Ask HN: Music while coding - <AUTHOR> I often find it challenging to get into the zone without background music (although don't notice if it fades out later)
I'm always looking to find new music and interested to know what fellow hackers are listening to? <comment><USER2> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=716219> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=167076> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=132026> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=61831> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=769769> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=668138> <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1209378>

<comment><USER3> It's still interesting to read comments, find new artist and even get the opinion of new HN-ers.

Also, it's kind of contradictory since while this question is on the front page, lots of people upvote this tired-of-this-question-because-it-has-been- asked-already-10-times comment.

<comment><USER2> I just assumed that if people are interested in reading this thread they'll also be interested in the large amount of previous posts asking the exact same thing.

Or maybe people just like telling others what music they like and aren't particularly interested in reading the same, I don't no.

<comment><USER4> *know.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm a big fan of ambient electronic music; it fades into the backgrounds well while still being interesting.

To that end, the "Neotokyo" soundtrack by Ed Harrison <http://www.neotokyohq.com/music.html> is amazing. Whenever I put that on (all 2 hours of it) I get things done.

<comment><USER6> Another excellent game soundtrack is the Machinarium OST

[http://machinarium.net/blog/2009/09/29/machinarium- soundtrac...](http://machinarium.net/blog/2009/09/29/machinarium-soundtrack- preview/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> It depends on the language. Things like assembler demand Nine Inch Nails, Atari Teenage Riot, and other really fast things. This is possibly due to the fact that I have the attention span of a whippet, and I need to be kept up to speed. C++ lends itself to distorted acid noise in the manner of mu-Ziq, LFO, Squarepusher and Aphex Twin. Possibly because this music is good at dispelling C++ induced rage. Java is pleasant to write with a bit of big band like Nina Simone or Fred Astaire (this is probably more to do with the fact that I was into that sort of stuff when I first learned Java than because there might be any relation between Java and big band). Other languages on request :)

On a similar note, does anyone else have a favourite drink for late-night hacking? Again, Java is quite red-winey. Assembler is vodka and mixer. Electronics work demands a good ale.

Hello HN. _delurk_

<comment><USER8> What would you listen to while writing lisp?

<comment><USER9> any porno backing will work

.. plaaaayaaaaa

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Usually silence, but when I do listen to music and try to work it's one of the following:

1\. Final Fantasy, Video Game soundtrack, OCRemix, or similar (current favorites: Kindgom Hearts, Capcom Music Generation Family Computer Soundtracks, both Jet Set Radio soundtracks)

2\. Pandora, my Quick Mix, which is basically a radio station for every band I enjoy old and new (examples: Tom Petty, Spoon, Modest Mouse, The Killers, The Beatles, Tokyo Police Club, TV on the Radio, and many more). I'm tempting to purchase the annual subscription.

I found this recent discussion on Reddit as a good resource for music suggestions as well (many mentioned that I had forgotten about):

[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/co6iz/anyone_else...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/co6iz/anyone_else_think_pearl_jam_and_smashing_pumpkins/)

<comment><USER11> Or if you want to step up the pace there's always the Black Mages: hard rock renditions of FF battle tunes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Go to pandora.com

Make a station, use "Abakus" as the seed.

Upvote/downvote the next few dozen songs. (If a song has any words/lyrics in it at all, it gets an immediate downvote no matter if I like it).

There you go.

I've found that Abakus is just the right mix of continuously pumping music that keeps my brain flowing, without being too intense (like a lot of trance or goa can get). It ends up flowing into the background pretty smoothly and keeps me going. Before I know it, hours have passed. As a seed in Pandora I've found tons of other artists and music that flows in the same way.

</comment><comment><USER13> * Bach, Mozart, Beethoven (get a complete works so it doesn't bore you after a while. There are many gems which are not known by the general public, like the famous BWV 565, etc.)

* Chiptunes (I recommend maktone and dubmood)

* Daft Punk, Ratatat

* Anything I know by heart -- I won't be distracted by the lyrics. This also works if you don't understand the lyrics

<comment><USER14> Wow that's exactly what I listen to. It's a good combination isn't it, electronica and classical?

<comment><USER13> Indeed. Can you list yours that I haven't listed already? One can never have enough.

Edit: also, yeah. I thought my combo was pretty rare.

<comment><USER15> I mix heavy metal and classical. Which usually raises eyebrows.

<comment><USER16> Same here (sometimes). Or even some mixed genre bands. You know Apocalyptica? There are also some similar bands (don't remember names right now, check out via Lastfm or so).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Generally, I'll pick an artist and listen to their entire discography. The main perks of this are that you don't have to fuss with it once you find what you're in the mood for, you'll generally get at least a good 2 hours of play out of it, and you'll _usually_ avoid musical whiplash, if the album is put together well.

According to last.fm (username is the same as here, for those who want to befriend me), my big artists these days are: The Decemberists, Iron & Wine, Sufjan Stevens, Rufus Wainwright, Machinae Supremacy, and Andrew Bird.

I also strongly recommend the 80-minute Demovibes mixes, if you dig demotunes: <http://www.demovibes.org/dv_info.htm>

<comment><USER18> There's a very small and (for now?) inactive HN group on last.fm:

<http://www.last.fm/group/Hacker+News+(Ycombinator)>

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Try some post-rock:

\- Tortoise

\- Godspeed You! Black Emperor

\- Thee Silver Mt. Zion

\- This Will Destroy You

\- Do Make Say Think

\- Explosions in the Sky

.. To name a few

Very melodic, quiet, soothing, but also explosive at times.

<comment><USER20> I'll second this.

I will also add the following (much smaller) artists to the list:

\- Balmorhea

\- Tunturia

I've been listening to both of them a lot lately - more so than I have the heavy-weights (as listed above)

<comment><USER21> Thanks for those recs; I hadn't heard of either of them.

You should give The American Dollar a listen; they're a really great postrock band from Queens. And Mercury Program, too, but they're in the heavyweights category, more or less.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I use Digitally Imported: <http://di.fm/>

I hop around different radios, but probably too much EuroDance for most people's tastes, but it gets me into the zone

</comment><comment><USER23> Lots and lots of post-rock and indie rock.

      Explosions in the Sky
      Do Make Say Think
      Pelican
      Godspeed You Black Emperor
      Saxon Shore
      Mogwai
      Broken Social Scene
      Radiohead

<http://www.last.fm/user/jonursenbach>

</comment><comment><USER24> Mostly music that doesn't have (much) lyrics. Specifically, some Infected Mushroom, Skazi, general psytrance radios on the web. Also some Moby, Fatboy Slim... But the best is definitely psytrance. Good psy music makes conducts your thoughts. You alsa have to know what to chose.

<comment><USER25> Gosh yes. Infected Mushroom - increasing my productivity since 2003. Their music is interesting enough that I still haven't tired of it yet.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Bach is almost exclusively my favorite classical composer. If you want some of his music, check out classiccat.net. It makes great programming music, but some of it is worth listening to when you're not distracted. (-:

I also enjoy Aphex Twin (all of the similar bands, like Boards of Canada and Autechre, not as much). I actually wrote one my of first web applications listening to "Selected Ambient Works 85-92". Ratatat is good. Finally, for some reason, I enjoy listening to the Conet Project ( <http://www.archive.org/details/ird059> ) while coding.

In general though, I prefer to be in a spot where I don't have to use music to compensate for obnoxious background noise.

<comment><USER27> Definitely Ratatat, especially the leaked album which is more repetitive and less in your face than songs like wildcat.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I choose the music style according to what I feel like in a given day, but here are some favorites:

Dark Ambient: Lustmord, Gustaf Hildebrand, Robert Rich

"IDM": Aphex Twin(anything choosen from what I have) and Autechre

Metal: Burzum(filosofem), Xasthur, and mostly atmospheric BM

Industrial: Suicide Commando, VNV Nation, SPK

(Fin)NRG: Alek Szahala and Nomic

Classical: Bach, Handel, Liszt and Chopin

Demoscene music: Bitfellas radio

I will generally create a mix of from the above styles in a playlist and listen to it, when it begins to bother me (after some hours) I'll just change music style.

Also sometimes I just get some game CD and listen to the tracks, usually I choose Total Annihilation.

<comment><USER29> <http://www.last.fm/user/phoenixsol>

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I enjoy trance a lot, mainly Pendulum at the moment. Their latest album is amazing. The Prodigy is up there too.

The Killers / Linkin Park / Muse in a different mood.

Mighty Mighty Bosstones / Boo! for a third mood

I've got a 100 Greatest Guitar Solo's album which also serves me well.

<comment><USER30> I wouldn't consider Pendulum as trance, though. They started as Drum and Bass, but seem to have gone a bit further away from the genre, into something more mainstream (which has worked out very well for them, their newest album is indeed amazing).

As for trance, I'd recommend listening to something from a few years ago. A friend of mine (registered here actually), advised me to listen to Tiesto's In Concert 2003. On his words, it's one of those sets that once you start listening, you just can't stop.

PS: Also, Tiesto's In Search Of Sunrise 6 has a beginning that I just love: the sound of sea slowly transitioning to trance. You can listen to it on youtube, on a video with the first two tracks from ISOS6.

<comment><USER31> Tiesto's stuff is good, Deadmau5 is also good if you want something a little more upbeat.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Hardstyle: <http://listen.di.fm/public3/hardstyle.pls>

Eurodance: <http://listen.di.fm/public3/eurodance.pls>

Eurobeat: <http://go2id.net:8000/listen.pls>

JPop: <http://kawaii-radio.net/listen.m3u>

<comment><USER33> di.fm has jpop now too <http://www.sky.fm/jpop/>

I usually just listen to chillout or minimal

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> I am the same, and the effect of music on the productivity of workers has been known for a long time. However, music which is primarily focused on lyrics or just listening to speech (eg. audio books) can be quite disruptive, and in most cases I find that this reduces my productivity. I think this is because when I'm writing software I'm probably also using the same language areas of the brain which are triggered when listening to speech.

Also, it's well established that speech and singing are handled by different brain areas, so do not necessarily conflict.

</comment><comment><USER35> <http://listen.grooveshark.com/>

</comment><comment><USER36> I've found that nothing helps me into the zone faster than white(or pink or brown)-noise type audio: waves at the seashore, rain falling in a forest-- that type of sound. It's intriguing to me how a little randomness can gel my mind.

I certainly recommend trying it before going with the Provigil (<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524757>)

<comment><USER37> White noise or water in the background can work for me, but I've never been able to do anything complicated/thought-intensive with music playing -- it just saps some of my attention more than it seems to for many people.

Possibly related: Jonah Lehrer responded to the Provigil article; below is a comment posted by Joe Shelby on Lehrer's response post ([http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/05/the_hidden_cost_of_sm...](http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2008/05/the_hidden_cost_of_smart_drugs.php)):

\---

Not "drug" related, but a similar study I once read about (I think it was cited in Tom DeMarco and Timothy Lister's Peopleware) was about geeks and their listening to music while working. They were given a simple programming task, one easily done in "300 lines" using what we call brute force programming (follow the specified requirements to the letter).

The test was originally designed to see if listening to music while working affected accuracy, with the idea that musical distractions might lead to more bugs in code.

The programmers were allowed to work exactly as they would have worked in real life (this was back before easy internet connections made "cheating" more possible)), so some had headphones full of their favorite music, others worked in silence.

What they found was that both groups (those with music, those without) completed the task with equal accuracy - music didn't affect that precision.

However, they also discovered that some programmers found a secret in the proposed algorithm they were implementing. With a little cleverness, you could implement the algorithm in only 50 lines instead of the full 300, and be done in half the time. Of those that discovered the shorter implementation, most were from the programming in silence group.

</comment></comment><comment><USER38> When I really need to concentrate, I go for my "Pretentious Shite Radio" station on Pandora, which I seeded with John Cage and Steve Reich.

</comment><comment><USER39> that´s funny. for me it´s just the other way round: if there´s music while i´m coding i can´t concentrate very well and always listen to the music instead of coding. :) but it´s possible that this is because i´m a musician too. i always wonder why i can´t blend it out while coding. (i can blend it out while driving a car e.g.) has anybody else similar experiences?

<comment><USER40> Yes. If music is on, I want to listen to the music. It's distracting if I'm trying to think about something else.

An interesting exception is in cafés, where I'm fine to hack away as long as the music isn't too loud.

One other point about music while programming is that it leads programmers to put headphones on, which I sometimes find detracts from collaboration.

<comment><USER41> I find that collaboration sometimes detracts from flow. I'm the type of programmer who will put headphones on without even listening to music if I need to get something done.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> I'm usually get a new album or discover a new band, play them a whole heap then slowly burn out on them and move on. Have a heap of music but usually a couple of albums/ artists are being played a lot.

At the moment listening to the new soilwork album a fair bit, something I've been mixing it up with recently is the music from X-Ray Dog, all epic orchestra style music from films.

</comment><comment><USER43> same with me, everything with lyrics distracts me.

I listen to soma.fm "drone zone", mellow film scores such as revolutionary road, american beauty, monster. Or tycho "past is prologue" is also played a lot...

a discussion on stackoverflow: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14987/audio-while- program...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/14987/audio-while-programming)

<comment><USER44> Some time ago I got out of the habit of collecting music. These days I listen to one of three or four internet radio stations, depending on mood. (I have a shellscript `listen` which is basically mplayer and a case statement.)

My current favorites: loads of ETN.fm and evolved.fm, a good deal of bassdrive.com, with a bit of UnitedBreaks.fm for variety.

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> I'm often preferring silence these days, but when I do feel like tunes, I like stuff that's doesn't tear my attention away from what I'm doing.

The Aphex Twin:

      Analogue Bubble Bath
      Analogue Bubble Bath 2
      Analogue Bubble Bath 3
      Analogue Bubble Bath 3.1
      Analogue Bubble Bath 4
      Analogue Bubble Bath 5
      Selected Ambient Works

Also, Trace Nico and Speedy J.

<comment><USER46> Try some Boards of Canada

<comment><USER31> For something old school, FSOL Lifeforms

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> There are a handful of 'nostalgic' / rocky DJ mixes I really dig for coding background music. Their length and variety is definitely an advantage of a single artist or album. Some of my favourites I've found from the interwebs:

Tanquery Tom's _Clean Up your Room_ mix - [http://www.modularpeople.com/modcast/55-tanqueray-tom- clean-...](http://www.modularpeople.com/modcast/55-tanqueray-tom-clean-up- your-room/3309.html)

Resident Advisor set from Johnno Burgess - <http://www.residentadvisor.net/podcast-episode.aspx?id=131>

RA set from Greg Wilson - <http://www.residentadvisor.net/podcast- episode.aspx?id=119>

RA set from Discobloodbath - <http://www.residentadvisor.net/podcast- episode.aspx?id=139>

</comment><comment><USER48> Pretty much anything I know by heart and can sing along to works for me. I just shuffle my "Top Rated" playlist all day and try to add at least a few new songs to it every so often.

It's a pretty big mix, with everything from Zero 7 to MF Doom to David Bowie to Gravity Kills to Johnny Cash, Oasis, Dr. Octagon, Lemon Jelly, Hole, and a ton more.

</comment><comment><USER49> I'm a big fan of Zoe Keating for coding music, and as a bonus she recently switched to bandcamp so there's quite a lot of it streaming: <http://music.zoekeating.com/>

Quite a lot of layers to concentrate on, but for some reason it also just works to get me in the zone.

<comment><USER17> +1 for Zoe Keating. I first heard of her about 4 years ago, when she opened for California Guitar Trio in a tiny litttle church in San Diego. One of the best performances I've heard. If you get the chance to see her live, absolutely don't pass it up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER50> * Perfume / GAME

* YMCK / FAMILY GENESIS

* Parliament / Mothership Connection

* Anything I know inside and out and can sing along with without thinking

</comment><comment><USER51> I highly recommend: <http://www.radioparadise.com>

Listener supported radio with an eclectic mix of music, Pink Floyd to Beethovan, Portishead to Cab Calloway, and plenty of indie music I'd otherwise never have heard. DJ Bill Goldsmith mixes his playlists so they almost never interrupt my train of thought. When the music does, my concentration was usually dragging anyway and then I take a 3 min break to check the playlist page and set a rating so I don't forget to pickup the cd next time I'm on a spree.

Bill and his wife Rebecca have a nice community going and it's pretty obvious they're passionate about what they are doing.

</comment><comment><USER52> I prefer music that you can "catch a ride on" because they have a lot of forward harmonic motion: Bach, Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven come to mind. For Bach go no further than Glenn Gould's performances.

Other than that it's occasionally nice to put on some 60's and 70's rock, the grungy kind of stuff (from Pink Floyd to Led Zeppelin to Metallica) that the forefathers of programming languages and personal computing listened to while they worked. There's got to be a relationship (either aesthetically or culturally) between the workflow that they created for us and the music they used to keep them going.

</comment><comment><USER53> Classics: Beethoven, Mozart

Ambient and slow electronics but transparent ones which don't seem too psychedelic or w/ hard feelings, as they easy distract and 'sell' you their emotional setting when you really need to focus instead. So I'd exclude things like Boards of Canada, Aphex Twin, while including artists like Biosphere, Carbon Life Forms, early Orb.

If you're into harder tones I really appreciate stuff like ACDC and Iron Maiden while working - they're quite energetic but not overwhelming like harder metal.

Silence is also very good, esp. if you can hear sound of the trees, waves or whatever nature is outside.

</comment><comment><USER54> It's freaking me out, but my tastes have totally changed over the years. It used to be The Dead Kennedy's and 70's punk, but lately it's minimalist modern classical, like Robert Rich or David Darling...

<comment><USER12> Reich is somebody who I've been introduced to in the last couple weeks. I haven't tried him yet, but I find his work absolutely mind blowing...and exhausting to listen to. It's like a really great hike up a mountain, watching the scenery slowly change the entire way, then absolute exhaustion at the end of the climb.

<comment><USER55> Steve Reich is another Reich worth listening to. My work/concentration playlist has _Music for 18 Muscians_ , _Violin Phase_ , and _Octet_. All great minimalist pieces that are interesting enough to keep your mind engaged, but not too distracting.

<comment><USER12> I was not aware there were two Reich's in minimalist music? Who's the other?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> di.fm Chillout and soma.fm Groove Salad via PyRadio, my very own command line internet radio player: <http://www.coderholic.com/pyradio/>

</comment><comment><USER57> I prefer silence for zoning in ... the quieter the better, not even humming air conditioners if possible.

If I do feel I need some help to zone in, hip hop works best for me (Eminem's 8 mile album is my fav). I can't listen to classical music and concentrate on something else. Impossible. .. and songs with good lyrics are equally distracting .. but since English isn't my first language, I can only cursorily follow hip hop lyrics and so I quickly fall into listening to the words as sounds without meaning .. and the beat goes on.

</comment><comment><USER58> I created a website where I can create/listen to my music playlist and at the same time to my friends' music playlist: <http://jamafriend.com>

</comment><comment><USER59> Massive Attack Portishead

<comment><USER60> Massive Attack discography is my current working music.

<comment><USER61> Absolutely, Collected is a great collection of their best work, and Mezzanine is great as well.

Surprisingly, another piece of music that's great to listen to is the soundtrack from the movie Mr. Brooks with Kevin Costner. It's great for coding.

This guy did the soundtrack: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramin_Djawadi>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> Boredoms (especially Super Roots 9)

Fuck Buttons (especially Tarot Sport)

Hella

Giraffes? Giraffes!

Lightning Bolt

I used to listen to digitally imported but now I find most of the stuff they play (even on the psytracne/goa station) annoyingly repetitive.

</comment><comment><USER63> Russian Circles

Pelican

Explosions in the Sky

Thrice

MGMT

</comment><comment><USER64> Quantic is really cool for the trip/hip hop loving people looking for no lyrics songs.

RJD2 is one of my favorite as well but I end up singing along the songs most of the times :)

</comment><comment><USER65> I've come to conclude that I am alone in the world in this respect: I deliberately do not listen to music when coding (or studying) because I find it way too distracting. I end up listening to the music; enjoying it; analysing it. I would liken it to putting my favourite television show up on a jumbotron while playing tennis. It either is going to distract me terribly, or, if not, it is borderline pointless to have it playing.

</comment><comment><USER66> Soma.fm: groove salad and Secret Agent. I'm in a good routine when they're on. Just like supermarkets with buying music, they tell my brain it's coding time.

<comment><USER67> I like that: "they tell my brain it's coding time." It's more important to me I think to have the _same_ music than specific music.

I use ephiphany radio (<http://www.epiphanyradio.org/>) and Joey Fehrenbach radio on Pandora. They are what tells my brain it's coding time.

<comment><USER66> I'm trying Epiphany now, thanks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> I don't usually listen to music when I code, but when I really need to concentrate or am distracted by background conversations, I usually go for Einstein on the Beach by Phillip Glass.

Back in college, I'd often listen to classical music while working on math. But I occasionally found it distracting (especially Bach, I'd concentrate on the sequence of notes rather than the problem at hand).

<comment><USER69> Glassworks by Phillip Glass gets me to be productive, it is repetitive and some people can't stand it but it works for me. For math the only thing that works for me is silence.

For casual browsing I use Spotify and just look around a bit for something I like, the artist radio has found me quite a couple of gems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER70> Telefon Telaviv is probably some of the best working music I have ever had. Also Sigür Ros is creating beautiful unobtrusive soundscapes.

<comment><USER71> Good choices. Sometimes I like stuff like Gas, Deep Chord or Basic Channel (dubby techno) others Post Rock that's been mentioned, but usually like very calm loopy atmospheric stuff like Harold Budd, William Basinski, Tim Hecker, Ryan Teague, the pop ambient series.

I can't listen to anything with words.

</comment></comment><comment><USER72> I like streaming; set it and forget it.

<http://trancearoundtheworld.com>

<http://mugasha.com>

<http://pandora.com>

<http://grooveshark.com>

sorry thesixtyone... we used to spend a lot of time together, till the UI change ... =(

<comment><USER48> Thankfully there is still <http://old.thesixtyone.com> :)

<comment><USER72> =D

Thanks!! You just made the end (technically start) of my day! That and having a ASK HN submission that got wonderfully great feedback.

I am thankful for HackerNews. I bet we'd all get along reasonably well offline which is a very very unbelievable thing to say relating to anything involving the internet.

Thanks a lot, have a good day!

<comment><USER33> You'll find it is still not really the same, they took quite a bit out of the UI and old.thesixtyone.com sadly isn't quite right.

But it is better than the new UI

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> +1 for Boards of Canada -- I prefer "Music has the Right to Children" over "Geogaddi" when coding -- the latter is a little too angular and abrasive at points.

"Combustication" by Medeski, Martin & Wood is another great one for sustained productivity. For me, anything that grooves is helpful. Stuff with lyrics tends to be too distracting.

<comment><USER74> Have you tried any of the more recent BoC albums? The 'Beautiful Place out in the Country' EP is unabrasive, and I find 'Campfire Headphase' less angular than Geogaddi as well.

<comment><USER73> Yeah, "beautiful place" is on heavy rotation for me as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER75> I like <http://rainymood.com> Not music though, just the sound of rain.

</comment><comment><USER76> Can't believe no one has mentioned The Album Leaf.

Also, Uyama Hiroto, Nujabes, The Dead Texan, Oceanlab, Antoine Dufour, BT, Dosh, Juno Reactor, Lusine and Lusine ICL, Pacific UV, RJD2, Shugo Tokumaru, The Cinematic Orchestra and The Six Parts Seven. Most of it has no lyrics, most of it is rhythmic and soothing to some degree.

<comment><USER77> Album Leaf rule. Now I have to check out the others in your list.

<comment><USER76> Let me know what you think!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER78> I listen to various stuff, but at least once a month I listen to Tubular Bells from Mike Oldfield...a pure classic!

<comment><USER12> And an absolutely stunning musical work. The number of great themes in that music is amazing. It's a shame, I've never felt that his later work ever really explored and expanded on those themes well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER79> Sarah Brightman's "Symphony" album.

Swallow The Sun "New Moon", "Hope" or "The Morning Never Came".

Glen Hansard & Marketa Irglova "The Swell Season".

Deftones "White Pony".

The music has to be (at least for me) the slower kind. For some reason, fast- paced or brutal-sounding music tends to distract me from doing the work (and I'll just enjoy the music instead).

</comment><comment><USER80> The Flashbulb. Good ambient music, doesn't get in the way when you're really focusing on your thoughts...

<comment><USER74> I like The Flashbulb as well, but it depends on which album as to what mix of ambient/breakcore/weirdness you get. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> For GROOVESHARK or THESIXTYONE users, it would be nice if you share your username. Mine is d0m on ts1.

</comment><comment><USER81> <http://www.streamingsoundtracks.com/>

Movie and Video Game OSTs radio station with a HUGE rotation. Usually get in the zone quite fast when listening to it, but I could see it being a bit distracting for other people. YMMV.

</comment><comment><USER82> How I get into "the zone" is by repeatedly listening to my new favourite Bollywood song of the week.

</comment><comment><USER83> I prefer to listen to the same track over and over again. Sometimes I do this with a new song, and listen to the same thing for the entire day.

I find this less distracting that listening to a radio station or a long playlist.

I generally pick the song in the morning depending on my mood.

<comment><USER84> I do this a lot too and it annoys the hell out of everyone around me.

YouTube Repeater (<http://www.youtuberepeater.com>) is super useful if you're like me and listen to most of your stuff online.

Also, to answer the main question: Enter Shikari.

</comment></comment><comment><USER85> I have a playlist of 90's electronica (underworld, prodigy, aphex twin, orbital, future sound of london, the orb, daft punk, etc) called "AMPED" that I made for if I'm losing focus. If I ever fade out, I put that on and it gets me in the zone.

</comment><comment><USER86> If you never have try some 8-BIT music while coding. It really gets you in the zone.

<comment><USER87> Where's a good collection of 8-bit music? I like the music the 8bit renditions of popular music that Engadget stars their podcast with, but don't know a good archive for them.

<comment><USER86> YouTube is currently the best place to find it, just put together or find a playlist. I was spoiled with this, because we built a website for creating YouTube Playlists and we made a bunch of really good ones for Video Game Music. That site is mostly broken now though...

But I will still provide you with my favorite collection of 8-bit (well 16 bit technically) music: <http://flotate.com/?p=12352-Phantasy-Star-2-Soundtrack>

<comment><USER88> I used to listen to Mega Man walkthroughs on youtube. Love the music they created for that series.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER89> <http://xerxes-music.com/>

<comment><USER90> Thank you for the great tip.

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> We Are Hunted (www.wearehunted.com) is a pretty neat web app for finding new music

Here's what I'm listening to <http://wearehunted.com/by/stevelindstrom/>

</comment><comment><USER92> <http://www.eastvillageradio.com/>

HN equivalence of subculture musics radio, very diverse. My favorite is the sunday afternoon program "Minimal Wave Electronics"

</comment><comment><USER93> Buddha Bar and Cafe del Mar discography. Music with other languages vocal.

</comment><comment><USER94> I focus on whatever I'm currently doing really well to Tool and Daft Punk, so mostly them. The music definitely fades into the background, and could probably just as well not be playing, though.

</comment><comment><USER95> I use <http://playlistnow.fm> (if you ask for an invite you should receive it pretty quickly)

The site suggest you playlist depending what you are doing !

</comment><comment><USER96> FG dj radios - 4 radios. great house / deep house at any hour.

</comment><comment><USER97> Recent studies suggest that music may be a detriment to coding, but I still use it anyway. Playing around with the soundtrack from Inception. Its interesting....

</comment><comment><USER98> Either di.fm's eurodance or vocal trance offerings, Streaming death and black metal, or gaga face radio, which is all lady gaga music

Stop looking at me like that >_>

</comment><comment><USER99> <http://like.fm/chris> is what I listen too. Auto play is coming soon.

And yea background music keeps me focused.

</comment><comment><USER100> I prefer silence when my environment is not distracting but in a busy office AC/DC our similar music through headphone helps to concentrate.

</comment><comment><USER101> Music gives a great motivation for coding, I'd say it is a must...

But you must know a balance and time when to turn it off.

Try Japanese traditional music for relaxation.

</comment><comment><USER102> \- Underworld

\- MGMT

\- VAST

\- Pink Floyd

\- Ratatat

\- Daft Punk

\- Thievery Corporation

\- Manu Chao

\- Chopin

\- Beethoven

\- Mozart

just to name a few

<comment><USER103> second Ratatat 'LP4' and 'Classics' are pretty good.

</comment></comment><comment><USER104> Try Dan Deacon - especially Bromst. Discovered this a few months ago; now probably my all-time favorite for coding music.

</comment><comment><USER105> I switch between alternative and new metal, electronic (house / trance), and hip-hop / rnb. Pandora.com is awesome.

</comment><comment><USER106> It depends on my mood at the time, but i will always listen to Beck, Tool, Color haze & Red hot chili peppers

</comment><comment><USER107> Animals as Leaders.

<http://www.myspace.com/animalsasleaders>

</comment><comment><USER108> Classical if I'm doing a long task, Creed / Alter Bridge or similar for a lot of little programming tasks.

</comment><comment><USER109> KLF - Chill Out:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chill_Out>

</comment><comment><USER110> Gets me in the zone: John Coltrane, Chic Corea, Miles Davis, Grateful Dead, Allman Brothers

</comment><comment><USER111> I am a huge folk punk/anti-punk fan. Some I suggest are,,,

-(early) Against Me!

-Andrew Jackson Jihad

-Wingut Dishwashers Union

-This Bike is a Pipe Bomb

-Defiance, Ohio

</comment><comment><USER112> <http://www.bluemars.org/>

</comment><comment><USER113> boards of canada

</comment><comment><USER114> Motown always does it for me

</comment><comment><USER115> <http://friskyradio.com>

</comment><comment><USER116> Steve Reich is rhythmic, repetitive, and very cool. Highly recommended.

</comment><comment><USER117> pretty much everything, hiphop, drum'n'bass, breakz, pop, rock... In the office i'm always listening to music while coding, makes it easier to filter out background noise.

</comment><comment><USER118> qixxiq: Take a listen to <http://radio.hbr1.com:19800/trance.ogg> :)

</comment><comment><USER46> Mogwai, Boards of Canada, Autechre, etc.

</comment><comment><USER119> Porcupine Tree

<comment><USER120> +1. I find that their psychedelics (Lynton Samuel Dawson, Voyage 34, Staircase Infinities, No Reason To Live No Reason To Die, Moonloop) mix quite well with Pink Floyd's (A Saucerful of Secrets, Atom Heart Mother, Set the controls...). Most of the later works are too vocal and distracting.

</comment></comment><comment><USER121> Last.fm "Pendulum Radio"

</comment><comment><USER122> can't concentrate when music is on.

</comment><comment><USER123> Isis

<comment><USER124> [http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=j.m.k.e&aq=f](http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=j.m.k.e&aq=f) punk ftw

</comment></comment><comment><USER125> robert schumann

</comment><comment><USER126> Drum and bass FTW.

Some free sources of D&B are BassDrive.com (live djs), Pandora and Last.fm. After you know what you like there's plenty available (used & cheap) on Amazon.com

Also a lot of techno, Vivaldi and Bach

</comment><comment><USER127> Boards of Canada. I suggest starting with the Trans Canada Highway EP. The track is called "Left Side Drive".

</comment><comment><USER128> metal > amon amarth > dimmu borgir

hah, naw - my favorite is music without lyrics. Seems to make me more productive.

<comment><USER129> Hah, I like Amon Amarth. :(

I usually go between post rock, noise, grindcore, techgrind, chillout and lounge.</comment></comment>


The Loneliness Epidemic - <AUTHOR> https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/the-loneliness-epidemic-is-so-bad-world-leaders-have-been-forced-to-intervene <comment><USER2> The Screen and the Job have displaced almost everything else is our lives. Loneliness is just a primary symptom.

The Screen, whether it's TV, computer, or phone, has supplanted almost all social interactions. This manifests itself in things like SitComs on TV (just a bunch of friends or family hanging out) or Social Media on phones. It's very easy to fill the social needs of right now with a Screen. But under even a minuscule amount of self reflection these are revealed as hollow substitutes for real human interaction.

The Job has completely taken over as a driving force in evaluating choices. The average person has to consider all options in the light of both the current employer and the specter of tomorrow's. Moving across the country for a high paying job? Great! Moving to be closer to friends? That's a career killer.

No wonder we are lonely. We make choices in the short term that optimize happiness, often at the expense of our relationships. Ghosting is not just for dates now. Then turn around and make choices in the long term that optimize employability at the expense of all else.

<comment><USER3> > The average person has to consider all options in the light of both the > current employer and the specter of tomorrow's. Moving across the country > for a high paying job? Great! Moving to be closer to friends? That's a > career killer.

The median person lives just 18 miles away from their mom. 57% of Americans have never lived outside their home state. A third have never lived outside their hometown.

The more I read about it, I'm convinced "loneliness" is an upper middle class problem.

<comment><USER4> Interesting. Anecdotally, this checks out. All of my middle/lower-middle class friends from high school have long been married and raising families, almost in all cases raising them _with_ their extended families. Most of my professional tech friends are barely getting started in their late 30s, and everyone who's started had basically put their career into a slower gear first.

I made a similar choice a couple of years ago to downgrade my career into a slower-paced, less stressful scenario with less money, and again personally for me the results have spoken for themselves.

Unless I'm Elon Musk, the whole business of business isn't really designed in my favor, so it's logical for me to partake but only just so.

<comment><USER5> By definition you wouldn't know many lonely people. The chronically lonely ones are going to be the people who didn't end up getting married when they "should" have, couldn't make it into a proper career or fell out of one at some point. Most upper middle class people won't be lonely since if you can afford a career you can afford a social life or you might even be forced into one. But of course uncertainty and insecurity can make one feel lonely, so I guess that would count. Still that isn't going to be your epidemic. That is going to be those left behind.

<comment><USER6> > Most upper middle class people won't be lonely since if you can afford a > career you can afford a social life or you might even be forced into one.

Social life is not about having money (well unless you're really poor) - it's about having time and people to spend it with. You can be in top 5-10% of income and a total loner - plenty such people in tech.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> We evolved living in relatively small groups where everyone knew each other and exclusion from the group meant likely death. Now we are part of a global social web where at any time, any of our people may be occupied by other parts of their network that do not involve us. This risk of being abandoned instinctively feels like an existential threat, so we live with a constant underlying anxiety that we do not truly belong and are not really safe. It will be interesting to see whether this reality selects for individuals better equipped to cope with it, or whether we develop better systems to allow everyone to cope better... I'd guess a bit of both.

</comment><comment><USER8> I will quote a previous comment on a similar thread[1] I made verbatim here. It is from Steven Pinker's _Enlightenment Now_ , where he reviews data on loneliness in the US students (among two dozen other graphs in the first twenty chapters).

Pinker implies social critics abuse the words "epidemic" and "crisis" (both words used in the article of this thread).

After reviewing the downwards-sloping graph (plotted from 1978-2011) and more data, Pinker writes:

 _Modern life, then, has not crushed our minds and bodies, turned us into atomized machines suffering from toxic levels of emptiness and isolation, or set us drifting apart without human contact or emotion. How did this misconception arise? Partly it came out of the social critic 's standard formula for sowing panic: Here's an anecdote, therefore it's a trend, therefore it's a crisis. But partly came from genuine changes in how people interact. People see each other less in traditional venues like clubs, churches, unions, fraternal organizations, and dinner parties, and more in informal gatherings via digital media. They confide in fewer distant cousins but more in co-workers. They are less likely to have large numbers of friends but also less likely to want a large number of friends. But just because social life looks different today from the way it looked in the 1950s, it does not mean that humans, that quintessentially social species, have become any less social._

I'm not suggesting that everything is hunky-dory, just that we bear in mind the proportions of the problem. Also Pinker may well be off the mark here, as others have pointed out in[1].

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19914075](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19914075)

<comment><USER9> > I'm not suggesting that everything is hunky-dory, just that we bear in mind > the proportions of the problem. Also Pinker may well be off the mark here, > as others have pointed out in[1].

Tried to find more data on this, which seems to confirm Pinker's hypothesis - [https://ourworldindata.org/global-mental- health](https://ourworldindata.org/global-mental-health)

The data seems unrepresentative, though. While data on suicide rates is fairly clear, it might be more interesting to look at revealed preferences instead of self-reported ones. To this end, indicators for "lives of despair" (drug OD deaths, hospitalisation for drug/alcohol abuse etc) might be more appropriate.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I just hope people don't think the working class somehow has this all down pat and that this is merely a case of bourgeois overconsumption. As someone who comes from a ghetto and became a software engineer, I can tell you now that a lot of people I grew up with engage in combinations of racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. The working class are only this candyland of authentic relations if you _also_ accept all the socio-political tenets that go with that particular community. That's no better than being alone.

Edit - Removed some emotional language

<comment><USER11> _Removed some emotional language_

The part where you condemned the people you grew up with? Oh, you left that in. What on earth did you remove--something about kicking dogs?

<comment><USER12> There's nothing wrong with having issues with the community where you came from. I also come from a place with many bigots

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> They say in the article there's no clear rising trend and self reported loneliness as an "issue" was at a similar level going back to the 1940s as today. I figure it's mainly up to two things, which the article touches on briefly.

One, family sizes are down. My parents who emigrated to the US had tons of siblings. My mom had like 8 or 9 (including a few kids who died early) and were closely knit until they emigrated the US separately as adults. My dad had 3 or 4 as well iirc.

Two, the transitions, especially the changing of jobs, and especially if it necessitates a move away from your prior group. People tend to like fixed roles and fixed communities in my experience, changing that is a big risk and a big source of anxiety. I've moved around a lot in the US and I've noticed that a vast majority of people I knew were born and raised in the states they still lived in, sometimes in the same towns, although college and the first "career" job tended to be the biggest changes and the transitions slow down after that unless forced. This even holds true for a lot of the emigrated workers I've known. As soon as externalities like job security and immigration status are stable they build families and start looking to settle down and hope to find a career long employer.

I would imagine that based on what I've seen people would be less lonely with fixed jobs, in fixed locations, with large, stable families. And people hopping jobs, company layoffs, long lived local businesses failing, and families having fewer kids are big causes of "loneliness". Although, like the article says there's not exactly a strong rising trend going back as far as the last century anyway...

</comment><comment><USER14> Really. I think the big problem here is social networks. Nobody interact face to face.I used to go to bars , look for a pretty girl and pay her a drink to start a conversation. Nowdays this is considered creep. They expect that I download an app, wait for a match ans just goeet for a quick chat and maybe some action. Just turn of your computers and go to a bar. Interact to people. Start conversations with stranger people. You may meet weird people. But also will meet amazing people.

<comment><USER15> I met my husband less than a decade ago in a bar. I still talk to strangers in bars now too. Its not any more creepy to socialize with strangers in bars now than it was in the past, as long as you respect boundaries and aren't a creep about it.

The vast majority of people still meet their partners through "traditional" means, very, very few meet through sites and apps. And when I say "very, very few" I'm talking less than 10%.

[https://www.mic.com/articles/112062/the-way-most-people- meet...](https://www.mic.com/articles/112062/the-way-most-people-meet-their- significant-others-is-not-what-you-think)

[https://www.bustle.com/p/the-most-popular-ways-people-are- me...](https://www.bustle.com/p/the-most-popular-ways-people-are-meeting- their-significant-others-in-2018-8075828)

<comment><USER16> I think he meant buying the drink is creepy. I go to bars on occasion and meet women my age and younger, but I've never bought them a drink because I feel the same way (although I don't think they expect it either.)

Starting the conversation is hard and it can be very difficult to tell if they really want to talk before they do, I guess that's part of why you want a good bartender because they'll usually start conversations with everyone.

<comment><USER14> Welll you just dont walk straing in. You first exchange glances, see if shes alone, whatt shes drinking (soft drinks, hard licor, beer, some fancy cocktail) and judge something about her personality, if you think you have a chance, then you pay for a drink, or just straigth hit her with something, in my case somthing dumb like "Hey, how much a polar bear weigths? Enougth to break the ice!".

What I think is creep is some stranger who straigup knows your name, your face, and can just as easy starting to virtual stalking your life and find out where you live.

Fucking hating online dating solutions like tinder.... really not good talker on line, without seeing the person face to face.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I miss the social aspects of living in Italy. It just felt easier to connect with people there. People are kind of weird and standoffish here in the US, and in some cases feel a bit fake. If you ask if someone wants to grab a beer (or spritz/wine/whatever) in Italy, and they respond enthusiastically, it seems there's a good chance they'll try and make it happen.

<comment><USER18> Try Germany or Switzerland for a year, you'd be super happy to get back to US ;-)

<comment><USER17> Lived in Austria for a couple years... it was hard to say though. I didn't speak the language there, so people were friendly, but obviously it kind of limited my interactions to anglophones or locals with the desire to have English speaking friends.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> There was a story here a few months ago that seems pertinent.

> A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, research suggests

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19971294](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19971294)

<comment> em-bee at one point a friend of mine was lamenting how all these volunteer activities kept her from having a social life, to which i responded that these activities were my social life, and i would not have it any other way. it's all a matter of perspective.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Ants don't meet at the bar at the end of the day to chill with each other. It isn't necessary. And their society isn't unraveling.

The more connected the human ant hill gets the more we will behave like ants. Disconnected because we don't need to be as connected. Connected because that is the only way to survive. Those that can't handle the change...wont. This is a process of societal metamorphosis whose tracks have already been laid.

<comment><USER21> I think the ant brain and the human brain are extremely different. I bet the ants are not capable of feeling loneliness, they don't have enough neurons for that.

<comment><USER20> That's true. Maybe we are going through a transition where we shed some :) There is lots of evidence for it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I think I'll be a little buried, but a thought- where can you go to hang out and not spend any money? Seems like historical gathering places all now cost money, or you're not allowed to be there.

<comment><USER23> Tech meetups.

Volunteering.

<comment><USER22> Both of those involve doing something. I'm not talking about meeting new people or starting a new hobby, I mean just... going to sit and gab with your friends.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> > "You can see the problem here: A national culture that promotes polite > restraint, and which actively fends off and forestalls the forming of > relationships between strangers, is one that might as well be inviting > loneliness on its population. And at a time when emotional seclusion is > increasingly being seen as a crisis in countries around the Western world, > perhaps this is what has made English people uniquely sensitive to > loneliness as a major health concern."

This is evidently written from the perspective of an englishman, but I find the contrast with the American South (where I was born and raised) evident: here, it is very common to strike up a pleasant conversation with strangers. If you are left in each other's company for a few minutes, it's almost rude not to. I find that there's something of a cultural difference which might help here, as you can get a little bit of socialization from unexpected places. I regularly chat with the doorman at my office, and know he has another job as a music promoter. He also figured out a particularly clever way to game Spotify. Same with lots of other random people.

I'm not positioning this as a perfect solution, but as one more change which might help. Half of me wonders if this is because the South was always so spread-out that we took company where we could get it. But I certainly am not qualified to trace the roots of cultural stuff like this. Anyway, just something to think on.

<comment><USER25> Not from the South myself, but I noticed a similar trend in parts of the Midwest and anywhere that's not a big city.

Similar to the UK would be somewhere like Japan, which is well-known for its culture of restraint and politeness. Loneliness and suicide rates are high, while dating and marriage are suffering. It would appear a result of having a relatively restrained social culture.

PS. what is the spotify trick?

<comment><USER24> That's the thing about a trick... if you reveal it, it's gone. I suspect there are a few Spotify engineers who read this; wouldn't want to give it away.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> I'm no psychologist or some sort of an expert,so this is just my own life experience: I grew up with quite a variety of people: some were pure criminals(drugs,roberry, extortion,theft),while others ended up being lawyers, mathematicians, businessman, doctors or civil servants. Some lacked brains while others lacked courage. Ultimately,if you feel lonely,drop FB, Instagram, WhatsApp and other crap.Just fucking delete that crap. There are always people who are interested in the way you think and are absolutely excited to listen and just talk to you till the sun rises... Feeling outspoken and like going to places? Go to those night clubs, restaurants or parties.Feel like being quiet persona in the corner? Well,join like-minded people, play Warhammer, build a train set and so on. Whatever you do,drop that Instagram/Facebook/LinkedIn bullshit,where everyone seems to be conquering the world.Just drop it. Go to the bloody library,local reading club, whatever. Also,learn how to listen. Actually hear what people are saying,how they feel. All this stuff turns into conversations, follow-up meetings and ultimately friendship or something more. there's plenty of space for everyone, despite of looks, character or anything else. It's not as hard as you make it!

</comment><comment><USER27> It only makes sense for this epidemic to take place in the society we've developed. We are tearing apart the fabric and the bond that kept everyone feeling as a part of community; namely, religion. Religion was never designed for people to fear the man upstairs; it was always about the values and the bond it created between each member of that religion.

Individualism and decadence are being more or less encouraged, or at any rate tolerated; families are shrinking and relationships are treated just like another object. The concept of friendship lost value as a result of the tolerance towards vices (envy being the leading cause).

I believe that the Christian religion was in part developed to address these problems. I am not aware of any society that lasted without religion and had strong communal ties.

I don't understand how anyone can be surprised at this result.

Stop for a moment and think: what bonds me with the people living in my vicinity? Since in 2019, you can't say: religion, race, nationality and nation without being labeled one way or another. And historically, nothing else worked.

<comment><USER28> I grew up in a highly conservative and (according to statistics) religious society (Poland) and my observation is that it's not correlated.

People who sought company in church were often disappointed, because most of the others who went there had lives of their own and weren't that invested in the whole thing.

Hell, the loneliest people I know are consistently religious.

<comment><USER6> Polish society was very heavily wounded by 50 years of hardcore socialism combined with the police state (at the hands of the Soviets). The levels of trust people have towards each other are still abysmally low. I wouldn't use Poland as an example, because it is (like other post-Soviet block states) still very much not normal.

<comment><USER28> I don't know about that. My parents both knew their neighbors very well(which made a lot of sense in times where you'd need a network of people to find some of the more rare goods), while I have no little to no relationship with mine - and I was born just before the previous system collapsed.

<comment><USER6> I don't deny that people are more lonely now in Poland that they were in socialism. In my opinion, it's the combination of convenience (like you said, people used to need each other for simple things, and now they can just buy everything), alienating electronics entertainment and capitalism, where everyone needs to paddle very hard to get ahead or merely stay afloat. It seemed to me that my parents were happier under socialism than they are now, even though now their material standard of living is greater by like a magnitude.

Regarding trust, I would say there was very little trust in the socialist times as well. You don't need a lot of trust to borrow some salt from a neighbor or even trade a favors (ex. you get me ahead in the queue to buy a car and in exchange I get you access to buying foreign holidays), which is what people mainly were doing in the socialism. You do however need a lot of trust to start a business together. Since in socialism all people were just cogs in the giant socialist machine, they never needed to develop trust towards each other. Now, in capitalism, it's backfiring.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Why do we need to "run away" from loneliness? Maybe we all need to spend more time alone AND off the phone to discover what really "makes us tick"? Find yourself, find a mission, find a purpose. Go do something. There is SOOOO much to be done... I mean it.. Like RIGHT NOW. If you don't have a mission.. Bruh... Go get one. Loneliness is simply childish. Children sit around and wish someone would talk to them. Adults go join other adults to make something happen; or they learn to be with themselves. If you can't find happiness within; it's not going to come from you visiting your parents, or seeing your grandchildren, or insert whatever Hallmark phrase you like. Sure being surrounded by people you love when you die will feel nice. But you can truly "rest in peace" if you know you tried your hardest to make a difference (and you actually do!.. Because you actually can...)

<comment><USER30> Choosing to be alone (isolation) is not the same as loneliness. Honestly, the world has changed a lot, and that might end up not being a big problem in the future; maybe having isolation become more socially accepted wouldn't be that bad.

The problem we are seeing right now is that it looks like everything is moving towards a kind of social-contact-unfriendliness. Too much stress, connection (the expectation of being always reachable, and therefore available for work), busy streets, dominated by cars, big and impersonal chain stores, etc. Many of these are not necessarily bad by themselves, but they also had an important role in social interaction that has shifted now, and we might need time to find new spaces and solutions for that interaction.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> This may seem somewhat out there, very uninformed or misanthropic, but I've been thinking about basic human needs(emotion,ego,the desire for companionship - both spiritual and otherwise) as vestigial evolutionary artifacts. Evolution and the survival of the human race _required_ collaboration, those who did not died and failed to pass on their genes.

In the modern age though, I could argue that close collaboration is _not_ a necessity for survival or even success, and as such why cant a portion of humanity thrive without the need for extensive social contact?

<comment><USER32> Some portion of humanity can undoubtedly thrive with limited/no social contract, but for the majority of us these "evolutionary artifacts" are still very real and consequently still exert a very real force on our lives.

Until the day comes that we are able to (if we are able to) remove these drives, neglecting them will continue to have deleterious effects.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> _You can see the problem here: A national culture that promotes polite restraint, and which actively fends off and forestalls the forming of relationships between strangers, is one that might as well be inviting loneliness on its population._

Let's not forget there are two hazards here. Loneliness is one; the other is the suffocating tyranny of constantly attending to others' ideas and feelings, because attending to your own would be unacceptably disruptive of precious social connectedness. In "A Room of One's Own" Virginia Woolf diagnosed the injustice of a society that reserves the privilege of aloneness to men, and particularly upper class men, while denying it to women (who are supposed to be "selfless") and to a lesser extent the lower classes (who are supposed to be too mindless and animalistic to make anything of solitude.)

Being reluctant to intrude on another's social space is a good thing. It should be joined with skill at inviting others in, and a readiness to respond to that invitation. Let's not shit on people who have solved one half of the problem as if they were inferior to people who have only solved the other half.

<comment><USER34> Freedoms of being alone:

\- no one asking favors

\- no obligations

\- no emotional BS dumped on you

\- no judgements

\- no going along with what you don't want to do or opting-out

\- no one invading/pushing your boundaries

\- no meetings to keep

\- fewer liabilities

\- no disappointments

\- no hierarchy

\- more projects and work done

Disadvantages to being alone:

\- more stress

\- more anxiety

\- less potential fun

\- less sex

\- less humor

\- less mental stimulation

\- fewer opportunities

\- less productivity for big projects

To each, their own; there are many trade-offs and no simple answers. Key question "better together?"

</comment></comment><comment><USER35> Is this problem more an urban or rural thing? Is it related to any certain age groups? Is the problem stratified by education or occupational categories?

</comment><comment><USER36> At the risk of sounding like a crazy hippy, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that some kind of subsistence-based neighborhoods would be a great option for dealing with this problem.

Not only would it provide some relief from the feeling of being shackled to bullshit jobs for life if you don't want to starve to death, it would also help foster much stronger communities.

<comment><USER37> Some friends of mine from college and I, while considering our impending matriculation into the housing and job market of LA, conceived of the idea of 'failure house'; a place where we could all live when we failed at life. We still talk about it ten years on, and it has evolved into the idea of 'failure commune'. One of these friends became a lawyer and bought a house in Orange County recently. Traitor.

<comment><USER38> I just graduated college and am having similar thoughts (but think Bay Area instead of LA). It seems like a great idea but I know of few examples besides full-on communes. Do you know of any examples of living communities or living styles that fall somewhere between living on your own and living on a commune?

<comment><USER36> Look up online communities dedicated to Homesteading. There also seems to be a movement around "backyard chickens" (i.e. raising small amounts of livestock at an average suburban house).

So far I haven't come across any information on physical communities of homesteaders, although a local community seems like a necessity if you ever want to take a vacation again. Can't really leave crops on their own for very long without them dying, let alone livestock...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> These articles rarely if ever mention the breakdown between men and women. I do believe loneliness is largely something men deal with.

<comment><USER40> Why?

<comment><USER41> anecdotally (and not GP), most of the women I am friends with have several good friends in the area where they live and easily make new ones if they ever move to a new place. for many of my male friends, I am the only friend they have in the area.

I don't think I can generalize to entire genders from my experience though. it could simply be that it's easier for introverts to make same-gender friendships, so I only have a set of relatively outgoing women to select friends from.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> It's more of a journalist epidemic - they keep reaching for straw-men to justify their existence.

Talking about loneliness is slightly more interesting than what dress celebrity X wore at event Y. It's just bullshit - at least the dress talk doesn't pretend otherwise, for the most part.

We're living in the greatest time ever. I understand that when you make no money and you're writing articles, it may seem like there is a loneliness epidemic. There isn't - we're doing better than ever. More people are having first world problems than ever. It's great to have those, just talk to someone with a little perspective that you respect for it to rub off on you and go on about your day :)

<comment><USER43> On the contrary, many of the people I've met who most definitely do not have first world problems -- people living in Africa, Southeast Asia, and other destitute parts of the world -- often seem to lead genuinely happier lives than the stressed out existence that is the norm in the US.

Being able to have a cheeseburger delivered on demand does not make up for systematic loneliness and dehumanization. The more I travel, the more perspective I get, the more I think that things have gone deeply wrong here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> Could it be that Facebook and social media in general are the cause?

[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/is- face...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/05/is-facebook- making-us-lonely/308930/)

"Likes" and reading narcissistic postings probably are not a good substitute for real human contact, and the more people become addicted to social media the less real human contact they are likely to seek. Of course companies like Facebook and Google (YouTube) purposely design their offerings to be addictive and as we know additions can be detrimental to one's mental and physical health.

<comment><USER45> No. Did you read the OP's article? I'll excerpt a relevant section for you:

 _Although the current focus on isolation is often described in the media as "the loneliness epidemic," Robin Hewings, Director of Campaigns, Policy and Research for the U.K.'s Campaign to End Loneliness, warns that for a subjective, self-reported experience like loneliness, "it's not very easy to make comparisons across time, and it's not obvious that it's getting worse."

While he acknowledges that aging populations mean that there are likely to be a greater number of elderly people around who are suffering from isolation than in previous decades, he also points out that when you look at the percentages of those affected, the trends are harder to discern. "There was some work done in the late 1940s, which would seem to suggest a not dissimilar level to today. This is right at the speculative end,"_

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Solitude is beneficial for an individual and dangerous for society. Loneliness is dangerous for individual but beneficial for economy. My guess is that "solitude" is the one sounding alarm, not loneliness.

</comment><comment><USER46> A lot of people who feel lonely, are hardly ever alone. imagine how shitty and uninterested we really are to eachother and ourselves... if we can be together and feel alone at the same time. Stop neglecting yourself, and that will make you stop neglecting others.

My tips: Actively take time for yourself. to get to know yourself and become more aware of yourself. Even if you do not suffer from such symptoms yet, it will be one of the most valuable things you can do for yourself in whatever position or situation you find yourself.

<comment><USER21> When I go to work there are 500 people in the building, but less than 10 that I consider close enough to care about. That can be zero in different conditions. Having over 7 billion people on the same planet has no impact on loneliness, the discussion is not about physical loneliness.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> \- Decline of organized religion

\- Rise of hyper-mobility

\- Rise of the portable screen

\- Rise of inequality necessitating more workaholism

\- Increase of monopolized corporate media

\- Heightened nationalism, xenophobia and politically-polarized, separate realities

are factors which atomize people from each other.

<comment><USER47> Great list. Can you explain the impact of "Increase of monopolized corporate media" ?

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> My contribution to the topic: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17794060](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17794060)

</comment><comment><USER49> I thought the puns in the section titles were quite clever, especially "Lonely Hearts Club: Banned"

</comment><comment><USER50> .loneliness { position: relative; }

Like all things in life, loneliness is not absolute in origin. Depending on your circumstances, combined with external levers, loneliness is not easy to pinpoint, but there are a few common externalities.

For the blue collar worker you have your typical financial concerns that make you overwork or worry about not having enough work to provide for yourself and or family. Spending time on people is a luxury most people with financial concerns simply cannot afford. If you are lucky you'll be working too much to be lonely and it'll only hit you when you have time to catch a breath.

Screen time is certainly a factor but not a cause. It's a symptom of a sick society with failed systems, infrastructure, architecture, family structures and communities.

Depending where you are in the world, design of your community or should I say the lack of, will play a large role. If it takes a 30 min drive to see a friend be say a 5 minute walk, it becomes easier to remove yourself from face to face interactions.

The constant rise in cost of living puts financial stress on families, which in turn translates to personal stress, health problems, obesity and so on. This fuels a feedback loop that ultimately leaves little to no room for interaction with anyone. The easiest way to medicate that issue is you guessed it, with a screen.

Then you have your constant exposure to media and the team effect of polarization. People are brainwashed by nonstop streaming of irrelevant crap which makes them feel like crap and further remove themselves from society. Add in social media which amplifies all of these effects. The grass is always greener on the other side and this seems especially true through social media lens. Down the depression hole we go which further removes us from interaction.

We make deliberate effort to improve "mobility" and "accessibility" through roads and infrastructure which alienated public transportation projects. If you are lucky to live in a small walkable community, you might stand a chance at running into someone you know to strike up a conversation, but otherwise good luck talking to everyone speeding down a road. Even small rural communities in walkable cities are getting less friendly to foot traffic in certain parts of the world due to vehicle congestion.

Let's not forget the convenience of online shopping. As awesome as it is, we simply don't get as much stimulation as we would going outside and seeing people face to face, whether we talk or not is irrelevant.

For kids there are video games. Can't play? No problem, watch others play. Society norms have changed. In countries like US, depending on where you live, talking to others outside comes across as odd and unwelcoming. We are so concerned about everyone's need to be left alone that we ignore their silent plea to have anyone take any interest in their life.

Consumer choices have been negatively shaping people to feel more individual. When everything is customized to your liking, it's hard to think as a group, for the benefit of the collective. This in turn leads to more consumerism, heightened expectations and disappointments when those expectations are not met.

Information has a large role to play in spread of loneliness. Having to choose from thousands of products online vs just getting one or two choices, shapes our expectations. Before, I'd you wanted to buy some nice bed sheets, you'd go to a store and maybe make a day out of it. Go to the mall, eat out, do things with others, relatives, friends. Now you click a button and spend days or hours looking at thousands of search optimized product titles which may or may not have anything to do with what you searched for. All the consumer choices and information like reviews, while seemingly great, just cause more mental fatigue, stress and ultimately contribute to a host of factors, some of which are tied to loneliness.

This is just scratching the surface. My point being, we are brining this onto ourselves in many different shapes and forms.

</comment><comment><USER51> For me it is a rather paradoxical situation. On the one hand I am a very lonely person and on the other hand I like being alone. When I am alone I tend towards depression and crave social interaction but not all social interaction works. For instance, if I spend a day with my family it is usually great for about 2 or 3 hours and then all I can think about is getting home so I can be by myself again.

For me it is not enough to just be with people. For instance, when I was in HS I would never have characterized myself as a lonely person. I believe that is because those relationships, long forgotten, had serious depth. I also had more confidence when I was younger making my intimate life easier to progress.

However, now a days I have neither and I have lost the confidence to strike up the band. I honestly find it hard to even look a women in the eyes much less ask her for her name and tell her mine. Tbh, even if I was going to force myself to make a new friend I wouldn't know where to start.

Luckily for me I have pretty damn thick skin and have learned to deal with my loneliness, depression and anxiety. That being said, at 32, I find myself feeling as though dying young and alone is a probability. However, I take heart in knowing that it could be worse, for many people are simply dying of starvation and so, on the whole, I am a pretty lucky guy.

If loneliness is a problem that someone else can solve I just don't see how. From my perspective, this is a problem that, like a snowball rolling down a hill, builds up over time and eventually takes on a life of its own.

<comment> em-bee not paradoxical at all. i went through a similar experience. i found that for me the solution was to have very few but very close friends, including my wife. those then were the only people that i could socialize with without being exhausted. but even then i need a few hours to myself every day.

the hardest part was how long it took to understand the problem. you seem to understand the problem already, and that puts you into the position to do something about it.

you don't need to strike up the band. find activities that you are interested in. a hobby, or volunteer somewhere. the nice thing about both is that you are not expected to do it for the sake of meeting people, so you don't need to push yourself to talk to anyone, and noone will mind if you just focus on the work. the socialization will come eventually. by the time you get to look a woman into the eyes, you may already have shared your activities for a few months or more. i met my wife that way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER52> _When politicians are staging national interventions to force us to connect with each other — and actually spending real money on the problem — you know it's a genuine crisis_

No. Politicians throwing money at something is not evidence of a crisis.

<comment><USER37> Can you see that this is an extremely dogmatic view? If society has seemingly agreed that society needs government, part of society needs to actually administer that government.

<comment><USER24> > Can you see that this is an extremely dogmatic view?

Snuck premise much? I doubt he'd agree that it's dogmatic, nor would I. Governments are certainly needed for certain things, but politicians tend to come up with problems to solve, or try to solve problems which they are not equipped to solve. They aren't really supposed to create a _social_ order so much as a _legal_ one, anyway. Even if the could, I'd see that as disturbingly close to brain-washing...

<comment><USER37> > Governments are certainly needed for certain things, but politicians tend to > come up with problems to solve, or try to solve problems which they are not > equipped to solve.

This is why it's dogmatic. You can't agree that there are use cases and then in the same sentence denigrate all the use cases. Or... I guess you can, but...

> They aren't really supposed to create a social order so much as a legal one, > anyway.

At the risk of being overly ontological, the legal order arises from the social order, since the law is simply a construct of beliefs that society nominally agrees on.

> Even if the could, I'd see that as disturbingly close to brain-washing...

...And there it is. It's ok to disagree with some things that politicians do. That doesn't mean there aren't good politicians.

<comment><USER53> > At the risk of being overly ontological, the legal order arises from the > social order, since the law is simply a construct of beliefs that society > nominally agrees on.

That is a big leap to call those two ontological. Laws represent the beliefs of those that right them, nothing more. I am sure most politicians believe they know the will of their constituents, which is simply another belief. And yes, if a law is egregiously beyond social norms, it is possible that it will be rejected by soceity, but I would argue that is a distinct veto function.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> The good thing is we can walk next door and meet our neighbor.

It is strange this is an epidemic when it is a problem that seems so easy to solve.

UPDATE: based on responses to my comment it seems the core problem may be closer to home than we like to admit. CS Lewis' book The Great Divorce details this misanthropy, where hell is a product of the residents' own making because they choose to live on their own because they do not like anyone else.

<comment><USER55> I'm amazed at the responses and downvotes to this comment. Is everyone terrified of small talk with their neighbors?

<comment><USER56> I live in a place where the neighbors are likely to talk about their religion, their football team, their other football team, their kids, their kid's football team, something implicitly racist, something explicitly racist, their job/boss/business (or lack thereof), or their vehicle. I'd only want to hear about two of those things.

I'd prefer to talk about events or ideas, or activities that interest me. It's far easier to join an online discussion already in progress to feel less isolated in South Bumblefart, USA.

I have found that familiarity does sometimes breed contempt, but absence does not always make the heart grow fonder.

<comment><USER55> It's hard to make friends when you assume you're superior to everyone

<comment><USER57> im In the same position a lot of the time when meeting new people. It's not because I feel superior, I just lack interest and any knowledge of sports and cars and most topics that a lot of other people use for small talk.

Now, if they want to talk about that time their fighter gutted an orc with an awesome double crit, I'm all ears, but Cowboys losing to some other team in sportsball, not so much.

<comment><USER56> Exactly this. Superiority has nothing to do with it.

Some people have uncommon interests or opinions, and may be reticent about sharing them in the absence of some enabling signal, as one can be punished socially just for having them.

It doesn't help that my employer has a mainstream dress code. If I saw an exact copy of myself before or after work, I wouldn't want to talk to it, unless we were in a nerd haven.

I've had too many conversations that bring in early "so what church y'all go to?" or "what's your football team?". The wrong answers can get you a "bless your heart," which seems to be Southern for "fuck off, asshole". Wearing a Chicago Cubs tee-shirt sometimes invites conversation, but my spouse is the fan that live-streams every MLB broadcast that isn't regionally blacked out, and for me it's really more a signal for "I'm from the Midwest." The Chicago skyline on my usual payment card has sometimes unintentionally served the same purpose from restaurant servers and cashiers who are also ex-Chicago- residents.

It's why I'm considering a nerd tattoo, like "e^pi*i=-1" or the Fano plane mnemonic for octonion multiplication, or a space-filling model of my favorite molecule, benzaldehyde.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Are Coders Worth It? - <AUTHOR> https://aeon.co/essays/dad-s-company-made-burgers-mine-just-eats-them <comment><USER2> The worth is 'hacker mindset' regardless of domain.

</comment><comment><USER3> (2013)</comment>


A federal carbon tax is imminent in the USA, and Exxon is pushing it - <AUTHOR> https://electrek.co/2016/08/29/a-federal-carbon-tax-is-imminent-in-the-usa-and-exxon-is-pushing-it/ <comment><USER2> Exxon is probably pushing this because it will help their business.

The #1 "victim" of a carbon tax is coal, which accounts for about 30% of our energy production. A carbon tax will redistribute this production to other sources, mainly natural gas (which emits 42% less carbon). Exxon does a lot of natural gas extraction, and virtually nothing with coal.

Exxon is also working on carbon sequestration technology. Which becomes a much more profitable business if there is a real carbon tax.

And as far as oil goes - a carbon tax has comparatively little effect on gas prices. $30/ton would be about 27 cents per gallon [1].

[1] [https://www.uscleanenergyfund.com/articles/carbon-tax- simula...](https://www.uscleanenergyfund.com/articles/carbon-tax-simulator/) (disclaimer - I made this)

EDIT - After RT-entire-FA, I see they got to this point. But I think they are overcomplicating things with points #1,2,4,5. It's just good business for Exxon.

<comment><USER3> 27 cents a gallon is quite a lot.

<comment><USER4> Gas prices vary by that amount just from state to state.

<comment><USER5> And that variance is also considered "a lot."

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> We cannot rely on Exxon to lobby for carbon tax legislation that will represent the average person. Please take 2 minutes to learn about the carbon tax and call your representatives. "Hey my name is [your name] and I want the Representative to support the "Climate Protection and Justice Act"

Find your reps: [http://tryvoices.com/](http://tryvoices.com/) Learn more: [http://www.carbontax.org/](http://www.carbontax.org/)

<comment><USER7> I wasn't sure if carbontax.org was a good site, but then saw a number of the founders worked for Move NY, and upon googling them, I found that they are fighting for congestion pricing in NY. Which signals to me that they get it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> The title is hyperbolic; a federal carbon tax is not imminent.

Source: I work at a tax policy nonprofit. Someone in the office probably would've mentioned it if such a tax were around the corner.

<comment><USER9> That's not how "knowledge" and "information" works.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I feel like a lot of the people who push carbon taxes have little to no empathy for those who live in rural communities.

<comment><USER11> I feel like a lot of the people who are against carbon taxes have little to no empathy for those who live in areas of the globe most likely to become less hospitable to life in a few decades.

And that's a lot more people who tend to be much poorer than even the poor rural Americans.

<comment><USER10> People in rural communities typically earn less and consume more petroleum based products. They don't have public transportation. A carbon tax will only further widen the gap between the rich and the poor.

<comment><USER12> _People in rural communities typically earn less and consume more petroleum based products._

The argument goes, this is exactly why a carbon tax is needed. The externalities of using fossil fuels aren't captured in the price, leading to overconsumption. There are plenty of ways to mitigate impact, either by applying a graduated subsidy to low-income populations, etc. Allowing folks to continue to live in a financially unsustainable way doesn't seem to be the answer...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Everyone knows we need a direct carbon tax, it's just too convenient politically to be anti-tax. As a result, I think this is mostly a marketing problem.

From the article, it looks like the current bill is "Climate Protection and Justice Act of 2015". I propose instead the "Save our Children Act". Hard to be against that.

<comment><USER14> ... unborn children ... ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> From what I can tell, this is a political maneuvering by the oil industry to not be nailed to the cross like the tobacco industry did: knowingly selling a highly toxic product that is conclusively linked to many disorders including cancer, and covering it up or minimizing it in the media for decades to continue profiting.

Unfortunately, it's not going to work, and they will be ran out of business through the political will of the people, just as the tobacco industry is now having done to it.

You're not cool if you smoke, and you're not cool if you don't drive a Tesla. It isn't often that the right thing is also the cool thing; everyone involved should pat themselves on the back for a job well done.

<comment><USER16> People who compare oil and tobacco ignore the benefits side. For tobacco, the positive benefits are very small. The oil industry on the other hand powers our entire modern way of life.

* Ever fly in an airplane - thank oil

* Ever ride in a car or bus - thank oil

* Live in a cold climate and heat your home in winter - thank oil

* Ever use plastics - thank oil

* Ever buy something on Amazon and had it shipped to you - thank oil

* Ever buy something manufactured in another country - thank oil

* Ever use electricity on a still night - you should probably thank natural gas or coal

* Ever mail a letter - thank oil

If tobacco and tobacco products were suddenly unavailable tomorrow morning - the world would probably be a better place

If oil and oil products were suddenly unavailable tomorrow morning - it would probably result in the collapse of civilization as we know it and millions of deaths

Let's not pretend oil and tobacco have anywhere near the same pro/con trade offs.

<comment><USER17> Oil is in everything. Transportation of course, but it's in our clothes, our houses, computers, our food (fertilizer for example), etc. It's very difficult to point to something that oil ISN'T in (here in the US). I'm sure I'll get responses which do.

NPR Planet Money recently did a series of podcasts about oil - it was pretty good. #4 was the episode where they talked a bit about what oil goes into: [http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/08/19/490408060/oil-4...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2016/08/19/490408060/oil-4-how- oil-got-into-everything)</comment></comment></comment>