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Our brand new editor's column starts out with an important topic, which doesn't seem to be winning us many friends lately. As the saying goes: You can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but if you try to please all of the people at any time you'll make everyone super-pissed. I think that was Abraham Lincoln.
So does GateWorld allow freedom of expression, or do we censor opinions that don't agree with the Stargate party line? If you dislike something (say, Stargate Universe), will GateWorld's moderators let you have your say?
On the flip side of that, why does GateWorld allow so much hate and criticism of the new Stargate show? Some days it seems like you can't go two clicks without running into the same old names posting the same diatribes against SGU. Particularly since the show's premiere in October, we get a constant stream of flack from both sides: "You're censoring me!" and "You shouldn't allow this!"
What's a guy to do?
Both here on the news comment threads and at GateWorld Forum — which I'm proud to say is now nearly a decade old — our decisions about what we allow boil down to two guiding principles, which are elaborated in the posting rules:
1) We want to be a place where free expression wins the day, where fans of all stripes and points of view can share their opinions and have meaningful conversations.
2) We want to be a place where respect wins the day, friendly and fun to visit, where members of the community are held to the most basic standards of decency and dignity.
1) We want to be a place where free expression wins the day, where fans of all stripes and points of view can share their opinions and have meaningful conversations.
2) We want to be a place where respect wins the day, friendly and fun to visit, where members of the community are held to the most basic standards of decency and dignity.
Mutually exclusive goals? Some days it feels like it. Is it actually possible for critics, many of them angry and disappointed, to express their opinions in a respectful way? Is it possible for devotees to read tactful criticism and not take offense? Some days I want to tell those who think that we allow too much to try moderating GateWorld for 48 hours under the conditions of #1. Other days I want those who seem to have nothing to say apart from their bitter condemnation of SGU to show their appreciation for #1 by trying #2 on for size.
In my opinion, GateWorld's writers, editors, and moderators have been working hard to provide a moderating voice in a Stargate fandom "war" that is quickly putting all past scuffles to shame. We have vocally supported the show, publishing news and publicity and talking on the weekly podcast about how the writers seem to be giving us just we want: a show more focused on character drama than action, with more extended story arcs and a fresh take on storytelling in the Stargate universe. From the first frame, I think SGU has been delivering.
On the other hand, I think those who have criticized certain aspects of the series have a point. So we've also criticized aspects of various episodes, though we've tried to be thoughtful and respectful in doing it. But more than any specific criticisms with which I might agree (too much use of the stones) or disagree (I think "shakey cam" is dynamic and not overdone), viewers have a right to be heard. If they can comment on the show tactfully and with respect for its cast and creators, and for those fans who do like it, they should be able to do so. Even if they do it a lot.
Unfortunately, the tactful and respectful criticism has been too rare for my tastes. Words like "crap" and "stupid" and "idiot" aren't respectful to anyone, and we'll continue to delete posts where readers insist on voicing their discontent through hate and insult. Call it "censorship" if you like, but I don't come over to your house for dinner and rant about how the pot roast tastes like crap and that your kids are ugly. There's a time and a place for criticism — but, more importantly, there's a right and a wrong way to do it.
So, my advice for those who are complaining about censorship and who want to get their voice heard: Do it with class. Think it through. Be specific, and be constructive. Self-edit. If you are moderated, try and figure out why so that you can improve your posting habits. If you're trying to get your comment noticed by the producers, think about the fact that they really do want to know what people think of their work … but if the critique is couched in insults and malcontent, they won't hear anything you have to say.
We don't want to censor anyone. And we don't want to continue to crumble into a place known only for hatred and bile. And so we try to maintain the balance. And most days, no one seems happy with the result. So, tell me — what would you do differently?
"I really enjoy the podcasts. Please keep up the great work. I'd really like to hear a podcast on the comparison of Babylon 5 vs. Stargate in general." (Eagle1)
I would love to do a Stargate vs. Babylon 5 show, but first I have to convince David to watch it! If you listened to this week's show, you'll know that I bring up B5 just about every time we talk about story arcs or religion in sci-fi. He's rather selective and doesn't seem to like watching 10 shows at the same time, like me … so I guess you need to get on his case, too!
"I would like to know your take on the issue of the SG-1 / SGA movies. Sources say that MGM is out of money or running out of money, yet we get such deep thought provoking fair as Hot Tub Time Machine …" (OCD4theSGC)
Any time MGM releases a film I take it as a good sign and pray for its success. The studio is down to something like one or two releases per year, which I take to be just this side of out-of-business. They need hits other than Bond, Stargate, and (sometimes) Rocky. Otherwise the studio has to live off its archives, which probably just won't work.
"What is going on with the Stargate Movies? I know about all the financial trouble … but give us some more details on when Brad Wright thinks they will start filming?" (Jimmy007)
Obviously everyone is eager (and growing frustrated) about the next Stargate movies. Will they happen? Won't they happen? MGM is on the auction block at the moment, so I don't think anyone knows for sure. Ask the new owners. There's no point in The Powers That Be at Stargate saying anything more right now, because there is nothing definitive to say. They'd like to make the movies, but need money from MGM to do it.
The movies aren't dead, gang. The more time that passes, perhaps the longer the odds get. But the people with the purse strings have to say "Yes" or "No" before anything else happens.
"How do you view SGU's treatment by Syfy? Since it's been pushed to April, does that mean Syfy has little to no faith in it?" (Mrja84)
I think the network has done well by the show. The 4-month break in the middle of the season has nothing to do with Stargate and everything to do with Syfy's desire to air original programming all year long. It's a strategy they've used with Stargate just about every year, with a few exceptions (including the last two years of Atlantis).
Unfortunately, while it may be better for the network to not have to show reruns of Sharktopus and Mansquito, I don't think it's better for the show. SGU is too arc-driven for that long of a break to be anything but harmful. MGM and Syfy spent a lot of money and effort getting viewers to tune in for the October premiere, and now they'll have to do it all over again for April. ABC learned a long time ago that when they split up a season of LOST, they can't get nearly as many viewers to come back. (Same with FOX and 24.) There is definite wisdom in running the season all the way through and then making us wait six to eight months for the next run.
With SGU, there's also the added factors that 1) it's a brand new show, so viewers are deciding whether to follow it; and 2) it's controversial with established Stargate fans because it's such a departure. Many fans gave it 10 episodes, but may not come back for #11 — which we hear is when things really get good. If there was a small (or no) break between "Justice" and "Space," I suspect audience retention would be higher.
"Do you see SGU using any previous elements of Stargate in future episodes? Technology may be the easiest, but would characters/cultures likely appear that are not apart of the previous main characters?" (Mrja84)
I would just about guarantee it. The show's writers love to bring in elements from the show's established mythology, which is one of the reasons we love it so much. Take the Ancient chair interface, for example. We also know already that a certain group of baddies from SG-1 will turn up before the season is out …
"Realistically, how deep in the hole do you think CME is?" (Mrja84)
From the statement the video game studio released this week: Deep enough to declare bankruptcy, but not deep enough that everyone at CME is convinced they should have.
"What happened to the Friday 5! I really miss those." (Emily)
That series was a lot of fun to do but a lot of work. Add to that a cross-country move, a wedding, an international move, and then the launch of SGU, and I decided to limit it to a summer series. Time permitting, it may return next summer.
Last but not least, we received the following alternate title suggestions for this weekly column:
"Windows of Opportunity" (David Bloch)
"Indeed!" (Cindy Billings, Brett)
"I Was Told There'd Be Cake" (Brett)
Thanks, everyone! I think we'll stick with "For Cryin' Out Loud," at least for the time being. It captures the way I feel just about every Friday, after spending a week of moderating comments.
We got lots of comments and e-mails with topic ideas and questions, so if yours didn't show up this week, we might work it in next Friday! In the meantime, your questions and comments about this week's column are always welcome. See you in the thread below — but please, keep it nice!
The root of problem isn't the Gateworld mods, it's the thought Nazi who wants to control how fan should feel and what they should say.
At this point, I'd be happy for ANY expression on GateWorld. Signed up, made a hello post (and no, not a flaming heap of insults entry post) and my access at the forum has been squelched. I keep getting told to contact the mods. Fair enough. Just try to do that when your access to the forum has been zapped. So at this point, ANY expression would be nice :)
Do contact the mods — you can e-mail webmaster -at- gateworld.net and I will forward it on. On rare occasion they moderate new accounts preemptively when the e-mail address, linked Web site, etc. smells of spam. Not saying yours did, but it does happen on occasion.
Thats a bit harsh.
I like SGU, but I am happy to hear criticism of the show. However when every single newspost, has 4 or 5 people verbally abusing SGU the whole time it gets ridiculous.
Hell The article about Stargate Worlds being delayed was rife with it. Why do people feel the need to tell the world over and over again that a show is s***. They aren't adding to the debate, they are Trolls, it's like going onto a Mac forum and going.
or going onto a Windows forum and going.
Microsucks is a load of crap!
All you do is make people angry, and frankly I am sick of people mindlessly insulting a show. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
Also this isn't a country, you aren't stuck here, you can easily leave this site if you want to. Don't like the Mods, leave find a site that supports your views.
Everyone should be able to post something without writing ugly and vulgar words, it shows a lack of class, character, and knowledge. I personally have enjoyed watching every episode of all of the Stargate franchises. If I had to rank them, they would be in the following order: (1)Stargate Atlantis; (2)Stargate SG-1;(3)Stargate Ark of Truth & Continum; (4)Stargate Universe. We all should not agree about everything that comes on TV, but we all should be able to post comments without being rude to others.
Thank You for all the stargate shows!
You will always encounter heated discussion/debate when you have a myriad of different opinions and more so when you get emotions thrown into the mix. Not everyone expresses themselves the same way and sometimes in hind sight some posts could be worded better, but overall I don't understand the fuss the SGU criticism has generated. Most of the criticism has been in threads where posters have been asked their opinion, or discussions on the Home Page such as the Brian Smith one. There are many places that fans of the show can go and discuss what they like about the show to their hearts content,and where posters who dislike the show rarely frequent.
But even if your opinion of SGU has been asked as soon as it becomes too critical or gets a little heated the thread gets closed. Downright rudeness should be curtailed and any personal insults, but I don't see why they should be limited in what they are allowed to say or how many times they say it. Is there a limit to what you are allowed to dislike about the show. Is it only permitted to criticise aspects of the show
But what if you like nothing about the show. I think most posters say their piece and move on and only topics such as the recent Brian Smith one draw them back into SGU related topics. Most of these fans are either fans of SGA/SG1 or both and are not just stopping by GW because they have nothing better to do then criticise a show just for the sake of it. Maybe SGU gets so much criticism because it deserves it. Its not just fans who have criticised this show. Its from a wide range of critics. The ratings have only been marginally better than SGA, DVD sales are not good, but yet anyone who criticises the show are labeled haters and treated as if they have no reason to feel how they do.
When did fans ask for a new show or for everything that they loved about the franchise to be taken out of it. When did they ask for the show they loved to be cancelled, so how can it be said that fans are getting what they asked for. Fans asked for more character development for the existing show and the characters they loved. They asked for some decent writing for all the existing cast and possibly some new talent allowed into the writing room, so why should they be happpy with what was delivered when it had nothing to do with what they asked for!
But the ptb should be able to deal with the level of criticism and stop lashing back at fans. You can't force anyone to like something they don't. If SGU is done well, irrespective of what direction the ptb have taken the franchise it will get an audience. It will thrive on its own merits no matter how far removed they are from the original premise. Time will tell whether SGU will retain a big enough audience who enjoys this new style but the ptb cannot keep trying to silence or get upset with fans who are not interested in this new Stargate.
As far as censorship goes on this site I have noticed a few posts that I agree with have suddenly vanished but over all I have found the site to be more or less fair. Those who don't like SGU have been given more than their fair share of chances to state the reasons why they don't like the show. As have those who do. The back and forth between the two however has not always been very mature or respectable on either side. This does not apply to all and I will refrain from naming names but this problem runs from TPTB and the SGU supporters down to the SGUSucks.com people all of whom refuse to show any respect for those with differing opinions.
Personally I strongly dislike SGU. I gave it the 3 part pilot to hook me (both SG1 and Atlantis won me over with their 2 part pilots) but SGU did anything but. I have since followed SGU on this site as well as caught bits and pieces on TV and have found absolutely nothing apart from possibly the episode Time to take my interest. But considering my strong dislike, bordering on all out hatred of the characters and already knowing they all survive the episode my interest in actually watching it is close to zero.
People are free to think what they will about SGU but the petty attacks on both sides are really quiet pathetic. The sad thing about it is that it isn't just limited to the fan base but TPTB and the actors (like Smith in that recent interview or by extention his mum when she entered the fray) are throwing themselves into this mess, defending the show without showing much (if any) respect to the fans. Which in turn leads to the fans not showing much if any respect back.
There are so many holes in the logic of your comment, namely:
1. It is not same people telling over and over again, it is many people expressing similar opinions.
2. People are free to express their opinion as long as they are not attacking anyone.
3. This is not like PC vs MACs at all, this is like XP vs Vista, two different product from the same company with the same root. When microsoft released Vista, it was exactly like when Syfy released SGU. There was massive uproar by many of the windows users. All expressing simialr opinions that it sucks. (then MS quickly fixed their problems and released Windows 7).
4. Just because you feel angry that doesn't give you more rights than others.
5. On this site, there are far more "mindless bashing" to THE PEOPLE who express why they don't like the show, than actual mindless bashing of THE SHOW itself.
6. The right way to counter negative opinions is to express that you like the show and why you like it, not tell others to shut up and go else where.
7. A lot of people don't like SGU, this is the current reality. If you hate the currently reality that is your problem, not ours, Again, it doesn't automatically give you any extra rights.
8. Your words can apply to yourself: "If you don't like it, don't read it.", "find a site that supports your views".
All you said was basically "I don't like what you are saying, shut up and go away", and this is exactly what I was talking about, thought Nazi controlling what others should feel and should do.
I like the moderation. I do believe in freedom of speech but that does not excuse rudeness or verbal cruelty.
I only came back to the forums at GateWorld a few years ago because I was going to a Stargate Convention by myself and had hoped to find some Con vets to get some info.
A long time ago I was a GateWorld forum member. I ended up leaving because of repeated verbal attacks. The straw that broke the camels back was when I was asked who my favorite character was. My reply was not even a sentence, just two words, a first and last name. I was told off by more than one person. After that I left.
Not everyone is going to share the same opinion. And there is nothing wrong with debating about it. What is wrong is attacking posters, being rude. No system is ever going to be perfect. The moderators are volunteers and I thank them for what they do. If you do get moderated and don't agree, contact the moderator directly (not in an open forum).
PS – Good article Darren.
"Fair and Balanced"
Where did i hear that before?
Oh right…
Also the need to respond to accusations of censorship and denial of freedom of expression is proof enough that something is very wrong on this site.
Seriously, you had the need to write a column about freedom of expression, so I'm guessing its not just one or two trolls whining but enough people to warrant an official response.
Also, you know, the more you say you are "fair and balanced" the less it's true.
If all one wants is praise about this new show then just write a blog and don't allow any comments at all. If all you want to read mirrors your opinion then you can just read your own writings. Just wait until SGU starts up again. The diatribe will dominate once again.
I am going to try and keep this has civil as I can.
GW censors, cannot get any more to the point. Why? Negative posts about SGU would be removed in a heartbeat. Then when members start bashing SGA and SG-1 those posts don't get removed. Obviously since I am far from the only person who sees this, there is a problem.
I think it is interesting that GW's new vision statement came into play right before SGU was released. It seems BW and the producers asked Darren to cut things down or they would pull their endorsement or whatever. I hate to believe that but it really feels like that is the case. One of the mods on the forum went the extra step to even insult another member.
I was visiting SGUsucks.com. They said that the SyFy forums less censor than GW. That is a shocker since SyFy is a network forum you would think there is more censoring.
I'm sorry, but I only post on GW to talk to some of the members there who are still interesting to talk to. Sadly have to take the censorship and the bitter mods in the process. Not sure how much longer I can take.
I don't really want to get involved in another argument but will just give my 2 cents. Those who do dislike SGU and wish to continue to post criticisms about it can I please ask that you do it in places that make seance.
Like for example what's the point behind having anti SGU comments here: https://www.gateworld.net/news/2010/02/stargate-video-game-developer-files-for-bankruptcy/ & here: https://www.gateworld.net/news/2010/02/propworx-stargate-auctions-week-five/ those articles have nothing to do with SGU but some felt the need to throw in dissatisfaction towards SGU in the comments which would only lead to the discussion going off topic.
Are you guys getting pressure from people in charge of universe and family members of actors to censor negative comments? Has there been a spoken or unspoken threat of discontinuing your insider access if you don't censor? These are honest questions and many people are asking them. Some now see gateworld as less of a site for all fans and viewpoints and more of a sterilized mouthpiece for the show.
It would have been more wrong if Gateworld did not responded at all to the critisism.
My opinion is that Gateworld is a fansite, not a federal agency. They don't have to be fair and balanced if they don't want to. And yet, I believe GW is the most neutral place about all Stargate. And that's a big compliment to the website
you have asked that we post criticisms in places that make seance.
this implies that you want us to talk to the dead.
SGu isnt there yet but it is only a matter of time.
@Darren: Just to clarify, "I don't come over to your house for dinner and rant about how the pot roast tastes like crap and that your kids are ugly. There's a time and a place for criticism"
Are you referring to Comments left by posters to your Articles and Editorials, or are you referring to poster comments about SGU?
I know it's a bad example about people coming over for dinner, and complaining about the pot roast. But then, I don't give out open invitations to every Dick, Tom and Harry to walk in and eat my Pot Roast. The friends I invite already knows how bad a cook I am, and how ugly my kids are, and respectfully stay away. A Blog or a website like Gateworld is by default, Open House. A few Pro SGU people seem to have got a free pass to say whatever they want, but as soon as they were called to task, the posters who objected were called the rabble rousers, and their posts got moderated, edited for content or downright deleted. If your site has affiliations, openly state it and get it out of the way. We understand it. If it is a part of a revenue gathering infrastructure, sure we understand, 'cause everyone desires making a monetary profit. But to come off as an "Unbiased Third Party Reviewer" gets stretched quite thin when the sentiments are obvious.
To begin with, most of us never had a Beef (pun intended) with Gateworld, but since it is evident that Gateworld had picked a side (and to go on with your Pot Roast analogy), We now have a bone to pick. Again, to most of us, Gateworld WAS the quintessential gathering place to discuss topics relating to Stargate. Once the gags, and the duct tape came out, we saw the site in a whole new different light. Wordsmiths more eloquent than I, have put forward a solid case why we don't like SGU. So I don't need to beat that dead horse. Being an operator of fan site also calls for objectivity. If not, these same people come off as "sell outs" losing all credibility.
Hopefully I have stated my case, without cause for moderation.
adamtm, you are blowing smoke. Tell me how you would moderate this site under these conditions, while upholding both principles outlined above?
Or would you sacrifice one?
ScoobyDoo: "Negative posts about SGU would be removed in a heartbeat." Then why on earth are so many people complaining to me about the SGU hate that is posted here every day? You may not like the level of moderation we've chosen for our site, but you can't tell me that we bar negative comments about SGU. Anyone with eyes sees that it ain't so.
You've seen posts removed. You've had posts removed. Granted. Have you considered the possibility that they weren't removed because they were critical of SGU, but because you violated a clearly stated rule about tact and respect?
US06154: Thanks for the comments — I appreciate your post. I'm referring generally to GW Forum and more specifically to the comment threads on GW news items (and editorials, like this one).
Yes, the family dinner analogy can be stretched too thin. You're right that a public Web site like ours has an "open door." The point is not that people don't have a right to say anything, but that they have a duty to treat the home owner and the cook with respect when they say it. "Seems like it needs more salt" is a more welcome criticism than "Yech, this is godawful."
From where I sit, GateWorld hasn't had to pick a side. We've refused to pick a side, and both sides are now at us for not doing things their way. We either moderate way too much, or not nearly enough.
I think GW does a fine job of moderating.
I understand not liking SGU, I really do. I absolutely hated SGA and can rarely find anything good to say about it. So y'know what I do? Nothing. I don't need to insult SGA, or its cast, or its fans. I don't crack jokes about it being "dead." I don't go into a thread about a video-game company going bankrupt and say things like (to borrow a few words from Darren) "I'm so glad they cancelled that crap SGA. SGU is loads better than that stupid show!" It's unnecessary and it's rude and it creates a hostile environment. Mind you, not all the fans opposed to SGU are so tactless, many have expressed themselves eloquently and politely, and I've yet to see them being modded.
The only mistake I think has been made by GW/the mods is to not allow a critique and contemplation thread for SGU when both SG1 and SGA have them. I know it was done in the attempt to not create fancamps (and considering the vitriol spewed by some fans I can even understand it), but it does sort of give off the vibe that SGU is being held to different standards than the other shows.
At the end of the day, the mods are just trying to make GW a place where all fans can feel welcome. I don't envy them the job.
Darren, nobody here expected you to come out and say Gateworld isn't fair, of course that is what you're going to say.
But come on, everyone knows the so called "tact and respect" bar for the Gateworld forum is at least 10x higher than the news article comment section.
The same posts that would appear on the Syfy forum, would never see the light of day on Gateworld forum, it has been this way for months.
I am sure about this because I posted the same post on Gateworld and Syfy, the ones on Syfy forum showed up but the ones I posted on Gateworld never saw the light of day. Since then I never bothered to check the forums again, and I've been hearing similar feed backs from those who tried to post on the GW forum.
@tanith: sooo… to get this clear. you want free speech, as long as people don't post an opinion that differs from yours? Are you sure you understand the meaning of the term?
When you say "I've yet to see them being modded."
That's simply because by design you can't see the ones being modded.
It was common sense never to post anything against SGU on the GW forums or you'd never see them approved.
Unless of course your post count is 1000+ and is already know the mods or something.
Darren, I would not moderate at all.
I am strictly against any and all moderation on a closed internet forum (one that is not accessible by Guest or Anonymous accounts and uses an image verification system like captcha to prevent spam.)
If posters go at each others throat, let them, its not your business, you just provide the platform to conduct the discussion. I even accept insults against people, not to mention a SHOW which is an impersonal entity with no feelings.
Having worked in the industry i can say, if you get all worked up because someone insulted your work, grow a thicker skin.
If i would run amok every time someone criticizes my work, i would barely have time to live.
I am not interested in respect that has not been earned, especially if it is in the way of free speech and freedom of expression.
Yes i am a neo-libertarian if it comes to freedom of speech.
Also to make this clear, i am against moderation that will delete posts. I am absolutely fine moving, splitting and merging.
You could even make a sub-forum called "RAGE" where you put all the posts that might be not to your liking.
That you are going with the deleting, shows that you are not interested in freedom of expression, you are only interested in preserving the image of the site so you can keep the endorsement of TPTB.
i have a feeling gateworld will be up for sale soon or canceled soon also. so whats the point?
@ Pot:
What I meant to say, and perhaps didn't clearly express, was that not all negative comments are being modded, as I myself have made negative comments regarding SGU and they've been posted, and I can go into any thread in the SGU subsection and find negative comments. Respectfully expressed negativity is making it through the mods just fine.
Grif, just what is the point to do anything at all babe?
It would seem that double standards are in play here as it is fine for certain people to say as they please but negative posts are removed. That is completely biased and removes credibility.
Darren I understand the trials and tribulations of running a website. I run a message board (Won't name it because it is an other hot topic in some circles) and I have users to message me about being too strict or violating this right or that right and the list goes on and on and on. It's a tricky role to play when you are the Administrator or Moderator of ANY website. You can't make everyone happy, but you can piss everyone off. I find it a delicate balance and weigh in the pro's and con's of any decision.
And yes ultimately it is the decision of the Administration team to do what they feel is best for the website. I feel your pain brother. You are no alone.
Wow – what a fractured fan base. When this much of the fan base is at war with itself it doesn't bode well for the future of Stargate. Disassociate the forums from the main website and just run a news site like trekmovie.com.
I think some people have a rather distorted idea of what 'freedom of speech' actually means. Sure, you can say whatever you want to, but nobody is under any obligation to host it. If your opinions are so important and so fascinating that you think they can support themselves, then by all means go register a domain name, buy some server space, and make your own website. THAT is what freedom of speech means. You have the right to make your own web page (or print a newspaper, or stand on a street corner shouting). The reason you all keep coming back to Gateworld, even those of you throwing around words like 'Nazi' and 'thought-police', is because Gateworld has proven to be a comprehensive resource for the world of Stargate that has appealed to an awful lot of people. You know that THEY have built an audience that YOU would never be able to reach on your own.
(By the way, the real Nazi's engaged in institutional genocide. To suggest that gateworld moderators are Nazi's is a little hyperbolic at best.)
Forcing others to host YOUR point of view is exactly the OPPOSITE of freedom of speech. From what I've seen, the moderators have ben remarkably open to all points of view. (I'm not sure I could have been so even-handed in their place.) Considering a lot of the posts I've read, the ones that get deleted must REALLY be full of bile.
While the internet has been an invaluable tool for allowing opinions to reach a wide audience, it has also had the unfortunate side-effect of exaggerating everybody's view of the importance of their own opinions, especially when made from the safety of an anonymous screen-name.
(Believe me, I understand that what I just said applies to my own internet postings as well.)
If you are going to censor you must apply the same rules to everyone. It's biased to remove a rude post from a non universe fan but allow a rude post from a universe fan. It's biased to remove posts that trash universe but allow posts that trash sg-1 or atlantis. It's biased to remove posts that insult the producers but allow posts that insult fans. It's biased to say that "universe is the best show on tv" is okay but "universe is the worst show period" is not.
"@tanith: sooo… to get this clear. you want free speech, as long as people don't post an opinion that differs from yours? Are you sure you understand the meaning of the term?"
How the hell did you interpret what I said as meaning that? I said that people should not post there opinions about SGU on an article that has nothing to do with SGU. There is no need or reason to talk about SGU on an article about a Stargate video game developer for example.
you are again trying to force your own agenda onto other people and dictate what they can and can not do or say. have you been given the authority to police the forums in this way?
"Forcing others to host YOUR point of view is exactly the OPPOSITE of freedom of speech."
No honey, its not, it would only be the opposite of free speech if i forced them to actually WRITE IT THEMSELVES.
The site/forum has been created for a purpose, the purpose is discussion and argument. If it has been not created with this purpose, just remove the comment section and the forums like suggested.
Either you WANT to host others opinions or you DONT.
Your whole argument is a non-sequitur.
All the fluff in your well worded post does not mean anything, because you fail to recognize what the problem is here.
The problem is not so much moderation, its double standards.
Censorship — the control of the information and ideas circulated within a society — has been a hallmark of dictatorships throughout history. In the 20th Century, censorship was achieved through the examination of books, plays, films, television and radio programs, news reports, and other forms of communication for the purpose of altering or suppressing ideas found to be objectionable or offensive. The rationales for censorship have varied, with some censors targeting material deemed to be indecent or obscene; heretical or blasphemous; or seditious or treasonous. Thus, ideas have been suppressed under the guise of protecting three basic social institutions: the family, the church, and the state.
Not all censorship is equal, nor does all arise from government or external force. People self-censor all the time; such restraint can be part of the price of rational dialogue. The artist Ben Shahn's poster illustration reads: "You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." Silence can indicate a forced assent, or conversely, it can be contemplative, a necessary part of dialogue that rises above the din of quotidian life.
"you are again trying to force your own agenda onto other people and dictate what they can and can not do or say."
No I want common seance. There is no need to talk about your opinion of SGU on a non SGU related article unless your deliberately trying to go off topic or provoke an argument.
seance is where a medium tries to contact someone in the spirit world.
do you mean sense?
I tend to agree with the commentor above who observed that it might be good to have a Criticisms and Contemplations thread for SGU.
As it stands, I wouldn't dare post on the SGU threads for fear of being ripped to shreds. The negative feeling of many fans who are not brave (or foolhardy) like myself have nowhere to go except here in the article comment sections.
I don't see fans as any less polarized for not maintaining a free zone for those who have problems with SGU. I think it just makes those who try to say something critical about the show defensive and hostile as they are berated for expressing their feelings.
The "anti's" seemed to have had a fairly good thing going for the other shows, and while I didn't agree with them at all, found the threads intelligent and entertaining (with a few very notable exceptions). Since I knew it was a thread for only negative opinions I would never dream of going in there and insult or argue, and thus I observed fewer hard feelings overall than what has been happening with SGU.
i usually moan and biatch about all sorts of things, all of them deals with the way SGU mythos is going, never once had I ever attacked another forum user, even if i had reason to, which i haven't.
@ Sylvia:
Believe me when I say it's not just the people with negative feelings regarding SGU that end up feeling berated and defensive. I consider myself a fan of SGU but I avoid the SGU folders like the plague because of the hostile environment created by both sides.
Here's a suggestion for the name of the column: This is Kruvis!
It's taken from the same quote (I think), and it is decidedly Stargate.
Why does every cute little idea have to turn into a fight?!? I'm not a fan of SGU and I would love to see it go or change but can't we put up a good argument without personal remarks? I guess when I just join the online fandom, the forum I was part of was really nice and I got the sense the stargate magic rubs off on people and at my first stargate convention I was complimenting everyones cool shirts and getting that feel, though no one said they like my homemade stargate shirt :( lol. I guess I'm wrong, I guess were not one big happy family….God, this place is just like my high school. Thats right, a 14 year is old is more mature than you guys that are swearing at fellow fans,If you make a good post, people against your argument will have a harder time fighting back. Make a good post or knock it off already.
Lets be honest, this is a fan site. Pure and simple. The mods here I doubt are being paid (anything) to be fair and balanced so really anyone posting on this site should be aware of that fact and accept that at some point a mod that is a bit too for a show is going to come along and slap you around. Its the case with ANY site that is a fan site (or even the offical forums of a show for that matter).
Im not saying that the mods here are complete and utter fanboys with no lives, checking each post to make sure its pro stargate, but posters shouldnt be surprised when it happens. Its just the nature of the beast.
I agree with moderating to some degree. I think there are times when posts should be removed. Most notably when they break the rules that have been very clearly stated for all to read and understand. If you break the rules you shouldn't be surprised if your post is deleted.
I have posted MANY negative comments about SGU and none of them have ever been deleted. Why? Because when I state my point of view I'm careful to keep it focused on SGU and not on one "camp" or the other or on one particular person in the thread. I'm not insulting to people and even if my tone may be sarcastic or angry at times it is never cruel.
If I'm understanding the mods, they are only deleting posts that are over the top insulting, vulgar, or cruel. This is understandable and is standard for all the forums or blogs I've ever gone to. I've actually seen many posts here on GW that are not deleted that have me raising my eyebrow and wondering why. Granted I only post on the articles, I don't venture into the forum section of this site anymore as it lost its appeal for me a long time ago. (won't go into why, but it had nothing to do with censorship. ) But in my opinion I feel the mods are fairly forgiving.
Basically, if you want your post to not be deleted simply state your opinion in a POLITE or at least RESPECTABLE fashion, and don't be insulting. Thats really all they're asking us to do. I don't think its too much to ask.
And for those that keep saying the mods only delete negative messages about SGU, I'm sorry but you're flat out wrong. Pick any of the articles on this site and you will see plenty of them. Making blind accusations will not help make your point, it only makes you look foolish because anybody can go see that your accusation is not true. Make accusations you can back up or don't make them at all.
Anyways, I'm done know. :)
Love Gateworld and love this column. Name is great – also an homage to Jack! I think Gateworld is very open and allows many voices – it's fun when it gets *a little* heated but best when kept civil.
Please don't get tired – we love you (well I do :)
"The avid podcast fan from Pegasus Galaxy"
There are 4 problems what what you posted:
1. Nobody ever said "all negative comments are deleted", you invented this just to argue.
2. You said: "I don't venture into the forum section of this site anymore", then why are you commenting on the subject? You simply lack the information needed to make judgement on the issue.
3. In one hand you said "state your opinion in a POLITE or at least RESPECTABLE fashion", and then right after that you started calling people foolish, that's not really respectable is it.
4. To me the guy who talks about about a place he doesn't even go to, and equates "see plenty of them" with "blind accusations (it must have never happened)" is way more foolish. That's like saying you see a lot of fish in the sea so fishermans don't exist.
Look, if you want to make a point, do some research on the subject before posting, you want to promote polite and respect, then don't start calling people foolish. It's counter productive.
Don't reply anymore at TokTanith's messages. It's totally clear that he or she just trying to make you angry by deliberately misinterpret everything you write.
Thumbs up!
The populist authoritarianism that is the downside of political correctness means that anyone, sometimes it seems like everyone, can proclaim their grief and have it acknowledged. The victim culture, every sufferer grasping for their own Holocaust, ensures that anyone who feels offended can call for moderation, for dilution, and in the end, as is all too often the case, for censorship. And censorship, that by-product of fear – stemming as it does not from some positive agenda, but from the desire to escape our own terrors and superstitions by imposing them on others – must surely be resisted. ~Jonathon Green
@johnny b
please explain how politely posing a query about the wrong use of a word can be seen as misinterpretation.
Sorry I copied the wrong name(s), it was meant to be junebug and jaffa orange
I'd like to commend GateWorld on your article addressing the negativity issue that's gotten way out of hand. Any kind of criticism can be said respectfully, and still make a good point, but when it starts getting personal with name-calling, this forum has lost its purpose.
I agree with one post that said, "If you don't like the show (SGU), don't watch it!" Move on, and watch something else. Constant moaning, groaning, and griping in such vile language about a show, and attacks on others, is counterproductive to the purpose of any forum. After a while, people are going to start ignoring every post you make.
When offering feedback, be specific and use specific examples from the show that you're referring to – not vague terms that most people don't understand. Check your emotions at the door before offering any comment! Harsh negative emotions clouds one's judgment, making their feedback perceived to be more of a personal attack rather than of being constructive about something that you'd like to see changed. Even when there are things that people don't like about SGU, there are also some equally good things worthy of comment from the same person. Just because I personally enjoy SG1 better than SGU, I still enjoy watching SGU. The story arcs are still brilliantly written, and SGU has excellent actors.
In summary, use good common sense by respecting those whose opinions may differ from yours, and this will be a great forum for everyone who chooses to use it.
Lots of words but all hot air, because you missed the single biggest cause of the problem around here: People aren't doing what they claim they believe in.
As a result, a lot of people feel like they are not being treated fairly.
For example, you started your post with "criticism can be said respectfully", and how wrong it is to "getting personal", but then you WENT STRAIGHT AHEAD and label a vague group of Anti-SGU camp "moaning, groaning, and griping".
I don't see how respectful or productive that is.
What happened next is even better, you went on and post 200 words to judge the negative commenters, teaching them to be specific and use examples when offering feedback.
Ok sounds fair, but then what did you do? You went on to describe SGU as "The story arcs are still brilliantly written, and SGU has excellent actors." That's it. 252 words in your post, only 12 is used on feedback.
So where is the specifics and examples in your feedback? What happened to your "When offering feedback, be specific and use specific examples from the show that you're referring to – not vague terms that most people don't understand."? How is your feedback not an exact mirror image of "the story sucks, the actors sucks"?
See, this is exactly where the current single biggest problem of GW is:
Pro-SGU camp too busy teaching ***** they can't follow themselves.
If you look at the last 10 GW articles, look at all the comments, chop off the 5% extreme cases from both ends, look at what is left, then compare the posts between both camps, two things become clear:
1. Anti-SGU camp focus on the show and can describe the specific problems of the show in extreme details.
2. Pro-SGU camp focus on the Anti-SGU camp and focus on judging them.
As demonstrated by NavyChief above, the most popular response from the Pro-SGU camp, in general, is point finger to the 5% extreme Anti-SGU cases (that they somehow also forgot, exists in both camp, even the TPTB/Actors), then judged the other 95% together with it. While pretending to be respectful, productive and fair.
This is where the real problem is.
This is what ignited all those heated arguments.
This is what kept fueling them.
If the Pro-SGU camp wants to talk about respect and being productive, this ""I am better than you so I am allowed to do the thing you can't"" and ""I don't have to ignore anything, but you should."" attitude needs to go. Starts judging the show instead of judging people.
Where are all these personal attacks and vile language and why again do posters like yourself constantly accuse those who dislike the show of lacking respect. Terms such as crap and rubbish are not vile language and once again I fail to see any vile or personal attacks from those who dislike SGU. The only personal attacks I have seen here are from pro SGU fans telling others to get a life and to go away. So I'm getting tired of these mindless accusations. There seems to be one rule for those who like SGU and another for those who don't like it. Why is it ok for Brian Smith to be condesending and rude to fans, or for his mother to make sweeping derogatory comments about those who dislike the show. Those who have criticised SGU have given their reasons why they don't like the show and given them in a well thought out and respectful way. There have been a FEW on BOTH sides who have crossed over into slightly disrespectful posting. I don't see any mindless negative posting against SGU, this thread asked for people to discuss the issues they feel are on GW and that is EXACTLY what they are doing, giving their opinion and part of that issue is how the criticism of SGU has been handled. All I've seen is over defensive posters attacking others who don't share their like of SGU. No one is mindlessly posting in SGU threads over and over. The debates here on GW home page have been in reponse to specific articles, ie Brian Smith telling fans what they should like, DVD sales and various other topics. But each of these topics tend to get derailed and go off topic, not because of posters giving their opinon of SGU but other posters spending more time discussing fans than the topic at hand.
@Pot / @blackhawlk
I could not agree more. There are plenty of folks praising the show without giving any solid reasons or logic to back up their claims.
They then use the same posts as a springboard to have a dig at posters that do not necessarily agree with their viewpoint.
These thinly veiled attacks are a huge part of the problem but they seem to escape moderation at all times. Where is the fairness and balance in that?
Okay, you want me as an SGU fan to list the reasons why I like SGU.
I just want to say that I'm an SG1 fan (didn't care much for SGA) as well and i don't what you to think that I'm not.
The characters
One thing that I love about the show is the characters. It is necessary for a character driven show to have great characters that I find truly interesting, and in my opinion SGU has succeded with flying colors. I want to know more about Rush's motives, Greer's past, Camile and Sharon's relationship, etc.
The acting
Brilliant actors like Robert Carlyle, Ming-Na, Louis Ferreira, and David Blue really brings the characters to life and without them the show would be nothing. This is where SGU is most like SG1/SGA. The two shows all had fantastic actors and SGU is no different in that area.
The Writing
Sometimes in SG1/SGA it felt like the writers were underestimating my intelligence with their predictable writing. However SGU has changed some of that. The ending of Time is a great example of more intelligent writing where the writer doesn't underestimate the intelligence of me as a viewer.
I don't what else you want me to say. If this isn't enough, please list the reasons why you love SG1/SGA and let's see if they are more detailed than this.
When was Brian J Smith ever condescending to fans?
@sgfan: current divide between the fans over SGU still isn't as bad as Daniel/Jonas wars some 8 years ago. Both the show and its fandom survived them just fine, I don't see any reason why this time things would be different.
IMO the forum is moderated well. The Mods do a commendable job and in my experience they are fair and treat everyone equally. Sure, sometimes posts that weren't breaking any forum rules get caught up in the massive post deletions in the threads that became nothing more than places to insult and attack each other, but I don't think it's such a big deal. If that's the case, you can always repost. The Mods are just human beings after all and therefore allowed to make mistakes. They are also always willing to explain their decision and even have another Mod look into the matter, so I don't know what else could be done.
Having said that, I agree with the other posters that creating Critique thread for SGU could do a lot of good for clearing the atmosphere in the entire forum. I understand why it wasn't done, but perhaps we, regular fans/posters, aren't quite as mature as Darren & Co hoped…
One more thing: Darren and David have always been very supportive and defensive of all 3 shows, so I don't understand why sudden accusations of the site becoming TPTB mouthpiece. Remember how divided the fandom became over the last 2 seasons of SG-1? A lot of fans didn't like it, a lot of fans left, D&D kept saying how awesome those seasons were. Not all SG-1 fans liked SGA, but they did. From what I've heard, the last 1-2 seasons of SGA were met with a lot of negativity and criticism from many fans, but Darren and David loved them. And now they enjoy SGU. It seems to me they are pretty consistent with their love for all 3 shows and their behavior. What's wrong with being a fan of all 3 Stargate incarnations? There are fans just like them on the forum, loving everything TPTB produced, and they get praise for their eternal optimism/love for the franchise (for the record, I think it's great), but apparently Darren and David are held to different standards…why? For my part, I disagree with them most of the time – SGU is the first thing in the franchise I've truly enjoyed since season 8 of SG-1 ended – but I also recognise that thanks to their enthusiasm I have a place where I can voice my concerns and discuss them with like-minded people. Whether you like it or not, GW is still The Site to go to to get the latest news and the best site for everything SG-related; GW forum is still the biggest and most diverse one out there, and this is thanks to Darren, David and the very attitude they are so criticized for.
Uff, I'm done. J
What I tried to get across in my last posts was for comments to be kept on topic and not have anti SGU comments in places where there are no reason to have them. I personally don't see the need to post what you don't like about SGU on an article about Stargate video game developers for example (since there is no connection between the two). That was all I was trying to say but somehow was interpreted as me trying to get my agenda across. I don't get how someone can make that conclusion out of me simply asking to stay on topic on other articles.
Welcome to the Internet douchebaggery, Gateworld. There are so much people which crave so much for attention and desire to be heard they won't care for the quality of the message they're trying to get across. I could only wish you good luck on this one, because it's not something this resource experiences. It's like the whole Net has god completely insane lately – perhaps because of how many people are able to easily access it. Keep up the good work.
1. I never said people were saying ALL negative posts I said they were saying ONLY the negative posts. I didn't invent anything.
2. I was stating my opinion for the articles, I was being fair in stating that I no longer go to the forums so I can't speak for them. So yes, I can make a judgment based on the articles just not on the forums.
3. I never called anybody foolish, I said making accusations that can't be backed make them LOOK foolish. Not that you actually are. Please do not put words in my mouth.
Again my posts was regarding the articles, which I thought I had made clear, maybe I didn't and for that I apologize.
Dear Darren,
I have your
"… place where respect wins the day, friendly and fun…[]…where members of the community are held to the most basic standards of decency and dignity."
right here, on your own Gateworld forums:
A moderator calling me a rat for discussing SGUs ratings.
Real classy.
There is currently a good example for the point blackhawlk, Pot and TokTanith is trying to make in a thread in the gateworld forum.
AdamTM wrote there that he thinks that SGU RATINGS suck and he gave good reasons for his opinion. He was also on topic.
He got among others the following reactions:
From Skydiver (a MODERATOR!!!):
"Sometimes, when a person in a thread doesn't want to discuss as much as lecture, berate and snark, the best thing to do is to put the person on ignore.
It's kinda like, if you have mice chewing their way into your kitchen to eat the dog food….put up the food so the mice will get bored and go away."
From EvilSpaceAlien:
"It's just that some people have already made up their minds about SGU and therefore it is a waste of time to argue with those people when they are just posting something bad about SGU for the sake of bashing."
That doesn't sound RESPECTFUL in my opinion. They accused him of mindless bashing and snarking and a MODERATOR even said that she hope he goes away. And he didn't even criticize SGU itself! He only said that he thinks that SGU's "RATINGS" are bad. So why was he insulted and why was a MODERATOR contributing to it?
That is the double standard on the gateworld forum. Bashing SGU critics is ok (even moderators do it), and the other way around it is a huge crime and comments get censored.
@ adamtm
I didn't see your comment before posting mine. ;-)
I posted for the most part happily on GW for over 4 years, got to over 10,000 posts but found the site changed in appearance and in Moderation around 2007/8.
I could no longer express my personal opinions on the direction of Stargate, GW or anything unless it was wrapped up in a big happy bow of contentment.
If that was a misconception it was one the Mods on GW were happy to keep alive.
GW mean to me now.
Mods who are not the least bit impartial. Posters who often think critic is trolling. People in general who think you have to love SGU or leave the room.
btw I only came by today to see how MGMs travels into bankruptcy were hitting fans of SG. I still care about the actual franchise, well the good parts. ;)
Don't really check the forums much myself but after reading the posts on that topic would say that adamtm has a point, A moderator really should act better.
As to the 'Give them a critique thread', we tried that. Remember the anti s4 and 5 threads? They weren't pretty places. Because some of the participants weren't content to critique and discuss, all they wanted to do was bash.
It was a very unpleasant place to be.
Individually, some posters were fine. They said thier peace, commiserated, chatted and had fun. Then others seemed to revel in hating the show. They seemed to take great joy in being disappointed for a whole hour. Some would take one scene, take it out of context and use that 10 seconds as proof that the whole 43 minutes were a waste and disgrace and – in the theme of some of the drama in the posts – the cause of all that was wrong in the world.
Giving them a critique thread won't work. We have three years of 'proof' that the idea just won't work.
It was a good idea, and we tried it, and it doesn't work.
My opinion is if the site will allow posts like "OMG Daniel Jackson is the best character and I love him" then they should allow "OMG Chloe is the suckiest chick in sci-fi and I hate her". Some mods will tell you that negative comments are fine but they should be constructive. So the positive ones can be emotional and "unfounded" but the negative ones have to fit someone else's opinion of well thought out and constructive. That is my problem with the whole situation. Yes, respect is needed but if all you are will to allow is fanlove then what is the point?
The cliche 'it's not what you say but how you say it' is a cliche for a reason.
And I have noticed, through the past 10+ years of the fandom, moderating for a good chunk of that time, the way people express themselves has changed.
What used to be the norm was respectful posts. Sometimes heated, sure. But generally respectful.
But as the fandom has matured and changed, so have the fans. And the tone, over the years, has gotten meaner and meaner.
People didn't used to, as a norm, call each other idiots or stupid in the course of debating/disagreeing. now they do.
And that is what is behind the posts that get deleted. Not what the opinion is, but who's calling who a name, or who's declaring that 'if you can't see that then you're stupid' 'if you can't see this than you're an idiot'.
THAT'S what we mod. The name calling and nasty attitude.
And we seem to have a lot of members that don't join to share their love of a show, or to find out a plot twist or to discuss, we have a lot of members that join and their first and often only posts are 'omg, what a waste of an hour!!!!!!!'
What value is that? If you don't like a tv show, why take the time to find and join a forum just to say that it's horrible? Especially when many of these posts are people that claim to have never seen any other show in the franchise, are totally new members to the fandom, new viewers, and they devote the time to join just to declare it offal and hateful and disgusting and a waste?
I have noticed, that a lot of the people that cry censorship the loudest are the ones that express themselves in the least respectful way possible. They are the ones that call others names. They are the ones that abuse other verbally.
What they seem to want is the freedom to call others names, to lecture and to disrespect any they disagree with.
That kind of disrespect for each other is very much at the root of any atmosphere issues that people see.
@psw Your post was interesting and if that sort of behavior is indeed being allowed in the forums as well as being participated in by the moderators I may have to stand corrected in my opinion. You can't very well call people on breaking the rules if you're doing it yourself. As I stated in my post a ways back my perception is only from the discussions in the articles, which from what I can see the mods have been reasonably fair to all sides.
But you're post is interesting and a little worrisome and I hope the mods are paying attention.
Denise is skydiver, the mod who instulted AdamTM by calling him a rat chewing through the kitchen to eat the dog food.
That means he realized he got caught and is now posting here just to try cover his own a**.
And since his post is again, based on double standards, his words all collapsed on themselves:
[[And I have noticed, through the past 10+ years of the fandom, moderating for a good chunk of that time, the way people express themselves has changed.
But as the fandom has matured and changed, so have the fans. And the tone, over the years, has gotten meaner and meaner.]]
If the fan really got "meaner and meaner", then So did TPTB/Actors/Mods.
We've already pointed out the real problem on GW is the double standard, and you still post this kind of one sided argument? Who are you trying to fool here?
[[People didn't used to, as a norm, call each other idiots or stupid in the course of debating/disagreeing. now they do.
THAT'S what we mod. The name calling and nasty attitude.]]
What you posted don't make any sense, because:
1. TPTB/Actors/Mods didn't insult members either, now they do.
2. It is clearly ok to bash SG1/SGA+Fans on GW but not ok to bash SGU+Fans.
3. The name calling and nasty attitude started right from the top from TPTB/Actors/Mods and can be seen throughout the site.
[[And we seem to have a lot of members that don't join to share their love of a show, or to find out a plot twist or to discuss, we have a lot of members that join and their first and often only posts are 'omg, what a waste of an hour!!!!!!!'
What value is that? If you don't like a tv show, why take the time to find and join a forum just to say that it's horrible? Especially when many of these posts are people that claim to have never seen any other show in the franchise, are totally new members to the fandom, new viewers, and they devote the time to join just to declare it offal and hateful and disgusting and a waste?]]
Again, another paragraph based on double standard.
What value is there to blindly praise a show and mislead others into watching something that is mediocre?
Just in case you forgot Denise, here is what GW stands for according to Darren Summer:
— 1) We want to be a place where free expression wins the day, where fans of all stripes and points of view can share their opinions and have meaningful conversations.
— 2) We want to be a place where respect wins the day, friendly and fun to visit, where members of the community are held to the most basic standards of decency and dignity.
So you see, the excuses you posted simply contradicts what Darren posted.
If you only believe in "free expression" when there is value to you, Why are you still a mod?
It all comes down to how GW wants to position itself.
If GW wants to be the "yes man" to Syfy then simply put up a large sign in big red letter that reads "Don't bash SGU" and be done with it.
Those who don't like SGU will get the message and go else where.
Don't put up a sign that reads "We believe in respect and free expression", then act the total opposite.
[[I have noticed, that a lot of the people that cry censorship the loudest are the ones that express themselves in the least respectful way possible. They are the ones that call others names. They are the ones that abuse other verbally.]]
I've also noticed, a lot of people that cry "I am fair" the loudest are the ones that aren't.
[[What they seem to want is the freedom to call others names, to lecture and to disrespect any they disagree with.
That kind of disrespect for each other is very much at the root of any atmosphere issues that people see.]]
Wrong, the real problem is the double standards, the other problems are just natural extensions from them.
Your so called "This kind of disrespect" started all the way from TPTB/Actors/Mods. But apparently you seem to be blind to it, evidently you are even part of it.
Why are we talking about schematics?
How does claiming people "look" foolish support your "state your opinion in a POLITE or at least RESPECTABLE fashion" believe system?
Adding the word "LOOK" in front of an insult is still not polite. Don't promote polite and respect if you don't understand this simple concept.
It doesn't change anything, see, if I add "look" infront of what I posted it become:
"What you said is like saying you see a lot of fish in the sea so fishermans don't exist. And that made you LOOK more foolish."
Didn't change a thing, the point still stands.
@ Denise
"What they seem to want is the freedom to call others names, to lecture and to disrespect any they disagree with."
They only don't want to have a double standard. SGU "lovers" HAVE the freedom to lecture and disrespect SGU "haters". They only risk censorship if they call others names. Anything else is allowed.
The moderators should either delete ALL disrespectful comments or none at all. The rules should be the same for everyone.
A wise man once said that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
The mods have let their power corrupt their judgement as they now see themselves as judge jury and executioner
Personally I think that the folks over at sgusucks.com have got the balance spot on. That is a place where anybody can have their say without fear of censorship and enjoy an open and honest debate. The pro sgu brigade do not frequent there very often because they can not substantiate the unfounded claims that they make. Moreover, they can not hide from the reality of the situation which is the fact that the show has fallen well short of expectations and has failed to be what it was promoted as.
Hi Denise,
first of all, we all know who you are, due to the fact that a comment got modded telling us.
Second, your stance of "there is no point in discussing with people that have made up their mind and you better ignore them" is fine, after all you made up your mind to ignore the people that have made up their mind.
Also i'm pretty sure you would strictly adhere to your policy to ignore people that don't have made up their mind, since you are so passionate about it….
wait…i remember something. oh right, this:
"We don't need to see evil Ancients because we have seen them before (not just in the Ori). Agree or don't agree, my position isn't changin'."
Further down the post you actually discuss this position with Deevil, also you frequently discuss with Deevil.
Why is that? Deevil has already made up his/her/its mind, ITS POINTLESS!
Nah, you see, fandom hasn't changed "Denise", it just started to disagree with you, and you just don't like people disagreeing with you.
@ Skydiver
"I didn't call anyone a troll, however as ESA said, if there's someone that's already made up their mind, and have steadfastly decided 'i'm right, the rest of the world is wrong', it's a waste of time to even talk to them. Debating is a waste, because no matter what you say, 'they're right, you're wrong, and if you can't see that then you're blind.'
Am i saying that everyone needs to have the same opinion? No. But when the 'i'm right, you're wrong' mindset is in play, those that have the opinion have no respect for anyone else, so why continue to give them a soapbox to lecture you from?
Don't engage and let them lecture themselves."
People who like SGU are often also thinking that they are right, the others wrong. And they usually also don't change their mind because someone has another opinion. They will also defend their position, when someone disagree with them and sometimes they will be disrespectful when they do this.
So where is the difference between both sides? I really don't see it!
I can understand when comments using vulgare language are moderated to replace the bad language with *****. Everything else should stay as it is – just because the mod doesn't like your opinion, it doesn't mean your opinion is wrong!
I remember when I tried to post my opinion of SGU at the very beginning after SGA was cancelled – and it got deleted EVERY TIME. I just copied and pasted it again. And again. And again. And again. Trying to see who has more patience and endurance – me or the censoring mod! Interesting experience. Since then, I don't have a high opinion of the article mods. I won't even mention the forum mods.
Pot: Your original comment has been approved. In response to those that followed, be aware that I live in GMT (Eastern time + 5 hours) and am not beholden to your time table for approving queued posts.
"Darren is asleep" does not equal "GateWorld censors."
katikatnik: That your post was moderated and you chose to continue to copy-paste repost it, again and again, as a battle of wills with the moderator, is exactly the problem. You assume in this action that the problem lies solely with the moderator being too strict, and not with the content of your post.
Do you really not see the problem here?
The moderators are charged with the unenviable and thankless task of making a thousand little judgment calls per day. They get to decide what crosses the line of the rules you agreed to follow when you signed up. So you deliberately thumb your nose at them, and expect that their response will be — what? — to give in and admit that you were right all along? Your actions reveal that you either don't think you need to follow those rules, or you don't think the moderators get to decide what should be moderated.
If not them … who?
"If not them … who?"
NOBODY, posts stay, the end.
Seriously, are you suggesting that people are too dumb to ignore an ad-hominem or that they will burst into tears because i said that SGU sucks?
Do we REALLY need a care-bear system where anyone can run to their mommy (mod) and whine that someone else said something bad that hurt him.
Or even mods decide by themselves what is "disrespectful"?
You are giving those people an awful lot of power, think about it.
Cmon, we are mostly adults here, we can take a bit of "verbal abuse". This is not kindergarden, seriously.
I've never had an issue with censorship. And I haven't been posting that long, so I'm still a probie and my stuff eventually makes it through. I think it has to do with the fact I have yet to say anything purposefully unkind. I have seen every single point of view expressed so I do not know who is talking about being censored. And btw, I don't think you can criticize for gateworld wanted the support of tptb. I love gateworld and want it to last as long as possible. I don't understand why every single thread has to be repleat with negativity. Some people seem to have serious issues with gateworld… you chose to post here! Exercise your rights as a consumer if you're that upset.
Darren, all the power to you. I think you do an admirable job trying to clean up the threads and forums. I know I couldn't do it.
@Darren: I expressed my opinion in a very serious fashion, without insults, I listed my reasons, as I ALWAYS do – and it got deleted! Why? I never found out. I never lower myself to name calling and when I say something, I always explain why. And nevertheless, you still deleted my comment. This is your web, but if you delete something of mine off it even though I didn't break ANY rules, I WILL take offence! As I said, it's your web and you can do whatever you want with it, but please, stop pretending that you're being fair when many of us experienced the mods' fairness – or the lack of it – first hand.
I remember posting in the SGU ratings prediction trend where I compared SGU's rating to SGA's, I listed tables and numbers – and the mod deleted it saying that people should stop dragging SGA into it. How is that any fair. I was comparing ratings to ratings in a ratings tread! But of course, those ratings didn't look any good for SGU so I was deleted. How… fair. Not.
Well, as to the modding on this site, I don't think it's over the top or in any way biased (as much as it is humanly possible to be unbiased). I got on moderation myself, for my first post (which, I believe, was for a few swearwords), got on with posting and got off moderation without any fuss from either side (mine or the mods' ;o)).
As for SGU bashing: I agree with the people that don't see any harm in an SGU vent thread. Label it clearly as "SGU vent" or "SGU bash" so that people don't accidentally end up there wanting to "share the love" of SGU and it should be fine. "Haters" and even "critics" of SGU get advised regularly to just not watch SGU (and boy, if all of those ever stop watching entirely, are supporters going to love the new rating numbers?). So it shouldn't be too difficult to keep out of a clearly labeled vent thread, should it?
What's really interesting, though, is this:
"If you don't like a tv show, why take the time to find and join a forum just to say that it's horrible? Especially when many of these posts are people that claim to have never seen any other show in the franchise, are totally new members to the fandom, new viewers, and they devote the time to join just to declare it offal and hateful and disgusting and a waste?"
That's the new audiences TPTB wanted to draw in, right? Feeling so passionately about a show they know almost nothing about and *still* feel they should warn others off of it. Now if *they* don't even give anyone but me and Denise a think, state of things is really not that rosy with the franchise in general :o(. For all that "haters" and "critics" get dismissed as "disgruntled SG1/SGA fans", the argument falls flat with these new guys. And still, they are not all love for SGU? And even daring to post their opinion online? Harsh.
I have to agree with some of the previous posters. I wouldn't have a problem with moderation – if it went both ways: not just towards the "antis" but also towards the "pros". Why is it okay when the pros call the antis "entitled haters" and similar things? Why is it okay for the pros to tell the antis, all of them not just those who express themselves in a hateful fashion, to go away? Why aren't the same rules applied to them? I would be quite curious to hear the answers…
I have to defend Darren here. I look at his ratings for SGU, compare it to his ratings for SG-1 and SGA. When I mean ratings I mean ther GW 4 star system to how good or bad an episode was. Well I also have listened to his podcasts, and you can tell even Darren thinks SGU is not superior to prior Stargate since not one ep of SGU has gotten 4 Stars. SGA had like 3 of them by their first season's first half. So I can see that he is not being biased towards SGU just because it is a new show or someone like BW telling him to keep the negativity to a low.
The problem with the comment sections and the GW forum is not the negativity but the defenders of SGU that have to attack back or deliberatly use SG-1 and SGA as a bashing point just to get even with these classic SG fans. I think a lot of folks know who these people are. They add to a very small fire a Truck load of Gasoline.
I have never seen so much negativity for a show. Maybe the producers need to rethink SGU's direction.
I agree. For an example. You bash SGU to make SG-1 or SGA look better and it gets removed. Someone bashes SGA or SG-1 to make SGU look better and it stays. This is coming from a civil non-attacking kinda post. It just irks me. All I ask is to treat both sides fair. Darren does not really moderate the forums, but maybe he should more or at least teach his mods to be less biased.
I just read that Skydiver post, AdamTM might of been a little assertive but he was not breaking rules, and well Skydiver should of approached it nicer.
There is a lot of apples to oranges going on. There is a lot of animosity between those that wanted SGA to continue, and those that openly and vocally disliked it and wanted it to end.
As to the modding, at any point in time, if a person disagrees with a mod's actions, they can appeal those decisions to the other mods. I have no issue with someone saying 'I don't like what this person did, look into it for me'.
Contrary to what I'm sure is popular belief, there is no absolute dictatorship amongst the mods. If one of us disagrees with what another has done, we'll say so.
When there is one or two people with an issue about the modding then it is likely just a personal thing. When you have over a dozen plus people complaining, well then maybe things need to be carefully looked at.
As per the negativity. I find it, that the SGU bullies I guess you would call them add more to the fire. They have this belief that SGU is the solution to past Stargate flaws, when it is really an opinion and not true.
I'm sorry but the SGA fans got…. well lets use the F word here, and you know what that word is. That movie should of happened by now, and if people don't respect those fans from being upset they are just as wrong as the people trolling the forum with the negativity towards SGU.
It truly grows tiredsome from the "Defenders of the Universe". to tell people to "get over it" or "if you don't like it stop watching", and my favorite "The producers don't owe you anything".
I'm just going to say, that I predicted this was going to happen as soon as SGA was cancelled and SGU greenlighted. Here we are a year later and things are the same if not even worse. It is not easy since SGU is not everyone's cup of tea.
*What value is there to blindly praise a show and mislead others into watching something that is mediocre?*
No where is it said that people must blindly praise a show. Nor are they directed to mislead others. If you don't like something about the show, fine, don't like it. That dislike just has to be expressed with respect.
SGU SUCKS is not only not respectful, it's not correct….and don't go snipping this part off when you quote this…I THINK SGU SUCKS is a correct way to phrase it. Your opinion is that it sucks. But you, any singular you cannot declare that something is bad or wrong or sucky because opinion is subjective and it varies from person to person.
Any singular person can no more empirically declare that SGU Sucks than they can to declare 'Vanilla Ice Cream Sucks'. No, it doesn't. YOU just don't like it.
Just because one person holds an opinion does not make that opinion fact.
That's where a lot of the issues stem from. One person holds an opinion. In his/her mind that opinion is empirical fact and how DARE anyone not agree with him/her. We then go from a respectful exchange of ideas to one person steadfastly posting to 'educate' or 'convince' everyone that his/her opinion is the only right one to hold.
And we would have a lot less arguments started if people just remembered to only speak for themselves, not for the world at large.
I'm beginning to wish I had never voiced my opinion here because I am discovering people will twist it to say whatever it is they want it to say and steadfastly ignore what my intended meaning was. Simply for the sake of having a reason to fight…..not debate…fight, there is a difference between the two.
So that being said, I'm going to briefly say this then I'm not commenting to this thread again. In my experience on the ARTICLES the mods have appeared to be fair. I did read an interesting post that makes me wonder if the double standard people are worried about does indeed exist on the forums and I hope the mods are taking that into consideration. I have been/am a on mod of various groups, (nothing as big as this) and I know the work that goes into it, it's not easy. But also, as a mod I am held to a higher standard as a poster, my posts had to be extra careful because I am setting an example for the list. Basically, if I do it then the list thinks it was okay and does it to. This might be something the mods want to take into consideration.
@Denise: How is "SGU SUCKS" different from "SGU ROCKS", based on your response? How is it okay for delete the former and leave the latter? It is an opinion of a single person, the one just like the other.
wow, sorry for the back and forth tenses in my last post. oi!
Though to be fair
"SGU ROCKS" = Those who like SGU may agree and those who dislike SGU really shouldn't care.
"SGU SUCKS" = Those who like SGU may get pissed since your insulting a show they like and those who dislike SGU may agree and say more hateful things which can lead to an argument.
No offense but both of those would be arrogant, annoying, trollish, and flame baiting, imo.
I would like at least to see a couple of sentences to why something "rocks" or "sucks".
Aha, so the wording is the same (which was the point Denise was trying to make with the whole "I THINK SGU SUCKS is a correct way to phrase it.") but it's only ok if it's positive. Aha. Gotcha. I stand corrected now.
@ScoobyDoo Aye I agree if someone just posted "SGU ROCK" and nothing else it would be considered spam imo. But contained within a sentence it is highly unlikely that saying SGU rocks would offend anyone whereas saying SGU sucks could.
'SGU SUCKS' could be easily reworded to 'I personally dislike SGU' or 'SGU is not for me' so I don't personally see the issue.
The whole point is that Denise, who obviously is a mod, said: "But you, any singular you cannot declare that something is bad or wrong or sucky because opinion is subjective and it varies from person to person." But a singular person can declare that something is great or good or that it rocks despite the fact that an opinion is subjective and it varies from person to person. Double standards. Negative opinion needs elaboration and the emphasis that it's that singular person's opinion. Positive opinion can stand alone without any elaboration. Why?
>> Words like "crap" and "stupid" and "idiot" aren't respectful to anyone
That's right, why not someone forward this to Joseph Mallozzi so he'll learn not to call SG fans "idiots" ( <= accurate quote) for mocking one of SGU's characters (not the actor, the character).
surely you should have said
"SGU SUCKS" = Those who like SGU really shouldn't care as this would be more balanced and impartial.
Why should those that dislike the show not really care about what the show lovers think when in your oppinion those that love the show would get pissed at what the dislikers think while the dislikers would say more hateful things and start an argument.
This gives the impression that all the arguments are started by those who do not like the show whilst the folks that do are innocent victims which is clearly not the case at all.
Again, double standards are at play and fairness only applies if it suits your agenda.
"We then go from a respectful exchange of ideas to one person steadfastly posting to 'educate' or 'convince' everyone that his/her opinion is the only right one to hold."
Yes, especially trying to tell people that mature internet users can't deduce that "SGU sucks" is probably just the opinion of the one posting the statement. *shakes head* Really, you are digging yourself in there, people around here are generally not five or younger, I believe.
So while "I think SGU sucks" may show more awareness of the initial poster than "SGU sucks", it's informational value is not much different from "SGU sucks", "SGU rocks" or "I think SGU rocks". It's telling us the opinion of one single poster. Thanks for telling us what we already knew.
In linguistic terms: It's not just the sender that has responsibility for a message, it's also the one who receives it (and in this case just *waits* to pounce on the wording, of all things…).
you could also have quite easily reworded it to "I personally like SGU" or "SGU is the show for me"
so there is the issue.
My $.02
I've been a member on GW for five years now, and though I haven't agreed with every decision the mods and Darren choose to make, I do believe they are and have been doing a excellent job.
As for all the hate…er, criticism, being directed towards Denise, I'd suggest everyone just take a chill pill. She's not perfect, because you cannot be perfect for everyone (see Lincoln quote). She's doing the best she can on a path she believes is correct. Darren, and the large majority of members (which, mind you, is much greater than the vocal minority), believes she is on the correct path as well. And sometimes, when she takes a step off the path, Darren and the other mods are here to correct that mistake.
Gateworld's been around for a long while now, and what the mods have been doing has seemed to work. aka: If it ain't broke, then don't fix it. (And even if you do 'fix' it, what you thought fixed it might turn out to be a horrible failure (see New Coke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_coke .))
"SGU SUCKS is not only not respectful, it's not correct….and don't go snipping this part off when you quote this…I THINK SGU SUCKS is a correct way to phrase it. Your opinion is that it sucks. But you, any singular you cannot declare that something is bad or wrong or sucky because opinion is subjective and it varies from person to person."
As long as someone isn't claiming to speak for "all Stargate fans" or "all SG1 and SGA fans" or is using an unspecific "we", he is only speaking for himself. I don't see the need to always write "I think" or "in my opinion".
And every opinion is subjective, not only the negative ones. Positive opinions are also not "facts".
@Col Sharp
You are right no one is perfect. SGU has created this division of Fandom, much worse in the past like when RDA left SG-1 or MD left.
I just hope the producers are not happy with how SGU is well imo, tearing up the fandom.
Oops that was MS for Michael Shanks, but you get my drift. :p
Jack not like his Jello this time around?
Right away there's a comment here about people "mindlessly" insulting the show. I've seen some very long and reasoned criticisms written here thank you. Tanith uses the example of posts on the game bankruptcy news article attracting anti SGU postings and is castigated here for it. And I see the Darren needs sleep clause appeared overnight. All indicative of the instant and anonymous internet.
There's a Flickr group where the moderator rejects photos for extremely insignificant reasons. At the start he outlays the conditions for posting, as does Gateworld. However taking it one step further he runs a page every month showing the rejected photos and their reason for rejection. I wonder if any rejected poster here would accede to those sort of circumstances? He of course holds the final card: If you dispute the reason for rejection and want to argue about it you're blocked. However the rules here are more open to interpretation being more subjective.
Now without getting off on a tangent (and I've cut a few paragraphs written earlier) the question is, what would you do different? I don't even look at the forums because like all forums they always end up as a free-for-all often boiling down to an internal argument between 2 posters. So concerning the news comments I would allow only 2 posts per name i.e. one rebuttal only. Or just ban all direct references to another poster all-together. This section of Gateworld is for comments on a news item, not a chat room.
However, much of the news is now going to be about just what a wonderful successful show SGU is. And much of that continues to be fueled by the studio and network promotional machine. Given the large number of people that just want someone to scream at for destroying Atlantis it should come as no surprise that Gateworld will continue to attract a steady stream of comments that aren't constructed to slavishly agree with the professional PR and spin put on the show.
And when the celebrities try their own hand of PR from their bully pulpit they need to be reeled in and reminded the internet is a two way street now. A couple of these types have only served as lightning rods for those not, shall we say, appreciative of the "new direction". But as one-sided as they are, it is news and should be communicated thru a fan site. Maybe the comments should just be closed when it involves people on the SGU payroll with their apparently fragile egos. And readers reminded that they derive their income from promoting the show.
Lastly I think a Friday free-for-all would probably cool down or divert some of the more reactionary posts from the genuine news articles. Opposition to SGU isn't going to go away and visiting many other sites it's not being fueled by just a couple of people as some of the fanboys want to believe. So there's three suggestions at least. So Darren you're trapped just like Jack, doomed to re-live Friday over and over for the foreseeable future.
"SGU SUCKS is not only not respectful, it's not correct….and don't go snipping this part off when you quote this…I THINK SGU SUCKS is a correct way to phrase it. Your opinion is that it sucks. But you, any singular you cannot declare that something is bad or wrong or sucky because opinion is subjective and it varies from person to person.
Any singular person can no more empirically declare that SGU Sucks than they can to declare 'Vanilla Ice Cream Sucks'. No, it doesn't. YOU just don't like it."
Seriously? Its all you want? Semantics?
I can put "I think" in front of everything. Let me try:
I think SGU sucks.
I think Vanilla Ice Cream sucks.
I think Vanilla Ice sucks.
I think the holocaust never happened.
Try to find the one thats not respectful.
Yeah, right…
Putting "I think" in front of something is not going to make it any more "respectful" or even valid, its just a tautology, a self-evident statement.
Of course if i say "SGU sucks", i also THINK SGU sucks, after all its ME writing! If i would not think it, i would QUOTE someone.
Believe it or not, an opinion can also be true or false, there is nothing in an opinion that makes it automatically valid and "respectful".
Lets try (for simplicity sake, i left out the supporting arguments as to not confuse people):
a. "I think the earth is flat"
b. "I think gravitation curves space and time"
a. -false
b. -true
You can not disagree with A., a -true- opinion, namely an opinion based on facts, and supported by evidence.
However you can disagree with B., a false opinion, or an opinion NOT supported by evidence or arguments.
But i guess that is all lost on you, because you told me in a post on the forums that there are "no rules as to how a discussion has to be carried out", undermining your whole argument.
Logic and the so much evoked (by Tanith) "common sense" is thrown to the wind.
So much so, that people on the forums mockingly call me a Vulcan, which i dont find particularly insulting, more like a compliment.(http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?58390-Who-wants-actual-aliens-in-Universe&p=11234877&viewfull=1#post11234877)
Also on the topic of "lecturing" as you put it, i guess you would see any opinion supported by fact, arguments and/or evidence as lecturing.
After all, i would present such an opinion as TRUE.
I would of course leave this opinion open to discussion and if rebuked properly i would even consider changing my mind (I know, THE HORROR!). Contrary to popular belief, i am actually capable of such a feat (as seen here http://forum.gateworld.net/showthread.php?73107-Gatephysics-2-things-that-bother-me).
But telling people (to quote a famous movie):
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."
and calling it a day, is in fact, equal to ignoring the other person, which makes it demeaning, dismissive and condescending.
I would partially agree with you, yes the news-site should probably be in blog-form only, with comments disabled. However limiting posting to rebuttals i disagree. It would just diverge into who had the last word, the person rebuking first always pulls the short straw.
Edit, fixed mixup of letters:
You can not disagree with b., a -true- opinion, namely an opinion based on facts, and supported by evidence.
However you can disagree with A., a false opinion, or an opinion NOT supported by evidence or arguments.
Just don't have any rules. Just do it.
Tanith, I still do not think you understand the concept of free speech. Free speech means you have to take the bad with the good comments. That is how it works. You cannot have it just your way simply because you are overly sensitive.
I think I know where your problem is, you believe the answers in the question you just gave to be correct.
I, in fact, cannot disagree with either A or B (assuming they were said under an uninhibited state of mind), because they are your OPINION. There is a very big difference between fact (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fact?r=75&src=ref&ch=dic) and opinion. I cannot tell you that you believe the Earth is round, if you yourself believe it to be flat. I can, however, tell you that the Earth is indeed round, as proven by many experiments and recognized by a large majority of Earth's population, so much so that we might call it a fact. Therefore I might say that you have reached a false conclusion, but the fact that you have reached that conclusion is not false.
I hope that helps.
*So while "I think SGU sucks" may show more awareness of the initial poster than "SGU sucks", it's informational value is not much different from "SGU sucks", "SGU rocks" or "I think SGU rocks". It's telling us the opinion of one single poster. Thanks for telling us what we already knew.*
I can't disagree that a poster shouldn't have to qualify every single statement. People should be able to say 'that episode bites' and not have others get upset.
The problem is, declarative statements such as 'this pairing is the worst thing in the world' is often the first volley in a war of words as others decide that they will 'prove' that first person is wrong.
*In linguistic terms: It's not just the sender that has responsibility for a message, it's also the one who receives it (and in this case just *waits* to pounce on the wording, of all things…).*
I agree. Those that are making statements should have some consideration in what they're saying. 'such and such character sucks' isn't the best way to say it.
And your average forum member should know 'hey, just cause poster X says so, then it's fact and my golly i MUST refute that'
Thing is, many don't. So while the posters can exercise a bit more care, the readers also shouldn't take mortal offense at anything they don't like.
It takes two to tussle. And yes, the initial posters don't hold all the blame, but they do hold a majority of it, because if they weren't taking such apparent joy in rousing the rabble, there'd be a little less drama.
when you, as a poster, sees someone trying to pick a fight, don't take the bait. Don't respond to them.
However, don't go assuming everyone you see is speaking about you and intending to personally insult you.
Don't take their bait, but don't also assume everything out there is bait.
["No where is it said that people must blindly praise a show. Nor are they directed to mislead others. If you don't like something about the show, fine, don't like it. That dislike just has to be expressed with respect."]
That's not even what I posted, let me put it this way, why are negative posts towards SGU considered "pointless" and are often censored/deleted on the forum while posts that blindly praise SGU is allowed?
Either GW is a total suck up site that only allow praises, or it isn't and those posts were censored under double standards. It doesn't have anything to do with what people like, that is not the problem.
["SGU SUCKS is not only not respectful, it's not correct….and don't go snipping this part off when you quote this…I THINK SGU SUCKS is a correct way to phrase it. Your opinion is that it sucks. But you, any singular you cannot declare that something is bad or wrong or sucky because opinion is subjective and it varies from person to person.
Just because one person holds an opinion does not make that opinion fact."]
What the hell are you on about? I already made it clear what the problem is in my comment, and you ignored them and reply with irrevelvant stuff like a teaching lesson on what is fact and what is opinion, that's just nonsense. Why are you so afraid to answer to the key issues?
The key issue here isn't about what is fact and what is opinion, it's about forum censorship under double standards.
"SGU Sucks" being fact or opinion is irrelevant when you censor "SGU Sucks" and not "SGU Rocks".
That is what the real problem is.
Everyone knows it, everyone can see it.
Don't reply unless you have real answers.
["That's where a lot of the issues stem from. One person holds an opinion. In his/her mind that opinion is empirical fact and how DARE anyone not agree with him/her. We then go from a respectful exchange of ideas to one person steadfastly posting to 'educate' or 'convince' everyone that his/her opinion is the only right one to hold.
And we would have a lot less arguments started if people just remembered to only speak for themselves, not for the world at large."]
Again, it's funny you quoted and replied me with 200 words talking about what fact and opinion is, but it had nothing to do with what I posted, what I asked, what otheres are asking and what the real problem on GW is.
Your reply looks exactly like the "educate or convince attempt" you were referring to, instead of talking about the double standard censorship issue you educate people what is the difference between fact and opinions.
It's too late to play this misdirection game when the problem is right in front everyone's face.
Again, don't reply unless you have real answers.
["How is "SGU SUCKS" different from "SGU ROCKS", based on your response? How is it okay for delete the former and leave the latter? It is an opinion of a single person, the one just like the other."]
Damn right, but the real issue go deeper than that.
On top of the double standard between "SGU Sucks" and "SGU Rocks".
The mods also allow posts like "SG1/SGA sucks", "SG1/SGA fan boys are cry babies", "SG1/SGA fan boys are ". But if you replace SG1/SGA with SGU then they get different treatment.
Of course Colonel Sharp, but it doesnt change the fact that your conclusion is demonstrably false.
I never deny people their opinion, however, i weight opinion based on its support by arguments and evidence.
Wouldn't you agree that a properly supported argument or opinion has more weight than a not supported one?
Wouldn't you also agree that I have a right to call you out on your opinion and call your conclusion false if you said the earth is flat?
Indeed its just semantics. If i call your opinion false, i OF COURSE mean your conclusion, not the fact that you really believe/think something.
It should be self-evident that i am not denying you the right to -THINK- that the earth is flat, i mean, how can i, im not the thought-police.
What i am advocating here is to call a spade a spade and not hide behind false "correctness". Opinion on the forums is touted as the non-plus-ultra conversation stopper, it can not be disputed, attacked, subverted or discussed.
I can provide links to relevant posts if needed as support for this statement.
So, what I gather from Denise' posts so far is: In the end, the "freedom of expression" discussion around here boils down to how the site founder and the mods view their readership/ frequenters.
If people frequenting this site are in fact mature adults, they should be able to abstract (from statements like "SGU sucks" meaning "I think SGU sucks"). Then I'm with AdamTM in this: Why mod at all? If anyone *wants* to get baited into a name calling squabble on an open forum (and maybe make themselves look utterly foolish in the process), why not? They consented by joining the fray, so either they bear it out or walk away at some point. As an adult, I don't feel anyone should need to be protected from embarassing him-/herself by the mods. Likewise, mods are not responsible for the posters. You get into a screaming match you have to end it on your own, no running crying to ModMum.
Seriously, I love the way that "just walk away" advice makes it into roughly every third comment on this site and like 0,1% of all people every apply it to themselves.
If you view yourselves as the parental mods who have to teach everyone around manners plus ensure noones feelings get hurt in any way, there will have to be heavy modding. And frankly, I don't think you can ever please everyone, keeping in mind that you still want to endorse discussion… but I guess Darren gets that pretty well allready with the flakk from all sides at the moment.
So basically: Set up rules (done), stick to them, end of story. Noone has to watch SGU, noone has to come and discuss here (yes, you can also just read the news and ignore the comments), noone has to jump to anyones rescue in a discussion and noone has to take criticism from one or the other side to heart all that much. Again with the stating things most people already know. *slaps self*
[By the way: Thanks for editing in the correct word in my previous post!]
Take a look at any SGU episode thread. You'll see plenty of crit. You'll see people that have had issues and that express them.
If a person doesn't like something, they can say so. They just can't do it disrespectfully, calling names, using profanity, disparaging others. That's what we moderate. The rude and intolerant posts.
As to the 'you let people bash those that don't like the show', when you see that happening, report it. Bring it to the moderating team's attention. Don't assume that we read every single post in every single thread. Don't assume that, after a report, things aren't deleted in 15 minutes that we're ignoring it….we sleep :)
Or, in some cases, I get onto the forum in the morning to find thirty reported posts waiting for me. Takes a bit of time to work through that backlog.
And sometimes it takes time to deal with an issue. Especially the first 24-48 hours after a new episode. Posting is in high gear which means that there's a greater chance of there being reported posts and it takes time to deal with them. and often, while we're dealing with an issue, we still have people making posts on the same issue we're dealing with. Or, if we take a thread out of view to clean it up, we're then deluged with pm's 'where'd it go!!!!!!' that we have to deal with while we're also trying to wade through pages of bickering. Or, other times, a thread goes away and more than one mod looks at it, and since we're scattered across 18 time zones, it takes a while for everyone to chime in.
And don't assume that just because you don't hear anything about a poster, nothing is done. In addition, when a person is moderated and you see and read 'poor me, i was so picked on'….you're only getting one side of the story. There's been more than one case when a person exaggerates his/her punishment, and often neglects to mention what brought it about in the first place.
If moderating this website is so overwhelming then there should be more moderators.
@Denise, I haven't posted here for quite a long time. I am just trying to understand if all the mods are following a Set of rules, or arbitrarily dealing out heavy handed authority.
Would you Mod this comment, and if so, why? (BTW, this is a really old post done several months ago)
"@Tanith: I am not here to cater to your whims and fancies, so get off your frieking high horse. you are not the center of (Stargate) Universe. We are here to proclaim our displeasure, so that TPTB and writers do not delude themselves that everything's rosy in lala land. That is the only way a quality product can one day (if Ever) can emerge. If you don't like my comments, just ignore them"
I'd be interested in getting your perspective on the above comment.
I don't use the forums, i'm a complete outsider that catches us on a few articles with the odd comment every month or so!
I really can't believe that moderators are actually arguing back with site users, especially those trying to back track with their own failed double standards!
Maybe the site owner should start moderating the moderators before SGW gets tarnish too much!
IMO that is!
First I have to say that I think debates are not a bad thing, even if they are heated. I think everyone should have the right to voice his opinion even if it starts a debate. It is interesting to read other people opinions, including opinions I am not agreeing with.
"The problem is, declarative statements such as 'this pairing is the worst thing in the world' is often the first volley in a war of words as others decide that they will 'prove' that first person is wrong."
"It takes two to tussle. And yes, the initial posters don't hold all the blame, but they do hold a majority of it, because if they weren't taking such apparent joy in rousing the rabble, there'd be a little less drama."
I am curious, what if the initial poster would have written "this pairing is the best thing in the world" and the second poster didn't agree with it? Who is then holding the majority of the blame in your opinion? After reading all your comments in this thread, I wouldn't believe you, if you wouldn't blame the second poster most.
My advice is to install a swear word filter, so that comments including words like idiot, asshole, troll, can't be posted anymore. That would prevent the use of most profanities.
The moderators should reduce their role. They should still prevent spamming like commercials for porn sites. They can still delete double posts and posts which have absolutely nothing to do with with the thread topic. A detailed discussion about who is better, Rambo or Rocky, will be in most Stargate threads inappropriate.
Otherwise they shouldn't delete posts. If a debate got VERY heated, they can remind the posters that they should tone it down, but they shouldn't start deleting posts and banning posters. A reminder that people should try to stay civil will usually help to calm most people.
"As to the 'you let people bash those that don't like the show', when you see that happening, report it. Bring it to the moderating team's attention."
I would limit the influence of the moderators and reduce their role. But as long as they have the influence they currently have, they should use their "power" fairly.
I already quoted a comment from Skydiver at February 27 @ 9:37 pm in this thread. I am sure you know of this comment:
I think it breaks comment rule number 3: "treat others with respect". It is still there. That it came from a moderator makes it worse. A moderator should be a role model, a good example for everyone else. They shouldn't be disrespectful, biased and unfair.
Like it not, all forums need moderators. Why? Because there are always people who just like to troll, or circumvent rules by not saying "go throw yourself off a building" and instead say "defenestrate" ;)
If everybody behaved, well, heck, we'd be in a Disney movie.
You can say "SGU / SGA / SG1 / CheeseWhiz, etc. sucks," without being tactless or blunt. One of the biggest problems with this fandom and many others is that people just can't say "xxx sucks." they have to say "xxx sucks and if you like it you're an (fill in insulting word)". I think enough people have made that point.
But back to the topic. Censorship. It's hard to tell unless you see an entire thread go poof and you'd just been reading it. I've seen some posts, which I thought were excellent, go poof because of that.
I'm not sure what's going on now as I really haven't visited the forums much since SGU showed the last first-run episode. Otherwise, a lot of threads are beating something to death (pro or con). Actors news and such is more fun to read.
I know I have had several of my comments deleted or never posted. I loged in with a different name to get on the site.
I have followed the franchise from the first movie, then for years on Showtime and even more years on SciFi. The majority of folks I have personally spoken with do not enjoy the new soap opera format SGU is using. Even folks watching Caprica are commenting the format being used by SyFy is making all the new shows too slow and somewhat boring because it is all so very slow and hard to stay awake watching both shows. I know I am struggling with Caprica just as i did with SGU. The difference for me is the story on Caprica is much better, but I suspect the really low ratings is partly caused by folks not trusting Syfy any more. The suits over at Syfy are behind these new shows and not so much the showrunners/ writers. The network seems to be experiencing an Idenity Crisis.
Yes, it is hard for us old folks to give up our favorite tv franchise and some like a divorced person in a divorce we did not desire HAVE BEEN FIGHTING BACK.
We will just have to wait and see if those hardheaded folks that changed everything will rethink some of these drastic changes. Some change is often good as we grow in knowledge, and I suspect the SUITS at Syfy may be growing some as they are finding their soap opera formatted ideas for Syfy may need to add more of the elements young scifi viewers require to support a tv show. I just do not believe all the darkness and slowness in both SGU and Caprica can get enough of a crowd to last very long. SGU will have the two seasons but a third will require some thoughtful growth by the Syfy suits to make it happen. Lost is a very unusual program and trying to be like Lost will not necessarly assure success.
Regarding censorship, what the moderators have done on the forums has, at times, crossed the line. I started a thread at one point to make a very specific point. It worked. And upon finding that it worked, it was reported and the posting that explained what the point was removed – but the rest of the thread was left in place. I asked that either the whole thread be removed or that at least all of my postings and any references to them be removed and was summarily denied this. In my case, it wasn't just censorship but rather revisionist history. The point of the thread didn't change just because the moderators decided they didn't agree with it and removed the explanation. Yet they did so anyhow, removing the key to the whole thread. I was ok with the idea of being censored but was not happy that my words were essentially changed to suit someone else's purpose. My issues with this were summarily dismissed and ignored because the moderator felt they were beyond reproach. I no longer participate in the forums for that reason.
As for SGU, to those who complain about others complaining about it…tough. Gateworld was around long, long before SGU came along. It grew to what it was because of the fans of SG1 and SGA, not because of the fans of SGU. Now a struggling studio has taken something that while it didn't get huge numbers, had a very dedicated base and tossed the old fans aside for new ones. So no, we're not happy about it. And we will do whatever it takes to make that very clear. And no it's not enough to say it once and then forget about it. Many of us want SGU to fail because it represents not just a tv franchise that we liked being torn apart but also the negative impact of all of the changes to dumb thing down to appeal to the masses. Many of us didn't like BSG because we're not interested in a soap opera in space. Yet our show was taken apart and rebuilt into a seemingly poorer version of it. You now have Caprica to fill your soap needs but we have still lost our Stargate. And most of us who feel this way aren't the sensitive types that swoon for BSG and SGU and as such are far less likely to fade away without a fight. Really, as long as SGU remains on the air, I hope someone will stand by to remind any who will listen of what there was before and how it was lost.
Found this defenition of censoring on the net, sums it up nicely in my oppinion:-
•censoring: counterintelligence achieved by banning or deleting any information of value to the enemy.
Certainly sounds like what is going on at this site by the mods.
Best thing for both sides to do is ignore each other lol. My Muslim co-workers always try to get in a reglious debate on who is right or wrong…I just ignore them and all is well. If the people hate SGU…let them hate it and write whatever they want.
The truth is this site is for the benefit of the folks at the Stargate franchise and has been from the beginning and rightly so. Anything that is beleived to possibly injury the franchise will be censered and until TPTB make a change those of us that do not find SGU to be as great as TPTB want us to believe will basicially not have our opinions welcome here. My caring for the franchise has really started to die and even my "HOPE against ALL HOPE" as the Abraham of the Bible was credited with having Faith that somehow the show would be made watchable is also gone. The censership on this FanBoy site is only an expected result of how bad is really is. In the world I live in SGU just sucks, a fact in my world.
I have to agree with jaffa orange, the moderating here is… lacking in quality. If any semi negative or even constructively criticism is going to get deleted, then best to put that in the terms of use. Just warn people that the sensitive people drunk on power will delete posts they don't personally like, regardless if it's unethical.
If we were the 'mean evil censors' some accuse, we would have dozens or hundreds of banned members. Instead, if you take out our persistent spammers, we have maybe a half dozen to a dozen truly banned members. Considering that this forum started five, almost six years ago, that's not very many people.
People who are put on moderation often interpret it as 'i was banned' when what it really is that their posts are queued and reviewed because they have persistently broken the language or respect rules. If a person is banned, they cannot access the forum at all.
I've had people accusing me of censorship as they start the fifth thread declaring that chloe is a whore, and how dare i close that thread. (which is character bashing by the way)
Or when we take the 20 threads started about how bad it is that SGA was ended and merge them into one.
Or when a poster isn't allowed to call someone a prick, or an idiot, or stupid.
Or, as PSW has suggested, we do have swear word filters, yet people use creative spelling to circumvent them, and we're accused of censoring them when we snip out the creative spelling and usage of symbols to spell out the swear word they're not supposed to be using in the first place.
USO, I'd need to see the context of that paragraph you posted. I can't comment without it.
If one group of fans is up in arms about disparaging remarks about SGU being made on Gateworld, and another group is claiming that critical remarks about SGU are being censored, it probably means that Gateworld has struck a good balance!
@tablelamp Here, here!!
LOL come on, first a 200 words essay on "what is opinion and facts", and now another essay on "censorship is not banning".
Everyone is talking about posts being edited/removed/stuck in queue, so why are you talking about "there aren't banning?
Your first paragraph basically means: [[Oh we dont have "dozens or hundreds of banned members" so you see we are not "mean evil censors"]]
Come on, do you really think these kind of misdirection tactics is going to work?
Again, all you did is take the 5% extreme cases and justify the other 95% BS and hope people won't notice.
The way the forum unfairly moderate has been well know for months if not years, a lot of us already accepted it as common knowledge, and didn't even bring it up again until people like you keep trying to cover it up.
@Denise I can see merging the SGA remorse threads due to clutter, but regarding "Chloe is a whore" – if that many threads are being created about a subject, it must be a perception amongst the fanbase and, to me anyway, worthy of discussion.
I can see wanting to not bash the character but if there is the feeling that she is acting in a certain way (i.e., whorishly) that is not exactly uplifting to the character, how is it to be discussed in a respectful fashion?
I used to make thought invoking arguments here in these comment section but I just lost interest after awhile. I mean this is a a section to share your view of a show you like to watch and its become a warzone between those who like the show and those who believe its the reason that Atlantis died. I have little doubt that if Atlantis were still running that those same 5 or 6 people who comprise 95% of the negativity around here would not even be here. They don't like the show, they didn't like it before it launched and they never will like it. They come here and into every article about SGU to spread negativity in an attempt to ran their unhappiness about SGU not being Atlantis down the throats of its fans at every possible opportunity.
I used to try and fight these comments but grew so tired of it that I just stopped coming. This is in fact the first time I've been back here in nearly 2 months. I had hoped they would be gone but they are all present in this thread still inciting discourse. IMO, they've ruined my enjoyment of the comments section of Gateworld, not because they have an opposing opinion but because they seem to have an obsession with screaming it at everyone here at every chance they get. Nobody likes to hear something they enjoy get bashed in front of you non stop, it takes the fun out of it.
I thought this site was for fans to get news and talk with other fans but these people are obviously not fans so why are they here?! What do they expect to gain with this never ending hate machine?! I've been experiencing it for long enough to come to the conclusion that they don't expect anything. They only come to do exactly what they are doing, ruining the fun for those who do like SGU. They're trolls, flamers and they meet that definition wholeheartedly. They used to be fans but now they're here only to incite anger from actual fans and cause general havok because they're pissed off. They don't watch the show, they have already said that, so why are they here? Why?! Why would they still come to a comments section of a show they hate for any reason but to start fights?! I know what they'll say, I've had them all answer that form at different times and the answer is always the same. "I want TPTB to know I'm not happy." Fine, they have freaking heard it. You've made it abundantly clear since the show was announced that you don't like it. There is nothing left to achieve here but are continuing to achieve which is creating havoc with every hateful paragraph. Enough is enough already, please move way on from here and talk about something you do like in its appropriate section. Stop spoiling the fun for actual fans. I'm not talking about those who didn't like something about a particular episode either, I mean those particular 5 or 6 members who have made it their job in life to cause utter disruption with their every appearance in these comments sections. They know who they are. You all know who they are, no names needed and the fact that we all know, mods included should say something about how much of an impact they have made here. I'm find with opposing views but these people have gone beyond that and when they start chasing off fans with their diatribe, I think mods need to take a heavier hand.
This isn't about freedom of speech or censorship. This is about protecting the integrity of the site from those looking to incite an entire fanbase for their own selfish reasons.
The ignore function or the scrolling button on your mouse works wonders. I suggest trying them out instead of expecting the internet to cater to you.
Just one little question for DarkElfa: If I do not want gay scenes in the entertainment I watch, then suddenly find it in SGU like we all did in that one episode (you know the one…), do I still have to come in here and expouse how wonderful the show is, IOW, lie, just so you will have a warm and fuzzy feeling about the forum?
If you take away my right to say I don't want gay scenes in my entertainment, you are censoring me. Point blank. You had your say — quite at length I might add — and I have just as much right to have mine.
Keep the gay scenes out of sci-fi. If there are those who want this, then split the show into totally gay and totally straight versions and let the viewers choose.
Sci-Fi tried this with Lexx some years ago. Look how far that went…
I haven't checked in on the Stargate world for awhile since SGU really did nothing for me.
I think the problem with TPTB of Stargate, as opposed to something like Star Trek, The X-Files, or Doctor Who is that the other franchises seem to really values its fans, and have always had a reputation of revisiting storylines and characters that were fan favorites.
I think if they really would have cared, they would have followed up on storylines the fans asked about year after year, but instead they just made jokes about or ignored (i.e. Furlings, Jonas, etc.).
In the case of TPTB, they seem to have the attitude that the fans somehow owe them some huge debt when in fact it is the other way around. A lot of the guys seem to come off as flip and arrogant too.
I still thank them for the great years of SG-1, the decent years of SGA, and I will ultimately but SGU on BluRay out of respect for the good years, but I am no longer an adamant supporter of the SG franchise. There have just been too many bumps along the way.
For years, I was very against the idea of Devlin/Emmerich being allowed to revisit the franchise they created in a story that ignored the SG-1verse, but now I think it might be a refreshing change, and alter the downward spiral that the SG franchise is currently going.
MGM started this new show on the assumption that they would not only keep their present SGA and SG1 audience, but also add a whole new audience of younger viewers as well. They were even willing to loose some of their faithful viewers and expected it. They even changed the characters bringing in younger actors around the same ages as those they hoped to get as new viewers.
I wonder what facts that they based this big gamble on? I mean something must have looked really good given they dropped one of the most successful series of Stargate to date (SGA) in order to make room for it? In my opinion they should have started fresh with this show and not tied it to Stargate at all if they wanted to have another successful scifi hit series. How it is you gamble your company who is not doing all that well on a single show when you already had one that was making consistent revenue's is beyond me? Roddenberry moved the Star Trek series on as well, but he didn't wipe out the characters that were responsible for the popularity of the show all at once. He slowly moved away from those characters giving the audience time to adjust, and with a plausible reason. MGM and their brilliant talented people should have taken "Roddenberry 101" on how to integrate a new off shoot of their popular hit shows, and that wasn't changing the basic reasons the majority of the viewing audience was watching the series for! They almost dropped the ball when they went from SG1 to SGA, but was thankfully saved by some creative writing that brought the previous characters back into the scene in a major way from time to time. The writers of SGU didn't do that. They have a brief scene with Daniel Jackson on some educational disc's that Eli was watching, and the brief part that Richard Dean has played and that is all that is remotely familiar with the previous series of stargate and its characters. What about Characters like Rodney and his twist he put on it with his interaction with the characters of SG1 and SGA as well as all of the other characters that frankly made these shows worth watching? If I was going to start a whole new off shoot of Stargate I would have integrated the new characters into the old series that everyone loved a little at a time making them familiar with the viewing audience so when the hammer was dropped the shock wouldn't have been near as bad, or vice versa if they had brought some of the old character from SGA and SG1 and got them to interact with the new character on SGU before they dropped the hammer they were discontinuing SGA then again the shock wouldn't have been near as bad, and I don't think that there would be near the amount of really upset die hard fans as there are and the massive loss of the viewing audience who was faithful up until now to the Stargate franchise. Then when they went and made these two movies they have writen recently about SG1 and SGA they would have complemented what was going on SGU, instead of it threatening the new shows viewing audience!
In the episode when Dr. Rush was left on the planet with the old space ship that was out of commission it was obvious to me that they were going to use this to try and get the curiosity of the audience up so they would watch since the numbers showed that they had dropped the ball completely thou they ddnt let the public in general know this at this time and still are not! Anyway, they will have Rush back in the dialog soon when he either repairs the crashed ship or is rescued by another race. He may have even convinced the new race that those who left him there were really criminals or rogues that took over his ship! We shall see h ow this plays out if inhdeed they get a chance to air SGU in April.
To conclude my rantings about the SGU "FOPA" I want to add that there isn't a need for vulgarity and ugliness when expressing ones opinion and frustration over this obvious folly that has bankrupted MGM and the Stargate franchise because it is obvious regurdless if they are saying anything or not that the show has fallen on its face due to poor planning and management. There is a big difference in how these shows are viewed by their faithful viewing audience and how the studio and the management view them and if the powers to be had taken a little more time to understand this gap there would be another very interesting off shoot of the Stargate franchise running as we speak!. You don't have to dis those responsible for the cancellation of SGA and SG1 because they already know it. There seems to be a fair amount of the public that hasn't seen the writing on the wall about this franchise but they will when SGU fades into obscurity. It makes far more sense to me to start up the SGA and SG1 again and run them concurrently like the Roddenberry plan has shown can work and be very lucrative with a little forethought and planning!
I have absolutely no issues with censorship. This isn't a country, its a privately ran site that can do whatever the hell it wants and decide for itself what it wants on its site. If it doesn't want negative crap about the shows it represents, boot them the hell out. Fairness should only go so far before you have to man up and refuse to let a few jerks ruin it for the rest of us. They obviously have no intentions of stopping, they've made that quite clear. At this point, the site needs to decide if they want to be so incredibly fair that they allow a handful of negative voices chase off those not interested in the never ending hate and drama over here.
@Imitation Tofu, I'm not the one expecting catering here. I expect a website to be ran accordingly to whats best for the site and the majority of its readers and not let a few random hooligans turn it upside down in the name of free speech.
@sgu-sucks, wow man, your name just says it all, huh? someone with that much homophobia should probably never turn on a TV nowadays, you may be offended.
As far as those who are dissecting the moderators and free expression in my opinion all of it is simple arguing because you can!! You can say what you want, and have a right to say what what you believe, but remember that when it becomes personal it is no longer in that arena. A persons personal rights end where anthers nose begins, and at this point moderation is necessary for the rights of those not involved in a fruitless argument that doesn't really have a point other then arguing. Compare it to picking all of the petals off of the "Rose" in order to find out why it is beautiful!
@astroman, I do not agree with you, but your argument is both fair and intelligent. You've managed to create a though evoking counter opinion without sounding like your intention is to bait or otherwise stir up trouble. Kudos to you sir.
Mythos makes a number of good points – mosty notably, that if posts are censored by the mods then the poster should have the right to have whatever "they" want removed and not leave it to the mod. This hints a bit at selective journalism that you see in current affairs shows like 60 minutes.
As for SGU being a ripoff off BSG, even blind freddy could see this! It really is a shame that the writers decided to go down this path to improve the earning ability of the franchise. Hello!!!! Stargate has been around long enough for people to know whether they would like to watch it or not. The gamble that the producers made to see if they could increase the show's fans actually backfired on them big time. What they should have done was make a show that continued on in the same guise as SG1 or SGA (in my belief, SGA had many more years left in it). The bonus to this would be that new fans would end up getting into SG1 and SGA in between the seasons of SGU and then they would buy the DVDs of the series. What I believe "will" happen is that the old die-hard SG1 and SGA fans will not buy any SGU DVDs and think twice about warming to another series of SGU. What producers really need to understand is that when they lose a fan…they pretty much lose a fan for life!
All I can do is point out the obvious in that Channel 10 (Australia) had been pumping up the show all Summer prior to its airing in early January….only then to pull it after 3 shows for bad ratings. Now, it will be interesting to see how "V" goes down on WIN TV. If they don't pull it after a few shows I think it would be a good bet then that SGU really didn't cut the mustard.
Now…I love Stargate….and the only reason I don't completely flame SGU is because it still is made by the same people that gave us great seasons of SGI and SGA….but my dedication as a fan is wearing a bit thin. I really want to see a show that clearly has links with SG1 and SGA….not something totally new and "radical". SGU reeks of BSG. Let's get rid of those bad camera angles and handi-cam scenes. Bring back the underlying music, make episodes with humour and concentrate on making episodes that could play out like a 2 hour movie. These things clearly worked for 12 years.
Finally, the producers should not forget that the fans on this site, who are so vocal in their love or distaste for SGU, are clearly pointing out what fans love or hate about the show. If you really want to know how to save this franchise then please listen to them. They are…in lots of ways…saving your behinds.
If the reason you visit GW is to find fan boys who blindly praise the show while nodding to each other in agreement, just goto the heavily censored GW forum where the majority of the threads are PRO-SGU.
Comments is written by the people, if you don't like what people are saying, tough luck. Ask Darren to put up a big sign that reads "GateWorld IS A FAN BOY ONLY SITE" and all these negativity will go away.
Why even bother writing a 1000 words essay when you can't even see the most fundamental causes of the problem.
One of the main reason why people keep posting negative comments is because TPTB/Actors keep insulting the fans.
My two cents on Stargate from a 54yo who hasn't missed an episode. Indeed!
Since I have a DVR I can time shift SGU so that's not it, I like my Sci Fi Friday live.
The flagship SG-1 and then SG-A had a less gloom and doom feel. They were intense but light hearted and fit perfectly at the end of my week.
SG-U is well done and getting weller, but you need to be ready to think and not just let the show entertain you. It takes work.
Personally I would have liked the original premise shows and movies to continue and have SG-U maybe rip out a straight through season in order to establish its legs and audience.
Laughing is also a part of the SG experience and Universe isn't a laugh out loud type of show, and it shouldn't be.
I want to smile, I want to laugh, I want PIE!
@Pot, you aren't listening are you? I didn't say I have a problem with people having issues with the show, I have problems with the same group of trolls continually showing up to bash the show on a fan site.
I am saying the TPTB/Actors is often the one that's being the troll in the first place.
Yeah let's quit a site then come back and moan about it because 4 or 5 people who hurt your feelings by posting negative in a comments you can simply ignore, when the article itself is positive and there are 500 more fan boys posting praises throughout the entire site.
1. Until Darren decides GW is a SGU Fan Boy only site. Your entire post don't make any sense as your feelings were never part of any equations.
2. Your so called "accordingly to whats best for the site" is just inexperienced and wishful thinking, if GW allows different opinions (no matter how many times they are repeated by any camp), GW will continue to maintain its status when the SG landscape changes, but if GW is declared a SGU Fan boy only site, GW will keep the SGU fans but GW will also be ridiculed over across the net and lose a lot of reputation and traffic, forever.
3. Your points are base on the assumption that everyone else is as weak as you are when it comes to facing negative opinions, the fact is most people don't moan about quiting like you do just because of 4 or 5 people posting comments you don't have to read in a section you don't have to go. So what you posted here sounds more like eldest child syndrome and again, don't make any sense since Darren already stated he wants free expression to win the day.
4. The internet is not for those who can only handle repeat praises but not the opposite. If you quit, then stay quit, it's not going to make any difference.
the whole point of this thread/discussion is that posts like the one you have just made directly attack another site user and as such should be deleted as they are disrespectful.
We will now see if the mods on this site are playing by the rules and do indeed delete your post.
To be honest I dont mind either way as it just proves that the traffic of abuse is a two way street and that the people that do not like the show are not the only ones bad mouthing others as some on here would like to believe.
You said yourself that you expect a website to be ran accordingly to whats best for the site and that would be applying the rules and deleting your post.
Furthermore, we live in a democracy where we are supposed to have the freedom of speech and to say that we are ruining the site in the name of that freedom sounds completely Stalinist and dictatorial. If the truth hurts there is always the option of not reading the posts or not visiting the site.
For what it's worth, I think your comment was thoughtful and stated in a respectful manner.And coincidentally I agree ;)
It's deliciously hypocritical to see posters demand respect for a tv show while disrespecting other posters.
I won't attempt to respond to pot and Spaceman since their only recourse here to try and label me a crybaby who can't take criticism which couldn't be further from the truth. They aren't actually thinking about what I've said here. Let me spell it out bluntly. I don't want a fanboy site, I don't want a one sided conversation. What I want is for them to ban those 5-6 trolls that have been inciting discourse in the comments section for the last 8 months. Only those 5-6. We all now the ones. They aren't here to discuss the show, they're here to moan about SGU and why they hate that it replaced Atlantis. They know the situation isn't going to be reversed but they keep coming here to every single SGU article written and crapping all over the show, the actors, the writers and its fans because they're angry and jilted. They aren't interest in having any conversation about SGU, only to badmouth it and that makes them trolls and the last time I checked there was a difference between a troll and a disgruntled fan and trolls have never been good for any site as they muck up the real discussions with adverse hate and tend to derail the topic at hand.
@Jaffa Orange, I'm not sure you've listened to anything said here by anyone. Let me quote you here:
"we live in a democracy where we are supposed to have the freedom of speech and to say that we are ruining the site in the name of that freedom sounds completely Stalinist and dictatorial"
This is not a democracy, its a privately owned web site. People come here from all over the world, not just the USA and being an American myself, I'm going to remind you that freedom of speech does not protect hate speech. I would say that coming onto a site where fans come to get their news and discuss their show with others with the direct intent to piss people off and cause trouble for the site is an abuse of free speech in any respect.
@Petra, thank you.
@Tofu, respect is earned. I don't care if anyone respects the show or not but I do expect them to take it somewhere else if they have nothing to add to the conversation and no other intention but to anger people who do.
I think it's all in the phrasing. You can tell someone to go to hell, if you say please and thank you.
This is television, not life and death. You can disagree without being disagreeable.
In other words, don't be a dick while negatively critiquing anything. People tune out very quickly when someone goes off the deep end.
i have read alot of these comments and alot of you make very good points. i have been a victim of gateworld myself my comments have been deleted even though i havent been rude to no anyone. i have been posting on gateworld for two years now and i havent posted any disrespectful comments to no one and i havent received any direct comments either. i think everyone on here is entitled to their own opinion whether they are good or bad and i dont think we should be hammered every time we post something negative because we all know what respect is. Yes, i agree there are times we can be a bit harsh on what we post but lets keep in mind that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. in regards to gateworld deleting post that dont deserve to be deleted i personally think this is un fair but yet again im not a moderator nor i agree with their policies on how they moderate their posts. I have been on other message boards where they do not have any policies on what you post and boy those people can be rude. I guess or maybe I can be wrong but gateworld is probably trying to keep that from happening but then again I ask myself why was my post deleted when it had nothing to do with not complying with their policies.
To add to the discussion about Chloe. She isn't a whore. Obviously she isn't getting paid for her services so the correct terminology in this case would then be 'slut'.
So if and when you feel the need to talk about Chloe in a not so positive light, please refer to her as slut instead of whore. Thank you.
Regarding the moderating, I think you guys are doing a pretty good job. I imagine it's hard to keep track of all the new comments all the time and actually having to read every single one of them to catch potentially disrespectful words. I have been pissed off on an occasion in the past where a comment I had written (and spend about two hours on) was simply deleted even though in my opinion it was a good post. However I often read comments that are full of criticism so apparently you do leave plenty of leeway.
I find all of the people claiming gateworld as an SGU fan site quite amusing, being that many of us were here well before SGU saw the light of day. This site, at least in the past and hopefully into the future, has been about all things Stargate. While this does include SGU, it certainly has never been limited to it. And unless there is a plan to make this site dedicated to SGU, as long as it is about all things Stargate, it will be a place for those who dislike what SGU has done to the franchise to voice their opinions.
As for the number of people banned, what does that have to do with anything? That's a testament to the users, not the moderators. Ironically, it's probably more likely now. This 'younger' crowd that SGU is meant to draw in is also the same group the script kiddies come from and they're the ones more likely to react poorly enough to being moderated to require being banned. They're so sensitive and touchy, which seems to be the case for a lot of SGU fans. During the SG1 and SGA era, battles were fought and it was left in the thread. There were disagreements then too, but people didn't fall apart every time someone said something less than praise.
If you want a strictly SGU Fan Site, start one. As long as this site is about all things Stargate and not just SGU, you're just going to have to deal with the fact that a lot of us don't like SGU.
"During the SG1 and SGA era, battles were fought and it was left in the thread."
I wish we had that tbh, but we have some people who feel the need to continue the 'battle' in almost every article that's related to SGU (And a few that arnt). I believe a certain hater website said and I quote "Let the Games Begin!" shortly after this article was posted.
I wouldn't mind staying on topic aswell: Like say in an article about a particular SGU episode: actually being episode specific and not everyone's opinion of SGU in general (which has been said before time & time again).
Its cool, you see, we on "a certain site" (that has now a funky new banner design! yay) actually have a sense of humor.
Also, you see, we on "a certain site" have an agenda, that we in fact DO NOT hide.
We are pretty clear on our stance towards SGU and Gateworld, yes we do represent the far end of the spectrum, but we actually do not deny it.
You are on the OTHER far end, but again, you try to rationalize this fact away and hide behind "respect and common sense" when in fact you are far from "balanced".
BTW we noticed that you do not post on our site anymore, but you apparently still read it, we encourage you to post more if you have certain concerns.
In contrary to you (Tanith), WE invite YOU (all of you) to our site, we want YOUR opinion on our forum, and be sure it will NOT get moderated.
Also we will not ask you to go away, or quit posting because we dont like your stance. We recently had a refreshing discussion about SGU vs SGA ratings with an SGU fan under the name of "NewCastle Guy" he provided meaningful data and arguments.
You however do not, you just tell people to go away and shut up.
my suggestion: niguem is perfect…all commit mistakes…then, stop SG.U, the more insist, adult will be the damage! and return SG1 and or SGA urgently!!! because in my opnião…it was madness to contain those two you serialize fantastic, and to put SG.U! it was a lot of responsibility on that serializes, that this totally supported in SG1 eSGA, and it didn't correspond! I understand that the producers, want to innovate, to put intellectuality in that gender of entertainment, but, for that gender of characters' drama, excuse me, and oh it is the great mistake: it could be a lot of things, less fiction for that…as example mentions the reality shows, that he/she has more the face of that, but no that gender of SG1 and SGA, because I take a risk to say, that if the producing of SG1 and SGA also wanted to go for that road…**they would not feel well! me same, I am impassioned by SG1 and SGA, and many other you serialize of quality fiction as babylon 5, earth the final conflict, cronics of sarah connors, and more…but I only got to attend the first 2 episodes of SG.U, and I saw yes, pornography, almost explicit sex, actors without some charisma, and a long time to show some thing in 3 chapters, and I admit that seemed that he/she doesn't have scriptwriter, he/she doesn't have scenery, he/she doesn't have actors, he/she doesn't have creativity, he/she doesn't have coherence with SG1 and SGA, it lacks intelligence, and probably the worst…**money! I repeat, that doesn't have minimum level for my appreciation, it is an acephalous amount! excuse me the honesty! but if I didn't care with the continuity of quality entertainment, he/she would not show here! after all, I also pay tv for signature the sky here in the brasil, and here raisin that serializes! the salvation, is that for my happiness, it still passes some episodes of SG1 and SGA in the channel 46 and scfi! nobody is forced to like than it doesn't like, and the more they insist, more it would be will be the protest reactions! concluding: I agree that should have respect and consideration in relation to the treatment among the people! as for you "Darren Sumner", thank you for everything, and master this site Gateworld, always liked of here!
@Tanith – You completely misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying people shouldn't take it so personally when someone does show their distaste for SGU.
@Seaco – Can I have some of what you're having?
@mythos, check it out, you and I agree on something, I'd like to know what Seaco is having as well, wow.
@adamtm Notice that "NewCastle Guy" is just getting his points laughed at now. Why would anyone who likes SGU try to have a discussion on that site where getting bashed & laughed at is to be expected? Its not exactly a friendly atmosphere.
I'm sorry, you misunderstood me, I never said we would invite you over for cake and friendship.
What did you expect from a site that is called sgusucks.com, seriously.
I only said that we invite you over to post your opinions and that you wont be moderated, we are not interested in being fair and balanced, i think the sites name makes that VERY clear.
GW claims to be fair and balanced, we dont.
You'll notice hes getting bashed, but hes not told to go away. Hell, we even have a troll down there now called SGASucks posting random ****, we dont mod it.
Why? Because that guy is hilarious, i actually laughed at his Teyla – Horse comparison.
Primetime comedy material.
Yet more excuses, you wouldn't attempt to respond because you simply have no answers.
And I quote:
"I don't want a fanboy site, I don't want a one sided conversation. What I want is for them to ban those 5-6 trolls that have been inciting discourse in the comments section for the last 8 months. "
Blah blah blah…
Your entire comment is again, irrelevant because of 2 simple facts:
1. GW is a privately owned website, but it is not owned by you. The owner already stated how he wants to run it, and it is not your way.
2. Nobody here cares about what you want.
All your arguments have no grounds because it's either based on how you want to run GW (see #1), and what you want (see #2).
Whatever Spaceman, if my arguments are irrelevant then so are yours. They aren't based on what I want, they're based on what's commonly seen at respectable websites unless you believe trolls should be allowed to run rampant.
at what point have i used hate speech? how is expressing how i feel in a polite manner "hate"
i am not here with the direct intent of pissing people of – i am merely putting across my point of view.
as someone else has posted here – this may be a privately owned website but it is not owned by you or subject to your take on things. as long as the webmaster and mods have no problems with what i say and how i say it there is no problem unless you wish to make it one for the sake of creating an argument.
need i remind you that it was one of your posts that was modded recently for directly attacking another member?
I wasn't referring to what you're saying as hate speech Jaffa. I know my post was moderated, I have no issue with that. I said what I felt was appropriate and the staff felt it was too confrontational and bordered on personal attack. That's their prerogative. Somehow, you've gathered that you must be one of the 5-6 I've been talking about. I assure you that you aren't. I may disagree with you but you never handle yourself poorly. I would point out who those 5-6 are, but I imagine the mods don't want me to do that or they would have done so themselves in the article.
People seem to have some idea that I'm against people not liking SGU and that couldn't be further from the truth. At many times the show just disgusts me. I'm by no means a fanboy. I very much preferred SGA and SG1 to SGU. I wish they were still on. However, a select small group has been demonizing the show and everything and everyone that has anything to do with it since day one and that is just stupid and pathetic. While any show would have its fans and detractors, these particulars have wrought fights and havoc in the comments section, deliberately derailing topics and insulting whoever dares to enjoy or be apart of the production of SGU. They've said for themselves that they don't watch, so I ask again, why are they here?
What would you call a person that goes to a site full of fans of a show they don't watch and proceeds to slander and stir up hate about it? I don't call it a person with an opposing view point in need of the understanding of free speech. That my friend is a text book troll:
"A person who posts to a forum or other form of online communication to disrupt or cause widespread argument."
That's what these few want here, to make intelligent debate about the show impossible by mucking things up with excessive hate and make it appear as if opinions are worse than they really are in the actual SGU fanbase.
Put it this way, if you aren't a fan of SGU, then why are you even in a thread about it? Why waste any time on a show you hate? Hell, if you watch the show and want to discuss what you thought was handled badly in an episode or overall, knock yourself out, that's what this is here for but if you don't watch the show and are just here to crap on it then that's unfair to the others coming here and shouldn't be permitted. I'm sure some of them will say they do watch it but then it begs the question of why they're watching a show they so obviously despise and have since its conception?! The final fact is that there is no viable excuse for what they are doing here, none. Keep the board free and open for actual positive/negative discussion but for the love of god, boot the trolls.
If that's not clear enough for you guys, then I give up because your just not being reasonable.
I've watched every episode of SG1/SGA/SGU at least twice. I own episodes and the movies. I know the show well. I am catching up now that the Tivo is grabbing new episodes.
I've been worried since the Maureen Ryan exchanges in the Chicago Tribune–so last night I created an account and wrote eighty or so words. I thought it was critical, thoughtful, funny and supportive.
And it was censored.
It is your site, and it is your perogative to censor me. But it is my time, and I am going to spend it on something else.
"Put it this way, if you aren't a fan of SGU, then why are you even in a thread about it? Why waste any time on a show you hate?[…]I'm sure some of them will say they do watch it but then it begs the question of why they're watching a show they so obviously despise and have since its conception?!"
Wow, great conversation-stopper right there.
They should try that in congress:
"Well senator, if you don't like this bill why do you even read it?If you don't like it, don't read it!"
WOW, what a great argument you have.
Did you just compare an elected officials constitutional responsibility to watching a TV show?! I think the negative side is getting so desperate for a home run that they're swinging wildly.
@Pot – You seem to have clearly made my point for me. Your whole post was dedicated to criticisms directed at me personally (the poster), and once again, emotions still were not checked at the door (indicated by comments made in capital letters).
I accept your criticisms of my comments, but taking my original entire post into full context, my comments and suggestions were meant for both pro-SGU people as well as for anti-SGU people. I was addressing everyone making comments here in regards to the topic of this article in which these comments are suppose to be about (i.e. Free Expression on GateWorld).
It's obviously clear that this one article isn't soliciting comments about SGU, but is about the fair and equal expressions in which people are using this forum when discussing the contents of the show, and more importantly 'how' these free expressions are being made about and to each other. Darren Sumner explained it perfectly when he said, "Words like "crap" and "stupid" and "idiot" aren't respectful to anyone, and we'll continue to delete posts where readers insist on voicing their discontent through hate and insult."
In conclusion, I'm not going to be drawn into a heated back and forth discussion about each others attack on another, or in defending my previous comments. They speak for themselves. What I will say is, Darren Sumner did one heck of a great job in writing the article I'm referring to with my two posts. Great job, Darren!
"Did you just compare an elected officials constitutional responsibility to watching a TV show?! I think the negative side is getting so desperate for a home run that they're swinging wildly."
We prefer the term "dark side"
BTW we have cookies.
Also, no, i did not compare a "[..]elected officials constitutional responsibility to watching a TV show[…]".
I did however compare the need for discussion (on any topic btw, from bills to tv series and glitter on my fingernails) vs your "shut up" trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlej4vq9mgmlvmg).
I'm still waiting for a rebuke from you on that.
The argument is inherently selfish, get over yourself.
How would i know if i like it without watching/reading/listening?
How can i form a coherent opinion without watching/reading/listening?
Its the whole hypocrisy of your statement.
For example, if i only watch SGUs pilot, you will tell me i clearly dont know enough about the show to form a coherent opinion.
If i watch S1 completely and comment on the episodes, you will complain that i shouldn't watch it if i dont like it.
Either way, theres no way for getting it right according to you, or IS there?
Enlighten me. How many episodes am i supposed to watch to not offend you either way?
I never stated that you were supposed to watch any amount of the show in order to make a comment. you missed my point entirely while you were busy thinking up a response. My entire argument was about the "trolls" and what they do, not the opinions, be them positive or negative, of the regular members. Do you believe yourself to be one of the trolls in question? If not, my argument simply does not apply to you.
To answer your question though, I never stated you had to watch any particular amount of the show in order to comment about it, only why would you bother to continue commenting on a show you don't watch and if you do watch it it still, then why keep watching a how you dislike? Don't tell me its because you want to see if it gets better since you've pretty much stated for the record that it will never and could never be good enough.
Face it, the argument that's flawed is your own. You believe that somehow because you've see the show that it gives you carte blanche to turn the comments area into a gripe-a-thon about how you can't believe Atlantis was shelved for SGU. Its been said, why not let it go? What do honestly hope to achieve by the continued barrage of SGU hate?
"I never stated that you were supposed to watch any amount of the show in order to make a comment. you missed my point entirely while you were busy thinking up a response. My entire argument was about the "trolls" and what they do, not the opinions, be them positive or negative, of the regular members. Do you believe yourself to be one of the trolls in question?"
No i do not.
Fair enough.
I watch the show because i like to be informed about my franchise.
Same as i went and watched Star Trek 2009, i hated it, and then bought the bluray dvd.
If a football-player is s**t in your favorite team, you dont stop rooting for the team, you just call out the sh**ty player.
[[[[Put it this way, if you aren't a fan of SGU, then why are you even in a thread about it? Why waste any time on a show you hate? Hell, if you watch the show and want to discuss what you thought was handled badly in an episode or overall, knock yourself out, that's what this is here for but if you don't watch the show and are just here to crap on it then that's unfair to the others coming here and shouldn't be permitted.]]]]
1. Your lack of understanding of why people do what they do is exactly the reason why you keep posting comments with flawed logic.
2. You assumed there is a direct relation between what people like and what people read and comment on GateWorld.
3. This is clearly an oversight on your part as you spent as much time reading and commenting on things you clearly hate.
4. The comments you hate, are not against the rules of GateWorld, and is allowed by the owner, so they are officially part of the site.
5. If you really believe in what you claim to stand for, you would simply ignore all the comments you hate, and would not spend the time to read and reply them, you might even ignore the entire site altogether.
6. Over and over again, your arguments was proven groundless, yet you keep retreating to personal feelings and label things as "troll"/"not fair" as last defense.
7. This is laughable as your personal feelings are not universal standards, they are not even the site owner's standards. As a matter of fact some of your comment was censored because of your so called "trolling".
8. By repeating the same flawed and groundless arguments, you've successfully reduced this discussion to "If DarkElfa don't like what you post, they should shut up or be banned", and of course, according to you this is fair, because deep down you still assume your feelings has more weight, and that is why this argument is still going on.
What it comes down to is there is clearly a logical loop hole in your head you seem to be unable to get out of. I'll point it out again for you and everyone once and for all:
By your definition you are my fan and you like my comments. Because only fans would keep spending the time to read and respond to something.
Alright gang, thanks for the long and generally fruitless discussion. I'm closing this thread because I am too weary to continue reading and moderating the same posts.
Have a nice day!
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