How Men's Bodies Change When They Become Fathers - <AUTHOR> https://parenting.nytimes.com/health/fatherhood-mens-bodies <comment><USER3> Looking into the T drop in fatherhood, the original study seems to account for self reports of 'sleep quality' but I wonder if sleep deprivation is not still a confounder in this finding.

Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep about 5 hours 30min yesterday evening, which would be sufficient sleep 'deprivation' to impact T production.

Also I think parents in general will also have strong bias to not want to acknowledge their own child as a 'nuissance' in a survey/questionnaire.

My key point is that it would be important to reproduce this finding with actual sleep tracking instead of self-reporting sleep quality, to confirm if this is indeed linked with a bonding/interaction mechanism with a child or an unfortunate secondary effect of sleep deprivation.

<comment><USER4> > Annedoctally as a recent father of a 6 month old, I would likely self report > a good sleep quality in a questionnaire. However, objectively I know I sleep > about 5 hours 30min yesterday evening, which would be sufficient sleep > 'deprivation' to impact T production.

When our 9 month old started to sleep through the night (at around 4-5 months), we'd get between 5-6 hours of sleep, which after the interrupted sleep of the previous 4 months, felt like a full night's sleep but this is sleep deprivation territory, specially given the fact that it was 7 days a week.

I know I could only survive on this little sleep because I wasn't exercising.

> Also I think parents in general will also have strong bias to not want to > acknowledge their own child as a 'nuissance' in a survey/questionnaire.

I think this is one of the biggest taboos in Western society:

Anything about a newborn/small child must be 100% positive

This is absolute bullshit

I can see the downsides of having a child without loving him (in my case) any less

<comment><USER5> > When our 9 month old started to sleep through the night (at around 4-5 > months), we'd get between 5-6 hours of sleep, which after the interrupted > sleep of the previous 4 months, felt like a full night's sleep but this is > sleep deprivation territory, specially given the fact that it was 7 days a > week.

Assuming you have the space for it, I never understood couples that insist on both parents being woken up every night by a newborn. Much better for everyone involved to trade off nightly so that the other person can get a full nights rest.

I'm 99% certain that no baby cares that only one parent is being disturbed.

<comment><USER6> I'm not a parent so my knowledge here is pretty scarce, but what I've understood from friends that have kids, is that when a baby wakes up, both parents wake up due to instinct (i.e. is the baby ok?).

So I wonder if what you suggest would require some accomodation. E.g. have the 'on-call' parent sleep in the same room as the baby, and the other one can sleep in another room with the door closed.

Is this what you mean by saying that both parent need not be waken up? or are there some other methods that would help out with this?

<comment><USER5> > So I wonder if what you suggest would require some accomodation. E.g. have > the 'on-call' parent sleep in the same room as the baby, and the other one > can sleep in another room with the door closed.

> Is this what you mean by saying that both parent need not be waken up? or > are there some other methods that would help out with this?

That's what I meant by " _Assuming you have the space for it..._ ". If the baby is in a separate room and there's space for a bed or mattress, whoever is "on-call" stays there and the other parent gets an uninterrupted nights sleep. Or the reverse and the "resting" parent goes and sleeps on the couch. 7-8 hours uninterrupted on a couch wins over repeated interruptions on a bed.

Same system works if you have a grandma visiting to take over for a night. There's no merit badge given out for everyone being equally sleep deprived. It's just worse for everyone, including the baby.

If the mother is directly breast feeding then likely she's going to be taking the heavier end of this load. If the baby is formula fed or she's pumping, there's more leeway to switch off.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> I was hoping this would explain my weight gain but I suppose I have to accept that replacing daily workouts with 3 bowls of ice cream and magic shell may be the culprit.

<comment><USER8> I've piled on the weight since our second was born. I attribute it to the reasons mentioned here and also that I've not been cycling to work for the last several months. We bought a new home and don't currently have a place to store my bike so it's been languishing in my office. So I take the bus because owning two cars is prohibitively expensive here in Europe. The bus is slower than car and bike so I'm rushing out without breakfast and eating junk when I get to work. On the bust home I'll often snack on more junk.

All that changes today as we're finally getting a garden shed and I'll be back in the saddle.

<comment><USER9> always interesting to see the differences in commute times per vehicle. Where I am now, it's just over 7 miles to work, cycling is generally faster than the bus, bus is much faster than car (bus lane for > 50% of the journey).

<comment><USER8> It's been interesting as my commute changed from 7km to 18km to 22km in the last year.

The 7km commute was a no brainer by bike. It took a leisurely 20 minutes where as the car would be much the same with lots of tedious traffic. Bus wasn't an option on this route.

When I changed job my commute was 18km across the city. The car route involved a toll on a congested motorway or through stop start city congestion. The bus route required two buses with various degrees of waiting time made worse on the way home because of the one specific bus I needed that always appears unreliable. The car would take at least one hour bus would take up to two hours and the bike about 50 minutes.

Now that we've moved home I'm even further away but there's a direct express bus that takes just 70 minutes. The car route is better, no toll and better connected, but is still an hour in traffic and the bike is about an hour.

Cycling is great because you arrive to work energised, but it's tough to do everyday and still have energy for the kids at the weekend, so I'll buy an ebike and cheat.

<comment><USER9> lots of ebikes around nowadays. I only get annoyed at them when they pass me going up the harder hills. And that's because I'm jealous of them, not actually annoyed!

our bike club members assure me that an ebike isn't all easy sailing. I believe them! With how heavy the ebikes can be, you can't just be sailing along on the battery, not putting in any effort, and expect to go very far.

<comment><USER10> My parents use ebike to ride 30km with ease. It's a game changer.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> > Women become pregnant before they become mothers. Men become pregnant > _after_ they become fathers.

I heard this joke a while ago, and while cruel seems to have an element of truth to it by observation. Lack of sleep, lack of exercise, less time to make healthy meals seems to be a terrible combination for weight gain.

<comment> keymon-o Good joke!

The experience itself is different. While for women it is more shocking and exciting, men still need to handle their partner and other responsibilities during this period and pretty much share that experience which, as article suggests, alters them both in some ways.

<comment><USER12> > alters them both in some ways.

meh, not really. I don't think you can equate having to walk around mother+baby type stores on your weekend with growing a baby inside you.

Life doesn't change "that" much for fathers during the pregnancy apart from support the mother with the changes she is going through

After the birth, then hold on, the ride is now beginning and everything you ever know is turned upside down

<comment><USER13> >I don't think you can equate

GP is not equating, and explicitly says so in the first real sentence of their post:

>The experience itself is different.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Has there been any studies on adopting a baby? Does it yield the same results on men? If yes, then it might as well be a matter of social construct, where a new vulnerable addition to the group needs protection for example.

Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of adopting a cat or a dog on men's testosterone levels.

<comment> keymon-o I'd guess the idea of this study is not that having a child of your own somehow directly alters your brain biologicaly, but the experience itself is just that intense. I find it much more interesting, the fact that most of the changes mother experiences might not be the "nature's wonder", but lasting, painful, traumatic and exciting experience itself that affects one's brain.

Edit: And that itself has much deeper relation to a biological child than to adopting one. Not that adopting isn't significant or emotional, it's simply not that varying level of experience.

> Another curious question, it would be interesting to see the impact of > adopting a cat or a dog on men's testosterone levels.

I would compare this analogy to the opposite and unfortunate experience like the death of a close one. Losing someone that's biologically linked to you can be really hard even if you weren't that emotionally attached to that person. By comparing that to losing a friend outside of your family circle, which is also a very harsh experience, it seems that biological line would be an emotional line deeply attached to a person no matter what experience one has.

<comment><USER15> > And that itself has much deeper relation to a biological child than to > adopting one. Not that adopting isn't significant or emotional, it's simply > not that varying level of experience.

How do you know your child is actually biologically yours? Human fathers have no biological/natural means of identifying a child as theirs. So your hypothesis that having your own child va adopting is different does not stand. The father - child bond is a mental construct and I see absolutely no reason why adopting is lesser than biologically fathering a child.

<comment><USER16> When conceiving children biologically, if you do not have reason to believe your partner has had sex with other men, the natural assumption is that the child is yours.

Also, family resemblances do exist. Their absence doesn't disprove parentage, but their presence is evidence for it.

When adopting, if you were not sexually active prior to adoption and have not donated sperm, you can be certain the child is not biologically yours. Even if you were active or a donor, you can still be very confident the kid is likely not yours.

I think adoption is a wonderful thing and I am not trying to undercut it, but it seems entirely possible to me that those differences could impact the bond between a father and child.

<comment> keymon-o Exactly. Stating that an adoption is same as having a child of your own, is going against all empirical evidence that a person has great emotional changes upon finding out about your own biological relation to someone. Maybe it is entirely psychological, but idea of a biological relation affects a person a great deal.

I think most of the confusion here is coming from the idea that psychology can't be related to biology. However, I firmly believe that biology is the base of the psychology and you cannot alter psychology without altering the biology itself.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> After becoming father I experienced biggest weight loss ever. I went from 260 lbs to 200 lbs. During the months not being chained to a table with computer I was living healthy life. Lots of time outside with stroller or baby carrier, healthy food for baby and me. Few years later I am at 220 lbs again.

<comment><USER18> That happened with #1. Then #2 came, and the extra time getting both ready meant less time for walks, so I gained it all back!

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> So, reading this thread is making me really not want to have children. Seems like one would have to be completely insane to voluntarily sign up for that.

People that have children. Do you think it was honestly a good idea in retrospect, and if so, why? If your wife had been on the fence about having children, would you have preferred to go child-free, in retrospect?

<comment><USER20> Imagine if you just read about the negatives of Ivy-League schools - <USER2> insane admissions process, the cost, the pressures, the depression, the sleep deprivation, the drug abuse, the suicides, etc. You'd think people must be crazy to go there, yet when you weight it against the benefits, it turns out that basically anyone that can go there, should go there.

I think parenting, like school, is also a very high-effort, high-reward activity. Maybe while the negatives are easy to understand, the rewards are not so easily understood. "Give life to your offspring" just doesn't have the same ring as "make a ton of money" or "become the ruling class".

<comment><USER21> Honestly I've loved every second of it. Granted, Ive only got one, and she's pretty easy going so far and never had problems sleeping the night once she was out of "needs food every 2 hr stage". Yeah, things change, I don't go out to the bars to socialize as much (or at all) any more. Most of my friends don't have kids yet (but some do). Having said that, I need to constantly be "changing" or "growing" in life. There are only so many years I can go drinking with friends every weekend until it gets boring and I need a new adventure in life. I travel less too, but still made it to Europe for a week this year (with baby in tow). Your life doesn't have to stop, but the things you do change. And yeah, I love it. I am also not usually one of the ones that bemoan all the lost sleeep or what have you in comments here. I would imagine I'm not the only one who stays positive.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Weight gain has been the most obvious impact for me, but that's probably a consequence of a collapse in willpower/discipline as a result of sleep deprivation and stress.

</comment><comment> m-i-l Anecdotal I know, but when my first was born and I was outside with them for the first time, I got a weird sense of extreme overprotectiveness - exaggerating somewhat to make the point, but it almost felt like I would punch anyone if they looked vaguely threateningly at my new child (a particularly memorable experience for me because I'm usually such a placid person). Not an expert, but that felt like it could be something hormonal.

And at risk of sounding a bit handwavy, I think I've adapted to being a parent much better than I thought I would, which I guess could be thanks to some biological help.

Also used to look a lot younger than I actually was, and now I look my age or even older, but that could simply be lack of sleep.

<comment><USER23> same ... I'll also add that for a time, I became hyper-aware of literally any noise that happened anywhere in my house at night. Lol, I can't tell you how many times I jumped out of bed to fend off an imagined intruder, or to run into the baby's room to make sure she was still breathing :P

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> I am 14 months into kid #1. I've observed friends and family who are well into kid #2.

My thought process was that going from 1 to 2 was going to follow some sort of logarithmic increase in complexity - but I am now convinced that the change is exponential.

With 1, you can split the work. With 2, the dad will probably be focused on the older kid and the mom on the younger kid. Thus, there is less help to go around.

Maybe at #3 there is some sort of loop-back effect where the older kid can help out with the younger siblings?

Anyone with more experience care to opine?

<comment><USER25> > logarithmic increase in complexity - but I am now convinced that the change > is exponential.

Good god. Is everything a math problem for you people?

It's called 'figuring life out'. Sometimes there's not a 'logarithmic increase in complexity'. You just wing it. And you figure it out.

<comment><USER26> If we did that, 90% of HN articles wouldn't exist.

Though I am glad someone has similar thoughts as me!

~ Cheers

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> >2014, Dr. Pilyoung Kim, Ph.D., a developmental neuroscientist at The University of Denver, put 16 new dads into an M.R.I. machine: once between the first two to four weeks of their baby's life, and again between 12 and 16 weeks

16 examples -> I would set more store by tealeaf reading.

<comment><USER28> Underrated comment. Especially with a technique like fMRI.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> I can still remember "feeling" the change in everyday thought process once my 1st was born.

It was so noticeable... like I'd just stepped into someone else's brain. really weird.

<comment><USER30> Are you able to elaborate?

<comment><USER29> Its hard to do so.

It felt like a mental "click" but not like you get when you have been trying to solve a puzzle... it felt like a mental " gear change ".

My thought processes changed order or priority, Things that I felt were important before were suddenly less important and I think I things from a different angle (not just life stuff but problem solving approaches.).

its really hard to describe.

What I can say is that having a second didnt do a damned thing... lol whatever change was going to happen only happened on the first.

<comment><USER31> Do you mean like parental instinct? When you are in 'father mode', you physically and mentally geared up and ready to take up the role.

<comment><USER29> My first thoughts were that it was like that, but I realized after a few weeks that I was thinking like that at work as well, when nowhere near the kid.

<comment><USER31> I think you may have got better at managing both your tasks and time :)

Very possible that been a father cornered you to think more pragmatically in daily life, and that translates to how you do things at work.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER32> "a widespread and deeply ingrained belief among fathers: that because their bodies haven't undergone the myriad biological changes associated with pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding, they're not as biologically and psychologically "primed" for caretaking as women are."

I doubt that this concern is "widespread". Sounds like the author creating unnecessary urgency for an already interesting topic.

<comment><USER33> Really? To me, that seems as obvious a majority thought as the more general "women are more child-oriented than men".

<comment><USER32> I didn't lactate and therefore I'm not as psyched to be a dad? I've never seen (nor felt) any such phenomenon.

<comment><USER34> I'm female and have never wanted children. I never want to be pregnant. I'm 41, and have no children.

But I have had folks try to make me feel like I*m doing something wrong for not wanting children - both men and women. Apprently, that's what I'm supposed to want.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER35> "University in Israel suggested that the parts of the brain that light up the most are startlingly different for each parent."

Startlingly? Almost like every person was different..

<comment><USER36> 'each' here is bound to a specific instance of a pair of parents - i.e. "... are startling different for the mother and the father"

English is not a good language

<comment><USER37> This is a problem with how its written, not an entire formalized language.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> I've got Tinnitus. I should have used ear plugs or rather a heavy duty hearing protection much earlier.

My daughter had problems with her stomach or with us trying to put some clothes on her. The scream amplitude and frequency in a small bathroom are a horrendous combination.

I joked at the time that she sounded like Nazgûl.

<comment><USER39> Our youngest daughter screamed something terrible for months and months when she was a baby. There was a period of maybe two months where I thought I had permanent hearing loss from it.

Went to the doctor and turned out that I had a cold as some point and the pressure in my ear never equalized back correctly, which meant the ear drum couldn't vibrate right. A couple weeks of allergy medicine seemed to fix the issue.

Around that time though, I bought a pair of ear muffs and wore them every time I had to put her to bed or change her diaper. Amazing. Highly recommended.

</comment></comment><comment><USER40> [https://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones- behavior](https://nobaproject.com/modules/hormones-behavior) here it says that a change in hormone levels can trigger a change in behaviour, but on the other hand it can be the result of changed behaviour. For me as a laymen it is not clear how to read all this.

</comment><comment><USER41> Interesting article.

1\. It doesn't mention obvious potential causes to brain changes and hormone levels that coincide with having children like lack of sleep, changes to diet, or adjustments to work patterns etc.

2\. It says towards the end that I should continue to wrestle the boys. Great!

</comment><comment><USER42> Father of 5 here, during first 2 I was right there, gained a lot of weight slowly but identical twins @ 43 I am surprised there had actually been a weight drop.

It has been amazingly difficult with twins, for the first 6 months it was pure hell. I didn't really sugarcoat it when people asked, yes it's hell, no it's not fun. People were much more understanding of the my sour attitude with twins.

Many people both get up as a sign of support but yea it's stupid, after some time we found that taking turns getting up has allowed the other to get some sleep, surprised we didn't get any guidance from the hospital on this subject at all while at the hospital.

</comment><comment><USER43> "Certain areas within parts of the brain linked to attachment, nurturing, empathy and the ability to interpret and react appropriately to a baby's behavior had more gray and white matter between 12 and 16 weeks than they did between two and four weeks."

For you father-programmers out there: did you notice any changes in your programming/work abilities around the 12-16 week mark?

<comment><USER44> I always took off 3 months from work per baby. There's no point coding when you're always sleep deprived. Last year the company agreed to about half the salary, so I'd work from home on some things, or come in half the week or half a day as needed.

Then again I did notice I was very good at understanding baby talk.

Taking from some old notes of my 5 month old baby:

"eh eh eh", but no crying at 6 AM = "I need a diaper change" or "I'm hungry"

rapid kicking = excited

wide open arms while lying down = "pick me up"

"uh huh/mmm" with slight head inclining = yes.

when mother is saying something, baby laughs, turns head towards me, "uh huh/mmm" with inclined head = "mother is right" or "I told you so"

laughing and turning away = "I like that"

licking lips = "I want to eat whatever you're eating"

"aaaaaaaaaaa" = conversation or song

long, drawn out, angry crying = "I'm tired and I don't know how to sleep"

<comment><USER45> You could extrapolate that into an app. :-)

But seriously, congratulations on getting to that level of bonding with child. It was also the same for me and it is magical!

<comment><USER44> It's quite different to the first kid so I don't think the same translations work with most other kids.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER46> This has been a very useful thread.I have struggled with weight for many years. I have sufficient motivation to exercise and I am normally able to keep a disciplined schedule. But with our 2yr old daughter, sleeplessness has kind of messed me up and I struggle to keep any form of discipline now. It's hard. I am just glad to know that I am far from the only one :)

<comment><USER47> Exercise helps a bit with weight, but the overwhelming factor in weight loss/gain is the amount of calories ingested.

</comment></comment><comment><USER48> Maybe it's just my biology training, but that was obvious to me decades ago. I mean, why should humans be different from other mammals, regarding such a basic thing?

It's also part of why I never wanted kids. That, and the threat of global nuclear war.

</comment><comment><USER49> my changes:

o hair loss (Eldest's birth and early life was traumatic)

o Loss of short term memory (mostly temporary, sleep loss related.)

o loss of hearing (eldest was fond of screaming)

o grey hair.

We split child care into two shifts. I took nights, wife took days. Hence why I had less sleep than the wife.

<comment><USER50> It seems unlikely that a child could scream loud enough to cause significant hearing loss.

<comment><USER49> Babies can scream at 120db. (supposedly 130, but I find that hard to believe)

not only that its at about 3.5khz. now look at this graph: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal- loudness_contour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour)

Right in the loudness contour.

children, less so, babies yes.

number two is nowhere near as loud or as prone to screaming

<comment><USER25> > Babies can scream at 120db. (supposedly 130, but I find that hard to > believe)

That sounds absolutely terrible. I am not looking forward to having a kid. :-(

<comment><USER49> ahhh You'll do fine.

I was unlucky, I had a screamy one. The second child barely cries at all.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER51> No study that relies on self reporting can be trusted.

</comment><comment><USER18> Honestly, the dopamine rush that I feel when I rock my kids is stronger than a cup of coffee.

</comment><comment><USER52> Random Q: I have to lose 40 lbs getting dad-bod sans dadness right now (medication side-effects).

0\. Has anyone seriously looked into variations of intermittent fasting &| extended fasting?

1\. Did you have brain fog after hunger went away after a few days, or less fog?

2\. What about maintenance vitamins, electrolytes and preventing gallstones?

3\. How long did you continue for, until hunger returned?

<comment><USER53> Most reliable method in my own experience: simply eat less.

Eat your normal amount of meals, shovel it in your mouth, but stop before finishing the whole portion. I eat maybe 75% of each meals and toss the remaining bits. Do it for a couple months and watch the weight magically shed off.

It works because it requires no change in meal-type habits; it's simply fewer calories. End of the day, that's always the goal and this way is the most direct and simple

When the meals come where it's hard to stop at 75%, I force myself to toss my napkin and utensils on the plate ensuring the food is now "dirty". So altogether, it's very few behavior changes make for a foolproof method.

<comment><USER54> Can't you just serve yourself less food rather than deliberately wasting a quarter of it?

<comment><USER55> It is quite rational but it's difficult to be rational when you're hungry; it's easier to cut on food when you have calm down your stomach. Like don't go shopping when hungry, you will buy more unhealthy food.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER56> I'm curious what the relation between child-rearing and balding might be, if any. The old-wives tale is that men needed to be evolutionarily "pushed" to settle down, and actually take care of their kids. I would think a drop in testosterone would actually have the reverse effect though, and reduce balding for those susceptible to dht.

<comment><USER57> What does balding have to do with settling down? Women really don't seem to care nearly as much as men do...

<comment><USER58> That has not been my experience. During my dating period (about 5 years ago) I was regularly told that my full head of hair was a pre. Though there could be bias there since the ones who care obviously were more likely to seek me out.

<comment><USER59> My experience is that women - like men - have preconceived notions of attraction that are easily circumvented, to make you more overall attractive _enough_.

Full head of hair is a qualifier, without it different things are needed to get yourself an in. The same logic goes for many attributes are considered qualifiers that aren't.

Yes, there are some men that expend very low energy and have women seemingly flock to them. I've seen bald men in this circumstance, and full haired men in this circumstance, I would say it is a very low weighting on anything.

Bald _ing_ though seems to function different than bald.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER60> I am sure the author means well. However, this makes little sense from an evolutionary standpoint. Although humans have evolved far more than most animals on this planet, the basic idea of evolutionary biology remains the same. In the wild, males have to hunt (provide food), protect the new born(s) and their mate(s) from threats. Therefore having the same level or higher levels of Testosterone is a biological imperative. Testosterone makes the male stronger and more aggressive. Both are very useful traits from an evolutionary standpoint. I cannot imagine human males diverging too much from this basic framework.

Coming to today's workplace, after childbirth there is a drop in productivity of male employees as they adjust to their new reality. However, I have observed men become more diligent and aggressive at their jobs. I only imagine thats because they have a stronger sense of responsibility to provide for their partner & offspring. Whether or not Testosterone levels change is a different matter.

<comment><USER61> >this makes little sense from an evolutionary standpoint

I am certainly no expert on this area but it sounds to me like you are concluding that the study must be invalid, based on a bit of armchair science.

<comment><USER60> The ideas I have presented are not 'armchair science'. They're widely accepted in the field of evolutionary biology.

<comment><USER62> Evopsych explanations can often be used to argue both sides of any issue. For example, T is implicated in male aggression, which is useful when fending off predators both animal and human, but dangerous when you have a helpless, often _extremely_ irritating Bundle of Evolutionary Fitness around. T is also thought to be involved in mate-seeking behaviour, which one may wish to downregulate for a while after successfully reproducing in order to devote resources to infant survival. Testosterone is also metabolically expensive, and those costs may be paid at the expense of the immune system. It might be advantageous to upregulate immune functions when an immuno-compromised neonate is around. You and the author could both be correct, but neglect important components of the testosterone fitness package.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


BMW's New Electric Car Is Just Like a Tesla, Only Much, Much Worse - <AUTHOR> http://slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/07/29/bmw_i3_review_electric_car_is_a_cheap_ugly_tesla_model_s_with_an_suv_on.html

<comment><USER2> What the hell is wrong with media sources like this? The writer admits in the first paragraph that he hasn't even test-driven the car, yet proceeds to give something resembling an authoritative review of what the car is apparently like.

I've got no special affinity for BMW, Tesla, electric cars, or Slate in particular, but the fact that nonsense like this even gets published just boggles my mind. Terrible.</comment>


Sweden Caught Censoring the Internet 1984 Style - <AUTHOR> http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/01/29/sweden-caught-censoring-the-internet-1984-style/ <comment><USER2> I can confirm that I can't reach any of those articles from Sweden, where I live. But these news are in no way being suppressed, most in Sweden knows of the social worker who was killed. And media frequently discuss the conditions in these migrant centers. It also appears that not all articles are blocked, I can for example reach [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden- asylu...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3416343/Sweden-asylum- worker-22-stabbed-death-frenzied-attack-CHILD-migrant-centre-refugee- boy-15-arrested-murder.html) from Sweden.

Still, this is both strange and unsettling.

</comment><comment><USER3> Since the response still seems to originate from dailymail.co.uk the censoring seems to happen on their end?</comment>


Time to Cancel Your Pledge: Zach Braff Kickstarter Movie Gets Financing - <AUTHOR> http://www.filmschoolrejects.com/news/time-to-cancel-your-pledge-zach-braff-kickstarter-movie-gets-financing-from-worldview-entertainment.php <comment><USER2> If you are donating, then you are putting your trust into Zach Braff and his judgement to create the movie. If you don't trust his judgement, including on where/how he accepts money, then maybe you should not be donating at all.

<comment> qu4z-2 Isn't that what the headline is suggesting? :P</comment></comment>


Rob Pike's Fantastic Intro to Upspin - <AUTHOR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H74R1eNsAHY <comment><USER2> The description of the video is sparse. Here's some more info I found:

[https://github.com/upspin/upspin](https://github.com/upspin/upspin)

[https://upspin.io/](https://upspin.io/)

Upspin is an experimental project to build a framework for naming and sharing files and other data securely, uniformly, and globally: a global name system of sorts.

Addressing common issues:

* download a file just to upload to another device?

* download a file from one web service just to upload to another?

* make a file public just to share it with one person?

* accidentally make something visible to the wrong people?

</comment><comment><USER3> The audio quality isn't good. I think non-native English speakers (like me) will have a harded time understanding this.

But I wish I could.

<comment><AUTHOR> The subtitles work surprisingly well - also I'll get some audio equipment for next time

<comment><USER3> My speakers are horrible also. I'll try again using headphones.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> Is anyone using Upspin for anything?</comment>


Ask HN: How does one get into the hacker community? - <AUTHOR>

I started my first job as a software engineering working for a company (in Seattle - just moved here). But I want to actively learn and grow outside of work as well. I also want to network with like minded, hacker folks from outside my company. How do I go about finding other hackers?<p>Thanks <comment><USER2> Welcome to Seattle! You picked a kind of crappy weekend[1] to join in here, but I promise the summers are worth it!

Are you living in Seattle proper, or on the East Side? I can't speak for activities in Bellevue, Kirkland or Redmond, but over here, there's quite a bit that you may find to be of interest.

* Beer and Code - regular meetups around the city where you BYOB, meet interesting folks, and hack on projects. I've occasionally attended the one on Capitol Hill, and had a lovely time. <http://seattle.beerandcode.org/>

* Metrix Create:Space is a sort of electronics workshop/hang space for hackerish types here on Capitol Hill. They're open til midnight every night. <http://metrixcreatespace.com/>

* Seattle.rb has a regular Tuesday night meetup at Vivace, just a couple blocks south of Metrix. <http://www.seattlerb.org/>

* Xcoders has a regular Tuesday night meetup at Wayward Coffee, and less frequent tech talks that move around. <http://seattlexcoders.org/>

* There's a Rails meetup at Cafe Racer every Monday. [http://www.meetup.com/The-Seattle-Ruby-on-Rails-Developers-M...](http://www.meetup.com/The-Seattle-Ruby-on-Rails-Developers-Meetup-Group/)

* The Seattle Android Developers meetup happens at F5 Networks on a semi-regular basis. <http://www.meetup.com/Seattle-Android-Developers/>

[1] [http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2012/03/major-coastal- storm.ht...](http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2012/03/major-coastal-storm.html)

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks a lot for the welcome. Those are great links. I live in Capitol Hill and I am within bussing / walking distance to some of those locations. I think this will be a great start.

I don't mind working with someone on their side projects to start gaining experience. Do you think the BYOB meetups would be a good place to find someone who could use more parallel keystrokes?

<comment><USER3> Hi there. I help organize the Beer && Code events, and ours is definitely a great way to a) meet like-minded programmers b) make time to learn a new language or hack on a side project.

We do see some collaboration happening at Beer && Code, and I wish there were more. The best way to get in on a side project is to go to the events and meet people. If they seem cool and you find your styles are similar, find out what they're hacking on and fork it if it is on GitHub.

To get you started, feel free to hack on any of my projects at <https://github.com/TheDahv>. I like collaboration and I feel like I learn more from it.

Finally, in case there is any confusion, Beer && Code meets in both Cap Hill and in SLU on an alternating, every other week basis. Tonight's is in SLU and it would be a great opportunity to experience the entrepreneurial vibe going on there.

Hope that helps!</comment></comment></comment>


Yahoo 'to buy Tumblr for $1.1bn' - <AUTHOR> http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-22591026

<comment><USER2> Existing HN discussion thread: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5733296>

</comment><comment><USER3> Well, there goes that service.

</comment><comment><USER4> This just in: Internet giant purchases consumer web app with no revenue streams and no profits.

Swear I've read this story a hundred times in the last decade. Has there been a single acquisition of this nature which has resulted in a profitable outcome for anyone, except for the VCs?

<comment><USER5> YouTube?

<comment><USER6> Do you think youtube's profits have paid for the initial purchase price and the losses it ran for the first few years?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Yahoo could have spent that billion creating their own. Their comment boards are very popular. Great deal though. Hopefully it doesn't turn into a big flop with major purchases like many other companies have gone through.

<comment><USER8> They could have, but why spend a year doing it and hoping people will use it? Why go through the trouble of figuring out all the things Tumblr already did while they did it?

Easier, cheaper and faster to buy it than build it.

<comment><USER9> I'm not sure it's cheaper in this case.</comment></comment></comment>


Dear Jeff Bezos, instead of firing me, protect your workers from coronavirus - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/02/dear-jeff-bezos-amazon-instead-of-firing-me-protect-your-workers-from-coronavirus <comment><USER3> I strongly sympathize with the Amazon workers. The real problem is that this isn't the first time Amazon has been in the spotlight for worker conditions (there's even a pretty shocking documentary on the subject) and nothing sensible has ever come from it. Amazon continues to exploit humans who have few other choices, and will continue to get away with it.

This whole situation is a really good example of why worker's unions must exist.

<comment><USER4> And here is one reason why they should not exist:

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/oregons-coronavirus- education-l...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/oregons-coronavirus-education- lockdown-11585697080)

The Oregon teachers union is blocking student transfers to online charter schools for fear that the students will remain in the charter schools and won't return to public school next year.

It would be much better if we instead broke down the barriers to moving between jobs like portable healthcare benefits so companies have no leverage to keep employees around and employees can easily change employers if the employer doesn't treat employees fairly.

<comment><USER5> I don't understand this reasoning.

I could point to all kinds of wrongdoing by corporations. Does that means corporations shouldn't exist?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I don't understand what is expected here. Nobody can get masks or sanitizer. What little there is is getting redirected to hospitals. It's not even a money thing.

This person is advocating boycotting Amazon and going to local grocery stores instead. What the hell? How is that better?

<comment><USER7> You can't get blood from a stone.

This reminds me of a class of housing advocates who insist a higher minimum wage or rent control will solve housing problems. No, you still have 1 unit for 1.x people; the overriding issue is supply.

<comment><USER8> > This reminds me of a class of housing advocates who insist a higher minimum > wage or rent control will solve housing problems. No, you still have 1 unit > for 1.x people; the overriding issue is supply.

As someone who lives in a housing market where at least 30% of houses + apartments are sitting empty for months/years because their owner is being irrational (i.e. unwilling to drop to a market-clearing price), "rent control" (in the form of not just preventing rents from rising, but also capping the _initial_ lease price landlords are able to ask for) would fix a lot of things.

Of course, anyone who thought the new rules would mean they could no longer profit in the market could get out of the market, selling off their real- estate assets. There'd be no limit on purchase prices for ownership transfer. But, of course, without the hyper-inflated (even though illiquid!) rental income, the units would be inherently less valuable, so they'd lose resale value, too.

<comment><USER9> _> "rent control" (in the form of not just preventing rents from rising, but also capping the initial lease price landlords are able to ask for) would fix a lot of things._

Why would this stop houses from being left empty? It seems a better idea for stopping housing being left empty is to heavily tax houses which are left empty.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Recently they forbidden workers in Amazon warehouse in Poland to wear their own masks.

Amazon isn't that big in Poland (most people buy on home-grown allegro or chinese alliexpress) so nobody will cry if they go under. It seems every month there's a story about these warehouses. It quickly becomes the stereotypical worst place to work.

<comment><USER11> So even if an employee has a mask of their own they're not permitted to bring it and wear it while they're working? That makes absolutely no sense. Has Amazon offered any sort of explanation for why they wouldn't allow it?

<comment><USER10> "Not to spread panic"

[https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...](https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwiadomosci.onet.pl%2Fkraj%2Fpracownicy- amazona-po-tekscie-onetu-nie-mozemy-pracowac-w-maskach-zeby-nie- wywolywac%2F4p2fcdw)

> One of the messages from Amazon employees concerned wearing masks in > warehouses. According to the man who wrote to us, employees are prohibited > from using them. Why? - Not to spread panic - he explains in an interview > with Onet. - These are the top-down guidelines. The exception is a lady from > a medical point, she alone can have a mask.

> Onet's interlocutor also said that until two weeks ago Amazon workers were > also forbidden to wear gloves. - It has now been lifted. People can work in > gloves, but only material ones, not rubber one. Why is it like that? I have > no idea - says an Amazon employee.

<comment><USER12> Spread covid, not panic?

<comment><USER13> Welcome to message control and public relations. It's what we worry about now, and it's what we do as a society/species.

In my opinion, perception management is more important than content and substance for 99.9% of companies and executives.

This is the thing causing most problems in society today, in my personal opinion.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> We have been wiping down and sanitizing any packages and contents that come to our door. Never assume someone else is doing the right thing, just like why you still look even when the light is green.

<comment><USER15> COVID-19 can live on cardboard for up to 24 hours, 3 days on plastic. I would suggest using gloves (if available) to open the package, have someone else remove contents, and then with gloves still on, dispose of the box in a container of some sort (garbage bag, etc). Wash hands after all contact with incoming material.

EDIT: Washing your hands well is probably sufficient; excuse my paranoia suggesting gloves, extraordinary times.

<comment><USER16> According to a German virologist that was interviewed a few days ago they extensively took samples from houses of highly infectious people and couldn't get any of it to grow in vivo. Are there any cases were we know of surface transmission?

Because from what I have read that is extremely unlikely.

<comment><USER15> WHO, NIH, CDC (google for citations) are stating surface transmission is possible. I have no reason or authority to state otherwise.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Oddly in the UK we are getting all our groceries delivered and left on the doorstep. In New Zealand they have been stopped from having groceries delivered in case people touch them and told to go get them from the store themselves. I wonder who is right.

<comment><USER9> There are going to be many excellent comparative epidemiology studies when this is over, comparing the approaches of different countries and what worked and what didn't.

<comment><USER13> Honestly, if we all survive this, the new knowledge base we're about to have is going to be astounding. So that's one good thing, I guess.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> Why didn't he just mail Jeff on his Amazon mail. He normally response within an hour.

</comment><comment><USER19> The amount of people trying to defend Amazon in this is absolutely staggering. The amount of people trying to protect what Amazon stands for is revolting. If you are one of these kinds of people you should know that you are the enemy of treating people humanely.

<comment><USER20> > you are the enemy of treating people humanely

As opposed to, what - exactly? This is quite a forced dichotomy you are presenting here, and I really don't think it is helpful, nor informative. I would expect this kind of commentary on Twitter, but I would have had a higher standard for HN.

Twitter makes money off of lighting fires under its users' asses, as does much of the media today. What you are doing here is trying to protect what THESE companies stand for. I find that to be much more revolting than those who are defending Amazon.

<comment><USER21> > As opposed to, what - exactly?

Putting profits over people. Which is what capitalism, and as a result, American corporations end up idealizing.

You really think Bezos gives a shit about some warehouse worker? Over generating more profit so he can be richer? I've got news for you bud.

> I really don't think it is helpful, nor informative

Only if you want to protect monied interests, or you're one of those temporarily embarrassed billionaires...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> PPE is very hard to get right now and obviously it is not possible to protect everyone perfectly. Demanding change without a solution is not reasonable. Nor is it reasonable to expect things to be perfect in a difficult/fast-moving situation, with various constraints like limited supply chains and inability to alter physical spaces significantly in warehouses. I for one am very happy that online shopping is available, since it enables social distancing more broadly. Amazon also seems to have made a large number of changes, and the evidence is that they've been doing so for weeks, well before recent news media focus on them.

See [https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/02/amazon-begins-running- temp...](https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/02/amazon-begins-running-temperature- checks-and-will-provide-surgical-masks-at-warehouses/)

> Employees will also be provided with surgical masks starting next week, the > company says, once it receives shipments of orders of "millions" placed a > few weeks ago.

From [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon- memo...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/5dm8bx/leaked-amazon-memo-details- plan-to-smear-fired-warehouse-organizer-hes-not-smart-or-articulate)

> Zapolsky's notes imply the company's attempts to purchase N95 masks from > China fell through. "China has deemed N95 masks as 'strategic,'" Zapolsky > wrote. "They're keeping them for optionality. They also want to use them for > 'diplomacy.' The masks in China that we thought we had probably got > redirected by profiteers."

And [https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-warehouse-essential- goods...](https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-warehouse-essential-goods-only/) for changes to stock essential goods.

> "We are seeing increased online shopping, and as a result some products such > as household staples and medical supplies are out of stock," reads an > announcement on Amazon's official forum for sellers. "With this in mind, we > are temporarily prioritizing household staples, medical supplies, and other > high-demand products coming into our fulfillment centers so that we can more > quickly receive, restock, and deliver these products to customers."

And [https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-from- amazon...](https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-from-amazons- operations-network)

> To date, we've made over 150 significant process changes to ensure the > health and safety of our teams. We've shared details on the safety > precautions we've taken to date on the Day One Blog, and today, I want to > give an update.

> Disinfectant wipes and hand sanitizer are already standard across our > network, and the procurement teams have worked tirelessly to create new > sources of supply to keep these critical items flowing. The millions of > masks we ordered weeks ago are now arriving, and we're distributing them to > our teams as quickly as possible. Masks will be available as soon as today > in some locations and in all locations by early next week. Any N-95 masks we > receive we are either donating to healthcare workers on the front lines or > making them available through Amazon Business to healthcare and government > organizations at cost.

> We're conducting daily audits of the new health and safety measures we've > put into place. We've shared some of the photos of these measures here. We > also assigned some of our top machine learning technologists to capture > opportunities to improve social distancing in our buildings using our > internal camera systems. With over 1,000 sites around the world, and so many > measures and precautions rapidly rolled out over the past several weeks, > there may be instances where we don't get it perfect, but I can assure you > that's just what they'll be—exceptions.

> Finally, I can't stress enough how much I appreciate our teams for serving > their communities. If someone would rather not come to work, we are > supporting them in their time off. If someone is diagnosed or comes to us > who is presumptively diagnosed (but unable to get a test), we are giving > them extra paid time off. In addition, we are also contacting people who > have been in close contact with a diagnosed individual and giving them time > off as well, for 14 days, to stay home with pay.

There's even more that Amazon has done in response to COVID-19 at [https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazons-actions- to...](https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazons-actions-to-help- employees-communities-and-customers-affected-by-covid-19). I really don't get what all the outrage is about. It seems like a manufactured crisis, amplified by a series of biased news outlets, in order to push a narrative against big corporations, presumably in favor of unionization.

<comment><USER23> > PPE is very hard to get right now and obviously it is not possible to > protect everyone perfectly. Demanding change without a solution is not > reasonable. Nor is it reasonable to expect things to be perfect in a > difficult/fast-moving situation, with various constraints like limited > supply chains and inability to alter physical spaces significantly in > warehouses.

"PPE is very hard to get right now" is one thing but the workers are complaining about stuff like not even having access to hand sanitizer. That's basic shit. If you can't get your employees a way to properly wash their hands you shouldn't be operating a business during a pandemic. I don't care whether it's because costs have climbed or you made an oopsie, if your facilities don't have essentials like:

running water + soap so people can wash their hands

usable toilets

central heat/air so that employees don't overheat or freeze

Then you're not prepared to operate them. Amazon is not some small business. They have billions of dollars at their disposal that they could have been using to prepare for an epidemic - basically an absolute certainty that one would eventually impact local amazon fulfillment centers, sooner or later - <USER2> stocking basic stuff like soap, gloves, etc. Arguably they should have been keeping those stocked and available for day-to-day business, but whatever. Incidentally I mentioned heat/air there because people getting sick from overheating inside Amazon warehouses is a common occurrence. These facilities are not well-run.

There are many other complaints in the article that are not addressed by your defense here. How is "you're making sick people work overtime during a pandemic" a manufactured crisis? Do you really think that's a good business strategy and something workers should be okay with?

Sure maybe they can't get their employees n95 masks or even surgical masks. Aside from that they had plenty of opportunities to build a stockpile of that stuff in advance - if they didn't then yes, they can't exactly just bring in a truck full of them tomorrow. Sure. But does that mean it's okay that it took them _weeks_ to quarantine a couple of union organizers after exposure to an infected employee? If Amazon is doing such a good job why weren't the infected employee's interactions tracked immediately and responded to by quarantining all employees who made contact with them right away?

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Huge indictment of capitalism that we have an unbelievably high level of productive capacity and can't do any of these things: make hospital equipment including ventilators; produce enough masks; keep hospitals open (there has been a steady trend of closures brought on by financialization (profiteering) and mergers); train adequate numbers of hospital staff; and the most ridiculous so far is every business is desperately trying to stay open even for non-essential things, like Amazon.

Profiteering is undercutting every possible thing. The profit motive over a democratically planned economy is horrible most of the time but really becomes a mess in a crisis.

<comment><USER25> You might want to make your comment again without using the phrase "planned economy". It doesn't matter that you're probably using it to mean "an economy under the active influence of a government through large work orders in response to a crisis"; many economically versed individuals will take a gigantic dump on you regardless because they figure you're dog-whistling communism, intentionally or not.

Just figured you may want to know, because you have a decent point.

<comment><USER26> >economically versed individuals

Economically versed individuals would agree with the parent comment, not yours.</comment></comment></comment>


Git: A Nightmare of Mixed Metaphors - <AUTHOR> https://ventrellathing.wordpress.com/2013/01/25/git-a-nightmare-of-mixed-metaphors/ <comment><USER2> TLDR version: The author thought Git was hard. Git would be better if learning it was easier for people in general, and the post's author in particular. This is unquestionably true.

As a guide to understanding Git, the article fails; he mentions many git terms, but doesn't explain any of them. As a guide to others' guides to understanding git, it only mentions one: Mark Lodato's "visual git guide" [1]. There are many, many other tools and guides for learning and enhancing git. One of the blog's commenters mentioned Legit [2], which the blog post's author may personally find useful.

Offering a constructive means to improve Git is the best non-obvious point an article like this can make, but the author doesn't make it: I came away from this article unsure what, if anything, he's advocating for improvement. Better documentation? A better set of commands? A better set of metaphors? A higher- level wrapper? Better GUI tools? More features in web UI's like Github [3] or Gitlab [4] [5]? A complete switch to some other current or future version control system?

To be fair, he does mention a couple of these concepts in passing. But the best way he could help improve the situation is by engaging with them head-on, giving developers something actionable -- working code would be best, but a sketch of a GUI, a spec for a new command-line interface, or an explanation of an improved metaphor for a particularly confusing git concept would also encourage productive discussion. (I don't think much of his advice to "Let people who never learned to program write the next great version control system" (paraphrased) as something that's advisable or even possible.)

[1] <http://marklodato.github.com/visual-git-guide/index-en.html>

[2] <http://www.git-legit.org/>

[3] <https://github.com>

[4] <http://gitlab.org/>

[5] <https://github.com/gitlabhq/gitlabhq>

<comment><USER3> Disagree. Its ok to point out the emperor has no clothes, without offering a working loom and spinning wheel.

<comment><USER4> Looks fully clothed to me. Imagining him naked?

<comment><USER3> Yeah, well, read the article - the guy is mentioning the Git has a steeper learning curve than most tools. Terminology is pointlessly complex. That its unnecessary. Seeing some skin?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I'm not sure the mixed metaphors are a problem. Cherry picking and pulling from upstream both make sense, and understanding one doesn't interfere with the other. I also doubt there's any set of metaphors you could come up with that would have the kind of consistency required by the author. I am typing this in a box on a page in a window on a desktop on a notebook, and it doesn't seem to bother me.

</comment><comment><USER4> The only thing remarkable about this blog is how completely unremarkable the concepts chosen by the author really are. Let's go through them:

 _fetch_ \- fetching the objects and metadata from a branch or branches from a remote repository

 _pulling from upstream_ \- fetching from a remote repository (upstream, in other words all the changes flow down the stream to you, colloquial expression), then merge in the objects you fetched

 _cherry pick_ \- choose which changes to apply ("cherry pick" them, colloquial term)

 _filter branch_ \- modify a branch's history via filters

 _untracked_ \- files that aren't being tracked by the _source control system_

 _symlink_ \- a symbolic link, not even a git concept.

 _rebase_ \- replaying all the changes committed from one branch onto another. Literally taking one base, and changing the base of a branch. i.e. re-basing the branch

 _tag_ \- marking (or "tagging") a significant change in the repository

 _HEAD, head (note, mentioned twice by author)_ \- a reference to the head of the revision history

 _working copy_ \- the copy of a branch that you work on

 _path_ \- really?

 _stash_ \- you start working on some code, then you realise you want to change to another branch. So you stash away the working copy for later.

 _clone_ \- cloning an existing repository so you can have your own to work on. That's why it's a DVCS

 _submodule_ \- an external project from the main repository

 _fast-forward_ \- when you merge a branch from another branch, git has the ability to forward the revision pointer quickly to the right point, see [1]

 _merge_ \- merging changes

 _origin/master_ \- the original repository. Convention.

 _staging area_ \- also known as the "index", basically the concept is that you checkout a branch into a directory (called the working copy, see above), then you commit any changes into a staging area, then you push the changes into the repository

See? none of this was particularly hard to understand (although I grant you that "rebasing" and "fast forward" is a tricky concept, but hey, it's a source control system)

[1] [http://git-scm.com/book/en/Git-Branching-Basic-Branching- and...](http://git-scm.com/book/en/Git-Branching-Basic-Branching-and-Merging)

<comment><USER3> It all goes under the column labelled "Lore of the Jungle". Other tools have regular terminology; GIT seems to have grown its own language.

<comment><USER4> Half of that IS regular terminology. The test of the terms - there's no equivalent.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> To paraphrase Linus: Mercurial is the only sane choice.</comment>


Show HN: Identify mushrooms from pictures - <AUTHOR> http://champignouf.com <comment><USER2> I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, but maybe you should have some sort of disclaimer: "not responsible for accidentally identifying death caps as chantarelles."

<comment><USER3> I'm going to tell you how to live your life, please put up a disclaimer.

This is the first example I've ever seen of an image classifier that could kill someone if it makes a mistake.

You may also want to consider listing all percentages and classification types, instead of just the highest match (if you don't do this yet).

<comment><USER4> I pivoted my idea on an allergen identification system after hearing the same thing from people on HN.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14637584](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14637584)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I would use a similar app for something inconsequential, like bird voices. However, mushrooms are often identified to determine whether they can be eaten. The penalty for mistake may be death. So I think I'll pass.

For the record, I've uploaded a picture of an aardvark: """I think it's: Panaeolus acuminatus Or perhaps Psilocybe zapotecorum , Coprinopsis variegata , Hygrocybe singeri , or coprinellus sect micacei or something totally different!"""

I think it's trying too hard.

</comment><comment><USER6> I uploaded a picture of Lactarius indigo, one of the safest mushrooms to eat because it pretty much doesn't look like any other type of mushroom. (The trade-off for this certainty is that it is pretty bland tasting.) It is very difficult for a human to misidentify it. The results are below:

 _I think it 's: Laccaria amethystina_

 _Or perhaps Russula cyanoxantha , Lactarius indigo , cortinarius iodes , or Cortinarius alboviolaceus_

So, the right ID is in the list, but it's not the #1 guess. This could be useful for trained mushroom hunters who just want to narrow down the possibilities to check up on. I definitely would not trust an amateur with it though!

</comment><comment><AUTHOR> OP here. It knows more than 500 species, results range from terrible to ok, but I will work on improving that, and add more information about each mushroom (like species that look alike but are not edible). Nobody should use it to know if a mushroom is safe to eat anyway, probably I'll add even more warnings as it may not be obvious enough.

<comment><USER7> If you know which are unsafe, you could have a threshold confidence, say the algorithm classifies one as shiitake with 90% probability but some unsafe mushroom at >40% probability (or some percentage that makes sense), it could say, "looks like this is a shiitake, but careful it could be <unsafe mushroom>, here's some pictures and info about <unsafe mushroom>."

<comment><USER8> Yeah, really the chief use for an app like this would probably wind up as, _how confident are you that this mushroom will not kill me_ which is a slightly different problem.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'm no mycologist, but for an accurate identification of mushrooms often spore prints are needed. Also the color and shape can vary wildly over a few days, which makes this more tricky than a typical visual classification problem.

</comment><comment><USER10> Are you working with or have you considered working with the folk at mushroomobserver.org? They have an absolutely enormous dataset. Hundreds of thousands of cataloged observations!

</comment><comment><USER11> Nice name ;-) For those not speaking familiar french, pignouf is something like dumb-ass (and champi is champignon, mushroom)

</comment><comment><USER12> What happens when this mislabels a poisoneous mushroom as something harmless? Where lies the responsibility? Can this app be used safely?

Imo it's quite different than a printed guide, because the app tells you what you're looking at instead of forcing you to interpret that by yourself like the printed guide does.

Seems especially tricky for users that don't understand that there will be tons of misclassifications with this kind of tech.

</comment><comment><USER13> Even a mushroom expert can't identify an arbitrary mushroom from one photo. The reason is: either the photo reveals the surface features of the cap or the gill/hymenium features but not both. Same goes for the cap/stipe and any important underground features, like a volva (important for identifying many poisonous mushrooms). So...

</comment><comment><USER14> Did you use a CNN to identify the mushrooms? (I assume so). Did you run into problems deploying the CNN to production? How do you intend to update it given feedback from your users, and the photos they submit?

<comment><AUTHOR> I did use a CNN, but didn't really run into problems for that. I do not intend to use user submitted pictures, as I would have no idea myself what they truly are, if it's what you meant.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> So I did a Google image search for "poisonous mushrooms" and it gave me a picture of "Galerina marginata" from Encyclopeadia Britannica[0].

According to the app: _I think it 's: Psilocybe zapotecorum Or perhaps Psilocybe subtropicalis , Psathyrella piluliformis , Psathyrella longistriata , or Kuehneromyces lignicola or something totally different!

Warning!!! Many mushrooms look alike and many are toxic! Champignouf makes a lot of mistakes! Do not eat mushrooms without being sure they are edible, you could die!_

Thanks, but not helpful.

[0] [https://www.britannica.com/list/7-of-the-worlds-most- poisono...](https://www.britannica.com/list/7-of-the-worlds-most-poisonous- mushrooms)

</comment><comment><USER16> For the landing page I'd address the images used to link to App Store and Google Play. You're using images that are 2000 by 600px wide, but resized down to 500 x 50px... and the proportions are off. Should be an easy fix.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thank you for your comment, yes I know I did it in a very dirty way, I don't really care about the landing page actually, more about the apps themselves as I'm a mobile developer.

I'd be curious to see how much traffic can a landing page bring though.

</comment></comment><comment><USER17> Be nice if you showed the uploaded picture and displayed confidence.

</comment><comment><USER18> I uploaded a picture I took of an Amanita flavoconia, and it correctly identified it as the #1 choice. The mushroom wasn't particularly well visually isolated in the photo either, it had sprung up among a bunch of moss and twigs and only occupied about a quarter of the frame, so I found this fairly impressive.

</comment><comment><USER19> This would be great if paired with a portable DNA sequencing device like those from Oxford nanowire: [https://nanoporetech.com/products/smidgion](https://nanoporetech.com/products/smidgion)

</comment><comment><USER20> Is there a catalogue of what it knows? It would be nice to see what is already there.

<comment><AUTHOR> No, not yet, but good idea!

<comment><USER20> Then add spore prints and we will really have something!

</comment></comment></comment><comment> dnt404-1 I uploaded a picture of my math assignment, and it showed a recommendation of mushroom!! I am not sure if one should trust this to actually figure out if a mushroom is edible or not.

</comment><comment><USER21> Please include example images from an excluded test set for demonstration. I'd rather not have to google for pictures, download one, upload it, ...

</comment><comment><USER22> Neat idea, however I can't even pronounce the name.

I've actually got a pretty solid name for you unregistered, but I'm not posting it publicly.

<comment><USER23> \ʃɑ̃.pi.ɲɔuf\

<comment><USER24> Or /ʃɑ̃.pi.ɲuf/, which I guess you could approximate in English as "shom-peen- yoof".

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER23> Bien joué !

</comment><comment><USER25> Here is another tool that identifies many other things [http://imageidentify.com/](http://imageidentify.com/)

<comment><USER22> Well, first example was a complete failure.

[https://www.imageidentify.com/result/1mvakwaegdqtn](https://www.imageidentify.com/result/1mvakwaegdqtn)</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do you keep energy to work on personal projects after work hours? - <AUTHOR> I have been on vacation when I started working on a personal project, so I had plenty of time. Now that I'm back to work, I feel I'm struggling to keep up, because once I arrive home (I work from 9am to 6pm and commute time is 1 hour) I'm so tired that I can barely focus and code. I'm very passionate about this project and don't want to just work on it during week-ends.
How do you do it?
PS : I also want to start working out, but do I even have time for that if I can't free time to work on my project? <comment><USER2> I'm lazy and thus, I trick myself into working out. I'll ride my bike to work or I'll walk to work. At the end of my shift, I have to walk home. No other choice.

When I get home, I still have an abundance of energy, so I hop on my MaxiClimber for 10 minutes, and then I have a protein shake as my reward afterwards.

Then I code till I fall asleep at night, which is usually about 3-4 hours. When I wake up, sometimes if my wife isn't bothering me, I'll code then before work. And if there is any downtime at work, I'll code during work.

Sometimes i even code in my sleep which is probably how I code even faster, knowing what I'm going into. But I'd say get some sleep before you code.

Very passionate about coding.. it's my escape, my gaming, my fun time.. its just that time where I get to be creative.

<comment><USER3> This is one of those replies I am not entirely sure if it is satire or not.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Your willpower is at full charge in the morning. Try to wake up early and use that time on your side project. It will require you to sleep a little earlier at night.

Also, keep a well defined list of tasks for your project. This will help you make the most of your time in the morning, you can grab a task and hit the ground running.

</comment><comment><USER5> I'm in the same boat. I have the same commute time. I also have side projects. I also wanted to work out.

For me I've come to realize that due to time constraints and depleted energy levels I can only focus on one thing per day and that I have to do it in the morning before work. To me that's the key aspect. And it's something I had to come to terms with.

Right now I'm focusing on fitness (I run) and I get virtually nothing done on my side projects. However I'm confident that I can switch it up in the future.

</comment><comment><USER6> I've tried to have a full time job and work on a side project, and if the side project is actually hard (not just some CRUD app) I can't progress at all. I think some of us expect too much from ourselves in terms of constantly working. If you had the mental capacity to work on your project, you'd probably already be working on it.

<comment><USER7> Ask hn: how do I push myself beyond my body's well defined limits

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Dude, I've even tried popping a Ritalin / Vyvanse (a few remaining from college years - don't bother, you get insomnia later and still can't produce), grabbing a coffee, taking a shower.

All no go.

A short nap is not enough as I'm already tired for the day, and a long one just gets me sleepy, then it gets too late already, and if I stay up late I won't be able to perform at work.

I second the thoughts of another person here who said there are so many productive hours in a day. Maybe if we were not bound by office hours, back when I was a student or in my short stints as a freelancer I could push two "rounds" of productivity in a day.

</comment><comment><USER9> _I also want to start working out, but do I even have time for that if I can't free time to work on my project?_

Start working out. Do that for a _few weeks_. You may find your energy levels rising and time for stuff suddenly being less of an issue.

Use your workout time to do double duty for thinking about other ways to free up time and energy, stuff related to your project etc. Maybe even use it to do things like listen to podcasts that might be pertinent to freeing up time or developing your project.

</comment><comment><USER10> At some point i managed to work only 3 days a week which was nice and i still had enough money. So maybe ask for a shorter week. Another point that did help me was my own story board that motivated me a lot (i saw the board all the time at home)

</comment><comment><USER11> You have to prioritize, but the job that puts food on the table has to come first. I have a full time, non-technical job and I wake up earlier to work out or work on projects. I say "or" because I only have time to do one or the other, so I tend to alternate.

</comment><comment><USER12> I've been doing software development professionally for about 20 years.

I've tried to do side projects during all this time, and my conclusion is: I don't think there's a solution. There's just only so many productive hours in a day.

If you want to do a side-project, the only thing that's ever worked for me is to take time off work. Minimum multiple weeks, ideally a few months. For example between jobs.

You can start planning for this while you have a job. Cut out unnecessary expenses, so you save money. Without saved money, you can't take a few months off.

</comment><comment><USER13> The key is to do it when you wake up. Just set your alarm 5 minutes earlier and spend those extra 5 minutes working on your project. It's tough, but try not to dwell on 'only being able to work X time on it' as this doesn't add value. I'd definitely recommend pacing yourself so that you finish your project. Consistency is the key. If you can commit 5 minutes each day to working on it, you will be well on your way.

<comment><USER10> 5 minutes ? i need hours :D

<comment><USER13> This is what I followed when I built CloudBuddy ([https://cloudbuddy.cloud](https://cloudbuddy.cloud)). For any side project it starts off being exciting and looking like a climbable mountain. Then when you start getting into it, it seems daunting. Each day I would tell myself I am going to put one foot in front of the other and walk up the mountain. No matter how slow it seems, I will make it to the top. Some days I was so burned out; those were the days that I only worked 5 minutes on it and called it a day. Other days, I was into it and naturally blew beyond the 5 minutes.

It took me 2 years and 3 months to launch CloudBuddy (which has paying users). There isn't anything special about me or my circumstances - I'm married, have a child and have a day job.

If anyone is having difficulty working consistently on their side project and it would help to have someone to talk to, email or drop me a line. My contact info is in my profile.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> "Commute time is 1 hour"

Well, there you have it! (if you commute by train, that is).

I almost exclusively work on my side projects during commute, which is also 1 hour. Especially the morning commute is very productive, on the way back I find myself lacking focus so I do some reading about sales, design, marketing.

Also, prioritize working out. Schedule time for it, even if it is 1-2 hours a week. You will earn more time in extra energy than it will cost you.

</comment><comment><USER15> Do it before your job, get up early. Whether you need 1 hour, 2 or 3, whatever's best. Once you develop the habit things become easier, it will be hard _not_ to do it. It's very energizing having already done a satisfying day's work, it's like 2 days in 1.

People have been doing this for a long time. I remember reading about 19th C novelists who wrote their novels by writing for an hour each morning before their day job.

</comment><comment><USER16> Try to get an issue done before starting work, slow and steady wins the race. All nighter every now and then when something is super interesting.

As for working out, ehhh yeah I'm supposed to do that too.. new years resolution? But being active gives you more energy so there's that, once you get to it.

</comment><comment><USER17> Wake up early and work on your personal project for an hour. Repeat for a month, then a year.

</comment><comment><USER18> I used to be a PT in the forces. Exercise only needs to last 20 minutes if you do it correctly to get benefits. Everyone has 20 minutes a day.

My advice is to get home and do a 20 min hiit workout. This will perk you up. Get some food and code away

</comment><comment><USER19> Drugs help. Caffeine, etc.

</comment><comment><USER20> The solution to coding and working out is planning.

Draw up a product roadmap and get the units of work down to ~1hrs work that you should be able to see a change at the end. Do the design down to little atomic units. Likewise, plan sets in the gym.

This also gives you excellent practice for managing a project.</comment>


What killed AIG: Not Goldman Sachs but securities lending program - <AUTHOR> http://www.thefinancialinvestigator.com/?p=134

<comment><USER2> Or, as the comments note, NY state Attorney General Eliot Spitzer.</comment>


Indian government asks Apple and Google to take down TikTok app - <AUTHOR> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/tech/software/no-sc-stay-on-ban-government-asks-apple-google-to-take-down-tiktok-app/articleshow/68898483.cms <comment><USER2> "ByteDance's applications TikTok and Helo are hugely popular among India's teen and pre-teen population, especially in smaller towns. Many Chinese apps, including TikTok, have come under fire not only in India but also in the US, the UK, Hong Kong and Indonesia for content that is often dangerously close to exposing children to nudity and possibly those who seek to coerce or groom underage users into committing explicit acts."

Saved you a click. The rest of the article is fluff.

<comment><USER3> TikTok's argument is also relevant:

In its petition to the Supreme Court [snip] The app was like any other social media platform, it said, adding that singling out TikTok was discriminatory and arbitrary.

<comment><USER4> They probably also have a pretty good nudity filter, considering that all pornography is illegal in China.

<comment><USER5> Search on youtube "tiktok indian videos". You will probably campaign to make the ban permanent.

<comment><USER4> If the videos can be found on YouTube, the problem can't be with TikTok alone, surely.

<comment><USER5> well those videos aren't exactly the worst of the lot though

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Google has now blocked Tik Tok in India as a result [0].

[0] [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-india- court/google...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-india-court/google- blocks-chinese-app-tiktok-in-india-after-court-order-idUSKCN1RS1HT)

<comment><USER7> YouTube also blocked two PewDiePie videos and their comments sections in India on behalf of the high court following a corporate defamation suit. Lately it's not unusual for Indian courts to censor specific media productions and platforms.

<comment><USER8> When did this happen? I can access the channel from India. Was it something that was temporary?

(I do want to support individual producers over corporate houses, but the whole PewDiePie vs. T-Series has a lot of racist and xenophobic overtones. This is what seems strange. Not all Indians like the T-Series brand, which has stood for cheap mass-market music and terrible quality cassettes once upon a time, but when the brand is vilified for being Indian in the comments sections, I feel revulsion towards the commenters.)

<comment><USER9> Two of his videos are not available in India any more.

[https://www.firstpost.com/tech/news-analysis/high-court- orde...](https://www.firstpost.com/tech/news-analysis/high-court-orders- youtube-to-pull-down-pewdiepies-diss-songs-against-t-series-6437621.html)

[https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Delhi-High-Court-banned- PewDie...](https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Delhi-High-Court-banned-PewDiePies- diss-songs)

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Less terrible site: [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-india- court/indian...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tiktok-india-court/indian- court-refuses-to-suspend-ban-order-on-chinese-app-tiktok-idUSKCN1RS1HT)

<comment><USER11> This should be the link in the OP

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> Christ, that site is probably the worst ad-laden/features promos experience on mobile that I've seen.

<comment><USER13> It's no better on the desktop. With uBlockOrigin, I can see 33 primary domains (ad and social networks), and 3 times that number secondary ones, blocked.

<comment><USER14> Yes, and it breaks the back button too. That is one of my major pet peeves and I immediately add any site that does it to a black hole filter.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Lol, I clicked the link hoping to read the article, got bombarded with a dozen pops and what not.

Then I was like, "ah Indiatimes, my mistake my mistake. I should have checked the link"

(I'm from India and I avoid Indian media sites like a plague)

<comment><USER16> I made sure to click their fake "allow notifications" modal so that the browser one would pop up and I could click "never allow".

<comment><USER15> I'll do that next time!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> They didn't explain the actual reason until literally the last sentence

<comment><USER18> That's a fair sample of Indian mainstream media for you. Most of the stuff will be in the headline with some info sprinkled in the article.

<comment><USER19> Indian media? All media is like that.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> The issue has to do more with culture than exposed children. The kulcha warriors are worried about exposure by women.

<comment><USER21> The same kulcha warriors also decriminalized homosexuality. While your favorite party (read family) was not able to for decades of their rule.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> TikTok is one of a couple Chinese apps that have similar disturbing content in India. [https://factordaily.com/chinese-app-kwai-turns-a-blind- eye-t...](https://factordaily.com/chinese-app-kwai-turns-a-blind-eye-to- videos-of-underage-girls-in-india/)

</comment><comment><USER23> AFAIK India is TikTok's second largest market after its native China.

There's big money at stake here. ByteDance, the company behind TikTok, is one of the most valuable private companies in the world: its last fundraising round was at a valuation of $75 billion USD.

</comment><comment><USER24> Clicked link. Saw notification request and Google sign in. Left.

</comment><comment><USER25> Anyone got a link to an APK that is safe to install?

</comment><comment><USER26> TikTok is a Chinese application so I wonder if there are other interests at play.

<comment><USER27> Check out Weibo, there's already a Proud Han army furiously attributing this ban to an Indian-American conspiracy designed to stop China's rightful rise.

The reality is, if you are unable to prevent millions of your users from seeing videos of sexualized children you will get in trouble.

<comment><USER28> Pornography is outright illegal in China so I imagine TikTok has that part nailed down.

<comment><USER27> You don't have to imagine, you can use it for 30 minutes yourself, it's wild west.

<comment><USER29> I did, no porn or even casual nudity to be found. It's squeaky clean. Search terms that might return anything like nudity or violence return 0 results and I checked to see if I was in restricted mode or not. It's the same as Snapchat, just as clean, just as boring.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER30> But why would the government be in in involved in banning apps. Don't we have more important cases pending.

<comment><USER31> I have no idea why people would want the government to step in. Forfeiting freedom because it's more convenient than being a hard-ass parent and not letting your child use the app or phone.

<comment><USER32> There are certainly apps that should be illegal where the government should step in, right? Unless you're arguing that all apps should be legal?</comment></comment></comment>


Letter heads, by Firefox labs - <AUTHOR> http://lab.simurai.com/toy/letter-heads/

<comment><USER2> this is extremely fun to play with and smoothly done.

If you dig this, please also see the work of Kumi Yamashita, who does similar shadow artwork with letters and shapes, but in real life.

<http://kumiyamashita.com/>

some stuff is super hard to believe, like:

<http://kumiyamashita.com/images/BUILDING-BLOCKS-FOR-WEB.jpg>

other artists working in this genre too:

<http://www.designer-daily.com/remarkable-shadow-art-405>

<comment><AUTHOR> Wow, this is some nice works!

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> More proof that web typography is finally reaching the state it should have been in a long time ago. I love it!

</comment><comment><USER4> a perfect mix of great design and vision and programming :) i smiled when i realized what the title really meant!

</comment><comment><USER5> This actually looked and performed great on the iPad 2. (You just couldn't move the shadow around)

</comment><comment><USER6> Wow! How did you figure out all the letter arrangements?

<comment><AUTHOR> Unfortunately I didn't do it. It's all part of the Firefox demos for Firefox 4 <https://demos.mozilla.org/en-US/>

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> Can someone explain this to a typography ignorant person please?

<comment><USER8> And the shadow is really just the same arrangement of letters in black. I thought it was canvas at first because it was blurry, but they use CSS text- shadow for that effect.

<comment><USER9> The curious can prove this by pressing Ctrl-A to select the letters (and all other text on the page).

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER10> Perfect use of the medium - Great work.

</comment><comment><USER11> Crashing on Chrome 9, Windows XP</comment>