Ask HN: What other good careers exist for those without a college education? - <AUTHOR> So I never graduated from college but have been working on web apps (Ruby on Rails and Ember are what I mostly work on) since I was 19 (I am 25 now).
I always wondered what I would do if for some reason the market for software developers would go down.  I worry I would not able to find an interesting job, let alone a lucrative one.
Is tech the best path out there for interesting and/or well paid work without a college education? <comment><USER3> As someone with access to free education but without a college degree, without rich parents and still having done pretty well for myself, let me tell you my way of thinking about this.

There is a difference between getting an education and being educated. If you focus on educating yourself without worrying about what your title you have the chance of learning about subject matter transcendence i.e. you will become skilled at some mixture of subjects without being "the best" at any one of them.

This subject matter transcendence I believe is one of the keys to staying relevant and aware of what is going on around you as it gives you an intuitive understanding of how various areas could be connected.

As typical example is the designer/developer. A person who both know how to design and how to code. That person might not be the best at the individual disciplines but the combination is in itself providing them with an edge on 80% of the people BOTH in the design field AND in the development field.

Don't worry about confining yourself into becoming an expert in one field who then will need to compete with other experts.

Instead become an expert in your own chosen subject matter no matter how fractured and you will be able to if nothing else, start your own company solving a problem your unique understanding of the world might lead you to.

In other words. Don't worry just keep educating yourself that's the best you can do.

</comment><comment> barry-cotter You have six years professional experience in programming. You can probably get onto the Oxford M.Sc. in Software Engineering but the deadline is soon. If you miss it the next one is in March.

[https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc- softwar...](https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/msc-software- engineering?wssl=1)

Applicants are _normally_ expected to be predicted or have achieved a first- class or strong upper second-class undergraduate degree with honours (or equivalent international qualifications), as a minimum, in a related subject, such as computer science, informatics or engineering.

For applicants with a degree from the USA, the minimum GPA sought is 3.5 out of 4.0.

Applications are invited from anyone with sufficient experience or proven ability in software, security, or data engineering. A typical applicant will have at least two years' experience in a professional environment, and an undergraduate degree in a related subject. However, _more extensive experience may compensate for a lack of formal qualifications_ , and a strong, immediately-relevant qualification may compensate for a lack of professional experience.

Emphasis not in original

<comment><USER4> In work now so can only skim, but how long does it take to complete part time? I'm guessing you need to be on campus?

<comment> barry-cotter You need to be on campus for one week per module, then you have six weeks to complete your assignment, you need to complete ten modules to get the Master's as well as attending a week long course on how to do a 15-20K word thesis based on project work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Your real issue here is the irrational worry, not the lack of alternative career paths. I'd look into techniques for coping with anxiety if this seriously bothers you.

<comment><USER6> It isn't that irrational. I know many people who didn't have very good career prospects before getting a career in software development or system administration. And while most people are making decent money the tech industry is bad at providing other values. In a downturn a lot of us would end up competing for the same jobs. If you are lucky you are just stuck in a job you can't get out of.

So I would say that diversifying and investing in the future is a good idea.

<comment><USER5> Expecting a radical downturn in the market for software engineers is irrational. Software is continuing to eat the world.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I know some people who sell cars and don't have a college degree but pull in close to six figures. They enjoy it but they also work for higher end dealerships and get to take fun cars (like a brand new WRX STI...) for a spin sometimes.

Cooking or baking is another option. Some great chefs out there never graduated from college or culinary school.

Running a business also doesn't require a college degree. My wife owns a café and never graduated from college.

<comment><USER8> > Cooking or baking is another option.

Celebrity chefs can make a lot of money, but I'm pretty sure just about everyone else is just barely scraping by.

<comment><USER9> Just like lawyers.

<comment><USER10> Lawyers earn a median amount of $120,000 a year - [https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm#tab-5](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm#tab-5)

Chefs and head cooks earn a median amount of around $50,000 a year [https://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparation-and- serving/chefs-a...](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/food-preparation-and- serving/chefs-and-head-cooks.htm#tab-5)

So I'm not so sure about your point.

<comment><USER9> The point is that there is a pretty big disparity between the big paying law jobs and the normal jobs on a frequency basis, the median earning value doesn't demonstrate this reality.

I did the research on this when I thought I wanted to go into law myself.

<comment><USER11> Wait that's why you use the median

<comment><USER12> Lawyer salaries follow a bimodal distribution[1], that's why the median isn't very helpful. Besides showing the distribution (what the article does) the more interesting figures would be the two modes.

What might be relevant for the discussion here is that lawyer salaries have been unimodal 25 years ago but have changed over the course of time. It has been argued here on HN [2][3] and elsewhere [4] that developer salaries are bound to suffer the same fate.

[1] [https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary- distribution-c...](https://www.biglawinvestor.com/bimodal-salary-distribution- curve/)

[2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16337434](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16337434)

[3] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12588202](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12588202)

[4] [https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/](https://danluu.com/bimodal- compensation/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Are you based in the US? Can't say much about that then but if you'd be in Germany I would advise you to pick a craft like heating technician (Heizungsbauer), electrician or plumber: Due to the demographic change and the government efforts pushing more and more people to study instead of doing an apprenticeship there are fewer and fewer qualified people around that are able to fix our heating, plumbing or wiring. In Germany (and many other countries) these areas are also regulated so if you made it through your apprenticeship you are somewhat protected from too much competition, which is a nice advantage to e.g. being a programmer where everyone with a computer and some coding skills can compete with you. Also, heating systems and electric appliances are not going away anytime soon and they regularly break, so you have pretty much guaranteed business.

I've heard from many friends that have extreme difficulty finding someone to e.g. redo their roof or tile their floor as most professionals can just afford to wait for large, extremely lucrative jobs instead due to the high demand overhang. Single gigs can be in the ballpark of 50 to 100 thousand €, with hourly rates in excess of 100 € not being uncommon. Easily beats the going rate for developers here (which is around 80 € / hour).

</comment><comment><USER14> Depending on where you are, a tugboat captain can clear $500k/year, and you'll have a 6 figure pension when you retire. Other hands on jobs that have lots of overtime potential (e.g. police or fire department, oil, welding, etc) can also pay really well depending on your level.

<comment><USER15> How much is a tugboat?

<comment><USER16> A lot. But most tug captains work for someone that owns the boat and over time might buy into the boat ownership or buy their own. You can still make a big salary while running someone else's boat though.

<comment><USER17> I had a friend who got into working on boats like this. She worked her ass off, but made really good money for someone just starting out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> > I always wondered what I would do if for some reason the market for software > developers would go down. I worry I would not able to find an interesting > job, let alone a lucrative one.

You are right to worry ( [https://stackoverflow.com/jobs?q=bscs](https://stackoverflow.com/jobs?q=bscs) ). It will be more of a problem when you're in your late 40's, maybe married with kids, and laid off in a tight economy, without a degree. I mean, if you ever see it in job ads, or have it mentioned in interviews, then it is a thing.

Consider signing up for a local college with a decent CS program (public or private) and taking one course a semester at night or on weekends. Then the default becomes you graduate eventually. Also, the fact that you are going and making progress helps as well. It also helps your programming - reflecting on mutual exclusion and critical sections for a semester will not hurt you any in your job.

</comment><comment><USER19> Everything computer-related is best right now. (Web design, UX, "social media person".) However, if for some reason you want to change that, I have found that writing and composing music are also well suited for the same type of mind. (You need imagination, constrained by rules. We're good with rules and, as far as I can tell, we're not bad at creativity either.)

<comment><USER20> _writing and composing music_

I'm not even sure how to approach criticizing this, because I'm sure you mean well, but if someone aims to make a living in these two things, they better get ready for a lifelong dose of failure.

<comment><USER19> You're (somewhat) right. I was mainly addressing the "find an interesting job" part, not the "lucrative" one.

There are ways to become successful as a writer, but you need to be either very lucky, or cheat. See [1] for an example of the latter.

[1] [https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0056BMK6K](https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0056BMK6K)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> You can work on a bakery, waiter, cleaner, sales and a lot of other jobs. Even if you are an introvert, there will be a job for you.

But I don't believe tech is going away. You better work on getting this anxiety away, you were probably thinking "oh shit, things are going down because there are too much clowns getting funding and giving web dev projects that makes no money for them and go bankrupt". I did that frequently, maybe you also did, I'm just trying to view things from your perspective.

The other side of the story is that for every 100 clowns, there is 1 that succeeds and controls a whole industry. Programming will be well paid for a while. Most of the people can't/won't even learn how to program or be willing to do it to earn a living, no matter how good it pays.

Consider actually learning other platform, such as systems engineering/mobile etc. That will definitely help you out with that.

Even if you would help people writing VBA functions in Excel you could make money. There are a lot of old people making 6-7 figures that can't open a PDF. Remember that. The economic and the system as today, isn't going away. There will always be banks, politicians and entrepreneurs creating jobs and keeping people busy.

As long as you are willing to work, you will do just fine.

<comment><USER22>
      But I don't believe tech is going away.

Tech doesn't need to 'go away' for the likes of us to have a bad time. All we need is a repeat of the 2000 dot-com bubble bursting.

In that case, companies with solid products at good prices still went bankrupt, as the customers-of-their-customers had trouble and demand for their products dried up; and as investors were spooked out of the entire sector. The damage wasn't limited to the likes of pets.com!

<comment><USER21> I don't know anybody who became UNEMPLOYABLE at that time.

Sure, you might need to work under some bad conditions or take a pay cut, but that is just life. For who has great experience shit shovelling their whole life, this is nothing. For those who doesn't and can't take a crisis, they wouldn't be able to take it in any field of work.

I think there will be always well-paid work for people who are analytical, maybe you need to start over on another field, but it isn't that bad. Idk really, anything could happen, but as soon as I look around, I'm usually the most employable person ever, can speak a few languages, can do a lot of stuff, IT, development, I welcome new opportunities and things, can deal with money well and has my whole life studied finance.

I think for a lot of people on our field it is like this. I actually would appreciate if we would have a crisis, because that would be definitely the time I would be able to take part in those businesses that grow on those times and end up being huge. At the present there is a lot of shitty companies with huge valuations and providing nothing, crisis are good because they really shake the status quo and those who think outside of the box get out of it much better than if everything was perfect.

Think positive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12>
      Sewer Diver	       		130000 EUR
      Federal Minister		124046 EUR
      Flight Controller		 78000 EUR
      Offshore Mechanic		 58500 EUR
      Elevator Technican		 52000 EUR
      Driving Instructor 		 47500 EUR
      Garbageman   		         42000 EUR

These are annual gross salaries in Germany. None of the jobs requires college education. To put it into perspective, web dev averages around 55000 EUR here.

</comment><comment><USER23> Consulting is a lucrative career path that relies less on college pedigrees and more on networking/reputation.

<comment><USER16> Consulting is a weird place. Just recently I had a customer decide they wanted to hire me full time (I've been consulting with one of their internal divisions for awhile, and the company wanted to make me available to everyone) and they balked when they saw I didn't have a degree. But then I turned the interview into a pitch for using my consulting services for everyone instead of hiring me and the worry about my degree went out the window. Somehow it seemed ok to have a contractor without a degree but not an employee.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Without a degree, doing what you're provably good at is your best option. A degree is basically an substitute for proof that you're good at something. (A degree doesn't actually prove you're good at it; at best it means you're more likely to be good at it, since you've been exposed to education about it.)

So if you're good at software, then do that. There's little chance for the demand for software developers to go down; it's one of the safest career paths there is. There is of course a chance that the software market will change and that demand for Ruby or Ember will drop. But if you can learn those, you can also learn to develop in Python and Vue or something.

Keep learning, keep diversifying.

Of course it's possible you have other talents. Maybe you're a good comic artist, cook, salesman, manager or something else entirely. Work on those skills when you can, and build up a portfolio so you can prove to people that you're good at these things too. There are plenty of fields where talent is far more important than a degree. A degree is merely a way to develop that talent and prove you've done that.

</comment><comment><USER25> People want to hire intelligent, hardworking people.

If you don't have a college degree, you just need to find other ways to show potential employers you're intelligent and hardworking, regardless of industry.

To think about this from any other perspective is to unnecessarily pigeonhole yourself.

<comment><USER26> Exactly this.

I don't have a degree, but I still got the first job I ever applied to (as a full-time BI dev, not internship). I was lucky that they had an entrance "exam" that I could use to prove my capability.

The entrance "exam" looked like this: they asked me what programming languages I knew. I answered Python, C, awk. They said ok, then here are 3 simple tasks, do these in either Clojure or Elixir, get back to us when you are ready. I submitted my answers in 72 hours, talked my way through them on the interview and basically that was it.

The whole point of this was (I guess) to measure how quickly can I learn new things (functional languages need a different mindset than imperative languages).

Now I'm focusing on doing side projects that I can put on my webpage and resume, right next to the work experience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Sales

Because your output is more measurable than in most other roles, credentials matter far less.

</comment><comment><USER28> IT, you can learn it by yourself, you can contribute to open source and get recognized and on the end run get the experience and recognition as an IT professional

</comment><comment><USER29> If you're good you can do well with a lot of career paths, e.g. master woodworker, or expert welder or a good accountant. Of course, you'd have to learn a lot of new things first and that takes years, so it's probably not such a good idea to switch profession without a good reason, and it's even more unlikely that you'll really have to switch it ever...

<comment><USER30> Master? Expert? That are some high goals - not everyone can be the best. Not everyone should be.

<comment><USER29> Well, in this context it doesn't mean "the best", it's more of a honorable title for highly skilled craftsman - something achievable with a lot of practice and hard work and love for that job. And while you're totally right, and it's totally fine to be a part of mediocrity (like most of us are), people usually don't quit their well-paid jobs and change carriers completely in hope to be crappy at something else...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Your problem seems that you are relying on someone else to employ you. Why not create products by yourself and become a potential employer? Unless the society itself crashes due to large scale wars or natural catastrophes, people will always want and use useful software, and that includes time wasting entertainment ones. There are so many things that need to be done, so as long as what you create is not yet another tool that does the same old thing that twenty others already do with no differentiating aspect to it, its worth pursuing this path.

Software engineering is the most equalizing field in modern society. I mean, anyone with interest and reasonable intelligence can get good at it; they just need a used laptop and a decent internet connection. Add a good amount of CS understanding, and general creativity, one stands to make it big in this field. Compare that with trying to build the next generation automobile by self studying mechanical engineering, or creating a drug to cure your least favorite disease by learning bio chemistry through a MOOC.

Software engineering is the new humanities, albeit a lucrative one, in that you need just a bit of push in the beginning after which it is all up to you to explore and get good at.

<comment><USER32> > Why not create products by yourself and become a potential employer?

Usually the added hassle of the business logistics (paperwork, additional business taxes on top of your payroll, etc) and everyone under the sun trying to lowball you. Not everyone has the intuition and patience necessary to handle all this extra work. There's also the added time commitments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Air Traffic Controller. Saw it mentioned in a similar thread and sounds like decent pay for the trade off of high stress and crappy hours. Still it's defiantly something worth looking into if you are willing to make compromises.

</comment><comment><USER34> Every single one and no one.

Your education increases the chance of you getting into a particular field, but doesn't guarantee it. If you are capable of exploiting opportunities - there is no field that you can't get into.

</comment><comment><USER35> Aside from the very obvious jobs that require a qualification (doctor, lawyer, etc) you can do pretty much whatever you want. After my first job my degree was more or less pointless. As for the first job, or any other, stop worrying about what's on a piece of paper and start figuring out what you're interested in and what will make people interested in that. Then just get out there and meet people. Conferences, meet ups, whatever. These are the people who will employ you, work with you, work for you, and introduce you to people who will all of those. Of all my friends that earn very, very well, there's little difference between those with lots of qualifications and those without - <USER2> far more so in tech. Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER36> Lambda School comes to mind. Try them, they seem to be working out for lots of people.

<comment><USER37> had to look that one up. seems like a refreshing concept:

 _> Lambda School trains people online to be software engineers at no up-front cost. Instead of paying tuition, students can agree to pay a percentage of their income after they're employed, and only if they're making more than $50k per year. If you don't find a job, or don't reach that level of income, you'll never pay a cent._

it has been discussed here before too: [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=lambda%20school&sort=byPopular...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=lambda%20school&sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Make sure that you have soft skills, the ability to learn by yourself and problem solve.

Coding is obviously super relevant now, and I personally believe for still a while, to remain employed. Yet, if you look at WEF prediction[0], it is soft skills – with obviously technical knowledge (that you already have) – that will matter in the long run.

So what does it means for you? The future of work is not about learning one tool (programming language for instance) and be done for a career. We can actually extend this to a type of job. The key is to be able re-train and re- tool. College education, and in general, lecture/instructor-based education, is generally training us the wrong way: we feed students with knowledge that is the answer for the exam in 2 weeks. In real life, we make money or are paid by solving problems (exams) but it's up to us to find the answer (the lecture). So it's completely backward.

Progressive Education[1], a movement that was created at the end of the 18th century is super relevant for our time. It's advocating for students to learn something by doing, to focus on problem-solving and critical thinking, soft skills and become a life-long learner. I am so in love with this methodology that I created a software engineering school using it, and it's working amazingly![2]

Since you seem to be self-taught, you probably already have this ability to self-learn, that's HUGE! My advice to you would be: try to learn something completely new, on your own. See how it goes. It might be painful, if so that is normal, keep going. I see that with our students who, especially when they start, are frustrated by the fact that we, as a school, are pushing them to find the knowledge by themselves instead of giving the answer by just raising their hand. The key here is not only to learn a new craft, but also and very importantly, to develop the ability to self-learn.

Develop your soft skills: collaboration, coaching, empathy, writing, negotiation, public speaking. Those are key to grow in seniority in the software track, but really, it is for any career.

Finally, I believe that tech isn't going anywhere, it's widely used by retail, finance, transportation, media, healthcare... Considering that you cannot remain employed as a software developer, no matter which position you end up working in, having tech knowledge will make a huge difference or be just essential.

[0][https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/the-3-skill-sets- work...](https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/06/the-3-skill-sets-workers-need- to-develop-between-now-and-2030/)

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_education)

[2][https://www.holbertonschool.com/](https://www.holbertonschool.com/)

</comment><comment><USER39> Cleaning toilets?

</comment><comment><USER40> The illusion of the requirement for a College Education to get a high paying job in any field is starting to diminish. Now Yes, it will be a bit harder to get a job when your competition has 6 Masters degrees and 2 PHDs. All a degree tells a potential employer is that you are supposed to know the degree field. It isn't ordinary for employers to give you a test to determine your knowledge, that's why everything on the Resume is vital and a degree usually stands out above the rest. With that out of the way, Especially when it comes to IT, most companies look for experience. Light up your resume with the experience in Ruby (or any other knowledge you have) and pound on it, sell it to the employter that you know what you're doing even more so than Joe Smith with his 90+ Degrees. I highly doubt that the demand for IT will go down in any field. If that is the case; You can always learn Welding (which will require a very short technical school,about 3-6 months for the price of a few paychecks dependending on where you live) Construction is also a decently simple field to get into and its usually union with very.. very high paying opportunities along with the self satisfaction of building structures to be used for years. But I recommend staying IT, Many other companies have a plentiful amount of openings in IT though it may not be Software Developers, Your experience so far will help you honestly find any door in Information Technology regardless of a degree.

<comment><USER41> 1) almost no one has multiple Masters and even fewer multiple PhDs.

2) A degree tells a potential employer you have knowledge in a field and the persistence to stick with a project/goal for 4-6 years. The latter possibly being more important than the former.

3) Focus on persistence and experience in particular technology or projects is definitely a good boost.</comment></comment>


Software Is Hard - <AUTHOR> http://www.gamearchitect.net/Articles/SoftwareIsHard.html <comment><USER2> I found this quote interesting:

\---

I believe that the following statement is an axiom of software development:

It is impossible, by examining any significant piece of completed code, to determine within a factor of two how many man-hours it took to produce that code.

And the corollary:

If you can't tell how long a piece of code would take when you have the finished product available, what chance do you think you have before the first line of code is written?

</comment><comment><USER3> Actually software is so much easier than any other kind of physical engineering, that ridiculously small and inexperienced teams try to solve fiendishly complex problems. That's what makes it hard.

<comment><USER4> _"... Actually software is so much easier than any other kind of physical engineering ..."_

Not so. While the construction of things is hard. It is backed up with hundreds of years of engineering experience, thousands in hacking. This has allowed engineers to design with both the confidence of theory and some understanding of tolerance,

Despite being just over 50 years old, Software is not yet an engineering discipline. There is no tolerance for error ~ [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparing_software_engineering_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparing_software_engineering_and_related_fields)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I love this sentence:

"Talking about a software development schedule more than a year out is like talking about where we go after we die."

<comment><USER6> "Hofstadter's Law: 'It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law.'"

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The first thing that struck me is that this visually looked like joelonsoftware.com - is there some template that people use or something ? It even has the same sort of links on the left hand side.</comment>


Honouring computing's 1843 visionary, Lady Ada Lovelace - <AUTHOR> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2012/12/honouring-computings-1843-visionary.html <comment><USER2> The Lovelace & Babbage comic is fun: <http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/lovelace-the-origin-2/>

(that's the one Sydney Padua did for Lovelace Day, but there's lots more on the site). The cartoons are in a steampunk comedy style, but backed with copious footnotes and links to the source documents about the details and characters.

</comment><comment><USER3> Calling Ada Lovelace's program to compute Bernoulli numbers "the first published algorithm" is slightly odd choice of wording, since mathematical algorithms have existed long before there were machines to mechanically compute them.

Euclid's algorithm for computing greatest common divisors of integers, from his work Elements circa 300 B.C. is sometimes called the oldest surviving(?) algorithm in writing.

Nevertheless, very exciting article about a very special visionary.

</comment><comment><USER4> _> So much of world history leaves out or minimizes the contributions of women, and so "of course" most of us had no idea who she was._

This sounds amazing. I thought she's really well known amongst the techie crowd.

<comment><USER5> We were taught about her and Babbage in our History of Computing module at university, but outside of university I haven't heard much about her to be fair.

University educations are still good for some things! It's good to know your roots :)

<comment><USER6> Well, but what have you heard of Babbage outside of university?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I was delighted to learn that Byron was her father! What an interesting family.

I was also surprised by the framing of this. Of course history is not studied by many people now, but how many who would know of Babbage would not know of Lovelace? She is very famous.

<comment><USER8> Personally, I've always seen more coverage of Lovelace than of Babbage--she's thoroughly celebrated, at least at my university, along with Grace Hopper and our own local famous female engineer (for whom the college of engineering is named). There is no Babbage Day or anything of the sort, he's just this guy that didn't quite build a computer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Related discussion. Happened a while back here on HN:

Marie Curie day: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4658763></comment>


Ask HN: Does having the right corp lawyer help you find investors? - <AUTHOR>

I was recently approached by some lawyers in the Valley telling me that I should incorp my startup. The told me they'll defer the cost until we get funded, and they'll introduce us to their investor community.
With that said, do lawyers really help you get funded or is it just a bunch of horse Sh$%!? <comment><USER2> The VC introductions are an invaluable asset offered by the large law firms in the startup area - if your business model is capital-intensive, you will find no better way to open doors to this type of funding.

The big-firm model is highly VC-focused, though, and can be somewhat inflexible for bootstrapping types of ventures. It all depends on where your company is at.

</comment><comment><USER3> Lawyers and investors aren't particularly tightly linked in Silicon Valley, so I wouldn't consider their investor community in making a decision about using them. Besides, if the investor were tightly linked to the lawyer, you couldn't count on the lawyer to represent your best interests in a financing with that investor.

Larry Sonsini can help you meet investors, but if you can get Sonsini to represent you, you're probably already past the hurdle of meeting investors. Look instead at the quality of their work and what they will cost you.

</comment><comment><USER4> That's true. A lot of intros to investors come through lawyers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks Paul. Oh and I know you like to eat cheese. Anyways, so should I be picky about which firm to go with? Does anyone have any good law firm recommendations in the Silicon Valley?

<comment><USER4> <http://www.paulgraham.com/angelinvesting.html#f2n>

<comment><AUTHOR> Any cons with large firms like Wilson Sonsini, meaning would they charge an arm and a leg once a startup gets funded?

<comment><USER4> The top firms are expensive, but worth it. It's usually not worth trying to economize on lawyers unless you really know what you're doing. Once a startup is established, it can make sense to try cut down one's legal bills by e.g. hiring an in-house counsel, but when you're inexperienced you don't want to be cutting corners in the legal dept. Better to overpay your lawyers than end up with some disastrous term in your funding agreement.

<comment><USER5> Isn't there a conflict of interest if a firm is introducing you to their investor network but then helping to craft the agreements? Or is this degree of cross-fertilization common and even necessary?

Still, if there's that prior relationship between the firm and some investors, how can we be sure our interests are being best represented?

<comment><USER4> If they're representing you, they're legally required to act in your interest, and they take that pretty seriously. I can't think of a case among all the startups we've funded where the startup felt their lawyers were selling out to the investors. There have been all sorts of disputes with lawyers (excessive bills, slowness, incompetence), but never that.

<comment><USER6> Technically, they are representing the company, not you personally. It is an important difference that doesn't really come up often AFAIK

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The best introductions to VCs come from entrepreneurs who made them millions. Lawyer intros are definitely lower on the list, but far better than cold calling.

Deferred costs is a fair deal. Of course, the bill will be large once you have to pay it, but at least it's deferred. Just make sure that it's truly deferred forever. If it's deferred for 6 months or funding (whichever comes first), it's a bad, bad, deal. Debt bankrupts companies.</comment>


Ask HN: I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason - <AUTHOR> I was hired and unhired in 2 weeks, for no reason except  being told that "our plans changed".
I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup. I spent a week working with them before joining. They liked me, and I liked them. I officially joined as the COO. Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa.
And then, suddenly I was told over a 'catch-up call', that they have to rethink the hiring decision because they really needed someone with a different skill set. The conversation was friendly and polite.
Now finger snap - just like that – I am out! Specifically, I was politely asked to leave. Its the strangest experience of my life. They keep reiterating that its not performance related. I believe it.
The problem is:
- I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones)
- Told my friends/family about the job, and that I will be moving to America
- Reached out to all my contacts (including everyone who was trying to hire me) and attempted to sign them up for this YC service
- I reached out to several people (e.g. at Google, FB, Partners at a management consultancy (i.e. my former employers)) asking them for a potential   investment into this company ("Use our personal networks" was a key strategy), some of these helped me find a job that I turned down
I like the founders - they are good guys. I may even understand that they need someone else, but personally that has left me with few options and in a bit of a depressed state! For my wife, this was such a huge decision (to join a startup and move to another country), and it was just awkward to convince her first, and give her the news.
I am not being very articulate about why this sucks – but any help/advice would be awesome. I have a masters in CS, a failed startup and 6 yrs of management consulting behind me.
Edit: Thank you. Thank you for the wonderful support and advice. I called my wife and showed her this thread! We are going through every word. We are very touched by the amount of concern and positivity here! Thanks. <comment><USER4> I've been a CTO/CEO and have hired many people over time. Some of this has already been said, but:

1\. Those jobs may still be open, reasonable people wouldn't hold taking another job against you. Work is work, and those who step back into discussion with you will show you a reasonableness that you will value more than before.

2\. Situations like this is why sign-ing bonuses were invented. If you're COO of anything, you should also be able to negotiate a proper separation agreement, something like 6 months severance after 6 months of service. The signing bonus covers the initial bump, and then everyone has a window to see if things are copacetic. After that, it's a real relationship with consequences for dissolution.

3\. You should be interviewing and considering companies as much as they're evaluating you. There's gotta be more to this story, some of which may be evident as you ponder what really happened. You've gotta develop that antennae. Asking to speak to a company's founders or advisors is a reasonable thing to do, certainly for a COO role that involves international relocation.

4\. The "best guys" I've ever worked for f*cked me or our companies over. It's an important qualification to an extent, but character and vision and stability are secondary factors that will wag the dog, so to speak. Especially in startups. Startups are risky, and not always due to market forces or the brilliance of the business idea. Give yourself a good long notch in your work belt.

<comment><USER5> This might be a derail, but what is the normal procedure by which one negotiates for a signing bonus or a severance package? Some sample verbiage would be nice.

<comment><USER6> Depends on the country (UK for example, severance is more or less required by law). In the US, I would suggest something along the lines of: (if it's in written form)

Signing bonus: [brackets is some notes]

 _" Dear CEO,

I appreciate the offer of COO for X amount. [be polite] I've taken some careful consideration over the role and what it entails for me personally. [remind them you're a human] I've reviewed not only this offer but many others that have come as a result of my merit, ambition, and drive to enable the success of any organization. [remind them why they hired you and why its gonna change their world] I am prepared to move forward with you and your team, however ask that a bonus upon signage be applied to my overall compensation package. [in general, I would suggest leaving out the "why" \- let them ask you personally and then go into convo]"_

Severance: [brackets is some notes]

 _" Dear CEO/HR person,

I appreciate that a decision was made regarding the future of my relationship with the business and you've done everything in your power to ensure that I walk away standing proud of my merits. [be polite and thank them for being nice people] Unfortunately, as demonstrated by your actions to let me go, I am not a match for the future success of XYZ company. I would, however appreciate some form of severance upon my departure. As you can imagine, having unexpected circumstances can lead to personal hardship. This situation is clearly not ideal in the short term for me and my family. [remind them you're human] Any appreciation and goodwill you may have towards my situation will go a long way. Thank you for your time"_

Note - these are nowhere near perfect or will ever be contextually correct, but are a good starting point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm a bit surprised no one has suggested what I consider the most likely possibility: They had no idea what getting you a visa actually entailed and bailed once you started and they discovered how hard it would be. I'm leaning that way because most people don't understand how hard visas actually are, the way they were vague about their reasons and the timing. Of course, if that's what actually happened, not telling you the truth would immediately take them out of "good guy" bucket.

Other than that, I agree with everyone who is saying to get back in touch with the offers you turned down. Even if they've all hired someone else already, talking to people who wanted to hire you in the recent past is a great way to kick off a job search.

<comment><USER8> I also believe it is the visa issue. You're the COO and they are just going to figure out the visa situation, eventually? A small company doesn't have the money to get an E-visa and as COO you probably wouldn't qualify as H1B nor would you want to be when they start doing funding rounds.

<comment><USER9> What kind of visa could you qualify for as a COO?

<comment><USER10> It's not necessarily based on your title. When I went through the process, it boils down to:

\- Do you have a degree, and experience? Great. Is someone willing to advertise the job to American citizens for a month or so, interview good potential candidates beforehand, and still want you? Even better. Now, just wait for next year's allocation of visa's and you might grab one on the day they're released. Then, wait between 1 and 8 years for your visa to be processed (while the job is still available) and you're allowed to work here.

\- Are you an exceptional alien? Well, do you judge other's work, have papers written, have competed in a globally recognised event for your work, or some other proof of your excellence? Yes? Great, we can apply, but there's only a limited number of visas. Wait a year.

It's really, really tough. Not many of us make it. I had a few job offers moving over here but was only able to move here because my wife was American. And getting her back to the UK is also no easy feat.

Despite being globally connected the visa process still sucks.

<comment><USER11> > _" Is someone willing to advertise the job to American citizens for a month > or so, interview good potential candidates beforehand, and still want you?"_

You're confusing H-1B visas with green card applications.

This isn't relevant to work visas, only relevant to permanent residency applications. The H-1B visa does not require exhausting locals before hiring foreigners, all it needs is to demonstrate competence and education.

Ditto the waiting years part, work visas do not take years, permanent residency permits do.

The H-1B visa is very, _very_ easy to apply so long as the candidate has at least a recognized bachelor's degree. The real downside to H-1B is that it's subject to annual caps, and therefore timing is inconvenient. The visas are valid starting October of that year, but must be applied for before the quota is exhausted. This historically is somewhere between April and August of that year.

Not to mention once you have it the visa is portable between employers with none of the above restrictions. It's definitely not ideal, but working in the US is not nearly as hard as you're making it out to be.

<comment><USER10> Ah yeah. The advertising isn't, you're right. The wait is, though; visa allotments run out fast. Apologies for getting confused.

In some cases you're not applicable for a H1-B (I was a dropout) so my only route was another type which had a several year waiting list. Can't remember the visa name right now, I'll do some googling though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> You are not fucked. Just breathe. Think about it this way, It's likely that this start up will not be around for long if they make such poor decisions with their most important asset. No matter how you think about it, a very poor decision was made.

You have a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience. You are so far from fucked.

<comment><USER13> This. You'll have another job sooner than you think. A lesson that I picked up from some people I respect is that they don't announce big life/job changes to non-family/extremely close friends until they've already been in that change for 1-3 months.

Also I wouldn't give the Founders the benefit of the doubt of being "good people." Even if they are a YC startup, morons come in all shapes and sizes so even YC isn't moron-free. And yes, only a moron makes decisions to hire people that will have to go through a lot of change to take the job without being absolutely positively sure that they are the right person.

This sounds like an episode of "Hire Slow, Fire Fast", which is a cool way of saying: "We fucked up. Abort! Abort! Abort!" Despite how nice they are being to your face, they've realized for some valid-to-them reason that they made a mistake in hiring you. Don't take it personally, just get back on the horse.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> (1) Be very happy that this happened before you actually uprooted your life and moved to a new country, only to find yourself jobless there!

(2) Reach out again to the managers behind some of your past job offers. We have hired people who previously passed on us then had the other gig fall through or run out of funding. Many of those old offers will reappear and you'll be fine.

<comment><USER5> I'll repeat (2). Assuming you politely declined, those bridges are still around. People get things yanked out from underneath them through no fault of their own. If they went through the hiring process enough to decide that you are a good candidate, the fact that they were your second choice shouldn't upset them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I am surprised nobody mentioned the YC Founder Code of Ethics from earlier this year.

       http://www.ycombinator.com/ethics/

I'd argue these four bullet points are relevant:

\-- Treating co-founders and employees with fairness and respect.

\-- Not behaving in a way that damages the reputation of his/her company or of YC.

\-- Keeping your word, including honoring handshake deals.

\-- Generally behaving in an upstanding way.

The OP made a serious accusation against a YC company. I assume YC can pretty easily figure out which company this is. I would expect that YC would investigate and take action if warranted.

<comment><USER16> I agree, especially based on pg's past comments on VCs and handshake deals.[1] This was a handshake deal for employee number 1 and they screwed him. Why it happened we don't know and it could be the right call for both parties. But the manner it happened in is not acceptable behavior. The OP should be compensated appropriately, money and equity.

[1] [http://www.ycombinator.com/handshake/](http://www.ycombinator.com/handshake/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> They are not good guys. They might be good guys in their personal life, but hiring someone from outside the country, letting them cut ties, and then laying them off immediately is not something a "good guy" does.

</comment><comment><USER18> If this is how the company goes about employing their first employee, I don't think they will be around for long. You might have dodged a bullet.

If you got this job, it's extremely likely that you will get another. Don't get me wrong, it's going to suck to explain to people you promoted the startup to that you actually don't work there after all, but it's not the end of the world.

<comment><USER19> _If this is how the company goes about employing their first employee, I don 't think they will be around for long._

Yes, if he truly wasn't a good fit, it sounds like they hired too quickly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> This happens a lot.

Mentor whiplash gets the founders all frothy that they need to do X, Y, and Z _immediately_ or their company will fall apart. Unfortunately, it changes to A, B, and C a week later after meetings with another 30 people. These founders aren't bad people. They just have no idea what they're doing. They got shoved into this crazy new accelerator experience, and they're being told by their heroes that they need to XYZ and ABC immediately, and they freak out and they make decisions too quickly.

Founders joining accelerators, do yourself a favor: the minute you think you NEED to hire one of those first employees, wait a week. Wait 2. Chat with some people informally. Don't setup a coffee meeting and ambush them with your whole team. Just breathe and take your time. Building your team is the most important thing you are ever going to do. This is not cliche. The process of building one, especially that initial core team, should be respected. Talk to some people. Do some contracts with them. Take it slow.

guybrushT, this sucks for you more than most given that you (and your wife!) were moving from another country. The founders should have been more careful. If you still wanna move to the states, I'd more than happy to introduce you to a bunch of startups in Boulder. We're always looking for developers here. Shoot me an email: ryan at ramen dot is.

</comment><comment><USER21> You _absolutely_ need to go back through your contacts and explain exactly what happened. Especially to those who you advised to use this startup's service and those you asked about potential investments. After hearing this story, they may reconsider such involvement---I certainly would.

These are not "good guys". They are _at best_ short-sighted, unprepared, and unprofessional. Hiring decisions are important and difficult; the best spin I can see is that they do not know who they need and are very unprepared for this step. (Want a worse spin? Someone they know has suddenly become available and they wish to give them the employee #1/Coo badge.) This behavior is a big red flag.

(I've been in similar situations before---I'm thinking of a research group at ORNL right now---but rescinding an offer is significantly worse.)

As other people have said, don't worry about your personal situation. Most of your contacts will likely have understood your original decision and find the thing offensive as well.

On the other hand, I don't think you'll be able to convince your wife to move to the US again. Tell her we're not all assholes, though.

</comment><comment><USER22> Hypothetical to the larger HN community:

If you got accepted a job offer, and within 2 weeks got a job offer for more money, and at your dream company, would you feel obligated to stay with your initial decision?

If you made the rational (but arguably unethical choice), do you think your reputation should be tarnished, and future employers think hard before extending an offer?

I know it's not the exact situation as the OP, but situations are rarely so straight forward, and often have nuances that we aren't aware of.

To the OP, at the very least, you probably dodged a bullet. So blessing in disguise.

<comment><USER23> No the situation isn't analogous at all because unexpectedly losing a job has a much higher impact on a person than for a company to unexpectedly lose an employer. A person is made of flesh and blood and can have his or her life shattered. A company is an abstract entity defined by laws.

<comment><USER22> > losing a job has a much higher impact on a person than for a company to > unexpectedly lose an employer

This is true, but not without context.

In my scenario above, the circumstances were similar. 2-3 weeks into a new job.

Excluding someone who has been unemployed for an extended period of time, it seems odd that in 2-3 weeks, losing your job would shatter their life.

\---

And I wouldn't exclude companies for being "shattered" either. It's very possible for companies to be formed around the reputation of a single individual, and if that individual left, would be shattering. Especially in early stages of a financing round.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> _I officially joined as the COO._

So did you have an official contract, equity deal, etc? I doubt there's much you can do about these decision not to take you on after all, you probably need to grieve for the job and move on, but you should certainly hold them to their legal obligations, especially if they had to give you notice (which they should be paying you for).

<comment><USER5> Even with an official contract, unless he was explicitly promised certain things, he can still be let go.

American companies generally don't have any notice requirements. The fact that he's overseas may create a liability for the company in that country, but they probably don't care about that.

( _edit_ : They must absolutely pay him for hours worked.)

Assuming his options had vesting (which 'tptacek will remind us to always have, so the YC company probably knows about that advice), he doesn't have any equity.

I've seen this problem from a few sides, so OP has my sympathy, for whatever it's worth. I've seen people laid off a week after joining when the adults suddenly realized they were bleeding money. I very very recently saw someone approved for a job and accept it, told to wait a few days while internal funding moved around, and then suddenly the entire project was cancelled.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> While everyone understands there is an added level of uncertainty when taking a start up position, your situation sounds more unusual than most considering that it does little more than screws up your career and short term family plans. You can't really say you worked at this company, you've already gone through what sounds like a lengthy job search and turned down all positions that came up besides this one, made plans with your family to move to the States, and then a week after getting 'hired' you had to make other plans.

I'm not sure why you say you like the founders when they treat people like this. This is a serious blow to your life that they are responsible for.

<comment><USER26> hmm .. I don't know. I feel differently. They may be nice people. But hiring and firing is a purely business decision. It might be that they needed a different skill set. Or had another candidate who was a lot cheaper. Investor money drying up, lots of things. Its a job at the end of the day and he was let go.

<comment><USER27> _> But hiring and firing is a purely business decision. ... Its a job at the end of the day and he was let go._

I have a serious beef with this mode of thinking. Nothing that you do to another human being is a "purely business decision." And from a practical perspective it's better, in the long run, for you too to be remembered as having owned your mistakes and done right by the people you wronged.

Of course, there is the line of thinking that, hey, this guy won't ever help me later, so I can screw him and skate. And that is entirely too common in startupland. But that speaks to the poor humanity of its thinker more than anything else.

<comment><USER28> agreed, "just business" is a horrible cop out, and it's sad that so many people buy into it even when they are on the getting screwed end of the equation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> > I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones)

Hopefully, when you turned down the job offer, you did so in a classy way. As a hiring manager, if a candidate I extended an offer to, reach back out to me after declining, and said their situation changed, I would consider making a new offer. True you lose negotiating leverage, but I would expect a percentage greater than 0 of companies that would re-engage with you.

> Told my friends/family about the job, and that I will be moving to America

This is a minor issue. Plans change. They'll get over it. Hopefully they didn't throw you a going-away party yet :)

> Reached out to all my contacts (including everyone who was trying to hire > me) and attempted to sign them up for this YC service

No good deed goes unpunished. But seriously, you did the right thing by trying to help out this company. I don't see this as a problem.

> I reached out to several people (e.g. at Google, FB, Partners at a > management consultancy (i.e. my former employers)) asking them for a > potential investment into this company ("Use our personal networks" was a > key strategy), some of these helped me find a job that I turned down

I'm sure those same potential investors will circle back around to you, and decline investing, given that you are no longer with the company.

</comment><comment><USER29> Not to sound trite, but I wish I was in your shoes. You have a masters, 6 years of mgmt exp., and most importantly a wife that is _willing to pack up everything and move_. That's awesome man, best of luck to you, you will be on your feet soon.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! This is my wife's favourite comment. I wonder why. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Job offers don't disappear. Just go back to the other ones and see what is still open.

<comment><USER31> Yea, in most cases a recruiter would be VERY happy to not have to try and find someone else to fill the position. Granted, you're going not going to get the same salary as before, but it's a start.

<comment><USER32> You're not going to get the same salary? Really? has the amount of value he can provide decreased after his failed YC backed COO stint or is it just some petty 'loyalty' thing? That would be insulting, especially because the recruiter tends to get paid more if you do(so why would they do that?). I don't doubt that there are people who would do that, but idk how they can they get away with it in such a hot market for technical talent.

<comment><USER33> Not his objective value (if there is such thing), but his sense of self worth has. Recruiters are trained and drilled into exploit this kind of weaknesses.

<comment><USER34> Your sense of self-worth (or solvency) has to be pretty shattered to accept that you're worth less to a company than they offered you mere weeks ago.

If recruiters are trained to insult potential employees by making lower offers than they earlier rejected, they deserve all the unfilled vacancies they're going to get.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Besides all the nice advice that others have added, I'll give you mine: talk to a lawyer, and have him send physical letters to the company, and to YC.

The lawyer gives you two things:

1) He knows if you can be compensated for the damage;

2) It would give YC an opportunity to take care of this matter.

Oh, and by the way: I don't know their side of the story, therefore I don't want to judge; however, it is very likely that they lied to you - <USER2> someone go after two weeks is weird, and I don't believe that "it's not about you".

</comment><comment><USER36> Lots of back and forth about appearing like a bridge burner.

In truth though, regardless of the appearance, bridge burning is never a good idea. NEVER.

I personally know a nursing home company that fired an employee in an unprofessional way. 20 years later she became the person in charge of nursing home licensing in that state. Guess whose licenses got revoked?! 20 years later, millions of dollars in losses.

That story may be an outlier, I don't know... but a simple evaluation of the risks and benefits of burning this bridge indicate very strongly that you should not burn it.

The argument people make about "having the right to know." to be able to avoid that company is really just self-serving curiosity. I am curious too. But...it's really only appropriate to share that info. to an individual, in private, if you feel they are truly at risk of the same unfair treatment.

Just my two cents.

</comment><comment><USER37> Hey Man, that short term action on a perceived long term decision is rough.

Suggestions:

Know exactly what skill-set the founders were looking for; what lifestyle choices they were looking for is probably also related. You can turn this into a conversation that helps both parties ask better interview questions.

Ask that you stay on, making your salary for several weeks as a contractor. If this isn't possible ask that you get paid reasonable living expenses for a few weeks. This provides a little runway for your job search. (Be wary though that this might raise your hopes.)

Always ensure that you get paid. For that one week before they hired you, for the two weeks you were on.

For your network that you asked for investment from, you need to secure that a) you are no longer part of that company b) if an investment is made, you deserve an advisor's fee (5-10% pre round is typical)

</comment><comment><USER38> Sorry to hear about your situation. Unfortunately, this likely happens more often than you'd like to think.

If I were in your shoes, I would immediately re-establish contact with the recruiters who previously made you offers, and let them know you were grievously misled by this other company, and you are interested to know if their offer is still available.

You may also consider engaging a lawyer. If it were me, I would demand payment for all time worked, plus additional monies to compensate you for your opportunity cost of turning down these other offers, especially if you left a previous job to work for these guys.

</comment><comment><USER39> hi there. could you email me? maybe i can help. sam@ycombinator

</comment><comment><USER40> well, at the very least, I think it isn't out of the question to be asked to be paid for those two weeks. If they made a mistake, shit happens, but they should still be on the hook for it. I'd even consider asking for severance of a couple weeks. They've hosed you, they should try to offset it a little bit. I understand that it probably isn't about the money, but I would hope they at least offered you that.

<comment><AUTHOR> They have offered to pay me for the two weeks.

<comment><USER41> They owe you pay for the two weeks plus penalties (equal to one days pay for each day of delay) for not paying the final pay immediately at the time of termination, so they are "offering" for you to forgo pay to which you are legally entitled. See California Labor Code Secs. 201, 203.

EDIT: Though, the remote working arrangement and lack of US visa, even with what appears to be, from the given description, a valid employment contract (with offer, acceptance, and performance all having occurred) likely makes this less clear cut and, in any case, makes _pursuing_ it more difficult, costly, and time consuming.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> "I decided to not participate in the startup I mentioned longterm and instead reconsidered your offer from (a few weeks ago?). Coffee?"

</comment><comment><USER43> What are your thoughts on not uprooting before you have a formal offer of employment, and a contract signed. Personally, I wouldn't put any wheels in motion until I had a contract in case something like this were to happen, and then if it did they'd be breaking it.

I'm not saying it's this persons fault, but I don't necessarily think saying the founders are not good guys (aka bad guys), I think it's more about being assertive and protecting yourself.

In my experience, I've never handed in notice without a formal offer and that's for local jobs. If you add moving abroad to that, then there are definitely some extra steps needed to protect yourself.

I sincerely wish you the best in finding somewhere else, and it's a horrible situation, but if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently?

<comment><AUTHOR> _I sincerely wish you the best..._

Thank you!

 _if you had a similar offer in a month, would you do it differently?_

You know thats such a good question. There are many excellent suggestions in this discussion. I would definitely add a _cost_ in the contract - a cost (e.g. severance etc.) in case I am asked to leave for reasons other than performance. This should mitigate the casualness which hurt me last time.

What won't change is that startups are looking for great people, and some people are looking for great startups :) But I would definitely structure the deal with a startup very differently, as a result of this discussion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Sorry to hear that!

What the consensus on the best way for someone to avoid this? Immediate vesting if let go? Some predefined severance agreement? 6 mo/12 mo contract? I understand it's a big decision for a startup to hire employee #1, but how can I protect myself in such a future case?

<comment><USER31> You can always ask (accelerated vesting, golden parachute, etc), but it's doubtful you'll get anything.

Joining a startup is a risk, period. Part of that risk is that the company (or your job) will be gone in weeks/months/years. However, the upside is usually there. So if you can tolerate the risk, go for it... but always have a plan B.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> I'd seek compensation for whatever time you were formally employed by the startup. I'd also reach out to some of the other companies I'd passed up job opportunities with to see whether they're still willing to discuss working for them. Be open, and honest as to why you're getting back in-touch with them, and perhaps explain why you chose the US startup over their opportunity to completely clear that question-mark in their minds.

Your situation is frustrating, but there's plenty of opportunity for smart, motivated, talented people. To help with your frustration, try to flip the story in your mind. This company is going to have to find a way to succeed without your knowledge, experience, and help. That's their problem now.

Good luck to you.

</comment><comment><USER46> Life sux. And being a nice person with good intentions does not mean you are unlikely to do no harm to anyone.

That is the major reason why I first learnt to avoid «charismatic/nice» employers; I was fed up of being f*cked in the ass nicely. Then I matured and learnt to trust but check.

</comment><comment><USER47> A little humility and self-awareness should go a long way when talking to people about getting jobs. It seems form your post that you're worried that you may have "burned your bridges". But, really, so long as you weren't rude you should be okay.

</comment><comment><USER48> Founders think they did nothing wrong or something to be hidden. So please share more details and save some of us from similar perspectives. Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER49> Sorry to hear your story. IIRC the lean startup differentiates a "start-up" from a small new business by the idea that the former operates under gross uncertainty. Generally HN smoothes over this but stories like yours help keep things in perspective.

</comment><comment><USER50> > I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup

Which one is it?

<comment><USER51> Since he was clearly avoiding saying who it was, I think he probably doesn't want to say who it was.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Startups are dangerous business. As much as I understand why you'd be chasing the American dream (I too am an immigrant, first generation off the farm) I'm sure you understood the risks of leaping before you looked. Good luck.

<comment><AUTHOR> I did plan for a lot of scenarios - except for the one that happened. For example, I planned running out of funding (in which case we discussed a viable bootstrapping strategy). All my planning assumed that I would be part of the team.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> how fucked can you be really after only 2 weeks? You didn't move yet, you haven't burned any bridges in your network, you have skills that are in demand, you have not uprooted your life for them.

</comment><comment><USER54> Well, I'll probably be hellbanned for this, but I don't blame the founders. it's a tiny company with probably a few thousand dollars between them. They made a bad decision, obviously. Does that mean they should go under with the weight of an employee they don't need?

You even said that you "found a job that you turned down" earlier. So it sounds like things worked out fine. Of course it was hard on you. But changing a job always is.

I don't know what your home country is, but I do know that there are millions of desperately poor unemployed people in India, 25% youth unemployment in Spain, and a pretty tough labor market here in the US for some low-skilled workers. We should be thankful for what we've got. And part of the reason we've got what we have in Sillicon Valley is a culture that allows experimentation. Quickly setting up a company is only possible if you can quickly tear it down or retarget it when things aren't working out.

You mentioned that you have a postgraduate degree in management. Well, you should know that what you're getting into when you join a startup is different than if you join a big, established company. Be a man (or woman) about this. Don't ask for special treatment.

And for the record, I had an employment offer yanked during the crash of 2001. Fun times.

</comment><comment><USER55> You are not fucked. Do not say that again, do not repeat it, do you even think it! Pick yourself up as fast as you can and get going. Start hunting again, don't take too long and get back in the groove. The worse period of my life was the moment I made the mistake of thinking "I was fucked" took too long to come out of it, and all it took was starting to think, "I'm not fucked, I can do better, it's possible" Best of luck.

</comment><comment><USER56> OP, I wanna give you some advice regarding this visa thing, for future reference. As a rule of thumb never resign from your previous position until your visa has been processed. You can always apply for premium processing which is guaranteed to give you results within 15 business days.

For example,if you are doing a h1b transfer, please wait for the h1b transfer to complete before you resign from your previous position.

</comment><comment><USER57> I can't exactly feel what you feel but I share my story anyway as I think it's related albeit less cruel.

I was offered a job in Singapore by a start-up. I filled all the legal documents required including the employment pass application that I sent them back. Weeks later I got a standard email from HR saying they offered the job to another candidate. I was shocked they eventually withdrew their offer.

The problem was I talked about my friends, family, that I'm moving to Singapore (from Europe). My girlfriend who is living in Singapore was happy, along with me, till the point I told her the offer has been withdrawn.

It is interesting to mention that the CTO of the company is the one who had approached me first whether I'm interested in exploring positions with them. However when it comes to withdraw the offer he never turned up.

I'm happy I didn't make business with them. I found a much better company to work with and moving to Singapore next week.

I wish the best to you, it's for sure you'll overcome this with favorable outcome.

</comment><comment><USER58> What kind of help or advice are you looking for specifically? Your post doesn't make it clear what you'd like help with. i.e. finding a new job, negotiating a severance package, revenge, moving on, how to best pick up the pieces with your professional network, etc. I'd like to help, but I'd be guessing if I offered any specific guidance.

</comment><comment><USER59> Yeah it happens to me, and now i don't refuse other offer as long as i haven't signed anything.

In french we say "un tiens vaut mieux que deux tu l'auras". "One given is better than you'll get two."

Bref, you have opportunity and to your wife telle the things frankly and breath you'll find job soon.

I wish you well for the next things.

Regards.

<comment><USER60> The equivalent saying is "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> That does suck! I'm not familiar with the law in the USA but in the UK you can be let go for very little within the first 2 years of employment. You don't have a right for unfair dismissal for the first two years. The notice period is 1 week for anyone that has worked less than 2 years.

<comment><USER62> Only up to a point in the UK the race and gender discrimination laws still apply for unfair dismissal.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> No extra advice here but didn't want to read and run, good luck to you on finding something new. Like others have said, I'm sure there are a few doors still open if you're willing to get back in contact

</comment><comment><USER64> I'm going to tell you this. All those trying to scare you into being a good little child and not "burn" any bridge, I think are being very simplistic. It may show up as some "drama" or it may not but let's be honest people with much more drama in their past than exposing shady business practices are able to have functioning careers. It's your choice but I think the fear is just knee jerk reaction from simple minded thinking.

Some potential companies may look favorably on it. Companies are staffed by people, people are diverse in opinions.

</comment><comment><USER65> It sounds like you're more embarrassed than anything else. Ask yourself what your life will look like in just 6 months from today. I suspect just fine. At worst you'll still go a bright red color when you think about this after a couple of drinks. Chalk it up and be glad you didn't make the move and then find this out. I have no idea about the circumstances but it's possible these guys need to be commended for moving very quickly to stop you in your tracks once they determined that for some reason the fit wasn't right.

</comment><comment><USER66> Was in your shoes two years ago, coincidentally this exact month. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4567857](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4567857) Since then, I've met several people who were in the same boat. This sort of stuff seems to happen with regular frequency but is swept up under the rug as if its no big deal. Props for being bold & writing about it. Good luck to you sir! More than the subsequent job-hunt, it was the memory of all those false promises that hurt the most.

</comment><comment><USER67> [I've deleted the contents of this post. I apologize to readers for the inconvenience and confusion. I related a story similar to that of the OP but decided I shouldn't post about it here.]

<comment><USER63> Bloody hell, that is horrible, do you mind me asking, if there were performance issues bad enough to pick up on in the first few weeks how were they not picked up on in the interview?

<comment><USER67> That's sort of what I was trying to get across in my last paragraph. I consider it a failure of the interview process.

Granted, keep in mind that I'm not privy to all the details. He very well may have been granted a generous severance pay-out to ease the burden -- I honestly don't know.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120070](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8120070)

There's 500+ other jobs available, you can just as readily find another one.

</comment><comment><USER69> To me this is really simple. You should tell Hacker News who the company is. An employee has the right to leave whenever he wants and a company can terminate you whenever it wants.

Big companies usually do not fire for no good reason because of liability. Small companies don't have to worry as much because they don't have any money to sue for.

However these "good guys" are establishing their corporate culture now, and we hacker don't want to get dicked over too.

</comment><comment><USER64> I think you are being too nice. They have served you very poorly and I don't know if it is helpful to make any excuses or tell everyone how you are. This should have been figured out before they hired. Now, maybe you should not have put all the eggs in this startup basket. I hope you are able to find another position in the area, do t stop trying. Next to e, give yourself time to be "excited" and tell everyone about a new thing.

</comment><comment><USER70> If you are on good talking terms, and it seems like you are since you mentioned the word "polite" a few times in your post, I would politely ask them for a severance package, in case one is not included in your contract. They can of course politely not give you one. Depending on how the conversation goes, you will be able to recalibrate the "nice guy" stick you are using to measure the founders.

</comment><comment><USER71> > I officially joined as the COO.

What precisely does that mean?

IANAL, but I know that if you and they signed on the dotted line, apart from the ethics, you have legal rights. Probably fewer in the US than other places, but some protection.

If nothing was signed, then I don't think you "officially joined" as COO. From their perspective, it might simply be more of an episode of serious miscommunication, than any untoward behavior on their part.

</comment><comment><USER72> Hi Poster,

No you're not. There are no positive or negative events in life. All events are neutral. It is within your power to see them as positive. Reality doesn't care about your "destiny."

So besides my airy fairy comment above what I mean is when something bad happens you have to take massive action to get the result you want. So when young founders make DUMB decisions that screw you over you apply to 40-60 jobs a day and find a better job. You take MASSIVE action to make the situation a positive one.

You have NO time to waste complaining about what happened. Your time needs to be spent working your butt off finding new work. That means 40-60 jobs per day. That also means you should look at investing in assets so your income isn't reliant on an employer or anyone for that matter.

Life will always do this to you. Always. How you react to situations like this is what defines you. Nobody can escape this. Everyone will have ups and downs in life.

Now. Right now. Today is your time to take massive action. Not sit on hacker news or the internet all day. Not complaining to your wife. Now is your time to make this a positive situation.

If you don't believe me don't do what I say and see what happens.

<comment><USER72> Last comment: Right now it seems bad because you are all caught up in your emotions. When you start thinking logically you'll realize what I'm saying is true. Also with a masters in CS and 6 years of management experience you can earn more than $100k easily. How is that being fucked? Many people in the world would kill to be in your position, living in the silicon valley and being able to find jobs like you can. You are blessed with this education and probably a beautiful wife. Make the most of your time and be grateful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER73> F them. Those guys are jerks. Make sure you get your pay plus your vacation pay plus a severance.

</comment><comment><USER74> Please someone correct me, but assuming you didn't sign anything, I suspect your recourse beyond "AGRGRGRHRGRHGRGHRHGRRHGR" is limited (not that this posts suggests you're looking for vengeance or anything).

That really really sucks.

</comment><comment><USER75> Do you have a green card? Is there legal issues with staying in America? I think this would be helpful information; otherwise, getting a new job in Silicon Valley (or America) should be fine for someone as capable as you.

<comment><USER76> "hired and unhired in 2 weeks."

"Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa."

Looks like the "visa issue" remained to be solved.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> You're embarrassed, not fucked. You work in a high income industry, and even if you went without work for 6 months, you're not fucked. Seriously, this crisis pretty much epitomizes "first world problems". It stings, but you'll build up tougher skin and better business sense as a result.

"Deal was to work remotely, till we all figured out the visa." Honestly, that was the problem. You were dispensable, in the mind of the founders. Lesson: iron out all details before starting.

"I joined as employee #1 of a YC startup." The founders know this. If they become the next Dropbox, employee #1 becomes a millionaire or better. Even if it fails, it prestigious. Do you think that caused you to take a job that may otherwise have not taken?

</comment><comment><USER77> It's like that in start up in california.

Got interviewed, he wanted contract. I told him I'm only looking for permanent. 2 months later, project got cancelled and I got the boot.

</comment><comment><USER78> Go ahead and explain the situation to the employers whose offers you turned down. Especially in the US, people will understand, and the offers should still be valid.

<comment><USER19> "It wasn't a good fit" is always a great way to describe it, and is fairly neutral from both sides. Whatever he does, he shouldn't bad-mouth the company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> Launch a competitor.

<comment><AUTHOR> So in my interview, I mentioned that I had thought of launching the exact same company about a year ago - and one of the reasons why I took this role was because the idea for this service is very close to my heart! I like how they were executing, so I decided to join them instead of competing.

<comment><USER80> You've had many past ideas, such as:

[http://www.scatter.fm/](http://www.scatter.fm/) (and a mobile app) - <USER3> location based deal site and mobile app for hunting deals from nearby shops.

Or [https://yenbe-beta.appspot.com/](https://yenbe-beta.appspot.com/)

Seems like your ideas are generally around finding good deals, price hutning, so my guess is that the YCombinator startup that hired you is around the same idea. There are a few YCombinator startups that deal with simialr things; I don't have the time to find the entire list. Maybe someone else can do that and the HN community can figure out which company did this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> Name and shame these guys, totally not cool.

</comment><comment><USER82> Ask them if they would rather pay what they owe you or have the name of the company public in this context.

<comment><USER83> Don't ever do this. It is blackmail and will get you into a whole lot of trouble!

<comment><USER82> Is it blackmail or is it giving them an opportunity to see one reason why they should pay him what they already owe?

For context, try to imagine if the company had offered him a "legal agreement" where he was payed a few extra weeks' salary and in exchange agreed not to discuss anything.

<comment><USER83> Asking for what they owe you is fine, even asking for more is acceptable. It is the threat of an unrelated negative that is blackmail. And that the quickest way to make people unhelpful and if you leave a trace of it, its going to ruin your chances in court.

So no upside just downsides, so don't do that part of "else I am telling the world".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> did you sign a contract?

most standard contracts would be being broken by this behaviour. if i were you i'd squeeze them for having dicked you over...

</comment><comment><USER85> The startup life means there's a lot of legal and financial roiling going on at the management level that Employee #1 and below aren't allowed to see.

Probably a visa issue. Maybe a money issue (they don't dare admit that to any outsider, and employees are outsiders, so get the polite happy faced response management gives the rest of the world). Probably the all-too-typical inexperienced management issue most startups have.

When you choose to join a startup, you have to have a strong tolerance for surprises, some good, many bad. ALL of them are nice-seeming guys (nobody'd work for them otherwise). ALL of them have cool-sounding projects (will they work? Will they step on Big Legal's toes and die in deposition-induced agony? Will another 100 companies jump on the bandwagon before you can get it out there?)

It's a VC-self-serving myth that startups are succeeding at an increasing rate. See: [http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/corporate-america- hasnt-...](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/corporate-america-hasnt-been- disrupted/) for the actual stats.

Keep in mind that chasing startup dreams may not be healthy for family life, especially given that the failure rate for startups has been increasing, not decreasing.

Of course, it's always made to sound like success is just around the corner, but your most recent experience should give you a good idea whether your family's risk tolerance makes it worth it to you and those you love. The odds of dreaming turning from a bunch of extreme hidden hard work into extreme hidden burned-out failure are high. The startup world's only prescription for that is that you rest up a bit, then do it again.

There's a reason some people take the corporate jobs, save up, and only then follow their dreams.

Too many people are wasting their precious youth following the "fail early, fail often" mantra that is counterintuitive for a reason.

VCs make their money on the ones that succeed. The ones that fail don't cost VCs all that much, once you start counting actual funded startups that have passed all due dilligence and cashed the check. It's hard to filter out all those who are really only braging about funding on the way, because they've got to be convincing about already having it to have any chance of getting it.

But a steep price is being paid in wasted best years caused by startup failures. I count as failures, even these smaller "pivots" such as one where an employee is let go because different talents are needed (their stated reason to you). You wasted your time? No skin off their noses, they get to be the nice guy to somebody else they can use.

The startup world's harm is as cruel as any harm the corporate world can do. The startup world is just far less honest about the harm that it does to individual startup employees, preferring to say whatever they need to, keeping everybody's dreams alive until they absolutely can't anymore.

</comment><comment><USER86> > I like the founders - they are good guys.

No. They're not. You don't get to screw around with other people's lives and continue to possess the title of "good guy". If they were good guys, you would be receiving tens of thousands of dollars for your difficulties, and such would have enough of a runway on that such that you wouldn't need to ask us for advice. Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyond "a YC startup" so that none of us find ourselves in your shoes.

As it stands, if you had one of the other offers you were interested in, let them know that the company that you had taken reneged, and that you would love to work with them. Hiring good engineers is hard (and expensive) enough that any decent company won't mind being your second choice.

<comment><USER87> I'd say you did the right thing in not saying what the startup was — it isn't wise to look like a bridge-burner when you're looking for work.

<comment><USER88> Why is the burden always on the individual to not "burn the bridge"? I'd say that this startup has burnt this bridge pretty well. It would have been perfectly reasonable for him to tell us who they were and for us to avoid them like the plague.

<comment><USER89> Because the individual needs something, and the startup does not. what do they care if he is pissed? He's some unemployed dude they'll never have to deal with again. Meanwhile potentially having them as a resource who will say 'oh yeah Ex Employee was a really great guy, we regret losing him, definitely hire him if you can' is pretty much the only positive he's gonna get from this experience. Complain about them and you don't even get good word of mouth from the, just a ton of wasted time and an angry story to tell.

YCombinator people talk to one another. they go to meetups. San Francisco is an incestuous little town. It's hard to break into and having bad blood with people on the inside can make it harder.

<comment><USER16> _YCombinator people talk to one another._

They should talk to each other about why this was bad behavior. If the OP mentions the name, the company can respond with their reasons in an adult and professional manner, explain why they needed someone else, and how they are going to make this right. Then they look like smart, grounded pros willing to admit a mistake and will get some free marketing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER90> _I like the founders - they are good guys._

No, they're not. "Good guys" don't fire someone without a severance after 2 weeks for no reason, especially not after you've put your reputation on the line as you have.

 _I let all job offers go (I had a few good ones)_

Try to get those offers back. Explain what happened. If there's another solid option you can take, then you don't need to worry. Try to get a month or two of severance from the YCs but don't worry too much if you can't, and don't jeopardize success in your next gig by putting your energies into an all-out legal fight. If you're turned down, however, _document it_. This is going to help you make a case against the YC founders. The words you want are _detrimental reliance_ , and to make that case, you need to establish damages. A job offer you had, that you lost, constitute damages. You relied detrimentally on the offer (later rescinded) from the YC company. That's a stronger case to make than wrongful termination, which often involves venturing into the undefined behavior of at-will employment.

Then-- if you can't get a severance on the order of 3-4 months, plus reimbursement for any relocation (both ways) or visa costs you've-- get a lawyer involved and sue.

<comment><USER91> Worst YC investment ever? We took $20k investment, hired someone for one week and then fired them, got the $20k sued right out of us.

<comment><USER90> If personal cash flow isn't an issue for him, he could forgo cash severance in exchange for some equity, or strike a deal with an AoI (Agreement of Introduction) which means they agree to introduce him on positive terms to all future business contacts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER92> This almost happened to me twice in a four month period.

I was given a job offer at Pixar (back when Pixar made their own hardware). I really wanted to go there but my first son was born and I just didn't feel Pixar was quite stable enough so I turned the job down. Turned out I was right because, if I had taken the job, I would have learned Pixar was getting out of the hardware business and I would have been let go two weeks after starting.

The job I took instead was with Silicon Graphics. I was hired for my video expertise. Was sent to training, set up in a local office, and then the company did a re-organization and my new boss was in Dallas instead of Detroit. My new boss decided he wanted a Fortran programmer and not a video expert so, three months after hire, I'm gone.

</comment><comment><USER93> your not fucked...there is basically an unlimited amount of opportunity out there for what we do.

trust me...i KNOW fucked...i got caught with some recreational substances a few years back and am probation for three felony possession charges. 25y+ of software development and it's impossible..IMPOSSIBLE..for me to get past any HR for ANY decent job.

so chill out...enjoy a week off...and get hired next.

</comment><comment><USER94> Out them. Now.

</comment><comment><USER95> Did you receive a copy of signed work contract? If not, you have no case.

</comment><comment><USER96> Like soccer players, good people should be paid a "fix" in order to change jobs, so they would not starve when something like this happens.</comment>