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100,000 yearly is definitely not middle classes in big cities!~ I would say for a family with 3-4people it should be at least 1 million yarly. 1000,000 RMB.
Hahahahaha ... locals says more than 200k, plus much of the goodies such as house and car, whereas Forbes says equivalance of between 10k and 50k ...
I think people are confusing the term middle-class with mere wealth here. Class is not just about money; there are numerous other factors to be considered in any discussion of class. Social and cultural capital would be two significant indicators.
There are Chinese lecturers, at some of the leading Universities in China, earning between are 5,000 and 10,000 per month- they are uneqivocally middle class.
A graduate from a top university might start in an office job paying between 3,000 and 4,000 a month; the fact that he/she is earning relatively small amount of money does not preclude him from being middle class.
Carlos is right: Middle class is not only referring to earnings here. It is referring to things like social and cultural capital, which determine things like access to social resources based on which "class" of friends one is accepted into, and this also has something to do with one's culture capital, which is much dependent on things like upbringing, learned habits, and how one "fits into the group" metaphorically speaking.
For example: The "new rich" in America are looked down on by the upper class because one can usually tell who they are by the way they act or how they spend their money. Its the same as the new rich in China that some say have "没有文化". Money does not buy class.........
But in a family that makes a certain amount of money for a sutained period of time and has time to develop their social and cultural capital at such a level with a similar class of friends, social acquaintances, and available opportunities will be considered to belong to a respective class.
It sounds like 1,000,000rmb is a bit much for a middle class. I would say that person would be a lower upper class member if we are just looking at money and not counting people who get rich over night.
Look at the income range white collar workers are making in Beijing and then you have your middle class wage range. It is rather low for now.
1000,000 RMB yearly around is the correct income of a mid classed family in China's big cities . a family got at least one house, two cars, one kid to afford. 80,000 RMB per month is not much , for a nice apt around 180 sqm in a good location, two cars and bilingual school for their child.
Thanks to all of the valuable comments.
To begin with I very much appreciate the fact pointed out by Carlos about how middle class has a lot to do with cultural and social capital. I understand and agree to his point, and at the same time what I wanted was a brief idea of what Chinese people would consider the lifestyle or living standard of a "middle class family."
Well i guess considering the current chinese living standards, Lao Lee's figure seems quite reasonable. For an easy comparison of prices and purchasing power, China shows a $2.27 while that of the US shows $4.07 on the big mac index of '11.http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2011/07/big-mac-index which would roughly mean that even still, things are twice as expensive in the US when compared with Chinese prices. (in general)
However the figure of a million CNY suggested by both my friend and Joligne would generally count somewhere clinging at the bottom range of the higher middle class even in the US. There is no way that $157k would count as lower middle class, except for the few top tier states and cities. Although living standards and prices are high in major Chinese cities when compared to other cities, it is hard to say that it would be the equivalent to similar sized cities in the US. To say that a million CNY is the "least" you need in order to sustain a mid class family in the major cities would be difficult.
http://www.china.org.cn/china/2010-01/23/content_19293900.htm shows that the Chinese idea of "middle class" may be different from that shared in other countries. At the moment it seems to be the most plausible explanation, at least to my understanding.
Different ideas are still welcome.
In my country being middle-class is not about money - it's whether you've been to university, if you read books and whether you holiday in France rather than Ibiza.
In America and China it is obviously more about money. Of course, being middle class is not about being directly in the middle bracket of income. I believe the average working wage in Beijing is about 3,000RMB a month. The last figure I read in an official source for Beijing and other first-tier Chinese cities was 8,000RMB a month for one earner to be considered middle class.I daresay two working parents and one dependant with 10,000RMB a month would could.
Some Chinese people will tell you it should be ten times higher. That's because they are showing off.
China is a very expensive place to live. the cost of living is much higher than the states if transportation and medi-care are excluded. 1000,000 RMB is not exaggerated at all. very reasonable. in years those so called middle class families are very likely to go disappear too if they are less carefully to make their financial plans.
China is a very cheap place to live. The cost of living is much lower than the States for almost everything.
(continued) ... the (legal) minimum wage in each city of China is determined by the each local government (or central?) based on regional economics, and I think the highest in China is Shanghai, something in the high thousand.
Let's be generous and round it all the way up to 2000 per month, or 24000 per year, a bit less than AUD$4000 ... that's about a little more than one month worth of salary of minimum wage in Oz, before tax ...
Lee, does that sound about right?
AUD $ 4000 a year? come on!~ even a student working part time as kicking off shit can earn that much per month if he/she got a bit "guan xi" . lol
(continued) ... huh? you have trouble reading?
I said, one year worth of minimum wage in China, is about one month worth of minimum wage in Oz ...
Sorry, my mistake, I read wrong, it should be about one and a half months ...
Australia's minimum wage is $15.51 per hour or $589.30 per week. Generally, employees in the national system shouldn't get less than this.
(continued) ... correction, Alex, "class" in China has absolutely nothing to do with size, and sadly, education ...
I have met some truly top class people who behaves better than people who has got good education and more money ...
no trouble of reading that , jsut shocked how u compared the people with the lowest income in CHina with poeple in OZ. i still think more than 50,000 RMB per month per person can be called as mid class. cos for all the classic things in China u have to pay a lot higher than in everywhere else in this world .
(continued) ... you are correct, it was a mistake ... what was I thinking ...
...but you are now saying that "cos for all the classic things in China u have to pay a lot higher than in everywhere else in this world" ...
... whereas about one hour ago, you said "China is a very expensive place to live. the cost of living is much higher than the states"
in the states $5 a meal u can eat very well. but Im sure OZ is more expensive than the US. in China , for the same quality , u have to pay much higher than those two countries i think. the cost of living in china is not only abt food. and the price of food is shoting up extremely fast tooo.
off to bed now...
Just as Jaret mentioned, being middle class means buying a toyota or a hyundai rather than possessing an a6 and a x5. a regular meal for someone who belongs in "middle class" will be a regular 20-50kuai meal in beijing, not a 1000kuai shark's fin soup in some fancy restaurant.
Joligne, you keep on saying that China is one of the most expensive countries to live in when it comes to living standards, however i believe that most people would have a hard time agreeing to this.
I've been traveling around quite much too, but I felt that Chinese prices are way cheaper when compared to North America (set aside Europe) or even countries nearby such as Japan or Korea.
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "cos for all the classic things in China u have to pay a lot higher than in everywhere else in this world"? If by this you mean bmws and mercedes, which surely are expensive compared to other countries, then I would understand. (but again this is the part that Jaret touched upon already) However apart from that, I can't really understand how one could call Chinese prices "the most expensive in the world." Which countries are you referring to exactly?
To the statement that you have to pay more for the same food in China, I think you are talking about real posh Italian cuisine run by Italians and all, but that's the same in every country except the country of origin. Imported things are always expensive. However the thing is that belonging in the "middle class" does not mean being financially able to eat the finest foods, dress in Italian suits, drive German cars and afford to go spend every vacation in Santorini.
(continued) ... I am very interested to find out, how much (on average) dose it cost to have a decent meal in States?
(continued) ... obviously, I dont even qualify as "lower class" ...
i don't even own a bicycle...
"in the states $5 a meal u can eat very well"
If you cook for yourself, maybe, but otherwise $5 US gets you something from the value menu at a fast-foot shit-pit.
Good effort Lao Lee, but you list is ridiculously unsophisticated. You've just picked a mode of transport, an apartment size, a baiju quality, eating habits and ratcheted it up a notch each time on a cost basis.
This is not going to give you a proper stratified class structure, though their may be some vague correaltion.
A more through investigation would have to consider knowledge, education, language, cultural tastes, career options, leisure or potential leisure time etc.
Yeah, stereotyping can be a bit boorish. Check this, and it's from the National Geographic... talk about pigeon-holing..
In order to discuss this question, I personally think there are a few things to be defined.
- What is typical life of middle class? It includes apartment, car, foods, health care, clothes, education etc.
- What's the cost to maintain life style of middle class?
- Geographically, we can devide China into 4-6 tiers. Here we are going to discuss tier 1-3 cities, such as Beijing/Shanghai(T1), Tianjin/Changsha(T2), Guilin/Chengde(T3).
One thing I want to point out here is, you compare the Mac Index between China and US. I would say, this may not be a good index for our topic. There are many hidden expenses in China which American needn't think about. Vice versa. However, hidden expense in future makes Chinese feel unsafe. Chinese has to remain high deposit rate as a pool to prevent any potential risks. For example, when you are seriously sick, government won't save your life if you can't afford the hospital expense. Also look at the rent return, in most cities in China, return remains at a pretty low level like 2-3% per annum. But Chinese needs to buy an apartment, not only for marriage and family, but also for the feeling of safety which is obviously what Chinese lacks of for thousands of years.
If you are interested in this topic, let's start from here.
Well I guess people have different understandings of middle class. I can roughly agree to what Lao Lee has given, although it really would be better if it included some of Carlos' criteria such as education level, career options (having a professional job), and potential leisure time. Other factors such as knowledge and cultural taste seem to be very subjective so I wouldn't say that it would count as much.
@Mr G actually your post is very interesting. To begin with, the idea that I have of a middle class family would be something like the above. What are the "hidden Chinese expenses" and the lack of "feeling of safety" that Chinese people have?
If you are talking about uncertainties such as unexpected medical expenses, I believe that even the middle class families in other countries will feel the same. Except for a few countries which have British or French style medcare, you will face financial difficulties if you have for instance a patient with cancer in your family.
In fact, I think that is where I would draw the line between the rich and middle class. The rich are the ones who don't really get to worry about these things, at least in the financial part.
(continied) ... Dave: " ... the rich are the ones who don't really get to worry about these things, at least in the financial part ..."
I dont really understand this one, can you explain?
If we intend not to lead this topic to a therotical and logical analysis, from my personal experience in these cities, it's easy to tell a number.
Per annum, per family, after tax.
@Mr G Hmm... was it the way I put it? In fact I was actually waiting for the analysis. Personally I really am interested, especially on what you mentioned as the feeling of insecurity that Chinese people have.
A good thread, Dave. Uncle Ding Dang's link is pretty objective.
With due respects, I think your friends are confused about the significant differences between "what they assume" and "what it is"; "middle-class" and "rich class". Not their faults though, China is a country with great disparity in wealth, also between regions, your question can even be a complicated subject for social-economic study.
Of course, if you are serious, you may take references of tax payment (based on legal incomes, not illegal gains from monkey business), saving (since the Bureau of Statistics has overlooked the price of real property when calculating CPI, we may ignore it as well) and consumption (credit card record for example).
The figures your friends mentioned are actually quite possible, especially when tax evasion is not even a moral offense here, given a condition though, that these "middle-class" usually run their own business or work for MNC, plus if they are active in the financial or property market, proceeds would be even more, however, it is unlikely for people working within the "system" to earn that much, even in the foreseeable future, although many claim they luckily gained "quite a bit" from the dropping stock market or won a lottery (like the "red cross" guy whose mistress drives a lamborghini :)
My personal observations are, genetically Chinese is an enthusiasm nation whose pursuit of first priority remains the earning of every coin, from selling silks to selling chidren, who have permanent but reasonable panic about the changing pension policies and being left dead and rotten alone at the front of hospital after being robbed, ergo, many have more savings. In contrast, many foreign friends (I am not saying who) are, proudly, descedants of slave traffickers, pirates and drug dealers, when they don't have, they just take more, either by creating a financial crisis or shotting some poor guys in the middle-east, which is very mild already as in the olden days, they simply created a camp to rob all the rich people there collectively.
1. Middle-Class is the smallest group of population here as the mass majority remain struggle for survival while the capitalists have most advantages here to raise more based on what they have.
2. Middle-Class indicates a certain standard and quality of life, education, medical care, recreation etc. However, we Chinese people have a different understanding about the quality of life, as one group would be very happy if they can afford a three course meal and some proper clothes sometimes while the other group insist that a life without possessional goods such as a BMW (drug-dealer style) and a range of ugly Louis Vuitton is a total failure.
3. It doesn't work to survey the middle class in terms of "per capita". We believe in "family prosperity". It is more than normal here if one perpetually unemployed lives a comfortable life while some who work their whole life end up to be hobos. I think someone above mentioned the annual family incomes, that is quite pertinent to the situation here.
Differ from the commonly acknowledged conclusion of Chinese pyramid society, I would rather see it in its original "bi-polar" form, the only change is that it is not divided by "rural or urban" anymore but rather "well-off or surviving". It is nice to point out though, we achieved great success in poverty alleviation, because most just hang themselves, I almost did once some years ago. Isn't it fabulous to live here, kind of makes me feel more alive :)
(continued) ... heehee ... Persephone actually mentioned my name, and in a nice way too, so I must have done something good ... now, how does that song goes again?
Mr G, there are plenty of people in Beijing earning way less than 150K per annum who are very, very middle class.
Some people still seem to be missing the point here. The classification we are using (Middle Class) is very subjective, but it is still worth investigating.
Firstly taste, cultural and social capital (whatever you call it) has a lot to do with it. I would refer people to Pierre Bourdieu on the subject. His book, 'Distinction: A social critique of the judgment of taste, deals with the topic of class stratification at length and very intelligently.
Wayne Rooney, and indeed most premiership footballers, are generally considered to be Working Class, yet at the same time they are incredibly rich. I appreciate that the English Class system is unique, but that does not mean some of what structurally underpins it cannot be replicated elsewhere.
Secondly, you have to consider that the vast majority of working class Chinese earn, between 800 and 1,600 a month; if you are earning four times the mode wage, then you are gonna be seen as pretty middle class, certainly by the majority of the country.
There are about a million 'Dollar millionaires' in China, a hell of a lot but still less than one percent of the population. This has to be set against a Middle Class of about 200 million- some of these do not earn huge amounts of money, they worry about medical care, they can't afford houses, but they are still middle class.
In all likelihood, they have been or are going University, have a white collar job, may have some savings, read the occasional book, and holiday now and then. All things a lot of the working class don't do very much.
Being Middle Class is not just about owning properties and BMWs…
Carols- We see this question from different angles.. Let say if you need to buy a small apartment, a car, and you have a child...150K? You can do the maths...
For ppl who already have an apartment and a car, the number lower than 500K is not too bad. You can be called middle class...
Logical analysis always needs number and classifcation. But the way here is also great.
150k per person a year is absolute low income class. can't afford an apt. can't afford car. no kid . no future...... only to survive in BJ!~
Okey dokey guys, it's official: Working Class Beijingers earn 150,000 Rmb per annum!
Ada Queen is right, you can't judge everything on money
Some funny stuff fyr.
We are discussing middle class, which is obviously related to money.
not judging by money , money is the betchmark for everything include "class". Carol said working class earns 150,000 yeaerly. that's working class , not middle class!!!! there are many hidden fees. there is no deduction on ur tax if u got housse morgage too in China. too many things to pay !~ so 150,000 RMB a year one can only survive in BJ!~
must be down to earth , practical , no money no class!
(continued) ... "no money no class" ... hahahahaha ... I wonder how much money does PUAMOG have ...
@Joline, are u talking about benchmark think.
I'm on bord with Kodi.
self motivated people always see the space for them to grow bettter. imiddle class in China is only a plausible excuse for governor and pliticians to brag.
@Joligne : I am sorry but you are disillusioned about what is middle class in a country whos income is as stratified as China's is. 50,000 a month middle class in China? 80,000 a month is not much? I wonder what your parents taught you about money..........
Those are USA numbers for middle class in America which I will remind you has the largest middle class population, but still the elite rich are way ahead of everyone else. Furthermore, you must look at the cost of living in China as opposed to the United States.
Making 50,000 rmb a month in Beijing is more than comfortable. making 80,000rmb is super comfortable. Maybe not enough to satisfy you ill taught (fuerdai) Chinese girls who are kept in the illusion that the only thing that matters is money when finding your way through life, but it would be well appreciated by many engineers, college professors, doctors, nurses, newspaper editors, telivision station staff, airline pilots, railway engineers, oilfield managers, physicists, scientists, lawyers etc....... These are all respectable jobs jobs that are considered middle class in the non-quanxi/ do it your self world where people make livings for the most part with their ability and not with what someone gave them or a chance they do not deserve.
Let me remind you that 50 years ago in China most this country was farming. A few people got opportunities and then they passed them on to their friends and then so on. Now we have some people with no middle school education driving Land Rovers ($300,000 USD) and you are trying to say that 50,000rmb is not much......... In China the income scale has not yet stabalized. It will as it did in Taiwan. This generation in China is very fucked up simply because it is placing far too much emphasis on material and not enough on value of expertise. The farmer is a valuable member of society, but should not be in charge of a gold mine. An engineer or someone who has experience in mining gold in the first place should be.
Undervaluing the people who are valuable according because ability and instead valuing people based on thei rability to make money in this unstable society will only lead to bigger problems in the future. Look at the history books. I don't know if you followed Chinese history, but I will bet that it will happen again over and over like it has in the past.
Makes you ask the question: Does China really have 5000 years of history or does it have 1 year of history repeated 5000 times? Traditional society......yes. History repeats itself......yes.
Learn something while you study abroad and then stay there because you come back and find your country does not value your work. Why do you think all the fucking people that have any ounce of valuable ability leave? Because someone who has guanxi takes the job they are supposed to have. Try to have a little foresight.
Growing up rich does not mean shit..... being able to maintain it on your own does.
Great discussion here.
I read an article about the vanishing Chinese middle class before. I think most of us here also realized the "bi-polar" hierarchy resurrecting. It is a sad thing. And this result is brewed when the policy of putting economic development at the first place was taken out, when they insisted the market-oriented economy with Chinese characteristics.
And I can't help wondering who to blame for this outcome, especially for a nation who believes that backwardness leaves you vulnerable to attacks, the policy makers? the market economy?socialism? Chinese culture? the 5000 years history?
For research, it is necessary and actually easy to analyse this economically. But I agree with those who believe that middle class is not only about how much money one can make. Anyone can ajust their life style and live happily with their salary. I think the difference between middle class with 50k/m and 80k/m is: the former read paperback books while the latter read hardcovers. But the content is the same.
What middle class?
(bong noises)
There was a cute and rather young girl on the menu yesterday. When I was looking at her pics I noticed this guy on her last visitors list
I was like "eeeeew".
Then I loled.
Sigh. What DID you guys do before the internet?
those so called middle class people are potential upper class but may remain working class / lower class. there is no stability for them to see the financial growing on their own. dont believe those datas and reports given by the Chinese government. they want you to have hope, but each should have your own 5 years plan, living better at each life stage. basicall in China, you can't . or u could have waited for the opportunity to get super rich in one day, as long as the policies changed or something like revolution happening....before that? working class still has to work to be alive,
at least being mid class u ought to feel safe, dont need to worry abt money, feel secure financially. but earning 150000rmb annually.......... really is there a future ? hell no.......
if u actrually settle down in China, BJ. or if u r Chinese. u would understand what I mean. not literally , but actrually feel the same as I do. a friend of mine, they live inside the second ring road. next to the financial street. 180sqm, 4brs apt. the couple are both at their mid 30. they have a daughter. they earn around 100,000RMB per month. two cars, their morgage is abt 10000 CNY & more, their daughter goes to bilingual kindergarden. they really want another child but the lady is so frightened of losing her job once she gets pragnant, because they will not be able to afford their current life style and keep their financial situation balanced. in my point of view, they are the middle class in China, a small group of people in the entire China mainland, people who r lack of foresight may see them as standarded upper class. but critally they are not......... they wont share the value of commiting themselves as upper class too. in China, every single family is quite different from each other especially in this fast changing society today. I would suggest that we must dig deeply into the Psychological & social background of these rare categray or class before making judgement on how to define the middle class in China. however, it would not simply decided by how much money they earn or evidences provided by meaningless governmental jargons. anyway,people use common sence would know it dead right that 150,000RMB per family annuall income( usual income of working class) is not middle class in China.
There's no middle class in China, just a few deluded fuerdai, amirite?
whatever. ... just be classy...
@Joligne: I agree with you that 150,000 rmb a year is standard for working class in China. However, can we agree that 50,000 a month in China is upper middle class? 80,000 a month would be upper right? There is such a gapping hole between the low and upper here in China that it is hard to define, but look at the average income gap between middle and lower. The lower are scraping the ground and then there is a large then the middle is holding up the upper class, so where would you decide the middle class ends and the upper begins?
I have a freind and he talks about his millions (of dollars) saying that he is just a little fish in a big pond, because all of his neighbors are billionaires......... I laugh at this when he considers himself middle class.
There seems to be a huge world of difference between the truely super rich and even the moderately rich just as in any country, but I think it would be safe to say that the middle class seems to be growing out of the bottom of the upper class instead of out of the top of the lower with a few exceptions of course.
The family that makes 100,000 rmb a month is upper class. You must consider where we are and the national average income. Its sad for them if they want more and can't be happy already. How much is enough just to be happy? Where is this pressure comming from? Why else would someone want to make money at all if it was not simply to live your life and be happy?
Quite right, Focus. I think Kodi is pretty spot on here,
"I agree with you that 150,000 rmb a year is standard for working class in China."
on the low end of middle class AKA "working class" Not to mention the hundreds of millions of working class that do not make it out of the lower class no matter how much they work.
@ Kodi
disagree : 50,000 RMB per month may not be the upper middle class in China, it depends on the individuals' personal situation, it could be much complicated, can not be elaborated just based on their salary.
you can not decide where the middle class ends and the upper class begins. none clear evaluation had ever done recently. same you can not decide where the lower class begins and where the middle class starts too. there is none conspicuous research evidence to be a margin to define them,
mathmatic methods or number of money incomes can not give reasons to how different classes related to each other either. that's why I pointed out that we should find other ways of doing it.
and the question from OP is Chinese middle calss. not how to be a happy Chinese middle class .
the working class in big metrololis in China are not happy. they see no ending of arduous struggles of earning their own apartments or houses in this life working for other people. people from country side somehow working in big cities seem happier than those city residents. because they earn more money than in their rural home towns and they could build spacious houses in the country side with a much cheaper price compared to in the big cities. now many city residents want a rural residency. it looks like one way of getting rich in a sudden.
I stand corrected. I would imagine the standard for the working class is between 10,000 and 20,000 per annum.
In America working class refers to lower middle, middle class, and upper middle classes. I guess it is hard to superimpose our class definitions onto a society that is something different alltogether. There would first need to be some real sociological work done in China if we are to outline its characteristics according to the Chinese system and worldview. Sociology is a field developed in the West, so please forgive my ignorance.
"I agree with you that 150,000 rmb a year is standard for working class in China."
"on the low end of middle class AKA 'working class'"
That number sounds considerably less "standard" if it's straddling two categories.
To SUM UP! It is believed Chinese middle class would have to earn 1000,000 RMB/ family, annually! ( maybe it gets higher now due to the reason of economic inflation) that's where they start to have hope of mantaining they middle calss status and have a chance to become upper class. you can't deny that we all want to get rich , earn more money . cos money is the language of the world. no money no life. no taste, no class. can't be truely happy without moeny. unless u were born in the rain forest.
"In America working class refers to lower middle, middle class, and upper middle classes."
That's just fucking weird...
I'll keep my speculation away from the numbers, but I will say that: people in Beijing are acting a lot more "middle class" than they were 7 years ago. Just in terms of their attitudes toward modern things like credit cards, cars, exercise, and nutrition, I'm seeing a lot less of an inferiority complex and a lot more measured attitude about how & why to integrate these things into their lives. It's really a lot more pleasant today than it was.
Errr...then grass roots like me should commit suicide!
I hate people treat animals like that . ~
Shit is about to get real.
@Joligne, I hate obnoxious children who have no concept of privilege.
1,000,000 RMB per year would make someone moderately wealthy in the USA, where the cost of living is considerably higher. In China, that would be extremely wealthy. You've taken for granted that you've been talking about upper class people during this entire discussion, and it's fucking nauseating.
@Kodi, "In America working class refers to lower middle, middle class, and upper middle classes."
To most Americans, working class might overlap slightly with the lower middle class, unless you're a Marxist, in which case there is no middle class--just a very large and stratified working class controlled by a capitalist class. I really doubt that's where you're going with this.
The distinction between middle class and working class has traditionally been based on where a person's income is being spent. If most of a person's money goes toward food, rent, and savings, they're working class. They're struggling to get by.
If they have considerable disposable income to spend on entertainment, fashion, status symbols, and other things which are not necessities (a car is not necessary for most Chinese people; in most of America, it is because of our shitty suburban planning paradigm), they are middle class, if you believe in that sort of fairytale bullshit. Personally, I think commodity fetishism and the acquisition of objectively meaningless status symbols is symptomatic of the rat race, and these people are just fooling themselves.
If a person makes less money from their labor than from other sources like investments, they are no longer a part of this discussion because they're bourgeoisie or capitalist class. And yes, I would include a lot of mid-level managers and supervisors in this category, because their income is based on the surplus value generated by their subordinates.
This thread disgusts me.
@Dando, you can't use american standards to define Chinese middle class. as I said there is no real middle classes. but if you have to find the middle class here in China. i would say that 1000,000RMB annually is reasonalbe price. u disgust me!
(continued) ... hahahaha ... how did a discussion about money and general social status become "you disgust me"? Joligne, like I had told you before, and do excuse me for repeating due to old age, stop your prejudice about other people ... and stop making things personal ...
Obviously, up to now, all of us have different standards regarding "middle class", some uses mainly (and only) money, while some uses social status, and some others uses a mix of it ...
Based on Joligne's standard, only a very tiny group in China can meet the requirement of "middle class", which can be quite a worry because although the "rich" folks made up of the tiny top of the pyramid, there should still be a large enough population in the "middle", hence "middle class" ... I am more concerned about, how will this affect the country and the rest of the world ...
@Joligne, I compared standards, and I say that your arbitrary 装逼 standard is even more excessive than that of the decadent American imperialists.
in france the middle class is 3,000,000 RMB annually, and even i get 1,800,000 RMB annually i'm always under middle class. as a survive job , then imagine i'll chose another work earn even less. so i am far more under the middle class ... ...
as i know, a small film producer hit 9,600,000 and. even so, he's just a middle class . the same case as a technical consulting , 5,000,000 - 6,000,000 annually ...
so i guess another class shoud be separated from the middle class
? a special middle class ehm ?
Ok, ok, let's take a break for a while and talk about us. How would you rate us foreigners making about 15,000rmb per month only in teaching English and those making about 40,000 per month; yet no car, no self owned apartment, no wife, no children and in some cases no savings? In what class are we?
May I suggest people with experience from other countries apart from US and China be involved.
@Dando, shame on you. u dont consider urself as a Chinese do u ? stop messing with me. as an expat in China u can only represent your own stand point. BTW, 你他妈的才装逼!傻~
@ MICKY, you are not Chinese . for ur different life styles . you have no class , not Chinese middle class. u r Chinese foreigner upper class. you dont have burden like Chinese . not even paying the tax in China~ ...........
please if u r not Chinese , dont speak like u r Chinese . even Chinese dont know where the middle class in China come from. stop comparing Chinese living standard with america. 3000USD in China, for one person without car, apt , wife child can living a luxury life . but we are talking about Chinese........
To be considered part of Joligne's middle class, Chinese people need to make even more money than the spoiled foreigners. Good luck with that, kids.
@ Dando, sha bi !~
(continued) ... Joligne ... stop being hysterical ... I cant see anyone here talking "like" Chinese ... hell, how to even talk "like" a Chinese?
You said "even Chinese dont know where the middle class in China come from" ... then ... what's the problem here?
It must be very lonely up there, Joligne. I pity you.
@ uncle DD, the problem is someone started to insult me ! I'm not taking shit from here . for those who throw it to me , i throw it back to them !~
@Joligne, Your insufferable pretensions are an insult to Chinese people specifically and working people in general. Several other people pointed this out more politely, and you only reiterated your deluded opinions without compromise.
Enter the Dando. I have no respect for those who disrespect others.
It's a good thing you're saying this nonsense in English, or your countrymen would have harsher words for you than I do.
(continued) ... so, it is about personal insult, but not a discussion? then make it personal, but stop bringing race issue into it ...
yes it is hard , so stop dreaming you will become one of t he Chinese middle class in China. u ssee the beijing city , all the expensive sopts are domainated by foreigners. the properties in Bj belongs to Chinese upper class. most commoners have been relocated out of the second ring road. there is only 20% beijinger remain inside the 2nd ring road.
@ uncle DD, u see that Dando trash now is so much into relational gang with Chinese countrymen now. from now on I'm going to ignore him. let that jerk talk shit~ wahahahahahaha
Could we get an educated 无产阶级 here to set this degenerate 小资产阶鸡 right?
@godfather. u r wrong , I dont even know u , i wont hold grudges against any foreigners. so there is no stupendous nonclalant ill feelings of me .
I am a pure Educated 无产阶级here !~~~~ i wonder where do u belong to ? degenerate american 鸡? 哇哈哈哈哈
+1 The War
If she were a manga character, Joligne's special shability would be Maximum Proud Install.
not as maximumly installed as the zhuangbility Dando trash!~
sha bi Dando!~ YOU HAVE NO BALLS !~
That's right. This 太监 got to where he is now just by showing a little bit of talent with a historically dominant trade language, like a good little Confucian scholarly official.
Praise be to the celestial bureaucracy!
hahaa , that make sense now . 太监 , trash, keep thinking ur little showing off as ur eternal eraction !~ 废物!~
man... i've just stayed off this thread since it became a bit messy. but seriously, i have the feeling that some people really have the wrong numbers in their head... wrong statements about incredibly high figures of the living standards in European countries and the US only make me wonder if they really have been to those countries to say such things... Seriously, I've spent enough time myself in Europe and I have far too many North American friends to believe those numbers to be true. There seem to be some people who share a rather different idea of middle class, and a rather misleading picture of foreign living standards, which i would rather not start arguing about.
The conclusion I can reach so far would be that the 100k-150k range seems to be most widely accepted both among locals and foreigners. Also it seems right in accordance to the again, "widely accepted" notion of middle class. It seems especially true with the current living standards in the top tier cities quite low when compared to all the other countries which people have been throwing over the table.
Female anatomy.
again global living standards is not the twisted living standards in China........
again China living standards is not the twisted living standards on Planet Joligne........
@fat burger Dando:
yes it is , i mean the class standards, like lower, middle class whatever . no matter what u say , u can't change what I believe! so stop talking to me ! 150000 per year is lower working class, ask Chinese who earn this much , they will tell u 1000,000 can change their miserable life from lower class to a mid class in essence!
"no matter what u say , u can't change what I believe!"
"150000 per year is lower working class"
"ask Chinese who earn this much , they will tell u 1000,000 can change their miserable life from lower class to a mid class in essence! a unicorn with a gilded saddle galloping over a rainbow into a candy castle in the clouds"
人不犯我, 我不犯人!~
不是中国人, 就别装成中国人在这里指手画脚的!!
higher social status needs higher maintance fee, like 13% GDP is contributed by CCP. and for the same reason , middle class chinese needs a lot of money to keep their income stability. their voriety differences can not be discussed in detail here. it requires a large quantity of reserach works to b done . but 1000,000 RMB annual income for a 3-4 people Chinese family is very capable of being mid-class from now till 3-5 years later. .....
1,000,000 RMB annual income for a 3-4 person Chinese family is very capable of combining into a giant robot battleform and defending Beijing from alien invaders.
Or they would, if they weren't busy raping the other ~99% of Chinese people.
@ shitty Dando :
really has nothing in common with you. could u please just shut the fuck up for a while ? 80000 RMB monthly is not much to afford , kid, nanny, apt, cars school, plus u need to save as much as you can for your kid to go to univ till they get a master degree before they combat in this society. and you can't always earn that much till u get 45 above. u have to think a better way of earning more money, when u get old like having ur own biz . or maybe invest ur money on something , but there really is nothing u can invest in to make more money from now till 5 years later. especially in China , everything is controled in the government's hand. why dont u just go home!~
>masters degree
>middle class
I tried asking some Chinese people who make 1,000,000 RMB/year, but they're not in China right now.
keep asking more Chinese . u r not paying attention on finding them, they were in China yesterday. unfortunately u 've being too lazy to miss them out while u still can.
I can't be bothered. I'm too busy jacking off. Why don't you go find these magical Chinese people pulling >1,000,000 RMB per year and bring them back here to explain themselves.
Use this.
r u saying that u r too busy to jerking off ? wanker !~ i dont give a damn shit on u. u've already agreed on waht i said. plus even if u find those 1000,000 annual earners , they will still tell u they are poor people. cos they will all think u r brain damaged idiot!~
(continued) ... Dando ... tried as I might, I failed to see what's the fun here ...
Dear uncle DD: what's the difference of being australian Chinese (maybe taiwanese) and aussie? humbly asked !
Joligne, apart from everything else,
"不是中国人, 就别装成中国人在这里指手画脚的?"
I really do hope that not many people think the way you do, since I sure as hell love to talk with locals about Chinese society, politics and economics just for the sake of understanding the country a little better. Plus, you seem to want to make the division of locals and laoweis who have no idea what they're talking about. However it is not difficult to see that not many locals on the forum seem to agree with you, while the no-clue laoweis at the same time came up with some pretty reasonable arguments.
Just an advice for you to enjoy the forum better, I think you really need some anger management while learning how to engage in a productive "debate" rather than a meaningless keyboard-warrior brawl.
Today I showed this thread to my friend with whom I had the original conversation with, and she was frankly quite surprised to see how much fuss that was made out of it. After reading the thread and a little more talk, we found out that her idea of a middle class didn't really match the common understanding of the phrase. It seems for some reason that the word 中产 has a rather posh ring to it for Chinese people. This was my bad since I didn't really go over the term prior to the discussion, since I assumed that everyone would share pretty much the same picture.
It's getting late. I should go to bed and dream up some more ideas to jazz up this science fiction short story about a Chinese family of three or four which makes 1,000,000 RMB/year and defends Beijing from alien invasion by combining into a giant robot battleform thanks to the secrets of an esoteric anti-capitalist monetary policy taught to them by a mysterious extradimensional entity known only as the Joligne.
Working title: Maximum Proud Install.
I'll be signing copies for WLIB users to roll into spliffs or burn for heat.
@ dave:
thanks for ur advice , dont worry abt me , i'm pretty good at anger management. and I enjoy disscussing this topic. i just did what i have to do . i hope people would not just challenge me with personal attack. actually there are not many Chinese giving their thoughts abt this on this forum, and I am not that kind of person who change what I believed in easily. I think if u ask more Chinese people from different background abt the" Chinese middle class " , u will be surprised even more. the numbers of income i've been giving out may not be exactly correct in scale range of the Chinese population in total. but it can some how indicate the vigous energy beneath the surface is waiting for its chance to come up out of the water.
if u want to know more abt Chinese middle class, u better heard them out by urself from real Chinese. not just on some english forum. the scenarios they have in mind will be surprisingly different. at the end, i hope u wont make ur analysis and judgement simply by their expecting incomes but their inner thoughts of how to live an ideal life in their home country.
there are lots of things need to be defined and clear before u come up to a conclusion about your title.
how much is 2000USD in RMB ? the currency exchange rate now is abt 6.4 i guess . the american want this to be like4-5 in a short time. and the RMB is much more valued internationally. so I guess pretty soon many Chinese will earn like 2000USD per month ?
only when those 150000 annual income chinese family can earn 10,00,000 RMB every year, China will finally stand up in this world. otherwise the poor gets poorer, rich gets richer.
You don't quite realise this yet but you embarass yourself every time you post in this thread.
When so many people disagree with you, it's likely that the problem has nothing to do with cultural differences (and this gets overused so much) or with a personal vendetta, but simply that you're wrong.
(continued) ... Daniel ... good luck ... hahahaha ...
Joligne ... as far as "humble" is concerned, you have (and are) none of that, but if you "said" so ... what's the difference of being australian Chinese (maybe taiwanese) and aussie?
Ans: I will make a very loud and daring assumtion that you possibly know what is set theory ... "aussie" is the big set, while Australian Chinese is a subset ... it is like, what is the difference between being you and being Chinese?
You also said ... actually there are not many Chinese giving their thoughts abt this on this forum ... hahahaha, that's because they dont want to talk to you ...
@ 叮噹叔叔 (零零柒。伍) , i never heard any australian Chinese said they are aussies , only the local whites and immigrants from other country called them that. there are not many Chinese giving this thread their opinions because they dont want to talk to people like u . NOT me. most Chinese dont care abt this topic at all. only foreigners.
@Daniel: how many is so many ? i never used culture difference this term to defence myself. and i dont give damn shit on personal vendetta. if u think i am wwrong , go and ask millions of chinese's opinions abt this topic first.
(continued) ... hahahaha ... obviously, you have only met a tiny little circle of Australian Chinese, who only wanted to get a passport ... if you ask them a simple question of how many codes of football are there in Oz, my guess is that they dont know, but they are most likely to say "soccer" ...
... or if you asked them about Australian cricket, they will tell you that it is a noisy insect ...
... hell ... you are so far out of reality that you should watch a few episodes of "Big Brothers" or "Australian Idols" ...
It's strange ... why would ONLY foreigners care about this? I would bet that those earning less than 1m per year would like to become a "middle class" too, right?
... also, just a stab in the dark ... and hopefully, it wont hurt too much ... my guess is that you are NOT currently making 1m per year, and then you are just a wannabe?
how much do u think a chinese middle class family should earn annually? i would say it's a quite difficult question to answer,since it depends a lot on where the CHinese middle class family is living different living costs in different cities and towns.
for example in beijing, if u want to make a living here to survive , it should be at least 10,000 RMB per month per family in Beijing I would say. no foreigner is really sure abt the Chinese definition of middle class here. and working class can earn much less than that sometimes.
middle class in beijing should earn 750,000 -1000,000 RMB annually. the real upper class here dont need income. dont need to buy any properties. they got them from our government for free. i'm not quite sure abt the real upper class sicne they are very crruppted beside those free properties they might still have billions cash.
Chinese dont talk abt this with you because they know they can only be a wanna be. there is no shame of being a wannabe. i'm currently a working class in BJ. Having hope has nothing wrong with it, we all want a better life.So I'm also telling the truth , i'm not a big fan on peeping others naked in a show. not like u king of lame, only interested in probe around ( heard that from people who stay here longer than me). I'm not into voyeurism, sorry. and I think i'm pretty realistic too.
I am guessing that they are foreign teachers living in Beijing and earning something like 12,000 but they haven't realized that that is a starting salary for foreigners and just a regular salary in Beijing
To those of you just now tuning in for another exciting episode of True Ox Cunt Ultra Radical Outer Space Economist Joligne: Maximum Proud Install Overdrive, let's review:
"kid, nanny, apt, cars school, plus u need to save as much as you can for your kid to go to univ till they get a master degree before they combat in this society"
Emphasis added.
To Western sociologists, the distinction between working class and middle class has always been based upon the proportion of a person's disposable income compared to cost of living. Nannies, cars, and post-graduate educational degrees are not part of normal people's costs of living. They are not necessities. You can live without them. They are status symbols. People who can afford these things are unequivocally wealthy. Your definition of middle class is based on lifestyle expectations far beyond the means of most people.
If you don't like that definition, then when you discuss this topic with English speaking sociologists, you should use the term middle class with Chinese characteristics or Chinese imagineering class instead of Chinese middle class. We're not changing the definition of a commonly accepted sociological term to suit your uniquely fucked up idea of reality.
That said, I don't believe in distinctions between working class and middle class, mostly because consumer society has brainwashed so many idiots into thinking that luxuries like multiple automobiles, domestic servants, and post-graduate academic degrees are necessary for human survival, when it's really just shit people spend money on to demonstrate their wealth--no, excuse me, part of the Chinese imagineering class.
When I read this thread, I imagine Marx and Mao are in Hell, drinking 二锅头 out of a trash can and huffing paint, softly weeping about commodity fetishism and reification.
kid, nanny , apt car, school they are commonly accepted necessities for every Chinese family. and in bejing these cost lots of money. u just want to see all Chinese are still living in shelters, lonely, desperate, hopeless.....
open ur eyes, u actrually living in BEIJING right ? or u r living in a fucked up BJ?
How many members of your Chinese imagineering class are going to end up "living in shelters, lonely, desperate, hopeless" if they have to clean their own homes, cook their own food, and use public transportation?
These aren't necessities.
They are luxuries.
Your pretentions are disgraceful to the noble austerity of the Chinese people, and you bring great shame to your ancestors, for whom the merchant class (商) was conceived of as representing the bottom of the traditional social hierarchy because they produced nothing and profited from the works of others.
u dont have a Chinese family in BJ. u honestly dont know anything abt how a Chinese family live here. they are not luxuries. a working couple needs to pay lots of things for their kid, home themselves. 你是站着说话不腰疼!
Your pretentions are disgraceful to the austerity of the Chinese people, and you bring great shame to your ancestors.
@ focus 222:
if u admit u dont know much abt the american society as an american. how could u be so certain that you know well about Chinese society ?
I dont like someone's attitude either. I'm open to discussion. but i still dont see a strong point or fact to change the way i'm thinking.
(continued) ... Joligne wrote: i'm not a big fan on peeping others naked in a show. not like u king of lame, only interested in probe around
... and I thought that was a good entry point for the Pussy and/or the Snake ... anyway, since you did not get what I said ... I just use those as reference that you have lost touch with reality, which, I'm open to discussion. but i still dont see a strong point or fact to change the way i'm thinking ... you are ...
[supp, after 5 min] ... based on what is said below, just because you dont know (nor care) about America or Australia, it does not reflect the same thing about people from those (and many other) countries ...
@ 叮噹叔叔 (零零柒。伍):
if u really wanted me to get what you said. you would not mention abt big brother or australian idols, these shows certainly has nothing related to reconnecting with the reality. i suggest you pay more attention to the drought and bush fires in OZ...
(continued) ... hahahaha ... I think I finally get you ... your logic is all about 各人自扫门前雪,莫管他家瓦上霜... is that about right?
@ the war:
we all think the way we want. i never said i'm from middle class , i said i'm educated wu chan jie ji , working class in BJ. rolling it up, u will find it somewhere. the fact is fact, nothing abt enjoy or not. i wonder how many orgasms do u get by typing 1000,000 RMB here every time?
partially correct. I truly think what i mentioned was very close to every single chinese soul living in beijing.
i believe middle class shall feel none anxious and insecure. but it's hardly achievable at this stage of developing China. that's why so many rich Chinese want to live overseas. giving up their Chinese citizenship.
@ the war.
rule 1: Dont ever and never try to tell me what should I do.
can I just ask u to leave China for home too ?
i hold no grudge to Guo Mei mei. she is only a symbol. and thanks to her , after her show , no one donates even a cent to the Chinese Red Cross.
(continued) ... hahahaha ... I think you had said that, but just to make very certain ...
So, in conclusion, you believe that no one (from overseas) has any authority and/or right to discuss this?
@ 叮当叔叔:
i think everyone has the right to discuss this, but it's a complicated question, it's hard to make other peple agree on what you believe. foreigner usually travel a lot , they've been to many places in China. they think they know more abt China then local Chinese. but traveling around is quite different from truely living in one place. you only get to see the surface in an objective view. but when u r actrually living in somewhere and planning to stay longer you will feel diffferent.
Chinese dont care abt being a middle class, we all just want to live a better life as everyone else does in this world. if u have to add a quote to "the middle class" , many other things shall be defined clearly first.
@ Ami,
as i know Chinese government only acknowledge one nationality once u get other nationality , urr Chinese nationality will be revoked.
(continued) ... it's hard to make other peple agree on what you believe ...
I think most people on this thread feel the same way about you ...
Chinese dont care abt being a middle class ...
Q: then why did you make it such a "crusade" with what you say? you could have just as easily said this at the beginning, and avoided most of the unnecessary "discussion" ... you might want to think about that ...
@ 叮当叔叔:
we dont care , cos we can only be a wannabe, but still have dreams , once the dream come true. of course everyone wants to earn 1M a year !!! that's my life goal !~ wahahha
(continued) ... your "action" speaks otherwise ...
@Daniel: how many is so many ? i never used culture difference this term to defence myself. and i dont give damn shit on personal vendetta. if u think i am wwrong , go and ask millions of chinese's opinions abt this topic first.
I refer you to the following statements:
if u want to know more abt Chinese middle class, u better heard them out by urself from real Chinese. not just on some english forum. the scenarios they have in mind will be surprisingly different. at the end, i hope u wont make ur analysis and judgement simply by their expecting incomes but their inner thoughts of how to live an ideal life in their home country.
u dont have a Chinese family in BJ. u honestly dont know anything abt how a Chinese family live here.
if u actrually settle down in China, BJ. or if u r Chinese. u would understand what I mean.
if u admit u dont know much abt the american society as an american. how could u be so certain that you know well about Chinese society ?
In case you still don't understand, let me explain to you what you are doing: anything you disagree with in this forum you waive away through referencing cultural difference, and your comments to this effect can be paraphrased as 'You don't know what you're talking about because you're not Chinese'. What amazes is that you have this attitude and yet have chosen to contribute to this question on a foreign-owned social networking site. If you had critical thinking skills, you'd realised that communicating a 'Only Chinese people can fully understand facets of Chinese society' attitude on this platform isn't going to win you many fans.
Furthermore, this way of thinking is ridiculously reductive and fatuous. For instance, the logic behind your statements is the same as the logic behind the following:
- You can't comment on terrorism because you're not a member of a terrorist organisation.
- You can't criticise the Nazis because you're not a German national from that era.
- You can't discuss a foreign-owned forum's conception of the Chinese middle class because you're not from outside China (see what I did there? :P )
All of these things are obviously wrong, but only as much as the one that you're also presenting.
Regarding Chinese Nationality, it is possible to pay (a lot) for dual citizenship: how do you think Chinese students get into International Schools?
It's okay though, you just need to understand Chinese society a bit better. Maybe once you've lived here a bit longer. :P
@Joligne, you can put your dreams in one hand and shit in the other hand.
Tell us: which one will fill up first?
@ Ami:
i never tried , u can try and find out abt that
@ Dando ,
i'll shit in ur hand first!~
Bring it.
@ Daniel:
foreign-owned social networking site in China or out side of China? that makes huge difference :P
@ Daniel:
ur judgement on my attitude and cultural orientation could not be admitted.
@ Danniel:
are you foreigners living in China or extraterrestrial beings ?
actually - i think some international schools do not allow Chinese nationals to study with them. r u talking abt Chinese students study in China or out of china?
(continued) ... and I thought you said you dont care? You are more a walking contradiction ...
@ 叮当叔叔, i said I dont care what ? how can i paste a pic here? can i only paste the linkage from other site or I can upload my own images?
Joligne wrote (posted 33 minutes ago) ... we dont care ...
just wait when i figure out how to upload a pic here , u will get ur first poo fill in ur hand.
@ ding dang shu shu , u dont know what we dont care abt how couldu say i'm walking contradiction.... ?
(continued) ... scroll up, read what you said ...
@ ding dang :
I did , u said i'm more a walking contradiction....... it's ur turn now!~
@ Moon:
what do u think a chinese middle class family should earn annually in beijing?
thanks moon~
(continued) ... Scott ... have you taken your meds today? you have gotta learn to let it go ...
(continued) ... hahahaha ... like the proverb I read from the mobile news today, there are things in life that's best we never know ...
... e.g. why did god ever approve the existence of PUAMOG (and Joligne), why does Kevin like Kim K (and Rosie O), why is LL a woman, why am I so damn handsome ... etc etc etc ...
China's impressive economic expansion in recent years has brought with it an emerging middle class:
The Chinese economy is expected to expand at an annual rate of 10.0% in 2007 and 9.8% in 2008. Meanwhile, inflation is expected to be relatively low, at an annual rate of 1.8% in 2007 and 2.2% in 2008. This means that the purchasing power of the Chinese consumer as a consequence of rising incomes and economic expansion will hardly be eroded by inflation.
The middle class is expected to rise to 700 million by 2020 (compared with less than 100 million in 2007). This large number will transform the Chinese consumer market. In order to succeed in this market, it is essential that firms begin to target and promote their brands among this middle stratum of the market.
Although the government is also exerting efforts to reduce the incidence of poverty and narrow the wealth gap, the middle class will continue to congregate in towns and cities in the medium term. Thus, market potential will likely be found in urban areas.
A new Volkswagen and a Singapore vacation are the badges of affluence for one Chinese couple. But consumer choice, not political choice, is the only freedom China's middle class now enjoy.
easy easy
in us the stand should be 7500k USD for famliy
but here! 15k RMB per month i can live very happy :)
who care about what class
i have everything i need
i am happy!
runway model ?
next time can you use some easier word!
i use 5 mins to find out what the F meaning of schlong.
Every single ayi in Beijing is from a rural area. Their labor is only affordable now because of the uneven levels of development between the urban and rural areas. To observe that many Chinese families are employing domestic servants might be a sign of individual wealth, but it is most certainly a sign of national poverty.
As China develops and the country becomes developed and wealthy as an entire nation, there should be fewer people willing to submit to such degrading work.
If you think China will only be "developed" when it starts employing maids and nannies from Western countries, then you're not actually talking about accelerating Chinese development. Rather, you're talking about accelerating poverty in other countries.
But maybe that's what happiness means to some people: seeing other people being miserable.
(continued) ... Dabizi ... no offence, but your definition of a "balanced future" has a rather obvious personal agenda ... the classificaion of middle class in China should not be related to how much you feel obliged to serve ...
(continued) ... so you are just trying to calm the "fire" of this discussion? Excuse me for being stupid, but I failed to see what you have tried to say so far ...
in Beijing , an ayi , 2000RMB per month, some could get up to 5000 RMB or more, for example those ayi live in central park apt. i've been told they earn 4500RMB a month.
@ dabizi :
you prefer foreign ayi than Chinese here in BJ ?
@Dabizi: LOL , i'd love to have a foreigner as ayi and pay me 3800 per month for that tiny duty. wahahahahaha
"but if you have to find the middle class here in China. i would say that 1,000,000RMB annually is reasonalbe price."
@Joligne: So are you middle class?
You do understand to be middle class you must be in the middle right?
One who earns 1,000,000rmb a year can undoubteldy buy a house or condo here. Everything does not have to be purchased in cash these days although that is undoubtedly the preferred method used to buy things in China. This person may not have the best of the best, but they are at the top of 99 percent of Chinese citizens in terms of income and quality of life by urban standards.
I heard that eating each other alive and ruthlessly discriminating based on race, occupation, income, degree of power and any other thing you can use to differentiate yourselves from one another is the best way to live in a peacful society.......
Once again, being middle class is not about having what some Chinese people think of as a Western standard of living (owning a home, two cars, university education) or about being at or above the median income.
The determinant of one's middle class status is what proportion of a person's income purchases basic living necessities (food, rent, clothing, healthcare), and what proportion of a person's income purchases entertainment, luxuries, and status symbols (cars, fashion, electronics, higher education, beer, drugs, porn; virtually everything else you could survive without, no matter how much you think you need it).
I feel this is a very straightforward development-oriented definition that fits any country. Most importantly, it's objective, and accommodates the swelling and shrinking of the middle class in proportion to the rest of the population in response to economic trends.
Sorry, Chinese folks, but a middle class lifestyle in China is not going to be identical to the mere illusion of a Western middle class lifestyle you've built in your heads from watching too much American television. That's just not possible in Asia. Y'all gotta live so much closer together (something we Westerners should have been doing all along!)
Because China so many people.
Ugh I hate saying that.
basic needs are just for survival in everywhere. even for many necessary foods or commodities basically needed the price in beijing is more expensive than many ther cities around the world. u just could not stand that most chinese people will or want to get richer. because there are too many people in China.
"even for many necessary foods or commodities basically needed the price in beijing is more expensive than many ther cities around the world."
lolwut? Prices in American cities for food, rent and other necessities are waaaay higher than in Beijing. Do you eat gold-plated caviar for breakfast or something?
Rent is the only thing in Beijing which is expensive compared to other international cities, but even that is easily remedied by commuting from the suburbs. It's less comfortable to ride public transportation for an hour before work, but it's certainly not a threat to one's survival. Don't confuse middle class angst with working class struggles.
I didn't say "China too many people." I said "China so many people." Understand the difference?
I know a guy who makes 30k a month and manages to still need to borrow money from his broke girlfriend.
I also know a guy who makes 10k a month and has a plasma TV and rents 3-story house in the suburbs. It's about how you spend what you've got.
If you have healthcare, savings for emergencies, atequate shelter, and enough money to indulge your hobbies and take a vacation every now and again, you're middle class. Anything on top of that is gravy.
i insist on comparing with the Chinese middle class world widely. as such groceries and clothes are rather expensive. some of articles daily used are economically priced. but not only rental, gas and other stuffs etc. are expensive......
many workers would rent a tiny place in the inner city rather than travelling on public transportation for long hours to work everyday.
maybe you dont think there are too many people in China, but there really are too many people in beijing, the population, buildings, cars, roads are expending everyday. rich people are not obvious to see now, which makes people like me earning a little struggling on the bottom line of surviving in this huge city.
"i insist on comparing with the Chinese middle class world widely."
Just take a guess here: what percentage of the world's families has two cars, owns a home, and pays for a master's degree out of their own pocket? Even if you were to make a worldwide comparison, your idea of a middle class lifestyle is luxurious by the standards of other developing countries.
"many workers would rent a tiny place in the inner city rather than travelling on public transportation for long hours to work everyday."
This is a luxury. They don't have to do this in order to survive. If they can afford to make this kind of a decision, they are by definition not working class, but middle class.
very simple , the best location in beijing are taken by foreigners. if CHinese want to live there. we must earn as much as foreigners earn. it's not because Chinese want to live like western life style. the government leaves us no choice.
笑話一則:隆乳膏~ ^_^!
"the best location in beijing are taken by foreigners"
Bullshit. Shunyi sucks balls. I wouldn't live there if you paid me.
shun yi is close to the air port. many foreigner living there.
most expensive locations in BJ are the favorate places taken by foreigners. and super rich Chinese. consider this fact. it's hardly to convience Chinese not try and measure up to western living styles. maybe the social welfare system ....
"the best location in beijing are taken by foreigners"
There are not many good locations in Beijing anyway. But the few of them are taken by corrupt officials...
corrupt offcials dont live there , they rent them out to get their cash flow stabily balanced
Some middle class in China don't make that much money, the reason they are rich because they don't need to spend money on anything.
Damn, I am reading this thread again. whatever, I just don't believe this so-called middle-class thing exists in China. So guys, can we just drop it? too much crap on this, and seeing someone constantly showing their worship of money makes me feel real sick.
Far more of the real estate market is dominated by speculators and landlords than by foreigners. Foreigners are just a drop of water in the bucket.
(Because China so many people.)
As a Marxist, I am suspicious of the idea of "middle class," and instead see it as a privileged extension of the working class.
As this thread demonstrates, we are so brainwashed by consumer society that we think there are things in life that we need to survive, but in reality they just make life easier. The distinction between necessity and convenience is blurred.
Take, for instance, Joligne's earlier assertion that middle class families need to save money to send their kid to get a Master's degree to survive. Maybe this was only hyperbole, but it shows that even rich Chinese people are under tremendous social pressure.
Or the idea that to be middle class, your family should own two cars. This might be a necessity in the United States, where you simply, but cars certainly are NOT a necessity in urban China. They are a luxury and a status symbol.
Unfortunately, in Chinese society, people are convinced that they need these hollow signifiers of elite status in order to maintain their place in the social order. This is typical nouveau riche thinking. Once China is an incredibly wealthy nation rather than a nation with a few incredibly wealthy people, I expect understated austerity to make a comeback.
In general? No. There are rich people and poor people in any country, and the poor always outnumber the rich. If you're merely stating that the global distribution of wealth is unequal, then you win a cookie.
*golf claps*
No one said anything about what Chinese people should or should not have. What has been said is that if a person is spending a significant amount of their income on non-necessities, they are middle class. The cost of living is lower in China than in other countries, so the middle class income threshold is lower. That does not mean it is easier to be middle class in China.
But I do see an awful lot of people on the subway with expensive cell phones, mp3 players and tablet computers. In fact, I see more of them than I see of migrant workers dragging around huge nylon sacks of whatever-the-fuck. If there is such a thing as a middle class distinct from working class anywhere in the world, you would have to be completely fucking blind not to see it in China as well.
"I agree that the consumer industry dictates the desire of the mass, and the industry tries to find large markets, hence it is a matter of time before consumer industry will slowly make the west more like China"
Yeaaaah. The dreadful cultural imperialistic buggernaut that is consumerism is going to Orientalize the West instead of Westernizing the Orient. LOL WUT
You remind me of another troll who tried so very hard to convince people he was vaguely "European" and "not currently in Beijing".
someone just could neither understand nor sympathize with my eagerness of catching up the foot steps of fast developing China today. one or two years ago, all Chinese were dreaming of buying a house(apt), now because the policys just came out. Chinese are lending their money at a extremely high rate of interset through banks. there is no stable growing future can be seen for Chinese people no matter if u r poor or rich. 10000,000RMB will not 100% be enough when we get old and retired.
Catching up to what? Hong Kong and Taiwan? The cadres? The mass media illusion of what you think "average" westerners enjoy? The carrot on the stick? Your own tail?
The scenario you just described sounds an awful lot like the housing bubble that precipitated the financial crisis in the United States. Many people signed mortgages at high interest rates because they thought the value of their homes would increase at an even higher rate. They didn't, and they weren't able to keep up with their payments, and then the foreclosures came.
Do you really want to follow in the footsteps of those lazy Americans who default on their debts and consume more than what is sustainable?
At least those poor dumb Americans bought houses. Chinese people are taking out mortgages to buy apartments. At least you can live in a house for the rest of your life, so even if it's a poor investment financially speaking, it might still have some sentimental value. But in China, where houses are uncommon, and buildings are of low quality, property ownership just a shitty, stupid investment--unless you're buying them ten units at a time. Try blaming the foreigners for that!
Owning property just for the sake of owning property is meaningless in the land of 70-year leases.
there are bubbles eveywhere in China. 20% Chinese are super rich i never said following the foot step of the US is the way of creating a sustainable developing China. so does the CCP .
"i never said following the foot step of the US is the way of creating a sustainable developing China."
If you believe that home ownership is a necessity, even if it's impractical and unsustainable, then you are following in America's footsteps.
20% of Chinese are super rich? Not even 20% are middle class according to your warped standards.
你还是用英文吧。 看着没你这种文言文费劲啊!
I'm afraid there is not much other choices for most Chinese family.
I think most Chinese families are more aware of their options than you are.
nah , most Chinese families are worry abt their savings, financial control. retirement. how to live a independent elderly life in future.
That sounds like the Western notion of independent retirement. Most elderly Chinese people depend upon their children to take care of them. Where is your 孝? Why do you hate Chinese traditional culture so much? :D
This is unsustainable with the proportion of the population entering retirement swelling year-by-year, particularly since China lacks stable public welfare institutions.
But I don't think that enriching a tiny fraction of Chinese families to fulfill your twisted idea of what a middle class lifestyle ought to resemble is going to help matters for the remaining 99.99% of the population.
I think it would be better to tax the motherfucking shit out of anyone earning more than 10,000,000 per year. Unless, of course, you want China to resemble America, where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
Tangenital point, Dando mentioned "migrant workers dragging around huge nylon sacks of whatever-the-fuck."
I always wondered about these, does anyone know what-on-earth is inside them?
They can't always be carrying all their worldy belongings with them, surely.
Shirley, they don't rent moving vans when they migrate.
True, sometimes they don't seem to be migrating though; I thought they might serve some significance as arcane, metaphorical props. And don't call me Shirley.
They're full of Christmas presents, candy, hopes & dreams.
That sounds like the Western notion of independent retirement. Most elderly Chinese people depend upon their children to take care of them. Where is your 孝? Why do you hate Chinese traditional culture so much?
I dont hate Chinese traditional, u think u know something but actually u dont see anything at all. u will only end up insulting someone........
You omitted the emoticon denoting that statement as humorously hyperbolic and not entirely serious. That was a " :D ", kiddo. It would seem as though you need your perspective adjusted by about 90 degrees to the left.
(OH MY FUCK that was accidentally clever. "To the left!" Get it? HURRRRR... Too bad no one with a brain is still reading this shit!)
Regardless of what you've convinced yourself are your earnest and virtuous motivations, the fact remains that your lofty ideals are so out of touch with reality that you're an embarrassment to the humble austerity of Zhou Average.
I insult a few trolls on WLIB. You insult an entire nation.
u think Chinese will take u as a national hero for them? so rediculous~
Even if I fancied myself as a hero, I would be the Goddamned Batman. I really don't care how my words are received as long as I can draw a few more hilariously stupid comments out of your wretched mouth. It's more important to me to see a spoiled child brought low than for me to gain anything more than what I've already got: wine in my glass, weed in my pipe, and on increasingly rare occasions, women on my crotch. And I can guarantee, wasting my time ridiculing rich kids doesn't get me any closer to pussy. Oh well. 为人民服务!
But please. Say something to top your 10,000,000 RMB/year estimation of middle class minimum income, or "20% of Chinese people are super rich." What other statistical mysteries do you have in store for us?
10,000,000 RMB for retirement after u get 60 yo. imagine how many years can u ean 1000,000RMB per year? smoke weed too often is not cool at all. u r totally wasted. so i can guarentee that's why girls rarely on ur crotch, that's the truth from my "wretched" mouth. lol , i see u want to restart it again. come on ~ loser
Oops. I added a zero. That's easy to do when you're having arbitrary numbers thrown at you by someone who isn't careful about her comma placement. Boo-how-eee-suh.
You're still bonkers and you have no concept of money if you think it is realistic to keep 10,000,000 RMB in a mattress instead of investing it, like any 富二代 bourgeois capitalist pig would do.
And thanks for informing everyone of the awful consequences of regular cannabis use. Like all the videogame arcade cabinets said during the early 90's: FBI Warning! Winners don't use drugs!
u've been keeping denying the fact which is happening now in China. the whole discussion is not abt numbers , is abt a sensation of happiness. Which is that you dont need to feel in reality . Lucky u could get everything u want virtually when u r high on marijuana.
"100,000 yearly is definitely not middle classes in big cities!~ I would say for a family with 3-4people it should be at least 1 million yarly. 1000,000 RMB."
Hey, you left this somewhere near the top of the thread. I thought I'd bring it back to you. What were you saying, "is not abt numbers"? Were these numbers of yours merely metaphorical?
Are you a wizard?
well, numbers can mean something , dabating with people like u who cant tell the difference between the reality and virtual world. i guess there is no use to explain every details to u .
I invite you to take a scroll upstairs and take another headcount of the number of people who think your estimates are unreal.
I'm just the only one bored enough to continue upbraiding you for it.
then stop doing that , have a nice sleep . gud nite !
number can mean something number can mean nothing , it's subtle. better to keep it as a secret from u .
Thanks for the lesson in quantum mechanics.
i still strongly feel that 1000,000 RMB a year can get a certain amount of quality things that a Chinese middle class family would need, if there is Chinese mid class. so far from what i can imagine , think that's enough for them to feel happy . if they can earn that much abt 10 years or around. but who knows what will happen in the future, maybe its not enough to have 10,000,000 RMB when u r 60 yo. ready for ur retiring life.
usually if u work in the government , 300K-500K a year is only the money u can see , the hidden money is about the same amount. cos they get most of their personal spending wipped out by their company.
BTW, if one person can earn 300K -500K a year, then 1000,000 a year for a family is very possible.
if I can get a certain of huge money quickly , i will never be in the poorer circle anymore!~
glad to see this coming back . lol
Chinese middle class very poetic, between the earth and the heaven, one step forward to wear G-star and one step back to wear ¨addiddas¨
Just go to India, where there are largest middle class in this world and they have a very qualitu life with democracy and freedom, and it is very easy for Indian to find jobs in the west and occupy the west in the next 20 years.
" we prefer indian/pakistani for chinese."
Don't put Indian with pakistan, they are totally different, I have several pakistan friends and they told me lots of fun thing about Indians.
What you said is what I got about the racism and discrimination from the western people, so what you said confirmed what I said, it is a good thing to let more people know about this point.
" manners and english"
haha, mananers? How many Indian you know? maybe you are an Indian who like to lie and cheat, that is not only my impression about Indians, I have many different students from all over the world, most of know Indian after years of study, Indian are the most snaky and dirty people in this world. As for English, being slave and conlony for the west for hundreds of years, it is normal for Indian to speak good English, it is not a surprise.
As what you said about " empty vessel making too much noise", that's my impresion about Indian, what they know is to talk a lot, but never do anything practical, it is good for them to occupy the west and we can see the decline of west in the next 20 years.
By the way, more than one western friends told me they don't like Indian because of their behavior and they are their former slaves.
So you indian just be happy to be a second-class whites and always talk sour words about my country, who cares about you?
wow, are we discussing indian middle class now ? i know some white indians are pretty good. better education . better manners. but i know some indians in india. they all dont like Chinese in india. and india has a even worse government than China does. but SOEs in india are very proactive. they helped the country a lot and people there. india has very good policy of education. they took the different way from China. they are more spiritual people. instead of doing the economic, materialism reform and other forms of developing. they choose to increase the quality of their people by teaching them skills. so they can work over seas. leave india. i like bollywood dancing. and indian music. but i agree with some of what dudu said. indians like bragging more than Chinese. but indian do speak better engish in general than Chinese.


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Opposition Delays Onslaught As Talks With Coalition Break Down
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By Emil Danielyan, Ruzanna Khachatrian and Armen Zakarian in Strasbourg
The Armenian opposition on Tuesday postponed until next week its promised "decisive" offensive against President Robert Kocharian, saying it is giving the authorities the last chance to hold a referendum of confidence in him.
Holding yet another rally in Yerevan, opposition leaders also attributed the move to the decision by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) to discuss the political situation in Armenia on Wednesday. Earlier in the day they called a halt to their talks with the governing coalition which were aimed at finding a compromise solution to the crisis.
"We are showing the good will and giving the authorities seven days' time. If they don't respond accordingly, they will get a powerful blow on April 4," Aram Sarkisian of the Artarutyun (Justice) alliance told several thousand people in the city's Freedom Square.
The rally proceeded peacefully and ended without a march towards Kocharian's heavily guarded residence which was implicitly promised by the opposition leaders last week. The planned PACE debate, welcomed by the opposition, seems to have played a major role in the delay. Two prominent opposition figures, including Artashes Geghamian of the National Unity Party (AMK), are currently in Strasbourg, seeking the organization's support for the two-month campaign for regime change in Armenia.
Artarutyun's top leader, Stepan Demirchian, was anxious to boost his supporters' morale, assuring them that the opposition remains determined to "form a legitimate government" in the country. "I do understand that many of you are impatient and want to see regime change as soon as possible," he said. "But rest assured that we will win."
The de facto opposition ultimatum contains ten demands, including the referendum of confidence, an end to the government crackdown and the release of all "political prisoners." They were presented to leaders of the three pro-Kocharian parties making up Armenia's coalition cabinet late on Monday. The talks resumed Tuesday only to end in half an hour. Opposition representatives said they are freezing the "political consultations" because the authorities have already rejected two of their demands by again blocking all roads leading to Yerevan and passing a controversial law on rallies.
"We demand that the National Assembly take appropriate steps to address our demands. After that we will be prepared to take part in political consultations," one of them, Victor Dallakian, said.
But parliament speaker Artur Baghdasarian claimed that the talks were suspended by the two sides "so that the [coalition] parties can discuss the submitted proposals." He also complained that he lacks the powers to make sure that Armenians' constitutionally guaranteed freedom of movement inside their country is respected.
The authorities have routinely blocked transport communication between Yerevan and the rest of the countries to prevent provincial residents from attending the street protests held in the capital this month. Opposition sources claimed that Tuesday's transport blockade was the worst to date.
The Armenian parliament, in which the governing Dashnaktsutyun, Orinats Yerkir and Republican parties hold a majority, approved the law on rallies in the second reading despite strong objections voiced by experts from the Council of Europe and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. In an interim report, the Council's legislative watchdog, the Venice Commission, concluded that the legislation runs counter to the European Convention on Human Rights of which Armenia is a signatory.
The main author of the law, Justice Minister David Harutiunian, dismissed the criticism, denying that it restricts freedom of assembly guaranteed by the Armenian constitution. The lawmakers are expected to pass it in the third, final reading on Wednesday.
Dallakian argued that Harutiunian could have easily delayed the vote pending the negotiations with the opposition. "The coalition can not or does not want to affect his actions. Either way we have a fait accompli," he said.
In Strasbourg, meanwhile, a PACE commission monitoring Armenia's compliance with its membership obligations discussed a statement which will be put before the 45-nation assembly for debate on Wednesday. Geghamian and his Armenian colleagues representing both the opposition and the pro-Kocharian camp attended the meeting, seeking to have their views reflected in the document.
The text of the draft statement was due to be made public later on Tuesday. According to Shavarsh Kocharian, the second opposition member of the PACE, it will likely warn that the Armenian authorities will face political sanctions if they don't stop arresting opposition activists and blocking the roads.
One of the detained oppositionists, Armenian-born U.S. citizen Artur Vartanian, was effectively deported from Armenia early in the morning. Vartanian, who was a top bodyguard of Demirchian, was put on a plane at the Yerevan airport just one day after being put under two-month arrest on for "actively participating" in the opposition drive to force Kocharian from power. Prosecutors dropped the charges against him, citing "a change of the situation."
Vartanian received U.S. citizenship in 2002. Officials said Kocharian formally stripped him of his Armenian citizenship immediately after he was taken into custody on Friday. The Armenian constitution bans dual citizenship.
(RFE/RL photo)
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The movie 'Biteka Pal' has gained traction by the mouth publicity of the viewers. The viewers of the movie have appreciated the story, acting and the presentation. Keki Adhikari's acting is told to be the best parts of the movie.
Although the viewers turnover on Friday was not that impressive, the viewers on Saturday increased in dramatic way. The movie is running in 35 theaters all over Nepal.
Similarly other movies released this Friday – '6 Ekan 6' and 'Parai' are also doing good business.
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GraphicRiver Bird of Love 7 4404577
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GraphicRiver Bird of Love 7 4404577
Stock Vector \ Characters \ Animals
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Stock Vector - Bird of Love 7 4404577 by aleksandr-mansurov-ru @ GraphicRiver
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Democrazy is our LomoHome of the Day!2013-12-21 2 Share Tweet
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Taipei-based Lomographer *democrazy* has actually been a recipient of the Home of the Day award previously. From self-portraits to landscapes and other random shots from her trips, democrazy has uploaded more than 700 photos in her LomoHome.
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