Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview  - <AUTHOR> http://mixergy.com/chris-pearson-matt-mullenweg/

<comment><USER2> Some choice quotes from Chris Pearson in this interview:

"This can't be understated or just glossed over as if it's not true. My position at the market is pretty much at the top. I'm the most visible person in this space so everyone's gunning for me. Everyone wants a piece."

"There's no resolving this. Either you sue me or you don't. Or you continue to talk, or you don't."

"I've been arguably one of the top 3 most important figures in the history wordpress."

Regarding GPL enforcement: "When I was in college in Georgia it was apparently illegal to get a blow job. But that's one of those laws that's never enforced. So that brings up a valid question. What kind of law is it if it's unenforceable?"

"At this time I feel like my method of operation is exactly congruent with my feelings about everything."

"I don't have time for rhetoric, I have time for action."

"There's no incentive that incentivises me to do anything. All of my decisions come from within."

Also, he calls the GPL a flimsy and unenforceable license. I agree with everyone calling Matt gracious and patient. My respect for Matt shot up after listening to this.

<comment><USER3> Zuckerberg's theft robs Pearson of sleep.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference.

I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, so consider this 100% speculation based on my experience:

1\. I use Thesis to manage almost all of my Wordpress sites because it makes my work significantly easier - Thesis extends WP in many useful ways that aren't built into WP core. I'm capable of doing it all myself in the code, but it's much easier to handle it in Thesis, which I think is a major reason why it's so popular.

2\. If Thesis adopted the GPL, that means the code is open to be distributed and reapplied by anyone for free. That means Thesis features could legally be added to WP Core _without paying Chris royalties_. In Matt's eyes, that would be great - it would make WP better by incorporating many new features that users have demonstrated they like/want/need. (I'm pretty sure some former WP plugins have been added to core over time in this way.)

3\. If Thesis' features are incorporated into WP Core, Chris' very profitable business evaporates almost immediately - the value is in the added functionality, not the stylesheet, so there'd be no reason for anyone to purchase Thesis. That means if Thesis is forced to adopt the GPL, Pearson stands to lose _big time_.

4\. If Thesis' commercial license is legal (which the post at [http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the- gplderivati...](http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the- gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/) makes a strong case for, depending on the definition of "derivative work" when it comes to software), any IP from Thesis incorporated into WP Core without permission or royalties would violate Chris' rights and potentially generate a valid IP infringement lawsuit.

5\. Based on the tone of the conversation so far, I don't think Chris would ever give Matt (or anyone else) permission to use IP from Thesis in WP Core without a massive royalty payment.

6\. If Matt wants to have the freedom to incorporate Thesis features into WP Core, but doesn't want to pay Chris royalties, he'd have a vested interest in publicly pressuring Chris into adopting the GPL, which is what Matt appears to be doing. Chris finds that offensive, so he's telling Matt to fuck off and sue him if he really wants to push the issue. To Chris, a lawsuit (which will be easier to defend because his business partner, Brian Clark, is an attorney) is a small price to pay to prevent losing millions in revenue, and he believes Matt will lose in the end.

Again, total speculation, but this is the only reason I can think of right now they'd go after each other so strongly. Thoughts?

<comment><USER5> We've never incorporated anyone's code without their full participation and there's no code in Thesis I would want anywhere near core anyway. Thesis is a triumph of marketing, not technical competence. (In fact it relies on people not being able to question its incredulous claims about structure and SEO.) The few cool ideas it has were done in other themes first anyway. On a tech level, WooThemes is doing far more interesting work. (And they have been involved in core development.)

<comment><USER6> What's your opinion on that fair use argument? That's the only way I could see Chris having a legal leg to stand on. It seems pretty clear that Thesis is a derivative work, especially given that it extends a Wordpress class[1], but if a theme's use of Wordpress does fall under fair use, he wouldn't be violating the license.

It seems that if you buy the FSF's position[2] that linking from a proprietary program violates the license (meaning that linking is not fair use), Wordpress themes are definitely not fair use. But I'm not sure if that's been established in court.

[1]: [http://apeatling.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/thesis-and-the- gpl...](http://apeatling.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/thesis-and-the-gpl/)

[2]: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL#Point_of_view:_any_linking_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL#Point_of_view:_any_linking_violates_GPL)

<comment><USER5> I don't think this is a case of fair use. There is linking, which in the manner which themes work and are loaded inside of WordPress is very deep, and there is also copy and pasted WP code included in Thesis.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Trying my best not to sound rude, but Chris Pearson sounds extremely obnoxious. His analogies are all over the place and very defensive; most likely because he realizes that he is on the wrong end of the debate.

The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!

<comment><USER8> "The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!"

The license does. However, I don't think his theme uses actual wordpress code beyond function calls. I would hardly call this a derivative work.

<comment><USER9> It does actually go deeper than that, but really that's beside the point. Function calls into the WordPress code is enough.

WordPress has a public API... several of them, in fact. A theme doesn't use those, it makes direct calls to internal WP code, and it uses WordPress internal data structures. This is enough to make it a derivative work.

From [http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old- licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#Me...](http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old- licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#MereAggregation) :

"Combining two modules means connecting them together so that they form a single larger program. If either part is covered by the GPL, the whole combination must also be released under the GPL—if you can't, or won't, do that, you may not combine them.

What constitutes combining two parts into one program? This is a legal question, which ultimately judges will decide. We believe that a proper criterion depends both on the mechanism of communication (exec, pipes, rpc, function calls within a shared address space, etc.) and the semantics of the communication (what kinds of information are interchanged).

If the modules are included in the same executable file, they are definitely combined in one program. If modules are designed to run linked together in a shared address space, that almost surely means combining them into one program.

By contrast, pipes, sockets and command-line arguments are communication mechanisms normally used between two separate programs. So when they are used for communication, the modules normally are separate programs. But if the semantics of the communication are intimate enough, exchanging complex internal data structures, that too could be a basis to consider the two parts as combined into a larger program."

Ultimately, it is a matter of interpretation, but all previous interpretation, including those made in courts of law, pretty much universally agree with Matt on this one. It's very difficult to consider a theme to be a "separate program" when it's deep-linking to internal functions and data structures _and_ it also cannot run independently.

<comment><USER10> > Ultimately, it is a matter of interpretation, but all previous > interpretation, including those made in courts of law, pretty much > universally agree with Matt on this one.

There have been no court cases I'm aware of that have dealt with this in the context of a GPL program. There are, however, numerous cases where the code being called was not GPL, and they have pretty much universally ruled that the FSF position is wrong--blob of code X calling into blob of code Y does NOT make X a derivative work of Y.

<comment><USER9> In the specific context of a GPL program, no, but there is case law backing up my argument. Micro Star v. Formgen for example, held that a Duke Nukem 3D map file (which contained no code or anything else from the game itself) was a derivative work because it referenced artwork and other materials from the game's files.

<comment><USER10> A Kozinski opinion. Those are always entertaining. Most judges write very dry and formal opinions. Kozinski opens with "Duke Nukem routinely vanquishes Octabrain and the Protozoid Slimer. But what about the dreaded Micro Star?"

A key point from the opinion:

"Micro Star further argues that the MAP files are not derivative works because they do not, in fact, incorporate any of D/N-3D's protected expression. In particular, Micro Star makes much of the fact that the N/I MAP files reference the source art library, but do not actually contain any art files themselves. Therefore, it claims, nothing of D/N-3D's is reproduced in the MAP files. In making this argument, Micro Star misconstrues the protected work. The work that Micro Star infringes is the D/N-3D story itself--a beefy commando type named Duke who wanders around post-Apocalypse Los Angeles, shooting Pig Cops with a gun, lobbing hand grenades, searching for medkits and steroids, using a jetpack to leap over obstacles, blowing up gas tanks, avoiding radioactive slime. A copyright owner holds the right to create sequels, see Trust Co. Bank v. MGM/UA Entertainment Co., 772 F.2d 740 (11th Cir.1985), and the stories told in the N/I MAP files are surely sequels, telling new (though somewhat repetitive) tales of Duke's fabulous adventures. A book about Duke Nukem would infringe for the same reason, even if it contained no pictures."

They use that same notion, that the MAP file is encoding a D/N story, in dismissing the claim that it is the user making the derivative work, not Micro Star. It doesn't seem to be the artwork per se that's the problem for Micro Star--it's that it is telling a D/N story.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way!

Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk.

EDIT: After listening to the whole thing I am appalled by Chris Pearson's lack of understanding about licensing and his offensive attitude.

Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient.

<comment><USER8> "Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way!"

It will ruin his business. Anyone that buys the thesis theme will be able to share it for free (and he will have no legal recourse).

"Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk."

so does Richard Stallman. I think he is sick of the GPL zealots hounding him. I would be too.

"Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient."

Matt Mullenweg wants all plugins and themes to be open sourced because he will be able to give them out for free with the WP platform (which will result in more users and more customers for the services that he charges for).

<comment><USER9> Anybody who buys it now can share it for free. You can get online, right now, and find a copy of thesis and download it without paying a dime.

People who are doing this sort of thing aren't going to be stopped by text in a license.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> From what I've seen of the portion of the GPL in question, the definition of "derivative work" is subject to interpretation, in my mind. Something for the lawyers to figure out.

My 2 cents: Myself, I'm not convinced that a theme is a derivative work. Isn't the API documentation public? Is it not -theoretically- (although impractical) possible to create a theme for Wordpress without having Wordpress itself? (Having said that, it would also be possible to write a non-GPL blogging engine that uses the same API without seeing the Wordpress code) Also, since the theme isn't distributed with Wordpress, I personally think it's harder to argue that it's a derivative piece of work, since none of the original Wordpress code is altered.

A better source of information from a legal perspective is the guy at perpetualbeta.com, who delved into this a few months ago with a couple of posts:

[http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does- no...](http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/11/why-the-gpl-does-not-apply-to- premium-wordpress-themes/) [http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the- gplderivati...](http://perpetualbeta.com/release/2009/12/why-the- gplderivative-work-debate-doesnt-matter-for-wordpress-themes/)

From what I understand, he -is- a lawyer, and he has done intellectual property work, so his opinion, at least on the surface, would seem to have some weight. His position that "fair use" moots the GPL argument is quite interesting.

</comment><comment><USER13> I guess I'm the only one who saw Matt as the obnoxious one in that conversation? He kept putting words in Chris' mouth, playing slap-fight, and making snarky statements like, "Oh, I'll be sure to consult you in the future before I say anything." And the worst was when he said that "literally the whole legal community except for one guy in Florida" agrees with his interpretation of the GPL. That's just ignorant and irresponsible. About as bad as citing three clearly biased pro-GPL organizations as your sources for why you're right.

Look, I agree that Chris probably overstated his position in the WP community. It probably wasn't the smartest thing to call himself one of the top 3 most influential people in WP. However, I feel that his reasons for not wanting to go GPL are legitimate and for some reason Matt can't seem to understand that Chris is making a stand on principle here, not just revenue. I also understand his frustration. He's getting pounded left and right, sometimes with vicious personal attacks, mainly based on Matt's specious arguments. He's fed up, he's tired of the talk, and he wants Matt/WP to take action if they really care that much about it.

As far as I am concerned, if they really believe Chris is in violation of the license, WP can and should take action to try to shut down Chris if he doesn't comply, including legal action. They are fully within their rights to do that. But please, don't just sit back and spew half-truths and try to tear down the guy's reputation. As the old saying goes, if you're going to talk the talk, you should walk the walk.

<comment><USER14> Nobody likes going to court. It's expensive and contentious.

Matt made an impressive effort to appeal to law, ethics, the golden rule, economics, majority opinion, and more, and for the vast majority of the interview, he did it politely.

Chris essentially said, "There's no way I'm going to change my mind no matter what because it's my opinion. Why don't you sue me?"

Matt cited IP lawyers and organizations. He also cited that large corporations have wanted to challenge but decided not to.

I found it to be a lopsided argument in the most complete way possible.

<comment><USER13> I think the point here is that Chris is one of the first people to stand up and challenge the assertion made by Matt that the GPL automatically applies to all WP themes and plugins. Everyone has just sat there and accepted it up to now. Everyone on HN and elsewhere that is just telling Chris, "Oh, just follow the rules, why are you fighting this?" — why should he follow rules that may as well be arbitrary?

Even if this does go to court and it turns out that Chris is indeed in violation of the GPL, I still applaud him for having the courage to stick to what he believes in. In my opinion, the GPL needs to be tested either way. I think at this point we can all speculate, but no one really knows what will or won't stand up in front of a judge and jury.

<comment><USER15> I would have been very interested if this had gone to court to test the GPL purely in the context of themes/plugins, because to me that's the grey area. As it is, I wish (for the sake of both parties) that the matter could be settled without legal intervention. Now that it's been demonstrated that Thesis outright copies and incorporates portions of WP source code, it seems unlikely that a court decision would directly answer the question of plugins, because it wouldn't need to. (I don't think anybody argues that such copying isn't a GPL violation.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> "However, I think any astute economic analysis of economic systems of the way businesses and economies actually work would very quickly notice that a GPL does some very inorganic things to what are otherwise organic systems. So, from a systemic standpoint, on a systemic level, I disagree with the way the GPL perpetuates economies."

What on earth does that even mean? Also, he's one of the top three most important people by his own admission. Not any of the people who actually write the software that allows him to have a business.

</comment><comment><USER17> What's up with that esoteric rant about systems by Chris? What the hell is that guy talking about? Sounds like Sarah Palin.

<comment><USER12> Maybe he gets "word salad" when he's wound up. And boy did he sound wound up.

<comment><USER7> Yeah, he was all over the place. Some people just can't talk on pressure situation. Quite a few time I had to go back and listen to what he was saying and still couldn't make sense. He just puts up a bunch of words together and it makes absolutely no sense. Sarah Palin is an apt comparison.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Chris misinterprets GPL and fails to give valid argument. He even comes off as Sarah Palin of the WordPress community.

</comment><comment><USER19> Matt, much much respect for acting like a true gentleman and staying calm, you showed Chris what he is really like by letting him make a fool of himself!

</comment><comment><USER20> Wow, the amount of ignorance displayed here is significant. It's painful just listening to it, and the blatant double think -- I'm protecting my rights by disregarding your rights...

<comment><USER20> He seems to not understand the difference between lgpl and the gpl.

<comment><USER8> "He seems to not understand the difference between lgpl and the gpl."

If calling a function from a GPL project or having css/html that interact with a GPL project means that your project needs to also be open sourced, this should be a wakeup call to all businesses to not get anywhere near the license.

<comment><USER21> WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed.

<comment><USER8> "WordPress' position on what parts must be GPLed is quite clear, and explicitly excludes CSS and media. The PHP portions of the themes are the parts they argue must be GPLed."

If the portions he used only contain function calls, I wouldn't consider it derivative work.

<comment><USER21> The Southern Freedom Law Network does consider that derivative: <http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/>

(I linked this in my other reply to you as well. Sorry for the repetition, but I think it was worth mentioning in both places.)

<comment><USER8> "(I linked this in my other reply to you as well. Sorry for the repetition, but I think it was worth mentioning in both places.)"

Well, the RIAA considers copyright infringement "theft". It doesn't make either of these true.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I gotta say, I was in the audience for this and it was stunning to hear. If you have not listened to the full audio it is well worth the listen. Huge props to Andrew for doing awesome moderation. This whole thing went down because his booked guest canceled so Andrew moderated this very heated discussion on the fly.

</comment><comment><USER23> Matt Mullenweg is, in general, the nicest person in the world and if you can actually find a point of contention with him then you are doing something wrong.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm trying to see the practical reasons of why NOT to use the GPL in this specific case. If people are going to steal thesis they will steal it. GPL doesn't change that. Here's what I want yo know: how many people has chris asked to stop illegally distributing thesis? This is interesting to me as I'm releasing something very cool re: wordpress themes next week.

<comment><USER8> "If people are going to steal thesis they will steal it. GPL doesn't change that."

No, it doesn't. But it doesn't give you any right to stop people from stealing it. Someone could also come out with the thesis 2 theme, not change anything about it, and start selling it. Chris would have no recourse.

<comment><USER21> It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it.

<comment><USER8> "It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it."

Not really. Thesis shouldn't be considered a derivative work. If it is, than any application that runs under Linux should also be considered a derivative work (you need Linux to run the app..right?).

Should any app compiled using GCC be considered derivative work?

<comment><USER8> "According to WordPress' intent stated here: <http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/> the themes are being considered a derivative work. I'm not a lawyer and honestly not a huge fan of the GPL, but this seems pretty clear-cut to me."

I don't see how they can automatically assume that all themes are under the GPL license. If you make a theme that does not use any existing wordpress code, it wouldn't be considered a derivative work.

<comment><USER21> FTA:

 _"The PHP elements, taken together, are clearly derivative of WordPress code.... They are derivative of WordPress because every part of them is determined by the content of the WordPress functions they call. As works of authorship, they are designed only to be combined with WordPress into a larger work."_

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I don't understand why just because something requires Wordpress to work it is a derivative work? Surely anything designed to work on any platform would be a derivative work by that argument? The GPL talks about containing the original Program, not requiring it.

Looking at the quote below from the Software Freedom Law Center, if you replace "PHP" with "VBA" and "Wordpress" with "Excel" it would imply that all Excel macros are derivative works of Excel and so only Microsoft can distribute them.

The following is taken from <http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl- too/>, bits in [] are my addition:

 _The PHP[VBA] elements, taken together, are clearly derivative of WordPress[Excel] code. The template[macro] is loaded via the include()[whatever] function. Its contents are combined with the WordPress[Excel] code in memory to be processed by PHP[VBA] along with (and completely indistinguishable from) the rest of WordPress[Excel]. The PHP[VBA] code consists largely of calls to WordPress[Excel] functions and sparse, minimal logic to control which WordPress[Excel] functions are accessed and how many times they will be called. They are derivative of WordPress[Excel] because every part of them is determined by the content of the WordPress[Excel] functions they call. As works of authorship, they are designed only to be combined with WordPress[Excel] into a larger work._

<comment><USER9> In the case of Excel macros, Microsoft have provided a public API within which to create those programs.

This is not the case for WordPress themes. Themes use the internal structures of WordPress to do their work, not the public APIs that WordPress provides.

<comment><USER25> So what defines a public API? The Wordpress internals are all public so why doesn't that count as an API?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm like Chris. I get really emotional and passionate when I argue. ...and that's when I end up sticking my foot in my mouth.

A mentor sat me down and told me, "Look, don't let your emotions drive your logic. Choose when to be mad. So that when you're mad, people will see you're making a point by choosing to be mad."

Matt is a PR agency dream. He calm, cool, and collected. He is a frickin pro in this exchange and it's hard to side with Chris when he sounds like a buffoon.

</comment><comment><USER27> Chris Pearson generally is quite the ass. Try submitting any comment that in any way mildly suggests he might be wrong to his blog - it gets deleted immediately.

</comment><comment><USER28> Haven't seen the interview but I'll give my $0.02 here.

I use WordPress and just started using Thesis, I think it's a well designed product, albeit a bit simple, but does that it supposed to do really well. It's a nice theme, and very easy to configure either from the WP UI or via the filters/actions. It definitely extends WordPress nicely. It's by far my favorite theme and I plan on using it on my projects (and I must've tried a million themes).

Now, if Thesis becomes open source, you can forget about quality, premium themes. Without monetary incentive, people won't rise up to create a good theme, and believe me, I checked WP themes, and most them are just crap.

Second, what's the fuss? Thesis is part of the WP eco-system, and its a mutual relationship. The more Thesis grows, the more WP grows. I'm sure he has his moral views, etc, but if someone wants to create a premium product (not using WP's code) and charge for it, let them do it.

<comment><USER7> I hope thesis is not the only commercial theme you ever used. Themeforest, one of the premium wordpress theme market, has ~745 high quality themes with some publishers making 6 figures and all of those themes are GPL (to the best of my knowledge), I think this is also true for WooThemes.

The argument that making it GPL will break business is a very weak one. There is nothing, absolutely zero barrier, for someone to copy Thesis and sell it under another name, technically speaking.

<comment><USER12> In all fairness, WooThemes was not GPL from the get go. They went GPL a little later, on their own. I think their blog post announcing that said that they planned to go GPL when they felt like it was good for them to do so.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> From my understanding, only the code that interacts with the Wordpress method calls would be subject to GPL. You can abstract out the code that is not dependent upon Wordpress and avoid GPL overall.

An example of this is using RESTful APIs in a cloud environment, where your logic runs on an entirely different server.

Another example is to imagine a plugin that integrates Microsoft Outlook with Wordpress. Would Outlook then be subject to GPL? No. But, the code that sits between Wordpress and Outlook probably would be.

<comment><USER30> Doesn't every theme call WordPress methods in order to get posts, use widgets, etc?

<comment><USER29> Themes, most likely; Apps, not likely. I think confusion occurs when themes become web apps with their own internal codebase outside of Wordpress as a blog platform.

The crux of this issue seems to be a philosophical debate.

<comment><USER12> But wait. The theme documentation is public, and as far as I know, you don't have to agree to any license to read it.

IN THEORY, you could write a simple theme without even having Wordpress (albeit totally impractical). So if some mad scientist PHP programmer wrote a theme based totally on the documentation freely available on the website without ever installing Wordpress or looking at the Wordpress source, would that theme be subject to the GPL?

<comment><USER7> Thesis is more than just a gobbled up css theme, its a framework within wordpress. It won't work (the same way) without wordpress.

<comment><USER12> I don't really have a horse in this race, but from the sounds of it, Chris does seem crazy enough to stick it out in a court fight. My gut tells me he would come out the winner if it went to judgement.

<comment><USER31> As a general rule, "gut feel" doesn't predict the outcome of legal battles all that well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Themes are GPL too: (Interesting read)

<http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/>

<comment><USER10> That was not very convincing. Does program X calling functions from program Y make X a derivative work of Y? The answer, according to copyright law and numerous court cases is no. Given just a list of Wordpress functions, but no access to the Wordpress source code, can you write a theme? The answer appears to be yes from what I can see.

Such a theme cannot be a derivative work of Wordpress.

Yes, when someone uses the theme, there is a derivative work in memory. That derivative work is created by the person who is running Wordpress, not by the theme author. And yes, the theme author intended that users would create that derivative work. So? There's nothing illegal about that. It's legal, according to the license, for the user to make and run derivative works, and therefore it is legal for theme authors to provide them things that aid them in doing so (as long as those things, standing alone, are not derivative works).

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> If it's just function calls to the Wordpress code, I still can't see how it can be considered derivative. He also does not distribute Wordpress along with his theme. It's the user's job to put them together. This to me means it's separate and not derivative.

This just exemplifies the viral nature of the GPL and why businesses need to seriously consider using any code that involves the license.

This entire situation is a little hypocritical to me (for HN). Whenever there is an article about the piratebay (or piracy for that matter), there is usually a barrage of comments about how piracy is okay, it helps the content provider (because it's getting more usage), and it doesn't hurt or harm the original author.

Now that it involves the GPL (a person defending their copyright/license ownership..just like the record and movie industries), the majority here are singing a different tune. This just means that it has nothing to do with what's right and wrong, but political ideology.

</comment><comment><USER32> They talk about CSS, JS and Images being excluded from the Wordpress GPL. Isn't this 99% of what most themes are made of?

What Chris has is not a theme but more of a dynamic theme generator.

What he should do is make Thesis additionally compatible with another CMS/Blogging tool so that the claims about Thesis delivering nothing but a blank page without Wordpress will no longer be true.

I appreciate the work of the open source community and donate to projects that I use most often but I also fully support Chris in being able to make a choice as to what license he wants to apply to his software.

<comment><USER7> Of course he has the choice to put whatever license he wants, but not when he is using wordpress. If he is using wordpress he has to abide by wordpress license the same way people would abide by whatever license he put on Thesis, if it wasn't using wordpress.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> This is pretty interesting, someone did a detailed analysis of GPLed code found inside of Thesis:

[http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code- in-...](http://drewblas.com/2010/07/15/an-analysis-of-gpled-code-in-thesis/)

</comment><comment><USER33> I have not checked. Do other CMS projects force the GPL license on themes?

<comment><USER7> Yup. See Also: Drupal.

<comment><USER34> Note that Drupal specifically excludes Javascript, images, Flash, from being GPL'd.

<http://drupal.org/licensing/faq#q7>

<comment><USER35> That's what Matt's saying too. Only the PHP files in the theme are GPL.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> Guys, it's important for you to not frame your opinion solely on this interview. Take a look at Matt's tweets prior to this as well as his comments elsewhere. He's far from a gentleman or patient.

<comment><USER19> links please

<comment><USER36> Sure, I've got several...

<http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18536188489>

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/mg315/4792383313/> (Matt claiming Chris verbally abused Jane Wells)

<http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18529673700> (Matt calling Chris a "non- coder" and impugning the Thesis theme)

<http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18533505517> (Matt calling Thesis "scammy")

<http://twitter.com/photomatt/status/18535500457> (Matt blatantly patronizing Chris)

And in the interview, when Chris brings up the issue of Matt being more responsible with his actions, Matt deftly dodges the questions. As I said before, while I think Chris came off a bit wound up, it's understandable given the context of the accusations that had been leveled by Matt prior to this interview.

<comment><USER13> Totally agree here. All the comments on this post are lauding Matt for being "calm and collected," but it's still possible to be a jackass while sounding calm and collected. Chris got loud and fired up in the interview because he was defending something he believes in. Nothing wrong with that at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> I'm listening to this while posting this question, but if Matt is correct, does that mean Thesis and therefore all wordpress themes must be available for free?

<comment><USER36> No, even if Matt is correct people can still charge for themes.

GPL themes are able to be shared and redistributed however the end user sees fit.

That's the big difference. I can sell GPL themes myself for half price & they have no recourse. People can give GPL themes away for free and the developers have no recourse.

That's what the debate is about, whether themes inherit the GPL or not.

No one (that I know of) is arguing the GPL doesn't apply at all. What people, such as myself are arguing is that the GPL doesn't automatically apply to wOrdPRESS themes.

<comment><USER37> Let me see if I follow you. If Matt is correct, Chris can still charge for themes, but isn't required to make it available for free.

If you purchase Chris' theme, and sell it to me for $10, if Matt is correct, Chris has no claim against you, but if Chris is correct, he does.

Is all that right?

<comment><USER38> Almost - the GPL wouldn't apply to the CSS, JS or HTML of his themes, nor would the GPL nullify trademark and copyright. Still doesn't mean that his claim would hold up in court but it probably wouldn't be completely hopeless either.

<comment><USER39> In addition, if I purchased the Thesis theme, although the GPL would give me the right to redistribute it, I would not be able to market my redistributed theme as "Thesis", presuming that Chris has trademarked that mark.

So if I tried to redistribute the theme as "Thesis", Chris could (1) sue me for trademark infringement. He could also (2) file a DMCA claim against me (or sue me for violating his copyright), if my product included his copyrighted CSS/JS/images/etc.

These remaining trademark and copyright protections are why Matt asserts that applying the GPL license to the Thesis theme would not hurt Chris' business.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> You cant fight against open source. The masses will always side with open source. But I can't blame Chris Pearson for not wanting to mess with his cash flow. Chris needs to really start thinking Legacy > Currency.</comment>


Ask HN: Review my debate site (http://argumentclinic.net) - <AUTHOR>

http://argumentclinic.net
EDIT: I probably shouldn't repeat myself. I'll just refer you to the about page for an explanation:
http://argumentclinic.net/about/
For now, since I'm trying to set an example, I am the only mediator. However in the future, I would like (and need) to allow others to mediate as well. So far you won't see very much interesting discussion, because I'm still trying to bootstrap the community. The Drug debate is the only one that got far enough to split into subdebates. I'm also still experimenting with how exactly to go about mediating. I'd really like to get some more engaged people to see if this method actually works out.
At this point, the features include posting, creating subdebates, and proposing and joining new debates. I do have a good handful of ideas for features, but right now I'm focused on community building.
So let me know what you think. Thanks! <comment><USER2> Was this the inspiration for the site name: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM> ?

It's the first thing I thought of when I saw your url.

<comment><AUTHOR> Of course. Strangely, not very many people seem to catch the reference.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Your resume links are down:

<http://danielkrol.com/welcome/default/resume>

I like the design, but given how people react to my tastes, that probably means it's not flashy enough, or too drab or something, for most people.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. Not sure how that happened, I'll look into it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Clickable link: <http://argumentclinic.net>

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks.

Likewise for the About page <http://argumentclinic.net/about/></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What's a good tool for creating a PST/Mbox email search engine - <AUTHOR> Gmail might be better than any other system for searching through your email, but it still lacks the precision of a decent search system for your email. Is there a decent package out there that will enable you to upload your PST or Mbox file for searching? I'm trying to avoid culling through hundreds of packages claiming to do this.<p>Thank You. <comment><USER2> I'm all for splitting a task into more manageable pieces where convenient:

1\. readpst will convert your PST into a mbox-compatible structure

2a. there's plenty of tools to search _that_ (e.g. Mozilla Thunderbird)

2b. in the past, I've used "readpst -M" to just generate a set of files, and then "grep -HIrn" to search for a string, no further tools needed; you may want to look at more sophisticated approaches.

This has the advantage that all processing is local, and you're not exposing your data to some hopefully-benevolent cloud entity.</comment>


Show HN: Flight Search on steroids: find better flights through Machine Learning - <AUTHOR> https://tripdelta.com

<comment><USER2> I know naming startups and getting domains is hard, but Delta is the 2nd largest airline in the world [1]. Naming your air travel site TripDelta seems likely to raise some significant trademark issues.

[1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_largest_airlines](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World's_largest_airlines)

<comment><USER3> We talked to lawyers and think that tripdelta, as a combination of the (for us) important keyword trip and the math term delta to indicate savings, is a word creation in its own. Hope they're right. Thank you for sharing your concerns

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Cool UI, tried it on my recent flight, but for my case I could find better deal on Orbitz.

Example: WAW -> SFO (July 18, Aug 2)

IMO best: WAW -> AMS -> SFO (14h25m), SFO -> CDG -> WAW (14h5m) 1256$

Your flights are a bit cheaper, but the shortest available outbound is 18h40m.

Maybe you can tweak your algorithm to optimize for shortest flight for people willing to pay 5-10% more if that saves several hours.

<comment><USER5> @jakozaur thanks for your feedback. We are always working on new features, trip optimization is high on the list! ;).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Hm, so what's the difference between you and the other guys? Don't really get it. Any examples for additional savings I can get with you?

<comment><USER5> @cneumann81 thanks for trying tripdelta. A few examples that might explain what we do differently.

-We find hidden flights by combining rival airlines ([https://tripdelta.com/results/SFO/LON/28-10-15](https://tripdelta.com/results/SFO/LON/28-10-15))

-Our smart area search looks at every airport near your start and destination and checks every single combination to find better alternatives ([https://tripdelta.com/results/FKB/BOH/01-10-15/](https://tripdelta.com/results/FKB/BOH/01-10-15/) )

-We split your return flights into open jaw tickets ([https://tripdelta.com/results/SFO/YVR/11-09-15/YVR/SFO/13-09...](https://tripdelta.com/results/SFO/YVR/11-09-15/YVR/SFO/13-09-15/) )

-Wanna do a short world trip? Better check this one out ([https://tripdelta.com/results/SFO/BER/18-09-15/BER/DXB/25-09...](https://tripdelta.com/results/SFO/BER/18-09-15/BER/DXB/25-09-15/DXB/BKK/02-10-15/BKK/SFO/09-10-15/))

I hope this explains what we do ;).. If you have any more questions, let me know

<comment><USER6> Interesting, but how does this translate into concrete savings for me? Any concrete examples?

<comment><USER3> Of course. Look at the San Francisco to Vancouver (return) example:

Regular: SFO - YVR: $385 Tripdelta: Oakland - Bellingham (two tickets): $164

You save $221 by picking two airports that are, by locals, considered good airports (I live in Vancouver, we all use Bellingham!)

The great thing is: Even when you're not a local, you just enter Vancouver, and we know about it!

<comment><USER6> Thanks for pulling this out. Even though I assume this is a best case example, savings in that are interesting for sure. Will check you guys out for my next booking!

<comment><USER7> Thanks for that. Actually, the example above does not showcase a unique flight combination but something like this happens rather often. I hope next time you check it out you'll face something similar.

Let us know about it ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Just tried it and it did return some pretty good prices. Care to elaborate how it does that? Machine Learning could mean anything or nothing.

<comment><USER5> @harryhunt711 Thanks for your feedback. To answer your questions. We use Apache Spark with a mixture of different algorithms to analyze over 1.5b flight prices and come up with millions of new routing possibilities. Meanwhile on every request our algorithm learns from past mistakes and corrects its decision based on new data

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hi I am Max.

I am one of the co-founders of tripdelta. If you have any questions, feel free to get in touch.

We are always happy about your feedback.

<comment><USER9> It's a bit frustrating to search for flights to a specific airport and then to only receive results for a different but somewhat nearby airport. For example: SFO -> ONT or SFO -> SNA will only return results for SFO -> LAX

<comment><USER5> @ktsmith thanks for you feedback. Maybe we should clarify that . We have filter for that on the top to show only your "original results". Those show you only what you where looking for and no further suggestions

<comment><USER9> Sorry for the delayed reply. I tried the filter before I commented here and my results were exactly the same.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Nice job! UI is very good!

<comment><USER3> Thank you! Glad you like it!</comment></comment>


StereoDose - <AUTHOR> http://www.stereodose.com/

<comment><USER2> Bookmarked--thanks. How did you get access to all of this music (if you're the author)? I think more music startups would exist if it were clear how to get access to a mass of music.

edit: from the webstie, "Also thanks to Soundcloud for providing an amazing streaming service."</comment>


Ask HN: Why are Macbook Pros so common in the developer/hacker community? - <AUTHOR>

I've been baffled by the omnipresence of MBPs in leading tech companies(Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc), and also with Independent developers. Is there any reason most programmers prefer MBPs over other Windows/Linux Notebooks?<p>P.S. Even people who have no intentions of developing for the Apple iOS/Mac platforms use MBPs as their primary hackbox. <comment><USER2> They're brilliantly designed, well made, price competitive, and offer the opportunity to run OS/X along with Windows and Linux. Also, there's a point at which spec'ing out machines is an exercise in tedium, and with Apple, you pick the screen size, RAM, HDD/SSD, and sometimes processor, and you're done. That's really nice.

<comment><USER3> I do not have a MBP, but the multi OS capability is what makes it a candidate for my next purchase. You can develop iphone/ipad/OSX apps, android apps, windows apps (via VMWare) without having to buy another machine.

<comment><AUTHOR> That is a major reason why I'm considering it (or the Macbook Air) for my next notebook. Also, I believe Windows can be natively installed on Macs.

<comment><USER2> OS/X ships with very good support for repartitioning and installing Windows, if that's the way you swing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> 99.999% of the software we can run on our servers can be run on a Mac, it's (arguably) more user friendly than Linux. They're also pretty decent spec'd computers that take a while to go out of date (My 4 year old MBP runs Lion with no problems).

<comment><AUTHOR> I heard that Lion was shipped with a few issues and have heard a few people wishing to go back to Snow Leopard. Is Lion a step backwards?

<comment><USER4> There are a few issues, particularly with LDAP, but that wasn't what I meant. Lion is the latest version and it's running fine (minus the bugs present on every system) on 4 year old hardware.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Close the lid, it goes to sleep. Open the lid, it wakes up. Windows and Linux have yet to master this simple task.

<comment><USER6> The late 90's want their Linux back.

Seriously, I never had this kind of problem with Linux. I am having them now, but I have nobody to blame but myself for running a beta OS (Ubuntu 11.10)

<comment><USER7> I almost consider 11.04 to be beta. Alt-tab to switch between windows is driving me nuts (I'm using the classic interface), the new window gets some kind of focus (titlebar changes) but the keyboard focus doesn't reliably follow. And Ubuntu has jumped on the minimalist, hide previously easily found configuration settings bandwagon.

Harumph!

(But I still like Ubuntu, overall.)

<comment><USER6> I have been using 11.04 on my home machine and it feels very solid if rough around the edges. Only problem I had was with FontForge crashing under Unity and working fine with Gnome classic.

<comment><USER7> I bit the bullet and spent some time yesterday installing XFCE and fiddling with it. And now it feels solid to me again too (it was never really shaky, just irritating in my use case). Focus _reliably_ follows whatever window I alt-tab to, and I'm happy again.

I actually don't care what DE or window manager I use, my computer is just a place to hold a browser, a terminal window, and some development tools. All I require is that it stay out of my way and not make me notice it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's cliche, but mainly it's because they _just work_. The notebook itself is well designed, things rarely crash and if they do it is normally just _that_ application, not the entire system.

Hook up a monitor and it just works. Plug in a printer and it's recognized and you'll be printing in minutes. Same thing with keyboards and mice, etc. No configuration, diagnostics, downloading drivers from all sorts of different sites.

With VMWare (or Parallels if you prefer) you can run anything you need to in Windows ... with my SSD it now feels like Windows is native - it's super fast. Great for testing web development.

I switched 5-6 years ago and started to get my family and friends to switch. My mom and dad and sister are converts ... bonus there is that I NEVER have to give them tech support. It just works like it's supposed to -- and those that never want to access a command line don't have to, but for those that do it's there when you want it.

</comment><comment><USER9> POSIX-compliant OS combined with Apple's software and hardware design sense.

</comment><comment><USER10> Best engineered machines on the market. POSIX-compliant. Simple to spec. Great OS and easy to add others. Outstanding battery life. High quality components (trackpad, screen, keyboards).

</comment><comment><USER11> For me, it's so very nice to have the full power of a unix shell underneath a very elegant GUI.

I know some people will argue they can get the same GUI (or even better) in other environments, and I also know some people will argue they can get the full power of unix in other environments (ex: cygwin). For me, Apple comes with this setup out of the box, I don't waste copious amounts of time configuring it, it just works (for the most part).

</comment><comment><USER12> I guess the main reason is that it gives you access to the Linux development stack without having to use Linux :)

I personally use a Lenovo x220 with Linux on it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Which distro do you use? I'm looking to sink myself fully into Linux.

<comment><USER12> I use Arch on this laptop... if you're a beginner I wouldn't recommend it however. Ubuntu, even with Unity, is a good choice in my opinion.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It runs pretty much whatever you want to run. Unixy underpinnings along with MS Office, Adobe Creative Suite and you can run Windows/Linux in VMs if you want. The MBP will run pretty much any tool you need for whatever job you have. Also the hardware is attractive. What's not to like other than the price?

</comment><comment><USER14> You have a shell, you have access to some great apps like Keynote, OmniFocus and Papers2, and great hardware.

</comment><comment><USER15> One reason I haven't seen mentioned yet is the quality of the screens. Back when I was consulting, I was always showing clients whatever I was working on for them. A nice bright screen makes GUI's and graphics look their best.

</comment><comment><USER16> actually, the answer to your question is "Baaa Baa"--the sound of sheep following other sheep. i am going to offer a dissent here. there is no intellectual rationale for the mac worship.i think linux as as easy to work with as any mac os (and are we talking dvlpr or enduser?). & um, when was the last time you built an Apple machine customized to your needs? last i checked steve jobs didn't know--or understand--what my needs were(the guy thought aluminum was a non-conductor--genius to you, maybe...). apple products are not designed for pros(ask an apple marketing person about their swim lanes). and i think many ntwrk adms will have many unpleasant stories about mac problems on corporate networks. there was a time when apple hardware was better but june 2006 changed all that. there was a time when apple's software more closely mirrored the hacker community's push toward quality and innovation (and not just with FreeBSD) but those times are over, too. i'm going to quote a very ordinary man, who once said, "Apple is not a computer company anymore." That was Steve Jobs; and he's right. dr. jrrodriguez

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm talking developer usage. And which distro do you suggest to a developer who is starting out.

<comment><USER7> "a developer who is starting out."

Lots of people will say "this distro for that reason," etc. None are hands down better than all the rest, and all of them are reasonable.

Ubuntu is very popular, and it doesn't require too much knowledge to get started. After you've used Linux for awhile, you'll develop your own preferences and you can switch to whatever you prefer. If you want a slightly easier way to enable media, you could go with Mint, which is based on Ubuntu.

<http://distrowatch.com/>

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution#Popular_dist...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_distribution#Popular_distributions)

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions>

The timeline graphic of that last one is interesting, it shows how each distro is derived from its parents.

EDIT: It doesn't matter overly much, just start somewhere.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you. I've tried Ubuntu before, so I guess I'll have to check out Mint as well. It was recommended by a few of my friends as well.

<comment><USER17> the new Mint Debian with Xfce is awesome and really user friendly.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


How Math Got Its 'Nobel' - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/10/opinion/sunday/how-math-got-its-nobel-.html <comment><USER3> I always had mixed feelings about Alfred Nobel. A person who spent his life producing guns, then created the Nobel prizes, who often go to people that absolutely do not deserve it for _political reasons_ ridiculing the prizes (e.g. Nobel for peace to Obama, G. W. Bush run for it and came 2nd!), but economics Nobels is also highly disputable.

As for Math the article states:

> Nobel omitted mathematics simply because it was not as important to him as > other endeavors were.

Any person who has looked at any science at even small depth needs mathematics to _express_ concepts. Mathematics are the _lingua franca_ of the universe. You can't do Physics, Chemistry, Biology or even social sciences like Economics without a basic understanding of mathematics.

So IMHO Nobel (as I said I have mixed feelings for him), new that mathematics _goes without saying_ and didn't create a Nobel for Mathematics. The fields medals is an excellent prize though, so IMHO there's no real gap.

<comment><USER4> > A person who spent his life producing guns

Explosives.

>G. W. Bush run for it and came 2nd!

You don't "run for it", and the information about who "came second" is never released, so I don't know where you heard this, but it's not true.

Not that I disagree with your point about the Peace and to a lesser extent Literature prizes being horrendously politicised.

If I were the Nobel committee then each year I'd give the Nobel Peace Prize to a random civilian somewhere in the world who minds his own damn business.

<comment><USER3> True explosives (dynamite and all) was his thing... But on the moral side of things it's the same.

For GW Bush I am reproducing what I ve read, but might very well be FUD, thanks for pointing that out. :-)

<comment><USER4> >True explosives (dynamite and all) was his thing... But on the moral side of things it's the same.

Without getting into the morality of gun technology (since the morality of a gun rather depends on whose hands you put it into), I'd say it's rather different because guns are used primarily as weapons whereas most of the world's explosives are used for peaceful purposes, in mining. Dyno Nobel is, to this day, one of the world's biggest suppliers of mining explosives.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Here's a good article from *Mathematical Intelligencer" on the topic (sorry, a bad scan): [http://astro1.panet.utoledo.edu/~ljc/mittag2.pdf](http://astro1.panet.utoledo.edu/~ljc/mittag2.pdf).

</comment><comment><USER6> According to Wikipedia, the Abel Prize is considered by some as _the Nobel Prize of mathematics_.

<comment><USER7> It's an analogy to explain to people the prestige and honor that comes along with the prize. There's no official ruling to be found on which one is considered to be more like the Nobel prize, and it really doesn't matter.

The Fields Medal certainly has history and pedigree behind it (the Abel Prize was first awarded in 2003), but it also has some oddities, like the fact that it has an age limit, which means you won't get prizes for many mathematicians' seminal results, which often come after decades of work.

<comment><USER6> > It's an analogy to explain to people the prestige and honor that comes along > with the prize. There's no official ruling to be found on which one is > considered to be more like the Nobel prize,

Um, you really don't think that I know that? "like the Nobel Prize" clearly means that it is the most, or one of the most, prestigious prices in its field.

I continue to use the term in the colloquial sense that the article uses. What's so hard to understand about that?

EDIT: that's a decent amount of downvotes for a thread with relatively few comments. I'm impressed, people!

<comment><USER7> > _What 's so hard to understand about that?_

Understand what, exactly? Your original post didn't make it at all clear what you were posting about, so I assumed you were attempting to contest the honorific, though, again, for no clear reason. Apologies if I assumed incorrectly, but there wasn't a whole lot of context to go on.

<comment><USER6> It's a fairly neutral statement - some mathematicians (I'm not even stating _my_ opinion) _apparently_ think that some other prize might have the status of "the Nobel Prize". I mean, that's the whole fucking point of the post - <USER2> make a note of the fact that this other prize might not be the most prestigious prize _in some people 's eyes_, that some other prize might have the same level of prestige. Not to diminish to the Fields Medal, but to add a somewhat relevant factoid to the thread, considering that the article was so focused on the Nobel prize-like status of the Fields Medal. But of course since this is a somewhat typical Web forum, people have to assume the worst intent and try to snipe it, forcing me to belabor the original point which only needed one sentence to express.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8>
      > Many mathematicians will tell you that Nobel omitted mathematics from his
      > prizes to spite the Swedish mathematician Gosta Mittag-Leffler, a rival

The one I heard, as a math undergrad, was that a mathematician took Nobel's wife to the limit in the horizontal plane.

<comment><USER5> This juicy gossip fails to die, please see, e.g. [http://www.snopes.com/science/nobel.asp](http://www.snopes.com/science/nobel.asp) for a nice debunking. For one thing Nobel never had a wife. Also, he emigrated from Sweden in 1865 when Mittag-Leffler was a student and rarely returned to visit.</comment></comment>


Tesla needs to sell more expensive Model 3 so the company doesn't die, Musk says - <AUTHOR> https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/21/17376136/tesla-performance-model-3-specs-price-base-model <comment><USER2> My brain may have been warped by studying economics, but selling a low margin product over a high margin version when you are constrained in capacity just seems idiotic. This is like asking why Tesla doesn't burn large piles of cash in the street.

</comment><comment><USER3> CEO of Business says that Company must sell more product and increase revenue in comparison to costs in order to survive. Film at 11.</comment>


Creative minds 'mimic schizophrenia' - <AUTHOR> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/10154775.stm

<comment><USER2> _"Creativity is uncomfortable. It is their dissatisfaction with the present that drives them on to make changes."_

Guess a lot of entrepreneurs feel the same way. Not saying, that everyone who starts a small business is a genius, but I think most people who do, feel uncomfortable in "normal" society. Otherwise why would they risk it all, while eating cheap food and working a lot more than at a 9 to 5?

I read the biography of van Gogh. He was in constant mental pain (based on his letters to his brother) and did not fit in anywhere. He tried learning math (if I remember correctly) 18 hours a day, also tried being a dedicated pastor, etc. He just did not fit in anywhere, until he started painting and drawing. Of course, he didn't fit in the mainstream painting trends either, but I don't think that matters, because the mental discomfort would not have stopped even if he got rich or famous.

Also Dali has wrote a diary, which I heard about before. I will definitely pick it up at the library and read it.

<comment><USER3> Well, you don't need to be a genius to be creative. Also, who is to say that some entrepreneurs aren't geniuses? Just because they apply their intelligence to business instead of writing novels or proving theorems, doesn't mean they can't be smart.

<comment><USER4> I think human beings, and animals for that matter, are naturally entrepreneurial. In the wild, those that aren't would die a quick death. Its only when there was work that could be done by non-entrepreneurs that they began to thrive. Well, subsist anyway.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> More reason to be conservative with brain-altering medication.

Unless you _want_ a world without creativity. It'd be easier to control, at least.

</comment><comment><USER6> Engineers are frequently ADHD (citation?) Can Engineers be called creative? Or is it an entirely different mental illness?

<comment><USER7> Those who suffer from ADHD are notoriously known as "idea people": highly creative, but poor in execution. Like schizophrenia, it's been suggested that their inability to consistently filter out distractions is the cause, though it seems that different areas are affected.

<comment><USER6> There are also phases of hyper-focus. I use those to find devious bugs, design tricky parts of code, architect. The rest of the time I fill in code, test, document, package etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Are creative people unemployable?

<comment><USER9> It depends where. There're several companies that thrive on hiring creative people and then giving them nearly free reign - Google, finance, think tanks. They tend to be fairly hard to get into, because there are a limited number of positions open for creative knowledge workers and a lot of people who think they're creative.

Also, in many cases you have to "pay your dues" before you can do high-level creative work. This is not because management is cruel, but because "thinking outside the box" requires knowing where the box is. If you take a bunch of random people with no experience in a field and ask them to dream up wild-eyed solutions to outstanding problems, many of them will come up with the same wrong answer. If those people then learn a little about other ideas that people have had and why they didn't work, _then_ they can come up with novel, original contributions that actually work.

<comment><USER10> "[F]inance" or "think tanks" is kind of broad. You probably mean small- to medium-sized hedge funds in finance (or their equivalent prop desks, as far as they still exist, in investment banks) because otherwise I can't think of finance as a place for creative natures. Most bank divisions and asset managers have set rules and procedures for everything and force you into using their software (environments), like Excel or Matlab or C# or Windows. I'm not saying those are bad in general, it's just I myself hate them and there's absolutely no way I could work for an operation that uses them, which precludes me from practically 98 percent of firms in the industry (ok, I pulled that one out of a hat). Also, although I generally agree with Merton's point that "first you have to show you can do it like them, then you can show you can do better", I think more and more this applies only outside of "paradigm shifts" in Thomas Kuhn's sense. During such shifts, or to propel them, one may do better by totally disregarding the viewpoint of the old guard and "just do".

EDIT: Of course, one would still need to have thought enough about the "old" way of doing or explaining things that one would know why the "old" way failed, in a fundamental way. For example, I think in economics and finance, the fundamental failure is not so much in the statistical assumptions (that is actually a pretty cheap shot to make, theory-wise, Herr Taleb!) but in aggregation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Again? At least this article doesn't even purport to be backed by any published research. Mention some brain scans, toss up a CG image of a brain, and for good measure, start 'em off with a nice photo of Salvador Dali.

<comment><AUTHOR> The article drops a couple of names. E.g., Fredrik Ullen, from where I got [http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100518064610.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100518064610.htm)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Regarding losethos's message:

I'm really curious how that nonsense text is generated. Presumably it's not totally random - and perhaps "Incurable" and "Pays the bills" are frequently queried search terms. I wonder what else went into that algorithm. At the same time - what's the point of a post without a url?

<comment><USER13> [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Markov_chain#...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Markov_chain#Markov_text_generators)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Exceptionally creative people are frequently eccentric. Eccentric people are not frequently exceptionally creative.</comment>


Synology replacing user certificates with their own revoked one - <AUTHOR> Looks like Synology devices are replacing valid certificates installed by users with their own revoked 'synology.com' one after each reboot.<p>If you have HSTS enabled, the only way to access the NAS is to disable checks which puts you at risk of MITM attacks. <comment><AUTHOR> FWIW i've just verified this on a DS1019+ running the latest DSM. My certificate disappeared after rebooting and the default synology one (which I had deleted) reappeared.

<comment><USER2> Same here!</comment></comment>