The 6502 in "The Terminator" - <AUTHOR> http://www.pagetable.com/?p=64

<comment><USER2> Sadly no

      * UGLY FUCKING HACK TO WORK AROUND SKYNET RETARDATION

lines...

</comment><comment><USER3> Interesting that it's the same processor in Bender from Futurama.

<comment><USER4> David Cohen writes about the choice of Bender's processor: <http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/may09/8849>

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Actually, a lot of the major software from nibble magazine is still downloadable:

<http://www.nibblemagazine.com/nibble_disks.htm>

</comment><comment><USER6> This brings back all the sweet memories of my first computer Apple //c (which had a 65 _C_ 02) and the innumerable hours spent typing code into it from inCider magazine and learning from it.

AskHN : Accidentally got some dust in my eye. What do I do?

<comment><USER7> One of the early Make magazines mentioned a modern Apple II kit. Perhaps a fun side project? Assuming I'm not mis-remembering I'll fish out the reference and post it later.

<comment><USER7> Ok, I found the article (issue 3) but I'm slightly off in my recollection: it's for an Apple 1. <http://www.brielcomputers.com/wik/index.php?title=Replica_1>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Reminds of this lil' snippit from Stargate SG-1. The Daily WTF did a bit on it a while back.

[http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Stargate-Code-of-the- Replica...](http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Stargate-Code-of-the- Replicators.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER9> Terminator is available via streaming on Netflix by the way, in case anybody wants to watch it right away. I know I will :P</comment>


Ask HN: What is the percentage of people interested in embedded systems here? - <AUTHOR> I am keep posting things about embedded systems / electronics sometimes by using a throw a way accounts.
I also searched some key words and seen not much people answering questions around those topics.
What is the main reason? Any advice? <comment><USER2> Career-long embedded developer here.

I enjoy participating in HN to discuss technical topics and whatnot, but I don't count on it as an information source for embedded work.

You'll find a few people here noodling with various toy projects and the Rust Evangelism Strike Force pops in from time to time, but that's about it.

Is there a reason? I don't have one. Probably because everyone else here is trying to create the next Uber and isn't down in the trenches poking at flywires.

Maybe try /r/embedded if you want to chat about things or ask for homework help because your professor is too busy. The S/N ratio is pretty decent there.

<comment><AUTHOR> I was trying get info more around hw/sw startup bootstrapping, not pure embedded systems related topics. Rust is great might replace C in near future. I do like discussions around programming languages. I do believe Covid will change the definition of the next Uber a lot but i got your point.

I would love to hear your comments about the post i did recently, thanks in advance.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23025510](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23025510) [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23036604](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23036604)

<comment><USER2> Looks like you're getting feedback on /r/embedded, so there ya go.

Personally I think you've created a hammer in search of a nail. Still, it's a nice piece of work.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the reddit help. Will love to get your professional detailed opinion for my project, thanks in advance.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> I do not know the percentage, but it's not trivial. That seems safe, given the comments made in passing here.

I am interested.</comment>


The Silver Searcher: A code searching tool similar to ack, with a focus on speed - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/ggreer/the_silver_searcher <comment><USER2> This is a nice tool.

Other tools I recommend are

FZF or ripgrep</comment>


Ask HN: What do your non-tech friends think about custom TLDs? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Hard to say for sure, but when I've told people to go to sites with new TLDs, they ask if '.com' is at the end, and seem skeptical when I assure them I gave them a full domain.

<comment><AUTHOR> Interesting to hear. Even as a technical person I'm often a bit taken aback when a site's primary domain is a non-[.com, .org, .net, .gov, .io, .country, or .city]. For $0.88 at a certain registrar I could pick up a bunch for side projects, but even at that price I'm wondering if it's worth it.

<comment><USER3> I generally have to prefix my urls with www. just to ensure people realize they are domains: www.something.xyz. I'm also interested in this "certain registrar", if you wouldn't mind.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a good tip about prefixing with www. And sure thing. It's [https://www.namecheap.com/](https://www.namecheap.com/). You even get free WhoisGuard.

<comment><USER4> One thing to note is that "premium" names for those 88 cent domains are not 88 cents. I forgot what I searched but it was one of the 88 cent TLDs and it ended up being $32/yr (at least) and some were even higher.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I didn't understand if that was namecheap bumping the price up or a squatter trying to sell it. You may have to get a bit creative to find some good deals.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Does anti-Russian hysteria affect your business decisions? - <AUTHOR> I always state clearly that my business is located in Russia. It wasn't a problem at all for almost 10 years, but recently I have noticed a slight change of customer behavior - the tone of conversation with a customer sometimes changes dramatically when my business address comes into play. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find out what their political views were because they stopped responding :) So. Is the quality of a software product the only aspect you take into account when you make your purchase decision? Or a business address in Russia is a red flag for you? <comment><USER2> Oi pizdish, oi pizdish kak dushish... ne veryu ni odnomu slovu</comment>


In NYC? Looking for good user group meetings to go to? Here is a convenient calendar. - <AUTHOR> http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=nycusergroups%40brandorr.com&ctz=America/New_York

<comment><USER2> And here is one for Philly: <http://phillynewmediahub.com/>

And (not included yet) is the hackathon group I started last year: startups.philadelphia.groupomatic.com/

</comment><comment><USER3> Also: <http://newyork.garysguide.org/>

</comment><comment><USER4> Another NYC calendar:

<http://www.nyctechevents.com/>

</comment><comment><USER5> Dallas: <http://www.dallas-csharp-sig.com/DFWUserGroups.aspx>

Mostly microsoft focused meetings but a little ruby also.

</comment><comment><USER6> DC/Baltimore Area? Here you go: <http://www.dctechevents.com/>

<comment><USER7> Amazing...thank you! Are there any other specific groups that you'd recommend (any python groups)? I'm planning on moving to Fairfax, VA in the first quarter of 2009, so I want to know what would be a good way to get familiar with the area (tech-wise) and to meet some people. You can also use my contact info listed in my profile.

<comment><USER8> What brings you to Fairfax?

<comment><USER7> Girlfriend (civil engineer in Fairfax), desire to move out of Orlando after growing up here and living here for 16 years (though that still includes four years of undergrad in NC), my company also conveniently has offices in and around Fairfax, too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Portland Oregon has Calagator, a unified calendar for the tech community: <http://calagator.org/>

It's also a community driven open source project with multiple code-sprints per month!

<comment><USER10> Thanks! Calgator is open source and community focused, so we'd be glad to collaborate and discuss how to extend it to serve the needs of users in other regions. If interested, please get in touch with us at: <http://groups.google.com/group/pdx-tech-calendar/>

\--Igal Koshevoy, Calagator Developer</comment></comment>


Show HN: a bookmarking service that lets you monitor for content changes - <AUTHOR>

- Bookmarked pages are archived and content immediately indexed/searchable<p>- Search/browse your bookmarks without leaving the page you're on<p>- Optionally monitor any page - or part of page - for changing content. Optional email alerts.<p>- Random example use-case: monitoring a BBC news article for updates: http://app.bookmarkerpro.com/changes?fmt=html&id=958&newestid=964&scroll=0<p>It's an early beta, we'd love to know what HNers thought. Free to sign up, try out: www.bookmarkerpro.com <comment><AUTHOR> Clicky:

<http://www.bookmarkerpro.com>

[http://app.bookmarkerpro.com/changes?fmt=html&id=958&...](http://app.bookmarkerpro.com/changes?fmt=html&id=958&newestid=964&scroll=0)</comment>


$20,000 for a fast algorithm for a simple math game - <AUTHOR> https://www.elance.com/j/fast-algorithm-simple-math-game/32273252/

<comment><USER2> The linked article fails to say who owns the result. This reflects badly on the article's originators, who don't seem to be aware of the intellectual property issues.

If the originators really expected a response, they would describe the problem to be solved, and the conditions of the contract, up front.

Experienced developers will recognize the omissions in the description and require full disclosure before proceeding.</comment>


ME, FAKEGRIMLOCK: THE BOOK OF AWESOME - <AUTHOR> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/531215105/me-fakegrimlock-the-book-of-awesome

<comment><USER2> A genuinely curious question: are there any copyright or trademark issues that he may face for using the likeness of Grimlock, such as with the 3D heads? I hope not, but in this litigious world, who knows.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> FAKEGRIMLOCK is pretty much my favourite source of startup advice... so happy to see his book coming out!</comment>


IOS 4.3 sources are available - <AUTHOR> http://opensource.apple.com/release/ios-43/

<comment><USER2> Possible responses:

a) See! That was a lot of noise about nothing.

b) See! Without that noise they wouldn't have done anything.

<comment><USER3> I agree that b) is the correct interpretation of events. And I would add that they shouldn't be let off the hook if they are late again. However, if corporations see that:

a) the community's response to non-release is complaining

b) the community's response to remedying the non-releasal is more complaining

then the community is not giving very strong incentives for corporations to change their behavior. I think Apple should get some praise for releasing the code. Not because they were right all along, but because I would like the corporate world to see that there are good will benefits to playing by the rules. Stick, yes. But also carrot.

Good job for fixing the situation, Apple. We all like things much better this way. Let's not go through this again, okay?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If you aren't sure what they are - javascriptcore and webcore have their origins in KHTML, no matter how much of it has been replaced by Apple it's still from that, gcc and gdb are well known GNU parts. CCtools seems to have Darwin origins, they chose to open source it.

</comment><comment><USER5> The title is a bit misleading since it's only sources of a few tools used in Apple's iOS.

<comment><USER6> These sources are the same ones that Apple released for 4.2, 4.1, and so on.

Maybe Apple just didn't modify any of the other tools/libraries used in iOS (or the other tools/libraries have a license that doesn't require the modifications to be released.

<comment><USER7> Most of it(especially the javascript and webcore libraries) were present in iOS 1.0, and Apple was fairly quick on releasing the source then, so it was odd that Apple took their time releasing the source. The 4.3 releases took almost 2 months to get out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The release of this code should be an item on the product launch checklist.

<comment><USER9> All ice cream should be coffee flavored.

<comment><USER10> More like, "all legal requirements around the redistribution of code we used should be followed."

<comment><USER9> Yeah, you're wrong. Apple's acceptance of paragraph three of the GPL (assuming version two) doesn't require that "the release of this code should be an item on the product launch checklist." That's all I was saying: "Should" is a word handy for brow-beating. In usages like the above, it expresses an opinion, often one with little support.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What is this? Can someone give me an insight of these sources?

<comment><USER8> See <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2521488>

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This is a step forward, but they are still violating the license. Those releases do not have the necessary information to build a new copy, as required by the LGPL: no project IDE (Xcode) files and no makefiles for the iPhone.

And, as saurik mentions here (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2523786>), they do not even release the full source code! Even if you ignore the point about building your own copy, they are still violating the LGPL: releasing the code to those "WAK" classes is _not_ optional.

<comment><USER7> Only if it's it's statically linked.

If it's dynamically linked, all they need to do is release the source.

EDIT: There are also makefiles provided in the release.

<comment><USER13> _There are also makefiles provided in the release._

Are you sure there's a working build system included? There's a file named "Makefile", but it just includes "../Makefile.shared", which--as far as I can tell-isn't included. There's no XCode project file to be seen, so the build directions on webkit.org don't seem operative. Are you actually able to build this?

<comment><USER7> It appears that there is a "make-generated-sources.sh" script that appears to kick off DerivedSources.make. That looks like it's actually the makefile for the entire thing.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to my mac at the moment to actually tell you if this works.

<comment><USER13> The 'make-generated-sources.sh' script does exactly what its name says. It creates _source_ files. Take a closer look at DerivedSources.make: all of the (non-phony) _targets_ (start of a line, before a colon) are .c and .h files. It never even invokes a compiler or linker, and doesn't even reference the vast majority of the code, so it certainly isn't a makefile for the entire thing.

Also, you can run 'make-generated-sources.sh' on pretty much any Linux or UNIX (probably including Cygwin).</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Exxon CEO Says Big Oil Needs $21 Billion U.S. Aid - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-11/exxon-s-tillerson-says-higher-oil-taxes-won-t-help-u-s-budget.html <comment><USER2> Can you imagine 20 billion over ten years given to DARPA to come up with alternative energy sources? And mind you that in many cases energy companies don't share the profits from drilling done on public land.</comment>


TrashOut - locate all illegal dumps in cities and nature - <AUTHOR> http://www.trashout.me/

<comment><AUTHOR> What do you think about this app. Does it have chance to succeed?</comment>


Ask HN: How to parse emails like TripIt? - <AUTHOR>

Does TripIt write custom parsers for each potential email source (Expedia, Orbits, United.com, etc)? Or are they using some sort of parsing library that I'm not aware of?
I run a small CRM system for notary publics (notarycrm.com) and customers are consistently requesting the capability to forward scheduling emails (from banks/signing companies) into NotaryCRM. The idea would be that we'd parse the emails and add the signing to the customer's account - saving them a few minutes for each signing.
UPDATE: If anyone is particularly interested in helping me parse emails via SendGrid's Parse API, contact me - will trade your RRuby on Rails skillz for money. :) <comment><USER2> Most likely they wrote their own parsing library. I'm not aware of any out there, but it's pretty trivial to write code that will login to an IMAP system and parse messages.

</comment><comment><USER3> I wrote one for my startup paperhater.com Just using regexp.</comment>


White House calls for cell phone 'unlocking' - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323494504578340623936989386.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTTopStories#articleTabs%3Darticle

<comment><AUTHOR> The WSJ story just summarizes the outcome of the recent petition, but the comments thereon are hilarious/depressing.</comment>


The Android engagement paradox - <AUTHOR> http://www.asymco.com/2012/11/26/the-android-engagement-paradox/ <comment><USER2> I find those findings fascinating. As someone who carries two devices,an iPhone 4S (iOS 6.1 Beta) & a Galaxy nexus (4.2), I do find myself reaching for the iPhone more for subtle & seemingly unimportant reasons that add up in the long term to something really significant.

iOS polish & fluidity, the quality of the APIs upon which developers build their apps & the design language is still somewhat ahead of Android.

Don't get me wrong, In other aspects, Android rules supreme. The automatic app updates feature is very convenient.Google Now wipes the floor with Siri. Widgets are a welcome diversion from the the stale app grid...etc

That being said, other _simple_ tasks such as browsing the web are still more comfortable on an iOS device...& that despite the smaller screen which I'm really starting to hate.</comment>


Is TFS 2010 a better product than VSS? - <AUTHOR> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k28av/why_should_i_upgrade_from_visual_source_safe_vss/

<comment><USER2> Much better.

But VSS is so horrid, that's not really saying much.

Microsoft has never figured out the whole "team" aspect of collaborative work, and heavily relies on file locking to prevent things like merge conflicts. Whether you find this a plus or not is really up to you.

There are much better and cheaper options available.</comment>


AI Programmer (Clojure) - <AUTHOR> http://functionaljobs.com/jobs/90-ai-programmer-clojure-at-zenrobotics-ltd

<comment><USER2> Sounds awesome. I'd apply in a shot if I didn't have commitments here in the US. Always wanted to go to Finland.

I wonder how much Clojure is really running in the robots, though. GC pauses aren't really acceptable when you've got an actual physical feedback loop running. You'd have to use a language capable of hard-realtime processing for that, and use Clojure for higher-level AI and decision making.

<comment><USER3> They could be using Clojure for motion planning and something lower-level and more reliable for actually executing the plans.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The fact that there exists functionaljobs (even though there's just two) is cool enough. :)

<comment><USER5> Totally agree with you. cool enough.also _cool_ in Finland

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This sounds like a dream job! You get to solve hard problems with interesting languages, play with robots, and make a difference in the world.

The fact that exists makes me happy! And offers further motivation for me to learn Clojure :)</comment>


Mapping Student Debt - <AUTHOR> http://mappingstudentdebt.org/#/map-1-an-introduction <comment><USER2> It just looks like student debt is correlated to population density[0] and inversely correlated to median income [1].

The difference between the delinquency map and average loan balance maps shows that people from places with low median income are taking lower loans but are still struggling to pay it back perhaps due to lack of jobs.

I do have concerns regarding the scale used.

[0] [http://utahlandowners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MAP- U_S...](http://utahlandowners.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MAP-U_S_- Population-Density-by-County.png)

[1] [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/US_count...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/US_county_household_median_income_2012.png)

</comment><comment><USER3> What is very low and very high? I'm not sure my debt/income expectations match theirs so I'm not sure how to interpret this.

Was there data that I skipped over?

Edit: Yes I did miss the data:

> "somewhat high," for example, then it means that a zip code's average loan > balance is between 25 and 35 percent higher than the national average of > $24,271

<comment><USER4> Yeah, look at that definitely balanced scale. 2 levels labeled "low" and 7 levels labeled "high". Talk about lying with statistics. Smells like a project to be used as a political lever. Shame, since it's a very good idea otherwise.

<comment><USER5> I don't know. The debt level is relative to the national average, and it ranges from -100% (zero loans) to over 700%. It's not like they fabricated many 'high' levels, the distribution just has a long tail.

I think a diverging color map displaying continuous values would be more appropriate, but I'm hesitant to label it 'lying with statistics'.

<comment><USER6> It does correspond with the realities of college. Remember, you're hypothetically borrowing against future earning and, for all the griping about college expense, there are a large number of fields where debt is extremely high but future earnings are also.

I'd be interested to see this broken down by major.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Where's the data on the student's major and whether the university was accredited or a hoax university?

</comment><comment><USER8> In scrolling around, it looks like debt load corresponds to the locations of colleges. Seems simple that if you want to know where there is student debt, you look for students. The delinquency and income correlation is more interesting.

</comment><comment><USER9> Just my obligatory point that putting a color weighted percent scale on areas of varying size (counties) when the absolute population numbers in those counties varies independently of county size can cause some misleading impressions.

</comment><comment><USER10> Rate of delinquency seems like it would it helpful map to include. (As I read it, the "Delinquency" map reflects the average size of delinquent loans in the region, so it has a different denominator than the other maps.)

</comment><comment><USER11> It's funny how every kind of social pathology gets worse when you cross the Mason-Dixon line</comment>


Spend analysis of 6 years, 686 rides, and $12k spent on Uber (2017) - <AUTHOR> https://nealmueller.com/uber/ <comment><USER2> I think the real problem is that you had expensive cars. No shit you save money when you take ubers rather than owning a BMW M3 and (what I assume) was a decked out wrangler. If you bought a sensible car, your monthly costs could be much lower.

<comment><USER3> Hi, I'm Neal, author of this analysis. Yes, you nailed it. I was just thinking today about what older car (2014 or earlier) I could buy for $10,000 or less that had adaptive cruise control and lane assist. That would allow me to disengage mentally a little from driving without suffering depreciation. Is there a way to search for what's the oldest car (e.g. Civic) that has these features?

<comment><USER4> Please don't disengage mentally from driving. If you think you need to do that, take a break instead.

<comment><USER5> Don't knock adaptive cruise control until you try it. It is significantly better than plain-vanilla cruise control. I've found that when I use it, I tend to stop caring about if I'm driving "too slow" \-- it makes me a less aggressive driver.

<comment><USER6> My current car has it. The person you're replying to is still correct, if you need to "disengage from driving" then pull over and take a break.

Adaptive cruise control makes driving less stressful/more pleasant but you still have to be mentally there. No system is full proof, and certainly not at this stage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Comparing the costs of Uber against ownership costs of _2_ cars for _1_ person? Why not buy a third car and make your savings look even better?

<comment><USER8> He's counting depreciation of an M3 in there, too... why not buy a fighter jet and make the savings look even better?

He didn't give up his cars until uber pool, so for a great deal of the data he is using uber in addition to his regular car, which limits his uber expenses.

Because the largest portion of his savings comes from the shift to uber pool, this is completely invalid for anyone except a single adult. Anyone with a spouse or children, or anyone doing even average shopping, anyone not in a major downtown, will not be seeing these savings.

He's only traveling around town, and seemingly only using Uber less than once per day, even during his peak usage. Is he using public transportation? Google transportation? Friends? I don't see how one can get to and from work, and run errands, and go out in the evenings or on weekends, and average 200 rides per year (again, during his optimum savings period). Is he working from home most of the time?

He mentions renting cars for longer trips, but this is not included in his costs. In addition, his uber trips are all in SF... like, yeah, if you only travel within a major US city, transportation costs can be pretty low (and why not just use public transportation?).

All of this implies to me that, not only are his calculations wildly off, not only are his uber costs under-reported, but even with all that, the entire, incredibly ideal, situation is reproducible only by a very small minority of the population. Alternatively, the other interpretation is that he was wildly overpaying and under-utilizing his cars before.

Here is a more realistic calculation for a US resident: 30k car, 10 years 10k gas, 5k insurance, 7k repairs = ~5k per year.

vs.

4 trips per day, on average, for 1-2 persons @ $20 per trip = $29k per year. And that's being generous--I'm pretty sure my spouse and child and I would blow through at least $50k a year if we switched entirely to Uber, and we have a very typical travel pattern for the US.

<comment><USER9> He does use public transportation, but only makes a one word mention of it:

"My rides increased a lot in June 2016, when I sold both my cars. I'm solely reliant on Uber (and buses) to get around town in San Francisco."

<comment><USER8> Ah. So basically he is not saving money now, he was just wasting it before.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Since everyone is already weighing in on their experiences I guess I'll add my own,

I went 2 years without a car and it was great when I was in the period of my life where I wanted to be head down and studying to get a better job. I spent almost nothing on Uber because I used public transit or walked everywhere. I can count on one hand the amount of times I used Uber, seriously.

Even after I bought my house which is in a suburb kind of in Seattle I continued to go car-less which included a 3mi round trip walk to the grocery store. Didn't mind it much, just had to plan around the weather.

However I moved to the PNW so I could get outside and experience it, not spend my life in the city. Going hiking means 80-100 mile round trips easily on the weekend and Turo, reachnow, zip car were just not ideal for this. Cost is prohibitive if you're doing it every weekend. That's a minimum of $80-$100 * 4 if I go out just one day on each weekend.

I bought a beater truck for under $3k. It has 4wd and a bed to toss all of my gear in. It's the perfect vehicle. Insurance is super cheap, only need liability because who cares if it gets totaled it's already banged up. I can run to Home Depot and get stuff for my projects around the house, toss my bikes in the bed, do my shopping. It covers all the bases and gives me the connivence of not having to deal with finding a reachnow car or meeting up with someone for Turo, etc. One important caveat, I also do my own repairs so if you aren't mechanically inclined it might not be the right choice. I only drive the vehicle on the weekends and still commute via bike or bus to work.

I also noticed that because of my inherently cheap nature I wouldn't rent a vehicle to go do these things even if the end result is that it's cheaper than car ownership. My brain just can't get over the fact that I'm directly paying for the hike, or the trip to the store, etc. I think a lot of people also feel this way and idk how to overcome that kind of irrational thought, but in the end the opportunity cost of having a vehicle is worth it, if it means I'm actually getting out and doing things I enjoy instead of staying home or in the city.

<comment><USER11> I get the sentiment but I buy a new car because of safety features. I drive a Honda,will drive it for many years until something safe and cheap comes along

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> > What could $703/month buy you? Well, four years of $703/month and you'll > save enough to climb Mount Everest unguided.

I'm not sure the price tag is what's stopping me from climbing Mount Everest _unguided_ :)

<comment><USER13> hah, quite a bizarre choice of what to do with $33744

<comment><USER14> Not so much once you realize the author has actually climbed Mount Everest!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Compare this to Philadelphia, where a monthly Septa pass (that's bus+trolley+subway) is $96. That's a savings of $856/year over Uber. I have been carless for three years and my savings account is very happy now. Regional Rail passes are $105, so you don't have to live in the city, either.

<comment><USER16> Big supporter of public transit, but this is apples to oranges. Nine times out of ten, the Uber is going to get you where you want to go a lot faster, unless embarkation and destination are both on the same public transit line.

<comment><USER17> I suppose it varies by city, but to me we're not talking about comparing apples to oranges. We're talking about exchanging apples and oranges for bananas, just in different ratios.

I lived carfree in Milwaukee for a while (picking that as an example of a city that only has bus service), and the time savings really didn't seem that bad once I got used to it. A trip to one of the shopping malls on my side of town was about the worst-case scenario, and there it typically took ~40m on the bus, versus ~20m by car. I like reading and I had a Nintendo DS at the time, so that ~20m difference was spent doing what I would have probably done with the extra time, anyway. I was just doing it without a cat in my lap.

An easy trade, I thought, considering that I was typically spending no more than $10 a week on bus fare. Often more like $0, especially in the summer, when it was more fun to get around by bike. Owning a car or using a taxi service for my main way of getting around would have cost thousands per month. That's quite a few fewer apples, and not a whole lot more oranges.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The really frustrating thing about this analysis is he completely ignores mileage. However you split it, that's a huge factor in a vehicle's maintenance cost and depreciation. He compared maintenance on vehicle that clearly must be driven significantly more than he took Uber.

Since he also has two other vehicles, he was clearly using those to drive too. He's sold them now, but he doesn't mention anything about the cost of Turo which he suggests as an alternative.

I have no idea exactly what Uber breaks down to per mile, but ridester.com suggests $1 to $2.50 per mile. Let's assume it's as cheap as $1/mile to give him the benefit of the doubt and account for UberPool.

\----

At $1/mile, he traveled 12k miles over 6 years - or 2000 miles/year.

* Maintenance on 12k miles would basically be nothing. No major work should need to be done in a 12k window. Probably some wipers, some fluid changes, possibly a minor repair - let's just say it's $500.

* Gas - Let's assume 20 miles/galloon and $4 per gallon. $2400 over 6 years.

* Insurance - The most expensive part. 2000 miles/year is nothing, but insurance doesn't work that way. Let's assume a modest $500/year. - $3000

When you add that up it comes to roughly $6k left over. You can look at this two ways.

1\. Try to buy a vehicle in the $6k range and assume no-resale value. You're not going to get a great car, but it will be doable.

2\. Account for only depreciation. 12k is mostly negligible miles. The biggest lost will be due to aging. That being said, as long as you avoid relatively late-model year, you can purchase basically any mid-upper car and still break even (like an M3).

Plus, in both cases you get the benefit of actually owning a vehicle and not relying on 3rd parties.

\----

EDIT: He also mentions using Turo as an alternative for a car. That opens up the possibility of him renting out an own vehicle on Turo. An M3 would likely catch $100/day or more. Let's say $50/rental day gets to his pocket. If he rents a out his M3 just twice/month (e.g. one weekend) and assuming the driver hits the 100 mile/day standard. He'd add only 14.4k more miles (still not a lot) and make an additional $7.2k. That pays for depreciation and leaves him room to ride share while his car is gone.

<comment><USER19> 12000 miles in 6 years is 2000 miles a year, not 500.

<comment><USER20> 2000 miles a year is what I seem to drive in SF. 10000 is what I drove in Houston. Another example of how startups can be SF/Bay Area oriented.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> As others have noted, the depreciation and savings analysis is very misleading.

Bottom line is that without the cars, he spends about $390 / month on Uber, and likely that average may have increased given the extreme low summer outlier months. In some areas where parking or insurance is expensive, this could mean large savings. In my area (Austin, TX), the all-in cost of owning a car with insurance is minimally more than this figure. You could lease one brand new, moderately priced car + average petrol costs for about the same amount. You could buy a cheap car and depreciation + maintenance would be even less.

<comment><USER22> But so much of your mental time and energy will be wasted owning the car.

<comment><USER23> The few times I have been without a car, I avoided going anywhere because having to Uber makes it very real how much I'm spending just to go out each and every time. Like going to the park or to the grocery store. So instead I sat inside.

I'll never go without owning a car again. The ability to travel freely and not feel some psychological burden about doing it is more than worth the cost of a car to me.

NOTE: This is based on my experience living in Austin, Seattle, Memphis, and White Plains NY.

<comment><USER24> Had you considered a bike? I've lived in Austin, spent time in Seattle. Ditching the car and using the savings to afford a more centrally-located place in those places could make sense, especially when the alternative is sitting at home doing nothing. It's not that scary to bike in those cities. I always dislike going to the park in a car in general because it just feels like I'm using the laziest and most polluting travel option to go exercise and enjoy nature.

<comment><USER23> Definitely! I had a bike in both Austin and Seattle. I used it for commuting to/from work a few times a week and sometimes for picking up groceries. It just doesn't replace a car for me though, but it is an enjoyable addition (I didn't always live close to work, the climbing gyms I frequented were far from my home and office, my friends were spread out, and I like to go out hiking on weekends).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> The monthly savings calculation in this article largely based on the depreciation of a brand new BMW M3. I think it would be good to use an average vehicle depreciation in there for comparison.

<comment><USER26> The author says they had an M3 that needed replacing; they replaced it with Uber instead.

<comment><USER27> Yes. I don't think the poster you're replying to missed the author's position; I think they were just pointing out that it generalizes poorly, since the "savings" all pretty much came from that single source, which few other people share.

As the author said: their other car held its value. If he'd had 2x of that car rather than a BMW, the results would look wildly different. Most folks don't have that situation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Google cache link:

[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j_- ohh...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j_- ohhPT18AJ:https://nealmueller.com/uber/&num=1&hl=en&gl=in&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

Uber actually loses money on each ride. So I don't think the same analysis be hold long term, especially when the company starts to raise its prices.

WSJ recently wrote an article on how it was possible to live in SV for free thanks to the VC fueled economy. They gave example of a guy who financed his Mini Cooper using startup deals, which I think is a better deal than subsidized rides ;)

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-live-in-san-francisco- wi...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-to-live-in-san-francisco-without- spending-any-money-1525029628)

Archive link:

[https://archive.fo/PWVnU](https://archive.fo/PWVnU)

<comment><USER29> _Uber actually loses money on each ride._

This is only true if you're using referral credit. In well established markets (eg San Francisco) very few rides are subsidized, and Uber makes a healthy profit.

<comment><USER30> Not entirely sure about that, they have very extreme driver turnover and are constantly offering very expensive incentives to drivers.

I wouldn't be surprised if they are somewhat profitable in established markets but I'm not sure if it's 'healthy'.

<comment><USER31> For which companies are those driver driving post-Uber? There aren't many choices, SF specifically.

Talking about turnover. Any ideas how that's for Uber compared to Lyft et al.?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> If you don't buy BMW M3, then Uber won't save you 700/month. Figures look viable only because Vehicle expenses were $11,783 per year. ~The 2008 BMW M3 was depreciating in resale value $8,333 per year. ~

<comment><USER2> Exactly. He had two very expensive vehicles. If he leased or bought a used car that is not luxury, he could spend less than he does on ubers.

<comment><USER33> Sure, but now he has someone drive him around (another type of luxury). It's comparing two luxury experiences. Of course driving a beater or riding a bike would be even cheaper.

<comment><USER34> UberPool is hardly a luxury experience

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> I went carless about a year and a half ago in Los Angeles (wife still has a car) and it's been awesome.

I had a ratty 2006 liberty. Going through my bank history and tabbing up costs for the previous years I figured if I spent $25 bucks a day on Uber I'd be saving money. (Actually I spend about $18 / day)

Things I took into account were:

\- insurance

\- gas

\- parking tickets, garages and meters

\- maintenance (something expensive broke every few months)

\- Amex platinum gives a $200 credit / year for Uber

Qualitative-ish things:

\- time saved not parking (some days I'd spend 45 minutes trying to find a spot in Venice)

\- time saved not forgetting where my car was parked or walking a mile to it

\- I do all of my emailing during my rides

\- credit card points

I'll hopefully never own a car again.

Edit: also, zero road rage

<comment><USER36> I don't mean to be a downer here but you're essentially saying that paying for someone else's asset depreciation costs is cheaper than paying for your own asset depreciation costs plus the remaining value on a car.

The reason it's more expensive to own a car is because you also own the asset. And sure, cars depreciate ridiculously fast and are horrible stores of value, but your solution is mostly saving money by offloading some risk to another party.

<comment><USER3> Yes, offloading risk. I hope Uber pays drivers enough to justify the added risk.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> This analysis looks amazing. We're currently a two car household with one of the vehicles being a little older and slowly starting to lose some reliability. Before rideshares it would be pretty important to go out and find a newer, more reliable vehicle so I could ensure I make it to work. This winter after the car sat for a few weeks it wouldn't start. Rather than spend 30 min messing with it and being late for work I simply hopped in an Uber. When this vehicle does meet its eventual demise I will likely advocate for becoming a single car household.

The biggest hurdle ridesharing has in replacing vehicle ownership though is the one off scenarios where having a vehicle is just so valuable in terms of time and cost. We're in the middle of remodeling our bathroom. We did plenty of planning and sorted out all of the materials and tools we would need and made a giant list. I went to Home Depot and bought just about everything in one trip and loaded it in a truck and drove it home.

As the project has progressed though, there are constantly times where I find I need a tool, or need a different fitting for the plumbing, etc. I just hop in the car and head over to Home Depot quick and grab it. Uber would cost me about $15 round trip for each one of those visits. I haven't gathered the receipts yet to track how many visits I've made but I imagine it would add up pretty considerably. This is just one example. As an expecting father I can only imagine how much of a nightmare loading a car seat in an Uber would be.

I love having the option of a ride share, and I think its fantastic for the opportunity it provides those who many not have access to a car for various reasons. However, I'm not sure ridesharing will ever reach the point of being able to completely replace car ownership for the average American household. I'm confident we'll hang on to at least one vehicle for the forseable future.

<comment><USER38> Why wait? :) I did this a while ago (2car -> 1car, with a child), and have zero regrets. We now have two kids, and are still 1-car'ing it, with the occasional rideshare. It's fantastic not having to deal with the crap a less- used car comes with.

I wrote up my analysis, with a spreadsheet you can plug your own numbers into: [https://da-data.blogspot.com/2015/06/why-my-car-cost-more-th...](https://da- data.blogspot.com/2015/06/why-my-car-cost-more-than-taking-uber.html)

We chose not to go zero car for many of the reasons you mention (and, in fact, ended up replacing our 2007 ford focus this year). But going from two to one is very freeing.

Loading a car seat into a rideshare isn't bad, btw - the LATCH anchors make it almost routine once you're used to it. Our travel carseat is a little more twitchy, but none of it is very bad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> Speaking as an automotive mechanic, Uber/Lyft/taxi are functionally indistinguishable from a fleet vehicle after the first year of service with the notable exception that fleet vehicles enjoy cheaper parts and service.

Expect to see your brake/oil/air filter life cut in half. most of this is due to idling in a fleet-like manner a vehicle with no accomodation for greater- than-average idle times. Example: the crown victoria and F150 fleets sold to government agencies can easily sustain a 3-6 hour idle as theyre equipped with an enlarged intercooler so you dont cook the oil.

Suspension suffers but not appreciably as power steering fluid, which turns to laffy taffy pretty reliably in these types of vehicles. Tire life in some cases is notably shorter due to the prevalence of sidewall damage from mediocre drivers dragging or hopping curbs. Fleet vehicles are equipped with idler/pitman assemblies which, again, are cheaper to repair and service than the more complex and expensive rack-and-pinion...which also isnt as durable for fleetlike operations.

service times are also longer...so theres lost revenue. example: an AC service on a Lexus takes damned near 4 hours (I'd want the car for the day.) Service on a lincoln towncar? I might not even have to put the keys in the ignition. Theres actually a factory tool you can order from Mexico that will do it in about 11 minutes.

TL;DR: if you're driving for one of these taxi services, buy a fleet vehicle used or new.

<comment><USER40> I was not aware there were a subset of consumer vehicles that were considered 'fleet vehicles.' A quick google search doesn't show me: beyond crown vics and f150 (all of them?) how do I find the full list of fleet vehicles?

</comment></comment><comment><USER41> > Using uberPOOL, instead of uberX, I've saved on 301 rides * ($14.45 average > UberX ride – $10.66 average pool ride) = $1140 savings. In exchange, I've > sat longer in rides. That's 301 rides * 8 minutes extra minutes per ride on > average = 40 more hours in pool rides. $1140 savings over 40 hours is > equivalent to Uber paying me $28.50 / hour to ride uberPOOL.

Since he's paying Uber with after-tax non-deductible dollars, it's actually more like earning ($28.50 / .6) = $47.50 per hour.

<comment><USER3> True. Same holds for buying car, with post-tax dollars.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Interested to see how he'd fare under carsharing as opposed to ridesharing. It seems UberPool is about $30 an hour per hour, UberX $54. But car2go for example is around $20-25 depending on the car and city. (not available in SF) And that doesn't require you to share a car with other people (which is fine as a taxi service, but perhaps too intimate for many as a daily routine).

That having been said, in terms of 'car hacking' he should be able to do much better if he just bought a cheaper but reliable car. He never owned the car for status purposes, his previous choice of car seems like a bad benchmark to compare Uber to. 8k depreciation is just crazy, might as well just lease at that point or buy a small, cheap japanese car, like a Honda Civic or something. Maintenance is a few hundred bucks, you can buy em for two years worth of his BMW depreciation, pretty fuel efficient. I think ridesharing is great, but you shouldn't compare it to a newly bought $80k BMW benchmark imo.

<comment><USER43> In 2010 I bought a Nissan Versa for around $10k (lightly used). It still runs like a champ, the door handle has been replaced, a few belts, tires, oil, etc. However, all the repairs in 8 years is less than $5k.

That's around $700 a year, and the damn thing has 165,000 miles. Still starts, drives, no rust. Should easily be able to pull 200,000 miles off of it (or another 2 years). I think the car today is still worth a ~$1k - $2k.

<comment><USER44> But to compare it to car and ride sharing you need to add insurance, fuel and parking cost.

Also, 165 k miles and you never had to change the timing belt, break pads etc? Does the 5 k$ include all those costs?

<comment><USER43> Yes, $5k covers this costs. A timing belt or break pads are $100 - $200 for the whole thing. Insurance isn't included sure, nor is gas.

According to my mint, on average I spend $500 / year on insurance (two cars) and gas is $1000 / year. I also get things like freedom to drive cross country (which I've done) or go to national parks. Which adds value.

Take all that and its still what:

$8k + $4k + $10k + $5k = $27k

For 8 years... And I gurantee I travel more than 686 rides, as I drive pretty much 365 days a year. Plus it has some value.

In many cases, as with most things, convenience comes at a premium. That's what ride sharing is. I use it too when traveling, but the car is way cheaper long term.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Is Uber's plan more like keep making loss and keep pushing the world to a state of rent a car for each ride and then get to a state of not own any car and then ones we get to a state of no one owns a car and every one takes a Uber then just keep jacking up the price at will and make more money out of us, and at that point we wont have a car and instead of buying one we will better say pay 5$ extra and take Uber and eventually reach a state where we spend twice the amount or owning a car per month on Uber and some smart guy figures out this and then we all go back to owning a car using Uber rarely at times of need.

Y go the long route we can simply stay in the current or previous state and use it like a taxi rarely wen needed.

<comment><USER46> I think the endgame is self driving vehicles which would hopefully bring the price down.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I wonder how much his rides would have cost if Uber didn't classify him as a 'frequent rider':

[https://therideshareguy.com/uber-is-ripping-off-frequent- rid...](https://therideshareguy.com/uber-is-ripping-off-frequent-riders-and- heres-how-to-avoid-it/)

</comment><comment><USER48> > car ownership cost $11,783 per year, most of it depreciation

Does depreciation even matter. Most people don't sell their cars.

<comment><USER49> Here, let me rephrase: the expensive part about car ownership is purchasing cars, not gas, insurance, or maintenance.

<comment><USER50> Agreed, but now that the problem has been identified, why do so many people continue to finance or lease new cars?

Car maintenance isn't that scary if you have a steady income and buy something rational (90s japanese instead of 2000s range rover)

<comment><USER51> Car maintenance requires the most expensive thing of all, time. Plus tools, plus experience. Once you take apart something on your car, if you can't get it back together, you're out of luck.

You also have to be physically strong and able to get to lug nuts and other rusted connections loose. I highly doubt most women can take tires off and lift them and put them back on, especially for SUV.

I think oil and air filter changes can be done by most though, especially if they get a fumoto valve. I would hesitate to recommend brake jobs for most people though.

<comment><USER52> I highly doubt most men can take tires off and lift them and put them back on, too.

<comment><USER53> I thought that was Bloke 101. Actually, the hardest part is getting the lugnuts off. When your tyres were fitted, they likely used air tools to put the nuts back on. I've found you always need to ensure you can remove them with the spare hand tool later - otherwise you may end up with a flat somewhere and be unable to remove the wheel.

<comment><USER54> This is where you put a length of pipe in the car. Much easier, even for women and girls.

All it takes is a couple feet to move the torque required into the lower end of human capability.

<comment><USER55> If a normal human cannot loosen the lug nuts with the provided wrench, they are on too tight and doing damage.

<comment><USER54> Agreed, in that the fasteners get stretched, fatigued, difficult to manipulate.

But it still happens. Having a means of greater torque gets past that failure condition and reduces the work burden.

And that's a net good. Older people, young, small, women with nails, guys who may not be very strong, someone hurt or sick all see a much improved task, well in bounds for them.

This is precisely why I brought all my kids up knowing these things. Same for anyone I've helped. I'll leave it with them and just go get another lever. cheap.

Better to be equipped to get this done than be stuck, merely understanding one should not be, but is anyway.

A small extension of this thinking means equipping the vehicle with common sense, useful tools. BMW does this from the factory. Most go unused, but its ultra cheap insurance. May actually end up applying to another vehicle. All good.

It really doesn't take much to equip a vehicle for trouble cases. Anyone who does is likely to get a nice return on that modest investment in skill and gear at some point in their lives. This is true even when their skills are somehow lacking, or they become physically unable somehow.

Getting help means people, and it often means tools. Having both is again, cheap insurance.

Talking about a damaged fastener on your way from the trouble incident is a great problem to have when compared to the side of a road.

<comment><USER55> No, it is bad because your brake calipers/drums get warped from too much torque.

The fastener problem is real too, but not nearly the potential safety hazard as the damage to the brakes.

<comment><USER54> Sure, it's bad. But the driver does not know that, may never know that, unless they actually do work on their fasteners. They are not likely to do that work, until they must, and that's on the side of the road.

And, given they must do that work, having the means to complete it makes all the sense in the world.

Nobody has to tighten anything that way. I've never shown, nor recommended people do. It's all about having the means to change a tire, should that need arise. And that means removing the fasteners.

So, I'll tell you what. I'll continue carrying a lever, and will continue to not be stuck somewhere ugly, and you do whatever you want.

Everyone can and should express concern when the job is done poorly.

Nobody should be stuck because it was done poorly, unless they want to be, and I for sure don't. Nor does anyone I know.

<comment><USER55> I agree that you should have the lever just in case. However if you ever need to use it you should fire the last shop that worked on your tires.

<comment><USER54> Damn right, unless one lacks strength.

I'm getting older. Can do it. Just don't want to. May not be able one day. There is that too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> One thing I think that is overlooked here is drinking alcohol.

Even if you drive and pay for the car payment and insurance at a very cheap rate of 200/month for both, there's gas and maintenance which should be at least another 50-100 per month.

But if you're a drinker even casually or you go out just on weekends you will have to uber and leave the car and incur uber costs regardless. After work Happy hour? drink or two at the end of office day? Can't drive.

Point is if you are a drinker for whatever reason there's huge perks to uber and not having a car. Also tax wise uber being used as transportation versus a vehicle where commuting is not deductible(starts from place of work not to as contractor). Overall the tax write offs and being able to drink is a huge perk should your lifestyle be similar of course.

</comment><comment><USER57> This seems to assume that there is not a daily commute. 267 rides for the whole year is low if one were to need to drive to work. The author never seems to mentions what they do on their day to day commute, but I guess if they are a Googler there is probably a free bus?

<comment><USER58> Yeah, google has a bus system. If he was going to/from work every day w/ uber that would be and additional ~470 rides per year, and for him they would be extremely expensive (SF <-> Mountain View).

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Sure, you save a lot of money if you're pitting uber vs $50,000 of currently depreciating BMW that was bought new for $80k. If the author had bought a reasonably priced car (TM) the calculations and conclusions would likely be very different. Hell, his second car is reasonably priced (or reasonably old), but the egregiousness of the first car still invalidates all his conclusions. Had he had a reasonably priced car, there's no way uber would be cheaper.

</comment><comment><USER60> I can't read the website, hug of death maybe? I would like to point out that in some other countries Uber fare prices are much higher. I live in The Netherlands and I remember 1 km to equal about 2 euro's, whereas in the US it would equal to about $1.25, meaning that Uber is twice as expensive in The Netherlands. I don't know how it is now, but my point is that it is quite country dependent.

<comment><USER61> But people in the US need to travel further since it's infrastructure is all built around cars. Netherlands isn't as focused on cars, more bikes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER62> I live in London, UK. I can't drive. Last time I was behind a wheel it was 1999 and I failed my driving test.

I get the train places and taxis the other end (Uber if the city allows).

I'll admit a few times a year I think it would be nice to drive and I intend to take my test again one day but It's down list of stuff do with learn the banjo and work on my Haskell

</comment><comment><USER63> Cached link (site was down for me) [http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j_- ohhP...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j_- ohhPT18AJ:https://nealmueller.com/uber/&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

</comment><comment><USER64> You can't really compare owning a M3 to riding Uber though. If you are a type of person who cares about how fun your car is, Uber is not an alternative for a M3. If you're the type of person who only cares about going from point A to B, you shouldn't have bought a M3 in the first place.

</comment><comment><USER65> Am i the only one that finds Uber a lot more expensive then local, traditional taxi rivals?

In the UK just outside London Uber's quotes last Friday and Saturday night were 50%-100% hire then other competitors.

<comment><USER66> It depends on region, daytime and traffic a lot.

E.g. in my area sometimes it's much cheaper than its competitors (up to 20% difference) and MUCH cheaper than a standard call taxi (up to 50% difference), sometimes it's a double from competitors prices. You just have to catch the right moment. I even have an application for my local region which estimates prices in different services right now and suggests the cheapest option.

Abroad (in countries like India) Uber (or similar services, e.g. Ola) is the easiest way to get an honest price without heavy bargain (which is also time consuming) and complicated explanations where you wanna get.

</comment></comment><comment><USER67> I'm curious as to what this will look like with using e-scooter rentals to replace some of the shorter rides.

</comment><comment><USER68> Data is as of 2016. Would be curious to see a follow up post on this, especially the comparison with Lyft.

</comment><comment><USER69> Why would the measure be against owning _two_ cars? What single person with no kids needs two cars?

</comment><comment><USER70> But you can get hotter girls with M3 :)

</comment><comment><USER71> the site is down so I don't know how many miles his commute is.

but what if he factored in riding a bicycle when it isn't raining (into work) and using Uber on days when it's raining in the mornings?

<comment><USER18> He doesn't address mileage at all (shocker). Based on a $1/mile estimate, he traveled about 12k miles over 6 years (500 miles/year).

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> How come noone is pointing out that paying 12041 to Uber is paaying 12041 to undermine society by ignoring the rule of law and to roll back protections organizer labor achieved over a hundred years? Shame on you.

<comment><USER73> If what Uber is doing is illegal, why are they allowed to continue operating?

<comment><USER74> Truly an awful line of reasoning. To add a little substance to that comment per HN guidelines: they could be being investigated now, the gov may not have caught up with their illegality yet, etc. etc. etc.

<comment><USER73> right, and the comment that I was replying to was just assuming that it was illegal even if they haven't been convicted... I know nobody likes Uber here, including me, but it's a bit of a witch hunt</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Child porn scene correlated with Google maps to caught pedophile - <AUTHOR> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fkp.ru%2Fdaily%2F24522%2F669961%2F

<comment><USER2> "However, law enforcers homeland kangaroo decided to find out where strawberries lover took the forbidden video."

<comment><USER3> "The police detained Australia."

Sounds like a huge operation. By the way, I also love strawberries. Does that make me a bad person?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I am sorry, but the translation is just too dreadful. Can someone please post a quick tl;dr.</comment>


Pandik - monitoring tool for web services, self-hosted Pingdom alternative (Go) - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/oguzbilgic/pandik

<comment><USER2> This looks great, but I couldn't get it to work. Do I need to create handlers for the notifiers?

        2013/09/22 21:56:54 not suppported notifier: mail
        2013/09/22 21:58:20 not suppported notifier: sms
        2013/09/22 21:58:42 not suppported notifier: twitter

<comment><USER3> Yeah, those notifiers are not implemented yet.</comment></comment>


Reflections on Learning Rust by Building Punchtop - <AUTHOR> https://hyperbo.la/w/reflections-on-learning-rust/ <comment><USER2> >The most frustrating part of using Clippy is that it did not force a reanalysis of all packages in my cargo workspace when invoked multiple times.

This is because the author used `#[warn(clippy::all)]` instead of `#[deny]`. Warnings do not fail the build, so subsequent rebuilds will be no-ops. If you're at the stage where you've fixed regular compilation errors and are only fixing clippy lints, you should probably change that to `#[deny]`. (I personally keep it at `#[deny]` from the start.) Or run clippy as `cargo clippy -- -Dwarnings` to treat warnings as errors.

>Linking to code units in rustdoc was hard to do correctly since there were so many ways to do it.

If you're planning to publish the crate to crates.io and are okay with relying on docs.rs to host the docs, then you can rely on the fact that docs.rs uses a nightly rustdoc and use nightly-rustdoc-specific features. Specifically you can use

        [`Foo`]

to create a link to whatever `Foo` happens to be in the code scope.

>My one complaint is that `RUST_LOG=debug cargo run` dumps all of the verbose debug logs from cargo while your program is being built.

You would use the env_logger builder to parse a different env var like "PUNCHTOP_LOG", instead of the default "RUST_LOG".

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the suggestions and code review via blog post ;)

You are correct that `#[deny]` is what I want with Clippy.

The env_logger builder is something I didn't know about. The homepage for the docs does not even mention it - [https://docs.rs/env_logger/0.6.0/env_logger/](https://docs.rs/env_logger/0.6.0/env_logger/). I agree that I should depend on my own env variable, but should cargo not do the same?

<comment><USER2> Well cargo and rustc are both first-party Rust tools, so it's expected that they would use "RUST_LOG". I _have_ wondered why env_logger defaults to using it instead of requiring you to specify which env var you want to parse, but it is what it is.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me Arnavion. I've applied what I've learned here: [https://github.com/lopopolo/punchtop/pull/1](https://github.com/lopopolo/punchtop/pull/1)

:)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> "Punchtop is an audio game"

No, it is not: it is a drinking game (as the Wikipedia page linked by the author clearly states). Music is only incidentally used to mark the passing of time: a timer works just as well.

Here is what is usually meant by "audio game": [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_game](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_game)</comment>


Mendelian Randomization: getting genes to run randomized trials for you  - <AUTHOR> http://www.jgc.org/blog/2010/01/mendelian-randomization-getting-genes.html

<comment><USER2> My lab has done lipoprotein Mendelian randomization. It is certainly a useful technique. The article linked here doesn't really address any of the technique's shortcomings, and those are important to know. For example, population stratification can affect your conclusions, and pleiotropy can lead to biased enrollment. For more info, see (free article) <http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/163/5/397>

</comment><comment><USER3> "In the case of low serum cholesterol there's a specific allele associated with Apolipoprotein E. The variant Apo E2 is associated with low serum cholesterol. And because of Mendel's law of independent assortment it will be assigned randomly in the population." Wait, what? This is only true for a population in which everyone has one parent with Apo E2 and one without it. The post seems to skip over that important caveat.</comment>


Doctors use copyright assignment in patient contract to stifle bad reviews - <AUTHOR> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/05/medical-justice-stifling-speech-patients-touch

<comment><USER2> This sounds like an excellent deal for patients. I mean, just look at this contract: [http://doctoredreviews.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/piedmont....](http://doctoredreviews.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/piedmont.pdf)

 _Both Physician and Patient will work to prevent the publishing or airing of commentary about the other party from being accessed via Internet, blogs, or other electronic, print, or broadcast media without prior written consent._

So, if Greg Gossip starts blogging about Pete Patient, who has recently signed such a contract, it would appear to be up to Dan Doctor to put a halt to Gossip's careless commentary, or indeed any public commentary about Patient whatsoever. That looks like a minimum of 3 years' worth of reputation management services, and comes without any restrictions on judicial forum or dispute resolution in the event of any disagreement about the issuer's failure to perform.

All I have to do is keep my own trap shut, and I get my very own Internet White Knight/PR agent? SIGN ME UP.

<comment><USER3> On the other hand, what constitutes "working to prevent the publishing or airing of commentary" may well be fairly minimal. I can imagine a response of "we wrote to the publisher and asked them to not publish anything about you again." I certainly would be wary of any contract with a PR agent which imposed so little in the way of concrete obligations. Even if you are able to enforce this condition so as to require serious effort by the physician, they will be able to enforce a similarly burdensome condition on you in retaliation.

<comment><USER2> Surely you jest - this is a premium legal product!

<https://www.medicaljustice.com/web-defamation-purch1.aspx>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> One thing worth noting: Doctors aren't able to respond to reviews at all. If a patient posts a completely baseless, factually untrue review of a doctor, the doctor cannot say anything due to privacy laws regarding the patient. This is in comparison to local businesses on a site like Yelp, where a business is allowed to talk about a customer's situation if the customer posts something defamatory. The doctor's only recourse in such situations is to sue the patient, something which is a) expensive b) time consuming and b) generates bad publicity. Not saying that patients should be forced to sign such agreements, but it's worth noting that the playing field is not level.

<comment><USER5> That is not entirely true. HIPAA rules pertain to individually identifiable health information - one must be able to use the information and identify the person it is connected to. Online reviews are typically anonymous in nature, and the average person reading them would likely not know the actual identity of the individual by the person writing it or the physicians response.

<comment><USER4> But what is 'personally identifiable'? Say a patient had a complaint about the cost of a visit, and stormed out of the office saying 'screw you' in the waiting room, and the review noted this. Other patients who were in the waiting room would likely be able to identify the patient. Would a doctor responding to the (anonymous) complaint, noting details about a patient's illness constitute personally identifiable information?

It's not easy from a doctor's perspective to identify such situations, and it's a very sticky area. Given that it's a sticky area, do you think any doctor would risk crossing the line? There are large legal risks involved here.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is pretty messed up. I hope this gets tested in court.

<comment><USER7> Agree on the messed up, but I'm not so sure about the hoping it gets tested -- it could go the other way.

What's really insidious about this (obvious -- but I have to rant) is that the general public really doesn't understand copyright, and if this signing over of full copyright (vs. partial -- right to sue -- overturned in that recent righthaven) is held up, this could become standard practice for all doctors and even other services. I know I'd never sign one of these, but I'm betting most people who aren't aware will just sign it away and won't even think about it.

Any copyright lawyers out there who can talk about any kind of precedents with this that might apply? (BTW: Seems like the EFF site is currently down? Read part of the article and now that I'm going back site won't load)

<comment><USER8> IANAL, but I've spent some time on these topics, and in the end the only thing that matters is the result of some court case. But non-authoritatively:

It seems to me that if you were willing to go to court and defend yourself, you'd have a very strong case that posting your review is covered under fair use. Of the four factors of fair use testing [1] (which is to say, I'm talking about _real_ fair use and not the nebulous Internet "I can do whatever I want with whatever I want if I just say the magical words 'Fair Use'" version), the purpose of the use and nature of the work are probably solidly on your side, and there is definitely no damage to the market value of the work (bearing in mind that refers to the value of the _review itself_ , not any effect it might have on the doctor's practice), to the extent that I can say "definitely" without a legal ruling. The problematic case is that you'd be posting the totality of the work in question but I suspect it would not be hard to find a judge that would still agree that your First Amendment rights overrule that concern, especially given that we're talking about a commercially effectively- worthless work and it's not very large.

I'm not sure fully owning the copyright is really enough to prevent people from posting a review. I also would imagine a strong case could be made for even going back behind the standard 4 fair use factors and returning to the reason they were created in the first place, which is that while the Constitution grants Congress the right to write laws about copyright, free speech is in the First Amendment and where there are conflicts, the amendment wins, at least in theory. The fair use tests are intended to harmonize the two. Use of copyright as a speech restraint is a fundamental perversion of the whole system, not just morally (which doesn't really matter to this analysis) but _legally_.

I speak solely on the matter of copyright assignment; if the contract contains other non-copyright restrictions on posting reviews I have no opinion at all, even if I could see them. I am also not addressing the possible ways in which this could be considered an invalid contract clause in general, such as [2].

[1]: [http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/...](http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-b.html)

[2]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability>

<comment><USER7> Thank you for posting this -- very informative!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Yeah, I saw this on the Canadian CBC National news last night. The company must obviously be in a PR push right now.

If a doctor ever asked me to sign something saying to keep my opinions to myself, I would simply not use that doctor. If they were good, they shouldn't worry about what people will say about them.

<comment><USER10> If I need medical care and that clause is paragraph 11 in the small print on the back of the patient check-in form, it's pretty doubtful I'll even notice that I agreed to it.

I'd love to see an example of how this gets used by doctors in the wild, to make it easier for me to protect myself against such absurdity.

That said, if my PCP asked and I had pressing medical concerns, I'd despise making the choice of 'free speech' versus 'need medical care', but I'd certainly choose the medical care.

<comment><USER11> Contracts aren't enforceable under duress or coercion. If you have pressing medical needs you aren't in the mental state to agree to anything. Practically any lawyer can get an agreement like that tossed in a minute.

This is why pre-nups become unenforceable once someone gives an ultimatum (ie. Sign this prenup or I won't marry you) and why both parties will have lawyers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Heard about this last year at a Defcon panel. Some doctor doing 'hugging therapy' for children that kept getting people's reviews and forum posts removed with DMCA

</comment><comment><USER13> I'm a doc. I have no idea of the legality of such "contracts", but it doesn't matter - such a practice is completely unethical.

Nor is it going to help a physician when a patient makes a complaint to your medical licensing board.

If you're doing your job as a physician you aren't a "provider" to "consumers" - you are hopefully a professional working in the best interests of a patient or population of patients _regardless of your own personal interests_ \- this horseshit obviously has nothing whatsoever to do with that goal.

<comment><USER14> Does complaints to medical board actually get a fair hearing? I imagine it would be a little like complaining about the police to the local sheriff.

<comment><USER15> I'm a doc from The Netherlands so can only comment on our system. Here when you file a complaint it will be sent to a local commission first. This commission consisting of doctors will look at the viability of your complaint. This commission consists of doctors working in the same field as the doctor whom possibly did something wrong but cannot have close relations to the doc being investigated. If they see a valid case they will send it to a medical court consisting of doctors (3) and legal professions (2) who will judge the case.

So if a way it is like 'complaining about the police to the local sheriff'. However all commissions consist of multiple people from different hospitals. I don't think it's a 100% fail-proof system but by having MDs look at the case first a lot of cases that will never ever lead to a penalty will be filtered out.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Ah, the EFF. Self-proclaimed defender of copyright, yet completely clueless when it comes to contractural rights...

The post refers to a non-disclosure agreement, not a copyright assignment. The whole point of the business model referred to is that patients can't even voice any opinion about the doctor, so it never gets to the stage where "copying" is an issue .

<comment><USER8> From the contract as linked above by anigbrowl:

"If Patient does prepare commentary for publication about Physician, the Patient exclusively assigns all Intellectual Property rights, including copyrights, to Physician for any written, pictorial, and/or electronic commentary. This assignment is in further consideration for additional privacy protections provided by Physician. This assignment shall be operative and effective at the time of creation (prior to publication) of the commentary."

But it is fair to point out that you are correct that there are many non- copyright related clauses as well. You just aren't right about it being unrelated.</comment></comment>


ProtonMail takes aim at Google with an encrypted calendar - <AUTHOR> https://venturebeat.com/2019/12/30/protonmail-takes-aim-at-google-with-an-encrypted-calendar/ <comment><USER3> I recently left ProtonMail and went back to Fastmail. My reason was that they will never be able to fully support IMAP and now CalDAV because of the encryption they use. I grew to accept that email is not for secure messaging and my paranoia of "I'm being watched" just went away.

If you need secure messaging, use something other than email.

<comment><USER4> I came to a similar conclusion. You should write every email as if it were public, because it's entirely likely that it will be. They can be forwarded, made public through legal discovery, or exposed in a data breach (eg. Sony/North Korea).

Forget security for a second, imagining every email as public record will make you more considerate and less biased writer. And from a business perspective, email should be viewed as a public legal record, because in some cases it will be used that way.

That's not to say that there shouldn't be private messaging options, it's just that email isn't one of them and was never really built to be. PGP was always sort of a tacked on solution with a lot of faults (no forward secrecy, plenty of meta data leakage, usability issues)

All that being said, I still left Gmail for Fastmail. Just because I consider every email I write to be public doesn't mean I want Google getting a free pass to mine and sell my data.

<comment><USER5> I agree with most of what you have written, but this:

> doesn't mean I want Google getting a free pass to mine and sell my data.

AFAIK, they don't do that with gmail. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

We need to hold Google's feet to fire on privacy, but it is also important that we do not exaggerate or distort the facts.

<comment><USER6> Unlike most other responders, I generally trust Google not to do this. Everything they say they don't do has been confirmed to me one way or another by people working there that I trust.

They may make money off ads but I don't think they have any real incentive to lie about what they're doing. Because most of their users don't actually care. I would be curious if anyone knows of any scenario where Google has outright lied about what they do and don't do with information, because I've never heard of it.

For me, I moved off gmail for other reasons: my email is too important to randomly lose access to because e.g. their youtube AI thinks I'm spamming a channel on Youtube. I look at all my data in Google as if I might lose access to it forever some day, because someday I might, with zero recourse.

<comment><USER7> What exact behavior of Google are we talking about here? I'm pretty sure they do mine emails for their own ad targeting. On the other hand, I'm equally sure they handle the information securely and don't pass it on to anyone else.

<comment><USER5> > I'm pretty sure they do mine emails for their own ad targeting.

They do not. See [https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6603?hl=en](https://support.google.com/mail/answer/6603?hl=en)

"We will not scan or read your Gmail messages to show you ads."

<comment><USER8> > "We will not scan or read your Gmail messages to show you ads."

that reads to me like ""We may do it for other purposes."

<comment><USER9> They obviously do, as does every mail provider that filters spam, at a bare minimum.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I moved over to Fastmail from ProtonMail a few weeks ago. I think if you value the encryption and privacy and don't mind the lack of basic stuff like threading in the mobile app or IMAP integration, ProtonMail is fully worth it. That said, for me I just want a well featured email/calendar service that can replace gmail once Gewgle fucked us over with Inbox. Fastmail does that for me and provides a lot less friction whilst doing so.

ProtonMail feels like a one-trick pony to me. They're cruising on the allure of privacy features but they have a ways to go on other basics.

<comment><USER11> I'm not even sure it's all that great of a trick, considering that no amount of encryption and security on Proton's own servers or in their app can protect the contents of emails that are sent to (edit: or received from) someone who doesn't use Proton.

I am a current customer and think they've got a really well-done service and app, but lately I've been wondering if it's the privacy equivalent of the Maginot Line.

<comment><USER12> Makes me wonder if its possible or reasonable to consider an option with protonmails (and similar) - have a note in the footer of the email - explaining that encrypted is default in their system, but sending to your email provider has it converted to plain text where others can access it.. if you'd like to keep this mail message private click to login to protonReadPortal - where you can read, and if you'd like make a passphrase, to reply and keep messaging on secure servers.. get an optional app for replies to your contacts that have proton accounts.. then tap to checkbox so further emails to you from proton accounts send you a notice to check out the protonReadPortal instead of including the plain text..

I'd want my protonReaderApp to have default shred message after reading.. keep available on proton server for 48 hours after.. one click to save as pdf or zip or other safer password format, or save on protonServer longer.. with easy to change defaults..

would be nice option. I dunno maybe something like this exists?

There are several use cases for this..

a system like this could make for encrypted form storage and messaging with the right API maybe hippa compliant?

I'd expect my lawyers and accountants and such to use something like this.

<comment><USER13> You can already do that with protonmail. There are three buttons available when writing an email, doing exactly that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Article is light on the details, but ProtonMail has published some here: [https://protonmail.com/blog/protoncalendar-security- model/](https://protonmail.com/blog/protoncalendar-security-model/)

> This calendar key will then be symmetrically encrypted (PGP standard) using > a 32-byte passphrase that is randomly generated on your device. Once it is > encrypted, your calendar key will be stored on the ProtonCalendar backend > server.

32-byte passphrase: might be fine, depending on what those bytes are; the interesting question is how much entropy it got generated from.

> Each member of a calendar will have a copy of the same passphrase that is > encrypted and signed using their primary address key. The signature ensures > that no one, not our server or any third-party adversary, changed the > passphrase.

This is where it gets weird. Why do both? The obvious way to encrypt with an ECC key comes with authentication for free. Signing mostly has negative privacy implications. (I think the answer is "we incorrectly decided PGP was a good idea a long time ago and now we are stuck with its problems, which include being wrong about authenticators".)

> The invited member, if they decide to join the calendar, can decrypt the > passphrase using their address key. They can also verify that the signature > on the passphrase belongs to your email address key. This lets the invited > member cryptographically verify that you invited them. To accept the > invitation, ProtonCalendar will then pin the passphrase for the invited > member by replacing your signature with one created using their own email > address key. This signature will later be used by the invited member to > verify the passphrase at each application start.

Again, with designs less than twenty years old you can do that without a signature.

> To accept the invitation, ProtonCalendar will then pin the passphrase for > the invited member by replacing your signature with one created using their > own email address key. This signature will later be used by the invited > member to verify the passphrase at each application start.

 _what_

I'm reviewing the attendee scheme next, but I need more coffee first.

<comment><USER15> What are your thoughts on Protonmail's security in general?

Specifically this part from their whitepaper [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKpHwB- WwAE4YN0?format=png&name=...](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKpHwB- WwAE4YN0?format=png&name=small)

This is a bad idea right? We aren't supposed to decrypt then verify usually, correct? I'm told this is standard for implementations of OpenPGP, but it just seems like a horrible design (of course OpenPGP itself is probably bad).

[https://protonmail.com/docs/business- whitepaper.pdf](https://protonmail.com/docs/business-whitepaper.pdf)

<comment><USER14> I didn't write [https://latacora.micro.blog/2019/07/16/the-pgp- problem.html](https://latacora.micro.blog/2019/07/16/the-pgp-problem.html) (the writing is too good, a giveaway that it's a 'tptacek joint) but I did review it and helped shape its contents and generally subscribe to its message :) In particular you are correct, and specifically GPG's MDC thing is some weird nonsense that does not deserve to be in use in 2019, let alone being in a product that describes itself as having top-notch security.

(Mostly I think I get why Protonmail does what it does, but GPG+email is a losing horse. It also doesn't help that protonmail addresses are a mild predictor for content not worth reading. I haven't quite had Popehat's experience of protonmail being a proxy for overt, virulent white supremacy, but... certainly have seen it be a proxy for poorly informed opinions on security :-))

<comment><USER16> Setting aside the technical issues for a moment, your last point is interesting to me.

One of the things that bugs me about security/privacy discussions is the rampant paranoia and misinformation, and it tends to be the louder voice in the discussions lately. I have to wonder if Protonmail being such a visible figure means that it attracts people who're inclined to fall under the aforementioned.

i.e, the people who use Protonmail for mostly innocuous reasons just don't say anything, so the poorly informed bits float to the top.

It's like apartment ratings, I guess - nobody writes a rating for a good one.

Disclaimer: I interviewed with PM last year and was offered a role, but for various life reasons didn't take it. They're pretty smart people though so I'm inclined to give the team the benefit of the doubt - I don't think any of this influences my comment above, but worth noting.

<comment><USER17> When I decided to ditch google a while back I considered switching to proton mail. Their marketing resonated with what I was looking for. After some thought I realized that email is fairly insecure by design. Even if proton mail fixed all of the security issues associated w/ email it all goes out the door the moment I communicate with a non-proton-mail address. Almost all of my friends and family use gmail, and most of the volume of email I receive comes from businesses. For my usecases, proton mail is basically security theater.

What's worse, proton mail makes many dubious claims. They claim that "All emails are secured automatically with end-to-end encryption." This is clearly false. They state that "ProtonMail's infrastructure resides in Europe's most secure datacenter, underneath 1000 meters of solid rock." Ok, cool, but how does that benefit me? The emails are already end-to-end encrypted (but not really). Am I expecting commandos to raid a datacenter and steal my encrypted emails? They say that "Our story begins where the web was born, at CERN." Again, who cares?

End-to-end encrypted email is not on my list of must-haves (or even on my list of wants). When I need a secure communication channel, I use Signal. Proton mail overstates what they provide, and they spend a lot of effort on frankly useless security measures.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The iCalendar spec[1] already features "encryption by committee" by being thoroughly obfuscated through its innate unreadability and undocumented vendor extensions.

On a more serious note, a sibling comment asked if there's an API. And, really, for an API to work, we'd need to agree on some kind of data structures. Reading that spec, and having mucked with LDAP, IMAP and related specs, it really feels like we're still banging rocks together in how we define the semantics of data exchange.

[1]: [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545)

<comment><USER19> The Fastmail devs have been working on getting JMAP for calendars standardised through the IETF. It's intended as a mature, modern replacement for all the iCal / CalDAV junk. The biggest bottleneck at the moment is getting past the chicken and egg problem - we really need Apple and Google and others to adopt the new protocols for them to start to be useful. JMAP for email is currently struggling against the same adoption issue.

[https://jmap.io/spec-calendars.html](https://jmap.io/spec-calendars.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is a welcome development. ProtonMail has worked well for me. Now if I could only find a way to make a Pixel phone accept that email address instead of one of my several one-off fake name gmail addresses that I use for such things.

<comment><USER21> Don't integrate privacy-focused email service (hushmail/proton etc) into a non-private phone. Access it via the webmail interface.

I've been asked several times to decrypt my phone at international boarders. If you leave things to webmail, unlocking your phone doesn't give them access to your email account, or even tell them where it is. All the TSA/Cops get is my "email@example.com" address that I haven't checked since day one with the phone. My access to my real email is covered by a web browser that doesn't keep records.

<comment><USER22> My ProtonMail installation on Android supports PIN/fingerprint locking

<comment><USER23> They could definitely ask you to unlock it. It's why apps like 1password added a "Travel Mode" [https://blog.1password.com/introducing-travel-mode- protect-y...](https://blog.1password.com/introducing-travel-mode-protect-your- data-when-crossing-borders/)

<comment><USER22> That's pretty cool! Similarly, couldn't you just uninstall the ProtonMail native app when traveling?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I switched to tutanota for the price and features already provided, protonmail is really quite nice though. I'd love to better understand the legal implications of the hosting countries laws better.

<comment><USER25> Same here, using tutanota for the last year. They also offer a calendar, which I haven't tried but assume is encrypted.

<comment><USER26> It says "Free Encrypted Calendar" on their website.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I'm a bit confused it took Protonmail more than a year yo develop ProtonCalendar. Is it really that difficult to develop?

<comment><USER28> Calendars are software so directly related to time, I'm not surprised. There are so many edge cases. Timezones, daylight savings time. The fact that so many regions don't use the same standards. We alter year length with leap years and doing things like adding leap seconds. Time is a nightmare to program around.

<comment><USER29> I somewhat believe our society would be easier if we had a better, simpler standard for time.

<comment><USER30> I've spent much more time than I care to admit researching calendars, the general counting of time from seconds to centuries — actually, ahem, from the Planck time unit to the age of the universe. I find that there would be elegance in having a metric system aligned with "natural" dimensionless units, orders of magnitudes.

Suffice it to say, not only are you 100% right, but there are _many_ easier and better systems we could use; and a software-defined world makes that actually easier than ever to implement in real life.

But people don't like change, and the biggest obstacle historically has been religion — depending which culture/country, pick one or two who oppose any change whatsoever.

Governments just don't see much incentive in doing anything either, because it's a losing proposition — you'd spend a lot of "political capital" and probably earn a lot of resentment in return, except for a few nerds who'd love it.

I've thought long and hard about how to overcome all these historical roadblocks, but I honestly have no idea in this case. Calendars are... loaded topics for way too many people, and useless concerns for most everyone else.

It's like the dozenal society. They're right, about everything, but it just won't happen.

<comment><USER31> I have similar thoughts thinking about currency. It seems incredible to me that we (in the UK) ever managed to pull off decimalization!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Is there an API for this calendar? I looked, but didn't notice anything. That's one of the G features that I like.

</comment><comment><USER33> Did anyone else notice ProtonMail being used in the movie "Knives Out" to send the ransom note? Cracked me up..

<comment><USER34> Not that surprising. It was also shown on mr. robot a few years ago.

<comment><USER35> I would say its more suprising that ProtonMail shows up in a movie like Knives Out (which has no technical content), than it is for it to appear in Mr. Robot (a purposefully technical series, and being underwritten by Michael Bazzel, who is an advocate of ProtonMail).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Duplicate of [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21913989](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21913989) \-- I started reading the actual spec here: [https://protonmail.com/blog/protoncalendar-security- model/](https://protonmail.com/blog/protoncalendar-security-model/)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here is their write up of the security model: [https://protonmail.com/blog/protoncalendar-security- model/](https://protonmail.com/blog/protoncalendar-security-model/)

</comment><comment><USER36> If one doesn't care about web access to their calendar is there any recommended encrypted calendar apps to use on an android device as the default calendar app? Does setting a default calendar app to something other than the calendar on ROM actually prevent calendar data from leaking to third parties?

<comment><USER37> EteSync[1] has been around for a few years now. It's fully open source and offers secure, end-to-end encrypted, and privacy respecting sync for your contacts, calendars and tasks. Sounds like what you're looking for...

[1]: [https://www.etesync.com/](https://www.etesync.com/)

Disclaimer: I created it.

<comment><USER38> it's based on davdroid / davx5 ?

<comment><USER37> Years ago, when it was first created, the code was forked from davdroid, though it diverged quite a bit because the other than the part that interacts with the Android system, they are quite different.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Glad to see any encrypted mail grow their services, this is a bit of a sidebar, but what are some of the updated thoughts about the return of Lavabit and the Dark Mail Alliance group?

</comment><comment><USER40> Still requires google play store to install and google services to run - <USER2> really "polar opposite to google" after all.

</comment><comment><USER38> I'd like to see how this compares to fruux, which hosts a privacy concious calendar for years.

</comment><comment><USER41> I lost a lot of faith in Proton when I learned how much funding they took from the EU. It just runs entirely counter to evidence we've seen of Snowden, 5eyes/14eyes, and other programs that the EU truly wants end to end encrypted comms for people.

Am I wrong to be skeptical?

Edit: oh apparently I'm wrong to even suggest something we have other examples of

<comment><USER42> I disagree with much of your comment:

> I lost a lot of faith in Proton when I learned how much funding they took > from the EU.

Unless the origins of the money are unethical (e.g. blood money), it's not where it comes from that matters, it's what's done with it. I haven't seen any misconduct from ProtonMail and the EU's motivations for giving the money seem to be economic, which makes a lot of sense. They want competitive EU tech companies.

> It just runs entirely counter to evidence we've seen of Snowden, > 5eyes/14eyes, and other programs that the EU truly wants end to end > encrypted comms for people.

The EU is not a member of the 5 eyes nor 14 eyes, some of its member states are. The EU is composed of 28 member states, so not even half are participants in those groups.

Even if the EU were a member of the 5 eyes, the EU is not a monolithic entity. The SIGINT arm of the EU (if such a thing exists) may very well oppose end to end encryption while the economic arm promotes it. The same is true in the US, where the NSA attempts to break encryption while the Department of State funds Tor development.

</comment></comment><comment><USER43> I am satisfied with the Protonmail, easy to use, secure, good.

</comment><comment><USER38> nice, but don't put all your eggs in one basket

</comment><comment><USER44> Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't appear to be CalDAV-compatible. If so, xkcd-927 strikes again :-(

<comment><USER45> If you want to build something which can't be compatible with popular standards, what is the better choice? Build it anyway, or let those standards stop you? It's the same reason I can't read my PGP-encrypted email on my phone.

<comment><USER44> Do what Fastmail did, and work with the community (generally via the IETF) to make your new standard open and compatible:

[https://fastmail.blog/2019/08/16/jmap-new-email-open- standar...](https://fastmail.blog/2019/08/16/jmap-new-email-open-standard/)

<comment><USER45> Good point, perhaps Proton will do so.</comment></comment></comment></comment>