How Bin Laden Sent and Received Email - <AUTHOR> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden

<comment><AUTHOR> Only slighty more roundabout than RMS's system for browsing the web.

</comment><comment><USER2> tl; dr: Write email. Copy to USB. Give it to courier who takes it to a distant internet cafe and sends it out. Incoming email is copied into the same USB and delivered back.

<comment><USER3> That was so anti-climactic. I was expecting something a bit more sophisticated after all the hype at the beginning of the article. ROT13 at least...

<comment><USER4> ROT13 is easily reversible. It looks like he used 2ROT13. <http://www.mobikom.at/2rot13.pdf>

<comment><USER3> I was kidding about ROT13. I would have expected at least AES-256 hidden via steganography inside photos or sound files..

<comment><USER4> I knew you were joking; just get reminded of that paper when I see ROT13 mentioned.

<comment><USER3> Sorry, I misread your comment. Good one :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This flags up all sorts of wrong. A counter terrorism official demands anonymity to tell us some very mundane facts:

1) Bin Laden sent e-mail. 2) He sent it via a very simple if slow method. 3) The US has these e-mails including the receiving address.

Why would they publish this tipping off their targets? Why does the official require anonymity?

A nasty thought does occur which is that this makes an excellent reason for governments to insist that ISPs and email providers hold all emails indefinitely for future investigations.

<comment><USER6> I would think the targets got tipped off when news of the Bin Laden raid was announced.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The hype-to-content of this article is ridiculous.

 _It was a slow, toilsome process. And it was so meticulous that even veteran intelligence officials have marveled at bin Laden's ability to maintain it for so long._

Really? _Really?_ It's still more efficient than traditional post, and I'm guessing there wouldn't be this level of hullabaloo if that had been the mode of communication.

<comment><USER8> Also, the www became more or less mainstream in the mid 90s and mainly for college students and young professionals or tech workers in western countries. He went in full hiding in 2001 but was already hard to find since a couple of years and living in Afghanistan.

For how long did he really used email? The answer is probably anything from zero years to five. Like you said, looks to me that the system he was using was a faster and more efficient system than the classic pen and paper he used all his life.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> For all the cheering about Bin Laden's demise, its this trove of information that people really should be cheering about. It sounds like they basically got a full snapshot of the Al Quada organization at the time of the raid. Intelligence analysts right now must be the having the most thrilling yet most critically intense time of their careers.

</comment><comment><USER10> According to my girlfriend who grew up in Africa, this is normal behavior when you have to pay for internet by the minute.

<comment><USER11> What software is most popular for doing this? I wrote my own when I was in Venezuela, but I imagine there's some popular stuff already out there?

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I remember watching the movie "Traitor" a few years back and wondering if Al Qaida used something similar to what the fictional terrorists were using in that movie.

(From what I remember, they were merely writing messages and saving them as drafts. Then others would log on and read the drafts. No emails were sent.)

Interesting though how much he relied on couriers.

<comment><USER13> Lots of malware actually uses this to communicate with infected hosts now-a- days. You see it a lot in the backdoors used for more targeted attacks.

AFAIK, going wayyy back, this strategy was first talked about by Sophsec at an infosec conference in 2006. They made a library called libomg that would log into social networks and webmail to communicate with infected bots and they had various strategies for doing so. The most hilarious was the myspace module which automatically set up networks of teen girls who chatted in uh teen- speak, which were actually hidden commands for the other bots to log in and retrieve. It was awesome.

<comment><USER14>
        The most hilarious was the myspace module which
        automatically set up networks of teen girls
        who chatted in uh teen-speak

Makes sense - teen-speak barely means anything and it's frustrating as hell to read, so normal people usually turn away before starting to see suspicious patterns.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Surely the lamest thing I read today. I was expecting some elaborate multiple encryption and obfuscation scheme involving proxies and anonymisers in addition to sneaker net in and out of the hideout.

</comment><comment><USER16> It is absolutely amazing to me that terrorist organizations would not use encrypted email.

<comment><USER17> Hiding in plain sight has a lot of different meanings. Cryptography stands out a lot more than bickering among old men. Besides, which tools to trust? The PRC clearly distrusts many western crypto systems, why would AQ feel any differently?

<comment><USER18> Those are good points, but he could still have, at least, used something like TrueCrypt for his _archives_.

<comment><USER19> How do you know that CIA don't have a backdoor to TrueCrypt?

<comment><USER20> Who cares if the CIA has a backdoor? It's still better to encrypt his archives than using plaintext. The chance the CIA _might_ have a backdoor is lower than the chance the CIA might decipher plaintext.

Of course, you'd have to use a non-networked computer for this, in case Truecrypt phones home...

<comment><USER19> Well, the article didn't say that they were archived in plain text. For what we know, it may have been encrypted with TrueCrypt, and it may be readable by CIA.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I cannot help but think of the recent story about Knuth and his secretary, reading (and replying to) mail by proxy as well..

</comment><comment><USER22> This doesn't surprise me, having 100+ USB's lying around with content does.

<comment><USER23> Same here. That part makes me question if the information from that "counterterrorism official" is reliable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> There doesn't seem to be a mention of encryption anywhere. I'm surprised they didn't avail themselves of a little PGP. If a giant notorious terrorist organization isn't using public key cryptography, who is?

<comment><USER25> In the past, Al Qaeda operatives have expressed a belief that PGP is tainted/backdoored/etc by the US government, so they generally shun it.

It's probably better for attempting to elude the NSA, as well. Get lost in the mix, as opposed to having big large red flags in your messages.

<comment><USER26> Why not GPG? It's open source, unless there's some crazy obfuscation in the source code it would be pretty hard to hide a backdoor in plain sight.

<comment><USER27> One would hope terrorist organizations don't have technical expertise to code review PGP.

<comment><USER28> Yet several had the expertise to fly commercial airliners. A number of top Al Qaeda leaders went to college in the U.S. It wouldn't be implausible for some terrorists to take courses in computer science.

<comment><USER29> While I don't doubt Al Qaeda has some skilled technical folks, piloting a commercial airliner isn't much of a feat if you don't intend to land the thing.

<comment><USER30> Landing in good weather is not particularly difficult. What's difficult is handling error conditions: the landing gear won't go down, an engine has failed, some instruments are out or misbehaving. Landing the airliner, safely, under those conditions require critical thinking, good flying skills, and practice. If you are planning on only taking one flight, you don't need to be good at this stuff, because it's unlikely that you will encounter any problems on that particular flight.

(Lots of people have died because of inadequate training in these areas. Eastern Flight 401 is a good example: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401>. The crew was so busy debugging a faulty light bulb that they forgot to fly the plane. It crashed into a swamp.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I think strong crypto + several VPN providers would be as safe and easier to automate.

(This, BTW, is why I am generally against anti-piracy enforcement actions and warantless wiretapping. When you force normal people to use strong cryptography and VPN providers or mesh networks, the terrorists are much harder to pick out. They just look like kids downloading movies.)

</comment><comment><USER31> Doesn't this system still lead to a large trail of emails going back to Pakistan (assuming the courier didn't go all the way into Afghanistan to send each email). Presumably, some of the computers that were on the receiving end of those emails have been seized by US intelligence in various raids. The IP of the sender would be easy to trace for the CIA, and the content of the emails would have at least indicated that the sender was in a key decision- making position within the organization.

Without some other security steps, like VPNs or proxies, the US would have certainly been able to trace the country of origin of these communications.

</comment><comment><USER26> SMTP over sneakernet

</comment><comment><USER32> Pretty lo-tech solution but it worked for many years so why not. What's surprising is that they left behind so many usb flash drives; with them being so cheap why not buy hundreds of low capacity drives and destroying them after each dispatch.

<comment><USER33> Why should they destroyed them? I think they wanted to keep them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Why did they use USB sticks and not something that courier can chew/swallow, like MicroSD?

<comment><USER30> Why rely on digesting electronics when cryptography is just as secure?

<comment><USER34> Deniable.

Cryptography doesn't do you any good if there are guys with a car battery asking you very pointed questions, like "where did you get this encrypted disk"?

With MicroSD in your mouth, they wont even get the idea to question you.

<comment><USER30> We didn't exactly give bin Laden a lot of time to answer any questions. We found him and shot him. Encrypted documents would have remained safe after his death, but that MicroSD would be a goldmine of information that will compromise his other operatives.

<comment><USER34> I was addressing the transportation step of the message, not its long term storage. From OBL to net-cafe, the dude carrying it would be safer with a MicroSD, encrypted or otherwise.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> A simple SOCKS proxy would have saved him a lot of trouble.

<comment><USER36> In effect he was using a proxy, just one that he knew he could trust

<comment><USER37> or thought he could. Isn't that what ultimately took him down?

<comment><USER36> yes. but apparently he had a group of couriers, so we don't know if the couriers who were running the USB disks to internet café's were the same as the two brothers who owned the house

apparently he had a number of trusted couriers, and judging from what I have read on tracking these couriers down[1], it wouldn't surprise me if he had multiple levels of courier for his email

[1] apparently the couriers were so good at counter-surveillance that even when the CIA had tracked one of the brothers down to Pakistan, it took them two years to link them to the compound, since they both took exhaustive counter-intelligence measures to make sure they were not tracked. amazing story

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> this article doesn't even mention email!</comment>


Lessons Learned from Shenzhen I/O - <AUTHOR> https://probablydance.com/2016/11/07/lessons-learned-from-shenzhen-io/ <comment><AUTHOR> This is one of the best reviews I've ever read. Not only does it capture the essence of the game well, I'm not sure I would have enjoyed Shenzhen I/O as much as I do if I hadn't read the review first.

If I could only use one paragraph to describe Shenzhen I/O, I would use this quote:

 _It distills programming down to the fun parts, removing the inertia, self- inflicted complexity, overhead, uncertainty and drag of real programming. It's just about coming up with clever tiny algorithms and micro-optimizing the heck out of them._</comment>


Tell HN: I bought a pair of SuperFocus glasses and I am very happy - <AUTHOR>

I bought a pair of SuperFocus glasses (superfocus.com) and I am very happy. I am presbiotic and code all day.<p>I am seeing way better than I ever have. Their Customer Service and Sales answered every question I had in great detail and even explained all the technical aspects I wanted to know. <comment><USER2> A javascript alert when I try to close the browser window? Site has been moved from "maybe" to the trash.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I dont really care for a JS alert either.</comment></comment>


Toroidion 1MW Concept Car - <AUTHOR> http://www.toroidion.com

<comment><USER2> 1 MW ... that is Bugati Veyron class and a change ... I wonder what the battery pack is.</comment>


Photo of Mark Zuckerberg-Camera and Mic Covered with Tape - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/topherolson/status/745294977064828929 <comment><AUTHOR> Can't say this is "extremely paranoid" .Personally I care not much about someone snooping my conversation and I trust my webcam blinking light :) But I feel like someone at Mark's level should take every precaution possible</comment>


Werner Herzog: 'Film-making is always some sort of risk-taking' - <AUTHOR> https://www.ft.com/content/9979bfb8-b5fa-11ea-8ecb-0994e384dffe <comment><USER2> My single favorite scene from any Herzog related film:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWH_9VRWn8Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWH_9VRWn8Y)

Herzog inquires and videos insane penguins in Antarctica as they march on towards their doom.

<comment><USER3> This could be a documentary about my research career.

<comment><USER2> Everytime I read the words "but why?", I hear them in his voice over here.

There's something so absurd about tiny flapping, waddling penguins as an animal, and yet they seem relatable too as they go about their day everyday, including the insane penguins in question.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Running joke with the boss - we will do it only if you eat your shoe - [https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/1979-werner-herzog- at...](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/1979-werner-herzog-ate- his-770500)

<comment><USER5> On YouTube [https://youtu.be/RNNGzMK5e4c](https://youtu.be/RNNGzMK5e4c)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> If you enjoyed this interview, I recommend you check out the book _Werner Herzog: A Guide for the Perplexed_ ([https://www.amazon.com/Werner-Herzog- Perplexed-Conversations...](https://www.amazon.com/Werner-Herzog-Perplexed- Conversations-Cronin/dp/057133606X/)), which is essentially a 400-page interview transcript covering Herzog's autobiography and filmography. One of the most inspiring books I've ever read.

</comment><comment><USER7> One of the greatest documentalists of our time. A favorite quote that has a double meaning in this context:

 _Storyboards are the instruments of the cowards_

(For the record, I don't believe the above is true for iOS development :)

<comment><USER8> > Storyboards are the instruments of the cowards

It is Mr. Herzog's slightly pedantic tongue in cheek, semi-flamboyant, original way of saying that _his_ type of cinema doesn't require storyboards. That is fine, as long as no one misunderstands it for saying that he doesn't need a script to plan his shots and can rely solely on artistic brilliance and improvisation, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Of course, most documentaries and art films don't need a visual screenplay like a storyboard, because it wouldn't make sense to script the action besides the fact that there is little action in those films. It is kind of logical and has nothing to do with being particularly brave. Now, action movies require storyboards because otherwise, the director wouldn't know what to do and would blow the studio's budget and get fired. Not using a storyboard wouldn't make the director a coward, but it would be unprofessional.

In cinema and documentaries and even to do YouTube videos, you need a plan, an outline, or a script. Without a planning tool, you will blow up your budget and end up with a second rate product. A storyboard is a planning tool you need when your scene is complex and will require tight control of your budget. It is just a tool and doesn't impede your improvisation abilities or choices or make you afraid of anything. That's silly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This guy dragged a boat over a freaking mountain so he knows what he's talking about.

<comment><USER10> While I applaude and admire his effort, I am somewhat concerned with the result. Can anybody elaborate why his movies are considered great? (This is not a rhetorical question, I am curious what other see that I do not.)

<comment><USER11> They're considered great by the people who consider them great. Personally, I think he's insufferable. He was granted exclusive access to make a documentary about the Chauvet caves, and made a film mostly about himself. What a waste.

<comment><USER12> But I've loved this film. It was one of these rare 3D movies where the 3D made sense.

<comment><USER11> Hmm. I didn't have the benefit of 3D, I saw it on TV.

<comment><USER12> The atmosphere inside the cave was as real as you can imagine in 3D, in a cinema. You really feel inside the cave.

Another fantastic documentary to see in 3D, in a cinema, was "Pina".

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Aguirre was the film that inspired late Taiwanese-American director Edward Yang (one of my favourite directors) to become a filmmaker and ignited his love of film. He was reportedly working as an engineer in tech. Perhaps Herzog will inspire one of us here on HN to become director too.

</comment><comment><USER14> Unblocked: [http://archive.is/tiOAw](http://archive.is/tiOAw)

<comment><USER15> It looks like archive.is finally resolves correctly via Cloudflare DNS servers.

<comment><USER16> Wow, finally indeed. That's been a pain for the longest time. What was the holdup anyway?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> There was also a very good interview done with him (~1.5hrs) a while back [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eua5iPUKw6Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eua5iPUKw6Y)

<comment><USER18> Unfortunately this was the interview that diminished my opinion of him somewhat. He was obnoxiously self-absorbed and self-congratulatory throughout.

<comment><USER19> I see what you mean, but wow, his description of Klaus Kinski frothing at the mouth while shattering a wine glass by screaming at it (whether true or not) definitely makes me want to keep watching -- Herzog is unapologetically over the top, but he sure knows how to tell a story.

<comment><USER20> I mean, if there was someone who _could_ scream at a wine glass loud enough to make it shatter, Klaus Kinksi would be that person. He was, by all accounts, only of utility to humanity when chained to a stage. Even the director who made "Please Kill Mr. Kinski" after working with him said that he was great in front of a camera.

<comment><USER21> You just need to scream at the resonant frequency of the glass to make it shatter. You can teach yourself how to do it

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> The paywall is stopping me from learning Herzog appreciates the Fast and Furious franchise as much as I do.</comment>


Heroku CI Is Now Generally Available - <AUTHOR> https://blog.heroku.com/heroku-ci-now-available <comment><USER3> I would love to use Heroku -- its tooling is better than anything else I've used, and integrated CI makes it that much better.

However, I run a machine learning service which requires ~3GB of RAM, which means I have to pay--at minimum--$500/mo on Heroku to get a single "Performance L" dyno. Google charges me somewhere in the neighborhood of $35/mo. I'm OK paying a little more for Heroku's convenience, but not 15x.

To any Heroku PMs here, are there plans to allow for custom-sized dynos or additional tiers?

<comment><USER4> I wish they had some "race to the bottom" price option for small side projects, with free custom domain and letsencrypt support. Something to compete with the $5 VPSs (soon to be the $3 VPSs).

Right now I rent a large server to host multiple things because I don't like the limitations of their free tier. There's something very elegant about having all your "apps" isolated and with their own settings but the price must be just right. I really enjoyed using Heroku (for a client) because maintaining my own servers, even for hobby stuff, feels like such a waste of time.

<comment><USER5> yeah I would love to use Heroku Free/5USD/5€ with a 500k Rows PostgreSQL database and a simple app that is only for 24/7\. than it would be a no brainer to use heroku and letsencrypt.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> If only it weren't GitHub only. I've got a couple projects in Bitbucket that I'd like to use this with.

<comment><USER7> I'm curious, why not migrate?

edit: Sorry, I'm stupid.

<comment><USER8> For one, not everyone uses git and GitHub for everything. Some prefer Mercurial and Bitbucket.

<comment><USER9> Bitbucket doesn't prefer Mercurial. Bitbucket Server only supports git.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> We've been using Heroku CI on Kickass projects and we like it. Reliable, cheap and fairly easy to setup. However, still seems to be missing some basic functionality like notifications when the build breaks and stuff like that. Looking forward to continued evolution of the product and not having to rely on third party providers.

<comment><USER11> For what it's worth, looks like webhooks are going into private beta soon: [https://www.heroku.com/form/webhooks- beta](https://www.heroku.com/form/webhooks-beta)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> CI is powered by testpacks: [https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/testpack- api](https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/testpack-api) . A test command has always been a missing part of Heroku's buildpacks.

I love that testpacks are expected to output TAP, a protocol that more of the testing world should support. [http://testanything.org/](http://testanything.org/)

</comment><comment><USER13> We've been using this while it's in beta for a we app we are working on and it's been a blast. I had not had a ton of experience with CI/CD before this, but I can't imagine it being much easier. It's really helped our dev process and fits in with the workflow we were trying to accomplish.

<comment><USER14> That's excellent to hear. Thanks for the kudos!

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Congratulations to the team that shipped this! CI / CD is something I welcome to comoditize and turn into an integrated feature. If any Heroku team members are out there, please consider reducing the minimum price for encryption at rest for your Postgres database so I can use you for my startup.

<comment><USER16> All Postgres plans from Stanard-0 upwards are encrypted at rest. They only market it for Premiums but Standards are encrypted.

<comment><USER15> Wow, that's awesome! Thanks for the heads up.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I've been using CircleCI and my biggest frustration is the inability to switch to faster machines.

<comment><USER18> Circle 2.0 (in beta) has the ability to use faster machines (and is also just faster).

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'm not really sure why this is preferrable over CircleCI? Could someone explain? Especially since CirleCI is free for the first container. This costs $10, and I don't understand the additional benefits of $10 here.

<comment><USER20> If you use Heroku for production, using it for CI too means that a lot of the annoying configuration pieces involved in getting CI to match production exactly disappear.

In my opinion CircleCI's configuration UX is actually really poor—compared to what it could be, and what Heroku provides.

In CircleCI, you're configuring against a moving target installation of binaries, and whenever CircleCI decides to upgrade Postgres or Redis or whatever, your tests start failing and you don't know why. Then you have to try to figure out how they've configured the services, and what it will take to use Postgres 9.5.3 instead of 9.6.1—big hassle.

Then there's the little UX things—in CircleCI you can't read the config vars you've set previously from the interface, which means you have to go through the super tedious process running a new build, SSH'ing into it, and then reading them from there, just to remember what user your Postgres connection URI uses.

On top of that CircleCI's documentation is much worse than Heroku's, so re- learning how to do all the random configuration things you need to do each time is more difficult than it could be.

I think anything that reduces time spent messing with CI servers is a big plus, because that work is usually the most frustrating work there is. $10/mo is _nothing_ compared to wasting a day dealing with CI configuration every once in a while.

<comment><USER21> "the annoying configuration pieces involved in getting CI to match production"

This could be resolved with proper tooling. Depending on what you're doing, Docker, Terraform, Make, build scripts, etc can be used to make every environment as identical as possible.

"n CircleCI, you're configuring against a moving target installation of binaries, and whenever CircleCI decides to upgrade Postgres or Redis or whatever, your tests start failing and you don't know why."

This is a very fair concern and has been voiced in the past. CircleCI 2.0 does not have that issue anymore, as the other commenter pointed out.

"in CircleCI you can't read the config vars you've set previously from the interface"

This is common in webapps and is for security reasons. If the variable value isn't secret, such as the local DB URI, you can set it in `circle.yml` or `.circleci/config.yml` instead. Fully visible and now versioned.

"On top of that CircleCI's documentation is much worse than Heroku's"

This I take very personally as docs are important to me and I work on them constantly. Our docs are open-sourced on GitHub ([https://github.com/circleci/circleci- docs](https://github.com/circleci/circleci-docs)) if you'd like to help make them better. If you prefer a conversation, you can always reach out to me on CircleCI Discuss ([https://discuss.circleci.com/](https://discuss.circleci.com/)) or DM me on Twitter (@FelicianoTech). I would LOVE to improve docs.

Your ultimate point of spending less time with CI servers is 100% the goal for SaaS CI. If Heroku, CircleCI, Travis CI, or any others cause you to spend more time in the tool, then they're failing.

 _disclaimer: Developer Evangelist, CircleCI_

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Is there any particular reason that the CI system defaults to using Performance-M dyno type ($250/mo)? I know that it's prorated to the second, but it seems like overkill.

<comment><USER23> Because unlike small scale we traffic, test runs and hard and heavy, and there's benefit in getting results out asap. I find it very useful - <USER2> never pay for big dynos for my app at this scale, but $0.05 per month for super fast test results is pretty cool.

<comment><USER24> Not really $0.05 per month. There is a $10 flat charge on top for every pipeline you have.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> > Your tests run immediately, every time on dedicated Performance dynos.

Huge.

</comment><comment><USER26> Anyone knows if it works with GitHub Enterprise?

<comment><USER27> I'm sorry to say that no, Heroku CI does not support GitHub Enterprise.

<comment><USER26> Is this maybe planned?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I still can't understand why no one has create a "cheap" heroku.

Imho, given their pricing, there is a lot of room for competitors.

<comment><USER29> > I still can't understand why no one has create a "cheap" heroku.

AWS has tried several times, they'll eventually win this one though.

<comment><USER30> > AWS has tried several times

They have tried once, and it's called AWS Elastic Beanstalk.

<comment><USER31> Not sure. Beanstalk is a very clumsy product and lacks the Elegance of heroku.

<comment><USER32> Elastic Beanstalk's Multi-container environment can be a nice way to ease a project into containerization, but it seems like it doesn't get much love from AWS these days. You're still forced to set hard memory limits on containers even though ECS support soft limits.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Still no HTTP/2 support?</comment>


Ask YC: Let's start a Hacker News book club - <AUTHOR>

This is in response to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=406995
How about each week or month (I know we're all busy, so perhaps monthly is better), we all agree on a book to read and discuss? I am very busy for many parts of the year, and often don't have time to read leisurely even though I would very much like to. I imagine the idea of an HN book club would help in this regard, as I would be much more motivated to make time (like a co-founder motivates you to keep going!).
What do you guys say? If this post has enough upvotes (say 10), start discussing options for the first book, and whether weekly or monthly would work better.
EDIT: lallysingh below has made the following suggestion of topics. This seems like a very good fit judging by the posts on HN, as well as the comments already present.
1. High-level programming, probably functional-related.
2. Business/startup
3. Some quality-of-life stuff.
Perhaps newer releases (or exotic material) might be a good choice due to the presence of ideas not yet assimilated, discussed, or pondered by many of us.
EDIT2: Judging by the time concerns below, maybe it is wise to start with something short (say under 250 pages).
EDIT3: If we're going to go with fiction, this looks like a good list to pick from:
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/6.Best_Books_of_the_20th_Century
Personally, I've read almost none of these! <comment><USER2> Sounds silly to me, honestly. We don't have the same gaps in our knowledge and I don't have time (or interest) to read about the stuff that you're interested in that I'm not.

Book clubs seem to make more sense for fiction where the goal is entertainment or being more cultured or whatever. For non-fiction, my reading choices are much more pragmatic and I also don't mind just reading the parts of a book that are interesting to me. I don't fundamentally want to read more business or hacking books; I want to fill the gaps in my knowledge.

<comment><USER3> Business books are mostly trash, avoid them like the plague. Also non-fiction does not have to mean 'hacking' books, there's lots of good stuff out there that can fill gaps you never knew you had.

I usually take a note when Charlie Rose has authors on, or even Stephen Colbert (although I skipped the whole doom+gloom book style of the last two years)

<comment><USER2> Comments about things that are universally bad are universally bad, and should be avoided like the plague.

I've got some good business books around here. Most of the ones that are wretched are self-help books with a little business language sprinkled on top to cover the flavor.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Jeez, this sounds good, but if people here are like me then they already have about 5 books on their list that they want to read. I don't know how many would commit.

<comment><USER5> Not just on the list, but actually bought and stacked on your desk. Right next to the stack of 5 books you previously purchased to read.

<comment><USER6> Are you sure you aren't me?

<http://is.gd/d7G0>

<comment><USER7> Oh my god! That looks like the pile of books that is currently sitting underneath my desk!

<http://twitpic.com/uyw7>

I keep moving the pile around hoping a new location will give me the necessary kick in the guts to start reading, but I just keep adding to it.

<comment><USER8> I toss books out on their ear* if I don't get to them in 2 months or so. And it's the book's fault, not mine.

Prioritize. If the stack was smaller and less intimidating perhaps you'd read more of it than you are reading now.

* - They go to the library whether I purchased or borrowed them: <http://reddit.com/r/programming/info/6f0fz/comments/c03nzlo>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I would be more inclined to do this if the book is non-technical. When you commit to reading a technical book, you're committing yourself to more than just the time spent reading: you're committing yourself to the time spent applying and fully understanding what you read -- installing tools, tinkering with syntax, coding, and so on. I've got enough of that now.

With non-technical books (literature, history, quality-of-life), most of the time will be invested into actual reading, with a bit of pondering and maybe discussing. We can have a conversation right away, and there's still knowledge and insight to be gained.

Here are some non-technical books I'd like to read:

* How to Read a Book - <http://amazon.com/dp/0671212095>

* Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion - <http://amazon.com/dp/006124189X>

* Liar's Poker - <http://amazon.com/dp/0140143459>

* Growing a Business - <http://amazon.com/dp/0671671642>

<comment><USER10> " _When you commit to reading a technical book, you're committing yourself to more than just the time spent reading: ..._ "

I wish more hackers took that attitude towards science books. Can't really get much out of a pop-physics book without solving problems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'll tell you what would be awesome. A peer reviewed hacker reading list. But, only the really sacred books. For instance GEB or from the post that prompted this post, after reading that review, I can tell you it will absolutely be my next non-fiction book. I've been wanting to read through some old textbooks to try and pick up somewhere I might've left off, but always found them distancing. This looks like a great way to dive back into it.

<comment><USER12> I'm keen.

Someone want to hack it together? Maybe have a vote site built similar to YC/reddit where anyone can submit a book and discuss it, then the most popular submission every 2 weeks is chosen and we all read it?

Maybe decide 5 groups of books (business, technology, scifi, philosophy, etc) and choose 1 from each every month, to facilitate those who may want to use this book club for different reasons such as a learning facility (those who would gravitate to functional books on tech for example) or an escape from the every day (and read/discuss scifi or philosophy). I don't know, I havn't really thought this out. Maybe I'm over complicating it - I do that when I'm boozy!

Either way, it sounds like it could be a fun way to play with the Amazon API.

<comment><USER6> <http://www.goodreads.com/>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> _EDIT3: If we're going to go with fiction, this looks like a good list to pick from:

[http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/6.Best_Books_of_the_20th_...](http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/6.Best_Books_of_the_20th_Century)

Personally, I've read almost none of these!_

1) How can you have read none of these? Get started already! And don't wait for others to tell you which books to read!

2) That list is very suspect... I don't know how they compiled it, but it's a bit strange that it does contain some good books but then simultaneously allocates several positions to enjoyable but trashy books such as Harry Potter. Also gives several position to LotR (one is warranted, no more!), including one for the Silmarillion (wtf? I enjoyed it, but "best book of the 20th century"? no way!) Memoirs of a Geisha is also nice but hardly a thought leader. And it seems to be completely missing immortal masterpieces such as Narziss & Goldmund (Herman Hesse), Joseph and his Brothers (Thomas Mann), The Trial (Kafka), and many others.

An "OK" starting point, but not even the shadow of a definitive list.

</comment><comment><USER14> I have a suggestion for what to read: the posts that make up Joel Spolsky's Introduction to Best Software Writing I. [[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BestSoftwareWriting.h...](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BestSoftwareWriting.html)]

Most of the entries included in the book are solid articles, but most tend to merely skim the surface of the topic at hand, and I would love to go deeper and discuss the posts with the HN community.

They are brief enough to have something like one per week, and not distract too much from our day jobs (no more than HN itself, anyway). Also, I believe all the entries are still freely available at their original sites, so we don't have to worry about people not participating because they could not find the book.

As for downsides, I think a couple of the posts were submitted to HN before, but I think most, if not all, of them are worth revisiting. Also, it could be the case that many members have already read the book, but again, I think these posts are good enough to read again and discuss.

</comment><comment><USER15> Sounds like fun. I think monthly is better. If people suggest titles here, you could collect them and make a poll after a day or two.

</comment><comment><USER16> This should be a feature of hacker news, have a books link at the top menu where you can submit a book and a deadline, then people can commit to reading it, and then everybody can discuss. Upmod if you're committing, then the top few books will generally get a following and a good discussion going.

I guess you could do something like kill all books without more than 20 committed readers or something like that to eliminate the noise.

</comment><comment><USER17> Brewing Up a Business: Adventures in Entrepreneurship from the Founder of Dogfish Head Craft Brewery

[http://www.amazon.com/Brewing-Up-Business-Adventures- Entrepr...](http://www.amazon.com/Brewing-Up-Business-Adventures- Entrepreneurship/dp/0470050454/)

</comment><comment><USER18> TAOCP ,SICP, Lisp in small pieces, Probably the upcoming clojure book comes to stuff that should be consed on the list.

<comment><AUTHOR> TAOCP? Isn't that thing like 2,000 pages long now?

<comment><USER19> Yes, that's how he intends to weed out the undedicated.

<comment><USER18> That and MMIX.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Why isn't there a startup that just facilitates book clubs?

<comment><USER21> I'm going to launch BookClubiouslyr before anyone else can!

<comment><USER22> I think the trend now is adding a 'd' to the end of your startup name, so possibly bookclubd? or maybe just bookd?

<comment><USER23> bookclubd 1.0 ☆βeta

<comment><USER12> Hey! We can keep it in BETA for a few years! Nice idea.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I think that we should do all 4 categories and create a discussion thread the first of each month for each 4 categories so everyone can talk about what they want to talk about it.

I really like 2 and 3, personally.

Can I suggest our first book be "4 Hour Workweek"? I am reading it right now, very interesting book and concepts, I would love to get everyone's opinion on it.

</comment><comment><USER25> Well, Its good thing but it seems highly unlikely that this will work. But hey since when did that stop us from trying?

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Please upvote this suggestion if you are in favor.

To overcome the quarrel of choosing a new book each time, how about the highest-upvoted commenter from the previous book club meeting (i.e., someone we all agree is insightful) pick the next book (unless it is massively vetoed)? Or, perhaps provide a list of 5 recommended books, in case a single choice might be restricting the next book choice too tightly.

This both stimulates us to discuss the book insightfully (so we can pick the next book), and it resolves the dilemma of picking the next book!

</comment><comment><USER26> I'll briefly recommend "The Black Jacobins" by CLR James: A classical quasi- Marxist study of Toussaint L'Ouverture and the Haitian Revolution (the only widely successful slave revolt). Toussaint hacked the slave trade, colonial oppression, and the pernicious influence of the French, Spanish, English, and self-interested bourgeoisie mulattoes.

I'm about half-way through it right now. Good book.

</comment><comment><USER27> I'm always up for some more comments/discussion of the business books on Squeezed Books. Many of the books are ones I'd recommend and have read myself. Obviously I'd love it if people wanted to summarize new books, but I find it interesting to learn what people took away from the books already there, what sorts of applications they've found in their own businesses, and so on.

</comment><comment><USER28> Goodreads looks nice - but is rather unresponsive. There are many similar sites - but I have not yet found any that would make it easy to do the practical things - like finding people who would like to talk about a book (instead of just finding out who has read one), with added bonus if that was also location aware or finding bookclubs with most similar reading taste to mine.

</comment><comment><USER29> I track my book list on Bookhuddle; here is one list that might be of interest to others [http://www.bookhuddle.com/list/491/Recommended-Technical- and...](http://www.bookhuddle.com/list/491/Recommended-Technical-and- Entrepreneurship-Reading)

You can also form book clubs there and manage multiple group lists.

</comment><comment><USER30> 4\. Hacker Porn? [ascii only]

EDIT: _It only seemed appropriate given item number 3_

</comment><comment><USER31> all I can say is "yes!". I have a ton of programming books that I would love to re-read and discuss even (the art of the meta object protocol, let over lambda, on lisp etc.) but I would also be down with relevant math and fiction stuff.

<comment><USER19> The problem is that you'll maybe find two other people on this site who understand functional and meta-programming well enough to discuss the issues with you (and I'm not yet one of them).

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> I would definitely read, I'd rather stick with programming books however. Maybe books from this list? <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=348019>

</comment><comment><USER33> Since it's already set up how about <http://groups.google.com/group/real- world-haskell-book-club>

</comment><comment><USER34> It seems to me like you get much better bandwidth talking about books by meeting in person. Do internet book clubs work?

<comment><USER35> Skype, Ventrilo or something similar might work, depending on how many people meet at once.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> <http://personalmba.com/best-business-books/>

</comment><comment><USER37> I've been enjoying the Knuth series over the past year or so. Almost done now.

</comment><comment><USER38> What kind of book? Coding related? Business related? Harry Potter?

<comment><USER39> By the crowd here, some ideas:

1\. High-level programming, probably functional-related.

2\. Business/startup

3\. Some quality-of-life stuff.

Instead of institutionalizing the topics, we can just start with one good one, and then use suggestions/voting to make up a queue.

My bigger concern is timing. We're all pretty busy.

<comment><USER40> Seriously, if you don't have time to gain knowledge, you're probably wasting your time to begin with. Sounds like a fantastic idea to me, just get the prototype off the ground ASAP.

<comment><USER39> Sorry, I should've been more explicit. I'm mostly concerned about synchronization in terms of getting us all to read a book within the same time frame.

<comment><USER41> Given that there are so many, it seems like what will probably happen is that some will finish on time, and others will trickle in over the week. Keep the discussion open ^_^

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> May I suggest Peoplesoft? I think it is a worthwile read.

</comment><comment><USER43> Let me suggest "The Road Ahead" by Bill Gates. It was one of the first computer/software related books I ever read, and I think it is a classic in the field of software business kind of reads. It is accessible by anyone, even non-techie types, and its vision remains important for understanding where we are heading.

If anyone here might remember, in 90210, Steve Sanders' father gives this book to him as a graduation present. That in itself should be endorsement enough!</comment>


Ask HN: What are your favorite documentaries (and why)? - <AUTHOR> Even better if they're available on Amazon Prime or Netflix, too. <comment><USER2> [http://www.testcardcircle.org.uk/ttcfatoz.html](http://www.testcardcircle.org.uk/ttcfatoz.html)

These were 16 and 32mm film documentaries, commissioned by public and private enterprises in the 1960s and earlier. They were used by the BBC as 'trade' test transmission broadcasts during the commissioning of new broadcast services.

I watched almost all of them as a child. The story of plastic, and paint, and oil exploration are probably my favourites but the one about constructing Liverpool cathedral is pretty good and most people who watched these love 'to build a car' and 'Giuseppina'

You have to forgive the quality and age. They are artifacts of their time.

</comment><comment><USER3> I found the e2 Design series fantastic! I suppose the rest hold up to the same standard, but I haven't watched them.

[http://www.pbs.org/e2/](http://www.pbs.org/e2/)

The series is about social and environmental problems and how people have tried to tackle them. Both cinematography and and storytelling are excellent.

Pleasing and mind expanding.</comment>


Lack of exercise kills roughly as many as smoking, study says - <AUTHOR> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/07/lack-of-exercise-kills-roughly-as-many-as-smoking-study-says.html <comment><USER2> To combat the broscience prevalent in this thread on what a good exercise regime looks like, here are some reviews of exercise science on the relationship between different activities and health.

Cardio, vigorous is better [http://extremelongevity.net/2011/08/31/more- vigorous-exercis...](http://extremelongevity.net/2011/08/31/more-vigorous- exercise-associated-with-greater-longevity/)

Resistance training, how much is optimal? [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287373](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16287373)

How much total activity? [http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna...](http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0078777)

My take on all this: It seems like you want to be burning at least 1000 calories a week. There have been benefits reported at higher levels but the first 1k calories are guaranteed to get you a large proportion of the benefits. A routine of lifting twice a week and doing rigorous cardio 2-3 days a week puts you comfortably in the 1000-1500 calories burned range.

To the people who are saying that the normal activity of everyday life is adequate, you are fooling yourself because you don't want to have to make changes. It's fine if you want to do that but please don't spread FUD to others who don't know any better. You are hurting them.

<comment><USER3> 1000 calories a week seems a little bit low, but I'll admit that's just anecdotal - I'll do about 1kcal in a single 10 kilometre run.

In terms of fitness and general health, I notice a big difference if I'm getting regular (ie. most days of the week, allowing for 1 or 2 rest days) exercise of about half an hour, and at least one longer run/ride/whatever, out to about an hour or so. Take any excuse to do things the hard way when you're exercising - push up hills, do sprints, to intervals etc, and you'll notice an amazing difference.

Only downside to all this exercise is that you _really_ need your 8 hours of sleep a night to recover.

<comment><USER4> Closer to 600 to 750 calories for a 10k but I agree 1000 calories for a week is quite low.

<comment><USER3> Depends on weight.

<comment><USER4> It does indeed. And elevation traveled. And pace. Per the runner's world calculator they'd have to be 215 lbs. running 10 min per mile Which I suppose is possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Three years I don't miss a single week of workout: great that it creates long term benefits, but the _short_ term ones are already incredible: I'm better at parenting (I can carry my daughter for hours without any side effect for example), more able to focus at work, sleep quality is better, stress level much lower, and I look better. All this for 40 minutes a day 5 days per week. The best deal of my life. My routine is monday,wednesday,friday: 15 min cardio + bench press and squat (using a power cage, high volume for both exercise). Tuesday,thursday: 20 min high intensity interval training + chinups or pullups or over the head press depending on the day. Hint: the time I use for the exercises is small compared to the amount of sets I try to do per session because I took the extreme way of an home office that has an included gym. Pic: [http://antirez.com/misc/office.jpg](http://antirez.com/misc/office.jpg) Hint2: don't train to failure.

<comment><USER6> Regarding hint 2, it depends on what you're aiming for and also personal style. Training to failure while rotating muscle groups on a 3-day cycle is a superb way to see results and increase strength quickly. It is also a much more rewarding way to train for some of us than to avoid pushing it.

<comment><USER7> It also depends on the exercise. I will bench to failure any day if I have a spot, but I really don't like squat to failure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> What's enough exercise? I walk 20 minutes a day. That should be good enough or do I need to turn into a fitness nut and work on strengthening every muscle in my body, eating raw nuts or whatever and run 5 miles a day?

Like if the tradeoff for ultra-longevity is a shitty life of being obsessively active I think I'll pick a shorter life. If just a reasonable amount of exercise is ok and I don't have to work to look like I should be on the cover of a magazine, then I can do that.

Edit: reasonable question gets downvoted.

<comment><USER7> _Edit: reasonable question gets downvoted._

Your question was kind of emotionally charged, and it sounded like you were getting upset, which is what probably set off the downvotes.

 _if the tradeoff for ultra-longevity is a shitty life of being obsessively active I think I 'll pick a shorter life._

Being active doesn't have to suck. Sports are fun, man.

<comment><USER9> _Sports are fun, man._

No, winning is fun.

<comment><USER7> Winning is fun, but just playing sports is too, and I participate in plenty of sports that are not competitive, or competitive sports organized in a noncompetitive fashion (for example, constantly rotating or re-balancing teams)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Calling activity that raises your heart rate exercise makes it seem like something you have to go out of your way to do, like to join a gym or buy a machine.

It seems we benefit from having a healthy lifestyle -- like walking or biking to work, taking the stairs instead of the elevator, playing sports for fun, playing with our kids, running around with pets instead of just walking them, gardening, and so on. Our evolutionary ancestors probably lived like (though I can't cite sources) that and led our bodies to evolve to thrive best with that kind of activity.

So many people are big on paleo diets. I wonder when a paleo lifestyle will become popular.

<comment><USER11> It is fallacious to say 'just because our ancestors lived that way, it is good'. There is seldom sufficient evidence to back up such claims. Paleo diets [1] are not necessarily good. Nor are paleo-lifestyles [2]. Even several claims of paleo-enthusiasts like Christopher McDougal ('Born to Run') and Jared Diamond are disputed and contradicted by research [3].

A posteriori, there may be 'evolutionary'-type reasons for say, our body's over-eagerness to eat sugary stuff [4]. That doesn't mean that you can attribute everything to evolution without sufficient evidence.

The truth is what it is: lack of exercise and poor diet both contribute to increased risk of diseases. You can appeal to 'our ancestors' lifestyle' as reliably as you can appeal to say, the benefits of 'biblical diet'. Both are identically fallacious.

(As an aside, there are several comments on different posts in HN that wrongly apply evolutionary principles to everything from coding practices to behavioral traits [5]!)

[1] [http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-paleo-diet- hal...](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-paleo-diet-half-baked- how-hunter-gatherer-really-eat/)

[2] [http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/is-barefoot- style-r...](http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/is-barefoot-style- running-best-new-studies-cast-doubt/) [3][http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jan/09/history- society](http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/jan/09/history-society) [4][http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/opinion/evolutions- sweet-t...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/opinion/evolutions-sweet- tooth.html) [5][https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7050286](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7050286)

<comment><USER12> _It is fallacious to say 'just because our ancestors lived that way, it is good'._

Well, sure, if you're claiming it's some sort of lemma in a proof. Stuff our ancestors used to do is likely to be neutral or good for you, due to the way evolution works. The key is _likely_. I'd agree with you that it's a fallacy to hold "ancestors used to do it" as some kind of oracle.

 _You can appeal to 'our ancestors' lifestyle' as reliably as you can appeal to say, the benefits of 'biblical diet'. Both are identically fallacious._

There should be a name for the meta-fallacy of treating what should be a hazy rule of thumb as a mathematical identity.

<comment><USER13> _> Stuff our ancestors used to do is likely to be neutral or good for you, due to the way evolution works._

That's not true when it comes to age related diseases like cancer or heart disease. Through most of mankind's evolution these diseases did not affect our procreation rate at all.

Evolution optimizes for procreation not for longevity. It is very likely that an ample supply of burgers, fries and fat cheese (especially during winter) would have led to higher birth rates not lower ones.

It could well be that much of our ancestors' lifestyle is poison for anyone over 50.

<comment><USER14> > Evolution optimizes for procreation not for longevity.

Incorrect. Evolution optimises for propagation of genes. Procreation is one but not the element of that process.

Think about this way: if you are living by yourself in the forest and have octuplets, then you are very good at procreation; if you die immediately afterwards, then you are evolutionarily unfit despite your procreative abilities, because none of your young will survive to pass on their genes. For creatures like humans -- born with helpless young -- the person who has two children and lives long enough to ensure that they can pass on their own genes is more evolutionarily fit than the person who procreates like mad but lets all their children die.

In our evolutionary environment, post-procreative individuals played vital roles in ensuring the survival of the young: taking care of children while their parents were off hunting and gathering; preparing foodstuffs; passing on lore about which plants were dangerous to eat, etc. In this way, the presence of elders facilitated the propagation of genes -- right up to the point where the care and maintenance of said elders becomes such a drain on resources that it begins to diminish rather than enhance the survival and procreation prospects for the young. That's quite a long time, however, so generally speaking, genetic lines that produce long-lived healthy individuals who enhance the survival prospects of the young will be more successful than genetic lines which don't.

<comment><USER13> If most people have children in their 20s, there is very little evolutionary advantage to living beyond, say, 60. Until then, they will have passed on all their valuable wisdom.

<comment><USER15> I think the key point is that ability to help ensure survival and reproduction of great-grandchildren matters (evolutionarily) half as much as the same of grandchildren, which matters half as much as the same of children. Though in principle there's nothing preventing continued ability to have children in later years...

<comment><USER13> I understand the argument, I just don't believe that surviving elders were actually helpful for the procreation and survival of their offspring during most of evolution. Not beyond an age where cancer and heart disease start to play a role.

Older men can have children in principle, but older women can not. So those men would have to compete with younger men for the remaining fertile women. The birth rate of a woman would probably not change just because there are more old men available to her.

<comment><USER15> _" I understand the argument, I just don't believe that surviving elders were actually helpful for the procreation and survival of their offspring during most of evolution. Not beyond an age where cancer and heart disease start to play a role."_

I don't think I was disagreeing with you, there. My point was that regardless of how much benefit an ancestor can give to their descendants, _if_ you have declining fertility beyond some age the benefits of doing so attenuate with time.

<comment><USER13> I do agree with you that the benefit attenuates with time, but we seem to disagree a great deal about steepness of that attenuation. You're talking about great-grandchildren. I believe that in a hunter-gatherer society the benefit of having parents goes to zero within 20 years after reaching adulthood and there is never any benefit to having gandparents.

<comment><USER14> You severely underestimate the value of having grandparents. In traditional societies, children are raised by grandparents and great-grandparents at least as often as by parents.

The reason is simple: hunting and gathering is extraordinarily difficult when you've got a baby on your knee. If you reproduce at 20 and now you have to take care of a baby, then the people who are in _peak_ hunting-and-gathering condition are suddenly unable to find food. Solution: leave the baby with the 40-year-old grandparents, and go off to hunt/gather.

Problem is, a lot of 40-year-olds are still in pretty good hunting-and- gathering condition, and won't be maximising the group's survival by sitting on their duffs doing baby-guarding duty. The solution: leave the baby with the 60-year-old great-grandparents, and go off to hunt/gather.

This isn't conjectural: this is how traditional societies actually work.

Now, the 60-year-olds definitely _aren 't_ in particularly great hunting/gathering condition, so taking care of children is a good way they can contribute to group survival. The children can grow up and become self- sufficient under their tutelage. There's little evolutionary need another generation beyond them, so you'd expect mortality to increase rapidly after 60. Which of course is exactly what we see.

<comment><USER13> _> There's little evolutionary need another generation beyond them, so you'd expect mortality to increase rapidly after 60_

That's exactly my point. Hunter-gatherer diet didn't need to work very well against cancer, heart disease or Alzheimer's and hence we shouldn't expect it to promote what we consider longevity today.

But I think you're overestimating the value of grandparents for breast feeding toddlers. Population growth wasn't very rapid back then because most kids died at birth or very soon after. So there weren't actually that many kids around I think.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> It's always amazing how much hate exercise gets on the internet. The majority of the comments on here are - well this or that should count as exercise not actually having to go and do some specific "exercise" training.

As someone who did not used to like to exercise and now do I think it's just a whole wad of cognitive dissonance for people who largely are out of shape (by the way that /= fat) and don't want to feel like they should spend time doing specific body improving exercises.

<comment><USER17> it's the same mental rut as people stuck in a terrible dead-end job, or in abusive / shitty relationships. this is not a value judgment on what type of job/relationship is good; these people are suffering. some are highly paid, or have the outward appearances of a good relationship.

they have self-imposed a set of beliefs, a system of beliefs built up through unfortunate circumstances that have no bearing on wider reality, that limit their ability to improve their circumstances. it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

their mind will do all sorts of logical gymnastics to avoid admitting the truth or taking action. you can see it in this thread. people just make things up out of thin air, convinced of their truth. i was tempted to reply to a couple but then i saw your comment.

it's like living in the matrix or something. it's so hard to explain because smart people can fall for it too. to this day, i find myself slipping into these self-defeating thought cycles every once in a while. maybe it's some kind of stockholm syndrome.

<comment><USER18> Victim-blaming AND false consciousness! Great way of disclaiming any responsibility for helping anyone in that situation.

<comment><USER17> > disclaiming any responsibility

it's not my responsibility to offer to help strangers unsolicited. in fact, it's kind of rude.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I've never enjoyed exercise. As a young child I would feel horrible after physical exertion. For years I heard things like: grow up, grow a pair, get used to it, you just need to toughen up, and so on.

In my early teen years I ran long distance track but never felt well during or after a meet. I had to stop.

Fast forward to my late 30s and I get diagnosed with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (obstructive) [1]. It's genetic (I've been tested). At this point, even mild exercise over a period of time (a week or so) leads to congestive heart failure (CHF). I have little doubt I was suffering from lighter symptoms as far back as childhood.

There are some people who cannot exercise. I so want to do something to help ease stress. For me, however, exercise == stress. If I lifted weights two days a week and ran for three, I'd end up in the hospital. As it is, I can walk a few times a week for about 30 minutes.

There are zebras in the world. People should be careful about taking advice from discussion boards. See your doctor before starting any serious exercise program.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertrophic_cardiomyopathy)

</comment><comment><USER20> This is why I always jog with a cigarette.

<comment><USER21> No joke - One of my friends was amazed the day he was at another friend's house and noticed that she had one of those great-big ashtrays attached to her treadmill to allow walking and smoking at the same time...

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Note that the fact "Lack of exercise kills roughly as many as smoking" says almost nothing about the danger of smoking compared to lack of exercise, unless you happen to know the rates of each.

<comment><USER15> But it does say some about where we should be focusing our marginal effort in terms of encouraging/discouraging behaviors for optimal public health. How much of a difference we can _make_ in each is the other piece missing, but that would involve looking at specific proposed interventions.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> From 2012... Here's the referenced article from The Lancet

[http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67...](http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736\(12\)60898-8/abstract)

</comment><comment> vezzy-fnord _Half an hour of brisk walking five times a week would do the trick._

Good to know I'm satisfying the bare minimum for not dying.

<comment><USER24> That lines up pretty well with the recommendation of 7,000 steps per day:

[http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/tips-for- getting...](http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/tips-for-getting- exercise-into-your-life/)

Fitbit's default goal of 10,000 seems to work well, and I walk very fast everywhere as long as there's not ice on the ground.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> In this thread, a large majority falls to realize that diet has little to do with exercise. As in, no diet can fix your sedentary car commute desk job health problems.

The obsession with diet seems to be rooted in a desire to avoid exercise. I'd wish people would get a grip because the paleo and other nonsense is a breeding ground for the kind of blatant ignorance from which anti-vaccine and homeopathy hails.

</comment><comment><USER18> Oh great, now not exercising in bars is going to be banned :(

</comment><comment><USER26> I got a Fitbit in January. I log all of the food I eat in the app and it (roughly) calculates how many calories I'm burning through walking or running, plus the passively burnt calories. It's now clear to me why people not measuring tend not to be able to lose weight. They simply underestimate how much they need to exercise, and overestimate how much they can eat. It's an easy trap to fall into. I've had days where eating one thing too many would blow my calorie budget unless I went for a half hour walk to compensate for it.

</comment><comment><USER27> All I thought was, that's all? I would have expected lack of exercise killed many more.

</comment><comment><USER28> Another article to forward bosses with purchase orders for treadmill desks attached. :)

</comment><comment><USER29> Another aspect to exercise is the mental health aspect. I find that 60 minutes of cardiovascular activity clears my mind and I often come up with inspirations to a problem I am working on after working out. I think regular exercise helps maintain mental acuity and balance.

<comment><USER15> My understanding is that this is pretty well supported by studies, too - regular exercise leads to improved mental function.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I don't exercise as I yet have to see data showing me that exercise will increase lifespan by longer than the time invested doing it. Add the opportunity cost of the lost time to the picture as well. Same with sleep. A couple of hours less sleep is a pretty significant increase in real and meaningful lifespan. Will sleeping 8 hours increase your lifespan by a bigger percentage? No, not really. What I definitely think is stupid is overeating and then running to the gym to "burn" the excess calories. First, exercise makes you hungry. Second, are you aware of the vomitories in the Roman Empire - this isn't much different. Every expert will tell you that nutrition is more important than exercise. To me, studies about exercise are low quality as people who work out usually watch what they eat as well. Also, it could be the lower abdominal circumference of those who work out, which is a good health predictor. Anyway, I think walking 20-30 mins a day and having sex is what is natural to us. Anything else leads to tear and wear (especially, cartilage), increased metabolism, and aerobic exercise is a significant source of reactive oxygen species, so, you really need to load up on antioxidants _before_ such workout. The slower your metabolism is, the longer you will potentially live (extend odds of getting cancer, hitting the Hayflick limit later, etc.). Intermittent fasting as a caloric restriction regimen seems to be the best option of life extension, which means, two meals a day, even better with one (Warrior Diet). Not having to worry about snacks and eating so often also extends your meaningful lifespan. I'm sure some gym nazis will downvote me, but whatever - I've invested enough time researching different alternatives of having longer and happier life and I know what's best. The only thing I know I should be doing better is stretching. I highly recommend The Longevity Project book - it debunks a lot of myths. Good Calories, Bad Calories is also great although it has a lot of enemies especially in the face of vegetarians and vegans. I believe in it's main point as I've increased my caloric intake by hundreds of calories a day, but my weight has actually decreased. I'm not saying all that Taubes says is right, but if there's one thing I got from the book is the realization that human metabolism is oversimplified, it really is not a simple arithmetic formula with just addition and subtraction. Hormones, for example, are very important, and you can talk to people with thyroid disease (hypo or hyper function) to hear how eating less can make you gain weight and how eating more can still make you lose weight. Due to environmental toxins (including those in foods such as endocrine disruptors, antibiotics, etc.), things are getting more and more complicated. Add the fact that our gut microbiota is totally out of whack and things get ugly.

<comment><USER31> > I don't exercise as I yet have to see data showing me that exercise will > increase lifespan by longer than the time invested doing it. Add the > opportunity cost of the lost time to the picture as well

That's double counting. If exercise time gets you the same increased lifespan as time invested doing it, then the "time" factor cancels. So there is no opportunity cost -- you get more life for "spending" life.

> Second, are you aware of the vomitories in the Roman Empire

Not a real thing, other than the architectural term. Nothing to do with regurgitation. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitorium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomitorium)

While your personal mileage may vary, I find my quality of life immensely increased with regular exercise.

Science supports it -- exercise helps mood, life quality of insomniacs, increase happiness, reduce anxiety, and many other positive qualities. ([http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/exercise- happiness.htm](http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/exercise-happiness.htm) has links to all these studies.)

I encourage you to do as you wish with your life. I, however, will continue to put my time in. Preferably in high intensity cardio exercise 2-3x/wk, and 1-2 strength training sessions per week.

FWIW, the "life extension foundation" seems to support exercise. [http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag96/feb96-fitness.htm](http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag96/feb96-fitness.htm)

<comment><USER30> To me exercise in the gym is wasted time, not productive time, and that's why my logic isn't flawed. If I have a better use of my time, but hit the gym for some expected benefit, then it's not the best use of my time. Some people may need exercise to feel good while others (like me), don't. If you rely on exercise for your mood (thanks to the endorphins release), then you're becoming dependent on it and it becomes an addiction. I personally fall asleep in less than 2 minutes. I forgot to mention that team sports is a different thing. I always enjoy playing soccer with my friends and children.

Regarding "exercise", if you ask Dr. Weil, walking 20-30 minutes or doing garden work is the best exercise - that's what the Okinawans or the Sardinians do. I think a walk is good enough to stabilize your blood sugar after a meal (even just 10 minutes of walk do miracles) and allow you lymph to flow.

Exercise also increases IGF-1, which is without much doubt negative for longevity: [http://blog.wellnessfx.com/2013/09/04/igf-1-trade- performanc...](http://blog.wellnessfx.com/2013/09/04/igf-1-trade-performance- vs-longevity/)

Also, higher muscle mass means increased basal metabolic rate, which affects the lifespan potential negatively.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Progress & a victory for the anit-smoking campaigns, in a sense. Just think how many people smoking was killing before it was demonized.

</comment><comment><USER32> I find these kind of news worrying, but for the wrong reasons.

This is more about pushing an agenda, maybe increasing health insurance premiums and blaming people.

Rate of death is still 100% for humans, regardless of what you do.

Sure, maybe it's healthier to work standing or I don't know, but the end result is the same.

Not to mention health problems caused by exercise itself. Or even worse, weekend exercisers that go and overexert themselves then causing a heart attack.

<comment><USER33> Cognitive dissonance?

>Not to mention health problems caused by exercise itself. Or even worse, weekend exercisers that go and overexert themselves then causing a heart attack.

Well, it's extremely rare that people get heart attack because of excercise. It happens, but it's really rare. It's so rare that we can safely say: excercise is good for your health, and not having any excercise is bad, period. You can screw it up by not doing it right, however, overdoing it is almost impossible -- given you do it right. Running too much, for example, is almost impossible, if you get over the initial period of losing excess weight, and you drink and eat enough, etc.

<comment><USER34> It's not very common, but it also isn't nearly as rare as you're making it sound. I'll look for the study, but IIRC, if you're over 50, and you vigorously exercise more than 2 hours a week, your chance of a heart attack is actually greater than if you vigorously exercise only a couple minutes a week. And I think it's around 1 in 15k. Which although not common, is far from almost impossible.

<comment><USER35> Did you find a link to that study? 2 hours of vigorous exercise a week can still represent a vary sedentary lifestyle.

I would in no way be surprised that people who are over 50, overweight, and start a strenuous exercise program as if they where still in there 20's had a significant risk of heart attack. On the other had if there only looking at healthy people with long term exercise programs that's another issue entirely.

<comment><USER36> [http://running.competitor.com/2012/06/news/how-much- running-...](http://running.competitor.com/2012/06/news/how-much-running-is- bad-for-your-heart_54331)

"Repeated extreme exercise or long-distance racing can cause a buildup of scar tissue on the heart, which can lead to the development of patchy myocardial fibrosis in up to 12% of marathon runners. The effects of "chronic exercise" can also include premature aging of the heart, stiffening of the heart muscles, and an increase in arrhythmias and atrial fibrillation."

"A 15-year observational study of 52,000 adults found that the highest degree of survival and health was found from running less than 20 miles per week, in runs of 30 to 45 minutes over three or four days, at about an 8:30 to 10:00 pace. The benefits decrease at amounts greater than that."

"Originally, it appeared the race-related damage was less severe in people who trained over 45 miles per week, but O'Keefe says that doesn't prove to always be true."

As with most things, it appears that exercise is neither a panacea nor an unqualified good thing, but no doubt under-exercise is more prevalent than over-exercise...

<comment><USER37> That's really quite extreme over-exercise, though. If you don't train for a marathon, but rather go jogging a few times a week, you'll be fine.

<comment><USER38> I'm 54. I walk 8-10 miles every morning and lift weights 2 times a week for an hour. I use to have high blood pressure and the only (I tried them all) drug that worked for me was causing abnormal gum growth. So getting off the drug was my primary motivation. I'm 6'2" and now a lean 180 pounds.

<comment><USER37> That's awesome. I'm not saying that older people can't do that much exercise, just pointing out that it's worth starting slow. I entirely agree with you that exercise is good, and that's why I left the reply I did: I was arguing that exercise is almost always a good recommendation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Cue those mythical 80 hour a week workers...

</comment><comment><USER40> Well, smoking or not. You will die anyway.

</comment><comment><USER41> Missing (2012) tag

</comment><comment><USER42> I call BS.

My understanding is exercise is not that healthy from a physical stand point. (Mental health perhaps)

Continuous long term light strain is what I thought was beneficial. i.e. stand up desk, gardening etc

This PRed article seems to just be taking exercise as a given the extrapolating from there rather than looking at the issue itself.</comment>


What software stack/practices does Boeing use for the Starliner? - <AUTHOR> Theres been a number of recent news articles about yet-another-software glitch in the recent Boeing Starliner test.<p>None of them actually talk about the actual software stack or development practices used on that project. Is it all embedded C? Or Ada? Is it being contracted out or done by an internal team? <comment><USER2> Most likely Ada. They don't talk about it because it's proprietary.

<comment><AUTHOR> Is it all embedded processors?

<comment><USER2> Most likely Honeywell SBCs like the following based on IBM PowerPC 750X. Source: [https://qz.com/317406/why-nasas-newest-space-shuttle- uses-a-...](https://qz.com/317406/why-nasas-newest-space-shuttle-uses-a- computer-chip-from-2002/)</comment></comment></comment>


The Sad State of Fact-Checking - <AUTHOR> http://austenallred.com/the-sad-state-of-fact-checking/

<comment><USER2> That's why we have [http://www.emergent.info/](http://www.emergent.info/)</comment>


Ask HN: If you designed a co-working hub from scratch, what are the must-have? - <AUTHOR>

I'm currently working in combination with a local authority in the south of England to build a coworking hub for entrepreneurs and start-ups. We're at a very early stage and all ideas are currently on the table - from hotdesks, meeting space, dedicated 'pod'-style office areas, various office support functions, back office functions (such as accounting, payroll etc.), 'innovation spaces' and workshops to foster ideas.<p>I just wondered if you were designing a co-working area from scratch - what would be must haves and nice to haves? What would convince you to relocate? <comment><USER2> must: fast internet, car parking, private meeting rooms, kitchen, available manager to resolve issues promptly, effective security, location not far from train and motorway. Proximity to potential customers (need to know who are your likely tenants and survey them for customer locations)

nice: decent/onsite nearby cafe / lunch food, space for mechanical workshop prototyping</comment>


Kill Your Dependencies - <AUTHOR> http://www.mikeperham.com/2016/02/09/kill-your-dependencies/ <comment><USER2> > Can I implement the required minimial functionality myself? Own it.

And now _you_ are responsible for tracking down and fixing every single bug and security weakness in it. You and every other developer needing the functionality.

Dependencies are used for a reason. Usually.

<comment><USER3> Exactly.

If you can't handle tracking external dependencies that come with battle tested code and relatively well-defined APIs. What makes you think you can do better by recreating all the same functionality as internal dependencies. Unless you have a glut of excess code monkeys to throw at solving problems that already have existing solutions, eliminating dependencies for the sake of reducing complexity is a lost cause.

OTOH, if your goal is to reduce dependency duplication. The problem isn't the code, it's the poor quality package manager you're using. Lately, package managers are switching to flat dependency structures because they solve this exact issue.

If you're worried about managing the uncertainty that comes with dependency updates, lock in the version numbers and shrinkwrap the dependencies.</comment></comment>


YC: How I Earned Karma While I Slept - <AUTHOR>

I posted one mundane remark yesterday and woke up to see that my Karma has risen 12 points!
While I slept!  Wow!
The secret: get others to debate under your small post.
I'm working on better techniques.
My goal: 1 Karma point per word.
Here's the actual thread:
7 points by edw519 16 hours ago | link
  <A rather mundane, but potentially controversial remark.>
5 points by curi 16 hours ago | link
  I don't agree; blah blah blah

  3 points by dfranke 16 hours ago | link
   I don't agree with you; blah blah blah

   4 points by curi 15 hours ago | link
    Obviously you haven't read:
      http://www.amazon.com/BlahBlahBlah...

    4 points by dfranke 15 hours ago | link
     Not so: blah blah blah

     5 points by curi 15 hours ago | link
      Oh really? Blah Blah Blah

      4 points by lg 10 hours ago | link
       To both of you: blah blah blah

       1 point by curi 10 hours ago | link
        I insist that blah blah blah

        4 points by yters 10 hours ago | link
         Counterpoint: blah blah blah

         3 points by curi 9 hours ago | link
          You should read this: http://www.curi.us/blahblahblah
          Or this: http://www.curi.us/blahblahblah

          4 points by yters 9 hours ago | link
           You forgot blah blah blah

           1 point by curi 6 hours ago | link
            If it's any help: more blah blah blah.

            3 points by yters 6 hours ago | link
             I should rephrase it: blah blah double blah.

             1 point by curi 5 hours ago | link
              You still don't understand.

              Read this: http://www.amazon.com/MoreBlah

              2 points by yters 4 hours ago | link
               Yeah go ahead.
 (edw519's note:  In all fairness, this is the only response that I included verbatim.
Because it's the only one I read.)

                1 point by curi 3 hours ago | link
                 So some good goals, in my opinion:

                 Long term: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

                 Medium term: blah blah blah

                 Short term: blah

                 2 points by thaumaturgy 3 hours ago | link

                  > you will be contradicting yourself, because blah blah blah :-)

                  Also...different blah blah blah

                  1 point by curi 2 hours ago | link
                   On subjectivity, I think that blah blah blah

                   1 point by thaumaturgy 2 hours ago | link
                    The point is even more blah blah blah

                    2 points by lg 6 hours ago | link
                     Clarifying blah blah blah

                     1 point by curi 6 hours ago | link
                      I think we are talking past each other.

                      You are talking about bluh bluh bluh

                      I am talking about blah blah blah
 <comment><USER2> I thought the purpose of HN was to judge the quality of applicants to YC, not by your karma score but by sampling the quality of actual posts.

So although your karma is increasing, if you're planning on applying, it doesn't give you much of an edge.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just speculating.

+1 for hacking the karma system.

<comment><USER3> It's not _the_ purpose, just an additional benefit. The main reason we made News.YC was that we wanted a good news site for our own use.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> In the time it took you to write that you could have found and submitted several things that improved the quality of the community... When people start trying to game the system it detracts from what news.yc is supposed to be.

<comment><AUTHOR> Fair enough. You can look at my profile to see that I DO submit often. Problem is, I never know what others will find interesting.

<comment><USER4> don't worry about it, I just upmodded you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Who cares? Seriously, everyone needs to get over the whole obsession with karma? It's really stupid.

</comment><comment><USER6> isn't that what they call trolling? Granted, you're probably being sarcastic.

<comment><AUTHOR> Probably?!?

Yikes, either lots of people here have no sense of humor, or I've failed to convey the level of sarcasm. In all fairness, I take all the blame. From now on, I will put <sarcasm> and </sarcasm> tags on posts like these. I guess it's had to tell if you don't know me and can't see or hear me.

I really don't care about karma, but I find it fascinating because I have no idea how it's calculated. Sometimes I think if I posted the cure for cancer, I'd earn 1 point, but if I make one smarta$$ remark, I'd earn 48 points (actually happened once, I don't know why).

I have no plans to apply to ycombinator, but who knows, that can always change; this is such a great group, you'd be a fool to not have it on your "options list".

I do know that I have found a home. It's hard to describe, but I get something here that I have found nowhere else. I participate frequently. That, probably more than anything else, explains my karma score.

As far as this post is concerned, I just found it amusing that responses to my original post went on and on all night. Sorry if I failed to convey my sense of amusement.

(Also, to the guys who were "sparring" in the OP, certainly no harm intended. Just a suggestion: keep your posts short enough for those of us who only take 5 minute breaks. Oops, time's up. Back to work.)

<comment><USER7> Clarifying: hey mine were pretty short bla bla bla

<comment><AUTHOR> Easy to do when you omit the "h" from blah

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Blah blah blah.

</comment><comment><USER9> the thread, for reference: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117128>

</comment><comment><USER10> i disagree with this technique

<comment><USER11> my posting technique is unstoppable?</comment></comment>


Choose wars based on strengths & battled based on weaknesses - <AUTHOR> http://blog.thestartuptoolkit.com/blog/2011/11/choose-wars-based-on-strengths-battles-based-on-weaknesses/ <comment><USER2> It's slightly unclear whether the OP is talking about risk assessment and reducing unknown unknowns, or simply advocating becoming more well-rounded in your problem domain.

Also, I would argue there's much more to consider before offhandedly determining anything you don't know "is the riskiest part of your business". The real answer probably lies in the question: Can I hire somebody to do this, or is it important enough to distract us from other goals? If yes then do it, otherwise reconsider when resources free up.

</comment><comment><USER3> "Choose wars based on strengths & battles based on weaknesses" - the title of the post makes more sense if you just Copy and Paste it... ('battled' in current title)</comment>


Xkcd: Popper - <AUTHOR> https://xkcd.com/2078/ <comment><USER2> double negatives means that someone has proved he grew up in Vienna?

<comment><USER3> With a lot of simplifications, the main idea of Popper epistemology is that even if you drop 100 stones you can not prove that the acceleration of gravity is 9.8m/s^2 (32ft/s^2) because you will never be sure that the next stone will follow the same physics law.

You can only refute "all" the alternatives: That g=10m/s^2. That g=7m/s^2. That g=-1m/s^2. That the stone falls with a constant vertical velocity of 2m/s. That the fall is a cubic with h=7.3 m/s^3 * t^3. That ... Well, there are too many alternatives and you never can refute "all" of them, you can only refute many of them.

So, there are laws of physics are not "proven", it's just that the main alternatives are "refuted". You can find the details and a correct explanation in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper) [1]

The joke is that while technically true, it's too difficult to talk in this way, so most people just talk as if the laws of physics were "proven".

As a general rule, you can get a good explanation of the xkcd comics in the explainxkcd site. In this case [https://explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2078](https://explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2078) But I don't like the current version of the explanation there too much, it will get better in a few days.

[1] No one has proven that you can't find the details and a correct explanation in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper)

<comment><USER2> Yes, I understand that but [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_negative#Two_negatives_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_negative#Two_negatives_resolving_to_a_positive) means that the joke is further complicated by, depending on various things, the double negative construction may not actually be saying exactly what is wanted.</comment></comment></comment>


Why I Stopped Writing Recommendation Letters for Teach for America - <AUTHOR> http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2013/10/teach_for_america_recommendations_i_stopped_writing_them_and_my_colleague.html

<comment><USER3> My wife and I joined the New York City Teaching Fellows—a NYC-based spinoff of TFA—in 2006 at the tender age of 22. I taught in the New York City public school system for seven years and earned my masters in special education and a school building leader license along the way. Much of the article jives with my experience.

Not only is there little to no support for teachers, but it sometimes feels like because there are a few bad teachers floating around in the system, that everyone needs to be punished and inconvenienced. I like job security as much as the next person, but I was a huge advocate for getting rid of tenure as a result.

I'm still incredibly passionate about education, but suspect that being a teacher is the best way to create change. Even in my short tenure, the amount of bureaucracy had increased exponentially. When asked for advice on becoming a teacher by a college student recently, I recommended against it—which broke my own heart, because I believe that it's an incredibly important profession—just not one I would give my twenties to again knowing what I know now.

</comment><comment><USER4> Edited to add a citation.

At many universities (certainly my undergrad) the mean and median students in the Education department are weaker than students in other departments. Taking the weakest to bring out the best in our students seems very odd. There is some research that suggests teacher certification can actually be counterproductive. [1] If we were in the situation of Finland (teachers are in the top 10% of their class) then we would not need this type of intervention.

 _An increasing amount of research shows that TFA recruits perform at best no better, and often worse, than their trained and certified counterparts._ I do not believe this to be conclusive. TFA teachers are being tossed into failing schools and systems and meeting or exceeding their supposedly more well trained peers.

 _Would a biology professor write a recommendation to medical school for an English major who's never taken any core science courses? That would be strange. It would be even stranger if the professor knew the English major was just going into medicine for a few years, as a way to boost his resume, before ultimately going on to a career in public relations._

This is the one true, and serious complaint. TFA has turned into a place for smart high achievers to spend two years before going to grad school. Ideally many stay involved in education, but not all of them. But... It still does more for society than sending another couple percent of our best and brightest into banking and consulting.

[1] [http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/dobbie_fryer_re...](http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/dobbie_fryer_revision_final.pdf) Bottom of page 2, top of page 3.

<comment><USER5> >> At many universities (certainly my undergrad) the mean and median students in the Education department are weaker than students in other departments. Taking the weakest to bring out the best in our students seems very odd. There is some research that suggests teacher certification can actually be counterproductive. [1] If we were in the situation of Finland (teachers are in the top 10% of their class) then we would not need this type of intervention.

To the degree to which this is accurate,this flips the cause and effect. Finland, as a society, invests in its teachers and in teaching as a profession. In the US teaching isn't a terrifically paid job and isn't respected as a profession. If we invested more in teachers and teaching then we'd see those ratios start to change, maybe generationally. As it stands, though, teachers tend to get the brunt of the blame for "failing" schools - <USER2> both the right and the left politically now.

<comment><USER4> My understanding of Finland isn't that teachers are paid more, it's that they are highly respected. (Similar to Singapore) They are in a positive cycle: Teachers are respected -> The elite want to become teachers -> Teachers are respectable.

We are in the converse of that: Teachers are not respected -> The bottom want to become teachers -> Teachers are not respectable.

I'm not putting all of the blame on teachers. Some part of the problem is individual teachers. Some is the stupidity of their unions. Some is poor administration. Some is society for not demanding more out of everyone involved in education.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "For humanities majors, TFA is a clear path to a job that both pays a living wage and provides a stepping stone to leadership positions in a cause of national importance."

Universities have no incentive to steer students away from their areas of interest, but if it's this hard for a humanities major to earn a living wage, we're producing too many of them. Humanities departments have a vested interest in maintaining their output but I can't help but think that they're hurting themselves in the long run.

Humanities are an important part of a well-rounded student, and there are lots of instances where a humanities minor with a technical or business related major is a powerful combination. I'd hate to see the humanities die, but can they keep living like this? There should be more outrage among their graduates ... when that happens (and I've seen a few articles), things will get much harder for them.

As an aside, making 0xx and 1xx level introductory classes in the humanities, which are required as part of the GenEds or BDRs (Basic Degree Requirements) too hard is in many cases teaching students in other disciplines to hate you ... you should draw those students into your minors programs.

<comment><USER7> As someone who took enough history classes to ALMOST get to major reqs while an undergrad, I agree with you about class difficulty. There was actually very little difference in the difficulty of a 100 and a 400 class. The difference was in depth. Your 100 would be a European History class while your 400 would be about Postwar Germany. I loved history so I was biased toward enjoyment but I can see how those who had little background in history having real difficulty.

There's another side to that--the cool thing about history as a major was that the dept. structure was flatter. It was basically about doing interesting research. You could take 600 level classes with your TAs if you thought you could hang with them in reading. Definitely not the case in the more skill based fields.

Research, of course, is a skill, which is probably what they ought to be teaching more of in 100 level classes. Most kids when they get to college have not been asked to say, write a paper only from primary sources.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I was taking education classes late in college considering what's known as an alternative certification, which is actually quite similar in structure for TfA, the difference being of course is that the teachers are TRAINED IN EDUCATION.

I had a late class and overlapping the end was a TfA class next door for people who were currently teaching. We did some joint work occasionally and I could almost always at least hear what was going on in their sessions. It was far more like going to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting than a class. Students basically sat and traded horrible stories every day for at least half the class or more. There was very little instruction in proper discipline. I'd say 25% were not visibly overwhelmed by their teaching jobs and almost all of them were involved with education or they were psych majors who had been heavily involved in schools.</comment>