Why Java folks should stop looking down on C#: differences in similarities - <AUTHOR> http://blog.kalistick.com/java/why-java-folks-should-stop-looking-down-on-c-differences-in-similarities/ <comment> old-gregg Some Java folks are looking down on C#? I don't believe it :))

In my experience it's always been the opposite: C# guys have always looked down on Java folks. And rightfully so: the language itself is nicer, the standard library is much nicer, and the CLR+CIL are vastly superior to JVM, especially in memory management department.

<comment><USER2> >CLR+CIL are vastly superior to JVM, especially in memory management department.

This is an extremely disingenuous statement. You may be referring to the fact that the CLR/C# supports the notion of structs, and allows native memory management. However, as someone who has experience working on both the JVM and the CLR, I can say that the CLR's GC is primitive compared to the JVMs.

Biggest advantage off the top of my head is the JVM's garbage collector has a lot more tunable options. Different application's various heap profiles necessitate using them in high performance applications. I don't believe the CLR allows you to specify the size or number of various generations, or the number of collecting threads, all possible with the JVM collector(s).

Either way, the G1 trounces both the CLR and JVM's current collectors, so the JVM for java 7 will make the advantage even more apparent.

I'm less familiar with the internal workings of JIT compilers. I don't believe the CLR supports static analysis type optimizations, but perhaps the CLR team focused their research in other areas. If anyone knows more details on the differences in their JIT strategies I'd love to hear more.

<comment> old-gregg Meh. GC isn't terribly interesting. It's just a tool to manage internal heap for a process. The issue with JVM is simple: it's a memory hog and it hates to reboot because JVM thinks of itself (and behaves) as a "computer" instead of a "process": it slowly boots instead of starting, it doesn't fork nicely, it doesn't share any code with its own clone running side-by-side, it allocates more RAM that it needs on startup, basically behaves like a drunk asshole in a bar, hence no Java on the desktop. Dalvik, on the other hand, is "JVM done right".

CLR processes are just processes. They're integrated into a native VM, they are capable of code sharing and they use more compact in-memory representations of built-in types. CLR was designed to run on machines we're running it on, not with a goal of selling more of "big iron". CRL is great for general purpose software development, without cowardly "long-running" or "on dedicated box" prefixes attached.

<comment><USER3> I agree that the JVM is a bigger memory douche than a vodka-and-Red Bull addict with a new haircut, but I disagree that GC is a "meh" problem. In fact it seems that the CLR is still evolving in this area and can have serious issues with multi-GB heaps -- as does Java unless you incant the right incantations:

[http://www.simple-talk.com/dotnet/.net-framework/the- dangers...](http://www.simple-talk.com/dotnet/.net-framework/the-dangers-of- the-large-object-heap/)

Of course, one might say "don't use such big heaps dummy!" But that's a workaround. Due to fragmentation, sub-second GC latency is still a tough problem even for 1-2 GB heaps.

If C# would lead the way in a GC-friendly memory management scheme (maybe regions or something similar) they might win a lot of Java converts.

<comment> old-gregg Haha, great comment. Upvoted, and thanks for the link! :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> guard-of-terra After reading about "Explicit virtual methods" I lost all my interest in C# forever.

I don't want this, seriously do not want. I don't want a language "with lovely features from C++". Explicit virtual, structs - please take those and leave me alone.

Lambdas are nice, some syntax sugar is nice, but not that creep.

Please don't take this as flamebait. I know a handful languages, I do backend development and I just absolutely don't need some language features and I fear that somebody would use them in their little library and would POISON the lifes of anybody who touches it.

Java has some "do not want" features too, like checked exceptions, but those are more or less solved these days.

<comment><USER4> You're not the only person in that position. I'm a developer from the Java camp and moved over to the C# camp (by work necessity, Oracle, etc); and, of all the features of C# that I enjoy (Properties, Attributes, Lambda expressions, etc.) I absolutely abhor the idea that I, as a developer, have to know, perfectly, what future subclasses are going to want/need to run properly. It has never made sense and always felt like it was taking away one of the core tenants of object orientation (though I know that neither Java nor C# are true-OO languages). I know it probably technically doesn't, but that's how I've felt ever since I heard about doing it "another way"

<comment><USER5> As a library developer, you can explicitly declare all your methods as overridable. The key point is that in large scale software development, in Java, you can have the following undesirable situation:

Version 1, you import a third party library:

        public class ThirdParty
        {
            public void calculateAndPrintResult()
            {
                System.out.println("1");
            }
        }

        public class Mine extends ThirdParty
        {
            public void calculateAndPrintResult()
            {
                super.calculateAndPrintResult();
                this.printResult();
            }

            protected void printResult()
            {
                System.out.println("2");
            }

            public static void main(String[] arguments)
            {
                Mine mine = new Mine();
                mine.calculateAndPrintResult();
                // Prints 1, 2
            }
        }

Version 2, third party has refactored and introduced printResult. You swap in the new third party library and suddenly the behavior has changed:

        public class ThirdParty
        {
            public void calculateAndPrintResult()
            {
                this.printResult();
            }

            protected void printResult()
            {
                System.out.println("1");
            }
        }

        public class Mine extends ThirdParty
        {
            public void calculateAndPrintResult()
            {
                super.calculateAndPrintResult();
                this.printResult();
            }

            protected void printResult()
            {
                System.out.println("2");
            }

            public static void main(String[] arguments)
            {
                Mine mine = new Mine();
                mine.calculateAndPrintResult();
                // Prints 2 ! (wrong)
            }
        }

While this example is trivial, bear in mind, when you have programming in the large, i.e. large codebases with a lot of third party libraries and many teams of developers, you would rather not have surprises like this pulled on you, or you pulling surprises like this on other people.

It can take a lot of work tracking down this kind of bug.

When you finally realize this type of issue arises despite everyone following "best practice" OOP, then the reason is because "best practice" OOP is not actually best practice.

<comment><USER4> It prints "2%n2", where %n is the platform-specific newline; but that's not really important, as your point is still made.

I can see how that would become a problem, a potentially terrible problem, but for a situation like that, wouldn't private methods solve that problem?

I can see more complex situations with this, but at some point, and they'd be annoying to break down. I don't throw out my position on this, though, as good documentation could help at least a few cases of this. Also, newer versions of Netbeans encourage the use of the @Override attribute, to help ensure things like this down happen, I imagine (I don't actually know what the @Override attribute is for, as I've only used it in large Java projects where I was the only developer).

<comment><USER5> > wouldn't private methods solve that problem?

Not if the third party developer intends to override it in his own subclasses.

Documentation may solve the issue, but this goes against the "just works" philosophy.

The root of the problem is versioning. Your class was developed against version 1 of the base class. You expect further changes in implementation of the base class should not materially affect your running code.

To achieve this, one of the sacrifices is the all methods are not overridable by default (i.e. not virtual), but instead have to be explicitly declared virtual AND the subclass has to explicitly state they wish to override the base class.

<comment><USER6> Why is it reasonable or desirable for a programmer to expect that switching to a new version of a library should have no effect on dependent code?

<comment><USER5> the problem runs deeper. When version 2 of the ThirdParty class ships, suddenly your class doesn't work. If another team has subclassed your class and overridden your printResult routine, you are effectively stuck. You can't take in bug fixes that exists in version 2 and the other team effectively couldn't move forward either. Remember, this is best practice OO, and there really hasn't been any changes to the interface. So effectively this is like version 1.01.

It is namespace pollution of a very subtle and devious kind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Considering that for the last several years nearly every significant improvement to Java has come from them copying from C#, if anyone should be looking down it is the C# folks.

<comment><USER8> I've been working in C# for the last five years or so, and I couldn't ever consider going back to Java again, every time I look at some code, even my own, I just see all the nice things that are missing.

There is so much that might seem like syntactic sugar at first, but when you get into it, you can just express yourself in a lot less code compared to Java. Sadly, there also seems to be a culture thing around Java to make things needlessly complicated, whereas the culture for C# is about writing less.

<comment><USER9> I've started using Jython along with Java at work to get some of the syntactic niceties described for C#. But it would be nice to get the syntax without having to cross language boundaries.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Once you hit a particular point in your personal/professional development, you'll stop looking down on just about everything.

</comment><comment><USER11> It'd be tough to argue that Java is better than C# (the programming language). The benefits of Java come not from the programming language, but from the ecosystem, the JVM, the libraries, and the platform.

<comment><USER12> To be honest, I'd say a lot of the java ecosystem exists to make up for failings in java itself. A lot of other languages are just plain better out of the box with either more robust built in features or language design that avoids common problems. For example, C# doesn't need the equivalent of spring and hibernate because there are equivalent, or indeed superior, built in or 1st party options in the form of LINQ and asp.net mvc. Similarly, there's less need for 3rd party build tools like ant because msbuild is available right out of the box.

<comment><USER13> I think you mean LINQ to SQL rather than LINQ - LINQ is a query language, not the ORM/provider. Last I heard MS were trying to deprecate LINQ to SQL in favour of the entity framework.

In practice a lot of developers end up using open source build tools like nant and rake in preference to msbuild as they tend to be more flexible in other build environments like TeamCity/Hudson.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Credit has to go to Anders Hejlsberg, who keeps innovating upon C#. Microsoft in this case has played to their strengths because

1) it does not have to worry about language standardization and the various community processes that accompany Java.

2) Anders is exceptionally good at deciding what language features are go/no go.

<comment><USER14> Nitpick: You're right that the C# designers don't have to worry about a JCP- like standardisation process, but they do put some effort into producing a formal language standard (I think through ECMA). Unlike earlier Microsoft proprietary languages, where the language definition was whatever the compiler said it was, the C# team do try to pin it down, make sure all the edge cases are considered, and so on. The compiler implementers try to write to this spec. They don't always succeed, but from what I read on compiler guy Eric Lippert's blog, when they do diverge, he regards that as a bug in the compiler, not an error in the spec.

That said, the standard is very much owned and written by Microsoft. You're absolutely right that they don't have to work through a JCP-like process.

<comment><USER5> Yes, you are right. Despite it's proprietariness, C# enjoys having team that is very rigorous and have a great deal of compiler experience. Eric Lippert is super cool. In fact, C# remains one of the reasons why I still root for MS.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> If Java could be redesigned from scratch, with no concern for backwards compatibility, it would probably look a lot like C#.

<comment><USER16> Indeed. Java, from the programming language design standpoint, has made some very poor decisions. The following come to mind immediately:

* Lack of first class functions

* 'null' type

C# has fixed both of those.

<comment><USER17> More to the point, C# has integrated an excellent map-reduce framework in the guise of (P)LINQ. Java still doesn't have anything analogous to that, nor does it plan to, if the latest roadmaps are any guide.

<comment><USER13> I'm not certain that Java really needs this. Developers that wan't a more functional style should consider making a transition to Scala or Clojure.

Scala can evolve at a much faster pace than Java as well, given that the core language is tiny and most of the language constructs are implemented as libraries.

<comment><USER18> _I'm not certain that Java really needs this_

We weren't certain that C# needed it. Until we tried it.

<comment><USER19> He didn't say they weren't useful, just that Java the Language doesn't need it, due to the fact other languages that have interoperability with Java on the JVM have these features already. .NET isn't as language rich as the JVM currently unless I missed some major changes.

<comment><USER18> I get that you can call across to another language that has more functional features. But that's not the same as having little bits of it right there. e.g. when you want to find the latest item in a list, instead of a loop, you do:

       return purchaseList.OrderBy(pur => pur.Date).FirstOrDefault();

and carry on. It's great. You don't tend to have that fine granularity when working across languages.

I don't know if you missed F# or not, but if you want a fully functional language in the ML / Ocaml lineage on .Net, you can write some code in that and interoperate.

<comment><USER19> I have worked with F# in a limited degree, but one choice is not as good as all the options given by the JVM right now.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The author makes some fair points. Java generics are a bit clunky. C#'s more liberal application of autoboxing can be nice. Some other options for string literals would be helpful, especially for writing regular expressoins without a ton of backslashes.

Checked exceptions are not something that I'd happily give up. We do have unchecked exceptions (RuntimeException), and the JRE generally uses them where appropriate. But what about methods like Inflater.inflate, ImageIO.read, or Class.getMethod? If these didn't throw checked exceptions, we would sometimes forget to catch exceptions which should almost always should be caught. It would be a step in the direction of a weaker type system, unhelpful errors, and less graceful recovery.

Regarding initializers, we can do the same thing in Java by giving an initializer block to an anonymous class:

        List<Integer> L = new ArrayList<Integer>() {{
            for (int i = 0; i < 10; ++i)
                add(i);
        }};

<comment><USER18> Equivalent code in c#:

         var l = new List<int>(Enumerable.Range(0, 10));

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Too bad he didn't get into any of the stuff that really makes C# nicer than Java, in my opinion: lambda expressions and closures, LINQ, expression trees, dynamic typing, type inference, P/Invoke vs JNI.

Also the event / delegate thing makes C# really nice for GUI stuff.

<comment><USER22> If you read the small print you will see that his next blog post is going to be about exactly that!

<comment><USER21> Oops, thanks... missed that last paragraph there.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Delegates + Events are another innovation in C#, is a much cleaner approach than Java anonymous classes + interfaces IMHO. I think anonymous classes are good in both compilers but Java is really missing a delegate/event standard system.

</comment><comment><USER24> Suprised that reflection wasn't really mentioned outside of the concept of generics. Reflection in .NET (and C#) is extremely powerful and useful.

All those other things that people have already commented on like Lambdas, expression trees, events and delegates, are incredibly nice to have.

Here's the first thing I write when I start a Java project, followed directly by an abstract class based on it:

public interface ICallback<T> { public void Invoke(T state); }

<comment><USER6> Does that give you something better than Fuction<T,V> (aside from not requiring a return type)? [http://google- collections.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/javadoc/c...](http://google- collections.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/javadoc/com/google/common/base/Function.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I always enjoy these Java vs. C# threads. They are like dispatches from a world where there are only two, absolutely terrible, languages. It makes me happy that I live in a world where I can choose between dozens of languages, some of them actually decent.</comment>


Show HN: The world's fastest app builder for Windows and Mac - <AUTHOR> http://appshare.co <comment><AUTHOR> This is an experimental app builder that I made which allows you to build intranet apps with Vue.js and Sqlite as the backend. Each app gets its own Sqlite database and has Ruby on Rail style database migrations in the comments at the bottom of the file like this:

/* sqlite( [ "Create the initial item table", ["CREATE TABLE items (id TEXT, name TEXT);", "alter TABLE items add column time INTEGER;"] , "Add a column for the user name", ["alter TABLE items add column user TEXT;"]

])//sqlite

</comment><comment><USER2> Can you give some more info about what this is, it's not really obvious what it is and what it does.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, sure will do</comment></comment>


Game of Thrones Premiere Triggers Piracy Craze - <AUTHOR> http://torrentfreak.com/game-of-thrones-premiere-triggers-piracy-craze-140407/ <comment><USER2> "We think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. For example, if a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24/7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region- locked, will come to your country three months after the U.S. release and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable." \- Gabe Newell IGN Interview (Nov 25 2011) [link]

[link] [http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/11/25/gabe-says-piracy- isnt...](http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/11/25/gabe-says-piracy-isnt-about- price)</comment>


Video matters But which hosting service to use? - <AUTHOR> http://blog.pragmatic.ly/how-we-choose-the-right-video-service-for-us <comment><USER2> Thanks for sharing. Since youtube is blocked in China(mainland), I suggest using video service like Youku and Tudou, which should support high quality video, too.

Since I've been working in an angel investment company in China, after dealing with a lot of startupers, I found most of them haven't realized how big huge potential promption value video.

<comment><USER3> I think advertisement is still a problem. You might not want your users watch the other AD. :p

<comment><USER2> exactly, doesn't youtube have AD?

<comment><USER3> I think Youtube doesn't have AD for embed player by default at least for now. :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Youtube also has the advantage of discoverable. The downside is that you don't "own" the comments. If someone puts in a bad comment everyone else will see.

I'll give SublimeVideo a look.. seems interesting

<comment><USER5> I tried a bit SublimeVideo, it seemed a bit slow in mainland China, not so sure about this, but clearly the SublimeVideo website takes ages to load here.

I finally gave it up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Wistia sounds very interesting. What's the point of knowing how audience is watching? What are the metrics you want to measure?

<comment><USER3> You might be interesting in when your users quit from the video. That can help you optimize the video or your product. And it aslo can give where the audiences from.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> High quality matters most actually, video platform is a social community as well which most people don't realize it is

</comment><comment><USER8> It really takes time for the god to realize the value of your business.</comment>


Show HN: Blink.js - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/samgranger/blink.js

<comment><USER2> That's fantastic, I whipped something similar up about a year ago. It depends on jQuery though as I was mostly just messing around: [https://github.com/RyanNielson/182js](https://github.com/RyanNielson/182js)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, still need to get rid of browser check and cache the DOM elements.

Thought about using jQuery first, but then questioned myself how many people who use the blink tag actually use jQuery :). Still, cool piece of code!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I feared this day would come.</comment>


Why Open Source Software Is Moving to GitLab After Microsoft-GitHub Deal - <AUTHOR> http://www.itprotoday.com/open-source/why-open-source-software-moving-gitlab-after-microsoft-github-deal <comment><USER2> I'm not sure why this is an article. It's obviously because Microsoft has a reputation for harming open source software. That reputation was very fairly earned, regardless of the company's current stance. The sad part is that no matter what happens now, Microsoft will never get any credit for doing anything right with GitHub.

If a new feature is released and people don't _immediately_ like it, it will be, "See, I knew Microsoft would ruin GitHub," or "It doesn't matter that this is optional, it means that Microsoft is trying to control our workflow!"

If a new feature is released and people like it, it will be, "I bet Microsoft is going start charging for feature," or "Yeah, but if you spend 50 times the effort, this other forge site kind of almost does the same thing," or "This is just Microsoft trying to shove GitHub down our throats."

If GitLab or similar open source forges fail because it can't find a sustainable business model or because GitHub remains an actual better product, people will blame Microsoft for "intentionally destroying GitLab to get a monopoly over forge sites."

Regardless of how paranoid the reactions to GitHub are in the future, you can bet that a large portion of the community will be unable to look past their hatred of the company. That's not entirely unwise, and Microsoft isn't the only company with this kind of extremely poor reputation (Oracle and Facebook) or just increasingly unfavorable reputations (Amazon, Google, and Apple), but that doesn't make it less reactionary, either.

</comment><comment><USER3> "While Microsoft talks a nice game now with regard to Linux and FOSS, it hasn't really backed it up with significant actions that merit our trust,"

[https://hub.docker.com/r/microsoft/mssql-server- linux/](https://hub.docker.com/r/microsoft/mssql-server-linux/)

[https://github.com/Microsoft/dotnet](https://github.com/Microsoft/dotnet)

[https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode](https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode)

[https://github.com/Microsoft/ChakraCore](https://github.com/Microsoft/ChakraCore)

[https://www.zdnet.com/article/top-five-linux-contributor- mic...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/top-five-linux-contributor-microsoft/)

[https://www.networkworld.com/article/3120774/open-source- too...](https://www.networkworld.com/article/3120774/open-source- tools/microsoft-s-the-top-open-source-contributor-on-github.html)

[https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/powershell-is-open- so...](https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/powershell-is-open-sourced-and- is-available-on-linux/)

What the heck more does this person want? I mean I understand that old feelings die hard but come on!

Look, I'm not a Microsoft fan and was around for evil Microsoft, but I have to roll my eyes at a lot of the reaction and panic for this whole Github purchase. Looking at the recent purchase of LinkedIn, the product hasn't changed much from the original purchase, and I don't expect Github to change that much either. That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it, but I think that's a stronger argument for leaving Github than "Micro$oft is going to kill FOSS!"

<comment><USER4> A counter example is Skype. They have destroyed the reliability, and turned the app into an embarrassing toy in an attempt to push serious users towards Skype for Business. They are also basically requiring the use of the Windows App Store version, which is seriously lacking in both features and usability. A true study that MS has not changed it's stripes that much.

<comment><USER5> I think you should look into how shady the P2P model of Skype was and how easily super nodes could eavesdrop on other users.

It was also completely unreliable when a large chunk the user base switched to mobile messages won't send, send out of order, would go into the limbo only to appear X days or even months later and if you were signed into multiple devices you were out of luck since if your desktop would've received a message while your mobile didn't you would never see it on your mobile.

Skype died for many reasons MSFT not continuing with its botnet like network model as it's a huge liability for them isn't one of them.

<comment><USER6> Is Skype really dead? I still use it and it works and other people that I know use it. So, I wouldn't really call it dead I guess.

I think it died with a certain crowd maybe.

<comment><USER5> I stopped using it even to talk to my mother who's almost 80 everyone I know dropped it for WhatsApp and FaceTime.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Because software engineering stopped being rational and has largely become a game of emotions and marketing? If you can trust Google and Facebook, then you can trust Microsoft.

<comment><USER4> Google does not have the same history of hostility towards Open Source and the market in general. Microsoft continues to be adversarial to almost all players in most markets, so why would one expect them to be different here? Only those who have short memories and are not students of history.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm curious if someone at MS or GitHub tipped GitLab on Saturday evening to be prepared for additional traffic. Seems like it would have been a nice thing to do.

<comment><USER9> Going by my webhooks firing upwards of 15 minutes after the git push to my (already on GitLab) repos when the migration started I'm going with no, it feels reactive rather than proactive

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Any big projects that moved already? Or those thousands of repositories are dot files?

<comment><USER11> Honestly once Microsoft takes over GitHub I may migrate my GitLab / BitBucket projects to GitHub. It will not surprise me if they open source GitHub and allow private repositories to be hosted for free. They ran CodePlex for 0 profit. They can make some profit off GitHub but probably can afford not to turn it into a cash cow and thats ok for them to do because their profits will come from elsewhere. GitHub is going to be their way to ultimately give back like never before to all developers on all platforms. Disclaimer I don't work for Microsoft I just don't drink the Koolaid of blind hatred.

<comment><USER12> Yeah given how much they paid it's clear they're not intending to directly profit from Github's sales. Allowing free private repos seems a logical step

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> The key issue is you cannot trust whatsoever and whosoever if they were the key cornerstone of your movement. You have to have diversity and difference shall be embedded in any movement that ultimately rely upon self independence not rely upon the mercy of a big group - Facebook, Google or Microsoft. No. Can't.

Similar to Communist China. During the first two decades in its reform, it is fine. We have hope. There is democracy. And if one shout hard enough, it let some air in and some human rights lawyer can survive.

But once it grow to the size that is no longer viable to let it go. Then dictatorship (even within their ranks) and no-freedom using IT.

We cannot wait until the Microsoft will be bad, good a bit and may turn bad. Unless we have a say and ensure that it is not the monopoly, we cannot be rest. The world is nasty and best intent may not be good enough. The structure of unity power end with bad.

Choice first. The rest can sort it out in due course.</comment>


Ask HN: Canadian visa woes. Should I try Australia? - <AUTHOR> I came to Canada a few months back, looking for a Front-End / Full-Stack Developer position. After months of search, I finally found a startup who was ready to sponsor me. After making me fly from Toronto to Vancouver, telling me they would like to "go ahead", and wasting 45 days of my time ("We're talking to the lawyers") they stopped answering my emails. I'm in a fix now. My visa here expires soon, and I don't think I can find a company here to sponsor me.
I am 23-year old, self-taught, with 4-years of experience and have an impressive portfolio. Most of my work has been around JavaScript - Angular, React, and Node. On the back-end, Laravel on PHP. I have been working on my own projects for the past few years, and make enough money to sustain. I am looking to work with an exciting startup, and settle down somewhere.
These are my options now:
1. Go to Sydney, Australia, and look for work sponsorship there
2. Get a 1-year diploma in Canada. It gives me a 1-year work visa. Then, find someone to sponsor me in those 2 years
I looked at UK, but getting a visa without a college degree seems quite hard. Also, I'd have to wait for 5+ years to get residency.
I don't qualify for Working Holiday Visa.
Any advice? Is getting sponsorship with an Australian company any easier than Canada? <comment><USER2> I am also looking to go to Australia, and read up quite a bit about it. Below is a rough summary (by me). It may contain errors.

Part 1: There are two ways to go about it. One option is to first get a Skilled Immigrant Permanent Residence visa (189) and then apply for a job.

Another is to find an employer to sponsor a Skilled (Temporary) visa (457).

The advantages of permanent resident visa (Skilled Independent Visa, 189):

1\. Visa is permanent: you can change jobs

2\. You can enroll for public healthcare and get many public benefits (e.g. child care rebates)

3\. You do not need to have a job offer to go to Australia

4\. A company does not need to sponsor your visa. This means that smaller companies can employ you. For 99% of the jobs, you are equal to an Australian citizen (some jobs like government/security jobs, you need to be a citizen)

5\. Children born during PR receives Aus citizenship.

6\. After 4 years, you can apply for Australian citizenship.

The problem with the 189 visa is that it is based on a point system. This point system takes into account:

1\. Degree (or equivalent work experience), 2. Age, 3. English language ability, 4.Work experience, 5\. Field of employment (should be on the Skilled Occupations List). Software engineering is.

Another problem is that it can take quite a while to get it. The process is:

1\. Do a skills assessment (Australian Computer Society)

2\. Lodge expression of interest (now your watch begins ;) )

3\. Get an invitation to apply

4\. Apply (with police clearance, medical clearance, etc.…). Costs around AUD$3000

<comment><USER2> Part 2:

The advantages of the temporary work (skilled) visa (457) is:

(1) Easier to obtain than 189, (2) Cheap and quick (within 6-8 weeks), (3) No skills assessment, (4) lower English requirements, (5) you have 90 days to find a new employer if you lose your job, (6) employer may be able to sponsor you for a permanent visa after a while.

I think this visa is much better than equivalent visas in other countries.

The disadvantages of this visa is:

1\. You have to get private medical care (can be expensive)

2\. Private medical care has some waiting time ( _big_ problems if you get pregnant within 12 months of entering Australia)

3\. Employers have to be recognized by DIBP (only larger well established companies)

4\. Employers must do market testing and prove that they cannot fill the position with an Australian citizen (less jobs)

PS: There are other variations on these visa schemes. For instance, if you get state sponsorship, you can apply for a 190 visa (and receive more points). There are other visa classes for recent graduates (485). There is also working holiday visa (417). The impression that I get however is that 90% of people either start with a 457 or 189 visa.

PPS: I encourage you to do a skills assessment to check if you qualify for a 189 visa. Here is the test: [http://www.harriswake.com/skillselectpointscalculator](http://www.harriswake.com/skillselectpointscalculator)

For job search sites, use indeed.au and seek.au. Note that most jobs do not sponsor 457 visas.

Also, all jobs on [http://www.austjobs.com/](http://www.austjobs.com/) sponsor visas.

PPPS: Forgot to add: Melbourne is (IMHO) much better to live in than in Sydney. Both are large cities (4 million+), but the cost of living in Melbourne (rent) is much lower. See here: [http://goo.gl/pCwKNO](http://goo.gl/pCwKNO)

<comment><USER3> And here is some aggregated data from Nomad List that might help you compare short to medium-term living in Melbourne vs. Sydney.

                               | Melbourne | Sydney
        </comment></comment></comment><comment></comment><comment></comment><comment>---- | </comment><comment>--- | </comment><comment>
        Internet               | bad       | bad
        Fun                    | good      | great
        Nightlife              | good      | bad
        Free WiFi in city      | bad       | great
        Places to work from    | okay      | good
        A/C or heating         | great     | great
        Cost of living         | okay      | bad
        Quality of life        | good      | good
        Safety                 | good      | good
        Friendly to foreigners | good      | great
        English speaking       | great     | great
        Racial tolerance       | good      | good
        Female Friendly        | great     | good
        Gay Friendly           | good      | great

Admittedly the qualitative scale is subjective, but it is based on individual responses.

[https://nomadlist.com/melbourne- australia/scores](https://nomadlist.com/melbourne-australia/scores)

[https://nomadlist.com/sydney-australia/scores](https://nomadlist.com/sydney- australia/scores)

</comment><comment><USER4> Where are you from? Most visa laws are related to the applicant's country of citizenship.

A few points:

\- Australia is a great place to live (I am Australian, lived there till my late 20s), but be aware that it's expensive compared to e.g. USA.

\- While you _can_ apply for a PR (permanent resident) visa from within Australia, it's _much_ cheaper to do it from outside the country.

From a more general view I see two points here: You want to work as a developer on cool projects, and you want to live somewhere nice.

To me, those are not necessarily related to each other. Remote working is real, and often the nicest places to live (IMO) are the places where it _isn 't_ convenient to commute to a 'regular' office every day.

I first got into remote working through X-Team [1], and while I've moved on to my own company now, I would still recommend them to anyone who wants to work on amazing projects without being tied to an office in NYC, London or SV.

[1] [http://x-team.com](http://x-team.com)

<comment><AUTHOR> I am from India.

Sydney does seem quite expensive, but I'm okay with it.

 _You want to work as a developer on cool projects, and you want to live somewhere nice._

That sums it up. I have been traveling and working remotely for 2+ years now. It was fun a while, but I don't see myself doing it in the long run.

<comment><USER4> I guess it depends what sort of lifestyle you want.

Remote working doesn't necessarily mean travelling. I've been "remote" working since 2009, and in that time I've lived in 4 houses in two cities (2 in Melbourne, and we've just moved into our second place since being in Thailand)

One thing to keep in mind is that the 'startup' industry is much less active in Australia, and in my experience salaried tech jobs (as opposed to contracts/b2b consultant type work) in Australia in general are quite low, unless you're doing doing "enterprise" stuff for government/banks/etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> For what it's worth, at Atlassian we're hiring pretty heavily. I just started in Sydney with them and they offered me a 4 year work visa with the option to get permanent residency.

</comment><comment><USER6> My 2 cents.

Step 1: Apply for the work and holiday visa for Australia. Gives you 1 year of working rights.

Step 2: Arrive to Sydney and look for a job. There is a lot of demand out there so ONLY start working for a company that can sponsor your after 6 months. (457 visa)

Step 3: Work hard play hard and get sponsored (company pays for it, its super easy)

Step 4: Stay in Australia for as long as you want, save money and then travel the world.

Salaries? Check out seek.com.au

Source? myself I've done that.

<comment><AUTHOR> I don't qualify for Working Holiday Visa.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Join any college program, convert to student visa in Canada. While on student visa, primarily focus on finding job (studies are secondary). Once you find job and get work authorization, drop out of college and start working. Go for your option 2.

Anyway, for the long term, try to get any 4-year degree in IT/CS while working (online, remote, part-time). The degree will help you in the future to overcome bureaucracy. You might benefit from being in Canada if you want to migrate to US.

</comment><comment><USER8> Which Vancouver company left you hanging high and dry?

</comment><comment><USER9> I find the background of this story ironic considering that every six months the Canadian government but mostly Quebec sends people around the world to motivate people with professional education and/or work experience to immigrate there. I have a similar profile as OP but after six years and four different attempts to immigrate to both Quebec (once) and Canada (three times) I have decided to give up; even my Canadian co-workers say that my profile is good. It doesn't makes sense why those two governments (apparently) don't follow the progress of an immigrant to avoid what OP is currently experiencing. An immigration process is so tedious that ending up wasting time, energy and money is not affordable.

OP I hope you can find a good company to sponsor you.

<comment><USER10> The Canadian immigration system is kafkaesque for some unlucky souls. The rules change rapidly, the wait times reported online are not credible. All our recently interactions have been beyond terrible.

My suggestion to the OP is consider applying for a student visa in Canada and enroll in an undergrad program.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> If you don't qualify for a work visa, I would advise to try and get an extension there before going to aus.

Side note, I'm Australian and my wife is Japanese, beware that she had a bit of a hard time there due to not being native(we left because of that about 4 years ago).

As for a visa while in aus, it was fairly expensive i remember thinking for her(on a spouse visa so your millage may vary).

I wish you the best of luck, and for the record we were in Melbourne, so the apparent dislike towards non Australians may be different in Sydney(the only city I haven't lived in, in aus).

I wish you the best of luck nk matter your choice.

</comment><comment><USER12> Most large software companies here will do LMIA for you. How long do you have left on your work permit? If you have at least 2-3 months and would like to work on a cloud-based analytics product, shoot me an email. If you get hired, and apply for a work permit, you can still be here on implied status until you get it (i.e. kosher to stay, cannot easily come back if you leave though).

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, but I'm not super keen on working with an enterprise company. SAP and Amazon are probably the two companies that don't see LMIA as an hindrance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Hi, could you give me you email or some way to contact you? I am doing the same procedure and I would like to ask you a couple of things. I am deciding between Australia and Canada.

Thank you!

</comment><comment><USER14> It's actually legal to work for foreign companies whilst in Canada on a tourist visa. If that helps your situation.

</comment><comment><USER15> Why not look for sponsorship before moving over? That way you can try multiple countries and move only if you do have something sorted out.

</comment><comment><USER16> 2), inasmuch as I can't see how you can legally do 1).

<comment><AUTHOR> 1\. I can come to Australia for 6 months on a visitor visa

<comment><USER16> ... which doesn't allow you to work or to look for work.

<comment><USER17> It says on border.gov.au:

 _The Business Visitor stream is for people travelling to Australia for a short business visit. This includes making a general business or employment enquiry, negotiations or participating in a conference._

<comment><USER16> 6 months is not 'short', and you have - while negging me I presume - overlooked the documentation requirements for such a visa: [https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/600-/Visitor- visa-(sub...](https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/600-/Visitor- visa-\(subclass-600\)-Business-Visitor-Stream-document-checklist)

(bottom of page)

<comment><USER17> I went through the same process to get Visa for Canada and the USA, only with more documents.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Australia got really, really hard to emigrate into without a degree. Up until 3 or 4 years ago you could be a tattoo'd dude with a long list of minor convictions (misdemeanors) and as long as you could ground a Hilti properly, you'd basically be guaranteed a work visa. Most countries have a point system where ~40% of it is 'do you have a bachelors', another 30% will be a job offer in an industry that's understaffed (e.g. Australia's mining boom in the late 00s, early 10s, as a result of Chinese demand for iron ore (11% of it's domestic export, 2001, tied with _wool_ ; 2011: between 50-55% of domestic exports (wool had decreased to ~5%) needed a lot of blue-collar folk from the States to take foreman positions (i.e. those positions were in drastic demand, so, barring a felony, a high school drop-out with US domestic experience would command 6 figures). Sydney rules, Melbourne is fun too, but they're both expensive as hell and it's not without it's racism either. I haven't had the unfortunate experience of such events but I've been fairly lucky in that regard (even in rural Alabama I get along well, minus a few comments about a Somerville accent that comes out after a few drinks).

Up until ~2 years ago, New Zealand was both a) actively seeking skilled laborers with or without degrees and b) had a pretty healthy tech scene. I've heard recently things have become far more difficult. 5+ year for PR/green- card status is really about course for any nation where anyone would want to emigrate to. I'm sure you could expedite the process if you were looking for citizenship in Yemen, but enjoy your stay haha.

I'm fluent in Spanish and was considering buying a vacation home in Seville when their economy crashed. I didn't even want work visa status (I'd be a net benefit for their nation, just consuming their alcohol, culture and women), much less EU citizenship. Despite being well-educated, not seeking a work visa, liquid enough to prove I'm not going to be a burden on their healthcare or an economic migrant looking to take away their domestic jobs - still the path to permanent residency was enormous. Berlin is my favorite city of all. My German is conversational and don't get me started on the tedious process just to PR - since I don't have German blood, I don't think I can even naturalize. I know some unfortunate souls with PhD's in the hard sciences who have been in "waiting for US Green Card" limbo for > 12 years (and these guys aren't going to be picking fruit - their return-on-value would be enormous -- if there were a commodity of specific tranches of humans on which I could trade, I'd place a few hundred k USD on some bright men and women I know).

You're in a really good position - stay in India, establish corporate work in Lichtenstein or the Isle of Man or whatever, and shake enough hands to establish the contacts required find the demand-side of work. Then supply the labor for whatever is in demand at the time. If you can find reliable, skilled labor in India, arbitrage off the USD/INR gap and make a fortune. When my firms at capacity, we outsource to basically every nation[1]. Engineers from the former Soviet states are more or less 100% reliable and the quality of code is on par if not better than the average US citizen @ 40% the wage (plus I don't have to pay their 8% end of SS).

Certain nations offer (or previously did offer, I'm not sure if the policies remain) immediate citizenship if invest X amount of money in their domestic economy. You show Y amount of liqudity, Z amount of capital assets and reasonable proof that you'll hire $num of their nationals. Ireland had that policy during their economic crash (no idea if it's still there, but that's a powerful Schengen Area passport for something cheap like a million in capital assets, 25% of which should be fungible), and Latvia (?) I think was another one.

[1] GSA Alliant fed work notwithstanding. In that case we do what everyone else does and hire mediocre staff that'll pass SF-86 clearance, pay them a nominal salary, bill them out at triple to the DoD and let them sit around filling seats, playing with their phone until the duration of the contract is over, while one or two talented engineers do the bulk of the work and get a 150% performance bonus.</comment>


Once a Year Your Data is Corrupted, Happy Halloween - MySQL Bugs: #38455 - <AUTHOR> https://bugs.mysql.com/bug.php?id=38455 <comment><USER2> Why won't the fix this? I'm probably missing something but it seems rather bizarre.

<comment><USER3> Why would Oracle want to fix bugs in MySQL?

Sure they want to give the appearance of caring, but the worse that MySQL looks the better that Oracle looks. Maybe it's fixed in the paid version?

Edit: Just to be clear, Oracle purchased Sun which owned MySQL AB. IMO an astute businessman (of which there are many at Oracle) will do enough to keep MySQL alive as a toy database. So it's suitable for e.g. Slashdot to use. But if MySQL is too good, then it starts to compete against enterprise databases.

Too bad for Oracle's strategy, the people behind PostgreSQL don't seem to be playing along.</comment></comment>


Show HN: SnapEDA Plugins – Find parts inside your circuit board design software - <AUTHOR> http://www.snapeda.com/plugins <comment><AUTHOR> Dear HN community,

I posted last month about our startup SnapEDA which makes free symbols and footprints available in multiple design formats when we released InstaPart: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12571200](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12571200).

We just built new plugins so that you can search SnapEDA right inside your design tool and thought I'd post again to share it (hope that's ok with everyone). These new plugins are for Altium and Eagle. The plugins allow you to search models without having to leave your design environment.

This is a beta, so would love any feedback you might have. One thing on our roadmap is to add cloud-syncing of the libraries and user authentication right from the plugin. Would love to hear your thoughts on other features to add next!

<comment><USER2> I want to personally thank you! This I feel will quickly become a very useful tool for me when I design projects for Burning Man. The libraries for Eagle can be very very lacking.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I feel like the KiCad support is lacking. As the community EDA of choice, support for it is quite important.

What I would really like to so is a repository of 3D models. Footprints are a dime a dozen and faster to churn out than 3D models. Also, most EDA suites support creating footprints/symbols but few/none support 3D modeling.

Also I've had SnapEDA provide me with footprints of similar parts that in actuality were not similar enough. A fair chunk of time was wasted on that.

<comment><USER4> I have a question:

Why do you want 3D models? What is the use case? Are you doing a lot of really space-constrained boards?

KiCad has spent a lot of effort on making it possible to view 3D models of boards. Upverter has recently spent a whole bunch of time on making this available (time that could be better spent on a _lot_ of other things). And I don't get why. Outside of a small contingent of space-constrained parts, I just don't see what the use of 3D parts is.

<comment><USER5> I've personally spotted many mistakes in the 3d view, mainly spacing ("oh, I thought this would fit but it doesn't look like it would"). It's not my first priority, but it would be nice to have.

<comment><USER3> Me too, the 3D viewer is developmental tool. I also use it for marketing.

It is especially nice with the ray traced 3D view of KiCad.

<comment><USER5> Raytraced view? How!?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> My feedback as an EE with 10 years experience:

I think your InstaPart feature looks cool. Lots of big companies have CAD teams that just make component libraries for designers. It is nice to get a bit of that on the small side of the industry finally.

That being said, limiting it to 5/month is very constraining. Can you accrue InstaParts? I think most designers typically need more than that per project, but not necessarily each month.

<comment><AUTHOR> Sure. The way it works is if a part is already in our library it's free and you can download unlimited models. If not you can get it in 24h with InstaPart, and then that model is included for everyone in the free library.

You are correct that we have heard from customers who subscribe that they want more than 5 (right now they don't accrue because it's an add on to the other features). We are considering making these special requests available via a credit system. Would something like that work? Approximately how many do you use per project and what is the complexity of the designs?

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Sigh. I don't need _yet another_ plugin for my generic parts--that you're going to try to monetize on me eventually if you achieve lock in.

Let me be blunt. I don't need _extensions or features_ to my PCB tools. Certainly not "Yet Another Database Frontend(tm) You Can Rent".

I my tools to fscking _WORK_.

I need a tool that runs, fast, on Windows, Linux, and even OS X.

I need bug fixes for the features that they actually have.

I need a tool that lets me script things in a modern programming language.

I need an autorouter that doesn't suck. This will never happen because our algorithms don't like to work with PCB limitations of small numbers of layers and obstacles that penetrate multiple layers.

 _ALL_ the PCB software tools are buggy piles of garbage because the amount of money in that industry is now fixed. Charitably: everybody is trying to extract rent instead of innovate. Uncharitably: nobody actually in development actually knows how the board designers use their tools anymore.

If you want to go chase a field, go chase Cadence, Mentor and Synopsys up into the real EDA market where _algorithms_ matter. Creating $10000-level tools that can do actual VLSI design to take advantage of the fact that transistors are stupidly cheap in volume would kick off the custom silicon revolution everybody has been promising.

<comment><USER8> Please read the Show HN guidelines: [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html). They say: "Be respectful. Anyone sharing work is making a contribution, however modest."

Your comment is a mixture of dismissiveness and helpful (though perhaps tangential) information. It would be much better if you took out the dismissiveness.

<comment><USER7> Sorry, you are correct. My post was far too dismissive. He accidentally tripped over a hot button of mine and it was not his fault. Mea culpa.

As a power user and as an executive manager, I am extremely frustrated to see yet another company creating a "part database" (we have more than enough of these, thanks, and they don't actually solve a problem that a user actually has) rather than tackling _ANY_ of the actual _technical_ problems in the space.

However, your point is well taken. My apologies.

<comment><USER9> Please don't assume the OP is male or not solving technical challenges. She's a YC founder recently profiled in a technical magazine (PCB Design - see: [http://www.iconnect007.com/index.php/article/100587/](http://www.iconnect007.com/index.php/article/100587/)).

<comment><USER7> > Please don't assume the OP is male or not solving technical challenges. > She's a YC founder recently profiled in a technical magazine (PCB Design - > see: > [http://www.iconnect007.com/index.php/article/100587/](http://www.iconnect007.com/index.php/article/100587/)).

1) Press coverage does not automatically imply either vision or competency. See: Theranos.

2) Do not assume that _I_ do not have the bonafides to critique properly just because I am willing to have my rudeness pointed out. I've probably been fighting with EDA tools longer than she has been _alive_. And I ran a group which had a budget of more than $70 million for EDA tools.

I assure you I have very strong opinions about EDA tools that are _backed up_ by very hard won experience.

And one of the many of those opinions is that _not once_ did any engineer with experience ever say "Gee, we really need somebody else to manage our parts or footprints." _TO A PERSON_ they all said "We'll do it. Anybody else will screw it up."

So, quite certainly, I have enough vision of the field to deem it "not a technical challenge". You can feel free to disagree, but you're going to have to bring some experience or data to convince me.

And, in case you think I'm being unfair, I can assure you that I ripped several layers of upper managers at Altium a new one for buying Octopart instead of _fixing their tool_.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Rediscovering the Blazingly Bright Colors of Ancient Sculptures - <AUTHOR> https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/ancient-sculpture-color-polychromy <comment><USER2> This reminds me a lot of how we've discovered that dinosaurs had feathers.

I wonder how long this imagery will take to come into public consciousness, both painted sculptures and feathered dinosaurs. Popular culture doesn't seem to be catching on, the new Jurassic Park movies still have scaly dinosaurs and I expect that any new Ancient Greek or Roman movies will have white statues. I think it makes people uncomfortable to discover that they've been visualising something wrong their whole life.

<comment><USER3> Well, certainly this has been known for quite awhile and hasn't really caught on as far as I know. I mean, people who care are fully aware, but I'm sure you're right that any new scene depicting ancient Greece will have plenty of white marble. File it under Reality is Unrealistic. [1]

(Offhand I bet part of the issue is that the general culture probably doesn't make much distinction between classical statues and Renaissance or neoclassical statues and carvings, despite the couple millennia of separation. And obviously the Renaissance statues were not painted.)

[1] [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealis...](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic)

<comment><USER4> I wonder whether Renaissance statues were unpainted also due to influence from the "white" Greek statues.

<comment><USER5> Yes, definitely, both during the Renaissance and the Neoclassical eras. Works that would have been considered unfinished in the Classical era were appreciated in later periods for representing pure figures without the need for ostentation. Well, that and the Classical sculpture was pretty darned good.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Last year I had a chance to go to the archaeological museums in both Athens and Istanbul and was surprised to see how many classical statues and fragments still have pigment left on them. Here's one particularly well-preserved example - from a museum in Berlin, but pretty close to the examples I saw in Athens:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychrome#/media/File:Altes_M...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychrome#/media/File:Altes_Museum- Tanagra-lady_with_fan.jpg)

It makes me wonder if part of the myth about Greco-Roman sculptures being pristine and unpainted came not just from the pigment wearing away over the centuries, but from the fact that 18th and 19th century printed texts tended only to feature black and white engravings. In person it's strikingly apparent that many were brightly painted.

<comment><USER2> I think it's more to do with the fact that Renaissance sculptures weren't painted.

So the question is why did they believe that ancient sculptures weren't painted in the 1500's?

<comment><USER6> Most of the paint on ancient sculptures that didn't make it to the 21st century would already have been gone by the 16th century.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> When I visited Egypt a few years ago I was amazed at how colorful some ruins and temples were. To this day you can go to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortuary_Temple_of_Hatshepsut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortuary_Temple_of_Hatshepsut) and see colorful walls and columns and such that are about 3500 years old. It still gives me goosebumps.

</comment><comment><USER8> You need only go to India and see the brightly painted sculpture to understand what Greek sculpture looked like. The same people moved into/invaded Greece, Iran, India, Bactria, et al bringing a common language(-root) and religious(-root). I say (-root) since this process likely took centuries, perhaps several.

<comment><USER9> There was also a reverse influence from Alexander invading India as well. The first sculptures of Buddha were made by Greek artists, for example.

<comment><USER8> That's quite true but I'm talking of a common influence about 1500or more years prior to Alexander.

Interestingly the first time I encountered Kartikeya under the name "Skanda" was in fact on a visit to the Bodh Gaya! I guess Alexander was a contemporary or near contemporary of Ashoka. There was a lot of connection between the Greek empire and the Mauryan empire!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Makes sense that they'd have been painted, but I prefer the clean marble look.

Lincoln all fleshy, sitting there in his temple on the Mall seems incorrect to me.

As would a tonal David.

</comment><comment><USER11> Edinburgh college of art had incredibly fine casts of great works made and subsequently painted by the Victorians. Apparently a confused college body decided to remove the polychrome finish and "restore them to the pristine white' which not only destroyed their heritage, it lost a huge amount of fine detail. -told to me by my mum who worked there in the sixties and seventies and eighties.

</comment><comment><USER12> Maybe fabrics, too.

Last November, I visited the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. There were woven fabrics that showed lovely colors and designs after at least 4 millennia.

Our forebears had lots of coloration options for their art. I doubt they did everything in neutral color. I'm glad we're using our technology to see better the beautiful things they made so long ago.

</comment><comment><USER13> No mention of the kinds of pigments and binders. That would be interesting to know as well.</comment>


Show HN: Dinnertable.chat – fixing the online echo chamber problem - <AUTHOR> https://dinnertable.chat <comment><AUTHOR> Hey folks, I'm the founder of DTC, and I super appreciate your time checking us out. We started from a simple premise: "how do we break up echo chambers online, while allow people to better express their views."

Dinnertable.chat [DTC] is a mobile app and web platform that facilitates real- time discussions and debates on a range of social and political issues. Designed to act as a virtual matchmaker for people with political differences, DTC lets users choose a topic they are interested in or have a position on, then connects them with someone who holds an appropriately contrasting viewpoint. Matched users then each control a fun virtual character who represents their respective words and emotions on-screen during the conversation. The vision of Dinnertable.chat is to provide an accessible tool that helps engage people in good-faith dialogue for the purpose of finding common ground through live conversation.

Thanks for reading this Tuesday morning!

EDIT: Here's the direct link to the promo video that's a quicker overview: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8cW- ezofRM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8cW-ezofRM)

</comment><comment><USER2> Oh this is interesting, but how do you plan to solve for toxic behavior on the platform?

I liked the animated characters on the homepage promo video and especially the TOX-vs-BNN news network jab in the intro.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks, we spent a lot of time working on the video! We plan to mitigate the toxic behavior through a behavior rating system (similar to Overwatch). At the end of the session, users rate the other person in the discussion upon both positive and negative qualities (Respectful, Knowledgeable, Charismatic... Absent, Aggressive, Crude, Interruptive).

Over time, we use these ratings to determine who to match, or just who to ban if they are acting in bad faith conversations.</comment></comment>


We're not as selfish as we think we are - <AUTHOR> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/14/selfish-proof-ego-humans-inherently-good <comment><USER2> > A study by the Common Cause Foundation, due to be published next month, > reveals two transformative findings. The first is that a large majority of > the 1,000 people they surveyed – 74% – identifies more strongly with > unselfish values than with selfish values. This means that they are more > interested in helpfulness, honesty, forgiveness and justice than in money, > fame, status and power. The second is that a similar majority – 78% – > believes others to be more selfish than they really are. In other words, we > have made a terrible mistake about other people's minds.

One explanation: other people are not as selfish as we think they are.

Another explanation: we are more selfish than we say we are.

<comment><USER3> Or: We are more selfish than we believe or say.

Few people want to believe that they are selfish.

Sadly, the paper hasn't been published and 'identifies more strongly with' is rather vague in definition.

<comment><USER4> Wealth brings power, power brings entitlement.

Data: Stanford prison and the rigged Monopoly / pretzels experiments.

Qualitatively:

\- Dbag taking up the entire level ramp in the parking garage with his Tesla so no one else can pass in the opposite direction.

\- Folks allergic to using turn signals, wasting everyone else's time and jeopardizing safety.

\- Basically empty winter holiday collection containers in tech areas. (Stingy fuckers.)

\- Could bitch on and on, but it's banally common in built-up areas.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This commentary essay is at least somewhat inconsistent with news reports like one I just saw on the New page here on Hacker News after reading the commentary kindly submitted here. The news report, "Goldman, JPMorgan Said to Fire 30 Analysts for Cheating on Tests"[1] suggests that some highly educated people who have already succeeded in being hired at highly selective financial firms think they cannot be altruistic while advancing their careers.

As other astute comments here have already observed, revealed preference (what people actually do) is a much better signal of human intentions than self- reported preference. People are happy to endorse altruistic values while not necessarily living by them.

[1] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-16/goldman- sa...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-16/goldman-sachs-said- to-dismiss-20-analysts-for-cheating-on-tests)

</comment><comment><USER6> The problem with studies like this is, ironically, the most self-interested response you can give when somebody asks you the kinds of questions these studies ask, is to misrepresent yourself as being more altruistic than you really are, and misrepresent others as being far less altruistic by comparison.

Put people to decisions that actually have a meaningful impact on their lives, and the lives of others, and you'll see how selfish people really are. Conveniently, you don't even need to conduct a study for this, just observe humanity.

People are definitely selfish. The more interesting question is: is that a bad thing?

</comment><comment><USER7> the author of this article needs to live in san francisco or los angeles for a week and go back to the drawing board</comment>


Ask HN: How can i track API error rate - <AUTHOR> I have seen many places where SaaS companies displayed their service uptime and stats.
How can i do something similar for my own APIs?
I am working on Drupal 8.
Is there any services to do the same or how its even done ?
eg: https://status.digitalocean.com <comment><USER2> Maybe try [https://www.statuspage.io/](https://www.statuspage.io/) ?</comment>


Mayan documentary to show evidence of alien contact in ancient Mexico - <AUTHOR> http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2011/sep/29/mayan-documentary-alien-mexico?newsfeed=true

<comment><USER2> Go to South America and "enter the twilight zone".</comment>


Ask HN: I'm leaving my six figure corporate career job - <AUTHOR>

I'm quitting my job because I'm bored of it and don't want to spend 50 hours per week doing it. I have some savings to do me until I need to work again. I would like to work on some side projects, perhaps something that could generate revenue. This is a pretty big step for me, is there anyone who has done the same? Is there anything that you would recommend? <comment><USER2> I'm excited for you...I did the same about 12 years ago and the 2 1/2 years I ended up taking off remain some of the best of my life.

Thought I'd share a simple budgeting tool I used to help alleviate/delay the inevitable monetary stress. I first decided how much of my savings I was willing to spend on the sabbatical. I then divided that amount into three buckets. The first was small and was my fun bucket (I think mine was b/w $3-$5k). I worked my ass off and it was time to have a little fun. The second bucket is the oh-shit-its-time-to-get-a-real-job-again bucket. I assumed it would take me at most 3 months to find the right job, so this bucket equated to 3 months living expenses. That leaves the remainder for your "core" second bucket. When I was spending from this bucket I never once thought about what I'd do AFTER the sabbatical because I knew I had that covered financially. I simply focused on the sabbatical itself and had an amazing experience.

Good luck and have fun!

</comment><comment><USER3> Find the next gig quick; money runs out surprisingly fast w/o some supply side.

But, if you have some time to explore then don't jump on the next nice looking boat. Date the next four or five interesting projects lightly until you're sure one is the right fit.

</comment><comment><USER4> read something from Shane ... [http://www.sideprojectprofit.com/side- projects/](http://www.sideprojectprofit.com/side-projects/) \- but the next job/project culd be boring, too!

</comment><comment><USER5> What are you looking to do? Program new software? Or will you consider partnering and/or investing in something that's already working and has the potential of making a lot of money?

If it's the latter, feel free to contact me via email in my profile.</comment>


Ask HN: Client won't do 1099, should I be worried? - <AUTHOR>

Client wants to go through w-2 instead of 1099.  Bit of an old school software company instead of the usual startup.  They flat out refuse to do 1099 through my LLC.  Anything I should be worried about? <comment><USER2> Is it possible they are going to be setting your hours or requiring a certain schedule? They might have had a run in with the IRS with a past contractor who didn't pay appropriate taxes. If they pay you 1099 and you don't properly pay your taxes, the IRS can come after them and they are liable if you meet some of the criteria of an employee (time requirements, equipment provided, etc.).

But yeah, talk to your accountant.

</comment><comment><USER3> Talk to an accountant, preferably your accountant.</comment>


Chattanooga Announces Nation's Only 150 Mbps Residential Internet Offer - <AUTHOR> http://www.epb.net/news/news-archive/chattanooga-announces-nations-only-150-mbps-residential-internet-offer/

<comment><USER2> CondoInternet.net offers 200Mbps/200Mbps (up/down) at certain condos in the downtown Seattle area. They claim they have a tier that goes up to 500Mbps, but I've never seen it available anywhere.

They have nowhere near the market penetration of this company though.

<comment><USER3> we offer a minimum 200 mbit/sec plan in all buildings that are ethernet (ie not VDSL), most people get around 500-700 mbit/sec on our 200 mbit plan. If you are in a large building in seattle keep an eye out for us, we are growing quickly. All buildings are fed with several gigabit/sec to ensure performance and our minimum offering is 100/100.

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Anyone else get faster in there area? Want to make sure this isn't some bs claim.</comment>


Reddit's revenue per user is much lower than that of other social networks - <AUTHOR> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/reddit-users-are-the-least-valuable-of-any-social-network.html <comment><USER2> That's a good thing folks.

Talking about the user being the product, I'd try to choose a platform where my value is minimal since I think it's fair to assume that there's less data collection and profiling going on.

<comment><USER3> One _good_ thing I commend reddit for is their business model centered around the user-funded 'gold system' (now called reddit premium [0]).

Kind of like a win-win: You see a great post or a comment by a random user, you buy gold (or awards/coins as it's now called), reddit gets the money, post or comment's author gets the recognition in that thread via a special badge (aside from a host of other experience-enhancing benefits) -- everyone's happy.

I'm aware of the fact that they run ads, but one can choose to evade all of it by going premium -- pretty neat, imo; Imagine Facebook or Twitter giving users this choice!

[0] [https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-gold-silver-platinum- premium...](https://www.newsweek.com/reddit-gold-silver-platinum-premium-how- get-awards-1172321)

<comment><USER4> I'd love to see something similar for Twitter. Perhaps with better moderation support as one of the perks.

"Gold" systems that actually pay the content creator, patreon-style, are an interesting idea too. But they have considerable potential downsides.

<comment><USER5> Content is constantly being reposted on Reddit with zero attribution. You're better off trying to create a new community with these types of pay-the- creator systems built into it, than shoehorning it into Reddit where the incentive systems would be completely warped due to the Wild West nature of 'content ownership'.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> My first inclination is to think this is a good thing. That it's a sign of a better customer experience. It's the cynic in me that worries this will be seen by some as an opportunity to increase RPU and screw up the site. (And the new UI supports that cynical take, at least somewhat.)

I 'grew up' in the era of USENET, which had a couple benefits over the forums and then social media sites that sprang up to replace it. It wasn't perfect, but it did offer more individual control over user experience and less dependency on a single corporate entity. It would be nice to find a way to get back to some of that.

<comment><USER7> The new layout is annoyingly modern but I do like the ability to read an article and go back to the list without reloading the page.

Now if res can just be updated for the new site to further fix all the little niceties. The fast use switching inevitably drives me back to old mode soon enough.

In the mean time create a bunch of accounts to help their valuation right? I've got a dozen accounts and forgotten the password to at least as many.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Obviously. They practically promote throwaway accounts and don't require any real personally identifiable information through their registration process. Their users aren't nearly as attached to their account as, say, an Instagram user or Facebook user with a vested interest in keeping their account closely tied to their identity.

On the contrary, Reddit users typically don't want their Reddit activities tied to their identity at all. As such, Reddit accounts probably don't get used nearly as frequently thus aren't as lucrative from a data harvesting standpoint.

Although there's a special place in hell for a website with 17 cookies.

</comment><comment><USER9> That makes me like Reddit more. I wish more social media would allow me to pay to access a version of the service that wasn't centred around advertising. Even with adverts Reddit doesn't feel like it's manipulating everything you see just to sell access to your eyeballs.

Reddit has an ad-free premium subscription, although at $5.99 a month it's obviously a lot more than the $0.30 they reckon each user is actually worth.

<comment><USER10> Selling ad-free premium subscription is not a good idea if you rely on ads. As those willing to pay, is exactly those an advertiser want to target.

<comment><USER11> >As those willing to pay, is exactly those an advertiser want to target.

How does this follow? A user is not just on a scale from "I don't pay for anything" to "I pay for everything." People pay to solve what they perceive as problems. For some people, that problem is online advertising (but they don't use adblock because for instance they think it's unfair to the platforms they use). For others, it might be that they're looking to buy their kid a new toy. People could easily be in both groups, but they're unrelated so let's keep them separate for this example.

An advertiser representing Toys-R-Us for instance would love to advertise to that second group. The first group? Not necessarily.

<comment><USER9> ^ What indigochill said.

In addition, for Reddit it seems a paying subscriber is worth 20 non-paying subscribers and is a more secure form of income. So I imagine they're exactly the type of user they want. Why would the subscription model exist if it hurt advertising revenue?

<comment><USER12> My guess although I don't agree with it is that some marketers think "people willing to pay to not deal with ads" are a more valuable demographic to advertise to. Which is cosmically missing the point really.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Reddit has some valuable users, but its poorly monetized. For example, I dont trust political support reddits... after 2016 they all feel gamed. I think a paid sub, a sub that has a monthly subscription which added an extra level of scrutiny to the users and posts might be interesting.

Alternatively, a revenue sharing model where I pay for a subscription to a sub, and I can read normally paygated links.

<comment><USER14> I participate in a forum with paid subscriptions and heavy moderation. The politics threads still feel gamed occasionally.

<comment><USER15> I would not think that having to spend a little money is an actual deterrent for those who want to game public opinion. So I wouldn't be surprised if it still happened.

<comment><USER16> The only way it wouldn't is if the money paid for an editorial staff and then you'd be approaching a traditional media setup.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> It makes sense when you consider how many "throw away" accounts are out there. You couldn't get away with creating those kind of accounts on other platforms.

<comment><USER18> Users won't ask the stuff they do without throwaways. They're needed for some level of anonymity, within reason.

<comment><USER5> I agree with this. But one of the irritating things about Reddit is just how much straight up lying happens simply because the poster wants a high- attention thread. r/relationships and r/sex is full of these 'that happened' absurd scenarios that well-meaning posters do still try to help with.

<comment><USER19> They're entertainment. You read with the expectation that they're mostly false, but the possibility that any one of the absurd situations is happening for real.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Normal display advertising will not work on Reddit, but native ads will. Take content that already gets tons of comments (pictures of pets looking cute), add in one paid promotion item, like a dog jacket. Then get someone to innocently ask where they can buy the jacket, and reply in a link.

The meme of Reddit users is that they consider themselves to be harbingers of rational thought and logic, but they are easily influenced consumers just the same. As Amazon starts looking more like AliExpress, Reddit will become a place where Twitch/E-gaming/Cosplay personalities separate 'followers' from their money.

<comment><USER20> You're a genius. All reddit has to do is violate the FTC Act on a massive scale.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Are there any sources on the split of per-user revenue between ads, reddit premium and reddit gold?

I would've normally expected ads to be the bulk of it, but now that we have Fortnite with its strictly vanity merch... you just never know.

</comment><comment><USER22> My view is that apps will evolve to be more user hostile, and there is no solution in the current internet landscape. Take the most snoopy internet corp, FaceBook - well above half their revenue goes to paying for infrastructure and salaries. Even if they choose not to build the technology (and hardware) that exists merely for user monitoring, a product working at that scale cannot exist without prying on user data and selling their privacy. Same situation with Google, and maybe Reddit eventually.

For a number of apps, a possible alternative is the P2P model - in which infrastructure costs are shared by participants and development is done by enthusiasts (either for free or with lifestyle-business sized incomes).

</comment><comment><USER23> I'm not surprised to hear this.

I run a game server hosting company (primarily for Ark: Survival Evolved) and I buy lots of ads. My best sources for ads are Google and Bing, both of which have excellent conversion rates for relevant search phrases-- in other words, people who click the ads are very likely to ending up signing up for a paid plan with my company.

The reddit ads are very different. I bought ads on relevant subreddits and plenty of people clicked them, but no one ever signed up. After wasting thousands of dollars on this, I stopped advertising on reddit.

</comment><comment><USER24> Do people who use reddit consider themselves part of a social network?

<comment><USER25> Nope, it's just centralized newsgroups IMHO.

<comment><USER6> Exactly. (But just the alt hierarchy... I don't think Reddit has anything like the old voting process used to create groups in other hierarchies.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> The revenue from Twitter and Snapchat is actually more fascinating.

I have no idea how Snapchat is making money. I know they have ads, I just don't know where, I've never seen one.

<comment><USER27> The right tab is full of ads, no?

<comment><USER26> What tabs? You have the friends list and the "send a snap" screens, those are the only two I see... and sometime my profile.

<comment><USER27> First tap down here: [https://i.imgur.com/6SUbJeK.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/6SUbJeK.jpg)

Scroll down and you will see lots of ads.

<comment><USER26> Interesting, I'm surprised that they're able to make money on that. Also Snapchat apparently thinks I'm Norwegian.

<comment><USER27> All I get is gossip, clickbait and political propaganda. Very unethical, especially for an app where the dominant demographic is early teens. :/

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I thought advertising on Reddit must be really cheap then, compared to Facebook, Google et.al. But it seems I can not advertise on Reddit if I have an ad blocker ... !?

<comment><USER28> I'm all for adblockers, but why would you be allowed to advertise if you use one? Do you have some reasoning for why other people should potentially see your ad while you don't see those of others? Does your adblocker whitelist some things? Genuinely curious.

<comment><USER10> You wont do much business if you lock out all the hypocrites.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> You don't need an email address to sign up, let alone anything else.

Personally identifiable information are more valuable than those that are not. That's not a surprise.

</comment><comment><USER30> Not shocked honestly.

A lot of Reddit users are against the idea of being advertised to or having their data sold. In addition to this semi-anonymous and throwaway accounts are common which must lower the worth of any data collected.

I personally have 3 different accounts, One for work, one for politics and a final one for games. I'm more then happy to rotate (throw away and recreate) any of these accounts at any time.

<comment> shaki-dora Populations are just different among the networks. Facebook is probably closest to "all people". Twitter skews towards urban professionals. Instagram has the artsy/fashion-conscious crowd. Pinterest attracts more traditional women.

Reddit, for its part, attracts the young, male underclass. Not exclusively, of course. I have an account myself, so don't feel insulted.

That demographic just isn't as valuable, unless you're selling games or conspiracies. They have neither money nor power.

<comment><USER31> I would say that was true until 2-3 years ago, my sense is reddit has broadened out a lot recently.

<comment><USER6> I tend to agree with you. I joined Reddit back before the time they allowed sub-reddits to be created at well. My view of the site was more or less entirely /r/programming, which had a post celebrating 65,536 users. This was also around the time they switched from using Lisp to Python: [https://redditblog.com/2005/12/05/on- lisp/](https://redditblog.com/2005/12/05/on-lisp/)

Then at some point, the site opened up sub-reddit creation and a vast new world popped up around 'me' that I was completely oblivious to. (And /r/programming is now at 1,700,000 users...) The site's changed a lot over the years, and not necessarily in ways that are immediately obvious. (But that lisp post is almost 15 years old, so maybe that shouldn't be a surprise.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> call us poorly monetizable instead please

</comment><comment><USER33> I wish the title included the word 'commercial'.

I'm not a Redditer myself, but _some_ of the things to come out of various eclectic reddit communities have been amazingly valuable

<comment> shaki-dora The commercial value would seem to correlate rather well with other values. Sure, there are some subreddits that are well-moderated, and where some genuinely creative stuff happens. But when weighted by the number of users and comments, most of reddit is just the lowest common denominator of entertainment.

In contrast, Twitter can at least claim that it is the place where news increasingly happens. And whatever the reason, I find a politician's twitter stream far better than any ama (which really are rather terrible, for the most part).

Similarly, many professional communities seem to congregate on Twitter far more than on reddit.

Facebook obviously owns the real-world-relationship angle, which puts them above the others.</comment></comment>


MH370 oxygen deprivation theory - <AUTHOR> http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/post/79214607814/my-recommendation-to-the-ntsb

<comment><USER2> well if ti was slow why wouldnt they try to radio. Obviously i don't know anything about airplanes, but one would assume their limits for warning about decompression events will be long before the average crew member will pass out</comment>


Spirograph in HTML 5 - <AUTHOR> http://codepen.io/cwolves/pen/gykbc <comment><USER2> I find Hal Abelson's book Turtle Geometry [1] fascinating. It describes a dialect of Logo (the graphical routines could probably be implemented relatively easily in Python/Tkinter or Tcl/Tk or something like Processing).

Once the basics are described, then it uses them to go on to explore things like non-euclidian geometry (and maybe topology?).

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Turtle-Geometry-Mathematics- Artificial...](http://www.amazon.com/Turtle-Geometry-Mathematics-Artificial- Intelligence/dp/0262510375)

</comment><comment><USER3> I love this.

      Since I'm on an old book kick today, here's a link to an old book with similar, simpler, nice graphics.

([http://www.amazon.com/Mathographics-Robert- Dixon/dp/04862663...](http://www.amazon.com/Mathographics-Robert- Dixon/dp/0486266397/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1365296957&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=mathagraphics))

</comment><comment><USER4> fwiw, <http://www.acooke.org/spirograph.html> \- svg + js, cerca 2005.

anyone have a java applet that still runs? :o)

[edit: the source <http://www.acooke.org/spiro.svg>]

</comment><comment><USER5> Here's a similar algorithm that creates patterns slightly resembling radiolarians:

<http://alisey.deviantart.com/art/Orbits-316110768>

<http://explord.com/experiments/orbits/>

</comment><comment><USER6> Great to see this. It reminds me of the original toy.

If I had the time/inclination, a kickstarter based on the original toy that rendered on paper and screen might be an interesting plaything.

Another future angle could clearly involve 3d-printing of the disks.

Good stuff.

<comment><USER7> You might also want to check out <http://GeoKone.NET>, which is kinda similar, but not trying to imitate the original spirograph. But I hear many people have compared the two.

GeoKone is much more complex though and allows much more flexible geometry to be created.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Nice! Now to hook that up to some lasers :-)

</comment><comment><USER9> Any concerns with epilepsy, running at the higher speeds? Seemed like the rendered spirograph got into the relevant frequency range.

</comment><comment><USER10> Is that code formatting automatic? if yes, how did you do? (comma, variable number of spaces, key, value)

         {
          orientation : 'vertical'
          ,   animate : true
          ,     value : 100 * radii[ ix + 1 ]
          ,     slide : onChange
          ,    change : onChange
          ,      step : .01
        }

</comment><comment><USER11> I'm always amazed at how much can be accomplished with so little code; this is awesome!

</comment><comment><USER12> How do I control the speed? Turning the "Speeds" control up or down only seem to make it go really fast.

<comment><USER13> It's slow in the middle, cause I think you are just changing the direction, by maxing it out.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> dear hn, html5 != chrome

<comment><USER15> Works great in Firefox 19.0.2, I think that's pretty old.

<comment><USER16> Works great in FF 3.6.24, too. Yes, I dusted off an ancient testing virtual machine just to see if it would work.</comment></comment></comment>


2,919 Movie Pirates Walk Free as BitTorrent Trolling Scheme Falls Apart - <AUTHOR> http://torrentfreak.com/2919-movie-pirates-walk-free-as-bittorrent-trolling-scheme-falls-apart-130802/

<comment><USER2> Anyone have links to copyright lawyers discussing this? The few I follow online haven't picked up on it. I can't imagine that selling your financial interest in some legal proceeding generally voids your actionable claim and that this must be something special to do with copyright.

</comment><comment><USER3> This judge has judged the case on it's real merits, that it's all about extorsion, maybe it's allowed in the US to extort people but in most European coutries it's a nono.</comment>


JPL Unveils a Toaster-Sized Tech That May Create Oxygen on Red Planet - <AUTHOR> https://dot.la/moxie-mars-2020-rover-2645069343.html <comment><USER2> How it works:

"As a technology, the 17-kilogram-sized MOXIE creates oxygen from carbon dioxide by pumping the gas from the Martian atmosphere through its electrolysis system to break up molecules ultimately into breathable oxygen. The engineering was particularly tricky because the electrolysis system works at 800 degrees Celsius or a blistering 1,472 degrees Fahrenheit. Aluminum, which is a material that's often used in engineering, however, melts at 660 degrees. So they ended up using chromium, which melts at more than double that temperature"</comment>


Ask HN: How is the President protected from drones? - <AUTHOR>

Bodyguards who are good at shouting clay pigeons? <comment><USER2> There are drone jammers that block radio frequencies and GPS signals in a area making the used drone inoperable. ([https://crab.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/how- to-down-a-drone/](https://crab.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/how-to-down-a-drone/))

These devices are used at film sets and important buildings which makes it probable that they are a measure to protect the president.

</comment><comment><USER3> There must be ways this is already covered. I'd be surprised if the president does not already have some level of protection from a mortar being fired where he is due to speak. There must be some kind of mobile in-air intercept method for smaller objects.

Perhaps mini missiles or those gattling guns they have on navy ships. The SS must be able to afford a few vans with these mounted around a perimeter. I just googled mortar defence and they are working on lasers that can stop these in air too.

Source: I know nothing.

</comment><comment><USER4> My take - it's a growing pain for secret service. My approach - take it out at source/planning/chatter stage. When drone is up in the air at alternative controlled frequency or purely auto controlled with or without GPS - it's a bit too late.

It is an issue.</comment>