System76 Thelio: A Review - <AUTHOR> https://nora.codes/post/system76-thelio-a-review/ <comment><USER2> I don't understand why these boutique Linux system vendors all end up gravitating towards rolling their own distributions -- Pop!_OS (ugh) for System76, PureOS ([https://www.pureos.net/](https://www.pureos.net/)) for Purism, etc.

I've been running Ubuntu on my machines for something like a decade now, and have experience with Debian and Red Hat/Fedora from before that. I know what to expect from these distributions. When you tell me you've rolled your own distribution, I have _no idea_ what to expect, which turns me off from your product. And if the answer is "you can expect exactly the same as what you'd get from Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora/whatever," then why bother rolling a new distro in the first place? Why take what should be a simple sales pitch and make it more confusing?

They seem to think the idea of learning my way around Yet Another Linux Distribution is an enticement. It isn't -- especially when the only community around the distribution is a single small company, which means that anything I do learn is unlikely to be useful beyond using that company's products. As soon as I buy from someone else, or that one small company goes out of business or loses interest in maintaining the distro, I can take all that knowledge and toss it in the bin. No thanks.

(Weirdly, the only company in this space that seems to really get this is Dell. I feel like I'm living in the Mirror Universe.)

<comment><USER3> This entire comment is a non-issue since you can specify what distro you want.

Let's not get focused on a red herring because one person decided to shoot out a verbose comment.

<comment><USER4> With the same drivers?

<comment><USER5> Yeah, with the purchase of the machine you can specify Ubuntu 18.04. They also have a ppa where you can install all of their drivers from, which works on both pop and Ubuntu.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I've never had a good System76 experience - over a decade of System76 use. I've repeatedly asked to have them purchased, merely to help the community, and every single one has disappointed.

The build quality is such rubbish, and you begin to feel it almost immediately. I'm careful with my kit, not terribly hard on anything and I manage to flake bits of plastic or metal off each System76. They've always been in neoprene cases within a laptop backpack - because I'm that paranoid. They're just rubbish.

At this point Ubuntu (or Mint, or Debian!) on Alienware is my laptop of choice, and I run those Kingdel desktops.

<comment><USER7> I want to chime in a contrasting opinion here. I had an old Galago that I adored. Came with Ubuntu, swapped that to Arch then stayed happy with it for years! It was a plastic frame, but it was tough enough to shove in a backpack and take longboarding. After 3 years, the Ethernet port's spring clip finally snapped off (user error), but still worked. I also accidentally bent the audio jack, but it still worked. It finally "died" when my pup knocked it off the couch with the charger still plugged in. The charger plug, still in the port, hit the floor at just the right angle to snap the port's inner prong off making it impossible to charge. I didn't notice until the next day when the battery used it's last bits of juice then shut down.

Very happy with my System76 purchase. But! I've only ever used the one device.

<comment><USER8> You're aware they're all relabeled Chinese hardware yes?

<comment><USER9> Are there any computer brands that aren't manufactured in China?

<comment><USER10> They mean that System76 doesn't use an OEM, they use a white box ODM. You can buy the _exact_ same laptop from several different companies.

<comment><USER11> I suspect they're selling rebadged clevo laptops like almost everyone

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> After the busy work of using Linux and making a hobby of configuration (I think I started in 1992 with Slackware), it was so nice buying a System76 laptop last fall and having everything 'just work.'

<comment><USER13> I use a high-end System76 for work (~10+hrs a day) and love it. The only problem seems to be multi-monitor support. The screens go into strange resolutions. They flick on and off.

I've never had strange issues on other system with 2 or 3 monitor support (currently do this at home w/ a Lenovo + 3 monitors and with my wife w/ a MBP + 3 monitors.)

<comment><USER14> I haven't had this problem with my "Oryx". I'm running the laptop monitor, a dell 24" vertical and old dell "Dual link dvi" 30 monitor.

Sometimes I plug into a hight dpi 28". Thats hit or miss depending on the applications. There are a few that don't scale well at all.

The only problem I have sometimes is the apple thunder (lightning?) adapter sometimes doesn't wake up, so I have to unplug the usb cable thats powering it.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> While I haven't used a system76 Thelio, while we're discussing System76, I can speak about a Galago pro that I bought from system76.

Noteworthy, because I was one of those Mac refugees who needed a non-mac machine now that I don't like the new macbook keyboards or insane price bump that macs got.

I bought a 16 GB Ram, 14" Galago pro with 512 GB SSD with Ubuntu on it. Battery life is around 2 hours. Not too good compared to a macbook.

\- Keyboard is pretty nice, each key has a comfortable travel to it.

\- The trackpad is awful or at least compared to what I'd gotten used to using the macbook for last many years. The trackpad feels rough, is not as responsive or smoother as the mac touchpad either. The click buttons aren't too nice to click either.

Bottom line is that the next time I need to buy another Linux laptop, I'll be looking to try out the newer System76 to make sure they've fixed their touchpad, if not, I'll go with Dell XPS developer edition, no questions asked.

Surprisingly, the touchpad being what it is, I've not seen it mentioned in the reviews of Galago pro all that much, I suspect it's because there are not too many ex-mac owners buying these, the touchpad feels like it belongs to year 2008.

<comment><USER16> If anyone knows of a trackpad that's even 90% as good as the MacBook ones I'd love to give them a try.

This is honestly one of the biggest things locking me into the Mac ecosystem, I haven't found an alternative trackpad that even comes close. I even like Apple's new MacBook keyboards (even with them breaking all the time… at least they fix them).

<comment><USER17> Presently, no trackpad under linux will give an OSX-like experience.

This is mostly a software limitation with the linux desktop IMO... e.g. web browsers like chrome and firefox lack basic features like kinetic scrolling under linux:

[https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=763791](https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=763791)

[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1213601](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1213601)

And linux desktops don't really have any kind of gesture integration (the only one I'm aware of is gnome on wayland, and it basically only has one gesture available, switching desktops)

I prefer using linux on my laptop, but this is definitely a big annoyance

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> The last shop I worked at had System76 PCs for all the devs and they are great. I have since switched at home also and recently test drove their new PopOS since I needed CUDA and Tensorflow and they package them so it is as easy `apt-get install` and it was also great. I would highly recommend looking at their PCs and PopOS.

I just wish PopOS was built on Debian and not Ubuntu.

<comment><USER19> > I just wish PopOS was built on Debian and not Ubuntu.

why?

<comment><USER20> Since Debian is not built with a commercial interest (Canonical is a corporation at the end), the OS doesn't feel like a "freemium product".

As a person who uses Debian for a long time, and Ubuntu for throw-away VMs; Debian feels more "pure" from a system perspective, and it's not just skin deep.

Debian is set-up to be a leaner OS out of the box. Everything is within reach, and deeply configurable from command line. Desktop environments are add-ons to the system, not integrated (even in desktop versions). I don't find surprising choices or hard to reach configuration stuff in Debian.

Even though derived from Debian, Ubuntu "standard" comes with packages from Amazon, et. al., and sends analytics. This is not something that I like. Also, when I install Ubuntu server, I get subtle ads of "Canonical Landscape" and their paid offerings. This signals me that I'm using a freemium product, and as a user, I'm not their primary focus.

Debian is of course sponsored by a lot of corporations, but at the end they are independent and they do as they wish at the end. I'm part of the process, and can talk with devs, and my bug reports and commits are not pre-filtered with "commercial" interests before even discussed.

These are my feelings and experiences though. YMMV.

<comment><USER21> FWIW, recent Ubuntu versions support a "minimum" installation. You get vanilla Gnome with Firefox and that's about it. No LibreOffice, no Amazon anything. Quite lean and nice.

<comment><USER20> That's a nice feature. However, it also shows the stark difference between Debian and Ubuntu rather well. Debian's minimal installation is ~500 package install with no desktop environment and anything. Just a _base_ installation with enough utilities to install the remainder according to requirements.

<comment><USER22> The equivalent for Ubuntu is Ubuntu server: [https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/installing-live- serv...](https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/installing-live- server.html.en-GB)

Fwiw I agree that the default Ubuntu desktop is a little heavy - but I also realize I'm not the typical target user.

<comment><USER23> I use xfce ubuntu on the desktop, but the vast majority of machines we have (c. 2500) are servers, which by default doesn't even install sshd.

Compared with a "minimal graphics" centos server build I did - which required a mouse to install the thing, I think I know where "little heavy" lies.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> > The smallest Thelio, designated "thelio-r1", stands 32 centimeters tall, 20 > centimeters wide, and 28 centimeters deep, coming to only a total of 18 > liters in volume, a good deal smaller than even the tiniest commercial full- > GPU mITX form factor cases, most of which are at least 22 liters.

Wut?

[https://www.sfflab.com/products/ncase_m1](https://www.sfflab.com/products/ncase_m1) \- 12.6L [https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php](https://www.dan- cases.com/dana4.php) \- 7.2L

There's a pretty big community that builds high-end gaming rigs / workstations in these cases. I've built in both. Originally I built in the Ncase but sold it to a colleague when I moved abroad. Recently I just built in the DANcase and wish I had have stuck with the Ncase. The extra 4 liters of volume goes a _long_ way in improving thermals, due to the extra clearance for a CPU cooler.

Anyway, just found that line in the article annoying, even a cursory Google search shows that there's a plethora of 7-12L SFF PC cases out there.

<comment><USER25> I take commercial to mean lian-li (who made their old cases), cooler aster, antec, etc. Large volume manufacturers.

It's probably easier for them to vertically integrate the case into their business than go with a low volume niche manufacturer and deal with the hazards that come with that

<comment><USER26> Fractal Design is a pretty large manufacturer, and their Node 202 case \w full GPU support is only about 10 liters.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> I appreciate that the author linked to another review if users were coming from an OS X perspective. Or, when a review explains its biases or what is important to the reviewer, it helps make sense of the content for me as a reader.

</comment><comment><USER28> I was super interested in buying one of these, but the markup is just too much for my tastes. I built out a reasonable workstation (9900K, 16 GB RAM, 500 GB NVMe SSD, 1TB SSD, RX 580) and the cost came out to $2,359 versus the $1,582 it would take to build it myself. I could understand a markup over retail of $100-200, but $700+ just isn't a good value in my opinion, especially when I wasn't selecting affordable parts.

</comment><comment><USER29> Has anyone tried a system76 laptop with Elementary OS? I'm curious if there's any issues. I'm thinking of getting a Galago but just read there's some multi monitor issues. Curious if there's any other caveats I might not know.

<comment><USER30> If you end up doing it, please make a blog post for people who have the same questions as you do now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> I read all that and still have no idea what the point of it is, nor how performant or usable it is. It reads like an amazon review if someone trying to justify on overpriced purchase to themselves.

Meanwhile it looks like this product is targeted at the very people who know how to configure their distros for their hardware, precisely nullifying the value-add, as far as I can tell.

> Both of the Thelio's vents show the solar system at the time of the UNIX > epoch.

Money well spent

(But at least the I/o board is "reliable"!...ok)

<comment><USER32> Personally, I thought the solar system thing was a cute gimmick. I wouldn't buy it _just_ for that, but if I were in the market for a smallish Linux desktop where everything worked out of the box, the rest of the review makes it sound like a decent option. Whether you mind paying a modest premium for that, versus doing the research/confit yourself is a personal decision obviously.

Also, the author is a college undergrad writing on her own blog. If there's ever a time and place for rationalizing something, that's it!

<comment><USER33> Their CS department has 2 faculty! I think the math department was 4-5. Must be a pretty small school or I'm missing something.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> It is like buying a coach built, hand made automobile rather than a mass produced German sportscar. The former uses some 'crate' engine, probably from the German sportscar but it has notional appeal for people that buy such things. If you do racing on the track and have to fix the thing every weekend then the off-the-shelf mass produced car won't cut it. For most people though the mass produced car with the up to date infotainment is what you want.

A 'coach built' tower PC is fine, however, have you seen how the independent manufacturers such as System 76 compare in laptop land? The Dells and the Huawei PCs have bezels around the screen that you have to squint to see, the System 76 type of laptops have bezels wider than I can remember them being in 1993. Then there is the general girth of the things, it is like you need a padded wrist support to reach the keyboard.

With autos there are people with rose tinted eyewear products that can remember the good old days when you could fix everything yourself with just a Haynes manual and a set of spanners. They moan about the modern cars that might as well have the bonnet welded shut. I am a bit like this with PCs but when it comes to actually putting money towards a PC I prefer the new and shiny rather than the 'coach built'. Sure I want to run linux but I would gladly risk my chances with those 'Windows only' machines from the likes of Lenovo, Huawei, Dell and HP rather than go with something designed for Linux.

</comment><comment><USER35> The greatest draw for me in looking at purchasing a System76 machine is coreboot support. My understanding is that coreboot is supported (sometimes) on older hardware, but not much modern hardware aside from Chromebooks. Ideally I'd like to build a machine myself, but it seems difficult to do at present with recent hardware and full coreboot support. Am I correct?

<comment><USER36> Our Coreboot support right now is very experimental, and doesn't currently support things like UEFI, but we are progressing on it rapidly. We've gotten lots of help from both Coreboot and Intel in getting everything to work.

One major downside is that right now the supported models are Intel-only laptops, but in the future it's highly likely that we'll be able to fully support all of our systems.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> My principle concern with any boutique desktop systems is that in order for the business model to be viable, they need to add significant mark up to the BOM. However I most enthusiasts can just assemble a desktop for themselves and save hundreds of dollars. One of the easiest ways to save hundreds of dollars I am aware of.

<comment><USER38> Doesn't every manufacturer of anything have to have a markup?

<comment><USER39> Yes, but there are economies of scale that Dell or Apple enjoy which will never apply to a seller targeting a niche market.

Not only do they get lower costs on parts, but they can afford lower margins per unit since they have much higher volume relative to the fixed costs of running the business.

<comment><USER38> So the niche market shouldn't be served?

<comment><USER40> What the thread parent (bgorman) saying is that boutique desktop systems (as with any niche product) have to add significant markup. But, for computers, the target market of these manufacturers can also often build a computer themselves and avoid the huge markup.

If you sell ultra high quality waterproof headsets to audiophiles for $2500, including a $1000 markup, your customers have only the choices of A) not buying or B) paying the markup. With desktops, they get the 3rd choice of building it themselves for $1600/1700.

<comment><USER17> What's missing in this analogy though is that computers need to run an Operating system.

When building your own system (and running Windows), you can be pretty sure that windows will work without issues.

With linux though, it's more of a gamble, which is why a vendor that tests/pre-configures/supports linux can be appealing

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> seems a bit overpriced.

Other than that, it's a decent workstation.

<comment><USER38> I wouldn't balk at paying a little more for a build-to-order system over an off-the-shelf thing; I'd expect that. It would be okay as long as the charge is not too egregious and you're getting a decent build for it. And it sounds like you do.

</comment></comment><comment><USER42> Why put the images on the page at all? They don't provide much additional information being so small.

<comment><USER43> The problem isn't the images but rather the poor site design that uses large images as tiny thumbnails but then doesn't make the thumbnails clickable. The images themselves are actually viewable much larger if you right-click on each one and open the image in a new tab.</comment></comment>


Tyk: Micro-grants for side projects - <AUTHOR> https://tyk.io/fund/ <comment><USER2> I remember as a child our school were offering £20 to student teams wanting to run a business for a week, with the team that turns over the greatest profit being the winners. Unfortunately as we were limited in skills and ability, the best project was a car wash.

I wish they run these types of projects in Colleges and Universities, where students are more skilled and motivated to work further out of the box. I would have loved to have been given £20 to buy a little server, a domain, etc, to build some small product over the course of a month with some friends. Hell, turn it into a coursework for programming, project management, etc.

This kind of thing seems like a low-cost, high-value exercise for students to begin to understand the difficulties of business (most will fail - but that's okay).

</comment><comment><USER3> From the site... I like this more than the hucksters out there

How do I receive the funding?

We're not giving away cash money. If you are successful, we will make a payment directly to a product or service provider that you have specified – or an alternative that we suggest – that you need for your side project to grow.

<comment><AUTHOR> Hey!

So basically they don't actually give you the $500 directly (which is probably for the better), but they'll be paying for any services that you need to get your project off the ground + provide guidance. You'd have to apply via their website, and they'll reach out to you--do a quick interview and if they like what they see they'll back your side project.

<comment><USER3> The question is from the website, not my own

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is a great idea, but I wish was slightly larger. Most people with interesting side projects aren't stuck by a lack of $500.

I suppose it is enough to take the risk away from paying for hosting if you are quite uncertain

<comment><USER5> It's a start. Lots of teenagers would love to take that sort of deal.

<comment><USER6> Yeah, but then it's not something "your work won't pay for".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Love the focus on side projects!

If you want help getting your side project off the ground and it fits the mold of an API-first SaaS product, then [https://saasify.sh](https://saasify.sh) may interest you.

</comment><comment><USER8> Excerpt:

How do I receive the funding?

"We're not giving away cash money. If you are successful, we will make a payment directly to a product or service provider that you have specified – or an alternative that we suggest – that you need for your side project to grow."

Now that is brilliant!

Yes, usually side projects get stuck on one or more aspects -- like not being to find the right dedicated server provider, or what have you...

 _By not giving the money directly, they eliminate a whole class of applicants that might apply for, but not really need the money..._

So again, brilliant!

</comment><comment><USER9> I just applied to it for [https://prismos.dev](https://prismos.dev) this is something I have been building for 3 years on the side and while I feel its amazing what this allows one to do, which is build IoT apps with a super easy API and install apps on your esp8266 IoT devices from an App store, no flashing and seamless end user experience, its still seems difficult to monetize to me till far so no point raising funding (atleast till i figure out a go to market strategy), but I would still want people to start using it. While the amount isn't a lot, if it can allow me to fund my AWS infra for a year without worrying about cash while I spend money in promoting it from my pocket, then its great for me.

</comment><comment><USER10> This is very cool. I wonder how many great ideas need something like this, between $0 outside money and VC millions to take off.

Side note: Tyk is an awesome company. I've used their API gateway for a few years. Awesome open source core/enterprise paid model.

<comment><USER6> _> I wonder how many great ideas need something like this, between $0 outside money and VC millions_

Many, but realistically (by experience) £500 is waaay too low to make an impact.

IMHO the problem is in the 4 to 5 digits. 3 digits can be scraped together almost trivially - a credit card, a few months of savings - but they won't make a significant difference. People who need £500 to bootstrap are already finding them.

Now, people who need 5,000 - _those_ are underserved in the UK imho. The bank will likely give you a bad deal (if it does at all), it's too little for real investors, and it's too little to risk giving away half the business anyway; but it could still make a substantial difference, because it would allow you to pay for actual manpower at local rates, without having to roll the dice with fiverr or offshores.

This said, it's a step forward, no doubt.

<comment><USER11> 500€/month is, e.g, what I put extra to my private social security in Germany. If I don't have to choose anymore between "pay hosting for a side project" and "keep a bigger contribution to my retirement" is one less point of friction and one less discussion with my wife about the family budget and one more project where the only thing I might be wasting is my time.

It removes almost all of the downside and keeps all the upside for developers. This kind of funding lowers the activation barrier considerably.

<comment><USER6> I read it as £500 total, not per month. That's the equivalent of eating out one time each month, hardly life-changing.

<comment><USER12> Thanks for the debate on this. I work at Tyk and lead the team running this initiative so find it really useful.

This is the first 'cohort' for the fund, and we are open to increasing the grant size in future. However, keeping it smaller means we're able to make a difference to more projects.

Tyk also started as a side project ourselves, with founders initially working around their day jobs, before bootstrapping for a few years. Because of our own experience we believe there are viable, exciting projects out there that could benefit from this type of small scale help. Applications received seem to suggest this too.

Once we've finished this round there will hopefully be a blog sharing some of the projects helped if you're interested to see. In the meantime, thanks again for the feedback which we'll take on board for next time.

Emma at Tyk

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> A directory of these sorts of grants along with their deadlines and application process would be very useful!

<comment><USER14> There is a directory of sorts here: [https://github.com/nayafia/microgrants](https://github.com/nayafia/microgrants)

(Not with deadlines though, as far as I am aware.)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yeah I came across that, it doesn't really seem actively updated + some of the microgrants that are listed there are inactive now

<comment><USER14> I "watch" it on Github and it still gets updated. If notice out-of-date things you should open an issue or a pull-request.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Thought this would be interesting to share--applications are due March 31st!

</comment><comment><USER15> How does intellectual property work in this case? Is there a probability that my idea will be "stolen" if I share it with this website?

<comment><USER12> I'm afraid I can't speak to intellectual property law, but someone else may be able to. I work for Tyk though, and lead the team for this particular initiative. Thanks for your interest in it.

I can confirm that we do not - and will not ever - ask for any Intellectual Property rights, equity, or 'ROI', in return for the microgrant. The only thing we ask for is the opportunity to share the stories behind the projects we fund. And if winning applicants said no to that too, we'd be fine with that :)

Why are we doing this? We started as a side project ourselves. This new initiative is our way of paying it forward to help others working in their spare time to create open, innovative projects.

Appreciate the point your question raises, so I'll make sure our FAQs are updated to make our position on this clearer. Thank you! Tyk</comment></comment>


Xobni (YC company) mentioned in CNNMoney|Business2.0 - <AUTHOR> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/07/01/100117059/index.htm?postversion=2007070213 <comment><USER2> I'm thinking this is an old article he wrote years ago and updated to meet a deadline. heh. I actually checked the date of the article to see if it was written in the Before Gmail Era. I have wonder if he's ever really tried using Gmail seriously. It addresses most of his complaints pretty well.

He also says _"If you're like me"_ , but how many people are like him or a VC? He's a journalist with a hugely popular blog. Thousands of people want to take a bite out of him. I barely get nibbled at, like most people. I can't personally relate to what he's saying at all.

<comment><AUTHOR> I think you have a very good point. The vocal people that publicly complain about email the most are also susceptible to the most overwhelming inboxes. Most of us are in a different category. However, almost everyone feels that email could be a lot better.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Has anyone here looked into David Allen's "Getting Things Done" ideas? (Mentioned in the article with a link: <http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/07/01/100117066/index.htm>

A good friend of mine has been bugging me about how great this is for a couple years.

<comment><USER4> I've been using GTD for the past year and its worked out very very well.

It's strange that I've always used this philosophy of "what is the next smallest increment of code that can be written?" for development but never applied this in other areas In startups its all the more important that you don't let little things slip.

When I worked in largecorp where MS Outlook was the standard I found this book amazingly useful for GTD [http://www.amazon.com/Total-Workday-Control- Microsoft-Outloo...](http://www.amazon.com/Total-Workday-Control-Microsoft- Outlook/dp/0974930415/ref=pd_sim_b_3_img/103-6619911-1553416)

now since my primary platform is ubuntu I'm looking into the wiki at <http://shared.snapgrid.com/index.html>

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Just for the record, the author, Om Malik, has not seen our software yet. He doesn't even know what we have in store for email :)

</comment><comment><USER5> Pretty harsh words for someone who hasn't even seen your product. Now you just have to blow him away with how effective your cockroach killer really is!

</comment><comment><USER6> I'd like an email client that automatically skins threads into a forum (like this one).

That'd be easy.</comment>


Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83% - <AUTHOR> https://moguldom.com/290447/black-owned-businesses-received-less-than-2-of-ppp-loans-white-owned-got-83/ <comment><USER2> According to the US Census Bureau, 9.4% of businesses were black-owned, as of 2012. According to the same report, 78% of businesses were white-owned in 2012.

[https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press- releases/2015/cb15-209...](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press- releases/2015/cb15-209.html)

<comment><USER3> And 78% of businesses were white-owned as of 2012. (same source)

<comment><USER4> I think the most useful comparison would be to judge it against expenses, since not all businesses would need the same amount of loans. The closest related statistic I could find is that all minority-owned businesses generate around 3% of revenue. The loans seem to have been given out fairly evenly as intended, but the small impact of black businesses on the economy seems like a much more significant disparity.

[https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-01/most-of- amer...](https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-01/most-of-americas- businesses-run-by-white-men-says-census-bureau)

<comment><USER5> So that raises its own set of interesting questions that hits at the core of the issues that the article discusses: why is it the case that 9.4% of businesses are black-owned yet only generate 3% of revenue? Are there issues with, say, obtaining a loan? Do they face challenges to growth that white- owned businesses do not? When fixated on the statistics, it's easy to forget the human questions around the disparity.

<comment><USER4> Absolutely, and that 3% is for all minority-owned businesses, not just black- owned. One large part of the problem is likely that the higher revenue industries are dominated by big businesses that shut out small businesses. Here's an industry breakdown showing a very small representation in industries like information.

[https://blackdemographics.com/economics/black-owned- business...](https://blackdemographics.com/economics/black-owned- businesses/amp/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> To be clear:

> The full list of Paycheck Protection Program recipients released by the > Small Business Administration on Monday shows that of the 14 percent of > businesses that chose to identify race in their loan application, Black- > owned businesses received 1.9 percent of loans while White-owned businesses > received 83 percent.

So the actual percentage of black-owned businesses receiving PPP loans is somewhere from 0.26% - 86.26%, depending on how you think the data is biased.

<comment><AUTHOR> majority of studies are based on sampling

<comment><USER6> You don't understand what sampling is.

<comment><AUTHOR> it is a self-selected sample - which is a sample. Ofcourse it introduces seld self-selection bias. However a vast majority of studies on race in the US rely on self reported data (for thical and legal reasons) and include some element of self selection bias. The end.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> What percentage of loans were applied for by black-owned businesses? Comparing it to population seems like a statistic that is intentionally misleading, I would guess that a lot more businesses are owned by white people than by black people (which is its own issue). I believe only around 10% of businesses are even owned by a black person, so it doesn't surprise me to see that they have a smaller piece of the PPP loan pie...

<comment><AUTHOR> if the article was claiming to show "intent" to discriminate then it would have been misleading. I wrote the article and I never claimed to show intent. I was just showing what as effectively happening and for that the diffeerences in ownership of eligible companies by race is irrelevant.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> If you're going to put together an inflammatory article the least you could do is dive a little deeper and answer the 'Why' question. Why did black-owned businesses receive less than 2% of PPP Loans?

<comment><USER9> It doesn't take that much guessing.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority- busines...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority-business- coronavirus-loans.html)

> Racial discrimination in banking is outlawed on paper, but it continues in > practice — often in subtle forms. In 2018, for instance, the National > Community Reinvestment Coalition, a nonprofit organization that works with > banks to increase the flow of private capital into poor and underserved > communities, sent "mystery shoppers" to 32 different banks in Los Angeles. > It found that potential borrowers with identical financial profiles were > treated differently by bankers based on their race. Black and Latino > borrowers were asked for more detailed financial documents and were given > less information about many banks' available products than white borrowers.

<comment><USER10> Discrimination in lending exists, but at least with PPP loans, there was no in-person consultation. For many businesses it was just an online application.

It probably does hold true though that white businesspeople may have better relationships with their bankers, resulting in faster loan processing.

<comment><USER9> Many lenders required an existing relationship. Disparities in access to banking will absolutely reflect in access to PPP loans.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> In other news, larger corporations are more white-owned, and had the resources to wrangle the PPP loans.

This is a case of small businesses not having the resources to acquire the loans in the first place. Mixing in race obfuscates and distracts from the real issue here. It should have been easier for small businesses and harder for larger ones to balance the scales.

<comment><USER12> We actually have a snapshot on Youtube of personal wealth channels promoting PPP and EIDL during that window.

You can see exactly who was stepping up with quality information and even sort/poll by race if thats your thing.

It was being promoted as free money by some and many offered solid strategies for small businesses to make the 2nd cut and skip the lines.

<comment><USER11> Could you elaborate?

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

Businesses are only concerned with ethics if it improves their bottom line. 'Free' money in uncertain times is an opportunity any business will seize if it has the means to obtain it.

<comment><USER12> I think this is the video that piqued my interest on March 28th. The "how-tos" and "what-is-its" spread like wildfire after that day.

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dwuUAGpWtlo](https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=dwuUAGpWtlo)

We are 15 days into SIP at this point. I do not need PPP/EIDL, but as a prior SBO, I followed this topic with interest. The quality of info was high and SB's had days and sometimes weeks notice on navigating the process.

I read that CVT went on to make $300k a day on YT (somedays) by providing daily updates on stimulus, PPP, EIDL, etc, so the incentive was there to get the word out.

If race is a factor, you'll find it was being discussed in their circles with the same delivery as Brian on YT. If not.. They should have picked a better accountant.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> What percentage of businesses with paid employees are black owned? Without this bit of data, the rest doesn't have any context.

<comment><AUTHOR> In my opinion, it does not matter if 0.1% of companies are Black-owned. In my article, I am not looking to establish intent. I am just showing what is effectively happening and for that the percentage you asked about is irrelevant.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> That site is a mobile ad nightmare.

Also should the thread title mention that only 14% of PPP application respondents provided info on race?

<comment><AUTHOR> The sample size (14%) was large enough statistically.

A majority of modern studies about race rely on sampling.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> For context :

Blacks own about 2.6 million businesses or 9.5 percent of all U.S. businesses

The 19 million white-owned businesses have 88 percent of the overall sales, and control 86.5 percent of U.S. employment, while black businesses have a mere 1.3 percent of total American sales, and 1.7 percent of the nation's employees.

___

The article doesn't clarify if by percent they mean number of loan applications approved or % of loan funding allocated.

If it the former, then black businesses have received far fewer loans than their representative amount. If it is by revenue, then it is actually inline with the ir representation in population.

___

> Monday shows that __of the 14 percent of businesses that chose to identify > race __in their loan application, Black-owned businesses received 1.9 > percent of loans while White-owned businesses received 83 percent.

Might be interesting to see if this trend held when black owners did not identify themselves.

<comment><AUTHOR> The percentages you mentioned would be relevant if I, the author, was look to show intent to discriminate but I was not. I am just showing the effect of the program and for that the percentages you mentioned are entirely irrelevant.

The sample size (14%) was large enough statistically. Might also be interesting to see if this trend was larger when white owners did not identify themselves.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Rejection rate seems like it would be more useful than just percentage of overall acceptance.

<comment><AUTHOR> Rejection rate might give a clue to intent - but even then not really cause it would be hard to tell whether the difference in rejection is justified by other non-racial factors. I wrote the article to show the effect of the policy not the intent of the implementation and for that the metrics I used were appropriate

</comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> I am the author of article. looking at difference in ownership of companies more broadly would be useful to establish intent to discriminate but that is NOT what the article claims to show. I simply show what is effectively happening and for that the stats on ownership of eliegible companies by race are irrelevant.

</comment><comment><USER17> Maybe there are fewer black-owned businesses than white-owned ones.

<comment><AUTHOR> In my article, I am not looking to establish intent. I am just showing what is effectively happening and therefore to make my point it does not matter at all where fewer companies are Black-owned</comment></comment>


Ask HN: What is the current stable help generation system for Windows? - <AUTHOR>

I have a fairly technical question for the HN community, hoping some Windows devs would have the answer.
I'm currently writing documentation for a module I developed on Windows, and the question of migrating our large help base was raised. We are currently still using WinHelp, which exists since the beginning of Microsoft, to generate our offline help and it has became increasingly painful to build the help file (restrictions on txt formats, size, lack of native support in Windows 7).
-WinHelp (1990-2006) 	Our current help engine. Deprecated for almost ten years, yet still functionnal. 	However it needs more and more hacks in order to make it work. On win7 you also 	need certains specials KB patches to view the help files. 	files : hpj, cnt, hlp
-Microsoft Compiled HTML Help (1997-2003) 	Successor to Microsoft WinHelp and  still supported in Windows 7. It look like to me it's the
	current standard help system, however it's been also deprecated for 10 years. 	files: chm
-Microsoft Help 2(2001-2009) 	Help engine used in Microsoft Visual Studio 2002/2003/2005/2008 and Office 2007. Also deprecated. 	files: .hxs, .hxc, .hxk
-Microsoft Help System(2008-) 	Latest evolution of offline help system (used in VS 2010). May or may not be a standard. There is little documentation on it anyway. 	files: I don't even managed to find the input file extension needed.
As I see it, compiled HTML help files seemed to be the way to go, but I'm not sure migrate our help to a deprecated system is the right move. I've skimmed the Windows SDK looking for help files, but it's not coherent (some uses hlp+cnt, others chm, etc.). We are a pure Microsoft-only software team, so I'm not looking for a third-party help generator (like Sphinx or APIDoc).
Is there anyone which could give me some pointers as what would be the current native help system on Windows ? <comment><USER2> All Windows Help files ultimately are are a loose wrapper around Trident's HTML rendering engine.

So why not avoid the needless complexity and simply just open up the default browser and point it at a file:// location on the hard drive which corresponds to the index page which then uses relative URLs (and relative images) to open up sub-pages? Essentially a web server-less help system.

Doing it this way has the following advantages:

\- The entire help system remains "offline."

\- You can however link to "online" articles/content/etc.

\- You can host exactly the same help files using a web-server, and they will work perfectly (because they use relative URLs).

\- You can give the user the option of the offline one shipped with the software, or one you host which is updated.

Windows' Help system has a bunch of downsides. Using a subset of HTML (i.e. stuff that works in IE7) has few to no downsides, and at this point there is a real expectation that an end user will have a web-browser installed.

In Visual Studio 2013, when I click "View Help" it just opens up a web-page. I cannot see why anyone would do anything else at this stage, offline help doesn't even really change that, I'd still use HTML and a browser.

</comment><comment><USER3> We're delivering CHM now and migrating to shipping folders with plain-old- HTML. Customers get the same content locally when they press F1 as they would if they found the documentation online.

Note that if you ship HTML files onto the user's hard drive you may have to implement Marks of the Web on each page so the page is rendered as part of the "internet zone". If you don't, certain javascript features (namely AJAX requests) are disabled as they could be a security risk. Alternatively, ship a small webserver to handle the AJAX requests.

More info: [http://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/ms537628%28v=vs.85%2...](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/ms537628%28v=vs.85%29.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER4> We're using Sandcastle Help File Builder (SHFB) with great success for generating HTML help files.

[https://github.com/EWSoftware/SHFB](https://github.com/EWSoftware/SHFB)

<comment><USER5> I also used Sandcastle. We did a major migration to it in about 2010 (from a 3rd party MSHelp generator application -- I'm blanking on the name, which is a good thing, because I would only tell you to stay away from them)

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> Never tried it, but Rick Strahl's West Wind company make a MS Help building tool. He's been working on it for years so should be fairly stable:

[http://west-wind.com/wwHelp/](http://west-wind.com/wwHelp/)

The only drawback for you might be the price, but you can download a fully functioning free version to give it a spin.

[http://west-wind.com/wwHelp/download.aspx](http://west- wind.com/wwHelp/download.aspx)

</comment><comment><USER7> Put it on the web

<comment> mark-r No, don't put it on the web! If there's one thing I _hate_ about Microsoft's recent help solutions, it's that they're constantly checking the web when you search for something. Even if what you want is loaded locally and instantly available, you end up waiting while it diddles about.

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> I am using Markdown to HTML to CHM.</comment>


PHP 5.4 beta1 released - <AUTHOR> http://www.php.net/archive/2011.php#id2011-09-27-1

<comment><AUTHOR> Detailed change log: <http://www.php.net/releases/NEWS_5_4_0_beta1.txt></comment>


Bored of doing coding and programming - <AUTHOR> Hi, I do have experience more then 8+ years now being developer and DBA, its becoming boring and doesn't seems to be interesting any more,Iam more into managerial stuffs, or interaction, can any one help me how to change and to what profile do I choice for future too. <comment><USER2> You have a thread with plenty of good advice already. Perhaps you can start your changes by deleting this reworded post?

previous: [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13735610](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13735610)</comment>


Case Study: 50% Productivity Increase with Better Quality? - <AUTHOR> http://streamfocus.wordpress.com/2007/07/16/50-productivity-increase-with-better-quality-yes/ We've been using StreamFocus at my architectural firm for the past 6 months, and we are having a dramatic experience: 50% increase in productivity, a large increase in quality, and happier clients and staff with a growing business. This sounds impossible, but it's a fact.... <comment><AUTHOR> _"We've been using StreamFocus at my architectural firm for the past 6 months, and we are having a dramatic experience: 50% increase in productivity, a large increase in quality, and happier clients and staff with a growing business. This sounds impossible, but it's a fact....."_

(YC Comments on the link greatly appreciated)

<comment><USER2> I've seen streamfocus pushed through this site several times already... maybe find a different place to 'market' the product? I don't think we're your target and it starting to read back a little like spam. Congrats on the 50% though...

<comment><AUTHOR> I'm hoping to get feedback here as opposed to trying to sell the service to YCers (which is not yet publicly available). This article actually goes into some of the technology of our (Lisp based) system which is a whole new approach to project management, which I think makes it relevant for YC. We are a startup trying to find some private beta testers here as well.

Another example, we would really appreciate feedback on our new logo at <http://www.streamfocus.com> which has been difficult to finalize.

<comment><USER3> for pete's sake, man, post some screenshots! I am having a really hard time understanding what your product is.

<comment><USER4> You can get a hint from the vocabulary in the article. I bet they are doing a web app based on David Allen's _Getting Things Done_.

Edit: [http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2005/03/08/productivity....](http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2005/03/08/productivity.html) ; it has a link to a Python implementation based on plain text files, which is something I once did too for myself, but regrettably I didn't follow up with it.

<comment><AUTHOR> The whole application started because we needed a tool to help my firm implement Lean Management to gain the kind of tranformation that Toyota and many others had achieved, and there were none out there. With Architecture and most service companies, a vast amount of information needs to be organized in the right way to really be lean, so analog methods really don't work well. We tried it first with binders and post-it-notes and white boards but it slowed us down.

"Getting Things Done" is a great productivity breakthrough as well, and when combined with lean, is really impressive - which is what we are doing. Lean helps provide the framework for what to do and how to do it, while GTD helps you actually get it done.

One of the enhancements to GTD that we've got is that rather than think about the next action you need to make, we provide a way to think about the next stream of actions which can can be templated for future use - it has been a great boost for us.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Arctic stronghold of world's seeds flooded after permafrost melts - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/19/arctic-stronghold-of-worlds-seeds-flooded-after-permafrost-melts <comment><USER2> >"It was designed as an impregnable deep-freeze to protect the world's most precious seeds from any global disaster and ensure humanity's food supply forever. But the Global Seed Vault, buried in a mountain deep inside the Arctic circle, has been breached after global warming produced extraordinary temperatures over the winter, sending meltwater gushing into the entrance tunnel."

This story makes the design/management of that place look really bad. In 2007 the IPCC was predicting a 0.4 C average temperature rise by 2020 and about 1.0 C by 2040[1], etc. This isn't too far off from what happened[2], so this makes it look like they did not plan ahead at all.

[1] [http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment- report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr_spm...](http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment- report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr_spm.pdf) (Figure SPM.5)

[2] [http://www.woodfortrees.org/graph/wti](http://www.woodfortrees.org/graph/wti)

<comment><USER3> That and saving the seeds of flowering plants without preserving eggs of pollinating insects isn't very useful.

<comment><USER4> I remember hearing I think it was a Radiolab episode which talked of an instance where a lot pollination was done by humans, by hand, with paint brushes and pollen. It turned out that the humans were actually better at it than the insects, because they were more consistent. So the result was a crop that was larger than it would have been had insects done the pollinating.

It's kind of a "waste" of human effort to do manual pollination like that rather than having insects do it "for free", but in an emergency, if that's all you've got, then it can be done.

It also seems to me like this kind of work would be ripe for automation with robots or drones somewhere down the line if, say, most bees wound up dying out and humans were forced to pollinate by hand at a large scale.

<comment><USER5> podcast - [http://www.radiolab.org/story/what-dollar-value- nature/](http://www.radiolab.org/story/what-dollar-value-nature/)

blog - [http://www.radiolab.org/story/how-important- bee__kw/](http://www.radiolab.org/story/how-important-bee__kw/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> "It was not in our plans to think that the permafrost would not be there and that it would experience extreme weather like that,"

Sorry, but isn't that the entire point of a "doomsday vault". To protect from doomsday events, like extreme climate change?

<comment><USER7> It not really a doomsday vault despite the media trying to portrait it like that. It's really a seed storage for anyone who wants to store some seeds.

I visited the vault a few years ago and was very disappointed to learn this. I had imagined some committee planning what we need to get back from Mad Max to normal. But it's really more like a bank lock box.

<comment><USER8> But..

 _"We have to find solutions. It is a big responsibility and we take it very seriously. We are doing this for the world."

"This is supposed to last for eternity," said Åsmund Asdal at the Nordic Genetic Resource Centre, which operates the seed vault._

<comment><USER7> Yes, it is supposed to last "forever". It's not however a "doomsday vault" that is supposed to protect from "doomsday events". It's not meant to carry us through the apocalypse or literally last forever.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> "Fortunately, the meltwater did not reach the vault itself, the ice has been hacked out, and the precious seeds remain safe for now at the required storage temperature of -18C."

</comment><comment><USER4> It would be interesting to learn what mistakes were made on a process level here.

Were warnings from people who predicted flooding ignored for some reason, like warning of concerned NASA engineers about the safety of the Space Shuttle? Or did no one honestly predict flooding in a region covered by snow despite global warming?

There could be some valuable lessons here for participants in Long Now and similar projects.

</comment><comment><USER10> _The vault's managers are now waiting to see if the extreme heat of this winter was a one-off or will be repeated or even exceeded as climate change heats the planet._

I really want to believe that this is an example of poor communication by the journalist as opposed to clueless passivity by administrators. Unfortunately, I suspect it's accurate.

<comment><USER11> Later on the article describes that they installed pumps and removed heat sources. Of course that doesn't solve the problem of operating without humans and without flooding, but I imagine getting funding for major changes is much easier once it's exceedingly clear that this wasn't a fluke.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> > "failsale" against "man-made disasters"

Nothing is fool proof to a sufficiently talented fool!

</comment><comment><USER13> >When it was opened in 2008, the deep permafrost through which the vault was sunk was expected to provide "failsafe" protection against "the challenge of natural or man-made disasters".

Guess it wasn't all that fail safe after all

</comment><comment><USER14> If you'd like to see more about how the Svalbard Seed Vault works and how countries including North Korea have seeds stored there, Veritasium has a great video on the subject: [https://youtu.be/2_OEsf-1qgY](https://youtu.be/2_OEsf-1qgY)

</comment><comment><USER15> It looks like an engineering flaw that lets outside water into the vault. "A lot of water went into the start of the tunnel and then it froze to ice, so it was like a glacier when you went in," The fact that the water froze as it entered is good as that means the vault was still very cold. Likely this has an engineering fix. It would be nice if the article discussed if the vault temp was rising faster than expected and if/when passive cooling would fail in the future. This should be the real worry about vault failure. Sophisticated click bait, really.

</comment><comment><USER16> Ice coated satellite on a reL long ellipse.. Seed drop on no signal in capsules in exp time intervals

</comment><comment><USER17> Antarctica then?

<comment><USER10> What's the point of putting it somewhere maximally inaccessible with lots of ice? I was never that sold on the idea of putting it on a coastal island to begin with. I realize they want somewhere cold but a large mountain cave seems a better bet. That's where we put things that are meant to withstand nuclear war or similarly drastic upheavals.

I don't blame the organizers for that, it's a lot harder to raise money for protecting biodiversity than for making weapon systems, but this outcome suggests to me that our institutional cooperation models of governance are not working well.

<comment> rm_-rf_slash Placing the vault in a more populous and accessible region increases the possibility of, well, take your pick: theft, terrorism, political interference, collateral damage in the case of war, and so on.

<comment><USER10> The existence of other considerations doesn't validate the poor choices that have already been made. I said at the time that putting a vault on a small island near sea level might not be a great plan given the wholly predictable rise in sea levels over the long term.

It was a predictably stupid decision, and the only surprising part is that the stupidity became obvious so early rather than 50 or 75 years from now as more conservative models of climate change suggested could be the case.

I am _absolutely_ in favor of projects like this that are built to maximize survivability of ecosystems in the face of unpredictable change. But you are saying that all risks are equivalent over the long term and it's impossible to choose between them, which I think is an absurd copout.

The reality here is that there wasn't enough money or political will to invest in something more obviously permanent, so we ended up with a shitty system that has started to fail within a single decade, will now probably have to be decommissioned (because the problem is only likely to get worse), and we've got to start over. It's not a total write-off, much valuable work has been done, but it's plain that trying to cheap out on the location was a dreadful false economy.

<comment><USER18> The vault is 130m above sea level. It's not going to flood even if the arctic and antarctic both melt entirely.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Do Psychopaths Make the World Go Round? - <AUTHOR> http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/06/do-psychopaths-make-the-world-go-round

<comment><USER2> As a person who does not experience empathy (that is, a psychopath), I am somewhat insulted that Robert Lamb is telling the Internet that I am also "dishonest, undependable, impulsive, prone to irresponsible behavior for no reason, prone to casual and callous interpersonal and romantic relationships," and "quick to make excuses for [my] actions, blaming others." It seems especially bad that Mr. Lamb chooses to misinform people about psychopathy under the guise of clearing up misconceptions about psychopathy.

Now that I notice he lifted these words from the Scientific American article he linked, I guess I can only assume that he didn't know that he was misinforming people. I would prefer that a distinction be made between the characteristics necessary to be a psychopath and the ones that commonly occur in psychopaths, so as to make a better impression of psychopaths in the mind of the reader.

<comment><USER3> Reviewing your comment history, where you clearly express emotion and some empathy, and acknowledge consequences, you don't fit the bill as a psychopath. You may share certain attributes with psychopathy, or fancy yourself being one, but all indications are that you are not one.

The second indicator that you are not a psychopath is that you disagree with Robert Lamb's description of psychopathy, which are not insults -- they are the qualifying traits of a psychopath.

<comment><USER2> It pleases me to hear that I give the impression of empathy.

My impression of the (recent) literature on the matter was that absence of empathy, in addition to the criteria for ASPD, is necessary and sufficient for one to be considered a psychopath. One could easily have both of these things without also being unreliable, impulsive, or dishonest.

<comment><USER3> I think that you're deluding yourself, for whatever reason.

And on your second point, your impression is incorrect. These are qualifying traits of ASPD (formerly "psychopathy").

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This is falling into pop psychology. Psychology is like linguistics - you can describe it using a rough model, but should keep in mind that it's all just an abstraction.

Actually, there's some value in telling people that narrow-minded prescriptive grammars are "correct" - that encourages people to write the same way. Encouraging people to think of every little deviation as a disorder can do much more harm than good.

Queue an onslaught of self-diagnosed "Hare psychopaths" who will try to act out the role.

Yes, there are probably a few real psychopaths out there in the extremes. But that's no reason to encourage people with a mild case of "Asshole Personality Disorder" to start telling themselves they are merciless machines who are capable of anything.

</comment><comment><USER5> " _Maybe spies, lawyers and bosses need a dash of the unhinged if they're to betray, scrutinize, and fire those around them. Sure, they make sucky friends and sucky spouses, but the rest of the time they're making the trains run on time._ "

betrayal, unreasonable scrutiny, and the ability to fire people is not what the world needs. People who think so are often incredible softies intrigued by their own cruelty. There are better alternative approaches that involve more than predator instinct and egomania.

<comment><USER6> Psychopaths make terrible spies and soldiers, for what should be obvious reasons. They have no sense of honor and they're individualistic in some very dangerous ways. The military tries to filter them out, not bring them in. Since lawyers and business leaders have to make much easier decisions than people in the military, I'd argue the same for those jobs.

There is one job at which psychopaths are, in all aspects, better performers (more effective, less likely to quit) than anyone else: torturing-- an act that produces no value (as an interrogation technique, it's nearly useless) and something that people shouldn't be doing in the first place.

<comment><USER7> _There is one job at which psychopaths are, in all aspects, better performers (more effective, less likely to quit) than anyone else: torturing_

And also sales. But I guess that's just a subset of torturing, if popups, Flash-ads, and background music on ad pages is any indication.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> You can spin almost anything into a positive light. Like, "hey I know I killed you, but you know what, this is just a horrible world that you are better off death". I wonder if Hitler was a psychopath, he may have been. <sarcasm> He certainly made the world go round, fighting him lit a fire under all the western nations which in turn allowed us to make great advances in rocketry, nuclear power, and god knows what. Sure, he killed millions of innocent people but you know what, at least he did make the world go round. Even Germany benefited immensely, it emerged as a world economic power. Thank god for psychopaths, what would we do without them. </sarcasm>

<comment><USER9> Exactly. But though you emphasize it with _< sarcasm>_ it still might contain a lot of truth [1]. Its known as the "Mephisto Principle":

 _Mephisto: "I am a part of that power, that constantly wants to do harm and constantly creates the good." (Goethe, Faust 1)_ [2]

As an example, let's assume that, soon, human race has to become interplanetary in order to survive. Now, are we more likely to get there with threat of inter-human war and large defense funding? Perhaps. Until recently, I used to call DARPA money "dirty" and insulted many fellow students this way. But I'm starting to realize this _might_ be naive. Without DARPA Net I might not be able to have this discussion here.

[1] If I had the choice I would go back in time and prevent it. But that would still be a difficult decision. I guess this play of thought does not not lead to anything useful. A more useful question might be: Would you like to prevent a future world war. Sure! [2] <http://www.maxeiner-miersch.de/mephisto_e.htm>

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> The more strongly everyone is inclined to cooperate, the more advantage there is to individually defect and exploit. And the more people defecting, the more benefit there is to cooperation.

At the very core of moral theory is this conflict of individual and group. And I suppose evolution just realises that in some form of perpetual dynamic equilibrium.

</comment><comment><USER6> I'll answer this: fuck, no.

Psychopaths are good at taking credit for others' accomplishments but rarely produce anything of value. They're generally quite lazy, in fact. They're politically effective and do well in many social environments in the short run, but their long-term contributions are almost always disastrous.

You don't need to be a psychopath to make tough decisions: firing bad employees, for example. You just need experience, vision, and the willingness to take responsibility for difficult decisions.

I think a slight narcissism can be beneficial as a motivator for some people, but that's a different discussion.

<comment><USER11> You completely nailed it.

<comment><USER12> HN, you dropped the ball here. Even Reddit would spot a comment like "Nailed it" and see that it doesn't contribute in any way.

This community should try to stop a decline in quality...

<comment><USER9> For people not used to the HN / Reddit point system this requires some learning. I had my fair share of "I second this" posts and took my down votes.

As long as HN is growing and new people, who are used to pin boards and mailing lists without a voting system, come in, you will have this problem. Just down vote them if you have ability.

Maybe, this should be more emphasized in the FAQ [1]. When I signed up here recently it was _not_ obvious to me, that such posts should be avoided.

[1] <http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html>

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> No, no, no. Psychopathy in a leader has a net effect toward organizational mediocrity, at best. Start observing in the real world and this becomes obvious.

</comment><comment><USER14> There is a difference between psychopathy and selfish disregard: selfish disregard wants to be justified, wants to connect to reasons for its disregard -- it is not fully disjunct from societal norms. This association here is nonsense and revealing. No psychopath can function in an institution (for long) and neither can a sociopath. As said elsewhere by others, just because you don't want germs on your hands doesn't mean you're OCD. Likewise, just because you harbor highly self-centered traits, it doesn't mean you are a psychopath.

It's so nice to have a label for your guilt. If you don't subscribe to a religion, then picking up the DSM-IV/V is the next best thing.

Poor thinking at best; irresponsible definition at worst.

</comment><comment><USER15> "The reasonable man bends himself to suit the world. The unreasonable man bends the world to suit himself. Without the unreasonable man, there can be no progress."

Now, I agree with other here who claim you can be slightly narcissistic, unreasonable etc without being a psychopath. But there's something in the theory - and especially in that quote, which I love and whose source I will now try to track down - that applies to my goals in life, and probably to many startups.

Edit: George Bernard Shaw: _"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."_

<comment><USER11> This has nothing to do with being a psychopath.

You can be stubborn and still be a lover.

You can be firm and still donate your time.

Psychopaths are "me, me, me". Startups are about "how can we enter into a mutually beneficial voluntary exchange?"

So, no, psychopaths do not help startups at all. In fact, I'd say it would be quite rare for a diagnosed psychopath to have a successful startup.

<comment><USER16> From what I have heard, serial killers are typically small business owners. It helps give them the freedom they need to do as they please. (I think that cuts both ways and can also be a force for good: Supposedly, the founding fathers of the US felt strongly that democracy was best safeguarded by having plenty of independent small business owners -- i.e. people positioned to speak their own minds publicly and not fear being fired for it.)

<comment><USER11> I'd like to see those stats.

<comment><USER16> I don't have any stats. It is something I have seen on TV shows (like 'Cold Case Files') where they talk about profiling -- the detailed kind, not the "fast driving ethnic male is probably a drug dealer" kind. But the kind where they run it past a forensic psychologist and get a detailed report to help them find a serial killer. They repeatedly say that serial killers tend to be small business owners, in part because they don't do well with a regular job where other folks are telling them what to do. And in two of the cases I recall, when they did find the killer, he was, in fact, a small business owner and closely fit many of their other parameters surprisingly well. I would suggest you google it if you are interested in actual stats. (If you do, sharing would be cool.)

Sorry I can't do better than that. But have an upvote cuz it's a great question.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Related: Jon Ronson's "The Psyocopath Test" (<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6aCir5bu-c>)

Also featured on the recent This American Life podcast.

</comment><comment><USER18> "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." --George Bernard Shaw

</comment><comment><USER19> He meant 2011 science festival, right?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2644349>

</comment><comment><USER20> curious. i would have expected a more positive response here. like the article says, psychopaths have the positive characteristics necessary for an entrepreneur. there was a quote from pg a while back (can't remember the wording, but it was discussed here) about looking for people who fit the same description.

of course, i'm not saying entrepreneurs are loony axe wielders. but i don't see why psycopathy has to be binary all or nothing. every day i see the less pleasant (more psycopathic) people getting ahead.

the nice guy finishes last. it's common knowledge. why all the naysayers? guilt?

<comment><USER21> "the nice guy finishes last. it's common knowledge."

It's an old, tired cliche.

<comment><USER22> Which Richard Dawkins using Game Theory found to be wrong-

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_Guys_Finish_First>

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Maybe they just solve the problems created by themselves.

</comment><comment><USER24> Only if you let them.

</comment><comment><USER25> Probably not.

But one thing I'd think is true is that no person that is primarily nice and sociable has ever done anything that has significantly advanced the state of anything worthwile.</comment>


Magnetic Shark Repellent - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_shark_repellent <comment><USER2> I live in an island where people got obsessed by sharks lately, and divers were charged while wearing this device [1] ( usually sharks don't attack divers here, only surfers).

[1] [http://www.zinfos974.com/Le-shark-shocker-le-repulsif- anti-r...](http://www.zinfos974.com/Le-shark-shocker-le-repulsif-anti-requin- en-vente-a-Boucan_a32819.html)</comment>


Introducing F*: Secure Distributed Programming with Value-Dependent Types - <AUTHOR> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/?id=141708 <comment><AUTHOR> Warning for those downloading the PDF on that page, it's 1.6MB.

There is also a compiler project here: <http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/projects/fstar/>

And you can try out F* (by validating code) on the web here: <http://rise4fun.com/FStar>

And for anyone who has noticed my submissions in the last couple of days, I'm basically reading my way through the SIGPLAN papers for ICFP 2011 and picking out interesting things that others might like too: <http://www.icfpconference.org/icfp2011/accepted.html>

<comment><USER2> It seems that Microsoft is doing extremely interesting fundamental CS research (especially into automated verification/program correctness/security) these days. I'm enthusiastic about it, though I somehow fear the end result will at most be some expensive proprietary extension to Visual Studio only targeting .NET instead of an open implementation benefiting everyone.

<comment><USER3> > I somehow fear the end result will at most be some expensive proprietary > extension

That hasn't been the case with their research, so far. See F#'s download page for an example: [http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/cambridge/projects/fs...](http://research.microsoft.com/en- us/um/cambridge/projects/fsharp/release.aspx)

<comment><USER2> Pretty cool. From that page they even provide instructions for Linux and Mac: <http://functional-variations.net/crossplatform/> . So the F# "source drop" is licensed under the Apache2 license?

I guess I should give them the benefit of the doubt, it's just a bit difficult for me given their track record.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Hmmm, they didn't verify the correctness of the translator or CLR?

<comment><USER5> If you verify the correctness of the CLR, by the same reasoning don't you have to verify the correctness of Windows as well?

<comment><USER4> Yes, I hadn't thought of that. The point is that proving part of a process correct without proving correct the entire stack, is no guarantee that it does anything like what it's supposed to.

<comment><USER6> But, if you don't even try to prove part of a process correct, it's almost certainly wrong. See the excellent work that John Regehr's group is doing related to compiler and optimization verification/testing (<http://www.cs.utah.edu/~regehr/research/> ), much of which has been talked about here.

There are other folks who have successfully done formal verification of operating systems, device drivers, hardware design, etc. It's a big, hard problem, but we'll get to the "whole stack" eventually.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Two-thirds of Android users vulnerable to web history ransomware - <AUTHOR> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/01/29/android_ransomware/ <comment><USER2> I am not following. In order for this ransomware to work a user has to: download the apk from outside the appstore and enable third party sources in order to install it?

<comment><USER3> It seems that way.

You probably also need to deactivate Play Services. The root access it gets sounds like Something that Play can detect very easily (and block the app) .

That would not make a good headline though.</comment></comment>


Prisma: neural-style instagram filters - <AUTHOR> http://thenextweb.com/apps/2016/07/08/prisma-app-mindblowing/#gref <comment><USER2> I found it interesting that all of the rendering is done server side. If you turn your phone into airplane mode, the app no longer works. I suppose it makes sense -- a server provides more flexibility in how you do the heavy lifting (is it in fact a neural network?).

<comment><USER3> It always irks me when I discover that an 'app' for an apparently 'computational' (and localisable) task is nothing but a client for logic that resides and runs elsewhere: it means that the idea of having a free-standing program is an illusion and _that if something happens to the company the app will stop working_ rather than merely become abandonware.

So yes, it might make sense, but it is at some level disappointing.

<comment><USER4> Eh.. in this particular case it really makes sense to do it server-side. A beefy core i7 can take a couple of hours to do the style transfer and you ideally want a farm of GPUs to handle the client requests. Doing it client- side on the phone would absolutely drain your entire battery and take half a day or more.

<comment><USER5> They are probably using a newer approach, where they pre-train a neural network and use forward propagation only. With this technique, applying the effect can take less than one second. See [https://github.com/DmitryUlyanov/texture_nets](https://github.com/DmitryUlyanov/texture_nets) for more details. You can also try it here: [http://turbo.deepart.io/](http://turbo.deepart.io/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> There's an excellent website, [http://deepart.io](http://deepart.io), it does the same thing, and allows you to upload your own image to use as a style.

</comment><comment><USER7> It's really great that someone is productising this technology so quickly.

It was only a few months ago that this involved grabbing a repo off github, and working out how to process it yourself.

Now I'm seeing this stuff being posted by non-technical friends on my facebook feed.

I want to see how well the video works, as it seems that's only been solved recently.

[http://arxiv.org/abs/1604.08610](http://arxiv.org/abs/1604.08610) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxax5EKg0zA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uxax5EKg0zA)

</comment><comment><USER8> IIRC you only get to choose from a fixed set of styles to process your image, right? Then they're probably using this algorithm to precompute the style model and seriously speed up rendering: [http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.08155](http://arxiv.org/abs/1603.08155)

</comment><comment><USER9> I am really amazed by the results on the article! Eagerly waiting for Android version! There is also one open-source lib like this [https://github.com/jcjohnson/neural- style](https://github.com/jcjohnson/neural-style)</comment>


Codota AI Pair Programmer - <AUTHOR> https://www.codota.com/ <comment><USER2> What are people's impression of these kinds of tools?</comment>