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DETROIT - Two Oakland County Sheriff's deputies are facing misdemeanor animal cruelty charges for allegedly neglecting three horses in their care.
Lapeer Country Prosecutor Byron Konschuh said James Willyard and his wife, Georgia, were arraigned Friday.
Three horses were removed from their land off 5 Lakes Road in Lapeer after an investigation that began at the end of January.
They're due back in court on March 20.
On Monday, the Oakland Sheriff's Office released the following statement:
"We obviously find these allegations very disturbing. We have no tolerance for any animal cruelty. The deputies in question have been relieved of their police powers pending the outcome of the case."
Read more Local News headlines:
- Trial begins for W. Bloomfield grandma charged with murder
- Authorities: Panhandler shot dead in Pontiac
- Suspected car thief shot by Southfield police
- Community to celebrate 50th anniversary of Shrine Chapel
- Alcohol suspected in fatal Rochester Hills crash
- Pontiac woman beaten by 2 men in her home
- Crews find gas main rupture near Royal Oak house explosion
- Consumers Energy works to calm fears about natural gas
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A Closer Look at "Eden 2"
After spending the last month as an intern at MOPA I have had the chance to explore the current exhibition Infinite Balance in depth. The show is full of astounding, thought-provoking works that reveal the increasingly prevalent effect we have on our surrounding environment. However, each time I pass through the exhibition my favorite photograph remains the same, Eden 2 by Susan Derges.
The simplicity and poignancy of this image capture me. It speaks of nature, serenity and movement all at once. What also attracts me to Susan Derges' works are her unique experiments with photographic methods. In this case, Derges has developed a technique which involves exposing photographic paper underneath an English country stream in the moonlight. In effect the world becomes her camera, a great concept within a show entitled Infinite Balance.
Her image exhibited at MOPA is a life-size snapshot of rippling water and its reflection of the world above it. The water's fluidity has a calming effect, yet the ripples and the clouds predict change. For me, the work comes together in its title, "Eden" a garden of perfection where Eve's first movements began to change nature's course. The ripples and clouds reflected in the water's surface present this constant movement and uncertainty that is ever present in our world of infinite change.
-Written by MOPA PR Intern, Lucy Coker

subset: commoncrawl


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After spiking upward Monday in response to renewed concerns about U.S. planting delays during May, corn futures set back Tuesday. Some traders clearly thought the gains, particularly those by the old-crop contracts, were overdone, whereas others may simply think there is still adequate time to get the huge 2013 crop planted. U.S. dollar weakness probably limited losses. May corn settled 0.75 cents lower at $6.8325/bushel late Tuesday morning, while December slipped 2.75 cents to $5.5675.
Soybean futures also reversed to the downside Tuesday. Wire service reports suggested strong producer sales in response to the Monday surge and profit taking at the CBOT undercut prices. The potential for sustained delays to corn planting and an eventual switch of many acres to soybeans probably weighed upon deferred futures to some extent. May soybean futures gained 4.0 cents to $14.6775/bushel at its Tuesday close, while May soyoil slid 0.35 cents to 49.13 cents/pound; May soybean meal dipped $2.9 to $428.3/ton.
After getting off to a weak start Tuesday morning wheat futures surged upward around midsession. That very likely marked a reaction to early indications from the Wheat Quality Council tour that the Kansas winter wheat crop was not impressive. That is, the wheat in the best area of Northeast Kansas looked likely to average about 4 bu./ac. less than last year. Forecasts for snow and frost over some areas later this week probably boosted the market as well. May CBOT wheat futures jumped 11.25 cents to $7.2175/bushel as trading wound down Tuesday, while May KCBT wheat leapt 16.75 cents to $7.98 and May MGE futures rose 1.75 cents to $8.375.
The April live cattle contract surged as it expired at noon Tuesday, which seemingly boded well for the most-active June future. However, instead of sustaining its early gains in anticipation of forthcoming cash and wholesale gains, June suffered a substantial afternoon decline. That was not encouraging, especially when one considers its drop below support associated with its 40-day moving average (MA). June cattle ended the day having declined 0.65 cents to 121.90 cents/pound Tuesday, while December lost 0.72 cents to 127.35. May feeder cattle futures proved unable to capitalize upon concurrent grain/soy losses, falling 0.87 cents to 139.55 cents/pound at the Tuesday close, while August sank 0.97 cents to 148.90.
Continued cash and wholesale strength seemingly powered CME lean hog futures upward Tuesday. Predictions that the Monday quote for the CME cash equivalent price will jump 1.04 cents to 83.46 tomorrow apparently boosted the expiring May contract, while the deferred contracts anticipated sustained spring and summer strength. May hog futures jumped 0.80 cents to 90.10 cents/pound in late Tuesday trading, and the June contract rose 0.42 cents to 92.57.


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There's nothing quite like a new car to put some pep in your step, and infuse your daily route with a renewed sense of excitement and vitality. Here at Susquehanna Chrysler Dodge Jeep Ram it is our goal to get you to this very state of true driving bliss with complete and utter ease. When you choose to do business with our York County dealership, you'll find that we're not only automotive enthusiasts, but we are also eager to make your automotive wishes come true, and we will do everything in our power to make the shopping process as stress-free and enjoyable as possible.
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Jack's Backyard owner Kathy Jack has not returned calls from Dallas Voice about the venue's abrupt closing 10 days ago. But Marla Custard, one of the property owners, alerted us to some of the details behind the closure.
According to court records, Jack filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy on Dec. 16, 2010, for the business, Jack Out of the Box LLC. Documents show the business owed hundreds of thousands of dollars to investors including Custard, as well as the IRS, the state comptroller's office and the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission.
Considering that business seemed to be good at Jack's Backyard, Custard said she's still unclear about why the bills weren't being paid.
Days before the club's final Sunday on June 26, a judge dismissed the bankruptcy filing, saying the numbers didn't add up in Jack's plan to get out of the debt.
"That's when it became clear Jack's Backyard would have to close," Custard said. Custard is one of about 15 people listed as creditors who invested in the venue, including recognizable names in the LGBT community such as Howard Okon, Laura McFerrin and Matt Miller.
Custard said she's personally out more than $600,000, between her investment in the bar and loss of rent payments.
"We love this place," Custard said. "I'm so mad at her [Jack] for this. It's heartbreaking, but at the end of the day, it all rests in Kathy's lap."
The landowners are now looking for a new tenant.
In an email to the Dallas Voice, Custard forwarded documents from the case and gave us her breakdown of the events that transpired before the closing. Read a portion of her email after the jump.


text: Kenwood Excelon KDC-X996 CD/MP3 Car Receiver w/ Bluetooth 19. September 2012 jay Car Audio, Car Stereo, CD Player (0) TweetKenwood Excelon KDC-X996 CD/MP3 Car Stereo Receiver w/ BluetoothShare Excelon Performance & Quality eXcelon products incorporate the latest technologies and deliver the highest sonic performance. From advanced audio tuning capabilities, crossover and equalizer systems, high voltage preouts, eXcelon represents the very best product available. Built-In Bluetooth Hands-Free Bluetooth wireless technology promotes safe driving habits by allowing you to have a hands-free conversation while you drive without the need to hold a phone. Incoming calls can be set to pick up automatically or at the touch of a button if you prefer to screen incoming calls. For outgoing calls, you can choose to dial out by scrolling through your phonebook on the easy to read display interface or by voice dialing if enabled on your compatible smartphone. Built-In Bluetooth A2DP Music Streaming Enjoy wireless music playback from your Bluetooth device like a smartphone or tablet via Bluetooth through your in-dash receiver. USB Connectivity for iPhone and iPod Most USB-enabled CD receiver models, feature USB connectivity for audio playback from popular devices like iPhone and iPod. Featuring easy-to-use user interface, iPod browsing is a breeze when searching by playlist, artist, album, song, genres or composer. Additionally, you can use advanced search functions like Reverse Browsing, Alphabet Search and Skip Search to find what you want to listen to, quickly and easily. For added versatility, App/iPod Mode disables the receiver's integrated control, enabling passengers to control the iPod manually including some selected Apps. The same USB connectivity allows users to connect USB thumb drives and external hard disk drives. Pandora Connectivity Install the Pandora App for iPhone, Android and BlackBerry smartphones and enjoy a personalized listening experience. A number of Pandora functions can be controlled from a Pandora-enabled Kenwood receiver when an iPhone is connected through USB. For Android and BlackBerry smartphones, controls are done via Bluetooth A2DP. Functions include Thumbs up & down, Bookmark Artist, Bookmark Song, A to Z search and Alphabetical channel search. Pandora allows users to maximize the internet radio experience in your car by customizing all of your favourite artists for a rich musical experience. Sirius XM Ready Adding SiriusXM is made more affordable with a single direct connection to the optional SXV100/SXV200 SiriusXM tuner module (runs exclusively on the XM network). With your subscription, you will now be able to access all your favorite music channels, sports games and entertainment including some advanced SiriusXM functions like Instant Replay and Game Alert. Rear USB and AUX Input USB connectivity for compatible USB-enabled devices. These include iPhone and iPod devices as well as compatible Mass Storage Class devices like smartphones, USB thumb drives and portable hard drives. This USB input will allow you to charge and control the music playback on your connected device.


text:
By Donovan Slack
Vice President Joe Biden on Thursday hailed the success of the Violence Against Women Act, saying domestic violence has dropped by 60 percent since it was signed into law 18 years ago. But he also decried congressional gridlock that has left a strengthened reauthorization of the act in legislative limbo. Biden said in a statement issued on the law's anniversary that three women still die each day from domestic violence, one in five women have been raped and one in six have been stalked. "While women and girls face these devastating realities every day, reauthorization of a strengthened VAWA languishes in Congress," he said. "VAWA is just as important today as it was when it first became law, and I urge Congress to keep the promise we made to our daughters and our granddaughters on that day—that we would work together to keep them safe." The Senate passed a bill in April that would expand protections under the law to undocumented immigrants, same-sex partners and Native American women. The House then passed its own version without those protections. The two have yet to be reconciled.
(To read original article, visit this Politico link)
© 2016 National Sexual Violence Resource Center – Founded by the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape
This site is supported by Grant/ Cooperative Agreement No. 1UF2CE002359-04 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Its contents are solely the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the official views of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.


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Results 201 to 220 of 295
Thread: Natural Selection 2
yeah but Battlefield had a hundred times the resources of NS2. They will surely do a free weekend, but putting together a demo is probably not possible at the moment.
It is a bit hard to gauge ACTUAL system requirements because NS2 isn't built in any engine we are familiar with. The only game using that engine is NS2.
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Hm,never thought making demo can be difficult :D Otherwise free weekend sounds also good,maybe even better :P
Well yeah, making a demo requires some work. The team behind NS2 is surprisingly small (in the teens, I think?) and there's no one free to work on putting together a demo. Also I believe their sales expectations were pretty low, so they feel like they're doing okay without a demo. But that said, they have expressed interest in a free weekend.
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-ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5470
-4 GB ram
-Windows 7
I think the clock speed of my cpu might be a bit low, but I should be able to overclock it a bit if I slap together some sort of cooling device mad max style.
Edit: If I missed any specs you want to know about feel free to ask for them.
Last edited by Bork Titflopsen; 16-11-2012 at 03:11 PM.
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Thats not bad at all,i think you could run the game on medium with decent resolution.
Yeah, like I said I don't know the engine very well, but it doesn't seem overly demanding for that system, Bork.
Check out this thread for maybe a free copy. They sell a four pack on Steam, so it's likely a lot of players have an extra copy they might be willing to give or trade.
edit: (already double posted, so this goes in here)
That original Gamespot reviewer that gave NS2 a 60 has apologized on his blog:
I failed in my duty to write something free of errors, and Natural Selection 2, it goes without saying, deserves better than that. To the development team, especially in light of Metacritic's refusal to alter the score, I can only ask for your forgiveness.
Last edited by Sparkasaurusmex; 16-11-2012 at 09:26 PM.
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Bf1942 was a slow starter, didn't really get that high review scores (7 and 8s) but it just kept on growing and growing over the first year because the demo with wake island sold people on it.
It's low clocked and only a dual core and the game is fairly demanding on the cpu. You'll probably be allright on low settings at 1280x900 or something gpu wise, but don't expect more than 30 fps with that cpu.
Don't you have a desktop pc at all? Anything better than a 3ghz c2duo + slap in a 50 euro second hand hd5770 and you'll have a ten times better experience in any game.
edit: it was MNC , here is the review: http://www.1up.com/reviews/monday-night-combat-review
This clown has a track record of not playing games he is supposed to review, why does he have a job?
Last edited by Finicky; 17-11-2012 at 04:00 AM.
Haha yeah I saw that review after this fiasco with the NS2 review. I don't know what keeps him getting freelance gigs, I guess just putting up copy.
There's a Tychosomething (maybe PA's Tycho?) with some solid gold comments on that apology blog.
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Eventually this 'reviewer' just admits he knocked the game because he (literally) thinks it isn't accessible and mainstream enough, and that the cod crowd wouldn't like it.
I continue to be amazed at how he sees such a satisfying and rewarding learning curve as something that should be avoided, ten years of babbys first fps has really done a lot of damage.
Pearls to the swine.
Personally I never played ns1 because I was a fool back then, so I went into ns2 as a proper rookie.
I had a blast from the very first moment and learning the ropes is an interesting and rewarding process. Your first successful skulk ambush and bait, first onos encounter, first beacon forcing, first cutting off of a cyst line, first power down at marine spawn, first extractor snipe etc etc are all exciting and memorable moments, each of them make the game click more and more.
60 hours /played time in and I'm still learning every match, there are still new memorable scenarios unfolding and there are countless hours of attempting strategies and learning new maps ahead once I do master the playstyle of every lifeform and weapon. (then probably another several dozen hours learning alien and marine commanders then endless practice doing micro and improving apm)
Imagine being the creator of such a rewarding game and learning curve and seeing it go to waste on a pleb like that who shits on your life work (10 years in the making) and who in this disgusting industry actually has a tangible influence on how many people will dignify your efforts.
Last edited by Finicky; 20-11-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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Anyway, I just bought the game, figured I played the original so much I'll think of it as a donation in the case it didn't work out.
It's running well enough to play on the marines' sides, but I'm having trouble biting people as a Skulk.
It's a shit-ton of fun regardless though, I'm just making sure I'm no detriment to my team in any way when I'm having issues ingame.
For me biting is easier if you use alien vision (F)
It makes the soldiers glow orange and it's easier to keep them in your 'sights' for biting. Don't just hold down the mouse button (to keep chomping) but aim and take bites when you're about to run into the soldier. It takes practice, but you will get better as you try more.
Just keep moving around a lot. When the marine reloads start focusing more and moving around less. Try to get a good bite in and retreat, rinse, repeat. It's way easier when you can get another skulk to help you out.
RPS put up a WIT on NS2. It's the best review of the game I've seen yet (not surprised)
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The advice about the reload is particular good to remember though. I had a game a few days ago where the marines were on their last base and pushing out with a large force containing a couple of Exos that actually looked pretty nasty. I managed to sneak into their base and start munching on their power node, whilst they were on the other side of the map. It was close to going down when the commander decided to hop out of the chair and deal with me. I danced around and got a bite or two, but he scored a couple of hits on me, so I ducked behind a pillar, barely alive. That was when I heard the reload noise. I dived out and start noshing on sweet marine arse. Back on the power node that quickly went down. Resulted in a very satisfying win (and much swearing from the opposing team.)
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RE: Skulk bites, it might be worth turning down the mouse sensitivity, so you don't spin past them.
Also, you get a nice speed boost when hopping down from a wall or ceiling, essential for closing on marines.
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Another good thing to try is to let the marine see you and burn his clip or at least half of it while you skitter around on the walls or back around a corner.
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The hit detection works really well (sometimes you come across a server with a lot of bandwidth choke or high packet loss and then it is shit, but that is that server's fault not the game's).
Once you start timing your bites it just clicks in a way comparable to figuring out recoil/headshots in cs 1.x clicks. You consistently get rewarded (and punished for fucking up).
Bouncing off walls will buy you valuable magazine emptying time (you should never charge at marines to begin with though) and if you are good at wall jumping you can stay alive against even enemies with decent aim long enough for your teammate to kill the marine or his clip to go low (at which point a good shot will crap all over you with his pistol:p )
A few mantras that can't be repeated enough for those who feel lost of frustrated when they start to lose:
-scout scout scout and call out key upgrades/builds! Pub games have high potential for team work as long as people know what is going on.
A team that is a blind is a team that is helpless, no matter how good the players.
If you call out that phasegate going up in their home base, then your team will know the marines are going to look to build a forward base, and will be ready to snipe it as it is being built/as soon as it is left undefended.
Did you find a hive that was just erected in a position where your team can get to it? Call it out, usually your team will pressure it hard , they will lose gorges trying to defend it , they will lose pressure while you harass it etc .
Did a marine drop a grenade launcher after wandering a bit too far from spawn/phasegate? CALL IT OUT! your team can help you prevent him from recycling it.
-Victory of the alien team is dependant on not letting the marines fully tech up (which WILL happen if you let them hold 4-6 res nodes for a long time) and not taking down phasegates in time (once marines have armor 3 and 2 phasegates you are pretty much screwed as they will come flooding at you faster than you can take them down, but it's the aliens' fault for letting it come to that). When do these situations happen? When the alien team goes too much on the defensive (pressure drops) or when they are playing team deathmatch in random spots without applying pressure on their buildings.
When you notice pressure drops, go snipe rts, try to coordinate a snipe on a Phasegate, force a beacon and tell your team they beaconed so they can start taking down stuff on the other side of the map.
This kind of coordination is made extremely easy because of the map, and is very common in pub play from my 72 hours of experience.
-for pubbing play on 14 man servers or 12 man ones, it only takes one dumb fade to kill poorly positioned marines while you are trying to chew down a PG/take down a turret battery/take down a power node at a com station/munch down an observatory) to cause marines to respawn and flood back in through said PG to ruin your day. 16-24 player servers have a much higher chance of being a bit of a meatgrinder and makes it far harder to get anything productive done when too many people aren't coordinating.
In the same way, before you go play natural deathmatch... look at the map and see if you aren't fucking over your teammates' actions by killing that assault rifle marine who respawns for free 6seconds later with direct access to the phasegate.
-best defense is a good offense! Seriously. is marine pressure getting overwhelming? Are they flooding all over double or one of your hives? Look for a way to redirect their efforts through pressure or things will snowball and you will be frustrated (through your own fault).
When there is high pressure on a hive it means a phasegate is nearby, if it is well defended (turrets, armory, obsevatory) it means you let them have it for too long , regardless your team needs to either take care of it or relocate entirely.
This is what Rossignol was complaining about in his WIT... it is not a flaw of the game by design, it is pubbies sometimes settling into bad habits and letting things get out of control.
The easiest way to relieve that pressure is either deal with the cause, (which is NEVER the marines, it's always the Phasegate or just well fortified forward structures).
If you can't deal with the cause because it is too well defended then it is not difficult to force a beacon elsewhere on the map or simply trade bases and relocate (which is always a viable choice if your team has been keeping their RTs down and hasn't constantly let marines recycle their weapons and welders).
-on that note: don't let marines recycle their gear!
This is probably the one thing pubbies aren't very good at, they can coordinate down phasegates, keep rts sniped, pressure well etc, but killing that shotgunner or launcher player is useless if you don't stick around to keep him from picking it up again.
This game is ZONE control, everything that goes wrong for either team is caused by either team forgetting that or not correctly basing their desicions on it.
That is kind of the point of the game, the team that does it better will slowly snowball into a win, and as long as they are on the ball to protect their ever present weaknesses (upgrade structures, phasegates, observatories dying = no base saving beacon, power nodes, expensive lifeforms and weapons) they will get a well deserved win.
There is a lot of meta game and decision making, I'm kind of stumped as to how anyone could see this as a negative.
Watching it unfold is always entertaining (wether it be by accident or coordinated).
Imo ever skulk and especially ever fade (as they can do damage to their own team) should be pressing C every time they spawn, every time they want to attack something, every time things go awry to get a fresh overview of what needs to be done.
Same goes for marines, if you have phasegates up they are going to need babysitting until observatories are up (look for flashing phasegate icons and power node icons on the map) and after that they still need constant vigilance.
NS2 is played on the map even for the grunts.
Last edited by Finicky; 24-11-2012 at 06:33 AM.
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game needs a supercomputer to get above 60 fps (on lowest settings...).
even strong PCs struggle to maintain 30 when there's lots going on
for a game that isn't even worth playing unless the teams are perfectly even, this is kind of crippling the community
not only are 95% of the players just incompetent at strategy and teamwork and being aggressive and coordinating, but they can't even hit anything when the framerate and hitreg sucks so hard
wrong thread, biz. Surely you aren't talking about NS2!
Seriously though, it does get choppy when there's a lot of fire going on, but I'm maintaining good FPS otherwise. Honestly the engine seems fairly well optimized to me, and that's actually the current focus of the dev team- optimize.
I find that most of the players are actually very good at the game. Most FPSs that are this young don't enjoy so many die-hard fans trying to help new players. In my experience NS2 has more competent players than any other new FPS game.
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It sure does, probably because of all the 10 year ns1 veterans, and the lengthy beta.
Pub play in css was also higher level than in your average mp game from day one because the majority were cs 1.x vets.
I've never seen such a friendly community though as in ns2.
Still annoyed at almost every 'reviewer' out there docking the game for relying on the community (which is exemplary in this game anyhow).
If any of you fuckos ever chance upon this post: THIS is why publishers make safe,dumbed down games with a low skillcap.
Because otherwise the reviewer/joe schmuck the casual might get owned or not be able to lonewolf to glory and scores/initial impressions go down , even if the highs,average fun and reward to be gleaned from the games are way higher.
Last edited by Finicky; 24-11-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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Medical Definition of Family medicine
Family medicine: Also called family practice. The medical specialty which provides continuing and comprehensive health care for the individual and family. It is the specialty in breadth which integrates the biological, clinical, and behavioral sciences. The scope of family practice encompasses all ages, both sexes, each organ system, and every disease entity. (From the American Academy of Family Physicians)
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RUSSELLS Hall Hospital has unveiled a state-of-the-art new machine that tests how well the body responds to exercise to help consultants predict how well patients will cope with surgery.
The high-tech cardiopulmonary exercise testing (CPET) machine, located in the hospital's orthopaedic and surgical clinical centre, evaluates how the heart, lungs and muscle respond to exercise, mimicking the physiological stress on the body that surgery causes.
The tests are performed on a stationary bike and, as the patient rides, consultants measure how much air they breathe, how much oxygen they require and how fast and efficiently their heart beats.
The service is currently available to patients undergoing major vascular surgery, for which the Trust is a regional centre.
Dr Adrian Jennings, consultant anaesthetist, said, "We are now able to more accurately risk assess patients undergoing surgery. This is useful for clinicians as we can better direct care to the patient's individual needs, for example, the type of anaesthetic and the type of postoperative care.
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Body Painting Comes to Atlantic City With Our Grapes and Grain Festival
The Grapes and Grain Festival is a traveling wine and beer show with delicious food and great music and WPG Talk Radio 1450 is bringing it to Atlantic City. But that's not all we're bringing!
And as we sample some fantastic craft beers and wines on June 7th at the Trump Taj Mahal, we will also be watching Heather's Art – Face & Body Painting.
Body paint is beautiful, titillating and extraordinary, as human skin is turned into a a canvas, 'clothing', and moving art all at once. Heather Deegan Hires, Atlantic City's featured artist, face, and body painter will introduce to us to an exciting world of body painting.
Check out some of Heather's work and join us to indulge in a craft beer and wine lovers paradise!


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Dell XPS 15 L521X: A Detailed First Lookby Jarred Walton on 7/25/2012 1:10 AM EST
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solipsism - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - link1) How is the experience with that large trackpad. So far I haven't seen or experienced any notebook following Apple's path here that has made it a great experience.
2) Regarding the first page, I think the quality of the display is also very important. the MBP might be a TN panel but it's a damn good TN panel. Asus also has plenty of great panels in what tend to be cheap machines. Since I'm always looking at the display I couldn't choose this Dell even if the PPI is decent. Reply
Spivonious - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - link147dpi is "decent"? My, how times have changed. I remember when I bought my 125dpi CRT and it was top-of-the-line.
Still, since most Windows apps aren't high-DPI aware, getting a high DPI screen on a laptop isn't as important as it is on a phone or tablet.
Don't get me wrong, I do like the higher DPI screens that we're seeing now, but calling 147dpi "decent" really made me laugh. Reply
solipsism - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkIt's not a measure of percentage over a set time frame. It's simply a statement of what is deemed satisfactory.
Note that at 141 PPI it's significantly more than the MBP at 110 PPI. Note that you only need to be 24" away from the display for it to be Retina quality for those with 20/20 vision.
PS: Even though we now have 200 PPI displays with the new MBPs don't think that ten years from now that display will be crap if it's not 5, 10 or 20x the pixel density. Around 200 PPI will be hear for a very long time. Reply
Serge SC - Thursday, September 13, 2012 - linkI've had a 15.6" FHD screen for 3 years now.
My eyes are in the 18/20 perhaps, even better, and still, I can't see the pixels while being around 50 cm away from my screen...
Sure, the more the merrier, but at full HD on this size of panel, it is good enough that 90% of users can't see pixels from normal usage distance. Reply
SodaAnt - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkWell, I've had a 1080P 15" laptop display for a while, and to be honest, as long as you are sitting in a normal position about two feet away from the screen, there is no way you can see the individual pixels. However, I do admit that they have a long way to go on making the screen look good though. Reply
Frallan - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkHmm had they been able to squeeze a 660 in there it would have been an immediate buy for me but the 640 just doesn't cut it. It would be interestin to see some new development in heat management in lappys - the same theory and build is still being used as for 10 yrs. I think that it should be possible today to think of a new way of doing things. Reply
xype - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkDon't worry, as soon as Apple decides to use any of the myriad of advanced cooling solutions, everyone will start doing it. It's just, you know, too big a RISK to try it first. Better have another medicore model selling in small numbers than try and aim for Gold. Reply
ananduser - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkWhat was said about this model regarding thermals is also true about Apple's MBP. As soon as you start pushing the hardware it too gets extremely hot. Reply
xype - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkThat's why I said "as soon as Apple decides", meaning "they are not doing it, yet." Duh. Reply
Spoony - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkIn the past, I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. Previous MacBook Pros (and PowerBooks) were absolute space heaters. They sat at about 95C as soon as you started doing anything intensive with them. Lap toasters!
The fan ramps used by Apple are also hugely conservative in favour of noise, which I do not feel is the right trade off. Frequently you'd see 103C before the fans had ramped up all the way.
All this being said, I recently ran several stress tests to see if the differences Apple had made to the Retina MacBook Pro actually did anything. The results were extremely positive. A highly synthetic stress test on CPU/GPU yielded 82C highest temp (on the Nvidia card).
I bought a rMBP, and have been very satisfied with the thermal performance. Coming from somebody who was highly critical of all previous Apple machines in this regard. You do have to encourage the fan to ramp properly sometimes, so it isn't perfect. Just a lot better. Reply
ananduser - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkWell your stress tests are against Anand's own review and many other reviews that have noticed how under long stress tests the MBP gets extremely hot. You're a lucky one. Reply
dtolios - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkApple did nothing "new" with the rMBP...the contrary, it got thinner and the thermal envelope of the notebook got "tighter"...
It's just that it is using "cooler" components that intel and nvidia put together.
The metal chassis can only insulate so much, and that is true for all manufacturers. Apple cannot beat physics (doh).
Thus really high end GPUs were always out of the question for MBPs, (and all thin/light laptops) despite the amount of money you were willing to throw in for customizing. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkHa that is so funny to me - I can see that picky elite machead going for the totally silent room, doing the yoga meditation, some breathing exercises, then firing up the MBP to do some spiritual testing - getting that ear on down low next to it, to see if it can hold it's breath, too.
That's why the macgineers had to do what they did do - it's the end user's magical idiot silent wet dream, and there are so many of those people... who cares if they burn their crotch off - that's a good thing.
Yeah, it's really sad. Same type of insanity with gaming gpus as they have the sound cranked to the max and often are wearing noise cancelling expensive headgear for sound. I suppose the fan sound would ruin their delicate and selective critical listening enjoyment. Reply
name99 - Saturday, July 28, 2012 - linkThe two are really not comparable. Read what Anand said:
The takeaways are:
- for many purposes attempting to stress the machine did NOT result in reduced performance
- even when it did, the falloff was not that extreme (5% or so)
- there was no mention of the system ever crashing due to thermal overload (and I've never heard of this in earlier Macbooks, eg my 2nd gen MBA very obviously throttles in hot weather, but it never crashes).
One thing I wonder (Anand hinted at the same thing) is whether this is a consequence of using a 45W part rather than 35W --- Apple has more headroom and is using that AS headroom, not as compute capacity. If so, this would be analogous to the way they under-clock pretty much every iOS device relative to the CPU's rated specs. The exact reasoning is slightly different, but the overall point is the same in both cases --- to balance the tangible, measurable goal of maximum performance against the intangible, unmeasurable goal of delight, where delight is increased by things like longer battery life, consistent performance and, of course, no crashes. The editorial aside would, of course, be that you can't build products that delight if you are purely driven by checklists and measured numbers --- you have to be willing to make tradeoffs, like leaving some performance on the table for the sake of battery life, or stability, or temperature.
[I'm not trying to be rah rah Apple here; I'm trying to point out the real differences between these two products, and the real factors that led to these differences.] Reply
GotThumbs - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkOk Fanboi. Just remember the fact that Apple is now a PC Assembler. When they first came out...they built their own systems. They were not as successful back then. Now they use Intel chips and other PC components available to any other PC Assembler.
Now Apple is a PC Assembler and they are very good at designing fashionable/attractive shells, but don't con your self into thinking Apple is a true innovator. The are very much like the Chinese in the 80's (Sony Tv's, Walkman, etc.). Apple is very good at taking an existing idea...and putting its own spin on it. There are features they have that are not mainstream...like fire-wire...but as the reviewer stated....He doesn't use it and most of the users of today are probably in the same boat. How great is an option or feature...in its not used/needed?
You need to put the Cool-Aid down.
Listen, If you like using Apples products and they do what you need....I'm happy for you. Just don't try and make this a pissing game or who's dad can beat up whose.
I'm really getting tired of the regurgitation of which is king.
Now that Apple is a PC assembler...the reviewers point about the OS is the key. Either you prefer windows or Apples OS.....or any other number of Linux alternatives.
All I'd like is for people to grow up and have a little respect for other peoples choices/decisions.
If it your money...spend it how you wish...but don't act like a 5 year old and sing about your ice-cream or whos king of the hill. It just too school yardish.
All the best and enjoy your computer. Reply
solipsism - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - link1) So in 1976 when they first started out they were less successful than they are now as the world' largest publicly traded company? No fucking way! /s
2) The parts they use today are more specialized then any other time in Apple's history. Using an Intel processor doesn't change anything as the processors they used previously were also available to others. Just look at the Xbox 360 for proof.
3) Also note that Apple builds their ARM SoCs based on reference designs. Same goes for a lot of other components that Apple doesn't directly own but has invested heavily in and therefore has been given exclusive rights for a set period of time. Their display tech for the iPhone, iPad and now MBP come to mind. Reply
kevith - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI´l just second your opinion of the pissing contest.
And this isn´t even a Mac-review... Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkOh come on, we've got to compare. I'm learning here. Let them express. Reply
xype - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - link…and Apple was the first to figure it out, it seems.
At least Dell made the keyboard area black and put the sleep light in the center, that counts for something, amirite?
It's kind of weird that Apple's "think different" is becoming a "everyone be like Apple!". I love my MacBook Pro and iPad, but damn, it would feel nice to see an original design on the (big vendor) PC side now and then.
Why do these companies think people will buy a copy of an Apple design/hardware, if they can get the original just as well? Customers like choice, yes, but choice does not mean 5 vendors making the same laptop all over again.
No wonder the PC makers are struggling, they're all lead by unimaginative MBA retards. Reply
ananduser - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkYes PC makers are indeed struggling, Apple being one of them. Apple's PC lineup is also not the pinnacle of mobile computing. Get a grip. Reply
xype - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkNever said it was the pinnacle. But feel free to educate me how above industry average growth is "struggling" or, alternatively, show me some data for the past 5 years that shows Apple's sales dipping lower than those of their competitors.
Unless, for some reason, Apple gets paid with magic dollars that increase their value after Apple receives them, their PC profits do not come about from "struggling".
But hey, since you told me, I'm gonna get a real hard grip on my desk now while you look for data to support your claims. Wheee! Reply
ananduser - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkAbove average industry growth ? You should check Lenovo and Asus' numbers for above average growth, double digits. For the most recent quarter Apple stagnated. Reply
xype - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkUgh. Yeah, most recent quarter. That totally negates the past, what, 5 years? Apple is doomed! o_O Reply
ananduser - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkI didn't say that. You seem to extract Apple out of the PC landscape like they were pushing PowerPC hardware. Not anymore. Ever since they switched to Intel their growth was steady but small. So no Apple does not have above average industry growth. Other PC OEMs do. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkHey you got overconfident and he upped the ante and provided the heat that destroyed your smug appletude.
The least you should have done is take it like an appleseed, but instead you smarted off and made up a sucky strawman.
tsk tsk, Steve is disappointed. You're fired. Reply
yyrkoon - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkExcept, those "PC makers" who are "retards" actually contribute to the technology specifications. For hardware used in your precious Apple systems.
x86-64 CPU's /chipsets, nVidia graphics cards, SATA, PCIe, Thunderbolt, , etc, etc.
Matter of a fact. Apple did not even make the first laptop. Epson 1981, Microsoft 1982, Compaq 1988, IBM 1984, Radio Shack 1983 ( In collaboration with Microsoft ), and possibly NEC 1989 all had designs before Apple in 1989. Not to mention others dating back to 1979.
So who is thinking "differently" again ? Do not even get me started on OSX.
So, if not for the technology giants of the world. Apple would not even have existed. Like many others in the industry, they take the ideas from others, and improve on them. Improvement is also a subjective term in this situation. Reply
xype - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkWho contributes to technology specifications? Dell? Asus? Acer? HP?
Did Intel start targeting the ultra-low-power CPU specs because of all of these guys, who made the first "Ultrabook"?
And how "special" do you have to be to think I was claiming Apple made the first laptop? Duh?
Unibody aluminium enclosures, retina display, the ultrabook form factor, thunderbolt, etc are not popping up in Acers and Asuses and Dells first. I'm NOT claiming Apple is the end all be all (as some specialitos here seem to think), but they DO contribute their share to the ecosystem and claiming they don't and that they are just "assembling" PC parts is reeking of butthurt, especially seeing how HP and now Dell seem completely unable to make "premium" laptops that don't looks like MacBook knock-offs.
Which is my original point: it's annoying that they don't, because people are not buying only Macs and it would be really nice to have some hardware that actually looked different. They just don't give enough of a shit. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, July 27, 2012 - linkThe point was. Apple does currently makes a system that is based on PC ( x86 compatible ) parts. They do not come up with technology ideas. They buy decent / good parts and assemble them. Then they write a limited driver base into their operating system to support such hardware.
Which in fact is a good idea, but very limited. General purpose computing, that is limited by software support. For software titles, and additional hardware. Then, it is also very proprietary in comparison to other alternatives. You're locked into their hardware, and software.
The reason why OEM PC vendors "dont give a shit" is that such systems cost a lot, and PC system purchasers are cheap. If you were to compare lets say Dell to Apple. I think you would find that Dell probably sells many more systems *This* is an "Apple" to Apples comparison. Now, as for who actually makes more money . . . I have no idea. Nor do I care.
As far as who actually contributes to PC technology. Try using google. I think you would very likely find Intel, AMD, IBM, supermicro, and Epson among them. Then, many others in the PC industry like Asus. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkA black keyboard area is a scourge on us all.
Used to be you could see all laptop keyboards in the dark without back lighting, until the pliable masses were all doggy trained into loving black on everything - now they're just invisible past dusk. Pavlov man - the training is actually amazing.
Yeah, so strike one for the crap black keyboard and area, and I include the mindless drooling dogams in that strike as well.
That's also why they all make maccy looking clones- because the idiot masses respond like clockwork. Reply
yyrkoon - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkJarred, how about setting processor affinity to 2 cores only ? Then retesting a game or two ? The results should be interesting.
I'm thinking that game performance should get a boost, and CPU temps should drop some. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI'll look into this when working on the "final" review -- e.g. when the next A05 BIOS is officially released. For gaming in general, I don't think it will matter too much, as most don't tax all four cores. Still, stranger things have happened. Reply
yyrkoon - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkWell the reason why I say this Jarred. Is because of how I understand these CPU's throttle. If they do operate the way understand it. These should be able to clock higher with only two cores being used fully. Then a lot of games only really need 1-2 cores. But not all.
I myself have tried this on a game that I know is CPU dependent. It did not increase performance for the game, but it does help with heat. Well, performance wise, it did help because I was able to overclock the processor. Then remain inside the same heat envelope.
However, my system is based on an AMD A6-3400. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkSo I did a quick test just now. Setting Batman: AC affinity to cores 0-3 (or cores 0 and 2) resulted in throttling within the first 60 seconds or so of running the Batman benchmark. So I turned to ThrottleStop again and decided to go for broke and set the multiplier for "Turbo" (maximum) and disabled CPU PROC HOT. I reached a temperatures of 100C on the first two cores after running the benchmark three times, and while the laptop didn't crash I wouldn't be comfortable running those temps.
Next, I dropped the ThrottleStop multiplier to 26X and retested. Cores one and two still hit 98C after a few loops, and performance wasn't any better or worse (89-90 FPS for our "Value" 768p Medium settings). Then I tried ThrottleStop with the multiplier set to 23X but without any affinity setting. Performance went up slightly (91-92 FPS), and all four CPU cores topped out at around 91C, so overall performance was slightly up and temps were slightly down by just restricting the multiplier more rather than using CPU affinity.
Obviously, results for affinity will vary depending on game. Some games will benefit from additional cores (albeit slightly) and others really don't use more than two. If you're really hoping to control temperatures, though, setting a 23X multiplier as well as affinity should be a bit better than just TS alone. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, July 27, 2012 - linkJarred, thanks for taking the time to look into it.
It is a shame that what I was thinking did not pan out. It was a shot in the dark to begin with. Based on personal experiences of my own. So I think what that confirms in my mind anyhow is that Dell needs to work on a much better cooling design for this series of laptops. Maybe just putting in a higher RPM fan will work too. Like I think you had suggested.
Personally, I would not care if the case design were a bit thicker to allow for better cooling. Nor would I care if the laptop were a bit heavier too. But as I stated in another post, I am most likely not the norm in my laptop usage. Reply
alfling - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - link1) Please don't start here another "Apple fanboys vs Apple haters" battle like in most other reviews :)
2) To the reviewer: many people experienced significant drops in download speed (upload keeps constant) when being out of line of sight from the router, while with other laptops (also older ones) keeps being good. Could you please try to walk away from the router and check for us?
3) To the reviewer (again): I heard some people complaining that in white or very light screens (like Google homepage) they can clearly see the pixel grid of the display, but nothing official has come from Dell yet. Could you please tell us if you experience the same issue?
Thank you in advance! Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkWiFi connection speed over longer distances is a bit of a craps shoot, but I did read somewhere that Dell is working on tuning the WiFi performance as well. There are so many variables at play (just the type of router and the testing environment introduce all sorts of factors) that without doing a massive amount of work I couldn't say if the XPS 15 wireless is underperforming or not. I'll try to look into this a bit more for the final (next BIOS) review.
Regarding the LCD, I don't see the grid when looking at static content, but as I noted in the review, moving windows around really shows some "fuzziness" on high contrast edges. I see similar behavior on most TN panels, and it's caused by the 6-bit to 8-bit dithering/interpolation AFAIK. Trying to capture this in a picture or video would unfortunately require a better camera/lens than I have. Anyway, the LCD is better than a lot of displays, but the ASUS N56VM/VZ 1080p panel is better IMO, and so is the old XPS L501x LCD (which had better colors and gamut as well). Will most people notice? Nope, but enthusiasts and screen connoisseurs might. The "dithering effect" doesn't bother me, but the bluish cast of the LCD is definitely noticeable. Reply
alfling - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkThank you very much for your prompt reply Reply
rnmisrahi - Wednesday, November 14, 2012 - linkIndeed, there are many problems with the wireless card. Unless you're very near your router, the speed slows down to 2 mbps, while other older machines give me 30 mbps downstream, of course.
Look at this Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=x-KFW7_UxJM Reply
dragosmp - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkSo what's the point of a quad core Core i7 and a discrete GPU if the chassis can't cool them? So you do have 4 cores than can potentially go to 2.8GHz, but if you try to actually use them they'll get throttled to 1.2GHz; or at 1.8GHz if this is as much as the chassis can take, and by the way thanks Jarred for doing this bit of investigative journalism. Unless they accelerate the fan further and/or modify the cooling/chassis, with all the BIOS engineers in the world they won't be able to pull more than ~1.8GHz.
At this point I'm wondering, isn't the i7 a check box feature? From an engineering standpoint if the overall dissipation power of the chassis is xW you can take advantage of the thermal capacity and go over the xW for a certain period of time without passing the temperature threshold. Dell took this further: put a slim chassis with probably half the thermal capacitance of the old XPS 15, made it slimmer thus reduced the dissipation power and kept the same TDP CPU (which is itself surpassed while Turbo-ing). I wonder what if a 25W DC Core i5 would be faster than the 35W i7 in most apps, even heavy threaded apps, simply due to it keeping higher clocks per core.
As a engineer I see no point in this, but if I were a seller I sure wouldn't want to be the only one that doesn't support the fastest CPU as pointless as that may be. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI think the issue isn't the quad-core CPU so much as the total amount of power the cooling system needs to dissipate. If the GT 640M GDDR5 can use 40-45W of power (which seems about right) and the CPU uses up to 35W, then the cooling needs to be able to handle at least 75-80W of heat in order to avoid problems. Given what we're seeing with throttling, it looks like the cooling is probably only able to handle 60-65W, so something has to give.
As far as the quad-core being useless, keep in mind that I never saw any throttling when running just CPU-intensive workloads. It's only the combination of CPU and GPU both being loaded where we run into issues. Games do that, and professional CAD/CAM type programs would do it as well, but a lot of other tasks aren't really going to be a problem I don't think. Even video editing probably doesn't put enough of a strain on the GPU to trigger throttling -- though I'll have to look into that later. Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkIt just seems strange that they would ship a laptop which throttles in just minutes, this isn't even a super small ultrabook, it's a standard sized laptop. Maybe there's a problem with the physical seating of the heatsink? Or a BIOS issue maybe? Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkThey're working on the BIOS. I wondered about the problem being specific to my unit as well, but there are a lot of users reporting similar issues right now so that doesn't seem to be the case. Reply
dragosmp - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkThanks for the reply. I missed the point of it throttling only when using both CPU and GPU.It makes sense that they'd size the cooling for a "typical" TDP and not for the 100%TDP. This is usual practice when sizing cooling systems for high end products, by the same rationale you'd get a huge ugly stuff if one were to size the cooling radiators for a Ferrari for the airflow @20MPH New York traffic without the ECU reducing power. It is form over function and I would prefer to have the cake and eat it too, but this perfectly acceptable in my opinion. I probably misread that one can't use the CPU by itself without throttling, that would be unacceptable. Reply
alfling - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linklol you can't play 10 minutes without throttlestop...acceptable? whith that price?? Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkThe point is "fanboys". Thus it will be marketed and sold. Reply
nerd1 - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI've been a fan of anand site but I think it's getting bit ridiculous.
I don't think this laptop will have lot worse thermal compared to MBP or rMBP - Why I cannot see any 'torture' test on MBPs, like bootcamp + CPU benchmark + GPU benchmark? Many of my friends have MBP and I know they are toasty enough, and some reviewer reported throttling issue with rMBP with such a test.
And please compare apple to apples. How much apple charge for RAM or HDD upgrade? (It is plain stupid they are still using 5400rpm drive I think) How much does it cost to get SSD+HDD setup or blueray drive for macbooks? How much does it cost to upgrade macbook screen to 1680*1050? How easy is it to get discount coupons for them?
In practice, you can get a good windows laptop (like the new xps 15) at around $1200 (with easy-to-acquire coupons) and you have to pay full retail price of around $2000 for similarly spec'ed macbook pro 15. I do own a MBA (Which I think is still price-competitive) but all the MBP lines are just plain ripoff. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkGive me a break. I am one of the least pro-Apple people around, as I really dislike OS X -- just ask Anand. I do a price comparison on the front page showing how they stack up and conclude that in many areas Dell has the lead. What about throttling on Apple laptops? Well, sadly I'm not the one doing MBP reviews so I can't run those tests. What I can tell you is that Vivek repeatedly ran HL2:EP2 on the latest MBP15 to see if there was any drop in frame rates:
If I made a chart like that for the current A04 BIOS on the XPS 15, there would be a cliff after the first run, dropping from 160FPS to around 80FPS. But hopefully Dell can address that with the next BIOS. Will MBP15 throttle under a stress test workload? I'm almost sure it will, but perhaps not as badly as the XPS 15 right now. What about the Retina MBP? Well, that's a different beast with two fans and apparently significantly improved cooling, and early results suggest it doesn't have any issues with throttling.
Apple makes some very compelling laptops, but ultimately the only reason I would ever consider one is if I were willing to run OS X. I'm not, and thus laptops like the XPS 15 are very much something I want to succeed. A bit more fine tuning and hopefully Dell will get there, as the throttling is the biggest issue I have right now. (The only other major complaint I have is the good but not great LCD.) Reply
nerd1 - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI just wanted to point out macbook are way more expensive in practice.
And I don't think HL2:EP2 is a good benchmark for throttling - I'm pretty sure even internal graphics are sufficient to run them flawlessly these days. One german site used bootcamp and prime95 and they succeeded to make rMBP throttle at 1.2Ghz. Reply
headbox - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkHow about doing a RESELL price comparison?! You whine about Apple MBP cost, but in 2 years you can sell it for around 80% of what you paid for it, and tons of people will bid/call you about it. Sell a two-year-old Dell... that phone won't be ringing much, and you'll be lucky to get 50% of what you paid for it. I had the first gen unibody MBP- got it for $1800 and sold it 2.5 years later for $1500 within a couple hours of posting it on craigslist. Try to do that with a "cheaper" PC. Reply
alfling - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkSomeone who buys a 2-year-old used laptop for 80% of its original price (whatever laptop it is) is just a total idiot, no doubts about this. I guess it's full of idiot apple customers out there Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkLooks like the truth is less than half on not so old macs
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mac-Book-Pro-17-2-3Ghz-i7-... Reply
BillatDell - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkVery fair review, all things considered, Jarred. Thank you very much. I am the Dell employee you linked to out on Notebook Review Forums.
I am wondering if skin temps matter to you and the Anandtech audience. I'd be curious to see a skin temp comparison under similar loads between the XPS and any competitive system, particularly the rMBP and MBP. It may not have any impact on anyone's buying decision if they don't see the numbers, but it may or may not matter to others if there turns out to be a wide disparity. Hard to tell if the cost/benefit analysis of our having a hard set skin temp spec across the board for all platforms stands to reason, given pretty much universal approval of how the MBP performs and the obvious lack of popularity with our current thermal/throttling scheme.
Anyone else have any thoughts on skin temps, or is it a non-factor? I'm interested to hear and get some thoughts out here on the record.
Great community. Great site. Thanks for all you do. Reply
yyrkoon - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkIf I understand what you mean by "skin-temps" Bill. No for me personally it does not matter. The laptops I use currently serve as desktop replacements. As we are completely off-grid using solar, wind, and sometimes generators.
However, I would admit. That we are not the norm for most users.
My own personal concerns are getting what I paid for but, stability first. Just for example. I like to play a lot of games, but have many computer related hobbies. So gaming performance for me tends to be my own benchmark. Of course I also have a price range I tend to stick within.
Unfortunately for me, and Dell. The XPS series is generally out of my own price range. However that could change. With that said, I have been keeping an eye on your companies products. Specifically the XPS mobile line. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkHi Bill, glad to have you on here. Skin (surface) temperatures are something I used to report, but them my thermometer broke and we added a couple more laptop reviewers and I figured I would just forget it and use internal temperatures. What I'd REALLY love to get is one of those digital thermal imaging cameras, but sadly they're a bit too much for me to convince Anand to buy a couple.
As for what I think of skin temps, there's a balance that needs to be maintained, and certain areas can get hotter without bothering the user as much. If we're looking at a desktop replacement, it's not too big a concern, but for the more portable systems I definitely feel it's important. Ideally, I want the palm rest, keyboard, and the bottom "thigh" areas to be cooler, while the rear of the laptop (e.g. where the vent is on the XPS 15) can be hotter. 35C or less is generally what I'd like, but I live in WA so temperatures aren't as hot as, say, AZ or CA. If I were living in a hotter climate, I'd probably want even cooler running laptops.
Anyway, as you can probably glean from the review, I'd say you need stability as well as the ability to hit the rated performance on all parts. For the CPU, that means CPU clocks of 2.1GHz or higher regardless of workload should be possible pretty much indefinitely--and certainly if you're in a 75F or cooler environment. If the heatsink/fan can't keep the CPU and GPU at acceptable temperatures under load, then the hardware has been over-specced for the cooling. (We saw this exact same issue on Acer's TimelineX 3830TG, incidentally. Thin and light with reasonably fast hardware, but with gaming workloads the CPU would drop to 1.2GHz.)
My one thought that I keep coming back to on the XPS 15 is that it simply needs a higher RPM fan. Maybe the BIOS can kick the fan speed up one more level, but right now it just doesn't seem capable of cooling effectively at the current maximum RPM. A more drastic change would involve looking at the exhaust and trying to make that "breath" easier, as right now the bottom of the LCD/hinge seems to restrict airflow. Would either of these items be enough to fix the throttling problem? I don't know, but I am very surprised that this wasn't caught and addressed before retail units were shipping to the public.
Here's hoping we'll get a reasonable firmware fix in the near future! Reply
Voldenuit - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkOK, off the bat, I want to apologize for sounding like a broken record.
But I was vocally unhappy with the Acer sporting a TN panel at $1400, and I'm even more unhappy with the Dell doing the same thing at $1700. What makes manufacturers think they could (or should) get away with foisting this sort of crap on people?
Next time I should just skip to the LCD page before reading any further. :/ Reply
Grok42 - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI agree. My preference of OS in order is Linux, Windows, BeOS, OS X. I also hate laptops as they are typically slower, hotter and cost more than a desktop. That said, as of today my next computer will probably be a rMBP because of the screen. My profession is computers and ~$1000 is nothing compared to what I will gain with a better tool with which to do my work. The PC industry better wake up and start offering multiple 4k displays or they are going to be wiped out. Reply
Doomtomb - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI like Dell and I want to see them succeed in the consumer/enterprise PC market. However, this review of the new 2012 Dell XPS 15 reminds me of the same niggles I had with my Studio XPS 16 purchased in early 2010. The one area that my Studio XPS 16 will always dominate is display (RGB-LED 1080p) displays colors perfectly unlike the XPS 15. Both of these computers are very premium products with price tags to match. The problems with the Studio XPS 16 were build quality (lousy hinges, seems between aluminum parts), heavy, battery life, and heat. It tries to push the boundaries between size, style, build quality, and performance but you can't have it all. It ended up being too big and heavy and just not quite as powerful as my friend's Alienwares. The battery life was also sub-par for class. I'd just rather recommend getting a thin and light, a gaming desktop replacement, or a MacBook with Retina Display. Reply
antef - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkAfter the ridiculous overheating and throttling (to the point of an unusable machine) I've experienced with my Dell Precision, and reading this article with similar concerns, I can't imagine I'll be trusting a Dell for any high-performance workloads anytime soon. Reply
Death666Angel - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI was going to comment on how the MBP 15" gets mentioned in nearly every paragraph without being in the charts. Then I thought: "Well, they do have the Bench for those things." So I went there trying to compare this with the MBP 15" 2012. But you don't have the Dell there (yet) and you have no Apple 15" of any sort in there. How come? :-) Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkIndeed, I'd like some macs on there Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkEmail Anand or Vivek and tell them to get some Windows Boot Camp numbers! I'd do it myself if I had a Mac, but I'm not willing to buy one just to test Windows. (Note: Vivek *ought* to be doing Windows testing already, so hopefully we'll get numbers sooner rather than later.) Reply
ananduser - Friday, July 27, 2012 - linkI think Windows exclusive users should review Windows, like you. We don't want a site like the Verge where dedicated long time Apple fans(aka Verge staff) review Windows in a whimsical fashion. Reply
RDO CA - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkYour showing a 16x9 aspect for the Apple Reply
TheTechSmith - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkI feel "burned" to use Jarred's words by throttling caused by overheating with my 2008 M1330 :( It's performance has become so bad that after watching YouTube videos for half an hour or so it becomes so slow that I switch to my iPhone. It doesn't help that this computer has the defective Nvidia 8400M GS chip which just adds more heat to the mix and causes it to throttle faster. I've been reading about newer Dell XPS laptops in the user reviews and it's common to see someone complaining of throttling due to overheating. I just don't think Dell has the engineering ability to make a powerful computer compact... The one I have now is probably my last Dell for personal use. To be fair to Dell, my work computer is a Precision M4600, and it is huge but has never let me down. For personal use my next one is probably going to a Retina MacBook Pro. Reply
seapeople - Monday, July 30, 2012 - linkAgreed, Dell needs to work on improved cooling/thermals. While playing SCII at 1080p/high settings on my Dell 17" XPS L702x I get good framerates (~45-50 fps), but then after I installed HWMonitor I found that CPU temperatures frequently hit 97C after ~1 hour of playing. After seeing this I now run the game at 99% CPU (which disables turboboost), which still gives me ~40 fps, but temperatures now max out about 79C.
If I hadn't installed HWMonitor and noticed these ridiculous temperatures, I'd probably have a dead motherboard in a year, or worse yet just slightly out of warranty. Reply
Sunburn74 - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkStop mucking about you guys and give the people what they want! A definitive review on the Asus Zenbook Prime Reply
tahoward - Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - linkQuality chassis material and conservative/good look - Check
Good hardware platform - Check
Adequate platform cooling - Negatory
I really wanted to see this laptop succeed but saw the ship sinking fast after people on notebookreview's forums started reporting on their received units' throttling and "Faraday cage" wifi issues. Reading your stress bench results with throttlestop put the final nail in the coffin; otherwise, I would have returned my mid 2012 cmbp and save a good chunk of change purchasing Dell's l521x.
Guess getting all three of those check boxes checked comes at a premium. One that several people are willing to pay if fulfilled. Reply
pman6 - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkform over function.
throttling is unacceptable.
i wonder if it can manage not to overheat if the fan is turned to the max. Reply
blackrook - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkAre there any plans for a review of the Envy 15? A friend of mine purchased one for ~$1100 recently, and the hardware and aesthetics make it seem as if it would be an interesting alternative, especially with the IPS Radiance screen option.
Is HP holding out like they did with the Envy 14 a couple years ago? ;) Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkPretty much. I had hoped we'd get some of the new HP products for review, but so far hat hasn't happened. We'll keep asking, though. Reply
air_ii - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkGiven current fan / throttling profiles, wouldn't it be interesting to see gaming performance of a throttled i7/GF vs nominal (or perhaps turboed?) IGP performance? Perhaps the GF is completely pointless under circumstances? Reply
TC2 - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkThe best for the Best :) It's an excellent machine! Reply
TheTechSmith - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - link"And on a related note, I should mention that I've seen at least some minor throttling with several other "thin but fast" laptops, so Dell's not alone here; we'll be making a concerted effort to check for throttling on all future laptop reviews."
Yes! I think this is a great idea. I've believed for years that laptops like the one that you just reviewed have been slapped together without proper thermal design (lack of the required mechanical knowledge, reluctance to put in the required money/time?) in order to sell it on specs, and the end result is terrible, and I don't think there is enough awareness on this issue. I posted a little earlier on my XPS M1330 which is a 4 year old computer with the same issue. If reviews start testing for this specifically and compare laptops quantitatively against other laptops (temperature and average frame-rate of select games over time?), then perhaps companies that are poor in this area will hire the required mechanical engineers and dedicate the proper money and time to do it right. Reply
SovereignGFC - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkOn page 7, it was noted the laptop shut down under load after ThrottleStop was used to force it to run at a specified speed rather than the BIOS-controlled throttled speed.
According to Intel (http://ark.intel.com/products/64901), this CPU is rated for a TJunction (maximum core temperature) of 105C. The CPU only hit 100C during these tests, so that implies to me that CPU temperature, while VERY high, was within spec and should not have triggered a shut-down.
If the GPU hit its limit, that's a different story.
However, as an owner of an XPS1640, well-known for behaving similarly, I have to ask whether the A/C adapter Dell shipped is adequate for such a powerful machine. The A/C adapter was sized based on the machine being throttled, not unlocked the way ThrottleStop will permit it to run. I can offer at least one anecdote (many more can be found on NotebookReview's forums) about A/C adapter vs. thermals. This throttling was present in the Latitude E6X00 series of professional notebooks, one of which is owned by a friend. After showing him how he wasn't getting the performance he paid for, he un-throttled his CPU and ran Prime95 to test its thermals.
The machine shut down in a few minutes and the A/C adapter was too hot to touch for a while afterward.
Many XPS1640 owners reported that calling Dell, mentioning "throttling" and asking for a 130w A/C adapter allowed their machines to run properly under "full load." Even though components would be subjected to high heat (I've seen 103C on my Core 2 Duo, 88C on the GPU) they would also receive enough energy to operate as designed, rather than stressing or even destroying the A/C adapter in the process. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkI can't test this right now, but the thought that we might be exceeding the power limit did cross my mind. I don't think that's the case, however, as there are various triggers that can cause a system to shut down. I'm guessing Dell defined a maximum temperature of some other component, or that something on the motherboard is overheating. I'll look into power draw when I return home next week. Reply
SovereignGFC - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkThanks.
What annoys me the most is that we get these half-crippled machines that emphasize form over function. I don't care if it looks like a brick--it's a gaming machine and gaming machines need to dissipate huge amounts of heat.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/dell-xps-studio-xp... - That's a massive discussion about heat/power throttle on the 16XX series.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/dell-xps-studio-xp... - People are already talking about the L521X negatively, "it throttles so badly under a realistic gaming load that I'm returning it."
That said, I don't see any "load" (power) related throttling mentioned. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkYes, good points.
Doesn't matter if this site's is under performing from the lack of adequate ps as that is what end users will be receiving, except in the sense it would be nice to know. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was. I doubt they're going to purchase a 130W universal adapter to find out.
Great points, I agree with you, the insane emphasis on looks bothers me as well - it's even worse in discrete video cards, as you won't be staring at them as you game - with a laptop I can excuse quite a bit of it - as you will be looking at it a lot. Reply
SovereignGFC - Monday, July 30, 2012 - linkIf enough people complain (like the XPS 16), Dell will give out 130w adapters like candy, even though by themselves they did not solve the problem with the XPS 16. Only completely cutting the BIOS out of the CPU equation and replacing it with ThrottleStop let my laptop run like it was supposed to.
If tests on sites like Anand say "This laptop needs MO' POWAH!" then Dell will probably jump at a cheap "fix." I'm not saying we know for sure a larger adapter is required (that's what the tests will be for) but experience suggests power may be a factor. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 09, 2012 - linkJust to update (and spoil the surprise): I plugged the XPS 15 into a 135W Dell adapter; throttling still occurs just as quickly as before, so it's not a power adapter problem. Reply
JNo - Thursday, July 26, 2012 - linkI think the Acer M3 looks might tempting value when looking at the graphs. It's got about 90% of the power for about 50% of the price. Sure it's not all about specs and Acer's build quality and looks are nowhere near that of the Dell but I can't ignore that price differential.
So what are you really missing out with the Acer? Two things spring to mind: 1) no SSD - easy; buy your own and clone the HDD and you're still alot cheaper than the Dell with your own preferred brand and size of SSD. 2) The rubbish 1366x786 TN panel on the Acer. This is much trickier I prefer lower resolutions for games anyway but 1650x800 or 1080p would be much better for work. Only question is, can you buy and fit a better panel yourself cheaply if you're willing and able? Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, July 27, 2012 - link"I think the Acer M3 looks might tempting value when looking at the graphs. It's got about 90% of the power for about 50% of the price"
I think it would behoove you to do a bit of research on Acer products. By reading through user reviews from where ever you can find them. Most likely you will find many, many negative reviews. After that try talking to a few people you know personally who have owned Acer laptops.
Also if driver support is important for you. In the past Acer has been terrible in this department. Even if a well known part is included, you might find that upgrading your drivers might turn out to be a huge hassle, or even impossible.
If you're looking for a good deal though Dell, and many other companies have good deals a couple times a year. Usually found on deal sites like bensbargins.net. You have to pay attention for a while, and be fast though . . . Reply
JNo - Saturday, July 28, 2012 - linkI got an Acer for my dad and it's doing just fine after 3 years and he takes it out to do research on once or twice a week. I know a lot of people joke about them and that Thinkpads and Macs are better built but plenty of people say that they're actually ok with their Acers (it would behoove you to read a bit wider too I think).
People on anandtech and other tech sites are usually enthusiasts who often spend money on better kit but I can't afford to spend $100s on better build when Acer quality is 'good enough'. Either way it'll have to be upgraded in 5 years anyway. Mercedez and BMW have better build than Fords or Vauxhalls but I can't afford them either. Reply
yyrkoon - Saturday, July 28, 2012 - linkPoint being. You can pick up some incredibly great deals by not impulse buying. Without having to sacrifice too much.
Just right now there is an HP with a core i5 processor (2.4Ghz ) 6 gb RAM, an AMD 7670, with a 750GB HDD for under $600 ($575) Which I am almost willing to bet will outperform the reviewed laptop as it sits.
You're right though. Personally I can not afford to buy just any old laptop either. For many reasons. Cost is only one small aspect. Also, I can not afford to spend x amount of money only to have the darned thing break, and have it replaced, or spend money set aside for other things on shipping. To get the system repaired.
With all that said. I too have found several Acer systems tempting. Then I remember what I have written in the paragraph above. Which is I do not have time / money to spend screwing around with something that should already be working as intended. My values here are obviously going to be different than yours. As I have certain things I will put up with, and some which I will not.
Some cal that "peace of mind" Which is why Mercedes, and BMW exists. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkExcept that piece of mind often breaks down on the high end laptops as well.
Lots of lemons there, too.
A better way to go about it is not get the latest thing until enough test bunnies have done so and beaten it approrpiately to have a good answer on what doesn't work and what breaks.
I have to agree with the other fellow, I've seen a lot of Acer laptops that do well (perfect nothing breaks)over a very long haul, even many Vista models. Their downside is bloatware, and sometimes the re-installation of the webcam on a flat Win install - which can be a real pain - but that also occurs on Asus and other high end laptops.
So the bottom line is, bragging rights. Reply
yyrkoon - Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - linkWell, I own an Asus, and it cost me $400. Plays games all at acceptable speeds. and all that.
Own a Toshiba too, which also cost me $400 brand new. Doesn't play a lot of recent titles well, but it has served it's purpose. It is also 5 years old, looks and operates as if brand new.
Neither of these gave me issues when it came time to upgrade, or retrograde. Period, Both companies have drivers for just about every reasonable solution out there. And then some.
Also, that Acer M3 as reviewed by this site, sells for $1800 . . . SO yeah screw that. I can pick up and Asus with much better hardware, and software support for half the cost. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkYou see concerning this metal encased mac clone, they will put up with nearly anything and live with it.
Instead one could get a thicker off brand or branded beast and have zero throttling issues and a much prettier screen, but you know, when they are going for the drooling braggart's right to squirt that they have an aluminum shell, anything goes. Reply
Zak - Saturday, July 28, 2012 - linkThat's a really good looking laptop. What happened? Did Dell finally hired someone with sense of aesthetics??? But yeah, that trackpad is likely to be a problem for many. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 29, 2012 - linkLooks like a plain jane piece of crap to me - and I can clearly see the mac clone rounded corners.
It's all in the heads of the wannabe in crowd - sad, really sad. Reply
robco - Tuesday, July 31, 2012 - linkI use a MBP and I'm a little disappointed to see Dell reaching for a near four-year old design, but not being able to nail the thermals. My machine gets warm, but hasn't ever overheated. But the biggest concern is that customization is limited - even more than Apple. When I click on the configs in the Dell site, I can customize the software, but that's about it.
As for Apple not being innovative, you can say that about every other company in business today. They all stand on the shoulders of those who came before them. But as this demonstrates, how components are assembled and in what sort of enclosure does matter, especially in a laptop. Milling most of the structure out of a single piece of Al is pretty impressive. The fact that Apple can make laptops with fast CPUs and dedicated graphics that still manage to be under 1" thin and less than 6lbs is pretty good.
But one of the biggest criticisms of Apple has been the lack of options. It seems that Dell is moving toward selling fewer hardware configuration to keep costs down. Too bad, used to be one of their selling points. Reply
yyrkoon - Wednesday, August 01, 2012 - linkNo one can say that Apple does not assemble good parts into their MBP laptops. That is, if they expect to be taken seriously. Yes, their cases are superb too.
However, for people like me, that is not where the problem lies with Apple. In short, proprietary hardware, using proprietary software. At too much cost.
IF Apple sold their hardware, and Operating system separately / standalone. Personally I would have far fewer issues with them as a company. Also, I do not like their business model for their other mobile products
Honestly, I have about as much problem with Apple as I do with Microsoft. Maybe slightly more. Thing is, with Windows. IF it stops working for me. I can switch to Linux, BSD, or whatever other Operating system I care to use. All my own choice. On top of all that, i get to choose my own hardware as well.
So yeah, for me and people like me. "It simply *does not* work". Of course, we actually know how to use a computer too . . . Reply
robco - Thursday, August 02, 2012 - linkYou had some decent, respectable opinions, until that dig in the last line. Plenty of people who know how to use computers use Macs - especially the laptops. There are lots of people who fire up Terminal and use the CLI. Lots of *nix software works on OS X - because it is BSD. I know plenty of engineers sporting MacBooks. The stereotype of only computer novices using Macs is a tired one.
As for proprietary hardware, that's the case with most laptops. They're not like desktops where you can assemble one from standardized, interchangeable components. Sure the CPUs, drives and RAM may be, but not the motherboard, cooling system, case, GPU, battery, etc. You can't mix and match the parts you like about different Dell, HP and Lenovo laptops and make a Frankenstein box like you can with a desktop. Laptops are sold more or less as complete packages. You can get DIY kits in different sizes, but you're just installing the CPU, drives and RAM. There's a lot less choice. Reply
Luke2.0 - Saturday, August 04, 2012 - linkHi, Jarred. Good first look. Well done.
But I miss the audio / speaker test (You did it for the N56 Preview). You see, Dell was leveraging on their JBL speakers back then. And it helped their 2010 XPS15 to earn AT's gold medal.
How about the current offering?
I would love it be mentioned again, especially when you are going to update and finalize the review. Even if the testing would be somewhat reviewer-subjective, still I'm gonna appreciate your effort.
Thank you. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 09, 2012 - linkThe speakers are good, better than the 15z, but not as good as the original XPS 15 (L501x/L502x). I think that's because the last XPS 15 had a dedicated subwoofer, where this version does not. That's too bad. So basically, the earlier XPS 15 had a (much) better 1080p display, better audio quality, but worse build quality and aesthetics (though some of that is certainly subjective). Of course, with the proper power adapter, the original XPS 15 didn't have any issues with throttling that I experienced. Reply
alfling - Wednesday, August 08, 2012 - linkBIOS A06 is out! Could you please give it a try and tell us how it is in gaming? Thank you!
ftp://ftp.dell.com/FOLDER00719182M/1/L521XA06W.exe Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 09, 2012 - linkInteresting... where did you get that link from? Dell sent me a couple beta versions of A05 that didn't fix the throttling issues (actually, they throttled the GPU instead of the CPU, which was even worse for gaming). I haven't heard anything from them for the past 10 days or so, though, so I'm not sure what the current status is. I'm guessing that A06 is another beta, but I'll give it a shot and report back shortly.... Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 09, 2012 - linkOkay, I only tested with DiRT 3, because that's been very good at showing the throttling. It looks like the A06 (beta?) you linked is better than the A05 betas I've played with, but I can see exactly what Dell is trying to do and I don't like it. With the CPU and GPU loaded (i.e. playing a game), the CPU is no longer throttling. At all. So throughout 10 minutes of running DiRT 3 tests, the CPU always had at least one (usually two or three or all four) CPU cores running at 2.8GHz (2795.5-2795.9 MHz to be precise). The problem is the CPU is thus still generating a decent amount of heat, and in order to compensate Dell is throttling GPU clocks.
Looking at the GPU, after about 2.5 minutes (and over half of that time is spent launching DiRT 3), the "GPU Geometry Clock" drops from 708.8 (Boost Clock) to 669.8 MHz (still boosting but not as much), and then about 10 seconds later it drops to 615 MHz (now slightly lower than "stock"), and after a few more seconds it drops way down to 405MHz. There are even times where the GPU clock drops down to 270 MHz -- so basically running at less than half the expected GT 640M clock speed. At the same time, the GPU Memory Clock starts at 1000.4 MHz (4GHz effective) and stays there for the first 2.75 minutes, and then the clock starts to fluctuate between 1000MHz and 400MHz.
Ultimately, you get a much better gaming experience with the CPU running at a steady 1.8GHz with the GPU at maximum clocks than dropping GPU clocks while leaving the CPU at max -- so from that perspective, the A04 BIOS is still better, especially if you're willing to play with ThrottleStop.
Temperatures incidentally are higher than I saw with A04 -- I'm seeing a maximum of 92C on the CPU (but the throttling causes the temps to drop quite quickly after that to around 85C). and the GPU tops out at around 81C. And this is all just in 10 minutes of testing. But then, I'm using the built-in DiRT 3 benchmark, so let me try actually playing the game to see if that's any different.... Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 09, 2012 - linkSo, as expected the issues carry over into the actual gameplay, and in fact the GPU throttling is even worse than I at first suspected -- not that it occurs more frequently, but that it really messes up the experience. I'm still seeing steady 2.8GHz CPU clocks with the GPU usually at 405MHz after the first couple of minutes, but the GPU memory going back and forth between 1000MHz and 400MHz causes very noticeable fluctuations in frame rates. One second everything will be going smoothly, and the next you feel the lag and the slower frame rates, and then it kicks back to higher speed.... It might not be as bad in some other games, but in DiRT 3 it makes it very hard to drive a consistent line, with the game actually slowing down and speeding up. Ugh.
I also tried the A06 BIOS with ThrottleStop, and while it took longer for the GPU to throttle, it did after a few minutes. Then it stayed at 405MHz most of the time (with one 10 second drop to 270MHz), and the VRAM was more commonly at 1000MHz, but the 400MHz VRAM clocks do show up periodically and really mess with the gaming experience.
So in short, A06 is still beta in my book, and I prefer A04 with the CPU throttling rather than A06 with GPU throttling.
On a different note, when I flash the BIOS there's clearly one higher fan speed that kicks in that I'm not seeing in normal use. At this point, Dell should be looking at CPU clocks in gaming workloads closer to 2.1GHz and they should be running the maximum fan speed once the CPU core hits 80C. I'd be okay if they limited the CPU clock to 2.4 GHz any time the GPU clock was higher than 270MHz, personally -- it's not ideal, but it's far better than what's currently happening. Reply
Flunk - Sunday, August 12, 2012 - linkHi Jarred, I have one of these and your experiences above mirror what I'm seeing. I've had 2 different L521x units in my house and they both perform identically (first one had a bad screen).
Even if you set the CPU speed to 99% in power options to prevent boosting on A06 (which is up on their standard page now) it still downclocks the GPU in much the same way.
Frankly it is quite infuriating that Dell would sell such and obviously flawed product in the first place. There is no reason to have a dedicated graphics chip if you can't use it.
At this point I'm hoping that they get back to me and tell me they're going to replace the thermal solution because it doesn't seem like they can figure out how to do this with a BIOs update.
Thanks for bringing this up in your review, the more pressure Dell has on them to fix this the better. Reply
alfling - Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - linkDid you experience any drops in battery life with A06 BIOS? I ask because of this post in notebookreview:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/dell-xps-studio-xp... Reply
alfling - Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - linkThank you very much! I got the link in Notebookreview forum from an XPS 15 owner (not sure how he got it, but he shared it) Reply
doubledeej - Monday, August 13, 2012 - linkI've bought Dells almost exclusively for 15 years and for the first time they don't offer a machine that meets my needs.
I'm a developer, so I type an awful lot. And Dell, along with most other laptop manufacturers, seems to think that nobody actually does any editing on their computers any longer. The omission of dedicated Home, End, Page Up and Page Down keys kills productivity. Yes, I know there is a Fn+ keyboard combo to get to these... but it really hurts the brain when you have to start thinking about holding Control, Shift, and Fn before pressing the left arrow to highlight a document from the current location to the beginning... four keys for any operation is too many.
It saddens me that computer vendors don't think of their power users when designing machines. Who else are going to be their biggest cheerleaders? Reply
alfling - Thursday, August 23, 2012 - linkstill no review of Dell Inspiron 15R SE? Reply
alfling - Friday, August 24, 2012 - linkDear Jarred Walton, can you please retest gaming with A06 BIOS? Reply
ogrfnkl - Saturday, August 25, 2012 - linkWell, the A06 BIOS update is out as of 8/8/2012, and according to the description on the Dell website, it does address some thermal issues. Specifically, it says: "Set the temps control Tc at 80 degree C for GPS on Sbios. Based on EC X43 version and cut in thermal table V08." Whatever the heck that's supposed to mean! :<
It would be great to know whether or not, and to what extent, this update fixes the thermal and throttling issues described in the review. I hope Jarred can re-run the gaming tests and post the new results soon...
Thanks! Reply
ogrfnkl - Saturday, August 25, 2012 - linkSorry, sorry, I hadn't checked the previous messages -- the new testing has already been done. Thanks, Jarred! Reply
tipoo - Sunday, August 26, 2012 - linkhttp://forum.notebookreview.com/dell-xps-studio-xp... Reply
ogrfnkl - Sunday, August 26, 2012 - linkFirst of all, the thread you've pointed to is from BEFORE the 8/8/2012 A06 update, which is the fix "Dell-Bill_B" is talking about. Second, here is a post by "Dell-Bill_B" from a little further on in the thread (http://forum.notebookreview.com/dell-xps-studio-xp... which I think pretty much gives us the final answer on this whole thermal/throttling topic:
"If you require a system that will run the CPU and GPU at 100% load concurrently for more than a few seconds, you bought the wrong system."
Doesn't get any clearer than that, does it? This pretty much nails it for me; I'm starting to look elsewhere for my next system... My question is, why would anyone NOT expect their computer to run at its top speed for a lot more than a few seconds? If it can't, that top speed is completely useless, isn't it? I'd much rather go for an L502x, whose top speed is a few % slower than the L521X's, but it actually CAN and does sustain it indefinitely. Not to mention the absolutely, mindblowingly gorgeous screen on that system. Reply
stcloude - Sunday, October 14, 2012 - linkDell is on revision A11 of the BIOS. Has this revision resolved the throttling issue at all? I am really disappointed that it has the throttling and wifi issues. I need a new laptop, and wanted something with the build quality of the MacBook Pro, and really thought this was it. I am so tempted to go with Mac, but unfortunately my job requires that I have a PC. Reply
Tobi KKKK - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkI am also interested in the throttling behaviour under load.
Meanwhile, Dell has published A12 of the BIOS.
- Has this revision reduced or at least resolved the throttling issue?
- Do you recognize a progress from A06 to A12?
- Do you think Dell is able to solve the htermal issues via BIOS?
Could you please give it a try and tell us your assessment? Thank you very much! Reply