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Half-Life 2 Performance Benchmark Previewby Anand Lal Shimpi on 9/12/2003 12:34 AM EST
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- GPUs
111 Comments
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uturnsam - Friday, November 28, 2003 - link#110 continued
Now I know why the guy behind the counter told me to steer clear of the ATI Radeon cards because of the known compatability problems when running games.
(Computer sales guy thinking-I just read the article in the AnandTech post)
Translated: I have a shit load of Nvidia cards and if I don't lie my ass off to my Customer's it will be game over for me!!!
The only reason I started looking at ATI cards was I decided to spend what I saved on the CRT monitor (over the $$LCD) for higher performer card. Mr $Sales$ had me convinced I would be buying an inferior card with ATI. Worth shopping around and scouring reviews :O) Reply
uturnsam - Friday, November 28, 2003 - linkI was going to buy a Geforce5600 but looked at a 9600Pro today the thing is I was wondering if I should really blow the budget and lash out on a 9800Pro.
I am so glad I came across this article I will stick with the 9600Pro, save some cash, sleep better at night and know when half life 2 is released I will be getting the best performance for the outlay.
Anonymous User - Thursday, October 16, 2003 - linkyou can count on your 9500 being in between the 9800 and the 9600, about 30% frame rate above the 9600. the 4 pipelines will help.
Anonymous User - Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - linkI would like to see a test of the dx8 paths on some of the really older cards for those of us who are too broke for these new ones!!
For instance, I have a geforce2 GTS that I love very much and works just fine on everything else. I don't want to have to upgrade for one game. Reply
Anonymous User - Sunday, September 21, 2003 - linkI would like to see how they compare with a 5900 using Detonator 44.03 driver. Yes I know its an older driver. But in my tests it provided higher benchmarcks than the 45.23 driver.
Has any body else noticed this?
Anonymous User - Friday, September 19, 2003 - linkSo actually Nvidia shader(16/32) are not
comparable with ATI shader(24-ms dx9 standard)!
Too bad in a way or another they try to cheat
again and again.......
Very bad idea! Reply
Anonymous User - Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - link#104, the benchmarks and anand's analysis show that hl2 is gpu power limited, not memory/fillrate limited... the 9600 will be limited more by that than by memory or fillrate. Reply
Anonymous User - Monday, September 15, 2003 - linkI think #84 mentioned this, but I didn't see a reply. In the benches, the 9600 pro pulled the exact same (to within .1 fps, which could just be roundoff error) frame rates at 1024 and 1280.
I don't think I've ever seen a card bump up res without taking a measurable hit (unless it was cpu-limited). In every other game, the 9600 takes a hit going from 1024 to 1280. And the 9700 and 9800 slow down when the resolution goes up, even though they're basically the same architecture. Someone screwed up, either the benchmarks or the graphs. Reply
Anonymous User - Monday, September 15, 2003 - link#61 Did you take the time to see that valve limited their testing use. Anandtech had no say in all the tests because they were very time limited. Also, try to make coherent sentences. Reply
Anonymous User - Sunday, September 14, 2003 - linkIt's not as if GIFs gobble bandwidth, I (as CAPTAIN DIALUP) don't even notice them loading. They're tiny. Even though I don't have trouble receiving this Flash stuff, it pisses me off, because sometimes the same scores will load for all the pages. Why not have a poll or something on this? Reply
Anonymous User - Sunday, September 14, 2003 - linkUmm.. could you PLEASE not use shockwave for those
tables? Our firewalls & browser configs also won't let it through, so these reviews become pretty much useless to read. Reply
Anonymous User - Sunday, September 14, 2003 - linkwhere are the benchmarks comparing HL2 at different CPUs? I mean, i obviously know I'm gonna have to upgrade my gf3 to a new card (first game to make me even think of that... didnt care for ut2k3), but what about my venerable athlon xp 1800+ ? :( Reply
Anonymous User - Saturday, September 13, 2003 - link#98, look at the 9700 Pro numbers, subtract 4-5%.
Still, if I were to see another set of benchmarks, I'd DEFINITELY want these:
GeForce4 MX440 OR GeForce2 Ti - As an example of how well GF2/GF4MX cards perform on low detail settings, being DX7 parts.
GeForce3 Ti200 OR GeForce3 Ti500 - It's a DX8 part, and still respectably fast; lots of people have Ti200s, anyway.
GeForce4 Ti4200 - This is an incredibly common and respectably fast card, tons of people would be interested in seeing the numbers for these.
GeForce FX 5600 Ultra - Obvious.
GeForce FX 5900 Ultra - Obvious.
Radeon 8500 - It's still a good card, you know.
Radeon 9500 Pro - Admit it, you're all interested.
Radeon 9600 Pro - Obvious.
Radeon 9700 vanilla - Because it would show how clock speed scales, and besides these (and softmodded 9500s) are quite common.
Radeon 9700 Pro - Obvious.
Radeon 9800 Pro - Obvious.
The GeForce FX 5200 and GeForce4 Ti4600 might be nice too, but the Radeons 9000 through 9200 would be irrelevant (R200-based).
Also, obviously, I'd like to see them on two or three different detail levels (preferably three), to show how well some of the slower ones run at low detail and see how scalable Source really is. Speaking of scalability, a CPU scaling test would be extremely useful as well, like AnandTech's UT2003 CPU scaling test.
This sort of thing would probably take a lot of time, but I'd love to see it, and I bet I'm not alone there. I think something like what AnandTehc did with UT2003 would be great.
Just my ~$0.11. Reply
clarkmo - Saturday, September 13, 2003 - linkI can't believe the Radeon 9500 hacked to a 9700 wasn't included in the benchmarks. What was he thinking? I guess Anand didn't have any luck scoring the right card. There are some still available, you know. Reply
Anonymous User - Saturday, September 13, 2003 - linkQuote from the Irari information minister:
"Nvidia is kicking ATI's butt. Their hardware is producing vastly superior numbers." Reply
Anonymous User - Saturday, September 13, 2003 - linkNvidia quote: "Part of this is understanding that in many cases promoting PS 1.4 (DirectX 8) to PS 2.0 (DirectX 9) provides no image quality benefit."
3Dfx said some years ago that no one ever would use or notice the benefits of 32 bit textures. Nvidia did and 3Dfx is gone. Will Nvidia follow the 3Dfx path? Reply
Anonymous User - Saturday, September 13, 2003 - linkAnyone remember when ati.com sold rubber dog crap? Reply
Pete - Saturday, September 13, 2003 - link#74, straight from the horse's mouth:
"The GeForce FX is currently the fastest card we've benchmarked the Doom technology on and that's largely due to NVIDIA's close cooperation with us during the development of the algorithms that were used in Doom. They knew that the shadow rendering techniques we're using were going to be very important in a wide variety of games and they made some particular optimizations in their hardware strategy to take advantage of this and that served them well. --John Carmack"
Of course those D3 numbers were early (as are these HL2 ones), so things can change with updated drivers. Reply
Anonymous User - Saturday, September 13, 2003 - linkI don't know if it has already been asked, but even if it has I ask again for emphasis.
Anand, it would be nice if you could add a 9600 non-pro bench to the results. You mention raw GPU power being the determining factor now, and as the 9600 Pro's difference in memory clock is more significant than its engine clock, it would be interesting and informative to the budget/performance croud to note the 9600 non-pro performance in HL2.
Thanks for all your informative, insightful, accurate, in-depth articles. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI always find it interesting how people say ATI is the "little guy" in this situation.
ATI has been a major player in the video card market since the eighties (I had a 16-bit VGA Wonder stuck in an 8-bit ISA slot in an 8088/2 system) and that didn't change much even when 3dfx came onto the scene. A lot of those voodoo pass through cards got their video from an ATI 3d expression or some other cheap 2d card (Cirrus Logic or Trident anyone?).
Nvidia and ATI have been at each others throats ever since Nvidia sold its first video card on the OEM market. 3dfx was just a little blip to ATI, Nvidia stealing away a bunch of its OEM sales with a bad 2d/good 3d video card on the other hand, well, that was personal.
I imagine someone at ATi saying something like this:
"All of you guys working on making faster DACs and better signal quality are being transferred to our new 3d department. Its sort of like 2d cept its got one more d, thats all we know for right now.".
ATI knows how to engineer and build a video card, they have been doing it for long enough. Same with Matrox (Matrox builds the Rolls Royce's of video cards for broadcast and video editing use), Nvidia on the other hand knew how to build 3d accelerators, and not much else. The 2d on any early Rage card slaughtered the early Nvidia cards.
Course, the 3d sucked balls, thats what a Canopus Pure 3d was for though.
Now ATI has the whole "3d" part of the chip figured out. The driver guys have their heads wrapped around the things as well (before 3d cards came around ATI's drivers were the envy of the industry). Its had many years of experience dealing with games companies, OS companies, standards, and customers. And its maturity is really starting to show after a few minor bumps and bruises.
ATI wants its market back, and after getting artx it has the means to do it. Of course, Nvidia is going to come out of this whole situation a lot more grown up as well. Both companies are going to have to fight blood tooth and nail to stay on top now. If they don't Matrox might just step up to the plate and bloody both of their noses. Or any of those "other" long forgotten video card companies that have some engineers stashed away working on DX 7 chips.
God knows what next month is going to bring.
Anyways, sorry for the rant.. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkAnand: When you re-test with the Det 50's, make sure you rename the HL2 exe!!!
Gotta make the comparison as fair as possible... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#69 How does the 9500 not fully support DX9? It's the same core EXACTLY as the 9700. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#53 - So YOU'RE that bastard who's been lagging us out!!! Get out of the dark ages! Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkWhat kind of conclusion was that ?
In terms of the performance of the cards you've seen here today, the standings shouldn't change by the time Half-Life 2 ships - although NVIDIA will undoubtedly have newer drivers to improve performance. Over the coming weeks we'll be digging even further into the NVIDIA performance mystery to see if our theories are correct; if they are, we may have to wait until NV4x before these issues get sorted out.
For now, Half-Life 2 """ SEEMS """ to be best paired with ATI hardware and as you've seen thorugh our benchmarks, whether you have a Radeon 9600 Pro or a Radeon 9800 Pro you'll be running just fine. Things are finally """heating up""" and it's a good feeling to have back...
HL2 ""seems"" better on ATI??? , should be, HL2 looks way better and faster on ATI.
Things are finally """heating up""" ??? shoul have been , ATI's performance is killing Nvidia's FX.
The conclusion should have been :
Nvidia lied and sucks , Valva had to lower standard ( actually optimize (cheat) in favor of Nvidia) and make HL2 game look bad , just so you could play on your overpriced Nvidia Fx cards.
How about a word of apology from Anand to have induced readers in errors , and have told them to buy Nvidia Fx card's in is last Fx5900 review. ???
From a future ATI card owner, (bundled with HL2 of course)
Boy I'm pissed off!
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link82, those are 9600 regulars (!), click the links. Pricewatch has been fooled. A Pro isn't much more, though, just about $136.
I'd go with a 9500 over a 9600 any day. The 9500 can be softmodded to 9700 performance levels (about 50-70% of the time, IIRC, and it's actually a little cheaper than the 9600 Pro!). If the softmod doesn't work out, then you return it for a new one. Of course, not everyone wants to do this, and a 9600 Pro is a respectable and highly overclockable card.. but..
I'd still love to see 9500 Pros at lower prices, like they would have been if ATi had kept it out.. but whatever. If you don't know, the 9500 Pro is/was considerably faster than the 9600 Pro. Valve said that HL2 isn't memory-limited, so the 128-bit memory interface on the 9500 Pro (which never made a big difference vs. the 9700 anyway) shouldn't even be noticeable, and the fact that the Sapphire-made ones were just as overclockable as the 9500 regulars and 9700s (think up to 340 core, 350 if you're lucky) is going to make it one HELL of an HL2 card for the $175 most people paid. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkNvidia got schooled, but not on hardware or drivers. ATI locked this up long ago with their deal with Gabe and buddies.
Why is everyone just trying to keep a straight face about it? ATI paid handsomely for exactly what has happened to NVidia.
But as always happens, watch out when the tables turn, as they ALWAYS do, and Valve could be on the OUTSIDE of lots of other deals. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI am just glad there is finally a damn game that can stress out these video cards. Wonder if Bitboys Oy of whatever there name is come out saying they have a new video card out now that will run Half Life 2 at 100+ FPS :) What made me think of them I have no idea! Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkNot to detract from the main issue here, but #19 raises a good point. Why does the 9600Pro lose only <1% performance going from 1024 to 1280? The 9800P and 9700P lose between 10-15%. The 5900U loses 30%, sometimes more. I wonder if the gap between the 9800P and 9600P shrinks even more at higher resolutions.
What aspect of the technology in the 9600 could possibly account for this? Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#81 You can find 9600pro's for ~$160 from newegg.
A couple of small webstores have a "Smart PC 9600" non-pro 128 meg for <$100. But the smart pc card is a cheap oem unit...I'm not sure if it's as good as the more expensive 9600's. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkPricewatch:
$123 - RADEON 9600 Pro 256MB
$124 - RADEON 9600 Pro 128MB
atlr - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link
Quote from http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.html?i=1863...
"The Radeon 9600 Pro manages to come within 4% of NVIDIA's flagship, not bad for a ~$100 card."
Anyone know where a ~$100 9600 Pro is sold? I thought this was a ~$200 card. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkTime to load up on ATI stock :) Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkQuoted from Nvidia.com:
"Microsoft® DirectX® 9.0 Optimizations and Support
Ensures the best performance and application compatibility for all DirectX 9 applications."
Oops, not this time around... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#74 - No, D3 isn't a DX9 game, its OGL. What it shows is that the FX series isn't bad - they just don't do so well under DX9. If you stick primarily to OpenGL games and run your DX games under the 8.1 spec, the FX should perform fine. It's the DX9 code that the FXes seem to really struggle with. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#74: I have commonly heard this blamed on a bug in an older release of the CATALYST drivers that were used in the Doom3 benchmark. It is my understanding that if the benchmark was repeated with the 3.7 (RELEASED) drivers, the ATI would perform much better.
#75: I believe this goes back to prior instances where Nvidia has claimed that some new driver would increase performance dramatically to get it into a benchmark and then never release the driver for public use. If this happened, the benchmark would be unreliable as it could not be repeated by an end-user with similar results.
Also, the Det50 drivers from Nvidia do not have a working fog system. It has been hinted that this could be intentional to improve performance. Either way, I saw a benchmark today (forgot where) that compared the Det45's to the beta Det50's. The 50's did improve performance in 3DMark03 but no where near the 73% gap in performance seen in HL2. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkBecause Gabe controls how representative the hl2 beta is of the final hl2 product but he cannot control how representative the nvidia det50 beta is if the final det50s.
And besides that there have been rumours of "optimalisations" in the new det50s. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkHow is it that Gabe can recommend not running benckmarks on an publicly unavailable driver or hardware, yet the game itself is unavailable? Seems a little hypocritical.... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI didn't have time to look into this but can someone enlilghten me as to why the 5900 Ultra outperformed the 9800 PRO in the Doom 3 benchmarks we saw awhile back...is that not using DX9 as well? If I am way off the mark here or am even wrong on which outperformed which go easy on the flames!
Thanks Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link"Not true, the 9500 is a true DX9 part. The 9600 does have faster shader units though."
My bad, should have looked at ATI first. I guess I'm thinking about the 8500. Either way, I would still go 9600 Pro, especially given that it is cheaper than a 9500 non-pro. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link"The 9600 fully supports DX9 whereas the 9500 does not."
Not true, the 9500 is a true DX9 part. The 9600 does have faster shader units though. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI think the insinuation is clear from that nVidia email posted and Gabe's comments. Valve believed nVidia was trying to "cheat" with their D50s by intentionally having fog disabled etc. Rather than toss around accusations, it was simpler for them to just require that the benchmarks at this point be run with released drivers and avoid the issue of currently bugged drivers with non-working features, whether the reason was accidental or intentional.
Considering that the FXes fared poorly with 3DMark and again with HL2 - both using DX9 implementations, I think it might be fair to say that the FXes aren't going to do too much better in the future. Especially considering the way they reacted to 3DMark 03 - fighting the benchmark rather than releasing drivers to remedy the performance issue.
I'd like to see how the FXes do running HL2 with pure DX8 rather than DX9 or a hybrid, as I think most people owning current nVidia cards are going to have to go that route to achieve the framerates desired. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI dont see how the minimum requirements set but valve are going to play this game. 700mhz and a TNT2. The FX5200's could barely keep up. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#68: 33 fps * 1.73 = 57.09 fps (add the one to account for the intial 33 score).
This doesn't quite work out based on the 57.3 score of the 9800 Pro so corrected score on the Nvidia was probably closer to this:
57.3 / 1.73 = 33.12 fps
#69: I would definitely try to find a 9600 Pro before I bought a 9500 Pro. The 9600 fully supports DX9 whereas the 9500 does not. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkGuess Its time to upgrade...
Now where's my &*&%%'n wallet!!
Wonder where I'll be able to find a R9500Pro (Sapphire) Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkThe performance increase between the FX5900 and Rad9800Pro is not 73%. Do the math correctly and it turns into 36.5% lead. The article should be revised. Reply
atlr - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkIf anyone sees benchmarks for 1 GHz computers, please post a URL. Thanks. Reply
WooDaddy - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkHmmm... I understand that Nvidia would be upset. But it's not like ATI is using a special setting to run faster. They're using DX9.. Nvidia needs to get on the ball. I'm going to have to upgrade my video card since I have a now obsolete Ti4200 GF4.
I might just sell my Nvidia stock while I'm at it. HL2 is a big mover and I believe can make or break the card on the consumer side. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI had just ordered a 5600 Ultra thinking it would be a great card. It's going back.
If I can get full DX 9 performance with a 9600 Pro for around $180, and that card's performance is better than the 5900 Ultra - then I'm game.
I bought a TNT when Nvidia was making a name for it's self. I bought a GF2 GTS when Nvida was destroying the 3dfx - now Nvidia seems to have droped the ball on DX9. I want to play HL2 on what ever card I buy. A 5600 ultra won't seem to cut it. I know the 50's are out there, but I've seen the Aquamark comparision with the 45's and 50's and I'm not impressed.
I really wanted to buy Nvidia, but I cannot afford it.
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#62: I do have the money but I choose to spend it elsewhere. FYI: I spend $164 US on my 2.4C and I'm running speeds faster than the system used for this benchmark.
"The Dell PCs we used were configured with Pentium 4 3.0C processors on 875P based motherboards with 1GB of memory. We were running Windows XP without any special modifications to the OS or other changes to the system."
Anand was using a single system to show what HL2 performance would be on video cards available on the market today. If we was to run benchmarks on different CPU's he would have to spend a tremendous amount more time doing so. In the interest of getting the info out as soon as possible, he limited himself to a single system.
I would deduce from the performance numbers of HL2 in Anand's benchmarks that unless you have a 9600 Pro/9800 Pro, your AMD will not be able to effectively run HL2. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkWoohoooo!!!
My ATI 9500@9700 128MB with 8 pixel pipelines and 256bit access beats the crap out of any FX.
And it only costed me 190euros/190dollars
Back to the drawing board NVidia.
Muahahahah!!! Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#61.. i take it YOU have the money to shell out for top of the line hardware ????????? i sure as hell don't, but like #42 said, " more widely used comp "
i my self am running a 1700+ at 2400+ speeds, no way in hell am i gonna go spend the 930 bucks ( in cdn funds )on a 3.2c P4, thats NOT inc the mobo and ram, and i'm also not gonna spend the 700 cdn on a barton 3200+ either, for the price of the above P4 chip i can get a whole decient comp, may not be able to run halflife at its fullest, but still, i'm not even interested in HL2, it just not the kind of game i play, but if i was, whay i typed above, is still valid..
anand... RUN THESE HL2 BENCHES ON HARDWARE THE AVERAGE PERSON CAN AFFORD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! not he spoiled rich kid crap ..... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#42 "...should have benchmarked on a more widely used computer like a 2400 or 2500+ AMD...":
The use of 'outdated' hardware such as your 2400 AMD would have increased the possibility of cpu limitations taking over the benchmark. Historically all video card benchmarks have used the fastest (or near fastest) GPU available to ensure the GPU is able to operate in the best possible scenario. If you want to know how your 2400 will work with HL2, wait and buy it when it comes out.
In reference to the 16/32 bit floating point shaders and how that applies to ATI's 24 bit shaders:
It was my understanding that this quote was referencing the need for Nvidia to use it's 32 bit shaders as future support for its 16 bit shaders would not exist. I don't see this quote pertaining to ATI's 24 bit shaders as they meet the DX9 specs. The chance of future HL2 engine based games leaving ATI users out in the cold is somewhere between slim and none. For an example of how software vendor's react to leaving out support for a particular line of video card, simply look at how much work Valve put into making Nvidia's cards work. If it was feasible for a software vendor to leave out support for an entire line like your are refering to (ATI in your inference) we would have had HL2 shipping by now (for ATI only though...). Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link58, http://myweb.cableone.net/jrose/Jeremy/HL2.jpg Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkAre pixel shader operations anti-aliased on current generation video cards? I ask because in the latest Half Life 2 technology demo movie, anti-aliasing is enabled. Everything looks smooth except for the specular highlights on the roof and other areas, which are still full of shimmering effects. Just seems a little sore on the eyes.
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkAn observation:
Brian Burke = Iraqi Information Officer
I mean this guy rode 3dfx into the dirt nap and he's providing the same great service to Nvidia.
Note to self: Never buy anything from a company that has this guy spewing lies. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkOK, this article was great.
For us freaks, can you do a supplement article. Do 1600x1200 benchmarks!!!
Things will probably crawl, but it would be nice to know that this should be the worst case at this resolution when ATI and NVidia come out with next gen cards.
Also, was any testing done to see if the benchmarks were CPU or GPU limited? Maybe use the CPU utilization montior in Windows o see what the CPU thought. maybe a 5.0 GHz processor down the road will solve some headaches. Doubtful, but maybe.... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkWhats really funny is that Maximum PC magazine built an $11000 "Dream Machine", using a GeforeFX 5900 and i can built a machine for less then $2000 and beat it using a 9800 pro.
Long Live my 9500 pro! Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI can play Frozen Throne and I am doing so on a GeForce2MX LOL (on a P2@400mhz). Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linklook at my #46 posting - i know it's different engines, different API's, different driver revisions etc...
but still it's interesting..
enigma Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#52 different engines, different results. hl 2 is probably more shader limited than doom 3. The 9600pro has strong shader performance, which narrows the gap in shader limited situations such as hl 2.
btw, where did you get those doom 3 results? Only doom 3 benches I know about are based off the old alpha or that invalid test from back when the nv35 was launched... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkanother thing i just noticed looking at the doom 3 and hl2 benchies.
take a look at the performance of 9800pro and 9600pro...
in hl2, the 9800pro is about 27% ahead of the 9600pro, in doom 3 the 9800pro is near 50% faster than the 9600pro. the whole thing just feels weird.
enigma Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI'm surprised that Anand mentioned nothing about the comparisons between 4x2 and 8x1 pipelines? Does he even know that MS is working to included paired textures with simutainious wait states for the nV arcitexture? You see the DX9 SDK was developed thinking only one path and since each texture has a defined FIFO during the pass the second pipe in the nV is dormant until the first pipe FIFO operation is complete, with paired textures in the pipe using syncronus wait states this 'problem' will be greatly relieved. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkits fake.... HL2 test are not ready today , great fake Anandtech :) Reply
rogerw99 - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#28
Ooo Ooo Ooo... I know the answer to that one.
It was Mrs. White, but it wasn't with the gun, it was the lead pipe. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkATI The Way It Should Be Played Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkQuote: 'So why is it that in the age of incredibly fast, absurdly powerful DirectX 9 hardware do we find it necessary to bicker about everything but the hardware? Because, for the most part, we've had absolutely nothing better to do with this hardware.'
Don't we? Wrong!
;) Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkone thing that i think is kinda interesting. check out this benchmark hardocp did - fx5900 ultra vs. radeon 9800 pro in doom 3 (with help from id software).
after reading this, read carmack's Jan 03 .plan, where he states that under the default openGL codepath, the fx architecture is about half as fast as the r300 - something that is pretty much resembled in the hl2 benchmarks. furthermore he states that using the default path the r300 is clearly superior (+100%), but when converting to vendor-specific codepaths, the fx series is the clear winner.
conclusions? none, but some possibilities
.) ati is better in directx, nvidia in opengl
.) id can actually code, valve cannot
.) and your usual conspiracy theories, feel free to use one you specifically like
bottom line. neither ati nor nvidia cards are the "right ones" at the moment, wait for the next generation of video cards and upgrade THEN.
enigma Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI'm so glad i converted to Ati, i have never regret it & now it feels even better. Ati rules Reply
notoriousformula - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linki'm sure Nvidia will strike back.. prolly with DOOM III..well till then i'll enjoy my little army of ATI cards: ATI 9800NP>PRO, ATI 9700, ATI 9600PRO :P..long live ATI!!! :D Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkAnand should have benchmarked on a more widely used computer like a 2400 or 2500+ AMD. Who here has the money to buy a p4 3Gb 8000mhz FSB cpu? Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link==="full 32-bit would be required" not 24-bit. So that leaves all ATI cards out in the cold.===
By the time full 32-bit becomes standard (probably with DX10 in 2-3 years) there will be NEW cards that make current cards look like sh!t. ATi will have DX10 cards for under $100, same as nVidia and their 5200. People have been upgrading their PC's for new games for YEARS! Only an [nv]IDIOT would attempt to use an old card for new games and software (TNT2 for Doom3? NOT!). Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkFunny that you guys think nVidia will be still "plugging along" with the GFFX if the DX spec changes to 32bit... you _do_ know what happens to the GFFX when it's forced to run 32bit prcession don't you? You'd get faster framerates by drawing each frame by hand on your monitor with a sharpie. Reply
Pete - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#23, the second quote in the first post here may be of interest: http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7839... Note the last sentence, which I surrounded by ***'s.
"nVidia has released the response as seen in the link. Particularly interesting, however, is this part of the e-mail sent to certain nVidia employees ( this was not posted at the given link ):
'We have been working very closely with Valve on the development of Half Life 2 and tuning for NVIDIA GPU's. And until a week ago had been in close contact with their technical team. It appears that, in preparation for ATI's Shader Days conference, they have misinterpreted bugs associated with a beta version of our release 50 driver.
You also may have heard that Valve has closed a multi-million dollar marketing deal with ATI. Valve invited us to bid on an exclusive marketing arrangement but we felt the price tag was far too high. We elected not to participate. ***We have no evidence or reason to believe that Valve's presentation yesterday was influenced by their marketing relationship with ATI.***'"
If this document is indeed real, nV themselves told their own employees Gabe's presentation wasn't skewed by Valve's marketing relationship with ATi. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkLink please #38 Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkLOL! 19, I saw that too. Looks like I'll be replacing my nVidia 'the way it's meant to be played in DX8 because our DX9 runs like ass, and we still sell it for $500+ to uninformed customers' card with an ATi Radeon. Thanks for the review Anand; it will be interesting to see the AA/AF benchmarks, but I have a pretty good idea of who will win those as well. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link>>>>>>>ANYONE ELSE CATCH THE FOLLOWING IN THE ARTICLE<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
""One thing that is also worth noting is that the shader-specific workarounds for NVIDIA that were implemented by Valve, will not immediately translate to all other games that are based off of Half-Life 2's Source engine. Remember that these restructured shaders are specific to the shaders used in Half-Life 2, which won't necessarily be the shaders used in a different game based off of the same engine.""
So I guess the nvidia fan boys won't be able to run their $500 POS cards with Counterstrike 2 since it will probably be based on the HL2 engine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkValve specifically said "full 32-bit would be required" not 24-bit. So that leaves all ATI cards out in the cold. Reply
Pete - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#23, I believe you're inferring far too much from ATi's HL2 bundling. Check TechReport's article on Gabe's presentation, in which Gabe is noted as saying Valve chose ATi (in the bidding war to bundle HL2) because their cards quite obviously performed so much better (and look better doing it--keep in mind, as Anand said, all those nVidia mixed modes look worse than pure DX9).
In short, Valve doesn't need to do much to please others, as they're the one being chased for the potentially huge-selling Half-Life 2. Everyone will be sucking up to them, not the other way around. And it wouldn't do for Valve to offer nV the bundle exclusive, have consumers expect brilliant performance from the bundled FX cards, and get 12fps in DX9 on their DX9 FX card or 30fps on their $400+ 5900U. That would result in a lot of angry customers for Valve, which is a decidedly bad business move.
People will buy HL2 regardless. Valve's bundling of HL2 with new cards is just an extra source of income for them, and not vital to the success of HL2 in any way. Bundling HL2 will be a big coup for an IHV like ATi, which requires boundary-pushing games like HL2 to drive hardware sales. Think of the relationship in this way: it's not that ATi won the bidding war to bundle HL2, but that Valve *allowed* ATi to win. Valve was going to get beaucoup bucks for marketing tie-ins with HL2 either way, so it's in their best interests to find sponsorships that present HL2 in the best light (thus apparently HL2 will be bundled with ATi DX9 cards, not their DX8 ones).
You should read page 3 of Anand's article more closely, IMO. Valve coded not to a specific hardware standard, but to the DX9 standard. ATi cards run standard DX9 code much better than nV. Valve had to work extra hard to try to find custom paths to allow for the FX's weaknesses, but even that doesn't bring nV even with ATi in terms of performance. So ATi's current DX9 line-up is the poster-child for HL2 almost by default.
We'll see what the Det50's do for nV's scores and IQ soon enough, and that should indicate whether Gabe was being mean or just frank. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#33 To be pedantic, the spec for DX9 24bit minimum, it has never been said by Microsoft that it was 24bit and nothing else, 24bit is just a minimum.
Just as 640x480 is a minimum. That doesn't make 1024x768 non standard.
But considering you are right, and 24 bit is a rock solid standard, doesn't that mean that Valve in the future will violate the DX9 spec in your eyes? Does that not mean that ATI cards will be left high and dry, in the future? Afterall, there will be no optimizations allowed/able?
32bit is the future, according to Valve after all.
Nvidia may suck at doing it, but at least they can do it.
XPgeek - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkedit, post #32-
should read, "my ATi is so faster than YOUR nVidia"
dvinnen - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#31: I know what I said. DX9 dosen't require 32 bit. It's not in the spec so you couldn't write shader that uses more than 24bit percision. Reply
XPgeek - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkWell #26, if the next gen of games do need 32 bit precision, then the tides will once again be turned. and all these "my ATi is so faster than for nVidia" will have to just suck it up and buy another new card, whereas the GFFX's will still be plugging along. by then, who knows, maybe DX10 will support 32 bit precision on the nVidia cards better...
btw, im still loading down my GF3 Ti500. so regardless, i will have crappy perf. but i also buy cards from the company i like, that being Gainward/Cardex nVidia based boards. no ATi for me, also no Intel for me. Why? bcuz its my choice. so it may be slower, whoopty-doo!
for all i know, HL2 could run for crap on AMD CPUs as well. so i'll be in good shape then with my XP2400+ and GF3
sorry, i know my opinions dont matter, but i put em here anyhow.
buy what you like, dont just follow the herd... unless you like having your face in everyones ass. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#28 Not 24bit, 32 bit. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkYeah, like mentioned above, what about whether or not AA and AF were turned on in these tests? Do you talk about it somewhere in your article?
I can't believe it's not mentioned since this site was the one that make a detailed (and excellent) presentation of the differences b/w ati and nvdia's AA and AF back in the day.
Strange your benchmarks appear to be silent on the matter. I assume they were both turned off. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link>>thus need full 32-bit precision."<<
Huh? Wha?
This is an interesting can of worms. So in the future months time, if ATI stick to 24bit, or cannot develop 32 bit precision, the tables will have reversed on the current situation - but even moreso because there would not be a work around (Or optimization).
Will ATI users in the future accuse Valve of sleeping with Nvidia because their cards cannot shade with 32-bit precision?
Will Nvidia users claim that ATI users are "non-compliant with directX 9"? Will ATI users respond that 24bit precision is the only acceptable standard Direct 9 standard, and that Valve are traitors?
Will Microsoft actually force manufacturers to bloody well wait and force them to follow the standard.
And finally, who did shoot Colonel Mustard in the Dining Room?
Questions, Questions. Reply
dvinnen - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#26: It means it can't cheat and use 16 bit registries to do it and need a full 24bit. SO it would waste the rest of the registry Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#26 That was in reference to the fx cards. They can do 16 or 32 bit precision. Ati cards do 24 bit precision, which is the dx 9 standard.
24 bit is the dx 9 standard because it's "good enough." It's much faster than 32 bit, and much better looking then 16 bit. So 16 bit will wear out sooner. Of course, someday 24 bit won't be enough, either, but there's no way of knowing when that'll be. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkValve says no benchmarks on Athlon 64! :-/
"Valve was able to heavily increase the performance of the NVIDIA cards with the optimized path but Valve warns that such optimizations won't be possible in future titles, because future shaders will be more complex and will thus need full 32-bit precision."
The new ATI cards only have 24bit shaders!
So would that make ALL current ATI cards without any way to run future Valve titles?
Perhaps I do not understand the technology fully, can someone elaborate on this? Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI agree with #23 in terms of money making power the ATI/Valve combo is astounding. ATI's design is superior as we can see but the point is that ATI is going to get truckloads of money and recognition for this. Its a good day to have stock in ATI, lets all thank them for buying ArtX! Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI emailed gabe about my 9600 pro, but he didnt have to do all this just for me :D
I love it. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI perviously posted this in a wrong place so let me just shamelessly repost in here:
Let me just get my little disclaimer out, before I dive into being a devil's advocate - I own both 9800pro and fx5900nu and am not biased to neither, ATi or nVidia.
With that being said, let me take a shot at what Anand opted not to speculate about ant that is the question of ATi/Valve colaboration and their present and future relationship.
First of all, FX's architecture is obviously inferior to R3x0 in terms of native DX9 and tha is not going to be my focus. I would rather debate a little about the business/finacial side of ATi/Valve relationship. That's the area of my expertise and looking at this situation from afinacial angle might add another twist to this.
What got my attention are Gabe Newell presentations slides that have omitted small but significant things like "pro" behind r9600 and his statement of "optimiztions going too far" without actually going into specifics, other than new detonators don't render fog. Those are small but significant details that add a little oil on a very hot issue of "cheating" in regards to nVidia's "optimizations". But I sopke of inancial side of things, so let me get back to it. After clearly stating how superior ATi's harware is to FX, stating how much effort they have invested to make the game work on FX (which is absolutely commendable) I can not help but notice that all this perfectly leads into the next great thing. A new line of ATi cards will be bundeled with ATi cards (or vice versa), and ATi is just getting ready to offer a value DX9 line. Remember how it was the only area that they have not covered and nVidia was selling truckloads of FX5200 in the meantime. After they have demonstrated how poorly FX flagship performs, let alone the value parts, is't it a perfect lead into selling shiploads of those bundeled cards(games). Add to that Gabe's shooting down of any optimization efforts on nVidia's part (simply insinuate on "chaets") and things are slowly moving in the right direction. And to top it all off, Valve expilcitley said that future additions will not be done for DX8 or so called mixed class but exclusively DX9. What is Joe consumer to do than? The only logical thing - get him/herself one of those bundles.
That concludes my observations on this angle of this newly emerged attraction and I see only good things on the horizon for ATi stockholders.
Feel free to debate, disagree and criticize, but keep in mind that I am not defending or bashing anybody, just offering my opinion on the part I considered equally as interesting as hardware performance is. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkWow...I buy a new video card every 3 years or so..my last one was a GF2PRO....hehe...I'm so glad to have a 9800PRO right now.
Snif..I'm proud to be Canadian ;-) Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkHow come the 9600 pros hardly loses any performance going from 1024 to 1280? Shouldn't it be affected by only having 4 pipelines? Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkMUHAHAHA!!! Go the 9600pros, i'd like to bitch slap my friends for telling me the 9600's will not run half-life 2. I guess i can now purchase an All-In-Wonder 9600pro. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkMan, I burst into a coughing/laughing spree when I saw an add using nVidia's "The way it's meant to be played" slogan. Funny thing is, I first noticed the add on the page titled "What's Wrong with Nvidia?" Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkbooyah, i hope my ti4200 can hold me over at 800x600 until i can switch to ATI! big up canada Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkYou can bet your house nvidia's 50 drivers will get closer performance, but they're STILL thoroughly bitchslapped... Ppl will be buying R9x00's by the ton. Nvidia better watch out, or they'll go down like, whatwassitsname, 3dfx ? Reply
dvinnen - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkHehe, I concer. Seeing a 9500on there would of been nice. But I really want to see is some AF turned on. I can live with no AA (ok, 2x AA) but I'll be damn if AF isn't going to be on. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkAnand, you guys rock. It's because of your in depth reviews that I purchased the Radeon 9500 Pro. I noticed the oddity mentioned of the small performance gap between the 9700 Pro and the 9600 Pro at 1280x1024. I would really like to see how the 9500 Pro is affected by this (and all the other benchmarks). If you have a chance, could you run a comparison between the 9500 Pro and the 9600 Pro (I guess what I really want to know if my 9500 Pro is better than a 9600 Pro for this game).
The Internal Reply
Pete - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link(Whoops, that was me above (lucky #13)--entered the wrong p/w.) Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkAnand, when using the Print Article feature in Mozilla 1.4, I was shown only graphs from one map throughout. For instance, after clicking Print Article, all graphs were of the bug level. Hitting F5 showed them all to be of techdemo. In both cases, some graphs didn't correspond to your comments.
This may be b/c the article was just posted, but thought I'd give you a heads-up anyway.
Thanks for the interesting read, and hopefully we'll see screenshots of the differences between the DX8.0. 8.1, 8.2, NV3x, and DX9 modes soon (the only thing lacking from this article, IMO)! Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link.. goddammit, all the flashes are arranged improperly. (Techdemo on bugbait pages, city on techdemo...) FIX IT. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI was hoping anand would compair a 128mb 9800pro to a 256mb one, guess I'll still have to wait =( Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkHey Anand, you have a 9500 Pro lying around?
Eh, well, it doesn't need to be included anyway. We all know how it would do: 5% worse than the 9700 Pro. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - link#5 & #6 : +1
I ll keep my G4 Ti 4200@300/600.
I m sure HL² will still rocks in DX 8.1 Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkWhere are the numbers with AA/AF enabled? I know the article intimates that there's a negligible performance hit, but I'd still like to see the numbers. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkMan, the Ti series has been doing this for a while!
http://www.amdmb.com/article-display.php?ArticleID... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkI feel the same way about the GF4Ti series. Never did like the FXes much... Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkHahahahaha.
Go you Ti4600, GO! I BELIEVE IN THE Ti4600!
If all I am going to lose is a bit of image quality, then no great loss. At least it isn't back to 640x480!
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkWow 9800 pro barely edges out 9700 pro. 9600 pro seems to be the best deal if people are still waiting to upgrade.
Obviously Nvidia lost this round with nv30 and nv35. Reply
Anonymous User - Friday, September 12, 2003 - linkBig time...Nvidia = Bombaclaats Reply


text:
Topic: Not sure where to post? It's been over a year...
Hi Everyone,
I initially posted here back in Summer 2006.
So much has happened since that time, and I feel badly about this, but I have to admit I became one of those "if you don't look it in the face, it isn't there" sort of people. I became afraid to log onto this website, fearing I'd find only the bad stuff. I'm sorry for that.
I had RFA done on my liver in Dec 2006 and my surgeon felt he'd gotten it all. My Oncologist continued to diagnose me as CUP wtih a history of Breast Cancer even though my surgeon after the RFA was as certain as he could be, that my adenocarcinoma was CC.
After the RFA in Dec 2006, I continued on Gemzar chemo through June 2007. The RFA had gotten rid of all signs of tumors in my liver and they kept me on Gemzar in hopes of sidetracking any recurrance.
I had to stop the Gemzar in June 2007 however, because of the damage to my kidneys and blood. My albumin level was very low (they first diagnosed the swelling in my entire body as Lympedema. Thank goodness for a good Nephrologist who caught it!) and my platelets and WBC haven't been the same. They are still low.
Another side effect of the chemo and perhaps the CC is I now have Diabetes II and take daily insulin injections.
I wanted to go back on Gemzar or at least start on Xeloda, but my Onc was worried my body needed the break and of what going back on treatment would do.
CT and PET Scans had been clear for exactly a year.
This past December, there was a tiny little spot barely visible to the radiologist, which he thought was the neoplasm returned.
I followed up with my Surgeon doing a 4-Phase CT last week, and it's showing a 3cm area now near where the RFA was done.
My surgeon feels I should do another RFA.
The worst thing was hearing him say he "couldn't say if this would take over in two weeks time or not". Ouch!
The dull ache in my right side had returned a few months ago. But I guess I didn't want to admit to it.
So now I'm wondering.....
Is Gemzar still effective? Is there a newer chemo to try?
My surgeon still feels this is just in my liver and hasn't spread elsewhere just yet.
I have HMO insurance. They've been pretty willing up to this point to approve whatever my doctors recommend (although they wouldn't approve Oscilloplatin<sp?>). Can anyone tell me about their experience with their own HMO's and a diagnoses of CUP?
I wish my Oncologist and Surgeon could agree. Or maybe it's good they don't. I don't know.
I'm really confused at the moment.
I've seen for myself the power of the mind and how it can help when dealing with Cancer. But it gets pretty difficult to keep those positive thoughts at times.
I'm going to my first Cancer Support Group tomorrow. But I wonder about that. I only want to surround myself with positive energy, nothing negative. I feel so selfish, and for so many years...... that just isn't me.
And I'm angry too.
Sorry for being so long winded. But thanks to anyone reading this.
- Kel

subset: commoncrawl


text:
I'm excited to be able to announce four new licensees of the Adobe Reader Mobile 9 SDK: Neolux Corporation (Nuutbook), Netronix, Tianjin Jinke Electronics, and last but not least Amazon.
Amazon today announced their new large-screen Kindle DX, including that they have integrated PDF via Adobe's Reader Mobile technology, giving users instant access to millions of business and personal documents. The integration of PDF technology allows users to simply email PDF files to their Kindle email address or quickly move them to the device using a USB connection. The Adobe SDK also supports PDF reflow, so that text can automatically adapt to the screen size, allowing users to consume PDF documents with an enhanced reading experience.
The Adobe Reader Mobile SDK has previously been licensed by leading device makers worldwide including Bookeen, iRex Technologies, Lexcycle, Plastic Logic, Polymer Vision Ltd, SONY Electronics, Spring Design and others.
Adobe Reader Mobile SDK supports reflowable PDF technology and the EPUB file format, an open eBook standard with broad support from the publishing industry. The Adobe software engine also offers support for Adobe Content Server 4, Adobe's popular content protection technology that allows publishers to securely distribute eBooks and other digital publications..
I do want to clarify that Amazon's integration of the Adobe Reader Mobile SDK into the Amazon Kindle DX only includes PDF support, and not support for EPUB or Adobe Content Server 4 protected content. I'm encouraged that this is a first step by Amazon toward open file formats and interoperability, but it is just that: a first step. I find the new large-screen form factor attractive, but as a consumer, I don't like products that lock me in to a closed architecture. On that basis, I'm afraid I can't yet recommend the Kindle family, since the commercial eBook support is limited to Amazon's proprietary format and DRM, for which content can only be acquired from their online store. And, this content is not interoperable with any other reading systems. By contrast the Sony Reader product line offers complete compatibility with both PDF and EPUB, including unprotected and ACS4-protected publications that can be acquired from many different online retailers and libraries. And, this content can be transferred and used on PCs, with Adobe Digital Editions and Sony EBL software, as well as to other compatible devices that will be released soon by other Adobe partners. That's the open, interoperable ecosystem that Adobe and its partners are working to foster.
Amazon, Others License Adobe Reader Mobile SDK
I'm excited to be able to announce four new licensees of the Adobe Reader Mobile 9 SDK: Neolux Corporation (Nuutbook), Netronix, Tianjin Jinke Electronics, and last but not least Amazon.


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Cotton Tale Designs Nightingale 7 Piece Set
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SPRINGFIELD TOWNSHIP, Ohio (AP) -- Two cars collided head-on Saturday on a Cincinnati-area highway, killing two women.
Police in Springfield Township say they believe that Angela Travillian of Cincinnati went over a median around 3 a.m. and was driving west in the eastbound lanes of Ronald Reagan Highway near an interchange with Interstate 75.
Travillian's minivan van hit another minivan going the right way on the highway, killing both her and the other driver, identified as Angela Cox of Maineville.
The accident is under investigation.
The Cincinnati Enquirer reports that Travillian worked as a business and data news assistant at the newspaper.


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I can't believe it's Labor Day weekend. Where did summer go? I had all sorts of big plans for grilling and preserving and cooking up the flavors of our most bountiful season, but then poof, just like that it was gone. Not that I can complain too much: now it's time to think about braising, tailgating, and all my favorite recipes that come with the fall.
That's the beauty of this holy-crap-it's-amazing baked macaroni and cheese — each and every bite carries the deep, smoky flavors of the August grill, but it is rich and hearty enough to hold you over all fall and winter long. I've been mastering my mac and cheese recipe for years now, and to be honest, I didn't think it could be improved upon. One bite with my latest changes may have changed my mind!
This mac and cheese is easier than you could ever imagine, although it isn't really for the faint of heart. (I usually swear to myself I'll only make it once per year, but people request it so often and I can't seem to say no.) Three cheeses each contribute to its perfection: cheddar adds the sharpness we've come to expect, white American adds creaminess that no others can, and smoked Gouda provides a subtle smokiness throughout. Heavy cream ties the dish together, with a splash of liquid smoke to send all the flavors over the edge. And what good is a baked mac and cheese without a crunchy topping; panko crumbs and butter add the perfect final contrast.
Try my smoky mac and cheese recipe this holiday weekend and I promise you'll never go back to whatever version you were making before. You'll be thanking me come tailgate season, too. It has a guaranteed spot on my starting roster and surely yours as well.
Smoky Mac & Cheese
Active Time: 15 minutes
Total Time: 1 hour 20 minutes
Ease of preparation: Easy
12 ounces egg noodles
8 ounces smoked Gouda, shredded
4 ounces sharp Cheddar cheese, shredded
4 ounces (6 slices) white American cheese, torn into very small pieces
1 1/2 cups heavy cream
1/4 teaspoon liquid smoke (I used hickory flavored)
Kosher salt and white pepper, to taste
2 tablespoons butter
1/2 cup panko crumbs
Preheat oven to 350 degrees F.
Bring a large pot of water to boil and season generously with salt. Add the pasta and cook until al dente (just tender) according to package instructions. Drain in a colander without rinsing, and return pasta to the pot.
While the noodles are still warm, add the Gouda, cheddar, and American cheese and stir until the cheese starts to melt. Add the heavy cream and season generously with salt and pepper. Pour the noodle mixture into a greased 8- by 11-inch baking dish (or one of a similar size).
Melt the butter and toss with the panko crumbs, and sprinkle mixture over the top. Cover the dish with aluminum foil and bake for 30 minutes. Remove foil and cook uncovered for an additional 15 minutes. Finish off under the broiler if you want to brown the topping just a bit more. Remove macaroni and cheese from the oven and cool for 5 to 10 minutes before serving.
Yield: 6 to 8 servings
Nealey moved from Alabama to the West Coast to follow her dreams, only to realize once there how much she missed good ol' country cooking. So she took to the kitchen and began re-creating the dishes of her past, but this time without any help from a can. What started out as a hobby turned into an obsession, so she quit her day job to pursue cooking, and eating, fulltime. Dixie Caviar is where you can follow her pursuits of all things Southern.
More Southern Favorites From Nealey


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Chill out in style on the slopes
Published 12:20 pm, Thursday, December 22, 2011
There's a cool-factor in wearing baggy pants and bright colors on the mountain. It's likely because snowboard fashion is the street wear of winter sports.
Take the 2010 Winter Olympics. Redheaded champion Shaun White and the U.S. Olympic Snowboarding Team rocked the mountain with vintage-inspired flannel tops and denim-looking bottoms.
"Snowboarders and skiers get their roots in fashion from different places," said Jennifer Rudolph, spokeswoman with Colorado Ski Country USA, a trade association representing Colorado's 22 ski and snowboard resorts. "Snowboard trends tend to lean more on the urban look, while skiing follows the classic Nordic designs. It's not really a competition, just a different look."
According to Snow Sports Industries America, nearly 7 million snowboarders are hitting ski resorts across the country. They are typically younger and bring a street-inspired style (with origins from skateboarding to hip-hop music) to winter sports. Even fashion designers are hoping to capture their attention. Prada, Chanel and Versace have created snowboard gear or apparel.
Looking good on the mountain is part of the experience.
News Channel


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Captian Francesco Schettino arrives for his trial, in Grosseto, Italy, on Tuesday. The trial of the captain of the shipwrecked Costa Concordia cruise liner has begun in a theatre converted into a courtroom in Tuscany to accommodate all the survivors and relatives of the 32 victims, who want to see justice carried out for the 2012 tragedy. The sole defendant, Capt Schettino, made no comment to reporters as he arrived at court on charges of multiple manslaughter, abandoning ship and causing the shipwreck near the island of Giglio. Domenico Pepe, his lawyer, told reporters that the judge was postponing the hearing due to an eight-day nationwide lawyers' strike. Capt Schettino has denied wrongdoing
© The Financial Times Ltd 2016 FT and 'Financial Times' are trademarks of The Financial Times Ltd.


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Confessions of a Disinformation Agent: Introduction and Chapter I.
Hi everybody,
I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce to you a new series of articles being written by a fellow blogger. His name is Muertos and he's one of the most rational thinkers i have come across.
When you get a chance, click the link (below) to his blog and feed your brain some great information!
Mason I. Bilderberg
Posted on July 3, 2012 by muertos:
This story is going to be a history of my experiences with conspiracy theories, including the time when I used to believe them myself. I'll explain what got me into them, why they fascinated me, and eventually why I became a debunker. I have a very strange and complicated relationship with debunking. Sometimes I love it and look forward to it; at other times it's something I hate and want to be finished with forever. Therefore, this piece is a very personal journey.
Keep Reading: Confessions of a Disinformation Agent: Introduction and Chapter I. | Muertos's Blog.


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The nation's largest private health insurer is launching a plan to move away from the traditional fee-for-service system that many analysts say bears much of the blame for excessive medical spending.Under traditional fee-for-service plans, compensation for providers of medical care is based on individual services. The Concord Coalition and other advocates of health care reform have long argued that this creates powerful incentives to provide excessive and sometimes even harmful treatments rather than focusing on medical outcomes. And rising medical costs, coupled with an aging population, are a critical factor in the long-term structural deficits in the federal budget.UnitedHealth Group Inc. is introducing a plan that could tie some of the compensation for providers to goals such as avoiding hospital re-admissions and ensuring that patients receive certain screenings, according a Feb. 9 story in The Wall Street Journal. In some cases, failure to meet certain standards could result in lower payments.UnitedHealth began sending information about the changes to employers in late January. While the new plan appears to be particularly extensive, it comes as other insurance providers are also changing their reimbursement policies to focus on quality standards as well as promote more primary care. This is momentum in the right direction.
Insurer Shifts Focus to Health Care Quality
Blog Post


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Brickbuilders' Club, for Grades 3 to 5
Do you love LEGO®? Join others who do to create, learn, and share ideas. Members will have a chance to work individually and in teams to build creations.
Attendance is limited.** Sign up in the Cary Library Children's Room in person or by phone beginning Sept. 16. Sign up for one group only.
Thursday, November 21, 2013 - 2:00pm to 4:00pm
Large Meeting Room - Lower Level


text:
Today's Devotional
Like YourselfWhat steps can you take to share life with people who in the past you might have avoided?
Let's Make ItFacebook official!
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text:
As a major food person and a seriously minor football fan, I get a bit more excited about the, er, touchdowns on the buffet table than I do about the ones on the field. So I can't offer any insight on which team will come away victorious, but I do know this: Salty-on-the-outside, soft-on-the-inside pretzels are always a game-day winner.
This year, I'm making my own, with mix-ins inspired by both Super Bowl opponents: The Green Bay Packers and the Pittsburgh Steelers. Here's how you do it.
Homemade Pretzels 101
If you've never made homemade pretzels, it takes a little time, but it's worth it — those frozen pretzels have nothing on these fresh-baked gems. I used Bobby Flay's basic recipe, with a few twists along the way.
Basic Soft Pretzel Dough
Adapted from Bobby Flay
Makes 8 large soft pretzels, 16 mini pretzels or 32 soft pretzels sticks
1 1/2 cups warm water
2 tablespoons light brown muscovado sugar
1 package active dry yeast (2 1/2 teaspoons bulk yeast)
3 ounces unsalted butter, melted
2 1/2 teaspoons kosher salt
4 1/2 to 5 cups all-purpose flour
Vegetable oil
3 quarts water
1/4 cup baking soda
2 whole eggs, beaten with 1 tablespoon cold water
Coarse sea salt (I used coarse kosher salt)
Line 2 half sheet pans with parchment paper and spray liberally with vegetable spray. Combine the water, sugar, yeast, and butter in the bowl of a stand mixer and mix with the dough hook until combined. Let sit for 5 minutes.
Add the salt and flour and mix on low speed until combined. Increase the speed to medium and continue kneading until the dough is smooth and begins to pull away from the side of the bowl, about 3 to 4 minutes. If the dough appears too wet, add additional flour, 1 tablespoon at a time. Remove the dough from the bowl, place on a flat surface and knead into a ball with your hands.
Oil a bowl with vegetable oil, add the dough and turn to coat with the oil. Cover with a clean towel or plastic wrap and place in a warm spot until the dough doubles in size, about 1 hour.
Preheat the oven to 425 degrees F. Now, you're ready for mix-ins.
The Mix-Ins
If you want to mix anything into the pretzel dough, now's the time. Try the Packers or Steelers-inspired options below, or dream up your own mix of meat, cheese, herbs and veggies. To mix something in, roll out half of the dough, then pile half of the ingredients in the center and fold over the top portion of dough.
Pile more toppings over the center and fold over the final piece over the filling. Then, roll the dough into an 11 by 14 rectangle to incorporate the toppings. (See the whole step-by-step process here.)
Cut dough into strips: 4 for large pretzels and 8 for small pretzel twists. For pretzel sticks, cut them in half crossways to make 16 strips.
Shape the pretzels on a baking sheet. Grab the ends of the rope and cross the left end over the right end. Cross the left end over the right end again to make a twist in the middle.
Bring the water to a boil in a small roasting pan over high heat and add the baking soda. Boil the pretzels in the water solution, 2 at a time for 30 seconds, splashing the tops with the warmed water using a spoon. Remove with a large flat slotted spatula or a spider.
Place pretzels on the greased baking sheet (crucial! I forgot on my first batch, and they stuck to the paper.) Brush the tops with the egg wash and season liberally with the salt. Place into the oven and bake until golden brown.
Steelers Variation: Pastrami-Cheese Pretzels With Spicy Ketchup
Both the country's first pretzel house and today's biggest pretzel producer hail from Pennsylvania, so Steelers fans are no stranger to these soft, chewy snacks. But there's something that's even bigger than the pretzel (but probably not the Steelers) in Pittsburgh: The French fry and coleslaw-topped Primanti brothers sandwich.
This Pittsburgh original starts with soft Italian bread, then on goes your favorite meat, Provolone cheese, slaw, fresh French fries, lettuce, tomato and more meat. I channeled the main elements of this favorite sandwich — meat, cheese and fried potatoes — into a game-day pretzel. Serve it with spicy ketchup as an homage to Pittsburg-based Heinz, or serve with coleslaw.
Makes 16 pretzel sticks
1/2 recipe Basic Pretzel Dough
1/2 cup cooked home fries (homemade or frozen)
1/2 cup cubed pastrami (or your favorite deli meat)
1/2 cup cubed provolone cheese
1/2 cup ketchup
1 teaspoon cider vinegar
1/2 to 1 teaspoon chili sauce, or to taste
Roll the dough into a rectangle. Using the mix-in technique above, spread half of the toppings in the center, fold, spread the remaining toppings and fold again. Roll into a 11 x 14 square, cut into 8 even strips, then cut in half lengthwise to make 16 strips. Make 16 pretzel sticks, dip in water bath and bake until brown, about 10 minutes. Mix ketchup, vinegar and hot sauce together and serve for dipping.
Packers Variation: Bratwurst-Onion Pretzels With Beer-Cheddar Dip
Wisconsin is home to three important food groups: beer, cheese and bratwurst. Early German immigrants were drawn there because the cold weather and water access provided the ideal beer-brewing environment, and it's been a beer hub ever since. The abundance of beer spawned another favorite dish: beer-cheese soup. I combined all these classics for game-day flavor in every bite.
Makes 8 mini pretzel twists
1/2 recipe Basic Pretzel Dough
1/2 cup diced bratwurst
1/2 cup caramelized onions
Roll the dough into a rectangle. Using the mix-in technique above, spread half of the toppings in the center, fold, spread the remaining toppings and fold again. Roll into a 11 x 14 square, cut into 8 even strips. Twist into 8 mini pretzels, dip in water bath, brush on egg wash, salt and bake until golden brown, about 12 to 14 minutes. Serve with Beer-Cheddar Dip, recipe follows.
Beer-Cheddar Dip
Adapted from Sensory Overload
Makes about 1/2 cup dip
1/4 cup Wisconsin stout or porter beer
1/4 cup deli mustard
2 tablespoons unsalted butter
1/2 teaspoon chili sauce, or to taste
4 ounces Wisconsin sharp cheddar cheese, grated
Combine the beer, mustard, butter, and cayenne pepper in a saucepan on medium heat until well mixed. Gradually add the cheese, whisking until the texture is smooth. Serve warm.
What's on your Super Sunday menu? Get lots more Game-Day recipes from our Big-Game Bash Feature.


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Bryce Harper will miss Saturday and likely Sunday's game as well because of a bruised left knee.
Elvis Andrus went 3-for-5 with a solo home run, four RBI, three runs scored and a stolen base as the Rangers pounded the Tigers 12-6 on Wednesday.
The Dodgers said after Wednesday's game that Yu Darvish left as a precaution because of back tightness.
Anthony Rizzo belted a grand slam against the Reds and finished the day 2-for-4 with two runs and four RBI in a 7-6 win on Wednesday.
Charlie Morton punched out nine batters while allowing one run in 6 1/3 innings to earn a 9-5 victory over the Diamondbacks on Wednesday.
Marcus Stroman struck out seven batters and yielded just two runs in 6 1/3 innings to earn a 3-2 victory over the Rays on Wednesday.
Wednesday's game between the Indians and Twins has been postponed due to rain.
Wil Myers racked up three steals Wednesday in the Padres' win over the Phillies.
Clayton Richard twirled a three-hit shutout Wednesday in a win over the Phillies.
Edwin Diaz collapsed Wednesday against the Orioles, yielding two runs and three walks before being lifted with two outs in the ninth inning.
Tim Beckham homered as part of a two-hit effort Wednesday in the Orioles' loss to Seattle.
Braves manager Brian Snitker said Matt Kemp (hamstring) will be the starter in left field when he returns from the disabled list.


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Diamond Tech is a WHOLESALE ONLY manufacturer of craft and art glass tools and supplies. We take pride in our
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text: Whether you're hosting a viewing party or just watching the broadcast in your pajamas, this year's Academy Awards deserve a properly themed menu. We took inspiration from the Best Picture Nominations to come up with some ideas for what to serve. Here are our top picks for an Oscars-Inspired Menu:


text:
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When it comes to work, don't trust your boots to just any brand. These pull-on, steel toe work boots by Justin have what it takes to keep you comfortable and protected on even the longest work days. These 10" work boots are made with premium leathers that will keep your feet protected from the top. The polyurethane outsole is oil and heat resistant for ultimate safety on the job. At the heart of the Double Comfort® system is the revolutionary new orthotic insert working directly with the Orthotic Texon®/Poron® Insole, providing unbeatable stability and lasting comfort. These boots are also ASTM Electrical Hazard Rated to provide protection from open electrical currents up to 600 volts. From top to bottom, these are work boots that work.
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Within J-MAX, Stampede, Hybred, Work-Tek, Double Comfort, Worker II and other boot categories, Justin Workboots offers comfort and safety solutions for brutal weather and severe working conditions, including: composite safety toes that meet or exceed ASTM F2413-11 standards for impact, compression, and Electrical Hazard at a fraction of the weight; MetGuard with Poron XRD impact-absorbing technology that meets or exceeds ASTM F2413 standards for impact protection; Achilles Relief System to eliminate weak spots in foot comfort by using stretchable material, high-density foam, and moisture-wicking anti-microbial lining; and well-insulated and waterproof exterior combinations.


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Our unique lacquers contain China Clay as a nail hardener, the same material that gives porcelain its shiny finish. These glossy lacquers work in perfect cohesion with our professional nail treatments for lasting strength, durability and overall gorgeous nails.
For stronger, longer nails, try our Nail Strengthener and Growth Formula. Softer cuticles check out our Orange Cuticle Oil. Prevent chipping with our No Chip Top Coat is for you. For a flawless application every time, use our quality formulas with our optimized 440strand brush. Nothing says the perfect nail like China Glaze.
*All China Glaze colours are free of DBP, Toulene and added Formaldehyde.


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To the right of my "Log In" button on my Log In Form, I want to add the hyperlink (Forgot Password??)
Can an anchor element  stand on its own, or should it be wrapped in a block element like a
??
As usual the answer is "it depends". An Anchor is an inline element and should not be siblings with block elements.BAD:

some txt
anchor
GOOD :
 some txtanchor

However, exceptions are made if you intend to give the anchor element position:absolute.
Hope that clarifies things.
As above, better to wrap it in a block element. It's also better not to have an inline element sitting next to a block element. But an inline element sitting next to another inline element is fine ... and in this case, the  may be sitting alongside something like an <input>, which should be OK. So the context / code needs to be seen.
Here is a larger snippet...
<form id="login" action="" method="post">

E-mail:
<input id="email" name="email" type="text" maxlength="80" />

Password:
<input id="pass" name="pass" type="password" maxlength="40" />

<input type="submit" name="logIn" class="button" value="Log In" />

(Forgot Password??)
And for my "Log In" button I have...
display: inline-block;
width: auto;
overflow: visible;
margin: 2em 0 1em 0;
padding: 0em 2em 0 2em; /**/
So what do you think now??
To be honest, that looks OK to me.
(I would just get rid of one of the question marks, though, as multiple question marks etc. is not proper grammar. Know what I mean?!?!????? :lol: )
I like to be different and EMPHASIZE things!!
What was it you were saying about a professional look? :shifty:
One question mark, Ralph!
MYTH! It's not in the specifications, and I've never once had it cause problems in one of my layouts. I've seen some people around here who should know better propagating that myth too... It's like the nonsense of wrapping a IMG tag in a lone P with nothing else -- no point to it.
Also, be clear if you mean LEVEL or DISPLAY, since the default display for a level may be the same, they don't mean the same thing.
Not that it matters in DD's case -- all her elements are inline-level, so that's rock and roll.
Well, I have, and I'm pretty sure Paul O'B has. For example, I've had images sent to display: block up against divs and had really buggy results with it (sometimes displays one way, sometimes another), so I always wrap them in a div or something. I find that totally reliable.
Really? I'd lovet osee some examples of it.
I'm not doubting you or calling you a liar, I'm sure there might be some oddball case, but I've never heard of that happening, or seen it.
That's where I've been at with it since I first heard of it years ago... as I've never seen a working testcase.
... or should that be failing testcase?
I've heard of it, NEVER seen it. Might be something as silly as another thing legacy IE screws up without haslayout or some similar oddity that's not really a problem with the inline-level tag itself, so much as it is a certain family of browsers not reporting values right.
I had an example something like this once (not sure if it was exactly the same) but despite being display: block, Firefox and at least one other browser kept showing the image hard up against the text on first page view, and then on refresh the gap would appear. Anyhow, this was one of a few experiences that put me off putting inlines beside blocks.
This is an English forum, dude. :lol:[/ot]
That demo is funny, might explain why I don't see the error in my layouts too...
I rarely if ever use margins facing margins... 'colllapse' is too inconsistent and too much of a pain in the backside cross-browser.
Yeah, I don't know if the original example had margins on both sides like that. I just remember the two items collapsing together and jumping back into place on refresh. I can't replicate in now, though. Maybe browsers have fixed whatever was causing it.
With Mozilla and Chrome's current "new version every five minutes" it wouldn't surprise me... unable to recreate in 3.5x though, so maybe it's a FF2 bug?
After all, FF 2 and earlier were buggier than IE5 on a LOT of things... though most of the bugs weren't related to rendering; while most of the rendering bugs/implementation gaps are still unfixed and teenagers now.
I can never bring myself to fix my typos. They just happen too often. It's readable and that's all that matters
MYTH! It's not in the specifications, and I've never once had it cause problems in one of my layouts.
Ok I followed up on this. I located an old macbook that still has FF2! and Saf3.0 and followed up on ralphs link. No problems at all, not even with facing margins.
I like the idea of less tags.. but I am still wondering structurally, ( which is essentially the OP) DO INLINE ELEMENTS stand alone semantically? In the case of IMGs this may seem more clear cut, but anchors? or lets say you had a heading, with a long emphasized non-paragraph pseudo branding statement after it. Play along with me on this: if the situation required motto/mission statement is to have EM semantically... shouldn't it still.. be wrapped in a block element ( a DIV, if not a P?... in some cases I see this a BLOCKQUOTE even). The point is, regardless of rendering, an EM floating next to an H1 seems odd?? As would an A outside a UL or a P??? And thus my reasoning as to this being more than a mere pet peeve.

MyCoWe intend to make money

The purpose of a corporation is not to make a product or provide a service for customers; it is to make money for stakeholders.
Maybe in the original exxample where there were problems the image was not set to display: block. I have a feeling that was the problem. Still, an inline element is not really a block element even if set to display: block. The fact that such fakery is needed makes me wonder if it's a good idea.
I wouldn't call it a myth, I'd be more inclined to call it Rare Problem. From what I remember, problems seem to usually happen on very busy pages with a LOT of content for the browser to parse through. With the browser computing very quickly sometimes a lone inline-element (between blocks) lower down in the page source can get misplaced. It's not easy to reproduce the problem in a simple stand alone test case.
Your right, it's not in the specs, in regards to being illegal. But here's what is in the specs which I would say is VERY closely related.[URL="http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#anonymous-block-level"]220.127.116.11 Anonymous block boxes
In a document like this:
Some text

More text
(and assuming the DIV and the P both have 'display: block'), the DIV appears to have both inline content and block content. To make it easier to define the formatting, we assume that there is an anonymous block box around "Some text".
In other words: if a block container box (such as that generated for the DIV above) has a block-level box inside it (such as the P above), then we force it to have only block-level boxes inside it.
You see, the browser is being forced to generate an anonymous block box around any inline elements that are siblings of a block within a block. If you don't wrap your inline elements in a block yourself then you are depending on the browser to figure it out on it's own. That inline content is going to get a block box around it one way or another. By doing it yourself you take the burden off the browser and allow it to parse through the page without having to stop for a millisecond and make a block box.
As I mentioned above, we usually see the problem crop up on busy pages. When people post threads about it, this comment is almost always found in their post... "When I refresh the page everything is fine".
I'm guessing that's because the browser got the anonymous block box in place the second time around.


text:
The past few days have really been a whirlwind of social media! I was in Houston for the Latinos in Social Media National Conference and it was amazing!! I know I've said thank you a million times, but thank you for all of your votes and support!! I did receive the Best Lifestyle Blogger award and I wanted to share my outfit from that night.
EVANS sent me the Swan by Clements Ribeiro Lace Grace dress and it was so chic! It has this whole "Adele" vibe to it. I can totally see her rocking it! I'm not normally a fan of all lace, but the second I put this on, that was out the window. This would make a great holiday dress. I especially loved the small details like the exposed zipper in the back and the shimmer in the top half of the dress. And everyone else loved it too! I got a lot of compliments on it.
A little part of me wishes the skirt was a little more fitted on me, I think it would be on those with hourglass shapes. Besides that, I adored it! My jewelry is from Macy's and the shoes are Guess. I'm wearing makeup from Estee Lauder's Pure Color Collection. I'm glad I chose this dress for that night, it was a night I will never forget!!
Disclosure: This item was compliments of EVANS and was provided for review purposes only. All opinions expressed in this post are 100% mine.


text:
DISABLED people fear being forced out of their own homes and into residential care centres due to controversial council spending cuts.
About 2,000 residents with severe disabilities get around-the-clock care in Worcestershire, which includes flexible visits at home and 24-hour support for tasks such as dressing, washing and feeding.
But the county council says the costs are too high and moving severely disabled people into care homes will save it £500,000 over the next four years.
From now on, all new service users will be offered alternatives such as living in care homes or 'cluster' flats, with on-call nursing.
The changes will mean that anyone currently receiving the package will be faced with the agonising decision to go into a home if their needs "escalate" and are deemed to be too expensive to maintain at home.
At-home support will be generally avoided unless families can contribute to the costs, or in cases where it is cheaper than a residential care home.
The change was voted through by the county council's Conservative cabinet yesterday, despite bitter opposition from campaigners.
At the start of the meeting Jacky Payton, co-chair of the Worcestershire Coalition for Independent Living, said: "This has the potential to restrict choice and goes against the ethos of independent living.
"It is difficult to see how it will not force people into residential care."
The council's community care package has cost taxpayers £11 million in the last six years alone. It also says 100 current users' needs cost more than £52,000-a-year each, with one disabled person's bill spiralling to £232,000 in just 12 months.
At-home support is about three times more expensive than placing people into care homes. Worcestershire County Council's cabinet member for adult social care, Councillor Philip Gretton, said: "The approach will be to compare, on an individual basis, the costs of meeting their needs in a residential setting against the costs of meeting it in the community.
"This will allow a discussion about how their needs could be met in the community in a way that is comparable.
"We won't 'force' people into care homes," he said.
"People coming into the service with progressively higher needs are not being matched by those who leave it, because happily, people are now living longer."
Collette Jackson knows all about the daily problems people with disabilities face.
The 47-year-old, of Himbleton Road, St John's, Worcester, was born with cerebral palsy and also suffers arthritis and spinal problems.
As a recipient of the council's community care package, she gets help with routine tasks like getting dressed for the day ahead.
"I'm livid," she said. "My fiance Anthony does the bulk of my support but I also rely on these carers to help me.
"We should be going forwards in society, not backwards. My worry is what could happen if my needs escalate. If I'm forced to go into a home I won't be independent, will I? Now, I can go outside when I want to go out. I can do what I want, I've got freedom.
"This could affect my relationship, and my life. So many disabled people are worried."


text:
>Off the Beaten Path>I have a feeling RA might be getting more members from RW
Refurbished Hip
I only created a RA account yesterday. But I was so impressed by the 'Damn Spam Bots' thread that I immediately made my $10 donation.
I only created a RA account yesterday. But I was so impressed by the 'Damn Spam Bots' thread that I immediately made my $10 donation.
Huh, I have a blog?
Is there a trail/ultra group around here?
Is there a trail/ultra group around here?
Both. The ultra forum is, presently, more active. The trail runners forum could always use fresh blood.
"When a person trains once, nothing happens. When a person forces himself to do a thing a hundred or a thousand times, then he certainly has developed in more ways than physical. Is it raining? That doesn't matter. Am I tired? That doesn't matter, either. Then willpower will be no problem." Emil Zatopek
Space Cadet
SRL would know, but you might check out the groups section.
Whoops, I was too slow!
Both. The ultra forum is, presently, more active. The trail runners forum could always use fresh blood.
Thank you! It's the opposite over at RWOL.
Trail Dog
I mean, um, hello kind stranger who looks vaguely familiar with a dog that resembles my own!
Thank you! It's the opposite over at RWOL.
That's because when RW "upgraded" about 6 yr ago, they split the trail and ultra forum into 2 forums. The thread history - and many of the trail and ultra peeps - went to the trail forum. I believe that's also when RW lost the ability to quote part (rather than the whole thing) of a prior post and also when they lost the multi-branch thread ability.
That's how we used to tell who was new to the forums - the new ultra folks posted in the ultra forum and those who had been around just posted in trail forum - regardless of distance. Trail folks aren't very good about telling mileage.
I think the Training forum was split into Training and 5k, 10, HM (or whatever it's called) - also resulting in confusion as to where to post.
That's when the runandgo forum was created.
It seems like it's about every 2 or 3 yrs, RW goes through some sort of regeneration. It's an interesting business model they have.
Hey, all. I can't load RW forums at all this morning. I'm about ready to give up over there, except maybe for the trail forum and winter running contest. Although if the other trailers come over here...
Hello everyone!
My name is Eric and I'm the creator of RunningAHEAD.com. I don't usually participate in non-administrative threads but I'm popping in to welcome all the RWOL users to RunningAHEAD. I prefer to be hands off so that you can express your opinions freely. These forums have moderators but they are only allowed to censor the occasional spam. I do expect everyone to treat each other with civility and thus far, the self governance kept RA's forums a welcoming place for everyone.
Some RWOL users are reluctant to give RA a try because its forums are not as active. The greatness of an online community is not the software it uses but rather the conversations of its users. RA can become a more vibrant place if we all join in the conversations.
Rodale is a corporation, with many shareholders that demand revenue and profits. My guess is Training Peaks approached Rodale with the offer that if RW transfers all of its users to TP, TP will give Rodale a percentage of the premium membership fees it collected from RW's users. Rodale agreed because it is an additional revenue that it did not have with the "classic" free training log. I can't tell you the short sightedness of this decision.
Unlike RWOL, my primary focus is on you, the users. Don't get me wrong, I like to be rich, but I always believed that we can form a symbiotic relationship where everyone benefits. My success depends entirely on your satisfaction of RA, where as it's just a job to the RW folks that read and maybe respond to your comments.
Anyway, that is my sell. If you become an RA user, I will take good care of you. Have a happy Thanksgiving everyone in the US and a great day to everyone else!
Nice one Eric, I joined 5 years ago as a result of the Cool Running fiasco, your efforts are appreciated by your disciples on this side of the pond and if you ever visit the UK there is a beer behind the bar for you.
Old age is when you move from illegal to prescribed drugs.
Not a dude
not lazy, just tired
Hey, welcome Flippy!
Not if it makes sense.


text:
On Wednesday, Feb. 12, at the Creekstone Inn, the Art Alliance of Idyllwild hosted the unveiling of 19 banners representing local organizations that included the American Legion, Art Alliance of Idyllwild (2 banners) Jazz in the Pines, Idyllwild International Film Festival, Idyllwild Area Historical Society, Idyllwild Lilac Festival, Idyllwild Master Chorale, Olde English Theatre Group, Stratford Players, Animal Rescue Friends, Lemon Lily Festival, Mountain Quilters of Idyllwild, Soroptimist International of Idyllwild, Idyllwild Earth Fair, Nature Center, Idyllwild Tree Lighting, Idyllwild Garden Club and ISIS Theatre Company. The Banner Committee includes Ross Clunis, Darcy Gerdes and Shanna Robb. "Considered the first collaboration of this magnitude, the AAI is thrilled to be working side-by-side with the many organizations," said Robb.
The colorful, eye-catching banners will be placed throughout the town at a variety of locations and will rotate throughout the year based on a schedule developed by the Banner Committee. The banner hanging is anticipated for the last week of February or first week of March.