Why Linux sucks and will never compete with Windows or OS X - <AUTHOR> http://www.dvorak.org/blog/2016/02/25/why-linux-sucks-and-will-never-compete-with-windows-or-osx/ <comment><USER2> This is a poor rant. You never managed to change the terminal in grub? You couldn't change the background in KDE? These are PICNIC problems. It seems like you're frustrated about a lot of things, which is understandable, linux desktop is very far from perfect. You're also sticking with a distro that's essentially for enterprise server use. Throw that in with a few questionable practices (30 terminals windows?) then yes, I can see why you're not very happy. It seems like you're just taking out _your_ frustration on the linux desktop experience. I finally binned off windows in the last bastion it had in my personal life about 6 months ago (laptop) and it's been great. YMMV.

<comment><USER3> with nvidia you can have either but not both of:

* proper resolution grub

* proprietary (fast, feature complete) drivers

due to the nvidia drivers not supporting fbdev properly (AFAIK).

also you should see how slowly grub draws its menu on 4k resolution. My whole system is booted half way in that time.

<comment><USER4> And I guess of course "proper resolution grub" is of paramount importance given the time you spend inside grub every day.

<comment><USER5> At least on my system, the Linux terminal is displayed in the resolution set by grub on boot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I switched recently from Windows 10 to Ubuntu 16 at home (I use a Mac at work). Here has been my experience:

* Audio works perfect (Astro mixamp)

* Video works perfect (NVidia)

* Installed several games on Steam

      * TF2, CS, Factorio, Kerbal, etc all run great

      * Rust is laggy, however is alpha, I am not sure how much time they have spent optimizing linux at this point

* XBox 360 controller works perfect

* GnuCash wouldn't open the file saved from the windows version

      * Installed a sqlite lib to resolve this

* TrueCrypt volume mounts OK

* A few sites fail to detect Chromium properly, I use FF to work around this

* Crashplan backups work without issues

* Cisco VPN client works great

* Remote desktop software works OK

The development experience on Linux is a lot better. You get a nice shell, package manager, and compilers. Docker containers launch very quickly. No more windows path limits. Unity has grown on me as well. I couldn't be happier with my choice right now.

<comment><USER7> Not necessarily that important, but Ubuntu's versioning scheme doesn't work the way you think it does.

It's <year>.<month> and they release a new version almost always in April and in October, meaning that the past few Ubuntu versions were 14.04, 14.10, 15.04, 15.10 and now 16.04, which is what you're running.

They then have the usual dot-releases appended to that, so you're probably actually running 16.04.1, the first revision of 16.04.

So, yeah, you would usually say that you're running "16.04", not just "16", as 16.10 will be a completely different version, again...

<comment><USER6> I am aware. Thanks for the detailed response though.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Vim/Emacs will suck too if you come from Textmate/Visual Studio and spend 15min poking around.

With a serious time investment I've managed to assemble a system that far surpasses OSX in usability, performance, and aesthetics (see /r/unixporn). I also bought a laptop with Linux in mind with 100% driver support in the kernel.

It wasn't easy learning to use ArchLinux, customizing it, learning how to not break it [1], and finding the right combination of window managers/desktop env/themes/fonts/etc. But it was worth it because I like hacking on systems and learning how they work. Plus I spend all day, every workday on it.

[1] my install has become very low maintenance now that I no longer feel the need to spend hours tweaking every detail, I now know which /etc/ or /usr/ files not to mess with, and have hardware and software that is well supported across every ArchLinux update.

<comment><USER9> Mind sharing what window manager/desktop env/etc. you're using?

<comment><USER8> bspwm tiling window manager

sxhkd managing keyboard shortcuts

xmobar statusbar

Gnome/GTK 3.x with built-in dark theme

Rofi app launcher and window switcher (like Alfred on OSX)

Termite terminal with ZSH

Not using a display manager like GDM or XDM, I just run startx via .zlogin

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The author^W site's host is a notorious troll who is about as reliable as a broken clock.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=macalope+john+dvorak+site:ma...](https://www.google.com/search?q=macalope+john+dvorak+site:macworld.com)

[https://www.google.com/search?q=john+dvorak+site:daringfireb...](https://www.google.com/search?q=john+dvorak+site:daringfireball.net)

Edit: s/author/site's host/

<comment><USER11> John Dvorak may or may not be a notorious troll, and he may or may not be as reliable as a broken clock. But there's one thing that I can say for sure, and it's that John Dvorak isn't the author of this article.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Thanks god HN is full of people valuing privacy and freedom otherwise a lot of you guys would use macos or windows. /s

But don't worry, it's the fault of the average user if we have mass surveillance, if only they cared enough to avoid proprietary software...

<comment><USER13> you'll get downvoted to oblivion for this post. The only thing HN hates more than people talking about proprietary software promoting mass surveillance, is people talking about how _it 's their fault_ for using proprietary software that promotes mass surveillance.

me? I have karma to burn, so I worry less about being greyed-out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Most of my Linux use for the last several years has been terminal only, so I am way out of touch with how GUI Linux has improved. How is the desktop nowadays? In particular, how is it as far as consistency among programs goes?

For instance, here is a screenshot I took in 2003 showing several the file open dialogs from several different programs: [http://i.imgur.com/Wcwaiwu.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/Wcwaiwu.jpg)

Note that there is almost no consistency between these dialogs. That's because the file open dialog that a program presented was determined by what GUI toolkit the developer picked to use to develop their program.

Compare to Mac and Windows, where file selection dialogs are part of the system, and so almost all applications use them.

People tried to tell me the Linux way was better, because it means the OS vendor wasn't forcing their choice on everyone. Cool...I like choice, but how about putting the choice in the hands of the user, rather than the individual app developers (or rather the GUI toolkit developers)?

It seems to me that the right way to do this is for the system to provide a standardized API for file selection, and provide a way to register multiple implementations, and to provide a way for a user to tell the system which implementation they prefer in general and perhaps for specific programs.

Each toolkit could continue to provide its own implementations of file selection dialogs, but could register those with the system, and access them via the standard API so that if the user prefers the dialogs from a different toolkit the user gets their preferred dialog.

</comment><comment><USER15> I think I ran into this guy on freenode, he was hanging out in #windows and kept talking about "bringing back the year of linux".

Linux is ready for prime time, and is getting better every year. Microsoft is struggling to maintain it's market share of the OS market which it used to dominate without any trouble, so the article is nonsense, really.

Windows is not more user friendly than a modern Ubuntu or Debian installation. What's actually happened is that users have become familiar with the various Quirks of operating Windows, the same way they would become familiar with any OS after years of use, including Linux.

</comment><comment><USER3> Here my reasons to hate linux:

* something (guessing nvidia driver) prevents resume from suspend to ram, the machine just sits with a black screen. I have to hard reset

* if you install nvidia from their blob and upgrade your kernel without recompiling the kernel module, it won't let you shut down and one of the cpu cores will lock up

* I tried to use the usb3 hub in my dell monitor and the driver complains about too little bandwidth. forums tell me to disable xhci in the kernel config or bios, I just plugged it into a usb2 port

* I wish there was an easier way to update the kernel with custom options, like automated re-compiling

* I have a usb key with kubuntu that I sometimes boot my macbook air with. Even with not a lot going on, it will get a lot hotter than osx. can the usb3 controller running the boot drive really add that much?

* good luck unmounting a nfs mount that is slow due to network/vpn issues. there is a workaround in creating a dummy network that looks like the nfs server is up and which somehow unclogs the filesystem.

* why can't gvim maximize properly after how many years?

* no netflix or hbo unless you install some deprecated HAL library from untrusted sources

* cannot tell apt to only update specific packages from some repo - adding the spotify repo could replace god knows what on your system

* I love kde plasma, it is what made me try linux as my default boot option again, but why does it have to consume so much ram and why does it crash so often? Thank god it can just be restarted easily, I hope this will still be possible with wayland which promotes integrated window managers

edit:

* under X and highdpi, there is now way to resize applications that use a framework that is not high dpi capable. skype, using Qt 4.8 (IIRC) will have tiny text or icons. (I think you can make it draw text larger, but graphic elements and emoji will be tiny)

I should also say that I really like linux, especially as a work environment. with QtCreator there is a free IDE with auto complete, syntax highlighting, cmake support, cross compilation, etc.

I feel like the *nix/gnu tools are so much more powerful and I would not want to miss them.

batch-converting videos, images, splitting, joining, creating pdfs - all for free without having to install SuperImageConverterPro shareware bundled with bonzi buddy or whatever.

<comment><USER16> > Even with not a lot going on, it will get a lot hotter than osx. can the > usb3 controller running the boot drive really add that much?

This is almost certainly because Linux doesn't properly manage your CPU states. Same story with linux on my windows laptop. Apparently you can recompile the kernel with some third party modules that let you manage that stuff but after a few hours of trying I couldn't get it to work. Probably because there isn't any documentation beyond a couple stack overflow questions and a blog post written in 2011.

I hate linux too. My biggest gripe is that I use differing amounts of monitors and making the nvidia proprietary drivers function correctly with xmonad and multiple screens is something I've managed to make work maybe twice.

<comment><USER8> When was the last time you tried to do that multi monitor setup? I heard it got better recently.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Windows and OSX are products, and Linux is more like a free commodity. It's great to use it at scale because you save a shit ton of money on licensing fees, but not great for end users. Getting end users to use Linux is like asking drivers to buy barrels of crude and tell them to refine it to use gas.

<comment><USER18> I agree and I use Linux everyday (and Windows).

For the typical desktop user, we have to ask what the intent of usage is. Running a business with proprietary software and licensing, typing up documents for personal financial planning, playing games.

Linux has never been consistent with so many flavors of the day out there, but generally it is a heck of a Swiss Army knife when it comes to solving problems for me at least.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> let's get something straight here.

Linux sucks implies the is something you don't agree with about Linux which is a kernel.

Complaining about GNOME and CentOS are vastly different. Why not say GNOME sucks or CentOS's distribution sucks?

<comment><USER13> Dvorak knows that he'd have less clicks if he took your advice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I basically became fed up with Windows 10 deciding everything for my device. When to update, what apps to use, nag me about Microsoft services. Monitor how I use my device. Sadly after decades of Windows loyalty I moved on to Linux. Never a stranger to Linux but until now it was just a hobby OS I chose when I had a older device sitting around. Now, it's on my two main PC's a desktop and a newer Dell laptop and without issues Linux Ubuntu installed perfectly on both. The helpful compatibility lists with Ubuntu gave me confidence my hardware would work with a specific distro. I certainly have become disenchanted with Windows 10 and Microsoft. A company that appears bent on controlling your device in an attempt at marketing their software and services and also selling your information and providing you with unwanted advertising and using Windows 10 as a conduit for this. Sorry Microsoft, that's not what I believe a OS should be doing.

</comment><comment><USER21> > In many ways the Internet was better 15 years ago when you could get free > music on Napster and you could get laid on Craigslist.

I kinda get the point but that is a horrible example. Craigslist is probably one of the few things that works (and looks) exactly as it works before. Whether you get laid on it has hardly anything to do with software quality.

</comment><comment><USER22> This is the most assinine piece of garbage I've ever read.. I'm by no means a linux pro -- having used it off and on for ten years, and only ditched windows completely 3 years ago -- BUT it BLOWS windows and apple away because of it's open source community. Sure there can be driver issues sometimes, but if you try enough things you can usually get that solved. -- if not then get a better graphics card that's geared specifically for Linux Nvideo is usually better than AMD/ATI (regretfully I have a ati Radeon 270x ) - but the AMDGPU drivers that just came out seem to have fixed most of my issues.

If you don't like gnome or kde don't use them -- I abhor both.. I've installed kubuntu, ubuntu, xubuntu, lxde, and other flavors on top of my existing system only to uninstall them all and go with i3 which is much sleeker, more customizable, just works, and doesn't bloat my system.

I spend 90% of my day in console or sublime-text I only keep xfce around for when I want a visual app manager instead of alt+d and a gui settings manager to fix mouse issues or what not. Since switching to i3 my computer never freezes anymore like it used to, and hardly ever touch the mouse unless in browser.

Centos is more for server work not desktop crap anyways, ubuntu is the best for desktop - or possibly Arch, driver support is generally better for ubuntu kernels but Arch has a vibrant community around it, and when I reformat or build a new p.c. I'm probably switching to Arch + i3.

</comment><comment><USER23> I just bought a new laptop (GE62 6QD MSI Apache Pro), and I spent the last few days trying to get Ubuntu 16 to run on it. I'm in pretty good shape now, but there are still issues with the microphone and camera (I wrote about the process here [http://blog.robertelder.org/installing-ubuntu-16-linux- ge62-...](http://blog.robertelder.org/installing-ubuntu-16-linux-ge62-6qd- apache-pro-msi-notebook/)). I've only installed Ubuntu/Linux on a few different laptops, but the process does seem to be getting worse the few times I've done it. The worst part tends to be getting the video cards and wifi to work.

It really makes me wonder what the future will be like. Will we reach a breaking point where someone (or some group) takes on the responsibility of making this stuff work? I can't see people abandoning Linux for Windows, because Windows seems to be decreasing in quality as well. Are we doomed to just have computers that don't work properly?

<comment><USER21> I had sort of different experience. I guess it heavily depends on what hardware you have. I installed ubuntu in an Asus laptop with the Nvidia/Optimus thingy. The optimus thing did not work but I can't really tell a difference because there is no AAA games in Linux; but at least on first boot it renders the desktop in native resolution.

I also reinstalled Windows 7 in the same laptop later to play SC, it supposed to be working great, but did not. I had to hunt wifi drivers from the laptop maker in a different machine and copy over, then hunt down the video driver because it is stuck in 800x600 otherwise. Same thing basically applies to every hardware you use. It used to be you have to install a driver for the mobo to get usb3 working at high speed.

So I really wonder if Windows should take the credit of "things just work" it's not like they wrote all the drivers.

<comment><USER24> Wrt optimus, have you tried bumblebee?

[http://bumblebee-project.org/](http://bumblebee-project.org/)

[https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/bumblebee](https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/bumblebee)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> At this point I think Android/Chromebook hybrid has a bigger shot of becoming a Linux Desktop than anything the actual Linux community has put out.

The Linux Kernel and UNIX underpinning are solid as a rock. No issues there, but everything built on top of that (windowing systems, application frameworks, audio stack, etc) is a jumbled mess of incompatible ideas, poor usability, inconsistency, and low performance (in exchange for features nobody is using, like windowing client<->server over a network, replacing core UI components on the fly, etc).

I really like MacOS, Windows 10, and even Chromebook (with all its limitations), but I've never found a Linux desktop solution that feels self- consistent and not frustrating. I'd likely take Chromebook more seriously if it can run the full Android back-catalogue of apps.

Just to be clear I run dozens of Linux servers and devices. This isn't a Linux "hate" thing, this is only a distaste for Linux Desktop, not Linux the OS or Kernel, both of which are fantastic.

<comment><USER13> Install GalliumOS[0] on a chromebook. You'll be shocked by how much more you enjoy it than ChromeOS or MacOS.

0\. [https://galliumos.org](https://galliumos.org)

<comment><USER26> Any advantages over Xubuntu on a standard laptop, aside from chromebooks being inexpensive?

<comment><USER13> Most of what Gallium does is polish the distro for Chromebooks. everything Just Works without tweaking or otherwise. Getting a chromebook touchpad to work under Xubuntu requires a kernel patch and a recompile (2 years later, and the drivers haven't been merged upstream yet), as well as fixing the power button and other keyboard settings. I've personally applied all his changes from his github repositories on my fleet of Gentoo-running chromebooks, and it was pretty substantial.

but if you don't have a Chromebook, you won't see the same need for GalliumOS. just use Xubuntu (unless you like the branding).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Oh, it competes and outshines if you are just comparing OS. Linux even had all the great compiz wobbly windows and other stuff way before windows vista or win 7 had any bling. Oh and it handles all that easily in tiny amount of ram compared to what ginormous amounts of ram windows needs for doing so little. It doesn't bother me with updates in the middle of my work or stop the world even if I decide to update. I don't have to restart computer to use that update unless its kernel update. Best bit is that I dont have to keep an eye on how much data my Linux Os uses. It never caused me over charges when I was using mobile data instead of hogging it all up like windows for I donno what. You might say it doesn't have as much applications or games. But that is not OS. Windows has majority share only because it has someone to push it aggressively via huge marketing and recently via many dark patterns. I can go on and on omg

</comment><comment><USER28> Sad part is he is right. The last good KDE was 3.x, since then KDE, Gnome, and their collaborators at Freedesktop and Xorg, have been busy chasing the lastest eyecandy, in the process building something that makes Vista look sane.

<comment><USER8> I love the way that Gnome looks in recent updates. Gnome 3 started off rocky but by 3.12 it started to get very refined and highly usable.

Plus you can use Gnome with tiling window managers, so it's just being used to style windows and apps.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> How to change the wallpaper on KDE: Right-click on desktop->Click "Desktop Settings"->Select a wallpaper->Click "Apply".

</comment><comment><USER13> John Dvorak, classic troll, is using CentOS and wondering why it sucks on the desktop in the same ways Windows Server sucks on the desktop.

Meanwhile, sane people abandoned rpm-based distributions around 2001, because they know that using Fedora/CentOS/RHEL leads to Having a Bad Time (TM).

There is an unwritten rule in Linux: Distributions jump the shark eventually. At one point, everyone was using Yggdrasil. Then they were using Redhat (or slackware) when Yggdrasil petered-out. Then Mandrake became popular when people got tired of Redhat's old packages. Then Ubuntu appeared when someone made Debian user-friendly. Once Ubuntu started the whole Unity mess (and later, systemd), we got our newer crops of good distributions.

If you don't care about systemd, Manjaro and Antergos are fantstic desktop distributions. If you think systemd is cancerous, Calculate Linux will make you happy in ways you haven't felt since 2006. If you have a fleet of chromebooks, GalliumOS will make your life better.

Just stop using/complaining about CentOS or Ubuntu, people.

<comment><USER29> Just curious, what's so bad about CentOS? (Aside from not really being intended for desktop use.)

<comment><USER13> every CentOS install I've ever had always felt like a house of cards just waiting for the wind to blow the wrong direction and knock everything down. Especially if you install asterisk/freePBX or yate on top of a base install, wherein a yum update will likely break things in subtle ways. This isn't just limited to CentOS (all RPM-based distros have this problem eventually), but it's the one most people experience the pain points from.

Now that CentOS was purchased by Red Hat, should you be desperate for rpm- compatibility (Government contracts, Pointy-Haired Bosses' demands), Scientific Linux is a better option.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Funny thing is, some Linux distros are already more Windows than Windows itself (has become)

Many of my older family members prefer Linux Mint to Windows. Also, most Browsers and Office Software are already cross OS, so they even get the same stuff they know from Windows.

I simply prefer it for development.

</comment><comment><USER31> "I used to have the illusion that software was supposed to get better over time."

Well there you go. That's the author's problem. He's caught up in an all-too- common delusion. Of course software gets worse with time. The only counterexample I have is Apache and some CLI tools. I literally cannot think of any other software that has not declined significantly given enough time and features. Whether the product manager wants to add some stupid little widget users will hate, the designer wants to redesign a perfectly good UI into a monstrosity, or the programmer wants to rewrite perfectly good code into a pile of bugs, it is almost a law of nature that software quality will degrade. You can even trace the causes of the author's gripes to one of the above reasons.

<comment><USER32> Yeah, I feel this is often so true, perhaps I'm a little less pessimistic, but not much. The best way I'd visualise it for FOSS is that it's sort of an oscillating walk upwards (over time) to improvement - though any set of changes could set you back or forward. Then, the big thing that hits (and where you're "decline significantly") happens is that there's some a) change of fashion (lets re-do it with trendy new language/framework etc), b) change contributors which leads to "lets do version 3.0" or the darn thing dies out!

I've often wondered why the 'classics' such as CLI tools seem to be resistant to this. I suspect that over time users just learn to live with the "bugs" and don't expect any further changes: from a time when "being 1.0" meant it was complete!

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Well, desktop and desktop apps on linux do suck mightily. By and large, Linux application developers just don't care. The term CADT comes to mind whenever people bring this up.

</comment><comment><USER4> Personally I cannot live without the xmonad window manager, and for this only I would stick with linux - ever tried to replace the window manager on windows or os X?

EDIT: typo

</comment><comment><USER34> Everyone loves open source. But truth has to be spoken out loud. Very Very Well said

</comment><comment><USER35> Hate to be a hater too but this is pretty spot on. I too have been a Linux user since forever... 1993 to be precise.

Linux is getting worse in certain respects on the server too, mostly due to the complexity explosion of systemd and its ilk and a complete lack of attempts to actually _fix_ problems rather than piling on work-around after work-around after work-around.

SysV init was a nasty pile of arcane cruft, and to replace it the systemd crew somehow managed to engineer something _more_ obtuse and arcane. That's an accomplishment I suppose. The whole thing feels "enterprise" from start to finish: awful counter-intuitive UX, monolithic, over-engineered, and I bet it completely destroys any hope of creating a Linux system hardened against local privilege escalation attacks.

Docker is brilliant satire in software form. It's fantastic and very useful, but for reasons that all relate to fundamental shortcomings and impedance mismatches in the core OS. Someone literally threw their hands up and said "F it lets just tar up Linux distributions and treat them like giant statically linked binaries!" and someone else said "wait... that's actually not a bad idea!" and here we are. It's a prank taken to production at scale, and the fact that it is so useful is a deep indictment of the whole ecosystem. If your roof leaks a tarp is useful too.

I've said it many times and I'll say it again: it is _harder_ to make something simple than to make something complex. It require more effort, more knowledge, and more intelligence. Arcane or complex designs are a sign of inferior engineering.

Finally, there are _far too many distributions_. It makes shipping software for Linux a nightmare. The only reason anyone should ever create a distribution is to customize things for a specialized use case (e.g. embedded) or to explore some fundamentally novel approach to solving the problems outlined above (e.g. the Guix package manager, GoboLinux). Creating another distribution that is fundamentally just like all the others with the same essential approach to packaging and management and the like is needless fragmentation that only multiplies the effort required for every developer to target the platform.

On the 'meta' level: I think it's clear at this point that some of the classic assumptions of the FOSS community and especially the Linux wing of that community are wrong. Among these are Eric Raymond's whole thesis in "The Cathedral and the Bazaar." The reality seems to be more like "The Cathedral and the Mess."

... and JWZ is still right: [https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html](https://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html)

<comment><USER13> linux user since 1998. systemd is a cancer. However, you might like OpenRC or runit (Calculate Linux or Void Linux are your friends).

As for distributions, we as seasoned linux users have to take the initiative to adopt and popularize new distributions, the way we adopted Ubuntu en masse in 2006 out of nowhere. GalliumOS for chromebooks, Calculate Linux for laptops/desktops, and Void Linux (or gentoo hardened) for servers. When newbies ask for advice, we are doing them a disservice by suggesting Ubuntu or debian-based derivatives, despite the availability of binaries for everything, for the same reason that people suggesting RPM-based derivatives (Red Hat, CentOS, Fedora) were doing a disservice to newbies.

My 13yo daughter can get through a Calculate Linux, Manjaro, or Antergos install (though she needs help replacing systemd with OpenRC on the last two). Let's start promoting the new good distributions, now that the old ones have jumped the shark.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Sadly, as a front-end developer I can't move out of OS X these days.

I need Sketch / Photoshop for my work and a retina display.

</comment><comment><USER37> > The KDE was the shortest test. I spen an hour just rying to change the > wallpaper and gave up. (sic)

[http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+change+kde+wallpaper&l=1](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+change+kde+wallpaper&l=1)

* Edit after down votes: Sarcasm is specially regarded as negative behavior in HN, but negativeness for negativeness, this article shouldn't even be here. It's filled with destructive criticism and unjustified claims. I'd accept the wallpaper argument from any person who hardly sits in front of a computer, not from someone whose primary occupation is to write about technology, not from someone who's been using Linux for 20 years (first thing to do? check man pages, do your research). I understand the down votes, but seriously, this article only makes me angry - maybe that's why John Dvorak is widely regarded as a troll.

<comment><USER3> kubuntu 16.04: right click, desktop settings, wallpaper is already selected. Is Mint doing something weird?</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to retain users for a one-time use app? - <AUTHOR> Hello everyone,
I recently launched a side project I've been working on, while it gets between 500-1000 users per week who actually do use it, it struggles with retention which makes sense since there's only one feature which gives a result back and you have no more use for the app. I get anywhere between 2-7% of users come back the next day and it quickly drops on days 2+.
I'm trying to figure out how to proceed building it. I've asked users for feedback on what they would like to see, but I didn't get any strong response. So I was wondering if anyone has examples of these kinds of apps which were able to grow and retain users and what they did to achieve the growth ?
Thanks. <comment><USER2> What does the app do? Your name would imply that it measures some aspect of their face, I'm assuming for something either cosmetic or just diagnostic, telling them what "face archetype" they have...

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, it tells them which face shape they have.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> build services/features around your core feature like [https://www.speedtest.net/](https://www.speedtest.net/)

you could also use the same technology skills here and move the same features to another domain

<comment><AUTHOR> That's actually a great example, thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Charge more for it so you can be profitable despite users only needing your app once?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm not charging anything. I'd rather keep building it so that it's more useful to related activities, but not sure how to go about it.</comment></comment>


Show HN: My NBA + Twitter mashup - <AUTHOR> http://www.tweetsfc.com/basketball

<comment><USER2> Cool idea. I'm a diehard Washington Wizards fan (sad, I know) and tend to unfollow a lot of players in favor of reports/beat writers/bloggers. The tweets are just more substantive for basketball junkies. A couple of random thoughts:

1) Remove the directed tweets -- i.e. "@user blah blah blah"

2) Beat writers/bloggers act as a filter and tend to retweet interesting player tweets anyway

3) It'd be awesome to see a real-time, in-game twitter dashboard like how you're displaying things now, but with those bloggers/reporters. It can be hard to keep track of it all on a single-line twitter feed... maybe a tweet that gets a lot of "action" somehow (retweets, replies, not sure how you'd measure it) could be displayed more prominently.

<comment><USER3> I'll definitely back up the desire to see feeds of reporters and bloggers rather than, or in addition to, players.

For example, I'm a Cavs fan. Big news right now is the Cavs' search for a new head coach. I'm much more interested in that than I am C.J. Miles' desire to get "custom car stuff" done, which is what his last tweet was about :) But players aren't going to be tweeting about the coaching search, most likely.

<comment><USER4> You may be interested in checking out my startup which organizes sports journalists tweets by league and team. <http://www.fancloud.com/nba/cavaliers>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I really like this! Admittedly, I am not a roundball enthusiast and know little of the sport, so take my 2-cents for what they are worth.

I've clicked around a bit, just to get a feel for the app, and it seems really nice. I love the transitions when selecting a team - very nice.. I also really like how resizing and scaling is handled - it seems that lot of effort was put into how the layout and contents shift around on resize and scale... Very nice.

One small potential enhancement (solely aesthetics) would be to apply the same UI transition behavior when clicking the site logo so that it smoothly transitions back to home just as it does when selecting a team.

In any case, Kudos! Nice looking site - I am sharing this out to my non-HN, pro-basketball, Twitter using friends!

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey thanks for the tip, noted. Glad you enjoy it!

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I actually started doing something similar to follow my own teams (thought someday I'd expand but just never have). Anyhow, one thing we've found is that player tweets are generally worthless and as others have already noted the bloggers/writers and just conversational tweets surrounding teams are often more informative.

Here is my page (which is not near as nice as yours but I really just built it for me to follow news regarding my Chiefs!):

<http://sportszealots.com/1-Kansas-City-Chiefs.html>

<comment><AUTHOR> I've heard this comment from a number of people, thanks for posting. I agree, an aggregate of bloggers/writer alongside player tweets would be a nice added value, thinkin' on it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Looks awesome! Great idea and execution. I tweeted it at Jalen Rose and Bill Simmons.

Minor things:

\- You're throwing a bunch of log statements right now. Might be taking down the javascript in IE (I didn't see if you wrapped `console.log`).

\- Remember, `this.$el` can replace `$(this.el)` (gotta love those convenience methods, I see you're using `this.$(selector)`).

\- Also, UnderscoreJS provides `_.isUndefined` and `_.has` which is a little nicer than the `typeof foo.bar !== undefined` test.

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, thank you. To be honest I'm quite new to js, especially backbone and those other util libs like underscore. Really appreciate the CR, will fix shortly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Check out the CBS Sports app on iOS and Android. It has curated Twitter lists for all sports and leagues - iOS : <https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/cbs- sports/id307184892?mt=8> ; Android: [https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.handmark.s...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.handmark.sportcaster&hl=en)

<comment><USER9> Interesting note: CBS Sports app is developed by a Kansas City, MO mobile development company called Handmark.

<comment><USER8> Sorry - I meant to put a disclaimer on it. I work at Handmark and we had originally developed an app called Sportcaster that got rebranded as CBS Sports this year.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> It looks like someone [1] already had a similar idea, but I like the interface of tweetsfc over Hashtag Basketball. Your site looks a lot more professional. Its also nice to see the follow links to each player's twitter. I will be sharing this with my other NBA-fan friends!

[1] <http://hashtagbasketball.com/>

</comment><comment><USER11> Pretty cool stuff. Maybe you should consider mixing up the tweets a bit though. Right now they seem to be strictly in chronological order and sometimes players shoot out 3 or 4 tweets at a time, so how about mixing it a bit so it's still in relative chronological order, but mix in other players. Not sure if that conveys what I'm thinking though.

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah I see what you mean, cool idea! Will see what I can cook up.

<comment><USER12> This is really awesome. One suggestion, make it more user-friendly by turning twitter handles into links, and web links as well.

<comment><AUTHOR> True, this is the case for individual tweets but not in the list view, noted.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Cool stuff, do you have an open-source version? I'd love to use this type of format for similar stuff I'm working on.

<comment><AUTHOR> Check out <http://isotope.metafizzy.co/> created by David DeSandro. You'll be able to do just about everything you see with it :)

<comment><USER13> Awesome! Thanks, I'm going to add it to <http://verbalcommits.com>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Couldn't this work for everything else as well? Curated lists for different gatherings of people?

"Everyone playing in this golf tourney/chess tourney" "Everyone on the set of Game of Thrones/The Walking dead" "Every CEO of Fortune 500"

<comment><AUTHOR> In its current state, absolutely. That would be really cool actually. I do have some more sports specific enhancements on the roadmap which may or may not fit well with general topics groups of tweeters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> This is pretty sweet.

I have a small website related to NBA[1] as well that I built on my free time (many moons ago). Haven't updated the site yet but will definitely update it again for the next season.

[1] www.nbaschedulesapp.com

</comment><comment><USER16> For what it's worth, the first thing I did was send it to my brother with, "Hey, your kids may be interested in this." That was a reaction independent of any bias towards the source.

Great work - I think you're on to something!

</comment><comment><USER17> This is awesome. I love the Celtics, but I had to go search all the players out manually when I wanted to follow them.

The only problem is most NBA players don't exactly give you...substantial...information in their many tweets.

</comment><comment><USER18> This is super slick! I'm digging the interface. I'm assuming that you used ESPN's api in someway because I see their logo at the bottom. Which api's did you end up using if you don't mind me asking?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey thanks man! ESPN has a handful of open apis that I'm using, mainly the atheltes and teams resources. Check out the full list at <http://developer.espn.com/docs>

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Graet job! I'm a die-hard and long-suffering Raptors fan and would definitely peruse this page from time to time.

I'm also working on a web app in the NBA space, so I'm inspired by your work.

<comment><AUTHOR> Cheers man - from a fellow Canadian.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Looks real cool man! You've got the wrong James Anderson on the Rockets page. I don't think he has a twitter, actually.

<comment><AUTHOR> You're right, just removed him. Thanks for the tip.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Hooray for having soccer teams in there! I'm going to use this to keep tabs on Juventus! :D

</comment><comment><USER22> Love the infini scrolling, wasn't clear in the beginning though b/c there's no load spinner

<comment><AUTHOR> Good point, added to the list. Thanks!

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> At first I read: My MBA + Twitter mashup, and was wondering what on earth that might be.

</comment><comment><USER24> Really good idea! but the best is that the UI looks and feels really great. Great job.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey thanks for the note :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Nice Work! I'm curious, it says "Built with ESPN", did you use the ESPN API?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey thanks! Yeah I should clarify on the site, I'm just using a few open ESPN APIs. <http://developer.espn.com/docs>

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This is really cool. Would love to see further expansion into other leagues.

<comment><AUTHOR> Totally, which league(s) would you like to see added next?

<comment><USER26> All of the major US sports (NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL) would be great.

<comment><AUTHOR> Roger that! Stay tuned via @tweetsFC :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Amazing idea .really love it . How come there is no Dwyane Wade ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Woah, can't believe I missed that! Thanks for the heads up, fixed now. <http://www.tweetsfc.com/basketball/team/miami-heat>

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> This is decent. If you like it you should look into tintup.com

<comment><USER29> <http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/tony-romo-contract.html>

The Cowboys are using it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> This is great. I'd love to see this for other sports.

<comment><USER31> I built something simliar to this back in 2009 for college football coaches. I was planning on adding more for other sports as well as for players but there weren't too many using twitter back then: [http://web.archive.org/web/20100325212936/http://www.coachtw...](http://web.archive.org/web/20100325212936/http://www.coachtweets.com/)

Seems like everyone is tweeting these days and this is a much slicker interface than the one I built. Good job!

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Lifelong Kings fan here. Nice work!

</comment><comment><USER33> Good work! Just what I needed!

</comment><comment><USER34> This is brilliant, well done!

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> This is great. Thank you!

<comment><AUTHOR> My pleasure!

<comment><USER36> The UI is very nice, I am really impressed. What did you use to make that ?

<comment><AUTHOR> Credit goes to @desandro on twitter for creating this magical library <http://isotope.metafizzy.co/>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> pushstate?

<comment><AUTHOR> You bet. Helps me sleep at night.</comment></comment>


Feeback on my new site, please... - <AUTHOR> http://digidorm.com/

<comment><USER2> I like your cool retro logo.

First impressions:

\- It just looks like a blog, and I didn't immediately get it.

\- Seems to be a group-blog-per-university (isn't that market stitched up by facebook?)

\- I looked around, still going "huh?" and clicked on your intro video, watched it for 30-40 seconds of cartooning, and I still didn't get it.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey Gstar - essentially, Digidorm is a tremendous blogging system. But members don't just comment - they create the content - kind of like Allvoices, which, along with Digg and Technorati, were models for the function of Digidorm.

The University List is HOPEFULLY the first clue to visitors that the site drills down to many individual universities.

"Hmmmm" on the video not communicating the sites intention. Perhaps you have some advice on how to amplify my efforts to communicate that?

And I think - professionally and personally - that FB has bascially become Twitter Jr. I don't think the groups satisfy the need of both the community members (students, faculty, parents, advisors) to be forthcoming about their real experiences (one big reason is anonymity, which Digidorm provides) and the universities to engage in well-archived citizen-journalism about the university.

Does that make sense? I'd enjoy answering any more queries/critiques.

<comment><USER2> It might be worth making those about/university/help links under your logo significantly bigger - I missed them on first view.

You don't get much attention time on the web, get in there -fast- .. a 10-15 second video is probably much more appropriate for an intro.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> You need my "ancestry" for me to register. Is that user driven or do you just get more money for the db with ethnicity info, it has a "*" in the sign up page; <http://digidorm.com/user/register> .

The page loaded very slowly for me, YSlow report 5000 DOM objects on the registration page ??

Asking for a matriculation or student ID might reduce signons from non- students even if you can't verify them - once you have some you'll be able to create a pattern.

I was impressed you had an apparently comprehensive list of uni's - I thought Open Uni might catch you out - you should play this up "every Uni" and emphasise the global nature of the site.

Your CC link at the bottom strongly suggests a CC-license but none is made clear; this suggest to me you're trying to con me in some way.

Advertising being the top of a main menu listing (Services) suggests that the point of the site is to make you money with targetted ads. That may be true but you perhaps want to be more subtle about it.

Edit: the logo ain't retro it's horribly 80s corporate looking. The colour scheme is bland. Align that search box or I'll go mad! The guy in the suit is not a good try at a hero shot - hot coeds is the standard. What are you doing to avoid astroturfing?

Just my initial thoughts from a couple of minutes contact.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Hey - I wanted to add a bit about my post to have my new site Digidorm.com critiqued by the Ycombinator community. I'm a brand spanking new start up - went live a little over 4 weeks ago. I spent 3 years working at Arizona State University, did my masters in social media marketing, and then consulted for a while with universities around the country. I realized that ALL universities want social media, but for copious reasons cannot accomplish a coherent presence (lack of resources, silo-ed workflow environments, high turn over, et cetera). So I created one core social media site for EVERY university on the planet that I could find. I'd like to have feedback about the function of the site mostly - is it intuitive? does it add value as a core social media presence for higher education? Yes, it's light on content, but I just went live - does the site somehow communicate its intended values? would you use a site like this?

</comment><comment><USER4> I'm not one to nitpick over spelling, but since it's your tag line, I thought I'd mention that "Its your university" should actually be "It's your university" - as in, "It is your university".

I mean, geez, what are they teaching in university these days anyway? ;)

</comment><comment><USER5> Do you need ads on there right away? I think you should try to build up some readers and contributors first. When I see ads on a brand new site, I really question their motives.

It's fine to monetize your site, but wait as long as possible until you do.

The "Share/save" thing automatically popping up is really annoying. If I rest my mouse there for a second, it pops up and confuses the hell out of me and usually gets in the way of the video I'm trying to watch. Have your viewers click on it to bring it up.

</comment><comment><USER6> Brutal honesty: the site's design is terrible. There is no call to action, the page is WAY to cluttered, and there is no sense of visual consistency.

UI aside, what is the goal of this site? Why would a college student use it? I couldn't find a good reason from the 10 seconds or so I spent poking around (and that's more than most people will spend)

</comment><comment><USER7> What you currently have is a blog.

From reading your comments, you want to let uni folks open share stuff. I'd start with working at a grassroots level with people at a COUPLE of unis to make the site useful on those campuses.

I am against the idea of mass launching on a million campuses. My experience says it's a recipe for disaster.

</comment><comment><USER8> _way_ too much text. Users don't read[1].

\--

[1] : [http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000062....](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/chapters/fog0000000062.html)

</comment><comment><USER9> Nice name, gutsy vision. I see this is for anyone associated with a school, to participate in a group blog. That's a big group of potential users. I drilled around a bit and notice you've put a lot of work writing copy, under the hood. There's an inherent chicken-and-egg problem with these social forum projects but with your social media skills I'm sure you could climb that mountain. My focus on the site itself would be to think about how to articulate message in a more obvious way up top.

</comment><comment><USER10> Like many have said, it is unclear what your site does/where the content comes from.

Also, fix your spelling - the sub-banner "Its Your University" should be "It's".

</comment><comment><USER11> What problem are you trying to solve by creating this site?

<comment><AUTHOR> First, its supposed to give students/parents/advisors/alumni - the REAL people - who have to navigate a universities multiple obstacles/administrative hurdles the power to publish about what is really going on. Essentially, it is meant to take the 100% share of the authority to project the universities reputation away from the marketing dept and distribute it more evenly amongst non-employees who have lots of information to share.

Second - after years working with universities, specifically on technology, social media, and their intersections for broadcasting authentic messaging about the university - I realized that many universities wanted/needed this type of tool, but were lacking resources to build it and keep it coordinated. So I built it for them...and for the students/parents/alumni. Like many social media sites, Digidorm.com is meant to create a place where true stories about a service/products can be shared and learned from.

<comment><USER12> I still don't get it. You've described an abstract issue: universities have a fair amount of power to control what messages about them are disseminated. But what are the use cases? Why would I want to visit your site? Give us a couple of specific examples, preferably in the form of stories.

Also, I would say that the interface needs to be revamped. Right now it's just confusing: it looks like a blog, none of the posts are even marginally relevant to me, and I have no idea how to get to any content I want to see -- or even what that content might be.

I could see a case for the existence of some sort of university-targeted Stack Overflow-like site. Basically public Q&A boards for particular universities, structured by topic, and with a good method for pulling useful content to the top. Maybe this already exists and I don't know about it, or maybe it's not what you're going for, but I at least know why I would use it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> If you could get a list of IP addresses somehow, it would be handy to direct users straight to posts about their particular university (assuming they're accessing from on-campus). I couldn't see the university list on the iPhone - you might already be doing something like this.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Wow - thanks for all the fast feedback. I will respond tomorrow, but for now I definitely have the clue that the sites function and purpose need more in- your-face presence and explanation. I'll jump on that quickly.</comment>


Google, Microsoft and Amazon pay to get around ad blocking tool - <AUTHOR> http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/80a8ce54-a61d-11e4-9bd3-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=intl#axzz3QbYSCpWx

<comment><AUTHOR> I do wonder if the audience that actually uses stuff like Adblock aren't the type to click ads anyways.</comment>


Sleep helps to repair damaged DNA in neurons, scientists find - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/05/sleep-helps-to-repair-damaged-dna-in-neurons-scientists-find <comment><USER2> One argument I've heard: if evolution could get rid of sleep, it would have a long time ago. There are several survival drawbacks from sleep, as it leaves one vulnerable. It must be important!

<comment><USER3> Definitely today sleep prioritizes healing resources over active resources and it certainly seems beneficial to have that happen. But I'd contend that a system that can constantly be active _and_ healing would be an evolutionary improvement that _will_ occur over time.

Evolution is kind of like Economics; it's not rational, and it's not currently in equilibrium.

<comment><USER4> That would take extra calories, that's where the balance is

<comment><USER5> Too bad I can't spend my calorie surplus on the no sleep extra healing evolution upgrade.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> My pet theory was that natural neural networks have built in learning mechanism that is prone to over-fitting. The way nature is overcoming the problem is periodically disconnecting inputs and outputs from the neural network and letting it trigger randomly for some time to add a bit of noise.

But it seems that more and more evidence shows up that sleep is just clean-up time for the brain.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Original paper: [https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-08806-w](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-08806-w)

</comment><comment><USER7> I think it's premature to assume that sleep is essential to any essential mechanism that occurs during it. It's similar to assuming that if a smartphone downloads and applies updates when it's charging and on WiFi, that external power and WiFi are vital to the updating mechanism.

<comment><USER8> The fact that sleep is essential is something that is very easily observed. Sleep deprivation results in a relatively quick death (days - weeks), even faster than starvation.

<comment><USER7> By essential, I don't mean that we depend on it, but that it is evolutionary unavoidable. It may be physically possible for a given process to be performed during wake, yet we are only able to perform it during sleep, because we had already evolved to sleep and thus the process could be optimised in such a way as to become dependent on it.

If we're trying to answer the question of why complex animals evolved to sleep in the first place, then we'd have to find processes which depend inherently on sleep (or at least are enhanced by it).

<comment><USER8> I agree with your statement - that doesn't mean that there isn't a way around sleep. If we imagine the fitness vs. evolutionary traits as multi-dimensional landscape, it could be that we're stuck on a very deep local minimum. It doesn't mean that there's not a deeper local minimum few blocks away :-)

It just means that sampling evolutionary traits that lead us out of that local minima, is very expensive from a fitness perspective.

<comment><USER7> > it could be that we're stuck on a very deep local minimum

I think that's likely.

Also, in cases where being able to be awake continually (e.g. high predation or flying over water) animals have evolved unihemispheric sleep, which is likely a shorter evolutionary path and largely satisfies the selective pressure, making it less likely for sleep to be entirely evolved away.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Sleep is when you descend from a vegetable who lacks diggestable light food during the night.</comment>


Breaking Elgar's Enigma - <AUTHOR> https://newrepublic.com/article/139816/breaking-elgars-enigma <comment><USER2> While the article is strongly sympathetic to Padgett's answer, various hints seep through that Padgett is actually a bit of a crackpot, and his solution is a bit of a Bible Code. Nothing too obvious, but the sort of thing one recognizes from reading about other crankery. And then, two-thirds of way into the article:

> Most Elgar scholars I contacted said they have stopped responding to > Padgett's persistent inquiries.

Sigh. This sentence should have been in the lede.

<comment><USER3> Yes, at that point they revealed some of the classic symptoms of a crank:

> One professor at the University of London, who asked for anonymity so > Padgett wouldn't follow up, called Padgett's theory an "attempt to create a > reality effect through the excessive presentation of material which the > reader is meant to assume is somehow evidence."

Cranks are fascinating in that, while they have boundless time and energy to produce voluminous work on a subject, they can't quite be bothered to educate themselves about what does or does not constitute a logical argument, or about little details like the fundamentals of mathematics or physics.

> He also contends that English scholars are too protective of their prized > composer to consider the theory of a layperson such as him. "I'm an > outsider, you know. I'm not one of these credentialed academics. I'm not > published," he said. "Who am I to presume that I could fathom the dark > secrets of one of their foremost composers?"

Another hallmark, the crank feels mistreated strictly because they are an outsider and questioning the insiders.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is actually a rather good article. It covers the subject in some detail varying points of view. Enjoyable read.

</comment><comment><USER5> Listening to Padgett's rendering of his Enigma theme on Youtube, it's not especially musical. Author of the article seems duly impressed, but it's very easy to write harmony to any given passage if you know the rules.

</comment><comment><USER6> Good piece, other than the Grammarly product placement that stood out like a sore thumb

<comment><USER7> I don't think it's paid product placement.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Some might be interested in Nick Pelling's thoughts:

[http://ciphermysteries.com/?s=elgar](http://ciphermysteries.com/?s=elgar)

</comment><comment><USER9> So it seems that even music has its own kind of numerologists</comment>


Panoramic views of Moscow subway - <AUTHOR> http://russos.livejournal.com/831899.html

<comment><USER3> I was there last fall and agree, it's pretty fantastic. The only unrealistic thing about these pics is that they were staged during a down time - <USER2> Moscow Metro (yes, it's proper to call it the "Metro") is used by a lot of people! It's pretty busy and taking pictures can get in the way of foot traffic.

</comment><comment><USER4> The subway stations are absolutely worth seeing in person. They're incredible.

</comment><comment><USER5> Amazing #9, would have made Salvador Dali drool. Funny caption too: "ОМГ!".

</comment><comment><USER6> Beautiful. Any guesses/insights on what software was used to create the mosaics?

</comment><comment><USER7> That's... beautiful. But the pictures remind me of a skateboard park, heh.

</comment><comment><USER8> No people or trains?

</comment><comment><USER9> Coming from nyc's subways -- which look like a place you wouldn't be scared to enter if you didn't know it's public transport -- Moscow was a shock. The subways are beautiful, each of the stations is unique, they're clean, and pretty well maintained.

I keep pondering buying this: <http://www.beeflowers.com/moscowmetro/></comment>


Oracle to issue huge security patch addressing 36 Java vulnerabilities - <AUTHOR> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2322481/oracle-to-issue-huge-security-patch-addressing-36-java-vulnerabilities <comment><USER2> For context, Java will not run by default in any of the 3 major web browsers. In Firefox, it uses Click to Play, requiring you to click on the plugin to load it. In Chrome and IE, it will present a permissions box asking you for permission to run the applet that you can deny.

</comment><comment><USER3> Does anyone know if this is the infamous 7u51 which will disable unsigned applets from running AT ALL in a browser? (Yes, I know about the whitelist jar)

<comment><USER4> It is, this one raises the security baseline. In case you need to make applets compatible with 7u51 take a look at [https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform- group/entry/new_secur...](https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform- group/entry/new_security_requirements_for_rias)

<comment><USER5> So now all applets will have to be signed, and users will be trained to accept running the signed applets with that horrible GUI for confirming it. Did you know that popup about running a signed applet also confirms you're OK with running the applet outside the sandbox?

So from now on, all applets will by default run outside the sandbox? How is this an improvement?

<comment><USER6> It's an improvement because all applets will by default _not run at all_ , and most users don't need to use any applets and thus will not in fact be trained to agree to run applets.

Basically, it acknowledges that the Java sandbox is as leaky as a sieve and that securitywide, running an applet not much different from downloading and running a regular executable file, so you should only do it if you trust the source.

<comment><USER5> It's a shame if poorly written applets end up being signed cluelessly.

At least the sandbox used to prevent accidents, if not malicious code. Plenty of things like "lights-out" server admin tools seem to ship with semi-dodgy applets for KVM stuff etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Let's say this update does everything advertised and more, the perception remains that Java is just not usable in the browser--it's just too dangerous.

Away from testing purposes, the only reason we use IE in the office is so that we can use Webex without Java.

<comment><USER8> So you rather use the ActiveX plugin instead?!

Talk about security.

<comment><USER7> Is ActiveX more dangerous than Java applets? If so, that's news to me, but I'm all ears.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> We really need to implement the missing functionality Java applets are providing in plain JS, so applets can die. The last time i absolutely had to implement an applet was to provide my client with this functionality that was not available with pure JS:

\- direct access to printer: the user wanted to print on a specific tray of the printer, without selecting it every time. JS only implements window.print() with no fine grained printer control.

\- serial/parallel/usb access: access to a POS for card processing, and we needed to write some data on a smartcard.

\- plain TCP connections

\- read/write files on the local filesystem.

I understand that all these features require more control of the underlying hardware and need to be somehow secured, but we did not want to write a desktop app just for these features, and applets gave us the means to implement what the user needed. Once JS can do that, applets can die a quick dead.

<comment><USER10> Why not an HTTP server running on localhost that provides these things?

<comment><USER9> Yes, we thought of that too, but the installation of the server on every client was a lot more work than writing an applet. But it was a valid alternative if the clients using the app where few.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What an utter mess Java is. You'd think after 20 years they'd have this sorted out by now.

<comment><USER12> You mean, what an utter mess the Java Applet Plugin is. And it is, but keep in mind that the Java team signed up for a world of hurt: they produced a design whose attack surface is an entire programming language, complete with networking and a user interface toolkit and all the timers, retention cycles, native code bindings, and other junk that comes with it.

Surely there are several bugs here that aren't specific to the Applet Plugin, but their impact is probably minimal outside of the plugin.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> And then, finally, Java will be secure. Right?

<comment><USER14> No system/platform is 100% secure, and Java is no exception

It is all relative

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Please note that the only way to exploit these vulnerabilities is you've already got your code executing on the machine you intend to break. The only thing this allows you to do is to break out of the java sandbox, and keep in mind that most languages don't even pretend that sandbox isolates code (e.g. python/perl/go/... all openly say you can easily break out of the sandbox). So they're trying to solve a really hard problem.

<comment><USER16>
        Please note that the only way to exploit these vulnerabilities is you've already got your code executing on the machine you intend to break

I can't reconcile this with the article.

        ...34 that are bugs that can be exploited remotely by an attacker without requiring authentication

By "your code" do you mean "Java-based application"? Honest question.

<comment><USER15> I mean that these bugs only solve the "break out of the sandbox" issue. They do not get your code on to the machine to exploit.

In other words these flaws are the equivalent of "I can upload code, how do I get to shell access to the java account".

<comment><USER17> So basically, if someone browses to a site with an applet and doesn't block Java.

<comment><USER16> I wouldn't call that a remote exploit.

<comment><USER12> Unlike the whole software security industry, which does.

<comment><USER16> I don't work in the software security industry like you but I don't see how it's a remote exploit. Wikipedia gives a way of discerning the two [1] that makes sense to me, as a software security industry layperson:

> Whether they need to be run on the same machine as the program that has the > vulnerability (local) or can be run on one machine to attack a program > running on another machine (remote).

So if a user starts running the code for you on their machine, it's local. If I send a malformed JPG to a Java webservice that process images, and it doesn't process the JPG correctly leading to code execution or a DoS then that's remote.

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(computer_security)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_\(computer_security\))

<comment><USER18> I agree, it's a local exploit, not a remote exploit (I've debated this with people as well), but in the end Java sandbox bypass exploits are (or were) the most effective local exploit possible. And they're arguably far more valuable than the vast majority of remote exploits out there.

Silent, cross-browser, cross-platform; browser plugin installed by default with anyone who has Java. And that's a huge number of people, since a ton of corporate and residential users have Java installed on all sorts of devices. Java is responsible for a massive ramp up in infections of computer literate and illiterate users alike between 2010 and now.

<comment><USER6> An interesting aspect of the whole Java pluigin fiasco is that, as you write, there were very few exploits until a couple of years ago - but the plugin was widely deployed for over a decade before that, and there is no reason to believe that it was somehow more secure before. So why the recent increase?

<comment><USER19> I think it is a combination of third party bug bounty programs (ZDI, etc) which is causing vulnerabilities to be disclosed to the vendor and the blood in the water effect.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: How to get near the top of search in GitHub? - <AUTHOR>

I have a few projects that I'm working on that I'm getting close to wanting to have them publically available. They live in public repositories and if you enter the right search terms you can find them.
However, they show up at the bottom of the search. Projects with a couple of 40 line code files with almost no submissions rank higher than mine. In contrast, I have documentation (over 200 pages), libraries, unit tests, and so on.
Does it just come down to how many watchers you have, and/or forks? What kind of legitimate things can I do to get higher in the rankings?
A typical search yields between 10 and 250 hits - it's not like I'm fighting against 1000 narrowly different projects.
I've expanded my description to get more possible hit of keywords, and that works, but seems a bit manipulative. I want a short, readable description, not a large paragraph designed to get search hits. <comment><USER2> I don't normally use Github's search. Most of the time, it's a Google search such as `python markov chain github' and get lots of Github links. Perhaps you should try to optimize that, instead?</comment>


Tell HN: Automating iPhone QA testing - <AUTHOR> http://www.deviceanywhere.com/mobile-application-testing-smartphones.html

<comment><AUTHOR> There's also an ObjC library: <http://code.google.com/p/uispec/></comment>


The Art of Being Right (Schopenhauer, 1831) - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right

<comment><AUTHOR> These are also available, complete with amusing illustrations, at <http://logicien.fr/extension-schopenhauer.html></comment>


OK: How Two Letters Made 'America's Greatest Word' - <AUTHOR> http://www.npr.org/2010/11/17/131390650/ok-how-two-letters-made-america-s-greatest-word <comment><USER2> odd, it doesn't even spell out "oll korrect" anywhere in the article.

[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/503/what-does-ok- st...](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/503/what-does-ok-stand-for)</comment>