Ask HN: How do I earn money as a teenage programmer? - <AUTHOR> I'm having trouble working this out, because I have to earn money to pay for car insurance and such, but software companies are not willing to hire people my age for good reason. My resume is also limited because I have only built applications for a few businesses who I had previous connections with. I'm looking for advice for how to start freelancing, because that seems to be the most viable way, without a large resume to start. <comment><USER2> >but software companies are not willing to hire people my age for good reason

I doubt it. I've hired two 18 year olds to work remotely for me, one of whom does excellent quantitative analysis I've yet to see out of anyone I've employed with an advanced degree.

Companies are by and large very stupid. Don't devalue yourself or your skills.

Craigslist is decent.

One of the best things you can do is invest in a Github or open source portfolio where you demonstrate proficiency with various technologies, methods, and algorithms. It'll be easy for me (or other hiring managers) to look at it, ring you up, ask you questions to make sure you didn't fully steal all the work, and task you with some basic contract work to see if it's a good fit. Then we go from there.

I got a lot of recruiting requests after I contributed a pretty solid amount of documentation and debugging work towards Facebook's HipHop (now hhvm, sort of anyway) repository and project.

You won't get paid upfront, obviously, but consider it a good investment. Hiring managers are more increasingly wanting to see proof that you can do work, especially independently.

Good luck. And if you're handy with R-stats, quant work, machine learning, and maybe even some Python/shell programming (have an application that could use some freelance work), hit me up. Info in my bio.

<comment><USER3> Sure, but what if he's 16?

<comment><USER2> I don't care if he's 14.

<comment><USER4> Legality issues spring to mind.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Don't use UpWork or similar. The rates are low even for a teenager.

The best projects and rates are through your network.

Family friends, businesses your family uses like you mention.

So start asking around who needs a website or web application. Those will be your best gigs, projects and clients.

Look for ways to setup recurring revenue. Maybe a business needs a website offer to build them a basic website, maintenance, hosting, backups and updates for $99/mo set it up with Stripe or Paypal recurring payments. Increase the cost as pages grow. Offer to include once monthly limited updates, usually clients will only update a page every month or so but you can adjust pricing accordingly.

Or if you build a web application for a client offer a maintenance plan that includes hosting, maintenance, database backups, etc.

This podcast has some great information to start building your own products and apps.

Startupsfortherestofus.com

And like others have mentioned patio11 has tons of great info.

Good luck.

<comment><USER6> >Maybe a business needs a website offer to build them a basic website, maintenance, hosting, backups and updates for $99/mo set it up with Stripe or Paypal recurring payments.

I did this as a teenager and it ended up being a nightmare because you become a magnet for people who want thousands upon thousands of work done for no upfront cost and a low monthly fee. And it puts you in a terrible spot as you are strongly incentivized to say "Yes" to those people because you are desperate for the money and experience.

My recommendation would be to estimate and bill for the actual time put into those projects and have a fair hourly rate that reflects your knowledge and experience.

<comment><USER7> I agree. Never sign up clients on a monthly arrangement until you have a decent amount of IP available that is readily re-useable.

That way your value proposition for a monthly fee is that it effectively acts as an extended warranty, and saves the upfront costs for a client. But you need to be confident they will sign a term agreement (24+ months) and they need to be confident they can depend on you to fix things when/if they break over that long period of time.

I've seen plenty of scenarios where money has been left on the table for a client who was willing to pay upfront and the contractor did themselves out of a nice fat cheque by talking the client into a monthly arrangement (which just gives them a debtor issue).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I've been there while I was still in the first year of college of a 5 year MSc in CS course and needed some extra cash.

I started on Upwork with a very low rate (~$20/h) and applied to as many jobs as the platform allowed me to, with a custom cover letter for every single one. It was time intensive, but without any reviews it's your only way to stand out.

After I got my first project, I made sure that my client was blown away by everything: communication, turnaround time, code quality, etc. When I was sure the client was happy with the result, I asked him if he could leave me a review describing the process of working with me. By asking, you're letting him know that his review matters, and he'll probably put some extra effort instead of just writing something for the sake of it.

I kept (slowly) increasing my rate and continued sending custom proposals for clients. This is your advantage over all the low bids you can be sure they're getting.

After a few projects under my belt, I've built my personal portfolio, making sure Upwork reviews were there, along with a small description of the projects I completed. I've published my portfolio around in a few relevant websites and this has brought me client work directly to me a bunch of times.

After a while, you'll notice you're getting more proposals than you can handle, mostly uninteresting and low pay. That's when I've set my Upwork rate to something high enough that clients that weren't serious just wouldn't contact me.

I was 20 when I started doing this. I'm 23 now, with my MSc almost complete (just delivered my thesis this week) and a remote job working full-time at a startup with a great salary.

This is not a fool-proof plan, I may have gotten lucky here and there, but it is absolutely viable to do this without a resume. I've never had a resume to this day.

<comment><USER9> Can I ask what type of skills you recommend for upwork? I've done a lot of mobile and now I'm working in Unity and when I looked through Upwork I didn't see many opportunities.

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> I'm not sure how well this advice translates. I found my first job (as a teenager) by scouring craigslist. I sent my resume probably to 3 or 4 hundred companies over the course of a few weeks. Finally, I found one that didn't want a resume but wanted me to complete a project instead. I spent a few hours working on that, submitted it, and got called back -- they didn't care I was a teenager and paid me $23/hr on a contract. This was fantastic money, since the other places I was looking at were places like subway and best buy.

So again, not sure how well the advice translates to your area -- but try looking for places that ask for coding samples or projects instead of resumes.

</comment><comment><USER11> I am in a similar boat as you(a broke teenager) but I don't like freelancing that much. I tried a few websites and they mostly make you do uninteresting work at low rates which doesn't justify the time you put into it. Sure, you can do all of this for the sake of learning but remember time is limited. I don't study CS at college and I've done projects in freelancing websites which I regretted later. It affected my regular college work and in the end I felt like I didn't learn much from it nor did I earn a lot due to the low pay offered. I personally suggest you to try getting involved in some open source program or religiously do bug hunting for a specific company. If you are a student in a college, OWASP code sprint, GSoC, X.org EVoC,Mozilla winter of security are some programs to get involved in.

Also, unless this is your full time work, make sure you concentrate on other aspects of your acads. I lost out a lot in my regular college trying to freelance(gain experience) with little to show for at the end both money and projects wise. It's quite hard for me to find work locally as well as internationally now that I am about to graduate(non CS degree) and most of the companies are skeptical about hiring an Indian without a relevant degree to do work that matters. I want to work on low level stuff/networking and all I could find are web development profiles.

<comment><USER12> When I started my first development job I didn't even know how to write HTML, I came from writing Windows applications (MFC and Winforms) and AVR/Arduino. Over the past 10 years I've learned that there is actually quite a lot of interesting stuff to be done in web development land outside of UI/JavaScript. Right now I'm working for a company building a Docker/microservices framework, touching nearly every part of the modern software stack (UI, web APIs, networking, Linux, etc). For me being able to code professionally was far more important than being able to code the stuff I was interested in specifically at the time, and it's worked out very well for me.

<comment><USER11> I totally agree with this. Even I started with web development (backend though) and for a brief period tried to grok some JS frameworks. Took up jobs immaterial of the front end stack and started learning them on the fly. Played with Angular the most. Somehow later my quest for figuring out how a computer works bought me to operating systems and then to a lower level where I deal with assembly these days. I still understand I haven't gone down deep enough but I very much like the path I am pursuing and want to know how deep this rabbit hole goes. However, I wonder if I would be employable with all this knowledge except in some niche places which are absent in India.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Think longer-term. Don't over-focus on the money. Unless you're already living independently, you're in a privileged position wherein your expenses -- while still annoying, I'm sure -- are far lower than they will be at any other point in your life. You can take advantage of that by adjusting your priorities. Rather than having a primary goal of earning money, your primary goals should be building up your expertise, your portfolio of work, and (especially) your passion -- (since passion can carry you farther than just about anything else in life).

So, first and foremost, look for projects/companies/organisations where the work is both maximally interesting and maximally personally challenging. There's a lot of living-on-the-edge startups and NGOs that can't pay very much, but wouldn't care about your age if you've got the skills they need. The monthly Hacker News "who's hiring" threads are littered with such companies. The best hire I ever made was via a "who's hiring" post -- I had a scrappy but exciting startup, and was thrilled to find an incredibly talented developer who wanted to work on it at way below market rate. Took me almost a year to find out that he was 19. Really didn't matter, given his competence. He's now accumulating a co-founder's worth of equity, so hopefully the investment will ultimately pay off for him.

Tl;dr, here's your sort algorithm, in order of priority:

1\. They don't ask and/or care about your age. (You don't need that BS.)

2\. Company/organisation/product is something you actually feel quite passionate about.

3\. The role you'd be given is very challenging and would do a lot to develop your skills.

4\. Last and least: salary.

</comment><comment><USER14> I would recommend getting involved with Udacity as a classroom mentor/forum mentor/project reviewer. All you have to do is demonstrate enough domain experience for whichever course you want to help out in. You can do that by either completeing the course in stellar fashion or demonstrating your skills via a stellar personal project. For more info on it, you can check out my other comment from a couple of days ago: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14472353](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14472353)

<comment><USER15> On a similar note, maybe offer to teach programming during the summer. There may be parents who are willing to pay a bit so their kids can be exposed to programming, and being a kid yourself, you could create a fun and non threatening atmosphere. Plus, for kids, it's not so important that they learn exactly the most marketable languages and techniques, but just to expand their brains and tickle their interests.

Another idea is to tutor introductory college students. I made reasonable money in college as a math tutor, even as a freshman. The college had a tutoring center, who paid my wage, so I didn't have to deal with collecting money from my students.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I am in your position right now. Being 18 and working part time when having school / full time now because of summer break, and doing this since I've been 17.

My biggest advice: get involved into local meetups. Talk to people, try to make a good impression. Try to get friends with the organizers, so you can become a coorganizer eventually.

I'm getting a lot of job offers, but really, the only worth looking at, are those you get offered by other programmers you get to talk with.

Try to read a lot of development blog posts/be active on chats as this way you get knowledge to make up for your lack of experience when discussing technical topics.

EDIT: Addition: Nobody cares about your age if you can deliver.

<comment><USER17> One thing I'd add: be eager to find opportunities that aren't just money- makers but that help you move up, meet people who are better than you at what you do, and can help you grow.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> Don't let age get to you, my _best_ hire was someone who'd just graduated high school.

I was in the exact same situation as you a few years back. I started freelancing on my 19th birthday (literally) after finding out eLance existed. At the time, I had advanced HTML/CSS skills and could barely build a WordPress theme.

My first 2 projects on eLance were the worst. Effectively doing copy and paste work for what ended up being less than $5/hr. I did get some good reviews though. From there I actually got some good clients, some of which I still work with today. My focus was getting projects the final 20% of the way when hiring cheap work overseas didn't work out for them. Clients were more willing to hire a local (USA) contractor and at higher rates to solve their problem, remember this.

After about 6 months, I stopped using eLance. The model is skewed against high quality work and creates a race to the bottom pricing wise. I was able to find enough work to sustain me through local networking (Meetups are awesome) and a coworking space and I haven't looked back.

I'm 24 now, and I have grown a small freelance gig to my full time income. I have multiple Fortune 1000 companies relying on my services for their performance on search engines, and I have the luxury of working on projects/clients that are a good fit (rather than taking on bad clients because I need to).

My best recommendations: \- Focus on what problem you can solve for a business rather then what technologies you use (you're an artisan, not a tool). \- Network. Network. Network. This can be in-person or virtual. \- Don't focus on your age, clients care about your ability to get work done. \- Keep honing in /learning new skills that can make you better serve your clients more efficiently. \- Don't be afraid to ask for the sale, or to ask clients for referrals to others

If you'd like email me (in my bio) and i'd be more than happy to pass your resume along to some people in my network.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER19> All jobs are about convincing someone you are worth it. If you have good examples, that helps to convince them. If you are looking to improve your skills as much as make some cash, you can get some stuff for $15/hr. If you expect to get $50/hr from someone you need to be an "expert" in something or be able to convince them you are at least the perfect person for the job.

I have a bunch of side projects and had some college kids that were interested in a paid internship kind of thing. I spent time and money getting them set up and explaining the project, etc. They totally flaked out and just didn't follow through. You have to understand that time and energy is expended on the other side. I've always taken a "prove myself" perspective. "Yeah, I'll do a little work at $10/hr but then we need to reevaluate things based on my value". You aren't locked in to a bad contract and have the ability to move up. I'm sure there are people on here who will give you a chance, including me if you have any web experience.

<comment><USER20> You'll get to a point (with lots of hard work and good decisions) where selling yourself isn't the hard part of the job and you don't have to spend as much time and energy marketing yourself. Juggling time and projects and choosing who to work with and who not to and also finding time to study to get better is the tough part for me. And also having a life. You'll figure out how to manage your rates and increase them as your skills warrant, but if you're good people will hunt you down. You can only handle so many clients at a time as a sole proprietor though, so it's important to focus on the best clients and lose the duds. I only have 5 clients, but charge $135/hr. (I also have an MBA and lots of business experience) With that few clients, it's important to not let all your eggs end up in 1 basket, which is tricky sometimes since the client mostly determines the project timeframes.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I've started to work as a software developer when I was 16. My first job was a small programming job as a casual employee (20h/month) for a research institution (publicly funded) - it was for minimum wage and I hated it.

After 4-5 months, I've decided to become a freelancer and searched for contract work. I've never used Fiverr or other platforms and I'm convinced that neither should you, because this work will only lead you down the wage path where no one really values what you do.

Try to find small local software companies in the range 1-30 employees, go to local meet-ups for software developers (or even organize your own ones) and get to know those people who can give you a job. I'm currently 19yo and I'm meeting executives at my local chamber of commerce. It's not that hard. But first, you have to lose the attitude described in this sentence:

> software companies are not willing to hire people my age for good reason

This is simply not true. Maybe there are some, but not all. I've get paid the same amount of money as other freelance senior developers. They don't care about my age. They just care that

\- I can what I say

\- I can do what they need (I'm doing web applications & app development)

\- I do it professionally and communicate properly

Just go out, drink coffee with other software developers, tell them that you would love to have a meeting with their executives and you're ready to go.

Be confident in your skills (but never ever make the mistake of overestimating yourself), be calm, show your expertise and that you can and will do the job.

Connect with people, this is the most important part for freelancing work - every time you go out and eat something, go with some project managers who happen to be there, too.

Maybe this sounds too easy to be true, but this is what I did. And I'm sure you can do it, too.

<comment><USER22> I'm 23 and I also got my first programming job at 16. In my case it was pure luck - I was on a camping trip with a friend's family and they asked me if I knew how to program. I said yes and came in after the trip to start.

It's important to realize that everyone started with no professional experience. Someone will be willing to take the risk of a few dollars spent on time and/or labor to see if it works out. A bit of charisma, luck, and dedication goes a long way. I now have professional experience in project management, training, hiring, communicating effectively, database experience, etc. because I worked hard for the opportunities I've been given.

I think networking is excellent advice. It's not uncommon to be at a coffee shop or bar and talk shop with strangers and be offered work. Maybe that's because of my location but certainly it's a good way to find work. There have been plenty of times where I see someone working on software and I'll walk up to them and ask if they wouldn't mind talking about it for a few minutes. People are typically friendly and enjoy some discussion. It can go a long way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Unfortunately, unless you are lucky and have the connections and required social skills (e.g. you live in a place where engineers are respected and you know people who are not age-biased and to whom you can argument your value), the chances of finding well-paid work as a teenager are slim.

For self-taught programmers, before you find work with good pay, there seems to be a phase of self-validation. In a way, you have to pave your road somehow to demonstrate your value. For me, this meant freelancing for individuals and small businesses to gain work to which to refer to when later interviewing. I had done five of these gigs before landing a job opportunity which paid going rates for university graduates. Before that, I had worked three years and made the equivalent of two-month salary in my new job. I had been underpaid. My boss even implied that I had been a bargain, but working for under the minimum wage _besides studies_ was what it required to me to gain some experience.

After the aforementioned job experience, I turned my twenties and at the same time the "age discrimination" I had experienced before turned upside-down. To me, this seemed like I had reached the point of self-validation, after which I was seen as an equivalent of a university graduate.

So, if possible, do not give up because of the low pay as long as you are able to _learn_. In my opinion, investing in yourself when you are still young is one of the best investments one can do.

In a way, people here talk about product-market fit. To me, it seems like you as a freelancer have been able to a figure that out already by finding businesses which have ordered applications from you. I think that if you are able to continue whatever you are doing now and also learn new (to increase your social capital), have some fun (to avoid burnout) and to make some money (for ramen profitability or to justify your family that you are doing something of value on the computer) then you will eventually land the job opportunity by "chance" (recruiters) or then you are able to justify your skills once you apply to a job which interests you.

</comment><comment><USER24> I was in your shoes 10-15 years ago. Here's a few bits of advice:

* Upwork (well, Elance back then) worked out pretty well for me. The skill test are a nice way of showing that you can do the work without having much history.

* You don't have to tell everyone that you're a teen - don't lie about it, but don't shout it from the rooftops.

* As other folks have mentioned, a GitHub and/or personal website can help you.

* Create a couple of side projects - they don't have to be that original or full-featured, make a simple game or something. Just put something out there that you can point to and say "I built that".

I do some mentoring and also occasionally hire folks for contract work. Email is in my profile if you're interested in either.

</comment><comment><USER25> Keep checking in with your network for jobs they need that you can do. Present yourself well online (your portfolio and yourself). Expand your network.

Two previous threads about starting to freelance: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8761088](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8761088) [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14424699](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14424699)

I'd pick a technology to focus on, and present yourself as a person who specializes in it. Put your skills and work first and foremost online / on your resume. Choose something you can use quickly, and fully build the projects you have or are about to have. Whatever it is. Start with the HTML/CSS/basic JS. Or Wordpress, Drupal. Or React or Rails or Flask. Practice most for the job you have. Second most for the job you want.

Work with the businesses you built things for to be references, and if at all possible get a good looking project one to be publicly accessible. At least as a few screen shots. Clients want to see what you've done.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog)

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER26> I started working as a programmer the day I turned 16 in the early 90's, at $50/hr. Freelancing is a good idea... I would focus on small organizations, possibly non-profits. Learn about what organizations do and talk to people there about ideas you have and/or your ability to implement their ideas. Basically, you need to learn sales.

A few decades later I still rely on the approach I learned back then. While many of my peers have a mentality that they are at the mercy of the job market, and need people to create & define work for them, I can create customers wherever I meet people. I have a number of small business customers who would likely never have done development if I hadn't sought them out.

While this isn't the top way to earn a lot of money as a software developer, I continue to work heavily with small businesses because I like it, and because it eliminates a lot of the factors that others seem to dislike about a programming career. Regardless it's a great way to get your foot in the door... companies who can't afford $80,000 programmer salaries -- or the contract equivalent -- can't afford to be prejudiced against your youth and inexperience.

</comment><comment><USER27> Are you a kid in school? If so, I suggest approaching companies in your local community and specifically saying you want a job "for summer vacation". IMHO the biggest risk for an employer is getting stuck with someone that's no good and has to be fired later. By coming in as a freelancer, intern, or summer employee, you take that risk away. And given the desperate shortage of good IT people out there, if you prove yourself better than terrible you'll very likely be asked back.

I would not target "software companies" but rather ordinary companies that lack IT talent. Lots of businesses out there need simple edits to their web pages, or SQL queries from their ETL or CRM (systems they buy but don't know how to work with "under the hood"), and could use your h elp.

</comment><comment><USER28> Hey, I've got a bit of first hand experience here. Been doing professional work since ~15ish and had a handful of friends in similar situations.

1\. Use your age as a strategic advantage not a limiting factor.

Seriously, I wish I'd appreciated this a little more because it changes the day you graduate high school and become a college student. You have a unique ability to talk to just about anyone right now as a virtue of being young and curious. Reach out to people you admire, not specifically asking for work, but for mentorship and advice. The returns will be high. People in this industry love young ambitious developers.

2\. Get involved in the community.

All the work I got before college was through personal connections. Show up at hackathons (big one), go to technical meetups if there are ones in your area, get to know people on a personal level. Forget "networking" start making friends with other people in the field, you'll start getting calls about work.

3\. Code a ton

Seriously, open source, personal projects, whatever. Just improve as a developer. My first steady contributions were doing volunteer web development for a local non-profit and that kickstarted all the professional stuff I was able to do pre-college.

4\. Understand your value

Unless you're truly an outlier - you aren't going to be getting paid what a CS grad with 10 years experience is. That's just a reality of your experience level. That said I see way too many younger developers accept gross underpayment. Do not work for someone paying you $10/hour. Your time would be much better spent contributing to meaningful open source work.

5\. Get into the best school you can

A good CS program will be a game changer for you, or at least it was for me. Get the grades and exam scores you need to do that. A resume of relevant experience is also massively helpful.

Companies are much more interested in your skills than your age. Startups in particular are very willing to hire teenagers if they can see that you will provide value. Keep learning. If you want to chat more email me (in bio).

</comment><comment><USER29> Can only speak of 10-15 years ago - but if you know anyone who knows anyone at a (probably smaller) company in your area, that might work - an introduction can be enough to get a shot. I do think smaller companies are better for this than big ones, but ymmv. Also, meetups. But I guess they've in general changed a lot and I don't really too many really young people (who are not studying in college or similar already).

</comment><comment><USER30> I started doing programming at age of 16. I learned PHP then I posted in fiverr.com for freelance projects. I got many project through that and learn a lot

</comment><comment><USER31> If you're a student, Google Summer of Code is an option. It's bad timing because the application period is around March/April (so that the work period falls within the summer break), so it would only be something for next year, but I can highly recommend it.

The idea is that Google chooses several open-source projects for the program each year, and then students can apply to the projects with their own ideas (or by taking one of the ideas proposed by the project's contributors). The project chooses the best proposals, pairs the students with mentors, and has them work on the chosen topics for about 3 months. Reviews are submitted to Google at multiple times during that period, and the student is expected to both deliver code and engage in the project's community. Also, the student gets a nice payment from Google for each completed milestone. (I think it comes out at about 4000 dollars or so.)

So in the end, you have a small pile of money, some code to put in your portfolio, actual work experience, and the "Google Summer of Code" checkmark for your resume.

Disclaimer: I have served as a mentor for KDE in GSoC 2009.

</comment><comment><USER32> You got it relatively easy: I assume you don't have any good contacts on the business, which is the obvious first choice. You can find clients at upwork or some freelancing site. Prioritize portfolio building and long term projects/recurring clients over one time deals and money. After a trial period, if you are good and trustworthy enough, ditch upwork and start charging them what you are really worth. Obviously don't be a dick and be upfront about your intentions of charging them more when you prove them you are worth it. It is a lengthy process. You need to be reliable and smart, otherwise you will not find good clients and you'll be taken advantage of. I don't want to discourage you but if you aren't good enough yet and you need the money now you'll be better off working at mcdonalds or some other simple teenage job.

</comment><comment><USER33> Get on Upwork or similar sites and price low and deliver. You can up your rate as you earn reviews and a portfolio.

</comment><comment><USER34> I think most advice on how to start freelancing applies to you despite your age; it's just going to be a little harder for you than for a more experienced and/or older person. There's a ton of advice on this topic in previous discussions here. See [https://www.google.com/search?q=start+freelancing+site%3Anew...](https://www.google.com/search?q=start+freelancing+site%3Anews.ycombinator.com&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8). I think it's very doable though.

I'd also caution you not to focus on freelancing to the extent that it hurts your schoolwork. If you want to program as a career, graduating from a top 10 CS school will open a lot of doors for you, and I would make laying the groundwork for that your primary goal.

</comment><comment><USER35> I made a few thousand a year as a teenager in addition to a typical teenage job at a bagel store/CompUSA by leveraging family friends to build websites for their pet projects like a craft business or band website. You have to actively market yourself and constantly reach out via parents, but if you are persistent, you might find work. People will often think that a teenager is both cheap and capable (which they often are) so you might be able to get contracts that formal companies cannot. It takes a lot of practice to understand how to communicate with clients but you will get the benefit of the doubt as a young person.

</comment><comment><USER36> It isn't sexy but small businesses need help setting up websites and stuff like that. It's good experience both with programming and also working with people (which is usually the hardest part of any programming job).

</comment><comment><USER37> Would you care to put an email or other contact info in your profile, in case someone wants to reach out to you?

I see someone also mentioned Patrick (patio11), you would do very well to follow his advice. TONS of value in his stuff.

</comment><comment><USER38> I'm in Canada, we wouldn't discriminate based on your age (in fact I think it'd be illegal).

I'd say start contributing patches to open-source projects you like. You'll have to fork them, which will make your Github page less empty (but no one will be fooled into thinking they are yours), and you'll learn how the open- source world (and therefore some teams) works.

If you don't like any particular open-source projects, start finding some to like because it's a big part of the culture (unless you absolutely want a corporate soul-sucking job).

</comment><comment><USER39> If you are very good, you will get jobs, either hired or as a freelance.

So work on becoming very good. Choose a platform and a problem domain, and become very good at it.

I was in charge of a software development departament inside a company and i never took the ages of the applicants into account. Only their skills and how nice/approachable/good-humored they were. I got people ranging in age from 19 to about 34, no problem within the team.

In this business what matters is not how mature you look. What matters is to get the job done on time and keeping the customer happy.

Go for it!

</comment><comment><USER40> Start a blog, create a course or two for something like PluralSight or Lynda.

Check out Simple Programmer.

As others have said, this is more an investment than a direct payment... but it will pay off.

<comment><USER41> Sounds like he/she wants cold hard cash. But if an investment is on the table then writing some open source is a wonderful way to go. I wrote some and have a few hundred thousand downloads, a few million page views (for the manual) and it is amazing the sort of businesses that like that on a CV. It's opened up a lot of doors for me.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Freelancing is hard when you are doing it alone. Try to work with someone who can get projects. So you can just focus on delivery or vice versa. Check out triplebyte (yc startup). It is pretty difficult to get in though. Try to master just one skill.I used to look out for latest skills like elixir , go (when they were new). In your case , look for angular 4, kotlin, swift or elixir. Just pick one and keep at it.

All the Best.

</comment><comment><USER43> My school used this online grade management system and the students access to it was really bad and only showed the letter grade for each calss average. So I made a python app to manage all your grades and calculate the by scarping the online site using python. I sold the app and made some money so i don't know if you can do the same. Otherwise just keep learning and follow everyone else's advise.

</comment><comment><USER44> Open an account at freelancer.com and similars and see how the system works and what can you offer. It really works, though competition is high. This will help you build a portfolio and make money in the process.

Search for people problems and build an app to solve it. Apps are hot.

Github portfolios, open source projects, etc... may make you look important but it does not generate direct income. Try to avoid the ego trap there.

</comment><comment><USER45> I think freelancing is only one of the many awesome ways you can earn money and build your career as a developer :)

If you're interested in working with people, you can always apply to become a mentor on Codementor. If you earn some positive reviews, you'll gain a bit of credibility to help you work as a freelancer as well!

Keep programming and stay passionate!

</comment><comment><USER46> I personally have hired a young person on the apprenticeship scheme in the UK, hes great. Hes doing so well he is getting his qualification early and hes also doing very meaningful work for the company.

I dont know if thats an option in your country but people so hire younger coders, perhaps start approaching local companies that are smaller in size?

</comment><comment><USER47> Not sure of age requirements but maybe try bountysource is the only thing that comes to mind:

[https://www.bountysource.com/](https://www.bountysource.com/)

I've not used it, but seen projects I keep an eye on put down some good rewards (even users / companies do as well) so maybe worth checking out.

</comment><comment><USER48> Make open source contributions and establish yourself as someone whose code is trusted and accepted by your peers (the open source community). I don't mean to just publish your own open source project, but rather to be involved in other people's projects, specifically the ones that you plan to use for employment.

</comment><comment><USER49> Step 1: solve someone's problem

Step 2: collect money

The small business world is filled with unsolved problems. Get out there and find 'em.

</comment><comment><USER50> Look into making hacks for games or rotation bots using C#. Or go into advance HP/UI scanning for FPS. Bunch of teenage hackers charge $30-$60 a month for those services. Use [http://selly.gg](http://selly.gg) for setting up digital shops

</comment><comment><USER51> What type of stuff are you interested in ? I'm looking for people to help with mobile app dev and could consider remote applicants. Have a look: [http://getapony.com/job.html](http://getapony.com/job.html)

<comment><USER52> Not OP but am in a similar position. I had a look at your website and would love to help out with developing the Android app. I'm looking for 1-2 days a week while I'm a student, is this suitable? Once I finish my exams in a few weeks I can send you my CV. Also I'm in commutable distance to your Hatton Garden offices.

</comment></comment><comment> ely-s You mostly have a presentation problem if you have marketable skills that won't sell. I started when I was 15 and the trick was displaying confidence, humility, and maturity in every interaction. It's harder than it sounds.

</comment><comment><USER53> Search for patio11's posts. Also, develop a great website as part of a portfolio.

</comment><comment><USER54> It is possible to become very successful through freelance work - make sure you keep in touch with good contacts and try and move from the position of hire to business partner. Can be done, not easy

</comment><comment><USER55> Without a resume and being a teenager, I would probably do a couple of apps and get them in the app stores. It can get you some money and provides a nice opening line for freelance work.

</comment><comment><USER56> Not sure how well the market is doing now, but I made quite a bit of money (half of fulltime jr dev salary) doing freelance Minecraft development work off of forums like SpigotMC.

</comment><comment><USER57> What kind of work are you interested in? I have a few web apps that I'd like to get up and running if you want something that fits your schedule. My e-mail is in my profile.

</comment><comment><USER58> When I was in high school, my summer jobs included: lawnmowing, building construction, dishwashing, and being a gas-station attendant. It worked out just fine.

<comment><USER59> And so you're saying that because you did this work and he would like to do technical work that somehow he is wrong? What value are you bringing to this discussion for this young man?

<comment><USER58> > And so you're saying that because you did this work and he would like to do > technical work that somehow he is wrong?

No.

> What value are you bringing to this discussion for this young man?

My goal was to help him not feel stressed out if he has trouble finding this kind of work right away.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> join a tech meetup, ask to help someone out and pair program and if you're trusted they might give a few projects or tasks to you.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for all the responses! I've got quite a bit to sort through, so it may take me awhile to get back to you.

</comment><comment><USER61> Getting employed part-time at a normal company is still one of the viable options. How many did you try to ask?

</comment><comment><USER62> Try UpWork. In the past I have used UpWork to hire a programmer aged 19 or 20 and paid $23 per hour.

</comment><comment><USER63> I did freelancing at age 16, sometimes had to lie a little but elance (now upwork) is a good way.

</comment><comment><USER64> Keep programming fun and do a normal job. Imagine that you decide to pay for your car bills by working on some type of car garage place, either doing mechanics or serving customers. By being part of this business you will learn many skills that may not seem as important as the latest Tensorflow coolness, but are best learned now rather than later. Learn how to put the customer first, learn how to negotiate, learn how to survive being on your feet all day, take on responsibility, have great camaraderie with the team, learn how to be an entrepreneur, learn about how much effort a company has to put in to pay taxes, staff and suppliers.

Sure you will be too tired when you get home to do all that wonderful programming, but this is not a forever job, it is a job that gets you solid experience that may be more useful than you think.

For instance, imagine some fantastic Tesla gig comes to town. You want to be programming that centre console with some Tensorflow coolness. You are up against some other guy that wants to do the same. You just so happen to know how to sell a car because you have done it, you have also done it as part of a team and appreciate the nuances of it. Your idea of what shows on the centre console will be better than the other guys because you have seen how customers behave on the showroom floor. So for you it is not just a programming job, it is about customer satisfaction and the bigger dream.

I provide an automotive analogy here, I recommend any 'normal job' and that can be in retail or in factories or an office, it matters not. Specialist sales is true retail, stacking shelves or sitting at a till is not what you want.

Essentially all software is for someone or some industry, clearly there is 'plan9' exceptionalism, but the general deal is that software solves a real world problem. So you can do normal jobs in this real world, to therefore understand the world of the problems that the software is trying to solve. So if you work in retail and learn how to put the customer first, that will come in handy if you have to do online sales stuff. Will they want the guy that sat in the basement programming, or the guy that spent time hard at work learning the core thing the hard way? I suspect the latter.

With this strategy you can keep programming fun. By that I mean not patching some legacy system that needs a complete rewrite but that is organisationally impossible. It means not being micro-managed. Also, with 'normal' jobs, the hours may be long but you don't take your work home. With software there is none of that, it is as bad as studying for always having more one can do.

With a lot of normal work there is an aspect of where you are making the world a better place and making a difference. If you find your work is valued by customers or the local community then there is job satisfaction that is quite hard to find if sat behind a screen.

Every business has pinch points, these can often be automated by someone who can code. So in that apparently mundane factory you might see an opportunity to solve a problem or two, in code. It is for you to see these opportunities, however they are everywhere and you can develop a niche new product for your company, if you polish it beyond MVP you might be able to sell that across the sector. For instance, returning to the car analogy, you might find that a common problem in a particular dealership where a product puts you through a hoop or two more than needed. You could be bright and fresh to the problem and get it right for those too encultured in the old ways to see that better is possible. Having solved the problem for your original employer you could then put a 'v 2' version of your software out in a specialist marketplace, then learn how to support and sell a full commercial version of what you originally built. You can also do this whilst keeping the original normal day job. In making such a creative solution out of thin air you have got on with the job and not stood around waiting chicken and egg style for someone to hire you.

Regarding creativity, there is a lot to be said for getting programming gigs in fiercely competitive creative industries. Here technical talent can be hard to find, particularly those willing to cross the line of being actually creative. It is easy to hide in the programming world and to be a 'dunno' with creative decision making. But if you can straddle the both then there are plenty of non-technical types wanting to give you work.

</comment><comment><USER60> you're a teenager, so work at mcdonalds (for the money) and do code for free or work on a project that'll impress someone in an interview.

<comment><USER61> No no, in this time it is possible to normally get part-time programming job at a company. No need for MCD. (if you know coding of course).

<comment><USER60> yeah, possibly the report generation monkey or typo fixer could be a possibility.

<comment> UK-AL Lots of teenagers out their who are great at setting and customising wordpress for small businesses.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER65> Question: why the job?

Do you need to make money, or are you looking for a validating project to work on/experience? If so I have some other ideas but first things first

1\. Make sure you stay focused on grades and definitely do Computer Science/Computer Systems Engineering one or the other. Find a school that welcomes the geek like mentality. While I have heard Harvard and such has good Compsci programs, going to a geekier school might be helpful. For me, going to an Engineering school where 80% of the majors were engineers was kind of awesome, it was like everything was a programming club. If you are into that stuff it's fun. You will get a great education elsewhere, but not the same sense of community and experience. It's really fun.

So in the midst of everything, dont forget to make going to a good college a priority. Theres going to be lots of downvotes and explorations of whether college it worth it or not, but I say its worth it because of my following theme: the people

2\. Like many have said "oh I did that once at your age and worked for some mind numbing job somewhere etc"

Don't do that here are some ideas

3\. Do you live in a big city? If so, places like LA, Bay Area and NYC WILL hire you for projects if you go to the startup scene.

4\. In big cities there are hacker houses, reddit meetup groups etc dedicated to programmers. Find and do all of those things and begin to meet other people in your community who program. Going to a hacker house and meeting college kids doing the same thing as you will give you unprecedented advice, let you work on projects with them and you may get an internship to one of the companies they work with.

I dont' want this to sound like political networking stuff, I'm saying that in this field the quality of your work matters, but so do the people. Real programmers will be impressed with you and find places for you meeting them in person you would not be able to find elsehwere.

In San Francisco there are hacker houses dedicated to highschool dropouts starting companies and the little sister of the 17yr old female Russian now woman who started Wanelo I think was the one who started it. In big cities you will find open minded things like this. I would focus on finding communities like this ALONGSIDE your search but you may find these communities find you more venues for work/interesting projects for pay/stock options than you initially anticipated.

I dated a guy who by the time he was a freshman in college had worked for multiple startups because of his programming abilities. He grew up in Boston, his dad worked at Oracle and he went to things like MIT startup bootcamp. Sure he was well connected but also motivated, and in big cities like that you have access to things like that.

5\. Continue to beef up your github

For you, learn this lesson now, don't sell yourself short, every great aunt, manager, passerby on the street will want you to code their next unicorn app for them and say theyll pay you later once they "figure out the profit" stuff and its no uncommon for people in your position to get caught being overworked and underpaid on less than stellar ideas.

I would say your best bet is to find projects you like, dive into an area of expertise, VR, AI, compression, graphics, whatever you like and find people working on projects like that whether startups, bootcamps, hacker houses, etc and find those people and work with them and don't settle for working on anythign that youre not interested in and getting valuable learnign experience in.

This is why finding other people who can code is important, otherwise youll be treated as a gruntwork engineer doing data entry or writing someones "app"

6\. Finally,

7\. You can always make your own stuff opensource and host on a website, even if it doesn't make money. I would say at your age unless you really need the money to get buy and have to choose between working shifts at a restaurant or coding, to focus on your knowledge/interests and produce your own projects in areas you are interested in.

8\. Again, if money is not number one priority, you can also use community service as a venue. There are probably businesses in your community, clubs or charities at your school etc who could benefit from some development, and then you can not have to spend time on extracurriculars at school just to impress a college, and turn them into real world experience for you.

</comment><comment><USER66> As someone who started very early in his teenage years doing something similar to provide for his family and pay off family debt, I'd like to think my advice is at least somewhat relevant.

> software companies are not willing to hire people my age for good reason

First of all, many people have not been through this and are unable to relate. I'll tell you now, yes, as a teen, it will be incredibly difficult regardless of your capability, to have buy-in from the wallet holders of these companies. However, there are ways to mitigate this while not lying:

\- Differentiate yourself from your competition. Sure, everyone can code, sure everyone can talk and say they can deliver, that they're meticulous and detailed-oriented. Everyone sounds the same, so how do you sound different? Think about what's important to the business owner. Truly understand why they are pursuing a certain project. Most likely, someone didn't just dream up a project and decide to dump money into it; it's an investment, they want to gain something from this effort. Speak to their hopes, address their fears, and demonstrate an understanding of their business. This insight is sorely lacking in our industry, especially amongst developers who are often too stuck in the mental map of their software architecture, and miss the bigger picture.

\- Do not draw attention to your age. I don't want to get in your head that older people, business people have a prejudice against you simply because of age. But it's there, it's incredibly noticeable, and invites questions. Sure, most people will not take issue with your age, but subconsciously, all sorts of questions arrive in their heads. Trust me when I say there is little you can do to ease most of these concerns, no matter how reputable you are, how amazing your past work has been, or how mature you seem. The answer is simple: don't make mention of your age or anything that may indicate you're a teenager. If possible, avoid phone calls and in-person meets; be sure to mention early on that email communication is preferred, and that you are more accessible via email. Over time, if people notice you are more responsive via email, that's how they will reach out to you.

\- If they're not going to buy, they're not going to buy, learn to accept it. You will invariably face a lot of rejections, and it may be because of your age, it may not. Either way, accept it and move on. If someone tries to lowball you "because you lack experience", "you're too young", you do not need to beg and chase them to "give you a chance". Don't start off on the wrong foot, it'll cause more headaches than it's worth.

\- Avoid bidding sites. It's a rat race to the bottom. You're at the whim of these sites, and whenever they feel like it, they'll increase their cut while offering you nothing more of value (see: Upwork changing their fees from 10% to 20%). If you absolutely have/want to, charge your standard rate, don't lowball just so you can get contracts.

That said, all of this is assuming that you have a lot to offer and are good at what you do. Focus on your personal growth and learning, try to take projects that further that mission, and focus on providing value.

Good luck!

</comment><comment><USER67> What languages and platforms do you know?

</comment><comment><USER68> The most honest answer is you don't. Unless you are a legit genius-level developer, in which case you wouldn't be posting this question on here.

<comment><USER69> This may sound mean but truth of the matter is - a lot of people think they're way better than they really are.

I wouldn't trust most working developers I've worked with to be able to deliver me something decent from start to finish, alone.

That's why companies have BAs, managers, testers, etc. Because doing it solo is a rare feat, unless we're talking gluing a wordpress theme together, in which case I'd recommend they look into squarespace :)

<comment><USER70>
       I wouldn't trust most working developers I've worked with to be able to deliver me something decent from start to finish, alone.

I have the same feeling for a lot of my CS university peers but yeah like you implied being on its own is a different situation

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> Big companies work like mafia.</comment>


Mounting evidence for Covid-19 treatments - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@andrewt3000/covid-19-and-hypoxemia-697bc8a19bae <comment><USER2> Does this mean that the main course of treatment is a blood transfusion? Or can you take medication to clear out the blood?

<comment><AUTHOR> @yishan is suggesting to try blood transfusions as a treatment but also as a way to see if that is the problem. The conventional wisdom is that people are dying from pneumonia/ADSR. Not hypoxia.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> This was really interesting! Would be interesting to see how this interacts with hemochromatosis.</comment>


Show HN: InstaPDF - Go Paperless (iOS,Mac) - <AUTHOR> https://instapdf.com/?src=hn <comment><USER2> This doesn't seem to use device native cloud storage (ie iCloud on macOS/iOS).

Why?

This is more of a general thing, but you're doing it too - why do app developers feel this need to store data in their own secret squirrel cloud system that the user has zero reason to trust.

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> I've been working on InstaPDF for the last 7 years. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.</comment>


iPad disabled for 25,536,442 minutes - <AUTHOR> https://twitter.com/eosnos/status/1114651667214032896 <comment><USER2> I fon't understand how can you get there if you shouldn't be allowed to enter another try in the previous attempt, with a lower countdown.</comment>


The Algebra of Data and the Calculus of Mutation - <AUTHOR> http://blog.lab49.com/archives/3011

<comment><USER2> I didn't get the + operation on types until he compared it to C's union. I don't know why he didn't appeal to the logical operations "and" and "or" for * and +, because that's what finally made them click and be consistent for me. For example, you can read int * int as "A type with an int _and_ an int," and you can read int + int as "A type with an int on the left _or_ an int on the right."

The links to the papers by Conor McBride are broken, but you can find them here: <http://strictlypositive.org/publications.html>

<comment><USER3> Yeah it's definitely helpful to think of it that way.

I usually relate it to sets. Types are sets of possible objects, "+" indicates set-based union, and "*" is just the Cartesian product of the types.

<comment><USER4> "+" isn't set union. If it was, int+int would just be int. The extra tag distinguishes it. Raw unions in C _are_ like set union though.

<comment><USER3> Right, it's a tagged union. I mean conceptually. You still end up with the same domain of objects as a union. The tag just tells you which domain you're object is in. (Or which side rather, since the domains can intersect.)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> This is a great explanation of algebraic datatypes!

The notion of one-hole context, its connection to differentiation, and its application to zippers is really interesting stuff. Another (much more detailed) discussion of it can be found here: <http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Zippers>

<comment><USER6> Agreed, the "if this looks like a derivative it's because it is" punchline made my jaw drop. I <i>never</i> expected to see calculus show up when discussing ADT's and mutation.

The notion is so contrary to the way I'm used to thinking about programming and yet so appropriate given that mutation is change and a derivative describes the rate of change.

I want some more!

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Further explanations on the "Mu" thing and its relation with catamorphism[0](a fold[1] that works on every datatype): [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4434292/catamorphism- and-...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4434292/catamorphism-and-tree- traversing-in-haskell/4435137#4435137) and [http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/publications/acmmp...](http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/jeremy.gibbons/publications/acmmpc- calcfp.pdf)

[0]: <https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Catamorphism>

[1]: [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fold_%28highe...](https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fold_%28higher- order_function%29)</comment>


Forget Netflix: Inside the Forums Where People Share Obscure Pirated Movies - <AUTHOR> https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/zmd4ea/forget-netflix-inside-the-forums-where-people-share-obscure-pirated-movies <comment><USER2> some "pirates" have an ethical base.

1] dont claim it as yours, someone else made it make that obvious.

2] dont sell it ! nuff said!

3} if its valuable to you find it and buy it at some time.

4] recommend a legal source along with any links you provide.

5] dont distribute cammed resources, give box office its rightful opportunity to make money, wait until the disk version is being sold, bare minimum.</comment>


Zero Knowledge Secure File Transfer - <AUTHOR> https://dropsecure.com/ <comment><USER2> "patent pending algorithm" \+ "real-time military grade encryption" \+ misused "Zero knowledge" => smells like snake oil security.

Even more since it is not opensource.

If you need to quickly transfer files between hosts, maybe consider Piknik instead: [https://github.com/jedisct1/piknik](https://github.com/jedisct1/piknik)

<comment><USER3> Thanks for the feedback. It is not open source yet, but you can look at the js source if interested. It is where all the encryption and decryption is taking place.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Can we stop with the military grade encryption, it's not even post-quantum with all the TLS shit going on...

We really have to fix this CA problem as right now we're all head deep in the sand thinking we can trust the network: we can't.

<comment><USER3> Can you please elaborate issues with TLS? Its been broken/hacked into that's for sure. I understand your frustration with marketing buzz words, and we are trying our best to convey the positives of our system. There are too many consumers who can't identify the difference between SSL and end-to-end encryption and we need to convey to them we are over and beyond SSL. Thanks for feedback though and these does gives us ideas to improve our content.

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> Wait...so they decrypt the files before downloading. So this isn't secure file transfer at all.

<comment><USER3> To explain it more clearly all your data is encrypted before it goes on the wire and not a single bit is decrypted until we verify your email link. All the encryption/decryption is done using AES-256. Files are decrypted locally on your browser when you click on the download button. Our servers are totally unaware of this and they only stream encrypted files at all times. This is just the beginnings, we are working on more features and also improving our documentation/content. Appreciate your feedback.</comment></comment>


Woman treated by doctors after her blood turned blue - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/19/woman-navy-blue-blood-rhode-island-hospital <comment><USER2> I wonder what goes through the minds of the guardian's editors when they write titles like this. "Woman treated by doctors" isn't a story. One hopes that _everyone_ whose blood turns blue would be treated by doctors.

<comment><USER3> I think you're misinterpreting the very classic style in which headlines are written.

Subject, Action, important qualifiers.

<comment><USER2> "Woman's blood turns blue after benzocaine ingestion" is the story. Being treated by doctors is not.

<comment><USER4> But then I wouldn't need to read the article to answer the question that pops up into my head.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Alternatively...alien anthropologist/spy/fugitive/tourist/etc's disguise technology partly fails, revealing non-human blood. MiB neuralyzes witnesses and plants the methemoglobinemia story.

</comment><comment><USER6> I'm a medical toxicologist, I'm surprised this tiny case report got picked up by The Guardian, and that it got on the hacker news front page, it's bread and butter stuff. Sulfhemoglobin is actually even less dangerous than methemoglobin, since it shifts the oxygen-hemoglobin dissociation curve right. We all have low levels of methemoglobin produced in our own bodies, but it can increase from certain exposures. Symptoms are usually very mild, but rarely it can become severe. It's typically treated with methylene blue, if treated at all. If anyone has questions for me, I'll check back later in the day.

</comment><comment><USER7> I was surprised to hear that not only is there a known treatment ("methylene blue"[0]) for the condition , but that a smallish hospital like Miriam actually had some on hand.

The wiki page explains that "methylene blue" actually treats a variety of problems.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylene_blue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylene_blue)

<comment><USER8> If they didn't have it on hand they could go down to the local Walmart, I've used it many times to treat my fish with ich.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm assuming this is methemoglobinemia or something analogous to that. It's usually a congenital disease or one that develops because of medications. The two meds I can think of that would cause this are dapsone and benzocaine. It's an easily treatable disease where we have the patient take methylene blue, cool but not worrying with proper treatment.

<comment><USER10> Either you know what you are talking about or read the article, as that is spot on

<comment><USER11> It's probably the only thing that causes your blood to turn blue, usually from numbing medication haha. Skin looks blue too, but patients are generally totally fine.

<comment><USER12> Your tissues can turn blue from excess silver:

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria)

But that probably doesn't affect the blood.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Is it bad to have blue blood ? I think it could be kind of novel if it didn't have any nasty side effects.

<comment><USER14> He article mentions that the hemoglobin variant which is blue doesn't release oxygen well. This would be bad.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> The substance benzocaine is in certain soar throat pills.

</comment><comment><USER16> when a case is surprising enough to make it to the main news, isn't it by definition so rare and unlikely it's not really worth thinking about?

<comment><USER17> More importantly, is HN the right venue to share this?

<comment><USER18> I find it interesting, in fact blood can turn green as well, without being an alien:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfhemoglobinemia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfhemoglobinemia)

> Sulfhemoglobinemia is a rare condition in which there is excess > sulfhemoglobin (SulfHb) in the blood. The pigment is a greenish derivative > of hemoglobin which cannot be converted back to normal, functional > hemoglobin. It causes cyanosis even at low blood levels.

>It is a rare blood condition that occurs when a sulfur atom is incorporated into the hemoglobin molecule. When hydrogen sulfide (H2S) (or sulfide ions) and ferric ions combine in the blood, the blood is incapable of carrying oxygen.

<comment><USER19> Indeed, this is why hydrogen sulfide is toxic in smallish doses</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Dongle-killing MacBook Pro hub raises $1M to add what Apple courageously removed - <AUTHOR> http://bgr.com/2017/01/03/macbook-pro-usb-c-adapter-hyperdrive/ <comment><USER2> What's funny is it still does not have a 1000BaseT port. I don't care how good your WiFi is, it's not going to copy files at 980Mbps and solid <1ms latency to hosts on the same local subnet.

<comment><USER3> Yep, I had exactly the same thought. Is that some kind of generational difference that everyone seems to think WiFi ist just fine now? Aren't there still tons of corporate networks around that don't allow it?

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Oh boy, this immediately reminded me of a Kickstarter from 2013 -- the Zendock. It only raised 100K but that was decent for a KS back then. The creator tried but eventually couldn't finish the job before the money ran out. Unlike other failed projects in which backers have accepted failure, this one is, 4 years later, still attracting vitriol on a weekly, even daily basis: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coleflournoy/zendock- th...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coleflournoy/zendock-the-best- dock-for-your-macbook/comments)

This "dongle-killer" is a different beast...but I've found that these kind of hardware campaigns rarely go well. It's not just the inevitable missing of deadlines, but the non-guarantee that the creator will get the details right, everything from polish to MFi (when it comes to Apple's mobile devices), never mind long term durability.

It helps that this campaign is from a creator with experience in actually delivering. But when I read the comments from their most recent million-dollar campaign, I don't feel I could trust them to execute well on this [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hypershop/isticktm- usb-...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hypershop/isticktm-usb-flash- drive-with-lightning-for-iphone/comments)

<comment><USER5> Same. I'd never trust Kickstarter for anything worth over 10$

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Clicked this link on mobile. Immediately got a full screen uncloseable ad insisting I have a virus. This domain should be permanently banned from HN.

</comment><comment><USER7> "courageously" ? I'd personally use "boldly" as I really cannot see what courage has to do with this.

<comment><USER8> "Courage" is a reference to Apple executive Phil Schiller's use of that word to describe Apple's removal of the headphone jack from the iPhone 7 last Fall.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'd be really scared of the lever this creates. Imagine lifting the laptop tha grapping the lower part of the adapter on one side or having a book in the way when you put it down.

</comment><comment><USER10> Does apple make a profit from these adapters? I know they were a key developer of the usb 3.1 c spec and I imagine they probably have several patents on it.

</comment><comment><USER11> Hilarious</comment>


Coronavirus: Most infections spread by people yet to show symptoms - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/mar/12/coronavirus-most-infections-spread-by-people-yet-to-show-symptoms-scientists <comment><AUTHOR> Underlying paper: [https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031815v...](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.05.20031815v1)</comment>


A fast and powerful blog system powed by laravel 5.3 - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/lufficc/laravel-blog <comment><USER2> Hi i would recommend pimcore over laravel. like [http://blog.codesupport.info/category/cms/pimcore/](http://blog.codesupport.info/category/cms/pimcore/)</comment>


Silicon quantum processor with robust long-distance qubit couplings - happy-go-lucky https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-00378-x <comment><USER2> The use of the phosphorus donor is interesting. I haven't read it through totally, but it reminded me of this hypothesis: [https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-spin-on-the-quantum- bra...](https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-spin-on-the-quantum- brain-20161102/)

The other thing that I didn't see is a mention of the temperature, although I presume it may be around room temperature based of previous work with donor- spin qubits.

Also note that this isn't an experimental demonstration, this is a theoretical treatment with simulations. Nothing wrong with that, but there was a lot of brouhaha over non-Abelian anyons for topological quantum computing a bit back, but those weren't experimentally demonstrated to even exist. Now, to be fair, these are concrete simulations and are definitely different from the non- Abelian anyon situation because they don't require the existence of particles which haven't been experimentally demonstrated, and IIRC spin-donor qubits have been demonstrated before experimentally, but do know that there can be unexpected pitfalls. For example, in theory QAHE state materials should exhibit no backscatter theoretically, but experimental measurements instead suggest that there _is_ a small amount of backscatter, although the mechanism remains unknown.

Nonetheless, hopefully exotic physics in conventional materials can push forward EE devices in the future!

</comment><comment><USER3> This paper has made me significantly increase my estimate of the urgency of moving to post-quantum crypto algorithms. Which really pisses me off because I spent a long time learning about elliptic curves, and soon all that knowledge will be useless. Damn those physicists.

<comment><USER4> You'll just have to upgrade to supersingular elliptic curve isogenies! [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post- quantum_cryptography#Supe...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post- quantum_cryptography#Supersingular_elliptic_curve_isogeny_cryptography)

<comment><USER3> Cool, but do they work for signatures?

<comment><USER4> No idea if there are production-ready implementations, but in theory, yes. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersingular_isogeny_key_exch...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersingular_isogeny_key_exchange#Similar_systems.2C_signatures.2C_and_uses)

<comment><USER5> Microsoft seems to have a github repo with the algorithm.

[https://github.com/Microsoft/PQCrypto- SIDH](https://github.com/Microsoft/PQCrypto-SIDH)

<comment><USER6> That's still the key exchange code, and not the signature. Microsoft hasn't released any code related to the SDVS extended by SIDH papers linked to the Wikipedia page, because the papers aren't by Microsoft.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Could I Get the " Explain it like I am 5 TL;DR of this "

<comment><USER8> The researchers invented a way to construct quantum computers that is both less prone to noise (that limits the computer size), easier to set and measure, and easier to manufacture when compared to the state of the art.

They didn't build such structure in practice, but got some very comprehensive simulations.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> It wasn't clear to me from the abstract, does this allow a complete CPU to be constructed using industry standard tools, or are there still some special or non-scalable steps required?

Will the 4004-Q be ready in time for the 2019 holiday shopping season?

<comment><USER10> A layman's explanation in the press release:

[https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/flip-flop- qub...](https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/flip-flop-qubits- radical-new-quantum-computing-design-invented)

Edit: Also being backed by a new company: "Silicon Quantum Computing Pty Ltd".

[https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science- tech/australia%E2%...](https://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science- tech/australia%E2%80%99s-first-quantum-computing-company-launches-unsw)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Sweet! In 18-24 months "quantum computing" will be the new hotness in tech. We've reached peak "Machine Learning" and "Autonomous Vehicles" are yesterday's news. Get in on the ground floor of the next wave of VC handouts! Hit Buck's and casually mention within earshot of the nearest tables that you're working on a quantum block chain project that will revolutionize programatic ad delivery but you're forgoing the hassle and red tape of traditional venture funding and planning your ICO in a couple of weeks - <AUTHOR> then place bets on which will hit your table first, a term sheet or the lunch bill.</comment>


My video with 47M views was stolen on YouTube [video] - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4AeoAWGJBw <comment><USER2> I do admire just how perverse YouTube's solution for copyright law is. If they were accepting DMCA notices, they'd have the obligation to take note of counter-notices. If they were giving _control_ of claimed videos to the claimants, then if someone filed a false claim against you, taking control of your video, _you_ could then file a DMCA notice against the claimaint. But YouTube does neither of these things. Instead, they leave the video in your ostensible control, and just decide to give advertising revenue to someone who isn't you – which, as far as I can tell, doesn't mean that either YouTube or the claimant is technically infringing your copyright. It's brilliant bastardy.

<comment><USER3> But YouTube does accept DMCA claims, of course, as it's required by law. Their Content ID system provides an automated way to detect potential infringement by large copyright holders and redirect ad revenue to them, but if uploaders dispute the claim and appeal decision to uphold the claim, then the copyright holder is required to send a full DMCA claim to take down the video, and the uploader can respond with a counter notice to put the video back up. Of course, the copyright holder can choose to jump ahead to filing a DMCA notice at any point, bypassing some or all of the Content ID process. I'm guessing that most wouldn't do that, though, because the DMCA process is not automated, has strict timelines built in, and only allows for takedown (whereas Content ID allows for videos to stay up but make ad revenue for them). Without Content ID system, I'm guessing we'd be back in the days where the big copyright holders would just spam DMCA notices and end up with a lot more videos taken down.

 _(Disclaimer: I used to work in the media business so I 'm familiar with the process)._

<comment><USER4> > if uploaders dispute the claim and appeal decision to uphold the claim, then > the copyright holder is required to send a full DMCA

I have heard that the dispute process uses dark patterns to punish uploaders for actually using it -- e.g. you must select between reasons for your dispute, none of which is "the claimed material isn't actually present."

Is this true?

<comment><USER3> Looking at copyright claims I have on my channel (these are valid music claims, for what it's worth), I see a dispute option labeled "The video is my original content and I own all of the rights to it", which I think covers the case you're describing.

<comment><USER5> That's not quite the same thing. For example, a work may be public domain, in which case it is not your original content, but nobody else owns the rights to it either.

<comment><USER4> Yes, and if there is official lawyerly language about certifying the truth of your choices, the distinction is important. Sounds like a dark pattern.

<comment><USER3> There's a different option for if the video is public domain or otherwise not copyrightable to handle this case. I assume that that "lawyerly language" is to dissuade users from abusing the process and choosing an option when it's not really true.

<comment><USER4> Nearly every video is going to be an amalgamation of original content, licensed work, and public domain work, yet the listed alternatives you've presented both clearly apply to entire videos, forcing the content creator to lie if they want to go forward with a dispute.

It seems quite bonkers that you disagree with the "disputes are discouraged by forced lying" narrative yet keep posting evidence to support it.

Ah well. It's not my fight. I should be grateful for that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> YouTube's approach to takedowns is, simply put, appalling. I'm not just referring to the automated Content ID system, which has a vast catalog of false identification, but am talking about the manual, human confirmation of takedowns.

My 'favourite' (in the sense of most egregious) example of what I am talking about is the case where YouTube's Content ID flagged the sound of birds in someone's garden as being copyright infringing [1]. So far, par the course for a mistaken automatic identification. But the outrage comes after that: the copyright claimant (the notorious Rumblefish) reviewed the claim and confirmed that it was valid! In other words an actual human being looked at the video of someone in their garden, and confirmed the claim that the sound of the birds in the background was copyrighted. Actions like this are indefensible and highlight the outrageous monstrosity of YouTube's takedown system - -beyond Kafkaesque in its total disenfranchisement of users.

[1] [https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120227/00152917884/guy-g...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120227/00152917884/guy- gets-bogus-youtube-copyright-claim-birds-singing-background.shtml)

<comment><USER7> Similarly, a friend of mine recorded waves crashing at a sea and it got flagged by Content ID.

Some music video (by Sony subsidiary) contained a small sample of waves crashing from a completely different sea.

I told him to appeal and appeal he did and yes the claim was upheld.

I told him to fight on because this first level upheld is what throws people off and what the Content ID abusers are hoping for.

On the 2nd appeal they have to have someone with legal authority to really pursue the claim.

That is no "real" human will look at the case on its merits until 2nd instance.

<comment><USER6> Wow! How did this story end?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I filed a likeness claim where Youtube created a profile with a picture of me somehow and there was no way to delete it. The takedown request was rejected because they said the video was invalid, despite it not being a video and it being explained that it was a profile and Youtube itself had taken property that wasn't theirs. Eventually I found some email address I could file a complaint against with a picture of my DL and they took it down.

It seems like companies have their 99% cases that their systems are optimized for, but within the remaining 1% where they themselves are causing the problem or have a bug etc. the humans they hire can't understand simple things if they deviate an iota from what they're used to.

</comment><comment><USER9> I absolutely love the level-headedness and honesty of this person. If I were in his shoes, I can only imagine how furious I would be at YouTube.

I hope this system can be fixed... At least, we need a more balanced playing field. Making it so easy and yet having practically no consequences to abuse the system is absurd. But, what can really be done? This is the system that various industries have been pushing super hard to get. I think DMCA also doesn't do nearly enough to dissuade abuse. Can we try to fix DMCA, too? Where do we begin?

</comment><comment><USER10> It's great that YT did the right thing by giving him ownership back on their platform. The next thing would be to give him any money earned during the time it was wrongfully taken away and in dispute. That should not be dependent on having the asshats paying it back first. YT messed up, so they need to make it right all the way.

<comment><USER11> Where did you find that YouTube has returned ownership to him? As far as I've been able to find with a quick search, the false claimant continues to receive monetization from the video.

<comment><USER12> The comment on the video by the author of the video

> UPDATE: It's official! I got my video back and Ramjets channel was deleted > for false copyright claim. Huge thanks to everybody who helped. Every share, > like comment, everybody who spread the word about what happened. You made > the difference. Now let's make sure we protect EVERY content creator from > false claims. Please sign the petition, we can make a difference.

<comment><USER13> > Please sign the petition

[https://secure.avaaz.org/en/community_petitions/YouTube_fix_...](https://secure.avaaz.org/en/community_petitions/YouTube_fix_the_copyright_protection_system)

<comment><USER14> Not trying to be cynical, but do petitions really do anything?

<comment><USER15> [https://www.change.org/p/mike-morhaime-legacy-server- among-w...](https://www.change.org/p/mike-morhaime-legacy-server-among-world- of-warcraft-community)

There's also a story behind how the signatures were delivered. [1] However, I'm not sure that this video explains the 'psychology' behind it.

In a wow-related podcast a few months back [sorry no link], Mark said that he wanted to deliver all the signatures in physical form on paper since that's a tactic that Blizzard itself had employed when selling their game packages back in the day. In a nutshell, _the weight_ of something makes it feel more valuable. And in the case of 260,000 signatures, it doesn't just sound big in your head, but actually has a substantial weight in physical form.

[1]: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS4g2rkZwLI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS4g2rkZwLI)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Moderation is really the ultimate scalability problem. I have some level of sympathy for the predicament YouTube is in, but I really hope the system can be redesigned.

I've never seen (keyword: seen) a press release or article about how an individual / group of DMCA abusers of this sort was arrested. Why can't this be taken more seriously as a form of fraud, and why can't these people be gone after? Sure, you can obfuscate your real IP when making a takedown request, but they have to receive the money somewhere.

<comment><USER10> The easiest thing to do would require the claimant and defendant to produce proof of ownership. In this case, it really seems like the claimant's case would have been over as soon as the defendant produced his proof.

If there is conflicting claims of ownership that seems valid from both sides, then send to a 3rd party to decide. Whether that is arbitration or courts. Why should YouTube be responsible at all? During the term of dispute, the ability to earn money is suspended. If the defendant wins, then the claimant should be required to reimburse lost earnings. At this point, YT would have acted in a reasonable manner such that they should not have any liability in it.

How naive am I being for making it seem like a really simple thing to handle?

<comment><USER17> Proof of ownership seems complicated to produce if you're a regular person uploading your own videos. What would you produce?

<comment><USER18> There are plenty of timestamping services out there, both blockchain-based and otherwise. If a video creator timestamps their video as soon as they create, and before they upload it, it could prove definitively these kinds of fraudulent claims.

Also, these services are usually reasonably priced, and sometimes even free, so it would be reasonable to use even if you're making several videos a day.

<comment><USER19> > If a video creator timestamps their video as soon as they create, and before > they upload it, it could prove definitively these kinds of fraudulent > claims.

The immediate issue I see here is timestamping other people's videos who produced them in the past, or for a different service, or just plain old didn't know they needed to timestamp their video to protect it.

<comment><USER18> If you're goal is only to prove that you invented something before some random patent troll did, then that issue doesn't matter so much.

At the least, it's very, very strong evidence for a trial. Along with also emailing your lawyer or notary public a copy of the timestamp as soon as you create it, these factors would be virtually unassailable in a court of law.

<comment><USER19> What's stopping me timestamping a tonne of other people's content before they do, and then claiming that they stole it from me?

Then we're literally back where we started - proving ownership by other means.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> It's unfortunate but that's the reality of centralized content and product platforms (YouTube, Amazon, AppStore etc) - they are often used to squiz out competition using bogus claims, as much as allow for distribution channels.

Better strategy is to continue supporting open web and host content or products you care about on your own.

</comment><comment><USER21> Just asking, but didn't the company falsely accusing him of copyright infringement slander him? The damage can be shown in the money he lost out on, but I mean I guess his reputation is also damaged with Google by the accusation. It was definitely a realistic accusation that someone might believe as Google evidently believed it.

<comment><USER22> > _" Just asking, but didn't the company falsely accusing him of copyright > infringement slander him?"_

Probably, but who is he supposed to sue over it? It's far from clear who the 'company' is. He could sue John Doe and then get youtube to reveal what they know, but he may very likely discover that the 'company' is just some guy with hardly any assets in a country that doesn't give a shit about him or his plight.

<comment><USER21> Maybe, but I guess the guy has some assets now.

I mean if it is a guy with hardly any assets in a country that doesn't give a shit I don't think that suit will drag on that long and probably wouldn't be too expensive to litigate. It's only if the guy has assets in a country that does give a shit that will want to fight, and if that's the case they're probably screwed.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Does anyone think ramjets is going around doing this with multiple videos and making thousands of dollars as a result?

Could be the new scam. I bet people out there are going to be doing this to make tons of money until youtube smartens up.

<comment><USER24> This is already happening a lot. So far Youtube hasnt changed anything

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> Seems like you should be able to leverage standard copyright law - per- violation 10-100k seems like the industry demanded fine...

<comment><USER11> Does YouTube have the necessary information to prosecute false claimants? They certainly are unwilling to pass such info on to content creators; I'm unsure what, if any, verification of identity is required to submit a claim.

<comment><USER25> Why would it be YouTube's job? Someone has claimed ownership and is now making profit on it - that (to me a non lawyer expect same behavior from the legal system ;) ) seems like it would be a standard copyright violation :D

<comment><USER26> If YouTube is unwilling to pass along the information, as the parent says, then who are you going to file suit against? You'll have to sue an unknown person and get a court order to get YouTube to turn over the person's name. That's an expensive start to aprocess with an unknown end. Isn't it even possible the person isn't in the US? Then you've thrown away your money.

<comment><USER27> It's really not that hard to do. People do sometimes overestimate how hard it is to do basic legal tasks.

Filing a simple John Doe summons in your home jurisdiction and then sending a subpoena to YouTube for the offending contact information is pretty trivial. You could probably find someone to do it for you for a thousand bucks or less.

Admittedly that's not free but in a context like this with real money at stake it's not a huge obstacle.

<comment><USER6> And what do you do when you go through all of that time and effort (and potential expense) and get the very likely outcome that the claimant is not in your home jurisdiction?

<comment><USER27> Jurisdiction isn't simply determined by where the opponent is. There's nuance to this but you can typically sue and gain jurisdiction in any venue that has a nexus to the business activity in question. Given that YouTube is global there's probably a lot of places you could find a valid venue. California almost certainly being one of them.

You might have trouble getting the opponent to cooperate but if your ultimate goal is to get YouTube to do something then that could work just fine.

Again, clearly legal action isn't _easy_ but people seem too inclined to throw up their hands instantly.

Learning how to take basic legal action is just a core part of running a business, and someone earning from YouTube at this level is indeed doing just that.

<comment><USER6> I'm not sure why you're singling out California, is that where the claimant is in this case? Or are you referring to YouTube?

My (and the GPs) question was: let's say, following the filing of the requisite legal documents and the accompanying fees if any, you receive the contact information of the claimant from YouTube. You are in Germany. The claimant's address is in Turkmenistan. What are you meant to do next?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER28> So what's stopping this guy from making a new account and claiming the video back? Should creators claim their own videos so they can't be claimed by others?

<comment><USER29> i think that's grounds for an instant strike against your new channel.since you only get 3 strikes before you're kaput it's not worth it

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> I had actually listened to this song recently on his channel. Hot tip: It's fun, check it out.

</comment><comment><USER31> You could shorten #FixYoutubeCopyright to #FixCopyright... because it is probably the source of the problem....

<comment><USER32> Nah. This situation is specific to Youtube -- copyright law doesn't deal in terms of monetization.

<comment><USER31> "yah." lookup dmca takedowns... they probaby just don't want to have to deal with the consequences of that.</comment></comment></comment>