British Airways announces immediate retirement of 747 fleet - <AUTHOR> https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/16/british-airways-announces-immediate-retirement-of-747-fleet/ <comment><USER2> One of my playlists is called "64K", after the seat I had on my first BA 747 flight two years ago, AUS>LHR, my second ever trip in Business Class. I prepared the music in advance to download it, all nice relaxing tracks (Aimee Mann / Feist / Beth Gibbons / Norah Jones). I was super excited for the flight, and really happy that 64K was available, it was supposedly one of the best business class seats on the plane. Upper deck, window seat, last one on the right. No need to step over anyone, near-perfect privacy, a massive amount of storage space, and first in line to get off the plane.

I put on my playlist in shuffle after dinner, and drifted away into a very nice, long, uninterrupted sleep. When I woke up my breakfast was ready and waiting for me on the big surfaces below the windows. BA Club World has it's issues, but that flight was so memorably that I renamed my playlist from "Night Tunes" to "64K" to remember it.

<comment><USER3> Beth Gibbons is not a name I usually see called out as a solo artist -- to be honest, until today I didn't know she had done any solo work, despite Portishead's Dummy being in my most played albums every year since software started keeping track of that kind of thing for me.

Thanks for causing me to Google that. Now I've got something "new" to listen to while I make breakfast.

<comment><USER2> The album "Out Of Season" she did with Rustin Man is really good, all of her tracks on my 64K playlist are from that one.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The 747s are certainly long in the tooth and A350s, 777s, 787s are better in almost every way, but it's still sad to see the 747s go. They're iconic and always so much fun (to me) to see taking off/landing.

Wouldn't be surprised if this means the A380 being retired isn't far behind, too. It may have some life left in it because LHR really needs those big planes due to limited landing slots, but if travel doesn't pick up soon and they can't fill the A380s... yikes.

<comment><USER5> I've been lucky enough to fly on the upper deck of a 747 a handful of times (both economy and business, never first!). I've yet to fly on a A380 but I suspect time is running out there.

That being said, flying long haul (transatlantic) on a 787 is sooo much better!

<comment><USER6> I'm glad I got to fly in a 747 upper deck and nose (thanks BA and Qantas). Still I really wish I could have flown in the proper nose right at the front. The idea of having forwardish facing windows just looks so nice.

I will say the A380 is really so much better than 747s (or at least 747-4s, not sure about the newer -8s). You can just tell how much quieter it is, and the size of some of the business class sections is outstanding. Emirates' business class bar is such a fun little novelty that made flying delightful. And their economy just felt better too.

<comment><USER7> I was lucky enough to fly first earlier this year on a BA 747 to Dubai (Avios reward flight). I was sat in the 2nd row, but the seat is not that close to the window which makes it hard to benefit from the angled windows. It was cool, but not as great as people make it out to be.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Flown 39 times on a BA 747 to 3 continents in all 4 classes. One flight in Feb 2014 I remember from Mumbai had water pouring from the ceiling on me on takeoff. the planes felt old then. Most recent flight was down to Nairobi and back in 2018, they've been really showing their age for a long time, especially compared with the A350 and 787s I've been flying more recently on Qatar.

But even the objectively superior business class on QR's new planes can't compare with climbing the stairs to the top deck, sitting in 64A [0] with the table and bins next to you for your flight. I first did this in September 2012, on a flight from Moscow to Heathrow. While we were coming in over the North sea I gave the at-seat phone a go -- it still worked (I think they were removed from service a while ago), certainly an experience at the time to be able to talk to someone from mid-air.

My wife and I had a weekend to Seatle in 2014, and bagged seat 1A and 1K at the very nose[1]. I think the 747 is the only plane you can get where you fly in front of the pilot (the A380 cockpit is at the front), and a unique experience.

I wasn't really flying when Concorde was around, and I've always regretted not flying it, but I'm glad I managed to experience both the upper deck and the nosecone on a 747.

(Oh yes, BA's 747 was one of the few planes I've flown on with a window in the toilet)

[0] [https://21stcenturyjourneys.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/dsc0...](https://21stcenturyjourneys.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/dsc00187.jpg)

[1] [https://scottmcgee.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/11-ba747-larg...](https://scottmcgee.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/11-ba747-large.jpg)

<comment><USER9> I've had water pour on my on a BA 747. Was quite a few years ago but it's caused by condensation which then finds a way out when the plane takes off and tilts upwards.

<comment><USER10> Yes it's condensation and happens on every airliner, but the water is normally contained by the thermal insulation and runs behinds the panels down to the bilge area (at the bottom of the fuselage barrel). Some issues in the insulation condition or installation can result in water dropping in the cabin.

<comment><USER11> Interesting, thanks! Did always wonder why sometimes you can hear some running water in the panels. I always assumed it was something on the outside of the plane.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I wonder if there will be a Cunard-like airline that flies older planes because people want to experience them.

I believe Cunard (part of Carnival) operates the Queen Mary 2, the last running ocean liner on Earth. It does Southampton to New York via traditional Atlantic crossing, just like the Titanic (almost) did. Not sure if it makes money, but (pre-pandemic) it was likely subsidized by other cruise ships or by QM2 cruising herself.

It'd be cool to have a flight from Heathrow to JFK (?) on one 747 for people who want to experience the same plane. I think an airline enthusiast might go several times a year, and there's a goodly number of airline enthusiasts.

I think a flying boat tour of the Pacific islands would be a wicked honeymoon!

<comment><USER13> > I believe Cunard (part of Carnival) operates the Queen Mary 2, the last > running ocean liner on Earth. It does Southampton to New York via > traditional Atlantic crossing, just like the Titanic (almost) did. Not sure > if it makes money, but (pre-pandemic) it was likely subsidized by other > cruise ships or by QM2 cruising herself.

I doubt it's subsidized, given how expensive it is. I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing between "cruise ship" and "ocean liner" \- I guess in theory the QM2 runs to a timetable while cruise ships run to ad-hoc charter schedules, but in practice those cruise schedules are set years in advance and that timetable can be changed on fairly short notice. When I looked into a round-the-world trip it didn't seem like e.g. Vancouver-Hawaii was going to be any harder than NY-Southampton - in both cases you look at the schedule and book your trip months in advance.

The QM2 is a luxury service but it's not just for enthusiasts - there are plenty of people who can't or don't want to fly, and are willing to pay the price.

<comment><USER12> Oh there's significant structural differences between cruise ships and ocean liners. Ocean liner's bow is strengthened for travel in adverse seas, and the stern is cupped rather than box-shaped to reduce roll. The superstructure is tapered for better balance, and the engines are optimized for power / speed moreso than vibration / comfort. They're more expensive than cruise ships as a result.

See: [https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between- ocean-l...](https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-ocean-liner- and-vs-cruise-ship/)

<comment><USER13> Then presumably those ships doing Vancouver-Hawaii are "ocean liners" in that sense, and the QM2 is by no means "the last running ocean liner on Earth"?

<comment><USER14> With the exception of RMS Queen Mary 2 (Cunard Line: 2004-present), the ocean liner is nearly extinct.

[https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-last-surviving- transatlan...](https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-last-surviving- transatlantic-ocean-liners-1691853406)

<comment><USER13> You don't seem to have engaged with the discussion. This was claimed two or three posts back, but what does it actually mean?

Plenty of passenger ships - to give a concrete example, the _Spirit_ class - routinely make transoceanic crossings at a reasonable speed following schedules published years in advance. Perhaps a little slower than the QM2. Perhaps with slightly more onboard amenities. But I can see no clear distinction that justifies this talk of the QM2 being somehow "the last" and qualitatively different from these other ships that do very much the same thing in practice.

<comment><USER15> It was explained wasn't it? The design parameters are different, as the purpose is different (transportation rather than leisure).

"Bob is the last sheep"

"But I see all these four-legged ruminants wandering around eating grass, what about them?"

"Those are goats"

"You don't seem to have engaged with the discussion..."

<comment><USER13> I responded to that, and then grandparent just reverted to a blank assertion. It's more like:

"Bob is the last sheep"

"But I see all these four-legged ruminants wandering around eating grass, what about them?"

"Those are goats"

"We're shearing them and gathering wool from them; doesn't that make them sheep?"

"Bob is the last sheep"

"You don't seem to have engaged with the discussion..."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The Boeing of today might not be able to do what the Boeing of yesteryear did, getting the 747 series to a 50+ year life.

I say this because of the MAX, and some other behaviours which stem from Boeing moving from an engineering focussed company to a giant shit-show of mergers, stock games, and west-east mindshare collapse (judged from the partisan books & articles I read)

I fly Boeing and Airbus mainly whenever I travel, which used to be 10+ times per year long-haul worldwide. Never felt unsafe and that includes aborted takeoffs, engine fails on the ramp, and airpack breakdowns in-flight necessitating fuel-dump and go-back. These machines work. The FCC mandated engineering around flight safety in operations work.

But.. I trust the 74x and the 380/350 more than I trust the 787 and the MAX because of some spectacularly bad public engineering exposure.

The battery fire story, and the MAX-no-training-needed story are really not good for Boeing.

The whole "if it isn't boeing I am not going" thing is long long past.

on the jumbo, It wasn't the first 'passenger plane with a bump' -there was a couple of precursors in the pre-jet era, including one designed to carry a car in the body and pax up top. And, it wasn't the first with stairs by a long chalk, the flying boats had them as did some of the jet era precursors.

But, it was by far and away the bestest, most successful 4 engine plane. The life extension, (and length extensions!) over the series was amazing. As was the fuel economy and fitout. I think the decision by Lufthansa to re-tool on the 8 series was probably a huge mistake, but then so was QANTAS decision not to take the 777.

Airbus did good work with the 380. I think it is a fantastic ride as a passenger, in all classes, its quiet, and lovely and when full, good economic sense. But its dying from a change in the model.

The 747 is going to have a long life in cargo. I think even without a lift- nose this workhorse has a lot to go yet.

 _(not a pilot: 20+ year international business traveller perspective)_

<comment><USER17> > But.. I trust the 74x and the 380/350 more than I trust the 787 and the MAX > because of some spectacularly bad public engineering exposure.

I've followed the 737 MAX debacle quite a bit. I've also seen a video from someone who used to analyse (private) airplane crashes. He made it really clear that any crash is the result of a multiple of reasons. Meaning, there's no one root cause, there are multiple causes coming together. This unlike business where it's almost always assumed that there's a "root cause" (singular).

One worry of mine is that not enough is done to allow the FAA to properly certify the 737 MAX. There's been (proposed?) changes, but they feel more like window dressing. Other aviation authorities used to follow the FAA, due to the 737 MAX you see that this trust has gone. You've highlighted how the change in culture in Boeing is another cause of this. But aside from that, if this could happen at Boeing, it could (theoretically) just as well happen with Airbus. This again due to a multitude of reasons, how FAA is setup, Boeing changed, competition from Airbus, advantage of reusing an existing type. A lot of reasons could be applicable again, or apply to Airbus.

Aside from really checking the 737 MAX plus other aviation authorities not really trusting the FAA I don't see enough comprehensive changes.

Regarding the 747 and retiring of these planes: it seems every new airplane gives people less space to walk around, less space for luggage, less space in chairs (chair width is important as well!), etc.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I'm a little nostalgic for this - I flew quite a few trips in the upper deck of a 747 over the last few years, almost all of them on the back of a long stretch of work and a "celebratory" night before travelling. It's a strange feeling but I'm almost sad to see them go.

On the other hand, more modern plans are so much more efficient. An A350 uses literally half the fuel of an A380, (which itself uses less than a 747).With lower capacity hopefully comes lower demand for air travel - this can only be a good thing.

<comment><USER19> _> With lower capacity hopefully comes lower demand for air travel - this can only be a good thing._

Why is it only a good thing? Lower capacity for air travel means all kinds of travel that is of value to people can't reasonably take place any more. People have relatives and friends that live too far away to make visiting in person by any other means infeasible. People want to go to see places in person that they can't feasibly get to any other way. People have business reasons to make trips that can't feasibly be made any other way. There was a lot of demand pre-COVID for air travel for a reason. The capacity just vanishing is a loss for many.

<comment><USER13> > People have business reasons to make trips that can't feasibly be made any > other way. There was a lot of demand pre-COVID for air travel for a reason.

Maybe. I think we've seen that a lot of those business trips weren't actually necessary as such, and were more about making an expensive signal of commitment.

<comment><USER20> Those business trips probably were necessary in the 70's, before the internet and video conferencing.

But in 2019 I think most trips were more about corporate inertia than practical need.

<comment><USER21> Also perks. I've had some fun trips to California that I suspect were not entirely necessary - we'd have been fine if we could have just all shifted our working days to overlap for a week or so.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Basic question - where will all these 747s actually physically go to be retired? Will there be a landfill somewhere with a huge amount of airplane parts? Will they be left to rust in some hangar in the middle of nowhere?

<comment><USER23> Most of them end up in dry desert areas in the southwest United States: [https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/airplane-boneyards-list- an...](https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/airplane-boneyards-list-and-map.htm)

<comment><USER24> Huh—are these (presumably huge) areas guarded? Am I stupid for wondering what's to stop a group from making off with a plane?

<comment><USER25> Well, they don't leave the keys in the ignition ;)

<comment><USER26> As a random fun fact planes don't have keys.

<comment><USER24> Do they have some other authentication mechanism instead?

<comment><USER27> The authentication method is knowing how to fly said plane and getting in said plane in the first place.

The planes that are relatively accessible aren't flightworthy without effort, and the planes that are flightworthy require violating federal law (in the US) to access them.

<comment><USER28> >and the planes that are flightworthy require violating federal law (in the US) to access them.

That doesn't really answer the question though. Breaking into a house also violates laws, yet it happens all the time. If you've made it onto an airport tarmac, can you just steal a plane?

<comment><USER29> It's logistically very difficult. Getting fuel into it usually takes a special truck, so you'd need access to that (when a plane is parked overnight it would have a little bit of fuel in it, but not enough to get very far after taking off). Even getting into the plane is difficult - you'd need a stair truck, and somebody to move the stairs out of the way when you're in. If it's parked somewhere where you can't just taxi out, you need somebody in a tug to do a pushback.

So assuming you're that far in, and you know how to start it up, you don't have a flight plan logged, so the tower isn't going to give you clearance to take off. If you take off without permission, they're going to call the air force, so you'd better be in a country that doesn't have a very big air force or a nearby base, and you probably want to choose somewhere where you can get into another country's airspace who isn't friendly with the country you stole the plane from...

<comment><USER30> it's easier than you might think. for example, on a 747 you don't need external stairs, since access is available via the nose wheel landing gear bay [0] according to a pilot.

0\. [https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2605/can- large-...](https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/2605/can-large- airliners-be-operated-without-ground-support?rq=1#comment141427_2605)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> "the airline believes that the 747s are sustainable"

I guess they meant "aren't".

<comment><AUTHOR> That must be a typo I guess.

<comment><USER32> It certainly wasn't the only typo in the article.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> I don't understand the nostalgia for these planes. I see a big plane and I think "cattle car." There's nothing nice about sitting in the middle section of a huge wide-body plane, far from the luggage bin, far from the window, and with the prospect of climbing over several people or waking them up so you can go to the bathroom. It takes a long time to board and deplane them.

Moreover, as a passenger I want point-to-point air service at a convenient time. This is possible with smaller airplanes. Big plane requires funneling passengers to some big gateway airport so they can fill the gigantic plane. That requires spending time in airports. Not interested.

If the nostalgia is that there's something elite about a big plane: Gordon Gekko didn't fly around in a 747.

There's a reason these planes are obsolete. Planes like the 737 have democratized air travel and made it affordable for everyone. That's a much bigger achievement than the 747 will ever be. And I'll take the convenient frequent long-distance service that narrow-body planes offer (US mainland to Hawaii on a 737? Amazing!) over a 747 any day. A curving staircase on an airplane just doesn't scream "cool" to me.

<comment><USER34> To experience them at their best, you have to fly international first class. I've had the fortune of doing this a number of times on the 747. I've sat upstairs (which is typically business class) and at the very front, which is usually first class. It's fantastic. You have room to stretch and you're treated very well.

Here are a few photos from my Lufthansa first class experience.

[https://www.instagram.com/p/B00TFMcHA4a/?igshid=caikqjatjldk](https://www.instagram.com/p/B00TFMcHA4a/?igshid=caikqjatjldk)

The photos are:

\- the famous rubber duckies from the Lufthansa First Class lounge in Frankfurt. They have private bathrooms with full baths that you can use.

\- the obligatory outside-by-the-jet photo that you can take when they pick you up in a luxury car on the tarmac (not that white one)

\- Seat 1K on a LH 747-800

\- The Porsche that they pick you up in when you're changing flights or going to the lounge.

<comment><USER35> I flew business class with BA five years ago as it was cheaper than economy on my usual airline at the time (EK) - mainly as it was a last minute booking. I flew two intercontinental legs (Middle East -> Europe -> North America) and both aircraft were on old 747s that looked like they hadn't been cleaned for a week or more. The infotainment system felt just as old, with a choice of maybe 20 movies on the 8" display where the touch screen barely functioned. The lie flat bed wasn't bad (they had an interesting layout where one seat faces foward and the next faces backward), and the food was just regular reheated meals with slightly nicer silverware than economy.

Now I understand some other airlines have better offerings than BA, and if you fly first class (I think for the same flight it was roughly 8x more) it's going to be a different story, but at the end of the day you are still just flying A to B.

The best part was probably the lounge where I had the connection, but I only had 1 1/2 hours so didn't get to experience it much. However it wasn't really much more than a 4* hotel buffet.

If I could afford to drop $20k to fly first class whenever I feel like it, would I? Probably. Do I feel like I'm missing out on anything by not doing that? Nope.

How much more is it to fly in a private jet? I feel that would be a different story, given you can schedule it so it picks you up whenever is convenient for you.

<comment><USER36> First class is on the way out on many international routes since all the demand and money is in biz class. Ya, you can get your own private cabin with big screen tv and full sized bed (on a Singapore 380 if they still fly those), but most aren't going to pay for it and are flying on an upgrade (business class is full, bump someone to first!).

Business class is nice because you can sleep on a lie flat, which is the only thing I care about on an 11 hour flight.

<comment><USER37> With Qatar you now can get your own suite in business.

Personally I hope I'll never have to fly across planet in economy, but also wouldn't mind flying in bunk bed either. It's sitting up for 26-30 hours or so that kills me.

<comment><USER38> I'm looking forward to configurations where you can book a coffin to sleep in for 6 hours on your flight once at altitude.

<comment><USER37> Air NZ announced theirs right at the start of the pandemic.

6 bunks are not going to be enough for 300-400 passengers tho.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I last travelled on a BA 747 back in February - first time on the top deck in Club World and despite being an old aircraft, the top deck is a pretty special experience; it feels like a private jet, very few seats, excellent service.

Top deck on an A380, whilst a far more comfortable experience with the lower noise and better air, doesn't quite compare.

</comment><comment><USER40> It's a bit sad but not unexpected. I rode on two 747 flight in my life, both pretty memorable. Maybe the mourning for these planes is less about the planes but the kinds of epic flights most people would hop on them for. I rode one from LA to Auckland and back, as well as Chicago to London. Both very memorable trips for me. I'd always choose to ride one when I could. There was a sense of, maybe wrongly, safety in the jumbo having been around for so long, carried so many people safely. Yes they crashed, but most often from what I recall at no fault of the plane.

<comment><USER41> I flew on one of the early 747SP Sydney to Los Angeles flights in April 1984 which was only feasible because of this amazing aircraft. The London to Hong Kong leg of that trip with a stop-over at Dubai and the amazing run into Kai Tak airport was probably my most memorable flight.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Awesome time to buy a new private jet :-)

My understanding is that many (most?) airlines use a leasing company to "hold" their physical inventory. If this is the case is this really just notice that they are going to break all their leases?

I also wonder, given that the 747 has been EOL'd by Boeing as well, how much one can recover by 'parting out' these 28 planes. Will they live on like the DC-3 did as a 'third party' airline plane or are they just too big to be useful in that way? Could make for a heck of a fire fighting fleet I suppose.

<comment><USER43> You don't need to wonder, plenty of active used plane dealers, just like used car dealers...

You can have your own 747 for $12.5M, flight hour operating costs not so friendly.

[https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for- sale/810282...](https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for- sale/81028201/1991-boeing-747-400)

Alternatively, this one will run you $275M+ [https://www.thedrive.com/the-war- zone/23001/qatari-royal-fli...](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war- zone/23001/qatari-royal-flight-747-8i-jumbo-jet-is-up-for-sale-and-yes-there- are-interior-pictures)

<comment><USER42> Wow, tempting :-) I had no idea you could pick one up for under $20M.

<comment><USER44> I would assume all the other costs to fly one (ground equipment, certified pilots and engineers, etc.) will dwarf that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> It's a good sign, in a way, that airlines have to quickly retire older inefficient airplanes, and many could come out of this leaner and ultimately stronger.

Managed to get one transatlantic Lufthansa 748 flight - horrible experience, seats incredibly cramped. And one transatlantic Air France 388 - got middle seat, but with wall in front = lot of legroom, + alcohol for free = overall pleasant flight :-)

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm sad to see the Queen of the skies go. I do hope that I'll catch a ride on a 747-8 before those get retired too.

<comment><USER46> [https://thepointsguy.com/news/these-are-the-last- boeing-747s...](https://thepointsguy.com/news/these-are-the-last- boeing-747s-you-can-fly-in-the-world/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Remaining airlines with 747s in passenger service:

\- Air China

\- Air India

\- Asiana

\- China Airlines

\- Korean

\- Lufthansa

\- Rossiya

\- Thai

<comment><USER6> Lufthansa, Air China, and Korean Air all have newer 747-8i's too, for what that's worth.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747-8#Operators](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747-8#Operators)

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Ironically the 2 times I have flown either of the monster planes (747 or a380) were from Salt Lake City to Jackson Hole, which is a ~25 minute flight. And basically the shortest flight I've ever taken commercially, well that or Cin->Louisville.

<comment><USER49> When you fly from SLC to JAC, you might have a skiing problem. (Queue the "it's not a problem when you're awesome at it".)

<comment><USER48> I definitely have a skiing problem, it's the worst. It's not a problem when your good at a thing that's fun that doesnt tear your acl like a piece of string like snowboarding.

But coming from STL the good flights was fly to SLC and then hop in with Delta. Seemed like a lot of places aggregated at a hub and took one giant plane in a day.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> I've flown internationally a LOT. My only time ever being on a 747 was on BA, and it was really amazing being on a double-decker with the business lounge area. The 747 is truly a remarkable plane, and one of the most comfortable flights transatlantic flights I've ever been on. I'm sad to see it go. This follows on the heels of Delta here in the US retiring the Mad Dogs (MD88 & MD90) as well as their 777 fleet. Lots of shake-ups in the airline industry, I'm not sure that all of them are good.

</comment><comment><USER51> Too bad. I've really enjoyed watching BA's daily LHR to SEA flight come in overhead around 5 or 6pm on weekdays. Sea-Tac doesn't get too many 747s despite its proximity to Boeing.

<comment><USER52> Unfortunately actually being in a BA 747 is nowhere near as enjoyable. I'm glad for this.

</comment></comment><comment><USER53> I always wanted to fly upstairs in a 747, but they never flew on my routes. I think also surprisingly it's usually just normal business class up there, not first?

<comment><USER54> South African used to have coach upstairs when I flew it. New York to Johannesburg was an amazing flight, I think it was 16 or so hours. Eventually you're just sitting there wondering how long can this thing fly?

<comment><USER55> That flight is brutal without sufficient entertainment. I've gotten bored of everything I brought and time slows to a crawl.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> This is unfortunate news for BA and its fleet and is reminiscent to the super- sonic concorde days (Which I still miss). I'm a huge fan of Boom Supersonic to take its place. Recently in the UK we lost two airliners to this pandemic, Thomas Cook Airlines and Flybe both fell into the adminstrators.

I guess this looks like magnificent news to flight-shamers and climate-change activists.

<comment><USER57> To be clear, Thomas Cook collapsed well before covid. The end[1] occurred on September 23 2019.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook_Group#2019:_Final_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Cook_Group#2019:_Final_year_and_collapse)

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> I will miss the BA Club World business class on the upper deck. It was one of the more pleasant and relaxing ways of transatlantic travel.

<comment><USER8> My wife flew out upstairs from Heathrow to Washington to join me for a short break (I'd been working there for a week) in 2014, which was lovely.

We returned from Baltimore on a 767, immediate response "It's a bit shabby". which even compared with a 747 was entirely accurate.

I still prefer flying out of Baltimore though, much nicer airport, and I seem to get upgraded (either using miles or operational) every time. They've got 787s on the route now - was supposed to fly there this year just as the ban was brought in.

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> I've flown a lot domestically in my life, but because I live in the middle of the US (Houston), I've almost NEVER been on a super large plane like a 747. I'm kind of sad about that.

In the last few years I've been on a few big Airbus planes going to the mideast or the UK; they're nice. But they're not the icons that the 747 was.

</comment><comment><USER60> Some of the things I'll miss about the 747:

The speed. They fly at 580mph cruising. The others are around 550mph. I confirmed this in the IFE.

Cabin pressure. It was higher than the 777 and A380. It just felt better and less headache inducing.

Upper deck. I'm going to miss club world. We travel as a family and it felt so intimate being able to sit together and not packed in like tuna.

<comment><USER45> speed? seriously, you as a passenger have no chance to anyhow notice it or benefit from it. the difference is so negligible, that it basically never has any effect.

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> I was lucky enough to fly business on the top deck of a 747. I remember it felt like driving a building down the runway compared to the A380, regardless the 747 will always have a special place in my heart <3

</comment><comment><USER62> First sighting in "Die Hard 2" [http://www.impdb.org/images/3/32/2016-01-03_03h54_43.jpg](http://www.impdb.org/images/3/32/2016-01-03_03h54_43.jpg) Then flew it a few times. It's a legend.

</comment><comment><USER63> Unfortunately the whole covid situation didn't allow me to have a first long- planned flight on 747 right in April. I booked Qantas 747 just to feel the experience...

Now is seems like there will be no 747 passenger flights anymore and even fate of A380 is under huge question

</comment><comment><USER64> This news story has interesting timing. It's also got a long segment on the TV news right now

It comes right after the leader of the opposition highlighted during PMQs that BA have forced new, worse contracts on 30,000 staff

</comment><comment><USER65> It's simple -- 2 engine widebodies are more efficient than the 747, and carry less risk of being less than full. And airlines seem to have gotten tired of maintaining 4 engines at a go, for some reason.

<comment><USER66> 4 engines = 2x the maintenance cost, even if you ignore the fuel. And 2x the overhaul cost.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> Qantas has also retired their 747s. They are going to be stored in some desert area with low humidity, and eventually sold for parts.

This surprises me. Surely they could be sold or used at cargo planes?

<comment><USER68> How are they going to load cargo? Their nose doesnt tilt up like purpose built cargo planes

<comment><USER69> Side door: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747-400#747-400_Boeing_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747-400#747-400_Boeing_Converted_Freighter)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER70> Riding on a British airways 747 was one of the coolest experiences I ever had. The entire cabin had first class level comfort. This will surely be missed.

</comment><comment><USER71> Has the 747 transported to most human-distance (people * (km|miles)) of any other make&model transportation machine? I would imagine so...

<comment><USER26> I would guess it's actually the 737 or a320. Long haul flights are significantly less common.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> And here I thought these would be the ideal planes with enough space for proper physical distancing in pandemic times...

</comment><comment><USER73> The link to airlinegeeks.com is seting off a number of av warnings for me.

</comment><comment><USER74> The 1959 Coupe DeVille of the air.</comment>


Truecrypt warrant canary confirmed? - <AUTHOR> http://meta.ath0.com/2014/05/30/truecrypt-warrant-canary-confirmed/ <comment><USER2> The original headline ends in a question mark, cites one person from Twitter who claims a 2004 (?) conversion, and still provides no explanation why any government might possibly want to serve TrueCrypt a warrant, given that they don't store user data (unlike Lavabit) and all their source code was open anyway.

</comment><comment><USER3> Truecrypt is a high quality open source project that has been updated diligently for many years. For its developers to abandon it in such an _immature_ fashion was highly bizarre. The possibility that they were sending a deliberate signal with this act was one of my first thoughts. I don't consider the article posted here to be plausible evidence, but it certainly gives voice to my suspicions.

Truecrypt's developers, if they indeed live in the U.S., may have done as much as they can do. It is now up to the audit team to evaluate truecrypt as thoroughly as possible and, should truecrypt prove sound, it will be up to international teams to pick up the torch. It's certainly possible that a completely different country is cracking down on truecrypt's developers, but this action fits the NSA's modus operandi _perfectly_.

</comment><comment><USER4> Who is Alyssa Rowan, and why should I care that she thinks the TrueCrypt post is a warrant canary?

<comment><USER5> She runs [https://efchan.net/](https://efchan.net/).

<comment><USER6> What does an MLP chan have to do with Truecrypt?

<comment><USER7> Bugger all, it's just a random site I happen to host.

<comment><USER4> Could you verify that you are who you really say you are? And sorry for not knowing what you're associated with, a Google search for your name isn't very helpful in find out who you are. What relation do you have with the TrueCrypt devs?

EDIT: I also didn't realize that you had replied to my original comment, sorry about that.

<comment><USER7> No relation with the devs. Just a decade-old conversation about PGPdisk, IVs and trouble export laws might cause, so it's perfectly OK to not put _too_ much stock in it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm curious, do we have any definitive examples of other warrant canaries being triggered in public? One prominent example is rsync.net [1] and their canary has been publishing weekly updates for a long time.

[1] [http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt](http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt)

</comment><comment><USER9> A canary that no one knows about is a <understate>little</understate> pointless... nonetheless it _feels_ like a lavabit-esque shutdown. The intrigue continues.

<comment><USER10> Well isn't a warrant canary that is public knowledge just considered a method of breaking NSL silence? To be safe, a warrant canary would need to be plausibly deniable.

<comment><USER11> If I were a three letter agency who illegally threatened some crypto developer with unsavory things, willing to send him to Guantanamo or to outright kill him (as some people on HN obviously can imagine very well)... I'd just shrug my shoulders after this highly conspicuous way of shutting down the project and think "well played, Mr. Developer, no hard feelings".

Of course.

<comment><USER12> If anyone knows their identity and suspects the canary, then disappearance or death would hint strongly at the canary being true.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> How do NSL's work in practice in large organizations? This might not make sense for a small organization like Truecrypt, but if someone like Microsoft or Google receives an NSL, presumably multiple people have to see it and handle it -- what keeps one of them from taking a picture of it on their cell phone and leaking it anonymously? (Of course they need to sanitize the embedded metadata and timestamps.)

If they can't prove which specific employee leaked it, who do they punish?

<comment><USER6> I'd imagine it goes straight to the lawyers

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Don't jump to conclusions yet -- I'm still reading this analysis.

[https://pay.reddit.com/r/crypto/comments/26px1i/truecrypt_sh...](https://pay.reddit.com/r/crypto/comments/26px1i/truecrypt_shutting_down_development_of_truecrypt/chtf94s)

</comment><comment><USER15> The question remains how do they find out the dev's identity in the first place even if this was true; yet we don't even know who the hell Satoshi Nakamoto is really. Would secret agency knows who Satoshi Nakamoto is?

<comment><USER16> Didn't truecrypt website have a paypal donate button. So paypal definitely knows who they are.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> If it were a warrant canary. Doesn't stating that the update is obviously a canary put the true crypt team possibly in legal trouble? Communicating the warrant. Even cryptically is still communicating about the warrant.

</comment><comment><USER18> I think we won't actually know what happened until the TrueCrypt dev team is willing to step into the light.</comment>


Is this idea stupid? - <AUTHOR>

A mix of like yc news/myspace/meetup just for 'start-up'-ers?
A few features: -Meet people looking for co-founders
-Find people looking to co-found
-Rate peoples skill i.e. skill, endurance, persistence, attitude
-Organize demo days in your area
just a thought.Can I get some feedback please? <comment><USER2> No idea is stupid... just keep trying and learn from your mistakes.

I think you might be on the right track if you're thinking of new ways to find people to co-found with. Cofoundr exists, and News.YC exists, but have you ever wondered why people still complain about finding cofounders? Obviously, the problem still exists.

Some thoughts:

\- Instead of a demo day in your area, build a site where its easy for hackers to upload their Web apps and show them off to all the other users. You pay for the hosting and handle all the tedious server stuff, and I simply upload my code, click "Go", and the app goes live for a day or two. Users can upvote the projects that they think are the coolest, and hackers accumulate popularity points.

\- Maintain a "Top-List" of "best entrepreneurs", ranked by the number of votes that each person gets on Demo Days. Perhaps categorize this by the type of product each entrepreneur is interested in building. So if there is a Top 10 list for entrepreneurs building stuff that has something to do with mobile software, and I'm #2 on the list and you are #1, hey that looks like a promising team. At least, it's better than going blindly.

\- In addition to the Demo Day software, build a Web app that makes it easy for entrepreneurs/programmers to keep track of their hobby projects online and constantly display them to the world for everyone to see. Imagine a place where thousands of hackers all have their hobby stuff online. So I do a search for "mobile software" on the site, and I find 10 people that did some hacks for fun and are showing off their work. If I'm looking for a cofounder, I would contact the person who I thought had the best work.

Maybe the 3 things I listed here are crap, but my point is that you should constantly reiterate on a seemingly "dumb idea" because eventually it might turn into a winner.

<comment><USER2> As an add-on to that point:

Make sure what you are doing is SOLVING a user problem, not giving them a WAY to solve their problem. If you are making a site to help entrepreneurs find co-founders, you'd better deliver on that promise: if people that use your site can't find a co-founder within 3 weeks of trying, they are not going to come back again.

<comment><USER3> my god, you're right. that's why i'm no longer on okcupid. /sigh...

<comment><USER4> I have a feeling that the pay dating sites must work better and have more attractive people than the free ones, but I haven't yet been willing to pay to find out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> You're already skewing your feedback by titling the post "is this idea stupid". It should be more like "what do you think of my idea?"...and yes, it's stupid....j/k

<comment><USER6> This idea would work if you can license e-Harmony's matching algorithm (or build a similar one of your own) to pair people up with prospective co- founders. Unless you really know someone, you don't want to go into business with them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I am very happy to tell you that it already exists!!!!!

<http://www.bizfriendz.com/>

The part that sold me is that they spelled friends with a "z".

Seriously though: have you heard of gobignetwork.com? cofoundr.com? I think the ratings you mention would be meaningless. I don't think a social network is the best way to organize an event. I don't think social networks are good ways to meet cofounders. I think existing networks solve your other problems. Sorry to godzilla your tokyo, I may be wrong and/or stupid.

</comment><comment><USER8> Here's what I want. A social place for self-employed folks to work. Coffee shops these days are full of laptop jockeys. Proprieters hate it when we hog the booths, and we hate it when they charge for wireless.

Give me a place catered to the entrepreneurial types. BUT maintain the social+creative coffee shop vibe... I'm thinking along the lines of Diesel Cafe, not the Cambridge Innovation Center.

Charge membership fees, serve healthy meals, be open 24 hours, whatever. Start with Cambridge, then franchise around the world.

Naturally, there'd be an online component... your Hackspot account gives you access to the network, job board, etc etc.

Anyone know anything about starting a company in meatspace? =P

</comment><comment><USER9> It doesn't really seem like you are doing much that couldn't be accomplished with an existing social network. Or at least an OpenSocial / Facebook app.

<comment><AUTHOR> good point.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've posted before about this, so I apologize to anyone reading this for the second time. I'm currently working on a startup similar to this, based around the groups who were not accepted by ycombinator. A place to demo your startup, get feedback, and find co-founders. Also to find a place to stay if the group is planning on moving to SV, or anywhere for that matter. There are a few other features I'm currently implementing also. Overall, its just a place to keep each other motivated and help one another out. Nothing putting down ycombinator, but just a place to connect and share. I was going to have it up and running this week, however, I've been low on time lately. I should have something within the next week or two though.

</comment><comment><USER11> Are you trying to make money from it? If not, it might be a good idea. I don't think anybody will want to pay for it, and advertising tends to be poorly received by your target users.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not looking for any money on this, as long as the site pays for the server and domain name costs I'm happy.

<comment><USER12> maybe you can collaborate with cofoundr.com?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I have been thinking about same area for quite a while and not able to convince myself because there are many different sites with some partial information. And startup market has not large user base.. larger market <= more user and some day that returns more money compare to site with less user base.... well thats my thinking..

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I would more want to do it cause there is a need from what I can see.

I'm not interested in making it a huge revenue generating site.

As long as it sustains itself, I'd be happy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Its seems like a very competitive space and relatively small. Right away you are limiting yourself to entrepreneur types who have limited capital and hence arent an ideal target.

Mayve think about other larger groups that might have the same characteristics

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER15> It seems like everyone here has an idea and wants other people to follow them. If any of the YCnews lost souls are to come together many will have to abandon theirs.

<comment><USER16> We have a place to meet and discuss ideas:

news.yc.

Good enough for me, just remember to put contact information in your profile.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> No, it's not stupid.

</comment><comment><USER18> how many hacker trackers do we have now? 3 or 4?</comment>


OpenCV 4.0 Alpha - <AUTHOR> https://opencv.org/opencv-4-0-0-alpha.html <comment><USER2> FTA:

> The standard std::string and std::shared_ptr replaced hand-crafted > cv::String and cv::Ptr. Our parallel_for can now use the pool of > std::threads as the backend.

That's excellent news. It's a shame that in spite of C++11 being a standard for about 7 years and in spite of C++ having received two additional standard updates since then, there are still some C++ libraries that keep usong their redundant hand-crafted smart pointer and even multithreading primitives. Kudos on OpenCV to help C++ software maintainers.</comment>


British Parliament Hit by Cyberattack, Affecting Email Access - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/world/europe/british-parliament-cyberattack-hacking-london.html <comment><USER2> Based on the names mentioned I searched for their email addresses in password dumps and they all match the large 500M+ lists (anti public and exploit.in - covered here[0]) that have been available on some of the credential-stuffing and hacking forums since late last year. They are aggregate lists composed of MySpace, LinkedIn and other breaches.

It appears someone has grepped out parliament.uk emails from those leaks and then published it separately, the earliest mention of such a list that I can find online is from mid-May.

The credential stuffing and darkweb markets are full of such lists as the scammers attempt to make a dollar or two from content that is otherwise publicly available by slicing it in interesting or appealing ways.

I doubt any of the credentials would have worked against the parliament Office 365 login[1] as either the IT admins would have noticed, and/or the list is old enough where it would have been noticed far earlier plus Office 365 even without MFA enabled or enforced will usually require an email or SMS confirmation for a new device login or a login that doesn't match user pattern.

The story mentions they disabled logins, but it appears to still work. This is likely just a precaution from the IT department over what is a relatively minor issue since it is easier to pretend you're doing something rather than having to explain to the media that this is an old issue and not that big a deal.

[0] [https://www.cert.govt.nz/businesses-and- individuals/recent-t...](https://www.cert.govt.nz/businesses-and- individuals/recent-threats/anti-public-and-exploit-in-release/)

[1] [https://intranet.parliament.uk](https://intranet.parliament.uk)

<comment><USER3> [http://sprunge.us/HIYa](http://sprunge.us/HIYa)

It must be total chaos in the UK now! 110748 super secret government emails and passwords leaked on a hacker forum :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why don't these people use 2 factor auth like a yubikey? And not sms because it can be hacked and redirected. I know the reason, they are not wanting these non-technical foofaws to be slightly inconvenienced. And they'd lose their second factors even if they had them - too bad, you shouldn't be able to get an official email without it. Give everyone a couple of those keys, put one on their keychain, one in their computer at home, one in their work computer. They'd be so much safer.

</comment><comment><USER5> In what way have they been 'hacked'?

Constituents can email their MPs and I'd imagine they all share the same few email servers. It's not hard to imagine that someone thought they'd 'have a go' (as was the case during the election period), and the reaction by Parliament has so far been a precautionary one.

<comment><USER6> FTA: > stolen data revealed the private login details of 1,000 British members of Parliament and parliamentary staff, 7,000 police employees and more than 1,000 Foreign Office officials.

Not sure how that wouldn't be treated as a cyberattack. Note, the word used was not 'hack' - not all cyberattacks are hacks.

<comment><USER5> Seems the NYT changed the title to remove the 'hack' insinuation.

 _> stolen data revealed the private login details of 1,000 British members of Parliament and parliamentary staff, 7,000 police employees and more than 1,000 Foreign Office officials._

That was reported last week. The attacks happened months ago. (Why do I even bother?)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> To what extent are our security problems the result of feature creep and an inability to lock down simple protocols? For all the bloviating about national borders and so on, if a country can't secure its own legislature then its institutions are broken.

<comment><USER8> Not sure why this is downvoted. The main reason systems aren't secure is lack of simplicity.

To put it another way, pentesting is almost always the art of exploiting complexity. It's true that you can have a system that's both simple and broken, but that's the exception.

<comment><USER9> Some of the most effective security measures actually increase complexity.

Two-factor authentication increases complexity in every measurable way but mitigates against a number of softer attacks.

Adding encryption adds a ton of complexity but effectively removes all man-in- the-middle attacks.

The simplest way of storing passwords is in plaintext.

Privelege separation is far from the simplest way of structuring a daemon, but it effectively prevents exploits in the complex parts from allowing an attacker to gain remote root access.

Perhaps it is more that superfluous complexity is the problem.

<comment><USER8> I think we're talking past each other. Complexity probably refers to anything beyond essential complexity. In the systems you mention, they all lack complexity by that definition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> They should ban encryption to catch those hackers!

<comment><USER11> Off course they will

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> National institutions have indeed begun their long slide into irrelevance. Ray Kurzweil, a big shot at Google, already wrote about that. Anything that existed before the widespread commercialization of the internet cannot remain the same, after. I am waiting for news of the inevitable to break loose. A group of disgruntled people setting up internet infrastructure to literally organize the decimation of state officials. They will end up dying like flies. As soon as the first guys do that, there will be no stopping it. The national state uses force to enforce its views, while they no longer have a credible monopoly on the use of force.

</comment><comment><USER13> They've just got hacked, yet the NYT is already blaming the Russians.

</comment><comment><USER14> Real title:

> British Parliament Hit by Cyberattack, Affecting Email Access

Clickbait title. Access to email has been disabled as a precaution because passwords were being trafficked and there were attempts to access accounts.

<comment><USER15> Thanks! We've updated the title from "British Parliament Email Hacked". Submitters, please use the original title when possible: [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> "Bugger! My hard drive is encrypted and they're demanding bitcoins! Do any of you blokes know the pounds to bitcoins rate?"</comment>


JARR (Just Another RSS Reader) – "Public Profile" and "popular" Pages Available - <AUTHOR> https://jarr.herokuapp.com/popular <comment><AUTHOR> You can test JARR: [https://jarr.herokuapp.com/signup](https://jarr.herokuapp.com/signup)

Source code is available here: [https://github.com/JARR/JARR](https://github.com/JARR/JARR)

</comment><comment><USER2> You seem to be relying on the Browsers ability to decode and show the feeds... Not every browser can do this, and some (Chromium Portable in my case) just show the raw XML.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hello,

yes this page is just a list of the popular feeds recently added by the users. As you can have here: [https://pinboard.in/popular/](https://pinboard.in/popular/)

Maybe I should put the link of the site of the feed, instead of the feed link?

When you are authenticated a nice (I hope!) interface (based on React) displays the feeds and articles of the feeds.</comment></comment>


LinkedIn reveals new desktop design - <AUTHOR> https://www.producthunt.com/posts/linkedin-desktop-redesign <comment><USER2> Seems to be at least twice as slow (just how it "feels"). Nearly-blank pages and loading indicators everywhere. What is it about "modern" web design that does this?</comment>


It's hard to change a little. It's much easier to change a lot. - <AUTHOR> http://plpatterns.com/post/307982918/its-hard-to-change-a-little-its-much-easier-to

<comment><USER2> This reminds me of something my brother said about living in a foreign country with a very different culture. (At the time he was a Canadian living in Taiwan.) He said that you really need to immerse yourself in that culture because then your reactions will be right. When you get into trouble is after hanging out with people from your old culture - then you slip back into being a Westerner and things would start going wrong.

He had several examples of this from his personal experience.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting. My guess is that it's the same with learning a foreign language. i.e. if you really want to learn the language, it's probably orders of magnitude faster and cheaper with better result if you move to where it is natively spoken, as opposed to taking a class. Never tried it though.

<comment><USER3> Immersion is the best way to learn, and, in the US, you pay a very high premium for immersion classes. For example, Spanish immersion (20 hrs/wk) through Berlitz is over $4K/month and in Guatemala, around $800.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> The title is a bit misleading, I think. Change always happens incrementally (evolution doesn't leap, it refines); immersion ensures that the incremental changes are locked into a specific pattern and focus.

The image used in the post was a bit misleading too. The change in direction of that bicycle would only be _forward_ along the path, not sideways up the groove of the path (unless the bike was jumped or the rider dismounted and carried it).

The essence of the article has a positive message though, change is a given, immersion is the key concept I think the author was attempting to convey that other responders have already made mention of.

</comment><comment><USER5> I seem to keep returning to this idea.

1 year ago: <http://akkartik.name/blog/resolutions>

3 years ago: [http://www.reddit.com/comments/4e1f/the_barriers_to_starting...](http://www.reddit.com/comments/4e1f/the_barriers_to_starting_your_own_business_why/c4fa9)

<comment><USER6> The comment about mindsets is especially poignant.

I didn't think this submission was that great though. Waking up earlier when you have a reason to do so will often work better than if you have no real reason to do so. And the other two examples were about software rather than habits, which I see as two different beasts.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Have anyone traveled the world while working as a freelancer? - <AUTHOR> If so, what kind of work did you have? How was it? Do you have any tips or suggestions? <comment><USER4> I've done it for around 3 years. My only tip would be for you to ask yourself why do you want to do those two things at the same time. From my personal experience doing both, you don't actually work productively, nor do you immerse in local cultures and get to enjoy the travelling part. Eventually I realized that I need to choose one, travelling became a distraction.

So my advice would be: don't do both at the same time.

<comment><USER5> I've thought about doing this myself. I don't have quite that level of revenue yet however. I was thinking of traveling the country and visiting various sci- fi conventions, living out of the discounted hotel rooms that often accompany such events, and spending my copious free time enjoying the entertainment of con-life.

Travel is a pain tho. Especially if you have pets. I've got a cat who hates traveling, and we are best friends, so it wouldn't be right to leave him alone constantly. Ah well.

<comment><USER6> > I've got a cat who hates traveling, and we are best friends

Awww! I'm in a similar situation. Have you considered getting a small camper van and customizing it for the cat (litterbox, water dish, food station etc) and travelling around the country in that. Would save on hotels also and once you are done, you can sell the van and made back most of your $ invested in purchasing it. I'm toying with this idea.

<comment><USER5> That's a really great idea! Thanks for the tip.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've been nomadic for the past two years. I quickly learned that travel is a lot of work. Every time you move, you need to figure out where to go, where to stay, how to eat, what to do, etc. if you do this every week, it consumes much of your productive working hours. Much better, for me at least, to stay in the same place for a minimum of 2 to 3 months.

</comment><comment><USER8> One bit of advice. Traveling solo gets rough after a while (say 3-4 months) because of the loneliness factor. Easier to do in 'bursts' in my opinion. In fact, I think a model of going on sabbatical every 1 to 1.5 years or so makes more sense. You could easily do that in between jobs.

<comment><USER9> What do people do with their homes and stuff? As a renter I don't know how I could possibly pull that off.

<comment><USER10> I would put my things in storage when I went travelling, and leave the lease. Usually quite affordable, even with the big brand name storage firms.

<comment><USER9> Finding a new rental every time sounds like too much of hassle for me to have it on a schedule like that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I freelanced for a while in Australia, it was a wonderful time. Worked at a startup, and a larger app agency. The pay was WAY better than here in Sweden, also the much lower taxes did wonders for my economy.

I had a great plan, just got a temporary working visa, booked a flight and a crappy inn in the middle of Sydney. A week after me and my partner arrived at Sydney I started looking for some short 1-3 months contracts and got a few (20+) opportunities. I did a couple of interviews and found a nice startup that had a good vibe, and that wasn't _cheap_. Did a little bit of work, a lot of travelling and had a great time throughout.

I'd say go for it, the worst thing that can happen is that you go back home with the feeling that you appreciate your home a LOT more!

<comment><USER12> Can you say more about how you found contract work? I've heard bad things about ODesk and similar sites.

<comment><USER13> You can get contracts that are just like normal jobs on sites like seek.com.au in Australia. My family and I moved to Sydney in February when I got offered a 3 month contract. It's been extended twice now. Once it finishes, we'll do some travelling before I take another contract.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> One of my early startup hires was remote, started remote and is still remote. Over three years he's stayed all over the world for weeks/months at a go. Five continents! Makes his daily reports no problem, handles his stuff well. Gets to really experience a place when you there for four weeks.

I see it being easy for him, single, job that don't care, AirBNB.

When we hired him I was nervous about that pattern. But he demonstrated his skill and tenacity so quick. Remote workers get a touch more scrutiny, remote+travel, from this employer view, gets even more scrutiny.

Really, tho, solid members of the team can basically live how they want, IDGAF, just deliver.

</comment><comment><USER15> Yes, I did it for about 8 years, all solo. For a few years I did rent a cheap house, which I used to travel back to when I was in between trips, but then I redirect all my mail to my moms house and went full hobo and lived out of tiny backpack.

Any tips? Just go for it. Dont plan for staying 5 years, just do one month and see what is it like, then return back and plan another trip. Experiment with various length of your trips and various locations. Find what works for you.

I did settled down in 2013, so how did I see that in perspective? It was fun and interesting, but memories did fade out a bit and it feels like it happen to somebody else now. My work went ok-ish, I did good amount of work, earn some money and spent it all on travelling. Basically all friendships back home went away and I had to start again at 30.

I would do that again in heartbeat, but ask yourself why you want to do it. It is not like you are helping yourself in areas of connections or career and you will have to live with it for the rest of your life.

</comment><comment><USER16> There's a pretty big community of people that are doing this. There's a lot of Facebook groups, subreddits, and slack groups. Check out Nomad List [1] and /r/digitalnomad [2].

[1] [https://nomadlist.com](https://nomadlist.com)

[2] [http://reddit.com/r/digitalnomad](http://reddit.com/r/digitalnomad)

</comment><comment><USER17> I'm in the UK and when I graduate I'd like to eventually become a remote developer in London (or somewhere else if the money is good). I plan to establish basecamp in my dirt cheap (relatively speaking) hometown in Poland B and live my life on a UK salary, eastern Poland living costs and frequent multiple-week working holidays to places with an acceptable timezone difference.

Is there anyone here who's done something similar or can comment on what difficulties I might face?

<comment><USER18> I'm currently working remotely for a London-based company. Incidentally, also from PL (Warsaw). Difficulties? The usual with remote work: a bit of loneliness, in 2017 video still sucks, and text is bad at carrying contexts, requiring more careful communication. Oh, and EU VAT is a minefield in PL. Otherwise the plan is sound, if the employer can be convinced to hire you as a remote worker.

<comment><USER10> In my experience it's much easier to get a remote job for a company that you first do non-remote work for, if only for a trial period of a month or something. Even non-remote firms will agree to this if you're good enough, and live close enough to come over every once in a while.

<comment><USER18> I actually spent the first month with the team.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Yes, we are traveling full time while freelancing and building [http://MoonlightWork.com](http://MoonlightWork.com). We just finished spending the summer in Mexico City, and are continuing onto Denver, LA, and Buenos Aires over the next few months the.

Our tentative plan to avoid travel fatigue is to stay places for three months at a time. While both working and traveling, it's important to stay longer so that you have enough time to explore.

We are also stopping back in the States fairly often, which is helpful for maintaining professional contacts, meeting with clients, and avoiding burnout.

Some tips in no particular order:

\- if you rent an Airbnb for multiple months, you get billed monthly (like rent). Monthly discounts vary a lot for listings, so pay attention to them.

\- we like having coworking separate from our apartment in order to have some work/life separation and a daily routine

\- if you want a second monitor while traveling, an iPad with Duet Display works great

\- A vpn like Cloak is helpful while abroad. Turns out that many sites, eg CA DMV, are limited to IPs in the States!

\- We use Google Fi for cellphone plans. It has great global coverage

</comment><comment><USER20> I did it for 15 months. I had a consistent gig that would pay the bills that I expected to be working on 4 hours a week so I decided on the following:

\- Move to each city for 1 month (allow immersion in culture)

\- The place needs to have privacy & wi-fi (no shared hostels)

\- Use meet-up/expats/dances to meet people

\- Research each city before hand on things to do/currency/language barriers/transportation (Austria, for instance, doesn't use Google maps)

It was one of the best times of my life, but it wasn't just pure happiness. It was very introspective, most of my time was spent alone, but I made so many life-long friends as well.

Loneliness/homesick is definitely a factor.

</comment><comment><USER21> As nnd mentioned it's pretty difficult to do both at the same time (freelancing and traveling).

A few notes from my past experience that may be useful:

1) My first real remote working gig was as a dev/tech writer for a software company. I worked out of an apartment in BKK initially before relocating to Malaysia and then Philippines. You feel like you have a base rather than constantly moving around. As I was a remote working I didn't have to look for new freelancing gigs. This approach worked really well for me. This was not a freelance gig though.

2) Career break. I've had a few of these over the years. I saved hard, then quit my job. I then took a year out, travelled etc. before coming back to look for another job.

3) What I do now. I work for three months of the year on (freelance) contract in UK. I then take 9 off - that's my target anyway. It does vary a bit as sometimes the length of a contract does vary. During the 9 months off I do travel. The great advantage of this is when I'm on a freelance gig I focus on that, but when I'm off I can travel without having to think about work - <USER2> all. In order to be able to do this I had to make some pretty big changes - <USER3> sold my house, my car, I live on less than 1K a month. It's not for everyone but I love it. I would not go back to my old life in a million years.

There have been a few threads of this nature recently - I guess you could check my comments to find those other threads.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER22> I went freelancing to Mexico for a couple months and ended up staying 8 years (so far) and getting married.

I kept doing web dev for a few clients back at home, and started doing a lot of interactive stuff for museums which was super fun (Flash, Arduino, Cinder, OpenFrameworks, Unity3D, etc) although not very well payed. Now I'm back at web and mobile dev at an education company but I always get the itch of moving somewhere else.

</comment><comment><USER23> It's comforting seeing the same response in this thread (maybe this thread is attracting birds of the same feather?).

I could as well (my team even encouraged it), but I enjoy being in my hometown with my family and friends. I've been to Europe a few times, so it doesn't seem as adventurous.

To be completely honest, I would rather save that money and put it in a mutual fund, and I'm only 28 lol.

<comment><USER24> If you are doing it right you can put _more_ money in your mutual fund. The idea for lots of people doing it is to earn, for example, a western european income but have eastern european/south east asian living expenses. I live in Zurich and will spend way less money travelling next year than staying at home.

<comment><USER25> It all depends _how_ you live. You can live frugally, also in Zurich.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I did this for a bit over 10 years while selling software online. It was wonderful. A few tips:

1\. When you try a new place out, initially aim for a cheap accommodation that you can instantly move out of. Sometimes this literally means a shitty hotel with cockroaches, and that's fine. Get a feel of the place's vibe. Sometimes it's a few days to decide it's not where you want to spend time in; other times it takes a few weeks to decide to settle (or not). (Aside on this: don't forget that hotels can't sell empty rooms from yesterday; arriving at 10pm gives you serious leverage to get a huge discount.)

2\. As you're deciding whether to settle, go out. Often. Your initial set of contacts will usually be people you meet in bars, incubators, meet-ups, etc. Whatever your thing is, by all means don't stay at home in your earlier weeks. You're going to be living there for the people and the location's vibe much more than for the actual city.

3\. Once you decide to settle, consider a flat share over a private flat. This allows to meet locals much faster. If you prefer a private flat for any reasons, don't hesitate to go through real estate agents if you can sensibly afford it. It costs extra but it'll spare yourself from visiting random crack shacks - work out how much you earn per hour, and contrast it with the time wastage due to visiting places you'd never want to live in.

4\. Forget about long-term relationships unless you plan to settle. Every date you'll have will tell you they love to travel, but in reality nearly all will actually mean they love to go on vacation while having a nest somewhere, and can't fathom not having a nest that they call home.

5\. You'll meet your future spouse some day or another. It's probably time to settle (in a private flat) when you do.

</comment><comment><USER27> I run a Machine Learning consulting business. Been fully remote without a 'home base' for about a year. Really loving it so far and plan on continuing for the foreseeable future!

My advice would be to spend at least a month in each place - it's also a discontinuity point in accommodation pricing. AirBnB snaps into monthly discounts and it's the minimum period for short term rental. Definitely just google "city name short term rental" and look at the local sites - you can find some amazing apartments for a month at a time.

I'm traveling with my girlfriend who works in online marketing. I believe it makes it a lot easier but we've been together the entire time so I can't make a fair comparison. I can see how it might get lonely but I really enjoy hanging out with the girlfriend and go to meetups while traveling so haven't felt lonely at all...

</comment><comment><USER28> I could ... but for some weird reason I'm still sitting in my hometown.

I occasionally do trips but I'm not traveling the world, maybe next year I'll spend some time in other countries.

<comment><USER29> "Digital nomad" is far from the only lifestyle enabled by remote work. Another example (which strongly appeals to me) is being able to move somewhere you can afford enough agricultural land to get a smallholding off the ground.

I image that will translate into less, rather than more, long-haul travel. But definitely tempting should the right opportunity arise.

<comment><USER28> Would you then keep the land and move permanently to that location, or would you just sell it after a few years?

<comment><USER29> For me, ideally permanent. I'd like to get the chance to know one place, really really well.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Tips:

The cloud is your friend. Try to keep important things available via internet.

If you can take family, SO or friends with you, it helps mitigate the loneliness factor people are talking about here. Also: online forums can be a good way to keep in touch with a consistent group of people as well.

As others are saying, traveling a lot can seriously cut into work time. So, one important trick is to ruthlessly cut expenses.

Get a virtual mail address. It doesn't solve everything, but it is a nice thing to have.

</comment><comment><USER31> Just got done doing this for the last year. Worked for myself + my own business (not really a freelancer), but maybe you'll find the lessons helpful.

[https://impossiblehq.com/one-year-travel- lessons/](https://impossiblehq.com/one-year-travel-lessons/)

</comment><comment><USER32> 5 years. Documented the story + transition from freelancer ==> digital nomad blogger ==> Travel Channel host ==> Wearable Tech CEO on my older site [http://hackthesystem.com](http://hackthesystem.com) (no longer updated).

</comment><comment><USER33> I do since 4 years ago as a developer :)

</comment><comment><USER34> Did it for the past year.

IT takes a toll, a toll.

Sysadmin</comment>


Beijing From Above, aka How I was police detained for flying a Quadcopter - <AUTHOR> http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2014/06/19/dji-quadcopter-china-detention/

<comment><USER2> Well, you are flying a semi-toy without proper safety near people, buildings, above roads, cars, etc on a tourist site. An arrest might be slightly over the top, but this should not be allowed.

I'm a model RC pilot for 20 years and these kind of "stunts" are hurting the hobby. At least ask for permission next time.

A phantom only has 4 motors, and the quality is "meh" \- there is hardly any 2nd control (fa I have tripple recievers in my jets, if one RC system fails I still regain control over another radio).

It has a "failsafe" \- i=even if it works it's still not really good in an urban area. GPS signals might be weak (flyaway danger) and it's only flies to 25 meters when returning to home. It could fly into a tower or even not reach proper 25 meter when the 3D GPS lock is weak or disengaged.

My 2 cents. Sorry. Please people, don't fly above crowded areas. I've seen a Phantom hit a car it's almost 1KG of deadweight when it comes down. It's only a matter of time until someone gets hurt.

<comment><USER3> Part of the problem with these devices is accessibility. It's been common for a long time for people doing RC to get involved in clubs, build their own aircraft, understand how the aircraft works (how it flies, its engine, its radio components).

Quadcopters seem totally 'plug and play'.

I'm involved (somewhat) in high-altitude balloon flights and we have a similar problem. People want to be able to buy a kit of everything they need to launch a balloon into the stratosphere. There's been a lot of resistance in the UKHAS because we want people to learn about the entire process (and that includes safety).

<comment><USER4> Accessibility is an issue. Technology that was military-grade only 1 decade ago (UAV's, powerful model rockets which can be converted to guided missiles) is available for anyone to buy online today.

With great buying power comes great responsibiliy.

<comment><USER5> go home ur drunk , rc models were accessible long before that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Why do I get the impression that this guy was really, really, _really_ lucky? Certainly more lucky than I'd imagine him being if he did a similar thing in the USA next to some FBI/CIA buildings.

<comment><USER7> He's lucky it was in China and not in the US and that he was not a chinese. I've had friends doing a strip tease in front of a group of cops, other smoke weed not far from a police station, and a lot of other stupid crap. The fact that you're a foreigner they will allow a lot of things.

Actually I had my fair share of police encounters in France as well and it never went bad. The last I remember was asking cops to take me in their cars to a club (I was completely drunk), they told me they were not a taxi company. I then told them they had to take me because I was inebriated, they just laughed at me and left.

In 2 weeks in the US I got arrested twice. Once for eating a sandwich 5meters from people drinking alcohol in the street. Then the second time, while I was going to court for that stupid shit I got arrested for going through the subway gate twice in less than 15 minutes even though I had an unlimited pass.

/rant over. Cops are cool in a lot of places. Not in the US.

<comment><USER5> whats wrong with going twice through the subway gate? Also since when you can get arrested for eating a sandwich?

<comment><USER7> > whats wrong with going twice through the subway gate?

They told me I was cheating the system. When really I was confused about what subway to take so I went back and asked the girl in the booth for help.

> ...

because I knew the people walking 5 meters ahead of me so I stopped to watch them getting arrested, and stayed 5 minutes around, so eventually they came towards me and my friends and arrested us also. We were so shocked we didn't ask why. Kept us an hour in the cold looking through our stuff etc... Tossed my sandwich to the ground (and I told them that it was littering) and finally convoked us to the court for "drinking in the streets".

<comment><USER5> us is a truly retarded country.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The story was definitely interesting, and the Chinese authority actually acted very leniently.

Additionally, the footage was amazing, sometimes I forget how beautiful that city is on days with little smog :)

</comment><comment><USER9> The shots are beautiful, totally worth it. I also forget how great Beijing can be in clean air.

<comment><USER10> The views were beautiful but the scene transitions in the video got irritating. I stopped watching after a while.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Well, Chinese sky space is tightly regulated. If you are a law-abiding citizen, just try to learn them first, then post some article with less- misleading titles...

</comment><comment><USER12> For a second I thought he was tortured with cupping glasses, but no, that seems to have been self-inflicted torture...

</comment><comment><USER13> "Police detained"? Aka "arrested"?

<comment><USER14> I'm bothered by all the extreme political correctness to the absurd trends lately.

<comment><USER15> Er, depending on your country, they are different things. In the UK, you can be detained by police for a short period of time (e.g. during a stop-check or search on the street), but it isn't an arrest, you're "just" prevented from leaving whereever you are for a short period of time. If you are arrested, it means you are taken to a police station where a whole lot of rights/procedures/paperwork kicks in. Different countries have different points where they hit the dividing line between detaining and arresting.

<comment><USER13> > If you are arrested, it means you are taken to a police station where a > whole lot of rights/procedures/paperwork kicks in. Different countries have > different points where they hit the dividing line between detaining and > arresting.

I'm not sure that's true. On every UK police program I've seen (mostly traffic-related - Road Wars, Police Interceptors, etc), frequently they'll arrest someone at the roadside, then de-arrest them when they've finished their inquiries.

<comment><USER16> This is the first time I've heard the term 'de-arrest', but it does indeed exist:

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/mar/01/law.emmabrockes](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/mar/01/law.emmabrockes) "According to section 30, subsection (7) and (7A) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984, to "de-arrest" is to allow that "a person who has been arrested under any act of law at a place other than a police station, shall be released before reaching a police station if a constable is satisfied that there are no grounds for keeping him under arrest". Unlike being released with no further action, being de-arrested means that the record of the initial arrest is removed."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> What device is a Samsung Nexus Android (S4)?

<comment><USER18> [http://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_nexus_i9250-4219.php](http://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_nexus_i9250-4219.php)

<comment><USER17> Thanks. Tried googling it at all I got was Samsung Galaxy S4 vs the Nexus.

Although that link says known as the samsung galaxy nexus 3.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> once I was astronaut detained

</comment><comment> nznd-yyt No zuo no die why you try?

</comment><comment><USER20> TL;DR --> no jail

</comment><comment><USER21> Worst "I have a dji phantom" blog post ever :-)

</comment><comment><USER22> I wonder why second group stopped by, the explanation doesn't seem plausible to me... did you check the quadcopter for any signs of tampering? Anyway, nice shots!</comment>


How to run a ruby conference (and how much it cost) - <AUTHOR> http://blog.andycroll.com/2011/05/16/running-reddotrubyconf-2011/

<comment><USER2> I've had the exact opposite experience with single-track conferences. There was little "just right" content. Either it was too basic, too advanced, or great but lacked the time to properly dive in.

As a speaker, though a single track would expose my topic to people who might not have seen it before, I'll take 6 engaged people over a room of bored people any day of the week. For me, speaking is a symbiotic relationship, you get some energy from the audience.

Single track confs seem a bit forced. Otherwise very cool insights on setting up a conf. Congrats.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think I mainly object to conferences that sprawl across large numbers of tracks for no reason for great chunks of the event. A partial dual-track _can_ be fine, if the tracks are very well defined, but it's tough to create that shared experience.

I'm pretty pro-barcamp, if you're looking for that highly engaged audience. I just find it's best not to try and do too much at one event. Plus when you're doing your first, one track is plenty!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Django vs. Flask - <AUTHOR> I am noob to programming, python, and of course web development. Which framework django, or flask to start learning? <comment><USER2> Flask for learning from the ground up. Django after coming to the realization that large Flask projects end up cobbling together 80% of what Django offers, usually poorly.

<comment><USER3> Sort-of true on your second point. Flask gives you more room to organize the project how you want: if you don't have experience doing this then yeah, you'll make a mess. However, with experience comes more power. You aren't forced into doing things the "Flask way" because there is no "Flask way."

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It depends on the application. Do you care about how things work inside your database? Do you want to understand how the subsystems of your app (like authentication, security, the API, etc) work? Flask allows you (and forces you) to make your choices explicit. Django makes the decisions for you and hides its workings under layers of abstraction.

I can see using Django to rapidly prototype some kind of CRUD app, but on the other hand, you could just use Wordpress for that. Flask seems like it would be a superior platform for engineering anything non-trivial, especially if you care about how it works.

<comment><USER3> > I can see using Django to rapidly prototype some kind of CRUD app, but on > the other hand, you could just use Wordpress for that. Flask seems like it > would be a superior platform for engineering anything non-trivial, > especially if you care about how it works.

I feel like I'm replying a lot in this thread!

I think it's the other way around. If you want to QUICKLY prototype something, use Flask: it's light weight, and your app will _literally_ be one hundred- line file + some templates.

If you know you're going to use much of the common Django tools, use Django. Django projects are usually harder to spin up in my experience.

I wouldn't relate Django to Wordpress at all. It'd be tough to get a Wordpress type platform from scratch in Django OR Flask.

<comment><USER5> Use cookie cutter Django and just prototype in Django. Maybe 50 more lines than flask but it was a got clone not code you wrote.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> My suggestion for beginners:

\- If you want to do simple apps that do not touch the DB, or any kind of persistence, you can start with Flask. Much simpler to start.

\- For a more integrated experience on web development, including DBs, use Django. Their tutorial is very very good: [https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.10/intro/tutorial01/](https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.10/intro/tutorial01/)

I teach these subjects in a local university to BSc and MSc students, and since I want them to learn fast and lots of functionalities regarding web dev, I go directly to Django (after teaching them basic http with python and sockets - like this: [http://joaoventura.net/blog/2017/python- webserver/](http://joaoventura.net/blog/2017/python-webserver/)).

</comment><comment><USER7> You should try both. Choose a project and implement it using the two.

Start with a basic todo list. Then add support for permissions. Then add support for versioned entries. Then add a REST layer on top.

</comment><comment><USER8> You can get pretty far with Flask. You'll need an ORM, so you'll likely chuck SQLAlchemy in. Then you'll want easier access to SQLAlchemy, sorta like, you know, django does it, so you pick up [https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask- sqlalchemy](https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask-sqlalchemy).

But you can't use pure SQLAlchemy models (easily), since this otherwise great extension for flask doesn't support it ([https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask- sqlalchemy/pull/250](https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask-sqlalchemy/pull/250), yes I'm in the thread).

You'll fork it or brew your own code to get declarative models working right. Kinda time consuming, but at least your models can be pulled in by _any_ python code, and aren't tied down to a framework (That's what you were avoiding from the first place, wasn't it?)

Then you'll pick up WTForms ([https://wtforms.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](https://wtforms.readthedocs.io/en/latest/)), another excellent library. And you'll miss having Django ORM's rich form and model-backed validation. So you'll try wtforms-alchemy, [https://github.com/kvesteri/wtforms- alchemy](https://github.com/kvesteri/wtforms-alchemy).

Then you'll begin to see why Django makes sense after using Flask for a while. Django pulls in all the essential stuff and supports it well.

And top of that, django's addons like django-extensions ([https://django- extensions.readthedocs.io](https://django-extensions.readthedocs.io)), which gives you Werkzeug's debugger if you use ./manage.py runserver_plus. And ./manage.py shell_plus, which integrates with ptpython/ipython/bpython ([https://django- extensions.readthedocs.io/en/latest/shell_plu...](https://django- extensions.readthedocs.io/en/latest/shell_plus.html)).

Django rest framework, DRF for short ([http://www.django-rest- framework.org/](http://www.django-rest-framework.org/)), which is very mature at this stage, runs circles around Flask API. Flask API is inspired by DRF. You could also try [https://flask-restful.readthedocs.io](https://flask- restful.readthedocs.io), but after all that, you'll be missing that tight model support.

You'll _love_ flask. The code is top tier and exemplary. The testsuites are a dream and are very clear. Documentation is awesome. It feels good to code in it. But django feels good to code in as well.

Django's ORM is very mature. It's easier than SQLAlchemy, and despite SQLAlchemy's purity, and documentation - even better than flask's - Django's ORM does the trick for pretty much anything, even foreign databases I've interacted with. Another thing, QuerySet's are a charm, a lot of django's addons like django-filters, django-rest-framework and django-tables2 are built on top of its versatility.

Another thing Flask community ends up having to clone from Django is django- debug-toolbar [https://github.com/django-debug-toolbar/django-debug- toolbar](https://github.com/django-debug-toolbar/django-debug-toolbar). See [https://flask-debugtoolbar.readthedocs.io](https://flask- debugtoolbar.readthedocs.io).

Again, I love flask, but when I realized that I'm just going to end up reinventing django with my flask app anyway, I started going with django on new projects. I haven't turned back, but still check out flask and sqlalchemy to see what's happening now and then.

<comment><USER4> I think the first objection one would raise is that you don't _need_ an ORM at all. It all depends on the application, of course, but ORM means giving up a lot of control (and transparency, and understanding) of your database in exchange for a few shortcuts regarding things like M:M links.

<comment><USER3> IMO, if you're using an ORM because you want many-to-many to work in a neat way, then you're using an ORM for the wrong reasons.

Use an ORM because tools like this: [https://marshmallow.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](https://marshmallow.readthedocs.io/en/latest/) work really well with it.

And tools for migrations: [https://sqlalchemy- migrate.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](https://sqlalchemy- migrate.readthedocs.io/en/latest/) start to make sense in your code.

You don't need an ORM to do either of those things, but it makes things a hell of a lot more organized. Makes the database easy to understand from your code. Makes things like "testing from a blank database" really nice.

You don't ever _need_ an ORM, but for 90% of projects you'll use Flask and a Database for, it makes your life a lot nicer.

<comment><USER4> I actually wrote a blog post about my experimentation with ORM (here: [https://joeclark.svbtle.com/understanding-the-m-in- mvc](https://joeclark.svbtle.com/understanding-the-m-in-mvc)). From the viewpoint of a database geek, somebody who cares about his database, those gadgets you linked are further reasons to dislike ORM, because they do more of what ORM does: take away transparency and control in exchange for "shortcuts". And what happens when those tools fail? ("migrate" is particularly screwy).

No, it's a matter of philosophy. The newbie who has learned to code without ever being taught SQL, and the employee of an "agile" app sweatshop who doesn't care about the quality of his code or data, may prefer ORM for its' quick-and-dirtiness, or may use it by default because he knows no better way. I'm not saying that's wrong, but, there are other philosophies. There is the whole "craftsmanship" idea out there, that we should actually care about making things well. Jobs and Wozniak for example supposedly were adamant that the _insides_ of Apple computers were designed well. If you care about your database and want to use special features like triggers, procedures, recursive queries in Postgres, etc., then ORM is about as helpful as clamshell packaging.

<comment><USER3> This is a good point, but it can definitely be applied to any abstraction. I don't think ORMs are the best use of abstraction, but I think they're far from the worst use. For most applications they let you do a lot more a lot quicker without knowing a lot of SQL.

> And what happens when those tools fail?

I haven't used any of these tools that don't let me fall back on raw SQL or writing my own migration in SQL and including it in my code (outside of the DB). So, I haven't had this problem, honestly! Most DB problems I've had are related to _design_. There is an argument there to be had: "Do ORMs encourage bad database design?" but it's a different topic, in my opinion.

> There is the whole "craftsmanship" idea out there, that we should actually > care about making things well.

Making a website is a completely different process than making a chair, or remodeling a kitchen, or designing hardware for a computer.

I absolutely make technology that is great, and I do take pride in my work, but if I didn't use an ORM it'd take me much longer to make: and the application would be much less maintainable.

> If you care about your database and want to use special features like > triggers, procedures, recursive queries in Postgres, etc., then ORM is about > as helpful as clamshell packaging.

I use all these things all the time. I've created migrations in Django to create my Postgres FTS trigger function. Now all these raw-SQL migrations are stored very nicely in their own space, and in version control. And it's just like I typed them into the SQL prompt: but I can just look in my codebase and see what I did :)

You can'd even do sub-selects nicely in Django ORM, forget recursive queries. But you can use raw SQL when you need it!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> You'll learn more starting with Flask because it provides less layers and components (and a far smaller codebase). Eventually you'll build up several of the pieces yourself or combine various libraries and eventually realize it would be much simpler to rewrite in Django. At least that's how it's worked out over the past few years for me on anything over 100 lines or so.

</comment><comment><USER10> I'm also a noob. To hack together a quick app to hit a few of the instagram endpoints I went with flask. In my case, it was just a matter of writing a few annotated methods, and plugging in some template files and I was up and running in a few hours!

I'm now looking at SQL alchemy and thinking I might try to taking another look at Django...

</comment><comment><USER11> Django - but my advice is not to start from two scoops - its a great book but your best bet is to work off the djangoproject, or djangogirls tutorials as thats the common project structure. once you have a handle on this start reading two scoops

</comment><comment><USER12> Django because there are a lot more resources, and the community is pretty welcoming to beginners -- so it's very easy to find help.

If you are in need of a beginner-friendly tutorial, I would recommend the Djangogirls tutorial.

</comment><comment><USER13> Although we use Django, I think Flask is a great starting point for learning web development.</comment>