Popcorn Time repository unavailable due to DMCA takedown - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn-desktop/issues <comment> kalium-xyz This is clear DMCA abuse, the popcorn time repository itself does not contain copyrighted content. This is why using a centralized closed source service managed by a tech conglomerate as the "hub" of our open source movement might not always be for the best

<comment><USER2> _> This is clear DMCA abuse_

I'm generally skeptical of these claims as the legal system typically doesn't look super fondly on technically-correct "I'm not touching you" arguments. So has this been litigated sufficiently to state this with such conviction? I'm not sufficiently familiar to know.

<comment><USER3> There is no such thing as a DMCA notice for contributory copyright infringement. A DMCA take down notice describes a particular resource that the claimant claims to be their intellectual property.

It is a straightforward I own foo. Using it to take down a tool that helps people access foo is perjury. It's just that we will actually jail people for committing the kind of crimes poor people commit but we refuse to prosecute the crimes rich people commit.

It's entirely possible that in the scope of another legal action the parties behind popcorn time might lose out THAT unlike this is the actually complex question.

This is pretty straightforward. You can only take down popcorn time if you can claim to own it thus its just the kind of crime we allow rich people to perpetrate upon poor people.

<comment><USER4> SCOTUS has ruled that creating a program who's purpose is to circumvent copyright, is a violation.

> Held: One who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to > infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative steps > taken to foster infringement, going beyond mere distribution with knowledge > of third-party action, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by > third parties using the device, regardless of the device's lawful uses.

source: [https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-480.ZS.html](https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/04-480.ZS.html)

<comment><USER5> _SCOTUS has ruled that creating a program who 's purpose is to circumvent copyright, is a violation._

This doesn't contradict the claim you're responding to. It may well be that Popcorn Time is illegal by way of contributing to copyright abuse, as you claim.

But that doesn't make a DMCA claim the correct tool for taking it down. As was said earlier, a DMCA claim specifically asserts ownership of the IP in question, and that is clearly not applicable here.

So sure, there's probably some tool that could be used to get it removed, but DMCA is not it. I'd guess they'd need some kind of more general cease and desist.

<comment><USER4> ...which is there was no DMCA in this situation. The title is wrong. They didn't file a DMCA claim.

<comment><USER6> …what? The repository [0] shows up as "unavailable due to DMCA takedown," and links to a notice [1] that explicitly references the DMCA.

[0]: [https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop](https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn-desktop)

[1]: [https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-0...](https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-01-MPA.md)

<comment><USER4> That's because Github doesn't have a different message for non-DMCA threats of lawsuits. If you look at one of the other top-level comments, you'll see that they didn't actually get a DMCA takedown - but a threatening lawyers letter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> The notice: [https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-0...](https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-01-MPA.md)

The counternotice: [https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-0...](https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-04-MPA- counternotice.md)

<comment><USER8> Note how that's not a DMCA notice in the usual sense ("we own the IP of content distributed on your platform"), but a "strongly worded letter" that mentions the DMCA but just says "we'd like your assistance in stopping this illegal activity". At least it's not run-of-the-mill DMCA abuse.

It's interesting that GitHub decided to process it like a DMCA notice, unclear to me if they had to, and even less clear if the counter-notice is meaningful.

<comment><USER9> I'm not a lawyer, but I believe this is an actual DMCA notice. It has all the required components[0] of one. Is there something I'm missing? What makes this not a DMCA notice?

0: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation_Act#Notice_from_copyright_owner)

<comment><USER10> It's not at all clear that they have identified anything on GitHub that is a copyright infringement. They've correctly claimed that the software is being used _elsewhere_ to accomplish infringement, but the URLs they identified aren't reproductions or derivative works of any movies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> So the question really boils down to "Does the DMCA let you submit takedown notices for tools which _aid_ infringement, even if the code itself is original and not an unauthorized copy of something else." IANAL, can anyone comment on whether the DMCA lets you do this?

It's clear from the takedown notice submitted by the MPA that (a) they are alleging that PopCornTime aids copyright infringement, not that the code itself is a copy, however the counternotice from the devs just says that (b) the code itself is original, but doesn't address that it is used and configured to scrape torrent files.

In short, though, I wouldn't hold my breath for PopCornTime. Napster and Limewire got taken down back in the day too for the same rationale.

<comment><USER12> Napster and Limewire were operating commercial entities. Popcorn is just a bunch of random developers making an open source project. How do you take down something which can trivially be replicated (Git is theoretically a distributed VCS)?

<comment><USER13> You can still sue the developers to pieces even if the project lives on.

<comment><USER14> For writing software?

Which torrent or emulator developers have been sued? I can't think of this having ever happened.

<comment><USER15> We are talking about American copyright predators. Few entities on our planet are more evil and malicious.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> As a non US citizen I own:

\- HBO Go

\- Youtube Premium

\- Netflix

\- Amazon Prime

However, content absolutely blows. I regularly go to cinemas, but there are not any tv shows in there. As of today I am going to cancel all of them and I know it's not much of a "blow" to their cash flow, but seriously, this is ridiculous. They kill the only platform that lets me watch content that's not available for me otherwise and that I would have gladly pay for if it was available. Popcorn time had an amazing support for streaming directly to TV, which was my main use case. I have a desktop computer in a separate room and I definitely do not plan on drilling my walls to push an HDMI cable through them. I guess it's time for Plex.

<comment><USER17> Plex with something like Sonarr set up is a bit of a hassle to configure but generally works pretty well for this in my experience.

I agree though, it used to be great when you could pay $10 a month for Netflix and it actually had most content you wanted. Now you pay more than that to three or four services and still don't get everything. I wish the film industry would come up with something like what Spotify did for music and what Steam did for video games. Make your content easily available legally for a reasonable fee and piracy rates will naturally go down.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> For those of you curious - you can still download Popcorn time directly on [https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop](https://github.com/popcorn-official/popcorn-desktop) [https://get.popcorntime.app/](https://get.popcorntime.app/)

<comment><USER19> And an archived copy of the repo: [https://web.archive.org/web/20200411155357/https://github.co...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200411155357/https://github.com/popcorn- official/popcorn-desktop)

<comment><USER7> Is this an actual, full archive?

<comment><USER20> Does not look like it to me. Zip download failed, not sure you can git clone from that url.

<comment><USER21> [https://i.imgur.com/xS7PLmP.png](https://i.imgur.com/xS7PLmP.png) works for me

made you a copy [https://gateway.ipfs.io/ipfs/QmeTXtu2U4z7m1yWwU2qco2sUQoxPh5...](https://gateway.ipfs.io/ipfs/QmeTXtu2U4z7m1yWwU2qco2sUQoxPh5tCKaL8WayaVHpPP)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I haven't used PopCornTime for a long time, as I have Netflix+HBO subscriptions, but it's time to reinstall it as a way to disobay the takedown.

<comment><USER23> You don't want Popcorn Time - you want Stremio

<comment><USER24> Care to elaborate?

<comment><USER23> supports commercial providers (Netflix, iTunes, Hulu) to find content, magnet links for webtorrent viewing, plugin architecture, no affiliate links or adware, and their github is currently live

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> This is why I regularly back up my github repos (via git clone --bare, then compress and archive). Mind you, I do nothing that even comes close to piracy, and the vast majority most of my repos are private, but it's a nightmare scenario to have your third party dictate when you have access to your source code and pop up surprises like this, whether by having some asshole try to extort you, or by the git repo having a data disaster with your repo.

<comment><USER26> Why not create a mirror to Gitlab for example?

<comment><USER27> For someone who casually wants to do this, Gitea is a lot lighter than gitlab to self host (and in my experience a breeze to install, but gitlab is probably the same).

<comment><USER28> For some repositories that probably will be terminated on Github at some point, I have set up cloning on private Gitea instance. Disabled tree overwrite on some branches and have them backed up in case something else happens. So far I have never needed to use it, but it makes me feel better.

And no, Gitlab is not as easy to maintain. You can probably set it up in Docker easily, but overall it has many moving parts and it requires more resource, while Gitea is just a single Golang binary and is a joy to use.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Here is my guess: the people who filed the notice know it is bogus, and also know that to contest it, the PopcornTime authors would have to provide their real names and contact info, and the lawyers want that info so they can sue them for contributory copyright infringement.

</comment><comment><USER30> So the DMCA requires identification of "material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity". It seems pretty clear that the requested content is not by itself infringing. Is anybody aware of case law on how the "subject of infringing activity" is to be read?

<comment><USER31> I'm sure the argument is that Napster- and Grokster-style contributory infringement is infringement. I have a hard time imagining source code enticing people to infringe copyright, but if the program encourages infringement, I suppose the repository is a logical target.

I won't predict whether the contributory infringement argument will win. I'm sure the law was written with direct infringement in mind, but I don't think that rules out creative interpretations by itself.

I believe the clearest approach would be for the MPA to not bother with a DMCA notice, and just sue the project directly. But if you can get what you want on the cheap, why not try? And I'm not sure a lawsuit against the project would do much good: even assuming the MPA were to get an injunction, they'd need to play whack-a-mole to track down anybody using the PopCornTime code.

<comment><USER30> Right, I concur with the reasoning that contributory infringement could be argued against the developers, but I think the interesting questions is whether that reasoning can be extended to the "material" under the takedown section - particularly as written. If so that seems like the kinds of thing that could get ugly very quickly. E.g. are instructions on how to google for infringing material suddenly infringing?

<comment><USER31> I understood that DMCA notice/counternotice procedure was meant to provide a streamlined process for simple cases, which could be migrated to an actual court if necessary. I don't like seeing it stretched to cover cases that aren't so simple.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Popcorn Time, at least the last time I was brave enough to use it, was breathtaking. It was like having a cheat mode for TV.

It looked great. It had absolutely all the content one could possibly want. I'd love to know more about the creators.

In the end kicking that hornets nest wasn't worth the risk of having the book thrown at us.

<comment><USER33> I once read a good long-form article about him, but I can't find it now. Check this out though, basically, a webdev from Argentina, fed up with distribution of movies to his country: [https://www.dn.no/magasinet/popcorn- time/spotify/federico-ab...](https://www.dn.no/magasinet/popcorn- time/spotify/federico-abad/pirate-bay/inside-popcorn-time-the-worlds-fastest- growing-piracy-site/1-1-5453911)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> This has happened before: [https://lumendatabase.org/blog_entries/722](https://lumendatabase.org/blog_entries/722)

Looks like they're trying again since Github was acquired by a big corp (Microsoft).

</comment><comment><USER35> The MPA is not even claiming copyright on any of the files in the repository; it just complaining about the "extensive copyright infringement of motion pictures and television programs that is occurring by virtue of the operation and further development of the Popcorn Time repositories".

Then it links some files as kind of "proof".

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to be.

</comment><comment><USER36> Streisand effect.

I may have heard of Popcorn Time before, but I never used it. Now I do.

</comment><comment><USER37> What is PopCornTime?

It is the "Netflix" of pirated movies, learn more here:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcorn_Time](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcorn_Time)

<comment><USER38> > What is PopCornTime?

b7861e52eda1961101b605593fd2b4e8c2210e41

> I haven't used PopCornTime for a long time, as I have Netflix+HBO > subscriptions, but it's time to reinstall it as a way to disobay the > takedown.

> only tested it years ago, can't be arsed with the gobshite one gets mainly > from US.. media junk, like the food. but min this is back up, I will give it > a swirl.

When will they learn a p2p system/network can never truly be taken down so long as Human's have personal agency. Furthermore, Github was always a central point of failure, made even more vulnerable due to its purchase from M$. This only further proves why that is.

> Out of touch politicians coming up with tech policy in the 90s. Tada!

This is mere optics and one motivated by self-praise as it doesn't really work. But I'm glad some carry on the spirit of Gene Kan.

<comment><USER39> > > What is PopCornTime?

> b7861e52eda1961101b605593fd2b4e8c2210e41

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:b7861e52eda1961101b605593fd2b4e8c2210e41&dn=PopCornTime doesn't seem to exist, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. But yes; as the saying goes, censorship is damage; the internet routes around it.

<comment><USER38> That's the hash to the .apk file, I just checked it again and it actually has more seeders on it then when I posted. Are you on any viable trackers?

Even googling it takes you to the many search engines where its stats can be found:

seeds: 33 leechers: 5.

<comment><USER39> Huh, doesn't seem to be in DHT for me, not really sure what going wrong there. Are you sure it's not marked private (aka is a corrupt or invalid infoblob)? And no, none of top three results on duckduckgo has a working tracker for it.

<comment><USER38> Shrug, running fine on my end. Try adding these:

[https://extratorrent.cm/torrent_trackers/4023101/popcorn- tim...](https://extratorrent.cm/torrent_trackers/4023101/popcorn- time-v3-6-2-apk-watch-movies-tv-apkmaza.html)

Failing that, and you still want the file(s), here it is for all supported distros [1], download them and re-up and seed and post the torrent/hash here.

[https://getpopcorntime.is/android.html](https://getpopcorntime.is/android.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> Very interesting. The repository does not contain any copyrighted content, but it unabashedly promotes copyright violation.

<comment><USER7> The precedent the notice cites: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,_Ltd.), specifically the opinion provided:

> We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its > use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative > steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting acts of > infringement by third parties.

<comment><USER41> What an obscene abuse of power that ruling is. Are gun shops liable for the mass shootings that take place by people that bought guns there? Didn't think so. Going after the tool-makers is right out of the authoritarian playbook.

<comment><USER42> I think there's a valid distinction between a product that can be misused but has a legitimate use, and a product solely built to enable illegal activity. If the business knows their product isn't useful for anything but crime, the only reason they're in business is the crime.

VLC Media Player is a multi-use video player sometimes used to play pirated videos. BitTorrent is a peer-to-peer file transfer protocol designed to transfer and distribute large files efficiently. Popcorn Time is explicitly built to find and play illegally shared content.

<comment><USER43> Practically I agree with you, but I'm not sure there actually is a distinction in a legal sense. _Technically_ Popcorn Time can be used to watch legal/non- pirated content, so they have some form of plausible deniability.

I could go down the street to the smoke shop and buy myself a bong right now, because _technically_ I could use it to smoke tobacco, even though everyone knows that's not what 99% of people are doing with them. You don't see the ATF or DEA shutting them down.

<comment><USER42> In this case, I think the reason their plausible deniability goes out the window is the pre-configured options to search for illegal content.

It'll be interesting to see if removing those files from Popcorn Time does, in fact, get them reinstated.

<comment><USER41> This is (legally) a fair point. If you're linking to illegal content then perhaps that is grounds under this particular ruling for a takedown.

In general though, I object to links themselves being illegal content. If you give somebody the phone number of a drug dealer, can you be charged with selling or distribution of drugs?

<comment><USER42> The law fundamentally builds on the concept of intent: Did I give you Steve's phone number, or did I give you the phone number of Steve, my drug dealer, because you were interested in buying drugs from him. Criminal law depends on both the actual act, and the _intention to commit a crime_. That's why most technical workarounds people claim should exempt them from the law tend to not work: The intent is the same.

Disclaimer: I do not actually have a drug dealer named Steve.

<comment><USER41> Proving intent is the most difficult part of criminal law. If intent was all that mattered, why does Google remove copyrighted links from its search results? The intent for Google clearly isn't to distribute illegal content, but to provide links to as much as possible on the web (or at least, it used to be). But even DDG compiles with DMCA. A generic search engine is still required by law to take down links, even if the intent isn't there. Which proves that the mere act of "handing over a phone number" is enough.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> Related:

 _The Hawaiian company "42 Ventures" has registered various piracy-related trademarks. The company currently owns the US word marks for YTS, Popcorn Time, and Terrarium, which it uses to target key piracy services. This recently resulted in the suspension of the Twitter account of a popular Popcorn Time fork.[0]_

[https://torrentfreak.com/company-registers-yts-and- popcorn-t...](https://torrentfreak.com/company-registers-yts-and-popcorn-time- trademarks-to-promote-legal-streaming-200407/)

</comment><comment><USER45> > Popcorn Software is a multi-platform, free software BitTorrent client that > includes an integrated media player.

<comment><USER46> "Use it as it suits you on your own responsibility." DMCA abuse.

<comment><USER45> Why did you reply to me? I literally just copied and pasted the project description (the comment section was empty when I posted it, and I didn't even know what Popcorn Time is...), and I didn't state any position on DMCA (to set the records straight, I'm not a fan of DMCA). Please do not blindly assume other people's positions based on what they _didn 't_ say. Thanks.

BTW, I didn't downvote your comment.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> Can you use the DMCA in this way?

<comment><USER48> The DMCA is easy to abuse without any consequences. There's no known case of anyone ever being legally sanctioned for filing a DMCA takedown, even when it involved lies such as assertions of copyright ownership that were clearly untrue.

<comment><USER49> Depends on what your criteria is. Google settled for 25k with someone who submitted fake notices to YouTube. Given that most litigation ends before a decision, it's likely there's been other private settlements.

More broadly than just DMCA, but here's a partial list of successful cases:

[https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4226764/dynamic- designs...](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4226764/dynamic-designs- distribution-incorporated-v-nalin-manufacturing-llc/) awarded declaratory judgement and 37k in attorney fees for a false claim made to eBay (see docket 38) >On November 11, 2011, Mr. Nalin filed a "VeRO complaint with eBay asserting that the Dynamic Designs speaker adapter infringed Nalin's trademark rights."

[https://courts.state.md.us/sites/default/files/import/appell...](https://courts.state.md.us/sites/default/files/import/appellate/unreportedopinions/2017/2556s15.pdf) 150k jury award of punitive damages, reduced by appeals court to 75k, for a false Amazon complaint of counterfeiting

[https://casetext.com/case/alexander-binzel-corporation-v- nu-...](https://casetext.com/case/alexander-binzel-corporation-v-nu-tecsys- corporation) really old case not involving the Internet, but a $4 million jury award reduced by the district court to $2.34 million+interest for false claims of counterfeiting

<comment><USER48> Given the large number of attempts at legal sanctions which have all failed, I'm not so sure that an out-of-court settlement is that interesting. So yes, that's what I think is important.

Edit: I'm having a hard time keeping up with your edits, can you stop editing at some point?

You've added 3 links about counterfitting. The DMCA only applies to copyrights, not trademarks or patents.

<comment><USER49> I think I only did one edit to add the cases, won't edit that comment any more.

I did disclaim that those are broader than DMCA. I'm well aware of the distinctions.

You're looking only for final judgements? I have a handful where a judge ordered the DMCA notice to be retracted and ordered them not to refile it, and then the case settled, presumably on favorable terms.

I agree DMCA cases seem to be harder to win than trademark/patent abuse.

<comment><USER48> If you're aware of the distinctions, then why are you bringing up irrelevant trademark / patent / counterfeiting cases?

A required retraction is not much of a legal sanction.

I love having interesting discussions about this topic, but this discussion isn't one.

<comment><USER49> >A required retraction is not much of a legal sanction.

It gives somewhat of a hint about the nature of the settlement, which in most cases is private. There do seem to be a decent number of settlements; my guess is the most egregious cases all settle, and the ones that move forward are harder to win.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> If you are running a torrent site with "links" (.torrent files available) it's illegal. Torrent site is not hosting any videos, just links to them. This is exactly the same with popcorn time because they have providers in their code base. In case of the torrent site interface is a website, in case of popcorn time it's an desktop application. If they would remove providers (torrent sites/trackers with illegal content) from their code then DMCA would be invalid.

</comment><comment><USER51> Will projects like this switch to using Gitlab? Is there a reason they don't?

<comment><USER52> Looks like they were already using it as a backup: [https://gitlab.com/popcorn-official/popcorn- desktop](https://gitlab.com/popcorn-official/popcorn-desktop) but last commit a year ago? I guess they will push latest commits soon

<comment><USER53> Would GitLab resist DCMA better than GitHub?

<comment><USER54> Alteast you can host your own gitlab.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> by that token duckduckgo should be taken down : [https://duckduckgo.com/?q=watch+movies+online+free&ia=news](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=watch+movies+online+free&ia=news) . This is literally the only thing I use ddg for.

</comment><comment><USER56> Hosting this kind of software on a US based server is just plain daft.

<comment><USER12> It's a distributed VCS. All it takes to push it to another server is 'git push'.

<comment><USER27> I think git remote add might be helpful before pushing :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER57> [http://web.archive.org/web/20190402223528/https://github.com...](http://web.archive.org/web/20190402223528/https://github.com/popcorn- official/popcorn-desktop/issues)

Looks like this was a fork from [https://github.com/butterproject/butter- desktop](https://github.com/butterproject/butter-desktop) which is still up

</comment><comment><USER58> Git's style of decentralization, still requires individual git servers no? Is there something like git, but based on magnet/torrent architecture?

<comment><USER59> Required? Not really. You can work without a central server, pulling from individuals machines over SFTP or SMB as we did for a few years in the early 2010s.

It was always awkward and we moved to GitHub shortly before I left.

</comment></comment><comment><USER60> I think this is a good opportunity to assess the commutment of github (microsoft) to support free software. I am not a lawyer, but it seems clear that this an abuse. I bet that the repository will become available again. IMHO the duration of the takedown is a good KPI of the trust deserved by github. More than 24 hours would be bad. Less than 4 hours would be good.

<comment><USER61> From this comment [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23075667](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23075667) it sounds like they're required to leave it down for 10 days.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> Why is the entity that posted the takedown not identified?

Seems like an important detail.

(And today I discovered there's a bittorrent utility called popcorn time)

<comment><USER63> It is: [https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-0...](https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/05/2020-05-01-MPA.md)

<comment><USER62> Thanks. Didn't see that[1]. So they included links to the "nasty" as files in the project. That seems like an unwise decision.

[1] just click "publically posted".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> This is not fun. Github bending over every time is not good for us. The Instagram API thing was bad enough, now this. Hurray for M$.

</comment><comment><USER65> PopCornTime is a scraper, could one argue that it does not contain DMCA materials only accesses it like a Doom client accesses a Doom server or you build your own Doom server.

The DMCA violation is on the Internet from servers that allow web scraping and hosts the files or P2P Torrent networks that don't store the file on the PCT software.

I'm not a lawyer.

</comment><comment><USER66> Good lesson abut host country related risk involved in using Github, in addition to the trade sanctions related ones.

</comment><comment><USER67> Looks like they got shutdown on Twitter as well:

[https://twitter.com/popcorntimetv](https://twitter.com/popcorntimetv)

</comment><comment><USER68> I have lost any remaining respect I had for GitHub. The whole point of git is to be decentralized and this is a great example if why that is important.

</comment><comment><USER69> I do think it makes sense (as, well, majority of people don't use it to get free videos about how to install Linux), but it's very very tricky balance, and each time they're being pushed there should be a lot of discussion and scrutiny.

Compare that to gun rights discussion. Apps like popcorntime are similar to assault weapons - cool tech, but not much legit legal reason for an average joe to own it. And they both make illegal activity much, much easier.

Note - before someone says that I equal downloading movie to killing people. I don't, but framework of legal thinking is similar.

<comment><USER70> > Apps like popcorntime are similar to assault weapons

All analogies breakdown under close scrutiny.

What I don't understand is why people contiue to make analogies where none are required.

The _arguement against_ Popcorn Time is simple and straighforward: It is overwhelming used to circumvent copywrite / avoid paying for access to content.

Whether anyone agrees with that argument or not is immaterial to my point: we don't need to compare the _arguement against_ to anything else because its meaning is self-evident.

<comment><USER13> I would hope that any gun shop that sells products with the slogan "you can murder your spouse or neighbour with them, but you can also shoot animals or walls I guess".gets shut down ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Does this takedown affect anyone who forked the repo?

<comment><USER7> I believe takedowns usually cause forks to be deleted as well.

<comment><USER71> Looks like there are still hundreds of popcorn time derivatives floating around: [https://github.com/search?q=popcorn+time&ref=opensearch](https://github.com/search?q=popcorn+time&ref=opensearch)

<comment><USER7> They'll go after those too later, but that's a manual process.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> looks like its only the desktop version, which is available on wayback machine: [https://web.archive.org/web/20200411155357/https://github.co...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200411155357/https://github.com/popcorn- official/popcorn-desktop)

</comment><comment><USER73> Can any blockchain hold blobs and more importantly how much it will cost?

For example I know the Stellar blockchain can hold a small amount of text content called "memo" when making a transaction, but not sure if the "memo" field can be used _after_ a transaction is made. Probably it is a public field that can be read by anyone?

I was always wondering what if we start putting content into a blockchain in general.

<comment><USER74> IPFS does this. It doesn't have blockchain incentives though. Hosting is based on good will, like with torrents.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> Imagine using githovel.

Just host it yourself.

</comment><comment><USER76> Copyrights on movies should not last longer than 'copyrights' of new drugs and technologies.

20 years?

<comment><USER12> Patents? 20 years from filing. But copyright is different and usually associated with lifetime of the author. Disney has... bastardized this with aggressive lobbying.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> I've changed my view radically on mass piracy since what I believed in my youth, and I no longer agree with or have any sympathy with it.

In the information age, most valuable labor is increasingly the creation of information. "Information wants to be free" means "labor wants to be free." In other words "I want other people's labor to be free," or "gimme free stuff and I don't care if anyone else can make a living."

Then there is the effect of everything being free. In the Internet media world it helped lead to surveillance capitalism, since that's the only viable business model. Another viable model is propaganda. So if you want more of those things, by all means undermine simple overt non-sketchy paid business models.

</comment><comment><USER72> next they will take down Reynolds Wrap because people can use it to smoke crack.

</comment><comment><USER78> Most of the comments here seem to miss the crucial point: it doesn't matter whether the DMCA really applies here. Github is privately owned. If Microsoft wants to take down this repository (which they host for free), they are most certainly allowed to and do not even have to give a reason.

<comment><USER10> Whether the DMCA takedown procedure applies here _is_ important, because it determines who to blame. If the procedure is valid to use in this way, then the MPA is who gets the blame for making it harder to get PopcornTime.

But if it doesn't apply here and Microsoft is acting outside of that procedure and its protections, then legally and morally it's GitHub censoring a project because they don't like it. Which GitHub's Terms of Service let them do, but the ToS doesn't say the users have to be happy about it. (And it would also be the MPA abusing a legal procedure that was already written to favor them, which is certainly a topic fit for public debate.)</comment></comment>


Apple challenges RED patent claims on RAW video - <AUTHOR> https://www.docketalarm.com/cases/PTAB/IPR2019-01065/Inter_Partes_Review_of_U.S._Pat._9245314/05-06-2019-Petitioner/Petition-2-Petition_for_IPR_of_US_Patent_No_9245314/ <comment><AUTHOR> For those of you who don't know, RED has for years been using these patents, which include claims on techniques that would have been obvious to a domain expert at the time of filing, to stifle competition from other camera manufacturers.

v. Sony in 2013: [https://www.engadget.com/2013/02/14/red-sues-sony-over- paten...](https://www.engadget.com/2013/02/14/red-sues-sony-over-patents- wants-offending-f-series-cameras-de)

Blackmagic also recently removed CinemaDNG from their camera lineup to avoid the considerable expense of litigation.

Thank you, Tim Cook!</comment>


The iPad could revolutionize health care - <AUTHOR> http://www.thebigmoney.com/articles/0s-1s-and-s/2010/04/07/apple-day

<comment><USER2> If that's the case, why didn't the Tablet PC do the job? Medical applications similar to those described in the article were supposed to be the "killer app" for the Tablet, but the adoption was negligible.</comment>


Pokemon Go for iOS and Android - <AUTHOR> http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-video-games/pokemon-go/ <comment><USER2> Kind of crazy to think how different Pokemon Red/Blue would have been if they were developed in the current age. Buy a rare candy for $1. Pay 10 cents to heal the PokeCenter. You're only allowed 20 battles in a day unless you invite friends on facebook.

Would have made so much money.

<comment><USER3> Their fundamental motto is "Don't make the mother an enemy". They are unlikely to pursue a play to win model even today.

[http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/COLUMN/20121009/244635/...](http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/COLUMN/20121009/244635/?P=2)

<comment><USER4> "Don't make the mother an enemy"

What does that even mean?

<comment><USER5> I suppose it could be referencing the fact that the mother buys the games and allows her kids to play them. Making an enemy of her means no game time?

<comment><USER3> Yup that's what it means.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> All we ever wanted was a Pokemon (like the gameboy games) but in 3D and for a home console.

We hoped they'd do it for the Nintendo 64 (Pokemon Snap was FANTASTIC, Pokemon Stadium fun, but no full-fledged Pokemon adventure game).

Then we hoped they'd do it for the Gamecube.

Then we hoped they'd do it for the Wii.

Then I crawled under a rock and stopped caring about video games.

Also, since about halfway through the lifecycle of the Wii I really wished Nintendo would start being a software-only company and move away from hardware so they could focus on amazing content. I'm still rooting for them even though I don't keep up to date with what's current in gaming.

<comment><USER7> Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness is in 3D and is available on Gamecube. It's pretty cool.

Here's a video of a battle in it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG5AfTYYz8w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG5AfTYYz8w)

<comment><USER8> I have fond memories of Pokemon XD. Wish they'd make another one like it for the Wii U or whatever the NX turns out to be.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> While I'm sure it'll be enjoyable on a phone (Ingress still has quite the cult following) the video just screams augmented reality. I can't wait until augmented reality tech is broadly out there because I could see this appealing to many. The phone version like Ingress? Well not me at least but I won't knock it. It's an interesting concept.

</comment><comment><USER10> From what I've gathered, this is something the fans have been asking for for years. The Half-Life 3 of Pokemon, so to speak.

<comment><USER11> That "Half Life 3" of Pokemon has always been a 3D Pokemon MMO. Not a Augmented Reality game: an actual MMO.

That still won't ever happen.

<comment><USER12> Or a 3D console Pokemon. Or Pokemon Snap 2.

I would be more interested in Pokemon Snap 2 than either an MMO or straight 3D title.

<comment><USER13> I am desperately awaiting someone to make Pokemon Snap 2 in a way that is compatible with an Oculus Rift or other VR headset.

I would pay an absolutely unreasonable amount of money for that game and I'm not a massive Pokemon fan. Red was good, Snap was great. Let me take a virtual tour through Pokemon land now, please.

<comment><USER14> I love that people liked Snap - I thought it was brilliant, although at the time it didn't get great reviews.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This really does sound awesome, I think I've played nearly every Pokemon title released for the gameboy, gbc, gba and nds. (after that I grew up a bit).

And I always missed a pokemon like title on my Android phone, if this game is the least bit like pokemon red it really could be awesome. I don't know if I'll be driving around town with the Pokemon Go Plus but I'm certain I'll find myself checking my phone more often while walking around and nearly having my pokemon on the desired level..

<comment><USER16> I don`t know. I played ingress and it was very headache and vertigo inducing. Any game that you need to look down at your phone for an extended time and walk around. Feels like a bad idea. Or just too early, because it would need a heads up display like Google Glass to be sucessful.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Now if only Pokemon and other Nintendo properties were available for Android and iOS. But I guess they have determined that this is not in their best interests... :/

<comment><USER11> Pokemon Shuffle is available on iOS/Android: [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pokemon-shuffle- mobile/id101...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/pokemon-shuffle- mobile/id1014919815?mt=8)

Before his passing, Iwata announced plans for more mobile games (and Nintendo stock had spiked because of it). However, the collaboration with DeNA for a custom branded Puzzle and Dragons ([http://www.mariowiki.com/Puzzle_%26_Dragons:_Super_Mario_Bro...](http://www.mariowiki.com/Puzzle_%26_Dragons:_Super_Mario_Bros._Edition) ) I hear did not sell well. So we'll see.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Ok this is a silly "uncool dad" question but my gaming chops stopped with Gauntlet.

Should my pokemon obsessed six year old receive a Nintendo 3Ds for Xmas, or an iPad mini with Pokemon Go on it ?

My intuition is to go for the iPad as a more general platform and more understandable - but the main use case here is Pokemon

So, embarrassing question but don't want Santa to make the wrong delivery

<comment><USER19> I would go with the iPad mini too! Hopefully the Pokemon Go will come soon, meanwhile the Pokemon shuffle will last him/her for awhile!

<comment><USER20> Pokémon Shuffle does not compare to a fully featured story game. Growing up I played Pokémon games on my Gameboy Color while out with the parents (of course, this long predates WiFi) . Shuffle requires being online to function, vastly reducing the places it can function.

I agree with other commenters. The poster should purchase a 3DS.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Seems like the perfect thing to develop a Pebble (or others) app for instead of an extra BT device. If they include that from day one I would have a hard time not dropping full console price on this game.

</comment><comment><USER19> I wonder if Ingress will be actively developed once Pokemon Go is released...

<comment><USER22> Well, Ingress is getting long in the tooth.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Anyone know if Niantic is still part of Alphabet or if it's spun off completely ?

<comment><USER24> 13th of August this year I got the following email

>We're excited to share with you that Niantic Labs - the creator of Ingress and Field Trip - is becoming an independent company. You can read more about the announcement here. We're looking forward to taking our unique blend of exploration and fun to even bigger audiences. More details coming soon.

To prevent any disruption in your gameplay, Google will transfer to Niantic Labs certain data that you agreed to share with Google for the Ingress app under the Google Privacy Policy, specifically gameplay information and your email address.

Accordingly, we are providing you this notice that this information will transfer to Niantic Labs thirty days from August 12th, 2015. If you do not wish to have this personal information transferred to Niantic Labs, please follow the steps at www.ingress.com/optout.

Please note that if you select "No" all your Ingress app data, including Achievement History, Game Progression and other Account information, will be deleted on or before September 11, 2015 and cannot be restored.

The name and contact information for the new company are as follows: Niantic, Inc. Email: email@example.com

<comment><USER23> I got the same email, and it does not answer my question. Different Alphabet companies could handle data separately.

<comment><USER24> [http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/14/niantic- la...](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/14/niantic-labs-departs- google-alphabet-ingress)

<comment><USER23> Thanks.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> pokedaily pride worldwide?</comment>


How to use GitHub effectively for your project - <AUTHOR> http://lumberjaph.net/dancer/2011/03/06/how_to_use_github_effectively_for_your_project.html

<comment><USER2> Feature and Review branches are a great idea. It just makes it so easy to work in parallel on different things, and to context-switch when you get blocked. Honestly, I can't remember how we used to solve these problems with SVN. If you're in the middle of developing a feature and need to wait for someone to get back to you, the options for switching to a different feature with SVN are pretty limited.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is interesting. What I'm curious about though, is how does this workflow scale to thirty developers? 100?

I tend to believe with six people or less, you can really work together with any system and it will work fine. Some will obviously require more work than others, but once you get to a larger team, some systems just won't work, AFAIK.

<comment><USER4> From my experience with working with 50+ developers, organized into teams of 3-8 people: Feature branches are the way to go. We used an adapted version of the git-flow workflow and it does scale pretty nicely.

<comment><USER5> I like Gitflow alot, how did you guys adapt it? Was anything major required to get it to scale up to 50+?

<comment><USER4> We experimented with team branches to integrate work of the subteams before merging into develop, but that did not work out very well

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> We also follow feature development workflow with git:

[http://reinh.com/blog/2009/03/02/a-git-workflow-for-agile- te...](http://reinh.com/blog/2009/03/02/a-git-workflow-for-agile- teams.html#feature-development)</comment>


Cladwell Week 9 — No code to revenue in nine weeks - <AUTHOR> http://differential.io/blog/cladwell-week-9-no-code-to-revenue-in-nine-weeks-thats-how-we-roll

<comment><USER2> Nice article, be interesting to see if 9 weeks of work is enough. I hope the author follows up more.

<comment><USER3> Normally I'd just upvote, but I figured it's worth a comment to second this. It's always good to see the 'launch' article, but it feels a bit more promotional than informative. I'd like to see a post-launch with some of the gory details.

It'd also be good to see some detailed predictions about what they think is going to happen. There's nothing like pen and paper to close the predictive feedback loop.

Edit: And of course, good luck to the folks at Cladwell!

<comment><USER4> My prediction last night = a tiny, tiny trickle of sales at first, because we have missed on some important assumptions.

But ultimately we have no idea what'll happen, hence why it's so valuable to get the product out in the wild.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> For what it's worth, the text in the footer looks fuzzy to me (in a way that hurts my eyes on a TN panel, on IPS it's slightly less bad)

(Chrome, Windows 7 64-bit)

<comment><USER4> Yep I told our designer that. Rotating text then rotating it back is how you can fuzzy your text, if you want to replicate it :)

Seriously tho, we're going to fix it... too bad clean CSS technique ends up this way.</comment></comment>


Steve Jobs Rejected The First Medical App In 1977 - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryhusten/2014/02/27/steve-jobs-rejected-the-first-medical-app-in-1977/

<comment><USER2> The less tantalizing title is "Steve Jobs was uninterested in building the pet application of a non-technical, non-businessman while he was leading the fastest growing company in the world." At the time, Apple's revenue was doubling every FOUR MONTHS.

</comment><comment><USER3> I mean it's a fairly good, strategic explanation - nothing was stopping this guy from building the software himself. He just wanted Apple to help market and distribute it - but medical software is not Apple's business. I'm sure there would have been another software company perfectly willing to take up the cause.

What is annoying though? Jobs let him fly all the way up to Cupertino only to promptly turn him down. Certainly a "no" on the phone would have worked just as well.

<comment><USER4> He was in a position to help him, without spending too much time on it.. "Here is a list of people that could help you. I will let them know you need help".

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> "...people who really knew something more about programming than I did..." \- should've contacted Woz.

</comment><comment><USER6> "There was nowhere else to go"... so, meh, throw in the towel? I do hope I'm just reading that part wrong.

</comment><comment><USER7> "Bayes' theorem– a sophisticated and complex tool for analyzing probability"

Uh... really?</comment>


Ask HN: Does HN run ads? - <AUTHOR> Because the current item on the front page,

    After 3 years, Flexport ships 4% of Amazon's merchandise value. Join Our Team (fastcompany.com)
 has no down/upvote options, and no comments section. Never seen anything like it. Has HN started showing ads? <comment><USER2> Job ads can be posted by YC companies. That has been a HN feature for years.

<comment><USER3> It's even mentioned in the FAQ:

"The other kind of job ad is reserved for YC-funded startups. These appear on the front page, but are not stories: they have no vote arrows, points, or comments. They begin part-way down, then fall steadily, and only one should be on the front page at a time."

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Where can I watch an Xcode Master at Work? - <AUTHOR> Sometimes I stumble on a video of someone extremely talented and experienced using a professional tool. Just watching the way they work I often learn something great. Could be a way to use the tool, organize, shortcut--often it's something the author thought was obvious or a tangent that isn't the point of the video.
I'd like to find some videos of experienced xcode developers working.
I work from home these days so I can't pair with coworkers, which is probably what I'd do at a bigger company.
I started learning iOS development about a year ago, and I want to get better. I've watched lots of tutorials, but these are often scripted, use simplified applications, skip the typing or use robotext.
I'd love to find a video of someone really just working. You folks know of any? <comment><AUTHOR> I thought of a very concise way to say this. Tutorial videos teach me known unknowns.

I want to learn some things I don't even know are unknown.

</comment><comment><USER2> The Stanford iOS course is useful in this regard. I remember when I was first starting out it really helped me see someone use all the little bits of Interface Builder. I remember rewinding frequently to re-watch him do something like ctrl-click-drag to wire up an IBOutlet collection or something.

</comment><comment><USER3> I dont know about Xcode but if you youtube "<programming language> speedcoding" you can find some people doing real work.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah, great. That phrase "speedcoding" is exactly what I was looking for; hadn't heard of it before. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've never used it, but I know that [https://www.livecoding.tv/](https://www.livecoding.tv/) is a thing.</comment>


Stack Overflow Is Down - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> I wonder if stackoverflow being down might affect their search for solutions to their current issues.

<comment><USER3> haha! was just gonna ask who they are going to search for solutions lol

<comment><USER3> <insert high-availability joke>

(was going to insert tcp joke but didn't know if everyone would get it...)

this makes me ponder about whom you check do see if THIS is down...

[https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/](https://www.isitdownrightnow.com/)

<comment><USER4> Isn't it udp, because y'know, it doesn't confirm, while tcp does.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Toki Pona: A Language with a Hundred Words (2015) - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/07/toki-pona-smallest-language/398363/ <comment><USER2> In high school I was the founder of our (small) Esperanto Club. I gave Esperanto lessons each week at our club meeting designed as a one year course, usually by the end of the year if someone attended each week and did moderate self study outside of class they could communicate in Esperanto really well. We even had one international student who really struggled with english that after a few months of attending our club could communicate with us in Esperanto more fluently than English!

We had one a freshman join during my senior year who was a huge advocate of Toki Pona as a conlang. We decided to devote a month of the club to Toki Pona instead of Esperanto and it was mind boggling how quickly everyone was able to get a grasp of it. Granted Toki Pona is much more "wordy" than Esperanto, you often have to use many words to convey an idea that you could express quickly in a language with a larger vocabulary. Regardless it was an absolute blast to learn and I'm surprised by how much I remember.

Once I got to college there seemed to be a severe lack of interest in Esperanto, or any conlang for that matter, amongst the student body. I could never really keep enough people interested the same way I could in high school so I gave up after my sophomore year. I really miss teaching people Esperanto. I believe the club at my high school still runs to this day, I'd love to be able to go back and visit one day.

<comment><USER3> I bloody wish there were good modern Esperanto courses. I've found a Michel Thomas method Esperanto course once but it was incomplete. I would really love to buy a complete one (even for a price higher than what other languages cost). Intuition suggests I'm not the only one interested although there probably are not too many. This means the demand, albeit humble, certainly is higher than the offer. You might consider running a croudsourcing campaign and making some good modern Esperanto resources if you really feel interested in teaching people Esperanto.

<comment> D-Coder Have you tried Duolingo ([https://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en/Learn- Esperanto](https://www.duolingo.com/course/eo/en/Learn-Esperanto))? If so, what did you think of it? It's free, with a subscription option for more features.

<comment><USER3> It's nice but fairly boring (e.g. too much repetitions of the same stupid questions) and not even nearly as good as Michel Thomas or Pimsleur.

I wish somebody would just take something like one of those courses for e.g. Spanish and replace Spanish words with Esperanto. Obviously that would mean pirating the actual method but it would be blatantly hypocritical of me to pretend I care. With a croudsourcing campaign, however, there are chances to do that (or something even more interesting) officially, pay the royalties etc and I would gladly contribute a reasonable amount of money.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I've said it before, but the problem with having only a hundred words is that they are the _hardest_ one hundred words in any languages. To a foreign learner, easy words are hard, and hard words are easy.

To someone learning English as a foreign language, "banish" is easy to understand: it has just one meaning, so once you memorize it, you can recognize it whenever it's used.

"Turn out", on the other hand, has half a dozen meanings and you have to rely on context.

In the extreme case, imagine explaining the word "the" to someone whose native language doesn't have an article.

<comment><USER5> > imagine explaining the word "the" to someone whose native language doesn't > have an article

Much like "turn out", there are many different ways in which "the" might be used. But as contrasted with "a" ("explain it to someone who doesn't have articles"), it's not that bad -- "the" is used to mark noun phrases that are already present in the conversational context, and "a" is used to introduce new noun phrases into the conversational context.

More generally, "the" and "a" are markers for what is known in linguistics as "definiteness", with "the" being an unspecialized definiteness marker and "a" being a more specialized indefiniteness marker. But there are many other determiners that require or mark definiteness -- possessives like _my_ and _their_ are definite; demonstratives like _this_ and _that_ are definite; _some_ is a fully general indefiniteness marker...

(Compare "there's some guy outside scaring customers away" with "there are some guys outside scaring customers away", then consider that _a_ would only be permissible in the first one.)

> To a foreign learner, easy words are hard, and hard words are easy.

Yep. I've pointed out before that most people have the instinct that when a foreigner doesn't know the language well, you should talk to them the same way you'd talk to a small child. But that's completely backwards. The typical small child only knows common words and can handle any native grammar at all. A foreigner will have trouble with common words, effortlessly comprehend rare words (after looking them up), and have extreme trouble with grammar beyond the basics.

I had a Chinese tutor once who was embarrassed when a rare word came up in some reading, and assured me that this was a "really fancy word" and it didn't matter if I didn't know it. The assurance was not needed -- at the time, my vocabulary was negligible; to me there was no difference between a really fancy word and its dirt-common equivalent. It's taken a lot of work to get to the point where I can be annoyed to encounter a fancy substitute for a word I feel I should have known.

<comment><USER6> > "the" is used to mark noun phrases that are already present in the > conversational context, and "a" is used to introduce new noun phrases into > the conversational context.

> (Compare "there's some guy outside scaring customers away" with "there are > some guys outside scaring customers away", then consider that a would only > be permissible in the first one.)

This rule is OK but it fails for the following case: A man you've never seen before runs into your office and says "The President is outside!" Now, the President wasn't part of your conversational context, in fact there was no conversational context, nor any context with the speaker. But "a President is outside!" is clearly wrong.

More generally, any attempt to give simple rules for this part of English grammar will fail, and will not generalize to other languages with articles. The rules of natural languages are extraordinarily complex, although we have the illusion that we can understand them explicitly. That's why rule-based NLP systems have always seemed attractive, and have always failed.

<comment><USER7> > any attempt to give simple rules for this part of English grammar will fail, > and will not generalize to other languages with articles

Can you elaborate? (Genuinely interested: I like languages, don't know much about NLP).

GP's explanation was just wrong, but articles are pretty well defined, easy to explain, and generalize well to other languages.

\- "The" (definite article) marks a noun that refers to a particular instance of the class designated by that noun, distinctly recognizable from other instances.

\- "A" (indefinite article) marks a noun that refers to a generic instance of the class that isn't explicitly recognizable among other instances.

<comment><USER4> Consider:

The Philippines

The United States

The Great Lakes

the poor

a means of production

a number of hamsters

 _the_ number of hamsters

a shirt, but a piece of garment, and a pair of pants

A lion chased him. (a particular lion)

A lion is a ferocious beast. (lions in general)

<comment><USER7> > The Philippines, The United States, The Great Lakes

I see nothing wrong? The Philippine (Islands). The United (States). The Great (Lakes).

> the poor

This is a challenge for NLP but only due to the ellipsis. "the poor (people)", where "people" is elided. I don't think most native speakers realize "poor" is an adjective here.

> a means of production

> a number of hamsters, the number of hamsters

> a shirt, but a piece of garment, and a pair of pants

Sorry, non-native speaker here. What do you mean?

<comment><USER4> > The Philippines, The United States, The Great Lakes

The point is that they are all names for a unique entity. There are no multiple Philippines - there's only one. Yet we should say "The Philippines", while we cannot say "The Switzerland."

Similarly, we aren't talking about "a particular group of united states among multiple such groups" \- for example, nobody calls Germany "The United States", even if it's made of many states.

> "the poor (people)", where "people" is elided.

The problem with this analysis is that "the poor people" can be used to mean "these particular group of poor people we are talking about", but "the poor" can't - it's not a definite group of people.

E.g., "I met those refugees on the road, so I asked the poor a few questions." (??)

> a shirt, but a piece of garment, and a pair of pants

I'm saying: why can't we say "a garment" or "a pants"? (Hmm maybe we can say "a garment"? I'm not sure.) Seriously, _a pants_ should be a thing: it's clearly one item. Has anyone ever seen someone wearing "a pant" (i.e., half a pair of pants)?

<comment><USER5> > why can't we say "a garment" or "a pants"? (Hmm maybe we can say "a > garment"? I'm not sure.)

You must say "a garment". "A piece of garment" is not grammatical English and never has been.

(The word garment itself, regardless of how you use it, is basically obsolete in modern English, though.)

<comment><USER4> Thanks for the correction. Should have sticked to a piece of furniture... :/

<comment><USER8> It would work as "a piece of cloth".

<comment><USER7> But that would still have nothing to do with "a piece of cloth" vs "the piece of cloth" which is still a meaningful difference :/

I'm more confused now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> > _In Icelandic, a compass is a direction-shower, and a microscope a small- > watcher._

In Latin, microscope is also "small-watcher", namely, _microscopium_.

<comment><USER10> In English "microscope" is "micro-scope", namely small-view.

I find it funny that many don't understand that this is how languages work, until they learn other languages. Especially with English, which is a bastardization of a lot of other languages. For example, if you learn French basically anything that is fancy in English is just the normal term in French (e.g. "house" -> "mansion" or "famous person" -> "celebrity")

<comment><USER11> Actually microscope (like most similar words eg telescope, periscope, endoscope etc) is borrowed from greek: μικροσκόπιο, which is generated from μικρό + σκοπέω meaning small + look at.

<comment><USER10> Actually.... we are saying the same thing. Scope comes from Greek. See here [0][1].

As we're speaking about language "actually" would conventionally be used in a manner to correct someone. This is why there's jokes like "Where does the mansplainer get their water? The well, actually". But in this case, you did not contradict me in any way. So instead you should say: "Specifically, microscope (like...) is borrowed from greek..." This would create a less contentious comment and still give the added value that you are trying to contribute.

[0] [https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/microscope](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/microscope)

[1] [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scope](https://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/scope)

<comment><USER11> Well as you can probably understand English is my second language (I am greek) so I didn't do that intentionally.

<comment><USER10> Then sorry for being passive aggressive. But hopefully this helps with some language nuance. Languages are difficult haha.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> What about an English version of Toki Pona? (maybe Eng-Toki Pona?)

Why? Because English is very common already, and it seems an easy way to not only have usable words in two languages (English and Eng-Toki Pona) but also it would be useful to actually learn. (foreigners could _actually_ use this for real)

This is the biggest hurdle I have with made up languages, they have very little actual utility value.

As an afterthought, a simple charades like game where you have the limited vocabulary on a board, card or print out where people have to describe an event,book/story, object, movie, etc... using Eng-Toki Pona. Everyone could do it right now (even kids), and learn a new language at the same time. (one of the easiest ways to learn something is by making it fun and a game)

Edit: A reverse of this - Japanese-Toki Pona, all the same words, but in Japanese. Same with every other language (Russian, German, French, etc...). Then, after you learn one Toki derivative, you can easily pick up others. I figure it's possible you could learn the choppy/odd sentence building technique in your native language, and then add other languages later. Could also be fun as a group game once the English version gets easy. And all of these would be useful everywhere... not just speaking with other Toki Pona speakers.

<comment><USER13> Most of Toki Pona sounds like English anyway:

wan: one

tu: two

meli: female, from Tok Pisin mewi, from "Mary" (as in, the Virgin)

lukin: looking

ale: all

en: and

ike: icky

jaki: yucky

insa: inside

jelo: yellow

kalama: clamor

kama: come

ken: can

kule: color

lape: sleepy

lawa: law

linja: line

lili: little

lupa: loop

mani: money

mu: moo

musi: amusing/music

nanpa: number

nimi: name

open: open

pilin: feeling

sama: same

selo: shell

sike: circle

suno: sun

mun: moon

toki: talking

wile: will

<comment><USER8> The only one of these that I think doesn't work is lupa, which is a hole or opening, which doesn't necessarily have that much in common with a loop. I guess they _could_ both be circular, but lupa applies to any kind of opening, circular or not.

<comment><USER14> Same origin as loophole (hole in a wall), which can also be any shape?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Here are some (IMO) silly/potentially interesting tech projects in the Toki Pona world:

\---

ilo nanpa - a calculator using the Toki Pona number system [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgWCLg4H_4U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgWCLg4H_4U)

\---

linja pona - a font for the Sitelen Pona hieroglyphic system with fancy character combination logic (goes way beyond the limits of my rudimentary font knowledge) - the text is all entered in latin but the font automatically converts toe Sitelen Pona (if you try copy/paste some text from the second site linked somewhere else you'll see it).

[https://github.com/davidar/linja-pona](https://github.com/davidar/linja-pona)

[https://davidar.github.io/tp/](https://davidar.github.io/tp/) a website made with it.

\---

I worked on a R-Pi based word processor computer thing with a custom keyboard/case/input system for the same writing system:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2nYoi2dAk4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2nYoi2dAk4)

(I ad enough time with quarantine to get it finished this week, but it's not properly documented anywhere yet ).

\---

There's also been a long-standing effort to get the language an ISO code ( [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona#History) ).

"In 2008 an application for an ISO 639-3 code was rejected, with a statement that the language was too young.[22] Another request was rejected in 2018 as the language "does not appear to be used in a variety of domains nor for communication within a community which includes all ages".[23]"

\---

For anyone interested in learning but too cheap/broke to get the official book ([http://tokipona.org](http://tokipona.org)), the next best thing (in my educated opinion) is the course of jan Pije: [http://tokipona.net/tp/janpije/okamasona.php](http://tokipona.net/tp/janpije/okamasona.php) .

<comment><USER16> > _goes way beyond the limits of my rudimentary font knowledge - the text is > all entered in latin but the font automatically converts toe Sitelen Pona_

It most likely utilizes ligatures—like when you write 'ff' or 'fi', the letters are joined into a custom glyph (in proper software and context), so this font does the same for custom longer sequences. This is popular lately with programming fonts and such.

<comment><USER15> Yip, it uses ligatures, but it also has a system where you can say put a box around text by using the underscore character w/ square braces ("[_mi_pilin]" has the "mi" and "pilin" characters with a cartouche around them, like on the second line of the linked page below), and also I think does dynamic compounding of characters (see the current complete character list here - [https://davidar.github.io/linja-pona/nimi](https://davidar.github.io/linja- pona/nimi) \- I haven't asked the author how they did it, but my guess is that there's something fun/dynamic going on).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I learned it last year as a fun excercise, and found it pretty interesting that there are so many things you can express with so few words.

However, in the end you'll end up wanting to express much more and the language is just not able to do that, you'll end up lost in the compounds, and things become unclear pretty quickly.

<comment><USER15> (long-time lurker here...)

Yip, there are definitely topics I butt into where I hit a wall too -_- . But with time I got much better at navigating them and have had several-hour-long conversations IRL as well as online using just Toki Pona (without resorting to compounds really - I don't know if it's what you're referring to, but compound phrases with fixed meaning aren't really in the spirit of the language). There are people online who I talk with regularly exclusively using Toki Pona.

<comment><USER18> It may not be a concisely expressive language, but I like that the small number of word units means it would be easier to use as an intermediary language than Esperanto.

Another practical step could be to identify a specific minimal set of language units required for any given popular nonconstructed language. Is this already a thing?

<comment><USER19> Yes, those units are called 'semantic primes/primitives': [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_primes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_primes)

<comment><USER18> Thank you for the reference.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It's funny that they only have 120 or so words, and one of them (pu) means "interacting with the official Toki Pona book."

</comment><comment><USER21> This concept is used heavily in ASL (American sign language).

Simple signs can be grouped to make other concepts.

There are conjugations or tenses -- explicit number and time are their own signs -- and articles and prepositions are usually dispensed with, much like headlines.

Example "teacher" is TEACH PERSON. Plural would be TEACH PEOPLE. Student is LEARN PERSON, etc. There are the equivalent of modifiers indicated by motion, facial expression, etc.

This sounds wordy but in practice the bit rate is about the same as spoken because some signs stand in for multiple things, plus the omissions and modifiers as above are meaning multipliers.

</comment><comment><USER22> Check out this tokenizer for it as well: [https://github.com/Xe/x/blob/master/web/tokiponatokens/toki_...](https://github.com/Xe/x/blob/master/web/tokiponatokens/toki_pona.go)

<comment><USER23> I used this for recompiling a subset of toki pona to a subset of prolog: [https://github.com/Xe/x/tree/master/cmd/la- baujmi](https://github.com/Xe/x/tree/master/cmd/la-baujmi). This is something I wish I had more time/effort to develop out more.

<comment><USER22> Your blog has been a really exciting corner of the internet for me the past couple months. Thank you, big fan, keep doin what you're doin.

<comment><USER23> Thanks! I'm working on a blogpost analyzing the speed gains I got by porting my webassembly environment to Rust. So far it's about 50x as fast on average, but most of the gain is from using an ahead-of-time compiler instead of an interpreter.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> It feels like taking a picture and converting it to the lowest image format. Even if you know what was there previously, it's impossible to convert it back to a meaningful piece of information.

<comment><USER15> Trying to interpret sentences out of context in Toki Pona is indeed tricky!

However, "sina wile ala wile moku e telo pimeja?" (Do you want to eat black water?) can be quite accurately reconstructed as "do you want a coffee?" if you know it was said outside of a cafe.

With a given context that you can refer to (in a cafe, walking in the park, cooking food), the expressive power/range of reference of 120 words is vastly greater than, say, in a letter to a stranger. This is probably one reason why the meme community in Toki Pona is reasonably lively ( [https://www.reddit.com/r/mi_lon/](https://www.reddit.com/r/mi_lon/) ).

I don't know how you extend that metaphor to image-decompression though! (I guess if you know you're decompressing a picture of a face you can train your decompresser on other picture of faces first :) ).

<comment><USER16> > To view posts in r/mi_lon you must continue in Reddit app or log in.

Ah, here's some new ugly stuff by Reddit.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Everyone should spend at least some time learning about ancient languages, such as Latin and Greek. If you do, you'll understand that all languages were originally like that, with very few words. The profusion of vocabulary we have nowadays were formed from a small kernel that was enriched with numerous suffixes, prefixes, and the combination of two or more words. For example, as we are closer to Latin, it is useful to learn prefixes such as "ex", "ab", "co", "pre", etc., and how they are used to form thousands of new words from latin origin.

<comment><USER8> I've spent some time doing that, as well as learning Toki Pona, and it doesn't seem to me that they're very similar. Latin and Greek have attested vocabularies of thousands of words, many of which have a super-specific meaning and aren't analyzable as compounds. Just one example is that they both have words for specific plant and animal species, which Toki Pona doesn't.

I agree that learning ancient languages and prefixes produces amazing results for our understanding of modern languages that are related to them and is a great idea. :-)

I especially don't think that ancient language speakers felt that, just because they had productive prefixes like our re- or un-, they could always describe concepts with combinations of a few existing morphemes instead of inventing new ones or borrowing them from other languages. Also, even the ancient language speakers didn't understand the etymology or structure of their own languages very well; some borrowings and compounds were already opaque to them!

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> It's weird to see so many words that I already "know" from the Tokipona language just because I'm Finnish and lived a few years in Poland. The words in Tokipona have of course a "wider scope" in their meaning, but here's a few I spotted scrolling through a Tokipona dictionary [1]:

"Kala" is a fish both in Finnish and Tokipona, "nena" is a nose in Tokipona which is "nenä" in Finnish, "sina" (you) is "sinä" in Finnish, "nimi" (name) is the same in both languages, "noka" (leg) is "noga" in Polish, "ona" (she) is the same in Polish. There's more that I'm easily able to remember like "linja" (line in Finnish) which has a similar meaning in Tokipona, not to mention numbers like "wan" and "tu" and words like "mama" (mom) and "mani" (money) etc.

[1] [http://tokipona.net/tp/janpije/dictionary.php](http://tokipona.net/tp/janpije/dictionary.php)

<comment><USER27> I'm currently wondering if learning a "toy" language would help me learn a real language, in my case Finnish.

<comment><USER26> I'm pretty sure the best way is just to jump straight into Finnish, no point of getting confused by other languages or even toy languages.

If you don't speak any other language than English (your website says you're Scottish) there's some positives in that also as you will have a strong place in your brain for Finnish as that "other language" and you won't freeze so easily when you must speak it. What I'm trying to say is that I at least find myself very often "frozen" when having a conversation in a language in which my level is similar to another language. Polish and Spanish are both languages that I'm able to survive with but if I'm looking for the word e.g. for "Saturday" in Polish I might suddenly find myself stuck in the Spanish word for it. Add Swedish to the confusion and I might as well give up and hope to be understood in English, which is also not my first language, but at least I have a much more strong grasp of it than other languages (except Finnish) so that it isn't subject to the confusion most of the time. YMMV but I hope you get the point and maybe even find some encouragement in it to just start learning Finnish straight away.

Also, since you are Scottish you might already be able to roll your R's and pronounce the letters "ä" and "ö" the "Finnish way" since at least some Scottish accents have those "sounds", which is not the case for e.g. Australian, North American or Southern English accents.

Let me know if you want a Finn to talk to and I'll shoot you an email. ;)

<comment><USER27> Yeah my biggest problem is making the effort and having the practice of learning vocabulary.

(Well the grammar is my biggest problem too, but everybody struggles with that when learning Finnish. It is very regular, and drilling in a classroom is easy "minä olen", "sinä olet", "han on" is very easy. But doing that in real-time when trying to form a sentence is way harder.)

I can manage the rolling Rs, and I can almost say Töölö properly, but I need to concentrate and remember! Until recently I'd been coasting because I was working in English-speaking offices. I suspect now I'm looking for another devops/sysadmin/developer job I should not limit myself to English-only offices, but I'm not sure how realistic that is. It doesn't help when I go to shops and people greet me in English!

I appreciate your kind offer, thank-you. For the moment I'll pass. I need to talk more to my wife and neighbours! (We've been told that I MUST not speak Finnish near our child, and keep the separation near total until he's older. Right now I speak English to our three-year old, and my wife speaks Finnish. He'll understand and reply in the appropriate language to each parent. That's pretty awesome and I'm lucky that I can understand at least 85% of what he says. Though sometimes I have to ask him to translate when he uses words I don't know talking to his mother!)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> 2015: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9914534](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9914534)

2016: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11153406](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11153406)

2017: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14191186](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14191186)

(Links for the curious. Reposts are ok after a year: [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html))

</comment><comment><USER29> I'm not sure how well this works in practice. Unless you already know a horse is a wonder dog and a hippopotamus is a water horse, when someone says "river wonder dog" will you know what he means?

<comment><USER30> Others address that this is not uncommon in languages, nor is it unhelpful even if you don't know.

But for a different counterpoint, lets say we gave a specific name to everything. For example, in my new, totally not-fake language, a hippo is a klantomolarnal.

Unless you already know a hippopotamus is a klantomolarnal, when someone says klantomolarnal, will you know what he means?

So, if our options are:

1) colloquial compound words that are informative but inexact and may require context (most languages) 2) unique words for everything with no intrinsic meaning (no language) 3) compound words that uniquely describe a thing (ithkuil, lojban, basically nothing useable)

It seems clear that (1) is our only real option. Toki Pona just has a harder time because of the smaller shared vocabulary which makes things more ambiguous.

In my limited experience, context clears things up _tremendously_.

(incoming rusty toki pona)

o sina lukin e ni! // Look at that!

o sina lukin e telo suli soweli! // Look at that big, water mammal [hippopotamus]!

<comment><USER31> Your second sentence would probably be "o sina lukin e soweli suli pi telo". what you wrote is more like "big animal water".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> For a humorous taste of a limited language, without venturing outside of English, Randall Munroe (the XKCD guy) has a book called, "Thing Explainer", that's a sort of encyclopedia written using only the 1,000 most common words in English.

<comment><USER33> AFAIK the first edition of the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English (LDOCE), which "uses 2000 common words in the definitions to make understanding easy", was published in 1978.

[https://www.ldoceonline.com/about.html](https://www.ldoceonline.com/about.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> Good. Ten times ten speak English also good?

;)

In other words, it's a cute experiment.

<comment><USER35> "If this end of the ship is pointed toward space, you have a huge problem and will not go to space today."

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> I like the idea of a very small language and I think it may be very useful for science and technology, but Toki Pona does not fit the requirements. Eg: it lacks words to express numbers.

Lojban looks interesting for this purpose, but it's way too complicated.

</comment><comment><USER37> As a student of Japanese, I often get confused when listening to Japanese because there are so few sounds and therefore many homonyms.

This gave me the idea of a language with only two sounds, "ku" and "ka", being used to express everything. Sort of an analogue to the idea of encoding everything using the binary digits of zero and one.

kakakukukakakukukukuka, as the great philosopher once said.

<comment><USER38> Let's make that into a complete language:

ka := the S combinator

ku := the K combinator

Done. Now kakuku is as expressive as any other Turing-complete language.

( [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus) )

</comment></comment><comment> miles-po doubleplus-good

<comment><USER39> Exactly. Is "kute pona" somebody who is good at listening, or somebody who is obedient? Like (Ingsoc) Newspeak, Toki Pona's poor vocabulary and overloaded semantics lead to a very simple and incurious language perfect for shrinking peoples' minds.

<comment><USER23> Sed esperanto estas la lingvo kiu inspiris Ingsoc de Newspeak. Esperanto ne havas vorton por "bad"; esperanto havas malbona, aux "ungood". Simile maljuna por "old" ("not-young") kaj malgranda por "small" ("not-big").

<comment><USER39> Sure; the Ranto [0] explains why this is a poor way to build a language.

[0] [http://jbr.me.uk/ranto/index.html](http://jbr.me.uk/ranto/index.html)

<comment><USER23> Sed facila. Nenio malhelpas vin uzi vortoj sxati "vieila" (de la ina formo de la franca por maljuna) por "maljuna", sed multoj parolantoj de esperanto eble komprenos.

Lojbano probable havas sistemo por vortoj tiel. Vortoj havas multojn lokojn en la "loko strukturo" de la vorto. La vorto por iri estas {klama}, difinita kiel:

{x1 venas/iras al celita loko x2 el deirpunkto x3 tra vojo x4 per rimedo/veturilo x5}

{lo klama} estas la viro de iri

{lo se klama} estas la celita loko

{lo te klama} estas la deirpunkto

{lo ve klama} estas la vojo de vojagxi

{lo xe klama} estas la ilo de iri aux la veturilo

Multoj lokojn por substantivoj signifas tion {klama} estas kvin vortojn!

Sed Lojbano havas la senvoĉan veluran frikativon (/x/ en la IPA aux "kh" en araba). Estas malfacila por anglalingvanoj.

<comment><USER39> u'i coi nintadni .i xu jbobau

lo jbobau ku bridi bangu .i lo ka klama ku selbri .i pe'i drata lo glibau .a lo sperybau lo ka bangu

ku'icu'i zo'oi "good" jbobau se smuni fi mi lo ka xamgu ku .a lo ka vrudi ku .a lo ka zabna ku .a lo ka to'e xlali ku ...i xu ma drani smuni?

u'i di'ai

<comment><USER40> O petiti piska meden giganti sakun.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> semi related ( and work in progress): [https://concepts.jtoy.net](https://concepts.jtoy.net)</comment>