Windows 7 computers are  automatically starting the Windows 10 upgrade - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/4a0asv/warning_windows_7_computers_are_being_reported_as/ <comment><USER2> Maybe the way to block it is still:

[https://support.microsoft.com/en- us/kb/3080351](https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351)

        Subkey: HKLM\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate
        DWORD value: DisableOSUpgrade = 1

The MSFT decision to perform forced updates is covered, for example, by Extreme Tech, February 2:

"Look out: Microsoft shifts Windows 10 to 'Recommended' update, automatic download"

[http://www.extremetech.com/computing/222326-look-out- microso...](http://www.extremetech.com/computing/222326-look-out-microsoft- shifts-windows-10-to-recommended-update-automatic-download)

I still believe they shouldn't have done that and I hope they get sued, heavily. Even if nobody dies, it's not OK. People had fully working computer and some of them wont. I have one such computer, which works on Windows 7 but doesn't on Windows 10.

<comment><USER3> I'm really hoping this crap badly affects the computers of some large justice/gov systems around the world (and/or the home computers of senior judges).

That should get the right people involved for sticking the boots in.

<comment><USER4> If the IT staff for any large organization hasn't reviewed their inventory for affected systems and taken appropriate steps... that's outright incompetence. The writing has been on the wall for years and MS clearly documents unaffected systems (which includes Windows 7 Enterprise) and the required Group Policy to block the update[1].

[1] [https://support.microsoft.com/en- us/kb/3080351](https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351)

<comment><USER2> It's the same link I've already given above? And fascinatingly for you, "the writing was on the wall," and for some other commenters, it's unimaginable that it even happens. The perceptions of individuals are really hugely different.

<comment><USER5> The difference in context is important. If you're working in IT, the writing was on the wall.

<comment><USER6> There are literally millions of businesses with no IT department who bought consumer workstations or laptops running outside of a domain. There are millions of small businesses who literally don't have the expertise (or frankly, the need) to run a domain controller, and who certainly don't have enough money to justify purchasing a server and a Windows server license to do so.

I'm genuinely curious as to whether I'll be down voted for this. It's completely the case, and I'm not asking not to be downvote do, but could folks at least explain why they don't like the comment?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> This upgrade occurred to my father's Dell laptop, which became hung during the install and essentially "locked" from his standpoint. (He lives in another state and I'm not able to assist his technical needs.)

In any case, he took it to Office Max where he bought it and asked them to fix it. They did: they wiped his hard drive clean and installed Windows 10.

With none of his files.

Aggressive updating of an OS is not always a good thing, even with the best of intentions. It feels more like a desperate attempt to force some people into a world they don't want to be in so Customer Support can have a better time of it (I doubt customer support is having a better time of it right now).

<comment><USER8> Does your father still have the laptop? If so, ask him not to use it until you can get hold of it, and when you do I'd suggest running a Linux live distro on the machine with tools to recover deleted files, there's a decent chance you'll be able to recover many of them.

I've had success with the tools included in Trinity Rescue Kit before, so I can recommend that to you. I've used it to recover a bunch of pictures that were lost with a drive reformat.

[http://trinityhome.org/Home/index.php?content=TRINITY_RESCUE...](http://trinityhome.org/Home/index.php?content=TRINITY_RESCUE_KIT____CPR_FOR_YOUR_COMPUTER&front_id=12&lang=en&locale=en)

<comment><USER7> Probably a lost cause. He had over 4K photos that he had taken in the 70s digitized from slides and organized.

All that work was blown away. He has digi backups of the files, but all the organization and notes are gone.

He's 77 with a quad-bypass in December, and the thought of starting over is, well, depressing for him. Not sure he's going to even try at this point.

<comment><USER8> > "He's 77 with a quad-bypass in December, and the thought of starting over > is, well, depressing for him."

I'm sorry to hear that.

> "Not sure he's going to even try at this point."

I'm not suggesting he tries, I'm suggesting you try on his behalf.

<comment><USER7> That's the trouble - the organization isn't simply by date. It was by country - he travelled everywhere. He would actually know what goes where... But my brother (who helped him the first time) might remember what to do.

Will give it a shot.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, Windows badly needs a better update mechanism. This has been a huge pain point for consumers for a long time, which often results in buying new hardware instead of updating the browser, etc.

On the other hand I think this will drive people away from Windows and towards OS X and Ubuntu.

Oh right, there is no downside to this!

<comment> ross-life > On the other hand I think this will drive people away from Windows and > towards OS X and Ubuntu.

They already pushed too far. Was a life long Windows user, used at home for gamedev and Steam, chosen at work (mainly QA) because it's what I knew extensively, VS is great and it's what users used. Was literally the only Windows user in a sea of OS X machines at some companies.

Now? All my personal and work devices run Ubuntu or Arch. My partners devices now all run Ubuntu or Arch. Projects I'm planning that were going to be "Windows first" will now be "Linux first".

Sounds silly, but I was _enjoying_ the progress Windows was making security- wise. From Vista to 7 and 7 to 8 (and even to 10) the "under-the-hood" part of Windows seemed to be making great strides in protecting the user, even if they were screwing up the UI.

But everything they've pulled with 10 have completely pushed me away from the platform. Adverts in my OS? The nagging? The "updates can be installed even if you really don't want them"? Phone-homeing I can't turn off at all with a consumer edition? I understand wanting to make it hard to turn it off so they can collect reliable stats or protect the consumer from themselves but as a technical user I want my OS to do exactly what I want it to do. MS completely killed that.

<comment><USER10> IMO Microsoft has completely pissed-away huge amount of accumulated techie- goodwill in an astonishingly short period of time.

I think it's due to how much of it really does look like malice (or at _least_ disrespect for computer-owners) rather than mere incompetence.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> As the lead developer of the Slack Windows app, this move is absolutely phenomenal for me. Win7 is a huge proportion of our support tickets and causes us no end of grief.

To put what these Windows users are doing in perspective, Windows users are holding onto an OS that was released at the same time as OS X 10.6, and not only doing it, but _demanding_ that developers support this version. If you asked any Cocoa developer to support Snow Leopard, they'd laugh you out of the room.

<comment><USER12> Windows 7 support is a critical feature of slack for me. Every version of Windows after 7 is increasingly some kind of year 2000 era flip phone OS/dark age of computers BS. It's 10 steps forward, 1000 steps back.

So what exactly do windows 7 users call in about? Is that because there is some major API difference between 7 and 8 or is does it represent people who buy computers less often?

<comment><USER11> > So what exactly do windows 7 users call in about? Is that because there is > some major API difference between 7 and 8 or is does it represent people who > buy computers less often?

Windows 7 doesn't have a notifications / toast API which means we have to implement notifications ourselves. It _also_ lets you turn off desktop composition and throw the UI into a completely different rendering path, which Electron doesn't support properly, so we then have to implement notifications _again_ in a fallback software rendering only way. It also doesn't have a spellchecking API, so we get to ship Hunspell in-box and deal with updating dictionaries, the list goes on and on

<comment><USER12> For support and/or programming (in the context of slack), is Linux generally better or worse than windows 8/10?

<comment><USER11> Linux is a mixed bag - while it's actually way easier to support in general and people write in with _way_ more detailed actionable feedback, it also has its fair share of glitches, especially around video hardware.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Here's the update:

[https://support.microsoft.com/en- gb/kb/3035583](https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/kb/3035583)

...that explains the Windows 10 update, but on my machine it just says "Install this update to resolve issues in Windows. _blah blah blah_ " which is the same boilerplate they all use. The update size is uniquely given as a range 722 KB - 821 KB, which is probably a low estimate for an OS installer. So, no indication of the magnitude of this. Since it isn't a security update, anyone with a properly-configured system (IMO) shouldn't be bothered by it. Unless Microsoft updates it to a "security update". Which seems possible.

The whole "auto update and restart" thing seemed like a _potentially_ global- scale Therac-25 style bad idea when I first heard about it on Windows XP (or whenever). But it never happened--I guess not too many critical systems use Windows. Just millions of people losing millions of hours of productivity...

<comment><USER14> That's just for the (non-removable) button in the taskbar. There are in fact a number of different updates related to the upgrade from windows 7 to windows 10.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Prompted by Windows 10 privacy issues, I switched to Mint on my laptop recently and was pleasantly surprised. I've been constantly trying to switch to Linux but having to revert because of driver incompatibility. That has completely changed in the past 3 years.

It makes my laptop feel speedy again. Before it was really slow with Microsoft sitting on top of it. I recently slapped an SSD into it and it's even better. Turned a no starter laptop into a real machine.

It's still not an operating system that can be used by new users, but I have a lot of fun with it. It helps a lot that Steam has a Linux client now and I don't play many big name titles.

Windows 10 isn't that bad if you don't mind buying a new computer, but I think it may be the bane of people like my parents who use a computer for 10 years without upgrading. You would think that with the minimal changes to the Windows kernel that the driver support wouldn't be an issue. The invasive marketing and privacy violations aren't anything new. Just more so.

<comment><USER16> I recently switched to Mint from Windows 8.1 and it's been shockingly easy. I run triple monitors at work and I was worried getting them all working was going to be a terrible experience. A coworker who runs Ubuntu offered to help me get it set up, but in the time it took for him to get a cup of coffee and come back, I had installed the driver Mint recommended and everything just worked. It runs great on my laptop too, so far I haven't had any driver issues.

Not all of my steam games run under linux but quite a few of them do and the ones I've tried so far have run just as well as they do under windows.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Dual booting with Fedora. I voluntarily upgraded the Win 7 partition to give it a whirl a while back. They said I would have 30 days to go back.

Less than 24 hours later ... Nope.

The only place I want Windows running on my personal hardware is in a VM. Done with them.

</comment><comment><USER18> I use Windows Media Center on my machine so I'll be pretty irritated if it automatically upgrades - MS removed it in Windows 10.

<comment><USER19> Why not VLC?

<comment><USER18> I think you're thinking of Media Player, not Media Center.

Media Center is a whole DVR package, consumes TV streams, TV guide data, recordings, can be connected to an Xbox 360... and so on.

<comment><USER19> Ah, gotcha.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> This is probably like having your car towed: technically there's something that says they are allowed to do it but you sure as hell don't expect it to happen, you don't want it to happen, it will cost you time and money and at the wrong time it could really screw you. Thanks, Microsoft!

</comment><comment><USER21> At some point recently windows update on windows 7 decided to change settings from "tell you about updates and you choose when to download and install them" to "I'll download everything and nag you to death with countdown timer until you update"

The _most_ infuriating thing about that being that if you turn your computer on in the morning from hibernation go make a coffee and get some breakfast, by the time you come back your computer has restarted (because apparently who cares you weren't logged in and your screen was still locked, fuck you we're forcing a restarting and you're losing any unsaved work, bad luck sucker!)

I killed the windows update service permanently it infuriated me so much.

<comment><USER22> When you say "killed permanently", do you mean more than just disabling the service, and if so, what? I have it disabled but I don't trust Microsoft not to somehow override that.

<comment><USER23> I also disabled the service "Windows Update" in services.msc.

Interesting thign happened. I stopped the service but left it on "Automatic (Delayed Start)". Came back a while later and the service was magicall restarted. Could have been anticipated by me. So I stopped the service again and set it to "Manual". Came back a while later and, you guessed it, Windows Update service was restarted. So I now set it to "deactivated". That was yesterday. I am really curoous to see if it still comes back to life.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> We've been getting a lot of calls from home clients since last Tuesday that their computer now runs Windows 10. There are still some printer and software issues, which were the reasons why they arestill running Windows 7.

</comment><comment><USER25> This happened to my co-worker just the other day. He develops native windows software so it was pretty annoying for him.

<comment><USER26> Yeah, a couple of mine had it over the weekend too. One with good results, and doesn't care. The other with a couple fails in the house that had to spend time to reinstall from scratch.

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Wouldn't the automatic upgrade mean you didn't agree to any T&C?

<comment><USER28> You did agree if you set Windows Update to automatically install updates. The upgrade to Window 10 is being treated as an "update".

<comment><USER29> Unless the auto-update terms in Windows Update expressly state that using it means you agree to any future, unknown terms that may apply to those updates, then agreeing to automatic updates would not be sufficient.

That is, unless the terms for Windows 10 are exactly the same as the version from which you are upgrading. That hardly seems likely, given that it is free and comes with new features, such as advertising, etc.

<comment><USER28> All I can tell you is that it's listed under optional updates, and it's automatically checked[0].

[0][https://imgur.com/wOO1jzz](https://imgur.com/wOO1jzz)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> uhh. Could this not set them up for a lawsuit? I mean, I assume and argument could be made that there's some liability involved in MS screws up the installation or if some program fails to continue to function. This should be fun to watch.

<comment><USER31> I just got upgraded Saturday and the EULA specifically says that you can't bring a class action lawsuit against them. They want you to try arbitration for 60 days and if that doesn't work then you can try small claims. Yeah, sure.

Anyway I had two problems afterwards.

It logged me into a TEMP account so no config changes were saved and my files appeared to be all missing. They weren't, it just the shortcuts all point to the C:\users\TEMP\ directories. There's a few fixes for that one. Mine was checking the box that stopped OneNote from auto loading at start up.

After a reboot the start menu went away. The logo button is there but the menu doesn't come up. I found a site with a few fixed and tried them all in succession. I don't know which one solved it because I only rebooted after doing all of them.

So now I have 30 days to downgrade to Win 7 or forever hold my peace.

<backspaced off rant here />

<comment><USER32> I know clickwrap EULAs have been contentious, but can a EULA for something you didn't even ask for and didn't want in the first place be forced on you against your will?

<comment><USER31> I had the option to not accept the EULA. In that case I was then free to not install Windows 10 despite it "prepping my system for the update" for an hour.

I figured any attempt at a roll back at that point would have been worse than just proceeding. =(

<comment><USER6> That's interesting. If the OS upgrades to Windows 10, does it prompt you to accept a new EULA after upgrading? If so, what does it do if you don't accept the new terms? And how can they ask you to accept terms AFTER upgrading?

<comment><USER33> The comments at [https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/49eahx/computer_up...](https://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/49eahx/computer_upgraded_to_windows_10_without_my/) say that, if you decline the EULA after installing, it rollbacks to the previously installed version.

<comment><USER6> Bloody hell. And this rollback appears to be less than reliable.

Why not ask for the acceptance and _then_ upgrade?

Do we know what data is lost when a rollback occurs?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Is there any evidence this isn't just a bug? I admin several Win7 machines at work, and haven't seen this behavior on any of them. I didn't do anything to prevent automatic updates, or otherwise disable a path to Win10 (they all have the upgrade available).

I can see how someone could accidentally install Win10, since windows update has it automatically selected, but I have yet to see a machine just restart itself and start installing Win10. The machines I have upgraded to Win10 took many clicks to actually install - I can't imagine Microsoft would intentionally let users skip the EULA at the very least.

My gut says at least half the people have accidentally initiated this update and half are experiencing a bug -- my counter anecdata says this is NOT being pushed to all Win7 users with automatic updates enabled.

</comment><comment><USER35> I hope that Microsoft don't survive their Windows 10 release...

<comment><USER36> Windows 10 was their last release.

<comment><USER35> I know that it was their latest release, if that's what you meant...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> GWX Control Panel [http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/](http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/)

Solves all W10 upgrade worries.

<comment><USER10> I'm not normally an open-source zealot, but I'd really like something a little more... auditable.

<comment><USER37> Doesn't seemed to be maintained anymore but [https://github.com/rn10950/I-Dont-Want- Windows-10](https://github.com/rn10950/I-Dont-Want-Windows-10)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> MS is getting pretty draconian with the Windows 10 shtick. I'm not sure why there's such a push, just let people buy a Windows 10 computer when the Windows 7 machines fail.

Fighting MS on this is a losing battle, all the workarounds are going to be a non-stop, futile exercise. Unless I have a specific needs for Windows, if this makes anyone uncomfortable to read (like myself)- I think this is the ideal time to jump on Mac, Linux Mint, Ubuntu Mate or Antergos.

<comment><USER39> > MS is getting pretty draconian with the Windows 10 shtick

They likely have a long term strategy around Windows 10, what it is I don't know but I know for a fact that it requires pushing W10 on as much PC as possible, whether the user wants it or not. I'm on W8. I will upgrade one day, I don't want to do it now (I'm working with an old soundcard that barely supports W8, so there is a risk with upgrading to 10), yet everyday I get a "Upgrade to 10" popup which almost tricked me into upgrading once. They are so aggressive about updating I fear this "free" upgrade might be a trap on the long run. I feel like I'm no longer in control of some software I've bought( yes, because licenses aren't free).

<comment><USER40> I recently bought a new Win10 laptop while giving up my Win7 desktop. I honestly wouldn't have if I thought I could continue getting the most out of my system (gaming and doing other fun things) well into the future.

I'm pissed off beyond belief about the egregious privacy overreach, but realized that my info is already out there, so I just need to continue taking whatever precautions I normally do and pretend like all my info is public anyway.

That said, I can only imagine that the long-term play is to one day give people a countdown on Windows 10 becoming a subscription, and you can either pay it or lose access to everything (or be severely crippled or something).

That's the only angle I can think of, and it jives with their approach to Office and everything else. They know damn well that people don't always want something new (and often that is because of conflicting interests and them pushing crapware like the privacy stuff), so they need the ability to control whether that happens or not.

I personally am holding out for now with Windows 10, but if they ever pull that move I will say to hell with it and fully switch to Ubuntu and do what I can in terms of gaming (maybe buy a Playstation).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> Calm down and relax! Microsoft knows better than you what is good for you ;-)

Honestly, I ditched Windows since XP completely in favor of Linux, and it turned out to be a very good decision.

MS' extremely unfriendly behavior to its customers is indication of desparation. WinPhone failed against iOS and Android, and PC purchases are shrinking continually. This means MS is shrinking continually, and they know it very well.

</comment><comment><USER42> What do you think about this script on Voat? : [https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510](https://voat.co/v/technology/comments/853510)

I'm really curious to know your opinion Hacker News. Is this a good way to live with Windows 7 now? It seems to be open-source, easy to apply, it disables telemetry and Windows 10 crap.

Any better alternatives?

<comment><USER43> Shutup10 and Spybot Anti-beacon

<comment><USER42> And why those?

<comment><USER44> Shutup10 gets rid of the nagware, anti-beacon stops the phone home.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I am thankful that a random Windows update broke some of our software a few weeks ago. It prompted me to disable all updates and allow only essential updates. Small business so I'm it for IT. Never heard of kbwhateveritis required to avoid the MS invasion. Thanks for breaking our system weeks ago MS!

</comment><comment><USER45> Meet the new Microsoft, same as the old Microsoft.

Seriously though, I hope they receive some major backlash for their behaviour over the last few months. It's incredibly aggressive and anti-consumer.

<comment><USER46> The old Microsoft would have been blasted into oblivion for doing this. For some reason, the "new Microsoft" is getting a free pass on behavior that would make Larry Ellison queasy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> Upgrading to Windows 10 from 7 requires a single button click after opening the upgrade reminder in the task bar.

Dismissing the upgrade reminder is impossible and requires a registry edit:

[https://support.microsoft.com/en- us/kb/3080351](https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3080351)

Microsoft is a disgusting company, and I hope they are fully aware how much social capital this has eroded.

</comment><comment><USER48> Today I woke up to this message on my Windows 8.1: [http://i.imgur.com/4jvC8Q0.png](http://i.imgur.com/4jvC8Q0.png)

They are not asking if I want to upgrade anymore, they are asking _when_ I want to upgrade :/

</comment><comment><USER49> What a coincidence - 4 days ago I disabled auto updates on Windows 7 because it would force me to restart all the time. I'm glad I did that. Forcing Win7 to Win10 Upgrade? Disgusting practice by Windows, will switch to Unix-based systems asap.

</comment><comment><USER50> Now with more ads, spyware, constant logging of everything you do to Microsoft, and telemetry!

No thanks. I guess MS wants to cede the entire high-end market to Apple and Linux and re-position themselves as a bargain basement low-end vendor of spyware ridden junk.

<comment><USER51> The high-end market is mostly gamers, which is 95%+ Windows.

<comment><USER52> Microsoft's Windows Store/UWP push has scared some game developers, most notably causing Valve to make a Linux version of Steam and their own OS. A concerted effort by the games industry could see Windows's market share fall there.

<comment><USER40> Just got my new laptop with Win10 because I'm a gamer. That was pretty much the only reason.

If they ever pull shit with Steam, are proven to have mishandled my data as part of the telemetry bullshit (well, the stuff I couldn't disable, because I spent half an hour trying to turn off all the various settings I could), or ever force Windows into a subscription model, I'm done with gaming on Windows for good and I'll suffer through the Linux gaming experience.

Hopefully by that point there will be enough weight behind it to make switching an easy choice.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> My logic: Time for another tool that goes deep in to the autorun.dll's and deletes the update prompt..... Oh wait...

</comment><comment><USER54> Funny, I've been trying to get my Windows 7 laptop to take the upgrade, but it strangely won't.

<comment><USER55> Use a disc or the Media Creation Tool (which can directly start a Windows 10 install). Both methods are much more reliable than the Windows Update method.

</comment></comment><comment><USER56> I wonder if there are pages on reddit commenting a comment page from HN...

<comment><USER57> [https://reddit.com/r/hackernews](https://reddit.com/r/hackernews)

</comment></comment><comment><USER58> Re-posting my comment from the other thread which didn't get as much attention:

I spent about 3 hours this week doing tech support for my mom over the phone because of Windows 10's aggressive upgrading behaviour.

I told her to keep her the best way to keep safe security wise is to make sure the os/browser is up to date, and because Windows 10 keeps asking to upgrade, she went ahead and did so. After upgrading to Windows 10, all network access (wired and wifi) stopped working completely. The worst part of this is that if you can't get internet, you can't even download new drivers to try and debug the problem. We tried a few things, and eventually just did a system restore back to Windows 8, but unfortunately, the system restore didn't work completely and there was more mucking around to try and get the computer into a bootable state. Then, last night, she said the heard the fan making a lot of noise, and looked down to see that Windows had gone ahead and started installing Windows 10 again. Fortunately, wired network access works now, but wifi is still broken. Hopefully Windows will push an update that fixes the wifi access soon.

Also, there seems to be a number of people here commenting very strongly in favour of Microsoft, which I find very surprising. Perhaps people from MS trying to do damage control? Some people have doubted that Windows is doing this automatically, but during the above debacle, my mother actually spent time to make sure that 'Check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them' was selected. She even sent me a screenshot asking if this would prevent Windows 10 from installing. A few hours later she had Windows 10 again.

<comment><USER59> > Perhaps people from MS trying to do damage control?

While I appreciate the rest of your comment, I personally find comment like these are obnoxious. I sincerely doubt that vote and comment brigading are anywhere near as prevalent as reddit and this community seem to so routinely imply. Perhaps I'm the naive one, but it is tiresome to so regularly see comments (especially those close to one's own personal beliefs) consistently labeled indicators of a social media PR campaign because someone _just can 't believe_ they might be genuine.

Or maybe I should get my head out of the sand, I do not know.

<comment><USER60> I'm going to make a few statements here to address the parent and children; but let me put the normal disclaimers here: I ONLY can speak for myself, I do not speak for MS or any of my coworkers.

Simply put, the sort of behavior implied (vote brigading) doesn't mesh with my understanding of how I or any of my coworker/HN reader peers tend to behave. I could be totally off the mark with this but it just doesn't mesh with the culture I've been exposed to.

More relevantly however, and more in line with how I typically approach HN threads regardless of topic, let me try and pose a more "occams razor" explanation:

MS has been gaining a lot of positive press lately. The tech community WANTS to see our biggest entities succeed and "do good". We hate seeing suggestions that a "new convert" to the good side might have changed face again. Realizing that a company can do both good and "evil" simultaneously is a degree of mental dissonance I don't often see handled "cleanly" so to say.

Long and the short; I am not happy with the forced upgrades. I am still using 7, and would be rather irked if they broke everything for the sake of forcing through content I do not want. However, I do tend to attribute much more naïve explanations for the patterns we're seeing, over some sort of PR conspiracy. There was a wonderful quote a while back, "we're not organized enough to be that evil" :) I don't mean to be any sort of MS apologist in this, my comment is entirely directed at the discussion regarding some degree of astroturfing, if I got asked about my opinions on the updates, well, that's a whole can of worms on its own and the remaining comments in the thread seem to speak to the resounding sentiment in that respect.

<comment><USER40> Out of curiosity, are you an engineer there? If so I'm wondering how close you are and how much visibility you have into the marketing and PR side of things over there.

This strikes me as the kind of thing that engineers might be kept in the dark about, but some PR agency somewhere may have outsourced something like this and done so in a way as to provide plausible deniability. A quick googling shows this wouldn't be the first time MS has resorted to astroturfing [1].

So while I don't doubt the sincerity of how you or any of your immediate coworkers/HN reader peers tend to behave, I think the facts speak a bit more clearly to the possibility of other parts of the MS organism being willing to do this sort of thing.

[1] [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome- instant&ion=1&e...](https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome- instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=microsoft%20astroturfing)

<comment><USER60> I am, yes. My visibility has shifted depending on different orgs I've been in (I've been in orgs where I'm entirely disconnected from the PR side of things, and in others where I get regular mails from the marketing teams); I read some of the links on the search you provided but they seem to denote "what I'd expect", a worst case where a vendor goes too far in accomplishing a PR objective, and while it's plausible that this is ongoing (as you say, I CERTAINLY don't know what totally distinct marketing teams on contract are doing) I'd note one thing: That in the well documented occurrences in the past, it's typically been the more "standard" sort of native advertising dark patterns that are becoming prevalent. I don't say this to excuse it in the least; but to say that I tend to see "patterns" even in the more questionable actions of a given entity, and even when I looked more deeply in said googling I didn't find many concrete occurrences of that sort of truly grassroots astroturfing. Enough accusations to raise an eyebrow for sure; but I'd point out a few things on that as well: in some of the well documented cases, MS has come forward and accepted accountability for the occurrence. While this could absolutely be a post-factum face saving, the cost/benefit of enacting those sorts of campaigns seems misaligned, at least to my eyes, that I'd be hard pressed to think of any of the Marketing/PR people I've met taking that sort of risk.

Again, there could certainly be degrees of separation, and as you accurately state I can't in any way speak on that. My main goal was just to speak to the best intentions and actions of the peers I've had the opportunity and privilege to work with.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> If you ever asked yourself how does one feel when assimilated by the Borg... now you know.

</comment><comment><USER62> Good, Windows 7 is a security problem (or will be, soon).

<comment><USER63> In what way? I've been planning to remain on Windows 7 for the foreseeable future and 7's security wasn't really on my radar.

<comment><USER64> Windows 8/10 has some newer security mitigations, so technically they are somewhat harder to exploit.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> Strangely nobody has ever caught this on video. Just a handful of anonymous people claiming "I totally didn't hit the wrong button in the UI!!"

Now, sure, I'd agree it should be harder to accidentally upgrade your PC. In particular for layman users. But I am generally skeptical that this is any more than just user error until proven otherwise.

I have a Windows 7 PC I use regularly, I too get the upgrade prompts, but it hasn't upgraded itself just as one counterpoint.

Someone needs to catch this on video.

PS - I flagged this article on purpose because I don't consider a random Reddit thread to be a legitimate source.

<comment><USER31> No, it's forced. I came home from work and there was pop-up window which I thought was the usual nag screen. It said my Windows 10 download was ready.

Except this one had a count down timer at around 54 minutes left. There was also an option "I need more time...".

I X'd the box closed and went on thinking whatever.

54 minutes later, in the middle of typing an email, the system auto rebooted and "Configuring Update for Wndows 10" screen came up.

I took pictures of it with my cell which are kind of blurry because it's hard to have a steady hand during a good WTH rage.

<comment><USER66> If that's the dialog I think it is, there should be a cancel button that would then roll back the update. Takes a good long while, and is BS of course, but would land you back where you were.

Of course, they seem to be iterating on the update dialogs. I'm not saying it's to get past those avoiding the update, but it's probably to get past those avoiding the update.

<comment><USER67> Assuming you are there to respond to the dialog.... if you aren't, then the timer will go off and it will be too late.

<comment><USER64> That happened to me. I was pushing the update a week away each time it prompted me. But at one prompt I was out in the city.

When I arrived home, the computer was rebooted and upgraded to Windows 10...

The curious thing is that I have Bitlocker on all drives, including the system one, and it asks for the password on boot. Somehow they got over that (probably temporarily saved the key somewhere).

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> This isn't news, and was announced _months_ in advance. Microsoft announced back in October that they'd upgrade Windows 10 to a "Recommended update" in February.

[http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/windows-10-upgrade-1.32965...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/windows-10-upgrade-1.3296511)

You can check in Windows Update whether or not to automatically apply Recommended updates the same way you apply Important updates. By default, it is checked. (By default, most users really _should_ upgrade to Windows 10.)

But, as with all Microsoft things, people will flip out like this wasn't announced and they were totally blindsided because everything Microsoft does is totally evil.

</comment><comment><USER68> Sorry, why is this a big deal? We've completely accepted auto updates for browsers (chrme & firefox) - years ago. Obviously better, compatibility improves and security issues are easier to push out and fix. To me the browser is as important as the OS, I spend the vast majority of my time in it.

Why should MSFT _not_ do this? It's a free update. They're not charging for it. On many aspects, it's a lot better than Windows 7/8\. Maybe not to everyone's taste, but Windows 7 is nearly 7 years old now. From what I can see it performs better on older hardware than W7.

We accept that Android fragmentation is terrible and Google should be doing more to fix it. Yet it seems the complete opposite reaction when MSFT tries to fix their desktop fragmentation.

<comment><USER69> Why is this a big deal? Why should MSFT not do this? Here are a couple of reasons why...

Perhaps the machine hardware is not Win10 compliant

Perhaps a machine hosts software that requires significant regression testing before permitting an upgrade to Win10

Perhaps the machine's software is not Win10 compatible and needs to be rewritten before a Win10 upgrade

Perhaps the machine in question has specific greenzone periods and should not be upgraded without an agreed outage schedule between IT provider and user base. (Think banking, power generation, healthcare, airline sectors, etc.)

Perhaps your Mom owns the computer and you want to personally manage the upgrade when you visit at Christmas instead of having to spend 6 hours on the phone with her.

MSFT has no idea whether or not its _SAFE_ to automatically roll out an update for their OS users. They make no effort to check hardware compliance status with all hardware manufacturers. They make no effort to check the compliance status of 3rd party software. They make no effort to ensure that critical infrastructure systems (power, health, banking) individual greenzones are followed to prevent unplanned outages.

<comment><USER70> The upgrade notification system does make the effort to check against known- bad hardware and software, including 3rd party software, and will warn and/or block the upgrade if it's known to be incompatible.

As for managed machines, most won't be eligible for the upgrade to begin with (domain joined, Windows 7 Enterprise), and the upgrade can be blocked entirely via Group Policy or WSUS. Any sensibly managed machine in the environments you mentioned won't be automatically upgraded.

Yes, the compatibility checks aren't perfect, and yes, making sure the update isn't rolled out to managed machines requires that they actually be managed, just like any other update Microsoft publish. But it's unfair to say they make 'no effort' to support these scenarios.

<comment><USER69> My small sample of machines, manufacturer says machine not compatible, MSFT still prompted me to install win10. If they are actually checking HW compatibility they are doing a shitty job. Which means they shouldn't be rolling anything out in this fashion.

On Reddit I read about medical devices getting automatically upgraded when needed for a procedure. Maybe the hospital network was badly managed but that does not excuse MSFT's auto rollout.

My point still stands that MSFT should not be automatically upgrading the OS without significant user oversight, agreement.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: What are some must-dos to maintain sanity of a UGC site - <AUTHOR>

A UGC (User Generated Content) site is as good as its C. While we provide the tagging, categorization features, but users may not abide by that, hence search may end up bringing irrelevant result. Like I can think of 'report spam' link, up/down-grade. What are some of the other basic methods of maintaining the sanity of data? (our site has title, description, tags, categorization - think youtube). <comment><USER2> Bozo filter. When you ban someone for posting crap, don't delete their crap, just flag it and only display it to that user. By giving the crap posters less feedback you reduce their ability to evolve new crap-posting abilities.

On the reverse side, you must also identify your best posters. It's easy to forget while dealing with the obvious problems with crap, but you must find the content that is highest-rated, that draws the most traffic, that most contributes to your business goals. Praise them in public. Send them swag. Make sure your customer service system highlights them, so you're responsive when they have problems. The best users are around 100x more valuable than average. Identify and cultivate them.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a wonderful point (thx Harkins!) - unfortunately spams, trolls etc have made us focus on bad guys so much that we almost forget the good guys.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I'm assuming free-form textual data here, if you're doing something more constrained (like CDDB data) this will probably not be helpful.

You can push the problem around with technical features, but I believe this is a meat-space issue and needs to be treated as such.

Hacker News (so far) is one of the best run sites I've seen in this regard. My belief is that the community is focused on a small enough segment of content that it doesn't bring in contrarian intellect points (i.e. OMG LOLCAT, political bickering black holes). Explicitly defining a charter for the site -- giving users a target to moderate to -- is probably the single best thing I can think of.

</comment><comment><USER4> User moderation is very useful, as are editors. Filtering NSFW content by tagging it and requiring users opt-in to see it makes sense. There are also copyright issues that are important. You want to make it easy and fast to identify copied material and yank it, in case of a DMCA takedown notice.

You could also let users tip content, and get the data from tipjoy as another ranking tool. Email me email@example.com for more info.

</comment><comment><USER5> automate it, suspend posts that gets tagged a lot with "spam!" then give the original poster ability to dispute. It'll cut down the effort on your part big time, since spammers most likely won't bother appealing</comment>


Smart TV Made Real by Amazon - <AUTHOR> https://mondaynote.com/smart-tv-made-real-by-amazon-5b46cd3ac2b6 <comment><USER2> Only problem is, the Fire ecosystem is a huge bag of the lowest performance worst hardware you can imagine, with the worst apps on top of it.

If you forcibly package dog poop with each tv just to get that much dog poop forcibly installed at all the hundreds of millions of homes, then people are only going to associate you with dog poop.</comment>


Is Online Education More Effective Than Traditional Learning? - <AUTHOR> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/online_education_more_effective_traditional_learning.php <comment><USER2> A friend of mine, a college teacher whose specialty is online education, says that one thing that makes a forum/discussion board more effective than a traditional classroom setting is increased student participation. Students are more likely to voice dissenting opinion in a virtual classroom than a physical one.

</comment><comment><USER3> It all depends on the student and the subject, but in many cases online classes can be more effective if they tailor the lesson to the individual student. In large classrooms, there is a tendency to teach to the middle of the class, leaving high-achieving students bored, and low-achieving students lost. Correctly structured, online classes can teach to each student's level.

<comment><USER4> I agree, it is better for learning independent thinking and really might be closer to how one must learn in a workplace environment. There is the social and teamwork that might be missed a bit but also it teaches how to virtually be social and a team member. Again, more closely aligned with real-world type work where it is largely independent and you must learn to virtually communicate well to succeed. Many times clients are nowhere near you and all they know of you is a virtual representation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I know people who cheat like hell with their online courses. Like byoung2 said, I think it depends largely on the student.

</comment><comment><USER6> is online education more effective than traditional learning?

No.

online classes supplement traditional classroom interaction, it doesn't replace it.

</comment><comment><USER7> We all know the reputation onlines have....</comment>


Google X Lab proves that the Internet is really powered by cats - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2012/06/26/google-x-lab-proves-that-the-internet-is-really-powered-by-cats/

<comment><USER2> Can we change the title to something more serious to reflect how truly groundbreaking this research could be?

</comment><comment><USER3> The research is interesting, the article is... drivel and just pasting internet memes on top of research and cherry picking one mediocre result from some really interesting ones.

Google found nothing of the like. Google trained a neural net to recognize things with no prior knowledge. "Amazingly", among the things it learned to recognize was cats, but not even as well as other things like people. So this whole article just missed the point and tries instead to cash in on an internet meme instead of reporting.</comment>


Changing Careers at 31 - <AUTHOR> http://mattdeboard.net/2011/06/17/career-change-in-your-30s-is-possible/

<comment><USER2> Matt might be a little out of touch with the local IT community. Working for a small consulting group in Indianapolis, I've been pushed into Python and Django work more than once, and I was certainly not looking for it. I blundered into it, unavoidably.

Contrary to the stereotype you see on TV, Indiana is a predominately urban state. Parks and Recreation's "Pawnee" couldn't be further from typical.

The central metro area, the Carmel-Indianapolis MSA, is two million people. The part of the Chicago MSA that lies in Indiana is another half million. The Fort Wayne, Evansville, and Muncie-Anderson MSAs are good-sized cities in their own right. Needless to say, in those millions of people, there are many, _many_ python/django users.

You might say this hit a nerve for me. I feel the need to shill for my home state:

      - Indiana's major industries are manufacturing and logistics, not agriculture.

      - Technology work is readily available, in a number of industries.

      - Indianapolis routinely attracts technology startups.

      - Indiana is home to two major research universities and many large corporations.

In short, it looks a lot more like the east coast than the plains. It's a small state, but it's relatively densely populated. There's no shortage of tech jobs, only a shortage of tech workers. You may take a 25-40% pay cut versus the coasts, but the money goes a heck of a lot further in a place where a detached home costs <$100k.

<comment><AUTHOR> hapless, I think you drew conclusions about my remarks far beyond what I intended.

There are a couple of Python foundries in Indy that I know of, SixFeetUp and my current employer. SixFeetUp uses Plone for their work (and are extremely active in the Plone community), and of the guys I've met they're pretty damn smart. They're actually looking for a Python dev as well.

All that said, my impression of Indy is that it's overwhelmingly .NET- oriented, with a side of Ruby. I'm not sure what prompted you to launch into a general multi-pronged defense of Indiana based off a couple lines of my blog post. If you took anything I wrote as "all the programmers in Indiana suck", you're wrong. The devs at my shop are clearly talented and smart, and I love picking their brains. Same for many of the programmers I've met at meetups.

We both know Indy isn't a tech mecca. That doesn't mean there aren't smart & talented people here, or that there aren't companies doing exciting, interesting things. But, from my observations and conversations, the companies doing exciting and interesting things are almost certainly not doing them with Python.

Is that observation wildly different than reality? If so, please let me know because I'd love to get more plugged in.

Sorry that you got offended; I certainly didn't intend that.

<comment><USER2> I consciously over-reacted, Matt. By its nature, I expect HN to be a predominately coastal audience. I came away from your blog post with a bad impression of Indiana, and I wanted to get in front of that problem in the HN thread. If it had been inside baseball, a piece written for an audience of midwesterners, I would not have needed a proactive defense.

I agree with your impression of Indy as "overwhelmingly .NET-oriented." Microsoft has a huge market presence at every level. Nevertheless, in my experience, python is at least as common as any other non-Microsoft stack.

<comment><AUTHOR> Come now. Ruby is extremely dominant here.

Also, Indiana is boring, has poor infrastructure, and any special events that would lure young people are concentrated almost exclusively in Broad Ripple/Mass Ave/etc. Mass transit is a joke. I mean, really, bus stops in a ditch?

I was born and raised in Indiana; Greenwood no less. After high school I left and lived all over the world. Indiana is bland and very boring. It has very little in common with the East coast unless you're talking about places like Wilmington NC or Jacksonville, FL. Oh, and the utterly shit weather.

I still don't get your defensiveness. I moved back for cheap schoolin' since I'm still an in-state resident. It's fine if you're ready to settle down and play some golf, mow the lawn, etc. But in the context of my blog post, where businesses are doing exciting things with Python, Indiana is dead in those terms.

<comment><USER3> Ruby seems to be dominant everywhere - but that might just be because they have better marketing. Or, maybe, they just have louder supporters.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google at NIPS 2017 - <AUTHOR> https://research.googleblog.com/2017/12/google-at-nips-2017.html <comment><USER2> Facebook: [https://research.fb.com/facebook-research-at- nips-2017/](https://research.fb.com/facebook-research-at-nips-2017/)

Deepmind: [https://deepmind.com/blog/deepmind-papers- nips-2017/](https://deepmind.com/blog/deepmind-papers-nips-2017/)

<comment><USER3> Don't forget MS Research: [https://www.microsoft.com/en- us/research/event/microsoft-res...](https://www.microsoft.com/en- us/research/event/microsoft-research-nips-2017/)

 _Edit_

And IBM Research: [https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2017/12/ibm-research- ai-n...](https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2017/12/ibm-research-ai-nips2017/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I had planned to attend, but NIPS "sold out" within a couple weeks before I could make arrangements. NIPS growth has been absolutely tremendous. Being unable to register made it impossible for my lab to submit workshop papers. One of my students got a travel award to attend a Women in Machine Learning Workshop, but only the tutorial day was open for booking.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like next year's venue in Montreal is any bigger based on the statistics I looked up.

<comment><USER5> There are slots devoted specifically to folks who get workshop papers in. I registered a couple days ago.

To be fair, I agree NIPS registration is getting a little out of hand, but we should get the facts straight.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> For those who haven't seen yet, Intel is hosting a NIPS 2017 party called "Let the Gradient Flo", with Flo Rida performing.

Got to be close to peak hype.

<comment><USER7> Someone calculate the optimal crowd location to catch one of the chains he always tosses to the audience.

<comment><USER8> O_O that would make my year. #blessed

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If you want to ask questions/add comments to the papers being presented, the Fermat's Library team set up a page for that [http://fermatslibrary.com/nips](http://fermatslibrary.com/nips)

</comment><comment><USER6> Does anyone have the correct link for the reviews? The one on the page for each paper doesn't seem correct.

</comment><comment><USER10> Anyone at TITS right now? :) Helped set up all day.

<comment><USER11> This comment seems to have been downvoted and then flagged, but a reminder that TITS (Transformationally Intelligent Technologies Symposium) is a real, if humorous, sister conference of NIPS: [http://www.tits.ai](http://www.tits.ai)

<comment><USER12> Really? That's a terrible name. Even if it's just making fun of NIPS (which probably should have changed its name years ago)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Who's going?</comment>


Katrina's Silver Lining: The School Choice Revolution in New Orleans - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P12pgeV8ZQM <comment><USER2> Now if this can just be replicated in more places, we may get a better school system. I'd bet though, that the teacher's union is the greatest opponent to this type of thing.

<comment><USER3> The teachers unions hate school choice. They managed to kill the program in DC even though parents were really happy with the results.

<comment><USER4> Teachers unions hate segregated schools.

"School choice" is just the latest mask the right spin doctors have cooked up to dress up school segregation in.

<comment><USER3> It's mostly minorities demanding, and benefiting from School Choice. If it's segregation, it has a funny way of showing it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Any reform involving private schools in the US needs to be wary of its effect on ideological and cultural divides. We already prefer to live near like- minded people, it's not a stretch to assume we'd send our kids to like-minded schools.

To be more specific, we don't want our school system to become a proxy for culture wars - individual schools marketing themselves to parents as a place which builds proper (liberals|conservatives|tea partiers|greens|etc).

No matter what shape reform takes, society needs to make sure its people get a well rounded education.

</comment><comment><USER6> If anyone wants to discuss startup ideas around schools and school choice please let me know.

</comment><comment><USER4> That's not a silver lining. That's textbook "Shock Doctrine" straight out of Naomi Klein's book.

Run over all resistance to right wing extremist ideas when the citizens are still reeling from a disaster and are too stunned about a child being dead or their house being gone to be thinking about advancing political agendas.

<http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine></comment>


Ask HN: Looking for resources or people who've implemented Bezos' API Mandate - <AUTHOR> The API mandate was something Bezos institute in the early days of Amazon to force all small teams to be more collaborative in a predictable way (see https://www.cio.com/article/3218667/have-you-had-your-bezos-moment-what-you-can-learn-from-amazon.html).
I love the idea but am curious how it falls apart in practice or how people have actually implemented it in non-technical teams.
If you have resources or if YOU have seen this in action, I'd love to interview you for a blog post or essay! <comment><USER2> Clickable link: [https://www.cio.com/article/3218667/have-you-had-your- bezos-...](https://www.cio.com/article/3218667/have-you-had-your-bezos-moment- what-you-can-learn-from-amazon.html)</comment>


China says military taking lead with game-changing naval weapon - <AUTHOR> https://qz.com/1513577/china-says-military-taking-lead-with-game-changing-naval-weapon/ <comment><USER2> "fully independent intellectual property," rather than designs copied from other nations. It cited a report that appeared Wednesday on China's CCTV.

They really felt the need to say this?</comment>


GoWalla Founder discuss battle w/FourSquare & Facebook - <AUTHOR> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGVp7XoYRaU Great interview with founder of GoWalla on the value of product design, FourSquare's success, integrating with the "enemies" and Facebook. <comment><USER2> He talks a lot about Austin and creating a company culture there. There's been a lot of talk about NYC vs. Silicon Valley, but great companies can happen in more than two cities (Living Social in D.C., Gowalla in Austin, Mahalo in L.A., etc.). Seems like many people are talking about the perks of starting outside of the Valley more and more as it becomes a little easier to do so over time.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's a good thing to point out... first guest we've had from Austin and he make a ton of great points on why it's a great place to put your company.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This was a great show to watch live. Liked the discussion on creating a startup outside of the Silicon Valley bubble, building on top of the Facebook and Foursquare platform, and creating great company culture.

<comment><AUTHOR> For those who want to watch live, the show is taped on Tuesday and Friday at 1PM pacific time.the show can be seen live:[http://www.thisweekin.com/livehttp://www.ustream.tv/thisweek...](http://www.thisweekin.com/livehttp://www.ustream.tv/thisweekin)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I give it 2-3 years before both of these companies start losing a massive amount of members, and people just stop checking in...about the same time when the global consciousness realizes social media was a fun game but that its time to grow up.

</comment><comment><USER5> Extra interesting interview since Gowalla just integrated Foursquare (!) Josh explains why he did that -- the 'turn around and hug the bear that's chasing you' move.</comment>


Linkedin Biggest Problem: A tale of bad design - <AUTHOR> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/linkedin-failed-search-javier-arce <comment><USER2> Possibly somebody realized that search ought to be a premium feature. Chances are that would be working on a new "plan" that one'd need to subscribe to in order to use operators in search.

</comment><comment><USER3> meta: please use the original title in submissions, especially if the original title contains more information than your edited one: [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

article: "dumbing down" of search features seems to be a common pattern sadly. Especially for cases where it triggers notifications, like saved search on e.g. EBay, good filtering is great to find the interesting stuff. But apparently to few people use it to support it? Or is it a scale thing, complex queries being noticably more expensive to execute?</comment>


Simulating Hydraulic Erosion - <AUTHOR> https://jobtalle.com/simulating_hydraulic_erosion.html <comment><USER2> Chaim Gingold (one of the developers of Spore) made "Earth: A Primer", a cool interactive educational simulation science book. It's a live earth simulation sandbox that teaches about plate tectonics, volcanos, erosion, hydrology, water cycles, climatology, rain shadows, and other cool stuff, and was inspired by Neil Stephenson's young lady's illustrated primer, but on a somewhat different physical scale:

Earth Primer

[https://www.earthprimer.com/](https://www.earthprimer.com/)

Experimental Gameplay Workshop 2015: Earth Primer

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtsf3nRFfwk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtsf3nRFfwk)

>As part of the Experimental Gameplay Workshop for GDC 2015, Chaim Gingold presents Earth Primer, an app that's a 'science book for playful people.' As the description of the experience from the ex-Spore programmer explains: "Visit volcanoes, glaciers, sand dunes. Play with them, look inside, and see how they work. The forces of nature are at your fingertips."

The 'Sandbox' on the Earth Primer app fosters creativity.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8lqOj_JMU4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8lqOj_JMU4)

>I took this video of myself fiddling with the differing features of the 'Sandbox' on the Earth Primer app. 'Sandbox' ultimately fosters creativity in students as they create their own, completely unique, landscapes using the technical capabilities that they have developed throughout the initial stages of the app.

<comment><AUTHOR> That looks so interesting, thanks for sharing!

<comment><USER2> Chaim's amazing, and Earth Primer is one of his finest pieces of work, inspired by other simulation games like SimCity, SimEarth, and Spore. Check out his Experimental Gameplay Workshop talk and demo -- he shows it in action and tells about how Earth Primer is an example of a genre of educational simulation software that combine telling, showing, and doing. He's currently finishing up a book about the history of SimCity and computer simulations.

[https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaim-gingold- aa98bb3/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaim-gingold-aa98bb3/)

Chaim Gingold

Projects and clients include Spore, EA/Maxis, Earth: A Primer, Valve, UCSF Medical School, and Linden Lab. My expertise and interests include authoring tools, tangible computing, prototyping, simulation, and play. Design lead for Spore Creature Creator. Freelancing and open to the right longer term fit.

Currently focused on finishing a book for MIT Press on the history of SimCity and computer simulation. I'm doing a little bit of consulting, and will have more bandwidth beginning around mid-2020, when the manuscript should be complete.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Coll simulation! I'm looking for any pointers to noise or other generative methods which looks like eroded terrain from the get-go, without the cost of simulating the erosion process. Any tips appreciated.

<comment><AUTHOR> There are tricks to do it, I described some at the end of this blog post: [https://jobtalle.com/layered_voxel_rendering.html](https://jobtalle.com/layered_voxel_rendering.html)

\- If you raise all height values to a power, you get creases in the terrain that are generated by erosion in real life.

\- If you raise all terrain values under a height just above sea level to a power, then you get beach like erosion, so flat areas will form along the shore.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is topical - I'm currently working on an uplift/erosion simulation with Unity/C#. I'll be curious to try this algorithm out. I'm using the Microsplat asset to set the terrain splats based on steepness and altitude.

I'm currently using diamond-square to generate the mountains, and it looks good, but my erosion algorithms tended to look off.

There's a fascinating world of compute shaders with Unity that would push this onto the GPU, but I don't know if I'll get that far with this project.

Thanks for sharing!

<comment><AUTHOR> This specific implementation won't easily work on the GPU, it's mostly the grid based ones that are easy to parallelize. You could even stick to common fragment shaders if you wanted to port that to the GPU.

Diamond square should be good enough for initial terrain, but I'd keep it smooth; let the erosion take care of the details.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> If the author's reading, I seem to remember a scientific american article on erosion, though I don't know what kind of erosion (presumably water) or when it was published. FYI.</comment>


Show HN: Swindler – OS X window manager framework in Swift - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/tmandry/Swindler <comment><USER2> I've always had issues with Mac WMs in the past. They either promise too many features and end up being buggy (because they didn't take the time to solve the problems that Swindler does first) or they're too simple and don't let me do what I want to do.

This promises to solve a lot of the problems I've encountered in the more advanced WMs and might actually make a sophisticated WM on OS X possible.

Really interested to see what WMs get built with a framework like Swindler.

</comment><comment><USER3> Hey tmandry :)

Looks fun, I hope we'll see a Hammerspoon module for Swindler at some point :D

<comment><AUTHOR> I hope so too!</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Could you 3d print 1950's car? - <AUTHOR>

If you could scan all the parts to a 1950's American car model, say in Cuba, would it be possible to 3d print a full-size functional car using the steel sintering printers?
If not, how much extra work would you estimate to adapt the design to make it 3d printable?
I am especially interested in a fully functional car, not just a display piece, but one that you can drive for decades.
And, of course the corollary is: Could 3d sintering of new parts help keep Cuba's stock of 1950's automobiles running for another 50 years? <comment> xkcd-sucks It's more cost effective to hire a bunch of Cuban machinists to maintain the old cars/build new copies of old cars. If you need to make the project flashy they can get augmented reality welding masks or whatever.

DM(L)S is good for small complicated parts, but for large pieces/large scale manufacturing it's not cost effective (or easy to get the right material properties/do quality control!)

<comment><AUTHOR> It's the building of new cars that I am after. These cars have been tested in service for 58 years which is more than any other kind of car. Presumably the Cubans have made some modifications and improvements as well.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> It's a big idea with a huge addressable market potential-- think every car make going back to the Model T.

Here's an interesting article from the recent Detriot autoshow> [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/business/a-3-d-printed- car...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/16/business/a-3-d-printed-car-ready- for-the-road.html?_r=0)

</comment><comment><USER3> Probably, but not all of it. You've got engine bearings and cylinder liners with special compounds and tight tolerances.

It might be easier to print forms for pressing/hammering body panels and plugs for molds to cast parts.

I also don't know if I would totally trust a 3d printed frame

<comment><AUTHOR> Since 3d sintering used metal powder it may be possible to do special alloys as well. I agree that the end solution may be a hybrid one with d printed parts from different materials assembled together.

Also, as you point out a lot of testing would be needed for parts that are exposed to constant stress such as the frame, axles and so on.</comment></comment>


Mowser Founder Says Mobile Web Is Dead. It's The Opposite: The Mobile Web Was Born Only Yesterday - <AUTHOR> http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/04/15/mowser-founder-says-mobile-web-is-dead-its-the-opposite/ <comment><USER2> Sadly, those aren't opposites.</comment>


Ask HN: Is HN slow for you lately?  Or even not responding? - <AUTHOR>

For the past month or so, HN has been getting slower and slower.  Do you experience that?  A few minutes ago it was not even responding. <comment><USER2> Anyone else feel the site is getting too self referential? I noticed the lag as well, but is this worthy of a devoted thread taking up space on the first page?

The recent surge in self referential threads has felt Reddit-esque.

<comment><USER3> I completely agree. It's been getting that way for too long, and it's half the reason I check the site less frequently lately. I don't need to see a Happy New Year post here. It's cliche and unnecessary.

Polls about which text editor people use are the same, because they're just going to be repeated by newbies every few months.

My opinion is that self-posts should be on a separate page, by themselves.

<comment><USER4> I think the reason you get so many repeated posts from newbies, is that HN does not have a search feature. I think simplly adding a google search to HN would likely cut down on this issue.

<comment><USER5> <http://searchyc.com/>

<comment><USER6> SearchYC is often _really_ slow, at least for me. The page loading times are on the order of tens of seconds. HN needs its own minimalist search engine designed to search for submissions.

<comment><USER7> I do find it very useful, though. I hope the guys behind it will get around to making it faster some time.

<comment><USER8> I'm working on a solution for this, but ultimately it comes down to hosting costs. SearchYC is currently hosted on a cheap-ish virtual server whose costs come out of my pocket each month. I can't justify spending more money on this project, given my personal financial constraints.

Traffic has been steadily increasing, and quite simply, the system can't handle the load at peak usage. I am, however, working to resolve some of these issues, but it may still be awhile before you see any improvements.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> The computation for the orange usernames was destroying performance. Not directly, but because it caused a lot of stuff to get loaded from disk that would not otherwise have been. So I've temporarily turned the feature off till I can write a more efficient version.

<comment><USER10> Do you mind posting the current code for it? I'm sure some of us would love to give optimization a shot.

<comment><USER11> Optimizing a program via messageboard would be like writing a program by mail.

<comment><USER10> Or like a programming competition.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> PG: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=468585>

Maybe that'll help.

 _Edit: Paul's post here made that link irrelevant._

</comment><comment><USER12> It crashes every couple of hours and then takes a few seconds to minutes to come back up.

I've just been playing around with the source code to see if I could figure out why it would lose the port, but the only thing I can think of is if the whole mzscheme process dies, otherwise it would just hang while trying to connect and it doesn't do that.

<comment><USER9> It's running out of memory. The half million or so of HN comments and stories no longer all fit in memory at once. This is not in itself a problem. We only load stuff as needed, and only crawlers ever look at the older stuff. But it does mean that eventually (currently after a day or so) we run out of space and the server crashes and restarts. I'm working on a less crude version of garbage collection.

<comment><USER12> It's a great scalability test then! Memory is cheap, so that should not be a really big issue then, 32G of ram in a server is nothing special these days. Unless of course you're already maxed out, then it is a different issue.

How big is the working set of HN ?

<comment><USER9> We're maxed out on the current server.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Yes. In fact, I noticed problems increasing around the time of PG's 2009-01-15 "Faster" news.

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly. It was not faster for me but slower. I didn't report it though, because my own connection was unstable at the time (I was playing with asterisk and my LAN).

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I tried to respond to you, but it 404'd you which was ironic. Yes, it does seem a bit janky today.

</comment><comment><USER15> Yes, that has been occurring frequently for me.

Many times when it hangs for me, I seem to get the "static" parts of the page (title, upper bar) and as soon as the dynamic parts would be expected to load it hangs or times out or goes very slowly.

</comment><comment><USER16> Yes. This morning around 9 or 10 (eastern) it was slow -- took many tens of second for indivual links or the main page to come up.

But it seems to be recent -- I can't recall it happening before this week.

</comment><comment><USER17> Yes, sometimes it doesn't load, shows a blank page. I wonder if it's seeing malware from my machine, but clearly not given other eyewitness accounts.

</comment><comment><USER18> Yes it was "dead" for me for a few minutes just now

</comment><comment><USER19> I've had trouble when I clicked on 'submissions' for a while, and now even 'threads' is getting pretty slow.

</comment><comment><USER20> The "threads" page is very slow for me but the front page is actually faster than it was a few weeks ago.

</comment><comment><USER21> It's the orange names :)

Yes, I've noticed a lot of slowdown as well, primarily when viewing comments.

</comment><comment><USER22> It's seems plenty fast to me. I'm on slow connection and I get snappy page loads.

</comment><comment><USER23> the site feels like it's slowing down a lot, and this is even after the highlight name feature was removed. you guys read what happened when google made the tweaks to display more results right?

</comment><comment><USER24> Yes, not responding at random times.

</comment><comment><USER25> Nope, it's working fine towards me.

</comment><comment><USER26> I haven't had any trouble with it.

</comment><comment><USER6> Dear everyone:

Stop meta-referencing - go make something.

</comment><comment><USER27> yup, did not load for 20 minutes just now

</comment><comment><USER28> Yes, mainly when viewing my profile page.

</comment><comment><USER29> ARC doesn't scale!</comment>


Live Streaming from Anonymous protests in San Francisco #optBART - <AUTHOR> http://arabcrunch.com/2011/08/live-streaming-from-anonymous-protests-in-operation-bart-in-san-francisco-optbart.html <comment><AUTHOR> 2 live feeds are up now</comment>


Up5k_basic - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/emeb/up5k_basic/blob/master/README.md <comment><USER2> For years I've been thinking about building a game involving 6502 programming. Something along the lines of you're stranded on a spaceship, all the critical systems have failed, and you have a pile of 6502 processors. You need to start by keeping yourself from freezing to death by building some code that keeps the environmental systems running, then you move into growing food, and ultimately into controlling the ships propulsion, communications, and navigation systems. All with programming.

Then I think that I'd be the only one that would want to play that, and shelve the idea.

Then I see something about people being interested in 6502 stuff, and think that maybe I'm not so crazy...

<comment><USER3> Did you see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0x10c](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0x10c) ? It was IIRC more like a 68k than a 6502.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Cute project. I have a real Z80 plugged into an Arduino mega, driven by software and running an old BASIC implementation written in Z80 assembly.

It is a lot of fun to hack on this kind of systems, and with simple shields available online you don't even have to solder if you don't want to.

e.g. [http://www.8bitforce.com/projects/retroshield/](http://www.8bitforce.com/projects/retroshield/)

<comment><USER5> The 68000 is also an excellent choice for these. There's even 8bit bus variants, and some howebrew computers[0] exist using it.

[0] [https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:ecb:mi...](https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:ecb:mini-68k:start)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> It is remarkable that the project uses the open FPGA toolchain (icestorm+yosys+nextpnr).</comment>