Chelsea Manning sent back to jail after refusing to testify before a grand jury - <AUTHOR> https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/16/politics/chelsea-manning-back-to-jail/index.html <comment><USER2> Seriously? The article and the previous one linked really don't explain her objections to the grand jury system and I have to do my own research to figure that out?

What comically bad coverage. How do you write an article about someone having objections to something (esp of this magnitude) without explaining what their objections are nor what that thing even is?

I have nfi what a grand jury is without further research, so neither do 90% of people reading the article. Probably because explaining it alone outs it as a ridiculous, self-evidently awful system, and CNN wouldn't want to do that.

<comment><USER3> Here's the Washington Post article: [https://wapo.st/2W98fyO](https://wapo.st/2W98fyO)

The last time I linked to a WaPo article on Chelsea Manning (the last time she was jailed) a mod changed the link so if you find a more informative article you can always post a link and it might be changed.

I don't actually find this to be vastly different in content than the OP but it does seem to give a little more exposition and a little less in terms of boilerplate statements from the attorneys.

Here are some cherry-picked excerpts:

> Manning has offered multiple reasons for refusing to testify, but > fundamentally says she considers the whole grand jury process to be > unacceptable.

> [The judge] said he hopes that while incarcerated "Ms. Manning would reflect > on the principles she says she's embracing ... and whether those views are > worth the price she's paying for them."

> Manning herself told the judge directly: "I would rather starve to death > than change my principles in this regard."

<comment><USER4> To expand a little, I think the biggest issue that Chelsea has with a grand jury is that the entire process is sealed. If it were a public hearing then she would be much more likely to testify, because we would know what was asked, what was answered, and we would know what this entire process is about.

We only assume that this grand jury is about Julian Assange (because what else would Chelsea's testimony be relevant for?), but we actually don't know. This could be a political witch hunt for any variety of reasons, and we might never find out. An opaque justice system is probably not a good thing, since we just have to trust that the people in charge will do the right thing- and we have seen countless times throughout history that the people in charge often do the wrong thing and attempt to cover it up.

<comment><USER5> That makes sense, because a public one sided show trial definitely couldn't be abused by prosecutors to smear people they have no intent of indicting. Is that actually a position people really believe?

<comment><USER4> At least a public deposition would allow people to come to their own conclusion. If Chelsea felt that public questioning was one sided and a smear campaign then she could release a statement afterwards filling in the context and pointing out the other side of the story.

With a grand jury it is illegal to discuss anything, so a one sided smear campaign during a grand jury can lead to an indictment and Chelsea would have no opportunity to offer her side of the story without risking more jail time.

<comment><USER6> > With a grand jury it is illegal to discuss anything

No, it is not; grand jury secrecy rules apply to attorneys, court officials, grand jurors, and government staff to whom material is disclosed to assist attorneys, but not to witnesses called before the grand jury.

So, actually, not only would Manning be allowed to present her side of the story, no one with actual knowledge of her time before the grand jury would be allowed to contradict it.

<comment><USER5> Additionally, it's pretty nonsensical to claim that prosecutors will use public show trials to smear opponents, but allowing them to publicly smear opponents would make the proceeding more fair?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I'm constantly impressed with how brave she is, I'm not sure I would be this strong under this much pressure.

We seem to have completely lost our way at this point, I thought jail was to protect the public not persecute political prisoners to build trumped up charges against your enemies and journalists in general. It feels like we'll be really lucky if our rights and freedoms survive over the next little time and Chelsea Manning is at the forefront of this atrophy. It doesn't seem very easy to save them especially with the politicisation of the Supreme Court.

How do we fight these things?

<comment><USER8> You can't lump one thing with another. In this case there is a law that says you must do what a judge orders. That applies to anyone under scrutiny from the justice system.

<comment><USER9> Could she just testify and say "I don't remember." and "I don't understand." all the time?

That's pretty much what all CEOs and such do when they are testifying.

<comment><USER10> That's weaseling out. She isn't doing that here even though she could. She just doesn't want to do that because I imagine she is principled. That's honorable.

<comment><USER9> I don't argue with that.

But that's one silly law that judge can compel you to talk but you can easily weasel your way out of it by saying things that might be true and give no information.

I think such law shouldn't exist as it can only harm only truthful, principled people but can do nothing to any wrongdoer.

<comment><USER11> In principle, wrongdoers always have more options available than moral people. Because being moral prevents you from using some ways that would be considered immoral, while the wrongdoers don't have those restrictions, therefore can and will weasel out. In the movies the good side wins even despite this limitation, then heroes are celebrated for their morality and bravery, but in the real life... well...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> >> __Today, Chelsea was not only put back in jail, but Judge Anthony Trenga ordered her to be fined $500 every day she is in custody after 30 days and $1,000 every day she is in custody after 60 days. This is unprecedented.

[https://twitter.com/xychelsea/status/1129158920499605504](https://twitter.com/xychelsea/status/1129158920499605504)

Wtf....

<comment><USER13> It's actually fairly common when being held in contempt.

Judges in America have an egregious amount of power.

<comment><USER14> I'm actually pretty confused; does the USA not have a law that protects an individuals right not to testify if they'd incriminate themselves by doing so? That's seen as a pretty fundamental thing where I live.

<comment><USER15> The U.S. certainly does. It's set out in the Fifth Amendment to our Constitution.

In this instance, however, Chelsea Manning has been given immunity from prosecution -- meaning she can't "plead the Fifth".

<comment><USER16> There is that, but it's also a grand jury. There technically isn't any jeopardy there, they convene and recommend what a prosecutor should do and it's all supposed to be secret with pretty strict punishment for violating that.

Fair or not, this is an interesting stand to take.

<comment><USER17> Because the hearing is secret. If you even show up, they could claim you said anything, do anything they want based on that made up testimony.

By even showing up, you are putting yourself at risk from people thinking you snitched.

<comment><USER5> >If you even show up, they could claim you said anything, do anything they want based on that made up testimony.

I'd be interested in reading your proof of this, because I'm fairly certain you just made this up.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Sounds like desperation is setting in for the prosecution, doesn't it? Secret proceedings, torturing witnesses...

At least they're competent, right? Except the part where they accidentally leaked secret information with cut and paste errors of court documents, that was pretty Mr Bean.

<comment><USER19> just remember, many of the same people here would be cheering on the Justice Department for using similar tactics against people they don't like. You can see it in the comments all the time.

That is why Justice can get away with it. They should be prevented completely from being able to use these tactics. The outrageous fines, the outrageous costs to defend against them which even some well off cannot afford, and the use of the press to twist the message to their liking.

Until we realize that everyone deserves the same treatment we will never change the system.

<comment><USER20> Thank you for saying this. If it was Alex Jones in jail for the same reasons, you can bet folks would be cheering.

<comment><USER18> Glenn Greenwald would not. My politics and Glenn's are very different but one of the reasons I respect him is his steadfast commitment to principle especially when it applies to people you loathe. Read Glenn, disagree, sure, I do often. But read Glenn.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> I occasionally make comments supporting the basic actions of the government based on the data available which are wildly unpopular.

This time something different: why do people support Manning's decision / find her treatment inappropriate?

Respect for sticking up for beliefs? I get that and share those feelings even if I don't share the specific beliefs.

But do people feel the 5th Amendment covers "incriminating" yourself after you've been convicted and served time (and don't have any risk of further convictions)?

Do people want the 5th to include incriminating people you like?

What specifically about the grand jury system in place here do you think is problematic or unconstitutional?

<comment><USER22> Often there is a widely held, low-resolution understanding of the constitution, and when you get into the high-resolution details there are exceptions that seem like the complete opposite of the widely held understanding.

For example, a naive reading of the commerce clause would say the fact Congress can regulate commerce among the states would not apply to a farmer growing wheat to feed animals on his own farm. But surprise! Wickard v. Filburn [1] says that counts as interstate commerce.

Likewise, the low-resolution understanding of the fifth amendment is that you can't be forced to testify; and the low-resolution understanding of being granted immunity for something is you can't be sent to jail for reasons related to it. And yet, here we are.

A lot of Americans like the constitution - so much so, everyone in congress and the military and suchlike swears an oath to uphold and defend it. When people see these things that are a reversal of what they understand the constitution to say, it's understandable they don't like it.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn)

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> She has all my respect. Congratulations for fighting for our freedom.

</comment><comment><USER24> I am so disgusted by this I have no words. Where is the outrage? Why aren't people marching on the streets?

<comment><USER25> All she has to do is testify. She's doing this to herself. She's not the one being charged here.

<comment><USER26> Ironic username is ironic.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> the grand jury system makes a mockery of the US justice system.

<comment><USER28> Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I don't see any mention of an offer of immunity.

If I didn't have immunity, you can be damn sure I wouldn't be answering any questions on a subject that might get me prosecuted again.

<comment><USER30> > We "never once made this about anything other than obtaining immunized > testimony in furtherance of an investigation," he said, adding that "all we > want is her to truthfully answer questions as our constitutional republic > requires of our citizens."

Immunity does appear to be on the table as part of the request, though I'm not sure why you would browbeat someone into testifying with jailtime and threats that amount to bankruptcy if you aren't seeking to entrap them in some fashion.

<comment><USER31> The public has a claim to every person's evidence.

If a person has evidence that a court of law wishes to obtain, under American law the court is permitted to compel immunized testimony. Someone who refuses to comply is likely to be treated as someone who has committed an act of contempt of court.

Chelsea Manning isn't special here. Anyone who refuses to testify before a grand jury is likely to be treated this way. There's no need to postulate that it's a further attempt to punish someone for political reasons to explain all events here.

<comment><USER30> I don't see any need to call her as a witness here.

Her testimony is on file, and some parts of it are even a matter of public record. She has already extensively testified in the past.

In most court cases, there is a wish to limit the number of witnesses in a case. Where you can take testimony by reports, affidavits, and other records, you take it, as it speeds up the process considerably.

The only reason to call Manning is if you believe that you can show that new testimony conflicts with old testimony.

<comment><USER32> So she is not testifying because she doesn't want to repeat herself? That seems silly. No, there is something she doesn't want to say, because it would incriminate someone she doesn't want to incriminate. I doubt it's herself.

<comment><USER30> I haven't expressed any opinion on why Manning has made the choices they have. I may or may not agree.

I have questions for the court, because they have chosen to act in a way that doesn't seem to follow standard procedure. My query is one of legal practice.

<comment><USER32> You stated that the only reason they seek testimony is to entrap her. If that would be true, that leaves two options: Either she would say the same thing as before, because that was the full story. What is the reason than for not doing so except that she doesn't want to repeat herself? Or she fears that she would fall into that trap (which I'm not sure could exist because of double jeopardy / immunized testimony).

But it's a wrong dichotomy. It's more likely the judge suspects that she knows something incriminating about somebody else, maybe Julian, she doesn't want to tell. Which answers your question about legal practice.

<comment><USER30> Immunised testimony is only covers certain events.

Seeking new testimony when complete testimony is already on file, leaves open the door to parallel construction of unrelated cases. The witness may be convinced to say something that violates the terms of previous deals.

If the judge truly believes her testimony might aid in convicting Assange they have no reason not to already use the extensive testimony on file. Manning has already been extensively interrogated about Assange, for a number of years. The court has those filings available to it.

There is no reason to expect that new testimony with new evidence is available.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Maybe she should try to become a politician after this experience. It seems that they are the only allowed to do anything they want and get away with it.

<comment><USER34> Well, she already tryied [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning#U.S._Senate_ca...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning#U.S._Senate_candidacy)

</comment></comment><comment> iso-8859-1 "There's nothing dishonorable in fulfilling your obligation as a United States citizen,"

So if she wasn't a US citizen, how would this be different?</comment>


Montage of people refusing border patrol inspections [video] - <AUTHOR> http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/26/enjoy-this-montage-of-people-refusing-to

<comment><USER2> I'm a Canadian citizen so forgive my ignorance.

Is it really not a requirement to answer "Are you a citizen" or "Of which citizen are you a country"?

It seems like from the video that the agents need reasonable suspicion that one is not a citizen? What constitutes reasonable suspicion of not being a citizen? An accent? Skin tone?

Do I have the same rights if I'm a foreign national?

<comment><AUTHOR> Hi,

Here's more information about the rights of US citizens: [http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights- racial...](http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform-immigrants-rights-racial- justice/know-your-rights-what-do-if-you)

(I know the ACLU can be biased in their views on constitutional questions, but think the answer truthful.)

In general, you don't have to answer questions about your immigration status, though, as the link notes, different "rules apply at international borders and airports, and for individuals on certain nonimmigrant visas, including tourists and business travelers."</comment></comment>


I have to say that after being an app developer on Facebook... - <AUTHOR> http://mattmaroon.com/2009/03/20/664/ <comment><USER2> Is there a way they could test improvements without pushing them on 150 million users? I have to imagine they already have some internal testing process.

What's a good practice?

Also, Matt, love the new site theme. I think I've been convinced to finally give up white on black (Except for my terminal. It'll be a cold day in hell before those design nazis convince me to change the colors on my terminal).

<comment><USER3> Well, the problem isn't the scope. The test would have just told them that a lot of people would complain they didn't like it, which they probably already knew. A lot of people will do that with a good change or a bad one. What they need to find out is if it will make their site into something bigger in the long run, the way the mini feed and such did. I don't really see how you can test that, because you're looking for something that is at best hard to quantify and at worst impossible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Leave it to Matt to always go against the grain of conventional wisdom.

I definitely agree that Facebook has balls pulling out this redesign but I do not agree that the design is for the better.

My thoughts on the new facebook homepage: [http://blog.clutterme.com/2009/03/thoughts-on-new- facebook-h...](http://blog.clutterme.com/2009/03/thoughts-on-new-facebook- homepage.html)

        * It's going to stink for apps.
        * Facebook is killing its own page views

On the converse side, the redesign is a definite upper for brands and the visibility of their pages:

Mashable talks about some of the effects that the redesign has had on its Facebook Page, <http://mashable.com/2009/03/19/new-facebook-brands/>

<comment><USER5>
        * It's going to stink for apps.

Apps stunk for the user experience anyway. They were an experiment gone horribly wrong.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Would it be impossible for webapps to just have different interface versions always available? Like if I really liked something about the very first release, I should be able to roll back to that version and use that. We should all be able to use the interface that we like the most and upgrade as we see fit.

<comment><USER7> It's possible but you have to jump through quite a few hoops to do it. The web isn't built for this unfortunately...

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I'm sorry, but does that page say anything ? All I saw was solid black with some dark gray smudges ...

It's about design, you say ? Curious ...

<comment><USER8> (Thanks for changing the theme, Matt. I'll send you the bill for the points I got docked here for the snark ;-)

Well, now that I read it, I might as well comment: fine, keeping still kills you. But the Google-leaving Douglas Bowman hit the nail: you can either hope a designer does an Apple-class job, or you take the stolid measure-twice, cut- once engineering approach. And it's a matter of company DNA.

Plus, what if the designer lands you with dark-grey-on-black ?</comment></comment>


Solitude and Leadership (2010) - <AUTHOR> https://theamericanscholar.org/solitude-and-leadership/#.XVp6cegzaUk <comment><USER2> A bunch of small threads:

2018 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17385586](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17385586)

2015 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10073663](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10073663)

2012 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4453300](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4453300)

2011 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2568945](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2568945)

2011 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2110779](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2110779)

2010 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1195641](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1195641)

and one larger one:

2010 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1476425](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1476425)

<comment><USER3> How long would it take you to automate this process and pin it to the top or side?

Date/#comments

<comment><USER2> Probably until we get AGI, since I looked at the threads and decided which ones were interesting. It's often the case that several searches are involved, too; not just matching identical URLs.

Software could certainly help, though.

<comment><USER4> You could probably just have a dumb bot post all prior links to the submitted URL with # of upvotes and comments for each one, then leave it to the readers to sort through which are interesting. I'm sure you'd get at least some folks digging through and reposing interesting/informative comments from previous discussions, helping stimulate the current discussion. Not perfect but good enough and relatively simple.

<comment><USER2> Totally agree! but then the question becomes how to fit that in the UI in a way that doesn't break HN's minimalism.

<comment><USER4> Just have the bot post it as a comment in the new post's thread? Optionally sticky that comment, but probably not necessary, it will probably be voted near the top.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> >perhaps the finest soldier of his generation, General David Petraeus...

I thought this article was working its way up to some profound statement, then I read this. Petraeus represents everything wrong with the modern leadership caste of America. He was a brown nosing, social climbing, rat-faced paper pushing _apparatchik_ who never served in combat, screwed up Mosul, screwed up the rest of Iraq, then took credit for our massive "success" there, and proceeded to "lead" the CENTCOM by issuing press releases his lizard overlords told him to. Then he proceeded to "win" in Afghanistan (note sarcasm since we're still bloody there), take over the CIA (overseeing one of the greatest intelligence disasters of a recent US history littered with them: Benghazi), and get caught with his dong in his nitwit hagiographer, exposing classified information while he was at it to boot. He never showed any character or depth of thought, but he was a genius at handling the media, which is pretty much exactly the primary "leadership" characteristic of the modern era. Bleauch. Patton was an American leader. Petraeus will be forgotten as thoroughly as Gideon Pillow, excepting as a cautionary tale of who not to hire to pacify foreign polities when your empire is in the late Brezhnev stage of decomposition.

Anyway, yes, I am pretty sure Napoleon and Alexander the Great took long walks, and thought about things deeply. I'm not sure I want such people around, but I sure as shit don't want to hear about ding dongs like Petraeus being worthy of emulation because the dude might have read a book once.

<comment><USER4> Dude, he spent 3 paragraphs on Petreaus. The whole article is 50 paragraphs. Petraeus may be a bad example but the article itself is good. Try not to completely derail the substance by fixating on one mistaken example.

The TLDR is - in order to escape group think and develop an original, authentic, foresightful understanding of our world, we need periods of solitude and reflection (and essentially forms of deep work though he doesn't use that term), away from the constant stream of informational noise of modern life.

<comment><USER5> Look, they didn't even make a case for why Petreaus had anything to do with anything else in this rambling, disjointed, largely useless article. Using a ding dong like that as the sole non-fictional example of "Leadership" pretty much invalidates anything the yoyo author said. Though he did get me to reread "Heart of Darkness" last night, so I got something out of it.

Honestly if you want actionable examples of actual leadership, any example from Plutarch's lives is going to be more informative than 50 paragraphs of hokum from some guy who makes his living flattering people who went to Yalevard (he apparently wrote a whole book filled with this crap).</comment></comment></comment>


Visualize Twitter connections with Twings - <AUTHOR> http://workshop.rs/2011/04/visualize-twitter-connections-with-twings/ <comment><USER2> Wow, that is friggin awesome! I just lost a while exploring my Twitterverse. Well done.</comment>


Ask HN: Single startup founder how do you stay motivated? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> I don't think we should stay alone.

I have been doing this mistake for too long to be honest. Now one of the best focus I've is literally speaking with the client directly and having a bunch of people who do not specifically work on the project but follow me in my adventure by coaching me.

I can't remember the article, but I read somewhere on HN that a good way to start being a consultant in the tech world is to stop selling your code.

I figured that it is just the same going from TMA to SASS except you are now renting the code instead of selling it.

So:

      - Learning new things
      - Thrive for the ability to put into question anything properly
      - Getting people around that understand what you are trying to do (CUT down those that are toxic, not those that might just have a different opinion, this is the hard part where you need to be able to put your ego aside and where picking the right persons will help a lot)
      - Go meet your clients !
      - Do not follow trends

<comment><USER2> Oh and try new stuff

<comment><USER2> and don't take everything literally

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER3> Find a garden and a stream. When you get thirsty, you go to the stream and drink some inspiration. When you get hungry, you go to the garden, pick and eat fruits of motivation.</comment>


Software Gets the World to Stop (Over) Eating - <AUTHOR> http://a16z.com/2014/04/09/omada-health-behavior-change/

<comment><USER2> does anyone have a recommendation for a good wireless weight tracker? i would appreciate the following features:

\- multi user support \- ability to extract raw data \- android support and web dashboard</comment>


$12-Million-A-Month iOS Game - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/08/15/natural-motion/

<comment><USER2> Or, really, "An iOS game that had a single $12M month"

Sustaining that through the year is mathematically impossible.

<comment><USER3> I know, it's as much a study of techcrunch's sensationalism as anything else - the app has only been available for 6 weeks!

A very interesting case of the freemium model and in-app sales (up to $60) working very well, though.

I know what you mean about sustainability, but with the right publicity (it's all been word of mouth so far) and development it could have its 15 minutes in the limelight and that's really all you need when the ROI is as good as this. I was reading the comments on here by a seasoned app developer earlier today and thought this would be interesting to watch developing over time as a test case (whether they roll it out in other markets/languages/etc).

[Edit: thread I mention <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4389468>]</comment></comment>


New Clues in Robin Williams' Final Hours [Lewy body dementia?] (video) - <AUTHOR> http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/clues-robin-williams-final-hours-26846816

<comment><AUTHOR> A source close to Williams's family is quoted as saying, "correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation, but it was illuminating, yes."</comment>


NASA Spots Structure at the Edge of the Solar System - <AUTHOR> https://differentimpulse.com/nasa-spots-structure-at-the-edge-of-the-solar-system/ <comment><USER2> Hopefully the new satellite spots Planet X soon as well</comment>


Icdiff: Side-by-side highlighted command line diffs - <AUTHOR> https://www.jefftk.com/icdiff <comment><USER2> Another little known diff power tool:

        vim -d old.txt new.txt

This will open two files in diff mode. You can then use a whole host of fancy keybindings to edit the two files in a diff-aware way ("apply this hunk to that file" / manually edit a file and then re-render the diff / "fold or expand all non-hunk text" / etc.). For more:

        :help diff

or see here [https://neovim.io/doc/user/diff.html](https://neovim.io/doc/user/diff.html)

<comment><USER3> I am a big fan of the patchreview plugin, I use it every day. It opens a multifile diff (e.g. git diff patch output) each file in a vim tab.

[https://github.com/junkblocker/patchreview- vim](https://github.com/junkblocker/patchreview-vim)

$ gvim -c"DiffReview git diff origin/master"

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> A similar tool that I really like is meld ([https://meldmerge.org/](https://meldmerge.org/)). It has a GUI, really nice visual indicators, allows you to view the entire file and directory trees and you can jump between diff chunks using alt + arrow up/down.

I often use it with git:

git difftool -t meld -d

<comment><USER5> How is that similar? It's a GUI. There's a zillion GUI diff tools but very few console ones. icdiff is the only side by side CLI diff tools I have seen.

<comment><USER6> sdiff has been around forever:

[https://linux.die.net/man/1/sdiff](https://linux.die.net/man/1/sdiff)

It's not a three-way diff and not highlighted however. (icdiff doesn't seem to be a three-way diff either.)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Delta is a similar tool with syntax highlighting for most programming languages and customizable themes:

[https://github.com/dandavison/delta](https://github.com/dandavison/delta)

It doesn't have side-by-side diffs, but it's still well worth having around.

It's a Unix filter, so it works on any unified diff you can come up with.

Its default output isn't a unified diff, but that's easy to fix with its configuration / CLI options (I'm too used to reading unified diffs to like delta's simplified default format).

</comment><comment><USER8> This looks nice, but is it very different from gnu(?) diff --color=always --side-by-side?

<comment><USER9> Could you share a screenshot? When I run GNU diff with --side-by-side, it seems that --color=always is ignored: [https://www.jefftk.com/gnudiff-color- always-side-by-side.png](https://www.jefftk.com/gnudiff-color-always-side-by- side.png)

<comment><USER8> [https://postimg.cc/4Y2Jh6pz](https://postimg.cc/4Y2Jh6pz)

<comment><USER9> Thanks! After playing with diff --color=always --side-by-side more, it looks like it colors inserted and deleted lines but not changed lines: [https://www.jefftk.com/icdiff-vs-diff-color-always-side- by-s...](https://www.jefftk.com/icdiff-vs-diff-color-always-side-by-side.png)

(And it still doesn't find changes within a line)

<comment><USER8> I think, for changes within a line, wdiff would be the usual tool - but even if it's possible to pipe that through colordiff - I don't think there's a side-by-side mode for wdiff.

But yeah, I see that in-line highlighting of changes can be helpful sometimes :)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> I've been using `alias diff=colordiff` for maybe twenty years. Looks like icdiff can highlight small changes without needing to call out the whole line. Is there anything else new this one brings?

<comment><USER9> Screenshots:

* colordiff -y: [https://www.jefftk.com/colordiff-y-example-simple.png](https://www.jefftk.com/colordiff-y-example-simple.png)

* icdiff: [https://www.jefftk.com/icdiff-example-simple.png](https://www.jefftk.com/icdiff-example-simple.png)

The two main differences I see are that icdiff can highlight the affected portions of lines, and that icdiff makes better use of horizontal space.

<comment><USER10> I see. Also, I'd configured colordiff to use green and red as well.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> If you're used to Git's diff view and want to use it for any two files outside of a repo, you can do

        $ git diff --no-index file_a file_b

</comment><comment><USER12> colordiff -y [[https://www.colordiff.org/](https://www.colordiff.org/)] has similar functionality.

<comment><USER13> Another alternative: Kitty-diff

It's terminal specific as it uses kitty's graphics extensions but it looks really IMHO.

[https://sw.kovidgoyal.net/kitty/kittens/diff.html](https://sw.kovidgoyal.net/kitty/kittens/diff.html)

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> This is a really useful utility. This post explains how to use it with mercurial for better diffs:

[https://ianobermiller.com/blog/2016/07/14/side-by-side- diffs...](https://ianobermiller.com/blog/2016/07/14/side-by-side-diffs-for- mercurial-hg-icdiff-revisited/)

</comment><comment><USER15> I like diffoscope's side-by-side HTML diffs of arbitrary files/dirs, for eg:

[https://diffoscope.org/](https://diffoscope.org/) [https://diffoscope.org/examples/https- everywhere-5.0.6_vs_5....](https://diffoscope.org/examples/https- everywhere-5.0.6_vs_5.0.7.html)

</comment><comment><USER16> I wish Icdiff had syntax highlighting for common programming languages.

<comment><USER5> Wouldn't the syntax coloring interfere with the diff coloring? Is there an example of a tool that does both?

<comment><USER17> At least one of the other tools in this thread does both. (Rather than visualising add/rm with the foreground, it's visualised with the background colour). [https://github.com/dandavison/delta](https://github.com/dandavison/delta)

<comment><USER16> Yes, but delta doesn't have side-by-side diff. Is someone aware of a command line util, that has side-by-side diff and syntax highlighting? I know that Gitlab can do that.

<comment><USER18> vimdiff does that.

<comment><USER16> True, but vimdiff is a wrapper around vim, that starts the editor with pre- arranged windows. I would like to have a non-interactive stand-alone tool, that prints the syntax highlighted side-by-side to the terminal then exits and does not require you to learn vim. Maybe such a thing does not exist yet and I have to wait for delta issue #86 to happen.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Related: _diff2html_ CLI that will open your browser to a beautifully-rendered HTML diff:

[https://diff2html.xyz/](https://diff2html.xyz/)

</comment><comment><USER20> ydiff might be the tool you're looking for.

[https://github.com/ymattw/ydiff](https://github.com/ymattw/ydiff)

<comment><USER21> Ydiff is GIT aware. It made me :) recently when I needed to diff a 6 month branch divergence.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> In your experience, What's the best tool to check 3-way merge diffs under windows?

<comment><USER23> Beyond Compare

<comment><USER24> It really does live up to it's name in my opinion. Been using it for over a decade, originally in Windows but now macOS</comment></comment></comment>


Black-Scholes Option Pricing Model in Scheme - <AUTHOR> http://blog.ecounysis.com/black-scholes-option-pricing-model-in-scheme

<comment><AUTHOR> The magic numbers p and b1-b5 were obtained from approximation (2) in Bryc, W. "A uniform approximation to the right normal tail integral", Applied Mathematics and Computation, Volume 127, Issue 2-3 (April 2002), Pages 365-374. I have added links to this reference in the post if you'd like to look at it.

</comment><comment><USER2> Where do the magic numbers (p, b1-b5) come from? Are these empirically found using curve fitting?

Also, wouldn't it be better to write things like

       (+ (- (* (exp (* (- r) t)) strike) s) call)))

in a more schemer-friendly way as

      (+ call (- s) (* strike (exp (- (* r t)))))

to avoid parenthesis syndrome?

(I was probably wrong to expect self-explanatory code, e.g. with docstrings, but IMO the readability could be improved)

</comment><comment><USER3> Black-Scholes Option Pricing Model in C, from the same author:

[http://blog.ecounysis.com/black-scholes-option-pricing- model...](http://blog.ecounysis.com/black-scholes-option-pricing-model-in-c)</comment>


Technorati Quietly Killed Its Once Authoritative Blog Ranking System in May - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/insider/2014/06/23/technorati-quietly-killed-its-once-authoritative-blog-ranking-system-in-may/

<comment><USER2> I used to use Technorati occasionally. For a long time (at least a couple of years), the results of its ranking system have seemed arbitrary and unhelpful, with little relationship to other metrics of site authority.

</comment><comment><USER3> Joins the club of Netscape, AOL and Yahoo! Search

</comment><comment><USER4> I thought it died years ago - had no idea that it was still a live service.

</comment><comment><USER5> Google Blog search killed it.</comment>


Meteor.com free hosting ends March 25, 2016 - <AUTHOR> http://imgur.com/QDHW4W9 <comment><USER2> Why am I not surprised?</comment>


Optimizing Just in Time with Expression Trees - <AUTHOR> http://twistedoakstudios.com/blog/Post2540_optimizing-just-in-time-with-expression-trees

<comment><USER2> Compared to a lot of consultancy firms which simply have dry PR content in their blog, this is awesome, definitely proves the company knows it's stuff.</comment>


Zipcar left us stranded in the middle of California - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@catherine_smith/how-zipcar-left-us-stranded-in-the-middle-of-california-30e797668fdf <comment><USER2> FYI, Monterey is spelled thus. Monterrey is in Mexico.

Also, Carmel was closer than Monterey.

This limitation of Zipcar is perplexing. I've driven hundreds of miles outside of cellular service in Enterprise rental vehicles with no limitations whatsoever.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey, thanks for the edits!

We thought Monterey would've had more options for Lyft / Uber than Carmel.

Yeah, I agree it's perplexing. And there's very little info online explaining why this could've happened.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Is it clear if the lack of reception is what caused it to not start in the first place?

<comment><AUTHOR> You're right, it wasn't, and still isn't clear. I've edited the story to reflect that.</comment></comment>


Show HN: I built this program to show your friends Facebook relationship history - <AUTHOR> http://www.whosontherebound.com/?

<comment><USER2> While I won't use this for myself I'm curious how you get their history. Do you just drag each friend's stream and then look for the changed status?

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, basically. The Facebook API was not really designed for this, and it turns out the Facebook API has bugs that make it pretty difficult to actually do. But that's the basic idea, yes.

<comment><USER3> Cool concept. I got a whole lot of "friends info is restricted" but the concept as a whole is pretty neat. I think there's an opportunity for someone to use the Facebook API as a whole and completely flip upside down the concept of online dating. Privacy concerns throw a wrench in the plans but if you can get around those; you could definitely have something with the use of the social graph..

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hmm. Tested this and one of the girls in the results was my younger sister... Cool idea and design, but results seriously need some work.</comment>


Two Entrepreneurs try living on $2 a day - <AUTHOR> http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/two-entrepreneurs-in-bangalore-try-living-on-2-a-day-142768?pfrom=home-otherstories

<comment><USER2> Wow, this is impressive! It brings me back to an article on a French programmer who refused to live in the "rat race" and make more money than he needed. People who live in extreme poverty don't have a choice,. This so reminds me that whatever we have should be used to the best of its potential. Thanks to the two entrepreneurs who asked themselves if living in that extreme poverty was possible and going all the way to live it firsthand. Hats off to both of them!</comment>


Analyst: All These Concerns Over EA And Star Wars Are "Overdone" - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2012/01/20/analyst-all-these-concerns-over-ea-and-star-wars-are-overdone/ <comment><USER2> It is ridiculous that EA's stock has taken a hit over this game. Many people said that Bioware couldn't make a decent MMO, but they ended up making arguably the best MMORPG to date. While the game isn't going to be as profitable as the World of Warcraft, it doesn't mean that they won't make their money back. At one point they had over a million subscribers, so that's at least $60 million right there. If the game keeps even half of them, that's going to be $7.5 million each month. MMOs aren't made for instant profit, they are a long-term investment.

If Bioware had released either a great game with tons of bugs or a crappy game with no bugs, they would likely be looking at a huge loss. Fortunately, the Old Republic's launch was one of the smoothest in the history of MMORPGs and Bioware has a reputation as a developer that continues to release patches long after a game is released.</comment>


Apple's Devices Lose Luster in American Classrooms - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/02/technology/apple-products-schools-education.html <comment> ux-app I'm a HS teacher. I was so happy when my school finally phased out iPads as the designated device for our year 7 students. It's such a rubbish device for content creation. The touchscreen is a POS for anything other than web browsing and casual games. Teaching coding, image manipulation, file manipulation was utterly painful or impossible.

Typing on them is beyond painful and of the hundreds of students I taught, fewer than a dozen actually bought a physical keyboard. This meant that every task took 3x longer than necessary.

On top of this they are expensive. To anyone even remotely IT savvy it was clear from the get-go that this was going to be a failed experiment. Unfortunately education, like most other things follows the fashion of the time and everyone had to learn the hard way that a traditional computer is superior in every conceivable way.

Chromebooks are rubbish too, so I don't really see the move to them as a positive either.

<comment><USER3> > _Chromebooks are rubbish too, so I don 't really see the move to them as a > positive either._

What to your mind would not be rubbish? I'm a Microsoft employee, so I have a vested interest in Windows devices being the dominant choice for schools, but I don't see anything realistic students at the high school or below level couldn't do on Chromebooks.

Also, where do you live/teach? "Year 7" is not high school in the US. That is distinctly junior/middle school.

<comment> ux-app > Also, where do you live/teach? "Year 7"

I'm in Australia. Nationally we are transitioning to a R-6 = Primary School, 7-12 = High School model.

My school is a little unorthodox. We're a private school with a 6-12 shared campus which is why I had experience teaching younger students even though I am HS trained.

> What to your mind would not be rubbish?

Either Mac or PC is fine in my books. Anything that allows them to install native software is fine. I recently did a small unit on binary data. It was really handy for students to install a hex editor, inspect a flat text file in binary mode and map out the ascii table for themselves. I don't think that's possible on a Chromebook.

I also teach Web dev. We use MAMP which is cross platform. We install VSCode, interact with the FS, create a local DB, file uploads, programmatic image resizing etc. My understanding is that this is not possible without jailbreaking (is that the right term?) a Chromebook.

I'm also opposed to any device that hides away the file system from the user. It relegates a computer to the dumb appliance category which I think is unhelpful.

<comment><USER3> Thanks for clarifying.

I agree that Chromebooks are not the ideal learning device for coding. I was thinking general schooling and glossed over your earlier comment about teaching coding. I think they can probably work there, but you're right that a "real" computer is a better choice for that.

<comment><USER4> I'm running a coding class right now that is almost entirely run over ssh on chromebooks to a linux server. Works beautifully.

No fancy IDE, but lots of actual learning to code.

<comment> yoz-y I have never used chromeOS, does it have a terminal or is there some sort of ssh as a service?

<comment><USER5> It has a built in terminal called crosh, which might have an SSH client built in (I'm not sure). What most people do is download a chrome extension like Secure Shell[1] that lets you ssh from a tab.

[1] [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/secure- shell/pnhec...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/secure- shell/pnhechapfaindjhompbnflcldabbghjo)

<comment><USER6> Sadly, ssh was removed from crosh just recently.

        crosh> ssh
        The 'ssh' command has been removed.  Please install the official SSH extension:

      https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/pnhechapfaindjhompbnflcldabbghjo
        crosh>

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I remember the huge push when the iPad came out and all the talk about how it would replace textbooks and exercise books.

It could only be because school administrators were won-over by the engaging user-experience - completely overlooking practicalities - back in 2010 even into 2014 iOS lacked decent enterprise-management tools that would enable staff to lock devices down as they're obvious distraction devices - things are made worse by Apple's decision to not have multiple user-profiles on the iPad and confusion with how Apple IDs work. I understand they've gone some way to address those issues - but other concerns still apply, such as the vision of a wide range of high-quality (and interactive, no-less!) iBooks to replace textbooks - simply hasn't happened due to massive cost of authoring even a single iBook. But the main blocker I feel is that staff (both teachers and school district IT folks) just don't want to have to manage them. I know an IT contractor who resigned his job at a private school after having to deal with setting up hundreds of iPad Mini devices for every student - he just simply hated the work involved.

As Apple is neglecting the desktop market, they're just as well neglecting the education market: remember when Apple had massive education market penetration in the late-1980s? Now there's not even an equivalent of the old eMac unless you count the now 3-years-old Mac Mini models.

<comment><USER8> It blows my mind that Apple has basically put no effort at all into supporting the multi user business/education market. Our company rolled out our first LOB mobile app last year. Only six devices are involved, but they're basically in use 24/7 and are handed off at shift changes. The amount of hoops we had to jump through were absurd both in terms of device management setup and adding some features to the app to make it feel more "multi user".

There's supposed to be an intrinsically safe iPad Mini case available later this year (IIRC), and our manufacturing areas are salivating over the possibilities... But we might have to disappoint them, because the overhead of trying to manage hundreds of iPads would be truly insane.

<comment><AUTHOR> Have you been able to try the multiple user features launched in iOS 9.3? [https://appadvice.com/appnn/2016/01/apples- ios-9-3-features-...](https://appadvice.com/appnn/2016/01/apples- ios-9-3-features-multi-user-support-for-ipads-in-schools)

<comment><USER8> No, unfortunately it is only for schools. When it was announced I was really hopeful that it meant general multi user support would be in iOS 10, but...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I replaced my kids' iPads because of the awful hunched posture it precipitates (as shown in the 2nd picture in the article). Also, after an initial enthusiasm for iMovie and Swift Playgrounds wore off, they gravitated towards the more distracting apps and games, youtube and netflix, etc.

Having them sit upright, with good posture, at a desktop computer puts them in a different frame of mind when it comes to what they do on the device. I also have more input on directing their attention to being interested in computing, playing different types of games, and programming (dabbling in python mostly). My hope is they get a broader picture of computing, which won't be inhibited by the handicaps of iOS.

<comment><USER10> Interesting, personally I think mobile devices and laptop/desktops have differing roles and both have their place. Funny you should mention switching to a desktop to teach them Python, I'm teaching it to mine using Pythonista on iPads because I do a fair bit of coding for fun with it on the train.

No one device can be the be-all and end-all. Yes my daughters watch a lot of dreck on Youtube, but my youngest recently got really excited and showed me her 'favourite video'[0] and told me about this great channel she'd found called numberphile. My eldest watches tons of Anime, but recently got into AMV (Anime Music Videos) and is working on one for herself using Garageband and iMovie on our desktop. It's not the tool that matters, it's cultivating the mind and attitudes that count.

On devices in formal education, I don't think any good can come from kids carrying around any device to use in classrooms all the time until at least high school age. I'm a big fan of using computers educationally, they have specific places and roles to play in that process and one solution simply doesn't fit all cases. iPads, Chromebooks and 'proper' desktops and laptops all have strengths and weaknesses. I'd no more outfit a school entirely with one or the other than I'd replace everything on the road - lorrys, cars, buses - with one kind of vehicle. Tying kids permanently to one specific device just makes no sense to me.

[0][https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdyociU35u8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdyociU35u8)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Finally. It was always so hard to see schools spend millions on expensive Apple tech when there was equivalent equipment available for half the price that met their needs equivalently well. We really don't need to be spending $400-500 per tablet to outfit a classroom with 1 device for every 3 kids, when each kid really needs their own.

<comment><USER12> I question the underlying premise that " each kid needs their own". Every time there's a pilot program that gives every kid a laptop or tablet, it seems to be a complete failure after a few months. My aunt is a teacher in a public school district, and has seen a number of such programs come and fail over the decades.

<comment><USER13> They don't need to give the kids laptops or tablets to _take home_ , but having each child be able to do individual computer-supported exercises at their own desk—in effect, turning every classroom into a computer lab—has important benefits for lesson planning.

<comment><USER3> Such as?

I think having computers at home is the one compelling reason for all the "let's give everyone laptops/ipads" initiatives. It means that everyone has a device they can do typed reports or homework research on. I'm much less convinced that computers in the classroom are a clear value-add in many cases.

<comment><USER14> >It means that everyone has a device they can do ... homework research on.

I've known a couple of families where the children received take home devices they were expected to use to do further research or school work on, but who were unable to due to the lack of internet. A few had dial-up which can be unusable with some of the education sites (all the js resources take too long to load, time out, and leave the page useless), but some had no internet at all. Some of these families had no heat/ac, to give an idea of the level of poverty. There were no libraries within walking distance either (nor public transit options).

I think the devices are a good thing, because it gives some of these kids exposure to computers they wouldn't have otherwise and if the school handles it correctly they can be used to do work from home (have all needed resources already loaded on the device), but I've seen multiple teachers not be able to account for the most impoverished students lacking internet action (I somewhat suspect the teachers don't always have a choice in the matter either).

<comment><USER3> Internet access is an good point. That would seriously diminish the "equalizing" factor of giving every child a device.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> When I used to see all schools turning to iPads I was one of the naysayers. I saw my nephew working(playing) on his school iPad and I thought this was the worst decision the school system ever took.

But now looking back, I am glad they went through it, call it a phase if you must. The American school system (or government) is always last to adopt any tech. You can still find outdated technology barely holding together in some schools. But this time they did something different. They took a risk. They adopted something that hadn't been tested yet. Well now they tested it. We thought iPads were inferior to laptops or desktop, but now we know that they are, at least in the classroom.

Money was wasted, time was wasted, but at least now we know through experience.

I'm glad that they took the risk of trying something untested. And I hope that in the future they will do so again with whatever tech that looks promising in improving education.

<comment><USER16> I work in the public sector, albeit in digitization an architecture in the central administration in a Danish municipality, but I can assure you the lesson won't stay learned for long. We've gone through the same shift, but it wasn't because IPads were unfit for classrooms, it was because chromebooks were cheaper and are easier to administrate for the IT department (also a major financial saving).

Our school system is at a whole a lot better than the American, yet even here it's typically cost and business needs which define what IT makes it into classrooms, rather than educational needs.

Apple is unfortunately for Apple technically and financially unfit for most enterprise, and in the modern world schools are becoming enterprise.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I was the Director of Technology at a school overseas when the hype first began -- and over there the pull was even stronger because in addition to all of the reasons American schools were swooning over the iPad, the fact that this was an "American" thing was yet another factor over there.

I was lucky to be at a place where my principals listened when I suggested that we pass -- for many of the reasons stated here. What I think most people don't appreciate, though, is how much of a marketing tool these iPads became in this space. There wasn't a parent who would come in for a visit who didn't want to see that the school was "innovative," and the surest way to (pretend) show that was to point to your iPad initiative. We held our with laser focus on our educational mission, but I saw many of our peers spend a ton of time, money, and effort, to try to use iPads in one way or another. Marketing was -- and often still is -- the real driving force behind the adoption of these devices.

</comment><comment><USER18> > "At the end of the day, I can get three Chromebooks for each of the Mac > devices I would have purchased," said Steve Splichal, the superintendent of > Eudora Public Schools.

 _Not_ choosing a Mac for school students should have always been a no brainer because, as mentioned a) cost, b)what benefit do Macs provide over say Windows laptops or chromebooks _for high school students_?

Apple did a real good job marketing their products to schools all over the country though.

I imagine high school students require a device to do basic coding, assignments, office applications (presentation, word), browsing and maybe basic image editing. Sure, in professional settings I can understand people choosing Macs, but but for high school students it just seems overkill for their use case.

Anyway I'm glad to see schools coming to their senses and move away from apple devices...into another (cheaper) walled garden.

<comment><USER19> Macs definitely have less downtime, shorter startup time and better battery life than windows machines. Windows has certainly gotten better over the last few years, but 5 years ago it would be taking a minute or two for windows to wake up and log in between each class. Mac is pretty much instant (Chromebooks are fast too). Before you say that a minute isn't much, consider that you have 25 teenagers in the classroom, with a minute of boredom.

Also, build quality, effective lack of malware and other system problems mean students (and teachers) don't have to deal with broken computers nearly as often.

It's only the last couple of years that windows has come close, and for hardware the compares in terms of durability, you'll be paying as much as Apple anyway (which schools are hesitant to do as they are underfunded)

I speak from years of experience as a teacher and IT manager, and as an apple hater.

<comment><USER20> > 5 years ago it would be taking a minute or two for windows to wake up and > log in

OS boot time depends mostly on storage speed, not just the OS itself. My 2012 MBP takes 90s to boot before I upgraded it to SSD.

<comment><USER19> I'm not talking about boot time - I'm talking opening the lid of a suspended- state laptop. Which is something a highschool student has to do at least 5 (but probably more) times a day. Windows is better now (my shiny new Windows laptop takes around 5 or 10 seconds) but Mac is pretty much instant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> > "At the end of the day, I can get three Chromebooks for each of the Mac > devices I would have purchased,"

No brainer, really. A device's cost and what value you're getting from it are very important, especially in a classroom environment.

</comment><comment><USER22> I worked in Education IT as my college job, and Apple provided zero value added with regard towards educational software. For every piece of software that instructors requested such as stat analyses, whiteboards with note-saving capability, standardized test-prep materials, and math visualization it was often non-existent, cost-prohibitive, or a available as a free web app. Campus labs virtualized Windows 7 on iMacs to run side-by-side in order to allow compatibility with 90% of the tools educators need.

While I think that we're doing an excellent job at preparing tomorrow's teachers on how to educate kids; technology largely remains a point of friction in keeping kids focused because of the lack of good tools in the ecosystem. My high school district always received the short end of state funding and we never had any good tools available for physics simulations, art & design, CAD, or personal finance to name a few. Anything we did end up using was available as a web app with no OS dependence; and I see school districts pay extra for mac systems without any competitive advantages to the platform. It's largely a market mismatch that Apple's failed to address, and were largely being phased out because of this.

</comment><comment><USER23> I don't quite understand why people thought iPads were good for content creation in the first place.

Also, I think Apple really missed a trick by not going after the education market with a more suitable device. With Windows, you never know what havoc the next update around the corner is going to wreak. And Chromebooks are still quite limited in many different things. By merely having a serious presence in this market, Apple would by now have had a best in class device because this is turning out to be the classic case of the one eyed man being the king of the land of the blind.

<comment><USER24> In my local school district, gDocs is the key for our switch away from iOS devices. We don't even need the chromebooks, Docs will run on older PCs as well.

I don't believe any newer/cheaper hardware from Apple will help here.

<comment><USER25> Shouldn't computers in schools be used for more than just teaching students how to use office tools?

Teaching only boring stuff has great potential to suck the fun out of computer use for them and does not encourage them to explore what it is _they_ might want to do with a computer.

<comment><USER24> From my personal experience watching my own children use gDocs, they're _extremely_ comfortable working with computers in general and the operation of the tool itself is nearly transparent.

They open a document and start typing. They open a slide presentation and start moving pictures and words around. Collaborative work is automatic and they kids don't even think about it. I can remember a time when simultaneous editing of a document was something only CS PhD students dreamed about in their theses. Now my 7 year-old is doing it. And she finds it kind of fun, actually.

It doesn't need to be an indoctrination into corporate life and I haven't seen one iota of that in the classroom. They're just _tools_ like everything else in their school.

Is writing on a whiteboard training for the business world, or just an easier/cleaner way to write so the whole room can see it? How about using a video projector overlaid on the whiteboard? Sitting on an exercise ball to minimize fidgeting? Standing desks? RFID cards in the lunchroom? Maybe they're all just applications of technology that have positive uses with the kids.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> My county in Virginia was one of the first national pilots for computers in high schools. Every student was given an iBook. I also worked on the help desk, so I saw the administration side as well.

The school system experienced all the challenges you'd expect from giving several thousand 14-18 year-olds expensive tech kit. Broken screens, porn, integrating technology into the curriculum, etc. (But, oh, those heady days when we knew more than the admins and played multiplayer Quake 3 or CroMag Rally—the latter came _pre-loaded_ on the first images!—in the back of classrooms over school wi-fi.)

They switched from Apple to PCs in 2007 or thereabouts, but it was generally regarded as "worse" (more issues, more hardware problems, etc.).

I suspect Apple's strategy changed. They used to _own_ primary school, but I think in the mid 2000's they started to back off that. Macs were becoming popular, including the rise of the iPhone, and the kiddie image wasn't in line with Apple's brand. Not to mention the hardware expense as schools a) bought more volume and b) went with lowest-cost options (like Chromebooks).

</comment><comment><USER27> My wife's school used the iPad 2 in classrooms, and my wife generally disliked them. They don't do a whole lot for content creation as others have noted, and they went obsolete _fast_. It's a nice box to check (particularly for a private school) - "We have iPads" sounds nice. But the reality wasn't so great. This point might be a little more moot now that iPads have matured a lot and Apple has started to push for better content creation, but that stuff is still on the higher-priced end of the platform.

I'd have to think that the lack of repairability is a problem for some schools as well. My school district was one of the first to distribute laptops to junior high students (this was around 1999...and pre-WiFi I guess, since we all pointed the tops of our laptops to the infrared caps in the ceiling! [0]), and I remember seeing the IT guy with a stack of computers in the tech room, replacing screen after screen.

[0]: [https://www.cnet.com/i/ne/pre/Pcnews/12_97/kidntbk.jpg](https://www.cnet.com/i/ne/pre/Pcnews/12_97/kidntbk.jpg)

</comment><comment><USER28> The passing of Steve has affected the iPad product line the most. iPads have pretty much stagnated since his demise and Apple has alienated the education market with their laptops too. I mean look at the Pro features of the iPad - split screen multi-tasking and 100$ pencils. Its a joke.

<comment><USER29> The 12.9-inch iPad Pro (32GB, Wifi only) is selling for $1,049 CAD. Who are they kidding?

<comment><USER28> 32 GB storage on a 1000+$ device is mind boggling. The cloud storage situation is even worse.

Every Pro device (MBP or iPadP) should come with atleast 100GB cloud storage IMO.

<comment><USER29> To be honest, the only Pro thing about the MBP and iPad Pro is their name.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> Tablets are great for media consumption. I don't understand how anyone can use them for creation, though. On my desk is the biggest screen I can afford, and a full size keyboard, and I use it all when doing work.

As for helping kids learn, I just cannot see how a tablet will help in the classroom.

<comment><USER31> Completely agree.

I take this one step further and say tablets are probably handicapping your kids in the home.

Having no tablets or smartphones available during the PC revolution forced most of us here to default to exactly the correct set of tools for maximum learning and efficiency: a keyboard, a mouse, a full-size monitor, sitting at a desk, with a full computer with some kind of (more-or-less) exposed desktop operating system.

This isn't a choice any of us made, it was just the climate and the time. That lucky coincidence has given most of us a lifetime of experience using these tools, extending back all the way into our childhood.

Over the last 10 years though, a lot of people/families have started replacing their desktops/laptops in favor of tablets/smartphones.

I can't even imagine how I would've become a programmer if I had grown up in a house that just used tablets and smartphones for everything.

They say that one of Bill Gates' greatest advantages in life was early access to the PDP-10.

I think this trend toward "convenience computing" is especially bad for lower- income families (which are more likely to rely entirely on smartphones/tablets), and could even be a significant contributor to income inequality.

<comment><USER25> When you teach e.g. basic astronomy or anatomy, you want students to explore the solar system or human body interactively, not their computers.

Computer use in schools is not only about learning to use the computer. One of the great features of the iPad is that once you start an app, it becomes a single-purpose device that just works.

I totally agree with your last point.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> The sad thing is that in practice, iPads are mostly used as substitutes for books. That's completely backwards. It reminds me how "multimedia CDs" were supposed to revolutionize teaching in the 90s. They ended up being picture books on a computer, with silly animations and sound effects on mouse hover added on top.

Computers and tablets could be a great pedagogic tool for many things, like exploring maths concepts interactively, spaced-repetition for rote learning foreign language words, and other things where the computer as an interactive, programmable medium shines. Sadly, I don't see these opportunities being exploited at all in the classroom.

On the bright side, at least kids have equal access to modern tools, and learn the same basics of searching for stuff online.

<comment><USER33> The opportunities aren't being exploited because the cost of professional content creation is so high.

Paper textbooks are a comfortable earner for publishers, especially with nominal annual or regular updates.

Print development, including author payment, is _much_ less expensive than app development, and requires skills that are far more common.

Publishers are reasonably likely to make some money on a book project. (The author probably won't beyond an initial advance, but that's a different problem.) They're much less likely to make money on educational app or ebook development.

It doesn't help that the industry never standardised a format for animation and interactivity.

There's a big gap between the features you can include in an epub and in a native app. Apple poked at this problem with their book creation software, but never really solved it. The other platforms barely considered it an issue.

There's definitely an entrepreneurial opportunity in developing smart learning tools for schools. But between conventional publisher apathy, school board politics, device incompatibilities, marketing access, and a dearth of authors/designers who can produce the content that's needed, it's a very bumpy minefield.

Platform selection is not the hardest problem. IMO Apple should have created a "school certified" app creation program, added multi-user and app selection locks to iOS, brought in experienced educators and consultants with evidence- based credentials who could explain effective learning strategies, and acted as a bridge between developers and school management.

Instead we got an app store free-for-all with education tacked on as a buying category. That strategy was never going to give schools the tools they needed to go beyond buying iPads to making education the well-managed and effective market it could be.

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> My HS rolled out iPads to all students my Sophmore year of HS 4 years ago.

It was well known the average GPA dropped by a sizable amount (mine personally by nearly .5). There wasn't a good way for the school to lock down games, and it was really hard to self regulate. The technology side of Canvas worked pretty well once teachers knew how to use it, but the fact that so many games could be played just distracted the hell out of everyone, and the teachers knew this. Without a way to lock down device gaming, I don't think they're a good idea in a school environment unless you antipate and actively try to curb gaming, but this can be hard and will make the teacher seem like the bad guy, which is never a good thing.

<comment><USER35> There are many iPad MDM solutions to that problem. Apple s App Store can be disabled and replaced with a custom one, for example.

<comment> nommm-nommm Doesn't matter if its technically possible if teachers and administrators are clueless on how to do it.

<comment><USER35> The teachers and admins should not be the people administering equipment...

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER36> I'm curious how much of a boon Chromebooks/low cost laptops were for schools in low-income areas. I can imagine they made quite a significant impact!

<comment><USER37> I'm in a very low income area and they really haven't changed anything for us since the lack of any local management software for chromebooks has not allowed us to buy them. Netbooks were interesting but they had quite the maintenance problems. I think buying tough books or their equivalent would have been a more cost effective solution.

<comment><USER36> Ah interesting, thanks for the perspective. I'm surprised nobody has build any local management software for chromebooks, but maybe Google makes it difficult.

<comment><AUTHOR> Not sure what grandparent means by local management software, but Google's built a cloud device management console ([https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/business/devices/featu...](https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/business/devices/features- management-console.html)) and there are 3rd party tools (ex. GoGuardian - <USER2> works with my company - [https://www.goguardian.com/](https://www.goguardian.com/)) that help manage devices.

<comment><USER37> I mean something that would allow management and storage locally instead of on Google's cloud. We have some requirements by law. I haven't heard of GoGuardian, thanks for the info.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> It's sad, but Apple has completely lost it at the low end. The value proposition just isn't there any more. This goes for iOS as well as Macs.

<comment><USER7> But they've lost it at the high-end too: the MacPro's internals are now over 3 years old with still no update in site, AV pros are switching to HP Z-series and the MBP is high-end only in price and design: perf-wise it's quite lacking.

The MacBook Air (with its low price to clear their stock) and Mac Mini are priced right for education, but spec-wise they're poor investments, especially as even web-pages now require beefy specs to display at a decent framerate (blame ads).

<comment><USER39> yet apple's stock price keeps soaring well into the 130s (!) now, despite months and months of nothing but bad news in my own distorted, self-selected information. what are we missing?

<comment><USER40> > what are we missing?

A CEO that finds fulfilment in something more than numbers on a chart?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> This might be a little unrelated, but here in The Netherlands a research showed that 60% of the children have some form of pain caused by device usage.

As you can see in the statistics of this article, more and more devices are used at school. And looking at the pictures my first reaction was: let's also teach those children to have a good posture.

</comment><comment><USER42> I don't know how you can teach kids anything without a keyboard and only having access to "apps".

</comment><comment><USER43> Schools should start using Linux more.

<comment><USER44> I agree emotionally, but practically it's hard to get education-level support it it.

<comment><USER43> Why so? Linux is great for education especially.

<comment><USER44> There's not a lot of education suppliers for linux. Most teachers aren't techies, so you need a good support network.

On a philosophical level, I abundantly agree that a FOSS system should be in education - which other areas of general education do we train our kids in using Company X's stuff?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> I've been teaching at Stanford for the past few years and 95% of the students I've had are all on Macbook laptops. Still have to adjust/manage the 1 or 2 students on PCs. That said, I'm glad to hear that iPads are being phased out in the primary/HS grades. Other than games, I haven't seen many made-for-iPad software that show parity with desktop counterparts when it comes to word processing, spreadsheets, photo/video editing/management, etc. I'm going to assume that the state of the art in interactive books is much further behind.

</comment><comment><USER46> When it is the school buying the equipment, I can very well believe that they could decide to make the switch to PCs or Chromebooks. But Macs still have mindshare of the actual kids.

My daughter wasn't allowed to use a computer for homework and such until she got to 8th grade (it is a private school and it is their policy -- they should be playing outside with friends and not spending hours shooting monsters and watching TV). When they get to 8th grade, the policy then says the kids needed to have a computer. They get classes on keyboarding, creating web pages, binary math, programming with Scratch, and they start doing homework on their computers.

They were told they could use either Macs or PCs, no preference. We got our daughter a decent Lenovo PC; it is better than my own computer. After a year, she would have none of it, as nearly all of her classmates have Macs. It simply has caché that PCs don't. My daughter was willing to go through a second learning curve and convert her 16th birthday present in order to get a Mac, just to be like her friends at school.

<comment><USER47> Sometimes you can be surprised to learn what "Everyone else..." means. If the cool kids have mac it means you will be left outside the cool kids group as a pc owner.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Apple is focused on consumer apps and barely provides any support to edtech developers. There is no focus on education strategy or business model. We built an iOS educational platform but because of all these issues, transitioned to cloud with our classk12.com platform with Google and Microsoft integrations.

</comment><comment><USER49> I'll be the guy who points out that this story is about what school districts are purchasing in bulk, not necessarily which computers students are buying with their own (i.e. their parents') money.

</comment><comment><USER50> TLDR; 12M devices shipped to schools in 2016, Chromebooks accounted for 58%, up from 50% in 1 year. The iPads and Mac laptops fell to 19%, from 25% while Windows remained relatively stable at about 22%.

</comment><comment><USER51> I read through this entire thread. Interesting range of comments.

I had the experience of being consulted by the principal of our local elementary school on this a few years back. They had received a donation and could make their own localized purchasing decision with that money.

Based on what we learned at home with our kids and various iOS devices my advice was to avoid them and opt for inexpensive PC laptops running Windows. We, in fact bought 100 HP laptops, 17 inch screens, brand new, in original packaging, for $200 each.

The machines have been absolutely fantastic. They have allowed the kids to explore things that would be absolutely impossible to approach with an iPad. For example, using a USB port to save their work and bring it home. Or read and write CD's and DVD's. Yeah, that's how bad iPads are.

Oh, yes, and they are all multi-user, of course.

They run applications like GIMP, Lego Mindstorms and a myriad of really excellent programs out there. And, of course, access the web under supervision to do even more. This year, if I can find the time, I'd like to get the school started teaching a very basic Python programming class.

One of the big problems we recognized early on with iPads was that the lack of multi-user capabilities made them impossible to use. For example, in the Special Ed class (For non-use readers: developmentally disabled kids) the spectrum of disabilities was such that you would have to have a highly customized iPad for each kid in order to configure it to fit their needs. PC's dealt this this very easily. In some cases we had to cover the keyboard give them a small Wacom tablet.

Tablets are great for such things as reading books and what I am going to call limited web browsing. Even today, with the push for mobile-first, the browsing experience on tablets can range from OK to frustrating and down-right impossible.

Tablets will, of course, survive. It'll be interesting to see what use-cases they end-up satisfying in the end.

EDIT:

Forgot to add that in our own case we took away our kid's iPads and iPods. Both my wife and I concluded they were not doing anything useful with them. The devices became an addiction and achieving balance between beneficial play (educational apps) and mindless addictive crap was a constant battle. The last straw was when one of them started to lie about usage and would play Clash of Clans hidden under his blanket in bed instead of sleeping. They exhibited the behavior of alcoholics or drug addicts who deny their reality. That's when the iOS devices evaporated.

They have nice PC's in our family room. They can have fun and they can also learn but the addictive element is completely gone. And rules are easier to enforce. For example, on Saturday's they can play as much as they want. In practice they play about a couple of hours and then go play with real toys, the dogs, lego's etc. Better balance and better outcomes.

<comment><USER52> > The last straw was when one of them started to lie about usage and would > play Clash of Clans hidden under his blanket in bed instead of sleeping. > They exhibited the behavior of alcoholics or drug addicts who deny their > reality. That's when the iOS devices evaporated.

This is what kids do when you try to enforce a bedtime. I used to get hell for reading _actual books_ under the covers with a flashlight when it was decided that I ought to be sleeping.

<comment><USER53> Same. Of course, my mom used to catch hell for it too, from her parents.

Addictive patterns and compulsive behavior are interesting. Especially our mores about them.

Binge watching is good, binge drinking is bad.

One of the best things you can say about a movie or show or book is its compelling and you can't stop consuming it.

But if you can't stop Cheetos, that's a problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER54> All public schools should be forced by law to use free systems on free hardware, anything else seems insane.

</comment><comment><USER55> Can't stop giggle.

Android is Linux on mobile and ChromeOS is linux on desktop

<comment><USER56> Linux + Walled Garden, unfortunately.

<comment><USER57> With a pretty huge door you can open from the inside:

[https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton](https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> Alright Google, that sweet holiday gift charity is paying off!

<comment><USER59> "Charity" being the keyword there</comment></comment>


Is our fight against coronavirus worse than the disease? - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/20/opinion/coronavirus-pandemic-social-distancing.html <comment><USER2> _The clustering of complications and death from Covid-19 among the elderly and chronically ill, but not children (there have been only very rare deaths in children), suggests that we could achieve the crucial goals of social distancing — saving lives and not overwhelming our medical system — by preferentially protecting the medically frail and those over age 60, and in particular those over 70 and 80, from exposure._

Finally, some sanity.

The over 70 and chronically ill should be quarantined and provided with hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin, and the rest should "social distance" those at risk, but otherwise go about their business. That way the virus spreads quickly among the less at risk, they suffer no or minor symptoms, and develop herd immunity.

<comment><USER3> Except that children can spread it faster among caretakers that have contact with the elderly. Many of those caretakers, like people my age, either have young children (like me), or are in contact with people who have young children.

It also turns out that certain classes of drugs can drop the otherwise statistically less at risk squarely into the grave risk category without their knowing it. (High BP meds, NSAIDS, others we perhaps don't yet know about). Going for the "maybe it isn't that big of a deal" approach seems like a bad idea to me.

<comment><USER4> That has to be weighed against the impacts of cratering the economy, which we know to be a big deal.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> There are a number of reasons why the fight is worth it. \- 88% of the people who contract COVID-19 develop a fever. \- 20% of the people who contract COVID-19 are hospitalized-they require oxygen. If they recover, they are left with 20-30% decreased lung function. \- 6% are critical require ICU.

This virus has different properties from the flu. It actively destroys lung cells. It's not clear that there is long-term immunity. Concentrated exposure is very lethal; we have several members of a NJ family die after contracting the illness during a dinner party. We have only a fraction of the hospital capacity for all the coronavirus patients and this also hurts ICU patients with other diseases.

I don't think that we want this disease to embed itself in the same way as the flu currently does. We can't have this disease mutate each year like the flu and cull an additional 2% of the population annually over the current annual death rate of 0.95%. Overnight, this virus would become the leading killer-- more than all other causes combined. The number of people that will die from this disease compares with major wars.

This is just the first of this type of pandemic. There were other viruses like bird flu and Zika that didn't have an impact.

This also causes society to reorganize itself to lessen the impact of future pandemics. Even without the government actions taken, the fear was already affecting travel and other industries.

<comment><USER6> How did you calculate that 20%?

<comment><USER5> [https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-recovery- damage-...](https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-recovery-damage-lung- function-gasping-air-hong-kong-doctors-2020-3)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Hmmm, I dont like the article however there is some logic here.

If you are a low risk adult, and if you have the option to infect yourself at home, you would only have to isolate for 2-3 weeks until you have developed immunity and are good to go back to work and help others etc...

By not letting young people get infected we're isolating them for way way longer than they should be and this is extremely inefficient.

However, leaving ethics aside entirely, for that solution to work we would need self-infection kits for low risk people to use at home which is quite messed up.

</comment><comment><USER8> The mass isolation approach fails for me on multiple levels. First, why would you change the way 100% of the things work when all you have to do is change the way 5% to 10% of the things work? Why not employ levels of isolation that are proportionally aggressive to vulnerability to serious symptoms or death? Second, I thought we decided that trying to manhandle nature because we think we know better doesn't work? Wouldn't we be better off if we let nature take it's course so that 90% of the population suffers mild flu systems, but gains some level of enhanced immunity to further protect the vulnerable groups going forward while at the same time not collapsing the economy?

</comment><comment><USER9> Subhead is better than headline: "There may be more targeted ways to beat the pandemic."

Thought-provoking piece.

And if we had much more available testing, what it proposes could be a smart way to go.

Until we have much more available testing, it's a pipe dream.

<comment><USER10> Exactly. With mass testing options, we would be one solid plan away from getting back to some semblance of normal life. A combo of taking temp and testing those with fever, and the quarantining the sick, we could be confident in being in public again. I know this is critical but how long will we need to isolate if we don't get medical intervention? Can our economy survive this kind of shut down for more than a few weeks?

Edit to say I'm all for flattening the curve, and I'm not a denier. But there are trade offs going on here. We aren't rich enough to ride this out for several months without permanent systemic damage. I think tough questions are warranted

<comment><USER11> > A combo of taking temp and testing those with fever,

You can have, and spread, covid-19 for several days before you develop a temperature.

<comment><USER10> Well I'm hearing most people are going to get it anyway. With tests we can slow it down. We're going to have to accept some risk though aren't we? We can't really afford to shut the whole economy down for several months. And if you look at Italy it doesn't appear to working that well anyway.

At least with testing we can catch a large chunk of the asymptomatic spreaders and get control of this thing. But in a few weeks when this fist wave passes, we're gonna all have to learn to mitigate risk with good hygiene and accept we may get it. Testing is our only hope to returning to normal life before we totally crush our economy.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Eh.... no... that's what Italy tried to do, (tried to stamp out clusters, while keeping everything the same and itdidn't work)

Right now they are having massive casualties per day, to almost (if not more) than ww2, and there is no sign of slowing down yet.

"Italy reports 5,986 new cases of coronavirus and 627 new deaths, raising total to 47,021 cases and 4,032 dead"

<comment><USER13> No, Italy's real issue is they're have the oldest population in Europe and the highest per/capita smokers in Europe. Since Covid-19 hits that demographic hardest (elderly with respiratory issues), they have the highest mortality rate. The average age of those dying from this in Italy is 80.

<comment><USER14> Don't forget the under 55 group are still consuming precious ICU resources. No, they don't typically die, but yes they're tying up needed resources and as such are contributing to the overall number of deaths.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> This discussion on HN has some great first hand accounts about the situation: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22627636](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22627636)

</comment><comment><USER16> One point that stood out to me as odd is that he says family units are clustering together and that's worse for the elderly/most at risk. He mentions students coming home from college but aren't they the only major group coming home that don't live there normally? If people live with their parents and grandparents then it seems to make sense that working to keep them from getting infected (ie - keeping K-12 students home, parents avoiding the work place) is a better course of action than sending them into school and work. If they've already moved away then they shouldn't be taking this time as a free vacation to see those people anyway. I'm not sure how you would protect those at risk people while keeping everyone else in their normal lives. Fill the hospital beds with them and don't let in the coronavirus infected?

Edit to add: US Population 65 years and over: 16.03% (male 22,678,235/female 28,376,817) (wikipedia)

Total Staffed Beds in All U.S. Hospitals: 924,107 (aha.org)

</comment><comment><USER17> Yes.

Current approach is a disaster.

I would have asked most at risk population to self quarantine.

Cut on red tape for usage of antivirals. (Hydroxychloroquine a proven safe one said to work has been held back for weeks due to paperwork)

I would have even gone as far as requisitioning private companies to par for the lack of medical supplies and drugs.

The eroding of civil liberties some EU countries is experiencing is plain unacceptable.

</comment><comment><USER4> Why was this flagged?

</comment><comment><USER18> The article asks some legitimate questions that beg for answers:

 _If we succeed in slowing the spread of coronavirus from torrent to trickle, then when does the society-wide disruption end? When will it be safe for healthy children and younger teachers to return to school, much less older teachers and teachers with chronic illnesses? When will it be safe for the work force to repopulate the workplace, given that some are in the at-risk group for severe infection?

When would it be safe to visit loved ones in nursing homes or hospitals? When once again might grandparents pick up their grandchildren?

There are many possible answers, but the most likely one is: We just don't know. We could wait until there's an effective treatment, a vaccine or transmission rates fall to undetectable levels. But what if those are a year or more away? Then we suffer the full extent of societal disruption the virus might cause for all those months. The costs, not just in money, are staggering to contemplate._

</comment><comment><USER19> No. It might have been easier if countries reacted in January when it was obviously going to infect everyone. Now it's too late for anything but a lockdown.

<comment><USER20> Yup. The surgical strike option is long past viability in the US and many other countries. There's already way too many cases, and we don't remotely have enough resources in the form of tests and case workers to track down active infections and everyone that person has been in contact with.

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> The simple fact of the matter is you can't have a significantly long lock down, that's not possible. If the economy truly fails we all go down. You think fighting over: toilet paper, hand sanitizer, respirators and testing kits is crazy? Wait till people are fighting over food, water and shelter.

</comment><comment><USER6> @dang dissenting view points are being supressed, people need access to this type of analysis

We're killing the 10th man: [https://www.strive.com/post/the-10th-man- rule](https://www.strive.com/post/the-10th-man-rule)

I spoke to a physician at Yale where Dr. Katz is based: he asked me to copy n paste the text because it's behind a paywall. _facepalm_

</comment><comment><USER22> I am afraid that we will sacrifice (a LOT) and the same people will die anyway. Let's face it, maybe we'll extend their life by 7 weeks or so. Many are alive that to millions of dollars in medical support for their last years.

But then no country will just say, "let's let our people die." However, unless a vaccine is discovered soon enough or the virus miraculously is manageable, people will be very uneasy.

</comment><comment><USER23> This article is almost completely rhetoric, bereft of quantitative analysis and at odds with what the broader medical community has been saying. The New York Times really does let any credentialed dingus post shit on their website.

<comment><USER24> The root cause of this article seems to be that it's inconvenient having my adult kids in the house and how long must this go on.

The idea seems to be to somehow isolate at risk populations (the elderly, mostly) and resume business as usual. As pointed out by others, it's too late in the absence of a vaccine to do anything but try and reduce the infection rate, unless society decides to just let the cards fall where they may and sacrifice the old and sick.

How long it goes on would depend on the effectiveness of this strategy, and you can tell be monitoring the infection rate. China claims that it has essentially stopped new infections after ~3 months, so this doesn't seem like it will be an indefinite lockdown.

</comment></comment><comment><USER25> No, because the goal is to buy _time_.

Many things that can create positive outcomes are in motion: vaccines, drugs to lessen symptoms, testing spin up, etc.

However, all of these things need time to come to fruition.

For example, once we actually have enough tests, targeted quarantines now work. At that point, we can start backing off the full lockdowns.

However, we're currently in an unchecked exponential growth phase. The only thing you can do right _NOW_ , is shut down.

Given time, more options may open up. But what we need most right now is _time_.

</comment><comment><USER26> I'm finding that the fight against the fight against covid is the most unnerving.

</comment><comment><USER27> Even the opening photo caption in that opinion piece is wrong.

There are plenty of 20 and 30-somethings that end up in the hospital from not being able to breathe.

Our fight is worse because there is no testing in the USA when every other country has mass testing. If we knew who had it, we could isolate just those people and the country wouldn't be headed towards recession (hopefully not depression).</comment>