Encoding data into dubstep drops - <AUTHOR> https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/encoding-data-into-dubstep-drops <comment><USER2> Neat, it's always really cool to see folks get their feet wet in the DSP field! (Props to the author for trying to get through the dense Wikipedia pages.)

Minor correction for the author: this isn't amplitude-shift keying, and the way to tell is to look at how demodulation works. The detection code asks if a sample is negative or positive, but "how large is this sample?" is never asked. An ASK demodulator effectively thresholds the signal on amplitude and in the simplest case this boils down to "is there a signal or not?"

The implemented code has some flavor of phase-shift keying (the inversion of a sine wave flips the phase 180 degrees), but since there isn't guaranteed to be a steady carrier, it seems like it'd be hard to decode as a pure PSK. The all- sample offset (constant above or below zero) can also be treated in a way as a PSK process, with the carrier being DC (0Hz).

</comment><comment><USER3> Check Aphex Twin - Equation if you haven't already [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9xMuPWAZW8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9xMuPWAZW8)

<comment><USER4> For the impatient, skip towards the end (zinger at 5:20):

[https://youtu.be/M9xMuPWAZW8?t=295](https://youtu.be/M9xMuPWAZW8?t=295)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Since the data is being encoded with a signal processing trick that is inaudible to human ears this could work in any song with 0-100hz frequencies, right?

I was little disappointed when I didn't hear intense dialup-modem-like sounds encoding data I'm the midrange

<comment><USER6> It's not inaudible. Human hearing extends down to around 20Hz but also some speakers have terrible frequency response down that low so it might mask it better but the tone isn't low enough to be completely inaudible.

<comment><USER7> Comparing the before and after samples, there is definitely an audible difference for this pair of ears.

To be fair, I listened to the after sample first and it sounded like regular old Skrillex to me.

I scrolled up and listened to the before sample and noticed that the bass was deeper and more harmonious with the higher end frequencies. Basically, the original sample has a "subsonic" vibrations that resonate in time and "harmony" with the higher end sounds. (Also, I'm using higher-end earphones with custom ear canal sleeves to listen.)

So, I probably wouldn't have noticed anything unusual if I'd only listened to the modified bass drop, but I can hear the difference when comparing the two.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm pretty sure that this would drop the volume of the 0-100hz range to half the volume since we dropped the amplitude to 1/2 and shifted. Any sound system with loud subwoofers would be able to detect the difference, but woofer only systems would probably leave the modification mostly undetectable.

<comment><USER9> spot on. also there's likely to be some phase issues in some mixes

aside: seems to be a smooth enough lerp between bits so as not to destroy speakers, but might cause a record needle to jump (can anyone more versed weigh in here?)

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> Great article about encoding; this is similar to the DRM the PS3 uses on video content. It's a low bit rate signal, but after enough time of the movie playing enough bits are generated to trigger the DRM flag and stop playback.

<comment><USER11> Cinavia is similar: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia)

Can't find stuff about Digital Restriction Management for the PS3, you sure there was something inside the video stream?

<comment><USER12> Pretty sure they're talking about Cinavia, as the PS3 was one of the most well-known implementors of it.

<comment><USER11> Yes, but that's in the audio signal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Very cool. I suspect there is something unique going on with dubstep "drops" and dopamine release. There is a reason it engages peoples basest systems.

<comment><USER14> "drops" have their equivalent in every other form of music. Breakdowns in hardcore, choruses in pop music, it's just a catchy part of any tune that people easily grab onto.

<comment><USER15> Drops certainly have equivalents in other music, but I don't think those are good comparisons.

I don't think the defining feature of drops is their catchiness, but the slowly building tension and sudden release.

<comment><USER16> > Drops certainly have equivalents in other music, but I don't think those are > good comparisons.

seriously?

dubstep is just 'another' form of eletctronic dance music..

and, to be opinionated, basically rhythmically dumbed-down drum&bass which itself is rhythmically dumbed down jungle which itself is rhythmically more complicated hardcore techno minus the 4-to-the-floor bass drums of the 'main' tune...

also: get off my lawn. :b

<comment><USER15> I wasn't making any value judgments about dubstep or anything else, I was discussing the definition and semantics of what a 'drop' is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> It felt very strange reading this, as it was nearly identical to a project I did in college for a class about discrete time signal analysis. We had to decipher encoded messages embedded within Crawling in the Dark by Hoobastank. The sound clip was: "is there something more than what I've been handed?" Funny professor.

</comment><comment><USER18> We miss you over at Facepunch, Ben. Good to see WAYWO on HN, though. Hope you're doing well! :)

</comment><comment><USER9> does the hive mind know what the commandline tool is that he used for displaying audio spectrum?

(or @benjojo12 if you're watching... your setup has inspired me, and I want to play)

</comment><comment><USER19> While reading the post I kept thinking "this would be a really cool project to present at RC." Then I saw the end :)

Cool project!

</comment><comment><USER20> This is super cool! I really enjoyed the animations in your writeup as well. Thanks for sharing!

</comment><comment><USER21> How about mp3 (or other) compression? Would not the information be lost?

<comment><USER22> the codecs in most lossy compression formats usually nuke the phase information so here in this example as ASK is being used there isnt any lost of information. If he tried to encode phase changes in the sound then you wouldnt recover it since the decoder regenerates the audio with 0 deg phase.

<comment><USER23> What do you mean by "nuke the phase information"?

<comment><USER24> Probably just that mp3 compression loses phase information? As it indeed does.

<comment><USER23> Can you elaborate? What specifically about mp3 compression causes the phase information to be lost? Clearly, if you simply take IDCT(DCT(s)) for some signal s, you don't lose phase information, because the DCT is invertible. So are you saying that quantization causes the phase information to be lost? If so, why do binaural recordings still work fine when compressed as mp3s, given that they depend heavily on phase differences between the sounds reaching each ear?

<comment><USER24> > If so, why do binaural recordings still work fine when compressed as mp3s, > given that they depend heavily on phase differences between the sounds > reaching each ear?

That's a very good point. If phase information is lost, low frequency stereo sound localization should indeed suffer.

Also discrete cosine transformation indeed keeps phase.

I guess mp3 shouldn't be losing phase information after all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> worth noting that causing a speaker to vibrate around .5 and -.5 for a bit and then quickly swapping might mess with high end hardware. super cool though.

<comment><USER26> Surely it's more likely to mess with low-end speakers?

Wouldn't high-end speakers be built to withstand anything within their operating range?

<comment><USER27> They're built to create sound, not hold themselves in one direction for an extended period of time</comment></comment></comment>


Avenger controller company pisses off gaming community with bad customer support - <AUTHOR> http://penny-arcade.com/2011/12/26/just-wow1 <comment><USER2> From about five seconds of Google, it looks like the actual product was made by David Kotkin and is considered to be rather significant for disabled users.

[http://www.ablegamers.com/hardware-news/interview-with- aveng...](http://www.ablegamers.com/hardware-news/interview-with-avenger- controller-creator-david-kotkin.html)

Paul Christoforo is just some schmuck at the contracted marketing company, because the product was put together by an art teacher trying to make small- quantity disability aids and not someone trying to launch a major business.

Due diligence regarding fact-checking has apparently slipped below the threshold of "punch it into Google."

<comment><USER3> I wonder if anyone at Ocean Marketing and among the people who make Avengers had any idea how Paul Christoforo rolls.

Another point towards "trust but check" policy towards your employees.

<comment><USER4> From the looks of it, Paul Christoforo = Ocean Marketing.

The website [1] lists "firstname.lastname@example.com" as the only email address, and the bio for the Twitter account "oceanmarketting" has his name and picture as avatar.

[1] <http://oceanmarketinginc.com/Contact-Us.php>

<comment><USER5> I think that's all correct, except for the Twitter account, which I believe was created by another disgruntled customer (Nathan Stansell) a few months ago, following a similar exchange with Paul Christoforo. It looks like Stansell is now retweeting messages related to the new controversy.

<http://www.natesnetwork.com/Poor-customer-service>

 _"2:45 am. Created a Twitter account just so i could Tweet a comment and link to Mr Paul Christoforo at Ocean Marketing. @OceanMarketting - Am i still one little person out of Millions sir?"_

<comment> mkr-hn That was the right account, but it changed. Someone registered the old name and started tweeting stuff. The website was still pulling tweets from the original account a few minutes ago.

The new account for the original is <https://twitter.com/#!/oceanstratagy>

<comment><USER5> Ocean _Stratagy_? How could either of these misspelled Twitter accounts be legit?

<comment><USER6> The evidence points to illiteracy.

<comment><USER7> Oh, my goodness. A truly funny comment on Hacker News. Thank you for this.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> At the risk of taking a potentially unpopular opinion on the subject, I don't think either one of those people come out looking too good.

I'm all for doing the whole "CC your formal complaint letter to several outlets in hopes that someone will take notice" approach; My brother taught me about doing this when I was a little kid. He would write letters (this was before the advent of the internet) and note on the bottom that they had been CCd to various local news outlets, as well as the better business bureau (regardless of whether or not he actually sent those additional letters). And almost always, it worked.

But I would be absolutely embarrassed to have my name attached to his complaint that got sent around. He is understandably, and in some cases justifiably, upset by the companies lack of communication and flippant nature, but this is no time to get into a pissing match. He chose to stoop to the guys level with name calling and taunting: Welcome to the internet bitch? Thats how I roll? It sounds like something you'd see on a meme, not something you want to end a complaint letter with.

That said, the guy on Oceans end is clearly the winner when it comes to idiotic behavior, as he further digs his own grave down the line. I just can't cut the customer any slack on stooping to Oceans level, however. He comes off sounding like almost as big of an idiot as the guy at Ocean.

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure others will see it differently

<comment><USER9> > _I'm all for doing the whole "CC your formal complaint letter to several > outlets in hopes that someone will take notice" approach;_

I recognise that many people working in customer support roles have lousy jobs with lousy wages and are treated like dirt by customers and by bosses.

So my first approach is a nice, short, letter explaining the problem and asking for help. People like to help, and they like to help nice people. If I get help I always follow up with thanks to them, and if possible I find a manager to write to saying how pleased I am that a problem was sorted out by $NAME.

I agree that having your name attached to some childish ranting is not a good approach at all.

<comment><USER10> As someone who works in support on a daily basis, I can vouch that being nice makes everything go a whole lot smoother.

<comment><USER9> The other tip I heard (which has worked for me) is to say something like "I need help to ask the right question, because I don't know how the process works. Here's what I want; what do I need to do to make that happen?". This is more for bureaucracy but also works for some customer service stuff.

<comment><USER11> As someone else who worked in customer service, this is very true. There is a lot of stuff we're not allowed to offer, but if you specifically ask for it we can give it to you. So please, ask questions, and be polite. No one calls customer service to say "everything I bought works perfectly and I'm happy with you and your company. Have an awesome day!"

I dealt with angry people just about every second of every day. The job has huge turnover for a reason. Please remember you're dealing with your fellow man, and even if you're angry, it's not (yet) his or her fault that you are.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The takeaway seems to be don't let a raging idiot near customers in the first place.

There's a second documented encounter with the guy from 6 months ago: <http://www.natesnetwork.com/Poor-customer-service>

<comment><USER13> Paul Christoforo should never be in charge of a customer facing position.

Maybe he should take the advice on (his) Ocean Marketing's front page: "Your brand is no stronger than your reputation - and will increasingly depend on what comes up when you are Googled."

I wonder what will come up after all this is over.

<comment><USER14> I picture Paul like a real life Tom Haverford from Parks. The "you got told bitch" line is pure Tom.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Both IGN and Engadget have tweeted about this:

.@OceanMarketting Please refrain from referring to me or IGN as support for you, your company or your clients. You do not have it.

<http://twitter.com/#!/ScottLowe/status/151595644182740992>

<http://twitter.com/#!/engadget/status/151673881671905281>

</comment><comment><USER16> The guy must fancy himself as a bit of a mob boss/gangster. Maybe got too into The Sopranos? There's a point where you can start reading it all in Chris Moltisanti's voice.

The fella making the complaint was hardly better, but seeing as the guy he was talking to was being unprofessional (at the very least) right off the bat, his only fault is letting his frustration get the better of him.

<comment><USER17> One of the golden rules of Sicilian "organized crime syndicates" is that you never, ever introduce yourself as a member or as someone who is connected. It is a hard and fast requirement that you are introduced by someone else who is inside.

This goes back to the earliest days of protection racketeering on the island, and is taken extremely seriously even today.

I'm not sure if the Campania/Napolitani families follow the same tradition, but it's a pretty good bet that if someone even so much as implies that they're "connected" to an Italian syndicate, they're not.

Also, if you think pretending to be a cop is a bad idea, try pretending to be affiliated with gangsters...

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Yeah, the inventor David Kotkin is/was a teacher and inventor in Miami Florida, he was actually on local news demoing it. It seems it is being sold by a company called iNcontrol Enterprises LLC.

Interestingly, all the press releases up until march 2011 for iNcontrol were done by a florida operation called The HAND Media who seem slightly more legit than Ocean Marketing.

Ocean marketing seems to be mainly interested in promoting his ebay auctions on Twitter.

Someone needs to get in touch with Kotkin and let him know the situation, that his marketing firm seems to have fallen down on the job.

<comment><USER18> The biz dev guy from n-control is on the case <https://twitter.com/Tatterr>

<comment><USER17> I love how this guy's tweets are all him announcing what game he's playing until this controversy flared up. He must be pretty annoyed about the dent this is making in his non-stop gaming lifestyle.

<comment><USER18> I actually feel bad for these guys. They put trust in a supposedly professional,albeit somewhat slimy seeming with the pushing ebay auctions on the corporate Twitter account, marketing firm and this blows up over Christmas weekend.

I worked with a really terrible marketing and pr firm myself when I was working for a small startup years ago. We were featured in the NYT, but our PR firm misrepresented us in such an insane way we could only conclude the firm didn't even know what we were doing. It turned what should have been a coup for us into a massive blow to our business.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Agreed neither came off very well. But for the PR guy this should have been a walk in the park to deal with. I used to do customer service at an oversized health insurance company this would have been considered a mild case. You make a note in your outlook (or whatever you use) to check on the situation every once in awhile, send a nicely worded email saying you are personally following the situation and when it is done thanks them for their patience. Sure customers are not always happy but let's face it the company broke its promise. Instead this PR guy gets his ego on and for that he should be fired. He was unprofessional when he should have known better.

</comment><comment><USER20> Here is the Google since it looks down right now:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://penny- arcade.com/2011/12/26/just-wow1&hl=en&strip=1)

</comment><comment><USER21> New update from Gabe: <http://penny-arcade.com/2011/12/26/an-update1>

"When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I've made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."

<comment><USER22> "I think there is a big difference between being sorry and being sorry you got caught. I have a real problem with bullies. I spent my childhood moving from school to school and I got made fun of everyplace I landed. I feel like Paul is a bully and maybe that's why I have no sympathy here. Someday every bully meets and even bigger bully and maybe that's me in this case. It's the same thing that happened with Jack Thompson. It might not always make the most business sense and it is a policy that has caused us some legal problems, but I really don't give a shit about that. When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I've made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."

I think in context the quoted line is more about how Gabe feels about bullies.

<comment><USER21> Apologies, I did not mean to misrepresent him.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Sigh. This may actually be good PR :(

I had never heard of this controller until this story. It looks really cool. How other many people is that true for?

edit/update: this story is #2 on the vanilla reddit front page.

<comment><USER24> Hah - that'd be a good story.

"I'll be a complete internet jerkwad, and get you in front of thousands of people. Disassociate yourself from me when the shit hits the fan."

As long as you're careful about not letting the internet detectives dig _too_ deeply, you could probably re-invent yourself and do this repeatedly.

However, I'm a little unsure how many people would be willing to work with you on this. Great tin-foil hat material though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Note the guy's Twitter account: @OceanMarketting (with two Ts!).

<comment><USER25> Actually, wait... he renamed it to @OceanStratagy! Yup, that last A is no typo!

<http://twitter.com/OceanStratagy>

And then someone else registered @OceanStrategy with the correct spelling:

<https://twitter.com/#!/OceanStrategy>

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I like how the guy is completely clueless about who he is talking to.

He is in marketing, and didn't know someone like that?

And this whole thing could have just been avoided with a measly $10 coupon.

<comment><USER27> Well according to the copy posted in the email "As a token of our appreciation we are offering all our pre-order customers and new customers 10$ off your next order with us just enter Avenger1001 at Checkout".

So the company was even offering that measly $10 coupon that the pre-order customer wanted!

<comment><USER28> Except that new customers could use that $10 on the controller that pre-order customers had already purchased, while pre-order customers would have to buy something else (your next order) in order to use the $10 coupon.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> What happened to talking to your customers in complete sentences?

<comment><USER30> When you're eating sushi in a Jacuzzi with the Mayor of Boston, you don't need to type well.

<comment><USER31> Have you ever heard the Mayor of Boston speak? You don't really even need to speak well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> Ok this will sound completely naive but whatever happened to the customer is always right? Ok yes, I agree that is a bit overstated but in this case he was right and Gabe came out all puffed up and aggressive from the start and continued and continued (I actually like at the end when he realizes who he is emailing back and forth to). Maybe I'm just naive but I believe the smart businessman (woman) puts the customers first.

</comment><comment><USER33> The whole thing seems too incredulous to be true and feels like a PR stunt.

If it is true, and it makes this guy's products even more popular, then I fear for fate of humanity.

</comment><comment><USER34> Surprisingly Paul Christoforo has also been in Health Care & Realty and has a degree in Culinary Arts... according to his LinkedIn page: <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-christoforo/1/295/835>

</comment><comment><USER35> I love the part where he tries to get back on Mike (Krahulik's) better side: "Did I feed into his emails a little bit too much yeah ok . But it's one person dude for real. No disrespect intended for you , My name is good in this industry and I know a lot of people."

But then goes off on one when Mike posts a slightly glib "take me off this mailing list"!

I agree with FuzzyDunlop, definitely been watching waaay too much Sopranos.

EDIT: The dude seriously needs to learn to punctuate sentences better, some of those could definitely use some commas!

<comment><USER36> His insistence on putting a space in front of punctuation marks alone makes me cringe.

<comment><USER37> I've noticed this is common amongst a number of dyslexics I've known.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Unfortunately firing Ocean Marketing may still be too little too late. Amazon ratings for the product[1] are already in the dumps because of this debacle, and I doubt many of those reviewers will go back and change their reviews as the situation goes along.

[1] <http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CMZJL6/>

</comment><comment><USER39> Reddit thread with on-going updates:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/ns2pu/pa_makers_of_a...](http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/ns2pu/pa_makers_of_avenger_controllers_take_money_and/c3bi6gs)

</comment><comment><USER40> Just love how some people's default is to be a dick instead of just simply saying sorry, we tried and things didn't work out.

</comment><comment><USER41> Is it just me, or does the customer come off as a bit of an asshole that's creating/feeding about 50% of the dramma he is complaining about.

<comment><USER42> The customer paid his money, and he got no controller, just bullshit excuses and evasion and abuse. That gives him the right to complain. And he certainly started with a reasonable tone.

It doesn't help that Christoforo is selling the controllers off his ebay account, which says they are shipping from Massachusetts, while his 'company' claims to be in California.

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/230687329514#ht_2193wt_1398>

So a paid order isn't filled on time, but this guy has controllers to sell on ebay?

Makes me wonder if he's been diverting the controllers, i.e. stealing them, and selling them out from under the company.

<comment><USER41> The way I read it went like this...

1\. Customer makes a $50 purchase. 2\. Merchant gets over his head with new business, makes some mistakes. 3\. Customer flips out on second email to merchant, tries to create problems for him with Visa. 4\. Customer proceeds into a "principle" (aka ego) driven exchange with merchant that goes nowhere, turns into some kind of a pissing contest.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> I am not pissed off at Ocean Marketing. In fact I love the put downs in their emails. Of course it was awful customer support. But damn. Mike K of Penny Arcade tries to flex his muscle saying he runs Pax. The Ocean Marketing rep did not give a damn, and took the piss out of him too. LMAO!

<comment><USER44> I think you missed it. Mike said he ran PAX, the guy didn't recognize the name and started tying to name drop and claiming he'd get a booth if he wanted one. When the penny dropped that mike == gabe, and there's no way they'll be at PAX if he doesn't want them there, the penny drops and his tone changes

<comment> ryan-allen And may I add, like a complete coward in the follow up [1] to Gabe, pleads for him to make it all stop, whatever it is. I think this bloke gets what he deserves.

Thought it's mostly just another idiot on the internet, there are lots of those. The grandiose clams he made about his connections and sales are probably false. The shock value is in the fact that he _might_ be connected and powerful and is acting as such, though connected powerful people don't do such a thing (over email, at least).

[1] <http://penny-arcade.com/resources/an-update1.html></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Java-based integration development learning path - <AUTHOR>

Hello all, I'm interested in getting my hands into integration. My background is Java based web development: Struts, Spring, some exposure to Grails. I don't have experience in web services or integration. The apps I've worked on were more CRUD-like systems without any integration.
I'm trying to figure out a learning path of where to start and what to learn next. The technology I want to get familiar with is: Camel, CXF, ActiveMQ. This is because that is what is used at the place I work. I'm not in a developer position at work and the people that do this type of work for us are a third party. I'm looking to learn some of this stuff on my own.
I'm looking for a more structured learning environment rather than just "playing with it". I think it would be a bit overwhelming to try to learn it all at once. Learning for me is easier when I focus on 1 thing at a time, which is why I want to break it up into pieces instead of throwing a bunch of tools together and figuring it out.
I'm open to doing virtual classroom courses. I found a 3-day Camel course offered by RedHat and it seems like it would be a good start.
For those that have experience with these tools, is Camel a good starting point? Then, say, look into CXF and ActiveMQ?
Thanks in advance for any advice. <comment><USER3> IMO, Camel pretty much rocks. The _Camel In Action_ book is pretty good too. I'm also a fan of ActiveMQ, although I may have a slight preference for HornetQ as far as Java based JMS providers go.

CXF is also good stuff.

I don't know about courses, but given the way I learn, here's what I'd do (and this isn't far from what I did when I first wanted to learn Camel) - <USER2> out some kind of project you can build, that could use Camel, and just start building it.

If you're already building apps using Spring/Grails/etc. then build yourself a simple little CRUD app of some sort... used a totally made up domain if you want (a buddy of mine was making a "Teletubby Tracker" app) and then start thinking about how you might decompose it into a more modular form ("SOA-ify" if you will) and then break the back-end out into services, expose then using CXF, and have your front-end put messages on a Queue, route with Camel, and then update the backend as appropriate. It's fine if it's made up, your goal is to learn, not to build The Next Big Thing, right?

Another piece you might add to the stack at some point is a BPM engine like Activiti.

This approach might or might not be for you (learning styles differ and all that), but "build something" has always worked best for me.

Also, and hopefully without being too self-promotional - if you want to hack on some of this stuff in the setting of a cool open source project, I have some stuff I'm working with that uses Grails, Camel, JMS, (not so much CXF though, at least not at the moment) and Activiti. If you would like to poke at our code and maybe get involved, shoot me an email and I'll try to help out.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the approach of building something, one piece at a time, is how I'll go with it. I just found it overwhelming to try to tackle too much all at once. After doing some more research and talking with a buddy that work in that area, I got my hands on Camel In Action, so I'll be starting there, adding other pieces as I go along. Thanks again :)

<comment><USER4> Hi, Check these out: [https://github.com/FuseByExample](https://github.com/FuseByExample) and also the sample code here: [https://github.com/CamelCookbook/camel-cookbook- examples](https://github.com/CamelCookbook/camel-cookbook-examples). You already know about Claus' work. Oh, Charles Moulliard [http://www.slideshare.net/cmoulliard](http://www.slideshare.net/cmoulliard) has a lot of good stuff too. Enjoy! Camel/AMQ/Fabric8 are a lot of fun. (as fun as integration can get)

<comment><AUTHOR> Bookmarked. Thanks!</comment></comment></comment></comment>


You can't impress developers. So don't try - <AUTHOR> https://baus.net/you-cant-impress-developers/ <comment><USER2> There are countless comments on Hacker News by a developer impressed with something. So this headline is wrong. What you can't do is impress all developers. But neither can you please all people. So the article's advice to "focus on impressing your users" could also lead to a very special kind of hell, about which more ink hath been spilt.

What the writer was really writing about, though, was that there is little acknowledgment of the effort that went into something, even if in the end it's not for you. Someone wrote a Python interpreter in JavaScript, and in that there is skill, even if overall you reject the effect. What the writer may be asking for is the attitude of a coach: "That was a fast throw, kid, now next time just see if you can aim it more over the plate." That is a legitimate want, and I think the forum would be better if there were more of it. But again, this isn't a deficiency endemic to developers, it's endemic to People on the Internet.

Key takeaway: seeking encouragement from anonymous or semianonymous people on the internet could be harmful.

<comment><USER3> Still, it is very hard to make developers _pay_ for software.

So on a different level, perhaps it _is_ hard to impress developers.

<comment><USER4> Yeah that's the biggest issue. Many developers (myself included) seem to refuse to pay for software. At least normal users are willing to accept ads and data collection in exchange for getting a free service, but we developers don't even accept that.

<comment><USER5> Assuming that a majority of developers refuse to pay for software is, in my opinion, an exageration.

I feel that we are in a position where we can estimate the amount of work and the dedication that a team has put into a great product. I have paid for many of the great softwares that run on my machine because of this knowledge.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Part of it is that responses rarely seem to take into account the reason something was built. Someone building a Python interpreter in JS to learn about languages and interpreters often gets the same response that Facebook would get it they released the same code as an open source library, even though in the first case a Dev isn't saying it's perfect, just that they made something cool and want to show off work they're proud of.

Oftentimes effort alone is commendable, even if it misses the mark, as long as it's not hurting users. We so easily forget that though when judging others' work.

<comment><USER7> > effort alone is commendable

I think this is where things fall apart for me, and I suspect others. I don't see effort, by itself, as commendable.

Projects like these usually have the goal "can I do this too?"[1] The answer is always an obvious "yes", since it's been done before. The effort to learn something is commendable, but the act of learning is rarely "impressive".

> No matter how successful, reliable, or loved a piece of software is, > inevitably other developers will not value the time, effort, and > craftsmanship that went into building it.

Come on now. This can only be true if he himself has never been impressed with anyone else work.

HN is filled with professionals who will be quick to give, usually helpful, critical feedback. I would go as far as to claim "wow cool" feedback doesn't contribute to the discussion, especially if the only purpose of the project was to complete a learning exercise. If others are like me, I'll often read in amazement, maybe try out the code, rather than fill the comment section with congratulations, which would rightfully be down voted.

[1] ~20 projects for getting Python in the browser: [http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/pybrowser/python- bro...](http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/pybrowser/python-browser.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I think you can impress them more when your feat of good programming is also useful to others. "Ive done this trick to make Rust compiler faster", "I've improved a frequently used function in the core libary of C#", "I've made a cross platform gui library that is easy to use and efficient", "I've found a faster way to hash in certain use cases"

Telling people about your feat of programming that was very difficult but was a (probably) non-useful learning exercise probably won't be interesting unless they are a friend or also happening to be wanting to learn about the same thing.

</comment><comment><USER9> My gut feeling is that this is right. Some devs really do seem to have little respect for "code on the ground", and the problem is magnified in places without any DevOps culture / a sense of developer responsibility towards operations (ie, Devs who won't do oncall or refuse to write RCAs).

I think it stems from a culture where people want strive to adopt the most "elite" way of doing things (ie, running Kubernetes for everything, because Google) because it lets them show they're capable and knowledgeable, and nobody is going to say Google is doing it wrong. The downside to this is that cheaper, faster, and more practical solutions get thrown aside as "hacks" because they don't scale to google level. When really, a lot of places don't need that kind of scale, and having too much complexity can be a risk of it's own. I'm not saying scalability isn't important, it can be critical for some things, but I rarely see devs give the same attention to usability or monitoring in their designs (there are lots of misconceptions that using orchestration solves monitoring, when really it can make it harder if you don't plan for it up front).

So I say let google and co worry about impressing people, and just spend your time on making things that solve problems. And maybe, in OPs case, (this may be unpopular) you don't have to share everything you write, especially if it's not something that solves a problem for other people. Put it on your github and resume, but if it's not solving real problems, it's just for your learning.

</comment><comment><USER10> I would interpret it as a push back to using Javascript for everything and anything, unless it's clearly marked as this is for fun and a learning experience. People will easily jump in and say but why Javascript? and the answer is almost always that's the only language I know how to use. Using one language for everything doens't impress good engineers (or developers). Not my opinion, but that's what I felt in the comments of the linked post.

</comment><comment><USER11> It's not really developers who are hard to impress - it's just anonymous developers on internet forums

<comment><USER12> If you want to impress developers wouldn't you simply get an FTP account, mount it locally with curlftpfs, and then use SVN or CVS on the mounted filesystem?

<comment><USER13> What even?

<comment><USER14> It is making fun of the one of the top comment that was on the Show HN Dropbox.

Here we go: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8863)

Ninja'd, should have refreshed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Does any know of a community of practitioners in a field or discipline who are by and large usually impressed by output of the members of that field on a regular basis.

Not rhetorical, asking for myself. I guess, I want to know how much more toxic are we as a community (to the degree you can talk about all folks who read or might read HN as a single monolithic community).

I mean, I know a few artists, they are absolutely savage when it comes to the work of others. Is this a dev problem or human one?

<comment><USER16> Indie game art seems to be pretty good. There are some annoying comments, but overall I see lots and lots of positive comments and support.

Even on Twitter, see #screenshotsaturday responses.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I believe the number of good software engineers numbers in the thousands. This is completely anecdotal, and I have no studies to back up this claim. The longer I've been in industry, the more I've come to believe that the number of _good_ software engineers seems to remain fairly constant over time. I also contend that more than fifty percent of developers are bad, and shouldn't be programming.

Given those margins, finding someone who actually is impressive is difficult. Most projects are not that interesting, are rehashes of something that's already been done, or are just poorly designed and executed.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm not sure about that. Instances of code that I know impressed lot of developers: several sections of the original Doom code, at least one entry in Gamasutra's old article "Dirty Coding Tricks", their first time groking functional programming (a functional declaration of quicksort, for instance).

Then again, I'm not really impressed by "X in Javascript" anymore, so I'm definitely biased.

<comment><USER4> The functional declaration of quicksort one is ironic considering it isn't actually quicksort.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I'd postulate it is because we are intimately familiar with how the sausage is made, so we can identify the problems (perceived or otherwise) with ease. Since everyone thinks a little bit differently, even if we do make something impressive, everyone who sees it will think of how they would do it instead. Either that or we think "why the hell did you think this was a good idea?"

<comment><USER20> Yes, this is my theory as well. I wrote a little thing about how it applies to selling products to developers a few years back: [https://jasonlefkowitz.net/2012/04/how-to-sell-products- to-n...](https://jasonlefkowitz.net/2012/04/how-to-sell-products-to-nerds/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> This seems to extend into any community where nobody has any skin in the game yet the topic has superficial qualities in which it can be knee-jerk judged (unlike, say, a book).

Some of the most unsettling behavior I've seen online is a thread on Reddit where an indie developer shared their game with /r/gaming. The reactions: "Looks like dogshit", "This really took you two years to build? lol", "Doesn't even work on Android? lol miss me with that garbage."

Like that /r/gaming thread, we on HN do the same thing with the superficial qualities of a project.

"Python in JS? Who the fuck would want this lol. It took you how long to build this dogshit? Yet another web developer who refuses to learn anything beyond JS." Our analysis goes no deeper than whatever was summed up in the Show HN title where the author is lucky if anybody even navigates to the Github repo and looks at the work involved.

I think it comes down to modern entitlement culture where we see the world as our personal buffet. Now combine that with the ease of sharing your opinion with the world.

<comment><USER22> Yeah, and in particular: anonymously. It seems to bring out the absolute worst in people when they can say anything without immediate or visible consequences of their words.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> "Experienced developers make the difficult seem easy. New developers often make the routine look hard."

Well said.

</comment><comment><USER24> You can impress your friends by learning to juggle 3 balls. You won't impress a circus performer who can juggle 5 is working on 7 and spends every workday with people they don't feel like they measure up to.

There are ways to impress developers, but you won't get then to see the magic regular users do. We all work behind the curtain, and nobody online knows you well enough to understand when your accomplishments are personal milestones.

</comment><comment><USER25> Here's a decent example of the attitude described in the post (it was a conversation I was involved in recently):

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18330162](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18330162)

Of course, a random person on the internet thinks s/he can architect systems of unprecedented global scale without knowing any of the context or goals of the systems involved.

</comment><comment><USER26> That entire work of Shakespeare in a jpeg was kinda impressive.

<comment><USER27> Context: [https://twitter.com/David3141593/status/1057042085029822464](https://twitter.com/David3141593/status/1057042085029822464)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> I was expecting a rant about job ad filler. "Join a world-class team of architects, we are changing the world and ushering in the age of Aquarius with our revolutionary CAAS (CRUD-As-A-Service) model, endorsed by Mark Zuckerburg's freshman biology classmate!"

It's actually about people posting personal code projects on HN, and I disagree, personal code projects quite frequently get quite a lot of recognition here.

<comment><USER29> Crud as a service is actually pretty awesome. Been using Airtable and I think it could replace a lot of single purpose business applications

</comment></comment><comment> brian-armstrong Extra context: this article, and the event it references, took place in 2013

</comment><comment><USER30> Sorry, but yes you can. Watch:

"Hey guys, ES6 and Node have their problems, so we ratified a new standard that fixes all their shortcomings and bugs. Download it today and start your new project in a few mins".

Or:

"Hey guys, I know the whole point of keeping source code is for the next guy, but check out how I totally obfuscated, er wrote, this complicated algorithm I'm .5 lines of code"

</comment><comment><USER31> I think maybe it's always hard to impress your peers, regardless of industry. Peers tend to be impressed by practical knowledge they can leverage to increase their own skills, tools that help them speed up work, or successes within their industry that have been achieved.

</comment><comment><USER4> I generally agree that HN commenters tend not to get impressed by things.

That said, I don't agree with this:

 _> The Google search engine brings in $billions each year, and is one of the most important software projects in history, but I guarantee there are developers at Google right now complaining about how crappy the core code base is._

You can appreciate the performance of the Google search engine at scale, while still being annoyed by how crappy the core code base is. (I have zero knowledge of what the codebase is actually like, but I would guess that like most legacy code written in a legacy language without algebraic data types, it's probably a bit of a mess at this point).

<comment><USER32> As an aside it would be great if anyone who actually has seen google search source code can provide a general idea about the code quality. One imagines it should be of thr highest quality being the core google product.

<comment><USER33> I know someone who works at Google, and their initial impression of the code base was that it's the highest quality large codebase (or largest high quality codebase?) they'd ever seen. Apparently all the qualifications and reviews really do help.

<comment><USER34> I saw parts of the codebase while I was there. It definitely has dark corners. But given it's size and the complexity of the problems it's solving it's wasn't that bad.

Of course at any given time while I was there the team was running several different refactor/fix/delete/cleanup projects. It's a continuous and well funded effort.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> > Instead focus on impressing your users _(if your users are developers, I > wish you luck)._

Funnily enough I think everyone's impressed with Jetbrains. I rarely meet devs who don't like their tools. Or Kotlin.

<comment><USER36> The users of an open source project I started often give great feedback and appear to love it.

But a very small minority like it enough to donate to support the development efforts, even though it is saving them significant amounts of money and time.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> It's mostly because HN is one of the most rigorous communities online. And it's worth it, it's the only website where you learn more from the comments than from the article itself.

</comment><comment><USER38> Or maybe rephrase to "if you're looking for praise..." as i think it may be misplaced to expect it in mass unless you have had tons of user testing/feedback and iterations to move it that way. Opinion is just consensus anyway and sometimes having a niche of people that love what you do is all that matters. In this case in particular, python on the web isn't necessary well liked in mass from the beginning so you are starting an uphill climb.

</comment><comment><USER39> I don't think this is necessarily a developer-specific issue. You show something off to the internet-at-large and they probably won't have nice things to say about it.

This isn't necessarily because they're unimpressed though. There's only so many different ways you can say "great job", compared to the potentially infinite ways in which you could find a flaw in someone's work and highlight it in a constructive or unconstructive manner.

</comment><comment><USER16> > There is a time and place for review, but code on the ground deserves > respect.

I think the post mixes the respect / approval / praise a bit. You can at the same time respect that someone produced something that solves what they needed _and_ think that the project is a steaming pile of poop from the technical / design side. Maybe the comments should mention the first part more often. I'll definitely try when criticising some tech in the future.

</comment><comment><USER40> After reading your article I'm reminded of an article I read sometime ago about Lennart Poettering, author of systemd for whom users actually were collecting money to hire a hitman to kill him [1]. I don't think anything can top this level of hate for free software.

[1] [https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/81162.html](https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/81162.html)

<comment><USER41> The mundane truth is that no-one collected any money, or even tried to. Despite the perpetuated claim that "this really happened" it actually didn't. Some fools said some stupid things on an IRC channel.

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417369](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417369)

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> > if your users are developers, I wish you luck.

Lol sounds like my experience working at a SaaS company. It can be hard to get them to pay for your services.

</comment><comment><USER43> > There is a time and place for review, but code on the ground deserves > respect.

This is one of the reasons for which I think that refactoring a code base, in the original sense by Martin Fowler, where a program is changed without modifying its functioning, but only extracting its structure, is a severely underused practice, and one for which there would be a lot of space in the industry.

</comment><comment><USER44> You can't impress those that know more than you. I'm not impressed by half of the showHN that I see, but then I'm equally impressed by the other half. I sent an email a few hours ago to someone that had a showHN because I was impressed by the quality of work, not just in what was done, but code, documentation & organization.

</comment><comment><USER45> I don't believe anything really impresses developers. Developers look at something and think, wow how did they do that followed by I can do that so this can be ignored.

</comment><comment><USER46> People are more likely to speak up when they're unhappy than when they're happy.

If they agree with everything you said, they'll typically upvote in silence.

It has nothing to do with developers.

</comment><comment><USER47> I don't think people expect to be impressed they just want their future pain when working with a given codebase to be minimized.

</comment><comment><USER48> I was impressed by the audacity of the title even without reading the article. That can't be right

</comment><comment><USER49> I hate when people speak on my behalf

</comment><comment><USER50> dang: please add (2013) to the title.

</comment><comment><USER51> This is just a gross generalization

</comment><comment><USER52> Funny.Having been closely working with world class scientists as an engineer, I'm (and the whole team) being impressed every day, to the extent that I feel I'm such an underachiever

</comment><comment><USER53> Their first mistake was posting about JavaScript on this site. This site has an unusually high volume of anti-JavaScript people.

<comment><USER50> But it should be different. One of the most beloved languages, Python 3, implemented in the fastest dynamic language backend. js has an awful design, but an extremely fast implementation. Biggest problem was the missing of any benchmark. it should be at least 2x faster than cpython3.</comment></comment>


Gender Bias: It Is Worse Than You Think - <AUTHOR> https://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2017/03/28/gender-bias-it-is-worse-than-you-think/ <comment><USER2> > _One of my colleagues went on to ascribe the 'horribleness' of many computer > systems in everyday use to the "brusque masculinism" of their creation._

The idea that males must be more "brusque" than females is the same thing as saying that females are "attentive and caring" (in comparison to males). It's just an old stereotype.

I didn't think this article said anything new, or well.

</comment><comment><USER3> I believe gender bias is a huge issue, but I wonder if the riddle was worded differently if the responses would be different:

>Here's an old riddle. If you haven't heard it, give yourself time to answer before reading past this paragraph: a father and daughter are in a horrible car crash that kills the dad. The daughter is rushed to the hospital; just as she's about to go under the knife, the surgeon says, "I can't operate—that girl is my daughter!" Explain…

I'd also be curious to see what the results would be if it was a mother/daughter crash — I suspect that most people would say the father is the surgeon (rather than saying the girl has two moms), but I'd like to see at what rate.

My answer in the original question was two dads, but I'm not entirely sure if I misinterpreted "he's about to go under the knife" originally, or if I'm biased (I also might want to think I misinterpreted it because I don't want to be biased).

The article provides a lot of additional evidence of bias. I just found the first riddle interesting.

<comment><USER4> My parents asked me that riddle after seeing it on (IIRC) "All in the Family" when I was ~10. I failed miserably, disappointing my mother.

<comment><USER5> The whole riddle is set up to be intentionally difficult. The way it primes you with "father" and "son" as parent comment mentions. I think there's some validity to it, but I think it's a clever linguistic trick more than anything.

<comment><USER6> I actually read the parent comment before going to the article and I still had a hard time figuring out the answer. It may be because I was primed with the fact it's a "riddle"; the entire time I was trying to come up with a clever answer rather than thinking the surgeon was the mother. Father+daughter vs father+son didn't have much of an effect, but bias was probably present, nevertheless.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> It took me a minute to get the riddle (if you haven't tried, go read it now), but I don't believe that means I am biased. My first thought was that the "surgeon" was the son's father, and the "father" was just someone who had children. In a literal sense, that could be a valid answer, but the focus of the riddle is whether I considered the surgeon to be the son's mother.

Does the fact that I consider a surgeon to be male when there is no gender specified mean that I am biased? Of course not! I would not bat an eye to learn that there are female surgeons. That is not where the ambiguity comes from. My assumption that a character is male derives from both the fact that I am male, and the fact that the majority of English writing, and indeed, English grammar assume male gender.

When I read "To Kill a Mockingbird", I assumed the main character to be a boy until several pages in, where, to my surprise, the gender was specified to be a girl. Of course it was easier to read a first-person story from the standpoint of my own gender. Did I have a problem that the main character was female? No. That did not matter to me. Did I wish that gender was specified as soon as the character was introduced? Yes. That would have made the writing much easier to comprehend.

 __TL;DR __The fact that gender bias exists in language does not mean it exists in the mind of the reader.

EDIT: To those that are downvoting, would you care to explain your complaint? Just because I disagree with OP's argument does not mean I am not open to discussion.

<comment><USER8> I didn't downvote but two possible reasons would be:

\- IIRC the main character of To Kill a Mockingbird was Atticus Finch, who is male.

\- You make a lot of assertions ("Does [that] mean that I am biased? Of course not!") but don't actually provide any evidence of that, and in fact your post seems to contain some counter evidence.

For example, asserting that you would "not bat an eye to learn that there are female surgeons" suggests that you currently believe there are no female surgeons so hearing otherwise would be news to you, which of course would be hugely biased.

<comment><USER7> > IIRC the main character of To Kill a Mockingbird was Atticus Finch, who is > male.

The story is told from the perspective of his daughter Jean Louise Finch, who ambiguously introduced herself by her nickname "scout".

> would "not bat an eye to learn that there are female surgeons"

I can see where I miswrote "learned". I meant that in the context of reading a story, as in reading that in some particular context (like this riddle) that a surgeon is female.

> hearing otherwise would be news to you, which of course would be hugely > biased.

Of course that is not the case. I am well aware that there are totally competent female surgeons. That is what I mean by saying "I would not bat an eye". The context in which I would be surprised is the context of this riddle: Since I am male, and since English grammar has historically assumed a male descriptor, my first assumption in this riddle is that the surgeon is male. My point is that that assertion does not stem from the word surgeon, and the historically significant gender gap with surgeons. The assertion that the surgeon is male stems from the ambiguity of "surgeon". The riddle does not state, or even directly call into question the gender of the surgeon. In order to answer the riddle, the gender must be assumed to be either male or female. The answer to the riddle is the most likely conclusion, but because of the grammar used, it is not my first conclusion. My first conclusion (that "father" meant someone with children other than the "son"), was in fact not incorrect, but was indeed less likely.

</comment></comment></comment><comment> 08-15 Here's an old riddle. Say "silk" five times in quick succession. Now spell "silk". What does the cow drink?

A surprising majority of people says "milk", when the correct answer is "water". This is obviously because of some sort of bias against water. Any other explanation is absolutely inconceivable.

<comment><USER9> > A father and son are in a horrible car crash that kills the dad. The son is > rushed to the hospital; just as he's about to go under the knife, the > surgeon says, "I can't operate—that boy is my son!" Explain.

Well, so "silk" is priming your mind to think of similar words. Here are possible hypotheses about the doctor riddle:

1) The presence of a father in the story is priming the listener to think about fathers and not mothers.

2) The tone of a riddle implies there is a paradox, which suggests to the listener that the doctor is the father.

3) We are biased to think doctors are men.

And you're saying that the author thinks it's inconceivable that #1 or #2 could be complete explanations? I think she admitted such... she believes that the bias exists and is merely looking for evidence.

I don't think she is saying the study is conclusive though. Taken alone it doesn't prove anything. But there are lots of other studies showing similar effects. You can run the tests on yourself: [https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/](https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/)

I wish you would say a little more about what, specifically you are accusing the author of.

<comment> never-question I didn't see anything resembling an accusation in the parent, just a quick demonstration of the linguistic tricks our minds can play on us and some sarcasm.

What is it about pushing diversity that puts people in a near-constant defensive/attack posture? I understand that adoring surface-level diversity is not a universally accepted stance despite leagues of loudly fervent believers, but it seems unlikely that anyone thinks this posture is actually helpful. Or at least from the outside, it's pretty clear it isn't, maybe when you're in it, it feels right. I wish I got it.

<comment><USER10> > What is it about _pushing_ diversity that puts people in a near-constant > defensive/attack posture? (emphasis mine)

I think your answer is embedded in your question. It is human nature to respond with hostility to things being "pushed" on us. Are you really that surprised? You would do the very same thing, if I pushed what I thought was right on you. I would at least understand where the hostility came from.

Before I go on, let me first say that I'm a minority (sadly, that fact will carry more weight with you), and you would probably ruffle a lot of feathers trying to "push" me into your workplace. And I would not want to be there. Do you understand how patronizing it is to shove people aside at the grown ups table and bring a high chair for us to sit at?? I'm sick of being fetishized.

Look, sometimes change needs to happen. But your shock that there would be any pushback indicates that you can't even conceive of why, because, in your mind, you are so righteous that nobody could be justified in disagreeing with you. That's a really pigheaded attitude. When you must make changes, it's helpful to at least understand why people would push back, even if you think you're 100% correct.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> What is the likelihood that even a minute's consideration is given that this represents some sort of natural thought pattern that we can just learn to ignore, like other forms of tribalism?

My guess would be no chance at all. There's a real dedication to the idea that this sort of thing is all socially constructed despite literal decades of no progress at all in any way you would expect if such an idea were true.

</comment><comment><USER12> > _But why only choose to study all-white groups and groups of two whites and > one black? What about the other two possibilities: all black and two blacks > and one white? Did this not even occur to the researchers? I could imagine > that all-black do the best, or that two black and one white do the worst. > Who knows. The sin here seems to be not even considering all the four > combinations._

The author fails to consider the possibility that there were not enough black students to do a study of this format. The university where the study was done is (currently) roughly 5% black and 44% white [1]. Given this breakdown, it is likely that the dearth of black students resulted in the study's design.

1: [https://oiir.illinois.edu/about/demographics](https://oiir.illinois.edu/about/demographics)

<comment><USER13> That doesn't make the study any less flawed. I'm questioning whether we should even accept this study if there wasn't a big enough pool of black people to actually run the experiment properly.

Isn't anyone at least a bit curious how an all black team would have performed? If the all black team performs as badly as the all white team, it would only bolster the argument that diversity is important. Which is a good result, because you've made a more convincing study.

But what if the all black team performs the best? It would cause you to look at the study completely different, wouldn't it? Maybe for cultural reasons, black people are better at these kinds of puzzles.

We'll never know because it seems like they have already decided this study in its current form is enough to conclude that "diversity=good".

<comment><USER12> I'm not saying that one can't imagine a better study. I'm saying that the notion that the researchers committed a "sin" and that it did "not even occur to the researchers" to use a different design is unsupported.

The author has no idea what was or was not considered by the researchers, but she is happy to impugn their motives.

Given the choice between (1) run the study they ran, and have a large enough sample to get a statistically significant result and (2) don't run a study at all, which would you have preferred? With a population that is 5% black, it is likely that this is the practical choice the researchers faced.

Note that (1) doesn't mean we get all the answers to everything we might wonder about, but it would give an answer that could help direct future research. That in and of itself is a useful step to take, IMO.

<comment><USER13> The obvious answer is (2) don't run a study at all (assuming the methodology is truly flawed). Or (3) run the study but take the results with a grain of salt and don't draw broad conclusions from it. And (4) we can comment on hacker news about how "wouldn't it be nice if they tested this or that because that would have convinced me, personally."

I think that we're kind of saying the same thing. It's an thought-provoking study and I agree that it is a useful step. But I also agree that further research is required to really draw a conclusion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> _" When [Tracy] Chou discovered a significant flaw in [her] company's code and pointed it out, her engineering team dismissed her concerns, saying that they had been using the code for long enough that any problems would have been discovered. Chou persisted, saying she could demonstrate the conditions under which the bug was triggered. Finally, a male co-worker saw that she was right and raised the alarm, whereupon people in the office began to listen. Chou told her team that she knew how to fix the flaw; skeptical, they told her to have two other engineers review the changes and sign off on them, an unusual precaution."_

This would happen to any junior dev. As the article doesn't actually tell if Tracy was a junior or senior dev, this doesn't demonstrate any kind of gender bias by itself.

<comment><USER13> Or it's as simple as "1 person bringing up a subtle problem doesn't cause people to become alarmed in this particular situation, but if more people are saying it's a problem, then others become more convinced". It's possible that age/race/gender have absolutely nothing to do with it. But those with an ax to grind against "the patriarchy" will look at this situation only through that lens. You might say she's biased into assuming that everything that happens to her is because of sexism.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Here is the modern version of the riddle: if you are to analyze your e-mail responses (e.g., tone, wording), do you notice any gender bias?

I was intrigued with the story[0] where the colleagues of opposite gender swapped their names when signing their client e-mails, and the responses they received were heavily gender biased. While this may be anecdotal, I would not be surprised if this is more prevalent than (hopefully) appreciated.

[0] [https://twitter.com/i/moments/839950218099576832](https://twitter.com/i/moments/839950218099576832)

<comment><USER13> I think the TLDR of the original article can be summed by "there is bias even in the interpretation of bias-measuring studies".

The fact that people read this story and conclude "well the only variable at play here is gender, therefore: sexism".

1\. This is anecdote. One event. 2\. The story-teller is introducing his own bias. 3\. The reader has certain preconceptions about gender and bias.

While this is an interesting anecdote, a skeptic should take this whole situation with a grain of salt.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> "The sky is falling. The sky is falling."

When are we ever going to hear about how to solve this instead of more investigating evidence into its existence?

Oh, wait. We aren't. People don't actually want to talk about solutions.

<comment><USER17> Not sure if you did this on purpose, but I really appreciated that you didnt mention the problem's name in your comment. You could copy paste this exact comment into any number of threads and be spot on. Climate change, political division, etc.

Personally I think it is like any other bias, or maybe a combination. People are doing it subconsciously, which means it is going to be hard to get them to stop.

Confirmation bias kicks in when we see a person of $group acting in a way that confirms our existing beliefs. Also when a person who feels that discrimination is rampant feels they have been discriminated against. Fundamental attribution error might explain why some people feel like they are the victims of intentional malice, rather than a mistake. Self serving bias might explain why members of $group are unwilling to admit that they discriminate against $group2. Or why we dont hear about how $group2 is a minority in other professions. Framing might explain why a story about one person, which might be missing details(such as seniority); is used to demonstrate the problem.

Unfortunately this would mean the solution is for everyone to behave rationally...

<comment><USER16> No, not really doing that particular thing on purpose.

Just trying to tread lightly because I seem to be the highest ranked woman on HN and (among other things) I blog about gender issues and how to address it more effectively. So, what I really want to bitch about is a lack of attention for my writing while people focus on this shit, as usual. But I also get tired of the fact that anything I say about gender issues tends to get vastly more attention than anything else I do on HN in a manner that simultaneously belittles me and pigeonholes me.

Meanwhile, if I ask a question like this -- which is me, a woman, trying to develop a business idea and stop being a total fucking loser in life -- crickets chirp and no one replies at all because, no, no one wants to actually do anything constructive at all about such problems:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14000346](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14000346)

(Throws hands up in air. Grumpily stomps off.)

<comment><USER17> Sorry. If it makes you feel any better, I have been to your blog more than a few times. But people like their buttons pushed :(

<comment><USER16> Eh, that's true, but it's also a little more complicated than that.

But, thank you.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I really wonder how this result translates to non-native speakers, especially with native tongues that have gendered nouns (but then there's often the male form as the default).

So am I more likely to assume the surgeon as male because there is no single word for "female surgeon" but in my native language it would be or doesn't that matter for the experiment?

</comment><comment><USER19> > The importance of diversity is beyond reasonable doubt, isn't it?

Why?

<comment><USER20> It could give a greater range of insight and experience to a problem.

Also, it is easy to optimise for diversity, and fiendishly difficult to optimise for other more subtle aspects of human behaviour.

<comment><USER21> > it is easy to optimise for diversity

only in the most crude, ham-fisted way though.

it's extremely hard to find people who actually break the groupthink. it's extremely hard to even identify your own groupthink blind spots, let alone cover them with people with genuinely different perspectives. the crude diversity solution seems highly likely to select for people with superficial differences but core similarities.

<comment><USER20> Yes it is extremely hard, which may make the ham-fisted way more practical.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Prediction from the past: America will disintegrate in June 2010 - <AUTHOR> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Panarin#Prediction_of_the_USA.27s_collapse_in_2010

<comment><USER2> It really tickles me that he not only had the moxy to propose such a hypothesis, but attach an exact month to it.

</comment><comment><USER3> Hey, the month's not over!</comment>