OpsGenie is joining Atlassian - <AUTHOR> https://www.opsgenie.com/blog/opsgenie-is-joining-atlassian <comment><USER3> Taking this as the thread for Jira Ops as well...

> Is there a Jira Ops server option? > Jira Ops is currently available for > cloud. We believe the best incident tooling is hosted outside your > infrastructure so it's always available, even if all your internal systems > go down.

Once again, Atlassian keeps the good stuff from customers who for whichever reason (usually regulatory) they must maintain systems with no ingress from the internet and therefore cannot use SaaS products.

Atlassian is right, of course, that these kinds of systems which are "above" production should not use the same infrastructure, so that they are completely independent of production in case of wide-ranging production outages. It doesn't matter, regulation is regulation is regulation.

I'm not sure what their market positioning is supposed to be with this product. The value of managed incident response only goes up with the size of the client company. Yet, Jira's cloud offering has a limit of 2,000 users, with early access (read: no production / performance support or guarantees) for 5,000 users. If you work for a large Fortune Whatever company, and even if that company is able to move infrastructure to a public cloud and use SaaS and various goodies, you must operate Jira Data Center to operate with that number of users. Because Jira Data Center isn't Jira Cloud, you don't get access to Jira Ops.

Does Atlassian not think that incident response matters to companies operating under airgap regulations? Or to large enterprises? Does Atlassian think that smaller companies are spending that much time and energy on incident response to warrant this product? :/

<comment><USER4> > Does Atlassian not think that incident response matters to companies > operating under airgap regulations? Or to large enterprises? Does Atlassian > think that smaller companies are spending that much time and energy on > incident response to warrant this product? :/

I feel your frustration, but that is not the kind of thought process behind such product decisions.

Usually there's some sort of corporate strategy, and if that strategy says "cloud first" or "cloud only", then there isn't all that much that a lowly product manager can do.

And even if it's not just a matter of corporate strategy, these companies ask questions like "what's the market size for a cloud-only product?" and "what is the market size for an on-premise solution?" and "how much more effort is it to offer both?", and if the second isn't large enough to warrant the effort, there won't be any.

From a business perspective, a hosted Saas/cloud product simply is very appealing (revenue stream, homogeneous infrastructure, no offsite debugging necessary etc.), and the business folks always dream of just getting some kind of certification with which they can reach ever more regulated customers.

<comment><USER5> I've been on the engineering side of sales for a number of years now. The "term" model and deferred revenue is a big push across all public organizations since it bodes well on the balance sheet. The quick death of perpetual licenses for many products that started out in that world is here and rampant. Cloud drives the term model neatly and succinctly. Opex for the SaaS provider is well defined the margins are predictable and scalable. If you like buying your software with a license and having the flexibility my, unfortunate, perspective is your options will continue to be more and more limited unless customers start pushing back.

The other upsell strategy is bundles and ELAs. Sell your customer everything, even if they don't need it. This is done by tossing im the kitchen sink beyond the core product the customer actually wants. It's far better to report sales on products that don't actually sell well on their own and take pennies on the list price vs none at all. I'll refrain from name dropping here but the security vertical is a huge offender of these tactics and I feel as though more production IT/ops products and vendors are now going down this path.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Jira Ops seems really nice, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uIhtpSMaA4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uIhtpSMaA4) and has a nice UI

Disclaimer: I work at OpsGenie, and this is the first time I saw Jira Ops in action

</comment><comment><USER7> OpsGenies Thundra is an exceptional serverless APM tool. It supports auto instrumentation for Java and allows you to debug your exception with your given state & variables at the time (like overops).

Anybody who does serverless should seriously consider using it.

Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated to any of these companies.

<comment><USER8> Hi,

I am Serkan Özal, Co-Founder and Lead Engineer of Thundra.

Thanks for your compliment to Thundra :) Are you currently a Thundra user? Have you tried it before? We would like to get your feedbacks. You can contact with me ("email@example.com") or give your e-mail address so we can contact with you :)

Spolier: There are more advanced features coming soon, stay tuned!

<comment><USER9> I don't imagine they're making that comment without having tried it before ... which makes this feel like an incredibly scripted response.

<comment><USER8> including your response and this one?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> We use OpsGenie at Sourcegraph. They are great--nice UI, the ability to set rotating on-call schedules, and an API that lets us easily integrate multiple sources of alerts. They were also less expensive by a wide margin than many of their competitors. A great acquisition by Atlassian!

</comment><comment><USER11> I do wish OpsGenie would use Twilio or someone for SMS messaging so I don't get messages from 20 different phone numbers. Makes it very hard to set a custom alert tone.

Also, iOS doesn't allow you to set a custom per-app alert sound, so I can't set one there that will wake me up when stuff is broken.

Also the UI on their app is marginal at best - multiple taps, no back tracking, etc.

<comment><USER12> You can't really blame them for the second point, that's an Apple limitation.

I use OpsGenie on Android and I have a specific sound set for the new alert notification. It will also audibly alert me at max volume regardless of my ringer volume or DND setting.

I do agree about the multiple source numbers of SMS alerts but they're hardly the only person who does this.

Can't say I have had many issues with their UI. It's fairly straightforward. The only annoyance for me is ack'ing or closing a number of alerts at once and getting a bit of lag.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Interesting development, I suspected SolarWinds would pull the trigger on OpsGenie first.

Let's see what Atlassian makes of it.

</comment><comment><USER14> I've found Opsgenie's support and pricing to be good. Hopefully that doesn't change with Atlassian...

</comment><comment><USER15> Everyone knows that Prometheus is way better at alerting, and much more transparent. No one needs to pay for an SMS gateway at this point unless they are full of corrupt vendor contracts keeping them on legacy solutions. GitLab is also a much better option for issues and SCM integration. Therefore, Atlassian and OpsGenie go together as two dying companies.

<comment><USER16> You're really comparing two different things here.

Prometheus is great at alerting. So, where do those alerts go? How do they reach the right team, the right person who is on-call? How do they know that Person A is on-call between 8am and 5pm, but Person B's shift starts after that? Oh, wait, Person B is on vacation and asked Person C to cover for them.

Person A, B, and C's manager wants to monitor how the MTTR on all of those alerts is. Where does Prometheus provide that data?

These systems don't do the same things. OpsGenie isn't just an "SMS Gateway".

<comment><USER17> > _Oh, wait, Person B is on vacation and asked Person C to cover for them_

You just hit a particular peeve with a sideways glance.

There is a fundamental problem with "person B is on vacation and _asked_ person C to cover". In the OpsGenie world, shift overrides are manual. _Only_ manual. (I consider poking API with pre-calculated data as manual, too.)

What I really want is for OpsGenie to add support for concept of vacation. When someone is going on a vacation, it should be possible to tell the alerting system that during timeframe T, person P is unavailable - <USER2> recalculate and reschedule the rest of the roster. But no. _They don 't do that._

Our guys have asked for this feature during contract negotiations. I have asked it personally from their engineering staff. It's just not a feature they want to support.

<comment><USER18> you have hit the issue in the head. Even other tools like victorOps suffer from this. Overrides are manual and in some cases, if people switch 4 day on call with 3 day ones. They are getting screwed. There has to be a concept of vacation and automate rescheduling. I am suprised, there isnt a decent tool to address it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> If any Atlassian or OpsGenie folks read here: I wonder if we opensource projects would/could now also benefit from the generous Atlassian licensing for the OpsGenie service? Though "just" an opensource project we do have an "infrastructure" and "tasks" that we would like to be able to "alert on". But haven't do to the pricing.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi there. I work at Atlassian. I'll look into this and respond back on this thread. To be completely open, it may be a while before I get an answer since it's just been announced.

For those of you that don't know, Atlassian offers free licenses to open source projects, including cloud and server versions of Jira, Confluence, Bitbucket, and more. See [https://www.atlassian.com/software/views/open- source-license...](https://www.atlassian.com/software/views/open-source- license-request) for more info and approval criteria.

<comment><USER20> +1 to this idea, we would switch to OpsGenie immediately if this was the case (from PagerDuty)</comment></comment></comment>


Show HN: Evolution Chamber - <AUTHOR> http://evolution.hackmit.org/ <comment><USER2> I love it, but the server seems overloaded. Because it reacts so slowly it's a bit hard to tell what's going on. What does the "Progress" stat represent, exactly?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yep... a couple of people on the HackMIT organizing team built this in the last 18 hours at a hackathon, and the code... isn't the most efficient. Sorry about that.

The "progress" stat represents the progress on the current generation. Once we have enough user votes to infer the fitness of individuals in the current generation, we can perform selection and mutation to produce the next generation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Related (and cooler, no offense:) [http://boxcar2d.com/](http://boxcar2d.com/)

<comment><USER4> [http://rednuht.org/genetic_cars_2/](http://rednuht.org/genetic_cars_2/)

Is it the same ?

<comment><USER5> From that very page: "Loosely based on BoxCar2D, but written from scratch, only using the same physics engine"

<comment><USER4> I asked because I have a "Get flashplayer" icon on boxcar2d.com. I'm on Debian.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Research has shown that making a selection between a limited set of options a large number of times is very exhausting for the brain. So I don't think this is really a good solution to any problem. But it is interesting, nonetheless.

A better idea could be to present these options while the subject's brain is being scanned using some neuro-imaging technique, and based on these signals let the system evolve.

</comment><comment><USER7> If you enjoy this logo-evolution idea, you'd probably also enjoy Picbreeder ([http://picbreeder.org/](http://picbreeder.org/)) which allows you to breed pictures (generally, not only restricted to a particular logo) represented by neural networks, through an evolutionary algorithm.

</comment><comment><USER8> How can I create my own evolution? It started on generation 90 for me and already looked good. Is it bugged?

<comment><AUTHOR> Everyone works on evolving the same population together. We built this in a very short period, and so there's no support for evolving your own population yet (unless you want to deploy your own version of the script).</comment></comment>


I bought a Switch from Nintendo and they threatened me with legal action - <AUTHOR> https://headmelted.com/i-bought-a-switch-from-nintendo-and-they-threatened-me-with-legal-action-6ea77b4f1eb9 <comment><USER2> I have never, ever dealt with any above mid-sized company that handles customer service and delivery well. There seems to be a set of standardised industry practices that are completely and utterly customer hostile.

The moment regular company employees stop dealing with customer issues, delivery, etc., and hands it over to "specialists", it's basically a crap shoot whether you can get any issue resolved at all, because the systems they put in place make it nearly impossible.

For example: A courier claims they called at your house and got no answer, even though you were in and they didn't. You call customer services, but they have no way at all to contact the courier and tell them to go back and try again. Even if they're only two minutes down the road. The system deliberately puts a firewall between the reps and the delivery infrastructure, because any kind of ad-hoc action to resolve customer issues interferes with the logistics planning for the day's deliveries.

All the rep can do is rearrange delivery for the subsequent day, whereupon the problem often repeats itself, but this time with a different courier, and a different rep. I had this process repeat several times, over a period of weeks, until simply cancelled an order completely (one worth hundreds of pounds to the vendor).

I do wonder if higher level managers realise that delivery departments are optimising purely to make things easy for themselves, and what that's potentially worth in terms of wasted effort, lost orders and customer hostility. I guess they probably don't care, because it still saves them money on aggregate.

<comment><USER3> _I have never, ever dealt with any above mid-sized company that handles customer service and delivery well._

I have. Amazon. Over 15 years now and flawless every time.

<comment><USER4> Amazon support is absolutely _terrible_. Amazon seller support is even worse.

I mean, the worst. Only matched by health insurance companies.

The _huge_ problem with Amazon support is everyone I've ever interacted with (besides that one time I got forwarded to a supervisor) either have a fundamental lack an understanding of the English language or lack reading comprehension (or listening if phone support). They also won't or can't spend any significant time on any one customer inquiry, they need to move onto the next.

On the buyers side they understand how to refund an order which they do readily, ship items, say you can keep items that are errors, maybe some account stuff, and that's basically it. If you need them to do anything else that requires them to _understand_ your inquiry it's an uphill battle.

Basically, you get terrible support if your inquiry can't be solved by quickly pressing the "refund" button or the "ship item" button. I guess most buyers usually only need those two buttons though.

I actually think that's part of why they have such a big problem with counterfeits (and other issues). If someone complains about a counterfeit some low paid employee who doesn't really understand the problem just presses "refund order," the customer stops complaining, and the systemic issues remain.

I have a _nightmare_ Amazon seller support story, but I won't go into it for fear of spiking my blood pressure to dangerous levels. It was only resolved by me finally getting forwarded to a supervisor, who, finally, understood English.

<comment><USER5> Yeah, that's absolutely the problem they have. One time I ordered some road bike tires. Amazon sent mountain bike tires by the same manufacturer. I told Amazon. They sent me two more of the wrong tires. I told Amazon. They sent me two more of the wrong tires. I gave up. They don't read anything you write to them, they just either send you something or give you your money back.

I guess most people value money over anything else, but if I take the time to help them correct their inventory problem, it would at least be nice if they fixed it.

<comment><USER4> Very similar thing happened to me about 12 years ago.

I ordered some _glassware_ , very fragile. It was packaged incorrectly, basically shoved in too big of a box with no padding or anything. Or if there was padding it was very, very minimal. It arrived broken, of course. It would have been nothing short of a miracle if glassware survived that packaging.

Told Amazon the item broken due to poor/incorrect packaging. They sent another packaged identically, broken.

Told Amazon, same thing, they sent another packaged identically, broken.

I tried one more time begging them to package it correctly and got another packaged identically, broken.

I just gave up and decided I didn't really need it, got a refund, and continued to drink out of dollar store plastic cups. There was absolutely no getting through to them what they problem was. I ended up feeling defeated with 4 sets of broken glasses.

Another "they don't read anything you write to them" story... Several years ago I sold a memory card via FBA. The buyer returned the card, they said they were returning it because of a defect, they said "card slows down significantly after it gets half full." Amazon's wearhouse receives the return, they _mark it as sellable_ , and then _sell it (as new) again_!! _Clearly_ its not new, the problem was evident only from using it! The new buyer didn't complain or ask for a refund, thankfully for me, but the card might have been commingled (I don't recall) so another seller might have been dinged if Amazon shipped out the used card to their buyer.

If the return reason is "defective," why would _mark as sellable_ ever be possible?

<comment><USER6> > If the return reason is "defective," why would mark as sellable ever be > possible?

Hope the next sucker doesn't catch it.

Something something, free market, YOLO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> _Some will point out (and some have!) that I could have quite easily saved myself a lot of time, hassle, and lost earnings at this point by just quietly holding on to the extra Switch and saying nothing to Nintendo about it. It certainly would have saved me a lot of stress, but it was morally not something I'd ever consider._

That's his mistake right there. He was under no moral obligation to fix Nintendo's mistake for them. Nintendo had made a string of mistakes up to this point, and one of their mistakes was in his favor.

If you truly have a guilty conscience, then just throw the extra package out, because it is abandoned property.

I've had this happen occasionally. Just know that you are not responsible for stuff like this. My Dad had a similar experience, where spent weeks trying to get a company to honor a warranty, and in the end they sent him two replacement hard drives instead of one. I actually interpret this as a kind of karma. Sometimes good things land in your lap, don't reject them.

<comment><USER8> > _That 's his mistake right there. He was under no moral obligation to fix > Nintendo's mistake for them......If you truly have a guilty conscience, then > just throw the extra package out, because it is abandoned property._

Do you really want to live in a world where everyone does this?

Imagine you are a small start-up where every penny counts and make the odd mistake here and there and people take advantage of that, destroying you.

Or imagine people are kind and help point out your mistake and give back your ~$500 device.

You get to decide which world you live in, because you are creating it.

<comment><USER9> I think this kind of thing really does depend on whether you're dealing with a small startup or even an individual human that you're screwing over, or a giant implacable machine like a multinational corporation.

There's no obligation to be nice to the machine, it can't recognise it, and it won't be grateful to you.

<comment><USER10> +1. The machine analogy is excellent. You have moral obligation to humans. You may decide to have moral obligation to society if you like the one your in and want it to grow. But you have zero obligation toward a souless entity. It's a robot. Optimized for profiting from a service it failed to perform adequatly.

<comment><USER9> A human may harm a robot; or, through inaction, allow a robot to come to harm.

<comment><USER10> We should rename the constitution "the laws of biologic" and add this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I had a similar situation with a development system. It was fairly expensive and was popular. When I ordered it from the vendor, in the middle of the order their server crashed. It came up about an hour later and I found my transaction sitting there in my shopping cart incomplete, so I went ahead and paid for it. Then two weeks later it showed up at my door and I was happy. Then the next day another one showed up with the exact same transaction id.

I called the company and informed them, they offered a refund if I returned it. But I had only the one charge on my CC. Clearly they didn't have a path through their ordering systems that understood 'data corruption' as their root cause. The rep said just to keep it and if the CC got charged we could process a refund then.

Nothing for 3 months and then a collection notice from a debt collector saying I hadn't paid for the development system. I sent back all my documentation, the receipt, the cc statement etc. And explained to _them_ what had happened, but they said they didn't care. I had proved to them that I had satisfied the debt and they marked it 'retired'.

I've still got it, in a box unopened. Sad really.

</comment><comment><USER12> How embarrassing (for Nintendo). As soon as someone threatens legal you just have to tell them you'll only be engaging via lawyers and you'll be seeking to recover your legal expenses from them once the situation is resolved.

<comment><USER13> A pity that multinational companies can usually afford much better lawyers than the average Joe.

It's really not the same as threatening your neighbor with a "We'll see each other in court", for a parking lot dispute.

<comment><USER14> It's a bluff. Nintendo wouldn't involve lawyers over a Switch, it makes zero financial sense. What happened likely is some tech support drone made a threat, which the corporate never approved.

<comment><USER10> It make zero financial sense to send 3 switches. But here they are.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I'm no lawyer, but at least in the US I was under the impression that once something has been mailed to you, it's yours. A company cannot send you something then require payment or for you to return it.

<comment><USER16> My understanding in the UK is that if someone sends you _unsolicited_ goods and then tries to bill you, it's yours to keep.

But this doesn't apply to things sent to you by mistake, which certainly seems to be the case here. You are expected to return the good to the sender at their expense. Although you are expected to facilitate returning it, I doubt any court would look favourably on a company taking you to court for failing to jump through their hoops.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is my understanding, too.

Obviously I'd have _preferred_ to keep it if they'd let me, but if they hadn't freaked me out with talk of legal action and been happy to say something to the effect of get it back to us within (e.g.) 30 days, I could've organised to post it at a weekend I wasn't working.

I couldn't include everything in the whole exchange in the article, but they did suggest collecting it from a place of work - but I don't have one, just my client's site, which isn't an option for that, which was explained.

In any case the courier has now collected the Switch, so at least I should be able to put it behind me.

<comment><USER17> Have you kept a record of the courier delivery? Like a collection receipt?

If not, write them a letter, send by recorded delivery, and state that the item was collected and that this is the end of the matter.

They're almost certainly incompetent rather than malicious, so if there's another screw up you can refer them to the letter and then ignore any further correspondence.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I didn't even know you could order from Nintendo directly in the UK, I think they'd be wise to shut this down entirely and work through their retail partners. Just imagine how little resources Nintendo puts into the retail aspect of their operations in the UK. Clearly they can't even train people to do customer service properly without threatening legal action. I understand the sentiment to want to support Nintendo but I am not entirely surprised this happened, it takes hard work to run a well functioning shop/store online or otherwise.

<comment><AUTHOR> Having looked into it further it _looks_ like at least part of their operation is being managed by The Hut Group - from some contact info - and I found this surprisingly similar link from four years ago.

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25330615](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25330615)

Hard to say really to what extent there is overlap here.

Honestly I'm now starting to wonder if I should pull the article - getting it read is good, but this is more attention than I expected and I'm getting a little nervous of what'll happen next now. :-S

<comment><USER17> Don't be daft. Leave it up. As long as the article is truthful, what's the problem? Their appalling treatment of an honest customer should be exposed.

I do think you're totally overthinking this. They made the initial mistake, they need to correct it and at their expense.

They can't do anything to you. Make a "best effort" to return the item and no more. Keep a log of all your correspondence. Don't waste any more than a minimal amount of time on this, certainly don't take days off work etc to wait for couriers.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks!

I already have taken the day off work, and the courier has now collected the Switch - so the hope at least is that I'm now done with it, albeit out-of- pocket.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> >I ordered the Switch on October 16th from Nintendo's UK online store. I wanted to buy direct primarily to support Nintendo

This seems like an odd impulse to me. It isn't like Nintendo is some small mom and pop business or even that they are struggling.

<comment><USER20> Yep. And it's a bad decision too, it's just against your best interest as a customer. With Amazon, I know that if there's absolutely ANY issue with my order they will issue a full refund and/or send a replacement within 5 minutes of talking to them over the phone or using the live chat. It will be bumped up to free allocated time delivery or even delivered with Prime Now if available. I work at a games studio so we have few people ordering from Nintendo UK website all the time - and boy, there's loads of horror stories about deliveries and their customer service, I don't know why you'd order anything directly from them instead of Amazon or Argos or even(gasp!) Game.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm glad to hear that my experience doesn't seem to be unique, and I'll know for future reference.

I genuinely do think they're a great company, it's just a really unfortunate turn of events that should probably have been avoidable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> >It didn't take long to arrive — but when it did, I noticed some damage to the outside of the packaging

Author signed off on a visibly destroyed package. This is where support stops in my country(also EU). Standard procedure is to either refuse damaged package, or open with courier as a witness and make damage protocol, documented with pictures. The fact Nintendo agreed to replace it on faith alone is quite good, pestering them with phone calls all week combined with fact they somehow send two units probably flagged him as a potential fraud.

<comment><USER22> The author doesn't say they signed off on it though. Where I live, I never sign off on anything. UPS just leaves it outside.

<comment><USER21> He did, you cant receive mailed packages without signature in UK. Dropping valuables on a porch is very alien concept to Europeans.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> [https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered- merchan...](https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise)

Q. Am I obligated to return or pay for merchandise I never ordered? A. No. If you receive merchandise that you didn't order, you have a legal right to keep it as a free gift.

<comment><USER24> Interesting! I didn't know this. Unfortunately in this case the buyer is in the UK, so FTC rules don't apply to him. I hope they have a similar consumer protection rule.

<comment><USER25> [http://www.thecomplainingcow.co.uk/all-you-need-to-know- abou...](http://www.thecomplainingcow.co.uk/all-you-need-to-know-about- unsolicited-goods/)

You don't have to send unsolicited goods back or even notify the sender.

But duplicate orders don't count as "unsolicited" and should be returned - however "there should be no cost or inconvenience to you" which is where Nintendo fail badly here.

<comment><USER26> > "there should be no cost or inconvenience to you"

Cool, so OP could take Nintendo to court to recover lost wages!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> > Some will point out (and some have!) that I could have quite easily saved > myself a lot of time, hassle, and lost earnings at this point by just > quietly holding on to the extra Switch and saying nothing to Nintendo about > it. It certainly would have saved me a lot of stress, but it was morally not > something I'd ever consider.

There is no room for morals/ethics when dealing with faceless mega-companies.

You are not dealing with an individual here. Which individual would demand you to be home all day waiting for the courier for a mistake they made?

What I would do is store the parcel away unopened for a few months to a year. If in the mean time somebody asks it back, they can have it, otherwise it would go to the trash.

<comment><USER28> > otherwise it would go to the trash.

You wouldn't open it and keep it?

<comment><USER27> I wouldn't feel comfortable with opening and keeping it.

Maybe I would try to deliver it myself if the original recipient was reasonably close.

I know it's not the most right thing to do, what I suggested, but I really cannot waste my time with customer support. We are talking about the same companies that put you through the pain of bot-agents when you call them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> One, as far as we know, isolated logistics problem with some ill-trained phone operators not solving it gracefully is the claim. What am I missing that makes this story more interesting than that? Is it just because Nintendo? Or is it exactly this interesting if it were the same story but the product plumbing supplies?

<comment><USER17> If it is The Hut Group behind this, then they have a track record of this kind of cock up (re the Zavvi article [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25330615](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25330615)).

</comment></comment><comment> dis-sys I am super happy for the courier services available in Shanghai. What I experienced in the last 12 months is just shockingly good.

1\. I can order whatever I want from any restaurant I like using some apps, someone is going to show up in front of my door within one hour to have it delivered. The cost is close to 2 metro tickets.

2\. I don't need to go grocery shopping, courier guys do that for me, e.g. want to buy 2L of milk from your favourite 24 hours convenience store at 11pm? it is just a few clicks away, 1-2 hours delivery.

3\. I can send 1kg stuff to Beijing (1000km away) in 12-18 hours for $4-5, door to door service, everything included.

courier guy may not show up? that is news here. You can track where is your assigned courier guys in apps, it is GPS based. One bad review is going to cause big trouble for the guy. Companies like jd.com also has pretty cool features in their apps to tip the courier guy you like, you can offer cash/free drinks to those who provide good services to you.

not impressive enough? jd.com requests all their courier guys to dump your rubbish after delivering your stuff, just be nice and ask (in Chinese of course) "could you please take those two bags of rubbish to the bins downstairs for me?"

</comment><comment><USER30> Since there seems to be a lot of confusion about the legalities involved, with some people suggesting he should have just kept it and said nothing, I did some research.

In the UK, you have a legal duty to return it. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/30294748/can-you- keep-...](http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/30294748/can-you-keep-stuff- delivered-by-mistake) The only exception is _completely_ unsolicited goods, which you can keep. Double shipments must be returned. This doesn't change the fact that Nintendo was rather rude if the author's characterization is accurate.

> _Items that firms send to you, but you didn 't actually order are called > "unsolicited goods". You're well within your rights to keep them. You have > no obligation to send them back to the company or to pay for them. If a > company demands payment, that's a criminal offence. But this doesn't apply > to items sent to you by mistake (as happened to Robert); if the order was > sent to you twice; or if there's extra stuff on top of what you ordered. If > a firm has left goods with you that weren't unsolicited goods, they still > belong to the trader and you should try to give them back. Firms can take > you to court to recover their goods._

The situation is different in the US, you are allowed to keep all "unordered merchandise" and have no obligation whatsoever to pay or return. No distinction is made between completely unsolicited and double shipments. A legal argument could be made that a double shipment is not "unordered merchandise." I didn't find anything on the legal databases or Google, other than newspaper columnists opining that double shipments are "unordered".

US statute in question: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/39/3009](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/39/3009)

FTC commentary: [https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered- merchan...](https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise)

</comment><comment><USER31> Back in 2014, [https://store.nintendo.co.uk/](https://store.nintendo.co.uk/) was managed by The Hut Group. Not sure whether they also manage shipping, customer support, etc, or just rent out the web site, could be either way. Looking at URLs and everything else, that still seems to be the case. So not sure which company is to be blamed here.

Source: used to work for The Hut Group.

</comment><comment><USER32> This is dumb on the part of everyone involved.

No, you are not taking the moral high ground by calling Nintendo customer service and initiating a back-and-forth on what to do with the mistakenly- delivered extra product. In fact, you are probably _costing Nintendo more money than the second Switch is worth_ by doing so.

There is no reason, ever, unless the cost of the item is extremely high, to initiate a conversation with customer service when you are mistakenly delivered extra goods. The company _will_ take inventory and notice that that it was mistakenly sent. If they don't contact you about it, it's because they _want you to keep it_ because a cost-benefit analysis on their part does not warrant getting in contact with you over it.

<comment><USER33> > This is dumb on the part of everyone involved.

It may be a cultural difference. For some people it's dumb, for others it's a fundamental question of ethics.

<comment><USER34> I'm in the "if they want it back, they will contact you and ask" mindset --- it's entirely their mistake, to correct at their expense, and you shouldn't have to do anything about it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Don't know how it is in UK but in the USA no one is allowed to send you stuff unsolicited that pushes some obligation onto you. Even an obligation to return a shipping error to them.

You probably got a free Switch. And with their subsequent behaviour, a well deserved one.

<comment><USER36> Prefacing this with IANAL.

US seems to just have a more broad term for goods delivered that you didn't order and refers to it as "unordered merchandise"[1]. You're pretty much free to keep it, it seems.

The UK is more specific for what is classified as "unsolicited" and what is considered goods delivered to someone else by mistake[2]. Companies have a right to get their product back if it's the latter. Since the author did order a switch, a duplicate delivery would very likely be considered a mistake. If the author never ordered a Switch (and never paid for it) in the first place, they'd definitely be able to keep it.

Regardless, if this is the way Nintendo asked for the second Switch back, they were completely out of line.

[1] [https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered- merchan...](https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0181-unordered-merchandise)

[2] [https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/money/spending/consumer- righ...](https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/money/spending/consumer-rights/can-i- keep-goods-delivered-to-me-by-mistake)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Taleb describes how antifragile systems need to provide enough leeway for people on the ground to actually make decisions. Otherwise you can't react to unforeseen events and things go sideways. Delivery companies and support departments of large companies seem to have built a incredibly fragile system that can't even deal with frequently occurring anomalies. Reading some of the comments here those anomalies even seem to include things like red lights and bad weather. It seems to be a consistent pattern that reaching out via social media or directly to leadership is what yields the best results for the same reason the system is so fragile.

</comment><comment><USER38> In the US and if through USPS, if a package is shipped and delivered, the person receiving the package now owns it and is under no obligation whatsoever to return it. It's literally 'finders keepers':

"By law, unsolicited merchandise is yours to keep."

You solicited one, they delivered more than one. Not your problem. Note that this is for USPS. I'm not sure it holds up for private carriers.

[http://about.usps.com/publications/pub300a/pub300a_tech_021....](http://about.usps.com/publications/pub300a/pub300a_tech_021.htm)

</comment><comment><USER39> I don't know about the UK but in the US it is illegal for a company to sue or threaten you to return a package that they shipped to you if you didn't request it.

This is to prevent mail fraud along the lines of - I send you a widget you never ordered and a bill for $20. You now either have to pay the bill, or spend time/money shipping the package back.

</comment><comment><USER40> Customer service is an expense, so they want to train us to not even think of trying it. They will also give you a Hobson's choice over arbitration to dissuade you from trying small-claims court (though that may not hold up, at least for now, in some jurisdictions.)

</comment><comment><USER41> I had a bad experience with Nintendo Germany, when they fucked up my New Nintendo 3DS Ambassador package address, and it took over 2 weeks to find out what is happening with the item I paid for... Never again buying directly from Nintendo again, learned my lesson.

</comment><comment><USER42> Looks like the author deleted it.

Google cached version here: [https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gq60it...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gq60itCI3WMJ:https://headmelted.com/i-bought- a-switch-from-nintendo-and-they-threatened-me-with-legal-action-6ea77b4f1eb9+)

</comment><comment><USER43> Archived version: [https://web.archive.org/web/20171108150109/https://headmelte...](https://web.archive.org/web/20171108150109/https://headmelted.com/i-bought- a-switch-from-nintendo-and-they-threatened-me-with-legal- action-6ea77b4f1eb9?gi=b394fb864c3a)

</comment><comment><USER44> Mirror: [https://web.archive.org/web/20171108150109/https://headmelte...](https://web.archive.org/web/20171108150109/https://headmelted.com/i-bought- a-switch-from-nintendo-and-they-threatened-me-with-legal- action-6ea77b4f1eb9?gi=b394fb864c3a)

</comment><comment><USER45> Would any court rule in their favor? Is there any reason to worry in such a case?

</comment><comment><USER46> If the writer has records of his interactions with Nintendo, in particular his goodwill in returning the extra Switch, there isn't a judge on Earth who would take Nintendo's lawyers seriously on this.

</comment><comment><USER47> In my personal experience it can be quite futile in general to deal with customer support.

My goto solution is to contact the public relations people instead with the same issue and it usually gets resolved very quickly...

</comment><comment><USER48> Sounds like they're really not used to people actually ordering from their site directly. I can imagine the prices are the suggested retail prices, which no retailer will actually end up charging.

<comment><USER49>
      > can imagine the prices are the suggested retail prices,
      > which no retailer will actually end up charging.

I bought my Switch directly from Nintendo (well, sounds like it's actually via the Hut Group), and paid the RRP with free delivery. I didn't see any mainstream retailer (Amazon, Toys'r'Us, Tesco, etc) charging differently though.

I can't imagine mainstream retailers either price-gouging or discounting, unless a product's reaching its end of life or about to be superceded.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> When in a contract like this, where you paid for one unit but was sent two units, always be honest about it. Look at it the other way around, what if you paid double by accident ?

<comment><USER51> Is this huge corporation going to look you in the eye, tell you that you've over/double paid, and then return the overpayment with a handshake? Or are they even going to notice? I'm _not_ saying be dishonest about it, but let's not pretend this enormous business is going to take the initiative to make things right. They'll keep your money unless you make the call.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> This is why I buy these sort of things from Amazon.

</comment><comment><USER53> google cache: [https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https%...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https%3A%2F%2Fheadmelted.com%2Fi%2Dbought%2Da%2Dswitch%2Dfrom%2Dnintendo%2Dand%2Dthey%2Dthreatened%2Dme%2Dwith%2Dlegal%2Daction%2D6ea77b4f1eb9)

</comment><comment><USER54> Nintendo customer support in Europe is known to be quite bad. I am a day one customer for the Switch, the controller has a defective antenna (it is a well known hardware bug) but sending it back would mean to lose a lot of time with the italian customer support and in the end have all my system data wiped out. I'll just wait for them to enable cloud savegames, buy a second Switch and sell back my current one to a retailer like Gamestop.

</comment><comment><USER55> @headmelted deleted the story form Medium. I wonder what happened? Anyone have a mirror?

</comment><comment><USER56> Does the UK not have consumer protections for delivery mistakes like this?

Should have had every right to tell them to get fucked and keep the switch the second they threatened him. They sent it to him, they can eat the loss. if they don't want to then they can politely offer to get you a return shipping label and apologize for the trouble.

This type of thing sounds about right for Nintendo.

</comment><comment><USER57> Looks like you got yourself a free Switch. Enjoy it, and if your other Switch is in good condition, offer it to your son or a friend. If Nintendo threatens further legal action, take your lawyer out to dinner and spend the evening laughing over it.

<comment><AUTHOR> I perhaps should have done, instead I took the threat seriously and took the day off work to await the courier (who collected the Switch).

So I'm down another day's income, and honestly starting to feel like a bit of a mug given the responses here.

<comment><USER17> You're not a mug, you've an honest person treated badly by an incompetent company.

You would be a mug if you dealt with them again ;-)

Don't be surprised if you haven't heard the end of it. They might well lose the item and then attack you again. If that happens, do not waste any more time or money on them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> As you are a freelancer, you could easily send them an invoice for the lost time at your normal rate. They will probably pay it without querying.

<comment><USER59> Lol good luck with that. You would just waste more money and time doing this. What I recommend if you are a freelancer / contractor is to just let them know that you cannot take a day off to wait for their courier as you don't have vacation and are not paid unless you work (so that would incur financial loss to you).

So inform them to arrange a courier to come pick up the item at a specific time convenient to you (Saturday from 10am to 5pm or Mon-Thu 7pm-10pm) and it's their headache now. They have to work around your schedule without inconveniencing you.</comment></comment>


What Entrepreneurs Can Learn From Eight-Year-Olds - <AUTHOR> http://www.infochachkie.com/lemonade/ <comment><USER2> This is a great post. It's nice to know there are some real advantages against big companies during the startup phase.

</comment><comment><USER3> Nice post. I love the analogy - very creative and spot on.</comment>


What if you could create an archive of FB Live Videos? - <AUTHOR> http://facebooklive.cbots.ro/ <comment><USER2> That's something I was looking for. It's hard for my audience to find my old live videos. Sounds like a tool I would use.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Would it be a good idea to have the possiblity to create an archive of the FB live videos and arrange them by category?

Thanks</comment>


A reality show on the frontline of the German army's battle for public support - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/27/die-rekruten-the-reality-show-on-the-frontline-of-the-german-armys-battle-for-public-support <comment><USER2> Could it be that Germany's army is so unpopular as a job because of its good social security system? It seems the US has so many soldiers not because of patriotism, but because of job security and good health coverage, which is already mostly a given in Germany.

<comment><USER3> No, it's so unpopular because with the last "great military" we started a war that killed 50 million people, and exterminated 13 million people (civilians) in concentration camps. Definitely nothing to do with welfare.

<comment><USER4> As a German-friendly Euro-enthusiast, I hope that we all get to build an awesome European military in the future. That will remove the stigma for German people maybe. Cause to be honest we need German forces, manufacturing and engineering if we want to be able to be a force that counts internationally.

<comment><USER5> Sorry to break it to you, but the idea of a European military is pure fantasy. The dream of a federalist Europe was dashed beyond repair in 2008 when the bizarre twilight zone of 1990-2008 ended and geopolitical realities shattered any illusion of the "end of history". Without a federal Europe, you have no chance of a federal military. We can perhaps have coalitions and military alliances like NATO, perhaps a European military forum, but nothing more. Even Germany wouldn't allow for it unless it was ultimately in line with German interests.

FWIW, while Germany should be meeting its NATO quota (it isn't), a Germany that is too militarily powerful could be a concern (same goes for Russia). Historically, it has been bad for Europe (and don't give me the "different times" spiel). It's bad enough that Germany is the economic and political hegemon of Europe, engaging in neocolonial activity to its east (territories Piketty calls "foreign-owned countries") and ordering the continent into an ersatz unity i.e. a unity of soft German domination. The Prussian unification of Germany was a mistake, a European unification under German rule is an even worse mistake. It won't happen because the rest of Europe isn't exactly keen on playing the role of de facto vassals.

It's high time that the stragglers finally noticed that while an EU based on free trade and sensible cooperation and discussion is useful, it will never approach anything resembling a federation. It is a silly, unproductive sentiment that is at worst a distraction.

<comment><USER4> You had me at "sorry to break to you". You're a Euro-sceptic, good on you, but please spare me the condescension, it has no place in public discourse and I personally don't care for it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> 1) Canada went through a similar series of scandals in the 90s. With public opinion of the military at an all time low, with some soldiers being attacked in public, the order went out to not wear uniforms in public. A generation of soldiers drove to work in civilian clothing to then don uniforms once out of public gaze. That time is over but many still feel uncomfortable in public.

2) Enough with the reality TV look at boot camps. Basic training is like 1% of the military. It's a bit of a joke, something that everyone has to do but nobody takes too seriously once over with. You have to pass, but much like highschool, once you graduate nobody really cares whether you did well or barely squeaked through. Trade training is what counts.

<comment><USER7> Interestingly enough, Australian Defence Force personnel are not allowed to wear their uniform in public unless performing official duties. The reason for this though is terrorism concerns, as wearing the uniform could make them a target.

<comment><USER8> > The reason for this though is terrorism concerns, as wearing the uniform > could make them a target.

Curious, what is the background of that. Basically who would be attacking them and for what reason? I can't think of as Australia as an overly aggressive military power. Does it have to do with the treatment of Aboriginal Australians somehow?

<comment><USER9> Australian armed forces have a presence in the Middle East and in Afghanistan etc. We have troops on the ground in firefights, and F/A-18s from our air force conducting missions dropping lethal munitions.

Our forces have fought alongside US and other allies in nearly every major conflict, so our flag and slouch hat regalia would be well known to most on the 'other side'.

<comment><USER10> That applies to a fair few other countries with far more interfering governments, yet they don't have laws like this that I am aware of.

Do the rules even apply on home turf?

<comment><USER11> It doesn't have to be a law - just a line in a dress manual, or 'advice' given to personnel. Next to the rules on haircuts and fingernail length.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> As a side note, I'm often amazed at the presence US Army has in Germany with > 30,000 military personell and 36 military installations.

It's been on a steady decline in the past decades though.

For comparison, German Army has 178,304 soldiers.

</comment><comment><USER13> Does anyone know how to see them with English subtitles? YouTube's auto translate is producing gibberish.

</comment><comment><USER14> There's a possible translation error: The documentary follows sailors through boot camp, not marines. (German Navy is called "Marine").

</comment><comment><USER15> The more years pass, the closer to reality Snow Crash and Neuromancer and Rainbows End appear. In Snow Crash, the central intelligence agency has become a commercial entity that produces a aynducated reality show by putting cameras on their spies.

<comment><USER16> Perhaps you aren't aware that the CIA sponsored some authors of fiction and this was known, at least in part, well before these books were written.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/18/books/how-the-cia- played-d...](http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/18/books/how-the-cia-played-dirty- tricks-with-culture.html)</comment></comment>


Typeview – see what your users type before they press 'enter' - <AUTHOR> http://blog.hipmob.com/post/52064595315/introducing-typeview-see-what-your-users-type-before

<comment><USER2> So I accidentally paste something sensitive I need to edit before sending and now your servers are keeping a log of it, sent over plaintext? Highly unethical.

<comment><USER3> We looked at this more like instant search results (similar to what most search engines do already) where the server updates the results as the user types into the query box. The human operator does increase the privacy questions, though, but this wouldn't be any different from accidentally pasting something sensitive into the Google search input.

Also, we do not log Typeview information.

<comment><USER4> The difference is that search-as-you-type is immediately obvious that it's occurring. Unless there is an obvious user cue that their typing is being sent immediately across the network, I'd consider this more scary than helpful.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the suggestion - we'll include an indicator telling you when this happens, with an opt-out enabling you to prevent it from happening.

EDIT: "You" = any visitor to a site enabled with Hipmob.

<comment><USER5> It should be opt in by default.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I hope to god this does not become widespread. I type all sorts of crazy shit in text boxes. Everyone's basic assumption is that no information is sent until you hit 'enter'. Deploying this in the wild would seem like a huge invasion of privacy. Akin to turning on a user's webcam and a screen capture to turn your users into unwitting usability testers. In other words, please use this responsibly.

<comment><USER3> Brett, we looked at this more like instant search results (similar to what most search engines do already) where the server updates the results as the user types into the query box. The human operator does increase the privacy questions, though.

<comment><USER7> Woah, Deja Vu!

<comment><USER3> No deja vu: just repeating myself so folks don't have to scroll through the entire page looking for responses that may apply to their comments (they may still do so if they choose, but they don't have to).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This has been possible ever since AJAX appeared. Everyone should always assume it's happening.

Similar in concept to capturing passwords that don't succeed, in case they may be valid for other sites where the user has accounts.

(Note, I don't do either of these things, just saying that people should not be surprised.)

<comment><USER9> Well, technically, in this case since the response from the server doesn't matter, this has _always_ been possible. There are lots of pre-AJAX ways to send data to a server from JavaScript, including requesting Images (which is what Google Analytics uses) and generating dynamic iframes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This idea on its surface sounds horrible. First, it feels like it crosses some ethical lines. Second, if you help a user and tell them (or, let it slip) that you figured out their problem by spying on their typing, they will probably be horrified.

<comment><USER3> We looked at this more like instant search results (similar to what most search engines do already) where the server updates the results as the user types into the query box. The human operator does increase the privacy questions, though.

<comment><USER10> I mean, can you give a real-world example where this technology has resulted in an increase in user happiness? The only way I could see this being helpful is if you aggregated the data and made inferences across multiple users. But then, you are spying on everyone.

If you are going to use it to engage a single user one-on-one you run the risk of revealing you were spying on them. I, for one, would rather not have to constantly feel like I was hiding something when talking to my users. Users are comfortable with the idea that you can see access logs for page transitions, and use that to help assist them. They are _not_ comfortable with the idea that you can see things they typed and decided to not submit to a server.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> While this may be handy for the CSR, I could see this leading to unpleasantly surprised users if the CSR references something they typed but didn't send.

From a technical perspective this is neat, but from a user experience perspective, I wonder how they surface the fact that this is happening?

I would suspect that lots of people refine a post box's content before hitting send, without really expecting anyone to be watching what they do..

<comment><AUTHOR> The goal is to give customers tools they can use responsibly, and allow them exercise judgement. This is obviously the leading edge and we thought long and hard before enabling the functionality. One idea we have towards making visitors more comfortable with this would be to create a notification that enables visitors to see that what they're typing can be seen? Hopefully customer feedback helps us figure out which direction to go here.

EDIT: After getting feedback from some customers, we're building in an optout so that users

a. know that what they're typing can be seen, and b. can opt out of their typing being seen at all.

<comment><USER12> No, it isn't innovation. People have thought of this and dismissed it because it's unethical. Your optout won't solve this in a way that doesn't clutter the UI. And even if it is fairly loud, not everyone will read it. You'll need a clickthrough.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi Ben - thanks for the feedback (also responded to you on twitter). We've disabled the feature as of now and we'll only roll it out again once we can give visitors clear and easy options to know what's being seen, and opt out as well.

<comment><USER11> I think this is the responsible approach. Someone else made the important point that "if I choose not to send something, respect my choice".

I commend you guys for trying something new and working to make your product better, but even more now for realizing you need to think this through a bit more..

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It seems like it was created to solve a serious problem for users. As a user, however, I would feel a lot less comfortable using any website that I know has this service, if I choose not to send something, my decision should be respected.

<comment><USER3> Would an explicit flag to turn this off be better? We looked at this similar to instant search results in Google: as you type the results update. Obviously having a human at the other end elevates the privacy concerns: are there other angles we should also be looking at?

<comment><USER13> It sounds like a good experiment. Personally, I think I would always want it turned off, but if it is painfully obvious that you are opting in to allow the other side to always see what you type, it seems much better (as long as it is really easy to change this permission in real time).

<comment><USER3> We've gone ahead and disabled it while we work on the privacy and user experience. We will make the indicator and opt-out really easy to see and reach.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> An argument could be made that this is essentially a keylogger. Fine, a _selective_ keylogger, but still.

Whilst this looks useful, it's questionable if it's ethical and furthermore it may even be illegal in certain juristrictions with strong privacy laws.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for the comment: we've gone ahead and disabled this while we work on the privacy and user experience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Very intrusive. I'm never radical when it comes to boycotting sites that collect any information they can, but this is one situation where I wouldn't touch a site using it with a ten foot pole. Without a note explicitly stating that anything typed is recorded, it goes completely against user expectations.

<comment><USER3> Ryan, thanks for the pointer: we're going to turn this off while we try and fix the privacy/user experience.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Technically trivial, ethically horrible, especially if it's not disclosed to the user.

Personally I'd rather format my text on a notepad and copy/paste it to the chat than let others spy on me like that and even then only if I was forced to use it.

Which, fortunately, I'm not. This is one of the reasons I use NoScript.

</comment><comment><USER17> ICQ used to have this years ago. I think its kind of an invasion of privacy. People expect things to only be sent once they hit send, not as they are typing

<comment><USER18> Google Wave had it too.

<comment><USER19> From what I remember, Wave had it optional as they even said themselves a lot of people were uncomfortable with the idea of people seeing their train of thought (and mistakes). It's an interesting idea but it's a horrible way to treat the user.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is a privacy breach. I expect that when I type something without pressing enter it is not "out there". I only communicate when I press sent.

</comment><comment><USER21> As it's implemented I'm not a fan of the idea for much the same reasons that have already been discussed. But I think there's a way to implement it that makes it more transparent to the user precisely what is going on:

Aside from providing a banner indicating that the keystrokes are being sent, you could also show something in the conversation log window as the user types, similar to the way the CSR view looks with a small "sending..." caption above it. If you updated that with each keystroke, the user would see his message being composed in the composition field, and in the conversation log window at the same time. I don't have data to back it up, but if implemented properly, the cue would hopefully inform the user that what he's typing and re-typing are being seen by the CSR without requiring the user to understand whatever text was provided in the banner/notice (I subliminally dismiss those anyway).

<comment><USER3> Matthew, we've gone ahead and disabled it while we work on the privacy and user experience. Some more thought is clearly necessary (one of the reasons we posted here) and something like the banner solution you suggested is probably the way to go.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This is Femi with Hipmob: there ARE some privacy concerns we have over this, and as it evolves we expect to add additional notifications and controls. The human operator element does make it more privacy-sensitive, but we looked at it more like a real-time search query submission: most modern search boxes will send the query details as you type in, and show prospective results in real time. Obviously, there isn't a person staring at your search query in real time so it is more anonymous, but that was the thought process that guided this.

<comment><USER12> I think a more important part of the thought process was hubris and a lack of concern for privacy. I think you've lost a lot of potential users today.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> All, thanks for the feedback. We've disabled the Typeview functionality and rolled that update out. We're going to: 1\. Provide an opt-out on the site operator side (so a site operator can choose not to use it). 2\. Provide a clear indicator that typing information is being sent in the chat widget (so a site visitor or mobile user knows it is happening). 3\. Provide a clear, easy to reach opt-out so that the site visitor or mobile app user can opt out of Typeview (if it is enabled).

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hey HN - OP here (ayo at Hipmob). We've been working on tools to give our customers more insight on what's happening with their users. We started by just giving a typing indicator, and thought we could give our customers a hand by letting them look a little deeper. Would love your thoughts/comments here, or just email me at email@example.com.

</comment><comment><USER22> Totally a privacy concern. The opt out option should be easily accessible and not obnoxiousness hard to find.

<comment><AUTHOR> The opt out (for accounts where this is enabled) will be placed right into the chat window where the user is typing. Definitely easy to find.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

</comment><comment><USER24> This is a terribly bad idea. Don't do it. It'll hit you hard at some point.

</comment><comment><USER25> That's spyware.

<comment><USER3> This is Femi from Hipmob: we looked at this more like instant search results (similar to what most search engines do already) where the server updates the results as the user types into the query box. The human operator does increase the privacy questions, though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> If I enable hipmob.com in NoScript on this site, it hard-locks Firefox, pegging the CPU. Running 21.0 on Linux.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for spotting. Will take a look - appreciate it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I will actively _not_ use a site using this technology and if someone doesn't create a firefox plugin to block this I'll probably take a stab at it myself.

</comment><comment><USER28> Do you disclose this to users on your site?</comment>


Bcachefs needs more guinea pigs - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/7ve3h7 <comment><USER2> Bcachefs seems promising. For many, it's their hope for a filesystem that goes beyond ZFS.</comment>


"Roman Biro", complete with joke, found at London building site - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/27/joke-on-roman-souvenir-bloomberg-building-site-city-of-london https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/27/joke-on-roman-souvenir-bloomberg-building-site-city-of-london <comment><USER2> If you enjoy this sort of thing and you're ever passing through the city of London I would highly recommend stopping the Bloomberg offices and visiting the Temple of Mithras. A Roman historian friend of mine took me on a tour of the temple with the British Roman Society when it first opened. He was very impressed and told me it was one of the most faithful and high quality sites that he's visited anywhere; including Italy. Pity they threw the original temple columns into the Thames when they first found it after the Blitz.

Entrance is free and right next to Bank tube station. Though I think you need to book in advance (unless you have friends working in the Bloomberg building).

_edit: a word_

<comment><USER3> Thank you, I'm there in September with a couple of days free and my liver will appreciate the temporary reprieve from way too many real ales. This sounds right up my alley.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "Biro" is British Isles (and elsewhere?, but not US) slang for a ballpoint pen, from László Bíró, the inventor of the modern ballpoint pen.

<comment><USER5> Similar to Hoover <=> Vacuum Cleaner

<comment><USER6> And Crapper, supposedly. But that's disputed.

<comment><USER7> That's not disputed, that's just straight-up false. The earliest record of the word "crap" \-- and that's counting _just_ "crap", not the earlier words it's derived from -- is in 1846, when Thomas Crapper would have been just 9 years old.

<comment><USER8> A case of nominative determinism?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Somehow I expected a story of a modern biro faked up as a Roman find, rather than the quite remarkable stylus.

<comment><USER10> Charles Dawson (of Pitdown Man fakery fame) also did some Roman artifact faking - a fake cast iron figurine and a fake _brick_. The brick is apparently still in the British Museum collection:

[https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/col...](https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?assetId=19061001&objectId=1360197&partId=1)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I didn't know that the shape of the hexagonal pencil has ancient roots.

<comment><USER12> At the Roman baths in Bath, one of the objects you can see is a pair of gambling dice found on site. The plaque charmingly notes that they are loaded.

But also interestingly, they are wooden cubes marked with exactly the same pip pattern we still use today.

<comment><USER5> It's amazing - and yet unsurprising, the more I think of it - to think of how little has changed atl least locally.

Pick a random sentence from something written by Thucydides, 2.5 _millennia_ ago, and (barring the nouns) it's probably a completely usual scenario involving people and/or groups of people.

edit: usual not unusual d'oh

<comment><USER6> Usual, I suspect.

<comment><USER5> My ability to think one thing and write down another knows no bounds

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Fun article that I've seen posted around:

[http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Ancient/Graffiti%20from%2...](http://www.pompeiana.org/Resources/Ancient/Graffiti%20from%20Pompeii.htm)

<comment><AUTHOR> Great but where are the Latin originals?

<comment><USER12> Where's the Latin original in this piece? There's a pretty nice photo, but it's not easy to read, even magnified. And the photo cuts off before the end of the stylus.

<comment><USER14> I was able to recognise familiar words like FORTUNA, LONGA VIA, MEMORIUM, SACCULUS (sack).

<comment><USER12> Yeah,

        AB URBE ..... ...US TIBI .R.TUM .../
        .......UM .UI H.B..S M.MOR..M NOST/
        .... SI FORTUNA . ... ....... POSSEM /
        ....... UT.. LONGA VIA ..N SACCULUS EST .ACU/

isn't exactly my idea of legible Latin text, and much of that is still guessing. I wouldn't have read LONGA without your prompting it.

And since the noun is memoria, I'd bet the inscription says MEMORIAM, not MEMORIUM. Not that the picture shows it; those two letters appear to have been totally lost.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Question now is - what did they use to write upon this iron stylus?

<comment><USER16> I was wondering precisely the same thing. Looking closely at the inscription, it appears to have been made by using a pointed instrument with green color at its tip, applied one dot at a time.

<comment><USER17> Not sure if the green is original or added now to make the writings visible. To survive 2000 years that green, whatever it is, must be super-durable.

But in general, if you hit an iron rod with another pointy iron rod, you'll probably leave a mark. Do it many times, and you have an inscription. Probably took a lot of work though, so the guy who owned it probably was quite busy for some time... Maybe a long road from Rome to London :)

<comment><USER18> > The inscription was exceptionally difficult to read, partly due to > corrosion, and is only legible now following work by conservators.

The article says it is made out of iron, but wrought iron is much more likely. The Romans would have been able to make a punch out of hardened wrought iron to mark this stylus.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20547540](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20547540)

</comment><comment><USER19> Looks alot like the modern stylus that you might use on a tablet today</comment>


How to Ruin Your Company with One Bad Process - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@bhorowitz/how-to-ruin-your-company-with-one-bad-process-770c2ccef3c3#.ybk8xcdh9 <comment><USER2> [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10699423](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10699423)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10707917](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10707917)

<comment><USER3> Please only add links to other recent submissions (and flag) if the submission violates the rules. HN allows reposts if a link hasn't been discussed yet. From the FAQ:

 _Are reposts ok?

If a story has had significant attention in the last year or so, we kill reposts as duplicates. If not, a small number of reposts is ok._

Linking empty threads just adds noise.

EDIT: the article is older and was discussed back then here: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8069893](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8069893)</comment></comment>