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Dear Boonton Landlord / Property Owner:
During my first year as Mayor, we began tracking code violations as they relate to rental properties and found that large numbers of violations were caused by well-intended renters who simply didn't know town rules. This was especially the case around recycling and waste / bulky item disposal.
To help prevent this from happening and help you educate your tenants BEFORE violations occur, we created the first edition of a Boonton Renter's Guide (download below) I hope you will make copies and share this document with your current and future tenants. You may also download and print copies by CLICKING HERE. As well, I hope you are sharing my quarterly newsletter that comes with the water bill sent to you quarterly.
If you have suggestions about what else should appear in the Renter's Guide or would like to get extra copies of my newsletter for your tenants, please do not hesitate to call me at 973-402-9410 x 622 or e-mail me at email@example.com.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation and help.
Sincerely yours,
Matthew DiLauri
Town of Boonton
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The Instigator
Pro (for)
0 Points
The Contender
Con (against)
3 Points
The ends justify the means
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
|Voting Style:
|Point System:
|7 Point
|4 years ago
|Post Voting Period
|30,208 times
|Debate No:
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (43)
Votes (1)
In this debate, I will be arguing that the ends justify the means while my opponent will be arguing that the ends don't necessarily justify the means.
Definition of 'The ends justify the means' : "A good outcome excuses wrongs committed to attain it."
In this debate, nihilism (or apathetic views toward morality) may not be used as a talking point agaisnt or for the resolution.
Important : Voters will ignore all other categories other than ' made more convincing arguments,' when voting. It is the responsibility of voters to counter any votes for other categories with a vote for the other party in the same category It is also the responsibility of the voter to comment that they have done so.
This opening round is for definitions and acceptance only. I will give the Pro case at the start of the second round.
Standard debate conventions apply. I list them here for the benefit of new debaters and readers. I believe there is nothing tricky or eccentric. Both sides agree to the following rules, and that violating the rules is a conduct violation, with anything contrary to the rules to be ignored by readers judging the debate:
DR 1. All arguments must be made in the debate. Evidence may be cited or linked from the debate, but only in support of arguments made in the debate. Arguments made in Comments are to be ignored.
DR 2. Source links or references must be included within the 8000 characters per round limit of the debate. No links or sources are permitted in comments.
DR 3 Any term not specifically defined before use is to be taken with the ordinary dictionary definition of the term that best fits the context of the debate.
DR 4. No new arguments shall be made in Round 4. Pro may rebut previous arguments using new evidence solely for that purpose, but no new arguments are allowed. Con may not present any new evidence in R4.
DR 5. DDO site rules always apply. Neither side may add or modify rules for the debate once the challenge is accepted.
By responding to this proposal you accept this debate. By accepting this debate, you accept all terms provided. Failing to comply with the above rules means a loss for the offender.
I look forward to an interesting debate!
I thank my opponent for accepting this debate.
Among the most important things humanity faces is the philosophy of ethics. What should we do? Why should we do it? The answer to these questions is cardinal to the development of humanity. Morality is a complex issue, and sometimes it's not necessarily clear if there are even definite answers to these questions.
When one sets out to determine if something is moral or not, one must first conclude what should be included for analysis. For instance, most people would agree that pushing a random person off a cliff would be an immoral act. However, it is only immoral if one looks at the results of that push, not the push itself. Thus, when one determines if an act is immoral or not, it is necessary to look at the full ramifications of an action rather than the intrinsic action itself. I argue that the ends to an action justify the means, because the morality of an action lies in the ramifications. If the 'means' produce lasting negative effects that outweigh the 'good' of the ends, then the 'means' to that situation become the ends. One has to remember that the 'ends' of a situation include the 'means,' so if the 'end' of a situation is morally preferable to the alternative of the action not happening, it is apparent that the action is moral and justified.
I pass the debate to Con.
Before going into what I believe are the flaws in the theory Pro proposes, it is useful to review what a more classical approach to the problem of morality says on the matter.
Moral Framework
Intrinsic and Extrinsic Evils
There are certain actions, such as rape, murder or slander that are everywhere and always wrong, not because of they are ordered to, but because the act itself is intrinsically evil. These violate respectively a person's sexual integrity, life and honor, each one of these Goods valued as such due to a consideration of human dignity, the basis on which morality itself is based. Whether you base this human dignity on the fact that mankind are made in the image and likeness of God or, as secular humanism does, on the extraordinary quality of mankind as a rational being this is such a primary consideration that to violate this principle in whatever degree cannot be justified by a given circumstance.
Other things are not intrinsic evils, but are configured as just or unjust by outside factors, extrinsically. This is where the aforementioned framework steps in. To push someone is not in and of itself evil. You may push someone out of anger in order to intimidate them or you may push them playfully in order to show trust and affection. Even pushing someone off a cliff can be a morally neutral act, depending if your intent is to kill the person or force them to defeat their fears and finally experience the thrill of bungee-jumping. In this case you can say, in a sense, that the intention, or end, justifies the object, or means. It gives positive or negative moral character to a neutral proposition, but it cannot make a direct violation of the fundamental moral principles, intrinsic evils, good.
Even in the former case -- in which we discount intrinsic evils -- to say that it is the intention which makes the action good or bad would be a reductionist view. The nature of good is perfection, and the nature of evil is to be flawed. For an act to be good, both the object and the intention must be morally acceptable. A morally acceptable, or even a morally good object, such as doing volunteer work, may be done for morally unacceptable (for vainglory) or even evil reasons (to fend off suspicion of criminal activity and elude justice). In the same way, a morally good intention (defending the environment) does not constitute a morally positive action if the means are intrinsic evils (murdering the owner of a coal mine).
The problem comes, in many people's minds, when the good that is intended is comparable in importance or even apparently greater than the evil that is to be done. The circumstance is sometimes mentioned by moral philosophers or psychologists in which a large boulder is rolling down towards a group of 15 hikers who would surely die if you do not shove a rather fat man between them (large enough to stop the boulder) therefore killing him. Surely, they say, the life of the one is worth sacrificing for the good of the many. In violating that primary moral principle (the inviolability of innocent human life) in directly participating in the murder of the large man, one has so thoroughly betrayed the very source of the goodness of the intention that it brings into question the integrity of the act itself. While the fact of the death of 15 people is doubtless tragic, we cannot do evil that good may come of it.
Flaws in Pro's position
The definitions in my opponent's line of thinking constitute a form of equivocation. Pro argues that "If the 'means' produce lasting negative effects that outweigh the 'good' of the ends, then the 'means' to that situation become the ends". In saying this, Pro seems to define, rather arbitrarily, the terms to mean something completely different to their common understanding. To Pro, the 'means' are any morally neutral methods to accomplish something whereas 'ends' are both the intention behind actions and the morally relevant methods used to accomplish those intentions. This equivocation empties the original phrase of all meaning as it could be rendered as "The morally relevant component of actions justify the morally irrelevant ones". This is clearly not what is originally meant by the adage. In addition to this, there seems to be some confusion to what the word "ends" is intended to mean. The "ends" in this context are to be taken to mean the outcome worked towards, the purpose. This is not the same thing as result. We cannot know the result, nor can we make moral judgements based on them, we can, however, consider the worthiness of a purpose or objective. More on that later.
This is also a reductionist view of a matter which Pro himself admits is rather complex. It ignores components of the action which can clearly be differentiated and weighed separately.
It is a position which lends itself to subjectivism. For instance, getting a degree is a morally worthy intention, or end. Two different people may choose different means to attain this end. One may choose to study hard and the other may choose to cheat off the one who studies. The person making the choice may say that, in judging the relative moral weight of the means and ends, and thinking of the ramifications this could lead to, he has decided that all in all the result of him passing is morally preferable to the result of not passing. This, then, would constitute a moral act for that person. Some may argue that this is not the case, as the end result is that an unqualified person is given the same degree as a hard-working and qualified one, however, the fact is that the position can lend itself to far too much interpretation and rationalization ("I am just not good at tests, but I know my stuff and would be a marvelous doctor" OR "Who cares? A degree in law is just a prerequisite to get into my uncle's company, I'm never actually going to need to use this" etc). A moral framework that does not serve to guide moral decision-making is simply not useful.
The full ramifications cannot be the source of the moral character of a situation. It is simply unreasonable to believe that a person can truly know the full ramifications of his actions. Pro mentions elsewhere that he states his belief that the premise assumes that the person must know that the results would be "net-positive". This is, however, assuming too much. It would essentially make this an empty theoretical discussion of the morality of omniscient beings. We cannot ever know the full ramifications of our actions because we are not omniscient. We do not know the location and trajectory of every atom in the universe, we do not know whether the rain will make it likely for a person to slip and break his neck when we playfully push them away, we do not know how others will react to something we say. We can only judge our actions by what is presently true: by the action we will make and by the objective it aims towards. Never by the results which have not (and may never be) achieved.
I thank my opponent for his thorough response.
The moral framework my opponent is suggesting leads to pain and suffering at the hand of an ethics that claims, in effect, actions cannot be judged for the results they produce nor the intentions behind them. This philosophy greatly limits the extent of which we as a society can curtail suffering, because it limits the actions we can take to curtail. If an action's morality is defined only by its intrinsic nature, and not by the ramifications nor the intention, any 'good' that is only possible via an intrinsically 'immoral' action will only be possible if the society either drops this limiting philosophy of intrinsic moral analysis, or is forced to change its morals to make the action moral, in which case neither the intention nor the results apply to this action which is now intrinsically 'good,' (which is actually an immoral action if taken intrinsically)
When one considers if 'The end justifies the means,' one must realize that this statement is not nor does it claim to be a normative ethical system itself. It cannot be, for it does not define what a 'good end' is nor if the means to achieve it 'outweigh' the end. This statement is merely an extension of preexistent morals, further extending the reach of these morals and the extent to which they can be achieved. If society defines human life as something to be protected, and places a higher value on it than the life of a tree, then it follows that even if this society places a tree as a value, it would be moral for one to cut down trees to make a log cabin to survive harsh winter. Thus, the ends (human life) justify the means (the death of a tree).
Examples of society justifying the means with the ends is all around us-- and for good reason. I wouldn't live in -- nor would I wish upon my worst enemy-- a society in which no 'good' can be justified with any amount of 'bad.' This society would go extinct with this limited morality. In a society such as the one mentioned, punishment (prison) would be illegal for it is immoral to lock up a human being against his or her will. It's easy to see that this is absurd, for the criminal broke the law and the public needs to be protected from further crimes, but that is what the results of denying the simple fact that the ends do justify the means causes.
1) "One may choose to study hard and the other may choose to cheat off the one who studies. The person making the choice may say that, in judging the relative moral weight of the means and ends, and thinking of the ramifications this could lead to, he has decided that all in all the result of him passing is morally preferable to the result of not passing."
Cheating for personal gain is already considered an intrinsically immoral act in society. So in this case, 'The ends would not justify the means' for the ends are immoral. 'The ends justify the means' is not necessarily a subjective morality. It is only subjective if the morality of a society already is subjective. Murder in our society is considered immoral, even if it benefits someone, so to say 'The ends justify the means' would claim murder was moral if the person doing the murder knows he or she will benefit is just false. The 'Ends' of a situation is the analysis of the morality of a situation according to the morality of the society.
2) " It is simply unreasonable to believe that a person can truly know the full ramifications of his actions. "
'The ends justify the means' morality does not claim people should act according to arbitrary whim. If you saw an infant being attacked by a dog, would you kill the dog if you had to if you wanted to save the infant? What if by doing so the owner of the dog committed suicide because the dog was all they had? You couldn't have foreseen that, and you were rationally justified to act, so would you be considered immoral? 'The ends justify the means' is simply a moral ethic that says 'The most possible good is good.' Striving for the most possible good (The ends justify the means) is more moral than the illogical notion that any 'bad' actions cannot be justified by any results.
3) " The circumstance is sometimes mentioned by moral philosophers or psychologists in which a large boulder is rolling down towards a group of 15 hikers who would surely die if you do not shove a rather fat man between them (large enough to stop the boulder) therefore killing him. Surely, they say, the life of the one is worth sacrificing for the good of the many. In violating that primary moral principle (the inviolability of innocent human life) in directly participating in the murder of the large man, one has so thoroughly betrayed the very source of the goodness of the intention that it brings into question the integrity of the act itself. While the fact of the death of 15 people is doubtless tragic, we cannot do evil that good may come of it."
This notion is nonsense.
No one in the history of the World has presented a valid reason why pushing the fat man in that scenario is immoral. 'It is immoral because murder is wrong,' they say. If life is defined as a value (we shouldn't kill the fat man), then saving more of it (15) is more of a value (1). Following your logic, we should let the a billion humans die if it was necessary to murder someone, for it would be immoral to do so. Is that morality useful? For whom? This scenario only stresses the point and makes it very obvious, but it's no different than any other. Any time we pass up good for a lesser good in the name of being good, I consider that evil proportional to the amount the latter is less than the former.
4) " In the same way, a morally good intention (defending the environment) does not constitute a morally positive action if the means are intrinsic evils (murdering the owner of a coal mine). "
'The ends justify the means' is not a equivalent to 'Do what you want as long as you believe it's good,' for it is immoral of people to assume they are completely rational. One should not assume because they believe an end is moral that it truly is moral any more than people, under my opponent's philosophy should assume so. For instance, would it be moral of someone to get high on meth and kill someone, claiming they thought they were rational and justified, and that the other person was attacking them? However, if the person in your scenario for some reason knew the 'ends' of killing owner outweighed the costs (means) of his deaths, why shouldn't she kill him? Why would that be immoral if it produced results which were morally preferable to the alternative and was done so in good conscience.
In conclusion, morality must be defined as what is the most moral -- morals being defined as what individuals rationally consider to be moral (excluding the morality of intrinsic morality (this debate)) . If we are limited by defining an action's morality in a vacuum -- we are left with exactly that: a morality designed for a vacuum. A morality useless for this World. A morality that is objectively immoral.
I'm afraid my opponent seems to entirely miss the point, which makes his objections rather ineffective. We should try to clear up the confusion. To do so I will address the points he brings up and point out the key issue he has neglected to address.
Rebuttals to Assertions
1. Pro characterizes my position incorrectly as that "morality is only defined by its intrinsic nature" or that "actions cannot be judged for the (...) intentions behind them". I mentioned in my argument that both the object and the intention must be morally acceptable in order for the action as a whole to be deemed good. This is not an "either or", but a "both and" proposition.
2. Pro also says that given my view certain goods would only be achievable if a society "[changes] its morals (...) to make the action moral" thereby changing an intrinsic evil to an intrinsic good. This is patent nonsense. If something is intrinsically good or intrinsically evil it depends on nothing outside of itself (much less public opinion) for this to be true. If a society ignores morality and cries out "evil be thou my good" it does not make it so, it simply makes that society an immoral one.
3. Pro then goes on to make a rather odd remark about the cutting down of trees. This seems to reaffirm my conclusion that the differentiation between intrinsically evil and morally neutral or positive means was simply not registered. Cutting down a tree is not an intrinsic evil. We recognize the beauty of nature, and have a certain degree of responsibility to be good stewards of nature, but a tree is not a moral agent, and cutting down a tree is not intrinsically evil whereas cutting down a tree for the pure pleasure of destruction or out of envy for a neighbor's orchard would be. This is because while the object is neutral the intention is negative. This falls completely in line with the framework I set forward and I thank my opponent for the example.
4. Pro makes the rather bizarre claim that under the framework I propose we would not be able to send criminals to prison, as he decides to call imprisonment an intrinsic moral evil. Unjust imprisonment (taking freedom away from the innocent) certainly is, however imprisonment itself is not. Imprisonment of criminals is comparable to holding back the fist of an aggressor so he may not strike his victim or sending a child to his room to "think about what he has done". For it to be just it must seek 1. the safety of society and 2. the rehabilitation of the delinquent. The fact that a situation causes discomfort does not make it an intrinsic evil.
Rebuttals to Rebuttals
1. Cheating. Pro claims that, as society deems cheating an intrinsically immoral act, this means that the ends are immoral. This once again confuses the ends (whether considered as the intention or, more erroneously, as the result) and means (the object, the act itself). The act is cheating, the intention is to get the degree. Getting a degree (the ends) is a good thing. The means, however, are problematic. The fact that they are problematic do not automatically make them ends, there is simply no justification for this misuse of the terms.
2. Result-based morality. The dog example shows precisely what I am getting at. You cannot know the man is going to commit suicide due to the loss of his dog (result). You can only know your intention (to save the child) and the means used to seek that end (killing the dog). To say the result is what gives an action moral character is, therefore, a patent falsehood.
3. Killing the obese. There are certain moral goods the value of which are qualitative and not quantitative. Food is good because it feeds people, so more food is better, because it serves its purpose better. People, however, are not means but ends in themselves, and have infinite human dignity. We cannot quantify the value of people. If the choice were between saving one and saving 15, saving 15 would be the greater good. The choice however is between murdering one and saving 15 and the tragic death of 15 people. The murder itself would be an affront to the dignity of the 15 who were saved and would undermine the very foundations of any moral philosophy worth the name.
4. (I believe the issues here have already been addressed)
Rebuttal to Conclusion
"Mmorality must be defined as what is the most moral -- morals being defined as what individuals rationally consider to be moral" This definition is utterly meaningless. I could just as easily say "pickle must be defined as what is the most pickle, pickle being defined as what individuals rationally consider to be pickle". The core argument, however, is that morality must not limit reasonable people. In fact, Pro's main complaint about the moral framework set forth in my first intervention is the fact that it is limiting; but that is the roll of morality. Chesterton famously said that morality, like art, consists of drawing a line somewhere. This line may go against conventional wisdom, it may go against what is desirable at a certain moment. The problem is, though, that if we redefine principle to whatever is convenient in a certain situation, we really have little use for principle in the first place. If Pro considers my morality objectively immoral, I must say the one defended here is no morality at all.
Dropped Argument
There is a key issue which has been omitted in this round of debate: the problem of definitions. It is vitally important, as we must be speaking in the same language in order to communicate effectively. Pro has been using equivocal definitions of both "ends" and "means". He alternatively claims certain means are ends (when these are immoral) and certain ends are results (when it is more useful in building a utilitarian defense). This is not the commonly accepted use of these terms as found in the phrase "the ends justify the means" (the actual adage is the ends don't justify the means, of course, but in defying conventional moral wisdom he is making reference to it). If he is not able to differentiate between the intention and the act or omission by which this intention is to be achieved, it will be difficult for him to make a strong case in favor of this resolution.
As per his rules, he is not allowed to play semantics on this one, as he already defined the phrase as "a good outcome excusing wrongs committed to attain it". He cannot now claim that wrongs committed to attain the outcome are actually ends. Nor can he change the definitions now as per his own debate rule 3.
I hope that, in the following and final intervention Pro will be able to offer an explanation to clarify this equivocal use of the key terms of the debate. Otherwise we will be forced to consider his position to be based on either sophistry or a lack of comprehension of the issues at play.
I thank my opponent for his well-developed response. The resolution still stands, and I will set out to prove that in this round. This round is going to be a self-contained argument.
To adequately prove that 'The ends justify the means,' I must first dispel an unjustified misconception about what this phrase entails. As defined in the opening round, 'The ends justify the means' : "A good outcome excuses wrongs committed to attain it.'
The 'outcome' of an action i.e, the thing that is supposed to excuse the means in the resolution, includes the means to get there when it is defined as 'good'. This necessarily means if an action's results are morally preferable to the alternative, it can be deduced that the end must be so morally preferable that the 'immoral' actions of the means are excused if it is to be defined as 'good,' if 'good' is referring to the end result. 'The ends justify the means,' would not condone, for instance, someone driving someone with a gunshot wound to the hopital slightly more quickly if it meant on the way that they ran down and killed twenty pedestrians; for the 'means' ended up being the ends i.e., the consequence and outcome.
Now that I have shown that the 'ends' of an action's morality are a package deal, -- including all consequences of the action-- I will move on to address the more immediate issue.
The moral ethics of my opponent is illogical, unjustified, and most importantly mystical i.e., beyond human reason and understanding. If murder is to be defined as something that is intrinsically evil, one must ask himself, why. Why are any actions deemed as moral or immoral without reason and inquiry. According to my morality (including the resolution), murder without reason is defined as evil for the ramifications and intentions behind the action (loss of human life and evil intentions, respectively). An action cannot be defined as immoral if the action does not have immoral intentions (Necessarily meaning the offender is a human or intelligent being) and that the ramifications are evil and immoral. For instance, it wouldn't be immoral if an asteroid wiped out the human race without notice (for a rock cannot be deemed as immoral), and it wouldn't be immoral to 'kill' someone if it meant they'd respawn within a second, untouched, and the 'murderer' knew these results ahead of time (if you think this is still wrong, ask yourself why. If it's because you think murder is wrong, ask yourself why) . Murder is defined as immoral in human society because of the consequences, but I argue once those consequences are nonexistent, murder cannot be reasonably qualified as immoral. How could it? According to whom? And most importantly, the question that has rendered illegitimate philosophies through the ages illegitimate: why?
You might be asking yourself, "How does this relate to the resolution."
The answer to that question lies in the morality of ramifications.
As I have already addressed, murder is only immoral for the immoral results and immoral intentions. If the latter is nonexistent, it wouldn't be murder by definition. And if the former is non existent, why is it immoral? Let me provide a more concrete example : according to my opponent's philosophy, it would be immoral to kill someone if it was necessary to save one hundred others even if you knew they'd be saved (also let's assume not acting would result in everyone, including the lone person, perishing). If an action's morality is defined by its ramifications and intentions, killing one to save a hundred is obviously justified (according to those parameters of morality). According to my opponent's morality, however, it wouldn't be moral, and therefore, by definition, one should not kill the lone person to save the hundred. This is a mystical notion -- to assume it is immoral to ever kill anyone --because it doesn't really have an answer as to why. If it is immoral to kill someone because human life is a value, it would, assuming the correct philosophy is being utilized, be moral to act in the way that preserves the most human life. How can morality be intrinsic without concern for the results? How is this justified? With what logic is this concluded? The answer to these questions are: it's not, it's isn't, none. Everywhere one looks, moral and immoral actions are defined as such as if the results (ramifications), are the sole thing being considered. Just because action's and their corresponding moralities have become woven into our cultures is not to say that they are intrinsically moral or immoral, without regard to consequences. For I argue, the consequences are the fountainhead for an action's morality, and to argue otherwise lacks appropriate justification.
Along with my opponent's philosophy being mystical, it is also arbitrary; defining actions as immoral for simply the sake of the action. Let's go back to my example of the 'saving one vs hundred.' Let's change the rules a bit, and assume that you don't have to actually kill the lone person to save the hundred. Rather, you must choose one group to save, and by doing so, the other group will be killed in the same manner as you would have had to in the original scenario. If you do not choose a group to save, both groups will die. My opponent's philosophy here breaks down into an arbitrary mess that does not correspond to reality. I would expect my opponent to claim that it is now not immoral to save the hundred, for you are not the one doing the killing. If he claims that this is still immoral (he might), he must answer as to why. I have my reasons (human life is valuable), he better have his. But wait, didn't we already conclude that an action's morality rests in its ramifications? Choosing to kill the lone person in both scenarios produce exactly the same results i.e. one person dead, and intentions are the same i.e., trying to preserve human life. Why would my opponent claim that one scenario is different than the other in terms of morality? By what right? By what logic?
Denying the fact that the 'Ends justify the means,' is to deny the morals of saving someone's life should they need an amputation, and you have no medical supplies save a carving knife. If inflicting pain on another is an intrinsically immoral act (is torture okay if we don't care about consequences, as you have demonstrated) , then according to the philosophy 'the ends do not justify the means,' it would be immoral to help. If my opponent claims that it would be moral to help, he will be in effect arguing for the resolution.
In conclusion, the ends justify the means because it is an extension of morality, an advanced philosophy, that looks into the future, not at mystical intrinsics nor the arbitrary. If the ends justifiy the means...ever, then they always will if the ends truly are morally preferable to the alternative. The ends justify the means is the correct philosophy to live by. You claim it's not? Why not?
It is too bad Pro has not condescended to addressing the apparent contradictions in his definition of "the ends justify the means" and his defense of it. I cannot use new arguments in this round, but in neglecting to address my previous statements, Pro makes it unnecessary to do anything more than to point to what I have already said and devellop it.
First, he says a good outcome, or a good result, excuse wrongs committed to attain it. He has already all but acknowledged that it is not possible for s person to know the full ramifications of an action before they occur (as in his killing a dog to defend a toddler example, in which the owner of the dog commits suicide), therefore it is not so much the consequences which are morally relevant, but the intention and foreseen consequences.
Then, Pro tries to sell us a "package deal" which renders the adage meaningless. If the ends include the means, then whenever we consider that a means of attaining a desirable result are so morally undesirable that they do not justify the action (as in the case of the person who cheats in order to get his degree) we can merely say that the end result (a cheater getting a degree) is the end. This does not describe the results excusing or not excusing the wrongs committed to attain it, but rather the consequences justifying the action in its entirety.
J' Accuse le Mystique!
All of this, (the equivocal use of terms and the fact that the explanation defends a completely different position from the one formally proposed and defined) by itself would be enough to negate the resolution, but I will further defend the alternative view I proposed in the previous rounds from the rather odd accusation of "mysticism".
I find nothing wrong with mysticism per se (whoever doesn't admire the poetry of the Spanish mystic saint Theresa of Avila either has not read it or lacks human emotion), I simply don't agree that this is descriptive of the position I set forth, much less as defined by Pro: "beyond human reason and understanding". It is, in fact, descriptive of what is the intuitive position for most.
Why is murder wrong?
I am rather surprised my opponent asks this question without so much as acknowledging the explanation set forth in the previous rounds, which makes my opponent's position something of a straw-man. Murder is wrong, not because of the action (stabbing a guy), and not because of the consequences (he's dead), those consequences are immoral because they go against a deeper principle, the dignity and infinite value of the human person. This principle may well have a mystical foundation, as that of the Judeo-Christian tradition to which I hold, which bases itself on the idea that we are all made in the image and likeness of Godf, or a secular one, secular humanism among other philosophies uses different justifications for this, but they all hold to the general principle. To attack this axiom of moral thought is an attack on all human beings, to degrade the basis of our value is to degrade us all. Principles are not distant ideas for philosophers and tea rooms, they are practical as potatoes. Without them we do start to run into trouble.
It is precisely this incapacity of grasping the general principle that leads Pro to the troublesome conclusion that to amputate a patient's leg or even to perform a surgery would involve committing intrinsically evil acts. I am rather surprised at his insistence because this is the same fallacious argument that was used when he claimed that under the view I proposed incarcerating someone would be immoral. Pain itself is not contrary to the dignity of a person. Pain and discomfort can be quite useful: it warns us when there is danger of further harm, in some circumstances it builds character when we learn to bear it, and in the case of operations and amputations, it can be necessary to grit our teeth and get through it in order to live another day. Torture, which inflicts pain either because the torturer takes a sadistic pleasure in causing it or to attain from the victim something he does not want to give (information or a confession, usually), is an attack on human dignity and therefore is an intrinsic evil.
Kill a man to save a hundred
Pro sets forth a scenario in which one must alternatively choose between saving one life or a hundred or kill one man to save a hundred. As, in his view, the result is the same, he postulates the moral character of these situations is identical. This is not so. Without going into the idea of mediate and immediate collaboration or formal and material cooperation to which I pointed in round 2, the principles at play are quite obviously different. In the first case inaction (which is itself a moral choice) would lead to the deaths of 101 people. In this case the object, or means, is opening a door (with the knowledge we will not be able to open the other) and the intention to save the lives of the 100 people in the room. The means are not contrary to human dignity in such a way as to render them intrinsically evil, and so it is a moral choice. In the second case the object is the murder of the single person (let us call him Fred, or Annie, or Mother) who is of infinite dignity and value who cannot be quantified. This attack on innocent life is so contrary the fundamental principle of human dignity as to render the act intrinsically evil. The intention is identical (to save the life of the others), the action cannot be considered to be on the same moral grounding as the other.
Let's leave the realm of the hypothetical and see where the difference between the morality of outcomes and, you know, actual morality becomes clear. In the 1940s, American researchers in Guatemala infected 1,300 prison inmates without their consent (and usually without their knowledge) with different venereal diseases, mostly syphilis in order to test the efficacy of penicillin. The results were inconclusive, but as we have seen, the researchers could not have known the end result, but only the potential for positive results. Their initial calculation of the ethical issues involved, from Pro's standpoint was impeccable. The end result would be as follows: somewhere over Guatemalan 1,000 inmates would contract syphilis, some would live what is expected in those who have these diseases and others may have their symptoms controlled or even be cured by the penicillin. In contrast millions of people all over the world would face better prospects when facing this disease, and the cure may even be found. Overall, more lives are affected positively by this experiment than negatively and this positive result excuses the wrong committed to attain it. The story broke in 2011 and caused moral outrage in the vast majority of the American population and all over the world. Not because they explicitly defend the moral framework I have set forth in this debate, but because it is simply what intuitive moral sense tells us. This investigation was so grave an attack on the dignity of the inmates whose rights were trampled on that it constituted an attack on all humanity, including those who stood to benefit from the findings of the investigation.
Pro purports that his is an advanced moral philosophy. I must say that I am not sure what it is advancing towards, but a philosophy that can be used to defend the atrocities that it does (the case of Guatemala, the atomic bomb in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and even the London Blitz or Stalin's purges, as long as we are able to sell the overall outcome as net-positive). Any attempt to build morality while ignoring moral principles as a basis for it are doomed to fall like any house with no firm foundations. Those "intrinsic" which he described as mystical and arbitrary are the firm ground which avoids making morality meaningless. They are a line I do not set. A line I must recognize and force myself to
43 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by TrasguTravieso 4 years ago
I do wish we had more than one vote, though.
My theory is that it conflicts with your Christian belief in some way.
Posted by TrasguTravieso 4 years ago
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Nur-Ab-Sal 4 years ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro mistakenly assumes that Con's entire basis for morality is some 'mystical' or 'arbitrary' foundation, whereas he explained multiple times that morality can stem from purely objective facts, such as the infinite value of human life. Pro's insistence that 'the ends justify the means' is the only non-arbitrary means by which we should judge moral actions is not even intelligible considering that Con put forward a well-argued case, even if Pro disagreed. Anyway, there's no way that Pro's moral theory was sound, and it seems, as Con pointed out, that the same 'arbitrariness' that he sees in Con's judgement of moral actions is applicable to Pro's judgement of moral consequences. Arguments to Con; consequentialism could not be more flawed.
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ABC News has learned that on Friday, President Obama will likely order the Department of Defense's Military Commission to withdraw charges against terrorist suspect Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri. The charges may later be reinstated in a military commission or pursued in a civilian court. Al-Nashiri will remain in custody.
The announcement will not be made until after President Obama meets with the families of victims of terrorist attacks on 9/11 and on the U.S.S. Cole, where he will assure them that this step is not being done to be lenient towards al-Nashiri. The move is being done to stop the continued prosecution of al-Nashiri in a court system that his administration may ultimately find illegitimate, not for any other reason, sources told ABC News.
President Obama has expressed concern about whether the military commissions set up by the Bush administration are the proper way to go forward in pursuing charges against the U.S. detainees, and on January 22 he asked all the judges supervising the trials of detainees for a continuance of 120 days, so a team of administration officials could review the best way forward.
In almost the cases, that continuance request was granted. But last week the judge supervising the al-Nashiri trial -- Army Col. James L. Pohl, the chief judge at the Guantanamo Bay war crimes court -- said he would not heed President Obama's request for a 120-day continuance, or delay, in prosecutions of terrorism suspects. Pohl called the president's request "not reasonable" and not "in the interests of justice."
The arraignment of al-Nashiri is scheduled for Monday, February 9.
Al-Nashiri has been identified as the former Persian Gulf Operations Chief for al Qaeda and the mastermind of the attack on the U.S.S. Cole. In March 2007 he testified in military court that he only confessed to certain crimes because he has been tortured for the previous five years.
Asked for reaction to the news, Commander Kirk Lippold (Ret.), former Commander aboard the U.S.S. Cole when it was bombed on October 12, 2000, told ABC News that "I am concerned about the President considering dropping the charges because it may be indicative that the president does not intend to follow the military commissions process which has undergone extensive legal and legislative review."
"For some reason the administration says what's been expressed through the legislature is not sufficient," Lippold said of the military commissions. "They need to allow the process to go forward."
The 26-year Navy veteran said he found the decision to close the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay "disappointing," but he seemed willing to hear the president out.
"I'm interested in hearing what his long-term plan is on how he's going to deal with the detainees because he hasn't articulated that," he said. "He may have a clear-cut path that may massage some of the concerns that I know many of the families have right now."
In a way, the President tied his administration's own hands, requiring his Secretary of Defense to drop the charges. The executive order President Obama signed on closing the Guantanamo Detention Facilities states that "all proceedings" in the US Military Commissions must be "halted":
"The Secretary of Defense shall immediately take steps sufficient to ensure that during the pendency of the Review described in section 4 of this order, no charges are sworn, or referred to a military commission under the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and the Rules for Military Commissions, and that all proceedings of such military commissions to which charges have been referred but in which no judgment has been rendered, and all proceedings pending in the United States Court of Military Commission Review, are halted."
It is possible that the President will allow the arraignment to continue, but to do so would be an apparent violation of his own executive order. As of Thursday evening the final decision has not yet been made.
Lippold, a Senior Military Fellow with Military Families United, served on the Joint Chiefs of Staff and crafted detainee policy in the initial stages of what the Pentagon called the Global War on Terror. He was invited to meet with the President along with the other families tomorrow.
"I'm looking forward to hearing what the president has to say tomorrow when he meets with the families of the U.S.S. Cole," Lippold said.
- jpt


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In my last column I made mention of how excited and enthusiastic I was about the movement to create energy from waste. I am still very enthused and optimistic that the adoption of waste to energy technology will continue and escalate.
One of things that has me excited is the fact that the California Department of Food and Agriculture, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California/Federal Dairy Digester Working Group last September announced a joint solicitation for dairy digester concept proposals. The fact that such a group even exists is a testament to the dairy digester concept.


text: The Garden Club will hold a regular business meeting from 4:00pm until around 5:30pm. At 6:00pm, Master Gardener, Ron Trexler, will present "Starting Plants from Seeds for the Summer Garden". This timely event for those planning their gardens for the year is free and open to the public. Event co-sponsored by the Hooksett Garden Club and Hooksett Public Library.


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9" high x 5.5" wide
The "ALL" sediment is on the shoulder, applied heavily so it would interact with the other glaze and flow -- beyond that I was not in control but I did write, "Mixed layers of space and time from north, south, east and west, ALL".
Interior glaze is celadon and exterior white matte -- both assembled from refined materials. Lid has blue seaglass in it.
If I were dead, I wouldn't mind having my remains in this -- especially if mixed with some of my ancestors.


text: Burgundy and Coral Watermarble Posted on October 12, 2013 by Lady Lacquer Polishes used Wet n' Wild Burgundy Frost & Blazed (this is a beautiful creme coral.) I love this combination. It looked like it need something more and I think this hand looks better and I add more rhinestones. Advertisements Share this:GoogleFacebookPinterestTumblrTwitterEmailPrintMoreLinkedInRedditPocketLike this:Like Loading... Related


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Right at Home
Bumbling Bees
This is summertime scene that can be found everywhere in the world where flowers bloom. These bees are busy collecting pollen needed for producing honey. This small clump of flowers in the flowerbed on the side of our house seemed to be a popular spot.
You can view a larger version of this photo by clicking on it.
Wild and Woolly
This is one hungry, little dust-mop! Look at how much of that leaf it's already consumed. It is a Milkweed Tussock Caterpillar.
When I took this picture, I didn't notice the interesting, synchronized curl to those orange and white tufts of hair. It just looked like your run-of-the-mill fuzzy caterpillar. Enlarging the image, often reveals surprising aspects of the insect world.
By the way, the head is that shiny black part on the edge of the leaf, mostly covered by hair. (He needs to trim his bangs.)
This was actually in a very difficult spot to photograph due to other vegetation being in the way. To try and get a better shot, I slowly, gently bent the leaf he was on. They must not have sticky feet because, at the slightest angel, it immediately slid off the leaf and into the dense weeds below…never to be seen again.
To really see the detail of this creature, click on the photo and a larger version will open in a new browser tab.
Garden Cafe
On a walk though the woods I came upon this crab spider enjoying his freshly caught lunch.
The crab spider will just sit still near the center of the flower, doing it's best to blend in. When an unsuspecting insect lands to gather pollen, the snatches it and lunch is served.
You can get even closer to the action by clicking on the photo. A larger version will open in a new browser tab.
Hummingbird Moth Caterpillar
This monster caterpillar was found decimating the primrose patch in our flowerbed. It is a Hummingbird Moth Caterpillar.
This bad boy, complete with dangerious looking spike on his tail, was about 4-inches long.
It took a bit of research online by my wife, Sara, to identify this particular species. The hummingbird moth is a large moth that is often mistaken for hummingbirds because they are about the same size and flit from flower to flower like hummingbirds.
To view a larger version of this image, click on the photo.
Technicolor Throne
This skipper moth was overlooking the splendor of his kingdom from the comfort of his technicolor throne, a purple cone flower.
This is a photo taken on our recent vacation. This image came from a flowerbed just outside the gift shop of the Topeka Zoo. While the rest of our party went to look through the shop, I stayed outside to snap more photos.
To view a larger version of the king on his throne, click on the image.
Damsel in Distress
When I walk through the woods with my camera, I walk slowly. I'm being careful to observe all that is around me – eyes attuned to the slightest movement or color or pattern or light that might make an interesting image. On such a walk, I noticed a small, white butterfly moving though the weeds along the path. I decided to try a take a photo of it when it finally found a place to land.
I watched as it fluttered a bit from spot to spot. At one point it was fluttering under a large leaf. With my camera ready, I waited for it to emerge. Despite it's continued fluttering, it wouldn't come out in the open. Tired of waiting, I stooped down to get a better look and discovered why it wasn't flying out into the open.
A spider had snatched it. It wasn't caught in a web. This spider, hiding on the underside of this leaf, grabbed it as it fluttered by.
This is a close-up view of some tiny critters. Both of them together would not be much bigger than my thumbnail.
To view a larger version of this image, click on the photo.
Tiny Surprise
Danger lurks here! When I took this photo on a walk through the woods, I saw only a nice collection of wild violets. It wasn't until I viewed this image on my computer that I noticed the tiny crab spider hiding in the bloom on the left.
Crab spiders don't make webs. They hide, often in flowers, waiting for unsuspecting insects to be drawn by the flower's nectar or pollen.
I've posted photos of crab spiders before – even with a short video of one trying grab lunch – that can be viewed HERE.
To view a larger image of this photo, click on it.
Buzz By Here – To Infinity and Beyond!
This portly bumble bee looks as though he's heading off past the flowers, into infinity, intent on some important bee mission. No doubt, for his honey. (You've got to award style points for that perfect form.)
If you have a decent sized monitor, you can get a better view of Buzz by clicking on the photo.
Pick Your Poison
On a cool fall day, I uncovered my barbecue grill and found a large spider clinging to the grill cover. The moment I spotted it, I ran into the house…to grab my camera, of course. As I was taking photos of the spider, a wasp buzzed into the shot. (An insect photo bomb!)
I took several shots of the pair before the winged one flew off. While together, they seemed to get along just fine; no signs of tension or animosity.
I'm not sure I've ever photographed a more unlikely pair…a more menacing pair…a more dangerous duo.
No insects, arachnids or photographers were injured or harmed in the production of this image.
To get view an even larger version, click on the photo.


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The City & The City (Random House Reader's Circle) Paperback – April 27, 2010
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From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review. Better known for New Weird fantasies (Perdido Street Station, etc.), bestseller Miéville offers an outstanding take on police procedurals with this barely speculative novel. Twin southern European cities Beszel and Ul Qoma coexist in the same physical location, separated by their citizens' determination to see only one city at a time. Inspector Tyador Borlú of the Extreme Crime Squad roams through the intertwined but separate cultures as he investigates the murder of Mahalia Geary, who believed that a third city, Orciny, hides in the blind spots between Beszel and Ul Qoma. As Mahalia's friends disappear and revolution brews, Tyador is forced to consider the idea that someone in unseen Orciny is manipulating the other cities. Through this exaggerated metaphor of segregation, Miéville skillfully examines the illusions people embrace to preserve their preferred social realities. (June)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.
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To start, this book is BONKERS. But in the best way possible. Admittedly, I found the beginning to be tough to get through simply because Mieville's writing is something I wasn't used to reading; at times it feels very sporadic and seems to "jump around" a lot without much exposition, but after a while I realized that I actually enjoy it that way, things seem more "fast-paced" which fits well with the story itself. It gets really interesting once he starts to describe "Breach" and the way the characters "unsee" the neighboring city. [MILD SPOILER] these details don't get "explained" until some chapters into the book, but I felt that this helped set the tone earlier on by making the character's actions that more intriguing; I kept reading because I wanted to better understand their strange behaviors and "see" the picture that Mieville was creating.
I love the concept (I haven't seen or read other stories like it), and the characters are believable and entertaining. If anyone has other suggestions for books like this please let me know, but in the meantime I would recommend this to anyone interested in more speculative fiction.
This is not as filled with wonders as Perdido St. Station or the Iron Council and the language and imagery is terse by comparison. But as I reflect upon the fundamental message of unseeing in a dense, diverse city, this work gets kudos for opening the eyes. When we walking in a city we know, or one we hardly know there places and especially people we unsee perhaps unconsciously as much as we focus on what we do see. This is also true of amusement parks, where we unsee those that keep it clean and running.
The book's all about building a believable alternate world, and this it does brilliantly.
Apologies if I'm gushing (sure, all the cool kids already knew China Mieville was great...) so in the interests of finding some false balance, let me find a few faults. Tough, but if it were me, I'd have pushed the inspector's relationship with his female constable to see where that might go, and I'da thrown in a bit more humour, but hey, I'm just looking for nits to pick. This is great stuff. Loved it.


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Northwestern University to offer Coursera MOOCs
Northwestern University is one of 29 more schools that have partnered with Coursera to offer massive, online, open classes, or MOOCs, according to a report by VentureBeat.
Coursera now counts 62 schools offering courses on its platform, and in this latest group, 16 schools are located overseas, VentureBeat said. The Daily Northwestern reported that Northwestern students can't receive credit for Coursera's offerings, but that for-credit online courses would be available in the fall through Semester Online, which, according to its web site, is a consortium of colleges and universities including Duke University, Emory University, and Washington University in St. Louis as well as Northwestern.
In January, the New York Times reported on Coursera's efforts to monetize, saying the company hasn't yet articulated a way to profitability and that its first significant revenue actually came from Amazon referrals. Ron Leuty of the San Francisco Business Times is in the midst of reporting on his experience with MOOCs, including a class on Coursera.


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|£2 200
|approximately 24 months
Course Summary
The Level 5 Diploma in Leadership for Health and Social Care and Children and Young People's Services is aimed at individuals who lead social care provision in an adult or a children and young people's setting, either as managers or as senior practitioners.
This qualification replaces the current Level 4 NVQ in Leadership and Management for Care Services and the Level 4 NVQ in Health and Social Care. It has six pathways of which three relate to Health and Social Care settings.
- The management pathway is suitable for assistant managers and deputy managers working in day or domiciliary services who are looking to progress their career. They are also appropriate for managers who have not yet achieved a vocational qualification at this level.
Residential Services:
- The residential services pathway is aimed at those in similar job roles as those taking the management pathway but offer a focus on management and care in residential settings.
Advanced Practice:
- The Advanced Practice pathway is suitable for senior practitioners who would like to develop their career but wish to remain active practitioners within the management framework.
- Learners who achieve the Level 5 Diploma can progress to higher education courses in health and social care leadership at undergraduate or postgraduate level.
Entry requirements
- Be either a manager or senior practitioner
- Have agreement from your employer to allow an assessor to visit you in the workplace
- Have a minimum of 3 months' prior experience in your job role
- Be working a minimum of 15 hours per week
Course content
There are five mandatory learning outcomes covering the three pathways:
- Using and developing systems that promote communication
- Promoting professional development
- Championing equality, diversity and inclusion
- Developing health and safety and risk management policies procedures and practices in health and social care settings
- Work in partnership in health and social care settings
- Undertake a Research Project within Services for Health and Social Care or Children and Young People
There are a number of optional units and relate to the pathway chosen. They can include:
- Leadership and Management
- Promotion of well-being
- Development of procedures and good practice
- Understanding professional supervision and lead
- Practicing support for positive outcomes
- Understanding the development of service users
- Development of safeguarding policies and procedures
- Manage induction
- Support individuals to access housing and accommodation services
Timings and Assessments
- Approximately 24 months.
- Once the appropriate units are agreed, assessment can start. An assessor will visit you in your workplace. They will plan their visits in advance and will accommodate your work pattern and activities. Assessment visits usually take place every 3-4 weeks and last approximately 1-1.5 hours each. You will be set tasks to complete between visits.
- Your assessor will work with you to cover the knowledge and skills covered in the qualification. As well as being able to complete tasks competently, you should know why you do them a certain way. Together you will gather evidence to demonstrate you meet the qualification standards. A variety of assessment methods will be used. These will usually contain a mixture of:
- Observation
- Work products
- Professional discussions
- Oral and/or written question & answers
- Reflective accounts
- Witness testimonies
- Our Assessors will visit you once a month in the workplace
- Start anytime
Costs and Resources
- From £2,200 dependent on location
- For further information about this course please contact a member of the Fast Forward Team on 01793 732892 or email: firstname.lastname@example.com
Course Area:


text: Can someone explain to me about the registration in the UK? I understand there are desireable numbers and specialized numbers are hard to come by -- there is an actual trade in registration plates or something? I also sometimes hear cars referred to as having such-and-such a reg -- "it has a Y-reg." What's all this about? On this side of the pond, you get a plate when you register or transfer the car, issued by your state. If you want one of the specialized plates commemorating some event, wartime service, charity, or custom character sequence, you sign up for them (provide documentation of service if need be), pay a smallish fee and await the mails. So I am in the dark. Have no need to know, just curious. Regards, Huntsman


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James K. Baxter was a seminal figure in New Zealand's literary world and exercised an extraordinary influence on society in his relatively short life.
W. H. Oliver, a friend of Baxter from the 1940s until his death, provides a vivid portrayal of the poet's life in this generously illustrated biography. He chronicles Baxter's struggles and search for fulfilment in his religious beliefs and relationships. Above all Oliver emphasises the importance of the poetry that is Baxter's legacy to New Zealand literature today.
A Portrait is a fascinating and lively introduction to a remarkable figure, and a critical insight into the times in which he lived.


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Beach Body's Turbo Fire 15 DVD set
$45 by Bookoo Fan in Houston, Aug 17
Cardio Traning/Fat Burning System. Includes 15 DVDs so you can train in your home. Includes classes such as : Hit, Fire, Stretch, Sculpt. In original packaging. Parts have never even been opened.
Posted in: Exercise. 2 people are following this item.
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Nine of every 10 motorists believe that they are put at personal risk by others who talk on cellphones while driving. But seven out of 10 drivers report doing exactly that themselves anyway.
That's according to a new survey by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety. It also found that motorists who use cellphones while driving are more likely to engage in additional risky behavior such as speeding, drowsy driving, not wearing seat belts, or texting or sending emails while behind the wheel.
"What concerns AAA is this pattern of risky behavior that even goes beyond cellphone use," said Rolayne Fairclough, AAA Utah spokeswoman. "These same cellphone-using drivers clearly understand the risk of distraction, yet are still likely to engage in a wide range of dangerous driving activities."


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If you don't know what Bitcoin is, here's your chance to get a condensed understanding. Tatiana Moroz is a singer-songwriter, so you might wonder why Kristin Tate is doing an episode of the Be The Change podcast with her about a topic like Bitcoin. The reason is that Tatiana is not only using Bitcoin as a… Read more »
Tatiana Moroz Interviewed on The Bunbury Report
Tatiana Moroz joins Joey Clark to discuss her music career, how she fell in love with liberty, her own cryptocurrency, Tatiana Coin, and much, much more!
Tatiana Moroz Listed as One of the Top FinTech Influencers in the USA
These are exciting times for financial services. On one hand, several FinTech startups are providing solutions for specific problems and on the other, incumbents are bringing more digitization and tech-enabled products to their existing customers. The ongoing debate between banks and FinTechs at war is also giving way to collaboration, partnership and acquisition. Recently Let's… Read more »
Upcoming talks at LABitConf in Mexico City & Los Angeles: Entertainment and the Blockchain
Bitcoin & the Blockchain for the Entertainment Industry December 1 at 7:00 PM: Join me for my upcoming appearance at the Bitcoin meetup at WeWork – Hollywood in Los Angeles. Here are some more details below: By now just about everyone has heard of bitcoin. For many years, the technology sat on the fringe. Now,… Read more »


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Here is the brisket I smoked Monday night for Christmas lunchm The wife cooked a ham in the oven :(. It was good too, though. I put a pic of it too to make her happy. The brisket was a 12.75-lb packer. It took 19 hours to hit 185° in the flat.
post #1 of 9
12/26/07 at 4:17pm
Thread Starter


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Ideal to celebrate the 375th anniversary of Montreal this summer! Very sunny and quiet. Breathtaking views. In the heart of the historical Old Montreal and overviewing Place Jacques-Cartier. Close from finest restaurants, stores, Saint-Laurent River and all transportation. All utilities included. Amazing rooftop.
The space
Very sunny and quiet. Breathtaking views. In the heart of the historical and chic Old Montreal, this beautiful loft overviews the wonderful Place Jacques-Cartier, it is 5 seconds from everything: finest restaurants, high-end boutiques, galleries and terraces, Bonsecours Market, museums, gift stores and groceries, live music.
Located on the banks of the Saint-Lawrence river in the Old Port of Montreal: nautical and sports activities, Clock Tower sandy beach, cruises, cultural events, fireworks, IMAX 3D theater, riverfront access for walking, cycling, roller-blading, quadricycle, pedalo and Segway.
The loft is fully equipped: A/C, dishwasher, washer dryer, bathtub / shower with multi stream jet shower head, microwave, queen-sized bed, unlimited high-speed Internet, flat screen TV with cable, linens, towels, shelves, desk, table, chairs, sofa.
Access to a roof with amazing 360 views on the St-Laurent river and Montreal
In a historic recently renovated 19th Century Building with security access.
On cobbled Saint-Paul street, the oldest street in Montreal.
Connected to the city: Champ-de-Mars subway (orange line) at 2 minutes, bike paths, a taxi stand, good bus routes. All very close.
Walking: you can walk to the heart of Montreal and Chinatown in about 5 minutes.
Guest access
Access to a rooftop with 360 degrees unique view on the whole city of Montreal and the St-Lawrence River.
Interaction with guests
I can be reached anytime to offer help throughout the stay of my guests. I remain at the disposal of my guests.
Other things to note
This place is unique for 4 main reasons:
1 - Amazing location in an historical building in the heart of Old Montreal and close to all transportations, stores, restaurants, etc.
2- Very quiet
3- Extremely sunny
4- Breathtaking views
No smoking
2 Reviews
Well-traveled and reliable professional, enjoying multicultural environment, with strong European and North-American background.
Love traveling, discovering new cities, addicted to sports and swimming, love music and reading.


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The Deal
- $44 for a 60-minute full-body deep-tissue or Swedish massage ($80 value)
Salon 658
While the staff of Salon 658 boasts a combined experience of over 35 years, 14 of those years belong exclusively to salon owner Kate Nicholson. Even as the boss, she continues to work as a stylist. She says she loves "that I get to transform someone's look and make them feel amazing." She doesn't like to pursue a look at the expense of hair health, though; accordingly, she and her staff make use of organic haircare products in their work.


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Research and analysis
The social amplification of risk
A study to understand how social issues amplify or attenuate the feeling of risk or harm.
The Social Amplification of Risk
Ref: LIT 1452 PDF, 89.2KB, 3 pages
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A large proportion of the work of the Agency involves a focus on risk perception and risk communication. Frequently, staff will be involved in communicating about the risks associated with operational work or responding to concerns about a particular issue which may have been raised in the news or by local communities. Sometimes, there will be a discrepancy between the risks perceived by experts and the way in which risks are reported and perceived by lay people.
Document information
Published: 1 January 2002
From: Environment Agency


text: FWD A Status Report On Hunger and Homelessness in American Cities Completed by the U.S. Conference of Mayors: Task Force On Hunger and Homelessness City: *Seattle, Washington Hunger Requests by Families for Emergency Food Assistance: Food banks and hot meal programs continue to see increasing numbers of both single-parent and two parent families. In addition, requests for infant formula, baby food and diapers at food banks continues to increase. The Capacity to meet the Need: City funding stayed constant, and state funding increased slightly. Increases, however have not been sufficient to meet rising demands for services. In recent months, some food supplies were diverted to disaster areas (Florida, Louisiana and Hawaii), and potential donors have shifted their support to these disaster areas. in addition, USDA commodities distributed by food banks will not be available. Emergency Food Assistance facilities: For Emergencies Only or as a Steady Source of income: Most emergency meal programs provide meals once or twice a week, and do not provide more then one meal during each day of operation. Most food banks are only able to supply enough food to feed a family for one to two days and must limit food bank visits by a household to one per week. Even with food stamps and other sources of income/support, this is not sufficient to provide an adequate amount of food. Facilities Having to turn People Away Because of Lack of Resources: Food banks generally attempt to serve all people requesting food, which frequently results in severely limiting the amount of food made available to each individual of family, and in the setting of limits on the numbers of visits allowed each month. recently, however due to severe food shortages and increased demands for assistance, some food banks are having to turn people away. Meal programs continue to be overwhelmed by demands for assistance, and some regularly turn people away. Homelessness The Population: Across the survey cities, it is estimated that single men comprise 55 percent of the homeless population, families with children 32 percent, single women 11 percent and unaccompanied youth two percent of the homeless population. City officials estimate that 52 percent of the homeless population is African-American, 33 percent is white, 11 percent is Hispanic, three percent is native American and one percent is Asian. It is estimated that persons considered mentally ill account for 28 percent of the homeless population in the survey cities; substance abusers account for 41 percent. In survey cities 17 percent of the homeless people are employed in full- or part-time jobs and 18 percent are veterans. Nine percent of the homeless people in the survey cities have AIDS or HIV related illness. The Conditions faced by Homeless Families and Individuals: The impact of homelessness on families is enormous, ranging from depression to severe stress resulting from continued separation and uncertainty. Homeless families and children experience increased health problems due to stress, exposure and inadequate nutrition, as well as a lack of preventative health care. Case Studies of homeless Families and Individuals: This family of two parents and three children under the age seven have been in the shelter system since 1982. The father is a Vietnam veteran with numerous medical problems and is currently being treated at the VA hospital. the family lost its home as a result of his inability to work, coupled with large incurred medical expenses. He qualifies as 100 percent disabled and is eligible for veterans' benefits. However, the paperwork and red-tape have prevented the family from receiving the family to access traditional housing and has provided supportive services, including enrolling the oldest child in a school for homeless children, and providing health care and information and referral to other community resources. the family will remain in transitional housing until the VA benefits become available. Limitations on the Use of Shelter Facilities: Fewer and fewer shelters providing services to families require that they leave the shelter during the day if the children are sick or if the family has counseling or health appointments at the shelter. however, not all agencies have sufficient resources to hire staff to provide services to families over a 24-hour period. Families unable to stay at the shelter during the day are likely to spend the day on the street, in parks, and/or at public agencies seeking assistance. day care and school are available for homeless children. People Turned Away from Shelters: An estimated 53,000 members of families of families with children were turned away from shelters in 1991. The city has a program that provides emergency shelter to homeless families who are found sleeping on the streets. however, there has been a reported increase in the number of families sleeping in cars throughout the county, and doubling up in poor housing situations. The number of homeless persons on any given night in Seattle exceeds the number of shelter beds by 500-800 persons. Single adults often sleep in doorways, alleys and parks, and this includes increasing numbers of women. Families and youth often stay in poor housing situations, or sleep in cars in outlying neighborhoods and parks. How the problems of Hunger and Homelessness have Changed in 10 Years: In the last 12 years, Seattle, King County and suburban jurisdiction, and areas across the nation have seen a dramatic increase in the number of individuals and families who are homeless. The increase in homelessness in the Pacific Northwest is the result of a number of different trends: 1. Insufficient affordable housing resources due to the decreased federal funding for housing development, demolition of low-cost rental stock (including SRO hotels), and across the board inflation in the cost of Seattle's rental housing and land; 2. Inadequate public assistance grants and low entry-level wages; 3. Lack of educational and training opportunities; 4. Inadequate community-based treatment and residential support services for people who are disabled by mental illness, alcoholism and drug addiction and other disabilities; 5. Domestic violence and sexual assault and their impact on women, children and teen agers, particularly teen mothers; 6. Weak economic conditions that disproportionately affect people of color and non-english speaking residents, particularly homeless Latinos. The service response funded by the city has grown dramatically to fill in the void left by the federal government and to meet drastically greater levels of need by low income people. The Most Significant Change: A dramatic and continuing increase in the number of homeless single women and families headed by single women who are living in poverty facing complex and devastating barriers to stabilization.


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Sigalsub Inox Trident with 3 Moving Barbs
Product description
Tridents for underwater gun
Buy Sigalsub Inox Trident with 3 Moving Barbs at the lowest price! Our online shop for dive, scubastore makes your dreams come true! Find Spearguns at unbeatable prices. Have a look on our detailed description with characteristics and reviews of other customers who already bought the Sigalsub Inox Trident with 3 Moving Barbs. Find the latest reductions and discover all our sales on our dive catalogue at amazing discount prices!
View more related products to:Sigalsub - Spearguns - Speartips and tridents Tip type: multiple
Giuseppe (2017-01-05)
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unique product for its fins that leave little hope to prey about the material used would have much to write virtually became rusty color after three hours at sea about Scubastore product delivered on time and after call from reliable courier at 100x100.
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Please join us for a night of knowledge, worship and remembrance. Special guests include Sh. Abdul Nasir Jangda from Bayyinah Insitute and Br. AbdelRahman Murphy Youth Director from Dallas, TX. Qiyam prayer led by Brs. Adnan Siddiqui and Yousef Mohsin.
11:30pm A Path to Rememberance Br. AbdelRahman Murphy
12:30pm Break & Rest
1:00am Ramadan: The Month of Du'a Sheikh Abdul Nasir Jangda
2:00am Break & Personal Worship
3:00am Purified: Seeking Tawba Br. AbdelRahman Murphy
3:30am Qiyam Prayer Adnan Siddiqui/Yusuf
4:30am Suhur
5:30am Fajr Prayer
5:45am Selected Tafsir of Quran Sheikh Abdul Nasir Jangda
6:45am Reflections


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Obviously, you didn't buy your Lynx unless you understood you would be getting strength and a dash of luxury both rolled up into one car, truck, or SUV. You purchased your Lynx because its high-value and long-lasting quality agreed with your nature; so why would you settle for second rate when it comes to great quality auto parts? When your Mercury Lynx rolled off the assembly line, it was destined for a person with discerning taste who wants a trusted name in their automobile. It's not a regular occurrence that you find yourself in need of a replacement Brake Master Cylinder for your automobile.
As far back as two thousand years ago, the Greeks and Romans were using hydraulic pressure to provide drinking water to cities. Your Mercury Lynx has a brake master cylinder that creates a large amount of pressure for your braking system inside a very small space. This part compresses fluid inside the cylinder and sends it to your calipers and/or wheel cylinders. The calipers and wheel cylinders are a form of slave cylinder; using the hydraulic pressure from the Mercury Lynx brake master cylinder to pinch your brake pads against the rotor or the brake shoes against the drum so you can regain control of your automobile when necessary.
Don't let a broken Brake Master Cylinder spell the end of your car, truck, or SUV, and don't risk lowering its resale value by buying anything but the best repair parts. Get your Lynx back on the road with the highest quality repair parts from the experts at Car Parts Discount. When your Mercury needs the best replacement Brake Master Cylinder, there's no need to trust any store other than the authority, Car Parts Discount. All the Mercury Lynx Brake Master Cylinder parts on this page will fit vehicles made in 1987, 1986, 1985, 1984, 1983, 1982, 1981. Choose your year below to refine your search.


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Patio, Carport & Screen Room Installations in Memphis, TN
At Maclin we understand that your home and vehicle are the most important and expensive investments you'll have. Our carports allow for safe entry in and out of your home. In addition they help protect your vehicle's paint.
Our aluminum carports are built to last. With a baked on enamel finish, they are designed to hold their color and provide a virtually maintenance free protection for your car, boat or RV. We offer single and double carport options along with insulated covers-perfect for patios that maybe eventually enclosed. We offer a wide range of color options from white to terra cotta to clay.
In addition to carports, you can count on us to craft the perfect patio for your needs. Our patios are built to last and are made for you to take the comforts of indoors, outdoors. Give the kids and yourself more space! Each of our patios can be easily installed anywhere to add on to your current living space.
At Maclin we also offer the following:
- W-pans with optional leaf guards and bug plugs
- Flat pans with optional leaf guards and an after-market insulation package
- 3 inch insulated roofs are also available
We can assist with free standing awnings, commercial awning canopies, aluminum carports, and more. Contact us today for a free estimate.


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Business Meets the Power of Social Media
eBook (ePub)
Price: $6.99
Business Meets the Power of Social Media is a quick read for those who want to learn more about how social media is affecting our professional lives. From the news we consume, to sports and entertainment, to Tweeting at work, the way we communicate and share information has fundamentally changed. Beverly Macy is a highly respected business leader, educator, author and speaker in the field of social media, branding, and strategy. This book is hand-curated from her essays, blog posts, and other material.
Available in ePub Format
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1 Person Reviewed This Product
Jan 26, 2013Beverly Macy explains how Social Media is transforming the world. Social media lead the world to a tipping point. Every aspect of our daily lives go untouched. Technological advances emerges everyday creating a hyper-connected world. A change that reaches everything: -behavioral processes -ideologies -cultural movements -organizational structure -communication -business models Success comes to business' that break down the walls created by the old two-way communication model. Adapting to the new model of communication created by social media. Communication channels are wide open. Social media enables more voices to be heard and amplified through digital stages provided by the dynamic social platforms popping up almost every second of the day. A world allowing more voices creates a shift of power. Business' no longer control the messages received by the masses'. Now they are forced to listen and engage with the masses'. The ones fighting change will surrender to competitors that accept... More > the power of social media.< Less
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Product Details
- 9781300594901
- Copyright
- Beverly Macy (Creative Commons Attribution 2.0)
- Edition
- First Edition
- Published
- January 9, 2013
- Language
- English
- File Format
- ePub
- File Size
Formats for this Ebook
|Required Software
|Any ePub Reader
|Supported Devices
|Windows PC/PocketPC, Mac OS, Linux OS, Apple iPhone/iPod Touch... (See More)
|# of Devices
|Flowing Text / Pages
|Flowing Text
|Learn more about ebook formats and e-readers
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Experience Sicily's Fascinating Puppet Theatres
When you're taking a young family on holidays to Sicily, it usually isn't too long before you come across (typically, quite by accident) a very captivating aspect of the local culture: that of the "pupari". The art of puppeteering has actually been a popular regional folk culture since the 15th century, and I've found enchanting "opera deipupi" in the most unanticipated times and places in my journeys around the island.
Sicily's Marionettes
Becoming their more modern-day kind around the 18th century, although described frequently as puppets, the Sicilian pupi are in fact marionettes-- which means they're managed by a series of strings rather than fitting over the hand. Carved from wood and adorned with cloth and metal armor and accessories from this site , the production of the marionettes is an art form in itself.


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Essays on tradition in the lottery
The Lottery Symbolism In Shirley Jackson's short story "The Lottery" symbols are used to enhance and stress the theme of the story. A symbol is a person, object.
Try Our Friends At: The Essay Store. Free English School Essays. We have lots of essays in our essay database, so please check back here frequently to see the.
Essays on tradition in the lottery
Oct 17, 2012 · Read informative essays & articles on many topics relating to sexual violence, most authored by Pandy's members Article On Tradition Against Modernity. Tradition and Modernity in Europe Europeans are well known for their firm traditions and their unwillingness to... shift from.
The Lottery and Other Stories Summary and Analysis of "The Lottery"
What are the themes (like blindly following tradition) in "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson?