Ask HN: What would you work on, if you had enough free time? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> As phrased, this is a nebulous question.

If I had 'enough' free time, I'd find a way to make people pay the costs of their actions or choices, regardless of where they land in the social/economic hierarchy.

Too many people who do bad things get away with them, and too few who do good are rewarded.

<comment><USER3> This is a concerning comment. Are you thinking about doing anything which may cause harm to yourself or others?

Sorry if that sounds cliche or something but if you find yourself _overly_ concerned with retribution then any action you take is likely to cause more harm to yourself and your loved ones than anyone from which you extract retribution.

Please feel free to discuss this with someone you trust or failing that I'm here.

<comment><USER3> After your update, this comment feels out-of-place, but (while I contemplated deleting it) I feel like I should leave it here...just in case.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Learning as many languages to B2 level as possible and maintaining that level as needed. B2 is the level where you "can interact with a degree of fluency and spontaneity that makes regular interaction with native speakers quite possible without strain for either party." [1].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages#Common_reference_levels)

<comment><USER5> Yup, same here. Although this is definitely something you can do in your free time. I find too, that there is a cap to the number of hours or minutes you can spend working on a language per day. Kind of like working out a muscle. Of course, actually being in the country you will go past this limit out of necessity and still thrive.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I still want to do a story generator. Something that just creates a world, creates characters, creates stories between them. And from all this generates history.

Possibly with a little guidance and balancing from a human input. I'm thinking they would be useful as an assistant GM in tabletop games. Just randomly generate a character on the fly, based on existing information, but it won't be as visionary as a human would.

<comment><USER7> Sounds like you should try Dwarf Fortress!

<comment><USER6> Too complex. It builds worlds well but takes too long to build stories.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Write a native Slack client for OS X which has identical functionality to the official version but doesn't chew through CPU cycles like they're going out of fashion. I would call it "Slick".

<comment><USER4> Please do this! I believe there are probably undocumented APIs though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'd start with studying more math. So many other interesting doors open up as a result of better math skills. Plus it's just gratifying for its own sake; feels like getting a deeper glimpse into the structure of the universe....

</comment><comment><USER10> Scientific publishing has a deep problem right now with papers being published with data, algorithms, and/or code being proprietary. In addition but not always related, there is the problem of reproducing results in papers. From bad data to crafting results to have p be under 5% causes headaches for scientists and in general creates an ecosystem of bad science.

If I had enough time, I'd like to do two things:

1) Create a third party rating system where we attempt to rate the quality of the paper based on openness, reproducibility, who funded the research, data quality, etc. The hope is that researchers will not look for papers in their favorite journals, but refine their search to only quality papers.

2) In a similar vain to the above, have a company that does nothing but tries to reproduce experiments in papers. I think this would be a ton of fun and provide great value to the world. Where funding would come from however is unknown...

<comment><USER11> Are you familiar with the Center for Open Science? [http://cos.io](http://cos.io)

<comment><USER10> Nope, but now I'm interested. Thanks!

<comment><USER11> No problem.

I was a very early employee (first dev hire) and still keep up with a lot of the employees and alumni. Let me know if I can answer any questions :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'd love to work professionally doing music production, composition, and sound engineering, especially for films and video games. I also like doing music transcription and transposition because I have a decent ear and use it to learn a lot of the music that I play (ps I'm a classically trained pianist of over 20 years).

Personally, I'd like to be in better shape. I'm not in horrible shape but I definitely do not have the time currently to undertake any sort of consistent exercise routine.

<comment><USER13> you don't have 40 minutes a day for 3 days out of the week? That's all the exercise-time it takes to get in great "athletic" shape. With visible results in only a few months to half a year (you may or may not be where you want to be at that time, but you will see results and progress in the mirror)

the rest is nutrition.

<comment><USER12> I commute an hour both ways, work 9-10 hours, and have a young child who has sports on the weekends. I also have a spouse with whom I would like to spend time. I also need to eat and sleep.

So, no, currently I don't have that time available.

<comment><USER13> your situation is not all that different from many others who are making it right now.

One hack that's very popular is waking up, eating a quick high-energy snack such as a banana (would be enough energy to get through a 40 minute workout), and then taking a shower in the gym (and putting on your work clothes there) instead of at home. You can keep a locker to make it a very comfortable process.

There's a few other adjustments that make a big difference if it's something you want to accomplish, but I'd have to know more about you. But the main message is that it's doable, your situation is really not as unique or limiting as you think it may be, and many others in your situation are doing it, without killing themselves in the process.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Systematize online business creation. For example, if you have an idea for a product, it helps you raise money, develop prototypes, find manufacturer, build ecommerce site, do fulfillment, and online marketing.

Similar for sass.

</comment><comment><USER15> I would continue working on my pet project, [http://walks.io](http://walks.io)

<comment><USER16> What city is this gor? London?

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I've been trying to work on this for years but never had enough time and always lost steam. So here goes:

I want to build a markdown editor that's built for writer powerusers. My idea was that it'd function as a "writing IDE" with some of the following features:

1\. storing metadata about a markdown file using the MOML[1] format

2\. ability to quickly search through an entire project (a book, blog posts for a site, etc.)

3\. plugin support (such as for spell-checking, grammar-checking)

4\. auto-detecting character/scene/location names and linking them together (eg. if a character named "John" shows up, you can hover over them to see other places they're at)

5\. robust project structure -- ability to separate story from research from character/location descriptions

6\. export using pandoc into epub/mobi/html/whatever format

7\. despite all the features -- it's all plain markdown so you can sync it via dropbox/drive/onedrive/git

8\. ability to run specific commands on the text you're editing. Similar to how in VS Code you can run format or other commands on the current code file.

9\. clean/empty interface

10\. autosave to temp location in case of a crash

I've already started on this and have a functional version of it called OMEN[2] and have a simple design up on my blog [3].

And yeah...I wrote half a book on my OMEN prototype. I had to switch when I realized that I didn't have autosave...and didn't have the Ctrl+S shortcut implemented yet.

[1] [https://github.com/AntJanus/MOML](https://github.com/AntJanus/MOML) [2] [https://github.com/AntJanus/omen](https://github.com/AntJanus/omen) [3] [https://antjanus.com/blog/dev-updates/dev- update-1/](https://antjanus.com/blog/dev-updates/dev-update-1/)

My other project would be a game I've been designing for a while. It's like Diablo I mixed with Stardew Valley. Eg. your objective is to crawl through a dungeon but it's not as serious/dark and has a crafting/home aspect to it. I've worked up a game design, character design, etc. just never had time to build it.

</comment><comment><USER18> If I had enough time, I would start a software design company focusing primarily on disabilities. All the current accessibility features are afterthoughts.

<comment><USER19> My thoughts were similar, make tutorials/guides on how to make the web easy to use by those who have disabilities.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Honestly? Pretty much everything. And thus in effect I get nothing done in my current level of free time as I'm jumping back and forth between dozens of fun projects.

I'm aware this may not be a satisfying answer, but it's the truth, for better or for worse.

<comment><USER21> It's satisfying for me, it's an honest answer, and as good as any other.

With enough free time there wouldn't be much need for a direction. And after a while I would probably figure out something I liked doing more than other things.

Only issue is that in my eyes, enough is probably pretty close to immortality. Largely because I would like to understand the breathd of the human condition, and how language makes us think differently. That probably requires getting to native speaking ability in maybe 100's of languages, and also the patience to wait for the likely needed cognitive augmentation to be able to do that.

I would also very much like to visit a few stars and nebulae, which could take a while.

If I only had a couple of decades or so, I might take a stab at building tools to make programming the job it should be, but isn't now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> Definitely this (AGPL): I heavily use a tool I've mentioned before, which I wrote (after trying org-mode, collapsible outlines in other tools, etc). It uses postgres, and I hope that "sharing" data exchange features are coming (though it already does export to org-mode-like text, and to html). Best code is that in github, though a downloadable .jar is available. Currently keyboard and desktop-only (text-oriented). The most efficient/effective thing I have found for notes/lists/details of all kinds, and should be easy to learn to use, as all the essentials are on the screen. There is a tutorial.

[updated, to add:] Part of the eventual purpose of the tool is to help individuals and mentors via maturity models that apply more generally to life before getting into any particular topic. That could easily be misunderstood, and there is more about that at the web site (below). Part of the idea is to help in the development/growth of self and others -- skills, knowledge, positive character traits, anything good -- in any area of life that one chooses, so we can have good goals instead of trying to make life seem fulfilling with empty searching for more pleasure/power/attention.

By marking things done or "archived", it also provides a journal feature or personal log, of entries created or archived in any date range (defaulting to "yesterday and so far, today", to help with daily standup reporting).

[http://onemodel.org](http://onemodel.org)

Feedback welcome. Thanks.

</comment><comment><USER23> I do a lot of music right now, because I feel like I have a whole separate emotional energy reserve for that.

If I had more free time though I'd like to think I would work more on the browser I've been writing along with other small side projects (d&d charecter sheet validator, open street map renderer etc.) and maybe try to teach myself more math.

I'd also spend more time at art museums and hanging out with my friends though which I'd argue is at least equally important but probably more important.

</comment><comment><USER24> \- A social news aggregator avoiding machine learning and democracy/main- stream. Like a better twitter, but focusing on links.

\- finally learn data science (and more python along with it)

</comment><comment><USER25> Oh man, so much. This side project that has been perpetually at the back of my mind [1], spend more time biking and kayaking w/ the kids, maybe take up FPV drone racing.

[1] [https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQw1TPPvVvMu3Lee...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQw1TPPvVvMu3LeepYOrAArZ_TjvOXi20rLQcgY6yUGaEcrY4pFm_B8AsblNx8GnIuntS5v6m9-og4C/pub)

<comment><USER26> Love this idea. I think the next level would be to pool together different people's uncommonly used items (e.g. camping tent) to let other people in their community "borrow" them.

What's stopping you from working on this, just out of interest?

<comment><USER25> Hey thanks! I like it too because it's something I would definitely use. In the little bit of market research I've done (basically just asking a few friends on Facebook) the response has been "it looks cool and I'm sure someone would use it but I wouldn't because (it's too expensive|I already have plenty of storage in my house|etc.)" Seems strange to me because I would totally use it if it existed. But between other projects and a regular job and the lackluster response I got from friends I haven't been able to justify spending time on it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I don't know if this is even possible but before I dive into what I would like to explain why(Read next para if you want to read what):

A large number of engineers today at least in India are writing the same CRUD applications again and again. I can't believe we haven't reach a level of abstraction where people who needs these app are able to design themselves. This would save tonne of man hours. I have seen so many companies implementing the same employee management, payroll systems, sometimes their own internal social networks. Heck, some are implementing their own email clients because the companies who are selling email services charge a lot. If only we had open source alternatives to these system as that of the grade of Linux kernel, a large number of engineers can start working on more pressing issues.

So I would like to build open source alternative to the systems like employee management, payroll management, student management, hospital management, email services, hotel management,etc. Anyone who wants variations in their system can tweak it making small code changes. Ultimately hoping to reach a level of abstraction where we won't need engineers to code every small business case.

<comment><USER28> It is possible. It came under various avatars called FoxPro, Visual Basic etc, but did not survive post web / web 2.0 era.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I have a few AI/ML pet projects and games [http://wordsmashing.com](http://wordsmashing.com) [http://bigmultiplayerchess.com](http://bigmultiplayerchess.com) [http://multiplicationmaster.com](http://multiplicationmaster.com)

I have one project predicting cryptocurrency prices which makes money [https://bitbank.nz](https://bitbank.nz), the games have no ads/attempt to charge and are more a labour of love :D

given more time i would venture into higher end 3D games and AI's, i also like to make things educational so i would love to make something biologically accurate, there are so many complex systems in real world biology that would make great games e.g for example a game centred around the life of one of these animals: meercat, beaver, bug/spider, ants.... the list goes on :D

</comment><comment><USER30> I would start a business focusing on one of the things I really care about; education for special needs children and bullying. I don't believe in the whole "reinvent everything" stuff that most tech founders proclaim, I would look into working together with people who already work on these issues and see if there's something I could do to innovate on 5% of the process to make it more efficient.

I had a very tough time as a kid because of mild autism, my baby sister has it even worse. I never got much of the help I needed as a child and felt very miserable. My hometown and my parents are much richer today and my sister has gotten a lot of help but I still feel there has to be something one can do to make this better. I was fortunate in discovering my love of math as an adult, and the perseverance to become an engineer, most people weren't as fortunate. I feel an obligation to help the children with special needs in schools today to make them feel safer, respected and empowered in a way childhood me never did.

</comment><comment><USER31> I will plant trees every day and find ways to encourage every human to do so. Save the planet for the next generations

</comment><comment><USER32> I'd love to contribute to some free software projects, but I'm not a coder, and doubt I could ever get my coding and debugging skills up to the necessary level, even with intensive study.

I do enjoy contributing to some of my favorite crowdsourcing efforts, though, so I'd spend a lot more time on all of them if I could:

-Contributing to OpenStreetMap (especially when I travel to less well-covered parts of the world)

-Distributed Proofreaders (proofreading scanned books for Project Gutenberg - [https://www.pgdp.net/c/](https://www.pgdp.net/c/))

-Support the Debian project by finding some software to package and maintain- [https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/orphaned.en.html](https://www.debian.org/devel/wnpp/orphaned.en.html)

<comment><USER3> Code is far from the only way to contribute. Documentation (read good technical writing) is what is missing in most good, lesser known open source projects. Most projects I have seen are almost overly-welcoming of good contributions to their documentation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER33> Well, you can't make more time. You can only make time for what is important to you. I've done that (working full time, starting a business, girlfriend...). I'm trying to get into being a backend engineer for MMOs so I'm starting my own projects which I plan to also live off of while I search for a job that will help me change my career path (currently in enterprise Developmemt). Also, if I'm financially independent I have the luxury of working for fun.

You should ask yourself what your goals are and what you should STOP doing.

One thing I enjoyed doing was building/repairing my race cars but it just didn't align with my goals anymore - so I have someone do it (for now).

<comment><USER34> Where did you start for exploring being a backend engineer for MMOs?

<comment><USER33> I'm already a full stack guy and have led both FE and BE engineers. I had just never built stuff myself that scaled this way. I just picked a small project and will learn from that to build a bigger one and so on.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Really technically advanced open source projects at the intersection of Python, C, and operating systems. For example, today, I'd probably work on Apache Arrow or a C-optimized Parquet implementation for Python. I just love that kind of stuff.

</comment><comment><USER36> \- Watch all korean & Japanese drama & anime & US TV series that get 8/10 rating or higher (It would take 50 years if I spent two hours every day devoted for it)

\- Read all the books I'm interested in (I get depressed thinking I won't ever have enough time to read them all, even if I stopped working for the rest of my life)

\- Watch all the youtube channel I'm following

\- Learn how to play the piano smoothly.

\- Put everything I read and watched into application in my own life. What's the heck to keep theories in your head if you don't put them into practice ?

</comment><comment><USER37> Find an alternative approach to selling software, the benefits of managed software that SaaS offers but with the ease of use of adding a library to your code. No syncing data back and forth in order to really get the benifit

<comment><USER37> This or possibly a projec that would attempt to find an common Set of AST definitions that could be serialised & deserialised into most of the common languages, then store source code in this definition rather than any one language, allowing the "same" program to be shown as C#, or java, or F# or python or javascript ... even maybe individual functions... the syntax essentially just becoming a display preference, but the tooling (source control & diffing & static analysis etc) would all work at the AST level

<comment><USER38> Not exactly what you're suggesting, but look at LLVM IR.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> I would work on making regular space travel a reality for everyone, anyone.

</comment><comment><USER40> my relationships, my body, and a variety of hobby projects i've been meaning to take care of for years.

i need a vacation, i think.

</comment><comment><USER3> I want to design a framework for building web apps which uses up, down, right, left, space (as yes) and esc (as no) as the primary input mechanisms. The way I envision it would look a lot like the UIs the you see in console game systems. If this was coupled with a USB gamepad with a slide-out keyboard it would be even better.

If this existed, the first thing I would create with it would be a data analysis product along the lines of splunk or elk.

I cannot quite put it into words but the picture that I have in my mind would help me so much day-to-day.

</comment><comment><USER41> Advanced Physics Research. Or an OS for the 21st century which discards the warts accumulated by the mainstream ones over the decades — which they refuse to discard for backwards compatibility.

</comment><comment><USER42> I enjoy combining piano and computer programming and have so many musical composition and animation ideas but they are all fragments of completion. For the past year I've been trying to finish some and put on youtube but would enjoy doing more. Then I might actually improve too!

By chance I just put one up this morning

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXECreEgcmU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXECreEgcmU)

</comment><comment><USER28> I would build a self-programming software to build software.

<comment><USER43> So if you had enough time, you would end the Anthropocene? That's intense. I hope you get the time though; it's about time we accept our future!

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> The theory of chemistry from the perspective of information theory. Since we can equate energy and information and since chemical reactions are largely governed by energy landscapes and (quantum) thermodynamics, we should be able to reformulate the energy theories into information theories. Sometimes a change of variables or parameters introduces a more convenient representation for discovering new phenomena.

</comment><comment><USER45> Either a new OS for power users that "just works" or a replacement for the web (a ground-up rewrite of web servers, browsers and protocols).

</comment><comment><USER46> I've organized a group of technologists who are interested in working in our local community to improve understanding of how technology is used or misused in the public sphere. It was my answer to all the times I had to ask "what can I do to help stop this problem/help this effort?"

But it's a side thing and it could be a lot more effective if I could spend more time on it.

</comment><comment><USER47> I'd spend time learning AI/ML stuff.

</comment><comment><USER48> I'd be working on much of the same VR/AR stuff that I'm currently working on, but I'd also be out giving talks and I wouldn't be wasting time on corporate compliance training modules.

More specifically, I'd like to build a VR development environment with built- in teleconferencing: a virtual office.

</comment><comment><USER49> I took a sabbatical recently and explored a bunch of interesting areas of NLP, which culminated in [https://www.alphanym.com/](https://www.alphanym.com/)

If I had infinite free time, I'd just continue exploring the wonders of computational linguistics.

</comment><comment><USER50> Some form of communal space, completely (or almost completely) free for people to stay for a while and work on whatever they want (software, books, videos etc). Food, stay, internet etc will be free, with the understanding that they give away their work for free.

</comment><comment><USER51> I think I would just dig in deeper on my existing hobbies, nothing terribly revelatory.

</comment><comment><USER52> IRC with federated login and support baked in for roaming with multi-device sync.

<comment><USER25> What do you think of Matrix?

<comment><USER52> I think it's over-engineered.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> Finally get that private pilot license. Spend more time with my kids.

</comment><comment><USER54> Education Technology.

The question above doesn't addresses when the problems are large enough that one person's free time alone can't solve.. But maybe effect to some small degree.

</comment><comment><USER55> Retro graphics adventure

</comment><comment><USER18> If I had enough time, I'd start a software design company with focus on disabled people. All the accessibility features today are afterthoughts.

</comment><comment><USER56> One thing I'd work on is open-source tech that can help poor rural families & schools get access to distributed electricity, internet, etc.

</comment><comment><USER57> NLP bots to influence political issues on the internet

</comment><comment><USER58> Cryptocurrency projects.

</comment><comment><USER59> A simple EDA program that doesn't suck (yes, geda, kicad and especially Eagle all suck in various ways).

</comment><comment><USER60> A football analytics website that I have been slowly building for years and learning ML.

</comment><comment><USER61> Database system (for fun)

</comment><comment><USER62> Minikanren, ckanren studying, game development, my own ssh client, my own DHT implementation

All sorts of shit. There's so little time for anything anymore. I'm considering retiring a few years early to get some hacking done.

</comment><comment><USER63> A distributed OS made for programmers.</comment>


Show HN: Data analysis app to fill the gap between SurveyMonkey and SPSS - <AUTHOR> https://www.datacracker.com

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, we made this app based on the idea that there are a lot of people who look at their basic survey results (e.g. what SurveyMonkey and other platforms provide) and don't get any insights.

The only other competitor in this space that I know of is Statwing, and we're going for better ease of use and more features.

For example, DataCracker generates a report with charts or tables up front (optionally with profiling or break down questions), can export to PPT/PDF. We've got automatic significance testing (shown via arrows and colors next to data points) that indicate whether p-values are significant and arrow length according to statistical tests. Our Groups feature uses latent class analysis to discover segments within survey respondents.

Let me know what you think!

</comment><comment><USER2> Cool, what sort of stack are you running this on?

<comment><AUTHOR> We're running on Windows Azure - ASP.NET web roles (C#, TypeScript) talking to worker roles that do the statistical computation (C#).</comment></comment>


Marc Andreessen Reaction to TRAI ruling against differential pricing - <AUTHOR> http://i.imgur.com/ubaw5OR.png <comment><AUTHOR> more information here: [http://thenextweb.com/in/2016/02/10/marc-andreessen- just-off...](http://thenextweb.com/in/2016/02/10/marc-andreessen-just- offended-1-billion-indians-with-a-single-tweet/)</comment>


Want jobs? Encourage immigration - <AUTHOR> http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/25/opinion/wilkinson-jobs-immigration/index.html <comment><USER2> Jobs. It would seems that we have an obsession with creating jobs.

If you hear politicians, and if my perception are right, they talk about jobs. Not whether or not we get more purchasing power than ever before. Not whether or not our lifestyle is more fulfilling than ever before. Jobs. More jobs. Less jobs. More competitive Americans. No manufacturing jobs. Colleges not creating enough people to fill jobs. Robots are destroying our jobs. Robots need to be maintain by something or someone, probably another robot or human being.

But jobs are just proxy. A proxy for our self-worth, our independence, or whether or not we have a future. Jobs, for us, are just means to an end. Yes, some of us are musicians, football players, programmers, scientists, etc. We like our jobs. I suspect the vast majority of humans don't really enjoy all that much working their job.

Rather than talking about creating jobs and destroying jobs, which is an assumption that exists in a world where there are scarcity and there's boring things to do for humans to maintain their existence, why not talk about the end, what should our goal be in life? We can then rearrange our actions in life based on our conclusion what our life should be and what we want to achieve rather than just simply on what needed to be done at this point in time.

After all, if a strong FAI comes, we may not even have jobs. At the same time, we ought to figure out what's our life purpose other than going to a job and work for someone or operating a business just to simply maintain our existence. There's no longer a need to grow your food, goes to the hair saloon to cut someone's hair, pump the gas, etc. How are we going to live for the next 10,000 years and 10,000 years beyond that and so on?

<comment><USER3> This is a nice thought, and might be relevant a few decades ago when America was at the top of its game in relation to all the other countries on Earth. Now, I'm not so sure. You're talking about a post-scarcity society when a growing portion of Americans can't even put food on the table or a roof over their head. You're talking the personal fulfillment when more and more Americans are forced to work multiple jobs just to make ends meet.

It's nice that you have the freedom and the time to ponder such ideological issues. It's nice that you're able to look higher on the hierarchy of needs rather than scrabbling for scraps. I mean that in the non-snarkiest of ways, really.

But for the vast majority of the population they _need_ a job right now. They don't have time to worry about your high-minded concepts of personal fulfillment, and whether or not a FAI will usher in a utopia of zero scarcity. They need to make rent and put groceries in the fridge _this week_.

The politicians are focusing on jobs as a core issue because that's what's foremost on people's minds. It's foremost on people's minds because _it's exactly what they need_. They need more jobs in a stronger economy. Imagine if all the unemployed folk in this country just sat around waiting for the post- scarcity society to hit them upside the head!

<comment><USER4> _You're talking about a post-scarcity society when a growing portion of Americans can't even put food on the table or a roof over their head._

What are the actual numbers here? How does this situation compare with other countries in the world?

The huge majority of Americans have, if anything, excessive food on their tables, and the great majority of Americans live in houses with sounder roofs over more square feet of floor space than people in most other countries. Why should Americans feel any urgency about changes in immigration policy when they know that most people who might like to come to the United States will instantly have more access to food and housing as soon as they set foot in America?

<comment><USER3> > _"Why should Americans feel any urgency about changes in immigration policy > when they know that most people who might like to come to the United States > will instantly have more access to food and housing as soon as they set foot > in America?"_

Because things out there aren't nearly as bad as the average American believes. As an Asian immigrant to North America, it's constantly shocking how backwards many Americans imagine the rest of the world to be. Yes, much of the world has running water, sewage systems, fast food, and the internet.

Not everywhere else in the world is begging for a National Geographic special, or commercials full of starving babies pleading for your aid. The India of 1980 is not the same as a the India of 2011. The China seen in Tiananmen Square is not the same China one sees today. Many Americans' impressions of the rest of the world seem firmly rooted in the Cold War.

It used to be true that moving to the USA meant pretty much a guaranteed, dramatic rise in the standard of living. But guess what? America's QOL is dropping precipitously, while parts of the world previously considered "developing" can now give America a run for its money in terms of QOL. There's a great equalization going on, and _that_ is why the US needs to worry about its immigration policy.

Ten years ago immigrating to the West was _the_ thing. People would smack their own grandmothers silly for a chance at a one-way ticket out of Asia and into America. You would be surprised how quickly this has changed. I've known many people who came to the US and Canada for degrees and then have voluntarily gone back to Asia, despite offers to stay.

tl;dr: America needs to get its head on straight, it's no longer the gold standard for quality of life in this world.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm pro-immigration, but the article still feels like a bit of a sham to me by highlightling Brin, Omidyar and Yang without addressing the fact that Sergey Brin immigrated to America when he was 6, Pierre Omidyar was also 6 and Jerry Yang was 10.

How do you know then that they'll be massive job creators? Certainly each of them had ambitious parents and that's something, but then so does just about everyone who actively works to immigrate to a new place for a better life... assuming we can't figure out who the next Brin will be when they are 6 or 10 (and we can't), is the author arguing we should just open up the floodgates to everyone with educated parents? Because that's a heckofalot of people.

<comment><USER6> But since we don't have a visa that allows for entrepreneurial founders to immigrate here, how can we have examples to highlight their potential contributions? The closest thing we can do is point to similar people.

Personally, I think that Vinod Khosla and Manu Kumar are better examples. I'm of the understanding that Khosla didn't have a valid visa when Sun was founded, but an exemption was made because of the sheer success of the company from nearly day 1.

The other thing I want to look at is people like Robin Li of Baidu, American educated, employed by American companies, but when it came time to create a company, he went home. Possibly, even likely, that was because a company serving Chinese should be based in China, but it's certain that since he didn't have a green card, he wouldn't be able to get a visa as a founder to stay here. America loses when people who could stay here to found companies return to their country to create jobs and foreign competition there.

<comment><USER5> I don't disagree with you at all on the immigration issues and I fully support fast track immigration & citizenship for high-value immigrants, I just think it is intellectually dishonest to use 3 founders who all immigrated before they were teenagers as examples for a point the author was trying to make when they don't really fit the narrative. That the author didn't even mention the age that these men immigrated makes it feel like she was trying to pull a fast one on the reader who has heard the names but isn't really familiar with their stories (which will be most readers).

As far as Baidu goes, I don't think it could exist as a non-Chinese company, and more because of China's government policies than the USA's.

<comment><USER6> The fit the narrative of 'immigrants are statistically hungrier for startup success,' specifically referencing this line in the article: "According to statistics from Partnership for a New American Economy, 40% of Fortune 500 companies were created by immigrants or their children."

From there, the author goes on to say that if the immigrants and their children are more likely to start companies, why are we preventing young adults from coming here to start companies, especially if they are validated by making something people want as demonstrated by either VC validation or pure revenue numbers? The third path of Startup Visa 2011 is for people valued enough to receive a US education or H1-B visa, as currently they are not valued enough to be allowed to start a company, with no visa existing for them to do so.

I find it a bit of a stretch, but not intellectually dishonest, though I do see why it's reasonable to think so.

I take the point on Baidu, but that's the sort of company I'm looking to promote as a counterpoint when we pitch our next follow-ups to ABC and NBC after Amit's story.

<comment><USER7> The main thing that seems like a huge stretch is that those are good examples for an idea of a "parental visa", giving visas to immigrants _with children_ who you think are likely to be good parents, whose kids will then grow up in U.S. society and be highly successful. Not as good examples in support of the "entrepreneur visa" idea, which expects the people receiving the visa to themselves start a company in the short term, something that didn't actually happen in any of those examples.

<comment><USER6> I hear you, there are significant flaws in the examples she uses. I still think they're valid in demonstrating a different point than "entrepreneur visa." Her point is that there is an 'immigrant' demographic, and this demographic makes for good founders. Then, and only then, she makes the point that an entrepreneur visa for founders is a good idea.

The author uses immigrants' children/very young immigrants not immediately connected to the plan of starting a company to reference the entire immigrant demographic as a whole, since current US policies make it extremely improbable we can come up with good positive examples of a young immigrant starting a company, because US immigration rules prevent this situation from occurring.

Her logic is as follows: -Fact: "According to statistics from Partnership for a New American Economy, 40% of Fortune 500 companies were created by immigrants or their children." -Examples: Immigrants' children starting Fortune 500 companies

The logic here is using the immigrants' children to support the point that both immigrants and their children start companies, since the only direct immigrants who started the companies were either much older and already gone through the green card or broke the rules to start their company.

One of the major problems in our advocacy is that there is this big negative space that we /think/ can be filled. By definition, because it's a negative space, there are no positive examples to point to in making the argument. Positive examples strengthen any abstract argument, so they must be made. In this case, the author goes to young immigrants not immediately connected to startups to make the case that immigrants as a class make for good founders.

From there, the author makes one of her major points:

-Argument: US immigration prevents people from starting companies shortly after entering the country due to current visa rules -Example: Amit Aharoni/ABC story -Conclusion: Therefore we should change policy to allow more people like Amit in, hopefully creating more successes in this 'immigrant' demographic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> The US really needs to emulate other countries here.

The problem here is that the "immigrant" visa is really the same thing as a work visa, and that leads to a great deal of abuse.

For one thing, the eligibility is tied to an employer, who is incentivized to embellish, cheat, and otherwise finagle their way to a visa. The expectation that the visa is _temporary_ also sets a lower bar for entry - even though many of these people will eventually become American PRs/citizens.

The recent trend to "stage" the H-1B green card process is a step in the right direction - though it doesn't go as far as it needs to. There is still a major problem of indentured servitude. Once an employee has a green card process in the pipeline their employer has them over a barrel - and many will not hesitate to use this as an opportunity for abuse.

Not to mention, with the green card backlog the way it is now, it would be years before "your huddled masses of immigrant entrepreneurs yearning to breathe free" are actually _able_ to start businesses. First they have to go through ~8-10 years as a rank and file employee, before they're granted the legal freedom to pursue their own future. The startup visa would go a long way to alleviating that, though the heavy involvement of VCs in that initiative will mean that bootstrappers and other scrappy startups that _don't_ want to raise hojillions in funding will be still at a severe disadvantage.

How do you fix this? IMO the US needs to setup a track for immigrants to _immediately_ receive green cards, where having a job offer is _not_ a prerequisite (though it would certainly help). The focus needs to shift away from fulfilling "temporary shortages" (which we all know is bullshit) to simply permanent, mass importation of worthy talent. Set up the process to filter people based on the assumption that they will permanently stay, as opposed the the current process where we'll let just about anyone in, since they're "temporary" H-1Bs anyways. This will raise the calibre of people you're letting in, and also make sure you're giving top talent maximum freedom once they're here. The whole "immigration policy masquerading as work permit" thing _really_ needs to GTFO.

<comment><USER7> > The US really needs to emulate other countries here.

Which other countries are these? As the holder of an employer-tied 3-year temporary Danish work permit, with no possibility to even apply for the Danish equivalent of a green card until I've resided in the country with solid employment for at least 4 years (and passed a language exam, something the U.S. _doesn't_ require), I don't think it can be this one...

Though to be fair, the Danish consulate was friendly and efficient with processing the employer-tied temporary permit.

<comment><USER8> most european countries have such a xenophobic system, but the uk, canada, iraland, new zealand, and australia have really open systems in place

<comment><USER9> then those countries should be receiving the benefits of immigrant- entrepreneurs and now be hotbeds of innovation because of it. it doesn't seem like that's happening.

<comment><USER3> I'm Canadian, I'd argue Canada _is_ receiving the benefits of immigrant- entrepreneurs.

There are considerable innovations coming out of that country - the fact that it's not a hotbed for internet startups seems hardly relevant in the big picture. Businesses are being created by immigrants, who are creating wealth and employment in their respective communities. The fact that this in general has nothing to do with dotcoms is really a detail. Canada continues to be extremely competitive in traditional engineering disciplines, and is world- leading in many fields of science, not least of which is molecular engineering. The University of Toronto, after all, still holds the patent on insulin.

Next time you see a video of the International Space Station, with its bleeding-edge, unprecedented robotic arm, see if you can zoom and see which nation's flag is on it. Or dig into the US's collection of scientific and communications satellites and see how much of their R&D actually occurs in Canada.

I hope people on HN realize that the word "innovation" applies to all manners of fields. So often I feel like this community has blinders on, and very narrowly define "innovation" as "things that occur in _my_ field".

<comment><USER9> The piece cites companies like Google, eBay, and Yahoo. Can you provide three examples anywhere close to those in terms of number of jobs, in _any_ industry?

The benefit may indeed be non-zero, but it doesn't seem that the benefit is signficant.

<comment><USER3> RIM and ATI? One got acquired and continues to thrive, the other one is busy circling the drain - but both were innovative, significant employers, and remain so, on the scale of eBay and Yahoo. Both companies were founded by immigrants (Chinese for ATI, Greek/Turkish for RIM).

Google is a juggernaut that I won't touch simply because they're such an outlier, even in the get-big-fast world of dotcoms.

And let's be honest, in terms of job-creating power, this "innovative" industry of software is a drop in the bucket: <http://jobs.lovetoknow.com/Largest_American_Employers> \- the employers with the largest employment impact are not the ones we would traditionally consider "innovative".

For reference, Google has about 30K employees world-wide.

In any case, we can argue about semantics and labor theory all day. Why don't you go to Toronto some time, climb the CN Tower, hang out in Chinatown, take the TTC to Bathurst, Eglington, Pape, and tell me that Canadian immigration policy hasn't been a gigantic boon for the country.

I'm a Canadian expat in the US right now, and the difference is startling. Canada has done a remarkable job of integrating its immigrant population into the middle class - the US likes to imagine itself as a melting pot, but for the most part ethnic diversity in this country is still separated along enormous socioeconomic lines - lines that are significantly blurrier in Canada. The fact that Canadian immigrants are first-class members of society from day one I believe is key to this difference. As is the fact that a "straight to permanent residence" policy sets the bar higher. The US is letting in enormous numbers of refugees and family reunification individual - people of questionable worth to society - with "straight to PR" tracks, but still bars the door to working professionals and highly educated academics with decade-long "indentured H-1B servitude". You tell me if that policy makes sense.

<comment><USER10> You mentioned Toronto, do you think the immigration policy has had a gigantic boon for the country, or for Toronto? I'm really just curious.

As a young Albertan, still living and breathing here, I question how well the 'cultural mosaic' has stood the test of time. Granted, I do see some good like you mentioned, but looking at some of the recent economic impact data (I'm not an expert in this field and have merely googled and wikapedia'd for my research) it does look like there are systemic struggles that have developed over the last 25 years and that good you mentioned, is fewer and far between. It's a really interesting point of discussion though, so thank you.

<comment><USER3> I've personally lived in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, Waterloo, and London (yeah, one of those is not like the others), and I've been to _many_ other cities both urban, and rural. The immigration boon is nearly universal across the board in all the places I have been. I've worked in 3 industries in Canada - traditional mechanical engineering, software, and astrophysics. Immigrants are extremely dominant in all three, and many of the top names are first or second-generation. I think, for the most part, Canada's immigration policy has turned out remarkably well, and needs to be commended for rather deftly avoiding the common pitfall that plagues a lot of countries: integrating immigrants into the middle class, instead of letting them fall into minority ghettos.

It's not perfect - I'm sure if you look at the data you will still see an income gap between native-born Canadians and recent immigrants, but having lived on both sides of the border I have to say America's problems are at least an order of magnitude worse than ours. The socioeconomic stratification of immigrants in the US means that several ethnicities are _automatically_ assumed to be poor and uneducated - an assumption that largely doesn't hold water in Canada. With the sad exception of the aboriginal population, there is no real ethnic group in Canada that's as systemically impoverished and and marginalized as the blacks and latinos are in the USA. Sure, we have ghettos, but by and large they're not defined along racial and ethnic lines. The wide gaps between races in the US really does encourage a very pervasive undercurrent of racism that's largely impolite to mention in company, but easily felt. I simply do not get the same vibe in Canada, and that's a very good thing.

Having never lived in AB though, I'm interested in hearing your perspectives on it - I know the racial/ethnic balance there is not quite the same as Vancouver or Toronto, so maybe the scene is different. I can tell you that in the extremely industrial town of London, Ontario, the economic stratification between immigrants and non-immigrants can be more easily felt, but even then for the most part the poverty that pervades that city is blind to race.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Why doesn't the US move to a points-based system like the UK and Canada? This seems like a simple and sensible solution to a complex problem that ensures that the people who immigrate are in some sense "useful" to the country.

I also don't understand why the green card backlog isn't being handled efficiently. Surely, if somebody is paying, say more than 20k in income taxes every year for, say 5 years in a row, there is reason to believe their contribution to the country is a net positive. Why not just give them citizenship and be done with it?

As an outsider, I feel like the US is the opposite of an "agile" government. It seems like there is a lot bickering and fear-mongering at every level and important decisions are being made based on populism and emotional appeals rather than rational decision making. I'm not sure if this is really the case because my news sources are the likes of Reddit and the so-called "liberal media", but unfortunately this is perception I get.

<comment><USER4> _I feel like the US is the opposite of an "agile" government._

Yes. That is intentional by the design of the federal Constitution. A friend of mine, an engineer, was discussing American politics with me and another friend, a mathematics teacher, one day. The mathematics teacher decried the inefficiency of United States government. The engineer replied, "I'm an engineer. The one thing I'm afraid of is EFFICIENT government." Many Americans are strongly in agreement with Henry David Thoreau that "That government is best which governs least."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_(Thoreau)#.2...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Disobedience_\(Thoreau\)#.22That_government_is_best_which_governs_least.22)

<comment><USER11> So what's the reason Americans feel this way? Is there any fundamental reason why efficient governments are bad?

What does it mean to say that a government "governs the least"? Does it make the fewest number of laws? Does employ the fewest number of people? Does it spend the least money? All of the above? Some of the above? Why are these good?

<comment><USER12> Americans don't feel that way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm shocked at the amount of xenophobia in the comments on the CNN site. Being Canadian, I have no idea whether it is representative of the population at large, but it appears that many Americans have been brainwashed into the thinking that the only immigrants are the ones driving cabs or working at fast food. The problem is that everybody has been talking themselves to death about illegal immigration, and haven't focused on the benefits of legal immigration. Does the Startup Visa have a chance in hell with the current political climate surrounding immigration in the US?

<comment><USER14> The problem is that most Americans are the descendents of the people that arrived, displaced the native population, took their land and exploited it's natural resources.

So naturally they are wary of people coming along and doing the same to them.

This doesn't really apply to Canada.

<comment><USER15> I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but I have to ask: do you really think there were no indigenous peoples in Canada when the French and English came to settle there? Just pristine wilderness?

<comment><USER8> different scale though, most of canada is still empty and natives can roam free if they want

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I agree that US needs an entrepreneur visas. But I disagree with author's suggestion that all US-educated graduates must be given green cards. A lot of them came to US to study because they could afford it (often via wealthy parents). I don't think it's fair to give green cards only because they graduated from a US university thanks to their rich parents.

Foreign students have one year after graduation to find an employer, convert to H-1B and then ask the employer to sponsor the green card. Nothing wrong with this.

However, of course H1-B to green card to citizenship must be done in a more timely manner. In many cases it takes too long. The time spent on waiting for the green card (sometimes as long as 4-5 years or even more, due to slow bureaucracy) must be in some way counted towards the citizenship requirement of 5-year residency.

I think as baby-boomer generation starts to retire en-mass, U.S. will have no choice but to liberalize and simplify its immigration policy. It is competing against many other developed countries for younger workers and talent, and the earnings disparity is becoming less of a factor in many developing countries. There's just no way out but to make immigration process faster and more attractive if the U.S. wants to win.

<comment><USER6> There's a 17 month extension, to 29 months, if you graduated in a technical/STEM field under Optional Practical Training (OPT) which I think you're referencing: [http://www.nafsa.org/regulatory_information.sec/regulatory_d...](http://www.nafsa.org/regulatory_information.sec/regulatory_document_library.dlib/sevis/opt_29_month_rule/)

"But I disagree with author's suggestion that all US-educated graduates must be given green cards. A lot of them came to US to study because they could afford it (often via wealthy parents). I don't think it's fair to give green cards only because they graduated from a US university thanks to their rich parents." Very insightful!

However, the green card wait times are more due to scarcity, with many more people entering the green card pipeline than by law can exit each year, rather than slow bureaucracy.

I agree re: the future of immigration policy, but I think the talent war is even more important than you think. Right now, and since the 60s, US immigration policy has been aligned on a family-unification platform, and with strict numerical limits, a huge percentage of American immigration is taken up by family-based immigration. As liberal and pleasing as it is, it's going to have to go, as America will have to fully enter the competition for top talent.

<comment><USER16> Speaking from personal experience, my employment-based green card had been delayed by about two years because of so-called "FBI name check". Not because of the quotas. So bureaucracy plays a part (based on what I know, it has been reduced somewhat after Obama took office).

I am not so sure about the statements on family-based immigration. First, even close family members often spend many years waiting. More importantly, though: we all ideally want future Sergei Brins just to come and start next Google and hire thousands. But let's don't forget that he came to states as a young child (just as some other founders mentioned in the CNN article) with his well educated parents. By the time he started Google, he was 20-something and effectively an American. Would he be able to do this if he just came as a foreign student? Not so sure. So, we need to get families too, but those who have not just hopes, but also education. We need smart families, smart parents. We need to make America attractive to them.

P.S. I am stunned by all negative comments on CNN site saying immigrants take American jobs, and America educates foreigners, but not its own citizens. It seems to me many people don't realize that foreign students are in fact paying for Americans to get to schools by paying much higher tuition fees that make schools profitable and able to offer scholarships to locals.

<comment><USER6> Alright, I concede the point to your personal experience.

Agree about the need for "long-term investment" in smart families, but I think the political importance of strict immigration numbers and the short-term pressure over the talent war is going to shift US immigration policies away from families and towards talent.

Re: PS - ugh, completely agree. This is one of the better argued articles in terms of foreign immigrants = US jobs rather than purely abstract foreign immigrants = stronger US economy, so the comments are less rancid but still vile. Compare to Rey Ramsey's piece on HuffPo: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rey-ramsey/open-americas- doors...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rey-ramsey/open-americas-doors-to- in_b_974340.html)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> If you read TechCrunch (Wadhwa's pieces especially) or the ABC article referenced, this piece contains absolutely nothing new, just a rehash of the same things. Sparse, suspect data, plenty of correlation/causation fallacies, and topped off with a populist appeal to "create jobs"

<comment><USER6> One issue in terms of data that I struggle with on researching this issue is that we're discussing a big empty space and wondering why it is empty. Immigrants in the US aren't allowed to build companies and create jobs unless they are very lucky/connected or they wait a long period of time to get their green card, since no visa currently exists for founders.

We can't do A/B testing to see if our suspicions that we'd have more startups and more jobs for US citizens if we allowed more founders—not more blanket immigration, mind you—into the country. The people who do find a way in tend to be the best and the brightest of the pool, so our anecdata looks favorable. There seem to be indications that immigrants and first-generation citizens tend to be 'hungrier' than more established populations, though that doesn't say anything about success/failure rates.

From a physics perspective, it's like hunting dark matter. We suspect that job growth would result from passing Startup Visa or STEM Green Cards, but economics theories are nowhere close to the rigor of physics theories. VCs still only invest in solid, market-driven ideas. I'd rather trust to them and to the market as a whole as to who sees success than have the government throw up artificial barriers to block non-Americans from American networks of capital and talent, especially when it means the failure to launch of startups that might make my life better.

Kauffman does indicate that young companies produce the most net job growth in America: [http://www.kauffman.org/newsroom/kauffman-foundation- analysi...](http://www.kauffman.org/newsroom/kauffman-foundation-analysis- emphasizes-importance-of-young-businesses-to-job-creation-in-the-united- states.aspx) , though as Steve Blank says, 'startups' are lumped together when there's a large differentiation that needs to be taken into account: [http://steveblank.com/2011/09/01/why-governments- don%E2%80%9...](http://steveblank.com/2011/09/01/why-governments- don%E2%80%99t-get-startups/)

The best bit of public policy analysis I've seen on Startup Visa and implications for job growth is from the National Foundation for American Policy (NFAP), but they studied the 2010 Startup Visa, which is much more limited than even the 2011 Startup Visa. The 2011 version of the bill doesn't address STEM Green Cards and is strictly limited in an attempt to pass a conservative House of Representatives, whose majority has a strong anti- immigration faction.

So we're left with all of the arguments that you state. However, note that a thoughtful person like yourself isn't the target audience of something on CNN. The NFAP analysis is probably more 'chewy' for someone who wants to dive into the issue.

EDIT: Forgot the NFAP link: [http://www.nfap.com/pdf/092910NFAPPolicyBriefImmigrantEntrep...](http://www.nfap.com/pdf/092910NFAPPolicyBriefImmigrantEntrepreneurVisa.pdf)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> This logic has always bothered me, and I know lots of you will disagree, but here it is: Job creation alone is not a noble goal. It should _never_ be used as a reason for making policy changes.

There's an economic fallacy at place here. Jobs, in and of themselves, do not benefit us on the whole. You could give some number of people a "job" to walk around in circles all day long and pay them money for it, but the net effect would be that society sees no benefit from this. Productive jobs, however, are good things. There is a conflict, though: the more productive your job is, the fewer employees are necessary - actually resulting in fewer jobs.

Hopefully you have witnessed this first-hand over the last few decades. Travel agencies have been replaced by Priceline, Expedia, etc. Tax specialists have been replaced by TurboTax, TaxAct, etc. Even simple legal matters can be handled by LegalZoom and the like, reducing the need for lawyers. All manufactured media products (books, news, movies, music, games) are now transferred digitally, which eliminates the need for factory workers to produce physical products. Online banking eliminates the need for bank tellers. Countless other examples.

Essentially, technology _kills jobs_. We develop software and devices to handle what was traditionally done by people, and sell the services at a much cheaper rate because we don't have to pay for all the overhead that old services once required. This is a _good thing_ , however.

Anyway, I'm all for immigration, and I'm all for tech companies. But the fact is they destroy jobs more than they create them, and are therefore partially responsible for the current unemployment rate. The logic behind this article is all backwards because of this.

<comment><USER9> Agreed. The term for what you describe in your third paragraph is "labor replacement". There is huge profit to be made in labor replacement, with the effect of loss of jobs.

It is troubling that few readers pick up on the use of examples with _gross_ jobs created and not _net_ jobs created. In this case, Amit Arahoni's 9 jobs created are gross, not net. A more-clear example would be that of Craigslist. How many jobs has Craigslist created? Well, 30 jobs in gross, but likely a large negative number in net as it played a large part in displacing at least one entire industry (newspapers).

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> One thing is work visas; another is college visas.

I remember being told (as a European) in the equivalent of high school(?) that if I wanted to go to an American college, I would have to start preparations a year and a half in advance - mainly due to the time spent on processing visas.

I would have loved nothing better than to go to an American college, but, at least at the time, that made it neigh-impossible to apply for an American college, when studying at a national university or, hell, another university in Europe or Britain seemed so much easier.

I don't know what other people's experiences are, and it may be a cultural thing; maybe the process is otherwise facilitated in, say, India and China.

 _EDIT: FWIW, this was after 9/11. Just to account for whatever that may have changed._

<comment><USER6> The NYT had an interesting article about increasing numbers of international students on American campuses, possibly for financial reasons, since most universities are not need-blind for international students. I'm guessing it's easier now, and there are certainly professionals who facilitate the process in China, according to the article.

[http://chronicle.com/article/Chinese-Students- Prove-a/129628...](http://chronicle.com/article/Chinese-Students- Prove-a/129628/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> The US immigration and visa situation is really quite horrendous.

For example, I'm an Australian. That means I qualify for (and have) an E-3 visa. What's that you might ask? It's a special work visa _created specifically for Australian nationals_. It applies for two years and can be renewed indefinitely.

What's more, unlike an H1B visa, it's not subject to quotas and the employer doesn't first need to "prove" they couldn't find a suitably qualified domestic worker (a system fraught with abuse that simply acts as a wealth transfer system from companies to immigration lawyers).

The problem? When I need to renew it, it may take USCIS _months_. Plus it's more expensive than applying for a fresh visa. Also, once approved they renew your _status_ not your _visa_. What does that mean? It means if you leave the country for any reason you don't have a valid visa to re-enter the US so you have to get a new visa anyway.

Basically, you need to leave the country every two years to apply for a new one (since you can't apply within the US, of course).

What's more, each time I will have to fill out the exact same set of questions (DS-160), make an appointment, give them my passport and wait for it to be returned.

Why does this visa exist? Essentially to settle a trade dispute between the US and Australia over wheat. Australia does not subsidize wheat. The US does (as does Europe) to a huge degree, yet Australian wheat is _still_ price competitive but the US keeps Australian wheat out of the US on the flimsy grounds of "quarantine" (something Australia complained loudly to the WTO as an artificial restriction of trade for years, which like most things that are not to the US's advantage, it simply ignored). This was eventually settled and the E3 visa was one byproduct of this.

But you can see just how screwed up the system is that factors like this cause visas to be created.

Others have posted about the whole H1B problem (quotas, etc) and the backlog of green card processing basically allowing employers to treat you like indentured servants. That needs to change.

Some argue H1B visas are used to pay substandard wages in lieu of employing domestic workers. The substandard wages bit is true but that's because of the H1B processing problem. The real problem for domestic software engineers at least is that most people who call themselves "engineers" or "programmers" _suck_.

I've been shocked at some of the people I've interviewed, their inability to code very simple problems and their complete lack of theoretical foundations. _And those are the ones that make it past resume screening and phone screens".

The government needs to accept that tech companies are basically the most mobile in the world. Look at big tech companies and you'll see they need data centers, some of which need to be in the US (which really doesn't employ that many people). Everything else can be done from _anywhere*. Barriers to entry, kneejerk legislation (eg Sarbanes-Oxley) and software patents are all contributing to driving the future Googles and Facebooks elsewhere.

All of this makes me a little sad actually because the US has forgotten it's route. The US is a country of immigrants (IIRC population 2 million in 1800, 50 million in 1900).

One of the reasons I've come to New York to work is because I want to see it. New York is the beating heart of commerce and you can see capitalism and commerce in every form here, some pretty, some not-so-pretty.

I want to see it before it doesn't exist anymore.

My picture of the US is one of decay, rotting from within, collapsing under a mountain of debt and unsustainable policies that will be its downfall. The Roman Empire was enormous and collapsed. The British Empire was enormous and collapsed. Don't think it can't happen again.

<comment><USER20> I do agree that the US immigration system sucks. As an Australian, you may not realize the current state of immigration policy in your own country.

I'm an American and I live and work in Sydney. I came in on the 457 subclass visa. Not sure if you're familiar with it. It's pretty much the same as the H1B (No E-3 equivalent in the other direction unfortunately). The employer has to prove the job can't be filled by a domestic worker. This particular visa program is also rife with abuse by employers looking to keep costs down [1]. A typical H1B visa holder in the USA would have their health insurance paid for by their employer. 457 visa holders are usually required to purchase their own since everyone else is covered under the national health care system. H1B visa holder's children in the USA can attend public schools for free. 457 visa holders in Australia have to pay public school tuition (~$5k/year/child) in Australia on top of paying normal federal and state taxes. Personally, I'm very satisfied with my situation but this isn't the case with all 457 visa holders.

Much like the US, Australia is a nation of immigrants. Most people I've met here are 2nd generation (i.e. their parents immigrated). Yet, there is a surprising amount of opposition to immigration[2].

[1][http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/employers-avoid-fines-despite- visa...](http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/employers-avoid-fines-despite-visa-abuse- sanctions-20110725-1hx98.html)

[2][http://www.smh.com.au/national/allout-assault-over-issue- of-...](http://www.smh.com.au/national/allout-assault-over-issue-of-boat- people-20110821-1j4sg.html)

<comment><USER19> Firstly, you're quite right: I'm not aware of how the 457 works in Australia since (obviously) I don't have to get one. My understanding though is that in spite of the problems you brought up (which are news to me), at least processing is very quick and the process itself doesn't seem to be subject to as much politicking as the US system (IMHO).

As for the health insurance [1], this is definitely news to me and I'm a little surprised because it was passed by the Labor (left-wing) government. It's not all bad though: there are arrangements for countries with reciprocal health care agreements (mainly a handful of European countries).

If you think about it, that's fair enough. A broken arm in the US without health insurance could bankrupt me. The US doesn't provide Australians health care. Why should Australia provide it to Americans? It's just that the US doesn't provide health care to _Americans_ either.

It's a good tip for those going to work in Australia: negotiate for employer- paid health insurance.

Honestly though, I don't think Australia is such a great place to live anymore (compared to 10+ years ago) for no other reason than the _insane_ cost of living. It's cheaper for me to live in downtown Manhattan than it is in inner- city _Perth_ and buying lunch doesn't cost me $15 here.

But I digress...

It is my understanding the Australian visa and residency system isn't paralyzed however. Getting a residency visa is (or at least was) relatively straightforward if you're degree-qualified and you speak English.

I agree that there is anti-immigration sentiment but the example you point to about _illegal_ immigration (namely "boat people" from Indonesia and beyond). The problem there is that an awful lot of "asylum seekers" are nothing more than "economic migrants" attempting to jump the queue, where such migration is paid for by essentially indentured servitude to people smugglers once they arrive, possibly for years.

There are many reasons to clamp down on illegal immigration. [1]: [http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/457-health-insurance-faq- visa...](http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/457-health-insurance-faq-visa- holder.htm)

<comment><USER21> I saw an article in a British paper last week. It basically said the UK- Australia people flow is drastically declining.

They went on about a whole lot of made-up factors like people missing their families and the rest, but the simple fact of the matter is that the cost of living in Australia is out of control.

It used to be you could sell your crappy 2 bedroom semi in an outer London suburb and move to a nice big home in Australia, and have plenty of money left over to send the kids to a good school.

Nowadays that's not the case.

Same for the young Australian - you used to be able to go to London for a couple of years, save up your money and come back with a decent stash of savings. Also no longer the case.

Honestly I think Australia is choking on it's property prices which has fuelled massive debts. It's why your chicken sandwich costs $15, because the rents are out of control because of the price the owner paid for the shop.

W/regards to not having access to Australian healthcare, I already knew that because I met a NZ guy ages ago who explained the whole deal. Not sure what the situation is now but back when the conversation took place there was no reciprocal agreement and people from NZ had to pay full-freight to get access to healthcare.

<comment><USER22> Well, the Australian dollar has doubled in value. That makes it much harder to migrate.

<comment><USER21> Yes, that was my point, though sadly I seem to have omitted it.

Also, the UK authorities are making it much harder for Australians to stay on after completing a 2 year working holiday visa.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> In Canada, international students are given work permit up to 3 years after graduation and after 1 year of full-time employment they can apply for permanent residency. I think the US could benefit from a similar policy.

</comment><comment><USER24> While I agree we need to encourage immigration, the "facts" stated in this article seem like a causation does not imply correlation argument that drive me nuts.

</comment><comment><USER25> It's not a zero-sum game when you bring in bright people. Smart people create opportunity around them.

On the other hand, I'm not so enthusiastic about lowering immigration barriers so we can get cheap workers to robotically throw together CRUD forms. (I guess that work is outsourced, anyway?)

</comment><comment><USER19> I believe humanity is approaching an important turning point that will either herald in a new era and a new way of thinking or there are going to be some dark times ahead.

The entire of human history has thus far been fueled by population growth. When there were 10 million of us, this wasn't a problem. When there were 100 million of us, this wasn't a problem. When there were 1 billion of us, it was _mostly_ not a problem. Now as we zero in on 10 billion... it's becoming a problem.

The way our society and our economy works should in so many ways tell you this is true. Look at the urban decay that occurred in many American cities in the 20th century.

Urban decay post-WW2 was fuelled by the interstate system, the cheapening cost of owning a car and that it was cheaper to build new communities than it was to maintain existing infrastructure.

Some cities experienced negative population growth with devastating consequences (eg Detroit, Baltimore). Certainly in Detroit's case, there are large swathes of the city that really need to be returned to wilderness. But who's going to pay for the demolition, relocation and clean up?

The Western world is essentially dying with net migration being pretty much the only reason any Western country is growing at all. The social experiments of the early 20th century (ie state-funded retirement) are, at present rates, ultimately unsustainable when we get down to 3 or even 2 employed people pre retired person (initially it was in excess of 50 to 1 at least for Social Security).

An aging population is a natural consequence of slowing population growth, just like urban decay is. So far we've largely shown ourselves at being ill- equipped at dealing with either, except for politicking around migration, which basically just kicks that can further down the street.

It is my opinion that there need to be an awful lot less of us and there will be one day, one way or the other. As much as people point to space as a solution to these problems we have an economy built in basically digging not- that-deep holes for our metals. While there are metal-rich asteroids out there, the cost of moving, processing and using those materials is so many orders of magnitude more expensive (both realistically and conceivably) that I have to wonder if it will _ever_ be comparable (although it might one day be viable just because every other way has become so expensive, which will be an earth-shattering adjustment for us all).

So migration is, I believe, a short term fix. But it doesn't address what I believe to be a key driver in unemployment: we're slowly automating our way out of the most unskilled jobs (and increasingly skilled jobs too). That too will be a challenge.

</comment><comment><USER26> There are a lot of countries that lobby for their citizens to enjoy an open border policy where their people can be able to freely come to the US to live, work and own property. Oddly though, these countries do not have open border policies where Americans can come to live, work and own property in their countries.

Let's say you are British. You can move pretty freely throughout much of Europe, Australia, Canada and New Zealand, with a minimum of hassle.

If you are American, the situation is very different. There are very few countries you can easily emigrate to. Yet most countries want rights for their people to be able to immigrate to the US.

I would be in favor of a global open border policy. Eliminate passports, visas, and all restrictions on the flow of people. As opposed to now where through WTO style agreements goods travel much more freely than people.

But I don't support one sided policies where people can move easily in one direction but not the other.

</comment><comment><USER27> Funny, just today I stumbled upon this video while randomly strolling through the avenues of YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d70KhYzBhT4>

</comment><comment><USER28> The bottom line is this: How do you assess one's talent? If this were possible then a system could work, otherwise it will never be perfect.

</comment><comment><USER29> Americans need to support the Startup Visa: [http://trendguardian.blogspot.com/2010/03/support-startup- vi...](http://trendguardian.blogspot.com/2010/03/support-startup-visa.html)

I think Obama is starting to hear too: [http://trendguardian.blogspot.com/2011/04/startup-america- te...](http://trendguardian.blogspot.com/2011/04/startup-america-tell-white- house-how-to.html)

</comment><comment><USER30> how many immigrants would it be necessary to let in the country to have one of these success stories?? If we let in only the best and brightest, then success is assured! But if we do the right thing, and let nature take it's course....Assuming that the person is a 1 percenter, then it would only take one hundred people to create wealth. On the other hand, the united states has 300 million people, if 25 percent of the successful startups are by foreigners, then that would mean about 75 million people would have to enter the country to create 25 percent. All for 15 or 20 THOUSAND jobs. What will the rest do??

</comment><comment><USER31> I distinctly remember 2001-2003 during in the post dot-com, post-911 recession when there was loud outcry to cancel all visas to open up jobs for American- born workers. And in subsequent years these ideas took on the form of erecting a wall around Mexico, and eliminating technology-related visa categories, and ending up in today's environment of extreme hostility toward business travellers at American ports of entry.

<comment><USER15> Do other business travelers experience this extreme hostility at US ports of entry? I don't do nearly as much international travel as I used to, so I'm really interested in hearing others' experiences.

<comment><USER32> Yes, i am french (from France), been living in Montreal for 5years know, speaks perfect english (no silly french accent), but anytime i have to go to the US i get treated like shit by immigration agent when they see my passport. And it's been consistent across the 20+ times i've had to cross the border.

Sometimes they even go into what i believe to be none of their business, last christmas i was coming back from France, going through Washington (just a 6h stop), and despise the fact i had my ticket saying i was going to Montreal, my canadian working visa, the U.S. agent bombarded me with question on what i was gonna do in canada, where i was staying, on a not so friendly tone as if i was lying.

This is why i now refuse whenever possible to go through the U.S..

As for the Visa situation, it is really a pain, i had numerous companies contacting me -thinking i was Canadian as i list my town as Montreal- from SF or Seattle, then after successful interviews, getting refused by they H.R. department because i'm French and VISA paperwork is either too much or just not even possible for them.

<comment><USER33> >> the U.S. agent bombarded me with question on what i was gonna do in canada, where i was staying, on a not so friendly tone as if i was lying<<

This seems to be pretty standard. They are trying to catch you on a lie. I don't know about the "not so friendly tone" though. I guess it depends on the agent and what kind of day/issues he is having.

<comment><USER32> Yeah but last time i checked, Canada is not part of the U.S. and with a visa and ticket, that should be enough for him, if somebody wants to grill me it should be a Canadian Immigration agent.

<comment><USER4> [AFTER EDIT: I'm withdrawing an earlier statement in the first posting of this comment after doing some fact-checking prompted by the reply below. Thanks. I'll look up some more analysis of the current policy and its historical origins over the next few days. The sentence below was the last sentence in the original version of this comment.]

It's regrettable that today skepticism at the border is so general--surely most visitors to the United States, including you, mean no harm to the United States--but there are legal problems with being selective about whom to interrogate, so almost every visitor is questioned.

<comment><USER34> That some of the 9/11 attackers entered the US through Canada is a thoroughly debunked myth. Plus, all the attackers entered the US legally, with valid visas. The startling persistence of the myth attests to its power to support a particular side of the debate about 'illegals' or 'weak borders'.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumors_about_the_September_11_a...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumors_about_the_September_11_attacks#Claims_that_terrorists_entered_the_United_States_through_Canada)

Misinformation: rumors later shown to be false:

[...]

Claims that terrorists entered the United States through Canada On September 12, 2001, Vincent Cannistraro, a former CIA chief of counter-intelligence told the press that five of the terrorists had entered Maine from Canada via a ferry from Yarmouth, Nova Scotia and/or a remote border point in Saint- Théophile, Quebec near Jackman, Maine.[1] The myth was revived again in April 2009 when Janet Napolitano, the United States Secretary of Homeland Security, informed a Canadian television interviewer that some of the terrorist- hijackers who carried out the September 11 attacks entered the United States from Canada. In the same month, senator John McCain also told Fox News that some of the 9/11 hijackers did come through Canada.[2]

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Increase supply of labor, decrease wages. Econ 101, folks. The Wall Street types benefit from immigration. There might be "more jobs" but there will be lower pay checks. Working Americans are the targets in this upper class scam. Polls show that most Americans are for moderating immigration. Strangely, rich Democrats are the ones most for open borders and "free" trade. The party of labor? No way.

<comment><USER36> Decreased wages for those who have jobs, _plus more people having jobs_ , might be an excellent tradeoff even if it wouldn't appeal to a 100% selfish person who has a job and doesn't fear losing it.

And you need to be awfully careful about what "polls show that most Americans are for". For example, polls show that most Americans would like to see US foreign aid reduced from about 25% of GDP to about 10% of the federal budget. The trouble is that the actual level of US foreign aid is about 1% of the federal budget. So, do "polls show" that most Americans would like foreign aid cut by 2.5x, or that most Americans would like foreign aid increased by 10x? -- In the absence of more information about what "most Americans" actually think the level of immigration is, and what they think its impact is, polls purporting to show that most Americans would like more or less immigration are pretty uninformative about what would actually benefit most Americans, or what they would choose if they had better information.

It would be better to keep party politics out of this. (Though from what you've written I wonder whether party politics are your only reason for being interested in the matter at all.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> The editor are modding all dissent in this page down. Can't handle another side of the story ? Shame.

<comment><USER38> "Editor"? That's not how HN works.

</comment></comment><comment><USER39> I disagree. Unless USA aligns Immigrant & Non-immigrant Visas and Outsourcing to Caste system in India and Human Rights in China, American middle class will be destroyed. [http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/29/un-says-indias- cas...](http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/29/un-says-indias-caste-system- a-human-rights-abuse.htm) [http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide- show-1-tech-...](http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-tech- apple-workers-forced-to-sign-no-suicide-pledge/20110504.htm)</comment>


Lawrence Ferlinghetti Recounts More Than Six Decades of Life in San Francisco - <AUTHOR> http://ww2.kqed.org/news/2015/03/03/at-95-ferlinghetti-recounts-more-than-six-decades-of-life-in-sf/

<comment><USER2> This is pretty funny coming from Ferlinghetti. I wonder how many times he and his friends were accused of lacking manners and having no respect for "high culture." He spent decades building a bookstore, a publishing company, holding art exhibits, and encouraging anyone who would listen to come to San Francisco. Any list of the folks most responsible for its gentrification would have to include his name.

He did what so many are doing now: come for the adventure, stay to run a business.

</comment><comment><USER3> Ferlinghetti's $65/mo rent in North Beach, adjusted for inflation, would be about $584/mo today. Unthinkably low in central parts of New York City, the Bay Area, or other first-tier metropolitan areas. The workings of the market have seen the attractions of these places, and reserved even the outlying and interstitial areas for rich people. And that is a loss.

But Ferlinghetti's rent reflected that the area was not so built up then, not considered so desirable as it is today. It was an underappreciated gem. In other places, there are other underappreciated gems like North Beach in 1951 (edit: not exactly the same, for the same people, obviously). If you want Ferlinghetti's deal, you'll have to look for one of those. Probably not within commute distance of San Francisco, though.

</comment><comment><USER4> The Detour app has a great tour of SF taking you in the footsteps of some of the Beats and their contemporaries, including Ferlinghetti. Took it last week when my sister came to town, highly recommended.

</comment><comment><USER5> I wonder how much time he spends out of San Francisco, because as someone who lives in Texas and has almost no grasp on how the internet and Silicon Valley have influenced San Francisco over the years, it's still quite unique to me and I consider every visit there to be a treat. It's all relative, I guess.

</comment><comment><USER6> Sad to see a giant reduced to yelling at clouds. I say that as someone Who enjoys a good cloud scolding.</comment>


Show HN: Chrome Crypto Ticker - <AUTHOR> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/crypto-status/jhdfbnhbjoefbemgebjomaokpcagjplm?hn <comment><USER2> Well done. Ive tried out a lot of these crypto tickers in the past and this seems to be one of the better ones. Where are you getting the data from? You seem to support a huge amount of coins I've never heard of.</comment>


The age you feel means more than your actual birthdate - happy-go-lucky http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180712-the-age-you-feel-means-more-than-your-actual-birthdate <comment><AUTHOR> My age is not something I feel. It's something I am. To me "I feel like I'm x" where x is a number is just an absurd statement. My health, my mood, etc does not have some quantifiable link to my date of birth and the time that has elapsed since.</comment>


Ask HN: Do your users actually use those social bookmarking icons (ShareThis/AddThis)? - <AUTHOR>

I don't use them so I find it hard to imagine that others do. Has anyone found these to be a useful addition to the their site (based on tracking statistics)? <comment><USER2> On my non-technical site, I got about 1 add in the last 100,000 page views. Its mostly a waste of screen space and user attention.

However, when I publish pillar reference content aimed at geeks, the simple Delicious button which shows number of people who already added it performs VERY well for me. (Incidentally: that social proof is totally missing with ShareThis/AddThis/etc. I wish they would incorporate it.)

Delicious also generates long term traffic, whereas most of the other social sites do not.

<comment><AUTHOR> That's really good information. Thanks. I may try the Delicious button for a while and see how that works.

<comment><USER2> I'd suggest reserving it for pillar content. When I say pillar content, I mean "If I had a CV, this article would be on it." Otherwise you encourage blindness of it in your users. (A major problem with ShareThis, etc.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, I see what you mean about blindness.

And just so we're on the same page, you're talking about this, right:

<http://delicious.com/help/savebuttons>

I just added it to my site but I don't see any option for displaying the statistics you were referring to - i.e. how many people have bookmarked something with it (except on the delicious website, of course). Maybe you're using a different button?

<comment><USER2> I'm using the button you can see way at the bottom of this page, which is right below instructions for implementing it. (Copy/paste a line of Javascript as I recall.)

<http://www.bingocardcreator.com/articles/rails-seo-tips.htm>

<comment><AUTHOR> Ah. Cool. Thanks a million.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> i use bookmarklets. however, the occasional social bookmarking icon will make me think to share the thing using my bookmarklets.

<comment><AUTHOR> that's an argument i've heard in favor of them (serves as a reminder). good to know that it has that effect for you.

<comment><USER3> yeah, they at least serve some purpose.

i feel like a better implementation of them would be something similar to how the digg button works. create some sort of widget that determines what networks you're logged into, and only display those buttons. that way, its not a wall of buttons, but a custom menu of the sites you're at least making use of as a registered user.

<comment><AUTHOR> should be possible by reading the browser's cookies for each of those sites, assuming the user is using autologin. but i suspect publishers might be reluctant to take away buttons for potential bookmarkers just in case they don't use autologin.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Why Did I Just Buy That Zcash Mining Contract? - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@cjremus/why-did-i-just-buy-that-zcash-mining-contract-f7700501dde4#.76swrcn2l <comment><USER2> Ten minutes on bitcointalk.org would have shown you that it's almost certainly a case of "Another day. Another cryptocoin release".

99.9999....% (recurring to infinity) of which make money for no-one but their developer —who, after pumping and dumping their current coin, will be back in a few months with another "But this time it's different!" release.

As far as cryptocoins go, there's only one game in town; Bitcoin. Unfortunately most of us missed the boat on that one, as far as getting rich quick goes. But it's the forlorn hope of getting in on the ground floor for the 'next Bitcoin' that keeps speculators lining the pockets of the developers of the literally hundreds of other BTC wannabes that have sprung up since.

Don't believe the hype!

Even if you do believe that hype, definitely don't believe in paid mining contracts. Simple logical deduction will tell you that's a scam!

</comment><comment><USER3> That was funny! I expected the post to explain why Zcash is a good investment, an exciting technology, etc. But the author explains in some detail that, indeed, he didn't really know what Zcash is and is genuinely unsure why he bought the contract.</comment>


Headin' to California, with an aching in my heart... - <AUTHOR>

<comment><USER2> The highest density of competent geeks I've found in this area was at <http://shdh.org> . I had a lot of fun drinking beer (Old Rasputin Imperial Russian Stout and Stone IPA 4tw) and geeking out with fellow programmers. I met a Google millionaire who was developing his own Lisp dialect with Pythonic features, and had a long discussion with another guy about cache performance problems caused by smart pointers that use atomic refcounting.

May have been skewed by the fact the only one I've been to was on the evening following Startup School, but I was told that all of the SHDH events have about the same turnout.

</comment><comment><USER3> I'd say you're on your way to bigger and better things. By making the decision to leave a comfortable job you're already ahead of 90% of the population. Most people seek stability not opportunity. Move there, talk to people, attend events, network, and you'll find something that you can do well and enjoy doing. And if it doesn't work out, so what! You'll probably remember the time as the best adventure in your life. Go for it.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> So let's say I quit my investment banking job this summer and head to California with $10K in my pocket and hope in my heart. What's the next step? College, a tech job, hanging arround coffee shops looking for cofounders? I have a rudimentary knowledge of PHP and Ruby (I built a photo gallery in the former), an abstract mathematical background, and I love talking in front of crowds. What would you do if you were me?

<comment><USER4> _"What would you do if you were me?"_

I'd start learning to be more self-reliant and stop seeking advice on what I should do with my life from random people on the internet.

<comment><USER5> Nope, sorry but that's just wrong and totally unhelpful.

Asking for advice from peers who are actively involved in what you want to do is a great idea.

Since you are early in your dev career, I would highly recommend finding an existing startup to join with more experienced developers and learning from them - both what they do wrong and what they do right. Hopefully more of the latter ;)

When I left my first bay area job I almost did my own startup at that point. However, when I was honest with myself, I realized I wasn't ready to do it alone and needed a team. So I looked around and applied at several startups. I felt great about one particular startup where the founder was super-smart in business, but also very mature and kind. I don't think I ever saw him get upset or show the least unkindness during the whole startup phase. And he had plenty to be frustrated with, believe me. Anyway, I learned a ton of good and bad through that experience and the company was acquired by Intuit for $60 million. I was really lucky in that regard. Most startups will not have an exit so quick or so profitable.

So that's my recommendation based on my limited experience. Good luck!

<comment><USER4> He's asking "What should I do with my life now?" and you answered him as if the the question was "How can I be like you?".

I think he has some serious soul searching to do and that's what I was trying to communicate. I could have said it more gently I suppose.

<comment><USER5> Sorry to continue an argumentative tone, but I just really don't like to see young hopeful guys ask for advice only to get slapped with an unwarranted "grow up you baby" response.

If you actually read his question, it's clear that he is asking very specifically for advice on this situation:

1) Moving to California

2) Wants cofounders

3) Has junior dev skills in PHP/Ruby

4) Has 10K in savings

Doesn't sound much like the meta-physical angst question as you suggest...

<comment><AUTHOR> Exactly. Right now my best plan is to wait until I can get into a grad school out there to begin the startup process. Grad school would connect me with like minded people and keep me alive until we can open the doors on our business. However, that's at least a year and a half away, and I'd like a plan to do it sooner. But if I just show up in CA with a "startup or bust" t-shirt, I don't know how to get the show off the ground.

<comment><USER5> _"I don't know how to get the show off the ground"_

Exactly.

The good news is that there are plenty of startups that already have the "show off the ground". Join the most interesting startup you can find with a team you 'click' with, then work your tail off with them. You'll learn more than you ever dreamt ;)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Get hired somewhere. Check out the job boards on techcrunch, siliconbeat, linkedin. Go to every local conference. You don't have to be registered. Twitter. Blog. It will work out. :-)

</comment><comment><USER7> I'd look for the girl out there, with love in her eyes and flowers...

<comment><USER8> heh</comment></comment>


Joel Spolsky: Fire and Motion - <AUTHOR> https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/06/fire-and-motion/ <comment><USER2> I respect Joel and his experience. I just don't see connection between first part of article (unable to start) and second one (fire and motion). Can you make it more clear for me?</comment>