Privilege and Inequality in Silicon Valley - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@rickyyean/privilege-and-inequality-in-silicon-valley-92d455b66860#.voi2xqzg3 <comment><USER4> I had a similar experience starting life with opportunity debt. Single parent family whose mother had no high school education. Have ADD and dyslexia, moved around a lot with a good part my life in subsidized housing, and never graduated from high school. No one teaches you the basics, so that when you do start coming into your own and taking control of your own life you are so incredibly behind your peers socially, politically, and intellectually. I eventually went to community college as a mature student, eventually made my way to university, did a masters and then a PhD at Yale. Through it all I was always one or two steps behind and so many opportunities were missed because I didn't have money. Similarly, now as an entrepreneur I find myself being a little more conservative because you've been through a lot of bad times without a safety net.

<comment><USER5> The main story, this comment, and many other user comments are really interesting and human. Would love to see someone compile a series of them, HONY style. These stories don't get talked about enough in the startup world.

<comment><USER6> Sorry for my ignorance but what's "HONY" style?

<comment><USER7> I think "Humans of New York" [http://www.humansofnewyork.com/](http://www.humansofnewyork.com/)

<comment><USER5> Yes that's the one - pretty amazing stuff.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This sounds very familiar.

When I was in University I didn't understand why some people didn't care about grades and partied so much. When we left school and got into the real world I understood why: they had rich parents with contacts that could get them good jobs or seed capital for their own businesses.

I had lots of ideas and worked in a lot of startups for more than 10 years but now the following phrase from the article describes my situation very well:

"Most of the time, potential founders who share my background tend to work at lucrative jobs in finance or tech until they can take care of everyone in their families before they even dream about taking more risks — if they ever get there."

<comment><USER9> The other possibility is that going to the parties is a good use of time, and that is where many students develop their networks. In addition to that, signalling theory would indicate that what classes you take and how well you do are much less important than the university you attend and the faculty you graduate from.

<comment><USER10> > The other possibility is that going to the parties is a good use of time, > and that is where many students develop their networks.

This was kind of my experience. I went to university two states away from where I grew up, knowing a grand total of one person there. I had the academic end more or less handled, but my first semester at university was the loneliest I've ever been in my life. I made good grades, but otherwise I was miserable, depressed and lonely.

It's easy to meet people in high school. Most high schools are small compared to major universities, and you have classes with those in your grade. Many of them you've been around for years. But now you're thrown into a new setting, with thousands of people. It's hard to make that transition from high school friendships to college friendships.

I spent my freshman fall pretty much just going to class and straight back to my dorm. On the weekends I would go to the football game, but that was it. The rest of the time I watched TV or played on the Internet. It was probably the loneliest I've ever been in my life and, as Christmas came that year I was seriously questioning whether or not I wanted to continue at my university. I had moved two states and five hours away, just to sit around and be lonely.

I told myself going back from Christmas if Spring semester wasn't any better I was going to transfer back home. Well, spring rolls around and one of the guys I'd sat next to in the intro to engineering class invited me to rush his fraternity.

 _Whut?_ I had been pretty vehemently anti-Greek; I was a nerdy computer science guy who liked roleplaying games and science fiction movies - <USER2> really what I assumed "frat" material was. So my first inclination was to say no thank you.

But I then I stopped myself. "What's the worst that could happen?" I asked myself. "The worst that happens is I don't like it, and I've wasted a few hours. No matter what, it beats sitting in my dorm room, in the dark, mindlessly surfing the web."

So I did it. And it turned out to be one of the best decisions I made.

I met so many amazing, awesome people it blew my mind. The guy that ended up being my big brother (for non-fraternity folks, think of a big brother as a mentor) could have been my twin separated at birth - we shared so many arcane interests ( _including_ roleplaying games and science fiction movies - we had a chapter D&D campaign running by the end of the semester).

I was eventually initiated, and throughout the remainder of college, the fraternity was a big part of my social life. It was instrumental in breaking me out of my shell and grounded me in the university community. I ended up graduating, having never again considered transferring. And I learned so many valuable social and leadership skills thanks to being involved in the fraternity.

Fast forward 15 years, and the people I met in the fraternity are still some of my best and closest friends. I still do a couple of concerts a year with group of brothers, and have ever since we were in college together. My big brother was the best man in my wedding a few years back and I was the best man in his wedding last year. Several other brothers were groomsmen as well. Several brothers drove up for my daughter's baptism a couple years, and we still go to gatherings once a year or so.

About eight years ago one of the brothers had his house burn down. We all pulled together and filled up a pickup truck worth of supplies to get them him and family through the tough time until insurance kicked in.

A group of four of us have a long running iMessage group that sees thousands of messages a year, especially involving our sports programs. When I'm watching football, I'm usually doing it with one window on the game and another on the chat window as we follow along. It's like being with your friends at the pub.

And it goes without saying that brothers end up getting jobs from other brothers. I think I know people in every conceivable industry at this point thanks to having met them at university.

Pretty much every major event of my life since I pledged, fraternity brothers have been a part of. All because I took a risk on something I thought I might not like but decided to try anyway. I'm glad I was wrong.

So yes, those raucous parties and silly rituals do serve a purpose. We're social creatures by nature and it's a way of building up your social life, and blowing off the stress of school. Universities are institutions of learning, yes, but we're not there _just_ to learn 24/7, just like I'm not at my job now 24/7\. These things are fun, and they build up your social network.

<comment><USER11> >I spent my freshman fall pretty much just going to class and straight back to my dorm. [...] one of the guys I'd sat next to in the intro to engineering class invited me to rush his fraternity. [...] I met so many amazing, awesome people it blew my mind.

So I find this slightly confusing, because in my experience of university, the fact I was living in dorms already offered me the opportunities to meet people that you're talking about. Pretty much from the day I arrived, people were sat talking in the corridors, and everyone else was as anxious to meet new people as I was, so I don't know how I could have avoided making friends.

That said, I do know that despite my social anxieties, I tend to be pretty comfortable talking to people I don't know that well (if anything, more so than people I do), so that might have made it easier than I realised.

One thing that does occur to me though, is in the UK alcohol is readily available to students. I realise US colleges are hardly dry, but I'd imagine it's not quite the same as the UK, where almost every student will have their own stock of preferred drinks ready for any social occasion.

<comment><USER10> > That said, I do know that despite my social anxieties, I tend to be pretty > comfortable talking to people I don't know that well (if anything, more so > than people I do), so that might have made it easier than I realised.

In retrospect, some of it is probably social anxiety.

But I think the bigger part is simply feeling a lack of connection with other people in the dorm. Other than living together we were all leading entirely separate lives. Different majors, different friend groups, etc. We'd see each other in the evenings but that was pretty much it.

The size of the school (~30k students) also didn't help me - the chances of me sharing a class with someone in my dorm were pretty low. Even big classes like Composition, there's probably 40 different composition classes being taught at any semester. I did have one or two people from my History class in my dorm, but that class had 400 people in the auditorium, so not really conducive to discussions. I was just one fish in a really, really big sea.

It was compounded by being an out-of-state student from a long way away from home. Many of the people in the dorm with me were in-state students, many from the same large high schools in the major cities. They came with a built-in networks of friends, many of whom were in the same or adjacent dorms. I knew one other person from my city at all, and he lived on the other side of campus.

So in my particular case, I had a lot working against me. I have no problems believing many people had a great time socializing in dorm life, but I just couldn't develop a connection with anyone there because of the sheer magnitude of the issues.

Which was kinda why it was so weird my friend invited me to rush. We'd sat next together in Intro to Engineering and chatted a few times, maybe sat together once in the cafeteria and studied for class, but not exactly what I would have called a deep connection. It was really surprising when I was offered that invitation.

In a fraternity, though, you are _forced_ to build that connection. It's pretty much the entire point of the organization. If you want to be a part of the organization, you _have_ to be a part of the brotherhood. You _have_ to develop a connection with those in your pledge class (those who join the fraternity the same time you do), or you drop out or get dropped out.

I started with a smaller number of people that I could get to know (there were 11 people in my pledge class, a much smaller number for me to work with). And because we had tasks to work towards together, both as a pledge class and as an organization, we learned to work together with each other. I can't speak for every fraternity, but mine was super, super big on requiring us to work together. There was only one thing we were ever asked to do as individuals. Every single other thing we were expected to do as a class or as an entire organization. With requirements like that, I couldn't help but get to know people.

I'm not saying this type of thing is for everyone, but it really did work out well for me and for everyone else in my pledge class.

> One thing that does occur to me though, is in the UK alcohol is readily > available to students. I realise US colleges are hardly dry, but I'd imagine > it's not quite the same as the UK, where almost every student will have > their own stock of preferred drinks ready for any social occasion.

My school, a large state university, was actually completely dry (officially, at least). Part of it is the drinking age in the US is 21, so only upperclassmen are even above that level at all. But even if you were over 21, alcohol was prohibited on campus. All the dorms, buildings and grounds were dry.

But this was pretty widely ignored, even by the administration. Generally speaking, as long as you weren't making an ass out of yourself or driving, you were okay. Sophomore year I traded beers with my RA (the person in charge of the dorm) on a pretty regular basis.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This really resonates with me, I was the first person in my family to go to university, and my grandparents had to work multiple jobs when they migrated from Europe in order to survive. My dad did slightly better, but both my parents only had high school education and worked blue collar jobs.

It does make it really hard to change your mindset when you come from this sort of background, when you've achieved more than anyone in your family and therefore can't really talk to them about your ambitions or career objectives.

It sounds awful, but sometimes I wish I had been born into a different family, with highly educated parents I could have amazing conversations with, who would encourage me to achieve and grow even more.

I find I constantly have a mindset of "I'm not good enough" and it's paralysing. I want to interview for the top tech jobs out there, like Google or Facebook, but my brain keeps telling me I'm not good enough, it's awful.

<comment><USER13> > with highly educated parents I could have amazing conversations with, who > would encourage me to achieve and grow even more.... I find I constantly > have a mindset of "I'm not good enough" and it's paralysing.

I went to Medical school and for a period of time was surrounded by people who, for the most part, came from affluent or otherwise successful families. My experience was the opposite of what you might have expected: I met many people who felt like they weren't good enough, whose parents weren't encouraging to them, and in several cases had no relationship with them whatsoever. Which I guess is only to say, if you want to be "Good enough" you just have to accept yourself for who you are and continuously try to be better. If you want to apply for the top tech jobs, you should. And if you fail, you should ask how you can improve, do so, and try again. Ultimately, you can only ever be good enough if you try. Failure isn't a disastrous outcome; its absolutely a part of the process of getting better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I found myself nodding along the whole article.

First, let me say that I am happy where I ended up. I'm successful, enjoy my work, and when I compare my personal income with our family income when I was growing up, it is an absurd multiple.

We were a very poor family in a poor part of the South. I went to a top-10 small private university on a full ride, felt completely alienated and never quite figured out how to function in that environment. I dropped out and moved to San Francisco at what turned out to be a very good time (early 90's), and once Netscape dropped, discovered nobody else knew what they were doing with this web thing either, and more or less faked it until I made it.

At the same time, I have had and do have ideas that others have executed on, that I know I could have made a go at, if only…

The if only list is long, and most of it comes back to self-imposed limitations that I can trace back to how I grew up. Frequently it relates to economic security, but there are other habits of thought that stop me from even getting to worrying about that.

One big one is that I never learned to think about entrepreneurship. A big lesson hammered into me growing up was the importance of "finding a good job", not figuring out how to make my own.

I did start a company in my mid-30s, and we did OK, until we didn't. And that failure (I think) had nothing to do with the habits of thought of a poor kid. But failing in a similar way in my 20s would have left me in a position to learn from that and try again, something I'm unlikely to make a go at 10 years later. I do little things for side income, but those are hobbies.

So it ends up being this thing that doesn't really bother me at this point, but does leave me to wonder what would have happened if I had picked parents from a very different walk of life.

And I am quietly amused when people tell me how they built everything themselves "after a seed from Dad", or "with a great connection I made through a family friend" or similar. Those are impossible blockers for a lot of people, even if they get over some of the habits of mind better than I did.

<comment><USER15> I've known deca-millionaire trust fund kids who ended up broke (or dead).

I've known immigrants who started with nothing and ended up fantastically independently wealthy.

And the vast, vast majority of people who settle somewhere near the middle.

What nobody teaches you is: it's all about luck.

Below that, the fine print: the harder you work and the more you sacrifice, the luckier you will get.

''If only'' works both ways. If only - then I would have been successful in some way. If only - then I wouldn't have met the partner who I fell in love with. It works both ways but people tend to overweight the negative (regret) and underweight the positive (gratitude). All you can do (young, old, or in between) is get up every day, be realistic about where you are and where you want to be, and keep moving forward.

<comment><USER16>
        it's all about luck

Bullshit. Luck sure goes a long way, but so do working very, very hard and smart and making course corrections and constantly doing things people say will fail.

<comment><USER17> 99% of the time, when you do something that lots of smart people say will fail, you fail. People look at that 1% and conclude that if you just keep whacking your head against a brick wall, it will eventually turn into gold, completely ignoring the combination of smarts, habits, _and_ the sheer dumb luck that are actually behind success. But the gutters are full of ambitious failures.

<comment><USER16> Ambition != working hard and smart

Spoken like a critic. Not a producer. I know lots and lots of smart people who know how to criticize but not to create.

<comment><USER17> Yeah, that's a standard rhetorical catch-22. Virtuous people always succeed, so anyone who doesn't succeed is by definition not virtuous--the system works! It's the same kind of thinking as "If God doesn't answer your prayers, it's your fault for not praying hard enough," or "Communism cannot fail, it can only be failed."

<comment><USER16> Nothing to do with virtue. I have seen bad people succeed with the same techniques. Please read more carefully before you make irrelevant remarks. This does not serve you well.

<comment><USER17> "Virtuous" was obviously shorthand for "working very, very hard and smart and" etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> There's a strong thread of meritocracy in the tech community, but there is no such thing. When you choose the clearly better developer over the other, you're often choosing the one who had better resources growing up, not just natural ability. The poorer developer may have had a natural advantage over the other one, but didn't have the money to develop it as much. So you're really just selecting for wealth all over again.

This is what's behind the achievement gap anxiety: Wise rich people don't want to perpetuate a world where only money selects success. It's wasteful and ultimately unsustainable.

<comment><USER19> >There's a strong thread of meritocracy in the tech community, but there is no such thing. When you choose the clearly better developer over the other, you're often choosing the one who had better resources growing up, not just natural ability.

You're using an overly restrictive definition of "merit". When you hire the best person for the job you're hiring based on merit. How they got there isn't really that important from your perspective as an employer. That's a meritocracy.

<comment><USER20> So could we then say based upon your comment and the parent that a meritocracy is antagonistic to diversity. Not trying to be argumentative, just more of a thought exercise. If a meritocracy chooses the best, and the wealthiest tend to have the resources and opportunity to make themselves better, then always choosing based upon merit means favoring less diverse backgrounds. Additionally, we tend to always view ourselves as 'having merit.' So we will also be predisposed to choose people like ourselves further hindering diversity. I personally have always favored the idea of being meritocratic, but am also leaning more toward purely favoring diversity, not diversity of superficial attributes, but the diversity of peoples background. I feel it helps to expand the breadth of knowledge of the team and avoid blindspots.

<comment><USER19> >So could we then say based upon your comment and the parent that a meritocracy is antagonistic to diversity.

Yes, I would say that's the bias. It's human nature to allocate your resources to give your children the best possible start in life. In poor societies that may be as simple as feeding them when you yourself go hungry. In our society it means scheming to get them into the best college or giving them seed money to start a business.

I would note that making alterations to promote diversity don't change that, either. They just distort the system such that people with resources game the system in unproductive ways. A good example is all those "women and minority owned" businesses that get preferential treatment in government contracting. From what I can tell nearly all of them are headed (wink wink) by the wife of a white guy with a relatively upper class upbringing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I believe this man is confusing lots of things.

I had lived in China for more than 5 years, Boston, Japan or Korea for more than 9 months each.

In my opinion, minimizing conflict has nothing to do with being poor, and a lot with being Chinese educated.

On the contrary, I volunteer helping poor kids like Spanish gypsies or Subsaharan African and they(and their parents) are ultra confident, and spontaneous. Being open is the default thing for them.

I managed Chinese people in China and there was a world of difference between natives and those Chinese educated overseas.

When living on the US, I was shocked to see parents cheering their kids for the most stupid thing, when in Europe as a kid you are forced to do 4x more effort without rewards at all(like learning multiple languages). It is just what it is expected from you.

In Asia, this pressure over kids is even higher than in Europe.

Family is very important for Chinese almost a religion. This has advantages and disadvantages. For innovation, it is a big disadvantage. Innovation means taking risks, being close to your family means having to convince lots of people those risk are worth it. Most people won't understand you and it is very hard.

In the US, everybody is on their own, basically, nobody gives a dam, which is great for changing the world.

<comment><USER22> Minimizing conflict is just one minor tangential point in his essay. The main thing, which I think you might have missed, is the insane pressure of being poor and having no fallback and constantly worrying about money. I do think that since he hasn't been not poor growing up, he doesn't realize that the opposite state in many ways can have its own detrimental effects on motivation

<comment><USER16> Nailed it. Source: have successful self-made career and Asian family.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Ricky mentions the guilt at not cashing out on his Stanford degree immediately and providing for his family.

Day-to-day, how do founders in similar positions coming from cultures with tight-knit families address this? Especially as parents age?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Has anyone done a survey of the family socio-economic status of startup founders and early employees? I'd be curious to see how many founders/early employees are from low-income families, whether their parents graduated college, etc. If not, I'd love to create one.

<comment><USER24> I'd like that survey. The lower class is completely unrepresented in tech. It's been one of the weirdest and hardest things for me to handle personally.

<comment><USER25> You know what's weird and uncomfortable sometimes? Going to lunch with your co-workers and listening to them talk about the awful problems of their lives, like how they wish their maids could come twice a week instead of every two weeks, and how difficult it is that they have to pay [my salary * 0.5] for their kid's private school. How worried they are about things like the stock market and how high the property taxes on their million dollar homes are. Total culture shock, not coming from money.

<comment><USER26> My dad returned from combat in WW2 where 80% of his group were casualties and he expected to die in combat. He said he was amused at the triviality of everyday concerns. "What's your problem, you're not going to die tomorrow!"

And really, if you're able-bodied and able-minded and nobody is trying to kill/maim/imprison you, then life is good. I went to retrieve the mail this morning, and was greeted with a bright blue sky, and an eagle sitting on top of a nearby doug fir tree giving me the eye. Pretty damn awesome to be alive.

<comment><USER27> There are a lot of us out there with similar backgrounds, yet when you tell people that any day that you aren't being shot at, or blown up or starving is a good day, they look at you like you are crazy.

<comment><USER28> I had to learn to just not share things about my life with coworkers. It's very alienating though.

This is actually a bond that I find I have with many people I know who grew up here in New York and work with mostly transplants (I'm not bashing transplants...).

I know a lot of people across a wide class divide. I've done some interesting stuff and I've also been in scary/dangerous situations that seem normal to me. The times I've mentioned them I've seen people go wide-eyed and get very uncomfortable.

I really hate the fact that I feel like I'm walking on egg shells whenever I'm not talking exclusively about work with them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> What was that axiom that Red Auerbach was attributed with? "You can't teach height." Ricky demonstrated he was hungry to learn and succeed at a very early age, a quality that will always bring some level of success through life: "I had to bring my dad to the office the next day and told him to pretend to say some words in Mandarin while I just demanded that I get put in an honors-level English class."

How do you identify those who are underprivileged, but carry that quality too? It can be very difficult to identify.

</comment><comment><USER30> I grew up other side of the world, amazing by what I heard in the news - <USER3> there existed a world beyond mine where smart people with smart ideas built great companies overnight. I am smart. I have merit. I dropped out at 19, taught my self how to code, and built a 6-figure business with my projects online. I want to learn more.

I got turned down by 15+ companies and startups in the past few weeks because they couldn't sponsor my work visa. This is Canada.

The USA? Being a dropout makes me ineligible for any US work visa.

So much for merit.

<comment><USER31> Have you looked into remote jobs? Honestly, moving to the US is overrated. I'm staying in a developing country myself. Get 50% of a US salary, live on the other aide of the world, live a laid back and cheap life.

<comment><USER30> I want more than a laid-back life. I already make more than an SF-salary. The opportunities to grow and learn are very little in a developing country. I've learnt more from 2 months spent in SF than I did 5 years in my country.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Excellent post. But I feel that we need to go beyond talking about what we can personally do to improve our situation. Either the vast majority of people are ill-adapted for success, or something else is going on. I think we should go beyond the classic argument "If we just all recycle, the world will..." Or "If we all buy electric cars, global warm....".

This post had some of that individualistic attitude to a much broader and obviously systemic problem.

</comment><comment><USER33> As someone who grew up in the exceptionally poor, rural South I'm not sure what to take away. I don't know anyone who was able to go to Stanford despite bad grades in high school. That's an enviable luxury.

</comment><comment><USER34> Great read.

I've become allergic to words like "privilege" as they usually are seen in the company of ill-thought-out and grandiose/insulting/wrong proclamations about How Things Should Be Done,

..but this is none of that - it's an honest look and deep analysis of someone's experience.

And knowing how important upbringing is, and the sheer (almost superhuman) tenacity the author had to go through to even partially overcome the (poisonous? non-optimum?) mindset that was completely a result of things out of their control...

what the heck is everyone else supposed to do? How does society do right by people like this? Overall, we're pretty horrible at dealing with things that are as subtle as mindset.

<comment><USER35> To be honest, one thing you can do is retrain yourself to be un-allergic to words like "privilege", and see their use as the consequence of a lot of people's suffering systemic unfairness and injustice.

When I see that word, "privilege," especially tied to attacks on white/male/hetero/whatever, my response isn't "oh jeez, not that again".....it's "yeah, that _is_ a problem, and I really wish the other white male hetero folks in the room could see it and not just roll their eyes".

It sounds like you want to be an ally, and that's great. I think the hardest part is probably recognizing that when people talk about privilege, it's really not personal, it really isn't about you, even though you're a beneficiary of it every day. Knowing about systemic injustice and doing nothing/remaining silent, though, that's pretty callous, and knowing about systemic injustice and perpetuating it, well, then it would be about you.

<comment><USER36> Or you could stop using the fact that someone is white, male, or straight as some kind of attack, insult, or excuse.

There are certainly issues in society, real problems but I'm tired of hearing it. Somehow all of my hardships in life are reduced to nothing, because I'm "privileged".

<comment><USER37> "...if you think having privilege means that you're a bad person, or that you haven't had struggles, or that you haven't worked hard for what you have – then I can totally feel why you might be frustrated. If that were the case, then yes, it'd be completely unfair of me to claim that all white people or straight people or men or people of any other dominant group are living easy off their unearned privileges.

But having privilege doesn't mean any of those things."

Maisha Z. Johnson, [http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-privilege-really- me...](http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-privilege-really-means/)

<comment><USER38> That's the formal definition, used when being scrutinized. The angrier one is far more common in real life debate.

[http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and- word...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-words-words- words/)

<comment><USER39> Does it being said in anger make it any less applicable?

<comment><USER40> It's usually used to quash disagreements. As in "check your privilege." It's often used as a way to categorically exclude people from a discussion, and this sense is the "angry" sense. So yes, it's less applicable because it's used as a shortcut to avoid forming a real understanding with someone else.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> interesting take. I'd like to hear what PG and others think. Coming from a middle class background, I can relate a bit and see-observationally-the other components to what Ricky's calling "mindset inequality". It's almost like "new money" vs folks that have bigger dollars to spend growing up. I know a lot of friends that have deeply entrenched psychological elements they need to overcome before reaching that "next level" that were engrained because of their upbringing. And, to Ricky's post, it's sometimes more of a challenge than the monetary differentials.

<comment><USER42> My parents started out very poor and climbed into the middle class by the time I got to high school. The extended family is still poor, so I'm still exposed to how they think about money. I think the mindsets can break down into three levels, but not cleanly.

Poor: You may have to make decisions about which bills to pay or which needs to meet, and being able to pay all your bills and eat is considered a moral virtue. Money is naturally transient, because your obligations have similar weight to your income, and having excess money in your bank account is weird, unnatural to the point that your instinct is to spend it before it goes away. If you use a budget, line-items are on the size of a grocery trip. You're more likely to budget small purchases than large purchases. If you are trying to build savings, putting money into a savings account is another bill.

Middle class: Your bank account is the intermediary between your bills and income, with a mean and a natural trajectory. If your account's trajectory is positive, your natural instinct is to spend it, either on better lifestyle or a large purchase, very occasionally savings. If you have a budget, components are like "monthly food" and you deal with going over-budget by cutting a few more corners next month. Savings are still another bill. Putting the right amount into your savings account to retire in 40 years is a moral obligation.

Capital class: Interest on your earnings is your primary source of income. Your rate of spending must be lower than the rate you earn interest; to do otherwise is dipping into capital, which is morally wrong. Any interest you don't plan to spend is folded back into your capital, giving you a small, permanent raise. I don't understand this class too well because I'm still working on entering it.

<comment><USER43> I am planning a transition from middle class to capital class, which will take 10-20 years and require investing in real estate.

Real estate is a great investment (at least in Australia) because it allows you to get access to larger amounts of credit to purchase assets which will generally go up in value over time because of the policies of central banks to target inflation. In addition buying in the right location will insure that on top of location future scarcity will add more value to the investments.

It is also super transparent compared to stocks, where you don't really know what is going on inside a company, land is land and all the data you need to assess the investment is available. And you can control the asset (think renovations, rebuilds, subdivisions etc.) so there is more you can do compared to the stock (buy, and perhaps short the similar stocks)

The downside to real estate is you have to be a little bit patient. Did I mention 20 years? :-)

<comment><USER42> I've heard that being too keen on real estate is a common pitfall for middle class investors. Between that and personal bias, I'm avoiding it (at least directly).

My portfolio is primarily stocks, which I find surprisingly easy to work with. You just pick well-run companies in fields you understand, ignore financial news, and wait. I should be capable of living off interest in four years.

<comment><USER44> _I 've heard that being too keen on real estate is a common pitfall for middle class investors._

I'm in US but I agree. I'm not old enough yet (I hope) but most of friends' parents lost all they had later in their life and from what I heard they were heavily into real estate. Some owned few houses and others worked as realtor.

For those that owned houses, they were extended too thinly and couldn't sell fast enough to cover mounting interest and cost when economy tanked, resulting in bankruptcy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> "but building and sustaining a company that is "designed to grow fast" is especially hard if you grew up desperately poor"

Most people don't have the money or resources to build a company like this, which is why we have VC. They know you are in a desperate situation and exchange the money that you need for a % of the company.

The better thing to do is choose a solid business idea that can be built slowly and at a certain point, put money you make from this venture into an idea that needs more capital to succeed.

</comment><comment><USER16> Made me cry. Much of it rang true. Story has similarities except about 1/5th as traumatic and am a white dude who grew up here. Have done well financially but have a compromised home situation traceable to some of the same causes.

</comment><comment><USER46> An old friend and I were talking a few weeks ago and I smiled when he said "We were so poor growing up we didn't even realize we were poor." And we didn't, we were so poor we couldn't even pay attention. It's was good tho. It's still easy for me to live in a tiny apartment and exist on a steady diet of eggs'n'oatmeal, apples, and frozen chicken bought in bulk.

</comment><comment><USER47> There might be many more success stories if children growing up closer to the poverty line were able to do so in more nourishing environments. However, discouragement, lack of confidence, anxiety are things not restricted to any racial or economic background. Not having a silver spoon is in many ways a better environment in which to be raised.

The OP does not say that his parents didn't show him any love, which is more important for the development of a person than any economic status. Many of the other struggles might be used as fuel for building positive character traits, unless one doesn't let it.

Having read through the post, it doesn't appear that he's actually arrived at a valid point, and is just trying to brand himself as being underprivileged through the telling of his life story, which has turned out to be successful by most standards. He uses the argument that "mindset inequality" gave him a chip on his shoulder so he was able to succeed, and therefore others fail because of it, which seems contradictory.

</comment><comment><USER48> I was soft in my earlier comment, but fine taking a rep hit.

This is not the only post recently where the topic is "oh golly gee, look at the hardship I went through to get through college and the found something."

It's a millennial post, and there have been many of them.

Going through college is a challenge ... Having to work or be responsible during such sucks (I interned at Borland as well as worked for an astronomical research company).

Post college, more than a few have to deal with life obligations that come up.

Our profession certainly offers a bit of a cushion and flexibility, but we have to manage that and our obligations.

I don't see someone here whining about having to support their parents due to the last downturn or the many other personal decisions made.

The blog would have been better written as challenges met and overcome and left out the for lack of tact whiny bits...

Yes, coming from poverty has challenges, and friends in such stretched into their late 20s to complete a degree...but perspective and awareness of the wider world is needed... Not another post about personal insecurities..

</comment><comment><USER49> He conspicuously missed the part where time spent working a job, studying and generally acting like a responsible adult is time not spent networking.

The "poor" kids also tend to find each other at college and over the first few semesters form separate networks from the rich kids. People tend to want to hang out with people who are similar to them. One group goes out partying together, the other sits in a dorm room listening to music and drinking a $15 handle. Their friend groups don't overlap over much.

The poor kids tend to build networks where the members personal skills and resources they bring to the table in the present are important (or that was my observation). I guess when you can't throw money at a problem knowing who's the IT guy and the car guy becomes more important.

</comment><comment><USER50> Excellent post. We like to think sometimes the underdog wins but sadly, success is typically given to those that were born with it. The unfortunate part to me is the credit they were given as if they were amazing, not born lucky.

</comment><comment><USER51> My favorite line:

> Compare that level of confidence to a kid with successful parents who'd say > something along the lines of "If you can believe it, you can achieve it!" > Now imagine walking into a VC office having to compete with that kid. He's > so convinced that he's going to change the world, and that's going to show > in his pitch.

I enjoyed this article a lot but clearly this guy also made some of his own hardships. Going on ski trips just to fit in and then running out of money is incompatible with the image of a frugal poor kid.

<comment><USER44> Coming from a similar background like the original poster, I agree with him.

And no I didn't run out of money while in college because I went on ski trips. I lived on student loan and credit card just to pay for food and not much else. My parents couldn't send me much money. And yes I worked to earn money while in college, which doesn't help with improving grade. And of course the peers with no money worry can pick and choose non-paying internships or go do something that adds to their resume.

Growing up poor (I mean poor) damages one's psyche that others just don't understand. The degree of severity may vary but combine teen years + seeing parent(s) struggle with money everyday, you have a recipe for a hurt in your heart that lasts your life time that others just don't understand. And this 'hurt' is more noticeable when you know your peers around you are not suffering same issue.

And no I don't advocate for a national program to eradicate poverty.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> > We think this is the reason why poor founders tend not to be successful.

The essay by PG actually meant that there are no poor founders at all. It would be interesting to have statistics on whether poor founders fail more, or don't even get a chance to try at all. I have reasons to believe that the rare poor person is more motivated and determined than the average groomed-to-be middle class entrepreneur, and there are plenty of cases of dirt-poor persons becoming millionaires.

</comment><comment><USER53> It is a good thing that privilege is becoming a topic in these circles. It's fascinating to see how many people still try to present it as looking for excuses. Perhaps because they just don't understand what it really is. Or they need to validate their success by convincing everyone that it is only their hard work that matters and nothing else. Also, beware of survival bias. We don't exactly get to hear about the stories without a happy end here.

</comment><comment><USER54> Im sorry, but if you graduate from Stanford you start near the top of the opportunity heap. Maybe people arent satisified with what they have and want more.

<comment><USER55> That seems uncharitable. Going to a prominent school is a big boost—would anyone deny that?—but it doesn't cancel years of personal or family trauma, or economic or social adversity like the poverty the article is talking about. Indeed the article is all about how those things persist and continue to affect one at depth. If you'd read it with empathy, I think you'd agree, or at least phrase your criticism differently.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> There are a lot of advantages growing up poor, though, too. Learning how to work hard early on, etc.. My parents do not understand how to manage money very well, and they constantly struggled when I was growing up, and continue to do so. But this forced me to learn a better way and helped me in my life.

Also growing up poor gives you an advantage in terms of risk, because you know the worst that will happen is that you will just be poor like you were when you grew up. Once you've been poor, it isn't as scary. I think many rich friends have a nightmarish fear about it and are risk-averse because of this.

There is a lot of guilt, though. I care about my family and want to help them, but giving them money doesn't work - it is wasted. So they remain forever poor and I have money, and I feel bad about it.

</comment><comment><USER57> Paul Graham is my one of my biggest programming heroes. He single-handedly changed the way I think about and do programming about a decade back, and I am eternally grateful for it. One of the biggest lessons I got from him is "succinctness is power". That essay was a game changer both in terms of the math work and the programming work I do.

Here is one instance where that powerful way of thinking runs head on into a stone wall. He said "few successful founders grew up desperately poor" and moved on. Succinct. yes, but not powerful. This piece took a couple thousand words to say the same one succinct thing that PG said, and nails it in terms of the empathy it generates and the power with which it communicates. While PGs writing in this issue comes out as aspie. This is the lesson he needs to take from that latest article and the Internet's reaction, and not that "Life is short" and totally miss the point.

Narrativity and Authenticity and Poetry and Verbosity is power! (when dealing with humans).

</comment><comment><USER44> This story really made me reflect on my own similar past. Growing up poor in US as son of immigrant family and somehow getting into a nationally well known college (public though), I was shocked to see things that I had never known about.

The shock came from seeing how I lacked culture/experience/skills/confidence others had. And these others had grown up in more stable environments with either some or quite a bit of money.

I didn't know how to play any instrument. I wouldn't say everyone I knew in college played an instrument since I wasn't at Standford :) but still it was obvious to me I LACKED the soft skills my peers had.

I had not done many things as a teenager that are possible only when you grow up in a family with some means. And this weakened already not so robust confidence in myself, resulting in a mostly downward spiral as far as confidence in myself.

You see growing up with money buys you a lot of soft skill that helps you later.

I'm not bitter though. It is what it is. I try to be thankful for what I've had so far.

</comment><comment><USER58> As an Indian immigrant when I see people complaining about Privilege and Inequality in SV (and in America) I feel like laughing.

I lived in a society where everyone was almost the same, similar economic status, similar privilege etc. etc. Life sucked. I decided to move out to be among the top 10% instead of one of the 100%. I eventually ended up in SV.

This place is awesome and the very reason I am here is because I can be in the top 10%. I dont want to be equal but I seek privileged, extra-ordinary wealth and stuff that most others can not afford. I think it is an amazing thing that places like SV exist. If you somehow take out that incentive I think I will move somewhere else. Of course I would be moving out of California sooner or later given the taxes.

<comment><USER59> Seriously? What caste did your family belong to?

I'm allowed to ask these questions; the Indian side of my family are Brahmins, and boy does it show! Most of us walked straight from the lawyer/doctor/accountant/businessperson class in India into the lawyer/doctor/accountant/businessperson class in the USA and Canada.

Sure things were difficult, but most of us had huge advantages.

<comment><USER60> I'm curious, why would your caste matter in the US?

<comment><USER61> Because classism is a thing. So is legacy of privilege. Literally all of my Indian co workers have been Brahmin.

<comment><USER62> Agree I know one of the MPs in the UK who help get caste discrimination added to the discrimination laws.

<comment><USER58> This is mostly a Christian missionary driven attempts to marginalize Hindus even further by painting them as evil. From the sense I get it wont go anywhere.

<comment><USER62> Err what re you smoking? it was Asian MP's that piloted the bill through parliament.

<comment><USER58> Yup they are the agents of missionaries in their countries. Look at Bobby Jindal he is asian per say but in reality a hard core christian.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> This is a great article. I'm more of a reader than a co tributor through these articles. I just had to comment on a great, positive post. It makes me want to provide more positive feedback to others to hopefully keep them going.

</comment><comment><USER64> What an excellent post. Respect.

</comment><comment><USER65> One thing striking me was how as s child the author had the "common" responsibility of dealing with landlords bills etc for the family.

It may not be something a startup can solve but "administrivia as a service" \- some means of connecting families who need with someone able to actually advise and not be taken advantage of

In the uk we have a volunteer service called citizens advice bureau - I am thinking something like this on tap might be beneficial in ways hard to quantify

?

</comment><comment><USER66> tldr; In spite of motivation, talent and hard work; financial situation and immigration (in my case) play a big role in your entrepreneurship journey.

Excellent article by the writer. Apologies for the long post, however hope it is helpful for someone in similar situation. I can relate to many things that he has faced and feel incredibly lucky to not have faced some things that he had to.

I grew up in a small town in a poor family in India as eldest of four siblings. Our monthly budget was 20 dollars and things were really tight. However my dad worked really hard 16 hours every day and made sure that my studies do not get hindered. He told me every single day that with hard work I can achieve anything that I can dream of.

I got into IIT Bombay (one of the most prestigious colleges in India). However it was obvious to me, that I need to get a decent paying job right after school to support siblings and my dad who couldn't do 16 hours any more.

It took my the next 8 years working for others, to save enough to pay for the studies and marriage of me and my siblings and to help my dad retire.

During these 8 years, I built and ran the biggest social network to come of of India. Apart from this also built something which is now the Twilio of India. I was also the part of the team which built the current mobile offering at LinkedIn.

If I had financial stability, I would have started working on mine own ventures 3 years into my career. But it took 5 more years. As soon as I had financial stability, I quit LinkedIn (with 2.5 years of stock unvested) to start a company.

I started a company, where we had incredible opportunities. We built something like Slack for consumers around the same time as Slack. However, being on H1 visa, I was a minority stake holder in the company. And it is a bad situation to be in, if your traction is not already proven. It made sense to exit the company, so we sold it to Dropbox in an acqui-hire.

Dropbox treated me really well. I met some of the smartest people I have ever met over there and it can be a great place to work for many people. However, I soon realized that it wasn't a good fit for me. Such companies are very top driven, there is little creative freedom, and most of the work is cleaning up the tangled code developed over 7-8 years. So I quit Dropbox after an year.

Now I am in a job that gives me more creative freedom and I am pretty happy on that front. Meanwhile, I have been sole advisor for a few companies over the past 2-3 years and they are all profitable and didn't need to raise any money. The entrepreneur in me, keeps me raring to go and start another company. However, because I am on H1 visa, I do not want build another company with minority stake at formation (USCIS rules). To fix this, I would need to get a Green Card. However if you are from India, it will take you 8-10 years to get a Green Card in EB-2.

So the next steps are either move from US, or find a way to get a Green Card on EB-1. If anyone knows any good immigration lawyers, please help introduce.

However, related to the original post. In spite of motivation, talent and hard work; financial situation and immigration (in my case) play a big role in your entrepreneurship journey.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ricky's co-founder here. Loved reading about your story-- found it by ctrl-f- ing your name after seeing your comment above :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Props for writing this. Often times I want to tell my (different but similar) story, but never do. I don't know why. It probably has to do with a number of the points you make in the article, so you are a couple steps ahead of me.

</comment><comment><USER68> Forgive me for being a bit sappy here, but this post, and the discussions that it inspired here are _absolute gold_!

It's certainly not the first time I've thought about this topic, but for whatever reason, the OP and much of the discussion is resonating very deeply for me (and apparently for a lot of folks). IMHO, this is some of the most productive discussion about privilege and opportunity that's ever appeared on the internet; for the most part, this discussion has avoided the sort of aggravated competition (i.e. pissing contests) and judgements that generally arise out of internet discussions of privilege. In place of those nastier (albeit very human) responses, this thread is full of empathy, support, and offers of help.

I'm very proud of our little community here today.

I'm planning on writing a more detailed post in a few days after collecting my thoughts a bit more, but I'd like to share some half-formed ideas which this post has inspired (comments and criticisms are very welcome!):

1) Part of what's awesome about this discussion is that it seems to have enabled a bit of ad-hoc group therapy. I think it's very helpful for folks who are facing these hurdles to realize they are not alone; while everyone's situation is unique, it's great that people have been acknowledging similarities in their stories, rather than arguing about the differences. We should try to do more of this (with other contentious topics as well)!

2) As several people have suggested, I believe that collecting these stories could potentially help a lot of people. I'm totally down to build and host a site towards that end - would anyone be interested in sharing their stories in that sort of venue?

3) While the specific issues that people have had to deal with are different, there seems to be some common 'flavors' that many have experienced: a) Socio- economic disparity causing an aversion to risk later in life b) Lack of confidence in oneself which adds an additional handicap compared to more self- confident people, likely resulting in missed opportunities (you can't win if you don't play vs you can't _lose_ if you don't play); impostor syndrome. c) Lack of connections, again likely resulting in missed opportunities and increased difficulty in building new things/finding a job/etc. d) Disparity in access to knowledge that greatly improves chances of success (e.g. importance of SAT scores to college admissions; efficient resource management; interview skills)

Improving the situation in (a) seems to be what the world at large is most interested in. Unfortunately, it's a difficult, heavily politicized, and therefore divisive issue. By contrast (b), (c), and (d) seem like problems that we could really improve, at least within our own community.

For example, someone might have a harder time getting the type of (tech) job that they want due to a lack of personal connections (it can be really hard to get your foot in the door), however, it's likely that the personal connections they need are actually visiting this site every day. While we obviously can't just start providing references for total strangers, how much effort would it be to spend a few hours corresponding with someone and vetting their skills to see if you feel comfortable in recommending them? (I'll put my money where my mouth is on this one - if anyone feels like they'd be a good fit at Cloudera, let's talk! EDIT: just to be clear, I don't really have any hiring authority, but I'm happy to talk to anyone, and potentially help with a recommendation)

Likewise, it seems that (b) could be improved for a lot of people with simple communication - impostor syndrome is very common in tech, so I assume that a lot of people here have advice on the subject, or just an empathetic/sympathetic ear.

Regarding (d), this type of information is all likely available already on the internet, but perhaps it could be more usefully compiled for this particular case, minimizing the number of unknown unknowns? What about a thread (like "Who's Hiring") listing offers for mentorship ("Who Needs a Mentor?") ?

I dunno, am I just being overly optimistic here? It seems to me there's a lot of low-hanging fruit here, if some of us are willing to dedicate a bit of time to it.

More ideas? Criticisms?

</comment><comment><USER69> This article was very real, and I can't help but identify with Ricky, and other stories I've read on here, but it's not just in SV, it's entrepreneurship in general, I thought I'd share my story as well:

I was born in Albania, a small, poor, European country with a GDP comparable to Zimbabwe, Namibia, or Sudan. That same year marked the fall of it's isolated strain of communism, and Albania's borders were opened for the first time since WW2. In the late 90s, after the collapse of its economy and ponzi schemes, social unrest reached its height following the violent murder of peaceful protesters by the government and police. This sparked an uprising and the government was toppled. The police and national guard deserted, leaving armories open, then looted by militia, and criminal gangs, with factions fighting in the streets to take control. My parents moved our beds to the hallway of our small apartment as there were no windows, and my little sister and I had to stay quiet so no one would hear we were there. After a UN operation, the government was restored, and the situation was relatively calm. Sometime that following summer, my dad found out about a US green card lottery, filled out an application form, and because he was in a hurry, handed it to a random stranger waiting in line to submit it for him. He then forgot about it, until a year later, when we got a letter telling us that we had won. My parent's weren't terribly off in Albania, they were comfortable, their friends, families were there, they had great jobs, and the future looked promising. But having just gone through that rebellion, then the Yugoslav Wars to the north trickling across the border, and the allure of the American Dream, they decided it would be best for my sister and I.

We moved to Philadelphia in 2000, in a working class neighborhood, with a few suitcases and not one word of English. My parents took on multiple jobs, their Albanian communist degrees were obviously not recognized in the US, so my dad, once a doctor, is still working maintenance, and shoveling snow in the East Coast, as I write this. Like Ricky said, and like all immigrant kids, my family depended on me to learn english and deal with translation, and everything in between. 5 years later when we became citizens, and received our passports, my parents knew more about American History than was taught in my inner-city high school.

My parents are incredibly supportive, but they moved to the US in their 40s, they weren't familiar with the language, culture, and even more importantly capitalism. Apart from the classic model of education, they weren't familiar with the tools required to be successful in such a strange place like this. But with their meager wages they were happy to support my hobbies, buy me lots of books, and a computer with internet access which taught me much more than my inner city schools.

Eventually I got a college degree, then went on to do a dual-masters in design and engineering at the Royal College of Art and Imperial College in London. I even got to go to Tokyo and work for Sony, while studying there. I graduated this past summer, and then launched my final group project as a startup in London with my friends, two English, Oxford educated engineers, and a Spanish designer/engineer who's father is the president of one of the largest companies in the world.

Then reality sank in, I had to leave, I can't be an entrepreneur just yet, and I moved to SV to find a high paying job in tech for the next 5-10 years, so that I can: a. afford to pay rent b. pay off my educational loans c. pay off my parent's home d. help my sister pay for her education e. send some money home because my dad is getting too old to shovel snow

</comment><comment><USER70> I looked through your past posts, and you are legit!

I liked to that you went to a community college. I too screwed up in high school. I didn't even know why people were taking another test--the SAT. That said, I cleaned up my act in my senior year, but it was too late.

Everything, and a lot more, that I missed in high school, I made up for in two semesters at community college.

If anyone in high school is reading this, and thinking, "I wish I could do it over?". You can! I had a great time at my community college. I saved a lot of money, and met some really wonderful people. The teachers really seemed to care. I didn't find that at the four year school, or even my professional school.

Just make sure to transfer, and get that four year degree. So many people don't transfer to a four year university, or even get the associate degree. Yes, so much of college is absolute bull shit, but degrees are still valued in a lot of professions. It's changing though, and I couldn't be happier. British companies are taking the lead. I know at Penguin books; HR isn't even allowed to know if you went to college, or not. You are hired on your experience, and maybe a test? The way it should be.

<comment><USER55> We detached this comment from [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956322](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956322) and marked it off-topic.

<comment><USER71> I'm just a random reader of HN, but I'm curious here: was that comment edited after it was moved? As it reads now it doesn't seem far outside the tone of the rest of the thread. As always when I ask such things, I ask because I want to know what I'm missing, so I can see it in the future and/or avoid making similar mistakes myself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Finally someone who talks about the consequences of economic inequality. PG seemed to think all that mattered is the causes.

<comment><USER73> It's frustrating, not a single critique I've seen of PG's essay (including this one) seem to understand what he is actually saying.

This essay _supports_ PG's point, it doesn't contradict it. PG's essay calls out "kids with no chance of reaching their potential" as "very bad" aspect of inequality in the fourth paragraph!

What essay did you read?

<comment><USER74> _It 's frustrating, not a single critique I've seen of PG's essay (including this one) seem to understand what he is actually saying._

It's time to start considering that either PG made his point poorly, or that maybe you're the one that didn't understand it. I don't know what other reasonable options there are.

<comment><USER73> If by "PG made his point poorly" you mean "PG didn't communicate in a way that was misunderstanding-proof", I can agree with you. Inequality is an emotionally-charged subject that is prone to misunderstanding. I think PG underestimated how thoroughly the intellectual basis of his argument would be missed once he uttered the words "I've been helping to increase economic inequality."

Most of the critiques of PG accuse him of not caring about poor people. And yet his essay specifically attacks poverty and lack of social mobility:

> Let's attack poverty, and if necessary damage wealth in the process. That's > much more likely to work than attacking wealth in the hope that you will > thereby fix poverty.

<comment><USER75> _I think PG underestimated how thoroughly the intellectual basis of his argument would be missed once he uttered the words "I've been helping to increase economic inequality." Most of the critiques of PG accuse him of not caring about poor people. And yet his essay specifically attacks poverty and lack of social mobility:_

I have to agree with you. I am actually surprised PG tried to even write a second essay to explain the first one and some people still didn't understand it and it led me to this conclusion and points me to Dale Carnegie's " You can't win an argument"..

 _Nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right.

You can't win an argument. You can't because if you lose it, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? Well, suppose you triumph over the other man and shoot his argument full of holes and prove that he is non compos mentis. Then what? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior. You have hurt his pride. He will resent your triumph. And -

"A man convinced against his will

"Is of the same opinion still."_

<comment><USER73> Agreed. People are downvoting my other comments in this thread too -- on a visceral level, people seem to really want to believe that PG doesn't care about poor people.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> "I'm a self made millionaire [0]"

[0] - Apart from the safe suburban upper class childhood, the prep school and Harvard education my parents paid for, the job at Goldman Sachs my uncle got me straight out of school, and the finance network from that experience that eventually helped me with my first funding rounds, but yea, besides all that I'm TOTALLY SELF MADE!

<comment><USER55> We detached this subthread from [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956699](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10956699) and marked it off-topic.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> > No one teaches you the basics

Room for a startup/free service that does that!

<comment><USER76> It's called the Internet. The problem is that people generally don't know what to search for, if they even know they should be learning more about some facet of modern life.

<comment><USER77> This is a ridiculous comment. Certain ways of behaviour, certain nuances, cannot accurately or reliably be picked up through reading online, only through interactions.

<comment><USER78> Reading about a topic involving social interaction can definitely serve as a first step to raise awareness of why you're socially awkward. I'm only slightly ashamed to admit that the Good Guy Greg and Good Girl Gina image macros were a source of basic social enlightenment for me. Once your eyes have been opened you can start to improve yourself by paying attention to those interactions when they happen.

<comment><USER79> "Socially awkward" seems to be a loaded term in your use case. If you are "socially shy", then yes reading would help. But in the case you're not socially awkward in your natural environment (ie you just lived in a different culture), the nuisances are impossible to learn unless you encountered it. Just think of it as a different culture, no East Asian will come to the US without fucking up something small or big a few times, and vice versa. Same for people of different classes.

<comment><USER80> _impossible to learn unless you encountered it_

Why? How can there be such a thing? What is there that prevents someone from recording what they encountered and learned, and passing that knowledge on to others?

<comment><USER79> I don't think the nuance can be conveyed effectively for many reasons (you don't even know something is nuance when you're used to it). But regardless, remember all the jokes about how someone meets their SO's parents for the first time, preparing to not mess anything up, being told everything that needed to be avoid, and end up doing it all wrong? It's similar to that. You actually need practice.

<comment><USER78> > You actually need practice.

I don't think anyone's disagreeing with you regarding the need for practice. Reading, Discussion, and Practice are all part of a balanced education, on _any_ topic. I'm objecting to the notion that there are topics for which the written word is useless.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


The Life and Death of the Creative Computer Virus - <AUTHOR> http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/future/technology/216539-computer-virus-creative-payload <comment> vezzy-fnord For those interested, danooct1 is a YouTube channel devoted exclusively to running old PC viruses, particularly ones that have a novelty and art aspect to them, as was common before.

EDIT: Bleh, I'm an idiot for not noticing "Daniel White" was linked to him in this article.

<comment><AUTHOR> Damn straight, it's an amazing channel.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> I notice that all the raw mp4 files are being shared from Dropbox. Since Dropbox can cut off download links for high traffic files, here are mirrors for each video:

Ambulance Virus: [http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/ambulance_virus.mp4](http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/ambulance_virus.mp4)

Friday the 13th Virus: [http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/Jerusalem- correct.m...](http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/Jerusalem-correct.mp4)

Disk Killer Virus: [http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/DiskKiller.mp4](http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/DiskKiller.mp4)

Stoned Virus: [http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/pcstoned.mp4](http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/pcstoned.mp4)

Data Crime Virus: [http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/Datacrime.mp4](http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/Datacrime.mp4)

Ping-pong Virus: [http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/PingPong2-correct.m...](http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/PingPong2-correct.mp4)

Falling Letters Virus: [http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/TextCascade%20(1).m...](http://mirror.xwl.me/virus_video_archive/TextCascade%20\(1\).mp4)

</comment><comment><USER3> Confession: I wrote a couple of these when I was a teenager, including one that would give you a crazy color scheme and print 'Your PC is on an acid trip' as a DOS error. I put one on a high school PC once and it ended up actually spreading around. They were pranks and weren't designed to really hurt anything, though I'm sure they could be annoying.

It's how I learned assembly language and C actually.</comment>


Chris (Moot) Poole's testimony in the Sarah Palin hacking case - <AUTHOR> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/fbi/turns-out-4chan-not-lawless-it-seems

<comment><USER2> The idea that "4chan isn't as lawless as it seems" is silly. Moot has always said that he'd give the authorities logs and such if they came asking for it with the appropriate warrants in hand. He's always told /b/ that 4chan isn't a shelter from the FBI.

</comment><comment><USER3> The court reporter did a heroic job on this transcript. Not very many misspellings. Can anyone tell what the cross-examination is getting at?</comment>


Homegrown master-master replication for a NoSQL database - <AUTHOR> https://firstname.lastname@example.com/fault-tolerant-processing-of-10m-oauth-tokens-with-tarantool-189323fc5236 <comment><AUTHOR> Wow! Is it really working?</comment>


Ask HN: How long do your software builds take to run? - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> Not including tests it usually takes about 5 minutes. Including integration- tests it's more like 10-15 minutes. That's from a blank slate CENTOS vm.

<comment><AUTHOR> What are the benefits you find from running integration tests?

<comment><USER2> Well they're part of our dev process (TDD) but in this context they're just useful to make sure all the dependencies have loaded, all the right ports are open, all the daemons are running, and everything is functioning as expected. Kind of a double-check after the build scripts run just to make sure nothing failed silently or got corrupted.</comment></comment></comment>


Embed Linkedin profile page to see who visited your website - <AUTHOR> http://audiencestack.com/static/blog-hack-linkedin-to-view-website-visitors.html <comment><USER2> This is why I hate the term "growth hacking". It encourages this kind of behavior.

I'd be curious to know if anyone on HN thinks that this is morally and ethically ok?

What happened to the good old days when "growth hacking" was building a good product that people want to share with each other and then making it easy for them to share?

<comment><USER3> > I'd be curious to know if anyone on HN thinks that this is morally and > ethically ok?

1\. Yes. Absolutely. What could be _morally_ unacceptable about this?

2\. I very strongly believe in business ethics. And consumer protection, and worker protection. I don't think that this, in general, rises to the level of even being an issue with regard to consumer protection _or_ worker protection. I don't know what about this would be unethical.

3\. If you are going to say "user tracking" then I am just at a loss. This is categorically no different than any of the many dozens of user tracking services already in use. Except that, unlike many of those services who are very, very explicitly shady and fly-by-night, LinkedIn is, overall, an ethical player. When I visit NYTimes.com, my ghostery registers:

* Chartbeat * Doubleclick * Dynamic Yield * Facebook Connect * Facebook Custom Audience * Google Analytics * Moat * Netratings Site Census * New Relic * Optimizely * ScoreCard Research * WebTrends

As long as this guy has an appropriately written privacy policy, I see absolutely nothing _legally_ wrong with this, either. Morally - I just don't even know where to begin on how facile a complaint I consider that to be.

<comment><USER4> It is a third party exploiting LinkedIn's tracking to monitor and expose identifiable information about who is visiting their website that LinkedIn probably didn't intend to be public.

Obviously, there are lots of trackers out there. But the fact that those trackers exist, and we're sorta, kinda, maybe ok with it, or at least resigned to it--that doesn't imply that we're ok with any third party using leaks of that information to track us.

Probably the reasonable thing to do is say "if we're ok with X tracking us, we're ok with everyone tracking us, because the information will leak." But that's not the same as saying it's ok for everyone to try and make it leak.

It wouldn't at all surprise me if it's against LinkedIn's TOS, and the author admits as much.

What about this is not unethical?

<comment><USER5> Yes, but let's not forget the 263rd Rule of Acquisition: Never allow doubt to tarnish your lust for data.

<comment><USER6> I am impressed that's the actual 263rd rule in the Ferengi Rule's of Acquisition. Kudos.

<comment><USER7> It's not, the actual 263rd rule is: "Never allow doubt to tarnish your lust for latinum. "

So they replaced latinum with data. Essentially implying that data is money/wealth.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is also why you should segregate your browsing to different browsers and different browsing modes.

I personally now use two browsers for different reasons:

* Chrome = Gmail, Drive, Docs, Search that I wanted tracked (work related usually)

* Chrome Incognito = Social media (Twitter, Instagram) and sites I stay on most of the time (HN)

* Firefox Private Browsing = Search that I do not want tracked (shopping research usually), shopping, news sites, media sites, LinkedIn

One can also view these in terms of cookie/data retention periods:

* Chrome = +1 week

* Chrome Incognito = 1 day maximum

* Firefox Private Browsing = Session (created and destroyed for a specific purpose, short-lived)

And yes, it's not convenient as if I get an email with a link in it I will copy the link into the appropriate browser and then browse to it. But then the upside is that I don't get tracked relentless by tracking stuff that expects cookies.

Oh, and I'm aware of IP tracking too. I tend to use PIA VPN for this reason and do not autoconnect to the closest place, but instead semi-randomly pick somewhere in Europe to surface from each day.

<comment><USER9> I do similar:

* Chromium = google services only

* Firefox = work, normal browsing (e.g. HN)

* Firejailed firefox = useful for sites too broken in regular Firefox

Both Chromium and FF are set to destroy cookies upon session termination and block third party cookies. I use uBlock Origin in "default deny"[0] mode which blocks all third party content by default. I never sign into accounts from google, twitter, linkedin, or any other advertiser purveyor within FF.

The firejailed firefox is for such advertising purveyors and/or for sites which are cumbersome to make work properly by selective whitelisting in uBlock origin. I use firejail, rather than incognito / private browsing, so that the browser will behave exactly as if it were freshly installed when I visit these sites. Some settings (and in the case of FF, add-ons) will impact incognito/private browsing; firejail allows me to run a browser "wide open" safely.

[0] [https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Dynamic- filtering:-de...](https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/Dynamic- filtering:-default-deny)

<comment><USER8> Firejail looks great, I did not know about that. Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I know my browsing habits/history is not private, and I know I am being tracked, even though I use plugins to minimize that.

But having a marketing person send me a personalized email slapping me in the face with that tracking by explicitly telling me that they know what web page I visited on their site... that would be a pretty big turn off for me.

<comment><USER11> Exactly. The moment I get a cold contact like this, I'll put your business on the "Never use them for any reason" list.

After I send them an email explaining why.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Cataclysmic outcome: linkedin is embedded on a porn site/page and starts feeding the names and professional profiles of visitors to the owner. These people are then contacted and blackmailed based on socio-economic status (e.g. targeting rich married individuals).

This linkedin feature has always been a pure money grabbing ploy with no merit other than the premium revenues generated from exploiting the emotional vulnerability of people and #growthinghacking needs of recruiters.

</comment><comment><USER13> LinkedIn sets X-Frame-Options: sameorigin on requests, so this is likely to only work on old browsers (IE7 and lower, basically).

<comment><USER14> You could load it as an image, as cross-origin policies are not enforced for images. Not sure if their tracker is server-side or requires loading JS.

<comment><USER15> Also, you should be able to have a proxy on your own domain, changing nothing but the `X-Frame-Options` header.

<comment><USER16> It's cookies in each user's browser that tell LinkedIn who's viewing a profile. They wouldn't be transmitted to your proxy, so this wouldn't work.

<comment><USER15> Oh, that's true. Good point that I didn't think about at all. Just have done this myself in simple cases where cookies aren't involved.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> While doing this for your own profile could be useful for you and some metrics you may want, someone else could be a bit more nefarious.

On a high profile/traffic blog, web app, or site - could just include some targeted, random, or interesting LinkedIn profiles, and then all of these people would be bombarded with misinformation about who's viewed their page.

Want to confuse sales team at XYZ Startup Corp., sure have all of their profile links in hidden IFrames too...

<comment><USER18> If all you need to get onto the list is a request to the profile page URL, even a simple image link in a forum signature/profile image/etc. might be enough...

<comment><USER19> Hmm so you could then see everyone who loaded that page/comment?

This has probably already been an exploit used by some people..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> That's one more reason to use extensions like Ublock and Ghostery.

<comment><USER21> And one more reason to avoid linked in! If this actually works.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> This is terri(fic|ble).

</comment><comment><USER18> The essence of this hack is "turn LinkedIn into a tracking pixel." I suppose it's possible to do it with some other social-network-type sites too.

</comment><comment><USER23> I have a LinkedIn profile that I've not updated for a long time. Have programmers here found it to be of any value, apart from being in the know of what your friends/colleagues are up to in their careers?

<comment><USER24> Being able to contact former co-workers is invaluable. I moved out of New York in 2009 and moved back in 2012. In between the startup I had worked at basically gone out of business and everyone had new jobs. I didn't have anyone's email address or phone number or even Facebook connection, but I was connected on LinkedIn. I was able to reach out, find out what companies were hiring, get some interviews, etc. It massively helped in my move back and I'm in a far better place because of it.

All the recruiters, resumes, cover letters, and interview prep pale in comparison to just having a bunch of people that want to work with you again. Ultimately whether you use LinkedIn or Facebook or a paper rolodex of phone numbers, the key thing is that you need that collection of weak connections. These are not my 20 friends, these are the 150 people that have been in a company with me and know my reputation but probably don't know much more than that.

I find LinkedIn is a good tool for that. Sure there are some negatives, but I haven't found anything better. I don't necessarily want to be Facebook friends with all of the people I currently or previously worked with, and there is no way to keep an up to date contact list by yourself.

<comment><USER23> > Being able to contact former co-workers is invaluable.

Agreed. Maybe I never felt the need of using LinkedIn for this because I'm already well connected with most of my former colleagues via other channels, since before this, I was at a pretty small startup.

My friends with management jobs love LinkedIn as a job finding tool, and some even claim that being connected to influential people in the industry on LinkedIn helps them stand out somehow, but most of my programmer friends do not like the type of recruiters on LinkedIn. In my personal job searches, I almost never needed anything other than a CV, a cover letter and Github/StackExchange accounts (as opposed to "connections" with famous people).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I read about this over a year ago (I think it may have been on HN, though the article was different). It seemed like it might be a security flaw and that it would get resolved, but I guess not.

</comment><comment><USER26> Interesting, I just tested this. It doesn't work as an image or an iframe on Chrome.

iFrame wont work on modern browsers: Refused to display 'my linkedin url' in a frame because it set 'X-Frame-Options' to 'sameorigin'.

Image also probably did not work, though Linkedin might delay reporting profile visits, any ideas?

</comment><comment><USER27> Neat one! Not sure it will work too great for a hacker audience -- all sorts of content blockers, and they probably aren't logged into Linkedin 24/7 anyway -- but I really like the idea.

The only issue I have with this is that it tracks people on yet another part of the Internet. Same reason as why I don't have Google Analytics or Youtube embedded videos or embedded Google Maps on my website (let alone Google Ads).

</comment><comment><USER28> I've been thinking about creating a separate Chrome login for use on any browsing on social sites (FB, Twitter, LinkedIn) - maybe even a unique login for each. Would that be an effective way to isolate this type of thing?

<comment><USER29> Why not a create a new Chrome profile that's not signed into Google, and use its Incognito mode?

<comment><USER28> That's what I meant by Chrome login - a separate Chrome user profile, and wouldn't incognito mode require that I authenticate each time I visit these sites since any authentication cookies would be disposed of at the end of a session?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> This is interesting; I was wondering though are you really using the Chrome Scraper extension to get this data? Is there some way to run that on a schedule, or are you manually scraping periodically?

</comment><comment><USER31> That's actually a sneaky way of following up with people who visited your carrers page. Check their linkedin and if they are a nice candidate send them a message through linkedin.

</comment><comment><USER32> You might not need a whole iframe. Why not just an img tag like a regular cross site request forgery over GET.

If the WHO isn't logged with any js Magic it will work all the same.

</comment><comment><USER33> I wonder what impact it has on page rank? I remember playing with 1x1 pixel links a few years back and finding my page completely disappear from Google.

</comment><comment><USER34> I love it when people use meaningless phrases like "reach out to you". It makes spam filtering so easy!

</comment><comment><USER35> I think there are some ethical issues with this, but the idea is brilliant.

</comment><comment><USER36> What size is the request / overhead?

<comment><USER18> The size of a LinkedIn profile page:

        <iframe src="LINK TO YOUR LINKEDIN PROFILE" height="1" width="1" frameBorder="0"></iframe>

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Creepy. I hope LinkedIn breaks this soon.

</comment><comment><USER38> Can someone kill this news immediately, please?

We fear for our current business model.

<comment><USER39> You need a new business model.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How can I tell Google to let go of an old email address? - <AUTHOR> I used to have a *firstname.lastname@example.com address, two smartphones ago.  On my current phone I have been using a completely different account, which is now my primary.
I occasionally get email on the old account, forwarded to my new account, since apparently Google still thinks it is mine, and fair enough.  How can I tell them that I don't give a damn about that account, and the other person can have it? <comment><USER2> Do you want to remove only your gmail account or all the google products with that username?

Are you sure? Are you very sure???

More info. Read it carefully and use it at your own risk:

"Delete your Google Account" [https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/32046?hl=en](https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/32046?hl=en)

"Delete your Gmail account" [https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/61177?hl=en](https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/61177?hl=en)</comment>