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I don't own a TiVo. Besides dinking around with some at trade shows, I've never even used one. I hear they're fantastic. The company's announcement today of a temporary reinstatement of its "Lifetime Subscription" for $400 makes me wonder: why does TiVo charge a service fee at all? I understand that it takes time and money to build (or license) program data, but it's the sort of information that scales. Once the program guide is built it can be replicated for almost no cost, no matter how many more TiVo units are activated. Instead, the company charges hundreds of dollars over the lifetime of the device for the very data that makes their machines work. In their business model holding the reins of the data makes their product more valuable, but it actually makes their product less valuable to buyers. Since the main competitor to TiVo is not other third-party DVR manufacturers but the set-top boxes licensed by cable companies for a monthly fee, it would seem like a smart way to differentiate their product. As it stands now, every time I consider buying a TiVo I have to ask myself if I want to pay several hundred dollars up front as well as several hundred dollars over the use of the device. And as good as their interface may be, I don't. I suspect most of their other potential customers feel the same way. Even the terminology "lifetime subscription" is offputting. Who wants to commit to a product platform for life? Obviously, you can stop using your TiVo whenever you like, but my point is that the term "lifetime," while meant to imply a simple amortization, also implies a heavy, lifelong commitment. Appealing to true believers, perhaps, but not new converts.
Hey TiVo, Ditch the Subscription!
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16 Responses to "Hey TiVo, Ditch the Subscription!"
My understanding is that TiVo doesn't own or control the TV data, but instead licenses it from somebody else (Tribune Media Services?). TMS won't grant anybody (including TiVo) a flat rate, instead they charge per user, and the cost is passed along.
The schedules service available to open-source DVR systems (Schedules Direct) was initially going to have to charge $5/month to cover the costs of providing listings to its users, but has finally managed to lower it to just $20/year, but for a non-profit to charge $20/year to users of open-source systems shows that the price of these listings is very high. Unfortunately TMS's contracts prevent groups from disclosing the rates they're being charged, but it wouldn't be surprising if TMS charged more to provide listings to TiVo users than to users of open-source PVRs.
I'm pretty sure that everybody is charged for listings by TMS, including cable companies. The cable companies just build it into their service fees, so you don't see that line item if you have a cable company set-top box.
Oh, and by the way, the "lifetime" service for TiVo isn't *your* lifetime, it's the lifetime of the TiVo unit.
Makes sense. I wonder what it would take to make TiVo start their own listings division. Aggregating all the listings data from all the stations around the country is no small task, but it would seem some competition is needed.
I've long wondered why Tivo couldn't offer two kinds of service:
1) Normal pay-for service. Pay the monthly subscription, but no ads.
2) Ad-based. Allow Tivo to monitor your viewership and to push Tivo-based advertising at you.
If I could use the second option, I'd definitely be buying a new Tivo HD unit and moving my current series 2 to another television. As it is right now, I can't justify the long-term costs.
Makes sense. I wonder what it would take to make TiVo start their own listings division. Aggregating all the listings data from all the stations around the country is no small task, but it would seem some competition is needed.
I think the challenge of getting all the listings is not just a technical challenge of getting all the information, getting it right, putting it into a database, etc. I also think it's a "schmoozing" challenge, making deals with the networks to let you know about their schedules weeks in advance, making sure they keep supplying you with updates, negotiating over the show summaries, etc. I'm also pretty sure that the deal they have is exclusive, and that even if the networks were willing to provide listings directly to TiVo, TMS would step in and prevent it.
As for offering two kinds of service, TiVo is now making people pay for the service *and* monitoring viewership and pushing TiVo-based ads. Why would they want to change anything?
This seems a bit weird from my perspective in the UK. I pay no monthly fee, and my DVR gets all the program data (up to a few weeks in advance) from the digital TV signal. I know some people in the UK who do use a TiVo, paying a monthly subscription, but it seems a bit mad if you ask me.
It is in the TV stations' own interests to make this information available. If there was an established database to which stations submitted their listings (perhaps for a fee covering costs), and from which customers' DVRs freely downloaded information, then non-participating stations would lose out, since customers would be less likely to watch their programs.
Of course, TV stations hate DVRs anyway, because nobody with a DVR watches the ads!
They claim they're not monitoring what people watch. I've always felt like there's no reason a Tivo couldn't do double-duty as, for example, a Nielsen box as well. And why not? Toggle a little box in settings and let yourself become a Nielsen household, and accept a discount or free service for doing so.
Also, I think the lifetime subscription is transferable to a new, same-series unit. For example, if my series 2 dies, I can buy a new one and transfer the lifetime subscription to it. I think.
I find it interesting that you can get a Media Center box and listings are downloaded for free. And from the sounds of previous comments the price of Vista by itself would only cover the cost of a year or two of licensing from TMS.
of course the open-source solution would be to scrape that program data from a variety of other sources…theres only a million or so online…
Oh no, they definitely claim they're monitoring what you watch, down to the second. They know when you fast forward a commercial, which bits of a show you replay, etc.
The part they claim not to be doing is attaching personally identifiable information to that data, so they can then say "72% of people watched this commercial". If you look, I think last Superbowl or maybe the one before that, they had all kinds of stats about what ads people watched most, which ones they watched more than once, I think they even said that more people watched the commercials than the game.
Screen scraping used to be the way to get listings data, but it's against the terms of service for the websites, so a product like mythtv that contained a screen scraping component could get in trouble.
My MythTV box gets its listings from Schedules Direct, which charges $30 / 6 months. They're trying to reduce that to $30 / year.
Schedules Direct was hastily set up after Zap2IT labs stopped offering free listings due to too much unauthorized commercial reuse.
I think $5/month for listings is an OK deal, given how much nicer it is to find and schedule programs using an interactive grid than a newspaper listing.
snwbrdwndsrf, the reason you get free TV listings with Windows Media Center is that Microsoft is swallowing the costs. They've gotta do something with the mountains of cash that they're sitting on.
Actually MERC, they're not even doing that anymore. As reported today by Reuters, TiVo will announce it will be offering viewers' demographic information to advertisers as well.
I love my TiVo and personally I'm okay with the subscription and am actually willing to have my viewing habits reported to advertisers. I like the shows I like and if an advertiser knows I'm watching it as opposed to completely missing me and lots of those like me because we might be under-represented by Nielsen's horrifically awful statistics … well, maybe we'd still have Arrested Development or Firefly or any number of great, cult shows.
I have been extremely impressed with the attention Tivo has given its lifetime subscription holders. Unlike other recent BB posts about companies leaving their customers high and dry (like MLB), they are not trying to sunset early Tivo lovers. The cost of lifetime subscriptions or transfers is worth the better service, and I am sure Tivo will continue to make sure its paying customers stay satisfied.
Yeah… I totally agree with Joel on this one. I currently have a Dish Network DVR and it is included in the cost of my service. I've often considered getting a Tivo but, I won't pay their subscription fee. I'm sure that in the future that it will become standard practice for cable / satellite companies to give out DVR's to everyone who signs up. When that day comes…. Tivo is fucked.
You don't opt in to Neilson ratings systems. The company that runs it is afraid of people gaming the system to boost ad revenues to certain networks/shows.
I'm still waiting for the Tivo software option from Cox Communications and Tivo. But I'm afraid that they will raise my monthly digital cable bill. I've read that Comcast has recently started offering the Tivo option.


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Celebrity Buzz
Your daily dose of hot news & gossip.
Monthly Archive for December, 2010
Tara Reid sparks party girl rumors after boozy night in France
Getty Images Tara Reid has sparked rumors she's slipped back into boozing after allegedly enjoying an alcohol-fuelled night out in a French ski resort this week. The "American Pie" star, who spent 60 days in rehab in 2009 in a bid to kick a drinking problem, has been spending the festive season with pals at […] [Read More]
Merle Haggard impressed by 'humble' President Obama
Getty Merle Haggard. Country music legend Merle Haggard has stepped up to defend beleaguered U.S. President Barack Obama after meeting him earlier this month and discovering he's nothing like his media portrayal. Haggard met Obama at the Kennedy Center Honors in Washington, D.C. – where he was feted alongside Sir Paul McCartney and Oprah Winfrey, […] [Read More]
Michelle Williams plans to watch 'Brokeback Mountain' with daughter
Michelle Williams plans to watch "Brokeback Mountain" with her daughter by Heath Ledger – so her little girl can see the film which brought her parents together. The actress met her late ex-fiance Ledger on the set of the cowboy drama in 2004 and they went on to welcome Matilda the following year. The couple […] [Read More]
Elijah Wood joins Tron franchise
Elijah Wood is joining the "Tron" franchise after signing up to voice a character in an animated TV spin-off. The 1982 science fiction classic was rebooted with a big screen sequel, with the original film's star Jeff Bridges reprising his role as the software engineer who created the arcade game universe. "Tron: Legacy" has proved […] [Read More]
Reports of Owen Wilson's death greatly exaggerated
Associated Press Owen Wilson is the latest star to fall victim to fictional reports about his death, following fellow hoax victims Eddie Murphy, Aretha Franklin and Adam Sandler. The Zoolander star was rumored to have passed away after a snowboarding accident in Zermatt, Switzerland on Wednesday. But a spokesperson for the funnyman has dismissed the […] [Read More]
Neil Patrick Harris planning play dates with twins, Sir Elton's son
Sir Elton John and David Furnish's baby boy won't be short of friends growing up – the couple's pal Neil Patrick Harris is already planning "play dates". The Rocket Man and his partner David Furnish welcomed little Zachary Jackson Levon Furnish-John via a surrogate mother on Christmas Day and announced the happy news late on […] [Read More]
Rocker Bon Jovi scores top-selling 2010 tour
Rockers Bon Jovi are ending 2010 on a high after scoring the year's top-selling tour. The band sold a massive $201 million worth of tickets worldwide for The Circle Tour, topping a list of 2010's highest-grossing concert attractions compiled by Pollstar magazine. AC/DC came in at number two with $177 million, followed by Irish band […] [Read More]
Prosecutor: Murray defense will claim Jackson killed self
By LINDA DEUTSCH Associated Press LOS ANGELES — A prosecutor says defense lawyers for Michael Jackson's Houston doctor will claim at his involuntary manslaughter trial that the pop superstar killed himself. [Read More]
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The Natural World
June 5, 6, 7, 2015
Our June program features pieces about about roses, summer nights on the water, the blessings of rain, birds and other aspects of nature, including insects! We'll sing selections from Les Chansons des Roses by Morten Lauridsen, The Blue Bird by Charles Stanford, To be sung of a summer night on the water by Frederik Delius, Water: Making Everything New by Sanford Dole, and, as a finale, Leonard Bernstein's Make our Garden Grow from Candide. Our all-secular program combines a capella selections with songs accompanied by piano in a lovely prelude to summer.
Morten Lauridsen: from Les Chansons des Roses
Benjamin Britten: The Evening Primrose
Paul Mealor: A Spotless Rose
Eric Whitacre: With a Lily in Your Hand
Frederick Delius: To be sung of a summer night on the water
Mark Hayes (arr.): Wade in the Water
Abbie Betinis: Songs of Smaller Creatures
Claudio Monteverdi: Quel Augellin Che Canta
Thomas Vautor: Sweet Suffolk Owl
Charles Stanford: The Blue Bird
John Lennon / Paul McCartney (arr. Daryl Runswick): Blackbird
Christine Donkin: Four Critters
Read the program notes by artistic director Sanford Dole.
Join us for a preview lecture a half hour before each concert.
Friday, June 5, 8:00pm
1675 Winchester Blvd.
Palo Alto
Saturday, June 6, 8:00pm
555 Waverley St (at Hamilton)
San Francisco
Sunday, June 7, 4:30pm
500 De Haro St.
Note that the Saturday and Sunday venues are the reverse of our usual schedule.


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Box Office: WikiLeaks Pic 'The Fifth Estate' Bombing Friday
"Escape Plan" -- starring Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger -- is likewise withering and may not get to $10 million; "Gravity" could hit $30 million to stay at No. 1 in its third weekend, while "Carrie" is expected to scare up $20 million.
Prospects are grim for Bill Condon's The Fifth Estate, which is doing dismal business at the Friday box office and may not cross $4 million in its North American debut.
From DreamWorks and Participant Media, the movie stars Benedict Cumberbatch as Julian Assange, the controversial founder of WikiLeaks. Insiders close to the project concede that Americans may have little interest in WikiLeaks or its founder.
THR COVER: Confessions of Benedict Cumberbatch
In a recent interview conducted via Skype last weekend with members of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, Assange predicted the movie's failure, saying it doesn't provide the sort of underdog story moviegoers want.
Fifth Estate, drawing a mixed response from critics, cost $26 million to make.
Elsewhere at the box office, it now appears Kimberly Pierce's Carrie remake, starring Chloe Grace Moretz in the title role opposite Julianne Moore, won't be able to topple Alfonso Cuaron's box office blockbuster Gravity from the top spot.
From Warner Bros., Gravity could gross as much as $30 million in its third weekend, a notable feat.
Carrie, co-financed for under $30 million by MGM and Sony's Screen Gems, is pacing to gross in the $20 million range, as projected by Sony. Other box office observers believed the remake could gross between $20 million and $30 million.
The remake of Carrie opens nearly four decades after Brian De Palma's big-screen adaptation of Stephen King's novel Carrie turned into a sensation, helping to launch the careers of Sissy Spacek and John Travolta.
Fifth Estate isn't the only new offering wilting in its debut. Escape Plan, which teams Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger, may not get to $10 million, despite costing upward of $70 million to produce.
Summit Entertainment and Emmett/Furla films partnered on Escape Plan, which marks another critical test for Schwarzenegger as he tries to resurrect his acting career after his film The Last Stand bombed.
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