text:
'Stay with us,' new LDS website urges gay Mormons
rdean92 Los Angeles, CAOct. 25, 2016 12:41 p.m.
My big take away is how "out of touch" they are with reality, with real people. If you think about it, they are only surrounded by other members of the Church who believe and feel the same way they do (only the higher ups surround them in a bubble). They do not interact with non-members, inactive members and especially gay people. Gay people are people, who happen to be born gay. God did not make a "mistake". This is not their "burden" that they must overcome. it is NOT like alcoholism. In fact, there is no gay agenda. I get tired of people believing that, it is blatantly false. The only thing gay people want is to be treated like everyone else. It would serve the 'brethren" to sit with gay people, listen to what they have to say, feel their "spirits". Gay people are normal, hardworking, children of God who deserve respect and Christ like love and not being demonized because of who they are, how they were born. If this is Christ's Church, I am pretty certain that is what he would do, make some gay friends. Brethren?
JDrapper West Valley, UTDec. 13, 2012 12:35 p.m.
Off course they want LBGT's to stay with the church, they need to keep collecting their tithing so they can keep financing Luxurious constructions like the City Creek while destroying The Olympic Legacy Plaza.
RFLASH Salt Lake City, UTDec. 12, 2012 2:16 p.m.
Can I say that relationships are more than sex. That is just part of it. Everyone who who is in a relationship should know that. I have friends who went back to the Church. One is married. I know that for different reasons, that is what they had to do. They pay a heavy price! There are many ways to deal with it. I was raised in the Church and being honest meant that I shouldn't deceive somebody. There was no way for me to hide and even now, it would not be a good thing for me to do what they want. No, I can honestly say that it would kill me! Being gay is no accident! I have been happy with my partner. It has always felt right! The sadness has come from the loss I feel from losing friends and from having people view me as something less than I am. Before people knew, they openly talked about spiritual things. After, I could see the very moment that they tune me out. What should we expect? Leave room to bend! I don't know if I will ever feel like I once did about the Church.
The Bike Guy Sag Harbor, NYDec. 12, 2012 1:52 p.m.
Warm and fuzzy websites will not repair the damage in the relationship between Mormons and gay and lesbian Americans. Ending discrimination will.
The Mormons could start by ending their blackmail of the Boy Scouts of America. The Mormons have held the Scouts hostage to their theological beliefs by insisting on the expulsion of gay men and gay teens. At a time of epidemic suicides of gay teens, this borders on criminal.
We are a two-dad family, both former Scouts, and would love to have our son join the BSA. But thanks to Mormon intransigence liberals flee and corporate funding dries up. Soon we will rename it the Boy Scouts of Mormons, Southern Baptists, and the Catholic Hierarchy.
I quote Lord Baden Powell, the gay Englishman who founded the Boy Scouts:
"Buddha has said: 'There is only one way of driving out Hate in the world and that is by bringing in Love.' Scouting's aim is to produce healthy, happy, helpful citizens, of both sexes, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self interest, personal, political, sectarian and national, and to substitute for it a broader spirit of self-sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity."
non believer PARK CITY, UTDec. 12, 2012 10:52 a.m.
Not sure why someone would want to stay in a religion that will not allow them to marry the person they love or grant them access to the highest levels of their heaven? Seems like the church will always consider gays and lesbians as sub-par and not equal to other members.
BikeGuy87 FARMINGTON, UTDec. 12, 2012 9:01 a.m.
Being a person who has dealt with sexual sin myself, I can say that this is much needed. More for members of the church than anything. I let a sexual addiction get completely out of hand largely due to a fear of what people would think of me if I came out. When I finally did, I realized that there are A LOT of people who just do not understand what it is like to have everything inside you telling you one thing and then to be expected to do another.
I'm not gay but I have tendencies to act out in other sexual activities outside the boundaries of the commandments of God. I have had these tendencies ever since I can remember encountering sexual feelings and the tendencies are not wrong. Acting on them is.
I know that I cannot fully understand what same sex attraction would be like but I feel that my situation is about as close as one can get. The experiences I have encountered with this have only strengthened my conviction that we are here to bear one another's burdens. I sincerely hope this website will help move church members in this direction.
Ranch Here, UTDec. 12, 2012 7:54 a.m.
I respect your opinions. Thank you for sharing.
Not angry, all I see though is more self-serving hoopla from "the church".
All we're asking is to be able to "pick one".
Now there's a real "loving" response to Ophelia. Wow.
Certain genes express at different times during development. Not all identical twins will both be gay, but they will both be gay more frequently than fraternal twins, an indicator that there is a genetic component.
If the church is true, why would God make some people gay and then ask them to deny themselves for their ENTIRE lives? An explanation would certainly be welcome.
Your churches recognition is not required, but thanks anyway.
Ranch Here, UTDec. 12, 2012 7:53 a.m.
Counter Intelligence says:
"... a much bigger problem are those who simply cannot tolerate non-compliance to gay dogma (Ranchhand)..."
You clearly don't understand what I've been saying all this time. It doesn't matter to me at all whether or not someone is gay and chooses to live a celibate life. What matters is that you've made that choice and it applies TO YOU. You seem to think it is okay for you, since you made that choice, to deny other gays the choice to marry because, well, celibacy is working for you - why not every gay, and well, "god says so".
Be celibate and alone, that's okay with me. Just stop trying to force other gays to live the life you've chosen for yourself. I'm not fighting to make you live "the gay lifestyle". I'm fighting to prevent you from making other gays live the life you've chosen for yourself and to make sure that gays know they're perfect just the way they are.
@Lane Myer;
Excellent comments. Thank you.
Perhaps we don't want "fellowship with the (judgemental) saints".
Utes Fan Salt Lake City, UTDec. 11, 2012 9:54 p.m.
@One Human Family
"The truth is that the Mormon church has been abusing gay people for a very long time. You can pretty it up all your want, but it is still abuse (as an example look up electro shock therapy and BYU)."
BYU was not the inventor of shock therapy as a treatment for homosexuality, and there were many institutions that used it. BYU ceased use of shock therapy well before the American Psychological Association stopped recommending the practice.
@One Human Family
"Gay people are still being forced to choose between love and religion.
To any gay people reading this, run as fast and as far away from the church as you can. The grass is truly greener on the other side. ... Don't confuse Mormonism with God. They are not the same."
I know several gay people - some married, some not, that are active, happy members of the LDS Church. I fully trust they know what they are doing and are happy in their choice to live their lives as Latter-Day Saints. Maybe not all will choose this. But these people I know are the first to defend the church and their choice to remain in it.
xert Santa Monica, CADec. 11, 2012 8:06 p.m.
Instead of the "love the sinner--hate the sin" mentality of many Mormon Church members (which is certainly the tone of this website, which I have researched btw) I prefer to adopt the "love the sinner and hate the sin inside of "myself." With that much to concentrate on, I'm sure I could learn to keep my nose out of other peoples lives and bedrooms.
Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MODec. 10, 2012 5:01 p.m.
To Mint Julip: That is what this site is all about to allow the closet individual that has same-sex attraction know that there is away that is better than trying to be someone he/she is not. It gives them hope to understand that what the world says is not always the way it is. This site will help those that have this attraction understand that even being honest with themselves and seeing those who have the attraction and how they have dealt with it. The Lord is not going to change his laws to accomodate man. Most religions try to bring the Lord to the people where The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints tries to bring individuals to the Lord. What you are suggesting is the world's way not the Lord's way.
As to your comments to Killpack. If this was to happen and they wanted baptism, they would be required to give up the lifestyle otherwise no baptism. If you look at the world's perspective then it is breaking up a family now. If you look at the eternal perspective, the family is already destroyed.
John C. C. Payson, UTDec. 10, 2012 2:36 p.m.
It is true that some with SSA cannot resist acting on that attraction--on their own. The same is true for those who fall prey to other forms of destructive behavior. Many cannot, on their own power, overcome their attraction to pornography, their hot tempers, or their practice of mentally abusing their family
But I also know that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, we who have such behavioral problems can be blessed by a power greater than our own. It is happening in my life and I know it can happen for anyone else who wants it. For details, look up the Addiction Recovery Program of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has been adapted from Alcoholics Anonymous.
Ether 12:27 27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.
Miracles happen.
Mint Julip KAYSVILLE, UTDec. 10, 2012 2:33 p.m.
What about the non-LDS couple who legally marries in their state and then adopts a couple kids. After 10 years of building a relationship and raising their children, they are met by Mormon Missionaries. They read the BOM and come to believe it is true. They want to be baptized into the church. How do you advise they proceed? Divorce? Split up the family? What?
I am troubled that you seem to think living a lie isn't a problem, but living honestly in a committed relationship is. How can a closeted homosexual be honest in all their dealings when they aren't even being honest with themselves?
killpack Sandy, UTDec. 10, 2012 12:20 p.m.
@ESAABG is my FAM
This is from The Family: A Proclamation to the World, which is considered an official statement of the LDS Church: "We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife." I'm pretty sure that anyone known to be in violation of this statement has put his or her membership in jeopardy, regardless of what a man-made judicial body somewhere has determined to be legal. In response to your second question regarding heterosexual couples not married in the temple but civilly married, I would say this. They are NOT enjoying what LDS Church membership has to offer. IMO, the whole point of LDS membership is to marry in the temple. I'm not married, but if I didn't plan to someday marry in the temple, I would remain single. Getting baptized, going to church every Sunday, paying tithing, staying out of bars, etc., etc., just to be a good LDS isn't very appealing to me, let alone civil marriage with children. To me, the LDS Church is little else without temple marriage, relatively speaking.
Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MODec. 10, 2012 12:21 p.m.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints DOES NOT recognize any of the same-sex marriages performed across the world or the United States. The marriages do not meet the definition of marriage as defined by the laws of our Heavenly Father. This means that you can come to our meetings and all else. You would be welcomed but in the end the result is that you would need to meet the law of chasity that all members meet. Which is that unless you are lawfully wedded, as man and woman, you must obey the the law. If you doubt that then further research on the new website would explain that.
As someone has already stated, 'nothing has really changed." As in another thread it isn't for those who are already living the gay lifestyle and want to live the gay lifestyle. It is for those who want to live something else other than this lifestyle. Who understand there is more to life than accepting what the world has stated, "you have no choice, just be who you are and be happy." This site gives hope where the world says there is no hope.
mattrick78 Cedar City, UTDec. 10, 2012 12:10 p.m.
Third try screen name: Openly gay or in the closet, as long as you are living the law of chastity I am sure you can be baptized.
ESAABG is my FAM SAINT ANTHONY, IDDec. 9, 2012 4:29 p.m.
I have a question, that I would like respectful answers to: if a gay couple is legally married (for instance, in Washington this past weekend, many couples were married), can they enjoy full membership in the Church? Heterosexual couples that are civilly married, but not in the temple, can be full members right?
atl134 Salt Lake City, UTDec. 9, 2012 12:04 p.m.
"Gays can not procreate with each other. It requires a female."
First off, lesbians exist. Secondly, adoption and in-vitro fertilization, and surrogate parenting exist (we even had a state rep who was a surrogate mother for a same-sex couple). Thirdly, gay people are gay, they aren't going to have opposite gender sex (unless they're bisexual rather than gay) so stopping gay marriage isn't going to get you more kids out of it.
@One Human Family
"This website changes absolutely nothing"
It seems more willing to acknowledge sexual orientation as a trait one is born with and is a bit more assertive about trying to not shun the individual, but it changes nothing with regards to what they expect from members who are attracted to people of the same-sex.
nonceleb Salt Lake City, UTDec. 9, 2012 10:32 a.m.
The same old rhetoric that says nothing substantial in hundreds of words. It sounds like a desperate plea to keep gay members on their rolls. The traditional family is the only avenue for ultimate exaltation in the church and it has virtually nothing to offer to single heterosexuals like me or to homosexuals. Real compassion and acceptance is not expecting someone to remain celebate all of their life or opposing a legal committment by a loving same-sex couple.
One Human Family Philadelphia, PADec. 9, 2012 7:35 a.m.
The title of this article should say "Stay with us, we won't hit you again *wink*."
The truth is that the Mormon church has been abusing gay people for a very long time. You can pretty it up all your want, but it is still abuse (as an example look up electro shock therapy and BYU). This website changes absolutely nothing, so I wish people would stop gushing over it. Nothing has changed.
Gay people are still being forced to choose between love and religion. Love always wins in the end and the church will continue to lose amazing, remarkable people because of it. Your loss, not ours.
To any gay people reading this, run as fast and as far away from the church as you can. The grass is truly greener on the other side. There are many people, groups, religions that will love and accept you for who you are. Don't confuse Mormonism with God. They are not the same.
QuestionJustice SALT LAKE CITY, UTDec. 9, 2012 1:58 a.m.
This is fantastic? Truly this is a move in the right direction, yet I find it odd that God and his church are always trailing the society that they live in. Doesn't God give his leaders on earth any forsight? This should have happened years ago.
The Scientist Provo, UTDec. 9, 2012 12:28 a.m.
Despite this web site (and arguably because of it), the LDS Church continues to be on the wrong side of this debate, and this fact will continue to tarnish the Church's public image.
OCoug Ogden, UTDec. 8, 2012 10:20 p.m.
I hope that this can help all of us take steps to reevaluate how we treat each other.
killpack Sandy, UTDec. 8, 2012 8:59 p.m.
"What you don't have the right to do is to push those beliefs into law to the detriment of your fellow human beings."
Define law and define detriment. First of all, I can't change natural laws. I suppose I could change man-made laws to a degree, but why would I want to do that? I am vehemently opposed to our corrupt, man-made government. I wish I could abolish it, not expand its existing, overreaching powers. Some might consider that detrimental, as in those who would like to see gay marriage endorsed by the government. It isn't the government's place to endorse or oppose marriage. In fact, I will oppose any effort of the government to do so, either way. I don't think they should exist in the first place, so I will never endorse any of their 'laws' that to me have no moral authority. So don't worry, I won't push my beliefs into 'law,' as in corrupt, man-made statutes. God's laws are what I answer to. They already exist, so I won't do any pushing to have them changed either.
kargirl Sacramento, CADec. 8, 2012 6:11 p.m.
budhenson, you inspired me, so I got the whole thing:
We believe all that God has revealed,
all that He does now reveal, and we
believe that He will yet reveal many
great and important things pertaining
to the Kingdom of God.
I'm not God...or even Jesus. Having said that, I can state only one other thing for certain--while it is possible the doctrine could modify and/or change through revelation, I definitely can't tell you if, when, or how much. And, not being God or even Jesus, and knowing that my Heavenly Father, in the preexistence gave free agency to all His children to choose which plan to follow here, and being sure His heart broke, as any parent's would, when many chose not to choose His plan, I don't see where I have the right to tell anyone what they should do. I still can't get to bed early enough to be alert on Sunday morning. Show me an LDS gay person with that as the worst problem in the world, and I'll eat my ol' drill, cord and all.
JonathanPDX Portland, OregonDec. 8, 2012 6:09 p.m.
It's said that we'll never be given a burden greater than we can bear. Everyone will face challenges in their lives, some greater than others, & all will require faith in & guidance from our Heavenly Father to overcome.
The hardest thing for many people to understand is that feelings are just as real for those who experience same-sex attraction (SSA) as for those who experience opposite-sex attraction. Some think it is simply a choice made at some point in their lives, but it's not...no more than a choice was made by anyone attracted to those of the opposite gender.
However, for ALL who believe in the Church, the challenge is not that the feelings aren't real, it's whether the Church is real & true. If it is, then those who experience (SSA) are faced with a more difficult road to travel by recognizing & understanding but not acting upon those feelings.
So it's important to know that regardless of the things our mortal bodies tell us, we must maintain & strengthen our faith in our Heavenly Father & do his will that he will help us in our greatest hour of need.
One Human Family Philadelphia, PADec. 8, 2012 3:17 p.m.
You have the right to believe whatever you want and you have the right to share those beliefs. What you don't have the right to do is to push those beliefs into law to the detriment of your fellow human beings.
There is a difference between heterosexual people that are not married because they CAN get married to a person they have feelings for (assuming they are of age and available of course). Homosexual people do not have that option no matter what the situation. All gay people want is equality.
Flashback Kearns, UTDec. 8, 2012 1:53 p.m.
I know a set of Identical (mirror image) twins. One was a homosexual, the other wasn't. Due to that, for me, the jury is still out on whether or not it is learned, chosen, or born with it. Two people with identical DNA, no way one was born with it and one wasn't.
That fact aside, that doesn't stop us hetero folks from practicing the Golden Rule, no not the one that says "He who has the gold makes the rules"(although that is true in the world of Soros), we should treat people as they want to be treated. If it is a morality issue, that is what the Bishops are for. Otherwise, leave them alone. Be good examples of Christ like love.
Based on my previous rantings, can you believe I just said that?
killpack Sandy, UTDec. 8, 2012 12:39 p.m.
I think engaging in homosexual activity is wrong. I was born that way. And no one has the right to change the way I feel about that. And no one ever will. As Pink Floyd once said, 'we don't need no thought control.' I have the right, as a human being, to think or believe WHATEVER it is I want to think or believe. In this country, I also have the right to share my beliefs with others. And as long as I live, I will continue to share my beliefs with others. And no one is going to stop me, no authoritarian judiciary and their goon squads, no supposed religious teacher, and none of my gay family members. Amen.
One Human Family Philadelphia, PADec. 8, 2012 8:09 a.m.
I just want to thank you for your beautiful comments about your gay son. I also spent years trying to pray and fast away the gay as well as years of reparative therapy and finally realized that God loves me just the way I am. It is very encouraging that your son has such a supportive and wonderful mother!
I also found this new website to be more discouraging than encouraging. I am saddened that after 20 years since I left the church, gay kids are still being taught that they are not ok just the way they are. The options of living a life alone or marrying someone of the opposite sex are just not viable or realistic options for most. Can you imagine if heterosexual men or women were told to marry someone of the same sex? How many would stay in the church?
Anyway, thanks again for your beautiful comments and support! Your son is very lucky to have you!
bandersen Saint George, UTDec. 8, 2012 7:17 a.m.
Baccus. My reasoning is quitte simple. Italy will be desolate late this century based on current population trends. I believe in family. Gays can not procreate with each other. It requires a female. I don't believe in the trend line that promotes a no growth policy, which includes gay marraige. So, I defend the family and marraige between a man and a women because I want to take an active interest in the future of our children, something that isn't apparent with gay marraige advocates, regardless of the means they want to promote that doesn't include the most plausible method for growth.
OnlytheCross Bakersfield, CADec. 8, 2012 1:06 a.m.
Ophelia, don't be bitter. God's Word says we're all sinners. Either accept the blood of Jesus as your sacrifice for sin, or find another religion. You can accept of reject His offer. But you cannot redefine His message and Word millenia later.
Give Jesus a chance. He died for the opportinity. Read Ephesians 4:17-32. He indwells His Children of Light and brings them peace and joy as He conforms them to His image. It's a choice; don't gamble with your Eternity based on what others tell you. Go to the original source and ask God. You can find peace and life through Christ.
A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UTDec. 7, 2012 9:34 p.m.
God love for us is very special. It's more valuable than any social institution or political view. We can contend and show rudeness or we can show childlike love and kindness to each other. Our differences in views can never justify negating the existence of that choice. Satan wants us to believe that we should stand up, shout our beliefs, and continue shouting no matter what the cost. His plan is to stir contention and fighting among us and sometimes it even feels as though he has won. The truth is that God's plan will not fail and Satan will eventually be powerless.
Some will contend and fight, but none of it is of God. We can live rightly and do the work that will secure us an eternal inheritance. We either do the work God has promised His blessings in return for- or we work against God. That doesn't mean we all have to agree all the time. We're all learning line upon line, etc. But contending and fighting about it? That certainly doesn't profit any of us in the end.
This site will help many. The Lord's peaceful work continues!
skeptic Phoenix, AZDec. 7, 2012 7:45 p.m.
It would be a good thing if people could learn to live and let live and to mind their own business and leave their neigbor in peace.
Baccus0902 Leesburg, VADec. 7, 2012 6:54 p.m.
@ wrz
you wrote:
"Besides which... humans have a higher calling, part of which is to overcome/temper human cravings/urges. Don't ask me why. Ask some church authority".
What about "The glory of God is intelligence"? Don't you have the power to reason on your own?
you wrote:
"They don't. They subdue their natural urges and instead pick one, ask for her hand in marriage, then have kids all in accordance with societal norms and church teachings."
What is the difference of what you describe with what LGBT people are asking?
They are asking for the right to share their lives with the person they love and being recognized as a society as full citizens. They want their children to have two parents and that their family is protected under the law.
They are asking for the same rights that any other contributing member of society is entitled to receive. Nothing more nothing less.
Mike in Cedar City Cedar City, UtahDec. 7, 2012 5:17 p.m.
The church has taken a great deal of critisim in recent years on this and same sex marriage. Like it or not this is a signal that the church is softening its stand and moderating its view. Not that it is changing its moral stance, but it seems clear that it is reevaluating that in some way.
Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MODec. 7, 2012 4:47 p.m.
Again if you go to the website you will see that nothing has changed except how we are to perceive the individual. The doctrine remains the same. Homosexual activity is a grievious sin and one that is forgiveable. The website reaffirms that marriage is between man and woman, not of the same sex. It reaffirms that we are to be sensitive and loving of those who have same-sex attraction. It reaffirms that there are many challenges of same-sex attraction but it also states that if one acts on the attraction they are going against the law of our Heavenly Father. Those who are saying this new website and such is a change in approach is really more of a change in perspective and action of members. The site affirms that it isn't medical nor is it a illness but an attraction. Yet, it reaffirms that when one acts on this attraction they are doing a grievious sin. It is no different than one who commits adultry or has sexual relations outside of the Church's definition of marriage.
LDS Liberal Farmington, UTDec. 7, 2012 4:29 p.m.
Bountiful, UT
I think this whole thing is being more directed toward the so-called "good" Latter-Day Saints - who berate, put-down, ostersize, and shun "different" members
into being more tolerent, compassionate, understanding, and accepting -- like you and I and many 'other' LDS have become.
Jesus Christ would never treat other this way - and we truely ARE his disciples, neither should any of us!
Besides - I think we as Latter-Day Saints have a much bigger and more serious issue with PORNOGRAPHY and pharaceutical addictions than this one.
He who is without sin, cast that 1st stone....
speaking of stone throwing -
People who live in glass houses...
budhenson midland, MIDec. 7, 2012 4:29 p.m.
The LDS church is both revolutionary and evolutionary. It isn't static and will respond to both external forces as well as revelation (if you believe in such).
"...and we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things..." isn't an idle Article of Faith.
One of the leading apostles said in a meeting I attended that, "There are more things that are relative than we generally imagine." One could tell some major issues were being discussed by the leaders. One wonders if the church membership in general may be the roadblock that keeps things from progressing much more quickly. Didn't Brigham Young once say that we had to learn the "A, B, C's" before we could progress to the next letters?
Lane Myer Salt Lake City, UTDec. 7, 2012 4:27 p.m.
"I know some heterosexual guys who'd love to make it with a room full of females. They don't. They subdue their natural urges and instead pick one, ask for her hand in marriage, then have kids all in accordance with societal norms and church teachings. Why can't SSA's do the same and be happy and content?"
Now, if you had said that these men who want every woman refuse to marry anyone and will never partner with someone for the rest of their lives, I would agree that they are then doing the same thing as gays.
If you want gays to marry and have children, you are asking a lot from their spouses who will never feel like they are wanted, cherished and desired. Do you have a few children that you would like to have marry a gay person?
Until we realize that being gay is so very different than anything we have experienced, we cannot understand what they go though. Please, let's have a little empathy for them.
Tyler D Meridian, IDDec. 7, 2012 4:10 p.m.
This seems like a pretty big step forward for a church that has "one man and one woman" as a core doctrine. Let's give credit where credit is due.
wrz Ogden, UTDec. 7, 2012 4:09 p.m.
"There are homosexual animals, of virtually every species, on land, in air, under the sea."
They're not homo... they're likely bi at best.
Besides which... humans have a higher calling, part of which is to overcome/temper human cravings/urges. Don't ask me why. Ask some church authority.
"Those who have SSA are born with it. It's not a question, it's a fact."
It's not a scientific fact. The jury is still out on the question. Besides, how would a researcher interview a bird or a whale on the subject?
"Are there examples of people with SSA who go on to live in a heterosexual relationship? Yes. Does this mean they no longer have SSA? No it does not."
I know some heterosexual guys who'd love to make it with a room full of females. They don't. They subdue their natural urges and instead pick one, ask for her hand in marriage, then have kids all in accordance with societal norms and church teachings. Why can't SSA's do the same and be happy and content?
LittleDrummerMan ,Dec. 7, 2012 3:50 p.m.
Over There, CA
People are NOT born that way. To say that would be saying that God took their agency away, something that He will never do.
bayhuntr Forestville, CADec. 7, 2012 3:48 p.m.
Alfred, Left and Right handedness is wired to diffident degrees, depending on the combination of genetics you receive from you parents. Left handed people have their speech center on the left side of the brain, right handed people have it on the right. The right side of your body is controlled by the left side of the brain and vice versa. Fully left handed people who are forced as children to use their right hand, quite often develop speech impediments. My left handed mother was forced in Catholic school to use her right hand, she stuttered well into her 50's. As we learn more about human biology, we find out there are reasons for a lot of things that we use to blame on evil spirits or madness or sinning. Left handed people were meant to be left handed and homosexuals were meant to love the same sex. Going against what nature intended usually causes other problems.
Scientificamerican web site has a great articular on handedness.
Ophelia Bountiful, UTDec. 7, 2012 3:47 p.m.
As the LDS mother of a gay son -- who is in a committed relationship with a wonderful man -- I find all of this more discouraging than encouraging. The change seems to be "love the sinners," instead of "you are justified in despising the sinners." It still makes me sad...and mad...that my awesome, loving son is considered a sinner.
After years of praying and fasting away the gay, sending my son to reparative therapy for two years at the behest of priesthood leaders -- and then realizing the therapy is psychological malpractice -- plus hearing ward, stake, and general ecclesiastic leaders berate LGBT individuals, it's hard for me to see this as anything more than beautifully sugar-coated prejudice. I'm sorry this sounds so bitter. I guess it's because I am.
kargirl Sacramento, CADec. 7, 2012 3:38 p.m.
Jeff, I simply asked the rhetorical question as a means to suggest that choosing the gay lifestyle, which is the one under discussion, would not be likely to be something someone might do, for reasons stated. I don't know what your politics are, but I don't mind disagreeing on an adult level...I'm used to being a minority! I prefer to do it with folks who want to share viewpoints, though, as in, sharing both directions. (Virtual)handshakes included.
Lane Myer Salt Lake City, UTDec. 7, 2012 3:36 p.m.
Alfred, Please read this: "August 1, 2007 National Geographic News
The gene most closely linked to left-handedness has been found, experts announced this week.
The gene, called LRRTM1, is also associated with a slight increase in developing certain mental illnesses such as schizophrenia. "
You actually are born that way.
kargirl Sacramento, CADec. 7, 2012 3:13 p.m.
Alfred--I feel like sayin, Just like a man. But I won't. I'm a left-handed Mom, 3 left-handed kids out of 4. I put their utensils and cups in the center, to let them all choose, since I had been the only leftie out of five children and two rightie parents. The only one who became right-handed was the youngest, and she was also the only one who had trouble deciding. Now, tell me, why are most of my children left-handed? They were born that way! I would not blame me--oh, their dad was right-handed, too. Yes, there are lefties on both sides of the family. Of course, it is possible to do things with the non-dominant hand, we do that all the time. Oh, btw, I learned from the surgeon when I had a brain angiogram that lefties are not always right-brain-dominant. Something else to put in your knowledge bank. Now next time you think someone wasn't "born that way" check it out first, please.
Baccus0902 Leesburg, VADec. 7, 2012 3:12 p.m.
@ Andersen
you wrote;
"ATL, NH, Vt, Me are very well just like Denmark. Low crime, but hardly one to emulate, unless, of course, you like the idea of a people eventually becoming extinct".
This is an honest question. How do you reach that conclusion? If LGBT are allowed the same rights that you (I assume) have as heterosexual. How do you make the connection to extinction?
Heterosexuals will stop having sex? Are you insinuating that heterosexuals secretly want to be gay but don't want to break the law or the mores of our society? There is something missing in your thinking process about this issue.
If homosexuality is not your cup of tea just don't drink from that cup.
Jeff Temple City, CADec. 7, 2012 3:10 p.m.
@ dwaynerichards: Are you writing in euphemism when you equate ""intimacy or companionship" with sex, or do you really believe that the Church denies intimacy and companionship to everyone who isn't heterosexual and married?
I believe that it's possible to have both intimacy and companionship without sexuality, and you are simply wrong that the Church denies that to anyone.
If by "gay" you mean someone who is sexually attracted exclusively to someone of the same sex, then the Church's position is simply that a "gay" person--the same as a heterosexual person--should not have sexual relations outside marriage. You may disagree on whether or not the Church should oppose same-gender marriage, but there is nothing in Church doctrine or practice to suggest that non-sexual intimacy or companionship is denied to anyone.
@ kargirl: A rhetorical question is useful, but it doesn't sustain an argument. There may be a number of reasons why someone chooses a lifestyle that "puts them on the outs."
I'm not sure what you mean by the "political and geographical." I live in California, so we share both politics and geography. I hope that gives me permission to disagree with you.
Baccus0902 Leesburg, VADec. 7, 2012 3:00 p.m.
I'm bringing something I read in a different source: The Bible is a book about God is not a book about Science. Therfore, you will find well intentioned men with no knowledge of Science stating a lot of errors in that field. The Bible is not a book about sex. Therefore, you cannot pretend that the Bible teach you about sex.
Romans 1:24 - 27 Perhaps the most insidious passage in the Bible about homosexuality.
As I said before, the Bible is a book about God. Here Paul is talking about people who abandoned God to worship idols (goddesses Diana, Aphrodite and other fertility gods)some of their rituals were to castrate themselves, or have a variety of sexual manifestations.
Heterosexual men and women abandoned their "natural" desires to worship idols.
Look at the verses and you will find words such as abandoned, exchanged.
LGBT people have not abandoned God. They have not exchanged heterosexuality for homosexuality. They were never heterosexuals in the first place to abandon it or exchange it.
LGBT people are normal people. They love God and God loves them. God loves them so much that He has made many, many gays.It's a beautiful world
kargirl Sacramento, CADec. 7, 2012 2:15 p.m.
To those who think SSA is a choice--why would someone purposely choose something that would put them on the outs with so many parts of society, and withdraw them from participation in so much of its benefits? Really, would you, my well-meaning friends? I doubt it, not too likely. And please, please, some of you--and you know who you are--take it out of the political and geographical. You don't appreciate it if others bash you for things not related to where you live or your political stance, and neither do the rest of us. Thank you for your consideration.
rickdoctor Chandler, AZDec. 7, 2012 2:12 p.m.
The actions of sexual immorality have always been sin, whether heterosexual or homosexual. A couple who live together, cohabitating with sexual conduct, cannot be baptized -- matters not whether they are heterosexual or homosexual. More than 51% of households are not married in America, basically committing sexual sin. We seem to have gotten pretty used to it by now. Over 70% of high school seniors have been sexually active. We seem to be very tolerant of all kinds of sexual immorality. Even Church discipline has become more tolerant of sexual sin, except for a certain few categories. We should be more courageous in denouncing this behavior -- last I checked, sexual sin was #3 on the list of most abominable sins to the Lord, and very few even venture to #2 and #1. Being 'gay' is not biologically, physiologically, psychologically 'natural' - we just ain't wired or constructed that way. But it is powerfully 'real' to each one who feels that attraction. Feelings beget behavior begets feelings. We need to do a lot of research, without judgment. Love is the key to all relationships in this human existence.
Wyominguy Buffalo, WYDec. 7, 2012 1:51 p.m.
Personally Im proud of the Church leaders making the effort to improve understanding among the membership. I do not see this as a political move reflecting our changing society, rather I believe its a Christ like move to understanding and acceptance. Im convinced our Church leaders were inspired to open this dialog.
Alfred Ogden, UTDec. 7, 2012 1:20 p.m.
@Ernest T. Bass:
"It's not a choice. Just like people are born left handed..."
I grew up writing left-handed and trained myself later in life to do it right-handed. Not an easy task but doable. Much of life is not easy but doable.
"...it's not understood why a small minority are born left handed, they didn't choose it, being left hand dominant just feels right..."
Because the mom didn't pay attention to the child's left/right hand activities in the formative years. Could be related to the placement of eating utensils at meal times or perhaps even to breastfeeding on one side or the other.
"...they are born that way."
No proof of that.
"Treat them with the respect they deserve."
I M LDS 2 Provo, UTDec. 7, 2012 1:15 p.m.
I thought for sure I remembered a General Authority say that faithful gays will wake up on resurrection morning with "normal attraction" for the opposite sex.
Or was I imagining that?
Anyone remember Hafen's remarks on this subject?
Miss Piggie Ogden, UTDec. 7, 2012 12:54 p.m.
"I think that's what God is saying: stay with me."
What God aughta be saying is 'what causes it,' and 'how to fix it.'
This is critical due to church philosophy re life after death... that the best of which is only available to the married.
Spark44 MIDVALE, UTDec. 7, 2012 12:54 p.m.
If you would welcome LGBT people in your sacrament meeting, please join my Facebook event. You don't actually have to do anything. Joining just shows that you support their attendance at church. Look for the EVENT--Sit With Me Sunday.
Henry Drummond San Jose, CADec. 7, 2012 12:37 p.m.
I'm not LDS but I have had a lot of Mormon kids in my classes including Gays who are have great difficulty with their situation. I'm glad to see the Church reaching out in a constructive way. It will save lives. Count on it.
VAggie Bristow, United StatesDec. 7, 2012 12:35 p.m.
I support same sex marriage, but I wish more people who agreed with my view were more tolerant. The mormon church is trying to help it's members be more tolerant, and somehow people are angry about it? It's counter productive to change, if we want change, then we need to re-brand as showing people that those who are gays and lesbians are actual people who happen to be attracted to something different. Trying to be an angry radical activist will only hurt the cause. The anger over this seems similar to how this summer the debate was brought down to chicken vs. the Muppets.
procuradorfiscal Tooele, UTDec. 7, 2012 12:23 p.m.
Re: ". . . one day their marriages will be performed in the temple."
"Their" marriages have been performed in temples since there were temples.
Husbands to wives, and wives to husbands. And the vast majority are very happy and productive marriages, because "they" live the life God wants them to live.
"They" are us. Good people with temptations to sin -- like all of us -- but who choose to live elevated, rather than debased lives.
But if you're betting same-sex marriages will someday be solemnized in the Lord's house, I'll take as much of that action as you'll give.
And, lest anyone chastise me for gambling -- a wager that Church-sponsored temple marriage will always be between members of opposite sexes is a sure thing. There's not the slightest risk involved.
UtahDemocrat Salt Lake City, UTDec. 7, 2012 12:21 p.m.
Looking at some of the comments about the "radical gays," it appears that some fear we are far scarier than an angry straight man.
As for what spiritual abuse is, spiritual abuse is the maltreatment of a person in the name of a god, deity, faith, cult-religion, or church.
Regarding your comment on modern day prophets offering guidance, this website is more a product of modern day media than revelation. Believers and nonbelievers alike agree that there's no new doctrine in this webpage. When the heavens open up and give some new revelation to the church on the matter, I'll encourage those with questions to listen to what your modern day prophets have to say.
Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MODec. 7, 2012 12:19 p.m.
From the website itself: "The Church's approach to this issue stands apart from society in many ways. And that's alright. Reasonable people can and do differ. From a public relations perspective it would be easier for the Church to simply accept homosexual behavior. That we cannot do, for God's law is not ours to change. There is no change in the Church's position of what is morally right. But what is changing — and what needs to change — is to help Church members respond sensitively and thoughtfully when they encounter same-sex attraction in their own families, among other Church members, or elsewhere."
Hopefully, this clears up some of the so called misunderstanding. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not changing doctrine nor is it making it acceptable to do acts the Lord's finds immoral. Just as heterolsexuals must obey the law of chasity, so do those who have same-sex attraction. Nothing has changed in that regards.
bandersen Saint George, UTDec. 7, 2012 12:13 p.m.
ATL, NH, Vt, Me are very well just like Denmark. Low crime, but hardly one to emulate, unless, of course, you like the idea of a people eventually becoming extinct.
bandersen Saint George, UTDec. 7, 2012 12:05 p.m.
Perhaps an understanding of the pain caring family members endure on behalf of someone who has rejected the Lord's proclamtion on marraige and gender would bring some peace to those who have rejected it.
germanygator Apo, AEDec. 7, 2012 11:54 a.m.
I'll never be able to understand how -->
Belching Cow Sandy, UTDec. 7, 2012 11:50 a.m.
"But if I ever see one of you spiritually abusing a young person who is struggling to figure out how he or she fits into Gods plan, you will learn first hand what an angry gay man looks like."
Umm.. do tell, what do they look like? I would think they look the same as an angry straight man.
I'm not sure what you mean by spiritually abusing but any young person who is struggling to figure out how he or she fits into Gods plan can find out by listening to modern day prophets.
skeptic Phoenix, AZDec. 7, 2012 11:44 a.m.
RE: Jeff
Thank you for your review, I see where we may differ. My syllogism is more based on deductive reasoning while perhaps in contrast with your syllogism inductive reasoning you may be justifying from your point of view of what you want to see. It is common in religious rationalizations. I hope you always imagine good thoughts as they help make good deeds.
orem_man_am_i orem, UTDec. 7, 2012 11:40 a.m.
I believe that this website is a good thing. It is a needed discussion and demonstrates one reason why modern day prophets are necessary - to help God's children with contemporary issues. It has been helpful to me in understanding those who are dealing with this issue. However, like many have commented - from a doctrinal perspective there is really nothing new here. As members of God's church we should treat all of our "brother and sisters" with kindness and understanding.
Having said all that MAKE NO MISTAKE - the LDS Church is not "softening" it's stance on homosexuality and it never will. God does not change. The act of homosexuality is and always will be contrary to God's will. This weakness is no different than any other weakness. Men (and women) are given weakness to grow from, and like all other weakness can be overcome. "Men are that they might have joy" - if you follow God's commandments you will be happy.
Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, UtDec. 7, 2012 11:17 a.m.
To "LDS Liberal" I would accept a gay person in those rolls that you list. However, you should know a gay single man will not be bishop, nor will any unmarried man.
I know LDS members that are pushing the limits of apostacy, but I still accept them.
You are the one who seems to be having a hard time accepting me, and the fact that the church has not changed its stance on gays for 20 years possibly 40 years.
Why are you now throwing race into argument? Could it be that so far you look hateful and bitter and are attacking me because you resent the fact that I present a kinder gentler truth than the harsh bigoted lies you live with?
bayhuntr Forestville, CADec. 7, 2012 11:17 a.m.
If all churches demanded these values from those that choose to be within the faith and didn't require those outside to live by them, this wouldn't be an issue, at all. I lived in SLC for six years and found the Mormon people to be wonderful, many, at least in SLC to be live and let live and that comes from the perspective of an atheist. For those people who choose to be a part of Mormonism, this web site is a good thing. I can't imagine a life of celibacy, the companionship that comes with romantic love and planing an old age with that person, but if that works for them, fine.
One day, just like the black issue in the 70's, they will deal with gays and one day their marriages will be performed in the temple. If you just grasped your chest in horror, someone like you grasped their chest 70 years ago when they heard blacks could be married in the temple. It will be the moral thing to do.
SmoothWater Heber City, UTDec. 7, 2012 10:58 a.m.
So thinking about being immoral isn't a sin? Only if I act on it? Good to know.
Jeff Temple City, CADec. 7, 2012 10:57 a.m.
@ skeptic: I don't accept your syllogism (Religion is politics and politics is money and power so the Mormon church will make changes). First, I don't accept the premise that "religion is politics." If you qualified it: "religion can be political," then I would agree, but that destroys your conclusion. Your second premise, "politics is money" problematic for the same reason. Your conclusion, based on incorrect premises, is invalid.
Your efforts to make such a syllogism betray a bias against the Church that overwhelms your ability to reason properly.
Does the Church make changes? Of course. If those changes are motivated by money, there would be more direct evidence than one could find for most of the Church's changes in practice. An argument could be made for the discontinuance of plural marriage, but certainly not for expansion of the priesthood, elimination of some budget requirements, creation of the LDS welfare system, issuance of the new editions of the scriptures, suspension of the law of consecration, and others.
Further, if you look at the subject a little more carefully, you will see that there is almost always a prophetic precedent for any "changes.
Craig Clark Boulder, CODec. 7, 2012 10:27 a.m.
"....there is no such thing as principle, power, wisdom, knowledge, life, position, or anything that can be imagined, that remains stationary-they must increase or decrease."
- Brigham Young
Eternal progression is a religious tenet unique to Mormonism. While truth is unchanging, that doesn't mean that one's individual UNDERSTANDING of truth is perfect. Indeed, the very concept of eternal progression assumes that there is much we have yet to learn.
I, for example, don't understand what causes sexual orientations that appear aberrant to the norm the world accepts. Maybe someday science will bring a more definitive answer to these issues that are troubling to many. But I do believe that Christ would not treat gays as pariahs, social outcasts, or as inferiors.
LDS Liberal Farmington, UTDec. 7, 2012 10:19 a.m.
USS Enterprise, UT
20 years ago the church said homosexual relationships were wrong, and they still are considered wrong today. They said to love those with SSA issues and help them feel welcomed, and they are still saying that today. The message is still the same, just the method of delivery has changed.
8:59 a.m. Dec. 7, 2012
I knew people who left the LDS Church back in 1978 when the Prophet changed policy toward "blacks".
It's been nearly 35 years since then, and I know "Saints" who are STILL members who are uncomfortable with "them".
I have a question for you RedShirt.
Would you accept a Gay member as your home teacher?
Your Quorum President?
Your Bishop?
How about a Temple worker, or standing in a prayer circle?
I'm COMPLETELY fine with it.
I have Gay members in my family.
It's part of how I have formed my "Liberal" opinion.
Try being away of how someone else feels for a change.
It's called compassion.
Bledding hearts tend to be that way.
skeptic Phoenix, AZDec. 7, 2012 10:16 a.m.
Religion is politics and politics is money and power so the Mormon church will make changes favorable to changing times the same as they have done time after time when it was deemed past doctrine made no sense to modern times. Yesterday's church is not today's church and tomorrow's church will be much different than today's. So be patient and wait and eventually the church will come to common sense. In the meantime be loving and charitable to your fellow man and wish for the best and struggle to do good and defeat evil.
bayhuntr Forestville, CADec. 7, 2012 10:15 a.m.
There is a lot of misinformation running around on this thread, we can only hope the Church is going to be accurate and get some of it cleared up. For one thing, to the gentleman who claims there is ZERO evidence that children are born with their orientation already set (kind of like we are born to grow teeth and body hair one day, those aren't choices, right?), you are misinformed. Twin studies have proven there is a genetic predisposition to being gay. Of course that isn't proof, but it would be called EVIDENCE. Then there is the evidence that nearly all gays, millions and millions of them, claim it wasn't a choice, if fact they fought it, but to no avail. Then there is the evidence that those that are claiming it's a choice are either bisexual or they didn't have a choice, right?
Midvaliean MIDVALE, UTDec. 7, 2012 10:05 a.m.
Everyone sins. Why is this sin worse than others? What is your sin? None? do tell...
Twin Lights Louisville, KYDec. 7, 2012 9:42 a.m.
Understood. That is you. So this website is not really aimed at you and nor were my comments. But there ARE those that struggle, true? And for them, this can make a difference. My comments were simply in support of them and our reaching out to them.
Peace. I meant no disrespect.
procuradorfiscal Tooele, UTDec. 7, 2012 9:20 a.m.
Re: "The Church's stance has been "changing" over the last 10 years, and I know you believe God and his church never change."
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to make up your own facts.
Fact is, I can attest -- from personal experience in various positions of Church leadership -- that the Church's position has not changed, at least in the last 42 years.
In times before that, there probably was no specific position or pronouncement on homosexuality, apart from those on sin, in general, since it wasn't really an issue back then. People's inherent sense of modesty had not yet been overcome by the "sexual revolution," and real people just didn't identify themselves with, or even talk about their sex lives.
But we do know that going back to the Savior's time, His mission was to retrieve and bless the lives of sinners, saving them from sin, not in sin.
This most recent announcement differs in no way from that.
RedShirt USS Enterprise, UTDec. 7, 2012 8:59 a.m.
To "LDS Liberal" 20 years ago I was in a branch presidency, and had access to the Handbook of Instructions given to branch, ward, and stake leaders. In there it was quite clear that Gay people were to be welcomed into the church and were to follow the same standards as any other member. The Church's position has not changed, only their way of communicating it has.
20 years ago the church said homosexual relationships were wrong, and they still are considered wrong today. They said to love those with SSA issues and help them feel welcomed, and they are still saying that today. The message is still the same, just the method of delivery has changed.
killpack Sandy, UTDec. 7, 2012 8:58 a.m.
@Jeff in NC
The message doesn't work for you. You say it's a 'bad message.' Yeah, well that's just like your opinion man.
JWB Kaysville, UTDec. 7, 2012 8:54 a.m.
Where love is, there God is also. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is love and that is what His Father gave us when Jesus Christ came on earth to teach us and even die for us.
He gave us His only begotten Son, that whoso believeth in him should not perish. That is found in going to Church and being involved in important safety links to get us back to Heavenly Father.
The Apostles and Prophets live in our day to help us learn how to do that. This is a message of love they want to share with all people. There is not a family in the Church that is not impacted by people of all types and philosophies.
Christ told us to love everyone and that may be hard but I have learned in these situations that love breaks down barriers, slowly but surely from personal experiences. It is the same for all of God's commandments that we should live and follow.
I do know we need principles to live by and not become as some ancient peoples and want to be like other nations and be popular in a world that is not godly.
UtahDemocrat Salt Lake City, UTDec. 7, 2012 8:43 a.m.
I grew up faithful LDS. Were it not for my same sex attraction, I'm confident I would still be an active member. Ironically, it was my belief in LDS doctrine about the importance of having a family that ultimately led me to leave the church. I've had plenty of experience with LDS who struggle to figure out how to deal with me. They want to simultaneously communicate both their belief that I am sinning and that I am a child of God worthy of his love. Well brothers and sisters, I'm good with God. That struggle you feel is not about how God wants you to communicate with me. It's about God trying to communicate with you. How you respond to that internal dilemma is your cross to bear. But if I ever see one of you spiritually abusing a young person who is struggling to figure out how he or she fits into Gods plan, you will learn first hand what an angry gay man looks like.
Craig Clark Boulder, CODec. 7, 2012 8:36 a.m.
"....This message doesn't work for me. Let's face it, gays and the mormon church are two different shapes...."
This is less about changing people than it is about acceptance of others whom you have differences with.
Albemar West Jordan, UTDec. 7, 2012 8:12 a.m.
I hope this helps some people who are still LDS and gay.
However, most formerly LDS gay members will never want anything to do with the LDS church again. Once they are free, there is no reason to ever want to ever go back.
The only thing they want from the LDS church is freedom from its influence over their lives. If the LDS Church doesn't believe in allowing every citizen to get married, they shouldn't perform them in their churches and temples. However, they shouldn't use their influence to deny another human being their civil rights to obtain a civil marriage license.
Best of luck with the website and I hope it helps people, but the primary motivator is another attempt at repairing the damage done to the LDS Church's brand after the vitriolic Amendment 8 campaign. It will be decades before the damage from that will be repaired, if ever.
Jeff in NC CASTLE HAYNE, NCDec. 7, 2012 7:35 a.m.
I think this is an insincere attempt for the church to "modernize" itself. What can a loving gay couple who has adopted two beautiful children take away from this? The website is full of the message that family is SOOO important. But in order for this gay couple to "stay with us (i.e., the church)" they would have to totally blow up their family and send their children to orphanages? Maybe one of the parents gets to keep the kids and the other parent can come to visit on weekends...but he has to sleep on the couch. This message doesn't work for me. Let's face it, gays and the mormon church are two different shapes. Can't fit a square peg into a round hole unless you mutilate the square peg and make it fit. Bad message.
TA1 Alexandria, VADec. 7, 2012 7:24 a.m.
Small step - important one and a good one - but still a long way to go.
RanchHand Huntsville, UTDec. 7, 2012 7:10 a.m.
I'm sure you married someone you found sexually repulsive , right?
Actually, humans ARE animals.
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Synapsida
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Family: Hominidae
Tribe: Hominini
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens
FYI. I do not "struggle mightily" with my gayness. I struggle mightily with the bigotry that makes someone else tell me I need to "change", God made me as I am and I've no need to change myself to meet someone elses expectations.
Thirdtryscreenname says:
"...at the end of the day they MUST either change or abstain."
Wrong! At the end of the day, YOU must stop the bigotry, that is where the "change" needs to occur.
Born that Way Layton, UTDec. 7, 2012 6:47 a.m.
Celibacy isn't the end of the world. Some make it sound like a death sentence.
Might be hard, especially for those who are sexually active, but chastity is one of God's expectations on his saints. To be a better person, mastering that part of oneself is paramount.
The world makes it sound like not having sex will kill you. It's the same lie the boyfriend tells his girlfriend to get her to give in to be unchaste.
Homosexual activists are trying to convince those that have any inclination in their direction that if they don't have sex with them, they will be unhappy forever.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that while sex is a blessed gift when shared between a married/committed man and woman, it is NOT the only source of happiness.
That expectation of chastity weighs equally upon both man and woman no matter their inclinations.
We reach out to people looking for a deeper-more real joy. Redemption.
It is not hopeless. The moment a person abandons that all-or-nothing thinking, is when joy thrives. To those without faith this seems hard, but those of faith rejoice.
The Dixie Kid Saint George, UTDec. 7, 2012 6:33 a.m.
A lot of you are missing the point. There are many out there who feel ostracized from the church because of the way they are or feel (regardless of its chosen or innate). This is a message about love and about not condemning the individual.
Really??? Kearns, UTDec. 7, 2012 6:28 a.m.
You said: I know a few people who are not married, and they likely will never be married. They have desires, but are also counseled not to act on them. How is it any different?
The difference is that the straight single members of the LDS church are at least given a little bit of hope that they can marry. They aren't judged when they date someone. They have a support group within the church. I don't see that for the homosexual members of the church.
Mark321 Las Vegas, NVDec. 7, 2012 12:58 a.m.
@non believer
"So it is ok to have the desires, but as soon as you act on them, you are out?"
No, you are not out. Many times members of the church choose to go "out" because they feel the church won't accept them, which is just not true. There are people in the church who slip up (or act) and make mistakes and commit sins, but the atonement of Christ can help them feel the peace of forgiveness through sincere repentance. We all have sinned so each of us needs the atonement to be cleansed from sin and to overcome it. Satan would have someone believe that there is no way back. When you "act" upon sin, you are out only if you choose to go out. The church is asking those individuals to stay.
aPefectsixty Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 11:56 p.m.
I don't struggle with same-sex attraction as much as I struggle with being brought up to conditionally "love" myself. We were a perfect (bishop's) family taught to earn our worth with achievement and/or keeping up appearances. But, of all my many siblings, I may be the lucky one. At least the Church is now saying "Love one another" in direct relation to LGBT brothers and sisters. When will they help some of my brothers who broke down striving to be perfect presiding Church leaders, world-class career men, and dutiful husbands and fathers? Have we really learned the gospel if our thoughts and feelings have to be balanced by medication?
Truthseeker SLO, CADec. 6, 2012 10:43 p.m.
"The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals DO NOT CHOOSE to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God's children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters."
I applaud this small progress in the stance of LDS church's official position. The Prop 8 campaign was a low point for the church and left many scars even for those of us who are not gay. Personally, it won't feel right until our gay monogamous friends can worship side-by-side with us and partake of the sacrament.
Tafaz Phoenix, AZDec. 6, 2012 10:12 p.m.
They had to because do many are committing suicide and being tormented because "they struggle with same gender attraction" I think it is interesting that the stance remains the same but they now have a location for discussion. Do they understand that this is opening up comments similar to the statement that we love others even if they are not the same as Mormons. This continued judging that is typical of Mormon culture now has an authorized location for mis-information and ignorance. The stereo typing continues and is seeming to be endorsed by the church with this site. It is not a place for strength support love or positive community for either side of the issue. It is a way to make a larger connection to an audience that is more family oriented better set in life and a way of saying we offer support but in all reality I see a place where they are saying LGBTQ is your bolder and Christ will help you push it out of the way. I say "Christ" if real would be saying come around that boulder be loved and love as you are.
Third try screen name Mapleton, UTDec. 6, 2012 10:07 p.m.
@VA Saint
I suppose that is what puzzles me. Yes, we need to help them with the struggle, but at the end of the day they must either change or abstain. If they are unable/unwilling to do so, they cannot enjoy fellowship with the saints.
The problem with reconciliation seems to be that the militant ones are insisting that we take them just the way they are. Doctrinally that position in incompatible. They must ultimately abandon the homosexual lifestyle.
Someone who struggles with same sex attraction is no different than any of us struggling with our sins. It's done privately and quietly. No Bishop has ever told me to go ahead and sin. If I fail, he helps me try again.
But if I rebel and insist on living the sinful life, I'm on my own. And if I spread my rebellion around the congregation, I'm subject to some serious sanctions. Even if I openly talk about my sins, the Bishop will tell me to stop.
Would someone with an SSA problem be treated any differently?
Twin Lights Louisville, KYDec. 6, 2012 9:05 p.m.
I just hope that this can reach out to some of our members who struggle so mightily. May God bless them to know they are loved. May God bless the rest of us to love them a bit more. May God bless us all that rancor and ill will do not poison this well that could give some of our Father in Heaven's children a bit of relief.
Ronald Uharriet SWun City, Ca.Dec. 6, 2012 8:56 p.m.
Third attempt to post.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Love thy neighbor as thy self.
Love ye one another.
Let he without sin cast the first stone.
The Gospel of Tollerance.
The Gospel of love and acceptance.
Hetrosexuals are not tacked on to the commands above. I believe it means to include all people.
We tend to pick and choose those commandments that we want to follow and try to prove that those commandments
that we do not want to follow are off set by seemingly contradictory commandments in other scriptures.
It seems to me, that we should follow the dictates of our own conscience and allow others to do the same without passing judgement. Be a friend.
Ronald Uharriet SWun City, Ca.Dec. 6, 2012 8:25 p.m.
I have read all the comments. I see a relief from frustration in some of the post while I also see a a new much higher stress level for others.
In my opinion,
if a member of the Church can feel that, in spiite of the fact that about 10% of humans, world wide, and within the USA,
are born with Homosexual tendancies, they just can not accept this as acceptable behavior, this is okay, as long as they do not try to pass judgment against those that feel compassion for those that our different.
Those of us that rejoyce with the Church's stand at this time, can find happiness that we are now openly sensative to the needs and desires of all people regardless of their sexual preference, as long as we do not condem others within our flock that are not yet ready, and perhaps never will be ready, for this big step of acceptance.
dwaynerichards Provo, UTDec. 6, 2012 8:21 p.m.
"There will always be something to accuse and attack for them."
It seems like you are turning this around so that those who the church has attacked for years are now the ones somehow attacking the church because they disagree with its position. It is nice your church leaders are now calling for tolerance, compassion and respect for others but Christ did that in the Bible so its hardly something new. This site is really an appeal to live the gospel as taught in the Bible. The issue most gays and those who understand this issue have with the church isn't intolerance or discrimination of narrow minded members of the church instead it's their position on homosexuality in general. Claiming acting on homosexual feelings is a sin is to doom homosexuals to a life of celibacy and loneliness. Something they never ask heterosexual members who may always have hope of married life if they find someone and it actively helps them achieve it. Its nice they moved away from counseling members who are gay to marry the opposite sex but they replace it with counseling to remain celibate or change something they can't
LDS Liberal Farmington, UTDec. 6, 2012 7:54 p.m.
Score one for progession!
Utah Republican Mormons are going to flipping out over this.
I can hardly wait to watch!
USS Enterprise, UT
To "Craig Clark" that is what the Prophets of God have said. That is not my idea.
I am not judging, just relaying information that you apparently didn't have.
1:22 p.m. Dec. 6, 2012
Yes you are judging,
I'm ccurious to see how you'll react to this RedShirt - it runs diametrically opposed to everything you post and believe.
The Church's stance has been "changing" over the last 10 years,
and I know you believe God and his church never change.
I follow the Prophets and Apostles.
too bad ET Benson isn't here to witness this.
JFFR Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 7:44 p.m.
@RedShirt and patriot
This post is really late but if you are looking for biological support, why don't you try looking at a lecture from Bill Bradshaw given at BYU entitled, "Biological Origin of Homosexuality"
It is not saying that all homosexuals are "born that way" there are definitely some people that will experiment or choose the lifestyle, but there are many that are born that way. Please listen to the lecture. It is very good.
VA Saint Chester, VADec. 6, 2012 7:14 p.m.
@Third Try Screen Name - Read the Proclamation of the Family and you will have your questions answered. The Church is just asking for members to have more empathy and understanding, but it doesn't change the Church's viewpoint on traditional, eternal marriage.
segye portland, ORDec. 6, 2012 7:09 p.m.
Patriot- you comments are so ridiculous.
This is like saying- There is one group who suppresses their urges to fit the mormon norm,VS those who choose to LIVE THIER LIVES and not hide who they are to fit the norm.
You postulate that those who are "moral" will stay with the church and not become those "militant gays: who act on their feelings...
This is hatred, and completely intolerant. You are aware that much of nature is homosexual, right? That the only reason you call it "immoral" is because a supernatural, unproven deity has told you so. Or better yet, books written thousands of years ago, in a different, intolerant time, tell you to. This is ridiculous. I hope you also follow this law:
People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God
~Leviticus 21:17-18
No? Ridiculous you say? So is the repression of homosexual tendencies or the inference that they are immoral if they act on them.
Baccus0902 Leesburg, VADec. 6, 2012 6:38 p.m.
With all due respect, I don't see anything new in this website. Still proclaiming the idea of changing something that doesn't need to be changed.
If you are heterosexual good for you. If you are homosexual good for you.
Even though I consider this nothing new from the leaders of the church, I have always found LDS leaders tobe respectful, loving and genuinely caring. I don't see this site as bringing more LGBT people to the church. However, I think is wonderful to see that the church is taking this step to teach its own members to be more sensisitive with human differences. Particularly with a subject that has divided so many LDS families.
"8.We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; ...." I think Christianity still base their aversion to homosexuality in incorrect translations of the Bible. Unfortunately, this forum doesn't allow a more clear explanation, but a more detailed study of the NT and the historical background of its time would and will clarify our errors in this matter.
BYU Track Star Los Angeles, CADec. 6, 2012 6:12 p.m.
The Elephant in the room wants to know. If a GLT couple who is legally and lawfully married in their state, are they welcome to worship in an LDS Chapel? If this question were being asked in Canada where (gay marriage) it is the law of the land would this be an issue still?
Bebyebe UUU, UTDec. 6, 2012 5:37 p.m.
'Stay with us' and be mocked and abused forever. The church needs you. You don't need the church.
Gramajane OAKLEY, IDDec. 6, 2012 5:33 p.m.
Attraction does not demand action.
Just as if one is attracted to another persons spouse,
The honorable thing is to avoid contact and get on with
actions that God endorses, in my view.
Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 5:20 p.m.
I was introduced into homosexuality at 11. When reintroduced in college I fell into deep depression. After surviving a suicide attempt; I found a (reparative) therapist who was able to put many of my feelings into perspective. He pointed out that it is perfectly normal for adolescents to want to be with their own gender and that my feelings had been sexualized, etc.
I did not choose to be gay and I will never be "cured"; but I have felt too much movement (not reversal) on the Kinsey scale to say that I am born that way. I can choose to better understand my feelings and reject extremism. For example; the current effort to ban reparative therapy because it "harms" gays is like banning water because some people drown. Perhaps those introduced to homosexuality through abuse could claim to be harmed by pro-gay therapy and ban it too. I advocate more information. While it is tedious to deal with people who view me as morally depraved, a much bigger problem are those who simply cannot tolerate non-compliance to gay dogma (Ranchhand) or who think they are tolerant merely because they hate (advocate banning reparative therapy) for fashionable reasons (Tolstoy).
atl134 Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 5:02 p.m.
"so then you agree with me. Heterosexual people must also control their urges the same as SSA people."
I disagree that it's the same since heterosexual people have an out they can use where they can act on those urges, SSA people do not. There's a difference between celibacy-til-marriage and celibacy-forever. I imagine straight members would find the latter to be much more difficult to accept than the former.
"I remember some recent news stories about LDS SSA people that are married and have children."
We call those people bisexuals.
"but when one speaks of morality alt134 they usually mean the biblical moral code of chastity or the law of chastity"
The notion of morality is not owned by any particular religion.
"define your moral compass according to the secular godless world then I guess just about anything goes."
NH, VT, and ME have the three lowest crime rates and the three highest rates of atheism. Now, if you look at all 50 states there's no correlation with crime/religion, but your notion that secularists are immoral isn't backed by the data.
the truth Holladay, UTDec. 6, 2012 4:46 p.m.
WE don't why know some have homosexual desires,
but God has given us weaknesses for a reason.
God Has has us each trails ans tribulation which we must overcome.
YOu can let sexual desries and behaviour define you, or you can let righeousness and love of God define you.
The Choice is always yours.
Christ has said, talking of Marriage in Matthew 19 11-12:
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
I am not so sure some should be demanding marriage, even Christ indocates not all will be able to recieve marriage in this life.
But we must stay steadfast in the Gospel.
Tolstoy salt lake, UTDec. 6, 2012 4:43 p.m.
Humans are not animals? really in what fantasy world? why does alt have to prove anything? you rely solely on your mythical (unproven) beliefs to justify your position. I would say evidence that homosexuality exist throughout the natural world is far more convincing anyway. Also when you talk about morality you are talking abut the new testament and your interpretation of it that is not necessarily what "people" talking about when they say morality.
Claudio Springville, UtDec. 6, 2012 4:28 p.m.
Last time I checked, humans were animals. That's the scientific family we belong to. We aren't plants, fungi, or bacteria. A basic biology course would clear that up... I think I learned it in 7th grade. Since your premise is faulty, I don't see the need to argue about the rest of your point, which overgeneralizes too much anyway to be cogent.
Due to DN's 4 post restrictions, this is it for me. I recommend you read my third post. It very clearly explains my beliefs on this issue. If you disagree with that, by all means go for it. I wish you all the best, despite your inaccurate characterizations that I am Godless, secular-minded, etc.
patriot Cedar Hills, UTDec. 6, 2012 4:09 p.m.
Monogamy? You mean an individual that has only one spouse during their lifetime or at any one time? I suppose you could stretch monogamy into morality since polygamy is morally wrong today but when one speaks of morality alt134 they usually mean the biblical moral code of chastity or the law of chastity as defined by the New Testament Lord which strictly prohibits adultery and homosexuality. One can be gay but not participate in homosexual behavior which was the point that I was trying to make. Most gays (not all) reject any New Testament moral code or commandments. I believe Muslims, Jews and most other main stream religions also prohibit both adultery and homosexuality? Now if you throw out religion and define your moral compass according to the secular godless world then I guess just about anything goes.
donn layton, UTDec. 6, 2012 4:00 p.m.
RE: Craig Clark, same sex attraction is not a sin. The sin is acting on those urges." God doesn't need a self-annointed surrogate to certify what is a sin. Let's leave it to him to judge. OK,
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart( MT 5: 27-28)
James 4:17 declares, "Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins." A sin of omission is a sin that is the result of not doing something God's Word teaches that we should do.
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
God does grade on a curve, you must be 100%.
patriot Cedar Hills, UTDec. 6, 2012 3:58 p.m.
Last time I checked Claudio Humans are NOT animals. Secondly you really have to show proof of HUMAN homosexual genes or other homosexual behavior at birth and there is NONE that exist at least none in the world of science. Set aside your political correctness just for moment and at least consider facts. I understand the need for liberals to somehow re-write the homosexual story all the way back to birth for the sake of "being fair" or perhaps shaping things into their secular world but again facts are facts. There is no human homosexual gene and there is no biological proof of homosexuality at birth.... period. You are however free to believe in whatever you choose I suppose.
Claudio Springville, UtDec. 6, 2012 3:55 p.m.
Well, Ted, I don't see that in any way, shape or form in my posts, so I don't know who you were directing your thoughts to.
What I do see from the new website and from the words of LDS Church leaders and common sense is that those with SSA are indeed supposed to be "embraced, supported" and treated as normal as anyone else with trials and difficulties in life. I'm sorry you seem to feel otherwise. Good luck with keeping that commandment...how does it go... "love one another as I hath loved you," does that sound right?
kevo Saratoga Springs, UTDec. 6, 2012 3:35 p.m.
I am glad we are receiving more clarification on this issue and more exhortations to love and not discriminate because of someone's tendencies and/or choices. We would all do better to love others and work on our own imperfections before trying to "fix" someone else. Regardless of what you believe, this is a big step in the right direction.
@Final Word - I think you may have misunderstood Midwest Mom's point. I believe she was making a point against immoral hypocrites. You know, "this immoral act is bad and it's disgusting, but the fact I'm cheating on my wife isn't AS bad and disgusting." I think that's what she was saying.
Ted H. Midvale, UTDec. 6, 2012 3:24 p.m.
My point was that proving something can be seen in nature is hardly good justification that such behavior should be embraced, supported, or seen as normal.
Lane Myer Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 3:22 p.m.
The Final Word
I think you missed what MW Mom was saying. There is such a difference between putting yourself above others (as many LDS members do - especially with gay people) and loving those brothers and sisters with SSA, admitting that you cannot possibly understand what they are feeling or where they are coming from. Accepting that they are different than you and that you are not their judge.
So many times we simply think that gays should just avoid the temptation. YOU try being alone and unpartnered for the rest of your life. It is not a natural state of being for most humans. We like to pair up. That is a normal response and action. So they not only must fight the urge to be attracted to someone of the same sex, they also must fight the feeling of wanting to partner. Then they have to put up with us members telling them that we too have temptations. It is not even close. It sounds like a hell on earth to me...how about you?
Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, UtDec. 6, 2012 3:11 p.m.
To "atl134" so then you agree with me. Heterosexual people must also control their urges the same as SSA people.
To "RanchHand" who is preventing a SSA person from getting married. I remember some recent news stories about LDS SSA people that are married and have children.
The Final Word Alpine, UTDec. 6, 2012 2:37 p.m.
@Midwest Mom
"Let the hetero-sexual population make their own houses chaste, before they try remodeling their neighbors."
So, only perfect people can help or give direction to other people?
Well, that leaves exactly zero people to help one another. Last I checked we are all imperfect.
The world and church are filled with imperfect people but that doesn't render everyone incapable of helping, guiding, or giving direction.
A parent has faults/weaknesses so that means they can't instruct their children on the same weakness? Perhaps it actually gives them additional insight into overcoming or preventing that particular issue. It hardly disqualifies them.
Seems like someone might be using the "other people aren't worthy to give me correction so whatever they say is worthless" excuse.
Tolstoy salt lake, UTDec. 6, 2012 2:36 p.m.
I would encourage anyone posting on this thread to read over it and just notice where the bitter statements are coming from, for the most part it is not the LGBT poster and their supports.
Jeff S Sandy, UTDec. 6, 2012 2:16 p.m.
Maybe it is just me, but, from after reading these comments I don't see how anyone's understanding has changed.
RanchHand Huntsville, UTDec. 6, 2012 2:09 p.m.
The difference is that the one CHOOSES to be single/celibate.
The other can NOT marry even if they want to.
Claudio Springville, UtDec. 6, 2012 2:07 p.m.
Ted H,
You're right, I didn't understand your response to my post at all. I was refuting patriot's claim that SSA is only a learned and chosen condition. What was your point?
Ajax Mapleton, UTDec. 6, 2012 2:07 p.m.
Celibacy of any sort for almost anyone is a recipe for failure.
Tolstoy salt lake, UTDec. 6, 2012 2:05 p.m.
I understand what you are trying to say however I think the churches sentiments have lead to great confusion within its own members and very uneven interactions and views coming from its membership as is clearly illistrtaed in these post (including your own).
? SLC, UTDec. 6, 2012 1:50 p.m.
Enough with "the bubble" vs. "mission field" mindset. We're all part of one church. Neither is better than the other, no one's experiences are better than another's. Each person for the most part is trying their best to do what is right and to keep the covenants they have made.
RedShirt USS Enterprise, UTDec. 6, 2012 1:22 p.m.
To "Craig Clark" that is what the Prophets of God have said. That is not my idea.
I am not judging, just relaying information that you apparently didn't have.
SoCalChris Riverside, CADec. 6, 2012 1:21 p.m.
Once again I am delighted with a statement by the LDS Church. This issue absolutely requires compassion and sensitivity while at the same time maintaining standards. I believe for the vast majority of gay people same-sex attraction is something that just came to them naturally. I am thankful I have not had to deal with that issue myself and my heart goes out to those who do have to deal with it.
atl134 Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 1:13 p.m.
"To "non believer" what is the difference between telling an unmarried heterosexual person to not act out on their desires and telling the same thing to a person with same sex attraction?"
An unmarried heterosexual person is allowed, nay, encouraged, to date, and is perfectly allowed to do those cute little things like holding hands. Would unmarried homosexuals be able to those things that are not in violation of the law of chastity without getting condemned by other members?
Craig Clark Boulder, CODec. 6, 2012 1:13 p.m.
"....same sex attraction is not a sin. The sin is acting on those urges."
God doesn't need a self-annointed surrogate to certify what is a sin. Let's leave it to him to judge. Does that sound reasonable enough?
Ted H. Midvale, UTDec. 6, 2012 1:11 p.m.
I know my response will be like me responding to a wall, but here goes.
"There are homosexual animals, of virtually every species, on land, in air, under the sea. That is scientific fact." Fine. There are also countless examples in nature of cannibalism.
I also saw a nature show one time of the different documented cases of animals being born with an extra head, or leg, or tail. Not sure what your point is by saying homosexuality exists in nature..?
Ted H. Midvale, UTDec. 6, 2012 1:09 p.m.
The same way wanting to rob a bank is not a crime. But as soon as I rob a bank, I've done something wrong. Pretty simple really.
atl134 Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 1:09 p.m.
"will never accommodate anything regarding morality because they don't believe in morality"
That's silly. Many gay couples who actively engage in actions not allowed by the church completely believe in moral concepts like monogamy (particularly those that want same-sex marriage).
marxist Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 1:03 p.m.
re: RAB "I hope the fault-finders against the church can likewise learn to keep the past where it belongs." Well what's past IS past - where else can it be. The problem is: to understand the present the past must be comprehended - it's not going anywhere. That said, I also applaud the increasingly moderate LDS Church.
Mungagungadin Portland, ORDec. 6, 2012 12:59 p.m.
I agree that there is no new information in this new website. Yet, the church is making an emphasis that was not there before. I am a Psych grad from BYU and I know that the church's institutions, with ecclesiastical endorsement, sponsored everything from lobotomies to chemical castration to coerced aversion therapy which is better known as torture, and which had a high death rate by suicide. Just a few years ago, for most part, the church and its institutions are putting those things away and adopting a different approach: use only alienation, pressure and shame to suppress gay expression. And now, we are adopting a new strategy that I heartily approve of: love the gay kids no matter what. However, that warm fuzzy has holes in it; the church would not approve even the use of the church's name on the publication that is most circulated to help families with gay kids, the Family Acceptance Project, which is great.
I support this effort but I believe it will fail without honest interaction and admission of our past acts.
xscribe Colorado Springs, CODec. 6, 2012 12:46 p.m.
One poster says that being gay sometimes is a choice and that they have a friend who "chose" to be gay and to experiment with homosexuality. I would argue it was just that, experimentation, not chosing whether or not to be gay.
Redshirt: Which doctrine is it that you say is perfect? The Mormon's churches doctrine, which differs from Catholic doctrine, which differs from....Are you saying all other religions other than Mormons have imperfect doctrine? Or are you merely saying the Bible is the perfect doctrine, which would then put into question the validity of the BoM, WoW, Pearl of Great Price, etc.?
Claudio Springville, UtDec. 6, 2012 12:38 p.m.
I know this is useless, because talking to you is like talking to a wall, but for those who honestly have questions...
There are homosexual animals, of virtually every species, on land, in air, under the sea. That is scientific fact. Why would it be true that humans are the sole outliers? Those who have SSA are born with it. It's not a question, it's a fact. So-called conversion therapy does nothing to change this. Are there examples of people with SSA who go on to live in a heterosexual relationship? Yes. Does this mean they no longer have SSA? No it does not.
RedShirt USS Enterprise, UTDec. 6, 2012 12:36 p.m.
To "non believer" what is the difference between telling an unmarried heterosexual person to not act out on their desires and telling the same thing to a person with same sex attraction?
To "Mungagungadin" this is nothing more than a public statement of church policies that are over 20 years old.
Show me a church full of perfect people, and I will show you a church full of hypocrisy. The fact is that people are not perfect, but the doctrine is.
TallGuy1970 Syracuse, UTDec. 6, 2012 12:29 p.m.
@non believer, This is no different for anyone who does not marry. I know a few people who are not married, and they likely will never be married. They have desires, but are also counseled not to act on them. How is it any different?
Mungagungadin Portland, ORDec. 6, 2012 12:27 p.m.
I think this is a valiant effort that will fail. Most Mormons now process what the church puts out through its news service as propoganda meant for non-Mormons, and preserve for ourselves the ability to cherry-pick from Conference Talks. Such talks lay the groundwork for rejection and even alienation of gay kids. Mormons do *not* feel that public statements like this overturn Conference material. This website will be suspected and for good reason: it does not welcome interaction or comments. It does not invite those who have been hurt by their Mormon families to come show their blood and scars and be cared for as they should have been all along, before they were betrayed by those who said they loved them forever.
I'm a straight, married person with only hetero kids and even I can see that this plan has big flaws.
RAB Bountiful, UTDec. 6, 2012 12:17 p.m.
I likewise applause the Church for this effort. I hope the fault-finders against the church can likewise learn to keep the past where it belongs. The world, including members of the church, gains better understanding of the plight and struggles of those who experience same-sex attraction with every passing day. It is disingenuous to continually condemn the church for unrealized insensitivities uttered in the past.
It does not matter if same-sex attraction is a choice, genetic, or some mixture of both. What matters is that they are human beings, just as deserving of our love, respect, and nonjudgmental mercy as any other of us universally imperfect and sinful human beings. Many of them carry a heavy internal moral burden that makes them all the more needful and deserving of our mercy and understanding. At this time of year, we celebrate Christ, who among other reasons, came into the world not to condemn the world. Anyone who claims to be a follower of Christ therefore must likewise avoid condemning others for their personal behavior. Rather, we should be seeking to lighten their burdens and we should be empathiinge with their mental and spiritual turmoil and social struggles.
Third try screen name Mapleton, UTDec. 6, 2012 12:15 p.m.
I have a few questions. Beyond the attitude adjustment the church is calling for, what is the position regarding those who cannot or will not refrain from same-sex behaviors? Is is acceptable to date someone of the same sex as long as you don't go too far? Does the church find it acceptable to live together and remain celibate?
We know the militant gays will not accept any sort of therapy to change people back. How does the church feel about that?
Can people who are openly gay and in a relationship be baptized? Or must they forsake the sin first?
Still, so many questions.
non believer PARK CITY, UTDec. 6, 2012 12:12 p.m.
So it is ok to have the desires, but as soon as you act on them, you are out? So anyone Gay, Lesbian or Transgender have to be celebate to be a member of the church? I do not see how this really improves anything?
Midwest Mom Soldiers Grove, WIDec. 6, 2012 12:12 p.m.
Whoa, SS. My criticism is not towards the Church, which I love. I struggle with the small minds of many who live in "the bubble" and who frequently bless those of us in "the mission field" with their superior enlightenment and knowledge.
God loves us all. Only when this world is over will we see with new eyes and understand the things that were incomprehensible before. Unfortunately, in the meantime, those who have the truth, frequently err in thinking that they know all truth and are the truth. Some forget that the very ancestors whose coattails they hang onto were also once converts and that we all must be converted, in one way or another. That process is frequently messy and fraught with error. There is more than one way to be a pioneer. I've looked at it and the website is wonderful.
RedShirt USS Enterprise, UTDec. 6, 2012 11:55 a.m.
To "Ernest T. Bass" where is the proof. I have never heard of a study that states that being gay is an inborn trait. Last I know, the APA had no idea.
To "Craig Clark" explain why a person can be addicted to food, or pornography. If you read the LDS church literature, same sex attraction is not a sin. The sin is acting on those urges.
patriot Cedar Hills, UTDec. 6, 2012 11:55 a.m.
re:Ernest T. Bass
You are partly right and partly wrong. It's not a choice for some gays. They have developed same gender attraction for what ever reasons no fault of their own. This however does NOT assume they are born with same gender attraction. There is ZERO scientific evidence that children are born with homosexuality so you are wrong to assume that Ernest. There is also other gays that have indeed CHOSEN to be gay and to experiment with homosexuality. I have a friend who sadly fits this crowd.
patriot Cedar Hills, UTDec. 6, 2012 11:49 a.m.
The gay movement is divided into two group - the normal gays and the radical militant gays. The normal gay crowd - those that obviously have same gender attraction but at least understand that there is a moral component to having these feelings will stay with the Church. Elder Holland made it clear a few years ago that a gay person is not denied any blessings in the Church including temple blessings and can hold any calling so long as they keep the moral code of the Church. The radical militant San Francisco gay crowd (for the most part) will never accommodate anything regarding morality because they don't believe in morality....meaning they have the secular Godless view of the world that there are no such things as moral commandments. I am guessing the vast majority of gays probably migrate closer to the left wing secular crowd.
Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UTDec. 6, 2012 11:16 a.m.
It's not a choice. Just like people are born left handed (it's not understood why a small minority are born left handed, they didn't choose it, being left hand dominant just feels right), they are born that way. Treat them with the respect they deserve.
Craig Clark Boulder, CODec. 6, 2012 11:06 a.m.
Same sex attraction is something I don't understand but the old explanations I learned in church won't do anymore. To explain it away as evil, perversion, or satanic can't explain the attraction. There is greater honesty and integrity in a same sex couple openly acknowledging their feelings and desires to formally make their relationship a domestic one than there is in a heterosexual married man who sneaks around to cheat on his wife.
Let's hope this website is a step in the right direction for the church.
Born that Way Layton, UTDec. 6, 2012 11:04 a.m.
This is desperately needed in our current time. The culture is defining this issue with a megaphone right now. Many of the definitions are flawed and perverse.
Church members often want to counter those cultural definitions, seeing only extremities. But due to a lack of understanding, many members throw everyone that has even the slightest inclination into category as the extremes, essentially "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
Make no mistake: Many of our popculture versions of this attraction are dead wrong.
The concept that one has no choices because of certain inborn inclinations. It lies about the lifestyle required of such, pressing the idea that the only path of happiness for "those people" comes by playing this role. The world's way is lazy and discriminatory against gays.
The Lord's way says all deserve compassion, patience and understanding. We need to be understood, and those who do experience SSA need to know they are not loathesome--they can love themselves and feel loved by their fellow saints.
SS MiddleofNowhere, UtahDec. 6, 2012 10:57 a.m.
This is great. However, no matter what good the church does there will still be those like "marxist" and "Midwest Mom" who won't give credit where credit is due. There will always be something to accuse and attack for them.
@Midwest Mom, no one is saying that other people don't sin, that's not the point of this website. Accusations and playing the blame game is simply a way for someone to justify their own actions. Church leaders have ALWAYS spoken out against the very things you have mentioned.
marxist Salt Lake City, UTDec. 6, 2012 10:43 a.m.
Well, hold the phone. I think the Church not only needs to explain its current position - it also, but won't or can't explain its past positions.
TallGuy1970 Syracuse, UTDec. 6, 2012 10:38 a.m.
I think the greatest purpose of this website is to educate and soften the hearts of LDS members who may not have personal experience with same gender attraction.
Midwest Mom Soldiers Grove, WIDec. 6, 2012 10:33 a.m.
It is so easy to sit and pontificate on the weaknesses and sins of others. How many people who have loads of counsel to share with the LGBT population are guilty of oggling at women (or men) or watching soft porn on television or in movies? Let the hetero-sexual population make their own houses chaste, before they try remodeling their neighbors'.
Arroba Brigham City, UTDec. 6, 2012 10:12 a.m.
3grandslams Iowa City, IADec. 6, 2012 9:43 a.m.
Hopefully by reaching out the church will create an atmosphere that will make repentance of homo-sexual behavior a clear and viable option, rather than an individual thinking there is no hope.
Darrel Eagle Mountain, UTDec. 6, 2012 9:41 a.m.
This is fantastic. I believe there is great confusion in the Church over how to love those that may be different from us. I really hope this helps to clarify and improve attitudes.
byufan1993 Provo, , UTDec. 6, 2012 9:38 a.m.
Oh how I love this gospel and this church. I have a few friends that struggle with same-sex attraction and I hope that this website can be a source of light for them.
Aggielove Cache county, USADec. 6, 2012 9:33 a.m.
I'm the manliest man in the room, and I still agree with this.
But. I think we need greater understanding of several items in the church, and beyond.
Virgil SALT LAKE CITY, UTDec. 6, 2012 9:31 a.m.
It's quite amazing. The church says the same thing it's been saying for years, and yet people who previously desperately wanted to be offended are suddenly very happy. Strange indeed.