Show HN: The reinvention of the company profile - <AUTHOR> http://companies.thedailymuse.com/

<comment><USER2> The reinvention is to feature exclusively pictures of attractive female employees?

<comment><USER3> The Daily Muse's About page [1] describes the website "community of women who believe that kicking ass and taking names is all part of the job". One could surmise that they are not showing female employees in the company photos in the hopes that male applicants will find them attractive.

[1]: <http://www.thedailymuse.com/about/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Cool demo.

Couple points of feedback:

-the word description is bigger than the explore button. I don't think having the word description there is even necessary - it's obvious you're describing each of those companies in that section. I'd make the explore button a little flashier.

-navigation is confusing. Maybe make each of the images open up in a light box instead of creating a new page?

-The layout of all of the elements is a bit confusing - I feel like I'm on an infographic without any method to the madness. You clearly have different sections in here, office pictures, employee testimonials, available jobs, etc. Some sort of order might be helpful, even if it's just a tabbed interface. Might be worth trying out.

Hope that helps - I really like it. The guys at InternMatch are doing a similar thing for companies (<http://www.internmatch.com>), but they seem focused on college students vs. active full time job seekers.

</comment><comment><USER5> I dig the design. It's fun to get an "at a glance" comparison of a bunch of companies.

Re, content, though: Ugh, giant, open, noisy, productivity-killing spaces. No bueno. A few places _not_ to work.

<comment><USER6> Just get some circumaural headphones and the problem is solved!

Very nice site btw. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> is there a reason why it seems women almost exclusively work in management* type roles and not production roles? It could be that this website is bias with who it listed and the roles they're in, but assuming it isn't and this is a representative sample: why are women in tech startups always management?

*management of people and things, positions I saw listed: account manager, executive assitant, marketing director, vp of communications, product manager, director of marketing, public relations, never developer or engineer or designer.

<comment><USER8> In my humble Experience, and I don't posit any particular mechanism, women, on the whole (with exceptions) excell in areas that befit a good manager. Such areas may include understanding intuitively others' needs, knowing how to create a productive, energizing or otherwise desirable environment, understanding and responding to the respective energy levels of others and being aware and dealing with, in an organized manner, the gestalt. Whether this is an atrefact of culture, genetics, my limited exposure or any mix, I do not know, but in my life this has proven strongly to be the case and women I have spoken to have attested to it. Were I starting a company, I would look specifically for people with the aforementioned qualities and I imagine I would likely find them most often during my search in women. This, I hope, does not produce in any way the undue perpetuation of harmful discrimination. But all this to say, it is not a mere coincidence -- it happens that way for a reason.

<comment><USER9> " _Such areas may include understanding intuitively others' needs, knowing how to create a productive, energizing or otherwise desirable environment, understanding and responding to the respective energy levels of others and being aware and dealing with, in an organized manner, the gestalt._ "

Let's watch as HN votes up blatant sexism! Why don't you finish up your analysis with how women can't code because they think emotionally instead of logically? And if you're going to spout sexist nonsense, at least have the courage to avoid couching it in weasel terms like "In my humble Experience" and "I do not know, but in my life this has proven strongly to be the case" and hiding behind "women you know".

Community support for the above post is a great example of the hostile environments that cause less women participate in tech. Sexism as exemplified above should be crushed on sight. Not reinforced with up-votes or ignored.

<comment><USER10> Care to offer your analysis of the parent comment's question in terms that you don't deem sexist? Msutherl offered anecdotes of his experience, and I don't think that their statements were offensive unless you think females should be completely immune to all attempt at generalisation.

<comment><USER9> > _I don't think that their statements were offensive unless you think females > should be completely immune to all attempt at generalisation._

Generalizing women is sexism the same as generalizing black people is racism.

Edit: And to add some random education, Men and Women have the same ability to read the emotions of others: " _men as a group aren't poor "everyday mind readers"; they are simply unmotivated ones. If you want men to show you how well they can compete with women in "reading" other people's minds, just pay them for it!_ " [http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/everyday-mind- reading/20...](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/everyday-mind- reading/200901/where-is-womens-intuition)

Women's intuition is no more effective than Men's intuition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Very nice!

Couple of notes:

• Why not create a custom title tag for each company rather than using "5 Inspiring Places to Work brought to you by The Daily Muse" for each one,

• If I click get updates, I can't close the sign in box.

• Shouldn't clicking on a help wanted note, link me directly to the job rather than their jobs page?

• It'd be nice to have some type of hover effect applied to the images

</comment><comment><USER12> Minor nitpick: Fonts render weird on chrome/win7. Screenshot: <http://i.imgur.com/OXJUn.png>

</comment><comment><USER13> Yay, I made the cut, if you want to hear me talk about the Table of Wonders at Kiva, it's near the center here <http://companies.thedailymuse.com/kiva/office>

</comment><comment><USER14> Reminds me of <http://workvibe.com>

</comment><comment><USER15> Except for the "Museo" font which I find unreadable, it seems nice and clean.

</comment><comment><USER16> Not having a prominent direct link to the website of the company near the top of the profile seems like a gaffe. Why hinder access to the very company you're profiling?

</comment><comment><USER17> Looking good. The design screams for a responsive layout though.

</comment><comment><USER18> The tiles concept makes it really MS Metro like.</comment>


Testing Android apps with Calabash and AppThwack - <AUTHOR> http://blog.fieldforceapp.com/post/74188989058/android-fieldforce-appthwack

<comment><USER2> Thanks for the post, guys, and the service. Would love to hear from others who have made the jump from iOS to Android, what methods you're using for test and whether you're leveraging any cross-platform tools. AppThwack is a growing part of our stack. Thanks!</comment>


Successful Startups Using offshore developers? - <AUTHOR>

Are there any examples of start-ups that have been fairly successful (had some 10K users/acquired, etc) by outsourcing all development work on platforms like Elance/Odesk.
We at QwikDial (qwikdial.com) are a 2 member startup and were wondering if some had a similar experience that they'd want to share.
Thanks and also feel free to review our landing page (qwikdial.com). We are looking for beta testers. <comment><USER2> This page doesn't seem to work right on Google Chrome on Windows -- I can't click on any of the links.

It's unclear looking at the page what exactly is being sold? Health insurance? Some other kind of insurance? What do pets and fitness have to do with it?

I'm skeptical about any company in this space because often they talk as if you are going to get quotes without hearing from a second-rate salesperson. Maybe you're not doing this but you will pay for their sins regardless.

I have a friend who runs a dev shop in India who runs the software development operations for startups who have the business operations elsewhere. These guys are world-beating at what they do.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback. There seems to be some bugs and I will let you know as soon as we fix them. I dont want to give away anything about QwikDial, but would like you to take a look and let me know if it made sense. But not yet though, ill keep you posted.

Thanks again!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> There are some examples here: [http://www.quora.com/Outsourcing/How-far-can- outsourced-deve...](http://www.quora.com/Outsourcing/How-far-can-outsourced- development-take-a-startup)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the link...really helpful and validates our hypothesis.</comment></comment>


It sucks to be a clone - <AUTHOR> http://www.lancerkind.com/2009/08/29/it-sucks-to-be-a-clone/

<comment><USER2> I don't remember much of the movie - thankfully - but if an army is shooting at me and I can butcher them with my magical sword, I don't care if they're clones, robots, aliens, black, or children.

</comment><comment><USER3> Unfortunately, I was too distracted to comprehend most of the article after reading the author's terrible, terrible mistake: the clones are from Jango Fett, not Boba Fett (or 'Bobo Fett' for that matter).

(It is kind of eerie how the clones are basically treated like robots. And they act like robots.)

</comment><comment><USER4> Is that headline a Jonathan Coulton reference?</comment>


Why a Dumb Phone Is a Smart Move - <AUTHOR> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj41dCcy_DVAhXlzFQKHYnWDBEQFggrMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fb6e54ea4-86c4-11e7-8bb1-5ba57d47eff7&usg=AFQjCNFamwWdRhfdmm9eqRg3fzjKuAxClA <comment><USER2> As the guidelines request, please submit the original source url, which in this case is the Financial Times article:

[https://www.ft.com/content/b6e54ea4-86c4-11e7-8bb1-5ba57d47e...](https://www.ft.com/content/b6e54ea4-86c4-11e7-8bb1-5ba57d47eff7)

</comment><comment><USER3> Pay walled</comment>


Neal Stephenson Explains His Vision of the Digital Afterlife - <AUTHOR> https://www.pcmag.com/news/368417/neal-stephenson-explains-his-vision-of-the-digital-afterlife <comment><USER2> >Q: How would you describe the current state of the internet? Just in a general sense of its role in our daily lives, and where that concept of the Miasma came from for you.

> Neal Stephenson: I ended up having a pretty dark view of it, as you can kind > of tell from the book. I saw someone recently describe social media in its > current state as a doomsday machine, and I think that's not far off. We've > turned over our perception of what's real to algorithmically driven systems > that are designed not to have humans in the loop, because if humans are in > the loop they're not scalable and if they're not scalable they can't make > tons and tons of money.

How is this any different from turning our perception of what's real over to mechanical turk systems like newspapers and TV news?

This line about perception of reality somehow being different today than it was, say, in the 1980s keeps coming up. The main shift is that the number of (dis)information sources has risen sharply and they've become much more efficient. Secondarily, entire media channels (newspapers and TV) have lost relevance to all but the older generation. Increasingly, those news outlets just track social media, which may be the oddest development of all.

In this context, the effective discontinuation of the White House press conference was inevitable. For better or worse, the president talks directly, unfiltered, to everyone. That's the real doomsday machine if put into the wrong hands.

<comment><USER3> He later relativizes that with:

> So that means that access to that kind of higher-quality view of the world > becomes a class-based situation where people who've got the money to pay for > or partially pay for human editors and curators are getting higher-quality > info, which I think is just a slight kind of magnification or > intensification of the way things are now anyway.

I repeat:

> …intensification of the way things are now anyway.

Now, here I disagree with Mr. Stephenson, these things were much more intense in prior times.

What he observes seems to be the development in the U.S. in terms of tonality of political discussions.

If you look at Asian countries as a counterexample, there is no such "intensification" happen because of SN at all. To the contrary, even the house of suckage, FB, is contributing positively, because a lot of people would not go online without FB or other easy ways. Operating keyword here is easy. For many people, who just made the jump into being alphabetised, or being the first in their family to be so, many SN outlets are a somewhat more comprehensible access point to info, then "Google Fu".

<comment><USER4> >If you look at Asian countries as a counterexample, there is no such "intensification" happen because of SN at all. To the contrary, even the house of suckage, FB, is contributing positively, because a lot of people would not go online without FB or other easy ways.

That's hardly an argument in favour of social media. The US is a democracy where people used to have civic debates around a shared reality.

That social media isn't going to ruin the debate climate in corporate- governmental societies where civilians don't have any input anyway doesn't really calm my nerves. In fact it frightens me. If the future of the internet is a cluster of entertainment bubbles with business and government bending reality to their will, and China is an example of the future, I'm not really keen on duplicating it. It's actually a very prescient observation: There seems to be a strong correlation between societies with high technological development but no democratic tradition, and the demise of traditional channels of media in favour of social media.

<comment><USER3> Which society "with high technological development but no democratic tradition" witnesses a "demise of traditional channels of media in favour of social media?"

<comment><USER4> I don't think I can actually name you a Chinese mainland newspaper that isn't government owned and controlled. So calling it a demise might have actually undersold it, I don't think independent journalism plays a role at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm not convinced that the impact of SM is much different from the impact of 3-network TV programming back in the 50s-60s.

'We've turned over our perception of what's real to algorithmically driven systems ....' Like Nielson ratings?

We certainly weren't allowed to play a greater part then. Are we now, really? So, if once again we've allowed corporations to spoon-feed us, in return for watching advertising ... how's that any more of a doomsday than the first time around?

Stephenson's a remarkable story-teller but this comment is not helpful. If things look darker, that doesn't mean that they are. TV and Newspaper headlines were essentially algorithmically predictable. 'Darker' stuff wound up in magazines.

Today, anyone with the time can see it all ... unfiltered by news 'experts'. If it looks manipululated, _it always was_.

"The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread." \- John Swinton, 1880

</comment><comment><USER6> The actual article:

[https://www.pcmag.com/news/368417/neal-stephenson- explains-h...](https://www.pcmag.com/news/368417/neal-stephenson-explains-his- vision-of-the-digital-afterlife)

<comment><USER7> Also, title should be fixed to say "Neal" instead of "Neil".

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Part of the problem is the participation trophy and helicopter parent mentality.

Who are you to tell me my beliefs are wrong? I can be anything I want, I am qualified to be an expert on something because I want to be. The Earth is flat, who are you to tell me otherwise?

The lack of humility is the real doomsday machine.

<comment><USER9> Funny you mention flat earthers, I think it's because of social media that the number of times they're mentioned dwarfs the actual number of flat earthers alive today by something like a few hundred thousand to one. Just one example where something gets blown way out of proportion.

<comment><USER10> I would assume the same holds true for the AntiVax movements. While I constantly hear about it online, I don't know a single parent with that mindset.

<comment><USER11> We know there are plenty of antivaxers because they sign certificates of immunization exemption. Plus we keep track of immunization rates. In WA there are about 4% kindergarten kids with non-medical immunization exemptions [0]. In some communities, like Vashon Island, the exemption rate goes upwards 25% [1], and the non-vaccination rate upwards to 44% of kindergartners in 2012 [2].

[0] [https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/348-682-SY20...](https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/348-682-SY2017-18immunizationgraphs.pdf)

[1] [https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article26252716.ht...](https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article26252716.html)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/health/measles- outbreak-w...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/20/health/measles-outbreak- washington-new-york.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm vaguely interested in the article, which this wasn't, but wow Slashdot's gotten really scummy since I last visited.

<comment><USER13> I left ahortly after Malda, tr days of conversations with Bruce Perens and Wil Wheaton are long gone, it's mainly Infowars fans now.

<comment><USER14> Too bad Malda sold it before the social media valuations like of Facebook.

Slashdot had some commercial awareness (e.g., there was a lot of predictable "take my money!" meme about products), but wasn't thinking along the most profitable lines, and maybe never could've. (I've been wondering how much/often dotcom founders of successful startups reshape the world in their image, and I doubt that Malda saw the world with a Zuckerberg eye, for example.)

Another big property that was bought by the same people was SourceForge. Which didn't fetch anywhere near the price of GitHub.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> > PCMag: The first glimpse we get of Bitworld is this newly sentient virtual > mind conceiving its surroundings, its being, and its ability to think and > create and learn and adjust in the midst of endless chaos. It was > fascinating stream-of-consciousness writing to encapsulate cognition. That > must've been a really tricky part to write.

I'm looking forward to reading this, for sure.

But I gotta say that Greg Egan did a good job of this, at the beginning of "Diaspora". Which he published in 1998.

Also interesting is Kevin MacArdry's _The Last Trumpet Project_ , which goes further. Read-only access to the past permits bringing everyone who ever lived into digital heavens. It came out in ~2010.

</comment><comment><USER16> "My big picture view of this is that broad access to the facts is empowering to everyone who can get it. The broadening of that power base to include more people comes at the expense of the oligarchs of the world, who are always going to be able to reap power, wealth, and benefits from keeping everybody else in the dark."

This is a very interesting quote to me because it's the type of quote that "the oligarchy" uses to label those like Alex Jones wing nut conspiracy theorists.

</comment><comment><USER17> Why is social media the poster child for algoritmically driven content? If anything, social media response to scale hasn't been to use algorithms to drive content from top down, but instead to crowd source that information. Yes Facebook might rearrange your newsfeed. But the information it shows is still driven by the likes and shares of your network. On places like reddit it is driven by upvotes, or hash tags and retweets on twitter. The algorithm is secondary to the user group.

Thus if we really are going to blame social media, it's because we aren't more selective about the social networks we embed ourselves in. But this of course is a problem that existed from the dawn of humanity.

<comment><USER18> The problem is still that the algorithms cause problems. Social media is also a poster child because we could actually observe the transition in many cases: Early Twitter and Facebook as far as I know had entirely chronological timelines, and then changed that to "increase engagement", with all the side- effects that has. Just some examples:

\- boosting things that are already popular increases their measured popularity even more, which both

a) over-emphasizes things that get reacted to quickly, which means e.g. quick outragous headlines get even more benefit over more in-depth coverage than they already do by human nature and

b) over-emphasizes popular sources over niche ones.

\- Facebook actually does guesses at audiences, which means liking something can actually mean you _decrease_ it's reach with the intended audience. (the "Facebook mom problem": if you post e.g. about your latest scientific paper and your mom likes it immediately, because that's what moms do, Facebook assumes it's family content and is less likely to show it to professional contacts that are the actual audience)

\- for commercial content, Facebook intentionally limits reach among people who explicitly choose to follow you unless you pay for visibility

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Technologically, it seems to be pretty speculative and hand-wavy. Consider:

> One thing we do know about quantum computers is that once we can get them to > work, which is no small task, they will be unbelievably fast and increase > available computing power by orders of magnitude compared to traditional > computers

> The near-future world of _Fall_ is full of familiar buzzwords and concepts. > Augmented reality headsets, next-gen wireless networks, self-driving > vehicles, facial recognition, quantum computing, blockchain and distributed > cryptography all feature prominently.

</comment><comment><USER20> relatedly: [https://www.nealstephenson.com/why-i-am-a-bad- correspondent....](https://www.nealstephenson.com/why-i-am-a-bad- correspondent.html)

 _That is not such a terrible outcome, but neither is it an especially good outcome. The quality of my e-mails and public speaking is, in my view, nowhere near that of my novels. So for me it comes down to the following choice: I can distribute material of bad-to-mediocre quality to a small number of people, or I can distribute material of higher quality to more people. But I can't do both; the first one obliterates the second._

<comment><USER21> But his books are quite mediocre too (besides those wikipedia articles he adds to them) so what does it make his speeches?

<comment><USER22> I love his books...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Is this an ad for a book on HN?

</comment><comment><USER24> Url changed from [https://news.slashdot.org/story/19/05/25/0117238/neal- stephe...](https://news.slashdot.org/story/19/05/25/0117238/neal-stephenson- says-social-media-is-close-to-a-doomsday-machine), which points to this.</comment>


Funny but Real Linux Commands - <AUTHOR> http://frankmash.blogspot.com/2006/03/linux-commands-funny-linux-commands.html

<comment><USER2> They're not real with the versions of the commands that I have.

Also, this is not the kind of "content" that I want to see on this site. I thought we had editors?

</comment><comment><USER3> Doesn't work on my machine (Ubuntu 7.04)

Why is this even here, I thought this was NEWS.ycombinator.com? If I wanted stuff like this, I'd be on Digg.

</comment><comment><USER4> For those having trouble, try running 'bash' first.

</comment><comment><USER5> These jokes are probably even older than Internet, that's why they basically don't work on modern Unices.

</comment><comment><USER6> Isn't anyone old enough to recognise the csh prompt?</comment>


KakaoTalk: People's App - Mobile Culture in South Korea - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/mobile-culture/a6d345937b04

<comment><USER2> Now we need to be able to apply this unification through technology in markets that are slower to adopt social networks and cutting edge tech. Now that most of the world has adopted and figured out what social media is, its time to leverage it to solve problems, optimize processes, and create streamline and efficient businesses.</comment>


Australian Federal Police has dropped the ball on "Anonymous" hack attacks - <AUTHOR> http://www.zdnet.com.au/insight/security/soa/AFP-s-high-tech-unit-let-Rome-burn/0,139023764,339298463,00.htm

<comment><USER2> Wow. Next headline:

The editor for a technology news site knows nothing about technology he reports on.

 _Given the widespread availability of information pertaining to the attack, at the very least, the AFP could have been expected to have taken action to shut down websites and IRC channels belonging to the group, even if it couldn't arrest its leaders._

Those are some serious expectations... which wouldn't have done a lick of good _even if_ the AFP had worldwide jurisdiction (and flew around on magical unicorns) as the author thinks they do.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's an Australian article about an Australian incident (unfortunately), so can we use Australian grammar?

"Australian Federal Police _have_ dropped the ball on 'Anonymous' hack attacks"</comment>


Things Real People Don't Say About Your App - <AUTHOR> http://trpdsaya.tumblr.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Even if it's just image macros, I think it's good to browse through some of them to burst the geek bubble you might find yourself in after focusing on code and architecture for too long.</comment>


The Anatomy of a Whale - <AUTHOR> http://engineering.twitter.com/2010/02/anatomy-of-whale.html

<comment><USER2> Very interesting: Twitter started delivering about 100 fail whales (503) per second a few weeks ago for reasons that weren't immediately apparent. So this blog entry details their hunt for the problem and how they think they can ameliorate it. _Lots_ of details including graphs and tables.</comment>


Ask HN: Block Baidu - <AUTHOR>

If what we read at http://www.netresec.com/?page=Blog&month=2015-03&post=China%27s-Man-on-the-Side-Attack-on-GitHub and http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/anti-censorship-group-china-behind-cyberattacks-on-us-sites/2015/03/31/f7e2e910-d781-11e4-bf0b-f648b95a6488_story.html is true, then Baidu's network is being used to attack GitHub and the worldwide technology industry.
But Baidu, like everyone else, has a responsibility to ensure their network isn't used to attack others. Yes, China is a large and powerful malicious actor. But Baidu is a global presence - this entire attack uses their outside-of-China audience - and a NASDAQ listed company $BIDU. There are many things Baidu could do to ensure its network aren't used to attack others, most obviously locate servers used by customers outside China inside a secure network where they can not be compromised, i.e. outside China. This may be difficult, but that does not change the fact that it is still Baidu's responsibility to stop their networks from being used to attack others.
Until such time as Baidu have taken active steps to prevent their networks from being used to attack others, we should drop their packets and consider their network compromised. <comment><USER2> Baidu has to comply with the Chinese government, it is effectively almost impossible for them not to. Considering there are communist party officials embedded within Baidu's office. And they would not be able to exist without the permission and good relations with the Chinese Government - or the Government would just take control.

Also Baidu has an interest in working with the Chinese government or at least allowing some of this to happen without kicking up a fuss because China helpfully blocks all Western technology companies to ensure that they can copy and clone their own versions without foreign companies gaining any market share.

Block them.

</comment><comment><USER3> I don't think it only affects servers outside of China. Just users loading Baidu Analytics from outside of China. Given that most of these sites are probably domestic, they'd need to take action domestically. All non-Chinese sites blocking Baidu would do little to mitigate the attack.

Also I don't think it's accurate to say "their networks are being used to attack others". Nor does their network have to be compromised. Someone is just MITMing their js. (assuming their innocence and no hack).

Baidu is in a very bad position (govt-relations wise). Best they can do is report it to some department/police and hope for an answer.

<comment><AUTHOR> Since the consumer traffic to Baidu, that is being told to attack GitHub, comes from outside the GFW, a tier 1 provider could block consumer access to Baidu and stop the attacks (since people can't visit Baidu, and therefore don't have their browsers told to attack github via JS injection).

> lso I don't think it's accurate to say "their networks are being used to > attack others".

It's Baidu's datacenter, and Baidu's bandwidth, which Baidu pay for.

> Baidu is in a very bad position (govt-relations wise). Best they can do is > report it to some department/police and hope for an answer.

Yep. Or add extra capacity outside China.</comment></comment>


Learning to Love Brutalist Architecture - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/art/artists/why-we-must-learn-to-love-brutalist-architecture/ <comment><USER2> To me, it represents the point where glorification of the lead architect became more important than the function of the building or practice of architecture. So you get monumental architecture that in addition to being horrifically ugly, is usually non-functional and doesn't wear well, with lots of flat roofing and poor planning for water displacement.

In my city, we have an old high school built in 1905 whose interior was refurbished and remains in service as part of a university. The replacement high school, built in the 70s, is a brutalist dump infested with mold and falling apart. The 1970 building will be torn down at great expense soon, while the 1905 building has a good chance of still being in use in some form 100 years from now.

<comment><USER3> Some of it is ugly, but some of it has an incredible stark beauty.

<comment><USER4> That beauty is usually abstract, and brutalist buildings, unless they are very deftly placed, typically destroy the civic and aesthetic fabric they are located in. Yes, they can appeal intellectually to the high-minded modernist, but the guy simply trying to find the entrance for a decent cup of coffee's life is ruined on that account.

The problem with modern architecture is that it requires a genius to pull off, and the vast majority of architects, and I would say projects _by geniuses_ , do not even come close.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Check out this blog for lots of fun pictures of that kind of thing: [http://architectureofdoom.tumblr.com](http://architectureofdoom.tumblr.com)

The feeling that you're actually browsing someones collection of atonal german techno records is inescapable.

<comment><USER6> I think there's a very big difference between Brutalist architecture as practiced by the architects in that movement and soviet architecture whose main objective was to be cheap and fast to build (and maybe sprinkle in some propaganda).

<comment><USER7> There is an old soviet movie whose intro sums up how the brutalist architecture was adapted by the regime - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9W0GCvPz4E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9W0GCvPz4E)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> PSA: use of concrete != brutalist. The articles makes it confusing for someone not familiar with the distinction, because the author flips back and forth between discussing the use of concrete in architecture and discussing brutalist buildings.

E.g. the kitchen (and the house it is in), the shop, and the bridges in the article are not at all brutalist.

<comment><USER9> I'm pretty sure the style is called "industrial chic".

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Move to any major Brazilian city and you will learn to hate it. The sheer amount of brutalist buildings just ruins every skyline in the country. When I go to big cities abroad, I really feel in a totally different world

</comment><comment><USER11> When I saw this headline I thought it was about software architecture. A lot of what I see could be described as brutal.

</comment><comment><USER12> The practical problem is that concrete gets gross. I work in the Watergate, which is a mostly concrete crime against humanity from a slightly later era, and it's gross close-up. It looks in far worse shape than turn of the century masonry buildings around the country.

<comment><USER13> I lived near the Watergate one summer as an intern and would shop at that awful little Safeway on the lower level. I was expecting the Watergate to be so much more, given its historical significance/infamy. Nope. Hideous.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> "Brutalist architecture" looks to me a lot like every other building here in Warsaw Pact countries.

<comment><USER15> Can see the similarity but "built mostly with unfinished concrete" != Brutalism.

It has a defined style, my absolute favourite is The Barbican Estate in London

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/London_b...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/London_barbican_18.JPG) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbican_Estate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbican_Estate)

When done without style it's horribly oppressive though but I don't think any less oppressive than the nasty steel and glass monoliths going up everywhere.

Also I love concrete, when done using high grade materials and polished it leaves a lovely finish approaching marble.

I'd quite like to use it as a material for furniture but for the weight problems.

<comment><USER16> I love the Barbican as well. These big concrete cliffs and plains remind me of the countryside in some remoter bits of the UK.

It's telling though that so few people go there. To walk east from Barbican tube station, you can either go along Beech St (through the tunnel built for motor traffic under the Barbican) or over a footbridge and across the Barbican itself, which is quieter and has better air and doesn't involve waiting to cross any roads. The latter seems the obvious thing to do, but at rush hour the tunnel is busy with pedestrians, while the Barbican pedestrian level is almost empty.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Nope. Most Brutalism still looks ugly and unfinished. Yeah it's cool that concrete can be made into all kinds of shapes, but I'd argue while Brutalist forms may be technically difficult they are not particularly aesthetically pleasing over the long term.

I think a lot of this Brutalist revival comes from people who don't live with these buildings (not all but I think a majority.) Brutalist buildings are impressive and even bracing when you first see them, but if you are in a position to see them every day, that's when they become drab, dull and even an ugly.

There's a reason they developed that reputation over time, and only now when a generation of people who aren't familiar with them and don't live with them finally rediscover these buildings they are the ones who like them. Tell me you still love them if you actually live with them every day and don't just look at it on a desktop, then I might buy that this is more than a retro- nostalgia driven fad.

<comment><USER18> I'll bite: Williamson Hall at the University of Minnesota is by far one of my favorite buildings, but has a very brutalist chic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Went out to Radio Kootwijk in NL last weekend, really cool space... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Kootwijk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Kootwijk)

<comment><USER20> I'd say that building has more of an industrial Art Deco vibe to it than Brutalist. Have a look at Battersea Power Station and you'll see what I mean:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battersea_Power_Station](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battersea_Power_Station)

</comment></comment><comment> guard-of-terra Can we please instead unlearn XX century?

Build like this again:

[http://nesiditsa.ru/wp- content/uploads/2012/09/228.jpg](http://nesiditsa.ru/wp- content/uploads/2012/09/228.jpg)

3-6 floors, organized in blocks, one after anothers, with lot of nice details.

I fail to grasp why architects still propose those hideous buildings nobody want to live near? All kinds of glass blocks? Displayed out of context because they stick out surroundings.

<comment> guard-of-terra While Brutalist tend to be ugly, there's Constructivism which introduced most of Brutalist upsides without downsides.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivist_architecture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivist_architecture)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> There's a wonderful BBC documentary about how we ended up in this mess and the vitality of beauty in our everyday lives. If you've never had the pleasure, you'll need about an hour, and you will find yourself thinking about it for years to come: "Why Beauty Matters" [https://vimeo.com/112655231](https://vimeo.com/112655231)

</comment><comment><USER22> You know one of the big problems with brutalist isn't necessarily the architecture itself as opposed to how it it weathers in some climates like either England (new or old). I remember seeing some brutalist buildings in Washington DC and being like 'wow those don't look like shit' so used to seeing Boston city hall and Alewife station, which do.

<comment><USER23> I get your point, but I would argue that making the building with the right materials for a given environment is part of the architecture itself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> For those of you inclined to disagree with the idea of learning to love obviously ugly buildings, I would like to recommend two books:

[http://www.amazon.com/The-Geography-Nowhere-Americas- Landsca...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Geography-Nowhere-Americas- Landscape/dp/0671888250)

[http://www.amazon.com/Bauhaus-Our-House-Tom- Wolfe/dp/0312429...](http://www.amazon.com/Bauhaus-Our-House-Tom- Wolfe/dp/0312429142/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454427093&sr=1-1&keywords=from+bauhaus+to+our+house)

Kunstler is a bit of a crank, but his analysis of the problems with modern architecture and urbanism are very good. Wolfe, of course, is a genius, and his very short book is a fantastic and deeply funny (if depressing) read.

</comment><comment><USER24> There was a great episode of the fantastic podcast, 99 Percent Invisible, on brutalist architecture: [http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/hard-to-love-a- brute/](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/hard-to-love-a-brute/)

</comment><comment><USER25> Not brutalist but since we're talking concrete... I've long been a fan of Japanese architect Tadao Ando[0].

A lot of brutalist buildings are imposing blocky structures but Ando's buildings are poetry in concrete. The looming mass of negative space in the Chikatsu Asuka Museum[1] is one of the spookiest and most awesome architectural experiences I've had (it's dedicated to ancient tombs in the area). I used to love hanging out at Galleria Akka[2] and I treasure the afternoon I spent at the Church of Light[3].

For me a defining feature of Japanese aesthetics is appreciation of the materials from which a thing is made (there's a word for it but I've forgotten). A wooden spoon should not hide the fact that is made of wood. A clay tea bowl should celebrate its "clay-ness" rather than try to cover itself with glazing, unless the point is to celebrate the materiality of the glaze. (This aesthetic is the exact opposite of skuemorphism.) Ando applied this concept to concrete. In some of his buildings the concrete is rough and you can see the stones embedded in it; in other buildings it is smooth as glass.

All that said, I've heard from architects and occupants that his buildings leak like sieves. They're mostly not practical buildings. They're intended to make a visual statement.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadao_Ando](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadao_Ando) [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_Prefectural_Chikatsu_Asu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_Prefectural_Chikatsu_Asuka_Museum) [2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galleria_%EF%BD%81%EF%BD%...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Galleria_%EF%BD%81%EF%BD%8B%EF%BD%8B%EF%BD%81.JPG) [3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Light](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Light)

Update: edited for formatting (why can't HN just use Markdown or RestructuredText??)

</comment><comment><USER26> The reason why many find/found it ugly is that it's cheap. There's a long history of expensive things defining whats beautiful in architecture.

The typical red of Swedish houses is imitating brick houses: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falu_red](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falu_red)

Timber framing houses were often directly built with a stone facade. Only nowadays we have learned to love timber framing houses.

</comment><comment><USER27> The Brutalist style is strangely beautiful when integrated with Classical architecture (see, for example, the _Ulster Museum_ ).

It is however just a shell and the spaces inside should be bright, inviting, functional and a joy to live in- that's what I find most important about architecture (and I am just a layman).

<comment><USER28> It's a matter of personal taste. I'd say the brutalist style is at its _worst_ when juxtaposed with more traditional styles, and at its best when completely alone in the landscape where its unusual proportions are less jarring, and the bare concrete looks earthy rather than _dirty_

At least the Ulster Museum architect - whose creation looks like it's in the process of devouring the older building - seems to have had a sense of humour.

<comment> guard-of-terra If you get to be alone in the landscape, it means the landscape is unwalkable, which is no go.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I know it's common to hate on it, but I actually love a lot of Brutalist Architecture. It shows a strong commitment to infrastructure that I rarely see today.

Plus, a number of the examples just look very genuinely nice to be around (the Spaghetti Junction, Brunswick Centre, and Zog House in the article all look great)

</comment><comment><USER9> One of the reasons brutalism is ugly, is that the movement more or less explicitly rejects aesthetics -- or rather, given the movement's alignment with socialism, it rejects bourgeois notions of aesthetics.

<comment><USER30> Yes, it was a part of the social leveling plan. It was a hard challenge from the architects' part in finding ways to infiltrate at least some sorts of aesthetics into the politically highly sought plainness and dullness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> The empire and first order environs are heavily inspired by brutalist architecture.

</comment><comment> at-fates-hands If anybody is interested in more Brutalism architecture, I would recommend DeZeen's collection of articles on the subject matter, you'll get a much broader view and interpretation of this style:

The Dezeen guide to Brutalist architecture: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/10/dezeen-guide-to- brutalist-a...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/10/dezeen-guide-to-brutalist- architecture-owen-hopkins/)

Architects pick their favourite Brutalist buildings: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/19/architects-favourite- brutal...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/19/architects-favourite-brutalist- buildings/)

11 lesser-known Brutalist buildings that helped define the movement: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/14/fuckyeahbrutalism- top-11-br...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/14/fuckyeahbrutalism- top-11-brutalist-buildings/)

Brutalist buildings: National Theatre, London by Denys Lasdun: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/06/brutalist-buildings- nationa...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/06/brutalist-buildings-national- theatre-london-denys-lasdun/)

Brutalist buildings: Prentice Women's Hospital, Chicago by Bertrand Goldberg & Associates: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/02/prentice-womens-hospital- ch...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/10/02/prentice-womens-hospital-chicago-by- bertrand-goldberg-associates-brutalism/)

Brutalist buildings: Yale Art and Architecture Building, Connecticut by Paul Rudolph: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/26/yale-art-and- architecture-b...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/26/yale-art-and-architecture- building-paul-rudolph-brutalism/)

Brutalist buildings: Pilgrimage Church, Neviges by Gottfried Böhm: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/17/brutalist-buildings- pilgrim...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/17/brutalist-buildings-pilgrimage- church-neviges-by-gottfried-bohm/)

Brutalist buildings: Habitat 67, Montreal by Moshe Safdie: [http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/11/brutalist-buildings- habitat...](http://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/11/brutalist-buildings- habitat-67-montreal-moshe-safdie/)

The Yale Architecture building is amazing and one of my favorites.

</comment><comment><USER32> Like learning to love an abusive spouse.

</comment><comment><USER33> Must? _Must???_

Ugly is ugly. No, I don't need to learn to love it.

<comment><USER34> I suspect the title was meant a brutalist play itself, but we've mollified it for you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> How about we just admit that it's horrible, tear down all those monstrosities and go back to nice classical European buildings like we used to?</comment>


Growing Up with Two Mentally Ill Parents - <AUTHOR> https://joebalcom.blog/2020/08/01/growing-up-with-two-mentally-ill-parents/ <comment><USER2> >>Everything I do is in honor of them.

Thanks for this essay, you are a wonderful person.</comment>


Virtualized Windows XP coming to Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate users - <AUTHOR> http://wilsonbroadcast.com/2009/04/virtualized-windows-xp-coming-to-windows-7-professional-and-ultimate-users.html <comment><USER2> This is really going to help Win7 adoption. It's a really nice OS, and if you have application compatability with XP, there's going to be a lot of reasons to switch, and not so many to hold back.</comment>


Ask HN: VPNs for Hosting? - <AUTHOR> Are there VPN services suitable for hosting a web server behind the VPN?  Eg, a VPN which will provide a public IP and accept connections on ports 80 and 443?  The intent is helping a friend setup a home web server that she does not want to be geolocatable due concerns over stalkers.    I realize this is a niche use case. <comment><USER2> How reliable does it need to be? A bare-minimum Linux VPS for a few bucks a month and an SSH reverse tunnel would give you "hide me" functionality and its (IMO) a much easier setup to debug if something isn't working. It's probably also got some resources to e.g run a proxy cache (and thus reduce the amount of traffic to traverse the weakest link: the tunnel), if that's at all helpful

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I was thinking to do something like that if there were no packaged solutions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> For hosting, I'd suggest to look at hosting providers rather than VPN providers.

Here's one: [https://freerangecloud.com/cart.php?gid=11](https://freerangecloud.com/cart.php?gid=11)

Cloudflare's Argo Tunnel is another great option.</comment>


Ask HN: How to be more productive during waits? - <AUTHOR> During my regular work day I find myself often waiting for things to compile, build, then deploy etc.
When that happens I tend to have a habit of either reading the news, going to social media (FB, instagram) or watching youtube.
Some days, if you add that time up across entire day it ends up being 1-2 hours. That's extra 2 hours a day, spread out in 5-10 minute chunks, that can be used for something that doesn't degrade my brain.
What suggestions do you have to fill those gaps with more productive tasks? <comment><USER2> Read a book. (Not just anything, but classics of all time that have proven value)

</comment><comment><USER3> Go for a drink of water and stretch your legs.</comment>


'Anumeric' people: when a language has no words for numbers - <AUTHOR> https://theconversation.com/anumeric-people-what-happens-when-a-language-has-no-words-for-numbers-75828 <comment><USER2> Is it just me or someone else thought about the 2016 movie Arrival talking about time in languages (no spoiler - I think it is a great film for NLP folks)

I remember there was a research claiming babies have innate ability to perform simply addition and subtraction (1+1=2 for example), and here is a reference to babies innate ability predicts their math skills

[https://today.duke.edu/2013/10/babymath](https://today.duke.edu/2013/10/babymath)

P.S. I was also told the hardest part of researching babies is to get clearance and approval from their parents

So it seems like we as human have the basic building block for math built-in, and it takes practices and further development to create complex concepts based on those simple blocks.

<comment> theo-m Referring to your baby ability remark, it is in fact true of most mammals and most birds. You can check out the works of Stanislas Dehaene on the subject.

<comment><USER3> I'll be honest, I'm not going to look up the work.

Do those experiments show definitively that babies and animals understand that 1 + 1 = exactly 2 and nothing else? Or do they understand that 1-ish + 1-ish is more than 1 -- because this isn't that much different from what anumeric groups understand. Less and more are different from discrete arithmetic, strictly speaking.

For instance, 1 fish + 1 fish might be > 3 fish, if the first two fish we're talking about are 20 and 40 lbs respectively, and then the second set of three fish are ten pounders each. In the "real world", hunter-gatherers deal with continuous mass problems at least as often as they deal with standardized, discrete units.

Did these babies and animals understand that 1 + 1 = 2 and only 2, and not 2.5? Or 3?

The abstract idea of arithmetic is something on the scale of reasoning about an idealized circle, say, which doesn't exist in nature on a day-to-day basis.

<comment><USER2> The experiment involved putting teddy bears behind a blue screen. Two bears enter the screen and when the screen is lifted with one bear or three bears, the baby will express a lot more anxiety than seeing two bears

<comment><USER4> That just shows that they understand different or more than/less than.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> > This and many other experiments have converged upon a simple conclusion: > When people do not have number words, they struggle to make quantitative > distinctions that probably seem natural to someone like you or me.

This kind of thing has always fascinated me. It's not just about numbers, it's about how language shapes thought.

If a language lacked the ability to express the concept of sadness, would its people be sad? Or would they just be angry because they can't explain how they feel to anyone?

If we had four digits on each hand, as some cartoon characters have, would we think in octal?

<comment><USER6> My take is that it's not the language that shapes thought, but something else that shapes both language and thought.

Case in point: There are a few particular feelings which I experience sometimes that I recognize every time - I just find it impossible to describe them using any language I know.

Example: A sudden feeling of not recognizing the people next to you. I mean, I am consciously aware that these are my e.g. relatives, but for a split second this feeling of familiarity fades. It is clearly different than the one I get when I look at people I don't know.

I can't even tell if I'm the only one I know who experiences this, because there are no words that could describe it accurately.

<comment><USER7> I think your example describes a type of jamais vu[1]. It happens to me (and presumably everyone else) too.

[1]"A sense of unfamiliarity with, or of never having experienced or seen before, something that should be familiar." [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jamais_vu](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jamais_vu)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This conclusion is refuted by the existence of Australian Aboriginal groups with no number words who count perfectly well - [http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/news-releases- archiv...](http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/news-releases- archive/aboriginal).

Even Everett Sr doesn't agree that the piraha can't count - [http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001387.h...](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001387.html)

<comment><USER9> It's worth reading some of the papers where they discuss performance at counting tasks among the Pirahã. IIRC there were some people who seemed understood there was a difference in the quantity but struggled to quantify or articulate it; and there were other people who didn't struggle to articulate it at all, they just didn't bother with it or think it important.

"Number as a cognitive technology: Evidence from Pirahã language and cognition" [http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027708...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010027708001042)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> The interesting (to me) part of all this is cognitive impacts. To what extent does thinking in numbers impact how you think about stuff.

There are northeastern Australian languages without words for relative directions (behind you, left, right). They use absolute/cardinal directions instead. Reportedly, this fosters an unbelievable sense of direction and an instinctive internal compass.

I wonder if what other basics we could add to language and what that would give us.

<comment><USER11> I wonder how that reflects on considerations of self and environment. Using your locality as prime rather than yourself.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Interesting, it seems the Everett family is still obsessed with the Pirahã. This is both a nice thing (indigenous languages and societies are poorly studied) as a bad one (it doesn't help them with more linguistic authority at all, others should study the Pirahã instead). As a linguist I used to feel a bit of shame for liking the Everett's research, oh well...

<comment><USER13> I'm curious, why is it shameful for liking their research?

<comment><USER12> Among many linguists the whole study of the Pirahã language is sort of bogus because it goes against a few core ideas of Chomsky that they love so much, almost like a dogma. I've never heard a linguist describing Everett's work as anything other than "cute, but wrong". Personally, I think that's all sad scientifically speaking.

<comment><USER9> You must hear from relatively a lot of generativist linguists and syntacticians. The linguists at Language Log and elsewhere regularly praise Everett's scholarship in descriptive linguistics. And there is literally no important dispute left, except non-Pirahã specialists claiming Pirahã has subordinate clauses. Getting Everett banned from working with the Pirahã is just sad and pathetic.

[http://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/03/28/poiso...](http://www.chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/03/28/poisonous- dispute/) [http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3857](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3857)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> That article ended too early. I was looking forward to reading about how anumeric people see the world, and what happens when they encounter situations where seeing exact quantities would be helpful. Also some example of this: "I was continually impressed by their superior understanding of the riverine ecology we shared."

<comment><USER15> I was interested to see a comparison of cultures with varying degrees of numerology in their language. I've heard that certain languages make math much easier to understand, as factors and products are self evident in the way words for numbers are constructed.

<comment><USER16> Any examples of languages like this? Are you speaking about the number base that the language works in? I have heard that a base-12 system would be much more useful than base 10 due to its greater factoring potential (2x6, 3x4). This is why there are 12 inches in a foot, and 12 hours in a day, it makes working with thirds and quarter units much easier. Wouldn't it be even greater if we worked in base 12 and 12 was represented as 1-0?

I've wondered if Chinese and other Asian languages make math a little bit more straightforward with their more consistent logic in the naming of numbers. 11 = 10+1, 21 = 2x10+1, etc. European languages are logical to a decent extent but we absolutely have more exceptions.

My favorite numbers language quirk has always been French with its preserving the 'four-score' in its numerology. i.e. 95 = 4x20+15

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I'm a bit sceptical about the explanation for base10, especially in Europe. The UK changed from a base 12 money system in my lifetime, and the history of the metric system doesn't go back all that far: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_metric_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_metric_system) More info here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal#Origin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal#Origin)

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm assuming the author is the son of Daniel Everett?

The depressing end to the documentary about the nativist argument with Chomisky - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOuBggle4Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOuBggle4Y) \- suggests that the Pirahã - one of the peoples mentioned in the article - have been thought numeracy through a government program.

<comment><USER12> I didn't quite get the numeracy thing, Derriz.

<comment><USER13> At about 44 minutes, it states that they are being taught to count? Or do you mean something else?

I found it sad because their previous life/existence was fascinating; it seemed to be an example of a successful (as measured by happiness) human society that was amaterialistic.

<comment><USER18> So your fascination with their way of life is more important than kids getting basic education?

FIY, mandatory schooling doesn't apply to indigenous people. But they're still Brazilian citizens, and our government is obligated by law to offer education to all citizens. Indigenous people (including the Piraha) may also be entitled to e.g. retirement benefits, so it makes sense to learn arithmetic.

<comment><USER13> I'm sad because the opportunity to study and learn from a unique human culture and society is being lost and that officials representing the Brazilian government seemed to actively block attempts at further study - which was the point of the documentary.

I also somewhat fear, from what was shown in the documentary, for their future as in many cases, suddenly introducing a more modern/western way of life to an isolated people often seems to result in social breakdown.

I believe it's best to err on the side of caution in cases like this when you are interacting with a complex delicate system.

While I would consider myself a western liberal, fully appreciative of the benefits of a western scientific education and the use of modern technology to improve human existence, I would still expect great sensitivity when introducing such benefits to a people like this.

I'm not a relativist generally but in this case, the absolutist belief that these peoples' lives will be improved by exposing them to a modern education and technology reminds me that missionaries also had an absolute belief that introducing such people to the Bible (for example) would "improve" them and we know that the results were mixed in the latter case.

<comment><USER18> > the absolutist belief that these peoples' lives will be improved by exposing > them to a modern education

I haven't seen the documentary, did anyone say that? My point is if you get monetary benefits, then you need to be able to read, write, and do arithmetic. This isn't a controversial idea. We aren't talking about uncontacted tribes. And it's voluntary. Some people want to get education, and they should be able to. The idea the that the government should somehow deny them that is untenable.

And if you think the government should not offer them social security at all then you have a bigger problem.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Related: Humans Naturally Think In Logarithms [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-natural- log/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-natural-log/)

I'm not sure if this is the article I originally saw - I seem to remember reading a longer one.

</comment><comment><USER20> Theories as amazing as this based on one researcher I'll always default to bullshit.

It makes for good quips in Hollywood movies I guess. Not so great for science.

[http://muse.jhu.edu/article/270906](http://muse.jhu.edu/article/270906)

<comment><USER18> Everett's reply here:

ling.auf.net/lingbuzz/000427/current.pdf

<comment><USER20> Everett defending Everett.

It get that's a common thing, but would prefer an external party to agree with some of his outlandish claims.</comment></comment></comment>