Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won't Tolerate 'Callous' Management Practices - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/technology/amazon-bezos-workplace-management-practices.html <comment><USER2> > But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate > to HR. You can also email me directly at email@example.com. Even if it's rare > or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero.

I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it says in the name.

There have been many cases I've heard (personally and from HN comments) where someone would go to HR, complain about harassment by their manager, get assurance of confidentiality, and the next thing you know the manager is told right away. Or the person who complained gets punished instead.

Now you can try to go public and force its hand to basically realign HR's interest (protect the company) with yours (you get heard and the problem is fixed). But that won't be forgotten in the long term.

<comment><USER3> There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career.

Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to try to climb up the ladder.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Confidential-Secrets- Company...](http://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Confidential-Secrets-Company- Know/dp/0312337361)

<comment><USER4> _They exist to protect the company, not you._

Sure, but that doesn't mean that they can't be on your side. If you report that your boss is doing something which is against company policy and hurts the company, it's quite possible for HR to be simultaneously on your side and on the company's side.

<comment><USER5> Yes - but be careful about the equation, it's something like this:

(Your value + cost of incident - squeaky wheel cost) vs (manager's value)

The incident has to be fairly egregious to tip the scales in your favor, and the squeaky wheel cost can follow you.

<comment><USER2> That is why a last alternative is to suggest you might go public, it forces their hand because now "cost of incident" can be rather high. As it is PR damage all across the board for the company. Of course, it might fix things in the short term but it won't be forgotten in the long term.

<comment><USER6> I don't think that an unknown Amazon employee going public could add much to the damage that the current media coverage has already inflicted. HR would probably just shrug it off. Also, taking a dispute with your employer public might cause other companies to think twice about hiring you in the future (your publicity will show up if they Google you). If you're down to your last alternative, it's probably time to find a new job.

<comment><USER2> It is hard to say. HN makes the development world pretty small. It is like a smaller provincial town where everyone kind of can find out stuff even if they don't know you personally. Damaging the image of a tech company on HN could be serious, it could impact ability to hire in the future.

But you are right, it is the nuclear option. After that even if problem is solved immediately, a stab in the back in the future is expected.

As for future employability, you are right as well. However, I can see a small start-up actually seeking out self-reliant people who have a sense of justice doing what is right. So the quality could also be appealing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it.

These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your vacation, go find another job that won't make you work through your vacation. This isn't North Korea, Bezos isn't going to throw you in a reeducation camp.

I will keep ordering from Amazon because they provide the best service. Simple as that.

<comment><USER8> I'm not advocating or rejecting the Amazon boycott, simply here to challenge the way you think: while everything you said is logical you can't simply treat people like trash, it doesn't matter if they are white collar, gold collar or can't-afford-a-collar.

A situation that shares many similarities is: "it is that woman's fault that she does not leave her abusive husband." That is laying blame on the person who was abused (not matter their background) instead of the person dealing out the injustice.

Imagine that Bezos had not disowned this behavior: more and more would follow suit and eventually you'd be hard-pressed to find a place where this isn't the norm. For example: stack ranking had to start _somewhere._ Now you'll find it at many places and it's no longer as simple as "just go work somewhere else." If you've acquired a lifestyle where you depend on a corporate job with a cushy salary, what are you going to do?

Don't forget that people can (and do) undervalue themselves. Maybe they don't believe that they could find another job: possibly because their manager has completely destroyed their self-worth.

Finally, it's just fucking stupid. It's actually counter-productive. It's been shown over and over again (one example[1]) that the way you get better results out of humans is to treat them humanely and, _unbelievably_ , make them _want_ to work for you instead of work for you out of fear. Practices like this, stack ranking, etc. all originate out of the industrial age when machines were the primary concern - you can't manage humans like machines: they will revolt (consciously or subconsciously).

[1]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc)

<comment><USER9> Even if you haven't acquired a lifestyle. It's not like things get better when management adopts some new terrible practice for non-salaried employees. By and large they live day to day stack-ranking all sorts of far more abusive BS.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Jeff Bezos encourages employees a "careful read" of the NYT article and the read of "a very different take by a current Amazonian" on LinkedIn.

What I see is a company with a big PR department who hasn't succeeded to spin positive stories about their HR in newspapers. We'll see in the next months whether they prop up their game.

Besides, if you face a difficulty with your work environment, don't talk to HR™. They are paid to exclude any PR hazard from the company.

NB: Moderator/dang, please merge with [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10072753](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10072753)

</comment><comment><USER11> Sounds like Bezos is just doing damage control. The original article is somewhat interesting but hardly novel. I've never talked to a single person who worked at Amazon who had anything positive to say. You have recruiters recruiting for Amazon who are basically saying, "Do not work there." They are being paid on commission to get you to work there and they're telling you what a horrible place to work it is, killing any chance of moving forward. I find that quite telling of what kind of place Amazon is.

<comment><USER12> And yet Amazon (3.4) rates comparable on Glassdoor to many other important technology companies, including: Oracle (3.3), Yahoo (3.5), HP (3.3), IBM (3.1), eBay (3.5), Tesla (3.4), Dell (3.4), Cisco (3.7).

That's with 5,800+ reviews. Something doesn't add up.

<comment><USER13> How reliable is glassdoor as a metric? Personally, I would never, ever post anything negative there due to the fear of retaliation. I suspect truly bad companies never get their comeuppance because at the end of the day, you need some kind of reference and positive job history from your previous employer. It may not be that hard to trace a review to a specific employee due to timing, title, salary, etc information.

<comment><USER14> According to the dozen seasoned job-hunters and recruiters that I know, Glassdoor is absolutely rotten in my industry (biotech). The selection bias is heavy-handed at best. Even Amazon's 5,000+ reviews represent a very small fraction of it's employees globally. These are futher selected as the kind who would review a job online pseudoanomyously.

Furthermore, one doesn't know the age of a review -- is this a current employee, a previous one who left last week or a review of a the job from 10 years ago? It's entirely possible that every problem addressed in a negative review has been since addressed. You just don't know.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> For years I've had an academic interest in alternative religions. (As an atheist, I find them endlessly fascinating, as it lets you see more of how the dominant religions came to be.) One of those most interesting things I've come across related to that was the ABCDEF:

[http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html](http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html)

It was put together decades ago by a pagan who wanted to help people see the difference between people who were up to something new and actually dangerous cults.

The NYT article made me haul it out again and do some scoring, and then run through and score a number of the tech companies I'm familiar with. It was a very interesting exercise.

<comment><USER16> When I worked at Amazon I felt it was very cultish. "Today is day one!" and the BS like door desks (which cost more than actual desks but give the "we're a startup!" mentality boost.)

Looking on your list a surprising number of factors are much higher for amazon than for other, better jobs I've seen.

It is very much a cult. Microsoft had a bit of cultism in the 1990s (Billg was infallible, etc.) and another company I've worked for since tried to be a cult...

</comment></comment><comment> rm_-rf_slash This kind of thing reminded me of when Eric Schmidt justified Google's reputationally low pay by saying "people don't work at Google for the money, they do it to change the world!"

Of course, Google's stock made him a billionaire.

To me this problem seems to root itself in the absurdity of equity percentages. How is it one who comes to the company a year after founding can work the same 10-12 hour days as a founder and yet see maybe 1% in options they have to pay for while founders expect 15% and up for being there at the beginning? Seems all right when the company is young and the risk is high, but what ends up happening is that the fresh blood 10,20 years on has to fight for scraps while the now-wealthy founders can enjoy their work knowing they could quit tomorrow and never have to lift a finger again.

White collar Walmart could pay its employees squarely to compensate for their mental health and social lives, but they act almost allergic to profits as long as they can continue stock offerings to keep prices at a minimum.

</comment><comment><USER17> And like clockwork, there is the PR reaction. Whatever you do, don't write to HR or Jeff - that is amateur hour stuff to smoke out the problem people.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm in the process of joining Amazon as a software engineer manager. I don't know how to respond to this article and if to continue the process with them.

<comment><USER19> I have decided to stop the interview process with Amazon as a result of this article. Life is too short to have to deal with working in such a poisonous culture as described. I've had a few people mention how much Amazon sucks, at least in the Bay Area, but I thought maybe it was just a coincidence, but based on the article, it seems like it's their culture.

<comment><USER20> Both interviews I did with Amazon were pretty poor. I am a little upset by their advocacy and use of visa workers, as though there are no American engineers capable of doing the work. Facebook and other tech giants are guilty of this too.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> All of this discussion brings me to the Stanford Prison Experiment

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)

In such hierarchical systems, the issue goes beyond abuse itself, bringing deinvidualization and loss of personal identity.

That partially explains why some workers won't leave the company even for a similar/higher salary.

<comment><USER22> My thoughts exactly: which one is true? A) Amazon is a kind of narcissistic codependency/Stockholm syndrome environment; B) the "horror" stories are exaggerated; C) the job is so cool that people are willing to take some abuse; D) there is other reason as to why Amazon succeeds.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> [https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611](https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611)

"Ha, ha! You 150-odd ex-Amazon folks here will of course realize immediately that #7 was a little joke I threw in, because Bezos most definitely does not give a shit about your day."

"We're talking about a guy who in all seriousness has said on many public occasions that people should be paying him to work at Amazon. He hands out little yellow stickies with his name on them, reminding people "who runs the company" when they disagree with him. The guy is a regular... well, Steve Jobs, I guess. Except without the fashion or design sense. Bezos is super smart; don't get me wrong. He just makes ordinary control freaks look like stoned hippies."

"At this point they don't even do it out of fear of being fired. I mean, they're still afraid of that; it's pretty much part of daily life there, working for the Dread Pirate Bezos and all."

</comment><comment><USER24> As an exAmazonian I think Amazon treated me decently. I ultimately left for some place that treat me even better (with free food and better pay); but I did not believe that I am entitled to those perks. Judging by life of the few Amazonians I know personally, most of them agree with me. I only know one person who complained heavily about Amazon and it is more about his team and having a crappy boss than about the company.

<comment><USER25>
      but I did not believe that I am entitled to those perks

This is the hook as people usually underestimate themselves and this comes into play during salary negotiations too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> As if Jeff is reading email@example.com - would be the first enterprise CEO I know who reads his mail instead of a web of (personal) assistants.

<comment><USER27> From what I can gather, he reads anything sent from another internal (@amazon.com) address personally. Stuff from outside probably goes to assistants.

<comment><USER26> Cool, thx.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> I think the point is being missed. As long as Amazon has "interesting" problems to solve they will get good people (look at what PhD candidates will suffer). If they don't then only those who can't leave will be left behind. I know this is cynical but it is also why I love this field so much. I look for interesting problems to solve...not huge benefits. Money just doesn't get me up in the morning. Will I die poor...maybe...its not a big concern because I love what I do.

Keeping it "interesting" is the problem that needs to be solved at Amazon. So far they have been very successful at that.

<comment><USER29> The problem with this is, with some marginal effort you could get vastly more money and interesting problems. Accepting a low salary out of some misguided notion that money isn't important to you is silly. Money gives you options you would not otherwise have - a great salary combined with thrift can facilitate an unusual amount of career flexibility. At the very least, you can donate the money you don't need to GiveWell and save a few lives.

<comment><USER28> It has been my experience that certain problem sets are only addressed by a couple of companies at a time. Sometimes you have to see beyond the culture and pick the problem.

It has also been my experience that a low salary is indicative of a very boring company and set of problems. A very high salary is also indicative of a very boring company and a set of problems that may stem from culture...i.e. poor testing, etc.

...somewhere in the mid to upper end of salary lies very interesting problems. I just don't make my decision based solely on salary.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> I'm always blown away when I read things like this:

"Even many Amazonians who have worked on Wall Street and at start-ups say the workloads at the new South Lake Union campus can be extreme: marathon conference calls on Easter Sunday and Thanksgiving, criticism from bosses for spotty Internet access on vacation, and hours spent working at home most nights or weekends."

Is this something people are proud of? You're working for a shipping company, how do you get that brainwashed that you sign your life away like that? I understand as you move up the ranks in seniority more is expected of you, but I'm always surprised by the lack of self respect and boundaries people have for themselves in professional environments.

</comment><comment><USER31> Most folks know that Amazon warehouses are abusive. Why did it take Mr. Bezos so long to figure this out?

He deserves the benefit of the doubt, but its hard to believe he didn't already know.

</comment><comment><USER32> To the people that say an employee should just quit- it isn't that easy. 1\. While it may be good for your resume to show you got selected by AMZN, the reverse is it hurts your resume to show you only lasted a few months which may imply it was a hiring mistake and you couldn't cut it. 2\. If you took a big relocation package or sign-on bonus, you may feel inclined to stick it out even if it not healthy to not have to pay back and to deflect #1.

</comment><comment><USER33> I'm actually pleased with Mr. Bezos' response. He doesn't deny any of the stories in the article, and he doesn't try to explain any of them away. His attitude strikes me as one of a problem-solver and one who cares about his company's reputation. I can't recall the last time I heard the CEO of a large company say publicly, "if you've been treated this way, reach out to me personally."

<comment><USER34> His personal email address is 100% guaranteed staffed by a team of secretaries. It might've been respectable if it had been an email specifically for such complaints and no other user, and instructions on how to send things to it anonymously. But as things stand it's just an attempt to get people like you, who haven't been burned badly enough yet, to think he's actually being "nice" there.

<comment><USER35> He probably really sees all emails sent to him internally from an amazon email address.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> ...except for Jeff's own habits. Now I don't actually have a bad view of Amazon on the whole, but Bezos and his personality is well known for many years as demanding to the point of monomaniacal, and often cowing of others. That isn't just taking a pot shot, that's a repeated observation from many people over many years. It's like saying Larry Ellison likes boats or Scott McNealy hates dentists.

</comment><comment><USER37> The second last paragraph there, is really strange! It almost sounds like as if, he'd rather people leave if they don't like it.

</comment><comment><USER38> Bezos needs to buy some Robert Anton Wilson from himself.

Celine's Second Law: Accurate communication is possible only in a non- punishing situation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine%27s_laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine%27s_laws)

</comment><comment><USER39> This just reaffirms my prognostication that Bezos and Clarkson will end in fisticuffs.

</comment><comment><USER40> A particularly fitting past discussion in HN about among other things Amazon:[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4195136](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4195136)

</comment><comment><USER41> Jeff needs to read the cluetrain manifesto (again), [http://cluetrain.com/index.html](http://cluetrain.com/index.html)

</comment><comment><USER16> Escalate to HR? That's exactly what I did.

Jeff is spinning his typical BS. My boss was abusive, drove off %70 of the team and was dealing drugs to other employees in the PacMed garage. He lied to me many times, and I started documenting it.

I went to HR about it, trying to get support so I could transfer out to a team at AWS, where I knew the manager and he had offered me a job.

The HR person assured me that everything that I told her would be kept confidential. She insisted I tell her what was going on with my boss, and thus why I wanted to leave. I did tell her, and she then turned around and told my boss all of it. (I didn't tell her he was dealing drugs, I actually felt physically vulnerable to him because he had a violent temper-- his training was to be a prison guard and that's what he wanted to be before somehow he was hired at Amazon to manage programmers despite having difficulty even with simple things like spreadsheets and Excel.)

The HR at Amazon is an organization that is a big part of the problem. After she told my boss they started coming up with sudden complaint about my performance and scheduled a meeting with the HR person.. who then talked bout the things I had told her in confidence, in front of my boss (though I knew he already knew) as if there had never been any reason for me to expect confidence.

Also, I worked with Jeff Bezos on enough occasions that he knew who I was, and would say hello by name in the hallway. The idea that i could have gone to him directly with a complaint about my boss is asinine in the extreme. He would have passed it on to HR and it would have been the same thing.

He might have cared about the drug dealing thing ,but only because it put the company at risk.

The lack of empathy, and the rest of the employee hostile corporate culture ORIGINATES with Jeff Bezos. HE is the source and the cause and to him -- and this is a libertarian speaking-- everyone's existence is the sum total of the money they make him.

In fact, I think Jeff Bezos is a pathological liar and a psychopath. He's very charming, heartless and able to fake warmth. Clearly he has had PR training too. But he's the evil at the core of Amazon.

I've had extensive dealings with Microsoft and Apple and other big companies-- none were any where close to as toxic and heartless as Amazon. Jeff really sees people as resources to be exploited and could not care less about employee development, or retention.

In fact, the back stabbing, competitive nature that makes it such a toxic environment is designed in some sort of "survival of the fittest" delusion-- the product is regularly sacrificed (and amazon.com is pretty much a joke how broken it is-- still is, in fact) as a result.

You win at Amazon by playing politics, not by being good at your job.

PS-- why was I stupid enough to go to HR? I've worked mostly for startups, and it was the job previous to this that was my first real experience with an HR "department" which was one person, who was damn good, and exceptional at mediation and conflict resolution, full of integrity and trustworthy. I didn't have experience at large companies to know that HR was mostly filled with drama addicted flunkies.

<comment><USER42>
        the PacMed garage.

I helped turn the lights out in that building over five years ago. I am no Amazon apologist, but I do think it is worth mentioning your experience is also not recent.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> _I strongly believe that anyone working in a company that really is like the one described in the NYT would be crazy to stay. I know I would leave such a company._

The cynic in me would interpret this as a tacit invitation by the Bezo-man himself to unhappy employees to beat it and don't let the door hit them on their rears on their way out if they don't like working here but I could be wrong but with the likes of Bezos and Ellison, you shouldn't set the bar really high when it comes to human empathy.

</comment><comment><USER44> Jeff Bezos is definitely the new Steve Jobs.

<comment><USER16> Jobs was a good guy who, under it all, had engineering skill and design chops. He was compassionate and intelligent. Jobs built a great company that makes real profits by selling real products.

Bezos is a psychopath, a hack who only cares about manipulating the situation in his favor. He has built a shell of a retailer whos only profitable product is its own stock.

<comment><USER45> Jobs was a good guy. Wasn't he known for being outright cruel to employees? Didn't he foster a culture of infighting and ridiculous hours? Wasn't he a deadbeat dad for a couple decades?

Did he have engineering skill? He had vision and a level of genius, but I'm not sure it applies to Engineering skill. Odd that you give that to him but not to Bezos.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> "BREAKING: Hugely successful big co has ex employees not fully satisfied, willing to criticize it. It also has current employees who appreciate it, willing to defend it. Will keep you posted."

<comment><USER47> ....and thus it all cancels out? Show your work.

<comment><USER46> It's just all so anecdotal. Finding five frustrated employees of a company with things would not be hard to do, and the response pointed out how many of the major complaints were severely taken out of context. It just reeks if someone trying to make a story when there is none.

<comment><USER48> This is how most "journalism" works these days. Write your report as if the sky is falling, something extremely negative and spin it as if it's a major global trend. Then read the article and it's just some quotes from maybe three people, with very little data to back up the claim that it's a major trend. I see this type of work _constantly._ Especially articles about America or about "shortages." People get hyped up by a negative headline but don't think critically about the content.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> First world problems like no other...

We're talking about highly paid professionals working at a rather cushy job all things considered. It's like listening to rich kids complain about having blue M&M's touching the red M&M's in their bowl of candy.

Nothing in this whole bit of drama is shocking other then I'm not quite sure why Amazon is being singled out. All of the complaints made are systematic problems in any large corporation. The workplace isn't there to hold your hand and to be your own personal playground. In Tech, you have to earn your place every day and Amazon seems to make it clear that is the case (leadership principals, talk of hard challenges, etc). I would expect to be "managed out" if I showed up every day expecting to coast through with the bare minimum - who would want to work at a company where that is acceptable?

Boycotting the company as a customer is also pretty funny to me. The chief competition is Walmart - are the activists going to order from them instead? How is that any better ethically?

<comment><USER40> A poisonous workplace with lots of employees will create huge negative externalities to the surrounding society.

1\. People look up to their successfull peers. Examples succesfull companies create propagate throughout the management layers in the industry.

2\. If Amazon sets a 'lets suck them dry' example then this will lower the barrier for other companies to follow suit, or enforce their existing pathologies

3\. Bad work/life balance creates depressed people and is not so good for long term productivity. It might create short term kicks for adrenaline junkies and workaholics. Such practices have no rational defence, except that they appeal to certain macho people. From the POV of the company it might not be a problem since they can always hire more people to suck dry but the broken people who leave have suffered personal tragedies with various side effects.

4\. What is this 'Tech' where 'one needs to earn their place every day'? It certainly does not sound like professional software engineering for sane and capable people who can choose where to work.

<comment><USER49> The funny part, I wholly agree with you. But none of this applies to Amazon, at least at the level that I work at.

I work in a remote office in a country with sane labour laws (not the US). My work/life balance is never under threat. In fact it's far better with Amazon then it was with the start-up I used to work for, where 60+ was expected all with a mantra of "we're a startup, therefore we can't pay you but we're CHANGING THE WORLD!". At Amazon, there is zero pressure for employees to work more then 40 hours unless something is truly going wrong with our areas of responsibilities, and then everyone on the team is expected to pitch in to get things back to normal. Show me a functional workplace where this isn't the norm.

The day to day for a lower level engineer is quite relaxed at Amazon. The only pressure I feel comes from my own drive to succeed, not from upper management.

But please, disregard everything I can tell you from first hand experience because it doesn't fit your predetermined bias about the company.</comment></comment></comment>


Firefox OS Pivot to Connected Devices - <AUTHOR> https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2015/12/09/firefox-os-pivot-to-connected-devices/ <comment><USER2> so what's happening with ubuntu phone nowadays?</comment>


Show HN: Grooovy (rediscovering iphone meetups) - <AUTHOR> http://www.grooovy.me/index.php

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi All, we've just launched our iphone App! We're feeling good about this app from the responses that we've gotten from our beta testers so we hope everyone will love it. Thank you for any feedback!</comment>


Alexander Graham Bell's Tetrahedral Kites - <AUTHOR> http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/alexander-graham-bells-tetrahedral-kites-1903-9/ <comment><USER2> The kites were part of his exhaustive investigations into aerodynamics. There is an amazing display of his experimental propellers at the Bell Museum in Baddeck, Nova Scotia. They show how he methodically varied attributes to derive optimal pull. Well worth the visit.

</comment><comment><USER3> I once built a simple box kite. It was remarkable for me how easy it was and how it could somehow perform even when there seem to be no wind. It was easier to built than a diamond kite.

It was years ago and sometimes I'm thinking about building one again and placing some action camera up there. To make a few drone-like shots, but for much less money. But also because it's fun.

I built mine with a few wood slats, two shopping bags, some string and glue.

<comment><USER4> I built a diamond kite with my dad and it is one of my favortie childhood memories. For some reason I have never done it with my kids yet (Finding that awesome kite paper has been elusive) but I have built dozens with kids I worked with. Such a great learning experience.

[http://www.my-best-kite.com/kite-paper.html](http://www.my-best- kite.com/kite-paper.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This one looks like a Sierpinsky Triangle :)

[https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4226/35286566316_65bcda7d3f_b....](https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4226/35286566316_65bcda7d3f_b.jpg)

<comment><USER6> That'd be a Sierpinski tetrahedron, but it's the same idea. I think it's pretty interesting that these were made about ten years before Sierpinski described the fractals, but then again the design appeared in mosaics from much earlier:

[https://s-media-cache- ak0.pinimg.com/originals/52/98/75/5298...](https://s-media-cache- ak0.pinimg.com/originals/52/98/75/529875deedb52ebe7adad4a29d4dea48.jpg)

[https://s-media-cache- ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/7b/7c/06/7b7c06...](https://s-media-cache- ak0.pinimg.com/600x315/7b/7c/06/7b7c0653e7c82e33dddf7898e70baf2c.jpg)

<comment><USER7> Where were those pictures taken?

<comment><USER5> Reverse google image sleuthing leads to a pinterest board[0] that alleges they are of the Cosmatesque style[1], which means they maybe originate from somewhere in medieval Italy?

[0] [https://www.pinterest.com/paulettecadic/pavements-des- cosmat...](https://www.pinterest.com/paulettecadic/pavements-des-cosmates/)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmatesque](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmatesque)

<comment><USER6> Thanks for the sleuthing. I found them myself by searching for Cosmati mosaics, since Wikipedia mentions them in the article about the Sierpinski triangle.

Captions for the two images:

Francesco De Comité took this photograph in the Church Santa Maria in Trastevere, Rome,

Civita Castellana - Santa Maria Maggiore - Motivo detto "setaccio di Sierpinski"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's really inspiring and impressive the stability of these kites. The weight to lift ratios are also fantastic. The linked National Geographic articles are very informative and interesting.

Methinks this would make an excellent platform for a kite-antenna.

<comment><USER9> Do SpaceX's grid fins operate on similar principles?

[https://i.stack.imgur.com/rnHbB.jpg](https://i.stack.imgur.com/rnHbB.jpg)

(edit: and these: [http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0261.shtml](http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/q0261.shtml) )

<comment><USER10> I'm sure that those are designed such to eliminate as much drag as possible while also providing steering capabilities on descent?

<comment><USER11> On descent, one might think that increased drag is something of a useful feature.

<comment><USER10> True, except if it has an uncontrollable effect on the overall steering of the system.

Drag will vary greatly based on weather and wind, so it is likely not something one would want to count on.

<comment><USER11> I believe that variability would be the domain of the control system and launch/recovery parameters to handle no matter what the fin design. The shorthand way to think about it is that the fin should not add any variability that the control system does not have the authority to overcome (and by some margin above that) - else one would not choose that combination of design elements; apoligies if im retreading something you already know...

<comment><USER10> Yes, true - I just wasn't articulating that as clearly as you have.

I was thinking of "we don't want to rely on drag as a function of descent" rather than "drag doesn't matter, because the control system is fully advanced and capable enough to deal with any variance brought on by drag"

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> We built one in my company's lobby a few months back! [https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5332/30663005756_793b436f73_k....](https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5332/30663005756_793b436f73_k.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER13> Inspired apparently by (the under-appreciated) Lawrence Hargrave's box kites:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Hargrave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Hargrave)

</comment><comment><USER14> I had a tetrahedral kite growing up. That thing was amazing. It would lift off in a light breeze. And boy did it pull when the wind picked up. Great fun.

</comment><comment><USER15> Is that a Sierpinski's triangle kite almost ten years before Sierpinski wrote about it!? Regardless truly awesome.

<comment><USER16> Yup. But (at least according to Wikipedia's article about the ST) the pattern was around -- in art -- _centuries_ before Sierpiński!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Let us not forget Samuel Franklin Cowdery: [http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/man-lifting-kites- cody](http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/man-lifting-kites-cody) (not tetrahedral, but impressive)

</comment><comment><USER18> What's with that last picture?

<comment><USER19> The one of them kissing? I thought that was really cute and somewhat challenges my prejudices about people of that era being repressed, cold, unemotional and reluctant to exhibit public displays of affection.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Its amazing anyone thought it feasible to risk life and limb at the vagaries of the wind. Unpowered flight is fundamentally dangerous.</comment>


QR UX - <AUTHOR> http://interuserface.net/2011/12/qr-ux/

<comment><USER2> The suggestion that the photo/video toggle be converted to a three-way should be taken out back and shot. Currently, those little toggles work with a tap, which is the only reason they're tolerable.

I'm not a big fan of them in the first place, because most people I see interact with them attempt to _flip_ the switch. This action works, but it's tough when the widget is rendered at the smaller size (e.g., camera photo/video: small, prefs: large). Changing that to a three-way switch would make it an absolute nightmare to use.</comment>


Show HN: S3pal – command-line dev tool for easy S3 uploading and listing - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/jacktasia/s3pal

<comment><AUTHOR> I made this for proof of concepts where files need to be uploaded but no other backend is really necessary.

You can just set your s3 creds in the toml file (ideally after making an AMI user) and start the server (s3pal server) and you instantly have an endpoint for uploading.

[https://github.com/jacktasia/s3pal#s3pal-](https://github.com/jacktasia/s3pal#s3pal-)</comment>


Fluid oscillations in human sleep - <AUTHOR> https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6465/628 <comment><USER2> Press writeup: [http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/cerebrospinal-fluid- washing-...](http://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/cerebrospinal-fluid-washing-in- brain-during-sleep/)

The HN title seems quite misleading compared to the original title of "Coupled electrophysiological, hemodynamic, and cerebrospinal fluid oscillations in human sleep" (which could be shortened using CSF). The main focus of the study is measuring cerebrospinal fluid flows and its finding that CSF flow is correlated with slow wave EEG activity in this three phase neurons quiet, blood flow decreased, CSF flow increase pattern. The abstract does reference some work from 2006/2010 about consolidation and from 2015 about waste cleaning, but the paper is not a literature review paper so there's better writing on that subject elsewhere.

</comment><comment><USER3> Almost like the brain has a compaction and garbage collection phase.

<comment><USER4> I'm surprised nobody asked to rewrite it in Rust yet.

<comment><USER5> People have tried rewriting it in Metal many times but there is still a long way to go.

<comment><USER6> If anything, we should focus our efforts on porting it to Vulkan.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> It would be interesting to have them study brain functions during the so called "transcendental" meditation. The school claims that it were a third state of brain activity, somewhere inbetween of sleeping and being conscious. In my experience it also may have the cleaning effect.

</comment><comment><USER8> A side thought about this: dreams.

I have this theory that dreams are the experience of our brains rebooting after being taken down for maintenance; kind of like reading from uninitialized memory.

<comment><USER9> Dreams are maintenance. They are overnight batch processing after the realtime system is largely shut down. Your realtime conscious system then reboots from the now consolidated memory when you wake up.

You are a new and different person each morning.

<comment><USER6> This new and different person is practically indistinguishable from the old, though.

<comment><USER9> It depends. For example, if you were drinking you may have been conscious of things the night before that you no longer remember the next morning.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Sounds like the brain uses Doug Lea Malloc

<comment><USER11> Boehm GC

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Cleaning waste and Consolidating are almost opposite functions, I believe it archives the memory and waste together. I suffered from a traumatic event and simultaneously forgot about a bank account I opened a week earlier. Seven years later I tried to open a new account at the bank, was reminded about the account after getting into an argument with the manager, and the trauma returned in the form of insomnia and nightmares.

<comment><USER13> Physical metabolic waste, not figurative waste.</comment></comment>


Skype CEO Will Offer Users Credits For Outage - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/23/skype-ceo-will-offer-users-credits-for-outage-does-not-rule-out-malicious-attack/ <comment><USER2> Content of video:

\- Back to around 80%

\- Group video chat and offline IMs may be down for a while

\- Currently using dedicated servers to restore service

\- Looking into giving credit vouchers to paying customers

TechCrunch also has more on comments on their thoughts on the solution.</comment>


Software engineers made 51% of real estate transactions in San Francisco in 2018 - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/04/51percent/587389/ <comment><AUTHOR> It looks like the methodology was to try and match buyer's names to public profiles, so I suspect there will be some bias towards software engineers since they are more likely to have public profiles, but none the less an interesting find.

Also interesting is the fact that the number of public software companies in SF is expected to more than double this year.

<comment><USER2> Not to mention that wealthy buyers and foreign buyers are more likely to be using LLCs and Trusts to hide their identity.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Anyone else not feel very connected with the local tech scene? - <AUTHOR> I hope I'm not the only one feeling like this. Well, being without a job adds to that, but overall I don't have many connections to other software engineers.
I graduated with an art degree with a focus in web design/web development. None of my high school friends or college friends are software engineers. They don't even know of anyone who is or is hiring in a company (so even 2 degrees of separation is hard to find).
Everyone in my family works in blue collar jobs or service jobs. They don't have any strong connects in the tech world either. That goes the same for extended family, like my mom's cousin and their children.
The only way I can stay in touch with other software developers is to go to local meetups. And sometimes chatting/emailing with them, which I usually do when I'm at Starbucks (there's no internet at home).
Maybe it's due to living in Chicago that makes it a bit more difficult. Still, a software engineer that's not friends with any software engineers, kinda weird? Anyone else in the same spot? <comment><USER2> I am in a weird position in that I run the only dev shop in Key West. So while we have connection to other developers there are only about 15 of us for a 200 mile radius.

Before that I worked remote for seven years so literally my entire network consist of 15 guys in Key West and a bunch of people in Austin and the valley. Sometime it can feel isolating, but their are trade-offs like living in a Caribbean paradise.

</comment><comment><USER3> I feel the same way. Don't know any software engineers or developers outside of work, rarely meet anyone in the field outside of the odd meetup (and usually not even then) and come from a family who work in other industries.

However, I suspect it might be a location/culture thing more than anything personal. I mean, over here in London it seems like most people in the tech industry don't really care for it as a passion or hobby, but just treat programming like a 9-5 job without any extra side projects going on outside of that.

Maybe that's the case in Chicago where you are too. Maybe most of the companies there are filled with people who at the end of the day just don't care about tech as much as Silicon Valley folk do. Maybe for them it's just a 9-5 deal like it is for many folk here. There's nothing unusual about that.

</comment><comment><USER4> Similar here, although there are no decent meetups where I am. I was the only one amongst my group of friends that caught the programming bug early on, and only one of two in my whole year group I think that went on to do software dev.

In hindsight it sucks a bit not being able to bounce things off friends, but you're normally/hopefully going to have colleagues for that. I guess the most dangerous situation is having no friends in IT, and working as the sole IT person somewhere... you may not get exposed to new ideas or best practices etc. Easily the most I've learned (in terms of useful things that I otherwise might have missed) is from pair-programming (can be frustrating too). Otherwise I think it's pretty healthy hanging out with non-IT people out of hours.

</comment><comment><USER5> I was in a similar spot. Studied Math/Stats, and my friends were not in tech. I've made some now, but still don't have many really good friends in tech. It seems studying CS can be a real group activity, where you work together on assignments/apps/job prep. I missed out on that - just finished a job search & prep that was completely solo after working on apps completely solo.

Going to local meetups helps but it's probably leaving you unsatisfied due to the low frequency. Some suggestions that worked for me:

      - Keep an eye out for local tech companies you want to work for or just like: some might host open houses, or sponsor hackathons. You may hear about this through Meetup.com but not always
      - I'm betting Chicago has a Slack dev group. I'm in the Slack dev group for where I am now and where I'm going to move, and it's a good way to stay connected, ask questions, and absorb discussion that you want but aren't getting in your day-to-day
      - If you have any interest in volunteering, look for things like Ladies Learning Code and the like going on in your area. Usually the mentors there who want to help young kids are established in the industry. You can go, help younger generations with what you know, with an added benefit of getting to know other mentors, who may help you down the line.

This is a phase in your life that will pass once you start working in the field. I know it may feel hard right now, but hopefully this piece of advice helps (which I found true for me, and I hear from others in the industry): your "outsider"-ness can be spun into a benefit. You see the tech world through different eyes, you come unhinged without biases. And, being fresh and without experience, you will be hungrier, more persistent, and more willing to learn something new than somebody who has roots and comfort zones.

Once you pass through this phase and "make it", don't forget to give back when called upon; you will now be "that" person in this network comprised of non- tech people, in a world that is ubiquitous with tech.

<comment><AUTHOR> I actually have about seven years of work experience in the field right now. But I don't stay in touch with my co-workers much. I don't really make many friends at work, and instead keep to a small circle of friends I know since high school. Most of my job search really is like yours- just solo bombing resumes to job sites- very seldom do I get any leads for interviews from people I personally know.

<comment><USER6> I run a small company that primarily designs and sells hardware (data radios), but we need to focus more energy higher up the stack. I would be happy to talk; we work out of mHub at Halsted and Chicago.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sounds interesting. How do I PM you for details?

<comment><USER6> syed at outernet dot is

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> It sounds like you could get more integrated into a startup hub — good news, there's definitely one in Chicago [1][2]. Meetups and coworking spaces are a big part. You also might check out 1871 [3] to find startup people in Chicago.

[1]: [https://angel.co/chicago](https://angel.co/chicago)

[2]: [https://www.meetup.com/cities/us/il/chicago/tech/](https://www.meetup.com/cities/us/il/chicago/tech/)

[3]: [https://1871.com](https://1871.com)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I've been using those sites for a while already. Meetups is very helpful in finding other programmers. 1871 and Angel.co I haven had much luck with getting interviews.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Kind of similar here. My parents were in tech and engineering before USSR collapsed, and then moved on to other fields. I never made any permanent friends during school or university, and in the end the only tech people i know were the ones i worked with, and usually the "know" kind of ended with the job.

I am somewhat confused by what do you mean by "feeling connected", however. What do you expect to give or receive from that connection?

Personally, i struggle to imagine a meaningful "shop talk" between two programmers that isn't job related. There is just literally nothing to talk about.

<comment><AUTHOR> >I am somewhat confused by what do you mean by "feeling connected", however. What do you expect to give or receive from that connection?

I guess I'm expecting more momentum to be built from my professional experience. Being in touch with a circle of people that talk shop, and bounce job opportunities back and forth. Right now keeping in touch with people in the industry doesn't feel as organic. Meetups help but it's still a bit forced from my view.

I believe that benefits occur more organically simply by making friends. But as I said, my friends are not very familiar with the software industry, nor know anyone who hires in that industry, so they can't really help me out in the professional world.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Of course. Wordpress/node.js/php + no-ambition is all the rage. I visit once a year to see if things have changed (they haven't for several years).</comment>


Obama announces: 'We are building Iron Man' - <AUTHOR> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/obama-announces-we-are-building-iron-man-9159969.html

<comment><USER2> _" The President then confirmed this was just a joke"_, as the article quickly points out.

</comment><comment><USER3> I have my doubts.</comment>


SSH Certificate Authorities Explained - <AUTHOR> https://gravitational.com/blog/ssh-certificates-explained/ <comment><USER2> love all trust few always paddle your own canoe</comment>


Apple's copycats are turning into true iPhone competitors - <AUTHOR> http://www.theverge.com/2016/4/6/11379640/apple-huawei-xiaomi-design-competition <comment><USER2> Not sure how this was posted with a straight face. The article includes a picture of three phones stacked that are very similar in color and design to an iPhone. I had to check the side of my iPhone to be sure it wasn't that device.

On top of that, the video is produced in the same style as the new Apple videos. They might as well have lifted the soundtrack straight off of Apple. All that's missing is Ive narrating.

</comment><comment><USER3> Yah, Apple had NFC first! And large screens! And pressure, temperature sensors! And GPS! And a native API!

Their competitors have useless features like replaceable batteries, expandable storage, AMOLED screens, waterproofing, non proprietary headphones, multiple app marketplaces, and a wide variety of choices.

</comment><comment><USER4> Apple copies as much as everyone else. Features that apple considered no-no 2 years ago find their way in its newer models. Not blaming apple, Its normal, that's how the industry works.</comment>


Show HN: Vue-Model – Models with HTTP Actions for Vue.js - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/aarondfrancis/vue-model <comment><USER2> I'm usually a Django backend developer doing the whole server-rendered static html type sites, but I've attempted to venture into the world of single page apps a few times. The thing that always tripped me up was figuring out the frontend model layer. Nothing I've used, whether Redux or Vuex or Mobx or whatever else seemed as elegant and simple as say the Django ORM is on the backend. There were always missing pieces that I couldn't quite get working cleanly, like validation, or loading indicators, etc.

This looks like it has the potential to be what I was hoping someone would make. Looks excellent so far, thanks for sharing!

<comment><USER3> I strongly believe that you are used to thinking in the MVC way of thinking. Redux (and alternatives) are not the classical MVC structure and it takes some time to get used to it. In a backend environment, a controller might call a Model's function, take some data and return them back. In a frontend app, especially in the componentized world of React, things are quite different because you don't have controllers, your components are deep nested in your app's tree, they may query an API to get data or they may query the local cache. A simple model per component/multiple components approach won't work.

Once you get used to it, you will actually see that it's even more flexible and easy to write applications and can even benefit your backend code as well. E.g., I have stopped creating models on my backend code and instead, I am writing modules that may query a table, or two tables or talk to another API. I am using them whenever it makes sense to, not just the controllers.

My background is from creating both backend and frontend apps and I hope the above to holds true since I've been there but let me know if I am wrong here.

<comment><USER4> To add to this:

The client model is different from the server model!

Of course, it is not totally different, but different enough to warrant separate treatment, and the most differences are fundamental, not just differences in detail.

The client model is mostly hierarchical, not a cross-connected graph, so it contains multiple "tree-ifications" of the server model. Also, most parts of the tree have much fewer fields, as not all data fields are meant to show up in the client. And that set of fields might be different in different corners of the client. One server model class might have multiple vastly different representations in the client model, depending on the corner of the user interface. On top of all that, the client model contains transitional information about the state of the user interface that is not represented in the server model at all, such as which item in a list is selected, which part of a map is shown, which parts of a document are folded or opened, and so on.

Finally, the client model operates mostly in an "open world" fashion, while the server model is a "closed world". I'm using these terms in the meaning of Prolog terminology.

That is, the client must always assume that on server side, there are more records that it currently has, and that each record may have more fields on server side than the client is aware of. So with very few exceptions, the client should always perform minimal changes (insert/update/delete), not bulk changes. And after reach change, it should retrieve a fresh state from the server, because another client might have changed something as well, and because the server might have decided to perform some other changes (update calculated/cached fields) as well.

The server, on the other side, usually has the whole database at its fingertips, so it can safely perform large-scale changes, not just minimal changes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Hey, this seems cool but I don't really know why...

New to vue.js and maybe I'm doing things... Wrong? But I don't think I need this.

My approach is very angularJs-esque but I have a root component 'main.vue' which basically acts as my index.html. When I want to send a REST call I've got a method setup which handles GET calls and another for POST calls... I use them how you would call an angular service, and it works... Well (at least I thought so until seeing your post).

Can you explain why I'm stupid and everything I've done is wrong?

<comment><AUTHOR> > Can you explain why I'm stupid and everything I've done is wrong?

Haha I cannot, because you probably aren't stupid and haven't done everything wrong.

The thing I like about this approach is that it removes the need for manually: 1) writing `saveCustomer` or `getCustomer` methods on my vue instance 2) tracking validation errors for each model. So if there's a collection of models on the page, I can super easily show errors for each 3) keeping track of loading indicators 4) applying the server's response to the model.

In your setup, what happens if the HTTP call fails? You have to do something with that error right? What happens if you want to show a spinning indicator that the call is working. If the server returns a response (on say a fetch or an index), what do you do with that response?

I think this ([https://github.com/aarondfrancis/vue-model#update-a- model](https://github.com/aarondfrancis/vue-model#update-a-model)) is a good example to try to work out with the centralized service approach, and see which you like better.

Try it for one model, and then think about if you had to do two or three similar resources.

Hope that makes sense!

<comment><USER5> Hmm interesting ideas.

To answer your questions, if http call fails I'm currently handling it in a .Catch. I haven't done much specific error handling yet, was probably going to do a bunch of if statements to figure out the nature of the error and then output relevant messages to toast.

For the loading indicator(s) I was planning on using just one, globally, like YouTube does - their slim red line that runs a long the top of the viewport?

I'll definitely look more into your library but I'm hesitant to bulk up my app unless something provides critical functionality. Using Quasar framework right now and already a little conserned with load times and bulk. Although I haven't built for production yet with full minification, etc.

Thanks for your time in responding to my stupid questions!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> @author: please take a look at [http://feathersjs.com](http://feathersjs.com) \- your work is very interesting, but you should make it a layer on top of a modular backend service and feathers would be a good choice, but maybe people would like to use phoenix or other backends on the server.

Also you may be interested in [http://derbyjs.com/](http://derbyjs.com/) and do some research about operational transformations.

Ah, and please do not forget that in a real app you need to lock the records users are editing, but not indefinitely.

Thanks and happy coding!

<comment><USER6> Another interesting read for anyone designing CRUD software in 2017: [https://ipfs.io/blog/30-js-ipfs-crdts.md](https://ipfs.io/blog/30-js-ipfs- crdts.md)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> As a backend developer let me tell you this looks so familiar. This is a good thing because the frontend MVCs did quite clicked for me yet.

</comment><comment><USER8> What exactly happens when the user modifies the field customer.name but doesn't hit save/trigger customer.http.update()? I usually resolve this by mirroring customer.name to this.formData.name and having a reset property for this.formData.

Also how does it work with nested models returned from the server? Can I do user.tickets.push(newTicket) in some form?

<comment><AUTHOR> If the user modifies customer.name and then doesn't trigger save, nothing happens, ie: doesn't persist to the backend.

To "reset" a form, I guess you could get it again from the server via customer.http.fetch()

<comment><USER8> But how do I know when to fetch? With my approach global state is not modified until the user explicitly does it. Modifying customer.name and not saving it will persist until the next fetch() and in the meantime the user will see it as if the name was actually saved.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not sure I'm following your exact setup... But you could of course just make a model for your form and _not_ your customer. Without seeing your full setup, it's hard for me to say for sure!

<comment><USER8> In my apps customer will be a global via VueX. If I go to the Edit Customer view, change customer.name, but don't save, the change will be visible throughout the rest of the app: the customer list, all the other views where the customer's name is displayed. It would be a bug to show unsaved data anywhere but in the edit view. And if I go to the edit view, make changes, then exit without saving, then go back, the view should be reset. Making two copies of a global model instance seems like the wrong solution.

Edit: what this is missing is essentially an implementation of forms. That doesn't necessarily need to be a part of this project, but it should be used together with this. Otherwise you end up at least temporarily persisting changes that were never saved. See the relationship between Django models and forms.

Also, one feature I have implemented in at least one of my apps has been using WebSockets to deliver new, updated, and deleted models from the server. That could be a super powerful addition here.

<comment><USER9> > And if I go to the edit view, make changes, then exit without saving, then > go back, the view should be reset.

This is business logic and it's dependent of the UI. If you have a Save button but the user doens't save and leaves the page, on change route you reset the model. If it doesn't have an explicit button, on change route you save the model. It has nothing to do with the framework.

If you mean the library doesn't have a way to reset the model to its original state, it doesn't take too long to implement, just call fetch as the author says or when you load the original model store a copy somewhere, even inside the model itself.

<comment><USER8> I disagree. First, I don't want to write a "destructor" for every view a model it touches, because I already have to write a "constructor". I will reset the view's local state when it's activated and not worry about resetting it when it is deactivated. Also, my apps are built such that state is shared across tabs of the app if they are open in the same browser. The user doesn't have to navigate away to see model changes. So your solution would be broken in that case.

Calling fetch all the time because the user navigated away doesn't make sense performance wise.

Think about it. If Django/RoR had their ORM make all modal instances global singletons and any view there could modify the properties of the model, but for persistence still had to save them to the DB, would you want all of your views to have to roll their own reset code? Would you trust such code? No. That would be nuts. So why is that ok on the client side? Local state is ok for emphemeral data. Use it instead of modifying global state with data that is not ready to be committed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Nice. Will give it a whirl in my next project.

Question for the author: is this "production-ready", or is it a toy project? If I start using this, do I have to worry about you abandoning the project six months down the line as you become interested in other things?

That in my mind is the biggest issue with open-source in general: people release stuff into the wild but don't follow through.

<comment><AUTHOR> Would it have been better if I'd never released it?

This free software comes with no guarantees either explicit or implied.

That being said, I use it all the time so I plan on maintaining it. You are also welcome to contribute if you find something that needs fixing

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I like this, but I feel that a repository pattern would be better suited (Repo.update(model) vs model.update(), model being ).

</comment><comment><USER12> Laravel Spark has similar functionality without the need for a plugin which makes it more reusable.

[https://spark.laravel.com/docs/4.0/forms](https://spark.laravel.com/docs/4.0/forms)

<comment><USER13> Yeah, but then you're writing PHP :^)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> Neat! Is this meant to replace Vuex / some other store?

<comment><AUTHOR> No, I probably wouldn't say that this replaces Vuex.

I don't use Vuex, I find it to be more complex than I need. I build a lot of CRUDdy apps that are pretty straightforward, so I've never dived into it much. I've watched the lessons on Laracasts for it, but just don't need it yet.

This is to replace the instances where you have a update() methods in your vue instances that set up axios, organize the data, send the request, and handle the response.

It's very much for restful resources.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> I like it but the naming is rather weird. 'vue model' is heavily used in the vueniverse.

</comment><comment><USER16> Ah the legacy of Rails. Active Record anti-patterns for everything.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for checking it out! I put a lot of work into it so it's nice to know you looked at it.

<comment><USER16> There are many better ways to manage front end state that don't actively encourage violating SOLID principles, SRP and OCP in particular. Obviously no one cares about SOLID anymore.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for continuing to take such an interest in this! It seems like you don't like and won't ever use the project, which is perfectly ok with me.

<comment><USER16> Yes I do take an interest in helping others avoid mistakes I've made in the past. It isn't really an unreasonable thing to do. I'm actually sorry that it appears this won't be of help to you.

<comment><USER17> Maybe you could talk more about better solutions instead of vague handy-wavey bashing?</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Jackfruit could save millions from starvation - <AUTHOR> http://www.businessinsider.com/this-miracle-fruit-tastes-like-pulled-pork-2015-8 <comment><USER2> As A Bangladeshi - Jackfruits are awesome !

I believe everyone should try eating it once in life.

I find the notion that jackfruits are "poor man's food" to be weird. When did fruits have a caste system ?

Anyway I am glad that americans think jackfruits are cool - it might finally create a market outside of bangladesh where we can sell it, I mean we cannot keep this tasty and awesome fruit to ourselves now can we ? :)</comment>