space in your life to do this. I ride the bus a lot, and before the advent of smartphones, I'd have little to do to amuse myself besides stare out of the window, read a book, or pull my sketchbook out and draw. Maybe draw some idea floating around my head, maybe draw something I glimpsed out the bus window, maybe something based on my fellow passengers, maybe just some cubes, or the hand I wasn't drawing with. I got a lot of practice in without feeling like I was making myself "practice". Whatever you may be learning, if you regularly drop yourself into a time and place with nothing much to do besides the thing you wanna learn, then you'll do it more often.

Don't blow several hundred bucks on a ton of paints, or on pro software and a Wacom tablet. Just start with a few hardback sketchbooks and some pens and pencils. Oh, and not mechanical pencils. Just grab like a pack of Ticonderoga 2.5Bs, they're cheap and pretty good. And try holding them so that the _side_ of the point addresses the paper for a lot of the beginning of your drawing; this will do several things for you:

* it will train you to keep your wrist fairly steady, and to draw more with your entire arm; keeping your wrist straight and steady will help keep the Carpal Tunnel Fairy away. * it will make your initial lines light, and prone to fade away as your hand brushes the paper; this keeps you from bearing down to gouge an impossible-to-erase line in the paper, and gives you more room to make mistakes before having a dark, illegible mess of lines you can't draw over.

Don't get lost in trying to save a drawing, either. Paper's cheap, turn the page and try the same subject again, or a new one.

When you make a picture you like, hang it over your drawing board, turn it into your computer's backdrop, and keep trying to draw something better than it. You may find yourself hating it because you start seeing all the mistakes. That's great - go draw something new that doesn't make those! (This may take many tries, some mistakes are harder to stop making than others.)

Don't worry about "your style". If someone points out a mistake in your drawing and you find yourself wanting to say "but that's my style!", then you are just covering up your weaknesses unless you can actually sit down and bust out a version of the drawing that Does It Right. When you can do that you can legitimately say "dis mah style". Steal stylizations from artists you love (you're looking at other people's art, right? A lot?), make your own based on reality.

You will find a lot of people declaring "rules" of drawing. Always do this, never do that. The truth of the matter (IMHO) is that _all rules of art are actually just warnings:_ "never do this" really means "if you do this without thinking about what you're doing it'll probably turn out badly". Know the rules, know which ones you're breaking, and break the _fuck_ out of them while staying well within the boundaries of the other rules you know.

(I spent a decade in the LA animation scene, then burnt out and draw comics now. If you wanna look at my work to decide if I'm someone who you should listen to in this, it's all at [http://egypt.urnash.com](http://egypt.urnash.com))

</comment><comment><USER38> I am currently learning Japanese, I started only a month or so ago. I have found two amazing resources (made by the same people,) that I'm sure will be of a great help to get you started with Japanese. They have a text book called TextFugu, that not only teaches you Japanese, but they walk you through the hard parts of getting started and essentially teach you to motivate yourself to learn. They also have a spaced repetition online program (similar to Anki,) called WaniKani that helps you learn Kanji.

<comment><USER39> Must check out in my opinion: "Human Japanese" (it starts at 0) : [http://www.humanjapanese.com/home](http://www.humanjapanese.com/home)

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Took me many, many years to "learn how to learn".

The key thing to understand is that when learning something new, you will likely be pretty bad at it for a long time until you have practised and researched it ALOT. Then you will find you have gained some expertise.

When you anticipate this, I think you are much less likely to give up on the basis of "I'm no good at this".

Anyone can become competent at pretty much anything, given effort and practice.

AND IMPORTANTLY, by "practice" I mean doing it for real, not doing training exercises.

</comment><comment><USER41> I just read the audiobook version of this: [https://www.amazon.com/Make-Stick- Science-Successful-Learnin...](https://www.amazon.com/Make-Stick-Science- Successful-Learning/dp/0674729013/)

It's pretty good.

The main idea is that learning is supposed to feel hard. That sense of frustration and confusion is what building new neural connections feels like.

</comment><comment><USER42> Tim Ferriss wrote a book on how to learn things fast. It's called 4 Hour Chef: [https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Chef-Cooking-Learning- Anything...](https://www.amazon.com/4-Hour-Chef-Cooking-Learning- Anything/dp/0547884591) He gives a lot of tips but it's up to you to test them out and see what works for you.

<comment><USER43> Here's a cheatsheet so you don't need to read the whole book [http://boingboing.net/2012/11/21/timothy-ferriss-cheat- sheet...](http://boingboing.net/2012/11/21/timothy-ferriss-cheat-sheets.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I find learning more motivating within the context of a project, although that is more relevant to drawing or tech knowledge.

Also, I built a search engine for lectures, which has a lot of talks from tech conferences, which I find helpful for learning about software development topics - [https://www.findlectures.com](https://www.findlectures.com)

<comment><USER45> Thanks for sharing! I really enjoyed looking around the site. What do you use under the hood for searching and faceting, Solr?

<comment><USER44> Yeah, solr- the UI is custom. The real work is getting metadata that gives good signals for quality :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Find someone to learn with you. It is much easier when you are learning with someone. You are much less likely to loose motivation and can focus. If you can not find someone in your friends then you can use [https://colearn.xyz](https://colearn.xyz) to find someone to learn with you.

</comment><comment><USER47> I don't have a reference but when I was learning iPhone development back in 2009, I read somewhere that it's best to learn things in the morning (when you wake up) because your mind is best at absorbing new things. I tried it out and it seemed to improve the pace I was retaining things.

</comment><comment> cha-cho Kathy Sierra gave an informative talk on the topic of learning at the 2015 O'Reilly Fluent conference. It's entitled "Making Badass Developers".

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKTxC9pl- WM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKTxC9pl-WM)

</comment><comment><USER48> I've not done this, but intend to, if you want to learn Japanese I've had many people recommend this to get started: [http://store.steampowered.com/app/438270/](http://store.steampowered.com/app/438270/)

<comment><USER23> You don't need an app to learn Hiragana. I studied Japanese in college and started in a summer class.

Learning hiragana was a requirement _before_ starting day 1.

To be honest it only took a few hours and all we had to do with was a few pages of photocopied writing pages with some mnemonics. Now you can just download the equivalent, or even get a full guide with videos: [https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn- hiragana/](https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/)

Seriously, hiragana/katakana are one area where you don't need a hack. For learning how to actually understand the language, then you'll need to buy books/CDs/Podcast subscriptsions/classes/etc...

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> I think you should feel that things are done frequently. So decompose big things you want to do into little, viable things, and do one little thing a time. So you can feel that you are successful every time, it's great, then it's more likely that you can continue.

</comment><comment><USER50> I was learning with his method, works perfectly [https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/myprojects/portrait- challen...](https://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/myprojects/portrait-challenge/)

<comment><USER51> What have you learned with it so far?

<comment><USER50> How to draw portraits! From a drawing like 7yo to drawing in similar way to his last work. In less than a month. It is really easy. Seriously. It's all about drawing what really is instead of drawing from your imagination. Because normally we are looking at things and still seeing our mental representations not the real objects. This book is most important part (unfortunately all this right/left brain is pseudoscientific, but all other parts are very useful), I didn't do his other exercises, because I was already good with that and have other problems in which I needed to focus. I'm now using his methods (focus and persistence, deliberate practice) and learning to play a guitar. Again, great improvements in no time.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> "Design for how People Learn" is pretty good book on helping people learn.

</comment><comment><USER53> Find a teacher (drawing and japanese), invest time and effort, stick to it. These seem to work for me for most things.

</comment><comment><USER54> I've observed a couple of things about the way I learn and I think that these are pretty general

a.) Print is a lot better than digital.

b.) You shouldn't read books linearly. I generally jump around a lot and read a particular book several times. The first pass might take just an hour or two, I generally try to understand the structure of the book, create a scaffolding of sorts, I might get 15%. During the second pass I might try to get the next 30%. I should have a good idea of the concepts of the book, I might not be able to solve all the problems. In the next pass, get the next 30%. The fourth pass is optional if you really need to understand 100%. The best part is that a lot of times, you don't actually have to do all the passes, the first two might be enough.

The one thing I always hated about school is how you are forced to master each chapter 100% before moving forward. Sometimes going forward actually helps you understand previous chapters because it puts them in context.

c.) Highlighting helps me a bunch. Some people have the issue that they might end up highlighting too much. I don't highlight when it's all new to me, but only after I might have finished the chapter, I'll go back and think about what's important to highlight. It feels like the process of selecting what's important might be more important than the highlighting itself. But when you come back to it later, the highlighting definitely helps. Writing some notes with a pencil in the book is also good.

d.) More important than fully mastering all the material is making sure that you aren't bored or frustrated. If you can't move forward with something, give it some time, come back to it.

e.) Generally if I'm confused, doing a quick review pass from the very beginning of the book tends to clear things up a lot.

f.) Doing a "compare and contrast" between things that seem similar (or even if they don't) is usually a good way of strengthening some connections.

Btw, over the last couple of weeks, I've been trying to learn ML almost full- time. In the process, I think I managed to figure out what are the best resources for this and I'm in the process of setting up a website discussing what I've found. I started working on this yesterday so it's not quite ready yet. However, if you'd like to check out ML in 2017, I'm hoping to make the process a lot less painful. You can sign up here if you'd like to get notified when it's ready

[https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfnksZmz7oH9Vpjtxp1...](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfnksZmz7oH9Vpjtxp1phXLXx2sS4jArtozMiZ0pTKyfA6bgg/viewform)

<comment><USER55> Regarding point b) there even is a book, aptly titled "How to Read a Book" which pretty much explains the similar approach. Although it does recommend to read linearly at first.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> > _However, I find it pretty difficult to pick up new things._

That's the whole idea of it, sonny.

> _Learning a language is also pretty intimidating_

If you're like most people, then the very experience of having learned your very first language, your mother tongue, was probably "quite the struggle, that you never experienced as quite-the-struggle, because you had no preconceived notions as to what constitutes quite-the-struggle".

Doubtlessly everyone keeps at it that finds it somewhat gratifying. Question then, when is it gratifying and when not? I posit it's gratifying not primarily when you garner praise or grades from others but simply when you realize you grasped things about it this week you didn't, or had no idea of, just the previous week.

Just be a kid, poke holes in everything, bend it, try to break it, combine everything with everything, laugh or marvel at what results.

Now languages and drawing are a bit different. What's the point of "learning to draw" when you can't draw the most outrageously "you" way. Don't draw "nicely", that should evolve over time. Draw what comes naturally to you. If only random lines come to you at first, great, that's the first annoyance that'll before long force you to figure out the trick to arriving at slightly- less random figures. Go wild. Languages are slightly different as at the end you want to comprehend and be comprehended. Maybe human languages are somewhere in the middle of the spectrum from wild drawing and highly- restricted formal grammars such as programming languages. If you keep tinkering at these extreme-ends-of-the-spectrum, as always things more-in-the- middle might fall into place a little more easily.

Where am I getting with all of this? Learning (anything) from first-principles by falling-down-and-getting-up and trial-and-error and not-constantly- assessing-your-current-proficiency is the long and hard way, but it's the surefire way and the natural way. And for many, certainly in this crowd I'd wager, the most gratifying one.

> _Learning to draw especially is pretty overwhelming for me; I have no idea > how to start, as someone with no skill or experience in drawing whatsoever._

Well what would be the point of learning if it wasn't overwhelming, if you already knew where to start and where to go from there, if you already had the skill and experience. I truly do wonder now what your definition of "learning" is ;D

I found whenever I invested much time in just enjoying in a deep, "almost professional-fulltime-fan" way, the works of highly skilled creators you respect and admire in a topic (painters/certain comic drawers, musicians when it comes to learning instruments or composition, or for languages brilliant authors of awesome works as well as perhaps poets/songsmiths) the repeated and active and prolonged immersion in their work can set the stage properly and "pre-seed your brain" in profound hard-to-explain-or-analyze ways. This very period of active admiration irresistably leads parts of the brain on a diversionary trail of "just how did they achieve all this brilliance" that'll keep finding new leads and cues to then prompt you to purposely proceed with in earnest.

Quite wordy, huh? I'm sure there's a 1000 handy "learning anything you want in 21 days" guides out there also. Shame I never felt the need to procure one, my I could be a master painter and most proficient converser in a whole _host_ of languages by now! Wouldn't that be impressive. But this never seemed like fun. Wanna learn for fun and with fun, set small goals and even smaller expectations, and allow as much time as possible. Maybe it's just me but "I'd like to be a great painter (or French speaker) in 21 years" sounds like a much more delightful endeavour than in-21-days (or weeks). Because if _that 's_ the outset, chances are as a byproduct you'll already be "really quite decent, better than you expected" after 21 weeks to months but more importantly, by that time you'll no longer even worry about this, as keeping immersedly spending much time with X, Y and Z became just part of who you are as-a-rule.

That's probably the most wordiest way I've ever said "Just Do It and Keep At It". Well I've done my silly deed of the day, time to get back to my own hackery now.

</comment><comment><USER57> I don't have much on learning in general but drawing has been a big chunk of my life so I figured I'd just chime in on that.

Drawing is a giant world that means many different things. Being good at drawing is also very subjective.

A fantastic example of that is the book "Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain" which I see mentioned already. That book is an interesting read and I did enjoy it myself, but I should caution that it teaches more about visually tracing. Some people consider that an example of skilled drawing and if that is what you are looking for then go for it.

From another angle some people consider skill at drawing to be how pleasing it is to look at. This generally has more to do with the line work and shading and color usage. You can draw a significantly anatomically inaccurate arm with beautiful line work and styling and some people would consider that skilled drawing.

Yet another would be to create something from the mind without a visual reference. This has more to do with an understanding of mass and depth and space than either of the two above. And to some people this is what they would consider skilled drawing.

These are only three of the many, many possible goals of a drawing.

Why am I telling you this? Because to me the endeavor of learning to draw is learning what you personally consider a good drawing. The physical world is not made up of lines and smudges. When you draw you are continually making those translations and decisions. That process of discovery is what will lead to you become better at it.

In the end, there are only two reasons why you put a line in the wrong place. Either you physically missed the correct spot with you pencil, or more likely, because you haven't discovered where the right spot is yet.

<comment><USER58> You seem to be knowledgeable in this topic, maybe you know any good books about the other aspects of drawing you are talking about? "Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain" is mentioned often, but other books less so.

Thank you

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> To draw nice quick just focus on fundamental - perspective, creating 3d illusion on 2d, look up coil technique drawing on utube, it really makes even ur stick figures look pro</comment>


Show HN: ArtsySpace an online community of people trying to decorate their space - <AUTHOR> http://www.artsyspace.net <comment><AUTHOR> Hey All! I recently moved in into a new place in New York. Due to COVID-19 I started working from home, so this meant I needed an office desk setup and decorating the room to feel comfortable working from home. That's why I decided to build www.artsyspace.net

I started using the regular channels for inspirations Pinterest and Reddit. Although, I did seem to like images on Pinterest sometimes the posts didn't have links to purchase the items on the post. I also found myself wanting to ask questions to the post owner, like "Hey that is a cool painting where did you get that" or "Thats a nice plant you have in that image what kind of plant is that?" but couldn't.

ArtsySpace is meant to be a place where you can ask questions, share your space decorations such as home office setup, art arrangement or decoration items.

Tech Stack: Rails 6 Tailwind Css Cloudinary ActivateStorage Vanillas JavaScript Turbolinks

I didn't want to use a front end library for this project since I find Rails Turbolinks to speed up the site nicely without the need to have a front end framework.

Would love to hear your feedback, questions, or to connect with me email me at firstname.lastname@example.com

Thanks Ya'll</comment>


US critics of stay-at-home orders tied to fossil fuel funding - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/21/groups-fossil-fuel-funding-urge-states-reopen-amid-pandemic <comment><USER2> Come to think of it fossil fuel companies have been in the disinformation game a very long time.

Maybe we should do something about it?

Edit: changed misinformation to disinformation. I don't think there's any chance fossil fuel companies believe they are telling the truth.

<comment><USER3> Let's have a _Black Celebration_ !

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm1ShCPoD2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm1ShCPoD2s)

(because visuals, oil, war...)</comment></comment>


The terrible truth of climate change - <AUTHOR> https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2019/august/1566136800/jo-lle-gergis/terrible-truth-climate-change <comment><USER2> If you really want some terrible truth...

China draws 70 percent of its electricity from coal and is building 300-500 new coal plants by 2030[0][1]. Nothing we do can offset this new CO2.

[0] [https://www.npr.org/2019/04/29/716347646/why-is-china- placin...](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/29/716347646/why-is-china-placing-a- global-bet-on-coal)

[1] [https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/03/28/china-new- coal-p...](https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/03/28/china-new-coal- plants-2030-climate/)

<comment><USER3> What if there were a border-adjustment carbon tax? So countries that emit a lot of CO2 get taxed into oblivion? That's a thing we could do... (_will_ do: another story)

<comment><USER4> What an interesting idea. Carbon footprint adjusted import\export tariffs. Community enforceable, incentivises r&d and profiteers towards low carbon FP products.

Maybe the tariffs go into some kind of refugee trust, or disaster preparedness account

<comment><USER5> I think would your proposing would be a World-Bank type action. The world bank apparently exists to use loans as leverage to get countries to change policy. That gets close to what you're after.

The problem with using the UN for this kind of action is that the UN has never imposed a tax or tariff. This would be new territory for the UN. I'm sure countries would have some problems with sovereignty. The alternative would be that all nations would act in concert to impose these tariffs.

But then if they did that, you wouldn't have a universal refugee trust. Each nation would still have control over their own finances.

Anyway, I think through the implications of what your proposing I realize why it's been so hard to get anything to change. Any kind of action requires unprecedented worldwide coordination.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hmmm, this post was briefly the #2 in HN, and now it's completely disappeared.... Any idea how that might happen?

<comment><USER3> I'm curious about this as well. It's now #69, 5 minutes later. I seem to recall this happening quite a bit for global warming stories. Anyone from HN want to explain please? Do all 'political' stories get buried?

<comment><USER6> I noticed this too! We have no insight in how this works 'under the hood'. But this one really disappeared disturbingly fast.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> At least Google is doing something about the climate change. The most important people in the world (not you) are gathering in Palermo to tackle the terrible future, thanks to a Google workshop. With at least 114 private jets and yachts, we are digging our grave in a way that even looks beautiful.

[https://palermo.gds.it/articoli/economia/2019/07/28/effetto-...](https://palermo.gds.it/articoli/economia/2019/07/28/effetto- google-camp-114-jet-privati-allaeroporto-di-palermo-1be6fa00-48d0-4efd- be60-f84d4d0a6fad/)

[https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/114657574/...](https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/114657574/graeme- hart-barack-obama-tom-cruise-attending-googles-climatefocused-camp-reports)

</comment><comment><USER8> > One common metric used to investigate the effects of global warming is known > as "equilibrium climate sensitivity", defined as the full amount of global > surface warming that will eventually occur in response to a doubling of > atmospheric CO2 concentrations compared to pre-industrial times.

The article bases its warning on this "equilibrium climate sensitivity" metric (aka "sensitivity"). This widely-used benchmarks allows the many different lines of evidence to be used together and translated into real-world effects.

The article cites a pre-industrial CO2 measurement of 280ppm, and a current measurement of 410ppm. If current trends hold, the doubling point (560ppm CO2) will occur in 2060.

The rest of the article deals with models that are predicting much higher sensitivity than earlier models. In 2013 the estimate was 1.5 - 4.5 degrees C. The new models are predicting 2.8 - 5.8 degrees C, with eight of the (unknown total) models predicting 5 degrees or higher. These results are scheduled to be published in the 2021 IPCC report.

For comparison, the Paris Agreement seeks to limit temperature increases to no more than 2 degrees C.

What would 5 degrees C warming mean for the Earth?

> The most comprehensive summary of conditions experienced during past warm > periods in the Earth's recent history was published in June 2018 ... by 59 > leading experts from 17 countries. The report concluded that warming of > between 1.5 and 2°C in the past was enough to see significant shifts in > climate zones, and land and aquatic ecosystems "spatially reorganize".

> These changes triggered substantial long-term melting of ice in Greenland > and Antarctica, unleashing 6 to 13 metres of global sea-level rise lasting > thousands of years.

To the extent that the models are right and the study of past warming incidents applies in the future, we can expect sea level rises in excess of 6 - 13 meters (lasting thousands of years) by 2060 and significant shifts in climate zones.

<comment><USER9> The ECS isn't particularly helpful for near-term predictions of temperature change. The transient climate response is essentially unchanged in these new models (1-2.5 degrees) immediately after a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere. The ECS is the equilibrium change and could take centuries to fully be felt.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> To be clear, this is a report by Joëlle Gergis, an IPCC contributor, one of Australia's expert contributors to the IPCC. She is reporting on new interim developments on the IPCC's simulations across Europe, Canada, the US and other modelling centres.

Basically, the last models and sims were run in 2013 and reported in 2015. They have since been updated (and will be officially reported in 2021).

As we have updated our scientific models, it looks like the old ones were quite optimistic. Seems very newsworthy.

</comment><comment><USER10> > It was the realisation that there is now nowhere to hide from the terrible > truth.

Sure there is: [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/26/senate- james...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/26/senate-james-inhofe- snowball-climate-change)

<comment><USER11> Oh, here we go: China and India are responsible for 90% of the climate change that we're worried about, but let's blame the Republicans in the U.S. senate for it anyway.

<comment><USER12> China's per-capita emissions are also unsustainably high (~ 7t/year and citizen) but Americans emit about 2.3 times per year and capita. Saving the same, absolute, amount of emissions will certainly be easier when it is a lower fraction of the total emissions (i.e. it's easier to avoid e.g. 1/16th ~= 6% of your emissions than 1/7th ~= 14% (that's 1 ton saved per capita and year in both cases, the former in the US, the latter in China)).

[https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas- emis...](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas-emissions)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Hmmm, from the article:

When the IPCC's fifth assessment report was published in 2013, it estimated that such a doubling of CO2 was likely to produce warming within the range of 1.5 to 4.5°C as the Earth reaches a new equilibrium. However, preliminary estimates calculated from the latest global climate models (being used in the current IPCC assessment, due out in 2021) are far higher than with the previous generation of models. Early reports are predicting that a doubling of CO2 may in fact produce between 2.8 and 5.8°C of warming. Incredibly, at least eight of the latest models produced by leading research centres in the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and France are showing climate sensitivity of 5°C or warmer.

...

Even achieving the most ambitious goal of 1.5°C will see the further destruction of between 70 and 90 per cent of reef-building corals compared to today, according to the IPCC's "Special Report on Global Warming of 1.5°C", released last October. With 2°C of warming, a staggering 99 per cent of tropical coral reefs disappear. An entire component of the Earth's biosphere – our planetary life support system – would be eliminated. The knock-on effects on the 25 per cent of all marine life that depends on coral reefs would be profound and immeasurable.

...

But these days my grief is rapidly being superseded by rage. Volcanically explosive rage. Because in the very same IPCC report that outlines the details of the impending apocalypse, the climate science community clearly stated that limiting warming to 1.5°C is geophysically possible.

Past emissions alone are unlikely to raise global average temperatures to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels. The IPCC report states that any further warming beyond the 1°C already recorded would likely be less than 0.5°C over the next 20 to 30 years, if all anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions were reduced to zero immediately. That is, if we act urgently, it is technically feasible to turn things around. The only thing missing is strong global policy.

<comment><USER14> Question about reef building coral.

I live literally on top of an old coral reef. In the desert. This area was under an ocean 10's of millions of years ago.

As the earth warms won't coral simple colonize along the new coastline? Why will they suddenly be gone? (there may be an answer... I just don't know what it would be).

<comment><USER15> Part of the problem with coral is that the oceans are becoming more acidic, and as a result, it literally dissolves coral skeletons.

<comment><USER14> I can see acidification being an issue for sure. And CO2 is supposed to increase acidification.

But many geological reef formations are very old, 10's or even hundreds of millions of years old.

At the time these reefs were formed, CO2 levels were much much higher than they are predicted to be any time soon.

Yet somehow the reefs were constructed anyway and corals as a species pulled through. In spite of CO2 levels (per Wikipedia) '''between 200 and 150 million years ago of over 3,000 ppm, and between 600 and 400 million years ago of over 6,000 ppm''' (what are we at today? like 400ppm?)

The reef I live on incidentally is thought to have been formed like 265 million years ago. At which time CO2 levels were possibly an order of magnitude higher than today.

So I really am a bit confused still.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I wonder why this submission was flagged?

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought it meets the guidelines.

It's by Joëlle Gergis, one of Australia's climate experts who contributes to the IPCC reports.

She is reporting on recent developments in IPCC model simulations that are being run, and her perspective on this new information and how it should change our understanding of climate change.

Seems highly newsworthy and relevant to HN.

<comment><USER12> I'm convinced it's not a problem with the guidelines or source. I would assume it was killed because it was flagged by users. Maybe someone is brigading this topic?

I guess you can only wait and see if the mods reverse the decision.

<comment><AUTHOR> Someone above claimed it was "off-topic". Any idea how to get it unflagged or bring it to mod attention?

This seems like a very important article. Just as a point of comparison, tree planting is great and all, but something like ~100 entities are responsibly for 71% of all emissions.

<comment><USER12> I asked the mods via email and the flags looked normal to them. It seems like it has been the one too many climate change post recently and that some people got annoyed and flagged it because of that. What a pity.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Accepting the fact that we're just like any other animal on this planet, merely along for the ride until the day we're done, will help curb the rage and grief felt towards the planet's reformation.

This is just what happens here. Species rise and fall, lands rise and sink, yet the Earth spins on until some other shit starts to happen on the surface. We just happened to fuck it up for ourselves faster. Humans have been good at that since day one.

</comment><comment><USER17> And yet the terrible truth of the Methane Hydrate - Permafrost feedback loop is still being ignored. The arctic is already burning, exploding in some areas.

</comment><comment><USER18> After reading the 2018 IPCC report for policymakers [1] the major thing I took from it was this:

The stated impacts of further warming aren't grave enough to justify nations taking the steps needed to mitigate them.

For example, the more immediate and impactful conclusions from the report are these:

 _In urban areas climate change is projected to increase risks for people, assets, economies and ecosystems, including risks from heat stress, storms and extreme precipitation, inland and coastal flooding, landslides, air pollution, drought, water scarcity, sea level rise and storm surges (very high confidence)._

 _Climate change can indirectly increase risks of violent conflicts by amplifying well-documented drivers of these conflicts such as poverty and economic shocks (medium confidence)_

To which most readers would more or less shrug and move on because it's not tangible what these general impacts look like and unclear why they couldn't be mitigated or absorbed at the time of event.

Said another way, it would take a MASSIVE and unprecedented shift to the average, and an increasing portion of the global populations way of living, to slow warming significantly.

Namely, "to restrict global warming to 1.5°C, global ambition needs to increase fivefold." That implies that the current state of the global economy would effectively ground to a halt.

So what people hear is: We must completely change our lifestyles to prevent some chaos somewhere unknown down the line. I think all of social science tells us that humans are bad at this kind of long term planning.

The challenge here is that there is a huge gap between what is meant by climate scientists with statements such as "the very foundation of human civilisation is at stake" and what people can "touch and feel" making the sense urgency seem overblown.

Even things like "Cyclone Tracy is a warning" fall flat because "there have always been storms" and the causal relationship isn't direct - it's statistical and that's not something that politicians and the public generally can grok.

Contrast that with something like WWII which the US was staying largely removed from, until Pearl Harbor happened. That was a direct, causally linked, explicit and objective event that pushed an entire nation to change their behavior - but it was also time limited.

I'm not sure what needs to happen, but my guess is that until there is a "Pearl Harbor" for climate change, which I don't think is really possible, very little substantial will be done.

[1] [https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/AR5_SYR_FINA...](https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/AR5_SYR_FINAL_SPM.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER19> As Australia's "left wing" shift further right after their recent election loss, and the most popular newpapers reflect a right wing Murdoch perspective that seems to sell well, one which frequently decries any green party in Australia as unreasonable, and the majority of political violence being enacted by the right (e.g. the Australian shooter who flew to New Zealand and killed 49 that was quickly moved on from, vs the "left" being repeatedly berated for dumping milkshakes on politicians), is it reasonable to say that we live in a deeply suicidal age? The will of the majority appears to me to be deeply right-wing, and power, both through violence and politics, seems to be permitted only if it is appropriately right-wing. Are we headed towards the end of the human era due to a continued slide rightwards?

<comment><USER20> Please don't take HN threads further into ideological or political battle.</comment></comment>