New 13-inch MacBook Pro - <AUTHOR> https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/05/apple-updates-13-inch-macbook-pro-with-magic-keyboard-double-the-storage-and-faster-performance/ <comment><USER2> Bringing back the escape key is such a admission of their original screw up. I'm glad they admitted it and reversed the design decision. But I'm still on a 2012 15" MacBook that's running strong. I normally would have updated but using my work 15" has been horrific between the dongles, the keyboard randomly dropping keys (last week "G" would not work, now it's back. The most infuriating thing about the touch bar, out of many things, is the fact that the Escape Key doesn't line up with the upper left, it's offset. So decades of muscle memory has to change by s quarter inch. What a pain in the ass. Yes I'm a vi user.

<comment><USER3> I'm still surprised that so many people are stuck on the Escape key but it's probably no surprise that the ones that are stuck are all developers using vi or emacs. I love the Touch Bar and had no problem adjusting/remapping and find the utility of the Touch Bar for video and audio editing to be invaluable now. I wasn't sold on it before but, over the last year or so, I'll be really disappointed if they remove it. Adding the escape key back seems like a good compromise for both parties, imho.

<comment><USER4> I've used the touch bar for years, and frankly, it's provided me zero value whatsoever. The only thing I use it for is occasionally adjusting volume or brightness but of course I can no longer do that without looking down at what I'm manipulating. Third party apps have totally ignored it. The physical escape key is the second useful thing in the entire function row, but hey at least it's got two useful things now (an escape key and a touch ID/power button), so that's a 100% increase!

I went so far as to build a physical escape key -- #couragekey -- a few years back (just as a joke, but it does work) [https://twitter.com/martinmroz/status/995003391314083840](https://twitter.com/martinmroz/status/995003391314083840)

I just put in my order!

[edit] also the #couragekey was a really fun project to put together, I think I'll write it up to commemorate a real escape key coming back.

<comment><USER5> You can program your touchbar with something like BetterTouchTool. It's laughable that Apple ships the touchbar with such useless functionalities, but you can turn the touchbar into whatever you want, it's an amazing tool. For example, when I open iTerm I have buttons for my local development env (DB, redis, api, frontend, various microservices) color-coded by status and can start/stop them by tapping a button. You could program buttons for your git workflow, for managing browser tabs, desk spaces... If you can't find a way to make it more useful than fn keys, that's on you frankly.

All of that only applies if you're a dev, so I definitely agree that the touchbar was a fuckup from Apple, but it happens that it's massively useful for me

<comment><USER6> > You can program your touchbar with something like BetterTouchTool.

I just have no use for a touchbar. After all, I have a screen! I never look at my keyboard.... it's all about tactile feedback, which the touchbar notoriously lacks.

<comment><USER5> > I just have no use for a touchbar

I find this very narrow-minded. You can't imagine a single thing that a programmable tactile interface would bring over keys (that you probably can't reliably touch-type either, fn keys are far)?

I never looked at my keyboard either. I still don't, I look at my touchbar from time to time to do things that would take me longer to do if I had to move a cursor (checking the time, my next calendar event, controlling music amongst a dozen things)

<comment><USER6> > I still don't, I look at my touchbar from time to time to do things that > would take me longer to do if I had to move a cursor (checking the time, my > next calendar event, controlling music amongst a dozen things)

Moving the mouse doesn't really bother me, and there are a million ways to wire functionality to keyboard expressions or in-UI functionality. I do miss my hardware volume, prev track, next track, play/pause functionality exactly because I could use them easily without shifting focus at all, even to my keyboard.

OTOH I'm not holding my breath for Apple to meet my needs, they aren't that kind of company.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I was curious how the 13 inch was priced so I compared it to a new Dell XPS 13. Dell has a better processor (maybe, [2]) , but I couldn't find the option to upgrade the Dell to 4TB internal SSD, so I compared both with the 2 TB option. Ram is the same at 32GB.

Dell came out to $2399[0] USD and Apple came out to $2999[1] USD.

Dell Pros:

* Row of function buttons (I've used BTT to customize my touch-bar to the point where it's a little bit of a tossup, but years of muscle memory still haunt me)

* Better processor (maybe [2])

* Cheaper

* MicroSD reader

Apple Pros:

* Better Trackpad

* More Ports (Upgraded Dell only has 2 USB-C, while Upgraded MBP has 4)

* Better hardware support

* Better resale value

Objectively, seems to me that list used to be a lot longer on the Apple side. IMHO I think the Touch Bar disappointment is probably over dramatized by developers, it's not too bad a couple years in and BTT has made it so I can run whatever macros I want in any application, so overall tossup in my mind. I still miss mag-safe adapters though. I still don't understand that decision.

Also, I'm happy with the new Magic Keyboard. I have the 16 inch MBP right now, and I will say that even though I prefer the travel of the '12-'15 era keyboards, this typing experience is far superior than the faulty butterfly keys.

I'm hoping given how they've walked the keyboard back, and how the new Mac Pro is actually a Pro machine that they're headed back in the right direction (post Jony Ive). A $600 price difference for this machine is probably worth it in my mind, just given my experience with resale value, longevity and lack of competitors, but there's a lot of room improvement.

[0] [https://imgur.com/a/p6RA9HF](https://imgur.com/a/p6RA9HF)

[1] [https://imgur.com/a/f6ii7h9](https://imgur.com/a/f6ii7h9)

[2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23067768](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23067768)

<comment><USER8> After several years I can unequivocally say I still hate the touch bar. I love touch ID, but the bar needs to go.

USB-C was all about standardizing. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, I did love magsafe, but I also love that in theory someday I'll have one cable to rule them all. And I'll be able to charge my headphones/laptop/phone/random device with a usb-c cable instead of needing 8 of them.

<comment><USER9> I HATE the touch bar.

I simply H A T E it.

I hate it so much that I started to carry an TKL keyboard all the time with me just to avoid using this piece of sh*t touch bar and internal keyboard (MBP 2017).

As a developer it is crucial that I can use my keyboard without any looks but as there is no way to tell which function key you press on the touch bar the bar itself is completely useless for me.

Beside the butterfly switches one of the worst things Apple has ever introduced to their computers.

<comment><USER10> I just purged Apple from my life largely because the touchbar continues to live on. Love my new Lenovo, btw.

As a workaround for the touchbar that worked pretty well, I bought a silicon keyboard protector for the Apple Magic Keyboard, cut out the area for the function keys, and used hot glue to glue it over the touch bar.

Prevented the touchbar from activating at the slightest touch and did return some of the feel of actually having a row of keys.

Plus, the hot glue causes no damage to the aluminum and does hold for a good period of time.

Turn this into a product people could purchase and you'd become rich :)

<comment><USER11> The original Apple ][ had a reset key in the upper right corner of the keyboard that was WAAAAAY too easy to press.

[https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/1b/53/e31b53767fad646fc635...](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/1b/53/e31b53767fad646fc635271d1192fe13.jpg)

They eventually put a stronger spring under it so it was harder to press, but it was still terrible. There was actually a thriving after-market for $3.25 "RESET KEY PROTECTORS": square plastic tube shields that fit over the reset key so you had to stick your finger down inside of it to press reset.

[https://apple2history.org/history/ah13/](https://apple2history.org/history/ah13/)

RESET KEY PROTECTOR, which prevented accidental RESET on the earliest models of the Apple II, was available for only $3.25 from Special Systems Design. This was necessary because the RESET key, on the upper right of the keyboard, was easy to press because it had the same spring action as the other keys on the keyboard. Various methods (like this product) were used to stiffen that key, and make it harder to press.

[https://imgur.com/a/jGpcT4Z](https://imgur.com/a/jGpcT4Z)

Special Systems Design ad for Apple ][ Reset Key Protector, from Apple Orchard v1n1 1980 Mar Apr, page 107.

[https://archive.org/details/Apple-Orchard-v1n1-1980-Mar- Apr/...](https://archive.org/details/Apple-Orchard-v1n1-1980-Mar- Apr/page/n107/mode/2up)

<comment><USER12> I swear on my Apple ][ (which had the stiffer spring under reset) you had to press ctrl at the same time. Mine had an after-marked Videx keyboard controller though, and maybe that was a feature of that controller?

edit: indeed, yes it was:

[https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...](https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_and_Operation_Manual/page/n57/mode/2up)

I forgot how amazing this controller was:

[https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...](https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_and_Operation_Manual/page/n13/mode/2up)

It had macros:

[https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_a...](https://archive.org/details/Videx_Enhancer_II_Installation_and_Operation_Manual/page/n63/mode/2up)

<comment><USER13> There is a switch on the keyboard interface card inside the ][+ that allows you to toggle between requiring CTRL be held down, or just pushing the reset key. I would assume that this was added later, and wasn't available on the earlier models.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I've a macbook pro 13' 2017 - It's the worst laptop I've used in the past 10 years. It continuously gets smoking hot lot of fan noise and very often kernel panics. I have lost faith in apple macbook especially when price to hardware ratio is higher than anyone else in the industry I expect the machine to just work seamlessly. I'm very soon disposing the laptop and buy a dell or a thinkpad. I'm not looking at apple again for a very long time at least for macbooks

<comment><USER15> I have same model at work and even ignoring the keyboard the thing has been awful to use. The two ports are a complete nightmare making you have to juggle between power/screen and reliable storage (Tried 5 dongles, none can hold a drive reliably under heavy use).

Kernel Panics on waking from sleep almost every day, bluetooth chip crashes and requires restarts to get working again.

Not to mention the disgustingly low storage in the base model that my company thinks is fine makes the thing almost unusable for any semblance of "Professional" work other than being a journalist.

The design doesn't even feel modern and the bezels are janky compared to whats normal now on the windows side. I understand the new model fixes some of this, but they still thought this thing was absolutely fine to ship for several years now speaks volumes to me.

<comment><USER16> I don't understand why Apple doesn't give more ports. They removed the headphone jack in their phones, everyone else copied them (Samsung after making fun of it for a while). Apple makes repairing their machines hard by soldiering everything, others follow.

I hope other manufacturers don't start removing ports just because Apple does. Really annoying - why not just copy the good stuff from Apple, instead of their arrogant choices...

<comment><USER17> They already are. My father in law's Microsoft Surface has one fucking USB port.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Funny anecdote: Apple offers a trade-in when buying a new Macbook. I decided to have a look.

I entered the serial number of my Macbook Air 11" (Late 2010). I confirmed that it boots up, has no defects, has no optical faults and that I will include the power supply.

Apple offered 10€ ($12).

Yay?!

PS: This ancient notebook runs macOS High Sierra with the current 2020-2 security patch and sells for an astonishing 200€ on eBay.

<comment><USER19> It probably actually costs them money, when all is done, to take that machine and get rid of it in a reasonably responsible way.

<comment><USER20> Perhaps, but it reduces the size of the secondary market so consumers have less choice and may opt for a new one instead. This is the real advantage to Apple.

<comment><USER21> Is there a secondary market for a ten-year-old MacBook Air?

I use a nine-year-old Air almost daily, but I don't think the vast majority of people would consider it viable, let alone pay for one.

<comment><USER22> The silver lining of the "Apple Tax" is that machines retain value for an absurdly long time, even those which are verging on "obsolete".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> It looks like the frustrations just add up when you look at different factors.

In this lineup, the first two models are the 8th generation processors whereas the top model (starting at $1799) is the one with the latest 10th generation processors (but that still comes with a stingy 512GB SSD).

Another thing is that SSD storage on Apple Macs is expensive, and they can no longer be upgraded after purchase (since they have the T2 chip and are soldered on to the logic board). This would be kinda ok to put up with just for the combination of hardware and software, but poorly designed software makes the experience worse. Photos and videos take up a lot of space, and Apple's default app, Photos really sucks. You can't move the photos library to an external (cheaper hard) drive and live peacefully. If you do, then you might find yourself unable to eject said drive because there are background processes that launch themselves and keep your photos library in use even if nothing has changed and even when you've let them run for a day or a few days before to finish). Apple seems to be doing a terrible job on the software front (I don't even want to talk about other issues in Catalina). Is there any other alternative for photos on Mac that works well and can also import photos and videos from iOS devices (on to an external drive)?

<comment><USER24> I've tested Resilio Sync on my iOS devices and SyncThing on my Android devices to get my photos and videos to my home NAS. PhotoStructure (running in a docker image, but there are other ways to install it) then imports the new files and shows them in my library.

(Disclaimer: I'm the author of PhotoStructure, details in my profile)

Correction from the original post: I've tested Resilio on iOS and Android. SyncThing doesn't have an iOS port.

<comment><USER25> How are you running Syncthing on iOS?

<comment><USER24> You're correct, I've only tested it on Android. I edited the post to clarify.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> A little disappointed it's not the rumoured 14" model as I've been looking to replace both my 15" and 13" MacBooks.

Also, regarding other comments on "just" the 4 core CPU - it's probably all they could squeeze in without having to redesign the chassis/thermal design. I'm going to hold off for a tear down to see if they have improved the cooling system like they did (Or claimed to) with the 16" version.

<comment><USER27> I've always found the 13" Pros to be the "worst of both worlds" compromise. You don't get the svelte lightness of the Air, or the generous desktop or raw power of the big boy. Whatever your priority is, it's just not there. A 14" screen would have at least differentiated the product.

I think a lot of these are bought by corporate bean counters and people who assume that Airs must be awful if they're the most affordable.

(Yes, I've used them, my current "burner" is a '17 escape key model)

<comment><USER28> Having used a '15 (I think) 13" Pro for two internships, I actually found it met my needs really well. I personally can't stand any 14"\+ laptop, so the 13" Pro hit a great spot for me of being:

* Svelte enough to watch Netflix in bed with or throw in my bag to take on a commute

* Powerful enough that I never had major performance issues when plugged in at my desk at work, driving an external monitor

I look back on that machine and those internships fondly, and I could see myself going for a 13" MBP (or 14", if they ever release it) when I next need to upgrade my laptop - after I finish undergrad :)

<comment><USER27> right, but have you used the Air? It's much nicer for similar performance.

<comment><USER29> I have owned two Airs. Macbook Pros are so thin and light these days that I don't understand what Air brings to the table anymore. I mean, a 13" Macbook Pro is 3 lbs.

Ideally Macbook Pros would be thicker and heavier for better thermals and performance, and then Airs would have a purpose again.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I decided to switch back to the (new) MacBook Air instead. I feel that had the butterfly fiasco never happened, this generation of laptops may have just dumped the Touch Bar entirely, but instead, there were so many general keyboard complaints (escape key specifically, general Touch Bar complaints, and of course the butterfly keyboard complaints), that it is reasonable that they are trying to see if this new "reduced" Touch Bar will stick, but it's just not for me. I feel that the fact that the Touch Bar has not made its way into any other keyboard (desktop keyboards or even iPad keyboards), is somewhat of an admission that it's not that crucial.

It's a really weird feeling, because on the Air the keyboard has once again returned to just being something I don't think about. I'm not ecstatic or something. Just overnight I stopped getting infuriated at my machine and feeling like a complete idiot when I'd see an email where I sent "butt" instead of "but" due to repeated keys. But it's like fixing a dead pixel, my experience is not amazing now, it's just not an issue anymore.

The problem I've always had with the Touch Bar is that I'd lightly brush some random button and all of sudden I would have triggered some action. When I first got a Touch Bar MacBook Pro, I could swear we had some weird state- resetting bug in our website. Turned out, I would just every so often accidentally hit the refresh button on the Touch Bar. Do "normal people" _ever refresh_ a website? I feel that refresh has basically become a pro-level feature now for development. Anyways, I ended up just manually removing just about every button from the Touch Bar.

So, back to where we were 3 years ago as far as I'm concerned (on the Air).

<comment><USER31> The Touch Bar feels to me like a stopgap measure from Apple because they don't yet have touch-sensitive screens on their laptops. Eventually Apple will have to put touch-sensitive screens on their laptops -- just like everybody else does -- and on that day the Touch Bar will be history.

I know Apple doesn't think touch-sensitive screens on laptops are a good idea. I would have agreed with them 5 years ago. But every time I have to show my MBP screen to a colleague who's not an Apple user, they try to scroll the window by touching the screen with their finger. _Every time_. Apple is out of step with the world on this issue.

<comment><USER32> I dont think that is a good enough reason to add touch screen. Do you have a better reason for adding one?

One of the reasons for me to keep using a Mac has been not having a touch screen. It has become very difficult to find non-Mac laptops without a touch screen now. I for one hope they never add it.

<comment><USER31> Personally I don't care. I already have a Dell XPS running Ubuntu and I never use the touch screen even though it has one. I just think the non-hacker marketplace has come to expect all screens to be touchable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Very interesting. I had assumed I'd buy a 13" Pro as a personal laptop replacement for my 2011 Air when they updated the keyboard.

However, when the 2020 Air dropped, I snapped one up because it ticked all the boxes, and I really don't need the "power" of the Pro, especially given its presumed expense.

I bought a loaded Air with 512gb which was I think $1650.

Speccing out the Pro, the pricepoint for a similar machine is actually $1600; $50 _cheaper_.

Air is 1.2ghz quad core i7 10th gen / 16gb 3733mhz memory / 512gb

Pro is 1.4ghz quad core i5 8th gen / 16gb 2133mhz memory / 512gb.

In the Pro, you also get the touch bar (for better or for worse; I kind of like it, but no big deal). But its' also a heavier, thicker machine.

Also, that Pro is limited in the same way my Air is -- only 2 ports.

So I suspect it's kind of a wash. I bet we'll start seeing benchmarks soon comparing these 2 machines. I haven't dug into bus speed or cache amounts, but it's interesting how much faster the RAM on the Air is; I'm guessing slower bus speed but a higher multiple or something?

For my (home) use case, it really doesn't much matter, I just figured an 'acceptable' Pro would be $1800+, and figured the Air would be more in the $1400 range. FWIW I only really paid for the $150 CPU upgrade on the Air to get it a couple weeks sooner, I'm sure the 1.1ghz quad core i5 was the sweet spot in the lineup for price/performance.

<comment><USER34> > it's interesting how much faster the RAM on the Air is

Isn't that just the difference between DDR4 and DDR3?

Edit: Yes, I just confirmed that the last generation of MacBook Pros used DDR3 memory, whereas these new ones will use DDR4, so that's why there is such a big difference in speed. The new ones run at 3733MHz.

<comment><USER33> Ah. Looks like the store's "upgrade" button hasn't been updated to reflect the actual RAM speed. Or wasn't when i looked.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> So glad they finally got rid of the butterfly keyboard! That said, I cannot wait until they retire the Touch Bar.

<comment><USER36> What's your problem with the touch bar? My biggest was the lack of esc key, but they adjusted that.

I actually really like the touch bar. I don't use it very often, but I never used function keys.

<comment><USER15> Can't change the laptop volume with your eyes closed, I use my MBP to listen to podcasts in bed sometimes so like to alter the volume just by knowing where the keys are, not having to sit up and fumble with some touch screen widget.

<comment><USER37> FWIW, I have BetterTouchTool configured so that a two finger swipe/scroll anywhere on the bar adjusts volume and a three finger one adjusts brightness.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Please Apple, let me choose one without touchbar. I have had a touchbar for over a year now and still haven't figured out any use for it.

Edit: spelling

<comment><USER39> Something that I've found useful is [https://pock.dev/](https://pock.dev/) . It lets the touchbar replace the on-screen dock

<comment><USER40> I think this might deserve its own submission.

<comment><USER41> It was submitted here [0]. Let the MBP bikeshedding continue... ;)

[0]: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20229123)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> What I find irritating is the fact that you have to get the 2ghz CPU in order to be able to get 32gb RAM. It feels like artificial price inflation because the refresh is definitely not as exciting as people had hoped (no 14" micro LED screen, like every single "leak" suggested).

Also, the base CPU is an 8th gen chip, you need to fork out a lot of extra $$$ to get to 10th gen.

<comment><USER43> 32Gb of ram requires DDR4 which in this case, requires 10th gen chips.

Reading through this, I can't help but think this feels like Apple's 2.5Ghz PowerMac G5 all over again, back in like 2004.

Back then, they promised a 3Ghz G5 CPU in under a year and IBM just couldn't do it. Apple even noted it as why they were switching to Intel at the time. They couldn't keep promises and it seemingly pissed Steve off to the point of basically trashing them on stage.

This order sheet only makes sense if you think: 'What would they do if Apple couldn't get enough 10th gen parts and they showed up late?'

Obviously they would skew them to the high end models as they move mostly lower spec models. That way your product line still offers the fastest Intel hardware. But it makes for a messy nonsensical spec sheet that confuses customers.

When should I get the 8th Gen i7 that Turbos to 4.5Ghz but then when should I get the 10th Gen i7 that Turbos to 4.1Ghz?

You know what floored me?

This press release: [https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/05/apple- updates-13-inch...](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/05/apple- updates-13-inch-macbook-pro-with-magic-keyboard-double-the-storage-and-faster- performance/)

It seems to not mention 'Intel' until nearly half way through and exclusively uses it as a technical descriptor twice. (not `Intel's newest processors`, but instead the `10th Generation Intel Core' and 'Intel Iris Plus') The first reference to the CPU just calls them '10th gen processors'. It's like watching a person refer to an ex. This is the first Macbook Pro with a 10nm processor...why don't they say that?

This mess of product line just isn't Apple-like...And I think it has them pissed.

<comment><USER44> > why they were switching to Intel at the time. They couldn't keep promises

Makes the switch to their own ARM chips even more plausible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I've been dreaming of a 32G 13" for years but now that it's here I wish it were 64G. This for me sums up the problem with the 13" offering. Attractive form factor (for me), always 2-4 years behind on specs.

Apple apparently thinks that smaller form factor means the audience is "junior pro" or something. People who want smaller laptops are probably also running proportionally smaller workloads, thinks Apple. It makes zero sense to me.

<comment><USER46> co-dreamer here, do you have a recommendation for a 64G 13"?

<comment><USER16> Same, I'd like to get a 64G 13" too. system76 has galago, but it is 14"

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Sitting in front of my beloved 2013 MBP 15". Reading "the new inverted T-arrangement for arrow keys". Looking down at my keyboard. Seeing said inverted T-arrangement on my seven year old MBP.

Deception and lies.

<comment><USER48> I was struck by that too. How can they say it's a new inverted-T?

</comment></comment><comment><USER49> The problem with the touchbar is that you cannot build muscle memory with it. You have to look down to do anything with it. That goes against the entire UX of a keyboard. How Apple hasn't understood that basic fact yet is beyond me. This new MacBook is nothing special. A Ryzen 4000HS surface is more attractive now. The cheaper CPU Ryzen has 8 cores and is faster than the current 16" 6 core i7. Time to get rid of Intel and it's over heating 14nm CPU's.

<comment><USER50> Not only that, my fingers also occasionally hover over touchbar and create accidental touches constantly creating chaos. I actually got cold feet of using my Mac because of that and sticking to my PC most of the time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Interesting to see they upgraded the RAM, but still kept it LPDDR3, even though all other Macs have DDR4 (except for the MacBook Air, which as LPDDR4X). At this price point I would honestly expect DDR4 in a "Pro" machine.

<comment><USER52> Wait, what? Hasn't DDR3 been phased out nearly everywhere about 5 years ago?

<comment><USER53> LP = low power. It gives Apple laptops incredible sleep times, and Apple will take LPDDR3 over DDR4 given that choice.

<comment><USER54> LPDDR4 (X) is a thing...

<comment><USER53> IIRC there was some problem with LPDDR4 having issues with sleeping power consumption that slowed Apple's adoption of it.

<comment><USER55> That is DDR4 (no LP). MacBook Air 2020, MacBook Pro 16", and the most expensive MacBook Pro 13" configuration use LPDDR4.

<comment><USER53> I wish I could find the old HN comment I'm thinking of; there was some combination of memory size, board compatibility, chipset and ram that slowed Apple from moving from LPDDR3 to LPDDR4. Such restrictions might still apply to the older chips used in their non-flagship machines.

That is, if I could remember the specific details.

<comment><USER56> Intel CPUs don't support LPDDR4(X) until Ice Lake. So previous MacBooks stuck at LPDDR3 (then max capacity is limited to 16GB) or go to DDR4(more max capacity but more power consumption).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> Disappointed we didn't see a 14" in a 13.3" body, or anything otherwise exciting here.

I for one prefer the butterfly keyboard. So the magic keyboard is at best a neutral move (I think a downgrade). For those folks who loathe the butterfly, I'm sure they'll be delighted at a 13" with the new magic keyboard. For me, it looks like the 2018 will continue to be on my desk. Happy that I maxed it at time of purchase.

Maybe an ARM Macbook in 2021 is in my future.

<comment><USER58> Probably have hard-coded screen paint calculations for typical macOS and a need for massive multi-year refactor to allow non-typical screen sizes (e.g. 1cm more when removing the bezels on 13").

Semi-sarcasm.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> When you consider that Apple had a 12" Macbook (w/ Retina Display) in the lineup 5 years ago the current lineup is a bit disappointing.

Also the distinction between the Air and the 13" Macbook is not clear.

That said: this is a decent update for a decent laptop and I'm looking forward to what is to come. The rumors re 14" form factor and ARM based Macbooks do sound intriguing.

In the meantime I think the recommendation re when to buy a new Mac is as it always has been: when you need one. Don't wait for a specific update or rumor, otherwise you might have to wait for years in some cases :)

</comment><comment><USER60> I don't know why people in this thread, keep comparing macbooks to dell xps. they're not equivalent. Thinkpad's X & T series are probably the only machines hardware wise that compare to macbook from durability and working out of the box with Linux. a t490 released last year, has better specs than the new 13" macbook. And I will applaud apple for bringing back a saner keyboard n eSC key.

</comment><comment><USER61> Anyone have any insight into why they might not have included "Wi-Fi 6" aka 802.11ax? I was under the impression that it's current get now even if there's not a lot of support yet.

Are we still lacking good chipsets with support?

</comment><comment><USER62> Is the headphone jack still on the right? (Rhetorical question.)

Still an insane choice as headphones have their wires on the left ear so when on my work macbook i have a wire either under or over my wrists. (Or behind the display, which shortens cable length significantly and pulls a sharp angle which will ruin my Sony MDR 7506 soon enough.

<comment><USER22> I'm grateful we still have the headphone jack at all.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> The press release lost me at 'physical escape key'. I remember I had the same feeling seeing the ads for iPhone 3g with 'copy/paste'. Not many companies in the world can get away with advertising a technology that existed for decades as top product features in current lineup.

Back to Mac laptops, hardware is really not that exciting. It feels as the one major thing Apple has over the competition is macOS. So the combination of hardware and software is still the best one on the market (like IBM P series laptops were in the decade before Lenovo took over).

</comment><comment><USER64> Good that they went for more less the same setup as in 16 inch model. The escape key and old keyboard switches really do make the difference for me.

<comment><USER64> But the size of the 16 inch is huge compared to 13 inch. Not too comfy to hold it on my lap when travelling by train. Finally there's an option.

<comment><USER65> Also, you can't really open the 16" during a flight in economy class.

Not that we are flying anytime soon. Could as well get an iMac...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER66> Really glad I bought this year's MacBook Air instead of waiting for this. Seems like a much better deal to me

<comment><USER67> Are you coding on it? I'm a bit worried about the thermals, and whether I would get fan noise when I'm compiling or running my 3 minute test suite.

<comment><USER68> I'll tell you a little secret: when compiling or running multi-minute test suites, or sometimes even just being in a videochat, the fans rev up, and sound like a weak hair dryer, even on the 16" MBP (which is what I currently use).

The thermals on Apple laptops from the last several years don't seem to be designed to work without frequently revving the fans way up.

<comment><USER67> Ugh, I was afraid of that. I've been clinging to my 2013 MBP, waiting for an upgrade with a bearable keyboard, and then when the 2020 MBA came along I thought I might have the ideal machine, but then I started hearing about the thermals. Was hoping the new 13 inch MBP might fit the bill instead, but it sounds like the thermals are just kinda crappy these days.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> Does this use the 2020 redesigned keyboard with longer travel? That's literally the only thing I care about that they can potentially change.

<comment><USER70> Yes

</comment></comment><comment><USER71> I recently bought the 2020 Macbook Air after breaking my 2017 (18?) Macbook Pro. No touch bar, new "magic" keyboard.

Keyboard is great. I think I still prefer the chiclet keys but these are close enough. Function row is far superior to the touch bar. The touch ID button is great too. Makes using 1password much more convenient.

Small battery (which means fast charge times) and long battery life are huge for me. I've got 8 1/2 hours remaining on 91% after >1 hour of usage.

I unfortunately haven't done any local development on the machine. I ssh into a linux machine on the network. But I don't think the fans ever spin up. And it never feels hot to the touch.

I spent two weeks doing remote dev work with a 2012 Macbook Air and another week doing remote dev work with the 2020 Macbook Air. Since processing power was irrelevant my experience between the two was mixed. The 2020 Air has a better trackpad and screen. But the 2012 Air has the better keyboard. I could have used the 2012 for the rest of my life had it had a better screen.

Anyway... just some thoughts for anyone looking for a new macbook.

</comment><comment><USER72> Dear Apple... I will pay $200 extra for the option of a keyboard with physical function keys and no touchbar.

Sincerely, Disappointed Customer.

</comment><comment><USER73> Bragging about a "dedicated escape key", T-shaped arrow pad and better keyboard in the marketing materials for this thing is the very definition of chutzpah.

<comment><USER74> Now without missing an Escape key!

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> Another year, another laughable release with the same BS language trying to dazzle "Pro" wanna-be's. There is nothing Pro about these machines.

<comment><USER76> if 32 GB is not "pro", i don't know if we have the same understanding about what "pro" means

<comment><USER77> I have 64GB in my Thinkpad P71. I got it ~2 years ago. Why so much ram? I make money with this beast. How's your Starbucks?

<comment><USER78> I bet I make at least twice the money with half the RAM. ;)

Weird thing to belittle someone over there man.

<comment><USER76> you basically did the same thing with your comment

<comment><USER78> I'm just speaking his language to deflate his ego a little bit by showing him that his point that RAM = money has no basis in reality.

<comment><USER77> I was making fun of the fact that he thought 32 was pro. I slam into the 64gb limit on my laptop daily.

<comment><USER78> I think that's egotistical gatekeeping. There's no basis for 64GB being "pro" and 32GB not (or even 16GB or 8GB, for that matter). You can make millions of dollars on an MacBook Air with 8GB of RAM. Your use case does not dictate what is a reasonable amount for other professionals.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER79> $1800 if you want more than 2 ports (one of which is for charging). Between this and the Touch Bar, I'll probably get an MBA instead to replace my 2017 Pro.

<comment><USER80> If you don't mind fan noise that is. The 2020 Air has shit cooling.

<comment><USER79> Ugh, good to know. You have one?

<comment><USER80> I wanted one because on paper it looked great for my needs.

But it turns out the CPU has passive cooling and the case fan needs to work very hard to keep it cool. At least the i5 model which is the one I was considering. I don't know about the i3.

<comment><USER79> Do you know where to find out more about this? I like that the fan practically never spins up on my 2017 MBP, but of course the keyboard is garbage. I'm not a dev so perhaps I could get by with a lesser processor, but I wouldn't want to go to the trouble of swapping to get something that is actually slower than my current machine.

<comment><USER80> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgi2deRivc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSgi2deRivc)

> _At around 30% CPU load (installation of OS updates), the fan is clearly > audible and we are already above 40 dB(A), which is hard to understand > considering the low performance level._

[https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-new-2020-MacBook-Air- Core-...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/The-new-2020-MacBook-Air-Core-i5-has- arrived-Faster-CPU-but-still-way-too-loud.459603.0.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER81> I was so looking forward to the rumored 14-inch MBP, in which case I would have upgraded my MBP Retina, 13-inch, Early 2015.

Also, having no option for a keyboard with function keys on any MBP model anymore is just disappointing. Why are they so stubborn with that touchbar?!

<comment><USER82> If you're living with a 2015 13" Pro the MacBook Air is a huge upgrade if you opt for 16 RAM and the quad core CPU. I just upgraded and it can handle anything I throw at it (.NET Core, Angular, Docker, JetBrains IDEs)

<comment><USER81> i5 or i7? How is the temperature? There are reports that Air has issues with overheating.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> What's the real value in paying more for this compared to getting a new MacBook Air?

<comment><USER84> The big thing is thermal design. In the new MBA, a moderate load spins up the fans really loud, whereas in the MBPs, it takes a pegged CPU/GPU to even turn the fans on.

Honorable mention: better screen in terms of colors and brightness. Probably a faster SSD. More TB3 ports.

<comment><USER85> I'd love to see this tested with the new MBP. My 2015 13" MBP behaves as you describe, you pretty much never hear the fan unless you are pegging the CPU. But on my 2018 13" MBP the slightest load will get the fan going and it's terrible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER86> My new 16 inch crashes once every 48-72 hours. Been pretty upset with it so far.

<comment><USER87> Mine did too occasionally also had other issues (like random wakes and not returning to sleep), but the upgrade to 15.4 fixed everything.

</comment></comment><comment><USER88> The escape button escaped from the touchbar!

</comment><comment><USER89> $2k for an i5? No thanks. I can max out a HP Spectre x360 with an i7, 16GB, 4K OLED touchscreen, and 2TB NVMe and come in under $1900. Plus its lighter, has better battery life, better cameras, and a better keyboard. Get it with just the 256GB NVMe, and I can pare that down to $1570.

[https://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/spectre-x360-211501-- 1](https://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/spectre-x360-211501--1)

<comment> rooam-dev But can it run MacOS? :)

<comment><USER90> It probably can, although some tinkering is involved.

[https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/guide-high-sierra-on- hp-s...](https://www.tonymacx86.com/threads/guide-high-sierra-on-hp- spectre-x360-8th-gen-coffee-lake.251330/)

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xznw4/how-to-make-a- hack...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xznw4/how-to-make-a-hackintosh- laptop)

But yeah... not easily enough that many consumers would consider doing it over directly buying a mac.

<comment> rooam-dev There is a legal aspect too. How long Apple will allow/tolerate this?

<comment><USER90> I don't think they allow it necessarily. They have explicit licensing terms which say that MacOS can only be installed and used on Apple hardware.

How long they tolerate it is another question, and I don't think anyone knows for sure. But if hackintoshing becomes easier (imagine a one click installer on a Dell/HP/ASUS PC), I'd imagine they'd start pursuing people.

I think there was also an individual/company that would build PCs, install MacOS, and sell them for a profit. IIRC, they were shut down.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER91> What about the quality of the webcam?

I need to do a lot of video conferencing nowadays, and the macbook air 2020 webcam is worse than the rear facing camera of a Nokia 3210.

<comment><USER92> It's still the exact same potato-cam in every model, from the Air to the $$$ MacBook Pro "16.

<comment><USER91> How do people WFH with their new $$$ macbooks ? Is there any external cam you would recommend ?

<comment><USER93> I use a Pixel 3a (rear camera) connected over USB + Droidcam as my webcam.

<comment><USER94> Droidcam doesn't exist for MacOS?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER95> It's not easy to iterate in hardware and even harder to go back on a failed design. but agreed that Touch Bar needs to be revisited somehow.

</comment><comment><USER96> I recently got an 11" ipad pro with the new keyboard/touchpad. After using it for some time, I don't think I'll have a need for a personal mpb anymore. I have a tower with windows/linux and a 1080ti for heavy lifting when needed. There's just a freeing feeling to getting a device with a small form factor that can be just a screen if needed.

<comment><USER41> I'm in a similar boat, really enjoy using my older iPad pro. I'm more interested in a desktop for a daily driver that I can also remote into from the iPad. Still need Apple hardware because of my work. The 5K retina iMacs are awfully tempting.

<comment><USER96> That would be a similar workstation that I have, just as a iMac instead of a tower. For portability, ease, and ability to switch between a "dock" mode and a tablet mode I'm all-in with the ipad now.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER97> If they were serious about speed, they'd have something to show regarding how well they can manage core temperatures.

</comment><comment><USER98> So, no model with physical F-keys available anymore… touchbar only.

<comment><USER99> MacBook Air still has the physical F keys.

<comment><USER80> But shit cooling

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER100> Is it just me or is Apple starting to fall woefully behind non-mac hardware competitors in both price and perf?

I used to look forward to these announcements, now it's just 'we upgraded to a +1 generation config (still 1-2 generations behind what others are doing), that'll be 2000 bucks thanks'. Advertising 4 cores and 2018 Iris graphics as if it's some kind of achievement, when competitors have full dGpu solutions and 6 cores in same sized chassis at the same price bracket. They're taking a bit of a piss at this point.

<comment><USER101> Well, competitors are still behind Apple. They offer worse touchpad, worse screens (it's either 16:9 or weird resolution), no macOS, worse speakers, worse microphone, worse battery.

<comment><USER102> No sure that no macOS makes competitors objectively worse.

<comment><USER99> Laugh as much as you want but to me (and many others) it actually is. I would look at other manufacturers for their hardware, but sadly it's all non-MacOs and I value this operating system above anything else for my needs (work and personal).

<comment><USER103> Nobody has to be laughing at anyone else, just saying that other platforms and ecosystems are also viable.

<comment><USER99> Except they aren't. I need a top class desktop operating system with top class unix environment support and tools. Windows10 might be getting close to a top class desktop os, but sadly WSL is years behind and simply feels like forced afterthought. Linux fills the unix env/tools box, but doesn't even gets close to desktop operating system quality bar of MacOS.

<comment><USER54> macOS is definitely not a top class UNIX environment, not even by a long shot. It is an alien hybrid of outdated BSD tools and toolchains. Even Xcode, which was amazing a decade ago, is now a joke compared to other environments and specialized tools nowadays.

Since Jobs died, the company has slowly allowed their development-focused machines and toolset to rot. The company now only caters to artists and it shows with their "Pro" offerings, including the Mac Pro.

As for the desktop features, all 3 major operating systems are the same. Claiming otherwise is not knowing how to use each of them.

<comment><USER104> I'm not sure if you're claiming that Linux is a "major _desktop_ operating system" (desktop added for clarity based on the context of your statement), but if you are your statement is badly misinformed.

I use Linux in (many) VMs where I have to in order to run esoteric toolchains for embedded stuff. There is no distribution of Linux that provides bulletproof basic desktop usability anywhere near the level of OS X or Windows 10. Nothing even in the same ballpark. And I've used Linux since the days when Slackware came on a set of 3.5" floppies, so I'm not some Linux hater or incompetent here -- I've got a significant amount of experience with the OS in many of its flavors. When you can get any distribution of Linux to accurately handle plugging in external monitors every time, maybe we can talk.

Xcode is an excellent IDE - it's second really only to Visual Studio.

My only complaint about Macs today is the Touch Bar, because they replaced my f-keys with it and it's useless to me as a developer. That's at least partially mitigated by my das keyboard.

Nearly every other dev I know uses a MacBook Pro. The Mac Pro is a production machine for movies, it's not really part of the discussion here.

<comment><USER54> Of course I am claiming Linux is a major operating system. It is the most widely deployed operating system in the world, after all.

For _desktop_ in bare metal, Linux is extremely bad, yes, but most people use it as a desktop in a VM within another host OS.

Xcode is an excellent IDE... if you don't know better or are into iOS/Swift development (due to legal reasons).

I know nobody that uses a MacBook Pro in my field. I know it is common in webdev and specially mobile dev fields, though, so I give you that.

<comment><USER104> It's not a major operating system outside of server use.

Your claim was this:

"As for the desktop features, all 3 major operating systems are the same. Claiming otherwise is not knowing how to use each of them." \-- that's a demonstrably false statement, which you're apparently trying to walk back now by claiming server installations are the same as desktop use. Linux has essentially zero desktop market share, because it's a very poor desktop OS, and is in no way comparable to either of the leading desktop operating systems, which was your claim. And no one I know uses Linux as a _desktop_ inside another OS. Plenty of people use an ssh session into a Linux machine to compile things, but that's not using it as a desktop. Very few people would want to use an OS in a VM as their main desktop, especially since that doesn't even resolve the issues that make it a terrible desktop OS!

I'm using Xcode on a MacBook Pro to do C++ development for an embedded system right now. I've used it to write C applications in the past. I don't do webdev ever and generally don't do mobile. Nearly everyone in my field uses a MacBook Pro, for everything from firmware development up. The webdev kids seem to be the the Linux zealots from what I've seen.

<comment><USER54> > It's not a major operating system outside of server use.

You are forgetting Android, embedded, web servers, networking equipment of all kinds, HPC and supercomputing, HFT, automotive, aerospace and many other fields.

Linux is, _by far_ , the operating system with the most deployed systems out there.

> that's a demonstrably false statement, which you're apparently trying to > walk back now by claiming server installations are the same as desktop use

I am not backing from anything, and I have not claimed anything about servers so far until _this_ post.

Linux is the third desktop operating system, whether you like it or not. At home, in fact, it is not that far from macOS (4%), Linux (1%).

Given you talk about "demonstrable" things, I refer you to surveys like Steam's.

At work, Windows is even more prevalent, and those surveys do not include VM (work/non-gaming) usage where most people I know use it.

> Nearly everyone in my field uses a MacBook Pro, for everything from firmware > development up

Perhaps you are in the US, where Apple has a disproportionate market share (up to 30% IIRC) compared to anywhere else in the world. I also work on embedded and no one uses a Mac here, nor Xcode. A ThinkPad or a Dell with a Linux VM is the proper choice. Xcode for firmware development sounds very odd, too.

<comment><USER104> The entire context of the discussion was desktop operating systems, not embedded devices. Aerospace doesn't run Linux on anything I've ever even heard of, that would be foolhardy to the extreme. They're running things like QNX and different variants of real time operating systems. Automotive does run it on non-critical things, but even that is pretty silly. Most critical systems on vehicles do not run Linux either. Most networking gear doesn't run Linux -- some consumer things do, but many run some form of BSD or some proprietary OS(ios).

Android is barely Linux (and if you want to add mobile phones into the discussion you'd have to realize that iOS is actually the same thing as OS X..), and the rest aren't desktop operating systems at all -- and many of them don't run Linux either.

But again, the context, and your comment, was about the desktop. Linux isn't there.

You call Linux the "third" desktop operating system by default because its desktop share isn't exactly zero. It's quite close to zero, but not exactly. That's all.

Windows & OS X are the only major _desktop_ operating systems.

And yes, I'm in the US. I'm not sure that really matters that much. Obviously different shops will do things differently. You don't use a Mac, so your worldview is that they aren't a thing. That's simply not correct. There's a wide world outside your bubble. A Thinkpad / Dell with a Linux VM is _your_ choice, not "the proper" choice.

I'm not an OS zealot -- I use both of the major desktop operating systems, and I use others where they're appropriate -- have used Linux for decades. Until Linux has MS Office running natively on it, it will never have a desktop market. No, it's still not the year of the Linux Desktop. Probably never will be.

And Xcode is a perfectly usable C & C++ IDE. Why wouldn't you use it for firmware?

<comment><USER54> > Aerospace doesn't run Linux on anything I've ever even heard of, that would > be foolhardy to the extreme.

It will shock you to learn that most stuff out there now works on Linux and soft RT Linux. For hard RT where Linux does not fit the bill, specialized operating systems are used.

> Android is barely Linux

It is actually 100% Linux.

> the rest aren't desktop operating systems at all

Luckily not everyone working on about half a dozen of them thinks like you!

> You call Linux the "third" desktop operating system by default because its > desktop share isn't exactly zero.

1% is "near zero"? So millions and millions of desktops are "zero"?

We should be telling Canonical, Valve, Microsoft and hundreds of other companies that depend on "desktop" Linux to work!

> And yes, I'm in the US. I'm not sure that really matters that much.

As I explained, the market share in the US is wildly different than in the rest of the world.

> You don't use a Mac, so your worldview is that they aren't a thing.

Hah. I have used Apple systems and Xcode for many years. I own (have owned, my last was right before the Touch Bar debacle) several Macs in my life. That is why I know a decade ago they were on top of their game and now the ecosystem sucks for devs.

In another thread I said I think the culture of the Mac died with Jobs and the company switched to the profitable part too much (the iPhones and such).

> Until Linux has MS Office running natively on it, it will never have a > desktop market.

Desktop market != Office market. Of course Linux has almost no market on typical companies with employees doing Word and Excel 8-5.

> And Xcode is a perfectly usable C & C++ IDE. Why wouldn't you use it for > firmware?

Because everything else is just plainly better, or open source, or free, or cross-platform, or...

Yes, Xcode is perfectly usable for C++. SublimeText + plugins is perfectly usable, too. I can also do my job pretty well with gedit or vim or emacs. And if needed I can do it with bloody Notepad too. That does not mean I choose them nor that they are the best.

<comment><USER104> Not in aerospace or anywhere else where life & safety are at stake. I'm quite familiar with those worlds, and Linux doesn't exist there.

Android is not 100% Linux. It's a phone OS that runs a Linux kernel and essentially nothing else that even looks like a desktop Linux (remember, that's the discussion).

Yes, 1% is near zero. For desktop use, the only people who use Linux are devs who are completely buried in the Linux world, and OS zealots. The market outside of that vanishingly small sector of desktop users is zero -- not close to zero, not 1%, zero. No one runs Linux on the desktop because they want to run Linux on the desktop -- you don't even do it. They run it because they have no other alternative, or because their religion demands it.

Nothing has changed in the Mac "ecosystem" to make their machines worse for devs in the last ten years. I'm really at a loss to even begin to understand what you are talking about here. It simply isn't so.

Again, your opinion is that you don't like Xcode. Nothing else you've posted suggests a real fact.

I've written plenty of code in vi -- even in ed, in Netbeans, whatever. I like Xcode because it works really well, and if you're in the Mac ecosystem it's designed to work well there. I don't care if an IDE is open source, I don't care if it's "free" (Xcode is), and I don't care if it's cross platform. Those items mean nothing to me, they do nothing for me. If I need to write on a linux system I'll pull up netbeans or eclipse. Or I'll write it in an ssh session using vi. So what?

You're continuing to state your opinions as though they are some objective fact. You don't like Macs for some reason since Jobs died. That's your opinion. It doesn't match that of many others.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER105> I have Macbook Pro 13 inch model from 2013 and was really looking forward to upgrading to this year's rumored Macbook Pro 14 inch laptop. Sigh! Now I will wait another year. I don't see anything in this refreshed Macbook Pro 13 inch model that is worth upgrading from my current Macbook.

</comment><comment><USER106> Now all Apple laptops feature magic keyboards. Butterfly switches are no more!

I'm not convinced by the value of the thirteen inch pro versus the air. Same screen size, keyboard, and ports. Similar upgrade path.

I know that not all i5/i7 etc are created equal, and the 13 inch pro uses chips that draw more power, but could someone explain the more concrete difference in performance that a user would see day to day?

<comment><USER107> The 13 inch pro will get hotter faster.

The idea is that the additional room in the boost clock should allow you to open new chrome tabs and load GMail slightly faster, but if you're doing any sort of sustained performance task, you're going to hit thermal limits within a minute or two.

<comment><USER108> That's only considering the boost clock though. The thermal package on the MacBook Air is __horrid__. The MBP can sustain longer periods of boost, albeit with fans spinning up. The new MBA will literally throttle in minutes on medium/high loads due to the dysfunctional semi-passive cooling design.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER109> I'm no fan of the TouchBar but once I rearranged it to my liking with BetterTouchTool[0], at least it's out of my way and has a modicum of usefulness.

The Escape key is the one key that even BTT didn't fix… because accidentally hitting the key does actions. I like to rest the fingers of my left hand around the upper-left corner of the keyboard, relying on touch. And triggering the escape key without pressing has been very annoying.

So seeing Apple bring back the hardware escape key fixes most of my gripes. The other improvement I'd like to see is force-touch on the touchbar. That would require some pressing in order to prevent triggering actions by simply brushing the fingers.

[0] [https://folivora.ai](https://folivora.ai)

</comment><comment><USER110> It's astonishing how far the MBP has fallen in ten years. My 2010 MBP was and still is the perfect laptop design. Look what Apple has taken away from us: MagSafe, SD card slot, optical audio I/O, RJ45, USB-A, even the top row of our keyboards. What have we gained? The same internal advances that are in every other computer, a gimmicky touch bar, fragile keyboard mechanism, and USB-C.

What's really sad is that none of this decline was necessary. All they had to do was leave the perfect laptop alone, and go on upgrading the internals. Were they selling the 2010-2012 MBPs at a loss or something?

<comment><USER111> MagSafe was flawed - I'm glad it's gone. It had massive reliability issues due to dust getting in between the connectors - which ending up causing charging problems, excessive heat at the charging port and countless charging adapter replacements.

<comment><USER112> On MBP2015 and i love magsafe.

<comment><USER113> It's saved me a fortune.

<comment><USER114> I was in my photography class and my magsafe cable was tripped about four times in one day. Crazy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> >Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Physical escape is what we all need right now, but like people with pre-Magic Keyboard touch bars, we're all going to have to settle for mental Escape for a while.

</comment><comment><USER115> Hmm. If this had a ~14" display in roughly the current chassis size then it would be an instant buy for me. Now I'm not sure - is the 14" still happening? Or should I go for this one?

</comment><comment><USER116> I've been a Big Mac user for the last 7 years or so. I initially moved over from Linux after experiencing the ease of the OSX operating system when working in software development without the overhead of maintaining something like Arch Linux.

I'm now looking at system76 and Pop!_OS for my next machine. They seem to be doing a really good job of creating compelling hardware and software that works well together. From the sounds of it, Pop!_OS does a really good job creating that Apple "just works" experience without all the cruft.

<comment><USER117> Pop!_OS looks interesting. Thanks for the recommendation. I've been using Linux since switching from MacOS and have been finding the additional setup and configuration an extra hassle I don't want. Although not enough of a hassle to drop $1,500+ on a new machine. I might have to give this a spin.

</comment></comment><comment><USER118> Just a spec bump and addition of the Magic Keyboard. Sure, 10th gen CPU and up to 4TB/32GB, but no 6-core CPU, no 14" screen. A lot of people are going to be disappointed.

<comment><USER119> Spec bump (not even wifi6) is an indicator of a major design upgrade coming in the fall. I expect a significant exterior change or the switch to Arm processors come October.

<comment><USER120> Not this year, maybe next October and it's still a stretch..

Arrogance is an Apple trademark, but they now have become complacent regarding their products ( not their financial performance though.. )

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER121> I bought an Honor Magicbook for half the price. It's lightweight, has a beautiful case, proper touchpad (so I don't use my external apple touchpad anymore), nice keyboard, long battery life, and I can run whatever OS I want on it (I'm using Ubuntu atm, but I might try Fedora). It has usb-c, usb-a, hdmi, and headphone jacks. Everything just works.

I gave up on Mac when they broke their keyboards and started locking me out of everything. Once my macbook died, I never looked back.

</comment><comment><USER122> I wonder how many people buying Macbook Pro's this year are trying to load up before Apple starts the ARM migration, thereby avoiding what may be a rough first year or two

<comment><USER123> In that sense, the resell value may be quite high on this one as one of the last working x86 machines where some apps may not migrate or migrate very slowly to ARM architecture in the coming years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER124> Everyone whined about the touchbar and keyboard of the more recent models a lot. But personally, I was fine with them. I don't really have a preference between the non-touchbar vs. touchbar models. Same goes for butterfly vs. scissor keyboards. They were all fine for me.

My person MBP is from 2015 and I've had a 2018 and 2017 15" MBP (with touchbar/butterfly switches) for work and they've all been thoroughly acceptable.

</comment><comment><USER125> A bit disappointing the 32GB ram option is only available on the £1,799 model (which, when added, bumps the price to £2,199)

Interestingly on that model the RAM is running at a higher speed (3733MHz LPDDR4X vs. 2133MHz LPDDR3 memory)

I'm still running my MBP from 2015 which is mostly fine, but Firefox and co. eat the RAM so would be good for an update. Although for work I use the 16" 2019 model with 32GB and Firefox uses 27GB of that quite easily...

> _djhworld_

<comment><USER126> The ram difference is most likely because the lower-end models use 8th gen CPU, whereas the top tier uses 10th gen.

</comment></comment><comment><USER127> I don't get the craze. Just remap caps lock. If you use ESC enough to complain, caps lock is the more ergonomic location anyway.

</comment><comment><USER128> The great things:

The new keyboard is always welcome. The butterfly keyboard was a huge pain. An escape key is definitely something that most of us have been waiting for !

The bad: I don't get it why Apple is still sticking with a sub-standard 720p facetime camera when they can easily upgrade that. For this video-call covid situation, a nice camera would have been nice

</comment><comment><USER129> What I am really hoping for is a 14" laptop that includes a discrete GPU. Hopefully an Nvidia one to allow CUDA work.

</comment><comment><USER130> Only two USB-C ports?!? That's really disappointing, I always have a yubikey in one so that only leaves one free.

Seeing this, I'm actually more inclined to get the Air since it has faster ram, a newer processor, and no touch bar. (I'd love 32gb but at Apple prices I could VPN to a custom built rig and still be under budget)

<comment><USER131> Last time I complained about this on HN I just got told that I should have bought a higher specced version. Guess my £1800 wasn't enough for more than two ports on a "Pro" device, thanks fanboys!

</comment></comment><comment><USER132> Is it right about time to switch to Catalina? I was excited until I read "comes with Catalina". Suggestions?

</comment><comment><USER133> >Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Maybe next year we'll get a new feature, physical F1 key.

</comment><comment><USER134> Is there a good way to figure out how much performance is best suited?

I'm considering an upgrade to my 2013 MBP retina and it would be great to know how different configurations play out in terms of speed and battery life.

Typical benchmarks are quite difficult to translate to real life usage.

</comment><comment><USER135> To me this pricing sits too closely with the iPad Pro plus magic keyboard, which Apple has been trying to sell as good enough to be your next Computer. What's also puzzling is that the new iPad Pro and magic keyboard combo is so heavy it's basically a laptop.

<comment><USER91> The iPad Pro is heavier than the 2020 Macbook air, so.. yeah...

</comment></comment><comment><USER136> I'm still using the 2015 Macbook Pro (i7, 16GB RAM, 512 SSD) with an iPhone 6S to supplement.

So far, there has not been a reason to upgrade to any newer version of each. Maybe I'm just one of those in a small group that is content with the current experience.

<comment><USER137> I had the same setup, but the 2015 MBP died. Repair shop said it was the touchpad, then touchpad ribbon. neither fixed it.

2020 MBP 16 "feels" the same just a little faster.

</comment></comment><comment><USER138> I always find it so weird with laptops and TVs that they have loads of glossy pictures of just the screen, with some colourful picture, that I'm looking at on my monitor.

Are people looking at this and thinking "that is so much better than my monitor"?

</comment><comment><USER139> Still limited to 2 USB/TB ports on the base model (and precious little else). Want more than that and you're paying a minimum of $1800.

Between limited ports and soldered in storage/memory, it feels like Apple has gone all-in on disposable computers.

</comment><comment><USER140> Disappointing. Not 14", bezels look like they are from the 90's and the machine is rather heavy.

I am switching to XPS 13 developer edition. Goodbye Apple.

Hello Linux and a menu key on my keyboard. The greatest key that no one knows about.

</comment><comment><USER11> What are the most essential or coolest add-ons to get for a new MacBook Pro?

Is there a good all-or-many-in-one dongle with several USB or other ports?

Are the any options for extra power supplies?

Is there a good dock for using it with a big display on a desktop?

<comment><USER15> >Is there a good all-or-many-in-one dongle with several USB or other ports?

After struggling for a few years trying to use dongles I'm actually becoming convinced such a thing might not be possible. My screens flicker, my drives drop out all sorts of issues no matter what the dongle or the devices.

The other thing that points to this is the fact Apple doesn't just sell one, they could easily sell a USB-A/Display port/Power dock for around $400 and people would lap it up but curiously they don't because I think deep down they have realized the only reliable way to use a USB-C port is a one to one conversion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER141> I bought this in the high end configuration To be my primary personal computer. I haven't figured out what dock I'm going to buy yet, but will definitely be looking for a one-plug-for-everything setup.

<comment><USER142> I have an HP Z27 display that I really like for this reason. It's got one (usb-c) umbilical cord to my 15" MBP which provides power to the Mac, delivers video to the display, and then the display itself is a hub.

You can saturate one link though so I ended up having a second usb-c cord to a hub mounted with Velcro to the bottom of my desk for the situations where I need something like gigabit Ethernet or another peripheral.

</comment></comment><comment><USER143> "the best typing experience ever on a Mac notebook"

I guess this is a bit subjective, but a greatly prefer the keyboard on my 2010 MBP to the latest "magic" keyboard in the 16' MBPs

</comment><comment><USER144> so the new -macbook air has very poor cooling and throttles the cpu well below max capacity. -macbook 13" now costs 1800 solely for an up to date processor, a whopping 400$ to add 16gb of ram, no speaker upgrade, no 14" screen, no mini-led -macbook 16" seems like a good option but I returned it because it's just too heavy more unbearably so than the previous 15" I spent 3 years with. It is also already deprecated since the 10th gen upgrade and mini-led are around the corner

</comment><comment><USER145> So now all the MacBook Pro 13's have no physical function keys?

<comment><USER146> Yep. You can get a MBA though. Not nearly as "airy" as they used to be, given that the screen is 13" too and you can get a decent amount of RAM in there. CPU still isn't great, but probably you're not doing super CPU intensive stuff with a 13" MBP.

</comment></comment><comment><USER147> I literally just bought a new 13" macbook pro. It arrived just a few days ago! Do anyone know if they have any type of exchange service or am i stuck with the one a bought?

<comment><USER148> You can return anything you bought online within 14 days, no need to provide a justification.

[https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...](https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees- returns/index_en.htm)

</comment></comment><comment><USER149> I have to work with a Windows/Linux laptop and a MacBook Pro. It's very inconvenient when the MBP keyboard doesn't have Home, End, PageUp, PageDown and Delete.

<comment><USER48> I agree, however most of the hn crowd learnt to type on that keyboard layout so you won't have much sympathy here. Thank goodness for Lenovo keyboards.

</comment></comment><comment><USER150> I am surprised to don't see so much difference between the 13" and 16" prices. Other than that, good movement from Apple, listening to what the people wanted.

</comment><comment><USER151> I just don't understand what market Apple thinks they are targeting with the past few years of MacBook Pro releases, and I say this while on an early 2015 13" Pro.

If the Pro line is truly meant for professionals what does apple think they are accomplishing by getting rid of features that set them apart from the competition?

As a former Thinkpad x220 user the 2015's keys are not as good but they are good enough. When I contrast that to the absolutely horrendous keyboard on the 2017 model, I long for 2015 style keys with their somewhat existent key travel. The fact that a dedicated escape key was missing on the first keyboard revision baffles me, and makes me wonder what is going on in product design at Apple. I have not experienced their newest revision of the keyboard on the 16" so I cannot speak to that, but it seems to be received more positively than the 2017 model.

If the touch-bar were there to compliment the function keys instead of replace them I don't think it would be nearly as hated. As alexggordon mentioned, with BTT[0] much of the functionality of missing function keys is restored but why is third party software needed to give back full functionality on what is supposed to be a laptop for professionals?

On the IO port front, the loss of MagSafe charging is still felt, and while there are MagSafe like adapters for USB-C, I ask myself why does each new generation feel full of unneeded and unwanted compromise? Why can't Apple just stop at replacing the USB-3.0 & Thunderbolt ports with USB-C? A dongle for ethernet makes sense, a dongle for what seems to be everything is madness.

And what is Apples obsession with making their laptops ever-thinner? The Pro's are not netbooks from the early 2010s that you can fit in your pocket. Their obsession with making each generation thinner seems to cause thermal throttling, with the culprit always being... _insufficient cooling_. Shocker. Yet this is supposed to be laptop for professionals?

This isn't to say there haven't been improvements. Thinner bezels are always welcome and Apple clearly puts a great amount of thought into their displays and it does not go unnoticed. In addition MacBooks only seem to get better at increasing battery life at levels above the competition.

For the time being the _it just works_ factor of Mac OS and being able to use almost any linux package/program thanks to homebrew will probably keep me as a user, but I can't help but notice their _Pro_ lineup seems to less and less useful for professionals and makes me wonder who Apple thinks wants any of these changes.

[0] [https://folivora.ai/](https://folivora.ai/)

</comment><comment><USER152> So the question becomes now: who is buying this instead of a thinkpad/Linux equivalent laptop? Who is coming back to OSX now that the keyboards are better?

</comment><comment><USER120> The Apple Tax is becoming so ridiculous even the hardcore fans are getting pissed..

The price/specs don't make any sense even when compared to Apple a couple years ago.

<comment><USER153> _The price /specs don't make any sense even when compared to Apple a couple years ago._

Two years ago the prices were $1299, $1499, $1799 and $1999 for the off the shelf models. Currently the prices are $1299, $1499, $1799 and $1999.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20180503185423/https://www.apple...](https://web.archive.org/web/20180503185423/https://www.apple.com/shop/buy- mac/macbook-pro/13-inch)

</comment></comment><comment><USER154> For the ppl complaining about the ESC key, real vi users use a separate racing wheel with haptic feedback to get back to normal mode.

</comment><comment><USER155> I was hoping for a 14" version. Let's wait for the next version either with ARM or AMD CPUs and better graphics.

</comment><comment><USER156> Happy to see they're back to having a physical escape key. That's my biggest gripe with my current 13".

</comment><comment><USER157> If only it had an AMD processor and Nvidia GPU, then we might see some actual improvement to user experience.

</comment><comment><USER158> Someone else has probably mentioned this, but looks like they're trying to sell off old inventory (8th gen, two ports, etc.) with the lower spec versions. Hopefully they'll refine the product line once those are all gone.

Coming from a 2010 MacBook Pro, I'll be stoked to snag one of the higher end 13" Pros sometime this year. The 16" just isn't portable enough for my taste unfortunately.

</comment><comment><USER159> Why is anyone excited about a new MacBook? I'd be excited to know they make them last over 5 years.

</comment><comment><USER160> ₹200,000 indian rupee for 16inch model which is 2399$, ₹175,000 for 1799$ 13inch. Bad pricing will pass.

</comment><comment><USER161> :/... no 14". Still not a a proper FaceTime camera. Maybe they'll announce something during wwdc

<comment><USER15> Insane how poor the MacBook line cameras are for the machine price, even the $400 Surface Go puts them to shame.

</comment></comment><comment><USER162> The base 1299 model offers a three year old punt 1.4GhZ 8th gen processors and DDR3 ram .

</comment><comment><USER163> "the new inverted-"T" arrangement".

ROFL.

</comment><comment><USER164> > Better Trackpad

I've been using Dell for the last 6 months. This is the deal-breaker for me.

</comment><comment><USER165> really gotta love how "Physical Escape Key" is a feature they promote now.

</comment><comment><USER166> No one will acknowledge the use of "faster performance"? Alright.

</comment><comment><USER167> Someone reading this thread would wonder how Apple is still in business.

</comment><comment><USER168> Honestly, the take away from these discussions is to get a desktop PC.

<comment><USER169> I hope one day you grow as a person, and realise different people have different requirements, preferences and trade-offs.

I value macOS, I work away from a desk more often than on one, and my past Mac computers have lasted for longer than any other commodity desktop or laptop.

I'm currently replacing a perfectly functional 2011 MBP, and only because I have some bonus money, otherwise it would have gone another couple years without issue.

<comment><USER168> I realize that, of course. No need to insult me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER170> Wait...is that a hard escape key on there?! Emacs users rejoice! :)

<comment><USER171> Vim users too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER172> Man, it's a really good thing none of us are using video conferencing much these days, otherwise it would be really embarrassing for Apple to release a laptop with a 720p webcam.

</comment><comment><USER173> I like how dota2 gameplay was featured on there!

</comment><comment><USER174> No 14" ... why even bother? Major fail by Apple.

</comment><comment><USER175> Is there any good use of touch bar for coders?

<comment><USER29> I went in trying to be as charitable as possible, looked for workflows that might have opened up.

Unfortunately the answer is no.

The problem with trying to find a use for the touchbar can be illustrated with what the touchbar does when you're using Google Chrome: it shows you the current URL, and tapping it focuses Chrome's navigation bar. So it's basically a completely pointless round-trip from screen->touchbar->screen.

Any compelling touchbar feature has to somehow overcome that massive drawback.

</comment></comment><comment><USER176> Still the shitty touch bar - no thank you.

</comment><comment><USER177> What's the CPU model number and TDP?

</comment><comment><USER178> Can we comment on the web design on the page?

That mouseover highlight and share option is obnoxious. It's strange that Apple went that route.

</comment><comment><USER179> Wake me up when the new Macbook has more ports and better cooling.. the other improvements seem a little superficial.

</comment><comment><USER161> I actually think it's just a way to get the ordered components out of inventory.

No big announcement, 14" will come at wwdc

</comment><comment><USER180> I'd love to hear anyone's experience who has recently switched away from, or to a Mac.

Nice to see pro class features:

\- 32 GB Ram is overdue, nice speed.

\- 4 years to get a working keyboard that is reliable.

Missing pro class features:

\- Selling a 10th gen CPU 9 months after it's released at full price is disappointing.

\- No 6 core option like Dell or Lenovo.

\- The MacBook Pro is the first laptop that has claimed its pro, but has never offered its own docking solution. Surprising for a company that likes proprietary connectors. Professionals quite often dock to a desktop setup.

\- Not sure if the battery life can be trusted on the i7. I have yet to own an i7 13" MBP that delivers battery life as advertised.

\- Not going to a 14" (or waiting for the last possible moment to switch to 14") is a potential big miss. Lenovo and others have this figured out.

\- Unlike the MacBook Air, the MacBook Pro did not evolve its 13" design to offer something. The a Dell XPS 13 seems to have and offers a compelling package.

Having carried a MacBook for the better part of 15 years.. I switched when Windows Vista arrived and destroyed my computing environment with forced upgrades, In terms of performance and reliability, the 2014 13" i7 MacBook Pro could be the peak of Apple laptop quality and performance.

After 2015, the MBP continued its eating disorder obsession with thinness, which invited thermal issues as well as a keyboard that was never really ready for the real or professional world.

Current setup:

I purchased a i9 15" MBP a little over a year ago with 32 GB RAM. The ram has been nice, otherwise its generally been underwhelming and disappointing.

When picking this up, the Apple employee asked if I was excited because he personally hadn't see many of this spec sold. I mentioned to him after ones 10th or 15th laptop, you are more buying the death of a new device down the road.. than buying a new laptop... and I wasn't looking forward to migrating.

So far, it has needed a replaced screen, battery, keyboard. It suffers like many from the phantom kernel_task cpu issue if you plug the power and an accessory on the left side of the laptop that instantly goes away if you plug in one on each side. I might tolerate this from an inferiorly priced machine. I carry a large PD battery to top up the 3-4 hour battery life and keep the laptop charged when carrying it between meetings.

I wonder if it's normal for so many of my MacBooks to have gone in for repair, so many times, even though they remain in flawless condition physically years later.

I don't buy a laptop, I buy a warranty and a guarantee of a working laptop so my laptop is can become invisible, just work, etc.

All this.. to say I tried out Ubuntu 20 last week on a Lenovo Tiny PC. Which turned into 2 monitors. And multiple days of higher productivity than I may have had in a very long time. No fighting with docker, only using. It feels like the clarity older OS X environments provided.

I expected to try out windows again because I like the Surface Pro so much.

Now I'm only using the MacBook for business/research/communication tasks, no more external screens or keyboard, and no longer development and it's much more enjoyable to use.

I'm seeing many who were early converts to the Mac moving back to X1 Carbons and XPS 13's and the comments here are encouraging for me to consider other options.

</comment><comment><USER181> Until you remove the touchbar and let me run Linux on it, I will NOT give you a penny.

</comment><comment><USER181> Until you remove the touchbar and let me run linux on it, I will NOT give you a penny.

</comment><comment><USER182> What's with the 8th gen processors on the first two models? also the Dota2 screenshot is cool hah

<comment><USER183> It's unbelievable, and feels like potentially misleading advertising.

My 2019's MBP 16" can't really run Dota2 at the native resolution. The framerate is fluctuating widely, and it frequently drops to less than 30fps for me - without any real action going on and cosmetics equipped. And that's on supposedly much more performant Radeon Pro 5500M, not Intel Iris Plus.

Also, not really cool as the "player" isn't even pretending to play.

Sort of dual signalling going on "if you know what's going on in the picture - you get that it's all BS, otherwise look - you can play* games* on this laptop! shiny!"

</comment></comment><comment><USER184> summary: minimally updated cpu and storage. AND WE PUT BACK THE ESCAPE KEY LOT AT THE NICE PICURE (but don't us to explicitly say it). also we swear the keyboard might be fixed this time and we will leave you hanging if there's still a headphone port.

</comment><comment><USER185> Interesting to see that coding is recognised on the landing page, something that a lot of people here thought that Apple tried to distance from.

<comment><USER186> >there is still no physical escape key

Yes there is, it's clearly there in every picture of the keyboard.

<comment><USER185> My apologies, my eyes glossed over the tilde key and thought that was the end. My enthusiasm has returned!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER187> I see $1,299 translates to £1,299 as usual in the Apple world.

I'm glad hipsters have a new toy to sit in coffee shops with while browsing the web. I truly don't understand why people put up with them.

<comment><USER188> You don't understand why people put up with Apple consumers? Or Apple the company? Or specifically MacBook Pros?

</comment></comment><comment><USER189> 4 cores? Pro? 2020? lol

EDIT:

maybe 4 cores are enough for development using non-compiled languages, and if you don't use Chrome and Electron apps, and not running several VMs and docker containers.

Some programming languages like Julia and Erlang/Elixir will happily use all the cores available on your laptop to speed up calculations, run builds, tests and other development tasks.

<comment><USER190> 4 cores is actually more than enough to do almost all development. I work on a four core PC right now (i7-4770k) running Linux and couple VMs and containers, one VM dedicated to running Windows 10 which is in turn running Citrix client. I have two 4K monitors and bunch of hardware. I work on webapps, backend software, have couple IDEs running at the same time and probably Zoom session, not to mention huge amount of Chrome tabs.

It all works without hitch and if there is a hitch it is typically Chrome or Gnome misbehaving, not lack of cores.

<comment><USER135> I find compilation painful even on my desktop, and cost of operation is still on my mind when I'm trying to do a quick demo to people. I feel like people here who are professionals make enough to justify buying away these latencies and distractions.

<comment><USER190> I agree with your last sentence. As with any tools, it depends on your usage.

But saying that 4 cores is ridiculous misses the truth. A lot of people, myself included, use 4 core machines completely successfully.

If you need more, there is absolutely nothing wrong with paying more for more powerful machine. It's just not every PC on the market has to have absolutely most powerful configuration available at the moment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER190> I just looked to check. Still no physical Fn keys, still shallow butterfly keyboard. That's a pass.

Hopefully Apple comes to its senses some day and creates a computer that is designed for actual work, where a single beard follicle is not going to make it unusable midday.

<comment><USER191> The Magic Keyboard uses scissor switches, not butterfly.

<comment><USER190> And how do these scissors work with beard follicle? It's all the same to me, really, if it can't survive piece of hair. For the past 20 years I have been using Thinkpads.

My last one is T440s which I bought immediately it was available and still wait for it to die. I would like a MBP but seeing what the Thinkpad went through I just don't think so. I spilled stuff on it not once but twice, once hot latte and once a liter of mineral water in a bag. I had to open it and stand it on its side while open so that water drains out of it... Then I had to disassemble it and dry individual leaves of which the screen is composed of.

I had to take the rest of the day off in both cases to save my laptop but other than that I was ready for work the next day, files intact, tools in place.

<comment><USER192> T440s also uses scissors like almost every laptop

<comment><USER190> Thinkpad keyboard is completely unlike Apple keyboards, however the technology is called. Just the key travel on Thinkpad is probably more than entire thickness of Apple keyboard.

<comment><USER193> Having both a macbook and a Thinkpad, the Thinkpad trackpad is absolutely horrendous to use.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Things that helped me move into engineering management - <AUTHOR> https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/things-that-helped-me-successfully-move-into-engineering-management/ <comment><USER2> Also check out the book: Managing Humans: Biting and Humorous Tales of a Software Engineering Manager</comment>


Running 0 to 5K, took me 4 Years - <AUTHOR> http://www.xmsxmx.com/running-0-to-5k-in-4-years-2/ <comment><USER2> Like it, as a runner and European citizen I always get confused if someone refers to American miles or not, but 5k is always 5000meters regardless? Do Americans who run ever talk about miles?

<comment><AUTHOR> 5K is 5K for Americans as well, as per Wikipedia [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5K_run](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5K_run)</comment></comment>


Ask HN:How know you are overloaded or lazy/underqualified? - <AUTHOR> Well, yeah, everybody is really busy and tons of projects in the pipeline, pet projects connected with teach market and a long list of nice to have strategic changes or things to learn/read.
I'm facing a situation that I do not handle my load and I'm not sure is this that I'm lazy/underqualified or the load is objectively too much for a day? How you measure it?
Disclaimer: I'm not a developer, I'm a tech recruiter. <comment><USER2> You'll get performance conversations if you are not being productive enough, a business picks up on that sort of stuff quickly, so if you haven't had one then you are pulling your weight.

If you feel like your are working fairly constantly (no one is a machine, people have to zone out now and then throughout the day) then you aren't lazy.

It's easy for people to be busy/hyper-productive if their hobbies and work align, but that's not the case for everyone. You don't have to have side projects on the go to do your work well, be comfortable enjoying things outside of work whilst applying yourself to what you were hired to do.

Remember, with wherever or whatever you do, as long as you apply yourself to your work with honesty and give it your best shot the rest doesn't matter. You can only get done in a day as much as you are capable of, don't stress about comparing yourself to others, or fulfilling the impossible.

Of course if you want a promotion then that's where you have to somehow raise yourself above the rest, so the situation differs.

<comment><AUTHOR> oh, missed this. This is comforting and helpful, thanks! Especially you can accomplish only limited amount of work each day part :)

Well, being the lead of a small company I have to figure out on my own, can't rely on others' opinion on my team. What I was looking for is some kind of objective way to be comfortable I'm doing my best.</comment></comment>


Lightweight HTML5 Grooveshark Player - <AUTHOR> http://html5.grooveshark.com

<comment><USER2> Grooveshark is amazing. They have the best library out there hands down. Yes, they got it through piracy yadda yadda but they have more music than any of the legit services out there (I pay $9.99 for rdio per month..).

The thing is that I can find label music on Grooveshark (iTunes top 500 sort of stuff) but I can also easily find the most obscure stuff you can think of. So fan remixes, and regional music (Indian music, Pakistani music, Lebanese music, etc. etc.). The other services out there have a LONG way to go to make that happen.

<comment><USER3> Grooveshark has great breadth, but lacks in depth. There are lots of _types_ of music, but I find that they rarely have the specific artists that I'm looking for. (I mainly listen to power metal.)

Also, there are a lot of tracks that finish prematurely, are just static, or simply don't play. I've tried flagging them as broken, but Grooveshark keeps adding them to my playlists. There are also tons of tagging issues (ie: there's one album under "Battle Beast" and another under "BATTLE BEAST" for the same band), making it difficult to find things sometimes.

I agree, Grooveshark is the best one out there, but it's far from perfect.

<comment><USER4> I had loads of fun sharing mistagged songs on Facebook, fishing for those "less in the known".

My favorite mistag is "Freebird" by "Led Zeppelin". Also, I'm of firm belief no one ever fixes that, as I've reported loads. And that's ok with me. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> How the hell is Grooveshark still alive? Essentially it's a streaming frontend for illegaly uploaded music.

<comment><USER6> You could argue the same about Youtube, in some sense.

They do pay royalties to some artists, and at least for a while a lot of upcoming artists were advertising their new albums there. I discovered a bunch of great groups through that.

Unrelated with revenue, but I liked how some artists (Avicii comes to mind) ask you what do you think about X song when you play it in Grooveshark, that's some valuable direct feedback. The radios are awesome too.

Can't hide the fact I've been using it for years, but I truly think Grooveshark is the best music streaming service by far. Spotify's catalog is nowhere as large, Pandora misses on so many features, Last.fm recommendations are good but what else do they do...

<comment><USER7> You just supported his point. The best feature of Grooveshark is that it has a big library... because it's acquired illegally. I just listened to Drake's entire album thats coming out next week. Sweet, but totally illegal.

Rdio has a better interface, Spotify better social/apps, Pandora better radio. Grooveshark will die because it's only option is to eventually go legal, and then it loses it's only advantage.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is live for ages. I think they just started PR around this because it can now not die on iOS 7, running in background.

As a side note, try out Leap Motion playback controls on GS (in Settings > Subscription, wtf), they're super sweet. I just wave my hands around to control music, it's awesome!

<comment><USER8> they must've optimized it some more since I've last tried. it runs very snappily on the Nexus 4, as fast as a native app for the most part, and that hasn't been the case last time I tried it. well done.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Side note: my favorite radio show is uploaded to Grooveshark and the other day I needed to listen it offline, so I just used a proxy (fiddler) and save the stream from the proxy session console. There is an API where you can do the same, I think, because is just one request with the location of the MP3 audio. There are a lot of apps for downloading mp3 from Grooveshark but they usually came with a lot of crapware.

<comment><USER10> if do not mind Ruby. I am sure you can use [https://github.com/sosedoff/grooveshark](https://github.com/sosedoff/grooveshark) and wget.

<comment><USER9> The way I do it is much simple and it's not using the API. Just open the proxy sessions in Fiddler and save the response.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Handy to run via cli also: [https://npmjs.org/package/grooveshark- cli](https://npmjs.org/package/grooveshark-cli) [https://github.com/danopia/remora](https://github.com/danopia/remora)

<comment><USER10> remora seems to be outdated

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Grooveshark is good 'more so' for playing the music you have already discovered. I personally like 8 Tracks model, Its one of the best platform to discover new music. It doesnt encourage piracy and at the same time lets us get some good free music. Its spot on solution.

It also takes care of piracy really well. Its a radio, so there are limitation on you going back and front, at the same time you can listen to the playlist as many times as you want.

User upload their own music: Which means no piracy: You have your paid content you are just broadcasting to larger audience. Like having your own radio station.

</comment><comment><USER12> Odd. In Midori and Chromium, seems to work correctly. In Firefox, it appears crippled and I get 38 errors on the console -- SyntaxError, TypeError, ReferenceError -- including:

[09:42:19.907] SyntaxError: in strict mode code, functions may be declared only at top level or immediately within another function @ [http://html5.grooveshark.com/build/app.min.js:1](http://html5.grooveshark.com/build/app.min.js:1)

<comment><USER13> Looks like its trying to run the site in strict JS mode. Do you have any extensions that might be forcing this?

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> The HTML5 player has been standard for at least a year now for GS. The two primary reasons I've avoided it are: \- Lack of broadcasts. (Presumably available in their native app.) \- Lack of wired.com-esque topnav position fixing in Chrome mobile. It's a minor thing, but having the entire page shift down every time you scroll can lead to incorrect menu selections when mindlessly selecting music.

</comment><comment><USER15> I would use this all the time but there's one problem: the song doesn't advance to the next one on my iphone unless Safari is open. So, my phone has to be on with the screen on or the music ends when a song ends. (Grooveshark has had this player for a while... I haven't tried it in iOS 7).

<comment><USER13> We're currently working on a solution for this. The problem is that Safari stops running javascript and allowing us to stream audio after the phone has been off for some time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Grooveshark has been my favorite online music player for last 3 years, but recently I have observed a lot of bugs on their site, which hinders smoooth experience and forces me to consider alternatives.

<comment><USER17> Used to love Grooveshark, but the music quality started to get a little too hit-or-miss for me. I find "normal" radio services like TuneIn, Pandora, and now iTunes Radio to be an overall better experience.

I am impressed that Grooveshark is still kicking, though, as I don't hear much about them outside of random articles on HN.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> GrooveShark is great, but because of the user-uploaded content half the songs are incorrectly tagged and the albums are mostly incomplete.

</comment><comment><USER19> If you access the site from Germany, they tell you that they have shut down in Germany because of too high operating costs.

<comment><USER20> It's the same from Denmark. I guess most EU countries are cut off from Grooveshark these days.

<comment><USER21> Surprisingly, it works fine here in Italy too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I love grooveshark so much, I don't really have much to say other than that.

</comment><comment><USER23> I've been using this for ever. I think I deserve hipster brownie points.

</comment><comment><USER24> I can make a radio station based on my playlist anymore?

</comment><comment><USER25> Where is the volume button?

<comment><USER13> I think the intention is that you change the volume on your phone.

<comment><USER25> Yes. I was suspecting this but since this works pretty well on the desktop as well (I actually prefer it over the normal interface) I think a volume button might be useful.</comment></comment></comment>