Plan9 – A Distributed Operating System - <AUTHOR> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs <comment><USER2> What useful discussion is there even to be had around the wikipedia page for Plan9?

<comment><USER3> You'll notice that random Wiki articles get posted nearly daily here, get very few comments, but lots of upvotes and get close to the front page. Recent trend in the last year or so.

Sometimes they are good, most times they are useless.

<comment><USER4> I've been flagging all the "here's a random wikipedia page" low-effort posts, I recommend people do the same.

<comment><USER5> It's good to flag the ones that aren't a good fit, but please leave intact the ones on obscure topics. More explanation at my sibling comment ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22990237)).

<comment><USER6> How about just removing the flagging feature? It's annoying that a few people can derail a discussion on an article that many others have upvoted.

Also, what happened to the "vouch" button?

<comment><USER5> That's mistaken. A few flags can't do much against many upvotes. In fact, almost every story with many upvotes gets a few flags.

What are some cases where you felt like this was happening?

It's true that flagging doesn't work perfectly, but it works better than many major features of HN. For example, it works far better than the upvoting system. Upvotes alone would kill the site [1].

There's a tug of war between upvotes and flags [2]. Some users flag because they personally dislike or disagree with an article, but when an article gets many votes, those flags aren't enough to win the tug of war. For flags to win, there needs to be a coalition between that group and a (usually larger) group of users who feel that the submission breaks the site guidelines somehow, or that the topic has been repeated too much and the new article doesn't contain significant new information [3].

HN's system consists of community, software, and moderation. When one part of the system fails, another part exists to address the failure. For example, when moderators fail, the community lets us know. When the flagging system fails, in the sense that an article that is on-topic and interesting gets unfairly flagged, it's the moderators' job to correct that when we review the flagged items. Community members can speed that process up by emailing email@example.com.

[1] [https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22upvotes%20alone%22&sort=byDate&type=comment)

[2] [https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20tug%20of%20war&sort=byDate&type=comment)

[3] [https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22significant%20new%20information%22&sort=byDate&type=comment)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> There have been a lot of interesting discussions of Plan 9 here over the years, including:

Plan 9 released under GPLv2 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7232042](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7232042)

How I Switched to Plan 9 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21701798](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21701798)

Plan 9 from Bell Labs [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8718631](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8718631)

Harvey OS - A Fresh Take on Plan 9 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11788445](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11788445)

Plan9-9k: 64-bit Plan 9 [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11788445](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11788445)

Plan 9: The way the future was [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3537259](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3537259)

Why Plan 9 is not dead yet and what we can learn from it [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8649534](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8649534)

</comment><comment><USER8> Anyone had any luck with 9front, etc.? By which I mean, has it been a fun and interesting experience? I've been tempted so many times, but the whole thing is pretty intimidating.

</comment><comment><USER9> The same guy at univ, a plan 9 aficionado, who suggested forming a LUG also suggested Haskell. In 2001.</comment>


Show HN: Podbay - A fast and simple web client / analytics tool for podcasts - <AUTHOR> http://podbay.fm

<comment><AUTHOR> There's some more detailed info on the About page here: <http://podbay.fm/about>

We'd love to hear what you think!</comment>


Ask HN: thinking about buying a website, what would you investigate? - <AUTHOR>

Via a friend I've found a little website that is up for sale and I like it. All the obvious things have been checked and confirmed (legit, respected, traffic is certified and so forth).
I've also started looking into the SW itself (a sort of heavily customised drupal but no changes in core files so not a fork).
What else would you investigate? Not so much from a business point of view but from... any other point of view :)
Cheers <comment><USER2> The people selling it, basic due dilligence really. Of course it totally matters what the website is...

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks, that's all done and fine

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> check domain history on archive.org

check info:domain.com in google actually returns the site (if people are selling a site and faking the pagerank (some do...) or site index, a info:domain.com won't show the actual domain.

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks to you too. All done and all legit

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> check to see if the domain has been blacklisted anywhere like maybe spamhaus or something similar.

<comment><AUTHOR> thanks, had not thought of that</comment></comment>


Building the Firefox browser for Firefox OS - <AUTHOR> https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/08/building-the-firefox-browser-for-firefox-os/ <comment><USER2> Love some Firefox OS exposure. I'm a fan, really want to see the idea/project to succeed.

If you think about purchasing a device, here's my take.

\- the Flame feels really solid and looks quite nice.

\- the performance is nice/comparable to other platforms

\- current version (running from git here) of the OS looks nice and modern

\- it is trivial to build and install it (given a supported device ofc)

Ultimately it's not ready yet for daily usage for me, personally, but I suggest you check it out, give it a spin. I'm impressed how fast it improved already and hope to use the Flame as my default phone in the next couple month.

<comment><USER3> > If you think about purchasing a device

don't.

the work so far can all be done with emulator. DO NOT BUY A DEVICE. and as the parent just said, the performance on the emulator is MUCH better than the real device.

it is just more waste in the world.

Also, if anyone want a couple firefox phones msg me. i have a couple left. i got them when i believed that since they were going to be sold in stores, they would be consumer ready... and hence i needed to support them on my site... big mistake on all accounts. to being with they are not consumer ready. and it was close to impossible to find them in stores (despite them being advertised on billboards all over the city)

anyway, if you want a phone, msg me. i have a few left. be warned that is harder to flash than a re-purposed android phone. much. much harder. (extremely closed components and hard to crate kernels)

This is not hate on the project. just on their careless aggressiveness to go to market. the project has lots of future. just take your time before polluting the world with pure garbage.

<comment><USER4> I've been building my ZTE Open since pretty close to its initially release. I also use it as my daily device.

Also, I think this is your 3rd time(in my recent memory) derailing a Firefox OS thread to talk about how there are no phones in stores etc. Are you an astro turfer or are you just really angry at Mozilla for some reason?

<comment><USER5> I've been seeing these ultra-defensive "Are you an astro turfer or are you just really angry at Mozilla for some reason?"-style responses more and more from the Mozilla community lately, especially when somebody has raised some perfectly good and legitimate points about deficiencies with one of their products.

When discussing Firefox OS, it's perfectly reasonable and relevant to bring up issues surrounding the quality and the ease of acquiring devices that run Firefox OS. These factors have an absolutely massive impact on the experience of everyone involved, from developers to end users, and will directly influence the ability of Firefox OS to capture any substantial share of the market.

Attacking the people who raise awareness of these very real problems with these unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about "astroturfing" or weird accusations of "anger at Mozilla" won't do Mozilla or anyone else any good.

Instead, maybe listen to what people are saying! The limited availability of phones running Firefox OS is causing people problems, and affecting its adoption and usefulness. The devices it has been available on so far have not been very good, even compared to where Android and iOS were years ago. People aren't just making these problems up; they're very real problems! The same goes for problems that people bring up about Firefox, or Rust, or any of Mozilla's other offerings.

Admitting to the existence of these problems, and then resolving them, will have a much more positive impact than attacking anyone who happens to bring them up. The fact that people have to bring them up again and again indicates that they aren't being resolved properly, and that more work is needed.

<comment><USER4> As I said above, what does any of this have to do with the article at hand? This article was not about adoption or competition. If I were being defensive I would have tried to explain all the things I like about Firefox OS, or talked about things wrong with Android. My issue was that it didn't have anything to do with the article and I have a hard time understanding why anyone would bother.

<comment><USER5> You do realize that the submission discussion doesn't have to pertain solely to what was in the linked to article, right?

The topic is Firefox OS. Anything having to do with Firefox OS is worth discussing, and is perfectly valid discussion. That includes its problems. That includes how it is (or is failing to) compete with established players like iOS and Android. That includes the sorry state of the devices it comes with.

Deviation is perfectly fine. The point of the discussion is to share ideas. It's not to engage in mindless affirmation of whatever the linked-to article may say.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> I really wish Mozilla would put the resources currently behind Firefox OS and use them for something like a modern libgecko and standalone gecko wrapper that runs on different environments instead of making an OS.

The blink/webkit monoculture is causing issues but every app is embedding it because gecko as a platform for embedding is essentially dead.

<comment><USER7> At this point making gecko nicely embeddable is not worth the cost in engineering resources compared to what it would bring in. Servo, the next generation browser is being designed to be easy to reuse and this is what Mozilla is focusing on in this area.

<comment><USER8> Mozilla have no plans to replace Gecko with Servo. Servo is a research project.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> >I tried adding features to the browser app and every time I found something that wasn't possible with current web technologies, I went back to Justin to get him to cast a new magic spell.

As someone who working on a project that is beyond your average webapp [1][2], That is one of the most infuriating things to read. I need a Magic Justin! Where can you get a Magic Justin?

[1] [http://i.imgur.com/cLcirMy.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/cLcirMy.jpg) [2] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHwNxDWwuY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHwNxDWwuY4)

<comment><USER10> I recommend the dev-webapi mailing list. It is full of Magic Justins waiting to cast new magic spells for you.

[https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev- webapi](https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-webapi)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> I'm super excited to see improvements in the built-in App Manager in Firefox's developer tools. Hopefully it becomes a novice-friendly IDE that allows you to quickly start a new app, add some dependencies (jQuery, tweetNaCl, etc.), and start coding.

Having a built-in IDE significantly lowers the barriers for locals in developing countries to quickly make apps that apply to their local community.

</comment><comment><USER12> it has its problems here and there, but 2.0 on the Flame is really nice!

</comment><comment><USER3> it's all hacks and fun until you realize you now can't run any extension or global change in the 'browser'. :(

though another hack should be able to take of this easily... maybe even without forcing extension authors to change their extensions...

<comment><USER7> That will come, when I or someone else has time to finish [https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=923897](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=923897)

These won't be similar to the old Firefox extensions because that really does not make sense on FirefoxOS, but this is similar to user scripts and user styles.

</comment></comment><comment><USER13> Isn't Firefox OS essentially a browser as an OS? Why have a dedicated Browser app, can someone explain to me how Firefox OS is architectured?

<comment><USER14> If you read the article, you'll find this point addressed quite specifically.

</comment></comment><comment><USER15> Angry Guys,

You're missing the point here. Firefox OS doesn't aim to compete with Android. If you're running Android then you can use the Firefox for Android browser and install the same apps. Firefox OS phones are targeted at people from emergent countries who can't afford smartphones with Android.

There are countries where the cheapest Android device is about twice the price of Firefox OS. In this context, people from poorer chunks of society can buy Firefox OS and not get into debt.

Firefox OS is a tool to bring more people to the internet. To pick people that are currently using old symbian phones, asha and other feature phone platforms and offer them an affordable priced smartphone that doesn't break the bank.

Its made to be a simple experience for the first time smartphone buyer. Its not here to replace Android or iOS.

There are millions of people that are experiencing the internet for the first time not thru a desktop/laptop machine but thru mobile devices. Lots of these people would get into debt to buy devices. Thats the target demographic.

If you don't understand this then its very easy to compare the platform to Android expensive devices.

And yes the platform is young but it is growing fast. If we achieve all our objectives the apps will work the same on Firefox OS and Android (thru Firefox for Android).

The Web API is getting more complete and standarized. Soon you will be able to rely on HTML5 for your cross platform apps and not be locked in silos. This is more important than people realize. Being able to interoperate across platforms and devices is one of the key success features of the web.

Now for a personal opinion. I have all the Firefox OS devices and some iOS and Androids in here. As a developer, Firefox OS is the most hackable and fun platform to program for. I have the absolute entry level phones and the current flame device running our nightly version.

The flame is my currently daily driver and of course there are difficulties. Apps missing, features missing. Its getting better and it is open in a sense that no other platform is. I'd rather invest my time and effort on it now so that in the near future with have a great open platform that keep being a fanboy of some closed expensive thing where I have no say.

iOS and Windows are closed platforms. Android is somewhat open but since their current tendency to move good bits into play services and not opening their built in apps such as gmail and also the fact that you can't contribute code and that the development is behind a closed door makes it less open and desirable in the long run.

We can bitch all day here about missing features in any young platform. The fact is, if you care for an open source mobile platform then you can join the Mozilla community and help build one. If you don't care about open source but care about society, you can also join and help build a system that is affordable in emergent countries. If you don't care about any of the stuff I mentioned, you can keep using whatever you'd like. We're not forcing anyone to do anything. We're building this platform because the world needs a mobile operating system that is developed in the open and that is truly open source. Its young but its learning tricks every night...</comment>


Clippy.JS - Add Clippy and friends to any website - <AUTHOR> http://www.smore.com/clippy-js <comment><USER2> I had a lot more fun playing with this Clippy than I thought I would. I remember HATING Clippy and now I'm questioning why I did.

The only conclusion I can make is that it wasn't the actual character and its animations that I hated. They are, if I'm being honest with myself, kind of cute and endearing. The reason I hated Clippy was that it was _condescending_.

"I see you're trying to write a letter. Would you like me to help you with that?"

Hindsight is 20/20, but Microsoft should have realized there's no way to phrase that and not insult the intelligence of 90% of your users.

Interestingly, I see an analogy here with today's GPS software. No matter how nice they make the voice sound, they never fail to sound condescending when you veer from the pre-calculated route. I love MotionX GPS Drive for the iPhone (other than the fact that it crashes every time I go to another app), but the default voice manages to make me physically angry every time she says "Rerouting". You can almost hear the disappointing frown on her face, as if she's saying " _sigh_ I guess I'm going to have to plot a new course since you're obviously not smart enough to stay on the one I made for you."

How hard would it be to make a GPS system that just assumed I might want to get gas or stop for a bite to eat if I took an unplanned exit off an interstate with hundreds of miles to go on my journey?

I think Clippy and rude nav systems are different manifestations of the same problem. It's a kind of "uncanny valley of human-computer interaction", although here the revulsion is not triggered by looks or movement but by BEHAVIOR. It's behavior that is almost, but not quite, human. Specifically, I think it's triggered when a computer system takes a tone of intellectual superiority over its user.

Because most of us know that our technology is nowhere near the level of intelligence needed to actually be wiser than we are, we feel the same kind of indignation and resentment at the posturing of the system as we do when a small child insists that we don't know what we're talking about while answering their question about why the sky is blue.

<comment><USER3> >How hard would it be to make a GPS system that just assumed I might want to get gas or stop for a bite to eat if I took an unplanned exit off an interstate with hundreds of miles to go on my journey?

Just as a side note, I really like Google Maps' routing system. If I stray from the computed route it just silently recalculates and let's me know where to turn next. There is no "Recalculating" phrase at all. :)

<comment><USER4> Same with the Mercedes COMAND navigation, it'll just announce the next turn whichever way you are going. I generally like the way Mercedes do things in this regard.

<comment><USER5> Mercedes invented the much imitated seat adjustment controls now found in many cars (control shape and layout matches seat, required motions mirror desired adjustment). Don Norman uses them as an example of excellent mapping in The Design of Everyday Things.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> Ooh, Microsoft Agent support in JavaScript!

I had a lot of fun playing with the MSAgent API as a kid.

Microsoft Agent was pretty cool. Not terribly useful, but there's a huge variety of available agents. It had text-to-speech as well as voice recognition. You could completely programatically control it.

Internet Explorer even supported MSAgent in the browser. There were a few sites that used it for various fun animations or greetings cards. Perhaps this could make them usable again.

In fact, you could also use it in PowerPoint to add an agent to your presentations. That was fun.

<comment><USER7> Me too! I have even drawn and assembled my own character in this "ACE" editor MS has published...

Anyway, I think it was a great technology -- it could work perfect just as a async-capable and timeout-dismissable replacement of all those stacked messageboxes and dialogs Office uses, and they made it a fancy help search box :-(

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> What's the difference between Clippy and Siri? Maybe it's just that Siri is out of the way until you call her, but Clippy was always there, commenting on what you were doing, _judging you_.

Maybe Agents would've taken off if you had to press the Windows key or something to summon them.

<comment><USER2> Siri tries very hard to be a true "agent"; that is, the makers of the technology strived to make Siri something that would perform tasks on your behalf and at your command.

Clippy was also intended to be an "Agent", but it failed spectacularly at it because:

1\. It tried to help you when you didn't want help, like an annoying intern who won't leave you alone.

2\. When you actually wanted it to help you, it was invariably unable to perform the tasks you wanted.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Interestingly, there's only one big image per agent :

-> <http://clippy.js.s3.amazonaws.com/Agents/Clippy/map.png>

-> <http://clippy.js.s3.amazonaws.com/Agents/Links/map.png>

-> <http://clippy.js.s3.amazonaws.com/Agents/Merlin/map.png>

-> <http://clippy.js.s3.amazonaws.com/Agents/Rover/map.png>

<comment><USER10> Spriting is very common. For example, here's how the Facebook logo on the homepage is rendered: [https://s-static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v1/yO/r/_2cdInypv2b.p...](https://s-static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/v1/yO/r/_2cdInypv2b.png)

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Perfect project to get some attention/traffic to their actual product. Not hating at all, just saying that it's a good move. Made me check out their project because I wanted to know what else these guys are up to.

</comment><comment><USER12> Oh my god that cat is so much cuter than any of the 3D-rendered assistants. The "GetArtsy" animation makes me so happy to watch with how it plays with the fourth wall.

</comment><comment><USER13> Is there a Google Docs plugin for this?

</comment><comment><USER14> kill it - with fire!

It reminds me of my now aged mother shouting at me down the phone "how do I get rid of that little bastard paper clip that pops up and tells me what I should be doing every 2 seconds".

</comment><comment><USER15> The designer of Clippy gave a speech at ROFLCon a few years ago and gave some insight into how Clippy came about. There's a video of it here [http://blip.tv/roflcon/it-looks-like-you-are-giving-a- keynot...](http://blip.tv/roflcon/it-looks-like-you-are-giving-a- keynote-3695930)

</comment><comment><USER16> This makes me super happy. I would like to add some sort of dialogue tree support to it.

</comment><comment><USER17> Sung to the tune of "Hells Bells" by AC/DC

        I'm rolling suggestions, pouring pain
        I'm coming on like a hurricane
        My avatar's flashing across the sky
        You're not young but you're gonna die
        I won't take no users, won't spare no lives
        Document's putting up a fight
        I got my clip I'm gonna take you to hell
        I'm gonna get ya, Clippy get ya

        Hells bells
        Hells bells, you got me ringing
        Hells bells, my temperature's high
        Hells bells

        I'll give you black sensations up and down your spine
        If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine
        ...

</comment><comment><USER18> I going to burn karma here, but obligatory comedy video - <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rl5SOuq6-g>

</comment><comment><USER19> Sadly disappointed that Bonzi Buddy didn't make a cameo.

<comment> angry-hacker We need bonzi buddy. It was the first thing I installed on my reformatted pc everytime my whole family loved him.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> I've wanted this for a long time! I can't wait to code this, as a joke, into one of my sites and have clippy popup on a few key words.

</comment><comment><USER21> I was hoping someone would make this, so I didn't have to. I have a feeling we'll see this turn up a lot sometime around 4/1/13.

</comment><comment><USER22> Come next April 1st this is going to be _everywhere_

And it can't come soon enough :o)

 _"I see you're sending an email. Would you like help with that?"_

</comment><comment><USER23> Oh cool, didn't realize the bold, italic, underline, undo and redo buttons work in the header. Well done! ;)

</comment><comment><USER24> copyright lawyer invasion in 3...2...

<comment><USER25> Also worth noting there are several patents relating to Microsoft Agent.

e.g. <http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5682469> <http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5880731>

<comment><USER26> I noticed you're filing a patent suit, would you like help with that?

Alternatively, the judge sees the suit and laughs Microsoft out of court.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER27> Cute. Potential lawsuit. Confusing name choice. [Clippy][1] is already a thing. It's the open source 'copy to clipboard' swf by mojombo.

[1]: <https://github.com/mojombo/clippy>

<comment><USER28> Right but Microsoft would have been first right?

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> one of the few things I've been searching for is oneko.js. seeing this, I have new found hope.

as for clippy, it would be more entertaining if it made suggestions when someone typed something in a text field, or so I would think..

</comment><comment><USER30> This is the first time I haven't tried to knock it off my screen immediately.

</comment><comment><USER31> Are Clippy and co. property of MS or free to be used freely?

</comment><comment><USER32> I feel so much more at home! In... 1998.

<comment><USER33> Actually it looks better than the real one!

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> What kind of sick person would do this?

<comment><USER35> Looks pretty cool for a Konami code easter egg :)

<comment><USER36> Or as an IE6-8 only "feature" ;)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER37> _Nostalgia_ is a hell of a drug.

</comment><comment><USER38> Just Wow!

</comment><comment><USER39> this is great. "print" is especially horrifying.

</comment><comment><USER40> no. No. NO. Just no.</comment>


Ask HN: How do you promote your open-source project? - <AUTHOR>

I have an open source project I've been working on and I'd love to have people using it and getting feedback from them. I'm not sure how to go about this, though. It's 100% free OSS so I'm not looking to make money.<p>Other than a Show HN post, how do you get people to actually try and use your project? <comment><USER2> Do this the same way you'd get more people to buy it, if you were selling it.

* Reduce barriers to entry - make sure that your product is easy to find, easy to install (or to setup an account), easy to use, easy to see its value * Figure out who your _ideal_ user is. Who will get the absolute most value out of your product? * Document exactly how easy it is for your ideal user to get some specific "quick wins" with it. Pick one as your "primary pitch". * Figure out where your ideal user hangs out and describe the "quick wins" from above. Find people who are actively complaining about problems and say "Oh by the way, this easy-to-use free software will fix that for you". * When those users are happy, ask them to tell their friends.

</comment><comment><USER3> Same here.. But it's not an software or something, I just created an Github repo for OSS creators to get contributors and for contributors to get an apt open source project for them.. But, it is not a single worth if no one contributes and there it lies in dust..

[https://github.com/avinoth/OpenSourceForBeginners](https://github.com/avinoth/OpenSourceForBeginners)

the real problem here is I am new too, and that is my first Repo, hence, need some absolute guidance which I could never get irrespective of my requests... :(

</comment><comment><USER4> I posted Postman ([https://github.com/zachlatta/postman](https://github.com/zachlatta/postman)) on HN, /r/programming, and /r/golang. I also sent it to a few friends I knew who were interested in email. I got about 15 thousand hits and coverage on a few small sites in addition to a couple pull requests.

<comment><AUTHOR> I haven't posted on /r/programming yet. How well received was your post there? I don't want to be seen as spamming. I posted a link there once that had some advertising in it and I got slammed.

<comment><USER5> I've had similar experiences. HN mostly ignores my work and Reddit actively engages in berating and belittling.

Most of the stuff I've read points towards getting to know bloggers in the industry for which your software covers and submitting to them for review. Don't ask me how to avoid appearing spammy there, either. The articles I've read just say "do it" not "how".

You could also try paying for advertising. The bounce rate is much higher, but it's proven to be a much more reliable stream than social media for my project.</comment></comment></comment>


Ask HN: Does a good desk setup make you more productive? - <AUTHOR> I recently bought a very large desk and a comfortable work chair where I had previously been using a small cluttered desk and a very uncomfortable chair. I think the increase in available space and comfort will make me more productive but I wanted to get other people's take. <comment><USER2> Yes it does. There is a lot of research that suggests desks in the future need to be larger. One to accommodate more monitors, and two because people like to work with paper and computers. Paper you have to spread out, which requires a big desk.

A big desk made me much more productive, but it took a very long time. I'm not saying it's not worth it, you learn a lot, but it's a massive amount of effort. Once you get a bigger desk, you'll find that you don't use it a lot because you keep getting up to get things. You'll eventually figure out standardized locations for everything, but then because it's so standardized you'll find yourself stealing from it because you know what you need will be there.

You'll probably also need an extra keyboard, special mouse, desk lamp to help with the overreaching that causes lots of physical strain as well as the low light (or too much light) that can cause eye strain.

Next you'll constantly fidget and get up for a drink of water, some food, a snack...so you'll have to think about how you eat, how you space out meals, set locations for water bottles, and so on and so forth.

Once you're done with all that, you'll then sit down to work...and you'll actually have to, for once in your life, confront your demons of inattention, task switching, and pure laziness. This is what finally got me to start meditating as well as eliminate the mental pollution of entertainment disguised as news.

We spend around 14 hours a day, maybe more, at our homes, so all in all I think it was worth it. But realize you'll be building so many skills from the ground up that our culture just never teaches you.

<comment><USER3>
        > There is a lot of research[...]

Mind linking to some of it?

<comment><USER2> Main text is probably this, it goes into a lot of other stuff though:

Architectural Robotics: Ecosystems of Bits, Bytes, and Biology (MIT Press) [https://www.amazon.com/dp/026203395X](https://www.amazon.com/dp/026203395X)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER4> This image [0] of the setup used for "The Mother of All Demos" [1], [2 - video] reminds me that the way we currently use computers and desks may not be the only way.

The keyboard and mouse controls are on a panel that is connected to the chair so they stay in the correct position relative to your body even if you turn one way or the other.

Just thinking about this video sometimes gives me shivers.

[0] [https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp- content/uploads/2015/04/Willi...](https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp- content/uploads/2015/04/WilliamEnglish-1.jpg)

[1] [http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html](http://sloan.stanford.edu/mousesite/1968Demo.html)

[2] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv- zdhzMY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY)

</comment><comment><USER5> For me personally, it makes a huge difference. I recently installed a 600mm deep worktop in my office, lasted maybe 2 months before I ripped it out and replaced with a 900mm deep desk - much better, more breathing space and I can spread out over paper or just get some space around my monitor. On my PhD I managed to one of the few corner desks and guarded that thing with my life.

I assume it dates back to when I was studying for A-levels (UK school exams 16-18 years old). I would do all of my evening's prep (UK boarding school name for homework) on the largest table in the old library, I'd set up a sort of defensive wall of papers and folders that took up a 1-2 meter radius from me and sometimes more if I was working on a particularly large mind map. People soon got the idea and, since the school wasn't lacking for places to work, no one seemed to mind me bunking down for 2.5 hours (yes, we had enforced prep in silence from 7-9:30pm) every weekday evening and giving me all the space I needed.

Enjoy your new desk!

<comment><USER6> I find it interesting that you measure your desk in mm and not cm. Is that common in metric countries? For me, here in the States, I would say I moved from a 24in to 36in desk (which incidentally is also 2 feet to 3 feet, but I wouldn't use feet).

<comment><USER7> Most people outside the states and Great Britain use metric for everything.

<comment><USER8> But do you happen to know the answer to the question you were replying to? The one you answered wasn't the one that was asked.

<comment><USER7> Right, my bad.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER9> I find ergonomics is the most important factor for me. My desk is a bit cluttered but it doesn't affect my productivity (I think?).

A comfortable chair, keyboard, mouse and monitor setup is almost critical for working an extended period of time. I also work from home and realized I needed a dedicated room/area for my workspace. Before this, I was in a smaller apartment and my desk was in the living room area. I noticed my morale deteriorating after a few months in that environment.

</comment><comment><USER7> Yes. I recently updated my home setup to include a cheap standing desk [1], an external monitor mounted on an arm, and a desk chair with a firmer seat and back (that a friend gave me for free). It's been night and day in terms of what I can get done when working from home or working on side projects.

Your desk doesn't need to be that big. I had a larger desk before and aside from not fitting very well in my room, it tended to get cluttered with random junk. Having a smaller desk forces me to keep it clean. Also using a monitor arm helps you claim back some space.

On the chair, comfort is important but like I mentioned above firmer is better if you're going to be sitting for a long time (and again, standing desks are not that expensive so you should consider one).

[1] $240 from IKEA [http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S49084965/](http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S49084965/). It's cheap because it's manual (you turn a crank to adjust the height) but it works fine.

<comment><USER10> Standing desks are for people who like to get up early, and drink Soylent. This is more my style:

[http://altwork.com/](http://altwork.com/)

Although as ever, The Onion was way ahead:

[https://www.theonion.com/more-office-workers-switching-to- fe...](https://www.theonion.com/more-office-workers-switching-to-fetal- position-desks-1819595666)

<comment><USER11> The Onion also had some decent advice on standing at your desk:

[https://www.theonion.com/health-experts-recommend- standing-u...](https://www.theonion.com/health-experts-recommend-standing-up- at-desk-leaving-o-1819577456)

:)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> The answer is yes.

Since a lot of people are chiming in with monitor suggestions, I'll add my own:

       32" 4k main
       27" 2560x1440 secondary

32" has your IDE and misc dev tools, consoles, etc

Rotate the 27" monitor to portrait mode. Use it for your browsers (however you need them).

Edit:

If you go the 4k route, absolutely make sure your hardware can drive it at 60hz. HDMI will typically only give you 30hz and you will go mad.

<comment><USER13> Is it really that useful to have a large secondary monitor? I have a 28" 4K and it can already show 2-3 files side by side. I just use the secondary monitor to display code.

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> In my experience, a desk is a reflection of your mind: cluttered desk, cluttered mind. Empty desk, empty mind. I need to strike a balance with ordered things on the periphery of my desk, and a large empty zone to bring work in to.

Desk hygiene cannot be overvalued- if that is the way your mind works best. I find I am often a product of my environment- wthats why working from home is so difficult; home is "relaxation and projects" space, not work space. Same deal with clothes. I try to dress in a buttondown and slacks to go to work, whereas a lot of my coworkers just do a T-shirt and jeans. Like the stanford prison experiments, it is all about the environment.

<comment><USER15> This is a very personal thing. In my case, it's the complete opposite. I find that when I'm productive, I focus less on my environment and more on the work itself. From a purely aesthetic viewpoint, I obviously prefer a clean desk over a dirty one, but in my experience, my desk is messiest when I'm doing my best work.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> There are a few things where I, as a software developer, would almost always go for as big and as many and as high quality as I could get. Desk space, shelf space and chairs are all on that list.

These days I think my perfect work space would probably have a good chair with desk on three sides. I'd like the central desk area reserved for my main workstation screens and other peripheral devices. I'd have one side for all the organisers and phones and gadgets and chargers. And until someone invents an electronic version that beats good old pen and paper, I'd have the other side include a large, comfortable writing/drawing surface, a magical unlimited supply of paper and different colours of pens, all the writing/drawing aids like rules and compasses and so on, along with a good printer and a good scanner.

</comment><comment><USER17> I have a huge desk, an oversized "executive" office chair, a foot rest, full size keyboard, and plenty of open space around me. My sitting position is highly optimized towards what I consider comfortable, both physically and mentally. My desk rolls between pristine and cluttered with lots of papers.

Compared to working on a laptop, literally on my lap, the difference in productivity is infinite as I can't get anything done in a cramped environment.

</comment><comment><USER18> There is no question it a proper desk makes an improvement. starting with 4-5 feet wide, and about 30" deep is a good place to go.

The key thing a desk enables is ergonomics, productivity, and avoiding fatigue through allowing a variety of work configuration.

I have had a standing desk for almost 5 years, and while I don't religiously stand or sit for any period of time, I just stand when I'm feeling restless, and sit when tired. Works great.

A desk isn't a desk without what you do on it, mine also has:

\- A table top of your preferred size, attached to a standing desk, with a quality desk is invaluable. Prime Cables sells standing desk legs for under $200. \- I run three 24" QHD monitors, replaced 2 27" QHD monitors. Less neck movement, and way more pixels. It's not just about screensize, but number of usable pixels. \- MS Sculpt ergonomic keyboard that i switch with the freestyle \- MS Sculpt mouse

All attached to a MBP.

I wasn't a fan of the keyboard and mouse, but once I got used to it in a few weeks, I can't type on my laptop anymore with pain. Don't feel like you need all of the above, I've arrived at what I have one piece at a time, trying different things.

</comment><comment><USER19> For me, enough desk for my computer, a book on the left and an A4 notebook on the right is important (another commenter posted about not having enough room for the paper -- really rang home for me). I either work at a long table on the laptop (but don't use most of the space) or at a desk with an external monitor. Either way I don't have a lot on the desk. Good if chair is the right hight.

More important to me is QUIET and lack of distractions. Either silence or white noise. No random things moving around (as I would have in an open plan office even with headphones).

Otherwise it doesn't matter much. I've written a lot of code on planes (in cabin white noise is great) as long as I can switch off the seatback monitor.

In general I don't like to have a lot of specialized tools (multiple monitors, fancy keyboards, unusual pens etc) -- the cognitive burden is too much.

<comment><USER10> _not having enough room for the paper_

I wonder if having a small desk has a kanban-like effect. No, you don't have room for the computer, and a phone, and your notebook, and that book, and those printouts. Pick one and get on with some work.

<comment><USER19> Interesting thought. Your idea suggests a theoretical basis I might be unwittingly embracing.

I don't use a multiple monitor setup, though I do like having more pixels than I get on my laptop so do have a single external monitor at the desk. I mostly code in a text editor with command line debugger.

I haven't used printouts in a very long time, in part because they are clumsy and overwhelming(!!). The notebook is only to keep temporary state. But anything smaller than A4/8.5x11 paper is too small in the occasional case where I want to draw a picture / graph.

I have never thought of myself as trendy. Hmm. :-)

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER20> Yes, absolutely.

I recently purchased a very wide, standing desk, and boy, do I regret not doing this before. It takes up a healthy portion of the room, but it has increased my productivity immensely. Another, added bonus is the fact that my body feels a whole lot better after a standing day's work than a sitting day's work.

Definitely look into it!

</comment><comment><USER21> My work space is very clean, tidy, and I feel productive for hours. Skipping breaks because I'm in my mode, but I also try to get work done at home and it doesn't feel the same level, and it's much harder to get into the zone, it's like your original small cluttered desk/chair.

</comment><comment><USER22> I have a fixed chair (no adjustments) with fixed legs (no wheels). I found over the years of home office that an adjustable/movable chair is a big distractor.

I quit using a second monitor too. That was a big productivity gain. I am a project manager, so I have no need for two screens.

<comment><USER23> wut. I find the more monitors the better. Do you do software development? How do you reference code/documents why writing software? I'm very confused.

<comment><USER22> I forgot to comment that I'm a PM. Alt+tab on a single monitor does the work for me.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER24> In general yes, though at my home office when my desk is clean my cat walks across it and takes liberty in lying on my keyboard or jumping in my lap whenever he wants. My clutter defends against him :-)

</comment><comment><USER25> A chair should be comfortable enough to not be distracting, but not so comfortable that you'd like to sleep in it.

A desk should be large enough to support your work style. For me, that means space for a few large monitors, keyboards, and mice (I have a desktop and laptop, and sometimes bring the latter in for maintenance.) I also like space for notebooks of written notes, and area for someone else to work at if they're "visiting" while we collaborate.

Without a large enough desk, I tend to start taking over other furniture for paper storage.

</comment><comment><USER26> I personally don't value it that much; a good chair is important if I sit (but I try to stand mostly or sit on a couch outside) and I have no use for large monitors, mice or keyboards other than built into my laptop. I am more productive with clutter (I have tested this many times) and I don't really like desks that are too large. It's very personal though; I know people who agree with me and I know who wouldn't be able to work like I do.

</comment><comment><USER27> Large, too comfortable desks do not work for me well. Instead I prefer to use a smallish desks that impose limitations on available space. In this way, I get in the zone.

I also tend to care about my customers more when I bound to some physical restrictions. In simple words, I become more empathetic to other people's ups and downs when I feel the pain of this world. Even when such limitations are artificially imposed on my working environment.

</comment><comment><USER28> In the short term yes, but in the long term no. After a while your cognition will become accustomed to your "good desk" and what was once a fresh new desk will become just an ordinary desk. Your production will return to what is was before the "good desk." You will have to eventually update the "good desk" to maintain that level of productivity. Its a cycle..

And herein lies the problem of man

<comment><USER29> Unless one train one's mind to see the constant renewing freshness of contact with objects of perception from moment to moment.

 _It was an everlasting beginning._ Boehme

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Look at the desk of the most high-performing researchers or developer at your business (if you have any). It doesn't matter for most people.

<comment><USER31> Usually, it's large, comfortable, and cluttered.

</comment></comment><comment><USER32> Absolutely. Clean and free of any discomfort is not just desired but required.

After looking at expensive office chairs I ended up making one out of the seat of a wrecked sports car ($70 and they removed it from the car for me. Leather, very comfy). I used the base from an old swivel chair. Best chair I've ever had. The only downside being that it reclines enough to nap in.

<comment><USER33> > The only downside being that it reclines enough to nap in.

Sounds like a feature, not a bug. :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> No, a good vim setup does ;)

<comment><USER35> Only if you use the `standup` plugin. ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Any work area change makes a difference. Depending on my mood it can be a couch, cafe, kitchen table, office desk, etc... Regardless of locale, having my things organized and laid out comfortably is always important, and if a bigger desk helps you accomplish that, you'll be more productive.

</comment><comment><USER37> I really just need a good chair. A comfortable chair allows me to focus on whatever I am working on. Stuff on the desk in the way? Put it on the ground. A big desk is good, but when I want to get something done I'll work on that one thing very hard --- for that, I need maximum comfort.

</comment><comment><USER38> I think it does. Personally, I found a stand up desk at home to increase productivity. I like a monitor at the appropriate height and an ergonomic keyboard. Chair is optional. I have a somewhat uncomfortable chair to help me remember to stand. This mimics my at work set up.

</comment><comment><USER39> I would have to say yes. The more comfortable you are at your desk, the more time you are going to spend there. Also having a clean, tidy desk will lead to a clean, tidy mind.

Despite knowing that, my desk is still incredibly messy...

</comment><comment><USER40> For me, absolutely. I need a desk where my arms don't feel forced up to get to the keyboard, so a low desk and a high chair without arm rests. I also like having a vertical monitor and a mechanical keyboard.

</comment><comment><USER41> A big desk doesn't make much difference to me. I'm happy anywhere with my laptop and a pad of paper. A comfortable chair is important though. Cosy lightning helps too.

</comment><comment><USER42> I have to say, I feel productive in a clean setup. It helps me not get distracted by the mess, and also makes it easy to find stuff

</comment><comment><USER43> Unequivocally yes.

I'd also highly recommend using multiple larger (>20") displays for a notable productivity boost.

</comment><comment><USER12> On a related note:

Any monitor arm recommendations? For a 32" and a 27" monitor which I keep in portrait mode.

<comment><USER44> I really like my Ultra Wide screen monitor.

<comment><USER12> I had an 34" ultrawide at a previous job. I liked it, but the 32" 4k has a little more screen real estate. Probably just a personal preference, one way or the other.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER45> Definitely get a mechanical keyboard. A nice Model F or Model M will do. :)

</comment><comment><USER46> I think about it this way: a bad desk setup certainly won't help you. Since, relative to all other expenses, a good desk setup is not too expensive, why not choose a good one?

</comment><comment><USER47> Good desk and comfortable chair makes you more fat, that's all.</comment>


FreeBSD 101 Hacks - <AUTHOR> https://nanxiao.gitbooks.io/freebsd-101-hacks/content/ <comment><USER2> For something that purports to be for FreeBSD specifically, it is disappointing to see an explanation of how to set environment variables for login shells giving the same old tired and laborious _this-is-how-you-edit- shell-one 's-login-script, this-is-how-you-edit-shell-two's-login-script_ explanation when FreeBSD, like other BSDs, has the login.conf mechanism that allows a user or a system administrator to prescribe environment variables to be set for login sessions without caring about the user's choice of login shell.</comment>


Twitter's Kafka adoption story - <AUTHOR> https://blog.twitter.com/engineering/en_us/topics/insights/2018/twitters-kafka-adoption-story.html <comment><USER2> How did you solve producer fencing mechanism which was built into Bookkeeper with Kafka (Without considering the write proxy)?</comment>


How to make Firefox faster - <AUTHOR> http://www.itworld.com/software/133737/how-make-firefox-faster <comment><USER2> No. Chrome is fast, Firefox is extendible. You can always install both.</comment>


Open Source Clone of Theme Hospital in Lua - <AUTHOR> https://github.com/CorsixTH/CorsixTH

<comment><USER2> I thought ,at some point in the future, there would be an effort to recreate all of the game's artwork and sounds from scratch, at which point the original will no longer be required. Has anyone started this work?</comment>


The NSA Wants Its Own Smartphone - <AUTHOR> http://www.uberreview.com/2011/09/the-nsa-wants-its-own-smartphone.htm

<comment><USER2> FYI, this article is 4 months old. Still good, but note the date.

</comment><comment><USER3> I thought this was the point of the Sectera Edge, which has been around for a long time.</comment>


A Sneak Preview of Wolfram Alpha: Computational Knowledge Engine (archived video) - <AUTHOR> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/interactive/events/2009/04/wolfram

<comment><USER2> Is it too much to ask to be able to view the software rather than Wolfram talking? I know what he looks like SHOW ME THE SOFTWARE!!!

<comment><USER3> Perhaps a moderator could change the subject line to "Stephen Wolfram discusses Wolfram|Alpha (no screens)" given the absent shots.

If this wasn't a request of Wolfram's, I wouldn't want to be the cameraman this week.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> If you can't wait for Wolfram, give START a try

START: <http://start.csail.mit.edu/>

</comment><comment><USER5> Thanks, I found this valuable. It's a good advert for Wolfram too; he's a lot more personable when he's talking about something else besides his resume :-)

</comment><comment><USER6> As I wait for the multi-hour download to complete, I wonder: What does Harvard's Berkman Center have against YouTube?

<comment><USER7> it's redirecting to youtube now. but the recording is total crap - no slides.

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> who was the moron who recorded this lecture? all the most important information is in the slides. i want to see them.</comment>


Am I a Glasshole? Or Are You a Self-Absorbed Luddite?  - <AUTHOR> http://www.cultofandroid.com/54761/glasshole-self-absorbed-irrational-luddite/ Not sure why people are so freaked out by Google Glass <comment><USER2> The answer to both questions is undeniably "Yes".</comment>


Airbnb Is Raising a Round at a $20B Valuation - <AUTHOR> http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/27/airbnb-2/ <comment><USER2> For comparison: Marriott International is valued at $22B. In 2013, Marriott employed 199,929 workers and made $626M profits off of $12.78B revenues.

<comment><USER3> Airbnb's valuation seems totally irrational to me, given the nature of their business. Still, I would think any business would like to double their valuation in a year.

Mariott should convert all of their hotels into apartments, fire all of their staff, rent the apartments, and then have those people rent the apartments to other people via mAIRiottBNB.com. Boom, instant market cap doubling.

<comment><USER4> Is market cap really the only objective?

<comment><USER3> No, and doing that would ultimately destroy Marriott's business. I think Airbnb's investors would be wise to think about that.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> Well according to this article[1] this ups Y Combinator's portfolio value from $30 billion to at least $40 billion.

Pretty impressive.

[1] [http://www.fastcompany.com/3033215/most-innovative- companies...](http://www.fastcompany.com/3033215/most-innovative- companies/the-value-of-y-combinators-portfolio-exceeds-30-billion)

<comment><USER6> > Well according to this article[1]...

Be careful about headlines written by kids playing journalist. The value of the companies in YC's portfolio might be $30-$40 billion but that does not mean that the value of YC's portfolio is $30-$40 billion because YC doesn't own 100% of the shares.

> Pretty impressive.

Or scary. I heart Airbnb but the idea that it doubled in value in less than a year and is worth almost as much as say Marriott, which owns real estate, generated almost $2 billion in EBITDA in the past 12 months and returns cash to shareholders in the form of a dividend, is absurd.

<comment><USER7>
        > but the idea that it doubled in value in less than a
        > year and is worth almost as much as say Marriott, which
        > owns real estate, generated almost $2 billion in EBITDA
        > in the past 12 months and returns cash to shareholders
        > in the form of a dividend, is absurd

Unless you believe (which I don't, but whatever) that it poses an existential threat to Marriott, and that it will essentially kill all non-business (and some percentage of business) hotel bookings with time; it's also got the advantage that I've heard people say "just Airbnb it" or "just use Airbnb", but I've never heard anyone say that about Marriott or the Hilton...

<comment><USER6> I work in finance (hedge fund management) and my wife works in sales for big pharma. I've never heard any of our rich, yuppie friends say "just use Airbnb." It's more like "Where did you stay?" "The Four Seasons" Anecdotes are worthless.

<comment><USER8> Mcdonalds carved out a pretty good niche not catering to your yuppie friends.

<comment><USER9> yuppies eat plenty of mcdonalds. primarily breakfast/coffee, and salads. they 'pivoted' away from only junk food a few years ago after the supersize me fiasco and have done quite well with it. have you seen an mcdonalds at 8am in a business district? it's like a fuckin' crime scene.

also, when yuppies get drunk in the city... all bets are off.

<comment><USER10> Err, McDonalds is significantly declining and their CEO is stepping down this weekend: [http://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-ceo-is- out-2015-1](http://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-ceo-is-out-2015-1) Don't assume what you see locally is how things are at a macro level.

<comment><USER9> LOL look at their stock price and market cap over the past 15 years you simpleton.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Interesting since Homeaway (AWAY), who is probably their most direct competitor has a market cap of around $3B, a P/E of 220, on annual revenue of $450M. I'm curious what Air BnB's revenue and growth numbers are; gotta be pretty impressive.

<comment><USER6> According to [http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023038021045794510...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303802104579451022670668410) revenue in 2013 was $250m. If you assume that doubled annually and now stands at $1bn, and that Airbnb has a similar profit margin profile to HomeAway, you need a crack pipe to get to a market cap of $20bn.

<comment><USER12> Or an understanding of exponential growth rates.

I also notice that you created your account just now, presumably to comment on this post. Who do you work for?

<comment><USER6> Yes, companies grow exponentially indefinitely regardless of addressable market size.

I must work for an Airbnb competitor, or a large hotel chain. Because everybody knows that astroturfing on HN is the best way to stop a company dead in its tracks.

<comment><USER12> How large is the market for short term housing, and how close is airbnb to saturating it?

I didn't say you were astroturfing, but I am curious what motivates you to create an account for the purpose of commenting on this story.

<comment><USER6> A huge chunk of the short term housing market is corporate. You're talking about stays of 30+ days and you need to book multiple rooms regularly with a single phone call. That's not Airbnb's sweet spot. The pricing in this market is also pretty competitive. I know because the investment bank I used to work at used corporate housing and the rates we negotiated for rooms in Manhattan were much better than what you can get on Airbnb for Manhattan.

If you want a publicly traded comp for short term housing, look at Extended Stay. $1.2bn in revenue. About $500m in EBITDA. $4bn market cap. And it offers a 3% dividend yield.

As for my motivation, you want the truth? It's Friday night and my wife is out of town. I had a long week and instead of sleeping with one of her boring girlfriends like I usually do I'm trolling you on HN.

<comment><USER13> "the rates we negotiated for rooms in Manhattan were much better than what you can get on Airbnb"

Which is why AirBnB's business is much better.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Airbnb is to hotels what Uber is to taxis. Not wise to compare to valuations of established businesses in one vertical.

<comment><USER15> Please explain what you mean by "Not wise to compare to valuations of established businesses in one vertical."

<comment><USER16> The poster meant that Uber and Airbnb don't have the same cost structure as the existing behemoths in their respective industries so the valuations aren't comparable. For example, Airbnb doesn't need to pay rent for their properties and an unfilled vacancy doesn't typically cost them anything.

Another issue is that Hilton, Starwood, and most of their competitors operate so many properties in the US that they are very sensitive to exchange rates and evolving travel preferences: [http://www.cnbc.com/id/102435380#](http://www.cnbc.com/id/102435380#).

<comment><USER15> That makes sense. Thanks for explaining.

I think all these things also affect AirBnB but through the hosts. I guess AirBnB can have relatively fixed costs of operation (with volatile revenue) which is probably better than having volatile operational costs.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER17> Who has gone public at valuation greater than $20B? Facebook?

Is Airbnb a bigger company than Facebook?

I just don't understand how these late stage investors think someone is going to take them out of their trade at a higher valuation.

Here's a table of recent IPO's. I have to do the math to get to the market caps, but I don't think any of them is above $20B.

[http://www.renaissancecapital.com/ipohome/pricings/priced.as...](http://www.renaissancecapital.com/ipohome/pricings/priced.aspx)

In short, where is the greater fool for these late stage valuations?

<comment><USER16> Alibaba ended their first day at about $231 billion and I haven't heard anyone say they were 10x overvalued lately: [http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/19/alibaba- shar...](http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/19/alibaba-shares-price- americas-biggest-ipo)

Other big ones include UPS ($60 billion), AT&T ($58 billion), Facebook ($81 billion), Kraft ($54 billion), GM ($49.5 billion), and Visa ($44 billion) plus a bunch of non-US ones. This article has a great table of them: [http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/09/05/alibaba-biggest- ip...](http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/09/05/alibaba-biggest-ipo-by- market-value-of-all-time/)

<comment><USER17> Other than Alibaba and Facebook, none of your examples are start-ups. There are many more $20B private valuation companies right than there are historical examples of such companies making it to IPO.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I don't understand the majority of the comments in this thread. Airbnb is the definition of a fast-growing, take-over-the-world kind of startup that has been amazingly successful. How can you even begin to compare it to a hotel chain with super-tight margins, or some random bubble company with no profits and no sustainable business model?

Have you ever used Airbnb? I'm not affiliated with them (other than as a user), but: welcome to the future. How can you be surprised it's a $XXbn company?

<comment><USER19> You can compare. Airbnb has more inherent risk to be disrupted than an existing hotel chain. It's illegal in places and some could argue that, while the sharing economy is the future, it won't be eternally brought to you the providers operating today.

And to answer your question: I used Airbnb once and would be very reluctant to use them again because of customer support issues, and I have thick skin that way.

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> Others have explained it in more detail but these valuations are distorted because the newly issued securities usually have higher seniority and liquidation preference compared to those previously issued.

<comment><USER21> And often it's convertibles or outright debt, senior to any equity.

So the question for those pretty smart investors who have trouble finding good places for their money is not if AirBnB is or will be worth 20B, but rather 1-2 billion.

</comment></comment><comment><USER22> EXPEdia has a market cap of 11.82B, is airbnb really this big?</comment>


Show HN: Syncr lets you check email, Facebook, Twitter, send SMS all in one app. - <AUTHOR>

Syncr lets you check email, Facebook, Twitter, send SMS all in one app. Swipe right / left to quickly catch up on content for the day.<p>http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/syncr-sms-email-facebook-twitter/id534866624?mt=8 <comment><AUTHOR> Clickable: [http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/syncr-sms-email-facebook- twit...](http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/syncr-sms-email-facebook- twitter/id534866624?mt=8)

</comment><comment><USER2> <http://news.ycombinator.com/submit>

</comment><comment><USER3> It's a test.

<comment><USER4> What's it supposed to test?

<comment><USER5> The UI.</comment></comment></comment>


Fighting erupts on India's border with China, three Indian soldiers killed - <AUTHOR> https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53061476 <comment><USER2>
      https://twitter.com/AmitShah/status/459742388949241856</comment>


Where Boys Outperform Girls in Math: Rich, White and Suburban Districts - <AUTHOR> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/06/13/upshot/boys-girls-math-reading-tests.html <comment><USER2> Except given the data they provide, boys in middle class families also seem to be doing better than girls.

Boys in general like math more than girls. Math is a competitive exercise and women are in general less competitive than men. It's you vs the formula, at least at the level of grade school math. There's less room for error than a subject like Literature which is more open to interpretation, where assignments often can't be "wrong", at least in an obvious way.

I believe that striving for equality in math outcomes, especially at high levels, ignores the way many women think.

</comment><comment><USER3> 95th percentile boys will outscore 95th percentile girls, so if your school district is affluent and full of high IQ parents, you'll have boys' average outscore girls' average because you've got a lot more 90-100th percentile kids.

</comment><comment><USER4> So I'm quite confused by this article's emphasis on boys outperforming girls more in richer school districts. If you look at the scatter plot, girls outperform boys in English by a much larger margin.

<comment><USER5> The fact that girls outperform boys academically is relatively well known. The article is about the (lesser known) fact that the math gender gap is correlated to the socio-economic status of the district, while the English gender gap is not. Which isn't to say the overall gender gap isn't important or interesting, it's just not what the article's about.

</comment></comment><comment><USER6> it seems strange that the one intersection of economic status and subject that boys excel at is being attributed to environmental factors like gender roles(which western culture is seeking to reduce/eliminate) but there is no investigation to the massive discrepancy in the reading gap.

>High-income parents spend more time and money on their children, and invest in more stereotypical activities, researchers said, enrolling their daughters in ballet and their sons in engineering

>The gender achievement gap in math reflects a paradox of high-earning parents. They are more likely to say they hold egalitarian views about gender roles. But they are also more likely to act in traditional ways – father as breadwinner, mother as caregiver

>There is also a theory that high-earning families invest more in sons, because men in this socioeconomic group earn more than women, while low- earning families invest more in daughters, because working-class women have more job opportunities than men.

When boys start outperforming girls, the authors attribute it in part to parental bias towards boys, or societal expectation, but girls succeeding across entire economic ranges in reading is just par for the course.

Even at the end of the article the focus is on undoing what the authors consider to be the boys' edge in mathematics by balancing expectations between genders (read, encourage girls and manage boys expectations) to increase achievement for girls, even though they admit these expectation support boys flourishing just slightly.

>One way to boost achievement in math, researchers say, is to avoid mention of innate skill and stress that math can be learned. Another is to expose children to adults with different areas of expertise, and offer a wide variety of activities and books. Gaps are smaller when extracurricular activities are less dominated by one gender.</comment>


Daring Fireball: The iPhone 4S - <AUTHOR> http://daringfireball.net/2011/10/iphone_4s <comment><USER3> I don't think we (tech people) appreciate just how magical the public is going to find Siri.

Most people have never used voice recognition beyond shouting "Call Dave Jobs[1] Mobile" in the car. This is going to be perceived as magic, in the same way as the accelerometer in the Wii or the original finger touch interface. Anyone with a 4S is going to be showing this off to their friends, and I can't wait to try it.

There are parallels with people saying 'Touch has been around for years, but people prefer buttons' when the iPhone came out. True - until someone did it right. And now everyone wants touch.

And yes, I know it's been around on Android. But Apple make you WANT to use it. No-one's ever been bursting with excitement to show me their Android voice recognition stuff, and nor have I been wetting myself to try it out.

On the downside for Apple - improvements to the iPhone for the foreseeable future look to be on the software/web server side. They are vulnerable here. Limiting features to new models is going to piss people off, and fighting patent battles on software is much, much harder.

[1] Funny typo - I meant to type Dave Jones. Only noticed this on rereading the post.

<comment><USER4> Siri has been out since 2010 on the app store. Is there any reason (other than Apple's push with building it into the operating system) that users will take more notice of it now than they have in the last (nearly) two years?

<comment><USER5> Simply getting it in front of more users might make the difference. It's also a lot more tightly integrated I would assume.

<comment><USER6> A lot, yes. Apparently you can just hold the phone to your ear in order to activate it.

<comment><USER7> From the videos I've seen it looks like it launches via holding down the home key and at least for some command separation you need to hit the "talk" button with the Siri application.

<comment><USER8> There are two options to activate Siri: use the Home button, or just put it to your ear, as if you were talking _on_ your phone rather than _to_. The second option can be disabled, but it's there and enabled by default.

<comment><USER9> That'll make me use it in public more. Genius move.

I'm just too shy to walk down the street and talk to my phone without it looking like I'm talking to someone.

<comment><USER10> The no button option will rock for my Mom, no button - less problems.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><AUTHOR> Me: "Set an alarm for 9 AM."

Siri: "It's set for 9 AM."

Me: "Change that to 10 AM."

Siri: "I changed your alarm to 10 AM tomorrow."

Me: "Cancel that alarm."

Siri: "I deleted your 10 AM alarm."

Me: "Thank you, Siri."

Siri: "Your wish is my command."

It seems this thing is really fun to use. I can't wait to try it out.

<comment><USER11> I can't wait to try stuff like this: "Remind me to fix Amy's glasses when I get home."

Does its understanding of location extend to more than just home is the address I entered for myself? Exploring its capabilities will be really interesting.

Siri's understanding of context is what makes it so useful. Pair it with Watson and it'd be unstoppable. (Wait, no! We've seen how that movie ends.)

<comment><USER12> It works based on geofencing, which allows you to specify and label regions.

<comment><USER13> And that just means keeping your GPS turned on the whole day. Sure, I always dreamed about losing all my battery charge to such an insanely great feature.

<comment><USER14> You may want to wait and see how this feature really works.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> Even though Siri seems to be amazing I wonder whether people will use it much in practice. Voice is intrusive in the environment and annoying to people who aren't part of the conversation. Sitting next to someone conversing on the phone in a public space can be irritating but imagine how jarring it will be if the person next to you barks commands out loud at random intervals.

Him: "Remind me to pick up my dry cleaning."

You: "Huh? You talking to me? No..."

Later: "After picking up my dry cleaning, I want you to book me a flight to Tucson"

You: "I'm finding another seat..."

<comment><USER16> This was what it was like at the beginning of mobile phones and then again at the start of bluetooth headsets.

People get used to it pretty quickly (but will always hate it on trains and planes).

<comment><USER17> My rule of bluetooth headsets: the more often you wear it (when you're not on a call), the more likely you are a douchebag.

It's held up fairly well, even as bluetooth adoption has increased.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER18> I wonder how they'll handle different grammar constructions in different languages.

For example, in English, "Text my girlfriend that I'm coming home later" would send a message with "I'm coming home later".

However, in Dutch, saying the same thing "SMS mijn vriendin dat ik later thuiskom" should result in a text with the content "Ik kom later thuis", requiring labeling all parts of the sentence.

<comment><USER19> It might not even work in Dutch. From the webpage:

"Siri may not be available in all languages or in all areas, and features may vary by area".

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> How to determine which of the several 3rd party API's to use seems pretty straight-forward to me:

Me: Search for Japanese food.

Siri: I found these 5 results on Yelp nearby.

Me: Search for Japanese food on Foursquare.

Siri: I found these 8 results on on Foursquare nearby.

If you explicitly request a certain service often enough, then Siri should start to default to it. That's exactly what a real world personal assistant would do. In fact, Apple doesn't have to be that creative. Just do what a real personal assistant would do in any given situation and you should be good.

Also, I would really like some reviewer mention if the iPhone 4S has less of a rolling-shutter issue as the previous iPhones do.

<comment><USER21> The challenge is specifying which subsets of queries should be directed to the service. Foursquare won't be able to handle appointment requests, but it does handle restaurant requests. How does the Foursquare part of Siri specify this?

Perhaps you're suggesting that all services answer all queries, and then there's some sort of ranking on the results from each service to decide which one responds. Foursquare would give a low score answer to appointment queries, so the calendar app would get preference. This would be the best suggestion I've heard, but requires processing every request against every agent, which may be OK for Apple, but only some independent developers would be able to provide their own hardware. They may have to provide software to run on Apple servers...

<comment><USER20> Any company that wants to provide "Siri-compatible" services registers on the apple developer website. Apple defines a set of services that it believes customers will be asking for (appointments, location-based recommendations, product-recommendations, weather, stock data, general search, etc...) and each provider can register their API endpoint and the query types they support. It seems that they already do this categorization to determine what to use (the built-in stock app for example) for a given query. Siri-compatable devices will regularly ping apple for a list of supported API endpoints and report back to Apple on how well these endpoints are performing on query speed and user adoption/satisfaction.

That's all just my guess of course...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Does anyone know how well Siri performs if your accent is from outside of the States?

<comment><USER23> I have a friend from Scotland who has just ordered a 4s and is really excited about Siri. I'll be interested to see how it gets on with his thick Dundee accent (especially since I can barely understand him half the time!).

<comment><USER22> Yea this is the problem I'm not sure that they've solved. There are loads of regional accents in the UK, and only one setting in the language options called 'British English'

<comment><USER24> Well everyone from the UK sings with an American accent (except the Proclaimers, of course) so I don't think must adjustment will be needed.

<comment><USER12> You need to start listening to some better UK bands.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER25> As a keen cyclist I'm really looking forward to trying Siri, but after reading the footnote I can now actually see myself using it anytime:

"You might wonder, Hey, don't you feel like a jerk walking around the city talking to your phone? But here's the thing: Siri, by default, kicks in when you hold the iPhone up to your ear, so you can talk to it and it looks like you're on a phone call."

</comment><comment><USER26> Siri paves the way for the _display-less phone_ † - smaller, lower energy use

Context switching could be done like short-cuts: when you open an app it captures (most) shortcuts; and you can reallocate short-cut bindings. These are easy improvements. Just think of both voice and touch interfaces as having grammars.

Wolfram|Alpha's natural language interface is endlessly annoying for me - <USER2> think Siri would also get into trouble with more complex requests (but there's plenty of value in it before that limitation comes into play)

†this neologism could well go the way of the _horse-less carriage_

</comment><comment><USER27> The humor in some of the responses is a really nice touch; perhaps something I didn't expect from Apple, who is fairly straight-down-the-line with their dialogs and software.

Saying that, it's actually appreciated, and does a great job at attempting to establish an emotional tie with the user.

<comment><USER28> The humour is classic Jobs. When he introduced the original Macintosh, it began with a speech synthesizer telling a joke. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-XwPjn9YY&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B-XwPjn9YY&feature=related) forward to 3:20

<comment><USER12> That was actually written by Steve Hayden ([http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story...](http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Intro_Demo.txt&topic=The%20Launch&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium))

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER12> "The most profound difference between the 4S and 4 cameras has nothing to do with image quality. It's that you don't have to wait nearly as long. [...] Even better, image quality is better, too."

Jeez Gruber, make up your mind :P

<comment><USER29> Maybe I'm not running enough apps, but my iPhone 4 has always seemed pretty damn fast getting to 'ready to take picture'.

That said, I'm really looking forward to the additional speed in the 4S and Siri.

</comment></comment><comment><USER30> Does anyone know if there are cues that remind the end user to use Siri? (eg. "you haven't used Siri in a week," or something of that nature). This feature, since it is primarily hidden behind the home button, might be forgotten by the average user.

As Mr. Gruber stated, once he got it into his workflow, he missed it when it was gone. However, I think one of the biggest hurdles to mass adoption will be getting it into the workflow of the average user.

Anyone have ideas of how to address this problem? Or do you think the product video is enough?

<comment><USER12> Given they have similar situations with finder, multitasking, folders, deleting apps etc. I suspect they're just going to rely on people remembering the feature's there.

<comment><USER30> I think those are a bit different. For all of the actions you mentioned, there is only one way to complete the task (eg deleting an app). With Siri, you can also accomplish any of its functionality using the traditional UI. Therefore the user has to remember to use Siri.

However, your point is well taken. Maybe I'm not giving the average user enough credit.

<comment><USER12> True, I hadn't considered that for a lot of those there isn't any other way.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER31> Loved the ending. "The one and only disappointment I have with the iPhone 4S is that the shutdown spinner animation is still low-res. That's pretty low on the list of nits to pick."

</comment><comment><USER32> Shame it can't read emails, but then I guess there is so much crap in an email it just wouldn't read well...

<comment><USER33> The voice synthesis is really nothing new, it has been part of iOS as VoiceOver (Apple's built-in screenreader, an accessibility feature) for a long time. It certainly wouldn't have any problems reading emails and it seems to me that emails tend to be less random than text messages.

Maybe they wanted to keep the interaction short to give it more flow? Siri doesn't really ever seem to read very long stuff to you.

<comment><USER32> True, I guess the modern language used in text messages could cause problems, however with the lengh of signitures and message history indentation that I get in a lot of emails, I could see them being an issue.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER34> I just hope it can handle accents or at least learn to handle them over time.

</comment><comment><USER35> So is it legal to hold the phone to your ear and talk to Siri while driving?

</comment><comment><USER36> An even smaller nit to pick is that nits are ordered by size, not count.

</comment><comment><USER37> Siri was originally an App, but it took a huge amount of effort to get it to work. I believe the reason the feature is exclusive to the iPhone 4S is due to hardware.

Apple said the processor in the iPhone 4S is the A5. This may be the exact same chip in the iPad 2, or it might be the same _class_ of chip. Apple doesn't detail the internals of their processors, so they can make device specific versions and call them the same thing if they want. Thus, this A5 could have co-processors in it that didn't exist in the one for the iPad 2. Specifically, I remember there begin something about an image co-processor that the camera uses, and it seems logical that there might be some video encoding or at least video feature extraction being done in hardware to enable 1080p video. (a big step up from 720p).

There may well be a feature extraction engine in the A5 to turn the audio recording of your voice into a series of symbols that are much more efficient to send over the wire to the SIRI service.

But, even if there are no co-processors, voice recognition is a very CPU intensive process, and the A5 has another CPU in it, as well as a greatly improved GPU. Either or both may be required for the current version of SIRI (which is more complete than the original) to work.

Thus it literally may be the case that Siri wouldn't run on the iPhone 4.

<comment><USER16> There is a signal processor in the iPhone 4 A5. Phil Schiller mentioned it briefly in the keynote when talking about the camera (64 mins in).

Schiller referred to it as an "Image Signal Processor" so it may be that it is custom silicone for used only by the camera but it seems more likely that it is a more general DSP and was badged like this for the presentation.

It is probably a version of ARM's NEON technology:

<http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/neon.php>

      NEON technology can accelerate multimedia and signal
      processing algorithms such as video encode/decode, 2D/3D
      graphics, gaming, audio and speech processing, image
      processing, telephony, and sound synthesis by at least
      3x the performance of ARMv5 and at least 2x the
      performance of ARMv6 SIMD

Which directly mentions both image processing _and_ speech processing.

Update: According to wikipedia that's exactly what it is:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A5>

      The A5 contains a rendition of chip based upon the
      dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore CPU with NEON SIMD
      accelerator and a dual core PowerVR SGX543MP2 GPU.

Their source is the reliable AnandTech:

[http://www.anandtech.com/show/4216/apple-ipad-2-gpu- performa...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/4216/apple-ipad-2-gpu-performance- explored-powervr-sgx543mp2-benchmarked)

Also, the corresponding A4 page makes no mention of NEON or DSP:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_A4>

Interestingly, as this is the iPad A5 being discussed it strengthens the argument for Siri-on-iPad2 (assuming the signal processor is key to Siri working efficiently).

<comment><USER8> > Also, the corresponding A4 page makes no mention of NEON or DSP

NEON is included in the A4's Cortex A8. In fact, NEON was added back in the 3GS: <http://wanderingcoder.net/2010/06/02/intro-neon/>

Only the 2G and the 3G don't have it.

<comment><USER16> Well, that blows that theory out of the water!

So does the iPhone 4S have a different kind of DSP, too?

<comment><USER8> I fear I have no idea at all. Sorry.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> Well, it's Apple's next model since the Grip of Death problem, and no word if it's fixed.

Talking to my phone is nice, and so is a fast camera, but it's tragic that this beautiful sleek device has to be wrapped in an ugly rubber band for me to make a call!

[Edit] Well, this article says it's been fixed with two antennas. I really don't like how they downplay the problem and act like it only affects ham- fisted gorillas. When I have just two bars, griping the bare metal with four fingers is enough to make the signal too weak for communication.

<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2394178,00.asp></comment>


The Weird World of Vegan YouTube Stars Is Imploding - <AUTHOR> https://www.thedailybeast.com/vegan-youtube-is-imploding-as-stars-like-rawvana-bonny-rebecca-and-stella-rae-change-diets <comment><USER2> This has been going on for about a year, when someone started posting Ex-Vegan Dokumentations, where people talk about why they aren't vegan anymore. Then there is Frank Tufano who's been beating on vegans for a while. It has bred some kind of conspiracy theory where they blame big corp and govt for promoting the vegan lifestyle with the aim to make people stupid and emotinally fragile. Then, to add to it, big corp seems to be annoyed by more people turning to keto and have been promoting sugar water and fruit smoothies in Germany. (I've seen 2-3 adds where it explicitly says: "ignore keto, eat balanced, dring our sugar water vitamins" or something in that jargon.</comment>