59% of the 'Tuna' Americans Eat Is Not Tuna - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/59-of-the-tuna-americans-eat-is-not-tuna/273410/ <comment><USER2> The shocking depletion of the world's fisheries over the last century and a half is one of the great tragedies of our modern civilization. We're causing mass extinction on a level we have to go back to the fossil record to see. We're eating fish that was previously thrown back or used as bait, often just giving it bogus pretty names (like Chilean Sea Bass).

I live in the US for now but having grown up in Europe I understand the situation there better. Nationalistic arguments resting on protecting 'traditional' livelihoods and preserving centuries old fishing villages have been used to continue subsidizing an industry with much larger collective fishing fleet than is possibly justifiable. Of course nowhere in this "tradition" argument is it ever acknowledged that traditionally we used vastly less sophisticated machinery and mechanisms so catches per fisherman were obviously dramatically lower - and we were STILL depleting stocks.

This is no different to any of our resource extraction industries sadly. Give rights to extract resource. Rights holders make tons of money. Use money to pervert political process and buy protection against breaches of law and regulation. Deplete resource. Move on.

<comment><USER3> I attribute the tragedy to the fact we farm the soil for ages, grow cattle for as much as long, but fishing was always considered cheap, given the sheer size of the ocean (we're far past the regeneration point), when in fact, fish has the biggest potential of all for intensive farming.

Fish farming already is a booming industry in some countries, and the tendency is to double in the next decade. There's a lot to improve yet, specially on small scale and associated with hydroponics, only now we are seeing research into that. If you want to invest, this a good area to put your money.

<comment><USER4> It's worth noting that, in the United States a at least, there is a strong anti-farmed fish movement coming from the environmentalist community. They like to point out all of the damage that fish farming does to a local ecology without acknowledging the much greater damage that catching wild fish does. As a result, there is a lot of hesitation among some consumers to purchase farmed fish.

<comment><USER5> The objection is basically this: the desirable fish to farm are mostly meat- eaters. To feed these fish, large quantities of random fish are driftnetted and fed to the fish farms. That is, fish farms are converting 10 or 100 pounds of bait fish into one pound of marketable fish. This method of farming fish WORSENS the ocean depletion problem, it doesn't improve it. It would actually be better to simply fish for tuna directly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This headline is _preposterously_ misleading.

This is a link to the actual study. Page 16 is relevant.

[http://oceana.org/sites/default/files/reports/National_Seafo...](http://oceana.org/sites/default/files/reports/National_Seafood_Fraud_Testing_Results_FINAL.pdf)

The group tested 114 tuna samples. Of those 114, 66 were of a fish that the vendor was calling "White Tuna". Have you ever eaten something called White Tuna? Neither have I. It's a fairly unpopular sushi fish sold sparsely around the country.

Why does it make up more half the sample, you might ask? Well, it turns out there is essentially no such thing as White Tuna. Hence 94% of the samples are "mislabeled." [the authors assert that a certain type of albacore tuna sold in a certain form counts as 'white tuna', which accounts for the 6% of correct labels] If your goal was to achieve a result which shows lots of mislabeling, a good strategy would be to considerably oversample 'white tuna'.

They took 48 more samples of tuna other than 'white tuna'. Notably, that didn't include anything from a can, which is by a WIDE margin what most americans think of when they think of tuna. Nevertheless, of those 48, they determined that five were "mislabeled" due to the tuna actually being a substituted variety of tuna. In other words, all 48 were 'tuna', though perhaps not 'albacore' or the specific type it claimed to be.

So where does that leave us? More than half of the samples were of a fish known to be commonly "mislabeled" by standard industry practice, and the rest of the mislabelings were substitutions of one type of tuna for another. In no universe does that lead to the conclusion that 59% of the tuna Americans consume is not actually "tuna". I would venture that no one reading this comment has _ever_ eaten a piece of tuna that was not actually from a tuna fish (though _maybe_ they lied about which specific variety you were eating).

This organization has a history of running biased studies and then churning out ridiculous charts and headlines to push on local newspapers. They ran with a version of this story in New York City around a year ago. It's nonsense. Eat your tuna and enjoy it.

<comment><USER7> Terrible headline for sure. But in sushi restaurants, this mislabeling is actually very common. More often than not, escolar is labeled white tuna. You know it is escolar when it's a pure white and opaque fish with a buttery taste, which although mislabeled, is not at all unpleasant. Rumor has it that of you eat too much, it also gives you diarrhea but fortunately I've never had enough of it to test that theory.

As for real white tuna, there is such a thing and it's called albacore. Aside from being found prevalently in cans, it can also be had at many finer sushi restaurants and it's delicious. White but lightly translucent and often served with a bit of horseradish.

<comment><USER8> I followed the link about the "olestra fish". You have to eat over 6 ounces. You eat two days worth of meat in one meal, you get what's coming to ya'.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Perhaps, given the dire state of tuna supplies and consumers who apparently cannot tell the difference without resorting to testing, we should be _encouraging_ mislabeling.

Insisting on a particular rare fish while another more common fish satisfies you just as well is exceptionally silly. Of course it is near impossible to convince consumers of this, but business owners have apparently figured out a solution themselves.

(To keep it safe, the FDA could create lists of fish that may be substituted and labelled as each other.)

<comment><USER10> Around Chicago we have problems with Asian carp making their way closer and closer to the great lakes. I've often suggested they be renamed 'river tuna' and our problems will be solved.

<comment><USER11> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_carp#As_food](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_carp#As_food)

Kentucky Tuna.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I always kind of knew that the $5 tuna roll couldn't possibly have come from a $100k fish transported from market in an amored car.

I can't tell the difference. To me tuna is a taste, not a species. For the poor overfished creature that is tuna, maybe it's better this way.

<comment><USER13> You do realize how big that $100k fish is right?

<comment><USER12> I believe the fish in question is the bluefin which averages 500lbs or so. Apparently they can sell for much more (even 10x more) than $100k! Even if every pound of the fish became sushi and there was zero markup from the ($100k) fish market price, I figure each piece of sushi should still cost around $12. My feeling is it should probably be more like $36.

I just figured the "tuna" at most sushi joints was one of the lesser species of tuna like albacore or something else entirely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> White Tuna has always been Escolar. There is no such thing as a "white" tuna. Even albacore is not white until cooked. Saying that white tuna is not tuna, is the same as saying Chilean Sea Bass is not a bass. While true, there is no conspiracy.

<comment><USER15> > Escolar's wax ester content can cause keriorrhea (Greek: flow of wax), > gempylotoxism or gempylid fish poisoning.[4] Keriorrhea is similar to > diarrhea, only the body will expel yellowish-orange drops of oil instead of > liquid bowel movements.

w. t. f. O.O

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Actual study, for those interested:

[http://oceana.org/sites/default/files/reports/National_Seafo...](http://oceana.org/sites/default/files/reports/National_Seafood_Fraud_Testing_Results_FINAL.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER17> I've always wondered - at what level is a person contributing to the Tuna shortage? I rarely eat fish to begin with, have yet to go to a sushi place. But I do have a can of Tuna on Pizza about every month. Is that already too much?

<comment><USER18> Perhaps it depends if it was farm raised

</comment></comment><comment> mh- now, now.. surely this is just splitting hairs.

 _84% of fish samples labeled "white tuna" were actually escolar, a fish that can cause prolonged, uncontrollable, oily anal leakage._

oh.

<comment><USER19> Yeah - but it doesn't unless you it quite a good bit of it. And of course it's super yummy. It would of course be better if it was just labeled as escolar (as it is at my local sushi joint)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I've never had tuna that looked like escolar, assuming the comparison pictures in a Google image search are accurate:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=escolar+vs+tuna&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=escolar+vs+tuna&tbm=isch)

Particularly this image:

[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7tZTQT- lBpA/TJARkX5NXeI/AAAAAAAAAg...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7tZTQT- lBpA/TJARkX5NXeI/AAAAAAAAAgM/BQFgu08j5Fs/s1600/escolar-vs-albacore.jpg)

If I received sushi or maki that claimed to be tuna but looked like a ghost I would send it back. Is the use of escolar as tuna a regional thing, or is some escolar a pink/red color?

</comment><comment><USER21> For an article waxing on about the mislabeling of tuna, it should do a better job not generalizing facts about different species of tuna with all tuna.

> given the dire state of the world's tuna supply

Only some species are overfished. Albacore tuna, for example, are not threatened at all. In fact there's no limit in the US on how many you can catch (non-commercially).

</comment><comment><USER22> This article is misleading.

My family has been part of the seafood business in North America for almost 30 years, and I definitely have the ability to distinguish between fish species just by looking at flesh.

This article makes no attempt to distinguish between what sushi bars label as 'tuna' and 'white tuna'.

Order 'tuna' and you're almost always going to get tuna. Order 'white tuna' and you're almost always going to get escolar/albacore.

</comment><comment><USER23> so when i order tuna in a sushi restaurant, what am i actually getting? does this apply to dark red tuna as well as the lighter varieties?

on a similar subject, this is an excellent (and depressing) fresh air episode: [http://www.npr.org/2010/07/19/128512740/paul-greenberg- the-f...](http://www.npr.org/2010/07/19/128512740/paul-greenberg-the-future- of-wild-fish)

</comment><comment><USER24> So my dad grew up in Bangladesh, a country of rivers with a strong tradition of eating fish. He told me that when he was growing up, there were hundreds of different kinds of fish in the market and even the local river. Today, as a result of run off from intensive agriculture, that variety is almost totally gone.

</comment><comment><USER25> i knew it! i stopped eating white tuna a while back because i felt it tastes weird, and went to yellowfin instead, but recently i went back to germany and had a tonno pizza and realized just how much different it tastes

</comment><comment><USER15> As long as the fish is not dangerous (often not the case here apparently), I'm okay with not eating tuna. It's just a real shame they try to fool diners. It's time for the FDA to get involved.

</comment><comment><USER26> Quite ironic that this was stated by "The Atlantic". I hope at least for Omakase they use the real thing.

</comment><comment><USER27> wait so , if I go buy tuna sushi roll from my grocery store in boston for 8$, what's the probability it's actually tuna

<comment><USER9> Probably around 82%. I imagine grocery store sushi has more in common with the rest of grocery store fish than it does with sushi shop sushi. The grocery store probably buys the fish for both from the same chain of suppliers.

<comment><USER28> I'm less convinced - sushi outside of a restaurant context, from the similarity in presentation style and selection in the DC area at least, seems to be outsourced to daily deliveries from regional suppliers

<comment><USER9> Hmm, I wasn't aware of that, I thought they usually just had the butcher or somebody throw it together in house. That was just a guess though.

<comment><USER27> well it's sold in the butcher/fresh fish section of the store, so I'm pretty sure it's prepared on site using whatever is used to supply their normal tuna. at least I hope.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> HACKER news != hacker NEWS how did this get to the top people?

I agree this is important but I already saw it my feed and is not hacker related

</comment><comment><USER30> I've defended all kinds of threads from the "Why is this on HN?" whiners. I'm having a a little trouble with how the choice between yellow waxy buildup in your asscheeks and mercury dementia is an issue. Is sushi that big a Silicon Valley thing?</comment>


Physicists believe they can create matter from colliding photons - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/may/18/matter-light-photons-electrons-positrons <comment><USER2> The timeline:

        1934: This is predicted
        1997: This is done http://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/16/science/scientists-use-light-to-create-particles.html
        2014: We will "demonstrate the feat within the next 12 months"
        2015: Didn't bother

<comment><USER3> The 1997 experiment is slightly different, as it involves electrons instead of just photons. See [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwinger_limit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwinger_limit):

"Photon–photon scattering and other effects of nonlinear optics in vacuum is an active area of experimental research, with current or planned technology beginning to approach the Schwinger limit.[5] It has already been observed through inelastic channels in SLAC Experiment 144.[6][7] However, the direct effects in elastic scattering have not been observed. As of 2012, the best constraint on the elastic photon–photon scattering cross section belongs to PVLAS, which reports an upper limit far above the level predicted by the Standard Model.[8] Proposals have been made to measure elastic light-by-light scattering using the strong electromagnetic fields of the hadrons collided at the LHC.[9] Observation of a cross section larger than that predicted by the Standard Model could signify new physics such as axions, the search of which is the primary goal of PVLAS and several similar experiments. Even the planned, funded ELI–Ultra High Field Facility, which will study light at the intensity frontier, is likely to remain well below the Schwinger limit[10] although it may still be possible to observe some nonlinear optical effects.[11] Such an experiment, in which ultra-intense light causes pair production, has been described in the popular media as creating a "hernia" in spacetime.[12]"

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Has anyone ever wondered why the C^2 in E=MC^2 I'm sure it wasn't chosen at random just because a large constant was needed, it must fall out of some other physics equations.

But still, what does that mean? What does the transmutation of energy into mass or visa versa have to do with the universal speed limit?

I am always struck by the inexplicable power of mathematics to describe the physical laws of the universe, in often simple equations like this. It doesn't have to be that way as far as we know.

<comment><USER5> No one has answered your question. There is no answer really to your question. At least, not to the level that you are asking. Why is c^2 in that equation? What does it mean? We don't know. It's a deeper level of understanding that we haven't achieved.

Another similar question would be why does pi come up in everything? There's a lot of physics where pi comes up and we don't know why.

<comment><USER6> The original question has perfectly satisfying explanations accessible to anyone who knows algebra and is willing to spend a few weeks studying special relativity. cynicalkane above provides a great intuitive summary.

Likewise, generally speaking, when pi comes up in physics equations it is a geometric factor, either having something to do with the bona fide geometry of the system (e.g. the capacitance of a sphere) or with normalizing some relevant probability distributions. Name one example where we struggle to understand where pi comes from in physics formula!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This article appears to be 1,5 years old. So at least the 1 year deadline was missed.

</comment><comment><USER8> If we could trap those positrons somehow in large numbers...

Antimatter production?

<comment><USER9> There are much easier ways to make positrons.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is exciting. Not sure how they will go from electron-positron creation to protons which needs quarks, but according to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_creation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_creation)

Summary: Matter creation is the conversion of massless particles into one or more massive particles. Since all known massless particles are bosons and the most familiar massive particles are fermions, usually what is considered is the process which converts two bosons (e.g. photons) into two fermions (e.g., an electron–positron pair). This process is known as pair production.

So technically, it is a matter creation.

<comment><USER11> In theory all you have to do to get protons is crank up the energy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Can anyone explain when and where the Higgs enters the reaction? That is the most interesting for me, since we don't have anti Higgs.

<comment><USER13> I thought that the Higgs Boson was its own antiparticle, like the photon? I am not sure.

<comment><USER14> I will preface this by saying my understanding of particle physics is very basic...

Yes, that is correct. The Higgs particle is also extremely unstable and decays into two photons almost immediately.

<comment><USER15> Wait, why does the field-quantum for inertia decay into the field-quantum for light?

<comment><USER13> I am not at all sure, but my guess is that:

the results must be electrically neutral in total

the results must have the same total spin (0) (this might require that all the resulting things have spin 0 but I don't know)

the results must conserve a variety of other quantities,

I think maybe pairs photons are (one of?) the only things that meets these requirements?

I'm not sure. I'm mainly guessing.

But, if proton collisions can cause Higgs Bosons, I think maybe the idea is that so long as all the quantities are conserved(charge, mass, color, spin, momentum, etc. etc.), any particles with small enough energy can be the result maybe?

I don't know if that is the idea. I'm just guessing based on how things are described wrt protons, but I might be misinterpreting things.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I imagine "matter" as commonly understood would contain at least electrons and protons, but they would just be making electrons and positrons. Can we make protons/neutrons out of light too?

<comment><USER17> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positronium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positronium)

<comment><USER18> cool but there are no quarks involved..(?)

<comment><USER17> Who says there has to be?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> So was light first or matter?

Was there early radiation (light != visible light only) which created matter. H -> He -> Stars. Or matter preexisted?

<comment><USER20> In the beginning, there was nothing. But it was a very active kind of nothing that, because of the Uncertainty Principle, allowed bits of energy to be borrowed from nothing, leaving behind holes as a sort of IOU.

The likelihood of a virtual particle pair arising was inversely proportional to the energy difference across the pair. Since you need a fair bit of energy to do anything interesting, nothing happened for a very long time.

However, since there was an abundance of very long time, eventually two of the photons borrowed out of the vacuum with sufficient energy interacted in such a way as to give rise to matter.

Multiply that very long time by all of the matter in the universe (a very long time, squared; lucky we had lots of it) and we have beaches and sunsets.

The only remaining question is how all that matter was gathered into the singularity that gave rise to our present universe about 13.8 (or whatever) By ago. Maybe it accreted out of the original matter over another very long time.

Or maybe the idea that when you run the expansion of the universe backward you get a singularity is wrong. Maybe matter arising out of the vacuum disappears back where it came from when you run the picture backwards and it only looks like the universe started 13.8 By ago because that's how far out the event horizon sits. Maybe the cosmic background is the signature of the vacuum- derived pairs creating matter. Maybe this experiment will demonstrate an alternative origin for the cosmic background.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Are we going to be able to materialize dinner soon?

<comment><USER22> 1 lb of food would take about 10 megatons of TNT of energy. I'm not sure you'd want whatever that device is sitting on everyone's kitchen counter.

<comment> rm_-rf_slash I imagine if you had that kind of Star Trek replicator technology it would be more feasible to use existing matter and rearrange it as desired.

<comment><USER22> Plus, a starship is already strapped to a huge energy source so the additional risk is probably minimal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Didn't we know that ever since E=mc² ?

<comment><USER24> They knew that it was possible in theory, as the article mentioned. This experiment will be a concrete demonstration of that theory.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> If this can be made practical at any scale, I think the most exciting applications will be in long-range space drives. Although it sounds as though immense amounts of energy are needed, not needing to take along matter to eject in order to move is a game changer for space exploration.

<comment><USER26> I think you can use photon engines in the first place.

<comment><USER11> Yep, you'd be significantly better off just shining the laser behind you.</comment></comment></comment>


Artificial Intelligence - <AUTHOR> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/artificial-intelligence/ <comment><USER2> Excellent! Thanks for posting ;)

The bibliography at the end is highly recommended for anyone wishing to build an AI bookshelf.</comment>


Ask HN: Linux laptop on a budget? - <AUTHOR> I need a Linux laptop on a budget. Doesn't need to be fancy. Perhaps supporting 8gb RAM (or more) and the ability to put in an SSD. Working Wifi and Ethernet and sleep (close the lid and wake it again later). I am doing platform agnostic c++ development. I can't afford another Macbook Pro.
I have a Thinkpad X240, 8gb RAM and a 256 SSD. However Debian and Ubuntu fail to recognize the trackpad, Wifi, sleep, etc properly. Try as I might.
Any recommendations? <comment><USER2> I use a Thinkpad X220 too.

There's an entire community around getting your Thinkpad the way you want.

One time I had to replace the wireless card and instead of going to a technician or Best Buy I asked in the IRC channel (##ibmthinkpad on Freenode); the people in there gave me instructions and the exact Amazon links for what I needed. It saved me time and money.

\- [http://x220.mcdonnelltech.com/ubuntu/](http://x220.mcdonnelltech.com/ubuntu/)

\- [https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/4lwc01/challenge_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/4lwc01/challenge_okay_ive_now_got_an_x220_and_want_to/)

Edit: added some links and IRC channel.

</comment><comment><USER3> After spending EUR 1,800 on my 10th and last Apple laptop--the new MacBook Pro which after much frustration I sold for EUR 1,000--I bought the Cube Thinker.

Horrible keyboard, but 8GB RAM, 256GB SSD.

Most importantly AMAZING hidpi/retina touchscreen. Same exact screen as the Surface Book: 3000x2000 (almost 4k), 3:2 so that you get 25% more vertical space.

Ubuntu works great with 4.16 kernel (coming out soon, RC2 works perfectly). Even the touchscreen works.

$500 on GearBest.

<comment><USER4> How horrible is horrible

<comment><USER3> Yes but the MacBook Pro was horribler.

<comment><USER3> (sorry, I read "horrible is horrible").

I use it daily to program, so it's not unusable. It's definitely its worse feature, though.

Keys feel bad, and sometimes get stuck and don't immediately respond (specially frustrating with the shift key). I've seen some reviews where they literally came off from the heat caused by the CPU.

I got used to it and now I don't even notice it and mine didn't come off, but at the beginning it was very annoying. I just wish they put a better keyboard since the rest of the hardware is so awesome for the price...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I am typing this on a Lenovo X220. This laptop has an i5 with 8G of RAM (going to add 8G more to get to 16) and a 250G SSD (it came with 4G of RAM and a 250G hd but I replaced the 4G stick with an 8G DDR3 stick and the hd with ssd). It is almost as good as anything on the market out there - barring retina display. I would suggest this without hesitation.

<comment><AUTHOR> What distro are you using? Did it work out of the box or did you have to tweak conf files to get it working?

<comment><USER5> Ubuntu, but I have tried Tumbleweed, Arch and OpenBSD on these laptops and no issues whatsoever. Works OOTB for Ubuntu. For OpenbSD, I had to dl the "non- free" firmware for Wifi but em0 (ethernet) works out of the box

<comment><AUTHOR> I tried 16.04.3 and it failed and after I did get it to install nothing worked.

I then tried 17.10.1 and it worked! All the hardware works even the backlit keyboard!

Thank you so much for letting me know you had success!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I can't say much about thinkpads as the last one I owned I ran linux/bds on but it was in 1999.

If you want to go $200 or less in some cases get a cheap chrome book that allows you upgrade the SSD size. Then you can create a dual boot with your version of linux.

<comment><AUTHOR> I had thought about this route. My issue is there are _so_ many chromebooks to choose from. If you have thoughts on a decent one I'd be happy to listen :-)

<comment><USER6> some of the Acer chromebooks have the option to upgrade the RAM or SSD. I would consider one of these, but you will have to search if the one you are interested has this feature.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> my 2cents is look for a Dell. I have been using a FullHD Dell XPS lx502 for over 4 years now as my main system, and both Slackware or Ubuntu ( to stay compatible with my bank... ) ran fine. Easy to upgrade, replaced RAM to 16Gb, HD to SSD and wifi miniboard to 802.11ac over the years, and still running strong, although optimus video is a _real_ pain and lately the loudspeakers are getting funny...

</comment><comment><USER8> It seems to me you already have a good laptop. What version of Debian/Ubuntu are you using? kernel?

<comment><AUTHOR> Debian 9 or Ubuntu 16.04.03

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> T420 with Debian 9, everything works out of the box.

</comment><comment><USER10> XPS 13 9360. I use it and it works flawlessly.</comment>


New Apple maps app under fire from users - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-19659736 <comment><USER2> Since the passing of Steve Jobs there has understandably been a lot of speculation about what will happen to Apple given Steve's laser-like focus on user experience above almost all else. Some self-proclaimed "power users" did of course rail against the Apple ecosystem but like most things Apple does (did?) it was right most of the time for most users.

I've been an avid iPhone user since the iPhone 4 and have bought every iPad so far. iOS 6 may mark a turning point to me such that the 4S that I have now may well be my last iPhone. My phone for me is probably beyond anything else a way of getting places (ie maps). Even more than phone calls, SMS or the Internet.

I sympathize with the position that Apple wants to control the entire experience but I really am dumbfounded that they've sacrificed user experience to do it. So much so that I don't think I want to update to iOS 6.

When compared to Android, the one remaining pillar for the iPhone for me is battery life. The 4S simply trumps any Android I've used or witnessed to date. I typically have to charge my phone only every 2-3 days. The Droid I have (which admittedly was a terrible phone) is lucky to last a day. The Galaxy S3 is better but still...

I look forward to the next Android phone running out-of-the-box 4.1 (or whatever the latest release is at that point).

<comment><USER3> Apple can't unilaterally decide to use Google Maps or not. You do not know the conditions Google set. My guess is that Apple was backed into a corner and Google wouldn't give them vector maps or turn-by-turn navigation.

Building a good maps service is miles outside of Apple's core competency, so this is all very sad – but at the same time no surprise at all.

(Mind you, all this at best explains the bad maps experience, it does not excuse it.)

<comment><USER4> It's a product of Apple's inability to form stable B2B relationships - "adult relationships" if one enjoys snarky analogies. Contrast this to the way in which Microsoft has recently addressed Google's strength in Maps. They found someone with mutual interests. [http://searchengineland.com/microsoft-and- nokia-present-unif...](http://searchengineland.com/microsoft-and-nokia- present-unified-maps-on-pc-mobile-113133)

Google and Apple have been unfriending each other since Schmidt resigned from Apple's board three years ago. A jilted Apple is again "looking and feeling" for reasons to drag the _ex_ who cheated on them into court. Heck, in Samsung, they are even treating one of their current "friends with benefits" like an _ex_.

TomTom's response, "We are a paid escort service, you can find us in the phonebook."

<comment><USER5> Regardless of the drama involved, the fact is that Google is competing against Apple, and maps are a significant enabler of that competition. Apple has to cut off Google in this case.

<comment><USER4> Imagine TomTom when they got a call from Apple. It's not as if TomTom aren't facing competition from Google, only more so because the dedicated GPS hardware they sell is becoming increasingly marginalized by smartphones. They've got to have been thinking, "This could big," while imagining the benefits from being a partner in the data development for Apple's map app.

But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise.

Apple needs to move on. It was Google that did the cutting off.

<comment><USER6> "But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise."

I disagree. Even if they gave them a high quality data set, that set is going to be obsolete within a year (let's say). Now Apple can either choose to keep obsolete data (which will definitely impact customers) or buy updated data from TomTom.

<comment><USER4> The scenario you propose doesn't provide a strategic benefit to TomTom because it does not address TomTom's long term disadvantage relative to Google and other companies in the mobile navigation space. Google's and Apple's mobile mapping services run on devices which can communicate data back to their services.

TomTom's problem is that their devices only communicate one direction. A partnership with Apple could have allowed TomTom to collect realtime data directly in the same way as their major competitors.

In the next twelve months, Apple will probably have collected more useful data than TomTom in many respects. That doesn't mean they will be successful in using it to their advantage, but it does mean that there is little reason for Apple to purchase a new dataset.

<comment><USER6> But it would mean that Apple would have to rely on users to report any new road construction or road name changes. Just because the phone could communicate back, doesn't mean the user will or that the data will be correct.

Maybe my creativity is limited but I just don't see how Apple being able to collect data would help with getting updated maps. I think it could help with their directions since they know the most commonly taken routes and could actually even time people's routes to find which are truly the quickest, but I don't know how it would help with updating maps from road changes and the like.

<comment><USER4> I suspect that Google can detect road construction using data mining techniques...it's the sort of phenomenon that is relevant to mapping only because of its effect on movement.

<comment><USER6> I apologize for not being more clear, but when I said road construction I didn't mean just fixing of roads but adding new roads. In order to have those new roads in your system you need to update your data set.

I have fallen victim to this. I bought a new used car (it's new to me but a 2007 model) that has built in navigation. Between the date of manufacture of the nav disk and current date, an interstate was added/modified near me. Now everytime I go by that area my GPS says I'm in the middle of a field. In reality, I can't see a customer filing a ticket with Apple to get that road in the GPS system. Even if they do, Apple would most likely need coordinates. This construction of new roads is what TomTom has a temporary strategic advantage over Apple (only temporary since Apple could get a department together to monitor all new roads).

<comment><USER7> Have you seen the iOS6 Maps problems-reporting UI? It's simple, it's fast, it's _right in the place_ where you encountered the bug.

The other thing you ignore is that people want their local data to be correct in the maps they use, for practical reasons. I too reported new construction around my home everywhere I could, because it's, among other things, in my best interest to have my address easy to find (by guests or postal drivers, for example) on any GPS out there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Just add maps.google.com to your home screen. I was doing that even before the new iOS. It's better than the new Maps app or the old one. Bicycle directions!

Also, FYI, the previous Maps app did use Google Maps, but the app itself was written by Apple. I once was at a Google event and asked a Googler who works on Maps about it. They have been frustrated for years that they could not update that app when they added new features to Google Maps. I expect within a short time we will see an iOS Google Maps that is on par with the Android app.

<comment><USER9> _I expect within a short time we will see an iOS Google Maps that is on par with the Android app._

I wonder if Google will do that. Surely they want people to use Android, and "better maps on Android", would be a nice selling point.

<comment><USER10> No. Google want people using their services. They don't care if people are using Android or not - Android is simply a platform upon which they can get users to use their services. That is their only vested interest.

<comment><USER11> Right Android exist because Google feared that people could be locked out of Google services. Google services and access to them, is their first priority.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I've been on IOS 6 since a few days after the beta came out and I can tell you that the new Maps is nearly worthless, especially if you've entered a decent amount of data into Google Maps. Yes the navigation sucks, yes there's other huge basic issues, but the killer for me is that I have over 270 starred places in Google Maps and without being able to get to that data, Apple's new option is nearly useless.

I don't want to gloss over how much the basics suck on this app, they suck profoundly. The bookmarks is the worst loss though. I have an iPhone for work but I'm very glad I no longer am under a personal iPhone contract because with the lack of features in IOS 6, I don't see how I'd ever go back to using an Apple phone full time.

<comment><USER12> It's a KILLER atlas though, way better than Google Earth on iPad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's just Apple's turn. It has been said many times, "It's an early version of an application _Company X_ copied from another company. I'm sure _Company X_ will improve it to a workable but inferior product in future versions."

The first debacle with their Maps app (not crediting OpenStreetMap.org) gave me the feeling that Apple doesn't really have experience with software and data at the scale upon which they are currently operating. Sometimes it looks as if they are using too many interns to write important code.

What is a concern is that there seems to be no grasp of the difference in responsibility a developer must recognize between GarageBand and a mapping application. Sure it is irritating if one's remix of _Call me Maybe_ doesn't come out quite the intended way. But an appendicitis sufferer may die if they wind up five miles from the hospital.

<comment><USER7> Correction: OSM data was used in iPhoto (and on OS X, I think?), not maps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I like the new Maps app. I know it's objectively horrible and am not disputing any of the ironclad cases everyone else has made against it. All I'm saying is this: I punched in directions to Lao Sze Chuan in Chinatown last night, driving from Oak Park. I threw my phone on the passenger seat and drove. The sensible route it plotted for me was unworkable due to traffic, so I detoured through UIC campus. The moment I diverged from its route, without me doing anything, it replotted a new route, and then a series of new routes as I ignored those directions, until I got to Roosevelt and followed its directions the rest of the way there --- which were much better than the route I would have taken.

Obviously, I fall into a specific class of Maps user:

* Using directions primarily when I'm driving

* In a major city

But that's a big class of users and, so far, Maps is better for that use case. The Maps app from 10.5 was unusable for driving.

<comment><USER14> _But that's a big class of users and, so far, Maps is better for that use case. The Maps app from 10.5 was unusable for driving._

Thank you, you've written a more useful summary review of the new maps app than anything else I've read lately.

I've tried driving with the previous Maps app - with a borrowed iPhone, I don't yet own one - and was really surprised at how unusable it was. I was left thinking that not a single person on that project could have attempted to drive on their own with it, otherwise how else could it be so bad?

 _rant over_

<comment><USER15> I also gave the driving directions a shot, the voice cues are great, the visuals look fantastic and really awesome. Also when you deviate it doesnt give you some "ROBOT RECALCULATING" voice, instead she smoothly cuts over to the next set of directions.

The new 3d looks good, the map tiles need work but they just look DIFFERENT and not necessarily "worse" to me. This is in SOMA San Francisco.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I understand the experience may not be ideal (I haven't tried it out yet, either), but take a moment to reflect on what they actually did: in a little over a year Apple completely replaced one of iOS's core technologies, one that relies on a mind-bogglingly complex and astoundingly huge data set, and is now pushing this out to millions of devices.

Most of us know what it is like to have to launch something. Launching something is never easy. We frequently talk about the MVP here on HN as well. Apple has done the difficult work of launching their MVP. Now they can make it better. It may never be as good as Google Maps, but that doesn't mean it will always be terrible.

<comment><USER17> >in a little over a year

That's just a made up timeline. They may have been working on a maps replacement for years.

<comment><USER18> His point is still pretty valid. How long would it take you to develop and roll out the maps application at the quality it is now, for a MVP?

<comment><USER19> The logic behind creating an MVP doesn't really make sense when the market for the product isn't competitive.

Apple didn't offer their mapping solution as an option in the App Store to judge interest; they forced anyone who buys new or upgrades for any reason to use it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> There are localization issues as well. Some place names in Turkey appear to be transferred over from legacy windows-1254 code page (e.g. Avcılar displayed as Avcýlar) Some have replacement letters for certain characters (dotless i, ş, ç, ğ). For example, "Sık orman" (dense forest) became "Sik orman" (penis forest).

Overall (at least in Turkey) the legends appear to come from an old, low quality source.

<comment><USER21> Here in Japan, I managed to spot a place with a Hangul (Korean) label! God knows how that happened...

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> You know what else sucks on the iPhone? The notes app - That's why I use Evernote. And the tasks app - that's why I use Clear. And the mail app - that's why I use Gmail. And iBooks - which is why I use the Kindle app.

Point is, you can download an app that works better for you if you're not happy with Maps anymore, just like you could with all of the other built in Apple software. I think Apple really needed to control their own destiny with the Maps software, and most non-geeks are probably not going to notice that their Maps app is getting it's data from somewhere else now. They probably didn't realize it was coming from Google Maps in the first place.

<comment><USER23> Mobile Safari is slow and crashy, good thing I can replace it with… waitaminute. As far as I know there's no decent replacement for Maps either; it remains to be seen if Apple will permit a direct replacement. If Google doesn't release one themselves, it could be problematic for a third party to create an app using Google's map API - that's centered around use in web apps, although their "Maps for Business" might be suited. Still, it's a hell of a risk to take. (but possibly with a handsome reward)

<comment> k-mcgrady You can replace Safari with Opera, Chrome, Dolphin, or several others. You can't set them as default but you can replace them. There are plenty of map alternatives too - Open Street Map, TomTom, Google Earth, etc.

<comment><USER24> Those alternative browsers either use the Safari rendering engine or render offline, so are significantly crippled compared to something like Firefox for Android.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Around me (SE Michigan) it's a huge improvement over both the old Maps app and any of the turn-by-turn iOS alternatives I've tried. Using Siri and saying "directions to..." any local business I can think of brings up turn-by-turn directions in a snap, and it looks great. Smooth animations, great fit and finish on the UI. I suspect that their European maps are of lower quality and/or the writer cherry-picked some entertaining but not terribly representative examples.

<comment><USER26> The maps around me in Brisbane, Australia seem pretty good, but I only spent five minutes playing around. All the searches I tried (some for street addresses, some for POIs) got the right address.

So far it seems no worse around the city than Google Maps but only time will tell if that's the case.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Poor old Tom Tom is completely on the back foot and trying to distance itself as far as it can without throwing a super major partner under the bus.

<comment><USER28> None of us will know the complete depth of their relationship, but TomTom shouldn't be so removed from this PR. What they should have said is "Although Apple provides additional layers of functionality on top of our map data, we've reached out to Apple to help support in fixing these issues."

That sounds a lot nicer than "it's not our problem"...

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I am reminded once again at how much it takes to put together a "maps" experience like Google Maps does. That Apple's initial version sucks rocks isn't particularly surprising, there is a lot of integration and a lot of data, the world is a really really big place. Its very hard for humans to curate it too.

Next up, Apple will get their own direct source of satellite imagery, then they will drive/fly around major towns getting direct information about local restrictions, then they will build a system which does nothing more than cross-connect and correlate GIS data from various sources and test for sanity. Perhaps they will create a crowd sourced tool for directly feeding map errors into the system to triage the worst areas.

Its a big undertaking.

</comment><comment><USER30> As a long-term Apple user/fan, I'm both incredibly disappointed and intensely optimistic with this change.

I've been using iOS6 since the first beta and saw the backlash coming. I think "Street View" is Google Maps' killer feature and no amount of "3D View" is going to replace the ability to virtually drive your route (or see the storefront, the turn you need to make, etc.).

On the other hand, Google has a habit of releasing amazingly disruptive products (maps, gmail, etc.) and then the pace of innovation of each app slows dramatically. What was the last "innovation" gmail did? Priority inbox? Buying Sparrow?

I'm optimistic this is the start of an arms race in the mapping area (Apple: please tackle email next); this needed to occur sooner rather than later. We don't know the circumstances of the switch (it seems equally likely that Google precipitated the change as Apple did) but given Apple's knack for taking a MVP and continually, doggedly improving it, I think the future is bright for iOS Mapping.

<comment><USER31> Do you think Apple would have any chance in an arms race over Search with Google? If the answer is no, why do you think Apple has any chance in Maps?

<comment><USER30> On the desktop? No.

On iOS devices? Absolutely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Not sure what the hell they were expecting to happen. You don't take an existing, working, mature, and proven solution and then replace it en masse with something unproven and untested.

This particular bit of sour grapes over Google is going to bite them in the arse.

</comment><comment><USER33> The greatest disappointment (for me) comes from the fact that free turn-by- turn navigation is not available for iPhone 4. That particular feature made me happy about Apple's switch from Google's to their own solution. I couldn't care less for Siri, flyover maps or panorama (seriously, that one is iPhone 4S+ too), but navigation? That's a deal breaker. If Google won't provide this with their app I won't stick to iOS when my contract ends.

</comment><comment><USER34> You can't make an omelette ... It'll be interesting to see the pace of development of this vs Google's inevitable maps app.

The mapping must be updated OTA so won't require IOS refreshes to improve the quality. But for now this app is like the stereotypical bimbo, quite pretty to look at but also pretty useless.

</comment><comment><USER35> The new maps is way off. I took 4 pictures last night while fishing. When I looked at the gps data of where I caught the fish one was on land and three others were 4 miles off as they had me on the other end of the lake I was fishing on. Apple really messed up with this change.

</comment><comment><USER36> Another annoying loss; no pedestrian or cycle routes, as far as I can see.

As I'm mostly a pedestrian -- I have a car, but live in the centre of a dense city where parking is a nightmare, so I walk rather than driving if at all possible -- from my point of view, this is a major regression.

<comment><USER37> There are pedestrian routes _in some cities_ , but not all. I only know this because I was in San Francisco last week and I actually got offered them, whereas in London I'm SOL.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> The article ends on a strange note, essentially a guy complaining that his Google SEO doesn't carry over to the new Apple app?

<comment><USER39> "Hey Joe, thanks for that article you submitted this morning. Listen, it's a bit too technical, could you add something, you know, more emotional?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> According to Gruber and Rafer Apple seems to have a plan : for this plan to work however, iOS users must keep using the inferior Apple maps and Google must stay away from giving them a chance to continue to use their own ones - that will make quality of Apple maps go up and Google maps go down - they will meet in 18 months.

Gotta admire people's willingness to stretch here :) But seriously I think Google will just release a Maps app for iOS sooner or later. They've done that with most of their apps - it may not be as good and functional as Android one but it doesn't have to - the bar has been lowered.

</comment><comment><USER41> The big problem I see is that Apple effectively removed street view from the iPhone as it's not even available in the mobile safari version of Google Maps.

I don't mind that they are working on their own maps, but I can't believe they couldn't have licensed Google maps for at least another year until their solution matured or offered some sort of advantage. The first iPhone brought the best mobile maps experience. The latest iPhone brings the worst.

To me, the real test is whether Apple will allow a map application from Google to coexist on the iPhone. I'm hoping they do. It's the right thing to do.

<comment><USER42> The issue is we don't know _why_ they stopped licensing, although if you follow the scuttlebutt Google hiked prices of mapping, followed by Apple announcing their intent to ship their own maps, followed by Google dropping prices of mapping. Might have been an unsuccessful negotiation, Google might have made high demands, Apple might have been cads. No one knows, what we do know is the licensing agreement expired and they couldn't arrange a new one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I've been using the maps and find them MUCH improved in the car. I wish I could turn off the voice prompts, but it is very usable and has got me where I'm going reliably.

</comment><comment><USER44> I am using IOS 6 beta since last few months in India, it just gives the message directions could not be found even for a locations 100 meters away.

</comment><comment><USER45> Another plus for Microsoft/Nokia.

Windows Phone with Nokia Maps / Nokia Drive is actually _really_ good and it's not about to disappear overnight.

</comment><comment><USER46> Apple's Maps have been good for me so far in the north east United States. I greatly prefer the UI of Apple's Maps to Navigation on Android which is way too cluttered IMO. I find it easier to get things done with Apple Maps especially with the way turn-by-turn is integrated with the pop-over notifications and lock-screen integration.

</comment><comment><USER47> 1) Go to maps.google.com in Safari on your iPhone or iPad

2) Hit Yes when it wants to know your location

3) Hit Yes when it pesters you to add it as an icon (for once, it's not bothering me). The icon is snazzy.

4) Enjoy your almost-as-good-as-the-app-was mobile Google Maps experience. Complete with transit directions. But, alas, no Street View.

<comment><USER48> Permit me a small moment of pride at my choice of life-partner.

I asked my wife if I could upgrade her phone to the new OS, but that the map app has changed for the worse and 'You may not like it... How often do you use it?' 'A few times a week'.

She's not a geek whatsoever. Has never installed an app and barely touched a preferences setting. Loves listening to the podcasts I subscribe to for her and tell her which app to use.

So I hand her the 'upgraded' phone and ask her to check out the new map app. She does a search for the office she's working in tomorrow and it pinmarks the completely wrong end of the street.

I felt bad about 'upgrading' her phone, but a minute later she hands it back to me.

She's moved the Apple map app onto the second screen and replaced it with a weblink to the Google maps site.

Clever girl ;]

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> As a developer this kind of update makes me happy since it might result in Apple giving up some of its mobile phone market share to Microsoft and Google. I would much rather develop in Java or C#, instead either struggle through Objective C or use a third party developer tool to avoid doing so. Although, as an iPhone user it makes me sad. The UX with the iPhone has been amazing. I chose to use this phone even though I dislike all that is apple, just because to me when it came to my user experience it was leaps and bounds ahead of any other. Now that one of my most used apps has been pushed out temporarily it kind of makes me nervous. I have even heard who have applied iOS6, have lost all of their photos, luckily since I rely on a few jailbroken apps had not updated.

</comment><comment><USER50> Disappointed with the iOS 6 maps ? Why don't you give OpenStreetMap a try ? <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IOS> \- it won't give you pretty satellite imagery, but maybe you'll like the maps.

<comment><USER12> In many places OSM is the most accurate mapping system and overall it's very good, but my problem is, has anyone yet built an app worth a crap on top of it? One with turn by turn, etc?

<comment><USER51> Yes they have, so the problem may be one of findability, or marketing of these apps.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> is this particularly bad in the uk? there's now a guardian article too - [http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/sep/20/apple- maps-...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/sep/20/apple-maps- ios6-station-tower)

<comment><USER34> No, just people piling on, and probably the Guardian using the BBC as a news source.

<comment><USER37> Actually, I'll disagree with you there and say that I have found the Apple map tiles to be pretty poor in London. Paddington Station, one of the main commuter rail hubs in the city, is missing entirely (the Underground station got added in recently, but the mainline station remains invisible), and the geo-coder is considerably poorer than Google's.

I develop iOS apps for a living, and I really like the platform. I've also been using the beta for about three months, and _frequently_ I've had to pull my Galaxy S2 out to use the Android maps app. Most people won't have that luxury.

<comment><USER53> I'm looking at the map tile for London Paddington Rail Station on my iOS6 iPad right now. It's clearly there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> It seems like such an innocuous thing, but Maps can truly make or break a phone decision. There is no question that Android has a considerably better user experience when it comes to Maps given the lead that Google has. That being said, Apple certainly has the cash and time to devote to this and a better competitor (and more effort in OSM) means that we all win in a way. So it will be interesting to watch it play out.

One minor gripe with turn-by-turn. If I'm playing music/podcasts, I would have expected the volume to mute on the other media when driving directions are announced. Not so, it just turns into a garbled mess.

The compression on Siri kind of sucks too.

<comment> k-mcgrady >> "One minor gripe with turn-by-turn. If I'm playing music/podcasts, I would have expected the volume to mute on the other media when driving directions are announced. Not so, it just turns into a garbled mess."

I don't really sue turn-by-turn but from what I understand it's supposed to lower the volume of other media playing when announcing directions and then bring the volume back when done. Might be something you can change in the settings.

<comment><USER30> It does this on mine (I haven't done turn-by-turn on iOS6 final, but when I was on the betas, it performed as expected)

<comment><USER54> Odd, it doesn't for me (either in the betas or final version). Maybe there is a setting somewhere...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> Said it in another thread. maps.google.com in iOS. Bookmark to home screen.

To the people talking about this is a sign of Steve Jobs being gone. I'm sure he had his hand in wanting to get away from Google Maps. These types of things were still part of his plan. AppleTV (the none hobby version) is part of his plan. We haven't seen that. There is still a trail that Steve laid down we are walking on. It's more 5-10 years from now I imagine that will lack the touch. Maybe it is fading. It's still there though. imho.

</comment><comment><USER56> In my mind, this will be the first major test of Tim Cook as a CEO. This is not "I get a bad signal if I hold the phone the wrong way". This is "my iPhone drove us to the wrong hospital so I wasn't able to say goodbye to my grandfather".

Problem is, I don't see what they are supposed to do except throwing massive amounts of money and manpower at the problem - but even that will take a long time to fix the major issues that are in iOS6 Maps.

It will be very interesting to see how they react to this problem.

</comment><comment><USER57> I find the new maps app really good, one of the best driving direction apps I've seen. It is an improvement over waze in UI and the enhance backgrounding is awesome.

Maybe not as feature rich as some of the alternatives, but what do you expect in a v1? They will iterate, though the yearly releases means it will take time but it will get there. In the mean time the app store provides a lot of options for users to replace _lost_ functionality.

</comment><comment><USER58> Apple probably underestimated the complexity of creating and providing useful maps. I read an article recently that explained how much effort Google puts into their maps. From what I understand, every map tile has been manually reviewed and reworked based on satellite images and the data from the Google street view cars. Google is years ahead of Apple with this. It'll take a while until Apple's maps are par with Google's.

</comment><comment><USER59> Does anyone remember when Mapquest and then Google Maps first started? Bad directions, etc. was the norm.

The only thing that is wrong with Apple doing this is that they didn't release as "beta" and make a big deal about how users can turn on the "beta" switch to test the cool new things, or the "alpha" switch and get shit that might break their phone but gives them superpowers no other geek has.

</comment><comment><USER34> I wonder what the behind-the-scenes truth of this is? Apple must have known that their mapping solution wasn't ready for release.

Perhaps Google forced their hand or Google pulled the plug knowing that Apple would dump them eventually but weren't ready to do so quite yet. If so, then don't expect Google to offer a maps app for some time yet because it is to their advantage to let Apple stew.

</comment><comment><USER60> The Bing iOS app has transit and good mapping features. I'm surprised folks aren't using that as an alternative.

</comment><comment><USER61> Is the experience any better when utilizing Siri as an interface? If you ask Siri for directions instead of relying on the built-in search functionality, is it any better or would both Siri and iOS maps query the same database?

Siri --> Address --> iOS nav via street address

</comment><comment><USER62> Assuming Google releases an iOS Maps app, I'd much prefer them to do that and make regular updates than leave it to Apple just 3 times a year. Having said that, the fact they didn't include an option just to save $1b a year is beyond absurd.

</comment><comment><USER63> from what i've seen, the real issue is probably the text parsing algorithms need work. I tried a few addresses - about 70% were correct. the ones that weren't just seemed like the algorithm wasn't recognizing town, state, etc

</comment><comment><USER64> >Users also reported missing local places, such as schools, or strange locations. Another screenshot showed a furniture museum that was apparently located in a river.

From a twitter account called @fake_iOS6maps ? Seriously, BBC?

<comment><USER65> The irony here is that you didn't bother to check what the fake_ bit means. It's like fakesteve, the images aren't faked, the account is not an official iOS6 account.

<comment><USER66> Why wouldn't the person use "SteveSays"/"iOS6Maps_Gaffes" or something along those lines?

<comment><USER65> Because of FakeSteve.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> _Satellite images of various locations, particularly in Scotland, are obscured by cloud._

\--Satalite images obcured by _clouds_. TomTom=WTF.

</comment><comment><USER68> >Here in Manhattan, where I live, basic search by building names is profoundly degraded in Apple's maps search. "Bloomberg" doesn't find the Bloomberg Tower; on Google Maps it's the first result. Searching for its address "731 Lexington Avenue" yields that address on Lexington Avenue in Brooklyn. It's fine to think that perhaps I wanted the address in Bed-Stuy, but even appending "NY, NY" or "Manhattan, NY" still yields the Brooklyn address. Google maps has none of these comprehension issues. I understand this is due to Apple partnering with Tom Tom, whose maps are considered to be lower in quality than other players like Nokia, but I'm not informed enough to say with certainty whether that's the case.

<http://dashes.com/anil/images/lexington-map.jpg>

Source: [http://dashes.com/anil/2012/09/who-benefits-from- ios6s-crapp...](http://dashes.com/anil/2012/09/who-benefits-from-ios6s-crappy- maps.html)

<comment><USER69> Noticed this today. I wanted to get the cross-street of an address on Broadway.

First, I get an address on Broadway in Bayonne. Okay, almost plausible, since I was in Hoboken. I append 'New York, NY' to the address. Now I get an address in Brooklyn. Completely ridiculous. I append 'Manhattan, NY' to the address. Still Brooklyn.

At that point I added Google Maps to my home screen. If someone posts a clear guide to jailbreaking iOS 6 and re-adding the native Google Maps app, I'll probably do it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> It's a one-dot-oh release. So that is the level of expectation that I am giving it.

<comment><USER65> It's been deployed globally on tens of millions of devices _removing_ the existing solution.

That's the level of expectation that I'm giving it.

<comment><USER71> In contrast with Android where Google can remove most of the apps and majority of users stuck with 2.x versions won't even know.

On the serious note, I guess this sucks most for US users. In other parts of the world transit data was not available anyway, so nobody cares.

<comment><USER65> > In contrast with Android where Google can remove most of the apps and > majority of users stuck with 2.x versions won't even know.

This isn't the place for childish digs at competitors. Apple removed maps and replaced it with an inferior version for millions of their customers. As a result, the poor quality of these maps has made front page news.

Trying to invoke "Android isn't up to date" is childish and uninformed. Maps is distributed via the _Play Store_. You are wrong in every substantial respect.

<comment><USER71> Not sure about childish, but regarding uninformed: there is some information for you: <http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html>

To compare this to the iOS6 (released just a couple of days ago) is left as an exercise for you :)

<comment><USER65> I'm aware of the point he is making. Maps is an app distributed through the Play Store. It is not distributed by installing a specific version of the OS.

At least understand the platform you are criticising before assuming it operates in the same restrictive way as others.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Building a Game Boy Link Cable Breakout Board - <AUTHOR> http://obskyr.io/lanette/devlog/making-a-game-boy-link-cable-breakout-board/ <comment><USER2> Great article.

I keep meaning to get started on my Game Boy Printer emulator so I can download pictures from a GB Camera. My plan was to just hack an eBay link cable in half and solder them to the board, but this is much cleaner and way classier.

</comment><comment><USER3> I have some fond ass memories of Pokemon on the Game Boy but sadly never kept playing after Gold and Silver. But man what a glorious time it was to grow up in the 90s, walk around with your gameboy and link cable, spot another goober kid with his gameboy (and, presumably [read: 100% absolutely] a pokemon game) and trade some monsters. That brief interaction with another kid trading and bonding over a game is what makes me keep one eye on Nintendo's prospect for a pokemon phone game today.

<comment><USER4> "That brief interaction with another kid trading and bonding over a game is what makes me keep one eye on Nintendo's prospect for a pokemon phone game today."

The thing about Pokémon these days (on the 3DS) is that the entire experience can be done online. That makes it far more efficient for kids and adults to just sit at home and optimize the experience instead of being social in- person. Some folks still meet up to play, but the majority have no interest in actually meeting people to play/trade when they can just go online instead.

<comment><USER3> I assumed as much, I knew 3DS was online-ready but quite frankly there are somethings online gaming cannot replicate. Call me old fashioned.... (wanna come over and play some co-op? Bring your controller.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > "Eagle isn't a very good piece of software"

> _Proceeds to make a great quality device_

<comment><USER6> A simple breakout board with routings hand made are hardly considered a device.</comment></comment>


Show HN: I'm Open-Sourcing My Node.js App - <AUTHOR> http://www.pesfandiar.com/blog/2016/02/06/open-sourcing-my-nodejs-app <comment><USER2> Can you share the number of people who actually came , signed up , signed up for trial period etc .

And you have mentioned "When I got a good conversion rate on the fake landing page" ... What were the numbers which lead you believe that conversion rate is good ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Fewer than a dozen actually signed up for the service, but I didn't spend much on paid traffic anyway.

I had 3-4% of a few hundred visitors press the fake "get started" button. I only relied on forums and HN comments that said 1-5% is acceptable.

<comment><USER3> Thanks, that was a good read. I plan on checking out the source too just to learn.

Perhaps not relevant anymore but here's my take.

My company uses a similar-ish service for our after hours emergency number (AnswerConnect). We pay $149/mo for the service and like $20/mo to the phone company for our own toll free number plus any minutes.

The only reason we pay the phone company is because we have our own toll free number and forward it to the answering service. It costs a little more but if we want to switch we're good and it's our number.

A couple of things that jumped out at me about your service:

\- Website looks good to me although the video felt a little "slow." I personally wouldn't have the video start automatically but who knows.

\- The per minute pricing would be the deal breaker for me. I'd be happier to pay $100/mo or whatever and not have to worry too much about minutes. Perhaps 1,000 minute package or something.

\- If I were doing the copy for it, I'd do something like "cloud-based" phone system, or something like that. For non-tech folks it might take a little bit to figure out what you're offering.

\- I can't tell if an actual human answers the phone. Is that on the customer to answer and route, is it an IVR, or is it someone that works for you?

Anyway, good stuff!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Thanks for taking time to share your experience!</comment>


How I Pitched Dave McClure In The Wrong Place At The Wrong Time - <AUTHOR> http://marcin.is/post/46281218323/how-i-pitched-dave-mcclure-in-the-wrong-place-at-the

<comment><USER2> When I first learned who Dave McClure was and saw his flippant attitude and penchant for profanity, I was not a fan. I thought he seemed extremely unprofessional and was making other startup founders look bad. But over time as I learned more about him, I've definitely softened on him and now greatly respect him, for the following reasons:

First off, he's incredibly open about the fact that he could never fit in at a normal corporation due to his "eccentric ways", and by doing so empowers others who are going through the same thing. He doesn't necessarily encourage others to be like him, but he does (implicitly) encourage people to "Be Yourself" and to not be afraid to acknowledge that you may be different from the people around you and if so find a way of life that suits you better.

And most importantly, he has only the best of intentions - He truly wants young, up-and-coming founders to succeed and not have to go through the bullshit that he had to go through, and that seems to be his driving force in life.

Dave McClure naturally creates a certain type of culture in everything he does by way of his unique personality. If you don't like it that's cool, but in the big picture I think it's a good thing and makes Silicon Valley a more diverse and interesting community.

</comment><comment><USER3> Let me get this straight.

The would-be pitcher said, "May I pitch you?" "Sure, in 15 min." Then during that 15 min in an interview that the would-be pitcher had no way to follow, Dave McClure said not to pitch him. Then he came back to listen to the pitch and it went horribly because Dave didn't want to be pitched.

If so then the fault here is all Dave's. If you don't want to be pitched, say so up front. If you said that you're willing to be pitched, show up for it mentally.

<comment><USER4> No, it went horribly because Dave listened and they were invited for a follow- up. Sounds like it went pretty well.

The starstruck tone of the article is a little embarrassing, but hey, Dave's pretty awesome.

It's not so much that Dave can't be pitched. He is trying to intelligently route pitching traffic through his expertise network, and you are probably wasting his time and not being diligent and respectful if you don't follow that advice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'll say it. We hold up some incredibly deficient people as idols in the tech world.

<comment><USER6> That's ad hominem and unnecessary and downright offensive. You should judge Dave McClure on his acts as an investor or advisor. HackerNews is meant to be a constructive forum, and this comment was anything but.

<comment><USER5> It would be an ad hominem if I were in an argument with Dave and instead of listening to his points attacked him personally. In this case I'm talking about needing to see the forest for the trees. I'll gladly judge him on his acts a person in the position of being a gatekeeper to a world people build lives hopes and dreams on. You don't have to be a dick to be a good investor and advisor.

<comment><USER6> My concern is that you're calling someone a "dick" on a public forum. I believe that's unfounded and unnecessary.

Dave is actually a very nice and caring person when you meet and talk to him, his public persona be as it may.

<comment><USER7> The same sort of behavior from Linus has been bothering me as well. Linus may hold the keys to something many people want access to, but that doesn't justify his recent behavior. When you are in a position of authority, you should hold yourself to a higher standard.

When 500 Startups didn't have the influence it does now, Dave McClure's schtick may have made sense as a marketing ploy. But the days of needing over the top rhetoric to get attention are over.

Compare Dave McClure with Jack Dorsey. Who would rather work with and who sets a better example for the technology industry to follow?

<comment><USER8> I disagree with you, but I also disagree with those who would disagree with you. To put it shortly--I think Linus has every right to be an asshole to people who want to contribute to "his" project.

And I think we have every right to be mad at him for it.

And I think he has every right to tell us to piss off for being mad at him for it.

And I think we have every right to be mad at him for _that_.

Isn't free society wonderful? :)

<comment><USER7> Linus has a right to act however he wants. That doesn't make it right, and frankly it doesn't give me a higher opinion of him. We've seen thread after thread in the past couple weeks about the "locker room" mentality of the industry, but from my seat it seems like a lot of people are condoning it.

<comment><USER8> I don't know anything about "the industry", since I go out of my way to avoid working in "the industry"--but I want "going to work" to be another way to say "going to go goof off with my friends in a way that makes us money somehow." And I _like it_ when my friends act like assholes; it's amusing, because I know them well enough to know it's not really all that serious.

That might not work very well when your coworkers aren't your friends--but really, _that's_ the problem with that, not anything to do with objectively objectionable behavior.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Reading this makes me question why people are begging to work with Dave McClure.

<comment><AUTHOR> He's a wise guy and he's a lot of fun. Honestly - I'm not surprised that people want to work with him.

<comment><USER7> wise guy [1] noun Informal. a cocksure, conceited, and often insolent person

Sounds about right.

[1]<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wiseguy>

<comment><AUTHOR> Crap. That wasn't my intention. Didn't know about this collocation in english :D

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "Pitching me directly for 30 seconds is a completely fucking ineffectual way to get my attention... and usually destined to fail miserably."

Hilarious quote, but also incredibly honest. Great stuff.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Glad you like it. I think there's a lesson for entrepreneurs all over the world in it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Pitch by not pitching, seriously some of the best advice anyone could give a startup. I too get very sick of pitches when really all i want to do is meet smart people, if they turn out to be interesting, then lets hear the pitch.....but dont start with it!

<comment><USER11> I learned this lesson the hard way. It's amazing how much more interest you can garner just by treating the other person like a human being rather than a means to an end. Unfortunately, it is easy for a startup founder to fall into this trap.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> On the "reading the bubble tea leaves" front: what does it say about the startup world when even full time investors are sick of being pitched?

I'm watching this all from the outside, in a stable salaried job outside the bay area. But it just feels like the end of a road -- the community is eating itself. Making stuff people want is a distant memory at this point.

<comment><USER2> The reason Dave McClure is sick of being pitched is not because he's jaded or tired of doing what he does.

It's because it's not humanly possible for a single investor, be it Dave McClure or a YC partner, to process the sheer volume of pitches that come their way. There needs to be some sort of filtering mechanism, and endorsements/recommendations are one way of doing that.

As Dave mentioned in the video embedded in the article, he WILL give his full attention to a founder IF they have already met with 500 Startups portfolio companies (i.e. people he trusts and respects) and proven to them that they are legit.

People like Dave McClure (and pg) have thousands of people vying for his extremely limited time, and so giving his full attention to every pitch that comes his way would be a huge disservice to the other startups that actually deserve it i.e. have actually done their homework, put time in to prove themselves, and committed to forming long-term relationships with people in his community vs. those looking for a quick and easy shortcut to funding and networking.

<comment><USER12> That's an explanation for the proximate cause of "do not fucking pitch me". And that part I understand just fine.

My point was deeper: once the environment has reached a point where the important investors have "thousands of people vying for [their] extremely limited time", to the extent that "it's not humanly possible [...] to process the sheer volume of pitches", then it seems like the startup environment has jumped the shark. It's a machine now -- generate as many launches as possible, and pitch them to as many investors as possible. The focus is about funding -- not survival (does anyone remember "ramen profitable"? Yeah, we don't hear that so much anymore), and not products.

Back in 2005, it didn't seem that way at all...

<comment><USER2> Touche, but is this hyper growth in startups necessarily a bad thing, or just a bump in the road and a bottleneck to be overcome?

Despite how mainstream tech entrepreneurship has become, and despite how many founders are not in it for the right reasons, I still believe (or hope) it's mostly noise and the best products and founders will always rise to the top. The US (and the world) still needs more entrepreneurship to stay competitive, though perhaps not in its current model/form, and we haven't yet reached the point of diminishing returns in my opinion.

This is a tangent to your main point, but TechCrunch had a pretty good piece on how YC tries to tackle this problem: <http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/02/yc- y-combinator-scaling/>

<comment><USER12> Oh, I agree that entrepreneurship is important, and if a thousand iterations on "mobile social sharing app with nice typography" is the price to pay, then it's worth paying.

But as someone who watched the end of the 90's boom, this feels the same way. I don't have numbers, but do any of us really believe there is enough future revenue in mobile social sharing apps with nice typography to justify the absolutely insane funding environment?

I don't either. And there's a hard landing ahead.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I think Mark Suster has a similar mindset (with similar bluntless albeit not as hard-hitting perhaps) -- there's no way he can hear everyone pitch or have a coffee with every startuper, but if you take the time to get an intro through a well-trusted contact that will move you further down the "conversion funnel" to getting a meeting. Sure Dave McClure or Mark Suster or any other investor might be right in front of you, but you also don't want to reek of desperation when you make your move.

</comment><comment><USER14> Speaking of wrong place/wrong time, was funny how a well known investor recently asked in a bathroom during an intermission for evaluations of companies :). That violates bathroom rules I think!

</comment><comment><USER15> Next time: "Hi!, I'm xyz, you may remember me from such startups as ..."

<comment><AUTHOR> He actually knew who I am (at least a little bit), but you're right, that's a necessary start.

<comment><USER16> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC7TVRU5nho>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I can tell you for sure, this story didn't take place in the public library! Because Dave McClure can barely read and write!

</comment><comment><USER18> Random observation, the embedded youtube video is sized in such a way to clip off the controls that let you full screen it or watch it on youtube or change resolution. I don't know if that is intentional or not but its annoying on a smaller screen device that its not easily zoomable to full screen.

</comment><comment><USER19> Kindly shut the fuck up.

<comment><USER20> I admire your consequence in replying :)</comment></comment>


MATTER: First article out today for $0.99 - <AUTHOR> http://readmatter.com/ The Kickstarter funded project for high-quality journalism, released their first article today. <comment><USER2> Very interesting model. I hope it works out.

<comment><AUTHOR> We'll see. I do agree we're entering on a phase where people want to curate the over-information they're exposed to. I don't know if this will be the way to go, though. It's just a matter of time.

<comment><USER2> Just need to keep making enough sales to continue creating articles so your userbase increases in size. Probably a good idea to promote a newsletter to signup to for updates (possibly offer a weekly and monthly version).

<comment><AUTHOR> Do you think it's possible to sustain this model w/out advertising? I'd love if they can pull that off.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Beautiful PCBs and diamonds - <AUTHOR> http://www.boldport.com/blog/2015/11/25/haute-circuits <comment><USER2> Thanks @dc352 for posting to my work!</comment>


Russian engineers plan to extend Internet to space - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.rnw.nl/medianetwork/russian-scientists-plan-to-extend-internet-to-space

<comment><USER2> Here's Vint Cerf's memo regarding an Interplanetary Internet [pdf]: <http://www.ipnsig.org/reports/memo-ipnrg-arch-00.pdf>

<comment><USER3> Hasn't this been operational in mars satellites for a while now?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> How is this plan different from existing constellations like Iridium or Globastar?

<comment><USER5> looks incredibly ambitious, like Iridium :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Why didn't Google think of that?!</comment>


KDE releases Amarok 2.6 music player - <AUTHOR> http://amarok.kde.org/en/releases/2.6

<comment><USER2> Have they caught up with amarok 1.4 yet?

No, seriously. I switched operating systems so I could carry on using amarok 1.4 for a few months longer. When that became impossible I stopped listening to music.

I don't feel I'm asking for so much. TTA support, CUE support, last.fm scrobbling, a decent weighted random dynamic playlist, and the ability to queue tracks, then repopulate the dynamic playlist without disturbing the queue. Is amarok 2 there yet? I know clementine isn't, and won't be as long as it relies on gstreamer (which gives its FFMPEG plugin, which can't play TTAs, a higher priority than its TTA plugin, which can)

(I also love the old amarok behaviour where you could type in a search and it would play only things matching the search, and then when you get rid of the search it continues through your whole playlist, but I can understand why the developers would treat that as a bug)

(Site is down, so apologies if the answers are obvious)</comment>


That's What She Said: Double Entendre Identification (2011) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://www.aclweb.org/anthology/P11-2016 <comment><USER2> Looked interesting, but it was sooo long.

<comment><USER3> It's only 7 pages. People often exaggerate such things online.

<comment><USER4> ...

<comment><USER5> I think he didn't

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> someone please tell me that "open set" has the topological meaning here

<comment><USER7> I was just considering this - is the topology on sexually explicit nouns the discrete topology, or indiscrete?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I am not looking forward for automated TWSS bots :-(

<comment><USER9> [https://github.com/bvandenbos/twss](https://github.com/bvandenbos/twss) from 5 years ago

<comment><USER8> Need to put this in Jenkins to send an email based on commit messages.

<comment><USER10> If that's in a work environment, update your resume first.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I find "as the bishop said to the actress" to be a much classier version of "that's what she said", plus it can go both ways (as the actress said to the bishop...)

</comment><comment><USER12> The title makes this a lot less interesting for our female readers, I'd guess. Please consider other people that don't share your humour when creating/sharing titles.

<comment><USER13> Despite your concern, however valid, it did not deter the female _author_ of the paper.

Honestly, anyone who is offended by the identification of this paper by a common related phrase, probably does not have a career in science or software that somebody didn't give them out of pity.</comment></comment>


Time to bury Kubernetes. The world is moving upstack. -Our new app - <AUTHOR> https://uffizzi.cloud <comment> billy-the-coder I get it. This is for all the times I didn't want to go through all the set up to just to run a few containers. Backed by K8s gives me confidence in it unlike something more hobby like heroku

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> A big part of my problem with AWS is not the services, so much as setting up the accounts/roles/permissions etc. and then visibility into my spend. How are you handling RBAC?

<comment><AUTHOR> I once saw how GCP was using AI to help you manage your IAM. We went the opposite direction. You get a personal account which you own and then you can invite contributors at the project level. Projects and the environments within are completely isolated. You and all your contributors can choose which Private Dockerhub repos to connect and deploy from.

Org accounts are coming

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I was going to check out what it's about, but got totally distracted by all the popups and animations on the page and didn't read a thing. Anyhow, good luck.

<comment><USER4> Agree. Remove all animations. As a user/reader I don't need a 1 second animation when clicking through pages.

<comment><AUTHOR> appreciate the feedback

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I see that Uffizzi is built atop Kubernetes. Why bury?

<comment><AUTHOR> It is. K8s is an incredible tool but the expertise and time commitment to leverage it are too costly for many indie hackers, startups, and small businesses. You can reap the benefits without having to touch it. You can set up your Dev, Staging, and Production in a few minutes - pull your image from Dockerhub and then docker push all your updates directly into your cloud environment.

<comment><USER6> Ah, now I understand "bury" Kubernetes. I like this idea and agree on expertise. I want to use Kubernetes but I'm a developer, not a DevOps engineer. I also like Docker :)

<comment><USER7> AppOps is for developers on Kubernetes, so you can own your code full life cycle. DevOps now builds and maintains the shared pieces (logmon i.e.) and supports developers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Seems interesting. Just signed up.</comment>


Reasons why Google+ is interesting UI - <AUTHOR> http://bokardo.com/archives/5-reasons-why-google-is-interesting-ui/ <comment><USER2> In case anyone else is having a hard time reading this cause the site is bogged down:

The Google+ launch has been very positive for Google so far. I think it's interesting from a UI standpoint for several reasons:

1\. It puts Google on the design map. 2\. Part of a bigger redesign. 3\. Andy Hertfeld is lead Designer. 4\. Increasing rivalry with Facebook. 5\. Strong win for UX Research

<comment><USER3> Here's the cached version: [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://bokardo.com/archives/5-reasons- why-google-is-interesting-ui/&hl=en&strip=1)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I hope to see the same kind of polished and clean look and feel arrive to Android 4.0.

</comment><comment><USER5> The design looks nice, clean and simple, but it isn't very functional. In that respect, I would consider it a failure. If a layman like me can find glaring weaknesses, why can't the people working on it do so? Budget, deadline or incompetence?

The only one I can remotely justify is deadline since the client is Google (infinite money, needs social bad, supposedly lots of smart people), but since a redesign is so much work, wouldn't you expect them want to get it right the first time?

<comment><USER6> Do you think maybe you could explain why it isn't functional?

<comment><USER5> In the new Gmail there is a huge amount of unused space, even in the "Dense" view. This results in less emails on the screen at one time in the Inbox (I use Priority Inbox so maybe it works great in regular mode, but it should work in both). The might have been trying to avoid information overload but they achieved information underload.

Now the compose and search buttons are enormous and the only colored elements on the page. Eyes are drawn to them in a way that each competes for attention and eventually you end up at the Gmail logo. Great for Google branding(? I already use Gmail), not so good for me because it hurts my eyes and distracts me.

Next, with everything being white with a few grey highlights, it is unclear where each section of the page begins and ends. Some things start to scroll while others stay static with no indication of what will change. The browser scrollbar takes up the whole size of the browser window but only part of the screen scrolls some of the time.

Just a few of the issues I had.

<comment><USER7> The article is about Google+ not GMail. Although, admittedly, they are related, I feel that you've accidentally compared apples and oranges.

<comment><USER5> Well it did mentioned that "'Design' is now at Google" and the designs are being unified. All Google products are being +ified.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> _Andy Hertfeld is lead Designer_

I believe his last name is Hertzfeld.

</comment><comment><USER9> Will definitely read when the site is back to normal, i like Joshua Porter's stuff. The article by the ex Wave developer on HN is a good read in the mean time.

</comment><comment><USER10> Hacker News has become an unpaid arm of Google's marketing department. Mainstream users don't care about Google+, if they've even heard of it.

<comment><USER11> Does PG hold GOOG shares?

<comment><USER12> As far as I've seen he hasn't been posting any of these Google+ articles.

<comment><USER11> I was kidding.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Website development please help and see if my website is okay - <AUTHOR> http://www.stoveandgo.co.uk <comment><USER2> On a mobile browser, the branding is really difficult to read. The copyright could also use some work.

</comment><comment><USER3> Labels on the navbar and dropdown menu are way too small.</comment>


Chrome Marketing - nice - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTjHCCU2E4c&feature=youtu.be

<comment><USER2> Google has made some great advertising lately. I hope they keep it up.</comment>


Megaupload was our collective library Of Alexandria - <AUTHOR> http://nerdr.com/megaupload-burning-the-library-of-alexandria/

<comment><USER2> Absurd. When the library of Alexandria burnt, knowledge and culture was lost, never to be recovered.

When mega upload shut down, it just meant you had to switch which service you used. I seriously doubt there was a single bit of knowledge or culture that was on megaupload that still doesn't exist today on some hard drive somewhere.

Yeah, shutting down mega upload raises some pretty serious questions. But the library of Alexandria it ain't.

</comment><comment><USER3> _It also stored our collective culture of the last 2 DECADES._

Umm, no. I don't think MegaUpload was that big...

<comment><AUTHOR> It had textfiles from the old BBS days together with SNES roms. Thats 2 decades if not more. Together with "old" movies (Ghostbusters 1 for example). Trust me, that rabbit hole went deep.

<comment><USER4> Yeah now that Megaupload's gone how will we ever watch Ghostbusters or play SNES roms?

<comment><AUTHOR> They were of course, just examples.

Consider if Youtube were to shut down overnight. Yes we'd lose a lot of generally available content (hop on Ebay for a copy of Ghostbusters), but we'd also lose a lot of amazing content that you can't buy on Ebay or get anywhere else. It's THAT stuff that's a sad loss.

Then the question is, if it's not commercially available, does it still have any value at all? I argue yes. I've learnt more from free files and videos some random user has uploaded than I have from commercial products. Once gone, I can never access those resources ever again. Ever. Because it's bits and bytes, once erased, it's gone forever.

<comment><USER3> You're overestimating the size of MegaUpload.

Most people had never even heard of it, and if you want to store something valuable permanently then it should be obvious to put it in multiple locations.

<comment><AUTHOR> Megaupload had 4% of world internet traffic...

<comment><USER3> No. It had a _reach_ of 4% which is quite a different thing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Reach of 4%? What would that even mean?

<comment><USER3> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reach_(advertising)>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaupload#Statistics>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm going to have to buy stock in kleenex tissues if this is how this generation is going to whine. We'll be seeing shutdowns of fertile environments a lot in the future.

</comment><comment><USER6> And in more positive news, people might have learnt a valuable lesson about redundant storage of valuable data.</comment>


How a 69 second video saved us money, reached 1000s and led to 250% growth - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/included-coworking-updates/how-a-69-second-video-saved-us-money-reached-1000s-led-to-250-growth-eed5cd81b797 <comment><USER2> thanks for sharing :)</comment>