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Topic: Boxing Thread (Read 80916 times)
Frequent Poster
Posts: 67
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #100 on:
December 23, 2008, 07:23:46 AM »
Quote from: maija on December 22, 2008, 06:42:54 PM
Mayweather has very good timing, finds good openings, plays range very well and has great body angles and evasive skills .... In the system of eskrima I study (Visayan Corto Kadena), these skills are what our, so called, 'TippyTappy' drills develop. Perhaps for him also .....?
Sure, I am just not a big fan of them, that's all.
Sugar Ray did it first and did it better, but that's only my humble opinion.
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Posts: 84
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #101 on:
December 23, 2008, 10:30:21 PM »
Quote from: ryangruhn on December 20, 2008, 06:29:37 PM
(from another forum)
Sugar Ray eats this Cuban guy alive for the 1976 Gold Medal.
1.)Always stays outside the Cuban's lead. Works his jab and jab-hook combos. Parry's the jab and puts a cross down the middle.
2.) When he moves right, He never moves into the cross, always laterally with his right hand up.
3.) His footwork is amazing. He does a great little move that the Cuban never catches. He takes one step to his right and then rolls left, getting the Cuban to "bite" on the right step and throw the left cross. Classic. A blueprint for righties everywhere.
My uncle worked in the administration at Sugar Ray's high school. Ray Leonard thought of him as a sort of mentor because my uncle was also a link to the Great Flash Elorde... he was very much into boxing. His son was a boxer in Elorde's stable prior to entering West Point. I asked my cousin about his meeting with Ray Leonard and he said that at that moment in time Ray Leonard's speed and mitt work was incredible to behold. He got the opportunity to spar a round with him but it wasn't serious sparring.
Ray Leonard was a good guy - when he won the gold in Montreal - he had my uncle there as a guest.
In his fight with Marvin Hagler, Ray Leonard did the mirror of what Manny did in the De La Hoya fight - he led with the strong hand instead of the jab and then spun off -- it flustered Hagler.
"..awaken your consciousness of our past, already effaced from our memory, and to rectify what has been falsified and slandered."
Jose Rizal, from his 1889 essay, ' To The Filipinos '
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Posts: 42558
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #102 on:
December 24, 2008, 12:48:16 AM »
Tangential story:
For a time one of my sisters parlayed working for Howard Cosell
into some fairly heavy involvement with boxing telecasts and PR (e.g. she represented heavyweight champ Riddick Bowe for a time) , , , Anyway, as part of this she would get me gigs from time to time as "assistant stage manager" for various championship fights. Mostly this meant that I sat at Al Bernstein's elbow and controlled security in the area.
When welter champ Marlon Starling came up to middleweight to challenge Michael Nunn, the color commentators were Angelo Dundee and then heavyweight champ Buster Douglas and I got to spend the day with them escorting them around and such. Both AD and BD were a pleasure to spend the day with.
The night before BD defended his title against Evander Holyfield, there was a dress rehearsal for the pre-fight ceremonies. I got to meet Sugar Ray AND Thommy Hearns (got to read TH's hand too-- an absolutely amazing hand!) A few minutes later I saw TH and Sugar Ray sitting down together in deep conversation IIRC they probably were plotting their second or third fight. After TH returned to his entourage, someone else sat down with SR and during the course of the conversation SR apparently was showing the other man some details about jabbing. Naturally this had my attention!
Good times , , ,
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Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #103 on:
June 06, 2009, 06:39:01 PM »
Anyone have any good clips to share of Jersey Joe Walcott and/or George Forman after his comeback?
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Fear and Loathing in Boxing
Reply #104 on:
April 11, 2010, 06:26:40 PM »
LAS VEGAS Former heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield is using George Foreman's comeback more than 15 years ago as inspiration.
The 47-year-old Holyfield (43-10-2, 28 KOs) knocked out 41-year-old Frans Botha with 2:05 left in the eighth round to claim the WBF heavyweight championship on Saturday night. Holyfield (43-10-2) knocked the defending champion down 31 seconds earlier with a right to the chin.
Botha (47-5-3) beat refree Russell Mora's count, but Mora then stopped the fight with the South African backed into a corner.
"I'm going to be the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world," Holyfield said.
Two judges, Jerry Roth and Glenn Feldman, had Botha ahead 67-66 when the fight was stopped. The other judge, Herb Santee, had it 69-64 for Holyfield.
"I'm happy Botha gave me an opportunity," Holyfield said. "When people talk about you, it's who I fought. I fought the best."
There were only 3,127 people at the Thomas & Mack Center, most rooting for Holyfield in his first fight since Dec. 20, 2008, when he lost a majority decision to Nikolay Valuev.
"George Foreman said, 'It's not about my age,'" Holyfield referred to what the former champ said back in the 1990s. "He became heavyweight champion of the world."
In the second round, Holyfield briefly lost his balance, stumbling into a corner after a right from Botha with 2:04 left.
"(Holyfield has) got the skills. He's got the determination," Botha said. "He landed his shots. He's a true warrior. I didn't feel ashamed losing to a great champion like him."
At the post-fight press conference, it was mentioned Holyfield would like to fight one of the Klitschko brothers, who hold three of the four major heavyweight champions. Wladmir Klitschko holds two titles, while Vatali holds one.
Early on, Botha was warned by the referee twice in the first three rounds for hitting behind the head. Botha also was warned in the first round for a double hit to the head during a clinch.
This was Holyfield's first fight in Las Vegas since 2003, when he lost to James Toney at Mandalay Bay.
Before Saturday, Holyfield was only 10-6 in Las Vegas
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Serious hand speed
Reply #105 on:
February 24, 2011, 11:17:10 AM »
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Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #106 on:
February 24, 2011, 02:08:53 PM »
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Boxing Thread: Ali-Frazier, 40 years ago today
Reply #107 on:
March 08, 2011, 12:45:00 PM »
Bring back any memories?
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Mayweather jumproping
Reply #108 on:
July 10, 2011, 05:56:04 PM »
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Bernard Hopkins advises Rashad Evans
Reply #109 on:
August 12, 2011, 07:34:53 AM »
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WSJ: Pacquiao challenger trains Vegan
Reply #110 on:
February 28, 2012, 10:47:07 AM »
If you click on this URL, can you see the article?
Pretty soon the boxer will pass on the burger. He will deny the cheese. He will skip the sushi that he adores, and he will notas Sylvester Stallone did so memorably and nauseatingly in "Rocky"break five eggs into a glass, and slurp them down raw.
Instead, the boxer will embrace the quinoa. He will thrill to the avocado and befriend the almond. He will enjoy the spinach, the tofu, and the $7.95 organic smoothie that bears his not-yet-household name.
And on June 9 in Las Vegas, after months of strict vegan training, the undefeated boxer Timothy Bradley Jr. hopes to have the fight of his lifeand defeat the world-renowned champion Manny Pacquiao.
"Dude, I swear, it's the most unbelievable feeling ever," Bradley said. It was Thursday morning in New York City, and Bradley, 28, was riding to a news conference in a slick SUV, praising the diet he believes gives him a pronounced advantage in the ring.
Enlarge Image
Timothy Bradley (left) beat Joel Casamayor by TKO in the eighth round on Nov. 12.
."The reason I love it so much is that I feel connected to the world," Bradley said. He was wearing a charcoal gray suit jacket, a purple dress shirt, and jeans. "My thoughts are clearer, crisp. I am sharp. Everything is working perfectlyI feel clean. It's a weird feeling, man. It's just a weird feeling."
Bradley, who lives and trains in Palm Springs, Calif., first experimented with a vegan diet in 2008, when he was readying for a title fight in London, England. An adviser suggested that a vegan regimen would give him more energy and endurance. Bradley was given a list of foods to consider.
By his own description a "meat and potatoes guy," Bradley was staggered to feel an almost-immediate surge in preparation and competition. "I was able to outwork a lot of my opponents," he said.
"He really liked it," said Bradley's trainer, Joel Diaz. "His body felt different."
Since then, Bradleynicknamed "Desert Storm"has stuck by the vegan diet as he became junior welterweight champion and built an unblemished record of 28-0. For three months leading up to a bout, he will eat vegan, with no exceptions. This is what he intends for his MGM Grand showdown with Pacquiao on the second Saturday in June.
"I'll still be a vegan even after the weigh-in," Bradley said.
Bradley's taste is well-known in vegan circles in Palm Springs, the city where he first began to box at age 10. Tydel Wilson, a manager at the Palm Greens Cafe, said the fighter will visit the restaurant twice a day during his peak training periods. Palm Greens went so far as to create a smoothie called the "Bradley's Ultra Green" which includes spinach, kale, mint, ginger, probiotic, bananas, aloe vera, apple juice and Spirulina.
"He's such a great patron," Wilson said. "He knows most of the people here."
Bradley is hardly the first athlete to find success with vegan training. Over the years the diet has found a place in the conditioning routines of top-tier players like NFL tight end Tony Gonzalez. Cyclist David Zabriskie raced the Tour de France as a near-vegan, supplementing with small amounts of fish. Not long ago the ex-boxing champion Mike Tyson credited a vegan diet with shedding weight and improving his well-being.
But Bradley is not a retired boxer making "Hangover" movies, like Tyson. He's an elite up-and-comer who will become the latest to try and dethrone Pacquiao, the wildly popular champion and Congressman from the Philippines.
Boxing fans had hoped this spring would finally deliver a fight between Pacquiao and his dream rival Floyd Mayweather Jr. But when that pairing unravelled again, Bradley got his shot.
"It's new blood going against old blood," Bradley said. "I'm in my prime, man."
Bradley's six-month-old daughter, Jada, yelped happily in the back seat, watched over by Bradley's wife, Monica. As he prepares for the biggest fight of his career, Bradley still lives in that unpretentious place between confidence and celebrity. While the globally famous Pacquiao travels in a mega-orbit of associates and advisers and occasionally a personal composer, Bradley's entourage is lightjust a few associates, including his father, Tim Sr. On the occasion he is recognized, he never refuses an autograph.
"I've met a couple celebrities that I admired and they completely destroyed me," Bradley explained. "They were rude and didn't want to sign an autograph or take a picture. I thought if I ever made anything out of my life, I would never turn down a fan, ever. I know how that feels."
He can still travel without much interruption. The night before, as Pacquiao navigated a frantic schedule that included a scheduled meeting with NBA sensation Jeremy Lin (the summit was called off after an exhausted Pacquiao was sent to bed), Bradley and Monica went to a peaceful dinner at the Olive Garden in Times Square. Bradley joked that dinners like these were one reason he couldn't go vegan for 12 months of the year.
"I don't want to lose my wife!" he said.
"I eat more vegetables than he does," Monica protested.
"That's true," Bradley said. "I don't think I can go [vegan] year round. But for fights, I have to do it."
The SUV pulled up to an event space on Manhattan's West Side. Bradley jumped out and unhitched the trunk to remove his daughter's baby stroller. While a line of boxing fans watched, Manny Pacquiao's next opponent spent a few seconds wrestling with the stroller before it snapped open, ready to roll. Maybe it wasn't the flashiest entrance, but the vegan contender had arrived.
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"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
The Wisdom of Jimmy Wilde.
Reply #111 on:
September 12, 2012, 12:11:06 PM »
Guro C, if this is the wrong thread to post these, please advise.
Salamat po
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of
for posting this
I have been fortunate enough to find a wonderful source for old time boxing books. Mr. Clay Moyle. Moyle is best known for his recent biography of Sam Langford (which I recommend). From time to time I will provide book reports of sorts.
The first is a short 1927 book by the immortal Jimmy Wilde entitled
The Art of Boxing
. For those unfamiliar with Wilde he is basically the man the flyweight division was created for. A Welshman, Wilde is p4p one of the top ten punchers in history. He was tiny at 5'2 and for much of his career he fought at under 100 pounds. He usually weighed in fully clothed including his shoes and spent his whole career outweighed by 10-20 pounds. Yet somehow he knocked out over 100 men. While fighting in the US he often was forced to put on weight in order to fight legally as many states had laws limiting weight differentials. Catchweights indeed! Gene Tunney called Wilde the finest fighter he ever saw. Here are some of the points he makes in his book I found interesting. All of the below (with the obvious exceptions) are the thoughts of Jimmy Wilde:
Wilde was completely untaught. He learned everything through trial and error or by watching other fighters.
The most important basic talents are fast hands, fast feet and a quick mind;
He learned his trade fighting all comers, of all sizes, in traveling fair fights. The rule was one pound sterling to anyone who lasted three rounds. Wilde fought as many as 16 men in one day. He KO'd 15 that day but the 5'11, 135 pounder went the distance.
Throughout most of his career he fought with four ounce gloves;
The Stance
Upright. Wilde believes the crouch is not as effective;
Elbows at waist height, right arm resting across stomach, left forearm at almost a right angle to the body. Wilde believes this is the most relaxing possible position that still leaves one able to throw any punch in the book;
Weight on right foot
Attack and Defense
Defense is the most important element. This is shocking coming from one of the most offensively oriented fighters in history;
The key punch is of course the jab to the face. Hand and foot move together with no prior feint. Right foot stays anchored to the canvas so as not to reach or get off balance. The jab should be hard;
If the jab can be made to work? The rest of the fight proceeds relatively easily.
But another quality fighter will catch or evade the jab and counter and in this case balance is critical;
The likely counter is a right cross and swaying back slightly from the hips only, with feet not moving, leaves Wilde prepared to counter-counter the foe who may now be off balance himself (think James Toney or Floyd Mayweather);
Wilde also recommends the slip of the head. He emphasizes that you want to make the foe miss by only a little. The reason is it is easier for Wilde to stay on balance and to counterpunch with precision;
Wilde recommends a lot of upper body movement, but not a lot of foot movement. When they move it must be quick, but only with a purpose. Wilde preferred to stay in the pocket and pivot (think Pernell Whittaker). It takes less energy.
The chin should always be tucked but the head always up to maximize vision. Wilde emphasizes that the greatest opportunities come in the transition from defense to offense.
The Knock Out
Wilde never shoots for a KO. It is instead the inevitable result of doing things properly, of outboxing the other man. It is the result of so comprehensively battering his opponent that he can no longer defend;
The effectiveness of the right hand is usually dependent on how effective the left has previously been;
Wilde argues all punches should be thrown hard;
That requires tremendous confidence in one's accuracy and balance. Most light hitters lack that confidence more than anything else;
Speed is almost everything in doing a key thing, flustering your foe. What Wilde means by that is preventing him from thinking effectively;
This is when feints can lead to knockouts;
One should pursue opportunities to end the fight completely on the offensive, one should disregard what the other man might do in return. At this point Wilde may even square up to flurry and get the fight stopped;
Punching straight, and with the hands held below the shoulder, maximizes power;
Uppercut rarely. It is too dangerous to the thumb of the puncher (I wonder if he'd hold to that view with today's gloves);
When the other man covers up? Go to the body. Specifically the heart and the stomach;
Countering the Jab
Parry it, sway from the waist, sidestep it, 2-3 together makes for a great countering opportunity;
Wilde parries with either hand (something I'd never heard before). He makes the left hand parry effective by sidestepping at the same time to land a counter right cross;
When parrying with his right (the more ordinary method) he follows up by stepping inside and throwing the left to either the body or the head and then the right to the head. Wilde notes that classicists believe this move takes extraordinary athleticism and is a mistake for most fighters;
Injuries and How to Conceal Them (think Jimmy Wilde was a man or what?)
Fighting while sick, or not at 100% is simply inevitable;
When a hand is injured it is essential to intentionally throw and miss with that hand. The foes must be kept thinking;
When hurt by a punch often the best response is a sham attack;
When a hand or thumb is broken a good move is to miss with that hand and then land a mild backhand shot when you bring it back. The ref will only warn you, it doesn't hurt and the foe will think the hand is functional;
Judgement, recognizing the true condition of the opponent, is critical (think JMM stepping on the accelerator);
At the end of a round relax entirely. Go slack. Never expend unnecessary energy;
Getting hit occasionally to set something specific up can make sense. Never make the foe miss badly. Make him miss barely;
Except when throwing the right hand, move only the left foot. Pivot off the right but don't move it once you are in distance. Use your left foot to change the angle of attack frequently;
Do not let your man get yards distant or lean upon you;
Prioritize power over flashy movement;
Be quick anytime you move or punch;
The key is understanding what your foe is trying to do and countering it.
I hope you all learned at least something from Jimmy Wilde. I sure did.
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
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"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
The Wisdom of Barney Ross.
Reply #112 on:
September 12, 2012, 12:11:55 PM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of
for posting this
The greatest Jewish fighter of all time, the second man to be an undisputed three division champion and one of THE fascinating lives ever lived. Father killed in a robbery, worked for Al Capone, degenerate gambler, after he retired he joined the Marines and was a decorated hero on Guadalcanal and later ran guns to Israel. Shortly after he retired he published "The Fundamentals of Boxing." I'll stick to the high points. Except for the parenthetical, the thoughts are those of Barney Ross. This book is more complete and in depth than Wilde's so I am going to stick to major points and boxing tactics.
The transition from defense to offense is where fights are won. Surprise is a major weapon.
All punches should land with a corkscrew motion to maximize power
Ross disagrees with Wilde in that he believes the uppercut can be a valuable punch but that it is dangerous if not thrown correctly
Jumping or hopping is poor technique as one cannot counter, sidestepping is far better as is the pivot.
In footwork, less is more. Move the minimal distance necessary to accomplish the goal. Save the legs.
Unorthodox fighters like Tony Canzoneri (the 1930's Roy Jones) should not be imitated
A weary fighter is more easily KO'd and KO's are a matter of timing and accuracy more than simple power.
Often the best way to begin countering is to take a single short step backward (See Salvador Sanchez or Joe Louis)
"A good defensive fighters learns to judge instinctively how hard his foe can punch and where he punches most effectively" (Floyd Mayweather anyone?)
Clinching is a skill that must be acquired to be a good defensive fighter
The "sliding roll" is taking a short step backward to avoid a punch while at the same time dropping the head underneath the coming punch. Now one is in perfect position to counter (as Mr. Miyagi taught "Best block is no be there.")
Parrying blows to the inside is preferable to taking punches on the gloves or forearms
Like Wilde, Ross emphasizes the importance of "swaying at the hips." (Think Sweet Pea)
Methods of avoiding the jab/hook are slipping, swaying, ducking ( a dangerous method) parrying (four possible directions), sidestepping and the simplest, catching it. (How many guys know these?)
The left to the body is best blocked rather than jumped back or sidestepped.
A straight right can be parried by the right hand or blocked by hunching the left shoulder (BHOP or James Toney) though a sidestep or a slip can leave one in a better position to counter.
No rules for stopping the uppercut. Various blocks or the sway are possible
"With a counter you accumulate the power of your own body and the power of the opponent...as he comes to you."
Sidestepping is generally preferable to ducking as a set up.
The trick is to catch the foe off balance and coming to you
To counter a straight right, side step and throw a very short left hook. If it misses throw up your arms to block the next right hand.
Each counter should be a lesson learned. If the foe blocked the hook to the head? Next time counter to the ribcage.
The exact counterpunch chosen depends upon the method of defense used to avoid the initial punch. In other words a sway will lead to a different counter than a slip or a duck etc.
Quickness is critical in countering
Perhaps the most effective countering situation is stepping inside a left hook and delivering a short right to the jaw (Joe Louis anyone?)
When a fighter tires the right cross often disappears.
Offensive Strategy
"Greatest offensive weapon is a keen mind."
One must learn to feint to camouflage one's punches
Feints employ every part of the body, the eys, half punches, false steps, rolling a shoulder etc.
"Drawing an opponent's lead" is critical. This means showing phony openings so he'll throw the punch you want him to throw (Juan Manuel Marquez wrecked The Baby Bull this way)
Of course clever fighters know you are doing this, so be careful
Keep on the move, but stay balanced and prepared to hit.
Bodypunching and Infighting
Particularly effective against tall fighters
The liver, kidney's (then a legal punch) and solar plexus are best spots
To get inside foes punches, crouch, try to draw a jab, step inside and crowd him and try to get your head to the opponents left shoulder and let go with short, snappy punches and keep him there until you are done. (That's the way Henry Armstrong retired Barney)
When on offensive keep elbows close to hips to stop counters.
If on defense, sidestep and jab, if that doesn't work, close guard and throw uppercuts or clinch
Three goals-Bring vitality to highest pitch, increase skill and perfect knowledge of strategy (what I call craft)
A training schedule must be kept with clocklike perfection.
As a general rule a fighter should spend approximately five minutes with the medicine ball and light weights, an hour on calisthenics and 30 minutes each on the heavy bag/speed bag/double end bag, jumping rope, sparring and shadow boxing (that's 3+ hours daily in addition to running)
Keep mouth closed while breathing
Sparring should be full speed. Anything less is too far away from an actual fight to be of use.
Sparring should be done with specific goals regarding specific situations
Eat sparingly, Ross typically ate twice a day with proteins, whole grains and vegetables
Here is how Barney Ross closes his book
Only a small part of a champion's greatness lies in his ability. Far more important is his eagerness to learn, his flair for adding finesse and polish to his style. Most important of all is his love of the game. Every great champion was once a beginner. Without this essential love for the sport, he would always remain a beginner.
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
The Wisdom of Jack Dempsey.
Reply #113 on:
September 12, 2012, 12:12:32 PM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of
for posting this
The Jimmy Wilde and Barney Ross books I summarized recently were both useful and insightful. But Jack Dempsey's "
Championship Fighting: Explosive Punching and Aggressive Defense
" is on another level entirely. It is far longer and absolutely full of insights, thoughtful approaches, sketches and explanations. It is a boxing tour de force. I was very surprised by two things. First, I think of Dempsey as a kind of raw offensive machine. It simply ain't true. The knowledge he imparts here is comprehensive. Secondly, Dempsey and his editor Jack Cuddy make it sounds like Dempsey is actually teaching the reader. Concise declarative sentences. Written in 1950.
Dempsey spends a great deal of time on the Trigger Step (also called the Falling Step) as a source of power among other things, but I found the most interesting sections were on Defensive Technique. The thoughts below are all Dempsey's except for those in parenthesis which are kine.
Dempsey begins with his definition of defense :
How to prevent a starting punch from landing on its target
, and
how to counter with a punch
. (the bold is mine. How often do we see fighters today avoid getting hit and not doing anything else? I found it fascinating that Dempsey was utterly dismissive of jumping away or moving out of punching range as legitimate, championship level defense. Why? Because it only does half the job. Jumping away or moving out of range isn't Aggressive Defense because one cannot counterpunch while doing those things.)
Dempsey provides a cascade of defense.
-This is the least preferable. Why? A solid block can affect one's balance, because repeated shots on say the left deltoid can affect punching power as the fight goes on and because one cannot punch while blocking. Blocking can be done with the hands, shoulders, combined with a body pivot, forearms and elbows and can be used against all punches. Dempsey goes punch by punch with the best options. He emphasizes the eyes must be kept open because for each block there is a best immediate counter. This is the first kind of defense to be taught. (Fighters like Mr. Ronald Wright and Arthur Abraham never moved beyond it. Fighters like James Toney and BHOP and Floyd Mayweather rely on the shoulder portion of this technique).
-This is parrying and "brushing off." Brushing off is also called "glancing-off." This is a violent chopping movement. Deflection is superior to Blocking because one's balance remains unaffected, one is not taking punches that can wear over time and because it is done with one hand at a time so the other is free to punch. One limitation of this technique is it should be avoided against hooks. The parry is used against straight punches (think Mr. Miyagi's "side-side.") Dempsey notes that cross-Parries, i.e. blocking a left jab with one's left hand, are a bad idea as you are open to a counter right hand with nothing to stop it. Dempsey also warns against parrying "inside-out" against fast handed foes. The "Glance-off" is a more solid deflection. This move is why fighters use the backhand on the speedbag. This is training the deflection. (Think "wax-on, wax-off" and "paint the fence" taught by Mr. Miyagi. Joe Louis, Alexis Arguello and again BHOP, Toney and Floyd rely on this as does Juan Manuel Marquez).
-The King of defensive techniques.
Evasion is forcing the foe to miss a punch without any physical contact, while remaining in position to land a counter
. Why is it the king? No punishment taken and both hands free to counterpunch. Dempsey outlines four ways to evade; Slipping, bobbing, footwork and pulling away. A slip is simply rolling the shoulders that allows a straight punch to go over a shoulder. (Willie Pep, Joe Gans, Salvador Sanchez, Tony Canzoneri, Sweet Pea are wonderful practitioners of this.) Dempsey outlines the best counter against each punch and whether that punch has been slipped to the right or left. Bobbing is simply artful bowing from the waist and is especially effective against hooks to the head and in closing on the foe. No foot movement is used for either the slip or the bob. As a result the feet are ready to punch. Now when bobbing one must always be ready to simultaneously slip (the "bob and weave"). By slipping while bobbing one makes the head hard to hit and adds uncertainty as to where you are moving or punching next. (Think Joe Frazier, Nicolino Locche, a young Mike Tyson and of course Dempsey himself). Footwork can be the defensive sidestep, a single step and a pivot with the other foot. If stepping right the right foot steps and the left pivots. One punches as the stepping foot lands, not while it is stepping. Another useful piece of footwork is stepping inside a hook toward the foe. A variety of punches are available in each case. But in general when stepping inside one throws the opposite hand of the one being evaded. For example a left hook is best countered by stepping inside and throwing the right hand. (Joe Gans, Floyd Mayweather, Barney Ross, Willie Pep, Benny Leonard all did lots of this). The worst kind of evasion is "pulling away." This is basically swaying from the waist and shifting one's weight to the back foot with or without a step. This is a last resort against straight punches but should never be used against hooks to the head. (Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali anyone?). The problem is once someone gets used to pulling away from straight punches they often instinctively try to do so against hooks.
If you can get your hands on this book it really is a treat!
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
The Wisdom of Charley Goldman.
Reply #114 on:
September 12, 2012, 12:13:14 PM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of
for posting this
Charley Goldman was a pre-WWI bantamweight. He stood 5'1. He had over 130 fights and was by most accounts a competent journeyman though he did get a shot at the bantam crown on one occasion. Goldman retired at 29 due to among other things, terribly brittle hands.
But Goldman is far better known as the trainer of a series of undisputed champions. Middleweight Al McCoy, featherweight Joey Archibald and lightweight king Lou Ambers. Goldman is most well known as the man who shaped Rocky Marciano. In 1957 Goldman, Marciano and a manager, judo expert and writer named Al Bachman published a how to book. The book is just under 200m pages and loaded with insights on every element of the sport. It is clearly designed for the young man just taking up the game and is titled
Rocky Marciano's Boy's Book of Boxing and Body Building
One section really had me thinking after the fights of the last two weeks. It is authored by Goldman and is titled
The Art of Infighting
. He writes separately for the unusually tall and the unusually short fighter and goes so far, along with Marciano, to detail two fictional fights, one from each perspective, near the end of the book. But here I'll stick to the basic instruction. As usual these are Goldman's thoughts with mine in parenthesis.
Short Fighters
With hands held reasonably high either bob, weave and shuffle towards the taller foe or take deliberate steps towards him while moving the head from side to side. (Think Joe Frazier for the former and Marvin Hagler for the latter)
When the tall fighter leads, make him miss and then close until you are close to his stomach and let go short punches. (Making him miss is only half the task at hand. Turning it into an advantage is a must)
"When you get inside, stay there!" (A mistake too many fighters make. They get inside, throw a few punches and then voluntarily retreat. Though not a short guy, Brandon Rios is a good example of a guy who when he gets inside stays there).
"When you are close to [the taller foe]
keep moving almost rushing forward
at the same time shooting short chopping punches to the body. Your opponent will try to back away or hold on if he can. Don't let him.
Keep ripping your arms away from his clinches and chopping those punches to his midriff. Also when in close push your opponent's arms away from the front of his body and outward.
" (I found the two bolded sections the most illuminating. I noted that 13 hadn't stepped inside, but completely missed that even if he had he had to rush forward to counter Wlad's retreat. The second bold we've seen how many times? Wlad grabs and the shorter foe goes completely passive. He doesn't battle for position or punching room at all. Now some of that is surely Wlad's strength, but nobody even tries to make him fight inside!)
Tall Fighters
Long arms are a handicap in infighting. (Mr Paul Williams, calling Mr. Paul Williams!)
If you (the tall man) are fighting a strong, shorter man who keeps rushing you? Grab his right arm in the crook of his elbow, underneath his bicep with your left glove. (Yup, ole Charley recommends the clinch! Why fight at a disadvantage?). The force the forearm between your right bicep and side.
Keep your left foot between the shorter man's two feet and your right foot outside. Keep your body pivoted to the right. Now make your right arm do double duty and pound at the ribs with short shots. Now push the shorter man backwards and push his arms back as you do so. (Wlad does about half of this. He doesn't punch. He just clamps down until a break is called for).
Things for both to remember
Do not keep your chin on the other guy's shoulder or above his head. Too big a chance of injury.
When the referee calls break, take your right hand and push the other man away and
then move to your right and fast with your hands up
. (It's pretty obvious you don't want to stand in front of a guy, but how often do you see this?). As Goldman notes at the end of this section "Protect yourself at all times."
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
The Wisdom of Mike Gibbons.
Reply #115 on:
September 12, 2012, 12:14:28 PM »
My deepest thanks to marbleheadmaui of
for posting this
Mike Gibbons was the older and smaller of the legendary Gibbons Brothers. Mike was mostly a middle and fought around the WWI years. How good was he? How about 110+ wins against a dozen losses and he was never knocked out. How good was the competition? Mike went 4-2 against HOFers including a win over a young Harry Greb. In other words Mike Gibbons was the real deal.
He published several books on training and boxing technique the following is taken from his
How to Box
published in 1925. The book is seventy five pages of instruction with extraordinary demonstration photos showing the Gibbons Brothers using model technique. The book covers every element of the sport and I am going to focus on his commentary on "Ring Generalship." As always the ideas are Gibbons with any comments I might have in parenthesis.
Size Up the Opponent
Boxing generalship is planning your tactics and strategies.
If the foe is a thinking fighter one should begin cautiously so not to be led into a trap.
If he is merely a puncher, start fast and move to back him up.
Keep Him on the Defensive
At the opening bell come out confidently and keep walking forward until the foe is in retreat. As you come forward feint and threaten and you can move him backwards without throwing a punch.
Going backwards is far more difficult and tiring.
Occasionally back off just to change things up and make the other man think.
When you set the pace and have the initiative the fight being fought is your fight.
Don't Rush Wildly
Aggression requires brains, not brawn. You can be aggressive without even punching.
Try to take the lead at the beginning of each round and hold it throughout. But don't go overboard. Save the hardest punching for the second half of the round when the foe is tiring a little.
If you've noticed little faults in the opponent don't move on them too early in the round. Wait until he's slowed a bit and is even more vulnerable. (This is pretty sophisticated stuff, I'd have taken a shot whenever I thought it would work).
Judges, reporters and fans remember what happens at the end of the round (See Ray Leonard v Hagler)
Never Lead Blindly
Never lead unless you know why you are taking a certain action. Otherwise you may walk into a trap.
When you hurt your man do not rush. Punch deliberately and with purpose and do not forget to feint to open him up. Accuracy is more important than volume in finishing. (See Joe Louis)
Develop Easy Style
A good style enables one to relax and conserve energy while leaving you in a position to be effective (Old Roberto Duran)
Keeping feet, shoulders and hands always moving a little one prevents the strain that comes with being stationary (see Young Roberto Duran)
Feinting is a key to generalship. This is how one gathers information on what the foe is tying to do and how he'll react to what you are doing. (Nobody better at this today than BHOP).
Change Your Tactics
Change tactics frequently to keep the foe guessing. (Juan Manuel Marquez has really learned to do this).
Never be in one spot for longer than a moment (If there is ONE lesson for young fighters to learn this is it).
When you run into a fighter who is doing something hard to figure out? When he starts it? Launch an all out attack. This will discourage him from trying it. When he moves to doing something you are comfortable with. Keep him there by LOOKING worried until you find the openings you want (Mike Gibbons is a pretty smart guy huh?)
Box Your Own Style
If a guy likes to stand and trade? Don't. If a guy likes to retreat? Make him stand and trade. (Versatility is a great advantage obviously).
Encourage a guy who likes to retreat to lead and attack (See Tommy Hearns and Wilfredo Benitez)
Encourage the punch you want to counter by making the foe miss his other punches but let that punch land lightly or graze you. Next time? He's going to throw it even harder and THAT is when you counter and counter hard (Meet Mr. Floyd Mayweather)
Feint, feint, feint
Keep Cool When Hurt
Keep expression constant when taking a big punch
If not really hurt, attack and take the play away. Keep an eye out for the punch that hurt you.
If hurt badly? Clinch, clinch, clinch until your head clears. Do anything to survive.
If knocked down take whatever count you need to clear your head and no more. Then follow the guidelines above.
Keep Chin Protected
Keep chin tucked and try to take blows, that cannot be avoided, on the head, not in the face. (Again see BHOP)
Do NOT take a blow to land one. "
The crowd at a boxing contest likes to see a fellow stand up and take it, but their applause is poor compensation for a tinned ear, broken nose or becoming mentally deranged from continuous blows on the jaws or temple.
Don't try any blow or defensive move you can't employ properly. Experimenting should only be done in training.
Look Out For Traps
Do not fall for a foes in-ring talk
Always have an idea what you want to do, but never stay wedded to a plan that isn't working. Thinking in the ring is essential.
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #116 on:
September 12, 2012, 04:44:43 PM »
Very nice SG.
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #117 on:
September 12, 2012, 09:39:32 PM »
Quote from: Crafty_Dog on September 12, 2012, 04:44:43 PM
Very nice SG.
Tail wags Guro C!
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 42558
Old school boxing coach
Reply #118 on:
September 18, 2012, 06:58:55 PM »
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
The Cardinal Sins of Boxing by Doug Ward
Reply #119 on:
October 10, 2012, 11:22:51 PM »
Thank you Leo Daher for posting this elsewhere which I copied and pasted here.
The Cardinal Sins of Boxing
by Doug Ward on October 9, 2012
There are some very specific things you have to do inside the ring to be a good boxer, but there are also some very specific things you should NEVER do in the ring in order to be a good boxer. Of course, there are the basic rules, like dont drop your jab when you bring it back, dont step with the wrong foot first, be sure to keep your hands up and so on. Aside from some of these types of common, basic mistakes, there are a few more advanced ones that should be taken very seriously. Consider them the Cardinal Sins of Boxing.
Sin #1. Never, ever drop your hands when you are coming out of an exchange. If you step back with your hands down, you are almost always guaranteed to get clipped. Instances where this has come back to bite a fighter are endless, but for a perfect example, type Mike McCallum versus Donald Curry into YouTube and, at least, watch the fifth round to see the last, biggest mistake a once-promising fighter ever made.
Sin #2. Never step straight back when you go on the defensive. Step side to side, give your opponent angles and force them to adjust their attack to find you. When you move straight back, you are staying right in the line of fire and right on the end of your opponents punches the last place you want to be.
Sin #3. When you have just ducked and slipped a combination and are coming up from a crouched position, come up throwing. Dont just expect your opponent to stop throwing and let you stand up to engage again. Transform it into an offensive move by immediately retaliating from your defensive position and turning the tide back in your favor.
Sin #4. Never reach out to block punches. Make your opponent come to you. Make him commit to the punch, commit his weight and then counter. When you meet the punch half way, you make your opponents job too easy. Again, if you want a perfect example, look at the fourth round of Lennox Lewis versus Hasim Rahman on YouTube. The third round says it all.
Sin #5. Dont lead from the outside with an inside punch. The uppercut is an inside punch. The hook is an inside punch. Floyd Mayweather has a slick and effective left hook lead, but only because he uses it correctly. He uses it sparingly, he uses it selectively, but he is also Floyd Mayweather and theres only one of those. As a general rule dont do it. Dont lead with a hook or with an uppercut. They are outside punches and take too long to reach their mark. Instead, properly set them up with lead punches and sprinkle them into your combinations to make them most effective.
Once youre inside the ring, there are a myriad of mistakes you can make. Any one of them may be minor and have little or no effect on the outcome of the fight. Then, there is the other kind. It is major. It can be dramatic and it can work against you, sometimes spelling your defeat. No mistakes are good, but breaking any one of the Cardinal Sins of Boxing and youre opening yourself up to making a major faux pas. It is usually unforgiving with bad consequences and you wont get away with it very often. Confess to yourself or to your coach that you will never be tempted to do any of these. There is no good in them. Now go and sin no more.
Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 01:43:48 PM by Stickgrappler
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #120 on:
October 11, 2012, 01:52:58 PM »
Sin #5.
Dont lead from the outside with an inside punch. The uppercut is an inside punch. The hook is an inside punch
. Floyd Mayweather has a slick and effective left hook lead, but only because he uses it correctly. He uses it sparingly, he uses it selectively, but he is also Floyd Mayweather and theres only one of those. As a general rule dont do it.
Dont lead with a hook or with an uppercut. They are outside punches and take too long to reach their mark.
Instead, properly set them up with lead punches and sprinkle them into your combinations to make them most effective.
I'm guessing it's a typo and Doug Ward meant "inside" punches when he wrote "outside"
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 42558
WSJ: Pacquiao
Reply #121 on:
December 10, 2012, 10:08:10 AM »
LAS VEGASThe day after a megafight here is always eerie. First there is madness, and a few hours later, there is such dead quiet you can hear the swoosh of the cars again. On Saturday night, there was also pandemonium, with tens of thousands of Mexican fans celebrating Juan Manuel Márquez's stunning knockout victory over Manny Pacquiao.
Filipino boxer Manny Pacquiao was defeated by Mexican fighter Juan Manuel Márquez. Sports journalist Ted Lerner talks about the reaction in the Philippines and how Pacquiao was knocked out in the sixth round.
Filipino boxer Manny Pacquiao was defeated by rival Juan Manuel Marquez Saturday night. Pacquiao was knocked out in the sixth round of the event. Photo: Associated Press.
For weeks before the bout, Pacquiao and his team were crowing that that they were determined to get a knockout this time. Márquez believed him and developed a perfect strategy to deal with Pacquiao's fury. In the first couple of rounds, Márquez ate a lot of Pacquiao punches as he backed up, patiently waiting for the opening to the victory over Pacquiao he has been craving since 2004.
Pacquiao vs. Márquez
View Slideshow
Márquez, left, takes a vicious right hook from Pacquiao.
With barely a second remaining in the sixth round, Pacquiao missed with a left, and Márquez nailed him full force with a right hook to the chin that knocked his nemesis cold. Pacquiao was motionless for over a minute. Until he came around, some ringside observers feared that Pacquiao might have been hit with a fatal blow.
Boxing is a sport framed in ambivalence. Even those of us who love the science and grit of fighters have our qualms and worry about the gladiators we cheer. That ambivalence was compressed in the ring Saturday as Márquez leapt in joy while Pacquiao struggled to sit up.
Heard: What Now for Manny Pacquiao?
Philippines Wonders About Hero's Future
Earlier: Márquez Knocks Out Pacquiao in Sixth Round
The bout itself was a breathtaking ballet of violence and technique. But it didn't take long for a cloud of skepticism to roll in. Márquez has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs, but boxing fans and reporters were jabbing with questions about Márquez's newfound might. Meanwhile, as Márquez's fans celebrated, Pacquiao went to the hospital for a CT scan. It was negative, but such scans don't reveal what, if any, long-term damage was inflicted under the klieg lights.
At the post-fight news conference, it was clear that a bout with Floyd Mayweather or a rematch with Márquez are still on the table for Pacquiao. Indeed, after Pacquiao's nose-dive Saturday, it could be that Mayweather, now the undisputed pound-for-pound king, will find himself more inclined than ever to make their elusive fight. But make no mistake about it: Mayweather can throw a counter right just as well as the one that almost decapitated Pacquiao here.
Pacquiao is now a veteran of 61 fights. Many of his recent frays have been wars. And like miles on a car, hammer-and-tong battles always take something from the combatants that they cannot get back. Ever since he has attained his supernova status, Pacquiao has lost some of the gleam in his eyes for the bruising art. Unlike many boxers, Pacquiao has a passion for something other than punching prowess: He is a congressman in the Philippines with what many believe is a brilliant political future. But there will be Brink's trucks at his door in a few months with offers of future fights, and he will need to think about the price of that money and whether he can continue his part-time work in the world of hitting and being hit.
"It depends on how he feels and what he wants to do," his chagrined trainer Freddie Roach said late Saturday night, when asked about Pacquiao's possible retirement. "And if we do fight again and we get back in the gym and I see good signs, we'll go on. And if I see bad signs, we won't."
Posts: 26
Pacquiao vs. Marquez
Reply #122 on:
December 28, 2012, 12:05:53 PM »
Posted on behalf of
Crafty Dog
by Spartan Dog
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #123 on:
January 24, 2013, 07:58:55 AM »
One of my favorite fighters was Prince Naseem. There is a lot to study here! Why does what he does work when it is so "wrong"?
Power User
Posts: 42558
Bernard Hopkins?
Reply #124 on:
March 12, 2013, 01:07:11 PM »
What happened in the recent fight with Bernard Hopkins?
Power User
Posts: 42558
sore loser KOs winner
Reply #125 on:
June 24, 2013, 05:12:53 PM »
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
Happy 47th Birthday Mike Tyson!
Reply #126 on:
June 30, 2013, 07:41:21 PM »
I made 4 animated GIF's for the occasion
Mike Tyson vs Hector Mercedes - March 6, 1985
(Iron Mike's professional debut)
Mike Tyson vs Trent Singleton - April 10, 1985
Mike Tyson vs Donald Halpin - May 23, 1985
Mike Tyson vs Rick Spain - June 20, 1985
More to come. Enjoy!
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 500
"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #127 on:
July 01, 2013, 11:56:33 PM »
Made these GIF's for my site, reposting here, Enjoy!
Mike Tyson vs Lorenzo Canady - Aug. 15, 1985
Mike Tyson vs Michael Johnson - Sept. 5, 1985
Mike Tyson vs Donnie Long - Oct. 9, 1985
Mike Tyson vs Rober Colay - Oct. 25, 1985
"A good stickgrappler has good stick skills, good grappling, and good stickgrappling and can keep track of all three simultaneously. This is a good trick and can be quite effective." - Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
Power User
Posts: 42558
Freddie Roach hits the mitts
Reply #128 on:
November 30, 2013, 08:30:27 PM »
Posts: 26
Boxing Thread - Frankie Liles
Reply #129 on:
January 10, 2014, 01:11:23 PM »
Photos courtesy of former WBA Super Middleweight Champion Frankie Liles
"Myself Evil Knievel and Mark Breland I lost a hundred dollar bet to him lol"
"Me and Ray when he was Champ and I was 18"
"Ali came To Ecuador to watch me defend my title against Michael Nunn"
"I was Freddie-Roach's first champion"
"This is me and Alexis"
"Me and Thomas who's like a big brother to me."
"One of my Filipino students"
Posted on behalf of
Crafty Dog
by Spartan Dog
Power User
Posts: 42558
Hurricane Carter dies at 76
Reply #130 on:
April 20, 2014, 10:31:54 AM »
Rubin (Hurricane) Carter, Fearsome Boxer Wrongly Convicted of Murder, Dies at 76
Rubin (Hurricane) Carter, a star prizefighter whose career was cut short by a murder conviction in New Jersey and who became an international cause célèbre while imprisoned for 19 years before the charges against him were dismissed, died on Sunday morning at his home in Toronto, his friend and onetime co-defendant, John Artis, confirmed. He was 76.
The cause of death was prostate cancer, Mr. Artis said. Mr. Carter was being treated in Toronto, where he founded a nonprofit organization, Innocence International, to work to free prisoners it considered wrongly convicted.
Power User
Posts: 9484
Re: Hurricane Carter dies at 76
Reply #131 on:
April 23, 2014, 09:18:43 AM »
Quote from: Crafty_Dog on April 20, 2014, 10:31:54 AM
Rubin (Hurricane) Carter, Fearsome Boxer Wrongly Convicted of Murder, Dies at 76
Rubin (Hurricane) Carter, a star prizefighter whose career was cut short by a murder conviction in New Jersey and who became an international cause célèbre while imprisoned for 19 years before the charges against him were dismissed, died on Sunday morning at his home in Toronto, his friend and onetime co-defendant, John Artis, confirmed. He was 76.
The cause of death was prostate cancer, Mr. Artis said. Mr. Carter was being treated in Toronto, where he founded a nonprofit organization, Innocence International, to work to free prisoners it considered wrongly convicted.
One Youtube of Bob Dylan, the story of Hurricane:
Lyics linked in the NY Times story:
If even partly true, this was a very sad episode in law enforcement and racial history.
Power User
Posts: 7843
Wow this is an odd wake
Reply #132 on:
October 17, 2014, 07:09:17 AM »
Kind of creepy if you ask me but if it gives a family solace it is their business:
Power User
Posts: 7843
Emanuel Auigustus
Reply #133 on:
October 17, 2014, 07:14:53 AM »
I never saw any of his fights so when I learned of his recent shooting and pulled up these videos of his unique boxing style I was stunned. Great body control and athletic ability:
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: Boxing Thread
Reply #134 on:
October 22, 2014, 10:52:21 AM »
That is a VERY nice find. What happened in his career?
greg jah
Posts: 12
Pacquiao vs Diaz Highlight reel
Reply #135 on:
February 06, 2015, 03:06:48 PM »
Hi everyone,
Here is a nice highlight reel of the Pacquiao v Diaz fight:
Power User
Posts: 42558
Roy Jones was a major badass
Reply #136 on:
August 20, 2015, 07:45:12 AM »
Power User
Posts: 42558
Old Newspaper Article on Filipino Boxers
Reply #137 on:
January 16, 2016, 11:32:49 AM »
Power User
Posts: 42558
Tragedies strike Filipino boxers
Reply #138 on:
January 21, 2016, 09:10:18 AM »
Following up on article from 5 days ago
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