16-inch MacBook Pro - <AUTHOR> https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/11/apple-introduces-16-inch-macbook-pro-the-worlds-best-pro-notebook/ <comment><USER3> I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full- size left and right arrow keys.

The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is still no worthy substitute, but perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires.

<comment><USER4> It turns out that people who buy laptops -- a mobile-ish form factor differentiated from a tablet by its keyboard -- might _really really care about keyboards_ as the main interface between user and device.

I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent.

This shows some real care regarding laptops as a form factor and puts them back in the running for a lot of buyers, including me. But there's still one major issue that I don't see people talking much about -- the way that Apple's decisions regarding storage (namely soldering it to the board AND making it so that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure) increases consumer risk as well as decreasing consumer choice:

[https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer- Dat...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Data- Migration-Tool-connector-in-the-the-2018-MacBook-Pro-with-Touch- Bar.318186.0.html)

 _It increases risk of data loss_. That's a choice that impacts the day-to-day experience much less than the keyboard, which explains why the keyboard has gotten much more attention, and it really is nice that a company arguably built on attention to experience returned to that aspect of it. But this kind of choice makes a huge difference in a moment of failure, and it's at least equally user-hostile, especially in a product bearing the name "pro" where data recovery can be a matter of business continuity.

I suppose that one can argue a responsible professional will be using network and external backups (and of course all responsible professionals worth considering or selling anything to _will_ do this, right?), and so this isn't necessary, and Apple's thing (wise or unwise) is that they frequently reconsider and eliminate things that aren't crucial. But redundancy in some areas is wise, and I can't see what they think eliminating both removability AND emergency direct access when it come to storage actually buys them. Even if one assumes it's a lock-in action for service, it makes the actual service more difficult and costly.

I'm liking the keyboard correction. I just bought a 2014 MBP to replace an older failing MBP, so I'm not in the market for something else for a year or two, but when that comes up, I'll be seriously looking at the 16" as an option. And this will be what I'm thinking about.

<comment><USER5> >It increases risk of data loss.

I realize that this is idealistic of me but _data loss should never be an issue_. This is 2019 and backups have been drilled into everyone's heads for years and years and years. You can still access the drives in these via Target Disk mode (and I've had to do a few recoveries through that so I know it works) and it's likely that the pros outweigh the cons.

<comment><USER6> On the other hand:

\- There's the adage in the enterprise space that, if you haven't tested your backups, then you don't really have backups. Most consumers, and even professional users, aren't likely going to be in a position to verify their backups before they actually need them.

\- Not even being able to do simple repairs or upgrades massively reduces the ROI. This is especially for high-end, professional equipment.

When I first started my current job, everyone was given the option of a Thinkpad with linux or a Mac. Both units had 16GB of RAM. When it became apparent that 16GB was insufficient for my workloads, it was simple for IT to upgrade my Thinkpad to 32GB. My coworkers with Macs were not so fortunate.

<comment><USER7> > There's the adage in the enterprise space that, if you haven't tested your > backups, then you don't really have backups. Most consumers, and even > professional users, aren't likely going to be in a position to verify their > backups before they actually need them.

This is why having more than just one computer is beneficial. Because I jump between multiple laptops, desktops, and other devices, and perform my work and other activities, I bring with me copies of my data between devices by necessity, whenever I need that data.

And I think that is actually the way to do it. Not to focus so much on trying to keep multiple copies of all of your data since forever, because then you get bogged down in details about keeping everything in sync and everything organized, but instead to just focus on the data that you actually need, and being conscious about making copies of data when you use it.

In the past, when I was using fewer computers, I had one computer that was sort of the canonical location of data. And I'd access it over the network and work on my data there. It had great uptime too. On the order of months. Then one day there was a power outage and that was when I realized that I had no idea what I had set as the password for the full disk encryption on said machine. Ooops :^)

I lost a fair bit of data that day. But I learned something too, and that learning has shaped my habits in how I deal with data and I can proudly say that in the years that have passed since then I have been able to hold on to all of the data that is most important to me.

I _almost_ got blindsided by 2FA a couple of years ago, because I didn't know that the keys for the second factor were intentionally kept device-local. But thankfully I was changing phones with the old one still functional and in my possession and was waiting with performing factory reset until after I'd set up the new phone and seen whether or not I had all that I needed. So because of that all I needed to do was to log in with the 2FA of the old phone on each service I had it on, temporarily disable 2FA and then reenable it with the new phone and when I did that I also saved all of the new 2FA keys so that in the event that I might actually end up having to switch phones because the new one broke in the future I would not end up locked out of my accounts.

<comment><USER8> If you're using iOS, Google Authenticator seeds are indeed backed up if you do an encrypted local backup via iTunes, iMazing, etc.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> It's hilarious to me that their own marketing image has two dongles plugged into the laptop so that the user can still use USB.

Apple please for the love of usability: please give me back USB. I AM the pro that you want to feature in every one of your marketing videos. I have a music studio in my house, I build interactive lighting installations for the biggest music festivals in the world, I build custom hardware controllers for fire effects that travel all over the country, I travel around the world teaching people how to build hardware devices, and when home I spend the majority of my time teaching and building software that people love; I use my laptop for over 10 hours a day.

All of this stuff uses USB. ALL OF IT. Having to carry around stupid dongles all the time is the biggest pain in my ass when I'm trying to do all of this stuff. PLEASE give me back USB, you can even call it the "stupid loser old crappy loser lame macbook for loser non pros". I don't care. This nonsense minimalist sleek design stuff is actually harming my productivity.

<comment><USER10> Things change, deal with it. I've swapped USB cables to USB-C cables. Only USB drives, which i rarely use anymore require an adapter. Meanwhile, I can use all 4 ports to:

\- Run a display

\- Charge my laptop

\- Charge a phone

\- Connect a drive

I can even use a single port to both charge the laptop and run a screen with multiple USB devices attached to it.

I now need to daisy chain converters to use my PS/2 mouse on my MacBook Pro though, so that's a bit of a hassle.

Also, I can use the same charger and dongles for my work notebook, which is Windows based. I wish every new thing was USB-C, because I love it.

(This is a copy of a previous comment, because I feel it is relevant again.)

<comment><USER11> Having 4 USB-C's is a bit like having 4 Ferraris. Sometimes you need something a bit more practical. People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years. Having to use a dongle for USB-A on a 16" macbook is pretty ridiculous. There's still a billion USB-A accessories out there and will be for a long time. Apple jumped the gun in a major way. This wasn't like dropping the floppy disc or CD-rom drive considering how small the USB-A port is.

<comment><USER12> > People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years.

Possibly. But they'll be using it for the next 100 if no one ever removes it from anything.

<comment><USER13> The floppy drive died because a better option came out. If USB-C is truly better, than all new accessories would use it.

There needs to be a transition period where everyone has USB-C _and_ USB-A so that the peripherals can naturally move to the better technology.

Right now I've never seed a good USB-C to USB-A converter. I work at a lot of conferences, and any time a speaker comes with a new MacBook and a USB adaptor, it's a disaster. They all suck.

<comment><USER14> They removed USB-A about a year before they should have, but now the industry has moved on. We can talk about it as a mistake in the past, but it would be wack to put USB-A back onto these devices.

<comment><USER15> How can we say "the industry has moved on" when the second piece of media on the linked announcement page has someone doing music production with a visible USB-C -> USB-A dongle connecting some rack-eared music gear. There's even a second dongle on their left that I don't recognize. I long for the C-only future, but we're not there yet. Apple's decision to go C-only always seemed to be an aesthetic one to me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Can someone explain to me how Apple can justify only including a 720p FaceTime HD camera into the "the world's best pro notebook"?

The last iPhone that had this FaceTime camera was the 6S, released in 2015. Since the iPhone 7 (2016) the phones have had at least a 1080p FaceTime camera. Given that FaceTime / Skype calls are such a common use case and rarely anyones uses external webcams anymore, why doesn't Apple use the existing camera system of the iPhone 11 for the MacBook?

Seriously, if I pay north of $4000 dollars for a laptop, why do I get an obsolete camera?

<comment><USER17> A phone camera is used to capture moments you want to preserve for posterity. A laptop camera is used for conference calls and no one needs to see all my facial flaws in 4K detail.

So, no, I don't consider this in any way to be a dealbreaker.

<comment><USER18> > _A laptop camera is used for conference calls_

And youtube videos.

I agree that 4K can be considered excessive, but 1080p would be the appropriate resolution in 2019 for a high end machine.

<comment><USER19> I think if you're the type of person that records youtube videos regularly, chances are you probably already own an external camera with specialized functionality.

<comment><USER20> How does that address the original point in anyway? This laptop's base price is almost $4000 USD. That's a lot of money to spend on a laptop and one would hope that it'd at least come with a decent webcam.

<comment><USER19> Judging by the number of upvotes it got, I'd say it addresses the original point rather well.

The laptop is already expensive. You want to make it even _more_ expensive by adding a webcam that will undouactually cares about that kind of thing?

<comment><USER20> You can't unilaterally claim what people do or do not care about, though. That's reverse rationalization. A 720p webcam is however, objectively, third class in 2019.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Would it materially harm a company with a trillion dollar market cap to offer a version of this without the touchbar (thus yielding a lower price), so people can afford to upgrade the soldered memory and NVMe drive?

Would it also harm them to make a version that didn't have soldered memory/NVMe drive?

Ultimately, this is why I switched to a Dell Latitude. Being user hostile to basic memory/disk replacement doesn't fly with me when spending $1500+ on a machine.

And if replacing either breaks the crypto chain - I don't need a black box T2 chip, I'll do my own disk encryption.

<comment><USER22> One way Apple has become a trillion dollar company is by minimizing skus. Options mean inventory, development and test costs etc... and can be sources of quality problems triggering warranty repairs or replacements. Doing few things allows one to streamline both product development and manufacturing.

<comment><USER23> Except they still offered options, but without modularity, so you had more SKUs to track in your logistics - you still need to track the parts you solder down, except now instead of shipping a base system and being able to make a "CTO" version, or just let authorised resellers with authorised service points apply the right parts, you need to wait till a whole extra SKU gets moved through thousands of kilometers of logistic chain for your one tiny order.

Maybe the experience in USA with Apple Stores is different, but when forced to buy a Mac by work recently I had to deal with some ridiculous wait times just for asking for 32G ram.

<comment><USER24> It's so much better in the USA that I wait until I visit home to do anything Apple related, whether it's to order a new custom laptop or to send my laptop in for service.

For example, I needed my logic board + keyboard replaced and it landed on my doorstep 24 hours later.

Definitely a different experience everywhere else I've been when dealing with Apple whether it's Mexico City or Lisbon. Most places are even lucky to have an actual Apple Store rather than some sort of certified 3rd party with questionable liability.

<comment><USER25> >> For example, I needed my logic board + keyboard replaced and it landed on my doorstep 24 hours later.

You mean a new unit? I highly doubt the repair happened in 24 hours.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> For others who might be wondering, this replaces the 15-inch MacBook Pro. There's a small increase in size (15 vs 16):

\- Thickness: 1.55cm to 1.62cm (+0.7mm, +4.5%)

\- Width: 34.93cm to 35.79cm (+0.86cm, +2.5%)

\- Depth: 24.07cm to 24.59cm (+0.52cm, +2.2%)

\- Weight: 1.83kg to 2.0kg (+170gr, +9.3%)

The display alone is ~1.3cm wider (and ~0.7cm higher), so there was a small reduction in bezel sizes, allowing the screen to grow more than the rest of the hardware.

<comment><USER27> I have a question for you Mac users. Assuming that you don't treat the machine badly, no extra care (e.g. never open up to do maintenance), and have to carry it around half of the time. How long do you think a Macbook would last in average?

For the Lenovo I'm using I'd say about 5 years because I break things so easily...it's reaching retirement.

<comment><USER28> Up until almost 5 years ago, before switching to a Macbook Pro, I used to have various laptops with both Windows and Ubuntu. Here's my belief: A non-Apple laptop that lasts 2+ years, without having to be regularly formatted, without improving the hardware, without giving up performance or needing who knows what kind of tweaking/cleaning, upgrade after upgrade, is a myth. It doesn't exist.

Sure, I know plenty of people who've had the same Lenovo/HP/whatever laptop for 5, even 10 years but every single time I personally used their laptop I was embarassed at how bad the experience was. Sluggish, ugly, with fans spinning like they needed to put out a fire.

After almost 5 years the 13" 2015 Macbook Pro I'm currently writing on _hasn 't lost one beat_. It's as snappy and as usable as the very first day. I haven't formatted once, I've easily kept it up to date, I only replaced the battery because it was lasting 4 hours instead of the original 6-7. I can still edit videos, run VMs, play not-too-demanding games, do Photoshop, like the first day I bought it. And everything makes me think I'll be able to do so for the next 2-3 years, at least.

I've travelled with it to 10 countries and dropped it 5 or 6 times. There are multiple dents on the corners but, damn, this thing is tough!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Holy heck, they re-added a physical escape key. That's a huge improvement. a slight shame they didn't just move the touchbar up and re-add the F key row too, but it is a good compromise and improvement regardless.

This could be the one a lot of people have been waiting for if the new switches/design pans out.

PS - Although I might be an unusual demographic as I touch type and wouldn't use the touchbar regardless (since I look at the screen, not the backs of my hands while I interact with a Mac).

<comment><USER30> Whats with you guys and the ESC key? It's so far away do you actually use it? I map caps-lock to ESC/Hyper key which I find pretty useful.

<comment><USER31> > _Whats with you guys and the ESC key? It 's so far away do you actually use > it?_

You're joking. You realize this forum is filled with programmers and other digital creative professionals, right?

<comment><USER32> I am both a digital creative professional and a developer/programmer and I can't remember when was the last time I pressed the escape key. If anything, it might have been to exit a full-screen video where the UI had mysteriously disappeared because some crappy website couldn't deal with an ad-blocker.

Programmers and creative professionals don't unilaterally love or need the ESC key like you're suggesting.

<comment><USER33> For me frequent usecase for ESC is to hide some popup that you opened by accident.

Like "Save As" dialog / rename file / Purchase SublimeText License / etc. In macOS you can hide many types of dialogs with ESC

<comment><USER32> That's fine but you can still do that without the physical key, can't you? I'm still able to escape out of dialogs like that without needing a physical key.

<comment><USER31> You can also type on a smartphone without a physical keyboard...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> Don't forget that the Touch Bar costs an additional $400 for consumers.

The 2015 model was the best MacBook Pro. Perhaps the best laptop yet.

<comment><USER35> It always seemed backwards that the touch bar is a pro feature. Aren't pros the group that learn all the keyboard commands? The touch bar seems like it would be most useful to non-pro users.

<comment><USER36> Can you do audio or video scrubbing with FN keys? Have you used touchbar with Photoshop or similar apps? A Pro User doesn't mean "software developer" — there are a lot of other pros that really love the touchbar.

<comment><USER35> Now that I think about this more, if you are right, then why don't the Mac Pros come with a touchbar keyboard? Video and photo editing are probably the primary uses for the Mac Pro.

<comment><USER37> Because all of those use cases already have purpose built peripherals that would be more appropriate to use with a stationary workstation. Laptops benefit from something more portable and general purpose.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Thicker, Escape Key, larger battery, better keyboard... it's _almost_ as if Jonny Ive has left Apple!

<comment><USER39> Apple should just release a really really expensive version of the air. That way people looking for a designer laptop have something they can throw too much money at, and the rest of us can have a mbp that makes some allowances for performance.

Edit: I may be overly snarky, but I find it hard to imagine that recent mbp models were not influenced by the social clout that the iphone brought to the apple brand.

<comment><USER40> Apple had social clout way before the iPhone. Macs were always expensive.

Apple created a twentieth anniversary Mac (TAM) that cost $7,500 in 1998 and was delivered to your house by a Limo. The driver wore white gloves and hand delivered the TAM.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> 64GB RAM is like "hallelujah". Doing enterprise dev with Docker + Java is pretty horrible with 16GB on my 2017 MBP.

The fact that this review didn't even once mention the fact that this machine is now thicker & bigger and yet they didn't add any useful ports back in is amazing.

I still hate that the 2017 one I have has only USB-C + Headphone jack. I appreciate that it still has the headphone jack.

But at our office we all got OWC Thunderbolt 3 Docks @ $300/desk and the whole experience sucks.

<comment><USER42> What are you using that isn't USB C/Bluetooth at this point? Honest question.

<comment><USER43> Literally every single TV or projector I've ever given a presentation on

Ethernet

(micro-)SD card

Keyboard

Mouse

Displays

Flashing microcontrollers (technically could be done over BT but it is a pain in the ass)

Gamepad

I've bought dongles/docking stations for all of these devices but it is a huge hassle when traveling, which is a use case a laptop should be able to excel at. Adding just a single USB-A port and HDMI would be a complete gamechanger for me. Apple wouldn't be able to sell as many of their $70 dongles though.

<comment><USER44> Logitech mice work better with the receiver than over bluetooth.

I'm making due with one dongle right now because I have a Thunderbolt adapter and I've daisy chained all my peripherals off of my old Cinema display.

But it's started glitching out with USB devices.

<comment><USER45> > Logitech mice work better with the receiver than over bluetooth.

I've found the opposite to be true, with my MX Master 3 using the receiver resulted in some odd "bald spots" on the mat that made no sense, switching to bluetooth fixed it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> This is Apple going all in on pro for this laptop.

The display is fantastic all around, 64 GB of ram, 8 GB of DDR6 VRAM, 8 cores, biggest battery FAA will allow on planes, 8 TB SSD, etc.

This will also be able to connect to Apple's upcoming 6K 32-inch display.

This is a very impressive update all around and it shows Apple putting a lot of space between their pro laptops and the MBA and iPad Pro now. The lineup is starting to make a lot of sense again.

<comment> w-m When people cite the great feat of putting in a 100Wh battery into this laptop they seem to keep forgetting that the 2012-2014 models had a 95Wh battery and the 2015 model had a 99.5Wh battery.

Only when flattening the design for the 2016 year did they reduce it to 76Wh.

<comment><USER47> We're hoping undoing mistakes is a good step towards actual progress

<comment><USER48> In the specific case of the battery it's unlikely to get any bigger than 100Wh as that would make it illegal to take on planes in the US.

<comment><USER49> Some ruggedized laptops have two separate batteries for hot-swapping while keeping the PC on, and this way you can take a laptop with more than 100 Wh on a plane. The same way I take a 95 Wh laptop with a 75 Wh power bank. So never say never :)

<comment><USER50> I've never had a good experience with swappable batteries.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> 11 years ago I bought a 15" MacBook Pro, the first model year with the unibody design. I'm still using it almost every day for web browsing, watching videos, editing documents, etc.

In 2008, it cost $2,400. The new 16" released today costs... $2,400.

<comment><USER52> I have the same 15" from late 2008 sitting in storage at home. Surprised you're still using it! What OS version?

Sometimes I like to look at the price of Apple stock in 2008 and wonder how much money I would have today if I had instead bought 2.5k USD worth of shares in 2008 instead of the laptop - it's depressing.

<comment> yoz-y I'm using a 15" from mid 2009 every day still, it's on Mojave (with dos1dude's patch). Some software starts to flake out but it's still perfectly usable. (i need a custom homebrew patch because all new binaries require architecture beyond Penryn)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER53> "I'm so glad this model has a touchbar"

"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar"

things no one ever said.

<comment><USER54> I initially found the touchbar to mostly be a gimmick, new for the sake of being new and not really bringing anything useful to the table.

A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar. Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once.

That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13" model.

<comment><USER55> I respect your opinion, but all of the examples you gave are already possible with Fn-keys.

I think what the touchbar brings is always active tutorial/reminder as to what's possible with the touchbar. Due to it's very nature you don't have to be taught what's on there, you can see, you then don't have to remember/rely on building up muscle memory.

I imagine it sucks for accessibility. I'd still want one before my faculties faulter, I imagine I'd get some use out of it with my IDE.

<comment><USER56> Most computer users aren't hardcore users. Of course not scientific, but I know a lot of users that are intimidated by strange FN keys and are glad the touchbar clearly labels the current function of the virtual keys. We as HN crowd and hardcore freaks need to accept that no major hardware company can survive by delevoping for us niche users.

<comment><USER57> You're right, but it's not just hardware.

I was part of the spell correction team at Google, and we made sure that we aren't overly aggressive even though lots of people mistype their web query.

Nowdays I find it much harder to research rare things on Google, and I have to undo the automatic correction that the spell corrector does all the time (which is OK as long as it's easy to undo).

<comment><USER58> A question for you, given your expertise: why do most (all?) spell checking/correcting not take into account key locality (is, neighboring key accidentally pressed). A big one for me is hitting n or b instead of space. I think it has gotten better recently, but has a loooong way to go. Just curious on your thoughts. Cheers!

<comment><USER57> It was there from the first iteration of spelling a long time ago (the first iteration was just looking at misspelling frequencies, second iteration 12 years ago moved to understanding multiple spelling mistakes/mistypes)

If you see these kind of easy-to-correct mistakes, it probably means that the spell corrector wasn't given that big attention in the past 10 years.

<comment><USER57> I just realized that you wrote space....that's harder as the spell corrector works on words separately :(

I was working on URL corrections part that didn't need to use segmentation, so I don't know the details though.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Imagine they offered the same configuration with and without TouchBar, with the model with TouchBar costing $400 more - how many people would choose the model with? I bet less than 5%.

Is Apple afraid to offer this because it clearly would show that almost no one is ready to pay for it?

Even from this audience, who of you would be willing to pay the premium for the TouchBar?

<comment><USER59> I would pay a premium for NOT having a touch bar. I want physical keys for brightness/volume etc.

<comment><USER16> Same for me. I would easily pay $100 to NOT have the TouchBar.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> John Gruber's review

[https://daringfireball.net/](https://daringfireball.net/)

And before everyone accuses him of being an Apple fanboy and biased, there is no disputing that he is very much a keyboard snob. He hated the last generation keyboard and he called it out during his initial review. He also famously still prefers an old ADB Apple Keyboard and he never bought a laptop with the old one.

He's also linked to a lot of articles criticizing it.

If he praises it, I think you can trust him.

Edit:

And Marco Arment's review. He's never pulled punches when it comes to Apple's hardware, their development tools, or the quality of the OS frameworks. He's gushing over the review unit.

[https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16](https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16)

<comment><USER24> The issue with the keyboard is whether it's good after a month or more of use, not how good it is fresh out of the box.

I thought the previous macbook pro felt great for a week out of the box. Then switches started breaking and keycaps started coming off within the first three months.

In fact, the issue seemed to be that it feeling good out of the box was the only testing Apple did on it.

<comment><USER60> True.

But neither Gruber nor Marco Arment [1] liked it out of the box. Marco did buy one - he buys everything. You can listen to his review on the latest Accidental Tech Podcast.

[1] just for those who don't know, Arment is probably one of the best known indie IOS developers and the creator of Instapaper and the first developer for Tumblr.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> A co-worker is really impressed with all the improvements, but they seem to mostly be improvements over previous poor ideas from Apple, that other brands already had or never abandoned.

I admit, a 16" screen in a 15" body sounds really nice. But most of this is stuff other brands already had.

<comment><USER62> The other brands don't have macOS. Running a Mac isn't just hardware.

People were annoyed because they don't want to run a different OS. Yes, you could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... but it's not macOS. Hackintoshes need not apply here.

<comment><USER61> And that's the big thing that keeps surprising me: that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it. Everybody seems content saddling their hardware with Windows.

Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either. They used to be brilliant developer laptops, but Apple seems to want everybody in their walled garden.

<comment><USER63> > that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their > own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it

That would be System 76 [https://system76.com/laptops/adder](https://system76.com/laptops/adder) with their pop OS linux distro [https://system76.com/pop](https://system76.com/pop)

<comment><USER64> PopOS is great but I think system76 needs to design their laptops from scratch instead of relabeling Clevo laptops if they're serious about challenging Apple. Their laptops have the specs, but the fit and finish is just not there.

<comment><USER65> I have a Clevo laptop (a few years old now) and even at the time, it was not exactly state of the art in terms of weight, battery life, etc. It's proven to be a fairly tough beast (even having fallen off my bike and lived). It is, unlike many new laptops, relatively easy to open up for upgrades and repair. Getting Apple's 'fit and finish' means a closed box.

<comment><USER66> That's true now, but it doesn't have to be. Before the retina MacBook Pro, the MacBook Pro used to be one of the easiest laptops to service. Opening it up, it was very easy to access almost every component.

<comment><USER65> Those days aren't coming back.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER67> I love the USB C/Thunderbolt 3 connector on my Macbook. I just have a single cable going into my mac from the display which also has the keyboard and mouse connected to it. The single cable does charging, display and peripherals.

For work, I have this display: LG 5K2k ([https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide- monito...](https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-monitor))

For a cheaper setup at home: LG 27inch USB C Monitor([https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27UK850-W-4k-uhd-led- monit...](https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27UK850-W-4k-uhd-led-monitor))

</comment><comment><USER68> People make a lot of noise about the missing function keys. But the keys that I miss the most on my 2018 Macbook Pro are the "E" and "SHIFT" keys.

<comment><USER69> I donn't miss any keeys, somee eeveenn work twice as eefficieennt.

<comment><USER70> Wait til the CMD key loses responsiveness. Hate having to CMD+V multiple times to paste something. Maybe I should just reprogram the option key or go back to my old Mac where all the keys work flawlessly.

<comment><USER71> This is the most annoying part of their keyboards.

Didn't copy or didn't paste. Or both.

<comment><USER72> How do you like pasting a TAB into your text editor/terminal every time you want to switch windows?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER73> As much as I appreciate Apple's U turn on the idiotic design of the butterfly keyboard switches, I still:

\- cannot even begin to understand why these things lack an important usability feature like MegSafe: there is really absolutely no reason why it cannot coexist with the ThunderBolt I/O (4 TB ports, one MegSafe: charge it however the heck you want).

\- find the presence of the castrated TouchBar an offense to users. It seems they just want to shove it down our throats whether we want it or not. Just make it optional: I'm sure that there are certain users out there that love it but every single peer of mine [1] hates the sole idea of something like that.

[1] I'm a software guy in the Valley

<comment><USER74> FWIW I just came up with the idea of a magsafe adapter for male and female USB-C, and it turns out it already exists for $23 on Amazon. I ordered one.

[https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick- Char...](https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick- Charge/dp/B07MMKZ8XD/ref=sr_1_3)

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> It's amazing to see such a positive response to such weak sauce with the touchbar. Our expectations really have fallen through the floor. There is no reason the escape key needs to be physical that doesn't also apply to the function keys. So why has Apple admitted the touchbar doesn't work, but still forces you to use it for F keys. With this form factor it wouldn't have been difficult to have function keys as well as a touchbar- but Apple don't seem interested in actually solving this problem.

I'm very tired of having to settle for serious shortcomings in what used to be such a great product.

<comment><USER76> > There is no reason the escape key needs to be physical that doesn't also > apply to the function keys.

IMO, those are completely different.

The sscape key provides access to a fundamental concept, "go back, undo, I didn't mean it, no!". This even goes beyond humans. E.g, my dogs have the same concept.

Function keys are abstract in a distended way... they mean, generally, some function specific to a certain context that doesn't fit into the general patterns, but is maybe pretty commonly needed in that context.

IMO, the Touch Bar, with text and graphical cues, is better suited. Of course, various software has been written to the F1-12 abstraction, and physical keys are nicer to type on, so it's not all good. But I think this is a case of one step back, two steps forward.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> Am I the only one that is scared at the prospect of losing physical keys for changing volume and brightness? I do this all the time, changing volume up/down during conference calls, adjusting the brightness when working late at night. Can you even map the Touch-bar to have "keys" for these instead of the slider which seems way less precise and direct? Genuinely asking since I'm still on 2014 MBP.

<comment><USER78> Yes you can have buttons to change volume and brightness. In fact the icons next to the slider are buttons you can tap to lower/increase volume/brightness. Or you can configure them to always show up as buttons without slider.

<comment><USER77> How accurately can you hit them compared to the physical keys you had before?

<comment><USER79> I have no problem with those. Maybe 95% or more.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER80> I'm pleasantly surprised that Apple decided to implement a physical escape key, the inverted "T" arrangement along with redoing the keyboard.

While I don't know if we should be applauding Apple so heavily, it's good to see that they "listened" to customer feedback and made these changes. I know that I'll be looking forward to getting one after my 2015 MBP gives out.

</comment><comment><USER81> Great, now I hope they make a 13-inch version. There's no reason to sacrifice mobility in a pro laptop.

<comment><USER82> Dear god, if Apple ever made a 14 inch (in 13 inch body) with a dedicated GPU, even if it was thicker to keep the same size battery, take my money.

<comment><USER83> I too sincerely hope that's coming next year

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER84> So the top of the line specs get you:

* 2.4GHz 8‑core 9th‑generation Intel Core i9 processor, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz

* 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory

* AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of GDDR6 memory

* 8TB SSD storage

for $6099USD. I wonder how it will handle the thermals.

<comment><USER85> I have a similarly-spec'd System76 Oryx Pro that cost less than half. No soldered DIMM's either :)

<comment><USER86> You really don't though? The top of the line comprable configuration has a significantly worse display, 75% of the SSD storage (that's also significantly slower), a worse graphics card and costs ~$4700.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER87> "Built‑in 100‑watt‑hour lithium‑polymer battery"

That is quite respectable! As large battery as possible, instead of saving the few grams or cubic millimeters.

I'm comparing this to for example Lenovo, which seems to like coming up with imaginary battery life promises ("The T490 delivers up to 16.1 hours of battery life") and then cutting the actual battery to minimum.

<comment><USER88> My p50 has 70 whatt/h and as the battery is removable, I have 2 of them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER89> > Featuring a new Magic Keyboard with a redesigned scissor mechanism and 1mm > travel for a more satisfying key feel, the 16-inch MacBook Pro delivers the > best typing experience ever in a Mac notebook.

Feels like they claim "best typing experience" every time they release a new laptop.

<comment><USER90> And it's never true (or hasn't been for awhile at least). It's clear they're engineering for thinness above all else, usability be damned.

I'm typing on a 2014-era Macbook Pro right now and I doubt any new scissor keys are gonna feel better than this. All of the newer Macbook Pros I've typed on have been terrible.

<comment><USER91> This model is actually 7 mm thicker than the 2019 15".

<comment><USER92> Thank God. I'm so sick of Apple making their machines worse just to shave off a few nanometers from the chassis.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER93> While it's nice to see an opinionated company like Apple admit fault and revert to what people want, I wonder if this move is too late for many of those that decided to move away from Apple?

Years ago, I switched to a Surface Book, and while I'm tempted to go back for this MBP I reckon that a Surface Book update would be enough to kill any desire for the Mac range. While Apple stagnated, many of the high-end manufacturers caught up.

<comment><USER94> Of course not. The people who complain on HN and switch to the "windows subsystem for linux" are a fringe minority. The rest of the industry is still jamming on a Mac.

<comment><USER88> You seem to be living in an all apple bubble. MBP share is tiny when compared to windows laptops.

<comment><USER94> For what industry? You're on HN not SAP daily. The rest of the world definitely runs on Windows but if you're building software and reading HN you're probably on macOS.

<comment><USER95> I don't know if that's true. Software devs in consulting shops (especially the megacorps - Accenture, TCS, Infosys, Cap Gemini) are probably the bulk of workers that write software. Most of them are likely not on HN but they do build software and they do it on Windows.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER96> I wish it had one USB-A. I plug in a mechanical keyboard, and when a job provided the previous macbook pro, I managed to lose or break a dongle about once a month.

<comment><USER97> Yup, the lack of USB-A (and the removal of the ESC key) is the reason I stopped buying MacBooks after many enjoyable years of using the MBA11, 2 x MBA13, and the 2015 MBP13 (arguably the best laptop ever made). Every peripheral that I own is on USB-A. Adding USB-C is great, but why _remove_ USB-A? I just don't get it.

<comment><USER98> Why remove the CD drive? Why remove the floppy disk? They did a cost benefit analysis and made that risk. There's usb-C to usb-A converters. It's not that big of a deal as it seems.

<comment><USER99> I have one device which is USB-C - a mouse. In what world is a mouse better with USB-C?

As for CD drives, the world moved on to bluray and that has a licensing cost as well as not fitting with the iTunes strategy of rent-and-never-own. Apple led, others followed. I'd still use it if it was built-in but not as an external: too much hassle to balance it on my lap and not drop the drive ruining the disk.

<comment><USER100> Well for one the connector is better. It's quicker to plug it in if you know you aren't going to plug it in the wrong way the first time. Second, for my wireless mouse the charging is faster. Third, the cable itself is slightly smaller and you don't need to carry around an old USB-A to USB-C cable.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER101> Marco posted an update earlier - [https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16](https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16)

</comment><comment><USER102> I'm not against spending money on essential tools of the trade that you keep for years but carrying around a super expensive laptop makes me feel really nervous e.g. it could get stolen, dropped, get wet in the rain, drinks spilt on it.

When I don't need the extra power, I think I'd rather travel with an easy to replace $900 laptop than a $3,000 one for ease of mind.

<comment><USER103> It's the opposite for me. I would use the €4000 HP ZBook from work on the subway or on the street. But I wouldn't use my €1000 mid-2015 MacBook Pro because I know I wouldn't be able to buy a new one if it got stolen or would break.

<comment><USER104> That makes no sense.

<comment><USER105> Money can't buy everything - if they don't make the 2015 chassis anymore (ie. no Touchbar, which some people still very much prefer), then you cant really get a replacement for it, no matter the price.

<comment><USER104> Don't they still sell refurbs? I bought a refurbed 2015 model like last year

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER106> I am very happy about this and the Mac Pro -- it seems like Apple is finally admitting where it has room for improvement in hardware.

Which, of course, makes me wonder whether they will ever abandon their hubris with software. There really ought to be a Rosetta-style compatibility layer for 32-bit and GC apps in macOS. Sadly, I don't think that will ever happen. Anyone know whether it's possible to install Mojave on one of these?

I've been a Mac user for thirteen years this month. I'm not sure I can buy another one.

<comment><USER107> If your workflow allows for switch then just pull the trigger and buy cheaper and faster Windows or Linux machine. IMHO Macs are extremely overpriced and should be bought only by people who are tied to MacOS ecosystem (iOS development, Final Cut Pro etc.)

</comment></comment><comment><USER108> RAM and HD are still soldered down, which means you have to decide up front how much you want _and_ you have to pay the 3x-4x Apple markup on both. These are both dealbreakers for me, and the continuing inadequate port situation just seals the deal. It's a no.

</comment><comment><USER109> Is it me or this laptop is eye-wateringly expensive? I'm no Mac noob but it's getting a little hard to justify the expense to stay in the ecosystem.

<comment><USER110> The stock configurations are exactly the same price as the 15" used to be, but now with double the storage. So it's actually better value now than it was.

<comment><USER111> and... I'm feeling it because I just bought the 15" $2799 model 5 months ago, couldn't justify the extra $ on a 1TB model, and now it's built in. :/

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER112> This is too irresistible not to upgrade. I'm more interested in CPU/Memory and the Graphic card bump is only $100. In total, it should cost $3.900 excluding taxes (or $2.500 if I "trade in" my current machine). Looking at the competition, a ThinkPad P53 Mobile Workstation with the 2.3Ghz processor / 32GB of RAM will cost $3.759.

I think the pricing is _very_ competitive, given that the ThinkPad is a giant box. So even if Lenovo lowers its price in the next iteration of its ThinkPad, the MacbookPro will quite match up.

Kudos for Apple for doing this!

</comment><comment><USER113> Looks like you get your escape key back, that's nice.

<comment><USER114> I have a Pro at work and dislike its keyboard so much that I still have a 2013 Air at home. This is the first Pro I'll consider in a long time because of the Esc key.

</comment></comment><comment><USER115> Why is the touchbar still a thing. I hit the speaker button inadvertently at least once a day. "Pop!"

<comment><USER116> Did you know you can rearrange the buttons for the touchbar? System Preferences -> Keyboard -> Customise Control Strip.

My bugbear was hitting the siri button by mistake, I swapped that for a 'do not disturb' button which is harmless when pressed.

<comment><USER25> The point is we shouldn't have to be reconfiguring our laptops to make them usable. :/

I'm so over Apple hardware. Just let me hackintosh it.

<comment><USER117> By unusable you mean it's possible to hit the wrong key by accident? Having to go into settings for your preferred layout seems reasonable to me too...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER118> Is anyone else wondering about that 8TB SSD bit? Unless they have four M.2 slots which I doubt they must use 4TB SSDs and that'd be QLC which sucks.

<comment><USER119> They don't do slots. They'll be soldered onto the board directly, straight into the T2 chip via PCI-E.

Doesnt speak to the quality of the NAND, probably 3D/QLC though. For density.

<comment><USER118> Yeah, I forgot, of course. In that case, who knows, there are 22110 enterprise 4TB SSDs using MLC even -- maybe they have enough space on the board for MLC or TLC. We will know when iFixit tears one down :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER120> I had the displeasure to have a quick go on a new Macbook Air.

I decided after some testing that I prefer the keyboard on my calculator.

Then I had to ask what the point was of making a laptop so thin that it can't have any real ports, then having to carry a bag full of adapters?

I'll stick with my Thinkpad T480

<comment><USER121> Totally agreed. My T480s is an amazing machine. High performance, great keyboard, every imaginable port (RJ45!), excellent battery life. I can't believe it doesn't get more love.

</comment></comment><comment><USER122> Only a few more iterations before we have the complete row of Fn Keys!

That said, I'm glad they bumped up the base to 512GB and the keyboard is improved.

</comment><comment><USER76> I loved the marketing copy in the "New Magic Keyboard" section...

Wow! A _physical_ escape key?!? A scissor mechanism?!? Will the innovation ever cease?!!?!

But more seriously, kudos to them for the full 180 fix.

(Well, I know some hate the existence of the Touch Bar, but I think it has very interesting potential which perhaps could be realized with its major fatal flaw finally fixed.)

</comment><comment><USER62> If this holds up, then man... am I happy.

I ran the gamut looking for comparable laptops recently in an effort to figure out what I'd do if they didn't get it together, and the options really vary and nothing feels as nice.

</comment><comment><USER123> It's really something that one of the first promotional photos on the page is a macbook hooked up to audio gear through daisy-chained dongles and adapters instead of just a regular USB or ethernet cable like it would've been in the old days. The price of thin.

</comment><comment><USER124> The big problem with the Touch Bar for me is the difficulty building muscle memory because it's only used part of the time. I have to learn 2 workflows "Docked" and roving. Since for me I spend so much more time docked, the Touch Bar patterns never get added to my muscle memory. If there was a Touch Bar based external keyboard I would at least have the chance to try it full time.

</comment><comment><USER125> This is a little tangential, but does anybody find it weird that, even on desktop, the article seems hyperoptimized for mobile? The huge margins made it feel like I was reading on a phone emulator instead of on a desktop.

<comment><USER126> I did glance up and the address bar to double check that I hadn't ended up on their mobile site. Very odd design.

</comment></comment><comment><USER127> I was so hoping for a constant bezel width. Unfortunately the top bezel is still a lot larger than the side ones. I know it's because of the camera, but that makes for an awkward looking device…

<comment><USER107> Can you elaborate on why constant bezel width is so important? Most devices (phones, tablets, TVs, laptops) don't have constant bezel width.

<comment><USER126> Most devices look terrible as a result.

<comment><USER107> That's your personal opinion. I don't like thinning of the machines (and that's a opinion) but I have actual reasons for it (overheating, battery size, upgradebility). Saying that uneven bezels are bad because you don't like them is like saying that recycling is bad because I don't like multiple bins in front of my house.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER128> Made a special point to request an Air instead of a Pro when I started my new job recently. Office manager was confused and insisted everyone else was using Pros but I stayed strong. No regrets.

</comment><comment><USER129> 16 matches for the word "ever" in that page.

I love the Esc key is back though and hopefully it doesn't throttle as much as my current 2017 MBP.

<comment><USER130> 10 for "world's" which includes "world's best" "world's most". A very cringey read if you ask me yet people eat this stuff up.

</comment></comment><comment><USER131> In the UK and the `Buy` button redirects to a not found page.

[https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/go/macbook_pro/select](https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/go/macbook_pro/select) this 404s for me.

<comment><USER132> It seems to be a global issue.

Edit: Replaced the _ with a - and it works

</comment></comment><comment><USER133> As a person burned by the "improved" 2018 keyboard, I'd wait a couple months to see how sensitive to dust this one is.

It's not the typing experience that was the main problem with the previous keyboard, it was that you couldn't use the laptop outdoors...

</comment><comment><USER134> MKBHD already has an overview video on this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAv4qOU_04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAv4qOU_04) (with apparently real hardware).

</comment><comment><USER135> The line about the "Apple-designed rubber dome" sticks out. Why even say that? Did Apple not design the other bits? My sympathy for whomever over there is trying to navigate the whole keyboard situation and messaging.

</comment><comment><USER136> Keyboard re-design and bringing back the ESC key will be huge.

64GB of RAM in a laptop... yowza.

<comment><USER88> Typing this from my two year old thinkpad with 64GB.

<comment><USER137> Even though I dislike their now standard 16:9 ratio, Thinkpads are top tier. I've been using them since the late 90s. I think the 770ED was my first one. I still have a W500 that's in use from time to time.

<comment><USER88> Same here, I still own many generations I now use a P50, almost went for the p52 with 128GB.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER138> It is unfortunate to see the jump from 16 GB to 32 GB of ram cost so much. I realize this isn't anything new for Apple, but I would have hoped for the base 16-inch model to have 32 GB at this point.

</comment><comment><USER139> After much deliberation, I bought a 2017 13" MBP, upspecced to 512GB SSD and 16GB RAM. While I've not had a complete failure from the keyboard, it did need looking at at the Apple Store when it also had the entire display assembly replaced because the keyboard had damaged the screen - despite me looking after it well, always putting it in a soft slip case and then a laptop bag.

While I've liked some elements of the design, it's not (to me) a Pro piece of kit, and I've sine replaced it with a 2016 15" MBP which is much better built and doesn't need extra dongles to connect to everyday devices (and has magsafe, which is the best piece of design I've seen in many years).

Given this performance, I'll never buy a new Macbook again - <USER2> given all the issues about thermal throttling, battery life and indeed the way that macOS seems now to be going.

Don't get me wrong, there are elements of the 2017 MBP that I love - it looks amazing, the screen is fantastic and it's just so precisely made. But the lack of ports, the lack of ruggedness, the keyboard and the performance outweigh any 'look, shiny!' feeling I have about it - so much so that I've not sold it because I feel like I'm stitching the buyer up - even though they've not held their price compared to previous models, which shows that people know this to be the case, and the keyboard still has the 4 year warranty in place.

</comment><comment><USER140> OMG, I'm very depressed as a user who loves the butterfly mechanism. I hate the wobbly feeling that the scissor mechanism produces. Apple didn't need to return to the scissor mechanism, it should have reiterated the design. I'm very disappointed that Apple just gave up & used the safe way of regressing back.

It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether other people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company that just does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.

<comment><USER141> "And they didn't throw away the good parts of the butterfly keyboard — including excellent backlighting and especially the increased stability, where keys go down flat even when pressed off-center. The keys on this keyboard don't wobble like the keys on pre-2016 MacBook Pro keyboards do." — [https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...](https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first_impressions)

<comment><USER140> Wow, that's pretty great! I'm not sure I'll change my mind until I actually touch them, but that's pretty great, kind of removes my stereotypes of scissor keyboards.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER142> I'm frustrated by the 720p camera. That is not good enough quantity.

<comment><USER126> Would you prefer it had 2 cameras?

</comment></comment><comment><USER143> I simply don't get it. NH reader base are usually well versed in technology and as such we should expect them to get some attitude towards their computer.

We have basically a computer which will never allow you to install what you want except if that software is signed by apple in a process taking 1 minute and said to garantee an extra level of security (how this process is able to check on any security issue in 1 minute is beyond my understanding) to user.

So they simply lose the ability to install anhthing not signed by apple. Old programs, a ton of open source programs. If Apple decide tomorrow to stop its signin program (and it will happen soon or later), user will be basically stuck with a computer limited to install Mac Appstore Software.

This is as significant as the fact there was a nodejs issue regarding the inability of the team behind it to distribute new release of nodejs because apple server simply refused to sign the package that contained the binary.

Apple computers are destined to become giant iPhone once apple decide to ditch apple notarization program, and the user will be leftwith absolutelly no control of what's happen in their computer like what is the case in ios device.

How someone with technical education can be satisfied with such scenario is beyond me. AApple computer are simply becoming Grandma computer.

</comment><comment><USER144> Over 1500 comments and not a single word that MATLAB runs 2x faster on this new Mac than before.

</comment><comment><USER145> The "Inverted-T" arrow keys here are _way_ better than the previous version with full-height Left/Right but half-height Up/Down.

But I've always preferred the "6-key" layout, as seen on ThinkPads. Half- height arrow keys, but then an additional key on top of both Left and Right.

Commonly marked as Page Up / Page Down, but easily reconfigurable to 2 additional arbitrary hotkeys.

Looks nice and symmetrical enough for Apple. Wish they would use it.

</comment><comment><USER146> I'm sure they're still rolling this out.. the "buy" button on the MacBook page leads to "Page Not Found".[0] Unfortunate, because I've been waiting for the 16-inch ever since the first rumor came up..

[0] [https://www.apple.com/us/shop/go/macbook_pro/select](https://www.apple.com/us/shop/go/macbook_pro/select)

<comment><USER29> Does this work?

[https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro?product=MVVK2...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro?product=MVVK2LL/A&step=config)

[https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro?product=MVVJ2...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook- pro?product=MVVJ2LL/A&step=config)

</comment></comment><comment><USER147> I'm going to wait on this until _at least_ a few months have elapsed and the reviews / forums indicate the keyboard is fine.

</comment><comment><USER94> I have a one year old 15" that I'm super bummed about now. It's a pretty powerful machine w/ 32gb of ram but I wish I could have waited for this.

Problems I currently have that are annoying:

\- I miss the 13" air form factor a lot. I knew it would be a trade off for the performance, but using this beast anywhere but on a desk is pretty tough. On a plane you need a first class seat to open it. It gets super super hot with most workloads.

\- there is an obnoxious electrical whine coming from the mainboard and it might be the SSD. Lots of videos on YouTube show that the ssd actually makes a lot of noise and almost sounds like it's a physical disk. Poor manufacturing from Toshiba.

I guess that's really it. I just wish I could use it on the couch without burning my thighs. I don't have any qualms with the keyboard or touchbar. I have caps lock remapped to escape so that doesn't bug me. Also the touchbar is in "old school mode" or whatever so it looks like a regular function key bar on a non touchbar Mac.

</comment><comment><USER148> Genuinely curious, why did so many developers ask for the return of the physical Escape key when you could easily re-map it to caps lock? Before this was an officially supported option, I always hated having to do big hand- shimmies every time I needed to press the escape key, which is quite often for programs like vim!

<comment><USER149> Because caps lock is already control. :-)

<comment><USER150> Hold for control, tap for escape. You'll never go back. :)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER151> I wonder if they fixed the trackpad? The previous trackpad's palm rejection never worked properly.

It always surprised me how broken the palm rejection was on the recent MacBook Pro since previous models (2012-2015) running the same macOS version had no such issues; moreover, palm rejection also works fine on the iPad and iPhone.

</comment><comment><USER152> I'm amazed how accurate the rumour mill is in Shenzhen.

First heard about it back in March, when all OEMs were scrambling to make lookalike products before Apple's release.

Would be interesting to know if they went back to Samsung panels from LG. I remember Samsung salesmen were pushing hard their new 500 and 600 nit panels a year ago.

</comment><comment><USER153> Funny enough I just replaced my MBP 15 with a Sager notebook due to two of the issues they seem to have addressed with this release. First and foremost was lack of ram I have to virtualize a lot of specialty hardware for one of my clients so that I can simulate a total environment on a single machine. There can literally be 1000's of nodes running custom embedded systems. 16GB was stretching it on my last MBP and 32 just got me back in the game with my 15. I really needed 64GB and my new Sager has the ability to go to 128GB.

The second was the move away from the 17 MBP I know they are not popular and I know the reasons for killing it, but I develop on the road a lot and the extra screen space helps when a second monitor is not practical.

Had this been out 6 months ago I may have reconsidered my switch to a PC. That being said I am happy with my switch.

</comment><comment><USER154> > Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999.

Is this the first time we got a starting price on the Mac Pro?

<comment><USER107> No, I'm pretty sure the starting price for Mac Pro was announced when the machine was revealed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER155> Pricing is shot across the bow to Lenovo: higher end configs of Carbon X1 Extreme have similar prices, even though they aren't really comparable in terms of brand recognition and in some aspects of hardware quality. Good. Then there's also the fact that X1 Extreme is troublesome when it comes to Linux compatibility, so if you want a proper Unix-like experience, Mac is still one of the best options, although Microsoft is really trying nowadays. If someone from Lenovo is reading this: I like Carbon X1. I'd buy X1 Extreme if it ran Linux as well as plain X1 does. I'm not price sensitive. But Windows is not really viable for me when it comes to professional use.

Looks like Apple will be getting another $3K or so of my money 6 months from now after other people beta test the new MBP for bugs.

</comment><comment><USER156> "The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key..." well that's what I call a feat.

<comment><USER157> Truly an innovation.

</comment></comment><comment><USER158> When they get rid of the touchbar that's when I'll upgrade from my 2013 MBP and not a day sooner.

</comment><comment><USER122> This is very close in dimensions to the 2015 15" rMBP. The thermals should be much improved.

<comment><USER159> Thanks for pointing this out! In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to find this 16-inch model is very slightly smaller in each dimension than the 2015 15-inch rMBP.

2019 16-inch, per [https://www.apple.com/macbook- pro-16/specs/](https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-16/specs/) :

Height: 0.64 inch (1.62 cm), Width: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm), Depth: 9.68 inches (24.59 cm), Weight: 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)

2015 15-inch, per [https://support.apple.com/kb/SP719?locale=en_US](https://support.apple.com/kb/SP719?locale=en_US) :

Height: 0.71 inch (1.8 cm), Width: 14.13 inches (35.89 cm), Depth: 9.73 inches (24.71 cm), Weight: 4.49 pounds (2.04 kg)

</comment></comment><comment><USER160> > You can spec this machine up to 64GB of RAM and 8TB (not a typo) of storage > on the SSD. That's just a massive amount of storage — and it will cost > $6,099 to get a fully loaded 16-inch MacBook Pro.

Wow, that is a lot of computer. Even the base model is 16gb and 512gb.

</comment><comment><USER161> "The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor mechanism that delivers 1mm of key travel and a stable key feel, as well as an Apple-designed rubber dome that stores more potential energy for a responsive key press"

Wow..

</comment><comment><USER162> So basically they made what the 2016 lineup should've been.

In November 2019.

OK.

</comment><comment><USER163> "Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro"

"Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999. Both will be available to order in December through apple.com."

They keep announcing it, yet you still can't buy it. I wonder why.

<comment><USER164> Is this the first time they said what month it was coming out? I thought until now they just said, "2019".

<comment><USER163> Fair point. I guess there were only 2 months left in 2019 :D

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER165> > Inverted-T arrow keys! A millimeter of key travel!

Which is still quite poor - Thinkpads offer between 1.3 to 1.9mm of travel depending on the model. It is surprising that a $1Trillion computer hardware company cannot design the best keyboard in the world while tiny Lenovo seems to have done much better.

Why would a "pro" user care more thinness and form than the usability of the primary input mechanism?

Add: It's not merely the travel. Lenovo keyboards are so slightly concave which offer perceivably better support for finger tips. The key surface also has a rougher texture instead of being flat, smooth and glossy, which I hope more manufacturers will emulate.

<comment><USER76> Well, from someone who's had to rely on his work-issued Thinkpad a lot over the last week... Thinkpad keyboard are complete crap. Those keys can travel all the way into a garbage can for all I care.

I have no idea if this new laptop's keyboard is any good, but it would have to take several steps back before you get to lenovo. One arrow key pops on and off as I use it. (This lappy is 4 months old and I've rarely done anything but remote into it so the keyboard should be pristine.) The escape key needs to be pressed extra hard -- beyond the "click" \-- to register sometimes. Also, the right-click area on the trackpad expands and contracts mysteriously (best just to turn that off.)

<comment><USER166> That sounds like the laptop was dropped or had a drink spilled on it or something, I don't think you should stereotype the entire brand based on it.

<comment><USER76> Well, OK, but it hasn't since I've had it.

I guess you're blaming Dave the IT guy who gave it to me.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER167> I'm not a fan of Apple but there are a few things I like of this laptop. Starting with the most important:

\- It's got no number pad, so the screen, the keyboard and the touch pad are aligned with the nose of the user, which doesn't have to shift the laptop to the right to work and have 2/3 of the screen to his/her right.

\- It's got a slightly larger screen than my HP ZBook but it's narrower and lighter: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm) and 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)

\- It can go up to 8 TB of storage and 64 GB of RAM (but there are laptops with 128 GB in 2019).

I didn't investigate if it can be upgraded (RAM and SSD) or if everything is soldered.

</comment><comment><USER168> Wow! The "New Magic Keyboard." I wonder what it is. Oh, wait, it's the old scissor keyboard. "Largest Retina display ever." With 226ppi... But the Esc key is back! I'm so excited! /s

</comment><comment><USER169> I bought one. If they hadn't produced this I would have walked on Apple hardware. The only thing that is jaw dropping to me: the price tag.

I'm surprised to not see people talking about it in the comments. 3900 US without Apple care? Holy god. I bought the max spec or close to it in 2015 for 800+$ less. The differences are negligible, and then I spent an additional 200$ on dongles I don't want. I'm probably not done. When all was said and done I spent 4600$ on this machine. I make my living on a computer and I need the pro part of the MacBook Pro, but it is still a really jaw dropping price for what it is.

<comment><USER169> Total difference in cost? ~1500$. That seems a ridiculous difference for modest hardware improvement and the requisite gaggle of adapters. I'm happy with the machine, but it's probably 500$ more than what I would have been comfortable paying for the hardware. In the past I remember feeling like what I was getting was worth it. In this case I feel price gouged.

</comment></comment><comment><USER170> Finally a 1TB SSD is not eye-wateringly expensive. Even the base model is 512.

<comment><USER171> Kinda wish it was $200 more for 32GB of RAM instead of $400 - my only complaint.

<comment><USER170> Yeah agreed. I have 16GB in the MacBook Pro I bought back in 2013. Surely in 6 years a doubling of ram should not be too much to ask without breaking the bank.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER172> How long until they walk back the touchbar though? I figure if it was useful to anyone it would be cloned by now. I cant imagine they're holding onto that feature for any other reason than to save face.

<comment><USER173> There have been multiple variations in other laptops. How successful they are, I can't comment on.

Screen in touchpad: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus- zenbook-14-ux434fl-ub...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus- zenbook-14-ux434fl-ub76t-laptop/92QGN1B30DBF/9X2V)

Screen above keyboard: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-pro- duo-lapto...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-pro-duo- laptop/8S9CL2FTP7RV/4L5T)

</comment></comment><comment><USER174> Go from 16GB to 32GB of RAM and 1TB to 2TB and you have over $800 in upgrades.

I put 16GB in my 2013 Mac Book Pro. The extra RAM is key to getting a few more years of use.

An external SSD would be fine but Mac laptops never have enough ports.

</comment><comment><USER175> I'm a bit surprised no one has talked about the price. Starting at 2400$US? That's... a lot.

For anyone who is going to use this as their primary computer, the real price is 2800$.

That's a lot... Who is the end consumer here? Folks who are computer illiterate and want 'the best' laptop apple has to offer?

Laptops promote poor posture, can't match desktop speeds and are expensive! Their use-case to me is limited to business people who hop from meeting to meeting all day, but then you don't need the horsepower and will be fine with a 500$ option.

</comment><comment><USER176> I am really stoked about this. I am typing this on a 15 inch MB Pro. I survived the keyboard issues by not buying a new MB Pro.

There is always this lurking sense that if my existing MB Pro dies, that I would have to transition to something with a defect.

This new model has piqued my interest. I am excited to see that it has a bump in memory. That has always been something that has not sat well with me. Newer software demanding more and more memory while models of the MB Pro has been released with no increases in RAM.

</comment><comment><USER177> The lack of a larger screen size coupled with the keyboard deficiencies are what drove me away from macOS to various linux distros.

While I'm immensely happy with my new OS - a lot more could be said about the hardware ( especially when running larger screens on pc that just can't keep up battery wise ).

This is a phenomenal step in the right direction, but one that comes too late for me. At this point I can't begin to consider jumping back until macOS sees some substantial improvements.

</comment><comment><USER178> Related: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21523736](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21523736)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21526058](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21526058) has few comments but points to a long interview with Phil Schiller that has some interesting things but (brace yourself) says basically nothing about the touch bar.

</comment><comment><USER179> This looks really nice and I want one, but 1mm of key travel doesn't seem like something to brag about. I know it's a personal preference thing, but 1mm ?

</comment><comment><USER180> Those full sized arrows on current 15" MacBooks were driving me crazy! It's great to see them put half sized left and right arrows back! I'll Definitely b buying it

</comment><comment><USER181> The current MacBook pros are a menace for the sounds those keyboards make alone.

I was stunned that no one at Apple heard that ridiculously obnoxious CLACK CLACK CLACKING and didn't think we would do something about that.

Does anyone inside Apple know how that disaster of a keyboard came to be? How did logic and rationality not see it turfed the moment it was trialled?

(This new keyboard claims to be quieter. Although calling it "magic" is just so pretentious and so.. Apple)

</comment><comment><USER182> All those specs and yet only has 802.11ac, and not 802.11ax?

</comment><comment><USER183> I like it, finally Apple although I'll still wait for the 13" to downsize (the touchbar is still just an excuse to drive the price up.)

The real issue here is the intel chip. New vulnerabilities have just been found and the company isn't addressing them so I'm starting to question the platform.

What about an AMD machine. It would be cooler, slower yet un-throttled so about the same performance. But it wouldn't be a sitting duck.

</comment><comment><USER184> Off topic, but can someone explain to my why their releases start this way:

> Cupertino, California — Apple today unveiled an all-new 16-inch MacBook Pro > — the world's best pro notebook

It's on apple.com for fuck's sake and if you don't know that Apple is based in California, do you really care? Why do they write this stuff as if it's some other entity writing about Apple as opposed to "today we are pleased to announce..."?

<comment><USER185> The idea is that press releases that look like articles make lazy journalists less critical. Because the phrasing is already very similar to the end result the journalist has to produce, the path of least resistance is to simply copy as much as possible. Lots of big comapanies do this nowadays.

<comment><USER186> Exactly.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER187> I've been scared away from Apple for some time. It started with the touch function keys, then the butterfly keyboard, reducing ports, reducing the machine to near throw-away status when the warranty is up, while remaining very expensive. Never say never but I don't see anything here worth pulling me back, when their are PC laptops that could do the job just as good, perhaps better.

</comment><comment><USER188> For those of you mentioning the esc key, I suggest mapping capslock to esc, I've been doing that for years now (both Linux and Mac) and it's awesome. Except when you're using someone else's computer and constantly turn capslock on and off...

Edit: You can do this natively since Mojave(?) in the keyboard settings without having to resort to something like Karabiner.

<comment><USER189> Unless that's where you've already remapped ctrl.

<comment><USER190> I have both using Karabiner-Elements. Escape when pressed alone, ctrl if pressed with something else.

<comment><USER191> I had that setup, then I noticed something didn't feel quite right on some apps: apparently sometimes I tend to press Ctrl to enter some key combination, depress it immediately after and it fires the ESC key, which might have unintended consequences (i.e. closing a window I was reading)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER192> I'm still using the last Macbook Pro without a touchbar, and plan on not upgrading until either this dies, or Apple decide to make a laptop with a full keyboard. If it dies before that, it's Hackintosh or Linux time.

It honestly astounds me that the device that has traditionally been adopted most by developers has lost so much of what developers need in favour of gimmicks.

<comment><USER193> As a developer I rarely use the function keys, I only need it for debugging purposes. I much prefer ergonmic keyboards, so I rarely use the one on my laptops. But whether it's Windows/Linux/MacOS I rarely require the function keys. As a mechanical keyboard enthusiast I have them in a different layer for the rare occasion that I actually "need" them. I have far less gripe with having my mousehand of the keyboard when debugging than I do when typing regularly.

You can easily use a tool like [https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/](https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/) or `brew cask install karabiner-elements` to remap fn + number keyrow to be the function keys.

Offtopic: Typing this on a Redox Wireless keyboard, it's great for developing on. It's a split ergonomic columnly staggered ortholinear keyboard, the [] keys are in the middle of the split parts. And you have thumb clusters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER194> Boy, every new Apple laptop release people harp endlessly about the cost.

Look, people, Apple high-end laptops generally cost $3-4K. And if you think that's high, you're forgetting that (in many of our cases) you're running your whole business on that.

$3-4K every couple of years should be in the noise. Cost relative to other laptops has little meaning, if you want high-end Apple gear.

</comment><comment><USER195> I've been holding onto my 2015 MacBook pro now for ages, waiting and waiting.

I'd like to see the touchbar disappear completely, and the function keys return - but the real escape key and no butterfly keyboard is enough of a change that I think I can finally buy another MacBook!!

It was definitely off the cards for a few years there, and I was starting to wonder what I was going to do!

</comment><comment><USER196> I think my question will be ports. The article didn't say what they broke there. Will it only support Bluetooth headphones? Bluetooth monitors? No USB? No SD card slot?

Especially for a 16" laptop, I'd like something without a mess of dongles and adapters. The 2015 15" Macbook was pretty good in this department, but Apple is on a port-cutting rampage.

<comment><USER197> Well the tech specs page is up: [https://www.apple.com/macbook- pro-16/specs/](https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-16/specs/)

4 USB-C ports and a headphone jack. Same as before.

</comment></comment><comment><USER198> Hmm, so they improved the keyboard? Kinda makes me wish I'd waited a bit longer to buy a MacBook Pro, since I think I would have preferred this version of the keyboard to the one on the version I'm using right now.

Still, the important thing is that Apple seemingly listened to feedback. Too many double down on bad decisions regardless of feedback.

</comment><comment><USER199> For years, I have bemoaned the demise of the 17" MBP. 16" with small bezels is a worthy compromise. Thank you Apple.

</comment><comment><USER200> I have a TouchBar MacBook and I was pretty peeved about the escape key at first, but once I remapped the caps lock key to escape I never looked back. The caps lock key is worthless anyway.

That said, the only cool use for the TouchBar that I've noted is with iTerm2. Changing terminal colors on the fly from the TouchBar is actually kinda nifty.

<comment><USER201> BUT DOESN'T THAT MAKE POSTING ON FORUMS HARD?!!

<comment><USER188> FOR THAT YOU JUST TYPE WHILE YOUR LEFT HAND PINKY IS RESTING ON SHIFT!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER202> I'm totally not regretting upgrading to this year's 15 inch model.

Just a huge bit.

Apple do take your current model back for credit but given I'll only get 900 pounds for it (presumably much more in the USA!) I guess I'll stick to it for now. I'd be happy to pay a few hundreds for the upgrade; it's unjustifiable to upgrade for full price minus a 900 pound discount.

</comment><comment><USER203> The Touch Bar is still there and horrible. The price on the 16" model is downright insane. Add some customizations past the bare bottom and you are up in the stratosphere.

I'll be sticking with my 13" 2015 MBP for the foreseeable future. I'll just build up a home machine that I can log into and do some heavier workloads on.

</comment><comment><USER204> Looks pretty good, I think I'll wait until the new microled displays though.

The thermal design updates are welcome, that was seriously crippling previous Macbook Pros.

I'd love to know how long and what clock rate the 8-core 16" MBP can sustain multi-core workloads running at 100% core utilisation. My guess is for a minute or so at 3.5ghz+.

</comment><comment><USER205> Windows development -- specially if you develop with a terminal editor -- has become very feasible with WSL.

I was scared away from Apple by the keyboards and found a new dev home in Windows. I've tried to go back for personal projects, but it's just too much conversion for very little compensation.

I think I'm done with Apple macs

</comment><comment><USER206> I agree that the improvements like the ESC key and 16" screen are good things.

But is it strange to anyone else that a company that prides itself on being innovative and motto is "think different" is parading around a screen size change and a keyboard regression as the biggest selling points for a product launch?

<comment><USER171> This release is essentially a "we messed up, this is what you wanted all long", but they can't say that so they're using the regular MBP marketing talk.

Not hating - I am getting this laptop.

<comment><USER207> Plus the updated CPU, RAM and GPU associated with a hardware refresh. They can be seen also as good selling points :)

<comment><USER208> Intel processor riddled with vulnerabilities over AMD's 7nm state of the art processors which are cooler and more energy efficient?

Overpriced soldered RAM?

AMD GPU that's basicaly useless for ML instead of NVidia?

None of these are good selling points.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> Not a ton of new information presented here, but it is nice to hear that the reviewer quite likes the new keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER209> The screen resolution of 3072x1920 (224.6ppi) is triple 1024x640.

Apple states that it also scales to

      •  1920x1200 (3:5)

      •  1680x1050 (48:25)

      •  1280x800  (12:5)

which obviously are all fractions. With the small pixel size (0.1122mm) it probably doesn't matter that much.

The 16" display has a 16:10 aspect ratio.

</comment><comment><USER210> It's nice to see Apple fixing their keyboard issues (they don't normally bow to customer pressure).

I just wish they would allow Linux to be installed natively on it (with supported touchbar drivers, etc.).

And a small part of me secretly wants Apple to release a MBP with a TrackPoint, just to see people's reactions ;-)

</comment><comment><USER211> It just seems like, for people who aren't wealthy, it might make more sense to buy a gaming laptop and get very close to or better specs/performance and save $500 or maybe even $1000. Although I guess the reason people waste money like that is partly just to prove they can waste money.

</comment><comment><USER212> Is there any hope of Apple including an Nvidia card in a future laptop or has that ship completely sailed?

</comment><comment><USER213> Too little too late. By now, Apple has lost me. The only Apple HW I might (theoretically) still buy is a Mac Pro, but not in practice, since you can't get it with a 32-bit capable OS any more. So fuck Apple. I'll have to get Windoze hardware and put a BSD Unix on it.

</comment><comment><USER214> Buried in this press release:

> Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro... will be available in > December

</comment><comment><USER215> ```

def test_apple_is_back_for_pros():

        16_mbp = 16MBP()

        16_mbp_specs = 16_mbp.specs

        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.thicker)

        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.escape_key)

        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.larger_battery)

        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.better_kb)

```

</comment><comment><USER216> Sweet, a MBP that lives up to the name again. Congrats on listening to your customers, Apple. Too bad for me, I gave in and 'upgraded' my 2011 to a top of the line used 2015 MBP about six months ago, now I kinda want this new one. Ah well

</comment><comment><USER217> Interesting that the tag line is "world's best". I feel as though they usually go with something more quantitative like "fastest" or "most powerful", etc. "Best" obviously being completely subjective.

</comment><comment><USER218> The 17" Pro from around 2011 was the world's best pro notebook. The things are still pretty capable beasts, even today.

Apple could do well to dust off that design, toss in an updated processor, and put whatever price tag they wanted on it.

</comment><comment><USER219> Big plus to regain the Escape key.

Hopefully the new keyboard is reliable.

The Touch Bar is forgettable and a row of physical function keys would be an improvement. I don't know any "pro" user who likes the Touch Bar or who wants to look down at the keys when typing or interact with a microscopic touch screen.

Still puzzled by the lack of ports for a pro laptop. It's 16" with a huge body, not particularly thin or light, and they couldn't add two USB-A, SD slot, HDMI? The age of a dozen dongles continues.

64GB RAM option is a big plus, though the prices are 2x-3x market.

Presumably the SSD is still soldered onboard, which basically makes these unrepairable and disposable premium priced laptops.

Overall far better than what it replaced, but still missing some key features from the 2015 MBP line which remains the best Mac laptop ever made.

Will be interesting to see if they ditch the 13" and move to a 14" with similar specs.

</comment><comment><USER220> I didn't have a touchbar but wouldn't the escape key have been the easiest non-physical key to reach without looking, due to its indexed location? Or was the problem that it wasn't always exposed by the software?

<comment><USER221> I was constantly bringing up the help view in Vim by hitting F1 instead of Esc. Decades of muscle memory wouldn't allow me to actually use Caps Lock remapped as ecape.

</comment></comment><comment><USER222> Got my 2019 top spec but then revert to get a macbook old stock for daily use. The macbook 12 inch is great. Work nicely with my ipad. Can't do two screen even the 2nd screen did show. But all is fine. The 15 cold feet.

</comment><comment><USER223> Still wish it had a touch screen. The physical escape key is nice. The fact I can hackintosh a touch screen dell xps to see if my app's gestures work etc is just so crazy why they won't give in.

</comment><comment><USER224> Why has Apple gone with Touch ID on Macs, while moving to Face ID on iOS devices?

Is there some technical reason why Face ID isn't a good fit? I can't see cost being an issue, nor physical space for the sensor.

</comment><comment><USER225> With the 15" MBP being EOLed into a 16", it's hard not to wonder if the 13.3" displays might become 14". Makes a big difference at the size, as the X1 Carbon is able to prove.

</comment><comment><USER226> " The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key" - really? It was there as a physical escape key, Apple removed it, put it back in and called it, wait for it ... a physical Escape Key.

</comment><comment><USER227> I'm curious why this memory controller that supports 64 Gigs would not have made it into the recent refresh of the 15" MBP. Is this related to the new thermal design they mentioned maybe?

</comment><comment><USER227> I'm curious why the memory controller in that supports 64 Gigs would not have made it into the recent refresh of 15" MBP. Is this related to the new thermal design they mentioned maybe?

</comment><comment><USER228> > The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor > mechanism

Probably one of the most important features, even if mentioned in passing, given the problems of the butterfly mechanism.

</comment><comment><USER229> Is the form factor the same as 15" Macbook Pro or is this bigger? Did Apple simply reduce bezels on the sides of the screen to fit 16" display instead of the standard 15"?

</comment><comment><USER230> The photos in the article do show the physical escape key but do not show the sides of the laptop where the ports would be. I hope that it has a MagSafe charge adapter and an HDMI port.

<comment><USER76> I'm guessing you're trolling, but just in case not, or for anyone else who doesn't want to look at Apple's web page:

It's four USB-C/thunderbolt ports, two on each side, and a head-phone jack.

BTW, magsafe is an optimization from a bygone era when you had to keep your laptop plugged in while using it. You can now (generally) leave your laptop unplugged as you use it and stow it somewhere out-of-the way to charge when you aren't. Like your phone or tablet. Magsafe is nice, but probably not worth it now that you don't need to routinely charge your laptop in a vulnerable position. And, of course, USB-C is very easy to plug in.

<comment><USER231> It would be ideal if Apple could figure out a way to make a magnetic USB-C port. At the end of the day, the USB-C cable brings much convenience but it is loose and constantly comes out, just slightly to lose the charge.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER232> I was thinking to buy that line of MB, but since September I fully switched to Linux after being OSX user for the last 14 years. I ditched my mbp for a Dell XPS 7390 (latest model, 16GB RAM, i7 10th). Me and my girl couldn't be happier.

Me, because I ditched that monopolistic machine, which you can't fully enjoy if you are not in Apple's ecosystem. The only Apple machine I have is macbook. Even my desktop was a hackintosh. As a developer Linux gave me extreme freedom. The only thing I miss, is the touchpad but I learned to live without it.

My girl because I gave her my Macbook Pro 2015 and moved away from windows, win-win situation, the machine will just "work"

</comment><comment><USER233> I guess the return of HDMI and MagSafe was too much to hope for :(

</comment><comment><USER234> As the keyboard replacement program starts ending next year for the earliest lemons it will be interesting to see if Apple voluntarily recalls and replaces anything with these.

</comment><comment><USER235> "the worlds best pro notebook" ? According to whom ?

<comment><USER236> Probably Apple.

</comment></comment><comment><USER237> About bloody time, Apple.

Too bad I bought a ThinkPad back in June after THREE YEARS of ESC'less computing. This after almost two decades of not even looking at non-Mac machines.

</comment><comment><USER238> Would it KILL them to build a regular keyboard with function keys? It's a $100 part...

I can't be the only software engineer who refuses to buy it on this one major issue.

</comment><comment><USER239> Hello, 2019!

Real talk, if I could easily do my own repairs, and HW replacements on it, I would get it.

Typed on the flawless keyboard of my insanely awesome, truly immersive, MBP 17" Mid 2010.

</comment><comment><USER240> Something I found hilarious:

I just clicked through to the purchasing page, and at the top there is this:

"Get a refund of up to $2530 when you trade in an eligible computer, or recycle it for free.*"

If you click it, it asks you to choose if your trade in was made by Apple, or "Other" \- if you select "Other", it says:

"Based on what you've told us, your computer is ready to recycle"

Beneath, not so hilariously, there was:

"It's a big win for the planet. Recycling your device helps replenish resources and drive innovation."

Come on, this is marketing spin at it's worst, and not the kind of thing I'd expect a "hipster" company like Apple to say!

</comment><comment><USER98> Why does everyone seem grateful that they kept the headphone jack? Where did Apple give the impression that they would remove it from a more stationary device?

<comment><USER241> Apple sent a survey asking once how macbook owners would feel if they removed it.

They believe the answer is going to be Bluetooth.

<comment><USER242> Music production is usually Mac at this point, and that requires wired headphones/speakers. Not sure it's big enough of a market that Apple wouldn't drop it anyway, but Bluetooth latencies are too high to be a substitute there.

<comment><USER243> Anyone doing pro music work will have a USB interface anyway.

But, like, people listen to music and watch videos on their laptops, and it would be absurd to force them to use bluetooth headphones for no good reason.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER244> I checked my trade in value for my 2018 MBP. $1130. Come to think of it, my 15 inch is actually pretty big, so I'll wait to get the next generation.

</comment><comment><USER245> My first laptop was an Apple PowerBook 140 and I've owned a succession of Mac laptops since then (Wallstreet, G4 Aluminum, 2012 & 2017 Macbook Pro) and yet I'm typing this on a Surface Pro because I had such a poor experience with the 2017 Macbook Pro that I'll probably never go back. That keyboard was such junk that I literally feel like Apple robbed me. I really regret not returning the computer within the two week window for a full refund. I realize this rant isn't very productive but I still hope the ghost of Steve Jobs reads it.

</comment><comment><USER246> Wouah , what a nice price! How do thzy people buying at such jigh price tage? Always amazed... even if the software and hardware are really great!

</comment><comment><USER247> "Bigger, better, and more broken than ever before."

(Disclosure: My 2017 MBP has been repaired 8x and replaced 1x. My iPhone repaired 1x and replaced 1x.)

</comment><comment><USER248> So Apple made a decent MacBook Pro again. Good. But they still haven't made things right for the lemon they sold me. My keyboard is still not working, even after I handed it in for repair twice. Now I'm expected to shell out a few more grand just to have a working f key, and Apple is not even willing to acknowledge that they for years sold faulty products to gullible idiots like me.

Would it really hurt their octibajillion dollar valuation too much to just make things right for the customers who got shafted by their broken keyboard design?

</comment><comment><USER249> I find it bizarre that Apple hasn't cottoned on to the market for 14" laptops yet.

Easily the best tradeoff for me between screensize and carry-ability.

</comment><comment><USER250> Do advertising exaggerations belong in a post title?

</comment><comment><USER251> I think the next logical step for Apple is to use textual analysis on this HN thread to optimise for what the following change should be...

</comment><comment><USER252> Can't wait for the 2021 MBP where the keys are even higher in action akin to the 2011 MBPs, and the full Function Key row is restored.

</comment><comment><USER253> $2800 in USA and $3600 (€3200) in Europe. "Inspiring" difference... Maybe it will be less expensive to order from the USA...

<comment><USER254> US prices don't include tax, EU prices do. Compare the ex vat price to the US price.

<comment><USER253> Then price is almost same ($2870). Thank you, didn't know that about the US price. Now I feel stupid. Meh.

<comment><USER255> Also, there are import taxes for stuff not from EU.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER256> Wish they wouldn't call the display "immersive", especially with the knowledge that they're working on AR glasses.

</comment><comment><USER257> Still with the annoying and disruptive touch bar.

</comment><comment><USER118> > 96W USB‑C Power Adapter

That's a big deal for everyone. I do not know why it's not 100W but I will take what I can get. You see, Apple landing on 87W for their USB C adapter led to a lot of third party chargers also being 87W (or if multiple ports then one maxing out there) which is very frustrating to those who need more oomph. There's something to be said about education in the US when you need to explain to people a higher wattage charger doesn't damage their equipment...

</comment><comment><USER258> I paid $4k for a 2017 Macbook Pro and if I want to trade-in this device to get a new one, I am getting only $1k. This is bullshit.

</comment><comment><USER259> What's the best option for getting rid of a 2016-18 mbp? Do you think they'll do direct swaps when our keyboards fail?

</comment><comment><USER260> Awesome, can I get this but 12" and without the touchbar? In fact can I just get a 12" powerbook with new guts?

</comment><comment><USER261> Configured with 8 TB? That is more than they allow you to purchase with iCloud... wonder how that will break things

</comment><comment><USER262> Man I really want to upgrade for that keyboard, but they don't have the early 2019 models on their trade in :(

</comment><comment><USER263> A bit disappointed it still sports an LCD screen, although expected.

I guess LED screen is left for the next iteration of innovation.

<comment><USER88> Is it innovation if others already have it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER264> Fin-all-y, Apple. Took you 4 years to release a notebook with a sensible keyboard.

Sass aside, thank you. I'm very pleased!

</comment><comment><USER265> Do I see an actual, physical escape key? That's probably my only gripe with my 2019 macbook pro 13"

</comment><comment><USER266> for whatever reason wishing for anything different always gets downvotes for Apple.

I like the changes. I wish they would target weight next. 2kg is nearly twice as heavy as the same size LG Gram and 33% heavier than then 17" LG Geam.

No, I don't want an LG Gram but I would love a lighter 16" MacBook Pro.

</comment><comment><USER267> But can you buy it WITHOUT a touch bar?

</comment><comment><USER268> Wow, there's only one kind of sleeve: Made of leather (non-vegan) and quite expensive. Bummer!

</comment><comment><USER269> Now we need the the 13" version as well and we are back in 2015 (with slight improvements).

</comment><comment><USER270> Now if they would just support the new 7nm AMD mobile processors, I'd buy one of these without question. But I have a feeling that next spring I'll have to choose between this Mac and lower compute performance or a half price Linux model from some Asian company with ~50% more oomph. Tough call. If you're a developer, which would you pick?

</comment><comment><USER271> What the heck is that thing above the number keys? It looks like a strip of a touchscreen.

<comment><USER272> It is, that's the Touch Bar that has replaced the function keys on MacBook Pros. Not a fan at all as I use the fn keys a lot on a MacBook but I can't see them getting rid of it for a while

</comment></comment><comment><USER137> I ordered one. It will be replacing my 2017 with a swollen battery and messed up keyboard. I'm worried I'm throwing good money after bad, but hopefully the MacBook Pro is back on it's game.

I'll be taking the 2017 to the Apple store and get them to fix it up under their keyboard (and hopefully battery) replacement program.

</comment><comment><USER273> My only hope now is that my current MBP fails and i can get a new one under apple care.

</comment><comment><USER274> Let's hope this gets other manufacturers to also release some 16" laptops.

</comment><comment><USER275> How can one use a laptop for several hours every day without developing neck pain!?

</comment><comment><USER276> I wonder how many developers purchase MBP that don't require to build iOS apps or install xcode.

I realize i don't even look at other laptop makers just because i need to build iOS apps (which in theory shouldn't have any kind of relation) That's probably the textbook definition of monopolistic abuse.

<comment><USER277> Out of myself and my nine coworkers (all developers) I believe that 6 of the 10 use MPBs. We don't build iOS apps or use Xcode. I should also note that we have a BYOD policy so.

</comment></comment><comment><USER278> > The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Thank god for the return to sanity

</comment><comment><USER279> Nice. Hope these changes make it down to the 13" (or new 14") model.

</comment><comment><USER280> Is it just me, or does the touch bar remind anyone else of the MS Word Ribbon?

</comment><comment><USER281> "The escape key is back, which is great." 2 minutes into the video.

</comment><comment><USER282> Apple: `git revert keyboard`

<comment><USER283> more like "git cherry-pick esc"

</comment></comment><comment><USER284> I don't get it why they remove the full size left and right arrow key?

</comment><comment><USER285> Around the world thousands of vim users rejoice over the physical esc key.

</comment><comment><USER286> It's about time. Looks like they incorporated a lot of feedback.

</comment><comment><USER287> Anyone know why they didn't use the latest 10th gen processors?

</comment><comment><USER288> Just bought the 15" 10 days ago... Hating myself already... :(

<comment><USER289> I believe Apple lets you return for up to 14 days last time I checked. I assume you'd just have to wait a while for actual availability.

<comment><USER288> will do that , thanks!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER290> I am still pretty astonished at the strict lack of the ports you would expect on a typical pro laptop: Ethernet, HDMI and at least one USB-A in particular. As someone who occasionally forgets to bring dongles with me, it's a bit of a shame.

</comment><comment><USER291> Why do they get away with saying the world's best pro notebook" when I don't see anything materially better than the dell precision 55xx and 75xx line?

More pixels in the 15.6 Xeon chip 5ghz 128GB ECC memory

I guess I'm wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?

<comment><USER292> > I guess I'm wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?

Apple have probably decided that it is the best because it has the best hardware that is running OSX. I think they consider any other OS inferior, no matter what hardware it is running on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER293> > The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Hallelujah!!

</comment><comment><USER294> I'm kind of amazed that people want a better laptop speaker. I feel that's like the one thing that could be just decent and nobody would complain. Everybody I see either uses headphones or a bluetooth speaker.

</comment><comment><USER295> Looks like an upgrade, for sure. I'd look at it if they did a few more things:

1) Ryzen Options; Icelake Options 2) Regular USB 3 Ports and 3.5mm Jack 3) Make the Touchbar Optional. 4) Do not solder stuff to the Board.

</comment><comment><USER296> Ah yes, nothing says satisfying like 1mm of key travel

</comment><comment><USER297> Can't wait for a review of how the thermals work.

</comment><comment><USER67> Well at least it's not 3000USD as was rumored :)

</comment><comment><USER298> This is quite amazing...Wish I could afford it.

</comment><comment><USER299> Friendly reminder:

it's == (it is | it has)

It's my responsibility to correct grammar. it's been tough for the Lions this year.

its == (the thing belonging to it) You should always judge a book by its cover.

</comment><comment><USER300> I'm so happy about all the keyboard changes.

</comment><comment><USER301> Anyone has price prediction for this beast ?

<comment><USER107> It's starting at the same price as the previous one, $2399

<comment><USER101> I was surprised, and pleased to see this. 512GB as the base SSD as well.

I'd like to see some video card benchmarks.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER302> Prediction: These comments will be obscenely hostile toward the new device, yet the new device will rank among Apple's best selling computers to-date.

</comment><comment><USER303> I would pay $1000 extra for no Touch Bar.

</comment><comment><USER304> It makes me always hard laugh when they do claims like "The world's best pro notebook", "the most performant notebook", etc.

<comment><USER305> The hyperbole really isn't cute anymore after all of the fuckups. Like, some humility this time would be great. "We listened. We made some mistakes, but we want to fix them." Don't come out guns blazing like "this is the BEST laptop EVAR!" You don't get to claim the world's best anything when some people have been waiting the length of an entire presidential administration just to buy a usable laptop from you.

</comment></comment><comment><USER306> Still buying refurbrished 2015 model.

</comment><comment><USER307> I've waited for this for so long

</comment><comment><USER308> When does a 14" mbp come out?

</comment><comment><USER309> Imagine being excited for this...

</comment><comment><USER310> I got to the 3rd "the world's best pro notebook" before I even finished the first sentence and gave up.

</comment><comment><USER311> No NVIDIA GPU means No CUDA :(

</comment><comment><USER312> People pay a lot of money for what is in reality an abridged notebook.

"Look, we give you your Esc and arrow keys back"

it's a scam.

</comment><comment><USER313> a couple of months ago I bought a fully decked out 15" for $6k CAD; for the same amount, I can now get a 16", and double the storage and slightly better graphics.

What the hell! I'm going to try getting a replacement from Apple. The 15" upgrade that I got was just announced too when I got it.

</comment><comment><USER161> good thing that john ivey has left apple.. this is a good direction change.

</comment><comment><USER314> dongles. pros want dongles!

</comment><comment><USER152> Look at the battery, 100Wh!

</comment><comment><USER315> Why does every Apple promo read like a Trump speech or propaganda out of North Korea? "Most superlatives ever!" Am I being facetious? This kind of excessive language - every single time - is actually a big turnoff to trusting Apple's product announcements. With such excessive adjectives, I can't take it seriously.

<comment><USER316> _With such excessive adjectives, I can 't take it seriously._

Oh, but you trust every word of the press releases issued by other companies? C'mon, it's a press release, not a canonical religious document.

</comment></comment><comment><USER308> Still waiting for the 14"

</comment><comment><USER317> Still using Intel though.

</comment><comment><USER318> The best escape key ever!

</comment><comment><USER319> Still no LTE modem?

<comment><USER107> I feel like LTE modems in laptops are pointless since virtually every smartphone is capable of creating private hotspot to share LTE connection.

<comment><USER320> They pretty much only exist in business laptops because in that context it can be useful to issue someone a field laptop with a SIM in it, and it doesn't really mean much for cost on a large corporate data plan.

<comment><USER319> Yes, "business" and "Pro" users would benefit more than most others.

<comment><USER107> "Pro" in Apple backyard means nothing

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER321> Why does it still have an aux port? I thought Apple had courage.

<comment><USER322> It doesn't cost anything in this form factor, and laptop users are more likely to use corded headphones, rather than earbuds.

</comment></comment><comment><USER323> Sorry, that keyboard has screwed me too many times.

</comment><comment><USER324> OpenCL? Cuda?

Please tell me how I do proper GPU compute on a Mac.

</comment><comment><USER325> About time!

</comment><comment><USER326> Still no MagSafe charger. Instant skip.

</comment><comment><USER327> Where are my damn F-Keys?

</comment><comment><USER328> Could @mods please editorialize the title. "The world's best pro notebook" is marketing speech and not a fact.

<comment><USER329> TIL there are mods here.

<comment><USER216> AFAIK, basically there are two: dang and sctb. That may have changed, but this topic is not routinely discussed and I have not heard otherwise. Cultivating HN seems to be their full time job.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER330> I urge everyone to remember Apples actions regarding HK protests,specifically how they are able to remove an app from the store, without any easy way to side load it on devices.

Also keep in mind that warranty and repairs on Mac products are a complete ripoff.

</comment><comment><USER331> Is there any way to know if this will support a 5K monitor at dot-by-dot resolution..?

</comment><comment><USER332> I think this is the first Apple laptop in 4-5 years that I feel like I can buy.

</comment><comment><USER333> Too little, too late. If it weren't for the OS, which they are also butchering, I would've moved away from Apple sooner.

</comment><comment><USER334> This marketing wank actually makes my blood pressure rise.

</comment><comment><USER335> Will the fan make something this time or will it be a placebo again?

</comment><comment><USER336> Still has the touchbar.

"Hey Siri, wake me up next year."

</comment><comment><USER337> $2,399 For escape key - Not bad. Maybe next year we'll get full keyboard for $3,399!

<comment><USER107> To be fair it's a bit more than just ESC key.

</comment></comment><comment><USER338> I can't see myself spending this much for a laptop but I guess there is a market for it.

</comment><comment><USER339> Why wouldn't we say firm no, until the classic keys are fully back.

</comment><comment><USER340> right... a "Pro" computer with only USB-C ports, no HDMI out, no SD card reader, soldered memory.... dongle dongle dongle. no thanks. (before i'm accused of being a troll. I have a MBP with all those things circa 2005 or so, it's old and slow AF now. But still works for what I use it for and I have quite a few PC laptops as well.

</comment><comment><USER341> Apple must have sunk some serious cash into the touch bar. I can't believe it is still a thing.

<comment><USER342> They're just notoriously bad at admitting being wrong. Just look at how many keyboard iterations it took to get back to the old working keyboards.

For me personally think this could work, not having an esc button was a deal breaker for me but this might just convince me to finally upgrade my old mbp retina

</comment></comment><comment><USER343> Please give the same keyboard at the less than $1500 price point on the regular MacBook models. Also, give us ports and please stop with the thinner == better. This is a great step but I'm not spending $2600 on a new machine.

<comment><USER46> A good guess would be that all laptops will get this new keyboard over the next year. There is no benefit to Apple shipping a keyboard that is in a repair program day one (which all of the butterflies are). This new keyboard is not part of the repair program because apparently Apple thinks it will be reliable.

</comment></comment><comment><USER92> I'm thrilled that they've rolled back some of the worst post-2015 MBP changes. I'm a vim user, so I was never going to switch to something without a physical escape key. The key travel on the new machines were terrible; it's like typing on a piece of glass. Most importantly -- regardless of whether or not I have an external keyboard plugged in (sometimes I do, right now I don't) -- an internal keyboard needs to be reliable! I'm really glad Apple has seen the light and returned to the reliable scissor switched keys that I'm currently typing on.

My Late 2013 MBP has been serving me well for the last 5 or so years, but I've been wanting to upgrade it ever since 2016 (the battery life is quite poor & the GPU is showing its age). I refused once I saw the changes in the 2016 MBP, and was glad I never bought in after seeing more and more complaints about the machines roll in every subsequent year. I spent the next two years hoping for a redesign & started to give up. As much as I didn't want to, I've been spending the past few months looking at ThinkPads and Dells and mapping out my transition from OS X to Linux.

As much as I love OS X (and I do -- I've been dreading having to leave it), I just could not spend $2000+ dollars on a computer that I was going to have to fight with to make it work like my old one. This is going to be a daily driver, not a novelty or a toy. Yes, I could've remapped my escape key to caps lock. Yes, I could've bought a bigger laptop bag that could fit a small external keyboard. Yes, I could have learned to live with the new key travel. This is all beside the point if you ask me: I shouldn't have to do that.

Frankly, I'd be okay if Apple kept the old model around, as some people (including many commenters above me) have grown to prefer the butterfly keyboard. Maybe some people prefer the extra touch bar space? (I don't see why it has to be one or the other; I remember how many MBP variations/SKUs Apple carried when I started buying MBPs back in 2010.)

Just give me the option to opt out of these things -- even _most_ of these things -- and I'll keep writing you checks. I'm looking forward to doing this in a couple months assuming the reviews on this machine are good.

<comment><USER344> As a fellow vim user, I highly recommend mapping caps lock to escape anyway. It's a huge game changer whether you have a physical escape key or not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER345> For less money something more open and more powerful? [https://system76.com/laptops/galago](https://system76.com/laptops/galago)

Here is a nickel kid: buy yourself a real computer -Dilbert

<comment><USER107> Can I use on it my company provided Adobe suit to create images, sprites and mockups and then use them to create iOS apps?

<comment><USER346> Sure, just install OSX-KVM and run macOS as a VM

<comment><USER107> And it's all perfectly legal and as user friendly as picking up brand, spanky new MBP from Apple Store?

<comment><USER347> Well, you also get $1550 in cash when buying the base model. I am sure that this is more than enough to pay someone to make it just as user friendly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER348> I don't believe this press release indicates which ports the laptop has. I assumed that meant it had a crappy selection, and further googling proves correct - 4 Thunderbolts and a headphone jack.

In my eyes, that makes it a non-starter for an alleged "Pro" laptop. For the professional work I do, an SD card reader (for photos and video), HDMI/DisplayPort (for presentations, either in the boardroom or better viewing of photos and videos), USB A (because thumb drives), and for my specific work, an ethernet jack, are all required to do my job. Also magsafe power is a lifesaver.

I'll be holding onto my 2014 15" until it's cold and dead. And if Apple still doesn't have a suitable replacement, Lenovo likely will still have great pro laptops.

</comment><comment><USER349> It feels as though Apple looked at the two biggest complaints, and gave the smallest concessions they possibly could.

• The keyboard uses scissor switches (and thus hopefully won't completely die), but still only has 1mm of key travel.

• They added back an escape key to the top row, but the touch bar is still there—and there's still no function keys as a result.

The keyboard, okay, _maybe_ Apple really needs those thinness metrics for marketing purposes—but would it really have killed them to up the travel to 2mm? And, why the heck are they so dug in on the touchbar? While I admittedly only have anecdotal evidence, I think it's relatively clear at this point that neither users nor developers have taken to it in any significant way. Just kill it already. It's been three years—if people haven't discovered how amazing it is by now, they aren't going to have a sudden awakening.

<comment><USER350> > maybe Apple really needs those thinness metrics for marketing purposes

Surely the thinness of the keyboards hasn't been relevant in marketing in a while? what kind of consumer does this excite? Surprised Apple are still shouting about it.

<comment><USER349> I don't know! I would think so, but then why do they keep doing it?

I legitimately don't understand why you wouldn't add just a tiny bit more key travel. Typing is one of the primary functions of a laptop.</comment></comment></comment>