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When I ask my friends to come to church with me I always get the same answer, "Church makes me uncomfortable." Some of them are athetiest with no interest in religion, some our Christians that don't know how to become a part of the church but most our agnostic and in need of spritual guidance that for some reason they do not find at church.
I was born into a Christian home and attended church (almost) all my life. I honestly enjoy going to church. I feel so at home. How can I share that feeling with others?
People feel uncomfortable in church because often new members of the congregation are not truly welcome. Churches like many other organizations develop a certain "group culture" over the years of their existance and are usually resistant to change. These are networks of friendships built over the years. The mission of the church also gets lost as it revolves around a series of planned social activities. In this context the church is more like a club or serivce organization in my opinion.
If as the "new person" you fit in thats fine, but if you don't you are going to feel uncomfortable. Younger people often do because their attitudes are at odds with the congregation, based upon their life experiences.
Congregations need to be more open and those that are too comfortable with their own status quo run the risk of being irrelevant to the society as a whole.
Well, when I have felt uncomfortable in church myself, I can link it to two reasons. One is that many churches have a message of condemnation rather than love. The second is that the community doesn't make room for newcomers and those newcomers don't know the unspoken rules for that community.
The latter has been true for me in other scenarios as well...I think fondly of someone who took the time to mentor me in exploration in other parts of my life...he helped show me the ropes and deconstruct the language that was used in that sub-culture.
Churches are human institutions.
I too face the same situation that you do lillou.
One thing I have come to realise is that whorship is often a bad way to introduce people to religion. Church services are full of symbolism and references to stories and theologies that are not fully explain in church services, and thus are meaningless to new commers.
Also many people have had really bad experiences with churches and religious people.
It is particularly difficult for people who have certain differences.
It is also difficult for those who have friends or family who have been excluded and condemmed by the church. They feel they might be betraying their family and friends by belongimg to a church. I myself stayed away from the church I belonged to today, because it was not wheelchair accessible. I was uncomfortable attending and supporting an organisation that excluded the disabled. It was wrong to do so (and that was what what I had been taught in Sunday School) So I was uncomfortable when I went and largely avoided church for twenty years until the church moved to a partially wheelchair accessible building.
Church can be uncomfortable if you are being preached something that you disagree with. Some people don't want to sit still while they have a minister tell them something that is against their values, and they have to sit there and take it. To me, that'd be more uncomfortable than sitting on thumbtacks.
Also, Protestant Churches are uncomfortable to me because of all the "Jesus Love" When people get really preaching about Jesus in a certain way I am really uncomfortable. Not the "He's was a great leader, teacher and humantarian" way, that's fine. But the "Take Jesus into your heart. Love Jesus! May Jesus love you and watch over you" stuff. It's like being at school and having to watch 2 love birds make out. PDA is awkward for onlookers, whether it's PDA between 2 people, or a person and a deity.
Finally, church can be uncomfortable when people expect you to follow certain traditions, but you don't know what the heck you're doing. Especially in Catholic churches, with the kneelings, and the communion, and all the rituals. If you don't know what's expected of you, and you feel self-conscious like everyone else is watching, that could make you feel uncomfortable.
I started 5 years ago as an adult. Besides the practical stuff (not knowing what to do when, not recognizing many Bible stories and thinking that "passing the peace" was just downright creepy etc.) I think the biggest factor for me was not knowing what I believed and thinking everyone else did. Also thinking that everyone else would want me to believe what they did. Lots of stereotypes about churches and church people in my mind (sad considering I had chosen a very liberal United Church lol). Realizing that church folk were regular folk was a surprise. Realizing that not knowing was OK and that other people had questions too was a surprise. Realizing that no one was out to convert me somehow was a surprise. Realizing that I didn't have to believe in the Bible literally (a deal breaker for me) was a surprise. It seems funny to me now. But that's how I arrived and it took time to realize those things.
The church was very welcoming. The minister was amazing about explaining things and being open to questions.
I don't think it is unusual for people to feel uncomfortable in unfamiliar situations where they don't know what to expect or what is expected of them. I also think that many people have preconceived ideas about what goes on in a church, or what church people believe. Also, some people may remember uncomfortable experiences in a church at some time in the past. If you friends say that they would feel uncomfortable before they have ever visited your church, that may be the reason - they don't know what to expect, they have preconceived ideas, or they remember bad experiences. I hope that visiting the WonderCafe might change some of those ideas about the UCC.
If they have visited your church with you for a few times and still feel uncomfortable you might want to look at what is happening in your church that would make them feel that way.
And for those who attend regularly: how are visitors and newcomers treated in your church? Does someone welcome them at the door? Are they given a program that is easy to read? Does an usher ask them where they would like to sit and show them to a pew (or chair)? Do the people sitting nearby smile or offer a welcome before the service? If they seem to have trouble finding their place in the order or service or the hymnbook does somebody nearby help them? Does the minister welcome newcomers from the pulpit? How is the offering handled - are visitors expected to contribute - or given the opportunity?
After the service does anybody invite them to sign the visitors book? Find out their names and where they are from? Are they invited to the fellowship time, and does somebody accompany them to the parlor or gym (or wherever it takes place), help them get serviced and introduce them to a few others? Are they invited back?
If they have physical needs, do they get the assistance they need? Is your church user friendly to wheelchairs, hard of hearing, vision impaired? If they have children with them, does somebody let them know where the nursery and Sunday School are, and also let them know that their children are welcome to stay with them?
Are the washrooms well marked? Accessible? Clean?
I have always felt comfortable in the church I'm attending, from day one. But I have visited other church, other denominations, and sadly to say other UCC where I wasn't even spoken to.
Maybe instead of inviting your friends to the regular Sunday morning worship, you might introduce them to a small group study or discussion group, a Sunday evening of music, or a special speaker or workshop taking place in the church, or a potluck lunch. Or take them in one day during the week, show them around, introduce them to the minister, the secretary and anybody who might be around.
When I started going to our local United Church two years ago, my atheist, agnostic, and New Age friends exclaimed incredulously: "What, you are going to church!? But you don't believe in any of that stuff!"
They are right; I don't literally believe in any of the stuff I hear in church. But I take it seriously and metaphorically, and from my mystical experience it is all profoundly albeit metaphorically true.
What is a turnoff to many people is that these profound metaphors are not always presented as metaphors or taken metaphorically in church. The language of the Bible, of our liturgy and hymns, is not overtly metaphorical. On the contrary, it is designed to be taken literally. And, when taken literally, it sounds absurd or irrational to most modern people.
This, I think, is the biggest turnoff. Another might be preaching at rather than preaching to people, or being an exclusice Christian social club.
Luckily, in the United Church and other liberal Proestant denominations, the Bible, liturgy, and hymns are presented to be metaphorical, and the deeper, profound and divine truths beneath these metaphors are actively and eagerly explored. Unfortunately, those progressive denominations and congregations have, so far, not done a good "selling job," and have permitted the far more vocal fundamentalists and literalists to define Christianity.
But the Emerging Spirit Campaign, wondercafe, and the various outreach programs undertaken by progressive congregations are beginning to change that.
Another less obvious and frequently overlooked reason for low church attendance might be the very rationality that is espoused by many modern Christians. This rationality compells them to regard the language of the Bible, of liturgy and the hymns as metaphorical, and literal interpretations as irrational, but it also prompts them to regard mystical experience as irrational.
Mystical experience, however, is at the very root of our faith. If we cut ourselves off from our mystical roots, then our religion will atrophy and die, and we will be left with just a secular, moral ideology.
I would like to emphasize, though, that it is the mystical experience in itself that is of tremendous value, not the literal truthfulness of the interpretation. Taking the interpretations of mystical experience literally got us into the current dilemma in the first place. But if we were to encourage mystical experience, and take the interpretations and explanations of it as metaphorically as everything else, then there there might indeed be a revival of church and an increase in church attendance.
By "mystical experience" I mean what we experience when we turn inward in quiet contemplation, prayer or meditation, away from the distractions of our everyday lives and the incessant chatter of our thoughts, and away from our world of concepts. What we experience then is, in my opinion, an experience of God, or the Divine, which is more powerfully compelling than any literalist doctrine can possibly be.
One of the things that makes me uncomfortable in church is the feeling that I am there under false pretenses. Merely by attending I am giving the impression that I am a Christian, when in fact I am not. However the relative anonymity of most of the church services I have attended has been helpful in that regard.
I have accepted invitations to church from my in-laws, but it was made clear to me that I was under no obligation to participate beyond standing up at the correct points, and that accepting the invitation did not create the expectation that I would do so in the future. This went a long way to making me more comfortable. Your friends may be concerned over ultimately disappointing you should they accept your invitations.
I have felt very uncomfortable at my friend's old church -- and I've checked out his new church on the internet, I know I'll be uncomfortable there, too. Thus, I only go to his church when he really wants me there (like when he had his membership ceremony), but otherwise try to stay away from his theology. Both his old church and his new church are those "non-denominational" types -- the big box churches.
There were two key things that really bothered me...
1) The exclusion of any group of people. Now, I've never been excluded from anything since I am a straight fully-able Christian who was baptised and confirmed. But to hear that the church doesn't welcome GLBTTQ persons (or they spout that "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap), makes me uncomfortable. To hear that the church will not perform same-sex marriages as it is against their beliefs, bothers me. For the minister to announce during communion that communion "is only for those who have personally accepted Jesus into their hearts -- and if that's not you, I ask you to pass," infuriates me. (On the fully-able issue -- my friend's churches are more accessible than my own United Church, but we're undertaking a major project to take us from partially accessible to fully accessible -- we're putting in an elevator and a parking lot next year.) To hear other religions and faiths described as "misguided" and on a path to hell, upsets me.
2) The guilt-ridden and blood-filled theology makes me very uncomfortable. To hear, recite, or sing that we are all guilty sinners who should have been sent to hell but are saved because Jesus, the only perfect one, died for you and your sinful ways -- and that if you accept Jesus in your heart you are washed clean by the blood as the blood falls from the wounds and washes over you -- really makes me uncomfortable. I remember one song, the chorus was "Wash me clean in your blood" sung over and over. I find that imagery, and the accompanying guilt factor, to be unnecessarily gory and dark.
^Oh, and there were no ushers, greeters, bulletins, signs, or directions. The building is massive and it took a few minutes to find which door to go in and where the sanctuary was. No one said "Hi" -- other than my friend's family. There were all these customs and traditions I knew nothing about -- and didn't have a bulletin to guide me (or bury my nose in).
When I ask my friends to come to church with me I always get the same answer, "Church makes me uncomfortable." Some of them are athetiest with no interest in religion, some our Christians that don't know how to become a part of the church but most our agnostic and in need of spritual guidance that for some reason they do not find at church.
I was born into a Christian home and attended church (almost) all my life. I honestly enjoy going to church. I feel so at home. How can I share that feeling with others?
It sort of looks like you answered your own question in the first paragraph. Perhaps they are uncomfortable because they are atheist, or non-practicing Christians, or agnostic.
This seems fairly clear that they are not interested, so why do you feel that it is so necessary to "fix" them? Can you take their answer as simply being honest?
Your needs are perhaps different than their needs.
This approach is sort of like getting a telephone solicitor trying to convince me to buy something I don't need, or switch telephone plans, etc. I'm simply not interested, and that is the end of the matter.
lill - Much has been made in the responses above about the "message" that the Church presents in determining whether or not it is welcoming. But think of a greeting card - if you don't find just exactly the right message, does that mean that you will never send a birthday, Christmas, sympathy, get well or any other card? Usually you will be comfortable with something that is close. So will anyone ever find a message in any church that exactly conforms to what they believe? Probably not. But then, who is presenting that message? The minister? The denomination? The congregation? Individuals within the congregation? I submit that each of these will have a different approach to their faith, and the message will be much more mixed than your friends expect (as has been pointed out above). Another tactic: ask your friends what they think "church" is. They are probably wildly misinformed, so you might advise your friends that they might be surprised by the reality.
However, there is an important second point here. The "message" has more to do with points of belief or statements of faith or the contents of a minister's sermon. How a worship service is conducted also sends a message. For me, music is another mode of communication, which speaks to me no less than a message from the pulpit. So if the music consists of two-hundred-year-old songs sung in a dirge-like fashion with the organ as the focus, the message to me is simple: I'm not welcome there. That congregation/worship team is so disinterested in welcoming me that they couldn't be bothered to try something a little more recent, or imaginative. So when churches like that insist that they are a "friendly" church, I respond - "you need to try a different pair of glasses". Let's face it, the worship culture of so many churches is totally alien to the musical sensibilities of most people under 60 yet those churches are resolutely against making any changes to their style of worship. Once again, that says to me, "you're not welcome here". And in this regard, most ministers, music directors and congregations don't even have a clue about where to start.
What is a turnoff to many people is that these profound metaphors are not always presented as metaphors or taken metaphorically in church. The language of the Bible, of our liturgy and hymns, is not overtly metaphorical. On the contrary, it is designed to be taken literally. And, when taken literally, it sounds absurd or irrational to most modern people.
I agree with this. I have many intelligent, thoughtful, caring friends who also happen to be agnostic. As Arminius says, they choose to reject church worship because the literal interpretation of the scriptures sounds both absurd and irrational.
And I'd be the first to agree that metaphors are such slippery creatures. Often you think you've caught them, only for them to slip away.
What is a turnoff to many people is that these profound metaphors are not always presented as metaphors or taken metaphorically in church. The language of the Bible, of our liturgy and hymns, is not overtly metaphorical. On the contrary, it is designed to be taken literally. And, when taken literally, it sounds absurd or irrational to most modern people.
I agree with this. I have many intelligent, thoughtful, caring friends who also happen to be agnostic. As Arminius says, they choose to reject church worship because the literal interpretation of the scriptures sounds both absurd and irrational.
And I'd be the first to agree that metaphors are such slippery creatures. Often you think you've caught them, only for them to slip away.
Yes, P.P., to assume that metaphors have an all-applicable fixed meaning is almost as dangerous as taking them literally.
Everyone has to explore the meaning of divine (or any other) metaphors for themselves and discern their own truths. Discerning the meaning of metaphors actually is a co-creation between the original creator and the later contemplator. Although the original creator may have had a particular meaning in mind, the contemplator also invests it with meaning, which may or may not be the same as that of the original creator.
I think the interpretation of metaphors is as much a creative process as the original creation.
I feel uncomfortable in church because (and the last time I was at a service was about 18 years ago) I feel it is all about how evil I am and how "good" people should not be like me. I hate almost everything said, and dissagree with it. I have found it degrading and offensive and against nature, and that if the people around me knew what I think, they would stone me! I hate the muted organ music, the hallowed quiet, the holy writ, the robes, the golden crosses and especially the psalms.
I was at a funeral actually, I just remembered, two years ago, I knew it would be religious, but thought it would all be about my deceaced uncle and not include a sermon, but oh how wrong I was! The preacher went on about how important it is to be saved and go to heaven and how serious this is, totally off topic in my book! And disrespectful considering some of the guests were not religious, including 3 of the deceaced's 4 children.
The only time you'll see me at a church now, is if it has good architecture and is empty except for tourists.
Both sides, the visitor and the church, tend to be suspicious of each other.
The visitor is suspicious of the church. Will they try to convert me? Are they really just after my money? Will they want me to do anything strange? Will they single me out in any way kind?
The church is suspicious of the visitor. Just who is this person? What are they doing here today? How will they effect our worship? Are they one of us? Will they bring any kind of difficulty to us?
The visitor needs to be welcomed. The church needs to be assured. Both need to be understood and loved. If we dare.
Elanorgold - I HATE it when that happens at a funeral. The last time that happened to me was at my Grandfather's funeral. I know he wouldn't have liked it either, but his sister was in charge. I was furious - furious for the abuse that the preacher heaped on us, furious for the way he abused the faith, and most furious because now I will always remember my Grandfather's funeral as a hugely negative event.
Preachers who use funerals to win converts are the lowest form of church scum.
Totally agreed Elanorgold and RevMatt. My friend's mother's pentecostal's funeral was much the same. However, I hated my grandmother's Catholic funeral even more. Instead of proselytizing, the Priest just led a *normal* service with writings that didn't seemed connected to her at all, or a lose, or a remembrance in general or anything. The only thing that made it was funeral was the first 5 minutes of the 60 minutes service in which the Priest briefly told a "story" about her. But get this - the story was made up! He has a token "madlibs" style story that he just puts people's names into.
It was so incredibly offensive to me, that was the final step that switched of my feelings towards Catholicism.
I don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that one of the church's greatest assets is also one of its weaknesses. And that's that it is one of the last few intergenerational communities around. Intergenerational connection is wonderful once you know people but can be very intimidating and uncomfortable if you are new. I know that for me it is often difficult to meet new people but even harder when we are at different stages in life...cms
I feel/felt uncomfortable in church for several reasons. Unfamiliarity with 'how things are done'. Discomfort with the amount of singing of unfamiliar music (I can't carry a tune in a bucket). Recognising neighbours sitting around me who have never demonstrated caring or acceptance or kindness to my family (think racial slurs etc).
I listened to the readings, the words of the hymns and the sermon and realised that I hadn't seen the people around me doing much of that. Friends who never went to church were at least, if not more, caring. When I stopped showing up there was no response from the church.
Just a couple of posts
At a funeral people were asked to raise their hand if they wanted to be saved - very offensive to me and the Catholic Woman I was sitting beside.
Christmas Eve - I have seen communion served in a church where there was only one Christmas Eve Service - filled with strangers - most were unused to the ritual of the church - they looked very uncomfortable. I think this leads me to start another thread.
Eleanorgold - I'm curious. Why do you assume that all churches are as you have described? Just because I don't happen to like novels written by Ayn Rand, does that mean that all novels and novelists will disappoint me? Have you actually attended a UCC worship services within the last 18 years to justify what you say here (or perhaps two services of two churches just to give you an idea of how different to churches from the same denomination can be)?
RevMatt: Go RevMatt! Thanks For your comments. Glad to know you concur on that point. Final sentence gave me a great chuckle!
ModernGirl: That really sucks! What a worthless priest. I would be so mad too. One could do a better service yourself!
Spiritbear: Rightly asked. I didn't know a thing about the United church til about 2 years ago, and was very pleasantly surprised. I haven't been to a service though. I've only been to two Pentacostal services and a funeral, and one secular funeral that was hijacked by pentacostals, and maybe two or three Anglican christmas services, in different churches, and another funeral, I don't know what denomination. Oh, and one Ukranian Catholic wedding, which was fun. Liked the crowns and walking around the alter bit and the overall mood was jolly and less serious. So far as I know though, they all use the same bible and believe Jesus is the savior, and that is enough to turn me off. I would be interested to go to a Unitarian service though.
Many interesting points have been mentioned so far. But I would add others aspects which are minor – i.e. have nothing to do with theology for example – but still disconcerting. These points apply to the Anglican Church, the Roman-Catholic Church, and I'm sure to some extent to other Churches including the Anglican Church.
– Vocabulary.
Common words used to present basic issues are a bit hermetic to people who haven't been raised in a "church culture". Things like "being saved", "born again", etc.
– Too many words to talk about God.
As much as I like the fact God sent his only son to save us – and me –, I often like the simplicity of other faiths in that regards. Muslims, for instance have Allah, period.
– Singing.
I know it's part of the tradition and we have lots of lovely hymns. But younger people are raised on youtube, on downloading or buying music, etc. rather than performing it. It's probably not a coincidence that churches with a band attract a larger percentage of teenagers.
– Sermons.
Content wise, there are very good ones. I think good sermons have either spiritual content or theological content (or both), without being judgemental. But for many people, you would need to add a blackboard, slides (with key points or photos to illustrate the subject).
There are some churches that I have been to that I felt that if I wasn't 'church people' then I shouldn't be there. 'Church people' seem to be whatever race is predominant in the congregation, dressed up, either married or single (nothing in between) and straight. I went to an Anglican church where I was not spoken to by anyone who didn't have to speak to me for the two years that I attended. I did make an effort but my efforts were completely shut down.
I have also been to churches where I was grabbed at the door and out it by people wanting to get to know me and invite me to coffee time. I really like it when a church offers communion to anyone who feels that they can.
For a long time I felt sinful. I refused to take communion because I never felt pure and without guilt so I did not feel that it was acceptable for me to take it. If I went into a church I would sit and cry most of the time. At that time it had nothing to do with the church as to why I didn't want to be there but everything to do with how I was feeling at the time.
I no longer attend church. I sat in the pews and, before I got disabled, I preached from pulpits. I not longer attend not because I feel uncomfortable; but because I feel annoyed and/or bored. I've been exposed to United Church, Roman Catholic, Anglican (high and low), fellowship Baptist, Convention Baptist, Regular Baptist, Closed Brethren, Mennonite Brethren, Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc. As part of my research in Reformation Studies, I concluded that the church is now, and has been since the second century AD (or CE if you're so inclined), predominately a secular movement. Yes, even the Reformations (European, English and Catholic) were largely due to secular influences. As a newcomer, I was ignored, and I was hugged. I was welcomed, and I was grilled on whether I was saved. My son and daughter in law attend church regularly, and are heavily involved. I encourage them to continue to do so. I enjoy more fellowship at Tim Hortons than your average chuirch -- and the coffee is much better. One pastor in a conservative church cried through his sermon how difficult he had it as a pastor (someone dared disagree with him at a Board meeting. He waved his hankie around as he spoke. Gross!) Rather than drop ten bucks into the offering plate, I'd rather play the lottery or go to a casino. At least I know my money is going for more than to finance the ego trips of a select few. Hatred is not the biggest enemy of the church; it's indifference.
This is totally unrelated, but what the heck. When I was in theological college, a group of us went out for coffee to a 'nicer' place than McDonald's. One fellow ordered a blend called, 'Canadian Coffee.' It was so strong, he was wired and awake for the next three days! Maybe we should serve that blend a half hour prior to church, eh? (My former elementary school teacher (one room public school) told me I was impossible. She was right!)
I agree. Southy, you could do better, eh? At least stick with Starbucks! They're cool!! They're like the "High Anglican" of coffee shops.
Yes, yes, Starbucks is wonderful. If you don't mind paying $5 for an overly strong coffee cup.
High Anglicans can usually afford it.
I attended a church once that insisted on 'hugging'. I pointed out to the pastor that one of his older male members was 'getting his jollies' while hugging the women. Some didn't return and were too embarrassed to bring it up. Even simple gestures can be misused unfortuately. The practice went by the wayside.
I know I took a long time to reply but I hope you still respond to this post! You said that ""passing the peace" was just downright creepy ", would you be just as uncomfortable with people just going around and greeting each other?
Hi lillou, who were you asking? I will respond since I do find "passing the peace" a tad icky. It just feels fake to me. Everyone turning to their neighbor and saying the exact same phrase and getting the exact same automatic answer. I'm much more comfortable with a less regulated greeting time in which people can greet using their own words.
Why would you feel uncomfortable in church?
1. You don't know anyone there.
2. You have to stop watching Sunday morning television fishing shows and cartoons by 9:30 am so you can make the service on time. It's quite a strain.
3. You could have gone skiing instead.
4. As friendly as they all seem at coffee and conversation after the service, you can't help feeling as if you are sitting in someone else's living room.
5. You're getting almost as old as the rest of 'em there so your ass is getting kind of scrawny and those pews are @#$%^&* HARD!
6. You thought when they asked you to chair that committee that they actually wanted your input.
7. Nothing ever changes.
8. If they ever change the way they do things, you might have to give them more of your time and money ...
9. Sitting on one's wallet for a full hour and a half is a long and difficult job and can lead to back problems.
10. You've been away so long that you're afraid they'll make a big deal of it that you came back.
I've felt uncomfortable at different churches when I was centred out as a visitor even though I was promised that it wouldn't happen. Here's a youtube video that addresses some of the concerns about why some people don't go to church, I really like the "only girly men go to church".
Spirit bear says: Once again, that says to me, "you're not welcome here". And in this regard, most ministers, music directors and congregations don't even have a clue about where to start.
Sb, you echo what most people have said here, and I have to say, I feel like I've been kicked in the teeth. Hard. Several times.
Our church is welcoming--I have watched the congregation warmly greet and welcome newcomers, but we never swarm people or ask them to be involved on boards or anything until they give some clue they might like that. Our organist is lively; the music is mostly traditional but never dull or slow. We are not literalist or fundamentalist or exclusive or judgmental. Preaching is varied, but contemporary, carefully prepared with the lives of the congregation in mind. Spirituality is far more likely to be encouraged than 'toeing the line;' I scarcely know the word dogma and don't know what that would be around here. I would challenge anyone to find one of our regular attenders who is being a hypocrite by turning up on Sunday, and not living out their faith during the week. These are wonderful, sincere, salt-of-the-earth folks. Our funerals take about 1/2 hour, unless family members speak longer than the usual 10 minutes when they're offering tributes; the service is personalized and often includes humour and offers the comfort of the care of the faith community, without trying to convert anyone. Many, many folks have come up to me after funerals and said, "If you were our minister I'd go to church"--but I doubt they would--lots of folks here for whom I am the minister are very, very appreciative of my ministry but never come to church. I think they don't know what they're missing, but they assume they wouldn't like it if they did come. I think it's horribly unfair and unjust to judge all churches (and you don't want us to be judmental!!!) by some experience you had years ago, especially if it wasn't even a United Church. That's just not fair. We stand unjustly accused.
Again I will ask: did anyone go to church as a response to God's love, or to worship, or to learn and grow in the faith, or was it some kind of passive-aggressive looking for attention-but-not-really-wanting-it? I'm very much not a Roman Catholic; but I attend there occasionally with my grandkids or for funerals, and while I may object (I do object! I"m a Protestant!) to some of their practices or beliefs, I also know that their church has turned out some wonderful, loving, sincere, compassionate people and I do not condemn them for the things I don't like. I wouldn't make it in the Baptist church, and I guess if that was my only option for attending worship it would be difficult for me; but for heaven's sake, DO NOT put us all in the same basket. Be honest. Be fair. Of course you're not comfortable where you don't know your way around! If you change jobs, what do you do? You learn! You try! If you move to a different city, you don't just hole up in your apartment--you learn your way around. I have been involved in the United Church all my life--and they're not all the same--but I've never ever run into a nasty congregation like what some of you are describing. Try again. And please be decent to the rest of us, whom you have never visited. Please. I'm bleeding here.
Has anybody considered that it's all the fault of the pews?
Yes, if you're talking about physical discomfort.
We use chairs at my fellowship. They are of the stackable meeting room variety, but they are still an improvement over many of the pews that I've sat in over the years. I wonder if anyone has ever figured out how to build ergonomic pews? Because it's not the hard seat that bothers me the most nowadays. It's the lousy support for my back.
our pews are padded.
As for nothing ever changes--wrong.
They want more of my time and money. But I am part of the church any money I vote to spend is my choice. One can only give what one can give. Since in reality the people are the church it is the people who decide what to spend and how and where.
I feel quite at home and the folks are indeed friendly we are a community. It works for me.
As far as sharing the peace goes and you don't like those words use some others.
And yes they do want my opinion. I am part of "they". I have a say.
Our service is 60-65 minutes. But with padded pews my ass wouldn't really complain. I wear a pouch so I don't have to sit on my wallet.
Some do take a Sunday of and go skiing or golfing, here almost 12 months of golfing.
I don't usually watch TV on Sunday mornings. I have better things to do like get Breakfast, take a shower etc. Whose got time to watch TV.
Weeze - I think you're missing the point of my comment from two years ago. Yes, the individuals in the congregation are no doubt warm and welcoming (and even if they were not, they would probably be just like me, so how could I criticize?). Yes the theology invites challenging and thought-provoking questions and searches for deep answers. But we are talking about worship here - how do you keep people engaged and interested enough so that they keep coming back Sunday after Sunday for the rest of their lives? You've heard the words of Christ's message before. Words that startled people out of complacency when they were first uttered. Words that are just as valuable and relevent today as when they were first spoken. But do we need to keep returning every Sunday to hear these words again?
Before you answer that, my own answer would be yes - there's more than words involved in worship and in the message. And that's where my issue lies about the other message that we've been ignoring - specifically, how we present the Message is also a message (McLuhan, anyone?). And we can't present that message exclusively in a way that hasn't changed for decades or centuries and expect that it will be as engaging as ever. So why are we afraid of using our imaginations to present that message in a new and fresh way? Laziness? Dullness? Lack of creative talent? Burnout (tried that once and it didn't work)? I have no problem with traditionalists worshipping in a fashion that suits them. But it just doesn't work for me (and my children) who end up being bored out of our tree. Can't the UCCan designate at least ONE church in metropolitan areas that will do things a bit differeanntly? Do all UCCan churches really have to be SO similar, such that the only real difference is the "friendliness" of the congregation. Well, the people may be friendly, but the worship leaves me emotionally starved. And to repeat once again - don't take that as a criticism of people who find that existing worship styles suit them just fine. Just don't assume that there's only one way of doing worship.
So weeze, I'm not saying that you're an unpleasant or unwelcoming person. I just wish that the circumstances under which we might meet on a Sunday morning would be less soporific.
I understand what you're saying............
It's why some folk travel up to 150klms every Sunday to attend our church.
Firstly, you need a wonderful orator who knows how to deliver a good sermon - with a message that relates to life as we live it today.
At least once every two months we have "guests" - usually ministers or theologians from interstate or overseas who likewise know how to make a service interesting.
When it comes to selecting hymns, our liturgy committee sees what "works". (If you listen you will notice that there are particular hymns that your congregation enjoys singing - repeat them regularly.)
Taize chanting, music by Scott Kearns, "modern" words to familiar hymn tunes........
We always include Bible readings - there is always a place for tradition IMO.
We are an inner-city church. It would be more difficult for a small congregation in a small town.............
As I posted on another thread I have not been in church for over 5 years and have panic attaches when I think about going to a service.
I grew up in the united church and have two theology degrees. Worked as both a lienced supply and pupit supply in the United chruch. Then I moved to small rural community out side of Ottawa. (I work in the city) I atttended the local United chruch for several years and tired to become part of the congregation.
But I was not from the community, I was from down east, had no connections to the community. I was single without children. I was educated, I was actually made to feel like my schooling was something I should be ashamed of. qwerty I was asked to sit on several commitees and when I gave my opinion I told to shut up. To this day members of the church have no idea why I left. They have never asked. they do not want to know.
I agree with much of what has already been said. Most churches are not really looking for new members, they say they are but don't really mean it. They are looking for more of the same. If you are a young family from the area they really make you welcome. If you are a 50 something single from out side the area you are looked at with judgement.
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Boys will be boys, but, as Scott Boras says, "Shooting, stabbing or cannibalizing a player is not a part of bb or being a proper teammate."
— Tim Brown (@TBrownYahoo) May 21, 2014
Desperate Cubs Fan Resorts To In-Game Cannibalism
Luis Suárez Given Ten Match Ban In Order To Chew Over What He's Done
Liverpool striker Luis Suárez earned a ten-match ban for biting Chelsea's Branislav Ivanović during Sunday's match at Anfield. »
New York Policeman Arrested On Charges That He Planned To Slow-Roast…
Well, this is pretty much the grossest thing. It happened in neither Florida nor Ohio, though. Rather, it unfolded in the nation's greatest city. Reports The New York Times:
German Adventurer May Or May Not Have Been Eaten By A Fugitive Cannibal…
This much is certain: 40-year-old Stefan Ramin's ashes were found near a cooking fire on the island of Nuku Hiva, in French Polynesia, last week. From there, uncertainty emerges. »
How Much Would It Take For You To Be A Cannibal?
A Children's Treasury Of Mascots Eating People
Mascots are running wild at our sporting events, both home and abroad. Who will put a stop to the madness? And why won't the music coordinators at these arenas use Temple of the Dog in place of Weird Al? »
A Modern List Of People Who Eat People
Yes, we all know about Jeffrey Dahmer's voracious appetite for wayward boy meat, but there were plenty of others who partook. 1974 Uruguayan rugby team not included. [Mental Floss] »

subset: commoncrawl


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LOUISVILLE, Ky. -- The Walk MS is Sat., may 18 at Papa John's Cardinal Stadium, Gate 4. Gates open at 8 a.m. and the walk begins at 9:30 a.m.
There are 1, 2 and 3 mile options and the route is 100% accessible. Snacks and water will be provided.
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Round 1: Cholish bounces on the outside. Both pump their jabs. Tibau delivers a right hand to the body of Cholish. Cholish goes to the body with a kick. They exchange and Tibau connects with a right hand. Cholish throws a kick that Tibau catches and gets the fight to the ground. Cholish gets back to his feet. Tibau catches another kick and lands a combination. They stand on the center logo. Cholish throws a kick to the body that's caught and Tibau lands a left hand down the middle. Tibau changes levels and secures a takedown with authority. Cholish quickly gets back to his feet. Tibau closes the distance looking for a double leg takedown. Cholish defends the attempt. The round ends. MMAWeekly scores the round 10-9 for Tibau.
Round 2: Tibau leaps in with a flying knee. Cholish moves forward. Not a lot of action through the first minute of the round. They clinch. Tibau presses Cholish to the cage, but Cholish circles away. Cholish delivers an outside leg kick. Tibau lands a huge counter left hand that hurts Cholish. Cholish goes for a takedown. Tibau applies a guillotine choke and pulls guard to tighten it down. Cholish is forced to tap out to the arm-in guillotine choke.
The official time of the submission was 2:34 of the second round.
Phil and David look at the lightweight co main event of the night for UFN 51, analyzing the matchup while pondering the marketing ideas for Gleison Tibau's future bakery. Lightweight Gleison Tibau vs read news >>
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Donna's Detroit
Sit On It Detroit's mission to ease bus waits taking off
Two Wayne State students put their ideas into action and set their sights high
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$109,9993 bedroom ranch....... too much to mention!Real Living Kee RealtyCarol Lukity586-634-3933$109,999.00 in St. Clair Shores with Lakeshore schools! 3 Bedroom ranch with partially finished basement with half bath, bedroom & bar. Updates including: Roof, pavers in rear, Vinyl Windows, Oak kitchen with hardwood floors, doorwall to deck, new carpet, privacy fenced yard, 2 1/2 car garage w/remote. Too much to mention! Call Carol at: 586-634-3933 to view.
$775,0004 Bedrooms • 5 Bathrooms • 1 Half Baths • 3,864 Sq. FeetReal Estate OneRobert Weltman248-408-5171A beautiful home built in 2000 on a DOUBLE LOT. Filled with character, boasting a large covered front porch, newer granite kitchen and stainless steel appliances. See all of the amenities...
$398,000Six Acres Of Sandy Shoreline Wooded SettingSTATEWIDE REAL ESTATEVICKI BENDER989-280-6026Executive Home on South Manistique Lake - Gated drive, 3 bedrooms and bath with 2 lower-level guests bedrooms and bath with sauna. Stone fireplace, wrap around decking, extra heated garage. State Wide Real Estate of Curtis Call Vicki 989-280-6026
Sit On It Detroit's mission to ease bus waits taking off
With three ideas and $50 cash, two Wayne State urban planning students started Sit On It Detroit. They would build bus benches for all the Detroit bus stops that lacked them, use wood reclaimed
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Terry de Castro
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MADISON (WKOW) -- Local television icon and former WKOW sports director, Marsh Shapiro, died Wednesday morning at the age of 73. He had been treated for brain cancer in recent years.
Shapiro was introduced to many Madison-area TV viewers as Marshall the Marshal on the popular children's television show by the same name.
The show aired on WKOW and Shapiro continued to work at the television station as a sportscaster long after Marshall the Marshal went off the air.
Shapiro is also known for founding The Nitty Gritty bar and restaurant, whose ownership remains in his family. A manager at the restaurant told WKOW Wednesday afternoon that the owners would not be ready to speak about the loss today, but were planning to post a statement on the Nitty Gritty's web site possibly as early as Friday evening.
Shapiro's facebook page is filled with warm thoughts from those who knew and worked with him.
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This year, I want to be more vulnerable.
USA. New York City. East 100th Street.
Bruce Davidson; 1966
USA. New York City. East 100th Street.
Bruce Davidson; 1966
Shoot the Freak @ Coney Island. Nothing has changed.
c. 1940
by Sid Grossman
c. 1940
by Sid Grossman
When I was a kid, the wooden tiles that made up the Coney Island boardwalk were pretty beat up. Unevenly spaced, loose, nails askew.
Walking underneath the boardwalk was always an (slightly terrifying) adventure. Who knew what unsavory things were happening beneath those slabs of wood? Looking up through the slits in the tiles, I was most afraid of the people above me and how they might trample me if the tiles gave way.
When I saw this photo by Garry Winogrand at SFMOMA, I immediately recognized the Coney Island boardwalk. I'm really missing New York these days. Can't wait to get back!
3D Printing Pen. Last year, MakerBot, probably one of the more "mainstream" 3D printing companies around, said they wanted to make 3D printing a household appliance as common as the toaster. We're gettin' there.
NYC East Side Access Project. For the past six years, the MTA's been working on connecting Long Island to Manhattan's East Side. These photos of the underground tunnels burrowing deep beneath Queens and Manhattan are stunning.
Lifehacker's Tips for Taxes. Filing taxes? This might be helpful. Here's a list of apps that'll help you keep your documents organized.
Inside Google Glass. I was surprised by how impressed I was with this account of Glass. The videos really illuminate just how amazing Glass can be. Also, just read that Warby Parker will be designing new frames for Glass. That's pretty big for the frames startup.
I came here thinking I'd spend a year or two here, and then I'd move to Hong Kong for awhile - but I'm not so sure anymore. I'm falling in love with this city more and more each day.
(via byebyebetty)


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Lakeville - Local Area Photos and Information
Local Area Photos | Local Business Directory | Local Real Estate | Local Employment Center
Lakeville is a populated place located in Holmes County at latitude 40.656 and longitude -82.127.
The elevation is 961 feet. Lakeville appears on the Loudonville U.S. Geological Survey Map. Holmes County is in the Eastern Time Zone (UTC -5 hours).
Holmes County: Cities & Towns | ZIP Codes | Schools | Features (airports, churches, hospitals, etc.)
BOUNDARY MAPS: | Township of Washington | Holmes County
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Data Source - USGS GNIS FID: 1064965
BOUNDARY MAPS: | Township of Washington | Holmes County
Nearby Cities, Towns & Census Designated Places
Lakeville, OH
(< 0.1 mile)
Lakeland Beach, OH (1.4 miles ENE)
Big Prairie, OH (1.9 miles ENE)
McZena, OH (2.7 miles N)
Miley Crossroads, OH (3.1 miles SE)
Nashville, OH
(4.3 miles S)
Centerville, OH (4.5 miles E)
Craigton, OH (5.1 miles NE)
Loudonville, OH (5.8 miles WSW)
Shreve, OH (5.8 miles ENE)
Nearby Neighborhoods, Subdivisions & Other Small Populated Places
Shady Pines Mobile Home Park, OH
(6.1 miles ENE)
Idlewood Cottage Area, OH (10.5 miles W)
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Melco, OH (12.5 miles WNW)
Treaton, OH (13.1 miles NNW)
Wooster Trailer Park, OH
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Yacht Point Cottage Area, OH (13.9 miles WNW)
Shel Mar Mobile Home Park, OH (14 miles NE)
South Peninsula Cottage Area, OH (14.3 miles WNW)
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Submitted: May 21, 2010
Michael McDaniel is the regional director of the Dallas Metroplex for Responsive Education Solutions, the largest charter school district in Texas. www.responsiveed.com
Travis Smith is the COO of Jo-Ann Stores Inc., and will become the retailer's president. Smith, who will keep his current responsibilities of overseeing Jo-Ann's marketing, merchandising, sourcing, inventory management, supply chain and store operations, will assume responsibility for information technology. Smith has been with the company since July 2006.
Jason Konesco has been named president of Harrison College, which was formerly known as the Indiana Business College. Konesco joined Harrison College in 1999. Most recently, he was Harrison's senior vice president of operations.
Mark Lambert (MBA)has joined Blurb, the creative publishing and marketing platform, as CFO. He will oversee all areas of financial management, drawing on more than 15 years of leadership experience in finance, strategic planning, operations and mergers and acquisitions.
James Lucot was honored in December with the Robert I. Goldman Award for Excellence in Holocaust Education.
"This award is presented annually to a teacher who demonstrates excellence and creativity in his teaching of the Holocaust," said Stanlee Stahl, executive vice president of The Jewish Foundation for the Righteous (J.F.R.). "He is the type of teacher you would want your kids to have."
"Every year the J.F.R. reunites a Holocaust victim with their rescuer. This year they reunited Bronislaw Firuta with Joseph Bonder, the Jewish teenager he and his family saved. The two had not seen each other since 1945. Words cannot even being to describe how amazing this was to experience," Lucot said.
Lucot was nominated for this prestigious international award by Dr. Edie Naveh, the director of the Holocaust Center of the United Jewish Federation of Pittsburgh.
Tim O'Neill has found new inspiration to record more lullaby piano music—the birth of his twins, Owen and Gabrielle. Tim and his brother Ryan ('97)—The O'Neill Brothers—sold more than 800,000 copies of their songs in the last three months of 2009 alone. Channeling their business savvy and musical talents, The O'Neill Brothers are working with large manufacturers to add a $5 bonus sticker for five theme-specific free songs onto retail products.
Listen to free samples of The O'Neill Brothers songs at www.pianobrothers.com
K.C. Mathews has been promoted to executive vice president and CIO of UMB Bank, the lead banking subsidiary of UMB Financial Corp. As CIO, Mathews is responsible for executing UMB Bank's investment strategy and overseeing the day-to-day management of the bank's investment activities.
Mathews is a Chartered Financial Analyst and a member of the CFA Institute. He is past president of both the Kansas City CFA Society and CFA Society of Oklahoma. He is on the board and executive committee for Junior Achievement, serves on the board for the University of Central Missouri's Harmon College of Business Administration, and serves on the faculty of the School of Banks.
Vince Pryor has been named senior vice president of finance/chief financial officer for Edward Hospital & Health Services. He previously was with Ingalls Health System.
has been promoted to senior vice president, strategic planning and performance management of Feeding America, the nation's largest hunger-relief organization. He previously served as vice president of planning. In his new role, Knott is responsible for the development of the organization's strategic plan. He works with the executive team and board of directors to establish and evaluate organizational outcomes and assess performance against goals. He also provides assistance to member food banks in the areas of strategic and operational planning and analysis.
Mary Kay Ladone has been appointed to serve as an officer of Baxter International Inc. Ladone, currently vice president of investor relations, has served in her current position since 2004. Previously, she held numerous positions within the company's finance, business development and supplier management functions. Ladone has been with Baxter since 1988.
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Poll: U.S.voters Prefer Local Government
August 25, 2011 by UPI - United Press International, Inc.
ASBURY PARK, N.J., Aug. 25 (UPI) — U.S. voters tend to have the most appreciation for the government closest to them, a poll released Thursday said.
The survey by Rasmussen Reports found 33 percent of those polled say local government does the best job and 23 percent picked the state government. Only 15 percent said the federal government was the most competent, and 29 percent were not sure.
The poll found half of respondents say the federal government has too much influence over the states. Another 26 percent said the balance is about right, 13 percent said the federal government should have more influence and another 13 percent were unsure.
Rasmussen surveyed 1,000 likely voters Aug. 21 and 22., The poll has a margin of error of 3 percentage points.


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It is not only Ohio going after parents illegally enrolling their kids in better school systems. Muscogee schools are also getting ready to go to court over the same issue.
The budget crisis and school overcrowding are feeding the increased fervor with which districts are chasing down illegally enrolled students. In the blog on the Ohio case, many posters defended the mother by noting that her father lived in the district where she illegally enrolled her children. They felt that since her father lived there and paid taxes there, Kelley Williams-Bolar deserved a break and her two kids should be able to go to the schools.
But how far do we extend that thinking? Should Bartow County kids be able to attend Cobb schools if their aunts and uncles live there? Should people who operate businesses in a town but live elsewhere be allowed to enroll their children in the schools?
The argument for Williams-Bolar is that her father lives in the district but doesn't now have children in the schools so her kids should count as his share. But if every owner of a house or condo without kids had that ability — to turn their "spot" over to a relative's child outside of the district — we would have far higher school tax bills and more crowded schools. If we allowed grandparents who have sent their own children through the local schools to then send their out-of-district grandchildren, we would have even more overcrowding.
Please keep in mind that the median annual property tax payment in Georgia in 2009 was $1,346, which is below the national average of $1,917. The average cost for educating a child in a Georgia public school is $8,779 per year. That school bill is paid in part by many homeowners who have no kids in the schools, the same way roads are paid for by people without cars and county tennis centers are paid for by non-tennis players.
Here is what is happening in Georgia:
On the heels of an Ohio mom getting jailed for 10 days for using her father's address to get her kids into a better school, the Muscogee County School District is also preparing to prosecute two cases of much the same. Spokesperson Valerie Fuller says there are several more cases under consideration since the district required parents to submit residency affidavits this school year.
Months since those records have been collected, the district is now sniffing out the cheaters—those out-of-county people who have been using someone else's address to send their children to Muscogee County schools. Falsification could also include in-county taxpaying parents who have tried to send their children to a school that is not in their zone.
"As our resources diminish, they become more and more precious to us," said Cathy Williams, chairwoman of the school board. "I don't think it's good parenting skills to raise your children in an environment where they're learning how to usurp the system or cheat or lie or steal."
Williams points out Muscogee County has choice programs where in-county residents can meet certain proficiencies to enroll a child in a particular school. Out-of-county people can attend Muscogee County schools; they just have to pay tuition.
"I think our district is one of the best, and I understand people clamoring to get in, but there's a right way to do it and there's a wrong way to do it," Williams said. "What I want to stop is the wrong way."
–From Maureen Downey, for the AJC Get Schooled blog
January 28th, 2011
9:42 am
Parents who lie on school forms must understand they are commiting a crime. And the reality that a school's resources are becoming more and more limited is harsh, but schools must act to protect the resources. The local community pays the taxes and expects the resources to be used for their students. Remember, the state is paying less and less.
January 28th, 2011
9:53 am
I'm beginning to think that it sounds like a decent plan. I'm at a GCPS school that gets a number of students from DeKalb (if all of the DeKalb plates waiting in our car rider line can be trusted). Of course, those are the kids who get in trouble, whose parents don't ever come to conferences, and who need all of the extra support. Of course, as soon as we try to call them on it, they get someone to fill out a residency affidavit, and no one questions it. But, do we want to waste valuable time and resources to prove that they really don't live here? Is the money that schools spend tracking down these people going to be less than the money they are spending to educate them? I guess that's the bigger question.
January 28th, 2011
10:11 am
APS requires current utility bills, rent receipts or property tax receipts in the parents' names in order to enroll students. There are a couple of extended stay hotels in the district that suddenly achieve 100% occupancy for a month or so around enrollment time, and students from those addresses are often found to actually live out of the district. We have also had two cases, to my knowledge, of out of district parents offering money to in district families to sign guardianship papers so that students could attend.
Since the average APS per-pupil spending is over $17,000 each year, it is indeed a savings to identify non-funded students and return them to their district of origin. It is hardest on the child, who has made friends and is settled by the time the identification is made.
January 28th, 2011
10:22 am
I am a proponent of school choice, but I understand the issue. Let's say that 100 kids go from Clayton to APS. If we are spending 17k on each student who is from another county, we have just spent over a million and a half dollars on other counties' kids.
Now QBE kinda messes up the "MY local property tax is being spent on someone else" because under QBE, it all gets reallocated anyway. So what's the solution?
Start by offewring public school choice in district and go from there.
January 28th, 2011
10:29 am
January 28th, 2011
10:41 am
What's best: Be vewwy vewwy quiet.
And who's to say that "daddy" even pays school tax any more. Many elderly in Georgia do not–don't know about OH.
January 28th, 2011
10:42 am
Ms. Downey, does Athens/Clarke county still offer modified choice?
January 28th, 2011
10:53 am
This frou-hah will all disappear when and if true school choice becomes state law. True choice will allow any child to attend anywhere his or her parents desire, be it a public or private school, with the money following the child. Will choice devastate "public education?" Absolutely not. Will it devastate the status quo. I certainly hope so.
What will be lost: Crappy schools will close OR CHANGE because otherwise no one will want to go there. Crappy teachers will leave the profession – or be ejected from it – because it will be OBVIOUS that no one wants to be in their classes. Crappy students will be few, because everyone will have the FREEDOM and the incentive to do better.
What will be gained: The best teachers will be celebrated, will become "hot commodities," will be courted and recruited and held up as examples, will teach other teachers how to be incredible teachers, and will aggregate at the best schools – AND the best schools WILL REPLICATE. There's not a finite number of great schools, great school leaders, and great teachers, There's just not enough great ones yet. Choice WILL drive quality, because it will create a MARKET for quality.
Our current schools are merely a market for average to substandard performance.
And which voices are resisting this change that is guaranteed to work (free markets ALWAYS work): Those who have everything to lose by losing their power and prestige, and who put their power and prestige above the needs of all students. Or, possibly, those who are deluded into believing sincerely that the system is working.
January 28th, 2011
11:06 am
@ CharterStarter — Charters if we are not careful, encourage a retreat back to segregational education systems. This is part of the challenge that many of those who want to lead us, or those so desperate for change, cannot or do not see.
As citizens it is our responsibility to be guardians of the future, to surrender to what only seems as the best course of action, instead of being its steward and guiding it is failure. Something we already have to much of.
The question is who is going to be the voice of reason in these tumultuous times and speak for the good of all the people?
January 28th, 2011
11:16 am
It's sad because most criticize the parents who don't care about their childrens education; then we lock up those who would do anything for a better education for their kids.
You just can't win in this world.
January 28th, 2011
11:24 am
School Choice is one of the dumbest ideas of all time. If you want better schools then MOVE. It is a free country and you can move if you want. These parents should be thrown in jail as stealing is stealing.
January 28th, 2011
11:26 am
If you idiots want to get rid of neighborhood schools then I hope you realize that the school buses are going away and Metro Atlanta traffic will double. Do you really think that our road system could use more cars on it? I doubt it.
January 28th, 2011
11:33 am
I think district jumping is more prevalent than we might think. I live 5 miles from the county line where the neighboring county has a much poorer performing school district and I see that county's car tags in the carline every single day. I can't really rember what we had to provide for proof of county residency but I wonder if it was/is enough.
BTW, I could have spent 25-50% less on a house if I had chosen to live in the neighboring county where you can buy a fantastic house for super cheap AND pay lower property taxes. Instead I chose to spend more on a not-so-great house in a better district to give my children a better chance of a great education.
January 28th, 2011
11:34 am
No, what's REALLY sad is that some people still think this woman did nothing wrong. The school system was billing her, and she just ignored it. It's not easy to understand the value of a dollar when the government already pays for your food and housing. That's all good, though, because it "boosts the economy". TRANSLATION: Hairdressers, manufacturers of gaudy clothing and malt liquor, and the recording industry would go out of business if some people had to actually pay for food and housing themselves. Oh wait…they've done figured out how to STEAL music without getting caught…sorry, recording industry.
The bright spot here is that she's now a felon, so there will always be someone available at McDonald's to take an order that SOMEWHAT speaks English.
January 28th, 2011
11:43 am
Courtney, we could all do away with the name calling.
School choice would create a competition where good schools get better and bad schools either change or close.
I also don't think we need school buses or school lunches now, but that's just me.
January 28th, 2011
11:45 am
Bruce, if by segregational you mean separate but equal. dream on. Charter school law, the state DOE, and the State BOE are all over that. Think again.
January 28th, 2011
11:47 am
About time. If you want a different school for your kids – MOVE!!!!!!
It's NOT the taxpayers role to pay for your kids that don't live in that district.
January 28th, 2011
11:48 am
I'm not defending people who lie on affidavits, either. I'm just saying I understand where they're coming from. Their opinions are real, and are based on reality, and that reality should be considered in matters of law and policy. If a school district had the courage to offer a public referendum on a question about school choice and vouchers, THAT would precisely define reality in a way that criminal prosecutions cannot. Any takers?
January 28th, 2011
12:00 pm
Public county schools are for the county residents. If you don't like your school selection, go to either a private school or MOVE to a better county/district. This is not a new concept, as people have been making these choices for years.
January 28th, 2011
12:01 pm
How is holding these parents "accountable" different than the issues with illegals? And don't tell me illegals pay taxes: most work cash-paying jobs, so they get dinged on sales tax, nothing more.
Sure, these parents should be prosecuted: it's not like the systems & DA's are laying in wait, they've been warned repeatedly and just disregard any scrutiny.
January 28th, 2011
12:05 pm
People who do this are wrong because they are breaking the law and there are other legal means to try to accomplish the same ends. Along that line, what is wrong about "money following the student", it just makes sense to me and that could be my personal bias showing. Think about it, your money follows you wherever you go. Whether you are going to Wal-Mart, Phipps Plaza or a convenience store, your money follows you. I realize that it is more complicated because it is the State's money provided by taxes, but it just seems like it makes logical sense.
January 28th, 2011
12:15 pm
The real solution is to fix your own community and your own school as opposed to leeching off another school system….
January 28th, 2011
12:17 pm
"That school bill is paid in part by many homeowners who have no kids in the schools, the same way roads are paid for by people without cars and county tennis centers are paid for by non-tennis players." Ah yes, time to drag out the old socialist argument of "shared benefit." Let's look at it. First, roads are paid for by every vehicle that passes over them in the form of registration, licesnses, and most importantly gasoline taxes. Using the utilitarian argument, there is absolutely nobody who does not benefit from roads nor anyone who does not pay directly through one of these mechanisms. Even the person who has everything delivered to their home is paying through the cost of the goods for the taxes paid on the fuel used to get it there. WE ALL BENEFIT AND PAY FOR ROADS.
As for county tennis courts, the fact that we are all forced to pay is just as appalling as everyone being forced to pay for the education of other people's kids. Private tennis facilities exist and people should use them. It should not be the county's job to steal from others to put of tennis courts for a few. Using such a horrible example of government abuse of power does nothing to support your argument.
Now let's look at how your pathetic argument stacks up against your comparison. If the property tax bill is $1,346 versus $8,779 for the cost per child, we have a difference of $7,433 for the first child and another $8,779 for every child thereafter. So a familily with two children gets $16,212 worth of FREE services courtesy of EVERYONE else every year for 12 years (at least). That's $194,544. $299,892 for 3 kids, $405,240 for 4 kids and so on.
So we have seen that nobody doesn't benefit from the roads and virtually nobody pays directly in the form of fuel taxes or imbedded cost of goods), nobody should be paying for tennis courts and other luxuries, and even if they did, I would hardly think that any tennis benefit would ever come close to adding up to the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Dollars that parents receive from everyone else for their kids education. Even the most expensive private tennis clubs don't charge that much.
Maureen, the government system is a failure. It is based on the immoral principle of theft. Is is based on the immoral economic system of socialism. Parents and students directly benefit from education but are unwilling to assume the true costs but would rather use the force of government to steal the money from the rest of society and justify their actions by saying that "everyone benefits" when this is clearly not the case. Where there no government run schools there would be a plethora of private alternatives, charity alternatives, a greater reliance on homeschooling and other options, and a direct responsiblity on the part of parents for their children's education and the true costs of bringing a child into this world. That kind of system would truly benefit all of society.
January 28th, 2011
12:21 pm
And to be clear, despite the fact that fuel taxes and such are a far better and more direct mechanism of properly paying for road construction, maintenance, and the like does not change the fact that privately owned and operated roads would be safer, better maintained, and more functional than those currently operated by the government monopoly.
January 28th, 2011
12:27 pm
If we required all Georgia schools to meet the same criteria we wouldn't need to have this conversation. I don't care if a child attends school in Chatham, Clayton, Dekalb, Douglas, Fulton, Paulding County or any of the other GA counties children should all get a quality education. If this is done parents won't have to resort to risking jail to assure that their children receieve the best education available. I think it is rather sad that people have to resort to this measure to educate their children. If a school district is failing to educate students then students should be allowed to place their kids in another school district.
I agree with Rob and instead of the education money going to the school districts it should follow the child. If this was the case I guarantee you that every school district would drastically improve the way they educate our children.
January 28th, 2011
12:27 pm
Illegal enrollment laws should be strictly enforced. Once you slack off, or start looking the other way in sympathy situations, then you sanction the behavior and the avalanche begins. Adults are like children in that they'll do whatever they think they can get away with. As someone already noted above, if you don't like the schools in your county then relocate somewhere else.
January 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
Also, just to clarify, anyone paying rent in a community is "paying taxes". Whether they are living 10 illegals to an 2-bedroom apartment, they are still not paying the full cost of educating their children any more than the american citizen family is paying for their kids while living in a 3 bedroom house. And as for income and other taxes, whether an illegal gets paid in cash or a poor family gets paid through an IRS approved mechanism the end result is likely the same. In fact, the poor family that doesn't get paid in case likely pays not only no income tax to help offset the additional costs of their kid's education but even gets additional "welfare" money in the form of the Earned Income Credit. At least the illegal who doesn't file isn't taking that money from the rest of us too. If you want accountability for everyone then you need to change the funding mechanism. Maybe if school, healthcare, education and the like weren't free, folks would think twice about coming to this country illegally. And maybe if education and the like weren't so heavily subsidized, teenage kids wouldn't be having children, others wouldn't be having 10 kids, etc. You get what you incentivize and I can't think of a better incentive than $200K plus worth of free education for having children.
January 28th, 2011
12:31 pm
Shoot, the Principals get a bonus based on the number of students in their building. They do not care where the kid comes from. Just give them some documentation of some sort to get your kid into the school. That way, they have more kids, bigger bonus, more slots to hire more teachers. It is a racket. Corruption at its worst and it is financed by the local community. You would think that the Gwinnett Board of Education would look into this situation. No way, then it is meddling with the schools.
January 28th, 2011
12:38 pm
@Maureen Downey
January 26th, 2011
11:09 pm
@Time for School Choice. As to whether I would turn somebody in, I probably would not, figuring the parents just wanted the best for their kids.
After reading all of the comments from both of your Blogs, do you still stand by your comment above?
January 28th, 2011
1:10 pm
Prosecute them. Period.
I have paid tens of thousands of dollars in school taxes. And I don't even have children. And I'm absolutely perfectly fine with paying school taxes for the families who live in my county/district. After all, it's for the common good for school children who live here to be educated.
That said, I don't pay school taxes so someone from another district or county can falsify residency and send their kids here and me foot the bill. Someone who does this is no different from someone who shoplifts or embezzles from their employer. Saying you're doing it for your child is a cop-out.
January 28th, 2011
1:18 pm
Not sure how much can be accurately determined by the county stickers on license plates in the drop-off line. To the best of my knowledge there's a much longer tradition of registering your car in a different county (usually one with lower tax rates than your own) than there is of crossing county lines for school purposes.
January 28th, 2011
1:24 pm
Are we going to prosecute illegal aliens too? I agree that students need to go to the school to which they are assigned. That's the law and there are ways that they can change schools legally. BUT, EVERY illegal alien is breaking the law. Shouldn't we be making them go to the schools to which they are assigned? I hear Guatemala has a great school system.
January 28th, 2011
1:39 pm
January 28th, 2011
1:52 pm
"then we lock up those who would do anything for a better education for their kids."
Oh I agree. Parents doing anything…to hell with the law just do any ole thing cuz its all for THE CHILDREN. Its takes a village and all that crap-ola.
Perhaps instead of "doing anything" they might try doing The Right Thing…No?
January 28th, 2011
1:53 pm
PS…Prosecute to the fullest extent!!
January 28th, 2011
2:01 pm
Dr. NO – You are not a pretender, and that's good
January 28th, 2011
3:08 pm
"It takes a village" until you try to correct someone else's child. Then, you're an interfering busybody.
There is rampant abuse of just about every government entitlement. Maybe some of the social entitlements (not the beneficiaries of social security and medicare– the senior citizens) should have some kind of stipulation attached to the entitlement.
For example, people who have been on generational welfare. Perhaps they need to earn that welfare check by volunteering at schools, cleaning up parks– repaying the welfare check by working so many hours. Perhaps that may provide some kind of incentive. Think about how much money is being doled out for some people who have no intention of finding work. Maybe teenageers wouldn't be so ready to have a baby if they knew there wouldn't be a welfare check waiting for them.
Free lunch– there is much deception with free and reduced lunch. I hear students openly admit that their parents lie to get free and reduced lunch. Only about 3% of applications get checked. There's a 97% chance you won't get caught? Why not lie on the form?
School taxes– it's local property taxes that fund the bulk of school districts. If you don't like your attendance zone, why not take the responsibility to do something about it? Why not round up other parents to get more involved in the school? Kids need positive role models. Why not mentor a child? Read to him/her? Turn off the tv and the video games!
Certainly, if parents don't like the school their children are attending, what are they doing at home to enhance their child's education? Are they going to the library? Reading books? Going to museums? Or are they sitting at home watching the vast wasteland of tv and playing video games until all hours of the night? Do they check to see if homework is being done? Do they remain in contact with their child's teachers?
Schools are a reflection of a community's values. If education is a community value, you generally see successful schools.
At my school, you can see the lack of self-discipline of the students, the disrespectful and unruly behavior of the students, and the general lack of care and concern towards their education. Where does this come from? Not the teachers or administrators. I have had parents tell me that their children have insomnia in 6th, 7th, and 8th grades. Really? These same children are up all night long, on Facebook, playing video games, watching tv, and roaming the neighborhood. Insomnia? No, indifference on the part of the parents.
January 28th, 2011
3:09 pm
I taught with a woman who was a visiting teacher from Scotland. Where she grew up, students went to any school they wanted, but when the school was full, those trying to enroll had to find somewhere else to go. That seemed reasonable to me.
If school choice were ever a reality, there would need to be safeguards against overcrowding. Having a similar system would ensure that we not have empty schools or overcrowded ones. What we would have is schools where parents cared enough to enroll their children early and schools where parents didn't care at all. I realize that there are people without cars, etc. But if they have no transportation, their kid can't go there anyway since, as a previous poster stated earlier, there could be no bus service in a world of choice, either.
January 28th, 2011
3:13 pm
Alot of you say sell your house to Change district. Well that is exactly what I have been trying to do, to get out of the Cobb County Schools that I am not pleased with. With the screwed up dysfunctional Cobb County Board of Education. But, with todays economy, you can not just sell your house over night. You can put it on the market, price it right, and hope that you will be able to change schools in August but that doesn't always work out. So what happens when your house finally sells 8 or 9 months latter, in mid year. You have high acheiving high school students that are involved in Varsity Sports.
Here is the senerio Cobb County is on a 4 Class you do a full year in one semester Schedule. The North Fulton High Acheiving High Schools that I moved to are on the standard 7 classes that last a full year. There is no way to transfer in from Cobb County in the AP, Honors and IB class level at this point of year. My Child all ready completed a Full year of Math, Foriegn Language, Chemestry, Business Law, but, just started Lit, History, etc.. So their is no choice but finish the year in Cobb. By the way I already paid Cobb County the Full year of Taxes which were about 4 times the average cited here. I also own a portion of my ex's house which is still in the district.
I have also told my kids to keep there mouths shut. But I don't think Cobb wants to loose their high test scores either.
January 28th, 2011
4:28 pm
Mixed Up Schedules…amazing your kids are so brilliant since you don't seem to have a grasp of basic spelling and grammar. Must be their Cobb County education.
January 28th, 2011
5:11 pm
Perhaps it is a hypocrisy and a quibble to decide whether the coercive expropriation of other people's earnings is permissible or impermissible, depending on where the thief lives. When you let some benefit out of the pockets of unwilling others, you steal. Governments think they are being righteous when they say "Thieves living in the county may steal from innocent county residents, but thieves living elsewhere may not steal from them—but must steal from the innocent residents of their own counties, instead."
January 28th, 2011
5:16 pm
Everyone is assuming that parents are enrolling their children in out of district schools in order to receive a better education. This is not true. Maybe some are doing this, but many are doing it for convenience or social reasons. As a Board member, we hear excuses of every kind. My system, and every school within, is top ranked, but the majority of reasons have to do with convenience for the parents or social interactions for the students.
January 28th, 2011
5:28 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Presliey Vondee, Christine Nora, katie, Krista Brown, Maureen Downey and others. Maureen Downey said: Muscogee plans to prosecute parents for illegal enrollment http://bit.ly/easdwP [...]
January 28th, 2011
5:55 pm
@Seen It, as you note, even those without children in school benefit if the district has great schools, because their property is seen as more desirable and commands higher prices if they decide to sell.
January 28th, 2011
6:09 pm
@CharterStarter: "free markets ALWAYS work"
So giving teachers lower pay, less autonomy, more paperwork, and less support on discipline matters is the way to get the "best and brightest" to become teachers, right?
January 28th, 2011
6:21 pm
@ wow, this is a blog, not a grammar paper !
January 28th, 2011
6:35 pm
These parents should talk to Rahm Emanuel or run for Mayor of Chicago! Residency rules don't apply to all and certainly are not fair or just.Then again….lying is lying and fraud is fraud!
January 28th, 2011
8:08 pm
I'm still trying to get an answer to my question: If too many people want to go to Fabulous Public School, how does the administration decide who to accept and who to reject? And where do the others go? Or does the school just let in everyone who wants to attend, even if it results in trailers galore and massive overcrowding? And who pays for the trailers & other facilities that will be needed?
January 28th, 2011
9:03 pm
""It takes a village" until you try to correct someone else's child. Then, you're an interfering busybody." Amen, but I do it anyway. If your kids come to my house they will, while here, be reared by me according to my rules. And yet they all keep coming, so it must not be that bad to be told to get good grades, respect yourself and your elders and get the hair out of your eyes.
"Free lunch– * * *There's a 97% chance you won't get caught? Why not lie on the form?" For me it is simple, I don't lie. It is disgusting to me that other people do. Then again, I am the person who tells the cashier that she accidentally failed to charge me for something….and then I pay up.
I am keenly aware that I am setting an example for my child and I darn well intend to do my best. I set a high bar and my son knows that I will accept nothing less. He attends a good school because I work hard to live here, but no matter what the school environment is I expect him to meet my criteria for success.


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