Lobsters and Crabs Feel Pain, Study Shows - <AUTHOR> http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/27/crab-lobster-pain.html <comment><USER2> Wait. You mean people thought they _didn't_?

I'm not at all experienced in the realm of animal activism as it relates to lobsters and crabs, but did people _really_ think that animals didn't feel something akin to pain if you ripped their limbs off? Pain is a vital mechanism/motivation for survival and thus evolutionarily advantageous. Maybe some complex animals don't have it, but they'd have to be pretty weird (although I admit, lobsters and crabs would be in the right category-- it's not going to be a vertebrate that feels no pain-- they aren't particularly unique in terms of how they grow and die).

<comment><USER3> You don't need pain if you can't learn from it. If your environment is stable enough that you can operate entirely by innate reflex, there's no reason to waste genetic selection pressure on crafting sensations for the benefit of some passive, ineffectual observer inside the lobster. Or the observer itself, for that matter. Its almost certainly true that lobsters feel pain (response to analgesics is damn convincing), but it isn't obviously true without evidence like this study.

<comment><USER4> > _It may well be true that lobsters feel pain, but it isn't obviously true > without evidence like this._

Then at best the evidence is inconclusive. This is usually an issue that is trotted out as 'fact' a lot when it comes to debates about boiling lobsters/crabs alive for food. So really the 'general knowledge' of this should be:

      We don't know whether or not lobsters and crabs feel pain.

and not:

      We know for sure that crabs and lobsters don't feel pain,
      because if they did, then I would feel bad about going
      to Red Lobster for dinner.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> It has always bugged me that some people boil live crabs and lobsters: I have seen them struggling to get out of the water. Quickly cutting out their brain stems and then tossing them in the water seems better.

That said, anyone who has seen live pigs piled 20+ feet deep in a pre-killing pen may think about being a vegetarian. The look of total fear in their eyes is difficult to forget. My wife and I had the misfortune of seeing that one time and we could not bring ourselves to eat any meat for a long time.

<comment><USER6> I think it's more than some people, unfortunately. It's probably the de facto way.

"One can measure the greatness and the moral progress of a nation by looking at how it treats its animals" - Mahatma Gandhi

Most nations do poorly on this test, although there is slow progress. The funny thing is, at least 7 out of 10 people would not be happy with factory farming practices, but they still dominate agriculture in this country. It deeply troubles me that you can keep pigs in pens where they cannot even turn around, even though they're about as intelligent as dogs. Other animals can be equally as unlucky.

<comment><USER7> It's a bit off topic, but that is not actually a good way to measure a nation.

Holocaust survivors describe how dogs were treated well, and there were laws protecting them and other animals.

A much better way to measure that, is seeing how the nation treats it's prisoners.

<comment><USER8> I think you are missing the point. Nazi Germany was by no means a vegetarian country. I think a better question to ask would be - could the Holocaust have happened in the mostly-vegetarian India? Millions of people were murdered under the pretense that these people are pigs or rats. But what if your culture (e.g. Hinduism or whatever) also condemns the killing of pigs and rats? The entire argument that justifies murdering these people breaks down.

<comment><USER9> India long had a caste system. Do you argue that the long-standing violence and discrimination against "untouchables" could not have led to a genocide the way long-standing anti-Semitism in Europe did?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> In addition to Wallace's _Consider the Lobster_ I'd very much recommend Baggini's _The Pig That Wants to Be Eaten_ (review here: [http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2007/04/review-pig-that- wants...](http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2007/04/review-pig-that-wants-to-be- eaten.html)) for a deeper dive into this problem. The title essay's premise is this:

As a thought experiment assume that a lobster is genetically modified to think that it's sole purpose is to be eaten. Is it still morally wrong to eat that animal? For less far fetched examples (and moving somewhat tangentially), consider the people in _The Matrix_ , who are happy in their deception or Frenchwomen who insist that wearing burkas liberate them. They are happy that way. Should we still impose our attitudes on them? What would you do if you met a worshiper of the Crocodile God, who craves the honor of being thrown alive into the pit (that last example is from Bach's _Illusions_ ).

<comment><USER11> There was an animal exactly like this being served at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe in the _Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ series.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> A great read from David Foster Wallace, "Consider the Lobster" from Gourmet magazine

[http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_l...](http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/2000s/2004/08/consider_the_lobster?printable=true&currentPage=9)

</comment><comment><USER13> People ripped the legs off of live crabs? That's sick whether or not they can feel pain.

<comment><USER14> Is it really? I am asking this as a genuine question. I am quite sure our ancestors did this. In fact, in many cultures, food is eaten alive and wriggling. How is this any different? Is it really "sick" to kill something slower (ripping the legs off), rather than faster (cutting its oxygen supply, eviscerating it, etc)?

<comment><USER13> I'm not aware of any reason to have the animal alive while you're breaking off its limbs. It just seems like the behavior of a sociopath to me.

<comment><USER7> It's law number 6 of the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_laws>

> I am quite sure our ancestors did this.

Presumably some did and that's why the Noahide laws address this issue. And clearly some ancestors agreed it was a bad thing - and not just a little bad, but bad enough that it was listed in the core set of laws.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> "And finally, the researchers wrote, crustaceans possess 'high cognitive ability and sentience.'"

Wow, did they just jump to that conclusion based on pain aversion behavior or is there some kind of evidence to support this? It's quite a stretch.

<comment><USER16> I think your and their definition of "high cognitive ability and sentience" may not be the same.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Is there a quick, painless alternative though? Can't really decapitate or bleed out a heavily armored invertebrate. Maybe drown them in wine or spirits?

</comment><comment><USER18> I work with invertebrate sensory neurons (neuroscientist here). For a starter, check out the pick pocket neurons in Dan Tracey's paper ("nociceptive" means pain receptors): [http://www.cell.com/current- biology/abstract/S0960-9822(07)0...](http://www.cell.com/current- biology/abstract/S0960-9822\(07\)02268-3)</comment>


Helium kills iPhones: MEMs oscillator sensitivity to helium [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvzWaVvB908 <comment><USER2> This is the inevitable follow up to this:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/9mk2o7/mri_disabl...](https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/9mk2o7/mri_disabled_every_ios_device_in_facility/)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> This makes me wonder if someone could somehow silently inject helium in a room to kill all phones (iPhone only?) for malicious purposes

<comment><USER3> I'd just like to point out, for folks who are thinking of trying this at home, that in addition to killing iPhones, helium has been known to kill people: [https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/inhaling-gas- from-h...](https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/inhaling-gas-from-helium- balloons-no-laughing-matter-it-can-kill/news- story/4126938014edcc1cac02ae8c7ca2de83)

<comment><USER4> Helium doesn't kill people, lack of oxygen kills people. Helium also doesn't stay in the same place for long - it is too lightweight to even stay in the atmosphere. Any helium released in a room will immediately float upwards and rapidly be gone forever.

For someone to die using helium, they would literally have to first find pure helium (which isn't sold at party stores any more - helium is mixed with oxygen) and pump it into a plastic bag over their head with the bag sealed (because it will come off when you pass out, you will breath in oxygen, then wake up).

<comment><USER5> > Helium doesn't kill people, lack of oxygen kills people.

Helium embolism can kill people. Due to helium's permeability, it can travel through tissues and into the blood stream. Helium gas bubbles form in the bloodstream, preventing the flow of blood.

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S134462231...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1344622317302717)

<comment><USER6> Divers routinely breathe >90% helium mixes with no ill effects provided they ascend and descend at the proper rates. I very much doubt that helium embolism is a real phenomenon at normal atmospheric pressures. More likely that article is just completely wrong based on misinterpreting postmortem changes.

<comment><USER5> If one is breathing helium directly from a pressurised tank, one can be inhaling it at higher than normal atmospheric pressure.

Divers control the pressure at which the diving gas is being delivered. A person who is breathing helium directly from a tank, either for misguided recreational reasons or with suicidal intent, is unlikely to be doing that.

The original suggestion – of adding helium to a room in order to damage iPhones – unless the room is pressurised, it is going to be at normal atmospheric pressure, so asphyxiation is a far greater risk than embolism. But, the point remains, inhaling helium is actually a lot more risky than many people think, sometimes it kills.

[https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest- news/index.ssf/...](https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest- news/index.ssf/2012/02/parents_of_eagle_point_girl_wh.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Previously discussed: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18340693](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18340693)

</comment><comment><USER7> This would make a great plot device for a murder mystery story.</comment>


Richard Dawkins interviews Derren Brown [video] - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8-UTM <comment><USER2> Prof. Dawkins is possibly one of the few sane people left on this planet. Cool video.</comment>


Room in Cloud Storage for a Canadian based provider? - <AUTHOR>

Do you think the cloud storage market has room or justification for a Canadian based provider? Some colleagues and I are in the process of developing a cloud architecture that let's us undercut Amazon EC2 by ~50% and turn a significant profit, while remaining Canadian owned/operated and based.
We think one of our advantages is the fact that our servers would be in Canada and so, more sheltered from the Patriot Act, among other things.
What are your thoughts? <comment><USER2> If it's as good as EC2 and cheaper no-one should care if it's Canadian.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's fair. Will being Canadian serve as an incentive at all?</comment></comment>


The iPad is a Personal Computer—true or false? - <AUTHOR> http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2011/08/the-ipad-is-a-personal-computer-true-or-false.ars <comment><USER2> True in that it's personal, and a computing device. The most basic definition is: "A microcomputer designed for use by one person at a time"

But really I'd say FALSE if you're more specific and think of a "personal computer" as the IBM-standard set in the 1980s and 1990s. My first computer I remember was when my parents bought an Apple IIGS (fifth in the Apple II series and not like an IBM, I know!) and that, for me was a personal computer. The iPod seems more like a "personal entertainment device".

</comment><comment><USER3> I agree. The iPad is a PC...sort of. Unfortunately we've come to determine that the desktop and the laptop as representative of personal computing. It's not. Computers were meant to be for the professionals (IT), not for everyone e;se. This includes Office people. The 'PC' was meant as an appliance.

I can't say when this change will exactly occur (maybe 3-4 years?) but no one wants the 'PC'. They want simplicity. The modern PC does not offer this.</comment>


Ex-US attorney charged with trying to sell whistleblower info to SV firm - <AUTHOR> http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/02/08/sunnyvale-ex-justice-dept-attorney-charged-with-peddling-protected-court-docs/ <comment><USER2> Another with more detail :

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-08/akin- gump...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-02-08/akin-gump-lawyer- accused-of-trying-to-sell-lawsuit-under-seal)</comment>


New 100W USB 3.0 Spec Can Charge Laptops - <AUTHOR> http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/usb-3-0-power-delivery-charging-86983 <comment><USER3> I'd be careful with these; it means you can't plug in an untrusted power supply anymore.

Just imagine one of these cables also acting as a USB keyboard, which brings up a new terminal, adds an SSH authorized key and closes the terminal window without you even seeing it.

<comment><USER4> And Thunderbolt is already dangerous, given that it's essentially just serialised PCI Express (so you've got a free view into RAM).

<comment> X-Istence There is security against that, you can limit access for thunderbolt devices to various parts of memory, same as you could with Firewire. Thunderbolt is not anymore insecure than Firewire for instance.

<comment><USER5> There is the ability to protect memory from malicious devices with IOMMU, but it is often disabled by default. My experience with DMA attacks via Firewire or Thunderbolt is that they work out of the box.

Inception is a nice tool to play with if you want to try out DMA attacks: <http://www.breaknenter.org/projects/inception/>

You may also want to check out the Volatility forensics framework: <http://code.google.com/p/volatility/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I have done research on this topic, it is a standard, not ratisfied yet, and no way your old usb cables can take 100watt power(voltage/amperage), also wall sockets need standards, which is not there yet.

there are other working powered USB implementations available <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_USB>

<comment><USER7> The example you cited doesn't even use the same connector. Furthermore, the support of Intel and Microsoft is basically a sure-shot that we'll see an implementation. There's skepticism, and then there's just silliness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is awesome, being able to charge everything from a single power plug is a total dream. But it'd mean losing MagSafe and I can't see Apple going down that route.

<comment><USER9> Just use an adapter, apple customers seems to love those.

<comment><USER10> > apple customers seems to love those

Er, Apple designers seem to love those.

<comment><USER11> _> Er, Apple designers seem to love those._

Stockholders should too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> USB is slowly approaching "single cable" solution. By adding power, USB3 and Thunderbolt are two differentiated solutions moving towards a similar goal.

<comment><USER13> While they are both "single cable" solutions, their differences give them different uses. Currently there are lots of cheap USB gadgets, and you probably have lots of USB cables floating around your house. Thunderbolt uses active cables, which means the cables contain hardware to code the signal specially for that cable. This allows much better guarantees of throughput, while making cables much more expensive. With this in mind, I think we are likely to see thunderbolt used in more 'dedicated' scenarios, like removable harddrives, displays, and printers. Daisy chaining means you don't need many ports either.

On the other hand, USB cables are cheap, but have less guarantees on throughput. In fact, since many ports could be on one hub, you can't even use all ports to there maximum potential. USB is likely to stay in its current position for the foreseeable future though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> It is very interesting to see the group move to a switchable voltage, expecting to support 5V, 12V and 20V. My first reaction was 'oh no.. going to fry some 5V electronics with 20V' but if all the negotiation is done right - and not too easy to spoof it should keep people from building cheap adapters to go inline, request the wrong voltage and fry things.

The voltages are a nice choice.

5V: backwards compatibility. Everything is 5V.

12V: same as your car - lots of things run on 12V. It is easier to build a step down converter than a step up. so that gives the hackers some options.

20V: It was genius of them to step up to 20V. as others have pointed out, charging a laptop (often 17-20VDC required) is perfect. This is also a good choice for keeping the conductor size small in the cable. We get to 100W (wow).

now if you really want to be forward thinking, maybe look at the way electronics have moved from 12V, to 5V, and then to 3.3V. If they want this to be super portable for future use, maybe put in 3.3V - although I can't think of what it would be used for right off.

<comment><USER15> 3.3V and 1.8V are often used as VCC in embedded processors, and they're the ranges for hard drives & RAM. If you're dealing with those low powered devices, there's usually a dirt-cheap and tiny DC-DC converter on-board. And you're not going to see anything high-powered enough to use these voltages, I don't think.

RE: 12V. Your car's voltage supply has huge margins (ripple, DC offset, etc), but in general - sure.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> As the wireless networks are easier to use, technology that was built for data transfer is now used for power. I would call that cable USC (Universal Serial Charger). It looks like a standardization of a power adapter, but I don't think we can call it USB, as the "serial" part will not be really used. Profiles 4 and 5 would need special power sources, so you cannot just plug your laptop in a simple desktop (or another laptop) and get 100W of power, so you'll get a brick adapter with an USB plug instead of a custom plug - <USER2> most cellphones. But I would not expect the brick to use the initial USB function (data transfer).

This also means that the cheap Chinese USB power bricks will be even more dangerous.

</comment><comment><USER17> It would be unbelievably cool to be able to walk into an office with a laptop, and only have to roll out a USB cable from the desk in order to charge it. If there was some way of combining this with an ethernet port, all my prayers would be answered!

<comment><USER18> That is the basic idea behind docking stations

<comment><USER19> Yep, and the reason they work so well is that everybody has the exact same model laptop.

I couldn't care less what the standard is, as long as it's a standard and everybody uses it. 400-pin docking station connectors are not standard, and pity the fool who tries to change that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> 20v@5a! Nice! I can't wait to see USB ports instead of the 13.8v ports we currently have in cars.

Sadly my 170w laptop still would need a separate adapter.

<comment><USER21> > instead of the 13.8v ports we currently have in cars.

That's a bit too much precision for that standard. It's only ~13.8 V when your car is running and the alternator is charging the battery. When the car is off, it'll be 13 V or slightly less.

<comment><USER22> And even when it's running, you have to expect up to at least 16V, some of the cars and trucks with larger alternators will run a bit higher, I've seen 15V myself but I've always heard that 16V is what to expect.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm curious if USB could be turning into the next electrical socket. Imagine if everything you plugged into a wall outlet used USB. Not only would it probably be safer, but it would probably mean the end of country-specific electrical adapters. Outlets like this are already becoming popular: [http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet- Chargi...](http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet- Charging/dp/B0065I114K)

<comment><USER24> Probably not. The 5v ones can't deliver enough power to do much, and if you have 20v you might as well have 120v - you anyway need to convert the voltage to whatever you use internally, and with 120v the wires are 1/5 the size (thickness).

<comment><USER25> I find that argument suspect when I look at all the laptops that run on 19 volts. Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v. Most computing things love the 12 volt range, my screen uses 19 volts, a fancy light bulb is either LED and low voltage or CFL and gets no benefit from 120.

Higher voltage is better for distribution and for very high power loads (including heaters). But a lot of things like low voltage.

<comment><USER24> > Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v.

Why do you say that? Look at any USB charging plug - very simple inside. You only need "messy" electronics for high power or high (above 80%) efficiency.

Basically you would need 20v -> 5v vs 120v -> 5v - there isn't really a lot of difference. (There is some, but not enough to make changing everything worthwhile.)

Also, the double conversion isn't great (you would need a power supply in each plug), assuming typical 80% power supplies you would end up with end to end 64% efficiency.

<comment><USER25> Having a centralized efficient 20v transformer could actually lead to better efficiency overall. A low voltage DC-DC converter can be far above 80% efficiency without any fancy components.

And when I called 120v adapters messy I meant for the kind of thing I see that runs off 20v. Relatively high-powered computers and game consoles and monitors.

<comment><USER24> A centralized transformer wouldn't work well. First you would have to run a lot of very fat wires in order to serve all the outlets.

But worse, power supplies have an optimum efficiency, usually at around the 75% usage point. If you have a power supply large enough to power everything, it's not efficient enough to power just a few things.

> And when I called 120v adapters messy I meant for the kind of thing I see > that runs off 20v. Relatively high-powered computers and game consoles and > monitors.

And I still don't see what's messy about it. Those things would anyway need a power supply to convert the 20v to whatever they use. You could just as easily put in a 120v power supply (and use thinner wires).

<comment><USER25> Those things tend to have bulky external power supplies that transform 120 volts into 20. 'whatever they use' is _already_ 20 volts, with minimal internal components to get any other levels. You'd be able to eliminate a lot of awkward transformers.

It's probably not worth wiring a whole house with fat wires but in theory having nice safe universal plugs without dealing with external transformers would be nice.

I'm sure if someone wanted to design a supply that's efficient at different currents they could. Worst case would be 2-3 different supplies glued together with a management chip.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Expect a new class of cheap USB gadgets in the future. USB powered microwave oven. There's a lot of toasty cheese melting power in 20 volts and 5 amps. There's going to be some patents filed...

<comment><USER27> Way ahead of you <https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/fundue.shtml> :) (try the buy now button)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> The duplex power is interesting. Let's say you've got a fully-charged phone (or similar). Would you be able to use it as a battery instead of charging it?

</comment><comment><USER28> picture of the new cable:

[http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb- stand...](http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb-standard- will-deliver-100w-power/)

<comment><USER29> That is a picture of a standard USB 3.0 A to B cable. Ex. [http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable- Feet...](http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable- Feet/dp/B002UHJ1II)

<comment><USER24> No it's not. Look at the plastic "tongue" in the middle of it - it was pierced and they put the power connectors inside it.

<comment><USER29> Um, yes it is. How about the fact that that particular image is at least 3 years old?

here is an article from nov 2009 [http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel- no-desarrollara-el...](http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel-no- desarrollara-el-estandar-usb-3-0-hasta-2011/)

and many more [http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bc...](http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bcb23db5241/)

<comment><USER24> Seems you're right.

But that makes me wonder where they are adding the pins, there doesn't seem to be room (unless it's inside the connector, with two rows of pins).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Is the USB 3.0 still held by Intel?</comment>


The Internet Trolls the FBI's "Private" Bitcoin Wallet - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2013/10/07/as-feds-fumble-with-bitcoin-the-internet-trolls-the-fbis-private-wallet/ <comment><USER2> Notes that are only visible to people looking at a certain address on a certain website, nowhere else. I truly do not think this it at all newsworthy.

"Public notes" are a construction of blockchain.info—despite the confusing name—they are most certainly not part of the actual Bitcoin blockchain.

<comment><USER3> Bitcoin does have the ability to store this kind of information in the actual blockchain, but blockchain.info decided it was not worth the bloat.

[http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7864/is-a- public-...](http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/7864/is-a-public- message-at-blockchain-info-embedded-in-the-actual-block-chain)

<comment><USER2> That's incorrect. You can shoehorn your data in, and blockchain.info tried for a period, but removed it when it drew the ire of almost every core developer. It just wastes space and bloats the unspent outputs database.

<comment><USER4> Good to hear. Bitcoin already occupied 5-8GB last time I fired my client up, many moons ago.

<comment><USER2> 13GB with indexes now. If it's an issue, just use an SPV client like MultiBit that doesn't store the blockchain at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Just want to point out this bullshit comment at the end, "the currency itself has fallen from a high of $260 to about $130 this morning".

The author is trying to make it sound like Silk Road dropped the price drastically. No, 260 was the high point early this year. The value has been relatively stable between $80 and $140 since then.

<comment><USER6> No, the author isnt. This is the full quote: "The price after the Silk Road seizure has remained fairly constant but the currency itself has fallen from a high of $260 to about $130 this morning."

It is a horrible worded statement as it doesnt specify the time frame within which the price fell from 260 to 130, but they clearly state it has been stable since the SR seizure

<comment><USER7> It has to be said: geuis appears to have deliberately doctored that quote to provoke argument. The first half of the sentence directly contradicts the claim about the second.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> If it's possible (seemingly trivial?) to determine that any given individual is possession of a bitcoin at any given time, then... uh...

How is bitcoin an " _anonymous_ " cryptocurrency?

I mean, I feel kind of stupid for even asking such a question, but given the circumstances, wouldn't that be an exceptionally important detail?

Based on all these second-hand accounts that I read about, sometimes written by journalists with an amateurish technical competency (which, by proxy, also renders me an amateur), it sounds like bitcoins are about as anonymous as an AOL e-mail addresses, or prepaid cellular phones.

It doesn't seem like they were actually conceived an anonymous system, but rather that some people devised processes through which they could produce an effective anonymity with transactions carried this instrument.

The cryptographic aspect of bitcoins seems to be geared only in favor of authenticity, and not anonymity. Were bitcoins ever conceived with true anonymity in mind? Are these revelations of identity just, due to elaborate and highly technical side-channel attacks?

Am I wrong in my perception that bitcoins seem to be an object where it's only happenstance that you can craft an anonymous position? ...that they are actually only offer pseudonymity?

<comment><USER9> Here's an analogy: every bill in your wallet has a unique serial number on it, right? Every bank account also has a unique ID number. Imagine that every wallet and cash register also has a unique ID. Now imagine that there's a shared database that gets a new entry every time a bill moves from one place to another where the entry just says "bill #X moved from location #Y to location #Z."

If you're careful, and you don't let anyone know the ID of your wallet or your bank account, then it doesn't matter if someone knows the transactions that involve your bills because no one knows that they're yours. Your anonymity doesn't break down until someone can tie one of those account numbers to you: by asking your bank for the owner of the account, for example, or by confiscating your wallet and looking at its serial number.

So, it's possible to be anonymous with bitcoin, but it's not easy when you want to actually buy something that has to be delivered to you or convert them to another currency.

<comment><USER10> Or, you could just use cash which doesn't have a wallet ID to be careful about.

<comment><USER9> True, but to exchange cash you need to either physically hand it over or have it delivered.

If you exchange in person, then the other person will see you, and that person or a third party can capture an image of you which can be matched against a database of facial images. Identity blown, unless you're very careful to hide your face.

If you exchange by delivery, by whatever method, your package can be tracked to either endpoint. Even if you use a courier, that courier knows the endpoints and can be coerced into revealing them, and also might be able to identify you or capture an identifying image of you. Again, it's very easy to lose your anonymity.

It's all a matter of degree: the more likely it is that your transactions can be used as evidence against you (whether they're actually illegal or they're just being used as an intimidating force against you) the more you need to care about your anonymity. For most of us, most of the time, so long as we don't get creepy advertising that specifically references things we've looked at or purchased recently we don't really care about it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> to ease the access: [https://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5G...](https://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX)

</comment><comment><USER12> The top and bottom notes are a Bill Hicks quote, that's pretty classy as far as trolling goes.

</comment><comment><USER13> I'd personally be a lot more tolerant of trolls if I got a token amount of cash every time I was trolled.

<comment><USER14> At current rates, each troll is sending $0.000012 per message. You'd have to receive more than 80 thousand troll messages to get a single dollar.

Still tolerant?

<comment><USER15> Fair enough, but if I'm reading it correctly, >300 BTC (~$40,000) has been added to that wallet since the 'trolling' began - in one case 253 BTC was transferred from someone who strangely claims to support a bunch of things that are in opposition to U.S. law and FBI practices. At least I think that's what the comment says - I don't speak Portuguese.

<comment><USER16> " Eu sou do Brasil... Eu quero expressar minha opinião sobre a drogas... o governo prende quem vende drogas só por causa que não da lucro para o governo... então acaba com com o cigarro com as bebidas alcoólicas..."

It say's: "Im from Brazil... I want to express my opinion about drugs... The government arest who sell drugs just because it don't bring any profit to the government... So end up with the cigarrets and the alcoolic beverages..."

Edit: Corrected a typo

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I think the seizure of Silk Road absolutly had an impact on the value of BitCoins. The benefit of using BitCoins is that they provide a way to operate outside of traditional currency structures. Once BitCoins becomes something that can be seized, regulated, tracked, it becomes just like regular cash. That makes them a whole lot less valuable.

</comment><comment><USER18> I actually suspect the joke is on "The Internet"

By now the FBI should be pretty savvy about these things.

</comment><comment><USER19> If this incident doesn't alert authorities to the traceability of Bitcoin I don't know what will....

</comment><comment><USER20> The real troll is that people use bitcoins

<comment><USER21> Hey, the price was going up like nuts until recently. If you had bought in or mined early, you'd be rich. Now that everyone sees they can be confiscated just like real currency, though, the price is half what it was. Would have been good to have a short position for this.

<comment><USER22> Can be confiscated? Not if the owner was paying attention. All that would be necessary is for an accomplice to have a copy of the wallet.dat file, in any form. In which case the coins could be moved out from under their noses.

As someone who thinks the feds abuse their forfeiture power on a regular basis, seeing them have a hard time makes me laugh.

<comment><USER23> I'm not a big fan of the Wall Street Journal but they've published a steady stream of articles on asset forfeiture abuse. That is from someone in government, or even a local law enforcement agency, deciding you've committed a crime and taking nearly all of your assets before any trial.

One statistic points to $500 million forfeited in 2010. That was a doubling since 2002, and something that did not even exist roughly 40 years ago.

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190348090457651...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903480904576512253265073870.html)

There are many different US government agencies that can seize your assets, without trial, for a large number of reasons. This is not limited to you drugs or organized crime, but rather someone's belief that your money came from something that was illegal. In a case going to the Supreme Court next week, what they are being charged with may not even be illegal. The WSJ appropriately titles the article "How Prosecutors Rig Trials by Freezing Assets."

[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142412788732411040457863...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324110404578630561814823892.html)

Unfortunately bitcoin is not the solution. Because, if you attempt to use it to prevent asset forfeiture now your breaking money laundering laws. So now you can end up in jail even if you never did anything wrong in the first place.

Additionally, a judge could put you in prison indefinitely until you disclose and transfer your bitcoins. Unless you are facing the death penalty, and have a whole lot of bitcoins, you probably don't have much leverage.

Finally, the public paper trail of bitcoins will make it hard to "hide" them. I'm going to guess some of these regulators are split between liking and hating them. I would imagine that they are already piecing together the puzzle based on subpoenaed data and what is better sent to them from US compliant exchanges.

What is the solution? Making people aware that they are not free. That anyone in the state, local, or federal government has the ability to seize all of their assets at anytime. Making sure they understand that if this happens, they better have friends who will graciously front them hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars or else they will be seeing a public defender.

<comment><USER22> >Because, if you attempt to use it to prevent asset forfeiture now your breaking money laundering laws.

That would require intent to be proven.

(Not impossible or unfalsifiable, but it's another hurdle)

>Additionally, a judge could put you in prison indefinitely until you disclose and transfer your bitcoins.

If a third party spends those coins because they have the wallet file, the other copy of the wallet file becomes worthless and is no longer in your control to do anything with.

>Finally, the public paper trail of bitcoins will make it hard to "hide" them.

Not really. Between tumbling services, and the fact that it's _stupidly_ easy to create a wallet out of thin air, at that point you've broken the ownership chain. (If wallet 123, known to belong to me, sends coins to wallet 456, you can't prove whether wallet 456 is under my control unless you happen upon the file in my possession).</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


I (jgrahamc) am looking for a JavaScript guru in the Bay Area - <AUTHOR> http://www.causata.com/blog/2009/10/careers-javascript-guru.html

<comment><USER2> Your 'about us' section is sort of buzzword bingoish. What do you actually do?

<http://www.causata.com/about>

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't control that piece, unfortunately. And until we release our product (which is soon), it's hard for me to say much more.

The best I can suggest is to read the company blog: <http://www.causata.com/blog/>

<comment><USER2> Fair enough... I figured it was something along those lines. I would put something 'tempting' (we can't say just what, but we're working on something that will ...) rather than something buzzwordish myself, though.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Where do you get your startup tshirts printed? - <AUTHOR> Any recommendations for reasonably priced and high quality prints? <comment><USER2> I happened to just ask this question to the marketing person at RethinkDB and she says: "Hey Will, we use Canary Marketing now (who are absolutely amazing.. hands down some of the best swag vendors I've ever come across and I used to do this for a living lol) firstname.lastname@example.com [11:09] We print on American Apparel 50/50 or Belle + Canvas tri-blend [11:09] We used to use local printers, but Canary is best."

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. I reached out to them. Will share my findings here, in the hope that it benefits others.</comment></comment>


Google patent on Deep Neural Networks now applicable - <AUTHOR> https://patents.google.com/patent/US9715642 <comment><USER2> A possible positive outcome: maybe it would cause enough FUD in the tech industry that people start creating good explainable (model-based) data processing systems again.</comment>


KeePass 2.37 has been released - <AUTHOR> https://keepass.info/news/n171012_2.37.html <comment><USER2> KeePass is the perfect example of simplicity over complexity. It does exactly what it sets out to do and it does it well. Unlike online services, I trust it wholeheartedly, because it is free software, well-built, simple, and basically a fancy XML parser with encryption.

 _The less it does, the fewer ways it can break or be broken._ The attack surface is tiny compared to, say, LastPass.

You choose your own sync solution, unlike LastPass/the like.

What's the new standard for AES passes? Patch notes mention it but not the number.

</comment><comment><USER3> If you're on a Mac and care about UX, MacPass is an awesome client: [https://github.com/mstarke/MacPass](https://github.com/mstarke/MacPass)

This person should sell this...

<comment><USER4> I've been using KeepassXC and really like it.

[https://keepassxc.org/](https://keepassxc.org/)

[https://github.com/keepassxreboot/keepassxc](https://github.com/keepassxreboot/keepassxc)

HN discussion about it: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13468261](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13468261)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've been using KeePass for close to a decade now, and it has never let me down.

Great job!

</comment><comment><USER6> A while back I asked HN if there was any way I could trust an iOS keepass client. The answer was no, on the basis that you have no way of auditing whether the open source code built what's in the App Store. Nor is there a way of preventing a rogue keepass client app from accessing the internet and exfiltrating your database and password.

Has any of that changed recently?

<comment><USER7> What's stopping you from compiling the source on mac?

<comment><USER8> Ostensibly because then you'd have to deploy it yourself to the iOS device - which is fine for your iPhone but not so easy for your parents' iPads across the country/world.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I went to KeepassXC, so far, it looks better but it starts much slower...

<comment><USER10> It also have this issue that if you start edit a entry, it never auto locks, otherwise great software.

<comment><USER11> It actually does, if you check the option 'Automatically save after every change' under Settings -> General.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The most interesting features are:

        - Printable Emergency Sheet
        - a function to search for similar passwords

<comment><USER13> I came here hoping that the emergency sheet feature was an implementation of Shamir Secret Sharing. That would allow you to give a few sheets to trusted people, which they could combine to reveal your password.

<comment><USER14> You can do that with any number of utilities, though. Why does it have to be built in to KeePass?

<comment><USER13> True, but they don't seem obviously inter-operable (at least to non-technical users).

The same parameters input into two online SSSS generators: 3 parts( 2 reqd), secret=hackernews yield different parts.

I want to make it easy to recover. Using the same tool to store the passwords and recover the keys simplifies the process.

[1]: [http://point-at-infinity.org/ssss/](http://point-at-infinity.org/ssss/) [2]: [https://iancoleman.github.io/shamir/](https://iancoleman.github.io/shamir/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I was just given a mac at work and haven't figured out how to integrate KeePass with Firefox on OSX. On Windows I was using KeeFox, but I can't find a mac client that include KeePassRPC and the mono instructions didn't make sense. For now I'm using KeeWeb and manually copying entries. Suggestions?

<comment><USER16> Suggestion: don't use integration. The whole idea has a high risk of security compromise and the plugins I've seen were not implemented well. I use copy/paste or Autotype and don't find it slow to use at all.

<comment><USER17> So now all anyone needs to do is watch your clipboard? I'm not arguing your approach as I use Keepass in the same way, but I also know it'd be pretty straightforward to snarf my creds if you were able to watch my clipboard.

<comment><USER18> Not exactly - KeePassXC (and many of the other clients) do try to unset the clipboard. I think this is as much to save you from accidentally pasting a password into your browser's search box or a chat, but at least on OSX / macOS, it prevents a malicious script from using pbpaste to grab the last entry off the clipboard.

<comment><USER17> KeePass does the same thing by default, but all you've done is create a race condition. Clipboard changes can be picked up by any application that cares to listen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I see the Keepass website has finally started to use HTTPS.

<comment><USER20> Still not using proper version control, though

<comment><USER21> Does proper version control mean using github or just a git repo or something of that sort? I guess the developer wants to keep it a single dev project (old fashioned but the small project size means it doesn't make a big difference).[1]

[1]: [https://sourceforge.net/p/keepass/discussion/329220/thread/0...](https://sourceforge.net/p/keepass/discussion/329220/thread/02383c83/)

<comment><USER20> "I'm not going to maintain a version control system."

"Having no source code repository (version control system) doesn't mean that KeePass isn't open source."

\--Dominik Reichl

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Is this being flagged for some reason?

It's _way_ below similarly aged articles with ~5x fewer points.

</comment><comment><USER23> Is there an ETA for using .NET Core?

<comment><USER24> Are they planning on using .NET Core? With no UI?

<comment><USER23> I assume there's plenty of options... Qt or gtk bindings, electron, etc

Looks like Xamarin is building full cross-platform support via XAML

[https://blog.xamarin.com/glimpse-future-xamarin- forms-3-0/](https://blog.xamarin.com/glimpse-future-xamarin-forms-3-0/)

Avalonia seems like a straightforward reimplementation of WPF that is already usable.

[https://github.com/AvaloniaUI/Avalonia](https://github.com/AvaloniaUI/Avalonia)

DotVVM is working on electron support, and I work with it already. I like it.

[https://github.com/riganti/dotvvm- electron](https://github.com/riganti/dotvvm-electron)</comment></comment></comment>


TRAVIC – Realtime Transit Visualisation Client for Public Transport - <AUTHOR> http://tracker.geops.ch/?z=13&s=1&x=16132249.5574&y=-4551307.7356&l=transport

<comment><USER2> >This tracker provides movement visualization of transit data published by transit agencies and operators from all over the world. The movements are mostly based on static schedule data. Wherever real-time data is available it is also included in the visualization.

Really cool.

</comment><comment><USER3> The positions are interpolated from trajectories which are updated at fixed interval trough an Ajax query.</comment>


Real-World VPS Benchmarks: UpCloud vs. DigitalOcean vs. Linode - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/valentinvichnal/upcloud-vs-digitalocean-vs-linode <comment><USER2> Would like to see Vultr, OVH, and maybe the big ones like AWS, Azure, and Google in there too.

<comment><AUTHOR> I will add these servers soon! I already have test results from AWS, Google and Azure but I was afraid to include it because their basic instance's disks are slower than DigitalOcean, UpCloud or Linode's.

It doesn't mean they are bad, if you sure your app will only use memory these can be really good, but disk speed affected and shifted the whole benchmark.

They have instances with faster SSDs but if I use these for the tests the 5-10$ price range won't fit.</comment></comment>


The SaaS Fundraising Death Zone (what I wish I knew two years ago) - <AUTHOR> http://geoffmcqueen.com/2015/07/22/saas-fundraising-death-zone/

<comment><USER2> It also has a lot to do with the rate at which you took to get to that "death zone". If it takes three years to get to $50k/mth, there will be big question marks around your ability to scale beyond that.

It's not a coincidence that this zone maps up with the "chasm" between niche and mass-market appeal. If a company has been unable to already demonstrate that they can scale the product effectively, they're asking a VC to take a punt on whether they can or can't...and if it's taken 3 years, then evidence already suggests that perhaps they can't.

The other problem, is that after 3 years whilst it still may not be clear what you're company could be, it's already known what you're _not_. The possible outcomes have been narrowed. It's known you're not going to be a complete failure, but it's also known that you're not a "Unicorn".</comment>


A Liar Standing Next to a Hole in the Ground: Gold Mining in Arizona - <AUTHOR> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/exploration/a-Liar-Standing-Next-to-a-Hole-in-the-Ground.html <comment><USER2> He doesn't hire horses suitable for labour, blames them for getting tangled while also boasting of his cowboy experience, and complains bitterly of the risk that he might have to spend time tending to them if they get injured. This guy is an asshole. I hope he chokes on his gold.

</comment><comment><USER3> You liked the article so much you decided to submit it twice?

I read it after yesterday's link. I concluded that I really don't understand the urge to prospect for gold, at least not in the secret mines, ancient tales, and schlepping ore by pack and pack animal sort of way.

<comment><USER4> > You liked the article so much you decided to submit it twice?

No, that was us. We asked the submitter to repost it as part of an ongoing experiment we're running to give good stories multiple chances at the front page. I wrote about this here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8790134](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8790134).

<comment><USER3> The account submitted 9 links, including to high-quality print magazines (Outside Magazine, The Atlantic, Rolling Stone) within an hour. I wondered if the submitter had not remembered which had already been posted.

Rhetorically speaking, how do I distinguish between someone who was asked to re-post, and someone who is making multiple submissions for, say, self- promotional reason? This case didn't look like self-promotion, though others with a sparser posting history might. I tend to flag the more egregious self- promoters.

After reading your comments, I'll be more generous about upvoting /newest.

<comment><USER4> > how do I distinguish between someone who was asked to re-post, and someone > who is making multiple submissions for, say, self-promotional reason?

For the time being, you have to tell that by looking at the articles and the account's submission history. It's usually pretty easy to spot self-promotion. Keep in mind, though, that self-promotion per se isn't against the spirit of the site; uninteresting content is.

Also, we modified the FAQ to make it clear that when a story hasn't had much attention yet, a small number of reposts is ok. The point of all of this is try to mitigate the weaknesses of /newest as a mechanism for recognizing good stories.

<comment><USER5> One of the more frustrating aspects of submitting stories is finding out someone submitted the same story hours (or days) ago and it only garnered a few karma. In that situation, there's no hope of the story getting much attention even though multiple people found it interesting enough to submit. The karma is just spread out over too long a time for the algorithm to raise up the story.

I can imagine you need to defend against rings of people submitting the same spam story over time, but maybe if a few established users are submitting a story, its rank could be raised more than the karma/time ratio alone would indicate.

<comment><USER4> I agree, and it's one reason why we want to make a better dupe detection system. We did look at changing that particular behavior but it turned out to be hard to do in isolation.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Zen Stories - <AUTHOR> http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/ <comment><USER2> "Finding a Diamond on a Muddy Road":

> Modern Zen teachers in Japan spring from the lineage of a famous master who > was the successor of Gudo. His name was Mu-nan, the man who never returned > back.

What happened to his family? It's great that he achieved enlightenment and all, if that's what actually happened, but it's very curious that an epiphany centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.

I hesitate to say this makes a good example of the essential self-absorption I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy, but this makes a good example of the essential self-absorption I've observed in a lot of Zen philosophy. What good are you, what worth have you, if you spend all your energy making yourself precious and ignore the world as it crumbles to dust around you?

<comment><USER3> >What happened to his family? It's great that he achieved enlightenment and all, if that's what actually happened, but it's very curious that an epiphany centered around his failure to uphold his responsibilities to his loved ones resulted in his abandoning said loved ones for the remainder of his life.

The Buddha himself, who was a prince from the Shakya clan, has been criticized for leaving his wife and family behind to begin the life of an ascetic.

However I wonder if we would be criticizing him as much if he had left for war, since his clan was a warrior clan.

Who criticizes any great general or conqueror in history for leaving his family behind, and why not?

<comment><USER4> >>Who criticizes any great general or conqueror in history for leaving his family behind, and why not?

Many people (mainly pacifists) criticize such great generals for being war- thirsty or violent.

I think, Buddha is rightly criticized for not performing his duty towards his family and then going on preaching other people to care for all other people.

Other point, I think, Buddha is rightly criticized for is to do with non- violence: too much insistence on non-violence actually resulted in tolerance of even the intolerants and which is not good.

It reminds me what Obama rightly said while receiving Noble peace prize: "But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: Evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force may sometimes be necessary is not a call to cynicism -- it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason." [1]

[1] [https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks- presiden...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/remarks-president- acceptance-nobel-peace-prize)

<comment><USER5> Arguably one of the functions of religion is to induce people to work for the benefit of the larger community at the expense of themselves and their family. That's not an insignificant feat given the evolutionary pressures to cheat the community for the benefit of yourself and your relations.

It shouldn't be surprising that religion will, on the one hand, pay lip service regarding familial obligations, while ultimately emphasize attending to the community's needs and propagation of the religion. Often times the latter (community and religion) will be defined in terms of familial obligations. And familial obligations (especially filial obligations, e.g. obeying your parents) serve to prime people's acceptance of external authority, such as adoption of framing devices and conceptual models.

I'm not trying to be cynical. The tensions are obvious and must be resolved somehow. Sometimes inevitable contradictions must be swept under the rug or explained away. And often times one role serves multiple, seemingly contradictory functions. The complexity is compounded as the self-identifying community grows larger and deeper.

Religion is hardly the only area of social life that must handle these issues, and I don't mean to bash religion or to circumscribe the roles and functions of religion. Similar tensions and contradictions can be found _within_ family life.

In any event, like a Zen Koan if you think to literally about the problem-- filial vs individual vs community obligations--you'll miss the forest for the trees. I don't think there's an answer except to accept the contradiction and attempt to maximize service to your obligations (in as much as you accept them). Obviously how you qualitatively and quantitatively measure things will strongly dictate where the optimum is, and different religions will counsel different equilibriums for identical circumstances.

<comment><USER4> >>And familial obligations (especially filial obligations, e.g. obeying your parents) serve to prime people's acceptance of external authority, such as adoption of framing devices and conceptual models.

Can you elaborate a bit on framing devices and conceptual models? I didn't quite get it.

>>In any event, like a Zen Koan if you think to literally about the problem-- filial vs individual vs community obligations--you'll miss the forest for the trees.

By forest exactly what are you referring to? BTW, we must not miss the parental and other familial obligations too.

>>Obviously how you qualitatively and quantitatively measure things will strongly dictate where the optimum is, and different religions will counsel different equilibriums for identical circumstances.

Very well said. I liked this very much. So much for the people (especially some religion apologists) who insist that all religions are equal as their core messages are same.

<comment><USER5> By framing devices I meant things like, most simply, obedience to authority. Arguably one of the defining elements of Confucianism is an equivocation between filial duties, on the one hand, and duties to increasingly distant and abstract social relations on the other. By contrast, in Christianity you just have "obey your parents" on the one hand, and "render unto ceasar what is his" on the other, which doesn't dictate the particulars of how authority operates in a society to the same degree that it's dictated by Confucianism.

But also, for example, devices that teach you to think of the good of the community as a good accruing directly to you. In other words, a hijacking of selfishness. Many religions teach that good deeds and sacrifice will accrue a benefit to you in an afterlife.

I just didn't want to suggest that religion necessarily turns people into sheeple, to be inevitably abused by elites. That's often a consequence, but that's hardly always the case. And that's a possible consequence of culture more generally, not just religion. In this sense I think of culture as the underlying phenomenon that makes religion and other forms of complex social organization possible in the face of the counter-veiling Darwinian genetic forces; as opposed to culture referring to the beliefs and habits of a particular community. And I usually distinguish religion from other social structures by reliance on magical thinking, though magical thinking is hardly exclusive to religion.

I don't have a degree in psychology or anthropology or anything, so my personal models and definitions aren't academically rigorous. Though I studied international relations in undergraduate school, and I ended up reading quite a lot of economic, sociologic, and anthropologic literature on these issues.

<comment><USER4> Thanks a lot. It helped.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Was the text added using OCR? I ask because I see a number of text errors that look like that.

* "1" for "l" ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/009/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/009/))

* Unmatched quotation marks or differing symbols (' vs ') ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/002/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/002/))

* Several times I've seen "yon" for "you" ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/004/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/004/))

* "l" for "r" (loom/room) ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/099/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/099/))

If so, what's the original source for these stories? I don't see credits anywhere, though I am probably just missing them.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, definitely. E.g. mistaking "alone" for "done":

        he used to travel done as a wandering mendicant

As for the source, this[0] archive of a 1957 book has the same typo, so I'm guessing that's where it came from?

[0] [https://archive.org/stream/ZenFleshZenBones/zen_djvu.txt](https://archive.org/stream/ZenFleshZenBones/zen_djvu.txt)

<comment><USER8> I recognize the stories from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones (I have an old paper copy).

<comment><USER6> And, although the stories may be ancient, the translation is presumably not. Are these out of copyright?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Is this a copy?

[http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html](http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/zenindex.html)

That ashida kim zen koan site has been on the interwebs for a long time. The story order is the same, and the names look the same too.

<comment><USER10> This particular collection of koans was assembled and published in 1919, so I guess copyright has expired.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> A later addition that I've seen to "Not Far From Buddhahood" ([http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/016/](http://nkanaev.github.io/zen101/en/016/)), most likely via anonymous folk process:

The Christian then reads the Beatitudes, and Gasan exclaims "whoever spoke those words is radiant with divinity!". The overjoyed man rushes to the church, faces the altar, and cries out "Jesus! I got that Buddhist to confess that you were divine!". And from the heavens a loving voice replies "And other than inflating your ego, what good did it do?"

</comment><comment><USER12> On the topic - I found these books helpful:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Flesh,_Zen_Bones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Flesh,_Zen_Bones) (which includes 101 zen stories) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner%27s_Mind)

<comment><USER13> Both of these are awesome. More so Zen mind.

<comment><USER14> I've read both. Zen Flesh, Zen Bones, is very good, but Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is a transcendent and very useful classic if you are actively engaged in zazen practice.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> "Finding a Diamond on a Muddy Road"

> 'I will help him,' said Gudo.

Zen master's actions had the opposite effect. The drunk man's wife was precisely worried about her husband going one day and never coming back.

> Sometimes when becomes thoroughly drunk he does not come home at all. What > can I do?

After Gudo's lesson, he left his family forever.

<comment><USER16> > Zen master's actions had the opposite effect.

No, the Zen master's actions had the intended effect. He said "I will help him" and he did exactly that.

<comment><USER15> You are right. Master said he will help the man not his wife. Thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Genuinely curious: Are these koans? [1] Or are koans and Zen stories different somehow?

TIA,

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan)

<comment><USER18> Nope, these are not koans. I recommend D.T. Suzuki essays on zen buddhism, namely second series for a proper explanation of the koan exercise.

Apparently the author of the blog only focused on japanese zen stories, which is unfortunate, as the stories of chinese zen masters — where zen as a school of buddhism was founded — are as truthful, if not more original, than the japanese stories the author selected.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> The site's html and css have Zen-like clarity.

<comment><USER20> It's also hard to see the big picture (toc) and where to go next unless you really focus. _panflutes_

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> After reading "Is that so?" I wonder whether the story still applies with the internet of today, where (for the average person) a smeared reputation remains online even after corrections are made.

</comment><comment><USER22> _I send this message to the current YC batch this afternoon:_

Don't Read The Zen Stories

\- Zen-sama</comment>


Dating app looking for a co-founder - <AUTHOR>

	Hi, my name is Julian, i'm from Switzerland and i'm looking for a co founder interested in discussing how a dating app could be cool and loved by the customer and eventually build it. I already have a lot of ideas about how to create an innovative and fast growing user base app. I studied UX and marketing, would be great having a conversation with a developer. <comment><USER2> Have you nailed down: 1\. A product market fit? 2\. Accessibility channels? 3\. Monetization strategy? 4\. Competitive Advantage?

UX & marketing are pieces of the puzzle but not the whole pie. If you have all the pieces ready above then I think you are ready to engage a developer /co- founder.

In my experience with dating (speeddate.com) it is a lucrative business but a very shady one depending on what line of the fence you sit on. Approach with care.

Cheers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Would be interesting talking about your previous experiences. Right now i have ideas but those ideas need to be discussed. If you are interested too we can meet.

<comment><USER2> With my current time commitments the best I can do is email. If that doesn't work for you then I understand. I wish you the best of success in your venture!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> It is very likely you're putting off developers that would otherwise be happy to talk to you.

You seem to indicate you are not a developer yourself, yet you think you have ideas related to scalability. If I want someone to tell me how to do my job then they'd need to be either a developer I want to learn from or paying me obscene amounts of money.

<comment><USER4> "fast growing user base" != how to scale from a technical aspect, but rather how to acquire a lot of users quickly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hi, We are a team of experts which enabled 3 startups achieve seed round funding in last 3 years. All the products were introduced as ideas to begin with.

We were about to begin developing our own web app around online dating, and did invest quite lot of time into feature analysis and wireframing initial screens.

Let us know in case you want to have a discussion.

evaltn at gmail.

</comment><comment><USER6> Are you solving your own problem?

What is the quantum of utility over other dating apps?

Why would you foremost like to discuss the app and only then "eventually build it" \- why not jump right in and see if your future customers find it "cool and love..(it)"?

<comment><AUTHOR> I would like to discuss my ideas with someone who, like me, is interested in dating apps and who can see the problems of building them in a technical way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> The real cost is customer acquisition. If you can get that figured out, you have a winner. I am open to collaboration deal, and you can contact on IRC

[http://www.digi-go.com/creativearmy](http://www.digi-go.com/creativearmy)

</comment><comment><USER8> I'm interested as well, my brother in law is in the business of dating/friendship and maybe we can partner up =)

professorturing [at] gma... com

</comment><comment><USER9> Does anyone else find this incredibly ironic?

</comment><comment><USER10> email me: email@example.com

background: www.about.me/brycedbayens</comment>


Icrontic review: Sentey Burton full-size tower PC case - <AUTHOR> http://tech.icrontic.com/articles/reviews/sentey-burton-full-size-tower-pc-case-review/

<comment><USER2> Why is this interesting versus any of a million other case reviews?</comment>


Rob Pike's Structural Regular Expressions in Python - <AUTHOR> http://code.google.com/p/sregex/ <comment><AUTHOR> <http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/structural_regexps/se.pdf>

_"The current UNIX® text processing tools are weakened by the built-in concept of a line. There is a simple notation that can describe the `shape' of files when the typical array-of-lines picture is inadequate. That notation is regular expressions. Using regular expressions to describe the structure in addition to the contents of files has interesting applications, and yields elegant methods for dealing with some problems the current tools handle clumsily. When operations using these expressions are composed, the result is reminiscent of shell pipelines."_</comment>


Ask HN: What are some possible solutions to the IP problem? - <AUTHOR>

I think most of us would agree that the current patent/copyright system has gotten a little out of hand. I also think that most of us would agree that sweeping regulatory changes are not our government's forte. So, with that in mind, what are some possible solutions to the current IP system that would foster innovation while still providing profit for those producing IP? <comment><USER2> I feel the "IP extortionists", those that acquire IP only to claim the value someone else builds, are the biggest problem.

I'm no law-talking-guy, but I've thought;

Maybe we need a "if you don't use it, you lose it" clause?

Maybe we also need better definition and enforcement of what's an "obvious" idea?</comment>


Story of Odoo: Open-Sourced Competitor to Oracle, SAP - <AUTHOR> https://breakoutstartups.substack.com/p/breakout-startups-24-odoo <comment><USER2> I've been working with Odoo for about a year implementing it for a small- medium business in the UK (lots of customisations, general specing out etc, working with their partners, etc. So not all dev). Disclaimer I've not yet touched v13.

The good; The OCA (community association), the people (both community and Odoo), the basic framework gets you up and running fast. You can tell it's grown over time, and it's got sharp edges, but you can get what you need done. Not necessarily in the prettiest way. The backwards compatibility and desire to not break the core APIs is generally good from what I've seen so far. Individual modules depends how much Odoo themselves lean on it afaict. GitHub access for partners and direct source access to both enterprise and community editions has been extremely helpful.

The bad; imho testing is a pain. The ORM uses Polish notation to build filters, which if you're used to SQL is frankly irritating to work with. The ORM itself is quite clever, but it's also not like any ORM I've worked with. The dev docs aren't great, beyond the basics. The quality of modules in the "App Store" is extremely hit or miss. Odoo official "support" as a partner is questionable. I feel like they're under pressure to get you to pay up to be a partner and then some period of time you might get help later. Anecdotally I'm led to believe our partner account manager has been pushing us hard to host a local event at our own cost (I'm not that involved with that side). The last few versions have seen more accounting features drop out of community edition. Some of the official apps are basic.

Is it better than SAP, Dynamics, etc.? Probably not. Is it good enough given the price point and flexibility, for smaller businesses? Probably, especially if the business has been tying together lots of apps adhoc.

<comment><USER3> You should also checkout ERPNext ([https://github.com/frappe/erpnext](https://github.com/frappe/erpnext)). Its another free and open source ERP (GNU GPL v3) which is not open core. ERPNext is also built as a monolith, so you get maximum features out of the box instead of relying on 100s of extensions to fulfill your requirements. All since there is no "enterprise" version, there is no chance of features dropping out like accounting and payroll.

ERPNext has reasonable traction too (~5k+ stars on GitHub, 12k+ forum members) and is used by some very large enterprises.

Disclaimer: I am the founder of ERPNext

<comment><USER4> You guys should definitely dial down on the marketing hyperbole. A good technical getting started documentation would be much better than forcing potential users to dig through GitHub and stumble their way in.

<comment><USER3> Posted GitHub since it's HN. Docs available at [https://erpnext.com/docs/user/manual/en](https://erpnext.com/docs/user/manual/en)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I've used it for several small businesses with near zero IT budgets. It's been great and an enabler. The CRM for instance is brilliant. In a way gave us a complete governance system for many of the company's staple processes. It could also support our manufacturing process!

The feature set is unstable though. From version to version they will remove first class features from COMMUNITY EDITION to ENTERPRISE.

Biggest for me was financial accounting, which was removed.

Some new large features to trickle down to COMMUNITY also, so the pendulum swings both ways. However I don't see this instability as anything good for the community edition users.

</comment><comment><USER6> I am of the opinion that open source, venture capital based companies are a disaster waiting to happen. Open source is just not compatible with the large return on investments that venture capital is built on.

These companies will happily take the goodwill and source contributions that come from being open source and then eventually try to monetize by abandoning their open source license.

<comment><USER7> Maybe coops would fit better?

<comment><USER8> like SWIFT, literally a cooperative of banks?

<comment><USER7> Could be, but I was considering worker-coops.

But if we look at some open source foundations, they are pretty much that (but usually in a non-profit form, why would that be? /s).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> This is fascinating.

I work for a large enterprise that has basically written its own ERP from scratch. There's a lot of rough edges but it's very tailored for our workflow and processes.

I've toyed with the idea of what I'd build if I could largely take what I know and start fresh (standard exercise in madness, I know) in order to learn about the bits I am not familiar with (I'm more in manufacturing, know very little about CRM and accounting processes).

It was very interesting coming across this only a few weeks ago and seeing this here. Starting it up in a docker container was a snap and it had a number of free modules that were easy to add. It's very basic but gets the point across and was a fun learning experience (and nice because it's in a language I don't currently develop in, python).

Just thought the timing was peculiar and enjoyed hearing about folks here harping on ERP development as soul-crushing. Yes, it can be at times, but I also really enjoy how it lets me really dig into my company's processes. When you get it right, it can make your users sing with joy when you help speed things up or streamline things.

I don't know where I was going with this but just enjoyed the article :)

<comment><USER10> My whole programming career has been around custom and standard ERP and internal business apps. I am in mfg too, just not a large enterprise. Low bureacracy, easy to get things done, joy when you see your software improves your coworkers work daily. I also had an an idea of making a new ERP, something that will have a strong both financials and manufacturing and not much else, so a bit narrow focus, but it would cut a lot of baggage that first and second tier ERP carry. Closest I can think of it is Dynamics GP as a modern web app. I never worked with GP, only looked thir user guides and youtube videos, but without actual app as a reference it is hard to make any progress.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> How does Odoo compare with Tryton ([https://www.tryton.org/](https://www.tryton.org/)) today?

For a little background, Tryton is a fork of Odoo when it was still called TinyERP, motivated by disagreements among TinyERP founders and early developers on the technical and business directions.

See 2016 HN discussion [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12985791](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12985791)

<comment><USER12> You should test them both online, it takes a few minutes. There is no comparison possible. \- Odoo: [https://odoo.com/start](https://odoo.com/start) \- Tryton: [https://www.tryton.org/download](https://www.tryton.org/download)

<comment><USER13> jump directly to Tryton on-line demo at demo.tryton.org

I'm involved in both Odoo nd Tryton. For a first approach, I would say they are very different

\- by their surface: Odoo tends to be The solution, Tryton focuses on providing best basics.

\- by their ambition: Odoo aims first places, Tryton wants to please its members and users.

\- by their size: Odoo is a big project, Tryton is a small community.

I pre-configured again both last week for customers. Apart Odoo's gadgets collection, I really prefer Tryton user experience.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> There's a fork of Odoo called Flectra [0]. Feature wise they are almost identical, but there's a difference in paid vs. unpaid versions. Flectra gives all the features for free and you pay the support if you need it.

[0]: [https://flectrahq.com/](https://flectrahq.com/)

</comment><comment><USER8> The founder and the other two guys that were there in the beginning are still the biggest committers in odoo. It's a striking difference from pg or zuck or other people the same position in US who only have toy projects.

<comment><USER15> > _The founder and the other two guys that were there in the beginning are > still the biggest committers in odoo._

Is that a good thing, 15 years in?

<comment><USER16> There might be some misunderstanding about what "the biggest" means: they have the largest proportion of commits to their name, percentage-wise, they don't have a majority of the total commits. Ie, the founder has around 1-2% of all commits, when the company has 100~ish full-time devs.

<comment><USER12> Founder here. I don't develop anymore since a few years with some exceptions (e.g. the ORM refactoring if v13). I still spend 50% of my time to improve the product, but more as a product owner. (The other 50% is to improve the company)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Related from 2014: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7750020](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7750020)

2012: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4904741](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4904741)

</comment><comment><USER18> I can't imagine wanting to spend my free time contributing to anything that's in the same class of software as Oracle or SAP. That's a hard hill to climb for an open-source project - ERP is just soul-sucking drudgery, at the best of times.

At best I can imagine having to use the thing for work, and at least being able to hack in a fix for a bug. Assuming I can actually get the whole thing to build. And that there's any stomach in the organization for customization that isn't on somebody else's liability.

<comment><USER19> You can definitively get it to build; Odoo is essentially a Python web framework (ORM, UI framework, etc) that happens to include a bunch of apps for typical business needs. Running it is no harder than running the average Django app, just point it to a Postgres instance.

That said, while I enjoyed the six years I worked with it at different companies, I can't say I'd spend my free time on it. But I don't think that's necessary for FOSS to work; Odoo has a pretty good community (OCA), mostly composed of people paid to work with it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I recently got a job offer from Odoo and from what I could gather they seem to be a nice company with an open source culture. Unfortunately working as a developer for Odoo means moving to some place in the Belgian countryside (or to Gandhinagar, India)

<comment><USER21> Living in Brussels / Leuven / Louvain-la-Neuve and commuting is quite feasible. Lots of smart people working there, I would recommend.

<comment><USER22> Living in Brussels and was searching for a job not so long ago. I just didn't even sent my CV to them beceause they where too far away. From Brussels to their town it's more than hour and half and that's an optimistic number.

<comment><USER21> Depends where in Brussels, from the southern neighbourhoods (Boitsfort, Auderghem, Woluwe, Etterbeek, etc), it's 30min-50min. There's little traffic in that direction. Did it for years from Boitsfort :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> How is this 15-year-old company, which isn't mentioned in any "ERP vendors" roundup that I can find, a "breakout startup" (to quote the actual title)? They appear to have little to no momentum.

> _Odoo is largely profitable…_

What is the difference between "largely profitable" and "not profitable"?

<comment><USER8> I live in Belgium, which is Odoo home country, and I see many cars bearing Odoo logo in the streets. Also, SMEs here choose Odoo over competition as often as they choose Windows over competition.

ERP vendor roundups, Magic Quadrant and McKinsey advisories exist in a totally different world.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> We have used Scipio ERP ([https://www.scipioerp.com/](https://www.scipioerp.com/)), which is based on OFBiz, in a couple of projects. It's very flexible and easily integrates with other systems (using Camel). It's more suited to bigger businesses, though. Some components are closed but 95% are Apache licensed.

Disclaimer: I'm friends with the devs behind Scipio.

</comment><comment><USER5> If anyone wants to try the community version of Odoo out, here's a script which will install it in pretty much one command. I've used this for several years, it's now bumped the installer to version 13.

[https://github.com/Yenthe666/InstallScript](https://github.com/Yenthe666/InstallScript)

It runs fine even on Digital Ocean USD5 instances.

Thanks Yenthe666!

</comment><comment><USER24> You should also have a look at Dolibarr ERP CRM ([https://github.com/dolibarr/dolibarr](https://github.com/dolibarr/dolibarr) or [https://www.dolibarr.org](https://www.dolibarr.org) for portal). Its another free ERP and CRM (GNU GPL v3) which is fuly Open Source (no proprietary version). It is a modular and easy to use ERP and CRM. The addon store contains several hundred of extensions but in most cases you can find all what you need with the hundred of modules available by default with standard distribution.

</comment><comment><USER25> Bitrix24 has been pretty successful going against Odoo, though Bitrix24 is not an ERP system per say - [https://www.bitrix24.com/tools/](https://www.bitrix24.com/tools/) . The hybrid approach (Bitrix24 is free in cloud, source code is available to commercial users) seems to work great with businesses that have a limited budget. Open source products are great but unless you are a techie yourself, high labor costs make deployment too expensive oftentimes. This is especially true for smaller project with small or no budget.

</comment><comment><USER26> Fyi, [https://erpnext.com/](https://erpnext.com/) is a competitor of oodoo ( called openerp before) and it's more opensource.

</comment><comment><USER27> Does anyone know how the market for Odoo consulting looks like?

<comment><USER12> It's huge and growing very fast. Here is the latest partner survey: [https://fpodoo.typeform.com/report/of94m5/u9OIWzKf0ncIVPV4](https://fpodoo.typeform.com/report/of94m5/u9OIWzKf0ncIVPV4)

There are already 31k employees dedicated to Odoo, working for official partners. (12 per partner on average, 2600 partners) And probably as much in the community. 50% of partners do more than 50% of their business on Odoo; it quickly become their main source of revenues after one or two years.

Margins are high as it's based on highly valuable business services: what you deliver is not your time, but software that transform the company. We charge on average 950€ / 1050$ per day.

I have seen a lot of self-employed or small companies growing fast as they started working on Odoo.

Odoo has a real positive impact on companies using it, as you can see in these interviews of random customers: [https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5BDHVRYo-q5eXZIMnpyNjVYV0x...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5BDHVRYo-q5eXZIMnpyNjVYV0xpdDVsUldpWnJZX1UtSE4w/view?usp=sharing)

<comment><USER27> Interesting, so it's quite similar to SAP. Do you need deep business knowledge, or are software skills (Python, JS I guess?) sufficient?

<comment><USER5> It's business IT consulting. You need to know end to end processes within the department / part of the company you're working for, then you must know the odoo system/platform very well and pair and match the two.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Have a look at [https://axelor.com](https://axelor.com), a fully open source business platform using Java technologies...

</comment><comment><USER29> I've been working with Odoo now for about 2 years. (TLDR; Oddo works fine, but it's documentation really suck). It's great when you want some basic stuff up and running fast. However, my biggest beef about this stack is the lack of good documentation. If you want to build custom stuff there's a huge investment in time to get your head around how things are working. Basically you have to read and understand a lot of the source code to get complicated stuff done. When stuck on "more than basic" stuff it's not unusual to spend days figuring out things. Hell, even basic stuff is hard to grasp sometimes. Don't even ask how much time I spend making VusJS integrate with Odoo.

</comment><comment><USER30> Odoo its opensource but they don't accept pull request.

<comment><USER31> It is open core. More and more parts are removed from the open source part and require a licencse.

IMHO open core is a truely treacherous model that should be avoided at all cost. Better completely closed source than the evil mixture.</comment></comment>