Skinny fat founder strips for launch of startup - <AUTHOR> http://www.bodyhack.com/blog/skinny-fat-founder-strips-new-company-1557 <comment><USER2> Impressive, but who wants to look at some half naked dude when you could look at this:

      +</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-+  +</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-+
      |         BEFORE          |  |          AFTER          |
      |                         |  |                         |
      |   Lines of Code: 33,467 |  |   Lines of Code: 11,261 |
      |        Bug Rate: .037%  |  |        Bug Rate: .013%  |
      |  Daily visitors: 13,239 |  |  Daily visitors: 59,283 |
      | Conversion rate: 3.2%   |  | Conversion rate: 6.9%   |
      |   Daily revenue: $3,932 |  |   Daily revenue: $9,321 |
      |   HN Front Page: 0      |  |   HN Front Page: 22     |
      |                         |  |                         |
      +</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-+  +</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>-+

<comment><USER3> I don't understand the relevance, can you please provide some context?

<comment><USER4> "We're all entrepreneurs here and we all know what actually matters, so if you had just told us about your business and what you did to grow it, you could have skipped the half naked picture."

Which, agreed.

<comment><USER3> Fair enough. The thing is though, he posted it on the BodyHack blog. We may all be entrepreneurs here, but are all of their readers? I'd be cautious in judging him too much.

<comment><USER4> That is a very good point. Thank you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Julian, there are quite a bit of typos on your site. Copy with typos doesn't lend credibility. Would you like some assistance with proofreading?

Congratulations on your work, and I think the site is a good idea.

I wonder: perhaps since you're offering your site as an alternative to broscience [as linked] you could use phrases like "we believe" or "it is theorized" or support your nutritional claims with the science behind them.

For instance you say that it is a good idea to supplement omega fats, despite getting plenty of them in the diet. There are those who would disagree and say that as long as you're maintaining ~1:1-1:3 ratios of o3:o6 you're a-ok.

<comment><USER6> I wouldn't normally comment on this, but since you're offering proofreading services... :-)

"Julian, there are quite a bit of typos on your site."

Maybe you meant:

"Julian, there are quite a few typos on your site."

The phrase "quite a bit of" refers to something you measure, not something you count. And it would never be worded "there _are_ quite a bit of..."

So you might say:

"There are quite a few eggs in that basket."

"There is quite a bit of snow on that mountain."

(edit with one more thought...)

One good way to help keep this straight is to remove the word "quite":

"There are a few eggs in that basket."

"There is a bit of snow on that mountain."

<comment><USER7> I think this comment is unnecessary in its current form - do you have anything to add regarding typos on the website?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Funny.. InternetBrands was inquiring about my health affiliate site around 2011 as well. But I made the opposite decision: not to sell for high 6 figures. A month later, Panda happened and traffic dropped 90%. Ouch =(

BodyHacks looks cool, reminds me of what Tim Ferriss was doing for 4 Hour Body.

<comment><USER9> For those of us who don't know, what's Panda?

<comment><USER10> A change to Google's ranking algorithm that was rolled out last year: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Panda>

<comment><USER9> I see, thank you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> For those of us too .. ahem .. cheap to cough up the dough for a meal plan and an exercise plan, are there any free options? I'd like to get back into shape again, the winter months were brutal to the waistline.

<comment><USER12> A lot of people will have a lot of advice, but the simple truth is that the only thing that works is diet and exercise.

Being in shape is a lifestyle issue. It's not something that happens overnight or that you can do in one go, it requires a fundamental change in how you approach living. I'm not trying to discourage you, but to steer you away from the "you can fix it quick with no effort" snake oil that abounds.

My advice:

1\. Become your own expert. Learn how your body works, how nutrition works, how exercise works, how ... I've found that reddit's fitness community [1] has some great places to start. There's a ridiculous amount of good information out there. (Protip: most of the good info can cite studies, less than half of the bad even bothers)

2\. Make it fun. Learn new recipes, try activities you've always wanted to do, do _anything_ but force yourself to change. After a while the causation between "not fun" exercises or diet changes and their benefits will sink into your brain and make things easier, but to start if it sucks you'll probably quit.

3\. Don't agonize over the scale. Your body weight fluctuates throughout the day and various activities. It's not uncommon to see a single day +/- 6lb change _just in the water your body is holding_. Aim for _feeling_ better (or _looking_ better, if that's your goal) not a number on a scale. Weigh yourself when you start, then come back after three months.

4\. Be persistent. You're talking about a lifestyle change here. These don't happen overnight. You'll probably spend a long time being disappointed at apparent non-progress then wake up one day wondering when things changed. Do your homework and learn what you need to do, then start doing it and trust that the results will come. In a world where we can use our phones to identify and buy the song that's playing right now, results in this come agonizingly slow.

[1] <http://www.reddit.com/help/faqs/Fitness>

<comment><USER13> > Weigh yourself when you start, then come back after three months.

Dissenting voice here:

As somewhat of a numbers junkie, weighing myself every day is absolutely crucial. I know the numbers fluctuate (if you weigh yourself every day, you can't help but learn that), but they can give you a much-needed reality check. More importantly, I got myself addicted to taking data, and the most precise scale I had available was at the gym ... so I went to the gym.

You'll definitely be able to see yourself trending downwards.

<comment><USER14> Isn't the circumference of the waistline a better measure?

<comment><USER13> I started out pretty fat; I think my weight was changing faster. Probably as the cube of my waistline. :p Also, my girlfriend at the time (a nurse) informed me that a lot of weight loss in the beginning is visceral fat, and won't necessarily manifest as shrinking dimensions, but will make you healthier.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I found that for me personally, getting fit is not a problem, it's keeping the weight off is the issue. Sure, the 12 week program looks impressive, and I have no doubt that if closely monitor everything, providing details of every single meal and exact exercise you have to do, anyone with enough willpower can achieve the goal. But what's next?

<comment><USER16> This is why I eschew any type of program that isn't sustainable. I'd rather be in fairly decent shape all the time by making sound decisions in terms of diet and exercise than be a glistening mound of underwear-worthy male model. Eating clean with a few bodyweight exercises and about 5,000 steps/day sprinkled into the week usually does the trick.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> As far as nutrition & supplements, examine.com is a great resource that dissects various studies and presents information in an easy to digest fashion

E.g. Fish Oil: <http://examine.com/supplements/Fish+Oil/>

<comment><USER18> Also a useful FAQ section: <http://examine.com/faq/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I really really struggle with proper eating when it comes to my workouts. I'm a vegetarian and have been all my life. But I eat so much crap.

I would say that 70%~ of my diet is made up of carbs. It's really ridiculous. I also find that I usually don't have my first meal of the day until about 4-5pm. Which is usually a plain cheese sandwhich, a pizza or home cooked noodles with vegetables.

Being a vegetarian and disliking cooking is a pretty tough deal! Ha.

Also julian, I tried to email you from your website, but your contact form is broken, after Googling for 5 minutes to find your contact information I couldn't find anything for bodyhack. Do you have an actual email? (Finding this on your site was impossible).

<comment><USER20> I don't think carbs are necessarily bad. Vegetarianism was long deemed healthy (maybe still), and I don't see how low carb should be possible for vegertarians (if you have ideas, please tell me).

I have a non-proven theory: perhaps humans can adapt do different diets, not only different environments. Or actually in former times the environment pretty much dictated the diets. So if humans were good at settling in diverse environments, it practically follows that they are good at adapting to different diets. So maybe not the modern 90% junk diet (sugars and white flour), but the difference between low and high carb might not be so important.

Also not sure why pizza tends to be condemned so much. Sure, if you buy a pizza at a restaurant, it is probably soaked in fat and covered with cheap cheese. But if I make one at home, it tends to have a lot of vegetables on it, and the amount of cheese doesn't have to be excessive. It seems at least healthier than the average cheese sandwich.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Very cool idea! I've been wanting to create something similar since reading 4 hour body (but am no where near proficient at building stuff yet!). One thing think iwould be really useful and would help help the site stay relevant into the future would be to add some type of genetic relevance component. Users could upload their profile from 23andme (or other site) and compare effectiveness of various methods across varying alleles. There is a really cool android app (diygenomics) that would give you a base for health and fitness related markers)

</comment><comment><USER22> I've just done a 12-week body transformation course here with personal trainers (5 days a week) and its amazing what results you can get. Through diet coaching, weights and cardio tailored for me I have loads more energy and look great. The key now is not to slip back into old ways so they are doing another programme about maintaining everything and are moving more into yoga.

One thing - on your video the guy says $10/month but you are charging £10/month.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sorry about that we had a change of heart at the last minute, and decided to target the UK, as it's the smaller market, and get some initial data before "launching" to the US.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm a little disappointed to find out that it is £10 a month per plan. The messaging is not clear that I am buying one plan and not just access to the website as a whole.

Why would I want to keep paying £10 a month for the same plan? I'd just pay once, download it and print it out and be gone. Only reason I'd stick around is to see new plans.

</comment><comment><USER24> Received a coupon code for a free month, but was immediately charged anyway.

Tried to email the address that sent the coupon code, and it failed.

Tried to use the contact form on the site, and it failed (it says I need to fill out the word in the image, but there's no CAPTCHA on the page).

Not a great first impression.

</comment><comment><USER25> bought a plan, out of curiosity. while I don't doubt the results, the website is quite un-friendly for beginners.

1\. There is just one line, saying "if you don't know what this means, just go to bodybuilding.com and search for it". It'd take a couple of minutes to directly link the exercises to their video pages, and save a lot of time and frustration for the users.

2\. As someone pointed out, quite a few minor spelling/grammatical mistakes, even on the FAQ page

3\. "We will provide fitness plan that can completed at home with zero equipment." - doesn't seem like it

I'm not trying to be negative or anything, just trying to make it a bit more user friendly. The website itself is very straightforward, so it would be nice if the founders can do these minor tweaks.

</comment><comment><USER26> my first thought was: how is this different from all those ebook merchants that promise you become the terminator in 7 days but then by skimming through [http://www.bodyhack.com/men/six-pack-and-11-5-body-fat- in-12...](http://www.bodyhack.com/men/six-pack-and-11-5-body-fat-in-12-weeks) I actually found it to be pretty reasonable.

To be perfectly honest though I suppose this only appealing to men with the advertised body shape (naturally skinny) and Julian with 68.5 kg doesn't look very healthy or good to me but I'm not a woman and to each his own so please don't take this as a personal insult. I figure some critical feedback is better then none.

<comment><USER27> Julian looks athletic in the final pictures, like a distance runner or triathlete. As a distance runner I have a similar body type too.

At the gym you'll see a wide array of body types. Lean and mean, all the way up to muscular and bulky, and all things in-between. Body builders are HUGE compared to me and can lift far more than I can, but I can absolutely "destroy" them on a treadmill. You tend to discover the thing you like doing, specialize in it, and dominate it. What you choose to do partially dictates what you'll end up looking like.

<comment><USER26> yes I completely agree and understand what you mean because I know people who look athletic and don't only have incredible stamina but also unbelievable strength. What I meant to say is that I don't want (and probably can't) look that athletic because I'm more of the bulky type (hate running, enjoy lifting weights). But I am sure many others do and many women and men find that attractive. I'm the last one to tell you how you should look and if you feel comfortable with how you look and feel that's awesome and you should stick to it. I just wanted to say that personally I did not find the end result appealing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I'm also interested in how to maintain body shape once you hit your 12-week goal. It seems like the exercise plan might get modified at that point. Do you have any plans to address that?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi dbalatero,

Yes we will provide a maintenance plan. We will make that clearer on the site.

Thanks for the feedback.

Julian.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Do you always blog and submit posts in the third person? Just kidding - congrats on what looks like a good idea. Look out, Tony Horton.

</comment><comment><USER30> how do we know he did it just by following the program...and not by hiring a personal trainer and a personal chef...or by simply doing 4 hours of exercise every day?

since the other co-founder is a personal trainer...I'd imagine it was a bit more hands on, than just using a website.

there is a lot of financial incentive here to improve the shown results

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm getting an error when I sign up saying that my email address isn't valid...?

</comment><comment><USER31> First thing I noticed is that they ripped off the Apple-Command key design for their logo.

Couldn't find anything about copyright/trademark on the symbol ... anyone know if it was used prior to Apple (or is in the public domain)?

</comment><comment><USER32> There is no way those body fat percentages are correct.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Noja,

What make you say that? We were extremely careful when measuring body fat. We used the 4 point test, using body fat calipers. It is seen as a reliable test.

Regards,

Julian.

<comment><USER32> My bathroom scales measure body fat, and they read 10% for me. A friend of mine's scales put him at 20%.

I don't look like him on the right, and my friend doesn't look like him on the left...

<comment><USER33> Bathroom scales cannot reliably measure body fat % from what I know. They try to measure impedence and it is affected by many factors - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioelectrical_impedance_analysi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioelectrical_impedance_analysis)

10% is an extremely low body fat %. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_fat_percentage#Typical_bod...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_fat_percentage#Typical_body_fat_amounts)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Question for founder: do you get a better user response from highlighting your own progress pics, or Michael's?

I would imagine most people look more like Michael than you (I wouldn't even call you skinnyfat, just skinny) - do you get a better response from people who want to go from decent condition to ultra fit like your 'after' pics, or from overweight people who are looking to get un-fat?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Carguy,

It is fair question. The simple answer is... I don't know. The site only launched today. We have a range of body types going through challenges but I was the first to finish the 12 weeks. Michael has also finished but we haven't got all his data into the site yet.

But I think you are right, there will be more people bigger than me who what to get in shape, than people my size. But we will just have to wait and see.

Thanks,

Julian.

<comment><USER13> I've always found it a little depressing how many strength / fitness programs want to take the skinny, flexible guy and turn him into the Hulk, instead of taking the fat, inflexible guy and turning him into ... something other than fat and inflexible.</comment></comment></comment>


Reply All Podcast Covers Travails of Picturelife.com - The Picture Taker - <AUTHOR> https://gimletmedia.com/episode/71-the-picture-taker/ <comment><USER2> Maybe this will help somebody: [https://github.com/morphar/rescuelife](https://github.com/morphar/rescuelife)</comment>


Show HN: I created a Backend as a Service platform for .Net - <AUTHOR> http://iknode.com

<comment><USER2> Very cool. Two things come to mind:

1) Unity3d game developers are primarily building their games in C# for web/downloadable/mobile and may be worth looking into: <http://forum.unity3d.com/>

2) Check out PlayerIO, although they're a multiplayer backend there is significant crossover - your logic lives on their servers in C#: <http://playerio.com/>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you very much, I really appreciate it. I will definitely look into unit3d and playerio.</comment></comment>


Improve your workflow using the JavaScript console - <AUTHOR> https://medium.freecodecamp.org/how-you-can-improve-your-workflow-using-the-javascript-console-bdd7823a9472 <comment><USER2> This is an interesting article to me. I'm professionally a scientist but this year I've set about to helping my partner start her business/website. I have a CSCI undergrad and a strong basis of computational/coding skills.

I find, in trying web development [I'm using Django], that everything is very simple and clear _except_ for the debugging and problem solving. The tools are simple and the way you glue things together is simple but debugging things throwa you into the unholy mess that is how web apps are actually smashed together. I spend 80 percent of my webdev time trying to figure out how to figure out my problem. The rest of my time is crazy productive. If anyone could point me to ressources for people skilled in all things coding/NIX to get these sorts of troubleshooting skills, I would be grateful forever.

<comment><USER3> If you're talking about JavaScript, have you tried the GUI debugging tools built into each browser?

[https://developers.google.com/web/tools/chrome- devtools/java...](https://developers.google.com/web/tools/chrome- devtools/javascript/)

There's also a lot of features for viewing and experimenting with CSS.

[https://developers.google.com/web/tools/chrome- devtools/css/](https://developers.google.com/web/tools/chrome-devtools/css/)

Disclaimer: I wrote those docs. Firefox and Safari have similar tools if you prefer those browsers. I'm just not as familiar with their stuff.

<comment><USER4> :D I just saw that I recommended your video ;-)

Great work man.

<comment><USER3> Small world. Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Last time I played with those console methods (about 2 years ago), I had to find out, that their cross-browser compatibility wasn't very good.

Does anybody know if that changed?

</comment><comment><USER5> A console is an interface intrinsically driven by text and data. So it's a shame to see yet another article where all code samples are, presumably, screenshots. Search engines can't index them, readers can't search through the page for them, and blind people can't access them with a screen reader.

</comment><comment><USER6> I can definitely see how this is useful for enhancing testing and test reporting purposes. Very nice article.</comment>


Twitter: No, really, we're sorry we sold your security info for lots od cash - <AUTHOR> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/09/twitter_data_leak/ <comment><USER2> From Twitter's original information and ads website: [https://help.twitter.com/en/information-and- ads](https://help.twitter.com/en/information-and-ads)

> We're very sorry this happened and are taking steps to make sure we don't > make a mistake like this again.

Well, this just means that you really can't take Twitter or any internet company seriously when the mention the buzzwords 'privacy' and 'security'.

They might as well have been sarcastic about this 'apology'.

</comment><comment><USER3> Title misspelled; "lots _of_ cash"</comment>


Show HN: Stairway takes meetings to iPhone - <AUTHOR>

Having received a magnificent feedback and plenty of excited users earlier this week with Stairway launch on HN
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4127094
we're continuing on our quest to turn live meetings into online collaboration. To make Stairway even more accessible, we are launching a FREE  companion iPhone app today
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stairway/id532590412
You need an account at http://stairwayapp.com to use it. If you give it a shot, we'd love to hear your feedback. <comment><AUTHOR> Clickable Web

<http://stairwayapp.com>

and iTunes

<http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/stairway/id532590412></comment>


Welcome, school 42. Seriously - <AUTHOR> https://www.holbertonschool.com/school-42-welcome <comment><AUTHOR> I want to add, that I did not understand all the rage against school 42 in a previous post. Those guys basically offer free Education. This is awesome. We are VERY happy to see another school in the US using this peer-learning and project-based approach to train software engineers. When we launched Holberton School last year we knew there would more school like this coming to the US, but we are glad that school 42 is the one launching today! Congratulations to the whole team 42!

<comment><USER2> no, it's not free.</comment></comment>


When should behaviour outside a community have consequences inside it? - <AUTHOR> https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/50099.html <comment><USER4> Boundaries are imho critical to give structure to society. The advances in technology and more so the pervasiveness and persistence of communication is eroding the previous boundaries between groups, places and time.

Past transgressions now have an impact today often way beyond the statues of limitation. In most of these discussions the reason these statues exist are ignored. Discussions in one place affect another place. Behavior that is questionable in a classroom becomes national news. Postings in a closed online forum of sexual nature affects standing in an online collaboration community working on software.

When boundaries are torn down cultures clash. Some of it may be healthy. But without boundaries would there be culture?

<comment><USER5> > Boundaries are imho critical to give structure to society.

Looking at history I would even say that boundaries, as in the "need" to give a superior moral position to a favored class, whether an economic class, intellectuals, a military class, or priesthood, was always where these boundaries were. The thing you can't see is that your/our "boundaries" are no different.

And every single time, those boundaries turned out to be, not "for trade" (e.g. the Roman Empire), "for the military" (e.g. the second Islamic dynasty), intellectuals (e.g. the French revolution - the first part, or Communism in Eastern Europe) or "for morality" (e.g. the West in the middle ages). I mean, I'm sure there was a period of, say, a decade, where they actually did what it said on the label. It never lasted.

Every single time, those "boundaries" served to guarantee the comfort of a favored class. Firstly, to safeguard their positions of power and comfort, their fortunes, but later even their ideas and egos.

The real boundary we are wanting to impose is that "we are right".

And it's real, real simple. There is a tiny little issue:

We

Are

Wrong

Boundaries do impose structure. The structure does not change, and the world does. That's fundamentally why the boundaries are wrong and the structure will not hold.

I do not know how or where exactly we are wrong, but we are wrong (although I have some ideas: any 5 year old, old enough to talk intelligently, but not old enough to be assimilated yet, will tell you when you walk with them through any city what we are terribly wrong about. There's plenty, I might add).

And that sucks. If it turns out that we are most catastrophically wrong about a moral issue, it will suck REAL bad. And that's happened before. Plenty of times.

It is funny how you see the bay area aging. When we started out, most were in our late teens, early twenties at best. And of course we all felt the same: society is VERY wrong. In all sorts of ways. For instance, women are not different, and certainly not inferior. We KNEW that 20 years ago. But now we're 40, and we feel that, dammit, we're right. And these kids, who seem to prefer economic gains over social issues. Lazy bastards !

And, like the rich 30 years ago, we've decided (whilst having pretty much every creature comfort we like) that moral issues (that just happen to keep our place in society safe and secure) are _real_ important. And these upstart youngsters (who do not in fact enjoy many of our creature comforts), they're bad, mmmkay ! Dammit ! They MUST be stopped.

They will, of course, defeat us. Nothing can stop them.

And they will clobber more than some of our ideas.

And, they will abandon some of our morals.

The thing is, this is a good and healthy thing to happen.

<comment><USER6> The young aren't always right. Respect for due process, and freedom of speech, are absolutely not values that should be abandoned, even if it seems many of the young are in favor of that. I say this as one of the young.

What are the ideas and morals that you think will be abandoned?

<comment><USER5> > What are the ideas and morals that you think will be abandoned?

Well, for example, certainly authoritarianism has been on the rise. When it comes to democratic ideals like separation of legislative, executive and judicial powers there seems to be zero interest from younger people (see the Poland, Hungary, Austria and Czech situations). Also, when talking to Chinese, I notice that there is very little interest in making China democratic.

Freedom of speech has a very bad rap outside of America, mostly undeserved. Now I get that this is hard to see in the middle of the US, but 7.1 billion people don't have freedom of speech (roughly) and 300 million do. The thing is, those 7.1 billion mostly don't want it.

Even in America people don't uphold it very well imho. Obviously in the Bay Area high profile events have shown that private and, to some extent, government actions against free speech are tolerated.

So I think that freedom of speech and generally freedom will be abandoned to an extent. Why ? Simply because that has advantages.

<comment><USER7> > Now I get that this is hard to see in the middle of the US, but 7.1 billion > people don't have freedom of speech (roughly) and 300 million do. The thing > is, those 7.1 billion mostly don't want it.

Yes, as one of those poor 7.1 billion, I can barely contain my envy. Now let's have a look at the ranking of the US in, say, the World Press Freedom Index of 2017 ([https://rsf.org/en/ranking](https://rsf.org/en/ranking)). Could you please explain why the US, being (supposedly) the only country in the world that has freedom of speech, hasn't even made it in the top 40 of that ranking?

I don't see this obsession with America-style "freedom of speech". Sure, you can't go out in the streets and yell that you think that '<minority> are subhuman scum that deserve to be rounded up and transported to extermination camps' in most places (although I imagine that won't make you very popular in the US either, even if would technically be legal), but if you live in the nicer parts of, say, Europe, you won't go bankrupt when you need a hospital, you won't be living in a country with one of the highest incarceration rates in the world, you don't have a two-party system, your vote isn't worth more or less depending on where you live, etc. Also what's this "free speech zone" thing?

Freedom of speech isn't black and white, there are many shades of gray. If everybody feels they can speak their mind except for some people advocating genocide... well suffice to say I won't be joining Evelyn Hall in her fight to the death.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is a question worth discussing. But I'm not sure I like the implicit assumption that a "community" is a discrete entity entirely divorced from all other such entities. If you're contemplating a person's activities outside a particular social group, you aren't asking "does this affect my social group?", but rather "what impact does this have on society at large?" I can't see that it's controversial to suggest that someone may act in one context in a way that should have consequences for their activities in another context - we quite happily accept, for instance, that a violent drunk ought not to be permitted to teach children, even if they have never been drunkenly violent towards children. I don't see that a software development project should be any different from any other subset of human society in this respect.

<comment><USER9> Software development projects are somewhat different in that they frequently include a large number of people from very disparate cultural backgrounds and little in-person social contact. The lack of the sort of social cohesion that we see in more traditional social groups is part of the reason that open source projects are increasingly adopting explicit behavioural guidelines, but the risk there becomes that those guidelines are considered the totality of what should be taken into account when determining whether someone does more harm than good within a community. Coming up with a more formalised set of considerations for external behaviour would help there.

<comment><USER8> I don't think this is peculiar to software development though. The same is true of discussion fora, gaming organisations, multinational businesses - <USER2> extent to which it's an issue in the modern connected world is greater, sure, but it's not a direct result of wider communication. I'm willing to bet it was an issue thousands of years ago in busy trading centres too.

edit: this is an interesting aside: "Coming up with a more formalised set of considerations for external behaviour would help there." Isn't this to some extent what religions have been trying to do for millennia?

<comment><USER9> The same is true of those other groups, but the goals and incentive structures are somewhat different there. The prevalence of codes of conduct in open source projects and relative rarity of them in other online groups suggests that there's some sort of difference in how people view them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I think having online anonymity and a reasonable ability to create pseudonyms to keep your communities separate is important and often overlooked. I think it's not OK for one community to be the moral authority over aspects of ones life, most especially a community in which you are volunteering and contributing in good standing.

<comment><USER11> As with a lot of things, I believe in a balance. I agree that anonymity in a lot of areas are crucial; oppressive regimes, whistle-blowing, private/sexual preferences, whatever have you.

But as we've seen in the last year, complete anonymity and untraceability everywhere can have bad consequences; astro-turfing, smurfing, attention- ddos:ing, FUD, anti-net neutrality-comment identity theft.

In some of these cases a central e-ID (which a lot of nations have) could have mitigated those issues, in others, not so.

Ideas should live on their own merit, in which case the identity of the source is irrelevant, but (pardon my French) idiots make the case that logic and merit of ideas don't take center stage. In those cases I believe it's kind of relevant to know if you're buying into group think that is 80% bots, 5% trolls, 5% adversarial agents, etc.

Anonymity is one solution to the problem of being able to keep dissenting opinions, but a solution with severe side effects. Transparency with a strong protection of freedom of ideas is another route.

I guess to put it succinctly: I don't need to know the names or faces of the people I carry conversations with, only that they're real, unique people. It shouldn't matter, but recent history shows otherwise.

<comment><USER10> Great perspective. Without question there are definitely risks that anonymity introduces. But there is an effective tyranny of free expression when parties are forced to use their names.

The protections of liberty afforded on paper don't always play out in real life. In theory we have protections of free association, freedom of religion, free speech and we're all entitled to equal protection under the law - <USER3> doesn't always play out.

Too often mob rule has resulted in oppression of dissenting views and oppression of classes of people. Privacy, private communication, anonymous communication and pseudonymous communications are all essential for healthy society and discourse and cannot be written off because some would use them for nefarious purposes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> A growing challenge that communities face is where an activist minority act against a member based on an agenda that is not representative of the larger community yet influences as if it were.

<comment><USER13> Opal gate is the canonical example of this:

[https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941](https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941)

It's interesting the "complainer" ended up being hired by github then fired from the same github.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Problem with these sorts of discussions is that they torture the meaning of the word "community." Most of these aren't.

Rephrase as: when should your public reputation among one set of people affect your public reputation among another set of people? When should that latter effect result in consequences?

And then the answer is obvious: whenever the latter set of people find your public behavior to be unwelcome, regardless of which context you chose to unveil it in.

<comment><USER15> I see your point but you didn't really tackle the problem at hand.

To detach the situation from current feelings, let's take a time trip back to hypothetical year ~1975.

Let's say it's illegal to register a NGO, company or anything that has a rule of "no sexual group X allowed". Now let's say that there is some guy who is absolutely brilliant at playing the violin, but has at some point allegedly done some homosexual approach to straight guy. Which any gay would have just brushed away, but now it was taken as harassment.

We have obviously created a situation where it's impossible for that violinist to take part in any orchestra. No "only gays & women orchesta" is allowed by law. Society completely wastes that human resource. Some male musicians somewhere possibly have slightly better work security. But the cost is that millions of people never hear the recordings of that great violinist.

You have to pick:

A. Allow organizations to be completely self selecting. This would have a set of short term problems and it's currently not kosher at all.

B. Allow alleged transgressors to somehow wipe their record clear. Seems practically impossible during internet age and click headlines.

C. Force people to be cool about people who have allegedly transgressed in some way in some other social setting. But now you lose productivity of whole teams, not just some individuals here and there.

D. Lose a lot of human resources. And probably for petty reasons. If allegation is enough, you can destroy too competitors easily. As shown by the red scare, Stalins purges, etc.

This was originally a case about a programmer allegedly groping some women. Seems like if you could start a company of "former sexual harassers inc", you could soon hire lots of splendid talent dirt cheap. Then you just need to somehow hide the origin of the products being made to the consumers. But soon even that won't matter much if there is anything to be learned from the music industry.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> "The private is political" comes to mind...

It used to be that you interacted almost exclusively face-to-face, within a small community. One of the better consequences was a sort of instant feedback loop, where your actions that hurt others were quickly reflected back onto you: abandoned your ailing grandmother? The local grocer will stop giving you credit.

These were social feedback mechanisms. They have the benefit of being much more subtle than the criminal justice system, and kicking in much earlier.

It's ridiculous how some in the tech community pretend these mechanisms don't exist, or that they should not exist: every time you have decided who to invite to your birthday party, or who to sit with at lunch, you have taken such considerations into account.

People are social animals. They use social cues to reward beneficial actions, and punish even slight misdeeds. This is necessary to establish standards of behavior, or basic human decency.

There should be limits to this process, the most important of which is _time_. No one should be forced to reveal to his neighbors that he is a "sex offender", ten years after drunkenly taking a piss in a public park. Nor should your teenage shenanigans be the top hit in google for eternity.

But standing a front of a synagogue on a Saturday, with a torch, a gun, a swastika flag? Yeah, you better believe your friends and coworkers will look funny at you come Monday.

<comment><USER17> But what if my teenage shenanigans were really really good? Can I keep the top spot for eternity then?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> SATSQ.

Behavior outside a community should have consequences inside it when it has consequences inside it.

If your behavior outside of a community causes an uproar and crisis inside the community when it becomes known, _it has already had a consequence inside the community_. It will already have future ramifications. All you can do at that point is decide whether you want the future ramifications to include a commendation, condemnation or silence from the community.

Communities are not hermetically sealed environments. In my opinion it is silly and childish to pretend they are.

<comment><USER19> > when it becomes known

When "it becomes known" is a matter of one person going on a moral crusade to destroy the other person's reputation and position because of something about them, wholly unrelated to the project, which they personally dislike--is it still valid for there to be "consequences" within the community?

If so, it seems like only a matter of time for all of us, because surely all of us do things or hold opinions that someone else in a community we participate in would find unacceptable. Therefore, all that is required for anyone to destroy anyone else is to "cause an uproar and crisis" about them.

What will you say when someone causes an uproar and crisis about you?

<comment><USER18> I'm not going to say it doesn't suck.

Unrequited love sucks. Losing an election sucks. Being kicked out of a community sucks. Losing your job sucks.

Doesn't matter if you "deserve" it or not. Still sucks.

Maybe it sucks more when there's malice in the revelation, than if someone just sent an email to the wrong mailing list or if two people unexpectedly ran into each other somewhere neither expected the other to be.

But the bell has been rung. What do you want people to do, to treat their feelings like jurors, "that evidence has been obtained improperly, you are instructed to disregard it."?

<comment><USER19> > What do you want people to do, to treat their feelings like jurors, "that > evidence has been obtained improperly, you are instructed to disregard it."?

You seem to be saying that the feelings of anyone in a community should serve as a veto on anyone else's membership in the community. Am I understanding you correctly?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I'm going to upvote this, even though it's another in a long line of "I don't understand classical liberalism or the roots of our modern secular society" posts by various authors, both famous and not.

At the heart of a lot of this is the simple question: is our larger world supposed to be one big social group? Some folks think yes. For those folks, if you have a small community, it's a legitimate question as to how much "control" you should have on members when they are outside that community.

To me this is an answered question and the answer is no, small groups and large groups of people are completely different things. Trying to shoe-horn experiences and ideas about one group into the other group leads to nothing but heartache and disappointment.

But since so many folks are struggling so much, it's a conversation that needs to continue for a while. Hopefully it will lead somewhere positive.

ADD: I will, however, admit to having much frustration watching my tech friends struggle so much with concepts that should have been part of their early education. Speaking humorously, I reserve the right to buy an inflatable copy of "On Liberty" and start beating a few of them about the head with it if things don't change.

</comment><comment><USER21> The risky assumption seems to be "we're the ones with all the power, and we'll only use that power to punish people who deserve it".

Also, just for fun, google "Ted Ts'o".

<comment><USER22> AFAICT, the guy went a little too far out of his way to say that lots of rape accusations are fake? But the guy still has job and status, right? Just some social ostracism?

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Behavior outside a community should very little consequences inside of it. Of course there are some extreme cases where this might be a problem however those cases are extremely rare and should not generally be used for the basis of creating a Code of conduct or rule set

The wider political climate in world today is making have to be that simple.

While the article talks about more extreme cases like actual physical sexual assault, today far far far too many communities are using simple political disagreement and criticism and framing that as "harassment" using that "harassment" as method to remove any political dissenters from their ranks

I have seen it attempted (some times with great success) in several open source projects.

Personally I dislike the very concept of Codes of Conduct and I generally oppose most of the terms in many of the more modern Code of Conduct being pushed forward, likely as a result of my very libertarian political views. That said Codes of Conducts (should a community or project adopt them) should only be enforced based on actions WITH IN that community and/or toward people that are IN THAT community.

Not generalized actions of people taken in other communities with a different set of conventions and rules.

Code of Conduct should be seen as a contract of Behavior that all people agree to when voluntary associating with the community to treat all other MEMBERS of that community based on that code of conduct, it should not apply to conduct when interacting with people not a part of that community and thus never agreed to the code of conduct.

<comment><USER24> I completely agree, the code of conduct has been used multiple times as a trojan horse in the sense that it only contains things nobody could reasonably disagree with (because who would not want a welcoming environment), only to then be used to shun /outcast people based on views particularly on gender and diversity. This is one of the issues Sam Altman referred to in his blog that simply cannot be talked about in Silicon Valley currently.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I think this article doesn't take a broad enough view of the question. As stated, it's a very large (and non-trivial) question.

For example, as stated, the question includes questions like: - Should America care if somebody is convicted of a crime by a foreign nation?

\- Should a school care if a candidate to be a teacher was discovered viewing child pornography?

\- Should a job care if/why you got fired from your last job?

\- Should you care why your ex's last relationship failed?

The answer to all of these is obviously "depends on the specifics." It's tempting to draw hard boundaries so as to prevent people from weaponizing politics. Unfortunately, I just don't think hard-boundaries are coherent here.

</comment><comment><USER26> There's a difference between behavior and speech, though it can become a fuzzy line (is a large donation behavior or speech?).

One thing some of the comments have touched on is the notion of "beyond the pale" \- a term that somewhat ironically (for this discussion) refers to occurrences outside the bounds of British law. There are opinions that fall outside the standards of decency, and this can, legitimately, make organizations reluctant to work with some people.

Many issue positions, over time, can go from widely accepted, to controversial, to widely discredited, to beyond the pale, essentially and uncontroversially indecent. If this is the case, it's almost certain that we're going through this process right now. Unfortunately, there is also a strong political tendency to scold and smear and be as uncharitable as possible to the other side. In aggregate, people get accused of being on the "wrong side of history" at least twice as often as they actually are, since these accusations go in both directions on virtually every controversial topic.

</comment><comment><USER27> The answer is clearly "never" \--- the attitude expressed in the article leads toward totalitarian control over people's personal lives. Toleration, as Europe took hundreds of years to painfully discover, is the way you build a cohesive society around people who disagree. When you ban cooperation among people with divergent political opinions, you not only lose out on any positive-sum productivity gains from the interaction, but also intensify these political differences and turn them into real rifts in society.

I am disappointed in the contemporary trend to invest imaginary "harms" and propose remedies that, in the end, boil down to persecuting people for their beliefs. Altman is definitely right about the social atmosphere in tech. Imagining that we should, say, ban contributions to an open source project from someone who also participates in 4chan is part of the problem.

</comment><comment><USER28> I still think the answer here is 'never', communities should be as self contained as possible and not try and take over personal lives. To do otherwise reminds of those schools that try and punish students (and sometimes teachers) for actions done in their free time; an absolutely ridiculous overreach that makes things worse rather than better.

And I stick by that for communities I run. On every site I'm an admin/founder, the rule is that (legal issues excepting), we won't punish you for things done outside of the community. It's not our place to do so, and we have no interest in witch hunting or trying to find reasons to deplatform people for things they do in their free time elsewhere.

</comment><comment><USER29> Well, when the inner community relies heavily on trust, such as a company where you handle peoples' money, or even teach them about money, I think integrity is such a highly valued quality, that you would be extremely sensitive to any sign that an individual lacks it ( ie acting differently in different situations, or cheating on their spouse, for example ). "If a spouse can't trust a person, why should I trust them as their boss?" -Dave Ramsey

</comment><comment><USER30> This is an interesting post - not because of the content provided by the author but because of this discussion thread!

</comment><comment><USER31> This whole question really stems from a sad and pervasive tendency for 'intelligent' people to overestimate their general expertise, and then apply their value judgements to individuals in their social circle, regardless of its utility or relevance.

Examples of this:

Alan Turing -- father of Computer Science shunned, at the time, because everyone had value judgements regarding his homosexuality (completely irrelevant to Computer Science).

The Mozilla CEO fired for his personal donation in opposition to gay marriage. (Again, completely irrelevant to his relationship with the Mozilla project).

This, of course, continues further, with things such as Hollywood blacklisting (today) Conservatives, and formerly Communists.

The solution is simple:

Within a community, individuals should only be judged based on their contributions and value within that community.

If I am deeply opposed to gay marriage, but a fantastic coder, that should not affect my standing within a community that is entirely code focused.

If I strongly believe in UFO visitations, and disbelieve climate change, but am a great graphic designer, that should not affect my reputation as an artist.

Everyone is not expected to be right, or agreeable, about everything, with everyone else. Aiming for this is pointless.

This inability to separate emotions and passions from cooperating on a shared focus with others, of differing emotions and passions, but equal interest in the shared focus (community) is deeply damaging.

There are enough problems and difficulties getting skilled people together to work on something great -- there is no use at all in reducing that crowd of people further by limiting it to those who share ones views in any number of hot button issues.

Leave politics to your political circles, make your own impressions of people before making personal judgements from reputation, find every reason to work together, not any excuse not to.

<comment><USER32> > deeply opposed to gay marriage, but a fantastic coder, that should not > affect my standing within a community that is entirely code focused

Do you think someone can really work effectively with their gay married co- contributors in this case?

Being inclusive is great, but you have to recognise that including certain people drives others away from the project.

<comment><USER33> > Do you think someone can really work effectively with their gay married co- > contributors in this case?

I would expect so, yes.

Firearms are a huge part of my life, as is political advocacy for self-defense rights. I've worked with many people who disagreed with me on that issue to the degree that I expect that many people disagree with gay marriage. For the vast majority of them, it wasn't an issue.

<comment><USER34> It feels qualitatively different to argue that "he and I disagree on firearms but we continue to work together" is the same basic concept.

Imagine you're a gay man, happily married. You work at Mozilla.

Don't you think it would be difficult to go into work, and report to your CEO, knowing that he had _donated_ against gay marriage? That he feels your way of life has no place in America?

Mozilla is an outspoken champion of net neutrality, anonymity, free speech, open standards, and several other ideologies that emphasize freedom. How can you clap at an all-hands meeting when your CEO stands in front of the company and talks about the importance of these freedoms, while knowing that he also feels so strongly that your private relationship with your husband is so abhorrent that he thought it was a good use of $1000 to try to ban it?

If the liberals "win", and guns are banned tomorrow, like they are in Australia, are you so committed to your firearm rights that you'll consider moving to another country, or suicide because life just isn't worth living? Do you think it's ludicrous that gay people might consider those options?

Firearms are a choice. Being gay is not. Judgement against gay marriage is judgement against who you are. Judgement against firearms is judgement against a hobby.

Take the argument back 50 years. Do you think a white boss who donated money against equal rights could/would treat black employees fairly?

Imagine that you're a gay employee at Mozilla. You've been gunning for a promotion into upper management, and someone else wins the position. Are you never going to wonder, "Does his skin crawl when we shake hands? Would I have won the position if my Facebook didn't have pictures of me and my husband on it?"

Have you ever wondered if your love of firearms has impacted your professional career?

<comment><USER33> > It feels qualitatively different to argue that "he and I disagree on > firearms but we continue to work together" is the same basic concept.

I get that it feels different to you - but I'm telling you in good faith that it doesn't to me.

> Don't you think it would be difficult to go into work, and report to your > CEO, knowing that he had donated against gay marriage?

Certainly. I've quit jobs because of similar issues. If someone feels about gay marriage the way I do about guns and the right to self-defense, it sounds entirely reasonable to me for them not to financial support people who actively work against their political interests.

> If the liberals "win", and guns are banned tomorrow, like they are in > Australia, are you so committed to your firearm rights that you'll consider > moving to another country, or suicide because life just isn't worth living?

Yes. Five years ago when I was choosing a place to move from rural Arkansas to further my career as a developer, California, Illinois, New York, and several other states were out of the question because of their gun laws. Now that I'm more established, I'm moving back to Arkansas and a large part of that is the political climate here in Virginia.

Given the choice between disarmament and emigration, I'd emigrate. Given the choice between disarmament and death, I would fight. It's that serious of an issue to me and to _far_ more people than you'd believe unless you've lived somewhere surrounded by people who share this view.

> Firearms are a choice. Being gay is not. Judgement against gay marriage is > judgement against who you are. Judgement against firearms is judgement > against a hobby.

Respectfully, you're completely wrong here. Firearms are not a hobby for me, they're symbolic of my entire cultural perspective. It is no more a choice than religious affiliation.

> Have you ever wondered if your love of firearms has impacted your > professional career?

Of course it has. I'd be making significantly more money right now if I'd moved to San Jose, New York City, or even Portland.

\---

I'm re-reading my comments above, and hesitating to submit them because I'm concerned that they might easily be seen as justification to lump me in with the GOP. Let me be clear about that - I don't consider myself a Republican, and I don't consider myself a conservative. I'm an extreme libertarian. I have no animosity towards homosexuals, and it doesn't matter to me how someone presents themselves or structure their personal relationships. "It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

The main point I'm trying to make is that online communities in particular are made up of people with drastically different perspectives on life. Some of those differences are obvious, but some are not. Some of them are expected to be respected while it's socially acceptable to disregard others out of hand. That's not right.

<comment><USER35> > I get that it feels different to you - but I'm telling you in good faith > that it doesn't to me.

I think there's a very obvious difference:

(hopefully) Your views on guns and personal liberty are based on ethics and under the system you believe is ethical, personal liberty and firearms are important. You do not hold a code of ethics because it allows you to use firearms, but you believe you are allowed to use firearms due to the ethical system. (I may be mistaken here, but allow me to overstep and state that I'd find anyone who developed an ethical system to support their use of firearms downright scary).

For someone who is gay, there's nothing like that. They find different people attractive. No ethical systems to it.

In other words, "I love people of my same sex" is an axiom, "people should be allowed to use firearms" is a conclusion.

<comment><USER36> > For someone who is gay, there's nothing like that. They find different > people attractive. No ethical systems to it.

And why is that difference relevant?

<comment><USER35> >In other words, "I love people of my same sex" is an axiom, "people should be allowed to use firearms" is a conclusion.

I feel that I addressed that.

<comment><USER36> I can't see how you did?

Why is a firmly held conviction less important than a physical attribute you are born with?

<comment><USER35> I never said anything about importance. I said they were different, and I believe that they should be treated differently because they are different, not because one is more important than the other.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> its quite simple really, if you are a conservative at a Silicon Valley company, just lie to anyone who tries to reveal your belief system.

 _real shame we don 't have a President Sanders...yes, really, oh yes I agree..._

</comment><comment><USER38> The answer is simple: never.

<comment><USER32> It's very easy to not read the article, isn't it? Then drop in a sweeping generalisation that says it's completely fine to have a murderer write your filesystems.

<comment><USER38> I read the article, thank you. It is completely fine to have a murderer write your filesystems. Accepting patches from someone who writes good code and treats everyone involved with respect is the right approach.

<comment><USER39> What about accepting non trivial patch from someone who smuggled backdoor for lulz to another project 3 years ago?

<comment><USER40> Fraud is very different from murder, and I understand why someone would be worried about accepting contributions from a known fraudster.

I would not give their contributions extra attention (you should be suspect of _all_ changes, regardless of the author) and I would not ban them from contributing unless they became disruptive or subversive to the project.

They served their time; you don't need to punish them further. They are probably even less likely to commit fraud when their employer is aware of a previous fraud conviction.

The worst fraudsters don't come with a "convicted of fraud" warning—they have evaded being caught and will seem just like any other contributor.

<comment><USER41> > They served their time; you don't need to punish them further.

It is not about punishing them, it is about reducing the risk of others. Having served time is, at best, no indication of whether a person will revert to their former behavior.

> The worst fraudsters don't come with a "convicted of fraud" warning—they > have evaded being caught and will seem just like any other contributor.

This is no reason for not using what information you do have.

Note: I see that you have edited your original post to address these points, but I think they still stand, as expanded on in the continuing discussion below. Your statement "they are probably even less likely to commit fraud when their employer is aware of a previous fraud" seems to be in agreement with what I have been saying.

<comment><USER40> It's a reason to be equally suspicious of all code changes regardless of the publicly known reputation of a contributor, as it always comes down to the code itself.

<comment><USER41> You are still arguing against using the available evidence. You never have the time and resources to fully validate anything of use, so you have to use your judgement as to how best to go about it. If you learn that a person responsible for some aspect of security has been found guilty of defrauding his church's charity drive, it would be prudent to take a second look at his code.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


TTIP talks: Food fights block EU–US trade deal - chestnut-tree http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33055665

<comment><AUTHOR> Power to Europe. It alone has the might to stand up to the US corporatocracy. The precautionary principle, that stuff must be shown to be safe before being put on the market, makes a heck of a lot more sense than the American let- business-do-what-they-want approach.

<comment> michel-slm Power to Europe in this case, though in general their Common Agricultural Policy is insanity

<comment><USER2> The Common Agricultural Policy has its upsides too. It's nice to know a lot of the produce is based of a certain baseline. Particularly when it comes to pesticides and GMO & allowing this to work in market through the use CAP

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> > The European Commission - the EU's top regulator - has given EU member > states the power to ban GMO cultivation for reasons beyond environmental or > public health concerns

This is insane, bans must be on environmental and health concerns only, not political ones like right now.

<comment><USER4> I think it is reasonable for a country to ban GMOs that are covered by patents that would be adverse to that country's agricultural industry.

<comment><USER5> There is also a lot of fear of the GM crops destroying our already great crops. We dont see any need to actually risk anything with crops that have been modified when we have perfectly great crops already.

<comment><USER3> > We dont see any need to actually risk anything with crops that have been > modified when we have perfectly great crops already.

What risk? Can you provide ant source for that risk.

And, by the way, apart that we don't have perfectly great crops, those crops are already totally modified.

<comment><USER4> It seems the risk for Europe would be giving control of their agriculture to a non-EU corporation like Monsanto.

<comment><USER3> Really? Right now, there is a lot of crops patented and it is not happening.

Patenting has nothing to do with liking GMO or not, this is just an excuse</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


AskHN Any idea who is behind this caustic (and rather funny) Twitter account? - <AUTHOR> http://twitter.com/hackernewstips <comment><USER2> Some brilliant stuff there. My favorite:

 _Try an A/B test where B is a redirect to Google. Users assume it was their mistake & search for you again, thus improving your clickthroughs_

<comment><AUTHOR> I quite liked:

 _Today, @PaulG claimed there is no tech bubble. In unrelated news, @AdKeeperInc raised $40 mil. in funding for "Delicious, for banner ads"._

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Would be funny if it were @paulg. Or the guy behind @MayorEmanuel...</comment>


Visual Studio for Mac - <AUTHOR> https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/visual-studio-mac/ <comment><USER2> I find the naming "Visual Studio for Mac" pretty deceptive, since apparently it is not anything like the win32 VS environment, but instead based on Xamarin Studio. Even the tagline is deceptive: "The IDE you love, now on the Mac".

I would guess this won't let you build/debug win32 or winforms or wpf applications, or install any .vsix extensions from the visual studio marketplace (of which there are lots of useful ones, such as this one to manage translations - [https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=TomEngle...](https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=TomEnglert.ResXManager) ) - correct me if I'm wrong, but if I can't install my .vsix extensions, this is not "the IDE you love, now on the Mac".

<comment><USER3> Hi, Rajen Kishna here, Product Manager on Visual Studio for Mac. Our goal with Visual Studio for Mac is to create a native IDE for Mac users with workloads that make sense on macOS. That means "desktop app" development will target macOS and Visual Studio (on Windows) can be used to target Windows.

The core of the IDE definitely has a heritage in Xamarin Studio, but this release has brought in so much more with .NET Core/ASP.NET Core development for web apps/services, Unity support for game development and cloud integration with directly publishing your web apps/services and previews of Docker and Azure Functions coming very soon.

Extensions is definitely another area we're looking to align more over time. Currently, there is an extensions framework, but you're right that it's different from the one used on Windows.

Definitely keep the feedback coming, we're listening and looking to act and prioritize accordingly!

<comment><USER4> > _Definitely keep the feedback coming_

> _Our goal with Visual Studio for Mac is to create a native IDE for Mac > users...That means "desktop app" development will target macOS._

Feedback: This target ghettoizing mentality seriously hurts my workflow. I just want to cross compile to target Windows. I want to make Win32 MFC C++ executables without having to boot into an operating system (Windows 10) that I never want to use on my development laptop for _anything_ other than running MSVC. It's literally just a set of headers and object files that will, in even the very worst case, produce more applications targeting your platform. Why does Microsoft continue to keep them walled off?

<comment><USER5> >Why does Microsoft continue to keep them walled off

Isn't the answer obvious? How many MFC devs are there working primarily in OSX or linux? It has to be tiny, even if they had the ability to do so. Great, I can compile; still need to boot up Windows to run it. My userbase is still 100% windows users. We still use Windows on every PC in my company. So who cares? What's the value proposition here?

<comment><USER6> > Isn't the answer obvious? How many MFC devs are there working primarily in > OSX or linux?

None, because you can't, the same reason you don't see many iOS developers using windows. I don't know if there are many people that want to work that way or if it's worth supporting, but your current argument is circular reasoning at it's finest.

<comment><USER7> Yet Microsoft supports, and was investing heavily in, iOS development in Visual Studio on Windows...

<comment><USER8> As long as you have a Mac and an iOS device to connect to.

<comment><USER5> I know, total PITA. Why can't I run my iOS app on Windows?! Screw you M$!

...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Almost 10 years since I exchanged emails with Steve Ballmer about this: [https://medium.com/@jot/me-and-steve-ballmer- in-2007-68456a5...](https://medium.com/@jot/me-and-steve-ballmer- in-2007-68456a554d41)

<comment><USER10> I'm surprised he even replied at all, given that he must have received several thousand emails that day, and this one was ... rather long.

<comment><USER11> I wonder if it's Steve responding at all.

His PA probably co-managed his inbox and would read and respond to this type of e-mail. Perhaps they also only forward on emails to Steve's "priority" inbox if they're worthy of his time?

<comment><USER12> Would his PA reply to emails on a Sunday at 11:32 PM ?

<comment><USER11> Perhaps this email was worthy of Steve's time :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Since there's a PM here from Microsoft, I've got a couple questions regarding the requirement to "sign in with your Microsoft account":

With all your branding changes over the years, what's considered a Microsoft account today? My old Hotmail account, that existed from the days before Microsoft bought Hotmail? I think it's still alive, but I haven't logged in in the better part of a decade to find out. The accounts created over the years for various Xbox machines? I think those are still around, but I doubt I could get into them at this point. The "Live" account I had to create for MSDN many years ago? Once that job and associated need for MSDN ended I've not logged in to see if it's still around.

Which one(s) should I try to find login information for to use?

Furthermore, why must I sign in in the first place for the free version? I can understand signing in to associate the install with a paid version with extra features, but I see no reason to require it for free versions without any paid features.

<comment><USER4> > _My old Hotmail account, that existed from the days before Microsoft bought > Hotmail? I think it 's still alive, but I haven't logged in in the better > part of a decade to find out._

I have some bad news for you... This is literally the reason I signed up with gmail when it came out. Microsoft used to have a log-in-within-30-days-or-we- delete-everything policy for Hotmail. Maybe it was even 90 days.

<comment><USER14> It was 30 days as I found out the hard way sometimes in the early 2000s while traveling with no internet access for 2 months.

<comment><USER15> I too, lost data from this policy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I used to be a big VB, VC++ fan boy a long time ago. 1995 :-) Have since move on....

Tried built a few opensource apps with VS once a year for the past few years and found that I can't even compile a single Windows open source packages from github, sourceforge after weeks of trying.

The code might claim to be able to build with VS10, VS12. The dependency libraries will need completely different VS version of .xml, .proj, .sln build systems.

I challenge the PM of VS product try to build a few popular MS projs such as python, VLC, or anything in [http://opensourcewindows.org/](http://opensourcewindows.org/). Document the process of building the app and dependence library. Compare that to the process of try to build that same packages in Mac (with brew) or in Linux.

In Linux, for all the packages I like play with. "./configure && make" handle most of the the build in a few minutes. Even easier on Ubuntu with apt-get source/build commands. Very similar process in Mac.

Even linux kernel, I can build it easily with pretty much the same 1-2 commands for the past 20 years.

<comment><USER17> Not to distract from your point but compiling something on Linux has always been a massive pain due to dependencies.

I often have to run configure multiple times and hunt down the correct version of whatever library it needs before re-running it and finding yet another library that it can not find (it gets even worse if you actually have the library installed but it's not in the search path...)

<comment><USER18> Compiling something on Linux is a piece of cake, even with dependencies, compared to Windows.

In Linux, the dependencies are just apt/dnf/yum away. In Windows, you have to build them, including their dependencies. There is no ./configure, no cmake config, it either has VS solution file (if you are lucky, it will even work with your version), or not. If you have the dependency library somewhere, you have to edit that project file tell the VS manually where it is. If you weren't lucky with an existing sln file, it's time to make your own.

Reading README to learn about dependencies and running configure with some flags is fine, compared to that.

<comment><USER19> Windows has cmake...

<comment><USER18> The point I was trying to make, that it will not help much. Most packages you are going to build do not support it yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> I really wish Microsoft had made UWP cross-platform. Would be pretty amazing if I could use UWP/C# to target Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS and Android properly. With UWP being limited to just Windows I don't see it ever being a success.

<comment><USER21> Why? UWP is the future of application development on Windows. That's like saying Cocoa will never be a success. Also if you can make UWP apps, you can make Xamarin apps which are cross platform (for mobile at least).

<comment><USER6> UWP doesn't allow enough system access to ever be the future of Windows. At best it's the future of a locked down toy version of windows.

<comment><USER22> > _UWP doesn 't allow enough system access to ever be the future of Windows._

That's kind of the point. Most apps don't need unfettered system access and many (most?) app authors aren't capable of writing an app that's secure anyway; one of the biggest attack vectors today is through apps.

<comment><USER6> UWP won't replace win32 until it can handle all apps, not just most apps.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Is this more than just Xamarin? I'm sorry -- I tried last time and that was the impression I got. I know it says it has asp.net core but can I truly build .net web services based apps now without parallels?

<comment><USER3> Hi, Rajen Kishna here, Product Manager on Visual Studio for Mac. It definitely is more than Xamarin, we brought in support for creating web apps and services with .NET Core/ASP.NET Core, game development with Unity and C#, and cloud integration with publishing your web apps/services to Azure directly from within the IDE. We're also announcing some preview features coming very soon, including Docker and Azure Functions support, as well as targeting IoT devices like Android Things. Lots of goodies to be had!

<comment><USER23> Sweet thanks for the feedback - this is definitely a step in the right direction.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Does it support C++ ? To me, "Visual Studio" is about C++ development and I miss a similarly powerful C++ IDE on the Mac.

From what I can see, it only supports C# (and family), so what good is it to a C++ / OSX dev ?

<comment><USER25> Xcode is ok for C++ (not nearly as many features as Visual Studio on Windows, though).

<comment><USER24> I used to think that way too until I opened my project in Visual C++ (with the Visual Assist addon).

The productivity boost was so great that I've decided to never use Xcode for C++ again and do all my development in a VM if I have to.

Best alternative is Qt Creator and it's probably what I'm going to use for my next C++ project on the mac. Many people recommend CLion, but I've never really managed to actually use it (and it isn't free and runs on the jvm).

Still VC++ is a powerful tool for C++ development, which is probably quite hard to beat, so having it on the mac would make using Windows totally optional :).

<comment><USER26> VSCode is constantly improving. I haven't used Qt Creator in years, so I can't compare, but ... for my uses it is way ahead of PyCharm and WebStorm; I suspect it rivals QtCreator by now (as long as you're not writing a Qt based project)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> The only problem I have with MS's ecosystem is their love to have a lot of concepts and name for everything. I am literally lost and I do not know what .NET/<whatever> is what and how it is used.

So is this just Xamarin repackaged ?

<comment><USER28> This is no different from the apple ecosystem. Their programming is filled with so many jargons (talking of desktop UI development here)

<comment><USER27> No idea you might be right but I have no problem navigating in Ruby/Go/JavaScript ecosystems. While with MS I have the feeling they produce new tech and new names every week.

<comment><USER29> Seems mostly a matter of getting used to it. What's a 'gem'? And a 'bundler'? A rake, a rack, a rail, a tilt, a merb?

Make sure to browserify your webpack, take a moment, don't react, have a mocha before, gulp, bowser comes to get you. Wait no, it's fine, it's just bower.

<comment><USER30> Those are specific module names, in the case of JS at least. Not really comparable with framework-specific jargon. A better comparison would be redux concepts like "action", "store", and "reducer".

<comment><USER29> No and no.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Microsoft Build is becoming an event where hell freezes over lately. VS on Mac, Linux on Windows, open source asp.net and .net, SQL Server on Linux

<comment><USER32> It's not really VS on Mac, though. It's just a rebadged Xamarin Studio. I can't really call that amazing.

<comment><USER3> Hi there, Rajen Kishna here, Product Manager on Visual Studio for Mac. If you haven't tried it out yet, I would definitely say check out the released version of Visual Studio for Mac. It has support for mobile apps with Xamarin, but adds so much more to build web apps and services with .NET Core and even games with Unity. We also announced preview support coming very soon for Docker and Azure Functions and are definitely planning on adding more over time.

<comment><USER33> > _Hi, Rajen Kishna here, Product Manager on Visual Studio for Mac_

Hi, a minor procedural point (I'm a mod here): it's good to say this once in a thread, but repeating it after that breaks the feeling of normal conversation, so could you please not? Experience shows that users figure it out.

<comment><USER34> I haven't seen his other comments yet so the heads up helped me understand the context of his comments better.

<comment><USER33> Yes, there's a tradeoff with redundancy but overall it lowers the signal/noise ratio.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> It would be really nice to have a microsoft rep in here to answer questions. Because what I really want is visual studio that can build C++ win32 MFC executables without having to run Windows in a virtual machine. Can it do that? I don't know.

<comment><USER35> Hi! I'm Steve the C++ dev manager in Visual Studio. No, VS for Mac does not currently have C++ support but thanks for the feedback.

One thing you could do is register your opinion here: [https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/563332-visual- stud...](https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/563332-visual-studio-for- mac/suggestions/17141708-support-c-in-visual-studio-for-mac)

<comment><USER4> Hey Steve, the website definitely makes it seem like it does. You should send a message to whoever manages that.

See: [http://imgur.com/a/exQvj](http://imgur.com/a/exQvj)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> > Xamarin

Isn't this just MonoDevelop? Or have Microsoft added secret sauce to the mix?

<comment><USER37> More than that, if they're willing to deliver a port of Xamarin/MonoDevelop to Mac and call it VS, it's at least funny that they won't do that for Linux. There is no actual need for that, but since they're refactoring Xamarin...

<comment><USER38> We would like more people to speak up about this.

We need your votes, your voices to make the case that we should release all this goodness on Linux.

Little know fact: some of the engineers on the Visual Studio for Mac team are still developing it in Linux itself. So it already works there.

At this point it is a matter of hearing your voices. Speak up often :-)

<comment><USER39> _Where_ do we speak up about this? I remember when Xamarin Studio was released on Mac, and I tried to look for a Linux build, there wasn't a place where I could ask about it, except a Reddit AMA. Hacker News discussions around release time of a non-Linux product don't seem like a good place to ask about Linux support either.

And I'm pretty sure I'm one of few who even hopes for it anymore.

<comment><USER38> Please support us here:

[https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual- stud...](https://visualstudio.uservoice.com/forums/121579-visual-studio- ide/suggestions/18433768-visual-studio-for-linux-os)

It would be great if in addition to voting, you can articulate some reasons for why you care, add a personal touch, in the end, we would love to know what our users care the most about.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> I sincerely would LOVE to have an F# development IDE that didn't ask me to install Mono. I don't have anything against Mono, per se, I just want to see that Microsoft officially supports it across the three major platforms.

</comment><comment><USER41> They're promoting this as a new dev environment for .NET Core, but there's still ZERO tooling for Razor. I tried starting a simple example project and the .cshtml files didn't even have any syntax highlighting, let alone syntax/type checking.

I don't know how you work on cross-platform ASP.NET for this long and still not have the tooling for your templating engine ported.

<comment><USER42> Maybe the devs are busy switching project format every couple of months?

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Again, online installer only. Did something recently change something, that made difficult to make full, offline installer?

If yes, JetBrains didn't notice, because they are still able to do that for their products.

<comment><USER29> There are manual install instructions that come with the downloader, you can download and install all the components yourself.

<comment><USER18> And the offline media build failed, just after 18GB download:

        [Exception] System.AggregateException: One or more errors occurred. ---> System.IO.FileNotFoundException: /Users/<username>/Library/Caches/XamarinInstaller/Universal/downloads/repository-10.xml does not exist

<comment><USER29> That looks like maybe you installed in the wrong order? Seemed to work ok for me.

<comment><USER18> How in the wrong order? Exactly as described on the page.

There is not much wiggle room, launch the installer with the switches, select a directory where to build the installer, go. There's not much that you can reorder.

Of course, on the second try, although the downloader caches whatever it downloads, it does not use that for the next round, it will throw it away and redownload everything. So 36 GB of traffic later, I gave up.

<comment><USER29> Oh I see, you found yet another set of instructions. I meant these: start the regular installer, pick manual installation from the app menu, it gives you a readme with direct download links. Download the components you want (none seem to add up to 18 gb, for me at least), install and run.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I don't understand. I've been using VS on Mac for the past 3 months to develop C# applications for a class of mine. Was that just a beta? What's so different about this?

<comment><USER44> Visual Studio vs Visual Studio Code. 2 different applications with really similar names. Visual Studio Code is lighter weight - more similar to Sublime/Atom.

<comment><USER45> They released this Visual Studio like a year ago, too. Might have been a "preview" or something? Free for all to download though.

Edit: Yeah, this is just their GA release

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> Release notes for today's update: [https://www.visualstudio.com/en- us/news/releasenotes/vs2017-...](https://www.visualstudio.com/en- us/news/releasenotes/vs2017-mac-relnotes)

</comment><comment><USER47> Anyone know what support is planned for other languages? e.g. Go, Ruby, and PHP.

<comment><USER38> Yes, we will be adding support for more languages.

We will be doing that with the Language Server Protocol effort that was started at Microsoft and is currently in use by VSCode and other languages:

[http://langserver.org/](http://langserver.org/)

Miguel

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Crashes during install process for me. :\

Looks like during Xamarin installation: /Users/USER/Downloads/Install Visual Studio.app/Contents/MacOS/Install_Xamarin - Terminating app due to uncaught exception 'NSInvalidArgumentException', reason: '-[NSScrollView heightAnchor]: unrecognized selector sent to instance 0x6080003c0870'

Bummer.

<comment><USER49> Do you have macOS at least 10.11?

<comment><USER50> Does not matter. If it's incompatible with the OS it should say so and not crash.

<comment><USER51> we shipped a fix for this Friday :)

<comment><USER50> <3

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> More good news from the MS / Xamarin camp. A few years ago I 'bet the farm' on using Xamarin for Mac to develop a Mac version of our PC application (with shared code in a PCL); since that time Xamarin (and then MS/Xamarin after the buyout) have rarely failed to impress. Kudos to the team.

</comment><comment><USER53> Any .NET MVC developers here? I always wanted to learn ASP MVC, but never did because I was scared of the deployment situation on Linux. Has anything changed in that regard? Would you say deploying a .NET web app works almost as smooth on Linux as let's say a node.js app?

<comment><USER54> I've deployed some webapi projects using docker. Very straightforward. I assume it should work nice if deployed directly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> Visual Studio Code is the way to go on Mac.

<comment> james-skemp Just installed Visual Studio for Mac (I've been using VS Code for a while on Windows and Mac) and first blush I'd agree. But to be determined after actual usage.

Code is definitely targeted to be lightweight, and it shows. I also am a fan of Code's look, versus the Mac wrapper around VS for Mac.

I'll probably give VS for Mac a try via a .NET Core tutorial, but for day-to- day JS dev I'll probably be keeping with VS Code.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> Again? I've seen the announcement for its release three times on HN.

And before someone mentions it, no I'm not confusing it with VS Code. I mean "Visual Studio for Mac", the Xamarin Studio fork.

<comment><USER3> Hi there, we actually released the product today, so it's generally available and fully supported. Hope that clears things up!

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> Same strategy as always. Rebrand current products and call it new. This is not Visual Studio as known from Windows but Xamarin Studio rebranded. Title should be Microsoft release Xamarin update...

<comment><USER58> In fairness it seems like a pretty big update.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Coincidentally I was just using this & Xamarin Studio on mac today. I didn't realize VS Mac had released, I already had the beta.

So far I don't like it as much! Not sure what features are here I actually care about as I'm just using Mono. The pads no longer make sense in VS for Mac. I just have debug pads open all the time. I can't really tell when I've stopped debugging. There's weird buttons on the pads that do nothing. Not sure why all the clutter is here, Xamarin Studio had this stuff figured out.

</comment><comment><USER60> I've been waiting for this for a while. Only trouble so far is that the installer comes up in the wrong locale for me (it ignores the language ordering in Preferences and displays the installer in my secondary/input language, not English, unlike fully native apps).

<comment><USER51> that's been fixed since :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> Is anybody doing professional development on .NET using VS for Mac? All this time i thought it was just Xamarin tools, but it looks like it actually has .NET Core project templates too. This has been the only thing that kept me away from Macs as a .NET dev.

</comment><comment><USER62> This is still using GTK+ (3?), right?

How did they manage to integrate the buttons in the title bar with it?

<comment><USER49> Visual Studio for Mac's shell code is written in gtk+ 2. We have supporting code in gtk+ to allow mixing gtk widgets with native widgets.

But the glue code isn't used here, because there is another interesting mechanism at play. The root window created by gtk on macOS is actually an NSWindow (see GdkQuartzWindow), thus you can use Cocoa APIs on the window. We just set the title visibility to hidden and set the native titlebar widget.

<comment><USER62> Nice! Thanks for the explanation.

Do you plan to port to GTK 3 in the future? Does version 2 even have HiDPI support?

<comment><USER49> We have some glue code to workaround lack of retina/hidpi support in gtk+.

Yes, having Gtk UI running on Gtk 3 is something we want to have at some point.

<comment><USER63> This is the most unbelievable thing. Even WSL was kinda okay to imagine. But Microsoft and Gtk?

I thought after buying Xamarin they would replace Gtk part.

<comment><USER64> Unbelievable :D

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> Is this VS? Or just Xamarin? Could I do Python development on it like I can with Win VS?

</comment><comment><USER66> Is VS for Mac recommended for typescript development? I'm using VS code right now.

</comment><comment><USER67> Is there any way to run this/download a compatible version for OSX 10.9?

<comment><USER49> Visual Studio for Mac requires OSX 10.11+.

<comment><USER67> I know ... am I the only one facing this predicament?

I have an early 2009 Mac Pro with OSX 10.9. I don't want to break anything so I haven't updated to Sierra but more and more apps are incompatible with my computer now.

<comment><USER68> Run it in a VM, that way you can keep your main machine on 10.9 and experiment in the VM with things like this.

I guess you already know that 10.9 is no longer supported, so you might want to consider to at least update to 10.10.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> Will this allow you to make cross-platform Windows Forms applications?

<comment><USER70> Nope. Windows Forms is a UI technology tied to Windows itself.(It's implemented as wrapper over WndProc and Windows Common Controls.)

Windows Forms is not cross platform, and VS for Mac doesn't change this.

VS for Mac is intended to build cross platform web apps, console apps, and mobile apps with Xamarin.

<comment><USER71> Windows Forms is implemented in Mono. It's… buggy, but it works.

<comment><USER72> Is that the version using winelib? I believe there is now native OSX support in wine in addition to x11drv. Could the Mono version be ported?

<comment><USER73> No. The Winelib implementation fizzled over a decade ago. Mono's WinForms implementation is managed, invoking a cleanroom C libgdiplus.so/dlyib for GDI+ calls

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> I'm currently working on an MVC5 project on .NET 4.6.1 using VS2015 on Windows.

Can I load my solution on VS for Mac and have it work out of the box(restoring nuget packages...etc)?

</comment><comment><USER75> Can this do PHP and Javascript / Web Development?

Objective C? Swift?

</comment><comment><USER76> Is the installer in Chinese for anyone else?

<comment><USER18> There is something fishy going on, for me, it was in Russian.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> Any chance we're going to get a Hololens development environment for the Mac anytime soon?

</comment><comment><USER78> Is there a reason why the installer is in french? My preferred language is set to english.

<comment><USER51> No, you're not alone, but we've fixed it since. The new installer builds will choose the correct language.

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> Bring back CodeWarrior I say

</comment><comment><USER80> first rate development experience on mac. MS is slaying it lately.

<comment><USER32> Check again. It's not the same Visual Studio that's on Windows. It's just a rebadged Xamarin Studio.

</comment></comment><comment><USER81> Hit download and get a popup for a free 60 day course. No thanks.

</comment><comment><USER82> Wanted to try it but installer crashes on OSX Yosemite 10.10.5

<comment><USER51> This has been fixed - but be aware that VS for Mac requires 10.11 (el cap) as minimum

</comment></comment><comment><USER83> Does Visual Studio for Mac have the same functionality as Visual Studio for Windows? If not then they should really stop confusing customers by rebranding a product that had nothing to do with Visual Studio for Windows.

</comment><comment><USER84> I don't even know what's real anymore...

</comment><comment><USER85> So beautiful!

</comment><comment><USER86> Let me know when this supports .NET 4.

</comment><comment><USER87> I can't really understand the full depth from the announcement, but to me this looks like something that already existed for a few years, Xamarin.

What are the diferences between this product and Xamarin for MacOS (something that already existed)?

</comment><comment><USER88> No lie, when I saw the title of this thread for a few seconds I was confused and wanted to check my calendar. I kept thinking "Is this April 1st?".</comment>


Introduction to Haskell, Lecture 2 is Live - <AUTHOR> http://shuklan.com/haskell/lec02.html

<comment><USER2> Great! Just two suggestions.

1) It's been a week or more since Lecture 1, it's complicated to keep track of what I've learned if I can't watch the next lecture for 1 or 2 weeks.

2) Having to open the console to watch the notes is __really __annoying, can't you just put the notes with a smaller font in the slides?

</comment><comment><USER3> Really enjoying this and finding it very useful. Thank you for sharing and emailing the notifications.</comment>


Show HN: The Remote Working Chronicles – Personal Stories of Remote Workers - <AUTHOR> https://content.remote.tools/category/remote-working-chronicles <comment><AUTHOR> Remote work is invigorating, tough and undoubtedly, the present & future of work! We took it upon us to bring forward personal stories & experiences of successful remote workers - motivation, transition, challenges, likes/ dislikes & their overall journey.

Would love to hear your thoughts and feedback :)</comment>


How Cassandra handles failures - <AUTHOR> http://cassandra-user-incubator-apache-org.3065146.n2.nabble.com/How-does-Cassandra-handle-failure-during-synchronous-writes-td6055152.html

<comment><AUTHOR> TL;DR Disappointed to see Cassandra does not have Amazon Dynamo like eventual consistency. Or even acknowledge any lack thereof.</comment>


Dow Jones' 2010 Executive Compensation Report for VC-Backed Companies - <AUTHOR> http://www.dowjones.com/privatemarkets/research/Compensation%20Survey_2010.xls

<comment><AUTHOR> I thought it was interesting how pre-revenue median compensation for CEOs was $320k, and post-revenue was $291k.

Which pre-revenue companies are paying their CEOs $320k?

<comment><USER2> The first thing that came to my mind was non software related companies that have large manufacturing/operational overhead to launch a product. It's possible, with a small sample like this, to have only surveyed hardware companies -- which would definitely skew things quite a bit.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'm actually surprised that the median founder of a venture funded firm only owns ~5% of the company.

Do others' experience confirm this?

<comment><AUTHOR> This certainly isn't the Silicon Valley demographic, but I'm not sure what the demographic _is_. I'd be interested to see a breakdown of what kinds of companies were surveyed.

That being said, the numbers given are for CXOs, and not specifically founders (though there's obviously a strong overlap). Founders in Silicon Valley, even after raising large rounds, will typically own much more than 5% of the company.</comment></comment>