Ask HN: Developers with ADHD/ADD, how do you cope? - <AUTHOR> I'm a junior developer and in a process to get ADD-diagnosis.
I find it very hard to stay focused at work, especially if the task in hand isn't something I'm passionate about. Even bigger problem I'm facing is that it's almost impossible to stay aware on what we are discussing in the meetings. My mind just constantly wanders away from the subject and this leads to embarassing moments and me missing crucial knowledge about the project.
I'm looking for practical tips and personal experiences on how you manage to stay productive and focused during work day.
Thanks in advance! <comment><USER2> First off: Diagnosis and medication access is one thing, but maintenance is another key — find a psychiatrist or physician who you get on with well and can work with for a good long while.

Other tips:

* _Use_ hyper-focus when you have it, to the best of your ability. I think of it like a gift from my brain, and I try to get the most mileage out of it as possible, even if the task I'm working on isn't top priority.

* Focus on building good habits. I find it's a way to trick my brain into doing things that are good for me.

* For meetings, have someone(s) who you can check in with about what's been discussed. Ideally, someone who you can say "hey, I didn't quite follow what happened — what are the key points?"

* Strong agreement with other folks on using task management systems. My general recommendation is to find one you like (Getting Things Done is my favorite, but there are no shortage of others) try it out for a good long while (2+ months), and slowly adapt it to your personal needs.

* Talk to your people manager about work you've been assigned to that you're not interested in. Sometimes you're really needed in a particular area and other times you're not. If you express your preferences for particular types of work, you're more likely to get it.

</comment><comment> bad-joke Medication, exercise, and mindfulness meditation were game changers for me.

Meditation was effective because it sharpened my ability to detect when I lost focus and course-correct. With daily practice, this habit (mind wanders -> notice mind wandering -> gently redirect focus back to original intent) became automatic. I was surprised to notice myself "waking up" and clicking back into place over and over throughout the day, whereas before meditation I seemed to "wake up" only at the end of the day with nothing done.

At work I listen to ambient music and use Pomodoros to pace myself. I also asked my supervisor to start requesting daily status updates on my projects. Without the extra accountability, I let things slide off the radar too easily.

It's difficult sometimes. Russell Barkley likens these habits/calendars/medications as a sort of prosthesis. That framing helps me to accept these things as one part of a unique life experience instead of a debilitating setback.

</comment><comment><USER3> To everyone talking about medication in this thread:

I have always had ADHD but was intelligent enough to get by through my schooling with bad study habits. I "got away" with it so to speak, with cramming at the last minute and being able to retain lots of information while my peers had to put more dedication into it. It seemed up front like a solution but in reality I was only cheating myself.

Once I got out into real software development world, I just couldnt sit down at a screen for all the hours I needed to without wandering away, so I got an official diagnosis of ADHD and a perscription of Vyvanse.

I spent 5 years going off and on the medication. There is nothing else but vyvanse that will let me sit down and churn out code for hours and hours on end, but it makes your mental state absolute hell and you will burn out. It was a short sighted solution and the amphetamine dependency and withdrawls I experienced. When I finally managed to quit I was such a mental mess I had to take 6 weeks away from work with mood swings.

Additionally to note, the amphetamines make it more difficult to learn new thing but make it easier to churn out what you already know, which isn't the most effective thing in our field.

In the end, what do I use now to medicate? Intense physical excersize. Daily. Lots of it. Tire out your body. Seriously. Fight against every one of your urges to lose focus and stay on task for generated short bursts then switch tasks and environments.

There is not feeling in the world better than being able to be productive without amphetamines after feeling you 'need' them because you 'have ADHD'.

<comment><USER4> There are a large number of different medications that have very different side-effects and effectiveness for different people. If Vyvanse doesn't work for you, talk about what "not working" means to you with your doctor; a good doctor can use that data to inform the decision about what other medications to try.

Personally I've been on adderall for the better part of 20 years. I went through a bunch of different meds after getting a diagnosis and I regularly try other medicaitons (once a year or so) to see if other medications may work better (your body changes over time as does your tolerances).

If you can get by without medication then that's great. For those of us that can't, there is a large number of options.

This video series taught me a lot about my own condition: [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wW...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs- cvY)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> I also have this problem. Here are some tips I've found useful.

\-- When possible, do things that you're passionate about. Develop your passions and try to work within those constraints.

\-- Have a single monitor

\-- Create a TODO list. Also start the day or working session with planning.

\-- When tackling new problems, try to do the easiest tasks first to build momentum, before tackling harder tasks

\-- Break down tasks into the smallest components and do them one at a time

\-- Give yourself a reward for doing a small section of tasks (ie. watch a YT video)

\-- Develop your self confidence and create a strong passion for competition, that's driven me past a lot of my attention problems

</comment><comment><USER6> I don't take any medication for it, but music can help, and over the years, I've gotten better at focusing by simply willing myself to do it. There are definitely a lot of days when I'll end up blankly staring at my screen for an hour while my mind runs through a bunch of unrelated information, but I'm stubborn and have been able to push through this the majority of the time.

I also try to always write down a task so I don't forget it later. For my own personal projects, I like to use Trello to organize my tasks and plan out what I need to work on for the next release.

I can definitely understand the difficulty to focus on something you're not interested in. Maybe you could try listening to a podcast or something about something you ARE interested in while working? Depends on how bad the ADD is, because for me, I would end up completely focusing on that and tuning out my actual work.

Also, if you're seriously trying to work on something and it's usually an issue for you, put your phone somewhere where you won't be constantly reaching for it.

</comment><comment><USER7> the most helpful thing youll do is getting that diagnosis and finding the medication that suits you which was a game changer for me (initially i tried methylphenidate (ritalin) but it was a little too "up and down" for me, it seemed to tail off before my next dose was due but i then switched to lisdexamphetamine (Elvanse/Vyvanse) which has proven incredibly effective)

before this i generally got through by having multiple tasks on the go at once, pick a reasonably simple task and a complex one and regularly drop from the complex task to the easier one, a good example for me is updating my commenting on other bits as im pretty terrible at adding it as i go, i cant say this will work for you but it helped me.

the only other thing i can suggest is to try and reduce your possible distractions for which headphones are helpful ideally with instrumental music, background conversations and words can trigger your mind to go off on a different path

basically try and reduce things that may distract you and try and keep other tasks ready so that if you do get distracted youll fall onto other work which keeps you productive but as i said before i cant promise these tricks will work for you as everyone finds different coping mechanisms work for them

<comment><USER8> > _lisdexamphetamine_

Out of curiosity, for those who use ADHD/ADD medications like this, do you get insomnia as a side effect and, if so, how do you deal with it?

The one time I was prescribed this type of medication, I was still terribly unfocused during the day because I was barely getting any sleep even after lowering the dosage considerably.

<comment><USER9> I never take my medication after 1PM, I get up early and take my first dose and then take my second dose around 12-1. Every once in a while I will get insomnia and for that I generally just take a half of one of my anti-anxiety pills or take a small dose of over the counter zzzquil. The insomnia is worse in the beginning at some points, now days I can be right in the peak of my dose and if I choose to, I can take a nap.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Pro-Tip: when you get a medication, make sure you're prepared to be doing something productive after you take it, otherwise you may end up browsing social media with a sense of focus like never before.

Also, invest time in learning how to stay hydrated. I got terrible dry mouth when I took adderall.

Also also, set alarms during productivity time to get up and walk around otherwise you will forget. For me, this caused me to get swelling in my lower legs a bit, which I think was due to a combination of sitting and no longer tapping my feet.

</comment><comment><USER11> So many good comments in this thread.

In addition to a diagnosis and getting the right meds, and all the work / task management habits, I've found that meditation and mindfulness has been really helpful for calming me down, and letting me focus on what I need to focus. When I meditate there is usually an initial startup phase where my mind is racing, from one worry or task to another. I consciously try to acknowledge the presence of the task and then mentally tuck it away and try to regain focus on my meditation object (the breath leaving my nose or the breath in my belly for example).

This ability to step away and consciously not engage with a worry or idea is kind of the crux of the ADHD problem for me - so meditation helps. It helps me remember to "let go" and be okay with not focusing on that worry, so I can get back to the central goal sooner.

Many people have mentioned organizational tips like lists and task management. I'd expand to offer systematic organization of physical things in my home to be similarly helpful. The idea follows that when everything has a place (this book goes here, that cable goes there, etc), and you know the place or system rules, then it's easier to recognize when things are messy and fix the situation. Ive still got a lot of work todo here but that Marie Kondo Art of Tidying Up show helped me for sure.

<comment><USER11> Also bonus tip: I've worked in open offices for years and this year switched to wearing foam ear plugs instead of listening to music, and it's a night and day difference in productivity for me. It takes a couple of days to get used to and people will just start talking to you but everyone eventually learns you have ear plugs in. I actually built a device for that specific problem for headphones: [https://github.com/joer14/hackers- doorbell](https://github.com/joer14/hackers-doorbell)

I still sometimes listen to music, but now when I do I realize how distracted it can make me and I only utilize it when I'm warming up or losing steam and need a mental change of scenery.

<comment><USER12> You're saying you willingly plug that torture device into your own machine?

Only half kidding, cool project - but I would not be able to tolerate the screen inversion.

<comment><USER11> Haha yeah I no longer use the device, since I use ear plugs. It's a bit excessive for sure. Glad you got a kick out of it!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Meds + organization to make sure that I'm never "going down a rabbit hole":

* Take notes furiously in meetings. Don't try to organize the information as you go. Just get down as much info as you can. Take 10-15 minutes after each meeting to decipher your notes and pull out the key takeaways & action items.

* Keep a written debugging log. You see [weird behavior], so you want to check logs? Write the weird behavior down first. See recurring errors in the logs? Write down the error and traceID so you can find it later. Don't assume that you will "just remember" \- you can't, and you won't.

* Use a whiteboard for planning tasks of any size. Make a rough plan of the commits you'd like to have at the end of the day. If the plan changes, go back and update your whiteboard. Make sure you know _why_ you're doing whatever you're doing.

</comment><comment><USER14> If you're not taking medication like adderal or ritalin, or you can't be bothered to receive a diagnosis, try caffeine and perhaps look into nootropics. I haven't taken medication since I graduated school and could decide for myself, but the caffeine and nootropics work really well. You might need music or some sort of background noise that won't distract you. Simple checklists can help you move through daily tasks. You also need to be interested in whatever you're doing to help you focus. If your job doesn't interest you, it will be rough.

I think there are a few varieties of attention deficit, I don't know anything about being physically hyperactive, just the inattentive part.

</comment><comment><USER15> Excellent advice here!

I add two more:

* Check out the pomodorro technique. It forces my to break tasks down into even smaller chunks that usual and give me a rush of dopamine when I finish those.

* I try to stay away from systems and languages that are not responsive enough. I need to see results fast and am willing to take quite a pay cut just so that I don't get bored waiting for a job to be done. So no big enterprise company for me, but rather prototyping and freelancing.

<comment><USER9> Before I was diagnosed, I was most productive on green field development project where I could do the big picture stuff but had other detail oriented members on the team who could paint in the details. As well as when I was out freelancing on 6-mo or less engagements.

Looking back that makes sense to me. Start-up culture was a natural fit for me when I was younger so the ADD masked itself as I was productive in that culture.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I can't write as detailed as I'd like to since I'm at work atm, but I'm a firm believer that a lot of diseases diagnosed do worse than better to you, since you automatically believe what is told to you and in some sort of way become "helpless". Of course you can take meds, but usually you have to stay on them forever, and when you quit you will relapse to your old behaviours. Now, I recommend to you these couple of things that have helped me and a lot others:

\- Meditate: so underrated, this gives you so much calm and control that you cant even imagine. Do it periodically (for instance, I meditate 5 days a week) and do it on a fixed time each day, this will help you making it a habit. Probably better to start with mindless meditation, I recommend you Headspace app or you can also benefit from any YT video.

\- Use pomodoro technique to work on tasks, it doesn't matter what task is given to you, make sure to work on it on the defined timeframe. Usually pomodoro is 25m work/5m rest, you should start with a different schedule, find one that works for you (at the beginning I used to do like 10x10).

\- Read the book "Deep Work" by Cal Newport, a lot of valuable insight in there. Digital minimalsim by the same author should probably be on point as well (I haven't read it yet), but in Deep Work he emphasizes a lot about the damge that tech is doing to us, specially in our attention spans (you're constantly bombarded by notifications and reacting to them).

\- Watch this video on how to control your mind (short but pretty useful): [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYfYmYbp7C4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYfYmYbp7C4)

Good luck, you can do it.

</comment><comment><USER17> Badly! Some days I have to write off as a loss, I wake up on the wrong side of the bed and cant control my attention. Other days I have great focus and creativity where my mind considers a million options at ever step of cognition. Adderall has not really helped in reducing procrastinating, but it does work well as a kindle when I try to manually trigger hyperfocus.

<comment><USER18> Wow. This is literally my life. Though, I feel like the frequency of "waking up on the wrong side of bed" has been increasing every year. Never tried medication.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> What are actual symptoms of ADHD/ADD? How do you know you have ADHD?

I am asking because I read recently ADHD is very difficult to detect.

<comment><USER20> It's similar to colourblindness, in that it's really hard to tell because it's all you've ever known. Your best bet is probably to try an online test and go to see a doctor if it suggests there could be something there.

This one looks good: [https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-symptoms-test- adults/](https://www.additudemag.com/adhd-symptoms-test-adults/)

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> I don't have ADHD, but I used to struggle with time management due to other issues and I found that todo lists are a big help.

I actually don't use fancy software, just a .ODT with a bulleted list of projects, then smaller bulleted lists of tasks for the project (with another level of indentation for when I work on the task itself).

Helps get over the "gulf of execution" to start something or feeling like you're spinning your wheels and reassure yourself "it's ok you're not 'done' \- you've done a lot to move towards being 'done'"

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_execution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_execution)

</comment><comment><USER22> Lists, logs, writing, post-its, Todo lists etcetcetc.

I tend to forget stuff even while I'm doing it, so it helps a million if what I'm doing is written on a Post-It right in front of me.

Also, to keep track of tasks, problems, todos etc, I have a huge text file that is bound to the ctrl-` keybinding (autohotkey script opens a file in sublime text).

I think the most important thing is to externalize your mind into your environment, you might forget, but your table or text files won't.

Also, make sure to watch Russel Barkley. This man is literally ADHD Jesus. [https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0](https://youtu.be/_tpB-B8BXk0)

<comment><USER23> > Russel Barkley

Some of his claims are questionable. AFAIR he claims that:

\- ADHD has no advantages

\- ADHD has a negative effect on working memory

\- ADHD has no negative effect on intelligence

Since working memory is a factor in intelligence, one of these statements must be false.

His political views are also interesting.

> Barkley is a right-wing libertarian. He deeply believes in "Limited > government, individual rights, freedom of speech and association, and the > nonaggression principle (no one, including the government, has a right to > initiate force or fraud against another), and private property rights". He > has attacked "the leftist, social democratic or socialist leanings of > Facebook's founder and most mainstream media outlets".[35]

I'm not mentioning this to discredit him or because I think you should judge a psychologists by his political views. But I've always associated these views with the assumption that poor people are generally poor not because they don't have the skills, self-discipline etc. needed to be successful but because they are lazy and thus don't deserve welfare. If Barkley, an ADHD researcher, actually believes that he's very good at tolerating cognitive dissonance.

<comment><USER22> I have never looked into his political beliefs, and I don't care for it either. He has been a massive help for me in managing my symptoms, and helping me see how my brain works, and why I keep falling on my head in certain areas.

I also think it's important to mention, Barkley has a very large emotional stake in his research, his brother had ADHD, and he died in a car accident.

I won't try to guess the influence of this incident on Barkley, but I can only think that Barkley "hates" ADHD for this reason (ie, ADHD has no advantages), and I think it becomes clearer why he is so immensely focused on the negative aspects of ADHD.

I won't comment on his stance on intelligence or memory.

<comment><USER23> > I have never looked into his political beliefs, and I don't care for it > either. He has been a massive help for me in managing my symptoms, and > helping me see how my brain works, and why I keep falling on my head in > certain areas.

Absolutely! I don't really care that he has these views either, I was just surprised.

> I won't try to guess the influence of this incident on Barkley, but I can > only think that Barkley "hates" ADHD for this reason (ie, ADHD has no > advantages), and I think it becomes clearer why he is so immensely focused > on the negative aspects of ADHD.

Definitely. I think his belief that ADHD has no advantages probably stems from emotions, not from logic (although I'm sure he rationalises it)

<comment><USER24> One impression I've gotten from Barkley is he's used to interacting with people who do not believe in ADHD, or underestimate the conditions effect on individuals and their lives. His talks often revolve around acknowledging the seriousness of ADHD and how the symptoms are not a result of moral / intentional failures but cognitive defects

<comment><USER23> That makes sense, and his work is important.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Huge thanks for all you great minds who answered this! I got many helpful tips which I'll definetely start experimenting with while waiting for my diagnosis. Once more: thank you!

</comment><comment><USER25> I practice ruthless minimalism in everything. Having zero irrelevant things in my world leaves little room for distraction.

</comment><comment><USER26> In my case, I didn't find a medication that suits me, but I was diagnostic recently so it's an ongoing process.

The only two things that (almost) works for me at this moment are a notebook (I use a modified version of bullet journal) and meditation (I use headspace).

Apart from that: sleep. That helps with the weird depression-like mood I always have.

</comment><comment><USER27> Medication is one way, but not very sustainable. Do take the medicines your doctor prescribes, but also plan with your healthcare professionals to taper off the dosage. For longer term, therapy, counselling, meditation, exercise & diet are better suited. It depends a lot on the severity of the symptoms though.

</comment><comment><USER28> Neurofeedback training has been very useful that I even forget that I have ADHD. Take a look at this post if interested.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19984126](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19984126)

</comment><comment><USER29> Had to switch to working as a consultant, selling what I am passionate about this time. It was absolutely impossible to be an adequate employee working in corporate environment, and participate in meetings. So, that's my datapoint.

</comment><comment><USER30> To be honest this could be me, or I'm guessing, a lot of people. It's hard to stay focused when you are not interested in something.

A quick win might be to take notes or ask questions and participate in the meeting.

<comment><USER15> Don't mistake that normal occurrence for anything aching to ADD tho. Saying "I got a little bit ADD because I something loose focus when I find something boring" is equivalent to saying "I got a little bit cancer because sometimes my stomach hurts".

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I'm 39 was diagnosed w/ ADD last year -- best things that work are Vyvanse 50mg, get decent sleep, and exercise.

</comment><comment><USER32> Taking notes in meetings can help you stay focused.

You can also record meetings on your phone for reference later.

Lots of other good suggestions here too.

</comment><comment><USER33> I have had a lot of success with the Pomadoro method. 25 minutes work, 5 minute break, then start over.

</comment><comment><USER34> This is something I'm still learning how to cope with. I've been diagnosed with ADHD since 2nd grade and have been taking Adderall since then. As of recently I started meditating and working on being more mindful, basically I was trying to get out of my head and stop the constant self-talk that was doing more harm and good. For the first time in a couple years I just stopped taking the medicine for 3 months because I wanted to see how I would do, and it really put things in perspective for me. I learned that I was able to really control my focus and keep working at something when I didn't want to, but I still had a really hard time getting into my work. It would take me much longer to absorb whatever I'm working on and get after it. Sorry for the rant, but here are somethings that have really helped me.

\- Eat a healthy diet

\- Work out regularly - Cardio helps start the day and get the blood flowing & weight lifting helps get out any aggression I may have.

\- Try using a guided meditation app. This really helps me start the day off on the right foot, it lets you understand how you are feeling and where you mind is at and it gives you the chance to reset. The meditation has also helped me with knowing when I'm thinking and not paying attention to something. Waking up with Sam Harris is the app I use and it has been amazing.

\- Set an intention for what you want to do that day. THIS. THIS. Has really helped me stay focused, I know what I want to do and I try to stay on course.

\- Talk with a Doctor about the medication and don't settle on the first one. Test them out and see what works best for you. I've been on Adderall all my life and I'm going to talk to my doctor soon about switching to something that won't zombify me so much.

\- Don't try to do too much. I constantly come up with new ideas and things I want to start doing, but I'm not always realistic about getting them done, so when I don't do them I feel like I failed. Lately I've been thinking about the idea and whether the idea is actually realistic and something that I will continue to do or is this something that is just a waste of my time and energy.

I enjoy talking about ADHD, most of my comments have been on the topic so if you ever want to talk more reach out! Also don't be hard on yourself for not being able to pay attention, once you start noticing your not paying attention, just begin again.

</comment><comment><USER35> stop multitasking</comment>


Daniel Ellsberg: Open Letter to Amazon - <AUTHOR> http://www.ellsberg.net/archive/open-letter-to-amazon

<comment><USER2> Dup: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1965683>

This was flagged and deleted.</comment>


Artificial Intelligence Could Be on Brink of Passing Turing Test - <AUTHOR> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/turing-test-revisited/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=wiredscienceclickthru

<comment><USER2> The Turing Test was a very clever way of describing an AI without having to get into dead end philosophical arguments about what is or isn't intelligence (Ants have very complex social structure and engineering abilities - but are they intelligent?).

Turing picked something uniquely human and used it as a baseline. Unfortunately, what we got is passing the cargo cult turing test, as described in the Chinese Room Experiment.

I think what we all had hoped for, however, was HAL. What we are going to get is more and more iterations of cleverbot.

<comment> Tuna-Fish I have never actually understood the "chinese room experiment".

As formulated in WP, the point is supposed to be that while the room is working, the man in it cannot understand Chinese, so similarly the computer cannot understand it. But isn't this completely pointless, as despite what the man and the computer can or cannot understand, the room or the program can? The man (or the computer) is just a cog in a larger system, and cannot be expected to understand the system, just as none of my individual neurons cannot understand English.

> I think what we all had hoped for, however, was HAL. What we are going to > get is more and more iterations of cleverbot.

And what is the difference? When we can build a program that can parse natural language and use it to access information, it will open a whole new technological revolution.

<comment><USER3> Searle calls your objection the "systems reply", and his response can be found here (2a): <http://www.iep.utm.edu/chineser/#H2>

<comment><USER4> Pretty much everything Searle has ever written on the subject can be predicted by starting with the argument "but only humans can understand meaning!" and working from there.

In part c of that link, he lays it out quite clearly: even if you manage to build a detailed working simulation of a human brain, even if you then insert it inside a human's head and hook it up in all the right ways, you still haven't "done the job", because a _mere simulation_ of a brain can't have mental states or understand meaning. Because it's not a human brain.

In other words, he's an idiot. Or at least he's so committed to being "right" on this issue that he's willing to play the dirty philosophy game of sneakily redefining words behind the scenes until he's right by default.

But in any case, he's not talking about any practical or mesurable effect or difficulty related to AI. He's arguing that even if you built HAL, he wouldn't acknowledge it as intelligent, because his definition of "intelligent" can only be applied to humans.

<comment><USER5> Is it Searle who redefines consciousness because he's doesn't like computers, or is it you, because you like them? His argument is quite brilliant, because it's both _clear_ and _non-trivial_. Most of the self-appointed internet philosophers lack both of these qualities.

For example, people who say that there is no difference between understanding addition and merely running an addition algorithm are wrong. Dead wrong. You don't need complex philosophy to show that. Yes, the results of computations would be the same, but the consequences for the one doing computing are not. We all know that a person who _understands_ something can do much more with it than a person who merely memorized a process. Everybody agrees to this when it comes to education, so why is this principle suddenly reversed when it comes to computers?

<comment><USER6> _Most of the self-appointed internet philosophers lack both of these qualities_ : What use is attacking the man here?

You are also misrepresenting Searle's argument. In the case of addition, the machine would not only be able to perform it, but also _answer any conceivable question_ that regards the abstract operation of addition. It would be able to do everything a human would do, excluding nothing. The underlying argument is that "understanding" is a fundamentally and exclusively human property (this will not be fully rebutted until we discover in full the processes underlying learning and memory in humans)

Granted, a huge list of syntactic rules will probably not result to any useful intelligence, but a brain simulator would be exactly equivalent to a human (and Searle's response to that argument is completely unfounded)

<comment><USER5> I don't think I misrepresent his argument. I just interpret it using different examples. He uses a huge example, like speaking Chinese, which seems to confuse a lot of people. I use something much simpler, like doing addition.

His argument is based on the notion that doing something and understanding what you do are two different things. I don't see why this needs an elaborate thought-experiment when we all have experienced doing things without understanding them. We don't need to compare humans to computers to see the difference.

Problem is, this difference becomes apparent only when you go beyond the scope of the original activity/algorithm. And that's exactly where modern AI programs fail, badly. You take a sophisticated algorithm that does wonders in one domain, throw it into a vastly different domain, and it starts to fail, miserably, even though that second domain might be very simple.

<comment><USER6> His argument is that, while a human can do something with or without understanding it (e.g Memorizing), a machine can only do the former and will never do the latter. The argument may hold for the currect (simplistic) AI, but not for a future full brain simulator.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> One thing I've always wondered about turing tests: Wouldn't AI's need to lie a hell of a lot in order to pass it.

For example, if I asked someone to tell me the capital city of every country in the world, I'd be very surprised if they could. However, a half decent AI could do this easily. But what if I pushed it further and started to ask really complex maths questions (something computers are much better at than humans) then It would become clear very quickly that I'm talking to a machine.

Also, humans have holes in their knowledge. For example, given the question "Who is the prime minister of the Netherlands?" the answer for most people is going to be, "I don't know". Or what about "Which team won the first ever FA cup?". Despite not knowing the answer (The Royal Electrical & Mechanical Engineers) most people would hazard a guess (Manchester United, Liverpool) and be wrong.

Programming an AI to play dumb would be relatively easy. But what use is an AI that lies? Passing the test may well be possible, but what use is Artificial intelligence that pretends to as dumb as humans?

<comment><USER8> You assume that any AI worth the label will already be as capable as current PCs.

But perhaps there is a tradeoff? Maybe becoming "intelligent" in the way we understand it is incompatible with the "dumb calculator/encyclopedia" capabilities of regular computers? Maybe true AI will _necessarily_ lose the ability to look anything up instantly or calculate large columns of numbers?

I don't really believe that, but it is a possibility.

<comment><USER7> I've sort of had the same idea. I've wondered wether the power required to have a robot process all it would need to in order to move around and interact with the world by responding to all the different stimuli (optical, audio, kinetic) wouldn't leave many CPU cycles left for doing the super human things we're used to computers doing.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I find it hilarious that _half an hour_ after this is posted here, there are no comments. Because, you're right, O HN Reader: they're not even close. But you already knew that without reading TFA, didn't you? And just to satisfy your curiosity, they're talking about Watson-style machines, but then following this talk with quotes about "huge challenges " remaining, which are apparently too insignificant to mention in the title.

</comment><comment><USER10> Like some others have said, the Turing Test is more a human mimicry test than a test of intelligence or consciousness. We humans love to anthropomorphize, so tricking us into believing a machine is human shouldn't be how we gauge the effectiveness of our AI.

I ran across these "Fundamental Principles of Cognition" that might do a better job:

Principle 1. Object Identification (Categorization)

Principle 2. Minimal Parsing ("Occam's Razor")

Principle 3. Object Prediction (Pattern Completion)

Principle 4. Essence Distillation (Analogy Making)

Principle 5. Quantity Estimation and Comparison (Numerosity Perception)

Principle 6. Association-Building by Co-occurrence (Hebbian Learning)

Principle 6½. Temporal Fading of Rarity (Learning by Forgetting)

See: <http://www.foundalis.com/res/poc/PrinciplesOfCognition.htm>

Also, Hofstadter suggests some similar "essential abilities for intelligence".

1\. To respond to situations very flexibility.

2\. To make sense out of ambiguous or contradictory messages.

3\. To recognize the relative importance of different elements of a situation.

4\. To find similarities between situations despite differences, which may separate them.

5\. To draw distinctions between situations despite similarities, which may link them.

</comment><comment><USER11> Despite its hyped-up title, this Wired news piece contains no real news of scientific advances. In fact, I can summarize it in one sentence: "with more and more data coming online, and with sophisticated techniques for collecting, organizing, and processing all this data, computers might soon be able to fool the Turing Test."

<comment><USER12> What's the difference between collecting, organizing, and processing data, and intelligence?

<comment><USER13> The ability to solve problems that fall outside the envelope of your harvested and processed data?

<comment><USER12> Do you think that you have the ability to solve problems that fall outside the envelope of your harvested and processed data? I certainly don't think I have that ability, and I'm human (i swear).

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> TL;DR: Artificial Intelligence Probably Not on Brink of Passing Turing Test

<comment><USER15> But Wired says it _could be_ on brink of passing Turing Test! ;)

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Here is one of my favourite articles on the Turing Test.

The method described in this article appears similar in its approach, "Suppose, for a moment, that all the words you have ever spoken, heard, written, or read, as well as all the visual scenes and all the sounds you have ever experienced, were recorded and accessible".

<https://sites.google.com/site/asenselessconversation/>

</comment><comment><USER8> I think of the Turing test not as an actual experiment that can be performed, but more of a first crack at a working definition of intelligence.

Sort of like Shannon said "Let's leave 'meaning' to the psychologists, and define 'information' based on properties inherent in the message itself" and ended up revolutionizing information theory.

Turing is saying "Stop bickering over 'comprehension' and 'intent'. Can we just agree that if a machine can fool an intelligent human being into thinking it is also an intelligent human being - based only on its information output rather than its physical shape - that machine deserves the label 'intelligent'?"

And I agree. Philosophers can argue about the internal state of that mind all they want. But if I can converse and crack jokes with my new computer buddy, I have no qualms about calling him intelligent. At least until he blue screens and finally fails the test by spitting out a hex dump.

</comment><comment><USER16> We already have a sort of AI that can be used for real world applications - it's called the Internet. Using Google, Facebook, Wikipedia and dozens of other sites, it's relatively easy to create a robot that can do quite a lot of things - the problem is that creating the actual physical body of the robot is expensive - humans are cheaper and still do everything better.

We don't even need AI, we need robots for specific tasks that would also be programmed to work around any potential issues (most of which can be identified and programmed if the field of application is narrow enough) - making them create workarounds/solutions for new problems would be awesome and all, but it's not necessary, IMO.

</comment><comment><USER17> A few months ago there was a rumor about a Google X AI project that passes the Turing Test 93% of the time in an IM conversation:

[http://www.webpronews.com/is-google-x-all-about-highly- intel...](http://www.webpronews.com/is-google-x-all-about-highly-intelligent- robots-2011-12)

<comment><USER18> Wouldn't passing the Turing Test 93% of the time mean that the machine does a better job of pretending to be human than an actual human? I'd expect 50% success to be the target.

<comment><USER19> I could just mean the result number is readjusted based on the baseline figure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The contemporary approach: no new theoretical breakthrough? Pick an old model and throw more data at it.

</comment><comment><USER21> If siri 5.0 or Cyc 1000000.0 passes the Turing test, it will be the same story all over again...the goal posts will be moved one more time. People will say that passing the Turing test is not really a mark of true intelligence, its just an imitation!

</comment><comment><USER22> Ah, another rehash the "AI springs forth from complexity" argument. This is entertainingly laid out in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", "Colossus: The Forbin Project", "The Adolescence of P1", "Man Plus", etc.

</comment><comment><USER23> Such a load of speculation, psssht. Why is this on the front page?

</comment><comment><USER24> As soon as Deep Blue was mentioned as AI, I closed that browser tab. Another "journalist" trying to justify a paycheck.

</comment><comment><USER25> Well I remember a post from a few months back saying artificial intelligence probably needs a reebot.

<comment><AUTHOR> What exactly does it mean to reboot a field of study?

Take a step back and try to find new, possibly easier approaches?

<comment> excuse-me It's generally instigated as an alternative scenario to merely buzzword compliant ongoing forward dynamic enhancement using synergies between interdisciplinary field approaches.

See - all you need is perl, rand and /usr/dict to create an AI that while it can't pass as human can at least obtain a research grant

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> We are moving into a post-literate world. "Artificial Intelligence" is a field of endeavor, not an entity that can try to pass a test. The headline is not as bad as movie stars and news anchors using objective pronouns as the subject of a sentence, but it still shows that the language is changing, and not for the better, IMHO.

</comment><comment><USER27> This article is _wildly_ speculative. :/

</comment><comment><USER28> One of these posts was from an AI. Can you tell which one?</comment>


Code Spelunking in the all new Basecamp - <AUTHOR> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3167-code-spelunking-in-the-all-new-basecamp

<comment><USER2> $('[data-behavior~=date_picker]').live 'focus', -> $(this).datepicker()

So basically every focus on the element creates a new datepicker. If you're not careful this could mean memory bloat and unpredictable behavior as the plugin is attached several times.

<comment><USER3> I'm guessing their datepicker() function checks if the datepicker has already been attached or not.

By using onfocus rather than attaching it on page load, the datepicker isn't loaded until it's required (gives a minor speed improvement I imagine).

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> I wonder why they use both, redis and memcached. Wouldn't redis be a decent enough replacement so they could kick a bit of additional infrastructure

</comment><comment><USER5> Thanks for the repost! Herp derp admin links :(</comment>


Oculus VR Will Go 'Full Consumer' with Samsung by Year's End - <AUTHOR> http://recode.net/2015/03/04/oculus-vr-will-go-full-consumer-with-samsung-by-years-end/

<comment><USER2> This has me wondering if Oculus hasn't been spooked a bit by Valve's announcement that their VR system will be available for purchase in Q4 2015.

I've never heard them position the Samsung Gear VR as the "official" Oculus consumer solution; it always sounded like to them "full consumer" would mean an Oculus-branded unit on store shelves, not a unit developed and branded by a third party that happened to use some Oculus tech. And they've been pretty clear in the past that 2015 was not going to be the year that Oculus-branded hardware was going to reach consumers. (Here's an example from back in January of Oculus CEO Brendan Iribe making noises that even 2016 might be too optimistic: [http://www.ibtimes.com/oculus-vr-ceo-brendan-iribe-if-you- do...](http://www.ibtimes.com/oculus-vr-ceo-brendan-iribe-if-you-dont-have- content-you-dont-sell-hardware-1778140))

Now Valve says they'll be on shelves in time for Christmas, and suddenly Oculus has a "full consumer" solution ready to go by the same time. Mirabile dictu! But that "full consumer" solution isn't the "CV1" Oculus-branded consumer product, but a spiffed up version of Samsung's already-released Gear VR. Hmmm.

It feels like Valve's announcement put them on the spot; like they felt that now they had to have _something_ they could put on shelves at the same time, or cede Valve a chance to lock up the market, and the Gear VR was the only thing even semi-Oculus that could realistically meet that schedule. So Oculus anoints Gear VR as their consumer solution, and makes like that was the plan all along.</comment>


An Update on Facebook Ads - <AUTHOR> http://www.facebook-studio.com/news/item/an-update-on-facebook-ads?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+facebook-studio%2FhxhX+%28Facebook+Studio+Blog%29

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm disappointed that they are removing offers. We've had great success with them, although I am hopeful we can replicate most of the success with link posts.</comment>


180 days in San Francisco - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@gkossakowski/180-days-in-san-francisco-d768a9351806 <comment><USER2> Proposed long-range plan:

1\. Make yourself indispensable. Become that 10x developer you spoke of in your post.

2\. Tell management that you're only willing to continue working with them under the condition that you're allowed to work remotely.

3\. Get the hell out of San Francisco.</comment>


Earth's gravity map - <AUTHOR> http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEM1AK6UPLG_index_0.html

<comment><USER2> I really don't know much about this stuff. Why is that orb not round at all? Is the earth really like that? When you look at earth from space, it looks nothing like that.

Edit: I understand mountains and things make it not round, but the perspective of the image makes it look like it's be from space as well. So I guess that's what I'm trying to compare it too

<comment><USER3> It's an exaggerated portrayal of the differences in Earth's gravitational field, not a depiction of the actual shape of the Earth.

<comment><USER4> It isn't an exaggerated portrayal, it's a realistic portrayal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Interesting also is the earlier American-German GRACE satellite. For more information on both see here <http://www.science20.com/planetbye/grace_goce>

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> youtube video:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d4E5T9PSbo0)</comment>


Iris framework author exposed for license violations - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/golang/comments/4psfzq/katarasiris_author_is_crazy/ <comment><USER2> I don't see this framework going anywhere. The repo owner is the sole contributor [0], and is singularly pre-occupied with benchmarks and GitHub stars. The owner's entitlement about copy-pasted code, use of the royal "we", quickness to close issues without discussion, and pattern of editing and deleting issue comments are also discouraging.

[0] [https://github.com/kataras/iris/graphs/contributors](https://github.com/kataras/iris/graphs/contributors)

<comment><AUTHOR> He is not the sole contributor, actually. He squashes master every once in a while to a single commit, which removes other authors. If you peruse the travis builds page[1] you can see commits by other people

[1] [https://travis-ci.org/kataras/iris/builds](https://travis- ci.org/kataras/iris/builds)

<comment><USER2> This seems terribly hypocritical - someone very mindful of GitHub stars going out of his way to remove others' attribution!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> More specific to the license violations is this issue on httprouter:

[https://github.com/julienschmidt/httprouter/issues/148](https://github.com/julienschmidt/httprouter/issues/148)

</comment><comment><USER3> Dude has a bit of a... "hook" with stars...

> I see that you didn't star Iris, can you tell me the reason in order to fix > that?

[https://github.com/kataras/iris/issues/148#issuecomment-2217...](https://github.com/kataras/iris/issues/148#issuecomment-221776409)

screenshot in case he edits it like every other thing: [http://i.imgur.com/5YxCVO5.png](http://i.imgur.com/5YxCVO5.png)

edit: same behavior at [https://github.com/kataras/iris/issues/225](https://github.com/kataras/iris/issues/225) and a couple other places. :|

</comment><comment><USER4> I want to throw the "if u want contributors, dont be a dick and stop edit all what you don't like"-Hammer on him

imho the "Propaganda" tag is horrible too

</comment><comment><USER5> he's even cheating in the THIRDPARTY.md (its existence is still not an excuse for violating licenses)

[https://github.com/kataras/iris/issues/230](https://github.com/kataras/iris/issues/230)

</comment><comment><USER6> The author is actively working to comply with licenses right now.

<comment><USER7> Matt, do you know the author?

<comment><USER6> He and I have chatted. I know he is fixing things. [https://github.com/julienschmidt/httprouter/issues/149](https://github.com/julienschmidt/httprouter/issues/149)

<comment><USER7> Ok. It looks like he is finally moving in the right direction.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Gmail - Find Emails That Never Got a Reply - <AUTHOR> http://jonathan-kim.com/2013/Gmail-No-Response/

<comment><USER2> Ah, I thought it would be the other way around. Before I send a mail, I click 'expect reply'. If I don't get a reply in x days, I get a notice. Is that a current option?

<comment><USER3> Boomerang for Gmail [0] has implemented this functionality well.

I prefer it to say having an entire folder of emails I haven't received replies on as it allows me to specifically manage messages that are important enough to require a non-replied reminder.

[0] [http://www.boomeranggmail.com/](http://www.boomeranggmail.com/)

<comment><AUTHOR> Boomerang and Followup.cc are both great alternatives, and I use them too. I like the granularity, but the downside is you're sending them a copy of your email, which might contain sensitive info :\

<comment><USER4> If you're looking for Boomerang functionality without the security/privacy implications, I wrote an open-source version that is designed to be self- hosted: [https://github.com/ChimeraCoder/go- yo](https://github.com/ChimeraCoder/go-yo)

It's written in Go; there's no external dependency _except_ a service that downloads emails to a Mailbox-type directory (I recommend offlineimap).

I've been dogfooding it myself for the last few months - I haven't actually "released" it officially yet, but if anybody is interested in beta testing it, I'd love some feedback.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Not to be too persnickety, but if you have to search for emails that didn't get a response, doesn't this imply that they didn't matter all that much to begin with? In other words if they mattered, you would know, and you would follow up on your own?

I guess if you're so busy you lose track of these things? But again...

<comment><USER6> Sometimes a reply may be contingent on getting some other bit of information in the near future, such as a response from some person or entity that is required before the response will be useful.

In the end, not everyone's usage pattern is the same, and people end up using email for things other than direct communication (such as tracking future work items). While not ideal, for some it's easier than dealing with a completely separate application that integrates to various degrees.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> My favorite gmail search tip: "has:nouserlabels" (via [https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7190?hl=en](https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7190?hl=en))

</comment><comment><USER8> I think this would just make me sad.

</comment><comment><USER9> I've written simplified instructions for how to use this (and simplified the script) here: [http://jacksmith.quora.com/How-to-find-emails-youve-sent- tha...](http://jacksmith.quora.com/How-to-find-emails-youve-sent-that-havent- received-a-reply-in-Gmail)

</comment><comment><USER4> > Some emails I send are sensitive, and I'd rather not forward it to a third- > party service if I don't have to. However, those sensitive emails are often > important, so I need a way to remember to follow up.

I feel this pain.

Shameless plug: I wrote an open-source version of Boomerang/Followup.cc that is designed to be self-hosted, specifically because of this concern: [https://github.com/ChimeraCoder/go-yo](https://github.com/ChimeraCoder/go-yo)

(For the record: I like script in the original submission script, but for me, I rarely use the Gmail web interface, so I had to make something that works over IMAP).

It's still a WIP, but I've been using it myself for the "bounce-back" feature for the last several months.

</comment><comment><USER10> The scripting capabilities of Google Apps don't get enough love round here. I'm fascinated what's possible in terms of mashups and hacks when you allow stuff to be scripted. Web APIs get a lot of attention but not APIs on apps and app-like stuff.

</comment><comment><USER11> I pray recruiters never find this

</comment><comment><USER12> Yesware is an interesting option. Try it out. Haven't touched boomerang or followup.cc since discovering it.

There is that privacy/security issue though. I always look at web based email as being inherently insecure anyway.

<comment><USER13> I tried all 3 and settled on [http://toolbox.mxhero.com](http://toolbox.mxhero.com). I like that they also have an open source version: [http://sourceforge.net/projects/mxhero/](http://sourceforge.net/projects/mxhero/)?

</comment></comment><comment> cupcake-unicorn Oh no, I thought this was exactly what I was looking for, but I would like it to be able to flag emails that _I_ haven't responded to yet in a few days or so..anyone done a modification to that?

<comment><USER14> Yup. I wrote a version to do this when Fred Wilson requested it a little over a year ago and I realized I needed it too: [https://script.google.com/d/1B8YC4D7KT7pZKXyq3TkfJUJPv1mmjZj...](https://script.google.com/d/1B8YC4D7KT7pZKXyq3TkfJUJPv1mmjZjtLaXSIQJNz4KoNDdbKOrzg5_C/edit)

Matt Galligan and I put together a version of the No Response Apps Script back in June also. It's more basic than this, but might be easier as a starting point for modification. [https://script.google.com/d/11c63LM4rOTxCP5uqffLDhIaEQFmNo0p...](https://script.google.com/d/11c63LM4rOTxCP5uqffLDhIaEQFmNo0pZJT3_dbXsvlHT- Sz1ywxNlZhf/edit?usp=sharing)

I've been loving Apps Script for things that are too lightweight to need something like Boomerang, with a server and a full browser extension, but heavy enough that you can't do it with a search string.

<comment> cupcake-unicorn Awesome, thanks! I just found out about google Script today - was thinking my only choice would be something like Greasemonkey - so very grateful for all this.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Google should hire this man.

</comment><comment><USER16> Good one, as long as marketers and recruiters don't use.

<comment><USER17> You realize that marketers and recruiters have giant databases full of email addresses and whether or not you responded, right?</comment></comment>


How every national business should design their "Find a Location" page - <AUTHOR> http://www.24hourfitness.com/health_clubs/find_a_club/interactive.html

<comment><AUTHOR> And they say flash is dead.</comment>


Chargebacks can kill crowdfunded businesses - <AUTHOR> http://blog.airbriteinc.com/post/68281049873/chargebacks-kill-crowdfunded-businesses-you-can-avoid Chargebacks are basically refunds. But they happen before you ship. Early-stage hardware makers and product design firms usually get hit during their manufacturing lag. If more than 1% of your total transactions result in chargebacks, credit card companies can refuse to let you process payments with their cards. And that's game over. <comment><USER2> So much wrong with this.

"Chargebacks are basically refunds. But they happen before you ship. "

No they can happen at anytime (including past the 120 day point even though that is supposed to be the cutoff time).

"Credit card companies generally cap the amount of chargebacks at 1-2 percent of a company's total transactions."

No Visa and MC set this and it comes with an AND clause. So you if you sell 100 of something and 1 person charges back - you are not going into a monitoring program.

"If your chargebacks exceed that, they limit your ability to process payments from their cards. Which means you won't be able to sell online"

Also not true. Even if you have a TMF you can still find banks who will process for you (assuming you are actually a legit company).

"you don't have to worry about chargebacks shutting you down."

You always have to worry about chargebacks.

"lets you do take orders and avoid chargebacks"

Like any other merchant account? You have nothing special which "avoids" chargebacks.

"There are two other solutions, both of them flawed. "

No. Several solutions to the problem. One option is a $0 auth to the card then try to bill when you are ready to ship. Any merchant account will support this.

"you can take all the payment and order information you need, sidestep chargebacks"

Nothing "sidesteps" chargebacks.</comment>


Ask HN: Companies selling consumer insights datasets - <AUTHOR> What are some companies selling consumer insights datasets? The more granular the better. Think Edison email receipt data (https://www.edison.tech/) or Yodlee credit card data <comment><USER2> Change.org sells the list of signatures for petitions (who signed what petition).</comment>


How WolframTones Works - <AUTHOR> http://tones.wolfram.com/about/how.html

<comment><USER2> Here's an article I wrote on the same topic:

<http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-camusic/>

They did an excellent job with WolframTones. Mathematica is a powerful language.

<comment><USER3> Paul,

This is an excellent article! Perchance have you examined some of the code in Csound?

<comment><USER2> Sarosh,

Thanks!

I know about Csound, but I've never actually used it. Lately I've been playing around with Common Music, which is written in Lisp and has a Lisp API.

Now that Mathematica supports MIDI, I want to do some music programming in Mathematica also.

Here's a site I maintain on music programming, by the way:

<http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/spaces/algomusic>

Paul</comment></comment></comment>


How China's 'Unicorns' Shook a Bicycle Town - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/27/business/china-bike-sharing-unicorns.html <comment><USER2> Man, what a waste of world resources. Not just all those abandoned bikes, but whole brand new apartment buildings as well.

Reminds me of this article from last year on the abandoned bikes, which has some incredible photos: [https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/03/bike-share- oversup...](https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/03/bike-share-oversupply- in-china-huge-piles-of-abandoned-and-broken-bicycles/556268/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Will companies making electric scooters be next to be hit by a slowdown in "micromobility" demand or do we expect scooter rental (and sales) to be a sustainable business?

<comment><USER4> I can't claim I have a very good track record of looking into the future, but, I'd be really surprised if scooter rental (and sales) turn out to be a sustainable business in more than just a few random cities.

<comment><USER5> Scooter and other electric micro vehicle sales are probably only going to increase. Rental is always going to be an issue. Bicycles have been around a very long time and yet rental of them has generally only been sustainable in small tourist hotspots where people are cycling on established sightseeing routes. In big cities they are trashed or stolen.

<comment> semi-extrinsic It seems like most flat cities (and even some hilly ones) in Europe have successful city bike programs running, no?

<comment><USER5> Where I am in the UK we have a large city bike program. The majority of people I see riding them are riding 'liberated' ones, which are now more numerous than ones that can be paid for. Whether you consider this to be a failure depends on your viewpoint, but from a commercial standpoint I suspect they will be running at a loss.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> A birds eye view of the catastrophe (yes, I believe that is the correct word):

[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/may/01/unexp...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/may/01/unexpected- beauty-china-bicycle-graveyards-share-bikes-in-pictures)

</comment><comment><USER7> dockless bikes are very handy, especially if you're a tourist.

but God, it is annoying when there are many and left everywhere on the sidewalk.

<comment><USER3> I think the prices for bike sharing are absolutely unsustainable and so I'm not surprised about the collapse of the market for rental bikes. A bike that is kept outdoors needs 0.5h per week of maintenance and I don't see that possible at current prices and with bikes not being in a central location.

<comment><USER8> I used to keep my bike outside and it went a couple of years with no maintenance to speak of. Maybe some tyre pumping. As long as the bikes are not vandalised / stolen / chucked in canals etc I think the economics could work.

<comment><USER3> In what climate? Having lived in UK, Germany and the US East Coast with rain and snow, it would not have worked for me and bikes that are used a lot by people who are not careful.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Revisiting the Value of Elite Colleges - <AUTHOR> http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/revisiting-the-value-of-elite-colleges/

<comment><AUTHOR> The comment of the economics professor who conducted the new study:

"My advice to elite colleges: Recognize that the most disadvantaged students benefit most from your instruction. Set financial aid and admission policies accordingly."

<comment><USER2> Not likely. The only reason the elite colleges are elite is because they try their best to only admit the students who will be helped the least.

<comment><USER3> In the past five years, Ivy League schools have massively increased financial aid to make tuition negligible for students of median (or lower) income families in the USA.

There will always be a "legacy super class" contingent, and much has been written about why this is good overall (1. it helps the school stay funded; 2. it is good for morale to have the bottom quartile of GPA be filled with people who are happy there), but elite schools are not exclusivly upper-class in this century.

Also, it is worth noting that Ivy League schools go to extreme efforts to democratize and "socialismise" their student bodies, through dormitory and dining and academic arrangements, much more deeply and intentionally than public schools.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Slightly more technical detail from the paper: Essentially, the paper uses the instrumental variable[1] of "which colleges did you apply to" to create a rough metric of applicant-confidence/pedigree. They then find that this indicator better explains an earnings gap between college graduates than simply looking at which college you attended.

Namely, the simple fact that you thought you were good enough for MIT (even though you may have been rejected and went to a slightly worse school) is a larger predictor of future success than actually going to MIT.

Where this assumption doesn't hold is for minority students though. I won't get into that because its complicated and I'm not sure I fully understand the subtleties there. But focusing on the main point; I think the conclusion would resonate very well with the HN community: that simply applying to top tier schools boosts your expected income because it reflects something innate about you --- some kind of self-confidence that helps you throughout life.

This seems similar to a study[2], which I believe (I am going by memory here and this was a while ago) was discussed in Steven Levitt's Freakonomics[3], where the authors found that in places with really crummy schools; where sometimes there were lotteries to get into charter/magnet/better schools; that people who won the lottery didn't have better outcomes than people who lost the lottery. The theory was that the lottery outcome didn't matter so much as _entering_ the lottery: because entering the lottery signified that the student had parents who cared enough about your education to enter you in the lottery... And in the long run this matters far more than going to a better school. All in all, a cool use of instrumental variables for the inner academic-economics nerd in me.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_variable>

[2] <http://papers.nber.org/papers/w13443>

[3] Going off on a tangent here, Levitt really took the study of various previously unmeasurable phenomena via the use of instrumental variables to a new level. Some people argue as to the merits of this technique and whether it actually is very insightful. Critics deride it as statistical sophistry taken to the point of being almost useless in assigning causal inferences. I'm somewhat torn. I spent a while reading tonnes of instrumental variable studies, and while there are a significant set that are confusing and probably not very useful, it does seem on average a legitimate statistical technique, albeit with very subtle problems that need to be handled well. For more on this controversy, there is [4], [5], [6]. While this is a completely irrelevant tangent to the article, I thought it useful to see and think about a side of economics that is unrelated to the recent financial mess that macroeconomists are taking a lot of flack for.

[4] A hit piece on Levitt in the New Republic: [http://www2.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=b654079c-3fc...](http://www2.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=b654079c-3fc5-4e6b-bb03-60ab5f5fd859)

[5] Greg Mankiw's (Harvard Economist) take on it: [http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-steve-levitt- ruini...](http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-steve-levitt-ruining- economics.html)

[6] Levitt's reply, including mention of Mankiw's analysis: [http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/am-i- ruinin...](http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/am-i-ruining- economics-or-not/)

<comment><USER3> I would love for you to rewrite the Instrumental Variable Wikipedia page's intro to make it comprehensible.</comment></comment>


Search via Https - <AUTHOR> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=&t=r

<comment><USER2> SSL also prevents webmasters from tracking the keywords used by the searchers, since the referrer is blank.

This can be a useful privacy feature, in addition to the encryption.

<comment><AUTHOR> It's quickly becoming my favorite engine. I actually get pretty good results from it. The addition of SSL only makes it better.</comment></comment>


Find/Post Freelance Jobs (Programming and non-programming) Online - <AUTHOR> http://www.getafreelancer.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> A friend of mine wanted to know if I knew anything about this link. I didn't so I posted it here. Anyone heard anything bad/good?

Looks a lot like <http://textbroker.com>

<comment><USER2> It's one of a thousand "lance" sites just like it, where Indian high school students fight over the chance to build you the next Facebook for $150. The quality of the work you'll get from one of those sites is terrible. If you're going to consider using it, I'd suggest hiring 3 separate developers in parallel, in the hopes that one of them may actually deliver something usable.

If you're a developer, you probably shouldn't waste your time looking for work there, unless you're prepared to compete on price with the $7/hour crowd.

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah, he (as well as me) is a developer looking to score a few bucks here and there. He lives in China, doesn't get much work locally.</comment></comment></comment>


NNSA/U.S Air Force complete test of non-nuclear B61-12 nuclear gravity bomb - <AUTHOR> http://nnsa.energy.gov/mediaroom/pressreleases/b61-b61-12-lep-life-extension-program-snl-lanl-sandia-national-laboratory <comment><USER2> I ran into this article as well, but don't understand. What does this mean exactly?</comment>


Socratic Fishing in Lake Quora - <AUTHOR> http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/12/07/socratic-fishing-in-lake-quora/

<comment><USER2> Although Venkat doesn't mention them, reddit seems like the perfect example of a community that started out as a plaza, and with the introduction of user- created subreddits, evolved into a warren-like structure.

The article predicts that this should at least halt the "evaporative cooling" effect, as the size of the community increased. I haven't spent much time around reddit in the last few years, but is this accurate? Intuitively, it seems that separating the community by topic may also result a series of low- quality fiefdoms, where those with the most extreme views on a subject hold court.

<comment><USER3> It has, but only somewhat. Mostly people stick around because it's a nice community, I think. I tend to avoid some of the most groupthinky subreddits, which does make the experience better, but everyone's pretty much concentrated in a few corners of the plaza.</comment></comment>


What do you love in people? - <AUTHOR> http://www.ilovepeoplewho.com/ Your cure against cynicism ;) <comment><USER2> Cute, I wish I new more about the people who love people who...</comment>


EXIF orientation handling is a ghetto - <AUTHOR> http://recursive-design.com/blog/2012/07/28/exif-orientation-handling-is-a-ghetto/

<comment><USER2> Hah, this is so true. A few months ago I had to implement the simplest cases for our product (we were receiving pictures from smartphones and sometimes they'd come up rotated.)

Just finding the right documentation on what the tag actually meant was hard enough. Implementing the code - even in Python - was hard: although the implementation itself was trivial, there were some massive gotchas you had to overcome before you could get it working without relying on some image manipulation libraries that have fallen to disuse... in short, a mess.

<comment><AUTHOR> Totally. It looks like it should be straightforward, until you find out you're not sure what width and height mean anymore, and suddenly there's edge cases all over the place.</comment></comment>


Advanced civilizations should use black holes as heat sinks - <AUTHOR> http://www.weidai.com/black-holes.txt <comment><USER2> black holes emit black body radiation just like everything else though.</comment>


Night's Nirvana: On Norwegian Black Metal - <AUTHOR> https://nplusonemag.com/online-only/online-only/nights-nirvana/ <comment><USER2> I've been a Black Metal fan since first hearing Bathory in the early 90s [1] and have met maybe one other black metal fan ever in person outside of a show.

Two major stories that I have about Black Metal scene that might be illuminating.

I had heard through the grapevine that there was an obscure black metal festival deep in the woods somewhere. After digging around I found the Shadowoods metal festival [2] which turned out to be an invite only philosophically anarchist inspired one night show, now a two day festival of the most obscure "kvlt" black metal bands around. I never got the chance to go but from what I understand the best of the genre comes out to play and members of the top black metal bands in the world come to attend.

The other story is about people's reaction to black metal. I typically wear a metal shirt around, even as an undershirt and whenever someone sees one they often inquire about it. I'm even wearing my favorite Bathory shirt prominently on TechCrunch [3]! Anyway someone came up and asked me about Bathory and I enthusiastically went into the whole tale about countess Bathory bathing in blood [4] and why it inspired the band. At the end of the story the person looked totally horrified and basically turned and walked away. Typically happens when describing any black metal band.

[1] [https://youtu.be/OJeLYvc7sXk?t=8m46s](https://youtu.be/OJeLYvc7sXk?t=8m46s)

[2] [https://shadowwoodsmetalfest.com/about/](https://shadowwoodsmetalfest.com/about/)

[3] [https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/batch17...](https://tctechcrunch2011.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/batch17.jpg?w=1290)

[4] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory)

<comment><USER3> I have a bit of a trauma, regarding this whole niche thing.

10-15 years ago, I used to tell people about Meshuggah -- something like "My favorite of all time. It is the greatest thing since sliced <Cough>. Think of it as like modern jazz, but played a bit faster and heavier. I'm not that musical, I have to listen to a song dozens and dozens of times to get half of the stuff happening (I think, I probably get less). It is just efficient, you listen one minute and you get at least two or three minutes of other music."

They looked at me as if I was an idiot or was trolling them. (Both true, arguably. :-) )

Today, half of the university kids around where I am now seems to know more about Meshuggah than me. Literally. For an old favorite band.

Sigh, it is hard being a hipster when your stuff gets mainstream.

:-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Norwegian black metal gets all the attention because of the church burnings, suicides, and murders, but musically there were much better scenes, IMO. The two that I like are Greek and Czech black metal, each of which had their own distinct sound.

You could not pay me to listen to Burzum. Mayhem hit on some nice atmospheres early on, as did Darkthrone though I prefer their first album (which was death metal), but other more popular bands from Norway like Enslaved, Satyricon, Immortal, Emperor, Gorgoroth, etc. never did anything for me. A few of the more experimental bands from Norway like Ulver and Arcturus are worth checking out, but all in all black metal is not my cup of tea :)

<comment><USER5> > You could not pay me to listen to Burzum

There's no room for Nazis in metal.

<comment><USER6> _" There's no room for Nazis in metal."_

What does ones political political alignment has to do with music?

<comment><USER7> There's something to be said for the question of if one can separate the art from the artist. There's a lot of debate about it in the realm of culture theory.

That said, I've been on stage in Germany when Neo-Nazis tried to enter the venue to attend the show. The looks of legitimate distress on the attendees faces are something I won't forget. Personally, I find it really hard to separate art from artist and artist from political alignment.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> This is a really good subject - there's an interesting documentary about it called Until The Light Takes Us, which I highly recommend: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Until_the_Light_Takes_Us](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Until_the_Light_Takes_Us)

<comment><USER7> I found that Until the Light Takes Us was a bit skewed in their take on the scene. I feel like the creators had a clear thesis and highlighted only the information that backed their particular POV.

I would recommend Lords of Chaos first, as a primer: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_Chaos_(book)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lords_of_Chaos_\(book\))

Before digging into Until the Light Takes Us.

<comment><USER3> How do you guys see the interviews with Fenriz? I think most of them are on Youtube now.

He have a special place in my personal music history. I started to listen to a bit extreme metal in the 90s and was a bit shocked by my own taste. From the early Metallica to death metal, it got steadily more extreme.

The limit was Darkthrone -- I got an album and (at least at the time) I felt physically sick if I used headphones! Years later, I saw that series of youtube interviews with Fenriz, discussing the music. He was so knowledgeable and, more or less, dismissed most genres I love in metal (Meshuggah, Nile, etc) as not really that interesting. :-)

These days, I can enjoy the early Darkthrone stuff, but it was a funny reality check to realize early that I'm not really that metal, I just like the music. :-)

<comment><USER7> I've always thought Fenriz comes across just like any elitist music nerd. He seems to have an interesting sense of humour, which I find kind of endearing.

The first album, for me, that gave me that physically sick feeling like you describe was Portal's Vexovoid record. We can debate whether or not Portal fits into the general category of Black Metal, but damn that album is just frightening.

<comment><USER9> There is something perplexing about Portal in that way that only a few other bands (Deathspell Omega, Blut Aus Nord) have been able to match IMO. I don't know that I've reached the "physically sick" state but I do find myself transported into something akin to a Lovecraftian world and sense of darkness. Some records, while enjoyable, can be physically exhausting for sure.

Something about Portal reaches deep. It's odd because I'm not necessarily a huge fan of their music in terms of just listening to it as music, but I like how there's something exhaustively serene (in a twisted way) about the atmosphere, like a dark meditation/trance almost.

<comment><USER7> Very well put!

Portal's whole aesthetic plus the music really creates this inexplicable atmosphere, what I picture as if I had been tapped into the degrading mental state of Jack Torrance.

Deathspell Omega is a band that I can't get enough of. I remember listening to Si monvmentvm reqvires, circvmspice during an overnight drive from Halifax, NS to Sydney, NS and just experiencing moments of fear or sheer terror. Something that I can't say that any other album has done for me.

The new Deathspell Omega record is brilliant. IMHO they are at the forefront of current Black Metal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> The word "satanic" or "satanism" appears 10 times in the article, several times in the context of black metal acts. From what I had gathered from watching the couple of documentaries and books mentioned in the comments, the Norwegian black metal acts that made headlines for their criminal acts were not "satanists" as they rejected christianity altogether.</comment>


Would you buy a Google Pixel 2 if LG or HTC made them? - user-on1 Given all this...<p>https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topicsearch/nexus$205x$20hardware$20issues https://productforums.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!msg/nexus/G_0s70PzK_s/YgxRK3u4CAAJ https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topicsearch/nexus$209$20hardware$20issues https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/nexus/ZDSSZQQdKSA;context-place=topicsearch/nexus$209$20screen$20freeze$20issue <comment><AUTHOR> I can't speak for HTC but I've had bad experiences with LG phones. Bootlooping issues and the manufacturer would not fix for free because it had a cracked screen (which cracked from heat changes in the summer, not from abuse). I can't remember the cost exactly but the screen fix was pretty expensive.

I wouldn't buy anything they make after that experience.</comment>