Ask HN: 8 years working, now 3-4 months off to learn. Looking for advice - <AUTHOR> I have a Bsc in Software development which was extremely practical and light to non existant on real math or algorithms. Since then I have done very well as a contractor programming mainly in java building webapps for your typical enterprise shops, banks, big energy providers etc.
Now at age 33 I'm considering taking 3-4 months after this contract to take the following 3 courses:
- http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-042j-mathematics-for-computer-science-fall-2010/Syllabus/
- http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-006-introduction-to-algorithms-fall-- 2011/Syllabus/
- http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-046j-design-and-analysis-of-algorithms-spring-2015/calendar/
I want to stop contracting and apply to a company solving real problems after this process, google, facebook, zalando, amazon, etc..
I have always felt terrified of the google interview process, or any test on a whiteboard for that matter.
In the 3 months, I plan to work 6-7 hours a day and get a tutor 3-4 times a week on chegg.com. If I have time left I would also like to work through cracking the coding interview.
Would love any feedback on this idea, i.e. if I'm missing the mark, or picking bad courses it's best to know now. <comment><USER2> If your goal is be employed by a large company with a "Google-esque" interview model, your time will be much better spent working on your interviewing than on learning a broad base of CS knowledge, because that's not what they're going to be testing you on.

Cracking the coding interview is pretty good, but you'll go crazy if you just try to work through it straight without any other content to broaden your perspective.

I'd suggest doing challenges on Topcoder, Hackerrank, etc. to help reinforce the concepts. These questions are very similar in format (if not content) to those you'll see in your interviews, so it's helpful to get thinking in these kinds of modes.

If you're not already comfortable coding on a white board, or talking and coding at the same time, you'll want to work on those as well. Even some simple rubber duck programming will be useful.

Note that the above is probably not going to be anything new to you - you've probably already read this in a bunch of other blogs you found while googling. I repeat it only to reinforce its accuracy.

<comment><USER3> Seconded. Learning basic CS concepts will be more useful in the long run but for the specific goal of passing google-style interview you are better off practising directly for that.

All suggestions here are great but don't forget that whiteboard coding is the main part but not the only part of the interview. Practice answering architecture questions (conveniently, they can be practised without actually building any services) and other types of questions (find out which ones).

Also think hard about your goal. "Getting into Google" is too abstract. Google has all sorts of teams, from the ones doing hardcore legacy maintenance to the ones doing some crazy cutting-edge stuff. The catch is that competition to get into more prestigious ones is crazy. Try to figure out (don't know how to do it though) if you have a chance of making a team that does something that you personally find interesting, or you are bound to be disappointed.

<comment><USER4> > Practice answering architecture questions

What are some good resources to learn about system architecture?

<comment><USER5> Microsoft Application Architecture Guide [https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/ff650706.aspx](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en- us/library/ff650706.aspx)

Domain Driven Design (The book is hard to read, but worth it I think) [http://martinfowler.com/tags/domain%20driven%20design.html](http://martinfowler.com/tags/domain%20driven%20design.html)

This uncle bob talk is not too bad [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpkDN78P884](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpkDN78P884)

I think the microsoft guide is the most comprehensive, but don't limit yourself to it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER6> WTF is wrong with this industry?!?

You have 4 months to train for a better job and the best advice is to spend the time studying interview techniques??

I'm not criticizing anyones post here, but the industry in general. That's where we are? Teaching to the test??

I know, I know, "interviewing is broken" and "that's the way the big companies evaluate you" and all.. but geez! Is anyone else bothered by this? Isn't it possible to get a good job at a good company based on your skills & knowledge rather than interview-ability?

I can understand an argument of "well, OP wants to get into Google, and this is the best way", but maybe that means that sights are set too high... maybe it should take longer than 4 months to get a job at Google. Am I taking crazy pills?

<comment><USER7> And here I thought your second line was going to be along the lines of "why do you think Google, Facebook, and Amazon are solving 'real' problems?"

I have encountered that point of view several times "I'm spending all my time writing this stupid app that collects purchase orders from one data base and puts them in a shippers database, I want to solve real problems like putting mustaches on the pictures of all my friends in Facebook!" _That_ is when I have my WTF moment. Airlines desperately need to upgrade their systems, _that_ is a real problem that affects people every day, but who is aspiring to work at the airlines in their IT department?

<comment><USER8> If airlines guaranteed a Google-like working environment/salary/tech and no Office Space-like management like I assume they have, I'd definitely be interested. I think most of us have prejudices against other industries and companies that aren't tech centric.

That said, I agree with you. Plenty of other industries that affect people's lives every day need our talent.

<comment><USER9> "Google-like working environment" You mean colleagues full of themselves, colorful furniture and lousy work/life balance? I think you are a bit prejudiced against non-software house companies. It's not that bad (according to my experience). Neither are software houses full of dream jobs (SW game industry anyone?)

<comment><USER10> "Work environment", "culture fit", etc. are usually just euphemisms for "your boss."

As in, if you're interviewing and an applicant says they left their previous position because it was a "bad work environment" or a "bad culture fit"—they're saying they had a horrible boss. And if someone says they're looking for a place with a "better work environment," what they're looking for is a place where their boss will defend them against outside interests, won't micromanage them, won't force them to waste their time on work that won't get used, etc.

I suppose that the people saying this may not even _realize_ they mean this—most people don't put much thought into how much of the everyday experience of "work environment" is controlled by what your manager does or doesn't do for the team.

But this is why people will describe places that might seem cloying and unappealing as having a "good working environment": they mean that you're likely to work under someone that knows what they're doing.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Short answer:

Understand all of Cracking the Coding Interview. Surround yourself with other developers who know the material well.

Long answer:

The big 4 hire thousands of engineers a year.

They have an interview process that brings in developers who can "get the job done". What I mean by this is that 99% of those thousands of developers won't be building anything groundbreaking.

Before you decide you want to work for these guys ask yourself why you want to work for a big company.

Is it:

\- To get away from contracting - do you feel trapped?

\- You're not learning any more or getting anything out of contracting?

\- You just want to try something different?

\- You want to work on a specific team in a specific company because their problem is interesting and unique?

Another thing that's interesting - you say the interview process terrifies you.

You need to ask yourself why it scares you.

A lot of the time when something terrifies you it means that you need to expose yourself to it.

Ask yourself:

\- What's the worst that could happen? (you fail the interview and you're in the same place as you were today, just with more experience)

\- What do I lose by going into one of these interviews without being prepared (you can't interview again with this company for a year)

\- What do I gain by going into one of these interviews without being prepared (you get a feel for how the interview process works)

Don't be afraid of failure - it's the key to success.

<comment><USER10> > Before you decide you want to work for these guys ask yourself why you want > to work for a big company.

The bigcorps are the only people hiring here (Vancouver, BC) that pay anything sensible. :/

</comment></comment><comment><USER12> All of this sounds a bit pre-meditated to me. If you are a "planner" then perhaps this will work for you. The alternative is to just GO NUTS! and pick up whatever random stuff you find interesting TODAY and dig in there. Most of these roads lead to rome, and if you find something that makes you curious, even though you have no idea why, that curiosity is likely to make you 10 times faster at absorbing/processing (and creating) new ideas.

For example, you want to do some graphics programming, maybe a raytracer, and that leads to thinking about projective geometry and linear algebra and whoah, a few years later all of that stuff is useful when you end up in a machine learning job. (maybe)

But back to the plan, if that's your thing. All the blog posts that complain about the "interview process" seem to be about how they don't understand dynamic programming. So, put that at the top of your list! (And by the way it is loads of fun.)

<comment><USER13> Yes! GO NUTS! Scan the web for most advanced tech and dive in... choose what is attracting you most... try to deeply understand all that -> will be much better for your future work, than math/algorithm courses you mention... BUT if these courses are attracting you most, dive in there and understand them very well!

</comment></comment><comment><USER14> I am going to start at Google in two weeks. Having recently passed Google interviews, I would give you the following tips:

1\. Unless they contacted you at LinkedIn or you know someone at Google who can refer you, the most difficult part is actually getting an interview.

2\. Apply as soon as possible. They don't mind scheduling an interview 3 months in advance and they will send you preparation material and they will be able to answer questions. (This is specific to Google, I would not do that at most other companies).

3\. Check out Quora they have a ton of information about the Google interview process. Also some info, but not so much about other companies. That shouldn't matter because the preparation is mostly the same.

4\. I don't think it's a bad idea to follow courses as well. At least for me it would motivate me more if I learned something of value in addition to just getting a job. However, unless you are interested in it, don't worry about Math.

5\. As others I would recommend to work through the book Cracking the Coding Interview. I also found the website interviewbit.com helpful. It's similar to leetcode, but they organize the questions by topic and gamified it. This helped me to stay motivated.

6\. Also prepare for system design questions. Those are equally important as coding, algorithms and data structures for candidates that have industry experience.

7\. Do mock interviews. Ask friends, otherwise there is a YC startup called Pramp.com. They allow to do mock interviews with peers for free. There also services that let you do payed mock interviews with people that actually work at big tech companies.

8\. Don't be naive about what impact you can have working at big companies like Google. You are going to work on a small subpart.

<comment><USER15> Please stop with all this "I survived the Google/Facebook interview process" for god sake. These type of comments are written by an HR employee or an Evangelist promoting the company. There are some amazing Engineers working in those companies, but some mediocre ones as well. Believe me, I worked with a lot of them. Apple, on the other hand, is an exception. They are all outstanding.

My advice: Develop your curiosity. Be adventurous. Travel around the world and learn about other cultures. Then, find a company where you are happy, the smaller the better.

<comment><USER14> Did you even the read the question and my post (specifically the last point)?

Before joining Google now, I traveled though South East Asia for 1 1/2 years while freelancing and worked for a startup for 2 1/2 years. I wouldn't recommend it unconditionally, nor would I recommend working at Google unconditionally.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER16> Since your goal is to clear interview at Google (or companies with similar interview style), I would recommend straight up interview preparation.

I have recently found "Elements of Programming Interviews" [1]. For people with 5+ years of experience trying to clear Google style interviews, this is the perfect book for following reasons:

\+ The quality of problems is much much better than the other two books popular in this category ([2,3]). I am not saying problem are hard, but they found a right balance between quality and solvability in interview setting. \+ The solutions are methodical and of high standard. For experienced people, problems in [2,3] may appear too dumb down. \+ It has some 260 or more problems covering various areas of CS. By going through this book, you should get CS fundamentals and interview prep in one shot.

I have all three books but strongly recommend EPI

[1] Elements of Programming Interviews [2] Cracking the Coding Interviews [3] Programming Interviews Exposed.

I have no affiliation with authors/publishers of [1]

<comment><USER17> [3] is a good newbie book. It explains basic problem solving techniques and introduces the basic problems/algorithms that many questions are derived or built on top of.

[2] has a good soft skills section and is a medium difficulty workbook. I felt that Gayle did a poor job explaining the solution to the problems. I used the book in a guess and check manner.

[1] wastes little time explaining the basics and ramps up very quickly. It does a very good job of explaining the problems, although there is an assumption that the reader is advanced. Some problems are so difficult that they would never appear on interviews.

If you're starting out fresh, I recommend the sequence: [3] -> easy leetcode -> [2] -> medium leetcode -> [1]

</comment></comment><comment><USER18> I do not want to discourage you but these companies hardly solve "real problems". Yes they might be challenging and more prestigious but you will probably end up just working on better ads targeting.

I mean I do not want to underestimate your skills and intellect but look at what happened to Geohot and I believe he is above your average MIT/Stanford graduate

<comment><USER19> What happened to Geohot? Any links?

<comment><USER20> "The First Person to Hack the iPhone Built a Self-Driving Car. In His Garage" [http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self- driv...](http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-george-hotz-self-driving-car/)

<comment><USER21> That looks like quite a bit of hype for someone who has not done too much as of late.

Cracking the iphone was great, but disparaging top notch organizations (Carnege, Tesla, Vicarious, etc.) sounds more like narcissism than reality.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> Here are some of resources you can use for learning CS topics related to interviewing. You don't have to do all of them, do as per whatever combination suits you.

For learning Algorithms and data structures for interviews

1\. Coursera courses on Algorithms by Prof Roughgarden

2\. Coursera courses on Algorithms by Prof Sedgewick

3\. OCW 6.006 as listed above would be good too.

4\. Prof Skiena's algorithms course

5\. Berkeley CS 61b by Prof Shewchuk for refreshing basic Data structures like Linked list, tree traversals which are not covered in above mentioned courses.

For practice,

1\. geeksforgeeks.org

2\. leetcode.com

3\. interviewbit.com

4\. careercup.com

5\. Hiredintech.com

6\. topcoder, hackerrank , spoj etc are good sites for practice in general but their problems are embedded with extraneous information not seen in interviews. For example, interviewer is not going to explain you 2 page story, instead he will tell you directly what needs to be done.

In books,

1\. Cracking the Coding Interview

2\. Programming Interviews Exposed

3\. Elements of Programming Interviews

Books on Design Patterns

1\. GoF

2\. Head first design patterns

3\. Software Architecture books by Robert Martin

4\. Elements of Enterprise Architecture Patterns by Fowler

5\. System Design research papers, gainlo.co has many design questions

</comment><comment><USER23> With your experience in so many application areas, I doubt that so much theory oriented learning would be of much benefit. You are more likely to be hired for your domain knowledge.

Based on your plan, you would become better versed in several areas of theory, but still limited to being a Java programmer - which in turn will probably lock you into the enterprise space. Unlikely to give you real problem solving opportunities.

@grobaru hit the nail on the head. The established firms you list are either going to hire you for your general programming knowledge or for a specific project. In the latter case domain knowledge and experience is going to be valuable.

I think you need to revisit your goals. What industries do you prefer to work in? What domain knowledge do you bring to the table? Look at what languages, frameworks are used in those areas and then get some experience with them. And have you considered startups? Their mission and problem domain(s) tends to be more focused than the big companies.

</comment><comment><USER24> I'm a mod on Reddit's /r/cscareerquestions, and we get questions like this so often that we created a specific weekly "Big4" thread to address them.

Even if your BS in SW had been heavy on math, it wouldn't likely matter much now that several years have passed where you haven't used that education.

As others have said, practicing for the type of interview you'll be subject to at these companies is probably a better plan than taking a bunch of online courses.

My concern is that you seem to equate "solving real problems" with only a handful of companies, and it turns out that those companies are somewhat known to all have this particular interview style which will require you to memorize algorithms and data structures (even if you _won 't_ use those skills on a daily basis at that job).

Essentially, you're talking about taking a few months to prepare for the interview that most entry-level candidates with "Big4" aspirations prepare for after graduation.

Another option would be to consider whether there are other companies solving real problems (of course there are), and whether or not these other companies would subject you to the same style of interview (probably not).

Other companies won't interview the same way, and still solve big problems. I'm not sure if this is something you'd considered, but thought I'd throw it out there.

<comment><USER25> This answer in particular makes sense: don't go with the names, becaue they often hire brilliant people, and you're doing really dull things. Have a search round old HN posts and discussions about that. A smaller or medium sized more tech-oriented (rather thn advertising and huge custimer numbers) company might serve you better! Or perhaps a real startup

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> I think it's a great idea to study algorithms and math for CS, and that OCW is a very good resource. Also consider taking a Coursera course on algorithms. One taught by Tim Roughgarden started Aug 8. [1] I haven't taken the class, but I've met Tim and seen him talk. He's both extremely intelligent and a dynamic speaker.

I wouldn't prepare specifically for the interview yet. I know that others are very skeptical of the algorithms interview, but I conducted it myself many times, and I'd like to defend it. When done right, the goal is to see how you think about algorithms. I didn't care about whether you jumped to the solution as much as I wanted to hear you think out loud.

My goal was to decide whether I could see myself developing a new algorithm with you as a peer. For many interviewees who lacked a former CS background, the answer was clearly, "No." You need to have a basic and intuitive understanding of Big-O notation, and you need to be able to develop an algorithm yourself. These courses will teach you exactly that (though you absolutely must do the problem sets as well).

Now, it is true that the interview process has its own quirks. So, get experience. Apply to a bunch of jobs, and try to setup interviews with other companies before you even have a phone screen with a company you really want to work for. As with developing algorithms, nothing beats experience. However, I really believe that this step should be secondary to learning the fundamentals. They truly are the basis for the rest.

[1] [https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithm-design- analysis](https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithm-design-analysis)

</comment><comment><USER27> If you think the glory of the big co awaits you, you'll be sorrily dissapointed. I worked for one of the companies listed, it was a shit show. Stick with startups. Do what you love. The only way to solve real problems is to be close to them. And most likely Big Co will put you near a black hole that will swallow you up.

<comment><USER28> I echo that. If you really want to go near BigCo's, then try getting in there as a consultant/contractor so you can hover above all the infighting and politics.

</comment></comment><comment><USER29> Check out the Recurse Center. Their sessions are normally about 3 or 4 months. I am not an alum, but I think you could meet some good people, learn from them, and maybe get some good career perspective. It is free but you would have to find a place to live in NYC.

<comment><USER30> This is a great advice. Recurse center (former Hacker School) is a great way to spend 3 months and will get you exposed to so many different fields of our industry. In my batch, there were people making lisp interpreters, robotics, toy operating systems, solving project euler, etc.

They also have a lot of great residents, people who come in for a week to hang out, give talks and workshops, such as: Peter Norvig and Evan Czaplicki.

If you want to spend 3 months making yourself a better programmer/engineer, Recurse Center is one of the best places to do that.

</comment></comment><comment><USER31> Amazon engineer here.

Before I worked here, I read Steve Yegge's posts on interviews at Amazon and Google. You cannot get information more straight from the horse's mouth.

I also agree with the general point that you are better off doing interview prep than your general undergrad algorithms courses.

But the catch is that interview prep will lead you back to CS fundamentals anyway. This is a both/and, not an either/or.

The other thing I wanted to address is whether working at Amazon can be practical and cool.

My team is the full stack physical rentals team. When you press a Rent-Now button on Amazon.com, you enter my team's world. Today, we rent physical textbooks to millions of students every semester, and they all get returned at the same time.

We own custom checkout, order management, and return customer experiences. Underlying them is a service ecosystem we built and maintain. To handle the seasonal, spiky nature of our business (back to school, Christmas vacation returns), we use AWS to scale up and down during peaks.

Success breeds success, and we're working on category expansion. Twenty engineers in three teams run the software for this business. That is cool.

There is an incredibly broad spectrum of work going on at Amazon, from mammoth services to front end optimization and everything in between, including unfortunately some very unhappy firefighting operations. Undergirding it is heavy company investment in builder tools and infrastructure, and excellent engineers.

One person's cool is another person's depressing, but I would look at the job listing carefully before writing off a stint at any of the Titans of software.

</comment><comment><USER32> I think the first question to ask, before you set off on this, is "what happened when you interviewed with google that scared you so bad?"

If the answer is "well actually I haven't tried yet, but I hear it's really scary" then maybe a better plan is to _go interview with google_.

They really want to find people who are good at programming computers, which you seem to be. They want that even more than they want to humiliate people with impossible algorithm trivia, believe it or not.

Seems like you might save yourself a few months of no fun, and end up landing your dream job in the process.

<comment><USER33> Well if he doesn't get the interview at Google, he'll probably need to wait at least a year and a half before he can try again. So a few months of boning up on the material could save him a year and a half wait before trying a second time.

But generally you're right, he should apply sooner than later. But it's not worth it without feeling pretty solid on the material that's public knowledge that they quiz you on.

(I'm someone who only had a week and a half to prepare for my interview at Google and I don't recommend that little preparation)

</comment></comment><comment><USER34> In your 3 months, make sure to limit the scope of what you expect to learn. There is just so much out there, and when you start learning about one thing, that will lead you to another, and another, and another... so be selective about which "rabbit holes" you go down.

</comment><comment><USER35> > I want to stop contracting and apply to a company solving real problems > after this process, google, facebook, zalando, amazon, etc..

The bigger the company, the smaller the feeling of doing something 'real'. Just my experience.

<comment><USER33> Although the smaller the company, the greater the chance you're going to be working on "It's like Facebook/Instagram/Twitter, but...", with nowhere near the time or resources to even do it properly.

</comment></comment><comment><USER36> Not meant to steal your thread, but any advice on picking up good contract work? I'm in the exact opposite situation you're in.

<comment><USER37> start hitting the phones, buddy. there's no secret trick to getting work, it's called sales.

<comment><USER10> Better phrasing: how do you pick up contracting work if you have absolutely no connections?

I'm not a particularly social person: I mostly just like staying home and working on coding projects in my off-hours. I didn't made friends or "expand my network" at my last few jobs; I just showed up, did work, and went home.

People always say "do contracting to save up money if you want to do a startup", but I have no idea how to get off the ground. I certainly have a lot of skills, but I'm not sure who I could possibly sell them to.

Is this when I just start cold-calling? I get the sense that nobody on HN is ever really bothering with inbound marketing for contracting services; I constantly see "programming talent is a seller's market" and "just use your network", but never anything about running ads for your services or anything.

<comment><USER37> here's how i did it: start responding to job ads and offer contracting services instead. local or remote.

it requires being social and talking to people. if you can't do this, just get a normal job, dude. you're barking up the wrong tree. nobody just sits around and gets contracts handed to them. anyone who tells you that is bullshitting you.

<comment><USER10> Oh, I'm not saying I _can 't_ be social. I'm just saying that I _wasn 't in the past_—because of some wrongheaded assumptions—and so don't have a network to build off of.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER38> You can "solve real problems" as consultant too, you just need to marketing yourself different.

But yes, learning new things is always good. I too 1 1/2 year off to do a master degree in CS.

</comment><comment><USER39> these are things I might consider if I was in your situation: 1) build something that you think will force you to learn whatever data structures and algorithms you want to learn. Two benefits; learning and having something to show for it 2) ask someone to do mock interviews with you to practice 3) take the coursera ML course - fascinating, useful, marketable skill and hard to do unless you have a couple of months free to dedicate 4) network. Coffee with people IRL regularly

</comment><comment><USER40> I am curious where you get all those contracts. Isn't it always easier to get an employment, compared with, for example , finding customers, listening to client requirement, dealing tax form, drafting contract, etc?

</comment><comment><USER41> I can't really comment on any of the courses, but taking a few months off to learn and recharge sounds like a great idea if you can afford it.

However, the problems solved at Amazon, Google and Facebook aren't necessarily more "real" than what you're solving now. Google also builds a lot of Java webapps. Sure, there are many advantages to working at these companies, but be aware that you most likely won't end up on the team that builds the algorithms for the self driving car or the machine learning powered object detection for photos.

</comment><comment><USER42> I think a top down approach is much better, practical and actually interesting than diving into theory directly. To that end, there are two books that I recommend - Programming Pearls by Jon Bentley & Algorithm Design by Jon Kleinberg and Eva Tardos. These books cover a wide variety of important CS aspects starting with extremely practical problems and scenarios. They are more narrative in style with very limited maths formulas and diagrams, but don't be fooled by that because they are expository, which is often superior to simply following a dry mathsy problem solution theorem proof style. (The Klienberg book says in the preface that it is meant for students who have completed two semester standard CS course, and even includes some proofs, but you may skip those without losing any insight into the solutions or techniques.)

These books really pique your interest, and after finishing them you will see the big picture and find sufficient motivation (problem solving wise), and may venture into following proper undergraduate courses with proper textbooks. You might even like to quickly read through Skiena's The Algorithm Design Manual as an intermediary step. This book is a proper 'engineer's book' as in it is basically a catalog of algorithms and data structures with advise and illustration of where to use what.

With this approach, you won't be needing a tutor and can gain a lot by self studying at your own pace.

</comment><comment><USER43> I've been professionally been developing for 10 years, and I stay a contractor because the hiring process of companies depresses me.

When there is a CS person interviewing me I get depressed because I know they are going to do a sanity check on CS things and I will fail because I don't have Big O memorized.

Why it depresses me is if they say, they want to scale postgres, I can come back to them with a working model, and I may utilize CS like-things, but since I can't remember textbook answers its gates me from jobs.

<comment><USER44> I hate to be /that/ guy but Big O isn't something to memorize. It's a way to evaluate algorithms. You can memorize Big O for certain patterns of code but there are ways to trip you up if you do this. (One example I came across was a for i < n loop, printing out a recursive Fibonacci function. If you memorize Big O you would be tempted to say O(n*2^n) but if you reason through it, it ends up being O(2^n).) So it's best not to memorize Big O.

I used to be in the same boat but after working past that initial anxiety and getting started in CtCI and Skiena's algorithms class to further my CS fundamentals, it turns out that the stuff being asked in interviews aren't that too hard. (this is a huge generalization)

</comment></comment><comment><USER45> The thing I would get into if I were in my early 30s would be DevOps. No matter what you build, it should be going through a pipeline to the cloud. And more and more that pipeline is managed by developers.

This is called vertical integration, by the way. Instead of spending your time learning more and more about the arcane details of programming, you might be much better off learning more and more about how and why people ask for programs to be created -- and what happens to them after they're coded.

</comment><comment><USER46> Additionally, I'd recommend "Introduction to Functional Programming" [0] by Erik Meijer.

Depending upon your areas of interest, you might also want to look into related open source projects and attempt to contribute. Chances are that you'll learn a fair bit in the process.

[0] [https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-functional- programmi...](https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-functional-programming- delftx-fp101x-0)

</comment><comment><USER47> Personally I think you would learn more from solving algorithm puzzle problems independently than taking algorithms and analysis courses.

A couple that come to mind are Project Euler [1] and CodeKata [2].

The problem with most courses is that they teach the very basic types of data structures, a couple search algorithms, etc but not enough. They didn't give me the intuition I was looking for.

Alternatively, the most recommended books I've seen for your use case are _Programming Interviews Exposed_ (PIE) [3] and _Cracking the Coding Interview_ [4].

[1]: [https://projecteuler.net/](https://projecteuler.net/)

[2]: [http://codekata.com/](http://codekata.com/)

[3]: [https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Interviews-Exposed- Secret...](https://www.amazon.com/Programming-Interviews-Exposed-Secrets- Landing/dp/1118261364)

[4]: [https://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Coding-Interview- Programming...](https://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Coding-Interview-Programming- Questions/dp/0984782850)

</comment><comment><USER48> Depending on how much else you have going on in your life, and how much of that 8 years of salary you saved, you might want to consider getting an engineering degree and gaining some domain specific knowledge; I doubt a few more general CS courses will dramatically change the types of problems you will be considered to work on. I can't speak for you, but most people's concept of "real problems" means that there is a simple and direct way in which they can see people in society benefiting from their work, and those problems tend to get domain specific in a hurry. i.e. if you want to get to work on improving the water people drink or the air they breathe, you're probably going to need to know some chemistry. An upside of being an engineer who also happens to be a good programmer is that your interviews won't be pure coding interviews.

</comment><comment><USER49> Good luck first of all. Sounds like you've done well for yourself thus far.

If you got the savings, I would say go for it and take the time to learn. I don't know how helpful the math for computer science course will be but understanding various algorithms is useful for general knowledge and especially for interviews. Once you know basic algorithms, start on cracking the coding interview, hackerrank etc.

Lastly, I would say the grass is always greener on the other side, so don't disregard all you have accomplished and all that you will continue to do. If you think you will enjoy a job at a top company, go for it, but don't do it because you think what you are doing is inadequate.

</comment><comment><USER50> Google's HR Chief likes to boast in his book, that it's harder to get a job at Google than it is to get accepted at Harvard.

Gaining cutting-edge skills sends a strong signal to the market. And can make you more attractive to recruiters.

Don't overlook the professional network piece of making new friends and contacts amongst your fellow students. Those individuals often have inside tracks to hidden opportunities.

Here's a review of Laslo Bock's Work Rules > [http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-work-rules-by- laszlo...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/book-review-work-rules-by-laszlo- bock-1428361249?mg=id-wsj)

</comment><comment><USER51> Funny because i saw this today. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12260512](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12260512)

I don't work for amazon but yeah i work in one of the so called top 4 companies.I got lucky to get into a good project. But talk with some google employees and you will be surprised to see how many engineers work on some pretty mundane stuff inside of google.

Still i can't process the thought that the OP is not solving real world problems right now as a contractor and would be doing some sort of a dream job after he gets through the google interview process.

What exactly is a real world problem?

</comment><comment><USER52> Having a solid Computer Science background is a must! So do the courses if you think your CS base is not solid enough. Then, solve the "Cracking the Coding Interview" problems all by yourself, hesitate to look at the solutions until you really tried them out. Here is a great resource to prepare for big companies, like Google: [https://github.com/jwasham/google-interview- university](https://github.com/jwasham/google-interview-university)

</comment><comment><USER53> Need I even mention that if you're looking to broaden your horizons in programming, you may want to try 6.001/SICP? It's hard, but you'll probably learn a lot.

</comment><comment><USER54> I've conducted hundreds of technical interviews, mostly at Google. It bothers me a lot when I read comments here saying that tech interviewers are just testing trivial knowledge or for memorization of obscure algorithms. (And some are, but they're bad interviewers.) As if you need only memorize the right magic spells, and bang, you're in.

</comment><comment><USER55> 4 months is a decent chunk of an MS. Just saying.

</comment><comment><USER56> I took 042 and 006 simultaneously, and wish I'd have just skipped 042 altogether. I'd seriously consider jumping straight into 006, and adding something else (SICP, 6.945, learn a new language, or commit yourself to a personal project).

</comment><comment><USER57> I did something similar and in retrospect I wish I had developed a solid routine and stuck to it from the outset. When you're suddenly in direct control of most of your time, it can get easy to get lost in the weeds.

<comment><USER58> Any recommendations?

</comment></comment><comment><USER59> Just read [http://www.businessinsider.com/best-selling-online- classes-u...](http://www.businessinsider.com/best-selling-online-classes- udemy-2016-8?IR=T)

</comment><comment><USER60> Maybe think about traveling internationally, and doing some of this in your downtime on the road. You'll learn a lot seeing how things are done in other countries.

</comment><comment><USER61> I'm curious, by 'Zalando' do you mean the online fashion store? If so I'm interested to know what makes you group them with Google, FB and Co.

</comment><comment><USER62> I would say find a freelance job from a site like Upwork and work there. You don't have to re-learn everything again.

</comment><comment><USER63> This is a good idea. Go for it.

</comment><comment><USER64> Meditate.

</comment><comment><USER65> Courses are good but not enough. Definately read cracking the coding interview as you wrote and the most important is to solve hundreds of problems on hackerrank, topcoder and similar sites. I think it takes maybe half year to get there, still be prepared to survive for at least a year (optionally move to a country with cheap cost of living). I don't know any tutors as I always prepared alone (and employed by one of these companies)</comment>


Alf.io: open-source ticket reservation system - <AUTHOR> http://alf.io <comment><USER2> That landing page needs a brief description of what this actually _does_ , and links to more detailed technical docs -- features, requirements, use cases, etc.

Knowing that it's all fluffy happy Open Source is Nice to Know, but shouldn't be the First And Most Significant Selling Point.

Post based on one of my popular early HN comments:

"Please Forward to Marketing: How to present your products to customers (or would-be customers)"

[https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/27d5xr/please_...](https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/27d5xr/please_forward_to_marketing_how_to_present_your/)

<comment><USER3> Lead dev here, thanks for the feedback. The new website is WIP, it will contain more info and a comprehensive user doc. Preview: [https://alfio.netlify.com/](https://alfio.netlify.com/) Any feedback would be highly appreciated.

<comment><USER4> Interesting project.

The site alfio.netflify.com needs some responsive breakpoints set for mobile as some of the text section widths > 100% on mobile.

Let me know if you need some help :)

<comment><USER3> that would be fantastic! We do need all the help we can get.

The website is generated using hugo, you can find the code along with some basic instructions here: [https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/tree/master/website](https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/tree/master/website)

looking forward to your PR :)

<comment><USER4> By the way I noticed the demo page says to enter an email address and password. I assume that means any email and password should work. But it fails with an unknown user error.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> If you are interested in this because you are organizing a conference you might like _frab_ [1]. It is a free and open source conference management system that is primarily used by the Chaos Computer Club for Chaos Communication Congress and other conferences.

[1] [https://github.com/frab/frab/wiki](https://github.com/frab/frab/wiki)

</comment><comment><USER6> I am in the event ticketing business. It currently feels like a new provider appears every other day as the entry bar is very low. The tricky parts start when you realize how diverse event organizers' needs actually are.

Nonetheless, as a result there are many user-friendly alternatives to the few big names available nowadays. But it's a slow moving market and it will take some more time for them to win the trust of large organizers. I am sure, though, the change _will_ come.

<comment><USER7> If the big names weren't so predatory, invasive, and abusive maybe there would be less pressure to avoid them?

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> If you want to make a dent in the ticket market, come up with a solution that Burning Man will adopt. Their system almost never performs correctly. Every year something new goes wrong and thousands of people take to online forums to complain about bugs such as being kicked out of queues or not having their preregistration links work at all. If someone can earn BM's business, then they'll likely get a ton of business from their regional network of smaller events.

<comment> the-dude Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> Alternatively, this is what ccc has been using for their events, like the congress, for a while now.

[https://github.com/pretix/pretix](https://github.com/pretix/pretix)

<comment><USER10> The enterprise pricing is way out of reach for the African market

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> Hopefully someone "disrupts" the events and ticketing industry. Buying a ticket to anything has been hell lately. Terrible UX and 10/20$ of added random fees (Ticketmaster, Live nation, etc ...).

I sadly bet that this is more a business issue than a technical issue.

<comment><USER12> You'd want to take a deep dive on how arena entertainment works. Here's the headline:

Live Music is a loss leader for alcohol sales.

95% of the gate goes to the acts, and some of the alcohol depending on whether you are jimmy buffet or not.

Like 3rd party insurance, no one is really in a position to care about the ticket experience or expense.

The artist cares about getting the right venues and the right tour routing.

The venue cares about getting the right artists with the right age groups.

And thanks to vertical integration a company that owns the largest ticket service, manages acts, manages tours and owns festivals, nightclubs AND arena venues... well, ticketing is doing just fine.

There's no one really to leverage a new solutions. source: friend was former ceo of tickets.com

<comment><USER11> Thanks for the good overview. It's exactly what I thought: a mix and match of different incentives that makes it pretty much impossible to change the current system.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Followed the link expecting to see an open source support ticket solution. I quickly remembered that there are other types of tickets...

</comment><comment><USER14> The try it now asks for an email and password with no way to know what to put in there or sign up for anything.

<comment><USER15> I believe it accepts anything. I used firstname.lastname@example.com with example.

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> relevant: [https://pretix.eu/about/en/](https://pretix.eu/about/en/) , which is used e.g. by the 36C3

</comment><comment><USER17> I like the concept and it looks like an interesting project, however still AngularJS + Bower for the frontend? You could probably benefit a lot from switching to Angular > 8, I have done it for several projects and it's totally worth it. If you need help let me know.

<comment><USER18> Hi,

You are right about angular. We already have done 50% of the work, as we have the "customer" facing part done in angular 8 ([https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io-public-frontend](https://github.com/alfio-event/alf.io-public- frontend)).

In the next release (M3) we will convert the "admin" part too (we are targeting a new frontend built with angular material) :)

<comment><USER17> Awesome! Didn't notice the client frontend, great job!

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER19> Congrats on show ! Why should i use this instead of free eventbrite ?

<comment><USER3> if you're happy with their terms&conditions and privacy policy, and you don't need to print badges on-site, then there's no reason to change. Otherwise, we offer you an alternative :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER20> PostgreSQL database with 25k Java/Spring codebase locked into Stripe APIs.

I guess it will fit some people's use cases, but my impression of Java is that refactoring anything, like changing from Stripe to some other payment provider, will take months.

<comment><USER21> It supports PayPal: [https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/blob/master/src/main/j...](https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/blob/master/src/main/java/alfio/manager/payment/PayPalManager.java)

And Revolut's business API: [https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/blob/master/src/main/j...](https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/blob/master/src/main/java/alfio/manager/payment/RevolutBankTransferManager.java)

So adding new payment methods can't be that difficult

<comment><USER20> Paypal took from May 12 to July 28 ([https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/issues/77](https://github.com/alfio-event/alf.io/issues/77)), and Revolut took from March 18 to April 8 ([https://github.com/alfio- event/alf.io/pull/622](https://github.com/alfio-event/alf.io/pull/622)). Maybe "a few weeks" is a better estimate for the difficulty, but it's certainly not a weekend project.

<comment><USER18> Hi, one of the devs here. I would like to clarify that this project has been developed as a side-project, it's not (at least, during that timeframe) our main work.

So don't take the time to develop a feature as a 100% full time work :)</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Study: why pot smokers are skinnier - <AUTHOR> https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/05/study-why-pot-smokers-are-skinnier/275846/?single_page=true <comment><USER2> A few years ago, the thought occurred to me that a lot of christians are overweight, and I came up with hypothesis: since many indulgences are considered by many as forbidden, the remaining indulgence of food might tend to be overused. I focused on alcohol, since many christians (especially in the south) think it's sinful to drink alcohol. I looked up maps of alcohol use and maps of obesity. I didn't do the work to combine them, but looking at the maps side-by-side, it appears my hypothesis may be correct: [https://www.evernote.com/shard/s5/sh/18dbb20c-29bb-412d-8d5d...](https://www.evernote.com/shard/s5/sh/18dbb20c-29bb-412d-8d5d-f146153253df/738b00740091218b).

My hypothesis for pot would be the same - pot smokers may be less tempted to eat food all the time since they're getting their kicks from pot.

<comment><USER3> > A few years ago, the thought occurred to me that a lot of christians are > overweight

Perhaps this is a regional thing? Its certainly not universally true around the world.

<comment><USER4> It's hard to be overweight when you are starving.

<comment><USER3> I can't imagine the thought process that would generate this comment. Could you elaborate a little more? I'm genuinely curious.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER5> I adhere to the ironclad rule that before committing suicide, I get stoned, put in a good 1.5hr aerobic and resistance workout, eat a couple slices of pizza, take a nap, feel great.

16 years ago, before adopting this rule, my strategy for coping with stress was to eat and watch TV or play video games. It was pretty obvious to me where that road ended. Weed is my gateway drug to a healthy lifestyle + pizza. It's illegal, but so is everything, so who even cares? I'm in good shape and I don't have to worry that there's no way out when stress piles up, which it still does. I gave this same advice to a friend suffering from stress in grad school. He was clearly in trouble... I invited him to spend the weekend in the countryside with me, shooting broken equipment and smoking up, but he felt he had to study. He killed himself at 8:30pm that Sunday evening. Psychology is counter-intuitive. Weed can be the key to being more intelligent at a healthy weight. The correlations found in the study may be explained by this. I think they are, in my case. Alternatively, perhaps weed just addled my brain and made me a successful and dedicated coder, entrepreneur, and machinist, by some insanely unlikely chance. Perhaps even it caused a marijuana-related tumor that is powering me? That would be copacetic.

<comment><USER6> You're stoned aren't you? ;)

</comment></comment><comment><USER7> what's incredible is that their caloric intake is significantly higher ~ 600 calories per day!! That would be enough to make one gain 50 lbs a year, and they're saying these people were less fat and better and regulating blood sugar. This really is a mystery that deserves to be solved.

I would guess, their metabolism is massively increased.

</comment><comment><USER8> "IMPLICATIONS: Although they're not sure exactly how it happens, write the authors, these findings suggest that marijuana somehow works to improve insulin control"

The title is incorrect. The why is unanswered and still unknown. The article simply states that there appears to be a correlation.

<comment><USER9> I forget what the term for this body type is, but basically; there is a type of person who's body turns food into calories extremely well. This is beneficial to the brain, as it is a huge consumer of calories.

The downside to this body type is that the brain is always very active; it always has lots of calories to draw from. Makes for great programmers and problem solvers, but also leads to poor attention span and insomnia.

So my theory is that marijuana is a dampener on the brain for these people. It doesn't improve insulin control, it's just that people who like to use marijuana tend to have fantastic insulin control. The logic being good insulin control = noisy brain = marijuana use.

I don't think you could prove this, you'd need some way to quantify noise in the brain.

<comment><USER10> > The downside to this body type is that the brain is always very active; it > always has lots of calories to draw from. Makes for great programmers and > problem solvers, but also leads to poor attention span and insomnia.

Interesting - that part about overactive brain, short attention span and insomnia matches ADHD very nicely.

In my case, since I began using stimulants to treat ADHD, my sugar cravings disappeared and weight stabilised. In the past I used to overeat, because it calmed me down.

<comment><USER8> What stimulants are you referring to? Are those subscription/recipe based?

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> I guess pot cookies and cup cakes wouldn't have quite the same effect :P

</comment><comment><USER12> I'd like to know if these people also smoked cigarettes.

<comment><USER13> > I'd like to know if these people also smoked cigarettes.

While that seems like an obvious factor, I'm sure there are other factors too.

For instance, people getting high on cannabis probably won't drink as much beer or other forms of alcohol. This probably contributes to a generally lower weight.

<comment><USER14> I smoke cannabis and drink red wine am not overweight. Don't really exercise. Cannabis definitely helps alleviate built up stress.

<comment><USER15> I smoke and drink beer, but the difference is I drink fewer beers when stoned than I typically do when sober. I'll probably drink three or four depending on the day, but if I'm stoned, I might drink one beer? Maybe two? Typically though it's zero.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


TextBlade - <AUTHOR> https://waytools.com/ <comment><USER2> I really want this keyboard, but I will wait until they start shipping to see user feedback. It looks too good to be true, and the delays only make me think they are still not solid.

<comment><USER3> _Start_ shipping? I first saw this on reddit over a year ago, same video, basically same website. Can't believe they are still taking orders, but haven't shipped. I actually thought it was a released product back then!

Looking at the reddit sub, it looks like early adopters are pretty disgruntled too.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> It's a shame the page is totally broken, at least on my Chrome browser. CLicking on anything just tries to go to [https://waytools.com/undefined](https://waytools.com/undefined).

<comment><USER5> You're not missing too much. The page looks like something from the late 90s that is trying to look like Prodigy.

<comment><USER6> The impression I got of the website was that it looks like it was built by a smart, hard working, and creative person who is way out of touch with industry standards and best practices. It looks like it was designed in a vacuum.

<comment><USER7> Put bluntly as I suffer from the same problem: It looks like it was made by a programmer.</comment></comment></comment></comment>


Google indexing DDG search results - <AUTHOR> https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aduckduckgo.com+intitle%3A%22at+duckduckgo%22 <comment><USER2> And?

Their robots.txt allows it [1] -- it only disallows URL's with a question mark in them (i.e. GET parameters) and none of the indexed pages have that:

      Disallow: /*?

And Google is indexing pages like:

      https://duckduckgo.com/Boeing

So not sure what the point of this submission is?

[1] [https://duckduckgo.com/robots.txt](https://duckduckgo.com/robots.txt)

<comment><USER3> Yeah, the [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robots_exclusion_standard](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robots_exclusion_standard) dates from a more civilized time, when URLs were more, erm, _uniformly_ structured.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Google has a policy of not indexing search results so these will probably be removed although technically there's nothing wrong here.

</comment><comment><USER5> It would probably be more conspicuous if they didn't.

</comment><comment><USER6> If you look at the cached Google page, you will see that Google is only indexing the knowledge panel, not the results themselves. E.g [https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:t8Z5T9...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:t8Z5T9lBLDQJ:https://duckduckgo.com/Database+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)

<comment><USER7> Looks like the query results come from a url that includes a ? and therefore they are blocked by the robots.txt "/*?" rule. [https://duckduckgo.com/d.js?q=%C5%8Ctsuchi&t=A&l=wt- wt&s=0&c...](https://duckduckgo.com/d.js?q=%C5%8Ctsuchi&t=A&l=wt- wt&s=0&ct=US&ss_mkt=us&vqd=3-98318517210371365151044395550013262794-162317560025750407458371726853926388732&p_ent=&ex=-1&sp=0&v7exp=a)

</comment></comment><comment><USER8> Have you ever thought, maybe that's how DDG intended it? small time search engines like DDG have no luxury to block any potential routes of people discovering them, especially through Google. I would even bet they are doing "SEO" to optimize their search results for Google.

</comment><comment><USER9> Is their robots.txt valid? [https://duckduckgo.com/robots.txt](https://duckduckgo.com/robots.txt) # No search result pages Disallow: /*?

<comment><USER10> It is valid, and so are Google's results as the URLs don't contain a question mark.

</comment></comment><comment><USER11> It almost looks staged.

</comment><comment><USER12> It's weird that there some subtle defensiveness here. To heck with robots.txt and what not, when a site touts it's privacy, even this, however irrelevant, is slightly eyebrow-raising.

<comment><USER13> How does this in any way reflect on either the privacy of DuckDuckGo (I don't think they ever claimed or even vaguely implied that if I search for, say, Banana, no one else will be able to see the results page for Banana, as that would be absurd), or Google, who are simply indexing publicly accessible pages, which is what they've always done since coming into existence.

What violation of privacy or hint thereof is happening here?

<comment><USER12> None. Thus my question of why the Curt responses and passive aggression. DDG has positioned itself as the anti Google and lo and behold Google still finds out what's being searched there, though not necessarily who searched it. If you're a bit cynical, it's vaguely interesting.</comment></comment></comment>


History of Interrupts - <AUTHOR> http://virtualirfan.com/history-of-interrupts

<comment><AUTHOR> I wrote this article to look back at the fundamental underpinnings of computers. Would love to hear comments from others about this history.</comment>


'It's techno-racism': Detroit is using facial recognition to make arrests - <AUTHOR> https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/16/its-techno-racism-detroit-is-quietly-using-facial-recognition-to-make-arrests <comment><USER2> Facial recognition technology with some error rate doesn't seem like a huge problem for police since they can always manually review the video later to make sure it's the same person.

<comment><USER3> These aren't gov't controlled on virtually all cases. All of the data ends up on private servers, under private control, and by a company that is probably not even in the same state. Just with the ability for the executive branch to access it.

Likewise these probably have deals written close to red light cameras where pay is based on get a % of the fee/fine/ticket. Meaning both the state and the company have incentives to be as abusive as possible.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> Real people can misidentify anyone as well, "colored" or not(using their terminology). Does it stop becoming racist once it becomes good enough? Or should we stop arresting any POC suspects because we might make a mistake?

I think we can make a lot better arguments against the use of facial recognition by the government and particularly law enforcement than racism.</comment>


Show HN: Watch your daily paycheck accrue in real time - <AUTHOR> https://codepen.io/SummitBC/pen/RVMPpX <comment><AUTHOR> Dumb little thing I made after work. Thought some of you might appreciate it. I think the checkboxes are broken on iPhones, sorry.</comment>


On DataCamp and sexual misconduct - <AUTHOR> https://juliasilge.com/blog/datacamp-misconduct/ <comment><USER3> One part that I would like to discuss is how people as individuals rarely would act badly in such situations, but companies almost always act that way.

Now I don't know the answer, but I believe this question is part of the core of the issue. In some ways companies are systems structured in a way that protect toxic individuals, and this protection is executed by normal people in their daily jobs. If you interview these people they might not feel guilty and might not even be able to tell how they participated in something immoral. And if they knew they wouldn't have participated. But it still happened. In fact you yourself might even participated in this protection scheme unknowingly in a job you did in the past.

What I'm not interested in is unconstructive blaming and flame wars between different sexist groups. Anybody interested in some serious discussion? I'll write my opinion on the matter if I have the feeling discussion is possible and enough people are interested.

</comment><comment><USER4> It sounds a lot like the mob has decided someone needs to get fired. Despite not knowing the specific details and despite a third party investigation concluding that reprimands and sensitivity training was sufficient.

I don't know what "inappropriate contact" was, in this instance, but for all I know it could have been an executive doing a dance and twirling around a secretary. After which she reported that she didn't like that.

Is that inappropriate? Yes. Should you get fired from your position because of it? No. You sit down as adults and talk it out. Of cause the mob could also be right and he might have jumped on a woman doing a lab dance and attempted to rape her. But I'd expect the third party investigation to make judgement on that which it seems they did, but he mob isn't satisfied because the third party didn't reach their foregone conclusion.

I wonder what the victim has to say? Has anything been shared? Or first party accounts on the incident? Or is all the coverage just vague indirect references to something no-one reporting was actually involved in?

<comment><USER5> I constantly feel like American workplace culture is evolving very fast in order to avoid people ever having to sit down like adults and have potentially difficult and stressful talks.

(Of course, "sitting down and talking" might be impossible, depending on the severity of the incident - but how are we to know in this case?)

<comment><USER6> Other DataCamp employees did "sit down like adults" and talk about it.

[https://dhavide.github.io/a-note-to-our-commuity-on- building...](https://dhavide.github.io/a-note-to-our-commuity-on-building- trust.html)

[http://third-bit.com/2019/04/15/an-exchange-with- datacamp.ht...](http://third-bit.com/2019/04/15/an-exchange-with- datacamp.html)

They got fired because of it.

<comment><USER5> And _now_ I feel like I have something to go on instead of just arbitrary vagueness and claims that I should be able to discuss the issue without knowing what the issue is. Thank you!

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Who is dumb enough to add a noindex directive to an apology post after a hundred of your employees complain about one of the most-discussed problems in our society and think that no one will notice?

The bad behavior, or at least the tolerance of it, is coming from the very top of this organization, and to miscalculate on something like this signals incredible incompetence/complicity.

<comment><USER8> I can't say I'm surprised. They're a bunch of data science people. Thinking about how to not let embarrassing things get indexed by scrapers is probably second nature to them in the same way that chaos engineering is second nature to plenty of programmers. I bet the question "should this be indexed" is the data scientist equivalent of "how could a malicious user exploit this".

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> So, does anybody know what happened there?

Did the "C level executive" just drunkenly hug an employee or he was dancing naked on a table dangling his carrot in front of the victim's face?

</comment><comment><USER10> > at an informal employee gathering at a bar ...

Why don't companies just get rid of these "informal" but _sanctioned_ employee gatherings, particularly in a bar environment where intoxicating substances are likely being administered as well? That's just a magnet for these sorts of problems as are detailed in OP's blogpost. The workplace should be a temperate environment.

<comment><USER11> It occurs to me that could be precisely the goal of these groups. It certainly adds a new element of risk to hosting any kind of event whatsoever when you can face such an organized PR campaign for something that may have happened between two people at your event.

<comment><USER12> I understand that alcohol culture can vary drastically in different nations, but I find it a very valid question to ask why drinking excessively should be part of any professional work environment.

The theory people have given me as validation for such event is that such social activity outside of work make people cooperate better and form some kind of kinship. Personally I would like to see some research if money invested in event at bars is worth it.

<comment><USER13> > to ask why drinking excessively

How did we go from just 'an informal employee gathering at a bar' to now 'drinking excessively'?

<comment><USER12> Let me give an example of a professional gathering last December, where CEO's, marketing, and people responsible for the technical operations meet yearly from several companies.

First there is the presentations with coffee breaks. normal stuff. A mix of technical, legal and marketing changes for the industry.

Then we go down to the bar and have a beer or two and a glass of sparkling wine before we get seated. Two large glasses of wine while eating, white and red, more beer, and offer for refilling several times through. Once everyone has finished their meal it is time for hard liquor and desert as is traditional near Christmas. Four, five, six additional rounds, with singing.

This is why I address the alcohol culture as being important factor. Professional gathering like those sets the norm when people meet in informal gatherings.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER13> Why are these posts always so impossibly vague?

What's happened? What does she think has gone wrong? Why does she think should be done about it?

People struggle so much to get the basics across in their writing! I have to follow a long trail of equally vague posts like an archeologist to understand what _happened_.

<comment><USER14> The one thing that isn't relevant to this post is the details of the original offense. Their objections to the resulting outcomes stands apart from the details of the original offense, and their focus on those outcomes is permissible and appropriate when one desires to avoid creating a pitchfork mob.

EDIT: See also [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19713970](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19713970)

<comment><USER5> Is the original offense not relevant, though? I mean, how many of the people crying foul on DataCamp's treatment of the issue actually _know_ the details of what happened and how many are just forming a pitchfork mob anyway without proper information?

How is it possible to determine whether DC's response was adequate or not without knowing what happened?

<comment><USER14> The original offense is not the subject of this post. Attempting to make it the subject of discussion is a derail. HN is not here to pass judgement on whether a specific person's accusation of personal misconduct is or is not valid. HN is here to pass judgement on whether a organization in our industry responded with an appropriate process when an accusation was made.

Based on the "noindex", I would say that they are not following an acceptable process, no matter the veracity or lack thereof in the accusations levied.

If I were to discuss the specific accusations in an attempt to pass judgement on their veracity, I would expect to be flagged and eventually warned or banned by the mods.

<comment><USER5> "HN is here to pass judgement on whether a organization in our industry responded with an appropriate process when an accusation was made."

How can it be determined if judgment was appropriate with _absolutely no reference_ to the facts? That is like saying that we should be able to determine whether it was right or not to imprison a criminal without knowing what crime they committed!

Yes, the "noindex" is an issue, but this feels much bigger than just that.

<comment><USER14> There are two sets of facts in play:

1) Something happened between some people.

2) Something happened when an organization associated with them responded.

It is totally fine to discuss #2 without discussing #1. They are an organization, not an individual, and their quality of response should remain high regardless of the specifics of #1. The post judges the quality of their response to be unacceptable. That judgement is valid to consider and discuss without regard to the circumstances that causes their response to exist.

<comment><USER5> I agree that discussing #1 beyond what is strictly required to be able to assess DC's response would qualify as derailing, however I respectfully disagree that "It is totally fine to discuss #2 without discussing #1".

I believe that, to assess the quality of the response, it is required to understand what was the level of severity of the event. How the event should be handled, and hence the response, is a function of the severity of the event.

Of course, if we view the response as being to a broader "climate of suspicion" surrounding DC, it can be assessed differently - but it still would require contextual information for assessment, specifically regarding what circumstances have created this climate of suspicion in the first place.

While some actions on DataCamp's part - specifically, the noindex tag - <USER2> definitely shady, it is difficult to understand whether their response (which seems to be mostly to attempt to reassure the data science community that they are listening and focused on being a positive actor in the community) is appropriate or not without understanding what they are responding to.

<comment><USER14> I am sorry that you have difficulty evaluating their response without knowing the original story. Unfortunately I will not budge.

EDIT: Someone suggested I've overstepped here somehow. I don't understand how but regardless I apologize; it is not my intent to demean nor otherwise speak less of you. We disagree and I wanted to honor that but also close the thread and I may have done so badly.

<comment><USER5> No problem at all. I am not attempting to change your opinion (which I understand is well-reasoned), but to explain my own.

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> "I think it's likely that DataCamp management thought or hoped that their post was enough to placate instructors, and that they essentially did what we asked in the letter."

Perhaps I am misinterpreting this sentence. But, there was a complain, that complain pointed actions that needed to be made, DataCamp did all they were told to do, and yet, the complainers are not happy, DataCamp didn't do what they needed to do (although they did everything they were asked to do).

Now put that together with the fact that the text basically doesn't give any real detail about what happened, and it seems yet another post by someone that enjoys being outraged and let everyone know about it.

<comment><USER16> >DataCamp did all they were told to do

There are three qualifiers on that in the original post.

>and yet, the complainers are not happy

It's very possible to be unhappy with how someone does something that you ask them to do, if they do it poorly. The post then goes on to detail what exactly the author finds to be lacking in what DataCamp did.

>the text basically doesn't give any real detail about what happened

What do you mean? It seems to explain what the company's response very clearly. If you mean it doesn't describe the contents of the initial allegation, that's not the topic of the post.</comment></comment>


Defining Aggregators - <AUTHOR> https://stratechery.com/2017/defining-aggregators/ <comment><USER2> The thing the article is missing is bundling and expansion.

If aggregators stuck to being aggregators that wouldn't be as bad, but they usually compete with suppliers on their own networks.

Also, product/service discovery and selection based on advertising probably doesn't work out as well for consumers.</comment>


Google's Hybrid Approach to Research - <AUTHOR> http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2012/7/151226-googles-hybrid-approach-to-research/fulltext <comment><USER2> How many other companies follow a similar model?</comment>


Ask HN: What are best ways to down res JPG images? - <AUTHOR> Our cloud service has a ton of jpgs loaded by users.  The images are loaded, then viewed occasionally by auditors and sometimes automated OCR.  So written once and read/viewed ~4 times.  We want to look at ways to save storage footprint, and I'd like to down sample the JPGs yet keep enough quality to keep users and automated OCR systems happy.<p>I'm hoping that someone has studied this problem and any pointers would be greatly appreciated. <comment><USER2> For text, 8-bit indexed png or if your scans are high quality then black and white indexed png files will be hard to top.

After the downsample, run them through pngquant or advpng. The latter supports zopfli via insane mode and will likely take the longest to compress with the smallest result.

<comment><AUTHOR> Thanks for suggestions. Seems like it is a standard process to convert to grey scale prior to OCR anyway. :-)

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> Storage is cheap, just buy another couple of hard drives.

</comment><comment><USER4> Why not just charge for additional storage?

<comment><AUTHOR> We don't charge for storage, it's just a cost for us.</comment></comment>


Ask HN: How do you really learn a new language? - <AUTHOR>

I mean <i>really</i> learn it. Master it, I mean. <comment><USER2> Do you mean how to _master_ that language, right?

Build and read.

I recommend getting a good reference book for the language (I personally find the O'Reilly books pretty good), with most of its features included, and read it from start to end. This way you will become familiar with the majority of the language concepts.

Then, find open source projects made by experts on that language and try to understand them. There will be simple things, but you will also find some constructs or language tricks.

And, of course, build things. You will not learn the language if you don't use it. Create hard things: there's no need to create a complex application, but instead a difficult application, where you need to explore deep in the language to achieve some goal.

<comment><USER3> These are all good suggestions.

Bug fixing is sometimes a useful way to learn a language.

Another good method is to try to teach it to someone else - what you do and don't know becomes clearer to you. So, you could look for questions on various online forums and provide the best answer you can. (You don't need to post that answer, you just need to write it.) And then compare what you wrote with the answers provided by other posters.

</comment></comment><comment><USER4> The only way to master something is to use it again and again over a long period of time.

But if you are asking about getting started with a new language, then it will vary from person to person based on your mode of learning - some learn by reading, some by writing, some by coding, some by reflecting, and some learn by teaching. You need to figure out what your preferred mode of learning is and do that.

I learn by copying some other code. I'll find a small tutorial and follow along typing the code line by line. I dont copy-past, I actually type it out. I don't necessarily think about what I am typing, just following along. If its in a book, I'll type out some of the examples. After its working, then I'll find a different tutorial and type it out again. Usually after a few programs like this, I start to get the hang of the basics.

</comment><comment><USER5> Assuming you already know other languages ...

Pick a smallish but difficult problem, and solve it. Maybe best is to make a personal utility that you would use, even if you already have that utility.

Don't worry about getting every idiom right, or fitting in exactly with the language's culture (but do pay attention to it).

Try all the things! This is your chance to try all the language features, without embarrassment, even if they aren't the most appropriate choice.

Get something working the very first day, preferably the first hour. Could be the equivalent of hello world, doesn't matter. Always have something working, and something next on the list for tomorrow, to help you wake up interested. That way you'll keep at it.

</comment><comment><USER6> I've refined my method for learning new languages and it works really well for me.

1\. Thumb through a basic book on the language. Skimming through syntax, language structure and other nuances that separate it from similar languages that you have experience with. Skim through examples but don't spend much time on them.

2\. Pick a project and go.

Refining your knowledge in the language is, in my opinion, simply a matter of time. Use the language, learn the language and get better at the language.

</comment><comment><USER7> My generally rule of thumb is to pick a project that is far beyond what I could hope to do in the language in a reasonable amount of time, then work as hard as I can, get as far as I can with copious amounts of googling and docs reading. By the end of it I have a good idea of how to work on the language. (And sometimes even a finished project)

</comment><comment><USER8> The two most important things have already been mentioned.

Another important technique that I usually use is to ask, repeatedly if I'm "doing this right". I find stackoverflow welcomes such questions but you must already have working code.</comment>


What happens to vested stock in case of death or dismemberment? - <AUTHOR>

Our founders agreement doesn't address what will happen to a founders vested stocks in case of death or dismemberment. My understanding was that generally you should be able to transfer stocks to beneficiaries as long as they're in your will or in the beneficiary list of the company that manages them (like Fidelity).<p>Can investors put a restriction on transferring stocks (other than allowing beneficiaries to sit on the board)? I was curious how others have handled this? Can you please share your story. <comment><USER2> [http://blog.simeonov.com/2010/05/07/repurchase-agreements- ro...](http://blog.simeonov.com/2010/05/07/repurchase-agreements-rofr/)

</comment><comment><USER3> This is a question for your attorney(s).</comment>


5 Hacks for the Best Sleep Ever - <AUTHOR> https://medium.com/@yeutterg/5-hacks-for-the-best-sleep-ever-50cd3079c546 <comment><USER2>
      Honey restocks glycogen in the liver, preventing the brain from thinking it is out of gas in the middle of the night

I'm not sure what's worse -- bogus scientific claims or the classless use of affiliate links in the article.</comment>


Google told to halt auto-complete - <AUTHOR> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/news/internet/Google-told-to-halt-auto-complete/articleshow/12413586.cms

<comment><USER3> A couple of points based on reading Japanese news reports: The reports are vague (at least to me) as to whether the injunction covers autocomplete itself or just the particular result. They say Google was ordered to stop the 表示 (hyouji, lit. 'display'), which I think could mean either, but seems more likely to mean the particular result (otherwise I suspect they would have said 'function'). In any case, it should be noted that all the reports seem to be based on a press conference by the plaintiff's lawyer, not on any court documents. Also, the English reports are reporting it as an injunction, but the Japanese sources have 仮処分 (kari-shobun, an interlocutory injunction), i.e. this is a temporary order and the case itself is probably still ongoing.

(I am not a native Japanese speaker, but professional J>E translator with legal translation experience)

</comment><comment><USER4> "Google has responded to the man's complaints by saying that since the results are compiled automatically there is no intrusion of privacy"

It's hard to see how this case is about privacy - it seems like it's really about defamation, however the real details aren't disclosed.

That said, the argument that because something is done by a machine the operators are not responsible for the consequences needs to be debunked once and for all.

<comment><USER5> Yes. The "nothin' to do with me, guv, it's the algorithm's fault" attitude is disingenuous and unhelpful.

<comment><USER6> Up until you said that, I assumed that was the general feeling. Though, I've never been in this situation myself. Can you qualify why that attitude is disingenuous and unhelpful?

<comment><USER5> What jlarocco said.

But more specifically...

Disingenuous: Because if you genuinely can't, you don't control your algorithm, you're just there to keep the lights on. I refer you to the joke about the autopilot computer, the pilot, and the dog.

Unhelpful: because it is. This is someone who is being deeply distressed by Google's actions in this small area of their operations, and their reaction is to tell him to take a hike. They don't have any obligation to him, but it's not good corporate citizenship. Vaguely related rant incoming; have some patience, please. (",)

We make algorithms, feed them masses of data, and have them suggest things to us based on our previous measured behaviour. This produces a positive feedback effect; in news and current affairs, you gradually get directed more and more towards news confirming your biases (see the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble> concept).

And we have psychological research showing groups without dissenting voices get more radical over time - see here: <http://www.sciencemag.org/content/169/3947/778>.

So naive implementations of news suggesters should be "considered harmful" to the public discourse. But those implementing these things don't seem to care, and often seem to show exactly the "it's the algorithm, not me" attitude displayed in this situation. We have a greater responsibility than that; if we're going to cause the (almost-)elimination of the job of newspaper editor, I'd hope we'd do it with something capable of doing at least as good a job.

<comment><USER6> "if we're going to cause the (almost-)elimination of the job of newspaper editor, I'd hope we'd do it with something capable of doing at least as good a job."

That's a fair request. Though, google didn't design search or autocomplete to do that right? Are they held responsible because some people figured it was good enough to do that job? I completely understand that it is detrimental to some people. At the same time, if it is changed, doesn't that take away its core functionality, which is actually useful to everybody?

Search and autocomplete serve a specific purpose: to search the internet for topics relevant to a query, and to aid in searching for common topics, respectively. People give them more functionality then that. Is that google's fault? Would they be fair in saying, "You're using it wrong"?

<comment><USER5> I did put "vaguely related" in the rant warning, didn't I? :-)

Though news.google.com is what I was thinking of with the current affairs example, it generalizes to the whole Google edifice, and to Facebook too. I really suggest having a look at this: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ofWFx525s> to see what I'm talking about, with actual examples.

Minor quibble: autocomplete isn't to aid in searching common topics, it's to help Google avoid failed searches through misspelt queries. ",)

</comment></comment></comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER7> Auto-complete is just a subset of search. Why is it more offensive to type "john smith" and get the suggestion "serial killer" than search "john smith" and have the first three results being about John Smith, the serial killer, and only getting to John Smith, the mountaineer and cat lover, in position four?

<comment><USER8> I think that one valid argument could be if people searching for this guy were commonly using a term like "John Smith Gym Teacher" they would likely never see the results for "John Smith Serial Playground Rapist". Or, at the very least the playground rapist results would be so far down the list that they would naturally be mostly disregarded. But, in this case the fact that "Playground Rapist" results are more common than the "Gym Teacher" results it could be argued that this skews the perception of John Smith in peoples minds.

</comment></comment><comment><USER9> I'll go against the popular consensus and argue that Google needs to turn this feature OFF by default. When ON, it's far too easy to assume the auto-complete represents the "right" search terms. IMO, it should be clearer that what it actually represents is similar searches other people have performed.

<comment><USER10> I think the point is in the overwhelming majority of cases, other searches are the "right" searches.

<comment><USER6> I agree. It's a nice feature. But then as far as features go, isn't it a meta- feature to be able to toggle them on or off?

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER11> Did Google even defend against this in the Japanese court? I don't understand how this could get by if they did.

The fact is that names are not unique. Would he be complaining if his namesake was a renowned scientist / businessman / whatever?

Just because someone with his name is linked to crime does not mean that he is. It simply means that someone with a similar or same name is known for their criminality. I don't have what I would term as a popular name but hundreds of people share it. I would imagine in countries with far denser populations that meeting someone with the same name would be fairly common.

I would also like to see an employer who received a CV. Went to Google and typed in half a name and without even searching discarded the CV because auto- complete had shown the name along with a buzz word like crime.

<comment><USER12> Your name may not be unique. That's not necessarily true for everyone else.

Given the prevalence of search, I would not be surprised at all if employers (more specifically recuriters) did a search and discard. It does not mean it's right or ethnical. But afaik there are no legal ramifications currently. Which is unfortunate.

<comment><USER13> If you try to forbid every case of stupid behavior in legal system - <USER2> system would be totally unmanageable.

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER14> Those auto-completes can be gamed, as most of them are just searches most people have done. What you do is get a large group of people to search for <NAME> \+ something else.

Of course you need to be creative, so rather than tell your friends, make it a contest or something. Or in your Linked In profile and email signature, put something like "If you want to see my latest resume, just google "<NAME> resume".

<comment><USER7> Aka Google bombing <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_bomb>

<comment><USER14> Google bombing usually means artificially trying to get a webpage to appear #1 for a specific keyword. This technique is not about trying to rank, but trying to get a phrase to appear in the search suggestions. Not many SEO blogs have even touched on this...

</comment></comment></comment><comment><USER15> The funny thing is that if these new stories included the man's name, it would naturally probably bump the old ones off.

<comment><USER13> That's probably one of the main goals of the plaintiff - to loudly claim: "I'm not that bad guy with the same name".

</comment></comment><comment><USER16> I have found one thing disturbing about autocomplete: Suppose I find a new "association" between 2 ideas, one of which is rare. I intend to follow the relationship up as a researcher or a programmer. Because of the rarity of the first topic, it is suggested to anyone who types in the first keyword - (s)he discovers the association for free, courtesy of my flash of inspiration and my carelessness to search it on google.

It is surprising in the history of mathematics how often the same results are proven simultaneously in several places - see for example, the HOMFLY polynomial. It is as though the "result was in the air". Now this is a concrete way of leaking such information so that if any one makes a connection, it "leaks" to others.

</comment><comment><USER17> Dear sir, I would like to apply for the position of squirrel hairdresser. Please note, I am not the Bill Godfrey recently convicted of lightbulb smuggling. That's someone else with the same name.

</comment><comment><USER18> There is no good that can come of government regulation of search engines, regardless of which nation's government we're speaking.

<comment><USER5> And if Google were at all willing to engage with users who have complaints, government wouldn't have to.

</comment></comment><comment><USER19> Google have the ability to do this, since they don't include any sexual terms in the auto-complete.

<comment><USER20> I thought people also have the ability to turn it off themselves - at least i thought they did, I'm struggling to find the option now. There is also another option to turn off instant update of the search results, which annoys the hell out of me (this is only for people logged into their Google account)

In any case, I'm sure it's just a case of Google flipping a switch somewhere...

</comment></comment><comment><USER21> Do you know what kind of auto-completing Google should really halt? Spoilers. _Do not_ type Game of Thrones character names on Google.

EDIT. I'm really, really sorry. I didn't mean to spoil by implying that there are spoilers. I removed the character name.

<comment><USER7> Huh? I get "actress", "quotes" and "imdb".

<comment><USER21> You missed the last space after her name.

<comment><AUTHOR> Even i didn't get the 'spoiler' suggestion at first. But i did get it after sometime. No idea how i got it.

</comment></comment></comment></comment><comment><USER22> I am starting to regret that I gave my child only two first names. What would be a reasonable number for the future? Maybe 10, or even 100?

The idea being that you can switch your "official" name easily...

<comment><USER23> Simple, just use your SSN as an identifier. That will secure your identity :)

</comment></comment><comment><USER24> Why turn it off instead of tweaking it?

<comment><USER25> seems like that is what they are going for (according to the text of the article, not the title): "...financial damages in a bid to press Google to erase the suggested search..."

</comment></comment><comment><USER26> When I look at "Wanted" posters, some of those guys have the same first name as me. Can I sue?

You can find a scum lawyer anywhere in the world, can't you? I assume he has proof all his charges are true.</comment>


Calling your web API "RESTful"? You're doing it wrong - <AUTHOR> https://samurails.com/web-api/calling-your-web-api-restful-youre-doing-it-wrong/ <comment><USER2> There is something called "Richardson maturity model", which pretty clearly specifies different levels of "restfulness": [http://martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.htm...](http://martinfowler.com/articles/richardsonMaturityModel.html)

<comment><AUTHOR> Yes, I know about this model but it wasn't made by Fielding and he made his positions pretty clear about what's RESTful and what's not.

I do agree that this model is a good set of steps to build better APIs but then, how do you call them? RESTful Level 1 API?

My point with this article is just to call API what they are (usually just HTTP APIs). I'm totally against the use of the REST buzzword these days since it doesn't mean much anymore: everyone has a different view on it.

</comment></comment><comment><USER3> I found this ([http://www.restapitutorial.com/lessons/whatisrest.html#](http://www.restapitutorial.com/lessons/whatisrest.html#)) to be a better explanation.

<comment><AUTHOR> The link you gave is pretty good. Note however, that in this article I wasn't trying to explain in details what is REST.

What I want is more to let people know why their APIs are not RESTful so they can use the kind of resources you gave to actually learn more about REST.

Thanks for sharing!

<comment><USER3> I went and found this resource as a result of reading your article. Your write up had the intended effect :)</comment></comment></comment>


Dead bodies on Mount Everest - <AUTHOR> http://imgur.com/gallery/rkRAk

<comment><USER2> There is a great story about a team member getting sick of the slow progress Sir Edmond Hillary was making cutting steps on Everest at the early stages of the ascent. A team member went up to tell him to hurry up. The guy got to him, spent several minutes laboring to catch his breath? Said good work, and started back down without Hillary breaking from cutting steps.

</comment><comment><USER3> It never occurred to me that dead bodies would just be left there.

<comment><USER4> At that altitude, the effort to move a dead body is four times the effort at sea level. If you attempt it, you put your own life in danger.

<comment><USER3> I understand the reasoning why they aren't always recovered, it just never occurred to me that there were bodies that are routinely passed but left up there until now. I'm more horrified by the situation than anything else.

That's not to say that the behavior is entirely acceptable. The story of the man whose body froze but was still alive and people just trudged past him assuming he was dead until someone finally heard him moaning softly is particularly horrific.

I understand that horrible situations can call for relaxed moral constraints just to survive. Living/fleeing an area seeing active military conflict, severe drought/famine, and any number of other extremely taxing situations can call for harsh decisions in order to survive.

I think this is different.

What we have here is (I admit, I assume) a bunch of privileged people purposefully submitting themselves to extreme hardship for a sense of accomplishment and meaning. In a way, emulating what they were lucky enough to have avoided by nature of where and who they were born as.

I didn't really have strong opinions about mountain climbing at this level before this montage (beyond thinking it's a bit ridiculous), but now I'm somewhat disgusted by it.

<comment><USER4> Yes, life and death is sometimes horrific. Makes you appreciate life even more when you contemplate death.</comment></comment></comment></comment>