Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/06/magazine/fashion-sweatpants.html <comment><USER2> The collapse of the fashion industry does not mean the clothing industry will collapse.

People still need clothing obviously (cheap and of good quality preferably).

Also, what do we consider the fashion industry exactly? Most long term clothing trends seem to be dictated by a couple of factors. Consisting of:

\- practicality. Jeans are good example of this. It's cheap and practical clothing that lasts a long time.

\- cultural "requirement": clothing that is required to fit into social circles. The shirt would be a good example of this, aswell as the tie.

\- Enviromental requirements: This one should be obvious ofcourse, No one wears a wool jacket in abu dabi.

Fast fashion and the fashion industry as a whole seems incredibly wasteful to me. Buying new clothing because of yearly trends is way to damaging to the enviroment for what it's worth.

<comment><USER3> (All comments on culture US centric) - This thinking is why the men's section is 1/4 as large as the women's in most stores. Culturally for men clothing is supposed to be above all practical. There are 5 genres of men's clothes - business (pressed shirts, suits), casual, workout, skater, and comfort (hoodie).

Contrast this with the women's section. Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality. There are all sorts of "impractical" cuts, flairs, colors, layers to choose from. There's a shoe for every occasion. You can get dramatically different fabrics, feels, and touches. Not even going into accessories.

There is certainly a sea change happening in fashion retail, but it's more that like everything else it's accelerating things that are already going on. People were trending less formal almost everywhere in the workplace, except NYC, SF and LA (or in high touch industries like real estate or law). Your H&Ms are best positioned to survive, where everyone already knows that Macy's is on its last legs.

<comment><USER4> > _Women have an expectation to express themselves and their personality._

Personality is expressed through choice of cut, material, and color of cloth?

<comment><USER5> Don't be dense. Whether you admit it or not, most people judge others based on appearance.

<comment><USER4> Don't be denser, judging others by their appereance is shallow. The fact that people still do it doesn't mean that when you change your clothes that's any kind of expression proper.

It's just a cheap way to signal something that you might or might not be, and only superficially at that.

<comment><USER6> Yes, don't _treat people badly_ (mostly) because of the way they look.

But be realistic. Someone that wears all black has made a choice just like the person that is always fashionable with lots of clothing. Some beard and hairstyles take more work than others. These are lifestyle choices people make. Someone knowing how to do 20 hairstyles to get their hair off of their neck decided to learn that instead of something else. A man with a complicated beard style probably spends some time daily on it to keep it up. A person with nails half the length of the fingers they are attached to probably eshews some practical things simply because the nails are in the way. A person that wears traditional clothing due to religion probably isn't a good candidate to date me.

I understand that being poor might make it so you don't have a lot of choices in these things. I've been there: My look was basically whatever I was forced to wear to work and whatever I could find at thrift stores. At the end of the day, though, I still had choice -and to discount what these choices tell others about you is, in itself, dense - as is discounting that humanity often makes snap judgements based entirely on how things look.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> So, in the 80s, there was this anti-cassete copying campaign, and they were stickers etc, "Record copying is killing the music industry".

And Jello Biafra (iirc), said: "Record copying is killing the music industry - and it's about time!".

I'd say the same for the fashion industry - selling crap, made in sweatshops, marked up 10x to 100x, for mindless, environmentally unfriendly consumption based on BS advice of complicit websites, tv shows, magazines, etc., on what people should wear next...

<comment><USER7> One cassette version of the Dead Kennedys e.p. In God We Trust Inc. had a blank side, printed with the message "Home taping is killing record industry profits! We left this side blank so you can help."

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> > Now a global pandemic had hit. He couldn't foresee that. No one did.

 _Some_ people did. Taiwan prepared after SARS. Of course nobody forsaw all possible consequences but it would be better to say that not everyone has the capacity to account for all possible tail risks.

<comment><USER9> Do you believe that Taiwan somehow knew ahead of time that there was going to be a pandemic this year? How do you believe they knew that?

<comment><USER8> They knew that there was a continuous risk of a pandemic and prepared for one happening _eventually_. Just like we know there's a low risk of an entire server room going up in flames/water damage/lightning/getting hit by a truck driving into a building and that's why we have offsite backups even though we won't know when something is going to happen.

<comment><USER9> > They knew that there was a continuous risk of a pandemic

But I think so did every country.

Wasn't global pandemic at the top of almost every country's national security risk register? They knew it was likely, and they knew it was high-risk. I know for a fact it was at the top of the UK's public national security risk register.

You're perpetuating a silly myth that major western countries didn't know this was coming and didn't know it was a big risk.

<comment><USER10> There basically wasn't a proper "modern day" pandemic before this. The previous one was the spanish flu in 1918 which was very quickly forgotten due to a much larger pointless massacre (world wars)

Air travel increase is a big factor why it got so bad so quickly, even in the past two decades basically everything has changed. We have hundreds millions of people basically teleporting between continents every day.

<comment><USER11> > _We have hundreds millions of people basically teleporting between > continents every day_

That's hyperbole. In 2019 there were 4.5 billion passengers boarding a flight[1]. Divide by 365 days and you get on the order of 10 million per day, most of which will not be intercontinental.

I don't disagree about the amount of air travel nowadays facilitating pandemics, just wanted to get the numbers straight.

[1] [https://www.statista.com/statistics/564717/airline- industry-...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/564717/airline-industry- passenger-traffic-globally/)

<comment><USER12> You are arguing a very minor point.

<comment><USER11> I appreciate the feedback, it feels better than getting only downvotes. I thought it was an important point because the number was off by at least an order of magnitude, maybe two. But I can see how my response might have been seen as pedantic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I read the article, then was surprised to see that the comments here are focused to much on the clothing part of the story, rather than the investment and financing parts of the story.

They way VC is described in the story seems familiar to me from time spent working for Bay-area startups, and I think the critiques in the story apply in tech as well.

<comment><USER14> Well DTC is moving through a lot of non perishable industries as many do understand how much power retailers have over the manufacturer of products they sell. Just as the article mention RTVs and discounting forced upon the manufacturer grocery has been doing this for ages, even down to the point of forcing sales on a schedule, charging for end cap space or specific aisles.

One issue the fashion industry also faced is that for the last few years it really felt as if America was pulling back from celebrity worship. That is good thing and part of that means not having to keep up with the Kardashians, whether their TV show or the brands they sport. With so many in the music industry called out in #METOO; excepting one glaring genre; there was pull back there as well.

DTC has made it sort of in perishables through Instacart and such push many manufacturers DTC through proxies like Amazon and more.

As for sweats, as an ex who used to model when young always told me, sweats don't judge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Good riddance. The majority of my clothing spending was for rarely worn social compliance items like a suit, ties, and nice shoes.

<comment><USER16> My spend is probably:

#1: Specialty clothing for outdoor activities, etc.

#2: Stuff for day-to-day travel and (when I used to regularly go into an office--which hasn't been for years) day-to-day office. This clothing isn't particularly expensive but gets stained/worn over time.

I have dress clothing but I wear it so seldom that I'm pretty sure I'll never buy another tie or likely another suit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> " _Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months._ "

With the fashion industry ' _pushing the unseen and unsold 2020 collections into 2021_ ', Oscar Wilde's quote may no longer be true!

</comment><comment><USER18> The way this article frames it, all these fashion companies are going direct- to-consumer (DTC) as their business model salvation, but that is only good for Facebook.

> Here is the problem for DTC companies: Facebook really is better at finding > them customers than anyone else. That means that the best return-on- > investment for acquiring customers is on Facebook, where DTC companies are > competing against all of the other DTC companies and mobile game developers > and incumbent CPG companies and everyone else for user attention. That means > the real winner is Facebook, while DTC companies are slowly choked by ever- > increasing customer acquisition costs. Facebook is the company that makes > the space work, and so it is only natural that Facebook is harvesting most > of the profitability from the DTC value chain.

[https://stratechery.com/2020/brandless-closes-the-dtc- facebo...](https://stratechery.com/2020/brandless-closes-the-dtc-facebook- challenge-dtc-versus-softbank/)

<comment><USER19> fwiw this is basically what happened to "media" or "the news". facebook middle manned the distribution chain and then peeled off most of the value/ad- revenue. moving on to consumer-goods/e-commerce is just "whats next" after news.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans- culottes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-culottes)

<comment><USER21> Maybe the pandemic and associated social revolutions are the endpoint of an evolution towards public acceptance of comfort clothes that begun with angry, poorly dressed, peseants in 1790's france.

<comment><USER20> What do you see following, or are you heralding the Coming Age of Formal Sweatpants?

<comment><USER21> I hope for the latter! But I suspect the usual cyclical nature of human fashion and culture.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Even sweatpants grow old. Feels weird but sometimes I need to put on work clothes even if no one will see me in that outfit. It helps a little to set boundaries.

<comment><USER23> Yeah I stopped wearing my sweat shorts and went back to chinos because it makes me feel more alert and focused. I've never been one to pay much attention to my appearance, but in quarantine I need all the help I can get to stay on task. I'm even thinking of getting some indoor, lace-up shoes and wearing them during the week.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I think there's a lost opportunity here to bring monk-type robes back into fashion.

</comment><comment><USER25> [http://archive.is/vDYqU](http://archive.is/vDYqU)

</comment><comment><USER26> I'm saddened by the job losses, but the fashion industry (esp. the high end) seems nothing but a toxic drain on society and the environment. New "trends" dictated by celebrities and designers every year do nothing but sow personal insecurities and environmental destruction. Good riddance.

<comment><USER27> Yes, human "culture" and it's "trends" are such a waste. Why can't everybody just spend their entire lives staring at screens while dressed in tshirts, like us software engineers do?

Those thousands of years of human history spent on emotionally-driven aesthetic pursuits like art, fashion, music, culinary tradition and architecture...what a waste of time and resources. If only we could be more robot-like and efficiency optimizing! Good riddance indeed.

<comment><USER26> Besides being a _reductio ad absurdum_ [0] argument that ads nothing to the discussion, I'll address your comment.

Music, Art, Food, Literature and Architecture generally don't go out of style every 6 months (although companies are trying harder and harder to make it so).

Nor do they have the same toxic effect on the environment (possible exception: food?) and personal self esteem as high fashion.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum)

<comment><USER28> You are conflating high fashion and fast fashion. High fashion doesn't go out of style every 6 months. Louis Vuitton still sells the same Monogram purse that they did 10 years ago, likewise my aunt has several $1000+ handbags she has owned for 20+ years. Your comment about high fashion going out of style every 6 months is just untrue, and to the other posters point just highlights the myopic lens in which software engineers view fashion.

Also, the NY article is not about fast fashion (Zara, H&M), it's about high fashion (Marc Jacobs, Balenciaga, Alexander Wang).

<comment><USER26> High fashion sets the trends (and the 6 month cycle) that the fast fashion outlets follow. When talking about negative influence on society and the environment they're pretty inseparable.

I agree I could have made the distinction between high and fast fashion clearer in my comment though.

For the record, the handbag example is an extreme outlier and not at all illustrative of the how the industry actually functions (makes money).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> font-size: 30px; max-width: 600px;

Is it just me who has difficulties reading this article on desktop?

<comment><USER30> They probably wanted it to look good on their insane high resolution screen judging by the font... They shoulda sized it in em and not pixels specifically.

OTOH reader mode on firefox fixes any of that nonsense.

<comment><USER31> The em unit is relative to the inherited font size. If you don't specify an absolute font size or inherit one then you inherit the user agent default for the <body> which is 16px.

<comment><USER30> It gets worse, I had to follow up[0] on what you've said, but if the parent element is also using EM the size keeps increasing.

Namely according to the MDN docs I read:

> To recap, the em unit means "my parent element's font-size" in the case of > typography. The <li> elements inside the <ul> with a class of ems take their > sizing from their parent. So each successive level of nesting gets > progressively larger, as each has its font size set to 1.3em — 1.3 times its > parent's font size.

So REM is what you probably want if you intend to do some nesting and use the parents root font-size, set it once, apply it everywhere. TIL what em really does, versus what rem does.

[0]: [https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Learn/CSS/Building_...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Learn/CSS/Building_blocks/Values_and_units)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> This problem seems to be US specific.

If you look up YouTube street tours of some European countries or Japan or even Russia, you'll notice that the average person is still generally fashionable, certainly more so than in the US.

<comment><USER33> Maybe some enterprising young chap could bring mainstream fashion to the Xl - 6XL size ranges? That way the US could get involved.

<comment><USER34> People don't realize that culturally that is the 'fashion' of the U.S.

Read Anathem by Neal Stephenson, it has a funny take on this :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Fast fashion is terrible for the environment[1]. It's good that things are moving towards comfort and longevity.

[https://youtu.be/xGF3ObOBbac](https://youtu.be/xGF3ObOBbac)

</comment><comment><USER36> Most of my money net goes towards cycling gear. I buy new clothes maybe once a year or once every two years.

I have a custom made suit that I bought from a bespoke tailor in Chengdu for about 1200 usd including custom shoes.

I still want to find a nice trench coat for winter, and I saw one at Dior that I really liked. Didn't want to pay the 5000 usd price tag though.

<comment><USER37> I remember asian tailors advertised in the Financial Times.

They just rented a room near the City to make measuremens an bought an ad in FT to book appointments.

That way you could get a nice bespoke suit for less than it was sold in London.

I wonder if that market still exists.

<comment><USER36> I think it depends on who you approach. The place I went to in Chengdu was actually owned by a foreigner. You would get measured. Then he sourced fabric from Hong Kong, had the pieces made there, then made second and third fittings in person. Shoes were made locally, with leather sourced from Hong Kong as well.

I'm not sure if it would be possible to order a completely bespoke tailored suit online. If you gave them your measurements, you probably could get a suit, that was semi-tailored (similar to off-the-shelf suits). You'd still need to get final adjustments made. But it still wouldn't be completely fitted 100% to you and your body.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Speaking of fashion design, the snake-text formatting and layout and industrial snarkiness of this NYT article is totally reminiscent of suck.com (i.e. 22 December 1995):

[https://web.archive.org/web/20060127002252/http://www.suck.c...](https://web.archive.org/web/20060127002252/http://www.suck.com/daily/1995/12/22/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suck.com](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suck.com)

Ten years later, the story of Suck.com (2005):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10143395](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10143395)

[http://www.keepgoing.org/issue20_giant/the_big_fish.html](http://www.keepgoing.org/issue20_giant/the_big_fish.html)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10143805](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10143805)

> nailer: Inventor of snake text, which is now so ubiquitous it doesn't have a > name.

> derefr: So ubiquitous that Google can't define it for me, either, it seems. > What is it?

> Cederfjard: I'd never heard of it either. This is one of the results my > search yielded: > [https://web.archive.org/web/20130420012902/https://longform....](https://web.archive.org/web/20130420012902/https://longform.org/stories/web- > dreams-the-story-of-suck)

>HotWired's Flux, a weekly gossip column from the pseudonymous Ned Brainard, was close. The column was the first example of what the Web magazine Salon (www.salon1999.com) dismissed as "snake text," meaning the story ran in one long, narrow column.

</comment><comment><USER39> My preference is to buy full black jeans and shirts, 10 at a time. They look good and don't go out of style. No insecurity when going outdoors and tons of cognitive load freed up for other stuff every morning. Instead of having to choose an outfit every morning... It's too exhausting to keep up with trends ;)

<comment> site-packages1 This has the unfortunate side effect of everyone thinking there's something "off" about you. This can have detrimental effects on your career, even if you're a billionaire iconoclast, but a regular person probably will face greater detriment.

Notably, the cognitive difference picking between having all the same clothes and having a variety of clothes that go together in any combination (various jeans, colors of tee shirts, etc) is nil, and has the added benefit that people won't think you're write because you're always wearing all black (though I can't promise they won't think you're weird for other reasons).

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> Honestly I like some aspects of the fashion industry -- shoes, hats, even shirts or collar shirts all have some personality you can showcase who you are and give yourself an identity (I think that's what makes fashion kinda interesting).

However, pants? It's not really that different. I could care less lol

<comment><USER41> Remind me of this[0] Calvin and Hobbes strip

[0] [https://thecomicninja.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/calvin- and...](https://thecomicninja.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/calvin-and-hobbes- individuality.gif?w=640)

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> [https://archive.is/vDYqU](https://archive.is/vDYqU)

</comment><comment><USER43> Looking at the brand in question in the article, their sweatsuits look very similar to any $20 sweatsuit but cost $88 for the top and $88 for the bottom.

I would argue that the reason high end fashion is dying is because no one can afford it and more importantly I think people realize there is no need. Amazon provides exposure to a wide range of acceptable clothing for pennies on the dollar compared to high end brands. If the quality is not great and it does not last as long, I'll just buy another. If i have to buy 5 of them, I am still probably better off and that really does not happen, the quality is generally fine.

</comment><comment><USER44> I'm on the pretty low to nonexistent level of fashion consciousness but fast forward 8 months to a world where maybe there is a vaccine. I can see a rebound cultural shift to going out/dressing up bringing back fashionable clothing for work and play stronger than pre-pandemic. There can easily be a cultural shift away from everyone sitting in their basement playing Animal Crossing in dirty sweatpants on Saturday night. I'm a homebody introvert but when the vaccine hits man I'm hitting the town hard!

<comment><USER45> And at that time, being fashionable will have additional cachet because by then many of the fast fashion retailers will be bankrupt or running reduced selection and inventory.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> I am getting pretty tired of sweatpants but regular pants feel uncomfortable while working from home. Does anybody know some pants that are reasonably comfortable but still a little stylish?

<comment><USER47> >I am getting pretty tired of sweatpants but regular pants feel uncomfortable while working from home.

No pants? You're working from home after all...

Only half kidding, my morning work uniform now is my cotton dressing gown ('bath robe' in US English?)

I tend to get dressed around lunchtime.

Vive la difference :)

<comment><USER48> _No pants? You 're working from home after all..._

I used to work for a guy who applied such a dress code in the office.

On any sign of customers approaching he would bolt to his office and put some pants on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> The "fast" fashion industry maybe, which has been an over-inflated, Brave New World-like market for decades. When it comes down to it, people don't need more than a few items of clothes. And right now we're in a situation where it comes down to it. Comfort and practicality are important now, not whether your outfit is fresh or fashionable.

</comment><comment><USER50> For anyone who cares about sustainability and how textiles and fashion relate, the documentary _The True Cost_ will change everything for you. It's available free online: [https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-true- cost](https://thoughtmaybe.com/the-true-cost).

The industry pollutes and oppresses beyond what you think.

</comment><comment><USER51> From other thread: As a former fashion writer, the "fashion industry," reduces to a spectacle for selling perfume and cosmetics. Fashion itself is an expression of beliefs, power, and alignment that people buy clothes to participate in.

In this sense, fashion is to clothing what live music is to alcohol, or what journalism is to advertising. There is an underlying high-margin business that you use a spectacle to attract people into to sell them stuff. The talent for the spectacle exists in a local equilibrium that is largely oblivious to the economics that make it viable. Journalists are a great example of people who thought they were the money maker and remain in denial about the economics of their role of bringing readers to advertisers.

Fashion designers (like Jacobs in the article) appear to have the same conceit, where their role as the spectacle that draws in punters who buy super high margin smelly water, face paint, and snake oil lotions has been displaced. Covid has just been the coup de gras, where the fashion business has been steadily being polarized and dis-intermediated for at least a decade. A business that promised and re-sold proximity to fame was really taken out much earlier by Instagram and its influencer economy, where now everyone is famous for Warhol's 15 minutes, and the returns on investment in fame schemes are now much more diffuse.

The dynamic described in the article about luxury clothing in the end resembles the book and publishing business, where you are in effect consigning product to retailers, who make massive orders for their big box shops, then destroy you with returns. It's like how movies spent almost 100 years in in the popcorn and concessions business, and they've found totally new economics in the streaming game. Fixing fashion is the same class of problem as fixing journalism, publishing, music, movies, and arts in general, where the economics of getting people together to sell them complimentary high margin goods in the moment and place was decimated by social media, and now finished off by covid. These markets aren't dead, but they are now polarized, where the super high end is fine, and the absolute bottom will persist, but the lucrative middle is hollowed out. These fashion design brands made most of their money on middle market goods backed by over leveraged private equity investments and sunk costs in conglomerates, and that's why they're getting killed by this.

Fashion is the business of symbols and signifiers and there is infinite human demand for these (just as there is for stories, conflict/news, spectacle, etc), so future businesses using totally different modalities will pick up the slack to meet it, but reading fashion talent hand wringing about their market is like listening to journalists talk about the economics of publishing, hockey players discussing team ownership, or perhaps even us hackers talking about venture capital. What we think is meaningful and decisive, it's not meaningful and decisive.

</comment><comment><USER52> I admit it, I miss the style of the 80's - Miami Vice, Duran Duran, etc.

<comment><USER53> Shoulder pads in woman's cloth were a horrible invention imho.

<comment><USER52> I like the neon colors, big hair, and just the flamboyancy of the style. Shoulder pads I could do without :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> Good. The fashion industry is toxic and wasteful. I hope it does not survive, but of course I am sorry for the people who's livelihood is impacted.

</comment><comment><USER55> Fashion is simply marketing gone wild. It's preying on the idea that the best way to be a better you is to wear ____. That you can cure your inferiority complex by consuming X, Y or Z. Which in turn belittles those around you, and so on.

TL;TD - An expensive ____ (e.g., watch) doesn't make you a better person. And you know this. So you get a nice car. Doesn't help. So you get new shoes. And so on.

Fashion is a cure for people who lack confidence and style. But that cure is more like an addiction.

<comment><USER56> It's a little strange to me how often the ills of consumerism are conflated with fashion alone. This comment (although not only this comment) drastically undersells that fashion is an art form as much as painting, writing or cinema: a means of personal expression and cultural communication which exists in conversation with its own history and traditions. Beyond that, the staving off of existential dread you mention is just as present in the amount of networking gear I've been obsessively adding to my homelab during iso -- where is the contempt for that?

<comment><USER57> thanks for this comment.

this comment section is hard to read. For lots of topics, HN comment section is interesting to follow to see experts in the fields giving insightful info. This is not one of these.

Totally agree on fashion as an art form. The pursuit of beauty also applies to what you wear.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> For an article on an international industry this was quite astonishingly parochial. What is happening outside the US?

</comment><comment><USER36> I'm gonna start wearing my cycling jerseys and bibs everywhere I go in tennis shoes now.

</comment><comment><USER59> Has the Submarine resurfaced after 15 years?

[http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

</comment><comment><USER60> Lounge pants for the win.

</comment><comment><USER61> He studied economics.

</comment><comment><USER62> Isn't this ultimately a good thing? I recall someone here made a post about how much Green House Emissions are created as a result of the Fashion Industry.

Personally I haven't worn sweatpants since I was in mandated gym class in HS and it was too cold outside for those overpriced cheaply made shorts and have instead opted for gym clothes (as it was closed) which are nylon/synthetic wicking and breathable during the winter months and then cargo shorts collection I've had and added to since I was in University in the summer.

Honestly, while I think Women's fashion is mainly a thing they do for themselves, as most guys care more about what is underneath the clothes, its something that should be disrupted if its true it accounts for so much environmental costs. And perhaps we could accelerate the tech needed to '3d print' clothes/outfits, or at least something like a community based automated textile model where you bring a 'print/template' of the outfit adjusted for your measurements, pay a sum to the operators and come back a few days later with the clothes you want and cutting out the middle men.

This could spur on a ton of creative sub-cultures like they have in France, Italy, Japan or England that so many have talked about about in this thread, as they still have a significant demand for tailors to meet the Global demand.

I tip really well when I take my clothes to the local dry cleaner own and operated by a Family of Koreans because not only do they have a dry-cleaning business, they're situated inside the family owned landromat with about 40 machines, but also have a garment altering business, a shoe repair business inside them and are perhaps trail-blazing how clothing could be done in the Future with a modern automated textile model as an adjunct now that retail real estate is undergoing an Apocalypse situation and can be had for cheap.

I wear timeless fashion things for formal wear and its usually made in Italy or S. Korea these days, I wish I could put a few local seamstresses/tailors/shoe artisans back to work and stop relying on needless shipping costs and the harm that goes with it for my clothing. Even if it costs more I'd prefer to stop relying on this model for the few $1000s I spend on clothes a year.

> Yes, but Jeans are part of the collapse now and considered formal for > creatives with Levi's down 62% and doing layoffs. I thought "formality" was > bizarre as well, but apparently their target demo don't consider the older > skinny-jeans, and the new high-waisted mom-jeans to be as comfortable as > Lulus... who'd have thunk it?

It's CEO did, I saw his interview in a podcast about how he saw the trend happening from Yogis and Health Centric movements in the early days and how he swept in after the 2008 financial crises when many of the former Bar Hopper scenesters switched to the Gym for their socilizing place of choice due to less expendable income.

He still thinks the one piece lycra smart-clothes movement that measures all kinds of vitals and provides a ton of real-time health information is in the works for the next transition, but that Lulu is the first phase to get to that. If I recall correctly, he came from the outdoor/skate-snowboard Industries and caught that wave before starting Lulu and had a lot of success there. Overall it was interesting and insightful on something I give almost no real focus toward, clothing trends are something I stopped caring about in HS and I've seen so many things 'come back in style' that I see how unoriginal 'fashion' really is.

</comment><comment><USER63> tl;dr: the fashion bubble popped.

</comment><comment><USER64> perhaps title "Sweatpants Forever: How the Fashion Industry Collapsed" for context?

<comment><USER65> Changed now. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> This is basically a twelve-thousand-word advertorial for this Sternberg guy's brand, AFAICT.

</comment><comment><USER67> I see fashion every single day, people aren't under lock and key like what happened in China where they welded apartment doors shut from the outside, on at least one occasion.

Such a non-article that really shows how the media inflamed the whole influenza story.

It's their job to write. Writing stuff literally puts food on their table. Even when it's something as stupid as fashion industry collapsing.

An influenza season with a higher death rate than usual is a gold mine to them. A literal golden age of media.

<comment><USER68> So because your particular experience is different, everyone else's is invalid? Hundreds if not thousands of cities went into complete lockdown, and some remain in it.

My city is vibrant and busy, but a nearby state is locked down, with curfews and all stores shut except pharmacies and supermarkets. That's the reality of it, this article is exploring the effects of that.

It's not influenza, you think you're being clever, but you're just displaying your willful ignorance. A proud idiot is still an idiot.

<comment><USER67> Well this story is talking about fashion. Not local trends. Fashion today will not be negatively affected by some cities going into lockdown.

So this is a non-story, typical for bored journalists to make up. Because they have to. They have no other choice.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Bugfender – a modern remote logger tailor-made for mobile development - <AUTHOR> http://bugfender.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello HN folks! This is Stefan from Mobile Jazz [http://mobilejazz.com/](http://mobilejazz.com/).

We've been developing Bugfender and using it as an internal tool for quite some time now and decided to promote it to an actual product.

This is our first beta release of Bugfender, which is now also open to the public. You can find out more on our product page (link above) or by reading this blog post: [http://bugfender.com/blog/this-is-bugfender-were- live/](http://bugfender.com/blog/this-is-bugfender-were-live/)

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>

Current status:

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>

* iOS SDK available and fully working.

* Android and JS SDK in development.

* The web admin is still basic, but working well.

* We've a free account for 3 months during the beta (extendable for another 3 months)

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-

We'd appreciate feedback about:

\</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-

* The product itself. Is it useful to you?

* The product website. Is it easy to understand?

* The pricing page. Does it make sense? What would you price differently.

* The FAQ page. Is it clear enough? What leaves doubt? What would you add?

* Future: what are the features you'd like to have at most?

* Competition: what similar products are you using at the moment? What do you like about them? What do you not like about them?

* An obviously any other kind of feedback is more than welcome as well :-)

Myself and my co-founders will stick around here for a while and are happy to answer any questions you might have.

</comment><comment><USER2> I've been one of the beta testers of Bugfender and so far I like it very much. It provides much more context when an issue happens instead of just getting the stack trace like Crashlytics does. One thing would be awesome to have in Bugfender is to automatically use the NSLog calls instead of having to change to BFLog all over an existing project. That way the only step to get it working would be to import the SDK and that's it.

If you are an iOS dev you should check it out, it may just save you many headaches when trying to debug a problem when it is not easy to replicate.

</comment><comment><USER3> After checking the site I would say it looks quite interesting to iOS developers. I like the idea to be able to get the logs from remote devices.

I use Crashlytics, that's quite similar to Bugfender, but it's only useful when a crash happens and not all our bugs are crashes.

</comment><comment><USER4> Hey there! I've been following closely Bugfender's release process and I have to say that it's very exciting to see it live finally. It certainly is a very useful product when it comes to finding mysterious bugs in your user's device.

</comment><comment><USER5> That's nice! I'm currently sending logs to a PHP script in a very pedestrian way, will definitely look into it.</comment>


I'm taking a break from cron.weekly - E-M https://ma.ttias.be/im-taking-break-cron-weekly/ <comment><AUTHOR> Subscriber here. Thank you for cron.weekly. I really like it and it has been my habit reading it every Monday morning. It is totally understandable that it is not the big scary task that make your brain wear out but the ones require your continuous efforts and time. I hope the the missing of cron.weekly will help remind people of the pressure newsletter writers, bloggers, open source maintainers are facing and the nature of burnt out. Take care

<comment><USER2> Thanks man, appreciate it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I need to get more in touch with unix news in generel for my job. Lurking on HN and Reddit doesn't seem like enough. Too bad that i heard about cron.weekly too late. Any other similar resources?

<comment><USER4> If you aren't already subscribed to LWN (lwn.net), do it now. It is the single best resource there is of both Linux and the broader UNIX ecosystem, both technical (I know a lot about LRU lists that I didn't before) and the broader social movement (I know much more about the governing models of various projects and their community engagement than I did before).

There is a fee but it is lower than for any paper trade magazine and the quality is absolutely on par with such. They have a staff rather than taking articles from anybody which I feel helps keep an even quality to the writing. Absolutely recommended.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> :-( I'm an avid reader, this was one of those rare things that was consistently useful every week. I have no idea how he found the stuff for the email every week, but I loved it, and learned so much. Really sad to see this one go.

<comment><USER2> Thank you for the kind words, they mean a lot!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is my favorite weekly newsletter type thingamajig. I can't wait for it to return.

</comment><comment><USER7> > I won't lie, running cron.weekly has been my most profitable side business > to day. Factor 10x more than all the others. But it's no passive income, it > requires a newsletter issue every week, on the clock.

For me that reads: It's profitable but I have to work for it? What else did he suspect?

<comment><USER2> > For me that reads: It's profitable but I have to work for it? What else did > he suspect?

More like: this hobby got out of hand and is now taking too much of my time, despite the fact that there's financial compensation. cron.weekly wasn't created to be profitable, it was a side-effect of it becoming more successful, but I just need a mental break.</comment></comment>


JavaScript modules (ESM) now supported by major browsers - <AUTHOR> https://react-etc.net/entry/javascript-modules-esm-now-supported-by-major-browsers <comment><USER2> [https://caniuse.com/#search=modules](https://caniuse.com/#search=modules) 68.15% global support, don't get too excited yet. Definitely still need to leverage compilation tools (Webpack, Rollup, Parcel, etc...).</comment>


Ask HN: When to leave a startup? - <AUTHOR>

There are many stories or questions from the entrepreneurs point of view about when to tough it out or when to cut and run. But how about as an employee at a startup? At what point are the warning signs bad enough that its time to pack your bags?
I'm a very early employee at a startup (full-time before the founders were full-time). We have a product and have annual revenues near $500k. On the tech side of things, I love what I do. On the people side, it's miserable. On the compensation side, needs improvement (neither options, nor salary are industry-competitive).
The founder/management team is shockingly incompetent. We are a model example of all the negative traits of founder's syndrome. ( http://managementhelp.org/misc/founders.htm ) There is a culture of blame. The same mistakes happen again and again. Customers are treated poorly (it is a testament only to our niche that new customers keep calling us.) We do not advertise because, as the founder said, "What if someone ordered 100!?!? Then what would we do?"
After a recent $1M investment, they actually said, "Now that we have money, things will be better." Things are not better, but easy access to cash has certainly covered up the worst issues for the moment.
So how about it? When is it bad enough that an employee should jump ship? For what reasons would it be worth toughing it out? <comment><USER2> Unless you tend towards exaggeration when describing things, you only need to re-read your own post to know the answer to this. You don't consider the leadership to have a blind spot that might be remedied, you consider them "shockingly incompetent". Unlike clumsily managed larger enterprises, they don't pay well, don't sound like they have any defensible advantages and are painted as being on the verge of shutdown. You're crediting the _niche_ rather than the product itself for being able to generate revenue despite a lack of effort directed at winning and retaining clients.

If a job's sole saving grace is solving interesting problems and you've been the driving force behind finding a solution, surely there are better options open?

<comment><AUTHOR> Good points, it is eye-opening to re-read my own words.

The tech is flipping awesome. The company is commercializing research developed at a university. Imagine a research lab with several people -- the really smart ones that truly invented the tech got jobs and moved on. The guy that copied everyone elses homework started this business from what they left behind.

It's a small niche, that's why customers keep finding us. But the tech really is the best in our niche. Perhaps needs more polish to finish the research to commercial transition - but functionally excellent.

Definitely no efforts made to attract customers, and little effort to retain them. Yet somehow they keep calling. Now in negotiations with the first big customer -- if the deal works out the company will be on solid financial ground for awhile.

That's the sort of upside that makes me consider sticking around. Of course, I also think about launching for myself....

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Ask yourself honestly if you are unhappy. This alone is a big reason to move. For me being unhappy is even worst than being pay poorly.

The tech job market is very hot lately. You should check out your option out there.

</comment><comment><USER4> Was the company externally funded? If so, try and investigate the profiles of angles/investors who (financially) backed the startup. This often 'tells the tale'.

If the startup is backed by someone (whether an individual or other entity) with a 'proven' track record, it is probably worth sticking it out a little longer.

Hope that answers your question.

\- HTH

<comment><AUTHOR> The original funding came through some government-sponsored startup loans with very generous terms. We were within a week of closing the doors when the more recent investment came through. Because of the financial issues at the time, the terms of that investment are not great for the company -- sort of kills any hope of a bidding war in the future.

So no, nothing with a proven track record. I guess that's even more evidence that supports leaving.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Can what you love about the tech side be found elsewhere?

If yes, then you can at least match what you have (interesting work, crappy compensation, and crappy office culture) someplace else.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I believe it can. Though it is a small field. I think it's worth putting more efforts into other interviews at this point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm currently at a startup and this is probably my fifth or sixth, I cannot remember, and I've experienced pretty much everything you've listed: people suck, pay is wonky, managerial incompetence, hush money. Those traits are germain to any business, but in the startup game you have to understand that you're making certain sacrifices in exchange for greater reward at the end. If you see no end, then you have to ask yourself the following:

Do I share the company's vision?

If the answer is "no", then pack your bags (fire up resume, get job first) because life will not get better for you even if the company succeeds in meeting their short or long term goals.

If the answer is 'yes', then you have to realistically determine if your personal success is tied to the company's. Will you be compensated adequately once the company achieves success (sale, merger, continued investment)? Is that compensation commensurate with what you'd be making at a similar firm? What is your opportunity cost for not pursuing those same goals (cashing out) at a similar firm? And, realistically speaking, can you remain at the company without losing your mind or getting fired in order to complete your personal goals (vesting period)?

In most cases, any given Friday is a good time to leave a startup as you'll have an entire weekend to relax and get over leaving an unhappy situation and begin to work on your future. Most people are tied into their job and don't leave because they're unsure if they'll be able to obtain similar or better employment elsewhere on their own. If you have the skills to work somewhere else and you've proven that you can do your current job, I'd start floating my resume out there and test the waters. It's best to do it while still employed (note to self)!

And when asked, "why are you unhappy in your current position" simply respond "I no longer share their vision."

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the feedback!

One issue is that there is no company vision. When I ask about the company's goals, founder #1 says that if we make enough money to survive for 10 years, then that's fine. founder #2 says we're a high-growth company, and we want to be bought out for $400Million.

The follow up question, "what's the plan to achieve that vision?" is met with blank stares from both of them. The vision is inconsistent at best, and there is no plan to agree or disagree with.

In my opinion, founder #1 just wants a high-tech sandbox to play in. If he gets enough money so that he gets to keep playing then he's happy. founder #2 has friends who made a bunch of money in a startup -- he wants to be like them but doesn't actually know how.

I already started floating my resume out there to test the waters a bit. So far, everything seems better than here. I'm concerned that I'm looking at the greener grass on the other side of the fence, though.

Excellent tip about no longer sharing their vision. I had no desire to air our company's dirty laundry in an interview -- but I had to scramble for a PC response when posed that question a couple weeks ago.

<comment><USER7> First, I would have the response in your pocket when you walk in to an interview. That's a question you can expect.

Second, if you do get another job and you have the luxury to, maybe ask the company if you can consult with them for a week before deciding (get a week off of your current job). Nothing worse than moving from something you don't like to something you think you do, only to find out that it's the same or worse.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: List of macbook alternatives for if you don't like the new models - <AUTHOR> http://nomoremacbook.com/ <comment><USER2> If other laptops would easily, without a hack run MacOS, I would switch on a heartbeat, but that's not the case. I'm not married to the hardware, but I'm married to the software. I use Windows 10 and MacOS at work, and unfortunately I'm much happier with MacOS, and find myself using Windows only for tools that are not available on MacOS.

<comment><USER3> Out of interest what does Windows 10 with WSL not give you?

<comment><USER2> The terminal and all tools that are built for it. After enabling WSL, my computer performance went down a whole lot. File permissions issues between the two systems were constant, and I typically spent more time troubleshooting things than actually doing work. I think I wouldn't mind having a Windows as a personal PC, but not as my work computer. When I'm at work I just want to get work done and not troubleshoot the operating system.

<comment><USER4> To be honest - if you don't require Adobe or Xcode, I've had great luck moving almost full-time to Fedora. I still have a Mac...but it's pretty much only for Logic Pro X.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Many of these are not as much alternatives to the old Macbooks Pro as they are "ultrabooks" focused on imitating the Macbook and Macbook Air.

They make the same mistakes of reducing keyboard travel, eliminating RJ45 ports that don't fit in the chassis, reducing port counts to make the device more wedge-shaped, and reducing battery volume.

I would like to see the Dell Precision, HP Elitebook, and Lenovo P-series included in the lineup. I feel that these mobile workstations are more akin to the old Macbook Pros and better for professional use than an Ultrabook.

Sadly, they seem to be making the same mistakesand regressions that Apple has made in chasing the center of the market. However, if you extend your search space to devices made in the last 4-5 years instead of the bleeding edge, you may drop a few generations off the processor but that just doesn't matter anymore.

<comment><AUTHOR> What you are saying is exactly the kind of info I'm searching for. Do you have any links/reviews for the laptops you are talking about? I'll look into them when I have time.

<comment><USER6> Most enterprise ThinkPads (X, P, T, W) and their HP counterparts (elite book IIRC) are solidly built and very much user serviceable. Do your research or course but those are solid contenders and easy to find as enterprise customers are leasing new ones.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The sheat must include screen size, resoultion, aspect and weight to be of utility to me. The gen of cpu matters much less than these.

</comment><comment><USER8> I'd include the Gigabyte Aero 15X.

Look at the specs on this bad boy:

CPU: 2.2GHz Intel Core i7-8750H (hexa-core, 9MB cache, up to 4.1GHz with Turbo Boost)

Graphics: Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (Max-Q, 8GB GDDR5 RAM); Intel UHD Graphics 630

RAM: 16GB DDR4 (2,666MHz, 8GB x 2)

Screen: 15.6-inch UHD 4K (3,840 x 2,160) IPS LCD (wide viewing angle, anti- glare, X-Rite Pantone certified)

Storage: 512GB SSD (M.2 NVMe PCIe)

Ports: 2 x USB 3.1 Gen1 (Type-A), 1 x USB 3.1 Gen2 (Type-A), 1 x USB-C Thunderbolt 3, HDMI 2.0, mini-DisplayPort 1.4, RJ-45 Ethernet, SD card reader, headphone-out jack

Weight: 4.49 pounds (2.04kg)

Size: 14 x 9.8 x 0.74 inches (356.4 x 250 x 18.9mm; W x D x H)

<comment><USER9> I'd like to add that Linux runs flawlessly on it. It has an extra hard drive slot that's really easy to access so I immediately slotted an extra SSD into it for Arch.

<comment><USER8> I had trouble with Fedora but got Ubuntu working

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm still surprised how much a difference in cost 8GB vs. 16B RAM makes: it almost doubles the cost, which suggests that everything else - the hard drive, the network card, the video adapter... even the CPU! Are almost "free".

</comment><comment><USER11> I love how these sorts of pieces never take into account the cost of replacing software. Microsoft Office? Adobe suite? All the little packages?

<comment><USER12> If you buy Office or Adobe on Mac, does the license not transfer to Windows? I don't recall having to get different licenses for Office when I bought a Mac, I just typed in the same key and it worked.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Each of these laptops has dealbreakers for me, I'm fine to run Windows but even the hardware has issues, some slightly better than the current mpbr.

</comment><comment><USER14> How does the System76 13" model stack up?

Does anyone have experience or a link to a good review?

<comment><USER15> They look like rebranded Sager/Clevo to me, which is what every other boutique laptop seller does too.

Not even close to the quality of something I'd consider a MacBook alternative.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: I need a complicated optimization algorithm created. Where to find help? - <AUTHOR>

We have a rewards company where, on login, the user is presented with several different offers they can choose to complete.
Offers pay different amounts and have different conversion rates, and since offers on the top of the pile get clicked more, it makes sense to optimize the offer ordering based on their performance.
We have a pretty rudimentary system in place now based mostly off of CPC, but it's not nearly as efficient as it could be and it's not good at creating a score for new offers and getting them properly integrated into the system.
Getting this done the right way is over our heads. Any suggestions on where we can find some expert help? <comment><USER2> Look in Knuth Vol 2, seminumericals. There's several different ways to do this.

Also, don't try to reinvent the wheel you'll only do a poor job.</comment>


U.S. Wind Turbine Database - <AUTHOR> https://eerscmap.usgs.gov/uswtdb/ <comment><USER2> The source FAA "circularization" data (for any object above a certain height) are interesting for other purposes as well. You can also see the meteorological masts put up to study potential wind farm sites, planned tall buildings, construction cranes, radio towers, etc.

Fascinating stuff.

</comment><comment><USER3> Very cool! Will have to check if all of the turbine locations exist in OpenStreetMap and import any that aren't.</comment>


First US Senator, Sen Rand Paul Tests Positive for Coronavirus - <AUTHOR> https://www.axios.com/rand-paul-coronavirus-847b3df1-92bc-4ee6-833b-952d16f3ee3f.html <comment><USER2> > ... He is asymptomatic and was tested out of an abundance of caution due to > his extensive travel and events. ...

Very high asymptomatic spread is what sets COVID-19 apart from anything in the last 100 years. It defies belief to suggest that a large fraction of the US Senate is not infected at this point.

</comment><comment><USER3> Hope he doesn't give it to his dad.

</comment><comment><USER4> which means that a lot of them were exposed to it. and a lot of them are...

"48 Senators are over the age of 65

147 Representatives are over the age of 65

15 governors are over the age of 65"

[https://www.quorum.us/data-driven-insights/the-115th- congres...](https://www.quorum.us/data-driven-insights/the-115th-congress-is- among-the-oldest-in-history/175/)

Not to mention POTUS.

At some point no medicine or respirator can help you. Looks like the virus has been making the rounds unmolested quite a bit in USA. Unfortunately it will hit the fan in a week or two...

<comment><USER5> This is terrifying. When the Federal government stops functioning, the country will be in chaos.

<comment><USER6> I don't know if you noticed, but large portions of our federal government have not been functioning for awhile. For example spending months on impeachment proceedings that were guaranteed to go nowhere just for the sake of political posturing, right as covid19 was getting started.

<comment><USER7> The intent was legitimate, a crime was genuinely believed to have been committed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Libertarians don't need the government.

<comment><USER8> ...and if he gets a mild case they'll say "hah! told you so!"

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> "Sen. Paul casts lone vote against coronavirus funding bill"

[https://www.lex18.com/news/national-politics/sen-paul- casts-...](https://www.lex18.com/news/national-politics/sen-paul-casts-lone- vote-against-coronavirus-funding-bill)</comment>


Gates Center for Computer Science debuts at CMU - <AUTHOR> http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09264/999551-298.stm <comment><USER2> Yeah, been walking around that thing for the past couple of years of Cocoaheads meetings on the CMU campus.

Too bad it's an eyesore.

So much of modern architecture is an emperor-no-clothes situation, because no one has the guts to stand up and say it's ugly.

Or take the Scala center at MIT--a kid's fun-house building. It's very clever on one scale, but what will people in 50 years think? They'll think our generation was nuts.

These wild-idea-du-jour kinds of buildings will not endure the test of time.

<comment><USER3> past couple years? it's just opening now. has it been around that long? maybe you mean wean hall, the old CS building, which won an architectural award back in the day, but to me is an ugly bomb shelter

<comment><USER4> It's been under construction for several years now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> As a note, CMU wanted Gates to be here so badly that they literally kicked the campus police out of their building so that they could tear it down and build the Gates Center. The campus police now reside in a building that is almost off of campus entirely, a few streets away.

<http://bit.ly/DQr0J>

<comment><USER6> The article says the site was _formerly home to the campus mulch pit_. Are they lying?

<comment><USER7> Nope, they're right. There wasn't much there before. The Robotics Institute had a shop/shed of some kind. And also the CMU PD. But not much else.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "Architectural success occurs when artful design bolsters functionality"

Oh, we're talking about the Gates Building? I thought you meant the Jobs building.</comment>


Ask HN: What's the quickest way to get into synthetic Biology? - <AUTHOR> I have a Biology background (B.S. degree) and a programming background.
I want to know how I can get my feet wet with synthetic Biology.
What's the quickest way to do so, without having access to a university lab?
Assuming I have space in the garage, is there some kit that I can buy, or something that I can build?
(I have seen some kits, but not knowing enough about the space, I'm not sure which ones are decent for learning and experimenting, and which ones are just money-grabs) <comment><USER2> While not directly synthetic biology, you would probably do good to watch "The thought emporium" on youtube[0]. By watching this channel, doing your own research, and following along at home, you can learn all sorts of things about genetic manipulation and related fields which is definitely a prerequisite for synthetic biology.

[0] [https://www.youtube.com/user/TheChemlife](https://www.youtube.com/user/TheChemlife)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

Some of this stuff looks like what I've done in biology and chemistry labs. So I'm already familiar with some of the techniques, especially ones that deal with running experiments and using equipment.

The "Biology and Genetics" playlist is interesting and looks like some of those experiments can be followed along.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I remember going to a talk where the head of synthetic biology at MIT talked about his work. One of the things he is working on are educational kits for young students. You might want to Google search BioBits.

Last time I checked, the product wasn't readily available for sale, though I wish it were. Aside from that, there really isn't a kit the way you would purchase a chemistry kit.

If you were to pursue this as a hobby and would like to approach this without a kit, I would suggest you at least make sure you have the money to do it. The equipment, reagents, and analysis is incredibly expensive.

</comment><comment><USER4> _loudspeaker whine_

Sir? Put down the Petri dish and back away slowly.

Seriously:

I _highly_ suggest you read up on Bioethics of synthetic biology and its potential applications.

<comment><AUTHOR> As I mentioned before, I spent half a decade studying Biology in a university context and am aware of its implications.

With that being said, I'm going to do what I'm going to do. I don't intend to hurt people but rather come up with ways to help people. Just like any other field. So thanks for the warning, but I'll be okay.</comment></comment>


Tell HN: Rejected from App Store - "customer damaging their iPhone." - <AUTHOR> "We've reviewed Airborne and determined we cannot post it to the App Store at this time because it encourages a physical activity that could result in a customer damaging their iPhone."
I had a great and simple idea for an application a while back. It was actually a pretty cool game, and I'm certain it would have spread like wildfire - but its rather understandable why Apple denied it.
The game simply asked a user to keep their phone airborne (i.e. by throwing it / dropping it onto soft surface) and then measured the amount of time it was in the air for. I threw in a looping scream as well as challenges to push further for good measure. There was a high score table too :).
I've been trying to work out a way to get something out of this for a while, but unfortunately haven't come up with anything reasonable -- so decided to just publish the source code.
Its all available at https://github.com/qix/airborne as GPLv3 (to the extent I'm allowed to by the Apple license.) The code is pretty shocking, I was just fooling around while learning Objective-C. <comment><USER2> Rework it for Android, no pesky risk of rejection there ;)

I'd most likely install it on my android phone, if it were free/ad supported. Could see it being a very viral game, with people finding interesting ways to game the scoreboard.

This is what insurance is for, right?

<comment><USER3> Insurance is for abuse? Insurance is a contract between you and a company who assesses risk by allowing you to buy risk relief at a fixed price. In your contract, there is usually a stipulation that you agree not to intentionally damage the insured "thing" or put said thing at risk.

I hope you'll reconsider the ethics of how you perceive insurance.

<comment><USER2> Sorry I should have included the <joke>tag</joke>.

<comment><USER4> No, you shouldn't have. I understood the sarcasm. Some people here take things way too literally and seriously.

<comment><USER3> I apologize for the incorrect assessment of the parent's message, but please consider for a moment that rampant amount of insurance fraud that goes on all the time. There's a reasonable amount of ambiguity as to whether or not the comment was sarcastic.

<comment><USER2> No worries, I forget that humour doesn't travel well online - <http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poes_Law> ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Recently i have started taking photos throwing my iphone in the air. Do you think you could extend app functionality to trigger camera while phone is free falling?

Let me know :)

<comment><USER6> A picture right as it senses deceleration would be cool, at the apex of the fall, just to see what the phone could see at that time. Video might be fun also, though I don't know if watching blurry spins would be all that enjoyable in actuality. The 3G is the only one that doesn't have real video capabilities, though that's nearly deprecated anyways. Last I heard, Apple isn't going to update it with the next major update. Whether that update is 4.3 or 5, I'm not sure.

To the OP, maybe you could use what you learned about using the accelerometer framework to make an app that background updates the movement of the user, and tracks approximate G-forces of elevators and driving, for example?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Too bad. It would be wildly popular with astronauts... The screaming can be disabled, right?

<comment><USER2> Does it need disabling? I thought in space no-one could hear you scream...

<comment><USER8> Onboard ISS it's not vacuum though )

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> You can push the app and generate buzz by giving away a replacement phone to the top scorer over some period. If its ad supported and grows large enough the money should cover the expense.

Something like:

"Want / Need a new phone see how far you can send yours flying for a shot at new hardware."

</comment><comment><USER10> I had an idea for an Xbox 360 achievement involving peripherals with accelerometers (the Lips microphone, and Kinect).

"One Minute of Free Fall"

The Vomit Comet is about 45 seconds . . .

</comment><comment><USER11> We have a game like that on Maemo: <http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/n900fly/>

</comment><comment><USER12> Clickable: <https://github.com/qix/airborne>.

</comment><comment><USER13> Cool, I had a similar idea, which was to make people throw their phones into the air and try to make it do as many flips as possible. Great to see that you actually built something like that.

I was well aware of the "risk your phone" aspect, "iDare" was my working title...

</comment><comment><USER14> Sounds like a great game for people switching to Verizon from ATT.

</comment><comment><USER15> Obviously the winners in this game would be those who damage their iPhones by throwing them from 1000 ft buildings. :)

<comment><USER16> I was thinking that you might be able to win it by taking your phone on the vomit comet. While considering that though, I'm actually not sure that the accelerometer would be able to notice 0-g after equilibrium, would it?

<comment><USER17> Indeed, without going into orbit, a vomit comet would be the best. Even if you dropped the phone from the tallest building (assuming it would be tall enough, which it isn't), the phone would soon register more-than-microgravity acceleration due to air resistance.

The phone will most definitely notice 0-g after "equilibrium." Pretty much at all times (unless being accelerated by your hand or your carelessness), the iPhone registers a 1-g acceleration towards the ground... much like almost every other static accelerometer you can buy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Hey I really don't know you and I don't want to be personal but it's ideas like this that make me happy that Apple is taking care what comes to the App Store and what not.

You know I really don't understand how someone could enjoy a game which encourages people to throw a 600 dollar device onto a "soft" surface. You how this ends right? Kids want to play this and they will throw the from EVERYWHERE and BOOM you have to buy another 600 dollar phone.

You want to make money? Write something useful.

However I really like that you put the source code on GitHub.

<comment><USER19> _"Kids want to play this and they will throw the from EVERYWHERE and BOOM you have to buy another 600 dollar phone."_

Bullshit. Grow a backbone and just tell the little brat _"No, get a job and buy it yourself this time."_

<comment><USER20> Alternatively, don't buy their first one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> just like this guy then... <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FtWWTllCrg>

</comment><comment><USER22> There was another app that got rejected on the same criteria some time back. It's just the way it is.

</comment><comment><USER23> sounds like n900fly, right?

<comment><USER24> Sure does. Luckily the availability of that program has yet to damage my N900. This can probably be attributed to my good judgment, but not everyone can be assumed to be capable of making good decisions when there are bad options available. A good thing Apple takes care of their mobile phone. Or is it the customer's phone? I'm getting confused.

<comment><USER25> A lot of the comments here are actually pretty disturbing to me. As if the general population assumes that Apple should be the caretakers of how customer's use their own phones, and that the general population isn't capable enough to make their own decisions regarding their own property. Very 1984 vibe to it.

<comment><USER26> > As if [...] Apple should be the caretakers of how customer's use their own > phones

This is Apple's modus operandi with the iPhone, is it not?

<comment><USER25> To be fair, I have no objection to Apple in this case. I was simply surprised at how fully Apple customers have embraced the "protect us from ourselves" mentality.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> My friend created the EXACT same game for iPhone two years ago and they rejected it for the same reason. Interesting.

</comment><comment><USER28> Thank you! I'm pretty sure it will help people to learn about iPhone development.

</comment><comment><USER29> I submitted a similar App in 2009, and it was rejected for the same reasons.

</comment><comment><USER30> Pivot: measure - and rank - how fast a person can shake their iPhone.

</comment><comment><USER31> haha, omg. that scream is terrible.

</comment><comment><USER32> Step 1. Attach to carousel.

Step 2. ????

Step 3. Profit.

</comment><comment><USER33> I made an iPhone app called "HammerTime!"

Round #1 instructs you to place your phone on a hard surface, find a hammer of any kind, and hit your phone as hard as you can.

Rounds #2 and up instructs you to repeat Round #1.

A permanent blank screen indicates you have won and you may receive a prize (a brand new iPhone!!) if you can convince Apple your phone is malfunctioning because of something they did.

<comment><USER34> Bathroom Scale HD: shows a single footprint; users stand on one foot on their iPad, see their weight.

Lots of opportunity for evolution/addl features: time series, weight by time of day, etc. Just one little problem.

<comment><USER35> Stress Meter: place a pillow on the couch, throw your iPhone at the pillow, check stress score based on acceleration, top speed and deceleration. Requires initial calibration in unstressed condition.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> There was an app called Hangtime that did this, <http://iphonehangtime.com/>, but it seems like it's gone. I just searched the app store and found another app, also called Hangtime!, that appears to do the same thing under the guise of measuring how long you yourself are airborne (not just the phone).

<comment><USER37> I ran into a (the?) developer of Hangtime (I think - it may have been a similar app) a while back. He claimed Apple sat on it for a while before finally letting it out _the day the new iPhone was released_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> change game to user jumps or throws self while holding iphone..or would Apple object to user throwing oneself?

</comment><comment><USER39> 1endraqshexyzzzzzzhrwrgttwweojaohfojjvjkvjvjr0 b vxjcgbcvchgchcgixurfosouf0e b odj ujwi oiendidej4uie uwuwu2 uy

<comment><USER15> Quite a thought.

<comment><USER39> Sorry about that. That was my 3 year old.</comment></comment></comment>


Transit and Peering: How your requests reach GitHub - <AUTHOR> https://githubengineering.com/transit-and-peering-how-your-requests-reach-github/ <comment><USER2> This is btw the ASN of GitHub: [https://bgp.he.net/AS36459#_asinfo](https://bgp.he.net/AS36459#_asinfo)

From the peering tab I would guess that they use Telia, NTT, Verizon and Level3 as transit providers, the others seem to be regular peerings. Transit- wise it seems to be a good mix.

They are very focused on the NA market, seems to be Europe is not really relevant or important for them, otherwise they would operate a PoP there and peer at the biggest internet exchanges of the world (DE-CIX, AMS-IX, LINX) to improve their network quality.

<comment><USER3> Sadly they don't care and the traffic is really bad when america is waking up here... (Paris, France)

~100kb/s for cloning large projects is killing me sometimes

<comment><USER2> Location doesn't matter as much as your ISP. If GitHub would have a peering with your ISP or'd buy transit from them the speed would be way better, even from Europe to the west coast.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> A classic paper on network operator relationships: "The Art of Peering: The Peering Playbook" [http://morse.colorado.edu/~epperson/courses/routing- protocol...](http://morse.colorado.edu/~epperson/courses/routing- protocols/handouts/peering.playbook.v0.9.pdf)</comment>


IPhone 4 Class Action Lawsuits Begin - <AUTHOR> http://www.pcworld.com/article/200259/iphone_4_antenna_issue_the_class_action_lawsuits_begin.html?tk=hp_blg

<comment><USER2> It's only been out a week or so... If you are unhappy with your iPhone then bring it back to the store and get a full refund. Simple.

This culture of lawsuits baffles me.

<comment><USER3> I don't know what's more sad -- the people who dream up these lawsuits or the lawyers who take the cases.

<comment><USER4> The world is full of opportunistic parasites. Having a legal system that encourages it is the real travesty.

<comment><USER5> Encourages seems a little strong. I'd say the legal system doesn't encourage this behavior, but rather allows it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm an iPhone 4 owner and I don't think I've experienced this problem, am I in a minority here? The phone is an incredible piece of tech. Don't punish people for innovation or we will all be walking around with worse devices.

<comment><USER7> I think the problem is that there's a suspicion Apple knew about the antenna problem before launch, but launched it anyway.

Still, if it hasn't been a problem for you, keep it and enjoy it. If it has, return it. No need for frivolous lawsuits.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> In my mind this sort of lawsuit highlights almost everything that is wrong, counterproductive or idiotic about our society/modern mentality.

:(

<comment><USER9> So, when Rome was just a shell of its former self, where was the best place to be? One could use the answer to that as an analogy to answer the question of where we should go if our society is failing. (Western industrialized society.)

<comment><USER10> When Rome was falling, no place in the Western World was particularly good. The best you could do was bail for a small, out of the way place, such as Iberia, or travel East and live in China, too far away to be affected.

But a few idiots do not make a failing civilization. If it did, no one would be safe.

<comment><USER9> It's widespread idiocy that worries me.

The answer to my question: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire>

Perhaps there would be a haven someplace deep within the sphere of influence of the next dominant power to arise. The trick is to find someplace that will roll-over and submit without armed resistance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> The Xbox also had class action lawsuits filed regarding "red ring of death" issue, but at least you can still use your iPhone with this issue.

This is what irks me about the description of the iPhone's antenna as a "fatal design flaw". If there's a line between defective design as opposed to just a minor issue, it looks like the iPhone4's antenna suffers from the latter. Do we get class action lawsuits against Microsoft for Windows crashes? Or Android over its lousy music player? Do those flaws get this much attention? Why not just sue AT&T for dropped calls? It's essentially the same result as the iPhone antenna problem.

</comment><comment><USER12> Will the Apple store readily exchange your iPhone 4 if it demonstrates this problem?

</comment><comment><USER13> Anyone else notice that the law firm is using Wordpress for their blog, and also using the Wordpress "W" in Dante font for their own logo?

</comment><comment> Ryan-R Is it so much to ask to just hold it different? There is no way they will win this case.

<comment><USER14> Yes, that is too much to ask for, but a lawsuit is also completely overkill. If the thing doesn't work, take it back for a refund. Done.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> That is another blow to Apple and it just got even more serious. the iPhone 4 has brought bad chi to Appleworld.

</comment><comment><USER16> I'm convinced all this noise being made over the iPhone 4 "defects" is a very sophisticated PR push by Apple's competitors. My iPhone 4 hasn't dropped any more calls than my 3GS did. Maybe it's just me.

<comment><USER17> If they were actually that sophisticated, they'd be making better products.</comment></comment>


Tool of the Day: Tweetizen: Cut through the chatter on Twitter - <AUTHOR> http://www.usefultools.com/2009/08/cut-through-the-chatter/

<comment><USER2> It looks like exactly the same thing as <http://www.twibes.com> which seems to have been around a bit longer and have more momentum behind it. But competition can be a good thing.</comment>


Natural Cycles: Contraceptive app blamed for 37 accidental pregnancies - <AUTHOR> http://www.whimn.com.au/talk/news/this-contraceptive-app-is-being-blamed-for-37-accidental-pregnancies/news-story/80297da6cb1baaa806c3762fdc6a1dd2 <comment><USER2> You know what they call women on the rhythm method - mothers</comment>


Large Scale Experimentation – Stitch Fix Algorithms Blog - <AUTHOR> https://multithreaded.stitchfix.com/blog/2020/07/07/large-scale-experimentation/ <comment><USER2> Great Insight. How much sample have I wasted in the past?

</comment><comment><USER2> great insights. How much sample have i wasted in the past?</comment>


Bootstrapping a slightly more secure laptop [video] - <AUTHOR> https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8314-bootstraping_a_slightly_more_secure_laptop <comment><USER2> In summary: Coreboot+Linux as a bootloader

I think I've seen this before in an HPC context. But they've build a firmware distribution called Heads. It boots using coreboot then fires up a Linux kernel from flash.

The kernel is then used as a second stage bootloader. It takes about 2 seconds to get Linux booted from flash.

They can then boot the system OS, optionally using kexec to smoothly transition to the system kernel.

Very neat! Along the way they've also done other important work, like put together a minimal firmware for the Management engine (a second CPU in Intel system with its own OS, and many many issues).

The biggest problem here is same issue that coreboot has. Coreboot support is really limited. I think it down supports Lenovo X220s, but late time I looked not much modern hardware.

<comment><USER3> > put together a minimal firmware for the Management engine

I thought that management engine CPU was still a black box, and the best anyone has done is neuter the firmware running there by judiciously zeroing bits out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Slides -> [https://lab.dsst.io/slides/33c3/8314.html](https://lab.dsst.io/slides/33c3/8314.html) Slides(pdf)->[https://lab.dsst.io/slides/33c3/slides/8314.pdf](https://lab.dsst.io/slides/33c3/slides/8314.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER5> What would be really interesting is to use this with a UAF/U2F. The TPM produces a value, this value could be used the same way the domain name gets used in 'normal' UAF/U2F (as the AppID). The UAF/U2F authenticator would only sign the challenge if the TPM is correct, saving you from the Evil Maid attack. This the same mechanism that protect from phishing in the web.

Then you can validate the signed token, and if everything is correct you can use the TPM value to decrypt the harddisk.

Right now I am using my remembered password plus static password mode of my Yubikey to have a fake 2FA decryption requirement on boot but UAF/U2F would be way cooler.

It there something wrong with this idea?

<comment><USER6> Essentially no, you are not wrong.

I am working on setting up a system with a YubiKey 4 in this way. Apple FDE can accept a certificate for verification. Or simply the password.

I haven't set up LUKS like this in a long, long time. But I will get there soon..

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> An unrelated but interesting point he noted was that Apple are one of the only vendors that provide long term firmware updates (he mentioned 8 years). It's a shame nobody else really does this.

</comment><comment><USER7> Secure _what_? Please add "laptop" to the title as it is on the original.

<comment><USER8> Sorry about that, added.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> pinging 'dang and co, typo in title

<comment><USER10> Does that even work? Have they got some code on the back end that alerts as soon as an admin name is mentioned? Or do you just assume they read everything? (Do they!?)

<comment><USER11> [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

        Please don't post on HN to ask or tell us something (e.g. to ask us
        questions about Y Combinator, or to ask or complain about moderation).
        If you want to say something to us, please send it to firstname.lastname@example.com.

But the title of the talk is actually "Bootstraping [sic] a slightly more secure laptop." Look at the first slide.

<comment><USER12> … and now we've lost the word "laptop".</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Apple product user experience and the 30% subscription charge (Charlie Brooker) - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/28/charlie-brooker-pfroblem-with-macs

<comment><USER2> The title for the piece was "I don't hate Macs, but they do give me a syncing feeling" when I read it this morning. Can we please avoid editorialising post titles?

<comment><USER3> I don't see that the current title ("Apple product user experience and the 30% subscription charge (Charlie Brooker)") is editorialised. I see it as more descriptive than the original cutesy newspaper headline ("I don't hate Macs, but they do give me a syncing feeling" --- Ooh! It has a pun! In the headline! Can we be a real tabloid newspaper now please?).</comment></comment>


Is Stack Overflow allowing ads to use fingerprinting to track users? - <AUTHOR> https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/332974/is-se-allowing-ads-to-use-fingerprinting-to-track-users <comment><USER2> I love how the onus is always on the end user to find and report the "bad" ads. How on earth did that insane status quo become acceptable and widespread? The user is expected to know how to unminify and read JS in order to figure out if they are being screwed or not? Seriously?

The first time I got served malware via web ad was in 1998. I started manually blocking ads by modifying my hosts file that day. Haven't stopped blocking since.

It's a broken model, stop forcing it down our throats and stop shrinking the definition of "bad" advertising.

<comment><USER3> Yeah, if people want to put all the pressure on me to decide which ads are reasonable then I'm just going to block all ads and move on.

<comment><USER4> what is the copyright status of all the user contributions on all the stack exchange platforms? I would love to see a decentralized p2p stack exchange platform with LaTeX support, i.e. a stand-alone client...

</comment></comment></comment><comment> u-dissolve tosdr.org (Terms of service; didn't read) is a website that simplifies website's Terms of Service and Privacy Policy to make it easier for people to read.

Stack Overflow is given the lowest rating (class E) in terms of user rights. (For reference, even Google has a class C rating.) Here are the worst points taken from SE's privacy policy:

* This service allows tracking via third-party cookies for purposes including targeted advertising.

* You agree to defend, indemnify, and hold the service harmless in case of a claim related to your use of the service.

* This service forces users into binding arbitration in the case of disputes.

* Many third parties are involved in operating the service

* The service may use tracking pixels, web beacons, browser fingerprinting, and/or device fingerprinting on users.

* Blocking cookies may limit your ability to use the service

* You waive your right to a class action lawsuit

* This service can share your personal information to third parties

* The court of law governing the terms is in a jurisdiction that is less friendly to user privacy protection.

* The service can sell or otherwise transfer your personal data as part of a bankruptcy proceeding or other type of financial transaction.

* The service uses your personal data to employ targeted third-party advertising

* This service retains rights to your content even after you stop using your account

[https://tosdr.org/#stackoverflow](https://tosdr.org/#stackoverflow)

<comment><AUTHOR> They also promised a profile option you could use to opt-out of arbitration... but never actually implemented it.

[https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333388/what-is- the-...](https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/333388/what-is-the-status- of-the-secure-electronic-opt-out-of-the-mandatory-arbitration)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> But won't somebody think of the poor businesses who'll surely be driven to ruin if they can't track my every step?

These people keep shitting in the well, and yelling at us for buying bottled water.

<comment><USER6> I think if the next few years are going to be entertaining. At the moment a handful of shitty companies are abusing their ability to track users - but for me (and I think for many non profit-affected nerds) the outcome seems clear: ANY AND ALL third-party script have to go.

Even when that means losing all the third-party goodness (CDNs, analytics, cloud providers...) that we've come to depend on. Yep, they save an uncountable amount of time and effort - but at the cost of tracking users' every step... We can't have one without the other!

<comment><USER7> Honestly, if all third party scripts are blocked, the ad networks will just start making their participant sites serve the javascript direct and/or run local applications to proxy the data back to them. And unfortunately most management will force the changes through, because they want in on that ad revenue gravy train.

<comment><USER8> This is much harder to do, especially in larger enterprises where changes can take months. This includes updates and bug fixes.

If this is where we push the industry, it will be a huge win for users.

<comment><USER9> I'm willing to bet that IF this happens it'll amount to a lot of companies just including something like this on every page:

        <?PHP echo(file_get_contents("http://google.com/nefarious_crap.html")); ?>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It is ironic that just after I read this item I opened Safari and discovered that the latest update (Safari 13.0) had removed all protection from trackers, malicious advertisers, and unwanted media that I had previously used. So without notice I would be exposing my computer to those hostile elements if I hadn't noticed.

This is not what I want - Apple has done a bad thing.

<comment><USER11> See the post on content blockers from a few days ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21025252](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21025252)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I miss the days when you could simply buy an ad spot on a specific site for X days/months (no targeting, except when choosing what site to buy ad space on, an no javascript, just regular banner ads).

Is there still a market for these kind of low-tech ad buys these days?

<comment><USER13> You can probably do it, but your competitor who do target users will end up with $30 CPA and you will get $300 (or worse). So, unless you are ok with x10 user aquisition cost, you will quickly stop doing it.

<comment><USER14> To say nothing about the fraud. If you can't link clicks to buys, you will quickly find yourself paying for bot clicks

<comment><USER5> /u/cj specifically lamented the lack of pay-for-time, not pay-per-click. Of course you have to track to accurately reward on a pay-per-click basis - that's why pay-per-click is a shitty model.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Remember when many of these businesses started out with a "don't be evil" mindset? The incentives always end up chasing the money in the end...

<comment><USER16> Is it possible to take an investment and continue to follow this mindset? Bootstrapped companies can afford to do it, but investors will not be happy to find out that they are losing money.

<comment><USER17> > investors will not be happy to find out that they are losing money.

You can run a business ethically without losing money. I think what such investors won't be happy about is that you aren't making money _fast enough_.

<comment><USER18> Which is kind of a point of taking VC money; if they wanted you to grow sustainably, they'd tell you to get a loan from a bank. These days I treat "took VC funding" as a negative when evaluating whether to commit to using a service.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Isn't the definition of fingerprinting something to personally identify you? There's only one person connected to every fingerprint, and it's there to identify you across websites. That's what PII means to me. How can stack exchange say fingerprinting isn't collecting PII? I wonder what they _would_ call PII.

<comment><USER20> How can I take your fingerprint (IP, user agent info, etc) and trace it back to you as a person?

<comment><USER19> How can you take my literal fingerprint and trace it back to me as a person? Or even my name? There are tons of people with my name. It's still PII.

You do it by matching it up to other records with my fingerprint or name.

<comment><USER20> I can't. Neither can SO.

<comment><USER18> But some of the countless third parties perusing that data can.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Hmm... this appears to be an intentional and conscious decision on the part of SO. I guess that means I'm done with SO.

</comment><comment><USER21> It seems like our browsers need a sandbox mechanism for 3rd party js to restrict a) dom access b) ajax

Of course, I use uMatrix for that at the moment, but it'd been better if we, as users, can tell what sites are _actually_ interested in providing privacy, by hobbling advertising antics from the get go.

</comment><comment><USER22> Am I the only one who doesn't care about this kind of tracking stuff? Like I really don't care, is there some reason why I should? I feel like the worst thing that can happen is I get shown more relevant ads. If I use Adblock then it's irrelevant, but if I don't then what's wrong with having targeted ads? A court has already ruled an IP address is not a person, they don't really know it's me, it's just a construct they created that they think is me.

<comment><USER23> The "premium" aggregators I've seen used in some enterprise software campaigns can be extra nasty, I had someone at work forward me a link(over IM) that a competitor sent them targeting our userbase(our company name was in the title of the page, contents of the page was why they were better) since mailing to in email on our domain seemed odd; they sent me a "you visited our site, now call for a demo" email a few minutes later that had my full name, a week later they called my parent's house asking for me (guess it was the only historic phone number associated with my name). Ever since then I have viewed tracking data as unacceptable because the likelihood of misuse is only dependent on how much someone is willing to pay an aggregator to turn a small ID indicator into a person.

Also another court has ruled differently about whether or not an IP address is PII: [http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&doc...](http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=184668&pageIndex=0&doclang=en&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=1406323)

<comment><USER22> Thankfully I am in the US because the EU is nuts. Isn't it their fault all these websites have a stupid cookie warning? People should just accept the fact that using a web browser means cookies.

<comment><USER9> While historically the cookie warnings were only an annoyance these days they often have a (working!) option to reject cookies, giving those popups at least some purpose.

Really though setting cookies isn't the problem, and you don't even need to show a popup according to EU law. You only need that popup if you use the cookies for nefarious things such as sending tracking information to ad networks. Setting a cookie for functional things such as remembering logins has always been allowed without a giant-ass disclaimer and nothing has changed in that regard.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I think devices need better security. Anything that JavaScript can access should be set to default values where they all equal null. Only once a user allows a certain website to access certain data will that data become available to that website. If every browser did this along with the apis for cellphones then users can finally regain control of what is collected.

</comment><comment><USER25> It takes relatively little rep to get the "opt out of ads" privilege on SO.

It would be great to have an "opt out of ads for $nn/no" option, like Google Contributor. The amount to pay could look uncomfortable, though.

<comment><USER26> That only removes the ads that display inline (above the question and between answers), see [0]. The ad that started this controversy was a sidebar ad ([1]).

[0]: [https://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/reduced- ads](https://stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/reduced-ads) [1]: [https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/331960/258777](https://meta.stackexchange.com/q/331960/258777)

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Most adtech is RTB (real-time bidding) where ad slots are auctioned off and filled as you load the page. SO (and publishers) have no real control over the ad payload that comes back. There has been progress to use sandboxed iframes but there's still JS running inside those placements.

The JS won't be going away, it's part of a long supply chain of data, verification, viewability, anti-fraud and other layers baked in. For those saying publishers should do 1st party ads, that would lose them most of their income due to operational and sales overhead and doesn't really prevent everything anyway because they still have to accept the ads advertisers want to run, including the JS from vendors.

However the situation is slowly improving. Adtech has weathered through adblocking, native ads, anti-tracking tech but has failed to police itself because of a lack of consequences. Now there's finally regulatory pressure with GDPR, CCPA, and more that will finally force a change from the outside. I expect many of these issues to be greatly reduced within the next 1-3 years.

<comment><USER28> > For those saying publishers should do first party ads, that would lose them > most of their income

Yes? Does that make it less likely? Less needed? No

If publishers can buy targeted ads with fraud detection, they will. But when they can't (because the idea of the auctioned third party js blob finally dies) there will be money in dumber ads.

What might happen of course is that if someone wants to spend $X on ads that are dumb and untargeted they might as well buy a spot on the side of a bus. Do there would be a flow of ad money back from the web to traditional advertising.

<comment><USER18> > _Do there would be a flow of ad money back from the web to traditional > advertising._

That's not an improvement, because manipulating matter involves using up more resources. For all their problems, on-line ads harm the climate less.

That said, I of course welcome anything that can roll back the current state of on-line advertising. Even dumb on-line ads would still be more profitable than physical ones, and since advertising is a zero sum game, I don't expect the publishers to really lose money on that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> How does this work technically ?

Usually when you submit an ad to a network, you dont get to use your own js or even remote images.

Is it the ad network and not the advertiser doing this ?

<comment><USER17> It's almost certainly the ad network. But the advertisers willingly joined the network, and the site willingly uses the network, so they get blame as well.

<comment><USER18> In fact, all three should get the blame, as all three are in a position to fix the problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Cynical pov: if you don't use an ad blocker, you know you are exposing yourself to this. Why get upset at all?

<comment><USER30> SO used to have non-evil ads and a lot of people who do use blockers whitelisted them on that basis. No more, I guess.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Bad conclusion. Web browsers are written to be fingerprintable. They are deliberately anti-user. Expecting web pages to "just not" is pointless. The solution is to fix the browser.</comment>


Russian Planet - <AUTHOR> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venus-russian-planet-space-agency-chief-claims/ <comment><USER2> By the same unmanned logic- then NASA & ESA may lay claim to much of our local universe, including our Sun. Pay up, usage tax. "NASA's Parker Solar Probe has completed three of 24 planned passes through never-before-explored parts of the Sun's atmosphere, the corona."</comment>