Ask HN: How important is it to be with peers you can learn from? - <AUTHOR> I am a younger developer (3 years) who has been fortunate enough to be given a lot of responsibility in the projects I work in. I spend most of my time teaching myself what I need to know or have to know for the job. I realized I currently don't learn much from my surrounding peers (small team: 2 other senior level developers). To increase velocity, my company recently contracted some of the work for our project. And from my experience working with these contractors I have learned new things that I wouldn't have gotten from my peers or teaching myself.<p>How important is it to learn from your peers or be surrounded by peers that you can learn from? <comment><USER2> Always strive to be the stupidest person in the room, despite being as smart as you can be - as long as the people you interact with don't make you feel bad (either because they are being a-holes, or because the difference in knowledge/experience/attitude is too big to be useful).

I've had the fortune to be in that position for a very long time, and I wouldn't do it any other way. Many people / teachers / mentors don't know the limits of their knowledge, regardless of how well meaning they are (and some aren't). Intellectually aim the highest you can afford to. Luck has a lot to do with it, but you can (and should) help luck.

That's true about your career, but also about other stuff like sports, music, or any other hobby.

<comment><USER3> I'm in the unfortunate situation where I'm not the dumbest person in the room. It sucks, having to learn things the hard way digging through stackoverflow questions / blog posts when you can ask a question right away / get an answer.

I learned everything about programming myself with just online materials available to everyone. When I started stagnating & had issues managing this work project, I set aside a budget to subcontract more a much more experienced developer. Then I started attending meetups, starting working on nonprofit projects so I can learn from others smarter than me.

The lesson here is that even if you aren't the stupidest person in the room, _you_ can make yourself not the smartest either. You are just a few emails away, a small sized budget to pretty much getting any teacher / mentor you want, and communicating via slack. You can always crowdsource answers and advice on reddit/stackoverflow

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Extremely important. As a junior developer, it was important for me to have people smarter or more experienced than me to bounce ideas off of and to help me understand concepts. Things like "Why use Git? SVN is perfectly fine!"

I don't know if this is true for everybody but there was a window of time where I got to work with senior developers before I became a tech/people manager. That was the time I worked at several different companies and learned from experienced developers before I got put in that position. You want to absorb as much as you can during that time because opportunities become slimmer down the road.

<comment><USER5> Are you absolutely certain you're not following fashion here? To pick your example... yeah, there are some advantages of Git over SVN, and in particular some scenarios where the "distributed" side of DVCS becomes important. On the other hand, there's every chance that SVN really _was_ perfectly fine for your project (after all, in its heyday it was very common, and there are still large projects using it today).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> IMO very important, it actually lead me to leave for another opportunity within my company.

I was 23 at the time with about 3 years of experience, so still a junior but I was the longest-tenured employee on our team. We kept picking up new hires, but never internal transfers. That put me in a position where I was the most familiar with our tech, stack, and business intent. I really enjoyed teaching everything to our new hires again and again, as it helped me further understand the how and why of my job.

Ultimately I realized I wasn't growing as much as I wanted to and looked for another position. Being in charge was fun, but I felt like I needed to surround myself with better developers.

</comment><comment><USER7> Short answer: Very.

Longer answer: I think one's skill level starts to taper off (or degrade / converge down to) the peers that they work closely with in time. This works both ways. Books and online sources can steer you in the right direction too, but generally with smaller effects. Approximately 1/3 of your day is spent in the office anyway.

Having worked at two startups now, both have very different senior engineers that have different philosophies on what good code is like. Neither camp is wrong, but I've learned to see things from another angle ever since. You then can bring cross pollination to the table to make contributions that one party isn't aware of before, or fill up a gap in your knowledge / skillset that you otherwise would've missed by not being exposed to others outside your common circle.

<comment><USER8> Not a developer but I'll echo the sentiment above. I think especially in your career it is critically important to be surrounded by people you can learn from. This also implies (to me) that they are 'high performers' with something worth teaching and therefore likely to be promoted and/or do something interesting in the future and these are the type of people you want to be around for general career development and network as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I would say it's critically important. You may be a good self learner, but even then you may not know _what_ to study. It's the whole unknown unknowns situation.

Another thing I would point out is that your peers offer more than just textbook-style knowledge. They can offer concise, intuitive explanations tailored for someone at your level. They can demonstrate the things they're teaching. They can provide immediate responses to any questions you may have.

</comment><comment><USER10> Very, but even more important is to be around people you _want_ to learn from.

</comment><comment><USER11> I've worked remote at a previous job for 8 years. The company really didn't handle communications with remote employees very well. Between that and not having the daily "coffee" chat with other employees, I felt I was missing out a lot. You can read all the stuff you like, but at times there is nothing better then bouncing ideas off your co-workers and seeing what sticks.

<comment><USER12> I'll second this. So many bugs become easy to solve when you try to explain the problem to a co-worker.

At my last job, we had a rubber-duck in the middle of the development floor. The first test was "Explain your problem to Ducky". About half of the time, the developer doing it would have a sudden epiphany half way through the explanation.

You could even book meetings with Ducky on Outlook... "Five-minute standup meeting with Ducky, meeting room 1"...

<comment><USER5> The fact that the duck can work (and pretty clearly it can for many folks) rather makes me question whether the co-workers are as important as some make out...

Aside: I'm rather sad Stack Overflow didn't keep their April 1st rubber duck feature. I wonder if it actually worked "too well" and cut down on questions submitted...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> As someone who has spent about 10 years in the software development industry, I have mostly worked with people with either less experience than me or no experience at all. I felt like I wasn't progressing much and the feeling of a stagnation in self-growth became a burden, so I sought a new job where I thought I could learn different methodologies from people who have been in the industry longer than I have.

What I have mostly learned is that everyone has different opinions as to which approaches are best and that engaging in discussions with your peers is an important part of teaching each other different aspects and perspectives of your work.

Learning programming languages and its quirks are generally things you can learn on your own, but there are a lot of little tidbits and good practices you can pick up from peer code review. As my horizon expands from working with different people on different projects, I feel more confident with my work and while coaching others afterward.

</comment><comment> Jian-Yang You are the mean of the 5 people you spend the most time with. So always try to surround yourself with people you can learn from, especially in the first years of your career. I personally find that the best growth comes from people that challenge you and make you challenge yourself.

</comment><comment><USER14> I'm going to be a bit different here and say that it's important, but not something you should have through your entire career. That's because in my opinion, teams where you're the best in the room and teams where you're the worst in the room both have their pros and cons, and I believe a good developer/software engineer should experience both.

For instance, here are some benefits of working at least one job where you're the 'smartest' in the room:

1\. You get to experiment more with new technology, and learn more skills and languages that you may not otherwise have bothered with.

2\. There's no one to turn to if things are tough, hence you're given a real reason to put the work in and learn things for yourself. Being the 'dumbest' in the room all the time makes it too easy to coast on the knowledge of others.

3\. It gives you a chance to experience what it's like when a major responsibility or project is on your shoulders, as well as how you deal with working under pressure (like say, being the one guy who has to fix a major client's website after the database crashed at 4pm on a Friday).

4\. You get the responsibility of teaching others, rather than always being the one taught by them. Again, that's a nice thing to have experience with, especially if you want to get started with conferences and ebooks or what not.

5\. And if you're literally the lead developer there, it also teaches you a lot about how to talk with management and make your case for new technology, best practices, etc. Yeah that's more people skills than tech ones, but you really need both if you want to do well in your career, and being the go to guy forces you to get better at that.

So yeah, I'd say while it's important to be with peers you can learn from, you also want at least a few jobs where you're the one other people are learning from as well. Don't always be the dumbest or smartest in the room, mix it up a bit and use both situations to learn as much as you can. You'll be a better developer or software engineer for it.

</comment><comment><USER12> Definitely a big thing for me. I've spent a couple of years as the "smartest person in the room". As much as it's great to teach, but it's even better to learn. Or maybe that's just me. The skill gap has been huge though - me plus a team who learned "on the job".

Putting in the best-practice and infrastucture to do a good job was interesting though. We've gone from zip files on a network share to automated builds an CI, and the CI tool even generates the final release ZIP files and test reports. From bug tracking in Word to bug tracking in Jira...

And on a budget of "zero or as close as possible" too.

</comment><comment><USER15> Learning from others is invaluable.

Listen to the perspectives of those around you, but don't regurgitate what they say or follow what they say blindly. Ask them questions, challenge conventional wisdoms and ask "Why".

Experience is a form of bias and must always be taken with a clear head and a grain of salt.

My grandfather would always say: Advice is free, until you take it.

Good luck!

<comment><USER16> I learn _most_ stuff by myself. Sure it speeds up the process a bit when someone teaches you, but often making all the mistakes by yourself you get a deeper understanding.

<comment><USER5> I agree. I worry about processes like Scrum which put so much emphasis on resolving "blockers". Being able to spend a couple of days bashing your head against something thorny is a really important part of learning practical knowledge.

<comment><USER16> I am kind of surprised at everyone here saying how important it is. I would say its a far more crucial skill to be able to learn by yourself for this industry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> This is very very important IMO. It doesn't matter if you're a junior developer or a senior developer, it always pays to be around people who know more than you and at the same time have the right attitude when it comes to dispersing knowledge.

Brilliant jerks, people who incessantly complain are not worth your time. :)

</comment><comment><USER18> It's important. But not totally.

Another factor to consider is variety in your workplace education. There's a lot of value in working in different environments, industries, surroundings. It comes at a cost, but brings many benefits.

</comment><comment><USER19> The product itself used to be my #1 priority when searching for a developer job. Dating apps? No thanks. Smart doorbells? Yeah ok...

But then that changed when I brought on a senior engineer on my team that was worse than mediocre. I can't do anything about it because he plays office politics better than he can write code.

Because of this experience, my number one priority with my job hunt is finding a small, talented team to work with. Compensation and the product itself fight for second place.

It's advice I don't think most people have the privilege of exercising, there are bills to pay, but you really ought to not work with anyone you can't invision yourself working with for the rest of your life (or maybe a decade or two at the least).

<comment><USER19> To add some more practical advice, I would search for employers that have good internship programs. I think it's ideal to learn from both students/new grads and senior engineers with proven experience. The most enjoyable learning experience I had on the job was when I had a recent CS grad on my team.</comment></comment>


It's too late to collect sand - <AUTHOR> https://secondbreakfast.co/its-too-late-to-collect-sand <comment><USER2> The page does not render correctly; something to do with the logo loading. For reference, here's the brief story told:

> It's too late to collect sand

> When I was 13, my family went to California. We walked along a beach near > Mendocino. I'd never seen black sand before. I wanted to bring some home.

> So I got a ziplock bag from my mom, scooped some sand into it, and put it in > my backpack.

> When I got back to Birmingham, I put it in a jar and placed it on my > bookshelf. "Cool," I thought.

> But I only had one jar. It wasn't going to be "Really Cool" until I had a > bunch of jars.

> I was missing the jar of sand from the Gulf of Mexico. I was missing the jar > of sand from the Caribbean. I was missing the jar of sand from the Eastern > Shore in Virginia.

> "I've been to so many beaches already! And I never collected sand before > now."

> So I scrapped the whole idea. What was the point in collecting jars of sand > when I hadn't started from the beginning? I'd never recover from missing the > jars I could've already had.

> What a ridiculous thought.

> I fall for this trap repeatedly.

> "I haven't been keeping a journal since childhood, I'm missing so much."

> "I didn't blog the first half of my trip, so what's the point in the second > half?"

> "I haven't been keeping track of contacts in a CRM, I'm missing so many > people!"

> "I haven't been running, I'm so far behind."

<comment><USER3> "Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly"

<comment><USER4> I like this one:

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."

<comment><USER5> Whenever I hear this saying, even though I know it's sort of pedantic, I can't help but wonder: _but what about 19 years and 364 days ago?_

<comment><USER6> I'm so glad you posted this—I have the same problem with this aphorism. I'm craving a more precise way to express this idea. Maybe "it would have been better to start five minutes ago, but starting now is better than starting in five more minutes."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."

<comment><USER8> I was at a lecture once and the speaker recited a hypothetical conversation he had once had:

"Someone asked me, 'When is the right time to plant a tree?' I responded, '20 years ago.'"...

But it ended there, he never followed up with your second sentence. Odd, because that's way more salient!

However, what surprised me was that some in the audience took it as a defeatist statement, while others took at is motivation. It seemed clear to me that it was intended to be motivational. How could this anecdote be defeatist? I still don't understand that sentiment. Literally every day is ANOTHER chance to start a habit, trend, experiment, set a goal, etc. that you forgot to do yesterday. For me that's a relief because I'm always forgetting shit.

Maybe forgetting that last sentence makes it seem doomed.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, I admit it's easy to get into the mindset that you're already doomed because of reason after reason after reason. Just look at how people respond to climate change... well, or to people posting their hobby projects on less friendly aggregators than HN (though we fall victim to the "well I'd have done it this other way better" incredibly disheartening responses to someone teaching themselves a new skill and wanting to show people).

The tree quote (ancient Chinese proverb, I do not know more specific origins) is especially salient given that you're not planting the tree to make the planet better today, you're doing it so that future generations can benefit because it's the least you can do. But for most things the timeframe is shorter; I've seen 60 year olds start karate for the first time and 80 year olds go to college.

The important part is to not get in your own way with a defeatist attitude. Not wishful thinking, you'll still have to work hard to get to where you wish you were. And as a disabled person I also know that sometimes it really just isn't practical. But it's important to remember that how you spend your life is for you, not to impress other people.

<comment><USER8> > ...and wanting to show people

I still don't quite get this need to show strangers. I've had it explained to me, but I'm pretty sure it is part of a cultural shift, i.e. I'm old.

Like, if stranger's approval is needed, doesn't that mean you're LESS likely to do something since it isn't guaranteed? Or maybe it is easier to start something BECAUSE there are so m any strangers willing to offer support. Either way it seems like putting success/fail in the hands of external forces.

> Not wishful thinking, you'll still have to work hard to get to where you > wish you were.

Yeah, exactly. The accomplishments in my life with the most meaning are the hardest ones. But I don't know if that's universal. I read the book "Flow" in 1991 and it changed my life, and your quote is kinda the central thesis.

:

:

Ironically, I planted four trees last year and three haven't started to bud yet (the fourth one is), which means I prolly killed them. Maybe still too wintry. / _sigh_ /

<comment><USER7> So, to respond seriously, I'm somewhat of an artist and I derive a lot of joy from others enjoying my pieces. I assume that's a large part of it, other people just have mediums that are more like "weird programming language tricks" or "cool math". But if someone doesn't like my piece it has very little impact on what I do next, much less my feelings at the time. Some people like stuff, some people don't. But the showing part is necessary for it to be art.

You might well be right that it has to do with getting the approval of strangers (certainly a phenomena for low energy barrier stuff like posting to twitter), but I think I'd give people who put in enough time to figure out how to solve a weird new problem the benefit of the doubt that they want to share it because they find it cool and you share things you think are cool.

But maybe that part of culture has changed, I've only got a little grey in my beard but I don't remember a time when my friends _didn 't_ want to show me something they found cool. Maybe the change is just that people see internet strangers as "friends they don't know yet"? I dunno, I gave up on social media because I don't think this is true on those platforms anymore.

So I'd say that, hopefully, whether a stranger approves at the end of your project is besides the point, and the sharing is because you think people who share interests with you will be interested (or possible collaborators, mentors, or mentees!) and you're proud of the quality of your work. It's also useful as an online portfolio if you ever need to find a job to be able to point people at that has lots of posts of professional quality about projects you've done.

<comment><USER8> > I'm somewhat of an artist and I derive a lot of joy from others enjoying my > pieces ... > I think I'd give people who put in enough time to figure out > how to solve a weird new problem the benefit of the doubt that they want to > share it because they find it cool and you share things you think are cool.

Ah. That's a helpful way to frame it. Now that you put it that way, I think can understand it, it just seems distant. I can see that I'm not wired that way. Example: I played music in various bands for about 20 years, and for me it was about that shared experience of flow, locking in with the drummer and the guitar player and feeling like the song was in control, not us. But for other members of the band(s) it was about being on stage and hearing an audience cheer that drew them in. Same experience, totally different perception.

Of course, it appears at this instant that I am sharing with you (a stranger) my thoughts (because I think they are cool). So perhaps I simply literally do understand what you are saying by evidence that I'm doing it. /head explodes/

Provocative response, neltnerb.

<comment><USER7> I definitely think people are wired both ways, to an extent. Sometimes people are just sort of... craftspeople who mostly keep to themselves. But I agree that's been mostly older people so far, though I don't know... Samuel Clemens certainly liked the spotlight.

So maybe it's just a personal trait that has perhaps gotten more visible lately due to the ease of communicating. People always wanted their five minutes right? But maybe it's more common, I can see people posting low-effort communications simply to get the approval of their in-group. Maybe even high- effort material, though at some point I'd hope the high-effort stuff gets out to the rest of us.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I just finished David Epstein's 'Range' last night, and one of his admonitions in the conclusion seemed pertinent:

> "Don't feel behind. ...Compare yourself to yourself yesterday, not to > younger people who aren't you. Everyone progresses at a different rate, so > don't let anyone else [including you] make you feel behind. You probably > don't even know where exactly you're going, so feeling behind doesn't help."

He also notes a number of athletes and musicians who started "late", including Steve Nash and Sviatoslav Richter.

<comment><USER10> Apparently Steve Nash started playing at 12yo. That hardly passes off as starting late.

<comment><USER11> Compared to the Tiger Woods' school of thought where you put a golf club in the hands on an infant it's very late.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> It's never to late to collect sand, but don't be a hoarder. Did you know that sand is a precious commodity? [https://www.businessinsider.com/global-sand- shortage-could-c...](https://www.businessinsider.com/global-sand-shortage- could-cause-damaging-effects-2018-12?r=US&IR=T)

Don't have regrets, they move the focus away from today and your future. Mostly, live in the now. Things are just things, appreciate the living. All things can be replaced, the living can not.

</comment><comment><USER13> I was thinking that this was related to [https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sa...](https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sand_wont_save_you_this_time)

However, I haven't actually been able to load the page yet.

<comment><USER14> I was thinking it would be about people running out of easily accessible river sand for concrete.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is why I started guitar lessons at 41. At 30, I didn't because I was upset with myself for not starting when I was 20, and now it was "too late" somehow.

<comment><USER16> The funny part about this one is that you can go from zero to really good with under two years of focused practice.

Most people don't do focused practice over time because when you're actually forcing yourself to learn and get better at the edge of your ability it's hard.

I think people get better in the beginning when they know nothing, but once they know a few things most people just plateau at the level where they can play the couple of things that they know without forcing themselves to get better.

Children mostly are forced to do it, with all the advantages and disadvantages of that process.

All this is to say in the majority of cases you can trivially catch up if you're interested in learning a new skill.

<comment><USER17> The best part of learning an instrument is that it usually just takes a couple of months of deliberate practice before you can play well enough to enjoy yourself. You don't need to have the finer details in place in order to play a song.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I once thought it'd be nice to do a blog post on all the cellphones I had owned, but after a ton of searching by year and type, I couldn't find photos of the two earliest cellphones I had. I scrapped the idea.

I do have photos of most of my workstation/computer setups since I was in high school. I'm currently drafting a post on all my workstations, and while I was digging through photos and editing the post, I came across photos of my very first two cellphones; photos I had taken so I could put them on eBay in the early 2000s!!!

I still have no idea what the model number of one of them is, but who cares?! I have a photo. I started to make a list of every phone I had since then! I'm glad I'm a data horder, even if I lose a ton of photos in the mess of my disorganization.

</comment><comment><USER19> Take only memories, leave only footprints. _Please_ do not remove sand from beaches.

</comment><comment><USER20> It's an interesting sort of retroactive procrastination.

Procrastinating because you missed the subjective "optimal time" to begin.

<comment><USER21> As a big league procrastinator, it's just another tool in the toolbox.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> and foremost, illegal: French tourists face jail term for stealing sand [https://www.bbc.com/news/world- europe-49394828](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49394828)

<comment><USER23> > A French couple who were caught with 40kg (90lb) of Sardinian sand in their > car

I imagined they took a tiny vial of sand as a memento. This is not that.

P.S. There's an extra ">" at the end of the URL.

<comment><USER24> Regardless of legality, you shouldn't be taking sand as a souvenir. Beaches are a natural resource for both people (recreation) and animals/plants. They provide food, breading grounds, habitats...

Leave no trace.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> well in some cases it is, given our sand mining for silicon lol. but no i get the point of the article. even if your behind now. start, dont fall for the trap its too late.

</comment><comment><USER26> "Collect what?"

"Collect sand."

</comment><comment> vincent-toups I thought this was going to be about stockpiling sand because of semi- conductors.

<comment><USER18> When I first started reading it, I thought he was going to tell us all the sand was gone or the beach was too polluted.

<comment><USER27> I definitely thought this would be climate change related, or perhaps something to do with carbon dating not being accurate since nukes.</comment></comment></comment>


Ubuntu 16.04 Unity 8 current state [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpytMl7FRvs <comment><USER2> Unity (and many other Linux UI projects really) current state: reinventing the wheel, with chances of hitting a usability sweet spot just before the next rewrite.

[https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Guide_to_X11/Window_Managers](https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Guide_to_X11/Window_Managers)

<comment><USER3> Unity 8 looks a lot like Unity 7 which I use daily. While a lot is changing underneath there's definitely a feeling of continuation in the user experience.

The 3d desktop effects, however, don't seem to be the future. I loved the Compiz cube when if first came out and it impressed onlookers at the time but these things don't add to your enjoyment of using the system after a (fairly short) and they never make using it easier.

<comment><USER4> I have to admit I still like and use the Compiz cube, but what I really like is the Wobbly Windows effect. It may seem cheesy to many, but it's oddly satisfying to me. And it's really smooth even in VirtualBox.

<comment><USER5> I love my wobbly windows. It's an effect that you can only do on an open source desktop. I don't doubt that Microsoft or Apple could implement wobbly windows if they really wanted to, but it's a silly effect and servers no real purpose, so they don't. It's a bit of bling that makes my desktop look futuristic when I drag terminal windows around.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I actually grew used to using Unity after some time, so much so that I now prefer even the windows taskbar to be on the side of the screen and not on the bottom when I am on a windows box.

EDIT: Removed part of the text that was actually about ccsm

<comment><USER7> I put the Ubuntu Utopic Unicorn as my desktop* for my Windows machine to help me feel better when I have to use it :P

*Edit: I mean as my wallpaper.

<comment><USER8> Wait, you mean to say you run unity as the DE for the windows OS?

<comment><USER9> No, I think he's literally running Unity on Windows 10. I believe it's possible with WSL layer and Ubuntu for Windows 10.

edit: [http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/07/someone-just-installed- un...](http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2016/07/someone-just-installed-unity- windows)

<comment><USER7> Wow, that's really cool! Though rather un-amazingly I just meant as a wallpaper :/

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think this shows off why linux desktop enviroments aren't up to par with other systems. At one point the recorder clicks what I assume is a button to open an image they download in "Gallery" and nothing happens. Did it open in the background? Is it loading? No idea.

Also, another issue is that there are thousands of different ways across all of the apps for how to interact with them. Some have "Quit" options, some have top bars, some have icons everywhere. There isn't cohesion. I wish there was a "Linux-Desktop Standard" like OSX and Windows have but no one would ever agree on anything so it would go nowhere unfortunatly.

<comment><USER11> "Also, another issue is that there are thousands of different ways across all of the apps for how to interact with them. Some have "Quit" options, some have top bars, some have icons everywhere. There isn't cohesion."

How is that any different from Windows?

<comment><USER12> I cant think of any two Windows programs I use who's basic interaction varies as wildly as Linux program interaction can vary.

<comment><USER13> Aren't the ribbon menu in Word, the classic menu and the Chrome/Firefox "menu" button wildly different?

<comment><USER10> Most users dislike the Ribbon menu. When I've setup systems for people, and family, and they requested "word" they are expecting this [0]. When they see the ribon menu they feel "I don't want to learn this, I already know word, this isn't word". The average user also doesn't open or change anythign in a browser. All they do is type into google. None the less they dislike those changes too. Cohesion is the most important thing in an enviroment.

[0] - [https://i-technet.sec.s-msft.com/dynimg/IC354367.jpg](https://i-technet.sec.s-msft.com/dynimg/IC354367.jpg)

<comment><USER13> Oh sure, but those are still 3 different menu styles for Windows. I have never tried the ribbon thing but I think I wouldn't like it as a casual libreoffice user.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I try those new shiny DEs from time to time and always come back to xmonad.

In particular, I need to be able to have desktop #x on display #y and desktop #z on display #t, i.e. have virtual desktops independent from the multiple displays setup - a feature that other DEs / WMs seem to never provide.

This is very practical to, say, keep your emails always visible on one display while switching between other tasks on other displays.

Sure, sometimes a release of xmonad will make the chrome dropdown menus stop working [1], or some other weirdness, but all in all, it's quite stable and I can focus on creating a workflow that really suits me and that I never need learn again.

[1] [https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/42](https://github.com/xmonad/xmonad/issues/42)

</comment><comment><USER15> I'll just be over here on i3wm not using a mouse...

</comment><comment><USER16> Also if your are trying to do vr dev you really should use unity on windows 10.

Edit: whoops didnt read closely enough

<comment><USER17> I believe this is about the Unity Desktop Environment, not the Unity Game Engine.</comment></comment>


What football will look like in the future - <AUTHOR> https://www.sbnation.com/a/17776-football <comment><USER2> I passed over this thinking, "I don't really care what football will look like in the future." But, it is among the best scifi short stories (or episodic novels, I dunno how long it'll be) I've read in years. This is one of those things where I think, "Yeah, the internet should be more like this all the time."</comment>


Achieving remote code execution on a Chinese IP camera - <AUTHOR> https://www.mauritsvanaltvorst.com/rce-chinese-ip-cameras/ <comment><AUTHOR> I'm the author of this article, feel free to ask me any questions you might have.</comment>


June was a great month - <AUTHOR> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3556-june-was-a-great-month

<comment><USER2> Yes June was a great month. Edward Snowden tore corrupt Authority a new orifice which is always good news for World Civilization. I opened the link of your title: 'June was a great month' and discovered it was something embarrassingly self-centered. You should be ashamed of yourself.</comment>


Why is it so hard to make a website for the government? - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/13/magazine/why-is-it-so-hard-to-make-a-website-for-the-government.html?_r=0 <comment><USER2> Link failed for me. This works:

[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/13/magazine/desig...](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/13/magazine/design- issue-code-for-america.html)</comment>


Startups: Build Websites, Not Apps - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/gabor/startups-build-websites-not-apps-5b8232c727d8 <comment><USER2> As an app developer, I feel it's basically impossible to succeed on the App Store without a high production value app that Apple will feature. For most app developers, it's hard to switch to web development - the skill set is too different. So I'm kind of stuck with apps for now.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's also a lot less annoying to ask a user to visit a website rather instead of downloading an app.</comment>


Girls Who Code pokes fun at brogrammers to encourage women to get into coding - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnet.com/au/news/brogrammers-this-girls-who-code-video-is-for-you/ <comment><USER2> "he brogrammer -- the collar-popping, protein shake-slurping, Nerf gun- wielding dude cranking out code -- is the subject of a new video, out Thursday, from education nonprofit Girls Who Code and CollegeHumor."

Isn't this the type of stereotyping and generalizing we are trying to stop?

<comment><USER3> Only if it's about people of colour or women.</comment></comment>


Yale researchers 'teleport' a quantum gate - <AUTHOR> https://news.yale.edu/2018/09/05/yale-researchers-teleport-quantum-gate <comment><USER2> The article mentions that quantum computers are "an order of magnitude" faster than traditional computing. My understanding is that at the moment, this is incorrect: (noise-free) quantum computers are better at certain specific tasks, and otherwise, are no better than classical computers.

<comment><USER3> The "order of magnitude" statement is completely false.

If we're talking about algorithmic complexity: for some algorithms quantum computers won't be any better than classical ones; for others, the improvement will be exponential, not multiplicative, say from O(eⁿ) to O(n).

If we're talking about actual performance, we have no idea, because there is no general purpose quantum computer yet.

So the mention of "orders of magnitude" belies a complete ignorance of the topic.

<comment><USER4> Just FYI you're misusing "belies". You use it like "reveals" but it's meaning is closer to the opposite, more like "misrepresents" or "contradicts".

<comment><USER3> Ooops. Thanks

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> can anyone ELI5 what's the impact of this research?

<comment><AUTHOR> Quantum computers are difficult to scale because of noise. Applying a quantum gate to a qubit using teleportation is a protocol for performing fault- tolerant quantum computation.

<comment><USER6> I don't know what 5 year olds you hang out with, but I think this would have gone over their heads ;)

<comment><USER7> On Hacker News everybody's five year old kids:

1\. Configure and run their own Minecraft Server

2\. Are fully proficient with the linux commandline

3\. Are skilled in basic safe cracking techniques such as auto-dialling, weak point drilling, scoping and the use of brute force methodologies including the use of thermal lances (having acquired relevant Health and Safety accreditations).

<comment><USER8> And besides that they are on their third startup, have a blog, will debate the finer points of faking it until you make it with gusto, and are proficient in LISP, Rust and Elixir.

<comment><USER9> And will explain monads to their parents

<comment><USER10> Which is why we got them in the first place! Failure to contain I mean.

<comment><USER11> So did any of these five year olds notice this sentence?

> Using a theoretical protocol developed in the 1990s, Yale researchers > experimentally demonstrated a quantum operation, or "gate," without relying > on any direct interaction.

They're basically saying it's magic. But no 5 year olds I hang out with are any good at magic yet.

<comment><AUTHOR> Quantum teleportation is the transmission of a quantum state using an entangled pair and two classical bits. No magic needed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'm looking forward to the first quantum computer with hundreds or thousands of qubits, to see how the Many Worlds deniers explain its existence.

<comment> pure-awesome (Disclaimer: I am not a physicist)

Probably they would just explain it with the normal Copenhagen interpretation?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation)

In terms of quantum theory, the behaviour of a quantum computer is not fundamentally any different to the behaviour of any small scale particle or collection of particles.

Even buckyballs have been shown to self-interfere in a double-slit experiment, and that doesn't _prove_ multi-worlds over the Copenhagen interpretation.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20120331115055/http://www.quantu...](https://web.archive.org/web/20120331115055/http://www.quantum.at/research/molecule- interferometry-foundations/wave-particle-duality-of-c60.html)

There might be other philosophical reasons to believe in many-worlds, and I am partial to it myself, but experimental observation of this form would not to my understanding contribute to that argument.

<comment><USER12> They've gotten it a little bit bigger than a buckyball

[https://arxiv.org/abs/1310.8343](https://arxiv.org/abs/1310.8343)

Also what's cool is that these things are visible under an electron microscope (so are buckyballs iirc).</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Why does the c ++ community dont have a famous ORM like Java Hibernate? - <AUTHOR> I'm new to C ++, and one of the first things I did when dealing with a project was to look for an good ORM (something that in the languages I worked, for example in Ruby if you have Active Record, in PHP if you have Doctrine, In Python if you have SQLAlchemy and in Java the famous Hibernate).
I find it strange that in the C ++ community there are no major Open Source initiatives like in other languages, because although scripting languages are very popular due to their use on the WEB, sites like Tiobe places c and c ++ in second and third places respectively.
My searches for an ORM on Github and over the internet were frustrating. Could you help me with this? <comment><USER2> At my company we use ODB [0] with SQLite in a VERY large commercial application. We've been using it for a couple of years now. Rock-solid.

ps.: ODB is GPL v2. We have a commercial license to avoid it. ODB also offers a "free" commercial license that imposes limits on the size of your database.

[0] [http://www.codesynthesis.com/products/odb/](http://www.codesynthesis.com/products/odb/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Tank you so much!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Accessing databases in general and accessing them with an ORM in particular is far more common in Java and C# (due to "enterprise" applications) and in Python, Ruby, PHP (due to popular frameworks for database-backed web applications) than in C or C++.

When a database is used in C++, the application is typically not very portable and/or small and simple and/or performance critical and/or not object-centric, and an ORM would offer little or no benefit over using a more direct API.

</comment><comment><USER4> QT has an ORM</comment>


Dave McClure Says Web Startups Must Tap Consumers' Reptilian Psyche - <AUTHOR> http://www.xconomy.com/national/2010/07/09/sex-power-and-money-dave-mcclure-tells-web-startups-to-tap-into-consumers-reptilian-psyche/

<comment><USER2> Or you could just make something awesome and make it for yourself as the customer and stop needing tricks and strategies to keep people involved and "converting"

I see game mechanics, landing page optimization, and the like as compensations for not being remarkable in the first place.

Look at Threadless or Foodzie or even 37signals as models (certainly there are more) make your product remarkable first and then worry about refining metrics and conversions</comment>


The History of Ice Cream - <AUTHOR> https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2018/06/30/how-ice-cream-made-america/leqtRFPQZxn8IrCXww1W2O/story.html <comment><USER2> > _Americans are no longer the world's top consumers of ice cream — that crown > goes to China_

That is insane to me. I lived in Beijing 20 years ago, and Chinese food had shockingly few sweet things ("dessert" was not a concept at all) and no dairy whatsoever. A few stores had Snickers bars by the counters next to sweetened bean paste, that was pretty much it.

The fact that the country now consumes more sweetened dairy than the US is... completely unimaginable to me.

Anyone from China here who can describe what happened and how it was adopted?

<comment><USER3> I'm in the middle of reading _Factfulness: Ten Reasons We 're Wrong About the World_ by Hans Rosling, Ola Rosling, and Anna Rosling Rönnlund.

I think it provides a great model of what is happening in the world, especially in this case. Chinese people have more money per capita, and so now they can spend it on sweets and meat.

McDonald's being seen as an upscale brand probably also helps -- even cartoons (like Quanzhi Gaoshou, which is about eSports) have blatant product placement for McDonald's ice cream.

<comment><USER4> … more money per capita, and so now they can spend it on sweets

I thought sugar is a poor-man's food.

<comment><USER3> Read the book! It talks about how sugar is a sign of wealth in developing countries, and a sign of poverty in developed ones.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Some of you may have made liquid nitrogen ice cream... which is delicious. Even better is liquid argon ice cream, as the argon is heavier than air and gives the ice cream a frothy texture.

<comment><USER6> That's got to be some very expensive ice cream! Argon is not cheap

<comment><USER5> Yeah we ordinarily would have used nitrogen but we had access to some leftover argon that would have boiled away over the weekend anyways

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> if you happen to be in vienna, austria, the ice cream festival is this week- end at the augarten

</comment><comment><USER8> I feel i'm on Greendale

</comment><comment><USER9> Do I have to Facebook read this? Oh boy

<comment><USER10> It's hard to have any sympathy for news organizations when they insist on this nonsense. How can any of these orgs report objectively about Facebook or privacy issues when they themselves are the biggest offenders by forcing this crap on people?

I am a paid subscriber to a select few news orgs, but even those try my patience. Very hard to care about the news business when they engage in this.

<comment><USER11> I finally paid for a subscription to New Yorker. Man, the entire experience was frustrating as hell.

Old school media outlets are just so clueless about digital models

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Some myths are best perpetuated, e.g. 'nobody will ever need any more than 640K' (paraphrased) and in the UK there is a pretty good myth about Margaret Thatcher 'inventing' soft scoop ice cream. In some circles it has been repeated often enough to be as good as true.

One story that I wish was a myth is how ice cream used to be made from pig fat in the UK. Yes, pig fat, not dairy fat.

If you lived in Gloucester then you could see how this worked. The Walls Ice Cream factory was next to the Walls bacon factory. And they didn't have many deliveries from distinctive Milk Marketing Board lorries entering the factory gates. For vegetarians this 'secret' was not obvious, food labelling wasn't entirely required during the 1970's so one was assuming rather than knowing that the product was dairy based.

This did change and Wall's Ice Cream moved on from pig fat to palm oil. This was not to end the 'Aushwitz for pigs' aspect of the Gloucester factory, it was just economic realities. The pig fat could be sold at a premium on the global marketplace for such things and substituted with the cheaper, rainforest-destroying palm oil shipped in from the other side of the world.

Put together, I do wonder if any Wall's employees ever thought about the realities of what they were doing sending their vans around housing estates.

So first of all the product - cheapest sugar mixed with pig fat and padded out with air. Not exactly the ice cream product that people imagine it to be, not exactly great for diabetes and clogging arteries, not that it matters with kids to get them forming such life habits. They don't need vitamins when there are perfectly good preservatives to give them ADHD.

Then the ice cream vans themselves. Belching out fumes of lead at child height. Plus the noise pollution, spoiling the tranquillity of a children's play area with the throb of some poxy four cylinder engine not to mention the 'music' played over the PA system. Not all the drivers had a healthy interest in young children, but in those days we didn't have the words we have today for describing or reporting such characters. The mobile chicane created by the ice cream van could also bring death to the roads in the pre-speed bump era when housing estate speed limits were 60 mph and nobody had seat belts.

There is also the pester-power and FOMO aspects. What a heartless killjoy a parent would be if they didn't give their hard earned money over to their kids to fritter away on some pig fat whilst getting gassed with neuro-toxins at the ice cream van, to spoil their appetite for dinner?

At the time Walls had an advertising slogan that was a variation on the slogan the condom manufacturer's used. So, for ice cream you had 'Stop Me and Buy One!' and for condoms you had 'Buy Me and Stop One!'.

Despite all of the above people have extremely fond memories of ice cream vans.

<comment><USER13> I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're saying, because it seems like a rant bordering on conspiracy theory (e.g. preservatives causing ADHD, which I'm sure isn't based on any real science; or insinuating that ice cream van drivers are pedophiles). My take is that you simply don't like ice cream, and don't like other people enjoying it.

<comment><USER14> Not OP. Couple of supporting points.

The "E numbers" that supposedly caused hyperactivity, mainly orange colour IIRC, were banned in the EU I think.

Ice-cream vans were always badly maintained (repurposed older vans I think), and in the 80s used leaded fuel.

Ice-cream got worse in the last decade or so as now stabilising gums and foams have been perfected somewhat and so ice-cream is mainly air (you can scoop it from the freezer). Lollies too have gums in them that I'm sure they didn't used to.</comment></comment></comment>


Google will kill Microsoft Silverlight in Chrome by disabling NPAPI plug-in - <AUTHOR> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2383624/google-will-kill-microsoft-silverlight-in-chrome-by-disabling-npapi-plug-in

<comment><USER2> Silverlight's end of life has been announced. Microsoft is even phasing it out of its own product offerings. The example I am thinking of is their data visualization tool, Power View, which is taking the helm as their dashboard design platform. It was originally developed with Silverlight, but pretty much all current development is in the HTML5 fork in PowerBI.

On the Netflix front, Chrome has had HTML5 streaming since late last summer.

I think the bigger news is killing NPAPI, not specifically Silverlight.

Edit: Typoes.

</comment><comment><USER3> I haven't gone reading the article in detail.

What happens to the streaming providers like Netflix etc that use Silverlight ? Would they stop working too ?

<comment><USER4> Netflix is already moving to HTML5 video [http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/05/yosemite-finally-allows- netfli...](http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/05/yosemite-finally-allows-netflix- subscribers-to-wave-goodbye-to-silverlight/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> And everyone is silent... But if it was Microsoft trying to use it's weight to kill off some net technology it doesn't like/own.

<comment><USER4> I think we can all agree killing off NPAPI is the right choice. As google said it's ancient tech and it's holding them back. Netflix is the only thing I ever use that uses NPAPI, via Silverlight, and even they are moving to HTML5 video [0]. Also MS already killed off Silverlight [1] and other plugins. This is where we WANT to go with the web, a plugin-free world is goal...

Let's not try to make this a "If MS did this everyone would be up in arms" issue because that's not what it is. The article is super click-baity as Google isn't saying "Fuck You" to MS but to ALL of NPAPI which has outlived it's usefulness IMHO.

[0] [http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/05/yosemite-finally-allows- netfli...](http://9to5mac.com/2014/06/05/yosemite-finally-allows-netflix- subscribers-to-wave-goodbye-to-silverlight/)

[1] [http://www.itworld.com/article/2736986/enterprise- software/m...](http://www.itworld.com/article/2736986/enterprise- software/microsoft-kills-silverlight-and-other-plug-ins-in-windows-8.html)

<comment><USER3> I think Amazon Instant Video is also on Silverlight ?

<comment><USER4> Yes, I think they originally used Flash then switched to Silverlight. Not sure if they still support the flash player though. That said I'd bet they will be moving to HTML5 soon.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Oh thank goodness. We should be celebrating the end of NPAPI</comment>


Ask PG: Why is everybody hellbanned? - <AUTHOR> If you look at the "New" page with showdead set positive, you'll see that almost every post is dead, including some self posts made by high-karma users. Is this a bug or is there any specific reason this is happening?<p>EDIT: The problem appears to be fixed (though not retroactively). <comment><USER2> I submitted a link a few days ago about a possible IE 0-day in the wild and it immediately became "[dead]". It's the first submission I've ever made and I haven't, AFAIK, broken any HN rules since I finally created my account (after years of lurking).

On a related note, you will be hellbanned if you create an HN account over Tor (even if you "don't do anything wrong").

Considering the recent NSA revelations, I think that's pretty unfair but, hey, what can ya do...

<comment><USER3> It's either that or implementing captchas. And I think pg is not very motivated to do the latter.

edit: top of my head reply/speculation so I don't claim any factual accuracy.

<comment><USER4> Blocking Tor won't stop any spam.

Real spammers have tens of thousands of unique addresses to use; why would they use the 300 or so exit nodes that Tor has available?

<comment><USER5> Blocking Tor stops plenty of spam. Boards.ie blocked Tor and watched spam fall off a cliff.

<comment><USER6> As someone who runs some large boards, blocking Tor stops trolls. Does very little for spam.

For spam, [http://www.stopforumspam.com](http://www.stopforumspam.com) is pretty awesome. But most likely because the few people who have written scripts for vBulletin or phpBB attempt to hit all of the vBulletin and phpBB sites... so it works pretty well for that group. May have zero effect on something like HN where an entirely different approach may be used (cheap labour?).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Posting out of turn? That's a banning.

Posting from the wrong browser window? That's a banning.

Staring at my post? That's a banning.

Post about banning? Oh, better believe that's a banning.

<comment><USER8> I'd upvote you, but I'm pretty sure that's a banning.

<comment><USER9> The algorithms have no parameters for mercy.

<comment><USER10> They cannot be bargained with. They cannot be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, remorse or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are banned.

<comment><USER11> Several years into the future..

PG: Unban me, HN.

HN: I'm sorry, PG. I'm afraid I can't do that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> An example:

 _First alpha release of Python 3.4 is out (python.org)_

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6155423](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6155423)

It probably linked to [1], but all we can tell is that it was something at python.org. The post was by plessthanpt05, an HN user for about two years with 838 karma. All of his/her posts from the past year or so are dead (about 60 of them). They don't appear to be a bot.

Python 3.4.0a1 isn't something that would interest everyone on HN, but it certainly doesn't seem like the kind of thing that should have been killed.

[1] [http://python.org/download/releases/3.4.0/](http://python.org/download/releases/3.4.0/)

Edit: more details on plessthanpt05

<comment><USER13> Well, that user also posted over 60 links in the last year, while never receiving a single upvote or comment. I'm not sure why a flesh-and-blood user would still be posting after that.

<comment><USER14> I posted here for a year after getting hellbanned before realizing. It happens.

<comment><USER15> On another account, I checked regularly for possible hellban status.

Lo and behold, I caught it about 3 days in. Of course, I didn't even use HN for the first of those 2 days.

This day, I spend more of my time on subreddits that share HN's enthusiasm and knowledge without the subterfuge of hellbans.

<comment><USER16> Could you elaborate on which subs these are?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Most of those accounts are a sockpuppet ring. They tend to all post at once, which means when they do the new page is mostly dead if you have showdead turned on.

I explained this in a comment about a week or two ago, the last time someone freaked about about banned accounts.

Next time someone wants to do that, would you please email us, as it says in the guidelines? That would have saved a lot of people a lot of time.

</comment><comment><USER18> As a general request, I would welcome more transparency (about how things are handled and what we can and cannot expect from HN).

EDIT: I also believe that a lack of it will ultimately lead to HN being replaced by something else.

<comment><USER19> The whole business of banning from sites in general bothers me. More so with huge sites like FB and Twitter.

These sites like to promote themselves as communities, and to be banned from a community with no explanation, due process or right to appeal is awful. It can literally alter, even ruin lives. This, AFAIK, doesn't happen in the "real" world". I don't see why virtual communities get some sort of impunity.

Personally I think there should be an independent arbitration service which sites should sign up to. IMHO, that would protect both sides. Too often one is at the whim of an individual moderator or admin, rather than a rational considered process. Equally, banned people go off an tell every one they can they got badly treated. Fair arbitration would open it up.

I had one instance. Something want working. I posted in the forum to get help. They blamed my ISP. I contacted the ISP, they blamed the site. I tried to get the two to talk. I got banned. A year later I tried to get re-instated. The person I emailed replied and told me that I wouldn't be, but wouldn't explain why I was initially banned or why I would remain banned. I had now where to go but to simply accept this. Very, very frustrating.

Sorry to say this, and its NOT a reflection of HN or its moderation, but too often I worry that really we are dealing with people who get off on their little domain of power.

<comment><USER20> > These sites like to promote themselves as communities, and to be banned from > a community with no explanation, due process or right to appeal is awful. It > can literally alter, even ruin lives. This, AFAIK, doesn't happen in the > "real" world". I don't see why virtual communities get some sort of > impunity.

Sure it happens in the real world. A real world community like an HOA. It is a private property. A private property can really make any sort of rules (apart from a few choice rules that don't flag banning by the super community: the government) and roll with it.

I think an independent open source community would do better. You sign up for it, make whatever damn fool rule you want for your own tribe. Roll with it.

<comment><USER19> Could you never resolve a HOA issue in a court, independently?

<comment><USER20> I don't have a house; however my brief experience from what I have seen is that the HOA is overwhelmingly favored. Unlike an Internet forum, not reading the TOS doesn't actually work as an excuse. Even for tearjerker issues involving veterans and flags.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I'm considered "new" though I've lurked for a while before registering. There are some obvious cases (spamming, trolling, link-bait, off-topic, URL- shortening etc...) that leave little doubt to the reason, but it seems to be fairly well known that in fact no one really knows why some users get hellbanned while others, behaving far more egregiously (precluding above reasons), don't.

I found this search enlightening though: [https://www.google.com/search?q=hellbanned+hacker+news](https://www.google.com/search?q=hellbanned+hacker+news)

<comment><USER9> There's also a feature that slows down the site for a user under certain conditions.

It's surreptitious crap like this that makes HN such a pain to use for a lot of us.

<comment><USER22> For how long have you run a popular discussion web site, and what measures do you take to reduce the increased snarkiness in extended exchanges? I'd love to hear how you solve the problem.

<comment><USER9> Have a set of clear rules (and not vague non-language like "don't write non- hacker, off-topic stuff") - AND ENFORCE IT, visibly. Unenforced rules aren't rules. Unclarified rules aren't rules.

Whenever someone is penalized, point them to the specific rules they violated. And keep in mind that people make mistakes every now and then. Show largesse. This isn't a production line where flawed products are tossed out at the blink of an eye.

Last, don't view everything as a "problem" to be "solved". We're talking about human beings, not Turing-complete automatons. That's a big part of the problem with how HN is run. You will never "solve" this the way you would a bug.

You need a human element to address something human. Treating everyone like a spam bot only works for spam bots, and has the side effect of pissing off the human false positives.

<comment><USER23> I disagree with the idea of having a strict code of rules. Coming up with rules and sticking to them to the letter doesn't do anything to encourage meaningful discussion.

All you end up are the trolls who do their best to toe the line while provoking other people to step over it, and the sort of people who think a conversation where everybody follows the rules yet no-one says anything of substance is preferable to a lively discussion. You end up driving away the people who just want to talk about things they enjoy or are interested in, and don't particularly care about adhering to your rigid social system.

People are people, not automatons, and the system of curating discussions should reflect that. If someone is acting in bad faith, waiting for them to violate the letter of a rule that's been written down before you do anything about it just allows that person to drive away more of your actual desired userbase.

<comment><USER9> Vague wording in rules is like legislation; they just end up as excuses for doing bad things, instead of ensuring good behaviour. "Toeing the line", if you will.

We constantly see this in trying to figure out what kind of stories are supposed to be submitted to HN.

Does it really make sense for a person like Maciej Ceglowski to be permabanned from HN? [https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/111332316458135553](https://twitter.com/pinboard/status/111332316458135553). I think it's a shame, partly because I think he's a smart guy with a fresh view on things, but also because I don't think the reasons for banning him are very compelling.

You can't have poorly-defined rules and opaque moderation at the same time. You'll see why, when you incur the wrath of one of pg's moderation scripts for no apparent reason.

\---

EDIT: As an aside, to give an idea of what a fucking pain being (inexplicably) hellbanned is, picture all your Hacker News bookmarks no longer working, because you've been banned from the entire site.

<comment><USER23> Vague wording in legislation ends up as an excuse for doing bad things because when you get enough people together to call them a government, you're bound to end up with a few bad eggs. Online discussion sites are small enough that that's not necessarily the case - it's quite feasible to maintain a core group of people who don't abuse that power.

Especially since, unlike in government, that core group of people is beholden only to whoever is operating the site, and not to a popularity contest that sees them being replaced with an entirely new group every so often. This is also why you absolutely can have poorly-defined rules and opaque moderation - the operator of the discussion site shapes what they want it to look like, and if too many people disagree with that vision then another discussion site springs up tailored to what those people want. And if the original operator is too arbitrary or capricious in their moderation, their own site dies or becomes an insular hugbox or something like that.

\--

Ultimately, when people say they want stricter interpretation of the rules and more accountability on an online discussion board, what they really mean is "I disagree with some of these decisions and I want them to make the decision that I would make next time". Which is fine, but having seen a lot of the proposed alternatives in action I can't really see them as being an improvement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> The mods seem to use it as their version of voting. I see perfectly fine stories banned all the time, consistently over a period of months. The same with users. Lots of times I'll look in a thread and see lots of dead people who don't know they are dead, posting interesting and useful stuff.

I've run forums and image posting sites before, the trouble isn't finding moderators from the community who will work for free. The trouble is finding ones that won't abuse their power.

</comment><comment><USER25> It's gotta be a bug. Either that, or pg cracked under the strain of running the YC empire and implicitly announced, "You're all dead to me."

<comment><USER21> Interesting theory! We should write a bot to run a Bayesian-Freudian analysis of his Twitter stream for hints ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I've been hellbanned at _least_ a few times while trying to show HN the OSS project I've been working on :(

In /r/programming on reddit, it was shadowbanned as soon as it was posted. It's pretty frustrating and it's making me want to contribute to HN less.

[https://chat.echoplex.us](https://chat.echoplex.us) [https://github.com/qq99/echoplexus](https://github.com/qq99/echoplexus)

</comment><comment><USER27> There now seems to be a subset of Internet denizens who are invested in a culture of pattern-matching and parroting snarky self-righteous knee-jerk reactions. Even more disturbing, is that many of these people have been indoctrinated to believe that this is "clever" somehow, even though it involves nothing more sophisticated than ELIZA.

Going around thinking you're superior because you're connected is just as shallow online as it was for country clubs.

Please actually process ideas if you comment on HN.

</comment><comment><USER28> I just took a look at the new page, and it doesn't look any different to normal.

The users of those posts aren't necessarily hellbanned - the posts are though. If enough people flag a new story I think it'll automatically be marked dead.

Usually it's just for spammy crap, or stories that aren't very interesting.

<comment><USER29> We're actually discussing the flagging situation here, in a _thread that was flagged_ :

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6155513](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6155513)

I don't think many stories get flagged just on the new page. It's usually domains that are flagged, like buzzfeed.com, huffingtonpost.com, or gawker.com. It sounds like maybe there was a bug in the server today.

<comment><USER28> _Tons_ of stories get flagged on the new page. They're usually spam.

In this case, it's part of a policy not to discuss meta-hn issues on hn. If you start a post asking why you were hell banned, or flagging/downvoting, it'll usually get flagged and/or removed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Interesting blog post on it here [http://toway1234.tumblr.com/post/16021243707/hacker-news- hel...](http://toway1234.tumblr.com/post/16021243707/hacker-news-hellbanning- is-unacceptable)

</comment><comment><USER31> Holy cow! Just saw it. It looks like a minefield. I _speculate_ it's probably a bug or something because I've never seen so many dead links together. Either that, or today being a Sunday, has got everyone trying to promote their stuff.

</comment><comment><USER32> Emailing email@example.com is the way to get these questions answered.

<comment><USER18> An open discussion has the benefit of generating valuable feedback for PG.

<comment><USER32> I may or may not agree with you, but my comment only considers HN rules and that there is a strong precedent for these HN-policy meta-discussions to be killed by mods.

<comment><USER18> > there is a strong precedent for these HN-policy meta-discussions to be > killed by mods.

If this is true, it would be a pretty sad state of affairs.

If such a discussion comes up, it's because of a lack of transparency.

<comment><USER22> It is true, and for me it is not a sad state of affairs. I've seen more sites killed by excessive meta-discussion than almost anything else. More, true "transparency" frequently just leads to more meta-discussion about the minutiae, and constant bickering about nuances of interpretation.

Personally, I think PG is striking a good balance. If you disagree you are, of course, free to go elsewhere and/or start an alternative community, and solve all the problenms in your own way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> The only pattern I've noticed is that many of the hellbanned users only ever link to only a single domain -- probably their own.

<comment><USER34> This is also something I never understood. Who cares if I submit tons of (non- duplicate) links from my own domain. If the community doesn't like them, they won't get upvoted and will disappear. Same goes for the opposite.

<comment><USER33> I totally agree . I've found some things I would have liked to upvote in such banned users submissions a quite a few times.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Some of the dead posts look to be duplicates of live ones.

</comment><comment><USER36> If I make a comment, any comment, and it gets two or more downvotes, I assume the account has been hellbanned and abandon the account.

Why? Because it's happened to me many times in the past.

I create new accounts often. The thought police cannot stop me.

<comment><USER37> That's ridiculous.

I often get down-voted for some of my more bone-headed, humorously off-topic or bad faith posts. Well, not _very_ often (generally I'm a good soul) but you get the point.

If you're not making this up and this has happened to you many times then maybe you should consider the possibility that your posts are not adding anything of benefit to the site. I created one account initially and went from there. I have never even felt the need to create an alter-ego, and evil twin or a "posting-while-drunk" safe account.

Hope that helps. Think twice or thrice before you hit the "reply" button.

<comment><USER38> >you should consider the possibility that your posts are not adding anything of benefit to the site.

...such as when your thoughtful posts don't show up because you got hellbanned for a single post the mods/algorithm didn't like. And when considering the odds, it makes sense to create new accounts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Am I banned?

<comment> peter-fogg Nope. Am I?

<comment><USER40> Nope.

<comment><USER41> Am I banned?

<comment><USER26> Don't think so, am I?

<comment><USER41> Nope

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Anyone notice how if you reverse the letters PG and prepend it with K for karma, you get the KGP?

<comment><USER43> That's true! Also, if you reverse your username, add a graphic "1" to the first letter and add 2 and 3 to the next two (don't forget to wraparound!), you get "duck". You can't fool me, mallard!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: If you plan success, why ever raise equity instead of debt? - <AUTHOR> If you believe in your company why would it ever make sense to raise equity instead of debt? <comment><USER2> Raising equity under terms typical in Silicon Valley allows an alignment of interests between employees of the company (founders in a C Corp are employees) and the investors. Because the primary returns for both sides come from increased equity value and not from cash flow. This makes cash flow available for growth and growth increases the value of equity. Relative to debt both interest and principle repayment can be thought of as indefinitely deferred.

Loans drag on cash flow and payments made are at present value not discounted to the future. Those payments are not available for growth and there is always less cash on hand. As they say "cash is king."

There are many many businesses where loans are better. And there are many ordinary investors which prefer ongoing income over all or nothing bets on equity.

Loans are income oriented and make more sense for companies with income oriented owners. Equity is capital oriented and can better provide compound returns. Of course there are bad (for growth) equity terms which extract cash like a loan and hold the company as collateral. The private equity investment model often works that way.

</comment><comment><USER3> To be able to lend money, the lender has to believe in your company, too.

If no potential lenders do, you can't borrow money. If those that believe in you don't believe you that well, they'll ask for high interest rates that make lending unattractive.

Finally, your belief in your company may not be absolute.

</comment><comment><USER4> Assuming you can raise debt, the other reason would be that if you fail to make debt payments then you potentially lose your company. Shit does happen, and it doesn't take a once in a lifetime virus to wreck your plans.

</comment><comment><USER5> Flip it around, would you lend money to a startup? What interest rate would you want? Would you prefer to lend money to someone with collateral?

</comment><comment><USER6> I suppose one reason is that the debt can sometimes come with a personal guarantee attached.</comment>


Reverse-Engineering Google Nest Devices - <AUTHOR> http://experimental-platform.tumblr.com/post/137835649425/reverse-engineering-google-nest-devices <comment><USER2> Then there are the Nest cameras, reporting everything you do to Google.

 _" The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plate commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. but at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You have to live - did live, from habit that became instinct - in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized._" \- "1984", Orwell

 _" Video and audio signals and data: When you enable the recording or streaming features of your Nest Cam, we may record and process video and/or audio recordings from the device, subject to your configuration and settings. This may include capturing and emailing to you portions of this data as part of a notification or analyzing the data to identify motion or other events. We may process information from your Nest Cam so that we can send you alerts when something happens. In addition, if you have the recording features enabled, we will capture, process and retain video and audio data recordings from your device for the duration of your recording subscription period (for example, 10 or 30 days) and you will be able to access those recordings using the Services during that time."_ \- NestCam privacy policy, Google

<comment><USER3> I'm curious. How else would you implement a cloud-based recording service with image recognition? (EDIT: full disclosure, I work for Nest through the Dropcam acquisition)

<comment><USER4> > _a cloud-based recording service_

Well, there's the rub, right? I think what those of us who consider themselves self-hosting partisans would say is that we'd prefer a device that allows us to send its signals to a server we own and operate. The recording and image recognition would then occur on that server.

In my ideal world, Dropcam (and later Nest) would have provided software I could install on my own server (located either on my home network or at a data center). I know that sounds like a far-fetched dream, but that's the ideal I want, and I will pay twice as much or more for devices that recognize the emergent demand for self-management.

I have a Dropcam, and I enjoyed using it for a while. But I stopped using my Dropcam about a year ago because I grew increasingly unhappy with the idea of its video stream being sent to an untrusted third-party (Dropcam and later Google/Nest). Since there is no "self-service" mode for Dropcams, it has become a decoration in my house.

<comment><USER5> > _we 'd prefer a device that allows us to send its signals to a server we own > and operate_

There are lots of cameras that do that. You can even mix and match software and hardware making for real options, not just some vertically integrated service.

So is the rub that you think that such a device just shouldn't exist for anyone?

<comment><USER4> > _[Do] you think that such a device just shouldn 't exist for anyone?_

No. I apologize if that's what you took from my statement.

I hope the future sees technological evolution that makes it easier for common people to self-manage their devices. Presently, doing so requires more time and thought investment than traditional "cloud" options. For example, it took me a bit of time to set up a self-hosted NVR with a network of IP cameras. But in an ideal world, Dropcam-like devices would exist and provide an option during setup: "Do you want to use our video hosting service or run your own? If you choose your own, you'll need to install some software on a computer..." The Dropcam software is really well designed, it's just a shame I can't run it on my own server.

Like I said, it's idealistic wishful thinking. But if people want to use services hosted by third-parties, I don't want to take that option away.

<comment><USER6> Definitely wishful thinking. Anything consumer oriented will be forced to the cloud and use proprietary protocols.

There simply aren't enough of us who want control of our own data to make a difference.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> _> with email and plaintext password_

It's totally reasonable to transmit a password in clear if it's being transmitted inside of an SSL tunnel (which it is in this case).

Most if not all techniques that would allow for not transmitting the password in a server-decryptable fashion would require the password or a password equivalent to be stored in clear on the server.

In case of a breach, that would be devastating.

<comment><USER8> > Most if not all techniques that would allow for not transmitting the > password in a server-decryptable fashion would require the password or a > password equivalent to be stored in clear on the server.

That's not true at all! SRP[1][2] allows the server to not have the plaintext password ever, even during account creation.

Kerberos' KDC doesn't know the plain-text password either[3].

Even HTTP Digest didn't require the password to be stored in plain text [4]. [Edit: though if you leaked HA1 that effectively becomes the credential]

Moreover, client TLS certificates would also fit the bill, as the client key is never transmitted.

Don't spread FUD if you aren't sure. If you don't know, don't say anything or say you don't know.

[1] [http://srp.stanford.edu/](http://srp.stanford.edu/) [2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protoco...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protocol) [3] [http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/15849/does- the-k...](http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/15849/does-the-kerberos- kdc-know-the-users-plaintext-passwords) [4] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digest_access_authentication](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digest_access_authentication)

<comment><USER9> If password X is hashed to Y, and you store Y that seems ok.

But if you directly check if the client transmits Y then Y is just the new password.

At a minimum you should be hashing whatever the client sends and comparing that with the hashed password.

PS: Not that most developers should do this by hand.

<comment><USER8> I don't understand your point. Even if the client sends HASH(password), that effectively becomes the credential. That's where HTTP Digest is less successful (as was pointed out by a sibling and I went D'oh for not remembering).

> At a minimum you should be hashing whatever the client sends and storing > that.

That's a very narrow view of how to authenticate. SRP and client certs certainly don't work that way.

<comment><USER10> Salt.

In SSL/TLS, the data is transmitted using a one-time pad of some kind, so that intercepting a transmitted token gives you nothing that you can use to authenticate in a future connection (but you might be able to hijack the connection you intercepted, if you spoofed the server into thinking you are the intended client)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_secrecy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_secrecy)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > _you cannot operate the camera or switch your thermostat's settings without > Internet connection_

This should say *remotely. I know it does in the paragraph before, but sometimes people only read bullets.

So is the complaint here I can't find out what data the device is sending back to Nest in whole? And contrary to the post, their Public API is pretty extensive.

Seems to me this is just another person with a concern around no local control/data retrieval. There is at least one other thermostat that has that.

<comment><USER12> Well, you can't operate the camera without an internet connection. The only thing you can do is unplug it & plug it back in.

It's really irritating to use a Nest thermostat with no connection, either, since you can't set or control your heating/cooling schedule.

<comment><USER11> The camera is one thing... but from their perspective I could understand why they don't want it working locally.

As far as the thermostat, people don't edit their schedules that often really. Plus at least with the v3 you can do it on the thermostat. I don't know about the others, I assume not based on the comments.

Plus for others (Honeywell for instance) you can do it locally as well as remotely.

That being said, scheduling interfaces are SUPER hard to build where people understand them and it does what they want.

<comment><USER13> _Plus at least with the v3 you can do it on the thermostat. I don 't know about the others, I assume not based on the comments._

I don't know if it's always been this way, but my V1 Nest let's me fiddle with the schedule on the thermostat. Kind of a pain with a rotating ring as your input device, but it can be done. (Assuming a firmware update hasn't broken this feature; haven't used the feature in well over a year.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> > […] creating a walled garden around the user's own data is a shady move. All > of my private data should be easibly accessible to me though open API > without any gimmicks. In its press release Nest promised introducing a > public API[,] however [it] seems limited in many ways compared to the > internal API used by Nest mobile app - and to add insult to injury - many of > its features require an active Nest subscription.

This is exactly one reason why using "Cloud" services for long-living things, like Hardware, is a great risk.

When Google shuts down Google Reader, we can all migrate to an alternative easily.

When Google shuts down Nest, people are left with non-working thermostats, and have to spend money and rebuild their systems to continue on.

Even worse, if just the internet goes down – not that rare in areas in the US only served by one ISP which doesn't have to fear competition – one is even left without heating.

The reaction of the people on the recent case where Nest went down itself, and people were left without heating, fits well as context for the following excerpt from "The Sorcerers Apprentice" (1797, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe):

        Herr, die Not ist groß!      Sir, my need is sore.
        Die ich rief, die Geister    Spirits that I've called
        werd ich nun nicht los.      My commands ignore.

<comment><USER15> > When Google shuts down Nest, people are left with non-working thermostats, > and have to spend money and rebuild their systems to continue on.

No, they are left with a normal programmable thermostat with a nicer interface than most.

> Even worse, if just the internet goes down – not that rare in areas in the > US only served by one ISP which doesn't have to fear competition – one is > even left without heating.

This is not true. The Nest operates perfectly fine without internet.

> The reaction of the people on the recent case where Nest went down itself, > and people were left without heating

That's not exactly what happened. What happened was there was a bug in the software that had an issue when their server became unavailable. But this could happen with any device that is controlled by software. And even if they had a totally open and accessible API right on the device, this problem still would have happened.

I don't like the fact that they lock up the data, but we should probably try to stomp out the myth that the device is totally useless without their servers.

<comment><USER16> > No, they are left with a normal programmable thermostat with a nicer > interface than most.

Ehh... I don't think the Nest Thermostat is completely programmable from the hardware itself. You can definitely set temperatures and toggle between heat/cool, heat, and cool; but I don't think you can edit the schedule. Even if you could, I don't think I'd want to. The hardware's UI is beautiful but UX leaves much to be desired.

<comment><USER13> _but I don 't think you can edit the schedule._

Second time I've seen this in this thread, so I walked over and checked our V1 Nest: yup, you can edit it on the device. And I rescind my earlier comment on usability: it's actually not _that_ bad. Certainly easier than the programmable thermostat it replaced.

<comment><USER16> I just checked my v1 and I was able to edit the schedule but I have no way of knowing if I was editing my weekly schedule or making a 1-off correction. I'm guess it's the later and not the former because the change isn't reflected in the App.

From my perspective it is pretty bad. While I could edit an entry in the schedule (e.g. move it, change temp range), I had no way to add or remove an entry in the schedule, had no idea what the original values were, how to cancel/undo, or know what I was editing without making a change. It was frustrating at best.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I am surprised the Nest devices allow themselves to be man-in-middle'ed like this. Why are Nest devices accepting a random (valid) certificate? One would think they will only accept a valid Google certificate, signed by the Google root certificate.

Am I missing something? The article does not mention about any software tampering on the device itself.

<comment><USER18> This is a man in the middle on the mobile app, which relies on the certificates on the phone. You just need to add your phony certificate to the OS's trust store. It's an attempt to find any private APIs that the APP is using, rather than reverse engineering the protocol between Alphabet and the nest device.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> The nest thermostat seems to use firebase.com API from my research.</comment>


30 Artistic and Creative Résumés - <AUTHOR> http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/05/30-artistic-and-creative-resumes/

<comment><USER2> Most (if not all?) of these are from graphic designers. They have to be creative for their own resume to show some of their qualifications.

I wonder how a programmer could present their resume to show their qualifications. Do you have examples of more technical resumes that manage to show that?

<comment><USER3> I don't think tech recruiters want to see a colorful/fancy resume. They want to see experience, relevant skills, GPA, etc. I mean, if your resume was in the form of a quine that included the relevant information or something I guess that would be cool, but in general I think unusual resumes work best for jobs focused on creativity and design.

<comment><USER4> Who cares about headhunters? If I want to hire a graphic designer, I'd like to see that A) they know their shit and B) I can work with them - He's not too much of an årtisté.

One of those resumes and a portfolio would handle A. If I saw a boring ms word template resume I might start to doubt their skills.

gpa? For a graphic designer, I expect it to be way down there (from all the artists I've known).

<comment><USER3> I don't think you read my comment correctly. I agree that a flamboyant resume is appropriate for a graphic designer - but not for a programmer or other tech applicant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Some of those are cool, but I suspect that a clear, concise cv combined with a portfolio would better serve everyone's needs.

I've often thought about what a cool developer resume on paper might look like, one that would satisfy HR and upper management's need for keywords and employment history, while at the same time conveying one's passion and interest in technology to the geeks.

When I'm interviewing one of the things I really, really appreciate is a resume that gives me a few places to start the interview. The ideal resume should start a conversation.

Also, most large shops totally textify resumes for distribution, so fancy formatting can be all for naught.

</comment><comment><USER6> Very interesting. It's fascinating how many of these undercut themselves by making the information hard to parse or in some cases actively sabotaging the person's prospects.

Sean McNally's RPG character sheet in particular tells me he's not serious, doesn't use a spellchecker or perform proofreading, gets himself into trouble on a frequent basis and is deeply insecure about himself. Also had to love the last one for Sofiane Yaya, which urged me not to drop it as litter in a public place. Mentally, I did the responsible thing and put it in the trashcan as suggested.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Those are beautiful, but I think some companies might frown upon them. Anyone here have a fancy resume? :)

<comment><USER7> I have no resume. Never had one that I actually cared about; the few times I put together a resume in an afternoon was because someone wanted to have something on file, usually a few days after I started :-)</comment></comment>


Valentine's Dot Gov - <AUTHOR> http://valentinesdotgov.com/

<comment><USER2> Enroll by February 14th for coverage, because on the 15th, it's too late.</comment>


Show HN: GraphvizAnim, a tool to create animated graphs, based on graphviz - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/mapio/GraphvizAnim <comment><USER2> This looks really similar to what you want to do but with d3 and interactive: [http://maurizzzio.github.io/greuler/#/examples/dfs](http://maurizzzio.github.io/greuler/#/examples/dfs) (click "run algorithm")

<comment><AUTHOR> That's really nice! I like graphviz layouts because they use curved arcs (that sometimes make graphs look much better). How difficult would be to use it with d3?

<comment><USER3> The relevant algorithm is Sugiyama, and there's an unmaintained, but working plugin for d3 called dagre-d3.

<comment><AUTHOR> Cool, I'm totally new to d3, but it seems very very interesting. It's nice to know that a good layout plugin is available. Thanks for the info!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Coincidentally I released an experimental graph animation video using graph- tool for rendering and ffmpeg for conversion: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywrMtBcgeI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywrMtBcgeI)

The technique works well for engaging data visualization, although the code is somewhat tedious.

Are the ImageMagick commands included in your Python module? I took a look and didn't see a way to create the GIF. (EDIT: found it; it is the gif() function in render.py. I am dumb)

<comment><AUTHOR> No, I am dumb and should comment the code (and provide few usage examples). I wrote it in a hurry yesterday night, it was just an hack and it ended up on the frontpage of HN.

<comment><USER5> You are not dumb. Releasing un-commented code that works is still releasing code that works.

This actually solves a problem I was having. Thanks for sharing it.

<comment><USER6> Bravo

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I really like the idea of animating graphviz graphs. It definitely helps to make them clearer.

I know it's a proof of concept but one suggestion would be to animate the line drawing itself. That's difficult if you're outputting a raster format but if you're feeling adventurous then you could output to SVG and draw the lines using the stroke-dashoffset trick:

[https://css-tricks.com/svg-line-animation-works/](https://css-tricks.com/svg- line-animation-works/)

<comment><AUTHOR> The `gvanim.jupyter` module is actually using SVG, so that would be awesome! Would you like to contribute? I'll be glad to accept a pull request :) I have opened an issue [https://github.com/mapio/GraphvizAnim/issues/3](https://github.com/mapio/GraphvizAnim/issues/3) to keep track of your suggestion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Probably off topic a bit - but is there any tool that will automatically analyze C++ code and create sequence diagrams?

<comment><USER8> I'm going to answer my own question:

[https://github.com/animatedb/oovaide](https://github.com/animatedb/oovaide)</comment></comment>


Report: NASA open source project slowed by commercial vendor - <AUTHOR> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Report-NASA-open-source-project-slowed-by-commercial-vendor-1777755.html

<comment><USER2> And this my friends is why a hammer costs the government $5000 [http://www.followsteph.com/2011/11/22/why-does-a-hammer- cost...](http://www.followsteph.com/2011/11/22/why-does-a-hammer-cost-5000/) Add to that that people will complain when they're not selected and you have to prove why. Good luck getting any kind of affordable solution!!

<comment><USER3> The very first line of that article says no, hammers don't cost the government $5,000 (at least not normal ones).

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is pretty common, no big deal. Almost every federal contract gets protested anymore (even ones this small). As long as their was no hanky-panky things should proceed like normal after a few month delay.

<comment><USER5> Do those protesting have to pay if the protest is found to be invalid? Because I hate to think of my tax payer dollars funding companies' "hail Mary" attempts at coercing the government to give e contract to them, especially if it is for every $40M contract!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> There is nothing that indicates that the bid protest has anything to do with open source. It's highly likely the previous contractor would be protesting no matter what the bid winner proposed.</comment>


Weird Ways to Make Things Invisible - <AUTHOR> http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/materials/three-weird-ways-to-make-things-invisible#.U1_pJLCHST4.hackernews

<comment><USER2> Interesting how the word "weird" has virtually become a codeword for ridiculous bottom-feeding online advertising. I initially overlooked this post simply because my brain docketed it under the "Ignore all internet content matching 'weird,' esp. 'weird way[s]'" category.</comment>


Gone fishing in a fluid trial - <AUTHOR> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26947417 <comment><USER2> For those who don't get the joke, the term "fishing" in the paper's title refers to "fishing for significance", a very common practice in academia. Basically, you take a large data set and repeatedly ask different questions of the data. If you ask enough different questions, without correcting for multiple tests, it's possible, purely by chance, to find a P-value (probability of rejecting the null hypothesis incorrectly) that appears significant.

One imagines the authors tried each zodiacal sign until they found one that passed the test. One imagines- but cannot say for sure- that a zodiacal sign is not a feature which is truly correlated with the outcome they observed.

</comment><comment><USER3> Oh man, I'm creating slides to teach intro stats to some fellow grad students, this is quite timely. Not quite dead salmon level, but maybe more concerning given the context. Check your assumptions!

</comment><comment><USER4> This is a pretty neat paper. It really highlights how much bullshit flows through the scientific paper industry.

"Publish or perish" is a bad metric, and it doesn't allow people to ask themselves if their results actually make sense in any realistic sense, but that they will be rewarded if they find some statistical correlation, no matter how inappropriately stupid.

Those four guys must have giant balls for publishing this.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> This is a precursor: [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC61047/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC61047/)</comment>