Mesh Spreadsheet - <AUTHOR> http://mesh-spreadsheet.com/ <comment><USER2> Hi! Didn't expect this.

Mesh is still very much an alpha. Since the last public commit I have been experimenting with:

\- different text representations of the sheet (to make diffs as readable as possible)

\- ways to compress more functionality into the 'boilerplate' included with each sheet.

On the to-do list are:

\- persistence (including fixing "save sheet as URL" and local load/save)

\- selecting input cells with a keyboard while editing a formula

\- a way to include 'standard' spreadsheet formulas such as 'SUM' on-demand in the sheet file

\- case-insensitive cell references

\- much more polish...

JavaScript's lack of a built-in parser is a real bummer, and it means that while Mesh's backend logic can be written _as_ a spreadsheet, _in_ Mesh [1], the file has to include a third-party JS parser, which significantly slows down the editing process. I'd also like a proper SQL and first-class table support, but we work with what is supported by Internet Explorer 11.

I remain confident that we can substantially improve the status quo of spreadsheets and, by extension, programming.

[1] [https://twitter.com/MeshSpreadsheet/status/10195553103635046...](https://twitter.com/MeshSpreadsheet/status/1019555310363504640?s=20)

<comment><AUTHOR> The only two projects I know regarding "visual programming" that I think "are on the money" are Mesh Spreadsheet and Hyperfiddle. Luna-lang, even if in theory is great, didn't click with me. Observablehq is also interesting but I don't have a use case for it.

Keep the good work!

edit - some remarks to "get there": it must be/feel fast like native Excel, Sublime Text or at least VS code. In another phase, to be a real "programming editor" it would be great if you could use any programming language you want, not just JS. Clojurescript or Elm/Purescript could be a good start.

edit2 _> ways to compress more functionality into the 'boilerplate' included with each sheet._ I think the boilerplate should be somehow hidden from the end user.

<comment><USER3> > _some remarks to "get there": it must be/feel fast like native Excel, > Sublime Text or at least VS code._

As someone who is working on an Excel compiler, I can tell you it's challenging to make it very fast.

<comment><USER4> Is your compiler running on an interpreted language? I think to make this sort of product fast requires JIT compiling the users expressions, and doing some sort of whole program analysis to pull out the dependencies between cells.

<comment><USER3> I do whole program analysis, and the host is not interpreted. The costs are mostly about the data structures used to store the intermediate values. Automatically selecting whether to make some values contiguous or not is difficult, and the types are a bit complex (basically option types).

The sheets I'm working with have around a million expressions, and there are large sparse regions, so the data structures have to be a bit compact.

<comment><USER5> I also think it would be valuable to autoconvert long lines (rows or columns) of similar formulas into a mapping on an array. That would require some level of shape analysis on the excel file.

<comment><USER3> That is in fact the first step, we have around 800k instances, but only around 1500 unique combinations of dependency shape and expression, which makes a big difference.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Reminds me Tiddlywiki ([https://tiddlywiki.com/);](https://tiddlywiki.com/\);) but with spreadsheets instead of wikis...

... as a second thought spreadsheets are the wikis of people in finance, management...

</comment><comment><USER7> Pretty cool, some basic documentation would be nice (the readme does not tell everything). I didn't find how to reproduce some of the behavior of the loan example in the GIF, like how to format cells (turns out formatting is just writing a function that transforms a value and assigning it to the cell's 'f' field. Are there other special fields ?). I can't seem to make sub-table creation work, after creating a table with ctrl-alt-t, I seem to be stuck in table edition mode, I can't click on another cell or press enter or tab to deselect a cell.

I think it's a pretty promising project. Spreadsheets are very useful tools but usually crippled by single-line, crappy, not syntax-checking, not highlighting function editors.

<comment><USER2> Thanks for trying it out!

Yes - there are, or will be, other special fields, such as 'transpose' (so table headers would go in the first column instead of the first row). I was still figuring out which flags should be included, which is why it was under- documented.

Never expected sub-tables as a use case. Displaying nested cells would require a substantial re-write, but having _logically_ nested tables may work... you'd just need to call the table making boilerplate function manually.

</comment></comment><comment><USER2> If you'd like to see more of Mesh in action, here's a long form video of an early version showing how to write a primitive RSS reader in a Mesh spreadsheet and use it as the backend to a website. Back then typing into a blank cell created a name; it now creates a value and uses the cell position as the default name. Cell references also had to be preceded with $; we now just add cell names as properties of the global object so you don't need a prefix.

[https://youtu.be/4e1vNqMs0QI](https://youtu.be/4e1vNqMs0QI)

</comment><comment><USER8> This immediately reminded me of org-mode spreadsheets[0]. I wonder if they were a source of inspiration for this project.

[0] [https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet- intro...](https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet-intro.html)

</comment><comment><USER9> Great job.

On the "Why may I want to use Mesh instead of..." you may consider describing why I would want to use mesh instead of jupyter notebooks.

</comment><comment><USER10> Nice project. I always wanted a Python based spreadhshet. One where all the formulas are written in python, with access to all the standard library and more. This project is in javascript, but maybe someone could do it in python one day.

<comment><USER11> There are a couple of a Python based spreadsheets, one called pyspread and another Grid Studio.

[https://manns.github.io/pyspread/index.html](https://manns.github.io/pyspread/index.html)

[https://hackernoon.com/introducing-grid-studio-a- spreadsheet...](https://hackernoon.com/introducing-grid-studio-a-spreadsheet- app-with-python-to-make-data-science-easier-tdup38f7)

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Very cool!

Tangent: I'm reminded of [Mobx creator] Michael Weststrate's post^1 citing familiar spreadsheet formulas and input cells as a way to explain concepts of derivations and observables in mobx (his excellent state mgmt lib, which imho improves on redux), making React actually "reactive".

^1 [https://hackernoon.com/becoming-fully-reactive-an-in- depth-e...](https://hackernoon.com/becoming-fully-reactive-an-in-depth- explanation-of-mobservable-55995262a254)

</comment><comment><USER13> Neat project, although selecting cells often does not work. (I assume that's because it's in alpha.)

This line, though:

> is lightweight: ~2000 lines of source code (excluding libraries)

I feel like that's a very different meaning of "lightweight" than I normally think of. I guess you're considering it from the perspective of a developer who works on it. As a user, however, the browser downloads 1.4MB of javascript, which is quite large, I'd say.

<comment><USER14> 1.4MB is about 50 VisiCalcs ([http://www.bricklin.com/history/vcexecutable.htm](http://www.bricklin.com/history/vcexecutable.htm)) but I wouldn't call it "quite large" for modern software.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Does having JavaScript in the cell formulas allow you to do anything more than you could already do with Excel?

<comment><USER2> Yes! Regex, tables that can expand/contract (not just arrays) are two big ones.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> Could be cool, but this has zero screen reader accessibility. I hope this gets fixed.

<comment><USER2> Good point, thank you. It is added to the isssues log. I'd love to hear more about what would make Mesh more accessible for you and others.

[https://github.com/chrispsn/mesh/issues/68](https://github.com/chrispsn/mesh/issues/68)

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> If you like this concept, you might like [https://clay.run](https://clay.run) which is spreadsheet + functions hosted in the cloud

</comment><comment><USER18> This reminded me of Histogram: [http://tomasp.net/histogram/](http://tomasp.net/histogram/)

</comment><comment><USER19> Any idea how to run this on an iPad?

<comment><USER2> It should work on iPad, although it's designed as a keyboard-preferred experience. What were you trying to do?

<comment><USER19> Not sure why, but the edit button doesn't seem to work, and I think that is preventing the keyboard from coming up (using virtual, not physical keyboard).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Spiffy! I like this !

</comment><comment><USER21> Chris,

"substantially improve the status quo of spreadsheets and, by extension, programming."

I couldn't agree more!

We've created a new kind of spreadsheet for building software -- mintdata.com

Would be great to get your feedback -- any thoughts on what we could improve?

<comment><USER22> Your product looks really interesting, but

\- $95/mo for a single user sets the impression that this is way out of reach for anything I'd consider. Clearly, I'm not the customer. \- The fact that it appears to be using traditional spreadsheet formulas gives me concerns about how general it might be. Mesh is intriguing for its more flexible programming and table model. \- There's a live chat module on your page that appears to not be able to be dismissed, which blocks a lot of the page content.</comment></comment>


Dinosaur Feathers Found in Amber Reinforce Evolution Theories (2011) - <AUTHOR> http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/dinosaur-feathers-found-in-amber-reinforce-evolution-theories/245094/?single_page=true <comment><USER2> I can only imagine that similar discoveries / observations even 10 or 20 years ago may have been overlooked. Until the recent conclusion that some dinosaurs were feathered, paleontologists uncovering feathers in amber or elsewhere may have simply concluded it was a bird specimen and moved on.

Which makes me wonder if there are any other specimens in museums (etc) that may warrant further investigation for clues in the evolution of dinosaurs and birds.

<comment><USER3> You raise an interesting question - 1) did researchers just not see the feathers until there was the idea that they might be seeing feathers? But I can think of a few other interpretations. 2) Researcher don't systematically review everything that they see in amber but instead systematically search for specific features and ignore others (which is only slightly different than #1), 3) feathers are rare enough that it required a searching an extensive collection, which previously wasn't available, and 4) there are very people in the field.

Quoting from [http://www.wired.com/2011/09/dinosaur-feathers- amber/](http://www.wired.com/2011/09/dinosaur-feathers-amber/) :

> When study co-author Ryan McKellar first looked at the amber, the University > of Alberta paleontologist wasn't even interested in feathers. He was > interested in insects. It was only when he and Wolfe noticed odd, hair-like > structures that they wondered if something other than bugs might be > preserved.

I think that gives weight towards your #1, since it shows that (at least some) researchers will notice things other than what they are looking for, which is my #2.

Then again, this Atlantic article says:

> What originally got me interested in this project was a single feather > fragment trapped in a spider web that had been given to Dr. Brian > Chatterton. ... As part of this project I was able to go through the Royal > Tyrrell Museum of Palaeontology collection of 3,000 or so inclusions in > great detail. After finding a lot of feather fragments in this collection, I > had the good fortune of meeting the Leuck family, amateur collectors in > southern Alberta, who donated a pair of additional specimens to the > University of Alberta.

Wikipedia reports that "Only 11 specimens are currently known", so 8 feathers were found in a set of 3,000 pieces of amber with inclusions. I wonder when Chatterton identified that feather. And when the Leuck family recognized that they might have feathers.

These factors give more weight towards #3 and #4.

I can't figure the balance between the different factors, and the primary paper (at [http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6049/1619.abstract#aff...](http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6049/1619.abstract#aff-1) ) is behind a paywall. But I am leaning towards your hypothesis.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> "They can't determine which feathers belonged to birds or dinosaurs yet, but they did observe filament structures that are similar to those seen in other non-avian dinosaur fossils."

So, those could be just... bird feathers.

<comment><USER5> Only one way to find out. We have to clone the creature in the amber. The blood of the mosquito trapped in the amber seems like a good option.

<comment><USER6> Preferably in a remote location that's safe. Like an island.

<comment><USER5> what could possibly go wrong?

<comment><USER7> If anything goes wrong, we'll just do a theme park!

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Luckily humans and dinosaurs never shared the earth. If being around live hens makes me nervous, imagine the horror of being pursued by a giant carnivorous chicken. No, sir, no. Leave me with the lizards.

</comment><comment><USER9> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaKryi3605g)

Can someone address this? I've seen this put forth by many and Dawkins sounds very, very confused and completely avoids the question.

<comment><USER10> It's really stupid to argument on fundamental issues based on the elocution skills of famous people but that sounds like the video discussed here

[http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Dawkins_could_not_give_an_exam...](http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Dawkins_could_not_give_an_example_of_increasing_information)

Creationists are an extreme example of the psychological finding that brains are excellent at amplifying the currently held beliefs no matter which data it is fed by cherry picking just the notions that support the belief system.

The corollary of this is that it is pointless to argument with creationists.

Once I understood this cherry picking done automatically by brains I realized that lots of popular religious material is probably not created by malicious omission of facts but by just simply ... processing information in academically non-rigorous manner.

Like editing video to convey the message the original authors wish to convey, for example.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> But it's just a _theory_.

</comment><comment><USER12> Is US the only place that Evolution needs constant reinforcing?

<comment><USER13> Well, it's just a theory after all...

<comment><USER14> Not sure you understand what "scientific theory" actually implies. "A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory)

A theory is a proven truth until disproved ;)

<comment><USER13> Oh, shi- I forgot: /sarcasm

<comment><USER15> [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law)

Tsk tsk, shame on you...</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Facebook Says Russian Firms 'Scraped' Data, Some for Facial Recognition - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/12/technology/facebook-russian-scraping-data.html <comment><USER2> How come this is an "oh nose!" or even unexpected to anyone? Why is this even a news... I mean it's public data anyway, yeyeye FB policies blablabla

It's not like it's hacked or anything its data scraping. are you telling me the US(FBI/NSA/CIA), or foreign government China, for example, are respecting web privacy policies eh? China has App store rating farms filled with manual labor giving people 5 stars all day, do you think creating accounts and harvesting pictures and metadata would be that hard if it was sponsored by the government?

the fact that FB linked the scrapping to a company, says it not really that much of a government operation

<comment><USER3> I don't think you can take it for granted that most people who use Facebook spend time thinking about privacy issues. I also don't think it's helpful to dismiss things for being obvious - The theory of gravity comes from the 17th century but people were falling to their deaths for quite some time before that.

<comment><USER2> Not really dismissing it, but if people are too stupid to understand that if you put something in public someone will make use of it in a way or another.

I believe the reason why we see this kind of news is because of the ML/AI/big data gold rush, it's finally affordable and everyone wants data so ofc they want the cheapest way and the most useful data is personal data and on and on...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> You can certainly use these neo-mccarthyist PR articles for beneficial purposes after a major security breach just happened. Facebook is the good guy again to the public.

Facebook makes this data easily accessible to literally anyone. Everyone is using it. Facebook is surely at fault for making it that public and easily accessible. It means anyone else could've, and everyone else isn't rainbows and gumdrops clean.

</comment><comment><USER5> > _It had removed 66 accounts, pages and apps linked to Russian firms that > build facial recognition software for the Russian government._

Who's the enemy here? The Russian government scraping Facebook, or the company that's making such things possible?

<comment><USER6> If their intention is to subvert American democracy, then yes, the Russian government is the enemy in this case.

<comment><USER7> Has American democracy been contacted out to Facebook? FYI Google created search by scraping sites.

<comment><USER8> Google never created search. According to Andreessen they were the 23rd company he saw. And by then there were established controls to stop Google from indexing your sites i.e. robots.txt.

These Russian companies are not following the rules Facebook has set so it's not really analogous to Google.

<comment><USER7> Not obeying robots.txt is at most a civil matter, such as Craigslist vs. 3Taps (largely unsettled btw, because internet is public by design). My question still stands.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> What's bad is the next stage is this data set becomes available for people to use in their own apps. Smartphone apps that can identify people you don't know.

<comment><USER10> AR glasses apps where every individual you meet has a bubble on top with its unified internet karma and credit score.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How hard is it to delete old code at your organization and why? - <AUTHOR> <comment><USER2> Difficult. Not so much because of any interest in hoarding code or what not, but simply because said code is already deployed on some live service or another and you really don't want that stuff being broken or potentially broken just to 'tidy it up a bit'.

</comment><comment><USER3> Delete old code? Not hard. Getting the ability to delete old code? Harder. Essentially, going back and refactoring is not possible unless it is linked to a task in Jira. So, we can't just go and fix code that badly needs some help unless it is directly or tangentially related to an issue. It's understandable but frustrating as there is a lot of code and not enough time.

</comment><comment><USER4> Very difficult:

Technical debt and systems that are older than today's first-year students in computer science relying on broken implementations. It is work-arounds all the way down.

</comment><comment><USER5> Very difficult. It's due to what I consider a hoarding mentality ("what if we need it later?") and the misconception that there is no cost to keeping it around.

<comment><USER6> Can't you solve "what if we need it later?" mentality with git (or some other append-only repo) and static analysis?

<comment><USER5> Yes, but if the code isn't in the current version of production or master, there is a high probability that nobody will know or remember it even exists.</comment></comment></comment>


Vietnam War Deserters Who Sought Asylum in Sweden - <AUTHOR> https://lithub.com/the-vietnam-war-deserters-who-sought-asylum-in-sweden/ <comment><USER2> All Vietnam war deserters were given a conditional amnesty by Gerald Ford shortly after he pardoned Nixon in 1974, and all deserters were ultimately pardoned by the Carter administration in 1977 so that they could return home.

</comment><comment><USER3> This is an extremely interesting and underrepresented story.

I only know of the self-destructive story of the Japanese radical left, the United Red Army, RAF sympathizers, which is depicted in Wakamatsu Kōji's masterpiece "United Red Army". Crazy times.

</comment><comment><USER4> What was the reason passport holding US citizens had to be "smuggled" to leave e.g Japan? Was it because US authorities would withdraw their passports as soon as they were discovered to be missing? In those days I'd expect that type of information to travel quite slowly.

Or were soldiers not even allow to keep their own passports when based abroad?

<comment><USER5> Passports aren't mandatory in the US so it's common for someone who doesn't travel internationally not to have one. When I went to Asia in the military in the 90s, that was the case for me, but they let me in and out based on my military ID card. I doubt that would have worked if I'd tried to fly to a third country.

<comment><USER6> In 1990 only around 3% of the US population had a passport[1]. These days it's up to 42% due to a combination of stricter ID requirements (particularly at the Canadian and Mexican borders) and an increase in popularity of international travel among Americans in general.

[1]: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the- sh...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/11/the-share-of- americans-holding-a-passport-has-increased-dramatically-in-recent-years- infographic/#16df3a7b3c16)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> > the Japanese radical left ... appealed to me as a classic David and Goliath > struggle, with a small group of idealistic young anti-war activists

well those 'David's coordinated with N.Korea to kidnap people to North korea...

One famous example: Japanese Airlines 351 - kidnapped a plane & tried to take everyone to N. Korea (but S. Korean gov. fooled them into believing Kimpo airport as a N.Korean one...)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_351](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_351)

<comment><USER8> Yes, a small cadre of extremists did this, after they were kicked out of the Japanese Communist Party for being violent nut jobs. They were by no means exemplary of the movement.

At the same time, the right-wing in Japan (who was composed of former war criminals and had deep ties to organized crime in the country), was extensively funded and provided counterintelligence on their political opponents by the CIA. This intentional subversion of Japanese democracy guaranteed that the country could be used (at great cost to the Japanese people) as a forward operating base for US imperialism in SE Asia, something which was, and continues to be, deeply unpopular, even by those who are not "radical leftists."

[https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent- millions-...](https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-to- support-japanese-right-in-50-s-and-60-s.html)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi)

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/04/09/national/contam...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/04/09/national/contamination- kadena-air-bases-dirty-secret/)

<comment><USER9> I really dislike the characterization of Vietnam as US "Imperialism" when it was more a proxy war between US and USSR and/or futile involvement in another countries civil war. Many, many people appreciated the US fighting back against a communist takeover. Hiding behind "nationalism" was a PR move by revolutionary leadership, and not the real/main driver for it

<comment><USER8> The country devolved into civil war after the US deposed and had executed the country's leader, who they had previously corruptly installed, but I guess found insufficiently compliant.

If it's not "imperialism" to fix elections, then overthrow and murder the people you help elected, pushing the country into horrific violence (which you then exacerbate), I'd like to know what rises to the level of your definition of the term.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_South_Vietnamese_coup](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_South_Vietnamese_coup)

<comment><USER10> The country was undergoing decolonization following WWII and got caught in the middle of two nuclear powers who couldn't openly fight each other without risking a nuclear exchange. It's a miracle that Vietnam isn't split in two like Korea.

I'm not trying to rationalize the conduct of the US, there's plenty of blood on our hands when it comes to removing/installing foreign leaders, but this was a very complex situation with many players that lasted for over 30 years following the end of WWII. It's disingenuous to reduce it to 'American imperialism'.

<comment><USER11> I don't think "American imperialism" has to be a reduction. American imperialism is one part of a complex picture.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


Cluster of 295 Chrome extensions caught hijacking Google and Bing search results - <AUTHOR> https://www.zdnet.com/article/cluster-of-295-chrome-extensions-caught-hijacking-google-and-bing-search-results/ <comment><USER2> The reporter's experience with reporting Chrome Web Store malware reflects mine: Nobody at Google cares about malware enough to stop distributing it when people report it. The "Report Abuse" button probably goes straight to an unmonitored spam folder.

Hint to anyone working on security at Google: It actually doesn't matter what obscure zero-days you discover and patch when you distribute malware directly that relies on supported functionality. There's no need to exploit security holes when malware is simply permitted as-is.

Shut the Chrome Web Store down until you're prepared to take it seriously.

<comment><USER3> From a now year-old EFF blog post [1] regarding Chrome extensions and the Google Manifest V3 "proposal":

 _The "Report Abuse" link doesn 't seem to produce results, obfuscated code doesn't seem to trigger red flags, and no one responds to user reviews._

[1]: [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/07/googles-plans- chrome-e...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/07/googles-plans-chrome- extensions-wont-really-help-security)

<comment><USER4> I wouldn't be surprised if their staff have no tooling for looking at user reviews, period. The UI for looking at user reviews of your own stuff as a developer is really, really bad and I know that in the past other Google properties have had this issue - YouTube annotations were invisible to their trust and safety staff, for example.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> As someone who's had difficulty publishing open-source software into the Google and Apple ecosystem I get super angry when bunch of malicious crap-ware is found.

Why do I have to go through a dozen iterations and emails and phone calls yet garbage seems to get through w/o issue.

Insert rant about their respective approval processes. I've read others on HN, so use one of them. The sentiment is the same.

<comment><USER6> >Why do I have to go through a dozen iterations and emails and phone calls yet garbage seems to get through w/o issue.

I because you probably make probably software with a real function and not just 'Wallpapers'

<comment><USER2> But presumably an extension for wallpapers shouldn't be accepted: If you can get rid of an entire class of extension code by supporting wallpapers... let people set their new tab wallpaper, block all new tab extensions that say "wallpaper", and tada, entire vector for malware gone.

Extensions are a massive security vulnerability: They often have access to your web browsing activity, and they sit _after_ TLS termination, _inside_ your browser's trusted environment.

Browser extensions should be rejected by default, and have to constantly justify their existence. Pointless extensions (including "cloud to butt", sorry guys), should never have been accepted.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> FWIW, front running[1] Google ads, and to a lesser extent Bing ads, is big money. At Blekko we ran into these people all the time.

What they wanted was to send the search query that the user had typed into Google to us, and have our advertising partners provide an Ad, and they would inject it ahead of Google's ads.

For which they would share the revenue that the Ad partner was paid 50/50 with us. And for this service they said our cut would be $10K - $20K per week.

The funny part was they required to be notified immediately if Google changed its page layout because, well they needed to blend in or the game was up. I wrote a grease monkey script to change the page background after ads had loaded on a Google search engine results page (SERP) and yup, you could see their ad sitting there.

Of course Google would catch on, especially when people complain that Google was showing them ads for inappropriate products or what not and Google would investigate and track down the front doing the injecting. The half life of these fronts seemed to be 6 months to a year depending on how greedy they got. The people behind the front would vanish and pop up under a new name somewhere else.

The sad thing, for me, is that when you put your infosec hat on you realize its super easy to phish an unsuspecting someone by sending fake mail from a friend for a cool backdrop or display toy. Once they are on the hook you can wait until they search for something on Google and inject a very nice result for them to click on that stops off at your drive by zero day site to pick up your payload and its off to the races.

[1] From the article -- _"... then proceeded to quietly inject ads inside Google and Bing search results."_

<comment><USER2> What floors is me is that Google is so lax on fixing the Chrome Web Store, when they're literally distributing things that hijack their primary business, search and ads.

How is Chrome Web Store malware not a five-alarm fire that sends Sundar Pichai down into the cubicle farm to find someone's head to stick on a pike? Like, this should be THE issue that Google cares about.

...And malware that hijacks your search engine on Chrome has been all but unpoliced for most of the past decade.

<comment><USER7> It is difficult to understand. I know that when I worked there the way advancement worked (the only way to get a raise) was that you shipped a "new" thing. People who just fixed bugs never got recognition company wide, but people who shipped a new thing FULL of bugs? They got to go up on stage with Larry and be held up as some who gets things done. (and get promoted)

That had started changing by 2010. They at least had an official way to recognize one person a quarter, if they were nominated, for doing solid infrastructure work.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER8> Chrome team has tried to make some changes to improve the situation, but browser extensions are still a perfect target for malware and abuse because of a structural problem:

Users install these (free) extensions on a whim, installation takes 2 clicks and seconds. They make a point-in-time decision: "I find this useful today, and I trust the extension is not malware today"

But what they are really saying is: "I trust the (changeable) owner of this extension with whatever data this extension has access to forever and ever" (Nobody uninstalls these extensions, and now Chrome will even sync your extensions when you buy a new device.)

It's the imbalance of that decision that is the problem, no amount of filtering and UI changes and API updates will fix that imbalance.

<comment><USER9> The Chrome Web Store is grossly understaffed. Google as a whole relies too much on automated processes rather than humans, but this is particularly a problem in the Chrome Web Store, because Google requires every extension to be distributed via the Store, but they just don't have the staff to review every extension properly. There's no way Google can "curate" the volume they handle, especially with their limited staffing.

<comment><USER10> Then it's time to mark all but the most used and obviously trustable extensions as untrusted.

Then they can take whatever staff they have, and review them properly.

And accept the fallout of their staffing choice if it means drop in Chrome usage or whatever else.

They want to leave a gaping malware hole, it's time to hold them accountable dammit.

<comment><USER9> > Then it's time to mark all but the most used and obviously trustable > extensions as untrusted.

That's basically what Firefox has done.

<comment><USER11> More, actually. Some excerpts from [https://blog.mozilla.org/firefox/firefox- recommended-extensi...](https://blog.mozilla.org/firefox/firefox-recommended- extensions/) : "Our team evaluates all content under consideration for the Recommended Extensions program.", "... subject to ongoing re-evaluations to ensure they continue ...", "... not only perform as they promise, but do so at an exceptional level. For instance, there may be many ad blockers out there, but not all ad blockers are equally effective.", (and last but not the least) "... undergo full code review by staff security experts ..."

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> Filtering the noise:

      ^.*(Tab|Theme|Wallpaper|Background).*$

Residual signal:

      flbcjbhgomclbhlchggbmnpekhfeacim, "ScreenShot & Screen Capture Elite"
      adfjcmhegakkhojnallobfjbhenbkopj, "Weather forecast for Chrome™"
      bfeecodfffgkdedfhmgbfindokikafid, "GTA 5 Grand Theft Auto"
      bpnmalopmgpilaoikaeafokedkkonhea, "Sports Cars"
      cgdmknakejoaompdmdeddpgmjffnniab, "Suga"
      dapecdhpbakbfcoijjpdfoffnajhifej, "Avengers Endgame"
      eeeiekjkpbneogggaajnjldadjmclhlo, "Bts Suga"
      egicjjdcjhfdnejimnhngogjmoajffpm, "Video Downloader and MP3 converter Pro"
      ejighbgeedkpcambhfkohdalcgckdein, "Adblocker for YouTube - Youtube Adblocker"
      enlaekiichndcbohopenblignipkjaoa, "Auto Replay for YouTube"
      nfhbpopnbgigkljgmelpfncnghjpdopf, "Ad-block for YouTube - Youtube Ad-blocker Pro"
      ojhlagjgjbjfgllocdhlpnkbdlcipnmo, "Cars"
      pcgcmplcfdfkkkmaggghdghnlddkpbbo, "DBS and Dragon Ball Super"

<comment><USER13> Filtering the noise:

        "ScreenShot & Screen Capture Elite",
        "Weather forecast for Chrome™",
        "GTA 5 Grand Theft Auto",
        "Sports Cars",
        "Suga",
        "Avengers Endgame",
        "Bts Suga",
        "Video Downloader and MP3 converter Pro",
        "Adblocker for YouTube - YouTube AdBlocker",
        "Auto Replay for YouTube",
        "Ad-block for YouTube - Youtube Ad-blocker Pro",
        "Cars",
        "DBS and Dragon Ball Super"

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> > However, the vast majority of the malicious extensions (245 out of the 295 > extensions) were simplistic utilities that had no other function than to > apply a custom background for Chrome's "new tab" page.

So I have to make my own browser extensions just for one purpose, to set my own custom url for the newtab page. This is also a problem in firefox. It's quite unfortunate that browsers have moved so far from being user-agents, or at least somewhat attentive to the needs of more sophisticated users that instead of getting more robust tooling for user style sheets, custom javascript, apis to block or modify requests we are either forced into sketchy extensions that replicate the basic functionality or can't even do that because it's outright blocked.

Heck firefox has what seem to be perpetually unfixable bugs with bookmarklets not working on CSP[1] sites (for example github) which contradicts the spec and which never seem to be prioritized for being fixed.

1: [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19822716/javascript- book...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19822716/javascript-bookmarklet- on-site-with-csp-in-firefox)

<comment><USER4> Specs are wrong sometimes, and I think there's an argument to be made that the spec is wrong here. Firefox's policy re: bookmarklets on CSP sites is probably the best choice for protecting ordinary computer users, bookmarklets and javascript: urls are a common attack vector for targeting high-value websites like discord, slack and gmail (with the caveat that browsers have slowly locked down those attacks). Just open the developer console on discord sometime, they show an enormous message telling you not to paste stuff in there.

I do think it would be worthwhile to have some sort of power user mode to override that for bookmarklets, but I can understand not wanting to invest resources in building it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> The irony of google spending so much money on Project Zero to call out other company's security issues while they internally ignore their own.

<comment><USER2> Project Zero is about making their competitors look bad, not helping the public. There's a reason they went after Fortnite immediately upon announcing they wouldn't distribute through the Google Play Store: Project Zero's job there was protecting Google's 30% revenue cut.

There's nothing ironic when you understand the actual purpose, as opposed to what they claim it's about.

<comment><USER16> That makes no sense. The users who care about this are so much on the fringe that a single day's churn will probably wash them out.

No one in the real world cares about some random CVE. "REMOTE CODE EXPLOIT!", security experts yell, while the vast majority of people just continue installing Bonzi Buddy 4.0 : The Return of the Bonz.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> "In a technical analysis shared with ZDNet, AdGuard said all extensions loaded malicious code from the fly-analytics.com domain, and then proceeded to quietly inject ads inside Google and Bing search results."

The original post has some details and recommendations:

[https://adguard.com/en/blog/fake-ad-blockers- part-3.html](https://adguard.com/en/blog/fake-ad-blockers-part-3.html)

What I don't quite understand is how do people make money from these things without getting caught? Is it not obvious where the money goes as people are getting paid from the fraud? Or is it more like no one cares?

<comment><USER18> Add

        0.0.0.0 fly-analytics.com

to /etc/hosts

<comment><USER19> My router has a built in word filterer. So I just added-

analytic, adservice, pixel,doubleclick, googlead,facebook, applauncher, Xiaomi,track, taboola and outbrain.

This only applies to subdomains and domains(due to Https).

So adservice.google.com is blocked but google.com/adservice is allowed.

<comment><USER20> So you have TrackMania, trackpad, race track blocked?

<comment><USER19> If those are websites, then no. All websites are opened within my browser. The keyword thing applies only to apps.

My browser (firefox) has DNS over HTTPS built in. So every request goes to cloudflare-dns.com.

My router only sees these requests when I use Firefox - mozilla.cloudflare- dns.com

I use uBlock Origin in Firefox. So I can control whatever I want within the browser.

This a very good approach to adblock on a whole network.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER21> Google doesn't care about the rampant spam extensions on the Android store/Chrome extension store.

One of my co-workers reached out to me asking about a pop-up saying she needed to install a chrome extension. I looked it up and it's some adware extension. Has 30 "reviews" with 5 stars and it's obvious that they're all paid/bot reviews.

</comment><comment><USER22> If you just search for any legitimate extension, you find so much _junk_. One well-known example: Search for uBlock Origin and you will find a sketchy one name "uBlock."

This seems something super easy to fix, but Google already has problems with apps on the Play Store, so not sure if I expect much better on the Web Store.

<comment><USER23> It's complicated: uBlock is the original extension, and uBlock Origin is a fork by the original lead developer.

At this point, uBlock is sketchy while uBlock Origin is well respected, but it seems hard to come up with a rule that would justify banning uBlock?

<comment><USER24> Google doesn't have to allow all transfers of extensions between different groups. The behavior of the new owner could have justified transferring it back.

<comment><USER23> Transferring it back from AdBlock to Chris Aljoudi? Or from Chris Aljoudi to Raymond Hill?

<comment><USER24> Did AdBlock immediately do anything that wasn't intended to be authorized by Chris? I meant the latter.

<comment><USER23> As far as I can tell, Chris didn't immediately do anything that would have justified transferring it back either. Raymond was sick of dealing with low quality support requests, and so transferred the project to Chris. Over time, Raymond didn't like the direction Chris was taking the project, however, and started recommending his uBlock Origin fork for general consumption.

More context on how things were around the time of the initial transfer: [https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/issues/38#issuecomment-918...](https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/issues/38#issuecomment-91871802)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> 295 spam extensions from probably the same developer is hardly newsworthy. Just look at the list rather than just reading the headline.

With that said after a fairly simple extension I had installed for many months upgraded itself automatically to replace links with "eco links" that supposedly helped the environment I stopped installing extensions that weren't ublock or from google themselves. I'm much more willing to install a random app on my windows machine than I am a random chrome extension, thats just how untrustworthy I find the chrome store to be.

</comment><comment><USER26> I don't mean to sound like a curmudgeon but, except for officially supported developer plugins, I just don't get the need or desire for all this browser extension bling. (though I guess I might have downloaded an SSH extension for the browser in my chromebook at some point) I suspect it's an extension of my embrace of the Unix philosophy (simple tools) to GUI programs. Anyway, I'm certainly happy these bad actors were exposed.

<comment><USER27> But extensions _do_ follow the Unix philosophy, if you look at them at a certain angle!

\- The browser does one thing it does well, which is showing (running?) web pages.

\- A typical extension does one thing (like annotating screenshots, or filtering trackers, or applying custom CSS), and does it hopefully well.

\- You collect the extensions you want, and safely ignore the others; they compose without a hitch.

I run Firefox, and I run the following extensions, _each_ doing its own narrow and separate thing:

\- A password manager extension to fill in credentials.

\- uMatrix for filtering out unneeded parts of Web pages (more for speed than for privacy).

\- Stylus for custom CSS on certain sites.

\- Foxy Gestures for mouse gestures.

\- Markdown Here to render Markdown pieces of input controls to HTML (works great with Gmail or Jira).

 _Thank goodness_ I don't need to depend on whatever features the browser maker had time to provide to address similar needs, if any.

I wish the browser was _even more_ like Emacs, where you have a barebones editor (or browser) and most of the UX around is provided by extensions. I see how it's a much more complex task in the browser environment due to security considerations, though.

<comment><USER28> I also use

\- Decentraleyes -- Local cache and forced used of common CDN scripts.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> This requires "change all data on the websites you visit", right?

When I get asked for this permission for utility function, I just refuse to install it. Only if I really trust the extension and know it needs that permission, is when I give it.

As for other extensions that asks for this permission, I keep wondering why don't they define domain whitelist where this extension applies...

<comment><USER4> There is a domain whitelist function, it's rarely used because the ergonomics of it are terrible. Adjusting the whitelist disables your extension silently instead of showing a new permission prompt.

I used the whitelist like a sensible developer and then when a website changed its URL my extension silently broke for 100k people. Not great.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Funny... filtering out these type of extensions was my intern project 2 years ago at Google.

</comment><comment><USER31> Chrome has the windows popularity problem. I run into these extensions all the time but never with Firefox or classic edge. A lot of times they're sideloaded. They really should allow only extensions with a valid certificate so they can revoke them. They should also treat sideloaded extensions the same way they do sideloaded apps on android (explicit opt-in with warning).

</comment><comment><USER32> Sounds like every browser toolbar from back in the day.

</comment><comment><USER33> Another reason why I really love Safari. It's so incredibly lightweight. The ability exists to install extensions, but no one makes them. Head in the sand security. I guess you could say my experience is handicapped without extensions and add-ons, but the performance and no-bullshit-factor is impossible to match.

<comment><USER34> > but the performance and no-bullshit-factor is impossible to match.

I'd say having ublock and some privacy blocker enabled boosts the standard browsing performance quite a bit. It's not really available in stock browsers.

<comment><USER33> I have a gigabit internet connection and pihole setup for the whole LAN, so I'm feeling the boost over here too.

<comment><USER34> Gigabit internet doesn't prevent a slow ad-injection script from reflowing everything on the page a second after you think it's done. + pihole can't block first-party content.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Minimum Viable Language - <AUTHOR> Every language should come with a "minimum" instruction set. A curated subset of commands and syntax that makes the most common 80% of tasks possible.
My guess is that the MVL for Javascript + jQuery would be about 10% the size of the L.
It would have saved me years of learning and practice time if Javascript + jQuery had an MVL, and I had access to it. <comment><USER2> What you're looking for is Scheme, or perhaps Javascript as it existed in 1995.

The problem with the MVL approach is that ultimately people pay us to solve their problems, and don't care how complicated it makes our lives. That complexity has to go somewhere, and usually the best place for it is in the code, else you're just doing your customer's problem manually. Eventually people realize that they're writing the same code over and over again, and that they could save a lot of time as programmers if those features were just built into the language.

I'd really encourage you to study Scheme and write a few programs in it. It's famous for being the language where you can implement all the _other_ language features in it. So for example, it's pretty common to implement your own object system in it; your programs won't be compatible with libraries that use any _other_ object systems (which is a major reason why it's not used industrially), but you can play around with classical inheritance, prototypes, access control, multimethods, virtual dispatch, and so on all within the language. Similarly, promises, async, green threads, collections, list comprehensions, type systems, and many other language features can all be done as libraries, using the basic features of closures, continuations, macros, cons cells, and arrays. Even things like if-statements, exceptions, and loops don't need special language features, although they're standardized across implementations.

<comment><USER3> [Every language should come with a "minimum" instruction set. A curated subset]

OP is referring to 'get started' documentation, not to the language itself being minimal-size.

</comment></comment><comment> a-saleh I had similar problem, but then I started to look at it from the other way around, and now I am just carrying around a few concepts in my head that I really like, and every time I need to learn new language, I am first looking at how these concepts map:

* data definitions for lists and key/value pairs, and how to nest them, change them, access them

* function and anonymous function definitions

* map, filter, reduce/fold over lists and key/value pairs

* api to communicate with world that uses tasks/promises

This way, my code looks familiar and similar regardless if I write it in C#, Javascript, Java, or Clojure.

Main drawback is, that this limits my comfort zone to languages that have at least lambdas and closures.

</comment><comment><USER4> What I consider MVL for JS is ES3. ES3 JavaScript was "good enough" JS to the point that anything else you need came in the form of libraries, polyfills or transpiled (to some extent) back to it.

</comment><comment><USER5> Have a look at k5's full language spec: [http://kparc.com/k.txt](http://kparc.com/k.txt)

</comment><comment><USER6> Read on Shen & Kl.

<comment><AUTHOR> They seem interesting. Question: how does one write code using these (or any other language really) so that it can run in a user's browser?</comment></comment>


Delicious in Purgatory - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/29/delicious-in-purgatory/

<comment><USER2> I stopped using Delicious when i found Firebox bookmark synchronisation extensions (Google Browser Sync was it?) and now Chrome does that (and more) out-of-the-box. Google is on a good position to tackle that "market", perhaps better than Yahoo. Besides (about on the link sharing part), i [personally] already find lots of interesting links on HN, Twitter and the likes, which i store on the browser bookmarks and Google stores in the clawd

</comment><comment><USER3> Is it just me, or would Xmarks and Delicious make a good match? Both live in the same realm, and both have large and interesting data sets. I know Xmarks has been purchased, but would a match like this make sense?</comment>


Galaxy users, take note: Samsung's probably selling your data - <AUTHOR> https://www.computerworld.com/article/3514999/samsung-selling-data.html <comment><AUTHOR> Can't say I'm surprised, with all the junk that comes preloaded and cannot be uninstalled.

</comment><comment><USER2> This is why I would never use a phone that I couldn't put a reasonable ROM on.</comment>


96 Technology Blogs That Will Make You Stop and Think - <AUTHOR> https://www.sealights.io/blog/96-technology-blogs-that-will-make-you-stop-and-think/ <comment><AUTHOR> Hey y'all, so a few things about this list: a) I created it because most of the roundups I've seen suck in my opinion. They mainly list obvious choices only. Safe. b) In my mind this will always be a work in progress so 100% there are blogs out there that I've never heard of - let me know what is missing! c) I'm considering moving this over to a site of its own if you all think that this is a good resource for the community worth maintaining - let me know what you think.</comment>


OneTraction accelerator – scam? - <AUTHOR>

I recently tried applying to accelerators on AngelList and received an acceptance letter to an accelerator called 'OneTraction', without talking to anyone or nothing, my team was asked to pay an "acceptance" fee of 390$, this startup boasts on their mentors page Sean Parker as a founder and an investor and Reid Hoffman as a mentor, after some research, I was unable to find any press about "OneTraction" which is odd considering the names mentoring this accelerator
This led me to believe that the accelerator in question is a scam which tries to rob us poor entrepreneurs from our food money in a critical time. If I'm mistaken, I'm sorry, I would love to be mistaken, does anyone know of this?
Profile in question: https://angel.co/onetraction/ <comment><USER2> I'm also interested in this, got the same email seems like a scam?</comment>


The state of the restaurant industry - <AUTHOR> https://www.opentable.com/state-of-industry <comment><USER3> Wow, 50-70% drop in online reservations, phone reservations, and walk-in diners, compared to last year, in every country measured by OpenTable.

The restaurant sector generates $3 trillion in annual sales worldwide, and provides employment to a vast number of individuals.[a]

Absent government intervention, the cascading economic impact from just this one sector will be enormous.

[a] [https://medium.com/@CravyHQ/the-restaurant-industry-a- global...](https://medium.com/@CravyHQ/the-restaurant-industry-a-global- perspective-26cea1b91701)

<comment><USER4> > _The restaurant sector generates $3 trillion in annual sales worldwide, and > provides employment to a vast number of individuals_

Can someone with an economics background tell me whether this is a sound argument? It _looks_ like it could be reasonable to me, but it also looks a lot like the examples of deadweight losses in Bastiat's "That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen".

I would guess that we should count the $3T transferred as a cost on one side of the book and as a benefit on the other side, and from an accounting standpoint not care much either way. I'd also guess we should somehow try to compare the relative value of the service on each side of the transaction to gauge somw "surplus" value. People get food they value at $3.1T, and they pay $3T, and the workers would have done the job for $2.9T, so society wins by $200B in aggregate. Or something. But maybe that's nonsense?

I don't know if that's reasonable, but I am fairly convinced that we shouldn't dig $3T worth of ditches just to fill them in. That _is_ deadweight loss.

At the very least I think we can assume that restaurants are not a deadweight loss because they're profitable, though. People often choose to pay that premium over cooking for themselves, and we should trust that those choices reflect personal relative value well.

<comment><USER5> I think the most important thing is that they're both a net wealth transfer to local food service workers (who by and large are relatively low income) and fuel demand down the road.

Most people will be able to cook for themselves just fine, but by doing so they'll be saving money, which would otherwise have been spent locally. This means that that money won't go on to restaurant workers to be spent, and the remainder won't show up as profit for the restaurant. (Instead it'll go into savings, which will likely have a negligible effect at best since money is ~free to borrow these days)

Locally this will lead to a depressed demand for everything and globally lead to a decrease in paper GDP and profit for the companies (read: stonks go down).

So honestly, I would argue that paying people to dig ditches (vs do literally nothing else, though at that point you might as well just give them cash) is in and of itself beneficial, though of course less so than doing something that generates a benefit outside of that from the activity itself.

<comment><USER4> > _So honestly, I would argue that paying people to dig ditches (vs do > literally nothing else, though at that point you might as well just give > them cash) is in and of itself beneficial_

This is the point -- paying people to dig ditches breaks down into two activities:

\- Paying people, which is net zero benefit. (Otherwise we could all sit in a circle and pay each other to riches.)

\- Doing useless work, which is net negative. (Effort, materials and time spent that coukd have been spent on leisure or actually productive ends.)

GDP is obviously a bad measure here. For the same problem stated another way, Google and Wikipedia are free, but increase productivity and aggregate wellbeing immeasurably.

<comment><USER5> Paying people is only net zero if the people being paid go and do the same thing the people paying would have done with that money.

In this case, I'm arguing because of the economic class of the ditch diggers that this is not the case. The ditch diggers will spend the money locally, rather than saving it, on things that give them greater utility than what the people paying for ditches would have gotten (which is most likely just saving it).

I agree asking people to dig ditches for the money is stupid, but in reality they'd either be doing something productive that wouldn't have otherwise been done for structural reasons (building national parks, windmills, solar panels, etc., things where there is a positive externality that prevents the market from doing it) or receiving the money for free.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> My wife an I opened a nail and wax salon 6 months ago. Really don't know what to do, so far they haven't asked us to shutdown. Business had been steadily growing and we are about break-even. No idea how this will play-out, what if anything the building owner can do to help out, or how the federal help might work for a small business like ours.

The rent and payroll are our biggest expenses naturally, we can of course cut hours and even close entirely; no idea what our staff will do with no income.

If this lasts more than 3-4 weeks (which is likely), yeah it's hard to say how any business is going to survive.

Only good thing is I have a full time job for a major health company and our mobile app usage this week has sky rocketed... so my day job is quite secure at least.

<comment><USER7> > Really don't know what to do

People are trapped at home, itching to get out. You run aggressive promotions right now to drive up your customer base since everyone is sitting at home bored with nothing to do.

<comment><USER8> Would that be a socially appropriate action to take?

Encourage people out of their homes at a time when it seems that the exact opposite is needed to start controlling the spread of the virus?

<comment><USER7> People are still going out and doing things. Grocery store is open, home improvement stores are open, Walmart is open. It sounds like their business is currently open, so they might as well bring in more customers.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> Not to trivialize the numbers, but people still have to eat, so these dollars are largely being re-allocated elsewhere, primarily to takeout, food delivery, and grocery stores. Other sectors that are service-based represent real net loss in GDP.

<comment><USER10> Even delivered groceries are _significantly_ cheaper than eating out. That difference is mostly the income of restaurant workers.

<comment><USER9> If there's a silver lining, it's that takeout is higher margin for restaurants and I'm sure takeout revenue is spiking during city shutdowns.

<comment><USER11> In today's world Uber eats, Grubhub, etc take 30% of the gross on an order. No way it's more profitable than having people in house buying alcohol.

<comment><USER12> The one time I bought on Grubhub I had trouble getting the price to something reasonable even with the coupon I had (only reason I was trying it) because all the menu prices were way higher than at the actual restaurants. Even with (IIRC) the delivery fee waived and a significant % off (I wanna say 20 or 30?) it was about the same as going in. Does Grubhub do the menu-price adjusting part, or do the restaurants?

Unlike your average delivery joint the numbers kept getting worse the more you added, too—no "two large two-topping pizzas and breadsticks at 70% menu price" deals or anything like that.

<comment><USER13> I noticed the same thing a while back with DoorDash when trying to order some Cracker Barrel breakfast. It was something like a 30-40% hike across the board. I emailed DoorDash to ask what was going on with the prices and got a super misleading response along the lines of "our partner restaurants set their own prices" [1]- basically deflecting the blame back at the restaurant. So I emailed Cracker Barrel, and they are not (or were not at the time) partnered with any delivery service.

[1] actual text from email: "As stated in our Terms and Conditions, the prices for menu items on DoorDash may differ from the prices on the restaurant's own menu. For example, our restaurant partners are responsible for setting the price of their menu items on DoorDash, and some restaurant partners choose to set different prices than they offer for in-store diners."

<comment><USER12> Actually, it may have been DoorDash I used, now that you mention it. Seemed like a really gross way to price delivery, giving fake, higher prices on every single menu item. And then still a delivery fee on top of that! I seriously had to shop around several of their restaurants and several menu combos to find one where I wasn't still paying above-menu even with the fairly "generous" coupon.

<comment><USER14> They charge a flat delivery fee, tip and an 11% "service fee". Not surprised they also have deceptive pricing.

I used the app once because I had a free delivery (that's the 1.99 waived), ending up costing a lot more than just picking it up myself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> I've been trying to encourage people to support local eateries by getting takeout.

I have a compromised immune system. I don't do a lot of eating at restaurants. I do get a lot of takeout and have for a lot of years now.

If you call ahead or order online and pick up, it minimizes your exposure to other people. Little Caesar's has a _pizza portal_ where you can order online, pay online, enter a code at the store and retrieve your own pizza from a customer-facing warming oven without ever directly interacting with a person.

If you aren't sucking wind financially as a consequence of layoffs and shut downs, getting takeout can help protect our economy from a total meltdown while fostering new habits for a healthier future culture.

I'm still getting takeout and some staff at eateries are beginning to greet me enthusiastically by my first name like I'm their best friend, apparently thrilled to pieces to have a regular customer while business is hurting.

<comment><USER16> Anyone knowledge about the probabilities of getting infected from takeout / delivered food? Either via handling at the restaurant itself or en route. All indications are that the virus can survive quite a while on smooth surfaces like plastic bags.

<comment><USER17> The only thing I know, is the people making the food probably don't get paid sick leave. With the huge demand in place for delivery food, the pressure is on from their bosses to keep coming in no matter how sick.

<comment><USER18> The opposite is likely true. For example, the big companies making bentos for the Japanese railway are having their workers come in only 2 days a week. There is no demand and therefore no work. If you are even remotely ill, there is no way you are going to get to work -- there is a healthy person who is desperate to get those hours.

<comment><USER15> I think this is true in this case.

I began trying to encourage people to get takeout because I heard staff talking about cutting staff hours because their sales are so bad. The local Denny's, normally open 24 hours, is only open 8am to 8pm. I saw one guy there working the register. There's normally multiple staff during the day.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Is this really that surprising given that states and countries are now explicitly prohibiting dine-in options and mandating restaurants to be takeout only? I'd love to see this data overlaid against the changes in takeout orders.

<comment><USER20> Absolutely. My town shut down restaurant eat in this week, but when I went my favorite Thai place for pickup the owner said they had one of their busiest Saturdays ever. Despite fear, rational or not, people still need to eat.

<comment><USER21> I heard of at least one fancy restaurant that announced they're going to offer take-out and delivery soon. It's going to be the only way to survive.

<comment><USER22> Here in the Bay Area, that's all _any_ restaurant is allowed to do.

<comment><USER23> Here in the _entire state_ of Ohio, literally every dine in restaurant and/or bar operation has been shut down. Only take out / delivery is allowed: [https://governor.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/governor/media/news...](https://governor.ohio.gov/wps/portal/gov/governor/media/news- and-media/dewine-orders-ohio-bars-restaurants-to-close)

I believe other states / municipalities have started to follow suit, but entire state shutdown has been surreal.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> Getting ready to nose dive totally.

Here in NC we just joined the list of states that have banned dine-in service entirely. Curbside or delivery only, after 5PM today.

<comment><USER25> In Utah it was 11 PM yesterday. Or at least in Salt Lake City.

<comment><USER26> The governor made it statewide earlier today

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Crazy. Over the weekend my friend Brent and I built something to help - [https://givelocal.co/](https://givelocal.co/)

Basically, a site that helps you buy gift cards and support your favorite local restaurant through the COVID pandemic.

Would love community feedback!

</comment><comment><USER28> I feel for the industry, but I'm having a hard time seeing myself buying gift cards at a moment when I'm wondering if I will have a job or food for my family.

<comment><USER29> I was just laid off due to the virus. So yes, be careful.

That is the problem with "corona panic", it causes other people to panic and behave irrationally

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Does that data indicate that seated reservations are only presently down 56% YOY in the US ? That's pretty discouraging if that many people are still ignoring standard guidance.

<comment><USER31> Can someone give money to OpenTable to support restaurant in difficult time?

I wanted to help a couple of local business but there's nothing on-line: Google Maps says that they are open (and my city in in lock-down).

<comment><USER32> If your favorite places offer gift certificates, that's a good way to support them. You're basically giving them an interest-free loan for the amount that you purchase. I've already done this with a bunch of my favorite local restaurants.

<comment><USER33> Sadly OT no longer has their old gift card program, which was my baby when I worked there :<

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> That's about to completely crater. My city issued guidance just yesterday (3/16) that all dining room service is to stop. Drive through, delivery, and curbside only.

<comment><USER35> What city?

<comment><USER36> Not sure about above poster, but I can confirm Dallas did this yesterday.

<comment><USER37> Ft. Worth cut capacity in half. No ones coming in anyway. The city is probably just trying to buy a couple weeks before going all in.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I can't understand why would somebody think that putting latest data on the left is a good idea.

<comment><USER39> We did it because we've got quite a few days in there, and would prefer not to have people scroll when we update the data on a daily basis.

<comment><USER40> Have it by default show the rightmost portion, so that people can scroll to the left if they want? This is how Yahoo Finance shows a stock chart.

<comment><USER39> Could do that. Took less time to change the ordering so we could get this out.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER41> I noticed that the global line and the US line are pretty much within 1% of each other the entire time.

So really this is US data, since it looks like almost all of their restaurants are in the US. I wouldn't put much stock in the other countries.

That being said, this data certainly shows a devastating trend for the restaurant industry.

<comment><USER42> 'trend' doesn't seem like the right word

<comment><USER41> Devastating collapse?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER43> The government has talked about bailouts for various industries from airlines, to cruise ships, to shale companies. But almost every sector of the US economy is going to be hit by this and I have no idea how we are going to react. Will there be a restaurant bailout? What would that even look like? It is much easier to work on bailing out a handful of airlines but how do you handle it for literally thousands of small businesses?

<comment><USER44> UBI is honestly the only solution here.

<comment><USER45> How about something a bit more targeted? Do we really need to give software engineers working from home extra cash?

<comment><USER46> That software engineer would spend it elsewhere in the industry, likely some non-essential.

That hourly worker w/o a job will pay rent and food. Software engineer...a carwash, new lawn equiment, or hell even a vacation.

Giving an airline a tax break won't drive them more customers. Giving their customers more money will give them customers.

<comment><USER45> What? Nobody is going to be flying anywhere soon, regardless of whether you give everybody $1000.

<comment><USER46> $1000 a month per person...Trump has announced at least 2 months of it. I have my salary still. My wife and I get $4000 of free money. What do you think we're going to do with it?

You need to think long term what this money can do.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER47> I own a small share of a bar and we closed yesterday. Definitely hurts financially before St. Patrick's Day. We're lucky that our rent is low and we're a pretty small operation with limited food service. I can imagine for places in downtowns where rent is bigger percentage of sales, that's going to be tough.

<comment><USER48> SBA will be distributing low-interest, long term loans, if it helps any.

[https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/disaster- assistance](https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/disaster-assistance)

<comment><USER49> Restaurants typically run at 3-5% margins, how low are these interest rates?

<comment><USER50> apparently 3.75%

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> This is probably a good proxy of adherence to social distancing

</comment><comment><USER52> I have a friend that owns a restaurant, doesn't sell gift cards online and no idea how to do.

What's the fastest way to set up a Gift Card program?

<comment><USER53> I truly hope your friend can figure out a way through this ... however isn't selling gift cards just kind of punting the problem down the road? If their customers buy gift cards now, and then return to use then in X weeks/months, wouldn't they just be working for "free" at that point (assuming all the funds from the gift cards were used to get them through the customer-less time)?

<comment><USER54> It effectively acts as an interest free loan to the business.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER55> Presumably it should be -100% in cities like NYC where restaurants have been ordered to shut down for in-restaurant dining.

<comment><USER56> The OpenTable data includes takeout and delivery. I think NYC actually might do a bit better than other markets, since there is a strong takeout and delivery culture with most restaurants below the fine dining level.

</comment></comment><comment><USER57> We could turn all these empty hotel rooms into ICU beds if we upgrade to negative pressure ventilation, and we could turn all these empty restaurants into community testing and supply distribution centers staffed by the laid off employees paid for with federal helicopter-drop funds. Think New Deal-level changes.

<comment> Engineering-MD Not real possible. ITU wards are highly specialised. However the UK is already looking at moving the most well patients to hotels and then uograding wards to ITUs.

<comment><USER57> THIS. Yes I'm aware of the challenges, not the least of which is ventilation. But this is a great step towards a pivot. Thanks!

<comment><USER57> [https://www.hospitalityandcateringnews.com/2020/03/covid-19-...](https://www.hospitalityandcateringnews.com/2020/03/covid-19-hotels- to-be-turned-into-hospitals/)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER58> At this point, what good is "seated diners" data when every restaurant is takeout and delivery only?

<comment><USER59> Though some of the major ones may have the restriction, not all US metros have the regulation yet. It would be good to have a data on how much of the number is under the regulation.

<comment><USER60> I would expect these restrictions to be nationwide by this weekend, if not sooner.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER61> Losing 30% of retirement savings likely caused a chunk of this as well. Maybe not the bulk but I'd bet it's a factor in people pulling back on all spending.

<comment><USER7> Technically speaking, nobody should have lost 30% of their retirement savings. Young people should have much more saving to do, so it will be a smaller fraction of their overall retirement savings. Older folks should have been pivoting into less risky assets already.

<comment><USER54> Even losing 15% will cause you to cut spending.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER29> Related to the restaurant industry, Yelp is laying people off due to the corona virus. My contract with the Yelp has been withdrawn.

This "corona panic" will kill more people than the virus itself.

<comment><USER62> Corona panic isn't going to kill more people than the virus. Also, it certainly will kill far less people than if we didn't react at all.

<comment><USER29> "Corona panic isn't going to kill more people than the virus"

I wish I could bet you on that. I could get rich fast

<comment><USER63> You can buy stocks/derivatives.

I'm tempted, though I don't have much cash - I keep putting it into startups (my own and others').

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER64> It's not about industry, it's about the people.

We handle this like any other shuttered or suffering business though no fault of their own, with safety nets for the people.

Problem is those safety nets have been destroyed in this country and people voted for that to happen on purpose because darn if they are going to let one single migrant get assistance. This is the result. People feeling they must go into work sick because "no other choice".

</comment><comment><USER65> If this lasts more than two or three weeks, at least with out a crisp well articulated end game, things are going to go downhill very fast.

<comment><USER66> I don't see how this can be over in less than 3 months.

<comment><USER65> Based on what data?

If you think society will tolerate this kind of lockdown for more than a few weeks, you need to rethink your stance.

If we are locked up for 3 months like this you _will_ have your doomsday scenario. Our entire supply chain will fall apart. People won't get food, medicine, things that make them happy. Sporting events, social gatherings, etc. People will become depressed and kill themselves. People will go nuts and kill everybody around them.

You'll have a situation on your hands much, much worse than this virus. Much worse.

People have lost their damn minds and stopped thinking rationally. Snap out it. Go on a damn walk. Nobody is gonna be locked down for three fucking months. If we actually are, I suggest stocking up on guns and ammo now because that _will_ devolve into a doomsday scenario. One much worse than anything this virus can possibly dish out.

<comment> 2019-nCoV People in Hubei are closing in on 3 months of lockdown. Other provinces not far behind. Are Americans really that uncivilised they cannot bear the thought of several months locked down in the comfort of their own homes?

<comment><USER67> I am sure all the waiters, cooks, restaurant owners, shop owners, shop staff, cleaning crew, construction workers, gardners, pilots, cabin crew, airport staff, taxi drivers, dentists, haidressers and business operators staff for all these businesses will be more than happy to stay at home for 3+ months without pay.

<comment> 2019-nCoV Such is the reality when a large percentage of the workforce are in dispensable jobs that are over-exposed to Black Swan events like this.

Countries with an adequate social security net in place have a (temporary) answer at least.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER68> It would be interesting to see how this lines up with incidence in coronavirus/covid spread. Some places look to be slower on the uptake in dropping restaurant reservations, which may portend a more severe onset of cv in that community.

<comment><USER56> There are some notable outliers, such as major Florida cities showing less of a drop (maybe due to Spring Break?) despite Florida having active cases and I believe a couple of deaths for over a week now.

</comment></comment><comment><USER69> I run an online mobile ordering app for restaurants as a side project and have never seen this many sign ups in one day. I have a full time job so had to bring my gf on to help with customer support.

<comment><USER70> > I run an online mobile ordering app for restaurants as a side project and > have never seen this many sign ups in one day. I have a full time job so had > to bring my gf on to help with customer support.

Interesting, I'd like to see how the indie apps compete against the big guys like Doordash and Uber Eats, especially now during this shutdown. What is your biggest bottleneck, background checks and driver license verification? Bank accounts?

Let me know if you want an extra hand from a remote worker, I used to have to do tech support/emails for my startup, too. All while having a day job so I can understand how overwhelming coming home to 77 unread emails while staring at a backlog of unresolved tickets can be.

<comment><USER70> Interesting update:

[https://downdetector.com/status/doordash/](https://downdetector.com/status/doordash/)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER71> I would love to see similar data for other industries as well. Any form of retail is going to get hit by this. Those that don't have online ordering setup are in for a world of hurt, and those that have it but don't advertise it well may not change the message fast enough.

The long term impact for a lot of people is terrifying, but I don't see a way to avoid it without instead badly damaging our healthcare system and potentially killing a lot of people.

<comment><USER72> We have built a dashboard to do this sort of tracking [https://www.econdb.com/covid/Italy/](https://www.econdb.com/covid/Italy/) which will be improved gradually. Obtaining good proxies for economic activity can be hard on some sectors.

<comment><USER73> Great insights. Thanks for your work!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER74> I ate at a high end Korean steak house the other night in Bali and ALL guests were temperature checked and made to use hand sanitizer on the way into the restaurant. The servers all wore disposable gloves as well. It obviously doesn't stop people who are asymptomatic but it seemed like a great step in the right direction. I imagine if more restaurant venues did this they would get more business during these times.

</comment><comment><USER75> IMHO the state of the restaurant industry is - why does it still exist? I would have expected it to move to a service oriented model a long time ago. Taking into account how underpaid are the workers comapred to how overpriced they usually are it's nothing short of a miracle. I guess there are SOME restaurants that are necessay, but there is a few of them on almost every street near the place I live in.

<comment><USER76> Simple- people other than you enjoy going to restaurants and find value in them.

</comment></comment><comment><USER77> These will be the lingering repurcussions from this crisis. Restaurants might bounce back but the people working in those places will have a tough time.

</comment><comment><USER78> 7shifts also posted yesterday about the effects they're seeing from COVID-19. Their Seattle customers were hit extremely hard [https://www.7shifts.com/blog/covid-19-for- restaurants/](https://www.7shifts.com/blog/covid-19-for-restaurants/)

</comment><comment><USER79> Are the data available in more detail? I would like to see the finer substructures of the data such as food types and changes in preference. My business focuses on providing and building such models. If anyone here is from OpenTable and is interested, feel free to reply to this comment.

</comment><comment><USER80> Looking at this data, prior to asking people to isolate, I wonder if the day to day variation is based on a weekly pattern - people culturally may eat out more on weekends or weekdays, so the same calendar day may not be directly comparable to the one in the previous year.

</comment><comment><USER81> I'd like to see similar data for real estate, though I recognize that the data is much more proprietary and there's a much longer lead time for some events (like closings) but for things like showings, open houses, etc. it would be nice to see.

</comment><comment><USER82> Hubby and I own a coffee shop. We closed up on Monday. We have cash reserves to pay our staff and rent for a month (As if they are still working). Praying we'll be able to increase online bean sales to cover payroll before then.

<comment><USER83> It might be better to lay them all off right now, and let them collect covid unemployment benefits. Maybe give them a bonus on the way out the door if the math doesn't work out well enough for them.

That way, you'll have the cash reserve left over to reliably reopen (and rehire them) after the crisis.

</comment></comment><comment><USER84> We didn't build, now that rent is insane no one will be able to pay it. What happens next? Will _all_ the service workers end up homeless rather than a decent fraction?

</comment><comment><USER85> In Orlando its 50% capacity, but no sales of booze except to go.

</comment><comment><USER86> Houston, like many cities, banned dine-in, though takeout and delivery are still options. Obviously Open Table's data won't reflect those sales.

</comment><comment><USER87> Can anyone explain how you are supposed to pick up food (or have it delivered) while still maintaining the 6-foot distance from other individuals?

<comment><USER88> Leave it on a table?

<comment><USER87> Many restaurants are advertising curbside service. I assume this means they bring it to your car. I'm just trying to understand how this all works.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER89> Nice viz. the 102% increase in New Orleans on feb 25 could be explained due to the ball game between Pelicans vs Lakers

<comment><USER90> Far more likely that it's due to Mardi Gras (Feb 25, 2020)

</comment></comment><comment><USER91> As I was reading this I got a notification that Uber Eats would be providing $0 fee delivery for food in our area.

</comment><comment><USER92> I realise this is an entirely irrelevant point, but any ideas why Germany was doing so well up until this crisis?

<comment><USER41> My guess is that the have very few restaurants in Germany, so it's just noise.

<comment><USER93> Opened opentable.de, they say they have 1744 restaurants in Berlin alone, 624 in Hamburg, and 1122 in Munich, plus many other cities/regions. I wonder why only Munich and Hamburg are in the Cities table, and why there's e.g a jump of 19% in Munich for Sunday March 1.

This year it was warm (for winter) and dry on that Sunday, and last year it was presumably wet and dreary.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER94> On the bright side, I've never received better dine-in service than I have in the past few days.

</comment><comment><USER95> Opentable could help their "restaurant partners" by charging them smaller amount.

</comment><comment><USER96> Good data here. I would love to see Square publish something.

</comment><comment><USER97> Most restaurants moved to take out and delivery mode. Obv no one is doing online reservations these days. I don't understand what's OpenTable trying to say here.

</comment><comment><USER98> What happened in Nebraska in feb 22nd?

<comment> Jim- The Wilder vs Fury fight? :p

</comment></comment><comment><USER99> >the cascading economic impact from just this one sector will be enormous.

The entire hospitality industry is going to take a huge hit. I do work in the convention, corporate travel/event space, and my calendar up until June has been wiped out. Cascading is the key thing people seem to gloss over. Sure, servers and kitchen staff are obvious. The food delivery people will not be needed. Companies like Aramark that provide cleaning services for floor mats/uniforms/etc are not needed. Down the line it goes.

<comment><USER21> Food delivery to homes will probably boom. That's going to be the replacement for visiting a restaurant in the coming weeks or months.

But every luxury industry that involves going outside and meeting people will be wiped out. The tourist industry is going to be completely dead for a while. Hopefully it can be revived afterward. Hopefully the people involved can find other jobs in the mean time. But it's going to be a harsh year for a lot of people.

It's unbelievable how lucky I am that I can do my work from home.

<comment><USER100> if you're home all day long one of the main spurs for going out to eat is gone, at the end of the day you're no longer too tired to make food, you're not getting home too late to make it at a good time, you don't need to save time. Thus the only spur left to wanting to order food is eating something tasty you can't make at home easily - I admit that is good but given that the delivery is also a potential virus delivery I expect that it won't be the replacement.

<comment><USER101> There are a lot of us tech yuppies that either can't cook or won't cook. We will continue to order in all our meals.

Of course that depends on the variety remaining. It may not. It's been 3 weeks and I'm already starting to tire of my local options.

Maybe I might end up learning to cook after all...

<comment><USER102> If you like the technical aspects of "tech", you could learn to love the technical aspects of cooking. You can treat cooking as a chore, an art, or a science. Your choice!

<comment><USER21> Even if you love cooking as an art, it can still be a chore sometimes. It's hard to deliver art when tired, picky children are screaming.

<comment><USER103> Just like it's hard to deliver good code when tired, picky managers are screaming.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER104> I'm always a little surprised that so many people never picked up the ability to even do basic cooking.

Of course, as recently as Sunday people like Nunes were telling people it was important to support their local businesses by eating out as if it were their patriotic duty. It might be different now that even Fox and Trump are saying the same thing as the CDC finally.

Maybe not if people literally cannot feed themselves without eating out, though I think that's pretty embarrassing.

<comment><USER19> > I'm always a little surprised that so many people never picked up the > ability to even do basic cooking.

I'm not, unfortunately. For years now, cooking has been marketed as a waste of time and effort like hand-washing clothes (think fast food advertising).

Just like anything else, cooking takes time, patience and structure to learn, which many people don't ever have naturally. I was lucky to grow up in a household that enjoyed cooking and I learned when I was kid and boy does it pay off in adulthood, but I also see why so many of my peers don't do it. Everything in our world is optimized for time now, and cooking takes time.

<comment><USER105> > For years now, cooking has been marketed as a waste of time and effort like > hand-washing clothes (think fast food advertising).

Maybe that's the marketing message that hits some demographics, but there's also plenty of marketing push in the other direction: All the food channels on cable & youtube, amateur cooking competitions, prosumer kitchen renovations, gourmet grocery stores, dozens of cooking magazines and thousands of cookbooks. Not to mention emphasis that cooking skills are desirable for those in the dating scene.

(Now I'm looking forward to a competitive clothes-washing show... no, that's too absurd. Maybe competitive tailoring.)

<comment><USER106> > _Maybe competitive tailoring_

That exists (kind of). I'm familiar with Project Runway, although that's more fashion oriented but has a strong technical tailoring aspect to it. I'm sure there's more Bob Ross-style shows around sewing/tailoring too.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER107> It's a useless industry, it's a disposable luxury. I feel for the workers, but as a whole, less disposable luxuries sounds good for fiscal responsibility and productivity.

<comment><USER108> That's unnecessarily harsh, but I do agree we might want to consider developing an economy less based on such types of consumer spending. If a particularly bad flu can take us out like these, we are very fragile indeed.

</comment></comment><comment><USER109> Siting at a table with your family that is wiped down just before you sit seems to me like an incredibly low risk activity.

As in, less risky than picking up food from a grocery store where infected people are shopping and touching things on a daily basis.

<comment><USER110> I don't see how it's low-risk to have an infected person preparing your food in the kitchen.

At least with a grocery store, you can wash off the produce before you use it. With a restaurant, there's nothing covering the food at all.

And remember, the chefs in the kitchen are paid peanuts, and have no safety net whatsoever, so there's zero incentive for them to get tested or to stay out of work if they get sick. This is also the case during normal times. Eating out is a good way to catch something in a country where we think it's a great idea to fire cooks and other low-wage workers when they call in sick.

<comment><USER111> A large number of unknown people from the general public have been in contact with the dine-in table. Only a handful of kitchen staff are in contact with surfaces involved in preparing takeout.

Eating at home is still a better idea for the reasons you state, but takeout is an acceptable if less-ideal alternative.

<comment><USER110> I'm not disputing the fact about unknown people from the general public being in contact with the table. That's enough of a reason to not dine-in. I'm just pointing out that I have no trust at all that the cooks aren't infected, and they're coming into intimate contact with your food.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER112> Perhaps US eat-out culture will die, and those who worked those jobs will just have to find some other means by which to negotiate value from the economy.

<comment><USER113> Remarkable how quickly you were able to dehumanize the economic impact on millions of lives and yet simultaneously anthropomorphize the "economy". A single sentence.

<comment><USER112> The restaurant industry is brittle and consolidating, and the the American middle class might not be strong enough to support it anymore. Recent events just magnify the weaknesses of the existing system.

We could talk about things like the expansion of government programs, or we could talk about your theory of how I'm stripping people's humanities away. You would also presume quite poorly if you thought I haven't worked in the food industry.

If you have something interesting to offer to the scenario of collapsing American restaurants, go ahead. Such as more discussion on dehumanization.

<comment><USER114> Whats more remarkable is that no one has made a peep about RENTAL PAYMENT DEFERRALS or SUSPENSIONS to even COMMERCIAL LANDLORDS of APARTMENTS / SINGLE FAMILY HOMES yet somehow sit-down restaurants and their health are a top concern.

These priorities are lop-sided at best.

Restaurants are not a critical component of your basic sustenance. They never were, in the course of human history. Heavy dependence on them for ones immediate sustenance needs is a very recent development.

On the other hand, shelter is.

<comment><USER39> Probably because the buildings aren't going anywhere. Landlords will lose money, but they're less likely to lay off tons of people.

Restaurants employ ~10% of working Americans. A lot of people are going to lose jobs.

<comment><USER114>
      Restaurants employ ~10% of working Americans. A lot of
      people are going to lose jobs.

No one disputes that. Although that 10% figure needs corroboration. As other comments have pointed out restaurants have switched to take-out and delivery and will need ample workers for those operations.

But meanwhile what happens to the other 90% Americans who are working who face uncertain futures - some even in underrepresented sectors or even non-union sectors? How do they make rent or their mortgage payments?

All I'm asking is why are restaurant workers deserving of such singular attention and their concerns need such elevation over the rest of the entire working classes of America including other blue & white collar workers?

<comment><USER39> It's a SINGLE INDUSTRY that represents 10% of our workforce; I think that's more than any other. Overwhelmingly they are non-unionized. Profit margins for restaurants are very slim (avg. around 5%). Take-out/delivery is not going to come close to replacing the lost business. Many restaurants will close - <USER2> already have.

This is not to say other industries (like hotels) won't also be badly hurt. But restaurants are probably the single largest highly effected sector.</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment>


U.S. State of Emergency extended 1 more year - <AUTHOR> http://www.vox.com/2016/8/30/12716268/obama-state-of-emergency <comment><USER2>
        In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the [United States] will be reorganized
        into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society which I assure you will last for
        ten thousand years.

Jokes aside, this 2014 article explains much of the rationale for keeping a state of emergency active. It preauthorizes certain actions, including the ability for the president to reorganize the military and appoint additional generals beyond the number set by law for non-emergency situations. Given political climates where Congress can hold up seemingly minor changes as a political tool, it's not unreasonable for the executive branch to maintain flexibility when things can militarily change on the ground with barely any warning. The scoping, however, is vague, and there should certainly be more guidelines and oversight for the state of emergency itself, than there are now.

[http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/10/22/presi...](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/10/22/president- obama-states-of-emergency/16851775/)

And, for context, we remain in a state of emergency with respect to Iran since the hostage crisis, some 36 years later.

[https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press- office/2016/03/09/notic...](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press- office/2016/03/09/notice-and-letter-continuation-national-emergency-respect- iran)</comment>


Computer says no – Why my dad hates automation in customer support - <AUTHOR> https://unbabel.com/blog/customer-support-automation/ <comment><USER2> I find myself choosing the toll with the human operator, because the one with a machine fails to read my card all the time and says stupid things. However, I feel much better when I have a device in the car and I just drive through it without stopping. So, I will always choose automation, if it's well implemented and saves me time. Sorry humans, it's only a matter of time.

<comment><USER3> Yeah I see irrational humans like you can be handled by irrational machines. Don't you see that machines will never be humans. They will try to become humans but we will spot they are fake. Can you be moved by a robot smiling at you? Emotions do you know what hey are? Empathy does it ring a bell?

<comment><USER3> Btw I choose the toll with the human and feel good I'm protecting her/his job and receive a smile in exchange. Bonus for not being tracked if you pay with cash.</comment></comment></comment>


TreeScope: Finding Structural Anomalies in Semi-Structured Data [pdf] - <AUTHOR> http://www.vldb.org/pvldb/vol8/p1904-Ying.pdf

<comment><USER2> Demo server linked in the paper: [http://22.214.171.124/TreeScope/](http://188.8.131.52/TreeScope/)</comment>