A Solution for Loneliness: Get out and volunteer, research suggests - <AUTHOR> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-solution-for-loneliness/ <comment><USER2> I've volunteered with a local ambulance corps for the past 2-3 years. I've driven and more recently became an EMT. It's worthwhile. We sign for at least 4 shifts a month. There is a fair amount of training and retraining to keep the cert active. Some shifts are distressing and it is a bit hard to compartmentalize...

I am glad to have it though. I have contact with a whole different world than my NYC tech job and have a different relationship to my city than I would otherwise. The EMTs (and trainees) are younger, different racial and socio- economic backgrounds. Not uncommon for me to be on a shift with a crew chief who is 20 years younger and different race and or gender. And it be a person I trust and respect.

As for the work itself - it can be harrowing and you second guess almost everything and try to figure it out better. While trying to help the patient(s) you have to manage radio contact while filling out a chart which you are constantly reminded would be the basis for legal discovery if needed. Our Corps does about 6k calls a year out of one location with 3 ambulances. And you get all the variety you expect in a city.

I question it sometimes. This volunteering eats into my work life and family life. Occasionally dream about it or think about it. To the point of the post - it does connect me to community in a different and meaningful way. There are other ways to achieve the same thing probably - just adding my experience.

<comment><USER3> Similar but far less impact; I did the Community Emergency Response Training (CERT). It was a great experience. I met tons of locals, learned important skills, and learned a lot about myself and leadership. It was a handful of all day Saturday classes and I cant recommend it enough. It gave me a bit of an itch to get EMT certified, so your account was interesting to read.

My dad has been a volunteer sherif for decades (because of his background he does a lot of the local hostage negotiation) and I know how much he got out of that.

<comment><USER2> I started with CERT (actually a few weeks before Hurricane Sandy) and as part of that got an EMR cert. That led me to the Volunteer Ambulance Corps I am at now. See if your CERT org has the EMR - good luck!

<comment><USER3> EMR sounds awesome, thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> My solution for loneliness - online DnD.

I live in a place where it's very hard to find like-minded people in real life. That plus health issues and social anxiety resulted in me being quite alone for awhile. I'm very introverted so I wasn't unhappy, but still thought that it would be nice to have a group of good buddies to hang out with.

Then I have learned that you can play DnD over discord/roll20, and my god this is so great! A lot of incredibly smart and amazing people, welcoming and friendly community, so much fun! I highly recommend it to everyone!

<comment><USER5> As someone who played pen and paper DnD as a kid, and a lot of computer (baldurs gate, fallout, nwn and many others), I'm curious about this.

Do you have any resources to get started?

<comment><USER4> Most games are played via discord voice chat, often roll20 is used for rolling dice, managing character sheets, and moving tokens over the map. Create discord/roll20 accounts, come up with a character, make a character sheet.

You can find people to play with on /r/lfg subreddit. If you're not ready to commit to a long-term campaign, I recommend looking for one-shots(one-time games lasting 3-5 hours). Try things out, play a couple of games, get to know a few people.

Also, there are a lot of discord servers where people hang out and play together:

[https://disboard.org/search?keyword=dnd&sort=-member_count](https://disboard.org/search?keyword=dnd&sort=-member_count)

They often have channels where they announce games, free for anyone to join. My favorite server is:

[https://discord.gg/vPFH5sQ](https://discord.gg/vPFH5sQ)

There are a lot of games in there, and people are very friendly and willing to help. Just come over, ask questions. Don't be afraid to just join one of the games and start playing - nobody expects you to know all the rules when you get started, DM and other players will help you out, you will learn as you go.

Quality of games can sometimes be uneven(depending on DM/player skills). I was lucky that my first few games turned out to be amazing, but occassionaly it can get a bit slow/boring. If that happens - don't give up, just give it another shot, it's worth it. Gradually you'll meet and get to know people you like playing with.

Quick tutorial on playing games on that server:

[https://youtube.com/watch?v=euClihK7GhI](https://youtube.com/watch?v=euClihK7GhI)

You can also find a group to start a campaign with right away. Post on /r/lfg and say you're looking for a DM and players, or find a post made by a DM and apply as a player. The biggest challenge here is scheduling - people live in different timezones, and sometimes groups fall apart because people have trouble making it on time. Your group needs to decide on a specific time you can play every week, and stick to it. Some people have trouble with this, but it's easier than it seems, if the first time doesn't work out - just try again. I was lucky to find 3 amazing groups with awesome players right away.

<comment><USER5> I will certainly give it a shot on weekend, thanks for the detailed pointers!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Religion has the benefit of being a massive (1B+ for the major ones), well established institution for bringing people together, the recurring nature of meet-ups for church and / or prayer help to establish routine. What I've found is that for those who are not religious, the hardest part about building a social structure from scratch is establishing some routine.

I moved from Boston to Portland a few years ago and didn't know anyone. I tried everything from Meetups (solid if you're looking for friends of the opposite sex and people your age -- especially if you're a millennial / gen X), volunteering (great for meeting a wide variety of people but can be difficult to come across the same people over and over unless you share a common bond, like work) and sports (best for last minute get together, but sometimes to schedule can be too rigid if you don't dedicate yourself).

They all have their benefits, and you'll never enjoy every type of person you meet in a certain community. The key above all is getting together with people you like on a semi-regular basis. Even twice a month on a long enough timescale is enough to establish a strong tie.

<comment><USER7> A fun thing to try is improv comedy. It exists in practically every large metropolis and all you need is the ability to be brave and potentially embarrass yourself. Everyone is trying something new and risky, and it doesn't matter if you don't think you know how to act.

It was a great community for me, and you see the same people every week for years.

<comment><USER8> Thanks for that suggestion. I've been kind of wanting to try this for a while and really need to see what groups are available to me, locally.

<comment><USER7> My advice is to not overthink it - just sign up for a class and take the plunge. It's a lot of fun.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> In France some test is going on to turn long term joblesness into proactive social life. They made a dummy company (one per city) that will hire everyone and pay them up to 21k euros per year to do things (what kind I don't know, probably small services and tasks). TV News was saying that it had suprisingly large success so far.

<comment><USER10> It's interesting to think about this in terms of UBI (universal basic income). This test is the opposite in some ways since it's providing the utility as the motivation rather than the income directly. The premise of UBI is that the income is provided such that the individuals would aim to benefit society on their own terms and find utility that way.

<comment><USER9> I am of the kind to fit UBI well. Give me a hangar and a bit of money to pay food and some tools and I'd fix the city. I'm sure some wouldn't use money for interesting things. The zero joblesness project is indeed an interesting approach.

<comment><USER10> As an HN user, you would make more money with your current skill set in the current job market. With that in mind, your net value to society through said job would be higher than the value you would provide fixing the city with that UBI money. Before going to extreme UBI scenarios, it would be interesting to have private enterprises tackle projects that effect the public with public funds that are earmarked to go directly to actual individuals at those enterprises (versus retaining profit) or individuals in that locale.

<comment><USER11> I don't know, he could also work in ad tech and have a net negative impact on society. In that case just paying him to do nothing would be better. :)

<comment><USER9> That's mostly my concern, I tried finding IT related jobs for really useful things (anticrime, education) but failed. Most interviews I ended up going to were of basic recruiter kind and no social value IMO.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> I'm really surprised by how negative the comments are on this one. I mentor a young man once a week and it has been a huge positive influence on me and my mental health. It really helps me be more "others centered".

<comment><USER13> It's a sign of how people are on the Internet. I did more than 1000 hours of volunteering in high school and it's made me who I am today. Now I run a startup that uses AI to automatically create real-world social events between friends: research shows the best solution to loneliness is seeing people in person more often and volunteering is certainly one of the best ways.

<comment><USER14> Sounds interesting, name?

<comment><USER15> [https://www.sphere.com.ai/](https://www.sphere.com.ai/) from his profile.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Lots of stories here, here is mine: I started volunteering at my local non- profit bar/pub/coffeeshop 6 months ago (runned by volunteers only, there is no employee). It has done wonder to my social life: I spent the previous 3 years in this particular city without making any friend there outside of work. Since I started, I made a lot of acquaintances, a few of them I might consider as friends later down the line.

This place is really great in that you don't need a specific time investment: just sign up for a 3 hours shift when you feel like it. If you really like it, you can invest yourself more. Or just go there whenever you feel like it to talk to friendly people, without to have to find friends in advance (I wouldn't go in most pubs alone: most are designed so that you come with your friends and stay with them without talking to other group of people).

This has been my particular story, but I'd advise anyone with too much free time and not enough people to spend it with to volunteer to something, anything, that match with your values. It really is life-changing.

Just don't go too deep too fast: you can definitely burn out with volunteer work as well. That's one thing several persons at my non-profit specifically warned me against, in non-equivocal words, as it happened to others before.

<comment><USER17> > my local non-profit bar/pub/coffeeshop

I guess step 1 is founding a local, non-profit bar/pub/coffeeshop then :-)

<comment><USER16> I'm not a native English speaker, I don't know the proper translation (we just say a "bar" in French, even though coffee is as important as alcohol).

But as I noted, any non-profit that align with your values is good.

<comment><USER17> I'm not either but I think your phrasing made sense, because bars look different in different parts of the world, and so does coffee shops, so it makes sense to underline that it's all of the above.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> It's frustrating in SF where it seems like the only night time social activities are drinking-related and very few businesses outside of bars/clubs are open past 8pm or so.

One thing I love about going to Asia is the vibrant night time activities that of course includes bars but also night markets and late shopping that is as much for families as it is for bar goers.

<comment><USER19> Several years ago in San Francisco I started volunteering at a nonprofit theater, doing ticket checkin, will call, ushering, and things like that. Since then it's grown into a much larger part of my life, and I travel all over the West Coast stage managing for cabarets, circuses, magic shows, and stuff. It's still all volunteer, mostly low budget local artists who can't afford to hire high-end professionals. But it's been amazing, completely revolutionized life in San Francisco for me. Frankly it's the main reason I haven't left the city, as I'm kind of burned out on all the tech stuff here. But my circus friends are awesome. If you or anyone else wants to see an entirely different side of San Francisco and make some new friends in the arts community, ping me. Contact info is in my profile.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Some of the loneliest people are the elderly who have lost their mobility and cannot get around easily. This often happens in your 80s.

<comment><USER21> I volunteered for home hospice, and met with a 94-year old man for a year. As he would say, "my body is shot, but my mind is sharp" \-- and was it ever.

What an amazing story he has -- decorated WW2 veteran (he had so many stories to tell about the war), worked in construction for 40+ years, now has an extended family (children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren) that is 100+ strong.

At some point, hospice said that he was doing better so they were cancelling their support. I still wanting to see him so I kept going. He wasn't expected that though, and the next week when I showed up he was so appreciative he was in tears.

You never know how your presence can affect someone.

<comment><USER10> Unfortunately my hospice volunteering sent me further into depression, perhaps even an existential crisis. I knew the impact of hospice and that was enough reason to put myself in the situation where maybe I could help.

The patient I was working with had a stroke. He was paralyzed, completely bedridden, and unable to speak. Despite his ailments, he was able to hear & see properly and thus able to understand me. I would read him books and magazines. Deep down I knew he understood & enjoyed it but the lack of feedback of any kind was frustrating despite knowing his situation was far worse.

After months of volunteering, the following day I go in and his bed is empty. As I left, my soul felt emptier than that bed. Is this what my future could entail? Those types of thoughts ate away at me. It was bad enough for me to consider them but far worse to view my own thoughts void of morality and so focused on my self.

I wish I could tell myself I'm in a better position today. For today at least, I'll try.

<comment><USER22> Your are not alone in your experience. This causes people working in nursing homes to quit: the death is difficult to deal with, especially if you are working in a capacity to get to know folks.

It is difficult knowing folks as they die. Really difficult, and your aftereffects are quite normal.

If it keeps eating away at you, there is help available - from people trained to help people through this exact situation. Please consider getting help if it seems too much at any time.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Volunteering strikes me as one of those "if it were a pill, everyone would be using it". In the same way that exercise is basically all benefits once you get past the risk of injury.

From a community's point of view, volunteers directly benefit the community by planting trees or running soup kitchens. They also strengthen the social network of the community. Finally they improve the health outcomes of the volunteer, reducing the healthcare burden on the community! The only downside I can think of is the potential loss of legitimate work for the unemployed.

My old role in science outreach involved a lot of help from local Rotary Clubs. They were mostly older people. They were enthusiastic, effective, happy, and full of the kind of amazing stories and wisdom you can only get from living a long and interesting life. I came out of that job convinced that volunteering is effective.

<comment><USER24> The only thing with volunteering is most organizations really want someone dedicated who will show up regularly, not just once every other month (training those people is more trouble than it's worth). My grandma volunteers a lot, and this is a frequent complaint of hers.

I volunteered with something my workplace set up once. It was ok, but they never even booked a second session. We were tutoring underprivileged kids, so it's a little depressing knowing we're just someone else who didn't really support them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> I think that volunteering can help with a lot more than just loneliness, including bridging gaps between different ideologies. I spent some time working for an urban tree planting group in my city. As you would expect a lot of the folks involved were green thumb forest ranger types, but a lot of them were not. A couple of the older Sierra club guys openly discussed issues with the modern global economy and its impact on the environment, stuff that might get you banned from Twitter these days. The machine shop guys who repaired our tree stakes were pretty "red state" but they liked those Sierra club old guys, and they also liked trees. I also remember talking to a young energy industry employee who knew a lot about green energy initiatives (and why they were taking so long to ramp up), and of course dyed in the wool vegans and forest ranger folks. But the fact that everyone was giving up their Saturdays together for a common goal gave everyone a little extra liberty to express their opinions and experiences, and of course the civility of face to face conversation helps bridge lots of gaps too.

</comment><comment><USER26> I know someone who has considered looking to volunteerism to combat loneliness. In all the places they've looked, what has put them off of it in every case is the up-front commitment required - a certain set of hours in a day and days in a week, for a minimum number of weeks. This is understandable - volunteer-driven efforts need reliable people just like anything else does - but it makes it hard to dip your toe in.

<comment><USER27> > volunteer-driven efforts need reliable people just like anything else does

Amen to that! One of the greatest challenges facing volunteer organisations these days is the supreme difficulty of getting people (especially millenials) to commit to regular and extended involvement. I'm in the national leadership of my organisation, and I hear the same stories from virtually all our groups, as well as from other organisations.

Of course, there needs to be space for people to just try themselves out at first (we certainly have that). But at some point, you've got to be willing to commit...

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> Folks can say what they want about religion, but I have a feeling that church plays a larger role in maintaining a healthy society than it is given credit in some circles.

<comment><USER29> Any communty really. Sport, book or chess clubs too. Theater lessons, shared houses, gay bars, anything where you can recreate a sense of being part of a group and not just being among people. The quality of the community matters though, some are human, some are mechanical. Leaders matter of lot for creating the right mix.

And work is less and less a good place for that, because of policies, specialisation, compartimenting, but also because of lack of meaning .

Meaning is a very important component for a group, and religions sell plenty of it, which make them strong people binders.

A lot of other factors like common values, language, symbolism and stories reinforce this effect, but you can find that elsewhere, although it is very natural for spiritual groups to include all of it.

<comment><USER30> I'm not sure that just any community would be a substitute for church. Most churches are not groups in the sense that you're describing above. Yes, most congregations share a common theology, but the people in the group are often very different personalities, ages, backgrounds. Even super conservative less diverse congregations I know preach unity of the international church, go on mission trips, etc.

The problem with modern substitutes seems to be that they are extremely narrow and probably very temporal (Keto diet fanatics, cross-fit buffs, even gay bars seem to be past their glory days). Much of the unity of the church body comes from a connection to ancestors and a sense that one is, cultural differences aside, a part of the same thing.

<comment><USER31> For one thing, the social role of a Church seems overstated in my experience, though that might depend on denomination. After sitting through the sermon and that business was done, what followed was merely lunch / dinner with extended family. We never mingled much with others.

Religious families are big on family and I this day and age, they're smaller than ever. Gone are the days, in my case, of communing for a large family dinner almost every week. I barely even see my parents.

All of which to say I think our social needs were met in large part by family, and Church was a convenient vehicle to bring it together. There's no substitute for family. However, between a plethora of possible social obligations given our leisure time, I think loneliness can be abated.

<comment><USER32> I think it depends a lot on the individual congregation. Our previous church was terrible socially: everyone stuck to their own in-groups (which often overlapped with extended family), and there was little mingling outside of Sunday morning. Our current church, however, is incredibly vibrant: we've made many close friends there, and the church community goes out of its way for each other (such as doing extensive landscaping last week for two members fighting cancer). Both of these churches are effectively from the same denomination.

<comment><USER31> Sure. I haven't hopped and skipped too many but that's been my experience with Catholic churches everywhere, a family affair. Mind you, French and Italian families can be fucking massive which kind of renders the mingling redundant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Volunteering is what got me into this business in the first place. As a youth that really didn't know where I was going, I volunteered at a community garden to stay busy, and the person running it was a software engineer. Volunteering is great if even just to expose one to new points of view, as it attracts all types.

</comment><comment><USER34> I do volunteer, and it certainly puts me in contact with others, mostly people I would not know otherwise. But I suspect that it is possible to be around other people a fair bit and remain lonely.

</comment><comment><USER35> If this resonates with anyone, than might I suggest you have a look at volunteering at a CodeClub or a Coder Dojo. Your skills would be greatly appreciated in our efforts to introduce more children into coding.

[https://coderdojo.com/volunteer](https://coderdojo.com/volunteer)

[https://codeclub.org/en/volunteer](https://codeclub.org/en/volunteer)

(Disclosure - I work for the Raspberry Pi Foundation)

</comment><comment><USER36> > Another strategy is to volunteer. In a recent survey of over 10,000 people > in the UK, two-thirds reported that volunteering helped them feel less > isolated.

I am not digging further. Self-reported.

My experience: I did a sting in volunteering, in a shelter (I worked the day shift).

First question asked when I applied: "What are you doing here ?".

Second question, from the social worker running the shelter: "What do you think my role is ?".

It caught me off guard. I thought about it for a while and then said: "You manage the volunteers as much as the people in need of the shelter ?"

"And it makes up most of your time and takes most of your energy.", I added when I quit, three months later.

I believe the volunteers are good people but their objectives aren't aligned with the people who need the shelter. Good things there's a middle ground where each can meet and fulfill their needs though.

<comment><USER37> > I am not digging further. Self-reported.

You suggest those people actually felt more isolated despite feeling that they didn't?

<comment><USER36> Not while volunteering (though some are aware of it).

But I believe they aren't building long lasting relationships that will outlive their time in volunteering and form a good social structure to rely on later on.

As soon as they are out of volunteering, most won't see other volunteers anymore.

Unless they actively worked to nurture that relationship outside of the volunteering environment, with unrelated activities.

For example, a friend of mine is hardcore into board games. Sure, he has a good time playing at the club. But seeing people of the club outside of the club, for different activities (supper, helping with moving furniture, sharing a conversation, going to a movie or concert, etc.) is how he's building longer lasting relationships.

<comment><USER38> My thoughts exactly.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER39> My time in the Peace Corps had a profound influence on my social skills/life. While I would not have said I was necessarily lonely, I was certainly rather anti-social and had a lot of trouble expressing myself to people.

Aside from the people I met and relationships I made with other volunteers during my service, I learned through necessity how to be a much more outgoing and social person. I imagine this had a lot to do with where I served (culturally, people were much more community oriented than here in the U.S.) but even the first few months spending time training with the other volunteers in country was hugely influential.

Peace Corps is pretty unique compared to more typical volunteer opportunities, but I suspect one could get a similar effect from _sustained_ volunteering with a particular org/group.

</comment><comment><USER40> No way! I totally vehemently disagree. Joining a sports team is ultimately a better solution. I have done both and here's a list why joining a sports team is better.

1\. You'll experience pain and success as a team that strengthens the relationship with everyone

2\. Politics may occur (eg:who gets benched and who gets the play when it counts the most). This will be a test of character and integrity which is vital for any future meaningful relationship. These are the types of relationships that you keep/survive when you stop playing the sport or when you've moved on to another team.

3\. You'll workout and get some exercise. It's good for your health (duh)

4\. You're most likely to be in a team where everyone is committed to seeing each other on a regular schedule until the season ends. Unlike volunteering, you may never see a person again after you have met them.

5\. After a hard practice/game, you'll most likely go out for food/drinks. It'll be an opportunity for people to express themselves outside of the game.

6\. You'll eventually find out who lives where and figure out a way to carpool to practice/games and back home. I have developed very meaningful relationships while carpooling. Conversations get deeper and more honest when you're have a 1-to-1 conversation.

 _Updated - fixed spelling /grammar_

<comment><USER41> The article isn't called "Volunteering: Literally The Only Solution to Loneliness". It's _a_ solution to loneliness, and one that happens to have positive externalities that accompany it. You can think that sports are a good way to combat loneliness without vehemently disagreeing that volunteering is a solution as well.

<comment><USER42> yup, burnt1ce's argument is both puzzling and overstated, even as i appreciate their zeal for sports.

loneliness has many antidotes, not just having/making friends. just interacting with other people can stem loneliness.

i both volunteer and play sports (basketball) and while some benefits overlap, i do each for principally different benefits.

basketball provides both regular exercise (that i like and do willingly) and an outlet to be competitive (and even aggressive).

volunteering provides an opportunity to learn something new and give to others.

that both reduce loneliness is icing on the cake.

<comment><USER40> Which argument do you think is most puzzling and overstated? I'm just trying to understand this from your point of view.

<comment><USER43> Your first line is completely unwarranted.

Sports was better for you, at least for the sports you chose and the volunteering opportunities you chose. That's fine.

To apply your anecdata to the rest of the world and shout the following is what's troubling.

> No way! I totally vehemently disagree.

<comment><USER40> Maybe my choice of words were strong but I do have strong opinions supported with arguments and many years of experience

<comment><USER43> Your experience is that volunteering doesn't help with loneliness? That's all the article says, ultimately.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER44> I've found that in the Bay Area, there are so many people who aren't allowed to work that it can be very, very hard to volunteer - the supply of volunteers exceeds demand.

<comment><USER45> Sounds like a startup opportunity!

</comment></comment><comment><USER46> TBH, I have always been heavily involved in organized sports. I have friends ask all the time how they can meet more people, etc. I always refer them to a recreational sand volleyball league or something like that. Never thought about volunteering as an option until now. Super cool!

</comment><comment><USER47> The article seems to talk about lack of socialization, which is distinct from loneliness.

A person can go to work every day, have a circle of colleagues, go to regular clubs, have a family, and still feel lonely if they don't feel a meaningful connection with others.

</comment><comment><USER48> Extroverts just don't understand introverts, and they think they can "fix" us.

<comment><USER49> I'm an introvert too, and I know many people who are as well. The need for human interaction, love, and belonging still exist.

<comment><USER50> I don't think that's what the GP meant. More like, volunteering is not the _cure_ for introverts' loneliness.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> How was technology touted as a solution to this, and how has it performed?

The internet has allowed international social structures to exist. Hobbyist groups to political factions span seas thanks to global telecommunications. Some seemingly resemble each other. Yet depersonalized, anonymized social groupings seem to also cause isolation. So has tech been generally good or bad for loneliness?

</comment><comment><USER52> If you are seriously feeling lonely another approach might be therapy. There are many things that can manifest as a collection of feelings that might be descried as "loneliness" and a therapist can help you get to the bottom of it. It's worked wonders for many people I have known since high school.

I know that I subjectively feel lonely despite being objectively not alone. Your situation might be similar. Maybe your loneliness can be fixed by volunteering. Maybe it can be fixed by spending a session or to each week with someone who has devoted a significant portion of their time to helping people with problems like yours. They might even suggest volunteering if it will work for you, or they might refer you to a psychologist who can help you if they think that will benefit you the most.

I'm not disagreeing with the article, it's probably correct that being in close proximity to people makes some people feel less lonely, but if you try this and it doesn't help don't think there isn't a solution.

<comment><USER53> Definitely. Depending on how serious one's issues are, volunteering could be a shortcut remedy for loneliness and the need for therapy could be reduced. But if doesn't work then therapy could help with underlying issues (my therapist suggested volunteering to me).

</comment></comment><comment><USER54> I have been wondering for the past few days how quintessential contact with other humans is to lead a healthy life. Answers to my questions often point to having more human contact. However, I am still having trouble finding a lower and upper bound on this. I wish someday I could find a solution to this.

</comment><comment><USER55> I was a boy scout for several years growing up and we did lots of community service. Even though the troop was half-full of miscreants, everyone was happy to participate because we enjoyed our time together.

</comment><comment><USER56> Looking for somewhere to volunteer in the Bay Area?

The Computer History Museum The Exploratorium The Museum of Art and Digital Entertainment The Crucible

And those are just the ones where you can play with fire or old computers!

</comment><comment><USER57> Or just go and download this app [http://foxie.cool](http://foxie.cool) and start connecting with the world around you through activities and 1-1 (in a non dating way)

</comment><comment><USER58> One organization I considered volunteering for had a volunteer form that demanded that I

"defend, indemnify, and hold the Released Parties harmless from and against any and all loss, damages, claims, expenses and attorney's fees that may be suffered by any Released Party resulting directly or indirectly from my volunteer activities, ... except and only to the extent the liability is caused by the gross negligence or willful misconduct of the relevant Released Party."

To hell with that.

On the other hand, a different organization (that I _did_ work with) valued their volunteers enough that they stated that if a volunteer were to be injured while there, they would be covered by the organization's workers' comp insurance!

I'd still like to volunteer for an organization, but only someplace where it's clearly for the organization's benefit as well as my own.

</comment><comment><USER59> In Ontario, volunteering at public institutions (e.g. library, election) is as hard as getting a job, unless you are a felon forced into community service. You can count yourself lucky if you ever get to the interview step.

</comment><comment><USER60> I agree. Also volunteer at stage rallies! We always need volunteers and the community is full of great people.

[http://californiarallyseries.com/](http://californiarallyseries.com/)

</comment><comment><USER61> Does it specifically have to be volunteering or can social activities also help? Something like dance classes or playing team sports?

</comment><comment><USER62> There's no good online or mobile app for volunteering.

I figured there'd be a chatbot and an sms system at the very least.

ARGHHHH.....

<comment><USER63> VolunteerMatch ([https://www.volunteermatch.org/](https://www.volunteermatch.org/)) has worked well for me in the past.

</comment></comment><comment><USER64> The important question is how does one find opportunity to volunteer? Google it?

<comment><USER65> Honestly if you work for a large company, you might start with your HR department. Corporations have a way for you to donate your time to volunteer as a tax benefit for them since they pay your salary while you volunteer. I regularly get e-mails from my HR department with opportunities based on search criteria I set.

Outside of that what interests you? It might be easier to find an opportunity to help people with something you already have as a hobby.

</comment></comment><comment><USER66> My solution for loneliness: Start a family.

</comment><comment><USER67> Only for people that suffer from it.

</comment><comment><USER68> Army reserves also take volunteers.

</comment><comment><USER69> TL;DR: Are you lonely? Have you tried doing things with people?

<comment><USER70> It also has to be the right other people. When someone says they're lonely, what I hear is a lack of connection to peers and others like them. I'm not sure how generic volunteering would help with that.

<comment><USER71> Not disagreeing but I have a little different experience. I volunteered in a radio program for about 5 years, it was about children's rights (not in the US) and every week we discussed a children rights violation in this country, go there, listen to the children's voices and discuss the issue with them. My co-volunteers were really great people. But somehow I never not felt not- lonely. Even though we were working for the same goal and we were socializing just fine, they didn't feel like the right people.

The most I ever felt non-lonely is back in college struggling through very challenging problem sets with my study group. It definitely felt like a have a "friend group" who shared something very important with me, and I miss those days a lot. Even to this day, when I'm given a hard task at work, I like solving it with my coworkers.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER72> TLDR; The solution for loneliness is doing things with people.

</comment><comment><USER73> Why not eliminate loneliness itself instead of trying to apply a band-aid over it? Are you all afraid of what might happen?

</comment><comment><USER74> Dont work for free. You are taking away a paying job from someone and lining the pockets of the unscrupulous.

<comment><USER43> Yes, those awful over-funded elementary schools and public radio stations and domestic violence shelters are just being greedy.

</comment></comment><comment><USER75> AI based religions will be the next multi-bil institutions in less than a decade

<comment><USER76> AI based teledildonics will be the next multi-tril institutions in less than a decade.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> Well yeah, if you work an unpaid job on top of your paid job, you won't have time to feel lonely. Not sure you'd like to deal with crazy Steve who rants at you while you feed him whatever day old bread you managed to beg from the local grocer, and clean up the food shelter's toilet after some homeless guy trashed it.

As for religion..eh, you have to believe in it for it to work. You can't just make secular church, because there is no secular commandment to love one another, just to not hurt one another. You can get into scenes where there are philosophical ideas enough to ground that kind of community, but you quickly find they are worse nuts than the religious people if not harmful.

<comment><USER78> Wow, if that's your view of volunteerism, I have nothing but honest pity.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What could be the downside of polluting the data collected by companies? - <AUTHOR> Time and again we have seen that companies collecting data of users who have never agreed to their ToS by creating ghost profiles.
I have been trying to prevent data collection on my family by blocking ads, trackers and fingerprinting methods but so far I can tell that it has become a game of cat and mouse. I still see personalized ads and the entire endeavor has become futile.
Now, I am thinking of running a bot that mimics a human browsing but with bogus topics. For instance, open a random Wikipedia and use Google to search 5 to 10 words in the Wikipedia page on Google and open links from the results arbitrarily and clicks ads on those links with a given probability. And do this throughout the day with certain interval.
Or, even go as far training a AI to observe my browsing habit and mimic it. But, before I go that route, can anyone suggest problem problems and improvements on this experiment. I was wondering what downsides such a thing could have? Would it help in anyway? Thank you. <comment><USER2> This isn't my field, but: you might simply see further developments in determining whether users are 'real' or not, resulting in even more data collection and tracking. However this is probably only likely if a significant percentage of the data was known to be fake.

</comment><comment><USER3> I've wondered the same thing ... I also have a small side project to create realistic looking data dumps that can be put in unprotected S3 buckets with the idea that collecting, verifying and selling card data would become harder if only 1% of the data was real.

<comment><AUTHOR> Did you have any downside to that? Did that work for your side project?

<comment><USER3> Not really ... I had a couple fake dumps on our private cloud storage that got flagged by our security team as PII but I actually thought that validated the idea. The biggest downsides to the idea is that you would really need to flood the world with fake data to drown out the real dumps and you'd need to increase the cost of validating an individual dump.</comment></comment></comment>


Report Describes How Armstrong and His Team Eluded Doping Tests - <AUTHOR> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sports/cycling/how-lance-armstrong-beat-cyclings-drug-tests.html

<comment><USER2> It seems like the fundamental strategy of preserving blood samples will clean up cycling to a great extent, though it will take a few more years. It just gets to be too likely that science catches up with you, disgraces your name, and revokes your titles.

Maybe not so bad for Lance, who can take comfort in his fortune, but for most pro cyclists, all they will ever win is honor, which is easily stripped and besmirched.

</comment><comment><USER3> the report "showed blood values whose likelihood 'of occurring naturally was less than one in a million'". Regardless of his doping, surely we'd expect there to be something extraordinary about such an athlete's physioology ?</comment>


Cellphones Are Eating the Family Budget - <AUTHOR> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444083304578018731890309450.html?mod=e2tw

<comment><USER2> Crazy. My family is 5 people; we spend $25 a month or something for all of us for phone service. Never use the 'minutes' or Gb, not even half, even on the minimum plan. And we're very busy people.

Oh! We're busy outside, biking and camping and club meetings and school. Too busy to spend hours at angry birds or whatever crap phones let you do. Maybe that's it.

</comment><comment><USER3> With the abundance of free wi-fi in most cities it seems almost unreasonable to be spending that much money on cell data.

Is there anything so critical to do on a cell phone that it is worth changing grocery purchasing habits to accommodate?

<comment><USER4> Doesn't have to be critical. Food from Aldi may be less prettily packaged but it's by and large just as good. If you value what a nice smartphone gives you (and if she's watching TV on it every day it sounds like she's getting her money's worth) I think it's totally legitimate to give up going to a fancier supermarket for that.</comment></comment>


I only use an iFrame to crawl and scrape content - <AUTHOR> http://www.airovic.com/itsjustaniframe.html <comment><USER3> This is how the very first version of Selenium worked. The application under test was in an iframe, and the test controller was in the parent page. The Selenium "Remote Control" protocol was later added where the controller would phone home to a listening web server for commands to relay to the iframe (basically, AJAX before it had a name. It all mostly worked for the most common test cases, but we abandoned this approach for similar reasons mentioned in the article -- the edge case limitations became more and more frustrating over time. Ultimately, we merged with the WebDriver project, which was implemented in a more native way, avoiding all the limitations of automation-via-iframe.

<comment><USER4> "It mostly worked for the most common test cases, but we abandoned this approach for similar reasons mentioned in the article -- the edge case limitations became more and more frustrating over time."

The article only mentions malformed URLs and browser run-time errors. Were there any other "edge case limitations" that became intolerable.

<comment><USER5> Some websites will detect the iframe and send nothing instead of the requested page. I happen to know from personal experience that YouTube is one of the sites that does this.

<comment><USER6> > YouTube is one of the sites that does this.

that's because they have a proper iframe-embed url: [https://www.youtube.com/embed/quyj70RogxI](https://www.youtube.com/embed/quyj70RogxI) (instead of [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyj70RogxI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quyj70RogxI) )

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Yeesh, everyone is so critical here. It's just a blog post about how somebody does occasional one-off scraping across multiple pages using browser devtools.

Yes of course injecting an iframe into a third-party site with devtools isn't going to replace Selenium. But it's a clever little hack in a pinch. No need to get upset.

<comment><USER3> Go back far enough in time (2004), and injecting an iframe into a third-party site _is_ Selenium. I agree, using an iframe is a fun hack!

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Wow, I just posted this, went to take a nap, got back and 84 points ¿?!

The site is working now, it was retrieving some localhost scripts.

I was just trying to get some feedback and to check if that document was interesting, because I was spending a lot of time on it.

For what I see, it seems Selenium does exactly the same, but I would choose this iframe solution (small-medium projects) anyway.

It's a super small tool that do the job.

Please, let me know if you can fully use airovic.com

</comment><comment><USER8> Won't the same origin policy kick in the moment I try to read the content of an iframe that isn't on the same origin as my website?

Or is this meant to run on the dev console on the target website? In which case, the iFrame and the Airovic website doesn't make sense (the electron app mentioned does sure, but it doesn't exist)

<comment><USER9> That was my thinking as well. You cannot access another website's content opened via iframe via Javascript at all.

<comment><USER10> I think you first visit the website, then you inject an iframe onto the page you're currently on, and then inside that iframe you can scrape any content on that website.

That's at least what it looked like from his examples.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Okay, the way I see this is that using headless tools like puppeteer or selenium is tedious; just trying to... er scrape my HN account's favorites (AFAIK no API) becomes a task when you have to automate login.

Just typing in and pressing the button is much easier than automating the task, so that's why the iframe is something useful. You can interact with the content (without code).

<comment><USER3> The irony is that the iframe approach is exactly how the first version of Selenium worked. It's a cool hack, but we abandoned that approach over time because automating iframes couldn't cover all automation use cases.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This sounds hilariously n00by because it's VB and Internet Explorer, but creating an Internet Explorer instance through VB in, say, Excel and then dumping data into Excel was great because I had full control over my IE instance.

Okay, I'll stop speaking now and revealing the fact I started my career as a data guy at a giant corporation instead of a software engineer.

<comment><USER13> Haha, loser! Looo sseeerr

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I can do everything listed in benefits with puppeteer, while I can't even make sense of what iframe is supposed to achieve here, or how it's even gonna load (anyone with a shred of sense would set X-Frame-Options to SAMEORIGIN, subject to exceptions). The airovic.com site doesn't work and hilariously attempts to load two seemingly important scripts from localhost...

I'm very confused about this submission, and even more confused about how it managed to almost top the front page.

Edit: Having read the code samples, it seems the code snippets are supposed be run from the same origin in the dev console. A quick and dirty way to interactively scrape without navigation, I guess? Still not sure what the "all together: Airovic.com" is supposed to mean, and definitely more limited than puppeteer.

Edit2: To be fair to the author, they did say

> You cannot bypass their protections without using a HTTP Tunneling > component.

Which I didn't see until just now. This is a pretty big caveat though, should probably be more upfront...

<comment><USER15> He's traversing the site using the injected iframe. That is, there is no top- level navigation event, only an iframe navigation event. Then he's gathering information from the iframe hosted DOM and combining it in the context of the starting, main page.

I think it's kinda clever.

<comment><USER16> Injecting an iframe into websites could trigger an assertion error, because the iframe isn't supposed to be there.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi, that's right. Some sites protect html injection. Twitter protects their site very well, but if you use http tunneling they can't do nothing as you can modify X- headers.

<comment><USER17> Interesting, could you explain what you mean by http tunneling and how it can bypass protection against html injection?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> For this kind of tasks I usually create a private Firefox extension which gives me access to extended browser capabilities and the ability to lift some security-related restrictions. I run it in a sandboxed browser, much like I would do with something like Selenium or Puppeter, but I have much more options to hand-tune the automation.

</comment><comment><USER19> Depending on the nature of the content being scraped, you can use the `sandbox` attribute to the iFrame to prevent scripts from running.

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/if...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en- US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/iframe#attr-sandbox)

This was useful for a brief period when I ran a news aggregator that used iFrames to display content from other news websites. Adding the sandbox attribute prevented scripts, ads, modals, etc.

For the purpose of scraping, unless you're always on the same domain(or running a proxy to add CORS), I don't see how an iFrame is better than either a web extension or a backend script using Puppeteer.

</comment><comment><USER20> Is the only reason for the iframe so that it is possible to keep a state in the top frame while loading different pages?

Because otherwise - since you use the dev tools to inject the iframe - <USER2> don't really need the iframe. You can just run it as a "snippet" in Chromium or from the multi-line-code-editor in Firefox.

Both have the problem that it all has to be a single file. It would be much nicer if one could import modules.

<comment><USER21> >Both have the problem that it all has to be a single file. It would be much nicer if one could import modules.

Isn't this a solved problem in javascript land? Just use a compiler/minifier and your module oriented js code is in a single file as a build artifact.

<comment><USER20> Then every time you want to make a change to your code, you have to go to your original codebase, make the change, start the compiler, copy the output and paste it into your dev tools ...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4>
             $iframe.contents().find('.result-row').each(function(){
             data.push({
                             title: $(this).find('.result-title').text(),
                             img: $(this).find('img').attr("src"),
                             price: $(this).find('.result-price:first').text()
                 });
             // And everything starts running when you set first iframe's target url
             $iframe.prop("src", "https://newyork.craigslist.org/d/apts-housing-for-rent/search/apa");

Looks like he wants output something like

             title:
             img:
             price:

I tried reproducing this example without using Javascript, instead using curl and sed. The output is

             image:
             title:
             price

I did not try to move "title:" above "image:" though I bet this could be done using the hold space. Nor did I format this as JSON though that would be easy to do.

             n=0;while true;do test $n -le 3000||break;
             curl https://newyork.craigslist.org/d/apts-housing-for-rent/search/apa?s=$n|sed -n '
             /result-title hdrlnk/{s/.*\">/title: /;s/<.*//;/^title: /p;};
             /./{/result-meta/,/\/span/{/result-price/s/.*\">/price: /;s/<.*//;/price/p;};};
             /data-ids=\"/{s|1:[^,\">]*|https://images.craigslist.org/&_600x450.jpg|g;s/,/, /g;
             s/1://g;s/>//;s/.*data-ids=/image: /;/^image: /p;}'
             n=$((n+120));done

</comment><comment><USER22> I've done something similar in Firefox with scratchpad. The main reason is simply convenience. I don't need to switch to a different workflow, I merely bring up scratchpad (I often already have a window open with some utility functions) and can start hacking away immediately.

Sadly scratchpad is going away soon. Fortunately the console now has a multiline mode, unfortunately it's not as convenient for this use.

</comment><comment><USER23> why don't use something like proxycrawl? controlling an iframe is slow and painful

</comment><comment><USER24> You can even inject a browser extension to chrome with selenium, or even back the selenium with an upstream proxy. So why iframe, what's the edge?

</comment><comment><USER25> do not understand why iframe is a must here, why can I just scrape the whole page directly? still learning web scraping using scrapy.

<comment><USER26> I think the basic utility is that you keep your parent-frame JavaScript context.

Normally if you click a link with jQuery, you lose the current context after the next page loads.

By controlling it inside an iframe it's more convenient

</comment></comment><comment><USER27> Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but can anyone explain to me how this is better than using a tool like selenium for scraping? I guess this might be easier to quickly setup and play around with for one-off scraping?

</comment><comment><USER28> I describe something very similar here: [https://github.com/jawj/web-scraping- for-researchers](https://github.com/jawj/web-scraping-for-researchers)

</comment><comment><USER29> Working for a big tech company, stuff like this infuriates me.

It's exactly why we're currently pushing for the ability to disable developer tools, we want it added to Chrome and other browsers. I should be able to, as a web site owner, not allow any kind of developer tool usage.

Users do not own our product and have no right to go poking around like this!

<comment><AUTHOR> You are talking about websites, not native apps. Make a native app.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What is the most undervalued startup you know? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Bill Gray's Velkess project was a superior idea to Tesla's Powerwall (IMO!).

It is now unfortunately defunct or at least the website says they're on hold indefinitely.

Here is a youtube video explaining:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6I2lKtfpLQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6I2lKtfpLQ)

It was a flywheel battery. A physical battery. It turns electrical energy into kinetic energy (and back on demand) at a very high efficiency rate. If I remember the specs correctly it could supply 15 kwh. I think the cost for first adopters would have been $6500 a unit. Actually here are the full specs from a sheet I got from the website before it went down:

        Technical Specifcations
        Continuous Power               3kW
        Peak Power (60 seconds)        9kW
        Nameplate Energy               15kWh
        Depth of Discharge             100%
        Interface                      48VDC Virtual Lead Acid Bus
        24h Roundtrip Efciency         >80%
        Expected Service Life          10 years
        Physical Package meter(inch)   1 x 1 x 1 (40 x 40 x 40)
        Weight kg(lbs)                 340 (750)
        Standard Connectivity          Wi-Fi, Ethernet
        Optional Connectivity          CAN Bus, RS-485, Xbee, Powerline, LoRa

        Energy storage systems of any size can be built by linking 2 or more (n) Velkess L systems togetherin parallel.
        Multiple parallel Velkess L modules will self balance and behave as a single energy storage system with performance equal to (1 module) * n.

The clever part was that the flywheel (flywheels are dangerous due to the large amount of kinetic energy) would employ a lasso effect to crumple and use its own energy to destroy itself if there was a technical problem.

The killer app quality it had was that a flywheel of this sort could theoretically run for many decades without failure. The first iteration had '10 years' expected service life but I believe that was being very conservative and it had the capability to last much, much longer.

<comment><USER3> Do you have any links, more information about the 'lasso effect' ?

<comment><USER2> It turns out their website is now live (it wasn't the previous time I checked) and appears open for business.

Since it's up I'll just directly quote from the horse's mouth:

"Velkess's flywheel was conceived from the very beginning up to provide dramatically lower cost for performance. To do this we had to take a fundamentals approach, re-imagining the flywheel from the ground up.

Flexible vs. Rigid

Traditional flywheels are designed and built like the turbines of high performance jet engines. They use super rigid materials and super high precision fabrication to very tightly control the powerful natural dynamics that are characteristic of all high energy spinning rotors. These materials, precision, and control techniques are all very expensive, so you simply can't use the traditional rigid approach to make a low cost system.

Velkess's flywheel is flexible and works very much like a cowboy's lasso. Our flexible system embraces the natural dynamics of the rotor, redirecting any stray energies into stabilizing counter forces. By working cooperatively with these natural rotor dynamics we gain excellent control of the rotor system without having to crush out its irregularities. Because of this we can use much less expensive materials and don't need nearly as much precision as rigid designs."

[http://www.velkess.com/technology/](http://www.velkess.com/technology/)

One day I hope to build a microhydro plant and having one of these would be great.

<comment><USER4> > It is now unfortunately defunct or at least the website says they're on hold > indefinitely.

> It turns out their website is now live (it wasn't the previous time I > checked) and appears open for business.

So in the 1 hour between your first and second comments, they brought the site back online and started taking orders? You understand how that might be hard for people to believe right?

<comment><USER5> Instead of trying to imply that he's a liar you could just visit the site and find out for yourself that he was right the first time around.

[http://www.velkess.com/](http://www.velkess.com/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Omnicharge. A powerful, smart, portable, multi-device charger. It has the potential to be a massive hit. [https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/omnicharge- smart-compact-...](https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/omnicharge-smart- compact-portable-power-bank-smartphone-powerbank#/)

They keep shifting the shipping date.

</comment><comment><USER7> I thought [https://airtame.com/](https://airtame.com/) would get pretty huge by now

<comment><USER8> It's called chromecast

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> MaidSafe

</comment><comment><USER10> Make your own bubble tea anywhere you want. Only 1 CHF a cup.

[http://www.baobao-bubbletea.ch/](http://www.baobao-bubbletea.ch/)</comment>


Show HN: ARCO – Next Level AR Robotic Toy - <AUTHOR> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/945994322/arco-an-augmented-reality-robotic-toy <comment><USER2> That should be fun!</comment>


Show HN: Dad Jokes Texted Daily - <AUTHOR> http://dadjoke.info/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hey HN!

I put this together for fun and thought I would share. It won't cost you anything, I promise not to spam you, and you can opt out at any time.

Sorry, but it will only work with US phone numbers at this time. I'm sending the messages with Twilio and its pretty expensive to send outside the US. Some people have offered suggestions on ways around it and when I get some time I'll try to work out a solution.

You can see the repo here with the database abstracted away: [https://github.com/chasedehan/DadJokeJunkie](https://github.com/chasedehan/DadJokeJunkie)

</comment><comment><USER2> Nice idea, but why not have the daily joke on the homepage as well?

<comment><USER3> Yes, this definitely needs at least a joke on the homepage. You have space on the right side. You could have a few jokes that are shown randomly on page load. That would be nice.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is great. I was looking for that 'something' to take my Dad jokes to the next level, this is it. My kids' eyes are gonna roll... I love it. Thanks for making this.</comment>


Ask HN: How can we (developers) help in the fight against CoronavirusPandemic? - <AUTHOR> Technology is contributing in shaping the business, but how can it help in the fight of current problems such [Corona virus](https://weileizeng.github.io/Open-Source-COVID-19/)?.
I can see many ways to help limit the spread, e.g:
- Fighting misinformation - Educating people on what to do - Drug Discovery
I would like to know if you have any idea on apps, website or organizations working on fighting this virtus.
For those who live in China, Iran and Italy. People in other part of the world would like to know about some of the local apps that helped, these apps can be localized. <comment><USER2> These seems to be a coordination effort on [https://coronavirustechhandbook.com/](https://coronavirustechhandbook.com/) It's a set of Google Docs, seems very active.</comment>


New App Lets You Boycott Koch Brothers, Monsanto And More - <AUTHOR> http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2013/05/14/new-app-lets-you-boycott-koch-brothers-monsanto-and-more-by-scanning-your-shopping-cart/?partner=yahootix

<comment><USER3> So you're telling me you get my email, my political inclinations, and my offline purchasing habits.

T&C includes the "no class action" and binding arbitration clauses. Privacy policy doesn't actually mention anything about campaigns I use or products I scan, which makes my suspicious mind ... umm... suspicious. At least it omits the "or as otherwise allowed by law" blanket "we do whatever we want" clause.

They do say they won't sell or rent personally identifiable information. I'm not sure if they could weasel out of it by using some sort tracking cookie, but it looks like they seem to be limiting themselves to selling aggregate data.

I'm not a lawyer, of course, but I don't think I really said anything anyone else can't read for themselves.

<comment><USER4> I don't understand why things just _have_ to be online-enabled nowadays. It seems like this app could be implemented with a daily-updating list of which products belong to which company, but my understanding is that they do a live server check, which wastes data and is very bad for privacy.

It seems like "talking to a server" is the default for everything nowadays, even when it doesn't need to be.

<comment><USER5> "my understanding is that they do a live server check, which wastes data and is very bad for privacy."

Hmm so it doesn't work online where I buy tons of stuff from Amazon Prime, and it doesn't work in brick and mortar because my brick and mortar and steel grocery store has absolutely dismal minimal coverage if any (maybe they have a jammer?). I suppose it would work great at the farmers market ... where everything is grown locally and mostly organically so it doesn't have much of a point anymore. Other than stunts in front of a camera for journalists I'm not sure where I could use this app.

<comment><USER4> Sorry, don't read too much into my comment. "My understanding" just comes from the parent comment, I haven't tried the app out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> As a someone who supports the right to life, you'd think I'd be interested in this app, but on reflection, I not interested.

Turning everything in ones life in to a form of politics would be way too draining I'd think and ultimately not a productive as one would like.

I'd rather spend ten minutes a day helping on a suicide prevention hotline, or donating resources to newly expectant mothers, than try to ferret out every last connection to abortion clinics by furtively scanning bar-codes every time I went shopping.

<comment><USER7> heh...

It's funny... the UX person in me was thinking it would be easier just to take a picture of your shopping cart and have it highlight the items you shouldn't purchase. Just based on packaging. Then I thought ... hey ... an even better idea would be to hold the phone up in front of the shelves and have all of the offending items X'd out.

Then I thought ... man ... all of this would be a LOT easier if Google Glass had a better camera! Maybe Apple will make a better pair of glasses and in the not too distant future we can just walk up the aisles and have all the products we wouldn't want to support X'd out for us.

Point is... in the future you will most likely not have to scan the bar code. The software will just put X'es over all of the products that are "bad" by some definition set by you. That would be a pretty interesting use of something like Glass I think.

<comment><USER8> Maybe you could also have it do face recognition and tie that in with sentiment analysis of people's twitter, facebook and Google+ feeds so that you can be cold and aloof or just plain avoid people with "bad" viewpoints.

<comment><USER9> I'd like a red X over people that discuss, say, the political opinions of celebrities.

Also I think avoiding products if you disagree with the company owners is laudable and I don't really get why you are responding with such snark.

<comment><USER8> To me, it seems too tribal and "total warfare"ish. Remembering and boycotting a few things... sure, although generally that doesn't have much effect. But tagging all products that have some association with people who don't fit your world view seems scary and close-minded to me.

<comment><USER9> Ah. I agree with your first point, it's ineffectual. But my hope would be that an app can help people boycott more effectively (who would guess that bottled waters are sold by Coke and Pepsi?) and have a greater total effect.

I don't think it would be like excluding all the products that don't fit my world view, but excluding all the products from actors whom I think are doing severe damage to the environments and legislatures of the world's nations.

<comment><USER10> > (who would guess that bottled waters are sold by Coke and Pepsi?)

Maybe it's a bit of a reach, but the Coke/Pepsi vending machines here have water in them and that was how I figured out each company also had their own brand of bottled water they also sold (Aquafina for Pepsi and Desani for Coke).

<comment><USER5> If you research it you'll find both are bottled filtered tap water. For awhile I tried figuring out where they were bottled, mostly unsuccessfully. The holy grail would have been finding competing plants in the same city bottling the same municipal tap water, but I was unsuccessful. Not all corporate bottling plants bottle all products at every plant, I couldn't figure out which of my coke products came from the nearest syrup plant in Chicago or bottling plant in Quincy although it seems all Pepsi products are reminiscent of the proverbial "thousand mile salad" and come from the sand states (or what we in the center of the country call fly over, because we fly over those states on our international vacations which we can easily afford because we don't live on the coasts)

<comment><USER10> Oh yeah, I think at least one of them says it's tap water in the fine print on the bottle (or did). Pretty funny though.

Not water, but oddly, Dr. Pepper is bottled by Pespi here. In other parts of the United States, Coke or 7up bottles it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> So what exactly makes the Koch Brothers and Monsanto worse than Facebook (also a horrible political lobbying monster corporation)? Because they're not tech companies who your friends work at?

<comment><USER12> Koch Brothers: [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers- flout...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-02/koch-brothers-flout-law- getting-richer-with-secret-iran-sales.html?nr_email_referer=1)

Monsanto: poisoned people with Agent Orange, DDT, and polychlorinated biphenyls (re PCBs: <http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0101-02.htm>)

Facebook: ???. I guess their CEO is an arrogant, 20-something billionaire, and they play fast and loose with online privacy. They have yet to kill anyone or commit treason[1]. So there's that.

[1] Or, as they'd call it on Arrested Development, " _light_ treason"

<comment><USER13> How can you poison people with DDT? DDT is harmless to humans. It's been eaten in large doses to demonstrate this point.

The only harm involved with DDT is the millions of poor mostly-non-white people dead from malaria (including many children) because of the irrationality of some privileged wealthier mostly-white people (not including many children).

For more info start with <http://industrialprogress.com/2012/01/26/the-story- of-ddt/> and google.

<comment><USER14> This is simply not true. There are scads of studies that have established DDT's potential for human toxicity in diabetes and cancer. Not only that, DDT's LD50 is not particularly large.

Salesmen used to drink large amounts of organophosphates to show farmers it was harmless -- now we know that class of peaticides cause serious neurological disorders.

<comment><USER13> Source?

Or more importantly, where is the evidence that exposure to much lower dosages of DDT causes more harms than millions dead of malaria?

<comment><USER15> Yeah, but malaria mostly only kills (tens of millions of) children in poor countries in Africa and Asia so it's of no concern to right-thinking environmentalists in rich Western countries.

<comment><USER16> You're exaggerating. Malaria is a killer, but it's not tens of millions of children per year. The WHO estimates a number just shy of a million, about 50% children. That's still a sizable number and in principle you're right - <USER2> of them are in poor countries.

However, the mechanisms that drive this are more complex. A grossly simplified version goes like this: Since the population that's hit worst has no buying power, no pharmaceutical company is interested in developing a vaccine or an effective, cheap treatment. Malaria is very much a poor peoples illness due to a variety of contributing factors: No access to effective treatment, no access to mosquito nets, no proper hygienic conditions, no enclosed living spaces that keep mosquitos out.

Just spraying DDT on every swamp in Africa is not a solution to the problem. DDT accumulates in the food chain, mostly in fat and gets fed to the children you're trying to protect via the mothers milk. It is linked to an increased rate of stillborn and cancer. It's really not the kind of stuff you'd want to use if there's any alternative.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Awesome! I've been working on something similar:

<http://www.collectiveoffset.com/>

I think this is an interesting concept and it will be cool to see how this space evolves!

<comment><USER18> Cool project.

I actually don't like the use of offset however. Why do I want to offset Chic Fil A? If I don't even eat there--I don't have anything to offset. Offset also makes me feel like I am helping to return to the current status quo. What if I don't want the status quo? What if I just want to fight Chic Fil A?

I think that the idea that users contributing a small amount of money to combat the negative spending of some corporations is incredibly sticky. ("Look at the power of my small dollars! I'm making this evil corporation burn their money!").

But how do you convince visitors to the site that this math adds up? Users may want to donate but would probably be more likely to donate if they were convinced their dollars had that much power. Maybe an infographic explaining it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> An alternative is to specify generic items (eg. breakfast cereal) and let the program construct a shopping list that most closely fits your criteria (eg. brand XYZ fruity munchies). For each item, maybe offer a pop-up that lists alternatives in descending order, so you are not happy with a suggestion you can easily scan for and select a "next best"? You can then use your shopping list in the normal way.

Maybe it could also offer the option to place the order for you, so it becomes an "ethical online shopping" site? Like any other shopping site, your list could be saved and reused/tailored next time. If the status of any item changes, a suggestion to change brands could automatically be made next time the list is used. Funding could be by negotiating a cut of each purchase with the vendor?

</comment><comment> jack-r-abbit Honestly, this sounds like just too much trouble and I guess I just don't really care enough. If I refused to buy anything that was made or sold by anyone that had ever done harm to anyone, I'd probably starve to death... homeless & naked. I've spent the last 2 years reading the label of every food item I buy my son because he's allergic to eggs and soy (and we avoid nuts because we're too afraid we'll kill him with one) so I can tell you a little something about how much of a pain it is to scrutinize every single item you purchase. It is not as easy as it sounds. And even if there is an app for that... it will still suck. Personally... I don't think this is worth it. To each their own.

<comment><USER20> Consider the possibility that the point is to not purchase consumer goods from corporations.

<comment> jack-r-abbit Unless I buy everything on Etsy.... aren't most things coming from corporations?

<comment><USER21> > If I refused to buy anything that was made or sold by anyone that had ever > done harm to anyone, I'd probably starve to death...

Boycotting does not have to turn into a religion that drives you into starvation. You can just try to support the less evil choice, or only when you have time to spare.

<comment> jack-r-abbit And ultimately... that is why this type of activism usually fails eventually. First, in order to pick the lesser of two evils, you still need to scrutinize every item so you know which one is the less evil. That still takes time and after doing it a few times and realizing your trip to the market, etc took twice as long as it should, many people will not continue. This app has been all over my Facebook feed. So I imagine a decent number of my friends shared it... but probably didn't install it. That is not any more useful than changing your profile pic "to support" what ever cause is viral this month. Of those that did install it, you've given them the out they need... _only when you have time to spare_. After trying it a few times and seeing how it effects their life, maybe that one time they are in a hurry and don't have to time to figure it out, they just go with it. Reminding them just how much work the boycott is. But that was just one little fudge... they'll do better next time. Right... this little chip in armor is all it takes for so many people to eventually give up. Only the most dedicated people will continue for any length of time that would even be noticed by the corporations... but probably not enough people to make them change. Sure that is a pessimistic, cynical view but tell me you haven't seen this exact set of events happen time and time again. We'd like to hope this time would be different. But history is a pretty good indicator of the future.

<comment><USER21> I see this all the time. But I also see people who can't be bothered to vote (even in referendums), or can't be bothered to use the gym membership they've proudly bought, or are in the habit of eating junk food every day. Should we now give up on everything that has a little friction?

Just as we inside the HN bubble care about IP laws (see every thread about Apple's lawsuits), there are plenty of people who care deeply about food or other issues. And it's not a huge investment to use this app once during weekly groceries and figure out which companies are opposed to $personal_beliefs. After that a "good enough" boycott is pretty much zero effort.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Note: you don't have to do this in the store. You can buy your stuff as usual, scan it at home where you may have better connectivity, and then revise your shopping list for next time.

If you get a hit on Choco-bits at home, then you know that you also won't be buying Fruti-bits, as they're both made by Sulfur Industries. I don't think you need to go slowly down the aisle scanning everything with a bad connection.

</comment><comment><USER23> So, the evolution of this is some app running in your glasses that rates everyone you meet on some criteria based on what your preferred media source(1) (e.g. MSNBC, Fox News) says about the companies they buy from and the artists/writers/politicians they like.

1) note, facts require research not punditry

</comment><comment><USER24> The Revolution will be an In App Purchase.

</comment><comment><USER25> As I go through a store using this app, a storekeeper stops me, concerned that I'm just using his store for "showcasing". Luckily I'm able to explain to him how the app is helping me not buy many of his products. Once he learns this, he is much relieved and lets me go on my way.

</comment><comment><USER26> The iOS app appears nicely designed but the server side is struggling. Couldn't create an account, app website is very slow <http://buycott.com>

Looks like Ivan could use some help

</comment><comment><USER27> That's seriously genius. I can't believe how creative people are honestly. Can't wait to use this app.

</comment><comment><USER28> wow, this is very interesting. It would be awesome if they can give away the data that powers the app. Others can build their own apps

</comment><comment><USER29> Nice, now we just need one to avoid products made in Israel.</comment>


RFC 7169 – The NSA (No Secrecy Afforded) Certificate Extension - <AUTHOR> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7169

<comment><AUTHOR> Likely an April Fool's joke, no?</comment>


The Creative Fund Launches to Back Every Project on Kickstarter - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@thecreativefund/the-creative-fund-launches-to-back-every-single-project-on-kickstarter-33ac29affdf6 <comment><USER2> I'm sorry, but this idea really doesn't make any sense to me. $1 on every project doesn't make any meaningful difference--every project that would have failed without it will still fail, and every project that would have succeeded will still succeed. Your contributions have zero impact if you do it this way.

If you instead looked for promising projects that _would_ fail without your ~$2000 contribution and "save" them, you really could make a huge difference.

<comment><USER3> You would be surprised at some of the messages we get. Actually heartfelt responses of folks saying that getting this first pledge pushed them over the edge to push harder. I'm excited that if we get to a point where the funds might be even $5 or $20 per project, that CAN be a material difference to lots of cool projects. Projects don't need even $1000 goals to be compelling.

<comment><USER2> I'm sure that it's encouraging to people, but in the end it's very unlikely to change any outcomes. If the project is going to succeed, someone else would have made that first pledge, and the same effect would have happened. It _feels_ impactful from your end because you're getting involved in so many projects (and getting a lot of thank-you messages), but if all the same projects succeed and fail you haven't actually affected anything.

It's probably also worth mentioning that small pledges (especially $1 ones) are the least efficient in terms of how much of the pledge is lost to fees. A $1 pledge on Kickstarter loses 15% to fees. This is made even worse by having the money come via Patreon, where a similar chunk is lost. So if someone pledges $1/month on Patreon to you, this will end up with a project creator only receiving about 70 cents of it.

I don't mean to be too cynical, it's a great thing to do. I just think it's worth considering if this is really the best approach, or if you could change your method a bit and make more of an impact with the effort and money you're devoting to it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Why donate to this, paying 10% to Patreon and possibly an unknown percentage to cover The Creative Fund's overhead (if not, how will the project sustain itself?) as opposed to giving directly to the projects that deserve it most?

A much more interesting model for me would be something like a "last 20%" backer. Let users vote on campaigns that have 20% and and only a few days to go, looking very likely to fail. Winners get funded by The Creative Fund (provided its within a certain max funding threshold).

</comment><comment><USER5> I don't mean to be a downer here... but what impact does this project realistically hope to have? A dollar spread that thinly might as well be nothing.

<comment><USER6> We're still learning, but so far we've had overwhelmingly positive feedback from folks that feel encouraged by our pledges. We're also working to raise more funds so we can increase the amount of each pledge. It's in the article, but 100% of the funds we raise on Patreon will go towards that goal.

<comment><USER5> So the goal is to pat people on the back with token amounts of money? Well, it's not my money...

<comment><USER3> As we mention in the article, a lot of it IS about the token statement, and we have thousands of KS messages at least of grateful folks supporting. Do you value your $1 supporters on Patreon? Do they have a material benefit for you?

If we figured out how to make the fund work for Patreon, how would you feel?

<comment><USER5> I do value my $1 supporters on Patreon - emotionally because they chose to support my work in particular rather than the mindless shotgun approach, and financially because there are 46 of them.

If this project raises enough to give $46 to every project, they'll need $92,000 by their own reckoning and will still be giving little more than a vapid pittance to each. Can you really not think of something better to do with 92 grand?

<comment><USER3> *47 now

<comment><USER3> (can't reply to your latest comment directly)

I legit shared your most recent blog post " Simple, correct, fast: in that order" to our dev #goodreads slack channel on Monday, so go figure.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Happy to answer any questions! This was a fun project to start, and we have lots of crazy ideas how we might make this even more fun (ie Patreon people above a certain level automatically get filled out to get rewards, etc etc)

</comment><comment><USER7> Some projects on Kickstarter are bad and even harmful and shouldn't be helped.

<comment><USER3> Great point. We do outline that we reserve the right not to support certain projects per our guidelines: [https://thecreative.fund/participation- guidelines](https://thecreative.fund/participation-guidelines)

Also, Kickstarter does a great job keeping the project quality to the point of staying in ultra murky territory, which we are very appreciative.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Is this really an effective way to fund projects? What are all these projects going to do with $1? Wouldn't it be better to give 1 very promising project $2,000?

<comment><USER3> $1 can be an inspiring start that gets folks to promote their project and get up and get going. It is a bit more about the principle, like a high five to get up and get going.

Also part of the experiment is the Patreon. Every $1,000 we may or may not raise means we can up the amount by ~$1, every month. So that means as an individual, you can pledge ~$12/year and say you contributed to every project on Kickstarter that year.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> A dollar is not a meaningful contribution. It would be better to make a 20-100 list and give 500-2k. Else is it really a Fund?

<comment><USER9> Or better yet, fund a sweeping amount to their minimum goal level, either by votes or without notice.

<comment><USER3> if our patron list grows, it could be this big! Good things start small.

<comment><USER9> Do they?</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: It's Thanksgiving. What are you thankful for? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> For being healthy. For loving and feeling loved. For working for a company whose vision I believe on, with people I learn from, and which allows me to work remotely so I can spend most of my time with the people I love. For having a job that is well paid, that I enjoy doing and that allows me to see how people use my work to learn and build amazing things. For being part of communities that share their work and knowledge so we can grow faster than what we'd do individually.

</comment><comment><USER3> [https://youtube.com/watch?v=sLSveRGmpIE](https://youtube.com/watch?v=sLSveRGmpIE)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I'm thankful that everyday is a new day.

You get to start over and try again.

I'm doing that with my son these day. Thankful that he's still young</comment>


Data Gif Maker by Google News Lab - happy-go-lucky https://datagifmaker.withgoogle.com/edit <comment><AUTHOR> I always fail to understand how an organisation like Google, who value mobile so much, can keep churning out web pages that can't display properly on the smaller screen.

</comment><comment><USER2> I'm either missing the point of those gifs, or they do look kind of pointless.

As a test, I compared: 1,2,3,4,5 with 5,4,3,2,1. Expected a smooth movement from left to right. Got a visualization that jumps all around the screen.

What information is this supposed to convey? What's the role of the animation? Wouldn't it be better shown with a bunch of stacked horizontal bars on top of each other? E.g. my example:

      x=====
      xx====
      xxx===
      xxxx==
      xxxxx=

</comment><comment><USER3> The Material Design approach to the wacky animations I used in my first powerpoint presentation.

</comment><comment><USER4> any examples?

<comment><USER5> This techcrunch article has some examples:

[https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/25/googles-data-gif-maker- let...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/25/googles-data-gif-maker-lets-you- easily-make-basic-data-gifs/?ncid=rss)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> This is very... underwhelming.

</comment><comment><USER7> This really made by Google?</comment>


Show HN: The simplest way to detect corners on a image - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/victorqribeiro/naiveCorners <comment><AUTHOR> They're giving me a hard time about this project over reddit. Well, my point is: it's very easy to import OpenCV into python and call a bunch of read to use functions to do your processing for you ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECiMgXvMKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cECiMgXvMKQ)), another thing entirely is to try to come up with your very own solution.

I named this algorithm Naive Corners because I know it's not robust, efficient or ready to use in production, but I thought it was cool enough to share with people.

<comment><USER2> Do you have the reddit link? I'm curious to see what people are saying.

It's certainly interesting- I don't think it actually performs corner detection from the YouTube video on the site if thise black staticky areas are what your algo is picking up then obviously those arent corners) but nonetheless an interesting idea.

<comment><AUTHOR> [https://www.reddit.com/r/computervision/comments/c9ta80/the_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/computervision/comments/c9ta80/the_simplest_way_to_detect_corners_on_a_image/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)</comment></comment></comment>


The Decline of Unfettered Research (1995) - <AUTHOR> http://www.math.washington.edu/Commentary/science.html

<comment><USER2> Interesting paper. This is a big problem that I only see solved when public dollars start to pour again in research as opposed to the corporate sponsorships that have replaced them and demand applied science and quick profits in return for their investments.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I recommend the Readability bookmarklet.</comment>


The Mechanics of Apple Card - <AUTHOR> http://www.loopinsight.com/2019/03/26/the-mechanics-of-the-apple-card/ <comment><USER2> Everyone writing about the "genius" of this card literally has no idea about credit cards or fintech.

The merchant on a map thing has been done for years. When are you going to actually use this and why?

Categorized transactions? Wow. Why has no one thought of this before? Oh wait even my tiny credit union does this.

Is this an okay card? Sure. Is there anything innovative here? No.</comment>


Why Mongrel is a Slumdog (and Passenger Rocks) - <AUTHOR> http://statsheet.com/blog/passenger-nginx-much-better-than-mongrel-at-least-for-statsheet

<comment><AUTHOR> Anyone seen Passenger leaking memory?

<comment><USER2> You mean if Passenger runs with the Ruby Enterprise Edition?

Passenger leak(ed) memory <2.2.4.

<http://blog.phusion.nl/>

"Along with revamping the Apache module's I/O routines, we accidentally introduced a memory leak. It leaks about 8 KB of memory per request. Our apologies for this."</comment></comment>


Search is amazing compared to 10 years ago at AltaVista - <AUTHOR> http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2011/02/search-is-amazing-compared-to-10-years-ago-at-altavista.html <comment><USER2> Let's not forget that web content has also evolved with search engines.</comment>


Emacs and Common Lisp - <AUTHOR> http://tromey.com/blog/?p=709#comments

<comment><USER2> I guess I should really participate in emacs-devel a bit more, but I've always been in favor of allowing Emacs to support multiple languages with a common runtime. Emacs Lisp is slow, that's true, but there's no problem intrinsic to its syntax that makes it slow. Similarly, there's nothing intrinsically slow about the runtime that Emacs provides; it's a bog standard dynamically-typed language with the slow stuff implemented in C. What we need is a proper compiler, one that can compile Emacs Lisp to either native code, or a proper intermediate representation that can be optimized. Unladen Swallow seems like a good model.

With a proper intermediate representation, we can begin writing compilers for other languages. Then you can write your extensions in Common Lisp, or Emacs Lisp, or Scheme, or JavaScript, or Perl, or whatever you feel like writing a compiler for. This won't fragment the community, because the runtime will be the same for every language; yes, there will be syntax differences, but in the end, everyone is programming to the same API. This is different than what Vim does with its programming language support (recompile Vim to embed opaque interpreter object, pray when you choose more than one language).

The only problem is that Emacs Lisp is fine for 99.9% of use cases, and it's fast enough for 99.9% of use cases. One worry I have about "proper language support" is that people will start "engineering" Emacs extensions. (By which I mean, treating software designed for interactive use by programmers as though it's "enterprise" software. When you need to write software that must not fail, concepts like encapsulation are very important. But when you're writing software that's designed to be edited by the user while it's running, you can't write it that way. Emacs Lisp explicitly encourages this, but CL, Scheme, and JavaScript don't.)

<comment><USER3> > What we need is a proper compiler, one that can compile Emacs Lisp to either > native code

This has actually been done (possibly badly?) and turned out to be a wash in terms of performance.

<comment><USER2> Yeah. It might be worth trying again, considering the good performance of newer language runtimes like SBCL, Node.js, and Unladen Swallow.

<comment><USER4> What "unladen swallow"? That project did not have the expected improvements and was abandoned...

<comment><USER2> Unladen Swallow might not be usable in production, but as a research project it's pretty interesting. One of its problems was supporting C-based extensions, but that's not a requirement for Emacs Lisp, and so a similar project might be more effective for Emacs than for Python. (I also like the idea of using LLVM for dynamic language runtimes, but as time goes forward this seems less likely to work out.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> GNU already chose Scheme as the language of choice for Guile, which is (intended to be) to GNU as a whole what elisp is for Emacs. So I could see emacs eventually being ported to Scheme. But not CLisp.

<comment><USER6> By using the "CLisp" when you mean "Common Lisp", you make yourself seem not knowledgeable enough to be speaking about the matter at hand.

<comment><USER7> He did not discuss the language itself, but GNU's choices. So the "matter at hand" seems irrelevant to the correct naming of CL.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> While this sounds like an interesting and ambitious project, I don't think it will ever get off the ground. I use Emacs daily for 80% of my work and its performance is not an issue. The author seems a bit too optimistic that a GCC plugin can automate the majority of the port to CL -- it may provide a nice start but finishing the port will me a considerable amount of tedious work and from the perspective of an Emacs user, I suspect either they won't notice the change or the change will introduce new bugs.

<comment><USER9> The lack of proper multithreading has bit me many times when I try to use Emacs as an email client--start talking to the IMAP server, and your whole Emacs process takes a break. Can't edit anything, we're stuck until it either finishes or you hit C-g.

<comment><USER2> I use IMAP over SSL with Gnus, and the actual talking-to-the-network is asynchronous (handled by another UNIX process). The slow part is generating the summary buffer on large groups.

(BTW, if you use IMAP with Gnus, I highly recommend using a local IMAP server instead. You can sync to your remote IMAP server with offlineimap. This speeds up Gnus enormously for me; reading my Maildir directly from Gnus is too slow to be usable, but reading it through a local IMAP server makes reading my inbox instantaneous.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Not to discourage, but this will never happen, at least with mainline emacs. Of course, there's nothing stopping a fork from rewriting the lower level code as suggested, but don't ever expect it to get merged. Think a different language interpreter/operating system with a common library and applications, which is exactly what this would be.

</comment><comment><USER11> Not strictly related, but I've been thinking over a clojure+SWT emacsalike editor for a while now. It just might work.

<comment><USER12> It's a Heruclean effort but would be great. Imagine the possibilities of having all of Java available in your editor!

<comment><USER13> I'd much prefer to have all of elisp in my editor than all of Java. The existing elisp libraries are much better suited for an editing environment than Java.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> This has been proposed in the past.

One of the difficulties to be overcome is the huge base of existing elisp code. This code base is part of the attraction of emacs.

<comment><USER15> [Indeed](<http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsImplementations>). And [this](<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emacs#Other_forks_and_clones>).

That said, I wonder about the possibility of taking an Emacs written in some other language and adding an Elisp interpreter to it such that it could make use of all the existing Emacs elisp out there.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> In the comments, what important truths about GNU's nature is Tom talking about? (Where he writes "but recently I have learned, painfully, that I was only part of GNU by denying important truths about its nature.")

</comment><comment><USER16> I'd rather have a Emacs on JavaScript; with a possibility to be run from the browser. (Yes I know, that'd mean rewriting everything. Not the end of the world, it'll be fun time.)

<comment><USER13> Not necessarily... The vast majority of emacs is written in elisp, and the amount of instructions written in C is actually rather small, It's been a while, but on the order of a few hundred too a few thousand.

Once you were to rewrite the elisp interpreter, and other calls from C into JavaScript, in theory, running emacs in you're browser isn't actually that absurd.</comment></comment>