Org-mode 9.4 is out. Can you help? - <AUTHOR> https://bzg.fr/en/org-mode-9.4-is-out-can-you-help.html <comment><USER2> Just want to throw out there I switched to emacs about 3 months ago after being a long time vimmer, one of the first things I was told was to check out org-mode as it was one of the greatest features of emacs.

I heartily agree, after about a month I now do all my document authoring, PDF, LaTex, HTML, personal wiki notes, all of it goes in .org files. It was low barrier to productivity, and not much more effort to turn org mode into a powerful idea and through organizer as well as documentation.

Beyond that I can author in org mode and then export to tex, to pdf, to html, to markdown to whatever I want using org mode.

If you are a long time vimmer do yourself a favor make the next tech you learn be org-mode in doom-emacs. It is insanely powerful and I will never go back.

<comment><USER3> I made the mistake of trying to author a scientific paper in org-mode. Big mistake. I should have just stuck with LaTeX, because what ended up happening is that all my problems and difficulties had to do with me navigating org-mode wrappers around LaTeX, when I could just have dealt with LaTeX directly.

I'm sure there will be plenty of people to tell me that I'm wrong.

<comment><USER4> I've written a few hundred Org mode docs, and a doctoral thesis in LaTeX.

I would not write a complex technical paper in Org Mode, other than just to get my thoughts together initially to eventually copy/paste into LaTeX.

But, Org Mode is good enough for most of my writing over the last several years. It is more readable as plain text, and exports to HTML or PDF trivially (the latter via the LaTeX export hook). I like it enough that I use it as the basis of my blog, exporting each article to HTML and then massaging the HTML programmatically to generate static files styled and cross-linked the way I want. This approach gives me math formulas via MathJax, still images, tables, code snippets... basically everything I want for a somewhat tech-y blog.

But, yeah, if you're going to just write a full-on technical paper for publication, I'd go right to LaTeX.

<comment><USER5> I agree with this. I often write up notes in Org mode, but, after trying for a while to have all of my 'sources' in Org, I also came to the conclusion that for actual papers, it's far better just to write them directly in LaTeX (other than initial notes).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> It's not an exaggeration to say that org-mode changed my life. I started using it after my first year as a freelancer; I was really struggling to get myself organized and was prepping myself to get out of software entirely.

Switching to org-mode helped me keep on top of everything in a way I'd never really experienced before. Since then I've expanded my usage of org considerably - I use it for taking notes, tracking my diet+exercise, and planning out my projects (more info here: [https://www.philnewton.net/blog/emacs- org/](https://www.philnewton.net/blog/emacs-org/)).

It's not everybody's cup of tea, but for me it fits my mental models better than anything I've ever used.

<comment><USER7> Are you me? :) I use a very similar org table to calculate my nutrition, only with separate columns for macronutrients. I don't have an update function like yours, though.

      | -1 | req. | 100 | 100 |  50 |
      |  3 | milk | 2.92| 4.37|  3.5|
      |  # |      |-91.2|-86.8|-39.5|
      #+TBLFM: @>$3..$5=(@<$1..@>>$1)*(@<..@>>)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Org-mode is the reason I started using Emacs in the first place.

I'd be hard pressed to come up with a more important tool in my productivity/organization toolbelt, it's become a really important part of my notetaking process. It's not perfect by any means (exporting to other formats in particular is kind of messy), but it's an insanely powerful platform that does a ton of stuff, and is just really flexible without being too overwhelming. At the end of the day, everything is just text, so you can get in really deep with scheduling and capture templates, or you can just write out nice TODO lists.

Also check out Orgzly on Android if you're looking for a mobile client. Works pretty well with a Syncthing setup, or you can host your notes on a platform like Dropbox if you think that's easier.

<comment><USER7> For an Android client I just run it directly in a terminal emulator (Termux). Works well enough with the software keyboard (but a bluetooth keyboard brings real glory).

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> This was predictable. A software package shouldn't be in continous evolution. Org didn't really follow GNU philosophy. That's what commercial software like Microsoft Office does. They keep changing it without adding any value. Org should've been the opposite, future-proof, solid and robust.

I'm not sure what the situation with the tests accompanying Org is, but in order to build future-proof software, tests are mandatory, comprehensive documentation is also very important. There's another element which I haven't really seen with Org, a clear idea of when and where to stop. As previously mentioned, the development phase of software should always have an end, in sight. The cases where software is developed for 2+ decades is very rare. This is mainly related to requirements and to the goal of the software, and I think this is something that wasn't done for Org. It's unclear where Org ends.

It's interesting that Org could never have evolved out of some committee super-formal development environment (with tons of managers, SCRUM masters, architecture boards, etc), but at the same time it is an expertiment out of control. It's very dense and rich in ideas, but also in chaos (I guess we can't really have the former without the latter).

Still I think the parts that distinguish Org from all other dynamic document formats, and from all other markup formats is that.. it's the most advanced, it was there before asciidoc or reStructuredText. Org is a pioneer in many ways.

</comment><comment><USER10> It appears that the OP, @bzg, is Bastien Guerry, the current maintainer of org-mode — Bravo Zulu, Bastien! (By a happy coincidence, "Bravo Zulu" or just "BZ" is a U.S. Navy expression for "well done," defined in the publication ATP-1. [0].)

[0] [https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Bravo_Zulu](https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Bravo_Zulu)

<comment><USER11> Does bzflag have something to do with this term?

<comment><USER10> > _Does bzflag have something to do with this term?_

Not so far as I know.

<comment><USER12> BZflag, the tank game, is named after "Battle Zone", the original Atari tank game.

<comment><USER10> Ah - I have fond memories of that one, played on a machine that took quarters IIRC!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm a UI developer, never used Org-Mode, not a VIM or Emacs user. But I am very interested in document creation, note taking, organizing workflows. Please forgive the lack of background in this question but...

Can someone explain to me why if org-mode is so popular it is not used in places other than emacs or why is it bound to emacs? Is there some ux quality or set of features that are bound up in the unique key-bindings of Emacs or the scripting integration for example? Could any of this goodness make it's way to more accessible (for your average user) venues such as a basic GUI note taking app?

<comment><USER14> Org mode is great because it does 2 things extremely well:

1\. Document structure. Folding, tree structures, linking, etc. are done very well in org-mode. But that's not unique to org-mode, several other solutions do that well.

2\. org-mode lets you use all of the other Emacs major and minor modes in your document - restricted to sections. This is amazing, as it basically gives you an entire application layer in your text documents.

Where by entire layer, I mean having your calendar, email, programming environments, etc. all within your notes. org-mode used this way is not merely a document editor. It is the best plain-text workflow enabler the world has ever seen.

And you can't do this outside of Emacs without essentially rewriting Emacs. Emacs _is_ the strength that org-mode leverages. org-mode is a unification of the many and varied Emacs major modes into a simple plain-text environment.

And the best part is, you only need to use the particular modes you want. Your org-mode experience is tailored around your use case. You bring in the mode you want in that section and you're done. It just works.

<comment><USER15> > org-mode lets you use all of the other Emacs major and minor modes in your > document - restricted to sections.

> You bring in the mode you want in that section and you're done. It just > works.

I haven't used org in a non-superficial way for a while. What are you referring to here, src blocks?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I think it would be great if the development of Org has moved to Gitlab or GitHub, i.e. simplified the contribution process.

<comment><AUTHOR> Can you elaborate a bit more on how this would simplif the contribution process?

Perhaps it would make it more familiar, but I don't think it would really simplify it.

First because I think issue handling on GitLab/GitHub kinda worsen the problem of the lack of maintainance resources, instead of fixing it

Second because we are quite strict on how to format changelog entries, and I believe email interactions help educating contributors in a nice way, while MR/PR interactions might generate more fatigue -- not so sure about this one, though.

<comment><USER17> I can't speak for others, but I'm driven away from contributing to projects that use mailing lists because there's a high barrier to entry, and here's a source of other people having the same issue[1] to corroborate my anecdote a little.

[1]: [https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/25/linux_kernel_email/](https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/25/linux_kernel_email/)

<comment><USER18> I'm no defender of mailing lists as a substitute for real bugtrackers (I'm fairly strongly against it, actually), but GitHub is also apt to drive people away more than its fans admit.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24378401](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24378401)

There's also the matter of its privacy controls being extremely lacking. It's another site that takes the position that you don't get a choice on everything being "social" now, so they'll index your activity on a central timeline whether you ask for it or not and broadcast it to anyone else who does ask for it, leaving you with no recourse except to opt-out entirely.

<comment><USER17> I agree that Github is not the solution the open source community is looking for, and feel the pain of the lacking privacy controls. Still, I feel that development on Github is much more accessible than that on a mailing list, and there's probably a solution which would be more accessible but still encourage people who aren't part of the mailing list culture to contribute.

For example, mrsh has its development on sr.ht[1], but accepts pull requests on Github or the mailing list for the project[2]. This seems like (almost) the best of both worlds to me, where people who want to use a mailing list can, and people who want to use a GUI can, though there is overhead for the maintainers to fuse together the results at the end. An alternative like Gitea or GitLab might be better for your mentioned privacy concerns while still lowering the barrier to entry that a mailing list workflow presents.

Design is not my passion, so I'm drastically underqualified to comment on whether any of these websites is an effective implementation of their ideas.

[1]: [https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/mrsh](https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/mrsh)

[2]: [https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/mrsh#contributing](https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/mrsh#contributing)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I hope more project maintainers would call for help if it's needed. I am using org mode everyday, but I don't know org needs more contributors. That being said, I am definitely willing to help occasionally.

Thanks for bring the message out, bzg.

</comment><comment><USER20> I've recently started to get back into emacs and org, via doom emacs. Will see how it goes.

How are people handling getting org files on multiple devices, with sync support etc. Dropbox?

<comment><USER21> I'm using synchronization via Nextcloud. It's nice, because of webdav, but Dropbox is as nice as this, because Orgzly supports both of them

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> I just wanted to come here to say that I started learning emacs in the beginning of the pandemic. I'm going to start my first year of masters and I'm going full on emacs. Literally one of my big wants in life is to help free software.. I still have a lot of learning to do to get to a point where I can actually contribute, but I hope one day I can indeed help

<comment><AUTHOR> Where there is a will, there is a way. Don't hesitate to join Org's mailing list and lurk there for a while, you'll learn enough to contribute soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> org mode for vim would be great

<comment><USER24> Magit for vim would be great

<comment><USER25> I'm not a vimmer but I was under the impression that both of them were ported

<comment><USER26> I don't know about vimagit, but vim's org-mode support is very barebones.

Give doom-emacs a try though. You really can have the best of both worlds nowadays.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> The Emacs news the past few days has been disheartening.

I was genuinely considering learning org-mode and giving another go at using Emacs as my primary editor. Now I'm worried if it still makes sense to do that.

Clearly a lot of people still find Emacs useful but the ecosystem seems too hard to break into. I'm still curious why Emacs hasn't obtained the same level of excitement as other editors like Vim and VS Code.

<comment><USER28> What news did you see that was disheartening? The only story I was was that helm is being put to pasture, but that's very separate from Emacs itself.

I think Emacs has missed some of the excitement of, say, VSCode because until recently it hasn't had many opinionated guides to using it (like Spacemacs or Doom Emacs). I've overheard a lot of conversations like:

New user: OK, got it installed! Now what should I do?

Emacser: Anything you want!

New user: I want to write Python. What's a good way to do that?

Emacser: Here's 47 similarly named but substantially different Python modes. Choose the one you like!

New user: Which one do _you_ like?

Emacser: I started with one I found in a GitHub gist, then modified it to do remote editing over a 3270 terminal. You should check it out!

New user: ...

There's a _lot_ to be said for the VSCode approach of "here's the golden path to doing ${thing}. Once you've learned it, you might try the alternatives to see if some are a better fit for you." Alternatively, consider the analogy of a Linux distro that gives you a well configured KDE or Gnome environment, but that lets you switch to another DE once you've been using it for a while. Now Spacemacs and Doom Emacs are providing that experience to new users, and I've heard more excitement about Emacs in the last couple of years than in the previous decade.

<comment><USER29> I love emacs but lately I've been feeling this approach is very much at odds with today's expectation of per-project convention-flexibility within a dialect, a la prettier.

<comment><USER28> Truthfully, I feel kind of the same way. There are parts of my .emacs.d/init.el that go back 25 years, so I'm not saying this from the position of "I tried it last week and it wasn't like my other editors so I don't like it."

One of the things I love about VSCode, and that made me seriously evaluate it in the first place, is how easy it is to configure per-project settings like "use this virtualenv when editing these files". In VSCode, that looks like having one window per project and this works great. When I'm in the middle of working on one thing, I can quickly open a second window, hack on something, close that window, and get back to what I was doing. Since Emacs has one flat memory space, that's not nearly so easy.

I love Emacs and would go back to using it in a heartbeat if it were half so easy to set up and maintain a working Python development environment with all the bells and whistles, but so far I haven't found that to be the case.

<comment><USER30> Direnv and lsp-mode</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


FreeBSD TCP reassembly vulnerability - <AUTHOR> http://www.freebsd.org/security/advisories/FreeBSD-SA-14:08.tcp.asc

<comment><USER2> This is quite a big thing. Pity this didn't get more exposure on HN.</comment>


'Friends' can share your Facebook profile with the government, court rules - <AUTHOR> http://gigaom.com/2012/08/15/friends-can-share-your-facebook-profile-with-the-government-court-rules/ <comment><USER2> > Colon's legitimate expectation of privacy ended when he disseminated posts > to his "friends" because those "friends" were free to use the information > however they wanted-including sharing it with the Government.

Sounds reasonable to me. Where is the issue there?

</comment><comment><USER3> With friends like those, who needs COINTELPRO?

</comment><comment><USER4> That's why my profile pic is a EULA that forbids copying. Anyone who reshares my profile violates my license and owes me damages.

<comment><USER5> This sounds like snake oil. I'd love to read more about it--any sources for "profile picture as EULA"?</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How Google Knows That A Site is Forum? - <AUTHOR>

I want to create a forum for my community. (Actually, I own one). I have customized Wordpress CMS to act as forum. I had tried other options like phpBB & then choose Wordpress because of its simplicity and SEO.
But, Google has not indexed my site as a forum. I mean to say it is not appearing like a forum appears in search results. (You must have noticed special formatting for forums in SERP) – it appears as a website/blog.
I want to know that how google detects that a website is forum. I have already emulated the wordpress to look like a forum – like threads etc.
do I need to use some other trick??
Any help will b much appreciated!
1> the wordpress comment metadata section includes date & time -and also users' names.
2> I have already change "comment" to "reply"
3> Using Forum in the forum's title (OK blog's title) and the domain name.
4> removed generator tag from the head section. <comment><USER2> I can't say for sure what Google is using to parse results and identify them as a forum, but if you look at most forums, you'll find that the link structure looks like this:

[http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta- skymiles/1096718-variou...](http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta- skymiles/1096718-various-spoke-cities-double-mqm-up-50-000-bonus-miles-per- round-trip.html)

Popular forum software will usually put a meta generator tag as well. In this case it is <meta name="generator" content="vBulletin 3.7.6" />

And there is usually a clear hierarchy in the page and source for forum, threads, posts, and replies whereas a regular site might just have h1, h2, and p tags, and a blog might have blog, posts, comments, and replies.

There is likely no sure-fire way to get your site indexed a certain way, these steps are probably a good step. If you're looking for a solid forum platform with ease of use and good SEO, look at vBulletin (full disclosure, I work for vBulletin)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks. But, vBulletin is not free :( Any discount or coupon code?? lol ;)

<comment><USER2> Even I can't get discounts on our products!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Maybe they look at the metatags to find what software you are using. If you are using WP they probably will categorize it as a blog.

<comment><AUTHOR> I had already removed the generator meta tag from the head section. After waiting for next few months, I tweaked it again, and changed to phpBB.

:(</comment></comment>


Airbnb and security camera disclosure - <AUTHOR> http://jeffreybigham.com/blog/2019/who-is-watching-you-in-your-airbnb.html <comment><USER2> I've lived in Airbnbs full-time for about 18 months while traveling, and Airbnb has lost my trust repeatedly in terms of reliability, safety, and user- friendliness.

\- Host listing quality has gone consistently downhill. Now, it's many slumlords just trying to make a quick buck rather than support the original community idea or provide a great stay.

\- Airbnb support response times are horribly slow. They hide their phone number, then force you to go through a ticketing system for urgent issues. Then, they start assigning you a new "case manager" every few hours as their shifts change, which means the rep never is caught up on the issue. Sometimes, they forget to transfer you to a new rep before ending their shift, which could result in zero responses for days until the rep works again.

\- When there is a problem, Airbnb supports the host and makes little to no effort to relocate users. For example, when our unit flooded, among other problems, the feedback was basically "well we can book you into another available unit". The problem was that it was peak Summer in Barcelona, we were there for a long period of time, and the only available units were minimum 5x the price.

\- We had an Airbnb burglarized. Again, we waited hours for a response, as a police forensics unit was dusting the unit for fingerprints. We suspect that the host was complicit after realizing that previous tenants were also burglarized. Airbnb's insurance policy covered none of our losses ($10K+ in electronics, jewelry, watches, clothing, etc). We ended up feeling unsafe and canceling the reservation with 3 weeks remaining. As a "courtesy", Airbnb support credited our account for less than the cost of one night at a local replacement unit. Because we accepted the credit, they considered the matter "resolved" and did nothing else.

I've spent $30K+ on Airbnb. It started as a great alternative to hotels. Now, I can no longer recommend it, and I prefer a hotel.

<comment><USER3> It's almost as if AirBnB's hosts and guests are bearing the externalities that should be priced into the transaction on both sides...

For hosts, property damage, etc. is a matter of when, not if, and for those things you get insurance. But as far as I know that's not a standard thing for hosts. Pricing in hidden hosting costs would make hosting look less profitable up front, then AirBnB's market would shrink.

For guests, inconvenient cancellations, bad hosts, bad rentals, etc. AirBnB doesn't give you any real recourse like paying for you to stay elsewhere the way a hotel often does. That would be expensive and you'd have to either pass the cost onto the customers (raise fees/prices), or reduce your margins.

That's not counting societal externalities like permanent AirBnB setups in neighborhoods that are affecting community cohesion.

These days, I use AirBnB to save money by taking on some level of discomfort/risk. If I'm looking for a worry-free night with decent amenities where I want to minimize mental overhead, I just book a hotel.

<comment><USER4> I feel like what you described is the main reason for the profitability of most "sharing economy" services. Uber is also advertised as a little side gig you can do when your car is not being used while the real goal is to have a taxi service that isn't subject to the same legislation and unloads more cost on the driver.

<comment><USER5> Personally what I've come to realize over the years is that 'Use a startup while its young, get rid of it and get on the next startup once it grows beyond just being a simple pre-seed, 1st round startup'.

My reasoning comes from the amount of cash investors pour money into startups, and startups having insane amount of deals at the very start in order to attract costumers like uber had and airbnb to an extend. After the 1st or 2nd round is where a strong cfo either joins or the VC's involved want to capitalize on what they got so they are trying to squeeze things in and butcher the level of service something provided so they can either IPO or sell for big $.

What am saying is not always the rule but it does apply to a lot of things.

\- New currency exchange card coming out amazing rates etc, 3 years down drops down to whatever your bank was going to give you \- uber is a cheap taxi alternative you can use by abusing its own staff and investor money, cool 5 years down the line it becomes the same as any other taxi out there and still manages to abuse their staff \- airbnb has some nice quality for money accomodation cause they are taking care of the product? fine again few years down the line when it gets streamlined and is getting squeezed for its maximum value they drop their customer support standards etc.

So yes thats it for me, am not going to remain a loyal customer anymore, am going to use your startup and its initial investing deal you are giving me, and am going to jump ship to the 1st startup that is coming out to beat you. Sounds very egoistic, its not though, am just tired of getting treated like a sheep.

P.S not a startup but a company that I very much liked Blizzard is changing face and its getting squeezed out for money from Activision, I feel betrayed so am a bit biased on my views but as my father once said: 'I bought a miele washing machine 25 years ago and it still works like a charm. I bought a brand new Samsung washing machine as a 2nd and broke within 3 years and good luck with warranty, if companies are going to treat me like this from now on, then am going to treat them like that'.

<comment><USER6> You don't think that your behaviour (i.e. consciously not just enabling but promoting new & continued "abuse[s of] their staff" etc.) is in any way decent, right?

 _Of course I bought jewelry from the Nazis - it was cheap while it lasted!_

<comment><USER5> No.

Lets be clear about that, using uber is not the same as buying jewelry from war criminals. (hit a vein cause my grandpa was executed by them).

Everyone used uber and keeps using uber no matter what comes into light. Certainty not many of us knew beforehand what uber was doing, and once it was out I think uber tried to cover it quickly by increasing benefits and whatnot for the drivers. So no its not the same and am not enabling any dodgy business or anything, don't misjudge my comment, uber is a multi-billion $ company of course its dodgy as any multi-billion $ company out there.

<comment><USER7> I've never ridden in an Uber, and I will never.

So no, everyone doesn't.

Uber is built on squeezing safety and security from the drivers of cars for hire and somewhat from the customers. By using Uber you are complicit in this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I used to use AirBnB all the time. Lately I've switched back to using hotels almost exclusively. The camera/privacy thing is a big part of it. I empathize with the hosts to a degree - you don't want people doing outrageous things in your home. But the hosts want their cake and to eat it too. Don't rent out your home if you don't want the risk of people damaging it!

(As a minor aside, I've also noticed the quality of the places I've found on AirBnB has gone down. The homes I stayed at before I quit using it were not very clean (despite the fee!), things were broken, key retrieval was a pain etc. Hotels used to be much more expensive, but price/quality of experience is starting to get more competitive)

It's funny to me, because AirBnB runs in to all the same problems we had with hotels a hundred years ago. We have dozens of taxes, rules, regulations, building codes etc now for hotels. I imagine at some point it will be the same for AirBnBs. What's old is new.

<comment><USER9> Same here. A few years ago all our AirBnB experiences were good, but over time they have progressively got worse.

For example, one host housed us in what felt like a derelict hotel/doshouse with all sorts of weird people staying and no working locks or fire alarm. On another occasion we booked a cottage, but it had a blocked chimney and was spewing fumes and smoke in to the living area. And for our tenth wedding anniversary we booked another cottage where the host insisted on staying with us despite the listing saying we would have the property to ourselves. He also insisted on singing to us against our will, this was actually quite creepy.

We did of course raise concerns with AirBnB about the first two and left a negative review for the third. AirBnB did not care and crucially it did not seem to have an effect on the ratings of these properties. That just does not seem right.

I no longer trust AirBnB. I don't trust the listings, I don't trust the reviews and I certainly don't trust AirBnB itself to filter out bad hosts.

This could be because AirBnB has grown so fast and it has struggled to cope, or it could be a conscious business decision. Either way, we don't use them anymore.

<comment><USER10> I would have called Airbnb as soon as I found there was an issue and made them book me in somewhere else. You are paying a service fee to them for a reason.

<comment><USER11> They should have called the fire marshal. Airbnb support is probably one step up from Google's in terms of reaching a satisfactory solution for customers.

The fire marshal won't get you your money back, but they'll ruin a host's day if they're renting out a space without smoke detectors.

<comment><USER9> Oh we did, and the owner of the building ended up in the press for a multitude of reasons a few weeks after we had our stay.

<comment><USER11> Glad to hear it, you may have saved someone from having a pretty bad time with that.

Basically every line of fire codes were written in response to people burning to death, so I have very little tolerance for landlords messing around.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm renting houses/apartments on AirBNB and place cameras outside the homes (to watch who's in front of the entrance door, activity). Placing them inside the home is a real privacy concern - a zone that I would never even consider.

The reason for the cameras outside is to watch closely how many people enter as we're constantly fighting prostitution which leads to a pain with neighbors and other stuff.

<comment><USER13> We have two properties listed on Airbnb and have been a "superhost" for half a year.

Our listing has extra fees if there are more than 2 people booking and there have been a number of instances where guests would sneak in extra people.

We got a security camera for one of our listings recently. It's an attached suite with a private entrance. The camera is installed outside and it's disclosed with a check box toggled in Airbnb's listing settings.

Being a private person myself, I would not put a camera inside spaces meant private for guests. In these times, I'm even a bit wary on adding a CO alarm because guests might think it's a spy camera.

Obviously, not everyone has the same standards. The host described in the post is quite rude. I wouldn't communicate that way with a guest. Hopefully, Airbnb will reopen the case given the attention it has received.

<comment><USER14> Actually don't you want to highlight the disclosure of the camera to dissuade trouble makers from picking your place?

<comment><USER15> I don't think most people think it through that well. I once had a guest stay in our attached guest house where we live and try to sneak in a dog (explicitly not allowed).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Bullshit reason given by the AirBnB. How is someone renting a room qualified to determine from a photo what kind of a device is there in the corner, or even notice. It can be anything, perhaps just a motion detection sensor or air quality monitoring or whatever. Also I do not scrutinize every single photo for details, but I read the description in its entirety.

These things have to be stated in writing and they should have it as a part of listed attributes for the room/house.

<comment><USER17> There are also accessibility concerns/questions here. What if someone with poor (or no) eyesight is trying to book accommodation? Is there a screen- reader friendly description that says "Living room with security camera in the upper corner"?

<comment> basil-rash Great point. I'd be interested to see what their response to that argument would be if it came from him pretending to have the disability. (or not even pretending)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'll add my AirBnB anecdote.

We were in Hawaii. We checked into the AirBnB, and the first thing my wife noticed was that there were crumbs of food all along the walls of the kitchen. She murmured something about this not being good and attracting bugs.

We turn off the lights, and a few minutes later she jumped up, claiming there was something on her. We turned on the lights, and saw nothing. I brushed it off. A few minutes later it happened again. Same deal. Then a few minutes later it happened to _me_. I turned on the lights, and happened to look at the roof, and there were 2 large cockroaches on the roof, right above us! Yikes! Then I stepped out, and on the kitchen floor I saw a few of them scurrying about.

So I called up AirBnB at 2AM. They asked me for photos, video, etc. After a couple of hours of back and forth, they agreed to let us leave. They let us book another place. But then they proceeded to cancel our original reservation, so I could not leave feedback! The host contacted me, and when I told her why we left, pretended as if nothing was wrong about 3-inch long cockroaches running around all over the place. AirBnB never reprimanded her.

<comment><USER19> > pretended as if nothing was wrong about 3-inch long cockroaches running > around all over the place.

To be fair it actually is pretty common to see 3 inch cockroaches running around in Hawaii and other tropical places, even in reasonably nice/clean houses. Especially in older houses that might not be insulated or sealed very well (given the weather there's not much need to insulate for heat purposes).

Granted, keeping things clean and making an effort to get rid of bugs when you do see them will obviously make things better, and it sounds like this host was probably more neglectful than they should have been.

This is honestly a really interesting example though - a lot of people's stated reason for liking AirBnB is being in a more authentic, local environment. But then when you have different expectations about the conditions than a local person living in that house might have, it becomes a bad experience that AirBnB should solve. Where should the line be? If you want them to standardize things and make sure all listings are comfortable for the widest range of people possible, doesn't that just end up looking exactly like a hotel?

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> When I interviewed at Airbnb, they asked me about one thing I learned in the past that could be useful for Airbnb.

I suggested that people who are developing the product should once in a while spend a few hours handling user tickets themselves (perhaps shadowing an actual customer representative), so that developers get to sense (at the gut level) the pain points.

The interviewer did not seemed pleased with that suggestion.

<comment><USER21> dunno if they still do it, but this was normal practice at Etsy when I was an engineer there (2013-2015). Every so often (once a quarter maybe?) I had to spend a day answering support tickets. We discovered (and fixed) a lot of bugs that way.

<comment><USER22> As a lead developer on some projects, I've explicitly asked to jump into the weeds and handle support.

You can learn SO MUCH about your application just by handling a bit of support. You learn UX issues, you learn what tooling the support people are missing that would allow them to do their job (a simple "send a screenshot to support" button in our app saved our support reps HOURS spending time trying to get customers to describe the problem or teaching them how to take a screenshot on their device).

Not only that, but often the easiest wins are those where you make a happy customer even happier. I saw one customer one time that did this like 10 step process to get some information from the app. They would switch to one user, go to a specific page, open it in a new tab and leave it there, then logout and login to another account, go to their overview page, and then bring the 2 tabs side-by-side to compare numbers.

We already had support for "manager" style accounts that could view info on multiple people, but it didn't have the information they were looking for. A few hours later I had a POC up on our staging system with the information they needed right there, and that person I was talking to became almost an evangelist for our software at their company. Just knowing that they had a problem in the first place was key, and the fix took me a few hours, but it saved them probably that much per week.

<comment><USER23> I can't imagine a company _not_ mining the info from support for exactly these kind of improvements as a standard operating procedure; it's a gold mine of information, anyone ignoring it doesn't really care about the quality of their product.

<comment><USER24> One would think so. But here's the problem.

Support (even "in-house" support at global companies) is often outsourced to the lowest bidder. They are paid by support ticket and thus have zero interest in actually resolving the issue once and for all.

It's more profitable to open 20 tickets on the same issue than to actually resolve it.

Also, from the perspective of the call center you're a lousy support person if you actually want to _help_ customers. Your most important metric is calls per time unit. It's in your interest as the support agent to get the customer off the call as quick as possible.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> To add some background to the discussion: As a host, you are asked to check a box entitled "Surveillance or recording devices on property". If you check it, it asks you to "Describe any device that records or sends video, audio, or still images. Specify each device's location and whether it will be on or off."

As this is a text box, it is up to the host to accurately describe things like location of device, viewable area, on/off/recording status, and if there is a microphone. There is also no structured way to specify if the recording device is posted outside (ie a driveway, facing away from the property for security) vs inside the rented space.

Finally, they link hosts to their policy here, which specifies (among other things) that cameras that record guests are fine if disclosed, provided they aren't in bedrooms or bathrooms: [https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s- ru...](https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s-rules-about- electronic-surveillance-devices-in-listings)

</comment><comment><USER25> I never understood appeal of AirBnB. We used to travel a lot and thought AirBnB would be cheaper to equivalent hotels but it usually is about same or more expensive but with less amenities.

For example:

* There is no room service. You can order delivery but room service has certain charms especially at 2AM.

* In hotels, you come back to a clean room at the day's end.

* There is cleaning fee for many AirBnB. With hotels, you just leave a tip but no need to leave the place in perfect condition to avoid cleaning fee.

* If you have any issues with your room, hotel will relocate you to new room quickly.

* Concierge services, shuttle services, pools, etc are really nice to haves even if we don't use them.

* You are with other travellers in hotel. Very easy to meet new people and share some experience or tips.

Some of my friends get AirBnB in suburbs to save money but then they are renting cars or taking Uber everywhere which probably adds up to same price. Also when traveling I don't want to feel like I am back in 'burbs.

Then, of course, we have privacy issues.

<comment><USER26> That makes no sense to me. Airbnb has changed travelling for these reasons:

* It is cheaper for the location

* It has a kitchen

* It feels like a home

I don't understand these kind of comments. Can you remember any of the hotel room you've been in the previous years? I can't. Can you remember any of the airbnb you've stayed at? I remember every one of them. There is a true home feeling to them.

<comment><USER27> The kitchen always ends up being less useful than I imagine it will be because it's so unpredictable what basic ingredients will be there. Many are pretty bare-bones, and by the time I buy cooking spray or oil, salt & pepper, basic condiments, etc. I have spent more than I would have by going out to eat. They're great for longer stays, but for a long weekend trip I almost never do anything more complicated than breakfast cereal or a freezer pizza.

<comment><USER28> We usually stay in one place for 1+ week, and we usually eat out for lunch but eat breakfast and cook and eat dinner at home, except a few nights out. So the kitchen is essential for us!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> After a host made a suspicious/creepy comment about our stay, I started logging into host routers (creds usually printed on the device) and look at what other devices are connected. The camera may not be on that network, or not networked at all, but it's a little peace of mind.

<comment><USER30> There is an app called Fing on iPhones and maybe Android. It will scan the WiFi you are on and give you a bunch of information. There's also a few more network functions you can do. It recognizes phones, my plex server, and a brother printer at my house to name a few.

No router login required just the WiFi password.

<comment><USER31> And using Fing (works better on Android b/c on iOS it can't access raw MAC addresses) is perfectly legal. The fact that a default password is used or the password is posted on the router is not in any way legal permission to access it as a short-term guest. Look at Aaron Swartz's case if you don't know how readily prosecutors will (ab)use the CFAA.

<comment><USER32> Honestly who cares if it is illegal? What are they going to do? Literally nothing would ever happen. Using default creds on a home router really isn't going to get a prosecutors interest. They would probably laugh at you after you filed a complaint.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Ok, people suck. Not much we can do about that. For all you know, the host is archiving footage and could use it for whatever nefarious purposes later on.

What really isn't okay here is Airbnb's response. Indoor cameras should be explicitly against their policies and finding one in an apartment should immediately terminate _all_ the listings by that host.

This is where some regulation actually makes sense, and it might not be a bad idea for Airbnbs to be treated as hotels -- especially all the properties that are exclusively used for this purpose. There's tons of those in bigger cities and they're pretty obvious since the "host" will have dozens of apartments available.

I will never use Airbnb again until they implement this policy, and I encourage everyone here to vocalize the same.

<comment><USER34> They'd end up having to remove like most of the listings in Orlando then. It's pretty difficult to find a nice house that doesn't have cameras. I've opted to just stay in apartment hotel suites instead - ends up being way cheaper anyways.

<comment><USER35> A house that doesn't have cameras INSIDE to monitor what the guests are doing?!

<comment><USER36> Sadly very common. Esp in areas where the lister is worried about parties.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Here is my unpleasant story from 2 weeks ago when I was in Bali.

I had booked an apartment but the host was not replying to any of my messages/sms/calls. Fearing something was fishy I opened an Airbnb support ticket 3 days before my the checkin date. In those 3 days Airbnb support did _not_ reply to me at all. It was a shitty feeling, I wanted to book another place but I had already paid for this one.

1 day before checkin, the host replied with a short message that I could checkin next day, he didn't address any of my questions nor any of my follow- up messages. Next day I go to the specified address of the villa and call the host, the host picks up this time but tells me that the address on Airbnb is wrong and sends me to another location. I go to the second location, the building does not look anything like the one in the photos, there is nobody there and I cannot get inside, the neighbour shouts that the building is empty because the lease contract has expired a month ago. it starts raining and I am standing there on the street with all my baggage and it starts to rain. I call the host, now really angry and he starts apologising that he is not even the landlord but just a guy from another country (India) and he does not know much about the booked property then he stops responding.

At this point I submit to the reality that this listing is some sort of scam and start looking for ways to contact Airbnb over phone to get urgent help since I have nowhere to go.

The Airbnb website is useless, cannot find any phone numbers to call. Finally I google and read on some forum, that there is no phone number for Airbnb in Indonesia and that I need to make a call to a US number. I make the call and they are very helpful. They tell me they will try to contact the host in the next 30 minutes and that I should look for other suitable listings. After 30 minutes they contact me again and they agree to cancel my previous booking so that I can book something else. I end up booking something which was is in the same price range but much lower standard (not much choice when doing same-day booking).

I talked to Airbnb support for 7 minutes in total and that cost me 28 EUR. Airbnb later agreed to refund me the 28 EUR for the phone calls.

After this experiece I am more keen on using booking.com again, have not had any such bad experience with them yet.

<comment><USER38> How many reviews did the place you booked have?

<comment><USER37> 2

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Should have replied "Yes, I disconnected it so you wouldn't record our naked 2 year old.". Any discussion after that point surely becomes pointless.

<comment><USER40> This was my first thought as well. If you're an Airbnb host and capture video of a minor without clothes on, you could be in a world of legal trouble.

<comment><USER41> This is a pretty big oversimplification of the law. If you're not hiding the presence of cameras, they're not capturing private areas or those entrances directly, and you're not doing anything with that footage after the fact, it's unlikely to ever be an issue.

There was an /r/legaladvice thread a few weeks ago where someone's security camera recorded a cleaning lady's 16 year old daughter changing, which certainly has the potential to be more lascivious than a 2 year old post-bath time, and the consensus was pretty unanimously that the homeowner had nothing to worry about provided they weren't archiving or keeping that footage.

<comment><USER40> To be fair, I did qualify my statement with a "could". IANAL.

This likely depends on where it happens as well, and how aggressive the legal system is there. I know that I've heard of cases where a high school official was attempting to handle a situation where a student was distributing nude pictures of another student via their phone, and because the teacher forwarded the message to themselves so that they could show law enforcement, the teacher ended up being charged with possession of child porn.

I guess all I'm saying is that I wouldn't want to be in a position where I could inadvertently capture something like that. Maybe 90% of the time you're fine as long as you handle it properly, but we've all seen situations where someone ends up in a bad situation despite having no ill intentions.

<comment><USER41> Absolutely, the most common refrain on LA when anything related to this is involved on someone's device is always some version of "don't delete it, don't open it, don't touch the device, get a lawyer yesterday and have them talk to law enforcement."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> My wife and I have done a lot of traveling over the last 5 years and usually stayed at an AirBnB. We used to have nothing but good experiences but the quality has become so inconsistent that we switched back to hotels. AirBnb is now no longer cheaper than a mid-budget hotel, and if anything goes wrong at a hotel, you can dial the front desk and get the problem resolved immediately. Plus check-in is easy and comfortable and you can often get other perks like breakfast or a gym.

The last straw was a bug infested cottage in Key West. The owner wasn't responsive for hours, and finally "dealt" with the issue by giving us a vacuum and telling us that's what he uses to get rid of them.

</comment><comment><USER43> Reading this made me pissed off _for_ you. AirBnb should have clear prohibitions on cameras in living quarters, regardless of disclosure. This host behavior is wayyy out of line.

</comment><comment><USER44> I had been having great experiences until I got this place in NYC that when I just got in, the host started sending me messages on I could and couldn't do.

He told me to get rid of the shoes because I was hurting the floor, that I shouldn't leave heavy stuff on the sofa because it was brand new (my bag was on it). For a moment I thought that maybe he told this to everyone and then I found the camera. It was a 1 bedroom so the camera gave him a full view of the whole apartment. I covered the camera and decided not to communicate Airbnb because it was only for a week and I would be barely in the apartment during the day (it's NYC!). He gave me a great review but I decided to go back to hotels ever since.

<comment><USER45> Now this is just fucked up :p

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> Given that the entire Airbnb model involves the host, guest, and the company splitting the profit that comes from pushing externalities onto everyone else it's hard to have sympathy for any of them. No honor among thieves and all that.

<comment><USER47> The profit doesn't come solely from pushing away externalities. It also profits by tapping into more transient supply of accommodation by home-owners. That is, people who happen to own a home but aren't living there at the moment, or who are willing to share the space.

This doesn't apply to people who buy houses with the intent to airbnb them, they are purely about avoiding hotel regulations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Regardless of the AirB&B fine print, I think this would likely run afoul to local and state laws against unauthorized wiretapping. I would be interested in seeing it play out in court, because that's a pretty serious crime in some states. I doubt the owner of this unit is fully aware of their liability.

<comment><USER49> It makes me worried how few people noted this, how quick they are to rely on corporations instead of the law to punish bad behavior.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> I've used Airbnbs in the past and some were great but now I'd only use one if no hotel is available. Recently I traveled to Thailand in the peak season and no hotel had the full block of dates available that I was looking at. Stayed at an Airbnb served by some Russian dude. We reach there and he wants a 3000 Baht "deposit", says it is standard. Couldn't argue with it, he agreed to take a USD100 bill instead. Instead of a receipt he took a photo of me standing with the USD100 bill and sent it to me :). Returned it back without a fuss but it was an odd experience.

</comment><comment><USER35> The fact that AirBnB even allows recording inside of the rented appartments is utterly mind-boggling to me. I always assumed they'd ban recording or guests outright. Your home (even a temporarily rented one) is pretty much the primary place where you should expect complete privacy at all times.

<comment><USER15> Agreed. Even if I choose to have recording devices in my home, and then rent out on a temporary basis, it would be trivial for me to take them down before renting it out. Plus, I have the financial incentive to do so.

Allowing hosts to have cameras inside the rented space, regardless of recording state, seems like a bad policy indeed.

The only "legitimate" reason a host would want active cameras in the home is for protection against bad guests. This belies AirBnB's supposed "host guarantee" which should prevent this concern in the first place.

<comment><USER51> It doesn't make sense. This is begging to blow up. I predict it does and AirBnB bans in-home cameras with a threat of removal if found in violation.

People would never put up with this in hotels. Terrible policy by AirBnB.

Not the kind of news you want swarming around your profitability announcement. I can tell you which one local news is going to broadcast.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> I actually prefer the hotels to Airbnbs. If price difference is not drastic - hotel. If employer pays - most definitely the hotel! I prefer to have maybe cookie-cutter but more or less reliable set of things and services available and not figure out what to find where, what to do, what not to do, read the goddamn house rules, look for the key under the rug, text some random people where are they with the key, do you have parking, do you not, etc.

</comment><comment><USER53> It looks like Airbnb has a requirement that hosts "disclose all surveillance devices in their listings": [https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are- airbnb-s-ru...](https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s- rules-about-electronic-surveillance-devices-in-listings) How could they possibly say that the vague appearance of a camera in a photo satisfies the language of this policy?

</comment><comment><USER54> I think the cracks in "break the rules" startups such as Uber, Airbnb, Tesla, etc. are starting to show. However, I think these companies have surfaced some interesting product ideas with accompanying demand. More established players might be able to adjust the business model a bit and make things more sustainable.

Ultimately we may not be staying at Airbnbs and driving Teslas, but maybe we'll be staying at some sort of Marriott "Experiences" boutique and driving electric cars from GM.

</comment><comment><USER55> Market solution: Airbnb just adds a search feature:

[ ] Only show properties without security cameras

<comment><USER26> No, why would any host have security cameras in the living quarters? This is a huge privacy issue.

<comment><USER55> Agreed, it was kind of a "reductio ad absurdum" feature. No one would knowingly choose it, therefore, allowing cameras is absurd.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Cameras is Airbnb seem to be more and more common.

I know people who would suddenly get messages from their hosts like "why did you let somebody not registered in".

It's creepy since the hosts did not disclose that there are cameras.

</comment><comment><USER57> That is kind of creepy indeed. In my country you are allowed to video tape inside your own home and I assume that right extends even if you rent it out temporarily.

I guess far from every host does this, I would even say it's probably very rare. But maybe there is a reason to stay in a hotel after all ;)

<comment><USER58> In general privacy law seem to work under the "expectation of privacy", which is why you see signs warning of security cameras or monitors showing what they see.

In a rented room scenario, you obviously have an expectation of privacy up until someone tells you explicitly that there are cameras in the space, at which point I guess you can decide whether or not you want to stay there.

So in this case (and depending on local laws, obviously) it seems like the renter would have to convince a judge that the photo of the room with a white blob in the corner was enough notice to circumvent that expectation of privacy.

<comment><USER59> I recently stayed in an AirBnB in Hamburg/Germany. Not only did he write that it's not a hostel everywhere. He used his smart home to keep the temperature below the legal limit and had all internals checked setup with cameras without any information. From the way he talked he also checked whether you exited the shower(not literally the shower, but the bathroom).

He also had Bottles of sausages and would check through the camera who used them without paying. He also charged 50 cents for those coffee pads and used the camera to check on it.

When I asked him to turn on the heater he lied to AirBnB on the phone(which they recorded) and then assaulted me and kicked me out.

His one listing was removed temporarily but his other listings are still there. So yeah, even a hostel would have been better.

Edit: the response from AirBnB was way better than the response from German authorities, but that may have been because they heard everything on the phone.

<comment><USER60> I seriously hope you reported this to the authorities and not just AirBnB?

<comment><USER59> It's Germany, and I have dark hair. When I went to file a police report the tall blonde police officer, he and his colleagues were mocking me in the back.

I ended up telling them off and will report it to the tax office. Which, while nasty seems to be only thing that will get that guy into trouble, Police at least doesn't care even though he violates a dozen laws including standard German privacy practice.

<comment><USER61> I am calling bullshit.

There is very little chance that German police in Hamburg would not consider those alligations serious. Lots of Germans have black hair. Few Germans are tall and blonde. German police will file your case in any case.

<comment><USER62> While an anecdote doesn't prove much, a distant relative of mine with a more Mediterranean appearance was detained by police in Munchen on allegations that the bicycle he was riding was stolen as he allegedly fit the description of a bike thief. After proving them wrong they mocked him saying something like 'how did someone like you managed to land such a high paying job? Do your colleagues like working with you? I mean you know.. considering... etc.. etc..'. I don't know what happened with his complaints post-factum but it's not the first time I hear about racist/xenophobe behavior by law enforcement in Germany.

<comment><USER63> What happens if you insinuate that they're going to join the Nazi party next?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> My biggest gripe is that the cleanliness has gone way down.

It used to be, a few years back, AirBnB would make sure everything was immaculate. I remember a host letting me in to her house and being embarrassed that there were garbage bins out front since it was garbage day. Everything was laundered, sheets were bleached and crisp, everything was on-par with a 5-star hotel.

For whatever reason, now when I stay in AirBnBs it's next to impossible to find a place that has that level of detail. Supply and demand, I guess. More people doing it, pressure to lower price, less money for cleaning, less money for quality linens. Sure... I get it. But it's turned me off AirBnB.

The last place I stayed in had dirty towels. Like they didn't even bother to put clean towels up, they were damp when we showed up and had someone's makeup on them. Was gross. I wrote in to complain, and used the dirty towel to wipe the floor and counter to show that those weren't clean either. The towels were sort of grey, and came off the floor just black.

And you know what I got? Billed for damaging a towel, they said that because I used their towel to wipe off their floor that it stained the towel. Likely wasn't good for the towel, but come on... the place was filthy. AirBnB needs a "white glove" service -- and I'd be willing to pay extra for this -- to ensure that everything is on-par with a nice hotel.

<comment><USER65> > AirBnB needs a "white glove" service -- and I'd be willing to pay extra for > this -- to ensure that everything is on-par with a nice hotel.

Getting a set of clean towels isn't what I would consider "white glove" service. It seems more like "basic level of service".

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> Never had a similar experience with Airbnb. But I switched back to Hotels and I found it way more comfortable and easier. Just good reviews and reasonable prices. Hotels are in good competition these days and you don't hear these scary stories about them.

</comment><comment><USER67> I recently tried to book over AirBnB just for the convenience of it. They requested government id _and_ a new photo of me for verification. They also (indirectly and insidiously) asked for my permissions so sell all my personal data listed in the ID (biometrics, height, skin colour, ID number etc). Of course you'd have to read the privacy policy to know this, and many people don't. Also their facebook login asked for a list of all my friends as well as all my likes. What the hell does that have anything to do with them?

I just booked off their platform. It was easier and cheaper, and definitely more private. I also wouldn't recommend anyone to get vendor-locked so hard as to have their livelihood depended on this company's policies.

</comment><comment><USER68> I have used around 20 airbnbs and had no problems, some are better than others, I have also used hotels and hostels, with problems, like bedbugs, noise etc... For a cheapest and more local experience AirBnB is awesome, just find a good place with good reviews

</comment><comment><USER69> > I looked at the home guide again, and it did say that there were cameras "at > the entrance," which these cameras clearly were not. I contacted AirBnB > about it, and long story short they said the single photo above was proper > disclosure of both cameras.

> A lot of other weird stuff happened during this trip stemming from this -- > AirBnB told my host we asked about the cameras, he sent someone to snoop on > us, he left us a bad review, etc. My favorite has to be when my host > discovered that I had unplugged the cameras, he wrote:

This is why I prefer established hotels and Yelp. It's much easier to deal with professional management instead of someone trying to make a quick buck on the side.

</comment><comment><USER70> I still love Airbnb, but I have the same feeling that I've always had about it and Uber and Lyft and every other sharing economy disruptor - the existing industries had evolved the way they had for reasons, and the associated regulatory structures around them also evolved for reasons. After you have enough thefts and rapes and murders and property destructions over enough years, Airbnb will necessarily look a _lot_ like a hotel chain, and Uber will look a _lot_ like a traditional taxi company, and so on and so on.

</comment><comment><USER71> There are two reasons I've decided to not use Airbnb again - specially when I'm overseas.

1) fear of getting locked out of Airbnb. I stayed in an Airbnb in Dublin in late 2017, place was OK, not too great -cheap ikea bed, cheap ikea couch, heater that was either tundra or Sahara. However getting in to this place required memorizing 8 digit number or having your phone on you. After that stay I genuinely appreciated 24hr staffed front desk where you can get a new key pretty much instantly.

2) a safe for your valuables (passport) and daily house keeping.

<comment><USER72> Why not just write the number on a piece of paper?!

<comment><USER62> because if you get mugged abroad and that piece of paper goes away along with your wallet, you are shit out of luck. A hotel can give you a lot of support in situations when you're stranded abroad. On top of granting you access to the room, they can call people on your behalf, provide a wellfare check in case you've gone missing, etc..

<comment><USER71> Exactly this, I do try to keep note in my wallet but mistakes happen, wallets/phones get lost/stolen. I like the safety net of having a hotel frontdesk staff that can help out in the worst case scenario. From a personal experience - I got really sick during a trip abroad and frontdesk staff sent someone to a pharmacy to pick-up medicines for me and they were willing to call doctors if needed.

<comment><USER62> I once got the serious runs in a hotel in India. The hotel staff brought in a doctor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> When you read about the litany of issues that guests have, as evidenced here in these comments, does anyone have better experience with competitors like HomeAway?

If not it's a gap in the market. For example, for delivery services in the States you have Seamless, which is like an AirBNB or Uber for restaurants for delivery (I think only recently Seamless offers delivery people, but before it was the restaurants that have to provide). But there's now Caviar, which a) provides excellent customer-first customer service b) curates the restaurants carefully c) provides their own drivers with meticulous tracking and of course, the kicker d) costs more.

I would pay for better customer service and proper curation. Yes, even if it costs the same or MORE than a hotel, I prefer to stay in an apartment when I travel. I've definitely had a few surprises in AirBNB, but I've had a lot of delightful stays too with top-notch customer service provided by the host. But it's a crapshoot! I'll pay more for it not to be a crapshoot. The ratings system is a joke in my experience. Fine, take away the ratings and let me pay you more, future Silicon Valley company, for your people to verify the apartment meets standards and to be available on the phone 24/7 with onshore staff. I'll pay.

</comment><comment><USER74> Why would anyone believe that an Airbnb offers the same security, privacy protections, safety, and comfort of a hotel? I have only stayed in an Airbnb a few times ever because I can never justify staying in one over a hotel for these reasons. The product is so unpredictable in the sense that you really never know what you're going to get until you get there.

From the host perspective, I am still amazed that Airbnb has normalized letting complete strangers into your home.

</comment><comment><USER75> Just to add another +1 on the poor AirBnb customer support...

I rented out my place on AirBnb for 3 weeks and it took nearly a month before I received my payment from AirBnb. I filed a support ticket with AirBnb and the support person was extremely slow in responding, sometimes taking 2-3 days for a response. I had to tweet at AirBnb publicly and post on their public FB page to get responses. I looked up the AirBnb customer support rep on LinkedIn and looked like AirBnb has a good amount of their customer support staff abroad in Asia. Their support team told me it was an issue on their end but wouldn't go into details. It was obviously an issue when i went to the billing section on AirBnb and saw 500 errors when using Chrome's debugger to see the traffic. I was close to just tweeting at AirBnb Engineering to offer some help to fix their bug when I hadn't been paid thousands of dollars for putting my home on AirBnb for a month. It finally got resolved and I got a couple hundred dollars in AirBnb credit for my troubles.

</comment><comment><USER76> Many of the complaints of mistreatment illustrate a feature of this housing marketplace: big capital assets are in control, not the demand.

This runs counter to many other marketplaces millennials (+- 10 years) are used to. Shoes? Chocolate? Restaurants? Types of alcohol? Transportation? Whatever the customer wants, the customer gets.

It's a simple reality that Airbnb will align with the host who brings in $10-30k/yr over even the frequent traveler who spends $1-10k.

I'm super interested in understanding how this might bite Airbnb or open opportunities for competitors. I'm very curious about these huge economic, behavioral shifts and what they mean for the quality of a product/service and how these services align with humanity's best interests.

<comment><USER51> Reasonably, AirBnB has already served its purpose. It has bludgeoned the hospitality industry forcing it to be more competitive. [1]

There is real opportunity for hotels to earn back customers and they should get this chance.

Due to hotel architecture they do not have the same problems as one-off airbnb units in neighborhoods. So they should reasonably consider offering greater privacy and reliability.

That said, the Marriott hack did not do them any favors.

[1] [https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2018/02/27/...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2018/02/27/the- airbnb-effect-cheaper-rooms-for-travelers-less-revenue-for- hotels/#35db2e9ad672)

<comment><USER77> Hotels can't operate at the slim margin that would allow them to compete with airbnn, otherwise, they would already have.

Vast majority of customers choose on price, and hotels offering privacy just doesn't seem like it'd be a selling point, esp. if the feature is assumed default already.

<comment><USER51> Enough more stories like this and the anecdotal testimony ITT becoming mainstream opinion might suggest otherwise.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER78> Maybe airbnb renters should be required to post clearly labeled snapshots of what each camera sees in their listings... a bit like this: [https://i.imgur.com/Fg9R0D6.png](https://i.imgur.com/Fg9R0D6.png)

<comment><USER26> they should be forbidden to have cameras inside the house, period.

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> Who would have thought that an unregulated industry would be so hostile to customers?!

</comment><comment><USER32> I've had varying Airbnb experience but always positive. A couple were just cheapo rooms to lay my head. The best was on a private vineyard, the house rules said no one in the hot tub after ten. We asked if it could be 11-11:30 and we will be respectful of noise. "Sure no problem". The hosts cooked us breakfast and we chatted over coffee. They were the perfect balance of leaving us alone and engaging. Even gave us a really cool tour of the property before we left. They had no complaints about us, we wrote a glowing review. A couple weeks later we got a small gift in the mail.

</comment><comment><USER80> I just had an absolutely horrible experience with Airbnb & Airbnb 'support.' So bad in fact I'm exploring my options to go to arbitration though that's mostly an emotional reaction since I'm fairly sure it would be a waste of time.

I've gone from spending months a year in AirBnbs to now planning to never use the service ever again.

Airbnb used to be almost magical but the last three bookings I had have been progressively more horrendous and support is maddening. I'd be happy to share my recent experiences but I don't have any social clout to attempt to get anything out of it :(

</comment><comment><USER15> When you stay at a hotel, you are definitely being recorded in hallways and most public areas. AirBNB should modify their policy to allow hosts to have recording devices outside their home (public spaces), but blanket ban any recording devices inside (off or on). Significant fines/banning would result from discovery. This policy would not deter legitimate hosts, while significantly reducing the likelihood of a PR disaster involving serendipitous recording.

This "as long as it is disclosed" policy invites grey areas like described in this post.

</comment><comment><USER81> I just looked this up so I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell there are no regulations at the federal level or the state level that prevent hotels from having cameras in the room. There are 12 states with laws that prevent you from recording someone without their knowledge, which would apply to both hotels and AirBnBs, and anyone else.

So really, the only reason hotels are "safer" in this regard is because they seem to be more concerned with protecting their reputation.

</comment><comment><USER82> "What was I trying to hide on New Year's Eve..."

Something like this, presumably:

[https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/jan/07/airbnb-new- ye...](https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/jan/07/airbnb-new-years-eve- disaster-stories-around-the-world)

It's not an excuse for the owner being an ass, or the inappropriate camera placement and lack of proper disclosure, though.

<comment><USER83> What is appropriate camera placement in an AirBnB property? I wouldn't accept it anywhere in a hotel suite, so nowhere in an AirBnB property either.

Step 1 to adapt my own apartment to be possible to AirBnB would be to remove any cameras.

<comment><USER77> Don't most hotels have cameras in the hallway? How is that different from having camera out in the property?

<comment><USER83> Likely yes. I'd say that's the same as having a camera outside the front door (the hotel room being the equivalent of the whole apartment/house, not the equivalent of a bedroom of course)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER83> AirBnB should launch a surveillance/alarm product that is a combined alarm and camera, which allows the host to look at camera images when the property property is empty ONLY (i.e. when the guest has left the property and armed the alarm)

It would need to have e.g. a mechanically closed lens that opens when the alarm is armed in the home (so no one is home).

This product could also include other helpful things for AirBnB like a smart lock etc.

<comment><USER84> Why would anyone want a security camera that only worked when a property was empty? Wouldn't that defeat the point of having a security camera?

<comment><USER83> The camera is on when the property is _supposed_ to be empty, that is, when the alarm is armed and the guest is not there. The camera is for monitoring the _property_ with a guarantee that the _guests_ are not monitored. This is similar to how a hotel works. I expect the hotel management to be able to go in to my hotel room when I'm not there (to repair something, clean etc.) but I also expect complete privacy when I'm in there.

I have cameras in my house that are used together with motion detectors as part of my home alarm system. If the alarm goes off I can see whether the alarm was triggered by my christmas tree falling over or by a burglar. They aren't used when the alarm isn't on. If I were to rent my house out on airbnb I'd probably cover or disconnect the cameras, becauuse I couldn't make a guest trust that they are only part of the alarm system. That's why a product that guaranteed it would be good.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER85> I'm astounded by the number of people here insinuating that the hotel industry is any better. I realize I've probably been lucky with my AirBnb visits and unlucky with my hotel visits, but still...

Several times I've ran into hotels which advertise AC, but when you get there you realize it's impossible to get acceptable room temperature. When you contact the front desk, they simply tell you that during [this time of year] the entire AC system of the hotel has been set to [heat/cool] and we can not set an individual room to [cool/heat] even if it is 27C inside the room.

One time there was a sewage smell coming from the bathroom strong enough to be sensed in the bedroom. The front desk again did nothing to alleviate the problem, going as far as lying that they are unable to move us to another room because all the rooms are booked (despite us seeing very few guests in the hallways, indicating the hotel was mostly empty at the time).

Another time the hotel staff badgered us for extra money throughout our stay despite that the hole stay was paid for in advance. They claimed that we had "erroneously" been given too low of a rate ($200/night for a small room in Milan) because we had used a "bad agent" (a booking site they apparently disliked, yet chose to work with anyway). They had knowledge of our booking for a long time, and instead of contacting us before our trip, they badger us for additional payments after we arrive?

These are not really isolated incidents. The majority of the time I visit a hotel, something is wrong to the extent that I never want to visit that particular hotel again. In contrast 100% of my AirBnb experiences have been good so far.

</comment><comment><USER86> This is a tough one. There are some seriously nuts and creepy people out there. If you use Airbnb with your teenage kids and somebody has hidden a camera somewhere for their own personal pleasure what can Airbnb do? Inspect every property that they list?

At least with a hotel the owners usually care about their business and reputation.

<comment><USER87> At some point if they don't start inspecting every property they list, then a competitor will come out with a selling point on inspections and trustworthiness.

<comment><USER88> Then the creepy owners will just add a camera after the inspection happens.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER89> I'm about to embark on a nomadic trip so I will be depending on AirBnBs and hotels a lot. Can I just ask: If the host has not disclosed security/surveillance but such equipment is present am I allowed to run de- auth attacks against the cameras so I can 'disable' them temporarily?

<comment><USER90> Let the owner know via AirBnB that they need to disclose it. Then just put a piece of tape over it. Why make it more complicated than need be...

<comment><USER89> You have a point :D. But I would expect AirBnB owners to lie about it and me being unable to find it when it's hidden in a plant or something. I was mostly curious about any legal ramifications that would come up if I decided to take my privacy in my own hands.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER91> This is becoming a bigger problem lately, it is now part of my routine to de- bug Airbnbs, first by unplugging all visible cameras, then by scanning the network for other equipment, but maybe we also need to shut off the lights and look for IR noise to find hidden non-network cameras.

<comment><USER77> It'd be interesting to see if you can purchase a wide angle, high-powered IR beam and just shutdown all cameras by overloading them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> It's a pretty big opening for the hotel industry to be able to fight back against AirBNB by saying "stay at a hotel, it's safe, you won't be robbed, given a bad review, or spied on by hidden cameras".

</comment><comment><USER93> I'm reading this thread comment by comment and it just reminds me of the PayPal stories right before Stripe entered the industry. It seems that the market is ready for a new competitor.

</comment><comment><USER94> If you only stay in Airbnb "bed and breakfasts" you'll likely have none of the issues described in these comments. Plus, I like to meet my host and have them make me breakfast.

</comment><comment><USER95> I guess part of the check-in procedure is now to scan the local network and set up IR blinders in private spaces. Sheesh.

<comment><USER96> I hear LiDARs are good at damaging cameras...

<comment><USER97> While I totally get your reference and tounge-in-cheek nature, you'd be responsible for damages. Besides super bright UV LED device would be much cheaper and easier to carry with you.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER98> Yeah, we had some weird experiences at an Air B and B which seemed to be part of an ongoing attack that we were experiencing at the time. You can read about all that here if you are so inclined:[https://www.scribd.com/document/389212460/Antisemitism-in- We...](https://www.scribd.com/document/389212460/Antisemitism-in-Western- Kentucky)

</comment><comment><USER99> Airbnb is nobody's friend except the CEO and stockholders. Have a problem, tough. File a lawsuit, now we're communicating. This is how Capitalism works.

<comment><USER43> I feel like we need some sort of hub for consumers to get together and share cost of initiating legal action. When you're solo, you are indeed powerless in this system.

<comment><USER77> That's class action lawsuits. It should be easier for consumers to make them.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER100> Every AirBnB I've been at in the last two years has had internal cameras...

</comment><comment><USER101> Any implementation of sharing living quarters with other people has too many problems. People nowadays don't understand what it means to be clean. Back wen cleanliness was up to you and of great practical importance, people were aware of beg bugs, Scabies, fleas, dust mites and the such like. Bed bugs are _disgusting_ and when you stay in a hotel of any kind you risk picking them up. Their eggs stick to you, your luggage, everything and you trail them everywhere you go, including your own house. I just don't understand why people want to sleep in bug infested cum stained shit hole shared rooms. I sleep in my car instead and while it's not as nice as a room, it's a lot better than sharing.

<comment><USER36> Over worried a bit much, no? A large majority of people staying in any given shared living place do not get bed bugs. Plus staying in your car doesn't really fly when you have a family or take an airplane and have no car.

<comment><USER101> Yeah. I still massively prefer carrying my own space with me if possible. But actually I think hotels could be an option even for people like me. If rooms were properly constructed then they wouldn't be able to harbor any parasites at all and it would be possible to clean them _thouroughly_ and properly between guests. If I were to start a hotel, I would make public the methods of cleaning and then offer some kind of verification for each guest. Like the receipt checklist you get on a ups, your room would come with some kind of receipt of cleaning. Mattresses would be sealed in plastic. All cloth goods like sheets and curtains would be autoclaved and come with proof of having been so. I honestly think hotels focus way too much on making rooms look homey and warm. Give me a small barren room that's 100 percent guaranteed to be clean.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER102> Is this really a camera? It looks like an infrared motion detector from the (low resolution) photo. It has an opaque bit of white plastic in the front, which makes for a terrible camera protector, but is what PIR motion detectors use.

</comment><comment><USER103> This blog post is not true and not fair. Airbnb specifies that there must be textual disclosure of any cameras, and there is a section on the listing page that shows them.

It's also very rare for a security system to include indoor cameras. My own uses motion detectors to provide information about climate control and lighting needs, but absolutely no interior cameras.

It's not clear to me that the object in the picture is a camera. If it is, I do think the host should rethink having cameras in a bedroom, but if that's what it takes for him/her to feel comfortable renting out the home, then as long as it's disclosed clearly, then it's OK.

<comment><USER104> I don't think its rare at all if its a managed security system. Ours came with cameras that are only on when the alarm is on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER105> "Will we be expected to review similarly complex documents/photos every time we enter a physical space? How can we avoid the illusion of consent that we currently have in the online world?"

You could start by understanding that when you participate in an activity that is attempting to extend the online experience into the physical world, that might be exactly what you get. Caveat emptor.

</comment><comment><USER106> I just assume that there will be camera constantly recording when I stay in airbnb, or anywhere really. They way I never have to worry about whether it exist or not. As recording technology becoming more and more advance, it's less and less reasonable to expect privacy. I rather adapt my life to fit this new culture.

<comment><USER43> I think expecting privacy will always be the reasonable approach. Giving bad actors an out because "oh well the technology's so advanced now let's just accept it" is giving creeps a pass.

<comment><USER106> I didn't say giving bad actor an out. Just because you have information doesn't mean you are allowed to use the information to harm me. Its still illegal to do so.

<comment><USER83> I'd be hesitant to have surveillance equipment or anything that could be _mistaken_ for surveillance equipment because a review that there is a camera in any of a landlord's properties would mean I'm not renting from them, ever.

I really don't care whether they _use_ whatever is recorded in a bad way or not.

<comment><USER106> Sure, its your choice.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Will Microsoft SQL Server Soon Work on Linux and Mac? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.developers.ba/will-microsoft-sql-server-soon-work-linux-mac/

<comment><USER2> That's a massive stretch of logic to go from .net is being open-sourced, to visual studio being released for linux and mac to SQL Server being released on Linux.

Wishful thinking perhaps?

I mean, I know SQL Server was once Sybase, and that's on linux ( [http://www.sybase.com/linux](http://www.sybase.com/linux) ) but after nearly 15? years on the windows platform, I expect that there's a lot of very windows-specific code has migrated in there :)

<comment><AUTHOR> It not be easy but it is a logical move if Microsoft wants expansion of SQL Server database.

<comment><USER2> And lose the additional license of an instance of windows server? ;)

Imagine also the support costs of supporting all those distros of Linux!</comment></comment></comment>


The Reverse Geocache Puzzle - <AUTHOR> http://arduiniana.org/projects/the-reverse-geo-cache-puzzle/

<comment><USER2> I found the box described in the fourth installment in the series [0] most interesting.

In the first 3 installments, he speaks of the original box he made for some friends as a wedding gift. It will only open when the GPS detects that it's on a particular island, at which point they get the goodies inside. The box in installment #4 is based on the original, but with the intent of being _reused_ or _regifted_. It has a USB port that, with the proper password, allows it to be reprogrammed to open at a new location.

It would be tempting to put a USB drive containing the software for reprogramming the box inside the container, and ask that it be passed on with a new gift once the first person has figured it out. It could be a gift that keeps on giving!

[0] <http://arduiniana.org/2010/02/puzzle-box-opens/>

</comment><comment><USER3> Fantastic adventure game! You can't take that thing on a plane, that's for certain. The inventor talks about disassembling the box but what if you were the recipient of a closed box? He talks about that too... Basically set the coordinates within non-flying distance.

Coca-Cola did something like this a while back, [http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=coca+cola+gps+coke+cans). They created a bunch of gps enabled coke cans and randomly distributed them. I heard about it through some aviation/counter terrorism security site that highlighted a study done by some three letter agency on the device for security purposes.

</comment><comment><USER4> And the original is apparently still unsolved! Too bad.

</comment><comment><USER5> Starting petition to reclaim box, give it to more willing participant.</comment>