Ask HN: How do you make money from your side projects? - <AUTHOR> Sure enough, not all side projects are meant to make money. But among those that do, what is your business model? <comment><USER2> Google Adsense + organic (non-paid) traffic == "passive" money.

Not an insane amount of money, of course, but enough that you can consider the project successful if you're getting a solid amount of views.

My largest project, [http://sleepyti.me](http://sleepyti.me), gets about 1.5 million unique views per month. The revenue Google Adsense brings in is not nearly enough support myself, but it's enough to make the effort feel solidly "worth it" in terms of development time and hosting costs (which are very low at this point).

How (or if) you should be monetizing depends on the nature of your side project. If your "side project" is a business -- say, designing WordPress themes -- then you should sell your product! If it's something that gets 50 views per month, maybe it's not the best candidate for monetization (and is instead a portfolio/resume builder). Either way, gaining experience building things is almost always a good thing.

<comment><USER3> Sorry, but I don't see any ads displayed. Am I missing something?

<comment><USER4> Check the console. The Google script throws an error related to availableWidth=0.

<comment><USER2> Wow, weird -- the ads display on my end. Thanks for the heads up, I'll check it out!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There's a great book called _Start Small, Stay Small: A Developer 's Guide to Launching a Startup_ by Rob Walling [1]. It's by far my favorite book I've read on this subject and made me reconsider my approach of trying to monetize a side project. It was written in 2010 but is still highly relevant and recommended here from time to time. (There's similar free content on his blog as well.)

One important idea from the book is the distinction of side project/product confusion:

> A project is a software application that you build as a fun side project. > The code is fun to write because you're not concerned about quality and > performance, and the end result is a neat little application that likely > isn't of use to many people.

> A product is a project that people will pay money for. In other words, it's > a project that has a market (a group of people who want to buy it). Without > a market, a software application is just a project.

I think it's important to start in the right place here. Both approaches are fun but they have opposing goals. If you want to build a product that makes money, start with the market. If you want to build a side project... that's great, just keep in mind that when a side project tries to tack on "and make money" later, it mostly doesn't work.

[1]: [http://www.startupbook.net/](http://www.startupbook.net/)

<comment><USER6> Hmm, sounds just like that silly college hobby project Facemash ;)

<comment><USER5> And that started with the market of students at Harvard. Even if they weren't the ones to ultimately "buy" it in dollars, they did buy with their time and attention. That said, most of the book's advice is geared toward SaaS products.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> 1) I write side project.

2) I put side project technologies on my resume.

3) I put side project link on my resume.

4) I put my resume on LinkedIn.

5) I get a raise during my next performance review (or next job)

I write side projects when I want to try a new technology in order to integrate it into my flow. I don't make money from putting a couple of JS libraries and generating an automatic ping pong game from Bitcoin transactions ([https://writecodeeveryday.github.io/projects/bitpong/](https://writecodeeveryday.github.io/projects/bitpong/)) but I do get the experience on Websockets for clients.

<comment><USER8> Nothing beats a little LinkedIn profile polishing when it comes to passive salary renegotiation.

<comment><USER7> > passive salary renegotiation

Is that what we call it now? I always called it "emoragequitting". Basically when stress + work > current_paycheck and you decide to shop around.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Currently a student in college and I'm working on [https://www.60secondseveryday.com](https://www.60secondseveryday.com), the fastest way of daily journaling.

I charge a subscription fee - either $5.99 or $9.99 a month. One of the hardest things for me to learn is that as developers, we tend to price things too low and don't really value our work enough.

60 Seconds Everyday is currently trending on Product Hunt too!

<comment><USER10> cool idea. how has the response been? i've had ideas for similar micro projects for personal workflow and task management but haven't pulled the trigger.

<comment><USER9> People really love it! I think slowly forgetting our memories over time is a problem everyone can relate to, which is why most people immediately "get it" when they see it.

The challenge is reducing churn because it's trying to change habits (which is very, very difficult). I'm still working on implementing things to make the product more sticky like Flashback emails (ex. "Here's what you were doing on this day last week/month/year") and integrating your journal entries with your photos.

What sorts of ideas are you thinking about? And what's stopping you?

<comment><USER11> I was writing about solving the problem of forgetting memories over time (or trying to memorize them and clunky own brain with unnecessary noise): [http://lukaszkups.net/2017/01/29/In-search-of-the-Golden- Gra...](http://lukaszkups.net/2017/01/29/In-search-of-the-Golden-Grail-of- productivity/)

(IMHO it is somehow related about general productivity, to that's why I've named it as it is).

tldr;

I try to write short notes every day that sums whole day in 1-2 simple sentences. Everything is stored in my small notebook (moleskine-like, which You can take everywhere with You in the pocket).

In the same place, I also moderate two lists: TODOs and TODON'Ts - one gather things that helps me to be productive and the other that doesn't work for me and should be avoided in the future.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> About 18 months ago, I launched [https://techeventsnetwork.com/cities](https://techeventsnetwork.com/cities)

It aggregates tech events (mostly meetups, conferences, workshops, etc) across ~50 US cities and tweets them out and broadcasts a weekly mailing list. Hashtags, time of day of messages, including/filtering submissions, etc are driven by some simple machine learning. It's grown from basically nothing to ~13M+ impressions last year and is on track to generate ~30M this year.

The business model is affiliate links to the conferences and workshops. It turns out when you find 5-10k tech people in a given geography who are trying to improve their skills and network, event organizers come to you.

I do _not_ include jobs, job fairs, etc though I know that would make more.

<comment><USER12> Also, I don't clear things with Meetup organizers before including their events. The system finds, classifies, and includes them itself anyway.

But I have gotten exactly one complaint from an organizer who ended up with 2x the expected attendees. Many other organizers have written thank you notes and spread the word.

<comment><USER13> Awesome project.

How does the system find and classifies the event?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I have been reading this site for a bit; there's a lot of good info here: [https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses](https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses)

<comment><USER15> Indeed, IndieHackers is a great place for this kind of information. I just did an interview there[1] for the desktop app I'm working on called Insomnia.

Insomnia[2] started as a small side-project to help software developers communicate with REST APIs. It gradually got more and more popular – to the point where I left my job to pursue it full-time. The business model is fairly simple, with an add-on subscription model to access cloud sync and team features, but it's worked well so far! I've been full-time for 8 months and made $800 last month.

I'd be happy to answer any questions if you have any.

[1]: [https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/insomnia](https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/insomnia)

[2]: [https://insomnia.rest](https://insomnia.rest)

<comment><USER6> Nice one. Out of coincidence I had your Indie Hackers interview open in another tab. This blog is really high quality with a lot of attention to design detail. Courtland does really good podcasts too. I was reluctant to sign up for yet another email list, but it's one of the few emails I really look forward to receiving every week. A really good resource. My only complaint is that the podcasts won't play on my Nexus. Need to download them, but that's no big deal. Would be really great if that was fixed though.

<comment><USER16> I play them on my Nexus using Pocket Casts, but it does require download. You can also open the link from feedburner and stream the mp3 directly in a browser

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> An industrial design friend of mine and I started [https://enstaved.com](https://enstaved.com) after I had a really positive reaction to the Pythonic Staff of Enlightenment ([https://jimter.net/pythonic- staff/](https://jimter.net/pythonic-staff/)) at PyCon AU 2016 (more than one person asked me "where can I buy one?").

We've just started selling customised modular staves to people who use them as props, novelties or promo items. We've become good at 3D printing via much learning at our makerspace ([http://sparkcc.org](http://sparkcc.org)) and so with a couple of printers we can basically run our own small-scale manufacturing business.

Currently we just take orders via email and word of mouth but we're building a website that allows people to customise their own staff (like in a video game).

<comment><USER18> Oh I love this ;)

Will there be a Django one? [http://avalonstar.com/journal/2008/the-web- framework-for-pon...](http://avalonstar.com/journal/2008/the-web-framework- for-ponies/)

<comment><USER17> Wow, the pony might be tricky but we have a great designer. Send us an email via the address on the website and we'll see what we can do!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Not much. I use side projects to try out ideas and learn new skills - and if they cover their costs or make a bit of money, then great.

Of course I'd love to hit on something that meant I could quit the day job, but I think that unlikely.

In 2011 I built www.illustrators.co, a multi-vendor marketplace for artists to sell their work. I met some cool people and learned web development and UX in the process, completely changing my career trajectory. It just about covers costs, despite languishing for the last few years. I'd love to work on it full time.

In addition make and sell prints of public domain images. A chance to experiment further with online marketing and selling and building sites with static generators. I also make and sell cyanotype prints of my photographs. Mostly to experiment with photography processes.

I'm currently building a compendium of UX concepts, methods, tools, books and events. Mostly to help me better understand the subject, but it may also be useful to others.

</comment><comment><USER20> I am partial to the business model of asking people to pay me for my services or for things that I've made.

My latest side project is [https://www.smsinbox.net](https://www.smsinbox.net), which provides a drop-in chat interface for Twilio apps. It's targeted at developers who use Twilio in their apps, and want to easily expose a two-way messaging interface to their users. It doesn't make a ton of money right now, but definitely covers costs.

<comment><USER21> thanks for sharing -- i have a perfect use case for this.

built a twilio app, sorta like "mailchimp for texting," and was dreading building a back/forth reply system.

trying this out in the next few days, you'll see my signup come through with a domain that starts with 'G' if you want to chat.

<comment><USER20> Fantastic! I'll send you an email shortly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> For me, side projects are about cash, not fun. I try to find contract jobs that look easy, bid really high knowing I won't get the vast majority of them, and do a good job for the people who actually hire me.

<comment><USER23> Any suggestions on how you find contract jobs?

[I write C, C++, do algorithm development, and also automation -- anything from embedded firmware to large optimized math for HPC, to even the (non-UI side of) mobile apps. I've done some amount of contract work in the past but am in the middle of a long (and annoying) dry spell and looking for new sources.]

<comment><USER24> It's pretty popular problem. I recently got this book "The Positioning Manual for Technical Firm" by Philip Morgan from my friend and it's basically about how to move from generalist to in-demand specialist. The book has exercises how to determine for who and what service you could provide to position yourself as specialist. Maybe you will find this useful.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I tried an Amazon affiliate link (similar to [https://kenrockwell.com](https://kenrockwell.com)) on my blog ([https://frdmtoplay.com](https://frdmtoplay.com)). 6000 views over 4 months has lead to 2 conversions for $12. For my level of traffic that's better than ads, but still not covering hosting costs.

<comment><USER26> I feel like Amazon affiliate money is "swingy" I have affiliate links when I review or recommend books on my blog (arthur-johnston.com) I won't make any money for a few months and then I'll make $50 in a month.

The only consistent earnings I get is every summer my article "3 books developers should read when they graduate"(1) makes me some money. My assumption is there are a lot of CS grads who need the advice :)

1\. [https://medium.com/@the_ajohnston/three-books-developers- sho...](https://medium.com/@the_ajohnston/three-books-developers-should-read- when-they-graduate-5ee228251dd2)

<comment><USER27> Might want to include an affiliate disclaimer in your post. Amazon is quite picky about disclosures.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I sell a Unity plugin for live inspecting and update of game objects and properties on a build deployed to a device: [http://u3d.as/sHr](http://u3d.as/sHr). Ordinarily you can't do this; once your game is on your device you can debug it with VS or MonoDevelop but you can't inspect any of the game objects on there and tweak settings. I think it's a really useful tool and something that should be built into Unity.

It's averaged US$340 gross per month since last May but it's been hard to grow it. I think in some ways it's quite a technical tool and you need to be interested in actually debugging issues on device, but there are a lot of people using Unity who aren't super technical. Also it doesn't lend itself to sexy screenshots. I've noticed some of the successful plugins are those which are about creating things, and they get a lot of people sharing screenshots of things they've created on the forums.

<comment><USER29> Pretty cool, I'm in the same boat as you (see my other reply VR-step Unity plugin). Decent revenue but can't really grow it much more....

<comment><USER28> Thanks! Yeah I'm struggling to think of ways to market Unity plugins. It seems like the main thing most people do is post on the Unity forums, and tweet about the product. There aren't many other places to advertise since the products are so tied to Unity.

Some plugins solve major pain points for Unity users who are not super technical, like the Prime31 mobile plugins, so they are very popular. I think if you can build something like that then you have a good shot at success.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Not a novel idea, or necessarily easy, but solve a problem for a business. A niche calculator, a pdf template, a better way to view publicly available date, a site widget, etc.

If you gain some traction, there is ad revenue to be gained. I have found even 100 to 300 page views a day is enough to start seeing a few dollars each day. B2B ads pay out more. I've seen single clicks bring in $5+. Once built, not usually much you have to do after that, and they will typically grow slowly over time. And I feel good about them, because I know businesses are getting actual value out of them.

I have not struck the right chord with affiliate revenue yet. But I know there is money to be made with the right niche. I think you need to be a little more invested in affiliate sites, and have a real interest. These sites seem to require a steady flow of new content, though you may be able to automate some of it.

<comment><USER27> I agree. I started on an affiliate site and while i consider it passive income, there is some level of involvement on a regular basic. I realised that frequent updates keep Google's indexing bots happy. Stagnating content tends to drop in rank after a while.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I personally use niche websites and affiliate marketing for generating pretty passive income. If you can drive traffic using keyword research, it's becomes really passive after the articles go up.

Google Adsense + Amazon Associates can bring in quite a good bit if done correctly.

Sidenote: If you guys are interested in passive income discussions, you should probably join the live chat on IRC.

[http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=%23%23passiveincome&ui...](http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=%23%23passiveincome&uio=MTY9dHJ1ZSYyPXRydWUac)

</comment><comment><USER32> Amazon affiliate program - [http://hackernewsbooks.com/](http://hackernewsbooks.com/). With enough visitors you can make some serious money with it.

</comment><comment><USER33> I made [https://comments.network/](https://comments.network/) to integrate HN comments into your static page. If it takes off I hope to get money either through subscriptions or from advertising (it is clearly explained there). So far a couple of sites used it that got into the front-page and it handles them a lot better than expected, so there's a really low cost associated to it.

<comment><USER34> Regarding paying for this service.

From HN users perspective: Can you really charge money for displaying my comment?

From a website perspective: Am I paying for the redirection? If HN goes down/closes shop - are the comments lost? I assume you cannot scrape HN and essentially "sell" the comments.

I haven't thought too much into this (nor did I read your kinda long website).

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I created ruby gem knapsack to speed up testing and I built a Pro version which is SaaS [https://knapsackpro.com](https://knapsackpro.com)

I definitely learned a lot during last year while emailing with people interested in the product. Thanks to that I improved my tool iteratively while the early adopters discovered new areas or edge cases about testing I didn't even think about.

This week I published success story about running tests across 100 parallel CI nodes with my tool: [http://docs.knapsackpro.com/2017/auto-balancing-7-hours- test...](http://docs.knapsackpro.com/2017/auto-balancing-7-hours-tests- between-100-parallel-jobs-on-ci-buildkite-example)

</comment><comment><USER35> I sell productivity tools - Chrome Extensions and a SaaS - that solve my own problems in a niche. All of them run subscriptions with varying kinds of free/trial access, depending on the audience and the cost to me.

If you're curious on the details, I wrote a post recently about getting to $100/month with them: [https://www.simonmweber.com/2017/01/09/side-project- income-2...](https://www.simonmweber.com/2017/01/09/side-project- income-2016-0-to-100.html).

</comment><comment><USER36> I have a lot of little side projects. My greatest monetary success helps solve a real problem so I'd suggest that. It's not about making a living — I love when people use my stuff. Here's my experience:

> I made a stamp calculator for any postage for my own use then shared it > online. It's all organic traffic via google searches and lots of repeat > users. One google ad that pays for my server and a few meals a month. A > Pennsylvania post office uses it to help the Amish! I love that. > [http://fancyham.com/stamp_calculator](http://fancyham.com/stamp_calculator)

> Just released a music notation iMessage sticker set For a music teacher > friend. My goal for this one: long tail. We'll see! > [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/music-notation-sticker- > pack/...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/music-notation-sticker- > pack/id1216360339?mt=8&ct=hackernews&at=1001l574&ls=1) > [http://fancyham.com/#notation](http://fancyham.com/#notation)

> Helvetica shirts for font nerds like myself: Lots of sales at first through > Twitter, but nothing now that the fed has passed. Other folks copied the > idea, too. [http://fancyham.com/shirts](http://fancyham.com/shirts)

> Geiger counter app, secretly controlled by pressure on the screen, that > always drops jaws but just a few sales a month. > [http://fancyham.com/#detecto](http://fancyham.com/#detecto)

I do UX design for a living and while these are fun creative outlets and an opportunity to try some programming, I think of these as play, not work.

Though I'd like to say these projects bring in money via boosting my day job, I don't know if that's true. These are such quick and dirty projects that I haven't mentioned them on my resume.

Though, I have been inspired recently by Nadja Buttendorf's 'brutalist' HTML site: [http://nadjabuttendorf.com/](http://nadjabuttendorf.com/) I'm going to embrace the ugly.

</comment><comment><USER29> I sell a Unity plugin that lets people navigate mobile VR using walking-in- place: [https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/60450](https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/60450)

Not a huge money maker (>300 copies sold) but I also filed a patent on it in 2015, so hopefully a larger VR company will see our locomotion technique as an essential step (no pun) to bring VR to the masses, since it reduces cybersickness.

<comment><USER37> I'd continue to innovate. A patent is super-resting-on-your-laurels in my opinion.

This may work for the next few months but you are going to face really tough competition when pucks come out, not to mention other VR components.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> Amazon affiliate links. (Yeah, yeah, I need to diversify. Ain't easy making opportunities.) It works well if your site is designed to improve the shopping experience.

</comment><comment><USER39> I recently started [https://uncover.cc](https://uncover.cc), an aggregator to help you stay on-top of new releases from your favourite authors.

To monetize it, I use Amazon affiliate links. When Uncover tells you about new books, it presents links to buy those books on Amazon, for which I earn a commission.

So far, it has not been a huge moneymaker; I have made exactly $2.10 USD.

Still, if it can make ~$10 a month, it covers its cost, which is good enough for me.

<comment><USER40> I don't really follow individual authors, but I'd be interested in being able to follow the market of "books like A Song of Fire and Ice/Fooled by Randomness". The market for related books might be much hotter for you and lead to more conversions, if you could figure out a way to figure out similar books.

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> I initially charged 9$ for my desktop shareware product. This was 7 years back. I thought the app was worth only 9$ that time. But when I understood many people purchased it, I increased to 19$, then 40$ now, but with many more features over the time. I make an average of 800$/month. Stopped using Stripe because of their heavy chargeback fees and bad dispute mechanism. Uses only PayPal to accept payment.

</comment><comment><USER42> I had a serious side hobby which was performance art related. I took gigs when and if they came. If that was my full-time job like most aspiring artists, I would have been a starving artist.

Also while being fully employed as an engineer, I would take side projects, contracts etc that I would work on during the evenings and weekends. Eventually that became my full time job. I now run a small consultancy.

</comment><comment><USER43> I mine social media data and in turn, find over/under reactions in the stock market and employ an options based trading strategy on it.

<comment><USER44> Very curious to know, what kind of figures do you pull up?

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> My now full-time work [https://officesnapshots.com](https://officesnapshots.com) started out as a side project while teaching history ~10 years ago and the main source of revenue was and continues to be advertising.

<comment><USER27> Neat site. When did you launch? I had a similar idea like this a few months ago. Glad to know someone actually did it!

<comment><USER45> I started the site in 2007 but it wasn't really what I would consider a "launch" in today's thinking. Just seemed like something fun to do and it's been growing ever since.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> [https://jsonip.com](https://jsonip.com) serves something north of 10 million requests a day last time I checked. It's a free service I've run for years. I'm open to suggestions.

<comment><USER47> Your "Pro" version [http://getjsonip.com](http://getjsonip.com) isn't working fyi. Just shows me a blank page.

<comment><USER46> Weird me too. Then reloaded and it appeared.

<comment><USER48> Seems to be the HTTPS Everywhere browser plugin that results in a blank page for me, debug console says:

      platform.launchrock.com/v1/getLaunchedSiteInfo:1 POST https://platform.launchrock.com/v1/getLaunchedSiteInfo net::ERR_INSECURE_RESPONSE
      platform.launchrock.com/v1/getClientIP:1 POST https://platform.launchrock.com/v1/getClientIP net::ERR_INSECURE_RESPONSE

Which makes sense, since the certificate for [https://platform.launchrock.com](https://platform.launchrock.com) has expired, if I disable HTTPS Everywhere, the site loads just fine.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> Webshop with 1 product, just went into the newspaper today ( quite pleased about this)

Getting projects from personal connections is pretty easy ( eg websites, shops, ... ), got some money on a webapp ( not much though) and hosting off course.

</comment><comment><USER50> I charge a one time fee. No recurring revenue here because people tend to shy away from it in my markets. Its ok because no overhead and I get a bigger lump sum.

</comment><comment><USER51> Currently building something in the data science space myself. Mostly for the Enterprise though.

</comment><comment><USER52> Sales through the macOS App Store.

</comment><comment><USER53> I built a SaaS product that makes decent passive income ($3500~/month) and continues to grow.

I'm working on a second SaaS product at the moment.

<comment><USER54> Able to give any context of what the SaaS product is, industries it targets, average monthly user revenue or even how long you've been running it?

<comment><USER53> I'd rather leave the industry and product out, but I'll tell you it's an industry every one of you have been a apart of at one point or another, it's nothing special. I'd also like to say there were/are many competitors in the market.

The current pricing is about $10 per-seat/month. I experimented with a few pricing points, it's not optimal by any standards but it works so I left it alone. I wanted to make it as accessible as possible.

The product has been running since last November (2016). It was profitable within the first week and has been growing ever since.

I did no paid ads and no content marketing or anything like that. I basically cold emailed people I thought would be interested in it. It grew organically from there. Now there's a lot of blogs and people at conferences talking about it and I get traffic from all over.

As for how much maintenance/time I spend on it?

At this point I spend between 0-60 minutes a week on technical/code maintenance.

I spend 0-20 minutes a day (in the morning) on answering support/feedback questions and cold emailing potential customers.

It's not something I have to do every day, but it works well for me.

<comment><USER55> How many emails did you send to get your first paying customer? What was the respond rate of your emails?

<comment><USER53> I didn't keep track, but the response rate wasn't great.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> Where would I find someone with a good knowledge of Deep learning to do some coding?

</comment><comment><USER56> Where would I find a coder with good knowledge of NN and reinforcement learning for a paid project?

<comment><USER57> contact me - you can check one of my submissions, it has my email.</comment></comment>


Wordpress vulnerability leads to defacement of hundreds of thousands of sites - <AUTHOR> https://blog.sucuri.net/2017/02/wordpress-rest-api-vulnerability-abused-in-defacement-campaigns.html <comment><AUTHOR> Our site got hacked by a guy who tagged our blog with "hacked by muhmademad", which seems to have a few hundred thousand results as of a minute ago.

Even large institutions and websites have been hit: Harvard, MIT, glennbeck.com, and many more.

Make sure to update to 4.7.2 if you are running a Wordpress install of 4.7.0 or 4.7.1. There's a REST vulnerability that allows someone to bypass authorization to update or post.

<comment><USER2> Question: Was the new REST API turned on automatically?

I don't use Wordpress, but if the answer is yes then it is completely dumb to increase the attack surface like that.

<comment><USER3> The new REST API is turned on automatically as of version 4.7.0.

My site was hit, as far as hacks go this one wasn't too bad. They defaced the last post, the solution was to revert to an earlier revision and upgrade WP to version 4.7.2.

If we would have had auto updates enabled then this attack would have been prevented. So the takeway from this is make sure that auto updates are enabled.

<comment><USER4> Why did you disable auto-updates?

<comment><USER5> Because updates occasionally break my site

<comment><USER4> Only security updates (v0.0.X) install automatically. Version change updates (vX.Y.0) always require a site owner to explicitly install them.

If you are doing things in WordPress that break with a security patch, you need to re-examine what it is you're doing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Wordpress is used for more than 25% of internet sites. That also means that is the CMS most hacked :)

Fortunately the WP and its community is working hard to fix the problems asap and make new release.

The major problem is that people doesn't update the cms. I really recommend the auto-updated and a good management of all plugins versions. If you are a delveoper and you are taking care of several wp sites, there are many plugin that can help you to manage the WP and plugins versions for a large number of sites.</comment>


Show HN: Exploding Fish – A URI Library for Clojure - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/wtetzner/exploding-fish <comment><USER2> The most interesting thing about this is the name; but then again, URI manipulation is not particularly interesting. How did the amusing choice of name come about?

<comment><USER3> Maybe not the source of the name, but the first thing that came to mind was the exploding whale of Florence, Oregon:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_t44siFyb4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_t44siFyb4)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_whale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_whale)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> People say Clojure is super functional, but here's an OOP based library. In my experience learning to program with immutability was the trickiest challange to overcome when learning Clojure. I had worked with C++ in college, then js/python in industry for a couple years before I took an interest in Clojure, so I didn't use many const features in C++. Possibly like most programmers, I was used to mutation-by-default.

<comment><USER5> Functional and OOP the way you seem to be thinking about them aren't necessarily at odds. If you don't immutably update objects and instead do 'return-the-updated-object' then it could fit in with functional. They seem to do this often in Haskell libraries for example. The weird thing is the notion of identity across OOP and Functional--you can have shared handles to an underlying object modified by separate code in traditional OOP.

Mixing paradigms is interesting. My favorite is to not do class-based object oriented, but prototype-based instead, with multiple parents like in Self. I wonder how that would combine with immutable objects.</comment></comment>


IEEE Milestones Honor Two Historical Breakthroughs at AT&T Laboratories - <AUTHOR> http://theinstitute.ieee.org/technology-focus/technology-history/ieee-milestones-honor-two-historical-breakthroughs-at-att-laboratories <comment><AUTHOR> The breakthroughs are

\- ASCII

\- TAT-8, the eighth transatlantic telecommunications cable. The first fiber- optic cable to be laid across an ocean.</comment>


Boeing's Homicides Will Give Way to Safety Reforms if Flyers Organize - <AUTHOR> https://nader.org/2019/04/04/boeings-homicide-will-give-way-to-safety-reforms-if-flyers-organize/ <comment><USER2> One thing I don't understand is why is no one is criminally charging Boeing's C-levels. Hundreds of lives were lost thanks to their greed.

I say that because everyday at work I am fighting stupid deadlines and ridiculous suggestions to skip QA, unit tests, and other processes to meet those deadlines.

If we criminally charge executives when their products cause loss and deaths, then I suspect they will start respecting processes and sane deadlines. Right now, there are no consequences for them. The worst that can happen is their stock options lose some value or they lose their job with multimillion dollar golden parachute. All they have to do is wait a few months and then get another job or start their own business.

</comment><comment><USER3> I've been curious about some questions that I haven't seen discussed anywhere. HN isn't probably the best place to ask them but since I'm not on any forums where aerospace engineers hang out, I'll just ask here anyway:

\- Are physics computer simulations (e.g. aerodynamic flow[0]) realistic enough that engineers could have _predicted_ the tendency for the nose to push up into a stall with the forward-mounted bigger engines while still at the CAD drawing stage? (Place some engines on the drawing with X amount of specified thrust, move them forward on the wing, then run a simulation, etc.) Or is the interaction of behavior so complex or so subtle that they had to _build the real thing_ before realizing _" Oops, our internal test pilots just noticed the plane is unstable and it looks like we need a software augmentation system!"_

\- Could an unchanged 737-MAX flight simulator from last year reproduce the conditions for the Lion Air and Ethopia crashes? In other words, could a pilot used his/her _imagination_ and said, _" What if we make this AOA indicator give a bad reading -- what happens with MCAS?"_. Similar to how a pilot can choose to simulate a flamed-out engine, could one have chosen a stress-test scenario with a broken AOA sensor? (The infamous deleted video from MentourPilot showed his simulated struggles with turning the stabilizer trim against 400mph aerodynamic loads but it's not clear if a broken AOA can be simulated.)

Yes, the 737-MAX was ultimately a failure of _management and financial pressure_ but I'm curious if Boeing even had the _technical debugging tools_ to predict this.

[0] examples: [https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aerodynamics++s...](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aerodynamics++simulation)

<comment><USER4> >Are physics computer simulations (e.g. aerodynamic flow[0]) realistic enough that engineers could have predicted the tendency for the nose to push up into a stall with the forward-mounted bigger engines while still at the CAD drawing stage? (Place some engines on the drawing with X amount of specified thrust, move them forward on the wing, then run a simulation, etc.) Or is the interaction of behavior so complex or so subtle that they had to build the real thing before realizing "Oops, our internal test pilots just noticed the plane is unstable and it looks like we need a software augmentation system!"

Yes. They knew full well that the MAX would do that in circumstances where a normal 737 would not. There is nothing wrong with the MAX's performance characteristics. The aircraft itself is perfectly safe to fly. What isn't safe is the half baked MCAS system they used to deal with that edge case so they could avoid having to retrain pilots.

<comment><USER5> >There is nothing wrong with the MAX's performance characteristics. The aircraft itself is perfectly safe to fly

How do we know? because the FAA approval is not ensuring me that there are not any other problematic systems where Beoing self approved the corner cuts they made. IMO a full re-approval is needed with a trust worthy institution is needed before you can claim that the airplane is "perfectly safe"

<comment><USER6> FAR 25, perhaps specifically 25.171-25.181 related to stability but there are separate sections on stall behavior, controllability, maneuverability, performance, etc.

Those things must be demonstrated to get an airworthiness certificate under that part. Is this FAR all encompassing of that which makes an airplane safe or not? Because we have an airplane that was so certified, and yet we have two crashes that directly contradict their safety (hence they're grounded).

I'm less concerned that these planes are somehow, without computers, not complying with FAR 25. I'm more concerned that Boeing (and FAA) will accept a software only fix, and continue to avoid a type certificate for this derivative model aircraft, and thus avoid any additional training for pilots. Basically, I expect Boeing will take the full hit, i.e. the software was flawed and now it is fixed, so that airlines won't be dinged for any on-going training requirement.

Thus far the market isn't significantly dinging Boeing's value. Today's price is the same as it was in September of last year before either accident happened. The market is effectively saying those accidents don't matter that much, cost wise.

Unless more information comes out that suggests there was wrong doing by either Boeing or the FAA. That could change the whole calculus.

<comment><USER5> I am not optimistic either, if the crashes happened in US then I am sure things would have been different.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Turn off MCAS. Train the pilots on the MAX like it's a new type. Problem solved. This whole problem exists because Boeing tried to use software to fudge how the plain handles in order to avoid expensive retraining. Bite the bullet, train the pilots and the problem doesn't exist anymore.

This entire article comes across as though an old man has read something he doesn't like in the newspaper and is suddenly an expert on it in order to justify his outrage when in reality the situation is much more nuanced than his understanding.

<comment><USER7> It's not that simple. I don't believe the unassisted aircraft meets the stick force/stability requirements of FAR 25. Even if it were a completely new type, it would need some sort of stability augmentation to be certifiable.

<comment><USER8> Meeting FAR 25 is generally done by adding something like hydraulics, or electric engines to assist in moving control surfaces. Both solutions capable of working even in thte case of full engine and power shutdowns.

To put an automated system on top of your force assists just seems like asking for trouble. In layman's terms, the more you pile on, the more that can go wrong.

All that said, as a matter of full disclosure, I only know how to fly planes, not really an aeronautical engineer.

<comment><USER7> There are lots of ways to meet the handling and stability requirements for certification. You could just design the airframe to have the right stick force profile, you could have old school mechanical/hydraulic augmentation systems, you could have an electronic augmentation system like MCAS, or you could do what Airbus does and simulate the forces and responses of a virtual airplane, and then have the computer actually do the flying.

These all can be done in reasonable and safe ways. Boeing just didn't do it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Isn't the Boeing incident a symptom of poor engineering practices? Spaceships by all accounts seem to have similar if not higher levels of computer- controlled overrides to actually make the damn thing fly past Earth's atmosphere. The difference of course being that spaceship software is rigorously tested whereas Boeing was very lax in their implementation so they could rush the plane out the door.

I don't see a problem with the idea of delegating aspects of flight to the computer - just fix the software engineering practices that lead to this tragedy. Please. :)

<comment><USER5> There is a more important issue that is ignored in many comments here, the FAA supervision, what if are dozens of rushed system in this plane, how can you trust that MCAS is the only system with faulty software or design?

<comment><USER8> I think you've hit on the exact reason a lot of the flying public will be sitting out most of the 737 MAX flights when they return to service.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> As much as I think that Boeing took the wrong decision when going for the MAX instead of replacing the 737 from ground up and that the way the MCAS was developed and put into operations was a big disaster, both from Boeing and the FAA, as much do I disagree with that article.

First of all, while most public know evidence points at MCAS as the source for the crashes, the accident investigations have not concluded yet. The article doesn't even mention that. But, with all what we know so far, Boeing has good reasons to significantly overwork the MCAS software and is doing so.

I am not an aviation expert, but from all I have heard about the 737 MAX (from actual pilots), it looks like the airplane itself is not the issue, it was the specific faults in the MCAS implementation and that the pilots were not properly trained on the aircraft. Beyond fixing the obvious issues with the MCAS implementation, the biggest item for bringing the 737 MAX back into business needs to be pilot training. Training both how to fly the machine with MCAS deactivated as well as dealing with the potential failure szenarios of the MCAS system.

Of course, the whole certification process for the 737 MAX needs to be reviewed to guarantee that the machine has the level of airworthyness one would expect. This is probably the most time-consuming step on the way to restoring its flight-status, but the most necessary one.

Assuming that the 737 MAX after a significant update to the MCAS system passes a proper certification, in contrast to the article I would strongly argue for it to return into service. As much as we know for now, the machine isn't inherently unsafe to fly. But a cancellation could have drastic effects on air travel safety. Boeing decided against a new design in 2011 because of time constraints, and it is now 8 years later. A proper replacement for the 737 MAX wouldn't be ready for many years, probably only at the end of the next decade. If you are worried about safety, you certainly don't want Boeing to rush the development of a new design. Also, there would be little alternatives for replacement. Airbus could increase its output, but that also bears risk of general safety. As does flying the machines, the 737 MAX was meant to replace for more years.

So, unless other issues with the 737 MAX are found in review, it definitely should be put back into business.

<comment><USER11> Taking your argument a bit farther: let's assume that indeed the only issue present is a faulty MCAS implementation and that gets fixed. If the aircraft comes with additional training and certification requirements for pilots before it can be safely operated, then arguably it cannot be lumped into the same type rating as the 737NG.

This would destroy the main selling point for Boeing (training pilots for a different type rating is a massive expense and headache for airlines), and would also mean that across the world there would be no pilots allowed to fly the existing 737MAX.

The point about not cancelling the 737MAX because of the risk that the new models developed would be rushed and unsafe due to Boeing rushing the development of a new design is... not very plausible I'm afraid.

<comment><USER10> You misunderstood me.

Yes, I think that at least more training/certification of the pilots for the 737 MAX is needed.

My argument was, that after fixing MCAS and proper recertifying the 737 MAX there is no fundamental reason not to put it back into business. And that not putting it back into business also carries some safety risks. I never claimed that it should be put back into business because of that.

But Nader didn't present a fundamental reason why the machine would be unsafe and completely ignored the consequences of permanentely grounding the 737 MAX.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The story that isn't being told is that smaller companies such as Bombardier and Embraer have made the investments in "clean sheet" small airliners that are much better than the 737 in every way.

Boeing has used it's market power to keep these away from passenger and airlines.

So it's not just a matter of people getting killed. It's people getting killed so you can pay more for airline tickets, have less room and comfort when you fly, have less frequent flights, hear more noise from airplanes, and experience more global warming.

As for global warming note also that the 737 has terrible takeoff performance, even under favorable conditions it has twice the takeoff distance of some much larger airliners. Every hot summer you will hear that "airplanes are grounded because of the heat, but really "737s are grounded because of the heat" because the 737 can barely take off as it is.

This is what secular stagnation looks like. It is undercompetition and underinvestment, just like we see with wireline internet service in the US. Don't let neoliberals fool you with the "there is no alternative" line because there is.

<comment><USER13> Bad takeoff performance does not mean a bad airframe. Takeoff performance and things like global warming (fuel efficiency) are often inversely related. No aircraft is perfect at all things. The big wings needed for shorter takeoff during a Nevada summer can mean more drag at altitude. Boeing builds for average customer conditions, not just the special case that is Vegas. (Altitude+heat+dry air = low air density = need bigger wings, bigger engines, and/or longer takeoff roll.)*

*There is probably some room here for a joke about how people leave Vegas heavier than they were when they landed.

<comment><USER12> The A220 is highly fuel efficient and it is the only current mainstream airliner that can land at London City airport.

737 SUX and that is it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Read it and agree. I also want to ask if this model is on my flight. Do not want.

</comment><comment><USER15> That position in the linked article is a bit extreme.

The situation can be easily and safely fixed in software, but it will cost a lot of money.

The MCAS system needs to step back to being an advisory-only system, just warning the pilots if it thinks a stall is immanent (and validate sensor inputs too). Then we will need to have extensive pilot training to deal with the different flight characteristics in the 737 MAX.

This means a new type rating, which costs time and money... which the MCAS system was created to avoid.

But yeah, the system as-is shouldn't be allowed to continue.

<comment><USER16> > The MCAS system needs to step back to being an advisory-only system, just > warning the pilots if it thinks a stall is immanent (and validate sensor > inputs too). Then we will need to have extensive pilot training to deal with > the different flight characteristics in the 737 MAX.

There is already a stall warning alarm on all modern planes and have been for decades.

I've only flown Cessnas (which all have stall warning horns), but from what I've read the intention of the MCAS is to reproduce the "stick feel" of an older 737 at high angles of attack and high thrust.

The MAX is not "fly-by-wire" it has mechanical cable linkages from the stick to the control surfaces, forces are transmitted in both directions which the pilot can literally feel as resistance to control inputs. Boeing inadvertently changed the _feeling_ of the airplane's response to the pilot. An older 737 would present much more resistance to pulling the plane harder into a stall, the MAX has less resistance. MCAS was intended to provide artificial resistance.

<comment><USER15> > _There is already a stall warning alarm on all modern planes and have been > for decades._

Yes, which _by intentional design_ doesn't cover every situation you would encounter with the 737 MAX... because they wanted to make it more similar to the 737 NG. Which, I think we can agree, was a mistake.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> The key takeaway here is that _the public_ will decide if they want the 737 Max or not. Boeing may have to shift to promoting Embraer designs (which they now own) while it develops a new small aircraft the public can trust, if such thing is even necessary.

Public confidence in the DC-10 was destroyed after it had a series of related and back-to-back accidents. The plane was relegated to cargo status and Douglas never recovered financially, eventually selling to Boeing.

<comment><USER17> > The plane was relegated to cargo status

No, it went back into passenger service and received further orders. American Airlines removed the "DC-10" sticker from the nose and carried on.

I flew on the last commercial passenger service of a DC-10 in 2014.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> you might want to read @GregTravis' article on the IEEE or here: [https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1334482](https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1334482) which is also on HN. The IEEE is one of the most in depth pieces that I've read on the subject, and this comment by Boeing in this Quartz article: [https://qz.com/1603726/boeing-says-there-was-no-technical- sl...](https://qz.com/1603726/boeing-says-there-was-no-technical-slip-or-gap- in-the-737-max/) just leaves a lot to be desired.

</comment><comment><USER19> "The overriding problem is the basic unstable design of the 737 Max. _An aircraft has to be stall proof_ not stall prone."

Say what?

<comment><USER20> The MAX has flight envelopes that are inherently unstable. The plan can get into a state where the aerodynamics of the plane make a stall worse, not better.

For instance, the fact that the center of thrust is further forward (compared to other 737s) means that the plane pitches up when you give it more throttle. The default response to a stall is to increase the power, which pitches the nose up, which raises the angle of attack, which makes the stall worse. This inherent instability is why the MCAS was added to the MAX.

<comment><USER19> Not a pilot, but I thought stall recovery is done through nose down first. Turbine engines take some time to respond to throttle up command and thrust on a loaded commercial plane is limited anyhow.

An airframe is supposed to have a nose down tendencies upon stalling, which would make it recoverable.

The Max may be more prone to stalling, but no one in their right mind would design a commercial airliner which can't be recovered from stall.

<comment><USER20> > I thought stall recovery is done through nose down first

Exactly, which is why the nose-up tendency of the MAX is an issue.

<comment><USER4> Except it's not because you don't sit around waiting for the engines to spool going "oh deer, we're still stalling, if this continues I'll have to push the nose down". You nose down and power up in quick succession. This is basically muscle memory that every pilot has going back to their first day in a 172. And as the person you're replying to mentioned, nose down is the first thing. You don't put the throttle all the way forward until after you've put the nose down.

The issue here is MCAS. If they just trained the pilots on the handling characteristics of the MAX the increased stall tendency compared to a normal 737 would be a non-issue and they wouldn't need MCAS as the handling is still within the bounds of "perfectly reasonable".

<comment><USER20> I'm not suggesting that dropping the nose isn't the first action to be taken. My point that increasing the thrust (which is going to try to pitch the nose up) is part of the standard response to a stall (particularly at lower altitudes).

<comment><USER4> Of course but if you're recovering from a stall you're going to be very aware of where the aircraft is pointing. You're not going to let the aircraft pitch itself up on you if you're in the middle of telling it to nose down. The danger with pitching up is that the pilot and copilot might be absorbed in some other tasks during a climb and not notice it leading to a stall. That's not really a big of a risk in grand scheme of things but it's still a risk and that kind of maneuvering gets customers complaining. The solution was using MCAS to detect the conditions prior to that kind of stall and deal with it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> The author tells a familiar story of how we got here, but I think misses nuance on what the problem is. It's not the fact that software is used: it works fine normally, but the failure modes were insufficiently considered.

> An aircraft has to be stall proof not stall prone.

The F-117 begs to disagree.

<comment><USER20> Most combat jets "disagree". Most combat jets also have ejection seats for all occupants...

<comment><USER21> It's not completely fair of me to compare civil jets to combat ones, but in any case I'd argue that ejection seats are perhaps more useful for the other scenarios combat planes find themselves in.

<comment><USER20> Most ejections take place due to loss of control, not combat.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> How long before we see "Is my flight a 737 Max " app

<comment><USER23> Kayak added a filter for it last month.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Best of luck creating that stall-proof airliner...

</comment><comment><USER25> This looks like an attempt to get free press.

<comment><USER26> There's a bit of a nuance here - his grandniece was killed in the Ethiopian 737 accident [1] so it's personal at some level for him.

[1]: [https://www.npr.org/2019/04/04/709999296/ralph-nader- calls-f...](https://www.npr.org/2019/04/04/709999296/ralph-nader-calls-for- recall-of-boeing-737-max-jets-after-his-grandniece-was-kil)

<comment><USER25> Mmm... didn't know that. I understand _why_ now, but, "never letting the 737 max fly again" is a purely emotional decision that helps no-one. They didn't tear down a 45 story building after the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse, as example.

HN is showing a trend of purely blaming Boeing, but there were in fact several failures. Any one of: pilot training [There's a runaway stabilizer trim procedure that's actually a memory item for 737 pilots], not allowing single sensor inputs for flight control systems [FAA spec failure], the decision to allow the MCAS system to command an extreme amount of trim [engineering failure, should have been limited to a sane value] could have prevented the accidents.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> This windbag proclaimed the swingarm to be unsafe at any speed, but having won plenty of local races with an old beetle, and autocrossed some corvairs, this guy is out to lunch.

Sure, the sensor needs a redesign and some automation decisions were hot garbage, but 'never fly again' is just FUD.

<comment><USER5> >Sure, the sensor needs a redesign and some automation decisions were hot garbage, but 'never fly again' is just FUD.

Are you sure that only that except that MCAS all the other systems are fine and Boeing didn't cheap out on other systems, redesigned other things, other small updates etc? IMO the plane needs to be re-approved, this time for real.

<comment><USER10> Yes, for sure the whole approval process for the plane needs to be reviewed and repeated where necessary. But if it passed, it should fly again by all means.</comment></comment></comment>


Tamil Nadu govt slaps Rs 2,400 cr tax demand notice on Nokia - <AUTHOR> http://www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/tamil-nadu-govt-slaps-rs-2-400-cr-tax-demand-notice-on-nokia-114032100934_1.html

<comment><USER2> The Indian gov is such a farce as far as its policies are concerned regarding business. Vodafone, Formula One, Coal block allocation... ugh. What a gov !

Hope things change when the highly regarded Modi comes into power.</comment>


Windows 8.1 quietly gets released to manufacturers - <AUTHOR> http://guru8.net/2013/08/windows-8-1-quietly-gets-released-to-manufacturers/

<comment><USER2> I want Windows to do well, I wish them no harm. But I feel that sadly, "8" has become another "Vista" (perception). I'm bored with any news about it and barring some really _big_ changes there is not going to be anything left to woo me to it.

I hope the next CEO of Microsoft has some empathy for people who use their products. A little bit more care should be considered before _forcing_ broad sweeping changes. As big and as profitable as they are, would it have killed them to have _different_ GUI options available (classic 7 mode)?

I skipped Vista initially because there was no "UP" button for folder navigation. I had to install FileSearchEX for Windows 7. Maybe I'm in the 5% eccentric crowd.

<comment><USER3> Another Vista? Hardly.

As someone who has used Windows 8, and recently moved back to a PC with Windows 7. I think 8 is actually an improvement. Lots of little UI things that I really like (the copy dialog is much improved).

Sure, there are things that need improving. I sincerely hope I can turn off the start button in Win 8.1 rtm.

<comment><USER2> I want the underlying improvements too. I just wish the GUI changes weren't so jarring. When I say "Vista", I mean the perception, not the quality.

<comment><USER4> What GUI changes are jarring? I've been using it for 6 months and I would not go back to 7 because of the GUI changes alone. I'm starting to think I'm the only one that actually likes 8.

<comment><USER5> You aren't. I really like it but the disconnect between old style apps and the new style is jarring. The new apps and interface would be great on a tablet but feels clunky on my old laptop with a bad track pad. Also searching has been compartmentalized so to do some searches you need to type Win+w and know why you search is blank. Of course Win+r is still there so in practice its pretty easy to avoid.

<comment><USER6> FYI, Win 8.1 fixes the search thing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I believe Windows 8.1 ships with IE11, which means now all current desktop browsers support WebGL!

[http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl](http://caniuse.com/#search=webgl)

<comment><USER8> Safari still requires turning WebGL on in the (also off by default) developer menu.

<comment><USER9> Any idea why this is? I think I remember seeing some WebGL security concerns back when it was first getting going, but I assume those have been mitigated by now. I guess it's just Safari being behind on implementation?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> So Microsoft, I live in Bolivia; it's been quite a while now since Windows 8 has been released. Surely nearing 2014 I can _now_ purchase Windows 8 using my Paypal or Credit Card?

Edit: Nope, your updater still says my country is unsopported. :( Get with the times MS.

<comment><USER11> I think you are supposed to pirate windows 8 if you live in Bolivia.

By the way, do you know if Apple "supports" Bolivia?

<comment><USER12> Dunno, but you can download and install Ubuntu 12.04 or Fedora 19 rather easily.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Just checked my MSDN subscription - RTM is still not available there. Latest version available is still Windows 8.1 Preview. For anyone curious here's a good list of changes from 8.0 -> 8.1 right from Microsoft:

[http://technet.microsoft.com/en- us/windows/dn140266.aspx](http://technet.microsoft.com/en- us/windows/dn140266.aspx)

<comment><USER14> They're not throwing RTM out to MSDN subscribers from what I hear. Not good.

My sub expires in 3 months and I will not be renewing it. We're freezing dev and moving off .Net and Windows due to shit like this, rising costs, audits and MS support being beyond fucking useless unless you're a multi million pound customer.

<comment><USER15> Moving off .Net due to this? I must question if that's more of a knee-jerk reaction. VS still provides a fantastic experience, and Mono is very healthy. Certainly, _moving off_ .Net will have a higher cost to you than migrating to Mono runtimes?

<comment><USER14> It's not just this. Developer relations have gone to shit and visual studio on large projects like ours (2mloc c#) is a liability. Oh and add the schizophrenic nature of devdiv and it's just not worth it anymore. Need we say more: SQL licensing, Silverlight, windows workflow rewrite, EF is a piece of shit, MS11-100 (demon hotfix from hell). I could go on for days. We have blown over 24 days in the last 2 years on just phone calls to Microsoft.

We threw out partnership agreement in last year (we were gold).

Not going near Mono. It's another ghetto.

To be honest, our front end is going to python and the back end to postgres. Any critical sections go to C++.

<comment><USER15> So long it's not a the grass-is-greener effect. While I'm not pleased with a lot of Microsoft's recent developments, and C# seems to be an evolutionary dead-end, it's not like other platforms are beautiful. I'm sure there are lots of shit frameworks like EF on other platforms; it's not like EF is some critical piece of .NET. Personally, F# is the number one reason I'm still on .NET, with VS being a very strong second place.

I've had critical telecom services running on Mono for many years; not sure what "ghetto" means there. Xamarin also seems to be doing quite well with their cross-platform initiatives.

I've moved SQL Server apps to Postgres (due to licensing) and back (due to maintenance/replication). On another we're moving to PG again due to licensing. Postgres is great, but holy shit MSSQL provides a huge feature surface that's very accessible (licensing aside). SSMS is a dream compared to the ghetto of PG frontends (in my limited experience).

But if you can easily dump and rewrite, I'll admit, that is fun.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Does anyone know: Will Windows 8.1 be a free upgrade for existing Windows 8 customers?

Edit: Did some googling, it will be a free upgrade (for anyone else wondering) through the Microsoft Store.

<comment><USER17> I've been reluctant to sign up to the store. As I don't want any syncing to the cloud, it's unclear to me what's stored at MSs end, and what the repurcussions are from doing so.

This seems a tactical way to get us to sign up for a store account.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Smart. You don't want to be laughed out of the shops again. :-D

</comment><comment><USER19> Just for the rumors. Barclays using windows8 with start button for a long time. At least 6 month from now :)

</comment><comment><USER20> With all this revelations about spying and hacking and people still use windows. Priceless! I bet Bill Gates laughing his ass off, and at same time uses Mac/Linux him self O_o

<comment><USER21> You are right.. Let me switch over to SELinux... but wait that was made by NSA themselves...

Playing around the paranoia, don't you think the NSA would have taken a minute to think, Gee we forced Microsoft and Apple to include backdoors in their OSes, maybe we should now tackle the OS that powers 90% of the web? You know maybe we could slip a backdoor in the one of the utility apps such as "htop".

Let's get serious, OpenSource is not always = Secure and Closed Source does not always = InSecure. Truecrypt is the perfect example: Open sourced but too complex to Audit, maintainers identities are unknown and offered binaries differ from manual compilation.

A good rule of thumb: Assume anything you din't write or can't audit as insecure.

<comment><USER17> Yes, worrying.

[http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/allegations-openbsd- back...](http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/allegations-openbsd-backdoors- may-be-true)

Not sure what was confirmed on that story, but I remember reading it and thinking there wasn't much chance that I'd ever be able to audit my own system.

<comment><USER22> There's no chance at all that you completely could.

[http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html](http://cm.bell- labs.com/who/ken/trust.html)

Ken Thompson, 1984, explains how to get a system with perfectly clean source code to compile a hacked 'login' binary every time.

"In demonstrating the possibility of this kind of attack, I picked on the C compiler. I could have picked on any program-handling program such as an assembler, a loader, or even hardware microcode. As the level of program gets lower, these bugs will be harder and harder to detect. A well installed microcode bug will be almost impossible to detect."</comment></comment></comment></comment>


What I learned from watching six hours of Starcraft - <AUTHOR> http://areallybadidea.com/what-i-learned-from-watching-six-hours-of-sta <comment><USER3> The analogy to music distributors is a little off.

The SC2 replay casters are adding significant value to the content, in addition to sifting through what content is worthy of casting. They need to know where in the map to pan the camera, explain what is going on, decide which parts to fast-forward and pause, and probably many other nuances experienced SC2 players enjoy.

Casters are doing 2-3 jobs in one: pick one or two interesting replays each day out of many submitted, do all the work of a sports commentator, and then do all the work of a video editor (for non-live casts).

In other words, even if I knew a replay was a good one to watch, I'd prefer to watch it casted. On the other hand, a great song or a great sports game is probably fine on its own, but rarely a raw movie reel.

<comment><USER4> I'm more inclined to have casters in their own category instead of players vs. distributors. As leelin mentioned, casters add their own value by adding spit and polish to the games, which increases the reach on the games itself. Distribution platforms tend to not have any hands in the content but benefit more from getting a good "flow" of content through their network. As for monetization though, in every industry, there are outliers in each category that make a lot more money but in general, (successful) distribution platforms generate the most nominal revenues and frequently the people adding polish don't. The more skill/polish added though, the higher the premium it seems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> The usual "Don't dig for gold, sell shovels" type thing and in this case the analogy holds up very well.

The SC2 players are digging for gold and only a few of them make a big strike and the casters and distributors are the ones making all the cash selling shovels.

<comment><USER6> yeah but how much? has a market actually taken form or are those casters who are making money nothing more then novelty?

<comment><USER7> The top caster (H to the husky, husky) has a lambo and wasn't rich prior to casting esports.

<comment><USER8> What method are you using to determine he is the 'top' caster?

Of all popular casters out there, he is the least professional and least insightful.

<comment><USER9> # of views?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Actually, I think it's a bit strange that this isn't the case with conventional sports. When it comes right down to it, what makes sports interesting is less the absolute skill of the competitors and rather the relative skill. So a high school match is no less interesting than a professional match.

There's obviously a part of everyone that believes skill should be rewarded, but really what sports spectators are looking for is entertainment value - <USER2> completely unskilled players are just as capable of creating something entertaining to watch as skilled players.

Distributors on the other hand are judged precisely by how entertaining the product they deliver is, so their skill and effort should have a much more obvious correlation to their earnings. It therefore makes sense that it's more profitable than playing, since only specific people are any good at turning games into an entertaining mass-market product.

<comment><USER11> There's actually been academic research papers written about spectating Starcraft: <http://jeffhuang.com/Final_StarcraftSpectator_CHI11.pdf>

There's a number of types of people who watch Starcraft, and a number of things Starcraft does really well to get a large audience of viewers (hiding/showing certain game information).

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I predict e-sports to develop almost identical to american sports. Thus, before any real money can be made (for players and distributors/producers) elements of american sports need to be echoed: big money backers (owners), betting, and a more structured and and centralized league system.

The problem is e-sports is still so immature for the above three things, both technically (cheating is a major issue) and in popularity (e-sports has yet to prove exiting to the uninformed spectator).

<comment><USER12> I wasn't aware that cheating is such a huge deal in pro gaming. Source?

Also, it occurs to me that cheating has been a big deal in regular sports, too...! ;-) In fact, I would say the same about interest levels. I found football excruciating until I learned the rules.

<comment><USER6> In pro gaming not so much. What I mean here is "casual" pro gaming. This is a big issue in FPS games. Smaller player driven leagues have a hard time weeding out cheaters in games like counterstrike and other fps's. This leads into the other point as well. Football is just jammed down peoples throats so much that even watching TV/movies you probably got a decent understanding of it. Without casual pro gaming it is hard to gain interest in e-sports at a high level.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> HD's starcraft videos are really enjoyable. His commentary seems pretty professional (don't watch sports so have no basis for comparison) and reveals elements of play I was totally unaware of before.

<http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft>

</comment><comment><USER14> The original Starcraft (Broodwar) is much more enjoyable to watch, though SC2 may be more interesting to play.

<comment><USER12> With both games, I am a novice at best; but I'd be interested to hear why you find SC:BW more interesting to spectate.

<comment><USER15> I'm not the parent, but lots of people complain that the SC2 maps are too small. You can quickly get to your opponents base on small maps which making early agression powerful, resulting in a lot of short games. If you've watched the last two GSLs, you probably noticed a lot of < 10 minute games (e.g lots of 2 rax all-in/pressure builds). By contrast, SC:BW games tend to be a lot longer and more exciting where you get to see many if not all expansions on the map taken, more strategy when it comes to unit composition besides just "well you weren't ready for my early game push so I just won easily", map control becomes essential, harassment, etc.

<comment><USER16> Blizzard have rolled out a map pool with much bigger (tournament/ladder) maps, so there's definitely something for everyone.

<comment><USER15> What maps are you referring to? They've tweaked the map pool a little bit (Shakura's Plateau is not bad) but I still see the same complaints people have been making. The GSL is thinking of adding new custom maps for this reason (<http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Maps#Possible_New_Maps>).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I'd imagine the top players in Korea would get marketing and endorsement deals?

</comment><comment><USER18> Blizzard makes the most money as the copyright holder. They can shut down any of the casters streams whenever they so desire.

<comment><USER5> Really? I would have thought it is fair use, but I guess no Machinima producers have true tested the law in this regard? Certainly Blizzard attempts to control the use through the TOU and restrict derivative content to non- commercial use only.

<comment><USER12> But it's not Machinima... it's just a broadcast of their product being used exactly as it is intended. Wouldn't that be like a baseball bat manufacturer telling someone to take videos of their Little League game off of YouTube?

<comment><USER19> Well, they are adding commentary(audio) to video from in-game. To me that seems like machinima.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> God Startupcraft looks soo awesome, almost considering flying to USA to attend :P

</comment><comment><USER21> It's not like being the players and participating in tournaments is such a hard gig. They are often sponsored by various technology or clothing companies and get to do what they really enjoy. The casters also get to do what they enjoy but they serve a much larger audience of people that fall between casual and professional player so that's one of the reasons they make more money.</comment>


Startup challenge: build an email list of 500 prospects from nothing in 60 days - <AUTHOR> http://danielstudds.com/startup-challenge-build-an-email-list-of-500-prospects-from-nothing-in-60-days/

<comment><USER2> Love this approach - reminds me of how buffer did it - [http://blog.bufferapp.com/idea-to-paying-customers- in-7-week...](http://blog.bufferapp.com/idea-to-paying-customers-in-7-weeks- how-we-did-it)

Are you planning to do any spend as I didn't see any pixel's on the page as you should be cookie pooling users just in case you do want to retarget them :0

<comment><AUTHOR> ugh, yeah, newb mistake: forgot any sort of tracking. Probably will do some spend.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Can I become a biz/customer development guy after college? - <AUTHOR>

I'm a junior in college and my major is Business Administration. My life goal is to become a successful entrepreneur. I was initially going to go down the real estate investment route after college like some of my mentors have, but after reading Steve Blank and taking part in Start-Up Weekend I love the start-up scene.
This is my issue. At my college everyone is either a Finance or Marketing concentration with plans to work for Corporate America. I met with my adviser and told him I don't want to declare a concentration since entrepreneurship is not an option and he told me my plan isn't viable.
I'll be taking part in an incubator this summer at a neighboring college and I acknowledge I will probably not become financially independent from the company that I create through it (although I'll try!). But is it unrealistic for a non-tech guy to plan on moving to Boston or Silicon Valley after college and find a business development job? Why is this not an acceptable path to some people? I feel like working for successful entrepreneurs is probably the best learning environment for becoming one, even if it meant less pay than my colleagues who are going to try to work for Goldman Sachs. <comment><USER2> Hi djsamson, I'll pass along the same advice verbatim that I received over 20 years ago, from the dean of my school's MBA program ( I was in his undergrad entrepreneurship class ), when I asked about MBA as path to entrepreneurship.

His advice was to instead spend time working for the smallest possible companies after college for as long as I could stand it, and get a breadth of exposure about running and growing a business. His take was that an MBA was training ground for large corporate positions where they wanted highly qualified candidates. And that even w/o getting an MBA, working for large companies after ungrad would put you on a track for specialization where you wouldn't be in a position to see the big picture, or able to make big decisions/mistakes for a long time.

I took his advice, got a lot of great experience at a few very small companies where the exposure and mentorship was invaluable (and the breadth of forgetful and thankless tasks was endless). And that experience came at a severe earnings discount for 5-10 years compared to my contemporaries who went straight to bigCo and big paychecks. But once I learned enough to take leadership roles at several subsequent companies, the tables changed dramatically on the earnings.

My advice beyond that to you as a non-technical entrepreneur just starting is perhaps consider _not_ working for a pure startup where it will be mostly engineers fighting to find product/market fit, but instead look at small/growing firms that need sales/bus dev/marketing help, and start there, since you'll have an opportunity to be exposed to the full picture of a going concern. Learn everything you can to excel at your craft, spend extra time learning as much tech as you can, then apply all that to a raw startup later potentially with folks you meet along the way.

Best of luck!

</comment><comment><USER3> The degree programs for business at most universities are just corporate prep schools. They're not educating you to be an entrepreneur. You'd be much better off in a science or engineering program where people, at least a few of them, are actively trying to invent the products of the future and will build a business to make it happen.

</comment><comment><USER4> Why not at least take a stab at learning some tech skills? I'm not sure the world needs more non-technical managers of tech companies but even if you just get a solid grounding in the basics this could spur your interest and make you more valuable overall to a startup company</comment>


Hermes – A small JavaScript engine optimized for running React Native on Android - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/facebook/hermes <comment><USER2> I understand and accept the reality of path dependence.

At the same time, when I see projects like his, V8, HHVM, etc. I can't help but wonder where we could be if all of that engineering effort had gone into more carefully-designed languages.

<comment><USER3> Every language involves tradeoffs. The initial JS tradeoffs were ok for the target audience and environments. A "carefully-designed language" in 2019 might hold up for 2019 use cases but we don't know whether the tradeoffs will make sense in 2029

<comment><USER2> This is generally true. Most languages were carefully designed and if they are disliked now, it's mainly because we've forgotten their original constraints in which the language's design made sense. (For example, header files in C are a reasonable approach when your compiler can't fit an entire source file in memory.)

But JS and PHP aren't that. They both have a lot of good ideas in them but they are also both hampered by lots of initial mistakes in their design. JS because it was designed so quickly, PHP because it was cobbled together ad-hoc by someone who wasn't focused on the design of the language.

Semicolon insertion in JS doesn't represent a smart trade-off from the past, it was just a bad design whose author didn't have time to fix it before it hit the marketplace [0]. Likewise, PHP's wildly inconsistent core library names aren't a sign of some thoughtful hidden order. They're because Rasmus lazily used strlen() as the hash function for strings and wanted them to go into different buckets [0].

[0]: [https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/the-infernal- semicolon/](https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/the-infernal-semicolon/)

[1]: [https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/70691](https://news- web.php.net/php.internals/70691)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> One of the game-breaking things about the older JavaScriptCore engine on Android was that when I debug on Chrome, it has a totally different engine (V8) so, there were code that ran correctly when debugging but crashed on- device.

Will Hermes be able to solve this debugging issue?

<comment><USER5> Hermes is using the same debugging protocol as Node. So yes, debugging in Chrome actually runs Hermes code on the device.

<comment><USER5> Correction: this is not documented yet, but it should already work. Documentation is coming soon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There's a gazillion engineering hours between JavaScriptCore and V8. It seems crazy to write a JS engine from scratch as opposed to forking JSC or V8.

(For the unawares, RN necessarily uses the system JSC on iOS per Apple requirements, but for Android RN bundles JSC into the APK.)

I don't understand how Hermes will differ from JSC/V8 in terms of functionality and performance. What functionality can be left out of Hermes as compared to JSC/V8 in order to shrink its sie?

What sorts of performance improvements will Hermes have that wouldn't similarly benefit JSC/V8, and why wouldn't Apple/Google include those in their own engines?

<comment><USER7> The same real world react app went from 40MB to 20MB.

They don't ship minified javascript to final app, but bytecode, which they say is 1/3 smaller (both minified). They have moved the parse and compile stages to ahead of time, making the VM smaller, and giving the bytecode benefit. The bytecode benefit also means a quicker time to live/first reponse from 4s to 2s in their example.

Link to the talk, from FB employee announcement made at React Conference today, 15 minutes length. Linked 2 mins in, because the audio is poor to start.

[https://youtu.be/zEjqDWqeDdg?t=130](https://youtu.be/zEjqDWqeDdg?t=130)

<comment><USER6> Ah, gotcha. It's moving the parse/compile AOT that I missed. Naively, I'm still surprised they didn't start with JSC/V8 but maybe those engines carry a lot more in them than is needed. Thank you for the link.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm moderately curious about why the language of choice was C++ rather than Rust. It seems like all the Ocaml people at Facebook would prefer a more ML- like language.

</comment><comment><USER9> Here is the full post on Facebook's Engineering blog: [https://code.fb.com/android/hermes/](https://code.fb.com/android/hermes/)

</comment><comment><USER10> (I knew nothing about this until 30 minutes ago, but I just did some quick research)

 _A Quick zero-to-20mph Guide_

</comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>====

How it works

\</comment><comment></comment><comment>

1\. Results in less to load into memory WHY? It has no Just-in-time (JIT) compilation, instead compiles to bytecode ahead-of-time (AOC). By comparison most (all?) modern browsers have a tricky blend of both.

2\. Has no effect on application CPU performance

3\. Chrome debugger will connect DIRECTLY to the Hermes engine within the app (simulator or device). By comparison, Chrome debugger uses its own V8 engine to execute code, instead of the JsCoreEngine (?) that React-native uses by default

Results

\</comment><comment>---

Mattermost app

1\. Time from load until first user interaction: 4.3s -> 2.3s

2\. APK size: 41mb -> 22mb

3\. Memory: 185Mb -> 136mb

<comment><USER11> From a similar high elevation perch: [https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/2746...](https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/274640/why- is-android-runtimes-aot-compilation-more-performant-than-dalviks-jit)

Tl;dr AoT can be more resource intensive as a one time cost while JIT uses and limits runtime resources

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Worth noting that JSC on iOS for use in app-backend/business-logic code runs in interpreted mode [1].

Are Android versions of RN apps faster because Android's native V8 allows JIT, and Hermes also employs JIT?

[1]: [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45422462/what-does- jit-i...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45422462/what-does-jit-is- disabled-mean-in-apples-javascriptcore-jsc-documentation)

<comment><USER13> RN on Android also uses JSC, so no JIT. And, and per the video ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEjqDWqeDdg&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEjqDWqeDdg&feature=youtu.be&t=130)) there is no JIT on Hermes either.

<comment><USER14> JSC on Android can use JIT, but some choose to disable it because it uses more memory than it's worth.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> They harp a lot on how fast it starts up - which sounds great - but I would like to have some solid numbers on what that startup time actually is on actual devices! I can't seem to find anything perusing around the GH page or the site

<comment><USER16> We have done some internal tests of Hermes on a RN experience within Microsoft Office on Android.

Currently we use V8 with bytecode caching on Android, since it provided better startup performance than the JSC engine that normally ships within RN. So the baseline is likely already faster than stock RN.

V8 runtime Memory Impact: 30MB Hermes runtime memory impact: 21.5MB

V8 time to interaction: 1.4s Hermes time to interaction: 1.1s

We have done similar experiments on a full react-native-windows application, replacing the Chakra JS engine (also already with bytecode so faster than stock RN) with Hermes and had app boot time on a low end device go from 3.8s to 3.1s.

<comment><USER17> It's a pity the Proxy is not supported mobx is really much nicer approach to state management and usually, apps using mobx are much faster - simply because implementing shouldComponentUpdate properly is hard

<comment><USER18> You could still use MobX 4 though. It's equally well maintained.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Will OTA updates with tools like Codepush still be possible with hermes? I'm assuming these tools push the minified js instead of compiled bytecode.

</comment><comment> c-smile Not clear what version of JS spec it supports.

And what are these "optimizations for running React Native on Android". Just reducing startup/boot time or what?

<comment><USER20> The VM doesn't run JS directly, just bytecode so the version of the spec supported doesn't matter much. JS can be run through babel before going through the Hermes compiler.

<comment><USER21> wonderful</comment></comment></comment>


Ask me: A webdeveloper from Belgium - <AUTHOR>

I've been watching HN for quite some time now and I see more and more 'coffee shops say no to laptop users' and it strikes me that here, in Belgium, we have no such thing. Or not that I know of anyway. That inspired me to create this. Are there any questions you, HN readers, would like to ask about life in Europe/Belgium? Of course any question is welcome and I'll do my best to give a unbiased opinion, but don't feel offended if I feel a question is inappropriate. This is just a wild idea, if this is not appropriate for HN for some reason, feel free to tell me why. <comment><USER2> When you say "we have no such thing", I want to assume you mean "here's your hat, what's your hurry" service ;-) (meaning, proscribing lingering), as opposed to no wifi in cafes. Is that what you mean?

Although politics have been overplaying here on HN, lately, I am curious whatever became of the concern that was reported a year or two (or three?) ago that Belgium was "falling apart".

With regard to a question perhaps of more interest to the HN crowd, I'm curious what the startup and small (tech) business culture is like in your country. I have a friend who now lives on the outskirts of Ghent, and a time or two I've wondered what I would find if things ever went beyond friends and I considered moving over there. I realize that's a pretty broad question, but my own thoughts have not been too specific.

If this isn't the best fare for HN, I'm happy to move it to email.

<comment><AUTHOR> First of all, we have coffee places, just like in the US. But as far as I know, we tend not to bring our laptop along. I certainly never did it and I never saw it either. I must admit I'd rather read a book then take my laptop along...

Now, about the politics, yes it's true there where a lot of political problems concerning the separation of Belgium into 2 separate countries. Today (almost) nothing has changed. The issues the news reported about back then are still not 'solved'. It's just old news for the media and the people got tired of it so nothing happens anymore. But to give my personal opinion, there never was any problem. To me all the fuss was just to get some media attention for the elections back then and things got a bit out of control. The big problem should be between flanders and walloon, the 2 big parts of the country. But many of my colleagues are walloon and I have absolutely no problem with them at all, why should I? So my opinion about the whole issue is: it was just some publicity stunt. Sure we hear all the time there are 'issues' and flanders is giving (some politicians even call it wasting) a large sum of money to the walloon but I see it in a bigger picture. And as far as I know, that's the main issue about politics.

The last answer, the startup culture. To be honest, as I see it, there are 2 big cities with startups at the moment in flanders: Antwerp and Ghent. You also have Brussels but it's really expensive to live there, if you want to live in a 'better part' of the city. Starting up is not so hard, just get a BTW number (it's a special tax number), fill in some papers and you are working for yourself. The thing is, taxes are rather high so you tend to have less money left. Of course you have an upside too, if you should fail, you can apply for unemployment benefits and even take courses for free (they even pay you to do it in some instances). The typical startup here is different in the sense that here you don't make a web application that attracts a lot of people/investors, you make applications for clients. A group of people I worked with recently started their own little company ( <http://1md.be/> ) and as you can see they follow that principle. I guess Belgium is just too small to do it the US way, it's even worse if you know websites from flanders who are immensely popular are not popular at all in walloon and the other way around. So in conclusion, I don't think we have the same startup environment as 'you guys'. If you should move only for that, I think you're in for a bit of a disappointment. Of course that's from my point of view!

Hope this answers your questions, if not let me know!</comment></comment>