text:
Revealing tan line
Pretty sure he's bluffing and that the so-called moderate Republicans will step in before this happens, but (via)…..
Pressed again and again by host George Stephanopoulos about whether he'd prefer default to bringing up a clean debt limit bill, Boehner didn't flinch.
"I don't want the United States to default on its debt," he said. "But I'm not going to raise the debt limit without a serious conversation about dealing with problems that are driving the debt up. It would be irresponsible of me to do this."
Making real change requires sticking to what is right.
The Democrats can't use the not-raising-the-debt-ceiling-weapon because nobody believes they would really be that stupid.
He wants a serious conversation? Here's one: "Boehner, you really don't want to have the nation default on its obligations to pay its debt or for its governmental spending. It would be seriously dumb, irresponsible, and wrong to do that."
What would his reply be? "Uh, okay. Let's not do that then"?
If the Republicans really give a shit about debt and deficits, maybe they could come up with a balanced budget that isn't based on ten-year magical projections with fairy stardust and other bullshit. Maybe they could actually propose something that could be voted on that wouldn't make things worse. Maybe they could do that. But they don't want to. How do I know? Because the last time the government had a nearly-balanced budget, the Republicans complained about the difficulty of dealing with a surplus. They complained about the imagery of a government that took in as many taxes as it spent in dollars. They complained that their governmental prophecy of doom wouldn't work if there weren't debts and deficits to point to when Democrats came up with government programs that could help people. They then decided to reduce taxes and that deficits didn't matter (when Republicans were in charge.) Fuck those liars.
The definition of a game of hot potato is that no one wants to be the last one left holding it but no one is willing to take it off your hands either.
Sure, give him a serious conversation, everyday if he wants it; of course, that conversation will end with "fuck you", but it will be serious.
I used to think they weren't stupid enough to crash the world economy.
Look, asshole, no one is going to engage in a "serious conversation" when you're holding a revolver to the head of the World Economy.
Time to call in SEAL team 6 and end this shit.
The republicans got back the one thing they really wanted yesterday — all of the DoD "non essential " workforce is going back to work on Monday, thanks to a last minute deal. So the pressures off for them because that's the only thing they cared about, and the squawking and squealing for defense contractors was only pressure point for them. Why the dems and Obama agreed to this, I have no idea. Women and children can starve, but the war pig must be fed.
Awww…poor widdle Johnny. He just wants someone to talk to him.
two links:
one to stonekettle station, where I've always enjoyed a good read:
the other to the NYT:
Where it's suggested/indicated/alleged that the TP takes it's marching orders from the Koch Brothers and AFP and based on the comments that I've seen from Tea Party Congressman, its totally plausible….
@Villago Delenda Est: Salon had a story a few days ago where they interviewed reporters from other nations that work in DC about how they are reporting the government being shut down back home. It was depressing beyond words. They all said they didn't know how to report it cause nobody in their home country can understand how the nation that says we are the "greatest in the world" can't have a functioning government. The lady from Lebanon said she always felt her government was the most dysfunctional … well until she came to DC.
I watched this interview, and it's curious to see flopsweat in HD.
The rule is and always has been that you go full-tilt absolutist just before you cave. Boehner is in a corner grasping at so many straws he's starting to smoke them and drink through them, and if he's down to begging for just a "serious conversation," it's all over.
Here's a serious conversation for you:
Boehner: Mr. President, cave on Obamacare. Seriously.
Obama: No. That serious enough for you?" (Taking cue from Dangerman) While you're at it, fuck you. Seriously.
Thing is, they are doing a Hitler in the Bunker right now.
As soon as they realize they cannot possibly win, they will come up with a way of making sure everyone loses.
Orangeman keeps crawling further and further out on a limb every time he opens his mouth. It's going to be very hard to crawl back off of it. If it wasn't for the Cruz caucus who really are willing to go over the debt limit I would agree that it is just tough talk prior to raising the limit. The longer this goes on and the more shrill the rhetoric the smaller the margin for error becomes.
Just down the road from where Union troops suffered their worst defeat of the Civil War, Jeff Epperson sang the praises of his congressman, Representative Tom Graves, whose Defund Obamacare Act set the table for the partial government shutdown.
This is the kind of thing I love about the modern GOP. They're so dumb … wait for it … the acronym of their signature legislative proposal is DOA.
Anybody else catching echoes of Peggy Noonan on Saddam's WMD in that formulation, "It would be irresponsible not to speculate"?
I thought I saw a different House rep saying something similar; maybe they're pivotting from shuttin' her down to stop Obamacare towards "we gotta fix de debt"?
A Federal Budget Crisis Months in the Planning
WASHINGTON — Shortly after President Obama started his second term, a loose-knit coalition of conservative activists led by former Attorney General Edwin Meese III gathered in the capital to plot strategy. Their push to repeal Mr. Obama's health care law was going nowhere, and they desperately needed a new plan.
Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed "blueprint to defunding Obamacare," signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.
It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government.
@Mustang Bobby: I agree that they are always the most intransigent and insulting right before they capitulate. But what scares me about this is in reading about the reception of this kind of right wing talk among the true believers. Its very, very, clear that every time Boehner et al speak in this way their base voters, the tea party types etc… lose a few more braincells and become even more intransigent.
Sure, I think Boehner will cave (I hope so anyway) and I think in doing so he will be labeled a Rino and lose some face with his own party. But the rump remnants will continue to be completely astounded and ill informed about what just happened. They will continue to believe that what was at issue was just a "failure of the will" and they will redouble their efforts to create another situation in which will overcomes politics. If you read what right wingers say during all these interviews about Obamacare or the shutdown they simply have no way of understanding what is being said on national tv or how our government works. I despair for my country when I see Boehner saying this shit unchallenged on the news because its adding to the problem even if he eventually caves.
A Serious Conversation, in one line:
"Raise the debt ceiling, and then we'll consider talking."
I am less worried about a GOP created global shitstorm than I am about the absence of an open NFL thread.
Go team?
The longer this goes on, the more I want the Republicans charged with treason.
Let's see…are there frightened civilians hiding in UBahn stations that we can release the river Spree into? That would insure that a lot of people lose, and by gosh, they deserve it, too, for failing their Führer
Apologies to Godwin.
Thing is, they are doing a Hitler in the Bunker right now.
As soon as they realize they cannot possibly win, they will come up with a way of making sure everyone loses.
At least Hitler killed himself. Don't think we'll be as lucky with the GOP.
The sad thing is I believe Boner has lost control of his caucus, I'm not convinced anyone could make it functional. But the end result is we are either going to cave of they will set the world on fire. They have decided its not so bad like everyone says so buckle your seatbelts, its going to be a bumpy flight. I hope it will not be as bad as we think it will be, I just don't see anyway we will not get to find out unless we surrender & that is a disaster that wll be replayed on every topic so we are fucked that way too.
The definition of a game of hot potato is that no one wants to be the last one left holding it but no one is willing to take it off your hands either.
They could pass the hot potato to the President, who I think would be willing to take it. Remember the McConnell solution the last time we stared into this particular abyss? "President has the authority to raise the debt limit, but Congress can override with a supermajority vote in both chambers". That was a one-off, but if they offered to make that permanent (and hence make the President the one who takes the (silly) political heat for raising the limit), that would be a way out.
@Scott S.: I think 'sedition' is the proper term. But yes.
I personally wouldn't want to be Louie Gohmert's bitch, but apparently Boehner's fine with that.
What, "a serious conversation about dealing with problems that are driving the debt up"? I'm having trouble thinking of a vaguer precondition. And since, these days, the deficit is decreasing:
it's really no precondition at all.
@aimai: If he caves on the debt, the government is still be shut down. If the deal is to combine the CR and debt then in 6 weeks we will be right back at this again. One republican suggestion was to appoint a committee (how about Super Committee) to resolve the differences over the next 6 weeks. The tea party will be even madder (in all meanings of the word) in 6 weeks
We have seen this movie before and it doesn't end well. Even if we avoid all of the doomsday scenarios, this time, to the rest of the world we look like smacked-as****
but Congress can override with a supermajority vote in both chambers"
Good luck with that, turtle.
Time to call in SEAL team 6 and end this shit.
You're going to outrage burnsie with that talk.
@Violet: you, too.
The "debt" is window dressing for the REAL problem, which is the ni*CLANG*.
@Villago Delenda Est: That's exactly the point. It lets the President do the serious work of keeping the country running and lets Congress do what Congress does best, which is to say posture meaninglessly.
Who was it that passed the "irresponsible" budgets requiring the debt ceiling be raised? Why – LOOK! – t was Congress! Who is responsible for bringing the budget to the House floor? Why Boehner – that guy who is now saying he won't raise the debt ceiling to fund the Federal government at the levels he pushed and voted for.
Lying asswipe alcoholic fuckhead.
@rikyrah: A few months ago my mom was in the ICU for a month. Then two weeks at a rehab clinic. Guess what they paid? Nothing, not a penny and my parents get their healthcare from the government (dad worked for the DoD for 30+ years). I mentioned to my Republican father I wanted some of that.
Heck when he was over the other day I showed him my HealthCare.gov account, where I am going to save $100/month. I was like look dad that is amazing. That is groceries for a week. Or heck if I want, I could get the most expensive "Gold" plan and pay what I am already paying.
As many have said the Republicans HATE this plan cause it is going to work. And once it does, they will never be able to get rid of it.
This is where having a functioning media would be a huge help.
Green shoots from the NYTimes today with its "this shutdown did not just happen" story.
Boehner didn't deny that he initially agreed to a "clean" continuing resolution with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) but said "I and my members decided the threat of Obamacare and what was happening was so important that it was time for us to take a stand. And we took a stand." … "I thought the fight would be over the debt ceiling," he said. "But you know, working with my members, they decided, well, let's do it now."
So let's get this straight:
Boehner had a deal with the President and the Senate Majority Leader to pass a "clean" CR at sequester levels (which means it isn't really clean, but never mind).
Then he went to his caucus, and they wouldn't follow through on it. Rather than keep his word on the deal he had already negotiated, Boehner decided to fold to his caucus and bring the country to default.
And now he wants to know why the President won't negotiate with him?
Let me answer that one for you Mister Speaker: Because you don't control your caucus and you can't keep your word. Why the hell should the President and the Senate Majority Leader talk to you? Anything they negotiate with you will be ignored by your caucus anyway. They may as well negotiate Ted Cruz for all you can do.
Or better yet, not negotiate at all, which is the strategy the President and Reid have properly decided upon. The House Republicans can either pass the negotiated CR (I refuse to call anything that continues the sequester "clean"), or your party can take the blame for the shutdown and the rapidly approaching default.
Sounds to me like Boner and the Repubs are taking ownership of the default. Am I missing something?
Serious question: why don't they just cut to the chase, and demand the President's resignation in exchange for funding the govt and raising the debt ceiling?
The teabag position is that "the House has the power of the purse, so there is nothing illegitimate about refusing to fund things they don't like." So why would they agree to find the govt at all until they get their preferred Executive?
Cool, Boehner is open to the idea of making all republicans resign so we can get rid of those who spend uncontrollably.
And in a nauseating slight of hand, the media is helping turn the discussion about the imbecility and recklessness of the republicans to hold this country hostage about Obama care as somehow justified, because you know, there are ALL THESE PROBLEMS with people accessing the Exchange web sites…
I hate these people. Hate them.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they are willing to destroy this country to bring chaos on — anything to forestall a future United States governed by its growingly diverse population rather than old white men. They will stop at nothing.
@Elmo: MSNBC had Peter King on a few weeks ago. After the Republicans released their long list of demands. Sam Stein reads them to King and said, "hey why don't you just add revoking the results of the 2012 Presidential election while you are at it?" Everybody kind of had that awkward laugh, cause it really wasn't that funny.
Fri Oct 04, 2013 at 09:53 AM PDT
GOP Wants Nothing We Dems Have To Offer In Trade…
by cskendrick
but our political extinction.
You cannot look at the standoff in Washington as an exercise in game theory, or in terms of rational self-interest, or even in terms of political gamesmanship.
If you do, you are going to be magnificently wrong in your assessment of Republicans' perceptions, assessments of conditions, decisions based on those assessments, motivations and reactions to your own existence and behavior, and the more subtle clues of mobilization, communications and morale.
Last but not least, you are going to come up with a completely wrong synthesis of WTF Are These People Up To?
Thing is, the President doesn't seem to be very good at destroying America. So the Tea Partiers, the energizing heart of the modern Republican Party, are very thoughtfully helping him fulfill the destiny they've assigned him.
You might wonder what does default get them?
One, it destroys the reputation of Obama's presidency.
Two, it moots any issue about Obamacare; defunding's a given.
Three, it defunds everything else.
Four, if the government ever plans to borrow ever again it will have to do so at much higher interest rates. That will crowd out ALL domestic spending programs, even force the government to lapse some of them
Five, there will be far less money to fund national security initiatives among them drones and NSA super surveillance
Six, because it kicks Democrats' asses, that's why. Less crassly, it's a specific, achievable goal with immense impact that accomplishes specific ideological ends in which Republicans and Tea Partiers in particular embrace.
Seven, a hollowed-out catastrophically underfunded Federal government will be incapable of stopping subsequent initiatives toward the goal of creating a much more conservative-friendly regime.
Eight, yeah about 2014 elections. We'll probably have them but, wow. Polling places are expensive to maintain so we'll be consolidating those. You know, since the default… there's just no money…
And this is why I think Democrats have nothing to offer in trade that Republicans want in lieu of the default.
They get everything they want by pushing America over the edge.
And indeed, that IS what they are trying and have been trying to do all along. By any means necessary.
The GOP does, in fact, intend to have a credit default.
I do think that the GOP does not actually know that it intends to have a default.
But, it does.
Let them have their default. They need to have one, give it it to them.
The country will just have to live with the consequences as best it can.
The GOP will learn whether or what it wants is worth having.
Having is not the same as wanting.
"I don't want the United States to default on its debt," he said. "But I'm not going to raise the debt limit without a serious conversation about dealing with problems that are driving the debt up. It would be irresponsible of me to do this."
ORLY? You're ready to talk about those taxes that you've been cutting and cutting and cutting for over thirty years with absolutely no benefit to the public, which has been stuck at the same wage level while cost of living rises all over the place? You're ready to talk about those arms buildups and wars you keep putting on the national credit card? For that matter, you're willing to talk about the health care system you want to return to – you know, the one that spends more than any other health care system in the developed world but still didn't manage to cover everyone?
Shut the fuck up, Boehner. You don't want a "conversation" and you don't care about the "deficit." We've given you and yours more than enough chances to prove that you care about both.
More of the talking heads should ask that question. Because the Teabag logic leads inexorably to that conclusion.
@Tommy: Democrats would do better to push this line as the intent of the GOP. "What the GOP seems to want is to invalidate the results of the 2012 election–to invalidate the decision of the American people. Is that what you want [Republican rep]? Get them on record saying that no, they don't want to invalidate the election. Then watch the Teabaggers' heads explode as Republican after Republican turns into a RINO.
This is nothing other than an insurrection by another name.
Our people need to start thinking about getting into the streets… we cannot let them win this passively just taking notes about what they are doing. This is not about anything related to governing by this constitution. This is trying to usurp the current rule of law and goverment structure and replace it with rule by a minority and it must be said to be that. Openly.
@dmsilev: Insurrection, I think.
They swore an oath, you know. Can't they get in trouble over breaking it?
Thing is, they are doing a Hitler in the Bunker right now.
As soon as they realize they cannot possibly win, they will come up with a way of making sure everyone loses.
Or maybe they've already realized it and this is just the opening salvo in their "everybody loses" plan.
@Tommy: That's exactly what they want. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they introduce a bill to impeach the kenyan and install mittbot as their prezinent.
Yep, that's what scares me too. Comparisons to the Gilded Age don't quite work; the 1% in those days never had as radicalized and fanaticized a base to depend on as the current ones do.
At many levels I don't think the Republicans even understand what is going on. I like to joke I made a good living by knowing what I don't know and asking those smarter then me for help. I always felt it was a sign of intelligence to admit I don't know everything. I don't think most of the Republicans even understand what happens if we default. I mean TPM had that amazing video of Chuck Todd of all people, explaining to some Congress Critter what a default really means.
OT I am at the comiccon in Dallas. We are listening to John Barrowman. He's having a lot of fun.
And yet everyone got excited when NYT reported that Orange Julius said he wouldn't default on the U.S. debt. These fuckers neglected to highlight that he didn't say anything about 'no strings attached'.
These fuckers are crazy. People think Orange Julius is reasonable, but he's just as unreasonable (along with being an intoxicated tan man) as the rest of these shitheads.
And this is starting to impact us in other ways – we're giving ground to China because Obama can't be at important trade conferences there, because he has to handle domestic terrorists in Congress.
The moneymen in the GOP need to tell these shitheads to get off the pot, or they will never give them any money, ever again. A clear, binary choice – become a regional rump party that has zero money to build infrastructure to ever win a national election again; or fund the government and stop being unreasonable.
Doesn't Boehner realize that if we default, it will cost us even more to borrow money?
@Tommy: these guys in the Tea Party are just spear carriers for the Kochs and America for Progress people, they get their talking points weekly and regurgitate them at need, like a wind up toy that is microphone activated. In the past, you could reason with a person, these guys are paid for automatons and as long as they can cash their checks, they could give a fuck, it's I got Mine and Fuck YOU.
@Keith P.: you think they give a shit? Anyone notice the Republican Fiscal restraint during the Bush years? Defecits only matter when the placehodler in the WH is affiliated with the D brand of politics.
Here's some serious conversation: You know what would drive up the debt right quick? A default leading to global devaluation of T-bills. Default would instantly increase our cost of borrowing, so that our debt would cost us more.
Every time that man opens his mouth he says something that shows his contempt for the American electorate. He never stops insulting the intelligence of the people who are forced to listen to him.
Don't you think that money isn't behind them? Seriously — how could this be happening without a fair amount of money and/power of some sort standing them up?
We have to start calling this what it is – not a political tactic to win in the current system, but an attempt to usurp power and destroy the system and government at any cost.. willingness to endanger the economic and yes, even military security of this country to have a small minority assert its own agenda to invalidate the last election. That is it. Call it out — that is all it is.
He never stops insulting the intelligence of the people who
are forced to listen toelected him.
@Keith P.: Boehner and the tea partiers don't care about that–they don't think in specifics or realities. They will just fold the fact that we now have to pay more in interest into the indignity of having to borrow at all. It will just "prove their point" that we are a debtor nation and thats embarrassing for us.
@Elmo: My brother married into a Tea Party family years ago. I recall being at her parents house for Thanksgiving and they going on and on about Obama is a Muslim. He wasn't born in the US. He won't say the Pledge of Allegiance. All that BS. Now I normally don't force my views down the throat of others, but my father could see I was about to explode. My father isn't a liberal to say the least.
He puts his hand on my arm and gave me this look like "I got this Tommy." He went on to explain he doesn't like Obama. Did not vote for him. But all this stuff you are saying just isn't accurate, and frankly it is embarrassing. I've never been more proud of my father.
This by Chait of how Juan Linz (great poli sci guy who just passed) predicted American politics today. Really worth the read
@Keith P.:
Don't you get it? They/He doesnt care!!! They want to bring it down.. Those of you who are thinking that they don't know what they are doing, are wrong. They know precisely and know that there is probably no organized plan from either the administration or Democratic leadership to deal with a true insurrection scenario. (I truly hope that they have at least thought about or modeled it). As I have sat back and watched and listened, I just don't see that there is any other explanation.
This whole thing can be summarized in 3 words: Respect my authoritah!
"It's amazing how we can be completely irrelevant and shut down Congress at the same time," one of the movement's early organizers, Mark Meckler, chortled at a Saturday evening gathering at the weekend state Republican party convention in Anaheim.
Minutes earlier, Tim Donnelly, a former Minuteman border watch leader who is the movement's favored candidate for governor, rolled into the meeting to a standing ovation from nearly 200 tea party supporters.
"And they say the tea party is dead?" he opened.
@Chris: The irony of all this is the 1% has convinced the GOP 47% that it is the interest of Joe Sixpack or Joe the plumber to hand over their paychecks to the Koch Brothers. The base doesn't even demand Vaseline while they are being screwed.
This goes beyond jokes and American domestic policy. It is having an impact on Americans abilty to function in the world. A quoted From C. Dickey over at the Daily Beast – 'For Rouhani, the essential question is whether he's got the backing of Iran's Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei. For Obama, the problem is—one almost hates to say this—Congress. And not the least of the complications is that Khamenei is watching what's happening on Capitol Hill and wondering if there's any prayer that Obama can keep commitments made in the negotiations.'
Now obviously the Iranians are going to be tough negotiators but at some point in these talks as in any others, the other guy has to believe that POTUS can keep his end of the deal. If they see that they are dealing with a government that is so irresponsible as to shut itself down and default on it's debt then they will not take our word on anything.
@Keith P.: They don't fucking care.
In the end, this is about fucking over the black man in the White House.
It has NOTHING to do with Obamacare, the debt, the deficit – any of that shit.
At its core, this boils down to burning down the country and the economy over the color of Barack Obama's skin. Period.
The problem is, what you say about OJ seems to be equally true of all the money people. All the evidence says that the Kochs, Murdochs, Adelsons and Scaifes of the world are every bit as radicalized as crazy as the teabagger base. And my guess is that there are plenty of others who, while maybe not quite as crazy, aren't ready to jump off the teabagger bandwagon because they see it as too useful an attack dog (e.g. they may not want a default but would rather bet on Obama caving so that it won't come to that, than turn on their peers and their electoral base).
@piratedan: As a kid I had to be at home everyday at 5:30 to eat dinner as a family. We sit and talk about our days. What was happening in the world. I didn't even know my parents were Republicans until later in my life, cause they never forced their views down my throat. I like to joke they let me figure shit out for myself.
But I wasn't allowed to say stupid shit. Things that were not factual.
However I just watched the Sunday talking heads and folks were saying things that are not factual. And folks getting paid a ton of money to report to me the news, can't seem to note it. Makes me mad at levels I can't put to words.
So the house repubs are like cornered rabid dogs. How are they supposed to back down, huh? They have no way out except with their tails between their legs, and their "pride" will not allow them to do that.
I don't care how badly this ends, I just hope Obama and Reid and Pelosi hold their positions of Never Surrender……
@Chris: who says they don't want default? Their economy is very different than ours.
Excellent piece (though scary as hell). Thanks for sharing. I think its basically right in what the resolution must be. I would add, however, that its getting time for citizens to act and to start putting our energy behind this process to uphold the constitution and the law.
@Tommy: when the program directors at the networks and your own personal politics insist that you be nothing more than a stenographer and those participating show no lack of knowledge on the subjects that they are asking questions about or even the slightest bit of investigative curiosity regarding the positions and the goals and possible effects, well then you have our current media.
part of the problem indeed, I would imagine that we would see an uptick in reporting if it was done by a group of 10th graders during class time regarding Civics. The current dopes probably haven't as much depth as the cartoons from America Rock.
I agree, but the people need to be overt in our support as this wears on… I think seeing thousands in the streets protesting the Republican behavior would definitely catch their attention. Without that, we are just taking notes and their power is allowed to seem equal to the President's. We won the last election and we have to show it.
The irony of all this is the 1% has convinced the GOP 47% that it is the interest of Joe Sixpack or Joe the plumber to hand over their paychecks to the Koch Brothers. The base doesn't even demand Vaseline while they are being screwed.
Yep. Like I said yesterday in another conversation, at some point red state resentment for Wall Street's economic power stopped being a thing, or at least was subsumed by their hatred of all these other liberal demographics.
This goes beyond jokes and American domestic policy. It is having an impact on Americans abilty to function in the world. A quoted From C. Dickey over at the Daily Beast – 'For Rouhani, the essential question is whether he's got the backing of Iran's Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei. For Obama, the problem is—one almost hates to say this—Congress. And not the least of the complications is that Khamenei is watching what's happening on Capitol Hill and wondering if there's any prayer that Obama can keep commitments made in the negotiations.'
Never thought of it that way, but you're right. As much as people are concerned that Rouhani may not have the authority to deliver, the same may be true of Obama.
Is it possible that the GOP's takeaway from the 2008 crash is that you get to wreck the economy with no consequences?
Who's "they?" I'm sure there's quite a few who either do or don't care, but I don't think that's all of them. What I'm saying (speculation I admit) is that those of them who don't have probably convinced themselves that it won't come to that and that their allies are just trying to get Obama to cave first. (Doesn't really make a difference, of course, and my basic point was that their money people seem to be all in behind the teabaggers for one reason or another).
I am watching Rand Paul on Meet The Press. I want to throw something listening him talk about the ACA.
Let me tell a somewhat personal story. In 2001 I almost died. I caught this rare virus and ended up in the hospital with a tube down my throat for a week.
I had healthcare since I was in the womb. In my adult life I had the best of the best. I literally NEVER used it. Outside of this one case I am blessed with amazing health.
I lost my job during the dot.com thing and used COBRA for awhile. Then I got a monthly plan through Fortis (they got sued so much they have since changed their name). I literally got sick as the paperwork sat on some desk somewhere and they refused to pay. I had bills of more than $50,000.
Long story short I would have lost everything, if my parents were not somewhat rich and they had my back.Things like this just shouldn't happen. But it happens all the darn time.
At its core, this boils down to burning down the country and the economy over the color of Barack Obama's skin. Period.
I disagree.
It's because President Obama is a Democrat, and the far right does not believe any group other than themselves has legitimacy to govern.
They wrap themselves in the U.S. Constitution, but do not believe in the peaceful transfer of power from themselves and will abrogate citizens' right to vote in order to keep themselves in office.
Yes, the furor is at 150% because we have a black Democrat in the White House.
But putting all this down to skin color is too simplistic.
@👾 Martin:
"And they say the tea party is dead?" he opened.
That's it, guy. Keep bragging. Make sure everyone knows that the teabaggers are behind the whole thing. Make sure everyone knows where the teabaggers live. Make sure there aren't any government employees around to keep the 911 system active.
This sounds completely unrelated, but I was recently re-reading "Deep Survival", by Richard Gonzalez. He presents several case studies of people who survived near death experiences in the outdoors and the qualities that seemed to be associated with their survival compared to those who did not survive. One thing sticks out for me — the people who survived, early on accepted that they were in deep shit and exerted positive decision making to make the best of their situation. If they were lost, they stopped wandering and tried to stay put. They built shelters and conserved their food and resources.
The administration and WE have to start getting our heads out of the notion that they are going to back down and into managing what is next when they don't. This is war by other means and our survival and the survival of this country that we are committed to and love. I only have to get my nose bloodied a couple of times to reach for the effing bat.
@Elizabelle: this. BTW did you know that Hillary has large thighs. A political button tells me so.
Never thought of it that way, but you're right. As much as people are concerned that Rouhani may not have the authority to deliver, the same may be true of Obama.
This was stated outright by one of the legislative leaders in Asia – that they would be better off relying on China than the US because the US is now an unreliable partner that can't even be trusted to attend summits as promised.
Yes, the furor is at 150% because we have a black Democrat in the White House.
But putting all this down to skin color is too simplistic.
Completely agree. They'd be just as furious and willing to burn down the economy because the president was a woman. Or a white guy who went to an Ivy League school. Or a white guy who attended a state school in the south, as long as he had a (D) after his name.
Okay — got it.
Not to be snarky, but so what's next?
Is it possible that the GOP's takeaway from the 2008 crash is that you get to wreck the economy with no consequences?
Was the GOP's takeaway since long before that. Reagan's deficits. Bush's deficits and unfunded wars. When have Republicans paid any price for ruining the economy?
@Elizabelle: I think you can take it down to an even deeper level.
What is it that motivates Joe The Plumber to vote for politicians who will shred the safety net and force Joe to decide between feeding his kids or buying meds for one of them? None the talking heads or their talking parrot guests will have to face that dilemma but Joe keeps voting for the Koch brothers interests not his own.
@rikyrah: That's an impressive list, and I think you're right about their thinking. And indeed, the default would be blamed on Obama because it happened under his watch.
However, I'm not sure the Koch brothers will want a default. It would kinda put a crimp in their income. Even theirs.
I'm betting on a default petition actually succeeding for once. I think that, or the 14th Amendment, is the only way out, whatever Obama's legal team thinks.
They indeed are trying to overthrow the legal government of the U.S. The Civil War didn't work out for them, so now that they've finally got enough power back, they're trying this.
@Elie: I tend to agree. I am a raging liberal, but can also be heard saying "can't we all get along?" I don't want to blow shit up to make my point. But I can't get around the fact I think we have to.
Well whatever happens, we will see it continue to happen for three years. And after that until someone figures out how to relieve a few billionaires of their funding.
I am so glad you read it and liked it (well like is the wrong word, since it is a very scary analysis of where we are).
I find that even among some poli sci people there is a strange green lanterism that if only Obama knew how to negotiate or lead or something (heard this yesterday from some friends at lunch). This is a constitutional crisis and the only way out may be Obama breaking a constitutional norm, because these people are nothing short of a nullification aspiring group of a-holes.
serious conversation about dealing with problems that are driving the debt up. It
Why , why don't they point out that the deficit has been going down steadily and is the lowest for the past five years whenever someone brings up the debt boogey-man?
My concern is that there may not be a rules based way to get out of this… that Obama may need to break the rules and then that puts everyone outside of any Constitutional means to fix the situation.
Again, we are wasting time thinking this is going to resolve at some last minute by Boehner caving. We have to assume he won't and I hope that we have a plan in mind for that…
@liberal: The Obamacare zombie apocalypse came and went. The GOP is now desperate to come up with a way to justify this whole mess they brought down upon themselves.
Basically the problem for the Teatard's in congress is the only way to resolve this mess for them to appear to cave. Even if the Dems gave them everything that would smack of compromise.
What makes this so dangerous is that getting outside the rule of the Constitution places the whole thing in a place without rules. Maybe we can't avoid it but its extremely dangerous because then the rules are set by and during unpredictable situations…
Just got polled by Gallup. Told them I approved of how BHO is doing his job.
I think it's basically the same thing. They hate black, Hispanic, Asian and other Democrats because they're lousy stinking darkies. But they hate white Democrats because they're lousy stinking darkie-lovers. The hatred for Democrats is all about skin color (and a few other identity markers, like gender, sexuality and religion), regardless of whether the party's official face is white or black.
@TAPX486: A few months ago BP came into my little rural town and bought a locally owned gas station. They wanted to improve the parking lot, but used non-Union labor. There was a picket line and at least where I live you don't fuck with unions. I don't know anybody that would cross a picket line and they quickly decided to use union labor.
I note this cause a lot of the folks I know loved this happened, but vote Republican. I am like those two things don't compute. I mean the folks that live next to me are a public school teacher and a union carpenter. Repbulican. It hurts my head they had a tea party sign on their lawn for a millionaire that had never worked a day in his life running for our open Congress seat.
@Tommy: It's interesting that your Tea Party in-laws had to quote made-up crap to justify their hatred and anger. Unlike your father, policy differences weren't what they wanted to talk about. That suggests that the hatred and anger came first and they had to look for justifications because on some level they knew policy differences weren't sufficient reason for what they felt.
shelly, get real. We are way past that in this situation — way past rational discourse and reality..
We are in a very dangerous and irational situation… stop trying to make sense to the parties holding us hostage. We have been waiting for signs that they are willing to talk and make rational concessions but they are instead continuing to hold the gun to the head of this country and are ratchetting up their threats. What is the non-violent sniper in this situation? Any ideas?
oh I agree I just think Chait (via Linz) is right that the rules we have are not withstanding the assault of the nihilists on the other side. I am not advocating anything drastic but he may have to be creative with the 14th amendment (which some do recognize as a way out)
Yep — something —
Very sad sad time — very.
Oh to be a fly on the wall at Camp David or wherever PBO and his advisers are today.
@rikyrah: I wish you didn't sound so right.
The cannons are loaded and pointed at Fort Sumter.
Obama can't back down here any more than Lincoln could in the spring/summer of 1861, and I don't think he will. I think he's through negotiating with these people, especially considering that he apparently HAD a deal with Boehner a few weeks ago that the Speaker wouldn't or couldn't keep. Boner is not a credible negotiating partner. His word can't be trusted.
So, where are we?
A week before the cannons fire I think. Even if Boner wanted to buck the TPers, I'm not sure he can.
Question: how are you guys dealing with the people in your life that you love who are GOP? I have one friend who was a liberal Democrat up until about 10 months ago, when something in his brain clicked over from reason to TP. He is now a full-blown TPer who posts racist pictures of Obama…and he actually voted for Obama twice and about a year ago was very concerned that Romney would win. But earlier this year, he suddenly switched over to being a conservative Republican.
He was my best friend. I don't know how to handle this really. What do you do with people like that? Do you cut them out of your life?
Randall Cobb!
@FDRLincoln: I 86'd my half-brother 10 months ago.
@IowaOldLady: I do think a lot of it comes down to racism. I hate to say that, but I think it is true. I now live in a place that is 98.7% white. If I don't leave my little town I can go days and not see anybody that isn't as white as I am. But (1) I am a military brat, so racial integration was just a fact of life and (2) I once lived in NE and SE DC, where I was about the only white dude around.
I think the lack of racial diversity leads to folks being racist. That they have no interaction with people that don't look like themselves so they buy into stereotypes.
I posted this on thread below:
Obama has nerves of steel and he hasn't yet revealed his hand, the tea-party loons are looking more and more desperate and crazy. They are revealing who they really are. It is doesn't look to me like they are winning, false bravado != Winning.
Also, I do think what Obama's gone through has taken it to a far greater degree than it ever was before… and I think a big chunk of that is because he's black (just the "he's Muslim" "he wasn't born in America" et al stuff would never fly if he was a white man with a Southern drawl like Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton, for example).
I also think another part of it, however, is simply the fact that they've had a further decade to radicalize themselves, sink deeper into craziness, lock themselves up even more thoroughly in their echo chamber (Fox News was just getting off the ground in the Clinton years, for example, and there was no equivalent to the extensive blogosphere they have now). That plus their rage at the Bush presidency. Not at Bush, but at the fact that they were just coming off of eight years of control of the government (four of them in complete control of all three branches) and it still didn't turn out the way they wanted it to, either in terms of results (the wars weren't quick and easy victories, the economy got worse instead of better, crises like Katrina demonstrated incompetence rather than manly toughness) or in terms of politics (instead of the public falling in love with Bush, they ended up reviling him more than any president since Carter, maybe even Nixon).
Bottom line – it was always going to be bad, and it was always going to be worse than last time (though the black president gave them an opportunity to make it even worse than it would otherwise have been).
In any rules based system, all parties have to be willing to abide by those rules. The Constitution is a set of rules, at its simplest core. No rules based system can survive without being honored and upheld beyond just the words. The spirit and intent must also be upheld, and what we see now is the Tea Party/Republicans are pretending to follow the words while truly undermining the spirit and intent of the words, making our government and its good faith hollow and ineffective. They are turning loose a very very wicked genie that once out will not easily be put back, even by their own efforts…
Those of you opining upstring about the comments of those countries attending the Asia summit actually don't get it. Obama realizes that the survival of our system is at a critical point and the last thing we need to worry about right now is trade with Asia. We have to survive as a country to have a trade pact with any nation. If we survive, we will be in a truly much stronger position than ever before. This is a bitchin Constitutional crisis of the first order.
@FDRLincoln: I am pretty pissed off with a friend of mine right now.
I am still trying to figure out why anyone is giving the orange drunk the benefit of the doubt and that he is not insane. His tenure as speaker has been awful. He is ineffective, and incompetent. Now maybe no one on his side of the aisle would be able or willing to be better, but that is not a point in his favor.
He likes the limelight, even when it burns him. He likes the prestige of the job, even though he is destroying any prestige of the job.
I'm just not convinced that he is anything but one of the crazy crusaders of the Greasy Old Poop party.
Anyone care to try to persuade me otherwise?
Destruction of the Federal government is the TPer goal, or at least the goal of the people funding the TP.
I don't see how this gets resolved in the long run. I really don't. Even if it is somehow diffused this time, it will just keep coming up and coming up until the entire system collapses or until there is bloodshed or both.
All it takes to destroy a country is a small fanatical minority with lots of money behind them.
@FDRLincoln: I've occasionally had friends go off on strange political or religious binges, and I usually cut back contact. For sure, I reduce intimacy and just make friendly comments to keep our options open for when/if they return to rationality.
Do you cut them out of your life?
Sometimes sanity demands it.
@FDRLincoln: Well I guess you should just fight then!
My friend's wife is still a liberal, so I'm not sure how she is dealing with his switch to TP. They seem to be getting along OK. Maybe they just don't talk about it.
Irony: they are both schoolteachers. By switching over to TP, he is putting his own livelihood at stake. Funny thing, he used to argue how stupid it was for average people to vote GOP. And now he's doing it himself.
We have to assume he won't and I hope that we have a plan in mind for that…
I strongly doubt Obama will do anything. He's balancing an attempt by congress to assume extra-constitutional powers with the temptation to solve the problem by having the presidency assume extra-constitutional powers. I bet he doesn't do anything.
Obama needs to set two precedents here, and they are both critical to the future of our democracy: (1) Congress cannot use the debt limit to hold the country hostage. and (2) The president cannot ignore the will of congress.
That means he does nothing. He's not going to negotiate because he cannot. It's not "he won't", it's "he can't."
I'm fairly sure Boehner is clear on this. I'm not sure he's willing to sacrifice his party to save the union. Ultimately, that is precisely what it will come down to for Boehner. He can break the Hastert rule and move forward. He can do nothing and do incredible harm to the country. I am hoping that Boehner realizes that both of those end with his party destroyed.
Scary stuff either way.
There will be a LOT of noise over the next week or two. The Tea Party is slowly going to realize they are trapped. Trapped animals scream.
What sucks it, we are all trapped with them.
Raven: Huh? I'm ready to fight, not kill myself.
That is what's so interesting. Obama has not said a thing, and is watching the crazy play out.
@piratedan: Thanks for the link to Stonekettle Station – love his 'no BS' manner. Sharing it far and wide.
@Elie: We should have basic norms we work with. I mentioned above my brother married into a Tea Party family. He knows I am a raging liberal. Before the first time I went to their house he asked me not to attack them. I am like Jeff I would NEVER do that. I respect you love your wife I got no desire to fight with your family. That would just be rude. I have the ability to walk away from a fight not to make your life more difficult. I mean we are adults, I am in their home, I am sure I could talk to them about the weather or the St. Louis Cardinals.
He was my best friend. I don't know how to handle this really. What do you do with people like that? Do you cut them out of your life?
I pretty much do, but I've never had to deal with it with a really close friend. The closest is probably my Appalachian uncle and his two sons, that I used to be pretty close to as a kid/teenager. I ignore their Facebook, they mostly ignore mine, and at family reunions we usually talk about something else (if he starts talking politics with another member of the family, I'll stay out of it).
It's the only way to deal. I've found that I'm okay keeping up with Republicans as long as there's something, anything, to talk about other than politics (movies, TV, sports, games, how's-the-family, common areas of interests… wev). If they absolutely can't STFU about politics, well, I don't have time for that shit, so yeah, I pretty much just cut them out.
I think it's worth remembering that a little over 100 years ago, the monarchy of Hawaii was overthrown by a coalition of American business interests.
I have little doubt that the present day coalition of the Kochs, Adelson, et al. are determined to do the same to our current government.
@FDRLincoln: Good, you were sounding awfully defeatist there!
He was my best friend. I don't know how to handle this really. What do you do with people like that? Do you cut them out of your life?
Wow, that drastic a change in attitude, I'd almost suspect something medical. Not joking
@Elizabelle: I don't think so…with these shitheads, it's all about the simple stuff. They ain't playing eleven-dimension chess.
@Gypsy Howell: "Why the dems and Obama agreed to this, I have no idea"
Obama should have vetoed with a message that he would sign it when the CR passes and debt limit is raised. And not before.
Did not the law apply to all furloughed Federal employees, not just DOD?
HAHAHAHA – Bonehead thinks he has a spine as he talks so tough but it is just the kock sucker brothers dick's up his ass causing bonehead to continue his sad bluff. The joke, as the teabaggers will show this asswipe, is on him.
Two different things. House yesterday passed a bill for backpay for all furloughed employees. The DoD thing is based on a prior bill ensuring that troops would be paid. Apparently, it was written so loosely that DoD felt they could recall most of their employees.
@Elie: Of course, most of the rules that really matter are the unwritten ones.
There is no written rule that says you cannot roll politically charged items into the CR. It just was never done.
Man, I bet the bankers are shitting bricks over a default. How long before they put a hit out on the Kochs?
I hear food tasters are de rigueur among the 1% these days.
Don't republicans only talk about balanced budgets when a Democrat is in the Oval Office or is that my imagination? I don't recall hearing a single word about a balanced budget when
WCheney was president.
@Chris: Yeah I thought that it could be a medical thing. But other than the politics he seems his normal self….no weird rages, no spending binges, no excessive drinking or drug use, no reckless behavior, no changes in spiritual or religious belief. It was just the politics that changed, seemingly overnight, from moderate/liberal to right-wing racist nut.
I demoted him to "acquaintance" on Facebook and took him off my newsfeed so I don't have to look at the crap. We had dinner last month and the topic didn't come up, but the "feeling" of good friendship was just, well, gone. I don't know what to do really. I don't feel like I know him any longer.
@Raven: I'm just trying to be realistic, not defeatist. But we can't win this war unless we realize that we are IN a war. And I'm about 90% sure we are in one. If they don't do the clean CR, or at worst a CR with some sort of meaningless fig leaf attached, I'll be 100% sure.
@FDRLincoln: It sounds like your friend has had some kind of neurological event. Hit his head? How old is he? TIA, maybe? That kind of rapid switch is odd.
@FDRLincoln: Involuntary commitment? Urge him to have a full, medical checkup to make sure the blood flow to his brain has not been reduced dramatically?
I have three brothers. Once upon a time we were as close as any family could be. But that was when we were all Republicans. (My own trajectory has been nearly identical to Cole's.)
Now we all ignore each others' Facebook. We don't talk. And when I sent invitations to my wedding (to my partner of 25+ years), two of my brothers didn't even respond.
It's fine with me. Casual bigotry and ignorance really don't have a place in my home.
I was thinking it might be medical too.
A harbinger of neurological problems. Too dramatic a shift.
Has he said what made him switch?
That was my first thought too.
The disheartening thing I keep seeing is just how…easy it is for people to make drastic swings hard rightward to the point it's impossible to get through to them. And I almost never see the reverse. If someone, by some small miracle, ends up drifting leftward, it's an agonizingly long process that can end up arrested quick, often by a single issue that sends them careening back hard right again.
And I honestly don't know how to deal with it. Because often by the time I try to debate with them, I'm already looked at like some Alien Commie Anti-American Devil Child. And at that point I just give up, because the more I try, the more I get hated.
What show is Barrowman there for?
I LOVE me some John Barrowman.
Have for years.
@FDRLincoln: That is strange. I don't know how you change overnight. I am 44. I think my views today are the same as they were 20+ years ago. But what I find strange is this. In like 1991 I was kind of a moderate I'd say. Kind of middle of the road. Now I am to the far, far left. But as I said, my views about the world have been pretty static. I can only assume the nation as a whole has changed to the right. I hate to admit that, but I don't know what else to think.
@FDRLincoln: This could be the first sign. If you're friends with his wife, make sure you mention it to her. Don't talk about it in political terms–just that sudden changes in personality or belief systems, especially when the move it toward something strict or authoritarian or absolutist, can be signs of a neurological issue. Maybe he's depressed and this is the first sign–if he can control the country via politics, he can control himself. That kind of thing.
Sudden changes like that are very often signs of bigger health issues. Take it as a sign.
He's 53. He does have high blood pressure although he takes medicine to keep it under control. All of his brothers and family are TP, and he used to get into fierce arguments with them. He was the sole liberal, but no longer.
One thing that occurred to me. He came into some inheritance money about a year ago. Maybe it is a money thing. But that would explain an economic conversion, not the racist TP stuff. He doesn't talk about the economics of it….it is all race, guns, anti-immigrant, anti-middle eastern, Obama-is-a-Muslim, rhetoric. He even posted some pro-Bush the Lesser photos….in the past he despised Bush. I just don't get it.
Maybe you guys are right about the medical theory.
As I said before, in my experience, it's sadly easy for a lot of people to go careening off rightward again off a single issue. Fuck, I don't know how many people I've seen ostensibly liberal suddenly go hardcore anti-Dem in all their votes solely because of gun control.
This may be a little off-topic, but in debating the shutdown and ACA with my sister who lives in dystopian Florida, she told me that Obama won the election because someone was moving busloads of illegal Somali immigrants from city to city to vote for him.
I'm usually up to date on right-wing bullshit, but this is the first I've heard of busloads of illegal Somali immigrants being bussed around the country to throw elections. Anybody have any links to stories? Pictures? If so, were they wearing pirate gear?
Look, I was telling someone the other day, regarding something completely unrelated to politics, that in my experience studying disasters and clusterfucks (I have an odd fascination with them, maybe owing to being an IT ops guy), in every single case, the failure was a failure of MULTIPLE things, and by chance they all happened simultaneously or in exactly the right sequence to cause a catasrophic failure. There was defense in depth, and ALL the defenses failed; there were design mistakes and oversights, MANY of them. Chernoybl. Fukashima. The Titanic. WWI. The US Civil war, and in fact many wars. 9/11. etc etc etc. These things brew for a long time until they finally blow up.
We are living in one of those times. There are many, many factors involved in this current clusterfuck. They've been discussed at length. But no single factor is THE factor. They're all factors, and many of them are of equal weight.
@Elie: No I think we do get it. It is first and formost a constitutional crisis. For most of our 230+ years under the constitution there has been a peaceful transfer of power from the in party to the out party as the election results demanded. Democrats did not like the SCOTUS decision that gave Bush the presidency but they accepted it They then worked within the system to try and get their voices heard. The tea party does not accept the legitimacy of the last two elections, period. The list of demands for raising the debt ceiling is the 2012 GOP platform, the one rejected by the voters. If Obama gives in in any way he might as well resign and turn the white house over to Romany/Ryan.
Win or lose you play be the rules. The tea party position is 'what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine' and if you don't like it I'll take my football and burn your house down. Our system doesn't work that way. A parliamentary system allows for votes of no confidence and early elections but they still have rules. If the government survives the no-confidence vote it remains in power and the minority goes off to try again later.
The last time the losing party refused to accept the election results was in 1860 and 5 years of bloody civil war followed, Of course for many of the tea parties it is called the war of northern aggression. This is rather ironic for GOP tea partiers since the President that held the union together was a Republican.
The global impact of the Civil war was small. Sure it affected the cotton trade but the importer's of cotton adjusted. The pound was the worlds reserve currency and the Royal Navy enforced Pax Britannica. So chaos in the US did not have a major spillover into world affairs. Today the US is the linchpin of the global economic/military/ diplomatic order. There is an old cliché that when the US catches a cold the rest of the world get pneumonia. Well what happens if the US gets pneumonia? That is why the comments of the Asian diplomat are important. What happens in Washington no longer stays in Washington. It no longer is just a domestic political/constitutional issue but one that bleeds into the global order as well.
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: In my experience, people who are conservative, or make swings to being conservative, are motivated by fear. Figure out what they're afraid of and you stand a better chance of reasoning with them.
The economic crash in 2008 and the loss of jobs and general suckiness of the economy for everyone except the 1% is scary. People are afraid and fear frequently can be seen in someone's sudden desire to control things. They can't control their job or the economic situation, but those Republicans make "personal responsibility" sound so attractive and maybe if everyone takes "personal responsibility" things will improve. Etc.
I don't think modern day Republicans/teabaggers/conservatives are motivated by facts. They're motivated by emotion and specifically fear. Trying to argue with them on facts will get you nowhere. Work on it from an emotional level.
I wouldn't be surprised by a Default. It will accomplish many things for the all of the Republican factions. First and foremost it will make our debt a toxic investment which will help drown the government in the bathtub. There will be forced austerity for the foreseeable future. It places Obama in a situation which may cause him to take an action that will result in Articles of Impeachment being drawn up. The 1%er's and the Chamber get to take down a Democratic POTUS by extra-constiutional means. As mentioned above, the GOP and 1%er's feel no remorse and have suffered no consequences for the 2008 meltdown. The 1%er's proabably don't care if the economy tanks, the system is rigged in their favor and they figure that they'll make their money back eventually, they have quite a bit right now. The MSM and Wurlitzer together will make it difficult to put 100% of the blame where it squarely belongs. The GOP doesn't give a shit about how many people hate them now or will hate them after. America doesn't get special dispensation from history. We can screw it up as well as any other failed nation.
@rikyrah: there is so much wrong with that analysis that I don't even know where to start.
@FDRLincoln: A kossack today posted a link to a documentary kickstarter project called "The Brainwashing of my Dad" about how the documentary woman her father was converted from a pro forma democrat and all around nice guy into a hate the "ns" spouting right wing bigot by something as simple as having a long commute and beginning to listen to talk radio. If sounds like it happened in his late forties/early fifties. I think people are very susceptible to wanting to be liked by other family members and sometimes, too, the death of a family member (you said he had received an inheritance) can kick people over into a new mode where they grieve and suppress their grief by adopting the beliefs of the recently deceased.
@fuckwit: I agree. I am also a student of history and I see this too. I was telling my wife over the last couple of years that the pre-conditions for a catastrophic political breakdown are clearly in place. Not inevitable, but in place. There was still time to fix it.
My opinion has changed now in that I think it is pretty much inevitable at this point.
@FDRLincoln: I've been in a war since 1966. Forgive me if I don't fall out.
@Bob In Portland: No, but they did have parrots on their shoulders so that was the giveaway. Before the buses pulled up people with boxes of crackers would be seen at every poll.
@FDRLincoln: Like the saying goes, you can't use logic to change a mind that didn't use logic to get there.
Some form of mid-life crisis, perhaps? A personal disappointment could lead to a fit of pique… and TP is all about the pique.
Keep things light, maybe mention you miss "the old Dudename" if the opening comes up, and hope he comes to to his senses.
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Well just a happy thought. My mom is 67. Never voted for a Democrat for President. She voted for Obama in 2008. She kind of liked McCain but couldn't stand Palin. I thought she had the best quote ever when she said "Palin is shit all stupid, an affront to smart women the world over." I think that is the only time I've heard my mom cuss :).
My mom is now totally in our party. She feels the Republicans "jumped the shark" on birth control. I mean when I was in high school my mom bought me condoms. She didn't like I was having sex with somebody I wasn't married to, but alas it was about respect. That I should respect the women and use birth control.
She couldn't believe Ryan and others seemed to be against birth control.
@Aimai: that's a good point. There several health crises in his family over the last few years, and he was spending a LOT of time with his TP brothers. Perhaps the combination of stress, grief, toxic TP rhetoric from his family, and his own aging process tipped him over the edge.
@FDRLincoln: Could be grief over the loss, coupled with being around his family a bit more as they handle the estate. Life changes like that can be catalysts for things.
I'd say, don't cut him out. Give him time. Don't talk politics–just eliminate that from the discussion. Take him out for a beer or whatever and ask how he's handling the loss of whoever died, how it has been being around his family more, how the job is going, etc. See if he's okay or down and depressed.
If he's your friend, there has to be more to it than just politics. Focus on those parts and see if the good is still there. If you give it time, you determine he's not ill (after double checking with his wife and making your own assessment), he seems to be irredeemable, then maybe think about limiting contact. But so soon after a loss and after exhibiting a big personality shift–that seems like there's more going on. He needs his friends, not for his friends to abandon him.
@Raven: I am a peaceful person at heart. But I'm not a pacifist. I will fight if pushed too far, and the TP has pushed things too far.
Jesus the Bears are stupid.
Is negotiation on the debt ceiling possible? Are there items that can be traded or piecemealed to get through this without a default?
I'm wondering what the difference is between negotiating on this topic in 2011 that now makes it completely off limits to negotiate on now?
I see an awful lot of hope masquerading as prediction. Any plan that relies on rationality or Boehner "doing the right thing" is dooooooomed. Dooooooooooooooomed. Or has anyone been paying attention the last five years?
Horrible fumble by CIN.
@FDRLincoln: Just exactly who is it you are going to off?
@Violet: Yeah, that seems like a reasonable course of action. I haven't cut him out. It has just been on my mind a lot, when I realized that in the Cold Civil War we are on opposite sides.
I can't imagine what people in the 1860s went through on this, brothers shooting brothers.
@Corner Stone: people figured out too late not to negotiate with terrorists. But now it's like the kid who knows his tantrums have always worked before.
… wow, what a bag of dicks.
I was happy to go to said cousin's wedding, will be happy to go to the other one's if he ever gets married and I'm invited. And "cousin" isn't nearly as close as "brother."
@Bobby Thomson: Yep, hoping the banksters will ride in to rescue us is not going to happen.
Strong D by the Bengals to negate that turnover.
Boner wants a SERIOUS CONVERSATION ?
What do I know … but,
Our President should invite him to a serious conversation. One that is televised. Boehner can bring whomever he wants. President Obama can sit or stand there and listen to him and as often necessary, explain.
Let the "American people" see what Boehner wants. Let the teabagging caucus see what is negotiable or not.
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear, terror, and desperation, can change people's emotional system DRAMATICALLY and cause near-instant changes in beliefs, and world-views.
This is how brainwashing works.
This is how interrogation works.
This is how military basic training works.
This is how propaganda works.
This is also how demagogues get people to go to war.
Consider, most recently, after 9/11, how quickly and dramatically this country went bat-shit crazy, and started looking for war anywhere it could find it.
Terror. Fear. Stress. Isolation. It can cause complete personality changes.
And not positive ones. Because as soon as the limbic system kicks in, it's fight-or-flight, and the rational brain is not working anymore.
So yeah, those phenomena exist, happen, and have been studied ad nauseum by psychologists and sociologists.
@Raven: Huh? I'm not talking about violence, geez
@Another Botsplainer: unfortunately, you're quite right.
But that would explain an economic conversion, not the racist TP stuff.
Thing is, it's kind of an all-or-nothing in-or-out thing when you're a conservative. You may come into the fold because of X or Y issue (abortion, taxes, 9/11), but if you're active in the community at all (even if it's something as innocuous as posting regularly on a blog), they'll try to convert you to every aspect of the message and they tend to see you as a RINO if you do anything less. Eventually you reach a tipping point where you either say "fuck these freaks, I'm outta here" and get out, or "I'm all in" and stay.
@Another Botsplainer: One problem with this theory, if what you say really happens things will be bad for everybody even most of the 1%.
@Violet: I've lost a friend through the last couple years. One day I just told him his problems were because the president is black, and there wasn't any other thing to be said about it.
He had hidden behind his anti-abortion rhetoric until then but the core nugget was really just being scared of black in the WH.
I've stopped going to other events where friends from over the years will be there because I'm a non-violent person and don't like the feeling of wanting to frog stomp people I've known for 20+ years into a mud hole.
Conversation is futile as they just get louder. And louder.
You make good points…
@aimai: Inheritance is key IMHO. That tax you might pay, if your estate isn't set-up correctly, can piss folks off. I know it did for me. My parents are working class folks. My father's dad, rich beyond words. When he passed away my parents got more money then they could spend in a lifetime. The estate was not set-up correctly and they had to take out loan after loan to pay the taxes.
I know that doesn't seem to make sense, but when the assets are not "liquid" that is what happens. Now we have things set-up correctly. I have, in my name, what my parents and I call a "last to die" insurance policy. The terrible day the last of my parents die that policy kicks in and pays all the inheritance tax. My brother and I won't pay a penny.
I should note as an aside, that the super rich that bitch about the inheritance tax are lying to you. They have better advisors then I do and they won't pay a penny either.
The right preys on fear. They weren't alway so bad about it, but that's their whole operation now – fear of debt, of insurance, of religion, of being outgunned, of … everything.
Everyone has their vulnerable times, and that's when that fear can be exploited. It's how petty dictators keep their people in line – push them into some crisis, food, shelter, etc. and then crank of the propaganda and radicalize them.
The point of the 'fairness doctrine' wasn't to make sure that liberal views be held – it was to make sure that NOBODY could turn the US into a propaganda state.
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: There's an exception: kids raised in authoritarian conservative families go left pretty often. Probably not a majority of the time, but often enough. But they're probably the ones who never bought into it in the first place.
@MikeBoyScout: Ah, the televised part is silly. But I agree otherwise. I'd invite Boehner up to the WH, or go to some local small business or whatever, everyday. Sit down for an hour, do the photo ops and just keep doing it.
@FDRLincoln: yes. Why would you WANT to be friends with an asshole?
Yeah, I'm talking more about people who start out as ostensibly on one side of the aisle and make sudden super-swings to the other. You almost never see it go from right-to-left, but god help me it seems to happen constantly left-to-right.
@schrodinger's cat: I think they're willing to take the hit, they get lots of good out of a default, in their minds. Don't forget they were perfectly willing to piss away 100's of millions to take out Obama in the election. Never forget they play the long game. If they can do real damage to Obama the progressive agenda they will, even if it takes them 20 years to make back the cash. They will still be 1%er's after a fall.
But the things they're afraid of usually are things that don't exist in the first place. That's the problem. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the fear of a secret Jewish conspiracy controlling world events is the classic example. You could say that real events like the Great Depression gave those fears a boost, but the fact is that they'd already existed for years and had already boiled over into very public discourse multiple times before, from the Dreyfuss Affair to Czarist pogroms.
You can identify their fears, but I don't know how to deal with them, because it's really a lot more like dealing with people who think that UFOs are talking to them, or that the Antichrist is walking among them, or whatever, than dealing with an average Joe pissed off over something tangible.
@raven: I haven't talked to my father in 10 years, and haven't had very much to do with my mother either because she's very co-dependent with him (she's basically his servant). My old man is a low-rent Bill O'Reilly, always has been a blowhard and a bully, I grew up learning to kiss his ass, but I eventually found my spine and had enough, and am not interested in taking any more of his shit. He's all catholic church and FAUX "News" and Newsmax.
@Chris: only if you never had a soul.
Wow. Bengals take it.
"God Wills It!!"
/Kingdom of Heaven
This is how I'm handling my frustration… I'm yelling at the TV……… New England needs a receiver…
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: I made a gradual transition from right to left over the course of 10-20 years. It was called "growing up".
Geaux Saints!
Thank you Bengals!
@Corner Stone: Well congrats. Tom Brady looked a tad flustered, and ended the game with a tebow pass.
@aimai: Ironically, my sister owns a few parrots. Does anyone know how to say "Arrgh!" in Somali?
@Another Botsplainer: It won't take them that long. The Texas S&L crisis, the 2008 world crash, they came out stronger and richer. And each time the cycle was faster.
They could strangle the 99% of the entire world this time and probably within 3 to 5 years they would have more buying power and wealth on a relative basis.
@fuckwit: Yea, me and my old man could have gone that way if not for sports.
@JPL: I didn't care who won but did think the Bengals D really stepped up strong to win this game.
@Bob In Portland:
Please identify of the key political 1% who ended up worse off after the last financial meltdown and remind me why they should fear another round.
@Bobby Thomson: Just waiting to hear why now is the demarcation. Why not then?
@raven: That was hard to read. That "fuckwit " has not spoken to his dad for a decade. There was a time, like 15 years, where I might have talked to my dad every three months or so. Didn't see him for years at a time. Now he is like my best friend. Took effort on my part. I am sure effort on his part. But best thing I ever did.
Now I'm hoping the Fish will choke out the hated Ravens.
@Suffern ACE: I raised this question a few days ago and was told that this time would be different because the government would be in no position to bail them out. While this may be the case, I am not so sure they would not find other ways to profit off the catastrophe. On the other hand, considering the global effects of a US default, there is a good chance that certain segments of the 1% would be wiped-out.
@Another Botsplainer: You are assuming that the Republicans and their paymasters will be able to control the events after a default.
@Bobby Thomson: Hope springs eternal. OOPs gotta go the unicorns need feeding ::-)
@Corner Stone: We have Denver vs Dallas coming up next, and I'll watch to see how many touchdown passes Wes Welker catches. My other team plays Monday night and they have been known to drop a few passes, too.
@jon: I think they had that conversation already, maybe a month ago. I think there's definitely an element of theater here. Evidence: the Rethugs passed the back-pay for government employees unanimously, and passed the law guaranteeing the military will get paid. So there's some "pantomime" (as the British say) here.
But that's not to say the game is not serious, intense, and dangerous either. But I still think OrangeMan is playing a game.
I think he had a conversation with Obama: "I know we can't default, but I have to give these guys something. I think if I give them the shutdown they'll be happy with that, and I can get away with putting the debt ceiling through." I think Obama is smart enough to know that wouldn't work, but probably said, grimly, "John, you do whatever you have to do." And, if such a conversation happened, I bet it ended right there.
So, I think that's the current R "leadership" game plan, and Obama knows it is not going to work, but it's not his thing, and the whole thing is in Orange hands at the moment.
By the way, could someone please slap Ron Fournier with a large wet fish?. Thanks.
On the other hand, considering the global effects of a US default, there is a good chance that certain segments of the 1% would be wiped-out.
Which will lead to even higher concentration of wealth and power among those situated to take advantage.
For sure it will not be us proles who are picking up the pieces and enwealthening ourselves.
Wow. It's time to bench Eli manning. Or check his vision.
@dmsilev: MSM bots always cover politics like it is a big joke. They are always giggling and nodding their heads on the punditubbie talk fests. The one Gwen Ifill hosts is among the worst.
We have Denver vs Dallas coming up next
Me too. And as irritating as I find Peyton, I simply can not wait for him to dismantle the Romoboys.
Tony Romo sucks. He sucks. Fuck all the stupid sports commentators and sports writers. Tony Romo sucks.
@Tommy: Well, I've said it before here. I came home and got involved heavily in the anti-war movement and the counter-culture. I think he felt responsible for many of the problems that got my ass in the army at 17 and was willing to tolerate me because he could tell himself I'd earned it. It was really hard watching him become increasingly bitter about race after having been so much the opposite when he was a coach. When Arizona was denied the superbowl over the KIng Holiday he went totally south (no pun intended). He was like everybody, some good some bad.
Just five days after #94 came screaming out of Left Blogtopia, Assclowns of the Week #95: Monumental Stupidity double-sized edition is hot off the presses. You read that right, a double-sized edition. Out of the 20 spots and dishonorable mention this week, the assclowns on this week's spit are: Half-term half-wit Sarah Palin; Pat Robertson; Faux News; Darrell Issa and yours truly (17). All this and much, much more!
@Corner Stone: Yes, the few plutocrats left standing will be the masters of a very violent, politically unstable country. Maybe the cost of keeping the United States united is simply too high.
Man. How much can I get paid to not catch passes for MIA?
Are they ill-tempered?
@schrodinger's cat: Fair point. The only thing I assume is that we are dealing with the worst people our country has to offer. They are blackhearted thugs who don't care who they hurt. Maybe they will hurt themselves alot, but I think they might be willing to see what happens.
At least some of them won't mind. They look at the South under slavery/segregation and Central America under those thugocracies we used to support as the true American Dream, a world where everyone is in his proper place.
Oh I just have to say lets go Cardinals!
The Gints are just free falling. Another 3 INT's for Eli? Didn't see the game so not sure what he was throwing at.
@beltane: Perfect recipe to concentrate wealth even further.
It's really hard to say at this point that they haven't been planning for a business led junta since the '80s.
@Chris: Before, or after, the beat-down?
But yes, I recognize the reference :)
One of the many times I was glad to marry a fellow Python fan was when we were watching Chef Ramsey's BBC show where he travels around and eats exotic stuff. They were on a boat headed for a cafe which serves albatross, and he wondered aloud what it tasted like.
It was great to say, "Bleedin' seabird flavor, what do you think?" and crack up the partner.
So no one can tell me why it was ok to negotiate over the debt ceiling in 2011 but it's not ok now?
Interesting the ransom now appears to be "serious discussion" and not defunding Obamacare, and the way they're now trying to spin it is that Obama is unjustly refusing to talk with them as they hold a gun to the head of the economy. It seems that McConnell has been conspicuously absent, making one wonder if the Tea Party challenge to him was to keep him in line and not pull of another deal like he did for the last debt ceiling confrontation. I think Boehner may be kidding himself into thinking Obama and Reid will give him a way to save face, but he can't process the possibility that they're not interested because they now know there will be no end to the extortion, given they'd do this for a lousy 2 month CR.
I wonder to what extent apocalyptic thinking has taken hold in the GOP, at least in the Tea Party faction. We know it's always been there, witness the reactions to 9/11. After all, these are the same people, they've been looking for a Clash of Civilizations for quite a while now. Obamacare seems to been just a symbol for a Great Struggle/Twilight of America, because they now aren't even talking about Obamacare. This makes you wonder if this is more about finding something to force a final showdown with Obama and the Democrat Menace. They look at the future and see yet another entitlement program firmly ensconced in the cultural landscape and Hillary Clinton riding on the horizon, her fat thighs bulging in her pantsuit and attended by her posse of lesbian enforcers.
We tend to laugh at their melodrama, but a lot of them appear to really believe that they are witnessing the end of civilization. There are more than enough charlatans and demagogues like Ted Cruz around to encourage such beliefs, and power hungry assholes like Murdoch, Ailes and the Koch brothers willing to exploit them. Add to that the sense that they are about to lose as their base ages and the country starts to look less and less like them. If you were inclined towards seeing historical parallels, these events have a slight whiff of a Beer Hall Putsch, e.g., a desperate attempt to create a crisis to give the Tea Partiers the grounds for the revolution they've always yearned for. Maybe they believe the country will rise up in their support, giving them supremacy not only over the Democrats, but also over the appeasers within their own party.
You guys would love this: Dogs are people too according to this NYT article:
@Corner Stone: three intentional groundings. Bleh. Two of the Ints looked like they were thrown to eagles directly. He's just throwing at this point.
@Corner Stone: It was a mistake to negotiate in 2011.
@jaleh: I'm just impressed the guy managed to convince some dogs to willingly stand still inside an MRI machine.
@Corner Stone: Sure, it was a mistake to do it the first time and he learned from his mistake.
@Corner Stone: You kinda forgot 2009 too. Anti-nihilist nihilism is only just now getting hip. IOKIYARD (INOKIYADFH).
Hillary Clinton riding on the horizon, her fat thighs bulging in her pantsuit and attended by her posse of lesbian enforcers.
My God but what I wouldn't give to see a Cabinet with 75% LGBT individuals running our federal govt.
Secondarily I'd take 75% female as well, but I mean, dudes gotta have a chance to whip out their Johnsons too once in a while.
@Chris: My husband grew up as an expat 1%er in Venezuela. He said it was horrible, like being an animal in a gilded cage with no freedom of movement whatsoever due to fears of kidnapping, etc. The people he grew up with used to love travelling to the States for the opportunity to come and go as one pleased. My husband was so happy to leave as he hated living behind barred windows in a barbed wire enclosed compound.
His former classmates, of course, were very butthurt about Hugo Chavez, and had no comprehension at all of the anger of the poor people towards them.
Please identify of the key political 1% who ended up worse off after the last financial meltdown and remind me why they should fear another round.
Because the last crash was halted by government intervention, while this one is being set up by government being disabled. Of course recognizing that involves admitting that the government can solve problems, which appears to be beyond the ability of the crazy wing of the party who are driving the shutdown.
@Corner Stone: I think it was a bad idea and Obama seems to have learned that lesson as well.
I think that much like Southerners (and, to be fair, Northerners too) in the lead-up to the Civil War, the craziest teabaggers have "bring the country down, sure!" thinking without any real understanding of what that entails. They think bringing down the government would be okay because then all those taxes and regulations would go away and there would be no consequences (all good things in life come from Jesus, the free market, or those cops and soldiers who aren't really "the government"). They think taking to the hills, calling themselves Wolverines and fighting an insurgency against the Obama Fascist Army would be fun, basically like a camping trip but with more thrills (until their flashlights run out of batteries and they find they can't run to the nearest CVS for some new ones, that is). The more religious among them think if it's a real apocalypse, they'll just be Raptured straight into heaven so who cares. They, like their ancestors in the 1850s, think even if the worst comes to the worst it would be a cake walk.
So no one can tell me why it was ok to negotiate over the debt ceiling in 2011 but it's not ok now?
Because Obama was running for reelection in 2012?
Destruction of the Federal government is the TPer goal, or at least the goal of the people funding the TP.
I've started thinking of it as the Objectively Treasonous Wing Of the Republican Party. "Compromises" that offer to fund the government in return for something else mean that the TPers believe that the Federal government should not be funded and that funding it is a compromise. I don't see any obvious alternative explanation. I think most Republicans are not in this camp, though it can be hard to tell.
@raven: C'mon dawg. We both know what's going to happen. Everyone here beat back all the people who said in 2011 that the negotiations/deals being made made were bogus. I took so much shit for that it was hilarious.
Flash forward to now. All those same people are saying NO to negotiations. Why? Because Obama is publicly saying no as well. So that's the right play at this point in time.
When this comes down to some form of "negotiating" to avoid a default, each and every single motherfucker here who's screaming "don't negotiate with terrorists!" will all of a sudden start changing their tune and buying into the company line. All of them will say "Obama had no choice. He had to be the 'adult in the room'. The country's future and the world hung in the balance!" and "How can you deal with someone who is ready to shoot the hostage!?"
And we will see a complete 180 degree pivot. And it will be all sunshine and roses and 11-D chess for whatever it is Obama beats Boehner and the Turtle out of.
Just wanting to lay down a marker here because it is so predictable as to be unfunny at this point.
@hoodie: What does not give this the whiff of a beer hall putsch, however, is that theirs is not a movement designed to attract youth by promising them a brighter future in which their glorious destiny will be fulfilled. This is not even like the Golden Dawn party in Greece which presents racism and xenophobia as an alternative to austerity. The teabaggers are just pure nihilism, a movement made up of pampered, ageing brats who have lived their entire lives in an unprecedented bubble of peace and prosperity and whose reaction to their good fortune is to burn it all down lest anyone else get a bite at the apple.
@Corner Stone: How in the hell were you able to read that far into his comment?
@Corner Stone: I think the whole fucking deal is hilarious my damn-self.
@Just Some Fuckhead, Thought Leader: It was "lesbian". The word lesbian is what got me.
@Corner Stone: I guess I'm pretty used to seeing things like "Posse of Lesbian Enforcers" in my daily pr0n roundup.
For Hagel, I'm sure this seems like a win, but it surely takes a lot of pressure off the Republicans for caving on the CR and debt limit. And it reinforces the TP trope "who needs all that useless federal government as long as we have a strong military. I dunno. Depressing.
Miami has a ton of people like that. Granted, I'm in grad school, so I tend to see that end of the spectrum rather than the minimum-wage-or-less community. When it's rich Venezuelans and the like, I just roll my eyes. Cubans, I used to have more sympathy for (partly because I have a few relatives in that community and partly because unlike Venezuela, they actually did leave an oppressive dictatorship behind) but even that's starting to wear real thin.
@Elmo: I've been saying this for the last couple of days. Why don't they go for the gold and ask Obama and Biden to resign?
I would advise your friend to seek the care of a neurologist. He has likely suffered a stroke.
@Gypsy Howell: IMO, it's bad policy and bad politics.
Hope it doesn't mean we're going to see more piecemeal efforts to salvage the Republicans from under the rock they're hiding.
@Chris: Yes, many of my husband's former classmates now live in Miami because Chavez was so mean to them (they all loved Romney by the way).
Why don't they go for the gold and ask Obama and Biden to resign?
I think they're smart enough to realize even the villagers wouldn't back them on that.
Our President should invite him to a serious conversation. One that is televised.
And how, televise it. Pre-empt programming and broadcast it on every channel. Show everyone in the nation just what this "serious conversation" would look like:
Obama: "OK, John, what is it you want to talk about?"
Boehner: "We're not going to fund the government unless you order spending cuts,"
Obama: "I did, John. It was called the sequester, remember?"
Boehner: "Then we want you to delay implementation of the ACA for a year."
Obama: "No can do, John. I'm not allowed to just cancel out laws at whim, and besides, it's too late anyway; the law's already gone into effect."
Boehner: "Then we need some other concession."
Obama: "Like what?"
Boehner: "I don't know. All I know is that the Tea Partiers wanted me to come here and talk tough with you, or otherwise they'd vote me out of my speakership position. They have me by the balls."
Obama (pointing at cameras): "You do know these things are on, right?"
Hope it doesn't mean we're going to see more piecemeal efforts to salvage the Republicans from under the rock they're hiding.
Cue Roger Moore screeching someone has to do something.
This was a rumor from Maine. …because some White Republican saw all these Black people voting in Maine, and since HE didn't know them, they had to be bussed from outside.
There actually is a sizeable Somali immigrant community in Maine.
Sure..if I was from Africa, I'd automatically choose Maine…..cause the climates are so similar..LOL
@rikyrah: A significant number of Hmong and Lao refugees ended up in WI and MN because that's where the churches and families that sponsored them lived.
(they all loved Romney by the way).
I don't believe it! :D
It makes me miss the Arab, Persian, Afghan et al diasporas that I knew back in DC by contrast. They, too, brought a lot of (far more justified) baggage against X anti-American regime (Ba'athists, Khomeinists, Taliban…) But that didn't translate to them being right wing nutjobs. Those that were, the post-9/11 backlash threw enough cold water on their faces to wake them up.
@Corner Stone: The reason Obama could negotiate in 2011 was that the expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts were also in play. The spending bills are going to come up each and every year whether we like it or not. But 2011 was about tax rates as well. Frankly, I think the dems managed to do o.k., not great, but o.k. in 2011. If I remember right, the Republicans were offering only to raise the debt ceiling enough to expire in September 2012 during the election. The sequester cuts are awful, but at the same time, we had an election where those cuts could have been an issue but weren't a major concern. I think both parties were hoping that the election results would be different – Obama hoping for a more favorable House and Senate if he one and the Republicans hoping that Obama would be gone.
@Corner Stone: Everything is like an after Christmas sale for the 1%ers after the crash the economy. Assets, resources, people? All much cheaper. Everyone else is so desperate for cashflow they sell cheap.
It's not just the money. It's the social control. If the welfare state crashes like everything else… the need for it doesn't vanish, so the people who have the resources to kinda-sorta "make up for it" are, suddenly, more powerful than kings, able to dictate whatever terms they want for the people desperate for welfare, and these people will have little choice but to agree to them.
There is an entire feudal class in this country that lost big when FDR took the things they'd previously used as a control mechanism and made them available to the public as a no-strings-attached right. And they've been burning to take back their previous status ever since.
@Suffern ACE: This is an interesting take on it. IMO, your hindsight rationale is not very useful.
In real time it was argued that the tax cuts were coming up. And some people suggested they had to be dealt with as a salve to protect the Blue Dogs. Others, myself included, argued that the Blue Dogs were doomed in any event and we had to stick it out.
Then, for some unfathomable reason, the president tied UI to the tax cut negotiations. Two things which should have never been conflated were now the hostage of each other.
The START treaty and other items were, on their own, very significant. But in the context of precedent and hostage taking negotiations they were small in comparison to the debt ceiling.
IMO, it is disingenuous, at the very least, to say the 2011 negotiations "had" to happen but the 2013 negotiations should not. At least in these circumstances.
Hostage takers are hostage takers are hostage takers.
The only difference now is that Obama is signaling he isn't in favor of negotiations at this point. That's all. Any other rationale is secondary or tertiary to the simple fact.
When have Republicans paid any price for ruining the economy?
In ability to have a permanent Republican majority in Congress and a Republican President in the White House. They managed it for about 5-6 years, when Bush & Co first got into the White House and maybe for a couple of years, when Ike was President.
The fact they went from controlling the White House, from 1952 to 1972, for 12 out of 20 years, from 1972 to 1992 for 16 out of 20 years to just controlling the White House, from 1992 to 2012 for only 8 out of 20 years.
There's a price. It's just not resulted in the utter destruction of the Republican party yet.
The only difference now is that Obama is signaling he isn't in favor of negotiations at this point. That's all. Any other rationale is secondary or tertiary to the simple fact.
Well, you have your answer then, don't you?
I love John Barrowman
@rikyrah: Republicans are really just bad about assuming foreign looking people must be fraudulently using government services or voting. The worst case is my dad. When he was forced into retirement by Lockheed Marting (why yes, he never made a dime that wasn't off the tax payers) he looked around the SS offices and got pissed off at "all the foreigners there stealing his money."
My dad was born in China, is pretty dark, and has a thick accent. But in his head, I guess he looks and sounds like St. Ronnie.
@Chris: This is what all the emphasis on faith based initiatives was about. If people can get help from the government, how does that help Big Religion? Where's their cut of the charity? They love being able to force people to sit through proselytizing before they hand out the aid that tax payers paid for.
@Omnes Omnibus: Well, yeah.
The fun will be selling tickets for discounted trips to the chiropractor for all the head snapping that's going to happen in the next two weeks.
Yep. They know what they're about when they complain about welfare "creating a dependency." They love the idea of charity as dependency; they're just angry at liberals for taking away their ability to do it.
As near as I can tell, there were four big winners in the old system – businessmen ("want a paying job? Don't unionize, don't protest, accept all the work hours and working conditions I want!"), machine politicians ("want work relief/health care/disaster aid? Then your neighborhood had better vote Tammany in the fall!"), churches like you said ("need help? Then you'd better sit through this sermon!") and the go-to person of last resort, the mob ("someday, I'll call on you to do a favor for me.") Businessmen and churches at least are firmly behind the GOP and the idea of bringing back those glory days. Machine politicians at the local level would probably make a huge comeback after the fact… and organized crime ain't what it used to be, but it too would get a huge boost. Everyone who preys on the poor and disenfranchised.
how does that help Big Religion? Where's their cut of the charity? They love being able to force people to sit through proselytizing before they hand out the aid that tax payers paid for.
Don't forget the deliciousness that is *shaming* the recipients for having to ask for help from the church.
It's not just the money, it's the power and control that tingles their nether regions.
Republicans are really just bad about assuming foreign looking people must be fraudulently using government services or voting.
Either that, or Republicanism is attractive to racists.
@Corner Stone: Do you think there will be give on anything aside from a pour-boire like the medical devices tax?
What makes it a real farce these days is the amount of "religious charities," beginning with hospitals, that can only operate with government money. It's a nice system – you donate money to the church thinking it'll go to all these touchy-feely things, they put it all into campaigns about abortion and gay marriage, and then turn to government handouts to subsidize their social programs.
And of course, they still want those services to come with strings attached (we don't wanna provide abortions! Or contraceptives! Or…) They basically want to keep the welfare-as-tool-of-control scam from the old days running, but now they actually want the government to pay for it.
@Omnes Omnibus: I think we're going to see another episode of Boehner loudly declaring he "got 90%" of what he wanted and every person here will rush to explain why the negotiations *had* to happen and how it don't mean a thing anyway. Obama totes tricked him!
I don't want a default, or even a threat of one. But what else are we teaching them?
@Corner Stone: But what does Boehner want?
I am of the opinion that Obama, Reid, and Pelosi have decided that is where they are going to make their stand. It is clear to even a casual observer that the GOP is not acting in good faith.
@rikyrah: he talked about a lot of things, torchwood, doctor who, stage acting, singing. He was very energetic. His appearance was on the high side of pg13. It was fun.
But what does Boehner want?
Something poured in a cut glass tumbler with four fingers over two rocks.
He doesn't want anything. Or, at least, not anything the D's can provide.
But he's going to take some POS package the D's will offer, and they will offer it, and go back declaring victory.
Boehner clearly fucked over Reid. He is demonstrably negotiating in bad faith..at the very least.
Another potential benefit, is the OCD brigade will keep their mewling mouths shut.
Oh, wait…
He doesn't want anything.
The main thing he wants is to stay Speaker.
Or, at least, not anything the D's can provide.
@Going Postal (formerly lojasmo):
Boehner clearly fucked over Reid. He is demonstrably negotiating in bad faith..at the very least.
When was this ever not true? You act like this is the difference maker.
@Corner Stone:
The Democrats could agree to back him up if the Teabaggers challenged him. I don't think he'd accept, but it's possible.
I am of the opinion that Obama, Reid, and Pelosi have decided that is where they are going to make their stand.
They certainly have been saying that thus far. I hope they'll continue to stay strong, but we'll know this week.
I think what's behind this play by Boehner and the rest of the Teabaggers is their belief that they can roll Obama and that he'll have to back down. They've convinced themselves that he lies all the time and that he can be forced to back down. They are convinced they've won every confrontation with him thus far (when an objective look at the evidence says otherwise).
I think Obama has no choice but to stand firm and he will force the House to do its job. He knows that if he gives in this time, not only is his presidency damaged, but the office itself is damaged for the foreseeable future whenever there is divided government. He knows that trying to use a "trick" like the $1T coin or the 14th Amendment or something similar won't solve the problem even if it would get us through the immediate crisis.
Many are predicting that there will be a resolution before Friday (when the next recess is scheduled to start). Maybe, but we're on uncharted territory.
For a while I've been of the opinion that nothing will happen before October 17. The Teabaggers think that they can use Sec. Lew's warnings against Obama and that he'll have to blink. I think they're wrong, and I'm afraid we'll all see soon enough.
Of course, Boehner could end this any time he wants before then. I guess he needs to feel a bit more pain first…
My $0.02.
I think Obama has no choice but to stand firm and he will force the House to do its job. He knows that if he gives in this time, not only is his presidency damaged, but the office itself is damaged for the foreseeable future whenever there is divided government.
I agree.
@Roger Moore: Yes, I agree that if something like that happened Pelosi could deliver anything needed. But I absolutely doubt that would ever come to fruition.
And if it did, Boehner would remain Speaker but be 1/1000 as effective as Speaker. And as we've seen, he's not got too strong a hand as it is now. He would be the biggest goat in American politics.
As it is now, he can drink behind closed doors. If the other thing happened he'd just say Fuck It and strap in the IV of high quality brown liquor.
He knows that if he gives in this time
Why this time? Why not last time?
@Corner Stone: For one thing, last time is over.
@Omnes Omnibus: Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off!
@Corner Stone: Okay, Rambo.
THAT's where that's from! Thanks.
@Corner Stone: Why this time? Because he's seen this play before.
Larry gives a pretty good summary.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
@Corner Stone: I guess we will see.
@Omnes Omnibus: I was laughing at him quoting ABL quoting Lawrence Fucking O'Donnell.
She's a clown and L O'D is a buffoon.
@Corner Stone: I guess you didn't watch the clip then.
Larry's hyperbolic quite often, but he laid out the politics of what was going on in the summer of 2011 very well. Things are different now; that's why Obama is not negotiating over the CR and the Debt Ceiling now.
@Keith P.: Well, more money to the banks for interest, leaving less money for anything that might possibly benefit the general public. They know and want this.
@FDRLincoln: Maybe gently and as a friend, and not to debate, but ask him what changed his mind. Not with any suggestions, but leave it completely open. And if he tells you, do not attack, but stick to the plan not to debate it, and say thank you. Oh, yeah: and then tell us.
OK – nothing substantive to contribute. But wow – a reference to "I wanna be a lifeguard" by Blotto. Just made my day.
Let's put it this way. Heads Obama loses. Tails Obama loses. That's how his whole Presidency has been since the very beginning. I figure what's changed is that the billionaires are tired of pretending and have just bought the country outright. They own the judges, the Congress and the Supreme Court. It's just a matter of time before it all comes crashing down. The only good thing is once Obama is impeached and executed (remember the billionaires own the justice system) is that when the country goes to crap, it'll be the billionaires losing all that money and it's THEIR money that will become useless. We'll have already gone through that.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I did. But why bother? He's an idiot. And anyone who quotes an ABL piece quoting an L O'D segment should really reconsider what they are all about.
@Corner Stone: Dear Corner my friend. I didn't quote your old flame ABL. I'm sorry that bringing her to mind was so traumatic for you. It was just a linky.
the only good thing is once Obama is impeached and executed (remember the billionaires own the justice system)
Assuming Obama is impeached over some aspect of this, the trial is in the Senate and requires a 2/3 vote to remove him from office. That simply won't happen.