Breaking a WoW addiction - <AUTHOR> http://www.pixelpoppers.com/2010/12/doing-my-dailies-why-i-quit-wow-and.html <comment><USER4> It seems to be stated as a fact in this discussion that you can't play a game such as WoW and do anything other productive on the side, but it's a lot more nuanced.

Anecdotally, I've been playing WoW almost non stop since it launched and have been raiding once to three times a week. During this time I also got married, had a kid, founded Shopify, overtook the CEO role, grew it to be a multi million dollar business. In this community that seems far from being a failure.

I'm engaging in anecdotal junk science here but my theory is that the people who really loose themselves in games like WoW are people with very poor time management skills. I'm convinced those people have always been around before. However, previously almost all activities came with some inherent caps on the time you can productively spend on those. All sports wear you out and force you to stop after some time. TV repeats pretty quickly and there is no original content during the night. Reading works but that's a socially fully acceptable timesink.

WoW is just extremely good game that fulfills a lot Maslow's needs, especially the top ones. There is a great asymmetry in the lure of this game and the established defenses of some people.

I think one of the key parts of parenting for our generation will be to equipt our children with the time management skills and the willpower to handle and enjoy games like WoW properly.

<comment><USER5> _I think one of the key parts of parenting for our generation will be to equipt our children with [...] the willpower to handle and enjoy games like WoW properly._

How do you do that?

<comment><USER4> I don't have the answer to it yet. However, it will likely involve exposing them to WoW or it's equivalent and then showing them how more long term sound activities can be even more rewarding.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> What WoW needs to do is start hooking in-game rewards to real-life rewards.

For example, a deal with 24 Hour Fitness where you need to attend for 30 days in a row to unlock some kind of sword. The biometric system at 24 Hour is now sophisticated enough to permit this kind of tracking [with your permission of course].

I'm completely serious. This is an inversion of the Zynga model in which real life money is exchanged for worthless virtual goods. It's more like worthless virtual goods are dangled as an incentive for real life improvement.

There's a lot further you can go with this concept (hooking it up to location based apps, for example), but if we're talking about a "game layer on the world", start with converting an unhealthy dependency into a healthy one.

<comment><USER7> I love the idea, but why does WoW need to do this? Any game could do it. A fitness club is especially well-placed to accomplish it.

Hmm... I think it could also work well as a Facebook app.

I'm going to mull this over and see what I can come up with. This could really drive society to improve itself in all kinds of ways.

<comment><USER8> I think people's participation would be much higher in such a program if the rewards were linked to an existing platform.

People have been trying to game-ify real life for years and its never gained much traction. I think this is because people have to sign up for something additional, and at that point (unless the program gains a lot of steam with a lot of people) there's not much tying individuals in.

<comment><USER7> Right, but that platform could just be "social bragging" through Facebook, other websites, and other methods entirely. It's as simple as showing off to your friends the cool things you're learning while encouraging them to do the same. Meanwhile, those same friends are able to observe the changes to you on a personal basis. It's inherently social and viral; I don't think it really _needs_ to leverage an existing platform at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Caveat: it's very easy to extend the criticism of WoW to life itself.

Working all these years to be a paramedic, going to school, going to work, for what? To drive some people to the hospital? They're all just going to die anyway. Life is meaningless!

What the author is really saying is: "I find more meaning in the real world than in WoW."

But this isn't necessarily true for everyone.

Having said all that, I think WOW is more dangerous than heroin.

<comment><USER10> There is a substantial difference between improving your physical life and your Avatar.

The illusion of success is there and almost tangible - if you didn't have to "wake up" to your neglected real body and nonexistent/handicapped real life.

And most people I know don't play WOW due to nihilism or at least not initially. They play it just for opposite reasons - it makes it easier for them to achieve _something_.

Disclaimer: I have played UO and got severely addicted by it. I also played WOW and EVE, I'm very competitive but in the end I figured that to reach the level of performance I wanted to - It would take me 8+ hours (rather 12+) of work a day. So I just quit the damn thing and focused on building my real person - no regrets. I saw WOW at a friend some months ago - and I instantly felt sick, the sounds, the animations... It just made me want to throw up.

<comment><USER11> If you are leveling in real life sometimes you wake up and see emptiness of this all. Sure, what you achieved in life provides comfort for your body but body is relatively easy to comfort if mind is happy.

If you are playing game all the time there is not much time you have to be "awake" and you may even never be fully "awake" to notice and appreciate your handicapped life.

People can have handicapped life even when they don't play games. They just stay for years in the same place despite their apparent efforts.

<comment><USER10> Indeed - human mind is capable of creating many elaborate delusions.

Nihilism being the worst of them all. One has to recognize that indeed, there are no supreme values, that there is no guaranteed path to _salvation_. And that in spite of this terrible truth one must form his own set of values that guide him on a journey that doesn't really lead anywhere specific, but one must travel the journey else he becomes damned.

<comment><USER11> Why not just accept that is pointless after becoming aware of it but just stay for the ride?

<comment><USER10> Do you think that Paris Hilton is happy? Do you think that the OP's guild leader is happy?

Man is a creature of creation, to be happy Man has to improve upon himself and the world, to create by definition one needs to have some values. Else we just become decadent and decadence does not breed happiness.

<comment><USER9> People in wow ARE creating. That's what makes it so addictive.

They are re-arranging the materials of the game to create something they desire.

This is the same procedure people use in real life - we rearrange matter and energy to create conditions we desire.

There is nothing inherently more meaningful in reality compared to fiction. All of these things are exactly as meaningful as individuals find them to be.

Some people value wow for itself and there is nothing wrong or incorrect about this. Does it scare you to recognize that there is no logical basis for action?

The basis is emotional. Meaning itself is a word we use to refer to that emotional experience that occurs when we begin to care about life. Some people find it in collecting stamps, some people find it in wow, some people find it in medicine, some find it in the game of being a corporate executive.

None is logically or inherently more meaningful than another. It all comes down to irrational human values.

<comment><USER10> I played wow - so I know pretty well whats going on there - at least in the game circa 2005/2006, before the additions of casual content.

Road to 60 was actually pretty fun - but once you hit 60 - thats when it really begins. If you want to mean something, you have to raid almost every single day for 4-6 hours - else you don't get a guild and there are no casual raiding guilds since content is so hard that you need to be well versed to get it done.

I'm well aware that one is playing wow because it makes sense emotionally not rationally - but there is difference between "positive emotional action" and "negative emotional action" (meaning, repetition - grind, peer pressure, job like schedules,...).

So I would argue that no, people in WOW are not creating, they are destroying the very fabric that creates society.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> As someone who has played and stopped WoW for significant times over the past years. I think the article has some valid points about the addictiveness of WoW, on the other hand I feel that the choice between "real" work and WoW as presented here is a false dichotomy. "Real" work and WoW are not mutually exclusive.

The writer says he started playing he has spend his time working out. I started swimming for 40 minutes each day while playing WoW, a habit I continue now that I stopped.

He also states what if you spend the time you invest in WoW into achieving your goals. But you can't just work 24/7. I spend 8 hours a day doing research and hacking at the university, when I get home I just don't have the focus left in me to code or study. In the past I spend this time playing WoW, right now I spend this time reading fiction or hanging in front of the TV.

Now probably there are people who lose themselves entirely to the game and can't bring up the discipline to also work on their goals, but as everything in life, its really just about balancing yourself.

PS - I actually found myself being more productive during my WoW playing times then during my non-playing times. Reason? If I needed to do something I would not allow myself to log in until it was done. WoW was more addictive then procrastinating so I'd just knuckle down and do it. Now if I need to do something I find myself reading HN instead of just doing it...

<comment><USER9> >I started swimming for 40 minutes each day while playing WoW

Waterproof laptop?

<comment><USER12> I hadn't even noticed that ambiguity. I blame fever headache + English as a secondary language. Anyway, that cheered me up despite the headache :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Is playing a social game where you interact with other people any different than going out to a club or bar? Joining a bowling league? A cycling group? A health club where you go to regular group exercise classes?

The meme that video games are inherently evil needs to go away. Why is it socially acceptable to join many clubs and spend time with those people all the time but not "people on the Internet"? Like the Internet is somewhere only people that can't make "real friends" go..

Addiction to anything is bad but playing WoW or any other online game doesn't mean you're automatically "a loser" in the rest of your life -- and I don't mean just casually playing. There are people in all of the top guilds achieving high ranked world kills on new content that are also successful in other areas of their life.

<comment><AUTHOR> In principle, sure, but the point is that WoW is indeed especially addictive in a way that a bowling league isn't.

<comment><USER14> What, the same social pressures don't apply in other team sports? Try to play any sport at a high level and miss a few trainings because you'd rather read a book at home. You'll get bad looks the first time, yelled at the second time and kicked out the third time.

(I'm not saying WoW is a sport, just to pre-empt a diversion in that direction).

What is morally superior about exercising an hour a day over playing WoW an hour a day, provided the lack of exercise doesn't make one dangerously obese or similar? Yet all rants like this one are based on that premise - 'I used to be such a loser, now I work out, I'm so much better than those WoW losers'. Usually from former players, too; just like former smokers are the most obnoxious about how awesome they are for quitting, the former WoW players seem to know something about self-righteousness, too.

Anyway, like anything, it's about moderation. If you play a couple of hours a week and don't let it take over your life, there's nothing wrong with it. I asked my girlfriend to set up the 'parental control' feature on my account, so I only got to play 4 hours a week. If anything, WoW at least lets you do that; I have yet to see the first skateboard or piano that has a lock like that, and there are many people who 'waste' (in the article's definition, not mine) much more than 4 hours a week on those.

<comment><AUTHOR> I didn't realize that about using the "parental" control. Great example of a commitment device! And that's what I really mean about the difference between WoW and most other hobbies and social activities: WoW sucks you in in a way that makes you regret the amount of time you spend on it. I sometimes have the same problem with Hacker News, hence this: <http://beeminder.com/d/hn>

<comment><USER15> This is brilliant. I think people here can rail against addictions to WoW while lurking/posting on HN for hours a day. It's all part of the same addiction for points/prestige/social validation.

"Posting all these years to get higher karma, reading the source articles, reading the comments, for what? To help another person who thinks they have an innovative startup idea? They're all just going to get bought by Google anyway. Life is meaningless!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Here's my perspective as the friend of someone who became addicted to WoW:

I lost a potential programming buddy/co-founder. we used to collaborate on projects, but eventually WoW took up all his spare time. We both graduated with CS degrees, but he is now unemployable. He played WoW instead of working (he worked from home), and has never spent any time outside of work maintaining his skills. I say worked because he no longer works. Hasn't for the past 3 years. Right now he's into starcraft. It's frustrating to me that he and others I built relationships with in college have chosen this path.

<comment><USER17> What enables him? Why can he keep playing and not have to worry about paying rent or having enough money for food?

I play quite a lot of videogames, and I play wow, but I'm a grown-up, I have a job, I have a home, I buy my own food, I pay my mortgage, and if I fail at my job, I'll starve and lose my home and my ability to play videogames. Why hasn't your friend come to the same realization?

<comment><USER11> You picked home ownership and you pick food according to your income. If you fail at your job you will starve and loose your home because you entangled your burdens with your paycheck.

Perhaps his friend choses food and roof far cheaper then he could afford in order to have more time to spend freely not on paying for those.

<comment><USER16> His wife supports him.

<comment><USER11> Then last sentence of my comment does not apply to him. Just me. :-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I play WoW for five years now. When I started, I used to be an occasional player. But when I hit level 60 (that was the highest level a few years ago) it was impossible to advance further without being in a regular raiding guild. So I started hardcoring: obligatory raids from 19:00 to 23:30, each evening, five evenings per week. Lower attendance was not tolerated. And gathering/grinding materials for potions/powerups afterwards, util 01:00 or so. This took place in a few months around the summer of 2006. The reward was worth it: access to all high-level content, epic items, and being member of the most succesful guild on the server. However, after a few months hardcoring like this, the game felt more and more like a boring job. One day I realized that with this playing style, I would quickly lose all interest in this game, which I didn't want, so I quit the guild (only hardcorers were allowed to stay in) and changed to a casual player, which I still am today.

I didn't want to quit altogether because there was so much more game content to check out (I enjoy the sights & sounds of WoW very much), and so many other classes to try. Up until then I played exclusively Holy Priest.

Blizzard must have somehow realized that players weren't able to get any further without hardcoring. The last years they have created more and more features for the casual player: the Dungeon Finder system, player-vs-player battlegrounds, cross-realm instances, other reward systems; all these have lessened the dependence on a guild.

I now sometimes fire up WoW, not everyday, and play a few hours. I still like it, after all these years (and 3 expansion packs).

<comment><USER19> I don't know how casual you are or how long it's been since you last played, but Blizzard flipped everything around for casual players not in a guild with Cataclysm. Those features you name are still there, but now they're next to rated BGs, guild achievements, and more features you can only really get while playing with a group of other players, i.e. a guild. Even basic non-raiding perks like 15 minute hearth and increased xp/rep gains are tied to guilds now.

I had an alt that wasn't in a guild or cared to raid that just recently joined the <reddit> guild because I really wanted those perks while being in a guild that didn't demand anything of me. I only raid a very strict max 3 hours 3 weekdays a week on my main toon in another guild and I refuse to tie myself down with raiding on a second one, and <reddit> is perfect for that...people are always online to play with, raids are always going on if I ever want to check them out, but I'm free to stay in the guild with zero commitment towards any time sink and I can solo all the content I want. You might want to check out joining a similarly large and open social guild for yours.

<comment><USER18> Ah, I've always stayed in friendly/social guilds, just not the hardcore guilds anymore ;-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Game makers (and some website owners) are discovering what some religious and cult leaders have known for thousands of years: you don't have to give somebody a drug to make them an addict. People are perfectly capable of generating their own addictions without external chemical help.

I _think_ what's going to happen is that we come up with a new moral code -- much like the thing where drinking before a certain time was considered bad, or the idea of doctors prescribing pain pills for themselves anathema.

But really, it beats me. We have a generation of people addicted to a sedentary activity in a way that's never happened in human history. It's very difficult to predict how all this will play out.

<comment><USER21> > We have a generation of people addicted to a sedentary activity in a way > that's never happened in human history.

Heh. Heard of this other addictive sedentary activity that people call "TV"?

[http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/americans-...](http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/americans- watching-more-tv-than-ever/)

The _average_ America watches 153 hours of video per month (2009). 5.5 hours per day on average.

Looking up TV addiction yields many very similar articles.

I expect that some people are more susceptible to gaming than TV, and others the opposite.

But the results from TV seem very comparable to gaming: some is probably fine, maybe even beneficial depending on your choices. Too much is bad for your physical, mental, and social well-being.

kb

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> eeeeehhh. As a very avid WoW player of some years now, I would say WoW is something that can easily be something that holds your "life progress" or whatever you want to call it back, but it can also just as easily be played at a successful level (define that however you like) without that effect as well.

In the guild I'm in now and a guild I was in in the past I see both: players who are quite literally on welfare or unemployment and just play WoW and other games all day (colloquially "living the dream", mostly tongue-in-cheek), while others have what I would consider successful lives. One of our best priests works as some sort of company programmer or server maintainer/admin. Our best healing druid entered his first bodybuilding contest sometime in September of this year and plans on doing another next August iirc. Our guild/raid leader has an office 9-5 selling toys to retailers or something like that. Lots are in college, myself included. An old guild officer of mine was a Googler. A decent amount have wives/kids/gfs/main squeezes. etc.

I think the best argument of the post is the social obligations point. There are definitely some people who do "no-life" for the guild and such, but again, I think this is a some do some don't thing (as well as being limited to basically people in guild leadership situations). For every guild leader or officer I know who hasn't left a dead-end guild because of a feeling of obligations to the guild, I probably know twice as many officers who did left anyways, and 3-4x as many raiders who did as well. Anecdotally speaking, I left a guild where I was probably next in line to be guild/raid lead for a much better one, and am now debating doing some sort of ESL teach/travel program next year despite having been an officer in my new guild for roughly 6 months now.

<comment><USER23> You discuss how WoW either hold back life progress or doesn't. Have you (or anyone you know) encountered a case where WoW has helped someone?

<comment><USER22> Depends on what you define "helped" as.

I don't know anyone personally who has say, gotten a job or learned a new tangible life skill from playing.

I can say for myself at least that I have met a lot of people who I would call friends without hesitation, most of whom I would love to meet up with in real life someday. It has also made it easier for me to connect with RL friends as well. Half the reason I started playing was so I would have a way to play with some longtime RL friends while they were living at U of I in champaign and urbana.

Intangibly I feel like I have learned a lot about how to communicate with people, particularly from a leadership position. Since communication over text or in ventrilo doesn't have all the physical queues of face to face interaction, you learn to speak with more clarity and precision as time goes on. I feel like it would be pretty easy to be a successful manager of some non-technical sector of work like retail based solely on what I've learned from being an officer in WoW now as well as being an officer in Runescape back when I was like 13-14.

Edit: PS. I forgot a big intangible: I've had a lot of fun playing over the past couple years.

<comment><USER24> >I can say for myself at least that I have met a lot of people who I would call friends without hesitation, most of whom I would love to meet up with in real life someday.

It seems like it would be a good thing if guilds could be set up based on the geographic location of the players. If you had a reasonable chance of making "real life" friends, a lot of the objections to MMOs that aren't made to, say, a ski club or a bowling league, would go away.

<comment><USER19> I disagree. I think a lot of people that play with others geographically close to each other already know each other in some way and the reverse would not necessarily be the same. I mostly play with two "real life" friends, and most of the groupings of people I know in my guilds are couples, friends from college/home, coworkers, and similar. It's usually not "oh we know each other after we found out in-game that we're geographically close".

For every interesting person I have met in WoW, I've come across someone I can't even begin to describe...social misfit, awkward, creepy, misogynist, immature, stalker doesn't even begin to cover it. Whenever I find a random group of people to raid with, I am afraid to talk in vent/mumble because I don't want to give away the fact that my voice gives me away as being a very, very valley girl/California English spoken woman. The few times I slip and talk, some players didn't care but others split off into various assumptions, usually along the lines of my being incompetent by being female or "no way, she's a girl! (I'm going to harass her in whispers now!)". The few that didn't care and judged me based on my actual performance were the ones I ended up really appreciating being grouped with and that in turn were the ones that outright told me that they were sad to see me go before I changed servers a couple months ago. The ones that assumed I was dumb, well, I had an ignore list longer than my arm by the time I moved away. Moved away to a guild where I vetted the GM and his guild for his female-friendliness and zero tolerance to harassment first above all other concerns, including raiding. (And for what it's worth, I left my very first WoW guild because I couldn't stand even the smallest playful insults anymore. Starting with "you sure do get around" for getting an achievement for exploring a zone.)

So in an environment like that, I really hope that such a thing is never, ever, ever possible in-game and is something people do waaaaay far out of game on their own accord. Blizzard really scared a lot of people with their initial implementation of RealID and still kinda do despite all the privacy settings, and I would cancel my WoW account the day Blizzard ever considers putting in some kind of interface for geographical guild finding no matter how opt-out it is. I want to choose which basis I use to find friends in this game and I never want Blizzard to help me with that. I especially never _ever_ want some dumbass 15 year old punk that hits on me to find out I live in Los Angeles, let alone what my real name is.

(And really, I'm sick of the people that think that WoW can't be real life. I have come across some of my best friends online, and WoW is no different from IRC or AIM or email or any means of online communications. It is as real life as it gets without being face-to-face with someone. Some people just don't learn to manage their in-game time very well and that is the fodder for all those horror stories, not the vast majority of people that do know how to stop playing a game.)

<comment><USER24> >I mostly play with two "real life" friends, and most of the groupings of people I know in my guilds are couples, friends from college/home, coworkers, and similar. It's usually not "oh we know each other after we found out in- game that we're geographically close".

Yeah, but that's partly because when you meet a random person online, odds are that they don't live near you because any two random internet denizens aren't likely to live near each other. The point of geolocation would be that you could feasibly meet if you wanted to.

I don't see what the problem would be with opt-outable geolocation. You could set your location to private, or don't enter it at all, and join a guild/clan/whatever that isn't local to a specific area.

A game or a guild that geolocated should also be harder on creeps, banning people who were creepy and not letting in 15 year olds in the first place if that's not who they wanted. It would be more like a real life social group. If you don't want to hang around with someone in real life, you don't, and if you're not in high school yourself, you probably don't socialize with 15 year old boys who aren't related to you. I understand your concerns but I think there are solutions to them, and there will always be alternatives for those who want to keep it strictly anonymous and online.

>And really, I'm sick of the people that think that WoW can't be real life. I have come across some of my best friends online, and WoW is no different from IRC or AIM or email or any means of online communications. It is as real life as it gets without being face-to-face with someone.

But there are still some things you're missing without face to face. And having a social life centered around electronic communication with people you don't know in real life is almost as stigmatized as WoW addiction anyway.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The problem for me with games like WoW, EQ and so on is that they aren't based enough on skills so to compensate you need to spend a lot of time in the game.

To contrast. In a game like Quake you are only as good as your Rail-gun aim it's pure skills. Or StarCraft for that matter again skills based.

The advantages from these kind of games in combatting addiction is that they are hard to become good at. you can't just get powerleveled up the latter.

The skills stays with you, the same is not true in WoW.

Having seen a couple of friends dropping out of university for a year because of games like EverQuest and WoW my advice is:

Don't play games where it's the avatar that gains power. Only play games that makes you a better player.

<comment><USER26> I think you're mainly viewing WoW from the PvE (player-vs-environment) perspective. In PvP (player-vs-player), there is a system much like the one present in Starcraft II (except that there are no leagues, only ratings).

 _In a game like Quake you are only as good as your Rail-gun aim it's pure skills._

If you spend years playing Quake/Starcraft, you will be good at it.

 _The advantages from these kind of games in combatting addiction is that they are hard to become good at_

I don't see how that combats addiction. I played competitive Counter-Strike Source for some time, and the main thing that kept me going was just that feeling of competition, and wanting to become better.

WoW's addiction factor is different. It's more like "if I don't do X on day Y, I get behind other people" where in games like Quake/Starcraft, that just doesn't exist.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> I know a guy who's really, really into football. Watches hours of games every other night or so, has a "fantasy" team that he's constantly fretting over and checking online stats for, etc.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that distinguishes this obsession from a WoW habit is that more people like to watch football, so it's accepted.

People who get seriously addicted to WoW are usually either looking for any escape from reality, or they have the type of personality which tends to get addicted to _something_ , whether it's online games, math puzzles, tracking railroad schedules, or whatever. There's no question that these people might act in unhealthy ways, but WoW is the symptom of their problems, not the cause.

(disclosure: I used to play WoW regularly)

<comment><USER28> >People who get seriously addicted to WoW are usually either looking for any escape from reality, or they have the type of personality which tends to get addicted to something, whether it's online games, math puzzles, tracking railroad schedules, or whatever. There's no question that these people might act in unhealthy ways, but WoW is the symptom of their problems, not the cause.

Do you agree that more people get addicted to playing WoW than tracking railroad schedules? If so, what are some of your hypotheses for what is causing this discrepancy?

:-P

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> How do you avoid this trap? How do you prevent [subject] from hooking you into a shadow of what you really want? The answer is simple: don't [do it] blindly. Consider what it is you get out of [subject] . Nearly everything the [subject] provides can be found better and more real elsewhere.

Fattening foods? Alcohol abuse? Sex Addiction? oh, WoW.

This is written with the assumption that the reader cannot think for themselves and is quite insulting to anyone that reads past half of these subjective assertions.

"at the same time there was something disquieting about the fact that all these people were still around"

Sorry your friends didn't die, change all of their habits entirely, or live up to your random expectations of what constitutes too much and too little involvement in a computer game.

Seriously though, its been out how many years, and using plenty of comics and quotations to express this point, its taken you 18 months to regurgitate this same tired public service announcement? This is just trolling literate people that have thought about playing games in the last decade!

</comment><comment><USER30> Meh, quit gaming a while back but recently want to try it out again but more just to cool off as a "hobby."

I used to think games were evil and against productivity but no longer. I work a lot. I just want to chill out and relax some times and blow shit up. Maybe do a raid or two, so what?

It's no different then spending 3 hours watching a TV show on Netflix or something similar.

It just depends on how you want to spend your time. If it makes you happy, sure.

I think you need a real job before you can consider gaming a hobby though. Otherwise it can lead to a "full time life gig."

Girlfriend will also help make sure you're not wasting your time.

I'm lucky if I can squeeze out 8 hours a week on games. If that. There's weekends though that I have the whole day to myself and I prefer to play a game for a few hours than go to a club and get drunk.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Related is Paul Graham's essay on the acceleration of addictiveness: <http://www.paulgraham.com/addiction.html>

(And to add a shameless plug, my own article on akrasia: <http://messymatters.com/akrasia> )

</comment><comment><USER31> I just wanted to add my 2 cents relating to gaming addiction. I've never played WoW so I can't comment on that. But I was kicked out of college indirectly due to my addiction to Counter Strike.

I dunno if the same is true for WoW but one of the reasons I believe Counter Strike is so addictive is the time you have to wait after you get killed, before the next round starts.

I believe this is due to the fact that variable reinforcement schedules are more resistant to extinction:

"Skinner also looked at variable schedules. Variable ratio means you change the "x" each time -- first it takes 3 presses to get a goodie, then 10, then 1, then 7 and so on. Variable interval means you keep changing the time period -- first 20 seconds, then 5, then 35, then 10 and so on.

In both cases, it keeps the rats on their rat toes. With the variable interval schedule, they no longer "pace" themselves, because they can no longer establish a "rhythm" between behavior and reward. Most importantly, these schedules are very resistant to extinction. It makes sense, if you think about it. If you haven't gotten a reinforcer for a while, well, it could just be that you are at a particularly "bad" ratio or interval! Just one more bar press, maybe this'll be the one!"

Counter Strike is a variable interval schedule. Once you die you have to wait an unknown amount of time before you can play again. This makes counter strike playing behavior more resistant to extinction and I believe one of the big reasons why people get so addicted to it. If you respawned the second you died in Counter Strike (as you do in deathmatch) I'm fairly positive there would be a much fewer number of people addicted to the game. I believe this is quite a big factor in addiction. I haven't heard of anyone addicted to any FPS deathmatch multiplayer game. I'm sure there are some, but much less so than games like counter strike where you have to wait.

</comment><comment><USER32> >Although WoW is a much better game than Farmville, with a substantially different business model, their tactics are fundamentally the same: use your social obligations to keep you clicking. Exploit your friendships, sense of reciprocity, and the joy of being part of a group with shared goals. Turn it all from something commendable to something frivolous that serves mainly to increase the game developer's profits.

This put into words something I've been thinking about for a while, but struggled to articulate. There's something wrong when we start doing this to friendships.

</comment><comment><USER33> Fantasic write up. I don't know if anyone has seen "Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief" (pretty good - I enjoyed it), but there is a part where the heroes enter a casino. Everything you could wish for was there and so nobody left. And it was a trap -- it's sole reason was to entrap people so they never did anything with their lives. Your description made me think of WoW in that way. I'm sure WoW's intentions aren't evil (they just want your money!) but the outcome is the same.

</comment><comment><USER34> Short version:

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Long version:

Compared to other kinds of entertainment (books, TV, sports, friends) -- World of Warcraft makes you think about it even when you don't play it. The longer you play the game, the more addicted you are, the more you think about all the things you're gonna do. That's how the game's designed.

You think about the game when you're not playing it. It's hard to really focus on something else if you're thinking about the game.

Does that sound familiar to you? If you're a hacker, if you are excited about computers, then it must. It's same with hacking and programming. It's the same principle. For example I tried a little Node.js magic the other night and the first thing I did in the morning was getting live comments to work. Then I found out there could be another cool feature, and so on. Excitement. That's what drives hackers. Call it addiction, whatever. Unlike, WoW, you're doing work, you're making money.

So please, don't be ever excited about WoW. You don't wanna waste your precious excitement thanks to which you make wonders with programming on WoW.

You can do both, but you can't be addicted to both. Which one will you choose?

</comment><comment><USER35> Exactly why I don't play these, also why I don't try crack or heroin.

<comment><USER36> I haven't tried crack or heroin either but I wonder if they're more addictive than alcohol or tobacco or anything else that gives instant gratification. I tend to lean toward the addictive personality viewpoint. For instance I know people who can open a bar of chocolate and eat just a square or two. If I open a bar it's all gone

<comment><USER37> Yes, but do you know people who can smoke crack a few times, and then forget it? Or take heroin a few times?

Yes, some personalities are more prone to addiction than others. But it's also true that some substances that give instant gratification are more addictive than others.

<comment><USER24> Yes, there are people who can smoke crack or take heroin a few times and forget it. Or play WoW for that matter. It depends on your personality.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I'll add my perspective to this as someone who was addicted to a similar game.

I started playing Everquest (EQ) soon after launch in 1999 and leveled pretty quickly hitting the max level cap at the time (50) not long before the first expansion came out. At the time played wi an American guild (I'm Australian) and the time difference stopped me doing things with them most of them time since I had a 9-5 job. My server split and I went with them. The new server was fairly desolate and I ended up getting booted from lack of participation. That, combined with how my class had been screwed by the expansion, caused me to quit.

But I ended up selling my stuff on eBay for ~$3500 so it wasn't all bad. But the story doesn't end there.

Atually anoeth factor was that I was moving to the UK for work. That first year the was one of the most productive of my life. I had no Internet access at home (2001), no TV and a fairly active social life. Due to living in a cheap area of London, renting a flat and subletting the rooms and the low rate of effective taxation of contractors I SAVED in excess of $100,000 that year.

After some drama with flatmates (subletting was financially beneficial but a hassle) I moved closer to work. Suddenlyinsread of an our commute each way I had a 5 minute walk. I got cable Internet and bought a PC and a TV.

I started playing EQ again. New server, new class, starting from scratch. I leveled quickly and went through a series of guilds. Raiding can be a huge timesink. This period was the most fun I had in an MMORPG ever.

Later that year I got laid off as in the aftermath of the telco bubble bursting the previous year (it was 2002 by now).

I'd always wanted to learn a foreign language soi moved to Germany and enrolled in intensive learning classes.

But I still kept up with EQ. I transferred servers to a high end guild. The guild was American so I ended up sleeping from 7pm to 1am, playing EQ from 1am to 8am, going to classes til 1pm and then playing til 6pm. I never really adjusted to sleeping at these times.

But I did go to classes. After they ended I stayed and was playing up to 16 hours a day. In the end I got kicked from the guild for doing something I shouldn't have, which was probably the best thing that could've happened.

Still I view that time now as a wasted opportunity. I did learn the language but not as well as I could have and I certainly take full advantage socially or even to see and do things there.

But not before I'd gone back to my old company (they were hiring again) and my weird schedule had brought me into conflict with a toxic project manager, ending that job only a month after it had started.

2002-03 was a pretty terrible time in the UK contractor market (39% unemployment amongst those who hadn't left the industry). It took months to find a new job. I'd also lost that "social" outlet of EQ so was pretty cut off. It was actually a fairly dark period for me.

I have played MMOGs since then but never to the same intensity and, frankly, I think the magic was gone. I'd seen it all before. Even now I think all these games are fairly formulaic with the same basic mechanics and psychological devices (compulsion loops, etc).

What I learnt about myself is that I'm fairly singleminded. This can be used advantageously as I'll dwel on a problem at work until I solve it. But if I have an unresolved issue personally it can, in a way, consume me--or at least consume my attention.

I do think I'd be better off without a TV or even without a home Internet connection. But I guess balance is my personal cross to bear.

Are these games dangerous? Possibly but I tend to thinkpretty much everything is dangerous to some people. Alcohol. Gambling. Trading. Even working out. It ultimately comes down to personal responsibility.

EDIT: One last thing I'll add: one problem with this kind of game is the longevity (timesink) nature. You see a similar (but much less severe) problem with tabletop RPGs. Because you invest so much time it increases your threshold for putting up with crap, basically.

In RPGs it might be a 7 hour session where nothing happens. In MMOGs it's spending 1-2 hours LFG (looking for group), a week figuring out a raid encounter, spending an our doing a CR (corpse recovery) and so on.

These days my leisure gaming activities are dominated by tabletop board gaming of the Euro variety (Agricola, Age of Steam, Reef Encounter, Le Havre, Dominion and so on). These tend to last 2-3 hours tops and, as such, have very little "downtime". I find it a much more rewarding experience than huge timesink games of any variety. Plus it's actually social.

On a side note, if there is anyone in NYC with interest I playing such games, contact me via my info. :)

EDIT2: fixed some typos (typing on an iPad is error-prone), :)

<comment><USER39> _Even now I think all these games are fairly formulaic with the same basic mechanics and psychological devices (compulsion loops, etc)._

Basically, MMOGs are all like resort casinos. There's some spectacle and entertainment. The driving mechanic is the addictive variable schedule of reward.

I'd like to make a game where true exploration is the base mechanic. There would be no storyline, just exploration. All content would be either procedurally generated, created by the users, or evolved through genetic algorithms.

<comment><USER33> You're describing Minecraft (single player), though the exploration is landscape only -- not much else to find.

<comment><USER39> One could use a procedurally-generated landscape as a substrate for lots of user-generated and genetic algorithm-produced content.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> patio11, we need you here. Where are you?

From what I know, Patrick used to spend a lot of time playing WoW. It will be interesting to know what he actually got out of the game and what made him stop playing the game (assuming he has indeed stopped playing the game)

<comment><USER41> I used to play WoW about twenty hours per week at the cushy exexjob (35 hours of little work per week). It was fun, it gave me an English speaking social outlet when I had none, and the experience of managing a sixty+ member guild was great preparation for later (deadlines, communication, resolving conflicts, etc).

There was an event in my family: the details are private, but it caused me to reassess What I Wanted From Life. Better purple pixels figured rather low on the totem pole. I quit. A few days later I picked up a new hobby: see, there was this teacher who wanted to play bingo...

</comment></comment><comment> ryan-allen How interesting.

I had been playing like mad since the new expansion came out. The other night in a dispassionate drunken decision I cancelled my subscription AND permanently deleted my characters. I wasn't a hardcore player but over about 14 months I had 1500 odd hours racked up across maybe 10 characters. Around 65 days play time.

I woke up the next day with a pretty bad hangover, but suddenly had a lot of spare time that I usually didn't feel that I had.

I went for a bike ride, caught up with friends, read bits and pieces of some books, played piano and hung out with my dog. Instead of a 16 hour stint trying to 'gear up for the new cata raids'.

Last night I had dreams that I was playing though... But I can't go back, everything is gone! To go back would mean starting again and I don't feel like sinking two months of my spare time into 'levelling up' again.

<comment><USER42> Another life saved by alcohol.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> My own experience: [http://inter-sections.net/2009/02/21/destroying-the-world- of...](http://inter-sections.net/2009/02/21/destroying-the-world-of-warcraft)

Yes, if you have the right kind of mind, WoW is a soul-sucking, life- destroying monster. Don't let it into your life.

<comment><USER44> From your article:

"So, when World of Warcraft came out, I knew that it was very important that I avoid playing it, because it clearly was a game that I would get instantly addicted to."

I was also into MUDs big time while I was in school. That addiction was not all bad since I eventually got into the hacking-the-codebase side of it, which was in line with what I was studying. But as soon as I heard of it, I knew that WoW was bad news for me. It would become my MUD addiction on steroids.

Thankfully I've managed to stay away from it so far. But I'm not really that strong. Most of the credit goes to my aversion to having to pay a subscription fee to play it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> 5 Creepy Ways Video Games Are Trying to Get You Addicted

[http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video- gam...](http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are- trying-to-get-you-addicted.html)

</comment><comment><USER46> I haven't ever played WoW - and I doubt I ever will, but I would have imagined that the skills gained as a 'guild leader' would be commutable to a lot of management level jobs?

Is this a fair assumption?

</comment><comment><USER45> It seems like the problem is the addiction. The author seems to acknowledge this is the title, but goes on to mostly treat WOW or gaming addiction like it is semi-unique. Granted, blizzard intentionally includes many elements that are more or less designed for addiction (quite common in the industry/genre) and that intention is troubling.

But otherwise it does seem like it shares a lot of traits with other addictions. You can waste your life away watching TV, playing games, shooting heroin, blogging, gambling, refreshing facebook, whatever. To be sure certain of those tasks seem much more likely to lead to addiction (warcraft/heroin) but it's clearly not the only factor.

There is also the question of whether addiction can be a pre-existing condition more or less waiting to go off. I am far from a psychologist, but I know that drug addicts often suffer from depression or other mental problems and it seems likely that instead of the drugs causing them, at least some times it was the condition that lead to the drugs (though I'm sure they become heavily intertwined). Are WOW addicts more likely to be depressed or agoraphobic? It seems quite possible. Would they have all developed this because of the game? I don't know.

I would like to see the industry self police itself a little better. Online games may always be addictive, but are lots of "brain hacks" intentionally being used by the genre to extend lifetime engagement. They're easiest to see in the more transparent copies - Zynga, foursquare, xbox live achievements. Maybe they should need to cut the most manipulative of these out or suffer chinese style regulation. We do, after all, try to shield kids from alcohol and tobacco.

<comment><USER45> There are clear abuses going on in the game industry. Check out this link where a game designer from Microsoft talks about "behavioral game design" - <USER2> illustrates his paper by comparing gamers to a rat inside a skinner box.

[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/behavioral_game_d...](http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/behavioral_game_design.php?page=1)

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> The author touches on something that is very important: if you're playing WoW _as a substitute_ for accomplishing things/meeting people/etc, therein lies the problem. At the end of the day, WoW is cheap entertainment, and needs to have priority as such.

I've met friends through WoW, but that hasn't supplanted my need to have real friends. I've accomplished things in WoW, but that hasn't been a substitute for accomplishments in my actual, real life. Heck, to extend the metaphor, I've even made good money with WoW, but it's not a replacement for my normal income.

When you let the the serotonin rush from a raiding achievement _replace_ your desire to accomplish tangible things, then you're in trouble. If you use it as entertainment, an augment to an existing healthy life, it's an entirely different story.

At the end of the day, your gear and achievements and whatnot don't mean anything; they are just trophies of time committed. That's fine, as long as that's all they are; when they become a substitute for real success or social involvement, you've crossed over from entertainment to dependence, and it's a long, dark road from there.

</comment><comment><USER48> An article about the psychology of gaming which I found quite interesting:

[http://ifat-glassman.blogspot.com/2009/11/work-games-and-sel...](http://ifat- glassman.blogspot.com/2009/11/work-games-and-self-esteem.html)

Personally I'm finding my interest in games is waining. A whole bunch of very impressive AAA games came out this year - in the past I would have played all of them, this year I only played Bad Company 2 and Halo Reach. I think I no longer have the time/energy to make that initial investment in a game, where you jump through a bunch of frustrating hoops until the fun starts and/or you feel immersed in the game world. However, I still enjoy the competition online - outsmarting other humans in a game of skill and strategy. So I play Bad Company 2 on Live frequently, but I don't pursue the social component of it (friendlists, clans etc). I'm not sure if I'll ever get bored of that.

And for that reason I avoid WoW like the plague: endless human competition, massive social aspect. Bound to be addictive (mind you, i'm not sure what you actually _do_ in WoW gameplay. the adverts are all cutscenes)

</comment><comment><USER49> I have been playing WoW for 4 years, now off and on. My co-workers at the time, some of whom are still my co-workers at a different job, got me into it.

I have found that a good way to moderate my play is to refuse to make appointments to play with others at a specific time. This effectively keeps you from hardcore raiding, and minimizes real-world conflicts around the game (affectionately referred to as "wife-aggro"). Eventually, I get pretty much capped on gear and stats, get bored, and set the game aside until there is new content. (Yes, I am playing Cataclysm after a hiatus in the Fall).

I am 44, and pretty much in the best shape of my life, because my attitude is that I'd MUCH rather have skis, snowshoes, hiking boots, or Five Fingers attached to my feet, than a game keyboard under my fingertips. I have never been to a gym.

I don't have as many side projects as before WoW, but I try to make sure I'm getting that out of my system at work now: making interesting things out of interesting technologies.

</comment><comment><USER50> Drugs: My anti-World of Warcraft.

</comment><comment><USER51> Good read. I'd like to add that a lot of the good parts of WoW, (PvP, Social Interaction, Character Customization) have equal or better equivalents in other games that take up far less time. League of Legends, Call of Duty, Counterstrike, Warcraft/Starcraft can all easily be played with friends and in moderation.

Devils Advocate:

Who are we to say what a "real" accomplishment is. Maybe spending 6-8 hrs in a virtual world every day makes that world real to someone. If that world becomes reality then goals met in the virtual world are real accomplishments to them. In the grand scheme of things isn't life just trying to be happy killing time until we die. If I go to the gym every day but spend most of my life miserable is my life any more fulfilling than someone who spends 8hrs a day playing WoW and loving it?

<comment><USER47> It's quite easy to say what a real accomplishment is in this case; a WoW achievement or piece of gear is a flag or row in a database. The actual value of the accomplishment is near nil; "real" accomplishments are some improvement to some part of your life as a function of work.

WoW accomplishments only feel like accomplishments because there is an artificial barrier in place to reach them. At the end of the day, the net result is "I added a database row". Compare to something like getting in shape, at which point the net result is "I've improved my health and added 15 years to my life" or to learning a skill that helps you contribute to financial success or the creation of something that increases the beauty in others' lives.

If it were actually difficult or noteworthy to achieve things in WoW, then yes, they would be "real" accomplishments. However, a DBA could run a query and give you 6 years worth of "accomplishments" on a whim (at no cost to anyone else!). How can they be called real accomplishments when, after the varnish has been stripped away, they can be granted with six seconds of work?

There are some real accomplishments to be had - you might learn how to manage people, or the basics of supply and demand and arbitrage and resource speculation, or time management, or hone better reflexes and spatial awareness, etc, but none of those are "WoW accomplishments". What I mean to say is that WoW is not fully valueless, but that the things it presents as "accomplishment" are empty and meaningless at the end of the day.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> No game in my life was nearly as addictive as reading HN (or digg before that, or watching news on tv before that).

Games in my life reach at most level of wikipedia reading. 12 hours grind once in two months and casual use now and then.

WoW ? if I wanted to do chores all day, I'd get a job.

</comment><comment><USER52> It's all part of the culture of entertainment we've developed, that is surely partly to blame for the economic situation that western societies are finding themselves in. These anecdotes about individuals extrapolate easily to millions of people who are fixated on various ways to waste time.

I played WoW for about six months when it first came out, and since stopping playing it (and most video games in general) I've often wondered what our society could achieve if the immense creative and mental exertion spent on games was spent on tackling real problems instead.

Certainly some people are working hard at meaningful things and using games as downtime, but I suspect they're a minority.

</comment><comment><USER53> I dislike this type of article, because it seems predicated on the notion that everyone experiences these games in the same way. I've had no trouble keeping my gameplay moderate; it's not that difficult.

The problem is not the game, it's that people don't _know how_ to directly improve their real life. The steps aren't obvious, and you don't get to start with the knowledge that simple persistence will win nearly any task you can set yourself.

The game is a symptom, not a disease.

</comment><comment><USER54> Haven't had a chance to read the article yet - but I already see where this is going. I essentially lost a chunk of my life from 21 to 23yo playing EverQuest with a guild that was rated one of the best to ever play the game. With that came the caveat of constantly being the first at conquering new expansions, leveling as fast as possible so you CAN conquer the new expansions, and end less other power play moves (questing for keys, blah blah).

Long story short - my life was rather pathetic during these times. I found myself so immersed in the MMORPG world that I'd pick raids and my friends in the game over family/friends for any circumstances. Birthday parties, engagement parties, night out with friends at the bars, hacking all night on something that can potentially change the lives of people one day -- all gone. Zero motivation, zero care in the world except to get that new robe for my necromancer.

I remember my friends would drive by the window and start screaming for me to come out with them for once. I would literally turn off the lights in my room so they couldn't tell if I was home or not. Sad.

We had raids that lasted from 6pm on a Friday night and wouldn't end until 12am on Saturday. Anyone remember Veeshan's Peak in Kunark for EQ? Not only was my social life directly impacted by way of never having a significant other, I wasn't picking up any new programming skills, my family was constantly on my case, and my close friends eventually just stopped calling, they gave up. What was more embarrassing is the once in a blue moon when I would show up some where, the comments were unbearable. "Oh look, Steve decided to join us instead of his MMORPG friends for a change."

I am not exactly sure where I am going with this - but one day when I woke up and saw five empty 2 liter bottles of coke with ten boxes of pizza collecting, lying next to my desk, I was disgusted with myself and my lifestyle. I was over weight. I probably didn't shower as much as I should have. I was disgusted with myself and my lifestyle. I was burning the most crucial years of my life away on something meaningless. These are the times to be learning and exercising your brain beyond its capabilities as learning only gets more difficult through out the ages. I bet most of you were writing bad ass code when you were 21,22,23 and learned a lot faster then than you do now if you're part of the older HN crew.

Given my competitive nature, I was never able to play an MMORPG casually. I had to be #1. Being #1 requires a lot of dedication (ie, time invested), and if you are not willing to put in the time, don't bother, you'll never be as good as the other guy or have the same inventory or capabilities as them. You'll be average at best. I have the sense that a large population of HN does not settle for average given the intelligence of the community.

Long story short, the only escape I had was to go cold turkey. Going cold turkey doesn't mean saying "Ok, I'm not going to login ever again" - <USER3> never works out. You always get sucked back in at some point. I had to go the drastic route. I had to sell all of my assets, which sold for $5,000 USD at the time. There was times when I was going through withdrawals and wanted to purchase my account back, but the original buyer refused. Thank god he did.

Saying that this was one of the smartest things I've ever done would be a huge understatement. I've achieved things I'm personally proud of since quitting playing any MMORPG including the following:

\- I have a healthy balance of a social life and work life.

\- I am respected among my peers for building new technologies/infrastructure out.

      - I got married to the love of my life and had a baby girl with her, which is now the most important person in my life.

      - I have worked at startups where I've learned priceless lessons.

      - I bought a house that I would never be able to afford if I stuck to MMORPGs as my skills were no where near as blossomed as they are now - I'm assuming I'd be working an entry level job somewhere filling in Excel spreadsheets if I kept it up. Even then, I'd be lucky.

Good riddance. Do I still think about the days I played and get a small itch? Sure. I even keep in touch via Facebook with a lot of the people who suffered a similar addiction to me. Will I _ever_ touch another MMORPG? I can guarantee you on my daughter's name that I will never get involved in one again. Fortunately my addiction now includes a healthy balance of time with my family, building awesome technologies, eating right and working out.

<comment><USER9> Fires of Heaven?

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> I quit Reddit cold turkey by deleting my account. I have only occasionally looked at the front page since then, but it hasn't re-hooked me; getting rid of the orange-red compulsion and the karma score was really effective at breaking the addiction.

Now if only account deletion was enabled on HN...

</comment><comment><USER56> I think people are primarily motivated by social status (after basic needs are taken care of). The deal with WoW is that it becomes your social status to the people you spend most of your time with, the other people in WoW.

</comment><comment><USER57> If I could only do this with reddit and hn, but work instead of working out!

</comment><comment><USER58> Gaming like cigarette, do it once and you are smoker forever.

</comment><comment><USER59> Actually it all comes down to a simple choice - Do you want to take the red pill, or the blue pill....

</comment><comment><USER60> Here's my perspective --

I've played WoW pretty hardcore for a little bit less than two years before I quit. For me, I can actually say that the experience was beneficial to some extent. This was around 4,5 years ago, before I even knew HN existed.

Before I started playing the game, I heard some of my friends talk about raiding. For people that are not familiar with the concept, once you reach the maximum level in the game you join a guild. Once you're in that guild, you can go into dungeons with people from your guild and slay bosses. These bosses drop items that in turn allow you to upgrade the gear of your character. The cool thing about these bosses is that some of them actually quite challenging to beat. Once every couple of months, the developers of the game add a new dungeon that you can clear with your guild. They were also talking about these high end guilds that apparently consisted of insanely good players that would clear these dungeons before the masses did.

To give myself a challenge I decided to play the game but with a goal in mind, join one of these guild. Once I managed this I would quit. I began as a noob. I levelled up a character and joined a guild. Once I outgrew this guild I joined a better one.

I played for around a year in this specific guild. While playing here I actually met two people that I would call friends. Their background is so different from mine that the chance is so slim that I could have met them in real life. We've met up several times (in real life) and if I needed their help they'd be there for me. In this guild I was also in charge of leading the group of players through the dungeons. You're in charge of communicating how to do certain things and during the fights you give guidelines if something goes wrong. I raided 4-5 days per week from 19:00 - 23:00ish in this guild.

I then managed to join the guild that was N°1 at that time, together with one of my friends from my previous guild. In this guild, it was all about achieving the world first kill of a boss. It's great when you arrive at a boss and you have no idea as what to expect and how to kill it. It can be a pretty hard puzzle sometimes. If you're not there as one of the first you can read up on proven ways to handle the fight, which is less challenging. Also, contrary to popular belief, these guild usually play less then the other guilds. They go all out when a new dungeon is released (1-2 weeks) and then they play one 5 hour day a week for 4-5 hours a day and they wait for the next one. The funny thing is, the majority of the people that were playing here were also working as lawyers, programmers or were entrepreneurs. I spent a couple of months with the guild and once we cleared the last dungeon and had to wait for the next one, I quit. After that, I also quit the game.

Many people told me I was addicted to it, but considering it was rather easy for me to quit I'd say I wasn't. I was working towards a goal.

So what have I learned? I personally see life as a game. You win some, you lose some. Regardless of what you want to learn or achieve, you can. Also, communication is important in whatever you do, especially when you're in a leadership position. Oh, and I had a great time playing it. :)

<comment><USER61> I also joined a world top guild (bouncing around #2 in Europe around the time I played). It's a totally different experience from even that described in the OP, and other people's experiences getting sucked into life at the mid- level-40s. I have to say to those who found levelling addictive, hardcore raiding is going to be ten times worse.

I'd agree _in general_ that those who really focus to zerg a new boss as fast as possible end up playing less over time, but I also found many many people of my old guild who played almost constantly once content was cleared. Several would strive to have multiple highly geared alts, clearing the same content multiple times a week on alts as well as mains in case the next encounter needed a different class composition. Few of the people I raided with had jobs or openly talked about them. People who turned up once a week for the farm raid were mocked as being casual.

It's addictive in the way a job is addictive. Once your mind accepts there is some reason for you to be in this raiding cycle, and especially if you play an integral role (I was a main tank and tank officer), you feel you have to be there every night - and it just becomes the centre of your world, despite not receiving any real world compensation. The acclaim, worldwide achievement and knowledge of being part of something that is undeniably awesome all tie into it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> See this video? "Rogue Complex" funny shit. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBqjDYJ6dCY>

</comment><comment><USER63> Haha, this shows how much of a jock nerd I am. I thought WoW meant Work Out World, haha.</comment>


I've started wiretapping my kid because he hates photos (2017) - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/3/14800098/recording-child-audio-phone-photos-parenting <comment><USER2> To the author of this piece, let me be the first to say "FUCK YOU." No, seriously... if your kid doesn't want to be recorded / photographed, there is one thing to do: DON'T FUCKING PHOTOGRAPH / RECORD HIM. End of story. If you don't have any more respect for your kid than to take "creepshots" of him, maybe you shouldn't be a parent.

Not wanted to be captured on film isn't "cute" or "adorable" or whatever crap you seem to think. It's an entirely reasonable position to _NOT_ want somebody capturing your "adorable mispronunciations" (read: fuckups) so they can giggle over them for the rest of your life. Fuck you. Do you want somebody following you around, taking a picture / video every time _you_ fuck something up? If not,then why would you think your kid would want that?

<comment><USER3> This comment breaks the HN guidelines. Please don't do that, regardless of how annoyed you are.

If you'd (re-)read [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), we'd appreciate it. Don't miss the bit about uppercase.</comment></comment>


Erlang the movie II: The Sequel - <AUTHOR> http://www.gar1t.com/blog/erlang-the-movie-ii-the-sequel.html

<comment> vezzy-fnord Made by the same person who brought to you such classics as "MongoDB is Web Scale" and "Node.js Is Bad Ass Rockstar Tech".

Also significant enough to be mentioned by Joe Armstrong himself: [https://joearms.github.io/](https://joearms.github.io/)

<comment><USER2> There are a lot of really good ones in that same style, but I agree that Gar1t has to be some of the best.

I'm particularly fond of this one: "I would like a job as a software develeloper" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VJ8aaCgYN0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VJ8aaCgYN0)

and "C++ Programmer" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1TsOHyJPpw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1TsOHyJPpw)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> The original "Erlang: The Movie" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE) (with a good demonstration of what a reliability means)

</comment><comment><USER4> I work with Joe, he's a one of a kind. Great guy to have lunch with - he still solves problems daily, and often it's on completely random stuff.

</comment><comment><USER5> If anyone hasn't seen the original, it's worth a watch.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrIjfIjssLE)

<comment><USER6> Dang, they just casually leave a phone call going (through their demo telephony system), then do some apparently unrelated demo where they fix a bug that is causing another part of the system to crash, and then as a big reveal, the phone call they left up is still going untouched.

<comment><USER7> The best thing that we weren't faking this. We did actually run though the whole sequence as was shown in the movie with having a call going while another part of the crashed and was fixed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "Making of" -> [http://www.gar1t.com/blog/otp.html](http://www.gar1t.com/blog/otp.html)</comment>


Intel's next-generation 7nm chips delayed until 2022 - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53525710 <comment><USER2> Also on Anandtech: [https://www.anandtech.com/show/15926/intel-7nm-delayed- by-6-...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/15926/intel-7nm-delayed-by-6-months- company-to-take-pragmatic-approach-in-using-3rd-party-fabs)

</comment><comment><USER2> > Intel said it had identified a "defect" in its manufacturing process that > led to the new delay.

An excuse or a genuine mistake?</comment>


'People You May Know' helped Facebook grow exponentially - one-possibility https://marker.medium.com/the-untold-history-of-facebooks-most-controversial-growth-tool-2ea3bfeaaa66 <comment><AUTHOR> In the early days, Facebook logged into user's email accounts and stole contact information without users' knowledge or authorization. This was possible because people used the same password for their email and Facebook, a practice common especially back in those days. This is one of their sources for PYMK.

In fact Facebook has used this technique very recently too:

A security researcher noticed the tech giant was prompting some users to type in their email passwords when they opened an account to verify their identity. And after they were caught... Social networking giant Facebook said on Wednesday evening it may have "unintentionally uploaded" the email contacts of up to 1.5 million users on its site, without their permission or knowledge, when they signed up for new accounts since May 2016.

Read more about this: [https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-says- it-unin...](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-says-it- unintentionally-uploaded-1-5-million-users-email-n995741)

<comment><USER2> "Unintentionally uploaded"

Because you just happened to accidentally interact with the API in just the right way and downloaded the information to just the right database and deployed a service to production which just happens to access that data...

I don't understand how that statement right there isn't literally incriminating evidence. They admitted to uploading the data explicitly, and "unintentional" is a straight up lie based on how software works.

<comment><USER3> > "unintentional" is a straight up lie based on how software works

This is a very dangerous statement to make.

Large systems are not like hackathon projects where you might understand and hold the entire scope and flow in your mind.

Software absolutely can and does lead to unintended outcomes, else there would be no bugs.

<comment><USER4> You're saying an entire system was added to integrate with user email accounts, download all their contacts, and upload them to a database at Facebook, accidentally?

<comment><USER3> Please respond to the actual contents of my post, and not a strawman version of it.

I'm saying what I said, nothing more.

> Software absolutely can and does lead to unintended outcomes, else there > would be no bugs.

Edit: also see this: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22429620](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22429620)

TFA explains how the system was added, it's absurd and intellectually dishonest to interpret my post as saying what you wrote.

<comment><USER5> Have you noticed how no feature that brings monetary value to the users is ever accidentally added? I never accidentally received money from these companies, extra storage quota, personalized email address, premium account, etc. And certainly never something that you get to keep once they realize the mistake. The fact that they have such weak controls when it comes to protecting you but such strong controls when it comes to protecting themselves can only be a calculated decision. And the number of precedents of such "mistakes" that are _always_ to their advantage is the proof.

It's a mistake only the first time. Knowing they get away with it every time and reap the reward is just an incentive to do it again and again. And people finding excuses and justifying this as being acceptable is one reason they get away with it. They rely on advocates for ignorance and defeatism to make such incidents feel like a banality, "oh well, what can you do", "it could happen to anyone", etc.

How many situations would you consider excusable where bad things happen to you because someone "accidentally" removed the step where you were informed what's happening and could say no?

<comment><USER6> _> I never accidentally ... extra storage quota_

Raises hand as an example of someone who essentially got a free server upgrade from 500G to 2T storage recently, due to people following a fixed procedure in a slightly unusual circumstance without thinking.

"Positive" accidents do happen. People just don't tend to shout about them publicly as much as they do about those with negative consequences or that affect many at the same time.

 _> someone "accidentally" removed the step where you were informed what's happening and could say no_

In this case I can easily see this accident happen. A junior was told to remove those parts of the UI. That person has little of no knowledge of the back-end and does not have time to dig or think further because they have other work tickets assigned to them to get on with, just did the job and moved on.

Facebook may be deliberately shitty a lot of the time, that doesn't mean they aren't sometimes accidentally stupidly shitty too.

 _> would you consider excusable where bad things happen to you because someone "accidentally"_

Of course this doesn't _excuse_ it, just explains it. There was a fault in the management and/or work review processes. _Someone_ should have had the opportunity to put two and two together and failed to do so. And there should be some fallout. To use a rather extreme analogy: accidentally killing someone through gross ineptitude is still a punishable crime (manslaughter), I would agree that accidentally breaching data collection rules through gross ineptitude should be too (though I doubt the coders/testers dealing with the "UI cleanup" ticket could be said to be responsible).

<comment><USER5> We're talking about different things. You're considering just the coding accident of an employee removing this and forgetting that. I'm talking about the intentional decision of not validating this in a better, more robust fashion, at least when it comes to issues that have a huge impact on security or privacy. This was a calculated decision. Whether it was done by not putting in place or by removing all the obstacles that could have prevented this makes no difference. After the first privacy "accident" they should have had in place all the processes required to make sure such an issue doesn't happen, then go unnoticed for so long.

If 5 years from now VW has another "rogue engineer" everybody will wonder how is it possible that it slip through the cracks again. Facebook let things like this slip through the cracks again and again.

> Of course this doesn't excuse it, just explains it.

It _excuses_ it the second it's made too look like a random accident but somehow keeps happening again and again the same way, _always_ to their advantage.

P.S. I'm sure no company accidentally gave such upgrades to 1.5 million users and let them get away with this. And they also didn't accidentally do this again and again. You highlighted perfectly the difference between an accident and an "accident".

<comment><USER7> > I'm talking about the intentional decision of not validating this in a > better, more robust fashion, ...

In my experience, deciding not to do something is unlikely to be intentional. Instead, the something that's not done simply never presented itself as an idea.

Do you have any _evidence_ that this particular lapse was premeditated, or did you come to this conclusion based solely on your prior opinion of their actions?

<comment><USER5> > In my experience, deciding not to do something is unlikely to be > intentional.

That's some weird experience. A _decision_ is by definition intentional. It's literally "a conclusion or judgment reached after consideration". The moment a person with power of decision is made aware of an issue both action and inaction become conscious, deliberate decisions.

> did you come to this conclusion based solely on your prior opinion of their > actions?

That's quite the assumption given the above and the fact that I was pretty clear that it's based on their continued stream of "mistakes" that tend to be massively in the company's favor. Almost feels like you made it in bad faith.

How many mistakes would you say it takes to make one start beefing up their internal processes so millions of people don't accidentally suffer repeatedly? How many before you start to at least consider that it can't be constantly attributed to bad luck? Would you feel different if a company kept overcharging you by mistake and never returned the money or fixed the issue? But now it's "just" and endless stream of your private data. Uncommon sense...

<comment><USER7> I was imprecise and overly snarky in my original reply, and for that I sincerely apologize. I'd still like an answer to the half of my question that you ignored, so let me try again in a more neutral tone:

In my experience, most instances of someone (or a company) not doing something are not examples of conscious, intentional decisions but rather an unconscious process of the proposed thing not coming to mind. As a concrete example, I haven't made a painting of anything since grade school. The vast majority of days, I didn't consider and discard the idea of painting; the idea simply never presented itself.

While Facebook's history must absolutely be taken into account when trying to discern their motivations, I consider it fundamentally unjust to judge any given incident solely based on behavior in other incidents— otherwise, you leave no path to redemption for the alleged transgressor.

As such, I would like to know if you have any evidence _specific to this incident_ that indicates it was intentional rather than an accident, as claimed.

<comment><USER5> > the idea simply never presented itself

But then you base your reasoning for the "unintentional mishap" on the assumption that Facebook leadership (engineering or management) simply never had the idea to do anything about these issues even after they happen repeatedly? How many times can you claim ignorance and an endless string of "we'll do better"s? [0] [1] [2] [.....]

They do it because they get away with it. They get away with it because people are encouraged to think that they're mistakes and "everyone makes mistakes". But every one of these mistakes costs you, and benefits them. There's no accountability and that's exactly what you are pushing for now.

> I consider it fundamentally unjust to judge any given incident solely based > on behavior in other incidents

Not solely, there's also the matter that they benefit from every one of them. Zuck _founded_ his business on collecting data without user approval. With your reasoning you can make the concept of precedent irrelevant. You just turn them into completely separate incidents with no prior knowledge and then use wishful thinking to assume they were all mishaps.

You can shoot someone once by mistake. But what if you do it 15 times? And even true mistakes cost. Yet these "mistakes" never cost Facebook anything. They just employ an army of posters to insist it was a mistake and downplay the whole thing.

There's no amount of wishful thinking and downplaying that can compensate for common sense and prior experience. There's no reasonable way in which, in good faith, you can assume _all_ these are mishaps. There's a long string of incidents that benefit them that serve as evidence.

P.S. You name one incident in the history of the world that you think is indefensible and I will use your reasoning to completely dismiss your accusation ;). Really, if you stand by your reasoning that shouldn't be hard.

[0] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-privacy- apologie...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-privacy-apologies- factbox/factbox-i-know-we-can-do-better-zuckerbergs-many-facebook-apologies- idUSKBN1HH0GY)

[1] [https://www.wired.com/story/why-zuckerberg-15-year- apology-t...](https://www.wired.com/story/why-zuckerberg-15-year-apology-tour- hasnt-fixed-facebook/)

[2] [https://time.com/5505441/mark-zuckerberg-mentor-facebook- dow...](https://time.com/5505441/mark-zuckerberg-mentor-facebook-downfall/)

<comment><USER7> > You name one incident in the history of the world that you think is > indefensible and I will use your reasoning to completely dismiss your > accusation

This is, in fact, why I prefer seeking more context and understanding to making accusations.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This quote from Zuckerberg is something else:

> "We don't view your experience with the product as a single-player game," he > says. Yes, in the short run, some users might benefit more than others from > PYMK friending. But, he contends, all users will benefit if everyone they > know winds up on Facebook. We should think of PYMK as kind of a "community > tax policy," he says. Or a redistribution of wealth. "If you're ramped up > and having a good life, then you're going to pay a little bit more in order > to make sure that everyone else in the community can get ramped up. I > actually think that that approach to building a community is part of why [we > have] succeeded and is modeled in a lot of aspects of our society."

This attitude of "we know what's good for you" is apparent in more and more modern tech products. I find it pretty gross, especially when applied personal data. It's also a convenient after-the-fact moral justification for decisions that improve the bottom line of the company at the expense of its users.

<comment><USER9> I know this might be off topic but a billionaire making a comparison to wealth redistribution almost reads like a parody to me.

<comment><USER10> The same billionaire who spends tens of millions of dollars bulldozing houses around his in order to increase his privacy,† then tells the commoners that wanting privacy isn't normal.††

† [https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Zuckerberg-to- raze-4-hou...](https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Zuckerberg-to- raze-4-houses-surrounding-Palo-Alto-7940437.php)

†† [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/facebooks-zuckerberg- the_n_41...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/facebooks-zuckerberg-the_n_417969)

<comment><USER11> Physical privacy vs virtual privacy are two very different things, so it's disingenuous to pretend they are exactly the same.

<comment><USER12> He tapes over his camera on his laptop because he doesn't trust it. I do too and don't think this is odd behavior. [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark- zuck...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jun/22/mark-zuckerberg- tape-webcam-microphone-facebook)

<comment><USER11> That is physical privacy.. it's so someone can't SEE YOU. Not track your online activity.

<comment><USER13> Lack of privacy in online activities can be even more damaging today.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> > A sex worker found Facebook recommending her clients, who did not know her > true identity. A sperm donor got a suggestion for the biological child he > never met. A psychiatrist learned that Facebook was recommending that some > of her patients friend each other on the service.

It is amazing how little pieces of information that are likely innocuous by themselves can be combined to develop a pretty thorough understanding of relationships.

<comment><USER15> The first and last must just be geolocation based, right? Like, these two people are in a room together every _X_ day for _Y_ hours... they probably know each other.

The sperm donor guy, though... facial recognition? No idea.

<comment><USER16> More likely adress book / phone contacts import.

<comment><USER17> The geo thing is really happening.

<comment><USER18> I also have the theory that they are using WiFi names / AP MAC addresses as well. If you happen to be connected to the same private WiFi network, you probably know each other.

<comment><USER19> Facebook has a patent for using dust and scratches on photos to track which camera they came from. But they claime(d) not to be using WiFi or Geolocation for the PYMK feature - [https://gizmodo.com/facebook-knows-how-to-track-you- using-th...](https://gizmodo.com/facebook-knows-how-to-track-you-using-the- dust-on-your-1821030620)

<comment><USER18> Based on the track record of other Facebook claims of the "we don't do X" type, this is basically proof that they do and/or did do both of these things. Maybe "accidentially" and "unintentionally" ;-)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> They kept sending me "do you know [person I probably don't know]" as notifications on my phone! This was the last straw that made me delete the app and my account entirely a few years ago.

One of the big annoyances in life is being notified or bugged about something I don't need to be notified about. This keeps getting worse with modern tech all the time which has slowly led me to stop using anything I don't have full control over.

<comment><USER21> If only that applied to everyone. Most people will get ten crappy notifications with one good one and go "Oh, well, not too bad." I think I used the 'People You May Know' feature a bit when I first joined but, as time went on, it really just became "This one guy who once worked at the same place as you and maybe knows someone you know". These algorithms are very smart and that's their problem - they overestimate the number of connections an average person makes.

<comment><USER22> A normal human can sustain relation with 40 relatives, 150 friends and 1000 acquittances. FB algos are (deliberately) tuned for twice those numbers.

<comment><USER23> I understand your point but honestly humans are varied. Some can handle more some less. People self regulate.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> > It's almost certain that Facebook watches your email and sees whom you are > contacting. Probably your calendar as well, to see whom you're meeting with.

What? This is a pretty explosive accusation with very little direct support beyond "they've done things that this is similar to". How would they be able to do this for, say, Gmail and GCal users? I could see it being technically possible, but Google seems pretty likely to both frown on this and be capable of prevention.

</comment><comment><USER24> > But monthly was a better indicator, because someone consistently on the > service for a full month was likely there to stay.

That is not what a monthly active user is, even at Facebook. A MAU logs in once per month, a DAU logs in once per day.

<comment><USER25> Yeah exactly, and I think it was DAU/MAU that Facebook started obsessing over, not just MAU.

Is there a difference between an "active user" and just a "user"?

<comment><USER26> A "user" is an account. Active means logged in at least once in X periods.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> It's not a mystery; Facebook was getting people to upload their contacts and mining those for People You May Know. Some ex might still have the divorced spouse in contacts, particularly if they share a kid. Two clients of the same psychiatrist will both have their shrink's number in contacts.

</comment><comment><USER28> Imagine being talented and having your big heroes journey be within the context of something that is a net negative for the world.

</comment><comment> Funes- Yes, Facebook got into our e-mail accounts. Yes, Twitter did too. They--plus Instagram and WhatsApp (all part of FB)--sell our data, corrode our personal lives, society as a whole, and democracy. Unfortunately, complaining about it won't be effective, as it's been proven to fail miserably for years. The only thing that's going to stop this is coming up with FOSS, fully distributed, not for profit alternatives that can do a good job at connecting people and serving humanity.

</comment><comment><USER29> I'm pretty sure Facebook used to suggest people who searched for your name as a "Person You May Know".

<comment><USER30> Facebook absolutely did this. A couple years ago I had a junior dev under me that management would not allow me to fire. And it's so much worse than just the person searching. His feed recommended my close connections to him just because I watched his page.

He spent 75% of most days working for personal clients outside our company. The remainder of his days were spent pimping his projects on Facebook to build his personal brand. He was not a rock star programmer. His work was beyond subpar and he needed extra time, not less. We weren't connected but I stalked his profile for time stamps and evidence. He lived at least 1.5 hours outside my locations except for the office.

One day he overheard me and another coworker discussing Facebook oddities and he interrupted, "Facebook keeps recommending (insert my wife's name) as a connection." He did not know my wife's name and they had never been in proximity of one another.

<comment><USER31> Interesting story but why mention that you were not happy with his work? It just seems orthogonal to the story (that FB suggested your wife, implying the social graph was built via your workplace to your wife and that he may have searched for you and you for your wife).

Not to dismiss your story, I am just interested about the reasoning.

<comment><USER30> No problem. I was just trying to give a little context for why I was stalking the guy. In trying to avoid looking like a creeper I see how it just came off as petty. Neither was my intent. I appreciate the check.

<comment><USER31> Ah, thanks that makes sense.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> I deleted my original Facebook account almost 5 years ago, and this is slightly off topic but I recently made a brand new facebook account just to use marketplace, I gave the bare minimum of information you could give and even used a brand new email address, as soon as I entered my phone number to verify my account I got the creepiest friend recommendations, they must have been pulling them from whatsapp because they were insanely accurate, and that was just with my phone number, with a brand new account and a brand new email.

</comment><comment><USER33> Ah, the wonderful feature the spies on my location to suggest me friends that are in my phone book, but aren't connected on Facebook in any way whenever I get to actually hang out with them.

</comment><comment><USER34> LinkedIn does the same thing. The first week of my new job I even started getting the spouses of my new-coworkers in my LinkedIn "people you may know" feed.

</comment><comment><USER35> Perhaps we should rename social media to viral media.

</comment><comment><USER36> Almost everything grows "exponentially" when it grows (companies, population, virus infections etc). When exponent is 0.000000001 it is also "exponential" grows. And decline is also usually "exponential". It is basic math and common sense. The author actually meant "fast", and the word "exponential" is a marker of poor quality title.

<comment><USER37> Exponential means your input is the exponent, eg y=2^x or y=e^x.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Facebook also uses whatsapp contacts to show pymk. I added someone on whatsapp whom I never met, but was dealing for business in different continent and was shown in facebook very next day. I was not surprised, but decided to stop using facebook soon.

</comment><comment><USER39> The most fun feature and also one of the biggest reasons I quit Facebook is that the people you unfollowed would get you in their PYMK list to punish me for silently unfollowing them.

</comment><comment><USER40> It's also freakishly location sensitive lately. Like people sitting <5 meters of me rather than the previous...in same part of building level

</comment><comment><USER41> For everyone ITT complaining about FP/IG/WA... If you are still using them, why? Why can't you just walk away?

</comment><comment><USER42> Facebook ... the coronavirus of the internet.

</comment><comment><USER43> You got a product when your users interact with other users while you sleep.

</comment><comment><USER44> Paywalled so I'll just barf my opinion about my feelings on that feature. I get recommended the most random people who are friends-of-friends I've never met. There have been so many bad suggestions that I assume they're all wrong.

I guess everyone else had the complete opposite experience based on the article title

<comment><USER45> I think they just err on the side of false positives. You can always ignore the friend suggestion if it's someone you don't know. If they fail to suggest someone you do know, that's a missed opportunity.

Some of this is inevitable. For example, their algorithm was eager to suggest one particular person to me, and it did so multiple times even though I did not know the guy. It was someone who had worked at the same company as I did, in the same department, but quit the company slightly before I was hired. So he and I had easily 10 Facebook friends in common. Facebook had good reasons to suspect that I knew the guy. Even though I didn't, I might have, and they have no way of knowing for sure, so they might as well just ask.</comment></comment>


If you want to became famous, make popular library, then break it - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/terser-js/terser/issues/251#issuecomment-460196394 <comment><USER2> other user to another user> _It was off topic. That tweet is not about bug. Don 't panic._

maintainer> _Sorry about those tweets. I thought it was a plugin issue not a terser issue. Fixed in 3.16.1_</comment>