Turning Off GitHub Issues (2016) - <AUTHOR> https://gist.github.com/ryanflorence/8a62abea562ca2896dee <comment><USER2> Issues are important for a large verity of reasons. This just smacks of arrogance and hostility towards other developers you make your work open to.

Yes, you don't have to answer people but when you put code out there for someone to use is it crazy to think people may have a question? That should go in an issue. People can search and find those answers. Telling someone to read the docs or go to StackOverflow, where the creator of the project may not be, is a terrible idea. Questions give a maintainer an idea of what should be focused on while keeping ownership of those questions for triage. Getting lots of people asking the same thing over and over? There's a good chance your design isn't that intuitive for that use case so maybe adjust? Good luck aggregating that information from multiple third party services.

You can even find issues, even MAJOR issues without understanding the code at all. If someone finds a major issue but has no way of knowing how to tackle it now you're going to either miss out on knowing about it or they're going to submit a PR that is a big waste of their time and your time.

This suggestion loses out on data and more direct interaction with users. Seems like a big loss-loss to me.

<comment><USER3> > This just smacks of arrogance and hostility towards other developers you > make your work open to.

You have gotten a sign wrong here in your sensor readings where arrogance and hostility are. Someone gives you a present that comes with a condition. You either take it, or you leave it. But calling the donor "arrogant and hostile" because you don't like a condition just got you uninvited from all future gift exchange parties.

Back then when people still knew what patches were, the whole post of the OP would have been a one liner:

        [x] send patches or stfu

<comment><USER4> > _Back then when people still knew what patches were, the whole post of the > OP would have been a one liner: [x] send patches or stfu_

The person who says that is either an idiot or doesn't care about the product. There's really no third option.

It's fine if you made something once that you no longer care about and want to abandon. Really! I understand that free software isn't free! Someone has to make it, and that takes time and effort and energy, and maybe you don't want to give that anymore! That's OK!

But don't for a second think that it's reasonable to give a song and dance about pretending to still care while demanding pull requests for every bug. Mark the project abandoned, and go do something else without stringing people along. Otherwise you're being a prick to your users for no reason. Non- technical users discover bugs that you didn't catch _all the time_. If the developer/maintainer gives half a shit, they'll listen to those users.

<comment><USER5> I think you're trying to paint this too black and white. It's perfectly reasonable to be interested in supporting only the proactive user base of your project – that way both parties give and gain something.

<comment><USER4> > _It 's perfectly reasonable to be interested in supporting only the > proactive user base_

If you only care about the bugs that someone else fixes for you, then you don't actually care. They do, and you're just pretending. It's perfectly reasonable to stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALALALA" instead of listening to reports about bugs in your product the moment you stop giving a shit about it having bugs. A competent person who actually gives a shit isn't willing to put their head in the sand like that.

<comment><USER6> _> If you only care about the bugs that someone else fixes for you, then you don't actually care. _

You're mischaracterizing the author's post. Notice that the author specifically wrote:

\+ _" Fork the repo, add a failing test."_

\+ "Add an example in the repo that illustrates the bug."

Neither of those requests is "fixing" the bug for the author. Maybe those tasks in your opinion is asking too much of users -- and that's fine to feel that way -- but it's obviously false to say that submitting bug _reproductions_ actually fixes the bug. It certainly doesn't.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm going to quote @BugsJustFindMe in a separate comment, because I think it's a terrific counter-argument to "just open a pull request" as a _universal_ rule:

 _A month ago I encountered a bug in LibreOffice Writer, which I use because it 's really good, where track changes on a docx file wasn't working properly in a particular situation involving the deletion of tracked comments across saves._

 _QUICK! Find the line of code that caused it! Find the mechanism for creating a test case! I 'll wait here._

If the open source project in question is one where users can be reasonably expected to be familiar with your code base, then "propose a fix with a unit test" is fine. But when it's a project whose nature means that users have little to no incentive to look at the code, then the reasonableness of this request decreases with the the size and complexity of the project. And, quoting BugsJustFindMe again:

 _Caring about FOSS doesn 't fix bugs._

I'm a competent developer, but if I ran into a bug in the text-processing utility Pandoc, it's very unlikely I'm going to drop what I'm doing, analyze the source, pinpoint the problem, and submit a PR with a unit test, and oh yes, _learn enough Haskell to do all this,_ and I don't think it would be reasonable to expect me to do so.

<comment><USER8> It's funny because i actually did exactly what you're talking about once when I ran into a bug in the parsing logic of wikitext tables in pandoc. I read the (extremely well organized) source, having never ever done any haskell before. The fix ended up being a 2 character change, it took me an hour to do, and I didn't really have to learn haskell to do it.

Point being, if you find a bug in a software, as a fellow developer, I think it's reasonable for the maintainer to expect you to at least take a quick look around. Regardless of prior knowledge. You get to learn stuff, and the project maintainers have their load lighten up.

<comment><USER9> What about if they _did_ take a quick look around, and determined that trying to fix it themselves or even find the guilty line would take too long? If I spend hours, days, or even weeks like that every time I found a bug in someone else's code, I'd be doing _my own_ users a severe disservice. I owe it to them to spend my time more productively than that. So if the author's answer is "patch or GTFO" then I've found someone I'd never hire and probably wouldn't even want to interact with.

Real open source is about the community as much as the code. It's not about authors and users each trying to set themselves above the other. True collaboration involves mapping tasks to expertise in the way that results in the greatest overall good. If an expert in an area unilaterally shuts off that conversation, then they're not really helping open source. They're just throwing stuff over the wall and pretending it's open.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is from a year ago.

As someone who wants to contribute to a project for the first time, there would be nothing more frustrating than spending time creating what I think is a good pull request, only to have it be turned down (which it will be).

Issues help new contributors and repo veterans determine whether it's worth the extra effort to create a pull request. The problem with low-quality issues needs to be addressed by automation and filters, which GitHub hasn't done yet.

<comment><USER11> Fork it, fix it. Pull in upstream changes until the maintainer fixes it. I suppose file a ticket with a snippet of what I did to fix it so a regular contributor can create a request faster.

If this is a random one-off drive by bug, then why go through the hassle of figuring out what particular standards any individual maintainer wants to follow just to have it turned down, or discover that some regular contributor already patched it while I reading the documentation.

(I mean, I'd love to contribute, but the few times that I've stumbled upon a bug, fixed it, figured everything the maintainer wanted in a pull request... it was aleady fixed by the maintainer and I'd just wasted a lot of time)

<comment><USER12> > Pull in upstream changes until the maintainer fixes it

that's not a very scalable thing to do, as it involves unbounded amount of work. what if the maintainer never pull in your fix?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> > Think you found a bug? Fork the repo, add a failing test

Ugh. No. 999 times out of 1000, the person maintaining the code actually knows what it does and how it works. And if I'm not that person, I don't. I found a problem. The problem affects me. It also probably affects other people.

I'm an intelligent, capable, curious, knowledgeable, and caring professional software developer. I write code for fun, but I write _my_ code for fun. And after that I don't have the energy or the inclination to learn how your shit works deep down where it matters. Because what will take you a minute, will take me a month unless I stop going to work every day.

I will do my best to describe what I was doing when the problem occurred, what I expected to happen, and what happened instead, but screw you if you think I need to understand your codebase or your testing infrastructure in order to report a problem.

<comment><USER13> Do whatever you want.

But if the developer who gave you the fruits of their labour for free proposes a way to report bugs that works best for them, take it or leave it, or recommend a different approach in a civil tone if you must. But 'screw you'? Not classy.

Also, many Github-hosted projects are critical infrastructure for some people. They will make it as easy as possible for the developer to fix their bugs, if they are rational.

<comment><USER4> > _' screw you'? Not classy._

Then, fine, tone police, I'm not classy.

I am, however, a FOSS developer who understands the value of non-technical contributions to a project.

Know which kinds of bugs don't get fixed? The ones your users never tell you about because you decided to make it hard to report them.

<comment><USER13> I agree with your argument completely.

Just be nice, and your accurate advice is more likely to be useful. That's all.

<comment><USER4> > _Just be nice, and your accurate advice is more likely to be useful. That 's > all. _

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing)

My advice is already useful. If someone chooses not to take it because they'd rather tell non-technical users to pound sand, then I hope their project suffers for it.

<comment><USER13> There is an obvious meta comment to make here that I leave as an exercise for the reader.

<comment><USER4> Nah, you're probably mistaken.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> I really like Issues as a sanity check: if I'm getting an error or something isn't working, it's nice to know if it's a known issue (or an issue with a workaround). Even if there's no official fix.

If you see Issues as a place where anyone can demand new features or bug fixes for free, then I can see it being overwhelming. But I think most people see it as a community-based repository for thoughts, bugs and ideas.

<comment><USER15> Totally agree. First thing I do when encountering an issue with a repo is check the Issues and see if anyone else is experiencing it as well. Many times the there is already an active discussion going on, and the thread can contain workarounds or an ETA for the fix.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> A benefit of Github Issues is that users can also help each other.

For example, this happened recently:

User 1 kept having an issue, but no idea how to get debug infos.

User 2 had the issue once too and knows how to get debug infos, but can't reproduce the error.

By having both post in the same issue, the root cause and a matching solution were found before the maintainer even saw the issue :)

<comment><USER17> There are a few repositories where I know that I am one of the users with the most experience, so I watch them and as soon as issues arise I'll try to help debug and pinpoint the issue or even solve it.

Since the Issue-tracker is public, we can have those benefits where we can take weight of the maintainer's shoulder.

In another repo I just do releases to a specific distribution platform and my users basically do all the work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> The author definitely seems to be assuming that every project fits a single profile - small enough to have only a single maintainer, simple enough that a non-specialized programmer can navigate it or create a patch easily, etc. If turning off issues works for people like that, good for them. But this kind of thing really grates.

"If we want to include more people in open source, I can't think of a better way than getting open source code on their machines and into their editors."

Wrong pronoun. The author presumes to speak for "us" in open source, but doesn't really represent anyone but himself. For most of "us" getting more people involved requires quite a bit of work explaining how the code works, how the tests work, and so on. Anybody who's not putting in that kind of effort, even if it's because they don't need to on their personal hobby project, should STFU about what "we" can or should do to get more people involved in open source. Try working on a big, complex, multi-person project in a less-obvious specialty, and see if "just load this up in your editor and get back to me when you have a patch" will work.

</comment><comment><USER18> This is arrogant and misguided.

There are a minority of very capable people whom need to be able to report security issues and want to contribute valuable additions easily.

I for one just found a CVE-worthy DoS in a popular YAML library, and an working to resolve it and improve testing.

Shutting off the phone and answering machine because of telemarketers isn't "the" solution, because then no one can get ahold of you.

Instead, deal with the shit to get the sugar too. Otherwise, why use GitHub or why have a phone?

<comment> yjftsjthsd-h Because I want to call my daughter once a week, and publish a Python module that someone else might find useful (which does not mean I want to support them).

<comment><USER19> Then put that you don't want to support this in the README and allow others to support themselves if they wish via issues.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This would stop a lot of important communications. Sure some repo's would benefit but others would merely wither and die. Not everyone that uses open source is a programmer or technically apt enough to put code into and editor and submit a pull request.

<comment><USER21> Even as a developer, an issue from anyone (even non-technical people) helps people find out quickly if someone else is having the same issue you are with something, even if it's not fixed.

<comment><USER18> Yes. As a maintainer whom actually cares about feedback and usability, I care that features developed apply to the real world and aren't imagined in an utopian vacuum by own possibly insane biases. Social democracy, not authoritarianism. If code isn't usable by other people in the real world, it's just graffiti while waiting for Godot.

<comment><USER22> As a maintainer who also cares about feedback and usability, but who doesn't maintain any high-traffic projects, I can just about imagine how frustrating and destructive of motivation it gets to see the same no-thought issues raised over and over and over.

But if you close them NOTABUG or WONTFIX, you get a reputation as that guy who just doesn't want to hear about it, what a bastard.

I think there must be a middle way somewhere, for those projects which attract a lot of interest but few or no co-maintainers. But I'm glad I'm not on the hook for finding that middle way, too.

<comment><USER23> Oops, hit logout on that throwaway account. Bye-bye, religious flame wars. ;)

Support is what it is, and it's a two-way street.

Most engineers usually don't have customer support or sales experience, and so don't have the experience to triage and communicate pro-socially. (I sold software as a high-school job and also had my own consultancy at 17.) It's important to push outside one's comfort-zone when young (or old) to acquire skills that will be vital later on.

Post the policies, requirments and desires in contributing.md promenently. (I think a CoC is redundant and tyrannical SJWing.) Setting expectations and not making promises is important.

Finally, there is a cost to FOSS on both supply and demand sides. I just had some company fork the repo of a project I fixed, make a pointless PR and then offer no contributions in a grsec-theft-style way.

PS: Subversion has a great talk about defending the community.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'd almost want to do the opposite and disable PRs, at least until discussion has been had. I'll take discussion before code much more than code before discussion. Heck, I'll oftentimes take pure discussion without any code added over code before discussion.

English is easier than code; don't be the person that puts up barriers.

<comment><USER25> Ah I think that highly depends on the situation. In some instances a code example makes up for a thousand words, in some examples quite the opposite. The problem is that random PR are often hundreds of lines changed instead of a stub to start a conversation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I predict that this will result in smart-ass pull requests that just take the text that would have gone in an issue and puts it in a comment to the main code file of the project.

</comment><comment><USER27> If you don't want to deal with feedback on your open source project, fine, just state it in the README "We don't care about your issues unless you are a developer who can contribute.", but don't try to veil this indifference with some ill thought out excuses for why it is a best-practice to do so.

</comment><comment><USER28> I agree that "Pull Requests for Everything" is actually a good idea to encourage programmers to be practical and provide value (I have a pretty strong opinion here... fork, work, pull is always better than passively entering in an issue).

However, this approach is not good for non-technical end users. Remember that there is a lot of end-user facing open source out there and those folks aren't programmers!

<comment><USER29> It's also not good for technical people with limited time.

I get that help vampires are a thing, but so are prickly developers. As a developer it's your prerogative to be an asshole, but consider the effect on your reputation.

<comment><USER28> EDIT: I re-read your post a few times and understand what you mean (originally thought you were directing name calling to _me_). Yes, it is important to be flexible with these things and not operate in absolutes. It is very important to be kind and human to others in open source.

Also, I learned what "help vampires" are. Neat.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> The problem - and I use the word "problem" here _very_ loosely - is the ease of access that GitHub provides. Even back in the heyday of mailing lists there was noise to deal with, but nowhere near the amount maintainers on GitHub can find themselves dealing with these days.

Formal bug reports are certainly important, however as the author points out the Issues feature in GitHub too often gets used for simple questions that could have been answered reading the docs, searching past issues, or just googling it.

The templates GitHub added last year have been a godsend in terms of improving things but I'd like to see an option to make filling out the template mandatory.

</comment><comment><USER31> This is a very emotionally charged and drastic approach to open source. I am not seeing the benefits of doing this, I can only see downsides:

      - Users who are loyal who cannot code are discouraged from voicing issue or asking for help
      - Users who can code are dejected because that is the only way they bring up an issue first without coding.
          Sometimes the creator is best suited to give advice or to simply do the thing at initial report or query.
      - Makes the project look closed off.
      - Lack of community and vibrancy, there are no issues, is it finished -- encounter issue -- bad software.
      - Why are there no issues, is this developer giving up?

</comment><comment><USER32> As always, the best solution is probably in-between the two extremes, i.e. keep issues open because they are useful for discussions and non-technical people bug reports, but don't be afraid to close PR and issues [1] to avoid the problems like burnout.

[1] [https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2016/why-i-close-prs- oss-p...](https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2016/why-i-close-prs-oss-project- maintainer-notes)

(edit: I know the link talks about PR, but for me it applies to issues asking for features or weird bugs as well)

</comment><comment><USER33> It's hard to read the title here (or even the content) and not take it as a categorical statement, but I think this is aimed at a very particular subset of all open source: projects that have one or few maintainers, with relatively little time to devote to maintenance, and that are primarily developer-facing libraries.

For example, saying that you shouldn't allow a user to report an issue without an associated test for a project that is a UI tool isn't feasible, because there's no guarantee that the user is going to know how to write a test. The same goes of a developer-oriented tool that isn't strictly a code library.

The reason a library or framework is a bit different is because these generally fit in the culture of a particular language. That means questions like where a test goes, what the directory structure is, etc, _should_ be relatively understood by a contributor. If the contributor is too new to understand them, this does leave them out in the cold, in a sense---but it's also important not to ignore the value of the developer's time.

Some may say, hey, you don't _have_ to address all issues. And in a basic sense this is true. I have no obligation to respond to issues in my repo. But I'm a human being who likes to follow the golden rule. I want to interact with others if they are willing to engage me, but I also need to keep in mind that I have, say, 5 hours a week to devote to this project. Saying "bring some of your time and I will give you some of mine" doesn't seem rude in this context. Indeed, it seems natural.

If you're just doing a side project and you don't have the time to invest, that's fine. Go use another library, and be well. No hard feelings. If you're using this professionally, you're using my code to save you time, which is to say money in this case. I have zero qualms about asking you to invest a modicum of that time to reduce the few cycles I have that must be devoted to reproducing your issue.

Audience matters. And one must remember that choices like this shape the audience of one's project. If I decide to turn off GH issues and only accept pull requests, that means I've probably reduced my audience. But it also means I've set a tone for that audience. If that's the choice someone wants to make, I think they should be encouraged. After all, the more quality code that is out there to see and learn from, the more we all benefit---even if we don't use a given library directly because its interaction style isn't our own.

</comment><comment><USER34> My preferred compromise would be if GitHub started sorting issues by "number of upvotes" by default. (Upvotes aren't entirely a thing on GitHub issues, but you can add a thumbs-up emoji which is pretty similar.) For some projects, there is just far more desire for free help than there are people available to help for free. In these cases it is still useful to discover issues that enormous numbers of people have, even if you won't have the bandwidth to deal with a large fraction of them.

</comment><comment><USER25> This seems to be solving a problem that most of us would like to have, so it indeed comes out as arrogant. However look at it from another point of view. Imagine you are working on your job and a manager comes every 30-60 min to your desk to ask you a question about your project, often silly and already answered, breaking all your workflow (guesstimate about the email frequency for popular projects).

Wouldn't you basically device some way to avoid this as much as possible? This seems to be a similar case to popular, single-maintainer OSS. The largest open issues I've had I think was under 10 in 1 day after launching a mid-popular project of mine and luckily it was _after_ launching (so no middle-of- workflow). I cannot even start to imagine the load for a popular dev, and this indeed seems like a good way for a saturated person to offload some of the work to contributors while raising up the entry bar. Cmon, this is even a basic economy rule: supply and demand.

An alternative I've thought is, for purely one-on-one support that only benefits OP, redirect them to some support platform where it can be handled as the developer prefers. In that way it makes it even more viable for the developer to keep working on the project. I just don't love the perverse incentives it generates, but seems better than other alternatives.

</comment><comment><USER35> I'm not a programmer, and when I tried to learn it I understood the concept but actually programming something is difficult for me. No idea why this is.

But I can describe an issue, I'm trying to find out how to reproduce an issue. I try to write issue reports which could help a developer what I want or what I think is not working correctly.

It is not perfect, sometimes it is a wrong setting or something else which breaks. But I doubt it is 99% on GitHub.

</comment><comment><USER36> Issues are very important, how you handle them is more important and that includes acknowledging the difference between discussion / decision making and bug or feature implementation.

People don't get burnt out from people discussing / proposing fixes or improvements, they get burnt out from not having the time or support to fix / implement them or from to much concurrent work and context switching.

</comment><comment><USER37> We track issues by monitoring log files so we can quickly get to the root of the problem. Do you want your developers spending time writing issues on github/trello/etc. or actually coding? You should let the DevOps help the developers do what they are best at.

You get what you pay for when you use open source. You are either paying for it in time and or cash.

</comment><comment><USER38> For most projects, this is nothing more than an even higher barrier for users.

As a developer I would LOVE to have everyone submit a failing test or a PR rather than reporting issues but that's just not feasible. Most never will, because there's a learning curve they don't have time for - the language, the tooling, the product itself, Git/github/PRs, etc.

As the project maintainer, that's what I signed up for. It really sucks sometimes, but I'd rather sort through the junk and personally fix the issues people report than funnel everyone through hoops they likely won't spend time on and lose that valuable feedback entirely.

</comment><comment><USER39> The problem with this is that it forces anyone who finds an issue into investing the time to understand the code-base. I'm assuming this developer uses other OSS libraries and I wonder how many of these projects he contributes PRs to if he finds an issue. If you're going to play this way you need to make sure you're not a hypocrite about it (I would have looked but the author didn't actually link to Michael Jackson's project).

It's obviously much more efficient for a few experts to understand each OSS library.

</comment><comment><USER40> I think it's kind of ironic that the author focuses on pull requests. I say this because me and 2 other people created pull requests for a repository fairly widely used, one created by the author. The pull requests were opened in early April and haven't been acknowledged or responded to.

I understand open source maintainers get burnt out. I don't think he should focus on a solution that doesn't even seem to be working for him.

</comment><comment><USER41> Many open source libraries that I end up using have terrible documentation, and borderline meaningless commit messages. Issues are one of the only places I can go to find any sort of useful explanation or backstory on how a particular part of a library should work.

I'd love it if I didn't have to use GitHub Issues as an ad hoc FAQ document, but it's better than nothing.

</comment><comment><USER42> I don't buy it. Issues are great for users and mantainers in many manyways. I agree that it may be frustrating when you don't want to be a support center for users, but then you should just ignore those.

My favourite approach is to make all issues LABELED, then you can easily focus on those which you need, and let other issues for people who have time to read and help them.

In fact, github issues are indeed for asking for help: "Issues are used to track todos, bugs, feature requests, and more. As issues are created, they'll appear here in a searchable and filterable list. To get started, you should create an issue." you can also read here some interesting facts [https://guides.github.com/features/issues/](https://guides.github.com/features/issues/)

</comment><comment><USER43> I think the problem is that most people (both users and developers) mistake an issue tracker for a world-writable TODO list. If something goes wrong, it imposes an obligation that someone fix it.

Instead I'm in favor of the fire-and-forget feedback form. This makes it clear that feedback is a pure gift with no obligations on either side. Users: you don't need to look for duplicates or come up with a way to reproduce it. Just talk about what happened to you. Developers: it's just data, do with it what you like. Go wild, run machine learning on it.

Okay, sure, add optional contact info, so the developers can ask for a repro case if they think it's particularly interesting.

(There was a great Paul Ford article about Internet feedback but my searches aren't finding it.)

</comment><comment><USER44> Please add a [2016] tag. I think issue templates solved a lot of frustration with github issues

<comment><USER45> Added.

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> What a weird opening sentence. Unless he was planning on making a Michael Jackson joke (quick skim ~ none?) or just wanted to call attention to the "fun" point that he has a friend named Michael Jackson, I don't see why it wouldn't be more prudent to just open with "My friend Michael..." rather than appearing to set up a Checkov's gun with no payoff (even if just a quick "(heh)" after the name).

(I'm aware the gh issues discussion is the more valuable one to most, but as I don't worry about gh much I doubt my thoughts on it haven't already been covered by comments here and before)

</comment><comment><USER47> This article is from the perspective of the maintainer, but what about the potential contributor?

I've gone down the path described above and I've been equally burned by maintainers who are not interested in the feature, not interested in the bug fix, or in general are inactive.

I want to contribute to projects instead of simply forking and doing my own thing, but before touching the codebase I want to poke the maintainers to see if the feature, bug, etc. is worth the effort.

I'm going to submit an issue before I write a single commit. It's not worth my time understanding a codebase, debugging, submitting a PR just to have it rejected or fade away into the abyss.

<comment><USER5> If it isn't worth your time to look at the codebase before doing something, why should it be worth the maintainer's time to look at your issue?

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> I can see this working if your project's target audience is developers. But for most projects where the target audience is just regular users, most vastly prefer a simple CRUD form to create an issue.

Checkout some of the issue I have in my repo: [https://github.com/sergiotapia/magnetissimo](https://github.com/sergiotapia/magnetissimo)

They are valuable insight into the problems people have, and if I asked them to open a PR for every problem I would most likely have 1 or 2 at most issues open. Everybody loses.

</comment><comment><USER49> As someone who ends up using other people's code more than fixing other people's code, I try to be sensitive to the issue.

For example, I recently started using someone else's code for a project, largely unchanged. However, I have run into issues. I normally just file these issues under my own github fork, rather than the upstream. If I really can't figure something out, I may choose to file an issue with the upstream, but otherwise I'm trying to only send pull requests instead.

</comment><comment><USER50> > Think you found a bug? Fork the repo, add a failing test

It seems like this would also really help with duplicated error reports which can be burdensome to sift through, and hey if someone else comes along and has the time to fix the bug in question they now have a great means to validate their fix by.

</comment><comment><USER51> It's better to simply leave issues enabled, but put in place rules for what constitutes a valid issue, noting that other issues will be closed without further consideration. Well-reported issues are gold, and the others are easy to ignore.

</comment><comment><USER52> His problem can easily be fixed by adding a FAQ and Guide to Contributing and Opening Issues doc.

Then tell users to read both before opening an issue. Set some rules on how you want the issues written, tone of voice, etc.

A project without issue is a project nobody is using.

</comment><comment><USER53> Perhaps make it easier to attach a failing test, running through the CI process and reporting the result inline? And perhaps allow to vote an issue quality, i.e. demote badly written ones?

</comment><comment><USER54> I get the sentiment, but bug reports are distinct from test cases. Better to track the bugs inside the repo, e.g. using something like bugseverywhere or artemis.

</comment><comment><USER55> So the only people able to report bugs should be contributors? Do whatever you want, I guess, but this sounds like a good way to have a very buggy project.

</comment><comment><USER56> For some projects, this makes some sense. For many, it does not.

Issues aren't just off powerless users, their for users who are focussed on the downstream, not your codebase.

Yes, open source means of they want to get into your codebase, they can. It doesn't mean that it should be a prerequisite. Certainly, you'll get less distraction from people opening issues (invalid or otherwise) if you do this, but it's a particularly user-hostile move unless your target user audience has very similar skills to the projects core devs.

</comment><comment><USER57> Making code public does not imply support. Of any kind. Those are very, very different things.</comment>


Argentina bans dollar purchases for savings - <AUTHOR> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-05/argentina-bans-dollar-purchases-for-savings-infobae-says.html

<comment><USER2> As I live here and have a consulting company here, I'm familiar with the complexities of dealing with dollars. I'm a hacker by nature and spend a lot of time now trying to 'hack' the financial world of the Argentine peso. In that sense I think the article is worth posting.

Incidentally, Argentina _must_ do this because they have no access to foreign capital markets due to things like seizure of YPF, devaluation of the peso in 2001, and failure to pay back the lenders they still owe, etc. Foreign currency reserves just keep dwindling. As China slows down and demand for soybeans drops, Argentina is really, really going to have a hard time. So though it seems crazy there is some "reason" for it (I'm not trying to make a political comment, I personally think it's crazy and they should radically open the market, but my point is that it's not _exclusively_ xenophobia that is driving this policy).

Unfortunately the policy just pushes the trade to the black market. One of the interesting things here is that if you need pesos, and you have some access to USD, you make an instant 20-25% on your money. The "black market" (they call it "blue" here because it seems nicer) continues to diverge. If you're a hobbyist economist like myself, it's really fascinating to watch market risk priced into a currency in realtime as seen by the "blue"-vs-official rate spread.

<comment><USER3> Having to fake an exchange rate sounds like the economic conditions in badly run countries like Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Russia, etc.

What I am wondering is, with a depressed economy like that in Argentina, what is crime and personal safety like? I am particularly wondering about violent crimes for money, because how people react to a bad economy is determined quite strongly by culture and not just the economic situation alone.

<comment><USER4> > _Having to fake an exchange rate sounds like the economic conditions in > badly run countries like Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Russia, etc._

"Badly run countries"? Zimbabwe maybe, but for Venezuela and Russia, I beg to differ. They are doing things THEIR way, not the US/neo-liberals way that would like a better slice of the pie, but Venezuela is much better off than all the dictatorships and banana republics in the region, and Russia is way better than when Yeltsin did things that benefited certain foreign interests...

<comment><USER5> The Venezuelan way is faking the value of the Bolivar and pushing everyone to the black market to buy dollars.The official rate is Bs.4.30 per dollar. The black market rate is almost Bs.10 per dollar.

Are you aware that most of the products we consume here are imported? Venezuela almost does not produce anything other than oil.

So , the clothes you buy, the medicines,food,etc,etc, everything has to be imported. Not everyone gets access to dollars from the government , so you have to buy dollars in the black market to import products. This causes the 25-28% yearly inflation rate we have. In the end, the people pay the price.

The solution from the government against the black market rate : make it illegal to even talk about the black market rate. Basically,censor it.

I hardly think that is the proper way to run an economy.

<comment> excuse-me I think the Saudis might disagree !

<comment><USER5> Did you read my entire comment? Do the saudis have a fake controlled economy?

<comment> excuse-me I'm not sure they actually have an economy. Those in charge sell oil and buy toys for themselves - the rest get very poor.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is a pretty standard example of capital controls being implemented in non-free countries by the bureaucratic elite in order to impose hidden costs on their people and to prevent the people from responding rationally to terrible economic policy.

The reasons are easy to understand. People are willing to take on the risk of owning hard currency (gold, dollars, euros) if they believe that their nominal currency has greater risk. For example, if a government is spending recklessly, there is serious risk of inflation. Or, if the government has forced interest rates to be too low (well below inflation), then people want to hedge against that too.

By forbidding the ownership of hard currency, the government forces individuals to use the local currency. They must save in this currency, which drives down interest rates and provides cheap capital to their government. And it prevents (for a short time) exchange rates from significantly changing, because it effectively limits the supply of the local currency and reduces demand for hard currency.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the other reason governments do this - it's a great way to force the people to bear the burden of paying down national debt. If the country has significant debt, then the bureaucratic elite have a huge incentive to pursue a policy of inflation, so that the debt becomes less burdensome over time. This well written article from The Economist explains how the west used this technique in the post-ww2 era: <http://www.economist.com/node/18834259?story_id=18834259>

<comment><USER7> Argentina has direct elections of the president, multiple political parties, and mandatory voting. How does that make them a "non-free country"? If anything that makes Argentines more free than citizen of the United States.

Also what is your criteria for a hard currency vs a soft currency? It seems weird to group the US Dollar and Euro with gold and put the Argentine Peso in a separate group.

<comment><USER8> A hard currency is a globally traded currency expected to serve as a reliable store of value. The Argentine peso isn't widely enough traded, not to mention subject to devaluation, to even remotely qualify as a hard currency.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> All the economic talk these days is about Greece and Spain, but Argentina seems to be on its knees economically based on the kind of measures they've pursued as of late.

A few months ago, they deployed cash-sniffing dogs in airports to prevent people from bringing large amounts of money out of the country. Yes, cash- sniffing dogs. They have a tax evasion rate of around 40%, and they routinely lie about economic statistics and go after watchdog groups that try to publish the real numbers.

I'm not sure how long that can last as a national economic policy.

Sources: [http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/que- pa...](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/que- pasa/argentina-deploys-dogs-sniff-out-cash) <http://www.economist.com/node/21548242>

<comment><USER10> Meanwhile, the president says "we're resisting while the world collapses on top of us", so many lies.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> This is not new, it's been almost impossible to buy dollars since last november, but it has been made official just recently.

The problem with this ban is that there are really no ways to save money here, unless you have a significant amount of capital to buy a house or apartment. What are we salaried workers supposed to do with the percentage of our monthly income that we can save? The only alternative seems the black market, or spending everything in things you might need in the next few months but with no real resale value.

With a 25% inflation rate, saving in pesos equals losing money. What can we do?

</comment><comment><USER11> Prohibited from saving in dollars through official channels, Argentines will turn to whatever other choices they have: black-market dollars, precious metals like gold, and (I would expect) even alternative currencies like Bitcoin.[1]

[1] [http://cs702.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/on-the-potential- adopt...](http://cs702.wordpress.com/2011/05/29/on-the-potential-adoption-and- price-appreciation-of-bitcoin-in-the-long-run/)

</comment><comment><USER12> This strategy has been tried way too many times before. It never worked and you can tell it is the beginning of a new debacle.

Stuff like this makes me glad that I left the country.

</comment><comment><USER13> Is this stuff still going on in the world? I thought that such rules died with the fall of east European regimes around 1990. Well, I'm glad I can open a savings account in all major world currencies (at the moment, following currencies are possible at my bank: CHF, GBP, USD, AUD, CAD, DKK, NOK, SEK, JPY and of course EUR, which is official currency). More, it's possible to mix different currencies in one account.

<comment><USER14> Correct, and all those currencies float. Guess in what direction? Down. Have a look at 'Currency Wars' and see how all country's drive down the value of their currency in order to export more easily. As they do, paying off debt becomes easier. However, for people that actually save money (or who are on fixed income like pensioners) it means their purchasing power becomes much smaller. Link to Currency Wars: [http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Wars-Making- Global-Portfolio/...](http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Wars-Making-Global- Portfolio/dp/1591844495)

<comment><USER13> The problem is always this: what can I buy with the money I have? If all major currencies (including home currency) float down, then I don't lose very much. However, if my home currency loses 10% or more per month relative to other currencies, then I would very much like to have access to foreign currency. This was true 30 years ago in my country and this is probably true in Argentina today.

<comment><USER15> "If all major currencies (including home currency) float down, then I don't lose very much."

That's not true -- they're all floating down relative to actual goods and services.

Coordinated devaluation prevents massive capital flight from country to country, but only by making things suck equally everywhere.

<comment><USER13> Yes, I understand that. But the process is slow. Hyperinflation in some countries was/is much, much worse than regular inflation in developed countries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> This happens in Venezuela since 10 years ago and it has been proved to be a very bad idea.

However, this is _should_ not be in HN. This kind of politics articles just brings undesired controversy.

<comment><USER17> I disagree. I wandered into the comments just to find out what would happen, or what this means to, the market and Argentinians in general.

<comment><USER18> The results and comments are entirely predictable. It's not good news for your average person in Argentina.

Isn't it obvious?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> The US banned using foreign coins in the mid 19th century as a misguided attempt to bolster patriotism. Americans routinely used Spanish coins in private transactions up until this point. I think (don't entirely remember if) part of the reason was to encourage the use of US silver coins which had been driven out of circulation due to the US government overvaluing gold relative to silver. The basic problem was that by having the US dollar fixed to two exchange rates that one was always being driven out of circulation as the exchange rate changed. This lead to the free silver movement and the Populists getting excited about seeing only silver used to back dollars.

This is a misguided attempt to trap people into their own crappy currency. The US currency isn't any better fundamentally but as of now we don't force citizens to hold dollars for savings.

</comment><comment><USER20> This is one of a couple moves by the Argentinian government that slows down tech innovation and development.

You neither can import any electronics (or anything at all, except you also export for an equivalent amount). So you're stuck with what the government held companies provide.

<comment><USER21> Sadly, yep... that's true. I recently moved back to Argentina from Spain, and for example they just released the Samsung Galaxy S II, and it's really expensive.

Don't even think of buying a Tablet, Phone or whatever, you just can't.

Plus, they want us to buy the shitty laptops/netbooks that are manufactured here in Argentina, like Bangho for example, I think we also produce Lenovo, but I like them.

Not to mention we also have restrictions importing books... yes, books!

<comment><USER14> I'm very curious why you would want to move to Argentina. I've just read a blog from a guy (Ferfal) about moving out of Argentina because of all the violence, repression and hardship. 'Surviving Argentina' He predicted this news as well. <http://ferfal.blogspot.nl/search/label/Argentine%20Collapse>

"They investigated your finances if you bought a big screen TV for the world cup or send your kids to a private school. In a way they "nationalized" and ruined private health care by including every crappy social medical plan into private health care services that used to be of acceptable quality. They banned the purchase of foreign currency, pretty much froze importations even taking a Fahrenheit 451 twist when they banned the importation of books, like a poor taste Bradburian joke.

No one saw this coming? Really? Hey, those guys that said Argentina was great for expats and that expropriation wasn't a risk, I suppose they crawled back under a rock in Salta or somewhere."

Is Spain in such a terrible state that Argentina looks better? Any thoughts?

<comment><USER22> A friend of mine recently moved from California to Argentins to be with a guy (sigh). It is even worse because she is ethnically Chinese, so people see her on the street and assume she works in a laundry, when in fact she is a PhD holding research scientist and manager at a Fortune 50.

Unless you have weird ties to Argentina like this, it seems irrational to move there.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> This has always been the rule in Brazil. In Uruguay you can open an account in pesos, dollars, or euros (but it is a very small country that depends on banking, like the swiss). Are there other countries where you can open an account with a foreign currency?

<comment><USER24> I believe it's the rule in the U.S. as well; deposit accounts must be in dollars. Several American banks offer business accounts that let you maintain multiple currencies, but they do so by storing (on paper) the other currencies in the care of a foreign branch (see the asterisk note at the bottom of Wells Fargo's info: [https://www.wellsfargo.com/com/international/businesses/acco...](https://www.wellsfargo.com/com/international/businesses/accounts/multi- currency)).

<comment><USER25> It's not the rule in the U.S. that deposits must be in dollars. (Most banks will let you open up foreign-currency accounts...they just charge more. A lot more.)

However, foreign currency-denominated accounts are subject to yearly gain/loss recognition as the value of the foreign currency changes compared to the dollar. This could potentially trigger income taxes on the unrealized gain, effectively (and usually) reducing or eliminating any interest earned. It's also a PITA for banks to deal with the compliance paperwork.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Seems like Cristina wants to follow the venezuelan model. At least they have some real internal production, not like Venezuela where the only thing we produce is oil and everything has to be imported at black market dollar rates.

Ultra high inflation, here we go!

</comment><comment><USER7> I'm not always in favor of what Christina does, but it is generally good to have a diversity of economic models active in the world, for the same reason biodiversity is important.

While most of the world struggled with the 2008 economic crisis - and Europe still struggles with it - Argentina shrugged it off.

Imagine if another longer lasting crisis occurs within the US hegemonic sphere. Countries like Argentina, which have one foot outside that sphere, will be able to survive and perhaps even lead growth elsewhere.

Life times of economic crises in Argentina have taught Argentines to depend on no one but themselves, which means protectionism sometimes.

<comment><USER26> We shrugged it off because soy prices are at a record high and the state gets huge amounts of cash from those exports. Living and dying by the sword of commodities prices is _not_ progress.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Funny how nevertheless many people promote Argentina as a model for Greece.

<comment><USER28> A great model of what would happen if they go with the seemingly easy way out.

[http://www.cavallo.com.ar/wp- content/uploads/2011/10/Greece-...](http://www.cavallo.com.ar/wp- content/uploads/2011/10/Greece-should-restructure.-revised.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> This is one reason why Bitcoin can be useful. Maybe this will lead to additional Bitcoin adoption in Argentina.

</comment><comment><USER30> And why is this on HN ?

<comment><USER31> HN isn't only for tech articles. It's for articles that may interest the tech community. You'll often find posts on politics, finance, and other obscure topics as well.

<comment><USER18> The guidelines indicate that most political articles are off topic:

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're > evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. it's probably off-topic.

Political articles really should not be here: it's a poisonous topic that, on a site like this, usually just rehashes the same old things, which makes them not particularly 'gratifying of one's intellectual curiosity'.

This article isn't really obscure, it appeared on Bloomberg.com, and the Argentinean government fooling around with foreign exchange, banks, and statistics is not really news either.

An example of an article that I think would be more in the spirit of hacker news might be something about options trading evolving between medieval Florence and Flanders, or something like that...

<comment><USER32> I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but in my view, the article isn't just 'political'. With currency and money involved, there is an 'economic' angle that I, personally, want to learn about. And with a government being involved, there are moral/philosophical issues that I, personally, want to learn about. So for me, this article gratifies my intellectual curiosity.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the link may seem off-topic to you, but it's highly relevant to me. And there's nothing wrong with any of that. And of course, just because an article shows up here doesn't mean you have to read it :)

<comment><USER33> The front page is a zero-sum game. Every article that appears does so at the expense of another article. The articles that appear on the front page get the most comments, which drive the community.

I'm not arguing against this article, nor am I arguing that _all_ articles on the front page should appeal to me. However, I am arguing that your final line of reasoning does not hold in general.

<comment><USER34> I disagree that the front page is a zero-sum game. A front page filled with good variety has more value than a front page filled with repetitive articles on the same basic subjects. Whether this particular article is good variety or not is beyond what I'm willing to address, but I don't think it's correct to describe the front page as a zero-sum game, and too much conformity can be harmful.

<comment><USER33> I think you're correct that I misused "zero-sum," since the utility of the front page is not always the same; it can increase or decrease based on the quality of the articles. I incorrectly used it to describe a situation where the gain for one is the loss of another, which is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a zero-sum game.

Regarding your point, I think we're dangerously veering into platitudes. Of course I agree that a front page with "good" variety is better than a page with "repetitive" articles. And of course I agree that "too much conformity" is a bad thing. But I was originally countering the commonly spoken notion "If you don't like it, don't read it!" Because of the gain-for-one-is-loss-for- another nature of the front page, exactly _what_ appears on the front page drives the community. If too many off-topic posts become the norm, HN will become a general interest site, and lose the community that makes it so valuable.

edit: There is zero reason to downvote mikeash. I tried to correct with an upvote of my own, but apparently at least two HN readers are mistaken.

<comment><USER28> That makes me wonder about what the economics of having a dynamic number of articles in the front page instead of the fixed 30 would look like.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> The argentine peso inflates very rapidly, then the government slashes zeros off the end of the money. Why on earth would I work hard to exchange toil for receipts that don't hold their claim on human labor? If people convert the peso to the dollar then they can store wealth. What kind of monster forces people to store labor in recipts made up in diappearing ink? Isn't that watered down slavery? To toil and be unable to save any excess for later? Its a fate worse than death for me.

<comment><USER4> The kind of "monster" that wants the country as a whole to survive, not just the few lucky ones that can "store wealth".

<comment><USER36> These monsters should then vote for someone with economic sense, not the clusterfuck of idiots that you've been putting in power since the 1940's.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> Blatant advertisement: start your local bitcoin exchange today, escape the tyranny! <http://localbitcoins.com/cash_exchange_howto> ;)</comment>


Dow Drops 412 Points Because Everyone Is Afraid of Something - <AUTHOR> https://finance.yahoo.com/m/1dafea1a-ddf8-32f4-93df-a49e6a48a248/dow-drops-412-points-because.html <comment><USER2> Looks like the title has been updated to

"Dow Drops 832 Points Because Everyone Is Afraid of Something"

</comment><comment><USER3> It took a smashing. Is it all based on interest rates, or is there something more behind it?</comment>


Ask HN: My strange pain point – is it a startup idea? - <AUTHOR> I travel pretty often. I'm not exactly a digital nomad but I like to stay in cities around in other cities and do whatever I would have done at home otherwise. Mostly working on web projects.
And it's insane, how much time I spent on AirBnB and Booking.com, looking for the right apartments. Hours and hours of work that could be replaced with a simple database query if they had structured data. But even without, it could be made much easier with the right interface.
Two of my requirements make it so hard:
1) Top floor. I don't like people running 'on my head'.
2) A view. I don't like to look out of the window and stare at another house.
So I have to look at each offer on AirBnB and Booking.com and try to figure out if it matches those. This is hard enough. I even became super good at finding the apartments on Google Earth so I can look at them from the outside. Insane.
To add insult to injury, neither of the two sites offer to tag apartments as "I don't like it". So when I look at the same city another day, I have to start over and look at all those apartments I already looked at again.
On AirBnB I abuse the 'Wishlist' feature to mark apartments as 'Dont like it'. So my 'wishlists' are really 'dont wish lists'. But at least it somewhat works. They mark apartments on one of your wishlists with a heart. So I know that the apartments with a heart are those that I don't like :) Since they only allow 50 or so apartments on a wishlist, I have multiple wishlists for every city.
Realizing how much time I spend on this, I am considering to hire somebody for it. So I will have a database with apartments with a view.
What do you guys think? Should I then put it online? Like 'Nomad list with a view'? Or am I a unique snowflake? Or does something like this already exist? <comment><USER2> I used to work in the travel industry. You wouldn't believe the explicit wishes/demands of people: bed size, shower type, hard floors, no stairs, fridge, no yellow lights (really), double ply TP, south facing windows, vincinity of freeway exit, you name it.

The thing is: there's an infinite number of data you'd have to gather. I feel your pain (we need a children's cot and that alone is almost impossible to filter with AirBnB) but it'll be really hard.

<comment><AUTHOR> This is a misunderstanding. I would not gather data about bed size or shower type. All I want to do is assemble a list of top floor apartments with a view.

<comment><USER3> Those are your requirements.

Dirk is saying yours is one of a long list of very specific requirements people have requested in the past. You asked about a startup idea, so he is generalizing the problem to make it applicable for more users than just yourself, and pointing out how complicated it would be.

<comment><AUTHOR> I understood that.

But as I said, it's a misunderstanding. I am not thinking about a generalization. I am thinking about a site that lists apartments with a view. That's it. I wonder if that has enough merits to become a startup.

<comment><USER2> I'm going to steal your idea here but then for apartments with long beds!

All jokes aside, as a startup idea this would narrow your market down too much, I think. The number of people with specific apartment demands > number of people who want an apartment with a view. I could see some merit in having a site with a very large amount of very specific attributes that you can filter. But it's pain in the neck to gather all this data.

But don't take my word for it! If I could find a site that lists airBnB apartments with baby cots, a potty and socket covers I'd be sold!

<comment><AUTHOR> "this would narrow your market down too much"

How do you know? Can you quantify that somehow?

"people with specific apartment demands > number of people who want an apartment with a view"

The same could be said for every site. There is always a generalization that targets more people.

One essential advice for startups these days is that the initial target audience can very well be small. It's interesting to see that 'too small of a target audience' is the main counter argument in this discussion.

How big was the estimated target audience for AirBnBs original offering to house people on air mattresses?

<comment><USER2> You're reading too much into my words, I think. I meant the market size of "people with specific demands" is by definition larger than the subset "people with the specific demand of x". And yes, while it can't hurt starting with a small audience, you do have to find a way to broaden your market at some point. And stating 'if only 1% of the world population uses this it's still 76 million' isn't a very good way to define market size and there isn't a VC who will take this seriously.

It's funny that you bring up AirBnB because there is a well known story about their market size that Brian Chesky likes to tell:

 _Brian Chesky has a funny story that he tells about their continual difficulty guessing market size.

The Airbnb founders had no idea how large it was. How do you measure the size of the market for airbed rentals at conferences and political events?

Before one particularly important VC meeting, they put together a slide that asserted the size of the market was "$200 MM per year". Nate (one of the founders) felt deeply uncomfortable with this figure, and insisted they reduce it. So, they changed it to $20 MM.

Shortly before the investor meeting, Brian and Joe (without Nate) met with (now YC partner) Sam Altman, who told them "Investors like Billions not Millions, baby, so change the 'm's ' to 'b's!"

So, Brian and Joe changed the market size to $2 Billion -- unbeknownst to Nate -- who was shocked to see the much larger market size slide for the first time in the investor meeting...

Later on, after YC, when they first met with Sequoia, one of the partners there told them sequoia had been looking at the vacation rentals market for a long time -- and did they know that the vacation rental market was a $40 billion a year industry?_

You asked for an opinion if this would be a good idea for a startup. I gave you my honest insight. I'm not claiming to know everything or even to be right, but I don't have to prove you wrong by quantifying why your market size would be too small. My advice to you: if you ask for an opinion you either say 'thank you', ask for clarification, or prove my assumptions wrong. Right now it seems that all you want to hear is 'it's a great idea!'.

<comment><AUTHOR>
        Right now it seems that all you want to
        hear is 'it's a great idea!'.

No! If there are counter arguments, I want to hear them!

The more replies I get without counter arguments that convince me, the more I get the feeling this actually might be a good idea. Because if everybody tries to discourage me and all the arguments are just 'feelings' then maybe there are no hard facts that speak against it.

For example you said that you would steal the idea for apartments with long beds. This is an interesting argument. Because it made me compare Google trends for 'hotel with long bed' and 'hotel with view'. I also did that for 'hard floor' and all the other parameters you mentioned. And I saw that the demand for a view is by far the biggest.

        My advice to you: if you ask for an opinion
        you either say 'thank you'.

Thank you!

<comment><USER2> Ha! We're alike in the sense that the more people tell me it can't be done, the harder I work to prove the opposite. To sum up my counterarguments: I have a feeling the market size isn't goint to be big, and it's going to be pretty hard. And you're right, both arguments are not fact based.

Also: thank you for this reply. I re-read my parent comment and in hindsight I sound rather condescending. Not my intention, and I apologize.

All the best with your 'AirBnB with a view'!

<comment><AUTHOR> Great! I'm happy I did not completely disgruntle you and you still speak with me. I can be way too undiplomatic at times.

Small market + Hard problem sums up the responses here nicely. I like that! Because I'm not convinced the market is too small. And because I love hard problems!

I wonder what format I should use for my list so I can put it online easily... hmm... It would have to be one list for each city. Maybe I should put it all in one sqlite db and write a script that renders it to static pages, one page for each city?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I feel your pain. I've been travelling for the past 6 months, and have become the world's foremost critic of booking.com's UI in that time. That site, despite dominating the entire planet when it comes to such things, has no option to select [x] I REQUIRE A DESK TO WORK FROM

It's unbelievable how far gone these sites are from scenarios like yours and mine, and it'd be so easy to fix up.

Or they lack any understanding of the areas they market. I'm currently in Kathmandu, can I filter hotels by those that have a heater and hot running water? Of course not, but sure, I can filter by 100 options like "Airport shuttle", "24/7 front desk", and differentiate between a "hostel" and a "lodge", or whether the room has "soundproofing", 99% of these of which every hotel will tick yes to.

Another pain point -- WiFi. There are 100 ways they could measure this, but not a single one implemented, even a sliding "how shit was your connection? during the review, or, say, a surreptitious "How was your check-in?" e-mail that runs a miniature JS speed test in the background

Another travelling scenario - short term contracts around London. I don't care where I sleep, I care about rail and bus routes _only_. Can I search by that on any site? Of course not

Meanwhile I actually built a niche site around that last one, but it can't stand on its own -- it'd never become popular or turn any kind of profit, the only hope is that a big site with roaring revenues like Booking.com would somehow see the need, and spend a few working days worth of developer time on it. But that'll never happen, because the improvement to their bottom line would most probably be minimal -- I'll still use booking.com whether or not they implement the feature, because there are so view viable alternatives in this sector

<comment><AUTHOR> Would love to see your site. If you want to get in touch - I have put my email on my profile.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I hear you - I've often wanted a feature to reject apartments/hotels without an outdoor pool (don't like indoor pools).

The trouble is building a database is going to be a huge project and "view" is a little subjective. Wouldn't you have to basically replicate AirBnB's database but with a better interface? You would probably end up doing something like web crawling TripAdvisor or something like that (which is against their policies by the way).

Or is the plan to allow people to build their own personal lists from Booking.com, TripAdvisor, AirBnB etc.? - if the latter I think that is a good idea, but ultimately you've still got to find those apartments so you run into the original problem again.

p.s. writing this from 32 floor apartment with a spectacular view out over Manila. Not top floor but I've heard nothing at all from above me! (Booked via AirBnB)

<comment><AUTHOR> My 'plan' is very simple. It's just a list of links for each city. No community features or anything. Just the links to apartments that I myself found. Features could be added later. But the initial idea is to just put a list of links online. Probably with a line 'If you know about an apartment with a great view you want to share, please send it to ...@...'.

If you like, let me know which apartment it is in Manila and I will happily add it :)

<comment><USER5> Great idea then!

Twin Oaks Place, Manila. View from 32nd floor out over Manila is incredible especially at night. There are even distant mountains you can see once the smog clears in the morning! ;)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks! The "One-Bedroom Apartment" here?

[https://www.booking.com/hotel/ph/30-cd-twin-oaks- place.html](https://www.booking.com/hotel/ph/30-cd-twin-oaks-place.html)

I wonder if one is guaranteed to get it with a view or it could happen that you book and end up in a lower floor?

<comment><USER5> Yep, that's the one - I'm in the studio apartment - quite big though.

When you book you can ask the owner which floor it's on, so I knew I'd be on floor 32. They also usually have photos of the view as it's often a selling point.

Last place was floor 31 (Currency Services Suites). Was also up about floor 10 I think at St Francis PLace Shangri La - lovely apartment complex that is right opposite St. Francis church and Lourdes school.

Twin Oaks building goes well over 40 floors though I think. I can see the second tower through the large window here (that tower doesn't appear to have been completed yet). It goes way above me (at least 10 or 15 floors). I think if you are above say floor 10 you'd get a decent enough view. Warning though - even at floor 32 the traffic noise is noticeable, but not too bad.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> For tagging apartments as "I don't like it", you could create a browser extension that automatically hides them. That aside, I think dirktheman's comment is relevant; I don't think the data you want is useful for most other users.

<comment><AUTHOR> I never use browser extensions because of the security and privacy problems.

When you say 'most other users' \- can you quantify that? If for example 99% of the world population does not care, that would still leave me with 76 million people who do care.

<comment><USER7> If you build it yourself for yourself, you should be able to have some confidence re: security and privacy.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Probably too small a demand.

The general problem is property search with lots of options, and even that is a tricky niche... I worked at a company that tried to do this, and in the end we found it's too much work per niche.

Maybe if NLP gets a lot better.

<comment><AUTHOR> Can you quantify the small demand somehow?

Is an apartment with a view not something many people want?

When I look at r/digitalnomad, the top post right now is somebody showing of the view of their apartment.

Booking.com has a filter 'View'. So there must be some demand, right? The filter just does not work. When I look at apartments with a view in Bangkok the first 3 they show me are:

[https://www.booking.com/hotel/th/bangkokshortstay-3br- sukhum...](https://www.booking.com/hotel/th/bangkokshortstay-3br- sukhumvit.html)

[https://www.booking.com/hotel/th/aspira- parc-39.html](https://www.booking.com/hotel/th/aspira-parc-39.html)

[https://www.booking.com/hotel/th/ekkamai- prestige.html](https://www.booking.com/hotel/th/ekkamai-prestige.html)

None of these are what I mean with an apartment with a view. Some are just hotel rooms. Some seem to not have a view.

<comment><USER8> Estimate how many people are searching for property at a given time, how many of them would use your view-focused site (a tiny fraction), how many of them would find something through it and hence give you income (probably referral bonus from whatever big property listers you're partnering with).

Now weigh that against the cost of creating/running a site, and digging out the properties with a view.

I've not done this rigorously at all. But in the site I worked on, I suspect people filtering by facets similar to "has a view" were, optimistically, about 1% of our engaged audience. Conversion rates were like 5%. So that was probably a few tens of people per day (we had a fairly big audience!)

If you monetise by referral bonuses, you'll probably get tens of dollars per referral. So at most ~100USD per day.

Now consider the costs of setting up and running such a site. Remember that we were a global property search engine -- to get that thousands-strong audience, we were running all over the world.

IMO it just doesn't add up.

You can always prove me wrong! One way might be to focus on high-end clients, and somehow make more money from them... larger referral bonuses, for example, or having the clients pay you to find them properties with a good view.

But yeah, I remain sceptical.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I will suggest that people who want it with a view may be a small number, but probably a well heeled group. That absolutely does not make the radar of people on a budget. So if you build it, you might be able to charge a membership fee.

</comment><comment><USER10> Practical problem is how do you get hosts to provide all this extra info and trust them to be honest and accurate.

I can't even search for real estate and specify houses without getting apartments or vice versa

<comment><AUTHOR> I would just do what I already do. Look carefully at each apartment to see if it could have a nice view. I judge it by the photos, the description, customer reviews and Google street view.

Only apartments that might have a nice view go into my list.

I wonder if anybody else is interested in that list and if it would make an interesting website.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> a place where people could build sql queries and save them for others.

Maybe you could use:

[http://commoncrawl.org](http://commoncrawl.org)

I kinda remember a site that saves html in tables to be queried.

</comment><comment><USER12> What about sendin an automated massage to the landlord like "top floor with nice view?". What about not giving a fuck about such unimportant things and spending your time more wisely? I mean if I want to live every month in a different accommodation I can not expect having the same comfort than in my dream flat. It's like expecting that the food at a restaurant tastes like being cooked by my mother.

</comment><comment><USER13> I don't think there's a huge audience for this.</comment>


Phys Ed: What Really Causes Runner's High? - <AUTHOR> http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/16/phys-ed-what-really-causes-runners-high/ <comment><USER2> I've always hated running and have never been able to get a "runner's high" -- I wonder if there are people with fewer endocannaboid receptors than "normal," and of course, people with more.</comment>


Cambridge Analytica Suspends CEO Alexander Nix - <AUTHOR> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/cambridge-analytica-suspends-ceo-alexander-nix-jf00puyw <comment><USER2> Suspended from a shell company with no employees: [https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/976199917915033601](https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/976199917915033601)</comment>


Ethereum Constantinople protocol upgrade postponed until further notice - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/5chdn/status/1085275971660509184 <comment><USER2> Here's the EIP (Ethereum improvement proposal) causing problems. [https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/blob/master/EIPS/eip-1283.m...](https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/blob/master/EIPS/eip-1283.md)</comment>


A Man Who Forgot He Was a Rap Legend - <AUTHOR> https://www.gq.com/story/the-man-who-forgot-he-was-a-rapper <comment><USER2> Similar, but different - the star of Malcolm in the Middle doesn't remember that experience:

[http://ew.com/tv/2017/10/09/dwts-frankie-muniz-doesnt- rememb...](http://ew.com/tv/2017/10/09/dwts-frankie-muniz-doesnt-remember- malcolm-in-the-middle/)

It's wild how fragile and unknown memories are for us. Great quote from Bryan Cranston:

Cranston said he told Muniz not to worry about what he can't remember. Cranston starred with Muniz in 151 episodes of Malcolm. "They are still [his] experiences," Cranston said. "It will me my job, I will tell him, 'remember this? Remember that on Malcolm?' What a life for you."

<comment><USER3> I understand that the transient ischemic attacks can just happen anytime, but what caused his nine (!) concussions? Was it his career as a race car driver?

<comment><USER4> From [http://people.com/tv/frankie-muniz-secret-health- battle/](http://people.com/tv/frankie-muniz-secret-health-battle/)

> "Since 2006, I've broken 38 bones," says Muniz, who has also endured nine > concussions since the age of 7. "As a kid I did everything. I played ice > hockey, soccer, basketball, soccer. But a year ago I went roller skating, > and I was literally the dad holding onto the rail. I realized I have to take > care of myself." > > In 2009, Muniz had a serious accident on the race > track: "My car flipped a bunch and I crashed into a wall. In the end, I > broke my back, ankle, four ribs and my hand. My thumb was dangling by the > skin."

So, it sounds like a combination of multiple things.

<comment><USER3> Wow, it's crazy how much he's been through-- I guess it's good that he has started toning down his risk taking now.

<comment><USER5> Sounds like he's living life though.

<comment><USER6> In the way that someone with incredible dreams they forget upon waking is.

<comment><USER7> So, the same way we all are?

<comment><USER6> ...and that's why I have anxiety!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> "Computer programmed with just one finger Made complete for the chosen singer Once lyrics are finished, the picture is done The difference is this picture has no sun But there's plenty of bright, kaleidoscope light No color supersedes cause the balance is right Listeners are pleased cause anxiety is freezed And can only be thawed when the music is ignored"

\- It's yours! (1983) T La Rock

</comment><comment><USER9> `const theMan = 'T La Rock';`

Here's the B side edit of 1984's "It's Yours", one of T La Rock's most acclaimed songs. (by T La Rock, Jazzy Jay, Rick Rubin)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g42-LRWvcbY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g42-LRWvcbY)

#someMusicalRhythmsCanMessWithUrHead

<comment><USER10> Oh, I guess that's what Nas sampled for "The World Is Yours".

<comment><USER11> ...The track where he drops "I'm out for president's to represent me", which Jay-Z sampled for "Dead Presidents".

Turtles all the way down.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I don't know much about hip-hop or rap, but that was a damn gripping story.

<comment><USER13> If you're interested in learning more about the history, I'd recommend this documentary about the Roland TR-808 drum machine, which had a huge impact on hip-hop and electronic music. T La Rock and Rick Rubin are both in it. [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2268622/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2268622/)

<comment><USER12> thank you - probably not coincidentally, I'm interested in synthesizers and electronic music history :)

<comment><USER14> Just be sure to dig about jaydee - jay dilla, and pete rock. Real music.

ps: for the pro web digger around, I read once that before jaydee was introduced to proper audio hardware by amp fiddler, he used single tape deck and a pencil to overlay samples by hand. Maybe it's just a legend.. could never find neither the original article nor any other sources.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Damn. I can't believe even Tupac paid homage to him, produced with Rick Rubin and all. What an interesting read...

</comment><comment><USER16> Was hoping this would be about Mark Wahlberg.

<comment><USER17> I was expecting Stanley Kirk Burrell, now an ordained minister. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC_Hammer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MC_Hammer)</comment></comment>


Show HN: An embitious Hacker News reader built with Ember.js - <AUTHOR> http://chancancode.github.io/hn-reader/about

<comment><USER2> It would be nice if the previews would work without needing an API key :( - could you do a readability version and an iframe version?

one niggly visual thing! In Chrome (windoze 8 Version 40.0.2214.115 m) When I hover my mouse over the images in those 'cards' a new full height scrollbar appears on the right.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is beautiful. Add keyboard controls and it'll become my favorite way to read HN.

My only other suggestion is to remove the title bar above the article preview, since it pushes the content below the fold and doesn't contain new information

</comment><comment><USER4> Really love the design here. Is there a template (e.g. for Bootstrap) for this kind of responsive layout? Starting to see this more and more.

</comment><comment><USER5> Awesome job. Just needs infinite scroll added to the article list :}

</comment><comment><USER6> Plugin for firefox?

</comment><comment><USER7> FYI: Displays nothing (blank page) with cookies disabled.

</comment><comment><USER8> Beautiful, man

</comment><comment><USER9> such wow.

</comment><comment><USER10> IM ON THE INTERNET

</comment><comment><USER11> Sorry, we could not extract a preview for this article.

SO NICE SUCH FEATURES Just small recommendation -test your shit

<comment><USER12> A recommendation for you: read more than a couple of words before clicking to another thread to hate on - "Setup Readibility integration to enable article previews."</comment></comment>


Saturn's hexagon recreated in the laboratory - <AUTHOR> http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00002471/

<comment><USER2> Fantastic! I want to do such research, too. But now, back to finding that bug in my Java code. Sigh...

</comment><comment><USER3> Nice to see some independent investigation going on in a University, instead of more dry research.</comment>


Panera is losing nearly 100% of workers yearly amidst fast-food turnover crisis - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/29/fast-food-restaurants-in-america-are-losing-100percent-of-workers-every-year.html <comment><USER2> I'm reminded of something in academia. When one or two people fail a test, they probably messed up. When 50% or more fail a test, the teacher messed up.

I say to to say I hate when it is phrased as a "turnover crisis". No, working there is so bad that people either quit or find something better!

</comment><comment><USER3> Ha! We went into a Panera Bread last week. There were two counters but no service. We stood there for several minutes expecting someone to take our order at the counter and then realized there were iPads to place your order.

We ordered soup and bread and a couple drinks. For $20 you obviously get what you pay for, but is it a place I would really ever go out of my way to eat at? No.

It was clearly microwaved soup with way too much salt. The place was rather filthy inside. The people working there didn't want to be there and neither did we.

Maybe it's nostalgia but years and years ago I recall Panera having better service and food. I didn't really change my standard that much (we eat out a few times a year and not at upscale places).

<comment><USER4> _years and years ago I recall Panera having better service and food_

Panera used to be a public company. They got bought out by a giant conglomerate. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAB_Holding_Company](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAB_Holding_Company)

My recent experience mirrors yours. Much worse than in previous years. I don't have any urgency to ever go there again. But ... on the day I was there the place was pretty busy, so quite a few people still like it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> >>Some experts believe it is inevitable that fast food will be the first job sector ruled by robots.

Does anyone know of any companies that have mostly automated?

My local supermarket has doubled the number of self serve cashiers and reduced the regular cash registers by the same number. I hate using them but sometimes it's just so crowded that I feel I have to unless I want to spend a big chunk of my day there. If it's anything like that then it seems to me that the future kind of sucks.

<comment><USER6> I love the self-serve checkout!

Also the electronic ordering screen at the local Wendys. Less chance of screwing-up the order.

I think fast food should be more automated -- do you really need an actual human to lower french fries into oil and wait for the beep?

<comment><USER7> Of course you (and I!) do - we are HN readers. While I think there's a change afoot in the direction of not minding ordering or receiving goods without the help of a human, there's still a large swath of the population who wants a consultation and help when they are shelling out money. I also don't think it's entirely generational.

<comment><USER8> Self-checkout is significantly slower and more error-prone than using a cashier. It would be one thing if you could just walk your cart under a scanner and get a bill. But self-checkout is _exactly the same as regular checkout, but with nobody there to help you_. It's hideous for any orders with 10+ items.

<comment><USER9> The self checkouts I have used are explicitly worse than if they let you operate the regular checkout. I'd happily use the cashier's workspace and check myself out. Self checkout kiosks are a nightmare of user unfriendly design that assumes you are going to steal every chance you get. The workflow of cart --> scanner --> bag is hideous, the weight sensors to prevent theft fail to detect items all the time, entering produce codes takes forever since unlike the cashier you don't get dedicated controls, the bagging area is too small even if you have minimal items and since 6 other people are getting the exact same voice feedback nearby you can't distinguish which instructions are for you.

<comment><USER10> > the weight sensors to prevent theft fail to detect items all the time

I've noted the local stores I go to with self checkout have disabled the weight sensors. I think they've decided the slowdown and annoyance isn't worth the reduction in shrinkage. Also possible the reduction is nil.

<comment><USER11> I try to go through a line with a cashier if I can just to get my support for a human workforce into their metrics, but sometimes I have to use the self- checkout (often because it is the only option after certain hours.) I've noticed that when there is a problem with the anti-theft scale (usually because something has failed to scan because I am moving faster than the weight-check) the sole attendant will just cancel the "bagging alert" from their command station.

I imagine it's impossible to investigate every time the machine stops when one person is "monitoring" a dozen or more of these things.

I've stopped trying to rectify these errors and now just consider it as a discount for me having to take on the work they used to pay someone for. Perhaps the stores see it the same way and the loss is still way less than the cost of employees?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm fairly certain this is intentional. Workers can't unionize or agitate for better pay if they just leave after 6 months. The real question to ask the execs at these companies is: what did you do to _achieve_ such high turnover rates?

<comment><USER13> Turnover is expensive. There may be failures at different levels of management. I doubt there is conscious intent to oppress. More to the fact, how many fast food places are unionized these days and is that really even a major risk at this point in American history?

<comment><USER14> The article describes how the companies have made the jobs turnover proof. Turnover isn't expensive at these companies. Otherwise they would have stepped in and attempted to reduce the turnover rate. In reality they think they can make more money with high turnover.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Those companies have optimized for turnover. There is no "crisis" because the high turnover rate exists by design.</comment>


Quickly – Image Analyzer - <AUTHOR> https://apps.apple.com/us/app/quickly-image-analyzer/id1473146631 <comment><AUTHOR> This app is a proof of concept aimed at detecting users' needs. Please, try it and tell me about your experience. Would you use it? What more features would you like to have?</comment>