PWA Store - <AUTHOR> https://progressiveapp.store/pwas <comment><USER2> Awesome collection! One thing I am always curious about, the right click and open in new tab does not work on the list items. I have seen this on many recent JS heavy web applications. Is this normal for PWAs to not support traditional browser interaction points?

I can understand PWA wants to be more than just a web page and have their own UX. I have more experience in Backend software development and right now leading a small web/mobile/devops team, and always stress to not override browser controls unless absolutely necessary. Somewhat similar thing happens with scrolling. I feel most of the JS overridden scrolling is not needed.

<comment><USER3> You often have the dilemma whether something should be a link, or just a button. Links trigger a navigation to another page/URL, although in an "app" it could just render a new view rather then making a new browser request. A button is usually not a navigation, although it can render a new view and also have a unique URL. So the only difference is that you can right click and open in new tab on links, but not on buttons. And then you have to decide if you should style it like a button element or a:href element, where a:href signals to the user that they can right click and open in new tab, while a button does not. But you can also make an a:href _look_ like a button, which can be considered an anti-pattern. Buttons do look nicer then links though. And buttons can also trigger a navigation, like in a form submit, but it's technically difficult to support submitting and open in new tab at the same time, because browsers have a hard separation between tabs, where one tab can't easily access another tab and vice versa. So while it's technically possible UX is often a matter of budget/laziness and stack/architecture.

<comment><USER4> There's not really much of a delimma. This is a problem that was solved in "single page apps" 10 years ago.

        - links are for navigation
        - buttons are for action

Styling and appearance are not a factor - you can make buttons look like links, links look like buttons.

Simple rule is "should this view have a url". Should the user be able to navigate directly to this page? Should it exist in the history? Should the user be able to share a URL to that page to someone else? Most times the answer to all of these is.

In your javascript application, it is trivial to do single page app view navigations (without triggering a full browser request) by listening to link clicks and acting on it just as you would if it were a button click. All frameworks and routing libraries will handle this for you out of the box. If you roll your own, its not that difficult to add this functionality.

<comment><USER5> Should "book now" be a button or a link?

It is an action, but it navigates you to the booking page. That page should have a url and should be able to be shared. But wanting to "book now" is an action and most sites have them as a button.

<comment><USER6> I will reword GP: if your <button> onClick navigates to another URL, your button is not a button but a link.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Interesting, and congratulations on launching the site! How do you plan on growing and generating demand?

I starting making exactly this back in 2018 but didn't get people interested back then so I dropped it and let the domain expire, see the original (seems broken though):

[https://web.archive.org/web/20180901171627/http://web- app.st...](https://web.archive.org/web/20180901171627/http://web-app.store/)

It was my first time using a skeleton in CSS and using a Google Form as the way to submit a new app (with the spreadsheet as the database). I believe it was also my first PWA but I'm not 100% sure about that. While I learned a lot, some times I regret not having followed through, will keep an eye on [https://progressiveapp.store/](https://progressiveapp.store/) to see how it goes.

<comment><AUTHOR> well I really just love PWA's and the freedom it brings to the developers and wanted to create a store to help show their potential.

Appreciate it!

<comment><USER8> PWA is definitely great for developers and users. But I often see users asking for native apps even when they're using PWA at hand. They say "It's more convenience to have app version".

<comment><USER9> I'd argue that many people wouldn't know wether they were looking at a PWA or a native application written in a JS container format (like react-native).

I can't think of a way that native apps are more convenient? With automatic updates it's even less convenient to have the updates go through the app store.

<comment><USER8> They may not distinct visually, but iPhone user without chrome can definitely tell.

I totally agree with you, I developed a PWA and 'native app' which is mostly an webview of the same content. I often use the PWA version but it seems most (if not all) of my users are using the app version even when the app stores approve updates in a notifiable slower rate.

My native app do used some native plugin, but those functions are not often used by the users. So I feel they just blindly ask for apps.

Maybe they think native app loads faster than PWA? People don't want to wait for a SPA first-time loading but they won't blame the download and install time of native apps.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Awesome idea! I would reccomend seeding this with the pwa version of very popular apps. If you want to grow this you'll need to expand beyond people who know or even care what a pwa is. The easiest way is just to convert people from using an app they use now to using the pwa.

Think about a random nontechnical Facebook user - How would they get their feet wet? Likely by opening the pwa of Facebook, realizing it's pretty solid, and trying new ones after that. (I'm not saying Facebook is a good example, just the audience you might think about).

I'd definitely be into helping out with marketing strategy, lmk if you need advice or an extra hand.

</comment><comment><USER11> > "This caused app stores to turn into a series of ads and in app purchases."

Right, because the core technology PWA is based on, the web, hasn't been tainted with ads.

<comment><USER12> How has the web been tainted with ads?

Many sites people have put on the web based on their business decisions are, sure.

But that doesn't mean the core technology has been fundamentally tainted, any business not operating on a model of generating revenue from passive views generally doesn't display ads on their sites/in their products.

<comment><USER11> I am saying the drive for revenue and the programming model of the web have created an abuse vector for user experience. That's all. We know it's true because platforms that have grown dominant on the web (indexing it, for instance) have to build scores and filters as a layer to protect the user from this. AMP is another example of investing in the protection of users. If it hand't been tainted, the user experience wouldn't need this level of protection from it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Your icon has those stripes on it that you usually see in previews for stock icons. Are you sure you have permission to use it? (it appears to be from "Shopping Set 4" by 13ree)

</comment><comment><USER14> I like the idea, but taking UX ideas from Android or iOS app stores leads only to frustration. For now there are only a couple of screens worth of apps, so it's not a problem.

Search is quite useless. It seems to only display list of matching names. So I can't even search for "game". It does not filter.

I think the UX is supposed to encourage experimentation, but I always find it daunting whenever I try to find an app for something. There is this bunch of huge icons, not enteirly clear names or just straight up deceiving ones and a rating. To get to even a slight neutral description what the thing is one has to tap in, many times also dive deep in description just to have an idea what the thing is trying to be. I guess with web platform it may be easier than normal apps, also I feel I must trust an app much more to install it, but this gives me the same vibes. A channel of spewed icons and mostly unhelpful names.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, I just can't stand how useless Play Store is at finding things.

</comment><comment><USER15> I am not a fan of Material UI (and especially the Material UI library for React). It looks kinda gross and it's really difficult to customise.

Also, you've made a very common mistake of setting `outline: none` to your focus states! Very bad for people who navigate using a keyboard.

Good job on launching, by the way.

<comment><USER16> Also, what's up with so many websites being built in a way that makes "open in new tab"/middle click impossible? This problem is exacerbated by the fact that clicking "back", either in the browser or in the webpage, doesn't remember your position in the previous page. Is this due to whatever javascript UI framework was used?

<comment><USER17> No, it's due to using a custom event handler to trigger page changes, instead of the proper <a> link element.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I hate to say it but this just demonstrates, all in one place, how far behind PWAs are from native apps. Does anyone have an example of a PWA (hosted here or elsewhere) that rivals the best apps seen in native app stores? I'm talking about beautiful animations, native-feeling navigation, and an overall immersive, cohesive experience?

<comment><USER19> Twitter's

The topics of judgement you mentioned are all entirely subjective, but they run near identically for me.

<comment><USER20> Does the native app also constantly fail to load tweets linked from Reddit? And then you click the "retry" button and it fails again? Cause that's my general Twitter website experience...

<comment><USER21> I think that's some sort of bug/poor interaction with anti-tracking features.

<comment><USER22> I don't use any anti tracking or ad blockers. I have the normal Reddit all and Twitter app on my pixel 3a and every time I click on a Twitter link it opens in an in app browser that can't log me in.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Neat site, but the "Why PWA's?" section is laughable.

> FREE to install

> HTTPS is required meaning you data is secure

> Takes up less storage on your phone. No need to pay extra money for higher > storage

> No in app purchases or ads. Just a clean and simple app experience

> Has an offline mode. Apps can be used in areas where this is no internet > connection

All of them are either misleading or completely wrong. The comparison randomly switches from websites to phone apps whenever convenient.

It would be a lot better to provide a more objective description of what PWAs even are.

<comment><USER24> The number one reason to choose PWA over native is performance.

<comment><USER25> Could you elaborate on that? Performance of what exactly?

<comment><USER24> Loading times and responsiveness.

For example, Twitter's native iOS app is about 115 MB, while their PWA is a tiny fraction of that, probably not more than a few MB. This unsurprisingly reflects on performance.

<comment><USER25> Wow thats huge. I haven't used twitter in years, I wonder if it was always so bloated.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Congratulations on the launch.

I have been lately working with lot of clients who want PWA's and I have found [https://appsco.pe/](https://appsco.pe/) to be one of the nicest PWA gallery.

<comment><USER27> What motivates them to want PWAs, out of curiosity? Usually interest seems to come from developers.

<comment><USER28> I like websites more than apps for a couple of reasons:

\- Better isolation from my device. I don't worry about them sucking up information I don't want them to have. \- I can share links to my friends (if the website has good URLs of course) \- I can use it on every device. I don't need to worry if it has an Android App and website, I can just use the website on both. \- I can use the same app as my friends no matter what phone they use.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> This site doesn't use links so it is very frustrating to use. I was trying to middle click to open new tabs but it didn't work because they aren't <a> tags.

<comment><USER29> Sadly that's a common problem with single-page apps and modern web front end.

It's trivial to implement but many devs don't pay attention to those things.

<comment><USER28> People underestimate the value in functionality and consistency that native interfaces provide.

It is also partially the web's fault. There isn't an easy way to detect an "in-page" navigation. The best solution I am aware of is:

1\. Add global "click" listener. 2\. Check that the click target was an `a` tag. 3\. Check that the click was a single left click with no modifiers. 4\. Check that the `href` points to a page that you can render. 5\. Call event.preventDefault() and handle the navigation yourself.

But step 3 isn't even sufficient as people can configure their browsers to open all links in new windows or tabs.

<comment><USER29> > But step 3 isn't even sufficient as people can configure their browsers to > open all links in new windows or tabs.

You know many people that do that?

I do that for search results and Reddit but I don't want that behavior for all websites.

<comment><USER28> I don't know about many but I do something similar. I make all links open in the same tab. Then if I want another tab I can middle click. This way I can decide where links open, not the website owner.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Is there a simple way to charge for a monthly PWA subscription without coding a backend to handle the various subscription use cases and without providing a complicated UI to subscribers?

<comment><USER23> Well it depends on how "simple" you want it to be, but services have Stripe have pretty comprehensive solutions.

<comment><USER30> My understanding is that Stripe offers UI to sign up for a subscription, but then offers only an API for other subscription actions such as changing from monthly to yearly or cancelling. Someone have a link describing Stripe's comprehensive UI for subscriptions?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> I did a similar thing back in 2012 :) but it was only for web games, which run without plugins. Authors of games submit the name of a game, the URL of the game, and the URL of a thumbnail (similar to a PWA manifest).

There is a "gallery" \- a store of games. But most importantly, manifests are available as a JSON feed, which anybody can use. It is at [http://www.spreadmygame.com/](http://www.spreadmygame.com/)

<comment><USER3> You shouldn't open sites in an iframe. Just take the user directly to the game/page. You can still monetize with ads, like Google does.

<comment><USER31> My idea was, that both the author and a publisher would monetize it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Is there a reason I can't middle click on a game and have it open in a new tab/window?

<comment> Seb-C I tried exactly the same thing and then left frustrated.

This seems to be exclusively optimized on mobile devices, and is not even properly responsive. A progressive web app should be usable both as an app and in a browser. This is not the case here.

<comment><USER33> Yup, cells like that should be a link, and if it's a client-side router it should still not take over from basic browser functionality.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> The Apps I've tried don't seem to work offline on iOS after saving to home screen.

Does iOS support offline use of PWAs? (Or perhaps this is an issue with my phone... anyone able to reproduce, or find an App that does work offline?)

Steps: Open App, enable airplane mode, go to iPhone home screen, open the App again, App is unresponsive.

Apps I tried: [https://progressiveapp.store/pwa/219](https://progressiveapp.store/pwa/219) and [https://progressiveapp.store/pwa/87](https://progressiveapp.store/pwa/87)

EDIT: Might be a bug: [https://github.com/facebook/create-react- app/issues/8889](https://github.com/facebook/create-react-app/issues/8889)

</comment><comment><USER35> The tower game was really good and if you told me it was a pwa I would've been blown away

<comment><USER28> [https://www.towergame.app/](https://www.towergame.app/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Could you build PWA top of IPFS or something similar and create decentralized apps.

<comment><USER37> Out of curiosity, what advantage would that provide?

<comment><USER36> 1.fault tolerance 2. scalable and 3. would be a pretty cool and novel concept.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Let's say I create a progressive web app. What are the options to monetize it? I see that this PWA store specifies that a progressive Web app is free. For the concept to go beyond hobbyists, shouldn't we sell a different story, like one where indie developers can make a living by creating and selling their applications? Mobile app stores have a lot of issues but you can develop a sustainable business there.

I have multiple progressive web application that I'm currently working on and I'm struggling a bit with that point.

<comment><USER12> I think most PWAs are essentially front-end clients to a SaaS, so revenue typically comes from user subscriptions.

Other than that like another user mentioned there's any monetization methods on the web at your disposal (advertising, microtransactions, donations etc) it really comes down to what business model you want to operate on and what seems most natural for users of your product.

As far as a "buy it, you own the copy" model like with traditional media software and games go I don't think there is anything universal to use, most developers would implement their own licensing in their billing/accounts layer and expose a serial key or something that local data gets encrypted with as a rudimentary DRM, so the app can only be used later by having the right serial key (whether from LocalStorage/cache/a fresh login) for that paid user to decrypt and use their local data.

It would be interesting if some service like PWA Store were to offer some kind of universal DRM to developers wanting to sell offline PWAs on a one-off sale format that they can easily wrap their app bundle in

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I'm on Safari and I clicked through to the HN app, and was basically presented with a blank page with some headings:

[https://imgur.com/a/jqUw5Gl](https://imgur.com/a/jqUw5Gl)

I assume this isn't what it should look like.

Sorry about the bug report here, I couldn't find any contact link.

<comment><USER40> You have to launch it pressing the free button.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> Hi, I've always loved these PWA stores. I just updated the [https://offline- dino-game.firebaseapp.com/](https://offline-dino-game.firebaseapp.com/) PWA with the ability to save your highscore to localstorage! Took me long enough...

</comment><comment><USER42> I love PWAs. I'd be really curious to know if anyone could point to some good examples of PWAs doing biometric authentication using facial recognition / fingerprint.

I don't actually know if it's possible using standard APIs that work on iPhone and Android

<comment><USER43> I played with this when it game out.

At least the demo worked.

[https://webauthndemo.appspot.com/](https://webauthndemo.appspot.com/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> I have been wondering, since PWA are sandboxed and all, would it be possible to save a "snapshot" of it and be able to run it even if the original website/app went offline?

<comment><USER45> That's left entirely to the developer to decide. You can intercept your network requests with a service worker and decide what to do from there [1].

[1] [https://livebook.manning.com/book/progressive-web- apps/chapt...](https://livebook.manning.com/book/progressive-web- apps/chapter-4/2)

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> That is great to read this news online. We can not go anywhere now as COVID-19. So many people are surging dating game, especially apps, such as Tinder, Bumble, Yumi and Meetme.

</comment><comment><USER47> For launch, it would be good to hide unfinished apps.

The hn app is fast and slick, for example, but it doesn't have comment collapse which is a major omission.

</comment><comment><USER48> Nice interface. What stack did you use to build your site? Any links to your repository, please? Many thanks.

</comment><comment><USER49> Very nice. Is there any automated validation that submissions are truly "PWA", work offline, etc?

<comment><USER50> checkout Lighthouse, its build into the Chrome dev tools

</comment></comment><comment><USER51> Any reason Github OAuth needs permissions like Resources and Actions for login?

</comment><comment><USER52> I held out hope for PWAs for so long but I think React Native has won.

<comment><USER23> No one has "won". The vast majority of phone apps are still written using native code and frameworks, and that will be the case for the foreseeable future.

<comment><USER53> PWA's aren't for developers with the time and resources to build native apps. It's for web developers who want to improve the mobile experience on their sites.

<comment><USER54> Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok all have PWAs, plus many more well funded businesses.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Like this demo. Btw, PWA can still contain purchases or ads

</comment><comment><USER55> Played the dino game, reminds me of elementary school.

Pretty neat!

<comment><AUTHOR> glad you enjoyed the ad free gaming experience!

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> How is the push notification story with PWA's?

<comment><AUTHOR> On android and desktop notifications work well. We use push notifications to inform users when their PWA is approved.

IOS it is still not supported yet but should be soon

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> Great work. Found some gems there.

</comment><comment><USER58> Do you have categories?

</comment><comment> rlv-dan Does not work in Pale Moon browser (blank screen, JS errors)

<comment><USER59> Thats pretty unsurprising seeing as Pale Moon is not on-par with the standards and actively trying to not keep up, but instead seem to focus on keep support with legacy tech Mozilla removed quite a while ago.

Also they actively disabled service workers, the very tech that enables PWAs in the first place

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> site not opening in the edge browser.

</comment><comment><USER61> what are your thoughts on recent news apple is removing functionality important to PWAs?

<comment><AUTHOR> apple is lagging behind on PWA support but PWA's are definitely coming either way. the reason why apple is lagging on support is because it will take a significant hit on their app store revenues as PWA's remove having to go throw third parties such as apple

<comment><USER62> Why would I use a PWA over a native so if I had the choice though?

<comment><USER23> Well if the PWA experience is good enough then some developers aren't going to list their apps in the app store at all so they can bypass Apple's revenue cut. PWAs also have less access in general and so are more secure/sandboxed.

<comment><USER63> Most of the revenue made from app stores come from pay to win games (which need native performance) or subscriptions that work across platforms. Many major players that use subscription prices have abandoned Apple's subscription payments.

Second issue, what are the chances that I would trust some random website with my credit card information?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> This is further regression from UI consistency, with no supervision, now on Desktop. Every javascript developer has their own way of doing UI, often a hodgepodge of framework libraries mashed up to make it work.

IMO, the entire world has regressed into chaos when it comes to design and UI. Democratic design choices and process is far inferior to dictatorial approach we had going in 90's and into 2000's (See 98.css recently posted: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22940564](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22940564)). Let everyone run loose and we all lose.

Yes, it was painful to develop applications using native UI elements but those apps provide a fantastic, consistent UI experience.

In addition, the entire Javascript ecosystem is rotten with horrible bloat built atop more bloat by many inexperienced software engineers - sorry, I don't meant to insult anyone but this is a factual observation from my own experience of developing on React and Angular. When a website that's serving trivial content is hogging so much CPU, it is time to refactor everything. It is actually time to refactor what we see as a modern browser.

<comment><USER25> > Yes, it was painful to develop applications using native UI

I actually think it's getting easier. Android and iOS are both offering quick, modern ways of building UIs with there upcoming UI frameworks thats IMO far less work than the web where things have to often be built from scratch or from some third party that will abandon it.

<comment><USER65> I think the issue is the following: In the 90s there was exactly two vendors with reasonable user base and design philosophies (Microsoft and Apple). And even they had a similar behavior.

With the advent of web application we ignored it for a while (it is just a window with some strange stuff in it). However, with the mobile platforms (Android, iOS), bootstrap framework and the rise of strict user interface guideline by mega companies (like Google Material Design), the number of UX styles literally exploded. I try to enumerate them, but the web is full of variants.

As a dream, we should consolidate to device factors: Desktop, Mobile, Watch and Interactive. But Apple, Microsoft and Google are not on the same page here ;) If they would, magic could happen.

<comment><USER64> Thank you for articulating this better than I can. You've nailed the crux of my concerns.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: My Zappos/Twilio hackathon entry  - <AUTHOR> http://www.anonysize.me

<comment><USER2> Great idea. It gives me that "duh" moment that I hadn't thought of it before!

While I think the visuals are beautiful, I did notice that your current call to action on the page appears to be the description itself. The actual form action has the least weight to me visually, as the button hovering above the example draws the eye.

If your intention is on conversions of the form, perhaps you might consider shifting the focus with some very small re-work.

<comment><USER3> I agree. I actually hovered over the example at first thinking that it might be interactive since there was such a prominent CTA above it.

To the point of the description drawing the most attention, perhaps it should be swapped with the actual signup form–the description can align itself on the left and the form would be centered (which may actually provide a nice balance: description left, example right, and what you actually do right between the two).

<comment><USER4> Same here. At first, I thought "Like This" was the same thing for me to like it on Facebook. You may want to phrase that somewhat differently.

Love the concept! Good luck!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> You should figure out websites that have affiliate programs, force the requester to choose a website, and when you end the text message, include the website to add some validity. Including the well-known brand will seem like it comes from a more legitimate website than you (no offense).

For example:

"Hey Andy!Someone shopping on Zappos.com for you and wants to know your shoe size. Reply with your size (ex '9', '10.5')

Also, when you send back the sizes to the requester, you could include an affiliate link for the site they requested to help monetize.

<comment><AUTHOR> What if I let online retailers provision their own unique number and embed the service in their website?

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I just tried this with my gf. She was seating across to me and When she received the text message, she was confused and told me "OMG how do they know my name?". Then I explained to her what it was, she obviously told me she wouldn't have answered it. Maybe it'd be cool to find a way to validate the sender to the receiver without losing the anonymosity. Really digging this though! I always hate having to ask people their sizes, what they like, etc...

</comment><comment><USER7> This is awesome. Now if only Zappos had an affiliate program so you could make some money off of these clicks too.... Oh wait! We do!

<comment><USER8> JJacobson - I am having issues with the affiliate program of Zappos for a visual search engine we are creating. I would like to ask you about this. My email is knandyal at stylewok dot com. thanks

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Wow this is a great hackathon project. It's simple, but something that people will actually want to use after the hackathon. I do agree that the message may need some tuning up though. Maybe say "John is using anonysize.me to ask you for your size" etc. It adds some credibility even though no one has heard of you, and it leads to brand awareness, advertising, and hopefully more users (this is just based on the text message on your homepage, however).

</comment><comment><USER10> This is a really neat concept and the design is gorgeous!

How effective has this been? Personally if I got an anonymous text like that I wouldn't reply haha

<comment><USER11> why not, what's the worst that someone can do with your shoe size?

<comment><USER12> Responding to spam at all lets the spammer know that they've got a "live one" on the other end of the email/phone.

<comment><USER13> Not true for SMS. Basically all SMS gateways provide some form of delivery receipt, which are automatically sent to notify of successful delivery of a message.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> the only downside i see to this is that anybody i might use this service on would immediately know it was me, because i'd be the only one nerdy enough to use it.

worded another way: the only way i see to make this service better is to make it more popular.

</comment><comment><USER15> Love the idea (and the pun). But I can't think of many of my non-tech savvy female friends (speaking from NYC) who would not be totally freaked out by this.

Those of us more familiar with data (both males and females) know that if we were to get a message like this, it most likely came from a friend or former friend since it requires knowing your phone #. But in a world of constant social media privacy scares, the average person is going to be hyper paranoid about sending off any kind of personal data to an anonymous requester.

 _and of course I'm not implying that females are less likely to be tech savvy. I'm implying that in my own set of female friends, there is a higher fear of stalkers than among my male friends)_

<comment><AUTHOR> UPDATE: I tested this on a male friend yesterday who happens to be in the same area code as my twilio #. Today his wife saw the message and thought some lady was trying to seduce him or have an affair. This is funny.

Funny I actually tweaked the SMS message a few times after some female friends I tested it on got creeped out a bit.

The main feedback was to make it clear that someone close to them initiated it. (close in the social sense)

<comment><USER15> Yes I don't think it's a failure on your part at all, it's just a very hard needle to thread.

The interconnectedness of technology scares people who don't work in it. My roommate freaked out when she found all her personal info was on pipl, even though she has a Twitter account and her info on various other niche sites, including public records. And no amount of logical argument could persuade her that she was not being personally targeted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Zappos will love this. Great idea and I love the name. As a critique, I'd recommend rearranging the form/descp/iphone image on the launch page. I think you rather have users read what this is before the "SIGN UP" on the left!

<comment><USER7> Agreed! We do love it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Apart from the comments seen here, just a small bit of advice from me: Fix the color of your ordered list. I noticed that it's gray for "li" in general, and white for "#splash ol li", but its still gray in Chrome for Ubuntu.

</comment><comment><USER18> From the comments below, it seems that only the "non-nerds", "non-tech savy" guys would be naive enough to be suspicious when they get an anonymous SMS notification to divulge personal details.Maybe in a perfect world, that is true, but we are not there yet. I know that the next big viral, customer- facing app/service would probably be pushing the boundary of privacy and build new business-models around it. I find this a tad depressing.

</comment><comment><USER19> neat idea, did you conceive it at the hackathon or bring it in?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I didn't even know of the hackathon until reading Twilio's blog Wednesday. Thought of it then and built it Wed and Thurs night. The hackathon is actually sponsored by Zappos and i think it started on Monday.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Love the idea, very simple and quite fresh. Though I agree with others that the service will require awareness. I doubt people will want to provide personal information without knowing the source. Still I can't help but think that an idea like this will quickly spread. Good job!

</comment><comment><USER21> You could expand this and have it work on clothes and ring sizes.

<comment><AUTHOR> That was the initial plan (clothes) but I ran out of time. Plus the Zappos API was a little confusing on a few details.

One thing that baffles me is women's clothes sizes ... some things are small, med, large ... others are 1, 3, 5 ... and others 2, 4, 6, etc ... ugh :/

<comment><USER22> And just wait until you have to internationalise it...

<comment><USER23> Apparently different brands also size things differently. A size 6 from Banana Republic would be a size 8 at GAP. People go to the expensive store and feel better because they bought a smaller size.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Cool. But I think most people would be able to guess who sent the text based on who is likely to be buying shoes for them.

</comment><comment><USER25> Super simple and neat idea, awesome job!

</comment><comment><USER26> Cool! Does this work outside of the US?

<comment><USER11> theoretically it shouldy as twilio has recently expanded to UK, Canada, and are in beta for a few others... <http://www.twilio.com/faq/international> <http://www.twilio.com/international-sms>

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Wow, awesome. Do agree with the arguments about some of the freakiness, ut could so this being huge.

</comment><comment><USER28> I really like this, nice job.

</comment><comment><USER29> Very sharp- great job!

</comment><comment><USER15> So I tried this on my friends while we were all waiting in line for a movie.

I tried it on one friend first and she glaced at it and immediately thought it was spam. Then I sent it to her BF who thought it was weird but also assumed it was spam. Both were annoyed when I told them I had sent it for giving a service their phone #. The couple is young and fairly tech savvy.

Also, the message-success screen was too wide for the iPhone and would not zoom out properly.

Perhaps this should be done by email? The big problem with the phone is that you provide them with no context at all about the site.

</comment><comment><USER30> Ok, this is awesome!

</comment><comment><USER31> Ok, so they sent them a text.. then what? Does it pick out the gift for me as well? Does it send the gift to that person for me? Or it just gets the shoe size, ring size, or whatever?

<comment><USER32> Really?

<comment><USER31> Umm.. Look at the homepage Step #3) We find them great gifts.

If you're just finding the size, reword it to "You find them great gifts", NOT we.</comment></comment></comment>


Coursera Jumps the Shark - <AUTHOR> http://higheredstrategy.com/coursera-jumps-the-shark/

<comment><USER2> If they keep sharing great content via courses, and make traditional education better (by replacing Blackboard), more power to them. I would have loved to have a tool like this when I was in school. My grades would have been better if I had access to old lectures to prepare for exams (though, I'm not sure how quickly instructors would be willing to post lectures). When I last used it 5+ years ago, Blackboard sucked... I'm assuming that hasn't changed. Anyone have more recent thoughts on that front?

<comment><USER3> My school used Blackboard as well (and as you know it's pretty bad), but what was funny was that the CS department used something called Whiteboard which seemed to be much better designed (I wonder if it was made by a former student or something along those lines)

</comment></comment><comment> alok-g This rather feels to be the right step to me as explained below.

Before MOOCs, knowledge went from the creators (original researchers) to the students via a chain of steps -- academic papers, advanced topic-specific books, curriculum books, local university professors, finally to the students. MOOCs have shown a way where most of these steps can be bypassed, with top- notch creators directly delivering education to the students. It's like Feynman delivering the lectures to a much wider audience than he actually did.

One problem remains partly unsolved - how to ensure students actually grasp all the concepts, stay motivated to complete the courses, get personalized career guidance, and also are unable to cheat in the exams. This requires a local system of teachers and teaching assistants, which already exists.

Why not combine both systems, even though now it is just blended learning per the OP. Cannot say about others, I have certainly encountered teachers who were not up to the mark. Future will being students lectures directly from the Feynmans of today with the local system just aiding the delivery. This is no different than cutting the middle men out [1] that can both improve education and make it cheaper in the long term.

Coursera and others has started by making the courses free which, while not sustainable by itself [2], has enabled countless poor students to take the courses. The future just holds the prices of this education tailored to the local markets (differential pricing) which can still be better than education today on the quality/price figure-of-merit.

[1] This allows the professors to spend more time on their research work.

[2] OK, I am not in the favor of advertising within the course content.

</comment><comment><USER4> Feisty little guy. Apparently a company can either work on courses or on course management software, but not both.

<comment><USER5> I had the same impression... was like "wow, dude is hacked off and taking names!"

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> > And so the revolution ends with a whimper, not with a roar.

Is he criticizing Coursera for changing strategies in a changing market? It seems premature to declare it all over.

</comment><comment><USER7> Any reason to think they are not going to do both? Before coursera exploded I had thought of doing something similar, and the eventual plan had been to provide the software to universities (for pay), but that was mainly to support the idea of great education for all.

</comment><comment><USER8> Over-hauling higher ed is a long term goal that may pitch well in board rooms but is too slow for VC money in the long run. Seeing as they are fairly restricted by VC influence now I think Blackboard is a soft target they could K.O. Fairly easily and start seeing some real money. Blackboard has only survived until this point because it buys up the rest of the market.

</comment><comment><USER9> Author seems to be drinking the higher-ed koolaide. He clearly doesn't understand Coursera or their mission.

</comment><comment><USER10> > University of West Virginia

West Virginia University

(Go Mountaineers!)

</comment><comment><USER11> (ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻</comment>


Maps attributed to Marco Polo sketch what looks like the coast of Alaska - <AUTHOR> http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/did-marco-polo-discover-america-180952765/

<comment><USER2> This is utterly fascinating (regardless of whether they're genuine, forgeries, or something in between). But this quote strikes me as key here : "As Olshin is first to admit, the authenticity of the ten maps and four texts is hardly settled. The ink remains untested, and a radiocarbon study of the parchment of one key map—the only one subjected to such analysis—dates the sheepskin vellum to the fifteenth or sixteenth century, a sign the map is at best a copy."

Which raises the possibility that the maps are forgeries from the sixteenth century, not the twentieth. It seems like a giant logical jump to conclude that the carbon dating to the 15th/16th century just means that these are copies of older, authentic maps rather than fakes from the early modern period, when knowledge of the Alaska coast would have been more likely via Spanish or Portuguese expeditions in the Pacific. Sounds like an interesting book though, regardless, and it does seem like the author of the book (if not the article) goes out of his way not to claim that they're genuine.

<comment><USER3> Even if they are from the sixteenth century, it would still be something of a mystery. The voyage of the Russian ship St. Gabriel in 1732 (~200 years later) is generally believed to be the first time Europeans reached Alaska. The first Spanish expeditions to Alaska didn't occur until the late 1700s. Also, the suggested geography depicts the Aleutian Islands, and I'm pretty sure the Spanish never made it that far. The Russians were moving into the area in force by that time period -- the approximate boundary between nominal Spanish territory and nominal Russian territory was around Sonoma County, California. And then the British came in...

It's certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that Chinese traders (or perhaps Chinese trading partners) had ranged that far. Certainly a lot of the furs that the Russians and British took out of the region wound up being trafficked into China.

<comment><USER2> It is indeed possible that Chinese trading vessels may have reached the Kamchatka peninsula and the Aleutian Islands. The more unlikely part here is that those voyages would have been made known to a random Venetian barbarian who happened to be passing through, and that said Venetian would be able to obtain such detailed maps. If I were going to come up with a hypothetical explanation for the maps beyond 20th century forgery, I'd say that it's more likely that some 16th century Manila galleon strayed a bit north on the return trip to Acapulco and did some secret mapping. The Spanish Manila route actually got surprisingly close to Alaska: [http://historicphilippines.com/wp- content/uploads/2014/05/ru...](http://historicphilippines.com/wp- content/uploads/2014/05/ruta-de-urdaneta-02-600x344.jpg)

That's a stretch too, of course. But the Spanish were extremely secretive about their cartographic knowledge so the mere fact that there was no official announcement of a discovery doesn't necessarily mean they didn't know about it.

<comment><USER4> The Venetian barbarian was apparently in the court of Kublai Khan for 17 years — I wouldn't really call that passing through nor random.

<comment><USER3> Polo describes (without claiming to have been there himself) a "Land of Darkness", rich in furs, which borders on "Great Rosia", the people of "Rosia" being Christians of the Greek (i.e., Orthodox) form.

That sure seems to fit Siberia/Alaska.

<comment><USER5> Had christianity spread that far east at that point in time?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia#History](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia#History)

<comment><USER6> What you imply is correct. The Russian conquest of Siberia was basically enabled by the decline of Mongol influence, which necessarily post-dates Marco Polo's travels.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Last time I checked, Marco Polo was supposed to never have visited china and all the rest, but based his work of fiction on reports heard in venezia by traders.

<comment><USER6> It is by no means a clear-cut case. Some of the things reported by Marco Polo (e.g. paper money) were completely unknown in the west and middle-east at the time of his purported travels. He gets a remarkable number of things right, and fails to get certain other stuff wrong as one would expect of someone that hadn't actually visited the court of Kublai Khan.</comment></comment>


Lyft scrambling to reinforce background checks after driver rapes 4 women in SF - <AUTHOR> https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/amp/Rideshare-Rapist-case-exposes-flaws-in-Lyft-13089937.php <comment><USER2> Its a pervasive problem with every ride hailing company-- there are not enough measures to prevent bad individuals working for the company.</comment>


Ex-Cisco engineer deleted 456 VMs for WebEx Teams after exit - <AUTHOR> https://www.itnews.com.au/news/ex-cisco-engineer-deleted-456-vms-for-webex-teams-after-exit-552494 <comment><USER2> A good act costing him 5 years of his life, great job buddty.</comment>


Ask HN: Python without dot notation - <AUTHOR>

In his book Learn Python the Hard Way Zed Shaw writes:

    You see that self in the parameters? You know
    what that is? That's right, it's the "extra"
    parameter that Python creates so you can type
    a.some_function() and then it will translate
    that to really be some_function(a).

    Why use self? Your function has no idea what
    you are calling any one "instance" of
    TheThing or another, so you just use a generic
    name self that way you can write your
    function and it will always work.
 http://learnpythonthehardway.org/static/LearnPythonTheHardWay.pdf (p. 116)
This seems to imply that the dot notation is an alternative notation. Is it possible to use Python without the dot notation? <comment><USER2> No, because the text really should be that a.some_function() is transformed to a.__class__.some_function(a). There's no way to get to the function except through dots or circumlocutions like 'getattr'.

There are some exceptions which make the above only an approximation. For example, if 'some_function' happens to be a function bound to the instance rather than the class. (def spam(): pass; instance.spam = spam; instance.spam() ) The result here is not the same as instance.__class__.spam(self) .</comment>


Verizon to buy wireless services provider Tracfone in $6.25B Deal - <AUTHOR> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tracfone-m-a-verizon/verizon-to-buy-wireless-services-provider-tracfone-in-6-25-billion-deal-idUSKBN2651X0 <comment><USER2> I am trying to understand Verizon's motivation here. Are they just buying the subscriber base? Does that mean they are killing Visible?</comment>


Justin Amash announces introducing the "Ending Qualified Immunity Act" - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1267267244029083648 <comment><USER2> Since there were two threads about qualified immunity on the front page, we merged them. The other article has more substance, so we moved (most) comments thither: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23379910).

The remaining comments are the ones that only make sense in this context.

</comment><comment><USER3> Small typo in the title: it's the "Ending Qualified Immunity Act", not the " _End_ Qualified Immunity Act".

</comment><comment><USER4> Thank goodness for common sense.

</comment><comment><USER5> It's unfortunate that in the current political climate this legislation will likely go nowhere. It would be better to see leadership introduce this.

<comment><USER6> Leadership isn't the source for all bills that are passed, though. Maybe as a 3rd party member, the bill would garner bipartisan support?

I do agree with you that the leadership should be offering some sort of legislative solutions. All we have seen so far is deflection.

<comment><USER7> My conspiracy theory is that something else is brewing on the international level that is bigger than these riots. There's been reports of actions by various international adversary militaries. Everyone is extremely busy.

<comment><USER8> Could you be more specific? Which adversaries? What are they doing? What do you expect them to do next? And how do you think that relates to the riots, or to this bill?

<comment><USER7> The low hanging fruit is China taking Hong Kong and making threats of violence against Taiwan. Also: [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/world/asia/india- china-bo...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/world/asia/india-china- border.html)

It doesn't relate to the riots at all. My point is these things reasonably distract leadership from the riots if we're on the razor's edge away from global nuclear war.

<comment><USER9> China has been interested in forceful reunification with Taiwan for ages. Their military has drafted up plans to retake the island numerous times over the years.

Hong Kong has largely served its purpose as a liaison to the West. So it isn't surprising that China wants to reunify with them as well.

<comment><USER7> Well, if it's what China wants then I guess it's fine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> @dang the article does nothing but link to the tweet, I think it would be more useful to link to the tweet instead: [https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1267267244029083648?s...](https://twitter.com/justinamash/status/1267267244029083648?s=20)

<comment><USER10> Some context (the law; its history) would be useful, too.

<comment><USER11> Here's a post that provides more context:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23360295](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23360295)</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What's current U.S. law regarding building and deployment of honeypots? - <AUTHOR>

I'm a GNU/Linux build/release engineer and an opportunity to build a system that is essentially a honeypot came up. However, after researching this specific activity I see more red flags than I'm comfortable dealing with. Perhaps this really is a question for a lawyer with digital crime experience, or it's a response of "no, thanks"...
I have lots of links to information on the topic that I've gathered published since the mid-2000s and this SANS document has always been my goto:
http://www.sans.org/reading-room/whitepapers/legal/cyberlaw-101-primer-laws-related-honeypot-deployments-1746
However, I was wondering if there are more recent changes to the laws and/or a site that is more thorough in treatment of how private parties (contractors) factor into any legal issues that might arise from use of a honeypot deployment.
In other words, what are the references that folks experienced with the topic and/or deployment of honeypots rely of for updates and practical legal knowledge? <comment><USER2> I remember discussing this in a Computer Crime Law class, and it might fall under Wiretap laws because you might be recoding real time user input.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I recall reading a few articles about that. I wasn't clear, however, whether if you can meet the criteria for the "exceptions" if there could be another law somewhere that you could still get hit with. If I am serious about this gig, I'd really have to lawyer up since my legal knowledge is only going to get me in trouble :-)</comment></comment>


Why Qwiki Is The Future of Education - <AUTHOR> http://mmoorejones.com/2011/01/29/qwiki-future-of-education/

<comment><USER2> And why fqwiki may be the future, too -- <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2131563></comment>


Painting a Picture of Your Infrastructure in Minutes - T3OU-736 https://labs.spotify.com/2019/06/04/painting-a-picture-of-your-infrastructure-in-minutes/ <comment> T3OU-736 Visualizing the often complex relationships of various things os often important. This seemed like a neat way

Surely, there are others.</comment>


Ask HN: How do people with Autism survive full day onsite interviews? - <AUTHOR> Hi HN,
I have autism and I just did a round of on-site interviews. What stuck out to me was that I was mostly able to get the answer to problems, but I felt (subjectively, because no company will ever give feedback) that I came off slow, because I was overwhelmed by being in a new place, around new people. There was one answer that I understood that the interviewer thought I didn't get because of this.
I also am prone to anxiety. One interview I had a full on anxiety attack, and even though one of the interviewers mentioned that he wanted me on the team, I was rejected. I feel, subjectively, that it was my panic attack not my coding ability that was rejected. I've tried really hard, and improved lots on that front over the years, but apparently not enough.
Have you been through similar experiences? What worked, didn't work? Are there better ways to approach recruiters about why I feel like I'm failing?
I'm also aware that people are not hiring "brilliant assholes". People with autism often are thought to not have empathy. I don't know if I'm doing a good job communicating, and an interviewer's job is not to let me know if I've communicated correctly. How do I address this? <comment><USER2> I'm not a doctor but:

* Take a beta blocker to help with anxiety during interviews.

* Do little/nothing about it but try to communicate your issue to the interview panel, "I'm here, I'm austic, and I hope that besides my unique conditions you consider me for this position and I aim to perserverere through this incident. I bring alot to the table".

* Additionally tell them what outside activities you're taking up to help with your conditions: team sports, clubs, counseling/therapy.

Edit:

* Try to get a Skype or remote interview first. Again, mention and sell your unique conditions -- but show them your performance from "home" where you're comfortable. Tell them should you get an onsite interview, you may perform differently/worse due to your conditions. But, eventually once acclimated should perform as well as your remote interview.

Help them to better understand you.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you Tenken! I appreciate your input. I'm not sure if beta-blockers would help. What I experienced was closer to an "autistic meltdown", so I'm not sure if beta-blockers would help. I appreciate knowing another option to evaluate however!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Best way to derive an AES256 key from a password/passphrase? - <AUTHOR>

Hi all, I'm working on a crypto app that will use AES256 to encrypt data and am looking for a good way to come up with the AES key.
My current approach to generate the aes key is to ask for a password/passphrase, bcrypt it, then do a SHA256 on the bcrypt hash to generate the key, and store the bcrypt salt. The purpose of the SHA256 is because the bcrypt hash wouldn't be 256 bits.
Are there any weaknesses in this scenario? If so, can anyone suggest a better approach?
Please be polite. <comment><USER2> > The purpose of the SHA256 is because the bcrypt hash wouldn't be 256 bits.

That's nearly equivalent to padding it out with zeroes, which is a lot like just using AES-128 in the first place.

> Are there any weaknesses in this scenario?

Make sure your bcrypt code isn't vulnerable to the common implementation bug disclosed a year or so ago.

> If so, can anyone suggest a better approach?

PBKDF2[ HMAC[SHA-2-256] ] or PBKDF2[ HMAC[SHA-2-512/256] ] can be used to derive your AES-256 keys, and are more officially standard than bcrypt.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thankyou for the helpful reply. I'll look into the PBKDF2 approach. Which would be better, the first or second one you described?

And what is the 'common implementation bug' in bcrypt you described, so i can look out for it?

<comment><AUTHOR> Sounds like OpenSSL's 'PKCS5_PBKDF2_HMAC_SHA1' is the 'officially standard' way to make a key from a password, am i on the right track?

<comment><USER2> Yes, that sounds great. SHA-1 is officially deprecated, but there aren't known weaknesses with using it in PBKDF2 and HMAC. Still, prefer SHA-2 ("SHA-256" or "SHA-512") if it's available.

Be sure you specify an iteration count high enough to consume noticeable time (it should hurt a little bit) and store that count with the salt.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a lot! Very helpful. I'll use that then, since it's part of openssl - then i can claim rightly that i use industry standard crypto, rather than my bcrypt/sha256 mashup that i dreamt up myself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> OK here's my code, any issues with it anyone can see?

        #import <CommonCrypto/CommonKeyDerivation.h>

        ...

        // Makes a random 256-bit salt
        - (NSData*)generateSalt256 {
            unsigned char salt[32];
            for (int i=0; i<32; i++) {
                salt[i] = (unsigned char)arc4random();
            }
            return [NSData dataWithBytes:salt length:32];
        }

        ...

        // Make keys!
        NSString* myPass = @"MyPassword1234";
        NSData* myPassData = [myPass dataUsingEncoding:NSUTF8StringEncoding];
        NSData* salt = [self generateSalt256];

        // How many rounds to use so that it takes 0.1s ?
        int rounds = CCCalibratePBKDF(kCCPBKDF2, myPassData.length, salt.length, kCCPRFHmacAlgSHA256, 32, 100);

        // Open CommonKeyDerivation.h for help
        unsigned char key[32];
        CCKeyDerivationPBKDF(kCCPBKDF2, myPassData.bytes, myPassData.length, salt.bytes, salt.length, kCCPRFHmacAlgSHA256, rounds, key, 32);</comment>


Types, and Why You Should Care [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0arFPIQatCU <comment><USER2> This[0] slide from Rich Hickey's Effective Programs talk[1] has really got me thinking about the benefits of costs of typing.

      "The Problems of Programming"

      Domain Complexity
      Misconception

      10x

      Place Oriented Programming
      Weak support for information
      Brittleness/Coupling
      Language model complexity
      Parochialism/context
      weak support for Names
      Distribution
      Resource utilization
      Runtime intangibility
      Libraries
      Concurrency

      10x

      Inconsistency
      Typos

There are some type systems, for example Rust's, which integrate RAII into the language as a first class concept and are able to address some of the upper level concerns like concurrency and place oriented programming. In general, however, there are many problems on this list where more complex type systems doesn't help, or even makes it worse.

[0] [https://twitter.com/stuarthalloway/status/926065084652228609](https://twitter.com/stuarthalloway/status/926065084652228609) [1] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V1FtfBDsLU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V1FtfBDsLU)

<comment><USER3> After watching that talk, I would have loved somebody in the audience to point out instance like this [https://raygun.com/blog/10-costly-software-errors- history/](https://raygun.com/blog/10-costly-software-errors-history/) and ask for Hickey's comments.

Needless to say I really don't agree with that list, as history shows the inconsistency, typos, lack basic units and the ability to express them in a computation etc., have been more catastrophic than he believes them to be. And these issues cannot really be fixed without a proper type system, that will not allow stuff like that to get into production.

And a good type system cannot be optional, e.g. clojure's spec, There are number of studies that show that will power, is not enough, there needs to be and environment - a type system - that helps to avoid and catch mistakes.

<comment><USER4> >After watching that talk, I would have loved somebody in the audience to point out instance like this [https://raygun.com/blog/10-costly-software- errors-history/](https://raygun.com/blog/10-costly-software-errors-history/) and ask for Hickey's comments. Needless to say I really don't agree with that list, as history shows the inconsistency, typos, lack basic units and the ability to express them in a computation etc., have been more catastrophic than he believes them to be.

From the list you cite, only three of 10 errors are caused by "typos", "lack of basic units" and type errors.

And this is just a particular list.

Recalling Rich Hickey list, the things that cause more problem in code, from worst to less damaging:

      Domain Complexity
      Misconception

      10x

      Place Oriented Programming
      Weak support for information
      Brittleness/Coupling
      Language model complexity
      Parochialism/context
      weak support for Names
      Distribution
      Resource utilization
      Runtime intangibility
      Libraries
      Concurrency

      10x

      Inconsistency
      Typos

I'm pretty sure that if we compile a list of real-life cases where the major reasons of failure according to Rich Hickey have caused trouble, the list of examples would be immense, compared to "typos".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I strongly recommend reading about the Julia type system, which has had a lot of thought put into it:

[https://docs.julialang.org/en/stable/manual/types/](https://docs.julialang.org/en/stable/manual/types/)

Although it's "untyped" (in the sense of the video), because it's _strongly_ typed, there are plenty of nonbrittle optimizations that are performed by the compiler on account of the type system, and the result is something that's often within 1~1.5x speed of C.

At the same time, I had to write my own numerical system and because of Julia's type system i could immediately plug it into the standard library's matrix algebra and fast fourier transform algorithms and do comparative analyses out of the box. You can even do exotic things -- I was testing some reed-solomon encoding and created a galois field type, and the standard library matrix solve algorithm worked out of the box on my custom type.

<comment><USER5> Addendum: Also really good is this video about how one should treat vectors and matrices in a type system.

Has good lessons for python, R, and Matlab. Seriously anyone who does anything with vectors should watch this.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2RO34b_oPM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2RO34b_oPM)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> There are a lot of smart, experienced, thoughtful developers who _know_ from experience that they are more productive using types. And there are smart, experienced, thoughtful developers who _know_ from experience that they are more productive _not_ using types. So something interesting is going on here. Obviously this is not a situation where one of those choices is "objectively correct". It is very likely that both groups are right. So what can we learn from this? Perhaps that it depends on the developer _and /or_ the kind of software they develop whether types make sense or not. It might also depend on how well the developer understands type systems and the kind of exposure they have had to them. I think THAT is a much more interesting conversation to have than the usual "my way is better than yours" typical conversation we have had SOOOOOOO many times.

<comment><USER7> I have yet to see reliable commentary from developers who used a good static type system for an extended period of time and still willingly prefer dynamic types. For instance, Rich Hickey makes fun of how long it takes to learn Haskell. I'm not aware of him having done significant work in anything better than Java.

<comment><USER8> I think Rich Hickey has significant experience with Haskell and there's at least one former Haskell user on HN who has transitioned to Clojure. I still don't quite get their point but I don't think they're speaking from ignorance.

<comment><USER7> What are you basing the assertion about Rich Hickey's haskell experience on? His github doesn't have any haskell code, for instance.

<comment><USER8> It was reported here by some Clojurists and I took their word for it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Didn't go through it all yet, but _its premise_ seems kind of off: you _can 't_ really discuss "types in isolation of the language"!

Just a basic example of two dynamic languages: In Python I can get a lot done and really don't _miss types at all._ In JS otoh, I feel lost until I pull in TypeScript to tame it, the language makes it even hard to _think clearly_ without types, like, "is that an object or a dict" or "is it a map? from what to what?" etc. For most usual programmer mistakes that would be type errors in typed language, Python still throws a meaningful and debuggable runtime error, whereas JS carries on an breaks much further from the cause of the problems, leaving you to debug WTF after WTF...

And static typing is great, as long as _it doesn 't require you to type variables and anonymous or small utility functions/methods_... eg. _it sucks without inference!_

Some languages work better with types, some don't gain much from them...

<comment><USER10> > In Python I can get a lot done and really don't miss types at all

No wonder, because Python _has_ types (well … most everything does; but Python isn't unityped [1]). It's even relatively strongly typed. It's just not _statically_ typed (what the video calls "typed").

That said, I _do_ miss static type checking in Python, and a lot of the tooling and methodology around Python (pylint, TDD…) are a direct consequence of that lack of static checking.

— You seem to be aware of this but the distinction between "has types" and "has static typing" is actually fairly important. APIs in general often take advantage of Python's extensible type system.

[1] See e.g. [https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/dynamic- lan...](https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/19/dynamic-languages- are-static-languages/)

<comment><USER11> Read the article again. He says Python _is_ unityped. The word "type" in mathematics and computer science has a meaning which is not the same as your usage of the word.

Well-typed programs should not go wrong. Python programs can crash at runtime due to simple type errors (expected integer but got a string). A crash is a crash, from a theoretical point of view it matters not that the error is prettier than a segmentation fault. Python is _not_ strongly typed, it just has good error messages.

<comment><USER10> Blah you're right. That's quite a serious oversight on my part, it's been too long since I've read that article and I had apparently forgotten its core idea.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Skimmed the video, and it's interesting.

I find the (implicit) premise that you might not already care about types hard to believe... Migrating a JavaScript project of any complexity to typescript almost always reveals errors "for free" because of the typing. Certainly any experience hacking on python would also teach you the lesson of declaring your types ahead of time.

Is this old-fashioned thinking? Are types the SQL of yesteryear (in the context of the crazy rush to "web scale" mongodb)?

<comment><USER13> For the most part I feel that for 99% of problems types just "get in my way".

It feels like I already know what is going to go in where, and having to type it is just a waste of time.

That said, when I have to work with APIs that can not guarantee their data integrity throwing in a quick @flow annotation of top of the file, and taking the time to write out what is optional has proven very valuable to make sure my functions, and subsequent code is not going to throw.

Another reason I like flow more is because I don't need to convonce my team to use it, I can just use it myself, and then delete it after I am done writing my code.

<comment><USER14> I think what you're talking about here is _static_ types getting in your way, not just types getting in your way.

Strong/weak types and dynamic/static types are really two different spectrums. People conflate strong types with static types and weak types with dynamic types, but they aren't really the same thing.

Static/dynamic just has to do with whether the types are checked at compile time or run time. Examples: Static: C, Haskell. Dynamic: Javascript, Python.

Weak/strong has to do with what kinds of checks the type system does. A strong type system is capable of checking a lot of different things for you. Static types are often stronger, but not always: for example, C is statically typed but its type system checks hardly anything: int* + int is perfectly valid. A list of programming languages from weakest-typed to strongest-typed might look something like: JavaScript, C, C++, Common Lisp, Perl, Scheme, Ruby, Python, Java, C#, OCaml, Haskell.

Static types are nice for projects which will grow large and where bugs are a big problem, but I think for the average HN person, static types aren't really necessary.

Strong types, on the other hand, are extremely useful. Even in a dynamically typed language, they aid in debugging a lot, because type errors occur much closer to where they're caused. In Python, for example, `"foo" \+ 42` immediately fails. But in JavaScript, you don't get an error until much later, perhaps when your webpage is mysteriously displaying "foo42".

Of course, there's a small cost to strong types: in the case where I actually do want to append a number to a string, I have to do `"foo" \+ str(42)`. But I think people tend to overstate this cost because it's visible. But if you look at the big picture, typing five extra characters takes a lot less time than debugging almost anything.

<comment><USER15> Strong/weak is generally not a useful distinction because it has no formal meaning. What you're probably after is "expressiveness" and "soundness". So C's type system is unsound and it's types are inexpressive. Haskell's type system is sound and moderately expressive. Agda's type system is sound and expressive.

<comment><USER14> > Strong/weak is generally not a useful distinction because it has no formal > meaning.

"This doesn't have a formal meaning, therefore it's not useful" is quite a logical leap you've got there.

I've got over a decade of professional programming experience in which "strong types" is a useful enough concept to help me do my job. "Soundness" certainly gives stronger guarantees, but it's more than I've needed.

I'm not aware of "expressiveness" having a formal meaning, but my informal definition has functioned for me so far.

<comment><USER15> > "This doesn't have a formal meaning, therefore it's not useful" is quite a > logical leap you've got there.

It means that everyone defines strong and weak in their own way, which has happened in every type system debate I've seen over the past 15 years.

> "Soundness" certainly gives stronger guarantees, but it's more than I've > needed.

Soundness is exactly the metric you need. Either you can rely on your type system not to lie to you, or you can't.

Programming language expressiveness means "Felleisen expressiveness". It's a metric approximated by source code compression, which is why the great programming shootout includes gzip metrics for source programs.

<comment><USER14> > It means that everyone defines strong and weak in their own way, which has > happened in every type system debate I've seen over the past 15 years.

Okay, that's fair. Part of the reason I gave examples and defined the spectrum I was talking about was to address this problem, because I know people don't necessarily know what I'm talking about.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> better audio: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVuEPwNuCHw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVuEPwNuCHw)

<comment><USER17> OP link should be replaced with this one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> The video is an okay discussion of type systems and the pro's and cons, but for me it didn't bring anything new to the table.

</comment><comment><USER19> I think a lot of problems with types could be avoided if the package management system / linking system required typing of imported functions, even if the actual language doesn't.

Maybe there'll be a "safe" subset of the pip/npm registry that will only let typed APIs in, to promote the concept.

As a side-note: is there data on how many dependencies there are of framework on npm, on average? If it's anywhere past two, I'd say that the extra time spent typing is more than compensated by the time saved by the user of the API.

</comment><comment><USER17> F __KING VOLUME WARNING !!!

This video will blow your f __king eardrums out because at the 4:37 minute mark, the presenter switches on his microphone system and the input source of the video changes to be about 400% what it was previously.

The fact that nobody has mentioned this is a pretty strong indication that none of these people have actually watched this video.</comment>


My Visa Debit card was suspended because of Digital Ocean - <AUTHOR>

Hi hackers,
Digital ocean now requires you add a credit card to activate your account and they make a test transaction ($1.23) to verify it. A day later, I got a call from my bank telling me that my cc is suspended to protect me against credit card fraud, and they wanted me to verify that transaction. I was not able to use my cc for 2 days.
I don't know what triggered their protection system, or which gateway they use to make these transactions, but just wanted to let you guys know. <comment><USER2> Most likely, this has nothing to do with Digital Ocean. Saying it's because of them is misleading and libelous. Credit card issuers all have risk management systems that flag transactions for review like this. It could be something like distance between you and the merchant, time of day you made the charge, or some other change in your buying patterns.

Having to call and verify a transaction to release the hold on the card takes just a minute and happens tens of thousands of times a day. I've never owned a credit card that I didn't have to do that with at least once, and it was never the merchant's fault or anything they had control over. It's also misleading to say your card was suspended when it was merely temporarily locked until you called.

<comment><AUTHOR> Well, It does not change the fact that my cc was suspended because of that transaction. And I am not saying it's DO's fault.

Though for me, this is an indication of trust issue between payment gateway and bank.

Edit: I am sure that DO's transaction fits perfectly in my spending patterns.

<comment><USER2> The primary purpose of these systems is to detect when a card has been stolen before you do, so that the bank (and you) can avoid the costly and time- consuming chargeback process, and you can avoid temporarily being out the funds the thief used. If they believe something about the transaction or series of transactions might indicate that your card is being used by someone other than yourself, then they flag it.

It doesn't indicate anything about trust of the merchant or their gateway. If you live in New Jersey, a purchase at Wal-Mart in Idaho will probably trigger a review. That's because the card issuer doesn't trust that the card is in your hands. It does not indicate, in any way, that they don't trust Wal-Mart or Wal-Mart's payment gateway. There would have been nothing Wal-Mart could do to avoid triggering that hold. To then go and warn people not to shop at Wal- Mart because it'll get your credit card suspended would be, well, unhelpful to say the least.

I doubt your bank knows what internet gateway the merchant uses at all, so that can't even be part of the equation. The bank is far separated from that during an authorization transaction:

        Merchant submits transaction:
        -> Payment gateway, i.e. authnet, paypal pro
        -> Front-end network, i.e. global payments east, tsys
        -> Back-end network, i.e. first data omaha, fnbo
        -> Association network, i.e. visa, mastercard
        -> Card issuer</comment></comment></comment>


Updates to eBay User Agreement (agreement to Arbitration unless you opt out) - <AUTHOR> http://announcements.ebay.com/2012/08/updates-to-the-ebay-user-agreement-and-privacy-policy-2/ <comment><AUTHOR> I got this agreement update in my email today, but there is no mention how to opt out of below.

 _"Unless you opt-out: (1) you will only be permitted to pursue claims against eBay on an individual basis, not as part of any class or representative action or proceeding and (2) you will only be permitted to seek relief (including monetary, injunctive, and declaratory relief) on an individual basis"_

is this standard?

<comment><USER2> Standard not to mention it? Not sure. But it's referenced in other places of the user agreement, see below. Pretty much exactly like the pay-pal opt-out.

Opt-Out Procedure IF YOU ARE A NEW EBAY USER, YOU CAN CHOOSE TO REJECT THIS AGREEMENT TO ARBITRATE ("OPT-OUT") BY MAILING US A WRITTEN OPT-OUT NOTICE ("OPT-OUT NOTICE"). THE OPT-OUT NOTICE MUST BE POSTMARKED NO LATER THAN 30 DAYS AFTER THE DATE YOU ACCEPT THE USER AGREEMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME. YOU MUST MAIL THE OPT-OUT NOTICE TO EBAY INC., ATTN: LITIGATION DEPARTMENT, 173 WEST ELECTION ROAD, DRAPER, UT 84020.

(from, <http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html>)</comment></comment>


Automatic email footers are legally useless - <AUTHOR> http://www.economist.com/node/18529895

<comment><USER2> It does seem like a footer along the lines of

 _This message is not intended as legal advice. I am not your lawyer._

added to emails from lawyers or other law firm employees casually discussing legal issues could prevent the accidental creation of an attorney/client relationship. Something similar might help prevent liability for medical professionals trying to be helpful.

Of course, the vast majority of these are pointless and annoying. It's not usually possible to impose any legal obligations on someone simply by sending them an email.

<comment><USER3> Actually in certain circumstances it can impose a legal obligation. For example, I'm licensed to sell real estate in California. As a real estate agent, I can create an agency relationship by giving advice in an email. This means that if someone acted on my advice and was harmed by it that they'd have the right to seek damages.

I believe attorneysand CPA's have the same obligation. Unless it is explicitly understood that advice given does not create an agency relationship or something to that effect.

<comment><USER2> You can impose a legal obligation on _yourself_ by sending an email, and that's what some of these footers are intended to avoid. I don't think you can impose a legal obligation on the _recipient_ of a message though.

<comment><USER3> True. I wonder if the same would apply if this disclosure/terms were placed as the header with something along the lines of "by continuing to read this email you hereby agree to the following...", similar to TOS on websites.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I wonder if people actually even notice an email footer these days or if they're ignored like most advertising. The only footers I ever notice are the ones that say "Sent from my iPhone [iPad]" but I'm biased and those are potential customers.

</comment><comment><USER4> Does anyone not already know this? I thought that even though people still do it, even they themselves realise it's futile, and they do it just because it can't do any harm.

</comment><comment><USER5> I don't think that such a case would rely on contract law. It would probably be based on the doctrine of confidence or possibly copyright law.

But like many things in life, it's a legal bluff. Just like those signs in parking lots that say "we accept no responsibility for damage". They're a legal bluff - the car park is a bailee and has to take responsibility if you push them on it.

Now it's time for _my_ standard disclaimer:

        * I am not a lawyer
        * This is not legal advice
        * Your jurisdiction's laws may vary
        * Seek professional legal advice before doing anything, anywhere, at any time</comment>


Settlement in George Hotz Case - <AUTHOR> http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/11/settlement-in-george-hotz-case/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=george_hotz_041111 <comment><USER2> From geohot's website:

> What if SCEA tries to settle?

> Lets just say, I want the settlement terms to include OtherOS on all PS3s > and an apology on the PlayStation blog for ever removing it. It'd be good PR > for Sony too, lord knows they could use it. I'm also willing to accept a > trade, a legit path to homebrew for knowledge of how to stop new firmwares > from being decrypted.

I wonder if any of those terms were met?

<comment><USER3> Not a chance. Most likely Hotz realized what he was in for if he stuck it out long haul and decided it was worth having a life and a job instead.

It's really unfortunate for everyone that it ended this way.

<comment><USER4> This still looks like a win for geohot though. Unless there is something missing from the agreement, a 'permanent injuction' on one person hosting information that has already spread virally is basically worthless to sony.

I'm sure his idealism faded sitting on the wrong side of a table of lawyers, though.

<comment><USER5> "This still looks like a win for geohot though."

What part of it, exactly?

<comment><USER6> The part where he doesn't have to pay Sony millions of dollars in damages.

<comment><USER7> You could say the same thing about all the people who settle with the RIAA then.

<comment><USER6> Trials are never a sure thing, especially when the other side has deeper pockets, and especially when the laws at issue are so messed up.

Hotz gets out of this with his fame and bank account intact, his hack is already out there, and Sony's still defending against a class-action lawsuit that has the potential to restore OtherOS functionality for everybody else and force Sony to pay damages. The only limitation on Hotz is that he can't do it again to the same company, but he probably won't need to since he's already got root for his PS3.

This settlement is a cease-fire that neither side will want to violate, and Sony didn't get any of what they wanted. (They didn't even make an example of Hotz to scare off other hackers!) It's definitely a win for Hotz, and it's not a loss for the rest of us.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The comments on this blog entry scare me. Fanboyism and groupthink pushed to the limit.

EDIT: ah well, I see that this opinion is shared. It kind of cheers me up. Kind of.

<comment><USER9> Many of the commenters at Ars Technica (which has been following this story closely) have similar opinions of Sony and of Mr. Hotz.

Those praising the actions of Sony don't seem to understand any of the larger issues here. It doesn't matter to them that free inquiry is being destroyed in order to shield the embarrassing secrets of a huge corporation from public view, as long as they can boot up their game console and play their shiny new video game without any inconvenience.

<comment><USER10> can we blame them?

<comment><USER11> For what? Their own lack of perspective?

Interesting to see, however, that the side people take is an efficient indicator of their intelligence level - not as in IQ, but as in CIA (on its better days).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> What can't believe are the comments on that page. Are people really that eager to praise their "overlords" in the name of "better gaming"? But can there really be that many trolls?

The scary part is that these are most likely real people, who like their control and surveillance just fine, and are the majority. Which means we will probably see a completely locked down internet sooner or later.

<comment><USER13> They are 14 year old playstation fanboys, who have a religious devotion to their console brand of choice. This stems from the teenage search for identity. Having made violently strong cases for their favoured console in arguments with their friends at school, they are now ideologically wedded to this position and unable to deviate from it one iota for fear of the inconsistency being seen as weakness, and more importantly, of it undermining their own fragile sense of who they are: a Playstation Fan.

It's basically a microcosm of partisan politics. Don't worry too much about it.

EDIT: Alternatively they could be very lazy astroturfers.

EDIT2: The comparison of console wars to partisan politics has raised another question that I've never considered before: what will happen in a few decades time when the children of people who have themselves been gaming since childhood reach their teen years? Will we see similar patterns to politics, where children tend to inherit their views from their parents without question? Will parents war with their children over their opposing views on gaming?

 _"This family has played nintendo for four generations! I'll be damned if any son of mine is going to play an xbox 1080 under my roof!"_

<comment><USER14> Regarding your second edit, it's not as if brand loyalty is some amazing emergent phenomenon in the 14-year-old-game-console-consumer-ecosystem. People are just as loyal to brands of operating systems, cars, banks, food, pants, cigarettes, useful pocket tools, kitchenware, and high-efficiency toilets, and they've been so forever.

<comment><USER13> You are right. The difference between consoles and the rest of those product categories is that people do not typically have them as a core part of their identity in the way that children often do with video games, and the way that many people do with political parties. Well, maybe they do for operating systems.

However, while politics remains a defining factor in peoples views of themselves well into adulthood and parenthood, console/OS choice does not.

Those people for whom it does are probably less likely to breed so the effect will likely not be measurable.

<comment><USER15> Ford and John Deere are two brands that I believe have been integrated into the identity of some. I'm trying to think of other examples, news, maybe beverages? coke&pepsi is now obvious to me, others are harder. I guess apple/google/microsoft is the only other I can find.

<comment><USER16> Canon vs. Nikon cameras?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> George Hotz is not telling much either for the moment [http://geohotgotsued.blogspot.com/2011/04/joining-sony- boyco...](http://geohotgotsued.blogspot.com/2011/04/joining-sony-boycott.html)

<comment><USER18> The final judgement has been posted at psx-scene.com:

[http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/settlement-george-hotz-case-8...](http://psx- scene.com/forums/f6/settlement-george-hotz-case-84881/)

Note that this does not include the confidential memorandum of understanding (page 1, line 20), which would contain the meat of what was actually agreed to by both parties.

<comment><USER19> Wikileaks, where are you?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> _sigh_ "Hey George. We're your new corporate overlords, telling you to keep quiet about PS3_CONSTANT_ENCRYPTION_KEY." "Ok, can we talk?"

"We'll see you in court." "Shit."

Time passes...

"Hey Sony, here's a ton of money, leave me alone." "Ok."

I cannot express how disappointed I am in this result.

<comment><USER6> There's no evidence that Hotz had to pay Sony _anything_ as part of this settlement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> " _Sony is glad to put this litigation behind us," said Riley Russell, General Counsel for SCEA._ "

likely because they realized they were being dipshits half way through. glad this case is over and i can't believe it wasted so much time. my respect and empathy goes to hotz; i'm sure his past few months were miserable.

</comment><comment><USER22> Is their case against fail0verflow, who found most of the vulnerabilities geohot actually used to jailbreak it (and re-ported Linux, for example), still on? There's not many details in this post or anywhere else online.

<comment><USER23> Sony also dismissed the case against the rest of the defendants (f0f members included). It looked like Sony didn't bother to go after any defendant but geohot after they filed the case. However, SCEE is still suing Alexander Egorenkov (graf_chokolo) in Germany to the tune of 1,000,000 Euro.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I wonder what the 'permanent injunction' prevents him from doing?

Having been in similar situations in court facing virtually unlimited legal budgets and opposing counsel focused on PR victories I can understand why geohotz settled, however, the wording of the statement tells me that the permanent injunction agreed to actually doesn't prevent much otherwise it would be more heavily touted.

I have a feeling this statement "a preliminary injunction was issued requiring Hotz to take down the postings challenged by SCEA." reveals that the injunction was to permanently remove the postings. (eg. Hotz won!)

<comment><USER25> It prevents him from doing whatever's in the injunction order.

... Which is under seal, and will only ever be seen by the parties in the case, the Court clerk, and the Judge.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Sucks. He should have gone down the road, fighting for his rights to _legally_ hack the PS3.

<comment><USER27> Yeah but at the same time it's not just him that should have to deal with all the trouble that fighting would have caused him. Sometimes you have to pick your fights.

<comment><USER28> Too bad, because he seemed to be winning and he had enough public support to take the fight as far as he wanted. He could have made an example of Sony. They will likely choose someone more vulnerable for their next victim.

<comment><USER29> "seemed to be winning"

What do you base that on, community support? Some initial faintly favourable legal maneuvers? A specific turn of phrase in a legal book would have decided this in the end. And then been appealed, multiple times.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I wonder how much the anonymous pressure weighed on their decision for a quick settlement?

<comment><USER5> Given the terms, probably 0.

<comment><USER31> what are the terms? (you talk as if you know them; i can't find any info anywhere)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Does this mean my donation to his 'defense fund' was actually paid to Sony as part of the settlement?

<comment><USER33> That assumes he paid Sony something, which isn't necessarily true. Given the way things were going, I personally feel that the impetus to settle came from Sony's side, knowing they had a weak case.

It's too bad we don't know all the terms.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Meh, PS3 is the last console I'll ever buy. I guess for Sony this is a Pyrrhic victory. What they have done is gone out of their way to prove that no, you don't own that box. You bought a box and we can change the contents.

</comment><comment><USER35> "Our motivation for bringing this litigation was to protect our intellectual property _and our consumers._ "

Yeah, right. I just hope that any manufacturers of the stuff I own will refrain from "protecting" me in a similar way.

</comment><comment><USER36> For me, the damage to Sony has already been done. I will never buy another Sony product as long as I live.

</comment><comment><USER37> It seems the settlement documents are available on psx-scene.com

<comment><USER38> I skimmed it - It's boring. From my reading, George can't hack any more Sony products or talk about hacking Sony products, or direct anyone to talk about hacking Sony products. No money, No promises (though there is some talk about where they promise to sue each other if they do this again). That's it.

<comment><USER18> This is the important part of what you've read:

        19 On March 31,2011, Hotz met with SCEA representatives and the Parties entered
        20 a confidential Memorandum of Understanding, agreeing to settle the dispute between
        21 them.

There's another document (that won't be revealed unless someone leaks it) that details what was actually agreed to.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Any details on the settlement?

<comment><USER40> Most probably the settlement includes a clause not to talk about the settlement. Also, the second clause of the club^Wsettlement is... well you get the point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I wonder if the recent Anonymous attacks, specifically on Howard Stringer's family, had anything to do with this.

</comment><comment><USER42> It almost seems like the the sony comments are filtered to only display pro sony comments. Its sad to see so many people cheer for sony.

</comment><comment><USER7> The comments on that post seem awfully one-sided.

</comment><comment><USER43> GeoHot raised arms for a battle. George Hotz exited through the alley.

</comment><comment><USER19> Where's the beef? There are no real details.

</comment><comment><USER44> Final judgement with more details if anyone's interested, kinda disappointing actually.

<http://goo.gl/NAvNl>

<comment><USER45> Normal link [PDF]: [http://psx- scene.com/forums/attachments/f6/26802-settlement-...](http://psx- scene.com/forums/attachments/f6/26802-settlement-george-hotz- case-127-stipulation.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> ka...wha?! I want my money back! I didnt support him so he can settle?!

<comment><USER47> But you donated to a legal defense fund. You may have hoped for a different outcome, but the fund was for the defense of the individual, and in this case settlement was likely the best defense.

But maybe he promised not to settle in soliciting donations, all I see is a blog post saying here is a legal defense fund. And even if he said he would demand certain things, the fact remains that he was defending himself and has to make the right call.

<comment><USER46> No the fund was not for the defence of an individual. You assume that the defence was for an individual and not a community. (from geohot.com) "Together, we can help fix the system". Hardly sounds self serving does it? The community rallied because it was largely felt that an attack on GH was an attack on all of us. I may have reconsidered my donation if GH had said "Together we can help save my ass"

<comment><USER48> You could have gone to the courthouse in California and announced yourself as one of the Does who wished to be represented fairly in court if you felt that this court case involved you just as much as it involved him.

In another context, GeoHot saying "Together, we ..." is much like his saying "if you want your console to be secure get in touch with me, any of you 3", and SCEA interpreting that as extorsion. If anything, it goes to prove that GeoHot is not an English major and has difficulty being succinct and direct in writing. Assuming that he actually is going to band the community together to "stick it to the man" is fairly naive. He was the one being sued, and his number one priority was to stay out of jail and not get his paycheck garnished for the next 65 years.

<comment><USER45> _You could have gone to the courthouse in California and announced yourself as one of the Does who wished to be represented fairly in court_

Very interesting, I didn't know this was possible. Are there any cases when people did this that I can read about? Thanks!</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google and Facebook Team Up to Open Source the Gear Behind Their Empires - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/2016/03/google-facebook-designing-open-source-data-center-gear-together/ <comment><USER2> Not only Google and Facebook [1]:

Facebook, Intel, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Rackspace, Cisco, Juniper Networks, Goldman Sachs, Fidelity, Lenovo and Bank of America

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Compute_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Compute_Project)</comment>