Ask HN: LinkedIn made me reset my password (my email was in the Gawker dump) - <AUTHOR>

I suspect LinkedIn is checking email addresses against the hacked Gawker data and forcing any matching accounts to reset their password. Here's an except of the email they sent me:

  In order to ensure that you continue to have the best experience using
  LinkedIn, we are constantly monitoring our site to make sure your account information is safe.

  We have recently disabled your account for security reasons.
 Is this happening to anyone else? for other sites? <comment><USER2> I appreciated that. I also appreciated them being vague about the reasoning. No need to call Gawker out.

Fortunately I wasn't emailed by hint.io. I know they meant well, but it feels shady, considering they headed off other people working to accomplish similar goals (presumably without sending from their startup's domain)[1]

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1999410>

<comment><USER2> Oh, actually I was emailed by hint.io, it was just marked spam by gmail. Sweet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> That is exactly what they're doing:

"As a proactive security measure, we've reached out to users potentially affected by the gawker breach to change their password."

<http://twitter.com/#!/LinkedIn/status/14507486753062913>

</comment><comment><USER4> I got the following email from Blizzard as well as the one you mentioned from LinkedIn:

Greetings!

We've recently been informed that several Gawker Media websites have been compromised. These websites include Gawker, Gizmodo, Kotaku, Lifehacker, Jezebel, io9, Jalopnik, Deadspin, and Fleshbot. To help minimize the effects of this compromise and help keep your Battle.net account safe and secure, we've reset your account password. To complete the password reset, please log into Battle.net Account Management (<https://us.battle.net/account/management>) and follow the provided instructions.

If you are a registered commenter for any of these sites and used your Battle.net email address to sign up with Gawker Media, we also recommend that you update your Battle.net address as soon as possible via Account Management. If you are unable to complete this step or the password reset on your own and believe your account may be compromised, please contact our customer support staff by using the Account Recovery form (<https://us.battle.net/account/support/account-recovery.html>) and be sure to check out our Account Security Awareness guide (<http://us.battle.net/en/security/>) for additional security tips and suggestions.

For more information about this situation, please visit Gawker Media's official announcement ([http://gawker.com/5713056/gawker-security-breach-were- here-t...](http://gawker.com/5713056/gawker-security-breach-were-here-to- help)) or Lifehacker's comprehensive FAQ ([http://lifehacker.com/5712785/faq- compromised-commenting-acc...](http://lifehacker.com/5712785/faq-compromised- commenting-accounts-on-gawker-media)).

Regards, Blizzard Entertainment

</comment><comment><USER5> Kudos to linkedin if that's what they are doing.

Proactive security response.

</comment><comment><USER6> I also got this email. I suspected it due to the Gawker incident, although I wasn't sure. I wish they had been a little bit more specific.

I also got the email from hint.io, but it was marked as spam by GMail.

I was really glad when I found out about the incident that I used a throwaway password that wasn't the same as my GMail. I've been keeping track of more of my passwords with KeepassX, although I still use the same somewhat secure password on sites where it doesn't matter.

As a side note: I'm trying to brute force/crack my hash to test how secure my password is. I'm using John the Ripper with the command line:

      john -session:testing -incremental test.txt

So far, I'm 17 hours in at about 600000 c/s and it still hasn't been cracked, so I feel somewhat secure about it, although I realize DES is considered insecure.

</comment><comment><USER7> Me too. So far today I've been locked out of GMail, LinkedIn and Twitter. I thought it might be due to failed login attempts with a bad password, but it sounds like it's all just proactive lockouts based on being in the file.

</comment><comment><USER8> Yes. This happened to me too. And my e-mail was in the Gawker dump too. In fact I changed passwords of all my online accounts and completely forgot about LinkedIn. But I appreciate them doing this.

</comment><comment><USER9> And the "LinkedIn website" link was not like that?

hxxp://www.linkedin.com.qwe0923fffuuu.biz/ or similar?

If I was a phisher, I would have sent such things to all leaked emails...

</comment><comment><USER10> Maybe it's a phishing attempt? Be careful!

<comment><USER11> I don't think they are sending links inside the email. They just disable your account, let you know about it and when you try to login next time they will reset your password.

<comment><USER7> Yes - no link in the email.

\---

In order to ensure that you continue to have the best experience using LinkedIn, we are constantly monitoring our site to make sure your account information is safe.

We have recently disabled your account for security reasons. To reset your password, follow these quick steps:

Go to the LinkedIn website Click on "Sign In" Click on "Forgot Password?" and follow the directions on the website

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> So I give kudos to linkedin for being proactive, but I actually do create a different password for every site (stored in Password Safe/LastPass), so I'm not looking forward to having to change all my passwords for no reason.

But yeah, I'm sure for the majority of users this makes sense.

</comment><comment><USER13> Makes me feel better. I was "pretty sure" that i had only used Twitter OAuth to comment, and have been unable to confirm that. I haven't received an email from hint.io or a reset from LinkedIn so a little safer.

</comment><comment><USER14> That's fine if that's their reasoning, but I got 4 or 5 emails to the same effect. None of which really explained WHY I was being prompted so many times, so I dismissed them all as spam/phishing.

<comment><USER15> They possibly didn't want to call names.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I had the same email from linked in this morning but became suspicious because yesterday, I was locked out of both my gmail and twitter accounts. Guess I'll be staying tuned.

</comment><comment><USER17> My email wasn't in the Gawker dump and yet both my LinkedIn accounts got emails telling me to reset the password

</comment><comment><USER18> Happened to me too. I'm glad it was a proactive measure and not some script kiddy trying to access my account.

</comment><comment><USER19> I noticed I was locked out of Twitter today too

</comment><comment><USER20> Nice, hopefully more sites will do this.

</comment><comment><USER21> I'm impressed.</comment>


MakerBot unveils 3-D scanner - <AUTHOR> http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/08/tech/innovation/makerbot-pettis-sxsw/index.html?c=tech <comment><USER2> How extensible will the 3d files be? Can we convert them to DXF and modify them in AutoCAD now, or will that be added in later?

Even if not, people will still scan and upload scans of common objects, such as the battery cover to a remote control or controller or wiimote. Someone (Google? Make?) will host the Youtube/Github of 3d image scans, where people will freely upload their scans.

And there are all kinds of other prototyping situations where this could be used -- make a model out of clay or balsa or your favorite malleable material, scan it, then print it from the 3d printer.

Which leads to fast physical prototyping -- 3d-print a model, modify it with hand or power tools (box knife, file, dremel), scan, modify the shape file in AutoCAD, 3d-print, modify by hand, scan, modify in AutoCAD, etc.

<comment><USER3> I'd imagine that the software produces STL files. Unfortunately Makerbot only announced this product will exist, they didn't provide any pictures or details yet.

The github style site exists, it's called Thingiverse[1]. People post some amazing stuff. Watching Thingiverse was a big part of why I bought my 3D printer.

I agree that the ability to make something in a medium you're familiar with and take that as a base for 3D modeling seems great. I think some people have tried that using the 3D capture programs that use a series of photographs, but this would certainly work better.

1\. <http://www.thingiverse.com>

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I interviewed at this company almost 10 years ago who made this:

<http://www.nextengine.com/>

seems simliar and I'd imagine a 10 year lead on R&D is a big moat.

<comment><USER5> I doubt MakerBot will target anything like the precision one would assume from that. The printers aren't capable of _very_ high resolution, so it's just not needed. Yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I hope it's more than a simple line scanner given the price estimates. 'Structured Light' perhaps?

I've been using a LCD projector + CCD webcam + Davids Laser Scanner [1] for sometime now to scan large objects (and a laser line scanner for smaller objects). I imagine one could build a consumer friendly setup with an arrary of 5W LEDs, a small LCD/e-ink display, and a bit of magic for fairly cheap.

[1] [http://www.david- laserscanner.com/wiki/david3_user_manual/st...](http://www.david- laserscanner.com/wiki/david3_user_manual/structured_light)

</comment><comment><USER7> The bigger news in this article is that they're trying to 3D-print chocolate! Everything in my apartment looks delicious now, especially those PCI cards.

<comment><USER6> Various RepRap extruders use peristaltic pumps to print chocolate, ceramics, etc.

[http://richrap.blogspot.com/2012/04/universal-paste- extruder...](http://richrap.blogspot.com/2012/04/universal-paste-extruder- ceramic-food.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is great. I hope to see this feature built into their printer someday.</comment>


Ruby Hacking Guide - <AUTHOR> http://rhg.rubyforge.org/

<comment><USER2> I guess this is a fundamental step for the Ruby ecosystem.

I've heard many times people complaining that Ruby's internals are not well documented yet or if they are it's been mostly done in japanese only.

Will this serve the cause and finally break the barrier between occidental and oriental sides of Ruby code development?</comment>


Expired patent of the day: Lego - <AUTHOR> http://boingboing.net/2011/10/21/expired-patent-of-the-day-lego.html <comment><USER2> Legos are beautiful. Elegant mathematical / engineering wise.

</comment><comment><USER3> Just in time too with 3D printers becoming more and more popular.

<comment><USER4> Judging by how badly the Chinese imitation lego bricks stick together it is apparently not quite so easy to make proper bricks. I wonder if you can achieve the right "stickiness" within the manufacturing tolerances of a 3D printer.

<comment><USER5> I am guessing not - apparently Lego production has tolerances around 0.01mm ([http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTemplating/AboutUsFactsA...](http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTemplating/AboutUsFactsAndFiguresContent/otherfiles/download98E142631E71927FDD52304C1C0F1685.pdf)) and 3D printer tolerances at best seem to be around hundredths of an inch?

Although I agree that some of the knockoffs are significantly not as good (in that they don't click together properly), I would have loved to be able to create my own Lego bricks in my younger days and I'd probably put up with them being a bit slack if I had to. I wonder if Lego are worried - things would be pretty grim for them if in 10 years time any child could download and print out any set of interlocking bricks that they wanted...

<comment><USER6> And Lego has seen this coming for years and done a lot of amazing things to reinvent itself. They had similar problems during the 90's with knockoff products and such, and was almost bankrupt at some point.

They've introduced Lego Technic and later Mindstorm, which patented or not has no good competitors right now. Lego has a good brand name and a good product in a niche! Also, Lego Land in Denmark is awesome!

I think kids for many generations will find joy in some kind of Lego products! At least I hope so, it's the best things ever!

<comment><USER5> I disagree about the reinvention. It may just be my advancing age showing, but when I try to buy a Christmas present for my cousin it is rather annoying that the majority of the sets seem to be Star Wars or Harry Potter which to me rather defeat the point of Lego, especially since the pieces tend to be a lot more specific to the particular set than I remember from my youth.

Technic has been around for 20 years or more, since I had that back in my childhood.

I agree that overall it's a great toy and a great brand, I just think that they're going to have problems maintaining their current revenues if producing your own became practical, especially since it's not at all cheap in a store.

<comment><USER7> It probably is just your old age :-)

I just got my 11 y-o son (yet another) Lego Star Wars set for his birthday and it's amazing the things he makes. Day 1 is just building whatever Star Wars thingy the set is about.

Days 2 - infinity are taking the existing thousands of Lego blocks (that he has sorted into color-coded bins: the only organization I've ever seen him do) and building all sorts of crap out of it. So we end up with Boba Fett fighting Harry Potter on top of Hogwarts with the Indiana Jones's office addition!

And all I can do is build Indy an LED lamp for his desk.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I suspect that it won't matter one tiny bit that its expired. I know if I had children I'd certainly pay a few dollars extra to get the real deal.

Tried, tested, compatible with other pieces and most importantly safe for kids.

The only thing that will come from this is that Lego's profit margin will take a minor hit.

* Edited for typo

</comment><comment><USER9> No I know what has been wrong all my life. I am missing the block from Fig. 1.

</comment><comment><USER10> interesting how, when first invented, the bumps went down

kinda makes more sense to have the top side flat - but just feels so wrong to me now.... interesting

<comment><USER11> Isn't that just a matter of how you hold the brick?!

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Would a custom - bespoke - lego shop work? I.e. I need a piece like this, so I order them made on a 3d printer and mailed to me?

<comment><USER7> How much would you pay?

As an aside, I really don't know why people get so excited about 3D printing to the exclusion of all other manufacturing methods. Lego blocks could easily be made to the accuracy required on a milling machine using technology that's 100 years old. And it would be much faster than printing.

3D printing is certainly useful, but it gets way too much press. About the only reason I can think of is that it's easier to DIY a RepRap than a CNC milling machine due to the much smaller forces required.

<comment><USER12> 3d printing in this case would be faster than manually using a milling machine. cnc could work though. I thought it would be more of a "this is clever" though i can't imagine charging more than $1-2/block and no clue if anyone would pay that. I haven't bought a lego in 20 years.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> " Judges agreed with experts who said a brick was a technical shape which could not be trademarked."

Odd that the unique pattern of interlocking holes and columns on a Lego brick is obvious and technical.

While a tablet computer being shaped like the piece of paper it replaces is protected

<comment><USER14> I think you're confusing trademarks with patents.

Trademarks are to protect brand names and brand identities. Patents are to protect inventions and technical and design concepts.

Lego could, and did, get patents for the blocks. That's the entire point of the Boingboing article - the patent was granted and has since expired.

<comment><USER15> To be honest, the linked article references both.

The Lego was patented 50 years ago. Patent terms generally range from 17-20 years (from issue or filing date). So Lego's original patent expired long ago.

Patents cover functional inventions.

Also mentioned is an earlier Boing-Boing story in which functional aspects of the Lego brick design were denied trademark protection.

Copyright (not mentioned in the article) and trademark do _not_ cover functional design, but literal expression (copyright) and trade dress (trademark). So, a rectangular brick functionally compatible with Lego bricks made by Acme, Inc., and branded appropriately, doesn't infringe Lego's trademark for its _functional_ aspects. Even if these mean that the visual design of the brick is highly similar to a Lego brick (as it would have to be).

Similar findings have been made in copyright law, particularly Sega v. Accolade, in which case a literal reference as part of the activation code of a compatible game was found to be _functional_ , and hence, not a _copyright_ infringement.

<comment><USER13> Lego had a patent on the design of the bricks 50 years ago - but failed to get a trademark on the shape of the bricks.

Apple got a design patent on the general shape of the iPad. Design patents are a convenient way to get around the fact that trademarks offer much less protection than patents and are generally assessed rather more sensibly.

<comment><USER16> Design patents are an abuse of patent law.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Infer: Inference and Machine Learning in Clojure - <AUTHOR> http://github.com/bradford/infer

<comment><USER2> It's probably worth pointing out that this project has no relation to Infer.NET (I don't think so, anyway), another machine learning library from Microsoft Research and written in F#.

<comment><USER3> And why is this even called Infer? It's not doing inference...

BTW, Infer.NET is written in C#, but there is an F# wrapper.

<comment><USER2> Cheers, my bad.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> It looks interesting - I browsed a few of the tests. That said, unless a project has at least several pages of how to get started docs with a few real examples, I usually pass on it.</comment>


Ask HN: Who Are the Hong Kong Protesters? - <AUTHOR> I'm not one who follows all news very closely, but the HK protests seem to me like a very modern conflict, that's why it intrigues me. I see a lot of info about _why_ there are protests, and _what_ is happening. But I have a hard time finding info about _who_ these protesters are. Most pieces I read seem to glance over this, making them in to a combination of pawns and heroes. But it takes a lot of time and risk and resources to be in these battles I see on social media.<p>Anyone has info or a good article about this part? <comment><USER2> Battles on social media? The whole city is out there protesting against mainland china encroaching on their rights. Just like any people who feel oppressed at any point in time they are trying to do something about it. While sovereign entities rarely form without military conflicts, it has happened. So the answer to your question is that they are people who hope that their freedom doesn't have to be backed by violence.

My advice is to just watch twitch streams from HKers live. Directly from the source. :)

Also just going to throw this one in here: HK police are largely replaced by mainland chinese at this point, so it's really not surprising to hear about the police violence.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks,

>Battles on social media?

just to be clear: I meant that social media was where _I_ encountered the battles that are _fought_ in the streets.

>So the answer to your question is that they are people who hope that their freedom doesn't have to be backed by violence.

I think my question is more practical (maybe too naive?): are these a fixed group of people that do this full-time: how do they eat, pay for housing in the meantime, get their gear?

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> There isn't 1 type of protester. They are spread over a spectrum, from those who are totally peaceful, to the extreme end who are advocating violence against they "system". They also don;t have all the same demands, although they are generally in agreement of the 5 demands, however because this is a "leader-less" protest, it is hard to say which of those demands are of higher priority than others, i suspect the different factions of protests will have higher priority over certain ones.. e.g. front line protesters would probably value exoneration higher than the peaceful protesters.

But generally speaking, they come from all walks of life... There are now beginning to be more vocal anti-protest groups as well. So it's becoming increasingly a battle for public opinion. Whilst the front-line protesters have general public support, they will feel they have a mandate to continue what they are doing so propaganda machines from both sides are in full effect to try to win over public opinion.

</comment><comment><USER4> these are heroes:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cvabey/hong_kong_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cvabey/hong_kong_citizens_gave_support_and_showed/)

these are pawns:

[https://i.redd.it/i1oy745tnli31.jpg](https://i.redd.it/i1oy745tnli31.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER5> better watch youtube videos on both sides and decide for yourself. best to go there and take a look by yourself.

just to remind you that there are always multiple factions in a protest and their demand could be quite different.</comment>


Quote by Frank Zappa on College - <AUTHOR> http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/show/11553 <comment><USER2> My first thought was, "Go to college and do both.", much like the parent post. However, being educated as a mechanical engineer and self-taught as a sysadmin/developer, I think what is missing here is the influence of teachers. This is a somewhat ironic thought since my engineering professors did little to really give me great insight into engineering or the practice of it. What I do know is this: Someone who wanted to learn administration or development could learn more in one week with me than they would in one year of college or learning by themselves. The information might not be as deeply embedded in their brain as it is in mine, due to all the pain and suffering of figuring things out for myself, but I often wish I'd had a great teacher or mentor. I'm sure my skills would have benefited greatly.

</comment><comment><USER3> My first thought was that I was a complete loser!

But, looking at where I went, who I met, and what life's like on the outside, there's definitely an important part of college life. Everyone around you is the same age and going through the same thing you are. Everyone more experienced than you (e.g. the teachers) are mostly there for your benefit. A real incubator to grow up.

</comment><comment><USER4> Oddly, what I was looking for in college (but never ended up finding) was a woman a few years older who could serve both as mentor and sex partner.

I ended up meeting some hot grad students and getting a bit of stimulation (intellectual and otherwise), but never quite found the right combination -- I wanted someone to whom I could utterly submit intellectually; someone who would teach me patiently and willingly everything she knew, and then, with our hearts and minds open, share a vigorous and uninhibited sexual romp.

<comment><USER5> Hmmm... You like the teachers, eh? Bow chikka wow wow.

But seriously I can relate to this in a way. Intellectual passion with a bit of animalistic release. We can't think /all the time/, right?

I dated a beautiful grad student in philosophy and I used to try and get her to help me with symbolic logic and talk about philosophy over a bottle of wine. She would entertain the idea for a little while, but when she wasn't studying she didn't want to talk shop. I can't say I blame her. The grass is always greener, as they say...

<comment><USER4> true, maybe she considered the relationship applied philosophy and didn't want to pollute it with too much theoretical baggage :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I like this one, and perhaps it's pertinent to the atmosphere of entrepreneurship and individualism here on HN:

"If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT."

</comment><comment><USER7> Colleges usually have libraries. Mine had 4.

<comment><USER8> Pretty good libraries too! Hard to beat an engineering library or a CS library, even with the combination of the internet and a public library.

Of course, if you live near a good university, and you have the discipline to study on your own, and the food and shelter to stay alive while you do it . . .

<comment><USER9> At my school, the library stacks were continuous structures through all 10 or so floors of the building. I guess they carried their own weight, somehow saving on construction of the building addition in which they were housed. On the top floor, were the top of the stacks. It was a check-off on the "been there, done that" list to take a camping pad and sleeping bag up there with someone and spend the night and make love.

So there you go. Go to college, and go to the library, and get laid. (Trifecta?)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> College, libraries, girls, and anything else: all about what you are going to make out of it.

</comment><comment><USER11> Next year I plan to spend much of my time in the libraries at Emory University. Hopefully I will do both. ;) heh

<comment><USER9> See my other post above.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> College is not so much about knowledge, it's about developing intellectually.</comment>


FBI created a fake AP story to apprehend a teenage suspect  - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/28/435415960/department-of-justice-sued-for-fake-news-story

<comment><USER2> "The F.B.I.'s use of such techniques is subject to close oversight, both internally and by the courts that review our work."

I very much doubt there was any court oversight of anything related to this.</comment>


Interview with Hal Abelson on Code Quarterly - <AUTHOR> http://www.codequarterly.com/2011/hal-abelson/

<comment><USER2> Oh, great to see that Code Quarterly is coming along.

Hal Abelson: _My math PhD was in algebraic topology, which had nothing to do with computers. Then I got interested, through thinking about topology, in the relations with distributed computing and that eventually formed a bridge into doing something in computing._

For those wanting to find out a little more about these connections, Herlihy & Rajsbaum, 2000, An Overview of Synchronous Message-Passing and Topology, is a really great place to start.

<http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/mph/HerlihyR96/sv.pdf>

</comment><comment><USER3> Awesome interview that sheds a lot of light on how Abelson thinks programming should be taught. I really wish I could have taken 6.001 instead of 6.01 though as a CS student. I had a bit of an a-ha moment reading about the abstractions Abelson talked about in 6.01, but when I was taking the course, it went straight over my head.

</comment><comment><USER4> If every issue of CQ has an interview of this calibre and quality it's going to be THE essential subscription for the field.

</comment><comment><USER5> _we took my ethics and law course, and then dumbed it down so we could teach it at Harvard_

</comment><comment><USER6> _beautiful_ : ... I've decided that from now on, I should be measuring the quality of my life by the ratio of the amount of time spent programming to the amount of time sitting in meetings.

</comment><comment><USER7> Apart from the great content, I love the typography on the pages. Simple yet elegant. Kudos!

</comment><comment><USER8> I dont know if its just my setup of FireFox 4 but this is really difficult to read

<comment><USER9> it is really difficult to read. supposedly a redesign of the site it coming plus possibility for pdf and epub which some might appreciate.

in the meantime, i'd suggest using something like readability.</comment></comment>


Recruiting smart people - <AUTHOR> http://www.s-anand.net/blog/recruiting-smart-people/

<comment><USER2> > Most smart people would probably help you. For free.

This is the part that I always disagree with. I think smart people's generosity is taken advantage of. If somebody helps you for free, there are free ways you can repay that help. A recommendation, merchandise, discounts, whatever.

If that's the case, then why not do this for smart people you know before they can help you with anything? I think if you prepay good-will, it pays off in spades.

<comment><USER3> I agree. It's like people expect smart people to do all the work because it's easy for them or something. Easier than being lazy. A lot of being "smart" isn't about being smart, but about being willing to do the work.

It takes a while to get good at saying no. People don't like when you say no, but it'll be much better for everyone.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I counted 5 offers in 1 year to work for free for an unspecified share in the venture. What they were asking was, I donate billable hours (cash) and they risk nothing. Smart people are often smart enough to see that con a mile away.</comment>


Enterprise Startups to bet on in 2016 - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/enterprise-startups-to-bet-on-in-2016-2015-11 <comment><USER2> Some of these (most) are not to bet on 2016.</comment>


Designs that Bell Almost Used for the Layout of Telephone Buttons - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/08/the-17-designs-that-bell-almost-used-for-the-layout-of-telephone-buttons/279237/ <comment><USER2> What I particularly like is the fact that, from a purely data-driven perspective, the obvious choice is I-C; the rotary-mimicing layout.

But (I conject) the lower error rate and preference is merely down to familiarity of users with the older rotary system.

So the lesson, for me anyway, is that listening to your users or to your data without applying your own reasoning can easily lead you to the wrong conclusion.

Which is not groundbreaking, but it's nice to have case studies.

<comment><USER2> *edit; it was lower keying time not lower error rate on I-C, but the point remains. I-C is the only layout with more than one special attribute.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Here is the link to the original BSTJ article.

[http://www3.alcatel- lucent.com/bstj/vol39-1960/articles/bstj...](http://www3.alcatel- lucent.com/bstj/vol39-1960/articles/bstj39-4-995.pdf)

<comment><USER4> A friend is doing a PHD related to this subject.

Quite an interesting video of her talking about it if you are interested:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCSzjExvbTQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCSzjExvbTQ)

Edit: Just realised Sarah's video is referenced at the end of the Article.

<comment><USER5> Numberphile in general is great. 5-10 minute chunks of interesting math. Not too long to be boring.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This title stretches the definition of the word "almost". They tested a bunch of varieties and settled on the best one. That doesn't mean the worst of them were "almost used".

<comment><USER7> Sometimes I think I have become so used to the extreme hyperbole of linkbait headlines that I forget it's even there. You're right.

<comment><USER8> Is there a browser extension that ensures I'll never see anything from The Atlantic, Slate, and Business Insider ever again? These sites are profoundly annoying and stressful.

<comment><USER9> You could edit your hosts file and map their domains to 127.0.0.1 or even filter them at your router, if it has that functionality.

<comment><USER10> You'll still see their articles listed on the front page. I think OP is looking for something that would remove it from the site altogether.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I never consciously realized that the phone button layout was different than the calculator/number-pad layout. Weird! I'm curious whether I've misdialed numbers because of that.

<comment><USER12> I've lost my credit card due to that. ATMs have phone layout and i entered my pin using numpad layout three times T_T.

<comment><USER13> Came here to comment the same thing, I can almost blindly type these things out, but the change in the format has caught me out a few times.

My portable GPS unit by default has the ABC layout keyboard, that is just as annoying to use when you are used to QWERTY!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> It's really odd to me that the traditional keyboard 10-key entry pad hasn't switched to the phone number layout. If the phone layout is more efficient and less error prone, why didn't keyboards start with the phone layout and not the calculator layout?

<comment><USER15> Might only be less error prone for entering phone numbers.

<comment><USER16> I was thinking more along the lines of early computer only really being used by people who had a stronger muscle memory for calculator usage than telephone usage.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> It's interesting to think about how the use of one of these alternate layouts would influence today's phones. I wonder what the iOS/Android phone apps would look like with a circular button layout.

<comment><USER18> There was at least Nokia 3650 with something like I-C; I must say I liked its layout but Nokia never continued it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> This makes me wonder how many HackerNews readers have actually used a rotary phone.

<comment><USER20> It's like remembering the screeeeee-krrsssssh-bdang!bdang!bdang!-krrrssssh- click of a dialup modem. It fairly neatly bifurcates generations of nerds.

Rotary phones were quite elegant. As the dial returns to 0, it sends pulses down the line. The pulses actuate series of stepping switches to form the final phone circuit.

<comment><USER21> > Rotary phones were quite elegant. As the dial returns to 0, it sends pulses > down the line. The pulses actuate series of stepping switches to form the > final phone circuit.

Back when I was poor and didn't have a place to live, I would go into a hotel lobby where they had a phone for guests to receive, but not make, calls -- the phone didn't have a dial. I would pick up the handset, wait for a dial tone, then press one of the buttons beneath the handset, ten time really fast. Then I would say, "Hello, operator? I'm handicapped, can you dial a number for me?"

<comment><USER20> Australia's phone system largely skipped past having operators, so the various tricks for getting one to dial for you never worked here.

<comment><USER21> Just as well. Human operators only prolonged unfair and very negative sexual stereotypes.

<comment><USER20> It's ok, we're Australians. We have plenty of other negative sexual stereotypes to pick up any slack.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I wonder how long the telephone number will be around for? Another 10 years? 100?

Do you think 1000 years from now we'll still be using them?

<comment><USER23> Can you rattle off your facebook account number? Chances are, few people are more than semi-consciously aware that such a thing exists.

Chances are the phone number will remain, but it won't be important ... like Facebook, and like modern phones, you deliberately connect with someone. True with modern phones you do consciously give them a number whereas with Facebook you don't (even though it's the underlying account id #'s used by Facebook's infrastructure), but there are other options such as bumping someone's phone with yours to initiate transfer of some piece of data or other.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'm struggling to find a difference between IV-A (the winning design) and VI-A.

Is there a subtle difference? They look the same to me.

If they are the same, why would they have two identical designs?

<comment><USER25> Saw this too. I suspect each row refers to a specific head-to-head test of 3 designs. If so, you should only compare statements within each row, and not vertically.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I remember having a touch-tone phone with the buttons in the positions of the finger holes for a rotary-dial phone. I think it was supposed to look retro?

</comment><comment><USER27> I hope that the cross pattern came with gospel sounds instead of the standard beeps.

</comment><comment><USER28> They should have put the zero before the one.

<comment><USER29> Yes!! It's remarkable that only one or two of the designs had the numbers in order.

I've always wondered about this in regard to keyboards as well: why did anyone ever think it was a good idea to put one of the numbers out of sequence?

<comment><USER30> In case of rotary phones it was much easier to put zero at the end. The old phones used pulses to dial numbers - one pulse meant one, two pulses - two, and so on. Ten pulses meant zero. If they wanted to put zero at the beginning, the dialing mechanism would need to be much more complex.

<comment><USER31> In Sweden, one pulse was (is) used for zero, two pulses for one and so forth. Therefore, old rotary phones havet zero next to one [1]. However, when buttons were introduced de ended up with the same layout as the US.

1:[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Dialog.jp...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Dialog.jpg)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> None of these include the ABCD keys (FLASH OVERRIDE, FLASH, IMMEDIATE, & PRIORITY) used by AUTOVON which started in 1963.

It's interesting that all of these layouts are presented on a round background.

</comment><comment><USER33> Book Recommendation: "Design of Everyday things". A great book,and particularly covers quite a bit about telephones.

Surprised no one has brought this up yet. :-)

</comment><comment><USER34> I like III-B.

It seems to have the least amount of finger-roam of all the layouts.

Yet it offers more keying discernability than VI-A owing to the tiered layout.

<comment><USER35> I wonder if they took the visual mnemonic shortcut we use to remember the numbers into account. That would explain why they settled on a uniform almost square grid.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Based on this sheet, it looks like they decided on the layout we use but wanted testing to back it up.

</comment><comment><USER37> Hm, IV-A and VI-A is the same?

<comment><USER38> From the comments:

2A and 6B are the same too. Maybe the repeats got the best results in the first five sets of trials so they brought them back and pitted them against each other as well as the traditional rotary phone number arrangement in round six. 6A eventually won, obviously.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Aren't VI-A and IV-A the same layout?

<comment> jack-r-abbit Ya. And aren't II-A and VI-B the same? It bothers me that they didn't mention anything about this.</comment></comment>


Netflix FlameScope - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@NetflixTechBlog/netflix-flamescope-a57ca19d47bb <comment><USER2> I've done something like this at Microsoft in 2002. Except in my case it was a multi-user system and each row represented a logical user, or a range of users in a range partitioned space. You could vary granularity, click through to see what's busted, zoom into user ranges, discover correlated failures, discover cases when something is failing for just one user consistently, correlate all of it to performance counters, etc, etc. No one gave a shit.

<comment><USER3> What did you use to build it?

<comment><USER2> IIRC the standard MS stack at the time: C#, ASP.NET (which had just come out), MS SQL, IE, some in memory caching and bitmap rendering (canvas didn't exist), AJAX. Pretty bleeding edge, but it all worked OK.

<comment><USER4> Given when you were using that then-bleeding-edge stack, I wonder if you used XML (ie, the "X" in the then-acronym AJAX _).

_ later de-acronym-ized to "Ajax" w/ JSON replacing XML.

<comment><USER2> Of course. JSON wasn't popularized back then. But mostly it was about reloading parts of the page through DOM manipulation.

<comment><USER4> Yeah, I was there too. (Web dev for a living since 1998.) I remember sending HTML fragments over the wire too...

<comment><USER5> If data were in XML format, XSLT could be used from javascript (or vbscript) in the browsr for the DOM generation. Was pretty slick up to a point, but since it was a blocking operation anything beyond a certain size started to noticeably lock up the browser.

<comment><USER2> I've done some of that as well, in different contexts. Those were the days. Virgin territory, uncomplicated, no cross-browser concerns. I haven't touched frontend since 2005, and looking at it now it's horrifying. Even the hairiest C++ backend is easier for me now, just because once you write it it doesn't need to be "updated" for the next decade. Frontend seems to change every 6 months for no apparent benefit.

<comment><USER4> > "no cross-browser concerns"

wat.

the original browser wars? ns vs ie? 2 incompatible implementations w/ no tooling to help?

<comment><USER2> It was a Microsoft tool for Windows only. There wasn't even a question that other browsers should not be supported.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is lovely. An interesting thing to think about here is the layout of the sequential time-series data. This visualisation breaks the sequence out into columns, which means that squares that are close to each other in the sequence don't cluster visually.

I've played with using space-filling curves for this to visualise binaries:

[https://binvis.io/](https://binvis.io/)

You can play around on there with the scan layout (similar to the Netflix layout) and compare it to the Hilbert curve. You can click and drag to select regions in both (similar to the video for this visualisation).

There are tradeoffs - the Hilbert layout is not intuitive, and you have to play around to select regions accurately. On the other hand, the clustering lets you visually pick hotspots in much greater detail, e.g.:

[https://binvis.io/#/view/examples/tcpview.exe.bin?colors=ent...](https://binvis.io/#/view/examples/tcpview.exe.bin?colors=entropy)

I've found it useful to be able to toggle between both scanning and clustered layouts, and plan to explore some more interaction paradigms when I get time to turn back to the project.

<comment><AUTHOR> I did binary visualizations many years ago too:

[https://github.com/brendangregg/Dump2PNG/wiki](https://github.com/brendangregg/Dump2PNG/wiki)

So with the subsecond-offset heat map, you get clustering from one column to the next for events that happen at the same time offset. Which is common with periodic tasks: see the example patterns in the post.

<comment><USER6> It looks like we've traveled a similar path. The precursor to binvis is scurve, a (slow, dodgy) command-line tool to do basically what dump2png does:

[https://github.com/cortesi/scurve](https://github.com/cortesi/scurve)

I have a blazing fast command-line version of binvis in Rust that I plan to release in the next month or so. I really need make some time to turn back to this.

<comment><USER7> Wow I haven't seen your name in years, I had forgotten! I just want to thank you for having an incredible blog and visualization tools. sortvis.org was frequently a resource I used to learn sorting and then later as a tutor I shared it with other students to help them learn. I've shared sortvis and the posts you did on hilbert curves with young curious family members to inspire them, and it always did! So thank you!

And Brendans blog has been more recently inspiring and educational, seeing you guys chatting on HN is too cool. Thank you both for the awesome and freely accessible material.

<comment><USER6> My pleasure! Sortvis is down at the moment, but will be back up soon. I've been swallowed up in other projects, but I have a perpetual new year's resolution to write more blog posts. Keep an eye out in the next few months. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Link to the repo -- [https://github.com/Netflix/flamescope](https://github.com/Netflix/flamescope)

From a quick glance, it's interesting to see both Flask and Node.JS be used within the same project repo. Is this becoming more commonplace?

<comment><USER9> Not Node.JS specifically, but just npm for dependencies and task running to build the React client from source. If you're not looking to build the client from source, the distributed client bundle should suffice and only Python is required.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> > a) could not reliably capture a one minute flame graph covering the issue, > as the onset of it kept fluctuating; b) capturing a two or three minute > flamegraph didn't help either, and the issue was "drowned" in the normal > workload profile. Vadim asked me for help.

One interesting thing here is also the statistical nature of this problem: i.e. there are spikes but their duration are not exact or known when to start. Here[1] is some reference work done on Neural Spike Trains that seems relevant.

[1][http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~liam/teaching/neurostat- spr12/...](http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~liam/teaching/neurostat- spr12/papers/brown-et-al/time-rescaling.pdf)

</comment><comment><USER11> Wow, great visualization! Thanks for sharing the source.

A minor suggestion: For the first part of the demo i was thrown of by the fact that each second as laid out bottom->top. Maybe moving the time labels below the plot would provide a visual cue for the direction.

<comment><USER12> I think this is intentional, as the norm is for 0 on a Y-axis to be at the bottom and increase going up.

I can understand why it's confusing, and perhaps could be a UI option to reverse it, but I do think that's the reason.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, that's the reason! It means we get a t=0 origin for both the x- and y-axis. But yes, we can also add UI options to reverse it and other things.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Does anyone have any good tools or processes for generating the kind of performance counters and information needed by this tool with a running python application?

I'd love to be able to generate a flamegraph for a django app, for example, and visualise it with flame scope.

[https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python- dev/2014-November/1...](https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python- dev/2014-November/136981.html) discusses the problems with python and the `perf` tool. There may have been some patches applied recently to help, but it doesn't look like there was a full resolution.

<comment><USER14> Not a direct answer, but there's Python support of some sort available for at least TAU <[https://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/tau/home.php>](https://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/tau/home.php>), Extrae <[https://tools.bsc.es/extrae>](https://tools.bsc.es/extrae>), and Score-P <[https://github.com/score-p/scorep_binding_python>](https://github.com/score-p/scorep_binding_python>).

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> What's the purpose of visualizing it as grid? I thought it might be good for debugging periodic events (e.g., every 16ms for rendering at 60fps) but it seems like this is fixed to one sec for one column.

For example in the flame graph in chrome's performance tab, you can select/slice/zoom/pan arbitrary time ranges. If you want the high level view you just zoom out.

<comment><AUTHOR> Supporting different y-axis ranges is something we can add, and I was already thinking of adding a 1ms range for visualizing low-level CPU cycle activities (which span nano and microseconds). I like the idea of 16ms for 60fps analysis, where every column is one frame. Could help game development. :)

<comment><USER16> Actually, seeing the diagonal stripes in the examples [1], maybe it'd be useful to have a mode that lets you rescale the axes to line the stripes up? If you're using this to inspect patterns, it seems to me that the most useful time scale would not be a nice round human number, it'd be one that matches well with the patterns you're trying to inspect - one period, not one second.

Way out in the distance, maybe even a variable-interval mode, where you can click-select blocks and each one is given its own column, so you can directly compare them without the dead space in the middle and starting from the same baseline?

[1] Particularly striking: [https://cdn- images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*EypUnkPtayeKr9bJu...](https://cdn- images-1.medium.com/max/2000/1*EypUnkPtayeKr9bJuvgNEg.png)

<comment><USER17> You could autoscale the y axis to whatever makes the columns have the most similarity (minimize squared differences).

<comment><USER18> Rather than lsq, you could use autocorrelation within rows to line them up.

<comment><USER19> This thing is extremely periodic. You should do an FFT, there should be a peak that's more obvious than the others. That's your frequency and thus your period.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Nice. I had some search cluster optimization problems that this would have been very handy for. I laughed when I got to "Ah, that's Java garbage collection," as that turned out to be one of the big contributors to variance in response time.

</comment><comment><USER21> Longer video with more examples: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRawd7CO-Q8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRawd7CO-Q8)

</comment><comment><USER22> Awesome!

It'd be pretty sweet if you could send things sampled using Vector over to FlameScope. I know the flamegraphs PMDA is experimental but it's always worked fine for me :)

(It'd also be pretty sweet if there was a fleshed out PMDA for bcc tools. And Vector supported them. And, and, and... I have a really long wishlist.)

<comment><AUTHOR> We'll get it done (although I'm not exactly sure who "we" will end up being yet!). I improved the flamegraph PMDA late last year, but how FlameScope works is really the direction Vector should go: being able to make an API call to get the flame graph stacks as JSON, and then render them in d3, along with buttons for transforms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> What's the advantage of this sort of thing over the trace and profile analysis tools that have been developed at least for HPC performance engineering over many years? (E.g. the BSC tools <[https://tools.bsc.es/>](https://tools.bsc.es/>) amongst several others.) In particular, why are flame graphs preferred to the normal inclusive/exclusive views of profiles which seem more generally useful to me?

</comment><comment><USER23> I know I am missing something, but passing -F 49 to perf will tell the kernel to adjust the sampling interval dynamically so approximately 49 events/s are recorded, right?

But then how does it make sense to plot the number of events per second in the overview? Or what exactly is being plotted in the overview?

Edit: Perhaps it is simply that idle events are discarded and multiple CPUs allow more than one event in the period?

</comment><comment><USER24> Haven't followed up on this lately — is sampling java stacktraces with perf going well? what happened to the frame pointer issue? do we still have to use -XX:+PreserveFramePointer to get the full stack?

Awesome tool nevertheless. Always a pleasure to go through Brendan's utilities regarding performance analysis!

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, perf sampling of Java is still going well, via -XX:+PreserveFramePointer. Our one microservice that had high overhead with that option (up to 10%, which is rare) has improved their code, lowered the overhead, and now enabled this option by default.

But there's also a newer way that can do Java stack sampling from perf without the frame pointer: [https://github.com/jvm-profiling-tools/async- profiler](https://github.com/jvm-profiling-tools/async-profiler)

We're not running it yet. I want to try it out. Note that the stacks with async-profiler are a bit broken -- Java methods become detached from the JVM -- but I'm hoping that's fixable (it should be with a JVM change, at least).

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> All the native linux thread stack visualizers I have used so far lack a way to show single-threaded bottlenecks in multi-threaded applications. Does this solve it?

In the java ecosystem this is solved with utilization timelines.

<comment><USER14> I don't know which of the normal parallel performance tools support Java, but at least TAU <[https://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/tau/docs.php>](https://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/tau/docs.php>) does; not that I've worked on Java, which should preferably be kept well away from compute nodes.

<comment><USER25> Oh, my question wasn't about java. Quite the opposite. I'm missing the perf equivalent of some java tools I am accustomed to.

<comment><USER14> I don't know what "perf equivalent" means. Parallel performance tools usually use PAPI, which provides similar data, possibly a superset of perf data on Linux. Score-P has an actual perf plugin. [http://www.vi- hps.org/training/material/](http://www.vi-hps.org/training/material/) is one source of material on such things, though biased towards distributed (MPI) systems and OpenMP threading.

[Sorry I hadn't realized <> wasn't work as URL delimiters here, as I'm used to elsewhere since the RFC <URL:...> convention got ignored.]

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Pretty awesome - I recall a long time ago a few companies selling software that would do similar (but different) things, so this can help us get closer.

</comment><comment><USER27> Given the existence of tools like this or [https://github.com/uber/pyflame](https://github.com/uber/pyflame), I get really amazed at the monopoly of NewRelic. Nobody seems to be even attempting a start-up in this space, which is amazing given the amount of money that everyone coughs up for NewRelic.

</comment><comment><USER28> What was the root cause of the problem that motivated this visualization tool?

<comment><AUTHOR> It's described in the blog post under "Origin", and the sample profile that we ship with FlameScope (examples/perf.stacks01) and which I used in the video is the first minute of the original problem.

It was intermittent latency that was hard to explain using existing tools.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Can this be used with Node.js CPU Profiles?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I've already used it on Node.js profiles. :) Get any instructions for doing CPU flame graphs with Linux perf (I've written several), and take the output stage of "perf script" and you can browse it in FlameScope.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I wish they wouldnt host this on Medium, the pop-ups and layout are maddening and it almost seems unprofessional for a giant company like Netflix to use Medium instead of its own blog platform on their website.

<comment> herrvogel- Yes, Medium has terrible reading experience. I found this extension ([https://github.com/thebaer/MMRA](https://github.com/thebaer/MMRA)) a while ago. You should try it.

<comment><USER31> I keep reading comments like this, but I don't ever see any particularly glaring issues when reading from my iPad. Is it a desktop / chrome thing that iOS / Safari is automatically mitigated against, or are my standards just so low that I don't notice the issues?

<comment><USER32> Maybe they don't do it on mobile but on desktop they have a pop-up demanding you create an account to keep reading.

<comment><USER33> Even when I open the link in an incognito window, I don't see this pop-up. Do you need to be on the page for X time to see it?

<comment><USER34> Second request in a certain period, I think. I opened this link twice. The second time I got the pop-up, which starts out with something like "We've seen you here before...". I just tried a third time and it did _not_ create a popup.

As things go, I think they're actually handling that part fairly well.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


India Shut Down Kashmir's Internet Access - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/technology/india-kashmir-internet.html <comment><USER2> _Shopkeepers said that vital supplies like insulin and baby food, which they typically ordered online, were running out. Cash was scarce, as metal shutters covered the doors and windows of banks and A.T.M.s, which relied on the internet for every transaction. Doctors said they could not communicate with their patients._

While nobody expects a war in their city, it's yet another example of why none of us should rely on the internet as our sole means of doing anything.

Imagine a city where cashless transactions were the norm. Then imagine some political group (internal or external) decides to cut off the internet to that city.

<comment><USER3> While I understand where you're coming from, I don't agree with this sentiment.

Imagine saying this about electricity or gasoline. Modern cities would be completely shut down without these resources, and we should treat the Internet in the same way - as a vital resource that we simply accept as present except in the most egregious or catastrophic circumstances.

<comment><USER4> > _Imagine saying this about electricity or gasoline_

You can store both in dunks and batteries.

If someone invents a way to bottle spare internet, that's the next unicorn for sure :)

<comment><USER5> Satellite internet, with batteries or a generator, works even when local conflict shuts down pretty much everything else.

<comment><USER6> Satellite Internet access would also be shutdown in a scenario like this, since it would be the government permitting or denying who operates a satellite to provide such services and the associated spectrum used...unless other countries or individuals are able to put up satellites to help people in oppressive regimes (slightly similar to the concept of Tor). Is there something like this? Perhaps neighboring countries that do not agree with the regime's decisions (like Pakistan in this case) could help. India demonstrated the ability to bomb low orbit satellites a few months ago. With the current regime showing no hesitation to bring two nuclear countries close to a war, all bets are off for such efforts by Pakistan.

<comment><USER5> Blocking satellites is much harder than shutting off the internet by ordering the telcos to. Jamming is possible, but takes a large commitment. Destroying satellites from unaligned countries is an even larger commitment, and not a great plan if you want to keep them unaligned.

In practice satellite very often works when nothing else does.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Am Kashmiri. Was born there. Have family there. My parents were born and raised there. This is scary even for a region marked by persistent curfews, border clashes between two nuclear powers, and an ongoing series of conflicts between insurgents and the Indian Army. We have extended family from whom we haven't heard any news since this went into effect. It's all just anxious waiting.

What could possibly be the endgame from this unless you're trying to actively foment rebellion? How can this have any widespread support?

<comment><USER8> What's the status of other forms of communication, like postal mail or shortwave radio?

<comment><USER9> Mail has been banned as well. Cable TV was banned according to initial reports but recent reports say cable TV is now allowed. No idea about radio stations.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Shutting down the internet in an effort to "keep the peace" is _really_ dystopian: how do Indian citizens stand for it?

<comment><USER11> I don't think you are aware about Kashmir's situation prior to the abrogation of the article. Stone-pelting(sponsored by seperatists) and murder of civilians by terrorists were common. There is also significant amount of Pakistan-backed propaganda in the valley. Pakistanis have already flooded the internet with photos/videos from Syria, Palestine etc. and are claiming them to be from Kashmir. Considering this, what do you think would've happened if communication was fully open?

Is the communication blockade bad? Yes.

Is it necessary to keep the peace? Yes.

<comment><USER12> You cannot have peace by coercion. Period. It will either be an illusion or delusion.

<comment><USER13> There are many instances in history where coercion was required to bring peace, especially in "bad situations" ranging from war to insurgencies to domestic terrorism. Most notable examples: Germany in 1945, Japan in 1945, counterinsurgency in Iraq in 2007-08, rooting out LTTE in Sri Lanka in 2009.

<comment><USER12> May be I should have clarified a bit more. I am talking about coercion of the native populace of an internal region by its own government. The first two were global conflicts. The last one may qualify but again it is a self-serving cycle. You create a situation which leads to a region revolting and then you need to pacify it through force.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Mesh networks please! Briar, Meshenger , heck maybe we need to make a cell phone app to provide internet connection sharing over WiFi and or Bluetooth ad hoc networks.

Can it replace full isps? Almost never. Can it enable light text based things like emails, ordering supplies or cashless trxns? Maybe...

The biggest problem is scale of course, having such a large geographic area would require most of the population to have this mesh app active at once plus several 'exit nodes' with access to actual isp traffic somewhere in other regions.

IDK this is a spitball reaction that I considered not posting as it doesn't seem very thought provoking like normal HN comments but if it Sparks discussion then it will have done its job.

</comment><comment><USER15> Until recently, I had a strongly positive impression of India, as an outsider: rapidly modernizing, forward thinking and tolerant. Indians I meet in real life certainly tend to reinforce that position. However, I stumbled upon Indian Twitter during the election campaign, and I have been shocked by the vicious hatred and massive troll armies, that exceed anything I've noticed elsewhere. I imagine that WhatsApp is worse. The shocking behaviour has greatly diminished my opinion of the country, and it now strikes me as a powder-keg of hate.

The article mentions that the internet is being promoted as a way of advancing the country...if that's advancement, it may be better for India to hit the brakes.

<comment><USER16> You judged a country of a billion people by two small subsets. No country has as diverse a people as India. It comes with its own set of problems. "don't use the internet" reeks of such privilege.

<comment><USER15> That's a reasonable point, and I do try to keep some perspective. The number of "likes" and retweets for the hateful posts does seem to scale for India's massive population.

India also has a long history of deadly "communal violence", something that doesn't really happen in other democracies. If questioning whether it's wise for companies like Twitter and WhatsApp to allow incitement for violence to exist in such an environment is regarded as "privilege", so be it.

<comment><USER17> There is a reason for proliferation of hate on Twitter and that is the skewed form of secularism that the Indian state has followed all these years. Those who have lived in India know that most of the time the state is lenient towards minorities even when they commit crimes. Even history has been whitewashed to portray invaders as benign rulers so as to not offend minorities. In some ways the Indian Natinal Congress turned the country's polity into minoritarianism because they realized they could continue winning elections with just their votes (this statement is a bit of a simplification). The majority which has silently been observing this got a voice with the advent of social media. For someone who doesn't have this context, Indians will of course look hateful and communal.

<comment><USER16> Every party panders to their vote bank. It isn't different from anywhere. Just so you know my original point wasn't proBJP or pro INC. Secularism and diversity is hard. That doesn't mean we forget our tenets

<comment><USER17> I am not taking any sides either. I am just giving the context for current events.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> India is preventing the fate of Yugoslavia.

It would have been occupation if Kashmiris had lesser rights but that's not the case. People don't ask what rights did people of Kashmir didn't have that people of India had since 1947.

India is a country of diverse religions, and ethnic groups. If a minority group demands separate nation should you give autonomy to it? If London becomes Muslim majority, and demands separation, should England give in to that demand?

If India gives away Kashmir, it means you can never trust minority of your country because they can ask for separate nation and the world will support that demand.

Do we really think that helps the cause of minorities in India or any other country in the world?

<comment><USER11> It's not just about the religion. Pakistan will most likely use Kashmir as a terror launchpad against other regions of India. From India's perspective, the region is strategic than anything else.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> At what point is a region so distinct from the state in which it resides that the best course of action would be secession? When I read the news I see conflicts in integration every where: Hong Kong, Kashmir, Kurdish Syria / Turkey. My general feeling is that due to a number of factors (imperialism, war, etc.) that our current global map just doesn't reflect the reality of international relations, unfortunately border disputes are rarely resolved peacefully...

<comment><USER20> Balkanization has been tried, you know. Thousands of times. That doesn't work so well either. It sounds glib and naive, but at the end of the day the path to peace is just for people to stop fighting, forgive past sins and learn to live with each other.

And generally that happens only after they get wealthy. Which makes shutting down core civil infrastructure deeply counterproductive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> >Kashmir, an area of 12.5 million people that is claimed by both India and Pakistan and has long been a source of tension.

There is also a portion of the area that is claimed by China.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir#/media/File:...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir#/media/File:Kashmir_region_2004.jpg)

<comment><USER22> Given to China by Pakistan who didn't have right to it in the first place as per UN

<comment><USER23> Shakshagam valley has been ceded to China by Pakistan as it not was contiguous territory, so Pakistan got Brownie points. Aksai Chin was not given by Pakistan to China.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I generally try to stay away from threads related to Kashmir across social media because they tend to be toxic with people having absolutely no regard for democracy and basic human decency towards others. I thought HN discussion would be better and while it was a little better, it turned out to be more or less the same. In retrospect, I shouldn't have expected otherwise.

<comment><USER23> Speak for people who are silenced. Don't let overwhelming propaganda demotivate you, the article stands for itself. Propaganda in here is actually transparent and future visitors will be able to discern it. Make their job easier.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> If anybody wants to read in detail about Kashmir issue from outsider, check this [https://www.lawfareblog.com/indias-move-kashmir-unpacking- do...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/indias-move-kashmir-unpacking-domestic-and- international-motivations-and-implications)

<comment><USER25> Hindu Chauvinist party. Really? There are dozens of countries with Islamic constitutions. Do we call all their leaders Islamic nationalists? There is a serious effort to malign democratic norms in India unless it is only for Islam, which was the state of affairs for J&K. Hindus in Jammu and Ladakh which were part of the state of J&K were second class citizens. That has been removed. Property rights of females is also restored unlike the Kashmiri Sharia influenced constitution.

Kashmiri separatism is another in the line of Islamic jihadi separatism. It was co-opted by the Pakistanis because they only consider that Muslims can live ruled by Mullahs and Sharia and an Islamic constitution.

You will probably find 75% people in India or more in agreement with Modi's action. The whip of the largest opposition party quit his party because he agreed with BJP's actions. Remember that the resolutions passed parliament with 66% of votesin the Rajya Sabha and 84% in the Lok Sabha. That is greater than the numbers of the BJP so many other parties joined them in this.

India's 1.3 billion people will have no problem fighting another war with Pakistan if again attacked over Kashmir.

The international media might as well get used to it.

<comment><USER26> I hear that Janata party trying to get Jan Sangh people to resign their affiliations went over like a lead balloon in the seventies. BTW, Kashmiris liked them. RSS people can keep their membership and be called secular?

<comment><USER25> Hinduism is secular. Where have historically persecuted people of the world gone? To Hindu India. Indian Hindus are why Zorastrian people still exists as a religion. They had to flee Iran and Islamic domination hundreds of years ago.

Hindu India has its share of casteism, which is a real problem. That I can agree with.

<comment><USER27> There is a zorastrian presence in Iran.

In fact, Iran hosts the greatest number of the world minorities than any other country. Even those that have been thought of as extinct.

<comment><USER11> I somewhere read that Zorastrianism was once the primary religion of Perisan Empire? Would like to know what exactly has caused their numbers to dwindle so much.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> We have so many satellites up there that can stream photos of specific locations.

Can those companies fund a few days' worth of live streaming of key areas? It gives everybody an option to see the reality/facts instead of opinions.

Nobody knows whom to trust in these crisis times and everything appears as an opinion of an individual or a small group.

<comment><USER29> > Can those companies fund a few days'

I assume these companies dont want any trouble from the Indian Govt if they have business in India.

<comment><USER23> Planet's satellites use Indian launch vehicles due to their economic viability. They were muted in their response to Debris in outer soace due to Indian anti satellite test.

<comment><USER30> Any support for your statement? If not, can you stop commenting on this thread? IMO you have degraded this thread enough.

<comment><USER23> Degraded? Oh, is it looking bad for India? Then India should stop doing bad things. 10 Million people are caged right now, while you can express yourself and you have the audacity to try to mute me too now.

Here's your source, I am not into bullshit:

"While Planet enjoys a great working partnership with agencies of India's government — like ISRO — we categorically condemn the anti-satellite missile intercept recently conducted by India's defense department," the San Francisco-based company tweeted March 27. "Space should be used for peaceful purposes, and destroying satellites on orbit severely threatens the long-term stability of the space environment for all space operators. Planet urges all space-capable nations to respect our orbital commons."

Planet will still not be boycotting ISRO and using them for the upcoming launch of 5th series of Dove satellites.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> In a historical sense, when a government shut off communications out of some place somewhere, has there been a time they were just doing good things? In a Bayesian sense, I feel like any time someone is saying "Nobody from inside here can tell anyone outside anything", that someone isn't really doing good things.

I wonder if it's worthwhile to install some sort of LibertyWeb that forms a meshnet+satellite internet that allows text through, just in case governments turn authoritarian.

</comment><comment><USER32> Does anyone notice that in the video there are kids holding guns, at around 00:54 and 01:11? I hope they are not real.

<comment><USER33> The Steyr TMP is definitely an injection moulded plastic toy. The Makarov also appears to be plastic but the light makes it hard to see for sure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> The shutdown is because 10% of the population of Indian Kashmir is hardcore wahabi sunni and holding the rest of it to ransom. People forget the 45% non muslim population suffering and the rest muslim population who dont turn up to these stone pelting protests.

</comment><comment><USER26> Get a load of this: [https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/1161161663493464064](https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/1161161663493464064)

If J&K Police has some cell in Srinagar writing form letters to Twitter in San Francisco every time someone posts something they don't like God help them when the Internet comes back on.

</comment><comment><USER35> Wow. Matters always get heated up when J&K comes up. Folks, chill out. This is HN, not one of the toxic comment cesspools around the internet.

IMO, the removal of article 370 was a good move because:

\- Article 370 was originally meant to be temporary. Central governments before the current one did not have the will, numbers and political spine to get it done.

\- Kashmir, as it was, would have been fine if it was a progressive and developing state. Yes, it has developed compared what the situation was before, but give the amount of money that is poured in there per capita, compared to the rest of the country, is a lot! And it does not reach the people.

\- The traditional Federal and State government model works decently well but it does not work with Kashmir and the local government could pick and choose only the new rules and amendments they liked. Anecdote: Kashmir government has a tenure of 6 years, the rest of India: 5 years. India had made that provision for a short time and was rolled back. Since it was more convenient for Kashmiri politicians, it was adopted and kept.

\- Indian Supreme Court rulings did not always apply to Kashmir.

\- The new Union Territory of Ladakh wanted to be so for a long time.

\- Local politicians loved article 370. It gave them the autonomy to get more money and leverage to keep themselves in power. They often walked a diplomatic line so as to keep the money lines open from India and keep Pakistan engaged and enticed.

\- Regional and religious Separatists thrives in J&K, often getting financed by Pakistan and inciting the people and youth in J&K. These money sources are being cut off since months now, slowing reducing the illicit finances to these activities.

\- From what I have seen from interviews of locals, people are happy to angry about the change, while some are just unhappy with the 'change' as they had adapted to the conditions.

Now, about the way it was done: \- the central government did the necessary groundwork to identify threats and risks. \- recalled all tourists, pilgrims and out of state students from the area. \- Sent in army platoons to maintain law and order situation. \- clamped down on local leadership \- took down the internet services \- increases alertness along the Pakistan border.

Though I would personally hate to be in this situation, I think I understand and appreciate why it was done.

Absence of even some of the above measures would have resulted in the spread of massive misinformation or even propaganda and resulted in violent incidents on scale. Local politicians and separatists would be the ones to provoke this as removal of article 370 had a direct impact on their power and influence. The situation could have been dire and the same opposition parties would have been singing a different tune as to 'why were adequate measures not taken'?

The restrictions are already being phased out and I hope the life for general population normalizes soon.

All this is done, but what next?

The removal of article 370 has had multiple challenges in the Supreme Court, so it has yet to be seen how it plays out. Also, there is a lot of work that needs to be done there in the coming years to win over the trust of the local populace. Security threats may increase - as it can be easily seen how unhappy Pakistan is with the removal of article 370. Those have to be tackled.

How this move actually works out depends on how the government tackles the upcoming hurdles, and J&K being a UT would certainly help them.

This is my opinion about the situation and the way it was tacked. Hope I am not downvoted into oblivion for this. Oh, well. :shrug:

</comment><comment><USER36> lol, the pakistani propaganda train has reached ycombinator now.

</comment><comment><USER37> > Jammu and Kashmir, an area of 12.5 million people that is claimed by both > India and Pakistan

It would seem that India has the more practically demonstrable claim.

<comment><USER38> Would your opinion lead you to believe that India should act quickly and remedy the unacceptable state of affairs in which the residents find themselves?

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> This article shows that Internet has to be seen as a basic human right. It's so sad what India is doing to the Kashmiri people.

</comment><comment><USER40> What would happen when starlink comes to existence? Would a country ask the company to shut off that part of satellites?

</comment><comment><USER41> Paywalled in India. Text/tldr?

Does the article cover urban and rural areas of Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh?

<comment><USER42> Here enjoy

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/bab500/bypass_news_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/bab500/bypass_news_sitess_paywalls_with_this_firefox/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> What laws changed with the removal of Article 370? This is a extremely detailed Before vs Now list. I need your help to make it better.

The only people who are really unhappy with the new law is Terrorists, Three powerful families, Pakistanis and people who don't know what changed. Let me put it in simple words. I have mentioned sources for all the points I made.

Before- You can marry a child in Kashmir legally and have sex with her. [Yes, Child marriage was legal there]

Now - Child marriage is illegal. There is an age limit for marriage just like anywhere else in India. [This made a lot of paedophiles angry as they won't be able to have sex with kids legally like before.]

Before - If a Kashmir girl marries a person from anywhere else in India, she will immediately lose all her properties in Kashmir. It means she will no longer be the owner of her own house and land. Also, her children can't inherit any properties and they cannot even get admission in the educational institutes of Kashmir. This practically means they are systematically banished from Kashmir forever.

Now - No matter who a Kashmiri girl marries, she will get to keep her own properties. [This made several people angry that now girls also have right to property]

Before - Poorest people and low caste discriminated people do not have any protection laws or reservation or scholarship while all other states of India had this.

Now - Poorest people and lower caste discriminated people will get very strong protection laws and reservation and scholarships. [This made landlord like people angry as they will no longer be able to legally abuse their servants[read slaves]]

Before - A man can divorce his wife by just saying three words "Talak Talak Talak" and wife will not get any maintenance money. [This usually means the wife will be homeless with nowhere to go and no income to survive. Many women were living as wives even under torture by their husbands in fear what will happen if her husband says these three words.]

Now - Divorce by "Talak Talak Talak" is a punishable offence, and Maintainance laws apply. [This made old-minded men and bad husbands angry that their wives now have rights and is no longer their dependent slave]

Before - The politics in J&K revolved around 3 families holding all the power. Think like the "Lords" in Game of thrones. These three families live like kings looting all money. Corruption was at the highest.

Now - The domination by these 3 families are gone, and ground-level new leaders can emerge. New Anti-corruption laws apply. [This made these 3 families with a net worth in billions of dollars angry that they will be under probe of anti-corruption laws]

Before - If a person becomes the chief minister of Kashmir, It is legally required to make a multi-million dollar bungalow at posh locality plus maintenance plus luxury car plus dozens of servants. All expense to be paid by the taxpayer of course. And, this person gets to keep all these things for the entire lifetime. Over $10million was spent for "renovation of bungalow" by the previous chief minister in the last couple of years.

Now - Chief Minister will not get such special benefits. They will have to vacate their official residence once they are not in power. And, these previous chief ministers may be asked to give-back these ill-earned properties. [These people are angry that they will lose their $50million+ worth bungalows and other benefits. All the chief ministers were from the three families I mentioned above, and they were the one who made this law that they should get bungalows]

Before - There were no laws protecting the minorities in J&K. This lead to the minorities being forced out of their own homes by the majority group over the past few decades. These majority people did a genocide of minorities in 1990s and 80s leading to the minorities having to flee for their life.

Now - Minority protection laws apply. [Some majority group is angry that minorities now have rights]

Before - Homosexuality is illegal and banned.

Now - LGBT laws protect Homosexual people. [Religious people are angry that homosexuality is being legalized]

Before - Over 100,000 people whose ancestors migrated from Pakistan to J&k state of India in 1947 did not have voting rights till now. They were practically stateless. People migrated to any other state in India has full voting rights, but not for people who migrated to J&K.

Now - Everyone has voting rights. The democratic rights of a person in Kashmir is the same as the person in India's capital Delhi. [Some politicians are angry that their lopsided discriminatory politics will no longer work and may backfire because of these people getting voting rights.]

Before - People of J&K can buy land/do-business/study/settle anywhere in India, but people of India can't buy land in J&K. This lead to no businesses being able to invest in J&K thus it remained under-developed while rest of India progressed. The biggest employer in J&K is the government itself as there is no way to start businesses, thus no employment. There was also no private hospitals, no good educational facilities etc.

Now - Both people of J&K and people of rest of India can buy land/do- business/study/settle anywhere in India including J&K. A lot of companies have already promised investment in J&K. A lot of big educational institutions are coming up. Two cities of J&K are getting Metro-trains for easy transportation. This will give a lot of employment and bring people out of poverty...

        Mukesh Ambani promises investment in Jammu & Kashmir, says Reliance will set up special team.
        Article 370 gone, investor summit planned in Jammu and Kashmir to boost industry, healthcare.

Before - Kashmiri children did not have the right to education. Only the rich get educated, others remain poor and illiterate forever.

Now - Right to education is a right of every child. No matter if they are poor or not, they get access to education. It is compulsory by law for the government to give education opportunities to each and every child. If a child is poor, he/she gets free education.

We are talking about over 500 such barbaric laws which will be gone with the removal of 370. I have only mentioned a few important ones over here, so now you can get an idea on how gigantic this change is. There are powerful people who are unhappy with this as it takes away their power, thus they will do whatever it takes to stop this change.

As a precautionary measure, a lot of police personal from around India was sent to Kashmir to maintain peace knowing very well that terrorists, Pakistani army and these politically powerful people will definitely try to disrupt peace.

Regarding communication blackout, that is the standard policy applied to all places which have chances of peace-disruption due to people misusing it to create violence using fake-news and instant-reaction without thinking rationally. In the previous year itself, at two places in India, the same policy was applied. That is, one during Jat Riots in Haryana{Near Delhi} and Sterlite Protest in Tamil Nadu[Southern India]. In the case of Kashmir, communication blackout of as long as 4 months has happened in 2010 after a terrorist attack. This is nothing new.

Jammu and Kashmir is also a place with a lot of terrorist activities from reputed terrorist organizations including ISIS, Lashkar-e-Taiba, JEM, Osama Bin Laden etc.

        Kashmir war fears grow as Pakistan cleric close to Osama bin Laden tells followers to wage jihad against India.
        "We Still Have 30,000-40,000" Terrorists, Admits Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan
        Article 370 : Imran Khan warns of another Pulwama terrorist attack[Pak pm threatening a terror strike subtly]

There was a major terrorist attack this February itself which killed a lot of people. Taking precautions during such major change is necessary, the alternative is that hundreds of people will die.

So, I suggest everyone to think it through on what they think is important. In my opinion, this is the best thing that has happened in J&K. This will bring lot of stability, investment and development. There is a risk of terrorist strikes, even Pakistan's Prime Minister has hinted it.

</comment><comment><USER44> I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim Indian majority state. However, just like their ill-fated demonetization policy from 2016, they haven't given a whole lot of thought to what happens the day after. How long will they keep these restrictions? How far are they prepared to go if there is a mass uprising?

<comment><USER42> Preventative measures are necessary for the kind of thing it can spark. The change is not like demonetisation rather a well thought and long-held demand of the present government. It has been there in the election manifesto since they started publishing election manifesto.

The new york times is entitled to its view on how India's elected government ought to run the country but that does not mean the government is going to forgo one of THE demands of the party founders.

The other thing that is ignored is that for seventy years Kashmir has gotten the biggest share of the central government's outlays for states and they have nothing to show for. Doing the same thing expecting a different result is bad in any environment.

I am not sure if this will work or not but what I am sure is that the previous status quo did not work. Moreover, how long would the entire state's ambition be held hostage because of an intolerant minority in four districts in the Kashmir valley?

Edit:

"Intorelent Minority" comes from Taleb's essay/book on the skin in the game

here is the link here is what I meant by Intorelant minority. I am sorry if It came as bigoted but I would call any small group of people this

[https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the- dict...](https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship- of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15)

<comment><USER9> > Preventative measures are necessary for the kind of thing it can spark.

To prevent what exactly? Political dissent?

Why can't people in Kashmir right now talk to each other over phone? Why can't they call their loved ones outside the region? Why isn't anyone else allowed to contact them? Why are lawyers, professors and activists being jailed? Why are some people not being allowed to leave the country? Why can't Indian politicians visit the region without being detained and sent back?

What exactly is all this preventing?

<comment><USER42> Okay, let's say they lift the ban here is how things will transpire.

First, Pakistan's ISPR would start a massive disinformation campaign aided by the separatist who lost all their influence with the present government but has a great following among the Kashmiri Youth.

Then there would immense violence with many dead while the "leaders" and there loved ones stay in a five-star hotel in Delhi.

To prevent a loss of life they had to do it. But it's slowly being downgraded and the curfew is absent in all but 4 districts of erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir

Edit:

I agree with you, that it is bad for people to have no communication channel.

<comment><USER45> C'mon, stop bringing Pakistan into this. India has mismanaged Kashmir so badly that the majority of the population _wants to leave India_ \-- and not to join Pakistan, mind you, but to be independent.

<comment><USER23> Pakistan is a big part of problem here by supporting militants and terrorists. Material, money and training support. Let's not absolve Pakistan here. They invaded independent Kashmir in 1947 and Kashmir had to let go its independence to get support from India against Pakistan's war.

<comment><USER27> They never invaded. Locals rebelled against the ruler for being independent. And asked to become part Pakistan. Army came in upon request from locals.

<comment><USER23> Nah, tribals were armed by Pakistan. Tribals from Pakhtun invaded Kashmir. Locals actually helped repel the tribal attacks. Let's not overlook stated facts.

<comment><USER46> Like you said, let's not overlook the facts. The fact is, India and Pakistan had visa on arrival up until 1974. The fact is, people from both sides of the border could still get naturalised citizens across the border up until early 70s. The fact is, both India and Pakistan did exactly the same things. Just look at the accession of Junagadh and Hyderabad estate into India. India got away with it because both the states were land locked and Pakistan couldn't help. If accession of Kashmir's raja is right, so was the declarations by nawab of junagadh and hyderabad. The fact is, the 1947 war ended with UN intervention which demanded plebiscite for kashmir. India had agreed, but so far failed to conduct that. Not only that, India doesn't even allow UN observers, while Pakistan do. I can throw in a lot of facts in here.

<comment><USER23> Hyderabad was a land locked pocket, and one of the conditions of partition was states aligning with Pakistan to be contiguous. How is Hyderabad contiguous to Pakistan? Junagadh claimed to be contiguous to Pakistan through bullshit reasoning of sea. So viability of these pockets was not feasible. India took over Goa the same way too. But Pakistan invaded Balochistan and Kashmir and forcibly occupied these territories, so it is not 'exactly the same things'. BTW, Pakistan did try to send weapons to Hyderabad through America.

First condition of plebiscite is withdrawal of Pakistani forces from occupied territories, 73 years and still waiting. India doesn't allow UN observers because they have outlived their utility, as LoC has been codified between Pakistan and India through Simla Agreement in 1971.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Why hasn't this been flagged yet? This post violates all guidelines of HackerNews.

<comment><USER2> Because the article is actually a pretty interesting look at how reliant the world has become on the internet.

 _"I don't know when to sleep, when to wake up, what to do with my life," he said during a rare foray outside on Monday evening for Eid al-Adha, the holiest festival in Islam. "There is no life without internet, even in Kashmir."_

<comment><USER24> this link violates all the guidelines of hackernews...i recommend taking it down.. it is a political hit job hinduphobic article thinly disguised as internet shutdown news.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Don't believe everything NYT writes. they have their own agenda. [https://twitter.com/hussain_imtiyaz/status/11602217869500989...](https://twitter.com/hussain_imtiyaz/status/1160221786950098944)

<comment><USER28> These could be old videos.

I always wondered why doesn't the government install a few hundred web cams across the big cities for the rest of world, including the journalists to see the reality. Why do only the journalists have to travel there and take pictures of whatever corner they want and tell whatever story they want to tell.

<comment><USER9> Definitely old videos. At least most of them. Also the account sharing the video is a high ranking police office. Not sure why an Indian police officer is a reputable source in this situation but NYT, BCC, HuffPost, AJE, BusinessInsider, etc are not.</comment></comment></comment>