What Google Learned from Its Quest to Build the Perfect Team - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/magazine/what-google-learned-from-its-quest-to-build-the-perfect-team.html?_r=1 <comment><USER2> previous best (of 5 submits), 4 months ago ~ [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11174399](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11174399) worth re-reading this because it is a timeless problem.

<comment><USER3> And also as mentioned in previous threads where this link was posted, all the other stories in this "The Work Issue" are equally high quality.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Got through the first 3 paragraphs where the title hadn't even been acknowledge, let alone answered, and stopped reading.

Increasing I find storytelling in journalism to be less and less tolerable. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely a place for long form non-fiction. If this were titled in such a way that it were to be a story and not a fact-piece I would probably have less of a problem with it; I could have filed it away in a to-read-later bookmark.

But when the title elicits that there is information to be had; I want that information, and nothing else.

<comment><USER5> That's really unfortunate and naive. Not everything, particularly the subtle dynamics of human interaction, can be succinctly distilled into an abstract- style paragraph. Oftentimes it takes great writing skill to set right perspective, context, and background for the information to make sense or "click" \- perspective which I find to be more valuable than the raw "information" or study results.

Storytelling is sometimes the only way to properly convey information.

\- slightly edited for clarity -

<comment><USER6> No, I'm with Touche here. Too many articles hide the actual story under a "human angle" aspect where we have to learn about someone's early childhood growing up in Soviet Russia, or their first failed business, or that time their father said Something Memorable to them. I've read so many of those now that I start to fall asleep before the article begins talking about whatever it is talking about. The naivety on display here is the journalists sticking hard-and-fast to the rules we're taught in middle school English class: you have to have a "hook" so that the audience get's caught! But those hooks are artificial and repetitive - let the content speak for itself. If it can't, then the article isn't worth my reading.

Anecdotes are still relevant. But using them religiously as the opening turns me away.

<comment><USER7> That's especially annoying since journalists should know better! It's them who have "golden standard" of the "inverted pyramid". I.e. a headline should be the "tl;dr" of the article. Then the first paragraph should be a little longer "tl;dr" of the article. The reader should be able to recursively learn more details, but also should be able to walk away with all the core facts after the very first paragraph.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Here is a high-level summary...

After studying over 180 google teams they didn't find any evidence that the composition of the teams mattered (i.e. friends outside of work, male/female, introverts, extroverts, intelligence). Instead what they focused on were the "group norms" or unwritten rules of how the groups interacted with each other. There were two norms that were most important to a successful group.

1) Members spoke in roughly the same proportion, what the researchers call, ''equality in distribution of conversational turn-taking.''

2) Members all had "average social sensitivity". They could understand how other team members felt based on non-verbal queues. The underperforming teams had low sensitivity amongst the team members.

<comment><USER9> My guess is that teams which have members with high sensitivity didn't do well, either. If you're afraid of speaking up because someone will get upset at you, you're only a superficial member of the team.

Both of these criteria amount to different facets of the same thing: teams have to work together as a _team_. That sounds stupid, but practical criteria as given above help to define that simple statement.

<comment><USER10> > high sensitivity

I agree. That is probably the wrong term for the phenomenon. There are elements of forthrightness and trust that aren't captured by the word 'sensitivity'. On top of that 'sensitivity' carries negative connotations to many.

<comment><USER11> I think this is what's called Power Distance Index (PDI) in Hofstede's cultural dimensions theory. It's a fairly well established set of sociability measurements that's been around since the 1970s and is quite well established. Interestingly it also emerged from another (perhaps the original) large multicultural global technology organisation: IBM

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_distance

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> This continuous Google worshiping is really tiring. When you talk to Googlers nowadays, they seem to be pretty depressed as interesting projects dried up, and demoralized by seeing people spending 90% of their time playing office politics and backstabbing getting promotions. Compare Google in 2006 with the one in 2016 - would you really like to work there these days? If you are smart, you can build a core of your business and then let yourself be acquihired by the big players if you wish to, why bother with employment at Google unless it's your first job outside university?

<comment><USER13> > If you are smart, you can build a core of your business and then let > yourself be acquihired by the big players if you wish to, why bother with > employment at Google unless it's your first job outside university?

Because if you care more about tech than about building products, startups suck. It's a whole culture based on wasting money with inefficient technology ( _cough_ cloud) at a ridiculously small scale, both in usage and in complexity.

I've had 20% projects at Google that I spent a few weeks working on and likely handle more traffic than a whole batch of YC backed startups.

<comment><USER14> Depends on the startup

Not everywhere is a joyful money incinerator.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> tl;dr - teams are most effective when people feel psychological safe to contribute equally. Creating psychological safety can be accomplished through conversational turn-taking and empathy. In the best teams, members listen to one another and show sensitivity to each other's ideas feelings and needs.

<comment><USER11> See Asimov's ideas on creativity - it is essential for the production of new ideas that team members feel they are in an environment where "stupid" ideas are not mocked. For every 1 good idea it's fair to imagine there might be 10 daft ones. The more ideas in circulation the better - and it also gives people with daft ideas an opportunity to have them challenged in a constructive fashion - which may lead to them developing the kernel of their idea that might not be so daft.

        http://www.openculture.com/2014/10/isaac-asimov-explains-the-origins-of-good-ideas-creativity.html

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> As other are saying, so many words, so little content. tl;dr: you can't rely on data alone to build optimal teams (sometimes it's about experiences and such) and Google pretty much did nothing to optimize teams (in spite of spending years on it)

</comment><comment><USER17> What I get from this article is that working collaboratively is a lot more efficient than working in a spirit of competition. Specially, if you have members with different backgrounds among your team. Working collaboratively requires a trust bond between each members and usually it takes time. As we build and dismantle team sometimes at a fast pace it may be difficult to attain this state in today'S work environment.

</comment><comment><USER18> I am really tired of long articles. how hard is it to provide a few bullet points or a two lines summury for people that do no afford to read the entire page?

<comment><USER19> I was playing around with this idea at Abbreviated Press. [http://abbr.press](http://abbr.press) \- Pet project because I was sick of reading long articles, and just wanted bulleted format as well.

</comment></comment><comment> compiler-guy The day my manager takes me to an offsite and requires personal self- disclosure to my coworkers is the day I quit.

I like my coworkers--some of them quite a bit, but I have boundaries. And my personal life is not material for my company to improve its efficiency.

</comment><comment><USER20> I don't want Sakaguchi to die!

</comment><comment><USER21> While reading that article the page changed its font-size by at least 150% five times (thus far). No I did not press any buttons. There is some detection Javascript running that gets confused. Maybe my touch screen (laptop)? Page zoom does not change, CTRL-0 does not reset the size, so it's not me.

As for the article... I'm amazed this is so popular (given the attention previous submissions here already got). Well, I guess it's nice to have a link to point to for all the things that _do not_ matter.

This sentence scares me:

> Rozovsky and her colleagues had figured out which norms were most critical. > Now they had to find a way to make communication and empathy — the building > blocks of forging real connections — into an algorithm they could easily > scale.

And this is a surprise:

> ''By putting things like empathy and sensitivity into charts and data > reports, it makes them easier to talk about,'' Sakaguchi told me. ''It's > easier to talk about our feelings when we can point to a number.''

and

> And thanks to Project Aristotle, she now had a vocabulary for explaining to > herself what she was feeling and why it was important. _She had graphs and > charts telling her that she shouldn't just let it go._

Really? I have to crunch some numbers how I feel about this.

.

.

PS: figured it out: When I just touch the screen the font-size changes. There are three steps. It takes a double-click with the mouse - but only a single touch with the finger on the touchscreen. I can't imagine this being useful _anywhere_ \- especially since when you have a touchscreen you can also already do a two-finger zoom if you want to.</comment>


Storm Chasing on Saturn - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/science/space/storm-chasing-on-saturn.html

<comment><USER2> I hadn't realized that the hexagon wad originally discovered decades ago ... i always thought it was a recently discovered phenomenon.</comment>


Broke Town, U.S.A. - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/magazine/06Muni-t.html?seid=auto&smid=tw-nytimesbusiness&pagewanted=all

<comment><USER2> This is what makes me think we're only in phase 1 of the financial meltdown. The article tries to paint a rosy picture saying we just need the "political will" to make changes. But we're a nation where the national debt's risen from 8 Trillion in Oct. 2005 to 14 Trillion a mere 5 years later yet we've chosen to run up a projected 1.6 trillion deficit this year. So where's that political will?

And if cities and states start declaring bankruptcy it will impact the country in two important ways:

1\. All the state workers will see their pensions evaporate to the bare minimum which will cause them to cut their spending to the bare minimum.

2\. All the 401(k) plans that are filled with supposedly safe muni bonds are going to see their investments evaporate which will cause the holders of those 401(k) plans to cut their spending to the bare minimum.

My argument is the net effect of this is all those people are essentially unemployed as far as the economy's concerned. Because unemployed people are provided the bare minimum by the state so a person who is working but living on a bare minimum budget has the same economic impact.

Suddenly you have a society that consists of people who don't have money and people who have money but put it all in savings which does next to nothing to spur the economy.

Meaning the nation is going to be faced with a scenario that mimics an unemployment rate of 60% or more and I can't imagine what will happen then.

</comment><comment><USER3> I thought it was a good article until the last sentence:

 _Until voters can agree on what government services they want and will pay for, it is possible that bondholders will bank the profits while taxpayers, employees and citizens share the losses._

I don't understand the need to take a shot at the bondholders here. This isn't a case where investment bankers took advantage of overmatched finance people. The cities and states offered bonds for sale. The bonds were purchased by average people in return for an agreed to interest payment.

<comment><USER4> It was fairly good, but it completely mischaracterized what's going on in WI. Walker approved $140m in corporate tax breaks - just before announcing a $138m deficit. If he hadn't given corporate tax breaks, the government would have been in the black.

I haven't researched, but I'm willing to bet the Koch family company benefited.

<comment><USER2> I don't expect research but at least do a search on Wisconsin Budget Deficit. That's what I did and I came up with this (<http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/109275069.html>)...

 _Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle's administration on Friday told Republican Governor-elect Scott Walker that he would have to cope with a $2.2 billion deficit in the state's upcoming two-year budget, but this brighter-than- expected forecast contained more than $1 billion in hidden pain.

To arrive at the favorable estimate, the Doyle administration's estimate assumed that Walker and lawmakers would make spending cuts that have yet to actually happen - two more years of state employee furloughs, no pay raises, a virtual hiring freeze and belt tightening in state health programs. Without that $1.1 billion in savings, the state's projected shortfall rises to $3.3 billion - a significant increase over previous estimates that put the gap at between $2.7 billion and $3.1 billion._

Even liberal blogger Ezra Klein backed off the claim you're making ([http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra- klein/2011/02/wisconsi...](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra- klein/2011/02/wisconsins_fiscal_condition.html))...

 _As I wrote in the update to my original post on Wisconsin, my initial understanding of the way Gov. Scott Walker's tax cuts had changed his state's budget picture was wrong: They didn't add to this year's deficit, but to the 2011-13 deficit. That doesn't make them any more fiscally responsible, but it does mean they're not behind the deterioration in Wisconsin's 2011 budget projections. They're behind part of the deterioration in their 2011-2013 budget projections._

<comment><USER4> Hadn't seen that that'd been backed off from. Thanks for updating me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I find it hilarious that the caption under the right side image reads: "You could see 50 to 100 sizable defaults," Meredith Whitney, a prominent doomsayer, said on "60 Minutes."

How does one rise through the ranks of the doomsaying profession?

<comment><USER6> The doomsaying profession isn't what it used to be. Tragic hard times are coming, and by the end of the decade most doomsayers will be covered in puss begging for pennies down by the local Wal-Mart. If they're lucky.

Seriously, though, this article had a lot of random details strewn about, but not enough thread to connect them. Can cites and states declare bankruptcy? Yes. No. Well kinda, but it doesn't help. Are structural issues like union contracts for future payments in terms of benefits a problem? Yes, but not really: the author just makes a passing reference to "political will" as being a problem, whatever that means.

All I got from the article was the unsaid conclusion that governments can simply not pay their debts without defaulting. I wonder if this will be a viable strategy?

<comment><USER7> At the municipal level, things have been stretched since the boom days in 2004, 2005. Most of them have laws that make it very hard to raise taxes, a pay structure that historically has slanted towards better benefits in exchange for lower pay, and a 10-year run of health insurance cost increases at 10-15% a year. So in many places, they've already cut to the bone, (and did so during the "boom years", to boot).

Basically the best thing we can do for municipalities and states is to bend that healthcare cost curve. Unless we do, it's going to be lay people off, raise taxes or both every single year.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Google referer link so you can read the article:

[http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/0...](http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/magazine/06Muni-t.html?pagewanted=all)

</comment><comment><USER9> _Calls for any but the most serious crimes go unanswered. Residents who complain about prostitutes or vandals are told to fill out a form._

My god that needs a citation.

</comment><comment><USER10> Be prepared for Roman fire brigades.

<comment><USER11> Or possibly just an annual fee, paid in advance, to ensure service. Not unknown in rural areas already, where people in unincorporated areas without fire departments can elect to pay out-of-area coverage to nearby municipalities.

I remember some sort of controversy about that late last year, when a man who didn't pay the annual fee for firefighting service ended up losing his house.

<comment><USER12> Some version of that is occasionally proposed for forest fires in California, but it's never managed to get enacted. Even if we accept that putting out the fire overall is the state's responsibility, a significant portion of the cost of fighting a forest fire is in saving clusters of houses (or occasionally individual houses) that are pretty close to the fire, but seem saveable. In terms of just containing the fire, it's much more efficient to put up a fairly wide perimeter and let everything within it burn, rather than sending in units to spray foam on individual houses.

So it's occasionally proposed that that gets reformed somehow: either be less aggressive in trying to save houses overall; or do so but bill the owners; or stop doing it unless owners buy some sort of supplemental insurance in advance; etc. Not a very popular proposal, though. An alternate one is to assess some kind of "you live in a high-risk area" supplemental property tax, which would be more or less like a mandatory version of the insurance option.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask YC:  Would it make sense to build a social news site using bounce rate instead of voting? - <AUTHOR>

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounce_Rate:
"The Bounce Rate for a single page is the number of visitors who enter the site at a page and leave within the specified timeout period without viewing another page, divided by the total number of visitors who entered the site at that page."
You could approximate this in a social news site by seeing what fraction of users quickly return after checking out a link.
Given that most users don't vote at all, perhaps something like this would be desirable? <comment><USER2> What about if you open up every article you find potentially interesting in a new tab, and stay on the page?

This is how I use YC news, and I don't think im alone.

<comment><USER3> I agree. I don't like how the links open over HN, so I always open the outgoing links in new tabs.

Feature request: Could the links to outside sites open in new tabs/windows by default, so that we don't navigate away from HN when we actually use this site?

<comment><USER4>
      // ==UserScript==
      // @name				 news.yc open in new tab
      // @namespace		 http://joshwand.com/
      // @description	 opens links on news.yc's list pages in new tabs/windows
      // @include			 http://news.ycombinator.com/
      // @include			 http://news.ycombinator.com/news
      // @include			 http://news.ycombinator.com/newest
      // @include			 http://news.ycombinator.com/x?*

      // ==/UserScript==

      var a, links, thisdomain;
      thisdomain = window.location.host;

      links = document.getElementsByTagName('a');
      for (var i = 0; i < links.length; i++) {
          a = links[i];
          if (a.host && (a.host != thisdomain || String(a).match(/item\?id=/))) {
              a.target = "_blank";
          }
      }

<comment><USER5> I would prefer the loop this way:

      for each(a in links)
       if (a.host && (a.host!=thisdomain || String(a).match(/item\?id=/)))
        a.target = "_blank";

<comment><USER4> What can I say, I don't actually know JS. I just cargo-culted this from another similar script.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> My site klipboardz.com ups the vote on each story for any registered user that reads it, then a user can down vote it if they didn't like it. I assume that if you care enough to read a link then it should get an up-vote.

<comment><USER7> That seems a little bit illogical. Why does clicking a link equal up-votes? If you really want to factor in link clicks, then maybe a counter of the times the link has been clicked displayed alongside the votes would be interesting.

But making me come back to down-vote a crappy story/link is really kind of irritating.

<comment><USER6> But if the headline, description, and picture were enough to get you to read the link then it should get a bump. Most people go read the story and never come back, even if they liked it, to up vote. I do that all the time here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think people like clicking on the arrows to make them feel like they're having a say, without actually having to put in (much) effort.

In all honesty, the churn is so high on most sites that the bias is heavily skewed towards "current", not "me" so it might not feel as "smart" without the arrows.

But hey, what do I know. Sounds interesting enough to try as a quick hack of news.arc at the very least.

</comment><comment><USER9> I think that that's an important piece of information that's rarely used. Like brlewis says, not perfect, but I think you could use it well.

I think it's more suitable for a single site rather than a link aggregator/social news, because once you follow a link on the site, how do you know when the user leaves that page?

<comment><AUTHOR> As an approximation, you could see what fraction of users quickly return to the social news site after visiting the link.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> When you're viewing a story from here, how often do you click anything else on the site? I don't click other links very often, even if I really enjoyed or benefited from the linked article. So, in the end you'll get different numbers, but they'd be no more complete or accurate than what you already have.

This idea would only seem to encourage more sites to spread a simple article across too many pages so that they could better count and track the visitors. But then as a referrer, you still couldn't do much to get access to those numbers.

</comment><comment><USER10> A good way to handle article voting is to have the voting panel (with the up & down arrows) as a window frame on top of the article webpage.

That way article voting is fairer (i.e. only users who click the article link from the news site to read the article get to see the voting panel). Secondly this approach also makes it easier for voters to rate the article instantly without having to go back & forth to the news site.

</comment><comment><USER11> I think a better way would be to develop a site that used a file to track views.

IE Each story has a unique image and that is inserted into the foot of the article. You could then count the uniques on that.

</comment><comment><USER12> Google does this for ranking search results. It's not a new idea. I would be surprised if no social news site used it already.

</comment><comment><USER13> No metric is perfect, but this one really sounds like it's worth a try.

<comment><USER14> I think the amount and frequency of comments should play a role as well. Even if a user doesn't particularly like a link (as evidenced by a down vote) if the article is generating comments and discussion (vs. a preset benchmark) it shows that it's at least interesting and notable in some way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> jaanix does it already, takes into account everything: views, clicks, ratings, tags.</comment>


In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180729-why-brazilians-are-always-late <comment><USER2> "My impression as to your cheap labour was soon disillusioned when I saw your people at work. No doubt they are lowly paid, but the return is equally so; to see your men at work made me feel that you are a very satisfied and easy-going race who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed me that it was impossible to change the habits of a national heritage."

This excerpt appears in Ha-Joon Chang's book "Bad Samaritans" and it was written by an Australian consultant with regards to Japan in August 1915. Chang also mentions Sidney Gulick's 1903 book "Evolution of the Japanese" which also stereotypes the Japanese as "'easy-going' and 'emotional' people who possessed qualities like 'lightness of heart, freedom from all anxiety for the future, living chiefly for the present.'"

I don't have details on Brazil, but I am almost certain that this "Brazilian time" is just a symptom of some completely reversible, systemic problem that is making it difficult to do business with high-technologies in Brazil.

<comment><USER3> That's fascinating! Does the book have any insight into how Japan made the complete 180° in I guess a few decades?

The Meiji Restoration was already incredible but I thought the work ethic was there throughout and helped make it possible. I had no idea there was also a revolution of work ethic.

<comment><USER4> Education. The Japanese Empire was one of the first, if not first, nation in the world to have mandatory schooling that was accessible by a large majority of it's population.

They beat the Brits by about a decade.

<comment><USER5> Yep. Mass education (as opposed to high end elite education) can turn a nation of free people into slaves (or, as Japanese call it, 社畜: corporate livestock). After a century of that, they're losing their collective will to live, too [1].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan)

<comment><USER6> So the lesson you learned is that mass education is bad? ...

<comment><USER5> Not mass education as in the abstract concept of "educating the masses", but mass education as its actually practiced.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Richard Feynman on Brazil:

1\. "That evening I went for a walk in town, and came upon a small crowd of people standing around a great big rectangular hole in the road—it had been "dug for sewer pipes, or something—and there, sitting exactly in the hole, was a car. It was marvelous: it fitted absolutely perfectly, with its roof level with the road. The workmen hadn't bothered to put up any signs at the end of the day, and the guy had simply driven into it. I noticed a difference: When we'd dig a hole, there'd be all kinds of detour signs and flashing lights to protect us. There, they dig the hole, and when they're finished for the day, they just leave."

2\. "When I got to the center, we had to decide when I would give my lectures—in the morning, or afternoon. Lattes said, "The students prefer the afternoon." "So let's have them in the afternoon." "But the beach is nice in the afternoon, so why don't you give the lectures in the morning, so you can enjoy the beach in the afternoon." "But you said the students prefer to have them "in the afternoon." "Don't worry about that. Do what's most convenient for you! Enjoy the beach in the afternoon." So I learned how to look at life in a way that's different from the way it is where I come from. First, they weren't in the same hurry that I was. And second, if it's better for you, never mind!"

Excerpt From: Richard Phillips Feynman. "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman": Adventures of a Curious Character."

<comment><USER8> To point #1. That happens still to today. It is a matter of education and resources. Unfortunately, both are low in Brazil.

To point #2. Any guest in Brazil will be treated differently during their visit.

[https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carna...](https://jornalistaheitormenezes.blogspot.com/2015/11/o-carnaval- de-richard-feynman-no-brasil.html) has some interesting historical context about Feynman's trips to Brazil.

<comment><USER9> As to 1, no, it's neither 'education' nor 'lack of resources' really.

It's a matter of conscientiousness and responsibility. Even if there were no signs immediately available, nobody with an ounce of decency would leave a large hole unmarked. Signs are not expensive, if they're not available it's because of a lack of intelligent and responsible acting somewhere else in in the value chain.

As for #2, it's still a lack of conscientiousness. The students should (at least try) to go to their lecture, that the prof should try to give. Surely, a visit to Brazil warrants a quick hop to the beach at minimum but there's no reason people can't do what they are supposed to do all around.

99% of the world's problems would be solved if we all just acted with very basic levels of conscientiousness and responsibility: show up, do the basic work, think a little bit, be nice, don't be corrupt, try to do good work ... commensurate with increasing levels of responsibility obviously, but 'hole diggers' still need to do their jobs with responsibility and a little bit of pride.

<comment><USER10> I love your response because it's a great take-down of the "everything is relative and cultural" argument, which I have always thought comes from an overactive imagination.

When you start to reduce life down to simplistic concepts, everything is not relative and cultural. Sure, maybe on the fringes (.01%) there are situations that are heavily influenced by those. But for most things in life (near or on mazlowe's hierarchy) it is almost like math, or a logic puzzle.

Brazilians don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something entirely logical within their own culture. They leave because they are lazy and do not care for the level of danger it represents to others. To imply otherwise is simply dressing a pig.

<comment><USER11> > They leave because they are lazy...

Probably sounds better in the original German.

These proofs by anecdotes are really fast food for the biased mind.

Just as a thought experiment, if Brazilians are inherently 'lazy' as you say and it has nothing to do with the environment that they are in and its incentives, then are they also lazy abroad? Do they also forget to put signs when they dig holes? Do they do a worse service in restaurants? Do they work less than their coworkers? Are they also consistently late? Is this not the case because they are from a biased sample of non-lazy Brazilians that leave the country? Or maybe Brazilians are not inherently lazy?

Just a few questions for the debate.

<comment><USER10> I don't care if they are Brazilians or Norwegian. If you leave an open hole for someone to fall down you are being negligent.

The whole crux of my argument is to remove the concept of culture from the discussion unless it is absolutely necessary.

Sorry to bow out but I think you are barking up the wrong tree trying to get me to say something unique about Brazil. Human laziness and general awfulness is universal.

<comment><USER11> > I don't care if they are Brazilians or Norwegian. If you leave an open hole > for someone to fall down you are being negligent.

We agree then.

> _Brazilians_ don't leave uncovered holes in the street because of something > entirely logical within their own culture. _They_ leave because they are > lazy...

I guess it is fair to say that your point was quite hard to grasp based on your last sentence, seeing the other comments as well. If you say "Brazilians don't leave uncovered holes because of...", then it seems you are making a point about the whole population in a generalized sense. Therefore "they are lazy" also refer to this generalization.

<comment><USER10> Sorry, I was using Brazilians and "they" in the context of the thread. I was not attempting to make assertions, but carry them through the conversation.

Sorry that it came across that way, and for any offense!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I noticed how this created some tension between Japanese and Brazilians & Peruvians, when I lived in Japan. One Japanese friend, who was a really impressive guy and really "outside the box" for a Japanese person, was even shaken by the difference after a while. It was unsettling to be seated in a meeting and watch people walk in late with HUGE smiles on their faces, greeting everyone. He told me one day, "in the US, like if you're in high school, walking into class late is kind of _kakkoii_, right? But here in Japan, arriving just a little bit early--that is _kakkoii_."

Quite a few of my other Japanese friends made nervous comments when we were waiting for Brazilian friends, or after they'd arrive. "sasugani [so-and-so, the Brazilian] hahahahaha" they'd say, and it was clear that they were annoyed.

After traveling a bit more and studying psychology a bit more, it's clear that the preference really does vary by the individual, even though patterns like those in the article exist within a populace. Some Japanese really don't care when you arrive, and some Brazilians are really timely people. Their personal strengths come from some position along the robotically-scheduled/free- floating continuum. Culturally, maybe they make arrangements to fit in a little better, or maybe they don't and they're just the weirdo. No matter what the preference is, if we can be flexible or tactical about how we use it, we gain some advantages.

</comment><comment><USER13> São Paulo is a city of over 12 million people, the largest city in the southern hemisphere of our planet, and is almost 10% of the Brazilian population. Almost everyone I meet with in SP is on time for work related meetings. I haven't noticed a difference between SP, the UK, the USA, or many of the other places I've worked. Generalizing about an entire country when that generalization is wrong for its biggest city makes for a good headline, but it's not responsible journalism.

<comment><USER14> I am born and raised in Rio de Janeiro, and am very punctual. For business meetings most people don't come up late, but for social gatherings they almost always do. It's frustrating because it seems like I will never learn my lesson and always arrive punctually even if I don't intend to

<comment><USER15> This. People are conflating social mores with business practices.

São Paulo is a much more globalized city than Rio, which is really navel- gazing. (Most families in Rio can trace their ancestry centuries back, while São Paulo is usually the largest $(nationality-descent) population outside $(homecountry). This makes for cultural differences.)

But: it's not like carioca customs bleed over to the workplace any more than, say, West Texan customs do. I mean, at my workplace we wear suits but not ties; whenever in São Paulo we tie up. That's most of it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> In the UK as a native Englishman I would be totally ok with people turning up late to a party/BBQ/whatever. No problem (although not for a dinner party where you need to prepare etc)

But if you agree to _meet_ people at a certain time, then being more than 10-15 minutes late without letting the person know is just rude, selfish and inconsiderate. Sure problems come up - these days there is zero excuse to not let the people know you are going to be late and give them an estimated ETA.

By being deliberately/incompetently late in those scenarios where you've agreed on a time, you're telling the person whose time you are wasting that you value your time more than you value theirs - i.e. that you consider yourself and your time as more important than them, and so _fuck you - I 'll get there when I want_ and you can wait for me since I am the most important one in this meeting and you and your time is worthless...

Are you late because you are just a bit disorganised? Please get a grip make an effort because you're a grown up and the people you are meeting had to make an effort to get there too.

Are you late because you are just an arsehole? Take a long look at yourself in the mirror.

tl;dr - depends on context.

<comment><USER17> I am African and I can say that it depends on your culture.

<comment><USER18> > _it depends on your culture_

It does, and if you're trying to co-ordinate anything with a material number of people, one must recognize it's not a useful cultural aspect to carry forward. Timeliness allows for complex coordination. (It also allows for economic interfacing with the world's advanced economies.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I hope you all remember that Brazil is too big to assume that everyone is the same, thus everyone will be late to all appointments. It happens a lot, yes. But be careful to label people in advance. Many (!) Brazilians work overseas, including in Germany, and I'm sure those are not late as the article suggests for example :)

Also, what would be crazy for many people that live in small countries compared to Brazil, is that many workers live far away from their job or school. Up to 3 hours for a single way. It is also expected to have something not working in their way to their destination.

It's not a black and white thing. Writing a generic bold statement tends always to be harmful. Damn human brain that loves to find patterns to simplify information processing :)

<comment><USER20> People act based on the standards of the places around them.

My example: I'm Portuguese but have lived in Denmark for quite a few years now, in Denmark I'm about as punctual as everyone else around here (which is mostly punctual, not as much as Germans though, who tend to show up before the agreed time) but when I'm visiting down south, I go back to the standard of showing up a little after the agreed time.

In other words: when in Rome do as the Romans do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I don't think this is just a Brazilian thing. When I throw parties in the US _nobody_ shows up until 30 mins after the start time, and the peak of people showing up is between 60 and 90 minutes after start time.

The exception to this is dinner parties, where people are much more punctual because they know you're planning the meal timeline.

<comment><USER22> If there's 20 people going to a party, does anyone think the "start time" is really when you're supposed to be there? I think of it more as "don't come before this time".

<comment><USER23> Depends on the culture. Historically if you told a German 5:00, that meant 5:00 - nor 4:59, not 5:01. "Fashionably late" is an American thing.

<comment><USER22> I just don't understand how this works at a house party.

You invite 20 people over for a BBQ at 2pm. Here's possible conversations I can envision in America:

"Thanks for the invite! I actually have a haircut appointment at 2, but I'll come right after"

or

"Thanks for the invite, but I have a a haircut appointment at 2..." "what? No worries! Come join whenever you can; we want to see you!" "Great. I will thanks!"

So how would it go in Germany?

"Sorry, I am busy and can't make it"

<comment><USER24> This doesn't happen. People are just applying stereotypes to every possible context and situation. Germans are perfectly capable of coming to a BBQ later than the scheduled start time, although it's true that unless it's impossible for them to make their schedule fit with yours, if you tell them 5, then 5 it is.

Because of this, I would say it's even more important to schedule things sufficiently ahead of time. Making up plans only 2 or 3 days in advance, when weekend plans are mostly settled and they can't properly schedule around your event, will just stress people out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> I arrived on time, my hostess was already dressed up, and I made myself useful helping with preparing the food. We had a long time to talk while waiting for the other guests.

A month later, we were dating. A couple years later, we married.

Sometimes being too early is good. :-)

</comment><comment><USER26> For anyone interested in this type of cultural difference, I would strongly recommend Erin Meyer's "The Culture Map" ([https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KSXNFJQ](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KSXNFJQ)), which presents and argues for a series of scales that create a heuristic useful for comparing (not judging!) different cultures.

The goal is to realize and understand the differences so that you can anticipate and cope despite culture gaps.

I've read it myself, had two coworkers read it, and have recommended it to numerous other people who work in multicultural contexts and everyone has found it useful and insightful. It really recalibrated my personal way of looking at the world and people from other cultures.

<comment><USER27> +1 for The Culture Map. I would recommend for both old timers and new comers to multi-national/ multi-cultural workplaces.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> That's not overall in Brazil. I live in Sao Paulo and it's certainly not rude to arrive on time or closer to that time. The time is usually a reference of "arrive after that time" and people will arrive in the hour or two after the time set. Usually closer friends will arrive earlier and not so close friends will arrive late because the party will be already full.

<comment><USER29> I have no idea where the author got the generalization that this is a rule "everywhere in Brazil". It's at most more or less a custom in _Rio_ , and no other places that I know of. In southern Brazil not arriving within half hour of the appointes time is in fact disrespectful

Besides __this is only for social appointments __. Try to arrive a couple hours late for a meeting and you 'll find yourself talking to your boss aboit how this article misled you

<comment><USER30> I used to work in Indonesia, with Indonesian clients. Scheduling a meeting for 10 AM and not having anybody show up until 11 was normal; showing up _four hours late_ and shrugging it off with _" macet"_ (traffic) was not unusual. (Then again, Jakarta jams really _can_ be that bad.)

They have a word for it too: _jam karet_ , or "rubber time".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Brazil is a huge country and and saying Brazilians are always late is like saying all North Americans are ignorant of non-local history and cultures.

I have a profound respect for other people's time and demand the same respect for mine. This is not uncommon in Sao Paulo city.

<comment><USER14> Same here, and I live in Rio.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> As a Brazilian myself, I hate this. People are not late to work related stuff, but on a social setting this is ridiculous! I'm very punctual in everything that I do and always get to events on time. I hate the fact that being late is considered "cultural" and not a huge middle finger to other people's time.

<comment><USER33> I was surprised to find that in Sweden, it's very similar to Brazil: people never come to parties on time. A delay of 30 minutes to 1.5 hours is about right. So, it's not just a "poor" country thing, I think.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> > I used to have a boss that would call us from home saying he was caught in > traffic but would be there soon, but we could actually hear his shower > running!

Wait but that's not just being "oh look how cool and laid-back we are here", that's just lying. He's not caught in unexpected traffic, he's just running late.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems objectively worse than agreeing to a time and then being there. With this system, you agree to a time and then have to know unspoken rules. Why not just speak the rules? Because then we're back to the "not so relaxed" actual time. But unspoken rules will always catch some people by surprise, either because they are not from the region, their family has different practices, whatever, but it will mess things up sooner or later. I can't imagine hospitals, courts, or other vital components of society are happy with the attitude, either, and while it says that people try to be on time for business meetings (I assume one's surgery would fall in the same category), I imagine that some of the attitude still shows and things are less efficient because of it. I wonder if this system will still hold up when the country develops further.

<comment><USER5> More laid-back countries are also more laid-back about "lying" about such a thing.

It's just a polite way to say you're running late. Nobody cares whether it's actually the traffic or not. It's like saying to someone "you look nice in this shirt" when they don't.

<comment><USER34> > Nobody cares whether it's actually the traffic or not.

Not sure if that's just a Dutch thing, but I would care as to why someone is late. There isn't an accident on the same road every day, so traffic can be a legit reason to be late; having forgotten to set an alarm clock, however, is totally someone's own fault (under normal circumstances, of course).

<comment><USER5> Yeah, but more laid-back cultures (time-wise) don't care much about assigning fault.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I work with brazillians often, we have an office there. It's easy to accommodate as well -- I just do the same thing I do with my mother: tell her the start time is way earlier than it actually is, and then she is on time. For example if dinner is at 6:45, I tell her dinner is at 6:15, and expect her to arrive 30 minutes late.

You have to tweak it a bit for different situations (for example, a meeting, is about -15, a conference call, -10, but an after work event is roughly -30 to -60, but works well.

<comment><USER29> I'm not accusng you of lying but this story is extremely suspicious. It conflicts completely with my professional and personal experience, which I'm pretty sure is close to the general truth.

Unless you have found yourself working with a very peculiar group of people, you are being duped or just exaggerating to the point of being outright wrong.

It is absolutely not a custom anywhere in Brazil, not even in Rio, to be late (_at all_) for professional appointments.

_Especially_ systematically late that a "system" like that is put in place (and supposedly works). To be blunt, the idea that you could correct such behavior from professional adults by duping them with altered schedules is even childish.

If this is indeed the case, please post the name of the company so we can blacklist everyone that works in that office

<comment><USER36> It really depends on the industry, I guess.

My observation, being born and having lived in Brazil for my whole life, is that there's a power/authority/seniority dynamic involved, too: If you have a meeting with a customer, you should be on time, but it's okay for them to be late. When meeting with your boss, they'll probably be late, but you probably shouldn't be. Internal meetings within the company usually start later than meetings with other companies. Once you know people professionally for a longer time, you'll also be more comfortable arriving later.

<comment><USER37> There's definitely a dominance element here in Mexico, too.

My Mexican friend traveled a lot here for work to meet with various executives. These executives would be the ones who set the time.

She'd drive four hours and arrive at their office for a 8am 1-on-1 meeting and be directed to a sofa outside their room. She told me often 30+ minutes would pass and the guy would be in there twiddling on his smartphone, she could see him right through the blinds.

It was like some proof of time-burn to remind you that they had the power.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Similarly to Feynman's quote on the hole dug in the road, in South Africa, it is also common to simply leave a construction site.

However, the comment that I want to make relates more to how South Africans are often late and why the reasons are _different_ to Brazillians.

In South African English there exists a word "now now". This was adopted from Afrikaans, which is largely based on Dutch. The existence of this word is probably due to something that is true of the larger continent and relates to _African time_. In my words: time does not pass uniformly, rather it passes with events, such as rain, sunset or the latest regime change.

In any case, what "now now" means is either: in a short while, in a (not so short) while, now; or even, a short while ago. The English, as usual, only had one part of the story. In fact, in the original Afrikaans, there exists multiple variations of this term that all have closely related meanings: "net- nou", "nou-nou", "net-net" and "nou-net".

A shrewd observer would notice that we covered all four combinations diligently. The first two terms are almost identical in meaning and correspond loosely to "now now", the second means "by a small margin" and the last refers to "a short while ago" (thankfully, it is always in the past). Moreover, when used in isolation, "nou" can either mean "right now" or "in a (short) while", although you can expect a long wait if someone says that to you.

<comment><USER39> For comparison, the Dutch "nou" means "now" as what it means in English - right now. "net" means "just", so "nou net" means "just now", or a short while ago.

<comment><USER38> This [1] wikipedia page also makes reference of "net-nou" and "nou-nou".

So too does this [2] article, although "nou-nou" certainly is sometimes used to refer to the past tense. I personally use "net-nou" to especially to refer to the future tense, so I am not sure whether the article's comments are historically more correct (i.e. that "nou-nou" should be future and "net-nou" should be past tense).

What I can say is that, in context, the words do seem to have different emotional value.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_diaspora_in_Africa#Lan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_diaspora_in_Africa#Language) [2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_African_slang_wo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_African_slang_words#N%E2%80%93Z)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER40> I am Brazilian but I really appreciate punctuality, to the point of walking away from a date because she was 15 min late. I have friends that are more or less punctual, and others that are always late.

One characteristic of the latter is, they can't say "no" to anyone. Generally they get late because someone else asked them a favor or to do something "urgent". This trait affects them in many other areas of life as well: overpromising, overcommitting, etc.

</comment><comment><USER41> I can at least vouch for the fact that Cariocas have a tough time adjusting to normal Anglo punctuality demands. As a Portuguese speaking student I ended up with quite a few Brazilian friends and many of the Cariocas ended up flunking out of school. Not because they were dumb or didn't work hard, but because they couldn't show up on time for tests and never understood why they couldn't just take a test two hours late.

<comment><USER42> >not dumb >never understood why they couldn't just take a test two hours late.

I see a contradiction here.

<comment><USER43> It's a cultural thing. If that's the way the world has always worked for you, wouldn't it be surprising, at least for a while, to see that other people do things differently?

<comment><USER44> No it wouldn't be surprising for even a moment. When I travel to foreign countries I try to be a good guest and follow the local standards of behavior as best I can. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Having worked in London I appreciate this article being on the BBC. At least in the company I was employed people tended to be late to meetings as standard (10-30min) with the usual tube/traffic excuse....every week as thought this caught them by surprise each time.

It became a problem with meeting rooms being booked but empty so you would use and then get kicked out 20min past the booked time as the people turned up. The company eventually brought a rule if you were not in a room within 15min of the booking start time you lost it to avoid this problem.

I think some people in this enviroment would play to it as 'I'm so busy & important' but I always felt it was such a economic cost to the company having a bunch of people sitting there making small talk while someone was delayed.

</comment><comment><USER46> This is pretty interesting. I am from India & you can observe something similar in India with a lot of people not all. We are not the most anal about being on time & most meetings never start on time. Parties or group dinners will never ever start on time. There is this thing called "Indian Stretchable Time", a funny variation on IST. I always wonder how much of this has to do with our cultural concept of time. As per Indian mythology, time is not linear but circular, there is a cycle of birth & death till you attain moksh (salvation). The other thing I notice vs. west is that people in Indian offices chat with coworkers a lot more.

<comment><USER47> Adding to Indian mythological perspective, It views life in infinite terms. You are living in only one of the infinite number of life so why do you have to be in hurry?. Against western view of life as only one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I'm from a Mediterranean country and it's customary to be 30 min to an hour late to parties. Distant acquintances and people that don't really feel like going will arrive close to 2 hours late. I thought this was the norm in the Western world. Is it not? Do folks in the English-speaking world arrive on the minute?

<comment><USER43> Not to the minute, but yes, most people usually show up within a fifteen minutes in either direction.

<comment><USER49> Don't do this in France. It's considered "polite" to arrive ~30minute late if you're invited, however, if you arrive early, you will be asked to help while the host/hostess take his/her last minute shower. I don't mind and i like being early, because the most meaningfull discussion are made there, but non- Latin foreigners can have some troubles to adjust.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> If any appointment is set to start at 7pm, I'm there at 7pm sharp or otherwise inform the host in advance that I'm arriving late and give an accurate estimate on when I will arrive (+-5 min). I find anything else disrespectful towards the host and, depending on the kind of appointment, towards the rest of the participants.

I guess some stereotypes on Germans are true after all...

<comment><USER51> There's a scene in a Homeland's episode.

"Hey you are X mins late. This is Germany man!"

I thought it was a bit too expositional IMHO.

And of course this was set in a sex shop.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> In South Africa we have a similar concept of time, 'now' means in 15 minutes to a half hour, 'now now' can mean anything from 15 minutes to 3 hours, 'just now' can mean anything from a few hours to a few days. A meeting scheduled for 12 will unlikely have anyone in the room at 12. In contrast to our Swiss business partners where a meeting at 12 will start within 15 seconds of 12 - I've learnt to keep a calendar with reminders since working with the Swiss.

Arriving within the first hour of a party start time means you are volunteering to prepare food, make a fire and move chairs. Never go hungry to a braai (barbecue) as lunch will be eaten at 6pm and dinner around midnight!

</comment><comment><USER53> While everyone here says it's a cultural difference between Brazilians and, for example, Germans, please let me express a different viewpoint.

To me it seems the reason Brazilians (and others, for example, Greeks, Indians, Italians etc) are not very punctual is the weather conditions.

The weather conditions, which are more relaxed in these countries, have allowed people to form a culture where they can be more relaxed in their social life.

On the other hand, in places where weather conditions are more difficult to tackle, for example colder, being punctual, being direct etc saves all the involved parties a lot of effort in communication and co-operation.

<comment><USER54> Also in Portugal. my boss used to say "I'll start scheduling meetings 15min later so everyone shows at same time."

We are also less strict on leaving time, compared with Germany, or UK.

</comment></comment><comment><USER55> In my experience, this particular generalization is almost always correct.

The many excuses as lack of reliable transportation does not really apply because I see the same behavior when Brazilians are in countries that have said infrastructure.

To be on time is a developed skill and as I Brazilian myself I surely had to develop that skill late in life. However being on time among Brazilians costed me dearly. I had many problems, fights, and arguments because I expect some degree of punctuality of others Brazilians. I have countless personal accounts of that. For someone not used to it, let me quantify it: I'm talking lateness from 30 minutes to 4 hours.

The root cause is that lateness is highly tolerated in Brazil, and is inherently contagious. If someone is always 10 minutes late to an appointment, someone else, who values their own time, will be not less than 10 minutes late. Next one will be not less than that, incrementally, each more late than the other. The more people, the worst, and we are more than 200 millions.

For people who think that being late is not a big deal, imagine being 10 minutes late for a meeting with 6 other people. That's 6 times 10 minutes, 60 minutes of people's time waiting you. Wasted time. Then there is the time lost due context switching, pinging you to see where you are, and being late to other appointments. It's disrespectful and selfish to be late. You are showing that you care only about yourself and not about other people's time.

Yes, I know that anyone can be late, but please without false symmetries. It's an endemic problem among Brazilians and we need to fix it. Please, if you know you have this problem, stop making excuses and do something about it. Buy a watch, use Google Calendar, it's not even that hard.

</comment><comment><USER56> Brazil is a huge country though and while I also always believed the stereotype of the laid back, beach-going, bossa nova listening Brazilian, I found it is not at all universal. São Paulo, for example, feels as hurried as a major city like London or New York, complete with high-pressure business culture, overcrowded public transport, killer traffic etc.

<comment><USER57> "São Paulo, for example, feels as hurried as a major city like London or New York, complete with high-pressure business culture, overcrowded public transport, killer traffic etc."

So the measuerment of being reliable is the stress factor in the city? How sad.

I really like reliability .. to lower stress. And hurry only, if needed, not as default.

<comment><USER8> Yeah predictability and reliability can give a sense of comfort but in a big city there are so many variables out one's control that it is easy to let things be and live life on its own terms sometimes.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> My girlfriend was born and raised in Brazil. If I had a nickle of every time she is late, I swear, I'd be sipping margaritas on a beach.

</comment><comment><USER59> I recently immigrated to Germany and have since become close friends with a Brazilian expat.

Within our first few weeks, we made plans to meet with some of our new German friends at 9 o'clock. By 9:10 both of our phones were flooded with messages asking where we were. We of course had not even left our houses yet.

The differences in culture when it comes to social settings and punctuality are very real.

</comment><comment><USER60> Since this is all anecdotes anyway I'll post mine. I was working in Brazil and even though our main office was in Sao Paulo we were interviewing for our Rio branch. Of the 12 candidates we were expecting only 2 showed up, both late due to traffic. The other 10 just never showed up. Their excuses varied but people around the office shrugged the phenomenon as expected due to the early time of the interview and the fact that it "deu praia" meaning it was sunny and they probably just went to the beach instead.

It was a bit mind boggling to me since I was used to the behavior in Sao Paulo where delays were possible but usually not common and no shows were rare.

</comment><comment><USER61> Reminds me a lot of Thailand. We call it "Thai time". And it does seem to be worse in Bangkok than in rural areas. Despite the terrible traffic and resulting delays, Bangkokians are used setting out for a party at the time the party is supposed to start, thus arriving an hour or more late.

<comment><USER62> That's funny, around Tahoe we call it "Tahoe time". It's really normal for people to be late here. It's not taken as personally as other areas I've lived in. It's something about that lake..

<comment><USER12> There are a lot of these and they usually do seem to fit the groups/locations/corporations in question. I've heard Mexicans refer to "Mexican time," and I've heard Mormons refer to "Mormon time," and various corporations also have equivalent terms.

Amusingly, a lot of these terms seem to have their origin in people who were really annoyed by the phenomena.

<comment><USER63> In India we call it "Indian time'. Nobody is expected to arrive at a party venue before 1 hour past the announced time.

<comment><USER64> Does everyone state times an hour earlier than they want to correct for this rule? Is this just time for the party's hosts to perform a certain function? ( Punctuality is heavily engrained in me, and I can't understand the point of a time if its to be disregarded as a matter of policy )

<comment><USER63> > Does everyone state times an hour earlier than they want to correct for this > rule?

Certainly seems like that to me. I've arrived at wedding functions at the exact time mentioned in the invite and even the hosts weren't present. I had to wait 30 min for them to show up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> Also common in Indonesia, its called "rubber time".

Ive grown to like it! Your never in a rush, don't have to worry too much about unforeseen traffic. You can arrive late to meetings that tend to drag but can start without you.

Maybe we take timeliness too seriously.

</comment><comment><USER66> I feel the same way even though I'm not Brazilian. If someone arrives early or right on time, I feel annoyed about having to entertain while I finish setting up or getting myself ready.

I appreciate it when people arrive 15-45min after the party start time.

<comment><USER67> So you're late... To your own party... :)

<comment><USER8> better late than never. Yes, I know people who didn't make to their birthday party. Surprise! Oh no..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> As a Brazilian living in the UK, I have to say that this is pure bullshit.

First of all, the author makes the (very common and disconcerting) mistake of thinking cariocas represent Brazilians in general. Cariocas have their own way of life and it's very unfortunate for our image that they are the ones most foreigners think of when they think of the stereotypical Brazilian (there isn't one).

I can't speak for the whole continental-sized country or the whole of its 200+ million population but in the south it's definitely not rude to be on time. It might not be the norm but it's absolutely acceptable. I usually try to be 10-30 minutes later than scheduled but mostly because I'm slightly socially awkward and don't like to be the first one in.

On the other hand, a few months ago I went to my (British) friend's party in London. I was a bit distressed as I was about 45 minutes late. When I rang the bell I was greeted by my friend with a warm welcome and the news that I was the first guest in.

BBC can take their preconceptions and stereotypes elsewhere. Or at least make it clear in the title that they're talking about a VERY SMALL percentage of the population of the country.

</comment><comment><USER69> This would definitely drive me crazy. I have a couple of American friends who are like this and it's really hard for me to not get angry when they are 45 minutes late to something.

I honestly do not give a shit what time someone shows up to a social function as long as they say an accurate time.

If you want to meet at 8, then lets meet at 8, but if you say 8 and then don't show up til 9, what the hell.

</comment><comment><USER70> This reminds me of Malaysia, the country I grew up in. There's a thing called Malaysian timing, where people will be consistently late for at least 30mins to any meeting (both personal and work events). Sometimes, the "on my way" reply is basically them still at home laying down on their bed. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

</comment><comment><USER8> This little book "Diversity Map" has a better view on cultural differences, time management being one of them.

Nevertheless, I grew up in Brazil but never agreed with lateness. I found not necessarily a sign of being sloppy but rather disrespectful with the others. However, I can understand why, specially in Rio where the public and private service can't deliver service with punctuality, it is impossible to manage time properly.

</comment><comment><USER15> Rio is known for its culture of ambiguity.

Another classic is "let's get together sometimes" (which means "dude, I totally don't hate you so let's be on each other's background social circle but never get together sometimes"). And its friendlier varient "come by my home sometimes to visit". (Don't go. It means they like you, but just don't show up unannounced).

Everyone is on about how São Paulo is much more businesslike than Rio (it is, but the ambiguous social norms of Rio don't bleed over the worlplace that much), but I think the main difference is how these cultures treat friendship.

In São Paulo friendship is very binary. People are strangers and sort of hostile by default, but once you make into their friend circle you might as well be family. Cariocas are friendly in a broad general fashion but have very very few true friends you can count on, visit unannounced, ask for help moving, etc.

This accounts for a lot of social customs re: parties and such. Cariocas are just more fluid.

<comment><USER71> Have you ever heard of the coconut vs peach theory?

[https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut- cultures/](https://x-culture.org/peach-vs-coconut-cultures/)

Seems like cariocas are peach and paulistas (people from São Paulo) are coconut.

<comment><USER15> It's a good metaphor.

It's interesting that they would characterize Americans (at least those of an "international" style that study abroad or socialize with Brazilians) as peaches, though. My first impression with an American is typically "this is a very very honest person that will hold me to a high standard".

This is maybe where the coconuts/peaches idea breaks: you can be someone who is "open" in the sense of having a Bayesian prior that people are generally good; but also be very quick to change their minds (unforgiving) and very literal (which is a kind of reactionary take on the ambiguity of superficial relationships).

So the spectrum I want to draw is more like ambivalence-judgementalness. (I want to keep ranting about Joao Gilberto vs. Chet Baker as jazz-pop singers and how one uses dissonant x/9/11/13 chords as a way to open up interpretation on the underlying basic harmonic structure while the other uses the same extended chord-color palette to create smoother but definite harmonic structures.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> Huh, at least here where I live (somewhere in western Europe), there's an unwritten rule to generally not arrive at the announced time for parties. If it starts at 7, first people will start showing up maybe around 8.

Maybe this has to do with not wanting to arrive at a party that's still empty.

</comment><comment><USER73> As a Brazilian, don't take this as a reliable source of information.

Where I was raised, "Estou chegando" (I'm arriving) means exactly that. Arriving late is kind of expected in parties/bbqs but not at work, meetings, appointments etc.

As for Rio culture, no idea since I've never been there.

<comment><USER74> I lived in Rio and regularly heard people saying "Estou chegando " while drinking a beer and ordering another one. It was disturbing at first but then I got used to it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> At least we know author is vegetarian, it was critically important for us to know.

</comment><comment><USER76> Just to add onto the cavalcade of other anecdotes ... can confirm that there is a similar "cuban time", having grown up in Miami. No one is on time, much to the chagrin of my very-caucasian wife :)

</comment><comment><USER77> It is not only in Brazil. There are some kind of parties that requires lots of preparation by the host and does not have a strict event that requires everyone to be there at the same time. Cocktail parties for example, or barbecues in most of the world. The author of the article is just showing 1) lack of manners with the host, 2) lack of culture by not understanding what a barbecue party is, 3) bigotry towards brazilians.

Host a feijoada in Rio and you can be sure all your friends will be there on time for the meal.

</comment><comment><USER78> It's a cultural reality. Rather than get annoyed (which I used to do) I've just learned to pad times.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is part of the cause is also that Brazilians are more "in the moment" with whoever they are currently with. It's ok (expected) that you may be late for a future meeting because you never want to be rude or short with the people that you're currently with.

This is also why many non-Brazilian politicians are perpetually late.

</comment><comment><USER79> I find that being late to things acknowledges the reality that meetings and commutes can have unexpected delays and run over.

Being honest about it sets people's expectations better. And you have to tolerate it from others as well.

It also correlates with higher creativity and success:

[https://www.mydomaine.com/running-late- creativity](https://www.mydomaine.com/running-late-creativity)

</comment><comment><USER80> Who shows up to a house party on time?

In London, I know very few parties that would really get started less than an hour after the publicised start time.

</comment><comment><USER81> The article focuses in Brazil where indeed this is normal in Latin America. There are pattern variations but punctuality is not the norm. That said, doing business people adapt and are more formal. As a Latin American business owner I expect perfect punctuality but accept excuses if I am notified before the event.

</comment><comment><USER82> As a Carioca, my pet theory is that we are always late due to the lack of a decent public transport, specially trains. British trains are famous for being on time to the minute. Brazil is a really unequal society, public transport is really for the poor and terrible.

<comment><USER83> Visiting Sao Paulo I found the trains to be reliable, clean, timely, and used by all segments of society except I assume the super-rich who have someone drive them.

One thing that struck me about Brazil compared to the U.S. is the huge number of people standing around doing nothing. You will never see that in the U.S.: if someone is loitering here, they are a teenager or homeless. But it was huge in Brazil. I am assuming this is because of the extreme unemployment and lack of opportunity.

Unfortunately, seeing so much despondency is likely to affect everyone in the society. You tend to change your outlook on things. I have heard there is an "everyone does it" attitude with regard to paying bribes, stealing services like electricity, etc. This also drags down society.

My wife is Brazilian and she is a very timely person, living in the U.S. Partly due to acculturation but also because of the "I wasn't born here but got here as fast as I could" effect.

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> It's kind of neat that if the party starts at 6pm, you (the guests) could take that to mean that is the time you should start getting ready. In this way, you, the hosts, and the other guests will actually all be on the same schedule really.

</comment><comment><USER85> Truly absurd generalizations about a vast and complex country. You'd have thought we'd outgrown this sort of crass writing about other countries when we exited the nineteenth century.

<comment><USER86> Not sure why you're getting downvoted but I'm with you.

Screw this subtle racism.

Being someone who was born in a country with far from ideal stereotypes is not fun, specially those related to work ethic which are potentially harmful should you want to make a career abroad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER87> Brazilians love to pretend they "relaxed" but they're the most uptight people. If you don't follow their cultural rules to a T they get all weird and upset.

</comment><comment><USER88> The closer you are to the organizers, the earlier you can show up. But you should probably be helping with party arrangements. Same with staying late.

</comment><comment><USER89> > In Brazil, it is considered rude to be on time to a party

This is a lie.

</comment><comment><USER90> I always struggle with these generalizations. People take them too literally. I don't think this is racist or belittling, it's just the impression of the author. I also think these generalizations are possible, because culture imposes norms and expectations on the individual. And different cultures emphasise different things. This is something beautiful and makes the world worth exploring.

But you to keep in mind that generalizations about the cultural influence on certain behaviours say nothing about the individual and not even a group of indivuals. There are probably a lot of punctual, hard working brazilians in rio de jainero. I think that's the line that racist ideas like to cross.

TLDR: I like the piece, but I struggle with the title.

</comment><comment><USER91> So how does that work with say doctors appointments?

<comment><USER92> Same as in the US. Your appointment won't be on time and you will have to wait.

<comment><USER91> >Same as in the US. Your appointment won't be on time and you will have to wait.

Not all countries. I got last slot recently...knew he's 15mins behind so went for a stroll. Showed up 5 late and got flak for being late (he caught up in last session so was back on track)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER93> Who turns up to a party on time in the US?

</comment><comment><USER94> The only few countries where people adhered to the clock like religion were UK, Germany, Japan.

The few countries where people did not give a shit were Italy and Brazil, with Italy being the worst. When they mean noon, they really mean late after noon.

</comment><comment><USER95> Anecdotally I find that some of the most successful people I know are chronically late, but I'm not sure if they are late because they are successful or successful because they are always late. I'd wager it probably has to do with whatever your _reason_ for being late is. Being late because you are trying to maximize productive time is different from being late due to carelessness or procrastination.

<comment><USER96> Anecdotally I have found the exact opposite. The most successful people I know value their time and consequently value other people's time as well, so they are always on time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER97> This is racism and it's not allowed on HN.

<comment><USER98> It is about culture, which is a real thing.

Racism would mean there are races in humankind, which is mostly found to be untrue.

<comment><USER99> The implication of what you're saying is that there is no such thing as racism...</comment></comment></comment>


How to build an RSS Reader? - <AUTHOR>

Hello there, I need a help.
I want to build an RSS reader (or shall I call as RSS feed engine) to learn how it works.
This purely for educational purposes.
I tried looking around the web and honestly could not found much material on the topic. In a nutshell, think of that I want to build something like feedly or Google Reader.
I do not get resources on how to build one. The closest I could get it
- http://rss.softwaregarden.com/aboutrss.html - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_syndication - http://www.whatisrss.com/
Could someone please guide me in this effort? <comment><USER2> * Make a list of website rss feeds

* Retrieve the rss feeds from the websites

* Parse the rss feeds into a displayable format</comment>