Ask HN: How many programmers out there keep a paper notebook for their projects? - <AUTHOR> What kind of notes do you take? Sketch out component views? Pseudo code?<p>My grandfather is a retired electrical engineer who used to plan out and record progression on all his projects. He has boxes filled with his old notebooks. Is this just an old school take on project management and source control? Or do people find benefit in actual note taking during their projects? I've worked with dozens of programmers through out the years and I don't think I've ever seen someone approach it this way. I (briefly) attended one of the top IT schools, and outside of scratching pseudo code down on a napkin I don't recall it being practiced there either. <comment><USER2> Your grandfather probably came from a shop where engineers were encouraged or required to write _everything_ down as they discovered problems and worked on solutions. Those notes became critically important when the patent applications were started. Some larger companies even provided nice leather- bound blank books for the engineers to use and keep on their shelves for later reference.

Capturing ideas and visualizing your problems is something they don't teach you in IT school. Over my career I've leaned that an on-hand notebook is _way_ more useful than carrying a laptop around. I can sketch out ideas, graph out signals, and do dozens of other things quickly and silently. It's a lot less intrusive in meetings. Plus, you can doodle.

I've used everything from pocket steno books to college spiral notebooks. Moleskines are nice, but way too expensive.

My current go-to notebook is a college notebook I picked up in Germany for a couple of Euro. It's the right size (not a toy steno book and not a massive 8x10 binder). Side-spiral bound is critical, you can fold it open on a desk without taking up twice the space. Grid paper is killer for mapping out things out. A nice touch is the microperfed edges.

Looks like they're on Amazon but in packs of 5. Still, not a bad deal:

[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landre-100050630-Wood-Free- Perforat...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Landre-100050630-Wood-Free-Perforated- Tear-Out/dp/B00KL49JZC)

<comment><USER3> that looks really nice, I have a this one [https://www.amazon.com/Engineering- Computation-Letter-Sheets...](https://www.amazon.com/Engineering-Computation- Letter-Sheets-35500/dp/B001J87JTM/) but I wish it were spiral bound.

Do you know if there are any US suppliers for yours?

<comment><USER2> Unfortunately, I've never seen anything like this at this price point in the US. There's Moleskine, obviously, but they're crazy expensive and the journals don't lay flat on a desktop which drives me nuts. There are grid books at art stores like Blick, but those are even more expensive.

This might a be a good compromise. I should go to my local Blick and check this one out:

[http://www.dickblick.com/items/77825-1310/](http://www.dickblick.com/items/77825-1310/)

The only thing I've ever had from the US that came close was a 5x7" JournalBooks 91340 that Freescale gave me as a promotional giveaway. It's a little larger, but had a durable plastic cover and a pen holder which was pretty sweet. It seems you can only order these in bulk as a custom-branded item. Perhaps someone enterprising could kickstart up 100 orders and do a foil-embossed HN-branded cover for people to purchase. I guess HN needs a logo, too. =)

[https://www.journalbooks.com/products/24-hour/24-hour- journa...](https://www.journalbooks.com/products/24-hour/24-hour- journals/value-books)

<comment><USER3> I use to get these fantastic blank journals that were hard cover bound back in the day from Borders Books before they went out of business. I still have a few from the late 90s. I would love to see something like that with a grid.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> I keep notebooks still for most things. I use them to jot down ideas, sketch out designs and just generally write down my thoughts so I don't forget them, I usually have one to many per company and one per project. I also use them to take notes in meetings versus trying to take notes on my computer in real time. Personally, I find it pretty rude to be typing away on a computer while people are presenting or we are discussing ideas. It seems far less rude to jot down notes on paper and then come back to it an flush things out after the meeting.

I do translate my notes as I work through the problems and put them in a tool like OneNote or Evernote etc. But I always start off with sketches and notes in a notebook. My bet is if you looked at the pattern of those who use notebooks vs those who don't, you'd find those of us using notebooks still skew to an older average age. 40ish+ likely.

Personally, I also jot down pseudo code on paper to get my thoughts right before starting to code the problem. This lets me get my thoughts straight before coding it and I find I make fewer mistakes, plus I am faster when I do this. It is also one of the reasons I dislike coding interviews where someone wants you to just start writing code in the IDE. I don't do that well, because to me the process is, understand the problem, design the solution, engineer the solution, then start coding.

<comment><AUTHOR> Have you found any writing or organizational patterns to be useful? When you design a solution, does that look like a flow diagram? When you engineer a solution, do you jot down in natural language what you think you should do?

<comment><USER4> So, I do follow patterns. For notes they are just notes, written down in my own shorthand methods many times, but I leave space around each note so I can come back and jot down extra information or revise myself. So usually I leave a line or two of space depending on what it is.

When I am trying to solve a problem, I write the problem down first, then move into breaking it down in a process. I define the actors involved, the expected input and the expected output and any error conditions that I identify. Then from there I generate a simple hand written flow chart (not fancy) that will serve as a happy path through the problem.

When I get to the engineering of the problem that is where I start identifying parameter limits, error conditions, output limits and then generally write down some pseudo code to give me something to look at, sometimes that means flushing out a more complete flow diagram first. And I generally use just natural language, as none of what I am writing down is real code, although I may use abbreviations or C syntax at times to express something if it is easier. For example, I use the conditional ? : quite often for simple flow control statements just because it is compact to write, even though in code I may not use that operator in that instance.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I use a Hipster PDA.

Step 1: get 3"x5" (~8cm x 12cm) index cards. They can be ruled, gridded, blank, colored, whatever. Step 2: Get a binder clip. Step 3: Clip the cards together.

It's pretty easy to get index card storage bins, and it's convenient to take around a little stack in your pocket. If you have a lot of cards, a rubber band works almost better than a clip, but it works better with fewer cards. There's a lot of templates you can print onto cards, but I usually just use gridded / blank cards for code ideas. An added bonus is, you can rearrange cards with different functions to help structure out code ideas. Or you can print out code, cut out relevant bits, and glue them onto cards.

I tend to manage task lists/todos, mind mapping, and pseudo-code on cards. Very handy on long bus rides.

<comment><USER6> I use quite a few index cards as well. I recently outlined an ebook I'm writing, a card to each section. I'll use them to physically map out the flow of products as well - use a card for each feature/ button and move them around. I also use them to make drawings, some of which I saved and published in a zine.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> I keep a notebook. I use it to take finer grain notes about tasks than can be expressed on a ticket. Also whenever I am going through an unfamiliar codebase I take hand written notes . I know there are a few iPad apps that are effectively an infinite whiteboard but I like to handwrite stuff.

</comment><comment><USER8> I sketch design elements/components, sometimes structures, various lists very rarely pseudocode. I prefer to write down ideas which have to be realized, instead of jumping straight to realization (pseudocode).

I don't have boxes of notebooks, but I do have couple of small shelves filled with years of notebooks. From time to time I like to go through that stuff - it's actually very interesting to see your though process from years ago. Besides notebooks I have small binder filled with hundreds of post it notes for projects which I store.

Overall I vastly prefer handwritten notes for projects than some kind of digital notes. It's easy to open page for the recent feature, easy to see what you have in mind, how something should be done or what should be considered. ON the same page I could have multiple "data structures": reminders, lists, summaries and descriptions which easily show state of the progress for project/feature.

I very much like Moleskin-type notepads with dot-grids with around 100 pages. I have 2 notepads - one for work and one for personal projects.

</comment><comment><USER9> I use a composition notebook for each large project. I'm a consultant so I also put notes from client meetings in it as well as sketches, ideas, and calculations especially those of a visual nature.

</comment><comment><USER10> I use one of these: [http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT126734/it.A/id.5/.f](http://shopping.netsuite.com/s.nl/c.ACCT126734/it.A/id.5/.f)

My job is half hardware/firmware so I put a lot of meeting notes, specs, and calculations in it.

</comment><comment><USER11> I use paper a lot, but no notebook. What I find disturbing with them is the mixing of different projects stuff. Also I prefer to have a lot of space for drawing.

That's why I use blank gridded A4 paper sheet. Then I put together project related notes. If a project starts to be big enough, it will naturally lead to a pack of papers that I can carry along. Otherwise the project can kind of fade away be laying around or being mixed with other sheets.

I mainly draw application architecture and app screens. I also tend to note in natural language problem related to those. So this is design notes. For technical notes about deployment for example, I use One Note.

</comment><comment><USER12> My company issues standard notebooks to every employee. A manager / former systems engineer retired last week after ~30 years and had 50 or so of these notebooks on his shelf.

I've been going back and forth lately between keeping notes in a Markdown file on a shared drive and using my notebook. The Markdown file is much better for searching and ease of access (I'm on 4 or 5 different computers around the office during a week), but for some unknown reason I keep going back to pencil and paper to sketch things out. When I had to do some light mathematical derivations it was all on paper though.

</comment><comment><USER13> I was searching for exactly the same stuff yesterday, and I found this:

[http://lifehacker.com/five-best-paper- notebooks-1157038442](http://lifehacker.com/five-best-paper- notebooks-1157038442)

I usually keep notebooks, but I am ever more convinced of using one because of Rich hickey's talk: [https://youtu.be/f84n5oFoZBc](https://youtu.be/f84n5oFoZBc)

and we have a better chance of remembering something if we write than type. [http://lifehacker.com/5738093/why-you-learn-more- effectively...](http://lifehacker.com/5738093/why-you-learn-more-effectively- by-writing-than-typing).

I have previously read that people like Martin Gardner had an awesome system of keeping notes. I would love to know more about your tips.

How do keep your notes? How do you organize stuff, while retaining the freedom to doodle. How do you find stuff again(which is the killer feature for typed notes). Would love to learn from the masters - do you have any books to recommend?

<comment><AUTHOR> I've always had a difficult time keeping notes organized. I think because I'm a web developer I always have a gazillion projects going on. I can't justify having a notebook for each project. I've tried keeping up manilla folders with loose leaf papers, but that was a mess. I tried three-ring binders, but that's not very convenient. A few weeks ago I tried the bullet journal technique and it's been working out well for me. It combines your daily calendar / todo list with project notes. I think it's just the simple idea of having an index that helps me most.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I use notebooks for general notes, ideas, sketches, todo lists. Also make notes on stuff that I finally gotten to work, e.g. scripts, etc.

Early in a project I use a pre-punched pad and file the pages into a ring binder, under categories, topics. Once the project is well underway, I tend to use those pages to write up the detailed documentation in files which are stored in the same directory hierarchy as the source and other files.

</comment><comment><USER15> I was a habitual moleskine user, I think I have about 30-40 filled ones sitting in a closet somewhere.

But about 3 years ago, I bought a Samsung Galaxy note 8.0. Because it has a pen.

I had the original iPad, and a stylus, but you either try to write with your finger (no good) or use a stylus (write holding someone else's finger) and it sucked big time.

But with the Note, and actually the stock S-Note app, I had everything I needed - nice size, pressure sensitive pen - plus extra benefits: I like to diagram out stuff, draw circles and squares and link between them, and the old version of S-Note has a great feature where I can draw a crappy circle, and it will automagically turn it into a perfect circle. Same deal with squares and lines.

So now I use it exclusively, have my ~200 notebooks backed up in various places, native form, image and pdf.

Shame though, it looks like it is going to be EOL'd. I am seriously considering buying a bunch of spare parts to mke sure that I can keep mine running for a while.

But to sum up: best of both worlds - like writing on paper, but with the convenience of all that is digital.

</comment><comment><USER16> I take A4 paper from the printer, cut it in half (making A5), and clip it together with a large bull-clip at the top left.

Discard pieces of paper when done, or file them (or scan/photo) when need to retain. Can discard in groups, creating small folders, clipped together with other bull-clips.

A never-ending, revolving notebook.

</comment><comment><USER17> I have always used lined note pads at work, for meeting notes and task lists.

At home, I've always used large, letter-sized books of drawing paper. I have about 10 of these filled with diagrams and notes, mostly for 3D engines and games I've worked on in the last 15 years.

</comment><comment><USER18> I'm doing a PhD in computer science and use a notebook religiously.

I couldn't imagine life without it.

<comment><AUTHOR> How do you organize? Do you keep a notebook for each project? Do you use an index?

Do you start off with a todo list for you projects? Or do you use something like trello for that?

For me, most of my projects aren't large projects. They're lots of little ones. Bug fixes, feature add-ons, website extensions... those kind of things. I can be juggling 20-30 "projects" through-out the year and only need 1-4 pages for each one. Whenever I tried to keep a notebook I quickly get un- organized and lose energy for keeping it up.

I'm starting to think a 3 ring binder might fit my needs better. Do you ever use one of those?

<comment><USER19> I'm a grad student in Geomatics engineering, and I organize my workflow with a notebook and trello.

Notebook / Notepad: I've started transitioning away from notepads because loose sheets of paper aren't very good for long-term documentation. They are good for meetings and mocking something up, however, so I keep my notepad around for that, while I use a line-grid moleskine to document procedures / math that I am currently working through. This is mostly for long-form documentation, or working through ideas on paper first. I wouldn't suggest managing tasks via a notebook, it becomes too cumbersome and you may not always have your notebook on you when you need to check a todo (in an impromptu meeting, or if you think of something at the grocery store, etc).

Trello: This helps break down tasks and organizes which tasks / todos are left. Think of it more as project management, and don't try to document the world in Trello. Of course, whenever I do an expense claim I take pictures of the receipts and store them in trello in case I need to look them up again, but otherwise I don't store too much outside of basic tasks / todos. My only personal gripe is that Trello doesn't really offer Bitbucket integration (only Github), so referencing my Bitbucket issues on project boards can be somewhat tiresome. But specific features, issues, and tasks from Bitbucket projects do make it on Trello, and I move / archive / delete tasks based on how things end up getting implemented. Usually if I delete or archive a task, I leave a short comment (e.g. deleted in favour of doing X, or resolved via issue #Y on Bitbucket, with any specifics for that issue put into the issue tracker).

I've been trying my best to quantify things into tasks and just throw them on Trello, rather than have things scattered between my email inbox, Bitbucket issues, etc, that I'm currently working on. As for indices / an index, I don't really find it necessary. Most of the long-form stuff I care about is in my "current" notebook, and I can more or less figure out where other documentation is if I need to find it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Guidelines for using an engineering notebook.

[http://www.bookfactory.com/special_info/engr_notebook_guidel...](http://www.bookfactory.com/special_info/engr_notebook_guidelines.html)

</comment><comment><USER6> I have a notebook that I keep various important thoughts in. It's only semi- organized, and it's not dedicated to a specific project, but many project notes are kept in it. I think this is a habit that I retained from my time in the Marine Corps. Pen and paper just has a certain feel to it - when I'm completely focused on my thoughts, it's much less distracting to dump right into the notebook rather than into a phone or a computer. One time I misplaced my notebook for about a week and it was a rough time.

</comment><comment><USER21> I always have a pen and paper notebook on my left when I program. It is super useful to have the swap space. I always take notes so that I can remember what was agreed on, especially action items.

</comment><comment><USER22> I use a paper notebook to sketch out diagrams and sometimes make todo lists. I like to use the notebook during useful meetings too, I feel like it's less distracting than a computer.

</comment><comment><USER23> I like to use a notebook for random thoughts, todo lists, and diagrams. Taking notes on paper in meetings helps me commit important details to memory and having them all in a book keeps me more organized.

I used to always buy Moleskine notebooks but have switched to Forestry Suppliers #49352 field book. It is a combo of ruled and graph paper and intended for surveyors, but it is a nice mix for developing software as well.

</comment><comment><USER24> I use paper for random notes or to work out the flow of logic or data that's a little too hard to do entirely in my head, but other than it being naturally more or less chronological, I don't do any further organization.

I usually don't need to refer to those notes for more than a few days after I write them, so it's usually not much more than an archive of thoughts.

I try to digitize some of it, but I don't do that enough.

</comment><comment><USER25> I keep some paper notes especially when sketching out visual UI aspects before trying to implement them. But I keep _extremely detailed_ text files for each ticket as I'm working on it as well. It helps my pick up right where I left off and to find something that was thorny if I need to work with it again a few months later.

</comment><comment><USER26> I do, but never manage to find a way of keeping them usefull in the long term. I write some stuff related to current tasks or random thoughs but after a couple of days they become irrelevant and several unrelated projects get mixed.

Any ideas about how to organize notes?

</comment><comment><USER27> For balance, I try my hardest to be completely paperless! I prefer having my notes searchable on a computer.</comment>


Ask HN: Do you have any technical book recomendations for monitoring apps? - <AUTHOR> I need to upgrade the logging and monitoring system of my applications and I wander if there is a book that could help me build a solid solution.<p>My application is .Net and hosted in Azure but any architectural technical book could help me. <comment><USER2> While not strictly about monitoring, Designing Data-intensive Applications [1] is one our our bibles when instrumenting a complex global network.

We use ideas like CDC and eventsourcing to make streams of data that we then correlate and visualise.

[1] [https://dataintensive.net/](https://dataintensive.net/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for this suggestion, I had that book in my reading queue and I will read it next.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Disclaimer: I work for Loggly

We recently published a buyer's guide - [https://www.loggly.com/wp- content/uploads/2019/07/1907_loggl...](https://www.loggly.com/wp- content/uploads/2019/07/1907_loggly_buyersguide.pdf)

You can think of this as a checklist for building your strategy and choosing a vendor.

There's lots of good stuff here as well - [https://www.loggly.com/ultimate- guide/](https://www.loggly.com/ultimate-guide/) that's not specific to Loggly but contains a ton of information about logging in general.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for the information. I am looking for a log server and unfortunately every SaaS solution is at this price range.

<comment><USER3> Just wanted to point out that Papertrail offers log filtering that doesn't count against your log usage - [https://help.papertrailapp.com/kb/how-it- works/log-filtering...](https://help.papertrailapp.com/kb/how-it-works/log- filtering/).

I have a rails app in production but was able to keep my costs down by filtering out basically everything that wasn't a stack trace.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for that, it does have much cheaper options

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Whilst perhaps a bit tangential to what you're looking for, "Database Reliability Engineering" by Charity Majors is an excellent read, and has a chapter covering all the major steps in improving observability in existing apps / infra (here applied to databases).

<comment><USER5> I always wanted to read, but haven't heard many people talking about it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> You should look in to "observability". google it. There some great open source projects Jaeger, Prometheus, OpenCensus etc that allow you to gather and visualize metrics, traces etc for your app.

Site Reliability Engineering is the book you should check out.</comment>


Safe nuclear does exist, and China is leading the way with thorium - <AUTHOR> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8393984/Safe-nuclear-does-exist-and-China-is-leading-the-way-with-thorium.html

<comment><USER2> _The plans were shelved because thorium does not produce plutonium for bombs._

At least according to wikipedia the MSR produce 233U which could be used to making nuclear weapons (see Operation Teapot <http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Tests/Teapot.html>)

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Good discussion on Energy From Thorium FB page: [https://www.facebook.com/EnergyFromThorium/posts/20497309953...](https://www.facebook.com/EnergyFromThorium/posts/204973099530473)</comment>


Police forcing me to install Jingwang spyware app, how to minimize impact? - <AUTHOR> https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/194353/police-forcing-me-to-install-jingwang-spyware-app-how-to-minimize-impact <comment><USER2> Is this only being done in Xinjiang ([https://thenextweb.com/asia/2017/07/25/chinas-forcing-its- ci...](https://thenextweb.com/asia/2017/07/25/chinas-forcing-its-citizens-to- install-a-terrifying-big-brother-app-on-their-phones-or-go-to-jail/)), or have the police expanded it to other parts of the People's Republic of China?

ETA: Apparently some tourists are being forced to install it as well: [https://www.reddit.com/r/security/comments/8ofiiw/chinese_bo...](https://www.reddit.com/r/security/comments/8ofiiw/chinese_border_police_installed_software_on_my/)

Also worth checking out the excellent ABC (Australia) multimedia feature on China's "social credit" system:

 _Social credit is like a personal scorecard for each of China's 1.4 billion citizens.

In one pilot program already in place, each citizen has been assigned a score out of 800. In other programs it's 900.

Those, like Dandan, with top "citizen scores" get VIP treatment at hotels and airports, cheap loans and a fast track to the best universities and jobs.

"It will allow the trustworthy to roam freely under heaven while making it hard for the discredited to take a single step."

Those at the bottom can be locked out of society and banned from travel, or barred from getting credit or government jobs.

The system will be enforced by the latest in high-tech surveillance systems as China pushes to become the world leader in artificial intelligence.

Surveillance cameras will be equipped with facial recognition, body scanning and geo-tracking to cast a constant gaze over every citizen._

[http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social- credit...](http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a- model-citizen-in-a-digital-dictatorship/10200278?pfmredir=sm)

<comment><USER3> Looks like a tourist to Xinjiang ([https://www.reddit.com/r/security/comments/8ofiiw/chinese_bo...](https://www.reddit.com/r/security/comments/8ofiiw/chinese_border_police_installed_software_on_my/e03ae1a/))

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Can we stop with argumentative and ultimately pointless comparison between the US and China.

For me what's astounding is:

"Lastly, nothing is transmitted from the individuals device to the receiving server over HTTPS — all in plaintext via HTTP — and updates are unsigned. This means all the data the app collects is transmitted to the unknown entity on the receiving end in a way that allows someone with a trivial amount of technical knowledge to intercept and potentially manipulate" [0]

Is there any reason besides incompetence why the apps developers would do this?

[0] [https://www.opentech.fund/news/app-targeting-uyghur- populati...](https://www.opentech.fund/news/app-targeting-uyghur-population- censors-content-lacks-basic-security/)

Edited: formatting

<comment><USER5> >Is there any reason besides incompetence why the apps developers would do this?

Well... cheap shot maybe, but it's Android. People are always hating on Apple for having security checks and rules. Android, on the other hand... how did Sundar Pichai put it? "We prioritize openness over security," something like that.

Openness does sound good but positioning it as a tradeoff with security bothers me. Having both would be good.

I'm wondering how this is or will be handled on the Apple platform. When that information comes out, I'm not expecting it will make Apple look good, since they have said they will follow the law (no matter how bad the law is!) wherever they sell their devices. If following the law means allowing a spyware app into the App Store, and they do this, I'll have to reevaluate my expectations of privacy for using Apple devices.

<comment><USER6> > Openness does sound good but positioning it as a tradeoff with security > bothers me. Having both would be good.

Letting people write and install whatever program they want necessarily includes letting them write and install shitty programs.

<comment><USER5> Yes. I can write and install any shitty program I want on my Apple device. No problems there.

But when it comes to other people's devices, those other people probably want a say in who the device is open to and when, and for what purpose. Apple helps make it possible for them to have a say.

While I am free to install astoundingly shitty software on my own iPhone/iPad/Mac, Apple makes it difficult for me to install shitty programs on other people's Apple devices without their knowledge or consent.

Seems like a reasonable way of doing things. Open for your own device, and others get to decide for themselves what they are open to for their devices.

<comment><USER7> How are you free to install software on your own iPhone or iPad when you need a developer account to get a signing certificate to install your app on your own phone?

<comment><USER5> With a developer account.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Reading stuff like these always makes me so sad about Chinese people. Guys just like me, who like fiddling with computers and just want to be happy have to live in this totalitarian nightmare. I know it sounds silly to care about this stuff when probably there are much worse things happening in China, executions and stuff. But from my ignorant POV, tech is the one thing I can relate to.

At the same time it makes me feel lonely. I would love to be able to help them in some way, but I can't.

<comment><USER9> This is in Xinjiang region.

Muslim minority (but majority in Xinjiang, more or less resisting forced assimilation). Regular Han people don't really have much sympathy for them, and since China is nowadays an ethnostate, the state won't care either.

They would not currently attempt to do this in Han cities.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> What are the benefits & liabilities to both installing and to circumvention?

What I mean is that China is known to jail political dissidents (and or lower their social score which has negative implications, like limiting travel), so you have to weigh the risks of being viewed negatively via the spyware's information leakage with the risk of getting caught circumventing. For example one could only be a lower social score, while the other could literally be jail or "disappearing."

I might sound like a immoral question, but you really have to weigh the potential risks of doing what that thread asks. I won't give people advice on circumvention not because I agree with the Chinese government (I don't!) but because I don't want to be partly responsible for a Chinese dissident getting caught and "punished" for the attempted circumvention.

<comment><USER11> In my view, there is a case for civil disobedience. However, if you are going that route, then you should be prepared (and possibly even welcome) the consequences. Your goal should be to draw attention to the problem and put pressure on the government to change its laws.

This tactic is very good _if the government is likely to respond to that kind of pressure_. Gandhi and his followers risked death for their actions. Gandhi referred to them as "soldiers" because, even though their battlefield was political, the consequences were the same. Through the horrific deaths of the disobedient, the British government was forced out of India. Before you engage in an act of civil disobedience, you need to understand the playing field. For India, Gandhi surmised (and was correct) that the result would be as inevitable as the losses, and people willingly sacrificed themselves for the cause. _This will not always be the case_ (and I would be very much surprised if it _is_ the case in China because there is very little pressure that can be effectively applied to the Chinese government, whether inside or outside of the country).

So if civil disobedience is not the goal, what is the point of trying to work around the spyware? Obviously to avoid being spied upon. But it's important to understand that it is breaking the law. It makes you a criminal -- with all the downsides that can bring. It doesn't matter whether it is moral or not. Being punished for breaking the law is an incredibly wasteful thing to do from the perspective of trying to make the country a better place, if you are not going the civil disobedience route (and hence using your punishment as a strategic weapon against the government).

So what can you do? Possibly nothing except wait. Fighting and losing may be valiant and courageous, but it's also ineffective. Wait until you can make a difference. Prepare, and plan and store all your energy for the one time where you can succeed. If it doesn't come in your lifetime, then prepare the next generation to wait. Nothing is forever.

And if you want to know how to communicate: never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. As the top reply on SE currently points out, make your cellphone squeaky clean and ensure that there is a lot of normal data on it (i.e. use it like a normal person). Communicate secret things in a different manner.

<comment><USER12> what you're advising is literally almost impossible to do today and will just get harder to do as time goes on. all it takes is one person on your social graph texting/emailing/sending you the wrong thing and you'll be flagged.

if a panopticon exists, the only way to live a normal life is to avoid it by bypassing it. there is no other option unless you refuse to interact with suspicious people who don't follow your "different techniques". in which case the government succeeds anyways in their efforts to chill disobedience

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> This just makes it obvious what smart phones are in a world where people pretend otherwise because they're so damn useful.

They are tracking and spying devices. It's implicit in the idea of a 'cell'. When you carry a cell phone you _are_ being tracked. No matter what is going on in the software side of the phone you have ostensible control over you don't control the baseband modem and certainly not the basestations doing multilateration with their super precise clocks. And it's going to get worse with the proliferation of micro and nano cell basestations as well as massive MIMO beamforming at regular ones.

</comment><comment><USER14> How to minimize impact? Not possible. Once the device is compromised, there is no going back, it is time to stop using the phone for any "questionable" behavior you do not wish Big Brother to record. The only real solution is to live in a place where police do not force you to install spyware.

And do not name your phone "tiananmen square massacre 1989"

<comment><USER15> [https://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from- sear...](https://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search- engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6)

Fire Torch Oil lamp Candle flame Blood Democracy Autonomous Twitter Six four Eight nine Eight eight Tank May 35 35 Six Four 64 June Jun+4 Thirty-five Twenty-four Six+four Six 4 6 four

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I'm curious what happens if you use a phone that's incompatible with the app. Do you get a free pass, or is China going to only allow the use of compatible devices?

<comment><USER17> I thank my lucky stars everyday that Samsung has still yet to figure out how to port their security rootkit to OSX. Getting into and out of Digital City is already horrendous enough as it as, I dont need software spying on me forever until I format my machine.

<comment><USER18> Since there are (were?) virus that can survive a HD format, I wouldn't trust a simple format against a state agency spyware.

<comment><USER17> I should have been more clear.

If you want to get into most any Samsung building in the world and especially their global HQ in Suwoon they make you install their security shit on any Windows laptops you've got. It blocks USB ports, prevents you from connecting to anything but corporate wifi, and disables any cameras amongst other things.

Once your business with samsung is done you can email someone (And I think it's literally only 1 guy for all of global samsung) and in a couple weeks they'll email you a one time code tied to some kinda hardware ID that you can use to uninstall the software from your machine.

I've got no reason to believe that Samsung is in kahoots with a nation state for any nefarious spying, I just resent being treated as a would be criminal.

That being said if you visit a Samsung office in China, just bring burner tech and throw it away before coming back.

<comment><USER19> >Once your business with samsung is done you can email someone (And I think it's literally only 1 guy for all of global samsung) and in a couple weeks they'll email you a one time code tied to some kinda hardware ID that you can use to uninstall the software from your machine

...or restore a full disk backup? actually, come to think of it, what's preventing you from playing along and installing their security rootkit, then reimage/reinstall os/swap hdd/switch boot partition once you get in? unless they can overwrite your computer's firmware and prevent it fro. being modified, its trivial to remove the rootkit.

<comment><USER20> If rootkits stay on HDDs, yes. But they don't. There are hundreds of firmware locations on a machine. Many of them are known to be hackable. So it isn't unthinkable that a wipe of a HDD will not be sufficient to thwart a state level actor.

<comment><USER21> I came to a Samsung office in Suwong with a MacBook. Wasn't forced to install anything, but, in order to use their network and 3rd party exchange site, I did have to install that tool on my Win VM. Should have just made a snapshot of VM image before doing that, and then it'd be easy to roll back.

I was more shocked by airport-style scanning security at the entrance and exit, forcing everyone to seal usb drives and phone cameras.

<comment><USER17> They also run active countermeasures, like deauthing any SSID that isnt one of their own, so no hotspoting. Gotta do it over Bluetooth or a USB cable.

If you find yourself there again make sure to ask whoever is hosting you for VIP status. Supposed to only be Director and above, but it's an absolute game changer as far as the hassle getting in and out every day and I've managed to get it a time or two.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> 1\. Dont try to circumvent with software, they have more experts than you. If you get caught its likely jail.

If you really need some app that they monitor install an Android emulator on your PC.

Or get a phone where their app wont work, like one with Ubuntu or Sailfish OS.

<comment><USER23> If that works, then it should work to have a different Android profile or use an environment isolation app such as Island or Google's Test DPC. I think there's another new one in the F-Droid store, too, now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I'd sell the smart phone. Then buy a dumb phone.

<comment><USER25> It's likely that all dumb phone traffic is already monitored in China (so be careful in phone conversations / text messages), but yeah, if you want your personal files kept personal don't carry them on a mobile or otherwise internet connected device.

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I can't imagine the Chinese government is going to be terribly happy when they find out about that post. I do hope the poster ends up ok.

</comment><comment><USER27> This makes me wonder, if there was a question about how to break US law, whether that post would be allowed to stand?

I suppose if it was informational, then it might be OK. But seeing how the government has gone after Backpage and other similar sites, I think anything that aids and abets it would be shut down.

<comment><USER25> I think there's questions about how to deal with US border security, given how they have special laws that apply to them allowing them to hold you into custody until you give up e.g. encryption keys to your hard drive. They don't advise on how to break the law, they advise to not bring personal data across the border and use a VPN to retrieve it from wherever you're coming from.

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> s/China/Australia/g

[https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about/consultations/assistanc...](https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about/consultations/assistance- and-access-bill-2018)

</comment><comment><USER29> This doesn't seem like a problem with a technical solution. If he slips up and gets caught, that alone might be enough to send him into a Xinjiang concentration camp.

Some of my libertarian tech friends like the idea of more encryption and decentralisation to resist what they perceive as increasingly oppressive governments, but I'm confident that this tech-first approach can never work. A truly oppressive government can easily outlaw these things and identify the users, and they'll be the first to disappear.

<comment><USER25> There's already laws popping up left and right that you get x years in jail (or are just detained indefinitely) if you don't unlock your digital devices or hard drives. The logic being if you have nothing to hide, etc. It's a direct violation of the self-incriminating constitution thing, but there's lots of attempts to talk around that one.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> How is China handling iphones: is there any equivalent to this app? Will they ban iphones in some sensitive locations if the phones can't be breached?

AFAIK iphones don't allow spyware apps to gather most of the data the android app does.

<comment><USER31> I would guess Apple works closely with China and provides special software releases for Chinese devices, probably with spyware embedded.

<comment><USER32> Source?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> If you require the services of a private investigator, I'd recommended Chuck to you. He is a reliable, tested and legitimate IT expert who specialize in proliferating any systems or network operation known and unknown. Write to : Wyvernchuck on g-mail.

He specializes in the following services:

 _Spy on Cheating Partners_ Identification of Cheating Partner or Employee, Mole in a system. _Hack into Bank, Company and Security Agents Websites_ Hack Bank Accounts, BTC top up, BTC investment, ETH investment etc Contact : WYVERNCHUCK at gmail come +1667-308-3018

</comment><comment><USER34> When I read the question (and almost answered, but the answer would have been too similar to another one), I was so surprised that anyone can suggest anything beyond "Do. Not. Do. It".

Having as the adversary a state is a game changer and there are a few purple who have the knowledge to imagine a strategy. Suggesting anything to someone who has no idea about security is simply unethical, given what is at stake.

</comment><comment><USER35> My phone is made in China, from a Chinese manufacturer. How can we know this software isn't either pre-installed or installed via OTA updates?

<comment><USER25> You can't really, which is what got HTC into major trouble (iirc).

<comment><USER36> HTC are not a Chinese manufacturer

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> People are over simplifying this.

China is a authoritarian surveillance state? Yes.

But that only scratches the surface of a deeper problem within. I think China is just a case of policies easily influenced by lobbyists, and gets executed _very efficiently_

This contributes much to China's economical success, as well as its (possible) demise.

</comment><comment><USER38> Reminds me to never go to China. What a nightmare.

<comment><USER39> It usually isn't bad unless you live there. As a tourist, you'll hardly feel like you are in a police state (quite the opposite, it can be quite chaotic and free wheeling as long as you don't go near politics). Ya, the internet will suck while you are there, but the food is great and there is a lot to see. IMHO, you would feel more repressed in a place like Singapore than the PRC.

If you are going to Xinjiang or Tibet, things start to get weird. Both are really nice places to go, but the logistics are complicated and you'll feel much more repressed. I went to northern XJ in 2006 before the 2008 riots, it was absolutely stunning and a great place to tour. I also visited the Tibetan part of Sichuan and Yunnan, equally awesome, you are really missing out if you never see it! The Tibetan areas outside of Tibet are easier to get into for foreigners, well at least they were back in 2004. China is getting more closed than it used to be before the olympics, that's for sure.

<comment><USER40> > As a tourist, you'll hardly feel like you are in a police state

Especially if you can't read the propaganda posters.

> Ya, the internet will suck while you are there

Protip: bring a phone with a foreign international data plan. The packets will be routed over the phone network to your home country and bypass the Great Firewall.

<comment><USER39> Even if you can read the propaganda banners (posters are rare, banners with slogans are more common), it comes off as weird and novel rather than personally oppressive.

I thought that only applies to HK phones, but I have never tried!

<comment><USER41> I can confirm that Google Fi and T-Mobile data get routed back to the US from mainland China. Location services always think I'm in California.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER42> Don't consider a mobile phone to be a secure device.

Only if you completely "own", manage, and trust all suppliers can you say that you even know the scope of trust to associate with your phone. This is not possible on even a "rooted" phone without the software due to the baseband being non-free and non-audited.

</comment><comment><USER43> It is china's fault, not android because if you travel there, your iphone will be checked too.

<comment><USER25> Same in the US, they have laws that allow them to detain you if you don't let them search your digital devices.

</comment></comment><comment><USER44> It would be interesting if someone posted the APK, it's Android so it wouldn't be a big issue to crack it and make it only seem like it works.

</comment><comment><USER45> 1\. Install multiple ROMs on your device.

2\. One of the ROMs would, essentially, be a dummy device which would have the Jingwang spyware as enforced by gun.

3\. The other ROMs would not.

<comment><USER46> And then what do you do when you have the wrong ROM running and you get grabbed by the police with no opportunity to reboot your phone? There are mitigations but getting this right requires a high amount of vigilance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER47> I mean, I see so many solutions to this posted there. Dual Boot Rom, Sandbox etc.

How about carrying two phones?

<comment><USER48> The question says they can't afford two phones.

<comment><USER47> "I can't afford two phones nor two contracts, so using a second phone is not a viable option for me."

Sounds strange. A 100 Dollar phone plus a prepaid SIM?

I actually never heard that the Chinese police forces spyware on your phone, except if you are a Muslim.

<comment><USER49> Welcome to the developing world, where the average monthly salary in major cities is lower than $1,500/mo and in minor cities is often sub-$400/mo and a $100 phone is an incredible luxury out of reach of many.

<comment><USER47> Yeah. Sure. Explain this to me, as a person living in China.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER50> Has anybody made a custom android that sandboxes this app and feeds it wrong information?

</comment><comment><USER51> I hope Chinese party collapses.

If a large illiberal and totalitarian state can succeed and thrive then I fear our own nations will soon follow that path.

<comment><USER52> Please do not take HN threads into generic national flamewar. This is off topic and never ends well.

<comment><USER53> While I agree it probably never ends well, this is hardly off topic in this case.

<comment><USER52> I see your point. There's a subtle assumption in what I said that was probably unclear, so I'll try to explain.

Generic discussions, especially generic flamewars, lead to the same things being said over and over. These topics are important and people feel very strongly about them, and because their passions are so engaged, they stride into the threads with tried-and-true weapons (talking points, prepared statements, and so on) to smite the other side with. The other side responds in kind, and off into battle we go.

In addition to being violent by internet standards, such discussions are also predictable. That's where the point about off-topicness comes in. Predictability is what this site exists to avoid; its core value is intellectual curiosity (see [https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)), and that lives at the opposite end of the topic spectrum. So when I say that an argument like this is off topic, I mean it's off topic for Hacker News as a whole, even if it's related to the story at hand.

Tons more explanation of this can be found via [https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20generic&sort=byDate&...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20generic&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0) if anyone wants it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> I like to remind people of shit like this when they claim that the United States government is an "oppressive" presence on the Internet. Yes, the five eyes nations are actively trying to backdoor crypto, and there is a lot of bullshit going on, but you _don 't need a license in North America to operate an http daemon_. In China you do. The GFW is no joke, and they are seriously trying to bifurcate the Internet.

<comment><USER55> This sentiment trivially reduces to, "everything the US does is fine until it's the most oppressive presence on the internet", which probably isn't what you mean.

The US flexes a lot of political muscle to enforce copyright restrictions, maintain secrets, and expand surveillance around the world. That may not be as oppressive as China, but on a scale from "free" to "China", it's still in the "China" half.

<comment><USER56> Nonsense false equivalency.

Yes, in terms of implementing secrets & National Security-related spying there is overall parity, with the US probably a bit ahead of China & Russia.

But in terms of being an average citizen, it is night and day. At least for now, the US is an active open democracy, with a large majority of citizens actively engaged in maintaining the governmental and extra-governmental institutions the maintain democracy, e.g., independent judiciary, co-equal branches of govt, elections, independent journalism, free speech, etc. Even though these are imperfectly implemented and under threat by the current administration (w/increasing evidence of significant compromise by Russia), the US remains overly in the OPEN and FREE column.

In contrast, China is a straight-up autocracy, and it is openly working to ensure it's citizens do not even know their own history (e.g., Tiananmen, Tibet) or current news (e.g., Uyghurs), and have no capability to independently either obtain accurate information, or to organize to respond appropriately if they can somehow get it. And of course the spyware topic of this article, where ordinary citizens can get stopped on the street for failure to install.

This is little different than "May I see your papers please".

Russia is not far behind.

To falsely equate these regimes and their surveillance & interference levels is tantamount to propaganda.

<comment><USER55> There are interesting discussions to be had about the similarities and differences between China and the US, but saying that "the US is an oppressive presence on the internet" is not without merit. All that is left is disagreement on the relative impacts.

The _reasonable_ people who make that argument are also the important vocal watchdogs who provide the friction against further abuses of power. They shouldn't be casually dismissed just because there are worse governments in the world.

<comment><USER56> No, it is not merely a difference in degree.

It is a wholesale difference in kind/type.

NatSec ops constrained by a robust constitution implemented by an elected govt, with different co-equal branches, including a court system with centuries of experience & tradition of protecting privacy of citizens from the beginning -- one of the principles on which is was founded (see 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Ammendments for starters), and a vigorous tradition of free speech and free press is one side.

The other is an unelected totalitarian govt with a tradition of actively murdering it's own citizens to consolidate single-party political power, decades (China) or centuries (Russia) of manipulating information to the people, zero free press with active suppression, and active programs in both the civilian and military heirarchy to restrict information and spy on the people.

To even remotely equate these systems and the threat they pose to the people is to either 1) deliberately grossly misrepresent the situation, or 2) display profound ignorance of the issues.

If you want to recognize that there is a vast difference of type and then go on to discuss how the US might be better about what they do, that can be a fine discussion. But the land of 'they're all the same just different degree' is so far from reality as to render discussion useless.

<comment><USER57> > NatSec ops constrained by a robust constitution implemented by an elected > govt, with different co-equal branches, including a court system with > centuries of experience & tradition of protecting privacy of citizens from > the beginning -- one of the principles on which is was founded (see 2nd, > 3rd, 4th, Ammendments for starters), and a vigorous tradition of free speech > and free press is one side.

When I think of the FISA court I don't exactly think of "different co-equal branches, including a court system with centuries of experience & tradition of protecting privacy of citizens from the beginning". The FISA court is literally a non-adversarial court.

I think the US court system is one of the best designed in the world. But please don't pretend that the well-developed standard court system is anything like the secret and unaccountable national security court system.

<comment><USER56> Perhaps you don't think of FISA as a system that protects citizens, but that does not mean it is not so.

You might notice that you're already off in the weeds of international National Security issues and nowhere near the problems of what Russia, China, Iran, etc. are doing. So our system is already fundamentally different.

Then, you might notice that you are completely erroneous about FISA accountability. It is accountable to both higher judges and to Congress -- see the original authorizing act and H.R.2586 in the 113th congress on increasing FISA accountability.

Yes, the FISA courts which deal with national security level secrets are different from open courts, and the accountability has been lax. But if there is any "pretending" here, it is that somehow because FISA courts exist, we're somehow on the same plane as totalitarian and criminal states.

For starters, the FISA courts EXISTS, and does turn down requests. Here, there EXISTS a court system requiring evidence, arguments, and warrants.

It may be imperfect, but there is no such structure whatsoever in Russia, China, Iran etc. -- if they want to spy on someone, foreign or domestic, they just do it.

Again, there's a basis for discussion of how the US, EU, and FVEY countries could do it better.

But there is no basis for discussion with a simplistic and/or propagandistic false equivalence of the open liberal democratic countries and totalitarian regimes.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> How true are the reports about treatment of Falun Gong?

<comment><USER52> We detached this subthread from [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18062476](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18062476) and marked it off-topic.

<comment><USER58> Perhaps, but the parent was talking about enormous amounts of people being detained without charge in China. Falun Gong seem to be a very egregious (organ harvesting and tortured to death!) example of this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER59> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism)

China is irrelevant to the average western internet user, to whom the US govt is indeed an oppressive presence.

<comment><USER52> Please keep the tedious cliché that 'whataboutism' has turned into off HN. I don't know how it started but it's now nothing but a flamewar trope.

We detached this subthread from [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061698](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061698) and marked it off-topic.

<comment><USER60> Some things are cliche because they're so often repeated, and sometimes they're repeated so often because they're often apt. Are we really not allowed to call a spade a spade? I can understand that just saying, "whataboutism" and nothing more would be low effort shitppsting, but in the context of a reasoned argument pointing out how something truly is _just_ whataboutism, we're not supposed to point that out?

The comment that set this all off was short and made a single point that can be accurately described by a cliche. There was nothing else to it. I an understand not wanting people to dismiss real arguments with cliches, but I don't think that's what happened here. When someone brags about using a straw man to deflect reasonable criticism, it merits a response.

<comment><USER61> > When someone brags about using a straw man to deflect reasonable criticism, > it merits a response.

Maybe, but that response shouldn't just classify the argument as an instance of the cliche, since that would be low-effort shitposting, as you point out. HN already has the downvote arrow to express that kind of disagreement.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER62> It seems like a pretty safe assumption that google will just play along with the Chinese government and force spyware into phones via play or some update mechanism, if they aren't already working on this.

Stopping people at random on the street to make sure an app is installed seems quite inefficient.

<comment><USER31> Stopping people on the street is also very bad PR and leads to submissions like this. They would be better off doing what you suggested.

<comment><USER63> This shows why it's actually quite efficient. The bad PR is part of the whole effect. They don't want to silently monitor these people, they want to _control_ them, and making it known that they can be stopped at any time and forced to submit is part of the deal.</comment></comment></comment>


Web services should be both federated and extensible - <AUTHOR> http://cdixon.org/2010/09/04/web-services-should-be-both-federated-and-extensible/ <comment><USER2> There is so much data already trapped in Twitter & Facebook services. It is up to those platforms to provide the tools to free it.</comment>


Ops School Curriculum - <AUTHOR> https://ops-school.readthedocs.org

<comment><USER2> Does this need funding? I'd be more than happy to chip in some pennies towards this effort.

In my experience it's surprisingly hard to recruit good quality ops people. Actually it's hard just to get recruiting agencies to filter well for ops jobs but that's another story... Anything that might help this is worthwhile investment.

<comment><USER3> They are selling some videos on oreilly Web Operations 101 [1], General Operations 101[2], and Unix Operations 101[3].

Each video is $40, but "Web Operations" is the Deal of the Week at oreilly, so it´s 50% off

 _These videos are in supplement to the free written curriculum of the Ops School project, available at[http://www.opsschool.org](http://www.opsschool.org) . Ops School is a community-driven, comprehensive program teaching the skills necessary to become a professional operations engineer. Check out the curriculum and learn how!_

[1] [http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920031062.do?code=VDWK](http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920031062.do?code=VDWK)

[2] [http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920031048.do](http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920031048.do)

[3] [http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920031086.do](http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920031086.do)

<comment><USER4> FYI - These videos are available on Safari [0]. I find Safari Library (unlimited access to books/videos) to be a great deal at $42/month.

0: [http://my.safaribooksonline.com/video/web- development/978144...](http://my.safaribooksonline.com/video/web- development/9781449372521?bookview=overview)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> A really good idea, and one that I am going to steal for single sign on and security development</comment>


RIM to cut 2000 jobs - <AUTHOR> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/rim-to-cut-about-2000-jobs/article2108435/

<comment><USER2> wait for it...

so, i guess that means 2000 less rim jobs?

<comment><USER3> hah, that was my thought exactly</comment></comment>


How to get hellbanned from HN in minutes - <AUTHOR> http://bannedfromhn.neocities.org

<comment><USER2> FWIW, as far as we can tell this account was part of a long-running Microsoft astroturfing campaign. You can never be 100% sure of these things, but astroturfers, like spammers, leave trails they don't realize they're leaving.

<comment><USER3> Had to look that up :) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing)

<comment><USER4> Yes, even grass-root is not a very translatable word.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I find it pretty strange that shadowbanning is the default ((semi-) automatic) ban on Hacker News - it's one of the most cruel bans out there.

</comment><comment><USER6> I can see your comments on the original article fine. I do not think that you are hellbanned. If you were shadow banned, won't the comments be invisible to me?

<comment><AUTHOR> I can't post with that login anymore.

Site takes 30 sec to load each page and this comment was auto killed.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6319430](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6319430)

<comment><USER7> I think HN has different kinds of "bans" and some _may_ be temporary, but don't quote me on that. You may find that if you give it a day or two, that you will be able to post with your old account. If not, you can try emailing pg directly and plead your case to have the ban removed. No guarantees, but I've heard of other people doing that and getting things restored.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Is it an unfortunate side effect of an aggressive banning algorithm? The particular people downvoting were not 'out to get you' perhaps - just a side- effect of folks downvoting as usual to show disagreement, a valid HN behavior.

If your account had lived a little longer, others might have chimed in and restored balance. But an algorithm that works that way would leave HN open to griefers etc.

<comment><USER9> The guidelines say that downvoting to show disagreement is wrong.

<comment><USER8> I'd have to see that reference...pg has said from time to time that he does that himself.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Well, it's too bad you got banned. Blame microsofts rather aggressive astroturfing for the knee jerk response, I'd say.

</comment><comment><USER11> Ah ha ha ha. I am new here but I guess these chaps are trying to prove their "Hacker" credentials. BS.

(Update: Having seen ze HN login/registration page, I am beginning to agree. _bows_ )</comment>


Microsoft Apologies for "Big Boobs" Coding Gag - <AUTHOR> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407478,00.asp

<comment><USER2> Externally, Microsoft doesn't have a choice but take the matter seriously - enough negative press, and they'll have to respond, so this is not really surprising.

I'm really curious to find out how they handled this issue internally, though (as unlikely as it is for us to ever find out). Given the size of the company, and the often negative portrayal of it in the startup and other bleeding edge technology communities, I find it surprising to see anything like this make it into the public eye. It gives me hope for finding a cool core of hackers hiding in a dark corner somewhere, with free hand to do as they please and generally do fun, cool, stuff.</comment>


The Obama administration is still voicing support for SOPA. - <AUTHOR> http://a.fightforthefuture.org/sign/obama-sopa

<comment><USER2> Guys, these whitehouse.gov petitions are completely meaningless.

<comment><USER3> Signing a petition is a symbolic act that causes you to commit to yourself the idea "I am the sort of person who cares about this issue". Petitions are, at best, only _secondarily_ for influencing the powers that be. They are primarily for influencing the people who sign them.

<comment><USER4> _Signing a petition is a symbolic act that causes you to commit to yourself the idea "I am the sort of person who cares about this issue"._

Or let you believe you've actually done something, so now you can direct your attention to other things.

Is there any evidence to show that signing a petition makes a person more inclined to take additional practical action?

<comment><USER3> >Is there any evidence to show that signing a petition makes a person more inclined to take additional practical action?

Yes, there is some evidence. In Chapter 3 of _Influence: Science and Practice_ , Robert Cialdini discusses this kind of self-image effect, citing several studies including one in particular about petitions[1]. These kinds of "commitments" (even though they are not actually binding) really do affect our behavior, although the end results are not necessarily particularly issue- focused or predictable.

One thing we can say though with some certainty: if you convince someone to sign their name to a petition that says "stop X", it will take significant mental effort for them to later decide that they actually support X.

[1] <http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/4/2/195/>

<comment><USER4> Thank you, quite interesting. There's a caveat, though (from [http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/org_site/soc_psych/freed_f...](http://faculty.babson.edu/krollag/org_site/soc_psych/freed_fras_foot.html)):

 _Remember, these were innocuous requests from a non-profit group with relatively non-controversial goals. This technique may not produce the same results for more political or more controversial requests._

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Perhaps this is just another case where the Obama administration is "speaking in shorthand."

It sounds like the president is supporting SOPA, but in actuality he is speaking in some law professor dialect where words do not mean what they seem to mean.

<comment><USER6> Yes, because we're not capable of understanding his "shorthand" descriptions of things--SOPA, ObamaCare, etc. Instead, we need another entity to translate what we're supposed to hear--e.g. the media.

IIRC, Reagan's "shorthand" descriptions were directly on point and were not mis-understood by even foreign countries.

I guess Obama isn't the great communicator everyone thought he was...

<comment><USER7> If you compare some of Reagan's speeches with what he did and you can find plenty of cases of 'short hand'. Politicians need to communicate so stupid people like what they are saying, taken out of context they don't say anything embarrassing, AND still convey nuanced ideas to other politicians out there.

Consider back when Clinton wanted to change healthcare many Republicans advocated for 'ObamaCare' which directly copied a host of republican ideas. Republicans did not actually mean what they where saying, they just wanted to shift the debate without saying we like the current system. Which is why you can find so many old speeches that are at great odds with what the party is saying today.

<comment><USER8> I think you're confusing two people at the Heritage Foundation (Stuart Butler and Edmund Haislmaier) with "many" Republicans.

<comment><USER7> Umm, what about: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_refor...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_reform)

I know it's 7 years ago, but Mitt Romney is probably the next Republican presidential candidate and it's not like the party penalized him for his past stance. Or even really talks about it. And if you really want to dig into it, look at who voted for in in that states legislator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I can't find the source for the quote, "we still need legislation for blocking foreign websites." The referenced document doesn't actually say that, in fact, the word "blocking" doesn't even appear in the document at all.

Seems like the author of the petition assumed the reader would thing tl;dr and just assume it was accurate.

</comment><comment><USER10> "For petitions, open letters, or similar public communications that you've signed or completed, we treat your name, city, state, and comments as public information."

Nice. So if I sign the petition they are allowed to sell my data?

<comment><USER11> Isn't this the way petitions work? I mean, if a group brings a petition to a city council, what good is it if it's full of names? Simply saying "15,000 people support this" without enumerating those supporters doesn't seem very effective.

And that also seems to be standard verbiage for online petitions. See this one (<http://civic.moveon.org/save_the_internet/>):

 _Petitions and Surveys

For petitions and surveys you've signed or completed, we treat your name, city, state, and comments as public information - for example, we may provide compilations of petitions, with your comments, to the President and legislators, other targets, or to the press. We will not make your street address publicly available, but we may transmit it to members of Congress and to the President as part of a petition. This is a standard industry practice in such situations. In no such case will we disclose your email address or phone number without your permission. We may also make your comments, along with your first name, city, and state available to the press and public online. Under circumstances where we determine that members may be misusing our systems for malicious purposes (for example, using the numbers we provide to make harassing phone calls), such activities may be reported to law enforcement agencies. In such cases, MoveOn may release personally identifiable information, including name and address, to those agencies._

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> This should not be a surprise.

When I saw that Obama picked Biden as VP I knew that something this would happen. He has been a friend of Hollywood's for a very, very long time.

Furthermore he and Obama agreed to the Carter/Mondale model of how to run the VP office, where the VP is in the white house, in every meeting with the President and is the last man in the room. That gives Biden zero visibility..and a finger in every decision. Hence real power. (As opposed to the way that Reagan/Bush reportedly did things, where Bush's job consisted of checking each day that Reagan was still alive, and then taking the rest of the day off.)

</comment><comment><USER13> Victoria Espinel is not the same as Obama. She is on her last legs in the Whitehouse, and I think most agree that she was a bad hire who has assembled an even worse team. She is the typical B hires C and C hires D players.

She'll be on her way out soon enough. I'm sure she'll land in MPAA land or somewhere equally gross.

</comment><comment><USER14> Obama Admin needs to straight up create a position that is the OPPOSITE of the Copyright Czar...someone who can internally bat against much of what the Copyright Czar comes up with.

<comment><USER15> I'm sure they'll do that right after they create the Peaceful Diplomacy and Non-Intervention Department.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> supporting opposition to bills like this is only the first step.

there needs to be a campaign to make them pass a law or even an amendment to the constitution to prevent them from trying to slip by when noone is looking

they only need to get lucky once...and its a 100x harder to repeal a law than it is to implement it.

</comment><comment><USER17> The article provides a citation as their source. The source is a PDF file on whitehouse.gov, published by the Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator (IPEC). All the document says is that IPEC supports SOPA. Does this mean the White House supports the legislation?

<comment><USER18> Head of the Office of the U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator (IPEC) is appointed by Obama and confirmed by U.S. Senate.

The White House supports it because it _is_ the White House.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> so I am totally in support of blocking SOPA/ACTA and as a developer it is really important to me but the call to action at the bottom is a little misguided.

It actually makes me proud of humanity that more people want to petition for "stop expanding trade with vietnam at the expense of human rights" than stopping ACTA. the latter being somewhat of a #firstwordproblem and the former dealing with human slavery, death, etc.

so when you go sign the petition, sign the "stop ACTA" one AND something else that is, in the grand scheme of things, more inportant to human life.

<comment><USER20> Although I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment about 1st world problems, can you expand on why as a developer you are in favor of more piracy? I feel the big guys will always be able to protect themselves and it is the little guys who really suffer.

<comment><USER21> Being against SOPA/ACTA/etc. should not be construed as being pro-copyright infringement. He might simply be pro-due process and pro-innocent until proven guilty. Those positions alone are enough to cause one to not support these sorts of bills.

<comment><USER20> I wish you were right, but pg has clearly stated anything copyable deserves no copyright.

<comment><USER21> That the original commenter is pro-piracy does not follow from pg having voiced an opinion on copyright. Claiming as much only serves to mask the problems with these bills. Perhaps you meant to limit your statement on wanting more copyright infringement to pg?

<comment><USER20> Thanks for your thoughtful responses. I in no way meant to put words in the original commenters mouth and truly want to know why being a developer means you are very concernered about a bill that protects intellectual property. Anyone can be concerned about the rule of law. What is it as a _developer_ that causes concern about SOPA? Surely you want your products to make you money. Many new users of this site think that not paying for stuff is a good enough reason.

<comment><USER21> Speaking for myself (I am also a developer), I am concerned with the circumvention of due process and presumption of guilt that is built into these bills. If I am operating a service that someone files a complaint against, especially if I am a startup, I have very little recourse before my business is trashed. This is independent of whether or not I am guilty of anything, or my users have submitted infringing content to my service. Content owners and federal agencies have a historical lack of concern about the accuracy of their claims, so I would like to ensure that they have to be rigorous before they can take down my service. They should have to prove to a judge that I am in fact in violation of the law before they can cut off my source of income.

Speaking to the philosophical issue that pg raised, I believe people have a right to attempt to make money from their efforts. I also believe that they most definitely do not have a right to be successful in that attempt, regardless of how much effort they have put in. They also do not have a right to continued success if the world around them changes. What works on Monday may not work on Friday, and the fact that it worked Monday should not serve as a guarantee that Friday's endeavor has a right to success. If the effort it takes to secure a number of the size required to represent a 3 minute song becomes a burden on society, then I do not think they have a right to be successful in doing so. The same goes for the software I produce. If my securing it from copying that I do not approve of becomes a burden on society, then I do not have a right to be successful in securing it. Personally, I interpret a circumvention of due process and an attitude of "guilty until a successful appeal is filed" as a burden on society.

<comment><USER20> This is the most salient explanation that I have seen on HN, although some points need rebutting. For instance

>If the effort it takes to secure a number of the size required to represent a 3 minute song becomes a burden on society, then I do not think they have a right to be successful in doing so.

That is only true _after_ the law has been changed, at least from a legal standpoint.

> If my securing it from copying that I do not approve of becomes a burden on > society, then I do not have a right to be successful in securing it.

Same as above.

Most responses on HN have been something like "if you want to make money from your creation you should use kickstarter and give it away after that". This is a very foolish attitude both realistically and philosophically. I have every right to use the current laws to my advantage and an obligation to my investors to do exactly that.

I have no problem with flouting laws if they are truly unjust, but I have no sympathy for piracy profiteers like Kim Dotcom because he knew very well what he was doing. Copying between friends can never be stopped but if you make enough money from it you are a valid target.

<comment><USER21> I would consider the law unjust once it crosses the line into being a burden on society. That's obviously not a black and white transition, although I gave part of what I consider to be over that line in my last response. From my perspective, SOPA, as proposed, was (is?) an unjust law, in that it meets the criteria I specified for what I consider a burden.

It's worth making the distinction between legal rights and natural rights. Obviously, if a particular draconian and unjust law were passed that guaranteed the right to secure your 3kb of data, then you have the legal right to do so. That fact has mostly no bearing on your natural right to do so.

It's also worth noting that sharing between friends and someone making a large profit off of sharing are not the only options. It is not hard to envision a situation with a large amount of sharing and no one profiting directly the way kim dotcom did. It has the scale of the profiteers, but the intent and profitability of the between-friends sharing. I think it is a lot harder to find someone worthy of being called a criminal in such a situation.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Of course they are. Isn't there a revolving door between the RIAA/MPAA and the DOJ?

</comment><comment><USER23> what are you going to do, vote republican instead?

<comment><USER12> Actually this issue is important enough for me that I would.

I'm curious who is going to run as the Republican candidate for Senator this year in California. Because if they manage to pick a relative moderate (like Meg Whitman, but not Carly Fiorina), I'll be voting Republican.

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> SOPA is simply the old-guard clutching at the side of the cliff for dear life as they, inevitably, plummet to their deaths.

Next subject.

<comment><USER25> Except they have a lot more resilience than the tech industry does and will eventually get something passed.

You can't stick your head in the sand and hope they go away.

<comment><USER26> The problem is that the tech industries are nice guys. We aren't prepared to play to win, we won't bribe politicians, blackmail them with pictures of their affairs when they won't take the bribes, have the law firms involved debared, have the CPS take their children. Spread rumors and destroy the friendships, connections and trusts the lobbiests depend on.

That we cannot comeup with such ideas are åroperly a good thing but it is also a pretty large handicap when we are up against people like the MPAA (who, granted may not be playing as dirty as these suggestions).

<comment><USER27> I hear Yahoo is getting pretty evil these days. Maybe they'd do the dirty deeds for us.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> Can HN have a moratorium on political submissions for just two months?

<comment><USER29> "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." \--Thomas Paine

<comment><USER28> "I object to teaching of slogans intended to befog the mind, of whatever kind they may be." ~Franz Boas

(Hmm, someone didn't like that quoteback. Okay, here's another one, from yours truly. "Gentlemen, I'm just as concerned as you are about those Redcoats overrunning our town! I just don't think my front yard is an adequate, let alone optimal, place to defend it.")</comment></comment></comment>


First look at India's 2nd-generation, USD $40 tablet - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-18581885 <comment><USER2> What are the differences needed to build a smartphone for the developing world markets?

In other words, what really sucks about smartphones in the developing world right now? Also note, that this is very likely to be different for different markets, and that the developing world is not one market, but many.

For one thing, I suspect that there are places where charging every week would be much better than charging every day. The device should also be designed as a standalone device, and it would also need to be backed by cloud infrastructure situated to create favorable latency and bandwidth for each market.

<comment><USER3> I, on the contrary, keep wondering who are the people for whom charging every day is much preferable to charging every week. Because most of the devices are obviously made for such people.

<comment><USER4> It's a question of the trade-offs to achieve that week of battery life. I have an extended battery for my phone which makes the phone bulky, but the battery lasts for nearly two days on a charge. If I were to significantly underclock the CPU and GPU, turn down the screen brightness, disable apps from running in the background, turn off GPS, keep data off, get an even bigger battery, etc., I could probably get a week of battery out of it, if not more. That would take away a lot from the experience though, and since I'm almost always near a power source, I'd rather keep the above features and charge every day. If you weren't, you might think that those tradeoffs were fair.

That's an interesting point that the parent post made - we probably shouldn't be thinking about these devices as just underclocked versions of first world devices. I think that you could design a positive user experience with all of the restrictions that I listed above (not ideal, but still positive), but it's not going to be achieved by disabling features of a super phone/tablet.

<comment><USER2> _> turn down the screen brightness_

Something like a Pixel-Qi screen would be beneficial in cloudless desert climates. An entirely reflective screen might be even better. City dwellers have no need to think about this, but there are many parts of the world where the outdoors aren't illuminated at night. If people are about after dark, they are likely to already have their own source of illumination with them.

A thicker, more robust form factor that's waterproof and buoyant might be beneficial for other climates. June through September is India's Monsoon season. That doesn't strike me as the friendliest climate for an iPhone.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Tl;dr: 20% Cheaper, double the processor speed, capacitative touch-screen, nifty built-in development environment, longer but still fairly sad battery life, and meshuggah old-school socialist distribution policies.

</comment><comment><USER5> In India probably even a $200 Nexus 7 is considered too expensive for most people, but I can't help but feel that in the long term they would be better served by at least a $100 tablet (like Novo7) with the latest version of Android (this one is still running Android 2.xx), and with a battery that can last at least 8 hours turned on, so the students can use it all day in class. Why bother making a tablet for students that lasts only 3 hours and is still pretty slow?

<comment><USER6> "The World Bank estimates that 41.6 percent of India's population lives below $1.25 per day and 75.6 percent live below $2 per day."

A $100 tablet is staggeringly beyond their reach. A $40 tablet that can be shared amongst several people might be doable.

<comment><USER5> Right. So you're saying that from their perspective even this kind of tablet is a big deal for them. I can understand that. The good news is that the hardware price for these kind of devices is dropping fast (at least by 30% per year), so in 2-3 years they should be getting pretty decent tablet for that price. If you look at what $500-$1000 PC's and the Internet have done for the more advanced countries, these very affordable tablets should do the same for the whole of India and other Asian or African countries.

<comment><USER6> I totally agree. Moore's Law equivalents mean that this technology is becoming more affordable very quickly.

<comment><USER7> With huge consequences for access to information and high quality teaching / learning materials

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The first tablet was a failure. It did not reach students, and the limited ones that eventually made to users had huge quality issues. I am not very hopeful of this version either, given the fact that it is promoted by India's notoriously corrupt bureaucracy.

</comment><comment><USER9> They have tracking enabled on the devices so that they know who's in possession of a given tablet at any time.

I understand that from an inventory control perspective, but I wonder the privacy concerns of the tracking implemented.

<comment><USER10> ...OLPC, Android "activation" etc.: very few wonder besides you. Most people aren't concerned, and that is the norm.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I reckon the Raspberry Pi is much more suitable than the tablet in the applications that he pointed out (C, C++).

Also, anyone knows how much the Indian government has subsidized the project so that they can sell at $40?

<comment><USER12> But the tablet enables the students to have hands on approach with a screen and input method. Raspberry Pi lacks in this respect.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> India is good at producing cheaper technologies(PSLv is an example) and this will create a way for future tablet technologies to be cheaper and affordable.

<comment><USER14> Its actually not that simple. All the areas in which India has produced innovation/breakthroughs under the aegis of a govt. agency have all been "special cases". For e.g India's atomic research programme comes under the Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) which was created specifically to avoid bureaucratic hassles (it should have ideally been under the Ministry of Science & Tech, but operates autonomously). It is this agency which provided the funding and direction and enabled the scientists to focus on R&D rather than the bureaucracy. The tablet project, on the other hand, seems to me like a publicity stunt.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Yes, let's spend more tax payer money, get more good will since the first attempt was such a grand success.

</comment><comment><USER16> because the first one was a runaway success right?</comment>