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World Trade Center Tower 7
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Topic: World Trade Center Tower 7 (Read 29602 times)
Posts: 34
World Trade Center Tower 7
May 13, 2007, 07:01:07 PM »
6 minute intro video.
One important topic not widely discussed is the issue of a third skyscraper which collapsed on September 11, 2001 named WTC7. This tower was 47 stories tall and included offices for the IRS, Secret Service, Security Exchange Commission, and Mayor Guilianis Office of Emergency Management. WTC7 was located approximately 355 feet from WTC 1 and 2.
In 1999 Mayor Guiliani created an emergency crisis center for $13 million. It was essentially a bomb shelter housed on the 23rd floor and could withstand 160 mph winds, bomb blasts, bio-terror attacks, etc. Included with his renovations were 3 generators to provide emergency power with a combined total of 42,000 gallons of diesel fuel throughout the building.
WTC7 collapsed at 5:25pm on Sept 11, 2001 in about 6.5 seconds at near free fall speed. WTC7 fell on its own footprints similar to the twin towers and caused little damage to any adjacent structures. (The Verizon building and the US post office received little damage.)
The building was evacuated of all civilians at 11:25am. All remaining firefighters were evacuated by 4pm. Craig Miller, a Secret Service agent, may have died during the collapse of tower 7 but that is in dispute. Two conflicting reports are shown below.
"The Secret Service New York Field Office was located in 7 World Trade Center, which,
along with Towers 1 and 2, collapsed following the terrorist attacks. One employee, Master Special Officer Craig Miller, died during the rescue efforts. Miller was temporarily assigned to New York in preparation for the United Nations General Assembly."
"in selfless dedication to others, Master Special Officer Craig Miller was lost in the collapse of the World Trade Center."
Although there is no official explanation that I know of for the collapse of WTC7, one explanation is that the fires in the building reached the stored diesel fuel and the impending heat caused the steel to melt.
The 9/11 Commission Report does not mention WTC 7 anywhere it its 571 pages. (Strangely it does not contain an index, making research very difficult.) A list of respected senior members of the U.S. military, intelligence services, and government have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report.
A full copy of the 9-11 commission report is found at
FEMA, in its official study, conducted by a 26 member group run by American Society of Engineers (ASCE) stated in their 296 page report in May 2002, With the information and time available, the sequence of events leading to the collapse of each tower could not be definitively determined.
FEMA also reported, The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence.
National Institute of Standards and Technology is currently investigating whether or not explosives were used in the collapse of WTC7.
While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.
Although the collapse of WTC7 should have been treated as a crime scene, no forensic testing took place because the steel was cut up and removed by FEMA. Bill Manning, editor of a 125 year old publication of Fire Engineering in Jan 2002 writes, For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China, perhaps never to be seen again in America until you buy your next car.
Larry Silverstein was the owner of WTC 7 and the lease holder for the World Trade Center Complex. Silverstein Properties estimated investment in WTC was $386 million, its insurance company, Industrial Risk Insurers, paid $861 million to rebuild on the site of WTC 7. The buildings collapse resulted in a profit of $500 million.
Larry Silverstein who is shown in a PBS documentary entitled America Rebuilds from Sept 10, 2002 states that Weve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it. And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse. Pull is industry slang for the controlled demolition of a building.
After some controversy Silverstein explained his statement as meaning pull the firefighters out of the building.
John Kerry in an interview stated that WTC7 brought down in a controlled fashion..
Dan Rather stated in a news broadcast that WTC7 looked similar to a building imploded by well placed dynamite.
The BBC announced the collapse of WTC7 twenty six minutes before it came down.
Certainly there was a lot of confusion the day of 9-11. Was the collapse of WTC7 pre-planned? If so, then it must have taken weeks if not months of advanced preparation to do so. And of course, how could explosives be placed in the tower without anyone noticing?
If it was not pre-planned then there are only two possible causes for its collapse that seem likely in my opinion.
1) Heat caused from combustion of 42,000 gallons of stored diesel fuel. Described in Popular Mechanics, Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."
*I find it hard to believe that the fuel line did not have an automatic or manual shutoff valve.*
2) Structural damage in WTC7 caused by flying debris from the Twin Towers which fell 7 hours earlier. I also see this as unlikely since there were other buildings closer to the Twin Towers that did not collapse and only sustained minor damage.
Some of my immediate questions that are yet to be answered would be .
1. If 9-11 was the biggest crime committed in America, shouldnt it merit the biggest criminal investigation?
2. If this single event caused the biggest loss of life to firemen, shouldnt it merit the biggest fire and arson investigation?
3. Never before has a steel framed skyscraper collapsed due to fire.
The architects of the Twin Towers claimed it would withstand multiple jumbo jet collisions.
Either the architects were wrong, or the buildings were brought down on purpose. Shouldnt there have been a bigger investigation to prevent such an engineering blunder in the future?
Regardless of whether you believe the official story about 9-11 or whether you still have unanswered questions, is this case really closed? Dont we owe it to the families of the victims to do everything possible to prevent this from happening again?
And a final thought .If you ask the average person, what is the most corrupt profession? Most folks would say either lawyers or politicians. Yet we blindly put our future and our childrens future in their hands everyday. We go to the ballot feeling as if we have done our democratic duty. But is that enough? Governments by nature seek power and profit. But to what end? Bush asked the citizens of America to be vigilant. There is a check and balance system expressly incorporated in the Constitution. Arent the citizens the most important check on our government? Isnt it right and correct to continually ask questions and seek truth even if it isnt popular or politically correct?
Some full length documentaries on 9-11 .
Loose Change 2nd Edition
Terror Storm
"There are those in America today who have come to depend absolutely on government for their security. And when government fails they seek to rectify that failure in the form of granting government more power. So, as government has failed to control crime and violence with the means given it by the Constitution, they seek to give it more power at the expense of the Constitution. But in doing so, in their willingness to give up their arms in the name of safety, they are really giving up their protection from what has always been the chief source of despotismgovernment. Lord Acton said 'power corrupts.' Surely then, if this is true, the more power we give the government the more corrupt it will become. And if we give it the power to confiscate our arms we also give up the ultimate means to combat that corrupt power. In doing so we can only assure that we will eventually be totally subject to it." - Ronald Reagan
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #1 on:
June 08, 2007, 11:56:04 PM »
From the GetofftheX forum:
Sadly, too many in the short time since 9/11 have, in their search for understanding, come to entertain and champion some of the most outlandish, lurid, infantile and offensive hypotheses ever to spread beyond the fevered ramblings of the maniacal. It is understandable for those who can not perceive of just how the physics of the events of 9/11 make sense, those who are ignorant will (more often than not) find the most comfortable perch to look at an event from rather than searching for truth that requires work to understand. We can be smacked in the face by events and instead of understanding the roots, we latch on to an emotion created by that event and blindly move on, learning nothing.
Human nature being what it is, some of these outrageous theories are predictable, but their spread lies not within the proof they say they have but within individual's general mistrust and poor opinion of the current administration and government in general. How do we combat this spreading meme that "9/11 was an inside job!", perhaps by starting with incontrovertible evidence.
A few weeks after 9/11, I had the thought (it seemed a little ghoulish to me at the time, necessary but ghoulish) that we should take all of the media generated that day and the days after by amateurs and pros and government agencies and compile it in DVD form and make it available to the public for the cost of the manufacture and compilation only. At the time I felt that even though I had seen enough of the 9/11 footage to last me till I died, I was afraid that visual evidence of this tragedy would be sanitized by the media for future generations, kind of like they were doing to movies and other things at the times, removing any reference to the WTC or it's image. I suppose my fears of that we wouldn't be allowed as TV viewers to see it ever again were pretty unfounded, but I still believe the idea has merit and today it would be useful as a tool to correct the distortions perpetrated by the ignorant and the deceitful.
With all that said, the intention of this post and future posts in this thread is to lay out the facts of 9/11 in visual format in a way that (hopefully) won't or can't be misconstrued by "Truthers" to advance the inaccuracies they purport to be truth in regards to the events of that day. I will start this post with a bunch of videos I found on YouTube that I had never seen before from 9/11, they offer a number of different views of the attacks and the aftermath, some of which completely blow a number of "Truther" arguments out of the water, but it is a little hard for them to see beyond their own agenda, or even look at the next video in the queue of videos related to the one they just posted. If any of you have additions please post them, but know this, they will be vetted to best of the abilities of those assembled here, which is an incredible array of dudes of who have way too much knowledge and time on their hands not to be able to debunk 99% of the BS floating on the internet concerning 9/11. Every admission will be looked at fairly, and those found wanting will be dumped, simple as that, if you have a problem with that, come into the locker room and bitch at me, and we can argue it there. Hell, I may even let you reiterate your case there, if you can convince me of it's merit. I'm a pussy like that.
So, let the truth begin!
First, let's point you all to THE clearing house for debunking the BS surrounding the WTC.
Now, for something that addresses one of the other attacks, this is an excellent amateur explanation of the attack on the Pentagon using data and images available on the web. The most gratifying part is it comes from one of the most unlikely sources, a web site and forum dedicated to UFO discussion and evidence called abovetopsecret. Trust me, this is worth the visit.
Remove the #'s around the link, I don't want this to become a direct link that might lead some of the other less sensible members of that site over here.
And now, several different compilations of video that don't get seen much on TV or anywhere else, for that matter. These are all from YouTube.
Here is an video that expands on part of one of the ones above where they are in the lobby of WTC 1 when 2 collapses, partially trapping them, listen for the sound of the fire extinguisher as they enter and think about what the camera man says he could have filmed as they walked in, but didn't.
This is a little more of that video with stuff cut from the first.
Another different collection of the impacts.
Here is video from Shanksville after the crash of United 93, the "Truthers" want to use it to show how there is no wreckage, but in fact you can clearly see the area is absolutely littered with debris, but the remains of the plane that you can immediately see are small because the plane was pulverized by it's high speed, high angle of impact with the ground. There were in fact larger pieces of wreckage found but they were scattered over a wide area due to the force of the impact.
I hope some of this helps answer any questions you may have had but didn't want to voice, or helps you "correct" any true believers you might cross paths with. This was a truly unprecedented event in human history, nothing quite like it had ever happened and God willing never again. It makes sense that people can't wrap their brains around it, but approaching six years on, we can not let the their lack of understanding steer public opinion.
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #2 on:
June 09, 2007, 02:03:00 AM »
When do we get to UFOs and Area 51?
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #3 on:
June 09, 2007, 08:51:45 AM »
Dog Brian approached me privately with some of his ideas before starting to post here. I told him I found some of them quite fringe (and still do!
) but decided to clear him to post them. I forget the actual words or who said it, but the gist of what one of the Founding Fathers said when explaining the free speech of the First Amendment was that the solution for wrong speech was right speech. Sure we're private sector here, but the principal is the same.
Apparently a lot of people are entertaining strange notions like these, so before they become part of American folklore, its time to shine the light of logic and truth on them. And who knows, we may learn a thing or two from Dog Brian as well-- for example one of the URLs he posted seemed from a reliable site and was an interesting review of a book about the CIA intervention in Iran at the time of the Arbenz regime in 1953-54. I didn't agree with everything it said, but it was well worth the time to read.
Power User
Posts: 108
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #4 on:
June 09, 2007, 09:29:01 AM »
It's not a theory. It's utter, pure, Rosie O'Donnell/Michael Moore, et al drivel. What frightens me most is that they would be somebody's primary source of credible information.
Last Edit: June 09, 2007, 09:40:24 AM by Cold War Scout
"This is a war, and we are soldiers. Death can come for us at any time, in any place." ~ Morpheus
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #5 on:
June 09, 2007, 02:46:10 PM »
Quote from: Crafty_Dog on June 09, 2007, 08:51:45 AM
Dog Brian approached me privately with some of his ideas before starting to post here. I told him I found some of them quite fringe (and still do!
) but decided to clear him to post them. I forget the actual words or who said it, but the gist of what one of the Founding Fathers said when explaining the free speech of the First Amendment was that the solution for wrong speech was right speech. Sure we're private sector here, but the principal is the same.
Apparently a lot of people are entertaining strange notions like these, so before they become part of American folklore, its time to shine the light of logic and truth on them. And who knows, we may learn a thing or two from Dog Brian as well-- for example one of the URLs he posted seemed from a reliable site and was an interesting review of a book about the CIA intervention in Iran at the time of the Arbenz regime in 1953-54. I didn't agree with everything it said, but it was well worth the time to read.
He had 1 good link.....Out of a mountain of garbage.
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #6 on:
June 09, 2007, 05:51:07 PM »
Coincidentally enough it is the only one I have looked at so far
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #7 on:
June 09, 2007, 09:40:54 PM »
(Go to the site for the pictures)
April 8, 2007
SEEING THE UNSEEN, Part 2
(This is the long-overdue second part of an examination of the value of critical thinking. Part 1 is here. The final installment will deal with the issue of Global Warming)
Occam's Razor is the idea that when confronted with competing theories that explain certain data equally well, the simplest one is usually correct. It's called Occam's Razor, and not Occam's Hypothesis, or Occam's Theorem, or Occam's Bit of Useful Advice, because it is a razor -- it cuts cleanly and with great efficiency. And though it pains me to say so, this culture is in desperate need of a shave.
I want to forgo the niceties of the hot towel and go straight for the jugular on this one. My goal here is not to bust any of these four conspiracy theories; that has all been done much more effectively elsewhere. What I am trying to do here is to build a chain of evidence to show a progressively deteriorating epidemic of world-wide insanity, of truly diseased thinking -- not just a misunderstanding or difference of opinion but real, diagnosable mental illness. I want to get to that disease in a minute -- and the cause of it too -- but first let's examine what some people claim to believe in and the mountains of sand one has to carry in order to bury one's head so deep.
Man on the Moon
Several years ago, I was having lunch with some co-workers and the subject of the Loch Ness Monster came up. They seemed genuinely amazed that I was so certain that it did not exist. I pointed out that an air-breathing plesiosaur would have to surface for air so often that its 'reality' would be as much in doubt as that of whales or dolphins. Also, there are essentially no fish in Loch Ness, so it has nothing to eat. The most famous photo of it is a known fake. It's a no-brainer. Not that I couldn't be convinced I was wrong, I added. But I would want to pet the damn thing, or at least stand on the carcass with my hands clasped in the air.
This shocking position got me an invitation to meet "Joe" (might be his real name; I frankly don't remember). Joe was a friend of one of my colleagues. Joe, I was told, was one of the most well-respected paranormal researchers in the world, and as it turned out, he lived a few blocks from me.
Would I be willing to debate him?
I said yes, of course -- and for a reason that I later came to regret. I said yes not because I felt some need to set this guy right, but rather because I hoped he might have something really interesting, something that might cause me to change my mind.
I met him at his apartment: the kind of musty, cluttered, book-filled room I had seen before and come to expect. There were two others in the room. We shook hands. He was a nice enough guy.
"So whatcha got?"
He pulls out a videotape. Buzz is holding the flag. Neil takes a picture. Buzz lets go of the flag pole -- and the flag waves! In the breeze! Fake! Fake! The mask slips!
You ever played golf, Joe? I ask. He has not. I tell him that the flag pole is very long, very thin, like the pin on a green. Touch that and let it go and it will wobble precisely the same way, like a giant guitar string. It's got nothing to do with air.
What else have you got?
He's got stills from the lunar surface. Where are the stars? Huh? Skeptic Boy? I thought you could see stars in space. Why don't we see any in the picture? I ask him to imagine he is on a dark road in the middle of a black night. A car is approaching with its high beams glaring. What does the grille look like?
He doesn't get the analogy. I have to explain that you can't see the grille because the lights are too bright. Your eyes (or the camera) stop down -- the iris constricts -- so that you can comfortably view the bright lights. Likewise, on the moon, the camera is exposed to see the bright lunar landscape, or the brilliant blue Earth. The stars are too dim to register. There are no stars visible in virtually any photo taken in earth orbit, either -- not behind the shuttle, or the space station.
This is a sign that it is not a fake, because while it is logical, it's also somewhat unexpected. A hoaxer would almost certainly add stars. All of the paintings that preceded the actual landing show a lunar sky ablaze with stars. This was something no one realized until we got there.
He had scores of criticisms, all of which were specious and which have been refuted in excruciating detail. I'll spare you the half-hour spent looking at lighting differences and the position of suspicious shadows and cut to the chase here.
Watch Buzz walk, I tell him. See the dust at his feet. Look at that carefully. See how it sprays like water? Very fine dust spraying like a water skier's wake? In an atmosphere -- like on a sound stage -- very fine dust is lifted by the air into a dust cloud, and we all know what a little dust cloud looks like. What you are seeing when you watch those dust trails are very small particles moving in a low-gravity vacuum. I tell him -- not that he believes me -- that it is a tougher engineering challenge to make an area the size of a movie lot into a perfect vacuum than it is to actually go to the moon.
Now it's my turn to ask some questions, and here's where it goes from the ridiculous to the sublime: I was there at Cape Kennedy for the launch of Apollo 13. Is he saying I am lying about this whole moon mission conspiracy? I and millions of others who stood there and saw those Saturn V's climb into the sky?
Of course not, says Joe. They actually launched. The astronauts just stayed in earth orbit the whole time.
I see. So we have the technical expertise to build a 40-story rocket that can produce millions of pounds of thrust. We can build capsules and lunar landers that function in zero-G. We have the means and the will to put these massive objects into Earth orbit, keep them up there for two weeks, but the additional 3-4% of the total launch energy needed to send this package to the moon is so obviously beyond our technical skill that the whole thing must be a hoax?
I'm sorry, that's the thinking of someone who is mentally ill. There is something deeper at work there.
That "something" is different than someone who "believes" in UFO's or the Loch Ness Monster. Such people may be short on critical reasoning, but the emotional force that drives them is a desire for wonder and the magical. Many have remarked that this is, indeed, almost a religious impulse. I've wanted to see a real-live flying saucer my entire life. Likewise, if Nessie really existed, what an incredible sight that would be; to look upon the last surviving dinosaur in the flesh! But a videotape of a standing wave shot from five miles away does not outweigh the whole air-breather / no fish evidence. It does not come close to outweighing it. And so I reluctantly throw Nessie back into the superstition bin from whence she came.
But these denialists -- the Moon Hoaxers and the 9/11 "Truthers" -- these are a different breed. And they are cut from precisely the same cloth. That is to say, they suffer from the same disease: an unwillingness to face reality and its consequences.
My evening with Joe was very illuminative. After the moon hoax came the following, depending on your point of view:
Alien blobs surrounding the Space Shuttle OR a negative image videotape of a blurry object at the bottom of an aquarium.
UFO squadrons flying in close formation OR distant geese at the limit of a digital zoom slowed to 5 frames per second.
A giant, manned American space station in orbit around Mars OR a still frame from NASA's 1976 Viking animation.
Otherworldly 'rods' darting invisibly through the skies of our planet OR individual frames of a large insect leaving a blurry video trail as it whizzes past the lens.
Every time I would identify one of these great mysteries, Joe had the same response: okay, but what about this! No fight, no defense -- nothing. And then we'd be on to some new blur or smudge that proved, incontrovertibly, that this "reality" we live in is a giant lie, and that we are all victims of Dark Forces moving beyond our control or even our awareness... and that while the sleepwalking sheeple go on with their corporate-controlled lives, the mysterious wheels of the Shadow Government turn inexorably onward, crushing those brave few individuals who are on to the whole horrid plot like so many ants. There is a word for this diseased mental state.
As I was leaving Joe's, he said something I'm sure he thought was very funny. He said, "Man, I'll bet a guy like you thinks Lee Harvey Oswald really shot JFK."
Of course he shot JFK, Joe. Who do you think did it? The American Beef Council? Joe looked at me the way I had been looking at him. That is to say, he simply could not process that I could hold such a belief in my head. You're serious? I'm dead serious. I recommended Case Closed, by Gerald Posner -- without question the best piece of critical reasoning, research and logic I have ever read, bar none. I suspect he did not follow my advice. Books like that are bad for his business. Man, you're out there, said Joe. You know, the sad thing is, I'm starting to believe he is right.
A quick aside...
Back around 1989 or so, I had just moved to LA and was working the night shift as a limousine driver. I had a miserable little apartment in North Hollywood. I had heard of a book that had published the autopsy pictures of President Kennedy, and how it contained compelling evidence of a conspiracy. It was called Best Evidence and I bought it.
It doesn't rain often in Los Angeles, but it rained the night I read that book. Its author, David Lifton, claimed that Kennedy was shot from the front, but then the body was secretly taken from Air Force One to Walter Reed Army Hospital where extensive surgery 'reversed' the trajectory of the wounds to make it look like poor patsy Oswald was the real assassin.
When I finally got to the payoff a shot of electricity went through me. I realized that I was now in possession of such history-changing information that I distinctly recall getting up, opening the door and peering out into the rain to see if I was being watched. I felt, truly, for one half-hour that my life might be in danger. I wish I could say I am making this up.
That sense of uncovering deep layers of ancient cover-ups is what drove the sales of The DaVinci Code. There, too, a web of truths, half-truths and outright fabrication spun a story that left the reader with a palpable sense of awe. It made you feel important, like you knew something absolutely essential that very few others ever were privileged to know.
Now most normal people do not look at life from within a pit of failure and despair. Our lives are measured by small successes -- like raising children, serving in the military, doing volunteer work at your church -- or just doing the right thing in a thousand small but important ways, like returning money if someone makes you too much change.
These are simply the small, ordinary milestones of a life of value. They give you a sense of identity.
But if I didn't have that sense of identity rooted in my own small achievements, I wonder how likely it would have been for me to grab onto that sense of sudden empowerment, of being an initiate in some arcane club of hidden wisdom. I wonder what might have happened to me if being the Holder of Secret Knowledge had been my only source of self-esteem; the one redeeming landmark in a life of isolation and failure. Indeed, I wonder what power such a worldview would have over me if I could believe that behind the scenes lurked vast and unknowable dark forces -- forces that could topple a president and perhaps even explain why a person of my deep, vast and bountiful talents was not doing a whole lot better in life?
I wonder what might have happened to me then.
Because I did not need to believe in Giant Wheels of Conspiracy grinding John F. Kennedy to dust, I was relieved and not a little embarrassed when I finally read Case Closed. It was -- quite vividly -- like opening a window in a musty, cluttered, book-filled room and feeling the cool breeze of reason and logic air out the mind.
This is not the place for me to debate whether or not Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin that day. That would take an entire book, exhaustively researched, with extensive footnoting and reference to primary sources. There is such a book, it is called Case Closed, and as I said, it performs its function better than any book I have ever read.
I am more interested in the psychology of someone who believes in these conspiracy theories. I exempt people who have only heard one side of the story, as I did. Sadly, skepticism doesn't sell as well as hysteria. With regards to The View, ABC and Disney would rather count their ad money than waste potential revenues placing the truth for sale. If this offends you as much as it does me, you may make your purchases and plan your vacations accordingly.
Intellectually honest people, people without a deep, vested emotional need to believe the worst, are usually relieved to hear the facts that demolish superstitions like the Bermuda Triangle and the Loch Ness Monster. While there may be disappointment at the loss of an unseen world, people who have chosen to live in reality find comfort in the fact that reality is, in fact, made up of the real and not the wished for.
No, what fascinates me is the emotional motive of people who, presented with overwhelming evidence that the events that transpired on November 22nd, 1963 or September 11th, 2001 really happened exactly the way it appeared, continue to spin ever more elaborate webs in order to get to a place they need to be emotionally. Who are you going to believe: them or your own lying eyes?
All of this conspiracy nonsense comes after the fact. What we saw on those days was clear and vital and unmistakably obvious. In the case of the Kennedy assassination we are asked to believe -- against all physical evidence to the contrary -- what a few professional witnesses recall for pay ten or twenty or thirty years after the fact. Some guy who claims to see a puff of smoke on the grassy knoll is now a world-wide celebrity and not just some dude with time on his hands on a November afternoon. (And don't be deterred by the fact that a musket firing black powder was the last firearm that emitted "a puff of smoke;" perhaps Kennedy was murdered by a re-animated Stonewall Jackson. Prove it didn't happen!)
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #8 on:
June 09, 2007, 09:41:32 PM »
I've met a number of these people. I know this is harsh, but I'm sick of watching the damage they are doing to this civilization: these people are, to a man, complete losers. Losers. They are desperate and sad people who need to believe in some dark secret to give meaning to their lives.
In Case Closed Gerald Posner points out one thing that all the Kennedy conspiracy books have in common: a complete disregard for the main actor on that day, namely Lee Harvey Oswald. In all of Lifton's theories about stolen corpses and secret autopsies, he only devotes a page or two to Oswald. He is a peripheral player. A patsy. Some make him out to be a hero who was framed.
Posner, by contrast, devotes almost half his book to Oswald. This is the heart of it, because once you fully appreciate what a pathetic loser Oswald was, the entire day makes crystalline sense.
Who in the general public knows that Oswald tried to defect to the Soviet Union, was rejected, and slit his wrists in a Soviet hotel when he learned he was to be thrown out of the country? Who knows that the Russians reluctantly granted him asylum, shipped him to the boonies, gave him an obscure factory job making television sets, and that when his fifteen minutes of novelty were up, he desperately lied and cajoled the Soviets into letting him return to the US? Who can read about his disappointment at the lack of press coverage upon his return to America, or his desperate attempts at attention with Fair Play for Cuba, or his self-documented assassination attempt on Texas anti-communist General Edwin Walker, without seeing a pathological narcissistic loser just waiting to show the world how exceptional he really was?
Once you know Lee Harvey Oswald, you realize that he would have pulled the trigger on Cantinflas or Bozo the Clown if either one of them had been parading beneath his window that November day. It is so obvious, so straightforward, so simple... so inevitable.
But no. Instead we have to have teams of assassins, and the purchased cooperation of dozens, if not hundreds of people, all to commit a ghastly crime and pull one over on an entire nation. Posner posits at the end of his book (and I agree completely) that what drives the conspiracy idea is the intolerable belief that a lone wacko can change history. On one side of the scale, writes Posner, you have the handsome, charismatic, Leader of the Free World, and on the other side a scrawny, pathetic loser. The mind wants to add weight to Oswald's side, to give the horror some meaning. But it just isn't so. And the lie you create to meet this emotional need is more damaging to the country than the assassination of a beloved President could ever be.
I'll tell you something. These conspiracy theorists that ignore that miserable, pathetic, self-aggrandizing egomaniac named Lee Harvey Oswald, or glorify him as a patsy and a hero, do so because deep down inside they realize something unpleasant about Lee Harvey Oswald and themselves.
They are Oswald.
Look! Up in the Sky!
Some people see the Moon Hoax, Kennedy, 9/11 conspiracies and all the rest of that garbage as separate little fiefdoms of harmless lunacy. But I do not.
They all have one element in common, and it is a deadly poison which we must address if we want to regain our social health.
If you believe the lunar landing was a hoax, then you believe that your government was willing and able to lie to you in order to gain prestige it did not earn. You are willing to believe that there are thousands and thousands of engineers, astronauts, technicians, and so on, who are willing to lie on government orders: lie to their friends and family, lie to the press, lie to you. And all of them -- tens if not hundreds of thousands of them -- take their secret to the grave.
I know a lot of engineers. They are some of the most scrupulously honest people I know. They have to be -- their work depends on it. To believe that thousands of these people can lie again and again through their entire lives tells me a great deal about the person that holds such a belief.
If you further believe that the Kennedy Assassination was not the unlucky intersection of a parade route and a commie loser with a rifle, but rather a coup d'etat orchestrated by Johnson or Castro or the Mob, then you believe that your government is willing to kill (or at least cover up the killing of) a man -- the duly elected President of the United States -- in order for some shadow figure to gain power.
What military man could order such a thing? I am also honored to know many people who have served this country in uniform. To a person, I find they would try to save the life of the President, no matter how much they despised him (or her). They love the office. They love the country. That is why they serve.
There's only one kind of person that can believe a group of U.S. military officers would follow such an order: people who don't know any U.S. military officers. What does that say about how they themselves are wired? Colonel, I want you to shoot the President. That order comes direct from the Vice President!
Well, I'll get on it right away! I
t's ludicrous. It's absurd. It's widely believed. And if you believe the government was willing to do that, then you believe they are willing to do this:
You know what these are? They're Chemtrails.
Wake up, sheeple!!
Chemtrails are one of two things:
A. They are slow-acting toxins dispersed from aerial refueling tankers designed to spread carcinogens and other lethal agents among the general population, with the goal of reducing the world's population by 85%. They are dispersed in criss-cross patterns or a series of regular lines in order to obtain maximum coverage.
B. They are the product of relatively modern, high-bypass turbofans operating at altitudes where water vapor is condensed and freezes into what is essentially an artificial cirrus cloud, which naturally follow the invisible airways and VOR turning points that make up the US Airspace system. They are Contrails.
Millions of your countrymen are choosing A. Millions. Think about that, and weep. Think that there are people out there right now -- people two cars over in traffic, or ahead of you in the check-out counter -- who believe that our government is spraying high-altitude poisons designed to kill us all. That men and women -- thousands of men and women -- go to work every day, refilling the tankers with deadly chemicals, or flying top-secret missions in broad daylight, indiscriminately spraying death down on their drinking buddies, fellow church-goers, co-workers, cousins and wives and children. What kind of person--. Excuse me. I'm sorry. I don't do this often but I just can't continue this calmly:
I think it's high time -- and way, waaaay past high time -- to start pushing back against these kinds of diseased philosophies and the fact that they are getting traction because no one seems willing to point at them and go:
Starting with the 747 in 1970, jetliners began to employ a very different kind of jet engine. The first generation of jets -- the ones that produced the thin, narrow contrails we used to see -- employed what is called a turbojet (or "pure jet") engine. These are much narrower engines than you usually see today. All of the air that a turbojet encounters goes inside the engine, where it is compressed, injected with fuel and ejected out the rear. But the 747 pioneered a radical new design, called a turbofan (or "high-bypass") engine. Just about anything you are likely to get on these days uses these high-bypass engines. They are called high-bypass because they are much wider than an old turbojet. That is because most of the air that enormous fan takes in does not go into the engine at all, but rather around the outside of it. It is, essentially, a huge propeller powered by the ten or twenty percent of the total airflow that actually enters the engine and drives the turbine shaft as it exits under very high pressure.
The net result is that a turbofan engine moves a much larger volume of air than a turbojet. That makes it more powerful, more fuel efficient and a lot more quiet... they have that hum rather than the crackling roar of the older turbojet. They are quieter because they shroud that hot air inside an invisible tube of cooler air that has gone around -- not through -- the engine core. This massive volume of heated and cooled air produces these newer, thicker, more persistent contrails, as you can see here:
If you happen to be one of those people who, like me, flatten their face against the window for five hours rather than reading CROSSFIRE on the way home for Thanksgiving, you will often see these jets producing these contrails with your own eyes. Those jets are not filled with poison chemicals or equipped with spraying nozzles, but rather are filled with other people watching your jet produce the same hi-bypass contrails.
So either that explains it, or the whole thing is a high altitude, crop-dusting scheme designed to chemically poison a pernicious pest, namely, you and me. Now you tell me which one seems a little more likely to you, and I will in return advise you whether or not you need to seek professional psychiatric help.
(You might be relieved to know that there is hope on the Chemtrail front. As it happens, "a rescue effort of neutralizing and transmuting the toxic elements in chemtrails was initiated in early 2002 with the introduction of a device called the "chembuster" which will transmute the atmospheric energy envelope from one polarity which allow chemtrails to persist, to another polarity which will cause chemtrails to disperse and fall apart. The proliferation of chembusters around the country led to another dramatic development in early 2004 - legions of huge air elemental beings called "Sylphs" by ancient Greeks made their presence known by assuming cloud shapes that often look like wispy winged angels or animal forms who set about "cleaning up" the skies of chemtrail toxins by engulfing and transmuting chemtrail toxins into non-toxic substances.")
Well! I feel better already!
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #9 on:
June 09, 2007, 09:44:22 PM »
9/11 and The Birth of a Notion
Of course, all of this is just the soup for the main course.
Recently, Rosie O'Donnell said on national television that she believes 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government. Well, that's why we went through the steps above. If you believe that the government lied about the moon landing, you can believe they lied about killing JFK. If they lied about JFK, then they can lie about chemtrails. And if they are willing to poison the entire population with aerial spraying, what are a few thousand people in four airliners and a couple of buildings?
Rosie O'Donnell making such a claim on a major network is a national disgrace. The fact that much of the audience cheered and applauded is nothing less than a national catastrophe.
To her, and to her audience, it is taken as granted that the government is capable of such things. As if "the government" was operated by cyborgs grown in Haliburton vats, rather than by well-meaning and patriotic people that love this country.
"This is the first time in history that fire has ever melted steel," she said. This is a statement of such pristine and perfect idiocy that it surely must be emblazoned in stone across the entrance to the Physics Imbecile wing of the Moron Museum of Natural History. But mastery of physics and engineering requires some intelligence, some perseverance and some discipline: none of which are in evidence in this buffoon. Everything is a conspiracy to a mind this far gone. The 15 British sailors kidnapped at sea? All a plan by our evil (but incompetent!) government to get the next war it so desperately needs. "Gulf of Tonkin! Google It, people!" she said on national TV. And I will, Rosie. I promise. As soon as I finish googling MAD COW DISEASE.
I will make the point yet again because I believe it is the crux of the issue: what kind of moral universe do you have to inhabit to be able to believe that your own people -- airline personnel, demolition experts, police and security forces, faked witnesses and all the rest -- are capable of such a thing? How much hate for your own society do you have to carry in order to live in such a desolate and ridiculous mental hell? What psychoses must a mind be riddled with in order to negate what was perfectly obvious and instead believe a theory of such monumental fantasy? How much pure constant hatred does that take? What, in short, is the miserable black hole of self-loathing that drives a person like Rosie O'Donnell and millions like her?
You know who I blame for this pathetic state of affairs? I blame Leonard Nimoy. I remember watching In Search Of... as a teen and always being just a little disappointed that there was so little -- you know, proof -- in any one of those episodes. In Search of Atlantis, In Search of Ghosts, In Search of Ancient Astronauts, In Search of the Bermuda Triangle, In Search of UFO's..., In Search of, in other words, every conceivable hoax and superstition on the face of the planet. And I watched it in spite of the lack of actual proof and I believed it all because it presented one thin string of opinion and falsehood cloaked as "evidence" and no one rebutted a word of it.
"We're just asking questions" was the official, voice-over disclaimer. You hear that too from the 9/11 Truth crowd when confronted with the lunacy of their claims. We're just asking questions... Well, in that vein I'd like to ask some questions myself. Is Michael Moore a serial pedophile? I'm just asking, and I'm sure a lot of my readers would just like to have some questions answered. I heard that Rosie O'Donnell ate a baby at a Satanic Ritual once -- is that true? Can you please provide the evidence that this did not in fact happen? Thanks. Who has murdered more hookers: Bill Maher or Charlie Sheen? Come on, you can't tell me there's no smoke there. I just want a possible explanation...
So that's what it has come to now. We deserve better. God damn it, we do.
In the middle of all this laziness, this lack of rigor, this mush -- a few small lights still twinkle in the darkness.
I think the entire nation owes a deep and profound debt of gratitude to the editors of Popular Mechanics magazine. Their debunking of the 9/11 conspiracy was not only first-rate journalism. It was an act of vital national importance. It was heroic.
But Popular Mechanics?! That sort of article should have been front page, above the fold in The New York Times, The LA Times, Washington Post, and all of the other 'media watchdogs' that are -- or so I am assured -- determined to safeguard the republic by presenting the truth.
There are only two small mites I might add to that monumental work.
This whole ball of earwax got started when a French author (by way of gratitude, I presume, for the hundreds of thousands of Americans killed defending his country from a tyranny they themselves were unwilling to fight) claimed that the hole in the Pentagon was far too small to have been caused by a jet. It must have been a missile!
All of these 9/11 conspiracy sites have museum-grade idiots stating what 'obviously' happens at velocities and temperatures that they are flat-out incapable of understanding. Not only are these people too stupid to understand the physics involved with what they are bloviating about -- they are too stupid to realize that they are too stupid.
An airplane is a hollow, extremely light-weight tube of aluminum, cunningly designed to lift not one ounce more than is necessary for safe flight in rough weather. An airplane is as fragile as a hollow-boned bird, and for the same reasons. The Pentagon, on the other hand, is a fortress, and as a matter of one of the very few pieces of good luck on that awful day, the side hit by American Flight 77 happened to be the only one of the five sides that had been recently reinforced to withstand a truck bomb attack.
Now if you have ever seen a bird fly into a window pane, you may realize that it does not leave a nice bird-shaped hole in the window. That is because in each historical conflict between the ground and an airplane, the ground has won every time.
Here's something to prove the point far better than any words could ever do. It is a video of an F-4 Phantom being launched into a reinforced wall at over 500 mph. The Phantom is a big airplane -- not as big as a jetliner, certainly, but far sturdier in construction. When you watch this video, you will see that massive-looking fighter jet simply vaporize into a plume of aluminum dust. Nothing comes through the other side. It. Just. Disappears.
My other small contribution -- which may be widely stated, although I have not seen it -- is to grant this revolting premise for a moment and envision the consequences.
The 9/11 Truthers claim that the twin towers were brought down by controlled demolition. Okay.
Have you ever seen a controlled demolition? Shows like this are all over The Discovery Channel. Do these people realize how all of the insulation and paneling must be stripped away from the support beams? Do they not understand how these beams must be cut open and the explosives placed with great care? Have they not any idea of the amount of time this takes -- months -- and the forest of wires that runs through the structure to the detonating mechanism? Have they given no thought -- none? -- to what an enormous job this is, and how much work goes into getting these explosives exactly where they need to be?
Apparently not. They just figure someone leaves a suitcase somewhere, I guess.
Anyone who has ever -- ever -- seen what is required to bring down a building of that size knows that the site is a disaster area of det cord, pulled paneling, and huge bundles of explosives taped to the structural columns across many floors. Has no one considered that this all had to be started after everyone went home on Monday night and before people reported for work the next day? On multiple floors of two of the busiest public spaces in the world?
No one noticed this on Tuesday morning? Hey Jim, what do you suppose that huge bundle of plastic explosives is doing there where the water cooler used to be? And where do those wires go? Well, must be some logical explanation. Let's get some coffee and bagels.
Now you're talking!
Of all the people in those buildings that morning, no one -- no one -- saw any wires anywhere? No one asked why the drywall was torn down and replaced with grey stuff duct-taped into place? None of the firemen rushing into those burning towers, checking all those floors for survivors -- none of them noticed the building was rigged to explode? That it might possibly be worth a small call on the radio?
My father was interred at Arlington National Cemetery in 2002. I will never forget that day. It changed my life, and it was the event that started me writing here at Eject! Eject! Eject!
The man who coordinated that service was on a hill about a half-mile from that side of the Pentagon on the morning of September 11th, 2001. He told me that they had been informed that something was going on in New York that morning. Then he heard something that he said he thought was a missile attack -- a roar so loud and so far beyond a normal jet sound that he looked up at that exact moment expecting to die.
What he saw emerge from the trees overhead, perhaps a hundred feet above him, was American Airlines Flight 77 as it went by in a silver blur, engines screaming in a power dive as it hit the near side of the Pentagon. He told me -- to my face -- that body parts had rained down all over that sacred field. Just like red hail on a summer day. Those body parts are buried in a special place at the base of that hill.
Now. If Rosie O'Donnell and the rest of that Lunatic Brigade is right and I am wrong, then that man -- that insignificant Army chaplain and his Honor Guard of forty men -- are all liars. He is lying to me for Halliburton and Big Oil. That Chaplain -- and all of those decent, patriotic young men in the Honor Guard, and all the commuters on the roads who saw an American Airlines jet instead of a missile -- all of those people are liars and accessories to murder. And all of the firefighters who went into buildings rigged to explode were pre-recruited suicide martyrs dying for George W. Bush's plans for world conquest. Remember: NOTHING that happened on September 11th needed any more explanation than what was obvious from the second impact... namely, that Islamic terrorists hijacked four American aircraft and flew three of them into their targets. To try to convince people of missile attacks and rigged explosives and mystery jets is nothing more than an intentional assault on reason and common sense, one that damns the innocent and protects those mass murderers with our blood on their hands.
It's an obscenity. It's a filthy, God-damned, criminal obscenity. Nothing less.
I work as a TV editor on SUNDAY MORNING SHOOTOUT. Oliver Stone was our guest several months ago. When asked if he regretted anything in his career, he had the audacity to say he regretted not putting THIS IS A WORK OF FICTION on the top of his movie JFK. He's a dramatist, he said. His job is to tell a story. He went on to say -- and I remember I gasped when I heard it -- that the problem in Dealy Plaza that day was due to "a failure of perception." That's a direct quote.
A failure of perception. What else can that mean but that these ignorant people who were actually on the scene failed to perceive what he so clearly sees thirty years after the fact from a mansion in Beverly Hills?
Now if Oliver Stone were just a garden-variety Narcissistic Personality Disorder sufferer, I'd feel sorry for the man. But he is foisting his disease on an entire population, and using his great skill, he has helped convince another generation to share his own personal pathologies. And he is far from alone.
Think about it: The Manchurian Candidate originally featured Communist Chinese as the brainwashers. Now in the remake it's The Manchurian Corporation. Syriana shows Big Oil and the CIA assassinating poor honest Arab leaders who only want to bring democracy to their people. Did this ever actually happen?
Who cares! I'm a dramatist!
In XXX: State of the Union, prisoners and murderers must be set free to defend the country against the real threat: the Secretary of Defense. In Shooter it's up to a lone hero to assassinate the evil oil-drinking killers that make up the US government. The Constant Gardner has Big Pharmaceuticals testing deadly products on poor Africans as sort of cheap, PETA-proof lab rats. What does it matter to a bunch of dramatists that drug companies are our best defense against the plagues that reap entire generations of lives? That the CIA is not a band of rogue assassins with nothing better to do than pick off our own leaders but rather a hard-working group of dedicated men and women who work without fame or fortune or Beverly Hills mansions, day in and day out, trying to find that little thread that keeps millions of us alive and healthy and blissfully -- willfully, in the case of these dramatists -- stupid and naive?
And it goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
If it's not the the government then it's the corporations... always the bad guys. Always guilty. Always fat white men ready to kill anyone for money.
Have these dramatists ever -- ever? -- run a business? Have they any clue at all how much effort goes into keeping the french fry station at McDonald's adequately staffed, to say nothing about pulling together a few thousand people in spectacular acts of mass murder? Do they have any idea that the honest human men and women who work for the government are anything more than plot points in their own bitter narratives? Is there no end to the evidence -- as if more evidence was needed -- that we are daily led to believe the worst about our government, our businesses and our country by self-centered psychotics who understand nothing but the absolute imperative to glorify themselves at the expense of everyone and everything they share this civilization with?
And people believe this. Look at Rosie's audience.
How much poison can you put into your veins before you are too weak to walk? Too weak to breed? And how much more of this poison I.V. drip is needed until you die? How many of these cultural suicide pills are we going to swallow before we start to wake up to the fact that dramatists -- not the government -- are going to kill us all?
When you look at what these people ask you to believe, to justify that naked, awful emptiness in their own souls and the horrible damage their lies are doing to our civilization -- well, it's enough to make you want to take Occam's Razor out of its golden box and slit their miserable throats with it.
UPDATE! Rocket scientist and professional psychiatrist DR SANITY has written an exceptional column on the clinical nature of these sad but dangerous people here. Needless to say, her professional opinion and conclusions are orders of magnitude more powerful and compelling than mine. Highly recommended for those who want to know more about why some people need to believe the patently absurd.
If you have the courage to go through the looking glass and discover how I know JFK was murdered by The American Beef Council, you can learn the horrible truth here. Be very wary of the guy on the extreme right (there are no coincidences!); he's often been accused of being a CIA operative. (From GRAZING, circa 1994 (L-R) Brian Bradley, Peter Hurtgen, Alex Campbell, Eric Laing, Bill Whittle) Anyone interested in discussing any of this can do so over here. As for me, I'm always happy to hear from you directly.
Posted by Proteus at April 8, 2007 11:02 PM
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #10 on:
June 09, 2007, 09:52:17 PM »
Dr. Sanity
Shining a psychological spotlight on a few of the insanities of life
Monday, April 16, 2007
Are Americans taking over the number one spot as the most paranoid and delusional people in the world? Are our conspiracy theories more insane than the psychotic conspiracy theories that are at the heart of Arab identity in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere? And just today there is this piece from Pravda, via Tim Blair highlighting certain Russian fantasies detached from reality.
Let me just cut to the chase and admit that paranoia and delusional thinking are equal-opportunity, multiracial, multicultural and gender-indifferent psychological processes. And, they are so easy and convenient to use, that they are accessible even to the youngest of children or the most physiologically disabled adult mind.
I linked to Bill Whittle's excellent piece about American paranoia and conspiracy at Eject!Eject!Eject! in yesterday's Carnival, but it is far too serious a piece not to discuss at some length.
In it, Whittle shreds the delusions of many Americans into confetti, and he makes some very keen psychological observations about those who willfully cling to the conspiracy theories derived from those delusions. One theory examined under the light of reason is the belief by many that the 1969 Apollo Moon Landing was a government hoax (I have had my share of people ask me about that one); another is the JFK assassination conspiracies; and more recently there is the troubling slippage from the surly bonds of reality into the nether regions of 9/11 "truthiness":
I see. So we have the technical expertise to build a 40-story rocket that can produce millions of pounds of thrust. We can build capsules and lunar landers that function in zero-G. We have the means and the will to put these massive objects into Earth orbit, keep them up there for two weeks, but the additional 3-4% of the total launch energy needed to send this package to the moon is so obviously beyond our technical skill that the whole thing must be a hoax?
Im sorry, thats the thinking of someone who is mentally ill. There is something deeper at work there.
That something is different than someone who believes in UFOs or the Loch Ness Monster. Such people may be short on critical reasoning, but the emotional force that drives them is a desire for wonder and the magical. Many have remarked that this is, indeed, almost a religious impulse. Ive wanted to see a real-live flying saucer my entire life. Likewise, if Nessie really existed, what an incredible sight that would be to look upon the last surviving dinosaur in the flesh! But a videotape of a standing wave shot from five miles away does not outweigh the whole air-breather / no fish evidence. It does not come close to outweighing it. And so I reluctantly throw Nessie back into the superstition bin from whence she came.
But these denialists the Moon Hoaxers and the 9/11 Truthers these are a different breed. And they are cut from precisely the same cloth. That is to say, they suffer from the same disease: an unwillingness to face reality and its consequences.
And here he has hit on the most prevalent mental illness of our time: The Unwillingness To Face Reality And Its Consequences.
I deal regularly with people who have various levels of physiological abnormality in their brain. Through an unfortunate series of events--their genetics; random biological mutations; or the deliberate use of mind-altering substances that activate the latent psychosis; etc. etc., these unfortunate souls start out with or unknowingly stimulate a defective physiology which causes a dysfunction in their cognitive faculties. Their defective brain works hard to integrate events and make sense of the world, but it is at a serious and overwhelming disadvantage because its neural pathways don't work properly. Hence, auditory or visual hallucination; bizarre delusions; complicated conspiracy theories; disorganized thinking; and an impaired critical thinking capacity in general--all of which lead to pervasive misperceptions of the world and the people around them.
We rightly call such people mentally ill. For the most part (except for the substance-induced psychotics) the only choice they have in the matter (and this, too is often dependent on whether or not the insight they have into their illness has been spared the physiological degneration that effects other parts of their brain) is whether to regularly take the medications that give them some hope of being able to accurately perceive reality.
The people I am concerned about in this post are as close to being mentally ill as it is possible to get. Oh, they have the same catastrophic physiological disruption in their brain that the paranoid schizophrenic has; it's just that they came to it via a different route. They probably weren't born with much of a physiological vulnerability for becoming detached from reality....no, they had to have repeatedly travelled down the psycho path to reach their final delusional destination. It is likely that at first they mentally got lost and accidentally took a wrong turn, leaving the main highway. It was always within their cognitive power to return to the main road (unlike those with mental illness who are biologically trapped on the false path); but at some point they chose to stay on their present course.
The world of politics attracts paranoia, conspiracy theories and paranoids like flypaper attracts flies. And it is deeply disturbing to observe. Whittle notes:
I am more interested in the psychology of someone who believes in these conspiracy theories. I exempt people who have only heard one side of the story, as I did. Sadly, skepticism doesnt sell as well as hysteria....
Intellectually honest people, people without a deep, vested emotional need to believe the worst, are usually relieved to hear the facts that demolish superstitions like the Bermuda Triangle and the Loch Ness Monster. While there may be disappointment at the loss of an unseen world, people who have chosen to live in reality find comfort in the fact that reality is, in fact, made up of the real and not the wished for.
No, what fascinates me is the emotional motive of people who, presented with overwhelming evidence that the events that transpired on November 22nd, 1963 or September 11th, 2001 really happened exactly the way it appeared, continue to spin ever more elaborate webs in order to get to a place they need to be emotionally. Who are you going to believe: them or your own lying eyes?
All of this conspiracy nonsense comes after the fact. What we saw on those days was clear and vital and unmistakably obvious. In the case of the Kennedy assassination we are asked to believe against all physical evidence to the contrary what a few professional witnesses recall for pay ten or twenty or thirty years after the fact. Some guy who claims to see a puff of smoke on the grassy knoll is now a world-wide celebrity and not just some dude with time on his hands on a November afternoon. (And don't be deterred by the fact that a musket firing black powder was the last firearm that emitted "a puff of smoke;" perhaps Kennedy was murdered by a re-animated Stonewall Jackson. Prove it didn't happen!)
Ive met a number of these people. I know this is harsh, but Im sick of watching the damage they are doing to this civilization: these people are, to a man, complete losers. Losers. They are desperate and sad people who need to believe in some dark secret to give meaning to their lives....
Recently, Rosie ODonnell said on national television that she believes 9/11 was orchestrated by the US government.
Well, thats why we went through the steps above. If you believe that the government lied about the moon landing, you can believe they lied about killing JFK. If they lied about JFK, then they can lie about chemtrails. And if they are willing to poison the entire population with aerial spraying, what are a few thousand people in four airliners and a couple of buildings?
Rosie O Donnell making such a claim on a major network is a national disgrace. The fact that much of the audience cheered and applauded is nothing less than a national catastrophe.
To her, and to her audience, it is taken as granted that the government is capable of such things. As if the government was operated by cyborgs grown in Haliburton vats, rather than by well-meaning and patriotic people that love this country.
...what kind of moral universe do you have to inhabit to be able to believe that your own people airline personnel, demolition experts, police and security forces, faked witnesses and all the rest are capable of such a thing? How much hate for your own society do you have to carry in order to live in such a desolate and ridiculous mental hell? What psychoses must a mind be riddled with in order to negate what was perfectly obvious and instead believe a theory of such monumental fantasy? How much pure constant hatred does that take?
What, in short, is the miserable black hole of self-loathing that drives a person like Rosie ODonnell and millions like her?
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #11 on:
June 09, 2007, 09:53:53 PM »
The examples of paranoia exhibited by the political left and mouthpieces like Rosie in the last six years would be amusing, if they weren't so alarming and so mainstream. People who used to think like that were marginalized out of respect (or perhaps embarassment) over the physiological dysfunction that made them crazy. Nowadays, the theories of Rosie O'Donnells, Michael Moores, Cindy Sheehans and the like are best-selling books, movies and CDs. Their every word is plastered all over the news until the ordinary citizen begins to hear voices in his head, too.
When you consider the absurd complexity; the unparalleled detail and complete bizarreness of the various "Bushitlerhallisharpton" kinds of conspiracy theories that routinely come from the left these days, you've got to wonder why they find it so difficult and impossible to believe in a DOCUMENTED connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda. That there was ABSOLUTELY NO SUCH THING is their strident, urgent response; even as they develop layer upon layer of loose connections and illogical associations to bolster the conspiracy du jour that they are promoting against the Bush Adminsitration.
Ask yourself why the possibility--let alone the reality-- of such a connection is actually so fundamentally threatening to them and their worldview.
You can always find out what the latest delusion making the rounds is by following the deeply disturbed fantasies at the Democratic Underground (I won't link to them) and the Huffington Post--which is only a more upscale DU--the Nieman Marcus of conspiracy department stores.
There is a reason that human beings experience suspicion, distrust and hypervigilance. That reason is because there is REAL danger in the world. Our ancestors in the caves knew this to be true. They lived with continual danger just to survive every minute of every day. Those who did not have the psychological capacity to perceive the danger in the environment surely died out long ago.
But this important psychological trait which senses danger and strives to protect the ego; and which is accentuated in children and early in life, is appropriately balanced out by the development of the rational faculty--the intellect.
The tools of the paranoid are denial, distortion, and projection. These psychological tools are almost always pathological when used to cope with the real world. For the user these three primitive psychological defenses permit a [hopefully temporary] rearrangement of external reality so that an actual, often unpleasant or painful reality may be avoided; for the beholder, the users of these mechanisms frequently appear crazy or insane. These are known as the "psychotic" defenses, common in overt psychosis, in dreams, and throughout childhood.
Denial is a refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening. There are examples of denial being adaptive (for example, it might be adaptive for a person who has a terminal illness to use some degree of denial). But for the most part, denial is only useful as a short-term strategy, to permit a person to come to terms with reality. As a long-term strategy to protect self-identity, it is potentially lethal--since the person or group that uses it extensively is blinded to the real danger that might be out there.
Distortion is a gross reshaping of external reality to meet internal needs. Hinchey's bizarre accusations against the evil genius Rove are a perfect example. It is more acceptable to believe that some evil person has tricked you, than it is to believe that you behaved stupidly.
Delusional Projection occurs when an individual or group have delusions about external reality, usually of a persecutory nature.
It is easy to see how all these psychological manipulations work together to keep a person or a group insulated from reality. In truth, we witness such behavior all around us (and it is certainly not exclusive to one side of the political spectrum--though the political left has almost exclusive rights to it at this point in history).
Physiologically, anyone using these psychological strategies have some of short-circuit in their brain. That includes both those who are truly mentally ill with major psychiatric disorders; as well as those who, for psychological and psychosocial reasons, desire their brains to simulate mental illness in order to avoid reality. The only difference between the two is that the latter group have a potential to rediscover reality without any particular medication or treatment. A rediscovery may be painful; it may require a lot of soul-searching and an ability to face the unpleasant truth about themselves or their belief system, but insight and growth often are difficult processes.
How does reason balance suspicion? You say to yourself: is this feeling paranoid? Do I have facts to back up my suspicions, or do I only feel that it is so? Are these facts? Or, are they distortions, because I really really want to believe this is true?
How do you tell a fact from a distortion? 9/11 was a FACT. Millions of people experienced it directly; millions more watched it unravel indirectly. There are mounds of evidence and data that it was planned and funded by Al-Qaeda and carried out by Islamic terrorists. These are FACTS. The widespread belief among Muslims that the Jews are behind 9/11 and that they did it so that the blame would fall on Muslims is a DISTORTION, which comes from DENIAL of the facts; and represents a PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION. It is a PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION because many Muslims want desperately to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion and prohibits such acts, despite what is said in the Qu'ran, and what is practiced in the real world.
Likewise, the widespread belief on the political left that the Bush Administration and the US government is behind 9/11 and that they did it so that they did it because--- oh who the hell can possibly understand all the frivolous reasons they cite-- is also a DISTORTION, which comes from DENIAL of the facts; and represents a PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION. It is a PSYCHOLOGICAL PROJECTION because many on the left want desperately to believe that their socialist ideology/religion stands for peace and that Republicans/Conservatives/Neocons are behind all the evil in the world, instead of their utopian fantasies, despite all the horrors their fantasies have produced in the real world.
Many people desperately need to cling to something--anthing, no matter how bizarre or psychotic-- that proves (at least in their own dysfunctional minds) that their beliefs about President Bush being a fascist dictator, another Hitler; about to implement a Christian theocracy are true. They believe this so deeply that it is impossible for facts to debunk such a religious fantasy. In their minds, if it is true, then they are not such losers for believing in an ideology that is responsible for the deaths and misery of millions around the world.
These people are so far gone, they have willingly abandoned the classical liberal values that once were part of the Democratic Party, and instead embraced a nihilistic culture of victimhood. In doing so, they now support all the losers, thugs and murderers of the world.
It is only a very short step from marching to support and cleverly rationalizing the homicidal and violent terrorist groups that make up the Palestinian cause to then swallowing whole the vile antisemitism that motivates the delusions they need to maintain their victimhood status.
As long as the Palestinians are the left's preferred and idealized victim group, neither have to face their own pathological inadequacies as people. As SC&A observe in a post on Arab conspiracies:
Israel and the success and contributions of Jews to western civilization as opposed to their own failures are in the mirror the Arab world has to look at daily. Those truths are almost intolerable to most Arabs. To be sure there are many progressive, intellectual Arabs that understand that Israel is a reality and that the successes of Jews in the west are a model that should be emulated, but for most, Israel and the success of the Jewish community integration into the American and western mosaic, remains a cruel violation of Allah's promise to them. The fact that Allah seems to have abandoned them to live in such squalor and hopelessness is of no concern- it is the non Muslims that remain the obsession. It is the non-Muslims that have upset the 'natural' Islamic order.
The Arab world is not humiliated by the lack of decent schools. The Arab world is not humiliated by their scientific backwardness and book burnings. In a smaller, interconnected world, they cannot be unaware of their own medievalism. The Arab world is not humiliated by collapsed economies. There are car manufacturers in China and Africa, yet there are only 'plans' for an auto industry in the Arab world.
To put it all in context- how is it possible that the humiliations of centuries of Arab failures are trumped by the political 'humiliations of today? What powerful agenda can pull a whole society away from reality?
This is the same powerful agenda that has pulled the left away from reason, truth and reality. Bill Whittle made a profound observation about those people who prefer to ignore Lee Harvey Oswald and subscribe to more complicated JFK assassination conspiracy theories: They are Oswald.
Likewise the left has become the Palestinians. They identify with the Arabs. That is the psychological basis of their unholy alliance with the Islamists and jihadists.
The paranoia, projection and denial all serve to make them feel better about themselves; make them feel less like the losers they are. By inventing themselves as the victims of the BushHitler--or the Jews, or the neocons or whatever-- they can, like a typical, arrogant paranoid psychotic, pat themselves on the back at their heroic, courageous, and "principled" stand against the forces of oppression. Their failures are NOT THEIR FAULT. Everything in their life would be better if THE EVIL OPPRESSORS would go away. Their need to externalize blame for their own failure will trump any facts and obscure any contradicting reality. Without the paranoia, they are nothing.
Emotions are an important part of life, but if you base all your behavior on what you FEEL, then you are vulnerable to all sorts of psychopathology. Paranoia is an extreme of what otherwise would be helpful and normal reactions to the perception of danger. Paranoia distorts reality in the service of protecting the self from having to deal with unacceptable thoughts or feelings. It is useful to protect the integrity of the sense of self--sometimes even at the expense of one's life.
Paranoia helps individuals and groups defend against their own hostility and their perceived insignificance. Often the emotions displayed by the paranoid are covering up the exact opposite emotion within. Paranoia is reason in the service of the irrational. The paranoid cannot afford to examine his or her premises and face reality because to do so would do two things:
(1) it would display to the world the deep, irrational hatred which he is defending himself against by making himself the "victim" of someone else's deep, irrational hatred; and
(2) it would cause him to admit his own insignificance, because if he is NOT the center of a plot and the focus of his "enemies" then he must be shamefully unimportant - a nobody.
You would think that a paranoid person would be reassured to discover that people or groups are NOT out to get him. That there is no conspiracy against the group. You would be wrong. This is the last thing that the Paranoid individual or group really want, because--if they are not being persecuted, or betrayed, or lied to, or oppressed--then the Paranoid must face the devastating reality of his own insignificance. This he cannot do and it is why the alternate reality was constructed in the first place.
The paranoid solution to unacceptable thoughts or feelings is to say, "If I am having these bad thoughts or feeling or behaviors, then someone else must be to blame and is making me do it." The Paranoid person does not take responsibility for his own thoughts or feelings or behaviors.
Conspiracy theories serve one of two purposes. They either serve as a rationale for the unacceptable successes of others; or as reasons for the failures of a particular group or individual. The Arab world fixation with Jews and the reasons for Jewish successes serve as the classic fodder for conspiracy theorists in the Middle East. In the US, the Rosie O'Donnell's and Michael Moore's are still trying desperately to account for the success of the Republicans in being elected to the White House and their own failure. Reality itself had to be distorted in order to protect them from feeling low self-esteem or shame. Bush Derangement and the various derivatives of the underlying hatred that infuses it has become second nature, and this transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator to the observer that such individuals are experiencing internal shame. It is but a short walk up that psycho path to paranoia and delusion.
A healthy individual's solution is to take responsibility for his or her thoughts, feelings, behaviors, successes and failures. Even if it is sometimes painful to acknowledge. But by owning his or her feelings, the healthy individual is able to exert control over inappropriate behavior that might spring from those feelings.
Another way of saying this is that you cannot choose the feelings that you experience- emotions are not generally under conscious control; but you can choose how to act on those feelings, because behavior is under conscious control.
Paranoia strikes deep. It will creep into your heart when you are afraid of your own feelings and try to disown them by blaming the "Jews", the "Blacks", or "Gays" or even President Bush. History has been littered with millions of dead bodies resulting from the denial, distortion and projection of paranoid leaders like Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, and Bin Laden. But those people had followers who believed just as they did, and did most of their dirty work.
You have to stop, look and see what's going down in your own heart and face some unpleasant and devastating facts about yourself--if you want to understand how such evil can exist.
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #12 on:
June 12, 2007, 01:11:29 PM »
The above top secret site attempts to prove that a 757 hit the Pentagon. Whether or not a plane or missile or a Global Hawk hit the pentagon is irrelevant when arguing if there was government complacency or conspiracy in 9-11.
The Abovetopsecret.com thread failed to address these issues.
There are no skid marks on lawn of Pentagon before impact which indicates extremely talented flying.
Hani Hanjour was the pilot of Flight 77.
Odd coincidence, 5 Raytheon high level employees died on the four planes on 9-11 (Raytheon developed the Global Hawk unmanned aircraft.)
CNN reporting that there is no evidence of a plane crash at Pentagon
Does Rumsfeld admit a missile hit Pentagon? They [find a lot] and any number of terrorist efforts have been dissuaded, deterred or stopped by good intelligence gathering and good preventive work. It is a truth that a terrorist can attack any time, any place, using any technique and it's physically impossible to defend at every time and every place against every conceivable technique. Here we're talking about plastic knives and using an American Airlines flight filed with our citizens, and the missile to damage this building and similar (inaudible) that damaged the World Trade Center. The only way to deal with this problem is by taking the battle to the terrorists, wherever they are, and dealing with them.
Other example of plane hitting light poles
It will take some time to sort through the
site. Lots of information which I plan to read thoroughly. But one thing I noticed was missing from the so-called clearing house of 9-11.
Why wasnt NORAD activated?
NORAD is the North American Aerospace Defense Command created to protect the Canadian and American skies from invasion. In 2000, NORAD was activated 67 times.
On 9-11 after 1 hour and 20 minutes, when the Pentagon was attacked, NORAD was still 150 miles from Washington DC. They are supposed to be airborne within 10 minutes of a problem. Why was there response time so slow? There are many arguments for both sides.
Two of the videos linked by Crafty caught my attention. The rest of them simply seemed to be footage of the destruction of the Towers and offers no evidence for or against a conspiracy.
1. The rare video footage taken by amateurs.
At 5m15s, a firefighter says it was like there were detonators planted (or planned) to take down the building.
2. The video of Flight 93
where the debris is said to be no bigger than a phone book and spread out over 4 miles. The crater in the ground being 20 feet wide and 15 feet deep .. Never before has a plane completely obliterated from an impact crash into the ground. In ALL cases in the past, there were identifiable body parts and large plane sections. This would indicate to me that the plane blew up in the sky rather than impacted the ground. In addition, the wreckage of Flight 93 is protected inside Iron Mountain rather than in the hands of the TSA or FAA. Never before has a plane crash been so protected.
(Of interest, according to CNN
Cheney gave the shoot down order of Flight 93?)
Cold War Scout, It's not a theory. It's utter, pure, Rosie O'Donnell/Michael Moore, et al drivel. What frightens me most is that they would be somebody's primary source of credible information. I despise Michael Moore, I did not see his Fahrenheit 9-11 movie. As far as I know, the only claim Moore made about what happened on 9-11 is that Bush is dumb. Michael Moore has nothing to contribute to this topic. And Rosie ODonnell likely has done more damage than good. I would question her motives. To imply that this is my primary source of credible information is about as pathetic as GMs comment on UFOs.
Im not sure, GM, what the moon landing, JFK assassination, or chemtrails, have to do with 9-11. It only goes to show how certain people have been conditioned to associate the words conspiracy theory with any event that comes into question. I assume at this point you are going to ask me if I think Elvis is still alive. After getting through all the condescending nonsense on your post, I found something of value. The Popular Mechanics article was written by Michael Chertoffs cousin (Benjamin Chertoff) and has since been refuted by Ray Griffin in his book
and this lecture
Now, if an F-4 crashes into a concrete wall and completely vanishes without going through the wall as shown in the video mentioned
Here is an excellent response to the F-4 comparison.
As for explosives in the towers, there are many theories surrounding that. No one has a definitive answer nor is it relevant in looking at the overall picture of government involvement in 9-11. But there are eyewitness reports inside the building of seeing explosives including an explosion that happened in the basement of WTC
But the big questions are when and how were explosives planted in the building? I have no idea. I realize that laying explosives inside a building of that size would take months and months, but there was opportunity.
Pure conjecture on my part, but couldnt a building be wired with explosives using wireless technology thereby eliminating any need for exposed wires? In addition, Marvin Bush was involved in WTC security.
But I would like to explore this further ..
GM, you mentioned that you are a trained criminal investigator. It seems to me that you refuse to look at any evidence short of a confession. And rather than argue any of the points about World Trade Center 7, you continue to whitewash the subject by interjecting your idiotic, sarcastic, psychology articles. It is leading me to believe you have little knowledge whatsoever on this subject.
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #13 on:
June 12, 2007, 09:59:56 PM »
I am quite busy with the run-up to our Gathering of the Pack AND I don't want to get in the way of the interesting exchange between Dog Brian and GM, but if I may be indulged in tossing an additional question to Brian:
I remember when I was a boy that my dad told me the story of the Great Train Robbery in England. I forget the details, but the gist of it was that there was a spectacular robbery for a huge pile money. Apparently 9 people were involved. The reporters asked the inspector from Scotland Yard who was heading the investigation if he had any clues? No. Any evidence? No. Any theories? No. Any suspects? No. Anything? No.
"Still, I am confident we will catch them."
How could he be confident with no clues, evidence, theories, or suspects the reporters asked.
"9 people can't keep a secret" he replied-- and he turned out to be right.
The point is this Brian-- for the theories you are putting forth to be true, a lot more than 9 people would need to be in on the conspiracy-- and that many people can't keep a secret.
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #14 on:
June 12, 2007, 10:25:05 PM »
Outlaw bikers have a similar concept. "Three can keep a secret if two are dead".
Ok, let me get this straight, on 9/11/01 four aircraft were hijacked by some US gov't operatives, two of which hit the WTC, One disappeared with the crew and passengers to parts unknown and the Pentagon was then hit with a missile while the fourth plane was shot down by a fighter aircraft as part of the cover-up. The WTC and WTC 7 were then brought down by explosives hidden in the buildings by gov't personnel. Exactly how many people would you need to do this? Where are the passengers of the planes? Why did they call their family members and report arab hijackers? Why did they say they were going to fight the hijackers on flight 93 if this wasn't the case? Why use a missile on the pentagon if you can fly planes into the WTC? Why shoot down flight 93 instead of crashing it into congress or the white house? Why not just say the WTC was brought down by bombs instead of trying to use aircraft as cover creating additional operational difficulties and risks of disclosures?
The NY Times and other media outlets have published many stories on classified operations and issues damaging to this President, why won't they take your source material from such prestigious sites as abovetopsecret.com and publish the biggest story in American history?
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #15 on:
June 13, 2007, 09:32:06 PM »
Brainwashed obviously.....
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #16 on:
June 13, 2007, 11:37:10 PM »
Looks like Dennis Leary is part of the conspiracy......
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #17 on:
June 19, 2007, 03:45:34 PM »
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #18 on:
June 19, 2007, 10:23:47 PM »
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #19 on:
June 20, 2007, 11:58:14 AM »
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #20 on:
June 20, 2007, 04:21:54 PM »
Please include a description of what the clip is about, why you post it, etc.
thank you,
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #21 on:
June 20, 2007, 05:05:08 PM »
The difference between the train robbery story and 9-11 is that in this case there are clues, evidence, theories, and suspects.
Actually, many people in prominent positions both military, government and civilian have questioned the official story of 9-11 suggesting a cover-up. Here is a list of those who have spoken and what they believe.
There are several examples of investigators being blocked from doing their jobs. Operation Able Danger was just one example. Many people testified before the 9-11 commission report yet their testimony was not included in the report.
Immediately after 9-11 Bush, Rice, and Rumsfled expressed their utter surprise that jets could be used as weapons. They told us that they had never heard of such a thing. Yet the Japanese clearly did it in WWII, Operation Bojanko was uncovered in 1995 and in addition NORAD ran drills about using jets as weapons pre-911.
On the evening before 9-11, FEMA was already in place at New York ready to respond. Why? Because on the morning of 9-11, drills were being conducted involving hijacked planes.
This caused confusion for the people 'on the ground' and also it was used as a cover story for not having our proper defensive measures activated.
And this headline by the AP Agency planned exercise on Sept. 11 built around a plane crashing into a building
By JOHN J. LUMPKIN, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - In what the government describes as a bizarre coincidence, one U.S. intelligence agency was planning an exercise last Sept. 11 in which an errant aircraft would crash into one of its buildings. But the cause wasnt terrorism it was to be a simulated accident.
Cynthia McKinney (yeah, I know) questions Rumsfeld about these drills. Watch Rumsfeld squirm a little too much.
And Operation Northwoods from the 1960's made it very clear that our own government would hijack our own planes and blame it on the Cubans to start a war.
Hijackers turn up alive.....
....yet they are still on the FBI wanted list with their pictures? Shouldnt the FBI update their wanted posters?
The 911 Commission Report completely ignores the money trail. From WorldNetDaily.com dated Jan 30, 2002 entitled Did ally Pakistan play role in 9-11?
According to accounts in both The Times of India and India Today, former ISI spy chief Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmad instructed Sheikh to send the $100,000 to Atta.
"A direct link between the ISI and the WTC attack could have enormous repercussions," the Times article said. "The U.S. cannot but suspect whether there were other senior Pakistani Army commanders who were in the know of things."
And from The New York Post "With CIA backing and the funnelling of massive amounts of U.S. military aid, the ISI developed [since the early 1980s] into a parallel structure wielding enormous power over all aspects of government....The ISI had a staff composed of military and intelligence officers, bureaucrats, undercover agents and informers estimated at 150,000."
The Pakistani ISI and CIA seem to be interconnected yet the Pakistani ISI chief was involved in providing the funds for .Mohammed Atta. This same chief visited the White House the week prior to 9-11.
And we also have the immediate removal of evidence from the crime scene. In calling for a new investigation, some structural engineers have said that one serious mistake has already been made in the chaotic aftermath of the collapses: the decision to rapidly recycle the steel columns, beams, and trusses that held up the buildings. That may have cost investigators some of their most direct physical evidence with which to try to piece together an answer.
Also Rueters reported on an unexplained surge of financial transactions just before 9-11.
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #22 on:
June 20, 2007, 05:22:52 PM »
I wish the WTC's structural supports had been this dense....
Let's do a little link analysis 101. I watch Joe Felon go into Wells Fargo to deposit money. I watch you go into the same bank. You withdraw money from the same teller Joe Felon deposited money with. Does this create a nexus between you and Joe Felon?
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #23 on:
June 20, 2007, 05:32:38 PM »
Speaking of failing to address issues, what REALLY happened on 9/11? No endless links to "Trufer" sites. Tell me who, what, why, when and where and how. Your words, not more links to
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #24 on:
June 21, 2007, 11:15:10 AM »
My bad...
Recently released 3D study of plane crash into WTC done by Purdue University:
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #25 on:
June 21, 2007, 02:01:49 PM »
Hey GM
I don't think for one second that you would accept my beliefs. Besides, my beliefs are irrelevant when arguing facts. You have shown an unwillingness to bring up any valid arguments and have contributed nothing to this discussion outside of your 'psycology of conspiracy' articles which may be applicable to a few but certainly not for me. And your Purdue 3D imaging really says nothing about government cover-up or complacency.
You have chosen to accept the official story about 9-11. I have not. Governments by their very nature lie, distort, and cover-up. Our government is no different. It can be shown with a few irrefutable examples starting with....
Sinking of the USS Maine and the lie to start the Spanish American War
Foreknowlege of the bombing of Pearl Harbor
Israel's diiberate attack on the USS Liberty
Golf of Tonkin
9-11 happened to start a war. I think Smedly Butler said it best.
by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient:
Major General Smedley D. Butler, USMC [Retired]
Chapter One
WAR is a racket. It always has been.
It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
In the World War
a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict. At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.
How many of these war millionaires shouldered a rifle? How many of them dug a trench? How many of them knew what it meant to go hungry in a rat-infested dug-out? How many of them spent sleepless, frightened nights, ducking shells and shrapnel and machine gun bullets? How many of them parried a bayonet thrust of an enemy? How many of them were wounded or killed in battle?
Out of war nations acquire additional territory, if they are victorious. They just take it. This newly acquired territory promptly is exploited by the few the selfsame few who wrung dollars out of blood in the war. The general public shoulders the bill.
And what is this bill?
This bill renders a horrible accounting. Newly placed gravestones. Mangled bodies. Shattered minds. Broken hearts and homes. Economic instability. Depression and all its attendant miseries. Back-breaking taxation for generations and generations.
For a great many years, as a soldier, I had a suspicion that war was a racket; not until I retired to civil life did I fully realize it. Now that I see the international war clouds gathering, as they are today, I must face it and speak out.
Again they are choosing sides. France and Russia met and agreed to stand side by side. Italy and Austria hurried to make a similar agreement. Poland and Germany cast sheep's eyes at each other, forgetting for the nonce [one unique occasion], their dispute over the Polish Corridor.
The assassination of King Alexander of Jugoslavia [Yugoslavia] complicated matters. Jugoslavia and Hungary, long bitter enemies, were almost at each other's throats. Italy was ready to jump in. But France was waiting. So was Czechoslovakia. All of them are looking ahead to war. Not the people not those who fight and pay and die only those who foment wars and remain safely at home to profit.
There are 40,000,000 men under arms in the world today, and our statesmen and diplomats have the temerity to say that war is not in the making.
Hell's bells! Are these 40,000,000 men being trained to be dancers?
Not in Italy, to be sure. Premier Mussolini knows what they are being trained for. He, at least, is frank enough to speak out. Only the other day, Il Duce in "International Conciliation," the publication of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said:
"And above all, Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace... War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the people who have the courage to meet it."
Undoubtedly Mussolini means exactly what he says. His well-trained army, his great fleet of planes, and even his navy are ready for war anxious for it, apparently. His recent stand at the side of Hungary in the latter's dispute with Jugoslavia showed that. And the hurried mobilization of his troops on the Austrian border after the assassination of Dollfuss showed it too. There are others in Europe too whose sabre rattling presages war, sooner or later.
Herr Hitler, with his rearming Germany and his constant demands for more and more arms, is an equal if not greater menace to peace. France only recently increased the term of military service for its youth from a year to eighteen months.
Yes, all over, nations are camping in their arms. The mad dogs of Europe are on the loose. In the Orient the maneuvering is more adroit. Back in 1904, when Russia and Japan fought, we kicked out our old friends the Russians and backed Japan. Then our very generous international bankers were financing Japan. Now the trend is to poison us against the Japanese. What does the "open door" policy to China mean to us? Our trade with China is about $90,000,000 a year. Or the Philippine Islands? We have spent about $600,000,000 in the Philippines in thirty-five years and we (our bankers and industrialists and speculators) have private investments there of less than $200,000,000.
Then, to save that China trade of about $90,000,000, or to protect these private investments of less than $200,000,000 in the Philippines, we would be all stirred up to hate Japan and go to war a war that might well cost us tens of billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of lives of Americans, and many more hundreds of thousands of physically maimed and mentally unbalanced men.
Of course, for this loss, there would be a compensating profit fortunes would be made. Millions and billions of dollars would be piled up. By a few. Munitions makers. Bankers. Ship builders. Manufacturers. Meat packers. Speculators. They would fare well.
Yes, they are getting ready for another war. Why shouldn't they? It pays high dividends.
But what does it profit the men who are killed? What does it profit their mothers and sisters, their wives and their sweethearts? What does it profit their children?
What does it profit anyone except the very few to whom war means huge profits?
Yes, and what does it profit the nation?
Take our own case. Until 1898 we didn't own a bit of territory outside the mainland of North America. At that time our national debt was a little more than $1,000,000,000. Then we became "internationally minded." We forgot, or shunted aside, the advice of the Father of our country. We forgot George Washington's warning about "entangling alliances." We went to war. We acquired outside territory. At the end of the World War period, as a direct result of our fiddling in international affairs, our national debt had jumped to over $25,000,000,000. Our total favorable trade balance during the twenty-five-year period was about $24,000,000,000. Therefore, on a purely bookkeeping basis, we ran a little behind year for year, and that foreign trade might well have been ours without the wars.
It would have been far cheaper (not to say safer) for the average American who pays the bills to stay out of foreign entanglements. For a very few this racket, like bootlegging and other underworld rackets, brings fancy profits, but the cost of operations is always transferred to the people who do not profit.
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #26 on:
June 21, 2007, 02:04:39 PM »
Did Osama charter flight out of U.S. after 9/11?
FBI says jets took Saudis home following terrorism
Posted: June 20, 2007
7:10 p.m. Eastern
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
"The document states: 'ON 9/19/01, A 727 PLANE LEFT LAX, RYAN FLT #441 TO ORLANDO, FL W/ETA (estimated time of arrival) OF 4-5PM. THE PLANE WAS CHARTERED EITHER BY THE SAUDI ARABIAN ROYAL FAMILY OR OSAMA BIN LADEN THE LA FBI SEARCHED THE PLANE [REDACTED] LUGGAGE, OF WHICH NOTHING UNUSUAL WAS FOUND,'" the Judicial Watch report said.
That flight made four stops to pick up passengers before being allowed to leave the United States en route to Paris, the FBI documents reveal. It was among six such flights where the FBI briefly interviewed some passengers and inspected some luggage, the report said. Flights collected passengers or made stops in California, Texas and Florida, among several other places.
"The Saudis had at least two other planes on call. Starting in Los Angeles on an undetermined date, one of them flew first to Orlando, Florida, where Khalil bin Laden boarded. From Orlando, the plane continued to Dulles International Airport, outside Washington, D.C., before going on to Boston's Logan International Airport on September 19, picking up members of the bin Laden family along the way," another excerpt confirmed.
"Eight days after the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history, Osama bin Laden possibly charters a flight to whisk his family out of the country, and it's not worth more than a luggage search and a few brief interviews?" asked Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. "Clearly these documents prove the FBI conducted a slapdash investigation of these Saudi flights. We'll never know how many investigative leads were lost due to the FBI's lack of diligence."
A spokesman for the FBI, who asked that his name not be used, said the claims were investigated earlier, and found to be without grounds.
"There's no new information," he told WND. "Osama did not charter a flight out of the United States. It was thoroughly investigated. All of this is in the 9/11 commission report."
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #27 on:
June 21, 2007, 05:09:23 PM »
Why can't you answer the simplest question of what happened on 9/11? Anyone can claim ANYTHING. Serious claims require SERIOUS EVIDENCE.
"I don't think for one second that you would accept my beliefs."
**Here is the problem. It's a belief system for you. No logic or rational thinking involved. It fulfills some core need for you. This has become some sort of cargo cult for the disenfranchised in this society. Again, I would cite you as exhibit A for the articles on the psychology of the "Truthers".
"Besides, my beliefs are irrelevant when arguing fact"
You have yet to produce anything resembling a fact. I have to wonder if you even know the difference in definition between beliefs and facts.
Again, articulate what happened on 9/11 and your corroborative evidence supporting your assertions.
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #28 on:
June 22, 2007, 12:03:19 PM »
It is you GM that doesn't know the difference between belief and fact! I don't think you have ever done any research into 9-11. You have taken the fiction of the official story and made it your belief without ever checking the facts. And instead of doing any research, all you do is make condescending remarks.
I have offered examples from mainstream press reports (not just "truther" websites) that are inconsistant with the official story. You have offered NOTHING to refute any of it. Until you do, you are nothing but a waste of my time.
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #29 on:
June 22, 2007, 12:20:43 PM »
Problems with the Purdue University Study.
1. The study says nothing about WTC7 which was never hit by a plane yet fell in 6.5 seconds on its own footprint in what looks like a controlled demolition.
2. It does not address the molten metal found in the wreckage weeks after 9-11 even though airplane fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel.
3. The simulation does not address the crash of the South Tower which was hit at an angle and most of the jet fuel exploded outside the buiilding.
4. The architechs of the building said it could withstand a plane impact where all the jet fuel would stay on the inside of the building. According to the architechs, the buildings should never have fallen.
5. The NIST report states that only one column was severed by the impact yet Purdue states that several columns were severed.
6. NIST states that airplane debris created a shotgun blast to dislodge the fireproofing material, Purdue states that the jet fuel did it.
7. NIST states that AA11 did not have fuel in the center fuselage, Purdue's simulation shows fuel in the fuselage.
8. If the fire was so hot as to melt steel, why can people be seen standing in the impact holes waving for help? Niether their clothes or hair are burned.
The Purdue Simulation contradicts the official story which should only raise more questions.
Ron Paul asked about 9-11
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Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #30 on:
June 22, 2007, 02:56:48 PM »
The burden of proof is on you. You're making the assertion. So, again, what happened on 9/11? It's a simple question.
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #31 on:
June 22, 2007, 03:25:33 PM »
I went to work for the US Gov't post-9/11. I gave up a dream job as a DA's Investigator to do so. I was TDY in New York spring/early summer 2002. I've been to ground zero. Have you? I worked with NYPD and PAPD officers. By New York standards, PAPD is a small agency. Many of the officers I worked with knew someone that died on 9/11.Most had worked at ground zero in the days after. Funny, none of us were worried about the CIA doing another attack, we were looking for jihadists. Let me guess, you're just much smarter than us.....
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Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #32 on:
June 22, 2007, 08:50:24 PM »
Science or CIA disinformation? You be the judge. Yes Brian, I know that PBS has three letters just like CIA, thus that's your proof the website is bogus....
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Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #33 on:
June 22, 2007, 09:14:36 PM »
All those who aren't in need of psychiatric care will grasp the information within.
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Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #34 on:
June 23, 2007, 03:10:02 PM »
MKH undercover among the "Truthers".
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #35 on:
June 26, 2007, 02:00:57 PM »
The Purdue Study is not an independent investigation but was funded by the NSF or National Science Foundation which is a governmental organization that recently was granted an increase which doubled their annual budget to $6 billion.
The head of the NSF is Arden L. Bement, Jr. who worked for the DoD and on DARPA programs.
The director of the Purdue study is Mete A. Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. who served on the ASCE team that studied the OKC bombing.
**The burden of proof is on you. You're making the assertion. So, again, what happened on 9/11? It's a simple question.**
Sure GM, it may be a simple question but would require a complicated answer. And then of course you would want sources (and rightly so) for every detail, which would be exhaustive. It is far more constructive for me to simply point out inconsistencies and lies within the official version. I think your mind is made up in either case. That doesnt bother me at all.
It seems like you are taking this a little too personally. ** Let me guess, you're just much smarter than us.....** This gave me flashbacks of fighting on a preschool playground!!
Im not saying there arent jihadists. Of course there is, but jihadists are not the real danger. Funny how the Patriot Act was rushed through Congress without any legislators reading the bill. Strange how PNAC called for a catalyzing event like a New Pearl Harbor in 2000 to propel our military into the 21st century and was signed by neo-cons like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. . Mohammed Attas passport flys unscathed through the burning wreckage and onto the streets of New York to be immediately identified as one of the hijackers. The FBI already had names of hijackers within hours of the crash even though they were not listed on the flight manifests. The government refuses to issue any meaningful video footage of the Pentagon crash. The wreckage of Flight 93 being reduced to nothing larger than pieces the size of phonebooks spread out over 5 miles and no identifiable body parts yet they tell us it collided with the ground. (BTW the wreckage of Flight 93 is being stored in a vault underground at Iron Mountain rather than being reconstructed by the hands of the FAA or TSA which is SOP for an airplane accident) Three Skyscrapers falling to the ground at free fall speed (no resistance by the lower floors or the 47 steel columns) in one day in which one of the towers was not hit by a plane. Never in the history of steel skyscrapers has this happened. Our leaders telling us that they never conceived of such an attack even though there is ample proof otherwise. How much evidence does one need to smell a cover-up? First they told us the passengers of Flight 93 were communicating via cell phone. When it was shown that cell phones do not normally work at those altitudes and at that speed, the government recanted their statement and said that onboard airphones, not cell phones, were being used even though one of the calls they say came from the bathroom. First Larry Silverstein says pull it, and we watched the tower collapse and later issues a statement that he meant pull the firefighters out of the building even though there were no firefighters in the building before the collapse. Who refers to firefighters as it anyways? Even John Kerry was confused whether WTC7 was taken down by controlled demolition as shown in the link above.
Im not saying anyone is smarter than anyone else, but we have got to pay attention to what is going on!! How many times would you let your girlfriend or wife lie to you before you stopped believing anything she said? This government lies to us all the time and is shrouded in secrecy. Have we lost our nerves as a free people? After all the deceit, scandal, and corruption from D.C., do we still just turn our backs and trust our all-mighty government, controlled by career politicians and corporate lobbyists to take care of us? Whenever they take a freedom away, we never get it back!! The Bill of Rights has been shredded, the Constitution according to Bush is just a goddamned piece of paper. The so-called conservative Bush administration is spending money like a drunken sailor yet Congress is supposed to control our budget. Not only is our southern border wide open but we prosecute Border Patrol Agents and throw them in prison for 12 years when they were just doing their job!! We have become completely dependant on cheap Chinese trinkets built by slave labor yet we are told it is a free market. Detention centers are being built all over the country just waiting for some disaster to fill them up. We are using mercenaries like BlackWater (oil) security and calling them contractors. Currently we have 120,000 BlackWater contractors in Iraq. We pay contractors 6 times the amount a soldier receives and when a soldier comes home wounded, our Veterans Hospitals are not equipped nor receive the proper funding to handle them. This country is being destroyed on purpose in the name of globalization. Our infrastructure paid by tax dollars is being sold to private foreign industries. Our National Parks are being held as collateral for our debt under the UN as World Heritage Sites. Yet as soon as someone says New World Order, everyone gasps and denies that such a thing exists, even though it says Norvo Ordo Seclorum on the back of our dollar bill!!! But it could never happen to us in America!!! It is happening right now and no one seems to notice. We were built on self reliance and individualism yet over 53% of this population is receiving a government paycheck whether through labor or welfare. And who would ever bite the hand that feeds them? Our currency is no longer respected around the world and frankly neither is this country. This is no accident, it is not just a few mistakes or bad decision making, it is not liberalism or conservativism, it is the deliberate destruction of America from the inside.
You want to know what happened on 9-11? It was the beginning of WWIII. WWI they gave us the League of Nations, WWII they gave us the UN, WWIII they will give us a global government whether you like it or not.
Albert Pike was a Confederate General during the Civil War. He was also the founder of the KKK yet he is the only Confederate General to have his statue in Washington D.C. He said in 1870 that it would require three world wars in order to create a one world government. The third war should be a religious war consisting of Christians and Jews fighting against Muslims. People will become so sick of monotheistic religion that they will allow government to become their god.
Conspiracy or Coincidence? If you believe it is just coincidence, we will continue on a path toward internal suicide under the guise of democracy with no accountability rather than a constitutional republic as was originally intended by our founding fathers.
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Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #36 on:
June 26, 2007, 08:38:59 PM »
Quote from: DogBrian on June 26, 2007, 02:00:57 PM
The Purdue Study is not an independent investigation but was funded by the NSF or National Science Foundation which is a governmental organization that recently was granted an increase which doubled their annual budget to $6 billion.
The head of the NSF is Arden L. Bement, Jr. who worked for the DoD and on DARPA programs.
The director of the Purdue study is Mete A. Sozen, Ph.D., S.E. who served on the ASCE team that studied the OKC bombing.
****So what? Do you know what "peer reviewed" means?****
**The burden of proof is on you. You're making the assertion. So, again, what happened on 9/11? It's a simple question.**
Sure GM, it may be a simple question but would require a complicated answer. And then of course you would want sources (and rightly so) for every detail, which would be exhaustive. It is far more constructive for me to simply point out inconsistencies and lies within the official version. I think your mind is made up in either case. That doesnt bother me at all.
****It would require you to give a coherent narrative of the events of 9/11 with corroborative evidence. Something you and the other "Truther" loons can't do. Here is a simple exercise, prove to me you weren't part of the 9/11 conspiracy. Have fun proving a negative.....
It seems like you are taking this a little too personally. ** Let me guess, you're just much smarter than us.....** This gave me flashbacks of fighting on a preschool playground!!
****If you had a grasp of deductive logic, geopolitics and physics above that level of education, you couldn't be a truther.****
Im not saying there arent jihadists. Of course there is, but jihadists are not the real danger.
****Ah, it's so much more comforting to imagine that "the real enemy" is a room full of rich white guys rather than millions of savages across the globe, isn't it?****
Funny how the Patriot Act was rushed through Congress without any legislators reading the bill.
****Ever read legislation? Very few legislators ever do, they have employees who do that. The size and complexity of modern legislation is overwhelming. In the crisis post-9/11 are you surprised the patriot act was passed? BTW, I think it was good legislation.****
Strange how PNAC called for a catalyzing event like a New Pearl Harbor in 2000 to propel our military into the 21st century and was signed by neo-cons like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz.
****SO what?****
. Mohammed Attas passport flys unscathed through the burning wreckage and onto the streets of New York to be immediately identified as one of the hijackers.
****It wasn't immediately identified, there were tons of debris scattered everywhere. Debris scattered from the impact WOULDN'T have burned due to it having been thrown clear. A TRAINED investigator knows this.****
The FBI already had names of hijackers within hours of the crash even though they were not listed on the flight manifests.
****Cite your source.****
The government refuses to issue any meaningful video footage of the Pentagon crash. The wreckage of Flight 93 being reduced to nothing larger than pieces the size of phonebooks spread out over 5 miles and no identifiable body parts yet they tell us it collided with the ground.
****In your experience and training in the field of aviation accident investigation, what should the crash site look like?****
(BTW the wreckage of Flight 93 is being stored in a vault underground at Iron Mountain rather than being reconstructed by the hands of the FAA or TSA which is SOP for an airplane accident)
****The TSA has NOTHING to do with avaiation crash investigation, and as a matter of fact DID NOT EXIST on 9/11 so i'm not sure how they were supposed to investigate the crash. The FAA isn't the investigative agency either. Sorry, didn't mean to get any reality on your fantasy.****
Three Skyscrapers falling to the ground at free fall speed (no resistance by the lower floors or the 47 steel columns) in one day in which one of the towers was not hit by a plane.
****Really? Who made the tv footage I watched? Lucasfims? How about all the New Yorkers that watch the planes impact firsthand? Part of the conspiracy too? I talked with a Manhattan resident who saw the whole thing firsthand. I guess he was a CIA plant, right?****
Never in the history of steel skyscrapers has this happened.
****You mean there weren't other 9/11 attacks before 9/11? Wow, that's a brilliant insight! Very compelling arguement there!****
Our leaders telling us that they never conceived of such an attack even though there is ample proof otherwise.
****How many elected leaders have any degree of training and background in anti-terrorism or counterterrorism? Pre-9/11, this wasn't a topic on anyone's mind outside of those specialists in those fields. The Clinton administration went through both terms without doing more than some token missile attacks on empty tents and a phamaceutical factory. The FIRST WTC attack was in 1993. Why then? Why didn't Clinton visit the site, even though he was in New Jersey at the time? Bojinka was hatched during the Clinton administration and Clinton let al qaeda spread it's tentacles around the world. Conspiracy?
How much evidence does one need to smell a cover-up?
****Words mean things, they have actual definitions. You are misusing the word "EVIDENCE".****
ev·i·dence [ev-i-duhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -denced, -denc·ing.
1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
2. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.
3. Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.
verb (used with object)
4. to make evident or clear; show clearly; manifest: He evidenced his approval by promising his full support.
5. to support by evidence: He evidenced his accusation with incriminating letters.
6. in evidence, plainly visible; conspicuous: The first signs of spring are in evidence.
[Origin: 12501300; ME (n.) < MF < L évidentia. See evident, -ence]
Synonyms 3. information, deposition, affidavit. Evidence, exhibit, testimony, proof refer to information furnished in a legal investigation to support a contention. Evidence is any information so given, whether furnished by witnesses or derived from documents or from any other source: Hearsay evidence is not admitted in a trial. An exhibit in law is a document or article that is presented in court as evidence: The signed contract is Exhibit A. Testimony is usually evidence given by witnesses under oath: The jury listened carefully to the testimony. Proof is evidence that is so complete and convincing as to put a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt: proof of the innocence of the accused. 4. demonstrate.
****Now, let's look at the word "ALLEGATION".****
al·le·ga·tion [al-i-gey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
1. the act of alleging; affirmation.
2. an assertion made with little or no proof.
3. an assertion made by a party in a legal proceeding, which the party then undertakes to prove.
4. a statement offered as a plea, excuse, or justification.
[Origin: 13751425; late ME < L allég?ti?n- (s. of allég?ti?), equiv. to allég?t(us), ptp. of allég?re to adduce in support of a plea (al- al- + -lég?re, deriv. of léx law; see legal) + -i?n- -ion]
Synonyms 1, 2. charge, accusation; claim, contention.
****Do you understand the difference now?****
First they told us the passengers of Flight 93 were communicating via cell phone.
****Who is "they"?****
When it was shown that cell phones do not normally work at those altitudes and at that speed, the government recanted their statement and said that onboard airphones, not cell phones, were being used even though one of the calls they say came from the bathroom.
****Cite your source.****
First Larry Silverstein says pull it, and we watched the tower collapse and later issues a statement that he meant pull the firefighters out of the building even though there were no firefighters in the building before the collapse. Who refers to firefighters as it anyways? Even John Kerry was confused whether WTC7 was taken down by controlled demolition as shown in the link above.
****So, now John Kerry is part of the conspiracy too? So exactly how many people were involved in the "conspiracy"?****
Im not saying anyone is smarter than anyone else, but we have got to pay attention to what is going on!!
****Howabout paying attention to the websites i've posted that demolish all your bogus claims?****
How many times would you let your girlfriend or wife lie to you before you stopped believing anything she said? This government lies to us all the time and is shrouded in secrecy.
****Wow, that's a sophisticated analysis.
If there is a nation with a greater degree of transparency in it's government i'd like to know about it. Please cite the nation or nations with a greater degree of open records laws.****
Have we lost our nerves as a free people? After all the deceit, scandal, and corruption from D.C., do we still just turn our backs and trust our all-mighty government, controlled by career politicians and corporate lobbyists to take care of us?
****Wow, chest thumping rhetoric! Aside from cutting and pasting from fringe websites, what have YOU done?****
Whenever they take a freedom away, we never get it back!!
****Please explain in detail what freedom you don't have now that you did pre-9/11.****
The Bill of Rights has been shredded, the Constitution according to Bush is just a goddamned piece of paper.
****Please cite your source. I really want to see this quote.****
The so-called conservative Bush administration is spending money like a drunken sailor yet Congress is supposed to control our budget. Not only is our southern border wide open but we prosecute Border Patrol Agents and throw them in prison for 12 years when they were just doing their job!!
****Destroying evidence of a shooting falls outside the job description of any law enforcement officer. That's what jammed up Ramos and Compean.****
We have become completely dependant on cheap Chinese trinkets built by slave labor yet we are told it is a free market. Detention centers are being built all over the country just waiting for some disaster to fill them up.
****Really? Where? Show me.****
We are using mercenaries like BlackWater (oil) security and calling them contractors.
****Blackwater's name has nothing to do with oil. Can you tell me the actual origin? Crafty knows someone who was with Blackwater from the early days. Contractors do lots of jobs for the federal gov't because it's cheaper and easier in many cases. I've worked as a contract employee for the USG several times.****
Currently we have 120,000 BlackWater contractors in Iraq.
****What's the your source for this number?****
We pay contractors 6 times the amount a soldier receives and when a soldier comes home wounded, our Veterans Hospitals are not equipped nor receive the proper funding to handle them.
****Contractor aren't covered by the USG's infastructure. If they are wounded or killed, they don't get a .mil retirement or benefits. They take the chances in exchange for the money. The USG does it because it's cheaper.****
This country is being destroyed on purpose in the name of globalization.
****On purpose is again, your assertion.****
Our infrastructure paid by tax dollars is being sold to private foreign industries. Our National Parks are being held as collateral for our debt under the UN as World Heritage Sites. Yet as soon as someone says New World Order, everyone gasps and denies that such a thing exists, even though it says Norvo Ordo Seclorum on the back of our dollar bill!!!
****It says "NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM"
Translating NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM
Novus means: new, young, novel.
Ordo means: row, series, order.
Seclorum means: of the ages, of the generations, of the centuries.
An accurate translation of Novus Ordo Seclorum is "A New Order of the Ages," but the meaning of this motto is better understood when seen in its original context.
NOTE: Novus ordo seclorum does not properly translate into "new world order," which is an English phrase that, if converted to Latin, would not be novus ordo seclorum. Seclorum is a plural form (new worlds order?), and Thomson specifically said the motto refers to "the new American era" commencing in 1776.
****We'll put down Latin as another thing you don't understand.****
But it could never happen to us in America!!! It is happening right now and no one seems to notice. We were built on self reliance and individualism yet over 53% of this population is receiving a government paycheck whether through labor or welfare.
****But you don't like contractors either....****
And who would ever bite the hand that feeds them? Our currency is no longer respected around the world and frankly neither is this country.
****So the rich conspirators are trying to bankrupt themselves?****
This is no accident, it is not just a few mistakes or bad decision making, it is not liberalism or conservativism, it is the deliberate destruction of America from the inside.
You want to know what happened on 9-11? It was the beginning of WWIII. WWI they gave us the League of Nations, WWII they gave us the UN, WWIII they will give us a global government whether you like it or not.
****The UN couldn't organize a backyard picnic, the league of nations was even more worthless, so if the "one world gov't" is anything like those entities i'm not scared.****
Albert Pike was a Confederate General during the Civil War. He was also the founder of the KKK yet he is the only Confederate General to have his statue in Washington D.C.
****Albert Pike was NOT the founder of the KKK. The founders were: Confederate Civil War veterans Captain John C. Lester, Major James R. Crowe, John D. Kennedy, Calvin Jones, Richard R. Reed, Frank O. McCord. It's well documented, look it up. abovetopsecret.com ISN'T a good source of information.****
He said in 1870 that it would require three world wars in order to create a one world government. The third war should be a religious war consisting of Christians and Jews fighting against Muslims. People will become so sick of monotheistic religion that they will allow government to become their god.
****Again, let's see the source documents here.****
Conspiracy or Coincidence? If you believe it is just coincidence, we will continue on a path toward internal suicide under the guise of democracy with no accountability rather than a constitutional republic as was originally intended by our founding fathers.
Show me EVIDENCE.
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #37 on:
June 29, 2007, 06:12:26 PM »
I'm rather bored with this pissing match between you and me GM. You asked me to give you explanations in my own words which I informally did in the last post. We disagree on so much. That is fine with me.
But I will defend a few things that I mentioned. I don't care to discuss them further with you. But if anyone else has something to offer for or against my position I will gladly respond.
The KKK was founded in the early 1830's by one of the Rothschilds. At the time it was called The Knights of the Golden Circle which John Wilkes Boothe was a member. The KGC later became the KKK. You may be right that Albert Pike was not a founder. But he is listed as Chief Judicial Officer in 1905. His statue can be found in D.C. He said this in 1871.
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam and political Zionism mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
As for Bush saying the Constitution is just a 'goddamned piece of paper' it can be found here.
The original report was from Capital Hill Blue if you have the desire to read the article.
Detention Centers.....
and for locations of FEMA camps....
Not sure if that is the best source or not but your own research will lead you to the same conclusion.
FBI had names of hijackers within hours.....September 11, 2001: Existing Files on Hijackers Enables Investigation to Start Within Hours of Attacks
One day after 9/11, the New York Times will report that FBI agents in Florida investigating the hijackers quickly descended on flight schools, neighborhoods and restaurants in pursuit of leads. At one flight school, students said investigators were there within hours of Tuesdays attacks. [New York Times, 9/13/2001] Also on September 12, the Times will report, Authorities said they had also identified accomplices in several cities who had helped plan and execute Tuesdays attacks. Officials said they knew who these people were and important biographical details about many of them. They prepared biographies of each identified member of the hijack teams, and began tracing the recent movements of the men. [New York Times, 9/13/2001] In September 2002, 9/11 victims relative Kristen Breitweiser, testifying before the 9/11 Congressional Inquiry, will cite these news reports and will ask, How did the FBI know exactly where to go only a few hours after the attacks? How did they know which neighborhoods, which flight schools and which restaurants to investigate so soon in the case? How are complete biographies of the terrorists, and their accomplices, created in such short time? Did our intelligence agencies already have open files on these men? Were they already investigating them? Could the attacks of September 11th been prevented? [US Congress, 9/18/2002] In at least some cases, it appears that US intelligence did quickly access existing files on the hijackers. The Washington Post reports, In the hours after Tuesdays bombings, investigators searched their files on [Satam] Al Suqami and [Ahmed] Alghamdi, noted the pairs ties to [Nabil] al-Marabh and launched a hunt for him. A top Customs official claims that by checking flight manifests and comparing them with other information such as watch lists, he is able to determine the names of all 19 hijackers by 11:00 a.m.(see (11:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [Washington Post, 9/21/2001]
The NTSB investigates airline crashes. My mistake, NOT the TSA or FAA. Like I said it was my own words and I wrote that rant offline in an informal fashion. But here it is from the NTSB regarding Flight 93.
"The Safety Board did not determine the probable cause and does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket. The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 are under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. The Safety Board provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and any material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI."
Cellphones on airplanes.....
Why would they be developing the technology if cell phones already work inflight?
And also this test after 9-11 on cell phones in the sky
Mercenaries/Armed 'contractors' in Iraq..... Where did I get 120,000? Some reports say as many as 25,000 armed private security.
but what I read recently, possibly in a magazine, there are 30,000 front line armed contractors with 90,000 support/logistics for the armed security in Iraq.
There are no official reports on the amount of 'contractors' in Iraq or the amount of deaths of 'contractors'. Blackwater keeps that secret. I have problems with using Blackwater secuirty. They have less accountablility than the military. Blackwater hides behind the corporate veil so to speak.
As for the BP's that went to jail for shooting the DHS informant drug smuggler......If you follow worldnetdaily.com they reported multiple times about the prosecutors doctoring evidence for a conviction. One article.
But there are multiple cases of BP's going to jail for doing their jobs. Once again Jerome Corsi really does his homework.
****Ever read legislation? Very few legislators ever do, they have employees who do that. The size and complexity of modern legislation is overwhelming. In the crisis post-9/11 are you surprised the patriot act was passed? BTW, I think it was good legislation.****
Yes I have read legislation. And you made my point exactly. Modern legislation is overwhelming. And I think the Patriot Act is anything but patriotic. Similar to the enabling act that Hitler issued after the Richtstag fire.
If only a lawyer can understand the law, then only lawyers should have to follow it.
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #38 on:
June 29, 2007, 06:30:39 PM »
Video compilation of reports of explosions and suspicious devices in the towers. About 10 minutes long.
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Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #39 on:
June 29, 2007, 07:00:41 PM »
"The KKK was founded in the early 1830's by one of the Rothschilds. At the time it was called The Knights of the Golden Circle which John Wilkes Boothe was a member. The KGC later became the KKK. You may be right that Albert Pike was not a founder. But he is listed as Chief Judicial Officer in 1905. His statue can be found in D.C. He said this in 1871."
****Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Got more reality on your fantasy again.****
Ku Klux Klan
Encyclopedia Article
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Article Outline
Introduction; Original Targets and Tactics; Invisible Empire, Knights of the Ku Klux Klan; Recent Activity
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Ku Klux Klan, secret terrorist organization that originated in the Southern states during the period of Reconstruction following the American Civil War (1861-1865) and was reactivated on a wider geographic basis in the 20th century. The original Klan was organized in Pulaski, Tennessee, during the winter of 1865 to 1866, by six former Confederate army officers who gave their society a name adapted from the Greek word kuklos (circle). Although the Ku Klux Klan began as a prankish social organization, its activities soon were directed against the Republican Reconstruction governments and their leaders, both black and white, which came into power in the South in 1867. See also Terrorism.
Original Targets and Tactics
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The Klansmen regarded the Reconstruction governments as hostile and oppressive. They also generally believed in the innate inferiority of blacks and therefore mistrusted and resented the rise of former slaves to a status of civil equality and often to positions of political power. Thus, the Klan became an illegal organization committed to destroying the Reconstruction governments from the Carolinas to Arkansas. Attired in robes or sheets and wearing masks topped with pointed hoods, the Klansmen terrorized public officials in efforts to drive them from office and blacks in general to prevent them from voting, holding office, and otherwise exercising their newly acquired political rights. When such tactics failed to produce the desired effect, their victims might be flogged, mutilated, or murdered. These activities were justified by the Klan as necessary measures in defense of white supremacy and the inviolability of white womanhood.
A secret convention of Klansmen, held in Nashville, Tennessee, in 1867, adopted a declaration of principles expressing loyalty to the United States Constitution and its government and declaring the determination of the Klan to protect the weak, the innocent and the defenseless ...; to relieve the injured and oppressed; [and] to succor the suffering .... The convention designated the Klan as an Invisible Empire and provided for a supreme official, called Grand Wizard of the Empire, who wielded virtually autocratic power and who was assisted by ten Genii. Other principal officials of the Klan were the Grand Dragon of the Realm, who was assisted by eight Hydras; the Grand Titan of the Dominion, assisted by six Furies; and the Grand Cyclops of the Den, assisted by two Nighthawks.
From 1868 to 1870, while federal occupation troops were being withdrawn from the Southern states and radical regimes replaced with Democratic administrations, the Klan was increasingly dominated by the rougher elements in the population. The local organizations, called klaverns, became so uncontrollable and violent that the Grand Wizard, former Confederate general Nathan B. Forrest, officially disbanded the Klan in 1869. Klaverns, however, continued to operate on their own. In 1871 Congress passed the Force Bill to implement the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guaranteeing the rights of all citizens. In the same year President Ulysses S. Grant issued a proclamation calling on members of illegal organizations to disarm and disband; thereafter hundreds of Klansmen were arrested. The remaining klaverns gradually faded as the political and social subordination of blacks was reestablished.
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #40 on:
June 29, 2007, 07:06:10 PM »
****Here is Brian's supporting document for his alleged presidential quote.****
"Goddamn Piece of Paper"
Washington, DC. Dec 14th, 2005 ---- There are multiple reports flying round DC that if true need to be addressed by both Houses of Congress in an Impeachment hearing. President Bush, who many believe is becoming more unstable every day is reported to have had the following exchanges during a meeting with Congressional leaders according to Doug Thompson, reporting in Capitol Hill Blue:
"GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.
I dont give a goddamn, Bush retorted. Im the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way.
Mr. President, one aide in the meeting said. There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution.
Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, Bush screamed back. Its just a goddamned piece of paper!
Doug Thompson wrote that he had talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution a goddamned piece of paper."
That conversation if it did take place deserves a groveling apology at least, and resignation if he had moral scruples. He needs to broadcast his apology to the American people immediately, without hundreds of military and flags as "Made for TV" backdrops.
This is not an isolated instance of instability. There are many reports of alcohol impaired bouts where the man responsible for the Nuclear Trigger couldn't even handle a Pretzel.
I sincerely hope these reports are not accurate, and that they were misquoted.
If not this is serious, and needs attention.
****Wow, that went without winning the Pulitzer. Shocking!!!****
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #41 on:
June 29, 2007, 07:49:49 PM »
****Wow, the amazing thing is the idea this administration would ever consider anything but amnesty for illegal aliens. This is supposed to be evidence of your conspiracy theory how exactly?****
Halliburton Subsidiary Gets Contract to Add Temporary Immigration Detention Centers
By RACHEL L. SWARNS
Published: February 4, 2006
WASHINGTON, Feb. 3 The Army Corps of Engineers has awarded a contract worth up to $385 million for building temporary immigration detention centers to Kellogg Brown & Root, the Halliburton subsidiary that has been criticized for overcharging the Pentagon for its work in Iraq.
KBR would build the centers for the Homeland Security Department for an unexpected influx of immigrants, to house people in the event of a natural disaster or for new programs that require additional detention space, company executives said. KBR, which announced the contract last month, had a similar contract with immigration agencies from 2000 to last year.
The contract with the Corps of Engineers runs one year, with four optional one-year extensions. Officials of the corps said that they had solicited bids and that KBR was the lone responder.
A spokeswoman for Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Jamie Zuieback, said KBR would build the centers only in an emergency like the one when thousands of Cubans floated on rafts to the United States. She emphasized that the centers might never be built if such an emergency did not arise.
"It's the type of contract that could be used in some kind of mass migration," Ms. Zuieback said.
A spokesman for the corps, Clayton Church, said that the centers could be at unused military sites or temporary structures and that each one would hold up to 5,000 people.
"When there's a large influx of people into the United States, how are we going to feed, house and protect them?" Mr. Church asked. "That's why these kinds of contracts are there."
Mr. Church said that KBR did not end up creating immigration centers under its previous contract, but that it did build temporary shelters for Hurricane Katrina evacuees.
Federal auditors rebuked the company for unsubstantiated billing in its Iraq reconstruction contracts, and it has been criticized because of accusations that Halliburton, led by Dick Cheney before he became vice president, was aided by connections in obtaining contracts. Halliburton executives denied that they charged excessively for the work in Iraq.
Mr. Church said concerns about the Iraq contracts did not affect the awarding of the new contract.
Representative Henry A. Waxman, Democrat of California, who has monitored the company, called the contract worrisome.
"With Halliburton's ever expanding track record of overcharging, it's hard to believe that the administration has decided to entrust Halliburton with even more taxpayer dollars," Mr. Waxman said. "With each new contract, the need for real oversight grows."
In recent months, the Homeland Security Department has promised to increase bed space in its detention centers to hold thousands of illegal immigrants awaiting deportation. In the first quarter of the 2006 fiscal year, nearly 60 percent of the illegal immigrants apprehended from countries other than Mexico were released on their own recognizance.
Domestic security officials have promised to end the releases by increasing the number of detention beds. Last week, domestic security officials announced that they would expand detaining and swiftly deporting illegal immigrants to include those seized near the Canadian border.
Advocates for immigrants said they feared that the new contract was another indication that the government planned to expand the detention of illegal immigrants, including those seeking asylum.
"It's pretty obvious that the intent of the government is to detain more and more people and to expedite their removal," said Cheryl Little, executive director of the Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center in Miami.
Ms. Zuieback said the KBR contract was not intended for that.
"It's not part of any day-to-day enforcement," she said.
She added that she could not provide additional information about the company's statement that the contract was also meant to support the rapid development of new programs.
Halliburton executives, who announced the contract last week, said they were pleased.
"We are especially gratified to be awarded this contract," an executive vice president, Bruce Stanski, said in a statement, "because it builds on our extremely strong track record in the arena of emergency management support."
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #42 on:
June 29, 2007, 08:12:53 PM »
"Detention Centers.....
and for locations of FEMA camps....
Not sure if that is the best source or not but your own research will lead you to the same conclusion."
I went to the afpn.org site and came to the conclusion that anyone that takes that website seriously is a slack-jawed moron. Just my opinion, of course....
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #43 on:
June 29, 2007, 08:27:39 PM »
So, according to the apfn.org, the concentration camps were built in the 90's. 2001 came and went. Why did President Bush go to all the time and expense of staging 9/11 (Faking aircraft collisions when it was bombs, but wouldn't just say the towers were bombed, because who'd believe you could rig demolition charges in the WTC w/out anyone noticing? I guess he wanted the challenge?) Now his second term in office is almost over. So the "Richtstag fire" came and went and President Bush is just procrastinating?
Why are all you "patriots" still running free and posting your articles then? The concentration camps are waiting, the patriot act has been law for years now. Where is the roundup?
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #44 on:
June 30, 2007, 02:08:16 AM »
It would be foolish and ignorant to assume that the worlds greatest superpower would not have contingency plans to protect itself from internal resistance whether justified or not.
If you pay attention to what you read you would find the article on the Halliburton detention centers reads...
KBR would build the centers for the Homeland Security Department for an unexpected influx of immigrants, to house people in the event of a natural disaster or
for new programs that require additional detention space,
company executives said. KBR, which announced the contract last month, had a similar contract with immigration agencies from 2000 to last year.
You lack the ability to read into things, GM. You seem to have an image of our government that is completely infallible. That kind of attitude is more dangerous than anyone who would criticize, whether right or wrong.
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #45 on:
June 30, 2007, 02:44:29 AM »
So where from that do you get concentration camps for American citizens? News flash, correctional systems all over the US are over capacity and have been for years. Try getting an illegal alien arrested on a state charge picked up by ICE (Formerly INS). They'll tell you they don't have the space to put them.
"You lack the ability to read into things, GM."
****No, I grasp the difference between reality and internet bullshit.****
"You seem to have an image of our government that is completely infallible. "
****No, I know the reality of our government. Even if the USG wanted to pull off some 9/11 conspiracy it couldn't and 5 minutes after the first planning meeting it would have been leaked to the press. Nixon's "plumbers" couldn't pull off a simple black wiretapping job, Kennedy couldn't kill Castro, Regan's Iran-Contra mess was on tv for months, Slick Willie couldn't keep a blow job quiet but somehow 9/11 was the US Gov't shining moment of skill. Riiiiiight. I could tell hours of gov't waste and stupidity i've seen firsthand but for that one day in Sept. suddenly the USG has it's shit wired together. Suuuuure.
"That kind of attitude is more dangerous than anyone who would criticize, whether right or wrong."
****As usual you don't get it. I've spent my entire adult life working for one level or another of gov't. I have actual experience and life experience. I sort through truth and lies for a living, i've been places and done things. You found a worldview that makes you feel important and you just ignore everything that doesn't reaffirm this worldview, thus you claim all sorts of crackpot things even though I suspect at some level even you know it's bogus.****
****Post-9/11, Bush had 80-90% approval. Why did he piss it all away? What's the point of the "Reichtstag fire" if you don't use that moment to seize power? Let me guess, he's waiting until he hits 16% approval ratings before he moves? I used to be one of his biggest supporters, now i'm counting the months until we get a new president. Still he's smart enough to pull off 9/11 but too dumb to take advantage? Please explain.****
Posts: 34
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #46 on:
June 30, 2007, 07:02:30 AM »
Let me get some things straight with you. I didnt come to any conclusions without a whole lot of research. A lot of my knowledge did not come from internet bullshit but from books. Im still young but have immense life experience as well including 11 years of teaching rock climbing internationally. I traveled and climbed in Nepal, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Mexico and Peru. I also voted for Bush both times. Up until 2 years ago, I listened to Michael Savage and Hannity and thought like most conservative republicans. When 9-11 happened I wanted to kick ass and let God sort out the dead.
Ive poured over books and essays from authors like Lysander Spooner, Frederic Bastiat, Albert Pike, Boston T Party, Vin Suprynowicz, Ayn Rand, Gary Allen etc I am fortunate enough to have access to my Grandmothers library of old books dating back to the 1920s and old history books before it was renamed social science.
I always knew something was wrong but could never put my finger on it.
I was exposed to the Alex Jones documentary Martial Law: 9-11 Rise of the Police State (available on google video) 2 years ago. I took notes throughout the 3 hour doc and spent 2 weeks fact checking all the outrageous claims he made. Everything checked out. My worldview changed dramatically from that point on. I hadn't even concieved that 0-11 was anything other than 19 hijackers with plastic knives before then.
I progressed into reading about libertarians and the sovereignty movement in America. More conclusions began to form in my mind. I ended up buying a Law Dictionary so I could sort through the mounds of legal language. I realized that America has three languages, slang, formal, and legal. Good luck communicating in court without some knowledge of legal English.
The ideals of freedom and individual sovereignty of the past no longer exist in the minds of men today. We no longer think of ourselves as human beings but as legal persons, human resources or human capital. It is evident in the way we have allowed government to turn God given inalienable rights into privileges. Freedom of travel, freedom to sell your labor, freedom to own a pet, even the freedom to defend oneself, are all privileges which require taxes and regulations.
We can be charged with a crime or infraction even though there are no damages. A fictitious person such as THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA can bring charges against us. Even the Magna Carta states that a public official cannot make an arrest without a complaint from a citizen. In the past a sheriff could not make an arrest without a complaint from a citizen and a warrant from the judge or without having witnessed the crime in progress. There is no such discretion today. A petty example is jaywalking or not wearing a seatbelt. An official can impose a fine on you without any damages, due process, and when no crime was even committed.
Police officers are just corporate policy officers. The laws created by our legislature are not laws but commercial codes. For human beings, there is only one law above us. Gods law. The Constitution and all government is based on contract alone. When we contract by getting a drivers license we agree to abide by the terms of the Vehicle Code. When we contract with the state to be legally married, we agree to abide by the terms of the State Marriage Statutes.
The 13th amendment abolished slavery. The 14th amendment created a class of citizens called united states citizens intended for emancipated slaves. Not long after the 14th, the sovereign citizens of each state were deceived into becoming US Citizens.
Our whole legal system today is based on maritime/admirality/commercial law rather than common law. Our courts are legislative article II tribunals rather than article III common law courts.
This country has been in bankruptcy since 1933. Our legal tender is nothing more than a debt note rather than a valued currency. The more you have in your possession, the more you owe to the Federal Reserve since it has all been borrowed and we have to pay it back. Inflation is a hidden tax. Federal Reserve Notes are fiat resting on the faith that your neighbor will accept it.
Our birth registration is a legal document that creates a corporate existence (strawman) which is used as a transmitting utility to contract with the government. This registration is under federal jurisdiction and our future labor is offered as collateral for the national debt. HJR 192 of 1933. Our legal person or strawman is owned by the federal government though contract with the parents.
Since 1867 (act of 1867 and 1871), the united states of America seized to exist. The Bank of England purchased a 10 square mile of land in DC and called it UNITED STATES OF AMERICA INC. That is what our government is today. A corporation.
Our legislators have discovered (or it was intentionally built into the document) loopholes in the Constitution. The general welfare clause and the treaty clause both come to mind. They have used general welfare to impose itself into areas that were not expressly written into the Constitution. Our government is a monster in which there are occasional restrictions.
It may seem to others, especially you, that my way of thinking is just crackpot ideas. But they are grounded in an understanding of how our system works. We are not taught these things in school. Read about the Reese committee of 1953. Very little can be found about it on the internet but it exists in older books. Most recently I found it mentioned in an old Dan Smoot book from 1964. It explains how tax exempt foundations such as Ford and Carnegie Hall have controlled public education to fit a communist agenda.
My views on freedom are totally extreme today but would have been commonplace in this country 200 years ago. When our Constitution was created the people were above the Constitution and the government was the peoples servant. The people were ruled by common law alone. With the civil war and the 14th amendment and various other deceptions (social security, birth registration, income tax, the creation of corporations with the full rights and privileges of humans) we have allowed ourselves to become a slave class of citizens under the control of our government.
You ask what I have done besides chest thumping and cutting and pasting from truther websites? I repatriated as an American National rather than a US Citizen (look on a passport to see the difference), I cancelled all open contracts with the government thereby I am no longer under their jurisdiction, closed all bank accounts, I do not owe one penny to anyone. Essentially, I am a sovereign.
So you asked my opinion on why Bush didnt take advantage of his high ratings if 9-11 was his Reichstag fire? I dont think Bush is the endgame. His family bought a million acre plot in Paraguay next to the Moonies million acre plot. I believe he will flee when the time comes. I believe this country is being destroyed on purpose. I believe that once Bush is gone, people will be so relieved with a new President (I predict Obama and Gore on the winning ticket) and sick of our foreign policy that focus will shift to domestic socialized programs which will only further create more dependency on big government. Once that dependency is established, there will be tracking and control methods put in place such as National ID cards with RFID chips, mandatory GPS devices in new cars, elimination of cash, more gun control legislation etc. The war on terror will never end. We are a nation controlled by fear. America cannot be ruled by a dictator yet, we are too stubborn. We have to be conditioned to the point were we ask for our own enslavement.
I believe that we will be under British rule once again. The Treaty of Paris was a treaty, not a surrender. The Revolutionary War was never finished. The terms of the treaty granted us our sovereignty from Britain but with Britain controlling our commerce. I also believe that the white tie affair with Bush and the Queen was symbolic of a white flag surrender and coincided with the Transatlantic Economic Integration which received no media converage whatsoever and can only be found on the whitehouse.gov website.
Call it crackpot ideas if you wish, but time will tell. I had a great time sparring with you GM, but posting on forums is not for me. Too time consuming, I feel I said what I wanted to say.
Howling Dog
Power User
Posts: 392
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #47 on:
June 30, 2007, 03:39:23 PM »
Woof Dog Brian, Thats an intresting post. First off I have no intention of debating with you. Though a question or two if I may.
You claim to be a soverign..... If I may ask, What type of work do you do? As a Soverign....what type of currency do you use to buy your or pay for your needs?
I would also be intrested to hear what all the the end game stuff means to you personally......by personally I mean when the bottom falls out.....what happens to you. Tell the truth
Howling Dog
Power User
Posts: 42558
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #48 on:
July 01, 2007, 08:01:27 AM »
Dog Brian:
First, I want to thank you for your excellent internet composure.
Second, I would like to say that we share many of the same concerns about the trajectory of our country.
Third, and this is said with love, IMO unfotunately you have mingled some profoundly unsound and inaccurate fringe nonsense into your thinking.
The Adventure continues,
Power User
Posts: 15536
Re: World Trade Center Tower 7
Reply #49 on:
July 01, 2007, 10:34:40 AM »
Just got off duty. Stuck for hours working a death investigation. I'd like to type more but i've got to get to sleep because i've got to get back to work to finish the initial report. I would add that there is no evidence of Bilderburger, Trilateral commission or Illuminati involvement at this time, but I haven't consulted with Alex Jones yet either.....
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