HTML is object code - <AUTHOR> http://rondam.blogspot.com/2009/08/html-is-object-code.html

<comment><USER2> Ah yes. The old "x is hard. Writing x sometimes gets messy. I don't want to deal with all the intricacies and details of x. I know, I'll create an abstraction layer!"

Of course, in the best of all possible worlds, you'll end up with a perfect abstraction layer which is powerful enough to allow you to do everything you need, while hiding all of the the gory details. In the worst case, you end up with a leaky abstraction. Suddenly you need to know not only the underlying language, but also how the compiler works.

That's not to say that all abstraction layers are evil. C vs. machine code is an example of an abstraction that works well. You rarely need to dive down into the machine code and you can, to a large extent, be ignorant of how the compiler works and still be able to be a decent C programmer.

There's no doubt that developing for the web can be quite hairy and sometimes you wish you didn't have to deal with all of the compatibility issues etc. It's possible that the solution is something like Vaadin, which lets you develop web applications as if they were Java desktop applications. But I'm not convinced just yet.

I guess the real question is, what exactly is the problem with HTML? If the problem is that HTML isn't abstract enough, then yes, an abstraction layer would be the answer. But if the problem is something else then slapping an extra layer of complexity on top of HTML won't magically solve those problems.

<comment><USER3> _I guess the real question is, what exactly is the problem with HTML?_

HTML is ok, it's CSS that's got the problem. It's the difference between Microsoft Word and Publisher; CSS doesn't provide enough layout primitives to do common web layouts easily. Instead, you have to specifically structure your HTML for it and layer on the
 tags and copious amounts of CSS code.

<comment><USER4> The problem is that, unlike Word vs. Publisher, we don't have a set medium that we're working toward (e.g. paper.) When CSS was created, it controlled and formatted all the things that browsers could present, which wasn't very darn much. Then we thought of more things for browsers to do, and had to make our CSS much more complicated to get the same effects.

To give an even older parallel, when HTML was created, _it_ had formatting primitives that were just fine for the browsers that existed at the time. Then, as people wanted more from browsers, spacer gifs and other such aberrations were invented to allow us to achieve our complex ideals, until we invented CSS and things were simple again, for a time.

The point is, the web is an ever-changing medium. We create a language for easily expressing _existing_ web designs, and then set our sights higher and bludgeon that design language into expressing _new_ (and previously unachievable) designs—such as, say, multi-column text layout—until we create a new web design language and the process starts over. This isn't a problem with CSS; no matter _what_ we create, it will _never_ be enough. There's only so much you can do with ink on the boundaries of a page of paper; there'll never be a limit to new ways to lay out shapes and vectors in an infinitely scrollable, resizable, dynamic, animated and _reactive_ space that can be variously interpreted by different clients.

That's not to say CSS isn't showing its age. It's just that this isn't shouldn't be considered a _failing_ in the original design of CSS; rather, it should be seen as a sign of experience for web designers, that they now have newer, larger ideas that their smaller, brittler tools aren't up to expressing. Perhaps this is the best argument of all for separating content from presentation—if they're separate, we can replace CSS with something more robust (and then replace _that_ with something even robust-er-er) without touching the content itself.

<comment><USER5> First, I agree wholeheartedly that the language we use is never powerful enough for us to express ourselves. I'd say that even goes for print... but whatever.

I spent a few hours reading old RFC's because of this whole thread.

It looks to me like rfc 1942 got popular, and the CSS folks never came to grips with that. CSS1 is pretty given the constraints of the day. I think about CSS in two terms (I don't think there's a standard for this, i just made them up) Formatting, setting fonts, colors and padding; and layout, i think old newspaper guys would call it paste up, where the big blocks go on the page.

CSS is great at formatting. It sucks at layout.

This was their approach to layout, <http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/Stylesheets/model.html>

Mosaic had support for tables five months before that, <http://www.eskimo.com/~bloo/indexdot/history/mosaic.htm>

They must have known, and i don't think they had a credible solution to layout problems. they weren't willing to make a full layout language, so tables won.

<comment><USER6> CSS1 was mostly about typography, but CSS2 supports layout equivalent to (or rather a superset of) what is possible with HTML tables.

<comment><USER3> Here's a simple task you can't do in CSS2: Create a multi-line form where the labels are right-aligned to the fields, the fields all line up, and everything expands to fill the contents.

<comment><USER6>

        Label:
           <input type=text>
        Longer label:
           <input type=checkbox>

<comment><USER3> My bad, didn't check my facts, table-cell is in CSS2! Of course, in my defense, it doesn't matter which standard it's defined in if it isn't supported by IE. It isn't even supported in IE7 and we've just recently dropped support for IE6.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> He seems to argue that alternative renderings - eg. for blind users - could be generated on the server rather than the client. This glosses over the important point that nobody is actually going to do that.

The beauty of correct use of html and css is that the burden of choosing an appropriate rendering is pushed to the client, which in turn means that the developer does not have to know in advance what kind of devices or assistive technologies will be used to render the content.

<comment><USER7> If I may monkeypatch the original argument, I'd point out that there isn't any particular reason that you can't output perfectly accessible HTML with this approach. In some ways its likely to be easier than some other approaches, since when you think this way, you're starting out with more actual, factual semantics in your data representation.

Moreover, if you're going to argue the "nobody's actually going to do it" argument, I'd say that "nobody's actually using CSS to generate one HTML page that works in a screen reader, cell phone, rich browser, and REST API" either. For the same value of "nobody", which is to say, not _literally_ nobody, you can find a handful of people, but the idea that there's some mass of developers "correctly" using CSS is pretty silly too.

<comment><USER6> Obviously if you generate semantic HTML there is no problem. But the article argues (in the end) that accessibility instead can be achieved by generating different "object-html" renderings on the server based on e.g a header that says "i am blind". That is totally unrealistic!

Semantic HTML on the other hand is accessible by default, you have to specifically go out of your way to make it inaccessible or platform-specific.

<comment><USER8> But you also have to go _way_ out of your way to make it look good. And with pure semantic HTML there are layouts that are flat out impossible. The only way to do certain things with CSS is by cluttering one's clean HTML with random divs everywhere (killing the markup/style separation in the process)...

Where the author suggested outputting audio when confronted with a "blind" header, I thought more along the lines of returning pure semantic markup. And presumably the abstract code that compiles down to html is purely semantic so it would be trivial.

<comment><USER9> I think HTML is intermediate code, not object code, not source code.

Just like you could code assembly by hand (and plenty of people still do) you can code HTML by hand. But in reality most html is generated by machine and then 'rendered' into a visual representation, the final binary end-product.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> His entire intro is dumb. If you simply define object code as stuff a compiler emits and source code as stuff a compiler processes, than obviously every piece of data is both source and object code. That's the _essence_ of the von Neumann architecture (and, incidentally, that's also why stack buffer overflows are possible). Repeat after me: _data is code_.

</comment><comment><USER11> Funny, I thought HTML was a markup language. The article says HTML is (or can be) both source code and object code. I say it's neither. HTML isn't the source code for some application or piece of software, and it's not the application or software itself. It doesn't tell a cpu what to do, it tells a browser what to show.

<comment><USER12> Yes, of course. But it was clearly meant as an analogy.

The elements of good coding style that apply when writing a program in C don't necessarily apply to a compiler when it compiles a higher level language down to C.

Similarly, the best practices for writing HTML by hand don't necessarily apply to a program that generates HTML from a higher level abstraction.

<comment><USER11> By then end of the article, I was convinced the "source code vs. object code" wasn't an analogy, but a sincere claim.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> worth saying that my argument has nothing to do with css vs tables, but I dont agree with this at all, it may be object code to you, but it is always source code to the client, the browser that has to render it, the screenscraper that wants to pull data from it, the client side scripts that want to modify it.

another disagreement I have with it is that even though it may be generated by whatever fancy backend you want, it is still source code to you, there are very few(no?) powerful html generation libraries that let you generate html as an intermediary format, before writing the "html compiler" you need to understand the html you are compiling.

asm is usually referred to as object code because there are very few people comprehend assembly language at the moment, there was a time when asm (or the binary code itself) could be referred to as source code, but those are long past for most people, web toolkits havent matured that far, you can write perfectly great assembly code without knowing any of it though c, you cannot write a program that generates nice web pages without knowing html and css (right now)

<comment><USER3> _but it is always source code to the client_

Source code is what people read/write, object code is what software & hardware reads/writes. HTML is always object code to the client.

HTML and CSS are still source code to most people -- most web sites are designed by designers who hand you off perfect static renderings before you tear them apart and plug them into whatever template engine you're using. But look at something like <http://www.extjs.com> \-- the HTML is complete object code generated entirely using Javascript.

<comment><USER13> 2 of those 3 'clients' were people (screen scrapers and client scripts). In order for either of these to exist the data needs to be in a code that can be read by people.

<comment><USER3> So, your point is that programs can't process data if it isn't human readable?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I think there are blind spots in this argument. The web will never be a stable environment. The technologies that have afforded its existence are notably fluid, and often leaky. These are characteristics that do not fit standard computer science.

To engineers who are accustomed to rigid runtimes, compilers, and so forth, this opinion that HTML is object code will resonate. However, it makes the assumption that by abstracting away the underlying HTML, you stand a better chance of delivering your program to the intended audience. I don't believe this is the case.

If you embrace the fact that HTML/JS/CSS will at best represent an approximation of the interface you intend to create, and leverage this accordingly, you will write code that will more easily adapt to best fit the environment in which it is run.

The power of web technologies is their resiliency. Programs written in compiled or runtime-based languages either run or they fail. Web code is much more dynamic. We should appreciate this characteristic, even when faced the frustrations of immature, misimplemented, and unsupported standards.

<comment><USER15> What are the blind spots to his argument? I read your comment but didn't see anything particularly in contrast with the post.

Edit: Oh actually I presume you're implying the ability to easily swap stylesheets, and that would be a valid point.

<comment><AUTHOR> Huh? Why would that be a valid point? It's no harder to swap out different kinds of render methods than it is to swap style sheets.

BTW:

> Programs written in compiled or runtime-based languages either run or they > fail.

This is simply not true. No matter what you're writing code in, you can write it in a way that exhibits graceful degradation. It's just that some languages make it easier than others.

<comment><USER13> 'Huh? Why would that be a valid point? It's no harder to swap out different kinds of render methods than it is to swap style sheets.'

its much much harder to switch rendering engines than to switch css files

try changing this websites rendering engine, first you need to hack the server, then you need to understand the source code(and learn the language if you dont know it already), then learn how the renders are perfomed, how the data is modelled.

then try switching its stylesheet, that can be a click away if you want it.

<comment><AUTHOR> What you say is true, but only because the software most people use on their servers makes it true. The conclusion is not that we should continue to use the current broken infrastructure, but that we should build different infrastructure. Your argument is kind of like someone in 1904 arguing that air travel will never be commercially viable because there aren't any airports.

I find it a bit distressing that I would have to explain this here on HN of all places.

<comment><USER13> I didnt make an argument I pointed out a blatantly incorrect statement.

but to follow your point is there anything fundamentally flawed in the concept of html/css/javascript that makes portable sites impossible, or are you suggesting we make some pluggable generic server side rendering that can be controlled by the client because css doesnt deal with heights very well yet?

<comment><AUTHOR> > is there anything fundamentally flawed in the concept of html/css/javascript > that makes portable sites impossible

No, of course not.

> or are you suggesting we make some pluggable generic server side rendering > that can be controlled by the client because css doesnt deal with heights > very well yet

Yeah, pretty much. That way you don't have to wait for the standards bodies or the browser developers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> The "tables vs. CSS" argument has a clear answer and I can't believe we are still arguing about it.

CSS people who argue against tables are obeying their instinct that content and presentation should be separate. They are mostly right about this (I say mostly because the more graphical a webpage is, the more the content and the presentation are inextricably linked).

What the CSS people refuse to acknowledge is that CSS dropped the ball on this, and that CSS failed to incorporate tools for describing layouts in table-based ways. The table-based paradigm is a very natural way to describe layouts -- that's why everyone used tables for this prior to CSS!

Tables are not the enemy! Tables are natural! Tables are expressive! Give me any web page and I'll draw you the lines that show its "table-ness".

If CSS supported tables properly, the web standards people wouldn't have to walk around being enforcers about this. If you could easily convert HTML-based tables to CSS-based tables, everybody could be happy and live in harmony.

The CSS advocates should redirect their ire to the shortcomings of CSS, rather than the people who are working around those shortcomings!

<comment><USER17> "The table-based paradigm is a very natural way to describe layouts -- that's why everyone used tables for this prior to CSS!"

Wrong and wrong.

Tables for layout didn't really take off until the late 90's, and mostly were popularized by the work of one person (Dave Siegel, who wrote a book where he referred to table-based techniques as part of "third-generation" web design, implying just how much had come before).

And even when they did take off, tables were still burdened with the sorts of quirks and browser incompatibilities people complain about with CSS (remember font-size inheritance? Remember the two different baseline alignment models?); too many people seem to have forgotten all the tricks they had to learn to make those layouts work properly, and how complex the resulting HTML had to be.

<comment><USER16> > Tables for layout didn't really take off until the late 90's

Which was coincidentally when websites started having sidebars. Are you arguing in favor of pre-1995 web design? Are you arguing that there is a _more_ natural way than tables to express site layouts with sidebars?

When I say "prior to CSS" I mean "prior to wide CSS adoption and browser support". Yes, CSS1 was released in 1996, but it didn't really catch on among web authors for a few years (and wasn't really practical to use anyway due to limited browser support). In that intervening time, websites started sprouting sidebars, and basically all the sites that used sidebars did so with HTML tables.

> And even when they did take off, tables were still burdened with the sorts > of quirks and browser incompatibilities people complain about with CSS

Quirks or no, HTML-based tables are more fit for describing layouts than CSS ever will be until web authors can use "display: table" or something like that. With HTML-based tables, you're working around _browser quirks_ (which really aren't as bad as you make them out to be). With CSS, you're working with a language that is too weak (even if implemented perfectly) to express what you're trying to say. With CSS, a three-column layout (something that many, many sites want) is considered a "holy grail" (<http://www.alistapart.com/articles/holygrail/>).

CSS (pre-"display:table") doesn't have the right abstractions for achieving designers' demonstrated needs. Why do you live in denial of this fact?

<comment><USER18> > _until web authors can use "display: table"_

IE8 supports it, so any day now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> A huge part of the problem is that HTML is a really bad object code for UIs.

<comment><USER20> HTML should not be used for UI, it's for inserting content and from elements into a presentation. CSS, with the help of graphics and javascript for interactivity should do the UI.

Doing something like:

      with-html
        :ul :id "site-menu"
        dolist (menu-item (list "home" "news" "blog" "aboutus"))
          :li (:a :href concat(*server-root* menu-item) menu-item)

Should generate this:

home

news

blog

aboutus

Then in a CSS page referenced by that presentation, you do whatever you want to #site-menu; you make it a vertical menu, horizontal, tabbed, or even generate big fat fish-eye icons that look like the Mac's. HTML knows _nothing_ of that.

Used in this sense, HTML is a very good object code.

<comment><USER21> In what universe are content, forms and menus not part of the UI?

<comment><USER20> In a world where you can layer truly higher-level UI elements on top of them? Just because some elements map 1:1 doesn't mean all do. You can generate a button from <button /> or <input type="submit" /> but that goesn't mean you can't generate image "buttons". The final generation of a "button" should be left to your rendering module.

This is very similar to addition being a far higher level process than the ADD opcode present in every instruction set. Sure, sometimes addition translates to a single ADD, but not always.

<comment><USER21> What you're describing is what most would call "skinning" or "theming", whereas "user interface" is generally considered to penetrate much deeper into the functionality of the app. Decoupling UI requires an incredibly abstract description of functionality. I've never seen a practical and generalizable example of such a thing.

Skinning, as you point out, often demands modification to the DOM, a task to which HTML and CSS alone are unsuited. It can be done with JavaScript, but it's much more practical and reliable to use a server-side abstraction a la ASP.NET or Seaside. This is more or less the point made by the original article.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> The problem is that your "object code" is someone else's "source code". When you follow standards, it's easy for people to use what you've published; when you don't, it's painful.

A simplistic example: say you put out a typical web page with a navigation area and content area. Maybe for some reason, your website is much easier for me to use if I put the navigation above or below the content or maybe you put it on the left, and it works better for me on the right. If you used standard practices (CSS) to position your elements on the page, it's really easy for me to go in and mold that to exactly what I want. Why? Because it's the standard, so there are plenty of tools out there for this. All I do is tell the browser to overlay my css rule on your page and I'm done. On the other hand, if your layout is done with tables, well then it becomes much more difficult because you didn't follow the rules that the majority of us have agreed to.

<comment><USER23> can you show an example? most sites with pure CSS layouts must have the HTML elements ordered specifically, otherwise it breaks, due to the limitations of CSS.

the best way to customize sites in a client is with something like greasemonkey, where you can use javascript to manipulate the page. you can do it with just css too of course (like stylish) but usually that's limited to just changing the sizes, colors and visibility of things.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I think this makes good points about how we should be working with html these days, except those few of us who do static tables by hand.

One thing I am concerned about in the concept of doing all the work on the server is that CSS has the ability to let the client override some of the presentation issues, such as is the case for accessibility. I wonder if that can be done as effectively on the server.

<comment><USER25> GWT fully embraces the notion that the languages implemented by the browser can be treated as target languages for cross-compilation. The beauty of its design is that the server need not play any role beyond delivering the compiled output...or rpc/json requests for data if you need some. I'm shocked that GWT went unmentioned in his essay and the comments.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> This a a major leap. Once you understand that HTML is object code, a whole new world of architectural possibilities opens up to you.

Not exactly a new idea either. pg talked about this years ago...

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50159>

<comment><USER15> Ron Garret reads or has read HN, so its very possible he knew about that comment.

<comment><AUTHOR> I didn't know about that particular comment, but I did know that this is not an idea that's original with me. It's completely obvious to anyone who has learned Lisp. The only reason I wrote it is that it's apparently not completely obvious to CSS advocates. I seemed to have garnered their attention for reasons passing my understanding, so I thought I'd try to take advantage of that to spread some enlightenment. I have found that sometimes merely stating the obvious somewhere that people can see it and link to it can be useful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> HTML is not object-oriented. It maps to objects as does a relational database.

<comment><USER28> They don't mean object as in object-oriented, but rather as in compiled (but not linked) .o files.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I need to make a blog, where I can pontificate on things I don't understand and get lots of pageviews.</comment>


Can planting billions of trees save the planet? - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/19/planting-billions-trees-save-planet <comment><USER2> Unfortunately the billions of trees provide only a one off benefit. Once they die and rot away the carbon is released back again. So you either need to prevent that carbon ever getting back into the atmosphere or ensure those forests are sustained forever. A useful approach to getting some carbon out of the atmosphere but we still need to stop releasing carbon.

</comment><comment><USER3> At the title, I don't think the planet need to be saved. We/They are saving ourself/theirself.</comment>


Rss reader for software developers - <AUTHOR> http://rssheap.com

<comment><USER2> A few comments:

* I was hoping to be able to use it for a while without signing up first. I nearly walked away.

* It fails to find some feeds, such as for [http://dev.opera.com/](http://dev.opera.com/) and [http://www.iheni.com/](http://www.iheni.com/)

* rssheap.com and www.rssheap.com are separate domains so logging in to one doesn't mean you're logged in to the other. I think you should have a 301 redirect on one of them.

* You could add "RSS Heap" in the title tag - then it would show up when bookmarked.

Nice site though. Straight to my SpeedDial.

</comment><comment><USER3> (for developers)? why not for all people?

<comment><AUTHOR> because you tag articles so I decided to go with the developers first. in the future I will build a general version of rssheap.</comment></comment>


The Present Value of the Distant Future in the Early-Modern Past (2013) [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://web-docs.stern.nyu.edu/old_web/economics/docs/Financial%20History/Spring%202013/Deringer_Present%20Value%202013.pdf <comment><USER2> It's not clear to what extent one should respect distribution instructions on such a document, but note that the first line post-title is:

> VERY PRELIMINARY DRAFT – PLEASE DO NOTE CITE OR CIRCULATE WITHOUT PERMISSION > (APRIL 2013)

(I'm still going to have a look, though, because, despite more or less understanding the individual chunks of the title, I cannot manage to assemble them into a whole that makes sense to me.)

</comment><comment><USER3> Another way to discount future consequences is to apply different weights to them using a sound multicriteria value measurement method. This procedure also allows you to value differently distinct improvements in the future consequences based on the time they occur</comment>


Danish rocket and submarine builder charged with murder after submarine sinks - <AUTHOR> http://news.sky.com/story/woman-missing-after-inventors-home-made-submarine-sinks-near-copenhagen-10983700 <comment><USER2> What an odd situation, I mean of he is lying it will be quickly found out when they toe the submarine to shore and open it up. Further it would be in his interests to tell them if she is on board so that appropriate rescue attempt could be made. If he is not lying it is very odd that the journalist has not made herself known to the authorities. I guess it is possible she doesn't know she is being sought by authorities or perhaps everyone involved is just looking to raise their profiles (am I becoming to cynical??).</comment>


Bitcoin's price rise leads some to think luxury - <AUTHOR> https://ihb.io/2015-07-06/news/bitcoin-portal-exclusively-for-luxury-goods-19848

<comment><USER2> I think Bitcoin as an idea is awesome but in these situations where there is no credibility or way to trace the origin of the currency, it makes for an interesting argument on how people can misuse it.

Bitcoin is definitely a double edged sword.</comment>


Ask HN: Advice for a final year Comp Sci student (Getting into Google,FB,MS) - <AUTHOR>

I am in the final year of my Computer Science course in a reputable college. I have above average intelligence and am willing to work hard. The thing is, I haven't spent the last 3 years of college wisely. I do love computer science and programming, but simply slacked off these last 3 years. A couple of my direct seniors in college got hired by facebook and about 6 of them by Microsoft during campus interviews. I feel guilty for wasting all this time and for not utilising my potential. Many of my friends have been coding on TopCoder and similar websites while I have done nothing... Apart from this, I have quite a load in the upcoming year with my final year project for which my professor results in terms of publication in some top-journal.
Anyway,
What advise do you have for me? I have about 3-4 months from MS interview and about 8 months from Facebook. Google doesn't come to my campus, but I hope to make it through the online application. Is this sufficient time? What should my study plan be like? I know it's subjective, but how good do I need to be?
P.S - I have ordered the CLRS (Introduction to algorithms) & Algorithm Design Manual from Amazon yesterday. <comment><USER2> Why work for the current market leaders? Work for the next one! How do you know which one that will be? You don't. Find work, start your career, see what happens and go with the flow (and bend the flow a little to where you want to end up). Don't stress working for one of the big boys, you'll have tons of competition. Including university graduates that are a lot smarter than you are. Find yourself a nice smaller company or a job as a consultant. Get experience and look for better and more interesting opportunities.

That's what I did after I graduated as a bachelor in computer science. First I worked for a small local company, pay sucked but it was 10 minutes from where I lived. Now I work for a large consulting firm, good pay, sometimes long hours and sometimes an afternoon off, but I have to travel about 3 to 4 hours a day to get to my work.

Most importantly, look for projects that interest you and make sure your employer is dedicated to educating you further because you don't know shit when you leave college / university. Take it from a guy with about 3 years of working experience under his belt.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for the reply. I will definitely apply to many other smaller companies as well, especially startup as I hear that you can learn a lot in them. My thinking behind preparing for these big companies was that even If I don't make it, at least I will be able to get into one of the smaller companies. If I am not wrong, most companies do test how good your algorithm/data structure skills are front up.</comment></comment>


Nintendo reports first-ever annual loss, projects profitable new year - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/4/26/2975416/nintendo-earnings-loss <comment><USER2> Back when the Wii was announced, I knew it was going to be a blockbuster hit. I got my parents to invest a considerable amount of money in Nintendo before- hand and they ended up profiting quite handsomely. They would have done better, but their broker convinced them to invest half of what I was suggesting.

Anyway, the important thing I told them was to not hold on to that stock for more than 2 years because the Wii would fail spectacularly when HDTV's had better adoption rates. I was a bit off on that prediction (nintendo stock took a bit longer to tank), but it seemed so obvious that the Wii would not be able to compete long-term.

I did not predict Apple destroying their handheld marketshare, but neither did the rest of the market. What amazes me about Nintendo is that they felt the Wii could be profitable for so long. I've always looked at the Wii as a defensive maneuver, it was just a device to give the company a shot at following it up with something really great. Since that has yet to happen, I don't think they are even capable of competing in the new market anymore. I have zero confidence that they can compete with Apple or Sony/MS.

The only thing Nintendo has going for them is their IP. I would not be surprised if we start seeing Mario and Link on some iOS title in a couple years. The WiiU will be as successful as the 3DS and everything to follow will be in steady decline. The world is going to move to iOS/Android/windows phone for mobile gaming and pay <$10 for games. Sony and MS are going to own on the game consoles. I just don't see a place for nintendo anymore.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'm not optimistic. Like Sony, Nintendo's insularity has caught up to them in a way that can't be easily remedied. The packaged game looks pretty archaic in a world where just about every game is assumed to be seamlessly multiplayer, loaded with social features, easily updatable, easy to share with friends. And yeah, free or $5 if a gamer has some money burning a hole in their pocket. App Store reviews where gamers complain that something wasn't worth $8 should chill Nintendo execs. Even the "living room" multiplayer gaming experience they seem to be banking on might feel out of place in 2012. Guitar Hero-type games and MS/Sony's awesome Wii competitors seem to have faded. I wonder if social networks and constant mobile connectivity are fulfilling the hole that the group videogame experience once filled. The nail in the coffin is that their whole approach to their IP has been an extreme vulnerability for years: they've flogged all of it to death. I probably saw more press around Angry Birds: Space than any Nintendo game in recent memory and I wouldn't hesitate to say that a new Blizzard game generates vastly more excitement in gaming circles.

</comment><comment><USER4> I know it sounds crazy, but I think we've actually reached a point where the console is dying. The Wii is cool and all, but the prospect of split-screen Minecraft is not warming.

<comment><USER5> Well, every time I see a statement about some tech hobby device dying I just assume nothing will change. I'm a PC gamer and I've been told every three-to- five years for twenty years that my hobby will "die this year". I think Valve with their money-printing software called Steam would disagree.

The console may change, is already changing, to be just a dedicated entertainment box hooked up to your TV.

Split screen Minecraft on the Wii? What?

<comment><USER6> PCs aren't hobby devices. If they die at all, it will be due to tablets becoming popular.

<comment><USER5> I wasn't saying a PC is a hobby device, me playing games on it is the hobby. I suppose one day I'll be playing my PC games on a tablet but it has a long ways to go to convince me that's a superior experience.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Having seen the Wii U at E3 last year--it being a "clear failure" is increasingly likely.

I remember when the Wii was shown at E3 2005--lines were HUGE. You had to wait for hours to get a glimpse of it. Whereas, nobody paid much attention to the Wii U.

Combined with Apple (and Facebook) completely disrupting the games business--I don't think it bodes well for Nintendo (or Sony, or Microsoft) in 2013.

</comment><comment><USER8> It seems to me that Nintendo was somewhat blindsided by the rapid consumer adoption of HD televisions. They've really dropped precipitously in price over the last few years, and as a consequence the Wii has aged very rapidly, perhaps more rapidly than expected. I for one would probably be in the market for a Nintendo system but the chance of my buying a non-HD console in 2012 is approximately zero.

I'm sure they are rushing to get the new system ready and when they do it'll be back onto the gravy train for Nintendo.

<comment><USER9> I think that's only one factor. The major shift in gaming that's hit them has been consumers transitioning from purchasing £20-£40 shrink wrapped games to £0.69-£1.99 downloads with further revenue from in-app purchases.

I've not "yet" seen the signs that they are adjusting to this model on their next console. The one area they may be able to focus on that's not taken care of at the moment is the party/family type games that made the Wii so successful.

Nintendo is a very old company that has altered it's business many times, so there's not reason to believe they won't change themselves again.

<comment><USER10> I don't have high hopes for Nintendo; they have publicly stated they don't believe that $1-$3 downloads are where they should go and clearly they'd prefer to continue to sell that same content for $20-$50 in store. Nintendo will have to fail significantly before they change their business model.

<comment><USER11> It isn't like Microsoft or Sony is embracing the $1-$3 price point for their AAA titles, either.

<comment><USER5> Exactly, I don't under this "Nintendo will fail because they aren't offering games in the $1 to $5 range for the Wii like I see on my iPhone" attitude. We're not seeing any of the console makers considering such a thing. You can make a point like this for the DS market maybe but isn't it a success?

Plus I've seen talk of increasing mobile game prices to offset the increasing production costs.

When we see a game of the production and complexity level of Modern Warfare 3, Battlefield 3, or Skyrim with a retail price of $3.99, only then will Nintendo fear for their console sales.

<comment><USER9> People didn't buy the Wii for those titles. The consumers wanting to play the "high gloss" AAA titles, played them on either the 360, PS3 or a high-spec PC. The Wii only got terrible ports of the MW series which I know of nobody seriously playing. The Wii sales figures for them are ridiculously low compared to the other platforms. As far as I can tell < 1 million sales.

Admittedly the Wii did have AAA games in it's own right (Mario Galaxy 1 & 2, Zelda, Metroid), but these appeal to a very different demographic. The games that really made the Wii successful were Wii Sports (45 million sales), Wii Play (23 million sales) and Wii Fit (18 million sales).

How many Wii's did Nintendo sell at Christmas time every year on the basis of Wii Sports or Wii Fit alone? How many of these are now collecting dust under televisions with no additional software purchased for them? The major thing Nintendo got right last time was not making a loss on their hardware.

<comment><USER5> I wasn't saying a $3.99 MW3 on the Wii, I'm saying that price point for that game regardless of platform. The idea that console makers will quake with fear because people purchase crappy games on their phones for a few bucks will translate to poor sales for consoles and console games is an amusing notion to me.

But I have to say I agree with every statement you made about Nintendo. Everything you said is true. Therefore Nintendo did exactly what they set out to do, to make a profitable and successful console. This makes Nintendo a failure how?

Most of the people I see who complain about the lack of software on the Wii are most likely not Nintendo's market. I have a Wii and my two daughters will happily play it whenever we let them, which would be every day if we didn't restrict it a bit.

The problem they may have with supposed lackluster interest in their console is when they release the WiiU. The question is whether people who are unhappy with their Wii will update to the WiiU. I can't say for sure whether I will or not. But people said the same thing with the GameCube to the introduction of the Wii.

Not directed totally at you, but in my experience most naysayers have no idea what they are talking about.

<comment><USER9> Thanks for the agreement & sorry, maybe I wasn't very clear.. :)

I'm not a Nintendo naysayer at all or suggesting impending doom for them either. I have every Nintendo console going back to the NES with a large catalog of (much loved) games on each.

I wasn't saying MW3 for 3.99 on the Wii (or any other platform). I was more saying the market for MW3 doesn't/didn't exist on the Wii (almost at any price point). High value console games will be around for some time yet, this just isn't Nintendo's marketplace, nor has it been for sometime. Big blockbusters will still sell, just only on non-Nintendo platforms.

Nintendo had a great strategy (red ocean/blue ocean) with the Wii that paid off greatly. It feels a little like their blue ocean isn't really there anymore. I see all the kids now sitting around playing Angry Birds on iDevices and it just feels that with the European/US economy in it's current state, parents are more likely to fill their kids on $2 purchases rather than $20-$30 ones. Especially when there will be a $200-$300 barrier to entry as well.

Nintendo will succeed in their homeland, they always will - I just wonder if they will do so well in other territories in the next couple of years.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Newspaper op-eds change minds - <AUTHOR> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180424133556.htm <comment><USER2> These days I try hard to maintain control of my perspective not by reading broadly, but reading judiciously; I have a white-list on sources rather than a black-list.

For instance, if cable news is on, I fight the temptation to give it my attention. But I sometimes seek out public news like PBS or NPR. It's difficult to identify what the difference is, but I find myself better able to separate opinions from facts.

For online news: I pay and from a newspaper that gets more than 50% of its revenue from subscriptions. It also has a finance bent, and is non-US based, which seems to steer me clear of much of the political echo chamber. Therefore the op-eds are often on topics that don't directly impact me and I find it easier to assess the expressed opinion without emotional investment (e.g. from today: "Customs Union: The battleground set to decide the fate of Brexit").

While on emotional investment, I find the public conversation (which I seem to be less privy to now days) to be alarmist, ideological, and radicalizing. Perhaps that's because Breitbart, HuffPo, and the likes are the masters of new media grabbing impressions and setting the narrative of "what's news" around the world.

All in all, my content consumption patterns have shifted from "eat what's in front of you" to "toy with your diet and see where you end up; rinse; repeat". So I make no claims that this is the right approach, it's just my current approach.

<comment><USER3> Remember it's more than just fact and opinion, it's also about what's covered, whose interviewed, etc.

<comment><USER4> That's always been the most reasonable perspective on "bias" in most major newspapers like the New York Times. I do believe they endeavor to report stories accurately. But the selection of stories and the way they're approached almost inevitably a particular set of beliefs and perspectives.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> When they say the control was not given an op-ed to read, do they mean no reading material was provided, or that they were shown a neutral article?

I suspect that the increased exposure of op-eds comes from newspapers not being printed any more. It used to be that they were isolated onto two pages inside a newspaper. The editorial page and the "opposite-editorial" page. When reading them you knew you they were expressing the opinion of the writer. (I used to think the abbreviates stood for "opinion".)

On the internet the boundary between news and opinion blurs. The front of www.nytimes.com right now has opinion articles prominently featured at the top of the page. They know that readers don't browse a site the way they do a printed newspaper. If they want something to be read it has to be one of the first things they see. But more frequently readers enter an article directly through shared, aggregated, or searched for links. "Click here to read this in the New York Times" doesn't tell you if what you're going to is a news report, op-ed, reprinted press release, or paid advertisement masquerading a news. You may be halfway through the article before noticing the tag that indicates what section it's in, if you notice at all.

The effect of this is that readers are either not able or not willing to differentiate between opinion and unbiased news. Combined with mistrust of journalism after lying scandals, conflicts of interest, and fake news, readers are likely assuming everything they read is an opinion. When facts are inscrutable then the truth of what you know becomes indistinguishable from the truth that you feel.

<comment><USER6> [http://alexandercoppock.com/projectpages_CEK_opeds.html](http://alexandercoppock.com/projectpages_CEK_opeds.html)

"Study 1:...In Wave 1, we collected pre-treatment background variables, exposed subjects to one of five treatment op-eds (or nothing), and collected immediate outcomes."

So it looks like no reading material.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> This is one of those studies that I'm not sure are profound or silly. But of course people changed their minds after listening to a reasoned discussion, who wouldn't? The more interesting case would be "people impervious to written communication".

What I'd like to know is whether people changed their mind or changed their worldview, that is, do written pieces actually get people to think radically- different about major parts of their lives? Or do they just get people who are a bit apathetic more energized and sure of themselves about something they're already predisposed to generally agree with?

<comment> hugh-avherald The magnitude of the change is quite large. And I think it is quite plausible that op-eds only 'preach to the converted' or only persuade those who are already persuaded. This article shows good evidence that people do change their minds -- especially as these articles covered topics on which the treatment group had views on.

<comment><USER8> There's burnout, of course. I'm pretty left leaning, and I'm a subscriber, but I can't stand reading any more NYT op-eds.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> hugh-avherald Kudos for the researchers for publishing their data and the R scripts to reproduce their findings.

A minor complaint I have is that the variable names aren't very clear. What's `dv_flat_agree_w1` etc?

<comment><USER9> I can't find the data/scripts. Can you give the link?

<comment> m-watson Go to: [https://www.nowpublishers.com/article/Details/QJPS-16112](https://www.nowpublishers.com/article/Details/QJPS-16112) and click "Supplementary information" below the abstract.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> In my 20s and perhaps 30s, I read the op-eds pretty regularly. At some point after that, my policy changed: if given the headline and the byline I can sketch out the arguments, I generally skip it.

</comment><comment><USER11> im sure there are mixed opinions on "chapo trap house" as a whole, but i think they have filled a somewhat novel niche of lampooning oped writers who have no business being listened to. i feel like opeds are passive accepted / groaned at, but giving them renewed attention and scrutiny has reminded me how little weight i should give most of the writers opinions. in many cases, they have no more expertise or knowlege than a layperson on the topic, what business do they have being read by millions?

<comment><USER12> Their recent episode on The Atlantic & Kevin Williamson was really enlightening. Establishment media is seen as a "balanced news diet" but it's really an extremely narrow ideological band. It's so telling that the NYT or Atlantic would never hire an actual leftist (or on the other side, a true trump believer rather than a never-trump conservative), but they're bewildered at the angry response from trying to hire someone who said women who get abortions deserve capital punishment. Women's rights are negotiable to them but capitalism and imperialism can never be attacked. Even in a respected liberal rag.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm only a chapter in on "The Influential Mind" by Tali Sharot, but the op-ed as influential makes sense. Mainly because a good op-ed should explore the given issue with some balance (i.e., present and identify with all sides), and draw its own conclusion.

</comment><comment><USER14> I have learned from experience that most people cannot differentiate cause from effort or fact from truth. As such I suspect any published opinion will change many the opinions of many people without any rational consideration.

</comment><comment><USER15> Think of the implications for the old fashioned advertorial[0]...

0 - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertorial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertorial)

</comment><comment><USER16> Considering the content of some of the op-eds I read, this prospect is more worrying than the idea that nobody's thinking is affected by them.</comment>


Stripe using robots to respond inquires - <AUTHOR> I noticed that Stripe been using robots to reply my questions. Very unprofessional. <comment><USER2> Hrm, Stripe doesn't use robots to respond. Can you forward those responses to me at email@example.com and I can take a look?

<comment><AUTHOR> The robot name is Alex who using "Hey there!" type responses. I am 100% sure he is robot not a human.</comment></comment>


What's Really Delaying the Defeat of Aging? - <AUTHOR> http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2012/08/whats-really-delaying-the-defeat-of-aging.php

<comment><USER3> > What's Really Delaying the Defeat of Aging?

That's easy to answer -- our ignorance of cell biology. We only have a superficial understanding of a cell's life cycle and mechanisms.

But this isn't part of the author's reality. A quote from the article: "I broke the back of the first problem in mid-2000, when I realized that regenerative medicine - repairing the accumulating damage of aging - <USER2> probably be far simpler and easier to implement than the alternative followed by most biogerontologists, namely slowing the creation of that damage. By that time, I had also done most of the heavy lifting of item 2 (as I continued to do thereafter), by connecting with leading researchers worldwide, mostly face to face at conferences, and improving their understanding ..."

Wow -- you "broke the back" of a problem that in fact remains unsolved, did "most of the heavy lifting", and spoke to many leading scientists, "improving their understanding" of the basic issues? Based on those quotes, this isn't about aging and gerontology, it's about narcissism. And narcissism, like aging, is at present incurable.

The author goes on to complain about a lack of funding, but the problem isn't funding, the problem is a lack of plausible ideas. Obviously if some likely attack on this problem were proposed and backed up by scientific evidence, there would be unlimited funding. The sparse funding speaks for itself. And the author's tendency to "improve the understanding" of the scientists working in this field isn't a solution, it's an unsolved problem.</comment>


A formalization in Coq of the Haskell pipes library - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/jwiegley/coq-pipes <comment><USER2> I liked the little summary at the end:

> _So in all it took 1.5 years to learn Coq well enough and to find the right > abstraction, and 2 weeks to do the actual work._

That matches what other people have told me about Coq: the learning curve can be brutal, but you can be _surprisingly productive_ once you get over it. (To be fair, this sort of problem also feels like a really good fit for Coq—proving theorems in more developed sub-field of mathematics is much harder.)

A pretty cool project all around!

<comment><USER3> I've had only a little exposure to Coq, but for the life of me I could not understand how to use it. I mean on the practical level, not the conceptual level.

I know people talk about it as a theorem-prover, but how do I actually _use_ that? This might be due to my general lack of exposure to theorem provers in general, but I can't wrap my head around how I can use this to make my programs better in a practical environment (despite my total buy-in to the concept)

<comment><USER4> Check out [http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/](http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/)

<comment><USER5> Also (and IMO this one is a little more well-structured) the Software Foundations course[0]. Especially when supplemented by Pierce's excellent lectures, available on youtube.

[0]: [http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/index.html](http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/sf/current/index.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is why I love the Haskell community! Awesome work!

</comment><comment><USER5> Just glancing over this (super cool, John!), but what's going on here:

        Notation "f <~ g" := (f ~> g) (at level 70).

Seems likely to cause confusion... what's the reasoning/explanation behind this? I might imagine a law such as _Notation "f <~ g" := (g ~> f)_, but...?

It's been too long since I wrote some Coq! Gotta get back into it :)</comment>


Building an $80k/month business with a software testing community - <AUTHOR> https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/ministry-of-testing <comment><USER3> @rosiesherry - Congratulations for building up a good business along with what I assume a very hectic personal life (4 kids!). :-)

You've discontinued testing services, but I think there is a big market out there. We've been looking for a platform where we can list our website & its high level use cases, and then 1 or more testers can test it out thoroughly. We've tried sites like MyCrowd in the past, but didn't get a great result from them. Most testers just submitted cosmetic bugs and weren't as detail oriented as we'd like.

I'm sure there would be other startups who have similar needs for getting their sites/apps tested and can easily pay for such a service.

Are you (or anyone else here on HN) aware of any good testing services out there or a place where we can find good freelance testers?

<comment><AUTHOR> @luckystrike - yeah, I felt sad to stop the testing services. I think we will go back to it once we have a bit more headspace (and/or money).

Testing is funny because there's not really the same kind of freelancers out there for testing as you get in the designer/programming/tech world. Most testers are either full time employed or work on full time contracts. There are freelancers, but there should be more.

Asfaik - there isn't a place to find good testing freelancers. We have a job board on our website, or sometimes I try to recommend people.

<comment><USER3> May be you can think about building a platform where clients can submit their gigs and testers can work on those short projects. You already have a community, and some of them might like to earn additional income but can't find such opportunities easily.

From a client's perspective, we are looking 'vetted' testers who are detail oriented and can be relied upon for a thorough job.

My email address is in the HN profile. Feel free to contact me in case you'd like to discuss this further.

Wish you a lot more success in the future!

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, thanks. Have thought about many of these things. Need to see if I can find the time/energy/resources to do some of them.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Interesting post, but I would suggest coming up with an original logo, rather than using another company's world famous logo and slapping a ninja icon on it.

Ministry of Sound logo:

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Ministry- of-s...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Ministry-of-sound- logo.png)

The logo this company (Ministry of Testing) is using:

[https://www.indiehackers.com/images/business- icons/ministry-...](https://www.indiehackers.com/images/business- icons/ministry-of-testing-920a568a864c438b6509a722e80062.png)

<comment><USER5> You're right, it's definitely a bit of a rip-off, but

1) The Ministry of Sound logo is imitation of an official government ministry logo anyway, eg [https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/the-office-of- th...](https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/the-office-of-the-leader- of-the-house-of-commons) or [https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations](https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations)

2) The Ministry of Sound changed their logo: [http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/new_logo...](http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/new_logo_for_ministry_of_sound_by_spin.php)

<comment><USER4> 1\. They used the same state emblems to create a completely different design.

2\. Doesn't mean other people can use their "old" logo (which they're currently still using).

FWIW, I'm no fan of MOS (one of the reasons I posted is because they're notoriously litigious, even suing Spotify over the order of user playlists), but I'm also no fan of design work being so blatantly ripped off, particularly by companies that can easily afford to hand work to a real designer.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Congrats, Rosie, always nice to hear about these 6 year "overnight success" stories.

</comment><comment><USER7> $80K/month in revenue, not profit. Didn't see any mention of costs, so it's hard to tell if this is a success or not. Can't criticize though, nice story.

<comment><USER8> Also, the maximum yearly revenue they've seen is £600k, which is definitely not £80k/month. It's misleading to report the revenue of a peak month - <USER2> today I send an invoice for a consulting gig that lasted two months and amounts to $15k, do I make $15k a day or $7.5k a month?

That said, they seem to have good growth and the project is nice.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, because we've been growing alot, I took the $80k as an average from the past 6 months. I didn't feel like the article was the right place to go into further detail of finances. We are profitable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Wasn't indehackers the domain that posted about the domain squatters who made '$xxx in a month' just the other day? Is this a real site that people go to or a thinly veiled marketing service?

<comment><USER10> Creator of Indie Hackers here. And yes, it's a real site people go to!

For readers (particularly developers interested in starting their own business), it's a source of inspiration, motivation, and community. There aren't many (any?) other places you can go online and read this many founder stories, complete with revenue stats, for smaller non-unicorn businesses.

For the people who agree to be interviewed, it's definitely free marketing for their businesses. It's also a chance to share their story, their successes, and their advice with the world. When you've been toiling away for years (likely in obscurity), sharing feels _great_.

So it's a win-win, really.

<comment><USER11> For what it's worth I love reading about businesses with realistic revenue numbers. You can read about $10M/month businesses in any financial publication. It's hard to find a lot of material about businesses comparable to mine (I own a non-tech business in the $25k/mo range and am a programmer so am constantly looking for ways to push that business into the tech space).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> @rosiesherry Thanks for this, and congrats on the business. I wish you all the best going forward in your industry (which I had never heard much of before now).

It's incredible looking at the revenue breakdown just how much 'training courses and events' were bringing in compared to the actual 'testing services'.

I'm launching 2 free and open-source toolkits for Web designers/developers next month and your revenue breakdown has convinced me that my initial plan of monetizing on training is probably the way to go.

Do you have any specific tips on how you built up that initial community (besides setting up the forum)? What were some of the specific tactics you used to draw those initial users in?

<comment><AUTHOR> I'd be happy to chat in detail 'offline'. Mostly I just try to be human and genuinely helpful.

I try to find ways that help testers and I keep doing it consistently (even if it gets really tedious).

One example is me maintaining a feed for testing related blogs. Testers can either submit or if I find a new one I add it to our feed. The feed gets shared publicly, but then I also socially share some of the blog posts. People often explain their spike in traffic as the 'sherry' effect :)

I ask for nothing in return, I do it as a way to try to grow and bring the community together.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Awesome, inspiring story. Congrats.

</comment><comment><USER14> Are there any remote testing job sites? There are so many for developers, but I scarcely see any remote posts that would look for dedicated application testers. I suppose this is due to startups cutting costs and leaving developers to test the product. In my experience, such structures are not good either for the developers, nor the company's products.

<comment><USER15> One example: [https://www.usertesting.com/be-a-user- tester](https://www.usertesting.com/be-a-user-tester)

but you can look for alternatives of course.

<comment><USER14> Thank you, but I did not mean UAT. More along the lines of regression, smoke, load, etc. Ya know, things where ISTQB knowledge, familiarity with linux, bash and python is a requirement or at least desired.

<comment><USER15> Ah, that kind. No idea, you should definitely message the owner ( @rosiesherry ) if you haven't already.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Didn't SV and Redmond outsource all these jobs to Indian houses? Microsoft basically killed their STE workforce and just use Indian shops.

</comment><comment><USER17> Nice story, what's the actual cashflow though?

</comment><comment><USER18> What would they all do for marketing ?

</comment><comment><USER19> Nice to see someone use the word 'interwebs'

</comment><comment><USER20> If you are making 80k per month then your developer should get a real salary and benefits.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not sure where it says I don't pay a real salary? My husband leads the tech along with a part time freelance developer.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Nice article, couldn't really bring myself to reading it all. Just wish it was a bit more shorter and concise, was more of a marketing spill.

Update: For the down votes are you serious?

<comment><USER22> > Update: For the down votes are you serious?

Yes. A comment that proudly states that you haven't read the article and then goes on to offer derogatory drive-by criticism is pretty much the anti-thesis of a valuable contribution to the community.

<comment><USER21> None of my comment was derogatory of the above article. My comment pointed out the article was too long and didn't captivate me as a reader. I tend to read lengthy post but tend to ignore article's just like the one posted.

Now I even shoved it into smmry to get the general gist of the article and even smmry after condensing the article down to 14 to 20 sentences didnt even look very appealing (to me the reader).

Congratulations are in order for what she achieved and with a small family it is even more remarkable.

The problem I mostly have about the article after coming back here was I got more knowledge about her as a person and the company than the damn article she wrote. Though I will never know because the whole thing just read like a marketing blog post.

The `serious` is more in line of `you got to be joking me` that some people take things way too seriously.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Feedback on my newest project - <AUTHOR>

URL: http://trophysight.com<p>One of my friends is an avid hunter and fisherman. He had the idea for a social network for hunters and fisherman to share pictures. I'd love HN's feedback on the idea and the current implementation! <comment><USER2> I think the idea is pretty cool, but why do you need so much information (first name, last name, email address, birthday)?

If you just required a username and a password, and then made everything else optional, I think you'd get a lot more signups.

I didn't feel like giving you all that information so I didn't bother creating a login... but if you haven't done it already have you considered adding voting to the pictures? This would be a perfect use-case for the new Facebook "Like" buttons. Thinking about it, maybe Facebook connect would be a good idea as well.

[Edit: You may want to do something better for your privacy policy if you are going to require all this information. Big blocks of "lorem ipsum" text aren't very confidence inspiring. You may also want to change the "you're bound by the ToS when you register" text until you actually have some terms of service.]

<comment><AUTHOR> We do need birthday because you have to be at least 13 to register but you're right about the rest, especially the TOS... going to fix that now :)

<comment><USER2> You may want to look in to FB Connect, I think it will solve a lot of those issues for you.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah FB Connect is a great idea! I think many of my potential users are probably already on facebook already.

As far as the TOS go, I'm a little too poor right now to hire a lawyer but the university near me has a great program where law students (supervised by a lawyer) offer free services to entrepreneurs. I'm signed up for that program but it doesn't start until June.

Any suggestions for how to fill that privacy policy and tos in the mean time?

<comment><USER2> I'd remove them both for the time being, you don't need all that formality yet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I was brought up in a family of avid hunters and fishermen (although I find fishing boring and prefer target shooting over hunting), and here are some things you might want to add:

Size.

Weight.

Distance for hunting.

More details on gear used.

The place where the game was caught in addition to the home town of the sportsman.

On question here is do you want to do this free form, with perhaps some suggestions to the user, and then have to police abuses (e.g. anything that passes a profanity filter) and have things look a bit irregular, or do you want to try to limit and regularize the inputs?

If the latter, type of lure or load would get onerous and would get really obnoxious for handmade flies, hand loads, etc.

And then there's people like my father who has about 2 12 gauge hand loads he uses for his Browning Auto-5s, for small (dove and quail) and medium (grouse and pheasant) upland birds. If he were the type to put up pictures like this, I'm sure he'd prefer being able to pick from those few options (no drop down lists though!) rather than entering the details each time (I'm sure he wouldn't bother to do the latter).

And, yeah, the profile slider is very nice.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER4> I really dig your profile slider on the trophy board! Is that a plugin you used or something you hand coded?

<comment><AUTHOR> That was hand coded. It took me forever to get it working in IE6 :)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Clickable link: <http://trophysight.com></comment>


You Can't Start the Revolution from the Country Club - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/p/65fb61abc815 <comment><USER2> App.net is only going to be a "problem" if the alternatives, for some reason, cease to exist, and no-one decides to enter the vacuum (private or public).

But why stop there. Why not ask Twitter (and anyone else) to make everyone everyone else's followers. Is it fair to have to build your own followers? Isn't it unfair that only some people get to be trendsetters and leaders within those communities? What good is an open (or closed) platform if your voice is miniscule/diluted?

Is exclusivity a problem, if you can build your own (exclusive/inclusive) clubs?

Sure, the internet is nominally open, such that people are pretty much free to join G+, FB, Twitter, Blogger, etc. But in practice, most people self select and gravitate to their own places/groups/friends, etc.

If you want to ensure an alternative open platform, then go ahead and build your own, if you can't, then as in any case where one is underrepresented, clamor, get attention and get served. If people in third world countries can build apps and sites to support their needs, there is no reason people in first world economies cannot.

</comment><comment><USER3> I thought Siracusa had a really good take on this in last Friday's Hypercritical (<http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/81>)

One point he made that resonated with me was how it was offensive to say that people wanting to support App.net are doing so to "flee from Twitter" based on the service being populist.

Even discounting the fact that the entire way you experience Twitter is exclusionary (based on the asymmetric follow model), it seems willfully disingenuous to ignore the main reason people are wary of Twitter (mainly, the companies current decisions around controlling the experience, and people's fear of what they will do in the future).

And catchy headline aside, if the "revolution" you're trying to start is one where people pay for the services they use instead of being at the mercy of advertisers, a country club isn't as bad a place to start it from as he makes out.

And I say that as someone who doesn't think App.net has a chance in hell of supplanting Twitter (which to be fair, isn't even their goal).

</comment><comment> jack-r-abbit Wow... App.net has been funded for what... a week? And already people are pulling out both the Gender Card and the Race Card. _sigh_

<comment><USER4> Agreed. Also stating svbtle is a tool that "improves and simplify the experience for writing and creating content online" made me quietly chuckle, knowing it's invite only.</comment></comment>


Is The Patent System Broken? - <AUTHOR> http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/11/patentsgoogleporter

<comment><USER2> Well, yes, quite obviously: it has been visibly broken since the first software patent was granted.</comment>


Ask PG: Please reply here or write an essay on: - <AUTHOR>

1. how you feel after successfully helping/mentoring/funding 80 companies?
2. What is the secret of YC's success and the success of YC funded companies?
3. How did you came up with YC business model?
4. What is the most important thing you think companies/founders get from your program? (i know most of them will say VC connection, demo day, mentoring etc. but is it anything else that we are not seeing?)
and finally
5. what advise would you give to the people who wants to replicate your model (as there are few clones already) not to make money but to help grow the spirit of entrepreneurship, employment and innovation?
Pg, your reply/essay will go long way to help - because I think if there are more YCs then there are more successful startups, more startups will bring more jobs in the market, there will be more innovation and it help directly and in-directly the whole economy (especially to the third world countries who might implement your model to get balls rolling). <comment><USER2> 1\. A lot more experienced. Before YC, the only startups I knew about were the ones started by me and by friends. Now I know which of their qualities were essential to their success, and which were incidental.

2\. This answer will sound useless, but it's the same reason anyone is good at anything. There's no single secret. There are about 20 different things we have to do, from recognizing talent to talking about product ideas to matching people up with VCs, and we try hard to do them all well.

3\. By accident. When we first started YC, we didn't know what to do, so we started with a summer program. Most college students regard summer jobs as disposable anyway, so we figured no one would mind if the experiment was a disaster and all the companies failed. As it turned out, that batch did remarkably well.

4\. This one I already did write about: <http://ycombinator.com/about.html>

5\. That it's not as easy as it looks. A lot of people think investing is like betting on horses: you pick, they race, and if they win you get money. Actually it is a lot more active than that. And the earlier the stage, the more work it is. If you want to invest at this stage, you need to have the same qualities you'd need to be a successful founder.

<comment><USER3> follow-up question to #1: which qualities are successful to the startup's success? I've read essays where you say determination is more important than intelligence; would you add anything else to that?

<comment><USER2> Determination, solid friendship between the founders, flexibility, intelligence, honesty, design sense, experience, in that order.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Ask PG: please make me a sandwich.

Edit: In all seriousness, you can probably find answers to most of these in his existing essays.

<comment><USER5> sudo Ask PG: please make me a sandwich.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Can we "pls" leave the expression "pls" on Reddit and Digg?

<comment><USER7> I started with Slashdot, got disillusioned, then went over to Digg, then Reddit, and now I'm here and have a better appreciation for Slashdot. This experience prompts me to formulate a law:

When you start wishing social news site X won't become like social news site Y, it's probably inevitable at that point.

<comment><USER6> Slashdot went bad differently than Digg and Reddit. Digg and Reddit went bad by appealing to too many people, and making commenting too easy.

Slashdot is bad because people post the same fucking diatribes over and over. I guess this happens on Reddit and Digg too, but to a lesser extent. You could roll Slashdot back to 1999 and it would be the same people with the same views talking about the same thing. We get your point, enough already :)

Oh well, at least there's still Lambda The Ultimate.

<comment><USER8> > Oh well, at least there's still Lambda The Ultimate.

Sssshhhh! The others will hear you.

<comment><USER9> L:tU is scary enough that most of the unwashed masses take a look at it and then go away. They've done a really good job at keeping the bar high.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Kinda demanding, especially since you are saying the purpose of the information is to help YC competitors.

<comment><AUTHOR> YC competitors will fail if they don't have honest soul to help others to grow. Also YC model looks easy from outside but if you try to know the nity- gritty of their business model then you will realize that its a hard work and the passion behind it has to be genuine otherwise there would have been hundreds of clones all over world. I see YC as a social entrepreneurship than just a money making machine and hence if Pg can share something that can help other entrepreneurs and countries then it would be like an adding jewel to his legacy crown.

<comment><USER9> "Benevolent" != "do all the work for your competitors". Besides, if you're not smart enough to figure out how to improve on the YC model on your own, why should entrepreneurs come to you for advice?

<comment><USER11> Because he's smart enough to ask?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> funny how most commenters strike down the person for asking, yet PG actually replies to 4/5 questions. why not either a) try to answer the questions or b) let PG answer them, because he seemed pretty willing.

</comment><comment><USER13> Part of 2) is that YC has made raising (seed) capital like applying to college, something that most people just coming out of college already know how to do. Previously it involved meeting rich people and smooth talking them out of their money, something that very few people just coming out of college know how to do.

</comment><comment><USER14> Reading the essays will answer the meaningful questions here.

</comment><comment><USER15> probably too self serving for PG, along with all the other reasons</comment>


Masters in CS? - <AUTHOR>

Is getting a Masters in CS worth it?  What if you have a BS in CS?  What if you have a BS in Math or Engineering? <comment><USER2> Define "worth it"? Do you mean will it make you more money in the long run? Probably not. It does have some advantages, depending on the career path you choose. The opportunity cost of staying in school for another 2 years while your friends are in the work force, gaining experience and making contacts, should not be taken lightly.

Here's my experience:

I have a BS in Software Engineering, and an MS in Computer Science. The MS helped to open doors for me right out of school, but most of the companies that I targeted had staffs where MS and PhD were the norm. Also, I had a very focused specialty during my MS (mobile development), and this helped me land a great first gig out of school. If you do the MS route, I recommend finding something that you can truly focus on during that time.

</comment><comment><USER3> The answer to this question almost completely hinges on what _you want_ for yourself. What are your career goals? What is your current education? Do you feel any educational deficiency or are you comfortable with your status? Do you have the financial means currently?

</comment><comment><USER4> From my experience, it won't help you get a job...I've personally seen candidates with masters' degrees in CS get turned down in favor of self-taught programmers at a large profitable internet company.</comment>


Twitter Cuts Off Employee Access to Its Metrics - <AUTHOR> http://recode.net/2015/02/05/twitter-cuts-off-employee-access-to-its-metrics/

<comment><USER2> I'm amazed that it took this long, given that the # is material to how the stock trades. (Look at their volatility on earnings day) Why give thousands of people access to information whose inadvertent release could cause public disclosure problems? (As a public company, material information needs to be released to all investors at the same time) Even an accidental mistake could cause big problems, let alone insider trading.

<comment><USER3> Bullshit. The market would work more efficiently if this info was made public in real time. That companies keep important data secret until earnings' big PR effort is a huge market distortion as evidenced by the big corrections that occur during the big reveal. The only benefit that this distortion provides to the company is to allow insiders more opportunities for cooking the numbers and insider trading.

<comment><USER4> Are you suggesting these should be open to the marketplace? That alternative puts all publicly traded companies at a disadvantage to privately held businesses.

<comment><USER2> You've just highlighted the tradeoff. The question for public money is "How much information to actually release?"

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I don't understand - can't one calculate MAU from firehose data? If so then all companies who bought that data can access this elusive MAU metric.

<comment><USER6> An 'active' user doesn't have to be tweeting, so they won't all show up in the firehose.

MAU figures are pretty dubious anyway - see the other recode story about how 4 million 'active' users vanished because iOS no longer automatically fetches tweets:

[http://recode.net/2015/02/05/how-twitter-lost-4-million- user...](http://recode.net/2015/02/05/how-twitter-lost-4-million-users- because-of-apples-ios-8/)

<comment><USER7> The data can still be correlated. Given a history of known actives and corresponding tweets, the average tweets-per-active can be determined. That may change over time but it's unlikely to do so in a capricious fashion without good cause. Say, onboarding a large class of users for whom Twitter and/or Tweets are of secondary interest. Not that, say, Google might have done that with Google+ or anything.

Just because you cannot _directly_ see the number you're interested in doesn't mean you cannot infer it by other means.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I don't understand how/why a publicly traded company like Twitter should be allowed to hide such an important piece of data from the public and from shareholders?

<comment><USER9> It's less to do with hiding data from the public and more along the lines of controlling the data so that no one in the company gets it before the public (and thus allowing said person inside the company to trade company stock on insider information).

<comment><USER10> Isn't this solved with trading windows, which you only open up right after earnings calls? Or am I missing something?

<comment><USER11> Those don't apply to the general public. The problem is insider gets info -> calls his brother-in-law -> brother-in-law trades on early info. Illegal, but lucrative.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Does Facebook have similar policies? What's the level of transparency there?

<comment><USER13> That sort of information is readily available to Facebook employees as well as widely distributed. But for example engineering levels are secret.

<comment><USER12> I was more interested in knowing the level of transparency on a day-to-day basis on metrics such as usercount, revenue, etc. you know, stuff that could get you in a bind for insider trading.

<comment><USER13> User count - yes; revenue - I honestly don't know. There are quiet periods for restricted stock units for when you might know more than the market. When then quarterly numbers are out the blackout period ends and you can trade your stock. It's been like that in every publicly traded US company I've ever worked at.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I understand the reason they did it, though I think they should have done this way earlier. This seems to send a negative signal that you're not growing as fast and want to keep your cards close.</comment>


Linux kernel will no longer use terms 'blacklist' and 'slave' - <AUTHOR> https://thenextweb.com/dd/2020/07/13/linux-kernel-will-no-longer-use-terms-blacklist-and-slave/ <comment><USER2> Either the title is very misleading or we are going to see some ABI breakage in the kernel.

That "blocklist/passlist" alternative is horrible - blocklist has always been a list of blocks (and that's how it is used in kernel now).</comment>


Scientists accidentally create mutant enzyme that eats plastic bottles - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/16/scientists-accidentally-create-mutant-enzyme-that-eats-plastic-bottles <comment><USER2> I'd feel better about this if they mentioned what the breakdown products are. Statements like "plastic-eating bugs might one day be sprayed on the huge plastic garbage patches in the oceans" reminds me of cases where nonnative species were introduced into an environment to "solve" one problem but created worse problems.

Also, the PNAS and DOI links in the article are bogus, and I couldn't find a reference to this research on the PNAS website using PET/enzyme/plastic as keywords. I did, however, find an article under the researcher's name[0] and a related article on PET degradation from February[1].

[0] [https://phys.org/news/2018-04-plastic-eating- enzyme.html](https://phys.org/news/2018-04-plastic-eating-enzyme.html)

[1] [https://phys.org/news/2018-02-insight-molecular-mechanism- pe...](https://phys.org/news/2018-02-insight-molecular-mechanism-pet- degradation.html)

<comment><USER3> [http://science.sciencemag.org/content/351/6278/1196](http://science.sciencemag.org/content/351/6278/1196) > Poly(ethylene terephthalate) (PET) is used extensively worldwide in plastic products, and its accumulation in the environment has become a global concern. Because the ability to enzymatically degrade PET has been thought to be limited to a few fungal species, biodegradation is not yet a viable remediation or recycling strategy. By screening natural microbial communities exposed to PET in the environment, we isolated a novel bacterium, Ideonella sakaiensis 201-F6, that is able to use PET as its major energy and carbon source. When grown on PET, this strain produces two enzymes capable of hydrolyzing PET and the reaction intermediate, mono(2-hydroxyethyl) terephthalic acid. Both enzymes are required to enzymatically convert PET efficiently into its two environmentally benign monomers, terephthalic acid and ethylene glycol.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This makes me think: "Haven't any of these people seen a horror movie?"</comment>


Lisp Space – A Space for Parentheses - <AUTHOR> http://lisp.space/ <comment><USER2> So I wasn't really expecting this site to get to the front page of HN. It's pretty cool that it did though, I hope some people find it useful. Please contribute and get some good discussion going!

I don't think things are working 100% at the minute which is probably due to the load - it is running on a $3 pm OVH VPS. I'm quite amazed it is still running at all.

It is a Telescope app at the minute which uses Meteor, so there is no chance of it running without Javascript. It was just a quick evening idea that took about 5 minutes to set up. Telescope is pretty amazing how simple it is to set up.

I hear you about being able to run without JS - especially within Emacs. Awesome idea! If the interest continues I will look into rewriting the site (in a Lisp obviously) to serve static content. Could be a fun little project.

Thanks for the interest!

<comment><USER3> Thanks for using Telescope :) Let me know if I can do anything to help!

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> [http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp](http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp)

</comment><comment><USER5> Would be nice to have it working at least to some degree without javascript. Good luck!

<comment><USER6> What's the use-case for that? Are there people reading that using a Lisp Machine or something?

I'd say it should offer some form of API. Then you can use anything to read. Such as Emacs.

<comment><USER7> If it just used plain markup, I could read it in emacs without building a custom client for the API.

<comment><USER6> On closer inspection, you're correct.

I thought it would first render the page, then the javascript would take over. It does not seem to be the case, on first load there's only javascript.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> > Why is Scheme not a Lisp?

Oh god, please no.

<comment><USER9> Why not? It seems interesting to me. I've always called scheme/racket a lisp, and I never knew that anyone felt differently. Does this mean that clojure is also not a lisp?

<comment><USER8> That discussion is about as pedantic as a discussion can be.

The main point against seems to be "they didn't name it Lisp". From there it goes into weird accusations like that people call Scheme a Lisp to defame Common Lisp (WTF?). They also say stuff like "Lisp and Scheme parted ways" which is just ignorant of the fact that "Lisp" in that context means "Common Lisp" and most people saying "Scheme is a Lisp" are basically talking about languages inspired by McCarthy's Lisp. But instead of making this reasonable counterargument, people start arguing that Scheme has a lot of similarities to Lisp (meaning Common Lisp).

And that link is one of the more intelligent debates on the subject. It's a long-running debate and most places I've seen it discussed are even more confused.

I just can't be arsed to give a fuck. Usually when I'm talking about Common Lisp I say "Common Lisp" because I value actual clear communication over saving six characters. And when I say "Lisp" I usually mean "languages inspired by McCarthy's Lisp" (which includes Scheme), but it's pretty rare I have anything useful to say about such a broad group of languages.

<comment><USER10> That's a whole lot of history, neatly packed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I grew a professor style beard just visiting that site.

</comment><comment><USER12> I saw many pages like `Hacker News for x`. Did any of those took off? (Just wondering, no hate)

<comment><USER13> Datatau seems to be alive, and I check it regularly. Not much discussion though. [http://www.datatau.com/](http://www.datatau.com/)

<comment> not-much-io Regarding DataTau I built a small front page analyzer and have some graphs up. It runs every 3 hours and looks at some aspects of both HackerNews and DataTau and compares the two. It's still very much a work in progress. At one point I will let it run for an extended period of time.

Graphs: [https://github.com/not-much-io/hn-dt-frontpage- comparison/tr...](https://github.com/not-much-io/hn-dt-frontpage- comparison/tree/master/data/plots)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Since this site requires JavaScript in order to work at all, is the source code available under a free license? I'm interested in participating, but not if I have to use proprietary software to do it.

<comment><AUTHOR> [https://github.com/TelescopeJS/Telescope](https://github.com/TelescopeJS/Telescope)

<comment><USER14> So, it is just a telescope instance without any modifications? Okay, sounds good. Would be nice if they provided a link to download the exact source code that they are using.

<comment><USER2> It is pure unmodified Telescope. Will add an about page to site shortly.

<comment><USER14> Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> How is this different than planet.lisp.org?

<comment><USER16> planets only contain the post; the highest value of sites like HN and reddit is the comments, because that's where discussion can happen and counterpoints can be brought forward.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Too bad it's on Meteor, it's going to be a pain to keep this running.

Good luck!

<comment><USER2> I would be interested to hear what you think the pain points may be. In truth I just started this up on a whim and didn't look into things too closely.

<comment><USER17> Biggest issue is basically that meteor has an ecosystem of dependencies that need their source code modified to work with Meteor, Meteor also relies entirely on global variables and a number of other uglies.

I have been involved professionally with developing two medium-large applications on Meteor, and it's terrifying.(first time was when it was in alpha, so I forgave it, second time out of alpha, and it's almost worse).

I think that HN is run from this [https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki](https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki) or something similar. (there's a run-news script in there which IIRC instantiates something a whole lot like HN).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Am I the only one who notice the '.space' domain?</comment>


MS is open-sourcing PDB format - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/Microsoft/microsoft-pdb <comment><USER2> This brings back some fond memories. One of the first interesting projects I worked on professionally was a post-mortem debugger that ran under OS/2\. We used Microsoft's compilers and it was a bit of a challenge to reverse engineer enough of the debugging symbols to make something useful. Definitely could have used this back then :)

</comment><comment><USER3> File format cannot be open sourced. Tool for working with the format can, or the format can have published specification. Format itself doesn't have source code.

<comment><USER4> To be clear, what was "open sourced" was a C header file containing struct definitions and parsing functions for that file format.

An implementation could be considered one way of providing a format/protocol specification.

<comment><USER3> > "open sourced" was a C header file [...]

Indeed. In my opinion too little to call it a day, but I haven't worked on implementing file handling, so I may be wrong here.

> An implementation could be considered one way of providing a format/protocol > specification.

Not quite. Look at OpenVPN, which has hilarious situation: code is open, but protocol is effectively closed. You can't practically derive the protocol from OpenVPN's source (yes, I tried that). Unless you can put weeks of effort, of course.

<comment><USER5> So it's a closed protocol because it's hard to understand? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

<comment><USER3> No. It's closed because there's no specification or even an alternative implementation and you can't easily derive one.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>