text:
Tuesday, March 24, 2009
And the winner is?
332 comments:1 – 200 of 332 Newer› Newest»
- fred said...
Monsieur Shane ...
yes , this is one of the reasons why i would say "ColdWet's plan" is doomed ...
not because anything else than :
each times one can answer a question about the Fpj , this answer leads itself to a hundred new questions ...!
Just Too many conflicting and opposite interests into the matter ...
the only one way to solve it : to burn even more cash to repay everyone needing (like NM State in need to have "some" returns to be able to show "no , it hasn't been ONLY a waste!") or willing ( about all who put cash or efforts into it) ...
with the credit-crisis and more important "Historic of Fpj" no way it can come from "already owners" who want it as cheap as possible !
(which is the main WHY they got in the story , in the first place !)
no need for it ! it has always amazed me that they could waste so much money on something which didn't even exist !!! (Air-Taxi-Jets)
what has been already done is worthless , so at least there is one good "question" with a "unique" answer :
Q:"do we need easa ?"
A: "No, what for ?"
- March 24, 2009 at 1:52 AM
- Beedriver said...
Post copied from previous thread
Possible Tailplane stall cause of PC12 crash?
If the PC12 had been loaded forward of the CG, especially with the skies etc in the cabin, and when it got slow, perhaps they suffered a tailplane stall. flap extension may have also triggered the sudden dive
A tailplane stall would have resulted in a severe pitch down. and the "80 or 90 deg nosedive into the ground" that was described.
If they were carrying some ice on the tail that would have made it worse even if the ice was just a light strip along the leading edge which would help make a stall start. the ice ridge would act as a stall strip I think. I have seen this ice effect many times in light rime on the leading edge of the wing and tail.
has any one looked at the W&B with a lot of skies etc in the aisle. when I go skiing it is normal for me to be personally carrying 80 lbs or more with skies boots and basic clothes etc. I usually figure 60 to 80 lbs per person of equipment.
Airplanes can carry a lot of extra baggage (IE Alaska) if within limits. My type Aerostar is ferried many times at 8000 lbs (1700 over gross) and still climbs at 1000 FPM but it must be loaded correctly
- March 24, 2009 at 3:56 AM
- Shane Price said...
It's not really about NEED anymore, I think it's about perception.
What will the owners pay for, if it's not the upgrades to AvioNG and FIKI, which are requirements for the EASA cert European sales require.
The funding for any new attempt has to come from SOMEWHERE and the easiest to 'get at' are those who are already pot committed.
Doing these upgrades gets you some way along the track to production of the aircraft, which might (or might not) be done profitably.
So, when you say 'why get EASA'? I say it will make a business plan more attractive to investment and banks.
EAC V 2.0 will require every single small element to go right to work, and that includes worldwide certification. You'd be truly amazed how many of the 60% depositors were outside North America, and they have to be the natural target market for any 'new' company.
- March 24, 2009 at 4:00 AM
- Beedriver said...
Re PC 12 CG
in thinking about the sudden dive into the ground, I feel the CG was too far forward would be the probable cause rather than too far back. As I understand from the experimental aircraft community. the only real problem with the CG moving aft (unless it is really off) is that the natural stability is reduced to the point where if you input a attitude change and let go of the controls it will not return to its naturally trimmed attitude. As I understand the specification for the rear limit is a stability criteria not a "will it fly" criteria
- March 24, 2009 at 4:05 AM
- Beedriver said...
What is a plan that would work to continue EA500 production?
In business my question is always focused on , given the present circumstances market, state of development, competition etc, what plan can work. what do we need to do to be successful and is it possible given my circumstances.
I am hampered in developing a complete plan, as I am not really an expert in the aviation market etc. as I am in the industrial laser market. However, from what I know, I am convinced there is a market for a personal twin engine jet. the Eclipse seems to fit the required specs very well except for the AVIO avionics and control system being far too expensive to upgrade and maintain in reasonable numbers.
I feel that a reasonable price for the assets is about $20,000,000 (probably the inventory cost)
then if you have about 25 million more to pay for a few of the right people to redesign to conventional controls and avionics and restart a small company and get to cash flow neutral, I think it could be done.
The company should start with 100 people or less. 40 is probably the right number for the first year. (Smaller is usually faster, more efficient and will actually get the job done.)
I think you actually have a chance of success if you can sell the finished airplane for 1.8 to 2 million and have a manufacturing cost of less than 1 million in 25 to 100 per year quantities.
There a lot of ifs there and possibly the biggest IF is having the right CEO with the knowledge and authority to get it done and not need to answer to a large group of stockholders. This type of job is best left to a few people with the right stuff rather than a large group of pretty good people. That is how the skunk works did it and the only way I think the EA500 can be resurrected.
Perhaps however Eclipse will go through several owners before there is a good group that purchases it. The problem is can it wait that long? from what I read there are several groups aiming at this market out there that with 45 million additional invested in their concept, could take over the market and dominate it. The question is; who will get there first with a good fully complete airplane at the right price. Whoever it is will own the niche.
- March 24, 2009 at 4:45 AM
- bill e. goat said...
(Not a BD-x driver, I assume, nor a "Hornet" driver ? :)
WT posted favorable comments about the PC-12's handling characteristics.
You point out several interesting possible contributors:
a) Unusually heavy baggage load (added with WT's comments about range, this seems plausible)
b) Possibility of aft CG (WT mentions the problem is usually fwd CG, but with so many seats filled, and with a lot of luggage...)
c) Possibility of aft center of lift- when the flaps were extended, resulting in a nose-over.
The ground reports of "erratic maneuvering" would might support the aft-cg problem (poor stability), or Gadfly's observations about partial pilot incapacitation.
Lots of possibilities- good practice to consider how we would individually evaluate each possible contributor, and their combined effects, in our own worlds.
- March 24, 2009 at 5:56 AM
- fred said...
Monsieur shane ...
i don't have the same reading of situation ...
EASA was chased for starting a DayJet bis ...
for private use and private ownership , there is lots of way around ... (let's face it : before the N numbers aren't allowed anymore to fly in E.U. , the timeframe of Fpj will be over ...)
so such argument is MAINLY for financing purpose (as it was previously with EAC ...) only to LOOK better if some investors or bankers would be ignorant enough to do it again ...
as you wrote , Depositors were a lot out of USA ... but actually Depositors will remain depositors until new aircrafts can be produced ... which is even more dubious than just keeping the ALREADY owners flying legally ...
what i expressed as need is all the ones who will have to show something ...
as example :NM Gov. richardson , if only a single plane is ever built again , he will be able to blame whatever for the failure out of his judgment , both for EAC mngt and for the Bizz' plan (economic downturn , etc...)
keeping the illusion alive or at least having some reasons to show that any could be fooled ...
if there is nothing to show , it become more difficult ...
this is what i qualified as need .
i am sorry to disagree , but if a New Firm see the light (as right now nothing can be guaranteed) , it will be about keeping the ones already produced Flying that may even turn to be profitable ...
as producing again , or deliver the ones which were paid already at 60% :
with 100% of the price EAC couldn't make a kopeck of profit ... (ok , it is not a reference as even if the price would have been 10 times more , they would probably not made a kopeck of profit , either ;-) )
how comes a New Firm could produce the same product , getting ONLY 40% of the price , and not be destroyed by the amount it represent ?
it would be like asking a runner to compete a 110 meters hurdles race , with a few world champions , but having both legs tied together ... with an absolute obligation to be on podium !!
the 60%'s market is dead with the BK , so are all obligations toward those peoples ...
economic conditions are bad enough to scare the ones who have not understood , already
so why a New Firm would have to undergo the E.U. regulations , with all the works papers and money needed to serve eventual owners , since they can do it in some others (but still legal) ways ?
(once again for Privates : pros won't be interested for something , i have the personal feeling , there is already too much offer for too little demand !)
at the same time , competitors to Fpj are ready to sell , ready to deliver , even ready to bargain if need be ...
all of this for getting a plane that would not end-up as being more expensive than a Fpj ...
if you would look for a jet , taking into consideration that you have already been cheated by the Merry-Band and waited for too many years for a product which is not even finished ...
would you consider wasting some more months/years and money to get something half-backed for nearly the same price of an other which could be delivered fully finished and fully certified ?
you're right : only a question of perception ...!
therefor the need for EASA to a New Firm would be as foolish as it has been for EAC !
- March 24, 2009 at 5:59 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
An excellent summation Shane.
If current offers have not exceeded $10M, and the senior note holders want say 1.5 to 2X that, then the plane is all but dead because any plan based on acquiring the assets faces the issues you point out.
I believe there are legal ways for the owners to divorce themselves from any would-be robber-barons but that too will take money, about $10-12M - and a willingness to let real airplane people help with the problems.
Asking prices for Eclipsii are plummeting, well below cost for even the earliest of early adopters, and that is for low-time NG equipped planes.
The longer there is no support the more this drop will continue, and the more birds will go hard AOG due to lack of critical parts. If an AD comes out in the next 6 months kiss it all goodbye - and there may be issues that could cause this.
This will mark the death-spiral of the type - as confidence drops even further, utilization slows for all but the best-prepared owners (those who had the foresight to stock up on parts and maintenance training). Fire sale pricing will drop to current used Citation 501SP range, and the Citations will be bought instead.
No plan built on acquiring the assets and restarting production is workable IMO even under better economic conditions.
In current economic conditions, the owners have to consider what the cost of ownership is likely to be, excluding cost-of-money, excluding insurance, excluding training, excluding unscheduled maintenance, just the confiscatory palimony payments the various plans have suggested as the price of access to support.
This amounts to between $1M and almost $2M over the next 7-9 years for each owner, not including any upgrades, not including fuel, not including hangar.
Suddenly, the cheap jet becomes the financial equivalent of a sucking chest wound for all but the best prepared.
There are alternatives, and there may be a few more coming, but people will have to put aside questions of ego and be open to receiving help from experienced folks genuinely interested in providing it for a fair cost.
- March 24, 2009 at 6:56 AM
- Krupal said...
Hey CWMOR, ask Bob if he had either Dr Andres or Dr George at Parks. :)
If he did, I probably am using the same design techniques as he is. :D
- March 24, 2009 at 8:18 AM
- FreedomsJamtarts said...
BD wrote:
I feel that a reasonable price for the assets is about $20,000,000 (probably the inventory cost)
then if you have about 25 million more to pay for a few of the right people to redesign to conventional controls and avionics and restart a small company and get to cash flow neutral, I think it could be done.
Sorry BD, these are nonsensical WAG's. Lets look at one fact -ISS walked!
Do you know what Software certification costs? Do you know what flight test costs? Do you know how long these thing take?
Trying to do what you said (buying Ecorpse for $20 and restarting production with COTS avionics on a budget of $25M) is a worse recipe to end up $45M poorer than meeting Anna Nicole Smith in a bar, and buying her just on more drink for the road. At least with Anna you know who raped you :)
- March 24, 2009 at 8:34 AM
- BricklinNG said...
The value of the Eclipse assets is the discounted future value of any earnings that can be obtained by their use, less any additional capital that would need to be invested. The obvious income potential is in servicing and upgrading the existing jets. That income is will be maximized by asking the highest price that anyone owning a jet would rationally pay to keep his/her airplane serviced, flying, and to have it upgraded to the best possible electronics, FIKI, speed, etc.
So a secured lender will sell the assets only at such time as he thinks he is getting a capital sum that fully reflects the income potential of the assets. If an owners' group or a sympathetic soul wants to offer service, support, and upgrades at a price less than the maximum that an owner would rationally pay then that owners' group or sympathetic soul will not be able to offer as large a capital sum as someone who would charge "full boat." Therefore, the only bid that will succeed will be one that is associated with a "full boat" charge for support and upgrades.
The owners might say, "we'll offer a competitive price for the assets, but will accept a low return on our investment so that we can get our support and improvements at an acceptable (i.e. relatively low) price." OK, go ahead but you will be no further ahead to tie up your money at a near zero return than you would be to invest nothing and pay a relatively high price for service and upgrades.
- March 24, 2009 at 8:38 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Bob says yes and asks if you recall Prof's Trefney and Bondie?
Did you survive the hatchetmen?
- March 24, 2009 at 8:39 AM
- FreedomsJamtarts said...
BD wrote
I think you actually have a chance of success if you can sell the finished airplane for 1.8 to 2 million and have a manufacturing cost of less than 1 million in 25 to 100 per year quantities.
Another menaingless WAG. This is like saying you could be successful if you made thermonuclear powered Deloreans which run off rubbish and cost $3000 to produce. Yep, you'd be fantastically successful.
Unfortunately you can't make thermonuclear powered Deloreans for $3000 and you can make Eclipse's for $1M production costs.
Maybe in 20 years, maybe in 50 years, the technologies will be in place to meet this price point, but it won't be an Ecorspe related organisation which gets there.
- March 24, 2009 at 8:41 AM
- Krupal said...
Haha, alas I was not around then. I just graduated from Parks in 2007 with a degree in AE as well. (I'm a young'in!)
Yes, I did survive the hatchetmen. :) Andres can still out-drink/out-chug everyone in the class. Doc George is still the best prof I've ever had. Design is still hard as ever (still making the wind-tunnel scale models and testing them, even at a college level). Actually, I'm proud to state that the model we made in 07 was used as the display model for Parks' 80 or 90 year celebration.
He still using George's design papers? I find they are still current and accurate, even at the Big B.
How long has it been since he ventured out of Parks? It's amazing how well the school prepares you for industry design work. I find myself often surprising even the veteran designers up in Everett with ideas/calculations.
- March 24, 2009 at 8:47 AM
- Dave said...
Profile Of A Former Eclipse Employee. I'd think this person (who was a parts supervisor) would be able to find work now - at least as a consultant to Eclipse owners. The article paints a bleak picture for this individual's employment outlook, but if they know how to get parts, they might be one of the Eclipse employees who has a better than average chance of at least getting some sort of income rather than being completely out of work.
- March 24, 2009 at 9:07 AM
- EclipsePilotOMSIV said...
I just wanted to drop you guys a line and inform you that I have joined the sales team for an aircraft solutions company. We specialize in the sales of aircraft in addition to providing opportunities for quarter and half shares of aircraft. In this tough economy it helps to have the ability to sell part of your aircraft to decrease your financial burden but allow you to still fly in your aircraft. If you are interested in upgrading your aircraft we also will sell an aircraft outright, and currently our inventory includes:
Factory new Cessna CJ3
Factory new Pilatus PC-12 NG
2004 Beech Premier I
Mitusbishi Diamond IA
I have access to a larger inventory with our sister company and aircraft that are currently not listed on the market. If there is a particular aircraft that fits your mission, I will be able to get it for you.
If you are interested, drop me a line at firstname.lastname@example.com
Thanks for your time.
- March 24, 2009 at 10:29 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Congrats Omsiv!
Landing a job in the current economy is a real accomplishment.
Best of luck in your endeavor.
- March 24, 2009 at 10:35 AM
- EclipsePilotOMSIV said...
Thanks Coldwet, you too.
- March 24, 2009 at 10:45 AM
- Dave said...
I just wanted to drop you guys a line and inform you that I have joined the sales team for an aircraft solutions company. We specialize in the sales of aircraft in addition to providing opportunities for quarter and half shares of aircraft. In this tough economy it helps to have the ability to sell part of your aircraft to decrease your financial burden but allow you to still fly in your aircraft.
Good luck! I went on the website and I see that the company is involved in 1031s and I just want to say be careful who your intermediary is. I'm still involved in litigation with LandAmerica for our client's real estate 1031. My warning is in no way an indictment against you or your company any more than it would be against myself or the family business that I'm involved in. Only use an intermediary who escrows the funds or else you might find yourself with months of litigation, only getting part of your fund back and 1031 might fall through defeating the whole purpose.
- March 24, 2009 at 11:20 AM
- Kathy said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 24, 2009 at 12:07 PM
- Kathy said...
Here is a site that lists all SBs and apparently offers (or will be offering) nav database refreshment. Could it be McConnell?
- March 24, 2009 at 12:10 PM
- airtaximan said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 24, 2009 at 12:18 PM
- bill e. goat said...
You read my mind.
(Pretty short book :)
- March 24, 2009 at 12:27 PM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
ATM, might I suggest redacting the guys address? A simple no and name of site owner would be enough.
- March 24, 2009 at 12:49 PM
- Orville said...
It's public info on the Ubernet.
Anyone can look it up.
- March 24, 2009 at 1:28 PM
- Orville said...
and - the registrant can pay to hide if they so desire.
- March 24, 2009 at 1:32 PM
- gadfly said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 24, 2009 at 2:30 PM
- gadfly said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 24, 2009 at 2:47 PM
- Kathy said...
DME's standing by to assist at any time....
- March 24, 2009 at 3:14 PM
- gadfly said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 24, 2009 at 3:22 PM
- JustinTime said...
Shane, You forgot to mention the Tech Services staff. They were a team you could always depend on 24/7. When an operator was in need of assistance the Eclipse Aviation Tech Services department was always there!
- March 24, 2009 at 3:46 PM
- Shane Price said...
Welcome to the blog, and an excellent choice of identity...
You forgot to mention the Tech Services staff.
I should also have mentioned people sued by EAC, or those who (wisely) decided to withdraw from the supply chain.
And still got sued.
I could even bang on about the various event organizers who gave EAC loads of opportunity to hook even more victims, in return for a 'wedge' of cash
But I just can't fit everyone in.
- March 24, 2009 at 3:53 PM
- bill e. goat said...
"I should also have mentioned people sued by EAC, or those who (wisely) decided to withdraw from the supply chain."
I think Mr. Mann also (wisely) decided to withdraw from the "supply chain".
- March 24, 2009 at 4:28 PM
- gadfly said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 24, 2009 at 4:28 PM
- airtaximan said...
if I tresspassed some etiquette by posting the guys info, feel free to delete
- March 24, 2009 at 4:53 PM
- airtaximan said...
Terrific original post... heart of the matter stuff.. nice summary.
Seems like we have a few gtoups trying for the assets or business:
Guess who, is who?
- March 24, 2009 at 4:56 PM
- gadfly said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 24, 2009 at 5:10 PM
- gadfly said...
After reading some of the things I wrote earlier, I realized they were in poor taste, especially in view of the events of the past week, and chose to delete them.
There is no excuse . . . and I hope to "think" before I commit thoughts to blog in the future.
- March 24, 2009 at 7:33 PM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
Dave linked to Profile Of A Former Eclipse Employee, for which the article's headline reads,
"A face of the recession: Laid off twice in less than two years".
On the balance, a pretty readable article, but it lost a lot of its punch by appearing on the same day we were introduced to Tsutomu Yamaguchi:
"Mr Yamaguchi was in Hiroshima on a business trip on August 6th, 1945, when a US B-29 dropped an atomic bomb on the city. He suffered serious burns to his upper body and spent the night in the city. He then returned to his hometown of Nagasaki just in time for the second attack."
Two thoughts:
1 - Tsutomu's now 93 years old. Just a guess: he also answers to the name 'Lucky'.
2 - I think I'd rather take my chances on being laid off twice in a year, than nuked twice in four days.
Would you like the combo?
- March 24, 2009 at 9:07 PM
- baron95 said...
dhtwice and lived to be 93 and counting?!?!!!???
And here we made such a big deal about Three Mile Island and used it as an excuse to dismantle and entire industry.
We have no balls.
- March 24, 2009 at 11:20 PM
- Shane Price said...
if I tresspassed some etiquette by posting the guys info, feel free to delete
I'm not sure about this. I know that when I 'headlined' the Johnsons home phone number (Ringtail, right after Wedge sued 'us') I was advised to mask it, which I did.
On the other hand, it's all public information, available via the internet, so anyone who want's it can dig it out anyway.
Put it another way, if you feel it adds to this blog, leave it there. If you can summarize your point without these 'gory details' then delete it.
I'm not minded to take action myself....
- March 25, 2009 at 1:31 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Nice website.
One aspect interested me:
"With enough interest we can keep you flying. As we start scheduling our first maintenance operation for the Second week in April, Please do not hesitate to contact us anytime at Eclipse 500 Service to schedule SB compliance, EFIS 1.3 downloads or even just a NAV Database update.
I thought EFIS 1.3 and the NAV database were property of Eclipse. I'm not sure about the IP that would be used to do maintenance- such as manuals, etc; was this sort of thing being "licensed"/franchised by EAC?
"Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with. Just so you know if we don't have the answer we can get it! As of now we are not affiliated with Eclipse Aviation and take no responsibility for their actions, we do however remain committed to the Aircraft itself, and remain as far away from PI as possible."
"Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with. Just so you know if we don't have the answer we can get it! As of now we are not affiliated with Eclipse Aviation and take no responsibility for their actions..."
(Well, EAC never took responsibility for their actions, either ! :)
I am confident that these are some of the best mechanics available, and the most ethical. I don't understand the process of maintaining an aircraft when the company is in limbo, and everything was so proprietary (not "secret", just not PMA'd), and releasing software updates (both nav databases and Avio) in the current situation is a puzzling process to me.
"We do however remain committed to the Aircraft itself, and remain as far away from PI as possible."
(What does this mean?)
CWMOR, good and prudent concern for the guy's privacy, but in this particular case, if anything, I think he will appreciate the extra avenues of contact, and owners will be able to establish his credentials. (Asking each other Q:"hey, you know this guy", A:"Yeah, this guy did a great job on blah blah").
- March 25, 2009 at 5:42 AM
- x said...
Google DOC spreadsheet of SB list with links to pdf versions
This spreadsheet links to the Service Bulletins hosted on the web. It is sorted by date.
To download pdf, navigate to the link text box, and click the double box icon that appears in the upper left corner of cell.
My opinion: It is strangely non-intuitive way of linking, but that is what Google has done.
This spreadsheet may break if the web source of the SB evaporates, or the host decides to correct the spelling of "Bulletin" in his directory.
Note I may keyword code the SB, which is why I left some columns open.
- March 25, 2009 at 7:33 AM
- bill e. goat said...
You almost got it-
DME = Descision Making Equipment
We all scoffed with smug distain, while Big Eg proceded with wreckless, feckless, wrathful determination in perfecting the work of mighty and mini ant algorithms.
With additional under the table funding from Al Mann, this has been packaged and is almost ready for market.
-On the shelf of your favorite store (CWMOR's gift shop, of course!!) in time for May graduation gifts- right beside the Fauxtrix.
- March 25, 2009 at 8:23 AM
- Kathy said...
Still don't understand why Designated Mechanic Examiners are standing by ready to help. FIKI and Avio 1.5 NG SBs are not on the list? It could just be my 60+ yr old eyes not seeing them. The FIKI SB would be an interesting read.
- March 25, 2009 at 8:28 AM
- airsafetyman said...
A Designated Maintenance Examiner is someone who gives the oral and practical parts of the Airframe and Powerplant exam to qualified students after they have passed the written exam. Maybe they are trying to show they have super-qualified people on board. If these people were serious they would align themselves with as established FAA-Certified Repair Station that is well-capitalized and has ample insurance and a sterling reputation. Such a facility may or may not be available in ABQ - I am guessing not.
- March 25, 2009 at 8:38 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Kathy and ATM,
Thanks for explaining what DME -arguably, conceivably, might mean- to those not interested in Wedge Balls. And for ruining my plan for the Spring Gift Shop Sales Spectacular event.
"We do however remain committed to the Aircraft itself, and remain as far away from PI as possible."
? Any idea what that means, the PI reference?
- March 25, 2009 at 8:49 AM
- Shadow said...
Silly goat, Pi is 3.14 with a bunch of other numbers after that. :~)
- March 25, 2009 at 9:09 AM
- Shadow said...
Seriously, goat, I think there is a clue in the last paragraph. PI appears to refer to Proprietary Information.
- March 25, 2009 at 9:13 AM
- julius said...
what is actually interesting?
"eclipse500service.com" what is that?
No names, no sddress,... reliable information? - no!
PMA-answer: Everything under construction...
P.S.: Perhaps a student site: "donate"!
- March 25, 2009 at 9:14 AM
- Shane Price said...
I deleted your post for 'anglo saxon' reasons.
The language you used was just a little too much for me...
- March 25, 2009 at 9:20 AM
- Dave said...
Who is Eclipse500Service.com? This shows that both numbers they provide in their contact information
used to belong to a car parts store. I'm not saying not to deal with them, just be sure who you are dealing with that you are in compliance with FAA regs.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:10 AM
- shawn said...
My Name is Shawn Dowden EAC MFG TECH.
It seems my phone has been flooded with email and phone calls this morning telling me how tacky the blog was for posting my personal information. I have been helping Customers with "some" loose ends. I am not trying to change the world or answer everyone's problems, nor am I trying to fight for PI technology. I will only help with what I can, and not make any promises I cannot keep. While the guys in suits fight with deep pockets for "And the winner is" the employees and the customers "are the biggest losers". We have all been caught in crossfire. The address that you have posted is my personal address, could you please remove. The site www.eclise500service.com has all contact information and I will be happy to discuss any problems that you may have with your aircraft to try and assist you through the chapter 7. The people involved are only techs and engineers that helped build the AC, we all want to see nothing more than the customer get what they paid for. Please respect our privacy and let me know if we can help.
As far as I am concerned:
I have been working on eclipse jets since AC SN49 I have operated propulsion tests, and final assembly on the last 140 or so AC. My trade is an 'Avionics' Tech, and I have been pulled into several other areas of aviation during my experience here at Eclipse. I have seen the evolution of this AC from Pre Avio ( Avidine, AC SN 0-100 ), to Garmin ( AC SN 266 ). After working on Air Bus family AC at an MRO I firmly believe VLJ's will be the next step in personal and corporate travel. I have run several of these AC on the ground I would really like to just expand myself. I am one of only a handful of personnel that can effectively trouble shoot this AC from nose to tail, while handling cooperate and senior management tasks issued to me. I was challenged to wear several hats at the same time from project management to executive assistant. I devoted half of my work week to working with Core Engineering on this aircraft creating more reliable/lean applications within our product and assembly. I eliminated failures on the line, by tracking problems to root causes and creating the action plans needed to resolve each issue. I was tasked to devote a lot of time lately to supply base, by visiting some of our suppliers and challenging them to help us become a stronger entity in the VLJ market. I was working with Eclipse supply base to ensure the integrity of our supply chain so that if ever did ramp back up in the future, we will not be held up by supply chain and our lack to understand "our" failures. I remained committed to the stronger business plan with a more what was supposed to be viable ramp schedule all the way to the end. This program came to a sudden halt when the senior investors filed for chapter 7 on 02/18/09. I was really hoping to never see such a day but who could blame them. I continue to try and help out as much as possible still to this day. I continue to stay committed to the jets and the customers buy keeping them flying as long as possible. I enjoyed our time while working with our supply chain, customers, MFG, and senior management, and Engineering, and everyone else involved,
By the Way a DME is a Dedicated Mechanics Examiner! But I did like
DME = Decision Making Equipment -> I think is essential, some people seem to be lacking
DME = Dry Malt Extract - > I took the kids to church on Sunday and had ice cream after wards
I have posted my name for those that are skittish and like to point fingers, as they hide behind blogs. On a funny note "I can't spell" I know this my phonics is great though. I have really enjoyed the irony while some type jokes they even miss-spell.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:19 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Welcome Shawn and good luck!
- March 25, 2009 at 10:32 AM
- shawn said...
Thanks buddy same to you. Just wondering something CWM, I have set you this same letter and a resume, to back it up, about a month ago. I never did hear from your recuiter. What ever happened to her, or him?
- March 25, 2009 at 10:35 AM
- airsafetyman said...
"By the Way a DME is a Dedicated Mechanics Examiner!"
Nope, a DME is a DESIGNATED Maintenance Examiner, as in designated by the FAA to give oral and practical exams to Airframe and Powerplant students who have passed their written exams. Perhaps you should read the previous posts before blowing your horn?
- March 25, 2009 at 10:36 AM
- Turboprop_pilot said...
Shawn seems to be a dedicated tech who is sincerely trying to help owners and stay out of the legal battles- why give him grief?
Ex Turboprop_pilot
- March 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
I forwarded that on Feb, 20 - can only assume she has had no needs for your skillset yet on the open market.
Happy to check with her again but I love to see entrepreneurship in action - hope you are successful.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:43 AM
- shawn said...
The Donate Button was set up for a customer whom wanted to pay for parts that I had to pay for, this way I could take a credit card via PayPal. It took me three weeks to find said part. time is not cheep but if you guys want to do it and spend a bunch of money for not then go right ahead. BTW I did not charge them any overhead.
I didn't realize that I was blowing anything, nice to know I can rub you that way. You guys drug me into this blog. I only answered some of your questions. BTW mistakes are human. You are right wise one. I slipped at the tounge agin.
I a not here to fight and if you wish me to stop with what I am doing then so be it.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:46 AM
- baron95 said...
Shane Price said...
On the other hand, it's all public information, available via the internet, so anyone who want's it can dig it out anyway.
For a "private individual", not a public figure, it is generally NOT OK to get the information from one place on the internet and blast it all over.
Typical example is if I go to your Facebook page and get a picture of your wife or daughter, combine it with other personal info and paste it on a questionable blog.
You would prob be pretty upset about that and sue me.
It adds no value to the discussion to put personal info here.
My rule as far as personal info is, when in doubt don't do it.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:48 AM
- shawn said...
Thanks alot I am just following up.
Please remove my personal street address every thing else I am fine with.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:49 AM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
"I can't spell"
Don't worry about yor spellings. On a blog that so warmly embraces polyglot Fred, as well as numerous drive-by postings, absolut grammatical currectness is not a necessary virtue neither. Heck, we even put up with ending sentences in prepositions from time to time.
"That is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I shall not put." ( famously mis-attributed to Winston Churchill )
I - as well as others, apparently - was curious what "eclipse500service.com" was all about, and appreciate you taking the time to tell us about it ( because Kathy only showed up on the blog occasionally, and always to post the URL, I was beginning to wonder if she was just shilling for you ). Good luck to you, your staff, partners, and customers with it.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:49 AM
- shawn said...
Thanks for the support Shane.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:52 AM
- Dave said...
It seems my phone has been flooded with email and phone calls this morning telling me how tacky the blog was for posting my personal information.
That's funny since no personal information was posted. All that has been posted is business information.
Please respect our privacy and let me know if we can help.
I think that is what people don't understand. This is about knowing who you are doing business with, not about personal information on somebody. If you've got a staff of former Eclipse employees, you should want to publicize who you've got working for you instead of saying you want it kept secret. In particular you can't very well expect to solicit donations (getting money for nothing, rather than payment for services rendered) and not have people wonder who is asking for a gift of free money.
I presume everything that you've posted on the blog is true, but you can't blame people for raising questions (particularly since it was asked if Eclipse500Service was run by McConnell) and providing business (not personal) information to address such questions.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:54 AM
- Dave said...
For a "private individual", not a public figure, it is generally NOT OK to get the information from one place on the internet and blast it all over.
This was a business record, not information on someone's personal website or the like.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:58 AM
- shawn said...
Also you are absolutely correct by the way, I was just asking for a little respect. Thanks
- March 25, 2009 at 11:01 AM
- shawn said...
have fun with your blog you know where my website is with contact info if you would like some help. Sorry the phone has been ringing off the hook and i am unable to get to every person espically if they do no leave a message. So try email, I will respond accordingly.
- March 25, 2009 at 11:07 AM
- shawn said...
PI= Proprietary information
- March 25, 2009 at 11:09 AM
- Dave said...
Also you are absolutely correct by the way, I was just asking for a little respect. Thanks
OK, then we're cool man. Good luck!
- March 25, 2009 at 11:09 AM
- julius said...
no names, no responsible persons -
that's finished thanks to your words.
It's your business - good luck and thank you for the info!
- March 25, 2009 at 11:10 AM
- airsafetyman said...
"Shawn seems to be a dedicated tech who is sincerely trying to help owners and stay out of the legal battles- why give him grief?"
He may be a dedicated tech, but is he a designated tech as well? It wasn't a misspelling - it was the wrong word entirely. If they are going to use initials on their website as an example of professional prowness they really should know what the initials mean. As for his phone ringing off the wall, er, isn't that the idea?
- March 25, 2009 at 11:27 AM
- airtaximan said...
I am sorry if my posting resulted in any problems. Post whatever info you wqnt.
Mine is erased.
- March 25, 2009 at 11:28 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 25, 2009 at 11:28 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Hey ASM, what is professional prowness?
- March 25, 2009 at 11:30 AM
- airtaximan said...
"As for his phone ringing off the wall, er, isn't that the idea?"
yup... kinda like looking a gift horse in the mouth... unless they cannot do what they say...
all the best
- March 25, 2009 at 11:32 AM
- airsafetyman said...
"Hey ASM, what is professional prowness?"
It's on the front of a boat or ship. The other end of the boat is the professional sternness.
- March 25, 2009 at 11:35 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
So RiP has prowNess when on Favonius?
- March 25, 2009 at 11:45 AM
- Dave said...
It's on the front of a boat or ship.
Eclipse Aviation was lacked any prowness because they were always below the waterline in a sea of red ink.
- March 25, 2009 at 11:45 AM
- airtaximan said...
I am curious about one thing:
How in heavens name did you obtain such a wide variety of expeeince as you described, while EAC had almost 2000 employees. It would eem like there would be a lot more pigeon holing and narrowly defined job descriptions, especially in a 1per day aircraft build environment.
Your experience is really impressive, spanning direct tech labor to supplier management.
Man, this is really extrordinary.
Also, you should send me some Valentines day gifts for flooding your inbox.
YOu are becoming known and reputable (up to you)a as a solution fro anyone with one of these planes.
Finally, ain't no way any of these planes has a positive impact in air transport. Economics are not there. Glad you liked your job, the product and the program.
And.. you got the widest scope of direct expereince I've heard of in 3 years of aerospace industry experience.
- March 25, 2009 at 11:47 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
As an aside, NTSB update on the Colgan Air BUF crash suggests icing was not a significant contributor and plane was acting as would be expected. FDR indicates a 25lb pull on the yoke after onset of stick shaker, followed by roll off and DFCF.
I am beginning to think pilot overreacted to stick shaker thinking taliplane stall in ice (corrective action is pull up) but the tailplane was not iced up and stalling - higher onset speed was due to ice protection being activated. This may have led to departure from controlled flight.
Just my theory at this time.
- March 25, 2009 at 11:50 AM
- gadfly said...
F-22 down near Edwards . . . minutes ago.
- March 25, 2009 at 12:07 PM
- Dave said...
Here's a very thorough investigative article by by AIN. Here's pieces of it:
Eclipse Jet
"Roel is a minority partner and has made a financial investment [in Eclipse Jet]," said Holland. "We all have a collective interest in doing the right thing for the company."
Eclipse Jet has the necessary funding to make a solid bid on Eclipse's assets, according to Holland, although in mid-March the company was still seeking working capital that would be needed to finance the effort to revive Eclipse. Former Eclipse employees are already showing interest in joining Eclipse Jet, but, he added, "100 percent of senior management will be from existing customers and deposit holders."
New Eclipse Acquisition
The first step would be to upgrade the entire fleet to the latest configuration. "There's not a single one of the 259 airplanes that was delivered complete," Friedman said, "so we have to upgrade everybody to same latest configuration." He would also like to open multiple smaller service centers around the U.S., closer to where customers are located so they wouldn't have to travel as far as they did to the former Eclipse service centers in Albuquerque; Gainesville, Fla.; and Albany, N.Y.
New Eclipse has contacted Eclipse vendors, and Friedman is hoping that they won't have to go to the trouble of obtaining PMA approval for their parts but can wait for the new company to buy Eclipse's assets and restart the flow of parts under the new banner. "We're asking them to hold off until we get back to the normal chain of supply," he said.
According to Friedman, Eclipse projected a build time of 600 person-hours for the 500, but it really took about 7,000. The Cessna Mustang takes about 4,000, he said. "That was a major error in cost analysis."
Eclipse Assets Up For Grabs
- March 25, 2009 at 12:28 PM
- airsafetyman said...
"We're asking them [the suppliers]to hold off [getting PMA approval]until we get back to the normal chain of supply,"
So sayeth Phil Friedman the Wichita widget-maker. Who in the hell is he to ask anybody anything?
Getting PMA approval for the parts that don't have it would be very advantageous for the owners as it would free up multiple sources for the parts and make them cheaper. Phil just wants to get in a position to get a mark-up without doing anything except repackaging the parts.
- March 25, 2009 at 1:09 PM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Bingo ASM.
Dirty little secret is there are already a lot of PMA activities underway due to a significant lack of confidence in any restart plans as well as the immediate need for some parts across the fleet and of course a desire to have reasonable parts pricing.
Couple that with creative STC's and some other options, and Phil and RiP can go pound sand while the owners finally get a level of service and support that all jet owners should demand.
"100 percent of senior management will be from existing customers and deposit holders."
Run, don't walk, and keep your hand on your wallet - some people never learn.
- March 25, 2009 at 1:32 PM
- agroth said...
From Shawn:
I didn't realize that I was blowing anything...
Just something quick: I believe you are addressing ASM with that comment. :-)
- March 25, 2009 at 1:41 PM
- agroth said...
Just following up on my last comment about EOXXX: Dennis says hello and that he'll try to stop by here sometime soon. :-)
- March 25, 2009 at 1:45 PM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
From the Matt Thurber/AIN article:
Eclipse Jet has met with the owners' group, according to Holland. "We're hoping we can work on something collaboratively. The end-game is to embrace the owners."
Embrace - what an open-ended term...
A gentle hug is an embrace. So is reaching around and crushing the recipient with all one's might - squeezing out first all the breath, then all the life, then all the money. Oberreichsmarschall Press and Rear Admiral Holland have brought Rip "Basketball Jones" Peepers into the fold.
What kind of "embrace" are we expecting here?
Would you like them to kiss you first?
- March 25, 2009 at 2:22 PM
- airtaximan said...
Well, I did not understand the "blowing" comment
I thought maybe I offended the guy and :
1) I usually don't get blown after offendng anyone
2) hate to be picky on this, but, not really interested in a "guy" (if its a guy) blowing me anytime
- March 25, 2009 at 2:32 PM
- WhyTech said...
"so we have to upgrade everybody to same latest [incomplete]configuration."
- March 25, 2009 at 2:33 PM
- bill e. goat said...
"What kind of "embrace" are we expecting here?"
You're in good hands, with Eclipse
- March 25, 2009 at 2:36 PM
- Dave said...
2) hate to be picky on this, but, not really interested in a "guy" (if its a guy) blowing me anytime
Oh give it up. He also said it was nice to know he could rub you. If you two have something going on, that's fine by me.
BTW I'm just joking about all this as I understood what Shawn meant, that he was saying it to ASM not ATM and that Shawn isn't really rubbing or blowing ASM.
- March 25, 2009 at 2:45 PM
- Dave said...
- March 25, 2009 at 2:50 PM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
Time's a Wastin'
As the various parties scramble to put together financing for their attempts to acquire the assets of Eclipse, an important piece of the puzzle is in grave danger of slipping away...
Document 581 on today's Bankruptcy docket is a Notice of Default by Eclipse on its contract with Peter Haaland for the rights to Phostrex. Seems that Eclipse and/or its Trustee failed to make the $20,000 payment due on March 10, 2009. The notice provides a mechanism for healing the breach of contract, and asserts that in the event of a failure to heal, all rights will revert back to Haaland ( I note that he was paid not quite a quarter of the $2,000,000 agreed-upon price to date ).
The notice includes a copy of the original Asset Purchase Agreement, which conveyed to the purchaser exclusive rights to Phostrex based on U.S. Patent 5626786 for "labile bromine fire suppressants". At the time the APA was signed, an application to reissue the '786 patent was pending with USPTO.
Guess what? The reissue was granted - with Eclipse listed as the assignee - on March 10, 2009.
The same day that Eclipse defaulted on the APA.
Would you like some irony with that?
- March 25, 2009 at 2:54 PM
- bill e. goat said...
I think I'd like a good U.S. prosecutor instead.
- March 25, 2009 at 4:06 PM
- bill e. goat said...
How bad does the fraud have to get before there are prosecutions??
- March 25, 2009 at 4:06 PM
- airtaximan said...
I only like women, I swear....
trying to remain lighthearted about this... all the rubbing and blowing you know
- March 25, 2009 at 4:13 PM
- Dave said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 25, 2009 at 4:30 PM
- WhyTech said...
"all the rubbing and blowing you know"
Slow news day on the blog?
- March 25, 2009 at 4:32 PM
- Dave said...
I only like women, I swear....
So the story involving you, a sheep and a tub full of jello isn't true?
- March 25, 2009 at 4:32 PM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
Slow news day on the blog?
So the story involving you, a sheep and a tub full of jello isn't true?
Me ( to Whytech ):
Guess so.
I tried, I really did...
- March 25, 2009 at 4:39 PM
- bill e. goat said...
Hello Shawn,
Sorry if you got a lot of calls at home - hopefully the "buzz" created some good leads for you (I should expect so).
I appreciated ATM letting us know who was behind eclipse500service (that link should work better than the previous one); I have to admit, I was suspicious, (and when I saw the "donate" button, I figured Wedge had thought up yet another scheme :)
Thanks for making your post too, and letting us know more. It sounds like you are plenty qualified, three years at Eclipse was no doubt like about nine years anywhere else. It sounds like you know a lot of the right people, to accomplish maintenance work on the Eclipse. And the "donate" button really IS a nice, thoughtful touch- I should say the owners ought to use it liberally, and with gratitude.
1) I am curious though, about how software releases work (both nav databases and Avio 1.x)- I would think it was sort of like non-PMA'd parts, that you can only obtain them through Eclipse.
2) I'm sure one can troubleshoot some of the Avio system without specialized test equipment, but it would seem like the factory, or a service center, would have some sort of advanced diagnostics equipment that would be very helpful, and maybe necessary, for in-depth troubleshooting.
3) Do you have any access to non-PMA'd parts? How is this sort of thing accomplished?
I'm pretty unfamiliar with the maintenance world of certified aircraft- I always thought there would have to be QA (especially with software releases and loading), documentation, etc- lots of overhead, and people, involved.
I hope the "exposure" you gained today will generate a lot of business for you (I think it would be a good idea to have the E5C group distribute your company info too). Please keep us posted on how things go- I would expect a lot of customers are anxious for your assistance.
- March 25, 2009 at 4:50 PM
- bill e. goat said...
"So the story involving you, a sheep and a tub full of jello isn't true?"
(!! Whew !!): No goats were harmed in the creation of this post.
(I'm not sure about sheep, or jello, though).
Was that jello, or
Peanut Butter and Jelly
Well, "there you go" !
- March 25, 2009 at 5:01 PM
- airtaximan said...
slow day on the blog, WT?
only for some my WT friend - I got a few sexual offers, and even an advance from a goat... I call that "an interesting day"
- March 25, 2009 at 6:36 PM
- gadfly said...
"EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AP) — One of the Air Force's top-of-the-line F-22 fighter jets crashed Wednesday in the high desert of Southern California, killing a test pilot for prime contractor Lockheed Martin Corp.
The F-22A Raptor crashed at 10 a.m. about 35 miles northeast of Edwards Air Force Base in the Mojave Desert. The Bureau of Land Management identifies the area as Harper Dry Lake, a vast and empty expanse of sometimes marshy flat land.
The pilot was David Cooley, 49, a 21-year Air Force veteran who joined Lockheed Martin in 2003, the company said in a statement. It did not release any details of the accident, including whether Cooley attempted to eject."
- March 25, 2009 at 6:59 PM
- Dave said...
slow day on the blog, WT?
I could go for an Eclipse Jet press release about now. I want to hear about the latest on Evita Peron franchising efforts.
- March 25, 2009 at 7:00 PM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Very sorry to hear they lost the pilot Gad.
My prayers to his family.
- March 25, 2009 at 7:07 PM
- WhyTech said...
"I call that "an interesting day"
Whatever turns you on.
- March 25, 2009 at 7:15 PM
- Dave said...
Speaking of the devil - or in this case of Shawn.
- March 25, 2009 at 7:43 PM
- bill e. goat said...
"and even an advance from a goat..."
Shocking, those goats!!
For those so inclined,
I Love Goats
Here's one "old goat" the "chicks" aren't to fond of though:
Hmmm... nice Goat(ee) !!
- March 25, 2009 at 7:46 PM
- bill e. goat said...
-public service announcement follows-
Unfortunately, I think some chickens WERE harmed in the preparation of this post :(
Pamela Anderson says...
(Hmmm, I never noticed she could talk :)
I corporate "ranching" is demented
("suffering from or exhibiting cognitive dementia")
"1 : a usually progressive condition (as Alzheimer's disease) marked by deteriorated cognitive functioning often with emotional apathy."
There was a good documentary on genetically modified foods on:
The Documentary Channel
I had always thought this meant plants, but the program also covered salmon (bred for more eggs, but results in aggressive psycho-fish, and industrial chicken ranching, where the brooding instinct is eradicated from hens. Sick, and scary, stuff.
Okay, maybe not as psycho as:
mutated sea bass
"Are they ill tempered ?"
Or as scary as this-
Humanoids- humanoids- humanoids, from the deep...
(Note several good shots of the cost-savings floor space reduction measures at Eclipse in the last third of the video)
"A tidal wave of rampaging creatures, surges from the dark and violent seas to conquer the earth".
"We think we know where these things come from, but we have no idea how many there are..."
Sorry, the documentary (about genetically modified foods, not the genetically modified humanoids* :) aired a few days ago- I couldn't "look backwards" on their web sites's schedule to find it. This is a pretty neat channel- I get it on Satellite TV, typical variety, tonight: The Paris Dakar Rally, the American blood banks, crystal meth addiction, "the healing power of flowers" (pretty scientific analysis, despite the rather "new age" title).
-This concludes today's public service announcement. We now return to our regularly scheduled programming-
(Maybe the Documentary Channel will make WT's day more interesting on these "slow blog" days).
* I wonder if drinking too much Red Bull can do that to a person?
- March 25, 2009 at 8:49 PM
- eclipse_deep_throat said...
Shane said,
I deleted your post for 'anglo saxon' reasons.
The language you used was just a little too much for me...
WTF? I don't understand. What on earth did I say that justified deleting the post? It was meant as a silly jibe at all the aviation-specific acronyms that are not always obvious, a reminder to fellow bloggers to follow a protocol to spell out acronyms at least once...
Your standards seem to be like a moving target lately. And, to be blunt, I've lost respect for you because of the blatant double standard. Especially when you don't immediately delete a post that broadcasts someone's personal info; whether or not that info is available elsewhere is incidental. Also, there have been extremely caustic comments and personal attacks on the blog that add nothing to the discussion of the EA500. If this is to now be a Humorless Zone, then at least be consistent and delete the "rubbing and blowing" comments that add nothing of substance to the conversation.
Truth be told, I should probably excuse myself from the blog now. Its been fun, but if I don't have any NEW and RELEVANT information to post, then I shouldn't. The last 3 years of my life, as an employee with Eclipse, has been hell. The company is dead, the plane is essentially dead, and then..... this blog is now redundant. There is no Eclipse Aviation anymore and therefore, all the critics have been proven "right" so they can go home, back to their much more interesting lives. Why continue to speculate on this? It's all rather anticlimatic now. The fat lady has sung her song and she's off the stage now in the limo out the back of the club ....tending to her "needs" on the way home...
PS - last one out the door, remember to turn off the lights and unplug the servers.
- March 25, 2009 at 9:07 PM
- bill e. goat said...
Thanks for the sad F-22 news.
In a noisy world, a good quiet man once (well, more than once) said "I want to become a teacher when I retire".
- March 25, 2009 at 9:08 PM
- JustinTime said...
Be careful guys... many former employees of Eclipse drank the kool-aid! Here are a few facts:
1. Just about every employee at Eclipse during the final 6 months were involved on PIP teams (Process Improvement Team). Some were involved with trying to brain storm the numerous issues relating to vendors. You didn't have to be "Super A&P" to participate. There were PIP teams on everything including trying to get the trash empty at no cost.
2. No one was traveling to visit vendor executives. There were ZERO travel budgets. NONE! ZILTCH! All travel was on personal funds with the exception of the top 3 or 4 VP's and above. Sorry... no deep discussions were being held with suppliers. Hell they wouldn't even answer the phone when the 505 area code came up on caller id. (They were also forbidden due to the BK)
3. "airtaximan" has made a very valid and accurate observation in his earlier post.
4. The new super-duper website is in violation of copyright and trademark law. Much of the information was used without permission of the owner/s.
5. There were 2 Product Support Service Engineers and neither are working for the new website. Although one does do freelance consulting while he is seeking employment.
I could go on but I will not. Be careful! Be patient! Be dilligent!
- March 25, 2009 at 10:19 PM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
In an unexpected turn, there IS some actual Eclipse news...
( Dramatic Pause )
Well, okay, some no-surprises-here news. #584 on PACER is a listing of Eclipse's unpaid post-petition debts. It's ten pages of grainy, shrunken, really small print - totaling 1300 to 1400 entries ( did I mention the REALLY small print? )
Think of it as "Dance of the Bagholders" ( 2009 edition ). Naturally, the question on everybody's lips is, "who's holding the biggest sack?" No surprises here - the DIPsticks win hands down. Al Mann comes in at $10.11 million, just edging out ETIRC at $10.10M. But wait! RiP shows up at $36K under his own name, so ETRICK takes the lead at $10.13M combined.
New Eclipse sysadmin Computer Sciences Corp is listed next at $1.8M - hope their sales rep didn't cash that commission check just so the BK judge could order him to give it back.
Can't forget the lawyers - and on that note, Allen & Overy ( tired of decades of gynecological wisecracks ) leads out at $1.55M. In a distant second place is Morrison & Foerster ( no wisecracks here ) at $354K, with Young, Conaway, Stargatt & Taylor in third at a mere $219K.
EASA is owed $413K for the four month period ( wonder what the status of EU certification is? )
Gainesville Regional Airport Authority got stiffed to the tune of $800K, while Albany got off for less than $40K ( ABQ Sunport appears to have been nicked of around $120K ).
Chanin Capital Partners ( what's their relationship with EAC? ) is owed $381K, and insurance broker Willis Global finds their receivables $710K in arrears. Verizon? $215K - I guess sending out 2000 resumes at the same time uses up lots of mighty spendy bandwidth. So many Blackberries, so little time...
Suppliers aren't deeply represented, with only Norcott Engineering at $445K & Chelton at $375K cracking six figures. Avidyne, Hampson, & IS&S are nowhere to be found.
Also unseen are Peg & Wedge. Among the familiar names, Masefield at $78K just edges out McConnell at $77K, with Fiero garnering a dishonorable mention at $24K.
Reading such a mind-numbing list of futility gets me down. A little music would lift the spirits - maybe Mozart's Serenade #13 for Investors, Employees & Vendors in G major ( more commonly known as "Eine Kleine Verbrennungsanlage Musik" ) will cheer me up.
- March 25, 2009 at 10:41 PM
- FreedomsJamtarts said...
Dilbert's Company have also thrown there hat in teh ring with a viable Eclipse business model.
- March 26, 2009 at 12:58 AM
- baron95 said...
- March 26, 2009 at 1:12 AM
- FreedomsJamtarts said...
According to Friedman, Eclipse projected a build time of 600 person-hours for the 500, but it really took about 7,000. The Cessna Mustang takes about 4,000, he said. "That was a major error in cost analysis."
Note for the dreamers who think the EA500 is a great plane with a great future at a sales price of ~$2M -> The plane took over 11x as many manufacturing hours as they planned ( Great planning - what other targets were missed by a whole order of magnitude? System Safety assesment catastrophic failure probablity?)
Combine 11x planned manhour rate and the parts cost escalation, due to 1/10 the planned producion volume, and will get a production cost closer to $4M than $1M.
Any takers for a $5M Ecorpse Resus EA500B?
- March 26, 2009 at 1:40 AM
- fred said...
yes , freedom ...
especially since Mustang can be found for about 2 millions Euros ...!
it is a very tough choice :
a "Thing" with a "past" but no real future ...
or a jet , complete , with some prospect of keeping some value , a good worldwide service after-sale , etc ... etc...
tough choice , isn't it ?
- March 26, 2009 at 4:07 AM
- FreedomsJamtarts said...
Since you have done extensive avionic troubleshooting, how happy are you with the integration of the 13 (IIRR) vendors which made up Avio NfG.
We have received rumours/ reports that specification were rarely complete at Ecorpse, and often changed.
We speculated that this was a recipe for diffusion of responisblity, with the venders pointing fingers at the integrator and each other when complex or interface issues surfaced in the field.
We would appreciate your opinions on this area.
- March 26, 2009 at 5:41 AM
- Dave said...
Chanin Capital Partners ( what's their relationship with EAC? ) is owed $381K
They might have had something to do with the 363 sale.
- March 26, 2009 at 5:49 AM
- airtaximan said...
this one, or the one about liking women?
I am curious about one thing:
How in heavens name did you obtain such a wide variety of expeeince as you described, while EAC had almost 2000 employees. It would eem like there would be a lot more pigeon holing and narrowly defined job descriptions, especially in a 1per day aircraft build environment.
Your experience is really impressive, spanning direct tech labor to supplier management.
Man, this is really extrordinary.
Also, you should send me some Valentines day gifts for flooding your inbox.
YOu are becoming known and reputable (up to you)a as a solution fro anyone with one of these planes.
Finally, ain't no way any of these planes has a positive impact in air transport. Economics are not there. Glad you liked your job, the product and the program.
And.. you got the widest scope of direct expereince I've heard of in 3 years of aerospace industry experience.
March 25, 2009 11:47 AM
- March 26, 2009 at 5:55 AM
- FreedomsJamtarts said...
EASA is owed $413K for the four month period ( wonder what the status of EU certification is? )
Would have thought EASA were smart enough to demand cash in advance for the TC, considering the huge warning signs which were flashing at that time...
- March 26, 2009 at 6:06 AM
- airtaximan said...
anyone know if there's liability for bidding on a 363 sale and renegging?
- March 26, 2009 at 6:18 AM
- fred said...
yes , i was wondering myself ...
and about misleading the board of a firm you are the CEO , and eventually stating "foutaises" to a BK Judge ?
if in the US , this has the same importance than in some EU countries , then prepare the rope !!
since the beginning of 2009 Vnesheconombank has issued RUB 257 billion (approx. $7.6bn) in subordinated loans, which are provided on terms of co-financing by shareholders and on the condition that the funds will be lent to real sector companies.
this isn't too bad for a bank reported to be so broke that they couldn't spare pocket-change to RiP ...
Unless , off-course , it is the word "REAL" that was too much ...;-)
- March 26, 2009 at 6:33 AM
- Dave said...
anyone know if there's liability for bidding on a 363 sale and renegging?
I'm not sure, but there could (not that there would) be something done if Evita Peron lied under oath. I don't know if it has become available yet online, but I can't wait to read it.
- March 26, 2009 at 7:20 AM
- EclipsePilotOMSIV said...
Slow day on the blog?
- March 26, 2009 at 12:58 PM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
Slow day on the blog?
Looks like it. Checked the docket for anything interesting - nothing. My fear is that anybody who clicked on my last link & sat through the entire thing, lost their will to go on.
( And let me be the next one to wish you well with your new venture )
- March 26, 2009 at 3:00 PM
- airtaximan said...
wondering if a slow day on the blog is a good thing or bad thing?
entertainment factor way down...
also means nothing dramatic going on, which could indicate dormancy, normalcy or just out of business.
Wouldn't it be nice if this blog was quiet for a different reason?
- March 26, 2009 at 4:05 PM
- Dave said...
also means nothing dramatic going on, which could indicate dormancy, normalcy or just out of business.
Normalcy and Eclipse - now THAT is funny!
- March 26, 2009 at 4:27 PM
- julius said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 27, 2009 at 4:08 AM
- flyger said...
airtaximan said...
also means nothing dramatic going on, which could indicate dormancy, normalcy or just out of business.
Or worse: irrelevancy.
Eclipse has become irrelevant. The great savior of GA has become a footnote of history and the only people who care are those trying to band aid their planes to keep them flying. Everybody else realizes the "dream" is over and has moved on.
The owners are faced with only two options: maintenance blackmail or abandonment. It remains to be seen if anyone can actually support the airplane even with a king's ransom. After all, the original company had >$1B and couldn't do it, why do we think 2% of that will be enough to solve the problems?
- March 27, 2009 at 6:47 AM
- Beedriver said...
Quote "After all, the original company had >$1B and couldn't do it, why do we think 2% of that will be enough to solve the problems"
In my experience these kind of problems only get solved by small teams with a few of the right people and the freedom to do what needs to be done.
this is not a guarantee of success but if you look at history it has been small teams that have gotten it done remember groups like the Skunk works.
The only hope is that a small group with some resources will get control of eclipse with the right management and talent then the EA500 will be finally finished.
some owners in that case will think they are being gouged but their airplanes will be flying and parts will be be available and the upgrades will be done that need to be done. I know this intimately from my experience with Aerostar Aircraft and from a few conversations I have had, the same thing seems to be true in the case of the Turbine Aero commanders.
Whoever buys it must have clear control, the right people,and enough up front money to do what needs to be done in the next year or two to have a good chance of success. If any one of those three things is lacking, the effort will fail.
- March 27, 2009 at 7:09 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Speaking for myself Flyger, I believe the planes can be reasonably well supported, and at a cost that is rational given the small size of the fleet.
That EAC apparently burned nearly $3B and failed to deliver a single production spec plane only speaks to mismanagement on the part of Eclipse.
How does Epic deliver tremendous performance for an excellent value? You can say it is because they are an experimental company but IMO that misses the level of professionalism and commitment demonstrated there as well as their stated intent to certify some of their designs.
How did Embraer bring 2 planes to market for perhaps 1/4 as much?
How did Cessna bring the Mustang to market for likely 10-15% as much?
How does a small shop like Excel Jet design and build a safe, capable SEJ in a largely self-funded garage environment?
They all designed and built airplanes the way we all know airplanes should be designed and built. They favored evolution over revolution, and they favored execution over hype.
The question is not how can anyone else do it when Eclipse could not, the question should be can someone else succeed following established principles with a rational, workable plan - something not present at the former Eclipse for a while, if ever.
There are at least 3 large groups, and several smaller groups that think the answer to the first part (can we succeed) is yes, the last question is economics and long term viability - something I am sure is on the mind of every owner.
- March 27, 2009 at 7:16 AM
- fred said...
Finally finish the Fpj ...
good grace ... what for ???
no , i think 2% could be enough ...
it is not a question of % anymore ,but a question of How to make the death of Fpj the slower possible (in the 10 years overall frame) while spending the smallest possible amount ...!
- March 27, 2009 at 7:21 AM
- julius said...
Or worse: irrelevancy.
that's better than getting puplic interest by falling piecemeal from the sky!
Apart from some owners (and related "blackmailers") and RiP who is realy interested in the fpj?
The Russians??
The 363 sales showed only a lame "stalking horse"...
And now... how much would you pay for the TC, some tools, some spart parts, a damaged supply chain, and the chance that demotivated laid-off workers will help you to start the business?
- March 27, 2009 at 7:39 AM
- fred said...
Ja , kein Geld für ein gutes Angebot! ;-)
- March 27, 2009 at 7:42 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
Warum sagt es Sie Fred?
- March 27, 2009 at 7:46 AM
- fred said...
oooppss , somtime i get carried away ! sorry !!!
we keep it in language understandable by most , ok ?
why did i say so :
since a while , it seems to me that this auction sounds a bit like the wonderful car , dress , plane , flat , etc ...etc... you have just saw on offer ...
unfortunately , when you inquire
"the last one at this price has just been sold !"
to keep the Fpj flying in fixing what need to be fixed , updating what need to be updated and eventually upgrading what can be without spending an arm and 2 legs ...
can be ok , i wouldn't be too much surprised IF some good and talented professional could turn it into a "some kind" of profitable business ...
as for finishing what hasn't been finished , re-designing the whole aft or re-launching production ...
i would say : Dream on ! ;-)
- March 27, 2009 at 8:00 AM
- airsafetyman said...
Maybe EDT said it best - it really is over. Vern has gone on to wreak havoc with the EAA (Motto: When we want your opinion we will give it to you!) and Roel is bankrupting more companies in Euroland. The in-fighting among the second-tier clowns such as the Wichita widget-maker, Col Mike, and the rest are only mildly amusing. The Kenster can only watch as the value of his airplane craters. Poof! Gone!
- March 27, 2009 at 8:01 AM
- Dave Ivedorne said...
How did Embraer bring 2 planes to market for perhaps 1/4 as much?
How did Cessna bring the Mustang to market for likely 10-15% as much?
Oh, dear, dear, ColdWetOptionofReality - don't you realize how much 'disruptive' is supposed to cost? Everything was going EXACTLY to plan, until those unbelieving bloggers stuck their noses where they don't belong...
( Or maybe Cessna & Embraer just know WTF they're doing ).
- March 27, 2009 at 8:02 AM
- julius said...
CWMR is right, spend your money for something better...
The wedge gave the signals to leave...
- March 27, 2009 at 8:05 AM
- ColdWetMackarelofReality said...
ColdWetOptionOfReality, I kinda like that if you are referring to my attepmt to provide a realistic option to the willing. ;^)
And yes, it has everything to do with Cessna, and Embraer and knowing WTF they are doing.
It appears that the lack of a stable specification was a major contributor to the difficult and as yet incomplete gestation of the preemie jet.
I once worked for a VP who gathered the entire engineering team in the lobby of our facility and said 'It has been my great pleasure to work with you all, we have designed a great airplane that the government will be pleased with, but there comes a time when you have to shoot the engineers and just build the thing.' He was speaking about the need to get to a final spec and then build that final spec.
Everything we have observed suggests that engineering was not the problem at Eclipse, in fact, I'd say engineering probably performed heroically under what were certainly difficult circumstances. The issue was the lack of a stable specification from the wizard(s) of smart.
How much time was wasted qualifying alternate vendors to replace otherwise successful vendors who pushed back at lack of adequate spec's, changing spec's, or scope creep?
How much time was wasted redesigning components because someone changed their mind or got angry at a vendor?
How much time was wasted developing work-arounds to get to a quick resolution vs. actually completing the design?
Two engines, three avionics suites, two central nervous systems (HAL), two tip tank designs, multiple fairing changes, multiple actuator designs, two radar designs, work-around after work-around.
Add in the hollywood dog and pony show at OSH, SNF, AOPA, NBAA and EBACE over 10 years, it is easy to see how a good portion of money was spent.
Tooling and equipment for FSW, reportedly high scrap rate for precision machined parts, the balance goes higher.
At the end of the day, the end of Eclipse is very much like an air crash - a chain of events that in hindsight will probably become quite clear insofar as what information and supposition exists in the public sphere.
In the mean time though, there are a couple hundred owners looking for solutions to their current problems. The past no longer matters to them, or at least it should not. What is done is done, what was accepted was accepted, and what is, is.
The next few weeks and the decisions/actions of probably a relatively small number of people will determine IF there is a future for the type, and if so, what kinf of future it is and whether it extends beyond 2018.
- March 27, 2009 at 8:23 AM
- julius said...
Dave Ivedorne,
Everything was going EXACTLY to plan, until those unbelieving bloggers stuck their noses where they don't belong...
you neglect the victims, who really wanted to buy the fpj...
Being a 100% deposit holder is the Olymp - anyhow much better than being an owner with all these troubles - here the wedge digressed from the clear p...plan!
As CWMR pointed out there is no completed fpj...
- March 27, 2009 at 8:35 AM
- airtaximan said...
I kinda wish I thought of "irrelevancy"... but, I somehow think there will be more press on EAC, and more drama... still.
Eventhough, as you put it, they are/should have most always been irrelevant, or at least a lot less relevant.
Somehow the gov't and the Press fell into the hype, and lent their weight behind EAC (probably just because of dollars)...
When anything happends, it will still pop up in too many places.
It was supposed to be a silly little twin jet - not revolutionary at all, just cheap to by. Based on volumes, unheard of in GA at anywhere near the price.
It was a very risky bet, and it was trumped up by some outlandish misrepresentations, which kept the dream alive.
I am sure, if anyone really knew the orderbook was 60% Dayjet, many speculators, and many (individuals) with multiple orders... ergo, the plane appealed to a pretty small market, even at the $800k, or $.25 million price... they would have just stayed away.
Ask yourself: why place a deposit on a plane when their plan is to produce 700 a year? Becasue you want airplane number 100 instead of plane number 500 which you could get a few months later if alls well?
It was a fraud, and a joke. People were duped into placing deposits, based on outlandish BS order numbers. Management knew they were being dishonest, and they did it to get the deposit money.
- March 27, 2009 at 9:18 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Over !?
Wedge's MO was "go big or go home".
He went big, and flopped.
...But I'm not sure he's gone home yet.
- March 27, 2009 at 10:33 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Of course, one could opine on what he will be calling "home"...
Eclipse-NG, aka FAA Director, West Coast office
- March 27, 2009 at 10:44 AM
- fred said...
billy :
Home ?
seems too nice ...
is this a barack's effect ?
everyone wants subsidized something ... ;-) (joke)
- March 27, 2009 at 11:42 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Hi Fred,
It looks underservingly nice, but just in case Wedge tries to swim back to shore-
Sharps with frek'n laser beams !!
- March 27, 2009 at 12:13 PM
- Turboprop_pilot said...
From Marketwatch on the occasion of Paul Allen's Charter Communications bankruptcy today:
"... Paul Allen, 56, who made his fortune at Microsoft, once ranked as the world's third-richest person with a $30 billion fortune in 1999, according to Forbes magazine. But last year, Allen had dropped to No. 41 on the Forbes list, with an estimated $16 billion net worth, as a result of his spotty record as an investor."
Vern's mentor and he created a smaller fortune without even investing in aviation- $14 billion is REAL cash incineration though.
ex Turboprop_pilot
- March 27, 2009 at 1:13 PM
- WhyTech said...
"$14 billion is REAL cash incineration though.
Maybe you didnt know that Vern was helping to shovel Paul's cash into the incinerator. At one time, Vern worked for Paul, and Paul provided him with a CJ and said, "Go forth and incinerate (invest)." Vern had lots of practice before he got to Eclipse.
- March 27, 2009 at 4:02 PM
- bill e. goat said...
"Practice makes perfect" !!
- March 27, 2009 at 4:47 PM
- bill e. goat said...
(Looks like I could use a little more practice with my spelling too!- I think that was sharks with laser beams, or sharp teeth, or something like that :)
- March 27, 2009 at 5:29 PM
- HiFlyer said...
Have you heard anything about the identity of the OEM the owners' group is scheduled to meet for a presentation?
- March 27, 2009 at 6:35 PM
- bill e. goat said...
"Have you heard anything about the identity of the OEM the owners' group is scheduled to meet for a presentation?"
Aluminum Prices Are Up
Maybe CWMOR is going to have some competition for recycled EA500's !!
The Future of Travel
Hmmm, the "international line".
Maybe that explains all the hub-bub about the European cert.
- March 27, 2009 at 7:06 PM
- julius said...
Aluminium Prices are UP
it's more like: we might have reached the bottom (€ & 1 year)!
Aluminium may also be used for the fine arts:
Giant Torayan spews fire - Tokio
Looking at RiP's new engagement in Col.P's team wedge would like to spew fire and "non anglo saxon" words - but no cash to play the game!
- March 28, 2009 at 4:06 AM
- fred said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 28, 2009 at 6:33 AM
- fred said...
billy :
did you get baron's disease ?
you see if you work out the graphic with ONE year instead of 15 DAYS ...
the music seems to be quite different ...
as Julius wrote , May be bottom as for a rise ???
it is not even 2004's price yet !!!
- March 28, 2009 at 6:35 AM
- fred said...
as for the "international line" of recycling Fpj ...
i have never seen such trailer in Euroland or Eastern europe ...
ok , i am not a reference ! ;-)
- March 28, 2009 at 6:38 AM
- airtaximan said...
why would a legit OEM meet with the owners group?
not kidding here... an OEM would look to their expertise regarding the price and market, and not really need to meet for intel on the owners side... and, the owners would be thrilled if a real OEM showed up... except for perhaps the "realism" that would be worked into the pricing of product/services/production volume...
so, an OEM would either need to believe the plane is worth $2.X million and be able to make a profit with low volume a consideration... or they would stay away.
if its the chinese... that's s different kind of OEM, IMO.
- March 28, 2009 at 7:00 AM
- bill e. goat said...
I think you exquisitely captured the charming, erudite sophistication and exquisite articulation of aviation's favorite ex-CEO !!
- March 28, 2009 at 7:39 AM
- airsafetyman said...
"Have you heard anything about the identity of the OEM the owners' group is scheduled to meet for a presentation?"
I think the Wichita widget-maker is trying to pass himself off as an OEM. Pretty soon Col. Mike is going to be an expert in maintenance, repair, and overhaul, too. Once you pass through the looking-glass anything is possible! As for myself, I am going to get a thousand million dollar bonus from the US taxpayer and retire to Rio. With my own Embraer Phenom.
- March 28, 2009 at 8:09 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Hi Fred,
"did you get baron's disease ?"
I'm afraid so- but I'm happy to report we are both partaking in therapeutic recovery sessions!
G.W.Bush Recovery Clinic
(Looks like they're having fun- who needs a playstation!! :)
"(Aluminum) it is not even 2004's price yet !!!"
Hmmm- I checked out the 5 year graph- astounding- it seems like Wedge's departure announcement in August of 2008 has lead to the total debasement of aluminum pricing.
(One could argue Wedge debased many customers as well :)
Wedge departs, aluminum prices decline
Taking a longer view of history (the 10 years of EAC), it seems like the entire aluminum industry was taken in by the promise of "thousands" of EA500 deliveries:
Aluminum prices along the EAC timeline
- March 28, 2009 at 8:14 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Well, hmmm.
Maybe the price of aluminum more closely tracks oil than EA500s (it is a fun theory though!!)
Interesting chart- play the audio explanation in the upper left hand, which triggers a historical "bug" that moves along with the audio track.
Oil Priced do a "loop"
(And throw the economy into a loop too!)
Fred, regarding the sad absense of glamorous airstream "international"s in Europe, all I can say is- "where's Big Ed" of DelayJet lately??
(He had mentioned the competition to air taxis was from automobiles. Maybe this is the "hybrid" solution nobody thought of-
Just think- Airstreams come in a variety of sizes, the Gulfstream G5 "International" to the Cessna CJ "Basecamp" model
Smaller Airstream
It comes with a fax, and potty- how many EA500's can match THAT !!
(...not to mention the shower! :)
Talk about having to tie up an airplane and pilot while the CEO and entourage are at a meeting, how passe' and wasteful!! Just park the trailer, and go on to the next "pickup". This gives the CEO unfettered access to his personal office for the entire duration of the trip.
Wedge and Big Ed were giddy with delight over the number of smaller GA airports the EA500 could serve versus larger bizjets and commercial flights- just think how many more parking lots could be served (all of them!) compared to the number of GA airports!
I really am amazed that I am always the one who comes up with these obvious solutions. Sometimes I think I know just how Wedge must feel !!
the OTHER Big Ed
(Edward Nigma, that is...)
Riddle me this:
How could Eclipse ever be profitable?
- March 28, 2009 at 9:11 AM
- bill e. goat said...
HiFlyer, ASM,
Regarding that OEM visiting with the owners club;
I was pondering this when ASM mentioned it might be the WWW (Wizard of Wichita Widgetry).
Actually, I wish him well in his pursuit to acquire EAC- I think he is uniquely qualified among the bidders to fully utilize the excess capacity at EAC, maybe for subcontracting to other airframers. I think he could *eventually* restart EAC production, and until then, make a good living (and provide the same to ex-EAC'rs) making piece parts. Maybe even FSW'd piece parts.
I think he is a bit less prepared to provide customer support- I hope CWMOR or our new friend Shawn can provide that, maybe as an alternative to factory support, if that ever materializes.
But...if...someone besides Mr. Wichita is visiting with the "owners group", I could only imagine it would be really intended as a visit with "the 60% depositors"*, to see how interested they are in taking delivery (for oh say, another 100%). It makes NO sense at all for an OEM to meet with the existing owners, unless he is trying to solicit investment funds. (Which I think would substantiate ASM's post).
*I'm not sure if the "60% depositors" are part of the "owners club" or not. The interests of both parties would overlap a lot.
But as others have noted, this is probably the most expensive time to buy an EA500 (lots of inefficiencies in starting up the line), whereas it is probably the least expensive time to buy a Mustang (depressed GA market).
But the EAC facility is substantial- which would seem to dictate a strategy of:
1) acquire the factory cheap
2) delay line startup until the market conditions improve (e.g., Mustang prices go up)
3) until #2, use the facility to make piece parts. (Minimal "start up" expense for that, and it generates revenue to offset factory acquisition costs).
ASM, let me know if you need a pool boy when you move "south"!
All I ask is a nice (maybe, Hawker 800 sized) Airstream on the beach. (And keys to the Phenom occasionally! :)
- March 28, 2009 at 9:30 AM
- JustinTime said...
Does anybody have a clue as to the next step in this saga? When is the BK court going to act?
- March 28, 2009 at 9:52 AM
- fred said...
justin :
this is a wild guess on next in saga :
Poof , gone , Kaputt ! ;-)
- March 28, 2009 at 11:43 AM
- Dave said...
Justin: Don't drink the kool-aid!
- March 28, 2009 at 4:41 PM
- JustinTime said...
TOO LATE DAVE... I've turned into a KOOL-AID-AHOLIC! I need help... quick... someone tell me where I can find Vern... Roell... Peg... Mike... someone help... I need some kool-aid fast!
- March 28, 2009 at 4:53 PM
- bill e. goat said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 28, 2009 at 6:16 PM
- bill e. goat said...
Read the last few pages of this:
Deleware Bankruptcy Court Doc
I think the petition to convert from Ch 11 to Ch 7 was filed on Feb 24 (Interestingly, almost exactly 3 months after the original Ch 11 filing on Nov 25), and the court decision was verbally okayed on March 04, 2009 (I never did see where it was actually signed, but reckon it was, about then). There were some "do this in 15 day" things, and "do that in 30 day" things, so Eclipse and creditors have until April 06-ish to file their financial claims to a court-appointed trustee (Wedge ?!?- just kidding. I think Wedge might have some "court appointments" of his own, sometime soon though- involving much more than 30 days! :)
After that, I think there is no firm deadline. If some bidders can convince the trustee "they're working on something", and the creditors are satisfied that they might be getting more money in the future by waiting until "Tuesday" for the latest and greatest big offer to come in, then things probably won't be happening very fast (sounds typical of Eclipse !!).
If the creditors think they are getting stalled, they'll whine to the trustee, and he'll sell it to WedgeWorld Indoor Miniature Golf Enterprises, or some such, for about nothing, just to close the books.
That's how I read it anyway.
There, ah, is, ah, ...a..., ...
...-another- source of ...information,
but I must caution you,
Beware the force is strong-
Don't "tune in" to the Dark Side !!
From "those other guys":
The Darth Owner Site
- March 29, 2009 at 4:34 AM
- airsafetyman said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 29, 2009 at 6:16 AM
- Shane Price said...
HiFlyer, JustinTime,
Both questions are linked. OEM are typically owed money by this mess. The courts are anxious to close it off. The note holders are looking at a total write off, as the first few million will have to go to Al Mann for the DIP money.
BK courts typically allow up to 90 days before forcing an auction, in the hope that 'something' will turn up. In this case, several credible bidders are lurking, all trying to pay the least to get the most.
This, in a funny way, might actually precipitate the auction process. After all, it is the simplest and fairest way to dispose of what remains...
On another note, anyone seen which way Edward Lundeen (who was the former VP of international business with EAC) went? I'm interested in tracking down as many of the crew as I can. We all know where Mike and Roel are. I've a pretty good idea where Peg is. So, anyone who can help with Mr. Lundeen can do the usual, and drop a line to
One final warning. Tuesday is, well, a 'special' day....
- March 29, 2009 at 2:10 PM
- HiFlyer said...
The OEM is described, by the owner who apparently set up the meeting, as a world-respected manufacturer of aircraft. Representatives of the owners' group are scheduled to meet with the manufacture this coming week. The indication is that the manufacturer has expressed interest in supporting the plane as well as restarting production. Just no indication of the identity.
- March 29, 2009 at 2:21 PM
- airtaximan said...
the unknown comic
- March 29, 2009 at 2:38 PM
- EclipsePilotOMSIV said...
Did I miss something? Where is Mike MacConnell??
- March 29, 2009 at 3:18 PM
- Dave said...
Where is Mike MacConnell??
He was supposed to turn off the lights when he left.
- March 29, 2009 at 3:54 PM
- "Screwee" said...
1) Pilatus
2) Socata
- March 29, 2009 at 5:38 PM
- bill e. goat said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 29, 2009 at 8:21 PM
- bill e. goat said...
Shane, EPx,
I'm not sure where Mike McConnell is either- has he "thrown in" with one of the plans?
I was prompted to review the old Exec team bios for clues as to future goings on.
EAC Bios
(Click on "Executive Team" for list)
Interestingly, EAC seemed to be a bit top heavy with financial "execs", three are listed:
J. Mark Borseth - Sr. VP and Chief Financial Officer
Andrew Kamm - Vice President, Finance
Andrew Vikta - Vice President, Controller and Chief Accounting Officer
Odd, to me. Maybe investors just kept adding financial "execs" until they got the numbers they hoped for.
From the same site,
Edward M. Lundeen - Vice President, International Business
"Ed Lundeen is responsible for the expansion and development of Eclipse's international business activities and is presently working with Eclipse's partner, ETIRC, on the establishment of a factory in Russia in conjunction with the expansion of sales, marketing and services operations in Europe."
If RiP is still a player, and Lundeen is involved, maybe something is still cooking with Russia.
"The OEM is described, by the owner who apparently set up the meeting, as a world-respected manufacturer of aircraft."
Maybe, consider ETIRC was going to go in cahoots with Aviastar, I think, in the Russian city of Ulyanovsk
"a significant industrial city. It is home to UAZ, a large automobile manufacturing plant, UMZ, and Aviastar-SP, an airplane plant that is best known as the manufacturer of the heavy aircraft An-124."
Ulyanovsk, RU
Russia Netherlands Economic Forum
What did that Wedge say about "no Russian involvement" in response to rumors, back in the 2005 time frame??
There are only two reasons for an OEM to meet with the owners group
1) Establish in advance that they will NOT be held liable for warranty claims.
2) Schmooze owners in advance, to prevent any bad press during if a "disruptive"/controversial company (Chinese, Russian) takes over.
3) Solicit funding.
Item 1 would be representative of Diamond or Cirrus. (I would think they would be interested to some degree, for the TC, and manufacturing facility, and maybe the EA400 plans).
Item 2 would be representative of China or Russia
Shanghai Aviation
Item 3 would be typical for any number of under capitalized wantabes.
"Tuesday" should be interesting (as always !!)
- March 29, 2009 at 8:34 PM
- bill e. goat said...
Maybe a good guess on Pilatus- Oliver Masefield was a VP there, and the EA500 would be a nice addition to their product lineup.
Not so sure about Socata, but that would indeed be a nice addition to their product lineup too.
I thought the EA500 would be an ideal fit for Beechcraft- right in between the Baron and C90GT, but don't know if that's going anywhere. Beech is big in composites- and the EA400 fuselage was composite, if I recall (although maybe this was just for expediency of the prototype).
- March 29, 2009 at 8:41 PM
- bill e. goat said...
"in the homework , you could read Noam Chomsky ..."
I have read Chomsky's 1988 book
Manufacturing Consent.
I liked it a lot, and was vaguely familiar with his linguistic work earlier.
I always eagerly tune in to his interviews on Book TV, a public television weekend program of our CSPAN-2 channel, but after a few minutes, I eagerly turn it off- he is just too over-the-top for me.
(My favorite BookTV program this weekend was William Cohan, author of "House of Cards: A Tale of Hubris and Wretched Excess on Wall Street"
Book TV
- March 29, 2009 at 9:01 PM
- fred said...
Billy :
yes , i can agree with you on such !
Noam is very interesting to read , but even for me , sometimes , it's a bit much ...
throught his point is 99% hitting the target , i can very well understand him being like a witch in salem ...;-)
still very interesting to be read and (more important) make the effort it takes (sometimes) to understand implications of his writting ...
if only most would have understood him about the excass the situation we are experiencing now , wouldn't have happened ...
- March 29, 2009 at 11:44 PM
- fred said...
on your comments to Etrick and RiP :
something that always amazed me is the way the whole plot did happen
eclipse international was the first name of Etrick ...
RiP wasn't involved into the plot (officially) but in fact has always been around ...
Russian plant was not supposed to be "instead" of ABQ , but it made no sens to have both for a start-up ...
Russian plant that was not supposed to exist (officially) until very late in the plot , where indications are that it was planned (very?) long ago ...
to me it has all the tastes and smell of a good old scam planned from scratches by a bunch of sharks ...
some of the sharks were a little more clever (ed)
some of the sharks were worse in the execution than planned (wedge)
some of the sharks were more "reliant on others" (RiP)
if you take it from day one , there is no way it did happen ONLY by poor planning , poor management , poor whatever ...
in fact it has been quite brillantly made , but poorly executed ...
the economic situation did worsen the situation ( if credits would be flowing like it used to be , illusion would still be on !!)
and they forgot a simple rule : when there is nothing left to eat = sharks eat one an other !!!
- March 30, 2009 at 12:12 AM
- fred said...
billy to keep on your homework :
you could read "Profit over People "
but i would ask not to do it in one go !;-)
heavy stuff ...
- March 30, 2009 at 2:18 AM
- julius said...
in fact it has been quite brillantly made , but poorly executed ...
That's true!
RiP was involved since 2004 (Russian plant 2005): Did this intelligent guy not perceive that little wedge did bad job - since the beginning with Pronto?
Even if the ABQ closure was part of the game - RiP did not follow the road and missed the EASA cert...and failed to build up a maintenance system in ABQ.
At the end: EAC is not more than the TC (FAA and EASA?) and some IP.
The buildings and parts in ABQ, are they still assets or already liabilities?
The OEMs have all times - there is no immediate need to buy "EAC"!
It's cheaper to lease a fpj for a month and check it than buying "EAC"...
The maintenance business is difficult because of the AVIO NG concept and lack of space in the cockpit area.
CWMR concept makes sense....
The recession is just coming like the spring/summer in this march - slowly and step by step - ... or is already marching on (resulting in the blow of real estate bubble, finance system crisis (or crises?), long forcasted automotive industries cataclysm, ...)
- March 30, 2009 at 3:50 AM
- fred said...
gutten tag , julius ...
i used the term "sharks" because i think most problems came from lying to each other ...
ed lied to the other 2 (dayJet was nothing real ...)
Wedge lied to the other 2 ( Fpj was not a mass of success , more a suit of problems badly addressed ...)
RiP lied to the other 2 ( money : he didn't have ...!)
together , they lied to all others ( cooked order-book ..., what about ABQ , etc...)
this is the only way i found to have some sens in this saga !
a perfect application of "Lying to a liar , is that lie ?"
- March 30, 2009 at 4:35 AM
- julius said...
a perfect application of "Lying to a liar , is that lie ?"
Remember Madoff - there were people, who didn't believe that everything was ok....
Or Enron: E.on made a check and decided not to take Enron...
Our three guys must have know that each partner had some "problems" or skeletons in the cupboard.
At least they did not only burn money but also their own reputations (Col.P etc. may have another point of view...).
What's the price for the "assets of EAC"?
My guess is $15 M!
And as second challenge:
when will the auction be finished (assets are passed to the new owner(s))- not like RiP!
- March 30, 2009 at 7:22 AM
- WhyTech said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- March 30, 2009 at 7:28 AM
- WhyTech said...
"Kent Kresa, a GM director since 2003, said in an interview late last year that Mr. Wagoner and other GM executives constantly underestimated the auto maker's troubles." (from today's WSJ)
This guy seems to have a knack for affiliating with companies that are in a death spiral. It seems that the GM board was snoozing even longer than the EAC board.
- March 30, 2009 at 7:32 AM
- fred said...
Julius :
Our three guys must have know that each partner had some "problems" or skeletons in the cupboard.
well , yes , probably ...
but i think it is a common deviance for most of human to sometime think with brain and some other times think with anything else ...
you see when Bankers did accept to buy in the subprimes , they couldn't ignore that real-estate prices do not go up "for ever" , so lending to credit-risks was anything except something clever ... (this is where shorter term can be painful to short-term , especially if mixed with greed ...)
this kind of situation did happen about everywhere and at any time in human history ...
the Merry-band had very good knowledge of each other failures , but they were too blinded by their own scheme and path to riches ...!!
what is important in this situation is that there is ALWAYS someone to warn others ...
the guy who did it about Enron was simply fired from his analyst job ...
it is very tricky and difficult to be right before everybody else ...
this is the term of lumpen-investors can be applied !
- March 30, 2009 at 8:23 AM
- Dave said...
Did Obama Drink the Eclipse Kool-Aid? Giving Kresa a promotion rather than kicking him off the board seems crazy.
- March 30, 2009 at 9:57 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Why did Wedge leave EAC??
1) RiP must have known it was going BK, and would have wanted a Scapegoat (ahem), I would think.
2) Wedge must have known it was going down too- why did he wait so long to leave, seems like he was cutting it pretty close- maybe a desprerate hope for IPO right after EASA cert?
- March 30, 2009 at 10:34 AM
- WhyTech said...
"Giving Kresa a promotion rather than kicking him off the board seems crazy."
The good ol' boys at work! Is there no justice?
- March 30, 2009 at 10:45 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Thanks for the tip on Chomsky's Profit-over-People book, I'll try to find a copy this week!
Also, what is your opinion of the Milton Friedman school of thought?
(Personally, I prefer to listen to an interview with Chomsky, but Friedman is dead now Nov 2009, so he's not as grating to me as he used to be).
- March 30, 2009 at 10:47 AM
- Dave said...
1) RiP must have known it was going BK, and would have wanted a Scapegoat (ahem), I would think.
2) Wedge must have known it was going down too- why did he wait so long to leave, seems like he was cutting it pretty close- maybe a desprerate hope for IPO right after EASA cert?
I think they were both delusional about the Russian money.
- March 30, 2009 at 10:49 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Hi Julius,
The link is broken (if it was a link):
What's the price for the "assets of EAC"?
My guess is $15 M!
(My guess is about that also, unless a "big player" gets involved- tbd- like Beechcraft, or foreign, in which case I could see it at $50M, I really think it is worth a lot more, but seems like it is the perfectly worst time to be on the market).
- March 30, 2009 at 10:54 AM
- bill e. goat said...
Dave, WT,
I agree about Kresa- drooling giggling idiot in the corner.
Looks snappy in a sharp suit though, and has a nice smile.
- March 30, 2009 at 10:56 AM
- WhyTech said...
"Until his resignation from GM, Wagoner had demonstrated a greater ability to save his job than to save the auto maker." (quote from WSJ - not directly an EAC matter, but with the interlocking boards, somewhat relevant for a slow day on the blog.)
Amen! I am not an Obama fan, but at least he had the testicular fortitude to do what the GM board should have done years ago. My gripe with this is that my tax dollars may be paying for Wagoner's parachute.
- March 30, 2009 at 11:00 AM
- WhyTech said...
"drooling giggling idiot in the corner."
Careful now, your turn will come! I see that it is emphasized that Kresa is "Non-Executive" chairman - which means "figurehead."
- March 30, 2009 at 11:02 AM
- julius said...
bill e.goat,
The link is broken (if it was a link):
It wasn't a link - a "b" would be better, sorry!
I think the fpj is still under construction and with the Garmin 400w just a dead-end street - the complete (AVIO-)concept must be reviewed!
Most of the better people will have gone ... or are not needed anymore as production is transfered to existing facilities...
We will see!
- March 30, 2009 at 12:27 PM