Banksy Dismaland Show Revealed at Weston's Tropicana - <AUTHOR> http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-33999495 <comment><USER2> There's also [http://hyperallergic.com/231114/banksys-new-apocalyptic- them...](http://hyperallergic.com/231114/banksys-new-apocalyptic-theme-park- is-designed-to-disappoint/), which might be a bit more substantive. via [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10095509](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10095509).

</comment><comment><USER3> It's funny how commercial Banksy's art has become. People track down his art, rip it out of walls and sell it for millions of dollars to the very people that the art is mocking.

I like what Max Tempkin said in regards to selling people literal crap for $6 a piece: "... [T]here's no protesting capitalism. There's nothing you can say about capitalism that it won't subsume and sell back to you." [1]

[1] [http://blog.maxistentialism.com/post/105481561063/](http://blog.maxistentialism.com/post/105481561063/)

<comment><USER4> My favourite story on a similar note is how a Marc Jacob's boutique was vandalised a few years ago. The vandal spray painted "ART" across the front of the store. Marc Jacobs responded by photographing it and putting it on a teeshirt and selling it for $700.

[http://www.huhmagazine.co.uk/3721/art-by-art-jacobs-t- shirt](http://www.huhmagazine.co.uk/3721/art-by-art-jacobs-t-shirt)

<comment><USER5> Mind-boggling to think about, but could the vandal assert copyright over the spray painted wordmark?

<comment><USER6> Not really.

For reference, Richard Prince's derivative 'artwork', particularly the slight modification of artwork from other artists without consent has more often than not been ruled fair use — [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-17/richard- pr...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-17/richard-prince- instagram-and-authorship-in-a-digital-world)

<comment><USER7> Geez, it's depressing what this stuff says about us. The definition of "art" becomes "anything produced by an Approved Artist," nothing less or more. If I showed up at the Frieze Gallery trying to sell them a piece of shit on a plate, they'd laugh in my face. If I produced documentation proving that the plate had in fact been shat upon by Andy Warhol, it would suddenly be Art and worth a fortune. If I revealed that I had faked the documentation, it would suddenly be worthless again--unless the whole routine had attracted enough attention for the art world to crown me a Designated Artist, in which case anything I smeared shit on henceforth would become, by fiat, Art.

There is literally no quality intrinsic to the work itself that contributes to its status as Art. Traditionally someone says "Hah, I could have made that," and someone else smiles smugly and says "Yes, but you didn't, did you?" The thing is, it wouldn't matter if I had. I'm not an Artist, so wouldn't be Art.

Art is reduced to nothing more than a subset of Celebrity.

Richard Prince could print out this post and sell it for $50,000.

<comment><USER8> This is not just true of art but even with businesses that get funded by VCs or that make it into Y Combinator. The latest group dating or photo sharing app might just be another dull piece of crap until it gets validated by the celebrity of VCs or an accelerator.

<comment><USER9> What an idea: businesses as collectibles.

A baseball in the gift shop for $5 versus identical baseball that happened to be Alex Rodriguez's 500th home run fetching $105,000.

It's not the nature of art, it's purchasing the story around it.

idlewords had a name for this: investor storytime. [1] All these examples have less to do with whether something is or isn't "art" and more about whether the mystique around the story appeals to someone who is willing to part with cash to be part of that a story. A plate with shit is a plate with shit, but a plate of shit with a story? Now you're talking.

[1] [http://idlewords.com/talks/internet_with_a_human_face.htm](http://idlewords.com/talks/internet_with_a_human_face.htm)

<comment><USER8> I'd argue the send glitter to your enemies business was an example of business as art/collectible. MillionDollarHomepage perhaps another example.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Anyone interested in Banksy but doesn't know much about him? Check out "Exit Through the Gift Shop". About half way through it turns into the most hilarious documentary I have ever seen.

<comment><USER11> There's also a great documentary on HBO that follows Banksy's residency in NY.

<comment><USER12> That one's a bit sad because it shows the local taggers defacing his stencils shortly after they are in place.

<comment><USER13> Why not? That's the environment of these works.

<comment><USER14> Perhaps _that 's_ the idea. The defacement is supposed to happen, and we are to feel sad about it.

<comment><USER15>
       I MET a Traveler from an antique land,
       Who said, "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
       Stand in the desart. Near them, on the sand,
       Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
       And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
       Tell that its sculptor well those passions read,
       Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
       The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
       And on the pedestal these words appear:
       "My name is OZYMANDIAS, King of Kings."
       Look on my works ye Mighty, and despair!
       No thing beside remains. Round the decay
       Of that Colossal Wreck, boundless and bare,
       The lone and level sands stretch far away.

\- _Ozymandias_ , Percy Bysshe Shelley

Everything we make is ephemeral, nothing will last. It will be transformed by man or by nature. Either in its meaning or its form. And, ultimately, it will fall to the elements.

EDIT: I recently learned that there's a second poem, this one by Horace Smith. The two wrote their poems as a competition.

      IN Egypt's sandy silence, all alone,
        Stands a gigantic Leg, which far off throws
        The only shadow that the Desart knows:—
      "I am great OZYMANDIAS," saith the stone,
        "The King of Kings; this mighty City shows
      "The wonders of my hand."— The City's gone,—
        Nought but the Leg remaining to disclose
      The site of this forgotten Babylon.

      We wonder,—and some Hunter may express
      Wonder like ours, when thro' the wilderness
        Where London stood, holding the Wolf in chace,
      He meets some fragment huge, and stops to guess
        What powerful but unrecorded race
        Once dwelt in that annihilated place.

\- _Ozymandias_ , Horace Smith

<comment><USER6> Pertinent on empherialness of art, politics, and existence:

"How Wang Fo Was Saved", by Marguerite Yourcenar & Animated by Rene Laloux (animator of "La Planète Sauvage")

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbe_19I0vhs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbe_19I0vhs)

<comment><USER16> An odd thread for Hacker News, critiques of capitalism, poetry and reflection upon the ephemeral nature of things and - more shocking yet - references to La Planete Sauvage.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> chestnut-tree The UK's Channel 4 News has a good video report on Dismaland here (approx 6 mins):

 _Dismaland: inside Banksy's dystopian playground_

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wruEnynr1w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wruEnynr1w)

<comment><USER17> Cool. If he moves this to america I would love to apply for a job as a pissed off usher.

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> If you're not already familiar with Banksy, this is my favorite piece from his New York residency: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX54DIpacNE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX54DIpacNE)

And here is where the Simpsons had Banksy design their opening: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX1iplQQJTo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX1iplQQJTo)

</comment><comment><USER19> How Banksy still is anonymous with all this?

If you don't know him, checkout his website: [http://banksy.co.uk/](http://banksy.co.uk/)

P.S: It's known that it's a "he". That's why I used "he" and "his"

<comment><USER20> one of the UK papers figured out who he was a few years ago. i know he didnt officially admit it but if you read this article it is pretty clear they actually did track him down (in my opinion anyways)

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1034538/Graffiti-a...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1034538/Graffiti- artist-Banksy-unmasked---public-schoolboy-middle-class-suburbia.html)

<comment><USER16> Not a lot of credibility to the daily mail; it could be right, but they just outright make shit up sometimes. It's basically a tabloid.

<comment><USER21> Er, it is quite literally a tabloid. No basically about it. It's not a broadsheet.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> The point I've taken away from Dismaland is how most theme parks are _already_ Dismaland.

Think of what would make for an awful theme park: high price to enter, long queues everywhere, screaming kids, highly priced low quality food, security checks, a constant push to buy crap.. that's _already_ what we allow to pass as a theme park, yet people willingly sign up to enter.

</comment><comment><USER5> Interesting to see how well-made some of these pieces are. The overturned horse and the killer whale look very high quality. I wonder how Banksy produces these and maintains his or her anonymity, as the pieces look like they are the work of large teams of professionals.

<comment><USER22> I think it's been definitely shown he actually has (is?) a large team of professionals, if you watch "exit through the gift shop" you will see the setup for some of the works which uses many different people.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> Two other links with photos and a excerpt of an interview with Banksy about the park.

[http://www.juxtapoz.com/current/preview-inside-banksy-s- dism...](http://www.juxtapoz.com/current/preview-inside-banksy-s-dismaland- tropicana-weston-super-mare)

[http://www.juxtapoz.com/current/october-2015-banksy-s- dismal...](http://www.juxtapoz.com/current/october-2015-banksy-s-dismaland- exclusive-interview)

</comment><comment><USER24> Hasn't this already been covered on this season of Bojack Horseman?

</comment><comment><USER25> I worked in Bristol between last and this year. Sometime around August maybe last year on a Monday morning, as i was having a work break outside the building, i looked over the corner and a new Bansky was on the wall (girl with the earing). In the afternoon, a wave of admirers was already rolling in. By tuesday, someone had already dafaced the piece, by splashing black ink over some parts of it.

<comment><USER26> I guess I'd prefer the defacement to the aforementioned chopping off to turn into sellable art.

<comment><USER25> I think that in the end it may not matter; if i had to classify "real" art and was thinking clearly, i'd say "real" art is the message that the piece carries, as the piece itself is just wood, stone, ink or whatever, can be defaced, taken off a wall and sold to a rich guy's living room wall whereas the message is intangible.

So i guess censorship would actually be the worst case.

Ps. This line of thought relates to some of the other comments in these threads ("... [T]here's no protesting capitalism. There's nothing you can say about capitalism that it won't subsume and sell back to you." [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10093768](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10093768))

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Things really are getting worse for most people now. Something that maybe we aren't used to as technologists in our little bubbles away from the rest of the economy.

Dismaland is not even satire, it's a reflection of what is really happening as the rich try to prop up a system that looks like its about to fail again... buy gold and bitcoin.

</comment><comment><USER28> Really wish he would pull something like this stateside at Lake Dolores: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Dolores_Waterpark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Dolores_Waterpark)

</comment><comment><USER29> Absolutely beautiful work. Love it.

At the same time, though, as a commentary by the acclaimed Banksy, isn't "Disneyland is over-commercialized hell" a cliched theme at this point?

<comment><USER30> I'm no art critic, but I suspect Disneylands commercialism is not the target of the commentary at all (more likely the direction of modern society or 21st century Britain or something like that), it is just the physical manifestation or visual theme of that commentary.

A bit like how the Stay Puft Marshmellow Man is not really a deity, but the physical manifestation of Gozer the Gozerian. You miss the point somewhat if you concentrate on the marshmellow.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Looks cool, but god damn it's redundant.

<comment><USER32> I don't know. Seems a bit timely.

Bob Iger of Disney this week has said, that they are at a point with their content/merch/theme parks etc able to "burn out" the entire consuming population of the country if they wanted too...

Imagine what that overoptimized machine can do in a few years from now.

<comment><USER33> Maybe Bob should just Let It Go.

<comment><USER34> ... into the vault for 25 years.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> Well played, Mr. Banksy, well played. (golf clap)</comment>


Introducing Opener - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/ios-os-x-development/introducing-opener-497136c3e09c

<comment><USER2> This is one of those things that Android got right early on, URLs can have 'open handlers' no matter whether they appear - in an email, on the web or a link to google maps that opens the Maps app from another app.

Not only can an Android app register that it handles links for a given domain or scheme, but _multiple apps_ can be available, if say, you've written a better imgur or flickr viewer. But the UX to say "always open this type of link in this app" is simple and unobtrusive as well.

Shame iOS hasn't yet followed along with this, but I suspect it might be one of those things that would substantially affect legacy iOS apps.

<comment><AUTHOR> Totally agreed, Android does a way better job of this. Opener is a stopgap on iOS, but it would be way better if Apple had a first party fix. Rumor has it there's one coming soon.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> > Why don't links just open in apps?

I am not familiar with iOS but in Android they do, since day one, how is iOS different in that regard?

<comment> k-mcgrady On iOS a URL scheme needs to be setup usually. (e.g. itms:// links open the iTunes store app). I don't think there's a right way to do this really. Half the time I'm frustrated a link didn't open in the app and the other half I'm frustrated it didn't just open in the browser.

<comment><AUTHOR> You're correct, iOS apps can only handle schemes but now whole URLs. On Android, the system can intercept any URL and pass it to the app ([http://instagram.com/blahblahblah](http://instagram.com/blahblahblah) goes to the Instagram app, for example), which means web URLs can open in apps instead. On iOS, you must use a dedicated scheme, which means links from the web don't play nice with apps.

Opener attempts to fix this by mapping web links to app-specific links.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> How does it compare with [http://applinks.org/](http://applinks.org/)?

<comment><AUTHOR> App Links is an "open" solution from Facebook that's poorly adopted by developers. Opener is a solution intended directly for end users that doesn't rely on developer to adopt some standard. Developers usually won't adopt something like App Links, but end users still want to open links in apps. I wrote Opener to fill the gap :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER5> This looked awesome, but I found it on the app store and you're charging. I don't think this is a serious enough problem for me to pay you to fix it.

<comment><USER6> There's been a few products like this recently on iOS and Mac (by like this I mean things that could improve my productivity, workflow etc.) that I would like to try but aren't willing to pay for upfront. I won't know if they work for me until I try them. I know it's not a lot of money, but it is if I only use it once and find out it's not for me.

It's more hassle to implement but a free with iAP is surely a better monetisation model for a 'utility' app like this?

<comment><USER7> I'm not sure how Apple does this, but with the Play Store, you have 15 minutes (I might be wrong on the time) to get a refund after purchase, so that you can make sure it works on your device, that it is what it says on the box, etc.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> I will gladly pay 2$ for this. Thank you so much!

<comment><AUTHOR> No, thank you!!</comment></comment>


Show HN: ABBA - Beautiful, open-source A/B test calculator - <AUTHOR> http://www.thumbtack.com/labs/abba/

<comment><USER2> Great explanations. For people, who prefer excel we have a calculator as an excel sheet: [http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com/split-testing-blog/ab- test...](http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com/split-testing-blog/ab-testing- significance-calculator-spreadsheet-in-excel/)

We also have a blog post that explains mathematics of A/B testing: [http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com/split-testing-blog/ab- test...](http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com/split-testing-blog/ab-testing- significance-calculator-spreadsheet-in-excel/)

</comment><comment><USER3> I would perhaps also have added a calculation of the power of the test. But I really love that they're actually explaining the details behind it, which a lot of other A/B-test calculators out there don't do.

</comment><comment><USER4> For people wanting the PHP code to do the calculations: <http://abtester.com/calculator/>

This is something like 25 lines of code.

</comment><comment><USER5> Mixpanel also has an A/B split testing calculator: <https://mixpanel.com/labs/split-test-calculator>

<comment><USER6> Theirs has a nice, simple presentation which makes it very easy to use, especially for casual users. But it includes much less information (no confidence intervals and p-values are only approximate), uses much simpler statistics (z-test with no multiple testing correction can result in highly overconfident results), and doesn't describe what underlying statistics it uses. Although not as immediately accessible, I think Abba has much more to offer to anyone who's serious about A/B testing.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Perhaps lighten up the "What is ABBA" section.. it's pretty technical and I can see it scaring people off.

</comment><comment><USER8> Upvoted for the name.</comment>


Duke Nukem Forever has gone gold - <AUTHOR> http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com/showthread.php?t=121799

<comment><USER2> Despite working largely in the games industry I don't generally get excited by new game releases - other than Portal 2 which I massively enjoyed, I haven't really played any single player games in the last 6+ years.

But DNF does look like it's going to be really good, and I'm actually looking forward to play through it. The 2k (publishers) guys were at Gadget Show Live (a 100,000+ consumer event in the UK that I'm involved with), and spent quite a bit of time talking about the game there, as well as trying out the demo. (They claim that a colleague of mine and I were the first people not related to the developement to play it in the UK, which I'm slightly proud of).

It's obvious the amount of passion that's gone into the game, and it's obvious how hard they've tried not to let down the fans who have been waiting for so long. And, most importantly, it's obvious that they weren't afraid of making a FUN fps title, not a game that does it's best to make you think you're in a real-life situation.

Really hope it's as commercially successful as it deserves to be, and as I think it will be.

edit: To give an idea of how it will live up to people's hopes, here is a picture of Paul (my colleague mentioned above) <http://lockerz.com/s/91561838> playing the game. He's 39 and doesn't have a huge amount of time for playing games now days. He was at E3 in 1999 (was it 98?) when they first demo'd DNF, and has been waiting since then - when I told him he could play it at Gadget Show Live, he was like a kid on Christmas morning. And he absolutely loved it, was blown away by how much fun it was. (Side note, if anyone reading this went to the event, you might recognise Paul as being the presenter from the main stage in the Game Zone hall =].)

<comment><USER3> Paul doesn't look very enthusiastic in that picture :)

<comment><USER2> Trust me, that's his "how the hell do I kill this fucking thing?" face, not his unenthusiastic face!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> To give a sense of scale to the development time, the list of things that have taken less time than Duke Nukem Forever: <http://duke.a-13.net/>

This includes the space race, from initial challenge to actually landing on the moon.

<comment><USER5> Last Edit: 5/06/09

So, it's even worse than that list implies.

Off the top of my head, two additional games in the main Final Fantasy series have been released, as well as The Sims 3 and The Sims Medieval, the Nintendo 3DS was released, it goes on and on.

<comment><USER6> Check the bottom of the page for the list of "Things that happened since the List of Things That Have Happened Since Duke Nukem Forever Was Announced was written".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> For anyone else that was about to go check: Partly cloudy today with a 10% chance of precipitation tonight, no frost expected. [http://www.wunderground.com/cgi- bin/findweather/getForecast?...](http://www.wunderground.com/cgi- bin/findweather/getForecast?query=Hell)

<comment><USER8> I wonder if the target date for this was originally Saturday ;-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> so, does it come with a free copy of Textmate 2, or do I have to buy that separate?

</comment><comment><USER10> Isn't this a bit like Chinese Democracy by Guns 'n' Roses? Meaning that all that time and money invested have raised the expectations to levels than can never be satisfied?

<comment><USER11> Or Star Wars.

<comment><USER12> Or the Obama presidency.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> "...they finally assembled the pieces to create an incredible, epic and _cohesive_ gameplay experience."

Most game manufacturers don't tout cohesive as a feature... it's supposed to be a given. I hope I'm wrong, but given what I know about the development of DNF, I can't help but suspect that the reason they are mentioning it so loudly is because it isn't.

<comment><USER14> Given how many companies have worked on the game and the engine changes and just the sheer amount of turnover in that 15 year time frame, I think they _need_ to point this out. When you start with one set of people making the game and end with another set (along with a constantly cycling number of folks in between), I would seriously worry about the continuity in the game. But this is Gearbox, so I think they can pull it off.

<comment><USER15> I think it would be funny if they would switch engines as the game progresses. You start out as a blocky blob and finish with smooth photorealistic 3D.

<comment><USER16> There's flash a game that does it, but you have to buy the progressive upgrades with in-game money: <http://armorgames.com/play/3955/upgrade- complete>

Except it doesn't end at anything near photorealistic.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> I would have much preferred a lackluster sequel 14 years ago than an amazing game today. I no longer own a Windows PC, play first person shooters, or use a mouse.

<comment><USER18> > I no longer own a Windows PC, play first person shooters, or use a mouse.

What point are you trying to make? FPS are still massively popular, and there's no doubting that many who were small children 14 years ago have taken your place, owning Windows PCs, playing FPS, and using mice.

<comment><USER17> My point was this is being released far too late for me to care. I was anxious about a sequel in the late 90's. But now it's been so long that I no longer use the technology or this type of entertainment anymore.

<comment><USER18> So you're making a comment to say that you no longer care for FPS...I don't quite get it. That's like saying the release of Starcraft 2 was a waste because some SC1/BW players got tired of RTS, or gaming in general.

<comment><USER17> Sigh. I didn't say the game was a waste of time, or that FPS games or dead, or anything like that.

If you're going to be pedantic, at least try to interpret an opinion literally.

<comment><USER19> I may not agree with it, but the heart of his criticism is (harshly put) that you're polluting HN with your opinion because it isn't valid past you, nor does it reveal anything deeper about the subject at hand.

He can correct me if I'm putting words into his mouth.

<comment><USER17> See, you're doing it too. You're putting words in people's mouth and arguing against a position that was never made.

<comment><USER18> However, what he said is spot-on. I am looking for some discernible "point" in the hope that the comment is not just the arbitrary expression of an individual's taste, which it now clearly is.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment> k-mcgrady I remember playing Duke Nukem on my N64 when I was only 8/9 years old. I'm not a big gamer but it was one of the most fun games I ever played. I can't wait to get this. I'll be installing Windows 7 on my Mac just to play it.

Hopefully it's been worth the wait!

</comment><comment><USER20> One of the longest running gags in software industry is finally coming to an end?

</comment><comment><USER21> Still vaporware until I can actually buy it.

<comment><USER22> Oh, you can buy it alright. So could you with the previous version.

</comment></comment><comment><USER23> I'm going to need a new vaporware joke now! This one has served me since the dot com bubble days.

Seriously, this looks great. I am afraid I am no longer the target audience but I'll probably try it for nostalgia's sake. I have the strangest feeling that - like rewatching Star Blazers now that I'm not ten - it's not going to hold up that well, but if anyone can do it right, it's Gearbox.

<comment><USER24> Half Life [episode] 3 is your new vaporware joke.

<comment><USER12> It's got a long way to go to catch up, though.

Duke Nukem Forever was in development before Half Life 1 came out. I'm going to miss not having it. It's like finding out that Samuel Beckett has written a sequel to Waiting for Godot. It just kinda spoils the whole thing.

 _ACT 1, Scene I_

 _(Enter Vladimir, Estragon, Godot)_

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> Wow, maybe that Camping guy was right, the world is ending!

</comment><comment><USER26> I believe this is one of the signs of the apocalypse.

</comment><comment><USER27> Haha. I remember joking about the name of this game at the Naughty Dog offices when it was like 3 years late -- I swear it was in the 90s! Perhaps during the development of Crash Bandicoot Warped. Never ever pick a title with the word "forever" in it.

</comment><comment> T-zex They should have announced this on 21st of May :)

<comment><USER28> Or April 1st.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> did they use any code from 3D realms in the end?

<comment><USER30> I believe—when Gearbox first announced they were working on DNF at PAX last year—that they were largely just finishing and polishing up what 3D Realms had worked on.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> And I just ran out of gum :(

</comment><comment><USER32> Does anyone know what's the total development cost for the game?

<comment><USER33> Yes

<comment><USER32> Care to share the figure?

<comment><USER34> No

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> is this once instance where they finally switch from "aiming for perfect" to "done is better than perfect"?

<comment><USER36> More like "aiming for perfect" went out of business. Someone else bought it at the liquidation sale and fixed it up for release. So no, no one learned their lesson and decided to ship.

</comment></comment><comment><USER37> Yeah, right!

</comment><comment><USER38> Bundled with TextMate 2?

<comment><USER39> Seeing as Wine has reached version 1.0 and DNF has gone gold, anything could happen. Next thing you know, GNU Hurd stable will be released.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> I remember posting on the 3D Realms forums in the 90s and thinking it was so cool that the developers posted there too, and I could converse with them!

</comment><comment><USER41> So, does this mean hell has frozen over?

</comment><comment><USER42> Too bad gearbox took over it, would have been better if 3D Realms could finish the game.

It's also disappointing they didn't accomplished a stunning graphic after more than 12 years of development.

Regardless of the graphic it's almost the only game of his kind and I still expecting a good gameplay with many jokes.

Hail to the king baby.</comment>


APL at Its Core - <AUTHOR> https://ac1235.github.io/apl.html <comment><USER2> APL is cool - but the non-standard non-ASCII keyboard is a non-starter for reaching mass-market. Q sitting on top of K is the gateway drug to people using more APL-like languages and vector programming. However, we need an open-source alternative to KDB+. If you want to reach mass-market you need to be free and open and you need to provide something more than just a cool language.

KDB+ adds a lot of important features for handling time-series, websockets, web programming and generally scaling up to a distributed system where you could connected different nodes to form a message bus or add your own micro- services framework on top. You can't do that yet with any of the open-source APL and APL-like frameworks I've seen.

<comment><USER3> It's sad how Kx systems decided to double down on making KDB so proprietary. Had they made some part of the ecosystem open source, we'd see mass adoption and they'd probably see more money from support contracts.

There really is nothing out there like KDB that comes close for realtime manipulation and storage of ultra fast time series data.

<comment><USER2> I agree - could've gone the MongoDB route...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4>
       cat 1.txt

       http://example.net/?p=
       https://www.example.com/?page=
       ...

For a given URL prefix in the file 1.txt, print URLs for pages 25-35. Desired URL prefix is on line 100 of the file.

       cat 1.sh

       #!/bin/sh
       l=$(exec head -$2|exec tail -1);
       n=$3;while true;do
       test $n -le $4||break;
       echo $l$n;
       n=$((n+1));
       done;

1.sh 1.txt 100 25 35

       cat 1.k

       g:{_getenv x};
       u:0:g "u";
       l:0$g "l";
       b:0$g "b";
       e:0$g "e";
       `0:{,/$u[l],x}'b _!e;

u=1.txt l=99 b=25 e=36 k 1

</comment><comment><USER5> For those of you who also enjoy the Reddit crowd, here's a link to r/programming: [https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ysgc2/apl_at_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ysgc2/apl_at_its_core/)

</comment><comment><USER6> To me this looks like 'write-once and forget' code similar to a complex regexp. Why is everyone raving about the incomprehensible syntax?

I admit that this is the first time I see APL code.

<comment><USER7> > _Why is everyone raving about the incomprehensible syntax? I admit that this > is the first time I see APL code._

You've answered your own question.

It's only "incomprehensible" if you're not familiar with it.

After you've studied it it is very powerful and very succinct.

The article even gives an example:

      Just consider the extract !'\:/:. The !
      operator means rotation in this context.
      If used as n!v it rotates the vector v by
      n. But we do not directly use the
      operator like that, we modify it using
      the adverb ', which generally denotes a f
      unctional map. Now we can do something
      like n!'m to rotate each row vector in
      the matrix m, that is each element of the
      vector of vectors m, by n, or more
      generally we can say something like v!'m
      to rotate each row m[i] in the matrix m
      by the corresponding element of v[i].

A good analogy I would give is the equally "cryptic" to the uninitiated, but equally fast and powerful, to those that mastered them, vi(m) text manipulation commands -- which also use a very similar concept of modifiers and targets and so on.

<comment><USER8> The following video is probably reasonably well known, and I wish that I had a more intelligent commentary than to say that it blows my mind, but it does I think bear out the point of expressivity rather well.

[https://youtu.be/a9xAKttWgP4](https://youtu.be/a9xAKttWgP4)

Conway's _Game of Life_ in some 50 characters of APL.</comment></comment></comment>


WakeMate Photo Op - <AUTHOR> http://blog.wakemate.com/2010/05/19/photo-op/

<comment><USER2> I am still excited to receive my WakeMate, but why did they not send me this update via email? Why was this in a blog post and not sent to the email I used to pre-order?

Furthermore, what is the point of saying "still a long way to go" - I am literally almost 6 months past the date I was told I'd receive it. Did WakeMate not have any software or hardware done at all when they posted the pre-order?

<comment><USER3> They probably didn't email it because people would then complain of spam. The industry standard is to grab an email address to make only a one-time notification.

All this is irrelevant anyway; Wakemate will get crap no matter if they remain silent, or write blog posts, or send email, or update twitter as long as a physical product is not out in the wild.

I'm actually in support of the Wakemates on this one; I wouldn't have sent out an email either.

<comment><USER2> I don't envy their position by any means, and I only hope them the best. However, there is nothing wrong with regularly updating the people that are making it possible to start your business. Due to a limited budget ($30k or so from YC?), the pre-order was necessary to get hardware ordered and shipped to the first customers; in essence it is an interest free loan to kickstart their business. As a result, I want to know when my loan is going to be 'repaid', hardly a standard situation.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Call my cynical but my impression of this is that when I pre-ordered they must have literally had _nothing_ done. I understanding some of the tricks you might pull to perform customer validation but their approach seems unambiguously disingenuous in hindsight...

<comment><USER5> correct,they had nothing at pre-order time. Minimal Viable Product for hardware.

<comment><USER6> _Minimal Viable Product for hardware_ == "concept"?

<comment><USER7> Minimal viable product for hardware = 'working prototype'.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> You know, I'm sure the Wakemate product is going to be stellar and really useful.

I can't help thinking they've made a mistake in their approach though - everything I have seen from them has promised more, even this which has actual "stuff" on show promises bigger and better.

They should have:

a) waited till they had the physical product reasonably ready for distribution before announcing. All the hype from the intial launch is lost now. And if they hit unseen snags there should have been open and running updates so people stayed with them.

b) the web stuff and the phone apps are great and useful - but that's stuff you can develop and iterate over time. What you need to do with a physical product (and I have bitter experience here!) is get the damned thing out the door and into the hands of your users. So long as they realise the web/app is a work in progress all will be fine.

<comment><USER9> You're totally right - they're doing the exact opposite of "underpromise and overdeliver".

</comment></comment><comment><USER10> If I were a Wakemate pre-order, I wouldn't be happy to see three mobile apps before anyone shipped me my device.

The Wakemate team seems dedicated and smart, but as an outside observer watching the it all unfold, their communications skills are sorely lacking. Hopefully a great product will overcome in the end.

edit: On second thought, they have got to be just crazy. How is it possibly the right idea to have three unfinished mobile apps than one that works?

<comment><USER11> The time consuming part is probably getting the HW manufactured. Why not code up the software for multiple platforms while waiting on that? I think covering both iPhone and Android is a pretty good move.

<comment><USER2> I am not a hardware guy, but the few pieces of hardware I've seen ordered took a week to get a run of 100 test units, they spent two weeks working some bugs out, then put in an order of 1000 which came a week after placing the order.

This was done out of a shop in the US, not sure what it is like doing production runs overseas, but I can't imagine it's much slower.

This of course ignores the time spent designing/redesigning units, however, ordering batches of something from a manufacturer doesn't take long.

<comment><USER12> I saw an FCC stamp – getting FCC approval would have taken at least a month. And I have no idea whether something like this would require FDA approval, but I'm sure they had to at least research that.

<comment><USER13> Sure looks like a pre-approved BT module to me, such as the ones SparkFun sells ([http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_i...](http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8497)). Buy it and solder it down: done.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Maybe they're sleeping _too_ soundly.

</comment><comment><USER15> I followed tlrobinson's advice and bought Sleep Cycle for the iPhone. It's 0.99 and works well. Still, I'm optimistic about WakeMate, especially the analytics.

<comment><USER16> Just bought it thanks to both of you!

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> This company is a good reminder to folks that "minimally" is only one of the words in the now-sacrosanct "minimally viable product." You still need the other two, or else you will surely piss people off.

A demo, a YouTube video, or a web form hooked up to Paypal is not a MVP. At least, not in my book.

Edit: Too harsh? Maybe, but knowing people who ordered this thing and are annoyed that it still hasn't shipped tells me there's a lesson to be learned here.

</comment><comment><USER18> It's good they're updating, I'd like to think my HN post helped with that. Now as other suggested, if they keep us all in the loop with (bi)weekly updates, then they're golden. Let's hope they do.

Edit: Just got an email from them stating they are planning on weekly updates. Awesome guys, keep it up! :)

</comment><comment><USER19> The biggest issue with this whole WakeMate fiasco was the original ship date announced. Given all of the recent communication and delays, it is clear that the original January ship date was a fantasy from the start. If they had pre- announced their product but gave a more realistic ship date, they wouldn't be dealing with all of the negative press they are now. While figuring out how to ship hardware is very difficult for a company doing this for the first time, it appears they were nowhere near a shippable product when they set their original release date.

</comment><comment><USER20> I'm still waiting for my unit... Not very happy tho.

</comment><comment><USER7> Great to see a sign of life from wakemate, now let's hope stay awake and keep updating, say a small progress report once every two weeks or so.

At that level the time invested is manageable and you keep your customers in the loop.

<comment><USER3> Amazing! It's funny how if Wakemate hadn't screwed up, the world wouldn't be justified in demanding periodic updates! I mean, do you really ask Posterous to give you bi-weekly updates? I just hope the Wakemates realize that (a) the bar is significantly higher because they're YC-backed (b) every day they spend not putting the product in a customer's hands, they're setting themselves up for more work (such as sending bi-weekly status updates) which may not even be common under normal circumstances, or risk pissing off more [potential] customers.

I really hope someone does a detailed post-mortem analysis on the Wakemates (AndrewWarner?); there's a _ton_ of stuff to learn about how _not_ to do PR/marketing in here for the rest of us to learn & implement. :)

<comment><USER7> If they had delivered when they first promised there would be no issue at all. But once you go across your self-imposed deadline you have to make sure that those that pre-ordered are kept in the loop on the hows-and-whys.

It's like BP estimating the outflow from that leak way too low. If their estimate had been 'on target' or 'high' there would have been no problem, by estimating too low they've set themselves up for all kinds of trouble.

The interesting thing is that I don't see any perceived cost in overestimating, but a significant cost to underestimating.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> My main takeaway is that when their website used to say "compatible with all phones", that was as much a piece of speculative fiction as was the ship date.

I hope the Wakemate can be used without a phone...

</comment><comment><USER22> Is that a bug? The Eris in the middle is showing 8:10-:8:30am as the answer to waking up by 2:39pm?

</comment><comment><USER23> Any plans for an API?

</comment><comment><USER24> Long overdue

</comment><comment><USER25> i'm confused why people are so mad. doesn't the pre-order only cost $1?

<comment><USER26> It was $5 - but it's not about the money.

It's about a company promising something and not following through. Top that off with a big helping of poor communication, and you start to get an idea of why some people are frustrated.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: Which companies have great software engineering practices? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Yikes at these answers so far.

Here's my list as a computer science geek always attempting to look top down at the industry:

\- Cloudflare

\- Datadog

\- GitLab

\- DistroKid

\- Spotify

\- TransferWise

\- Typeform

\- Okta (maybe)

This being my short list off the top of my head. Hopefully I can edit with some more later.

\---

Also, a note that I'm currently hiring:

I lead an international role for AB InBev called Z-Tech which is modernizing the last-mile supply chain for all of AB InBev's massive network of subsidiary suppliers.

That said, I'm attempting to model our engineering practices based on some learnings from the above list of companies.

Feel free to reach out at:

christian.battaglia at ab-inbev dot com

<comment><USER3> Christian, I took a quick look at the Careers page for ab-inbev, and the vast majority of listed positions in the U.S. are internships and blue-collar jobs.

I was impressed, however, to see that your corporate website cookie settings _default_ to maximum privacy!

<comment><USER2> You are correct, good DrScump. I pointed that out to the team immediately. I started Monday and this being a static site without user interaction we deemed it a non-business critical item and it's in the backlog for the next couple weeks .

For those unaware, we're talking about the lack of an SSL cert on our new company website.

Edit: Or did I completely misjudge that as sarcasm?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Google will definitely be on this list.

Great tooling. Great SW development culture. Strict requirements on code quality. Mandatory testing. Mentorship and continuous reviews for writing good code.

<comment><USER5> And a culture that encourages every single engineer to make yet another chat app.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> I'm not sure which angle this question is asked from, but I can think of two:

1 - you're looking for great software engineering practices to model based on other companies, which is good.

2 - you're looking for a company to work at, and you really value software engineering practices, which is also good.

I feel like these are two different answers though. Many companies that have great practices do them because they are large, and have resources to implement them, think FAANG. It is financially worth it to have great software engineering practices to reduce friction and increase quality. These can be really interesting and have great papers written about their sometimes open sourced technology. The Google SRE program comes to mind.

If you're looking for a company with great software engineering practices to work at, I think that's a lot trickier. It honestly depends on team and culture, and I've found it varies widely, even between different leads. Even at big companies where I've worked, some teams just have bad engineering practices, either due to bad team culture or practical problems like lack of time or resources. Also be careful because a lot of software engineering practices aren't about writing code, committing code, or writing papers about tools and frameworks - they're about personal interactions and problem solving together. Even great software engineering practices can be perverted in a toxic culture.

</comment><comment><USER7> Microsoft. I read their books. They have more principled approach towards SW. Their languages and libraries are well designed.

<comment><USER8> Seriously, creator of well-know shitty operating system with shady business practices?

<comment><USER9> Yes them, in general they have a serious approach to software engineering (though YMMV per team)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Goldman Sachs quants, Jane Street

<comment><USER11> OCaml shops, both of them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> I hear good things about Pivotal. They take pair programming seriously.

<comment><USER13> I worked at Pivotal for 4 years. I think it had a great engineering culture, with a very principled approach to XP. This may not be for everyone of course. I learnt a lot there, it was a collection of people all wanting to become better, rather than simply delivering software.

After the VMWare acquisition, we'll have to wait and see how much of the culture remains.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> nasa</comment>


Get rid of callbacks without the overhead of promises and generators - <AUTHOR> https://mixmax.com/blog/node-fibers-using-synchronize-js

<comment><USER2> The concurrency model seems to be the same as threads. Since JS doesn't have threads, thats great, but claiming that "let you write asynchronous code as if it were synchronous." is a little much. Try mutating shared state async while pretending your code is sync and see how far that gets you.</comment>


How we're spending $55,930.08 a year on SaaS products - <AUTHOR> http://blog.sawhorsemedia.com/post/104076088572/how-were-spending-55-930-08-a-year-on-saas <comment><USER2> It's significant this is a SaaS company using these services. Some of the services have a cost based on team size, while others have a cost based on user base (and usage volume).

Services whose cost is f(team size): CircleCI, Trello, Github

Services whose cost is f(user base): MixPanel, Moz, Shopify

I mention this distinction because the f(team size) services generally offer solid value to any team, being useful and less expensive than paying someone to build the same thing in-house. OTOH the f(user base) products are a lot harder for consumer apps to justify than business apps. They do occasionally offer enterprisey premium features like platinum support, but the main pricing scheme is based on X whatever's per month, and a SaaS company charging lawyers $100/user/month is a lot more likely to afford it than a casual gaming website with a million users and a some ads.

<comment><USER3> And this is precisely why many large enterprises build things in house rather than license commercial tools. It's a lot more palatable to buy 3-5 full time developers to build and support and internal helpdesk than license ServiceNow, etc, for tens of thousands of users.

<comment><USER4> There's also considerable risk-aversion at large enterprises. Getting themselves into a position of significant dependence on a SaaS provider can be unappealing for at least two reasons, even if the pricing works for them initially: 1. risk that the pricing gets raised significantly, or the business's employee/customer profile changes in a way that raises the price to them significantly; or 2. risk that the SaaS provider goes out of business, is acquired, pivots, or otherwise significantly changes the service.

Building something in-house probably doesn't usually result in a better product up front (and _definitely_ not for less up-front expenditure), but it can reduce some risks and be less constraining to future moves if you own the app.

<comment><USER5> It doesn't work that way in practice. I've been to more than one enterprise where an in-house developed application was no longer maintained, original developers were not available, and no one knew how the application even worked. There are very high risks in in-house developed applications, particularly if they are not vital for the enterprise (harder to have resources to maintain/enhance). Risk of SaaS provider going out of business or raising prices is no higher than traditional on-premise enterprise vendors (one can argue it's a lot lower). In short, there are risks in all approaches and they need to be managed. Good application architecture help manage those risks regardless of which route is chosen.

<comment><USER3> I disagree completely. Another benefit of traditional on-prem vendors is that it's a lot easier to get source code escrow written into the contract as a force majeur or bankruptcy contingency.

I was going to reply this to a different guy, but in my experience the risks of the in-house app going out of maintenance due to dev attrition or whatever are far lower than most people think. Stuff that's business critical is almost always staffed appropriately, and stuff that people perceive as business critical but actually isn't is usually the [large group of small apps] that aren't well supported. The big problem is the rinky dink Excel macros, VBA/COM+ add-ins, and random isolate single developer crap that nobody knows about except the end users.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Interesting. Cheaper than the salary for an employee and probably together are able to help you do more than a single person.

<comment><USER7> > Cheaper than the salary for an employee...

True, but I wonder how much of an employee's time it takes to manage dealing with all these suppliers, technology integration time with each of them, and changing how these services are used each time a supplier changes its product offering.

<comment><USER6> So you're saying we need a SaaS service for managing other SaaS services and integrating them and keeping up to date with changes! :p

actually....

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> It's worth pointing out that, according to their team page [0], Sawhorse Media has zero dedicated backend engineers (apart from maybe their CTO). So, in their case, the alternative would be to hire someone just to manage these things (sysadmin, engineer, or whatever). In this case, I can see why they would make the choice of outsourcing everything.

But if you already have an in-house engineering team who is reasonably competent at maintaining services, the tradeoff is probably different.

[0] [http://sawhorsemedia.com/team/](http://sawhorsemedia.com/team/)

<comment><USER5> Agreed. Even when you have an in-house team, there are always other things that are core to your business to do. Growing a team is hard and expensive beyond the cost of the additional engineer. These SaaS tools let startups stay smaller, and that's priceless.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> There's a lot of unnecessary costs listed. For example, they spend $165.00 on dropbox for the team, but also use Gmail services (meaning they have Google accounts which come with a free 10GB of storage).

The tier of MailChimp they use implies their list is in excess of 110,000 subscribers, and since I do a lot of email marketing for my company, I can guess their open rate is probably somewhere in the 10-20% range, so they are throwing money away on emails that go to spam boxes or never get opened/engaged.

They use a 3rd party team chat service instead of hosting their own local XMPP service (this is a non-critical service I would wager, and could afford some downtime if the server needed maintenance).

All in all, they are spending a lot on things that aren't really necessary. They could bring some of those things in-house and probably save a lot per year as well (low-critical things that would require minimal maintenance).

This is not even mentioning the _lack_ of flexibility they get locked into by using only 3rd party solutions. I've seen this at my company for the few external things we do depend on -- you end up building business practices _around_ the 3rd party service, which may or may not be optimal or how you would normally do things. Having that flexibility, and assurance that service X doesn't go away tomorrow really can improve work-flows and peace of mind.

Seems their business is based entirely around other 3rd parties ... something that would make my company very nervous to say the least.

<comment><USER10> Paying someone to micromanage the services to get cost savings would cost at least $60,000 a year and make the company lose focus. There's no way digging into the details of the Mailchimp spend structure, for instance, is worth the time.

<comment><USER9> > There's no way digging into the details of the Mailchimp spend structure, > for instance, is worth the time.

Actually that's one point where you are not correct. For a good email campaign, it's imperative that you manage your list. You need to be looking at stats from the previous campaigns and making changes for future campaigns. If you have a lot of low-engaged/no-engaged emails, you need to try to re-engage them and/or drop them from your list. If you send 1 email a week to an address for 5 years that never opens, you are literally throwing money away. MailChimp (which we use too) has a lot of very good tools to help prune your list and glean a lot of insights into your engagement rates.

> Paying someone to micromanage the services to get cost savings would cost at > least $60,000

Not necessarily. Download a copy of Openfire XMPP server, stick it on one of your spare windows/*nix boxes in the corner, and it will run un-maintained for years. Just cron/schedule the OS updates automatically and it takes no more effort/skill than logging into a website to manage user accounts.

And nobody says they need an expensive seasoned SysAdmin to manage these services. Hire a college student for $15-$18 per hour part time to come in and tidy things up.

There are other opportunities to be had with their list of services, such as taking advantage of the drastically lower cost BitBucket (if they must have their source code repo's external).

There's certainly a lot of waste listed here.

<comment><USER11> They aren't trying to reduce costs, they are trying to focus on their product and growing their company.

<comment><USER9> That's fine so long as the money flows nice, but if/when things get tougher, they will have to scramble to find a solution.

There's 2 sides to this business -- the technical/development side, and the business side. The business side should very much care about not wasting money unnecessarily, even during the good times.

<comment><comment>~

But it's not just about saving money -- the company has almost zero flexibility when using all 3rd party solutions. If a vendor pushes an update tomorrow and it radically changes the product and causes a large disruption (it happens), or a vendor goes under tomorrow, or [insert dooms-day scenario here], the company will be left scrambling.

Using 3rd party services also forces the company to build business routines/practices around their current inflexible environment -- so if they do have to switch vendors at some point, they will have to likely reinvent business routines/practices too. For some companies/services, that is not a problem -- for others, well, some companies have gone under during major core software changes (imagine your warehouse management system having to change suddenly and unexpectedly).

Just like software engineers try to minimize external dependencies unless the dependency is absolutely necessary -- businesses should too.

<comment><USER12> "The business side should very much care about not wasting money unnecessarily, even during the good times."

How many businesses have you run?

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> I'm more certain every day that there is a place in the market for a company offering "subscription management" service. Manage all SaaS for a business (or personal as well!), keeping costs low and utilization high. Provide one central billing endpoint.

I would definitely use a service like that, both personally and professionally. The number of subscriptions I have is growing, and it's frustrating to keep up with all of them. I would love to have them all in one accessible place.

<comment><USER14> Actually, this is a pretty good idea! It's going on my idea list.

<comment><USER15> Started working on one of those on a conceptual level. The main problem is that some of those services provide no management API nor want to resell, which would be the best source of revenue in my opinion. Without that, you have a glorified "I'm using this/that" list.

<comment><USER13> Yeah, another problem stemming from this is that in many cases the user would need to grant you full account access. Still, Mint is a good example of a product that was able to gain enough trust from users that it had full access to all bank accounts, so maybe such a requirement is not an inhibiting issue. Any good product would need to be backed by a solid team with trustworthy backgrounds, though. This likely wouldn't work as a side project.

<comment><USER15> If the service just provided "add a user, remove a user (hired, fired) and adjust billing appropriately", it would already be worth a lot and wouldn't need full account access.

Its mind-boggling how many accounts I still have for companies I don't work for anymore.

<comment><USER13> Yeah, that would work, but the issue is that if you want to support "every" SaaS company, you need to solve the problem of integrating an SaaS product that does not offer granular permissions. e.g. An "admin" account that could grant/revoke access to users might necessarily also have access to sensitive company data.

In fact, it's the sensitive data that is the issue that will generate the most resistance from potential customers. Companies probably care way less about trusting you with their credit cards than they do with trusting you with sensitive vertical-specific data. THEN AGAIN, people are putting their entire company communication into Slack so who really knows...

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> I was thinking man - they don't even have 1 really expensive SaaS product on the list… $60k for all those solutions seems very very cheap. Just setting up an open-source alternative to something that costs <$500/yr probably ends up costing you more - without upgrades and management.

<comment><USER15> I saw the setup of a ticket system (with some tayloring, server and user setup, etc.) quoted at 20k EUR, which I found a reasonable price.

That's 20k upfront investment _before anyone has used it_. And this is where the real value of SaaS lies.

If I throw away 1000 EUR in seat licensing just for finding out a system seemed nice but doesn't work in the long run, I just saved 19000 EUR.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> I wonder how many of those service are at a "just in case" level? I see a number of products I have/do use, but the team only needed a smaller version of. (for instance, $97 for Github when a $25 org plan would work)

<comment><AUTHOR> Since we run two products (both Muck Rack and the Shorty Awards), we end up paying twice for some services like Github.

<comment><USER18> I don't understand _why_ you would host your source code externally?

You can buy Atlassian Stash, once, for $1800/25 users, and use it forever: [https://www.atlassian.com/software/stash/pricing](https://www.atlassian.com/software/stash/pricing)

<comment><USER17> Github is really attractive with all the services that integrate into it. A service at $100/mo isn't much when you consider any labor time it saves ($50-$150/hour generally)

<comment><USER18> ... and Stash is really attractive with all the local plugins that integrate with it, and allow you to do things that are _really hard_ when you're stuck with web hooks.

Local installations don't cost hours-a-month to run.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> While interesting - there's often a free or opensource alternative for these "generic" SaaS services. You'd probably be spending just as much on this list if you used no SaaS products and hired an engineer to either maintain the open source versions or add similar custom functionality to your product/CMS/dashboard/somewhere. If you hired the engineer, you'd probably get the exact functionality you needed too.

<comment><AUTHOR> We have engineers and we already spend a lot more on them than we do on SaaS. But we want them focused on building Muck Rack into an awesome PR tool for our customers, not internal tools unless they're specific to our product.

Even so I don't think there's any engineer we could hire for $60k salary (or any salary for that matter) who could effectively maintain all of the functionality we get from these products, but if you know of one please send them our way! [http://sawhorsemedia.com/jobs/](http://sawhorsemedia.com/jobs/)

<comment><USER18> And yet, you're paying those engineers (and every other employee) to waste their time using N different non-integrated services, all of which change at random whenever a new release is pushed out, disrupting your processes.

I've been involved in this side of a startup 3 different times over a couple decades: IT systems are not a full time job for a startup. They're not even a part time job. They're an every-once-in-a-while type job. At <30 people, all you need is one engineer that can also run a single small internal server. Just one.

<comment><USER20> > IT systems are not a full time job for a startup. They're not even a part > time job. They're an every-once-in-a-while type job. All you need is one > engineer that can also run a single small internal server. Just one.

Soon enough he or she will have to maintain your mail server, CRM, file server, bug tracker, CI service, backup services etc. and woops, your developer is now a sysadmin.

<comment><USER18> From experience: That level of maintenance only grows to sysadmin proportions at a scale where you can hire a sysadmin.

These systems largely run themselves, indefinitely.

<comment><USER9> Not to mention there's a lot of SysAdmins out there that will do the job very well for a lot less than $60K a year. You don't need to hire a SysAdmin who used to work on Google sized infrastructure to run your internal startup's IT.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> this is really interesting - i work at an internal incubator at Intel ( new business initiatives ) ...and we don't use nearly this many services in our new ventures - so an interesting contrast for sure.

i interesting to see what breaks the 99 barrier

</comment><comment> digital-rubber That's a lot of money spend for not so much in return, imho. Not to even mention the time spend on integration everything with each other. Which also equals are certain money amount.

I'm quite sure that for a lot, if not majority of the packages you pay for, there is a perfect open source, free to use alternatives. Which might require just as much time to integrate as it's paid alternative, but you will have full control, self hosted.

Also consider the impact of the information you are sharing with all these third parties. Might be a bigger concern then currently estimated.

Example, the dead man's snitch, it kind of leaks every time a cronjob runs/fails.

<comment><USER22> $60k/year is 1/3 to 1/2 a developer/sysadmin. If maintaining in-house systems based on open source equivalents of all of those packages would take more than 1/2 a headcount, then they are making the right choice.

And even if they could do it all in-house, that's a developer who's not working on the stuff that makes their product distinctive. Running your own email sending / file sharing / customer support tracking / project management / sales lead management software has a massive opportunity cost.

<comment> digital-rubber yes that's the tradeoff/investment, where people differ of opinion and I (very technical person, not management/paper pusher), find it more important to have in-house capabilities (even at higher cost) then to simply rely on a third party vendor.

Plus that you are not making any third party aware of anything, as you don't need them. And might save you a lot of hassle in the middle of the night and you need vendor support, which generally at such hours could generate even more cost.

In my humble opinion, technical pov, the more you do in-house, and the less you rely on third parties, the more freedom the company has.

Also any in-house developed product, could be sold, generating income. Also, i believe, that developing your own, gives you a certain knowledge which you don't get if you are simply adopting third party software.

It's of course way easier/more clear to calculate ROI when you spending specific amounts instead of investing in knowledge, control and self power. The returns on that can very a lot.

But, generally speaking, things are only 'expensive' if you think they are not worth it.

<comment><USER9> I don't know why so many people keep tossing the $60K-$120K figure around for a SysAdmin. Your startup is not on the level of a Facebook/Google and does not need a SysAdmin who's background is managing systems at that scale. You really just need a college student who can run a few small servers and knows how to make backups for when things hit the fan. We're talking $15-$20 an hour, they get a lot of great work experience, and you get manged in-house IT.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Sorry for offtopic, but that animation on Muck Rack startpage is one of the slowest I've ever seen. It really freezes.</comment>


Convox (YC S15) Wants to Make AWS as Easy as Heroku - <AUTHOR> http://venturebeat.com/2015/08/12/y-combinator-backed-convox-wants-to-make-aws-as-easy-as-heroku/ <comment><USER2> At Opendoor, we've been running an important piece of our data science infrastructure on Convox. We love the flexibility to choose our own hardware, scaling vertically as well as horizontally.

We wrote a post on this last week: [https://labs.opendoor.com/moving- opendoors-data-science-stac...](https://labs.opendoor.com/moving-opendoors- data-science-stack-from-heroku-to-convox/)

</comment><comment><USER3> Convox co-founder here. Happy to answer your questions about Convox, AWS, Heroku, YC, open-source business models, and more...

<comment><USER4> Congrats on the launch!</comment></comment>


Jeff Vogel of Spiderweb Software (Indie RPGs) AMA on Reddit - <AUTHOR> https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/d3c10i/im_jeff_vogel_founder_of_spiderweb_software_since/ <comment><AUTHOR> Jeff Vogel's blog post "Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap"[1] and its follow-up "I am the Cheapest Bastard in Indie Games"[2], about the design decisions and tradeoffs in his games (particularly around the art and its cost) got a lot of traction here.

[1] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20765521)

[2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804998](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20804998)</comment>


Maciej Ceglowski – Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kErHiET5YPw&feature=youtu.be&list=PLaLoXSqdjlcJwDDQn1B7s5ONz7N3diz3h <comment><USER2> Idlewords, are you going to add the slideshow to your page as you've done in the past? I always enjoy the slideshows but it's going to be a little while before I have time to watch a 45-minute video, even one poking fun at the AI- riskers (a pasttime dear to my heart)</comment>


Scientists discover that atheists might not exist, and that's not a joke - <AUTHOR> http://www.science20.com/writer_on_the_edge/blog/scientists_discover_that_atheists_might_not_exist_and_thats_not_a_joke-139982#.VEWOAySUFSs.facebook

<comment><AUTHOR> This article brings up some good points regarding strict atheism, things that affect me personally.

I don't really believe in any God, to the extent that if someone were to ask me on the street if I believed then I'd flatly say "no", and explain a few reasons _why_ I don't believe.

However, this article brings up some good points -- like the fact is that I find myself asking for help from God when I'm going through difficult times, wondering why God did this to me, etc... Sometime I can get behind God in a "power greater than myself" sense of the term, even if I don't exactly know what that is. Not all the time, but sometimes I also find myself wanting that feeling of connectedness that religion seems to bring. If I had to really describe my feelings on God, i'd say I was mostly an atheist, especially about any objective aspect of God, but, on a personal level, atheist-ish with a lot of confusion and uncertainly.

<comment><USER2> The article points out that in fact you are talking with your inner self. You have been introduced to the concept of God and when turn to your inner self, you may instinctively give it a name.

As article points out, it can be also name of your spouse, but if you train your self, then perhaps it could be also be your name.

Also please mind that this connectedness may be created on other grounds than religion. For example between people speaking the same language or having other cultural similarities. For example during the concert of your favourite band.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> First what we should notice is that this behaviour does not prove existence of God.

Also if we know existence of such behaviour, we can more easily protect us against groups that try to exploit this behaviour to get control over us.

<comment><AUTHOR> I agree that, in any objective sense, God doesn't exist outside of the human mind.

But there is the rub -- the way I experience my own existence is largely through my own mind. Sure, sometimes I'm aware of senses like physically feeling a texture, or smelling or tasting food. But, say, approximately 90% of the time I experience the world through my thoughts and emotions and whatever else would fit into the rough category of "mind". So it's easy to get confused.

Like I said, I don't really believe in God, but I also don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as it were. Spirituality and religion are still very powerful forces in people's lives, and are interesting subjects of study. For example, I have found Buddhism and mindfulness meditation to be especially helpful in my life. But the benefits have come from more than an academic study -- it has required actually meditating and struggling with ideas and changing.

I think that it's important to study them in an academic sense, and also really dive in and live the experience. Ideally there is a sensible balance between the two extremes.

I guess that this post was more of a way for me to share that I'm not a strict atheist, like it seems a lot of people are here on HN. I think there is a lot of valuable discussion and understanding still to be gleaned from the topic.

If I had to sum it up in one sentence I'd say: "God doesn't exist, and God doesn't exist in a really interesting way"</comment></comment>


Corporate jet tracking reveals major deals in 2018 - ajay-d https://blog.quandl.com/corporate-jet-tracking-reveals-major-deals-in-2018 <comment><AUTHOR> That article says that executives private jets because they get "privacy" but in reality, this leaves them open to monitoring.</comment>


Show HN: Search and explore reputable online brokers on a map - <AUTHOR> Hello HN! I have created this tool to explore and search brokers interactively on a map with different filters to select from. Looking for feedback. Built using Laravel+Vue.js+Leaflet<p>https://go2.broker <comment><USER2> The OpenStreetMap basemap requires attribution. The example map on [https://carto.com/location-data- services/basemaps/](https://carto.com/location-data-services/basemaps/) shows "Leaflet | © OpenStreetMap contributors, © CARTO"

Great to see you're upfront about affiliate links and commissions.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your comment. Indeed the attribution part should be fixed.</comment></comment>


Spotify preps to go public with 60M subscribers, outpacing Apple - <AUTHOR> https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/31/spotify-vs-apple-music/ <comment><USER2> I really hope Spotify can succeed - it is by far my favorite streaming service thanks to the social playlist discovery aspects of the odd little genres of music I like.</comment>


Throwing and catching an inverted pendulum with quadrocopters - <AUTHOR> http://robohub.org/video-throwing-and-catching-an-inverted-pendulum-with-quadrocopters/ <comment><USER2> I keep trying to think of practical implications for this technology, but every time I do, I just end up daydreaming about robot circuses.

<comment><USER3> Something that popped into my head is a drone tossing a grenade through a window. The military would go nuts over this.

<comment><USER4> What happens when somebody else develops a drone to catch & return grenades thrown in through your window?

<comment><USER4> (I'm guessing the answer cumulates in anti-drone drones, e.g. air superiority drones. Drone dogfights!)

<comment><USER5> Or simply stronger windows.

<comment><USER6> Or a person can use a grenade launcher

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I couldn't figure out _how_ the quadrocopters were coordinated. Turns out it's a high-speed motion capture. More here: <http://www.flyingmachinearena.org/>

<comment><USER8> I've ranted on this topic before [1]. I still think it's a bit dishonest... academics shouldn't promote their work to general audiences without properly denoting caveats. In this case... they're using a ~$50k vicon motion capture system that returns millimeter-precision pose estimates at ~1kHz.

[1] [http://www.hizook.com/blog/2012/07/02/being-honest-robot- vid...](http://www.hizook.com/blog/2012/07/02/being-honest-robot-videos- motion-capture-speedup-rates-and-teleoperation)

Without the vicon and (probably) a central control PC, this feat would be SUPER difficult -- by ~1-2 orders of magnitude. The real problem is: when someone does solve _that_ herculean problem, the general public won't care. They'll just say, "eh, we've seen that before."

<comment><USER9> Who cares what the public thinks? The funding and eventual commercialization will come from people who do understand what is going on here.

I'm no expert, but I would imagine that research using remote viewing and centralized processing is just a first step that could make it easier to validate particular solutions, which can then be "baked into" self-contained platforms.

<comment><USER8> It's the same as industry... good PR goes a long way toward acquiring funding. Would you be upset if (say) Apple, Google, or Microsoft's PR machine was intentionally deceiving folks? Academics are even more sensitive to this -- it's why we're always railing against "shitty science reporting."

Also, I suggest reading the article. I _am an expert_... I greatly admire this group's research(!!), which is why I don't mind giving 'em some tough love. But I also want the group that "cracks the egg" for self-localization and decentralized control to get their deserved limelight. This video makes that less likely.... as evidenced by the fact that so few people in this thread (probably) know what a Vicon is, how it works, or that it's being used.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> That is insanely cool. Quit your job and play with quadrocopters cool.

I'm surprised we've not seen larger versions of this platform for civilian use.

<comment><USER11> They have been in civilian (private/commercial) use for a few years (since 2008 or so). Mostly for taking pictures from above -- they are relatively well-suited for that. (And for fun flying of course)

For transporting big things: it's more efficient to have larger rotors than to have multiple rotors.

For transporting really big things: see above, and helicopters have been around for a long long time; "we" (not me) have decades of experience with helicopters; you probably _really_ want something that is safe and reliable. You can't just scale up your model.

As for quadrocopter piloting: right now, all pilots crash. Repeatedly. Luckily, repairs are cheap (unless you happen to carry an expensive camera). For a full-size aircraft, crashing is probably not an option, so add lots of dev/testing time for safety features and pilot training.

BTW (somewhat unrelated): One huge problem with (smaller) quadrocopters is the many people that start new copter projects and get nowhere instead of contributing to one of the existing major projects or reusing its soft/hardware. Some of these projects are already way beyond what a single person or even a small team can achieve in a few years work.

<comment> eric-hu Can you explain the physics behind why it's more efficient to have larger rotors than multiple rotors?

<comment><USER12> Two reasons. First, surface area. For an equivalent surface area, one rotor results in a much smaller craft than 4 rotors.

Second, precision machining. It is much easier to balance 1 set of rotors weighing hundreds of pounds than it would be to balance 4 of them. I'm guessing your typical quadcopter is too small right now for this to be a real concern.

<comment><USER11> Balancing props is a very real concern, but for another reason than efficiency: unbalanced props cause more vibration and lead to reduced image/video quality due to the rolling shutter effect (image looks wobbly). That being said, many people don't bother with propeller balancing.

Size of the aircraft is a very important point, but there are other reasons besides the two you mentioned. Generally, larger _motors_ are more efficient than smaller ones. Larger, slower, props are more efficient than smaller, faster, ones, because Thrust ~ Rotor Speed^2 but Power ~ Rotor Speed ^ 3. Why? I don't recall, sorry. I'm more interested in the software. (If you do figure it out though, let me know.)

<comment><USER13> Because KE is proportional to v^2, and then you get another factor of v since the volume (and thus mass) of air through the rotors per unit time is proportional to how fast the air is moving.

At least that's my guess. And if I'm right, it's also why, to a first approximation, the power generated by a windmill is proportional to the cube of the wind speed.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> So, just get two larger quadrocopters and you could walk across a gorge. Each one would just catch each of your steps.

<comment><USER15> I feel like it'd be insanely easier to, you know, ride one quadrocopter. Across the gorge.

<comment><USER14> But, but.... um...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> TED talk that preceded this, featuring 3 quadcopters with a net and ball: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4IJXAVXgIo>

</comment><comment><USER17> Could anyone put together a rough curriculum for the control theory needed to understand something like this? It's absolutely fantastic.

<comment><USER18> Read any "control theory"[1] text, frequently used in undergraduate engineering courses. I hesitate to recommend the text from my undergraduate years, as it wasn't very good, and is probably dated by now. The inverted pendulum [2] is a canonical test in control engineering, frequently used to test feedback control algorithms. Consequently, it should be treated in most texts.

A separate problem is the modelling and control of the quadcopter. I say separate, since the maths behind throwing an inverted pendulum should be similar, whether it is being thrown by quadcopters or industrial robots. The real (and more complex) story here is the quadcopter control algorithms. Using an inverted pendulum is a sexy way to show off the quadcopted control algorithms, compared to a dry graph of an error function.

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory>

[2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_pendulum>

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> I feel like a link has popped up on HN, but I can't find it.

Where can I buy a small quadrocopter which I can program, and build my own system with?

<comment><USER20> I think you mean this one, right?

[http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/preorder-crazyflie-nano- qua...](http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/preorder-crazyflie-nano-quadcopter- kit-10dof-with-crazyradio-bccfk02a-p-1365.html?cPath=170_172)

<comment><USER19> Yes! Thank you. How did you search for that by the way?

<comment><USER18> Translating your original question into a google search returns a relevant result at position #2:

buy small quadcopter site:news.ycombinator.com

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Looking forward to when Amazon's warehouses are automated with quadrocopters.

<comment><USER22> Kiva Systems already makes a warehouse robot. I didn't know if Amazon used them or not, so I did some quick Googling and it turns out Amazon bought the company! [http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/amazon-com-buys- kiva-...](http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/amazon-com-buys-kiva-systems- for-775-million/)

<comment><USER23> and it was the same guy Raff D'Andrea who started that company

<comment><USER22> Hah, good catch! Small world =)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Since this uses an explicit model of the world, Rodney-Brooks-style robotics is now officially dead.

<comment><USER25> I was puzzled by your comment. Is this Brooks paper[1] the thinking that you're referring to?

[1] <http://people.csail.mit.edu/brooks/papers/representation.pdf>

<comment><USER24> Among others, but sure.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER26> Holy crap, that's amazing. I'm excited when I can get MySQL started on my development machine.

Those are some smart dudes ( and / or ladies).

<comment><USER27> >dudes and ladies

You mean men and women. Although I didn't see any women in the video. (Better include them just in case, so my friends don't think I'm a sexist pig!)

</comment></comment><comment><USER28> All fun and games until they fly in your window at night and kill you in your sleep.

</comment><comment><USER29> Imagine what kind of quadrocopters DARPA and similar agencies have these days.

</comment><comment><USER30> "The Diamond Age: Or, a Young Lady's Illustrated Primer", Neal Stephenson

just saying ;) ...

<comment><USER31> Why are you just saying that. Presumably that's a book suggestion, why is it pertinent?

<comment><USER32> "...then Bud made himself scarce, because the monitors - almond-sized aerostats with eyes, ears, and radios - had probably picked up the sound of the explosion and begun converging on the attack. He saw one hiss by him as he rounded the corner, trailing a short whip antenna that caught the light like a hairline crack in the atmosphere.

Aerostat meant anything that hung in the air. This was an easy trick to pull off nowadays. Nanotech materials were stronger. Computers were infinitesimal. Power supplies were much more potent...a device built with several thrusters pointed along different axes could remain in one position or indeed navigate through space." - The Diamond Age, by Neal Stephenson (1995)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER33> Mathematics in motion is a beautiful thing.

</comment><comment><USER34> how did they get arnold for the commentary?

</comment><comment> mauricio-OH 0.65s of pure robotics awesomness...

</comment><comment><USER35> Batteries not included.

</comment><comment><USER36> Wow.

</comment><comment><USER37> Congratulations - machines are one step closer to destroying the human race.

<comment><USER38> And only 999,999 more steps to go.</comment></comment>


The World's First Simulated Smartphone – A Security Blanket - <AUTHOR> http://www.thenophone.com/

<comment><AUTHOR> A security blanket for those addicted to their mobiles and trying to curb that constant neck-tilting and screen-tapping.</comment>


Introducing SwaggerSocket: A REST over WebSocket Protocol - <AUTHOR> http://blog.wordnik.com/introducing-swaggersocket-a-rest-over-websocket-protocol

<comment><USER2> Despite their vague handwaving, I do not see what this offers over HTTP pipelining. Why layer REST on a websocket on what is an HTTP-1.1 capable server when we can just layer REST on a HTTP-1.1 server?

To the extent that you can't send multiple requests without getting answers, that's your fault for using synchronous requests, not for using not-a- websocket.

WebSockets aren't performance magic. They're slightly glorified TCP sockets. If you've already got a TCP protocol (like, say, HTTP-1.1), it may be _convenient_ to put a WebSocket interface around it, but there's no other advantage. And this is a particularly weak case since if we support websockets in the first place we almost certainly have full HTTP1.1 pipelining support.

<comment><USER3> >To the extent that you can't send multiple requests without getting answers, that's your fault for using synchronous requests, not for using not-a- websocket.

fewer open connections while awaiting results, avoiding browser limitations

</comment></comment><comment> T-R Am I mistaken in my understanding that WebSockets is a stateful protocol? If your problem maps well to resource oriented architecture, when would the benefits of switching to this outweigh the fact that you'd be giving up response caching and scaling on a per-connection basis?

<comment><USER2> WebSockets are sockets with a very small bit of goop layered over them. In terms of the state you are talking about, they basically have the same amount of state as a TCP socket, which itself is mostly "connected" or "not connected". So the question of the "statefulness" of websockets, in the sense you mean, is ill defined, because statefulness is or is not added by higher layers, just as with TCP sockets.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> This feels a little redundant now that we have SPDY getting implemented in more and more places, particularly as the browsers that do best support WebSockets also support SPDY.

<comment><USER5> But what about WebSockets in non-browser contexts. I have to wonder if Square does this with its SocketRocket [http://corner.squareup.com/2012/02/socketrocket- websockets.h...](http://corner.squareup.com/2012/02/socketrocket- websockets.html)

Think of desktop apps that keep a connection to the server and are awaiting messages from it. I think it might get interesting, maybe not the best application of WebSockets, but interesting. Your Email client wouldn't have to poll every X seconds to see if new mail has arrived.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> While I think there's going to be a place for APIs to use async bidirectional communication (e.g. pretty much anything people use webhooks for) I don't think it makes sense to shoehorn in 'REST' (which in the quick start, is more RPC than REST). REST makes sense for HTTP, and I think something else (I don't know what) will make more sense for websockets. Maybe this is a good bridge to something better though.

<comment><USER7> As a subprotocol, it leverages the readability of REST into something much more efficient. Maybe pseudo-REST is a better term

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Be very very careful when looking at that graph people! See, latency is the deciding factor as proven here: <http://www.peterbe.com/plog/are-websockets- faster-than-ajax>

<comment><USER7> Yes, the graph in the blog is just a sample. There will be a detailed post about performance coming, including access from browsers and non-browsers across fast and latent connections. The chattiness of REST across slow connections is one of the biggest advantages to the socket protocol. How the client handles the _true_ async behavior of the sockets (not just via callback in the client!) makes a massive difference in performance.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Great demo, and I'm glad we are starting to explore web apis outside of http, but let's not forget that Websockets generally fail over mobile networks due to the use of invisible proxying by carriers, etc.</comment>


This guy really hates RoR - <AUTHOR> http://kakubei.blogspot.com/2012/05/why-i-hate-rails.html

<comment><USER2> It seems like that recently everbody need to post their daily amount of ruby|rails hate. Just saying.</comment>