Linux to spend eternity in shadow of 'little blue E' - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/26/dziuba_linux_desktop/

<comment><USER3> We are developing a web portal for the med students at our school (tmedweb.tulane.edu).

Firefox: 48.8% IE: 32% Safari: 16.3% Chrome: 3%

IE would loose even more if the library wasn't full of MSFT Dells.

My wife uses Ubuntu on her laptop. It was quite painful to get started with it two years ago, but she had already been using OpenOffice (which was her choice, because she refused to buy MSFT Office and was prepared to use a text editor until I showed her OpenOffice). That would have been a huge leap, except she was already using Firefox. Which just wasn't all that big a leap.

We installed Ubuntu dual-boot because she could never get on the wireless network at work and I'd always come in, get on the network with my laptop, and then go online and look for how to fix her Windows problem. So she wanted to give that a try. And she didn't want to get on the internet. She really just wanted to send stuff to the printer.

She hasn't booted into windows in over a year. Totally her choice.

Now her girlfriends at work (~20 employees, 90% women, everyone uses their own laptop) are asking her questions about why her windows wobble and how it is she can fetch documents from home, and how to they get their wireless networks to pop out of a widget at the top.

Our kids have had more exposure to Linux than to Windows. My wife also uses her laptop to set up a movie for them to watch (the Smurfs and Bob the Builder are their favorites), when we drive to my parents' house (8 hours away). They play Sesame Street Workshop, Starfall, whatever.

Time. It takes time. Measured on a generational scale.

<comment><USER4> Your wife has a linux expert at home. Sadly, none of my friends that knew linux were close enough/evangelical enough to help me with my driver issues.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think those complaining about Linux in the desktop being in shadow are missing the point. They are always implying that the problem is people being stupid, or the costs of retraining being high, or evil Microsoft's marketing, or sysadmins trained in Microsoft stuff that don't want to change...

Face it... Linux is _hard_. I am close to a Ph.D. in CS, have spent years programming in several languages on different operating systems, I'm a geek that tries out new Linux distros just for fun, and I still find it very hard to make them work. I always find myself recompiling the kernel, sound drivers, etc from sources. I always have to turn off automatic updates, because they always screw up the installation - this kind of badness simply doesn't exist on Windows.

The simple, dumb Windows model of software installation, where the vendor is responsible for providing a working self-installer, and every program occupies its own directory, just seems so much better than the intricate repositories of Linux distros, which you cannot bypass without risk of screwing up your system.

I like Linux and I will keep playing with it, but I'm not surprised by its minimal share in the desktop world.

<comment><USER6> "it just works": Asus EEE PC

However, unless you are a kernel developer, if you are recompiling the kernel or sound drivers, you are working against the system and making life harder on yourself.

There's a small glitch in newer versions of X.org that (until recently) didn't allow proper dual-screens on Radeon cards. I didn't remove the debian package, download the newest X.org CVS, and compile my own version. I just reverted the package and pinned it until I felt like upgrading it. Hell, there wasn't any reason to upgrade in the first place, so that was the first mistake.

If you ever have to compile something you are either not using a modern distro (Debian, Ubuntu, and, I presume, Fedora) or are using the same techniques that were required in the 1990s but are just bad habits today (I learned this the hard way).

<comment><USER5> Hmm.. I agree these are becoming bad habits, but what if all the good habits fail? That is actually a very common case, I think.

I once couldn't make sound work on a laptop, so I tried all the obvious tricks - check if the mixer isn't accidentally set to zero etc. But when all failed, I decided to download the latest nightly build of ALSA, recompile it, and guess what - it solved the problem. I still don't know what it was...

I have similar stories with GPU support and power management, and I think I'm not alone. But we're getting into too much detail...

<comment><USER6> Fair enough. I find it's easier to pretend the driver doesn't exist unless it's packaged, and do whatever I would otherwise do.

If you were using debian or ubuntu, they removed the firmware from ALSA for legal reasons. Ugh, I know; it would be nice if they warned someone. See <https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/26294> or [http://forum.soft32.com/linux2/Bug-434592-alsa-firmware- load...](http://forum.soft32.com/linux2/Bug-434592-alsa-firmware-loaders- Missing-firmware-ins-ftopict104021.html)

However, I wouldn't expect anyone else to figure out which package to add either. But for you and I, this is at least a step up from recompiling.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The Register occasionally publishes a Windows vs Linux article that is simple trolling. The Inquirer is even better because they troll Windows advocates as well (this is presumably their idea of balanced reporting).

The give aways that this is a troll: "Users aren't stupid. They just have better shit to do than learn C++ programming or tinker around with FreeBSD.". How is this relevant. My wife, my daughter, my father and my daughter's former pre-school principal all use Linux. None know what C++ is, only my father has more than a very vague idea ("its something they use to make programs") of what a programming language is.

"How do I PivotTable in OpenOffice?": The average user does not use pivot tables, or Visual Basic for Applications. In the average working environment only "the guy who knows about computers" (there is usually one per department) uses the "advanced" stuff.

"To the average user, the computer is a means to an end.". We knew that, but it does not automatically follow that they will always regard Windows as the best means to the end. People pay a premium for Macs that are more different from Windows than the default Gnome or KDE configs are.

<comment><USER8> > The average user does not use pivot tables, or Visual Basic for > Applications.

You've got that right! I had to help some people at work, they didn't know how to format text in Excel; they wanted to change the font and make the cell backgrounds light blue.

I should have known it would happen, they were stumped by the hard drive lock on the laptop before they even started using it. I showed them it wasn't their network password it was a different password and got "but this says it's the password" referring to a Post-It note with someone's network password and username on it, a manager's! I brought up it wasn't good to have that written down, a security risk, but was told by the manager it was OK. I gave up :(

<comment><USER9> It is a good idea to have a password written down. You should have told him that it was a /valuable/ piece of paper, that should be kept with other valuable pieces of paper.

Good passwords are hard to remember. Good password discipline uses lots of good passwords. This is harder to remember. Sticking a password file in your wallet is not a bad idea. People know to keep their wallets secure. They understand how they work, and how they need to protect them.

<comment><USER10> I think I'm going to start using that idea: "Imagine that this piece of paper with your password on it is a $100 bill. Treat it accordingly (w/ respect to not losing it)."

I wish they made US paper currency > $100. The €500 would be a better example.

<comment><USER8> I also like the Euro currency, the bigger the denomination the bigger the bill.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Employees cannot choose the software they use. Much of it is unfamiliar to new staff. Anyone here ever used SAP? Oracle Applications?

Yes, there's the blue W and the green X. But for some reason Microsoft decided to take all the familiarity away from people in Office 2007. They have replaced all the menus, dialog boxes, names, icons, etc, with something completely new and unfamiliar.

No, not just different menu items or toolbox buttons, they have replaced these familiar controls themselves with a huge splurge of alien somethings that cover about a quarter of the screen with even more bloat than there was before.

In the next few years, companies will have to answer one question: Does it cost more to retrain our staff in Office 2007 and pay for the new version, or does it cost more to train them in OpenOffice and pay nothing for the software? Some may even ask whether something like google apps isn't sufficient.

The real issues are not familiarity or cost. The real issue is file formats and macros and glue code that companies rely on, and the fact that Microsoft shops have Microsoft trained and Microsoft loyal sysadmins who are anything but convinced of Linux superiority. They're not going to install Linux for you upon request. That's fantasy land.

<comment><USER3> > Microsoft trained and Microsoft loyal sysadmins who are anything but > convinced of Linux superiority

True that. That's huge. The biggest sentence in the whole post. That's your thesis, right there. Those are the people who are married to IE and MSFT Office. You can't even get them to install OpenOffice, and if you want to run FF, you better smuggle it in on a thumb drive. And there are a _lot_ of these MSFT trained folks out there. One only needs to make one call to the help desk of any large corporation to find this out. Or try to start a new project.

<comment><USER12> There's a horde of "IT" people out there that barely deserve the title of 'Technician' (much less 'Engineer'). The only education they have or seek is strictly vocational.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I don't get why all the responses are basically, "this guy's a jerk and is completely wrong." No, he isn't--Linux is still terrifying black magic to most of the general population. But, this article _says exactly how to fix that!_ You have to go after the perceptions around computing, and change the way people view computers. The author is absolutely right that on average, PC == Windows. However usable Ubuntu is won't change that. It's basically attacking the wrong problem, but it _is_ possible to attack the right problem.

(Intelligent) Trolling usually makes a point; HN should know this. I don't understand why so many people responded saying, "he's wrong, (insert numbers here), cars vs horses" and ignored the valid point he was making. The troll said it was impossible to overtake windows; come on guys, as hackers we should take that as a clue he means it isn't!

</comment><comment><USER14> Yeah, people will never use cars. When they want to travel somewhere, they expect to saddle up their horse and ride for several days.

Travelers aren't stupid, but they have better things to do than learn how to operate a two-ton mechanical contraption when they already know how to ride a horse.

</comment><comment><USER15> I can't tell, is this satire? I really hope it is... if not, then wow. I mean, is he debating the merits of operating systems by familiarity? The people he's talking about can't remember what they did in Word yesterday, so why would it make a difference if they changed the program. The argument is weak.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'm not with him 100% but he does have a point. I know too many people who think that "little blue e" is the internet.

</comment><comment><USER17> From the article:

>Users aren't stupid.

So don't act like they are. A already setup Linux machine is in fact more usable than a random Windows machine.

I started using Linux when I was 13 and I hardly knew anything about computers except playing games and using a browser. I was impressed by the functionality and elegance of the KDE desktop that the then popular Knoppix CD provided. There were a lot of cool stuff you could do without much hassle (except playing games) more accessibly than Windows and it got me hooked. Also there weren't viruses and anti-virus software so I felt I could safely mess around and install stuff. My younger sister (she was in the first grade) also enjoyed drawing on the computer and my mom didn't mind using Mozilla to use the Web.

Even a 5-10 years ago Linux was very usable and stable. Hardware support was I guess spottier but if someone gave you a configured system you would enjoy it. Thats why I think vendors should concentrate on improving and polishing existing releases, proving support for many applications. It would be very good if RedHat started supporting desktop machines for the retail market, maybe using resellers to protect the RedHat brand. I wish CentOS had the same huge Desktop community like Ubuntu does. Regular users don't have to endure the growing pains of Linux.

Also I hope appliances running on a virtual machine like Xen would spread. Virtualisation is the true path to reliability and IBM for example figured that out back in the seventies. The desktop Linux should not try to emulate windows machines but turn-key IBM ones. We have the processing power, the memory and the storage to do it so why not?

</comment><comment><USER18> Linux fails because the creators are too arrogant. They want people to switch, but remember, those people were doing fine before you came along. If you want people to switch, compell them with something they want. All linux gives is problems and headaches. Even though I am a developer, I have never had to use the internals of linux, so the fact that it is open source is irrelevant.

What really kills linux is just the arrogance of the developers.

<comment><USER19> > They want people to switch,

Who do you mean by "they" in this sentence? There are lots of people involved in building "Linux", and certainly not all of them want or care about other people switching to Linux.

> All Linux gives is problems and headaches.

Not true. Linux gives me personally much more than that: high-performance comes to mind, and a good development environment out of the box too. There is much more, but since you are just trolling, I won't bother to make a bigger list.

> What really kills linux is just the arrogance of the developers.

It doesn't really make sense to talk about something that "kills" Linux - <USER2> assuming you mean something along the lines of "small adoption on the desktop" I will point out that Linux usage has been steadily increasing.</comment></comment>


Slowing The Exodus Of Skilled Foreigners - <AUTHOR> http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Slowing-The-Exodus-Of-Skilled-ibd-15191141.html <comment><USER2> I think everyone (except maybe self-interested immigration lawyers) thinks the current system in the US is broken.

I think there are two extremes, and the US is inconsistently taking pieces of each.

In the United Arab Emirates (UAE, which contains Dubai, ...), there is a fairly open work visa policy for anyone with either enough capital ($50-100k) to set up his own business, or with a job offer paying at least $1-2k/mo for white collar positions (there is also the borderline-slavery $100-500/mo construction industry, but I think that is basically a separate issue). There is no pretense, outside banking and government, that local nationals need to be given first shot at a job.

Then, you have countries with citizenship or permanent residency-track-only immigration programs. (I think Canada's program is like this, and some other commonwealth nations.) You don't NEED to become a PR or citizen if you qualify, but almost all work visas qualify toward the PR/C process.

The main downside of the UAE system is that skilled people feel very little long-term attachment to the place. e.g. there are non-resident indian families who have lived for generations in UAE, but who are not permanent residents, although they control important businesses.

The US has a weird hybrid system, where most green cards, allocated by country and with preference toward reuniting families, go to people who have external reasons to want to stay in the US permanently (family, where they came from was worse, etc), and are generally economically non-productive. We give temporary L1/H1B/etc. visas to the economically productive, disincenting them to stay long term.

Basically, the US system is backward -- we should be trying to keep the people who are economically valuable, as they bring net value into the economy, and would allow us to increase the number of immigrants. We should have liberal short and medium term visit visas, etc. for family and tourist and other non- productive immigrants.

</comment><comment><USER3> Please don't slow them down. I generally support the idea of free market economics, and the H1-B program is an absolute subversion of it. Countries need an immigration policy. We should develop one consistent path to citizenship that is equitable and moderates the influx of immigrants at a sustainable level. If these skilled workers were truly on an even playing field with US workers then I think it would be a much better result for them, the US workers, and the country as a whole.

</comment><comment><USER4> While only speaking from experience, I've noticed that many foreign PhDs in CS, Electrical and other engineering fields are increasingly electing to go back once they are done.

The main reasons seem to include being so far away from family and being in an alien culture. Further, jobs for PhDs are increasingly available in their home countries-- this seems to seal the deal. The tough immigration stance contributes to the discouragement since foreign workers have to "pause" their lives until they get their green card.

</comment><comment><USER5> I never understood this. The US spends more money on higher education for foreigners than any other country in the world. After those foreigners graduate, it's harder for them to stay and work in the US than in any other country in the world.

That is a serious mismatch of policies.

<comment><USER6> I think I get it. We're trying to help the other countries build stronger economies. When people are desperate, feeling powerless and without hope, they tend to seek violent means to attain that power and hope. But by empowering other countries to lift themselves out of poverty or giving them the tools to become "first world" players, we actually make ourselves (US) more secure.

Said another way, it's a form of foreign aid. Looked at from this point of view, you wouldn't let anyone stay unless there was really a special need.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This article, or a variant of it, has been posted many, many times over the past few weeks. I usually chime in. I point out that 7 of the top 10 users of the H1B visa are Indian outsourcing companies that cycle workers through the US to learn a job before moving them back to India, and I provide a link. I express concern that the high number of visas may be discouraging young Americans from going into engineering and science at a time when we need them most. I link to an NPR segment with Ron Hira, where he mentions that the department of labor certified the prevailing wage at under $10/hr for a bunch of programmers, and another 70+ programmers at $24,000/yr. I've done this an embarrassing number of times now, though I am passionate about the issue, as I do think US policy is inadvertently driving young Americans out of engineering, and I think this is exactly whey we're in this situation where 60% of our grads

My question at this point is: how many people reading this are encountering a variant of this post for the first time? Are we all just gathering for a well- worn argument.

Part of the problem here is the concept of "news priming". This is done by PR departments and political groups - prior to a lobbying or legislative initiative, they'll try to frame the issue in the public mind. This is why the proponents of the H1B tried to get it termed the "innovation visa" (and probably weren't happy when India's minister of commerce called it the "outsourcing visa.")

And of course, many people here are passionate about the issue - on both sides, of course, so we jump in to make sure we are part of the "priming." But I am curious - how many people here are surprised with anything in my post? I'm starting to suspect that most people on hacker news are pretty well informed about this by now.

<comment><USER8> I seriously doubt that immigration is driving Americans out of engineering/programming. Let's take a look at some basic numbers.

The median household income in the US about $50k, men's medial income is 45K and women's is 35K. If you assume a two income family with median earners their income will be approx $80k. ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States))

Salaries in the tech industry (even at very low positions) are _much_ higher than this (i.e., than 50k, 45k, 35k). This is _now_ when salaries are supposedly low due to immigration.

I do see that Americans respond to economic incentives in other professions. During the real estate bubble a _HUGE_ number of people passed the realtor exams and got into the real estate business.

Programming/computer skills are the easiest skills to pick up (no need for expensive equipment). I'm actually very puzzled that there aren't more Americans in engineering/programming.

I'm unconvinced that fear of immigration-induced salary decreases is the reason why Americans don't want to go into engineering.

<comment><USER7> The part of your argument that leaves me unconvinced is your use of the median income as a benchmark. The article referenced (on yahoo) mentions the high percentage of foreign nationals who obtain PhD's and Master's degrees at US Universities.

So you're comparing someone who was talented enough in high school to hit the ground running with Calculus at university. This student then sleeps very few hours struggling with advanced calculus, differential equations, stochastic processes, nonlinear optimization, compiler design, chemistry, and physics. He scores well enough on the GRE (and perhaps the subject test) to get into a PhD program, and makes it through 6 years + a dissertation.

You compare that to the median. Seriously?

Meanwhile, his fellow lawyers in training breeze through a Poly Sci major. It's tough to get into a top law school, but no harder than getting into a top engineering program (because you don't have to compete with foreign nationals to get into law school in the US on anything near the scale you do in engineering). 3 years of law school or 2 of an MBA program are no picnic, but virtually _all_ students at these programs obtain their degress (which is hardly the case at PhD programs, I know this from personal experience at Berkeley).

Salaries would have to be as high or higher than Law/MBA to convince Americans to do this. Instead, engineering salaries can lag way behind, because it's easy to get foreigners, especially from countries without much economic opportunity, to sign up for this _as a way of gaining a path toward US residency and citizenship_.

While salaries might not be actively _lowered_ , they almost certainly place a limit on wage _growth_. When this happens over decades (and wages aren't similarly controlled in other fields where Law and MBA students are hired), you'll start to see a huge wage differential.

To me, this has clearly happened - and now Americans have no interest in signing up for such an intensely rigorous path with rewards that are, quite frankly, much lower than in other professions.

<comment><USER8> Wrt median: Your points seem to support what I am saying. The median general salary is much lower than even the tech industry's supposed depressed wages. Then why aren't people scrambling to become engineers like they did to become realtors or at least encouraging their children to become engineers?

I don't have the link handy, but NY Times had a great graphic with salaries of different professions. Lawyers are paid more than computer people, but the delta is not a multiple (iirc it was about 50% more). So it's not even clear to me that lawyers are paid significanty more (considering the criticality of their work).

Also it's not clear to me why you bring in PhD and master's. Most engineers in tech don't have those degrees.

<comment><USER7> <The median general salary is much lower than even the tech industry's supposed depressed wages>

My point is that it doesn't make sense to compare a skillset like engineering to the median. You'd need to compare it to the kind of salary someone capable of engineering would be able to earn in another field. Salaries for a field can be higher than the median and still be lower than they would be in the absence of an H1B program.

<Then why aren't people scrambling to become engineers like they did to become realtors or at least encouraging their children to become engineers?>

I didn't notice anyone scrambling to get their kids into the real estate business. But maybe the reason they don't encourage their kids into engineering is that they've seen that a similar or lesser effort in other fields would have a bigger payout?

<Also it's not clear to me why you bring in PhD and master's. Most engineers in tech don't have those degrees.>

I brought this up because it was used in the original article that promoted this thread. It is often used to justify the need for an H1B program.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The only reason to hire the majority of that IT "talent" was the cheaper rates, not some outstanding brilliant achievments or skills. I think the guy is lobbying the interests of those bodyshops, that make tons of money selling developers from other countries. Also how many H1B holders actually get "postgraduate US education"? Not so many, I am afraid.

<comment><USER10> Do you think Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Goldman Sachs go out of their way to hire foreigners just because they are cheaper?

<comment><USER11> Why wouldn't they? For a profit-seeking entity, lower costs seems like a good reason to me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> There are other cases, like Italians that are usually educated and trained in Italy and _then_ they go in the US. Our govern is really silly permitting this. The reason scientists go away from Italy after the initial years of research is that there is too little money for their equipment and for research in general.

</comment><comment><USER13> The H-1B program has been discredited by study after study. US Innovation did not suddenly begin with the presence of foreign "talent". Indeed if you examine the impact of this talent in their own countries you'll see that there is very little innovation coming from those geographies when the talent is there. Think about it, why would a country encourage it's most skilled to come to the US in the first place? Because the best talent in the world is right here and they want their citizens to gather knowledge from the most innovative system and bring it back home. The H-1B program exports our most valuable resource - our competitive edge.

<comment><USER10> There's little innovation in (say) India and China because talent is not enough; you need capital and free markets.

Also, as far as I know countries do not "encourage" their citizens to go to US. Individuals choose to go to US on their own. It's not like they're embarking on a government-funded trip.</comment></comment>


Heartbleed Flaw Said Used in Hospital Hacking - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-20/heartbleed-flaw-said-used-by-chinese-in-hospital-hacking.html

<comment><USER2> I thought Heartbleed attacks were difficult to detect. How did they determine they used the Heartbleed vulnerability, especially since the attack happened only a week after Heartbleed was revealed?

> "Community Health ... disclosed yesterday that Chinese hackers stole > patients' Social Security numbers, names and addresses, without revealing > how the hackers got in."

And then...

> "We never had any tangible proof of an attack until now," said David > Kennedy, founder of TrustedSec LLC, a security consulting company based in > Cleveland, Ohio, who first reported Heartbleed was used to attack Community > Health on his company's website.

Here's the report: [https://www.trustedsec.com/august-2014/chs-hacked- heartbleed...](https://www.trustedsec.com/august-2014/chs-hacked-heartbleed- exclusive-trustedsec/) \-- but I still wonder how it was detected.

<comment><USER3> That says they used a vulnerability in a "Juniper device"; probably a router/firewall appliance. There have been quite a few vulnerabilities[1] in their Junos line[2], but any or all of these ones seems likely[3]

[1] [http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability- list/vendor_id-874/y...](http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability- list/vendor_id-874/year-2014/Juniper.html)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junos)

[3] [http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-3816/](http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-3816/)

[http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-3412/](http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-3412/)

[http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-3411/](http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-3411/)

[http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-0615/](http://www.cvedetails.com/cve/CVE-2014-0615/)

<comment><USER4> Most probably a juniper Secure Access SSL VPN appliance. I was administrating one too when heartbleed was "made public".

Luckily we were not running the latest Version Tree of the firmware so we were still on an older openssl version.

I dont think Juniper Devices have more or less culnerabilities than other vendors. Its highly developed stuf (chasing technical advances, bringing new firmwares every other month).

You just shouldnt use .0-1 Versions of new Release Trees like with every Vendor...

And for Heartbleed: Nearly Everyone based on linux/Openssl was affected somehow.

<comment><USER3> Good point. VPN would have been an obvious target. Medical services especially need to share data with healthcare providers to ensure clients get the appropriate treatment and that usually involves secure connections between locations.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > _" The Chinese embassy in Washington said it wasn't aware of the attack."_

It is utterly amazing to me how we view the Chinese people as such an evil "other".

I'd love to know how they determined that this was Chinese hackers, which doesn't appear in the Trusted Sec report, and from my amateur eyes would seem near impossible to determine with certainty. But if it was the case, why the first thought is that it was an action on behalf of the government instead of a couple Chinese kids messing about. Count the "Chinese hackers" in the article.

If the vulnerability was public at the beginning of April, how were there attacks made in June?

Hard to believe they actually asked the embassy if they knew about the attack. The embassy's reaction was understandable.

</comment><comment><USER6> The scariest part of this is that even a week after Heartbleed went public, there are InfoSec professionals out there who still hadn't patched/brought down public-facing OpenSSL implementations.

<comment><USER7> I'm pretty sure there's a scarier part where there are still InfoSec pros out there who haven't bothered patching their OpenSSL implementation, months after Heartbleed went public.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is what happens when we live in a world that gives OpenSSL $2,000 a year and Yo $1.5MM in funding...

<comment><USER3> The flaw, as I understand it, was as much a result of their development and patch acceptance process as much as budgetary constraints.

There were many complaints before and since of how difficult it is to get bugs patched and especially their idiosyncratic approach to development. In essence, they duplicated OS functionality even when unnecessary and had a large swath of code that was fundamentally redundant and/or broken.

<comment><USER9> Spot on.

They supported everything. For example, they supported a variety of flavors of MD5. (Apparently bloat that LibreSSL has gotten rid of, or so I've heard).

The whole package had around 300,000 lines of code. Even with funding it'd be difficult to maintain.</comment></comment></comment>


Microloans for entrepreneurs in developing countries, loans that change lives - <AUTHOR> http://www.kiva.org <comment><USER2> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit> is a good overview. It amazes me that this doesn't get more coverage, especially after the Nobel.

One of many interesting details is that women get the majority of the loans because they're usually far better credit risks.

<comment><USER3> Sadly, microcredit is nowhere near profitable. Yunus et. al. are heavily government-subsidized. And the reason most of the loans go to women is that Yunus has a really bizarre feminist agenda. Microcredit is maybe a good way to run a charity, but it's not a business.

<http://www.mises.org/journals/fm/Dec06.pdf>

<comment><USER4> The Mises article is incorrect. Grameen Bank's website (<http://www.grameen- info.org/bank/)> contains audited financial statements. The Grameen Bank broke even in 1984, hovered around the break-even point until 1993, and has made steady profits since then. It made approximately $15M on revenues of $112M in 2005.

That's not particularly impressive from a financial standpoint, but it's certainly not a charity. It's more than most Web 2.0 startups make, after all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Turns out microcredit banks need hackers! There is a huge cost involved in keeping track of all those tiny loans manually, and thus they need inexpensive and effective technology to manage their operations.

Mifos is an open-source microcredit banking system, and they need volunteers: <http://www.grameenfoundation.org/what_we_do/technology_programs/mifos_initiative/>

</comment><comment><USER6> Frontline (PBS) did a feature on Kiva which was rebroadcast here a few days ago; you can read about it here: <http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/blog/2006/12/a_little_goes_a.html> and see the video here: <http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/uganda601/video_index.html>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Browsing the current and previous loans is truly fascinating. I like how there is a story behind every loan.

Here's a good one. [http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action;=about&id;=408](http://www.kiva.org/app.php?page=businesses&action=about&id=408)

</comment><comment><USER7> In theory this seems great, but how does it really work? I mean what is preventing people from just making up businesses, taking the money and vanishing into the jungle forever?

<comment><USER5> When an individual gets a loan, the village itself is sort of "co-signing" it. If the person defaults or runs away, the entire village's "credit score" is affected.

This is not theory: Millions of loans were granted worldwide, and in fact the default rate is actually lower than traditional banks in developed countries.

Note: My comments above are about microcredit in general, and not specifically about Kiva (which I don't know much about it)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> HELLO MY NAME IS SUE FROM NIGERIA. My FATHER left ME a LOAN with KIVA. HE ALSO GAVE ME THIS GODAWFUL NAME. PLEASE HELP.</comment>


Ask HN: Can you develop "work ethic"? - <AUTHOR>

A common trait of all successful business people, athletes, entertainers, etc. is that they all work insanely hard.
Personally, I've never been a very hard worker; I've always preferred to work smart. There are many smart-but-lazy types out there, who could probably achieve much more with a little work ethic.
So my question is: can you develop work ethic? Is it something instilled from an early age? Is it about changing your psychological view of the world?
Will Smith says "I'm not afraid to die on a treadmill. I will not be outworked, period...if we get on a treadmill together, there's 2 things: you're getting off first, or I'm going to die. It's really that simple." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M88uMRwsj0U&feature=player_detailpage#t=242s
Do we simply make decisions sooner and execute on them rather than think through them? <comment><USER2> Lots of unsuccessful people work very very hard as well. The trick is not to just work "smart" or to just work "hard" but to work both "smart" AND "hard". If you observe highly effective successful people, you'll see they work smart and work hard.

Can you develop a work ethic? Of course you can. Human behavior is very malleable. The military makes many lazy people into hard workers. For others, perhaps all you need is a really desirable goal that overshadows everything else in your life. I doubt there is a magic bullet, single solution. As with so many things, different routes or different techniques are probably more suitable for different people.

</comment><comment><USER3> If I have something I'm passionate about, I have no problem working VERY hard. When my friends and I started a new business, I loved it. I had no problem working 16-18 hours a day because there was no place I'd rather be. On the other side of that, my first job was in manufacturing. I started work when they asked me to and I clocked out when they asked me to but I never put any more effort in than was absolutely necessary. I have a good feeling that you simply haven't found that dream project yet. Once you have something that you think about even while you're at home, something that you can't wait to start doing every monday, you'll be surprised how easy the "hard work" becomes.

</comment><comment><USER4> I wouldn't say that I have been developing "work ethic", but I would say I have been actively developing "work capacity" in the last few years. I was diagnosed with a genetic disorder late in life, which explains a lot of my lack of energy, focus or accomplishment over the years. But I have also been on a few lists for parents of gifted kids and this kind of issue comes up fairly often as a topic: That gifted kids are frequently kind of lazy and used to being able to spend 5 minutes on something and get A's. Many of them have a crisis when they hit college and have to really study for the first time in their lives. For one thing, many of them don't know how to really study because they never really had to. For another, it's a huge shock and identity crisis.

I didn't go through that with college. I had good study habits. I did find college was actual work, much more so than high school, and I did have some bumps in the road initially, but nothing like some of the stories I have heard. However, I was quite ill when I was finally diagnosed in my 30's with "atypical cystic fibrosis" and it rapidly became clear to me that I could get healthier but not if I remained married to the man I was with. Like all my doctors, my ex was all too happy to blame it all on my genes and wash his hands of any real responsibility. It was clear to me that he would never get on board with the drastic measures needed for me to get healthier and that if I stayed, I would face the horror of dying a slow, torturous death essentially at the hands of loved ones and doctors who would all think I was insane for blaming them. It was clear to me that leaving was my only hope of getting well and getting well was my only hope of proving that I was right, this could be done. So I got divorced while very ill and started my life over.

I got a Certificate in GIS before divorcing and had a good call back rate on my resume. But I was very ill and doped to the gills, so I didn't interview well. I ultimately ended up with an entry level job unrelated to my training which paid about half of what the GIS jobs I had been applying to paid. I've been stuck in this same job for 4.5 years while getting well. Being so sick has hampered my performance and prevented me from getting promoted. So I have had ample opportunity to get over thinking I'm all Special and can just slap something together at the last minute and it will still be vastly superior to what everyone else is doing, which is my historical experience prior to trying to start my life over while very ill.

FWIW: A couple of very intelligent people at work who went from basically the job I am doing now directly to a supervisory position later got fired. I think a lot of very talented, intelligent people have serious, serious issues with what you are calling "work ethic" (or ethics of any sort). They think the rules don't quite apply to them because, in fact, the rules for someone very talented really are different. I think such people are pretty routinely in danger of getting confused about just which rules they really have to follow. I am aware that I am often able to find a loop-hole or what not -- that doing something well enough or doing things differently in the right way can put you in a different space -- but I am also acutely aware that social and ethical stuff (like respecting other people) still applies, no matter how smart I am.

I would suggest you a) look to your health for a possibly unrecognized, and thus untreated, issue (such as allergies) and b) put yourself in a situation where your natural talents aren't terribly helpful and you just have to do the grunt work, like everyone else. You might try volunteering in some capacity to accomplish this piece of it. I learned a lot of humbleness volunteering to teach math (and tutoring a mentally retarded girl who was in algebra and worked harder for her C's and D's than I ever worked for A's and B's) and doing volunteer work at a homeless shelter. Privilege tends to foster laziness. Getting out of your little insular world (if you have such, I don't know if you do) can be wonderfully growth-producing.

EDIT: As for the health stuff and my focus on the idea of "work capacity", please note that Will Smith has to have a certain amount of physical work capacity to make the statement you quoted. So if you don't have that attitude, it's possible that it's because you just don't have the physical capacity -- i.e. you aren't as healthy/fit as he is. If you want to be like him in terms of attitude, I strongly recommend you work on developing work capacity, as I have done, which is very much rooted in physical ability to do sustained work. Even minor health issues, if not properly attended to, will interfere in this regard.</comment>


Facebook denies it is a social network in legal filing - <AUTHOR> https://www.pcmag.com/news/369501/facebook-denies-being-a-social-network-in-lawsuit-response <comment><USER2> From the text referenced in Facebook's response as cited by the article:

To begin using the Facebook website, a consumer first creates a Facebook account. The consumer can then add other Facebook consumers as "friends" and by accumulating Facebook friends, the consumer builds a social network on the Facebook website.

The following statement in the article:

So Facebook is denying it's a destination that allows consumers to sign-up, add their friends, and build a social network.</comment>


IBM wants to kill the hard drive it invented - <AUTHOR> http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/04/ibm-wants-to-kill-the-hard-drive/

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately the title has little to do with the content of the article, but the technology seems interesting and promising.</comment>


Sephora discriminated against Asian customers, lawsuit claims - <AUTHOR> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/19/lawsuit-sephora-idUSL2N0T91MJ20141119

<comment><USER2> Original title: "Sephora discriminated against Asian customers, lawsuit claims"

Current HN title: "False positives are discrimination according to this lawsuit against Sephora"

This seems to be gratuitous and unsupported (by the article) editorializing. The article indicates that the lawsuit claims _only_ blocking online accounts (causing loss of rewards points, etc.) of customers that had either Asian surnames or email addresses with Chinese domains. The lawsuit doesn't (from any information in the article) claim that false positives are discrimination.

<comment><USER3> Thanks. We reverted the title.</comment></comment>


Understanding Python decorators - <AUTHOR> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/739654/understanding-python-decorators <comment><USER2> this is RTFM material and i wish i could downvote it

<comment><USER3> I don't think that it is quite RTFM material. I looked at the documentation on decorators in the python manual(actually there was only passing mention in the manual it was fleshed out in the pep3129) and it is fairly lacking. Sure it describes how the decorators operate in a syntactical sense it does not provide the motivation for them or the examples that this stack overflow question answers.

<comment><USER2> Understood. YMMV. However, I have a couple books on Python, plus the official docs, plus Google, plus the REPL shell, and between those I found more than ample information on how they work and what they're useful for.

I hope we don't reach a point here on HN where the home page is filled with questions like, "How do 'for' loops work in C?" because that would make my K&R C book cry, among other things. :)

<comment><USER3> I think decorators are a bit different than for loops but I get your gist :)

I think this article is fine for HN for a few reasons:

1\. Not all python programmers know about decorators and they might not be sufficiently motivated to search them out.

2\. Decorators do not have obvious utility after reading python's manual.

3\. HN commentary is usually more interesting than the article and the submitter might have wanted to spark some debate on the utility of them.

4\. This answer is a good example of a well written(mostly, there were some grammatical errors but overall good) through explanation that was succinct without being too succinct and leaving out important details.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Baking Pi – Operating Systems Development - <AUTHOR> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/projects/raspberrypi/tutorials/os/?

<comment><USER2> Another fantastic resource: [https://github.com/dwelch67/raspberrypi](https://github.com/dwelch67/raspberrypi)

</comment><comment><USER3> So, I haven't written ARM assembly since I owned an Archimedes computer many years ago, but isn't there a mistake describing the very first assembly language instruction in lesson 1?

ldr r0,=0x20200000

Shouldn't the LDR be a MOV?

<comment><USER4> LDR is a pseudo instruction that uses MOVs to load a register.

([http://www.woodmann.com/fravia/The%20ARM%20Processor.htm](http://www.woodmann.com/fravia/The%20ARM%20Processor.htm))

> _The ARM assembler also supports a similar pseudo operation. The construct > LDR rd,=value is used to load value into register rd. The LDR pseudo > instruction uses the MOV or MOV instructions, or it places the constant in > memory and uses program counter relative addressing to load the constant._

([http://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/as/ARM- Opcodes.html](http://sourceware.org/binutils/docs/as/ARM-Opcodes.html))

> _If expression evaluates to a numeric constant then a MOV or MVN instruction > will be used in place of the LDR instruction, if the constant can be > generated by either of these instructions. Otherwise the constant will be > placed into the nearest literal pool (if it not already there) and a PC > relative LDR instruction will be generated._

<comment><USER3> Thanks! That makes sense, I'm only familiar with the old assembler from BBC Basic :) 0x202 wouldn't be a constant that you could use with MOV now I think about it, since it could only express integers generated with an 8 bit value and a shift.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Very appetizing course notes.

However, I wonder if it isn't too painful in the long run to teach OS programming on a target where you have to flip SD cards every time you compile (as opposed to one of those with a hardware debugger included, like Launchpad or ST Discovery).

When I took Operating Systems (INF242 at Oslo) ten years ago, we wrote an operating system for PCs that booted from floppies, and debugging was largely a matter of poking bytes to 0xB800:0000, which made this course somewhat unpopular with students with little low-level programming experience.

</comment><comment><USER6> Darn it.. Too many interesting things to do. I really need to lose the day job.

</comment><comment><USER7> Awesome. I tried to follow the porting of inferno to the RPi [1], but i gave up. I had issues i couldn't fix, function calls magically didn't work.

[1] [http://lynxline.com/porting-inferno-os-to-raspberry- pi/](http://lynxline.com/porting-inferno-os-to-raspberry-pi/)</comment>


Mastodon 2.7: Highlights from the changelog - <AUTHOR> https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2019/01/mastodon-2.7/ <comment><USER2> One thing I didn't like when I tried Mastodon (and I'm talking about the web client implementation here, not the underlying protocol) was that the feed element was too thin and there was no way to increase its width without resorting to _inspect element_ or grease-monkey scripts.

Mastodon thread: [https://mastodon.social/@dsandoval/100137860645975194](https://mastodon.social/@dsandoval/100137860645975194)

Good part is that people actually replied to me, instead of the 0 interaction I would have gotten on twitter.

<comment><USER3> Mastodon has alternative front-ends, a lot of instances have:

* pleroma front/back-end alternative, e.g. [https://soteria.mastodon.host/](https://soteria.mastodon.host/)

* pinafore front-end, e.g. [https://pinafore.mastodon.host/](https://pinafore.mastodon.host/)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> This is also the release that adds the foundation of support for follower migration.

[https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/pull/9629](https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/pull/9629)

<comment><USER4> This is such a great idea!

After reading the PR, there is one thing that is not clear to me: how can you ensure an swarm of bad servers are not trying to DDOS a remote server? If a bunch of servers create fake users, and some fake super users who everyone follows, then the act of moving those super accounts is O(3) jobs for every follower the super user has (as it says in the PR)

Wouldn't this attack be easily exploitable? Are there any other tools to prevent these kinds of attacks? (apart from baning server domains)

<comment><USER5> Although the receiving server needs to run (2n+m) jobs to migrate a super account with n users on m servers (m <= n), which is 3n in the worst case, the originating server also needs to run (n+m) jobs, for a maximum amplification factor of 2 (when m=1). If servers really want to DDoS each other, they can probably find a better method.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I really can't recommend Mastodon highly enough.

The interactions on there are just so much more organic than on Twitter. You get to actually have discussions with people, instead of aiming for as much snark as possible.

<comment><USER7> >You get to actually have discussions with people

Ofc. Mastodon by nature is an echo chamber. Choose your own enclosure and find people who agree with you. The only difference that Mastodon is the first where that's the main selling point

<comment><USER8> The trope of "X is an echo-chamber" needs to die out. You say it like high- trust communities are a bad thing.

All productive interest groups are that way by their nature (HN is that way too). The opposite simply devolves into lowest common denominator garbage...instagram models posing with their breakfast, twitter outrage-porn, etc.

<comment><USER9> And in the bad old days of the internet, people wouldn't just pick one group to be part of. You could have different personas on different sites and decide how much to participate with different groups. This is harder to do with Twitter and Facebook because they only run one instance. E.g. there's no "fringe science" echo-chamber Twitter, but that means the fringe science people just get thrown in with the rest of Twitter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Has identity been dealt with?

I have a domain, and I want my identity to be tied to my domain, regardless of which mastadon server I'm using. I don't want someone else in control of my identity. I don't want to lose my followers.

It'd be ideal if Mastadon supported something like IndieAuth. That way I could control my identity while also using the same identity across mastodon servers.

<comment><USER11> Self-host or use a managed host like [https://masto.host](https://masto.host)

<comment><USER10> That shouldn't be necessary. I don't have to host my own email servers to use my own domain. I've changed email providers 4 times and kept the same email address. I've changed web hosts dozens of times, and kept the same address.

For me it's a non-starter.

<comment><USER11> You have completely overlooked the part of the statement advising you to use a managed host.

What do you think your email and web providers are doing on your behalf?

<comment><USER12> My understanding is/was that if you decide to change managed host you then still lose your formed identity - is this no longer the case?

<comment><USER13> If you decide to change your managed host, you take your domain name and database with you, so outwardly, nothing changes and you lose nothing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Honestly, without a way to search content and not just people/hashtags, there isn't an organic way for me to discover people talking about what I'm interested in, so Mastodon just isn't useful out of the gate. It relies on finding a niche community you're interested in out of the gate, and if I wanted to go that route I'd just use Reddit.

<comment><AUTHOR> I've never found anything like snouts.online on Reddit. Even /r/furry doesn't come close. It's the Anthrocon or MFF of subreddits. Furry may be a niche, but it's a _big_ niche. Mastodon has several furry-focused instances with their own unique communities.

There are a lot of good subreddits, but the nature of the experience is different from a Mastodon instance. And a Pleroma instance will also be different because the choice of Pleroma over Mastodon is conscious.

Mastodon doesn't yet have communities centered around hashtags (like #amwriting or #mbmbam, for example) like on Twitter, but it's getting there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Interestingly, my first time updating to a new version (I just joined last weekend) didn't go well: [https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/9882](https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/9882)

I rolled back for now but I hope I'll be able to find out what causes this syntax error somewhere deep in one of the modules which node uses to serve the streaming API or something.

<comment><USER6> Are you deploying directly? I found the update experience much nicer when using the Docker option.

<comment><USER15> I had it in docker first, but because I just have the smallest server on Digital Ocean with 500 MB RAM and already running redis and Postgres, using Docker made it obviously start complete new instances which would fill the RAM and swap and make the load go up to 20. After reusing the already running services and removing docker I could easily fit everything in the existing RAM+swap and the load would go down to 0.15, that is why I decided not to use docker, even if it is much nicer for deployment.

The smallest offering at Digital Ocean is $5/month, if I want to go up with RAM it's additional $5 per GB of RAM, to get it running nicely in docker it seems I'd need to pay 3 times the monthly fee of what I'm paying now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> "This repository has been archived by the owner. It is now read-only." ([https://github.com/tootsuite/documentation/blob/master/Runni...](https://github.com/tootsuite/documentation/blob/master/Running- Mastodon/Production-guide.md))

So where is it?

<comment><USER13> [https://docs.joinmastodon.org/](https://docs.joinmastodon.org/)

Linked from the README in the repository you linked.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I want to try Mastadon, but after giving up all social media (besides some private slack/irc/discord servers, hn, and reddit) I don't know if I want to go back to it again.

But Mastadon does intrigue me.

<comment><USER16> You and me both (however I still have a FB account for some reason). I keep on hearing about Mastadon but haven't dabbled.

I have access to quite a lot of hardware and internets ... right ... deploy VM and let's have a play.

[https://github.com/tootsuite/documentation#running- mastodon](https://github.com/tootsuite/documentation#running-mastodon)

<comment><USER6> I found the Docker option to be the best route, especially as far as updating is concerned.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Can anyone recommend a high quality Mastodon client for iOS? I'd like to use it a bit more, but always end up falling back to Twitter.

<comment><USER19> Toot! is the one you want. It's fully-featured and can compete with other social network clients. It costs money, but it's definitely a case of getting what you pay for.</comment></comment>


Anonymous wiki-like system for reviews - <AUTHOR>

I recently built and launched a social experiment that attempts to marry the collaborative aspects of a wiki with the organizational tools of HN. Why? Well, to see if more honest reviews can be derived from the voices of many when reviewer identity is (mostly) factored out.
It's not quite a business venture; I'm more interested in building a new recourse for frustrated little guys (such as myself, though I'm actually 6' [hayo!]).
There's certainly a risk that this system will devolve into something vitriolic and mean-spirited. To this end, I've implemented a number of probabilistic and learning-based techniques for harvesting meaning from noise. The system can still be gamed -- it's just a bit harder.
Last, I've already abstracted out the "endpoint" interface (i.e., identifiers that can be tied to opinions; currently digits) and plan to introduce support for URLs and emails shortly.
I'd love to get your feedback both in terms of the site and toward building an initial community. I'm also open to collaboration if you find this project interesting. Oh-- and please be gentle, I am but a humble dork :)
With that said, I respectfully submit for HN's consideration:
http://gossip.ly/ <comment><USER2> Watch out for possible liability for defamatory content - the Communications Decency Act [1] may provide you with some immunity from liability, but there are cases suggesting otherwise in fact situations not dissimilar to yours. [2][3]

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act>

[2] [http://www.citmedialaw.org/sites/citmedialaw.org/files/2004-...](http://www.citmedialaw.org/sites/citmedialaw.org/files/2004-04-19-District%20Court%20Opinion.pdf)

[3] [http://www.citmedialaw.org/sites/citmedialaw.org/files/2005-...](http://www.citmedialaw.org/sites/citmedialaw.org/files/2005-12-27-Hy%20Cite%20v.%20Badbusinessbureau%20Order.pdf)</comment>


Show HN:My first Game Android - <AUTHOR> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.devmonsters.getem&hl=es-419 Hello there. I just finish my first game and I would like to have some feed back.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.devmonsters.getem&hl=es-419
I hope you enjoy it! <comment><USER2> hahahaha XD</comment>


How Firefox OS plans to kill — not reinvent — the app store - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2013/07/18/firefox-os-app-store/

<comment><USER2> If you want to go directly to the article to which venturebeat.com links:

[https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/07/app-discovery-firefox- os-f...](https://hacks.mozilla.org/2013/07/app-discovery-firefox-os-for- developers-the-platform-html5-deserves/)</comment>


Arc Forum - <AUTHOR> http://arclanguage.org/forum <comment><AUTHOR> To be clear, pg wrote this, not me.

<comment><USER2> That means it's not a Show HN

<comment><AUTHOR> Share HN? Anyway people here should definitely check it out and give it a "try"</comment></comment></comment>


ElDewrito 0.5.0.2 Released (Mod of Halo Online Early Build) - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloOnline/comments/423you/0501/ <comment><AUTHOR> Halo fans on HN may wish to check this out. It's a mod of Halo Online[1] a free to play game that was only meant for a Russian release.

Modders are incorporating maps from older Halo games, such as Hang em High[2].

[1] [https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloOnline/wiki/index/faq](https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloOnline/wiki/index/faq)

[2] [https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloOnline/comments/42qdvg/collecti...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloOnline/comments/42qdvg/collection_of_most_popular_0502_mods_grab_them_all/)</comment>


Apple needs to update Mac Mini, which hasn't been updated in 3 years - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-mac-mini-refresh-2017-8 <comment><USER2> 3 years? Try 6. The last "update" was almost the exact same specs, except everything was soldered on.

 _Mid 2011_

Dual-core Intel Core i5

2.3 GHz (2.9 GHz) / 2.5 GHz (3.2 GHz)

 _Late 2014_

Dual-core Intel Core i5

2.6 GHz (3.1 GHz) / 2.8 GHz (3.3 GHz)

The only other difference is user had the option to get 16GB (soldered) RAM at time of purchase and the base price went up $100-200.

<comment><USER3> Are those the same generation of intel processors? That it's a "core i5" of <x> GHz doesn't really say much.

<comment><USER4> 2011: Sandy Bridge

2014: Haswell

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I had a mid 2011 Mac Mini hooked up to my TV for a while - it was pretty nice overall, although it was the only computer left in my house with a mechanical hard drive.

Rather than upgrade to an SSD, though, I ended up replacing it with a used i3 NUC. (Partially because I wanted to try out the HDMI CEC adapter from Pulse Eight, and partially because the premium from selling the Mac Mini covered the cost of a faster NUC + SSD + CEC adapter with a little bit left over.)

BUT I didn't really use the CEC parts that much, and the Intel sound drivers would "loose" my speakers and start refusing to output sound over HDMI anytime the TV went to sleep, forcing me to reboot the entire computer to get sound again. I ended up giving the NUC to my dad. (The drivers don't seem to exhibit the same bug with his monitor.)

I'm now onto a compute stick + USB sound card (because it had the same HDMI audio bug as the NUC), and I still occasionally wish I had just stuck with the Mac Mini.

<comment><USER6> Not nearly as elegant of a solution, but I've found that my Pi 3 does a great job of being the 'media box' I've been using my 2nd gen (I think?) Apple TV for. I've been using it with OSMC, wireless keyboard with trackpad, an external hard drive, and an xbox 360 controller. Great little media box. OSMC is dirt simple, I could probably give it to my parents and they'd figure out how to use it pretty quickly.

Of course if I wanted to do computing I'd just use one of the desktop distros.

<comment><USER5> Yea, I tried that with a first-gen PI and decided it wasn't fast enough, but I imagine the current-gen ones would be.

It also didn't seem quite flexible enough, though - I do a lot of browser- based stuff (Youtube, Netflix, Plex, PBS Video, etc.) And I have a blu-ray drive connected - I usually just rip CDs and movies to my plex server as soon as I buy them, but occasionally I want to play something right away.

And, lastly, I occasionally just use the TV computer to look up random things on the internet.

So, I think I'm stuck with a "real" computer for the time-being (meaning a desktop OS and browser, mostly). A Pi with a regular Raspbian install would probably work, but I've got everything set up and working well at this point, so no reason to change it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> As someone who dislikes the all-in-one form factor of the iMac and quite enjoys being able to mix and match the monitors I want with a tiny, quiet machine, I really hope this happens soon. My current desktop is a 2010 Mini with dual HD displays, and it is getting a bit long in the tooth...

<comment><USER8> Unless you're dead set on OSX, you could look into one of Intel's NUC kits [1]. I find this one pretty intriguing [2] (other than the skull thing, but they provide a blank faceplate as well), but it does limit you to an M.2 form- factor SSD.

They are a bit expensive for what you're getting, IMO, but they are at least upgradable in some aspects, and similar in form factor to the mac mini.

1\. [https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards- kits...](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards- kits/nuc/kits.html) 2\. [https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards- kits...](https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards- kits/nuc/kits/nuc6i7kyk.html)

<comment><USER7> I've been writing [http://taoofmac.com](http://taoofmac.com) for around 15 years. I'm pretty much dead set on macOS for at least 50% of what I do :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I've found this is still the most practical way of running a Mac build agent. Other options are to spend thousands on a Mac Pro or MacBook, both of which don't really work in a rack (and I'm being generous by saying the Mac Mini does -- it at least fits in a 1U space).

What are other people doing for Mac build agents?

<comment><USER10> Same thing you are - racking Mac Minis and crossing my fingers Apple will provide a hardware update in the not-too-distant future. And to get the Mac Mini to work in that environment isn't cheap by the time you get the enclosures, redundant networking, power connections, etc. Add in the need to run copies of MacOS in VMs to support multiple Xcode/iOS build combinations and I need a machine with a LOT more oomph. Heck, we've even started eyeing Mac Pros but are concerned they're being discontinued and aren't well-suited for rack mounting at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Article mentions that the Mac Pro is now called the iMac pro... I hope not. I hope the iMac pro is just that, a pro version of the iMac, and that a new Mac Pro comes out as well. I have an original (now 11 year old) Mac Pro 1.1, and it still works. Upgraded the original dual dual cores to dual quads, upgraded memory, added ssd and all still works. I don't use it as often as I did, once, but I can. And with some hacking, it even runs latest OS X... having it in an iMac format means that if the screen goes, your kind of screwed. And if you want higher res for the main screen.. we'll your still screwed... I just hope the Mac Pro lives on...

<comment><USER12> > I hope the iMac pro is just that, a pro version of the iMac, and that a new > Mac Pro comes out as well.

That's exactly the roadmap that was announced at the last Apple WWDC: Pro version of the iMac around the end of this year, to be followed by a new Mac Pro (with no built-in monitor) when it's good and ready.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> As growing tired of waiting for updated mac mini:

What are the non-apple options in term of machines if you want to keep using thunderbolt cinema display ? (I'm fine with switching to windows).

Issue there is display's only thunderbolt 2 male cable. It's easy to go from thunderbold female on machine to hdmi/displayport with adapters (macbook to any non-apple display), but what I need is other way around connectivity. Has anyone had any luck with that display and non-apple hardware?

Edited: Ideally keeping camera, speakers and usb hub working..

<comment><USER14> Thunderbolt displays will only work with a Thunderbolt port. Apparently you can adapt the Thunderbolt display's Thunderbolt 2 mini-display port connector to the newer Thunderbolt 3 connector via Apple's adapter. But you're going to have to research OS support outside Mac OS.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Presumably, the lack of updates isn't just some slip-up.

There's a reason Apple isn't updating it. I would guess it is doing poorly relative to other consumer Macs and has little strategic value.

(Probably, the Mac Pro sold very poorly which is why Apple let it languish as well. But they eventually realized it's strategic value and decided to put some resources into fixing it. The Apple TV probably also has not done well historically, but has tremendous strategic value, so they haven't let it languish too much.)

</comment><comment><USER16> What I'd really like to see is Mac Pros that use Core i5 and i7, starting around $1500 or a bit more, compared to the Xeon models starting at $3000. These new machines would be called the Mac Tower and the Mac Tower Pro.

Then Apple could make a smaller, quiet, SSD-only Mac mini, and push down the starting price.

I figure that there are two groups who like the Mac mini: those who want a cheap and small desktop Mac, and those who want a modular desktop Mac, but don't need a Mac Pro.

</comment><comment><USER17> I seriously just want a Macbook Air with high res screen. Everything else about it is 100% perfect for me.

<comment> Spartan-S63 The closest thing to that would be the 12" MacBook. I really think Apple needs to put the MacBook Air line out to pasture. They haven't updated it in a couple years and it was honestly never that great to begin with.

They should just focus on the MacBook and the MacBook Pro. With the new 13" MacBook Pros, the weight and footprint is getting ever closer to the MacBook Air, so that's also an option.

<comment><USER18> That might well work one day in the future, but today, a MacBook Air with retina display would be a significantly better machine, given the TDP of the CPUs typically used in the Air vs the passively cooled 12" MacBook.

This is the computer huge numbers of people want, but Apple force up the range to the entry level 13" MacBook Pro (which incidentally IIRC currently has the same TDP class CPUs as the existing Air...) to get a decent display.

Really the entry level 13 inch MacBook Pro should start at $999, given it largely _is_ a MacBook Air but with Retina display and TB3. Heck the 13 inch Pro is technically thinner as well now, even if the wedge shape of the Air makes the Air seem smaller. They all but weigh the same now too.

> it [The MacBook Air] was honestly never that great to begin with

In absolute terms perhaps not, and definitely not at launch. Later models however offered a pretty compelling mix of price, size and performance for a long time. Especially the performance to battery life ratio, which at various times has been one of the best compromises in Apple's lineup. There's a reason sites like the Wirecutter and the Verge kept it their recommended machine "for most people" for such a long time. I still think later versions of the Air are some of the best machines Apple has made at their respective peaks, again "for most people".

<comment><USER19> Yup, for me the current Apple lineup is a bit more than needed in the 13in Mac Pro, and a little low in the Macbook. And neither are giving real battery life/perf ratio that I'm looking for - so there's a gap. If not Apple then as an alternative I keep hoping that some linux shop will put in some power integration work to a quality PC-supply chain sourced laptop - because if I could get 10-12 hrs of light use battery life I think I'd switch.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The mini has special challenges. It is a low volume product compared to the the iPhones, iPads, and iMacs. There are probably 100 iPhones sold for each mini. Simultaneously, it is a cost sensitive product, sitting at the bottom of the Apple computer price list. It is probably difficult to recover the engineering, qc, and manufacturing costs to change a model.

Couple this with a baffling inability of Intel's market segmentation machinations to cough out a pair of chips which make sense for a low end and a high end mini and there really isn't a compelling reason to make a new model. Intel's newer offerings just don't offer enough bang to pay the mini product development buck.

<comment><USER21> Strategically, I think they would be better off going with AMD on the Mini. It's total units are tiny and they can leverage this into even better deals from Intel.

<comment><USER14> I'm not sure if AMD could offer Thunderbolt, which might be a deal breaker for Apple.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> iPado Pro with iOS11, is pretty much the computing devices Apple has always envisioned for. So it is time to let iPad be that devices, and start treating Mac as workstation / production, professional uses.

Everything in the Mac lineup is a joke. Macbook Pro with Touchbar, we already had a discussion on that few days ago, forcing a $200 component on every Macbook Pro. Keyboard, even the so called improved Version 2.0 in Macbook Pro 2017 still sucks. And it is very VERY common to have keys not working properly. Just ask any friends working in Apple Retails.

iMac Pro, lets wait and see because I could not figure out, without a change of design how they managed to cool down 500W TDP within the same space. And the things is, I have this suspicious they could always have done it, but decided not to.

Mac Mini, It hasn't been downgraded for 3 years when they last took the Quad Core option out.

All Desktop Mac, still have HDD as default. No amount of CPU Core, GB of Memory is going to get you the speed improvement of SSD. And Apple talks about caring for User Experience?

</comment><comment><USER23> One thing they could do to extend the life of the existing hardware would be to cost reduce the middle tier $699 2.6GHz 8GB RAM Mac Mini to the $499 price point. I have to think that at least some of the memory and drive components have dropped in price over the past 3 years.

</comment><comment><USER24> Mac Mini i7 (2012) makes an awesome VMWare ESXi box - I run a few VMs on mine (cheaper than cloud for a test environment)

</comment><comment><USER25> I'd be shocked if there wasn't a Mini refresh this next event...

</comment><comment><USER26> Does it?</comment>