An unidentifiable mechanism that helps bypass the Great Firewall of China - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/trojan-gfw/trojan <comment><USER2> This page has more details than the "executive summary" [https://github.com/trojan- gfw/trojan/blob/master/docs/protoc...](https://github.com/trojan- gfw/trojan/blob/master/docs/protocol.md)

As far as I understand it:

1\. Client connects to the standard HTTPS port.

2\. If it provides a packet with the right (encrypted) password, then the server acts as a SOCKS5 proxy.

3\. If it doesn't provide the right password, the server responds like a normal HTTP server over the TLS connection.

Seems pretty clever, the hard bit is making sure the passwords don't leak and the firewall starts bombarding suspect servers with requests (brute-forcing passwords). Also if there are timing differences between a genuinely confused HTTP server and a "Trojan" server faking the confusion, they'd figure that out too.

Also, things like continuous back-and-forth between the client and a simple webserver would be suspicious, because usually clients send small requests in bursts, get the response, and activity would stop (it doesn't apply to streaming sites, obviously, but there the clients won't be as chatty either). So things like Skype calls might be easily recognized...

<comment><USER3> Yes; there is some discussion of attacks in [https://github.com/trojan- gfw/trojan/issues/14](https://github.com/trojan-gfw/trojan/issues/14).

Personally, I'd be _very_ careful telling people to rely on my software for avoiding the Chinese surveillance - traffic analysis is _terrifyingly_ powerful.

<comment><USER4> For the people currently using random forks of ShadowsocksR they purchased via shady backchannels, an alternative that is less likely to get blocked is probably more important than absolute security guarantees. After all, most users of censorship circumvention tools aren't secretly plotting revolution, they just want to watch YouTube.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I think anything looking to serve China should at least avoid hosting on github pages until encrypted SNI is widely available. When someone visits the online documentation at trojan-gfw.github.io, the FQDN is sent plaintext as part of HTTPS.

If the data is plainly on github.com (like the wiki), it would at least require an MITM to see what you are reading. Of course an MITM might be likely in China regardless.

It's also worth noting the Tor project has done a lot of work in this area: [https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/pluggable- transports.ht...](https://2019.www.torproject.org/docs/pluggable- transports.html.en)

<comment><USER6> > the FQDN is sent plaintext as part of HTTPS.

Can you please elaborate on that? domain name is sent after ssl handshake, no? Why is it sent plaintext?

<comment><USER7> A given server might be hosting multiple websites, each with a different certificate (e.g. a CDN endpoint). It needs to know which certificate to present to the user. Therefore, during the initial TLS handshake, the client sends the server name (hostname) in _plaintext_ in a field called the Server Name Indication (SNI). This is mandated by the fact that a certificate identifies a website, not a server.

This is distinct from the HTTP Host: header, which is sent inside the TLS session and therefore is encrypted along with the rest of the HTTP request.

<comment><USER8> SNI is an optional extension and is legal to be missing. No SNI - no problem.

<comment><USER9> You won't be able to reach any web server that is sharing more than one hostname per IP that way.

This includes all sites on a free Cloudflare plan to my knowledge.

<comment><USER8> Cloudflare terminates ssl at the edge, no? Then it has the private key and has no need to care about the site certificate. It just sends a certificate with all hosts in alt names.

<comment><USER9> Cloudflare has way more customers/hostnames than what would fit into a single X.509 certificate. (They actually do seem to do what you describe to support non-SNI clients, but not on their free tier.)

SNI also allows decoupling TLS and TCP termination, which in turn allows for shared IP addresses and load balancers without necessarily delegating TLS termination and exposing certificates to some shared host.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I don't think it would be very difficult for the Chinese government to demand a compromised root cert authority be installed on every device sold there.

<comment><USER11> They certainly can try, but major vendor will resist. Kazakhstan government has tried this method[1]. They sure can try sneaky ways, but any imported laptop connecting to hotel Wi-Fi could reveal it.

[1]: [https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2019/08/21/protecting- our-...](https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2019/08/21/protecting-our-users-in- kazakhstan/)

<comment><USER12> >They certainly can try, but major vendor will resist

It's China. Apple/Microsoft isn't going to resist. Google might not resist because they're already banned there so they've got nothing to lose. Regardless, it doesn't really matter because there's a bunch of homegrown chromium forks that can readily replace Chrome.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "unidentifiable mechanism" I'm not sure this is actually true.

You can determine that it is a VPN by checking the amount of exchanged packets between interval of time (e.g. if 5 kbps are routinely sent every 30 seconds for 5 minutes this is totally abnormal)

Another alternative for the government could be to limit the bandwidth and time of hosts who have a big standard deviation in the amount of the packets per second they transmit.

So undetectable I don't think so and I believe smarter people here can find even better ideas.

That being said it's a very nice tool, certainly useful in corporate environments as well (except of course, that it'll be suspicious that one single host is exchanging so much data and keeping so long connections)

</comment><comment><USER14> Maybe subscribe to satellite internet

</comment><comment><USER15> it took me a few minutes to figure out what "GFW" meant

<comment><USER16> I honestly thought Games For Windows

<comment><USER17> I was thinking it was either Games for Windows or Git for Windows, and missed "Great Firewall" on first skim of the Readme.</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: We were tired of listening to crappy startup pitches, so created this - <AUTHOR> We organize hackathons and events and the most challenging part is always the same - pitch review/listening/watching. We created a tool wich allows saving the time when picking up right teams.<p>http://pitcher.azurewebsites.net <comment><USER2> You should delete this.

<comment><USER3> Why?</comment></comment>


Why Your Employees Are Losing Motivation - <AUTHOR> http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/5289.html <comment><USER2> For those interested in this subject, I would suggest looking into ROWE - Results-Only Work Environment.

<http://gorowe.com/>

The basic tenet of ROWE is to stop doing busy-work, and start doing only what matters. Stop wasting everyone's time. All meetings are optional. You work when and where and how you like, as long as the job gets done. That's key, by the way... _as long as the job gets done_.

The most common objection in the corporate world seems to be "but how will we know if people are doing their job if they aren't in the office from 9 - 5?" and the answer, of course is "how do you know now?" (hint: for the most part, you don't, unless you have clear goals and are judging people solely on output rather than on face-time etc.)

In a start-up this is hardly an issue!

<comment><USER3> A problem I see in a big company with judging people on their output rather than closely monitoring their hours is that if you do have an employee that is only doing say 2 hours work a day but is getting as much done as some of the people putting in 8 you want to identify them and give them adequate compensation so that you get the full time out of them and as a consequence get more done.

I think flexible work hours are great in a motivated group with clear goals but they could be costly if you have an unmotivated group doing it for the paycheck.

<comment><USER2> > _only doing say 2 hours work a day_

Right! However the employee actually has a couple of choices at this point... either they can have a lot of free time, start a startup, go snowboarding, etc, or they can go to their manager and negotiate. From what I've heard, both of these actually occur.

Another interesting trend is that employees tweak what they're doing and start working more efficiently, increasing a teams output by as much as 35% without working "more".

> _[it] could be costly if you have an unmotivated group doing it for the > paycheck_

It would appear that lack of motivation shows up in lack of results and the unmotivated group quickly has to find another job. In one case, a company fired nearly 90% of a particular department, but the retention rate sky rocketed, so their costs went way down, even when you include the cost of having to look for and hire new people.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> _A critical condition for employee enthusiasm is a clear, credible, and inspiring organizational purpose: in effect, a "reason for being" that translates for workers into a "reason for being there" that goes above and beyond money.

Every manager should be able to expressly state a strong purpose for his unit._

Out of all of these points, I'd say this is the most important. If you can't tell people _why_ they're doing what they're doing, and convince them that it's important, then you've lost already.

<comment><USER5> I wanted to post a long comment about my current journey in corporate life, but really, this is all that needs to be said. If you feel like you have no purpose, you will have no purpose, and you will get used to it. Don't.

<comment><USER6> Can you elaborate ? I have been in similar situations before where the organization didn't have a purpose and the strictly top-down management didn't have that much experience to know that they were headed down the wrong path (even when the employees told them so)

It was pretty hard to motivate oneself in that environment. Even when you tell yourself that you have a purpose and try to do your best, you always know what the reality is.

<comment><USER5> Sure, glad to. You can also ping me off HN if you want.

For me, the realization started at my last job. We were a really small, but matured startup from the dot com boom. I joined, and stayed a single year. I left because we had no purpose, or rather I didn't know where we were going or why. The CTO made goals for me, and basically they equated to building new products and features into our existing offerings. The only problem was, no one knew what those should be. So I spent the better part of a year just building things, throwing them away, and building them again.

We went to a company meeting, a once a year affair, and I finally met our CEO. He told all of IT to stop building new things. I figured, okay, we're going to stop and do some bug fixes. I got back to the office, and absolutely nothing changed. One layoff, a few server outages, and countless prototypes being thrown out I'd had enough. So I did what I thought would be my out, I applied for a new position at a huge company. One that would have to have a forward vision to survive, and a budget to keep me up to date and well paid.

I ended up where I am now, and at first everything was clear. Our objectives were laid out in requirements, the requirements made sense (mostly), and when we met them everyone was happy. Until the customer got ahold of it. Which was fine, until the customer completely changed their mind.

Everything started to sound familiar at that point. We would promise the impossible, deliver what we could, and almost never push back. We started to develop things before they were fully spec'd even while keeping a waterfall development model. It was just... messy.

The only difference between this and my first position was that the goal was clear, but the true question of "Why are we building this?" was still not answered. I've built or helped build about 4-5 systems for the Fortune 50 company I work for over the past two years. Of those, I would never use any of them. Ever. The total audience for our usual application is maybe 50 people, and they _have_ to use it to do their job.

So I learned that even having a purpose can mean nothing when that purpose is futile. I've been rewriting legacy applications in an already legacy framework. Of those applications, most of them could have been covered by building one standard application that handled a more generic use case. Instead we built each one, individually, on top of archaic tools and frameworks.

I'm ashamed to admit that I've gotten used to being less than optimally productive. I've learned to put things off, and to manage expectations. I used to burn through line items, and get things _done_ , but all that seems meaningless when you have no idea where you're going or why.

So now, in an effort to fix it all, I've joined the leadership program at my division of our company. Unfortunately, I can't move on to my next assignment until June. The program promises to give me more visibility, experience and an accellerated career path. The best part, though, is that I get to change positions every 6-9 months.

Sounds like it is just what the doctor ordered, but only time will tell. For now though, I remain incredibly burnt out. They want spell check implemented for everything on their 50+ field form, using a vendor supplied input field. Meanwhile, the viewstate is hovering around 1.5mb and we still don't have a session database.

<comment><USER7> Great post! I think my main attraction to startups is that there is a much more reasonable chance of answering this question successfully. That is, everyone can put their heads together and come up with a coherent plan of action, which though certainly imperfect, at least has well-understood reasoning and awareness behind it.

In a large company it's orders of magnitude more difficult to create a persistent vision. Certainly with the right management talent it can be done, but it's damn hard and I have no strong desire to be a part of it (though I would join a well-oiled corporate team).

<comment><USER6> I once worked for a well-oiled corporate team. It was actually a startup team acquired by the big company. That was the best work experience I have had so far. The team members got along really well and everyone worked really hard and was at the top of their game.

I have worked at a few other companies since then (big co, small well funded team at medium co, small co) but haven't found anything quite like that experience. I guess that's why it was a successful team: people were really productive and looked forward to coming to work, truly enjoying the work environment.

EDIT: The team knew where they were going and what the priorities were. The clarity of vision and enthusiasm goes a VERY long way towards creating a winning team.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Good tips. I love my job right now, salary is good, work is not too hard, I have time to learn new skills. However, one thing that is frustrating is that there are those on my team that refuse to work and management never disciplines them for any reason. They are allowed to just collect a paycheck, while only putting in about 2 hours of actual work every week. This is mentioned in the article.

Any tips for me? Just suck it up and try to do good at my job is what I've been doing for the last 3 years, but sometimes it gets frustrating.

<comment><USER9> That's been every job I've ever been at. I think employers are just too nice sometimes. It works in your favor when something comes up and you need them to be understanding but it's hard to stay motivated sometimes when you either need to clean up after someone's mess or know that someone just isn't doing anything. With some people I'd rather them stay out of the way than have to fix the build every day or redo pages they did because they did something crazy.

<comment><USER8> Good point... sometimes it's better not to get much work from some people. They do more harm than good.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Curiously, I'd come to a few of these conclusions myself since I started working for my current employer. A lot of people make that sort of Knowing Face when I tell them that I work for my husband. Sure, switching from being the boss to being the bossed, during work hours, leads to some occasional friction,... :-) But because of our unique relationship, there is a measure of equity and communication that I've only ever felt from one other employer (and that only from my immediate superior).

At least one of my former employers would pat himself on the back after reading this, completely blind to the impact on moral of his constant threats to fire us. So while these things make sense when you read them, obviously some self-(awareness|respect) is necessary to understand and act on them.</comment>


The DAO Hacker Is Getting Away - <AUTHOR> http://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-dao-hacker-getting-away-classic/ <comment><USER2> "DAO Hacker" and "getting away" are very loaded bits of language that point to an interpretation of events that differ, AFAICT, from reality.

The DAO contract was neither hacked nor broken. This individual used the features and functions of the contract in unexpected ways, but ways that were legitimate nonetheless.

<comment><USER3> This argument also rests on an assumption over and above the function of the system: that the result of executing a contract is immutable and thus beyond reproach. As was demonstrated, the result is subject to ratification by miners. To miners on the new chain, the DAO hacker is a hacker.

Certainly it was the case that ethereum contacts were advertised as immutable and beyond reproach, but if you bought into that, well... you'd be making the same error you see in your ideological opponents!

It is a separate question whether ethereum contacts _ought_ to be immutable, but that requires a different type of argument.

<comment><USER4> The issue in my opinion is that the Ethereum maintainers actively helped create a hard fork to steal Ether from the so-called "hacker". This crosses a line.

Sadly, the DAO had major bugs and the time to do something about them was before it launched.

It's not the end of the world, though it does place Ethereum in the category of "easily corruptible human organizations" which makes it largely ineffective for the sorts of things that made it most exciting.

Ethereum may become more distributed which would make this sort of consensus more difficult to achieve, or it may be replaced by something that has a more corruption-resistant governance structure.

The basic idea underlying the holocaust, the Iraq war, and pretty much any human atrocity is that _the ends justify the means_. This is exactly the argument that hard forkers made. But, much like the Iraq war, the president should not have ever had the sole discretion to launch a war, nor should such a small number of interested people have the ability to launch a hard fork.

Apologies for the hyperbole, but I think it's helpful to illustrate the core issue.

<comment><USER5> the hacker actively exploited a flaw in the ethereum system to steal money from unwi{tt,ll}ing users. saying that that was okay because the platonic nature of smart contracts allowed it is saying that the means justified the ends, which does not work either.

<comment><USER6> > _unwi{tt,ll}ing_

There is absolutely no reason to type like this.

<comment><USER7> Yes, " _unwi{t,l}^2ing_ " would have been less repetitive.

<comment><USER6> Ah but then you would have had to press the Shift key and use another keystroke!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think the most interesting part of the DAO story is the 'white hat hackers' situation. Prior to the fork, these people also hacked the DAO, basically stealing all the remaining ETH that the original attacker had failed to take. It was justified at the time because they claimed to be a 'robin hood group', trying to save the money of DAO victims.

However, now the fork has happened, these same hackers have vanished, or disavowed anything to do with the hacking, despite the fact that they now control millions of dollars worth of other people's money. They 'stole' from the rich but now don't want to let go of their takings. I wonder how they try to justify their action/inaction now?

</comment><comment><USER9> I don't see this often discussed, but the DAO always seemed pretty shady, even prior to the hack. This was a system meant to function as an autonomous investment platform, but I couldn't find any details that explained exactly how the recipients of the investment funds were meant to be held accountable for the money they received. Ultimately, the eth would have needed to be cashed out into spendable money so that the business could pay for expenses and grow the company, but an eth contract is incapable of forcing the company to put fiat money back into the DAO and it's not a stretch to imagine a situation where the recipients do not agree to use the money in a fashion that is entirely inline with the intent of the investors or even fulfill _any_ of the obligations stipulated as conditions of the investment. This was a scam waiting to happen even if the contract _did_ function as intended by the authors.

<comment><USER10> >This was a scam waiting to happen even if the contract did function as intended by the authors.

I have said this from the beginning. From a purely logical point as a potential investor, you should ask yourself, why would an autonomous investment platform (borrowing your phrasing) require all the funds up front?

In other words, look at kickstarter/gofund me, how skeptical would everyone have been if they asked for investors money before there was even an investment opportunity? Even with the fork, I think they should have returned everyone's money to them, and allow them to buy membership/voting right to the DAO for a nominal fee that would allow them to invest in future investment opportunities.

<comment><USER9> Indeed. It seems to me that the only concern was building hype for the DAO (in order to solicit further investments) and ethereum in general. I kept seeing claims about how smart contracts would enable autonomous corporations to pay employees and run factories and other clearly impossible things, everyone was so excited about the possibilities that nobody sat down to critically examine what is actually possible.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I was chatting in the DAO slack chatrooms early on ( before any of this hacking news ). I was looking to legitimately fund a company using the DAO software ( still looking for funding... )

Pretty much every developer there told me the thing was unsafe, untested, and should not be used for any real business ( yet ).

Not very surprised about any of this.

<comment><USER12> So why are you still looking? :)

<comment><USER11> Well, if anyone is interested in doing a seed or angel round for a profitable PAAS / FAAS, check out my profile and shoot me an email: email@example.com

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> There is an interesting relationship between ETC and ETH community.

ETC reddit[0] and ETH reddit[1] can provide some information for those interested in the debate.

[0]: [https://www.reddit.com/r/EthereumClassic/](https://www.reddit.com/r/EthereumClassic/) [1]: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum)

</comment><comment><USER14> Does this mean that there are now two Ethereum blockchains running concurrently?

<comment><USER15> Ugh, yes. The minority who didn't want the hard fork have continued to use the old chain. They constantly try to promote it and troll the 'bailout chain'.

It was supposed to be a vote on whether to fork or not, then leave the deprecated chain behind. The vote for the fork succeeded, and all the developers of Ethereum and 99% of the developers for apps on the chain have decided to go with the vote. Everything is being done on the main chain, ETH, Ethereum. The old deprecated chain is now called ETC, they named themselves Ethereum Classic.

<comment><USER9> Why ugh? They want to support the old chain for ideological reasons, what's the problem with that? Isn't that the whole point of these blockchain systems (i.e. that a centralized authority does not control the system)? I am a pretty big blockchain critic, but schadenfreude aside, I think the eth/etc split is a decent demonstration of the fact that these systems have legitimate resistance to centralized authority, even when ethereum's influential creator is the authority. It's not stable and eth's buggy contracts are not reliable, but as far as blockchain money goes it has lived up to the ideals of the enthusiasts.

<comment><USER8> The vitriol in r/ethereum is an amazing sight. There are cult-like levels of declarations of support for either chain. It's astounding, considering both chains are basically the same system, and that prior to the DAO 'theft', everyone seemed to be proponents of the 'code is law' viewpoint. How quickly things change, and how little time it takes for people to switch their beliefs and villify those who still hold the old beliefs.

It's certainly fun to watch the fallout...

<comment><USER16> > It's astounding, considering both chains are basically the same system

They aren't at all. Immutable smart contracts are the basis of ETC and not ETH. It's only one difference, but it's a difference as fundamental as the difference between gold and dollars.

ETH is now a centralized currency. I have trouble seeing any purpose to using ETH now that it's centralized, given that existing centralized money/contract systems are much more mature. But given both ETH and ETC are too buggy for me to use, I've no skin in the game, so I'm happy to wait and see if some benefit to a centralized cryptocurrency emerges that I wasn't aware of.

<comment><USER7> Doesn't this episode illustrate that ETC could go the way of ETH, whenever the miners decide? ETH was always ETH, it just took a while for people to realize it.

<comment><USER16> Mathematically yes, there's nothing preventing ETC from doing the same thing. But ideologically, the lines have been drawn. At least for the time being, I think it's a safe bet that people who aren't committed to decentralization will just go with ETH instead of investing in ETC and voting for future forks.

Again though, I think the design of both cryptocurrencies is prohibitively error-prone, so it's kind of a moot point.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I haven't been tracking this closely. Any chance the DAO "hacker" was influential in keeping the "classic" chain around?

<comment><USER18> Considering that the DAO hacker has the most to gain from the "classic" chain still having value, there is a significant chance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I lost money to the "hacker", but I fully support the original, untainted, "the code is the contract" blockchain.

</comment><comment><USER20> This all reminds me of what happened to VeriCoin and the MintPal heist. A hacker stole millions in coins, but the devs of VeriCoin rolled it back and in one fell swoop stopped one theft but cut the floor out from under themselves.

What's needed is a cryptocurrency that cannot, under any circumstances, be rolled back. Otherwise crypto is a fiat currency just like all other modern currencies that can be manipulated.

<comment><USER21> > that cannot, under any circumstances, be rolled back

But getting hacked is ok, right?

<comment><USER22> I've once heard an argument that one of the desirable properties of the legal system is that its decisions, even if bad, are considered as final by everyone. This sounds kinda similarly.

<comment><USER21> OTOH, legal systems consider humans and their motivations to be first-class entities.

The same is not true for a cryptocurrency system.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> How can the hacker get away with moving any ETC out of his account, if everyone can see?

<comment><USER24> For starters, it's not even clear if this constitutes theft or just a clever hack in a system that originally claimed "code = law". IIRC, the DAO hacker anonymously published a statement claiming that all the ETH was rightfully his, and any attempts to do otherwise would be met with lawyers.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I last saw this story when the fork looked like it was going to succeed. Did enough people really dig in their heels for the immutable chain that they're going to let the guy get away with robbery? Oh man.

Ah, hardcore libertarians. You're all completely mad, but I won't deny you're consistent.

<comment><USER26> The issue is more complex than that. The DAO was created and backed by people who are also Ethereum developers, and forking the entire block chain to save what many people consider to be a badly thought out and badly executed experiment is just as dubious as some of the things that were done to save mega-banks in 2008. It's a clear case of moral hazard among other issues.

Many of the people who are backing Ethereum Classic (the non-fork) are doing so because they like the ideas of Ethereum but want it to be truly independent. If the fork succeeds many people take it as a sign that Ethereum is a "proprietary" coin rather than a more open "nobody owns it" system like Bitcoin.

I have no dog in the fight but that's how I understand it.

<comment><USER25> > as dubious as some of the things that were done to save mega-banks in 2008.

That's a good analogy, but not for the reason you're thinking. The expert consensus on the 2008 bank bailouts is that they had to be done, because letting them fail would've turned the recession into another Great Depression, and that much harder to recover from. Does that mean bailouts are good and proper? No, bailouts are terrible. It means the right way to avoid the moral hazard would have been to better regulate the banks and never have let them get "too big to fail" in the first place.

I feel the same way about Ethereum. The DAO hack was a no-win situation, because these "smart contracts" should never have been created to begin with. They're always going to end up in situations like this, because they involve the affairs of messy, imperfect humans. The correct answer to the DAO mess was never to get into it in the first place.

<comment><USER4> > The correct answer to the DAO mess was never to get into it in the first > place.

I don't think this is true at all. The DAO is (and was) a very cool idea. The only problem was that the code was complex enough that those who casually reviewed it failed to notice the vulnerability that the attacker noticed.

As for the financial crisis, it was a combination of an unexpected event and entrenched interests scrambling to benefit as much as possible from it. By definition, entrenched interests want a continuation of the status quo, and that is what happened. We think about how bad it would have been if some homeowners would have foreclosed, but we fail to think about the people who would have been able to afford a home at a great price.

<comment><USER7> We also fail to imagine the future crises that were made inevitable by the bailouts. If we wanted bankers to learn, we shouldn't have shielded them from the consequences of their poor decisions.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Short-sightedness linked to longer time spent in education - open-source-ux https://www.nhs.uk/news/lifestyle-and-exercise/short-sightedness-linked-longer-time-spent-education/ <comment><AUTHOR> For some reason, I thought this was relating a lack of long-term vision rather than actual vision. I wonder if there's a study for that too--either narrowing or foreshortening scope of thought.</comment>


Ask HN: How many of you aren't on facebook ?  - <AUTHOR>

 How many of you out there aren't on face book or other "social" networking sites ; I specifically mean sites such as facebook , myspace , orkut. It would be great if you could reason out too. I frequently hear about people quitting "FB" and wanted to understand what turns off ppl. <comment><USER2> I created a facebook account a few years ago; looked around; decided that there wasn't anything interesting to see; logged out; and promptly forgot my password. I haven't heard anything since which makes me think that I'm missing anything.

</comment><comment><USER3> [tldr; "a girl"]

I deactivated my fb because I didn't really use it. I'm not mr. social and I felt that if anyone needed to reach me _and really wanted to reach me_ the extra effort was worth it. I especially didn't like this idea of mass fb invites. I don't want to be a checkbox on a list to get invited to a party. I know I know, its convenient, but I'm just stubborn like that.

Ok, mostly I deactivated my fb account because my last gf and I parted ways and it was not a good idea to have that absurd of a connection with someone you have to let go. - yes, blocking was not enough, I needed to drop off the face of the planet for a little while ...

Turns out its not that bad at all.

I am an edge case, people can have their facebook, I'm just the type of guy that rather have 2 lifetime ultra friends, rather then 3,000 facebooky friends. Is it mutually exclusive? Who knows.

Why don't people hand write letters any more? Because in a world of text messages and email its the _hugest pain in the ass_ to hand write a letter. -Yeah.

And that is _exactly_ the reason why any girlfriend of mine is going to get a damned hand written letter every now and then until the end of time.

-Yeah.

</comment><comment><USER4> Not on FB, MySpace, or Twitter. Accounts on all three lasted no more than a week. Reason? Spectacularly mundane way to interact with other humans who live dull lives.

</comment><comment><USER5> No Facebook, MySpace etc. and never have. I can not really find time for any more activities at the moment, online or offline, and Facebook is very low on priorities list so it does not make it. I guess I just see no benefits from having an account.

I have a LinkedIn account though - created when I was last looking for a job. I almost never login though, but sometimes people that know me in real life send invitations to join their network, and I accept. That pretty much sums my activities.

</comment><comment><USER6> I deactivated my Facebook account. It was a privacy thing, I suppose. There are probably only 20 people I feel totally comfortable with. There are about 100 people that I don't. It just got too awkward ignoring repeated friend requests.

If Facebook let me choose to be entirely hidden, except to those 20 people, and only let me initiate outgoing friend requests I'd reactivate my account. I know there are friend lists, but I don't think there's anyway to use them to do this.

</comment><comment><USER7> I only use Facebook and Hacker News (and a couple of forums: BoS and FreelanceSwitch). I use Facebook because all (yes, with no exception) my friends are their and we have fun commenting at videos or chatting. Sure I do control my time on FaceBook and the overall experience was always great.

</comment><comment><USER8> Not a one of them - all a silly waste of time and an accident waiting to happen for the unwary.

</comment><comment><USER9> I've never had a Facebook or MySpace account. I am on LinkedIn because a former boss was all excited about it and asked everyone to sign up, but I rarely log in or update my profile

<comment><USER10> I am also on LinkedIn, and am linked to many of my current and past colleagues. However, we rarely use it communicate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I got kicked off. I was posting too many links. :-)</comment>


The Cloud Is Just Another Sun by Kyle Rankin at North Bay Linux Users' Group - <AUTHOR> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/394692998 <comment><USER2> Was an interesting talk, many tidbits / perspective from the 90s. Definitely made me think about recent activity in the cloud space.</comment>


Leonard Cohen on Poetry, Music and Why He Left the Zen Monastery - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/2016/10/21/498810429/leonard-cohen-on-poetry-music-and-why-he-left-the-zen-monastery <comment><USER2> Malcolm Gladwell (author of _Blink, Tipping Point,_ etc) has an interesting podcast about Leonard Cohen's song, and how it took a couple of fortuitous happenings before the original was reinterpreted into a popular song.

[http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/07-hallelujah](http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/07-hallelujah)</comment>


Of Brainiacs and Billionaires - <AUTHOR> http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201206/brainiacs-and-billionaires

<comment><USER2> Previous submission (no comments) 105 days ago:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4296021></comment>


Russia's approval of a Covid-19 vaccine is less than meets the press release - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08/russia-s-approval-covid-19-vaccine-less-meets-press-release <comment><USER2> Russia followed a known recipe that several other vaccine makes are following. So far it has passed the first creation of antibody tests and the creation of the second level done on volunteers and medical people. These are the phase 1 and 2 parts. Phase 3 is the expanded test of thousands of people, with half getting the real vaccine and half gettinga fake or placebo. Then you watch them for 6 months and count the sick and dead and look up what they got = confirm or deny the vaccine effectiveness and safety. Russia has taken a chance that they were right and is vaccinating many people with no placebo arm to verify. Time will tell. In 3 months the numbers will be in and Russia will fail or succeed on those numbers. If they succeed = huge gains for Russia. The rest of the world will be 4-5 months behind. If they fail......</comment>


The power of find and xargs - <AUTHOR> http://danielmiessler.com/study/find/

<comment><USER2> xargs cannot replace {} with a lot of arguments, so if mv did not have --target-directory, then xargs would have to do:

       find ... | xargs -0 -i {} mv {} ~/Pictures

which would run one mv per file.

GNU Parallel <http://www.gnu.org/software/parallel/> allows for replacing {} with multiple arguments. So this would do the right thing:

       find ... | parallel -X -0 mv {} ~/Pictures

GNU Parallel is useful for many other applications. Watch the intro video to learn more: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpaiGYxkSuQ>

</comment><comment><USER3> The examples are somewhat forced:

        find ~/Desktop -name "*.jpg" -o -name "*.gif" -o -name "*.png" \
        -print0 | xargs -0 mv --target-directory ~/Pictures

What's wrong with this?...

        mv ~/Desktop/**/*.{jpg,gif,png} ~/Pictures

<comment><USER4> Indeed. With zsh (and I guess more recent bash's), a lot of find is no longer necessary.

The real nugget in there is using xargs _AT ALL_. A lot of people don't know about it and continue with the -exec option of find. Which works fine still, but is horribly inefficient. Although to be fair, I haven't found this inefficiency to be even measurable (in real time-wasted units) unless the process being exec'd is slow to start.</comment></comment>


60 Hours of Hell: The Story of the Barkley Marathons - <AUTHOR> https://www.outsideonline.com/1924491/60-hours-hell-story-barkley-marathons <comment><USER2> Discussed 10 days ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14873639](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14873639)</comment>


Microsoft hard at work getting Windows to run on OLPC computers - <AUTHOR> http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN2514082920071026?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&sp=true <comment><USER2> "The laptops were designed specifically to run Linux programs. If the machines run only Linux, Microsoft will lose an opportunity to expose tens of millions of children worldwide to its Windows system."

Sounds like a great opportunity for desktop Linux. Let's hope they stick with it.</comment>


Computer Vision Syndrome - <AUTHOR> https://laravel-news.com/2016/09/computer-vision-syndrome/ <comment><USER2> I use to get headaches every day (the kind that seem to originate behind the bridge of the nose). One day in effort to reduce the ache (a desperation move I didn't know would work out not) I reduced the brightness level in my monitor to the lowest possible setting. It slightly helped me cope with the rest of the day at work, but I forgot to reset the monitor. The next day I didn't get a headache. Turning down the brightness to the lowest level is now something I do with every monitor I use. Coworkers always comment the first time the see my screen "how do you see anything on that?" But the truth is you adjust really fast and don't even notice it's so dark. Best of all, I don't get headaches anymore.

This may not have been CVS, but I felt it was related to looking at screens all day so I wanted to share.

I frequently hear coworkers complaining about headaches and recommend they decrease their screen brightness. They always provide their own reasoning for the headache cause that makes it unavoidable. I shrug because I can't make them try my suggestion. But it would be interesting to have someone else try and get some feedback if the solution works for others (identifying my problem as a work hazard rather than a personnel condition).

<comment><USER3> A rule of thumb I've heard is that your monitor shouldn't be any brighter than a sheet of white paper held next to it.

[http://i.imgur.com/5Cwiuif.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/5Cwiuif.jpg)

Mine isn't quite that dim, but it's not nearly as bright as the view out the window behind it.

<comment><USER4> It certainly should not be the brightest thing within your sight.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Eye Health (not unlike other areas of health) has a lot of FUD around it.

A lot of the recent "awareness" of CVS is based off people who want to sell you blue light blocking glasses.

This infographic is one of my favorite examples: [http://vspblog.com/blue- light-infographic/](http://vspblog.com/blue-light-infographic/)

There's lots of numbers and statistics there, but none of it is actually scientific. The closest you get is that "VSP Optometrists report a 50% increase in digital eye strain and the effects of blue light exposure."

But I can promise you as someone on the receiving end of VSP's marketing to eye care professionals, that they're marketing the bejeezus out of their blue light blocking technology to their eye care professionals.

So, if you're an optometrist and you have a financial incentive to sell blue- light blocking coatings, and you're getting tons of marketing about the epidemic of digital eye strain in your inbox and mailbox and the publications you read, of course you're going to notice an increase of its incidents in your patients.

If you're experiencing discomfort from using your computer for hours every day, you should absolutely do things to alleviate that discomfort. But the thing that all this marketing and FUD leaves out, is that there's no evidence that blue light exposure (from digital devices) or CVS or digital eye strain or whatever they'll be calling it in a week causes any long-term damage to your eyes.

From the American Academy of Ophthalmology[1]: "Staring at your computer screen, smartphone or other digital devices for long periods won't cause permanent eye damage, but your eyes may feel dry and tired."

[1]: [http://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/computer- usage](http://www.aao.org/eye-health/tips-prevention/computer-usage)

<comment><USER6> "From the American Academy of Ophthalmology[1]: "Staring at your computer screen, smartphone or other digital devices for long periods won't cause permanent eye damage, but your eyes may feel dry and tired.""

I always believed this myself but I wonder what kind of research has been done to back it up. Intuitively, staring at a computer screen for 8+ hours a day for year after year would not seem to be a good thing.

Indeed this article seems to claim different:

"As you sit in front of the screen, your eyes dry out, and you stop blinking. Over time this leads to damage of the eye muscle that is used to focus on far away objects and damage to the tear ducts."

<comment><USER7> I'm always suspicious of advice from organizations that would benefit from misinformation (e.g. "Cigarettes are good for you" \- the Cigarette Industry or "Looking at screens isn't going to cause you to need more eye doctor services" \- some eye doctors).

<comment><USER8> This is good advice in general, but seems a bit misapplied here- most eye doctors are likely to make more from selling you unnecessary services now then by subtly lying to you in order to damage your eyes :).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> My retired optometrist friend recommended that I wear reading glasses with a very low power at all times while using the computer, and I do that now. They're .75x or 1x, I can't remember. I don't need them--nothing is blurry without them--but they help your lenses to relax by doing some of their work at close distances.

The condition he wants me to avoid is called nearpoint stress, but sounds very similar to me (a layperson). It culminates in your eyes lenses becoming "stuck," unable to fully relax to focus properly on things at a distance. I guess the reason is that your cilliary muscles (that alter the shape of the lens) become overworked to the point of a spasm.

One symptom of that is looking up from your computer and objects being blurry for a few seconds, but then coming into focus.

<comment><USER10> I just wish local drugstores sold sub +1.00 reading glasses. I've only been able to find them online, so it becomes a game of buy +0.25, +0.50, and +0.75, and then go through the hassle of returning two of them (likely at a loss). Optometrists may carry them, but they're so much more expensive than anywhere else. Anyone know of a better solution to find the strength that's right for me?

<comment><USER9> I found a pair at the dollar store once (+1).

My +0.75 pair I found walmart.

That said, I often find the same thing as you, that nobody sells them. It's very hit-and-miss, so I just check the racks frequently and see what turns up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> one of the most essential pieces of software in my opinion:

flux: [https://justgetflux.com/](https://justgetflux.com/)

and now that I've been running linux, redshift: [http://jonls.dk/redshift/](http://jonls.dk/redshift/)

I find it hard to use a computer without these now

<comment><USER12> flux&al adjust colour temp, but be very kind on the backlight any time of the day. Some screens are so stupidly bright it's like staring at a bright bulb all day long. If at all possible use a screen that adjusts backlight automatically according to ambient light. And no, you really don't need _that much_ brightness, just don't turn it all the way down either!

<comment><USER13> Do you know any good automatic-adjustment add-ons? I'd like to use the OS X option, but it seems to automatically adjust to ~2 notches above what I want. So something to use the same relative changes, but a lower absolute brightness, would be perfect. Right now I just do it by hand.

<comment><USER14> I think OS X built-in setting work just like that. I.e. turn on automatic brightness, then move slider to make screen dimmer.

I've just tried making the screen really dim, then pointed flashlight onto light sensor. The screen went super bright, but after turning flashlight off it got back to my dim setting.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I have seen a few ophthalmologists seeking treatment for a condition resulting from computer use. I think CVS is a catch all that makes sense on the surface but doesn't really address the damage that has been done. There is some interesting research being done in this area, but it has taken a while for the eye health community to catch up.

My story goes back over 4 years ago, one day like the flick of a switch I could barely keep my eyes open. Now I live with it but it is extremely uncomfortable and distracting and I no longer hack on anything outside of work. My issue isn't so much dry eyes but strained and fatigued eyes. Imagine the most tired and strained eyes you've ever experienced. Multiply that by 10 and that is how my eyes feel starting from the moment I wake up. Luckily I still have 20/20.

Basically, let this be a warning not to take for granted your eye health.

<comment><USER16> I was in a similar situation for a couple of years. Recently I started doing warm compresses on my eyes and it has made a huge difference.

I also recommend changing one thing about your routine every week and keeping an eye pain diary. That will help you identify things that help. It takes some work, but as you said eye health is super important.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I looked into break timers a while back, but I wanted something really simple that I didn't need to install. I wrote a blog post about how to make a simple break timer with OS X notifications and AppleScript: [https://reberhardt.com/blog/2016/02/09/a-dead-simple- break-t...](https://reberhardt.com/blog/2016/02/09/a-dead-simple-break-timer- for-mac.html)

<comment><USER18> Thank you, this worked. I just tweaked a bit to run through crontab and added a notification sound for the extra push :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Anyone know of a break-taking app that watches your activity and can wait until you've lost focus on your work before reminding you to take a break?

Something like the alarms that wake you up at the right point in your sleep cycle.

It would probably need to have a cut-off eventually, but I'd hate to be interrupted in the middle of tracing some complex logic if there's a perfect stopping point 10 minutes later.

<comment><USER20> It's called a dog :)

<comment><USER21> Or children (when working at home).

Or managers (when in the office). :)

Joking aside, I view this as a necessary balance required in life. Even if my primary activity needs a lot of solo concentration, I must embrace the distactions as having value for reasons mentioned in the article. We are not ultra-specialized machines, even if we specialize in very narrow fields, we still live a life that comes with variety, diversity and in an environment filled with beneficial chaos.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think there is something with reading angle too: [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aos.13148/abstrac...](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aos.13148/abstract)

"Reading in a sitting posture at myopia onset predicted the greatest myopic progression to adulthood and reading face up on one's back the lowest. Reading with eyes on turned more downwards was slightly connected with greater myopic progression."

I had some major vision problems a couple of years ago, to the point I didn't touch a computer for about 4 months. iPad and iPhone screens weren't bothering me so I got to keep working.

My suggestion to people having severe problems is to strip apart every variable and test. A few things I have suspicions about which I have rarely seen addressed:

\- switching between low & high DPI screens

\- lights/screens which are not on the same frequency

\- viewing angle (referring back to the myopia study.) Prior to a standing desk I would always lean back in my chair - going back to when I was like 11 years old.

From my opinion, if you took best practices and worst practices, and then like did all the worst ones you would be fucked pretty quickly. You could take someone in great health and give them chronic pain in weeks or a few month. Doctor's advice shouldn't be ignored, especially when something fatal may be occurring, but in many cases they may have no helpful advice.

Ergonomic / RSI / Carpel tunnel issues apply here as well. I've mentioned before I had severe RSI with chronic, 24/7 pain for years, and exhaustive attempts to fix it eventually cured it. Unfortunately as I get older I've also had to acknowledge that our bodies get less and less capable of fixing themselves. At the least we can try really hard to do things which aren't aggravating the decline.

<comment><USER23> How did you eventually get over your RSI? I've been struggling through my own for a few years now and haven't had any real improvement.

<comment><USER24> I realize you weren't asking me, but as I had it many, many years ago I'll describe it, before I go into what I did.

One day, I woke up and both hands felt a bit odd, painful and tingling all the time. The next day, I woke up and both hands were burning. I had no strength, and no fine control at all. When I did tense them, it felt like I was holding my hands under a running hot tap. I couldn't hold a fork to get food to my mouth, I couldn't even hold a key to get it into the lock to open the door.

I was studying at the time, and obviously couldn't continue that. No doctor was able to help me, I was put on anti-inflamatories that were completely ineffective. I started drinking to deal with the pain, and within a couple of months I was drinking 3.2 gallons (12 liters) of beer a day, just to dull the pain.

Once the pain died away, I was still left with some serious problems. Fortunately alcohol dependence was not one of them (I just stopped drinking). Any repetitive motion that lasted more than a few minutes would cause me a day or more of pain. I found I was unable to reliably hold things, and I could just lose my grip on whatever was in my hands. Many glasses and cups were smashed because I just couldn't hold them.

So here's when I figured out what was wrong: many of my problems were related to a significant loss of strength. Because I had been unable to do anything for more than three months, I had lost much of the strength in my hands and forearms. Stamina, too. This meant that when I did anything repetitive, I was straining the muscles beyond their ability to cope.

I sold my computers, and grabbed a pair of free weights I had lying around. The "free" part is important, because machines reduce the load on ancillary muscles. I started doing some very basic arm strength exercises (curls and reverse curls). However, training yourself is something I would recommend against - find a reputable physiotherapist and have them set you out a basic rehab program, and get a muscle balance assessment, too. You could find that you have other issues that are causing your problems - I still have serious muscle tension issues that I am working on, with the assistance of a physio.

I studied personal training some years after, and I've found that it's so very easy to screw it up when you do it all yourself. I met one guy who thought he was just a paragon of bodybuilding - he was bench pressing well over 200 pounds, but his lat pulldowns were limited to just 30 or 40 pounds. His shoulders were rounded so far forward that you couldn't see any definition in his pecs.

The main reason I recommend a physio rather than a Personal Trainer (PT) is that, as I said, you may have some biomechanical issues that need sorting out, and no matter how much a PT may claim they can do this kind of thing, they are not medical professionals. A PT would be helpful in making sure you you are biomechanically sound in implementing the physio's program, but there's no substitute for real medical help.

I hope this helps you, good luck.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Surprised this article doesn't mention Bias lighting: [http://www.howtogeek.com/213464/how-to-decrease-eye- fatigue-...](http://www.howtogeek.com/213464/how-to-decrease-eye-fatigue- while-watching-tv-and-gaming-with-bias-lighting/)

<comment><USER26> I'm a strong believer in bias lighting, and that it critically needs to be either incandescent or sunlight-based. Putting one flickering light source next to another (perceptible or not) causes more trouble, in my personal experience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> _" He recommended I use a hot compress at least once a week for 10 minutes and to look away from the screen in a method called the 20-20-20-20 rule. Every 20 minutes take 20 seconds to look at an object at least 20 feet away and blink 20 times."_

Is there any evidence that this treatment actually works?

<comment><USER28> I can give only anecdotal evidence. I do this reasonably regularly. It's mainly to combat meibomian gland dysfunction and works by heating up the oils in and around the glands so that the dry build-up clears, and the glands can function a bit more normally. They should be releasing oil throughout the day to keep the surface of your eye from drying out.

I think you need to be careful not to overdo compresses, and associated massage, as the glands are also delicate and you can damage them, but for me it results in much more comfortable eyes and better vision when I do it semi regularly.

<comment><USER29> I've been doing this on and off for decades now, thanks to blepharitis and the associated gland dysfunction you mention. The fact that I stare at a screen all day certainly doesn't help and I've had to stop wearing contact lenses even though my prescription is quite strong and any sort of glasses screw up my peripheral vision.

The downside to the compress (other than the one you mentioned) is the simple fact that I can't always just nuke my little eye-pad thing and lean back for 10 minutes several times per day at work. Even when I'm able to do it a few times per day as my eye doctors have suggested, any relief is relatively short-lived and doesn't treat anything long-term.

It sucks because my eyes almost always feel irritated or dry and no manner of lubricating drops, antibiotic drops, or hot compresses have helped. I've tried a few less tested but ultimately harmless things like fish oil supplements (since they're cheap and effects seem to range from unnoticeable to possible systemic benefits in the long term).

My takeaway has been that there's really no "cure" for blepharitis or chronic inflammation and meibomian gland dysfunction. All you can really do is minimize the things that exacerbate it and deal with it.

<comment><USER30> Well no cure aside maybe not looking at a backlight. I really wish there were marketed displays without a backlight. There's got to be a way.

<comment><USER13> I've been wanting this for ages. And more simply, I want brightness controls that go all the way down to zero.

<comment><USER30> Seems like there could be a Kickstarter. I'd want a high resolution external eink display as a secondary monitor. The refresh rate would be hell, but it'd be okay for text work.

<comment><USER31> There's the Dasung Paperlike e-ink monitor:

[https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/paperlike-world-s- first-e...](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/paperlike-world-s-first-e-ink- monitor-13-3#/)

However, it's only 13.3" in size and, as you noted, it is limited by the refresh rate of e-ink.

<comment><USER13> This is still pretty appealing - I could stand to put static or near-static text there. I'd probably want to add it to my current pair of monitors, though, instead of subbing one out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I am thinking my habit of drinking lots of water / tea / yerba mate helps. Means I get up and go for a piss every hour at least. Drinking lots of water is generally seen as a good thing.

<comment><USER33> Why is drinking water a good thing?

<comment><USER34> Just staying properly hydrated.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> One thing I discovered through an _ad hoc_ anecdotal experiment involving only myself, over a quarter century ago, was the effect of font size. As a CS undergrad I was working like crazy in the lab for many hours a day. The display-hardware was B&W X window terminals (cathode ray, of course) with 19" screens. I had this idea: if I make things easier to read even when my eyes are tired, I can boost my endurance, right? So I switched to using large fonts. This had exactly the opposite effect; my fatigue symptoms became worse, because I was able to ignore the status of my eyes and keep going (without even consciously realizing it). If the fonts are big enough, you don't even have to blink any more; you can still read if your eyes dry out, ha! A that point I experienced an "aha" moment, and tried it the opposite way: I used a smaller font than the default. Like magic, my fatigue symptoms soon went away. I hypothesized that this is because small fonts create a negative feedback. When your eyes start to lose focus, you cannot read the screen any more. Firstly, you are forced to blink more often to keep your eyes moist. Second, you have no choice but to relax and not squint or strain. When the feedback mechanism does break, _you 're_ forced to take a break simply because you cannot ignore the fact that you're having trouble reading what's on the screen.

Since that time, I have always used small fonts and haven't had any problems. Plus, when CRT's started to disappear around the turn of the century, that was a fantastic change. Solid-state screens are much easier on the eyes.

</comment><comment><USER36> What about good old dark editor themes or, better: Inverting of screen colours? Staring at a bright computer screen for hours is a recipe for tired, red eyes. And all operating systems offer negative screen colours. On OS X it is an accessibility option and has the standard shortcut control+option+command + 8.

Android and iOS also can do this. On iOS it's again an accessibility option, press the home button three times after it is activated and you will be able to read HN much longer (also, a black+blue HN is nice).

I am using this option so much that I finally switched from Ubuntu to OS X on the desktop after an Ubuntu upgrade at that time eliminated negative screen colours (and hibernation, but this is a different story), and it was impossible to bring it back.

I also like Flux darkroom, but after some time it gives you the feeling of being in a horror movie.

<comment><USER37> I get an extreme ghosting effect after reading on an inverted color screen for even a minute or less.

I don't generally hear others complain. Maybe it's rare.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Here's the 2014 article referenced (it's a good summary): [http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/MPR/article-full- tex...](http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/MPR/article-full-text- pdf/0905F9948599)

After a particularly intense few weeks of work of computer-based work, I started getting double vision every time I tried to read or type at a computer screen. Initially it was rather disturbing.

Recovery was 3 days away from screen time and time outdoors (focusing eyes on far away things). I've definitely reformed my habits to spend time looking out the window more.

Also, flux is a requirement for any screen I use.

</comment><comment><USER39> This is one of those cases where it's important to remember that not all equipment is born the same when it comes to ergonomics, even when it features similar specs.

I have a 2012 MBP Retina, in retina mode (scaled at half the native resolution).; I can look at it for hours and hours without any problem. I also have a larger 4K screen from Iiyama, also "in retina mode"; after about an hour staring at it, my eyes are so dry that they are forced to cry, and headaches are much more frequent when I stick to that.

Somebody should do for monitors what Hermann Miller did for chairs.

<comment><USER40> I haven't seen them myself, but the TrueTone displays in Apple's newest iPad pro seems to put a lot of work into this, particularly in automatically matching the color temperature of the surrounding light.

Some HN discussion about that: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11546490](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11546490)

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> From what I understand VR goggles have collimator to focus eyes of the user at infinity. I was wondering: are there collimator spectacles? Would they help? Would they interfere with text reading?

</comment><comment><USER42> The irony of light grey body text on this article.

Here is the "You Hate Your Readers' Eyes" quiz. Is your body typeface...

* Sans-serif?

* Thin?

* Gray, the lighter the better?

Good work! You hate your readers' eyes!

</comment><comment><USER43> I suffer of CVS big time, I had to apply tons of eye-drops every few hours due the dry and burning sensation on my eyes and some days I won't even catch much sleep because my eyes hurted so badly and keept me awake.

What helped me a lot was a pair of Gunnar glasses (cristaline version) plus taking short brakes every 25min (Podoro Technique helps with this). The Gunnar glasses alone took me to cut down my use of eye-drops to 1 or 2 times a day.

So I honestly recommend the glasses, but wait for the style you like to be on sale (I bought mines 30% off) and if you are not sure about the meassures of your head, go with the Sheadog ones, I have a big head, and those fit me perfectly and are very light weight.

<comment><USER44> This sounds like you are diagnosing yourself with something that may not exist.

<comment><USER43> It could be that the name I give to the symptoms is not appropiate (even when who diagnosed me with CVS was an optimetrician not me...) nevertheless the symptoms are quite real... And, fortunatelly, I have found a solution that works quite well on coping with it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> That's a pretty plausible explanation for why my eyesight has gone down the drain in the past couple years. And I'm young, I can't be losing my vision just yet.

I suppose I should ask my optometrist about this.

<comment><USER46> I had 20/20 vision until I was 33, then over the next couple of years I noticed my site getting worse until I tried on a friends pair of glasses and everything went crisp.

I asked the optometrist what would cause my eyes to go bad and she just said "How many hours a day do you look at a computer screen?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> My advice is don't mancave or cubicle if you have an option. Fight for that window seat at work. I'd rather have a window cubicle than a windowless office. Enjoy the view every couple minutes.

</comment><comment><USER21> I don't know if this is good or bad but wearing contact lens while on the computer does help me notice much faster when my eyes dry up. That prompts me to blink and look around.

</comment><comment><USER48> I'm sure it's not true but... Once I got a high refresh rate IPS monitor, a lot of my eye problems (dry, red, tired) went away. Hmm.

</comment><comment><USER49> I have been using [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/deluminate/iebboop...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/deluminate/iebboopaeangfpceklajfohhbpkkfiaa) to invert webpages colors (as they are often very bright), it has worked mostly well.

</comment><comment><USER50> I also had issues with my eyes, which fit the symptoms described. I solved it by wearing glasses with a varying dioptric up and below the centre.

That way your eye has to re-focus as you look up and down on the screen.

The glasses also have a tinted glass that's supposed to help.

Mine are from the company starting with Gu... when searching for "computer screen glasses".

</comment><comment><USER51> I am not sure if this is the place to show code, but here's a small script which can help you remind about looking away from monitor and follow 20-20 rule (only for MAC-OS):

while : do

      for run in {1..5}
      do
          sleep 1
          tput bel
          echo "Eye Beep"
      done

      sleep 1200

done

</comment><comment><USER52> One of the best things that's happened for my eyes in regards to looking at compute screens all day was getting upgraded from a 1366x768 laptop to a 13" Retina Macbook Pro. Even though the text is way smaller on my MBP, everything is so easy to read.

</comment><comment><USER53> I made a tiny website that implements the 20-20-20 rule via Notifications API.

Another thing that has helped a lot: get a better monitor.

[https://johnbartos.github.io/eyebreak/](https://johnbartos.github.io/eyebreak/)

</comment><comment><USER54> It's hard to take articles like this seriously when they end with affiliate links.

</comment><comment><USER55> I occasionally see screens change shape from the typical rectangle to trapezoid. That's when I would just shut down and go outside or do something else.

This effect could last the rest of the day/evening for me.

</comment><comment><USER56> I thought this would be about how computer vision is distracting AI researchers from other areas of AI. I guess computer vision has multiple definitions now.

</comment><comment><USER57> over the last 10 years of being on a computer for at least 10 hours a day my distance vision has been obliterated. i used to have 20/15 vision and now i have 20/50 vision.

I'm positive the screens are the issue. My toddler nieces stand a foot away from tvs and every time i see it i beg their parents to not let them subject their developing eyes to that.

<comment><USER58> How do you know it was computers and not just age in general?

<comment><USER33> IIRC there is no scientific consensus that computer usage causes near or far sightedness.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> The person who advised developers to turn on the television in order to distract them all day obviously isn't a developer.

</comment><comment><USER60> Flux + EyeLeo is the way to go for me, I know my job already damaged my eyes but this helps reduce head aches and dry eyes.

<comment><USER61> Something like Eyeleo for osx?

<comment><USER62> found one for linux [https://github.com/slgobinath/SafeEyes](https://github.com/slgobinath/SafeEyes) (written in python with gtk , so maybe use this? [http://www.gtk.org/download/macos.php](http://www.gtk.org/download/macos.php))

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER63> In case you have this problem. Flexseed is very helpful.

</comment><comment><USER64> I bought a pair of Gunnar computer glasses

</comment><comment><USER65> I feel incredibly lucky that I don't suffer from any of these symptoms, as I sit, and have sat, in front of my computer for ~14 of my available waking hours each day for the past... 10 years?

8 hours a day at work, and I then come home and game for 3 or 4 more, sometimes as much as 9 or10 additional hours, and have not yet felt anything as described here.

I may do these exercises naturally, as part of my existing habits, because I'm fairly easily distracted.

<comment><USER66> Give it a few more years.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Against dry eyes,a micro controller and two airbrush pistols with natrium- destilled water solution. Its a shame there is no ready made solution built into or upon glasses...

PS: Huge glasses that cover the eyes also protect against moisture loss.

<comment><USER65> Goggles. They may fog up, however.

</comment></comment><comment><USER68> > Computer vision syndrome or CVS (not to be confused with Concurrent Versions > System)

It remains an open question which CVS is more harmful to software developers.

</comment><comment><USER69> This is another pointless diagnosis of a cluster of issues centered on an activity. Instead of, you know, centered on the disease. Kind of like diagnosing bad software with "HeadUpButt Developer Syndrome". Cute, a cocktail party line, but not the same as medicine.

<comment><USER9> It's not a disease, though.

It's a condition; one that results from a specific type of activity (extended close work, which is not what our eyes are intended to do).

<comment><USER69> Thanks; I agonized over what word to use. 'Condition' sounds right.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> YOU get SSI, and YOU get SSI... and YOU, and YOU. Disability checks all around!

EDIT: Thanks for all the downvotes guys, it's good to know that humor has no place here.

<comment><USER71> To be honest, humor really doesn't have a place at HN when not accompanied by an attempt at a real contribution to the discussion.</comment></comment>


Bernie Sanders suspends presidential campaign - <AUTHOR> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bernie-sanders-drops-out-suspending-campaign/ <comment><USER2> I have several video recordings of the major left leaning news networks running audio ads over bernie speaking while joe and pete were allowed to speak freely, at length even. How is this possible that in 2020 an election can be so obviously rigged by keeping the candidates from speaking to their supporters via news coverage? Even news anchors that spoke of bernie were silenced for the rest of the broadcast.

Confirmation bias likely, but I'm still shocked.

</comment><comment><USER3> This was always going to happen, unfortunately.

The DNC hasn't changed in four years, and they opposed Bernie this time just like last time. He's not their preferred candidate. It's even mostly the same people.

They're instead pushing Biden, who despite Bernie's statement may simply not be electable. So, we may well end up with Trump being re-elected because the Democrats don't care... him being re-elected means it's that much easier for them to shoehorn their candidate into the office in 2024. They don't care about the damage that will be done in the meantime.

So, because both parties in our system won't change and won't allow any change to the system because it would threaten their choke hold. They'll pretty much maintain this situation until the country burns unless they're forced to change.

So... unless people want to just put up with four more years of slow death, I think the only possibility for progress is for the States to decide to change things.

</comment><comment><USER4> Goodnight, sweet prince.</comment>


Facebook banned cryptocurrency ads but it still shows them anyhow - <AUTHOR> https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2018/02/01/facebook-cryptocurrency-ico-ads-ban/ <comment><USER2> What is the source of this news? I feel like this is not an official news from the facebook. maybe this is fake news from media?</comment>


Using computer algorithms, 400 firms accounted for 73% of US equity volume - <AUTHOR> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a5f03366-6d69-11de-8b19-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

<comment><AUTHOR> Trading equities has turned into a casino. With bots.

<comment><USER2> I thought that was pretty common knowledge. Is it a bad state of affairs?

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't think it's common knowledge. New York Times just did a piece on how companies like goldman sachs profit from high frequency trading

[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/business/24trading.html?_r...](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/business/24trading.html?_r=3&partner=rss&emc=rss)</comment></comment></comment>


Waymo's excruciatingly gradual launch process, explained - <AUTHOR> https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/10/waymos-excruciatingly-gradual-launch-process-explained/ <comment><AUTHOR> People discussing the original medium post this article is talking about: [https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/9srz7z/a_g...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/9srz7z/a_green_light_for_waymos_driverless_testing_in/)</comment>


FDA says stop using all THC vaping products - <AUTHOR> https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/statement-consumer-warning-stop-using-thc-vaping-products-amid-ongoing-investigation-lung-illnesses <comment><USER2> I wonder if anyone has looked at whether it is simply the heat causing the damage. I see 200W mod kits on the web, which is a lot of heat to be inhaling. Maybe some vape pens are missing a filter which cools the vapor? Or the vapor doesn't get cooled as much if the pen is used continuously and starts to warm up? Seems like an obvious possibility.</comment>


S. Korean Banks Fall Victim to Biggest Cyber Attack in Two Years - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-03-20/s-dot-korea-hit-by-cyber-attack-roiling-banks-to-broadcasters <comment><USER2> Expect more of the same from South Korea in the weeks, months, and (unfortunately) years to come. These massive attacks have been happening for many years now, and nobody seems to have learned a thing.

The latest news here in Korea says that bank employees' PCs were infected through a compromised third-party package management system. Only two years ago, 35 million accounts at one of South Korea's most popular social networking services was compromised through a similar route: the attackers broke into the update servers of a popular antivirus software, which was used on employees' PCs. Same story, only with different companies.

And of course, by "PC", I mean machines running Windows XP with the user always logged in as administrator and IE's security setting somewhere between Medium-Low and Low, because how else are you going to browse the ActiveX web? The companies that provide package management systems and antivirus software probably also use similar PCs, which is likely to be one of the reasons why they got compromised in the first place.

Macs are getting popular nowadays among chic teenagers and college kids, but on the other hand, a long-time member of an IT forum that I frequent recently asked whether he should upgrade from IE6 to IE8 on his primary computer. We might make the best Android phones in the world, but the rest of South Korea's IT infrastructure is nothing but a series of facepalms.

And the first thing the leaders do is blame North Korea. Which they have been doing every time something similar happened in the last 4-5 years. I don't know whether it's actually NK or not, but as for improving the system, nope, my brother's university still asks him to disable several of IE9's security measures every time he logs in.

<comment> chao- A year ago we looked into how feasible it would be to expand operations of our company beyond the US. Because we have a Korean-born Korean as a core team member, it was placed very high on the list of countries to explore. That spot lasted about fifteen minutes. By law in South Korea, you have to use an ActiveX plugin (and therefore IE) to process eCommerce transactions [1].

Looking it up just now to see what has changed in six months, I see that it's not strictly true anymore. The official policy allows for other browsers, but none of the steps necessary to allow those browsers have occurred.

[1] [http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/how-south-korea- became...](http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/how-south-korea-became-slave- to-microsoft-internet-explorer-223429)

<comment><USER2> Yep, the official policy now allows for other browsers, and even encourages banks to implement web standards. But nobody is willing to implement the software that is necessary to port the current public key infrastructure to non-Windows, non-IE platforms, simply because there is not much money to be made. Some of the large banks have come up with half-baked cross-platform services to appeal to rich kids with Macs, but payment gateways have not changed at all.

Only geeks use Chrome here, and I'm probably the only person in my town who uses Firefox. Mobile, of course, is a very large market, but banks just write their own Android & iOS apps and call it a day.

<comment><USER3> Oh well, another country where it is a matter of (little) time until visa/mastercard/16 digit number cards breaks through.

I don't understand these people's reasoning. Relentless innovation is how you become and stay the best. Kicking down the competition, secure in your market position is how you die. It may take a bitcoin, but sooner or later these companies are doomed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Bit confused..

"A possible cyber attack temporarily shut down computer networks" ... "Operations at the two banks were back to normal later in the afternoon and it was still unclear what caused the disruptions"

So it might have been a cyber attack. It might not.

"President Park Geun Hye's administration created a cyber crisis headquarters to investigate whether North Korea is behind the outages"

I would have thought it would have been created to see if it actually was a cyber attack before assigning blame.

In the UK banking systems have failed repeatedly in recent months. The first thought isn't a cyber attack. The first thought is banks messed up.

I don't get why tensions would rise if currently they cannot even determine if it is a cyber attack or not.

<comment><USER5> Because this is exactly the scenario that plays out every time North Korea "attacks" South Korea. No one ever owns it, just like with the submarine <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10129703>. It's an "accident" or it's inconclusive.

Also, neither side wants to conclusively blame the other, because hey, they're still at odds. Stepping a single foot into the DMZ without permission can get you shot at.

SK is probably trying to give them the benefit of the doubt but is relatively sure it was them.

<comment><USER6> I would think it has little to do with the benefit of the doubt and everything to do with retaliation and escalation.

If the South found that the North definitely sunk a South submarine, the people would (more loudly) call for retaliation. And while everyone is certain what that would lead to, no-one's quite sure where it would end and no-one doubts that the losses for all involved will massively dwarf the loss of a single ship.

And there's always the possibility that the South really was in the wrong. That their ship had violated an agreement by doing something they'd rather not publicize.

(Not unlike the subdued US reaction to the EP3/Mig-21 collision in 2001. Were the US 'innocent' the rhetoric would have sounded much different than it did. But even then, the risks of escalation far outweigh the losses at hand.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Honest, slightly unrelevant question: does North Korea have access to the world wide web? And if so, who do they connect through?

<comment><USER8> Yeah, but I think it's limited to a select few, as you might expect. They also have their own DNS system IIRC.

<comment><USER9> It seems unlikely that with such restricted access to technology they would be able to cultivate top-calibre talent for cyber attacks.

<comment><USER10> I agree, though if the top post in this thread is correct, it doesn't look like they really need _top_ talent.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> FWIW, i believe this was a hack involving their use of package management IPM (Isis Packagement Management): <http://help.unc.edu/help/isis-package-manager- ipm/>.

this is similar to ruby's package management hack earlier, but this time at a software level with ability to infect PC's/servers/etc...

</comment><comment><USER12> Do North Korea have the expertise to do such attack? It sounds to me more likely that supporters of North Korea did it (say groups inside China).

<comment><USER13> From the Korea Herald:

"According to South Korean experts, Pyongyang's electronic warfare capabilities are second only to Russia and the United States."

Not sure how accurate THAT statement is, but North Korea has waged electronic warfare multiple times in the past including jamming SK's GPS systems at one point. They probably have a fully capable electronics warfare unit.

Its also quite possible that China supplies the technology/know how to conduct such attacks and uses NK as a proxy to test systems as SK military procedures are somewhat related to the United States.

Also, South Korea has REALLY bad security. For example, if you want to use some form of online banking you must use an ActiveX control with IE.

<comment><USER14> "Also, South Korea has REALLY bad security. For example, if you want to use some form of online banking you must use an ActiveX control with IE."

I've heard about that, and that it's a major impediment to the adoption of new browsers, but I'm wondering how that gels with the (uncomfortable/awkward?) zeitgeist of Samsung.

I was under the impression that Japan went 'mobile first' years ago and their phones have been their touchpoint (no pun intended) to the internet from before the iPhone launched and that desktop PCs weren't a big thing.

Are SK residents using their Life Companions* tethered to a PC to do their day-to-day banking on a PC? Akin to iTunes?

*<http://www.samsung.com/global/microsite/galaxys4/>

<comment><USER15> We need to use IE for most banking/online shopping sites. So the market share of Windows/IE in Korea is higher than other parts of the world.

Most people have Windows/IE installed together with their preferred OS/browser, myself included.

For mobile banking the situation's a little bit better but it is cumbersome nonetheless.

I think the payment system in S. Korea has a lot of potential for disruption, but the current regulatory laws force the businesses to use ActiveX.

<comment><USER16> _...the current regulatory laws force the businesses to use ActiveX._

Wow. Here I was thinking CFAA was a bad law.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> A great example of how fixing security weaknesses is more important than trying to outlaw their exploitation.

</comment><comment><USER18> "Cyberattack" is also known as "you left the door open and someone walked in".

</comment><comment><USER19> Sometime ago there was news "North Korea under cyber attach" or sth like that. Now this.

So, this is an "attack" or "counter-attack"? Anyway, am I the only who who is smelling that that sense of retaliation was routed from some other country as one can actually doubt North Korea's cyber prowess.

South Korean Internet is micro-monitored like many tyrannies(though not on the same scale" so I guess the attack was sophisticated and of some calibre.</comment>


Google has released a list of 1000 most-visited sites on the web - <AUTHOR> http://webgeekph.com/news/google-has-released-a-list-of-1000-most-visited-sites-on-the-web/ <comment><USER3> #985: dropbox.com — myth & folklore

Congratulations on achieving mythical status!

<comment><USER4> Another good one: #229: comcast.net - online games

<comment><USER5> #824 stackoverflow.com - <USER2>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Interesting that Twitter places above Amazon.com, and Bit.ly places above NYTimes.com.

Also interesting that Scribd is the top-ranked YC startup, significantly ahead of justin.TV (which was the second-ranked that I knew of), and I couldn't even find Reddit, Digg, or Hacker News on the list. Though the data set is likely biased: geeks are far less likely to have Google Toolbar installed than the general population, and less likely to opt-in to allowing data to be collected if they have it.

<comment><USER7> Isn't it based on the ads they serve?

Was also posted two days ago: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1386244>

<comment><USER6> The article said it was based on Toolbar logs, opt-in Google Analytics data, and a few miscellaneous sources like customer panels. I'd imagine that most of the big sites don't use Google Analytics (or don't opt-in to letting Google use that data if they do), so I'm guessing that Toolbar logs are the primary sources for most of these.

<comment><USER7> Didn't bother reading this one. Looked at the one from two days ago, saw double click ad planner and made assumption. You know what they say about assumptions.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> They should have titled it the 1000 most-visited sites except for porn.

<comment><USER4> Apparently #135 (game2.com.cn which is in fact a gaming site by the looks of it) is porn.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> As a csv file <http://dl.dropbox.com/u/481380/top1000.csv>

</comment><comment><USER10> I always notice microsoft.com on these lists and don't understand how it gets so much traffic. What am I missing?

<comment><USER11> Random thought: default IE home page.

<comment><USER12> Isn't that msn.com?

<comment><USER11> I thought it went to Microsoft.com/go?fwlink= etc. And them pushed you to wherever (no idea if that counts, but if it did it could explain it)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> it's kinda sad that you only need to go to #15 to hit below 100mm visitors/month number. You'd think by now, there'd be hundreds of sites with those numbers

also would be nice to see a top 1000 for domain names. i.e. combine all ebay.com/ebay.co.uk/ebay.co.jp etc.

</comment><comment><USER14> Distribution of their web servers: [http://lazyant.com/post/642248858/web- servers-of-the-most-vi...](http://lazyant.com/post/642248858/web-servers-of- the-most-visited-sites-in-the-internet)

</comment><comment><USER15> Anyone else find it creepy that they've removed all of their own websites (Google, YouTube, Gmail), but stil feel it's fair to publish this data about everyone else (including their competitors)? "Do No Evil". Hmm.

<comment><USER16> Maybe they thought it was unfair to list their own sites.

<comment><USER15> Unfair how? Facebook gets more traffic than YouTube. Why not let the public make up their mind? Or publish two versions? Or somehow otherwise make data available about THEIR sites that they've made available about everyone elses?

Seems like a slightly pointless list otherwise... "Here are the top sites in the world!... except for the ones we've taken out."

<comment><USER17> Imagine, just for a moment, what would happen if the did release their data.

People would criticize their decision either way …

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Direct link, skipping the blog: <http://www.google.com/adplanner/static/top1000/>

</comment><comment><USER19> there's something a little strange about this list... based on our google analytics numbers -- and the listed monthly unique visitors -- we'd be ~125, yet we aren't even featured on the top 1,000.

something tells me that it isn't very accurate.

<comment><USER20> Remember that this list is how many people _click google search results to get to the site_

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I didn't even no rapidshare was a real site. Any HNers use that? Occasionally my software shows up there on Google Alerts but I thought the site was bogus.

<comment><USER22> It's the largest file uploading service on the planet.</comment></comment>


APL Since 1978 [pdf] - <AUTHOR> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3386319 <comment><USER2> This is part of the open-access Proceedings of the ACM on Programming Languages, so it would be available anyway; but just a reminder that the entire ACM DL is available free to download until June 30: [https://www.acm.org/articles/bulletins/2020/march/dl- access-...](https://www.acm.org/articles/bulletins/2020/march/dl-access- during-covid-19) .

Incidentally, the issue from which this comes is called "No. HOPL": [https://dl.acm.org/toc/pacmpl/2020/4/HOPL](https://dl.acm.org/toc/pacmpl/2020/4/HOPL). I'm not sure if it's in place of, or in addition to, HOPL IV which was postponed: [https://hopl4.sigplan.org](https://hopl4.sigplan.org) .

</comment><comment><USER3> It is interesting to speculate about how a technology affected the zeitgeist, and directly or indirectly influenced subsequent work. My first programming language was APL, and it profoundly influenced how I think about programming. Lately I have been using numpy, and it feels awfully familiar to me! The authors of numpy acknowledge the influence of the APL/J school of thought on numpy. Have other people noticed the deep similarities between numpy and APL? (I will admit, words attributed to C.A.R. Hoare about Algol 60 have come to mind frequently: "Here is a language so far ahead of its time, that it was not only an improvement on its predecessors, but also on nearly all its successors.")

<comment><USER4> Have you seen matlab/octave? It appeared in 1984, quite a bit earlier than numpy, and is atill widely used today, introducing a large number of people to the wonders of array programming.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Shakti, with roots in apl, seems to embody the latest cutting edge concepts

<comment><USER6> That remains unclear. Similar to q/k4/kdb, it's optimized for fin-tech database work; that is, operations on very long columns. Apl (esp. dyalog) and j have proper multidimensional arrays, which means that e.g. matrix ops are practical/easier. They also have better tacit programming support.

<comment><USER7> What's the difference between nested lists and full multidimensional array support? It's not like q is bad at multiplying matrices.

<comment><USER8> For a multidimensional array: a matrix will be in stored single vector with metadata showing dimension. The presentation of the matrix (view) will then not matter on the data contained therein.

For q, they are stored as lists of lists, which can mean that their memory is not contiguous. Some algorithms can slow down significantly as a result (eg dense), others might speed up (eg sparse)

However, there are libs in q such as qml which interface with LAPACK and are doing memory mapping so it is not entirely q, just an interface to a C implementation

[http://althenia.net/qml](http://althenia.net/qml)

<comment><USER6> I had not seen qml. I must say, an array language interface to another language's math library is one of the funniest things I've ever seen.

<comment><USER9> J has lapack bindings also; you pretty much can't beat lapack for raw matrix math speed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here's a recent publication from Morten Kromberg and Roger Hui.

</comment><comment><USER10> Downloading PDF from ACM requires cookies.

Downloading PDF from Archive.org does not require cookies.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20200612214124if_/https://dl.acm...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200612214124if_/https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/3386319)

</comment><comment><USER11> It is interesting to see what could have been programming. I guess terminal monitors killed APL?

<comment><USER12> More like Excel killed APL. APL was mainly used by "domain experts", i.e., people who were not software engineers. According to Dyalog's YouTube videos, APL is still there for these people who started doing spreadsheets way before anything like Excel was available.

<comment><USER6> And now they've come full circle - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEG9pFNYBCI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEG9pFNYBCI)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Is it just me? I hate the ACM website. Ugly and difficult to use.</comment>


Why was there a font just for drawing symbols on buttons? - <AUTHOR> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2012/01/16/10256947.aspx <comment> angry-hacker Same with "Marlett" font which is basically user interface icons that are used in the menus and windows to scale the user interface.</comment>