Ask HN: I received a great offer, but am unsure about relocating - <AUTHOR> I recently received a compelling offer from a major company out in SV. Career wise, this is my dream job, or at least it seems that way. Now that I have the offer, I am having some major second thoughts about relocating out to the Valley.
Part of it is fear of the unknown and stress of relocation(even though the company will cover all relo). Another, more critical part is that my girlfriend (mostly) does not want to uproot and move either. We had been planning on moving in together prior to this offer, but now everything has been turned upside down. We've talked over it pretty extensively, and as it stands now she really does not want to go, and while I have my concerns, I lean towards taking the plunge.
My fear is that I may need to choose between a great offer or the girl I am likely going to propose to. So I ask HN: those who have had a similar decision to make, what did you do? How did it turn out? If you ended up declining, how did you go about it and how did it turn out?
I'm not really looking for advice on what I should do (I am aware that it's my decision), but more on how you came to your decision, your thought process, etc. I know I should be excited to have a great offer, but the stress of the relocation decision is quickly turning this into the toughest decision I've faced. <comment><USER2> I'm going to go against most advice here. Go for the job.

I've been in your position. I moved to the USA from Australia to work my dream job. While there I met the girl I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with. She decided to move to the UK. I dropped everything to follow her.

I lived in a city that I did not find interesting.

I worked a job just for the money (you can imagine how quickly I burnt out).

I was surrounded by people every day that I couldn't connect with.

Over a year later and now I'm finally getting back to what I want to do with my life. We're not on this earth for long mate, make the most of your time.

<comment><USER3> I agree 100%. Don't run your life around a girl. If something happens and you split you will regret that choice the rest of your life.

Go live the life you want and she might follow you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If you were able to land that job you will have no problem landing other ones. Software engineers are one of the hottest professions right now and jobs are both high paying and plentiful. Jobs in SV probably pay the highest but if you aren't willing to relocate you may have to be willing to take a __slightly __lower salary. That being said, no matter where you live you should be able to find a job that pays well relative to the cost of living. Moving could damage or even end your relationship so maybe it is best to take a job closer to your girlfriend at least for now well you are still figuring out what you want. In a few years should you change your mind there will be plenty of SV jobs still there waiting for you.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks - that's largely been my thought process as well as I think things over. I just want to make sure that if I do pass, I maintain a good relationship with the company to keep future opportunities open. I've never actually declined an offer before, so it's all new territory for me.

<comment> jon-wood Any company worth working for isn't going to take it personally that you've declined their offer, especially if its for reasons mostly unrelated to the company themselves. I've even resigned from jobs with a company and then gone back to work for them later when circumstances changed with no hard feelings.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> _My fear is that I may need to choose between a great offer or the girl I am likely going to propose to._

I'm a woman. There is no way in hell I would move to follow a boyfriend to a new city. But, I did follow my _husband 's_ military career all over the world.

Have you considered proposing? Tell her you want to take the offer and you want her to go with you, as your wife. See if that resolves it.

<comment><AUTHOR> I have considered proposing. Was even planning on setting up a surprise once we moved in. Then this offer across the country came up and turned everything upside down.

I'd still do it in a heartbeat, but don't want her to think I'm proposing just to lure her across the country

<comment><USER5> Then you should tell her _exactly_ what you said to me here and see where the conversation goes after that. But, do give her a bit of time to digest it before you expect productive discussion. Maybe let her know the above, suggest she think it over for a day or two and get back to you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> The decision is based on what's most important to you. I know it sounds like a platitude, but it is what it is.

My boyfriend came from country A to country B to move in with me, at some considerable professional cost to himself (left PhD track in hot field with, admittedly, kind of useless supervisor, for boring cookie cutter "research" in my institute). We are not the youngest (mid-30s, early 40s), and we wanted to see if living together would make us or break us, after several years of long distance relationship. It was a risk, obviously more so for him than for me.

Four years later, I followed him back to country A, for a (not very big) cut in both our salaries, but more interesting jobs for both of us. He got a job offer, then I searched and found something for myself, too.

We are identifying quite a lot with our field / jobs, but the main decision driver was "us". For instance, I would have followed him back to country A no matter what, and he, in turn, wouldn't have taken the job offer in A had I also not found a job.

</comment><comment><USER7> I can't really explain how I arrived at this, without telling too much life story. I can only say that several painful mistakes eventually taught me not to prioritize anything over a genuine relationship. Jobs are cheap. Love is dear.

<comment><USER2> That's interesting. I've come to the opposite conclusion.

I'm curious about your story, care to share it?

<comment><USER8> I'm not the OP or the person who made this comment, but I totally agree with his sentiment.

There is more that goes into it than this, but I want to focus on two main factors that really define your choices.

1) Your previous relational success/failure. If you struggle, we tend lean back into things we are good at = job. Just because it's natural, doesn't mean its right.

2) your current age (you become more self aware over time). I can speak personally that 23 year old me would take the job, but 33 year old me would go for the girl. There are soooo many good jobs. Finding someone you want to live with is much more rare...depending on the person ...extremely rate.

Regret over relationships sucks... most the time it's gone forever. Regret over job ...just quit.

<comment><AUTHOR> Age is a great point. I'm 30. I think back on previous relationships and it sounds like an easy decision to take the job. This relationship, with this girl, not so much.

My dream scenario is i keep the job and the girl, so I need to find a way to make that happen

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Stick with the girl. Use the offer in negotiations for a better local job. Love is way more important than career as long as you're not poor.

I chose the girl (dropped out of college and started working in my career at a low level to afford housing together) and ended up making waay more money in the long run thanks to her help.

</comment><comment><USER10> If the girl is gonna leave you for that reason or is this simple things gonna hurt your relationship, I'm sorry to say you this, but perhaps it's not the right kind of girl for you.

From what I see, it's something that you want, and in the end, it's a job, something which enables you to pay your bills and be an adult, something you depend on.

So, I would just do it. When I've got an offer to move to Germany and wanted to go there, my partner just did with me, even though she had to struggle a bit with the language to then find a job, she did it, now she's happy about it, just as she was we came here. And in the end, this can also go away, and you'll be stuck with your old town, no girlfriend and your poor choice.

If you don't do it and stay with her there and do what was your plans before, it's very likely that this will become a subject when you fight and this could be even worse, you would feel that this specific decision as dragged you down future-wise in life, getting you to blame her perhaps forever.

I know this can look individualistic. But seriously, there's special people everywhere, you could move in and find a new love, I don't know. I feel that if you are made for each other, you would like to be part of the plan of one another, or to respect and do the best to support the interest of your partner, as for instance, when you are married, you indeed got a contract which in case you get divorced, you get 50%, so even in economical terms it would be great to take decision to go wherever pays best for the couple. If my wife would get a good job and I could just stay at home and keep things tidy until I would also find one, I would definitely do it, why not? :-)

my 2 cents.

<comment><AUTHOR> When you were moving to Germany, how much did your partner not want to go as well? Did it take a lot of convincing? How did you structure your discussions?

Thanks for your input though. Helpful to know others out there have been in similar situations.

<comment><USER10> I asked her, she told me: WHAT? LETS GO! She was more happy than me about what we've accomplished. The deal is that, this shouldn't be taken as your own accomplishment, but more of the couple, as it's life changing. Of course, relationships are different and so are people, so perhaps you aren't that close to her and vice-versa, and it's something that work for you both.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I would go for the job.

Hate to assume too much about your cultural background but my thinking is: unless there is a concrete commitment between you and your SO in the form of marriage, you should not be tied down to your current location no matter how good of a person they are and how well they treat you etc. when something like this comes up.

I have relocated to different cities during my career - 3 times to be exact. I have recently relocated to a new country in a another continent. You're right there is some amount of churn and stress involved in the process of the change. But that is only for the first 3-4 months after which you settle into a level of comfort.

However, every time I made the move I have looked back and felt that making the move, enduring the stress of change, was totally worth in the end in terms of the vast improvements in opportunities, personal development, financial gains and the many many new avenues that opens up and the new people that I met were totally worth the short term 'pain'.

<comment><USER12> That's a pretty conservative view on relationships. There is a whole spectrum of commitment that doesn't involve getting imaginary figures or the government involved.

<comment><USER11> I agree that you don't have to get imaginary beings involved.

However, I disagree that a vague verbal or non-verbal understanding is sufficient to make one's commitment to the other concrete. It is not enough to inspire confidence in anyone. If your commitment is really that concrete and real what is keeping you from registering it with the government? It shouldn't really bother you - a mere formality. From making it widely known to everyone around you that yes, you are committed to me. Surely if I mean that much to you, and you are as committed as you say you are, this shouldn't be a problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> It's a complicated predicament. Who's the primary earner? Have you tried proposing something like, let's try it for a few months and if it doesn't work out we can move back? That way the move doesn't feel so permanent and will give her time to enjoy the Bay Area.

It sounds like you're young, treat the relocation as a temporary thing. If it's a company that's going to make your resume then I look at it as a one to two year commitment and then you can do whatever you want. I would say try and also spin the travel, explore new areas, be adventurous kind of lifestyle, home will always be there, and since you don't yet have kids I would travel explore and enjoy the heck out of whatever time you've got left.

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd be the primary earner initially, but she works in tech as well so shouldn't have problem finding work.

Definitely will be using temporary/exploration angle in my sales pitch to her :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I'm not in your shoes, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

The biggest red flag to me is this quote:

>My fear is that I may need to choose between a great offer or the girl I am likely going to propose to.

This seems like an unfair ultimatum for her to give you. Maybe the reason why she is putting on the breaks isn't about the relocation. Its possible she doesn't share the same vision of the future as you.

At the end of the day there are plenty of fish in the sea, both in terms of jobs and significant others so do what feels right and don't look back.

</comment><comment><USER15> Who do you want to be: (a) the guy who moves across the country to advance his career (to take his "dream job"), or (b) the guy who lets the opportunity pass by to stay near a girl who isn't substantially committed (i.e., not married or engaged) to him?

I do think there's room for a third option where you take the job and get the girl, but you will need to figure out if you are actually going to propose to her or if you are just "likely going to propose".

</comment><comment><USER16> Reassuring (and a little surprising) to see the comments here mostly against relocating, which is my take too. Jobs in SV can turn out to suck in unanticipated ways veeery quickly. Regret over relationships is always greater than regret over jobs, in my experience.

</comment><comment><USER17> Just an opinion but, jobs are jobs, and relationships are really whats most important in life. Don't leave this human you care about for the potential of something better career wise.

</comment><comment><USER18> I was faced with this same decision. SO didn't come with me and I was broken up about it until we reconciled and she eventually joined me (at significant financial cost to me). It was a worthwhile life experience but we ultimately moved back to our original home and are both much happier. In retrospect I can't say I made the wrong choice but it was rough for a bit there for me personally

ETA the housing situation is bad enough in SV that I definitely wouldn't do it again

</comment><comment><USER19> It's probably not your dream job, but SV is a unique place filled with dreamers. It's hard to replicate the experience anywhere else.

</comment><comment><USER20> I suggest go with flow. You are not yet seriously(wife, engaged or not prposed) committed in relationship.

I would say take the job as it will help you long run. Relationships are very uncertain and you do not know what this girl wants.

Take the job and tell the girl about your plans and go with flow.

</comment><comment><USER21> I've been on both sides of this situation.

My ex unexpectedly landed his dream job at one of the big tech companies. We had been together for around a year, and were looking at buying a house together. Using the "L" word, met the parents, were chatting about getting married and how we might have kids (being gay means that requires more planning). He doesn't have a college education, but was really good at what he does, so it was kind of a no brainer that he'd take that job. I had no interest in moving to the Bay Area. I loved where I was living, and that's where my family and close friends are. We ended up breaking up as a results and aren't on good terms (he left without saying goodbye and I, uh, handled it less than professionally). [as an aside: while I don't necessarily think there were problems in our relationship, I do acknowledge that it's possible that he wanted an easy out of the relationship which this job provided for him]

Flash forward a few years, and I'm dating another guy. We've been together for about 6 months when I win a couple of coding challenges and get some offers for jobs in the Bay Area. Until that point, I had been on this 12-18 month cadence of looking for new jobs. Existing jobs weren't really giving raises, and the work wasn't super interesting... I was basically a glorified report writer for large companies. So, I decided to make the jump, and ended up first in a health tech incubator, and later at a well known health tech company. My bf has no interest in moving to the Bay Area, but he comes out and visits every few months, and I go back home about once a month to see him and hang out with friends and family.

There's no winning on either side. For me, it was clear that the kind of work that I want to do is in the Bay Area. There's definitely a more "let's build it" or "let's solve these problems" attitude, instead of "we just need a paper pusher" kind of attitude. I like being able to wear hoodies to work and not being looked down upon. I like being able to go to meetups and see the folks who build software that I use. I think it's pretty cool to grab lunch with colleagues at google or apple. Beyond work, I've grown to love hiking. I like that there aren't mosquitoes really here. The climate is right for me. There's a pretty long list of things that I like.

I think I was an idiot to not follow my ex out to California. I was so sure about the direction of my life at the time that I couldn't really see any other alternative. And it was really stupid that I just came out here a few years later anyway. I think my bf is an idiot for not following me out here now. But, honestly, we've made long distance work for the most part.

My unsolicited advice is that relationships are incredibly important, but so is living your life. Work is such a large part of your day, and you probably want to feel challenged and interested in what you're doing. Personally, I can't picture myself working at _any_ job back home at this point. That'll probably change, but until then, unless my bf plans on fully supporting me financially, this is where I need to be. So, if that's similar to how you feel about work, then you should take the offer. Hopefully your gf won't be an idiot like I was.

<comment><USER8> "My unsolicited advice"

Actually - it's the opposite. It's super solicited :) .....(and it appears super relevant as well)

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> SV isn't worth it. There are other jobs.

I guess it really depends on whether or not you're actually gonna propose to the girl or not though. Decide that and then your job decision becomes easier.

</comment><comment><USER23> You will grow the most if you choose the more difficult path. Second, it is worth growing a lot while you are young; this process is more painful in your 30s.

<comment><USER24> I do not agree. Just because something is hard does not mean it is worth doing. There are lots of things one can do that are hard, and most of them probably aren't worth doing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I'm going to say something that may not go well with others here and may be repulsive at first. Hear me out though.

There are 2 issues here and they are separate.

Issue #1. Is it worth relocating to SV for your "dream job"?

A few things to note are:

\- There are no "dream" jobs. That's a myth. You are building someone elses vision and domesticating yourself further.

\- What will your net worth become after 1, 2, and 3 years after this job relative to current opportunities of where you are at now. Will you actually get ahead and achieve your Real dreams and life purpose, or merely toil away in a land far from loved ones and spend precious years somewhere you do not want to be.

\- Why do you have to move? That says something about how needy the employer is. They probably have games, "free" food, and noisy open offices.

Issue #2. Fear of the loss of love(r)

\- Are you genuinely happy and secure in your relationship? If you were going to propose. You would have done so already and not weigh different options. Men are decisive and when they are not, it is because their intuition ia telling them something.

\- If she would not move with you. Would you move if she "got her dream job offer". How would that play out a) she took it or b) she didn't take it and "stayed" with you. Reflecting on this question will reveal something to you about the quality of your relationship, as well as the power dynamic and is useful analysis.

\- Do her goals and yours line up? Moving in together is Common Law marriage. Look up the stats on how many women get pregnant in such situations after X months. Apply an estimate for when you will have your first child (if she wants kids and you both can biologically have them). Decide if you really want this and are ok with the probability.

\- Are any underhanded tactics such as "if you loved me, you would stay" being used or mentioned? If anything resembles this uncomfortable line of questioning, then it's time to take a hard look at whether it is the right thing to continue being together.

Hope this gives something to think about and meaningful insights as a result.

There are 6 big fears that a person can have. And I suspect a couple are at play and hindering decisive action.

Also, I'm going to be hard on you with the passive language:

"I recently received a compelling offer..."

So you mean that an offer landed on your lap from the heavens, with no volition or involvement from yourself?

Or did you mean that you DELIBERATELY sought out a killer opportunity and nailed it?

If it fell from the heavens, then it wouldn't be a discussion point. I am suspecting it is the latter. Your behaviour and choices are telling you something. Do not second guess yourself and do not let the fear of the loss of love get in the way of your happiness. She is your girlfriend. Not your wife. Not the mother of your children. Not your sister. Not your mother.

</comment><comment><USER26> I've been there.

I'm a marketer, and back when I was fairly junior in my career and working at ad agencies, the small agency I was at hit some rough times. I was let go, but they gave me two weeks notice and within that time I secured three other offers.

One of the offers was in Troy, MI at a very reputable agency on a big auto account. Somehow I had convinced them that I was at a Director level when I was like three years out of school, but it was the beginning days of digital media, and I knew more than most so was able to really sell myself.

Anyway, so the role would require I move from where I lived in Chicago at the time to somewhere near Troy. I had just started dating a wonderful woman and was incredibly torn. Do I go for an early career boost to salary and comp and end what seemed like the most promising relationship I'd been in at that point in my life (since she would not have relocated at that point in our relationship)? Or do I stay local and take less pay than the other opportunity (still a nice bump over what I had been at) and stay with her.

In the end I turned down that offer in MI to take the Chicago offer. As luck would have it, the auto account I was going to work on (Chrysler) went bankrupt two weeks later.

I got awesome experience at the agency I chose, and realized I would have been WAY out of my depth at the place in MI given my actual experience, and would probably have been setup for failure.

Shortly after, she and I moved in together. A few years and jobs later, I ended up marrying her and back in 2013 we both moved for work again (well, mostly because I was sick of Chicago winters) to the Bay Area where we've been ever since. While things are insanely expensive here, I love the weather and lifestyle I have here that I could never have in Chicago.

Here's the thing...soul mates are a bit harder to find than jobs, especially when you are in an in-demand field and are fending off recruiters with a stick. If you can get a job offer at your dream company, you can get a job offer at a slightly less dreamy company and make things work on the relationship side. Or your relationship might implode and you might be stuck regretting not making the jump. It worked out for me and I have zero regrets, but that's survivor bias.

Other options might include seeing if they'll let you work remotely or seeing if she'll agree to move temporarily and reassess at a given point.

I'm not clear how senior you are in your field, but relocation can be a bumpy ride depending on how much support you would have from them. Relocating while moving in together for the first time adds major stress and bumpiness. If you feel this could be the one, you should do everything you can to stay with them and make things work. If you are not sure or have doubts, you might need to do some real soul searching.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's actually one of her big concerns. We were planning on moving in, but still haven't lived together. Now I'm asking her to quit her job and move across the country, without a job, to live with me. So I understand where she is coming from.

It's a tough spot indeed. I've got some time to think it over or sell her on it. Thanks for replying - this is a super tough spot for me and I appreciate your input

<comment><USER2> You may have already done this and if so ignore my advice. :)

Get her to sit down with you and have her just say everything on her mind. Don't interject with solutions or if anything she says is incorrect. Just listen.

Once she's completely expressed herself then let your brain digest it.

<comment><USER26> This is pretty critical advice. I'm sure many HN users like myself love to troubleshoot every single thing they can, and that is the first inclination when someone you care about is talking about their concerns or problems with something you are proposing.

But the thing is--even if you flat out disagree with what she is saying, she is not wrong for FEELING a certain way. And trying to interject troubleshooting basically says "your feelings are inaccurate." That tends to not go over well.

When contemplating major life events (and this would be three: moving in with someone new, moving across the country away from friends and family, and quitting a new job while needing to hunt for a new one), thoughts and emotions are often irrational and that's ok.

But if its one thing I've learned, its that feelings are always valid and simply listening to them to understand their perspective is way more useful than trying to stomp all over it and try to convert them to yours (at least initially).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> The US of A has clearly expressed its preference for the banana-republic template of gleaming high-rise condos next to impoverished shanty towns. Pick the high-rise.

SV will only disfigure your soul. The rest of the country will probably take your body along for the ride.

PS> If you come to feel that a lot of what SV does is "dirty", there's nothing stopping you socking-away those big paychecks and doing something righteous with them later.</comment>


Are Dashboard widgets coming to iPad? - <AUTHOR> http://fury.com/2010/02/do-the-ipads-missing-apps-point-to-a-multitasking-dashboard/

<comment><USER2> Interesting theory. It meshes nicely with the UI paradigm, doesn't devalue native apps, and would open an avenue of development a notch above web-apps. Quite plausible.

On iBooks being missing from promo shots: this is because is not included on the device. Quoth Apple's "Features" page: _Download the free app from the App Store and buy everything from classics to best sellers from the built-in iBookstore._ This is apparently because they've only made deals to sell the content in the U.S.

</comment><comment><USER3> All of the iPhones competitors now have widgets and the iPad launcher UI looks surprisingly un-Apple and sparse. I don't think anyone will be surprised if the iPhone OS 4 event right before the official iPad launch contains a "Dashboard"</comment>


PyBay2018 Talks and Tutorials are up - <AUTHOR> https://pybay.com/schedule/ <comment><AUTHOR> If you are local to the Bay Area and can afford to take a weekday off this is a chance to take half or full day classes from cool instructors (Raymond Hettinger, Paige Bailey, Wes Chun, etc) in a bunch of areas where Python is used - ML, Data Science and Viz, Web Dev, etc.

Or come over the weekend to hear ~40 talks from all those folks - I'm personally looking forwards to the keynote on AI Ethics from Rachel Thomas.

I've been volunteering with PyBay for all three years it has run. I'm happy to answer questions if you've got em...</comment>


Fifty - <AUTHOR> http://jacquesmattheij.com/fifty <comment><USER2> I hit 51 next month, and that's ... well.

These decadal anniversaries seem to get more onerous each time. 20? No problem, it just means you're not a teenager any more! 30? Okay, you're officially a grownup, but you can still party! 40 was pause for concern, but it isn't what it used to be, the threshold of middle age: that's 50. Oops ...

Well, as Terry Pratchett observed, inside every old man there's an eight year old wondering what just happened. I don't feel _emotionally_ middle-aged. But my knees creak in the morning, I've survived medical conditions that would have killed me if I'd lived a century earlier, I can remember events -- as an adult -- that happened 30 years ago, and I don't have the physical stamina, mental agility, or energy of a 30 year old any more. (Mind you, what they say about experience trumping youth and enthusiasm? It's not exactly true, but the experience factor makes up for a lot of the gradual cognitive decline that comes with age.)

Like Jacques, I'm less inclined to put up with fools -- but I'm also less inclined to get worked up over things. And I'm probably unemployable these days. (15 consecutive years of self-employment will do that to anyone.)

But the biggest thing I've noticed? What look like big opportunities, vanishing in the rear-view mirror of age. When you're 30 you can think in terms of going back to university or forming a new start-up. You've got time to plan a new career or nurture a business ahead of you. But by the time you've hit 50, the future is looking cloudy. You don't want to train for a new career to see you through the next 30 years because who the hell wants to be working to pay off student loans when they're 80? So you get locked into whatever track you set yourself running down twenty years earlier. Changing is hard because you have less of a future ahead of you to change _for_.

If you're under 35, my advice would be to think about that. Do you really want to be locked into doing more or less what you're doing now when you're in your sixties? If not, now is the time to change. The later you leave it, the harder it will be.

<comment><USER3> I'm in a similar place to the OP. I turn 50 in a week. I get told often I look in my 30s. The majority of my friends are in their 30s. Hung out for 6 months with 28yr olds forming a startup last year, they asked me to join them. With few exceptions I don't fit with people my age.

What I find frustrating is the society at large won't let me ignore my age. You get categorized all the time. Some meetup or dating event is 30-45. Some form has age categories. Visas to visit countries have age limits (as in we let students in but you're clearly too old to be a student). Articles all the time tell you who you should be, behave, for your age. Others tell you if you're XX age you can't do that anymore. Whatever it is. Can't go back to school. Can't learn a new language. Can't join a start up. Bla bla bla.

Sure, most people's first reaction is "ignore that" but it's oppressive. It's a viral meme that eats at your thoughts

Big life decisions are also harder because you start to realize each choice cuts off others so which choice to make?

<comment><USER4> Man I don't look forward of being 50. It's a hard time getting a decent programming job at 30, imagine 50 :(

<comment><USER5> 50 this year. Never had a problem finding good paying work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm 62. Still excited about what I'm doing. Love the fact that I can write programs in languages that actually work (as opposed to M$ Basic back in 1980s). Hardware that doesn't fail every 10 minutes, etc. O/S that does what you expect! I plan to continue creating new apps until 65 or 70. Who knows what happens then. It keeps me going and is better than hitting a little white ball into the woods!

Happy Birthday! May you have many more.

</comment><comment><USER7> I am 58 and can relate to pretty much everything the author wrote, but especially this:

        computer programs are now monstrosities of large numbers
        of layers of libraries cobbled together to create ever
        more slickly polished user interfaces showing ever more
        inane content and advertising.

I find it difficult to stay motivated to write software these days, for a few reasons. First, there are specialties. Years ago, you could be a generalist, and be useful writing software pretty much anywhere. And I'm not talking about just learning the latest fad language or framework. If you don't have a long background in neural nets, or transaction processing, or compilers, or you name it, you aren't going to be doing work that is _both_ useful and interesting.

Second, as the author says, programming these days is often just taking libraries, writing adapters, all to serve slightly more relevant ads slightly faster. What a huge fucking waste of time. After the 2008 financial meltdown, it was noted that the "best and brightest" young people were wasting their talents on the "financialization" of the economy, which did nothing good for nearly everyone. I see the same thing happening now, in software.

Third, like the author, I got tired of working for idiots and wasting my time on corporate voodoo, so I left for consulting. While that has much to recommend it, working pretty much by yourself definitely limits what you can accomplish. On the other hand, I have a lot more time to myself, and I'm enjoying traveling, visiting family and friends, sleeping late, and generally just doing whatever I want.

</comment><comment><USER8> Wow, my inbox just overflowed with people mailing me happy birthday, now I get it :)

Thanks to all!

<comment><USER9> You're lucky to know people who remembered. Don't take it for granted.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Nice post, Jacques. Luckily, I'm only 47.5. I've got a long time before I have your concerns of being 50.

I've found that the hardest part of getting older is the work you have to put into your mind and body just to slow the decline of age. You go from being in your 20's and eating all the donuts and burgers you wanted to.... to being in your 30's where you start having to watch what you eat and limit some portions... to being in your 40's where now I'm pretty strict with what I eat and how much. I hardly ever eat sugar or bread, much less the holy combination of the two in a donut.

One of the most disappointing aspects of getting older is my disillusionment with medical developments related to aging. When I was in my 20's, I thought that a lot of problems with aging would be solved within my lifetime. Surely, I figured, by the time I was 50, they'd have eradicated cancer, cured baldness, and developed other general techniques for rejuvenating the mind and body. No such luck, I guess. The older I get and view medicine through the lense of how it can help me with various aging problems, the more I realize that medicine is really still in its infancy. Medicine is fumbling around like the blind men feeling the elephant who don't know what they're touching. At the rate things have been progressing, fundamental medical miracles aren't years or decades away - they're perhaps centuries away... but I hope to be proven wrong.

That said, there are things I enjoy about getting older, like watching my kids turn into young adults. I hear that having grand-kids is fulfilling, although I hope to avoid that pleasure for at least another 10 years.

<comment><USER11> I completely agree about medical developments. However, as someone getting on in years (even older than Jacques), I'd just like to point out that ED medications are a godsend. I am being completely serious. You youngsters don't understand, but you will eventually.

Before Viagra and the like (or the somewhat older injectable fixes), your sex life was almost certainly over by 50 or 55. While I may be unusually horny for an old guy, that is a big fucking deal. I can't imagine facing another 20-30 years not getting laid. And because of advances in public health and medicine, that would have been an increasingly likely outcome, previous generations just being dead not too long after the plumbing stopped working. While the medical fixes are less than ideal, they do work, and I am very happy about it.

<comment><USER10> _I 'd just like to point out that ED medications are a godsend_

Hah, you got me there. Good point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Getting older gets you to focus. What is on that list of things I just know I will do someday given the time? Well, whatever it is, it just got smaller. But that doesn't really even matter. It is not about how much you do but about doing things well that really counts in life. Not just for yourself but for others too. And not just at age 20 when you have what feels like boundless energy but at age 50 (or whatever) when you have a greater degree of wisdom and wherewithal to offset the energy lapses that inevitably come with getting older. Don't rob yourself of the joys that come with aging by letting the limitations overcome you. Each part of life has its distinctive blessings. Make the most of them and be a blessing to others as well as to yourself. If you do that, you will do well and you will age gracefully to boot.

Very thoughtful post from a very thoughtful guy. Happy birthday, Jacques.

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm early 40s at the moment. I love technology, and love programming and system tinkering/admin in particular. I'm currently a CTO/CIO in a niche industry, although I write code almost daily and participate in various technical trenches many CIOs wouldn't venture into on a daily basis due to lack of resources.

I am sadly terrified of getting older. Not because I fear death (well, maybe a little), but I fear the silver ceiling this industry seems to place on many. Sure, the CIO/CTO thing might help, but I'm not banking on it. I've seen so many qualified folks get replaced by younger, unqualified ones just because of the way IT tends to favor the young.

Now I look at my own daughter, who is very interested in following in my footsteps and is already programming and Lego mindstorm'ing, and I really, sincerely hesitate to push her in that direction. I love the craft and think it's very personally rewarding as a creative outlet, but not only is there this silver ceiling, but to stay current you are _constantly_ required to be learning. I spend almost all my spare time working to stay current. I see friends who are lawyers or accountants, and while I would probably die of boredom in either field, there seems to be nowhere near the level of effort to stay current in those fields.

While I don't think the constant learning requirement has a solution, I really hope to get some time in the future thinking deeply about the silver ceiling problem. Not just for me, but for my tech friends. I personally employee two 60+ folks on my team, and they're great resources. I wish other companies would view them in this way. It seems there is something which could be done...even if it's a company which distinguishes itself by making a point of hiring senior, aging folks for solving problems which require that level of experience. However, that of course has it's own difficult problems to solve (namely, a senior employee likely has a lot of his/her own personal overhead to cover, so salary requirements will be understandably greater). Still, if the problems were out there, perhaps a company like that could thrive. Perhaps.

Anyway, just the ramblings of a early forties techie who thinks/worries a lot about this. One day I'll take action either way, because there will come a time where there is no other choice ;)

<comment><USER14> "namely, a senior employee likely has a lot of his/her own personal overhead to cover, so salary requirements will be understandably greater"

I wouldn't assume that, once the mortgage is paid off and kids have left home the cost of living plummets. In fact there could be a real cost advantage if nobody else is offering them a job.

<comment><USER15> That's a big and dangerous assumption.

Take the Bay Area...many people living here now that will likely never be able to buy a home if prices stay even close to where they are (let alone ever pay it off if they did). So then they have large mortgages or high rents.

There's also increased risk of major medical expenses, the baggage of paying for things like divorces, college, etc.

<comment><USER14> Right now you can assume those with high mortgages are in their twenties and thirties, someone in their fifties probably sorted their housing problem twenty five years ago.

<comment><USER15> Again--that's a big assumption. Would love to know what data you are basing that on.

It is dangerous to assume a certain narrative about a certain demographic like that.

<comment><USER14> It's not a big assumption, or did you think peoples mortgages increased with age?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Welcome to "this side" \- the secret is that there are no sides, you might become a day more experienced today than you were yesterday. I don't feel (or act) my age and since I don't celebrate my birthday (or even let others know it's occurred), their guess as to my age is always way low.

In any case, you may not consider yourself employable, but there's almost always a bias for the "gets things done" person. If your blogging and comments here on HN are any indication, I don't think you'd have an issue with someone that's truly looking for the right person. Many institutions are looking for the politically correct person and like you, I don't have time for them.

Fijne verjaardag :-)

<comment><USER9> I think you hit the nail on the head: "Many institutions are looking for the politically correct person..."

Politics so often dictates who companies hire and influence factors like gender, age and sex. Sad.

Though being able to work with people matters and being nice/kind is a good quality to have, the focus on making sure the right backs are scratched as become so pervasive in the corporate world that it actually holds back progress.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> As someone in my early-towards-mid 40s, is it really hard to stay employed? I get that lots of folks are into consulting at this age or other versions of self-employed, but as a guy who got into this field fairly late, I'm concerned that I'm going to end up 50 and jobless which will _really_ mess with my retirement plans.

</comment><comment><USER18> Happy birthday from a 20 years away. I really enjoyed reading ideas from your perspective and I like the way you think. My only hope for the future, is that we could still read and comment other stranger's stories on the internet without violating some bullshit law and without needing to validate our identity with a DNA sample in order to express ourselves .

</comment><comment><USER19> So much of this rings true for me, and I'm a few years away from 40.

As an expat living in the Netherlands who has never really believed in "formal speech", it really takes some getting used to when people (usually a lot younger than me) call me "u". I always think "wow, this kid is so polite, how bizarre!". I still haven't really gotten the hang of when _I_ should use the formal you, and constantly call strangers "je". I've only ever had one Dutch person actually state explicitly that I should call him "u". It is maybe not a coincidence that he was a bit of a jerk in general.

At least living in the Netherlands, our creaking knees will always be able to bicycle where we want to! No big annoying hills like there seems to be everywhere back in the UK, or in other countries. ;)

Gefeliciteerd. :)

</comment><comment><USER20> Thanks Jacques. I first read about you almost 15 years ago. I think you did an interview about the creation of webcams and starting the first webcam community. What struck me was the typical Dutch resentment for success and those that dare to stick their necks out. Commentators would say you were lying or embellishing or try to downplay your successes. That typical envy. I hope you are now totally over that.

A few years back you took a few hours to just chat with me, in a period when I was really depressed and did not believe in myself. Thank for you that. It really helped and you demanded nothing in return. A very approachable, commendable spirit -- I hope there are people around you who do the same for you.

Jacques. Thanks man! Congrats, and here is to many more years!

</comment><comment><USER21> I'll be hitting 50 in a couple of years, and like Jacques I've noticed my tolerance for bullshit and injustice has decreased. I've tentatively put the former down to a subliminal (mostly) awareness of having less time to waste. I feel more focused.

I've also noticed that my tolerance for cynicism has decreased significantly in the last few years. I'm not totally sure why, but I suspect that I've come to see cynicism (particularly about politics and environmental issues) as the laziness that fuels injustice.

I'd be interested to know of other people's experiences.

<comment><USER22> 37 here, and that is _exactly_ how I feel. I'm hardly an optimist about how a lot of things in the world are going, but world-weary cynicism (the world is shit, it'll never change, everyone is corrupt, etc) grates on me as cloying and juvenile. I always end up thinking it says more about the person than the world itself.

These days, I usually find myself starting to argue and push back against that, and occasionally I do end up coming down to "So the world is shit, you're not even going to try to do anything about it, what in life do you have to be proud of about yourself at this point?"

I feel better for not putting up with it, but it has led to some tense arguments with extended family, friends, hairdressers (haha, seriously).

<comment><USER23> > what in life do you have to be proud of about yourself at this point?"

I like to think that at least by not killing myself I've made a huge contribution to the happiness of my friends and family, even if the world as a whole is a hopeless cluster of growing misery.

<comment><USER24> I agree - the older you are, the more chances you've had to peek behind the curtains and see how truly corrupt the machine and people within it really are. Sure, try to make a difference here and there, but I'd advise not going too far out of your way, and never put your personal livelihood on the line. Better to focus that energy on family, friends and community, where you can make a difference.

<comment><USER22> Never put your personal livelihood on the line to make the world a better place?

That's terrible, cowardly advice.

<comment><USER24> If you're surrounded by cowards / people who will sell out and join the corruption given the chance, it's neither cowardly nor terrible advice. Everyone has to learn this lesson on their own I think.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> > _When I'm in a group of people my own age I feel as though I'm around old > people, I can't help it._

This one really rings with me. Unfortunately, many old people act like old people. I once worked at a software agency where even the more ambitious _young_ people acted like old people.

Age is just a number, but the only one who decides to fully favour the comforts of the known to the appeal of the new and risky is you. I know 80-year olds who prefer ipads and I know 25-year olds who prefer IBM ClearCase.

<comment><USER25> By the way, Jacques, I'm really curious about that story about not working for Eckart Wintzen. He died just when I started getting into the software industry at all, but his writings are very inspiring and he's been a force of positive change around me even after his death. Did you write that up anywhere?

<comment><USER8> No, but I can write it up here and now.

I got to know Eckart because we both invested in the same company ( [http://www.infocaster.net/](http://www.infocaster.net/) ) and one day after a shareholder meeting we decided to have a follow up with just him, my business partner Joyce and myself.

Eckart outlined his vision about the things he wanted to do now that he had a 'full toolbox' and lots of time and we saw eye to eye on so many subjects that it got me thinking.

After leaving with Joyce we went for dinner near Zeist where he had his offices and I told her that I was totally stunned by how our ideas dovetailed, only that Eckart actually had the tools to realize his vision.

It's very hard to translate the kind of feeling Eckart radiated but think of it as total focus on improving the world. This very much shows in his various investments, for instance Greenwheels, several medical start-ups, a school and so on, as well as the people that he surrounded himself with (average < half his age).

One thing led to another, we had a brief phone call where I told him I'd be happy to shut down my own stuff and work for him even if it meant a significant reduction in income on my side, he said let's talk in two weeks (after he had gone to France and returned). The next time I saw him it was wadded up in burlap bags (ecologically sound) for his funeral... :(

I'm meeting with Sander (the guy who runs infocaster) later today, not a March passes that we don't think about it. My birthday is the 20th, Sanders is on the 21st and I'm quite sure that in both cases we're thinking more about what could have been than our birthdays.

It's a real pity, genuinely nice people are few and far between, I think Eckart was special in many ways and compared to your average winner takes-all entrepreneur he was a proverbial (and physical) giant.

All this will sound like fawning adoration to those that haven't actually met the man, to those that did it will sound like I'm probably not giving him enough credit.

<comment><USER25> Thanks for the writeup!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> > March 20, 2015

:P

</comment><comment><USER27> It takes about ten years to get used to how old you are.

</comment><comment><USER28> The problem with getting old is that one-by-one all the things that you dreamed of as young and you got to try when got older, feel old and demystified. Suddenly you look out and see less "magic", less mystery, less things to make you excited, fewer major surprises around the corner.

I'm only (//already) in my early 30s but it scares me to think how it might feel, at an older age, to not be able to see anything in the same exciting eye that a teenager does. And the things that might still feel exciting, to not be able to try, due to constraints that "grownups" have (health issues, family, work, other responsibilities, lack of friends willing to participate)

</comment><comment><USER29> Proficiat Jacques, appearently I'll turn 40 next week, it's just another arbitrary number. For example, you're 42 in base-12 (a much beter base). We're all in the same boat... you're old enough te remember Bobby McFerrin (now 65) don't you? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU)

<comment><USER8> > you're old enough te remember Bobby McFerrin (now 65) don't you?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeW0UcuQKps](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeW0UcuQKps)

<comment><USER30> I'll add this favorite: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CcnDi67qaI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CcnDi67qaI)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> «It doesn't get better: you get better.» (Louie)

</comment><comment><USER32> Happy Birthday! Prompted by your comment I found this from the Association of American Publishers: 'In the first three months of 2015 they (e-books) have plummeted 7.5% from the same period last year. Meanwhile paperback sales have increased by 8.9% giving further credence that people are switching back to print in greater numbers than originally thought'. I hope so.

<comment><USER33> A few years ago, I was the ultimate fan of ibooks/kindles. Still am in some regard - when talking about space or moving from place to place, lugging around any kind of books or physical media sucks. I did this before from one coast to the other and back (SF -> NYC -> SF). Lugging shit around is stupid..

I remember the first time I went to Japan in 2000. I was a little shocked how everyone seemed to be buried in their phones on the subways. Seemed a little weird, but after a while, I was like, meh, it's Japan.

Fast forward to 2015 and everyone has their face buried in their devices in the states. Walking. Driving (ugh). Bus. Stores. Subway. You name it. I do it too, of course, but not all the time. I still enjoy my walks around my city even if it's to re-appreciate the same things along the same route. There's something about disconnecting now; funny you have to even do this at all.

Books are a part of this. Not only the physical aspect, but words on a printed page that never change and always just are. It wasn't until recently that it dawned on me how important physical book authors are to society and culture. It's so easy to watch videos, movies, tv shows and nothing else. I love movies, but it's not the same thought process. I feel bad for people who are not encouraged to read more because they definitely do not know what they're missing.

To read a book...., _that_ is a bicycle for the mind.

I don't get to read as much as I want to, but whenever I go on vacation (which doesn't happen much either :-\\) I always being a few hard cover books. Yah, u lug them around, the additional weight sucks. But, having that book and picking out that chair or hammock, that's one of the best things ever.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I just turned 40 and whoa I've never felt such a drastic change previously, as ...

\- Im starting to lose my hair

\- I gained ten pounds a week or two after my birthday (lost it now after getting back to the gym); 5'10 178 now.

\- I suddenly succumb to a foot disease older men have to deal with... it came and went, but could come back. WTH?

\- Slight depression from all the above.

I want my 30s back!

<comment><USER35> It seems all relative... I'm 29 and wishing I was in my early twenties again. I'm seeing my younger ambitions slowly seeming less and less plausible. And yet, I've seen posts from 23 year olds wishing they had done more studying in highschool/college to get a better head start on their career.

Maybe it would help to try to imagine genuinely being another decade older in the same situation, looking back on today - and then do the thing you regret not doing!

<comment><USER36> That sounds like an idea worth trying.

Also keep a mens journal (which is just another name for Diary) - it is surprising and interesting how stupid I was ten years ago.

<comment><USER37> ^ Yes. I love my diary, and some of my entrires go back to when I was 18 (27 now). What gets to me is how drastic a mental change could be from just months ago to where I am now. I'll read something I wrote months ago and think "Ha, so young and foolish!" I genuinely think diaries are crucial to personal development because it allows you to see yourself speak honestly with the lens of an "outside" observer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Goddam base-10-centric view of things :-)

Happy Birthday!

<comment><USER39> Yup. Just turned out 30; feel depressed as sh*t.

<comment><USER40> Hey, hang in there, it's only two more years till you hit your hexadecimal twenties, which is where the real party is!

<comment><USER39> I keep telling myself that the difference between 1441148399 and 1441148400 is negligible, but to little (or no) avail. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I hit 50 two years ago. I didn't mind turning 50. It was the constant stereotyping that society(at least in the U.S.) that finally got to me.

I recall hitting 50 and not giving it much thought, but it seemed like when ever I turned on any from of media, I was reminded of all the pitfalls of getting older. It's so depressing, I am thing about getting rid of cable. I'll still watch movies on my devises, but I need to tune out the commercials, and warnings? And yes, I got it tobacco causes cancer. I smoke one, or two cigarettes a week, and been around people who smoked; yes--I got it. I raised my chances of getting cancer. Enough?

I have been kinda neurotic/hypochondrical my entire life; I don't want to be reminded daily I'm going to die. Oh, those cancer center commercials? I don't care how sick I was I would never go to one of those centers--just on principle. I really hope that company goes bankrupt. Actually, I wish we could ban all medical/Pharmacutical advertisement.

As to getting older, I don't like it. I had better ideas when I was younger. I guess because my testosterone is startling to go down, the world is definetly lets say-- a little less colorful? My sex drive is way down, but I'm kinda ok with that. I can focus on boring stuff better than when I was younger. And I find web developement boring! Sorry, I don't get excited about this industry. I'm drawn to it, but never got the romance some of you have for the industry? I am just a web developer, self employed, and always needed to do other things to make a living. Maybe that's why? Or, maybe I've never been totally in love with anything I've done? I have a ton of interests, but I never fell in love with any of them?

The one thing I really wished I did differently is I wish I made friends with people younger than myself? I know it sounds selfish, but it seems like so many people I knew are gone? For some reason, I didn't really like my generation. I found I had more in common with people who were 15 plus years older than myself? I had some really good friendships. Friendships that were solid. Friends that I could trust with my innermost secrets. I don't have that anymore. I'm not feeling sorry for myself, but don't do what I did. It's lonely.

That's about it. Oh, yea, if you have an anxiety disorder, getting older does releave some of the symptmology. When I was younger, I just couldn't relax. I still can't, but I'm better than I was?

If you ever bump into me, please don't call me Sir. I am still not my father, and don't think I will ever turn into him. I'm still scared, and don't have confidence. I still look at the rest of the world, and still don't feel I'm one of the grown-ups? I am not one of them! I've never fell like I'm entitled. I don't demand respect. I know I need to earn it. I don't understand mean/narcisstic individuals. I like some rap, but don't get Kayne, or Beaver? Don't think I ever will? I think tattoos are fine, but never got one. (I never got one because I thought they looked like bruises, and reminded me of people who had liver disease.(platelets not forming as they should?). In other words, I'm not really that different than the young man I used to be, just look older.

I sure miss my dogs! I wish they lived as long as we do?

Bye!

<comment><USER42> >It's so depressing, I am thing about getting rid of cable.

Do it. Doesn't matter if you are 10, 50, or 150, get rid of any media that shoves so much advertising down your throat. So much of it is set to cause the problems they try to resolve. Take skin cream commercials for teens with acne; watch how they may acne out to be this horrendous thing you must cure. Watching those ads do nothing to improve your life.

<comment><USER43> > getting rid of cable WTF??! Goddamn communists! Why don't you just move > North Korea already?!

My cable gods bring me wholesome entertainment with the naughty bits blurred or bleeped, so I don't have to feel or think nothing!

And my god man, they have beer commercials! AND pizza commercials! Come to think of it, why don't they have the beer and pizza commercials combined?

But I digress..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Happy birthday Jacques. This is definitely an interesting eye opener article for a young professional like me, giving a clearer picture about how life can be for a curious technical person at 50.

</comment><comment><USER45> The bit about not feeling your age is so true. I am a little bit younger, but I really don't feel that different to when I was 20 - maybe just a little less angry about the world.

</comment><comment><USER46> Look at it this way: even an old cat jumps into a tree like it was a young kitten. It simply doesn't know it is old. So why should we behave any differently?

</comment><comment><USER47> I'm turning 50 on October 1st. Thanks for the reminder!

</comment><comment><USER48> Happy birthday Jacques! I am not far behind you, and I have to say that I am loving my mid forties...

</comment><comment><USER49> I have a friend that is 53 that still does triathlons with people half his age.

<comment><USER50> Not uncommon, I'm 52 and still beat most of the men who are literally half my age. I even outright win a race once in a while if I'm not on the west coast (much more competitive, I've found). Granted, there's a bit of innate talent and hard training involved.

Frankly, I don't give it a lot of thought, I just run like I always have. It's not until someone else points it out that I'm like "hmm, I guess that _isn 't_ too bad for an 'old guy'".

As a sibling commenter pointed out, 50-ish is when the kids move out and you've finally got a little money and vacation time, as well as time to train. Time for that $7000 Colnago race bike you've always wanted, eh?

<comment><USER51> Interesting, isn't it?

I swim (since I was 13, that is > 37 years). I also don't train like a maniac any more but simply try to improve my style and keep my fitness. But I hardly meet anyone in the pool half my age who has the slightest chance to keep up. This is not meant as boasting at all. The good non-professional athletes seem to be > 40 these days.

Is that a sign that we don't have good trainers? Or do others only start to work out after the doctor starts to pale while looking at the blood analysis?</comment></comment></comment>


Why Advertising Is Failing On The Internet - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/03/22/why-advertising-is-failing-on-the-internet/ <comment><USER2> Just _slightly_ biased.

Also fails to understand how internet advertising is completely different.

>> "Consumers do not want to view advertising. Think of watching network TV news and remember that the commercials on all the major networks are as closely synchronized as possible. Why? If network executives believed we all wanted to see the ads they would be staggered, so that users could channel surf to view the ads; ads are synchronized so that users cannot channel surf to avoid the ads."

TV advertising is an annoyance. It stops you from watching the program you were watching. Advertising on the net is just extra data you can choose to take advantage of, or ignore. Add to that the fact that much of the internet advertising is commission based on sales which is completely trackable.

For a start, why would something like the Amazon affiliate program 'fail'? Will people stop buying things from Amazon? Will they suddenly stop buying them through affiliate links? I'd say probably not.

Don't believe the hype.

Also:

>> "My own research suggests that consumers behave as if they get much of their information about product offerings from the internet, through independent professional rating sites like dpreview.com or community content rating services like Ratebeer.com or TripAdvisor"

Doesn't really make sense, since TripAdviser gets a cut of each reservation - so it may be 'community content', but it's all still just advertising links.

<comment><USER3> >Advertising on the net is just extra data you can choose to take advantage of, or ignore.

Huh?

When I'm reading an article and there's big flashing graphics on either side of the text, that's an annoyance.

<comment><USER2> You might find it an annoyance, but it doesn't stop you reading the article. If you're one of those people that can't just ignore it if it doesn't interest you, you can block it pretty easily - small minority do.

I obviously disagree with the article, I find interesting things from adverts all the time - competitors, services I didn't know about, products I might think about buying some day. I _want_ to see adverts. Unobtrusive, targeted adverts that show me stuff I want.

Obtrusive flashing banner advertising makes up a tiny proportion of advertising, and isn't that effective at all.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Not really worth the time to read, same stuff that's been said before. Showing a user an ad while they're searching for something works amazingly well -- any other time it's a crap shoot.

For the foreseeable future I think the best way to advertise any web app or other online service is with a blog and as many helpful, informative, thought provoking posts as you can find the time to write. There are plenty of examples of successful companies that have used this model -- building a brand and a network simultaneously -- and there's no reason to think it's going anywhere.

<comment><USER5> > There are plenty of examples of successful companies that have used this > model

Do you mean they used their blog as the main marketing effort? I'd like to hear more about those.

It seems if the users are looking at your blog, they've found you already. Or perhaps those companies created thousands of other blogs that were only used for search engine optimization (linking back to their money blog)? That I can understand.

<comment><USER6> You're assuming that a purchase is done the instant a company/person is found. What a blog does is build trust, familiarity and credibility in a particular field. So there's two scenarios : one is a reader becomes familiar with you and purchases a new offering (creating a channel and selling into it), the other is a reader finds your product, skips through some of your blog posts and decides to purchase based on the fact you appear to know what you are talking about. (creating credibility)

Of course this only works if your blog posts are related to your product offering.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I don't think all internet advertising will fail - there is often an ad that I want to see on Google. I agree that obtrusive, tricky, seizure-inducing display ads are no replacement for anything, but I don't buy the basic premise that advertising on the internet is flawed.

I also don't like when academics ramble for pages and pages, without being able to succinctly express their ideas. This guy should do a tour in writing ad copy - I think that would have a very positive effect on his writing.

</comment><comment><USER8> Silly rhetoric lacking a clear argument and evidence to support the argument.

</comment><comment><USER9> Another problem with advertising is that usually I don't want the things that are advertised. (At least in the case of non-contextual display advertising.)

For example, when I read the NYT I see ads for Target. This is a bad deal for Target, because I already know they exist, and I buy toilet paper there every week anyway. I don't shop there more often because they don't sell anything I want, not because I don't know about them. (Other display advertising is similar. I know Pepsi exists, but I think it tastes like shit. So wasting money advertising isn't helping them; but improving their product would.)

<comment><USER6> Advertising is not always about convincing you to buy, or convincing you to change. A lot of brand building is simply to make you recognise the brand and keep it in your mind. This has obviously worked in the case of Target and Pepsi. There will always be a place for this type of advertising.

<comment><USER9> But without advertising, I wouldn't forget about it. I walk past Target everyday. I see Pepsi on the shelf at the store (actually, I don't... but most people do). Etc., etc.

Advertising doesn't bother me at all, but I would really appreciate it if they made a product I wanted isntead of spending their money trying to make me want something I don't.

<comment><USER10> "... made a product I wanted" = red ocean "...make me want something I don't." = blue ocean (some what) I believe that most minds are easier to nudge than we (non-marketers) classically believe.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Google is really no better than adware from the old days. Sure the service they provide is useful, but it's still adware in another package.

<comment><USER12> I've always found Google's business model vaguely insidious, like they're using my data against me.

<comment><USER9> It's kind of like walking in a store, the sales person asking "what are you looking for", and then the sales person trying to sell you that thing you're looking for. This may be "insidious", but it's generally helpful for both parties. Google ads are usually the same way. Google knows what sort of things I want, and it reminds me from time to time. They make money, some random advertiser makes money, and I get the thing I want.

<comment><USER12> For me, it's closer to walking in to a library, the librarian asking "what are you looking for", and then the librarian trying to sell me that thing I'm looking for (which she gets a commission for).

<comment><USER13> This model seems to work well for cars, high-end stereos, real estate, insurance ...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I would argue advertising is doing just fine, perhaps better than ever. I see sites like Engadget, Techcrunch and The Boy Genius as really just advertising. I'd argue I have RSS feeds that are effectively entirely advertisements for products and services: web services news, hardware news, software news, design (eco), tshirts, design (3d and architecture), and local performance events. Frankly, a large portion of the RSS feeds that are web content filters turn out to be products/services too.

That is just in RSS land. In Twitter/im land, I have things that are effectively advertising too.

</comment><comment><USER15> The overall positive sentiment towards [semi-traditional] ad-based business models in this conversation is very alarming.

The game isn't "improving advertising"; it's "reinventing communication between buyers and sellers".

Those two things are way different.

Think about it this way: the less we all focus on making ads better, the more polluted the mediascape becomes, _shrinking the pie for everyone_ ...instead of growing it.

(that last insight via @umairh)

</comment><comment><USER16> Why can't advertising work on the internet if such intrusive advertising can work through television ( atleast the companies think it works )

<comment><USER5> I bet TV ads stopped working as well when TV remotes became popular.

<comment><USER17> Remotes don't help that much if commercials are synchronized. You might as well just go to the bathroom.

HBO and movie channels break the synchronization.

<comment><USER5> > if commercials are synchronized

Are they? If there are 9 synchronized channels and 1 that's not. I believe that 1 wins, because everyone else switches there out of boredom.

<comment><USER18> In the States, PBS does not run commercials. Yet the scarcity of people who watch public broadcast may be evidence against that claim. (Maybe average people prefer commercials?)

<comment><USER17> PBS does run commercials in the US. They're just in a different form.

However, it is true that PBS commercials are not synchronized with commercials on the "standard" channels.

The reason that PBS doesn't win is that many folks prefer commercials to PBS....

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Currently, advertising only works on the Internet when people don't know it's advertising either because it is not labeled as such or because a confusing term is used (e.g., "Sponsored").

If you don't want to deceive users in this way, have ads about clever products (NOT clever ads, but clever products such as the Segway, Rubik's Mirror Blocks, etc.).

<comment><USER20> That's not true at all. Advertisements succeed or fail based on the nature of the ad. I've clicked Google ads before despite the fact that they're very obviously ads (different-colored backgrounds, text saying ads are ads). I've clicked Facebook ads, which are put in a special Ad Zone of the page.

Clever ads don't make me buy things, but they get my attention. Clever products? It's not a matter of clever, it's a matter of what I WANT. I would never buy a Segway because of an online ad.

There is one tried-and-true method of making an ad work, and it works every time: you make something people want, you find where you can put an ad that the right people will see, and you make sure your ad describes your product well. There's nothing "clever" to that, and there's no "confusing term" tricking people. It's a simple matter of finding a customer.

<comment><USER19> _I've clicked Google ads before despite the fact that they're very obviously ads (different-colored backgrounds, text saying ads are ads). I've clicked Facebook ads, which are put in a special Ad Zone of the page._

What percentage of Google's revenue comes from people clicking ads that they don't know are ads?

<comment><USER21> not as much as the amount that comes from fraudulent clicks.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Is Centuries-Old Wine Still Drinkable? - <AUTHOR> http://www.realclearlife.com/2016/08/21/is-centuries-old-wine-still-drinkable/ <comment><USER2> Interesting, although I'm not sure the CEO of the company selling the wine is going to be especially objective.

It does raise a question - for wines that a vintner wants to age for a _really_ long time, why would they use UV-transparent glass bottles and cork stoppers? Surely a glass bottle that's opaque to UV light would be better, as would a non-porous stopper. Even in the mid-19th century they had access to those things. Dipping the entire bottle in wax would do the job. I've never seen it done though (not that I'm any sort of wine expert).

<comment><USER3> These wines have never even left their cellars, so UV resistant bottles aren't really necessary. And uncorking an old bottle is part of the allure. Resistance to newer and more technically sound closures like stelvins (screw caps) is especially strong in the old world.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Yes folks, these wines will still be drinkable. I've had 1929 red Burgundies on more than one occasion and can confirm that aged wine is not only drinkable but enjoyable. I was in Bouchard's cellars last November and can tell you that their storage facilities are top notch.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Salient point (TIL)...

We also check our bottles regularly and replace the corks every 25-30 years, which gives us an opportunity to monitor the quality of the wine.

\---- Presumably they are checking its 'drinkability' among its other qualities!

</comment><comment><USER4> So is it drinkable or not?

<comment><USER5> I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that at some point during the last 30 years that yes it was drinkable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Did I miss the part where they answer the question?</comment>


The Subscription Metrics 8 Top SaaS Companies Obsess Over and Why - <AUTHOR> https://www.chargify.com/blog/most-important-saas-metrics-to-track/ <comment><USER2> Interesting, also hadn't heard of pushcrew (which it asked about), that also looks interesting.

</comment><comment><USER3> This website keeps crashing mi phone. Android 6.x LegacyOS

</comment><comment><USER4> Awesome, thanks for sharing!

</comment><comment><USER5> Thanks for sharing!</comment>


Ask HN: Should I quit my startup? - <AUTHOR> I'm a cofounder of a startup where I've been working for the past 2 years. I was a late addition to the team to get some technical chops on board (Company running for 1yr before me).
After I was brought in, I've coded the entire product from scratch, learning a lot along the way, and while that has taught me a lot that I otherwise might not have learnt, we never seem to have the budget to hire another developer, and I'm feeling quite overburdened.
Over time, I've noticed my level of enthusiasm and happiness go down, and I've become generally irritable. I'm a product guy at heart, and my CEO is an operations-loving guy who keeps throwing around buzzwords. He's grown the sales team over the last two years while neglecting the product team. It's an army of sales people selling a product built by 2 people sitting in a crummy faraway corner of the office, and that doesn't feel right to me. Now would be a good time to mention that the second person (designer & another cofounder) is leaving soon, and part of the reason (after other personal reasons) is that their potential was never realized here due to lack of product focus.
I've tried to win the CEO over so that he would support the product with the recognition and resources it needs, and largely I've been successful, but it is a lot of effort when he's built the company with an operations-first mindset, and I don't know if it's worth it.
I've fantasized about quitting a lot of times, and what's held me back has been the fact that there is no one else here that could fill my shoes and the entire tech platform might collapse without me keeping it up, and that I don't know what I could work on after this.
I should also mention that I'm currently 20, I dropped out of school, and this has been my first real job. I also think I am quite highly skilled for my age. <comment><USER2> Is the product deserving more engineer attention (I suspect it does, but you should still carefully consider the question because that could be how the CEO thinks). And if so, do you think you have done everything you can to convince the CEO, and allow more resources towards the product ?

I would try to speak openly to the CEO about the fact that you are considering quitting.

Also, what about equity/options/vesting?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I think the product could be better with more than 1 engineer working on it. Currently I have to support our app, landing pages, office IT, do sysadmin stuff, and automate things for the operations team, and my attention is fractured between these different hats.

I've done everything in my power to convince the CEO, and I've managed to get a budget that would be about 70% of what is market rate - but the CEO has put additional demands on that, like extra working hours, which would be a dealbreaker for most decent candidates. My CEO says I should hire someone and train them if I find the budget limiting.

How would you approach the CEO about this topic?

I have a 15% stake, with 4 year vesting. I do think my equity is on the lower- end of things. It started out at 5 and I negotiated it up to this number, so I don't think I have any more scope there.

<comment><USER2> I think your argument would be better if you don't just say "the product would be better with more people working on it", but also say how you plan to recruit them, what you need to do that, and how velocity would increase. If you can show that you have thought it out and you can manage the product side of things, it shows that you are serious about growing the product team, not just randomly throwing capricious (and costly) demands.

Regarding the possibility of quitting, I think it's better to warn the CEO early about that, than making a decision and suddenly tell him that you are leaving. If you were the CEO, how would you want your coder/product guy to behave? Then behave like that.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, I'll work on the points you've mentioned before talking to the CEO.

Should I tell the CEO that I _might_ be leaving when I'm not completely sure (maybe he agrees to the above and things can be worked out), or wait until I've made a decision to give them a notice?

<comment><USER3> I would say: Don't tell.

It will probably be felt as a threat (do what I want or I'll make you hurt), and no-one likes to be threatened.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> its time to renegotiate your role, or leave. think of it like refinancing a mortgage.

set up a meeting a present a roadmap forward that would make you happy. put yourself in the real co-founder role and get what you want. may include more equity, a plan to grow the team, different office layout, whatever u need. offer him this roadmap forward, or you will leave (1 month notice would be honorable).

if you leave you will find better opportunities and more pay, guaranteed. you have a proven track record and good attitude

<comment><AUTHOR> That sounds like a good idea. Couldn't the I will leave if you don't do this part sound like a threat and sour the relationship?

<comment><USER5> You could keep a certain timeline to see if things are transitioning. Important to have a conversation about product focus and what would it mean for the company. Write a few bullet points so the ceo knows serious Ness of this discussion. After your meeting you will know if you want to stick around. Try to convince ceo at least 3 times before you call it quits.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Find a mentor. Sometime with more experience often can give you insights that are valuable and helpful.

Or your thoughts will just keep running around in circles and you won't get any further.

<comment><AUTHOR> Any ideas on where I might be able to find a mentor?

<comment><USER6> PM me.</comment></comment></comment>


Hack your Pillow (5 Tech Solutions for a Cold Pillow) - <AUTHOR> http://www.thisistech.com/2008/04/17/who-doesnt-love-a-cold-pillow/

<comment><USER2> I'm not sure why, but we (people) generally sleep better in cool air and warm blankets. Having a cold pillow facilitates this.

Another good reason to turn down the thermostat and/or use a fan at night!

</comment><comment><USER3> Good problem, terrible solutions.</comment>


Discoverer of the Buckyball Offers Tips on Winning a Nobel Prize - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/2015/10/08/445339243/a-discoverer-of-the-buckyball-offers-tips-on-winning-a-nobel-prize <comment><USER2> Summary: Do things that at which you can excel while giving your best effort. If you can excel with a second rate effort, switch fields. If you cannot excel with your best effort, switch fields.

I love the "I play pretty good guitar but Eric Clapton made me look like I had honey stuck on my fingers" bit. Professionally, I am security consultant and do pretty well at, but my love is acting. I'm pretty good, but I can see and hear the difference between me and the Claptons, if you will, of the acting world. So I stay where the money is, in IS.</comment>