Florida Teen Charged With Felony After Science Experiment Goes Bad - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2013/04/florida_teen_girl_charged_with.php <comment><USER4> Expulsion? Seriously? I am grasping at straws here but since it's Florida is it possible she is "the wrong color" ? Would another kid just get a suspension at best? Horrible to be thinking that way.

Did she have prior issues? If there were prior issues with warnings/suspensions, yeah I could see expulsion. If first time ever in trouble, there is something else going on here. _perfect behavior record_ seems to suggest no priors.

 _added: apparently this is an institutionalized system she was just shoved into, please read the link in this comment:_ <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5636788>

<comment><USER5> Immediately citing racism as the reason for her punishment isn't grasping at straws, it's ignorant.

Did you read the part where she was creating _explosives_ on school property? Especially within two weeks of a major bombing involving household materials!?

<comment><USER6> Ignorant? You're going to say someone else is ignorant while comparing some mild gas expansion in a closed bottle to devices designed to maim and kill. It's almost like, why am I even writing this comment...

<comment><USER7> Technically the "device designed to maim and kill" also had a gas expansion inside of a closed vessel.

I am just making this post to point out that what she was doing COULD have been dangerous or fatal, it just wasn't.

Fortunately plastic containers will fail long before the buildup of pressure becomes too powerful. But in general, that kind of explosion does and can kill.

<comment><USER8> So does a shaken up bottle of champagne. COULD that be dangerous or fatal? Story at 11.

<comment><USER5> The intent of opening and consuming a champagne bottle is different from the intent of mixing explosive chemicals in a sealed chamber, at a public school. I imagine if a child brought a champagne bottle to a school cafeteria, shook it up and threw it there would be significant consequences as well. Regardless of race.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "She made a bad choice."

Jesus. No, this _interested student_ made what, to any scientist in the history of the world, would have to be considered a _good choice_ \- mix some stuff and see what happens, outdoors and well away from anybody.

This is the new American culture of fear. It's what will ruin America - <USER2> already doing so.

<comment><USER10> Bad as this is for the girl, it's dramatic overexaggeration to say that this is "ruining America." If anything actually ruins America it would be economic depression, major war decimating generations, internal strife or massive crime waves, installation of a dictator, pandemics, etc. And if you think kids were not being subjected to intensely unfair suppression in the 30s then you may be a bit naive.

<comment><USER11> No, those things won't destroy America as all of those examples can be worked around and America can be rebuild.

But the people who have to rebuild her are people like the girl here - <USER3> without those people there may be a bunch of buildings in the geographical area that was once North America, but it will not be worthy of America.

<comment><USER12> Most of the things mentioned are things that have destroyed large and established civilizations in the past. It seems unwisely dismissive to just say the United States could just "rebuild" from one of those things. Keep in mind he/she doesn't specifically mention that any of those things are currently happening in the United States.

<comment><USER11> Yeah but those places weren't America, they were just a place.

America is special, because it was founded by people who wanted to be free, not founded by some warlords who wanted to rule over others. There is a France today because some people conquered and area and set themself up to rule. Should France be destroyed, then that will be the end of it.

Should America be destroyed, even to the point where the land that is America is just radioactive wasteland, then it can be refounded anywhere else: the Russian steppes, the island of Malta, the moon. All that are required is the idea of freedom.

But ideas can and will die if they are not nurtured by people who believe in them. This girl could have grown up to strengthen America, but now she will instead learn that thinking is dangerous, that curiosity should be oppressed, that blind obedience is the only thing that will keep you safe, that questions are treason.

And that can destroy America.

<comment><USER13> _America is special, because it was founded by people who wanted to be free, not founded by some warlords who wanted to rule over others_

America was founded by people who wanted to be free, including the freedom to rule over the others they kept as slaves.

<comment><USER9> Well, yeah, in Version 1.0, but we included a change request process, too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Several decades ago, in a Galaxy not very far away, a high school student mentioned to his friend that he had an M-80 he'd stashed in his locker for a while, and it was time to do something with it.

The firework was lit and tossed into one of the steel barrels used as garbage containers on campus. The two walked down the hall, noted the several seconds of absolute silence which settled over campus following the blast, and walked into the classroom of a teacher they both had, which was generally open during lunch. The teacher looked at both of them, shook his head and said, "Gentlemen..." with a slight smile.

One of the students retyped spirit copier forms (this _was_ several decades ago) for a teacher following lunch. The typewriter used sat in the vestibule to the principle's office. He listened that hour while the yard patrol supervisor and secretary discussed "the bomb" which had gone off, as the faint smell of burned garbage wafted through the building. That day's work had more than the usual share of errors.

Nothing more ever came of it.

My, how the world has changed.

<comment><USER15> So... a few friends and I were discussing what would happen if we lit the gas tap in the science lab. We were 11-12 and I think I had just seen an episode of Bottom with a lit gas pipe. We were strangely unattended in a science lab that day.

I turned on the tap and a friend lit it. Queue a rather cool jet of flame in the middle of the room. Teacher I guess saw the glow coming from the room. Turned it off.

Received bollocking like none other and a 2 day suspension to underline the seriousness of this.

Notably we were not accused of either arson or trying to blow up the school. Youthful - unacceptable - misadventure.

As usual there aren't any facts on what this girl was doing. On the surface though it seems expulsion and criminal action is way over the top.

<comment><USER16> Does no one blow into a gas tap to extinguish all the lit bunsens in the lab these days?

<comment><USER17> A lot of school labs only stock hot plates these days ;o(

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> To me, she is almost the perfect kid. She is curious, proactive and resourceful. What more could she be?

I really, really hate to conclude this, let alone say so in public, but I think the answer to my question is: "white".

If she were my student, I'd have her back after school, under decent supervision, to see what else she want to blow up, or to put it the proper way, experimental with. Hell, use it to kick of the most inspirational after school chemistry club ever.

Man, what are these people thinking? So sad, a child's natural curiosity becomes criminal. That should never ever happen.

Reminds me of child hackers who end up in the clutches of the law. The whole thing is perverse and absurd.

<comment><USER19> Yup. "Sorry, but we're going to have to punish you by having you stay after school. In the lab. While you help us make highly exothermic reactions. Safely. For science."

:-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Using police and criminal courts to enforce school rules is a well known problem in the US. It destroys lives and seems to be doing nothing to improve behaviour.

Calling it a 'science experiment gone wrong' is perhaps a bit disingenuous. Had she written down anything about methodology or expected results or any 'chemistry words' at all? Or had she just seen something on YouTube and decided to have a go? Still, this kind of youthful experimentation should be guided into safer forms, and not crushed under the boots of law enforcement.

<comment><USER7> I was really shocked to learn that most US secondary schools ("K12") have a police officer in them and if you get into trouble the police officer will literally come and "arrest" you.

I don't even know where to start pointing out what is wrong with THAT...

<comment><USER21> School is meant to prepare them for adulthood and the odds that an American will go to prison are relatively high.

<comment><USER22> Not really.

<comment><USER20> > the odds that an American will go to prison are relatively high.

([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate))

That "relatively" is important.

(In 2009)

        US:     743 per 100,000
        Russia: 577 per 100,000
        China:  120 per 100,000
        Canada: 117 per 100,000

Compared to other countries the chances of an American going to prison are higher, even though the chances overall are quite low.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This EXACT same thing happened to me. I had some liquid Nitrogen for a science experiment at school, put it in a 20oz Coke bottle. Of course that's not something you do without knowing mostly what will happen, as I suspect was also the case with this girl. I took it to the bathroom (somewhere with no objects or people to damage) and it exploded, making a bit of noise.

I was expelled and charged with the same sorts of felony charges - constructing a bomb, detonating a bomb at a school, etc. With a small bit of lawyering the charges were reduced to one count of misdemeanor disorderly conduct for making a loud noise. For that I was able to get "diversion" (like a lighter form of probation for juveniles), just some community service and drug testing, and could have my record sealed at 18. I was not, however, able to successfully appeal my expulsion.

I hope that this girl will be able to get a similar outcome and not end up as a felon because of this silliness.

This was in the middle of my 10th grade year. My next two and a half years doing home schooling and at the only private school in the city that would take me were terrific, I am very glad my life took a turn the way it did.

<comment><USER24> It's great that your parents had money for "lawyering" and "private school"! It would have sucked otherwise, no?

<comment><USER23> Yep, it used up most of what they had set aside for college though, which contributed in large part to my not finishing college, but that is something I am also glad turned out the way it did.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Ok, what she did was something stupid, but remember, how many times good scientists have failed like this, this is actually thinking out of the box, no one was in the vicinity, she was clearly not using this to hurt anyone, the intention was clear here, a OUT-OF-BOX experiment, she was sure no one would give her the go, since it might have been as per her judgement, on the line of safety. So what? if it went bad? If it had went good, you all be calling her a genius or something! Expulsion from the school? This is ridiculous! At max suspend her for a week, so she thinks it through, her parents should sue this school, if nothing, for causing a good kid such trauma, a good student gets devastated by a expulsion, cause it sticks, on her hard work.

No wonder we asians are talking up the good jobs in America, if this is the policy for such out-of-box thinking.

If I had done that, ten people would have asked my well being here in India, and at max, I would have had to pay the cost of destruction, and later, me and my friends would laugh it off, since its pretty badass.. blown up the roof pfft!

<comment><USER26> >"No wonder we asians are talking up the good jobs in America, if this is the policy for such out-of-box thinking." I don't feel that race is relevant here.

<comment><USER25> race is not, but educational background is. India & China are producing more graduates, post graduates, then any other country in the world. This is a known fact.

<comment><USER27> In absolute terms or per capita? They are (by quite a wide margin) the most populous countries in the world.

<comment><USER28> Well, India has a millionaire population the same size as the entire United Kingdom. But that still leaves over a billion in poverty.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Gordon Moore used to mix chemicals and make explosions when he was a boy. He even lost part of hearing due to his "experiments".

You might know him better as a founder of Intel, or the guy that "Moore's Law" is named after. If he had grown up in today's society, he'd be a felon and Intel wouldn't exist.

I worry about what we might be losing when we don't allow children to experiment.

<comment><USER30> > I worry what we might be losing when we don't allow children to experiment

Totally agreed. I can hear her in my head saying this: "Well that's the last time I experiment with anything new. I learned my lesson."

And that makes me sad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I read this, and if this story is anywhere near accurate, I can only wonder what the hell is wrong with adults today.

What is wrong with administrators, and what is wrong with prosecutors?

And where are the lawyers working pro-bono to defend her? And where are the other parents in the school to demand the school do the right thing?

I am appalled and saddened by the crap we force today's youths and young adults to put up with.

Zero tolerance has to go.

<comment><USER32> "I read this, and if this story is anywhere near accurate, I can only wonder what the hell is wrong with adults today."

There are likely a number of factors but the worst seems to be that they are scared to death by the mainstream media on a nearly daily basis. Fear sells.

"Could a couple of common household chemicals kill your family slowly and painfully if mixed incorrectly by a high school student? Tune in at 11 to find out."

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline>

<comment><USER4> omg that is horrifying - everyone needs to read the wikipedia article linked above

So many lives ruined before even becoming teenagers.

Where are their lobbyists?

<comment><USER34> Dear lord that is depressing, even more so this article linked to from wikipedia:<http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/August/12-crt-993.html>

Quote:

The department's investigation showed that the agencies have helped to operate a school-to-prison pipeline whereby children arrested in local schools become entangled in a cycle of incarceration without substantive and procedural protections required by the U.S. Constitution. The department's findings show that children in Lauderdale County have been routinely and repeatedly incarcerated for allegedly committing school disciplinary infractions and are punished disproportionately, without constitutionally required procedural safeguards. Children have also been arrested at school for offenses as minor as defiance. Furthermore, children on probation are routinely arrested and incarcerated for allegedly violating their probation by committing minor school infractions, such as dress code violations, which result in suspensions. The department's investigation showed that students most affected by this system are African-American children and children with disabilities.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Another source: [http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/312750/250/Stude...](http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/312750/250/Student- accused-of-setting-off-explosion-on-campus)

According to this report, she brought the bottles of chemicals from home to the school at 7AM (likely before first classes), where she mixed them and caused the explosion. Not quite the same as mixing the wrong vials in chem lab without permission.

<comment><USER36> Yes, if anything the fact that she brought the chemicals from home makes the case even less serious - chemicals brought from home aren't all that likely to be dangerous, whereas chemistry labs can have some unpleasant chemicals in them.

<comment><USER37> Do you have bleach in your cupboard? Maybe ammonia? :-)

To be fair, most children are told very early never to mix those.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> She will be tried as an adult? That's ridiculous, even if she was being intentionally malicious (Which I don't really believe). How do they determine whether to try kids as adults in america?

<comment><USER39> If the statistics are to be believed race and gender and age, <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_as_an_adult#Demographics>

<comment><USER40> on a totally off-topic note the next paragraph is quite funny:

"Advocates for the abolition of juvenile court Critics of the juvenile court argue that the definitions of childhood and adolescence that were used to establish the first juvenile courts in America are no longer equivalent to the definitions of childhood and adolescence today. These critics state that the boundary between juvenile and adult is no longer as clear, as children appear to grow up faster, with more exposure to adult ideas, and as adults more often engage in juvenile behaviors and activities."

That's quite a charge against 21yo drinking limit, but I don't imagine the same person using the same arguments in both contexts...

<comment><USER41> Drinking age, handgun ownership age, age of consent,cigarette smoking age have all moved up to either 18 or 21.

<comment><USER42> As has the age for working in the mines.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> In this report from 2008, black students in Florida were two and a half times more likely to be arrested, referred to court, and waived to adult courts:

[http://www.iamforkids.org/wp- content/uploads/2012/09/Promise...](http://www.iamforkids.org/wp- content/uploads/2012/09/Promise-5-Reports.pdf)

In particular, black Florida youth were almost twice as likely to be referred to adult courts as white youth.

I knew about DWB (driving while black) but apparently, LWB (learning while black) is a "thing" too:

[http://www.time.com/time/education/article/0,8599,238611,00....](http://www.time.com/time/education/article/0,8599,238611,00.html)

Quote:

 _A study [...] reports that black students, although they made up just 30% of the population of Miami-Dade County public schools in 2000-01, accounted for half the school arrests in that district._

</comment><comment><USER44> Nothing says "victory for terrorism" more eloquently that this disgraceful overreaction, triggered by fear and hysteria.

<comment><USER10> Such overreactions also occurred in the 80s and 90s.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> This is ridiculous! At our school we were over enthusiastic with a thermite experiment that burnt through the workbench, the floor and into the room below - with no consequences for anyone involved (though the teacher probably never ran that experiment again).

I expect I would have been charged with WMD possession in the States?

Sickening.

<comment><USER46> Only if you're poor and/or black. If you're able to attend private school, or a public school in an affluent district, you'd be fine. The rules are applied very differently depending on what social class you belong to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I know exactly the kind of mindset it takes to do 'experiments' like this: Clever, mischievous, inquisitive, questioning, maybe even a little defiant but not malicious. Never malicious. Authorities don't understand that knowledge and experience isn't inherently evil. If you want to prevent events like what happened in Boston, you can't do it through the policing and control of knowledge. It's impossible! I'm a girl like this girl, I had a perfect record in high school, but still (to this day!) enjoy learning about how the universe works through explosions and experiments and hands on demonstrations of half- formed understandings, because it's the best way to learn! Doing this kind of thing at school was probably a bad call. But hell, I made dry ice bombs in the football field with my physics club in 2001, and it was seriously the most fun I ever had on school property. I get this fear sometimes, a fear I call 'afraid-to-science', when I'm doing something really interesting but that could be potentially dangerous, I feel it even when I've taken all possible safety precautions, even when I know my rights, because we are all criminals sometimes if portrayed in the wrong light. If the powers-that-be decide to shine the wrong spotlight on you. Just like this girl is getting the full brunt of now...Anyway. I would also be interested in contributing to a defense fund for Kiera Wilmot. Always be learning, girl. Learning is the most worthwhile thing you can do, never stop.

</comment><comment><USER48> Even if the girl practiced poor judgement, it's obvious she was not malicious. it's remarkable how the US has become completely intolerant to people making mistakes.

So according to the article we have a girl with good grades and behavior doing something stupid which did not cause any damage or hurt anyone. Her punishment for this is expulsion and trial as adult?

<comment><USER49> Agree. I guess they (the school) really fear that this could be a repetitive trend and they want to crush it by throwing the expulsion in for her. It is unfortunate because - like you said - she doesn't seem malicious.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> So... what were the chemicals involved? Article is very vague.

Some stuff is obviously more dangerous than others.

<comment><USER51> I think putting baking soda and vinegar into a bottle and then closing it. Coke and menthos is also a possibility, but the article speaks about 'household chemicals', not candy and fizzy drink...

<comment><USER18> A sensationalist tabloid in the UK might well call candy ( sweets UK) and fizzy drinks "house hold chemicals" to ramp up the "evil" factor.

Frankly I am please to see the word "terror" hasn't been weaved in just yet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> For my high school physics group project we built a 20 foot air compressor powered potato cannon. We got a few good shots off across the football field before one of the joints failed spectacularly. Fortunately no one was injured, aside from some temporary hearing loss.

I have no idea why they let us do that, and I'm pretty sure we got an A, but this is absurdly on the other end of possible reactions.

</comment><comment><USER53> Is there a "defense fund" to contribute to? Any other constructive actions to suggest?

<comment><USER18> Cant some science favouring educational establishment give her a scholarship?

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> First rule of organic chemistry - if you mix something organic with enough nitric acid in the presence of enough sulphuric acid to use as a catalyst chances of getting something that can blow up in your hands are high.

And it is something not worthy of felony charge. The message that is sent is terrible.

</comment><comment><USER55> When I was in middle school, I had a few science teachers who would actually show us how to make bombs during experiments. We made and set off a few dry ice bombs, and at one point we were mixing chemicals and our teacher said "watch this" and proceeded to mix something with something else which set off an explosion similar to a shotgun blast, shattering the test tube holding the mixture - much to the excitement of us students. What a great way to demonstrate the laws of thermodynamics! I am now in college studying biochemistry, in part because of the lessons I learned early on that science can be fun.

The paranoia that is gripping this country is absurd and intellectually stifling. The reaction to this student's behavior should be guided encouragement, not knee-jerk punishment.

</comment><comment><USER56> This is sad. In my youth, I bursted hundreds of soda bottles. It is amazing how much noise it makes (similar to a shotgun), but it is harmless. Sometimes I would explode them with toilet bowl cleaner and foil, but my all time favorite was exploding one at the dinner table. I was trying to make seltzer with dry ice and water. My parents were not amused, but thank god I didn't try that at school.

</comment><comment><USER13> It sounds like a drano bomb: <http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/bottlebomb.asp>

<comment><USER57> That's definitely what it was from the description - household chemicals in a plastic bottle that went boom and gave off smoke.

This guy here makes a very good argument that it is a reaction and not an explosion under ATF guidelines defining how strong something has to be to be an explosion:

[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110928103240AA...](http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110928103240AA0tCGj)

He also notes that 2Al + 3H2SO4 -> 3H2 + Al2(SO4)3 is not on the prohibited list of reactions that are federally impermissible without a license.

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> In response to mob / crowd politics and mentality (heavily driven by the tort problems, fear of lawsuits), America has become a lazy nation that does what's expedient to shut the most people up and 'resolve' a situation. That by default tends to drift toward harsh penalties, since the draconian level of the punishment favors what the squeakiest wheel in the mob wants.

If you want to fix the drift toward criminalization of trivial things, get some heavy momentum going on tort reform. Sooner the better.

</comment><comment><USER59> Wow! Just, wow! I have to agree that there is quite a good likelihood that this is only a felony ... to be tried as an adult ... let that sink in for a second or two ... because she is black. We all know it. And I say that as a very fortunate, white, male that realizes how the world works. It's sad, sad and pathetic, and sadistic; as our society it dominated by sadistic values.

</comment><comment><USER60> For some reason I just don't believe the article as written. I suspect she took the chemicals without any permission, and the "experiment" was more in line with "oooo, chemicals, lets mix them together randomly".

<comment><USER61> If the part about the good grades and perfect record are true: Why would a student in good standing do something like that maliciously? It doesn't fit the "profile" of a good student.

<comment><USER62> Fireworks are simultaneously "malicious" and "awe-inspiring".

Similarly, drano bombs are "dangerous" and "exciting".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> No priors, no known intent to actually blow something up, and no one was hurt. This can't be handled in school and not require the police and courts?

The school to prison pipeline continues...

</comment><comment><USER64> Can we start a Hacker News Scholarship Fund for her or something? I'm in for a couple hundred $...

</comment><comment><USER65> Why are these school administrators even drawing a salary if they cannot or will not exercise their judgment in carrying out their duties?

</comment><comment><USER66> > She will be tried as an adult.

I don't know much about US law, but how tf could this be even possible?!

</comment><comment><USER67> When i went to 8th grade (in Sweden) we did an experiment in chemistry class where we would put a tiny bit of Sodium into a bowl of water to see it fizzle about (reacting with the water), all students where allowed to carry out this on our own. However a group of student (unaware of the possible consequences) took a chunk of sodium and put it in the water, violent reaction of course which left mark in the ceiling and glass everywhere. Nothing came out of this other than quite a long talk about dangers in chemistry and so on.

</comment><comment><USER68> This seems like a textbook case of why zero-tolerance rules are terrible.

</comment><comment><USER69> I don't think there is enough information in this article to be making judgement calls.

</comment><comment><USER70> Is there any organization that advocates for the repeal of zero tolerance policies in schools?

This has been going on for a long time and it is ridiculous.

</comment><comment><USER71> So much for criminal intent. I mixed all kinds of crap together to see what would happen when I was a kid. Glad I didn't grow up here!

</comment><comment><USER72> All children must be broken. Especially the smart and ambitious ones.

</comment><comment><USER73> I'm developing "zero tolerance" for the morons infesting and increasingly apparently driving the decisions of our society.

</comment><comment><USER74> If you're making anything but meth in Florida you must be punished.

</comment><comment><USER64> This is insane... anyone have links to petitions or anything like that? I feel like I should do something...

</comment><comment><USER75> This sounds like the toiletbowl cleaner + aluminum foil in a sealed 20 oz or 2liter bottle "experiments" I would do as a kid. I blew up a lot of bottles back then lol, it was so much fun. But quite toxic to breathe, so had to exercise more common sense than a rock.

</comment><comment><USER76> This is bad. kids are supposed to experiment. If it goes bad, so what? The law seems to be too dumb here. Her intention is to not kill anyone or damage anything. Intention is to experiment something. Why would she be expelled and put in jail for that?

</comment><comment><USER77> The type of bottle in question can be seen in this video: [http://www.wtsp.com/news/reporter/article/312878/79/Teen- gir...](http://www.wtsp.com/news/reporter/article/312878/79/Teen-girl- arrested-for-science-project-gone-bad)

Words fail me! The top of that flimsy little bottle would pop off if she filled it with grape juice and shook hard. "Possession of a weapon" indeed!

</comment><comment><USER78> Give her a college scholarship. If she were on the football team, they'd sweep it under the rug.

</comment><comment><USER79> Seems a bit harsh, eh?

</comment><comment><USER80> Only in America ....

<comment><USER81> Welcome to the circus my friend.

<comment><USER82> Where we require a constant supply of freaks and side show accidents, of clowns and strongmen to feed the show of 3rd rate tabloids. And remember, any circus can only have one director in his impeccable top hat shouting down to the audience, not more and not less.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> That is bad justice

</comment><comment><USER84> Obviously, the solution is to ban science.

</comment><comment><USER85> There must be more to this than what Maimi New Times is reporting. When I was in school half the kids in science class were constantly scheming on how to get their hands on chemicals to mix them, heat them and generally be irresponsible.

Edit: I suspect she stole the chemicals and/or this was a repeat offense.

<comment><USER86> >Edit: I suspect she stole the chemicals and/or this was a repeat offense.

There are no grounds to suspect such, the article says "Kiera Wilmot got good grades and had a perfect behavior record.". It's more reasonable to assume that this reaction is a result of the increased fear that recent bombings and school shootings have brought about.

<comment><USER87> My immediate reaction to seeing the multiple occurrences of "She must have done something to deserve it." in this thread was "Because, Racism!".

But on second thought, it's probably just the reflexive servility of the average american. The "authorities" charged her with something, so they must be right.

Bah, I mean, what's one more black girl driven to a life of marginalization and petty crime because she was too inquisitive; after all. She wasn't the first, she won't be the last; the system is supposed to divert people like her into career paths appropriate to her social status; in this case, curiosity about vinegar and baking soda means that meth cook is her only viable career choice; because it's not like she could learn enough to be an actual chemist or anything...

This country is F _CK_ D, if we are wasting the potential intellectual capacity of our young, like we are here.

<comment><USER88> "if we are wasting the potential intellectual capacity of our young"

What if we have more capacity that we can use? WRT to half of STEM grad not working in STEM and all that. You don't need a chemist at the local factory anymore when the factory moves to China.

The other thing is its a balance. Destroy an innocent life, vs the school administrators saved the school from terrorism, the prosecute saved the public from terrorism, the profitable prison industrial complex will make money off her...</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Consider dropping out of school. - <AUTHOR> http://joshwhiton.com/?p=339

<comment><USER2> _There's a long and successful tradition of self-taught learners (Ben Franklin, Kurt Vonnegut, Mark Twain, to name a few)._

Great. Now name me some successful _recent_ high-school dropouts.

 _School for me was a complete waste of time. There might have been some value to witnessing the barbarity and brokenness of it all but a dozen hours, not a dozen years, would have sufficed. It was a popularity contest that I failed every day and it got in the way of studying more interesting things._

If there was really nothing in the curriculum for you to learn (was mathematics really that easy for you?) maybe you should have focused on the popularity-contest side of things, since developing social skills is hugely useful for real life.

 _One of the girls is on the verge of being put on medication because she's so unhappy. The drugs will make her ok with her malnourished, growth-stunting, environment. They'll make her ok with jumping through inane hoop after hoop._

If you're being put on medication because you can't cope with high school, it's not a problem with high school. It's a problem with you, or maybe a problem with your doctor, but high school generally isn't that difficult an environment. You show up every day, you hang out with your friends, you go to classes, learn some stuff, you do some stupid crap that you're told to do, and you figure out a way to avoid doing some other stupid crap that you're told to do.

<comment><USER3> I did all right. I'm a high school dropout with two bachelor's degrees from Carnegie Mellon, a six-figure computer programming job and a similar disdain for the public education system.

I won't say dropping out of high school was the best thing I've ever done, but it saved me a year of boredom and staying would have done me no good. Dropping out was a much better idea than staying in.

<comment><USER4> If I may ask, how did you get into CMU without a hs diploma?

<comment><USER3> They have an early admissions program, with the unspoken assumption that you'll use credits from CMU to get a high school diploma by some arrangement. It turns out that they never say this is required, and you never actually have to do it.

I couldn't graduate from my old high school in any case, even with the extra CMU classes, because I lack a one-semester class in US Government.

I also had really good SAT scores.

<comment><USER4> Very cool of CMU, and gratz.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Someone I know was considering dropping out of university for the same reason. Instead of agreeing with them (the papers they were taking were pretty easy), I told them to seek interesting work within the department, and stop taking easy papers.

Within a few weeks, he had a ton of extra work with a top researcher, and ended up with coauthor status on a lot of papers. And this was an undergraduate. All it took was him showing interest and offering time. He even got paid.

As a lecturer, you are always looking out for students who show the slightest interest, and will open many doors if the student is capable. And if someone from highschool came and offered to help out, I'd certainly do my best to let them!

<comment><USER6> I used to optimize algorithms in the boring classes and write programs that _I_ wanted to better understand. Or learn other languages when I was bored. Dropping out because you are bored is a bad idea. I met other bored kids doing the same thing, we all got together and wrote code and learned new things and worked on other people's research that was interesting. Never thought about quitting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I was extremely bored in high school. What did I do? I negotiated agreements with teachers to let me go to the library or gym instead of class, as long as I still aced tests and didn't cause trouble. I took calculus my freshman year. I substituted in a couple classes at a community college.

I was lucky to have parental support, and top-class school administration, but working out this sort of arrangement seems less extreme and more practical than dropping out.

<comment><USER8> Not all school districts will allow such arrangements. Unfortunately some districts are hostile to anything that smells of treating students in an unequal way.

But also, if you consider taking classes in test only form ok, why not simply drop out and take the GED?

My hometown had a program where you could get a district diploma with a GED and a few key credits (which you could take at community or state college easily enough if you preferred).

<comment><USER7> > But also, if you consider taking classes in test only form ok, why not > simply drop out and take the GED?

I enjoyed playing sports. I had really outstanding English, Civics, and History teachers. I had a lot of (not always positive, but useful still) social contact with my peers. High school is full of good things, just not all the time. Take the good, find a way around the bad. I don't think I'd be a better person today if I didn't experience high school.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I am surprised by the negative response this is getting.

High school caters to a very broad audience with it's general curriculum and IMO is one of the worst ways to teach kids. I can say without a doubt that I find applications for about 15 - 20% of everything I learned in highschool past grade 10 in my life, but I'd already been programming outside of school since I was 12 or 13. Most things will simply not apply to most students, but the system needs to cater to all of the possibilities. The only reason I graduated high school was with the hope that university would allow me to actually study things I was interested in, but that's simply not the case to meet the degree requirements. In the end, I dropped out of university and got a great paying job in a startup and have done a good deal of contracting work as well; I don't feel my future career prospects are at all hampered by my lack of education.

I agree that most high school students would not live their lives to their fullest potential if they dropped out, but for those that will, this is applicable. I am definitely an edge case, but I feel that is who he is address here, and I wish someone would have told me to drop out of high school and get an earlier start.

</comment><comment><USER10> My God. Is this a joke? What kind of idiot tells kids to drop out of high school? I have a hard enough time with people who recommend skipping or dropping out of college -- but high school?!?!?

 _They told me how boring high-school was, how narrow-minded their families were._

That sounds like what 2 out of 3 teens would say. How much more typical can you get? Maybe these two teens are brilliant, I don't know. If so, they should simply accelerate and go to college earlier. But, drop out? I'm simply stunned that someone could seriously tell teens this.

<comment><USER11> Why?

For what reasons is finishing high school better than dropping out? Not that they don't exist, but you've dismissed his argument without listing any.

<comment><USER12> The problem is that every person I know would say that high school is boring. This is why most of the drug dealers I know dropped out of high school... boring and can't make money sitting in class.

At the same time I found being able to read and knowing basic math useful, but that's just me.

I don't necessarily have a problem dropping out of high school for good reason. But the article didn't show these reasons. First he met these girls one time for lunch? Unless he was really grilling them I'm not sure how smart you can really tell someone is. As a professor I've met students that are conversationally brilliant (witty, charming, etc...), and not surprisingly, it resembled little how strong they seemed in the material.

I'd even consider home schooling first. Teenagers who simply drop out are a lot more likely to get into destructive behavior. If they need challenge, I'm sure there are plenty of people who can give them this challenge in a loosely- structured manner.

<comment><USER13> "At the same time I found being able to read and knowing basic math useful, but that's just me."

According to the National Center for Education Stastistics, only 4% of high school graduates are able to read proficiently. (And by proficiently, they mean having the minimum amount of skill necessary to 'compare viewpoints in two editorials' or 'interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activity', i.e. an extremely low bar.)

<http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2006470>

<http://nces.ed.gov/NAAL/PDF/2006470.PDF>

<comment><USER2> According to me, that sounds like an incredibly dubious measure of "able to read proficiently". If only 4% of students are passing that means something is wrong with the test, because experience tells us that the majority of people are quite capable of reading normal passages and understanding what they mean.

<comment><USER14> What experience? I know quite a few people (not the HN crowd) who are reasonably smart, but give them a newspaper editorial by itself and they'll be lost. Not 96% of people I know, but a decent amount.

<comment><USER2> Because they lack the ability to read, or because they lack background knowledge on the subject of the editorial?

Take, for instance, today's editorial in the Telegraph (of Calcutta):

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qrMr6hx...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qrMr6hxqGJ8J:www.telegraphindia.com/1070317/asp/opinion/story_7527382.asp+the+telegraph+editorial&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

I'm pretty lost trying to read that. If I didn't keep up with US politics I'd be equally lost trying to read the New York Times.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> _For one, it's clear that these two are autodidacts self-taught people who easily learn what they need when they need it._

I can't speak for everyone, or even a specific _type_ of person, but for me highschool was a huge distraction. I would learn more on my own, doing my own research. I've always found that your interests for specific subjects develop at different times for different people.

Our public education system (in Canada, at least) is among the best, but it faces many challenges. One being funding. Funding effects how quickly education is dispersed among students. The world isn't perfect, but we're sending students out into jobs with archaic information from 5-10 year-old textbooks.

If you have common sense about you, a Google search combined with thoughtful fact validation rivals your public highschool's education platform. I know I'm going to see some unhappy comments about that statement, again, my experience only.

<comment><USER16> High school didn't have to be a distraction. Did you take the most advanced courses offered? Did you attempt to graduate early?

I don't remember what I actually learned in High school but it helped me get into University and get a job. Google is great and looking up facts and even teaching but you can't put "Advanced Google Searcher" on your resume. High school and even University are both aids to transition to the real world and are only what you make of them. You can be successful without any formal education but the average person will be more successful sticking to school.

<comment><USER15> _Google is great and looking up facts and even teaching but you can't put "Advanced Google Searcher" on your resume._

 _You can be successful without any formal education but the average person will be more successful sticking to school._

I totally agree.

I managed to get a lot of experience behind me before I officially started my career. I know that a few parameters made the situation available to me.

But one can't help think that perhaps ability/passion > education. Especially when the education isn't being utilized. So why are employers looking for educated persons first? I think it shows commitment. Commitment, ability and passion don't always run the same linage, though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I believe this, too, was linked from Hacker News at some point recently:

<http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html>

John Taylor Gatto, New York State Teacher of the Year, 1991

"The third lesson I teach you is to surrender your will to a predestined chain of command. Rights may be granted or withheld, by authority, without appeal. As a schoolteacher I intervene in many personal decisions, issuing a Pass for those I deem legitimate, or initiating a disciplinary confrontation for behavior that threatens my control. My judgments come thick and fast, because individuality is trying constantly to assert itself in my classroom. Individuality is a curse to all systems of classification, a contradiction of class theory.

Here are some common ways it shows up: children sneak away for a private moment in the toilet on the pretext of moving their bowels; they trick me out of a private instant in the hallway on the grounds that they need water. Sometimes free will appears right in front of me in children angry, depressed or exhilarated by things outside my ken. Rights in such things cannot exist for schoolteachers; only privileges, which can be withdrawn, exist.

The fourth lesson I teach is that only I determine what curriculum you will study. (Rather, I enforce decisions transmitted by the people who pay me). This power lets me separate good kids from bad kids instantly. Good kids do the tasks I appoint with a minimum of conflict and a decent show of enthusiasm. Of the millions of things of value to learn, I decide what few we have time for. The choices are mine. Curiosity has no important place in my work, only conformity.

Bad kids fight against this, of course, trying openly or covertly to make decisions for themselves about what they will learn. How can we allow that and survive as schoolteachers? Fortunately there are procedures to break the will of those who resist.

This is another way I teach the lesson of dependency. Good people wait for a teacher to tell them what to do. This is the most important lesson of all, that we must wait for other people, better trained than ourselves, to make the meanings of our lives. It is no exaggeration to say that our entire economy depends upon this lesson being learned. Think of what would fall apart if kids weren't trained in the dependency lesson: The social-service businesses could hardly survive, including the fast-growing counseling industry; commercial entertainment of all sorts, along with television, would wither if people remembered how to make their own fun; the food services, restaurants and prepared-food warehouses would shrink if people returned to making their own meals rather than depending on strangers to cook for them. Much of modern law, medicine, and engineering would go too — the clothing business as well — unless a guaranteed supply of helpless people poured out of our schools each year. We've built a way of life that depends on people doing what they are told because they don't know any other way. For God's sake, let's not rock that boat!"

</comment><comment><USER18> Good advice. When I think back to my high school days what I remember most is dread and discontent, despite the fact that I was well liked. The material was boring and had only a tenuous connection to the "real world", where "real world" means the application and practical learning of skills. I would have been better off apprenticing, learning on my own or even being taught by parents.

If anything has changed since my High School days it's that schools have gotten worse. They're more authoritarian and paranoid (cameras and patrols abound in the hallways), are even worse at teaching teenagers anything (look at their abysmal performance. This is a well known problem), and want even more money.

You can try blaming the kids for the problems like hugh3 does, but the fact of the matter is that there are so many people doing poorly in and feeling poorly about school that it can hardly be rationalized away as the individual's fault. The problem is the system, i.e. the schools themselves.

</comment><comment><USER17> Wasn't this linked recently from Hacker News? Seems relevant:

[http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/nurture- shock/2009/11/05/why-t...](http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/nurture- shock/2009/11/05/why-teenagers-are-growing-up-so-slowly-today.html)

"Allen has concluded that our urge to protect teenagers from real life – because we don't think they're ready yet – has tragically backfired. By insulating them from adult-like work, adult social relationships, and adult consequences, we have only delayed their development. We have made it harder for them to grow up. Maybe even made it impossible to grow up on time. Basically, we long ago decided that teens ought to be in school, not in the labor force. Education was their future. But the structure of schools is endlessly repetitive. "From a Martian's perspective, high schools look virtually the same as sixth grade," said Allen. "There's no recognition, in the structure of school, that these are very different people with different capabilities." Strapped to desks for 13+ years, school becomes both incredibly montonous, artificial, and cookie-cutter. As Allen writes, "We place kids in schools together with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of other kids typically from similar economic and cultural backgrounds. We group them all within a year or so of one another in age. We equip them with similar gadgets, expose them to the same TV shows, lessons, and sports. We ask them all to take almost the exact same courses and do the exact same work and be graded relative to one another. We give them only a handful of ways in which they can meaningfully demonstrate their competencies. And then we're surprised they have some difficulty establishing a sense of their own individuality."

</comment><comment><USER19> It sounds like there are some serious psychological problems at work here. From his description of his high school experience, it appears he was suffering from fairly serious depression. At least one of these girls is suffering from similar problems.

He appears to have grown out of his depression, though he's not clear on exactly how he turned things around. It's possible that a change of scenery would do the girls good, but we shouldn't assume that their psychological issues are entirely the result of their environment. When someone is suffering from depression, they are sick. If they move to some sort of alternate schooling arrangement, it should be under the supervision of a trained professional.

<comment><AUTHOR> "When someone is suffering from depression, they are sick."

That's what drug companies say. Another theory is that depression is a healthy response to something in the outer or inner life that must change. So a bout of depression, uncomfortable as it may be, can be integral to growth.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Dropping out of school, esp. high school is a bad idea. First of all, no one will take a high school aged kid seriously. Second of all it would seriously hurt their chances of getting into college (regardless of what people say about college, it's still useful for most people with a tech degree.) I mean, sure you can backwards rationalize that once you drop out you will learn more, but success in life isn't all about how much book knowledge one has. It also has a lot (probably even more) to do with social skills which one can work on while surrounded by classmates and teachers in high school.

</comment><comment><USER21> How hard is it to change schools? Not all schools are equal, nor are all teachers. Ask around and find out if there are better, perhaps private, schools where you would fit in better. Ask yourself if you'd be willing to move to go to better school. I realized that I wouldn't be happy at my default high school, so instead of moaning about it or dropping out, I found a better school and went there instead.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> _When I was a kid, I would just walk around reading books all the time. And I was also the youngest kid in my grade, so I was quite small. I was kind of a smart aleck. It was a recipe for disaster. I'd get called every name in the book and beaten up. That was my schooling experience._

\- Elon Musk

</comment><comment><USER22> This seems like making lame excuses to me. If an american high school seems too easy for you, there are far more interesting / challenging schools elsewhere.

I hear nordic and asian countries have very strong education systems. Fwiw, even my little high school had a neat robotics extra-curricular class w/ Lego Mindstorms.

</comment><comment><USER23> tell the depressed girl to join a band.

</comment><comment><USER24> Unfortunately, a high school education and a college degree are some of the hardest, set-in-stone hiring requirements for most white-collar jobs (with some exceptions, of course).

Dropping out of high school voluntarily is a short-term rush with potential long-term adverse side effects.

<comment><USER25> I think if you have a college degree, most employeers I ran into don't care for a high school education. One of the points in the article is that you can still get into college without finishing high school.

<comment><USER2> Can you get into _a_ college? Yes. Are you equally or more likely to get into your particular college of choice? I'd want some damn good evidence of that claim.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: A list of programmers coding live - <AUTHOR> https://shipstreams.com/ <comment><AUTHOR> Heya!

I'm Armin, I built shipstreams.com. Inspired by Pat Walls building "You Don't Need WordPress" live on Twitch in 24h, I created this list of makers streaming their work!

After many hours on Twitch I found many cool people doing so much great work. There is always to learn something while looking over someone's shoulder :)

If you want to add yourself and build with us, you can use the Submit Form. - I'm especially on the lookout for more streaming women makers!

In the future, I'd like to add Youtube-Code-Steamers as well, or maybe you know of other Websites who host some Makers? Could see shipstreams as an aggregator for all of them :)

Cheers and see you Live, Armin

Links: Telegram Notification Channel: [http://t.me/shipstreams](http://t.me/shipstreams) Submit Form: [https://shipstreams.com/submit](https://shipstreams.com/submit) Github: [https://github.com/arminulrich/shipstreams.com](https://github.com/arminulrich/shipstreams.com) (Laravel + Vue.js - hacked together in 24 hours )

<comment><USER2> Feature request: Ability to search by technologies being used.

eg: Golang, redis, aws, AI, etc.

<comment><USER3> Yes, this is the first thing I tried to do.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Genuine question: What is the appeal of watching live coding? Who watches these? I'm watching code all day long, arguing about it, understanding it on my workplace, if I get home, there is no way I want to watch another guy live coding. Maybe doing my own thing when I'm free and not tied to a gazillion rules of how to do things.

<comment><USER5> I think the appeal is the same for watching any other high performance. Specifically, it can be entertaining to see how others do things, and there is potential for you to pick up some useful knowledge in the form of a problem solving technique, or maybe a workflow you haven't considered.

<comment><USER4> But you can do that by reading code of Open Source projects, which is more effective IMO.

<comment><USER6> Well, you can learn _actively_ from researching opens source projects. Or you can learn _passively_ by watching others code.

The first is more effective but the second is easier and more entertaining.

<comment><USER4> I disagree with this. I think you are not passive watching live coding almost the same way like you are pair programming and you are the observer.

<comment><USER6> Watching a stream is passive, like watching a movie. Pair programming is interactive, as you are right next to the person.

Unless you're commenting on the stream, it's a very passive act of learning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> If they're literally all on Twitch, why would I use this site instead of just searching for software devs via Twitch directly?

<comment><AUTHOR> I keep this list curated, so I confirm these people are doing mostly coding streams - and in future steps, I'd like to add more platforms :)

I started out last week with like five people, and only twitch people kept writing me so far :)

<comment><USER8> It's a good discovery tool. I actually searched for devs doing live coding in twitch few days back but barely found anyone.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Wonderful, This is exactly what I was looking for a few days ago and someone already did it. twitch is primarily a place for gamers but good to see programmers. I follow Stephen Wolfram and Holden Karau 's live coding and code reviews.

</comment><comment><USER9> Nice to see some manual curation in this space. For some reason, I've found Twitch's categorization of this type of stream to be challenging to find (i.e. it's under creative, but hard to filter from the rest of that category unless people specifically tag it things like development or programming).

<comment><USER10> I could be wrong, as I don't often browse Twitch, but you might want to take another look. From what I heard they've killed IRL and Creative and replaced them with more segmented categories.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Good stuff, I remember seeing Walls' tweet [0], and watching this site go up on Product Hunt soon after he finished. I do wonder though, is this a more focused version of Twitch's Programming directory [1]?

[0] [https://twitter.com/thepatwalls/status/1043242997050167302](https://twitter.com/thepatwalls/status/1043242997050167302) [1] [https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Programming](https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Programming)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I keep this list curated, so I confirm these people are doing mostly coding streams - and in future steps, I'll add more and more platforms!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I would love to stream as I program, but I'm too afraid of accidentally showing a password or API key or something and pwning myself.

<comment><USER13> Here's a product idea: a screen recorder that understands password inputs and things like "API key" or "API secret" and blurs it automatically.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I streamed on Twitch for a while [1], the change they made with the categories now officially kills off programming streams and show that they don't really care about it.

Curating streams this way is very useful and looks good.

[1] [https://www.twitch.tv/kensodev](https://www.twitch.tv/kensodev)

<comment><USER15> Heya! I just wanted to say thanks for your streams. I haven't been watching streams in general lately due to life being much busier, but yours in particular were super interesting and I learned a ton!

<comment><USER14> Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This is cool, twitch and youtube are both great platforms to stream.

It's funny there was a new platform linked here on HN I think a few years ago, and it did pretty well, I streamed on it for a while, but it never got the traction they wanted so they pivoted to live edu or something.

This getting to the front page shows me that it's better to start very small and work from there if you want to make a new community.

I'm not saying that shipstreams is going to host their own streams one day, independent of twitch or youtube, but given a good start like this, it's at least a possibility.

Is this embrace, extend, extinguish?

Regardless, congrats on shipping!

</comment><comment><USER17> Rachael Tatman at Kaggle does a livestream on Twitch every Friday: [https://www.twitch.tv/rctatman](https://www.twitch.tv/rctatman)

</comment><comment><USER18> Here's another site of curated programming centered streams: [https://belly.io/programming](https://belly.io/programming)

</comment><comment><USER19> Great idea, but none of the livestreaming coders I follow on Twitch are listed. Stephen Wolfram is a notable omission but there are some other great livestreams on Twtich creative.

</comment><comment><USER20> Looks good, but not a big fan of the autoplaying video.

If I could click a button and start playing the video instead that would be great.

<comment><USER21> You may be interested in a global solution Firefox: [https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/disable- autop...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/disable- autoplay/?src=search) Chrome: I don't know any good one off the top of my head, sorry

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> anyone know what happened to livecoding.tv?

<comment><USER23> A disaster happened: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10486476](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10486476)

<comment><USER22> wow, i never knew about that! just reading through the comments, i don't particularly find anything offensive with Michael's responses. am i missing something?

<comment><USER24> You might need "showdead" in your HN options to see all of it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> devstream.io does this also. Maybe not as polished though.

</comment><comment><USER26> Can you post your chaturbate profile instead?

</comment><comment><USER27> I have a real suspicion towards anything that's featured on ProductHunt. I hope that this post's upvotes are genuine!

<comment><USER21> may I ask why?

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> -snip-

<comment><AUTHOR> everyone was asked or submitted themselves via the form :)

<comment><USER28> Nice, good human in action 8)</comment></comment></comment>


Web Frameworks for Desktop Apps: An Exploratory Study [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://gianlucascoccia.github.io/assets/pdf/ESEM2020.pdf <comment><AUTHOR> Author here. This is a first research we conducted to assess how frameworks for web-based desktop apps (e.g., Electron) are used in practice. It's a preliminary work that we plan on expanding in the future. Do the findings reflect your experience working with these frameworks? A re there other aspects we haven't mentioned in the paper that you deem relevant? What aspects of these frameworks you think could be improved?</comment>


One Kings Lane sold for less than $30M after being valued at $900M - <AUTHOR> http://www.recode.net/2016/8/23/12588428/one-kings-lane-flash-sales-acquisition-price-bed-bath-beyond <comment><USER2> Funny how this valuation thing works?! I'm really intrigued by the mechanics of how value goes up and down like this. Makes one wonder</comment>


The Deferred Dreams of Mars - <AUTHOR> http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/429620/the-deferred-dreams-of-mars/

<comment><USER2> I need a Mars globe now.</comment>


The Chipophone – A homemade 8-bit synthesizer (2010) - <AUTHOR> http://www.linusakesson.net/chipophone/index.php <comment><USER2> This is the same guy who won the Underhanded C competition earlier this week: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11032542](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11032542)

Edited: typos

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm really in awe of this guy. He does so much amazing work.

If you like the Chipophone, you have to check out the little synths he made for Teenage Engineering: [http://www.linusakesson.net/music/po-2x/index.php](http://www.linusakesson.net/music/po-2x/index.php)

<comment><USER4> Ah nice, I had just seen a video of the Commando theme being played on the new pocket operators[1] and it reminded me of the Chipophone. No wonder it seemed familiar...

[1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihjcUuGttKU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihjcUuGttKU)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> There was a time when making things like this was my dream. Then I realized 15 years of experience programming didn't translate to any experience with a soldering iron. That didn't discourage me from learning more about electronics, but it did change my focus on how I might start entrepreneurial ventures.

</comment><comment><USER6> This really amazes me, great job. Much preferred to the "live coding" link of yesterday which I found a bit shallow.

</comment><comment><USER7> Can't you just get any MIDI keyboard, hook it up to a PC and have any sound you want, including chiptune?

<comment><USER8> Yeah, but that's no fun at all. Plus, the organ has a bunch of functions that piano keyboards don't, like two separate keyboards and pedals.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This has been around on the Internet for many years.

<comment><USER10> [https://xkcd.com/1053/](https://xkcd.com/1053/)</comment></comment>


Sndtst: 8-bit video game music - <AUTHOR> http://sndtst.com/ <comment><USER2> Thanks for sharing. Apart from the surge of nostalgia, anyone should listen to the streets of rage soundtrack (1991). [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discography_of_the_Streets_of_R...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discography_of_the_Streets_of_Rage_series) I used to play the game just to listen to the music. It might sound old fashioned now but it was incredible back then.

<comment><USER3> F-Zero and F-Zero X are games I used to play just for the music. They are so metal.

There is an excellent album with all the music played on real instruments [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I9h7SkZICg&list=PLF1AF918F7...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I9h7SkZICg&list=PLF1AF918F76BDA5A0)

<comment><USER4> In the same vein, here is a live speedrun of Mega Man X, accompanied by live music as the game is played. They look like they're having a blast playing this music.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnQ7bDGhOLI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnQ7bDGhOLI)

I'd often try to get stuck somewhere just to groove to the music while cleaning my room as a kid.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I really love this version of the Super Mario World soundtrack by Xoc:

[https://archive.org/details/xoc_SMW](https://archive.org/details/xoc_SMW)

<comment><USER2> Great sounding. I can only imagine the work behind this soundtrack!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Neat site, but most of these games were 16-bit... all these songs are still under copyright though so I worry for the site's longevity...

<comment><USER7> You know you can google "mario roms" and find hundreds of sites hosting the actual _games_ (not just the music) that have been up for _years_ , right? I think this one will be fine.

<comment><USER8> You can also find these tracks using Google at higher qualities with proper tags/metadata and a complete set of album art.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I really like the website interface. By the way you can find many soundtracks here (about 5500 individual songs) in the archives located here: [http://www.hotdogstorm.com/bucky/GameMusicArchives/](http://www.hotdogstorm.com/bucky/GameMusicArchives/) They are in NSFE format which can be played or converted to anything else using foobar2000 and the Game Emu Player plugin.

</comment><comment><USER2> There are so many fine music pieces trapped in video games, from composers no one will ever hear of (with notable exceptions). Check battle of olympus "name entry" (sic). Ok its a very simple tune, but that reminds me of François de Roubaix. Battle of Olympus is famous for its soundtrack but you can hardly find anything on the composer.

</comment><comment><USER10> Nice. I made a small page with a dozen or two songs that I'd ripped from games, years and years ago now, and it was one of the few pages on my old site that got regular traffic. People are always looking for a quick handy resource like this and your version is great. Thanks!

</comment><comment><USER11> This reminded me of aersia.net, it has a few playlists with game music.

[http://vip.aersia.net/vip.swf](http://vip.aersia.net/vip.swf) [http://vip.aersia.net/vip-exiled.swf](http://vip.aersia.net/vip-exiled.swf)

</comment><comment><USER12> Doom and Doom 2 were 32-bit games...

<comment><USER13> Yeah the "8-bit" part came from a (really cool) newsletter called The Happening from the Kickstarter employees. I don't think I made a claim like that. My only standard was non CD, I don't know why I guess it feels like I'm surfacing great music that is harder to hear again. The best example of this I can think of is [http://sndtst.com/Continuum](http://sndtst.com/Continuum) I had to trick down and build (on OSX) some obscure utilities and libraries to get this specific Amiga MOD rip into a wav format so I could upload it. I've also be encoding these from the the original VGM, NSF, HUE and SPC files with the great library [Game Music Emu]([https://code.google.com/p/game-music- emu/](https://code.google.com/p/game-music-emu/)) some simple C I adapted [https://gist.github.com/jasonsperske/5ce7f90bf591454a08bc#fi...](https://gist.github.com/jasonsperske/5ce7f90bf591454a08bc#file- sndtst-cpp). This project is really my chance to play with HTML5 audio, Python and (very limited) C (and to have something fun playing in my car and while I program :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Suggestion: Xenon 2 Megablast.

Megablast became Bomb the Bass.

Great version of Assault on Precinct 13 by John Carpenter.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon_2_Megablast](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon_2_Megablast)

</comment><comment><USER15> looks like you could use my bootstra/386 theme: [https://github.com/kristopolous/BOOTSTRA.386](https://github.com/kristopolous/BOOTSTRA.386)

<comment><USER13> Maybe not for this project, though I will certainly try, but my goodness I want to make something just to highlight this theme, Great Job!

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I think the player interface needs some tweaking. Putting the pause/play button all the way in the bottom right corner is... unconventional.

</comment><comment><USER17> This is the only one that matters: [http://sndtst.com/Mega_Man_III](http://sndtst.com/Mega_Man_III)

:)

<comment><USER16> And this! [http://sndtst.com/Chrono_Trigger](http://sndtst.com/Chrono_Trigger)

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Thank you, this really brings back nice memories for most of us over 35 ;)

<comment><USER19> And for us over 30 as well :P ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> No love for firefox? It played on safari, but not mozilla.

<comment><USER13> Interesting. I'm really interested in learning more about what you are experiencing. I have been developing this almost entirely in Firefox for OSX and haven't had an issue playing music. I also extensively tested it in Chrome and iOS Safari. Anything you can tell me about your setup? Browser version? OS? flash plugin?(jPlayer has a flash fallback, maybe that's causing issues)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Great work. Having a download all link would be awesome.

<comment><USER13> When a song is playing a download link for the OGG and mp3 versions appears to the right of the track. It's really more of an after thought (I created the site primarily as a music streaming site, but the request came up so much I added it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Thanks for doing this. :) Awesome selection.

</comment><comment><USER23> thanks for this. awesome!

<comment><USER13> Want a fun Easter Egg? Try and guess a game (by URL) I likely don't have it, but if you go there [http://sndtst.com/The_7th_Guest](http://sndtst.com/The_7th_Guest) you get a page that helps you ask for it to be added (and possibly pester whoever owns the rights to it to let it be uploaded, hint hint The Fat Man)</comment></comment>


Streamline your forms with widgets - <AUTHOR> http://www.thinkvitamin.com/features/css/streamline-your-forms-with-widgets

<comment><USER2> The comments are the article express all of my concerns the main one being the javascript and screenreader requirements. Take a look at them to see their insights into the example.

</comment><comment><USER3> I dunno if I agree this one. Too many options is overwhelming, but it would work a lot better if the box stayed open when you clicked on it.

</comment><comment><USER4> What this is going to solve? It's just less usable since you need to open the tabs to look what's inside.

</comment><comment><USER5> Collapsing DIVs solved this problem a long time ago, and they don't break tabbing or require ugly hacks.</comment>


Ridiculous Small-Business Plan Encouraged By Friends - <AUTHOR> http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39174 <comment><USER2> Had this been a real front page article in New York Times or LA Times, she would have other newspaper and television companies contacting her to feature her story. She would also easily have enough orders to reach $100,000 in the first year. There are a lot of very, very rich people with dogs who would be in the market for this for novelty as well as health reasons.

And since she's making them by hand, she could customize each order with the owner's suggestions about what their dog likes.

For satire, it could be written better, without the "terrible idea" or "ill- conceived" remarks made by the author. There are a lot of stupid, low-volume ideas like this that aren't well-thought through and are just done almost as a hobby, without a business plan or addressing scalability, that can generate full-time income after a big media story about it. Sometimes the novelty of an idea, and reliance on one person, actually gives the person a "moat" and a small niche, both of which make it hard for big established companies to compete, as well as the credibility from having been the first person to get major press coverage about it.

Starting in Montana could also be smart, since it's a mail order business and she can likely get her ingredients much cheaper there, even though most of her big ticket customers would be in big cities across the US.

If this somehow didn't generate enough sales, she could use her new-found expertise as a "nationally-known dog chef" and work for somebody rich like Donald Trump, or even release products under the Donald Trump name.

The reason she would be an expert, by the way, is because by working on something full-time, even if she ends up making less money than expected, she would have become skilled and recognized as an expert, rather than a 2nd shift clerk at a store, or any other job you she have held before.

</comment><comment><USER3> I was studying marketing when the 'super premium pet food' segment was invented. The idea that dog and cat were prepared to paid $US 3 per 4oz can of food was amazing.

At the time the best steak or fish was about $7 /lb

This could be a multimillion dollar company.

<comment><USER4> <http://www.google.com/search?q=gourmet+dog+biscuits>

About 350,000 results!

Not all ideas are bad, just because they didn't follow an MBA's market research. The guy that invented the super soaker came up with the idea while doing some plumbing in his bathroom. It took him years of determination to see it to success -- it's those years of determination that make the difference.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> _There's a huge untapped market for high-end dog treats made with natural ingredients, and I'm getting in on the ground floor. If you don't believe me, ask my friend Angie_

<http://www.doghousebagels.com/>

<comment><USER6> A low carb diet for dogs - that is just sick...

<comment><USER7> Isn't a natural doggy diet just atkins supplemented by the dog's own poo?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> She needs 4000% growth in sales by year end to remain in business. And I wouldn't be surprised if it grows by 8000%. God! Look at the way Karen Sabin speaks. The love and passion for her dream is clear in her statements. This woman is going to make it big. And I'm sure she's soon going to be the poster- woman of every business magazine very soon. Enormous passion! I bet she'll even easily crush Google if there's something called Google Pet Food.

Its a treat to aspiring entrepreneurial minds to read stories of such people with unique ideas.

Go Sabin! go!

<comment><USER8> Ouch! I didn't notice that the article dates back to October 29th, 2003.

@ordinaryman: thanks for pointing that out. I liked the story so much that I had just made up my mind to make an online store for her for free once my exams are over(I was searching the contact details of her business).

Anyways, I did some googling only to see onion and entrepreneurs.com pages talking about her. Nothing much.

But I pray she's doing good in business. I hate to see enthusiastic people, so passionate about their dreams, giving it up. If she's still in business I would like to see her in the headlines soon.

<comment><USER9> It's _the Onion_.

<comment><USER10> About 8 years ago I remember reading an advice column in which the letter writer was concerned because her child's friends were all reading Harry Potter. She referenced this article: [http://www.theonion.com/content/news/harry_potter_books_spar...](http://www.theonion.com/content/news/harry_potter_books_spark_rise_in)

The advice columnist was pleased to explain the purposes of _the Onion_

<comment><USER11> That particular story actually went much further than a single letter writer:

<http://www.snopes.com/humor/iftrue/potter.asp>

And it's not the only such incident:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion#The_Onion_taken_serio...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion#The_Onion_taken_seriously)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> it's depressing that the onion correlates with reality to a higher degree than mainstream media.

<comment><USER13> _it's depressing that the onion correlates with reality to a higher degree than mainstream media._

That's the whole point. If the mainstream media did its job, there would be no onion.

(Just like if the corporate world made any sense, there would be no Dilbert.)

<comment><USER14> No room for parody or farce? That's plainly false.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I think this could actually work. I'd say it would most probably work.

<comment><USER15> It's not the idea per se thats bad. There are a number of stories on YC which point to this problem: Most ideas are nothing without execution. (most recent: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=237096> )

<comment><USER16> Hell, I was in LA last week and saw a gourmet bakery for pets. No joke. They seemed to be doing brisk business. Several customers went in with their pets in the time it took me to drive by.

<comment><USER17> There's one here in Truckee, CA.

<comment><USER18> Seattle's version of this "ridiculous" idea: <http://www.mudbay.us/>

Mud Bay Granary isn't exactly a bakery, but it does nothing but sell expensive, organic, gourmet pet food. It's been in Seattle for years, and there are at least a half-dozen stores.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> As I was reading this article, it reminded me so much of a bakery specifically for dogs I'd heard about.

<http://www.threedog.com/> \- Three Dog Bakery... 47 stores worldwide wtf?

It just goes to show, that with some niches, you can sell people pretty much anything.

</comment><comment><USER13> Make something dogs want.

<comment><USER20> Because dogs can buy things.

<comment><USER21> Hey, don't knock it - pets drive almost as much spending as children do!

<comment><USER22> so make something dog owners want. unlike children dogs don't typically whine until they get what they want.

<comment><USER21> Lots of dog owners want pampered dogs, just like lots of parents want spoiled kids ("I want to give them all the stuff I never had...").

According to the APPMA statistics on spending("Pet Industry Statistics and Trends"), Americans spent 34.4 billion dollars on their pets in 2004, which means pet-related spending has doubled in the last 10 years in the US.

The APPMA's reported the following breakdown for the areas in which money is spent on pets (2004 figures for the US)

$14.2 billion for food

$8.1 billion for supplies and OTC medications

$8.2 billion for veterinarian care

$1.6 billion for live animal purchases

$2.31 billion for other services such as grooming and boarding

[http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/resourcesgeneral/a/petstates....](http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/resourcesgeneral/a/petstates.htm)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'm a seed-stage investor in the company. You think pets.com was big? You just wait.

</comment><comment><USER23> Okay... on the one hand, I can see how someone could build a successful business around this.

On the other hand, if your business idea doesn't create and capture more value for humanity than this, I'd suggest going back to the drawing board.

Your standards may be too low, aim higher.

<comment><USER16> Businesses are sometimes built on the most unlikely of ideas. Selling tumbleweeds online, for example.

[http://thatslifeinthecity.blogspot.com/2007/11/kansas- womans...](http://thatslifeinthecity.blogspot.com/2007/11/kansas-womans- online-tumbleweed.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> it's a funny headline, but the business idea seems completely plausible.

<comment><USER25> The idea seems plausible, but is it something that some random person at home can execute on? The numbers didn't look good.

<comment><USER26> Yes - in the article, she said she wanted to open a storefront with a bakery about a year later, and they estimated that she would need to sell 90,000 biscuits at $1.50 each to get there.

      $ dc -e '2 k 90000 365 / p'
      246.57

That's a lot of biscuits to make by hand. Let's take it a step further:

      $ dc -e '2 k 245.57 12 / p'
      20.46

If you assume each batch of a dozen takes an hour to make, assume typical kitchen equipment (i.e., no double oven), and assume a little pipelining, she would barely have enough waking hours to get it done. There's no time left for actually packaging or selling the biscuits.

<comment><USER27> I'm guessing you never baked before, but batches aren't one dozen and you can whip through them in short order. 240 cookies (er, biscuits) would be about 10 cycles if you have two half sheet pans. Depending on chill time (if any) you could knock through it in a regular home oven in three hours fairly easily. With some actual equipment and a helper, it would be half that. Bakeries make ridiculous amounts of baked goods and still time find to sell 'em.

<comment><USER26> _I'm guessing you never baked before..._

This discussion is already stupid. No need to make it worse.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> > Due in large part to the encouragement of her so-called friends, 34-year-old > Karen Sabin quit her steady job

Friends are the ones who you want to support you, not shoot you down so you're still on the ground with them. If your friends are silent/neutral/negative, hang out with other hackers/entrepreneurs (join/start a group in your locale).

</comment><comment><USER29> The Onion, too real: <http://www.doghousekitchen.com/>

</comment><comment><USER30> the problem is not the idea - pets are a huge market.

Through out the story (fake or not), her freinds kept encourage her to do wrong things, she should have started smaller, not quite her job until she got a solid amoutn of order, this is a web/ecomerce business and getting a store front would be the second this I would do after the web and whole sale business was rolling.

Also the name of the product is horrible: "Grandma Sabin's Low-Fat Biscuits For Particularly Finicky Dogs,"

way too long, and "Particularly Finicky" - how about: Grandma Sabin's Gourmet Big Biscuits. All Natural, Low Fat Delicious Dog Biscuits.

</comment><comment><USER31> Now if she offered Gerber 2% of her equity to build a platform for her business...

</comment><comment><USER32> Great work Onion, brilliant parody. But the business idea itself is not that bad.

</comment><comment><USER33> I actually know someone who quit his job so he could work on his natural dog food business full-time.

Last I heard, he was doing well.

</comment><comment><USER34> Taking in mind there are people buying diapers for their dogs, I don't see why such an idea wouldn't work (if marketed well).

</comment><comment><USER35> The article dates back to Oct 2003. The outcome of the venture should already be known.

<comment><USER9> It's _the Onion_.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> No. No no no no no no. Please no Onion on the Hacker News front page.</comment>