Silicon Valley's Secretive, Orgiastic Side - <AUTHOR> https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/01/brotopia-silicon-valley-secretive-orgiastic-inner-sanctum <comment><USER3> What's up with all these sensational articles about Silicon Valley? Maybe the lifestyle is different as a VC, but as an engineer, this seems so disjointed from reality that it's almost farcical. I can barely get some of my coworkers to stop talking about code for more than a breath. There's no way that they're engaging in any of these activities.

Can anyone vouch for this behavior being prevalent? To me it just seems like a result of psychology where people think that others have more interesting/fulfilled social lives than they do despite it not being actually true, but maybe I live under a rock.

Furthermore, there are a ton of small VCs and startups in the valley. Of course a small percentage will do sketchy stuff. This is true everywhere and would really only be a problem if it was widespread or common amongst the major players and served as a meaningful barrier to entry. The only firm mentioned by name, Binary Capital, looks like a two or a one person shop, and I assume doesn't have much market power.

<comment><USER4> There is a sex/BDSM/cuddle party scene at a lower economic level, but that's a pre-existing part of Bay Area culture; the roots are more in the gay Leathermen/Folsom Street culture, and the hippie/tantra 60s counterculture, than in rich VCs. There is increasing techie representation in that subculture (mostly engineers), but that's because _every_ Bay Area subculture that's open to the middle class has a lot of techies these days.

Of course, this scene tends to be explicitly feminist, disproportionately queer/trans, and anti-classist (public events tend to have sliding-scale prices and opportunities to volunteer for free admission). I didn't read the article in detail, but a lot of the bits and pieces sound like an upper-class, MUCH more heteronormative, more patriarchal attempt to reproduce those experiences. (e.g. explicitly gender-differentiated rules, which tend to create a mentality of men chasing sex and women giving it.)

<comment><USER5> I'm glad you brought this up, because I think it's important to emphasize just how different and disconnected these scenes are, so that one doesn't get swept up in coverage of the other. Especially as the elites making up the one described in the linked article are contributing toward pushing out the existing queer/kink scene (eg. through loss of venues to gentrification). And the latter culture, as I know it, is far, far more concerned with consent and equity than you'll generally find in straight/vanilla spaces, tying back into decades-long histories of actual liberatory struggle.

<comment><USER6> _And the latter culture, as I know it, is far, far more concerned with consent and equity than you 'll generally find in straight/vanilla spaces, tying back into decades-long histories of actual liberatory struggle._

I've been to two cuddle parties. They are _very_ concerned with consent, and I have to say that their facilitation is very well thought out. I don't think I'd put them in the same general category as other parties mentioned here, which I'd call a "bacchanal." For some attendees, it's a cross between a party and a form of group therapy.

<comment><USER4> Yeah, I definitely agree - and in terms of the people involved they have a lot of overlap with the kink scene, though they do tend to be a more straight and cis subset.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This sounds like something out of Eyes Wide Shut, but with social awkwardness, baggy dad jeans, and crocs and socks.

I can't imagine this is emotionally healthy for most of the folks involved. The once socially-exiled men trading wealth and drugs and (implicit) promises of career advancement for sex. The women who hope to leverage their looks for access to a better life, but risk ruining their reputations due to societal double standards. Being aware of these facts, would either party feel good about the encounters?

Orgies are fine. I've never been to one and have no desire to go to one. The real issue here is the power-asymmetry between the men and women involved. It reminds me of someone like Harvey Weinstein inviting an aspiring actress up to his hotel room and making an advance. It puts the women in a damned-if-you-do- damned-if-you-don't situation. Just extending the invitation itself can be vaguely threatening to a lot of people.

<comment><USER6> _This sounds like something out of Eyes Wide Shut, but with social awkwardness, baggy dad jeans, and crocs and socks..._

 _Orgies are fine. I 've never been to one and have no desire to go to one. The real issue here is the power-asymmetry between the men and women involved_

Heck, there are low-rent "eyes wide shut" style events in Houston which are distinctly lower middle class. Glowing bracelets to color code your availability. Mud-wrestling scale large amounts of home formulated glycerin lubricant. Not a VC in sight, not a whiff of money and power. Just a whole lot of ex-employees of ISPs and assorted lower middle class nerd/weirdo friends. One of the parties I know of is lesbians only. Another one of them is yearly and run by a woman in an open marriage.

There are only two things in the Bay Area I know of that might fall vaguely into this sensational category. One of them was some kind of brunch with a live sex show. (The other: furries, and I don't know much more than that and I don't want to know!)

People have been doing one variation or another of this bacchanal stuff since time immemorial. It's "Honest" John the Fox and Gideon the Cat from Pinocchio offering you the tickets to Pleasure Island. There's much better one can do with the strength of one's body, mind, and passions than that nonsense. For those of you still in your teens and early 20's -- it's your job to make it past your youth with your honor, your mind, and your optimism intact.

<comment><USER4> My honor, mind, and optimism are surviving the sex parties of the poly and BDSM scene just fine, _thank_ you very much.

<comment><USER6> _My honor, mind, and optimism are surviving the sex parties of the poly and BDSM scene just fine, thank you very much._

Thank you for that. I dated a poly woman at one point. Not all parties are the same. From my experience, there is a definite rationality and morality associated with the poly scene which is based on consent. I'm not saying that pleasure is bad. Nihilistic pleasure without regard to anything else is pessimistic and simply doesn't lead to good things in the long run. Even Orthodox Jewish teaching recognizes certain kinds of sexual pleasure as a mitzvah. (In fact, sex has been shown by researchers to encourage neurogenesis. One grows more brain when one has good sex.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is a nothing burger of an article. It's about consensual drug use and sex among adults. It happens to involve rich and powerful people who (gasp) can throw these kinds of parties. In any unequal society, there will be people who are willing to trade sex for financial security or access to power, with others who are seeking sex. It would be deeply naive to think otherwise. The outrage here strikes me as hollow.

<comment><USER9> I don't think that's quite fair. The article reads to me like a good-faith attempt to explore some less obvious aspects of these dynamics. It doesn't arrive at new or substantive conclusions, but just standing in the neighborhood of these questions while keeping an open mind is worth something while society is in transition about them.

The article also manages to stay more neutral and non-judgmental than the lurid material would easily allow, and that deserves respect too. Overall, it's better than the median for the genre.

<comment><USER8> You're right, I should have toned down the first sentence a little bit. I hope that young women working in Silicon Valley will read this article and make better decisions for themselves. Each new generation has to learn the ways of the world all over again. But some of them will read this article and make exactly the same decisions, because there are reasons why these parties are thrown and why people, with their eyes open, attend.

What I was trying to say was: The article is overblown in its tone, and that's important for reasons I'll get to at the end.

There are other, much worse things going on in the world, some of which Emily Chang has admirably broken as news.[1] It probably would have worked better if the orgy angle had been woven into a chapter of The Circle. I don't find much in it that surprises me. And given its lack of concrete details, it doesn't strike me as particularly newsworthy. I try to read things that I hope will surprise me and that I might learn from. This book chapter tells me that rich, powerful people behave in Silicon Valley much as they do in other parts of the world (Wall Street, for example), and much as they have done in other times (the Marquis de Sade's books are one example among many).

Personally, I don't find the article to be neutral or non-judgmental. Quite the opposite. It is part of a book titled "Brotopia", and it advances a thesis that Silicon Valley is dominated by emotionally immature or egotistical men who use their relative wealth and power to prey on young women. These sex parties are cast as part of a gender war with two sides: straight males vs straight females. That's a vast oversimplification, making a lot of noise about a very small sample of the humans who constitute the tech community. The only reason why this doesn't fall into the cateogory of "things we can assume happen weekly" is that it's Silicon Valley.

I could name at least one powerful lesbian in tech who left her wife to shack up with a female employee. I'm quite positive that some gay men in tech find opportunities to prey on male interns just as much as the revanchist straight male geeks in the article manage to live out their adolescent fantasies by acting like players. But neither of those fit the direction of Emily Chang's outrage (which is also the dominant direction of outrage in liberal circles). That tells me either that Chang is not reporting this story as diligently as she could, or that she's ignoring significant information to advance a point in this debate. The villain's role has been cast.

Emily Chang is a professional journalist, and she knows how to maintain a journalist's neutral tone while letting her sources drive home her point. If you look at the most emotionally powerful quotes (take that of Elisabeth Sheff, for example [2]) or language like "sport fucking", you can tell which side Chang is on. She's portraying the males here as powerful, predatory and ridiculous all at once:

"Furthermore, these elite founders, C.E.O.'s, and V.C.'s see themselves as more influential than most hot-shit bankers, actors, and athletes will ever be."

All the voices in the piece are Chang's, because she selected them to tell this story, which is a very particular story out of all the threads she could pick. And those voices land heavily in the judging camp.

She lets Founder X make a fool of himself between double quotes, just as she did with Tom Perkins. Is Founder X a fool? Probably. Is he typical of male entrepreneurs? Not in my experience. Did he think he was speaking to a sympathetic ear? Probably. That's how journalists get people to say embarrassing things. They use their sources, just like their sources use them to gain publicity. Just like the men and women at these orgies are using each other. And that's a fundamental part of human interactions that she sounds really judgey about.[3]

My chief concern is that this article is part of a prurient and puritanical movement to police sexuality in America, a movement that has gone far beyond condemning acts of coercion or workplace sexual harassment (both of which I, too, condemn), and drifted into condemning the gray area of fluid power dynamics juxtaposed with consent.

Masha Gessen has talked about it more articulately than I can:

[https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/when-does-a- wa...](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/when-does-a-watershed- become-a-sex-panic)

[https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/sex-consent- da...](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/sex-consent-dangers-of- misplaced-scale)

If we become too easily outraged and rigid in the way we judge sexual behavior publicly, we will simply become a society of hypocrites and rule breakers who can't talk about or understand real humans. A lot of things already can't be discussed calmly -- eppur si muove, as the man said.

Good journalism pushes us to look at things in new ways that deepen our understanding of the world. This article didn't do that for me.

[1] [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/uber- inve...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-01/uber-investor- shervin-pishevar-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-multiple-women)

[2] "That's exploitation. That's old-school, fucked-up masculine arrogance and borderline prostitution," she said. "The men don't have to prostitute themselves, because they have the money. . . . 'I should be able to have sex with a woman because I'm a rich guy.' That is not even one particle progressive; that is the same tired bullshit. It's trying to blend the new and keeping the old attitudes, and those old attitudes are based in patriarchy, so they come at the expense of women."

[3] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbN8jqDhHO8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbN8jqDhHO8)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> There's a lot in this article that raises red flags for me, but more about the journalism then the subject. There's an element of sensationalism implying that this is a 'side' of Silicon Valley without offering evidence of prevalence.

> ... Founder X told me.

The things here on the record are by those who aren't involved, those who are involved speaking on the record do so anonymously. It really seems less that this is a 'side' of Silicon Valley but more that there is a small number of people engaged in the activity.

Further drawing into question the author's credibility...

>Managing directors at top-tier investment banks may pocket a million a year and be worth tens of millions after a long career.

Principals at mid-tier firms can make a couple million per year. A million dollar _quarterly_ bonus for a fund manager isn't absurd. Henry Paulson took the Treasury Secretary job because it gave him a tax-free sale of his $500M worth of equities after being a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs.

Those at VC funds may have more influence socially because they hold purse strings, but banking is the 'traditional' way to make too much money. I'm really having a hard time not thinking that the entire article is exaggerated.

<comment><USER11> It's not a side for Silicon Valley. It's a side for Silicon Valley's most powerful and influential people.

That does mean something.

<comment><USER10> >It's a side for Silicon Valley's most powerful and influential people

What I am trying to say is that I see the author making an allegation but they don't do a very good job of justifying. If a small percentage of all people engage in alternative lifestyle cultures then it's not surprising if a small percentage of powerful and influential people in Silicon Valley also engage.

What the author alleges is that the behavior is cultural which would put women who didn't participate at a disadvantage, neither of these assertions are backed up with a reasonable journalistic standard in the article.

Not being a member of that community I make no assertions about the veracity of the authors claims, my point is that the author is lobbing some pretty big allegations that they didn't back up well in this article.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm trying to imagine a cringier situation than a druggy sex party full of industry people. Try chilling with artists, musicians, chefs, teachers, dog walkers, anything but tech people. The mutual discovery of each other's worlds is really hot, and it minimizes the chance of ever being in a work meeting with someone where we need to pretend we haven't seen each other naked.

<comment><USER13> Artists are very cringy. A lot of musicians are cringy. Some teachers are cringy. Not sure about chefs or dog walkers.

<comment><USER14> Also cringey

<comment><USER15> At least they wouldn't have to "pretend [they] haven't seen each other naked."

After all, what well-adjusted adult would consider it a normal hum-drum part of life to interact with previous sexual partners in work situations? /s

<comment><USER13> musicians

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This article felt like a an "Unsolved Mysteries" narration to begin with, but this part really set off my BS sensors:

> MDMA is a powerful and long-lasting drug whose one-two punch of euphoria and > manic energy can keep you rolling for three or four hours. As dopamine > fires, connections spark around the room, and normal inhibitions drop away. > People start cuddling and making out. These aren't group orgies, per se, but > guests will break out into twosomes or threesomes or more. They may > disappear into one of the venue's many rooms, or they may simply get down in > the open. Night turns to day, and the group reconvenes for breakfast, after > which some may have intercourse again. Eat, drugs, sex, repeat.

Listen, MDMA is great. But make people want to fuck it does not. In fact, it's damn near impossible to become seriously sexually aroused on MDMA. It promotes a much more fraternal feeling than a sexual one.

</comment><comment><USER17> This article is a fascinating reflection of our current culture. It's simultaneous power shaming and slut shaming.

It's pretty sad that across all of the women interviewed they're either portrayed as naive and disempowered or "merely" prostitutes.

Despite its semi-neutral tone, in the end this article is quite sexist.

</comment><comment><USER18> So...a Silicon Valley version of a Hellfire club [1]?

What's the deal with that hot tub party photo from 1996? In particular what is supporting the laptop? It appears to be right on the surface of the water, which would be a ridiculous way to try to use it, as any ripples or waves would get it wet.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club)

<comment><USER19> Could be a Toughbook, although doubt it.

Introduced in '96: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughbook](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughbook)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Not shocking at all - follows a pattern we've seen before on wallstreet and anywhere else men think they're amazing cuz they're rich. It's just cute that SV has the lifestyle choice spin on it.

</comment><comment><USER21> OK, so this bothers me on a couple of levels. One, this strikes me as New York wagging its fingers at San Francisco, while bankers and media types have been having parties like this for ages, and it's taken with more or less a shrug. That said, though, it's also a bit slimy the ways that feminist polyamory and sex-positive community has been coopted as some sort of fig leaf for plain old money and power. The bankers never sought to justify themselves. I don't think that actually alters the basic morality one way or the other, but I have to say, I'm reminded of this scene: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkj6PhhhzDk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkj6PhhhzDk)

</comment><comment><USER22> This article is hilarious. It's like someone invited MADD to a weekend of beer fueled antics at a mud bog and this is their horrified blog post about how it went.

People are crazy. People like to do drugs and have sex. Money adds fuel to the fire. Also, water is wet.

</comment><comment><USER23> My goodness, the pearl clutching sex panic is hilarious coming from Vanity Fair.

Rich people have parties and they're fun because when you're rich you can afford good drugs and nice venues. News at 10.

<comment><USER24> You've missed the point. Orgies are fine. Drugs are fine (or at the very least your choice). There is however a huge contrast between smoking a bit of pot and going to an explicitly organized orgy with an enforced ratio and being fed MDMA and expensive presents by a CEO who wants to fuck you and your best friend.

<comment><USER25> women trading sex for gifts. Gasp. Say it aint so. Let's call pulitzer right now.

<comment><USER24> To take that attitude further, let's look at prostitution:

Prostitution is fine morally. However, the manner in which it is currently conducted in most of the world is incredibly exploitative. e.g. pimps beating the shit out of the people they're supposed to protect.

<comment><USER6> Bureaucrats can suck, but they are a whole lot better to deal with than pimps!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I expect that a majority of people would be very uncomfortable at one of these work-related parties. Beyond the man/woman power asymmetry there are a lot of other groups of people that would exclude themselves from these events, but that may be the point.

</comment><comment><USER27> I'm trying to reconcile '60 shades of grey' selling 125 million copies globally so far and Vanity Fair/Emily Chang being so shocked about wealthy silicon valley swingers...

</comment><comment><USER28> At a Christmas party about 12 years ago I ran into a woman that I had been on a couple of dates with. Because she and a her girlfriend at the party were drinking I offered to drive them home. On the way home her girlfriend got a call, learned of a swingers party, and invited us to go with her. It was quite surprising for me. We didn't stay or participate, but I had no idea that such well attended parties were going on under my nose and overlapped to such a large degree with my social circle. (This wasn't in SV.)

</comment><comment><USER29> This is a sensationalist piece based on a _really tiny_ amount of anecdotal evidence. I'm not upvoting it.

</comment><comment><USER30> If these parties are so widespread, how come no one has posted any actual photos from these parties? I'm sure there's _some_ of this going on, but it can't be as widespread as claimed.

</comment><comment><USER31> A common refrain: practice X is packaged by its purveyors as the sine qua non of enlightened thinking and action. But ultimately, it is argued, ends up reinforcing the establishment status quo. Can be applied universally to everything from the gig economy to young blood infusions.

In this context, however, I believe we are witnessing an unprecedented and radical redefinition of traditional monogamy in real-time.

Naturally, social media plays a fundamental role in the re-thinking of modern monogamy. And one can't help but infer some connection between a platform and its creator's biases.

At root is perhaps a philosophy born in the heyday of the Haight-Ashbury scene. Free Love. The idea that anyone can share intimacy with any one else. Without possessiveness. Without jealousy. Without betrayal. As long as there is explicit consent.

It's not even a modern idea. Some elements are found in Plato's Republic. Fertility rites attended by the entire polis. Followed by newborns becoming wards of the state. To be raised with egalitarian love. And no parent showing any preference for their own offspring over another.

But does it actually work in practice? Are we actually wired for pan-amory?

Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Dawn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_at_Dawn)

</comment><comment><USER25> The only thing I found vaguely interesting about the article was the lack of male bisexuality. My guess is that the author was pursuing a very narrow group of people.

</comment><comment><USER32> "Molly tablets that have been molded into the logos of some of the hottest tech companies"

I'm going to call bullshit.

<comment><USER33> They are real. I've seen Netflix, UPS, Teslas in the wild

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I think, if you look hard enough in any city, you'll find just about anything, including sex dungeon parties. I knew some people who were not very secretive about it in Philadelphia, Baltimore, and DC. Those are the only cities I've lived in, so considering it's been 3-for-3 so far, I suspect it's pretty prevalent. The fact that in SV it's full of VCs is not surprising, as nowhere else would you find the density of VCs than in SV.

I think the bigger question might be--in an age of safe sex and (ostensibly) loose morals--why isn't it more common?

<comment><USER35> Yep its the CSI Freak of the week trophe.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> I've been going to the wrong parties!

</comment><comment><USER37> In all honesty - why is this seen as such a bad thing. So many well off people engage in this sexualised fantasy behaviour who are monied / well off.

I would expect a bit more from a Bloomberg presenter but then again superficiality is clearly what she needs to sell her book.

This is honestly nothing new at all unless you're a prude

</comment><comment><USER38> I think the crucial mistake most commenters/assessors on HN are making is in somehow equating SV with engineer and social introvert types. Of course those people aren't going to sex parties!

But SV has over the years adopted the money-hungry, the investors and startup- flippers, as the core demographic by which it continues and grows. And these people are always in search of that next high. If that next high can be taboo and paid for with an exclusive amount of money, they'll be there.

SV is no longer defined by its engineers. We see this in the hypergrowth cycles, in the "you can't engineer yourself out of a societal problem" phenomenon, in the fact that you can't get anywhere in SV without getting on your knees in front of a VC board.

</comment><comment><USER39> Yuck. I felt slimy after reading this article. What female would participate in this?

<comment><USER40> One trying desperately to survive in a male-dominated industry in a geographic area where failure means you join their ever increasing homeless population, I imagine.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Preface: I spend a lot of this response talking about a hypothetical high- status man and a low-status woman. This isn't to be sexist or perpetuate stereotypes; it's just to use a common example that we've all probably seen and witnessed.

Preface 2: this response was to someone else in this thread but it got pulled out to the top level for some reason.

The intention of the article was, probably, just to shed light on the fact that this sort of stuff happens. It might not even be accurate. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume that it is. The author wasn't suggesting solutions. Why is it interesting to Vanity Fair readers?

\- It's about the glamorous lives of the 0.1%.

\- It's about sex.

\- It's about drugs.

\- A lot of these men are socially oblivious, so it provides material to laugh at otherwise powerful people. Who, in their right minds, sees a co-worker at a bondage-event and tells others at their workplace? And who, in their right minds, brings it up with said co-worker?

\- If what the article reports is true, the behaviour of some of the male participants could reasonably be interpreted as sexually predatory.

It's the last point that's a bit troublesome. I think a lot of the men involved don't realize their behaviour is shitty. They flash wealth and reputation and make drunken suggestions like, which I've personally witnessed, "Oh, you're interested in starting a company... I could totally put you in touch with my friend who runs a VC firm. He's always looking for new investments. Hey, let's get another drink. You're super interesting. Oh, it's closing time. Wanna head back to my place, it's only a couple blocks away, and we could continue this conversation?"

It's even worse if the dude talking has some sort of professional connection with the woman (e.g. introduction through co-worker or investor). It's not illegal but it's lousy. It's also reasonable for her to think that their might be some form of punishment for saying, 'no'. I think the lesson those sorts of guys could learn is that they're, at best, being manipulative and assholes. And the lesson targeted women can learn is that these guys probably aren't telling the truth and they should stick to mostly professional channels to get ahead (if that's their reason for engaging sexually with these men).

Guys, if sex is your goal, I suggest the old-fashioned method. This isn't targeted at you, OP, but just a rhetorical bit aimed at the hypothetical male described in the article:

\- Work your way into a good job.

\- Be polite.

\- Be funny.

\- Work out.

\- Dress well.

\- Be financially responsible.

\- Have a drink or two, if that's your thing.

\- Don't be too flashy and avoid mentions of wealth or powerful connections.

\- Show genuine interest in the other party and her friends and family.

\- Be forward but not obnoxious about your intentions before sex (e.g. looking for sex, looking for a relationship, etc...).

\- Never lie.

\- Never EVER make promises or suggestions that you can help her career until you're well into a relationship.

\- If you genuinely believe in her and want to help her career, do so, but save any romantic or sexual advances until after you've helped and you can't renege what you've done. Be absolutely clear that she doesn't owe you anything.

EDIT:

\- And never kiss and tell. It might win you a few bar-room points but it's frankly trashy and teenager-like behaviour. Romantic and sexual relationships involve two parties and are inherently intimate and you might be violating your partner's trust and reputation by divulging you've had sex or what the sex was like and so on. Even if your partner is okay with it, a lot of people don't find talking about your sexual conquests entertaining.

<comment><USER41> The old-fashioned method you are suggesting requires much more effort than Silicon Valley parties that are currently being thrown. Changing who you are as a person is tough, and why do that when there are easier options. In places like SV and Seattle where there is an imbalance between men/women, you could follow these instructions perfectly but you would still be playing with bad odds.

There was recently an article about a prostitution ring busted in Seattle involving Amazon/Microsoft employees, which just shows these type of situations are inevitable in male-dominated industries, and wealth just exasperates the issue.

The old-fashioned method is one of those win-win situations, but if you're willing to let go of being morally correct, it certainly does not hold up against what is currently going on.

<comment><USER7> Unfortunately, I agree. I've had significantly more trouble dating in Silicon Valley than anywhere else I've lived. In fact, that's why I'm moving to NYC. Using dating apps as evidence:

On the east coast:

\- I get 5x as many matches.

\- Most of my matches respond to my openers.

\- My matches are significantly higher quality.

\- My matches suggest meeting up for dates.

\- My matches compliment me.

\- My matches never unmatch me.

The whole silicon valley gender skew seems like a bad situation for everyone involved. But I'm not sure what can be done about.

I suggested the old-fashioned method because it does no harm. My only issues with the orgies described in the article is there seems to be quite a bit of consent-through-manipulation.

<comment><USER42> NYC is probably the optimal case, since it's been known for years that it's one of the few places where there are more single women than single men. In some areas, many more single women. In other words, it skews the exact opposite way from SV.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> This is all real. I've been to some of the parties she mentioned. I hope that people read Brotopia and see that what Emily Chang is deriding isn't Burning Man, renegades, or the like.

It's how a predatory part of the startup population exploits these kinds of environments to use and hurt people.

I've gotten a lot of questions recently why I sort of dropped off the radar a few years ago in going to a lot of VC/founder rage scene. This is a big part of why. I don't want me or the people I care about to be exposed to this.

And to be honest, I don't know how to stop it.

</comment><comment><USER44> Is this really limited to just SV?

This was one of the more eye opening articles I read last year -> [https://jezebel.com/the-slutty-resurgence-of-new-yorks- under...](https://jezebel.com/the-slutty-resurgence-of-new-yorks-underground- gay-sex-1800953101)

Also I'll leave this here... [https://www.yelp.com/biz/power-exchange-san- francisco-3](https://www.yelp.com/biz/power-exchange-san-francisco-3)

</comment><comment><USER45> This is a bit tangential but I wonder how the following classic psychological experiment would play out if participants were on MDMA, drunk, or aware of social status:

[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285214736_Deviance_...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285214736_Deviance_in_the_dark)

Also, I wonder if in today's world (with more gender equality) if some of the female participants might actually not have wanted to be intimate.

</comment><comment><USER46> It may not be a popular opinion, but why are these tech founders and VCs always judged and pointed at by reporters and such? I mean yeah, if they engage in illegal behaviour (sexual asssault) and stuff there should be punishment as with any other citizen. But in any other case, why don't tech reporters focus on the tech? Rather than on the morals or sex lifes of the founders? It seems to me that founders are now under public scrutiny as if their company sold morals.

</comment><comment><USER47> Wall Street, Hollywood, Silicon Valley... are there any other high-rolling industry hubs out there that don't have a decadent underbelly? Maybe Motor City in its heyday.

<comment><USER48> It's not just high-rolling ones.

Over the last few years I've been involved in the furniture and construction industries and their "decadent underbellies" are just as bad if not worse than what I've seen in tech, finance and elsewhere. According to many insiders I know in the concrete world, they have the most insane industry parties. Carpeting is pretty crazy too from what I've seen.

It's not unique to any industry.

<comment><USER35> Chemical engines have a rep for really hard drinking as do civils I have heard (at a top 5 consultancy) a discussion of the best computer cleaning fluids to make hooch with.

<comment><USER47> A lot of professions are associated with drinking, it's not the same as hedonistic decadence delivered by dumb money

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER49> I'm a Silicon Valley engineer/founder who attends "light" versions of this: basically mini Burning Man-esque parties among trusted groups of friends, where "orgiastic" behavior is present, but not expected.

My only point is that not all similar events prominently feature the male/female power dynamic described in this article.

</comment><comment><USER50> Slavoj Zizek:

> In racism, the other is not simply an enemy. His figure is also usually > invested with some specific perverse enjoyment, or maybe he his someone who > tries to steal our enjoyment from us.

</comment><comment><USER51> Well given that advertising, marketing and finance companies throw ragers like this somewhat on the reg, it doesn't surprise me that folks at the top take it to 11.

</comment><comment><USER52> are some comments being removed?

</comment><comment><USER53> In American society, aren't most orgiastic groups also secretive, in general?

</comment><comment><USER54> The HIVE header in article was a perfect predictor of the BS that came next.

</comment><comment><USER55> One question I have as a recent grad who moved to Silicon Valley to work in tech is how do I get invited to one of these parties. Setting aside all the social implications, they sound really fun.

<comment><USER56> Be an attractive female with the right connections or be a powerful male with the right connections.

<comment><USER57> I call this power discrimination. I demand equal treatment of all men by the oppossum sex.

<comment><USER9> If you continue to post unsubstantive comments to HN we will ban you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER52> I like this answer even if i strongly disagree with it. Hopefully we can engage in a polite discussion where i can contribute the male centric counter- part of your perspective.

>That technique may be used for women (and, heck, men too -- I'm the female 'breadwinner' of my household, although I didn't meet my husband at a sex party...)

Yes some men, but those case are very rare and fare in between. I don't have any better analogy than saying that's like talking about female on male rape or white people being also subject to police violence when talking about black life matters.

> to better their lives, but those gains may be sporadic, and they depend on > the continued cooperation of the man they're sleeping with.

But isn't that true for 99% of the working population ? My salary depend on my continue cooperation of my company i am working for.

> Having a job, skills are easily transferable between employers, resources in > my own name, and a relationship built on mutual respect and kindness, gives > me far more freedom and security than sleeping with guys for the lifestyle > perks.

Is this true for any jobs ? Or are you describing the reality for you (what i presume being a conventionally beautiful ,upper middle class American woman)?

Is that true for any man ? or just the one you dated ?

> Now, I'm not saying women shouldn't go to these parties or sleep with these > men if they want to, or that considering a man's private jet ownership when > debating about whether or not you want to sleep with him is an immoral > choice.

Yes, but you are implying that having those choices is not a intrinsic privilege mostly associated with being a (conventionally beautiful) woman and that pointing this privilege is something of a simplification. I am born with a relatively high intelligence. It's also usually comes with high propensity to anxiety and depression and social awkwardness and as such my intelligence doesnt by me everything in life, but all in all it's still a nice privilege to have in 2017. I see female beauty the same.

If had to point an overarching theme on you answer, is that you seems to compare the "gains" from the sexual options of being a woman with those of very power man. We can agree on this (although there is something to be said on comparing a man in his late 35 and the fruit of his labor with the life style of a 20-something, but that a discussion for another time). I don't think that's the fair comparison.

What we need to look at : while you were being a "trophy girlfriend" , how did you life compare to you less desirable friends, and to your male friends around you? Beauty, like intelligence or any other intrinsic quality is an asset; It can be used wisely or not, it can be very valuable or not, but it's still an asset...

> the two choices sound like equivalent things, when they're absolutely not.

Which two choices ?

> On a side note: The presence of these particular sex parties, and the fact > that they're so closely intertwined with business in Silicon Valley, I think > is an problem. As the article paints it, there's sort of a "damned if you do > and damned if you don't" issue that they're introducing for women working in > certain companies or who are seeking VC funding.

I guess i can try to share the male perspective on this. It seems that there is wide belief that male sexuality is by nature predatory. Might be some truth to that and the news these days don't really help. But from anecdotal experience, and for having been to those type of parties. Trying to coerce women into coming to those type of party is always plan B. Plan A is always to find open minded women with common interest. And much in the same way that height and muscular bodies are attractive to certain women, money,weath and power is attractive to enough women that plan A i usually all one needs...

<comment><USER58> > I don't have any better analogy than saying that's like talking about female > on male rape or white people being also subject to police violence when > talking about black life matters.

That second analogy isn't what you probably want; White people are very much subject to police violence; BLM is about the lack of accountability for (not just police; the impetus was actually the Trayvon Martin killing, which was not by police) violence against black people and not about the idea that black people are uniquely the target of police violence.

<comment><USER52> > violence against black people and not about the idea that black people are > uniquely the target of police violence.

I guess we will have to disagree on this. My perspective is that they are. The frequency, the magnitude and ubiquity of said violence makes it a distinct experience than most other racial group.

Another analogy, both I and a poor child in Somalia experience hunger from time to time, but i think his/her experience is distinctively worst than mine.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> To me, the idea that one must participate in this "open" lifestyle to climb the ladder is bullshit. You either decide to go to the party and jump in the cuddle puddle, or not.

But, no matter what you "think" you're doing, what you will find there is drama. Lot's of drama. Try as you might to keep that out, it is impossible to do that. It's human nature.

The women who attend are every bit as calculating and self absorbed as the men who pay them to come, so I have no special sympathies for their plights that ensue from it. And the men are hardly immune themselves. I have no doubt that some of them have fallen deeply in love with a woman at one of those parties and spent many long hours crying in bed alone because the woman didn't give a single shit about them afterwards.

Another thing that's bullshit is that this is a "progressive" lifestyle. It's a sex obsessed lifestyle. That too is a human nature that some cannot resist, but again, there's always drama down that path. And some who you'll find there thrive on that drama and constantly work at creating it and can cause you all kinds of stress with their bullshit.

So, no, there's nothing "progressive" about it. That stuff is as old as civilization itself. Calling it "progressive" is putting lipstick on a very old pig.

And finally, the entire "OH MY GOD, THIS IS SO F---ED UP" approach to paint this as an exposé is bullshit too. You can find the same thing going on in Branson, Missouri with plumbers and concrete finishers.

<comment><USER60> I kept reading this and saying "when are they going to call this 'swinging'?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER61> This article munges swinging, kink, and nuveau-hippie sensuality events into one big pile and claims that rich techies are "marginalizing" women, because they can't claim the women are being abused, because they "happen" to be completely in control of themselves and their choices. This is white-knightism shrouded in the pseudo-scandal of sex, with a silicon valley cherry on top.

This is a tired old journalistic trope. Take a secretive, not-socially- acceptable topic, and present it to the world, as if exposing some hidden evil lurking behind a corner. Sadly, the truth is a lot more boring than most people will ever realize.

 _" Perhaps this culture is just one of the many offshoots of the sexually progressive Bay Area"_

This is a tiny example of what is happening all over the world, in addition to this country. Ignore that the topic's location is the literal epicenter of not only the sexual revolution, but gay liberation and the effective birthplace of hetero BDSM. These events happen _everywhere_. You can find them in North Dakota, in Alaska. This is not in any way new, or weird, or irregular. This is normal. It's not "socially acceptable", but it is normal.

 _" It's worth asking, however, if these sexual adventurers are so progressive, why do these parties seem to lean so heavily toward male- heterosexual fantasies?"_

Welcome to swinging culture, enjoy your cisheteropatriarchy. Again, nothing to do with Silicon Valley. The fact that there are men with lots of money throwing parties has nothing to do with tech. You'll find a different set of men [and women] throwing parties in DC, New York, LA, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Sao Paulo, etc.

 _" The party scene is now so pervasive that women entrepreneurs say turning down invitations relegates them to the uncool-kids' table."_

Oh no, peer pressure!!! We better make an after-school special for the women V.C.s. It's not news that wealthy men have been making deals in strip clubs and private parties for a long time, and breaking those barriers is not easy, but also not some mysterious invisible barrier. People in power should obviously not use these one-sided venues for business, but shaming or banning the events altogether doesn't seem like a healthy answer to this.

 _" The problem is that weekend views of women as sex pawns and founder hounders can't help but affect weekday views of women as colleagues, entrepreneurs, and peers."_

And I agree! But 'orgies' are not what are creating unfair societal expectations and marginalizing women. The real causes are slew of issues that start and end in everyday human activity. If you want to help marginalized women, help them where they are being marginalized every day! Not by shaming a generic amalgamation of parties that all happen to feature the lowering of inhibitions in ways that won't get you invited back to the church social.

And by the way, writing an article about a bunch of people who cannot or will not give their names leaves no room for them to offer a rebuttal. This isn't journalism, this is an op-ed hit piece.

<comment><USER62> > This is white-knightism shrouded in ...

The author is a woman; not saying you didn't know that, but knights are traditionally men.

> The real causes are slew of issues that start and end in everyday human > activity. If you want to help marginalized women, help them where they are > being marginalized every day!

What sorts of activities, and where? I agree with all the rest of your points --just probing this one for the sake of completeness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER63> This article makes me wonder, what, exactly, is wrong and what is supposed to be done about this. I get that it seems exploitative and probably does have consequences for social attitudes at work, but what I don't understand is what's to be done about this?

Surely there's nothing (drug use aside) that's legally actionable about this. The encounters seemed consensual in the sense that the women weren't threatened or forced and were told about what the drugs offered would do.

If there's not any legal wrong doing then is it social misconduct? Somehow it feels wrong for me to judge or condemn adults for their sexual conduct - <USER2> if it seems cheap, transactional, and gross to me. I understand different people have different values and preferences, so why should I apply mine to them? Furthermore, I can't imagine that finger wagging from the likes of Vanity Fair is going to make these rich young men give up on their drug fueled sex parties.

It's an interesting article, even though the author is decidedly biased and at times intentionally misleading (e.g. when she scorns the idea that there are some/many women interested in taking advantage of men, in the middle of an article about rich nerds finding themselves suddenly with a surfeit of women). I don't understand what is supposed to be done about this though or even if something should be aside from educating young women about the tradeoffs they may make in these environments.

<comment><USER64> The entire article was on how these interactions are facilitated by the intentional use of illegal, mind-altering drugs.

Aside from the obvious fact that the drugs are illegal, there is also the question of whether those who are under the influence of these drugs can consent to sex.

<comment><USER63> I think if you consent to go to the sex party, you consent to physical romantic activity, you consent to taking the drug knowing your context and what the drug will do, and then you consent to sex throughout the experience, it's hard to see how it's anything but consensual.

If you have a colonoscopy done, the medication they give you will make it so you don't remember things or (I hope) feel things, but, my doctor told me, you will still respond to instructions like "roll on your side" etc. If I consent to go to the doctor's office, and have the IV after it's explained to me what the drug does, and then they give me the drug and I have the procedure, am I consenting to the procedure even though I'm very much impaired during the process? I'd say so.

<comment><USER65> It would be non-consensual if you didn't give affirmative consent.

However, reading this, it seems that affirmative consent was given at all times, first to taking drugs and then to making out (or having sex) so this article is basically just a hoo-hah over consenting adults engaging in drug- enabled group sex.

<comment><USER66> Rich men vastly outnumbered by 20 something women? The men are finally in positions of power and the women think that being in the 'inner circle' might open doors for them?

In might be consensual in the sense that everyone said yes, but there's a known balance of power. Sounds like coercion and naivety.

<comment><USER67> "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac" —Henry Kissinger

How do you know these women don't genuinely _want_ casual sex with rich, powerful men?

<comment><USER68> Sure it's technically possible. If you were a woman would you want to have sex with Henry Kissinger?

Drugs, alcohol, and whores are cheap compared to the value you can extract from people using them. This article was fun to read; there have been lots of hit pieces coming out this year on SV, can't say it's undeserved either. Nothing here is shocking or unexpected, pederasty would be shocking -- no names which takes a whole lot of fun out of it for the spectators.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER69> I think there is a certain amount of denial about male sexuality. It's like trying to change the fundamental personality traits of a child: it won't work and will probably result in someone who is antisocial or otherwise crazy.

I don't know why we can't have a discussion about this. Possibly feminism is caught up in a narrative that is overly female-centric, which isn't really unexpected (or entirely unreasonable). But just as feminism is reactionary to abuse by males, there are going to be reactionary elements to the desire of some feminists to suppress men in general.

If you think that isn't true, do a google images search for "feminist tshirts", the sixth one is a woman kneeing a man in the testicles. A simple image search on feminism points out just how much anger there is on all sides of the argument.

<comment><USER56> There's no such thing as "the sixth Google result," everyones Google results are different depending on your location, language settings, search history, browsing habits, and probably a million different variables. I just scrolled through many, many pages of Google image search results both from my phone and my work computer and didn't come across anything negative, the only thing cringy I saw was "the future is female." In fact, one of the first 10 results I got was "pro-women is not anti-men."

The other question is what site did this image come from? Was is some toxic red pill fringe site that created it for the purpose of "proving" the "feminists agenda" or an actual mainstream feminist site selling actual real life tshirts to people who actually identity as feminist for the purpose of wearing? A single unqualified Google image search results doesn't tell you anything of any value.

I think you show more about your search history and browsing habits than anything about the feminist movement or the average person's feelings on the matter. If you go seeking "them wimen folk are out to get me" crap Google is going to show you more of it.

<comment><USER70> I did the same search in an incognito window. Woman kneeing a man in the groin was the fourth result.

Maybe your results show more about your search history and browsing habits than anything about the feminist movement or the average person's feelings on the matter.

<comment><USER34> Just because you're in an incognito window doesn't mean Google doesn't know who you are.

"The neatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing people he wasn't real."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Cant wait for the work of silicon valley movie

<comment><USER71> Wolf _

<comment><USER72> i am now interested in the movie i thought your uncorrected typo referred to: The Worf of Wall Street

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> "I see a lot of men leading people on, sleeping with a dozen women at the same time. But if each of the dozen women doesn't care, is there any crime committed? You could say it's disgusting but not illegal—it just perpetuates a culture that keeps women down."

How does it keep women down? Sleeping with a guy is a built in option women have to better their lives, that men don't have.

Otherwise they're just like the rest of us poor schmuck dudes that actually have to go into work everyday.

I'm so confused about what women expect these days.

<comment><USER74> "Sleeping with a guy is a built in option women have to better their lives, that men don't have."

This is a complicated issue, and there's a lot to unpack here.

That technique may be used for women (and, heck, men too -- I'm the female 'breadwinner' of my household, although I didn't meet my husband at a sex party...) to better their lives, but those gains may be sporadic, and they depend on the continued cooperation of the man they're sleeping with.

I was in a "trophy girlfriend" relationship when I was young and my entire life revolved around "keeping" this guy. After a while, he broke up with me, I had to ask my parents for rent money (I had taken a first class trip to Europe the month before, but what was I going to do, ask him to put the money into my emergency savings account instead?), my entire life sort of fell apart. I went to parties with his friends, lived in his apartment, had a credit card on his account. Making sure he was happy was a job, but the skills weren't entirely transferable and there was no security. Not a situation I wanted to be in again, and I didn't.

Having a job, skills are easily transferable between employers, resources in my own name, and a relationship built on mutual respect and kindness, gives me far more freedom and security than sleeping with guys for the lifestyle perks. Even with alimony and child support in the picture (in which case you need to "get him" to marry you and/or have children) there is no facet of your life or lifestyle that is insulated from the whims of a single person. No, you may not starve after a divorce, but, especially if there's a pre-nup involved, the "betterment" in your life will always be temporary gain during the length of the relationship while his will be a permanent one.

Now, I'm not saying women shouldn't go to these parties or sleep with these men if they want to, or that considering a man's private jet ownership when debating about whether or not you want to sleep with him is an immoral choice. But saying "This is a built-in option for women that men don't have... the rest of us poor schmuck dudes actually have to go to work everyday" is an incredible simplification that makes the two choices sound like equivalent things, when they're absolutely not.

On a side note: The presence of these particular sex parties, and the fact that they're so closely intertwined with business in Silicon Valley, I think _is_ an problem. As the article paints it, there's sort of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" issue that they're introducing for women working in certain companies or who are seeking VC funding.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> The following seems to be what it's all about:

" Rich men expecting casual sexual access to women is anything but a new paradigm. But many of the A-listers in Silicon Valley have something unique in common: a lonely adolescence devoid of contact with the opposite sex. Married V.C. described his teenage life as years of playing computer games and not going on a date until he was 20 years old. Now, to his amazement, he finds himself in a circle of trusted and adventurous tech friends with the money and resources to explore their every desire. After years of restriction and longing, he is living a fantasy, and his wife is right there along with him."

If I may humblebrag for a moment, I had a really great sex life in the years before I got married when I was young and good-looking, so all this kind of stuff seems like a very risky and mildly pathetic way to create a lot of trouble in one's personal life. Young nerds, I implore you to have a really awesome time while you are young and good-looking so you make some great memories so you won't have to deal with all this regret and pathetic chasing around after a lost youth that these older guys engage in.

<comment><USER76> Your advice is not actionable and kind of boils down to "just be good looking". If these "young nerds" had the opportunity to make great memories as awkward teenagers, why wouldn't they?</comment></comment>


Replicating the Silicon Valley Effect Outside the Valley - <AUTHOR> http://www.davidgildeh.com/blog/2011/09/23/replicating-silicon-valley-effect-outside-valley

<comment><USER2> i must say that this article hits a chord.. i'm running a startup from Malaysia and the entrepreneurial community here is nascent to say the least..

i think that change will come about much quicker if the silicon valley community reaches out to the rest of the world.

there are inherent benefits of them reaching out.. namely lower dev cost, hungrier entrepreneurs and untapped talent..

500startups is doing a great job at this and it's a good thing for the entrepreneurial community worldwide if this trend continues</comment>


Scans of North Korean IP Space - <AUTHOR> http://nknetobserver.github.io <comment><USER2> So they seem to have at least some commercial software and hardware made by American companies. Given that the US cannot trade with NK that means either 1) the companies broke the embargo or 2) they bought through a 3rd party or 3) the software is pirated/stolen/

I'll assume #1 isn't true since it would be stupid for those companies to do that for so little money.

#2 has interesting implications about trade embargoes. Unless everyone in the world participates, it seems like all an embargo does is add complexity and middle-men to the transaction. For example, if they legally acquired the software and hardware through a Chinese or Russian reseller, then all that happened was the Chinese or Russians took a cut.

#3 interestes me because what happens there? Ok, they are using clearly stolen software, now what? Are there any consequences?

<comment><USER3> There is a _huge_ market (In the Billions of dollars) for used technology hardware - I've seen some warehouses that had over $500million dollars (at list price) of used Networking and Server equipment. I can't believe it would be particularly difficult for places like Cuba, North Korea, etc... to purchase a bunch of containers of Cisco Routers or HP servers and have them routed through cut-out countries before final shipping to them.

<comment><USER4> > I've seen some

Please elaborate! If you're comfortable with it of course.

<comment><USER3> These guys (who I've worked with back when they were NHR) have massive warehouses of used equipment that you purchase for 70-80% off list. They sell about $250mm worth of equipment each year.

[https://www.curvature.com](https://www.curvature.com)

Here is their distribution center: [https://www.curvature.com/DistributionCenter](https://www.curvature.com/DistributionCenter)

Carrying inventory valued at $200mm.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Fascinating. Has anyone ever penetrated the NK intranet via an internet-facing machine, to do a thorough analysis? I've read a few articles [1] but never a detailed analysis of what's available.

[1] [http://www.fastcolabs.com/3036049/what-its-like-to-use- north...](http://www.fastcolabs.com/3036049/what-its-like-to-use-north-koreas- internet)

</comment><comment><USER6> The generally old-school services available and minimal turnover suggests to me that the official IP space is entirely controlled by a few NK government entities (maybe one of the universities?) and the real NK IP space is dispersed among Chinese allocations/assignments. Is there any way to know how representative these results are of overall NK Internet usage?

<comment><USER7> That's possible, but the general consensus is this (FTA):

"The country is said to have a fairly large internal domestic internet disconnected from the rest of the world. Most citizens with access to computers are only allowed to access this network, not the global computer network the rest of us connect to."

That is, absolutely, the official IP space is assigned to government and government-affiliated institutions. The rest of the local internet isn't in the Chinese address space, though; it's instead on a disconnected network with its own address space allocations, which may overlap with addresses in the rest of the world's IPv4 instance.

<comment><USER8> I've been to North Korea and confirm this is accurate. They have an internal intranet with message boards etc. Pretty dated.

Also when Indian contractors were brought in to work on the pyramid hotel in Pyongyang I was told that they had a special network provided by NK government which curiously had full access to everything e.g. Facebook etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Despite the controversial topic, I think it is interesting to see what one can conclude about a country from freely available information (even though the nmap'ing might have been illegal, I'm not sure about laws regarding nmap anymore).

<comment><USER10> And one can try to imagine if the alleged 100TB went that way.

<comment><USER11> No it surely did not.

N Korea however has rather free movement of people/cargo with china, limited to govt official/cargo.

I'm pretty sure N Korea did it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Anyone have an idea how much bandwidth NK has? How easy would it be for a large botnet to DDoS the whole country?

<comment><USER13>
      Anyone have an idea how much bandwidth NK has? How easy
      would it be for a large botnet to DDoS the whole country?

How ironic would that be? Anonymous gathers up all its 4chan script kiddies to LOIC NK, to save the face of a company that has systematically treated its customers like criminals, namely those script kiddies with their DRM'ed Playstations and Audio CDs and DVDs, whilst fancifully offering up their credit card details online to be hacked and dumped on black hat card trader websites.

Oh, yep. Sign me up to some of that illegal shit. /end sarcasm.

I genuinely find the suggestion to attack an entire countries internet infrastructure to be a poor idea, whoever they are.

<comment><USER14> Ok, but you can also consider it from a theoretical point of view and try to think of the ramifications rather than simply dismiss it as impractical. Personally my hacker side finds the idea intriguing and I hope someone could answer this question.

<comment><USER13> Agreed it is an interesting theoretical question.

But, sometimes theoretical questions have shaky moral ground, and more importantly, put stupid ideas in stupid people's heads.

Adam and Eve is probably the classic example.

<comment><USER15> Avoiding questions because of theoretical potential outcomes of people knowing the answer is neither good nor useful. Knowledge is not implicitly dangerous or immoral.

Also, in this particular case, it seems that the people interested in that sort of thing could figure it out anyway. Obscurity isn't security.

<comment><USER16> > Knowledge is not implicitly dangerous or immoral

Good phrase!

<comment><USER17> Sometimes I feel like half of my HN comments are about this guy, but Aaron Sorkin (writer/creator of A Few Good Men, The West Wing, The Social Network, and recently The Newsroom) wrote this line in a not-very-successful TV show 15 years ago called Sports Night, which is the same phrase but slightly nicer, and has stuck with me.

Dan is a TV host who did a Variety Fair interview in which he was semi-pro drug legalisation.

> _Dan: The validity of your read on what most of the country thinks > notwithstanding, Stanley.... Actions are immoral. Opinions are not. And I > won 't apologize for mine. Discussion is good, and for those of us fortunate > enough to be the subject of magazine articles, it may be our responsibility > from time to time to try and raise the level of debate. _

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I don't really see how this tells us anything interesting. You would see pretty similar results no matter where you scanned, with the exception of the Red Star OS stuff.

<comment><USER19> That's interesting by itself. One could expect something unusual in NK.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Kudos for resisting the temptation to login to that macbook's VNC server. Or at least, kudos for not telling us about it.

<comment><USER21> Kudos for pointing it out to us, then.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> My webpage get a few visits from NK every week. A bit curious wether this is common. Anyone else seeing this in their logs?

<comment><USER23> We looked at our web stats for the past year recently and found we'd had visits from every country except two, NK being one of the two not logged. (I forget the other, and I don't recall what definition of "all the countries" was used.)

So I'm thinking not common. Anyone else seen or conspicuously not seen hits from NK?

<comment><USER22> I looked a bit closer at my web server logs and the IP addresses matched one of the ranges described in the blog post. My application is translated to Korean by end-users, and reading the logs I see that the user downloaded it, read some tutorials in the documentation and some months later downloaded the latest version. I'm not sure why it surprised me that there visitors from NK when I saw it yesterday, it makes sense when I think about it. I already know that my software happens to be used by governments in several dictatorships (yay for open source.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Small correction: VMware authd runs on the host machine, not the guest. That's actually a Windows machine running VMware Workstation.

</comment><comment><USER25> I was surprised they're using Cisco. Some Chinese hardware (Huawei ?) would make more sense : both are back-doored, but at least the Chinese are kind of allies.

<comment><USER26> do you have any link with info about cisco backdooring?

<comment><USER27> Cisco is the one that came up with the "legal intercept" backdoor IETF protocol for routers. There have also been "mistakes" where Cisco had remote access to people's routers, when they upgraded them to new firmware. There were some Snowden revelations about Cisco routers being backdoors as well, although without specifically putting the same on Cisco, just on NSA putting the backdoors in Cisco's factory, with which I'm _sure_ Cisco had no relation.

<comment><USER28> I make no claims of whether or not Cisco at large is in bed with the NSA, but you must admit a government mole secretly working in the factory to install backdoored firmware is _not_ the same thing as the NSA going to Cisco's CEO and 'convincing' Cisco that installing backdoored firmware at the factory is in their best interests.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Seeing as North Korea only have 3 allocated address blocks, 184.108.40.206/22, 18.104.22.168/24 and 18.104.22.168/24 they only have approx. 1530 globally reachable IP addresses. However, North Korea must have more than ~1530 hosts. Does this mean that they use some kind of NAT, or is their number of internet connected hosts just that small?

Is there any information about the intranet in North Korea? Do they have a private class A network that everyone in the country is connected to with their own DNS servers, routers, etc which are unreachable from the rest of the internet?

<comment><USER30> Only a small number of authorized persons and high ranking government officers have access to the Internet in North Korea, so I guess it is that small.

The common people have access to the Kwangmyong, which is an IP network not physically connected to the Internet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> What are some good books/resources on things like "allocated" and "assigned" IP addresses? i.e. Internet governance, and IP in general? Where is he getting the data like: "inetnum: 184.108.40.206 - 184.108.40.206 ..."?

Also are there tools that take a list of services on ports and map it to likely hardware/OS?

I have been programming for a long time but somehow I missed out on this kind of networking knowledge. Are most people who know this stuff network engineers?

<comment><USER32> > Where is he getting the data like: "inetnum: 220.127.116.11 - 184.108.40.206 > ..."?

You're missing `whois`[1]. The wikipedia page is very informative.

If you give it an IP, it will give you "ownership" status of that particular IP, and then its containing netblocks ("outwards").

Example: (my favourite IP)

        $ whois 18.104.22.168
        % Information related to '220.127.116.11 - 18.104.22.168'

        inetnum:        18.104.22.168 - 18.104.22.168
        netname:        HETZNER-RZ16
        descr:          Hetzner Online AG
        descr:          Datacenter 16
        country:        DE

        --8<--

        % Information related to '22.214.171.124/16AS24940'

        route:          18.104.22.168/16
        descr:          HETZNER-RZ-FKS-BLK5
        origin:         AS24940
        mnt-by:         HOS-GUN
        source:         RIPE # Filtered

It gives you more things like contact information, abuse contact details, etc.

With a domain, it looks up the domain registration information.

If you ever script around whois, be prepared for loads of surprises, such as:

* Structure & format variations per provider (can be different on a TLD level)

* Some TLDs may not provide that information in a whois format at all:

        $ whois test.gr
        This TLD has no whois server, but you can access the whois database at
        https://grweb.ics.forth.gr/whois_en.jsp

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whois](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whois)

<comment><USER31> OK thanks... I've used whois before, but yeah the output has been a bit confusing to me. I think I usually use it with a host name, and using it with an IP gives different info.

I am interested in how the databases that 'whois' queries are populated... the Wikipedia page looks like it will have some good pointers.

<comment><USER32> You may also be interested to know that this database is open[1]:

> We produce daily snapshots which are available to the public. You can find > these files at our FTP site at: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/ripe.db.gz

> or split by object type at: ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/dbase/split

> These daily snapshots exclude the object types: person, role, organisation > and mntner. For data protection reasons, personal data is not available in > bulk format. [1]

To avoid confusion, that isn't just Europe (whose Regional Internet Register is RIPE NCC) but contains other continents/RIR data.

[1] [https://www.ripe.net/data-tools/db/faq/faq-db/can-i- download...](https://www.ripe.net/data-tools/db/faq/faq-db/can-i-download-the- ripe-database)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> The author notes that they picked up an MacBook Air during one of the scans. Probably unrelated, but interesting nevertheless, is that Kim has been seen using Apple products [1], specifically an iMac. Perhaps the author came across Kim's own notebook?

[1] [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/10619703/North-K...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/10619703/North- Korean-computers-get-Apple-makeover.html)

</comment><comment><USER34> I was surprised to see a hit from the DPRK on my blog about math and programming. I wonder what the reasons were, though chances are it was an irrelevant search hit.

<comment><USER35> Might as well be an infected PC wandering around looking for vulnerabilities (i.e. recent Wordpress comment hack). When I was developing Internet facing device, I had seen tons of scans, loging attempts etc. daily.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Fantastic read - and amazing amount of thought put into taking on this research, and it's fascinating to read. I just started using nmap this year, now I'm tempted to perform similar wide scans. I'm curious how to managed keeping your IP from being blocked? Or, did you use a different EC2 instance each time?

<comment><USER37> My advice would be "don't". There are quite significant potential legal ramifications for scanning other peoples infrastructure and thus you could land yourself in a lot of trouble if you're not careful.

This isn't to say that nmap (and it's ilk) are not useful diagnostic tools. But I'd recommend you leave the scanning to infrastructure you either own or have the owners consent - at least for now while you're still learning the tools.

<comment><USER38> Agreed, if you want to scan the entire internet, you better be someone like fyodor, and even then the authorities will probably come a knocking. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk-21p2m8YY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk-21p2m8YY)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> As a side note, I recently learned that it was possible to scan the whole Internet in a few hours on a regular connection: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOWexFaRylM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOWexFaRylM)

</comment><comment><USER40> It seems strange the the author implies us to do some searching through the findings, but really, he has already given away most of what you can find...

EDIT: where did I imply that this is about SONY? Have any of you who commented back on this, have actually checked the actual findings? They're yearly dated records, it seems very hard to believe that he only observed them prior to writing his piece.

P.S. - I do think it's a very good technical report, though I don't recall saying it's not.

<comment><USER32> As I understand it, the author is saying: "I got this data; this is what I got out of it & my read on it; why don't you have a play with it as well."

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> #NorthKoreaOffline

[http://www.NorthKoreaOffline.com](http://www.NorthKoreaOffline.com)

</comment><comment><USER42> Maybe the DDOS is just a distraction.

</comment><comment><USER43> Redirect

</comment><comment><USER44> Countdown until North Korea starts nuclear war with us after a vigilante counter hacks them

</comment><comment><USER45> Be cybercareful! You may have just cyberstarted a cyberwar!

Also, note that when the next forensic analysis of some hack occurs, the scanning IPs have now "communicated with IPs associated with North Korea". So any future activity of your IPs may be attributed to NK, by the FBI/etc.

</comment><comment><USER46> There is no way North Korea had the sophistication to hack SONY. Hacking requires knowledge of the latest security vulnerabilities. It's impossible to develop good hackers on such a censored network.

<comment><USER47> > There is no way North Korea had the sophistication to hack SONY.

Hacking doesn't necessarily require sophistication.

> Hacking requires knowledge of the latest security vulnerabilities.

Again, no.

> It's impossible to develop good hackers on such a censored network.

Also no. I can imagine being on a heavily censored network being a prime breeding ground for great hackers. Either way, if I were a nation state sponsoring a hack I would presumably give uncensored access to my hack team.

<comment><USER48> Totally. Indeed the times i have been more driven and successfull at hacking something, has been on the most restricted environments looking for freedom. bypassing the proxy for example trough icmp tunnels... when you already have the freedom there is less passion to hack something

<comment><USER46> If you try to break rules in NK, you're dead. Hacking culture and exploration doesn't fit in under a communist regime. No place to practice = no way to become a pro.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


An Estimate for Needed Retirement Savings - <AUTHOR> http://bucks.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/27/an-estimate-for-needed-retirement-savings/

<comment><USER2> Source: [http://www.aon.com/attachments/human-capital- consulting/The_...](http://www.aon.com/attachments/human-capital- consulting/The_2012_Real_Deal_Highlights.pdf)

10 pages of analysis for the conclusion that if you want to maintain your lifestyle for 23 years after you retire, you'll need 23 * 0.65 (no income tax on savings) * 0.75 (social security income) = 11 years income of savings.

So if you want to live for a year without working, you'll need to save a year's worth of income.

The analysis doesn't say whether that is pretax or post-tax (I'm guessing pre- tax), with is a huge distinction.</comment>


Lake Poopó, Bolivia's second largest lake, has vanished - <AUTHOR> http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Engineering_Technology/Proba_Missions/Proba-V_eyes_Bolivia_s_vanishing_lake <comment><USER2> "The three 100-m resolution Proba-V images shown here were acquired on 27 April 2014, 20 July 2015 and 22 January 2016 respectively."

"But the lake's shallow nature, with an average depth of just 3 m, coupled with its arid highland surroundings, means that it is very sensitive to fluctuations in climate."

These quotes leave me wondering; why did they chose to take these images in vastly different times of year?

<comment><USER3> It may correspond to availability of the satellite to take the photos of the area.

First the satellite has to be over the area. Second the satellite has to be free from other tasks to take photos of the area. From Wikipedia, the satellite's mission involves:

Proba-V will support applications such as land use, worldwide vegetation classification, crop monitoring, famine prediction, food security, disaster monitoring and biosphere studies.

Taking photos of a single lake in Bolivia may not be high on that list of priorities.

<comment><USER4> Interesting speculations, but that's not how these environmental monitoring satellites work. They are set up to get global coverage with this instrument every 5 days. The orbit is chosen so that this happens, to enable long-term time series of vegetation, land cover, etc., as you note.

It's a successor to other satellites like SPOT, and a competitor/complement to NASA satellites like MODIS.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Same thing happened to the Aral Sea: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea)

<comment><USER6> No the same thing did not happen to the Aral Sea. What happened to the Aral sea was far far worse and far far more of our fault (humans).

<comment><USER7> That was far far more the Soviets' fault, not "our" fault.

<comment><USER8> And the US eliminated the largest freshwater lake West of the Mississippi [1].

[1] (largest by area) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulare_Lake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulare_Lake)

<comment><USER9> A. Whataboutism is lame B. The Aral Sea was 10x larger [1] C. I do appreciate the irony of A D. the scale of both is mindblowing, so I upvoted you

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea)

<comment><USER8> Sorry: I meant that as a response to the notion that the Soviets made a unique error with the Aral (hence the "don't blame us" stated in the parent) rather than being a common symptom of water diversion worldwide. It was not meant as to be a whataboutism, which is an awesome word for bad moral equivalence. I am so stealing that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> TLDR;

The lake evaporated in span of 2 years. It's a shallow lake only 3m deep and this has happened multiple times, most recently in 1990s. The article looks more like an ad for satellite data exploration.

<comment><USER11> I was thinking the same thing. Tons of satellite pictures, no in depth information about the actual problem.

<comment><USER12> Hard to find a problem where there isn't one, it is a thing that happened, that has happened before, in one of the driest regions in the planet.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Nasa's earth observatory has good very high res images/ some analysis of the lake Poopó , with and without water.

[http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=...](http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=87363)

they have some images hand shot from the space station too (2005 lower res):

[http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=6494](http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=6494)

"Water levels in Lake Poopó are important because the lake is one of South America's largest salt-water lakes, making it a prime stop for migratory birds, including flamingoes. "

There has been a drought in the Western US too. Snowpack in sierra nevada.

[http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=85632](http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=85632)

I really like the earth observatory.

</comment><comment><USER14> It may seem weird, but lakes that come and go are a thing. Here's one in Australia that drained in the 1990s and is now making a comeback:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_George_(New_South_Wales)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_George_\(New_South_Wales\))

</comment><comment><USER15> Does this differ significantly from previously generated salt flats in the area? The article didn't seem to address arguably the more famous one in the area, Uyuni. (Which I recall reading up on when I played World of Warcraft and got sidetracked reading about salt flats on Wikipedia for.... too long)

</comment><comment><USER16> If this happens fairly often (within the last 30 years, according to the article), then how was the lake stocked with fish for local fishermen to have been making a livelihood on in the first place?

<comment><USER17> Um, the fishermen stocked it. Lakes near any significant human population are stocked or they don't have fish.

<comment><USER18> Sometimes birds transfer fish eggs from one lake to another. Or fish travel between lakes during flooding.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> I guess Quantum of Solace wasn't so far-fetched!

<comment><USER20> Honestly, I thought the villainous plot in Quantum of Solace was a little too realistic. Seizing control of a developing country's water supply? Isn't that a bit too old-hat and run-of-the-mill for the world's greatest criminal organization? Hell, if they were an American or British company, the CIA and MI6 would probably be helping them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> "There is no such thing as climate change."

<comment><USER22> Not to argue, but the article does say this isn't the first time the lake has disappeared. Wikipedia also adds that "The time period between 1975 and 1992 is the longest period in recent times with a continuous existence of a water body."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Poop%C3%B3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Poop%C3%B3)

edit: the article's title is actually, "Proba-V eyes Bolivia's vanishing lake" which is actually decent in that it seems to be trying to describe that the lake "vanishes" from time-to-time and that Proba-V is showing some views of it.

<comment><USER23> And at 3,686m about 12000' that wouldn't help evaporation either.</comment></comment></comment>


Apple's ARKit could be huge for virtual car showrooms and online sales - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/17/apples-arkit-could-be-huge-for-virtual-car-showrooms-and-online-sales <comment><USER2> If by huge you mean that in its current state it will be a nice novelty experience for some interested and tech savvy people, then I agree completely. On one hand cardboard VR is a huge success with likely millions of people who have tried it or heard about it. On the other hand it hasn't registered in most people's lives as more than a novelty, compared to the habit forming technology and life changing experience of mobile phones.

At the same time I have to acknowledge that ARKit is just the initial developer interface to future hardware products in the Apple ecosystem. When they announce Apple AR sunglasses with the same portability and form factor as your Ray Bans, then we can start talking about huge.</comment>


Blossom 1.0.0-beta.1 (SproutCore 3 candidate) - <AUTHOR> https://gist.github.com/83ac249f80f3fbc12855

<comment><USER2> I'm excited about people finally taking the leap and ditching HTML/CSS for web applications. It's ridiculous that we have to hack around a model that was designed for documents in order to write the kinds of interactive applications people expect today.

Take the browser and cut the cruft of HTML and CSS: what you're left with is a cross-platform JavaScript runtime with high quality graphics, audio, and networking libraries with a built in database. There's no reason such an environment couldn't compete with "native" applications.

Once WebGL and the audio APIs are supported on mobile devices with two or more cores things are going to get very fun.

</comment><comment><USER3> "Blossom is licensed under the GPLv3 for non-commercial use; commercial licenses will be available soon"

Is there anything in GPLv3 that would disallow a commercial website using the library?

(Blossom can also be used to generate native mobile apps, in which case you obviously need to buy a license for closed-source apps.)</comment>


Appian delivers rare IPO to Washington DC area's tech scene - <AUTHOR> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-business/wp/2017/05/25/appian-delivers-rare-ipo-to-washingtons-tech-scene/ <comment><USER2> I worked at Appian within the past five years for an internship. I'm less aware of their success business side, but their software seemed to be falling apart. Multiple hundred line classes were copied and pasted around, logging and exceptions were pretty much ignored, vital parts of their stack were deep within deprecated libraries and frameworks with no way out. It did not feel like they valued quality, and a bunch of people felt flat out incompetent.

That said, they've done super well for themselves. It sort of blows away this thought of successful startups being full of the best and trying to build the best product. I'm curious what will happen to them down the line.

<comment><USER3> Protip:

While _we_ care intensely about "high quality" software, we define it as "well-designed" or "well-abstracted" or "loosely couple" and all kinds of things that matter when you look at source code, customers care about:

1) does it solve my problem?

2) is it reliable enough? ("enough" depends on use case)

3) can I afford it? (not just cash but maybe TCO)

Edit: And this applies to most of the "hot startups" too. Ask anyone who has been at a major company through the growth years and ask how "good" their software was. Every single one will share horror stories about late nights, tight deadlines, horrible hacks, and "omg let's rewrite this whole thing!" arguments.

As things grow and stability becomes a priority (often customer-driven), things change for the better for the software.

<comment><USER4> Customers also care about:

4) How quickly can you fix it?

5) How quickly can you deliver this feature?

<comment><USER5> In my experience these two asks usually come from the early adopters and savvy customers, who are generally outnumbered by the (newer) customers who just want something that works and fits within a pre-allocated budget category.

One notable exception of late has been security fixes. A lot more enterprises have become more aware of the need to patch their systems quickly in response to CVEs etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I worked for a big finance conglomerate as a contractor and were were using an Appian service for doing authentication... We didn't really need it but it was part of the project requirements.

It seems like one of these companies that makes money by latching themselves onto the systems of large, inefficient corporations that don't trust their own engineers to do the work (even though they are capable).

At that company we were also forced to use Amazon Lambda for a lot of API work; it slowed us down a lot but the business demanded it.

<comment><USER7> >It seems like one of these companies that makes money by latching themselves onto the systems of large, inefficient corporations that don't trust their own engineers to do the work (even though they are capable).

Opportunity costs are a thing. Even if their engineers are capable and willing, it may not be the most productive use of their time.

Also, having worked for and consulted for many large, inefficient corporations outside the technology sector, Homemade software solutions have almost always been complete trash. The UX is generally extremely frustrating and they're buggy as hell.

These things are always done as a side-project and don't have the kinds of resources or project management expertise applied to them to get them done properly. Whether that's engineerings' fault or managements' fault is immaterial as the result is always the same. Why not send the software work outside and let your company focus on what your company is good at?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Appian was the first company I worked for out of college. It's good to see that they have done well, but it has been a long road for them.

After starting as a technical consulting firm and growing quickly for the first few years (they survived the dotcom crash by making inroads into the government and military markets), they decided to make a transition from consulting to software.

This ultimately seems to have been a good move, but it took them almost 10 years to figure out and fully execute (the transition started around 2002-2003, and they didn't really hit their stride until about 2011). I have to give Matt Calkins a lot of credit for pulling it off.

<comment><USER9> Long road on the flip side Matthew Calkins managed to get to the IPO with 54.7% of the company stock.

[http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=1149...](http://www.nasdaq.com/markets/ipos/filing.ashx?filingid=11493592#D363139DS1_HTM_TOC363139_15)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> As a "DC Area" startup founder, I wonder if we'll see any impact on the startup ecosystem as a result. I mean that's kind of the point of a startup ecosystem right? Having a few big exits spawn a bunch of other startups?

Given that I have never seen any of the people from this company at any of the places serious startup people seem to gather I'd say probably not.

<comment><USER11> Just out of curiosity, what do you consider "places where serious startup people gather?". I tend to go to the monthly JS meetups (which mostly seemed to have moved to IronYard for the time being, thanks to their generosity) when I have time...I've seen some other things like the monthly-ish series that ISL organizes, but those always smelled to me like it would be less "deep" so I never went. I went to a Hacker News meetup once actually (I think it was at Vapiano in ChT), and met a few nice folks but I don't think that ever happened again.

Overall, I'd say DC/Metro is a place with a pretty solid balance of interesting problems to solve, people with money who are willing to contribute to their solutions, talent and "runway efficiency". I don't know if the Appian IPO really changes any of that, per se, but I think the region is pretty good for startups - especially if you're willing to think outside the box with respect to how you get your funding / pitch your idea.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Well technically it is in Northern Virginia but saying "Washington, DC" sounds cooler I think. I've been guilty of that too, can't blame them. "Virginia startup IPO" doesn't have the same ring to it.

<comment><USER13> The lede says "Washington Area" and "Reston-based", so not exactly misleading. DC Metro area is commonly known to include NOVA and Maryland ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

<comment><USER14> Somewhat related, the DC/NOVA/Maryland divide is a struggle for software engineers trying to decide where to set down roots, but still have job flexibility. Because DC and Reston are an hour apart.

<comment><USER11> Nah. Silver line. I'm on jt right now. 35 mins to Foggy bottom.

<comment><USER15> This might be fine for 20 somethings, but for the older folks with families looking for homes, I don't think Foggy Bottom or the surrounding area offer any realistic real estate. Correct me if I'm wrong.

<comment><USER11> I meant that yoh can live in Reston with (more) reasonable housing costs (1600ish for a 3br 2bath townhouse 10 mins walk from metro) and take Silver Line to work in the city... you could also do it the other way if you are a 20ish who wants to live in DC and work in NOVA.

<comment><USER14> my friend did it the other way, bought a place near the Chinatown metro. He figures it is better to live near the hub rather than on one of the spokes.

<comment><USER11> True, but it's all tradeoffs. While not the murderhouse that SF/SV real estate is, it's still a little pricey in the middle of the Red line. You can get 3-4x the house if you go 25-ish minutes out on one of the "spokes" and still get to the hub pretty quickly. Even spoke-to-spoke isn't out of the question if you can stomach the extra 30 minutes or so.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Question for Appian users: is what they do differentiated and/or sticky? It seems like there are a bunch of companies out there that do the low-code BPM app thing.</comment>


I Will Build Your Prototype - <AUTHOR> http://iwbyp.chris-granger.com/

<comment><USER2> Good for you for offering this. For what it's worth, this would be more valuable if you expanded to python/django and ruby/rails. Yes, you can scrap something completely, but it's also helpful if scrapping isn't required. Anyway, keep it up! Sounds like a great service.

</comment><comment><USER3> Is this still valid? I thought he was working on the LightTable thing full time.

Previous Discussion (2011):

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2600650></comment>


DeepMind's Gated Linear Networks in NumPy, PyTorch, TensorFlow and JAX - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/aiwabdn/pygln <comment><AUTHOR> \- We have come up with implementations of GLN from the paper in NumPy, PyTorch, TensorFlow and JAX. Check it out here: [https://github.com/aiwabdn/pygln](https://github.com/aiwabdn/pygln) \- Comments, feedback, pointers, use-case suggestions are all very welcome :)</comment>


Lyft and Uber Start Accepting Rides in Vegas - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/15/lyft-starts-accepting-rides-in-vegas-uber-could-soon-follow/ <comment><USER2> About time...I have probably had more bad cab experiences in Vegas than all other cities combined.

One tip: the various Airport Shuttles from McCarran to hotels on the strip/downtown (and back) are a great deal...around $15 total for both ways.</comment>


One Year Later as a Startup Founder - <AUTHOR> http://www.kokev.in/2012/01/02/a-year-later-as-a-startup-founder/

<comment><USER2> "Strive for winning the small battles, if you can."

Interesting.

I am no entrepreneur but lead developers at a large corp. My scheme is to pick the battles. Usually not the small ones.

I always thought entrepreneurs would do it likewise, their pressure is surely even bigger.

<comment><USER3> Working in an established market and not being the first(timewise) there is actually about a series of small battles.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hmmm.. I read your About Page, and still dun get what your startup does... So when a business wants to advertise someplace, you actually install a TV or something in that place, and install the advertisement so it plays 24/7?

<comment><USER5> I don't know Kevin. But there's a video: <http://vimeo.com/23828318>

I think they have to enroll the locations first and then they play your ads on the locations you selected.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, if this analogy helps, we're trying to be like a Google AdSense in the real world using digital signage tech.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Wow! and what a great analogy on copywriting and marketing. Those two are the most difficult things to learn for a startup founder.

</comment><comment><USER7> Do the screens use any kind of web cam analytics to track engagement of your ads?

<comment><AUTHOR> Not currently, but that's coming shortly. The technology is still pretty new, but we're friends with AIMSuite (Intel) and have plans to use their solution in the future.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Good luck guys - this is exactly what it's like. Stay persistent.</comment>