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My old canon10D has served me well but its about time I thought of replacing it. I have been looking at the available options and was quite taken with the spec of the cannon 450D. The other option being the 40D. From what I've read the 450D seems a little on the flimsey construction side, and very small in the hand, the 40D appears to be more in the 10D mould I.E. built like the proverbial brick out house and capable of more robust use in a pair of fairly large hands. I dont think that the extra 2 MP which the 450D offers over the 40Ds MP would be a great issue as I dont print beyond A3. The more I look the more confused one gets. The main function of the camera would be for street photography, travel photography, and general family functions. I have a 12MP canon G9 and the increase in MP over the 10Ds 6MP has convinced me its time to upgrade. Opinions from 450D and 40D users would be appreciated.
Hello Nikon,
I'm still waiting to receive my 450D from 7Dayshop.
I've also been told the same things about the 450D. But so what? The 450D will be my first digi camera, so I'm very much looking forward to it.
I'd say, for the purposes you'll be using the camera for, why spend more?
So the 450D is supposed to be flimsy and small in the hand! Does that really matter? Not in my opinion! Is this camera for taking pictures with or for playing rugby? Yes, I may be sarcastic, but I feel it's more important for the photographer to use the camera as best as he or she possibly can.
Don't forget, I doubt very much that a company with Canon's stature, would be prepared to release a camera that is bullshit.
As long as the 450D gives me images equal to the images I get from my EOS 3, I shall be extremely happy.
I use a 40D and its a great camera, image quality with good lenses is excellent, also uses Compact flash memory where the 450D uses SD I think, so going the 450D route would also require new memory.
The 40D as you suspect is more like the 10D in terms of build quality and durability, the 10.1 MP is more than sufficient for most people/uses.
Not used a 450D or 400D for that matter, so cant make any like for like comparison, the 10D and 40D are however worlds apart in terms of performance and resolution, the 40D has an upgraded AF, especially useful for f2.8 lenses, not sure if the 450D has the same AF system.
Is it worth the extra £150? The big question. In my opinion yes, especially if you have bigger hands and want a camera similar in build to your 10D
I've got the 40D & had the 30D. Previously had the 350D. I love the handling of the 30D & 40D, no comparison. I found that the 350D irritated me, especially over longer photo sessions and it made my fingers ache! (I'm an average size female). So for comfort and build quality as well as performance, I believe it's worth the extra.
Thanks one and all for your input. The main theme appears to be leaning toward the 40D for build quality, and comfort in use. I do not upgrade often as you will have detected by my current leap from a 10D, which ever I buy I will expect it to be in use for a number of years hence the long look at build quality.I have spent some time building up a collection of good lenses, and I feel that the 10D is not capable of using to their full potential.
Bought a 40D as backup and they are superb for the cash.
I own a 40D, not tried the 450D (is it out yet?) but I would suspect there is little to choose in image quality, except that by design the 40D may have a bit better high ISO performance (bigger micro lenses).
The big difference will be in handling. I moved up from a 300D and found the 400D to be too small. Also the 40D will feel very fast responding after the 10D.
On the what you get, the 40D has a lot longer shutter life as well as the different construction of the body. as someone who is not upgrading every couple of years that could be important.
No doubt the 450D will be good, but I would still pick the 40D for the handling and life issues alone.
40D is definitely a wiser choice for shutter life, body build quality, and cost-efficiency. The 40D is not that much more expensive than a 450D.
One other thing you'll have to weigh as well is its use. If you'll be using it as a walk-around SLR, just save yourself a few quid and get a 450D. If you want a semi-pro SLR, you have to follow your ehart and get a 40D!
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"Oh, you want to know how to use a sword, do you? Well, that will cost your level ten self ten pieces of silver. That's right, hand it over. Ok, now that I've received my payment, let me train you on how to use these. Hold it by the handle; pointy end goes in the bad guys. Ok, you're all set. Next!"
I understand that weapon restrictions are there as a game mechanic (I mean, my warlock can wield a sword, dagger, or two-handed staff, but he can't figure out how to hold a mace?) but weapon training is kind of a douche move at this point. Making someone travel all the way to darn to train to be able to use their most recent green upgrade at level 10 isn't the best way to retain new players.

subset: commoncrawl


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As 750,000 Britons Strike Against Their Government, Federal Employee Strikes Are Illegal Here In The U.S.
Today, nearly three-quarters of a million teachers, immigration officials, court workers, and other unionized civil servants in the United Kingdom are on a 24 hour strike. These workers are protesting harsh austerity policies by the right-wing British government that will ask poor and middle class Britons to sacrifice in the form of pension costs and pay cuts, but leave the rich largely untouched. Al Jazeera English interviewed some of the strikers and filed a video report about the action. Watch it:
The reason these workers can protest their government's policies in this way is because most non-security public sector employees in the country have a robust right to strike. Unfortunately, labor laws in the United States are not nearly as permissive. In fact, according to United States Code: Title 5,7311, U.S. federal employees are actually not permitted to strike against the government:
An individual may not accept or hold a position in the Government of the United States or the government of the District of Columbia if he —
(1) advocates the overthrow of our constitutional form of government;
(2) is a member of an organization that he knows advocates the overthrow of our constitutional form of government;
(3) participates in a strike, or asserts the right to strike, against the Government of the United States or the government of the District of Columbia; or
(4) is a member of an organization of employees of the Government of the United States or of individuals employed by the government of the District of Columbia that he knows asserts the right to strike against the Government of the United States or the government of the District of Columbia.
Additionally, in many parts of the United States, public employees who work for municipalities or states are also prohibited from striking. In states as diverse asWashington, New York, and Wisconsin there is a broad framework of laws that prohibits most strikes by most public employees.
Some British conservatives, fearing the rights that public employee unions have in their country, are already calling for changing the United Kingdom's strike laws to make it more difficult for workers to exercise their power. It seems they would prefer their workers to be as relatively powerless as their American counterparts.


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Tag Archives: college
Not Oprah's Book Club: College 101: A Girl's Guide to Freshman Year
By Ava Kofman | Published: May 6, 2014
TweetJulie Zeilinger's College 101: A Girl's Guide to Freshman Year is the book I wish I read four years ago when I started college. The guide advises incoming freshman on how to navigate the confusing new experiences that come with being a freshman and a woman in college — namely, the ways in which tricky roommates, [...]
Also tagged Intersectionality, Not Oprah's Book Club, students, young women, youth | Comments closed
Photo of the Day: Dartmouth has a problem
By Alexandra | Published: April 11, 2014
Tweet Online organizers UltraViolet have launched a campaign to make sure students admitted to Dartmouth know that the school has a problem with sexual violence. From their press release: Tweet
Also tagged Activism, campus sexual assault, Dartmouth, rape culture | Comments closed
Are sexism and pay disparities sending women to college?
By Sesali Bowen | Published: December 11, 2013
TweetI was raised by an educator. My Granny was a teacher and my sister followed her career path, later becoming an assistant principal. Growing up I wasn't disciplined for too many things was disciplined the most for fucking up in school. If my mother or grandmother got word that I was even late for a class [...]
University official refuses to lend student a computer, says he looks "like a girl"
By Jos | Published: October 28, 2013
Tweet I wish this was surprising. Abdul Asquith, a senior at Florida Atlantic University, was refused use of a library laptop last Wednesday while he was trying to study. Tweet
Also tagged discrimination, Racism, transphobia, university | Comments closed
Today in post-racial America: University of Alabama sororities won't let black women pledge
By zerlina | Published: September 12, 2013
TweetRoll Tide! Except if you happen to be a black woman. The University of Alabama's student paper the Crimson White is reporting that at least four sororities at the school will not allow black students to pledge. The sororities Alpha Gamma Delta, Tri Delta, Chi Omega, and Pi Beta Phi all blocked two qualified black students [...]
Also tagged Racism, sorority, university | Comments closed


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Supervisors OK response to Drug Court order
Lafayette County Board of Supervisors approved a written response drafted by County Attorney David O'Donnell to a court order that instructed the board to cease and desist from interfering with business of the 3rd Circuit Drug Court. A copy of the letter has not been made available. (July 13, 2010, Page 2A)
Supervisors to pursue legal remedy for courthouse clock
The remedy for the ailing courthouse clock is legal action. The Lafayette County Board of Supervisors announced in their regular meeting that they hired a man over three years ago to repair the clock who has not made the restorations or returned the clock parts. Now the board is seeking a clockmaker to help restore the current one, but may have to settle for a newer clock that works. (July 7, 2010, Page 3)
County replies to insurance agent's lawsuit
Attorneys representing the Lafayette County Board of Supervisors denied allegations made by a former insurance agent who claimed the county set him up on conspiracy charges.
The suit, filed May 27 by former insurance agent Ken Nowlin, also names attorney Tony Farese, whom Nowlin says failed to act in his best interest and coerced him into pleading guilty in 2007 to conspiring with former supervisor Gary Massey to scam the county. (June 29, 2010, Page 2)
County to respond to court order issued last week
The Lafayette County Board of Supervisors voted to allow County Attorney David O'Donnell to draft a response to a court order issued against them last week that instructed them to follow through with its promise to be the funding conduit for the Third Circuit Court and it's Drug Court until Union County can take over. (June 24, 2010, Page 2A)
Former insurance agent sues county
A former insurance agent of record for Lafayette County is suing former and current county officials claiming they railroaded him into pleading guilty to crimes he didn't commit.
The suit, filed May 27 by former insurance agent Ken Nowlin, also names attorney Tony Farese, whom Nowlin says failed to act in his best interest and coerced him into pleading guilty in 2007 to conspiring with former supervisor Gary Massey to scam the county. (June 9, 2010, Page 1)
Clockmaker gets more time
Lafayette County supervisors are giving Lloyd Larish, master clockmaker, a few more days to finish the work he started on the Lafayette County Courthouse before searching for someone else to complete the job. (June 8, 2010, Page 1)
County gets back more than $600,000 from lawsuit
Lafayette County is about $600,000 richer after settling a lawsuit against the county's former medical insurance company, Trustmark Group Benefits. (April 22, 2010, Page 2)
County, builder dispute ongoing
The Lafayette County Supervisors were brought up to date at Monday's meeting in regard to an ongoing dispute between the county and developer James E. Davis in regard to a T-shaped road inside the University Heights subdivision. (April 6, 2010, Page 1)
Keeping things the same
LOCAL NEWS — At the first meeting of 2010 for the Lafayette County Board of Supervisors, the five-member board kept things pretty much the same for the new year. The board voted to re-appoint David O'Donnell as county attorney and Larry Britt as county engineer. (January 5, 2010, Page 2)


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Toradora! - Taiga + Ryuji
This was a great series.
(Source: shiyume)
Toradora! - Taiga + Ryuji
This was a great series.
(Source: shiyume)
I'm not CRAZY!!! D:
This expression is priceless.
Guess who's got two thumbs and a new Sudoh-Bucks mug. This guy :D
Thats funny.
Ok this anime may have just went down in the top 5 animes I like a lot. Besides some of the anime concepts, it reminds me of a lot of how real life may go in some peoples cases. I like the fact it has some pretty good meaning in it how relationships go, how people fall in love and sometimes don't turn out as planned, and friendships. I don't know people may argue with me on this but it relates to real life pretty well. Also this anime ain't out of this world either.


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Trending on Y108
Rock is Dead They Say
Daltrey had an answer to that proclamation, through the words of Townshend, when in 1972 The Who declared (recorded) 'Long Live Rock'. And just like Johnny Winter was, until the summer of 2014, Rock IS still alive and well, according to some, if not Gene Simmons. It was he who recently suggested it had been murdered by those who have refused to invest in the next generation of artists. Enter Dee Snider with a rebuttal to Gene, via facebook: "While I have nothing but respect for Gene,...
Y108 Rocks on Social Media


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Forum / THE MAIN WALL / How would you control a Bumblebee circulator in a pure TRV situation?
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How would you control a Bumblebee circulator in a pure TRV situation? (65 Posts)
knotgrumpy February 16, 2013 @ 11:05 AM
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How would you control a Bumblebee circulator in a pure TRV situation?In either a reverse return two pipe system or a home run setup I can understand the Alpha would sense the pressure change when a TRV opens and closes. How would a Bumblebee know a TRV opened in order to turn the pump on since you would be dispensing with thermostats?
Put in some sort of pressure differential sensing switch between supply and return?
John Barba, are you on here?
SWEI February 16, 2013 @ 12:07 PM
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delta-T will work just fineAs the TRVs slow down the water flow through the radiators, the average return temperature will drop and the pump will slow down to supply less, maintaining ∆T.This post was edited by an admin on February 19, 2013 10:38 AM.
knotgrumpy February 16, 2013 @ 12:28 PM
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What if there is no longer any return flow to measure?On a closed home run branch there wouldn't be any returning water, would there? On the reverse return two pipe system the return would not be flowing if the only the first radiator on loop was calling for heat and then the TRV shot down. No water would be flowing back to boiler then.
Would a bypass be required to have flow temp to measure?
SWEI February 16, 2013 @ 3:23 PM
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I haven't tried a BumbleBee yetbut I'm sure they have a way of dealing with it. I just pinged Steve Thompson on this.
knotgrumpy February 16, 2013 @ 5:25 PM
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ThanksI am really interested in this.
heatpro02920 February 16, 2013 @ 5:27 PM
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I wouldn't use delta tI would send one sensor to the radiator and use the set point function just set the temp you want at that radiator the bee will do the rest.... I'm not sure I'm thinking of the same type of system as you I use them for radiant and rad panel fhw .....
Steve Thompson (Taco) February 16, 2013 @ 11:52 PM
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I think I have an answer - but...Good question. I think I have the answer but want to check with Mr. Barba and a few others first.
Stay tuned folks - we're on it. Get back to you shortly.
knotgrumpy February 17, 2013 @ 1:25 AM
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Thanks Steve!Thanks for all the great "How To" stuff on your website. Between Taco and Caleffi (and The Wall, of course), a person can learn a lot.
Chris February 17, 2013 @ 8:13 AM
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In A PureTRV situation I would be constant circulation based on outdoor temp. Pump comes on below WWSD and off at WWSD. If a panel rad application my radiator valves would be the type with built in bypasses.
The Bee is looking to maintain a delta-t and will do so. I wouldn't want it on/off. It runs at start for a full 3 minutes before it reacts unlike the VDT which was 30 seconds.
If cast rads, same thing, bypasses and constant circulation. The pump will react to the delta-t change and speed up or down depending on the needed flow and head required at a given moment.
Would be nice if the next version had 0-10VDC and the start time was field adjustable. Three minutes is a long time. Why the difference between a 30 sec on the older VDT and 3 minutes on the Bee?"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."This post was edited by an admin on February 17, 2013 8:14 AM.
Robert O'Brien February 17, 2013 @ 8:31 AM
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Delta PDelta P pumps were designed with this application in mind.
John Barba February 17, 2013 @ 10:35 PM
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Here's the "buzz...."Hi gang --
This is sorta what I have in the lower level of my house. Panel rads with TRV's and a Bumblebee - with a minor variation. The panel rad in the family room -- largest load by far - has no TRV - that room runs off a thermostat. All the panel rads are piped with dedicated supply and return PEX runs off a valved manifold. There's retrofit radiant floor in my office - runs off the same manifold as the panel rads - and it operates off the family room thermostat as well.
The thing to remember about TRV's is that they modulate - they're usually either opening or closing- regulating flow through the radiator. This control method lends itself to "continuous circulation," primarily for electrical simplicity more than anything else. This application is pretty standard in Europe, and is what Delta-P circulators are designed for.
Would a Delta-T Bumblebee work in this situation? Well, why wouldn't it?
Let's say you decided to run it "continuously" (which kinda defeats to the purpose of "electrical efficiency," the most efficient circulator is the one that's off - but that's a different story for a different day). You program the BumbleBee for the Delta-T you want (20, 30, 40 - whatever you designed the system for), and then put the supply sensor on the supply piping, and the return sensor on the return piping - near the return side of the manifold and the turn it on.
The pump runs to establish the Delta-T you've programmed. With all the TRV's fully open - you're pulling a lot of BTU's out of the fluid. The return water temperature may be fairly low -- and the circulator will go faster. As TRV's close, or modulate towards closed, that means the radiators - and the system - need less flow. The return water temperature would start to increase - and the Bumblebee will slow down.
So what happens when it's warm out and you don't need much heat at the radiators? Well, if you have outdoor reset on the boiler, everything chugs along as it would if it were colder out - with one exception. The BumbleBee will run at even lower speeds when it's warmer out - like in late November - than when it's colder out, like in mid-January - and there's a Taco T-shirt in it for the first person who knows why!
If there's no outdoor reset, the TRV's won't open as much - to regulate flow through the radiator. Again, since there's not a lot of BTU's being taken out of the fluid, the Bumblebee will react accordingly. Will the pump dead-head if all the TRV's are closed? Yep - so will a Delta-P pump. Don't forget those things are always running, and the impeller is always turning - even when there's no flow required.
What will the Delta-T function do if all the TRV's are closed? That's a pretty rare occurrence, because TRV's aren't made to be "off," they're made to modulate - so the likelihood may be completely off the radar, but just suppose...
Let's say it's mild out - and reset says the supply water temperature needs to be 120, and you've set the Delta-T to 30 degrees. That would mean the pump would run at a certain speed in order to bring the return water back at 90 degrees. As TRV's close - as in completely closed - the BumbleBee will slow down accordingly. When the last TRV's closes completely, the pump will be running very slowly. Now there's no flow. The pump will run at that same speed until the it senses that return water temperature dropping. It's not moving, after all, so it will probably drop some. The pump will try to get that return temp back up by ramping up -- slowly. Once one of the TRV's opens up again - the sensors will get a reading of return water temp changes, and the pump will do what it needs to do.
Again, this is one of those occurrences that is mostly theoretical - and if it does happen, the time period is wicked short.
How would a Delta-P circulator handle this same situation? Look at a Delta P pump curve chart. Delta-P pumps work on a fixed pump curve -- they're funny looking pump curves, but they're fixed. Even the Alpha - it has a range where it operates, and changes are based on pre-programmed algorithms - but it's still a pump curve. If all of the TRV's are closed, the Delta-P pump will work at the spot where the low end of the pump curve intersects the 0 GPM line - it's a fair bet the BumbleBee would be running at a lower speed because the pump adjusts to what the system needs, with a constantly-adjusting pump curve. Check the Delta-P curves to see where that intersection point is.
The other thing to remember, a Delta-P pump runs the same speed in January as it does in November.
There's lots to digest here, but at the very least you guys helped me write a new blog post! I don't check here very often, but if you have any questions, please email me directly at [email protected]
Chris February 18, 2013 @ 7:17 AM
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T ShirtIn November the heat loss is generally much less than in January when you are more inclined to get to design days or pretty close. I don't need the same flows and I don't have a need to pull out a tremendous amount of btu/hr so my emitters are not sucking them out at the same rate they would be in January. Pump head is the same to a point no matter the heat loss so the only change is btu/hr pulled out of the conveyor belt. It is also less likely that multiple zones are open simultaneously."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
John Barba February 18, 2013 @ 9:43 AM
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We've got a winner!!!I would have hoped you got that one right Chris!!!! E-mail me your size and address and we'll hook you up...
knotgrumpy February 18, 2013 @ 9:24 AM
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Thanks John!I'm thinking when the ODR lowers the water temp in November it will become increasingly harder to have the radiation 'give up' the BTU's to hit the same delta T as at design temperature, right? EDR charts show that.
At a certain point on a warmer day I could see the pump slowing to nothing to even hit the differential.
John Barba February 18, 2013 @ 9:41 AM
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hasn't happened yet...Have had a BumbleBee of various generations in my house for 3 winters now - with outdoor reset, panel rads and TRV's -- hasn't happened yet. System doesn't deliver much heat in November because not very much is needed. Nor has it happened in any of the test sites used during the 3-year development of the Bumblebee, nor have we seen it happen in any of the installation since its release.
Gordan February 19, 2013 @ 8:22 AM
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With all due respect...As the TRVs throttle down, the return temperature from their circuits would DROP, not rise. The whole reason why TRVs work is that they lower the AWT across the emitter. They do this by restricting flow - same as the Bumblebee. The only way the temperature should rise is if there's a bypass and enough flow goes through the bypass to make up for the cooler (but less) flow from the throttled emitters. Your one zone that's not on a TRV is probably acting as this bypass, so it's getting more than its share of flow until the thermostat is satisfied. I guess that works well enough if that one zone is relatively large compared to the rest of the system and the piping can accommodate the extra flow. It still seems plain that the Bumblebee could interpret a "call for no heat" (that is, the TRV acting to drop the AWT and, consequently, LWT) as a "call for heat", and that the two devices would apparently be at cross-purposes.
The usual design goal behind constant circulation is not electrical efficiency, as you seem to allude. With constant circulation, electrical efficiency becomes much more important, but fuel efficiency and comfort are typically touted as the prime motivators behind constant circulation, as those factors tend to outweigh electrical energy usage in a typical system. If they didn't, constant temperature operation at highest possible water temperature would still be the optimal choice, as that leads to shortest cycles and least electrical consumption.
EDIT: Actually, STEAM or gravity circulation would be the optimal choice - you can have that with no electrical usage at all!This post was edited by an admin on February 19, 2013 8:25 AM.
SWEI February 19, 2013 @ 10:38 AM
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respect dueAck - major typo there (and it was mid-day!) Fixed it - thanks :)
Gordan February 19, 2013 @ 12:36 PM
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Still one issue left...The return temperature dropping would widen the delta-T and actually cause a delta-T circ to speed up, rather than slow down.
pipeking February 19, 2013 @ 3:29 PM
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GORDANthat is if your supply temp stays the same. the pump is following the delta-t, if the return is droping the supply prolly is too. am i understanding u right?
Gordan February 20, 2013 @ 7:16 AM
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Not sure why that would beThe supply is maintained relatively constant by the boiler.
Chris February 19, 2013 @ 6:35 PM
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I Always UseRadiator valves with built in bypass on them with panel rads. Page V-3, part numbers 1057 and 1058.
Your return water would be dropping much slower as the flow of the panel rad is much less then the by pass or could be the same. I don't see the pump having to ramp very much. Your still going to need to do the math and the by pass is still a TEE..
Flow is 2gpm to the by pass and the rad only wants 1gpm. Supply Water temp is 140. System designed for a 30 degree delta.
(140 x 1) + (110 x 1) = 2X
Still above my 30 delta....What has to change? Why does it change? Can't change supply water temp."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."This post was edited by an admin on February 19, 2013 7:56 PM.
Gordan February 20, 2013 @ 7:36 AM
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Not sureChris, not sure whether this is a reply to my post above. If so, I did specifically point out that the system return temperature could be expected to potentially go up with a bypass. This would then be interpreted by the controller as a signal to slow down, if there's enough flow bypassed by the TRVs. Eventually, the circ and the TRVs would settle into an equilibrium. This seems like a good combination and, in fact, might be a better match for systems that are pumping through the boiler, depending on just how quickly the circulator responds (you wouldn't want to underpump through the heat exchanger - it would be nice to have some sort of "min GPM" and "max GPM" parameter that you could set to your heat exchanger's requirements.)
Chris February 20, 2013 @ 9:26 AM
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Your RightThe circ would slow down and your delta across the rad would increase since it has the larger pressure drop. So what happens when the delta gets larger? Your panel rad thermostatic is going to open wider and allow for more flow which means flow through the bypass decreases.
This demonstrates why the Bumble Bee in my opinion is a better pump then an Alpha. It reacts to changes in the system btu/hr delivery, the Alpha does not."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
Gordan February 20, 2013 @ 11:12 AM
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Apples and orangesI'm not sure how you can claim that a dP circ combined with two-way TRVs does not react to changes in the system btu/hr delivery. The TRV does this locally for each zone or emitter, and the dP circ provides the aggregate flow required by all the zones. dP circulators and pressure bypasses are not a typical combination because those two devices work at cross-purposes... either the pressure bypass would never allow the circ to meet its pressure differential setpoint or the circ would never allow the pressure bypass to get activated.
Now, a pressure bypass (or three-way TRVs) with a dT circ is a different story. Particularly the latter. But that's not the application we were discussing; in addition, see my response to John for more questions about the benefits of maintaining a constant dT in the system. (Maybe dT-v would be a good addition to the algorithm, allowing the target dT to increase with the circulator's duty point?)This post was edited by an admin on February 20, 2013 11:30 AM.
John Barba February 19, 2013 @ 6:48 PM
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Snapshots & moviesHi Gordan –
Had to laugh at your opening line – can't hear or read "with all due respect" without thinking of Ricky Bobby!
I think if you look at a snapshot in time, you're very correct about how TRV's affect AWT in a panel radiator. But think about what causes a single TRV to "throttle down?" The thermostatic head is getting closer to being satisfied – meaning it's getting warmer in the room – meaning less output is needed from the radiator – meaning your reaching a point of relative equilibrium for the radiator - meaning fewer BTU's are being taken out of the fluid – at that particular snapshot in time.
Give it a minute – and that equation will change.
Nothing remains static for very long in a panel radiator system. That TRV continues modulating in an effort to maintain a comfort level in the room. And what's more – every other TRV in the house is doing the same darn thing, all based on their own settings, heat loads, radiators sizes, etc.
Cross purposes? If you look at one snapshot in time – yeah, you're probably right. But heating systems are more like a full-length feature film than a snapshot. Look at what happens over the course of 10 minutes, 30 minutes or two hours, and consider what's going on with all the radiators in the entire system (their TRV's are probably doing different things at different times), and remember that a Delta-T circulator reads the difference between the water temperature going out to the system and the water temperature coming back from the system – key word being "system" – and will vary its speed to maintain that overall system Delta-T. If one radiator out of a dozen has a closing TRV, I can't see that it would "confuse" a Delta-T circulator.
One more note – the circulator doesn't care what the supply water temperature is – just the difference. Set that Delta-T for what makes the most sense for the application.
And just for giggles – since it's about 4 degrees here in Minnesota today – I shut off the open radiator in the family room, turned my BumbleBee on continuous and let it operate on just the TRV's on the rest of the radiators. Nothing blew up, the circulator hummed along between 9 and 14 watts (that I recorded – may have gone lower or higher while I was in the can), the boiler was happy and the downstairs (except the family room) was fine. Left it like this for about 4 or 5 hours. I don't know what that means, but it means something…
At the end of the day, it's kinda hard to get around the simple fact that GPM = BTUH ÷ (DT × 500).
BTW – I think you misread something. I said that people tend to like continuous circulation systems for electrical "simplicity," not electrical efficiency. No relays, no thermostats, etc makes for a pretty simple system. That said – my own personal opinion – and it's just that, my opinion – is that I'd just as soon turn a pump off when I don't need any heat. With properly sized heat emitters and outdoor reset – you're gonna have fairly long on times, anyway…
Gordan February 20, 2013 @ 11:06 AM
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I get that the room will be getting warmerAnd therefore, for any given AWT, the emitter will have a harder time rejecting heat into the room. But I'd expect those differences in room temperature to be small relative to the differences between the "ideal" supply water temperature (leading to no throttling) and the system supply water temperature - after all, the TRV is keeping the temperature in the room relatively constant. It's a dynamic system, to be sure, and it's not easy to mentally keep track of all the variables. But there are two kinds of dynamic systems: balanced ones, which typically have some sort of negative feedback that pushes everything to equilibrium, and unbalanced ones that feature positive feedback of some sort that leads to extremes. Imagine the case where the outdoor reset curve is set too high for the conditions so all the TRVs are throttling. In that case, the system delta T has to widen in order for the rooms to not overheat. Flow would drop rapidly with a dP circulator but wouldn't a dT circulator actually up its duty point in order to bring the delta T back to the configured value? This is what I mean by stating that the two devices would appear to work at cross purposes, whereas a dP circulator naturally and directly responds to the TRV's action in the correct way. Admittedly, I'm using a contrived example to illustrate my point, but I believe that it is a valid point: left to their own devices, the TRV (without bypass) and the dT circulator are not a natural pairing.
In a more realistic setting, we would be dealing with an optimized reset curve, so those TRVs should remain relatively open. But, by maintaining a fixed dT, doesn't a dT circulator force the system supply to be bumped higher to achieve the same AWT and, therefore, equivalent heat output from the emitters? And it does this by restricting flow, which is equivalent to what would happen if you bumped up the reset curve on a dP-circulated system and let the TRVs do the flow restriction. In both those cases, the circs will operate at a lower duty point than if the reset curve were optimal with a floating dT. And in both those cases, the same system dT will result. And in both those cases, it would seem that the benefit of a reduced system return water temperature would not extend to the boiler return water temperature because, having constant flow through the boiler loop, constant heat output, and a constant supply setpoint that it's maintaining, it follows that the boiler return (mixed boiler supply and system return) would be the same in both cases. The same is true with pumping through the boiler. So then, the question is: does it make sense to bump up the supply temperature in order to obtain a lower return temperature, but at a lower flow? And to what extent, if any, does it make sense to do that?
John Barba February 20, 2013 @ 12:02 PM
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You're right......it is a contrived example, and contrived examples ALWAYS make one's point ;-)
I mean, who would contrive an example that disproves his point?
Delta-P was designed for this type exact application - and it works very well, there' sn o dispute there.. But Delta-T works well in this situation, too. As I said, I lived with the exact example you mention yesterday, just to see what would happen - a fairly realistic setting. Was it an entire heating season? No, just one freakin' cold day in Minnesota. The circulator seemed to be just fine with it all...because one TRV does not a system make. There are a bunch of them...and water temperature doesn't make them throttle, room temperature in the vicinity of the operating head does. And I'll bet dollars to donuts my ODR curve is probably a bit high for the real heat loss of the house. I calculated it to 44,000, but I'll bet it's lower than that in reality...
And again, the Delta-T pump does not set or control the supply water temperature - that may be the element you're missing - it doesn't even care what the supply water temperature is. It only cares about the Supply-Return difference. BTU requirements change - if the Delta-T is maintained, the system flow rate will change accordingly.
I think, Gordan, we may be at the point where we shake hands and agree to disagree...This post was edited by an admin on February 20, 2013 12:29 PM.
Eastman February 20, 2013 @ 6:09 PM
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not contrived"Admittedly, I'm using a contrived example to illustrate my point..."
I do not feel it is contrived at all. Perhaps one is dealing with a significant solar gain issue. Let's say you have a well balanced home run panel rad system connected to a modulating heat source. Normally, a tuned ODR curve keeps the system in equilibrium with long cycles infrequently interrupted by the thermostat. But the southern exposure of this solar orientated home seems to get clobbered. TRVs are employed on half the rads to solve the problem. What happens when the sun hits the glass? The rads on the south side throttle down flow to reduce their AWTs. The rads on the north side must logically increase their AWTs to balance the bumblebee's fixed delta T enforcement. North side overheats. The thermostat, probably located in the center of the house, ends the call for heat. The same problem, but in reverse, happens for a windchill at night.
Both a fixed speed pump and fixed delta T pump will suffer to a degree from this problem, but a fixed delta P pump will not. (The optimal ODR curve is different though.)
Suppose a bypass is employed. This implies one is pumping water that doesn't get used. And, if the bypass is at the rads, the thermal distribution losses on the returns are being raised unnecessarily. For a single distribution pump solution at the residential level, surely any possible electrical efficiency gains of a couple ten's of watts are totally offset by these inherent disadvantages when dealing with a system making extensive use of TRVs.
What about a more suitable system? Gordon's final question really launches this thread into a new subject: (suggest starting new thread)
"So then, the question is: does it make sense to bump up the supply
temperature in order to obtain a lower return temperature, but at a
lower flow? And to what extent, if any, does it make sense to do that?"
When does it make sense to use a fixed delta T, a fixed delta P, or a fixed speed? And why are these are only options? Surely neither of these schemes will produce the optimal solution as a given moment for a given system. What would? What hydraulic characteristics should we take note of? What variables should the pump measure? What parameters should be adjustable?This post was edited by an admin on February 20, 2013 6:11 PM.
knotgrumpy February 19, 2013 @ 7:42 PM
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John Barba, are you on here?Well, I guess you are.
I'm glad my question resulted in a good dialog.
I think a really killer product would be micro Delta T circulators, John.
Imagine a fractional to maybe 2 gpm pump that could be attached to current distribution manifolds. Each set to the particulars of the various emitters in the system. About the price of a Sentry zone valve.
Be pretty cool.
John Barba February 19, 2013 @ 8:28 PM
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Mini-pumpJust need to get that machine from "Honey, I Shrunk The Kids"....
knotgrumpy February 19, 2013 @ 8:43 PM
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Big dreams, little pumps...It will happen. Look at what happened to boilers...
BTW - Gennady is showing off a BumbleBee in this most unlikely post:
He has a link to a nice gallery of his work and features a Bee in one of them.
SWEI February 19, 2013 @ 8:45 PM
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ECM micro circsare probably in our future. There are a couple in the EU market but they aren't sold here.
I'm envisioning something that runs on 24 VAC and tops out around 2-3 Watts. Small enough to mount on a manifold, internal ∆T control plus some kind of network connection. Full BACnet or LON would be overkill here, but an inexpensive field bus akin to 1-wire that would allow control and monitoring would be great. Imagine a smart micro LoadMatch...
Paul48 February 19, 2013 @ 9:00 PM
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TechnologyI think companies like Taco are only handicapped by the market itself. They have the resources to produce very advanced technologies. Getting them accepted in the market is another story. People don't change what they've done for years.
Solid_Fuel_Man February 19, 2013 @ 9:13 PM
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Very wellsaid!Always keep learning: observing what works, and what doesn't. Ask questions
knotgrumpy February 19, 2013 @ 9:27 PM
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That sounds rightI stopped in a supply house yesterday to order a few things. Mostly a forced air supplier with a little area for hydronics. They had a stack of 3 speed pumps.
I asked if he knew anything about the BumbleBee or the Alpha. Never heard of either. Said guys here just "keep it simple" and that I probably knew more than most techs in area.
Scary, since I sell carabiners and ropes.
Change is hard.
Chris February 19, 2013 @ 10:07 PM
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Think About ThisThere are roughly 12-16 guys that regularly post, help and share. I'll call them the ground troops in the trenches. You get a few manufactures that respond when necessary such as in this thread and a rep hear or there. Other then Bob Eck I don't think I've seen or heard from anyone that works in a local supply house.
This site is such a valuable tool for someone that WANTS to learn and it's a shame it isn't taken advantage of more. I work for a rather large HVAC distributor. I could walk into any one of our branches and not one counter guy or salesman ever visit this site nor others like it such as the Taco Neighborhood nor would they even know about them. Why? It's not because they haven't been provided the information, it's because supply houses are changing into McDonalds and Burger King. Point to the number you want I'll give it to you? What's the guy down the streets price? I'll match or beat it. Why is this?
In my opinion it's because the majority of contractors do the same thing. What do you want Mrs Smith, I'll get it..What was the other guys price? I'll match it. In this sea of hydronics there are few fish that get it compared to the thousands of minnows.
Until the minnows evolve and there are enough fish, technology in our industry will continue to evolve as fast as a snail moves.The biggest reason for the explosion of high efficiency and few evolved changes we have seen has been 90% driven by the consumer forcing the change in contractors not contractors working as an industry to make the change.
Thank you to the internet and sites such as this because without them we would still be stuck in 50's technology.
I'm done ranting now.."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
hot rod February 20, 2013 @ 11:01 AM
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There is a pointwhen the heat output from a convector drops quickly at low supply temperatures. Output charts show this clearly. So if you are running a system on ODR and forcing a ∆T would you not at some point run out of "driving temperature" and virtually no heat output from the panel rads or fin tube? Even in mild weather conditions buildings need some heat.
It seems manufacturers like Jaga and Runtal have keyed into that concept and now offer small fan assist rads to be used at low supply temperatures, realizing that forcing the convection (air movement across the fins) can compensate for the low temperature operation.
Solar, GEO, and mod cons are ideal low supply temperature generators. To leverage their efficiency low temperature operation is the key.
For years, decades really, companies like tekmar have schooled us on the near ideal reset curve, which almost perfectly matches the heat loss of a building. If you plot that "ideal curve" along side a curve with a forced ∆T the heat output "droop" is considerable at low supply temperatures. Pay attention to that with convection type emitters. Not so much on a radiant slab where the heat transfer is mainly radiant and MRT works to your favor.
I agree there is a time and place for ∆T function pumps, I can't see them being the ideal logic for all circ applications. It behoves the installer and designer to run some numbers, use the data and experience from the pioneers and base the component selection on the combination of the above.
To say one technology is better, or smarter than the other seems to limit your ability to offer both :)
John Barba February 20, 2013 @ 12:06 PM
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HI HRI've seen those plots as well...and one thing I can't quite figure out, and what no one has been able to adequately explain to me...is that heat output droops with a fixed speed circulator as well and, according to the charts, would't "work."
Not sure what that means, but it must mean something...
knotgrumpy February 20, 2013 @ 9:17 PM
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HR said what I was trying to say..."There is a point when the heat output from a convector drops quickly at low supply
temperatures. Output charts show this clearly. So if you are running a
system on ODR and forcing a ∆T would you not at some point run out of
"driving temperature" and virtually no heat output from the panel rads
or fin tube? Even in mild weather conditions buildings need some heat."
I would think version 2.0 of the Delta T circs are going to interface with the ODR, or incorporate ODR into the pump itself. It doesn't make sense to enforce the very specific design delta T throughout the entire season's worth of varying heating curves.
I've seen ODR supply temps at 105F. To reduce return temps to 85 degrees system wide is not going to be efficient.
Having said all of that, I think my current monstrosity of a 5 pump monoflow system would probably buzz along pretty sweetly most times on 5 BumbleBees because each pump would be adjusting to each individual zone's particular efficiencies and deficiencies.
The pressure will not change, so no need of delta P adjustments, but the cast iron convectors on one circuit definitely don't give up the BTU's as fast as the 3 column radiators on another zone.
Be really neat if I could get it down to 4 zones with the Bees mounted to a Caleffi Hydrolink ;-)
Chris February 20, 2013 @ 9:45 PM
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I have to DisagreeA heating system source of heat is predicated on the heat loss at design temp. The water temp from the heat source is designed based on the needed water temp to over come that heat loss based on the delivery of a specific flow rate to deliver the btu/hr needed through a heat emitter. All of this is predicated on the universal hydronic formula of gpm = btuhr/ (delta-t x 500).
If I can deliver the proper btu/hr at design I can deliver it at any given time. The pump will move the btu/hr I need. It doesn't care about a specific water temp. It is the designers responsibility to make sure the emitter can take the btu/hr from the conveyor belt.
This is a heating system and as a friend says, not the space shuttle we are building."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
hot rod February 20, 2013 @ 12:28 PM
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truebut the fixed speed circs are not being marketed as as "smart" circ. If the installer is to pay 2 or 3 times as much for an intelligent circ, then it needs to be able to perform magic. Well near magic.
If in the case of ODR controlled systems the smarter circ cannot offer better low temperature performance, under some conditions, then leave that out and focus on what it can add or offer, and the Bee seems to have plenty to offer.
So "Bee" it.
John Barba February 20, 2013 @ 2:04 PM
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Tru dat!Just because the pump is "smart," it doesn't mean the person using it doesn't need to be!
hot rod February 20, 2013 @ 2:43 PM
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Speaking words of wisdomlet it bee, let it bee :)
Chris February 20, 2013 @ 2:20 PM
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This is GreatThere are many lessons to be learned on this thread. One of the them is how two different mfg's can come together and provide excellent thoughts and insight in a great debate. Thanks HR and JB. Can't wait to get to ISH and see everything we want here and can't have. :)"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."
knotgrumpy February 21, 2013 @ 10:56 AM
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Take a pictureOf a mini circulator for me!
hot rod February 21, 2013 @ 5:07 PM
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knotgrumpy February 21, 2013 @ 7:25 PM
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Now that's what I'm talking about, Hot RodThey make so much sense.
In the picture on the left, do you know what sized pipe that it is attached to for some sense of scale?
On the right it looks like a Wilo display.
SWEI February 21, 2013 @ 10:44 PM
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Wilo displayGeniax is a jaw-dropper http://productfinder.wilo.com/repo/Graphics/00473791_0.pdf
knotgrumpy February 22, 2013 @ 9:40 AM
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That is a well developed system already...Thanks SWEI !
I have always thought that radiant pex manifolds are analogous to electrical panels that are feeding circuits by Romex cable. Distributing the energy captured in the water.
Looks like an electric distribution system.
Mark Eatherton February 21, 2013 @ 12:02 PM
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Mix-spelled German conference...It should be called WISH, cause you won't be seeing most of those products on this side of the pond. Too many lawyers.
But you WILL see lots of good free beer :-)
MEIt's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
Harvey Ramer February 22, 2013 @ 6:41 AM
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I have used the Bee anddelta-p both and I love them each and every one for who they Bee;) This Bee word is gonna go over big! The only Bee sting I got was when the sensor plug came loose from it's socket, generating a no heat call at 9 pm. on a cold windy night. I put it back in and it hasn't happened since. Probably didn't have it plugged in right in the first place.
Bee cool!
tom3holer April 17, 2013 @ 10:25 AM
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Bumblebee issuesI have 2 Bee's to be used in my home heated with an Alpine 80.
I installed the first one on the primary boiler zone in the fixed "CP" mode. I did this as the graph showed speed 2 to fit the requirements of 5' of head and 4.2 GPM. for a D/T of 35* The LED does show 22 Watts which is correct for speed 2 but the GPM shows 9.5GPM. That is over 100% error. Is the accuracy of the GPM readout really that unreliable? I even throttled the ball valve back a bit and the GPM readout actually went up and the wattage went down to 14. I just want to make sure that I am flowing te correct rate on the primary of the P/S plumbed setup.
My plan was to use the two of them on the two larger zones of my three zone house in the D/T mode. There is some repipeing yet to be done to the zones so I though I'd use one temporarly on the Primary to see how well it worked.
Has anyone had experience with these pumps to see if the PM readout is so error prone?
Thanks for any thoughts,
SWEI April 17, 2013 @ 12:18 PM
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what's your ∆T on high fire?can't speak to the display accuracy, but the boiler controls should tell you what the water temps are. Adjust the pump speed until you get what you want.
tom3holer April 17, 2013 @ 12:39 PM
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Yes, thank you I do understand that but am not sure about secondary interference. Will not the zone's effect the the boiler rise? It seems that if I am flowing less than the boiler with one zone on or flowing all zones with more than the primary it will effect the rise. I was going to do as you suggest, as I have a clamp on digital temp meter that reads D/T, but wasn't sure what do do with the zones.
SWEI April 17, 2013 @ 12:40 PM
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sorrythought this was on a boiler loop. Why not just leave the circ in ∆T mode?
tom3holer April 17, 2013 @ 9:45 PM
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D/TI had thought about that but am not sure of the reliability of the D/T mode with the use of sensors and all. That would be the way to go as it would keep D/T's the same no matter what the output. I just don't think that is a safe way to go in this new operating mode till its proven. Any thoughts?
SWEI April 18, 2013 @ 12:07 AM
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∆T circshave been around long enough. ECM circs have been around long enough. No reason not to trust the combination of the two.
tom3holer April 18, 2013 @ 10:00 AM
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Setting primary flowI am still a little uncomfortable using D/T as there is no way to set a min flow as a backup. I would like to set it by firing the boiler on high fire and setting the flow to get the 35* D/T as shown in the Alpine manual. My confusion comes with what to do with the secondary zones. Do they all have to be running?
TomThis post was edited by an admin on April 18, 2013 10:01 AM.
ced48 April 19, 2013 @ 11:26 AM
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How Can Youever get a delta t of 35 degrees on the boiler loop alone? The only way this kind of a delta t is possible is when a heating or other load is taking enough energy to get down to this level. Even with a "normal" heating loop, such a delta t is not likely.
I believe this is why boiler makers send such powerful pumps with their boilers. Many situations just don't make for the desired high delta t's.
Chris April 19, 2013 @ 11:32 AM
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They ProvideThe pump sizes they do because they are scared of who is installing them. By sizing the boiler pump for a smaller flow rate (large rise) it gives you the best chance of removing the btu/hr created by the boiler to the system side when piped pri/sec. The only time you need the full btu/hr out put of any boiler is when you are at design conditions and every single zone is calling.
The majority of the time the system cannot pull out the flow that carries the made btu/hr out of the boiler. No matter the rise chosen the only time you are going to get the full temp rise no matter a 20,25,30,35 is when you are under total design conditions unless that boiler flow matches what the system side is taking making the system delta-t the same. Its the flow the boiler pump is making that you want to be able to pull out to the system. Because what you can't pull out heads right for the boiler return.
Tom you cannot just open the zones. Use the charts for gpm and head and choose the correct curve. Unless today it's your coldest day of the year and the space needs heat you can't pull out the btu/hr created. You will never see a 35 degree rise!"The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."This post was edited by an admin on April 19, 2013 11:48 AM.
tom3holer April 20, 2013 @ 8:49 AM
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Design DayChris,
Thank you for the reply. I do have a pump that has a curve that matches the required flow for a 30* D/T.
I don't understand your statement:
"Unless today it's your coldest day of the year and the space needs heat you can't pull out the btu/hr created"
I don't unerstand what the OAT has to do with it. If its 60* outside and its 68* inside and I set all 3 Tstats to 72 and manually set the boiler to high fire with a water temp of design day, lets say 160 should I not be able to monitor the boiler rise and confirm my pump is pumping the correct amount? Yes, I realize it will not take very long to satify the Tstats, but it should be long enough to to the test.
You have a far greater understanding of these systems than I, and realize I am probably missing something.
TomThis post was edited by an admin on April 20, 2013 9:01 AM.
Chris April 20, 2013 @ 9:18 AM
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BecauseThere is no way in gods creation the emitter can pull out the btu/hr being delivery through the distribution system. If you don't pull out the btu/hr you don't cool the water so the delta across the zone will be small. Plus the pump is going to tell you how many gpm it's moving. Though not accurate, still a glitch in reading gpm accurately."The bitter taste of a poor installation remains much longer than the sweet taste of the lowest price."This post was edited by an admin on April 20, 2013 9:20 AM.
ced48 April 20, 2013 @ 9:56 AM
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Taco Claims the GPMreadout on the Bumblebee to inaccurate, an estimate at best.
I agree that it is impossible to get the 35 degree drop in any standard heating loop, unless it's so long that the room to room temp difference will be noticeable.
tom3holer April 20, 2013 @ 12:35 PM
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Chris and ced48Chris,
If all zones are on, and the house is over raidited with 198' of standart BB and 24' of Hicap, why won't I be able to pull all the btu's from the 80?
We are talking aout a D/T on the boiler loop not the zone side.
ced48 April 20, 2013 @ 4:48 PM
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The Boiler Loopon it's own can't possibly loose 35 degrees as it spins around a 10 foot loop, with nothing but the bare pipe as a heat remover, Can it? Please, someone explain if it can-


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What precisely is retinol and exactly what does it do?
Retinol is one of the types of vitamin A. It is considered by the Fda (FDA) as a safe more than enough medicine for over the counter cream and/or treatment. This is for that reason the kind of Vitamin A that is utilized in many antiageing cream.
Scarlett Johansson Natural Skin Care Tip
So obsessed is Johansson that she confessed to ELLE in the February issue that she really should have been a dermatologist. 'When you help someone to heal their skin, it gives them a new lease of life. I mean, have you ever met anyone with a skin condition? I'm good with that,' she said. 'A while back I started researching natural skincare,' she revealed.'It's a nice way to treat your skin if you don't want to use all those harsh chemicals that a dermatologist would recommend.
Kim Kardashian's Flawless Skin
Kim Kardashian makes regular trips to the dermatologist to maintain her flawless complexion using the laser. We've heard a lot about the benefits of Fraxel laser resurfacing of late, but we were curious to find out a few things before jumping under the laser, for example: Is there a lot of downtime? And, what should we expect on the day?
Heather Locklear's Bizarre Beauty Secret
Most bizarre beauty secrets typically involve pain but Heather Locklear's secret facial rejuvenation doesn't involve any needles. The actress's raunchy little secret to keeping her skin looking so young and radiant is…semen! Can you believe it? Find out what our expert says about this below.
Heather Locklear, 51, looks half her age but is her secret skincare worth a try? In a recent interview with TMZ.com, Heather was asked her advice on some good skin creams to help with the aging process. "You don't wanna know what I'm gonna to say," replied the television star. The reporter continued to pursue an answer out of her and, sure enough, he got an odd response.
Angelina Jolie's Skin Care Secrets
According to the Daily Mail, the 37-year-old Hollywood star is thought to be a fan of Dragon's Blood, Rodial's popular sculpting facial gel. Dubbed the 'Liquid Facelift', the beauty product works by adding essential volume to hollow skin. It claims to plump, sculpt and lift the complexion whilst protecting against ageing and reducing skin sagging. It is considered a less-invasive alternative to fillers, creating a youthful complexion without the needless and avoiding the common problem known as 'pillow face', where the cheeks look 'inflated'. 'With our new Dragon's Blood serum, women including our celebrity fans, are able to regain the youthful fullness in their face,' says a spokesperson for Rodial.


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The Inn is just 3 doors down from the Annapolis Royal Historic Gardens. Within easy walking distance you will find dining, shopping, museums and Fort Anne National Historic Site. Conveniently located in Southwestern Nova Scotia we are a perfect location for day trips to all destinations in the southwest region.
•All rooms are equipped with private bathrooms (a few with shower only)
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•Lord and Mayfair bath amenities
•CD clock radios
•DVD players and in-house DVD library available
•In-room telephones with complimentary local calls
•Iron and Ironing boards available
We are a fully licensed establishment offering spirits, beer and featuring wines from Nova Scotia
B&B Inn overlooking the gateway to Newfoundland
Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia Bed & Breakfasts
B & B one block from the Marine Atlantic Terminal to NL and the bus terminal. Large turn of the century house offers 8 rooms, ensuite baths and full breakfast. Amenities - cable TV, wifi, bicycle storage,alarms and air. Late arrivals accepted....
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Ocean front 4 1/2 Star B&B with a Million Dollar View located on the Cliffs of St. Mary's Bay. 2007 Pineapple Award for Excellence in Service . "We specialize in Pampering ". 4 Suites all with private bath,FULL breakfast,pristine nature,hiking,beach...
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The Parrsboro Mansion Inn was rated FODOR'S ONE OF THE WORLD'S TOP CHOICES and is part of the Bay of Fundy Recommended Experience. We are located at the Bay of Fundy, where the world highest tides take place, one of Canada's Natural World Wonders....
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Bridgetown, Nova Scotia Bed & Breakfasts
Harrington House B&B offers 2 rooms for your enjoyment, Room 1 has an ensuite bath, the second room has a private bath. A third room is available for a 3rd person. Our yard is 1.25 acres with secure parking and places to sit and relax. ...
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Hike Cape Breton Island - Freewheeling Adventures
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Renowned culinary vacations in Nova Scotia, Canada
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The results of a global survey administered by Harvey Nash and PA Consulting show CIOs are under pressure as they help bring their companies out of the recession and prepare for a new competitive landscape. The evidence suggests the recession is affecting job satisfaction for some CIOs. The good news: Many tech execs see their role as becoming more strategic. The bad news: A significant number of CIOs saw their salaries frozen in 2009 or even took a pay cut. Ann All discussed these trends and more with Andy Bookless, director of Government Services for Harvey Nash and project lead for the CIO Survey 2010 in a recent interview.
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SaaS apps that can help organizations, especially SMBs, gain a competitive advantage in innovation, strategy, integration and customer relations. ... More >>
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For millennials, social networking has become the key source for content discovery, drastically outranking online and customizable newsfeeds. ... More >>


text:
September 10, 2007
Albany - - Dougherty County School Superintendent Dr. Sally Whatley is preparing for her own report card.
School Board members were instructed Monday night on how to complete an annual evaluation on the Superintendent.
Board members have until next Friday to rate Dr. Whatley on her performance.
"When you work very hard and its your livelihood, its your job, you want those who evaluate you to see your work and to determine, make a judgement, according to the data as to whether or not you met the goals that you said you would meet. Obviously the seven members of the board are my bosses so its important," Whatley says.
She defended her job performance tonight, saying that Dougherty County's drop out rate has decreased, the graduation rate has increased, and the district's attendance rate has shown a slight increase.
Feedback: firstname.lastname@example.com?subject=whately/bs
P.O. Box 3130
Albany, GA 31706
(229) 446-1010
FCC Public File
(229) 446-4005
EEO Report
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Book your room at Holiday Inn Charleston Historic Downtown
Two Queen Beds, Non-Smoking, AccessibleMax Occupancy: 4 guests (up to 3 children)
Standard RoomMax Occupancy: 2 guests (up to 1 child)
One King Bed, Non-SmokingMax Occupancy: 2 guests (up to 1 child)
One King Bed, Non-SmokingMax Occupancy: 2 guests (up to 1 child)
Hotel in Charleston (Historic Charleston) near College of Charleston
This hotel is located in Charleston (Historic Charleston), close to Woolfe Street Playhouse, College of Charleston, and Children's Museum of the Lowcountry. Also nearby are Charleston Visitor Center and Music Farm.
Hotel Features
Recreational amenities at Holiday Inn Charleston Historic Downtown include an outdoor pool and a fitness center. Other amenities include laundry facilities and a business center.
Room Amenities
Televisions come with cable channels. Guestrooms also feature refrigerators, safes, and coffee/tea makers.Information missing or incorrect? Tell us!
Holiday Inn Charleston Historic Downtown
At your hotel
Holiday Inn Charleston Historic Downtown features an outdoor pool and a fitness center. Business-related amenities at this 3.5-star property consist of a business center and meeting rooms. This Charleston hotel also offers tour/ticket assistance, concierge services, and laundry facilities.
- Total number of rooms - 120
- Number of floors - 5
- Business center
- Concierge services
- Fitness facilities
- Computer station
- Tours/ticket assistance
- Laundry facilities
- Meeting rooms
- Outdoor pool
- Wedding services
In your room
- Refrigerator
- Coffee/tea maker
- Private bathroom
- Iron/ironing board
- In-room safe
- Television
- Desk
- Cable TV service
Recreational amenities at the hotel include an outdoor pool and a fitness center.
To make requests for specific accessibility needs, complete the "Special or Accessibility Requests" section of "Trip Preferences" when you book your hotel.
- Accessible parking
- In-room accessibility
The fine print for Holiday Inn Charleston Historic Downtown
When you arrive
Check-in time starts at 3 PM
Minimum check-in age is 21
When you leave
Check-out time is noon
You need to know
Extra-person charges may apply and vary depending on hotel policy.
Government-issued photo identification and a credit card or cash deposit are required at check-in for incidental charges.
Special requests are subject to availability upon check-in and may incur additional charges. Special requests cannot be guaranteed.


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A patient, powerful exploration of whether forgiveness and reconciliation are possible even after the most inhuman brutality, Mahamat-Saleh Haroun's Daratt is set in the aftermath of a vicious civil war in Chad. On coming of age, Atim (Ali Bacha Barkai), in handed a gun by his grandfather and told to avenge the murder of his father, who was killed many years before. Atim searches for and finds his father's killer: Nassara (Youssouf Djaoro), once a man of brutal violence, now a respected baker in his twilight years. Unable to kill Nassara instantly, Atim finds himself working with him in the bakery. Together they bake bread and, very slowly, an unexpected warmth creeps into their uneasy relationship. But is it enough to quell the desire for revenge? Daratt won the Special Jury Prize at this year's Venice Film Festival.
Cast & Credits
- Producer: Abdul Rahman Sissako
- Cinematographer: Abraham Haile Birul
- Editor: Marie-Helene Dozo
- Composer: Dana Farzanehpour
- Cast (in alphabetical order): Ali Bacha Barkai, Aziz Hisseine, Djibril Ibrahim, Fatime Hadje, Youssouf Djaoro


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Follow us on:
Berkshirenonprofits Raffle Recognizes Volunteers
By Kathy Keeser
03:44PM / Monday, September 24, 2012
NORTH ADAMS, Mass. — Being a volunteer for your community takes dedication and time. To thank those busy bees,Berkshirenonprofits.com is sponsoring a raffle for volunteers through Wednesday, Oct. 31.
More than $800 in gift certificates, ranging in value from $5 to $25, will be raffled off from participating businesses including Public Eat and Drink, Berkshire Emporium, Christo's Famous Pizza, Lickety Split, Persnickity Toys, Cariddi Sales, CJ's Sports Bar and Restaurant, Scissor Sisters, Olympic Pizza and Family Restaurant, Shima, The Local, Bark 'N Cat, Price Chopper, McDonald's and Papa Ginos.
"Volunteers are very important to area nonprofits and I am glad that this raffle will help to recognize volunteers for the role they play in helping to make our community a better place," said Joseph McGovern, executive director of Northern Berkshire United Way.
Drawings will take place at community events over the next month, including at the Children's Parade on Friday, Sept. 28, in North Adams. You do not need to be present to win at any of the drawings, but we will need your contact information.
To enter the raffle, register as a volunteer at Berkshirenonprofits.com or, if already registered, sign up for one or more volunteer opportunities to be automatically entered. There will also be special drawings for youth so specify if you are age 17 or younger.
In addition, all who volunteer at area nonprofits (school, church, agency, etc.) between Aug. 1 and Oct. 31, also can enter individually or through that organization. Send name, or names, with contact information (nonprofits can use themselves as contact for their volunteers), when and where the volunteering was done to
or to BNP c/o Kathy Keeser, PO Box 114, North Adams, MA 01247.
Board of Director
Disaster Action Team
Office assistance for small nonprofit
4-H Club Leader
Office Assistant
Kitchen Assistant
Outdoor Event Staff
event assistance/planning for BikeNB
Health/fitness mentor
Habitat ReStore Volunteer
Classroom Support for Childcare Centers
Managing Editor-website
Event Planning & Coordination
Meals on Wheels Drivers
Volunteer Ombudsman
Moving - helping people to make the move
Need New Directors
Food Pick up for Food pantry
Community Liaison
Transporting donated food
Be a PAL! Volunteer to Play with Homeless Children
Concessions volunteer
Community Event Volunteer
Usher for Performing Arts at MoCA
Moments House volunteer
North Adams Historical Society
Tourist Booth Volunteers
Join the Steeplecats Family!
Van Drivers
Home Building Volunteers
shift help
Hunger Study Interviewer
Volunteer Stewardship Assistant/Intern
Assistant for Early Intervention Program
Enrichment Staff
Youth Non Profit Seeking Volunteers
Male Mentor to Local Youth
View Complete List
©2010 BerkshireNonPorfits.com


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Time: 2 hours, plus freezing time. Store-bought ice cream works fine here, or you can make your own.
Sunset FEBRUARY 2010
1. Preheat oven to 350°. In a medium pot, bring 1 in. water to a simmer. Put chocolate and butter in a medium metal bowl and set bowl over pot, being careful not to let bottom of bowl touch water. Heat until chocolate is almost completely melted, then add sugar and eggs and mix thoroughly. Sift together flour, cocoa, and salt, then add to chocolate mixture, stirring well. Pour batter into a greased 10- by 15-in. baking pan. Bake until a toothpick inserted in center comes out clean, about 20 minutes. Let cool completely.
2. Invert brownie sheet onto a work surface and cut into 1 1/2-in. squares; arrange on pan. Freeze brownies 30 minutes. During last 5 minutes, remove ice cream from freezer to soften.
3. Working in batches, scoop 1 heaping tbsp. ice cream onto half of brownie squares. Set remaining squares, shiny side up, on top of ice cream and press gently.
4. Freeze until firm, at least 2 hours. Straighten tops of brownies and trim oozing ice cream with a paring knife if you like. Freeze, covered, up to 1 week.
Note: Nutritional analysis is per sandwich.
Go to full version of
Brownie Ice Cream Mini-wiches recipe


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Mohit Chauhan
|This biographical article needs additional citations for verification. (May 2011)
|Mohit Chauhan
Chauhan in 2009
|Background information
11 March 1966
Nahan, Himachal Pradesh, India[1]
|Himachal Pradesh, India
|Indian pop, Bollywood
|Guitar, Harmonica, Flute, Saxophone
|Years active
|1998 – present
Mohit Chauhan (born 11 March 1966) is an Indian singer, most known for his work as a playback singer for Bollywood movies as well as the former front-man of the Indipop band Silk Route. He is a two-time recipient of the Filmfare Award for Best Male Playback Singer as well as several other awards mentioned below.
Early life and career[edit]
Mohit Chauhan was born in the Nahan town of Sirmaur district, Himachal Pradesh on 11 March 1966.[1][2] He can speak fluently in Pahari, English and Hindi.[citation needed] He first attended St. Xavier's School, Delhi and then moved to Himachal Pradesh to complete his education.[citation needed] Chauhan graduated with a Master of Science in Geology from the Dharamsala College in Himachal Pradesh.[citation needed]
He never received formal training in music, but sings and plays guitar, harmonica and the flute. After completing his education in Himachal, Chauhan came to Delhi where he formed the band Silk Route with his schoolmate Kem Trevedi (pianist) in 1996. He started his career singing Indian pop songs with the band Silk Route, with Arpit Gupta which released two albums, Boondein (1998) and Pehchan. The song "Dooba Dooba" became a hit in the Indipop music scene. However, the band dissolved. He stayed off the scene for a while until he came back with the song "Guncha" in 2005 from the movie "Main, Meri Patni Aur Woh". He also composed that song. Impressed by his vocals, he was then approached by A. R. Rahman to sing for the movie Rang De Basanti. However, it wasn't until 2007 when music director Pritam approached him for the song Tum Se Hi for the movie Jab We Met that Chauhan finally achieved mainstream success.
Mohit Chauhan had his first brush with success with the song "Dooba Dooba" from the band Silk Route's album Boondhein. The album debuted at number one on the album chart. Boondhein featured songs in Hindi, English, and Pahadi, and the band won several awards at the awards in 1998.[3]
Chauhan's career in Bollywood began in 2002 when he sang "Pehli Nazar Mein Dari Thi" in the movie Road. His songs "Khoon Chala" and "Masakali" from the films Rang De Basanti and Delhi-6 respectively, composed by Rahman and "Tum Se Hi" from the film Jab We Met,[4] composed by Pritam, were successful. His subsequent chartbusters included the songs "Tu Ne Jo Na Kaha" for the 2009 film New York, "Ye Dooriyan" for Love Aaj Kal, and "Pehli Baar Mohabbat Ki Hai" for Kaminey. In 2010, he won the Filmfare Award for Best Male Playback Singer for "Masakali".[5] He also sang two superhit tracks "Bheegi Si" from the Movie Raajneeti and "Pee Loon" from Once Upon A Time in Mumbaai both arranged and directed by Pritam. His songs "Pee Loon" from Once Upon A Time in Mumbai,"Tujhe Bhula Diya" from Anjaana Anjaani directed by Vishal-Shekhar became chartbusters. He then sang "Yun Hi" from Tanu Weds Manu which is another addition to his superhit songs. His songs from the movie Rockstar (2011 film) have become anthems. He sang his first Bengali song for the movie Sedin Dekha Hoyechilo and also he sang his second Bengali song for the movie Paglu. He sang his first Tamil Song "Po Nee Po" for the Movie 3 with Anirudh.
In addition to film playback singing, Chauhan has sung many advertisement jingles for products including Alpenlibe, Parachute, Wheel (detergent), Nescafe, Hippo Munchies, Vicks Vapor Rub, Alchemist & Maruti Suzuki Alto (2011). He has also sung the theme song for Star Parivaar Awards 2011.
In 2007, he took part in singing reality show, Mission Ustaad on 9X, where he teamed with Vasundhara Das. He also took part in the singing reality show on STAR Plus, Music Ka Maha Muqqabla, where he led the team Mohit's Fighhter.
He has also performed at various college festivals across the country, like at Sparsh 2008, the annual cultural festival at Sardar Vallabhbhai National Institute of Technology, Surat, the Crescendo night of Alcheringa, the annual cultural festival of IIT Guwahati, in February 2013, and the Cultural Night of IIT Kharagpur in 2001, as well as IIT Bombay in 2009 and 2013. He recently also performed at the Star Night of the annual cultural festival, Engifest of Delhi Technological University on 16 February 2014.Latest at annual fest 'PULSE 'AIIMS Delhi ( heavenly seven ) on 20 September 2014.
In 2011 he featured in the third episode of The Dewarists collaborating with Indian Ocean for the song called Maaya. He was also featured on MTV Unplugged (India) in the same year. In 2013 he sang a song "Jad Se Judien" for the advertisement of L'Oreal Paris India.[6]
- Road (2002)
- Main Madhuri Dixit Banna Chahti Hoon (2003)
- Let's Enjoy (2004)
- Main, Meri Patni Aur Woh (2005)
- Adharm (2006 film) (2006)
- Rang De Basanti (2006)
- Jab We Met (2007)
- Kismat Konnection (2008)
- Ugly Aur Pagli (2008)
- Welcome to Sajjanpur (2008)
- Fashion (2008)
- EMI (film) (2008)
- Birugaali (2009) (Kannada)
- Delhi-6 (2009)
- 8 x 10 Tasveer (2009)
- Let's Dance (2009)
- New York (2009)
- Sikandar (2009)
- Love Aaj Kal (2009)
- Kaminey (2009)
- Tum Mile (2009)
- Crook (2010)
- Well Done Abba (2010)
- Badmaash Company (2010)
- Rajneeti (2010)
- Once Upon a Time in Mumbaai (2010)
- Shedin Dekha Hoyechilo (2010) (Bengali)
- Isi Life Mein (2010)
- Dus Tola (2010)
- Lafangey Parindey (2010)
- Aashayein (2010)
- Enthiran (2010) (Tamil)
- Anjaana Anjaani (2010)
- Dum Maro Dum (2011)
- Chillar Party (2011)
- Kucch Luv Jaisaa (2011)
- Dil Toh Bachcha Hai Ji (2011)
- Rockstar (2011)
- Paach Naar Ek Bejar (2011) (Marathi)
- Players (2011)
- Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara (2011)
- Teen Thay Bhai (2011)
- Tanu Weds Manu (2011)
- Aarakshan (2011)
- Love U...Mr. Kalakaar! (2011)
- Shakal Pe Mat Ja (2011)
- Paglu (2011) (Bengali)
- Bhatakti Tamanna (2011)
- Le Halwa Le (2012) (Bengali)
- 3 (2012) (Tamil)
- Ajab Gazabb Love (2012)
- Gali Gali Chor Hai (2012)
- Tere Naal Love Ho Gaya (2012)
- Jannat 2 (2012)
- Tezz (2012)
- Bol Bachchan (2012)
- Yeh Jo Mohabbat Hai (2012)
- Ek Tha Tiger (2012)
- Shirin Farhad Ki Toh Nikal Padi (2012)
- From Sydney with Love (2012)
- Qasam Se Qasam Se (2012)
- Barfi! (2012)
- Jab Tak Hai Jaan (2012)
- Pinky Moge Wali (2012) (Punjabi)
- Ameerin Aadhi Baghavan (2013) (Tamil)
- Ethir Neechal (2013 film) (Tamil)
- Matru Ki Bijlee Ka Mandola (2013)
- ABCD – Any Body Can Dance (2013)
- Zilla Ghaziabad (2013)
- Jolly LLB (2013)
- Bombay Talkies (film) (2013)
- Yeh Jawaani Hai Deewani (2013)
- Shortcut Romeo (2013)
- Kyun Hua Achanak (2013)
- Ramaiya Vastavaiya (2013)
- Boyss Toh Boyss Hain (2013)
- Issaq (2013 film) (2013)
- Shuddh Desi Romance (2013)
- Kerala Nattilam Pengaludane (2013) (Tamil)
- Mickey Virus (2013)
- Krrish 3 (2013)
- Dhoom 3 (2013)
- Heartless (2014 film) (2014)
- Shaadi Ke Side Effects (2014)
- Bewakoofiyaan (2014)
- Kaanchi: The Unbreakable (2014)
- The Xposé (2014)
- Heropanti (2014)
- Trip To Bhangarh (2014)
- Aa Gaye Munde U.K. De (2014) (Punjabi)
- Ishq Wala Love (2014) (Marathi)
- Mary Kom (film) (2014)
- Fuddu (2014)
- Jab Tum Kaho (2014)
- Tamanchey (2014)
- Ekkees Toppon Ki Salaami (2014)
- Bombay Velvet (2015)
- Boondein (1998)
- Pehchaan (2000)
- Kalam Poetry (2008)
- Sar Utha Ke Jiyo (2008)
- Fitoor (2009)
- Haar Ke Jag Se (2011)
- Maaya Maaya Re (2011)
|Filmfare Awards
|Best Male Playback Singer
|Masakali from Delhi-6
|Best Male Playback Singer
|Pee Loon from Once Upon a Time in Mumbai
|Best Male Playback Singer
|Sadda Haq from Rockstar
|Best Male Playback Singer
|Jo Bhi Main from Rockstar
|Zee Cine Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Pee Loon from Once Upon a Time in Mumbai
|Best Male Singer
|Jo Bhi Main from Rockstar
|Star Screen Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Pee Loon from Once Upon a Time in Mumbai
|Best Male Singer
|Phir Se Udd Chala from 'Rockstar'
|Apsara Film and Television Producers Guild Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Yeh Dooriyan from Love Aaj Kal
|Mirchi Music Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Masakali from Delhi-6
|Global Indian Films And Television Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Pee Loon from Once Upon a Time in Mumbai
|IIFA Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Pee Loon from Once Upon a Time in Mumbai
|Best Male Singer
|Naadan Parindey from Rockstar
|GIMA Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Pee Loon from Once Upon a Time in Mumbai
|Colors Screen Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Sadda Haq from Rockstar
|BIG Star Entertainment Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Sadda Haq from Rockstar
|Best Male Singer
|Jo Bhi Main from Rockstar
|Zee Cine Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Pee Loon from 'Once Upon a Time in Mumbai'
|Best Male Singer
|Sadda Haq from Rockstar
|Apsara Awards
|Best Male Singer
|Yeh Dooriyan from 'Love Aaj Kal'
|Best Male Singer
|Pee Loon
|Best Male Singer
|Jo Bhi Main from Rockstar
|Vijay Awards
|Best Singer - Male
|Po Nee Po from 3
|South Indian International Movie Awards
|Best Male Playback Singer
|Po Nee Po from 3
Other Awards and honors[edit]
- 2011: RMIM Puraskaar — Male Singer of the Year[8]
- 2012: Vijay Awards;- Best Singer - Male
- ^ a b "Get ready to sway along his tunes". Hindustan Times. 21 July 2011.
- ^ "Mohit Chauhan dedicates Film fare award to Himachal". nvonews. 2 March 2010.
- ^ Silk Route website. "Albums". Silk Route.net. Retrieved 5 March 2010.
- ^ "Jab We Met". The Hindu. 3 November 2007. Retrieved 5 March 2010.
- ^ Indo Asian News Service (28 February 2010). "Amitabh Bachchan, Vidya Balan claim top honours at 55th Filmfare Awards". Hindustan Times. Retrieved 5 March 2010.
- ^ Mohit Chauhan Jad Se Judien L'Oreal Paris India Song
- ^ "Filmfare Awards 2011 Winners". Times of India. 31 January 2012. Retrieved 20 February 2012.
- ^ "RMIM Purskaar 2011".
External links[edit]
- 1966 births
- Living people
- Indian playback singers
- Indian pop singers
- People from Himachal Pradesh
- Indian guitarists
- Filmfare Awards winners
- Indian musicians
- Harmonica players
- Bollywood playback singers
- Indian male singers
- Hindi-language singers
- Indian flautists
- Participants in Indian reality television series
- Ballad musicians
- People from Sirmaur district


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Projektplatsen.se - Projektplatsen Website Traffic Estimation
We have pulled stats for you about projektplatsen.se to help your research.
projektplatsen.se also reaches an unknown number of unique users each month and has 12 backlinks according to Alexa. The estimated monthly ad revenue is $ 0.00.
We estimate the website value of projektplatsen.se is currently at $ 0.00. Traffic and Revenue of projektplatsen.se is estimated to be stable within the last 3 months. The domain projektplatsen.se is a .se domain with the name projektplatsen preceding it.
The Server of projektplatsen.se is powered by the BigIP webserver software and the server is physically located in Sweden and uses the IP address 188.8.131.52. The average loading time of projektplatsen.se is 2353 milliseconds - this is faster than 31% of all other websites. At the DMOZ open directory project we found at least 1 listing for projektplatsen.se at this time.
Updated: 09/20/2014 06:50, 11 days ago
|Worldwide Rank
|Monthly Users*
|Monthly Pageviews*
|Website Value*
|Monthly Earnings*
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|$ 0.00
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|*Estimated Traffic and Value Data
Site TitleOnline project management software - Projectplace
Site DescriptionProjectplace is an online collaboration tool that allows you to manage single or multiple projects in a simple and efficient way. Try for free.
Keywords and Tags
dmoz ListingsTop» World» Svenska» Näringsliv» Resurser
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Server InformationThe webserver of projektplatsen.se is powered by BigIP webserver software. The server is located in Sweden. The IP address of projektplatsen.se is 184.108.40.206.
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Qbranch Stockholm AB
|Qbranch Stockholm AB
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Find records of Marie Croy
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Marie De Croy (born 1440) was born in ca. 1440 at Of,Renty,,France,. She was born into the Croy family.
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Beach House Preps Single, Tour
Used-to-bes are usually something of the past no one pays much attention to anymore, often time becoming the punch line to a cheap joke. The A-side off of Beach House's limited-edition, vinyl-only single, "Used To Be," squashes the notion that the Baltimore-duo is anything of the sort. Recorded over the summer of 2008, after months of touring, the release deliberates on the spiritual and physical effects of life on the ever-evolving road, love, and growing older.
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