Ask HN: How can tech companies promote a socially liberal government - <AUTHOR> Tech companies in general are supportive of socially liberal policies (Abortion rights, LGBT rights, etc). How can they promote such views in the government? One way I can think of is to open more offices in swing states. As their employees tend to be more socially liberal, this will help elect more liberal candidates in the government? Any other ideas? <comment><USER2> IMHO the pretension by coastal billionaires that they are the "elites" who know what's good for us better than we do ourselves, is part of what the people on Twitter are calling #HowYouGotTrump. Google, for example, usually does one of their cute special-edition homepage graphics on every obscure Muslim holiday and the birthdays of famous Communists, but rarely ever celebrates Independence Day or Easter. Nice way to show how much contempt you have for a large segment of your customers, Google!

I would suggest that founders be a bit more respectful of their employees' and customers' diverse opinions. If you treat people with respect, they might just be willing to listen to what you have to say.

</comment><comment><USER3> History lesson: due to a law passed in 1929[0] the size of the House of Representatives is capped. Because states can't have less than one house member this means a vote in the midwest can be worth up to 3x a vote on the coast. Further compounding this issue, a state's electoral college vote count is equal to it's total congress members (2 senate + house) so that swings the pendulum even further toward the low population states.

This is how, in 2016, despite more actual people voting democrat in the president, house, and senate races, the party lost control of all three. [1]

Allow the total members in the house to expand so all districts have more equal members, and we can finally stop bending over backwards for a minority of citizens who insist we stay socially and economically in the 1950s.

[0][http://history.house.gov/Historical- Highlights/1901-1950/The...](http://history.house.gov/Historical- Highlights/1901-1950/The-Permanent-Apportionment-Act-of-1929/) [1][http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/11/10/democrats- won-popular-vote-senate-too/93598998/)

</comment><comment><USER4> Note your definition of socially liberal does not mention anything having to do with economic inequality, how do you feel about that?

The "locate offices in the swing states" answer is about the only one that can work given the structure of voting at a national level. Economic despair, desperation, drug addiction and all that in the heartland caused by Adam Smith "liberal" policies drive people to vote Republican as the Democrats don't offer an alternative. That's what's the matter with Kansas.

Also any kind of "brain drain" from the middle of the country to New York and California disempowers those who move politically. The tech industry has to stop siding with Comcast and Verizon and stop making excuses against rolling our sleeves up and getting rural broadband in.

<comment><USER3> I feel like you haven't spent much time in rural America. As someone who grew up in South Carolina, it's not someplace you want to be. No one opens offices in the heartland because the cheap land doesn't offset the difficulty in attracting talent (at least for software where office costs even in SF or NYC are dwarfed by personal costs). Intelligent people want to congregate, and the regressive policies of the American south and midwest (anti lgbt, anti women's rights, rampant racism, religious cultism, and strong currents of anti- intellectualism) give people no reason to reject the call to shinnier shores. At this point the only thing that can save these communities are universal basic income and you know the republicans they insist on electing won't provide that.

Repeal the House member cap passed in 1912 and let the representatives actually proportionally represent the population (and the Electoral college too) and all of the social issues caused by a gross minority of backwater states goes away.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Create a Corporate Congress. businesses have ideals and values, and often are forced to support the majority because it is the majority that is spending their money at that business and giving them power in the first place. with all of the downsides of a corporate congress, I see this happening especially with more deregulation [0] occuring... there is an opportunity growing for corporations to step in and lead the way. Encourage people to spend money at companies who values they support.

[0] [https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press- office/2017/01/30/presi...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press- office/2017/01/30/presidential-executive-order-reducing-regulation-and- controlling)

</comment><comment><USER6> Companies should not promote any such view in the government.

The government is by the people for the people. Only human beings should have any voice in the government affairs, and since we're assumedly in a democracy, with one man one voice!

Therefore companies meddling with government affairs and lobbying should be disbanded immediately.

<comment><USER7> But people...run corporations! And since we live in a country has decided that corporations are persons and have rights to free speech and participation in the political realm, why not use this privilege to advance civil rights?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Companies can start lobbying and donating money to politicians who align their views with theirs.

That's how it is usually done.

</comment><comment><USER9> Directly support candidates and political parties that reflect their views.

There are two parties in the US: Fascist and anti-Fascist. The anti-Fascists are doing a sorry, spineless job. But at least they're not writing bigoted laws.</comment>


Great Programmers (2004) - <AUTHOR> http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/4563.html

<comment><USER2> Well, I don't agree with his point of view and I don't agree that Bram Cohen was a good programmer. He has the merit of a good protocol like BitTorrent but not as a good programmer. I remember well the bitTorrent first desktop application: a Python code where they need to embed a whole Python interpreter to run it! an ugly UI that only few people can understand and it was after Napster and a lot of P2P early clients. I don't know many cases where a company needed to acquire another company client for their own protocol! yes, I am talking about uTorrent. I can think in TweetDeck but Twitter never implemented a desktop client initially. I think many programmers think that they are great but only a few are so great (think in people like Carmack)

Now, comparing his own point of view with my humble experience with great people I can say it depends... I know great people like Ricardo Quesada who built Cocos2D. Yes, he knows about architecture but his attitude is very different he work and he is passionate. I think in another people and they were not great in architecture but in achieving (almost) impossible things in short time.</comment>


Why Jason Fried gave his company a month off - <AUTHOR> http://www.inc.com/magazine/201209/jason-fried/why-company-a-month-off.html

<comment><USER2> I definitely wasn't expecting that because Jason Fried didn't give his company a month off. Jason Fried just gave his company a new role for a month. People still had to show up to work and do work, it was just they could do whatever work they wanted.

For me personally, I wouldn't enjoy that month. The main reason would be purely selfish. I know that my idea and implementation could make money and instead of releasing it on my own and profiting, it would become property of the company. I would also feel pigeon-holed into working on stuff that the company already does or in the same realm (which in my case is Business Intelligence tools to work with Cognos) which, while interesting, is not where my interests lie which would also limit my creativity.

It should be interesting to see what comes out of 37Signals in the next 6 months to a year.

<comment><USER3> In the article it sounds like they improved a lot of internal stuff, so perhaps they took the time to improve what they found as their biggest pain points in their day to day work. I do agree that my truest interests do not entirely align with what I'm doing at work.

Also, if I had a company and were to do this, I would implement a bonus system so that employees could receive additional compensation for putting forward their best ideas and efforts.

<comment><USER4> That would be wonderful. I notice that a lot of people are really generous with bonuses for their imaginary companies. But people with actual companies are always kinda stingy. What's up with that?!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> A big part of the 37signals play book is awareness through blogs and magazines. Their business model can't be "hey, we're going to sit here for 70 hours a week and crank out code" because then there is nothing to write about.

In one sense, they built a business that allows them to do crazy/fun/oddball things. Great.

In another, their model is not the model of a typical HN style start up, and following their advice without tempering it to your own set of realities is likely a bad idea.

<comment><USER6> > _A big part of the 37signals play book is awareness through blogs and > magazines. Their business model can't be "hey, we're going to sit here for > 70 hours a week and crank out code" because then there is nothing to write > about._

I'd say that the majority of their customers could not care less what they write about on blogs and magazines. They just use their services because they work for them.

That is, their business model is not "promotion through doing various stunts and writing/having others write about it" as you maybe imply. It's mostly to use, fellow developers, HN/Rails crowd etc that this writing gets known, and we constitute a tiny minority of their customer base, judging from the customer stories they post.

<comment><USER7> Sure, 37s products are good enough to spread by word of mouth, and they have an awesome customer base, so stricly speaking they don't need any press. They could shutter their blog and stop all interviews and continue on as a successful business indefinitely.

However if you're a young company learning the ropes and looking to emulate 37s' success, you have to first understand that 37s is a company that is built on PR. They were around for years doing consulting work before they ever built a single product. They were one of the early noteworthy web design blogs, and they built a significant audience right around the time people were figuring out how to go beyond brochure websites. So when Basecamp launched in 2004 they had the most valuable possible audience in the palm of their hands. It didn't hurt that true web applications were in their infancy, and they were essentially competing with bloated desktop software like MS Project, but it's important not dismiss their reach in the web design blogosphere. Without that, there's no telling if the product would have had the uptake to become their sole focus or whether they would have gone back to more consulting work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think a better title for this would be "Why Jason Fried gave his company a month-long hackathon", because that's basically what he did.

<comment><USER9> This is a great way to generate new ideas and get everyone involved. Google kind of did this with the whole spend 30% of your time on working on new projects. But yeah, this is a hackathon not a vacation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> "How can we afford to put our business on hold for a month to "mess around" with new ideas? How can we afford not to?"

Taking advice from today's 37Signals on how to build your company is like taking advice from Michael Phelps on how to become a competitive swimmer.

They are both FREAKS of nature: a perfect combination of natural talent, decades of hard work, expert coaching, and unlimited resources.

I love being an observer to their dominance, but you have to look hard at these "lessons" to take away what's the signal vs. what's the noise for your average start-up!

<comment><USER11> Attributing 37Signal's success, partially, to "unlimited resources" seems off. Except for a small investment by Jeff Bezos after they were already bootstrapped they had to make due with what resources they could get in exchange for their products and services. Twitter, Facebook, Zynga... those are the kind of start ups that can be accurately tagged with the "unlimited resources" descriptor, for 37Signals to get the resources they currently have they had to execute in ways none of those other "start ups" have been expected to.

<comment><USER12> point is, by following 37signals advice, you will not be 37signals. You probably won't be successful either.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This actually is better than the 20% dev time in Google and other places. 20% dev time sprinkled now and then won't help to develop an idea fully since there are still daily tasks that distract the pursuit. Development of an idea requires a long stretch of concentrated effort. 4 weeks off to experiment sounds right.

</comment><comment><USER14> For me the interesting bit is that web 2.0 companies, unlike brick and mortar companies, have to some extent disassociated the manufacturing part from the service part. So you can take a month (unless you are in Ops :-)) and do something completely different and its not visible outside.

Now if a McDonalds franchise said our employees are going to spend this month figuring out ways to improve or innovate in the fast food space, nobody could buy food for a month.

Since this feature is relatively new, its not commonly thought of as an option. To be fair though in professional practices like Law Firms, this has been implemented in the more 'we are getting out of the office' kind of thing. In that case it seems to counteract burnout from the insane hours that people put in during litigation.

</comment><comment><USER15> Erm - the company didn't take a month off.

Is there an app to auto-rewrite misleading headlines?

</comment><comment><USER16> "For the entire month, we set aside all nonessential product work (everything besides customer service and keeping our servers running)"

Who did they offload the work to then?

</comment><comment><USER17> Ugh. Title is wildly inaccurate.

Love the nonsensical barbecue photo.

</comment><comment><USER18> Previously discussed: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4404167></comment>


Landfill search for 'E.T.' Atari video game is halted - <AUTHOR> http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/03/20/landfill-search-for-et-atari-video-game-is-halted/

<comment><USER2> No, it's still happening: [http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/video-games/search-old- e-t-atari...](http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/video-games/search-old-e-t-atari- games-go-new-mexico-landfill-n59101)

</comment><comment><USER3> Price for a loose cartridge is up 350% in last 12 months!

[http://videogames.pricecharting.com/game/atari-2600/et- the-e...](http://videogames.pricecharting.com/game/atari-2600/et-the-extra- terrestrial)

New in box its worth 7x that, around $30.

</comment><comment><USER4> No one has a rom? Seems less messy.

<comment><USER5> Of course people have ROMs. There are even hacked versions fixing most of the bugs and adding additional features (I'm thinking here of a very long writeup explaining exactly how they did it, and claiming it isn't such a bad game when they're fixed, which was submitted to either Reddit or HN). But the physical thing is not a ROM.

<comment><USER6> It's also not that hard of a game to find, even with the destruction: AtariAge [1] rates it a 1 out of 10 ("Common") in rarity, and I know I own at least two copies.

Also, it's interesting to note that HSW (Howard Scott Washaw, who coded the whole game in 5.5 weeks) has said at least once that he doesn't believe the landfill incident actually occurred[2].

Quoth HSW: "I had many friends all over Atari, if the company was burying all these carts someone would have told me. And the moment they did, I would have immediately grabbed a photographer and hopped the next flight out and gotten some great protraits of me standing on the pile. How could I possibly not get that picture as a momento?"

I can't believe that post is over ten years old already!

[1] [http://atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=157](http://atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=157)

[2] [http://atariage.com/forums/topic/7337-5-million-copies-of- et...](http://atariage.com/forums/topic/7337-5-million-copies-of-et/?p=422889)

<comment><USER7> I bought it when the Ames department store was having their final liquidation sale, the only friggin thing left in the entire store the day before closing was a pile of the E.T. game on an otherwise empty shelf marked down to a dollar or so.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Right-to-die man dies after refusing food - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19341722

<comment><USER2> Rest in peace Tony...</comment>


U.S. Education Assessment Shows Modest but Steady Gains in Math Scores - <AUTHOR> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=american-math-scores

<comment><USER2> Professor Hung-hsi Wu of the University of California Berkeley writes many interesting articles about mathematics education reform in the United States.

<http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/>

In one of Professor Wu's recent lectures,

<http://math.berkeley.edu/~wu/Lisbon2010_4.pdf>

he points out a problem of fraction addition from the federal National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) survey project (the same "Nation's Report Card" mentioned in the article submitted here). On page 39 of his presentation handout (numbered in the .PDF of his lecture notes as page 38), he shows the fraction addition problem

12/13 + 7/8

for which eighth grade students were not even required to give a numerically exact answer, but only an estimate of the correct answer to the nearest natural number from five answer choices, which were

(a) 1

(b) 19

(c) 21

(d) I don't know

(e) 2

The statistics from the federal test revealed that for their best estimate of the sum of 12/13 + 7/8,

7 percent of eighth-graders chose answer choice a, that is 1;

28 percent of eighth-graders chose answer choice b, that is 19;

27 percent of eighth-graders chose answer choice c, that is 21;

14 percent of eighth-graders chose answer choice d, that is "I don't know";

while

24 percent of eighth-graders chose answer choice e, that is 2 (the best estimate of the sum).

I wrote an email to Richard Rusczyk about Professor Wu's document, and he later commented to me that if only 24 percent of eighth graders in the United States can find the best answer for that question from that list of choices, that's suggestive that 76 percent of American young people have no hope of having any career that demands mathematical competency.

Some countries set much higher standards of mathematics competency for young learners. My wife is from one, Taiwan, and I know various first-generation immigrants to the United States from other countries where primary mathematics instruction is much better than in the United States. Chapter 1: "International Student Achievement in Mathematics" from the TIMSS 2007 study of mathematics achievement in many different countries includes, in Exhibit 1.1 (pages 34 and 35)

<http://pirls.bc.edu/timss2007/PDF/T07_M_IR_Chapter1.pdf>

a chart of mathematics achievement levels in various countries. Although the United States is above the international average score among the countries surveyed, as we would expect from the level of economic development in the United States, the United States is well below the top country listed, which is Singapore. An average United States student is at the bottom quartile level for Singapore, or from another point of view, a top quartile student in the United States is only at the level of an average student in Singapore. That is despite the fact that most students in Singapore in my generation attended school in a foreign language (English, which was not a language they spoke at home) so that there is no more than one generation in Singapore that can even be relied on to carry on a conversation at home in the sole language of school instruction there.

The United States is making some painfully slow gains, as the article reports, but it has a long way to go to provide "world-class" education to all pupils, even though my local school district is one of many that claims to be providing "world class" education.

<comment><USER3> beware selection effects.

<comment><USER2> _beware selection effects_

Please explain. (Citations to sources you like would be kind to onlookers.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Wow, you get slight gains in tests when you start forcing teachers to "teach to the test".

It's like managing programmers by rewarding high LOC / day. There's pros and cons to this approach. The pro is you control the system, and don't just let brain-dead practices remain. For example, you sack the programmers who don't actually program, or encourage the teachers who don't actually teach to lift their game. Welcome back to the 1920s.

The con is that people start gaming the system.

It's like putting a patient in an iron lung. It keeps them above a certain minimum level, but it's also a sign that things were well and truly screwed before hand.

</comment><comment><USER5> One thing most people never get with this topic is the enormous variation between groups, whether regional, socio-economic, ethno-cultural, etc. Fareed Zakaria has said something to the effect that America could be cleanly split into two nations, where the children of one perform at or better than the level of European and even some East Asian nations, whereas the children of the other perform abysmally, on par with the poorest of the developing world. In America, aggregate measurements are meaningless.

<comment><USER2> I think Eric Hanushek and Paul Peterson do a better job of showing their work any time they write than Fareed Zakaria, and they point out that the top students in the United States are laggards by international standards, because they are underchallenged by the meager United States curriculum.

<http://educationnext.org/teaching-math-to-the-talented/>

I can verify that statement because I have seen mathematics curriculum materials from other countries. (I read Chinese, and own dozens of Chinese- language mathematics textbooks from China and Taiwan, and I have found English translations of textbooks from several other countries in academic libraries in my town.) Doing thorough research on this subject, not the kind of research that a weekly magazine columnist or blogger does, but THOROUGH research, puts the lie to the idea that it is mainly demographic characteristics of the United States population that put the United States so far behind the top- performing countries. Review just how stark the differences in performance levels are,

<http://pirls.bc.edu/timss2007/PDF/T07_M_IR_Chapter1.pdf>

and then check the work of researchers who are analyzing where the problem really is in the United States.

There is a problem of a bottom-performing group in the United States, but it is a problem of a bottom-performing group of teachers who are unable to teach primary school subjects. Encouraging the bottom 5 percent of teachers in the United States year on year to find new occupations would help enormously,

[http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/admin/pages/files/uploads...](http://edpro.stanford.edu/hanushek/admin/pages/files/uploads/Hanushek%202009%20CNTP%20ch%208.pdf)

but meanwhile some people are showing the courage and research orientation to identify ways to help the learners in the United States who need the most help to learn more mathematics and other subjects.

<http://www.teachingasleadership.org/></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Do you regret becoming a programmer? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Yes. I think I could have excelled in other areas. As a programmer I'm just average or below average.

I was quite motivated and bright in my youth, and could have picked a number of careers where I had some skills. Decided to go with programming because I was excellent in math (and liked it), and wanted to do something applied instead of teaching. Coming from a poor background, I had ZERO knowledge about what programming is really like as a career, and what other applied math careers exist out there. I thought if you study math, you become a teacher. There were also other areas besides math that I liked and excelled at, so I could have picked a number of those.

So when I started with CS, I was already late in the game compared to others who started younger, had very little support in my learning and no peers to connect with as a woman in 90's/early 00's. It resulted in stumbling around a lot in my career and ending up as a probably below average programmer. Also realized too late that it's going to be very hard to find any math-intensive work as a programmer unless you hold a PhD.

Add to that some discrimination - I think young girls today have it a bit better than before, but women above 35, moms? Not many people want that. I had to remove my picture from LinkedIn because it got me less recruiter hits WITH a professional picture.

<comment><USER3> For what it's worth, there are areas where you can do math-intensive stuff without a PhD.

E.g. personally after not doing anything math-y for two decades I stumbled into a job doing image processing.

There's also graphics programming, although I get the impression that can be extra toxic environment. However, [https://twitter.com/sehurlburt](https://twitter.com/sehurlburt) will occasionally post links to companies that aren't toxic that are hiring people, and some of them are welcoming to people without prior knowledge of the specific domain. E.g. [https://twitter.com/sehurlburt/status/1043182104140345345](https://twitter.com/sehurlburt/status/1043182104140345345)

<comment><USER4> > For what it's worth, there are areas where you can do math-intensive stuff > without a PhD.

i agree. there aren't a huge abundance of such job opportunities, but there are a few out there. for me it was a few years doing development with splashes of applied operations research (discrete optimisation, liner programming, etc).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Yes. i wish i'd gone into finance or accounting or something. i believe i would be in a much better place financially today, and the career path would have been much easier to navigate: ever met someone in finance who studied for months to get ready for an interview? me neither.

the software profession is very two-tiered: you either get a job at a FAANG or FAANG-equiv firm whre the pay is good and there are the opportunities for growth ... and then there's everything else.

in many places it goes like this: you're very much treated like a cog, managers -- and "project managers" especially -- won't have any real understanding of what engineers do, there is disorganization, lack of planning, and/or engineers have never been challenged to grow, and over time you end up dealing with lots of tirefires.

if i knew of a way to do something different while maintaining my current income, i would do it.

<comment><USER6> > ever met someone in finance who studied for months to get ready for an > interview? me neither.

I have. My roommate in college. A lot of students in his group studied very year for internships with finance companies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Not once. I have been doing it for just over 30 years now and I run up the steps to fire up emacs every morning. I have lived through an amazing time, from an Apple ][+ with 16k plugged into a black and white TV to mobile and communication technology today that feels like science fiction.

I am very excited to see what the next ten years or so will bring.

<comment><USER8> Same here (30 years). If I didn't have so much interesting work I would program in my free time. I just really like it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> No regrets in becoming programmer.

But I regret the way programmers are treated in industry these days. It went from a niche profession to industrial worker. Being a programmer these days is similar to a worker working in a car assembly line.

<comment><USER10> Yeah, it seems programming as a career sucks. But the ability, skill itself is wonderful, nothing else compares to it.

<comment><USER11> Very much agree with you here. I have not been able to secure the superb job I dream of yet, but my skills have gotten to the point where a teenage version of myself would definitely ask, "How the hell did you do that?!" =)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This profession lifted me out of poverty and made it possible to take up hobbies without having to think about money. I am thankful.

<comment><USER13> Same story here. Never got a BA, mainly because I was raised in a culture of poverty. By the time I was working as an engineer in 2000's SF it never made sense to go back. Now I feel discriminated against by organizations who feel it is a requirement. Luckily at 39 years of age with former employer prepping for an IPO I'm ready to go back to my blue collar roots and start building homes in the Sierra foothills.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I think I regret becoming a programmer, but I do not regret knowing how to write programs. If that makes sense.

<comment><AUTHOR> As In programming has helped your mind think in different ways, but the profession is no longer appealing to you?

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Sometimes.

I studied physics at a well respected, internationally recognized university, and had made all the right connections to get into a masters/PhD programme for particle physics. I ended up not pursuing that path because at the time I found programming & software development more interesting, and more lucrative (this latter is still true - there's no money in physics).

But, at times, I wish I could go back and do it all differently. I often lament the knowledge I've essentially forgotten, and leaf through some old textbooks and papers nostalgically.

</comment><comment><USER16> No. I always had a purpose to program more than the client needing it. I have always worked on products, and was always allowed to explore my creativity, so that might also be a reason. Programming was always "goal oriented" for me - either having to simulate an engine for my BE project, or creating components for our products to differentiate from our competitors, thus maximizing hikes which allowed me to pursue other interests, or lately, starting my own company. So, while I have experienced several minor burnouts, which lasted many weeks to a few months, I have never had any regrets. I hope to gracefully transition to pursuing other interests in a few years, and I will fondly remember this programming phase.

Based on that experience, my guess is that those who regret are usually those who just go through the motions. They most likely don't have side projects, or ideas to pursue, and the monotone of programming gets to them. Lets face it, our industry is all about repackaging the same old solutions, but for different clients, and that's quite boring. I like to imagine that engineers in other fields do a lot more than what programmers do, which makes things different even when repackaging solutions, but I could be wrong. In Indian context, there are many people I know, ranging from senior engineer or VP, working in multi national companies, with very good salaries, but are quite disenchanted with their jobs because they are nothing more than glorified bricklayers working in India while the architects send out instructions sitting in USA or Europe.

</comment><comment><USER17> Allowed me to travel the world always making the top percentile of the local population and have a very good life.

Super creative and challenging job ! Maybe I was lucky in that I worked in amazing companies but I've never had jobs where I felt like a cog.

I've also never worked at a FAANG. Only think I would say is that every company I worked (for the most part) had an R&D department or mentality and was product driven. Needless to say software was always the differentiator of the product.

</comment><comment><USER18> Regret is a subjective feeling, not always related to validity or usefulness. A better question could be what pitfalls to avoid when becoming a programmer, or when choosing a career path, etc.

The question may also suffer from sampling bias:

-Is a programmer and does not regret it (represented)

-Is a programmer and regrets it (represented, less likely to respond)

-Is not a programmer and does not regret it (not represented)

-Is not a programmer and regrets it (not represented)

<comment><AUTHOR> Also my question is not about improving oneself in programming. Today there is alot of glamourizing of programmer sso would be interested to hear from people on the other end.aka I'm looking for subjectivity

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I have no regrets as such on choosing this profession, since its been a passion since the very first time I saw a computer. The regret however, is doing this for over 6 years now and not having upgraded with a post graduate degree i.e either a MS or MBA. This gradually becomes a regret when I see my colleagues from engineering having moved on to higher or better positions financially.

</comment><comment><USER20> Do I regret working certain places and on certain technology? Sure. But I cannot think of another career that still pays reasonably well, offers creative freedom, good job prospects, advancement avenues, and a fast changing ecosystem to keep things fresh-ish.

Only large downside is the age-ism in the industry. Hopefully I won't be looking for work in my 60s.

</comment><comment><USER21> I have been programming professionally since 1974. I have never had any regrets.

<comment><USER6> > I have never had any regrets.

You have lived a very charmed life.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> No, I took this job to free people from having to do unnecessary work.

I just wish it resulted in people having more choice in how to use their time, rather than cutting regular people out of their livelihood and concentrating wealth.

</comment><comment><USER23> a more interesting question might be "Do you regret _staying_ a programmer (after the first n years)?"

</comment><comment><USER24> I enjoyed programming when I was younger, but didn't really consider it as a career until I needed to make money. I've had other jobs and this certainly takes the cake compared to those, but I hate that all my productivity requires me to be sitting in front of a computer. I don't really get any satisfaction from my work either, but I've accepted that as part of life. Need to put food on the table somehow. If I had to do it over again though, I probably would choose something that requires me to be out and about more.

</comment><comment><USER25> Have I regretted for majoring Computer Science?

1 million percent yes!

Have I regretted becoming a programmer?

I have no idea, as I was never given the opportunity to become one!

I'm 36, a genuine generalist, the standard "jack of all trades, master of none", and obviously I'm doomed in this miserable field.

Am I looking for something else to do?

Yep, but I have no prior experience to anything else.

If I had the opportunity to travel back in time and kick my butt for choosing computers and technology, I would gladly do so.

I miss my childhood so much...no cell phones, no internet, no FaceBook or Instagram.

I feel like a 90 year old grumpy grandpa -_-

</comment><comment><USER26> When I was younger, I was deciding between a career as a programmer or an artist. I went with the logical conclusion that the former would be more financially stable than the latter. I don't regret this decision, as I do find programming work compelling. There are always many new things to learn and new challenges to overcome.

</comment><comment><USER27> Yes. If you don't know how to do the grunt work then noone's going to be able to make you do it. In one job I ended up spending most of my time programming for my junior's project simply because she couldn't (or wouldn't) do it herself. When the company was taken over she kept her job but I lost mine.

</comment><comment><USER28> No.

I do regret going to school to become a programmer so close to 40, because being a 40 year old programmer with newbie skills and no professional experience makes getting hired in an already difficult market just slightly more difficult.

So now I pay down my student loans doing other things and write code on the side and educate myself online.

</comment><comment><USER29> I regret that I will have RSI pain in my arms for the rest of my life. Chronic pain is depressing.

</comment><comment><USER30> tldr; "no"

I have been programming since I was 11 when I first started in Turbo Pascal and Borland C++ (somewhat simultaneously), I then started working as a teenager doing freelance work and getting some cash on the side (which was great). I never had internet back then as it wasn't around yet, so learning to get programs to work and debugging things was a minefield, and I loved it!

I then moved countries and got work visas on my ability, bought houses and raised a family, spoilt everyone along the way.

I'm glad I made those decisions more than 20 years ago, and I still enjoy everyday and what I do!

<comment><USER31> twins. I was born in 82 and the borland pascal and c++ compilers were my first "real" languages after some qbasic.

that feeling when you'd stay up all night long stuck on a problem with nowhere to turn for help, then finally, eureka.

oh also, mode 13h.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> No regrets.

</comment><comment><USER33> I wish I did.

</comment><comment><USER34> No, not yet.

</comment><comment><USER35> Absolutely not. Programming is about the only thing that keeps me going in tech. I cannot wait to ditch the data and application software consultancy I am required to do at present, because they lower my salary and kill my motivation.</comment>


A 600-Page Textbook About Modern Monetary Theory Has Sold Out - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-05-31/a-600-page-textbook-about-modern-monetary-theory-has-sold-out <comment><USER2> I found the article to be poorly written and confusing, at least in that it failed to answer the most simple question I had: "What is MMT?"

The Wikipedia article seems far more useful:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory)

To quote the intro:

"MMT advocates argue that the government should use fiscal policy to achieve full employment, creating new money to fund government purchases. The primary risk once the economy reaches full employment is inflation, which can be addressed by raising taxes and issuing bonds, to remove excess money from the system.[3] MMT is controversial, with active debate[4] about its policy effectiveness and risks."

<comment><USER3> This sounds exactly like how communist economy used to work in Poland before 1989: Governing communist party claimed to represent the common people, so we had government-mandated full employment - state-owned companies (the only kind there was) were employing people, whether they actually needed them or not. To finance that, government would print money, causing hyperinflation.

Net result was: everyone had a job, everyone had a high (in nominal value) salary, but the money we had was worthles - you couldn't actually buy anything with it, because the store shelves were empty. Government had to ration all consumer goods, by introducing stamps (similar to foods stamps in the US).

It is funny to see communism making its great comeback :)

<comment><USER4> This will be extremely interesting and fascinating to see, and as a student of economics I hope we get to see these policies in action.

Mainly because, I feel there are very few data points to draw conclusions on how this will turn out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> MMT going mainstream is valuable because it's charging the conversation about what we really should be worried about in terms of fiscal policy. And the answer is inflation, if you want to know why we are still adding 200,000 jobs a year 10 years into our economic recovery it's because the Fed was too scared of inflation to signal that long term interest rates would remain low. The Fed should probably raise their target interest rate, especially if we are going to invest in green technology to mitigate climate change.

<comment><USER6> Inflation moves money from the rich (who have assets) to the poor (who have debt). Can't have that...

<comment><USER7> Inflation moves money from citizens (who have X amount of money) to the government (who can print money).

<comment><USER8> I'm surprised at view of inflation here. Inflation moves money from the future generation to the current generation. When you are printing money, you are in effect borrowing from future yourself (or your descendants).

This is one of the most magical modern things you can do with debt. Previously in human history, you can borrow money to _others_ to create wealth which was then translated into more money. This was an extra-ordinarily powerful concept we called "debt". Now we can borrow from _future_ ourselves! No one knows how this will pan out.

<comment><USER9> See "Debt, The First 5000 Years". The concept of IOUs (inflation) isn't new at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It is a kind of crazy cult - believing that more money simply solves problems, and that we should have full employment. There's extensive historical record on governments going drastically for full employment:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065380](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20065380)

That being said, MMT is also similar to what Japan has done, and it caused neither recession nor growth there. I mean the Japanese central bank owns even equity ETFs, it's kind of insane. And still no results, which is even more insane:

[https://www.economist.com/special-report/2018/10/11/what- to-...](https://www.economist.com/special-report/2018/10/11/what-to-do-if-the- usual-weapons-fail)

</comment><comment><USER11> Reminds me of when Piketty's "Capital" was sold out everywhere. I was one of many people who bought it due to the hype. Apparently I was also one of many people who never read it: [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/piketty-book-no-one- read_n_55...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/piketty-book-no-one- read_n_5563629)

MMT is very "in" right now but most people won't finish a 600pg novel, let alone a texbook.

<comment><USER12> You should actually read Capital, if only for the interesting data series he collected there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> > MMT argues that governments in control of their own currencies, like the > U.S. and Japan, aren't constrained in the ways standard economics says they > are. They may risk stoking inflation or running out of resources if they > spend too much -- but they can't go broke.

I'm a bit confused. My impression is that this is overwhelmingly the dominant view in mainstream political discourse. My impression is that, at least in the United States, it's considered fairly radical to talk seriously about significant spending cuts, balancing the budget, or even having the slightest concern at all about budget deficits or national debt.

<comment><USER14> I think talking about spending cuts and balancing the budget were pretty common not too long ago. It was a big part of Paul Ryan's speaker-ship.[0]

Republicans (and some democrats) have used "balancing the budget" rhetoric, to justify cutting or refusing to expand wellware and social safety net programs. This has died down once they got into power because no one actually want to balance the budget (cutting military spending is not exactly a hit in republican strongholds).[1]

So in a way you are right, no one is _seriously_ talking about balancing the budget, but people certainly were talking about it.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Path_to_Prosperity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Path_to_Prosperity) [1] [https://www.vox.com/policy-and- politics/2018/12/10/17929460/...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and- politics/2018/12/10/17929460/paul-ryan-speaker-retiring-debt-deficits-trump)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> They should print more

<comment><USER16> Books or money?

<comment><USER17> Yes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> [https://outline.com/6ZH6md](https://outline.com/6ZH6md)

</comment><comment><USER19> I'm torn between whether this is 'good' because people are learning about seignorage and taxation through fresh eyes because everything is called something different, or if it's bad because it's an insane cult

<comment><USER20> I'm sure there's a good point underlying this but could you please follow the site guidelines and not be snarky on HN?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

<comment><USER21> believing in "something out of nothing" \- yes, this is a cult.

<comment><USER20> Ok, but we're looking for substantive comments here, not just labeling.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: System to organize and name your documents - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/we-build-dreams/folder-system

<comment><AUTHOR> While scratching my own itch, I started developing this organization system merging/adapting other systems. I work in architecture and organizing (normally large) projects is essential for productivity optimization. Feedback welcome!</comment>


The Curious Case for Impulse Computing - <AUTHOR> http://siliconangle.net/ver2/2009/09/24/the-curious-case-of-impulse-computing/

<comment><USER2> the promise of changes at the edge of the network are now happening.

Validation: With microblogging (or other forms with video and audio) and > 3G mobile new data forms will create massive new opportunities that will disrupt - search, UI, enterprise computing - this is the real time web

The Real Time Web is only value if it solves Real Time Needs

I'm very bullish on the real time but not the way most startups are approaching it. Most are missing the boat big time. Great opportunity for developers and entrepreneurs.

</comment><comment><USER3> Its the Y combinator guys I was thinking of when I wrote this one. Sincerely curious for their thoughts.

</comment><comment><USER4> Definitely split into two categories, one of startups and potential startups cultivating ideas.., other with enterprises that have "fringe projects" where time and budget are a factor

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> My friend James Watters talks about the new markets created by something viewed as a "replacement" trend.</comment>


Tell HN: While screen sharing, my updated resume became visible for 5 seconds - <AUTHOR> I was making a presentation, showing the new feature I'm developing. Instead of opening the PDF with screenshots of UI progress and API documentation I'm writing, my updated resume became fully visible for the whole team of 20+ developers to see, for at least 5 seconds.
I have no idea what to do
Do I pretend like nothing happened? nobody has said anything yet.
I hope no one was paying attention.
oh well! I just wanted to share with you guys. <comment><USER2> If anyone has a problem with it, tell them that you update your resume every year, sometimes more often if you change roles significantly or add new major capabilities/certifications. I firmly believe everyone should be doing that, and it's among the first bits of advice I give to any dev I mentor.

It doesn't mean you are actively looking for a new job. Generally, if you are the one looking you have put yourself in a buyer's market. You, and your potential increase in your next employers revenue, are what's being sold. So a buyer's market is not good here.

OTOH, people will come to you asking if you're interested, putting you into a seller's market, if you do the following and are legitimately good:

* Continually update your resume and make it publicly accessible as well as easy to find

* Network frequently, but also network organically, sincerely, and follow through by maintaining the connections you meet

* Get your work out there and visible via Github, Gitlab, contributing to Open Source projects, etc. Sometimes this is hard, for example if you work as a defense contractor.

I've had regular increases in overall compensation at rates usually above my peers, work on great teams, and all without a gap in employment since 2001. I am definitely not the typical HN reader though. East Coast, not in a VC startup, family, and defense contractor (though not on weapons).

<comment><AUTHOR> This is solid advice. You have provided me with a lot of wisdom, making the mistake a little "worth it" to be honest.

Thank for the wise words.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Well that was stupid. Rule number 1 for screen sharing is police your tabs (and other windows, etc.).

If it was only other developers... who cares? Even if it wasn't, it's not like you can put the cat back in the bag. You had clearly updated it for a reason, so if you're worried about it I'd say just carry on down the path you were already headed.

<comment><AUTHOR> You are right on this. Maybe they will take the hint, and treat me better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Probably half the people who saw that also are in the position of looking or half-looking for their next job.

Reframe it as a power-move!

</comment><comment><USER5> you are entitled to look beyond your current employer and keep an eye open and your personal documents up to date. i see no issue here. if you do, perhaps remind yourself why you updated your resume in the first place and stop worrying about what it will mean for your current employer. :) basically, don't worry.</comment>


UMC Engineers Found Guilty of Stealing Micron Secrets for China - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-12/chip-engineers-found-guilty-of-stealing-micron-secrets-for-china <comment><AUTHOR> Can't use normal archiving service; please reply with alternatives, especially ones that work on Bloomberg or other sites with open access issues. Thank you. Please accept my apologies with this Google AMP link if you need it:

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/arti...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-06-12/chip- engineers-found-guilty-of-stealing-micron-secrets-for-china)

Original title lacked context. It was:

Engineers Found Guilty of Stealing Micron Secrets for China</comment>


Scientists Develop "Intelligent" Coffee Mug - <AUTHOR> http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,643702,00.html

<comment><USER2> It's industrial design or product engineering, not science. They applied a known system of using "phase change material" to regulate the normalisation of the temperature of the contents of a vessel, in this case coffee/beer in a mug/stein.

Interesting though.

<comment><USER3> I started to try to write something deploring the incessant use of the word "intelligent" to things that are basically a good implementation of a clever idea, but gave up.

Your point is exactly right. The coffee mug isn't intelligent in any sense, it's the result of clever insight, followed by excellent implementation.</comment></comment>


Massive spinning ice disk forms in US river - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46891412 <comment><USER2> "A rare natural phenomenon taking shape in the US state of Maine is mesmerising people around the world."

 _Is it, really?_</comment>


Ask YC: How to turn my website into iphone app? - <AUTHOR>

Hi guys. I run a social networking site. I am thinking about writing a iphone app that lets people log in to send/receive messages to their friends. So basically all this capability is available from the website. I would like to write a iphone application to do the same. I know I can use the iPhone SDK to create an application but what I am not sure about is how to let that application connect to my site. Do I just write some php pages that return xmlrpc data that my application then just parses to display? So meaning that the iPhone app will call a 'web url' .. make a request.. get back some xml data and then display that? Is that the general idea??<p>Thanks! <comment><USER2> While the iPhone apps are cool (ok, a few are, most are rubbish), the lower hanging fruit is to make your app work in Safari on the iPhone. This is much easier, and can be done now(!). Nail this down, make it known to your users that you have this feature and see what traffic looks like. If you see some real iPhone usage, and really think it's going to improve usage, user experience etc. then go for it. I'm betting it won't though and that there are TODOs that are much more important than an iPhone app.

</comment><comment><USER3> You may try <http://www.mobilesitegalore.com>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I followed your guys advice and made an iphone webapp. It was surprisingly easy to do with iUI. Please give any feedback: <http://iphone.saddegeet.com>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Lets say that if I had to write one; do I just do what I suggested? I mean just have the app call a bunch of web urls and then parse xml?</comment>


Evil Android: Google Behaving Badly - <AUTHOR> http://www.fastcompany.com/1753223/evil-android-google-may-not-be-as-nice-or-open-as-you-think?partner=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+fastcompany%2Fheadlines+%28Fast+Company+Headlines%29 <comment><USER2> _Google couldn't choose to not renew a contract--effectively shutting off access to Android_

Although the specific issues regarding the Skyhook case seem suspicious there are a lot of half truths talked about Android, and seems to be one of them.

I do not believe there is any _technical_ reason you cannot create an Android device (Honeycomb excepted of course) without having a license from Google. That license covers the branding and the Google applications (closed source).

What's interesting is that far-east asian ODMs aside, no major device manufacturer has chosen not to license Google's brand and technologies.

So while there are handcuffs in the Android ecosystem, they are ones that the manufacturers choose to wear.</comment>


The year Apple lost its mojo - <AUTHOR> http://www.tech-no-media.com/2010/03/year-apple-lost-its-mojo.html

<comment><USER2> So, let me get this straight, the author prefers using a USB cable to sync then the wireless also provided? Once again, all app developers should know not to use the private APIs (although, to be fair, some have got caught based on using a framework from a third party). Since the new iPad looks to have some sort of common file area and sync support for that, I think I see why those calls remain private and Apple is looking at them.

The rest of the article is stuff that would be good on the AMB podcast.</comment>


TempleOS - <AUTHOR> http://www.templeos.org/

<comment><USER2> The idea of a barebones programming sandbox attracted me to this, but then reading through the rest of the site I felt like it was an attempt at sublime evangelism using Biblical passages as allegory for programming philosophy that then rambles on into a testimonial blog post.

I like resources such as the source code by address page, and the lack of complicated structures that get in the way of kernel programming, and I think it would still be fun to dig through the I/O and process management code when I have time to translate the naming paradigm so I can follow it.

<comment><AUTHOR> The guy is schizophrenic, which explains the biblical passages. I find it fascinating that he's obviously brilliant at what he does, but it's influenced (and hampered) by his condition.</comment></comment>


A philosophical difference between Haskell and Lisp - <AUTHOR> http://chrisdone.com/posts/haskell-lisp-philosophy-difference <comment><USER2> Common Lisp:

        (subseq
         (remove-if
          (complement #'numberp)
          (butlast list 3))
         0 5)

In above Common Lisp code, we use four different functions which do one task:

        * subseq sequence start &optional end => subsequence
        * remove-if test sequence => result-sequence
        * complement function => complement-function
        * butlast list &optional n => result-list

> This is known as composability, or the UNIX philosophy. In Lisp a procedure > tends to accept many options which configure its behaviour.

Check out the UNIX man for tail, grep, ... to see how strange above quote about 'unix philosophy is'. In reality Unix commands are programs with obscene amount of configuration options, piping data as text or bytes around...

Generally I'm a big fan of the descriptive code which one writes by using keyword options to Lisp functions. I think it beats Haskell code for readability by a mile, since the intent is much clearer in the source code.

</comment><comment><USER3> Ignoring "What _exactly_ does'Lisp' mean?"

The comparison to Common Lisp ignores its past {faulkner_quote}. Common Lisp has roots in the days before including a standard library was common practice. In part this is simply a design decision. In part it is the fact that compiling "remove-if-not" to binary implementation of the compiler/interpreter saved compile time; disk space; and facilitates REPL development. It also probably made distribution simpler in the pre/proto internet days when decisions were made.

By the time Common Lisp was standardized, it had many years of deployment in the field on commercial projects. The standard reflects use. Haskell's standard reflects a closer connection to Computer Science than to working programmers, e.g. threads are not part of the Haskell language standard, they're an extension incorporated by the ubiquitous Glascow Haskell Compiler [1]. ANSI Common Lisp rolled up similar extensions from a diversity of commercial and open compilers into the standard. It's an industry consensus document that results from commercial success. By contrast GHC maintainers are perhaps "benevolent oligarchs for life": a person who is offended by the impurity is free to "write their own Haskell compiler and make it popular.

[1]: [https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.0.4/docs/html/users_gui...](https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.0.4/docs/html/users_guide/lang- parallel.html)</comment>


It's time to bring back Windows NT - <AUTHOR> http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/it-s-time-bring-back-nt

<comment><USER3> "Tech old-timers like myself fondly remember Windows NT and all it stood for"

This is just rose tinted glasses really.

Remember all the "there must be a better way" conversations that were rampant in the NT3/4 eras. If you're in any doubt, pick up any old IT magazine of the 90s and remind yourself what we were concerned about. Things that Windows 8 does in its stride: hardware compatability, backups, speed - these are distant memories these days.

Usability was a bigger problem then than now. Fewer people in general had any idea about computers - how many can recall a first hand experience of a new- start talking into the mouse as a microphone (or similar caper).

<comment><USER4> If when you started your career, Windows NT was the shiny new thing, then maybe you would remember it fondly. You wouldn't know any better.

For me, Windows NT was like some kind of joke that nobody understood, instead taking it as a serious server platform even though it had uptimes usually measured in hours or, if you were really lucky, days. I'm pretty sure server admins at the time would be seeing Blue Screens of Death in their nightmares.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I made tons of cash developing for NT both for clients and for myself. I loved the platform and loved clear, well defined and well documented set of Win32 API's, exceptional debugging tools and development tools. And then came Ballmer with his complete lack of vision, absence of creativity, bigger-than- god ego and "me-too" business strategy producing nothing but mediocre and frustrating copycat products and services.

I deviated from development for Microsoft platform as it became overbloated with useless and then quietly abandoned with layers and layers of miscellaneous technologies.

Microsoft superiority is gradually rusting away by more creative and intelligent tools and solutions from other vendors. Until Ballmer is there - <USER2> do not think we can see any major improvements or anything even close to revolutionary new directions.

I wish Bill Gates would take a few months break from developing advanced toilets for Africa and clean up his old beautiful house, starting from the attic.

</comment><comment><USER6> What the author is really saying is "Drop metro and brand the resulting product NT". It's broadly what everyone else in corporate IT has been saying since Metro (or whatever it's now called) was announced. It reflects the fact that touch screen interfaces and twitter feeds are redundant for people who use windows for work. I agree with the premise, but the article is quite a long winded way of saying it.

</comment><comment><USER7> Just ditch the MS stuff and come to the *nix/bsd side, pasture is a lot greener.

<comment><USER8> There is no *NIX/BSD side to speak of.

I mean, sure, as a server Linux is exceptional. But as a client it is not even competitive in the business environment.

It isn't cost effective, time effective, or even well supported.

<comment><USER9> What do you think OSX is based on?

<comment><USER8> I wouldn't use OSX in an enterprise either. For almost exactly the same reasons.

<comment><USER4> What's wrong with OS X in the enterprise?

Many large companies have ended up with large installations because of a choose-your-own-laptop policy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think using Windows Server Core nodes for actual work and a dedicated node for administration and UI has more potential than Windows NT ever had. And honestly, Windows NT was a nightmare. It seemed compatible with Win95/98, but wasn't entirely. And I'm not talking about DirectX here. Back in the days, a HP-67 was a major innovation and some people didn't know what they ever did before getting one, but no one would really want them back today, right?

</comment><comment><USER11> Instead of a whole new windows how about this:

Disable "Metro" = true, Enable Start Button = true

Done! Now you have Windows 8 NT

</comment><comment><USER8> I agree with this article, but I think the way they suggest fixing it is over- kill.

What they're proposing is to have a new SKU for businesses/schools/etc. But having a new SKU will be expensive. More to maintain. More to market. More DVDs to ship. More QA. And so on. There is no way to view a new SKU such that it SAVES money.

What I would like to see is for Microsoft to keep the same number of SKUs but to give consumers more choice. Windows 2008 and 2012 Server come with two modes of installation - core and standard.

The issue with Windows 8 in particular is not that it has Metro ("modern"), it is that they forced people to use it. If they had just allowed people to install the Windows client in a "business" mode, people would have been happy.

So maybe Windows 9 needs a client equivalent of "core" mode. Essentially cut away all of the crud until you're left with a Windows 2000-like desktop experience, no thrills, no fun, just the absolutely basics of what Windows is.

</comment><comment><USER12> I know a few old time Windows IT people, when they mention NT it's usually in the same sentence as a cuss word.

<comment><USER4> For a long time, NT stood for "Not Tested".

Remember that Windows NT used to crash after 49.71 days when the uptime counter overflowed. Most people never noticed this because the server would crash for other reasons long before that.

<comment><USER13> It was windows "No Thanks" in my circles. But win 2000 was a gem - I liked it much more than XP back in the day.

<comment><USER14> Win2k was as good as Microsoft got. Reliable, stable, functional. Happily that was the last Windows platform I developed for.

<comment><USER4> Apart from the fact you had to reboot to change just about anything and there was no USB support, it wasn't bad for the era.

Stable where MacOS at the time was anything but, with the no-nonsense Windows 95 theming. As far as a desktop operating system, it was a pretty good package.

You didn't have the command-line tooling of Linux, but at least you could install it on your computer without having to dive into X configuration hell.

<comment><USER12> Pretty sure Win2k did have USB support, though you may have needed to install a SP.

<comment><USER4> At the time the "service pack" was called Windows XP. Maybe they added it after XP came out, though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Microsoft will never do this now that Paul has written the idea down in public, at least not with the NT name. No manager in Microsoft will push to reuse the NT brand and risk being called out on getting the idea from Paul Thurrott.

</comment><comment><USER16> Windows Server 2012 can already be a bare bone command line server without GUI. As far as workstations are concerned, the corporate world would hardly see Win8 for a long time to come. By that time, things will be changed anyway and/or the IT folks would strip the heck out of Win8 gui to suit their corporate environment.

PS: I don't know much about the author except to say that his About Me section is terribly written piece for any stranger visiting his site.

</comment><comment><USER17> correct me if i am wrong, but don't windows XP/2000 and windows 7 both use significant parts of the NT kernel, and aren't they the best OSs MS offers?

<comment><USER18> You are correct my good man. Came here to say YOU ARE USING NT.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Nostalgia for a time that never existed doesn't bring the world to a better place. It certainly doesn't help the state of technology.

</comment><comment><USER13> Or you know ... microsoft should drop the "emulate badly Apple" act and show real innovation.</comment>


Firefox Will Soon Block Third-Party Cookies - <AUTHOR> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/02/23/2126246/firefox-will-soon-block-third-party-cookies?utm_source=rss1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed <comment><USER2> I don't really like this. I work in the advertising industry and retargeting is honestly one of the most exciting things to come out.

Sure there are ways of cookieless retargeting, but it is a hassle. I mean, everyone's heard of Samy's Evercookie right? Then there are TCP stack signatures, and other companies like a few European DSPs that use cookieless tracking to track a person (IMO it's quite easy to use a GET pixel to actually capture a person's TCP stack).

You can use 3rd party cookies for good and evil. For example, for my personal project, Fork the Cookbook (<http://forkthecookbook.com>) I'm working on using pixel drops to track how many people fork recipes from embedded recipes (how else would one measure success of an idea). Most analytics softwares like Google Analytics uses 3rd party cookies.

I'm not too sure about evil uses of 3rd party cookies. I do not consider retargeting to be evil. Other stuff like tracking browsing history can be done but it is extremely inefficient, and does not really return much for the amount of time and effort invested into it.

What about PII you ask? Start with drop sites, where people willingly submit their personally identifiable information, and then it's up to the DMPs to actually correlate the data, which can then be used as ad targeting information. As far as I can tell, even with the big hoohaa over companies like Rapleaf, the truth of the matter is that it's very very inefficient so far.

Privacy is simple IMO. Don't submit your information to websites that ask for anything more than what is needed. Banning third party cookies is like using a cannon to shoot a mosquito.

<comment><USER3> I'm interested in the culture implications of your willingness to comment on a story like this and openly admit that you work in this area of the advertising (surveillance?) industry.

Certainly, I don't think anyone would feel comfortable commenting on a story about SPAM mitigation techniques (without using a throwaway account) with text like "This sucks, I'm a spammer, and I'm really excited about it. Don't like SPAM? Don't share your email address!"

Is there really that much cultural acceptance of your field? I assumed this was the kind of thing you had to awkwardly talk around when someone asks "what do you do?" in a bar where others might overhear your response.

One of the things that shocked me most while working at Twitter was that _nobody_ there uses an ad blocker. Like, I literally couldn't find a single person, and I've always assumed that anyone with the technical ability to install ABP immediately did so. So maybe I'm out of touch? Legitimately curious.

<comment><USER2> I did agonize for a bit when people say things like "the best minds of our century are working on people to click on ads", but I've made peace with myself. I chose advertising instead of finance because I deemed it to be less scumbaggy than finance (not really, online advertising is a shithole filled with mines and there are many many faces of online advertising ranging from the very clean to the very dodgy)

I thankfully work for a company that tries very hard not to work on the dodgy side of things, and we do actively work on tackling really dodgy stuff, so I don't think comparing online advertising to spamming is quite a valid point.

I don't think it's cultural acceptance. I'm just being open with my views. My views on online advertising is similar to my views on guns: advertising is not inherently bad neither is it inherently good.

<comment><USER4> _I chose advertising instead of finance because I deemed it to be less scumbaggy than finance_

What about everything else?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I blocked third party cookies in Chrome for awhile and finally gave up. It broke a surprising number of things, particularly Disqus embeds. Also the Instapaper bookmarklet although I admit that's a nerdy special case. Hopefully Firefox will have a way to let the user enable the few places where third party cookies are desired. That's a hard user interaction to get right.

(Disqus apparently now works without third party cookies: [http://help.disqus.com/customer/portal/articles/466235-enabl...](http://help.disqus.com/customer/portal/articles/466235-enabling- cookies))

<comment><USER6> Disqus not working sounds like a feature to me. What extension were you using?

<comment><USER7> No extension necessary. Just open chrome://settings/content and check the "block third party cookies" option. Anytime you navigate to a page with blocked 3rd party cookies, a cookie with an X will show in the address bar. Clicking it will let you add an exception.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> For those about to bemoan the breaking of things like Google Analytics: this patch only blocks third party cookies from domains that the user has never visited before. Since 99% of your visitors will have visited google.com, your Analytics should continue to function even after this update.

<comment><USER9> The GA script loads from google-analytics.com, not google.com.

        ga.src = ('https:' == document.location.protocol ? 'https://ssl' : 'http://www') + '.google-analytics.com/ga.js';

<comment><USER10> Safari already blocks most third-party cookies, yet Google Analytics works in Safari. An explanation of how GA pulls it off can be found here: <http://webpolicy.org/2012/02/17/safari-trackers/>

<comment><USER11> that looks like they're talking about doubleclick, not google analytics. GA works by setting a _first_ party cookie, so there's no need to work around anything. [https://developers.google.com/analytics/devguides/collection...](https://developers.google.com/analytics/devguides/collection/gajs/cookie- usage)

edit: oh, jonknee already mentioned that below.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Excellent. Now we need to block third party javascript and then we have a chance at a more secure web. After all, any third party javascript could be done by an underwater call between the server and the provider of the service.

<comment><USER13> Not sure blocking all ads will help the web. All those free sites you visit need to get their money from somewhere.

<comment><USER14> It would establish the web as a safe and secure platform, and I think that's in the best interest of the web.

To hell with your personal ambition to underhandedly monetize other people's users.

EDIT: I changed my statement from 'monetize your users' to specify 'other users' as that more accurately reflects the impact of Mozilla's change. Third- party cookies are used for tracking users that aren't yours.

<comment><USER15> With that statement, you're also saying "To hell with YouTube, Facebook, WordPress.com and every other site that wouldn't survive without money."

<comment><USER16> How does blocking third party Javascript prevent the sites that you mention from monetizing?

<comment><USER17> It lowers their income by forcing them to succumb to non-targeted advertising which is less effective and brings less money.

I'd love to see your ideas of a free and secure web without marketing money flowing into content provider websites.

<comment><USER16> Striving to maximize revenue is great. However, I don't see this particular issue as black and white as you present it. This will certainly make some websites less profitable, but I doubt that it would bring an end to the free web. In fact, aren't there are other ways to do retargeting?

Given Google's relationship with Mozilla, if this move would negatively impact Google, i would be very surprised to see it happen.

<comment><USER17> You are correct, it won't affect the omnipresent Google because virtually everyone has visited their domain at some point. This will target alternatives to Google, leaving us with one company to do effective advertising.

How is this in the interests of the end user is beyond me, really.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I don't actually think this policy will have the desired effect of improving privacy and similar.

While I do think advertisers and analytics abuse third-party cookies, they also have a dozen other things they can switch to that the browser provides fewer facilities to control: <http://samy.pl/evercookie/>

Meanwhile, any legitimate services that rely on third-party cookies would have little choice but to switch to whatever mechanism the advertisers switch to, to remain functional.

<comment> eric-hu What are legitimate uses of third party cookies? Not trying to be snarky or sarcastic, I'm just unaware.

<comment><USER19> Logging in to services like Disqus, for one thing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is awesome. I have had third-party cookies disabled in Chrome for a long time now, and I rarely experienced any issues with embeds (Disqus being the noteworthy exception). While Idespise third-party tracking embeds in general, they have gained significant traction on the web (the worst offender is of course Facebook). Since many people think site owners cannot be blamed for that (I think they can), blocking third-party cookies to me is the next best thing for the end user. Also, it's just intuitive to me; when I visit a shop, and I identify myself to the clerk, why should I automatically identify to all bystanders in the shop?

</comment><comment><USER21> With so many APIs in use, integrations, etc, there will be the potential for a lot of broken stuff. And many non-tech users won't understand why some sites suddenly stopped working. It will just present more challenges for developers of good apps that users want, in order to stop one set of specific behaviors that they do not want.

But advertisers won't just go home. They will find other ways to reach people with possibly more obnoxious and/or invasive tactics.

Reminds me of the spam problem. With all of the spam "solutions" and policies in place, it is now much harder than it should be for legit businesses to send emails to customers who've requested them. Yet spammers are still doing their thing with impunity.

</comment><comment><USER22> [http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3488893&cid=4299...](http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3488893&cid=42991759)

Uh oh. Any site that you visit even once can give you a cookie and suddenly become immune to third-party blocking.

<comment><USER23> That's actually a pretty elegant solution to the issues that most of Firefox's userbase would encounter if all third-party cookies were blocked (e.g. not being able to log in with or share via their Twitter and Facebooks accounts). How often do real users, particularly the ones who are unaware that cross-site tracking is even going on, visit domains like doubleclick.net or googleads.g.doubleclick.net?

For comparison, I block third-party cookies in Chrome and doubt that most users would be able to navigate the process of understanding when that breaks features on sites and then resolving the issue by selectively allowing the impacted domains. So, I think that's a positive feature in Firefox's (soon-to- be) implementation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I don't like this, beyond the discussion if 3rd party cookies are good or bad, these measures are always for the worst.

Not long ago IE set DoNotTrack by default. What happened? Every single company that respected the user decision for DoNotTrack, stopped doing so since it wasn't the user, but a browser the one who decided that.

Long story short: All the effort done with DoNotTrack was wasted.

With this story, cookie tracking is far from perfection. It might be great for ad companies, might me useful for retailers and might be creepy for some users, but IMO is the safest way there's to date to keep the equilibrium. There are choices to be protected from cookie tracking and there's plenty of information.

<comment><USER25> There's a critical difference here though. DNT was asking not to be tracked, not allowing the cookies is forcing it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I don't think third-party cookies are such a big deal. It won't stop retargeting (workarounds are possible) so what is it really solving?

<comment><USER27> What are some of the workarounds?

<comment><USER28> etags, png image, something about tcp stack tracking... there are work arounds and there will be more workarounds... blocking cookies is stupid... they are part of the web

<comment><USER28> here's a new one css ever cookie, shit it out in an hour after reading this post: <https://gist.github.com/taf2/5022672>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Per links on Duckduckgo, i installed FF plugins: noScript, privacyFix, doNotTrackMe, HTTPS everywhere, adBlock. Now maybe 5-8% of sites i visit show no content whatsoever, and maybe 1/3 of all sites total are broken. For those, Chrome

<http://fixtracking.com/#firefox>

</comment><comment><USER28> this is short cited. we don't even know or can imagine the type of interesting applications we are eliminating by saying no to third party cookies. I remember building a reservation widget that loaded via an iframe on a third party domain. Perhaps we would want to maintain some of the reservation history on the users browser (e.g. third party cookie). I believe this would still work, but as we continue to focus only on the use case of advertising and blocking re-marketing ads... we should remember there are other legit use cases for third party cookies.

</comment><comment><USER30> I cannot fully rationalize it, but I intuitively feel that this "holier than thee" Mozialla's approach will ultimately contribute to Firefox's demise.

<comment><USER31> Safari already uses this cookie policy.

<comment><USER32> While I don't agree that this is indictive of Firefox's demise, saying "fourth place browser does it" is hardly a compelling counterpoint.

<comment><USER31> Safari on iOS is an important browser, in terms of market share.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "Firefox Abandons Standards, Will Soon Stop Honoring HTTP Specification, Throwing Away Valid Headers It Doesn't Like". Admittedly, I'm biased.

<comment><USER33> Cookies aren't in the HTTP specification. RFC 2109, published a year after Netscape and then IE began accepting cookies, recommended that browsers block all third-party cookies.</comment></comment>


Git client for Windows - <AUTHOR> https://www.git-tower.com/blog/tower-for-windows-launch/ <comment><USER2> Really glad to see this coming to Windows.

To me Tower is the perfect combination of a coherent UI and a powerful tool.

If only more software I used could follow that theme...</comment>


Google to deliver wrong search results to would-be jihadis - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/12136765/Google-to-deliver-wrong-search-results-to-would-be-jihadis.html <comment><USER2> The last two paragraphs explicitly indicates that the headline (and much of the earlier part of the article) is misleading in its references to "wrong" or "opposite" search results:

 _A Google spokeswoman said the pilot project referred to by Dr House would bring up counter-narrative messages in "AdWords" \- the sponsored links which are returned at the top of a Google search - and not the search results themselves._

 _Dr House said later: "We offer Google AdWords Grants to NGOs so that meaningful counter-speech ads can be surfaced in response to search queries like 'join Isis'."_

<comment><USER3> And in some ways that is sort of worse. Does that mean that Jihadists are buying AdWords? Is Google trying to set an auction floor on the price of those keywords by offering grants which, they watch to see how high they can push up the ISIS bid price? How is this not like letting a shill at an auction bid up the price with the company's money? So the NGO wins? Fine they feel good about putting an opposing message in the ad slots, the Jihadists win the bid? Hey double win for Google, they get more Ad money and they didn't have to give any to the NGO to buy that Ad.

What's next, giving Grants to people who want to buy Anti-vaccine creatives next to searches of "measles" or "rubella" or "polio" ?

<comment><USER2> > Does that mean that Jihadists are buying AdWords?

No, it doesn't mean that. And if Google knew they were and were accepting money from them for that purpose of buying AdWords for recruitment, there'd be all kinds of legal liability.

<comment><USER3> There are two ways they could implement this, and one would be to whitelist[0] who could buy Ads on those keywords. The other is they could make them ineligible for AdWord buys and supply their own selected ads when the words were used. But that would mean they wouldn't need to give out grants since those Ads would be "free" to the NGOs.

They (Google) haven't historically been good at keeping bad actors out of AdWords (see the FTC penalty for showing Canadian Pharmacy ads[1]) but I could believe that things have improved since then.

The challenge is how it was phrased, "Grants to buy AdWords" which implies that the AdWords are already buyable, (which could be pretty easily tested with an AdWords account), and the difficulty the Ads crawler has with discovering pernicious redirects, how could Google even _know_ that they were selling an AdWord buy to a Jihadist?

But if it is possible, one has to assume that it happens right? These folks are pretty savvy with the Internet. And if it happens, we all know Google's Ad system is a bidding system right? So everyone bids, highest bidder gets the Ad at the next lowest Bid rate [2]. So funding a competitor to bid on these Ads will, by definition, force up the price paid for the Ads. Which effectively translates to Google improving its advertising revenue by funding an alternate bidder.

[0] which only works if you are able to keep the bad actors off the list.

[1] [http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/google-forfeits-500-million- ge...](http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/google-forfeits-500-million-generated- online-ads-prescription-drug-sales-canadian-online)

[2] [http://www.wordstream.com/articles/what-is-google- adwords](http://www.wordstream.com/articles/what-is-google-adwords)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The George Orwell in me hates this... a lot.

Today it's jihadis tomorrow its labor organizers.</comment>


Ask HN: Is there a place to see my final YC application after submission? - <AUTHOR> I made a few updates to my application on the night of the deadline, but didn't copy my changes over to a doc. Is there some place to see the application I submitted? <comment><USER2> Yes, YC should have sent you a email with your final submission.

<comment><AUTHOR> I got the email after the final submission, but made updates even after the final submission.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Gmail alternative? gsuite vs. fastmail vs. kolabnow etc. - <AUTHOR> Ready to dump gmail and pay for email service. I'm willing to pay <$10/month. This is really about wanting to own my own email/calendar data - I am not going to host my own, and given how important email is, definitely don't want some fly-by-night operation.
any thoughts as to what is the best way to go? seems like gsuite, kolabnow, fastmail, and outlook/office365 are resonable offerings, any others i should be looking at? any reason one is significantly better than another?
Requirements:
-migrate old gmail
-strong calendar app
-good web interface and iphone compatible (own app or native mail/calendar app)
-would prefer tagging vs folders for organization
-Reputable company with strong security <comment><USER2> 1\. [https://www.thexyz.com](https://www.thexyz.com) 2\. [https://www.fastmail.com](https://www.fastmail.com) 3\. [https://www.hushmail.com](https://www.hushmail.com)

</comment><comment><USER3> I know it's 'free', but Protonmail[1] does look promising. Not sure it has a calendar app though. I think Mailbox.org[2] has some office features like a calendar. The basic plan on Mailbox is EUR1.00 per month, but they do have other plans if you need more storage.

[1] [https://protonmail.com/donate](https://protonmail.com/donate)

[2] [https://mailbox.org/en/](https://mailbox.org/en/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! yeah protonmail doesn't have a calendar - which is a non-starter, but seems to be fairly high on the planned feature list...for 2+years...

Mailbox.org might be interesting but not sure why i would use it over another service?</comment></comment>


The Paywalled Garden: iOS Is Adware - <AUTHOR> https://stevestreza.com/2020/02/17/ios-adware/ <comment><USER3> Related: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22352184](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22352184)

At first it might appear to be a dupe, since that has the same title, but that is actually an article that links to and summarizes the current submission plus links to and summarizes a bunch of responses from others, including a few well known people.

<comment><USER4> Yep — as a matter of fact, this one would have been the right article to post here on HN.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> that is brilliant: Apple Music has ads about the Apple music service. Apple Arcade about the arcade service. The App store about App store deals. Apple Card about the Apple Card product. Ok, note taken.

Now checking my android phone, main screen just there on the top ... oh hey google in a multicolor G ...

yes they both qualify as adaware. The difference seems that the Apple approach is at least context-aware. You don't get random ads or suggestions system- wide. You get ... newspaper ads in the newspaper app, or music ads in the music app.

I honestly wish we had the same on the android front. Google is decidedly much more invasive these days

<comment><USER6> The google logo counts as an ad for you? Or does google actually show ads on stock-android?

<comment><USER7> Is there such a thing as stock Android?

Anecdotically, I have an Android phone that I use for development (i.e. it sits on my desk most of the time). Every time I turn it on I get notifications that I have updates available or something has been updated or whatever - <USER2> the google logo - that I cannot disable anywhere.

I also get some of those from manufacturer supplied "helpful crap" but I suppose we can't blame Google for those...

<comment><USER6> By stock I meant OEM. People on XDA call the OEM image stock.

<comment><USER7> In that case the "stock" Android is full of spam. From Google and from the manufacturer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I never understood the argument that Apple was a privacy-focused company, specifically because they enable so many companies that are the complete opposite. For example, I could use Facebook on a desktop browser which won't out-of-the-box have location services, bluetooth information, and contact lists available. By virtue of using an iOS device, you are more likely to provide far more information to companies like Facebook than you would be on a browser. Apple willingly provides APIs to apps to pull this information. This enablement this leads me to reasonably believe they don't actually care about privacy.

<comment><USER9> Browsers have had location access APIs across all operating systems for a while now. Chrome at least can surface Bluetooth and USB information to sites (not sure about Firefox, but I think it can too). The only thing that's missing on desktop browsers is contacts access APIs.

Putting that all aside, there exist legitimate uses for those APIs, and just because Facebook abused them doesn't mean that they shouldn't exist. Lack of those APIs wouldn't be seen as privacy friendliness, it'd be seen as a feature deficiency and would push people to other platforms.

It just means that the platform in question has to put reasonable limits on access ("Allow access only while app is open", "require permission again after X days", etc) and users need to be more discriminative as to which apps/sites they approve access for.

<comment><USER8> I think if you consider the amount of damage Facebook has done to society, it's clear we shouldn't be prioritizing the legitimate use cases for things like contact list access when weighing the negative externalities.

Oil, for example, is generally useful for automobiles and transportation. Should we completely ignore the climate consequences of using fuel since it makes getting around convenient? The pros have to be weighed with the cons. The marginal value of saving a couple minutes via functionality like contact list imports, or reading bluetooth data, is not worth the downsides that come with it.</comment></comment></comment>


Cash Squeeze at Tesla, SolarCity - <AUTHOR> http://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-faces-cash-squeeze-at-tesla-solarcity-1472687133 <comment><USER2> Tesla has a great credit facility backed by Goldman and Deutsche bank.

Unfortunately, those lenders just made Telsa amend their ABL (Asset backed loan) such that when the Solar City deal goes through Solar City will need to be firewalled off from Tesla for purposes of borrowing money.

Essentially the lenders have made Tesla agree that Solar city would not be a subsidiary of Telsa for purposes of borrowing on their ABL.

I've never seen this type of provision before and I dont' think Telsa expected it when they initiated the merger.

Solar City had to issue debt for an 18 month term at 6.5%. With today's markets those are almost loan shark terms. I think its telling that with so much cash sloshing around, Musk had to step in and buy so much of the issue.

With Tesla's credit rated in junk bond territory and both Solar City and Tesla needing large chunks of cash in the next year, it looks like Telsa is going to have to tap the equity markets again.

Hopefully the markets continue to believe in Musk. If not I'd expect Musk to be talking to Washington about a government backed loan.

Couple this cash crunch for two of his companies along with the Space X rocket explosion today, I can't imagine the amount of stress Musk is under right now!!

<comment><USER3> > _Solar City had to issue debt for an 18 month term at 6.5%_

HackerNews tends to rip on the "bankers" for deceptive practices during the mortgage crisis. Yet SolarCity is offering unsecured and untransferable bonds, directly to the public, and on the front page is comparing the available interest rates to savings accounts and GICs:

[https://solarbonds.solarcity.com/](https://solarbonds.solarcity.com/)

With the financial situation as you describe, there is _far_ more risk involved in buying these bonds than a savings account, so the appeal to the high rate of interest is not a fair comparison. I'm curious what people here think about this practice.

<comment><USER4> _untransferable bonds_

There's such a thing???

Sure enough, found with Google, and evidently they've been doing this for a couple of years: [https://solarbonds.solarcity.com/customer- agreement/](https://solarbonds.solarcity.com/customer-agreement/)

 _The Solar Bonds I purchase may not be listed or traded on any secondary market or exchange, and even if they are, they may not be actively traded. As a result, I should assume that I may have to hold the Solar Bonds until maturity. Also, because I am purchasing the Solar Bonds directly rather than through a broker or other financial intermediary, it may be more difficult for me to sell my Solar Bonds, even if a trading market is or becomes available._

I suppose if you view them as you should any crowdfunded thing, don't expect anything back, but you're hoping to help something you believe in, that's OK, but....

<comment><USER5> This is beginning to sound like a greener version of Enron.

<comment><USER6> Green that will be entirely in the red within 6-8 quarters.

<comment><USER7> It's already very in the red, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Ouch. I hope that things pull through. He is taking so much risk on with the SpaceX program, Solar City, and Tesla. I feel like it is a crazy risky bet which will either pay off very well or leave him totally broke.

<comment><USER9> Ever since hearing about him, I've worried he may end up like this guy :$

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Durant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_C._Durant)

<comment><USER10> Wow, there have to be some investment banker of the year awards for whomever convinced him and Rockefeller to bail them out after it was blatantly obvious the entire market was on fire.

It's telling that when it happened again in 2007 the problem had grown so big that not even sucker billionaires could help, they had to be bailed out by the federal government. This time the sucker was the American people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Fun fact: Musk has said that he came up with the idea for SolarCity at burning man.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#cite_note-KQED- Sol...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk#cite_note-KQED- SolarCity-102)

</comment><comment><USER12> Good short potential on Musk's bonds.

</comment><comment><USER13> This is a crazy idea, but why cash cow Apple lend some money to Elon & Co.? It should be a win-win situation (Apple takes a share of Tesla and perhaps tapping into Tesla's core EV tech/batteries production capability) and Tesla get to alleviate the cash situation.

Ultimately, Tesla and Apple must join forces in order to advance / accelerate the sustainable transportation.

<comment><USER14> If Apple really wanted Tesla's assets they should wait until the 11th hour and swoop in with a rescue package, or let them slip into bankruptcy and buy up the assets individually.

<comment><USER13> Perhaps that's too late?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The Tesla Power Wall is designed to store electricity generated by Solar City's solar panels.

The Tesla Power Wall and the Tesla battery pack for the car are very similar except one is larger and goes on the car and the other is smaller and goes on the wall.

Solar power is not useful without having a way to store it.

It is amazing how difficult it is for people to see the connection between these systems and that these are complementary products that are part of the same vision.

</comment><comment><USER16> Wall Street doesn't like long term Capital Expenditures. They can only see to the next quarter.

For proof, go look at railroad companies. Same thing. Everyone knows the railroads will have periods of very high CapEx, yet they still only care about the current quarter.

These articles are common for any company doing massive infrastructure projects. Raising capital is a business decision. Sure, he could wait a few years until he has the money to build the infrastructure (megafactory) he needs, but that's not how you grow a company at the speed it needs to.

Also, I didn't read the article, I refuse to visit WSJ.

<comment><USER5> Refusing to hear out opinions you expect to disagree with isn't healthy. I don't care for the WSJ's biases either, but I'm going to at least look at their arguments.

<comment><USER17> Which biases are you talking about? The right-wing bias of the editorial pages or the left-wing bias for the news part of the paper? According to this study, the WSJ's news section is more left-wing than the NYT and other newspapers. See p. 24. [http://web.archive.org/web/20061128014117/http://www.polisci...](http://web.archive.org/web/20061128014117/http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.pdf)</comment></comment></comment>


Women and STEM occupations: Retention rates and reasons for leaving - <AUTHOR> http://journalistsresource.org/studies/society/gender-society/women-stem-occupations-retention-rates

<comment><USER2> [http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in- science](http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science)</comment>


Is Swift 3 worth it? - <AUTHOR> http://indiedeepcode.tumblr.com/post/147598583726/is-swift-3-worth-it <comment><USER2> I'm hating how complex Swift is and wondering what real benefit there is. I just read about how the compiler has difficulties with some expressions and how the constraint solver in the type checker can take 15s(?) to resolve some easy expressions. Oh no...</comment>