Chariot is shutting down - <AUTHOR> https://blog.chariot.com/2019/01/10/important-update-from-chariot/ <comment><USER2> I used Chariot a bit a couple years ago. Sad to see it go. For people who haven't heard of it, it worked like this: I live in SF, and worked in Redwood City. Every day, there was some type of large van that would pick me up a couple blocks from where I lived and dropped me off a couple blocks from where I worked. So it was like a middle ground between public transportation and Uber / Lyft.

<comment><USER3> Isn't what you described an example of how buses work. I know very little about the state of public transport in SF but if it was better won't it solve what Chariot tried to do?

<comment><USER4> San Francisco and Redwood City are roughly 30 miles apart. In the Bay Area, in particular, buses tend to work on a city or county level, which would mean to make this trip, assuming buses were conveniently located, timed, and without too many stops, it would involve using several transit systems, unfortunately. San Francisco and Redwood City not only have dozens of other cities between them, but they're also in 2 different counties (San Francisco and San Mateo county, to be specific). I don't want to say we don't have cooperation between transit agencies, but they are at least distinct entities for these services.

A better solution would be the train. Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) serves many counties and cities, but does not go that far south.

Caltrain serves both San Francisco and Redwood City quite well; however, the nearest station is miles from the Marina district, and depending on destination, would require a transfer on the other end as well.

Of course, I'm sure Chariot involved multiple stops as well, but presumably most riders took it every day, so it was a route that was tailored to the riders of that van, rather than a generic public transit service that might have inconveniently timed transfers, too many stops, or other issues.

EDIT: Actually, it looks like I am incorrect. SamTrans (San Mateo County) actually does go from Redwood City to San Francisco by bus, at least on the 397 and 398 routes, but only midday and it will take almost 2 hours, as it's entirely on surface streets for those ~30 miles (and the terminus on either end is not particularly more likely to be more convenient than the much faster train) [http://www.samtrans.com/schedulesandmaps/maps.html](http://www.samtrans.com/schedulesandmaps/maps.html)

<comment><USER5> This sounds like why Sound Transit exists in the Seattle-Tacoma metro area. It basically creates an adapter pattern-like third agency that manages the long distance routes between the major cities and counties.

<comment><USER6> The problem is that two municipalities (one on each side of the bay) voted down the measures that would have funded the regional transit agency.

Thus, the train lines stop at the borders of these two municipalities, and there are two other train systems that cover the missing area.

(BART, Amtrak, and Caltrain.)

<comment><USER7> Not "municipalities"; counties.

And they opted out because they would have had to pay in fully with no service for years, followed by inferior service forever (they were to be cash cows).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Wasn't it profitable when Ford acquired? Isn't there a pretty reliable userbase? How did they mess it up?

I don't mean to be the conspiracy guy, but it matches the pattern of the streetcar thing: Buy car-obviating service, shut it down.

<comment><USER9> This is purely my own speculation informed by some Clayton Christiansen, but it's possible that someone at Ford sees Ford as a transportation company, not a car company. So the job to be done is moving people and things around. Ford also sponsors the Ford GoBikes that you see all over San Francisco. This could be seen as competing with the Ford the car company. Or it's just part of the portfolio of products from Ford the transportation company.

That kind of thinking could help them mitigate disruptive pressure, especially in markets like SF where driving is pretty awful, but so is transit.

<comment><USER10> Ford just stopped the GoBike sponsorship, so I think they are moving out of alternative means of transportation.

<comment><USER11> Hopefully that doesn't get shut down anytime soon (it's actually owned by Lyft I think). That service is one of the few services I've seen over the past several years I've seen where I've gone "Wow, this is a great thing for the world"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I just wanted to chime in to thank Chariot for the service they provided.

In my experience, few startups literally make your entire day better. I've been using Chariot to commute across SF for about two years and it has given me more time at home with my wife and son, better ability to predict when I'll arrive at work, and a way to use my commute as a quiet space for the reading I could never quite manage on a crowded bus.

So thanks to the whole team. Very sorry that the numbers didn't quite work out at the end of the day, as it often turns out in the startup game.

<comment><USER13> Thanks for the kind words. The ability to improve people's daily lives, as you described, was a big reason a lot of us chose to work there and something we were hoping to see at a larger scale eventually. Today's news came as a shock to most of us.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Ford owned, and Ford are making major cutbacks this week. [https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-buys- chariot-65-million...](https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-buys- chariot-65-million2016-9)

<comment><USER15> Man. I feel bad for the employees. They probably thought getting bought by a big company like Ford meant they would stick around for a while.

<comment><USER16> Getting bought by a big company rarely means that the acquired employees are going to stick around for awhile.

<comment><USER17> Not necessarily true. A lot of acquisitions are 'acquihires' meaning they were bought just for their talent capital.

<comment><USER18> Acquihiring doesn't necessarily involve keeping _everyone_ from the acquired company.

<comment><USER19> Nor does it mean keeping the company itself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Not very surprising. There is a problem with trying to fund urban transit by selling it as a service for those who use it. urban transit is a service which benefits every member of the community it serves , both individuals and corporations, by reducing congestion. In most places with an efficient transit network, fare revenue is not the biggest source of funding.

This is shocking for americans who grow up in the post Reagan era, but some things are easier done by governments.

<comment><USER21> > In most places with an efficient transit network, fare revenue is not the > biggest source of funding

It was eye opening to me to hear about train companies that heavily invest in land development and partnered with the cities to build places to go. In Japan they own department stores and actively participate in business development to grow whole areas, wherever they see opportunities.

<comment><USER19> I was so surprised to see a whole town just basically stamped out of the ground next to a new shinkansen station. Right up until I found out it was all built by the train company.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I used Chariot for about a year commuting from the Marina district of SF to Caltrain. It was basically an adult version of a soccer mom taking the neighborhood kids to practice in a mini van. It's definitely an improvement over taking MUNI...but its not any better than using UberPool. It wasn't 'fancy' by any means. You were just crammed into a sprinter van.

As far as I remember, UberPool either wasn't available or popular at the time Chariot started. Obviously the concept of Chariot wouldn't seem viable at all if you tried to do it in 2019.

</comment><comment><USER22> I used Chariot daily for my commute when I lived in the outer richmond (24th ave). Its existential purpose was to ensure you would only travel with fellow commuters, and not the raving lunatics who rode the muni. It was a kind of bridge above the fray.

</comment><comment><USER23> I recently watched the Anthony Bourdain episode where he goes to Nairobi and rides on a "matatu", which are essentially privately operated party buses for commuters. I thought that was actually a pretty neat idea and could definitely see a market for that.

[https://explorepartsunknown.com/kenya/matatus-rule- nairobis-...](https://explorepartsunknown.com/kenya/matatus-rule-nairobis- roads/)

<comment><USER24> matatu just means taxi or something like that (it actually comes from 'three' in Swahili because the conductors used to yell "give me three" at potential passengers). they are absolutely no fun to ride since the operators pack them to the brim with people and other cargo (animals too) and they wait until full to take off (so sometimes, for infrequently traveled routes you end up waiting hours). this is all to say nothing of being in terrible disrepair. here is the taxi park in Kampala [http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/37/50/05_big.jpg](http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/00/37/50/05_big.jpg). each minivan is a matatu.

source: lived in Uganda for 2 years. rode matatus countless times. almost died many times. shat myself exactly twice.

<comment><USER23> haha I'm not saying an exact replica - I mean the general idea of a themed privately operated bus is interesting. obviously it would be subject to more regulatory scrutiny than over there. you could have a party bus vibe, or a meditation one, or a social one, etc etc.

<comment><USER24> no worries i didn't think you meant exact replica - just giving some context.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'm assuming the ease and likely success of UberPool[1] was the straw that broke the camel's back. Even Waze has a similar offering [2].

Yet I'm not at all surprised they ran out of cash (I'm assuming) and had to shutter. I do feel bad for the folks (drivers and support type folks) who are now out of a job.

[1] [https://www.uber.com/ride/uberpool/](https://www.uber.com/ride/uberpool/)

[2] [https://www.waze.com/carpool](https://www.waze.com/carpool)

</comment><comment><USER26> My gf is using this everyday in London and it cuts her commute time by 30%. Godsend.. but she's alone in the bus 9 out of 10 times. We've dreaded this day but knew it would come. I'm about to tell her now. Crap!

</comment><comment><USER27> Sad to hear this.

People talked a lot of shit about Chariot -- "Silicon Valley tech bros got funding and invented a bus route", blah blah blah -- but urban minibus routes are AWESOME when well-executed.

Seriously we were promised flying cars and we can't even get marshrutki.

</comment><comment><USER28> I tried the service out for a little while, but it ultimately didn't make sense to me. Routes were too rigid, schedule not frequent enough, had to schedule trips in advance, and it cost as much or even more per ride than Uber Pool/Lyft Line.

</comment><comment><USER29> I had a chariot driver cut me off on my bike while i was riding down second street and he was turning left onto second across my lane. He stopped once in my lane and I didn't have enough time to stop so I hit the side of his van, somewhat damaging my bike. He looked right at me and then drove away. I tried to contact chariot about this and got absolutely nowhere. Glad to see them go.

<comment><USER30> I had an encounter with one of their drivers tailgating me for ~1 mile until they finally sped past me and cut me off. I was going above the speed limit. Not sure if there were customers in the car, but I would hope not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'd not heard of Chariot before this. Was it widely used? It looked like Uber meets carpooling, or perhaps some sort of fancy work shuttle — and work shuttle companies open and close all the time, so I don't see what's newsworthy.

They don't state why they're closing down, so I'm a bit puzzled on this one.

<comment><USER32> It's probably on the front page because Chariot was part of YC W15, and later acquired by Ford.

<comment><USER31> Thanks, that fills things in.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Seems like such a great idea on paper. I've seen these parked in various spots in SF. Why do you think they failed? Too asset heavy? I am guessing the cost of vehicles and maintenance, parking spots, regulations etc. was too much? A similar service based on uber model might be more successful, where the company doesn't own the vehicles? Not sure how to provide reliable service that way, though. Perhaps a hybrid?

<comment><USER30> They were acquired by Ford. Doesn't seem like a failure...even if shitting down after 2 years.

<comment><USER33> I meant failure in the larger context, not silicon valley failure :)

<comment><USER34> I don't think that's failure in any context...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> in Africa, we've the 'taxi' system or aptly named Kombi's after the VW model. It picks you from say downtown and drops you by the stop sign or intersection to your house. Pretty much covers almost every neighborhood and street in a decent southern african city. Guess here in the west, it got complicated via apps. & these taxis run pretty frequently i.e maybe every 10 mins depending on capacity. I live in Austin and saw Chariot and bastard westernized appified version of the african taxi system.

</comment><comment><USER36> In Russia we call it "marshrootka", like "routed taxi", missing link between taxi and bus. It is a large and demanded industry, cash-only and poorly regulated. Check out the variety of minivan models and conditions with single Google Images search: [https://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%88%D1%...](https://www.google.com/search?q=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%88%D1%80%D1%83%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0&tbm=isch)

</comment><comment><USER37> Will they be selling off their fleet?

<comment><USER38> That's my first question too. I wonder if there will be some good deals on the vans.

<comment><USER39> Probably off to auction where a lot of rental cars end up too. I'm sure if you keep an eye out on the various auto auction sites you'll see some pop up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> I've seen them around NYC, downloaded the app and waited for them to expand their routes but they never did. I'm not sure why. Seems like a good idea - but I suppose it may have been a challenge to compete with the wide variety of services, including public transportation, that are available in the city.

<comment><USER41> I've seen a lot of startups that have success in SF struggle with NYC because they treat it like the same kind of city. Between the half-dozen mass transit services operating in and around the city, a robust network of express commuter buses (both public _and_ private), dollar vans and gypsy cabs, there is an extremely robust transit network here - even if unconventional at times, and maligned with delays at others. By comparison, despite having roughly comparable density within the city itself, transit in SF just sucks. I'm not surprised they never gained much traction in NYC. Via seems to fill the niche Chariot would be trying to occupy, if we're looking for a direct startupy comparison, and Via additionally operates outside of commute hours. NYC has some kind of "legacy" provider for most kinds of problems, everything from on- demand delivery of food and goods 24hrs to transportation to light laborers and most of the other trendy app platform services.

<comment><USER42> I thought it would be useful when the L train shuts down and had planned to use them then, but now that's not happening I suppose they lost that advantage (also amusingly lyft has spent a boat load advertising the shut down around williamsburg recently).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I have such a strong feeling of deja vu right now - didn't they shut down once before already, and sell off their fleet? Is this their second shutdown?

<comment><USER44> I think you are thinking of Leap[1], one that offered "luxury" buses, barista made coffee on bus etc.

[https://www.wired.com/2015/05/leap-suspension-shows- regulato...](https://www.wired.com/2015/05/leap-suspension-shows-regulators- are-watching-startups/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> I know some people are very critical. I'm a big transit enthusiast but I still see how some work routes are long to walk, but not well served via transit, i.e. NoPa to Brannan St (Airbnb, Pinterest). Friends that were faced with trickier public transit options didn't seem enticed by Chariot. They seem to settle on biking/scootering, long walk, or choosing to take rideshare everyday.

</comment><comment><USER46> This service was a godsend when I lived there, due to how abysmal Muni was. Sorry to hear it didn't work out for them.

<comment><USER47> I've been using it daily here in Austin. Sad to see it go. :(

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Good riddance; my exposure to Chariot was mostly of them blocking the Golden Gate Transit commuter bus pickup zones.

</comment><comment><USER49> For the people that used this and are upset about Chariot shutting down, you should give Waze Carpool a try.

<comment><USER50> Can you share some experience on how you've used Waze Carpool, or how the economics work? I've wondered about it but not tried it out.

<comment><USER49> It's essentially a simplified Uber/Lyft app where I put in my home/work address and a window of time when I make my commute. Afterwards, I see a list of people who are on my route. Then, I can offer someone a ride or request a ride.

Right now Google is subsidizing rides so I think it's $2 a trip. Otherwise it's less than a dollar a mile, whatever the IRS sets the gas write-off as.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> See also [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18877645](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18877645)

</comment><comment><USER52> It's a shame to say goodbye to something that is quite synonymous with San Francisco life. From the comments a lot of people don't "get it" and then think that this is the reason it failed. I'm sure it's a decision based on the complexities of scaling and working with each city and county to make a truly successful business that they ran into too many problems.

Not all businesses need to grow to huge heights to not be considered successful. It's a shame they can't continue to operate in the areas that it works well in (such as here in SF). Scoot have had a hard time growing, but are as successful as ever in SF, so that should be seen as a success in itself. We now have very lofty expectations for businesses either Blitzscaling [1] or dying, but surely it doesn't need to be that binary.

Clearly private solutions to commuting need to exist, people are not satisfied with the public transit in most cities. In a capitalist country, the markets will reward those who succeed. Lyft/Uber are helping somewhat, but you can point to as many articles [2] showing how over congested cities become because of them (even with pooling), which take up much more road space than buses. Let's hope someone else gives this another shot, and we don't shoot them down if they don't become a unicorn.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Blitzscaling-Lightning-Fast- Building-...](https://www.amazon.com/Blitzscaling-Lightning-Fast-Building- Massively-Companies/dp/1524761419) [2] [https://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/technology/ct-uber- ly...](https://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/technology/ct-uber-lyft- congestion-20180225-story.html)

<comment><USER53> We're beginning to feel the crunch of car culture in the US, and not everyone is excited at the prospect of footing the bill to overhaul infrastructure and transportation systems at the public level.

> In a capitalist country, the markets will reward those who succeed.

This may be true, but markets will favor a solution that involves maintaining control of the system in order to generate profit.

If we want our transportation system to rival that of Europe's, it won't be done through market competition for transportation services/technology. Why? Because services like ridesharing don't incentivize the development of solid public-use transportation infrastructure. They represent the next revolution of US car culture, which isn't going to benefit as many people directly once cars become unaffordable for too many Americans, a trend that is already being observed[0].

Once this happens, we're going to rely on cars more than ever because we won't have a viable alternative. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that idea.

[0]: [http://fortune.com/2017/06/28/car-buy- price/](http://fortune.com/2017/06/28/car-buy-price/)

<comment><USER54> Not true. The best train systems in the world are private businesses. The problem is having to compete with the government. The NYC subway used to be two private systems and the government put them out of business and now it's death by politics

A business focused on transit could otherwise profit and maintain for less cost than government fails to do.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> PSA: Via Pass is a great alternative in NYC and works with commuter benefits too

</comment><comment><USER56> great name. Wonder how much they plan to sell it for.

</comment><comment><USER57> Probably because there is absolutely NOTHING on their homepage or about page that describes what their service is in a simple manner. Their tag is "Mass Transit Reinvented"... great!!! How exactly are you doing that in layman's terms.

</comment><comment><USER58> Pls stop trying to re-invent public transit.

<comment><USER59> Please, keep trying to re-invent public transit if you can come up with something better.</comment></comment>


Automated Verification of a Type-Safe Operating System [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/pldi117-yang.pdf <comment><USER2> Keyword here is "automated". Quoting, "In the end, the Verve design, implementation, and verification described in this paper took just 9 person- months, spread between two people". This is considerably less than, say, seL4, which took 20 person-years(!). Well, seL4 is larger than Verve, but still.

</comment><comment><USER3> It's disappointing that little verified OSs like these don't show up little boxes that need them, such as home DSL routers, printers, webcams, and various IoT devices. Those all have one job, and run a fixed program or programs. You want them to do that one job and nothing else. Not act as attack vectors against other systems.

<comment><USER4> The interesting this out of all this is that Microsoft is the one often doing research like this, from F*, Project Everest, to complete kernels, but I've yet to see Windows have any of the new techniques/tools arising from MSR.

I wonder if it is a problem of the research being fairly new, or a lack of software developers inside Microsoft willing to replace their existing code and learn new tools and languages.

<comment><USER5> Because you are not looking into the right spots:

\- Windows 7 kernel reorganization

\- MDIL .NET AOT compiler for Windows 8 and .NET Native for UWP

\- async/await for .NET

\- generics for .NET

\- UWP based on COM (original idea was called ExtVOS before .NET existed)

\- Task Programming Library for .NET

\- Pico-processes on Windows 10

\- Secure kernel on Windows 10

\- Hyper-V based containers

\- Driver verification framework using a theorem proving framework

\- The P language used for writing Windows 8 USB drivers

I guess they just don't adopt more due to management, and how the windev and devtools relate to each other in regards to technology adoption.

<comment><USER4> Half of what you mentioned doesn't come close to some of the research you see MSR publishing. The ones you mentioned are nice, but check out their papers. Some of their papers are so outlandish (for the lack of a better word), that I doubt they can even find a proper conference/publication to submit them to.

The most surprised I've been was when they started using P lang for drivers (which is also used for verification, so your last two points fall under a single point if I'm not wrong). This was the first time I've seen them using a new language/tool rather than make additions like the rest of the points you made. (Also FPGAs in their data centers but that's a different topic)

I'm not deriding their decision to do so, just an observation. Google's X does research which can possibly be an actual product, and I guess I expected Microsoft to do the same. Using such cutting-edge research and include it in their products might earn them cool points from HN, but I'd say the management is perfectly content with the numbers in front of them. OTOH, I doubt any manager is willing to take the blame if their initiative fails in a released product. Microsoft has enough bugs that people complain about as it is (refer to the front page submission about performance)

<comment><USER5> So I feel that I need to provide the background of the items I mentioned

Research on ExtVOS:

\- .NET

\- generics for .NET

\- UWP based on COM (.NET was to be originally based on COM, not CLR which came to be due to Java's influence)

By products of Singularity and Midori projects:

\- MDIL .NET AOT compiler for Windows 8 and .NET Native for UWP

\- async/await for .NET

\- Task Programming Library for .NET

By products of DrawBridge and IronClad projects:

\- Pico-processes on Windows 10

\- Secure kernel on Windows 10

\- Hyper-V based containers

By products of Dafney, Z3 and theorem proving research:

\- Driver verification framework using a theorem proving framework

\- The P language used for writing Windows 8 USB drivers

<comment><USER4> Looks like I was wrong on multiple counts. Thanks for taking the time.

Any links on the driver verification framework? I've only seen people talk about using z3 for hardware verification but didn't know about MS doing it and talking about it publicly (could only find this: [https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b100/b1562ba0e75191d29d4c15...](https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b100/b1562ba0e75191d29d4c15bfe4dc1d1f9c3b.pdf))

<comment><USER5> Yes, here they are:

"SMT in Verification, Modeling, and Testing at Microsoft"

[https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-39611-...](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-642-39611-3_3)

"Efficient evaluation of pointer predicates with Z3 SMT Solver in SLAM2"

[https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp- content/uploads/...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp- content/uploads/2016/02/axioms.submitted.pdf)

"Tools for Verifying Drivers"

[https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows- hardware/drivers/de...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows- hardware/drivers/devtest/tools-for-verifying-drivers)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> (2010)

Whatever happened to that? Several papers in 2010, then nothing. Wikipedia says there was a 2013 release.

Microsoft had a later project, Ironclad (2014) which built on that to build some simple applications.[1] That's an active project at Microsoft.[2]

[1] [https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/osdi14/osdi14...](https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/osdi14/osdi14-paper- hawblitzel.pdf) [2] [https://www.microsoft.com/en- us/research/project/ironclad/#](https://www.microsoft.com/en- us/research/project/ironclad/#)

<comment><USER6> Quite possibly the same that has happened to other OSes at MSR like Singularity and Midori: the team moved on to a new research project which involved writing another new OS.

<comment><USER5> I keep hoping one day such projects will have right level of management support and actually deliver something big into the mainstream.

We got .NET Native, async/await, W10 pico-processes, secure kernel,windows internal refactoring... out of those projects, but they still feel they could have been much more with the right amount of management support.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Reminded me of this bit from Guido van Rossum's PyCon 2012 keynote:

[https://youtu.be/EBRMq2Ioxsc?t=1374](https://youtu.be/EBRMq2Ioxsc?t=1374)

"I know my operating system kernel will never be proven correct."

<comment><USER8> Of course he believes that, he's the creator of a language that doesn't even have a type system...

<comment><USER9> well it kind of does but idiomatic python is not very functional

<comment><USER10> What does that have to do with functional programming?

(I know Python3 has some optional gradual typing. And I know that Python ain't very functional---especially if you go by how Guido wants Python to be written. But I still don't see the connection---apart from that functional programming and academic theory on typing go hand-in-hand.)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Deploying at GitHub  - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/blog/1241-deploying-at-github

<comment><USER2> How often does code go through security audits? Is every feature audited prior to deploying to live? GitHub is making money by selling private repositories which will often contain very sensitive code, so ensuring nobody can gain unauthorised access to them is presumably one of the top concerns.

I'm interested in seeing how tight security requirements fit in with this almost continuous deployment strategy.

<comment><USER3> We do continuous deployment at Etsy[1] as well. Here is a talk from our head of application security (probably not his official title, fyi) about some of the stuff we do: [http://www.slideshare.net/zanelackey/effective-approaches- to...](http://www.slideshare.net/zanelackey/effective-approaches-to-web- application-security).

[1]: <http://www.etsy.com>, the world's marketplace for handmade and vintage goods.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting, I saw something like this by looking at the <https://github.com/mozilla/pdf.js/> project. Take a look at the closed pull requests. They have some bots listening for commands in comments and do stuff like unit testing and previewing. The result gets posted as comment from the responsible bot. Another one is checking master branch for changes and automatically builds and pushes at gh-pages. Seems to work very well, but don't know how they build/did it.

<comment><USER5> Hi Artur from PDF.js here. We built Bot.io to handle the workflow you mentioned:

<http://github.com/arturadib/botio>

It's written in Node and is trivial to install/use in any Github project.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> If you're looking for a less complex model of this, you should try our Continuous Integration and deployment service: <https://circleci.com>. Over time, we'll be providing the sort of complexity that GitHub provides here, now we do about 70% of it.

<comment><USER7> Looks interesting. Is it free? It seems like it probably is but I'm not sure. Also when it leaves beta how much will it cost? I don't want to end up depending on something I can't afford.

<comment><USER6> 14 day free trial, then $19 for 1 project, $49 for 10 projects, and $149 to run tests twice as fast.

Feedback on anything, including pricing, very welcome.

<comment><USER8> per... build? day? week? month? year? lifetime?

<comment><USER6> Month! Sorry, I thought that would be assumed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I might be wrong but for me this is almost a [Hack] -> [Prod] methodology...

Roll back in 30 seconds, cool but how do you manage data / schema migrations ? You have a snapshot also to rollback any data corruption the last hacking session could have introduced ?

<comment><USER10> Data migrations are done carefully with the Large Hadron Migrator Ruby gem: <https://github.com/soundcloud/large-hadron-migrator>. Facebook has a similar tool: <https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=430801045932>

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> If GitHub uses GitHub to deploy GitHub, what happens when GitHub goes down?

<comment><USER12> This is a guess, but I'm assuming they use the same software running in an independent environment just for them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Encouraging to know this model scales to 100 employees at least.

Purely out of intellectual interest, I wonder if a company the size of Google or Facebook could also ship in this way, or if the whole release manager/team is essential.

<comment><USER14> Sarbanes-Oxley puts a big damper on production deployments at big companies. I don't fully understand it so I won't try to explain it.

(I will complain though: the law says developers shouldn't have control over production systems. If that's a requirement, who's going to write the software?)

<comment><USER15> Wait, what? Could someone elaborate on S-O restricting developer control over production systems?

<comment> cam- Everyone just 'knows' what is in Sarbanes Oxley but when you ask them to point it out to you in the legislation they cannot find what they were so certain about 2 minutes prior. We have compliance people and auditors are always coming in, but when someone claims something is required for Sox compliance, challenge them on it as 99% of the time it is a convention because someone told them, or they did it like that somewhere else once, rather then what is required by law. At the least it will make them justify the compliance/overhead they are causing you to do as an engineer.

Here is the legislation if you want to read through it or use it to challenge someone's assumptions about the Sarbanes-Oxley; <http://www.sec.gov/about/laws/soa2002.pdf>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I know this is Github, but... Rather than use the Github API, wouldn't it be more efficient to interact with Git directly? Libgit2 maybe?

<comment><USER10> Dogfooding aside, the vast majority of the time is spent running tests and actually deploying the code. The time to hit the API to merge the commit is negligible in comparison.

Also, Janky and Heaven are both tiny apps that don't necessarily have access to the file servers.

<comment><USER8> But they are hitting the API to get the OID of the master ref as well?

Not having access to the file system is a fair excuse...

<comment><USER10> The merge API takes branches: <http://developer.github.com/v3/repos/merging/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> _WOW_. 175 deploys in one day?

<comment><USER17> I'd love to hear the backstory behind this. Company hackday, or a day spent shipping a major set of new features?

<comment><USER10> We don't do "company hack days". If you feel like hacking on something, hack on it.

We do have days where multiple people will be waiting in line waiting for their chance to deploy their tweak.

That particular day consisted of staff deploys on multiple in-progress branches, some performance tuning, bug fixes, etc. Nothing crazy.

I'm also quite sure the number counts deploys across all of our applications. For instance, deploying a change to github-services counts as two, since I have to deploy changes to GitHub.com also.

<comment><USER17> Thanks for this, enjoy hearing about Github as a company.

> I'm also quite sure the number counts deploys across all of our > applications. For instance, deploying a change to github-services counts as > two, since I have to deploy changes to GitHub.com also. That might explain a > lot. Still a lot of deploys, but a more sane count :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> How do you deal with the github enterprise version of your software? Does it have a separate QA cycle? How often do you ship new releases of that?

I am hoping that Github could shed more light on the how they ship an enterprise version along with the SAASy web version that we all know and love.

<comment><USER19> Yes, the testing/deployment cycle for Enterprise is totally different. We usually release a major version with new features every two/three months, and 2 or 3 minor versions with bug fixes in between.

We always keep the version of github synchronized with master for development/testing, although we only release master directly in major releases. For minor releases we avoid to include major features from github to keep it as much stable as possible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Interesting ... what's your QA process? Do you have a staging environment where you try stuff out (looking for bugs) before pushing to production?

<comment><USER21> We have a staging environment, but its really only used for really big changes that might need to be experimented with before being deployed. We can also deploy a branch to a single front end to observe how it behaves with a subset of the traffic, and roll it back quickly if needed. Also, most large user- facing features are released as "staff-only" first, so we as GitHub users are able to play around with it for a few days or weeks before enabling it for everyone.

<comment><USER22> How do you guys release features as "staff-only"? Do you have some internal tool that manages that?

<comment><USER23> No. There's simple conventions for adding feature flags (user.some_feature_enabled?). Features are enabled and disabled by changing the code and deploying. This works because deploying new code is fast.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Listen Notes – A podcast search engine that actually works - <AUTHOR> https://www.listennotes.com/?s=hn <comment><AUTHOR> Hello HN,

I'm Wenbin, a software engineer in San Francisco & the maker of Listen Notes.

Listen Notes is a very simple "I can build this in a weekend"-ish project. It crawls podcasts RSS from iTunes, indexes podcasts meta data in ElasticSearch, and provides a simple web UI. No AI. No speech-to-text. No audio search.

Despite of the simplicity of this project and the little development effort, I find that this project is actually good enough for my personal use — some of my friends feel the same way as well. Example: [https://www.listennotes.com/search?q=Carmelo%20Anthony&sort_...](https://www.listennotes.com/search?q=Carmelo%20Anthony&sort_by_date=1)

As an engineer & 1st generation immigrant, I'm very practical. I always prefer "spending 10% time solving 90% problem"-type solution. We are not building a pyramid (or making an iPhone). Software projects (especially online services) can always evolve. There's no need to get everything right all at once.

I've been working on some side projects on and off for several years. Listen Notes was one of my side projects in the past several months. However, I had never worked on these projects full-time (e.g., several work days in a row). Things changed recently. I just left the company I cofounded on Sep 15, so I got a chance to work on my side projects full-time. In the past few days, I rewrote the web UI, refactored a big chunk of backend code, and laid the foundation of future fast iteration of this product. I'm curious to see how big Listen Notes will become before I run out of my personal savings in a few months :)

I'd love to get some feedback & I'm happy to answer questions!

(Actually, I wrote some FAQs: [https://www.listennotes.com/about](https://www.listennotes.com/about) )

</comment><comment><USER2> Wow, thanks for sharing. Agree with your friends, it's pretty good!

Managed to find an episode that Castro and Overcast search never seemed to find. Bookmarked.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! Glad to know that this simple project is useful to people :)</comment></comment>


The 2nd-class Facebook workers who do the hardest job are waging a quiet battle - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/05/08/inside-facebook-second-class-workers-who-do-hardest-job-are-waging-quiet-battle/ <comment><USER2> I've been contracting for over a decade. I don't expect any sort of benefits (unless specified in the contract that I signed) and I'm not sure why the people in this article feel they are entitled to them.

If you want benefits and be treated like an employee, go through the hiring process at Facebook to become an employee.</comment>


Why it is Awesome to be a Girl in Tech (2012) - <AUTHOR> http://www.nerdess.net/blog/nerdy/why-it-awesome-be-girl-tech/ <comment><USER2> Date: 2012</comment>


Emms 4.0 - <AUTHOR> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu/2014-07/msg00010.html

<comment><USER2> "EMMS is the Emacs Multimedia System. It tries to be a clean and small application to play multimedia files from Emacs using external players. Many of it's ideas are derived from MpthreePlayer , but it tries to be more general and cleaner.

The fact that EMMS is based on external players makes it powerful, because it supports all formats that those players support, with no effort from your side."

[https://www.gnu.org/software/emms/](https://www.gnu.org/software/emms/)

<comment><USER3> Emacs: it was MS-Word before MS-Word was MS-Word.

EDIT: not that there's anything wrong with that!

<comment><USER4> Actually your sentence is far from the truth. RMS wanted Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing since 25 years ago[1].

1- [https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- devel/2013-11/msg00...](https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs- devel/2013-11/msg00515.html)

<comment><USER3> I don't think I've ever seen the philosophy of emacs stated so concisely.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've used emms for years to transcribe interviews and debates. It's wonderful. Instead of switching to some other app to pause or rewind, I can type up what I'm listening to and navigate the audio all within emacs.

<comment><USER6> Can I suggest a transcribers peddle?

<comment><USER5> Doesn't really work with restless leg syndrome...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Why did they deprecate Last.fm support? Also, does anyone know a good Emms/mpd setup?

<comment><USER8> The same reason they do everything else: on principle (alone).

<comment><USER9> [http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emms- help/2014-03/msg00002...](http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emms- help/2014-03/msg00002.html)

Hey look! the real reason.

"Last.fm killing off its subscription service" [http://venturebeat.com/2014/03/26/last-fm-is-killing-off- its...](http://venturebeat.com/2014/03/26/last-fm-is-killing-off-its- subscription-radio-service-on-april-28/)</comment></comment></comment>


Compiling GCC 5 on OS X - <AUTHOR> https://solarianprogrammer.com/2015/05/01/compiling-gcc-5-mac-os-x/

<comment><USER2> Just as a PSA: GCC 5.1.0 is available in Homebrew as the gcc5 package.

<comment><USER3> Do you (or anyone) know why the gcc package isn't GCC 5.1 yet?I'm not sure why Homebrew hasn't updated the gcc package itself, and instead requires you to use the versions/gcc5 one.

<comment><USER4> Certain things are still being tested/rebuilt to work with the latest GCC.

[https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/pull/36926](https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/pull/36926)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you're going to put gmp etc in the same spot as gcc just let gcc download and configure the prereqs:

        tar xf gcc...
        cd gcc...
        contrib/download_prerequisites
        ./configure ...
        make
        make install

</comment><comment><USER6> $ brew install gcc5

Done.

</comment><comment><USER7> Would have been interesting to see if it can compile itself.

<comment><USER8> It does, during the build process. Twice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Compiling GCC 5 on Gentoo Linux:

        echo "sys-devel/gcc:5.1 **" >> /etc/portage/package.keywords
        emerge -n gcc:4.9
        emerge -1 gcc

</comment><comment><USER9> From the article: >Clang, the default compiler for OS X, supports only C, C++ and >Objective-C. If you are interested in a modern Fortran >compiler,...

      Mmm, no we are not interested

<comment><USER10> Like it or not, there still exist many important and frequently used programs which are only written in fortran. People absolutely should be interested in maintaining a fortran compiler.

<comment><USER11> Yeah, there's little reason to write new code in Fortran, but there's definitely a need for current binaries of all those existing mature and well- designed Fortran libraries.

<comment><USER12> I work with reservoir modelling, and it continues to amaze me that everyone coming from non-CS fields seem to have programmed solely in Fortran. Besides, I believe the Intel Fortran compiler is extremely fast. I wouldn't say there's _no_ reason to write new programs in Fortran.

<comment><USER13> I find it's much easier to write code that uses multidimensional arrays in Fortan than almost any other language.

Sure, i/o isn't as nice and don't try to do anything fancy with strings, but for numbers it's hard to beat.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


How to Make a Million Dollars, by Marshall Brain - <AUTHOR> http://marshallbrain.com/million.htm <comment><USER2> "What do you do if you want to short-circuit the process and make a million bucks in a couple of years? There is only one way in America to accomplish that reliably.."

Yeah, everyone who starts a business makes a million bucks in a couple years.

If your definition of reliable equates to the odds of a business making a million bucks in a couple years, please remind me never to let you babysit my child.

<comment><USER3> I take it you didn't click on the the next slide...

"In America, starting a successful business is the surest, most controllable path available to you for making a million dollars in less than 42 years."

Maybe you get your million dollars in two years, but only after thirty years of practice?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Good talk overall, though the format is a kind of annoying on the web. The one comment I would make is regarding his book suggestions: "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is not a total waste of time, but very close, unless you're completely oblivious to the idea of wealth.

Here's the only useful piece of info from it: buy cash-producing assets like real estate or businesses, not flashy cars or glitzy vacations.

A better book is "How to Get Rich" by Felix Dennis.

<comment><USER5> I totally agree on your points about "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". Very dubious advice overall. I was fanatical about those books, and indeed, had many of them. It took me a lot of brainwashing to shake many of his notions on wealth.

I will investigate Felix's book. Thank you very much for sharing.

<comment><USER6> Felix's Book --> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=283983>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I bet I could make a million dollars by selling an ebook about how to make and sell ebooks..

<comment><USER8> If you set the price at one million dollars, you only have to sell one of them. And then there's the added benefit of having something to sell with a million dollar price tag: some people think it's actually worth a million dollars!

<comment><USER9> But then the only ones who can afford it are specifically those who don't need it...

<comment><USER10> To make it more logical, title it "How to lose a million dollars with one click".

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've always loved this site. Thanks for posting!

PS: Read also "Manna".

<comment><USER11> Manna is a mildly entertaining story, and a completely unworkable idea. Post- scarcity economies are nice to think about, but they don't solve all of humanity's problems. A lot of them, yes, but not all. Manna would have been better if it acknowledged this.

<comment><USER12> My favorite utopian moment from the Manna story:

"Live Your Life means that you are able get the most out of your life, as opposed to the least. Instead of dying in Terrafoam, or dying in some job that you hate, you live your life in the Australia Project in freedom and prosperity. Live Your Life means that you are in control -- again, the emphasis on freedom of choice. You decide what you want to do, and then you are able to do it. You reach your full potential. Live Your Life is the idea of thinking about your life as a whole, as something that you get to design and control. Does that make sense?"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Who needs to read that. How to make a million dollars - be passionate about hacking and never give up. That's the way to make a million dollars.

</comment><comment><USER14> Interesting talk.

But he makes it sound so easy. ;)</comment>


Being recruited in the USA - <AUTHOR> http://pau.calepin.co/being-recruited-in-the-usa.html There is a lack of engineers everywhere, but finding talent is especially hard on the Bay Area.<p>I'm from Spain but I've been the last 3 months in San Francisco attending to some conferences and visiting some friends. At that time I was trying to start something but I changed my mind and I started looking for a job instead... <comment><USER2> I think the poster might be a little naive about the H1-B process and how unattractive it is for small companies. Make no bones about it. Its a major hassle, and if you leave it to the company it will (usually) never happen.

So advice for people in the same boat in the future, If it is something you really want to do, then you need to know _exactly_ how the process works at every step of the way and also have a really good Lawyer that the company can talk to if they have questions. They can help you if tricky things come up (and they will if the company applying for you is small enough).

I advise you not to go with a lawyer from a big firm, those guys just want to see dollars ... and if your case is small and tricky they will not be interested. trust me. Try to find an individual or small firm that is responsive and knows the ins and outs of the process far better than you ... if possible ask them to tell you the trickiest situation they've helped a client with before ... that should give you some idea of how good they are. Usually they can bill you for their time spent talking the company, or their lawyer down from the ledge (this will happen), or if they handle the process then you or the company can pay their fees.

Lay out the process when the company asks about it (because they will usually not know), let them know that its not complex, just a pain in the ass and that you will handle most of the legwork (you're prepared to do this right?) ... some people chip in to help with the fees if they're so inclined ... this is frowned upon and I think the law has been changed to make it illegal, use that information as you want.

Above all, be persistent, upbeat and constantly in touch, do not think that a company is going to jump through hoops to pay $5000 to get you. And remember that some of the requests that are made of the company (like tax returns etc) might cause them to stall, so be prepared for that.

It will come down to how bad you want it. good luck

</comment><comment><USER3> Sadly, the drama doesn't even end after getting your visa. Over six months ago I applied for an H1B transfer to a new job- they replied requesting a confirmation letter from every employer I've had since college saying that I am, indeed, a developer, and not some sort of fraud. My transfer is still pending, making every return journey back into the US a stressful experience.

This, after I've already been working in the US for two years- you would have thought they'd have asked for the letters when I applied the first time.

My H1B three year limit is in November of this year. I can apply to extend for another three years, but I can't wait to see what nonsense they throw my way when I try.

<comment><USER4> They probably make it a pain because they don't want you to spend the next decade making money here and sending it back to the mother country.

<comment><USER5> Since most of these laws are written by politicians and not economists it's more likely that they want to appear tough on immigration to avoid "dey took our jerbs!" style anger from the electorate. It's sort of like how clubs force people to wait in line outside even when there is room. If they let everyone in, it might start to feel crowded and less fun.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Wow, having someone implement a square root algorithm on the spot, that's quite a question to ask. I agree that is a terrible question because not many top developers would be able to answer it on the spot unless they had recently happened to have implemented it. It's not like it's an obvious algorithm. I could mention the existence of Carmack's root algorithm, which I don't have memorized but I do know he got from someone else, and flop around a bit.

It's weird there are so many companies claiming to not be able to find people but you hear about their hiring process and it's no wonder.

<comment><USER7> Implementing a square root algorithm is actually very simple:

        def sqrt(x):
          a = 1.0
          for _ in range(100): a = (a + x/a)/2
          return a

This is just Newton's method to find a solution of the equation a^2 - x = 0. For certain classes of jobs knowing Newton's method is definitely required, as it is the simplest and most widely used numerical method. And even if you don't know Newton's method I expect any programmer worth his salt to be able to come up with a bisection algorithm.

<comment><USER8> Geez. It's time for me to retire.

I've written 100,000s lines of code and released 9 different commercial products over the last 15 years, and Newton's method is far from being in my working memory.

Now, if you ask about best practices in shipping software...

<comment><USER9> Easier to remember is the bisection method: essentially, a binary search for where the graph crosses the x-axis. It's what I would have pulled out if I got asked the square root problem in an interview:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisection_method>

<comment><USER10> Interestingly enough, I recently wrote a post explaining how to take a binary search and derive Newton's method from it: <http://stevekrenzel.com/articles/newtons-law>

It's a fairly straight-forward transformation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'd have to agree with your point:

"Most of them are doable but I think they are probably missing amazing developers that may not know how to solve those problems, but they are capable of solving real-life problems (fix this bug, port this library, refactor this code...)."

I do believe some startups are missing out on some amazingly talented developers by making this your rubric. Some people just don't some solve puzzles well, in the same way some people don't perform stellar on tests, but does that mean they are not capable of writing great code. Not at all. I've met some stellar coders who do not solve timed puzzle or timed tests well.

Will someone please explain to me exactly why solving a puzzle is a indicator of potential workplace success. Do you want to hire puzzle solvers or actual developers? Should I spend my time improving my puzzle solving skills or churning out code that solves real-life problems?

<comment><USER12> I agree, its utter nonsense for the most part, it seems some companies just want you to jump through a bunch of hoops and to make you feel stupid. I think having you work on a small contracted project or something related to the business domain would be a lot more useful.

<comment><USER13> That would probably be more useful, but it doesn't scale. An interview like that takes up a ton of resources and can leave a bad impression on a candidate.

Not only are you paying for devs to help and evaluate the candidate, you are doing this over a much longer period than a traditional interview, _and_ you have to pay the candidate for the work they did, even if you're going to throw it out.

Nobody wants to force candidates to jump through hoops or make them feel stupid. That's a recipe for bad word-of-mouth and never hiring good devs. When I conduct interviews, I always try to make people feel like they did an OK job. I don't want them to get off the phone thinking they did really poorly. I try hard to seem impartial, but that's often quite difficult to do.

The root problem is that nobody knows what the hell they're doing in interviews. We don't know the best way to evaluate candidates, so we try various things that are ineffective or wasteful. Eventually we'll figure it out.

<comment><USER12> if its for web dev, make them do something that has a web UI, give specific contraints and then write an automated integration test for it (such as using selenium), run this on the incoming submissions, only review the ones that pass, this is just a quick idea... there are ways to automate this....

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This thread depresses me; I just read every comment.

As an American, the visa stuff makes me sad, because it tells me that the system is broken. But what really gets to me, as a newbie developer, is the interview and hiring commentary. It makes me feel like there's just no hope for somebody like me-- I don't have a CS degree and come from the world of humanities and liberal arts. The furthest I went with math in Uni was Discrete. I don't take tests well, and I'm no good with heavy duty algorithmic methodology (though I do know some of them). I don't have any formulae memorized. I tend to think of programming like I do writing: I have great grammar, punctuation, and spelling.

I'm afraid I would fail miserably at these gauntlet-style tests applied by big SV companies. I love technology and I love building things and what I'm doing now, but the path of achievement and improvement professionally from novice to indispensible pro often seems cloudy to me. I think our culture needs to spend more time and money on apprenticeship and helping less experienced developers reach that next rung on the ladder. I'm happy that there seems to be some movement now in that direction, with Khan Academy, Codecademy, Code Year, &c.

<comment><USER15> Don't let it get to you. The best developers I've worked with didn't come from CS background at all.

Employers worth working for will know to look at what you've built and your passion creating/learning rather than whether you can quote a square root function from memory.

We're fortunate: if you wanted to get a job as a lawyer you couldn't just go and win some cases to prove your ability. But developers can always build something cool to show what they can do. It won't get you to Google or IBM, but it'll get you to any startup worth its salt.

<comment><USER14> Thanks. Does Google still demand CS degrees? I ask because I can think of several people doing dev there now that don't.

<comment><USER16> Not if you're recruited, no. I've had on-sites at Google for coding positions, and my degree is in visual arts! I suspect if you're just sending in an application to the site they may use degree subject just to filter out the insane number of applications they get.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Legally, you cannot seek employment while you're in US (B1 Visa). Hell, you're not even supposed to work and be paid while in the US. You can be reimbursed for travel, accommodation, food, etc. You can work if you're work is in agreement while you were in your country (outside US) but came to US to talk to your client, blah blah.

Yes, April 1 is the day H1 Applications are officially opened for filing for worker coming in from October 1. However, with the recent lack of demands, blame the US economy and a much more strict Immigration rules, you're likely to be able to apply till end of year or even more. Last year's quota was available till late November if I can remember correctly (2010's quota was available till Feb of 2011).

But, do not wait for April 1, get your lawyer (or the company's lawyer) to start the paperworks and be ready before April 1. That way, you're likely to know the result earlier.

Of course, founders (executive roles) can look at L1 for a better alternative Visa than the H1.

Note: Your lawyer will also advised you to leave US soil before applying for your H1 else you're complicating yourself. Translation, you're soliciting yourself (being interviewed, meeting prospective employer) and that is not allowed.

<comment><USER18> Given that the H1B must be sponsored by an employer, how are you supposed to find one if you shouldn't "solicit", go to interviews, meet people ?

Is this a catch-22 ? Nobody ever got legally an H1B ?

<comment><USER19> One way would be to that the companies interview you in your countries. This usually happens with on-campus recruitment.

Other way is that you are on some other visa (other than B-1), that does allows you to solicit, give interviews, etc. For example at the end of F-1 study visa, you can go around and shop for some time to get a job, and the company will then sponsor for your H1B.

<comment><USER20> Actually, at the end of an F1 visa, provided that you got a degree, you can work under OPT for 12 months, with a possible 17 months extension if you're in STEM.

At the end of those (12+17) months you can seek H1B.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> It's worth noting that the H1B is not the only type of visa that exists for hiring developers. Australians are able to use the E3, which is like a H1B but only available to Australians. Consequently it's easier to get, as long as you have a degree/work experience.

<comment><USER22> I came here to post this because most people don't know about it.

It has some key differences to the H1B however:

\- It is a 2 year visa (H1B is 3 year) and renewable _indefinitely_ (typically H1Bs allow one renewal);

\- The E3 by default is a multiple-entry visa;

\- Renewing the visa inside the US is a huge pain. It takes months from USCIS and it's more expensive than obtaining a new visa (which can only be done outside the US);

\- You don't renew your visa, you renew your _status_. This means if you leave the US after the visa expires but your status has been renewed you have to get a new visa anyway;

\- The H1B visa requires a labor certification for the position and "proof" that you were unable to find a domestically qualified candidate. The E3 visa only requires the labor certification so has a much lower barrier to entry.

<comment><USER23> Technically, you can't renew an existing E3 visa. You must re-apply, and as I learned a few months ago going through the process, the subsequent visas will be E3R. Also, and E3D is apparently easy to obtain. It allows "dependents" (spouse, children) to accompany you to the US, even permitting them a small amount of part time work.

In addition, an E3 does not allow "dual intent". i.e. you may not seek permanent status in the US while holding an E3 visa. This means no Green Card applications, including the Green Card Lottery.

One other thing that may not be unique to the E3, but is worth understanding is that your tenuous presence in the US is bound to the employment quite tightly. If you quit your job, or are let go (startup winds up, etc), you must exit the US within 10 days. That's 10 days to pack up your things and leave the country.

<comment><USER21> Interesting, I've read conflicting reports about dual intent - do you have any sources? I'd provide mine but it would require a lengthy google session to retrace my steps :)

<comment><USER24> <http://canberra.usembassy.gov/e3visa.html> [http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/moving/e3-visa- austral...](http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/moving/e3-visa-australia/)

There is a way around it on E3 but also a high chance the consular officer will decline you. Best to get a green card on a H1B. Use E3 as a way in (for Aussies), then transfer to H1B and apply for Green Card IF you believe its worth it. Remember the US government can tax you up to 10 years after you have given your green card back should you want to go home..

<comment><USER25> obviously off-topic, but could you please clarify (and may be post some links?). Does this means, that if I now cancel my greencard and leave usa back to my home country, up to 2022 usa irs will have some rights on my income?

<comment><USER24> Correct!

[http://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax- advice/citizenship-s...](http://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax- advice/citizenship-surrender.html)

If you move back to say Australia there are still negative tax consequences in so far as some Australian tax strategies that are quite beneficial will have those benefits negated when the US tax system is brought into account.

This will vary from individual to individual so seek a professional tax agents advise for your situation.

<comment><USER26> Is that more of a "who cares, I'm in Australia now", or will the Aust. Tax Office support the US IRA by disallowing deductions?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This often baffles me, as a foreigner in America (currently in a position where I occasionally hire people).

The American employee is probably the least protected in the West. Firing is about as simple & cheap as it gets outside of an Indonesian sweatshop. Many start as contractors anyway. The upside should have been that companies would be quicker to hire. Instead sprung a weird culture of "the four hour interview" (sometimes several of these).

There's actually not that much you can find out about someone before hiring them: "Show me a piece of code you've written" - hopefully it's on GitHub or similar, ideally forked by some other people too - "Tell me about some design decisions you made when building this". You should also try to gauge personality, motivation, curiosity and chemistry.

That's about all you'll know, regardless of how convoluted your process. But fortunately you're not in France, so if it doesn't work out you can always go your separate ways.

When companies take too long to hire it usually indicates fear of making decisions. Interviewers are afraid to say someone's a good/bad fit. The CTO is afraid to look bad for hiring the wrong person. It's probably not going to be a fun place to work if you want to create new things.

</comment><comment><USER27> Hey I've got a green card and I'm having major problems, not really sure why. Just today I was rejected from a job where I absolutely aced the interview process. No feedback as to why but I'm thinking there is something lost in translation. I'm from the UK, been coding C++ for over 10 years and love it, even coding in my spare time. When I meet people at interviews I get good feedback, answer 99% of the questions no problems and generally do well. Yet still, for some reason and despite the massive demand for software engineers, I'm just not getting anything. Never had this problem in the UK... but just wanted to let you know that it seems you're not alone.

<comment><USER28> we are hiring system level people at 10gen to work on mongodb so if you are interested ping me christkv at 10gen

<comment><USER27> Will do, thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> I want to know what the stigma is over remoting. I know 37signals has quite a few remote engineers and they are doing quite well. There are loads of good engineers literally all over the country. But for some reason the Bay area would rather spend twice as much looking for local engineers than just hiring ones that are on the other side of the country. What gives?

<comment><USER30> Having remote workers requires a very different operation style and a lot of trust in yourself as a manager, trust in your workers, and trust in the technology you're leveraging to communicate. Can you as the manager lead from afar -- its harder than you might think. You can trust workers to actually work, you can just let them go for not doing so. But it's harder to trust your remote workers to engage with the company and their peers digitally. It's not easy. Also, the technology may be a pain to use, and kill any good intentions or habits you may have started.

The similar problem with remote is that the manager and their team must consciously prevent the "silence" the author alluded too. Likely, the silence was not intentional. People get distracted in "realspace" and easily can neglect remote worker. In order to have a remote team be viable, you have to overcome this barrier. That's where the trust/competence of all parties comes into play.

<comment><USER31> There are other problems with remote workers. You can't have a face-to-face conversation. A remote worker can't go into a coworkers office and help track down a tricky bug. These issues can be alleviated to some extent by email, phones, and video-conferencing, but those things require a fair amount of work to set up and still aren't the same as having the person in the office.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Hey, 20y old programmer here. I feel like I could never pass an interview with these brain teasers.

Also, I've never really had an interview. And I've had some pretty good jobs, but I never got them for solving math problems.

Seems to me it requires a person that falls in one of these categories:

\- having a job that includes solving math problems \- I'm web/mobile \- motivated enough to prepare for it (I could believe that) \- I would probably do this if I wanted the job \- people who are so freakishly smart they can solve it right away \- This is my idea of Google engineers, but it's not me \- people who have fun solving math problems \- I love to see things working, so not me

What do you think is the best strategy to increase my chances if I ever get to do an interview like that?

<comment><USER29> I'm in the same boat as you (20,web/mobile). I've done my fair share of interview and here's what I've found:

Anything that's worth doing involves a heavy amount of math. Most of my day is spend doing UI and I tend to deal with a heavy amount of math each day. So I don't know what you mean by "I'm web/mobile" but unless you are purely a designer*, your doing math.

The math that they ask at interviews usually doesn't involve anything that isn't reasonably expected to be in an algorithms book. To that extent they usually avoid some of the more specialized algorithms. eg, I've had BSTs but not Red-black trees but it's not unusual to have a question on RBTs depending on the company.

Other than knowing your algos really well that's about it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> I'm going through the process myself, and getting to work in the US is extremely complicated. Whenever I talk with local people (even immigrants) how hard it is to get a visa in the US nobody believes me, but sadly it's the truth. Remote workers is not the solution though, you should be able to get a visa easily for a highly specialized job.

</comment><comment><USER34> If you want an H1-B, you need to apply to start work on October 1. We didn't even put in an application for our H1-B candidate until September and he received his H1-B in early October. Clearly just another demonstration of the USAs primitive immigration policy!

You also have to be very careful coming to San Francisco to look for a job and then applying for an H1-B ...theoretically that is against 'the rules' so make sure both you and your future employer are comfortable with the situation.

I'd say try again next summer, I'd bet you find success. The $5K for an H1-B is nothing for a great dev!

</comment><comment><USER35> I've had similar things happen to me. The best approach is to be on top of how the visa works, the quotas, the timings and the best visa agencies a potential employer should use to get you in. Often companies assume it's going to be easy and pull out after making commitments based on that assumption (and also go silent, like in my case)

That said, the author seems to be quite employable, I hope someone spots him for some remote work or lets him join a branch somewhere in the EU and transfer him across on an L1 visa.

<comment><AUTHOR> Right now I'm currently working at teambox.com, I just wanted to share my experience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Agree. I am currently hiring in Shanghai and even though the salary my company offers is way above market average (it even surpasses the average in Singapore), but I am still having a _very_ hard time to find experienced candidates with more than 5 years of software engineering experience. No, my coding questions are straight forward and no tricks embedded. I do ask some open-ended engineering questions, just to see if a candidate can narrow down the solution space by posing assumptions.

<comment><USER37> please, details

<comment><USER36> Details on..?

<comment><USER38> I imagine he wants company name/links to job postings.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> It's been my experience that even without the visa issue, US companies tend to shy away from hiring remote talent. I am a US citizen with a solid mobile development background, and have gotten great responses from companies that have reviewed my resume, until they realize that I currently live outside the US. It seems that while the visa process may be an issue, getting over the "hurdle" of hiring remote workers still seems to be a major issue also.

</comment><comment><USER40> Not an uncommon situation in my experience. Hiring in the valley has never been less skillful or less transparent. Even if you are not a developer and you do have many successful projects you still have to answer sometimes rediculous questions from people who really don't know any better.

Even professional recruiters are at a loss as to how to deal with this.

</comment><comment><USER41> Wow, silence. So strange. Also strange about the visa. H1-B's were 'gone' this year (all were claimed fairly early), but they should have known that if they had looked into it at all. Unless you've had one before, the earliest you could start in the US is next November, but you have to be hired by April so they can apply on your behalf.

<comment><AUTHOR> They got other H1-B's easily before, but apparently this year they run out so fast!

<comment><USER3> It's actually more common for them to disappear quickly. I was extremely lucky the year I got mine- there were still some available around April. As I understand it, that's a rarity. Hooray for economic downturns?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Thanks for sharing the experience. I went through the H1B visa process a number of years ago. Although it's pretty tough being treated like you did, I think you and possibly the offering company went into the arrangement without enough information. I remember that the H1B pool is relatively small (in the 10's of thousands) per year. And that well connected immigration lawyers and sponsoring companies usually exhaust that pool within the first day they are released. After that, it's virtually impossible to get a H1B. And when you if you're lucky enough to be able to wrangle a H1B, it's a pretty convoluted and costly (for the sponsoring company) application process. Good luck with the next round of H1Bs, the sponsoring company (and lawyers) need to get in quickly! You sound like a well qualified dev, and it's a shame that the US misses out on good talent because of an inadequate immigration system...

<comment><USER43> A close friend (in the UK) was approached by a company (In the US) this June with the offer of a job. The H1B process wasn't started until August and he picked up his successful application in mid October. The quota (55,000 or so) goes quickly, but varies by the year and can take several months to be filled completely

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I went through a similar process twice. In my case it went rather smooth, but I am a scientist not a programmer. I made this post to summarize my experience: <http://bit.ly/zMEHfr>

<comment><USER19> I thought NIV was usually used with application for EB2 Green card. Is there a NIV category in H1B too?

<comment><USER44> I went back to my Visa application. You are right. I´ll edit my post. There are certain cases where there is no cap. The one that applies to me is "A nonprofit research organization or governmental research organization." 8 CFR 214.2 (h) (19) (iii) (C)

My mind played tricks (back when I was researcher there was that option to increase your chances). However I do remember that presenting a legal case that my skills were worth was an important factor to get the H1B.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm curious about the author's opinion of the puzzles he had to answer while interviewing. I know most of us in the US are used to this style of interview, so it would be interesting to hear more about Pau's experience.

I've been reading up about hiring and interviewing, and shockingly enough there isn't any good research I can find on effective hiring practices. I worry that asking puzzles and brain teasers is just a fad that isn't doing anything to pick out the best candidates. There's no real evidence that we're doing it right...

<comment><USER45> Personally I would reply that I'm an application developer and none of those questions are related to my job. 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a shit how it works. From their questions, I would say they're searching for a low-level library developer with a strong background in mathematics.

<comment><USER46> >> " 'this' refers to the object, I don't give a shit how it works."

Well, it is quite important knowing how `this` works in JavaScript. See: <http://www.digital-web.com/articles/scope_in_javascript/>

<comment><USER29> Also its really important to know how float works in javascript. because 0.1 + 0.2 != 0.3 in Javascript.

I don't know why "application developer" == "Don't have to know how the thing I'm using works"

Quite frankly I can never get away from knowing how the thing I'm using works. My greatest wish is that in 2050 we will create a computer language that has no performance penalties and all the JITers/vms/compilers are invisible to me. Until then I'm forced to learn all the inner workings of my languages if I want them to run reasonably.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Worth noting that H1B is more difficult to get without a college degree (so I've been told). I have no credentials and the companies I'd like to work for don't care for them either, but unfortunately the government cares because that's their only grading system for people (it's not like they're gonna look at your GitHub profile).

There have been several companies in the past years that expressed their interest in hiring me but were put away by this problem. I don't blame them, I blame the system.

<comment><USER48> I think it's a Bachelors degree or the equivalent years of experience, with one year of a degree being equivalent to 4 years of work experience. So you would need 12 or 16 years of work experience...

<comment><USER49> That's funny because in the real world I think it's more like the other way around, 1 year of work experience is like 4 years of a degree. (Note: I'm currently studying cs)

<comment><USER48> Yeah, 1 year work experience > 1 degree IMO

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> how do you delay a function to the next tick in javascript?

<comment><USER51> That phrasing isn't very precise, but I presume they mean to use setTimeout and pass a timeout of 0 [0]. That link has some discussion of this use and suggests using window.postMessage instead, at least on "modern browsers", for a suitable definition of modern.

[0] <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/window.setTimeout>

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> Immigration is such a complicated issue – talented workers attempting to immigrate into the country, and bureaucracy getting in the way.

<comment><USER53> We have very high unemployment. Also, the national identity and cohesion is swamped by a far too large influx of foreigners. There should be an immigration moratorium. Essentially zero people should be let in until there is robust job growth.

There should be a much longer moratorium on granting foreigners citizenship. Immigration rates are far too high and on a course to create serious overpopulation problems in north america. <https://www.numbersusa.com/content/>

<comment><USER54> It's exactly this thinking that can kill science and startups. That there is unemployment, does not mean there is unemployment in every branch of the industry. In branches, where there is a lack of qualified workers, you need to take in immigrants, or you will become uncompetitive.

Also, remember that there are many people who just want to work in a different country temporarily because it is good for their career+. E.g. here in The Netherlands, we have a high influx of Chinese students and PhD candidates. But nearly all of them return once they have a degree (a degree from a Western university usually gives them good positions in China).

\+ There seems to be a widely spread belief in the US that the rest of the world is envious, and would preferably want to live in the US. I have been in the US very often, but I'd never want to live in the US permanently. Social welfare, healthcare, paid leaves, pensions, etc. are so much better arranged in West Europe.

<comment><USER53> > this thinking that can kill science and startups

If an industry does not employ the native people in a country, or only enriches a clique of owners, then who cares if it leaves? In any case, this line of argument is malarkey. There is no evidence of restrictive immigration driving away business. Typically you just get an industry with higher capital investments and higher wages.

<comment><USER9> > If an industry does not employ the native people in a country, or only > enriches a clique of owners, then who cares if it leaves?

That's a pretty extraordinary premise. Do you have evidence to support the idea that Silicon Valley only enriches a clique of owners, or that it wouldn't employ Americans? Or is this purely hypothetical?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> putting my very first comment in HN here.

Does anyone have any experience or know the process with transferring from F-1(ESL school) to H-1B?

From What I've been told the process is F-1 > OPT > H-1B but currently,I'm in ESL school and can't get OPT.

Briefly background :BSc from Thailand computer science,6 years experience with .Net full stack,Agile,Scrum,CMMI level 3,lately really into mobile app development(iOS almost 1 year)

I started applying for jobs by looking on the job listing site and even post my resume on craigslist. got several job interviews at the time apparently by phone which both directly from company and recruiter.

overall,the interview went pretty well then last question I was asked what is your currently work status I told them F-1 student visa.... nailed it...Well,never get a call back.

never give up I jump in every single opportunity, read every searched result to start my startup in USA (e.g. blueseed,startup visa act).

Went on one face-to-face job interview and finally,got a job offer as software engineer and assistant software architect they told me that they are willing to sponsor me for H-1B. They made a contact with one law firm and I got a couple forwarded emails from them which being said how the process works and how much will it cost blah..blah..blah (the company tried to show me that they were starting the process getting me a working visa).

the law firm asked what school are you in right now I said I'm in ESL school then they said you will get a better chance if you are not in ESL school but either graduate school or college which majoring in any field that related to the job.(software engineer).

This led me to my question above and I would like to know your opinion that Is there any chance for me to get a working visa in this situation?

Thank you.

</comment><comment><USER56> Fellow US citizens, we should be grateful for what we've got :P

</comment><comment><USER57> I think there's not so much a talent shortage so much as there's a shortage of engineers who are gifted at contrived puzzle questions and willing to accept average pay for exceptional ability.

<comment><USER13> In my experience interviewing candidates for Amazon(1), there is definitely a talent shortage. We get a surprising amount of applicants that can't write a basic program. Personally, I reject 4/5 of all applicants at the phone screen because they couldn't write a very simple program.

I use a collaborative code editor so I can see what the person is typing, and I don't give trick problems. I pose the question, and ask them to think about it before coding. Once they've landed on an acceptable solution, I ask them to write it up. 80% of the time it's broken or they can't finish it (these solutions should be 20 lines or fewer). On at least one occasion the answer was copied directly from stack overflow :\\.

Trick questions are all the rage, but I'm not convinced that they actually highlight a competent developer. The problem (in tech, not specifically at Amazon) is we're all trying to emulate Google, and since they ask brain teasers then we _have_ to ask them too, because it must be the one true way.

In summary, I think there is both a shortage of good devs, and contrived puzzle questions are not actually an good for evaluating a candidate.

(1) These views expressed are my own, and not necessarily the views of Amazon or its employees. Disclaimer added at my own discretion, not due to any corporate policy.

<comment><USER58> Amazon has a terrible reputation which may distort who shows up. I have done conducted plenty of interviews for a few company's and having a solid reputation drastically improves the quality of candidates show up.

EX: Microsoft has middle of the road reputation and I know people that would literary consider with them at 120k to be a better option than 140k at Amazon.

<comment><USER13> That's a fair point.

There are certainly people who apply to Amazon after having made a couple websites, thinking that Amazon is just a website so they're qualified. What they don't see is all of the intense engineering that happens to keep that website running. A very small portion of our engineers ever write HTML.

Amazon does have a reputation of being cheap (and it's well-deserved), which is probably causing a lot of great devs to avoid the company entirely. That would skew the numbers in favor of less talented devs. However, I don't believe our rejection rate is higher than the industry average. 80% rejection at phone screens is pretty standard.

Edit: Also, for your particular example, Microsoft was _way_ better benefits than Amazon and a better office environment. I can't comment on pay, since I don't know their typical payscale.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> 3 hours max. Lol. How about 8?

As far as the interview. Stupid questions asked by stupid people who can't tell a techie from their asshole. Should be a technical discussion not an interrogation. Their loss.</comment>


Ask HN: How Trustworthy is Google PageRank? - <AUTHOR>

Hi guys,
Wondering if anyone can give me some feedback on their experiences with SEO and their site PageRank, we have been feverishly working on optimizing our commerce site : http://www.off2.com  for the past few months and went live in the UK earlier this week.
Weve been crawled by Google yesterday (i think!) and returned a Pagerank of 7.  We previously had managed to get a PR4 with our static holding page through inbound links, optimization etc.  Obviously we are very happy about a PR7  but I really want to know whether others have found that PR can sometimes be incorrect and adjusted by Google.  I've checked over our inbound links to find some .edu sites which of course carry a lot of weight with their PR8's.
Would love to hear the thoughts on any reversals or sudden changes others have seen. <comment><USER2> There are two PR calculations: the internal one and the publicly visible one you see on the toolbar.

Google uses the internal PR value as one factor (out of reportedly hundreds) in determining the rank of a page in the search results.

The publicly visible one is, for all intents and purposes, an entertainment channel like, for example, Comedy Central. It is never an accurate reflection of the current PR value Google uses internally.

So what to do? Use the Webmaster Tools and authenticate your site. The Webmaster Tools give you a ton of data about how Google sees your site which is a lot more valuable from a little green progress bar.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the info, I was somewhat sceptical we had just jumped from PR4-7 overnight, I have seen a large number of new inbound links but seeing as we only migrated the site over onto the new servers and propagated the URL last week we still have loads more work to get done on it.

Our keyword market in travel is as anyone would expect extremely competitive so hopefully SEO over time will prove to be a good investment of our time and effort, we were just rather shocked this morning at the new crawled Pagerank!

<comment><USER2> Well SEO on its own is not that useful. SEO to drive conversion is very very useful. To generalize, what's the final objective of doing SEO? Common answers are "get more buyers", "get more subscribers", "get people do download X", etc.

To give you an example: I have a PR5 page that ranks in the top 10 for a 50m results query. The page has links from really (really) awesome sites (think multinational companies). Traffic from this query? Minimal. Why? It's not a commonly used keyword and certainly doesn't drive that many subscribers to the site.

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly, were aware of the relevance of keywords and the optimization of our deep level pages with more detailed keywords.

We have started a review this week of our internal link structure and the use of more specific travel terms, ie 'holidays in tunisia' or 'package holidays in tunisia' for our deeper destination pages. Hopefully the relevancy of these search terms coupled with a well performing site should yield better results than we could ever anticipate for 'travel' or 'holidays' etc!!

Cheers for the input

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> puzzle-out If any of your team went to university in the uk, get the company featured on their news page - they all want to push their enterprise credentials - with a link, thats a free way of getting good google juice.

<comment><AUTHOR> We currently lease offices out of our local university (excellent subsidised rates!) so I am already over this, I've sent out a press release relevant to the local market and the university. We should get some links on their innovation centre website hopefully - its a .ac.uk tld so carries some weight with google and other engines.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Forget about your page rank. It won't get you anywhere. It helps you know where you are at, but what matters most is search traffic. You want to make sure that continues to climb. A high PR helps, but focusing on it won't help. Focus on building links with good anchor text, that match the keywords you are focusing on.

And if you do have a an actual PR 7 in Google that is great. It means you have a lot of link authority. Use it by targeting certain key pages on your site for the keywords that will drive traffic.</comment>


Facebook Polls Bring Reality To Davos Elite - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/01/facebook-polls-bring-reality-to-davos-elite/ <comment><USER2> Real time polling is all well and good, but it seems like facebook itself is a bit of an elite audience.

Do you really need facebook's infrastructure/tie-in to run a realtime poll? What advantages does running it through facebook have?

<comment><USER3> You already have all the other demographic information to make correlations from the poll results.

<comment><USER4> So long as poll viewers remember that Facebook's audience isn't a representative sample of the human race.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What's your email tags structure? - <AUTHOR>

I was wondering what's the preferred way of organizing tags for emails and what fellow IT-related people are using as a strategy to do this.
I personally am using my personal email address also for work ( I'm a freelancer ) and I'm using gmail as a host and Airmail as MUA.
My current organization is similar to :

    - <USER2>
    - <USER3>
    - <USER4>
    - <USER5>
    - <USER6>
      - <USER7>
      - <USER8>
      - ...
    - <USER9>
      - ...
    - purchases #Keep track of what I expect to be delivered
    - <USER10>
      - <USER11>
      - <USER12>
      - <USER13>
      - ...
    - subscriptions # Any newsletters
      - ...
    - travel # Keep track of my airplane tickets
      - BER -> SOF - Sep '14
      - BER -> AMS - Oct '14
      - ...
    - <USER14>
      - <USER15>
      - job offers
 I think mine is a little bloated. I use a lot of filters, but seems to be hard to manipulate all efficiently. My inbox is a lot behind inbox zero concept.
Anyway what works best for you? Any tips? <comment><USER16> Using the gmail smart labels a lot. Other than that I like to use labels for projects.</comment>