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|January 29, 1999
Volume 1, Issue 5
|Midwifery Today E-News
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In This Week's Issue:
1) Quote of the Week
1) Quote of the Week:
"Most ignorance is vincible ignorance. We don't know because we don't want to know."
- Aldous Huxley
2) Checking In
The response so far to Midwifery Today's E-News has been heartening. We're on our way to building a midwifery cybercommunity where everyone is warmly welcomed and supported. We envision a time when we can quickly and easily share information, wisdom, techniques, stories, insights, research, herbal lore and more, almost as if we were sitting in a big circle together, talking and laughing and hugging. But this way the room that holds the circle is limitlessly big, and grows as the circle grows. Imagine talking with thousands of practitioners at one time; imagine adding to your store of knowledge with just a few keyboard strokes; imagine strengthening midwifery so the safety net for new mothers, families and babies is never again threatened or broken. And imagine a time when you need to have a group of wise midwives at your fingertips--it's possible!
Thank you for joining us. Help us make the circle larger and wider by passing this newsletter on to your friends and colleagues--everyone is welcome! And please feel free to write, ask questions, answer questions, share, share, share--it's what will keep us united. Send your submissions to firstname.lastname@example.com.
- Cher Mikkola, managing editor
3) The Art of Midwifery
Because the laboring woman is so sensitive and in such an altered state, the first physical contact between mother and midwife is very important. If the midwife is too abrupt, forceful or hasty, the mother may recoil, withdraw or push away the helping hand. On the other hand, there are women who don't want to be touched at all and the midwife should be aware of this. Touch can be a distraction for them.
The first touch should be light, gentle and done with loving and positive thoughts. The hand slowly merges with the woman's body. I was taught to begin massages by touching one of the body's poles, such as the feet or the head. If the laboring woman is tensed up, slowly move the hands to the tight areas and apply gentle pressure. These areas can be felt by the heat that radiates from the skin. When the midwife perceives that the woman is responding positively, she can massage, rub, stimulate the striated muscles as deeply as the woman can tolerate. This deep massage is especially beneficial around the pelvis. If the woman is having trouble pushing the baby out or the baby isn't descending into the pelvis because of muscle tension, massaging the psoas muscle will help bring the baby.
- Anonymous author, The Birthkit newsletter Issue No. 2 (a Midwifery Today publication)
At Midwifery Today, we have lots of tricks up our sleeves! Purchase our two volumes of Tricks of the Trade and you'll see what we mean:
Save $5 when you purchase both Tricks of The Trade Volume I and Volume II. Only $40 plus shipping! Call today to order: 800-743-0974. For more information, visit the links above. Mention code 940 and save an ADDITIONAL $2 when you buy both books. This extra savings offer has been extended until February 5, 1999.
4) News Flashes
Ultrasound--The Answer?
A study from Norway looks at outcomes of antenatal ultrasound diagnosis in thirty-six children with serious congenital problems. It sought to determine how many of the problems were detected by ultrasound before birth, and whether outcomes were better when the problem was known before birth than for babies where the problem was missed on the ultrasound and not seen until after delivery. The women had had an average of five scans, but the average was seven in women who had a problem detected. Only two of eight congenital diaphragmatic hernias were picked up on ultrasound, half the cases of abdominal wall defects (six our of twelve), five of thirteen cases of meningomyelocele and none of the three cases of bladder extroversion.
All thirteen babies with prenatal diagnosis were delivered by cesarean section. Nineteen of the twenty-three with postnatal diagnosis had an uncomplicated vaginal delivery. Those with prenatal diagnosis had shorter gestational age (about two weeks), lower birthweights, and slightly lower Apgar scores. Three out of thirteen (23 percent) died compared with one out of twenty-three (4 percent) of those diagnosed after birth.
- AIMS Journal, Vol. 10 No. 2
Blood Clotting Disorders and Birth Complications
Israeli researchers conducted genetic tests looking for mutations that could predispose women to blood-clotting disorders that may lead to higher risk of complications in pregnancy. In the study group of 220 women, half had had normal pregnancies while the other half had been affected by such complications as preeclampsia, abruptio placentae, fetal growth retardation or stillbirth. Authors of the study concluded that altogether, 65 percent of the women with complications had some form of inherited or acquired thrombophilia (a tendency to form blood clots), as compared with 18 percent of the women with normal pregnancies. Two thirds of women experiencing obstetrical complications in successive pregnancies carried at least one genetic mutation for a blood clotting disorder. However, nearly one in five (17 percent) of the study subjects with normal pregnancies carried at least one of the three genetic mutations. Since normal pregnancies comprise 95 percent of all cases, many women who have one or more types of thrombophilia will never have any of the complications. Widespread testing for thrombophilia should be delayed until there is better understanding of the risks to patients. (New England Journal of Medicine 1999; 340: 9-13)
5) How Sound is Ultrasound? - gleanings from Beverley Beech
Much of the attraction that ultrasound has for obstetricians is that they can for the first time "see" the baby. What most lay people do not realize is that much of the achievement lies in identifying problems which they cannot yet successfully treat (IUGR, for example). Even for those that are treated, there may be little or no evidence that treatment before birth is more successful than treatment afterward.
More information does not necessarily mean improved outcome. In a 1992 study from Denmark, 1,000 high-risk women were given screening at 29 weeks and every third week until delivery to estimate fetal weight. Obstetricians were only told the results for half the women. This did not improve fetal outcome; there were more perinatal deaths in the revealed group (7 vs. 4) and that group spent more time in hospital at more cost, but to no benefit.
There is rampant "failure to ensure that potentially dangerous equipment was used only by those who were adequately trained and at least understood the possibility of risk. Anyone can buy a scanner and anyone can use it." Scans are commonly done by personnel who have no specific training and have learned only by watching others. A properly trained sonographer can obtain necessary information from the scan more quickly, thereby reducing exposure to the baby.
In 1982 an Overview of Ultrasound commissioned by the Department of Health and Human Services suggested (from animal studies) the possibility of damage to the immune system, as well as neurological and behavioral effects. The authors concluded "the potential for acute adverse effects has not been systematically explored and the potential for delayed effects has been virtually ignored."
A 1984 study of children ages seven to twelve years born at three different hospitals who had been exposed to ultrasound in the womb showed that, compared with a control group of children who had not been exposed, they were more likely to have dyslexia and to have been admitted to hospital during their childhood.
Early ultrasound scans will often show a low-lying placenta and the mother will be classified as having a higher risk of placenta previa. The problem is that all the women who are considered to be at risk at this stage will not in fact have the problem at all. In a study in Finland, of 4,000 women who were scanned at sixteen to twenty weeks, about 250 were diagnosed as having placenta previa. When it came to delivery there were only four placenta previas, and one of those had not been diagnosed. No studies exist that demonstrate that early detection of placenta previa by ultrasound improves the outcome for mother or baby.
In a study of routine scanning, records were kept of the effect of anomalies on the attitude of parents and the extended family. The news of a minor anomaly can alter parental outlook and affect prenatal bonding. A further possibility is that the mother will undergo treatment or more investigations, or both, during pregnancy, and that the baby will have extra, possibly hazardous, treatments after birth. Finally, of course, the mother could choose abortion--whether it is based on a false ultrasound diagnosis of abnormality or not.
Accuracy and interpretation of scans varies enormously from center to center and also with the experience and training of the operator. False positive diagnoses are common, and in fact false negatives are even more so; both vary from place to place.
If mothers are having ultrasound scans, might informed consent not include the success rate [of diagnoses] of the unit she is attending?
Authors of a 1992 study report that for a number of serious conditions, more than 10 percent of antenatal diagnoses were completely wrong. As in most other published studies, however, no information is given on number of babies aborted which turned out to be normal.
In a 1987 University of California-San Diego animal study in which three to five day old rat pups were exposed to diagnostic levels of diagnostic ultrasound for thirty minutes, the exposed animals showed damage to myelin, the substance surrounding nerves. The development of myelination in rats at that age is similar to that of the human fetus at four to five months of pregnancy.
When an ultrasound takes place at sixteen to eighteen weeks, the most vulnerable organ is the forebrain. Neuroblast division occurs between the tenth and twentieth week. "If exposure to ultrasound... causes death of cells, then the practice of ultrasonic imaging at sixteen to eighteen weeks... will cause loss of neurons with little prospect of replacement of lost cells.... the vulnerability is not for malformation but for maldevelopment leading to mental impairment caused by overall reduction in the number of functioning neurons in the future cerebral hemispheres" (R. Mole, Birth 1986).
Editor's note: The preceding are merely excerpts from Beverley Beech's excellent book, "Ultrasound? Unsound" Practitioners and parents, please take time to give this little book a cover to cover read; it can be done in an hour or two. It will give you serious pause before you order the next ultrasound scan for a client or accept one for yourself and your baby. Excellent references listed within it will put you on a more extensive track toward finding out the truth about ultrasound. The book is available from Midwifery Today at a cost of $12 plus $2.50 S&H in the United States, $3.00 S&H to Canada and Mexico, and $3.25 S&H (ground) to all other international addresses. Call your order to 1-800-743-0974. The book may also be purchased through Beverley Beech, 21 Iver Lane, Iver Bucks SL0 9LH England, Fax: 01753-654142. Inquire about cost.
6) From the Garden
Arnica Massage Oil
No herbal list would be complete without reference to arnica. It often is like an answer to prayer for muscle, joint pain, bruising and any kind of tissue trauma. Rub it on or in, and the pain is relieved. Try it during perineal massage, both prenatally and during the birth itself. I once used olive oil during births, but arnica works much better. It seems to make perineums "feel like silk," as my friend says. The books say do not use arnica oil on broken skin, but I have no problems with it during a birth. There has also been concern that the oil weakens latex gloves. Change to new ones if using arnica longer than ten minutes, to reduce chances of breakdown. I have never had gloves break down due to arnica oil--and I have saved some bottoms!
- Lisa Goldstein in The Birthkit newsletter Issue No. 12 (a Midwifery Today publication).
To subscribe to the quarterly newsletter The Birthkit, call 800-743-0974, or email
7) Switchboard
In response to Jen Taylor's question about the efficacy of using vitamin B6 to help treat morning sickness (E-News Issue 4), Jen herself found this on the Internet:
Sahakian V, et al. "Vitamin B6 is effective therapy for nausea and vomiting of pregnancy: a randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled study." Obstet Gynecol 1991 Jul;78(1):33-6 (91261334 NLM)
Fifty-nine women completed a randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled study of pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6) for the treatment of nausea and vomiting of pregnancy. Thirty-one patients received vitamin B6, 25-mg tablets orally every 8 hours for 72 hours, and 28 patients received placebo in the same regimen. Patients were categorized according to the presence of vomiting: severe nausea (score greater than 7) or mild to moderate nausea (score of 7 or less). The severity of nausea (as graded on a visual analogue scale of 1-10 cm) and the number of patients with vomiting over a 72-hour period were used to evaluate response to therapy.
Twelve of 31 patients in the vitamin B6 group had a pre-treatment nausea score greater than 7 (severe) (mean 8.2 +/- 0.8), as did ten of 28 patients in the placebo group (mean 8.7 +/- 0.9) (not significant). Following therapy, there was a significant difference in the mean "difference in nausea score (i.e., baseline - post-therapy nausea) between patients with severe nausea receiving vitamin B6 (mean 4.3 +/- 2.1) and placebo (mean 1.8 +/- 2.2) (P less than .01). In patients with mild to moderate nausea and in the group as a whole, no significant difference between treatment and placebo was observed. Fifteen of 31 vitamin B6-treated patients had vomiting before therapy, compared with ten of 28 in the placebo group (not significant). At the completion of 3 days of therapy, only eight of 31 patients in the vitamin B6 group had any vomiting, compared with 15 of 28 patients in the placebo group (P less than .05).
Another E-News reader contributed this interesting information:
My favorite supplement I recommend to pregnant women is brewer's yeast tablets/powder for many reasons: it contains protein, it's a whole food source which means it's easily digestible, it contains most, if not all the B vitamins, it helps put you in a good mood, it increases your energy level, and... it eases nausea! All my moms have positive results with brewer's yeast and they also say their nausea is eased somewhat, if not totally.
- Amy Jones
In response to E-News Issue 2's information on using arnica for shoulder dystocia:
My understanding of homeopathy is that it can not be used prophylactically. The same situation will manifest differently in each individual, which would require a different remedy for each. So two cases of stuck shoulders could make different symptoms in the babies. One might need aconite, the other arnica.
- Nikki Lee RN, MSN, mother of two, IBCLC, ICCE, CST
Other feedback:
I wholeheartedly agree with the article about fetal heartbeat [Issue 4] and asking the mom about her baby's sleep/wake patterns. My seventh child was a week overdue, so I had a non-stress test. My midwife accompanied me and my husband. While we were there I told them that the baby typically slept during this period. He received a very poor score, much to our dismay. We were given an hour to try to waken him. After much belly shaking, orange juice, candy, an IV (not enough good pockets of fluid) and oral hydration, we went back and he was awake! He tested at a nine. Four days later he was born at home with two fabulous midwives, my husband and my best friend present. He weighed 9 lbs. 12 oz. and was very healthy.
I think all healthcare providers should listen a little better to moms and what they say about their baby's daily, in-utero activity.
- Cindy Traynor, CCE
8) Letters
Thanks so much for the newsletter. I'm a student midwife and a lot of the information is hard for me to understand, but I still find it very informative, convenient and inspirational. I really liked your link to Lora Lee's web site and I'd love to see more links to great sites. I do appreciate being included.
- Mary
I want to let you know how much I appreciate your newsletter! I am not a midwife, but I am four months pregnant with my first child. Two weeks after I found out I was pregnant, I met Kathy, my midwife. My entire life I have wanted to deliver at home (it's what my parents did); a hospital was never an option. Lucky for me, I married a wonderful man who is open minded enough to try homebirth. Since I found out I was pregnant, I have been doing plenty of research... consider it "ammo" against the skeptics! Your newsletter has been wonderful, informative, and easy enough for me to understand. It also makes it easier for my husband to understand why homebirth is the most logical choice. Thank you, and keep up the good work. I look forward to the upcoming issues.
- Nicole
I am very excited about the new newsletter. I find it to be very educational and refreshing, and I like hearing from other midwifery people. At present, I am a doula and am studying to become a traditional midwife. Birth is the most exciting thing to me and I enjoy helping a woman through labor. You are there with a woman and you work through each contraction, giving her plenty of emotional and physical support. Then she delivers a beautiful baby--that's the best thing in my world. I am the mother of four children, one cesarean and three vaginal deliveries. So I support vaginal delivery to the fullest.
- Cynthia Matthews
9) Coming E-News Themes
Coming issues of Midwifery Today E-News will carry the following themes. You are enthusiastically invited to write articles, make comments, tell stories, send techniques, ask questions, write letters or news items related to these themes:
- breech birth
We look forward to hearing from you very soon! Send your submissions to firstname.lastname@example.com. Some themes will be duplicated over time, so your submission may be filed for later use.
Cascade Health Care Products
We offer a complete line of products for midwives, birth centers, childbirth educators, lactation consultants and expectant parents.
Visit us at www.1cascade.com or call 1-800-443-9942.
This publication is presented by Midwifery Today, Inc., for the sole purpose of disseminating general health information for public benefit. The information contained in or provided through this publication is intended for general consumer understanding and education only and is not intended to be, and is not provided as, a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment.
Midwifery Today, Inc., does not assume liability for the use of this information in any jurisdiction or for the contents of any external Internet sites referenced, nor does it endorse any commercial product or service mentioned or advertised in this publication. Always seek the advice of your midwife, physician, nurse or other qualified health care provider before you undergo any treatment or for answers to any questions you may have regarding any medical condition.
Copyright Notice
The content of E-News is copyrighted by Midwifery Today, Inc., and, occasionally, other rights holders. You may forward E-News by e-mail an unlimited number of times, provided you do not alter the content in any way and that you include all applicable notices and disclaimers. You may print a single copy of each issue of E-News for your own personal, noncommercial use only, provided you include all applicable notices and disclaimers. Any other use of the content is strictly prohibited without the prior written permission of Midwifery Today, Inc., and any other applicable rights holders.
© 1999 Midwifery Today, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Midwifery Today: Each One Teach One!


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Assessment |
Biopsychology |
Comparative |
Cognitive |
Developmental |
Language |
Individual differences |
Personality |
Philosophy |
Social |
Methods | Statistics | Clinical | Educational | Industrial | Professional items | World psychology |
Biological: Behavioural genetics · Evolutionary psychology · Neuroanatomy · Neurochemistry · Neuroendocrinology · Neuroscience · Psychoneuroimmunology · Physiological Psychology · Psychopharmacology (Index, Outline)
| Stress
|Types of stress
|Causes of stress
|Protective factors
|[[Effects of stress
The allostatic load is "the wear and tear on the body" which grows over time when the individual is exposed to repeated or chronic stress.[1] It represents the physiological consequences of chronic exposure to fluctuating or heightened neural or neuroendocrine response that results from repeated or chronic stress.[2] The term was coined by McEwen and Stellar in 1993.[3]
It is used to explain how frequent activation of the body's stress response, essential for managing acute threats, can in fact damage the body in the long run. Allostatic load is generally measured through a composite index of indicators of cumulative strain on several organs and tissues, but especially on the cardiovascular system.[citation needed]
Reactions Edit
Stress hormones such as epinephrine and cortisol in combination with other stress-mediating physiological agents such as increased myocardial workload, decreased smooth muscle tone in the gastrointestinal tract, and increased coagulation effects have protective and adaptive benefits in the short term, yet can accelerate pathophysiology when they are overproduced or mismanaged; this kind of stress can cause hypertension and lead to heart disease. Constant or even irregular exposure to these hormones can eventually induce illnesses and weaken the body's immune system.[4]
Adaptation in the face of stressful situations and stimuli involves activation of neural, neuroendocrine and neuroendocrine-immune mechanisms. This adaptation has been called "allostasis" or "maintaining stability through change", which is an essential component of maintaining homeostasis. The main hormonal mediators of the stress response, cortisol and epinephrine (adrenaline), have both protective and damaging effects on the body.
In the short run, they are essential for adaptation, maintenance of homeostasis, and survival "allostasis". Yet, over longer time intervals, when called upon frequently, the resulting "allostatic load" exacts a cost that can accelerate disease processes. Allostatic load can be measured in physiological systems as chemical imbalances in autonomic nervous system, central nervous system, neuroendocrine, and immune system activity as well as perturbations in the diurnal rhythms, and, in some cases, plasticity changes to brain structures.
Four conditions that lead to allostatic load are:
- Repeated frequency of stress responses to multiple novel stressors;
- Failure to habituate to repeated stressors of the same kind;
- Failure to turn off each stress response in a timely manner due to delayed shut down; and
- Inadequate response that leads to compensatory hyperactivity of other mediators.
The effects of these forms of dysfunctional allostasis cause increased allostatic load and may, over time, lead to the development of disease. Allostatic load effects can be measured in the body. When tabulated in the form of allostatic load indices using sophisticated analytical methods, it gives an indication of cumulative lifetime effects of all types of stress on the body.[4]
See alsoEdit
- Aging
- Allostasis
- Chronic illness
- Hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis
- Holmes and Rahe stress scale
- Psychoneuroimmunology
- ↑ Jane Ogden (2004). Health Psychology: A textbook, 3rd edition, 259, Open University Press - McGraw-Hill Education.
- ↑ Taylor, S. E. (2006). Their work establishes a general relationship between daily stress, and wide-ranging diseases of the body and mind. Health Psychology. McGraw-Hill Education, pg. 160
- ↑ McEwen, BS, Stellar, E (1993 Sep 27). Stress and the individual. Mechanisms leading to disease.. Archives of internal medicine 153 (18): 2093–101.
- ↑ 4.0 4.1 McEwen B. S. (2000). Allostasis and allostatic load: implications for neuropsychopharmacology. Neuropsychopharmacology 22 (2): 108–24.
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A teenager who led police on a 19-minute, high-speed chase while his pregnant girlfriend screamed at him to stop has been locked up.
John Hewitt sped his brother's van through Guiseley and Otley at speeds of up to 70mph before colliding with a police car and losing control.
The van, in which his girlfriend was a passenger, then flipped onto its roof, Bradford Crown Court heard yesterday (THURS).
The court was told that Hewitt, 19, had done 50mph in a 40 zone; 60mph in a 30 zone; driven through Give Way junctions without stopping; gone the wrong way round roundabouts; sped through blind bends and travelled at 70mph down a narrow lane into Otley.
The judge, Recorder Edward Bindloss, said: "This was a prolonged piece of dangerous, bad driving. It was simply good fortune there was nobody injured or killed."
Hewitt and his girlfriend - who was six months' pregnant at the time - were not injured in the crash.
The chase started at 11.42pm on April 11 this year after police spotted Hewitt, who has never passed a driving test, speeding and he failed to stop for them. It finished at 12.01am when the van flipped onto its roof.
Recorder Bindloss added: "It is a miracle neither you, your partner or your unborn baby were injured.
"There was excessive speeding, it was of prolonged nature, and there was a vulnerable passenger who was screaming at you to stop and was scared to death according to the police report."
He added: "You were seeking to escape the police. You put yourself first and hoped you would get away from this."
In mitigation, the court heard that Hewitt was a reformed character after offending as a juvenile. It was said that he had a settled relationship with his partner and had set up a business with his brother.
The court heard that Hewitt had shown remorse for his actions, though he could not explain why he reacted like he did on the night, but it was added: "perhaps panic".
Hewitt, of Springs Terrace, Ilkley, had pleaded guilty to dangerous driving, driving without insurance and driving otherwise in accordance with a licence at a hearing on May 8.
Recorder Bindloss sent him to a young offenders' institution for eight months and disqualified him from driving for two years.


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Anyone here with personal CSS that is not showing up? It seems this is the only wiki I'm having problems with. Bermuda • Triangle • 17:36,6/26/2012
- I'm having this issue as well. According to the Wikia skype group, other uses are having similar issues, and they are to suspect this is the result of an updated MediaWiki 1.19.0. — Wattz2000 18:08, June 26, 2012 (UTC)


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AMD Announces Their First 8000M GPUsby Jarred Walton on 12/17/2012 4:21 PM EST
88 Comments
Back to Article
SydneyBlue120d - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkCorrect me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't this be the very first AMD GPU with *full* Linux driver support from day one? I remember long ago it was promised to have the very same feature support on Windows and Linux, starting from 8xxx family. Reply
nevertell - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkLike that is ever going to happen. As long as they don't share most of the code base for their drivers, this won't happen. And I am not aware of any plans on supporting Enduro on linux. Nvidia at least has a plan and a working community made workaround. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkMaybe they should have an actual product in the reviewers hands first, instead of the phantom product with the PR 100% campaign taking front and center ?
reminder: PAPER LAUNCH Reply
silverblue - Thursday, December 20, 2012 - linkI'm sorry, I may have misunderstood you here, but are you saying this press briefing for a product not due for a few months is a paper launch? Reply
RussianSensation - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkLinux market share = 1.25%
No company in their right mind that is facing changing industry trends and experiencing financial problems has extra resources to spend on an OS that comprises just 1.25% of the entire market. Your expectations for Linux support at this point in time are completely unrealistic. The payoff for the investment is just not worth it. Reply
HibyPrime1 - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkActually, with Steam coming to Linux it wouldn't be a terrible idea betting on the gaming market share of Linux going up a small amount. If they could become the de facto GPU in the Linux space, I'd say that's worthy of putting effort in. AMD needs to be making bets right now, playing it safe isn't going to save them from bankruptcy in the future.
Think about this; NVIDIA historically has been terrible at catering to the Linux community. If AMD were to do something incredibly bold like open-source their (currently) proprietary drivers, that would all but guarantee them exclusivity in the Linux world. Competing for 1.25% aint much, but having a monopoly over 1.25%? that's a different story. Reply
Notmyusualid - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkWell-said.
Imagine if they did that? Gamers, and other enthusiasts building their own systems from scratch, might then completely overlook Windows, and use the free option. Who knows what skills the community could offer to them in improving drivers?
TRUST ME, I'm no Penguin hugger, I FIGHT with Linux, not use it.
With the arrival of Steam, the take up of Linux would be seriously re-considered if the drivers went open source... and given the Win 8 release (stealing my start menu, when everyone seems to want it!), it might force MS to actually listen to customers once again.
Competition is a good thing. Reply
ShieTar - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkI am surprised that there is so little porting going on from PlayStation 3 titles to linux, given the fact the the PS3 already is running a linux-derivative.
At the same time, about 80% of big game titles coming for the PC are already portings or co-developments from/with the XBOX 360.
Of course, a market share of 1.25% of linux probably means that only 2.5% of all users care one way or annother what OS they have. Whatever comes with the PC (or tablet) and runs their software is fine for most people. Reply
ravyne - Sunday, December 23, 2012 - linkPS3 games aren't built for Linux or any derivative thereof -- Early PS3s could *run* Linux, and I suppose it might even be possible that the dash interface might be derived from Linux, but games themselves take complete control of the system, much like an OS does. The PS3 has an optional, openGL-like API, but I'd wager that nearly all AAA games are writing commands directly to the GPU hardware, at least for the meat of the rendering. At minimum, porting a PS3 game to linux would require substituting Linux API calls for any bare-metal coding, porting any PPC/Altivec assembly to x86/SSE, porting SPU code to SSE or OpenCL as appropriate, substituting OpenGL calls for any GPU control statements (and similarly for audio), and finally auditing the code base for any statements that rely on how the PS3's particular CPU operates, because the behavior of certain operations (floating-point accuracy and rounding mode, shift behavior, others) can be different and this is visible even to high-level languages like C and C++. Then you might have fundamental differences between memory models (strongly vs weakly ordered) and cache coherency... All that just to get it working, and *then* you get to re-tune things for performance because consoles tend to have a few other tricks up their sleeves that PCs simply don't -- there's quite a few reasons why a PS3 or 360 game can hold its own against PC games with far better hardware. Reply
RussianSensation - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&... Reply
Stuka87 - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkAMD nuts would have to be nuts to open source the whole driver. There is a lot of code in there that they do NOT want nVidia to see. Same reason nVidia wont open source their whole driver.
When you open source something, you are basically giving it away. Any trade secrets that you have in that code is no longer a secret once released. Reply
HibyPrime1 - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkThe hope is that the gains from releasing their driver source would outweigh the losses to NVIDIA, if there were to be losses.
At this point, I'm sure the majority of the software tricks either party uses is well known by both sides. If this were 10 years ago I'd say the trade secrets should be kept secret, but I doubt there is more than just minor things that NVIDIA doesn't already know.
In one of the more public secret keepings (if that makes sense) with eyefinity, AMD/ATI managed to keep that secret right up until launch day. It didn't take long for NVIDIA to do the same thing in software. So even keeping a secret closed up until launch day only gave AMD a few months (IIRC) of a head start.
That said even if there were major trade secrets in the code, I doubt they would be of much use. The two companies use very different hardware and quite likely have very different requirements. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkIt's amazing how stupid the amd fan nuts are - they whined for years without PhysX and screamed proprietary, pretended nVidia didn't offer the port through NGOHQ and support it while amd killed it, then when amd finally put some money where their mouth was on open source, they LOCKED UP WINZIP tight into their little nazi proprietary bundle, becoming the most gigantic hypocrite possible.
Now, the little fluttering brainflies want another liars show - perhaps AMD should just tell them they will soon open source everything, then direct the idiot minions to attack nVidia because they have not done so already...
Yes, that will work - then when amd files bankruptcy and caves in from their cheap penny pinching idiot worshipful bagbrains, they can lock up the code forever in some deep and mysterious hostile takeover agreement... and their tinpot dictated believe any lie ever fans can blame the evil "BAIN!" that did freedom and open source code in...
There, that should be sent directly to amd HQ, they'll probably accuse me of corporate espionage for stealing their PR campaign outlines. Reply
g101 - Sunday, March 17, 2013 - linkOh look, the lifeless dipshit is still here.
You troll every single AMD article with meaningless BS. How does it feel when nvidia releases products after AMD and has shitty, shitty 'physx' (very little resemblance to actual physics and *nothing* that couldn't be run easily on a modern CPU) titles like borderlands 2 ? It looks like it was drawn by a kid with a smudgy marker. This wondrous display of fidelity and 'pisics gaise!' was going on while AMD was working on superior and innovative products with the larger developers, all while consistently outperforming nvidia for less.
Then...the compute comparison comes into play...
Sorry, little boy. The green-with-jealousy team brought nothing to the table this year except over-priced, no overhead, green-light crap.
Get an education, N0vida will not be able to pay you for being part of their water-army-comment-ridiculously-deluded-little-child group much longer...AMD now owns the console market. PS4: AMD APU. xbox720: AMD APU. Steambox: AMD APU, possibly with a small AMD discrete card. Wii: AMD APU.
I guess nvidia will have to make their own titles? Reply
klmccaughey - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkThey just can't open source them, it would be commercial suicide. I would love it, but I just can't see it happening. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Tuesday, December 25, 2012 - linkWait a minute !
All the amd fanboys for the past uncountable years have:
DEMANDED that nVidia open source it's PhysX !!!
I'm sure they still demand it, even though their queen traitor amd locked up winzip tight with proprietary code amd and all it's minions and masters preached they would never, ever do !
I haven't seen a single amd fanboy apologize, EVER.
Now that's as shameful as it gets.
You can't do worse. Reply
g101 - Sunday, March 17, 2013 - linkOh look, the lifeless dipshit is still here.
You troll every single AMD article with meaningless BS. How does it feel when nvidia releases products after AMD and has shitty, shitty 'physx' (very little resemblance to actual physics and *nothing* that couldn't be run easily on a modern CPU) titles like borderlands 2 ? It looks like it was drawn by a kid with a smudgy marker. This wondrous display of fidelity and 'pisics gaise!' was going on while AMD was working on superior and innovative products with the larger developers, all while consistently outperforming nvidia for less.
Then...the compute comparison comes into play...
Sorry, little boy. The green-with-jealousy team brought nothing to the table this year except over-priced, no overhead, green-light crap.
Get an education, N0vida will not be able to pay you for being part of their water-army-comment-ridiculously-deluded-little-child group much longer...AMD now owns the console market. PS4: AMD APU. xbox720: AMD APU. Steambox: AMD APU, possibly with a small AMD discrete card. Wii: AMD APU.
I guess nvidia will have to make their own titles? Reply
SydneyBlue120d - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkI was talking about this:
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&am... Reply
MrSpadge - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkOf the small minority running Linux even fewer need serious 3Dacceleration - otherwise they'd be running windows by now. Reply
Inteli - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkActually, I just switched my laptop to linux, and it's a lot less resource intensive. I imagine i would get better performances on games, so I see more people using linux for more 3D intensive applications. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkLast time I tried Linux, I actually found it felt every bit as resource intensive as Windows 7. It also took longer to boot and delivered worse battery life. If you're running a stripped down flavor of Linux, as opposed to Ubuntu, I'm sure it can boot more quickly, but part of what makes a modern OS desirable is also what makes it resource intensive.
As for performance being better in games, I doubt it -- the GPU is usually the big bottleneck, and the best way to improve GPU utilization is through optimizing the drivers. AMD and NVIDIA have been doing Windows drivers for years with every last ounce of effort put into improving performance; there's no reason to suppose that they would somehow get better results from their Linux drivers.
Open source Linux drivers would be a different matter, but I expect it will take years for the Open Source community to match what AMD has done in terms of optimizations -- unless AMD truly were to release every piece of low level information on their hardware that's necessary in order to properly optimize performance, which isn't going to happen. Reply
CadentOrange - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkI guess YMMV. My laptop gets about 3 hours 30 minutes of battery life under Ubuntu 12.04 while it does only 3 hours under Windows 7. I've no comment about gaming performance as there aren't any games worth playing on Linux until Steam arrives.
I am using the closed source AMD Catalyst drivers as the open source drivers do not appear to support power management, so it eats through battery power like it's going out of style. Reply
tuxRoller - Saturday, December 29, 2012 - linkPhoronix tends to get pretty similar benchmarks to windows when using the nvidia blob. I don't think I need to explain why that is to you. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkI think you might want to wait for the massive 100% totally paper launch to "proceed to the era where hardware is actually available secretly to the reviewing e-reporters, before declaring a pure linux support win....
You know ?
Like maybe some actual hardware in someone's lab before launching the great celebration of amd keeping it's word....
Best joke yet, amd keeping it's word. Reply
tipoo - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkWhy can't the series names be consistent across desktop and mobile? You think 7000 series, and you think GCN architecture, but really the mobile parts are on the previous one. And then you hear 8000 series and you think the next architecture, but really they're just finally moving the mobile parts to GCN. Why? What knucklehead thought this was a good idea? Reply
tipoo - Monday, December 17, 2012 - link*Barring the parts noted at the top of the article. But that makes it even more confusing, within the same broad family there are different architectures. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, December 17, 2012 - link7700M, 7800M, and 7900M are all GCN, but yes, it's a bit of a pain. The reality is that making a new architecture and then executing that across all market segments is very difficult. NVIDIA's solution with 600M was to only do two chips initially, GK107 and GK104 -- and even then they still had a few Fermi-based 600M parts. Considering Cape Verde is totally design complete and needs no further work to ship parts, what would be the incentive to design a replacement that doesn't substantially change performance or features? They did make a replacement for the lower-tier 7500M/7600M, and maybe we'll see 8400M get "retired" -- the 7400M is really not much better than Intel's HD 4000 -- so now everything likely to be used is on 28nm GCN.
I'm still curious to see what AMD (and NVIDIA) have planned for their next generation GPUs on desktops. CI (Sea Islands) might improve efficiency in a few areas, but the only way to really make it faster while staying on 28nm is to go bigger, and Tahiti is already plenty big. NVIDIA will no doubt have GK110 based high-end parts, but I'm not sure any of that will touch the mobile market. I suspect we'll be waiting until the next process node before AMD and NVIDIA really get a major generational improvement-- so we're experiencing something similar to how the GeForce 400 and 500 parts weren't all that different, or Radeon 5000/6000. Reply
RussianSensation - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkI still think it's unacceptable from a marketing point of view to launch an HD8870M part that happens to be slower than HD7870M. That's going to be extremely confusing/unfair to the consumers who don't follow the GPU industry as we do. That is worse than rebadging. That's similar to how HD6850/6870 replaced HD5850/5870 but unless you followed the GPUs closely, you might have thought they were actually superior parts.
I think AMD should have just gotten rid of the extra transistors used for double precision compute performance for HD8900 series to make room for more graphical functional units. They could always reintroduce the double precision performance back on 20nm node once transistor space/power consumption permits this. NV's strategy of focusing on lean gaming chips with Kepler paid off and knowing that AMD was going to deal with 28nm node again in 2013, as you said it's hard to imagine how they can squeeze a lot more performance than 15-20% (GTX400 --> 500 or HD5870 --> HD6970 series) without running into die space/power consumption constraints. Reply
silverblue - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkI'm a bit confused here. Both the 7700 to 7900 ranges for desktop and mobile were GCN with the lower parts VLIW5. As most of the complaints about AMD's rebranding seem to be targeted at their mobile parts, I find this baffling especially considering NVIDIA's attempts at confuddling everybody with the GT 640.
Allegedly, Sea Islands breaks the 5B transistor and 32 ROP barriers, but until AMD confirms anything, that's just heresay. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkHere, be less confused - amd has HACKED their prior core into a tiny bit, and claimed it is releasing a new gpu...
*"SI chips ("London" ) have 640 cores max for Cape Verde, 1280 max for Pitcairn, and 2048 for Tahiti...
AMD has likely created a fourth SI derivative that drops down to two CU arrays, each with three CUs. (You can read more about the GCN/SI architecture in our earlier GPU coverage.) "
Oh, in other words, we've seen this chip before, and the prior derivatives are fuller chips and faster. Good job amd, cut your garbage in half or thirds or quarters or one sixth, and "release a new 8000 screamer !"
Not so confusing when the truth is told flat out. I guess amd had some serious binning issues with massive chip failures, so they just hacked off a tiny corner of the gpu that still "worked", kinda, and made it a new release...
" Performance is something of a wildcard with the new 384 core parts, and the choice of DDR3/GDDR5 memory "
Love that, the in cahoots vendors can release the new "screamer 8000 series!" and dump on you with ddr3 for the gpu and NEVER TELL YOU.
Then, as a sick amd penny pinching bankruptcy producing fanatic, you get your ddr3 1/6th the former core piece of crap, and you "sing the praises of your immensely brilliant master builder amd!"
That's going to be another wonderful amd fanboy ride. I guess the lies spewed forth will have to up it another several notches. Reply
RussianSensation - Thursday, December 20, 2012 - linkWhat's your back-up name? Wreckage? Rollo? Jesse Lee? You sound like one of those uninformed trolls.
Did you forget that GT640 was 3 different GPUs? No only did they mix and match DDR3 and GDDR5, but GT640 was both a Fermi and a Kepler part:
Oh how quickly you forgot that a ton of GTX600 parts were rebadged Fermis and not 28nm Keplers:
Did you close your blind eye to NV crippling its GPUs with 64-bit and DDR3 memory as well?
Both companies have been using these shortcuts for years, labelling old generation as next gen, mixing and matching 64/128-bit buses, DDR3 with GDDR5, etc. Next time if you are going to pretend to be an informed fanboy, at least do some research so you don't make a fool out of yourself on a tech website. Reply
SlyNine - Saturday, December 22, 2012 - linkDon't feed the trolls. Reply
Wolfpup - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkThe 7000 series is a mixture of last gen and GCN parts for mobile, which is annoying and confusing, but not new. Both companies have been doing this for years now...heck, really going all the way back to the Geforce 4 vs. Geforce 4 MX that was kind of a Geforce 2. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkYes, when amd does it, be certain to never mention them directly and then of course make certain to blame their competitor.
Another perfect little amd fanboy, the verdetrol is working well. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, December 20, 2012 - linkThe 4000 and 5000 series were self contained, however there are times that utiising a previous generation's technology to fill certain price points makes sense. The G92 was recycled enough, let's be honest.
We can go back and look at both companies in more detail if you like as regards rebrands and redesigns. The Radeon 9000 was a redesign whilst the 6770, besides the newer UVD block, was just a 5770 rebrand (decent card that sold well, so it's not really that offensive).
If AMD can behave as regards their branding then that's one major complaint out of the way, leaving a few more to go. NVIDIA need to sort themselves out in this area too. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Tuesday, December 25, 2012 - linkYou people raged for what seemed a decade over the G80 + all it's derivatives, the difference being it was the king chip[ at the time, and for a long time, and all it's derivatives brought that king performance crown on down to the masses for a very long time.
G80 aka G92 derivative, is still a decent gaming chip to this very day.
I loved listening to the endless lies from you very same people, who now have a statuatory nuanced view with all sorts of caveats and cannot HELP themselves to definitely mention the not bankrupt competition when it's nowhere in sight - not even any tiny bit of the article (except of course the required pathetic rabbiting about nVidia, since that's who you people are. )
I will thoroughly enjoy amd's coming bankruptcy, I will relish every moment, you can count on it, I won't be able to stop laughing and celebrating.
I will also blame it on people like you, as that where the blame lies. :-)
Great job fanboy, destruction is thy fare. Reply
Gunbuster - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkSleazy pr 101 start your vs bar chart at something other than 0. Reply
Mr Perfect - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkWe where all only looking at the top third of the chart anyway, right? Reply
Mr Perfect - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkAnd yes, that was sarcasm on my part. Reply
mrdude - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkWhy didn't you bother to mention that these cards are the successors to the old 40nm VLIW5 lineup?
"Performance-wise, AMD expects the new GPUs to be substantially quicker than their predecessors. The company's internal benchmarks show gains of around 20-50% from the Radeon HD 7590M to the Radeon HD 8690M, and about as much from the 7670M to the 8770M. In other words, folks should be getting a lot more performance—and likely increased power efficiency—at the same price points."
No, these aren't rebrands - *unless the 8800m is*. Instead, these are the replacements to the old 5xxx/6xxx cards that were rebranded and called anything under 7690m.
It seems TSMC's ramped up production of 28nm enough and wafer availability + pricing has gotten to a point where it makes sense to salvage some potential scrap and make a lower end GPU out of it. If these are priced right they could make for good laptop chips, provided AMD can actually get Enduro working. Reply
SetiroN - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkIt wasn't spelled out but to me it was pretty clear 8500/8600/8700M series are GCN parts in contrast with the older lower-end 7xxxM parts, which were a rebrand themselves.
What should be made more clear is how *ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS* this all is.
After Nvidia rebranding Fermi parts to make them look like Kepler 6xxMs, now probably every single one of the new AMD mobile lineup is going to have lower performance than the respective 7xxxM SKU.
Although we don't know the details yet, if they're comparing 7670M to 8770M and 7590M to 8690M it is clear that they're pulling off the same 58xx->69XX stunt. It seems pretty clear, by projecting what the gimped&rebranded 8800M is going to be.
I could look the other way when it was limited to entry level SKUs, but rebranding relatively high-end 78xxM GPUs to 88xxM while also substantially lowering their performance (don't tell me 500 more MHz on the RAM are ever going to make up for 100-150MHz on the core, this is all done to lower power consumption) is absolutely unacceptable. They're trying to make people think "hey look, not only the 8800M is newer, it also has a lower TDP!" as if they were completely new generation parts.
Also I can't wait to see 8700M parts clocked as low as 8500M, as the graph suggests it will be possible. Disgusting. Reply
mrdude - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkIt costs a pretty penny for a wafer at 28nm. If the yields are good, and all signs show that they are, it makes little sense for either company, nVidia or AMD, to make an entire product line using the architecture and process.
Why bother to bin something like a GT610m or 7490m if it's going to sell for pennies anyway?
This is approach isn't seen only in the laptop area but in the same low end discrete desktop GPUs as well.
But this isn't a rebranding at all. In fact, this looks more like a refresh of the entire mobile lineup that was previously rebranded. nVidia will likely follow suit as well and hopefully we'll see both companies on 28nm throughout all of their discrete GPUs for both mobile and desktop - assuming the others reach EOL (end of life) sometime soon.
So what's up with the tone? and not just you, but Jarred as well. If you're sick of refreshes and rebrands, this is exactly the type of news you should be happy to see...
"We'll have more on that in a moment, but while we were expecting a rebranding prior to the call, it appears we are at least partially mistaken—you can see the previous generation high-end 7000M announcement from April 2012 for reference."
You weren't partially mistaken, you seem to be completely mistaken. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkWhich part of the discussion of 8800M begin a rebrand did you miss? So everything 8700M and lower is using a new GCN chip, but at the same time we've just compressed the performance difference between 7500M, 7600M, and 7700M. The 8500M series is 384 cores at 650MHz (maybe lower on some models), the 8700M is 384 cores at up to 850MHz, so the range of performance is now about 30% increase.
The second part of the discussion is that we're looking at new parts at the lower end of the market, so no that's not nearly as exciting as real improvements in the midrange and high-end markets. One performance comparison shown in the slide deck of AMD vs. AMD is 8770M vs. 7670M, rather than 8770M vs. 7770M. It looks like the 8770M is around 30% faster, give or take, but the 7770M is 512 cores clocked at 675MHz while 7670M is 480 cores clocked at 600MHz. So, 7770M is around 20% faster than 7670M, and 8770M would thus only be a ~10% upgrade to 7770M.
Another comparison is 8690M vs. 7590M, where 8690M looks to be about 20% faster in most games. Problem is, 7590M is 480 cores at 600MHz while 7690M is 480 cores at 725MHz -- that's a 20% difference right there! In my book, you compare the same family to show improvement, so 8690M goes up against 7690M, 8770M goes against 7770M, and 8590M would go against 7590M. That's not what AMD is showing right now.
Granted, these are all preliminary results and we won't have hardware for a month or more I'd guess. We don't know power or other aspects of performance that are important either. What we really need to know to judge value and performance is: how does 8870M compared to 8770M, how does 8870M compare to GTX 660M and GTX 670MX, etc. Right now, we only know a few base specs, and I'm not going to spend too much time praising an apparently new GPU at the low end of the market. The 384 core AMD parts are going to be a nice addition for budget laptops, but until we have hardware and independent benchmarks in hand there's not much to say. Reply
lmcd - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkI'd like to reference my above reply: it's irrelevant. It really is. Enthusiasts buy GPUs in a competitive market, where everyone looks at the GPU and overall price tag. Noobs buy looking at the CPU, price tag and MAYBE the AMD graphics sticker (though usually they don't look) requiring AMD to be just as competitive with pricing as if they made their model numbers match up with where you'd like them.
Also, it's beneficial that they're compressed: we no longer have crap (equivalent to) the GT 610, HD 7350 and other junk that barely deserves to be on a CPU die, let alone one dedicated to a GPU.
It means AMD is waking up to Intel's improving iGPUs, too. That's equally important; AMD's marketshare depends heavily on beating Intel's iGPUs. Reply
lmcd - Monday, December 17, 2012 - link*compressed range
Also, half of these processors go onto machines with 1366x768 screens where most if not all are adequate for light-moderate gaming. Reply
mrdude - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkSo let's get this straight...
You're being pissy because AMD is providing incremental upgrades and bumping up the entire lineup to 28nm?
"Right now, we only know a few base specs, and I'm not going to spend too much time praising an apparently new GPU at the low end of the market. "
And when a majority of discrete GPUs in laptops are low end anyway, where does that leave us?
Right. The same place we started. You being completely unaware of what this new generation of products is meant to replace. Instead of realizing that a vast majority of mGPUs are sub GT660m - FFS, Jarred, have you seen the amount of Kepler rebrands "new" laptops have? These NEW GPUs are meant to replace everything that was lower than a 7730m, and even the first gen GCN parts might get a small architectural upgrade.
If you're sick of rebrands and want more efficient GPUs, whether it's lower end or not, this is the most welcome news we've seen in 2-3 years for mobile GPUs from AMD. And, as a writer for Anandtech, you COMPLETELY missed that point.
So well done. Really. Spot on article. While BSN* and TR actually at least partially addressed this point, you seem to ignore it altogether and go to the comments to defend your stance. Reply
mrdude - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkSorry, that should read Fermi rebrands. Anything sub 640m is a Fermi product, and in fact even some post 640m are Fermi. Reply
mrdude - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkHere are some actual articles worth reading that spell out exactly what these parts are meant to do and what Jarred felt wasn't important enough to mention:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/2012... Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkJust to be clear, you completely ignored all my commentary on the fact that the only benchmarks AMD has provided show performance comparisons between different classes -- 8690M vs. 7590M and 8770M vs. 7670M. We also have the lopsided HD 8870M vs. GT 650M comparison, which is like comparing the desktop HD 7870 with a desktop GTX 650 Ti and crowing about how AMD is over 50% faster. That's a big part of why this announcement isn't really impressing me, and until we know three things there's not much more to be said:
1) We need to know the real performance numbers under a wide range of games.
2) We need to see how much the laptops with the various GPUs cost.
3) We need to know how much power the chips draw under various loads.
Until we know those items, to speculate and say that they're substantially faster and/or more power efficient is taking things too far.
Furthermore, regarding power use AMD and NVIDIA have been targeting (with their OEM partners) roughly the same mobile GPU TDPs for years: ~35W, ~45W, 60~75W, and ~100W (with that last being a more recent addition). Anything less than 35W is typically reserved for the stuff that no one actually recommends -- unless you think GT 620M and HD 7470M are great products? Right now, there's no reason the new parts would open up a lower power class than what we already have. I expect the new 384 core GCN parts will go head-to-head against NVIDIA's GK107 parts, but at the same time I don't expect to see any major improvements in overall gaming performance.
More important with regards to power, nearly all laptops are now using switchable graphics, so I don't really care how much power a dGPU uses at idle. It's either running full tilt to play a game -- in which case I'm plugged in and want as much performance as I can get -- or it's powered off and HD 4000 (or the appropriate Trinity iGPU) is doing the work. So at the lower end of the performance range we have GT 640M/650M/GTX 660M going against HD 8500M/8600M/8700M, and probably trading blows depending on the title. Competition is good, and NVIDIA really needs some in the mobile sector right now as they seem to be outselling AMD by a huge margin in laptops (until you add in numbers from Apple, but that's not entirely fair as Apple is a separate class and has been swapping between AMD and NVIDIA on a regular basis depending on who gives them the better deal), but going back to my three points above, it's way too early to be crowning a victor.
Finally, there's speculation -- and only speculation -- that the new GPUs will get into Ultrathins and Ultrabooks. I'm highly skeptical that will really matter, because right now I can name two Ultrabooks with dGPUs: ASUS UX32A/UX32VD, and Acer TimelineU M3/M5 -- and if you really want to stretch the definition, you have Razer's "first real gaming laptop" Blade, which is full of hyperbole, or the Apple MacBook Pro 15 Retina. Everything else is iGPU only, mostly because the majority of people aren't really playing games on Ultrabooks/Ultrathins. Plus, even if the new dGPUs use 25W, that's more than double what the rest of the system would use, and we already run into throttling and heat issues on many Ultrabooks with just a 17W CPU/APU. Considering the only viable and affordable gaming Ultrabook is a 14" Acer M5 that really pushes the limits of Ultrabook (it weighs about 4.5 pounds, for instance), I don't know that we'll see any real gaming class Ultrathin/Ultrabook laptops until the next process node -- which will bring Haswell and 20nm GPUs into the picture.
So go ahead and call this "the most welcome news we've seen in 2-3 years for mobile GPUs from AMD". I did't completely miss that point; I simply disagree with your (IMO unwarranted) optimism. I took a more or less neutral tone, as we don't have the information necessary to take a stronger stance. We have a Johnny-come-lately smaller Southern Islands GCN part, and we have a rebrand. If that's the most exciting news in 2-3 years, that speaks more about the unimpressive execution of AMD's mobile GPUs during the past 2-3 years than anything. And really, I'd say Turks at its launch was at least as impressive as the Mars "Solar System" GPU announced here. Reply
mrdude - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkJarred, the price points are pointed out in your slides. Apparently you missed it:
The 8800 is competing with the 7700, and the 8600 is actually competing with the 7400 40nm parts as far as pricing and segmentation go.
We don't know the performance figures, but considering every GPU in recent history has been 10-30%, I'd say it's pretty darn safe to conclude that this will be along those lines. Furthermore, given the segments of the market these are intended to, we can also deduce what they'll likely cost as well. This isn't Bulldozer we're talking about, this is ATi. They're not going to backwards, Jarred. We know how GCN performs and we know the performance of the older 40nm parts. Is it really that difficult for you?
What we CAN conclude with near certainty is:
- they'll perform better than the 40nm parts. I think to assume otherwise would be asinine.
- The perf-per-watt will be substantially better.
- The parts will likely cost the same (maybe a bit higher) than those they replaced. AMD isn't going to refresh their entire lineup and move it to GCN + 28nm if they don't plan on it selling, which means reasonable pricing.
Despite what you think, the low end GPUs outsell the upper tier stuff by a very large margin, Jarred. Opting to ignore the improvements here - and you can argue % all you want, but I think we both KNOW that we'll see improvements in every single metric - is ridiculous.
And that's what you did. You ignored it, and then went to the comments to defend why you ignored it. The reason? Because apparently nobody gives a damn about lower/mid tier GPUs despite the fact that they outsell the other high end stuff many times over.
I don't care about AMD. They're not going to survive the next two years anyway. What I do care about, though, is that this article was exponentially worse than the others I've read on other sites and that this article included some seriously backwards thinking.
Only the high end matters?
Christ, Jarred. Get real. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkI don't care if stuff sells like hotcakes if it doesn't make sense. There are a bunch of business laptops that ship with GPUs like the HD 7470M, but there's not really a good reason to put such a GPU into a business laptop. Either you need more performance than HD 4000, and in that case you need HD 7600M or above, or you don't need it at all. The reason it sells is because the OEMs push it, not because it makes sense.
Quit being obtuse and suggesting that I've ever stated Mars will be worse than Turks or the other 40nm parts. It's not a question of whether it will be better, but rather how much better. 28nm parts will be faster than the existing 40nm parts, they'll likely use a bit less power under load for the improved performance, and they're going to cost a lot less for AMD to manufacture. But they'll cost about the same as the current parts, and they will still be a large step down from the true midrange parts. OEMs will push them in their crappy laptops that sell thousands of units but are built of plastic and fall apart in a year or two, and in 90% of those laptops they won't even matter because the owners won't play games.
You're hyperbole is so far out of line that I have to think that this is more of a personal vendetta than a reasonable discussion. "Exponentially worse"? Oh, wait: it's the Internet. You should be happy I even took the time to respond to your attack laden message, as really you're just spouting off with little useful data to back it up. You're extrapolating based on what you think will happen, I'm saying "we'll see when product ships." If you want a good gaming GPU, the new Mars chips are about as low as you can go without having to dial way back on details. Personally, I'd rather go with the already shipping Cape Verde/Chelsea GPUs.
Based on what I've discussed in the above posts, we'll see a 10-20% increase in performance, relative to Turks, and that's good but not earthshattering. AMD on slide 25 shows a performance increase of roughly 30% going from 7670M to 8770M. If they're the same price, that's great, which is what slide 28 might suggest; but slide 28 also suggests that there is no currently slated replacement for HD 7800M or 7900M. 7900M I can understand, but 8800M is 7800M in every way we can find, probably a bit slower thanks to the lower clocks, so I don't know what AMD is thinking there. Will we have 8970M as the top-tier part and 8950M as the 7870M replacement? Maybe 8970M-X2 for the top with 8970M as the next step down?
You're reading this marketing chart as though it's the bible and is not to be questioned; my job as an analyst is in fat to look at stuff like this and question it. So I look at the charts and say, "Gee, 8800M is a rebrand of 7800M, which AMD refuses to admit; AMD pulled this launch in three weeks (from the Jan 7 official launch) and gave us a bunch of fluff. Why?" Well, MrDude says it's because the new low-end GPUs will be awesome, but my opinion -- and the sentiment of many other readers -- is that the low-end GPUs are only interesting for OEMs. At the higher end segments where having a dGPU really matters, we're getting a lateral rebrand at best. The OEMs win, AMD wins, and the sheep buying entry level to midrange laptops lose. Congratulations!
Never mind the drivers, which are still in need of work (though thankfully getting better), or the fact that NVIDIA has offered performance that is around 40% better than Turks with lower power requirements for over six months. Yes, GT 640M has been kicking the crap out of anything using HD 7670M and below since it launched. Meanwhile, 7730M is in one laptop I can find right now (Dell Inspiron 15R Special Edition) and the 7750M is also in one laptop (HP ENVY 15), while 7770M is MIA. And naturally, Enduro hasn't really worked properly/adequately until the Catalyst 9.01 beta. So AMD now has an SI chip coming in Q1 that will hopefully be able to match GK107 on performance and power, and maybe even at a lower price. But until we can buy the laptops, we can't really say for sure. Reply
mrdude - Thursday, December 20, 2012 - linkA crappy mobile GPU that isn't HD4000 on a ULV machine also means no stuttering, which any Intel ULV will do, and that's without question. The only question is if you're going to stutter due to TDP constraints or will it overheat before it gets there.
And practically nothing of what you've wrote in the comment is implied or referenced in the article. And I'm not being obtuse, I'm simply pointing out your ignorance here. I'm not the one who claimed that anything 7670m and lower isn't worth mentioning. You did. You chose only to focus on the higher end parts and said nothing regarding the performance bump, which we both agree we'll inevitably see. The price points, too, were completely ignored. Because, as you said, only high end matters.
And lastly, you're confusing me with someone with a sentimental attachment to a corporation which won't see the light of day in 2014. I wouldn't take an AMD GPU in a laptop if given to me for free due to the driver issues, but if labeling me an AMD fanboy makes you feel better for a horrible article and unbelievably ignorant comments then keep up the good work. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, December 24, 2012 - linkI said "Performance is something of a wild card depending on the use of DDR3/GDDR5" -- and I could add 128-bit or 64-bit interfaces (wouldn't be surprised to see some 64-bit stuff come out still, though I hope that's not the case), and the "up to xxxMHz" clauses always make me leery. I expect an improvement on the 7670M and lower GPUs ranging from about 0% to as much as 30%, depending on the title. But as I've been trying to make clear, it depends on the comparison you make.
With 8570M be faster than 7670M? It depends on final clocks, but probably a difference of less than 10%. I draw the line of "useful improvement" from a hardware update at around 20%, because a 10% improvement just doesn't matter enough in most cases. So when AMD shows 8690M vs. 7590M and gets a 30% average improvement, I have to point out the fact that they're skewing the numbers by intentionally using a higher ranking 8000M part vs. a lower ranking 7000M part, which makes me wonder what else we're not seeing.
That is all. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, December 24, 2012 - linkAlso note what I say in the rest of the paragraph, which is why we're really waiting for performance details on real, shipping hardware: "We'll find out in the coming months how the 8500/8600/8700M stack up to NVIDIA's midrange "GT" offerings, which interestingly are also using 384 cores."
You can bellyache all you want about me not talking about how AMD is improving on AMD, but that's not the question. If HD 8500/8600/8700M can't outperform NVIDIA's (now six months old) GT 640M/650M/GTX 660M, then this update is definitely too little, too late. And yet again, the slides from AMD compare the 8870M with the GT 650M, which is a completely lopsided match.
So, I'm not ignorant (as in, there's not something useful in this conversation that I don't know), but you *are* still being obtuse (slow to understand). If you weren't being a typical Internet troll and thumping your chest, we could have agreed pages ago and not worried about the trivial differences of opinion. You have your opinion that this is a major update; I understand that opinion and I disagree that it's a big deal -- at least from the perspective of the users. It's great for AMD (cheaper to make parts at similar prices means better profits -- something AMD desperately needs), but as I have repeatedly stated, if you want a GPU for something, you likely want more than HD 7600M/8700M hardware. I can "get by" with GT 650M, but it's not an awesome experience for the times when I need a GPU (gaming); it's at best tolerable. Reply
just4U - Friday, December 28, 2012 - linkI am glad you took the time to reply so much on this article Jarred. While going hands on in the forum can have it's pitfalls it also helps. Thanks! Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkThanks for soliciting the truth from the author:
" Never mind the drivers, which are still in need of work (though thankfully getting better), or the fact that NVIDIA has offered performance that is around 40% better than Turks with lower power requirements for over six months. Yes, GT 640M has been kicking the crap out of anything using HD 7670M and below since it launched. "
LOL - can you say amd epic fail, over and over ?
Here, let me show you how nice the author was to you, and your fanatic fanboy stance:
" Today is a soft launch of high level details, with more architectural information and product details scheduled for January 7, 2013 at CES"
WUT!?? A "soft launch" ? No, this is a complete PAPER LAUNCH 100%.
See how that goes, with amd, they can announce and after endless years of screaming paper launch toward nVidia, it is casually announced as a "soft launch". Not a single freaking chip in sight, but it's all soft and lovely when amd does it...
Why weren't you praising the author for covering amd butt ?
" Granted, these are all preliminary results and we won't have hardware for a month or more I'd guess. We don't know power or other aspects of performance that are important either. "
Hey wonderful ! Not a chip in sight, but it's a "soft launch", landing so happily in the breast of amd fanboys...
You complain too much amd fanboy. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 20, 2012 - linkNote that "soft launch" and "paper launch" are nearly the same in my book, and don't forget that we've pretty much never had a hard launch of mobile GPUs. You don't buy mobile GPUs separate from a laptop, so when the hardware is launched and available (e.g. the new 8000M chips), that's when notebook manufacturers are going to start putting chips into laptops. It takes a few months of testing and validation before they start releasing those to the public, and thus we have a "soft launch". Reply
lmcd - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkThe whole point of the lower-end parts is to pair with Kaveri for Hybrid XF, in which case you want it to be on the same architecture (VLIW5 with VLIW4 not being a major issue). Meanwhile, Intel laptops will use high-end ones which *are* improvements or the same (such as 88xx or 89xx) or none at all (in OEM fashion).
So who cares. Reply
iMacmatician - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - link"Also I can't wait to see 8700M parts clocked as low as 8500M, as the graph suggests it will be possible. Disgusting."
Well, the 8700Ms may still have a performance lead, as (according to Hardware.fr) they have a 128-bit bus while the 8500M/8600Ms have a 64-bit bus. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkDear mr dude, to impart this is important. From your whining link:
" The 8000M series doesn't appear to boast any unique architectural refinements, though. AMD told us that, while these parts do feature new silicon, they're still based on the original iteration of the GCN architecture, just like the desktop Radeon HD 7000 series. "
LOL - Can you say rebrand ?
" Functionality like DirectX 11.1 support, PCI Express 3.0 connectivity, and AMD's Enduro technology are all included, but that's also true of the GCN-based 7000M-series parts. "
Say it again, amd fan.
I'll give amd this much - they spin and lie and spew so much CRAP - they have their little reporter minions spinning circles around themselves.... and thus immense confusion, many hopeful and decieved once again amd fanboys start their little hearth and happy fires burning - and the direct readership is left spinning in circles.... not certain what just occurred....
This is of course amd's plan, and it works wonderfully.... so of course sanity must be injected...
CUT DOWN REBRANDED GPU ( look for that on the laptop )
:-0) always gald to help. Reply
Zodiark1593 - Saturday, December 22, 2012 - linkYou do realize that Nvidia is equally guilty for botched naming schemes and rebranding as well?
Anyway, the arguing should stop. I thank Jarrod for sharing his opinions, and letting us know about the soft launch.
On both fronts, I find the naming scheme from both AMD and Nvidia equally convoluted for mobile GPUs. In my opinion, I think it's partially the names that help turn people off from PC gaming. Unless one is well versed beforehand, how is one supposed to know a Radeon 7800 chip curb stomps the 8500M. Certainly a salesman won't tell you which is what, and Joe Average would probably buy his aspiring gamer kid the laptop with an 8500M as it's a higher number.
Retailers should step up to the plate here and help the customer differentiate the numbers, but they seem more content on keeping things pretty cryptic as well. How I wish I owned my own retailer... Reply
CeriseCogburn - Tuesday, December 25, 2012 - linkDo you realize i was refuting mrdude's bs post ?
Do you realize this is an amd article ?
Frankly all the whining about rebranding makes me LOL.
We have all these pinheads who pretend they are techs or intelligent, but a few card numbers throw them into a hellspin they cannot handle
They aren't bright at all, so of course they always claim they are complaining to protect the "general consumer" they never met and never will meet. LOL
I've never seen such pathetic liars in my entire life.
Hows that for some reality ? You like that ?
Here's some more, the idiots always complaining no doubt go out half cocked or doped up and buy the wrong thing, near constantly.
There's reality. It's not the ephemeral consumer, it's their own stupid butt that's in a sling - they won't be able to remember much of anything once it's time to buy.
That's the real problem.
CaptainDoug - Monday, December 17, 2012 - linkSo I assume we don't know anything about about the power consumption yet right? Reply
iwod - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkI dont remember the code names anymore, Everyone makes them so hard to remember especially AMD. ( And i think that is part of the reason why they dont generate Hype well at all )
So the 7xxx Series on Desktop was based on GCN, which is AMD's first serious attempt to focus more on compute rather then graphics, and reason why Kelper were faster graphics wise.
The 7xxx on Mobile were basically a rebrand from 6xxx series. The new 8xxx Mobile is actually just GCN from Desktop. Which was actually released a year ago.
Please correct me if I am wrong because i am lost and that is what comprehend.
But then the confusion part is "second generation GCN architecture" . Wasn't the 7xxx series on Desktop a First Gen GCN? Reply
Ryan Smith - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkIt's a bit more complex than that.
The first, low-end 7000M parts were rebadges of last-generation 40nm VLIW5 GPUs (specifically Turks and Caicos). These were introduced right at the start of 2012 so that AMD would have a fresh product line for OEMs (who hate selling the same thing 2 years in a row). So the 7400M, 7500M, and 7600M were all rebadges.
A few months later AMD introduced mobile parts based on their new 28nm Southern Islands GPUs; the 7700M, 7800M, and 7900M. These existed alongside the earlier VLIW5 GPUs. So it is wrong to say that the 7000M was composed of just rebadges, as it contained some GCN parts.
The 8000M series will shape up similarly to the 7000M series. It will be a mix of 2012 GPUs (today's announcement) and 2013 GPUs that will be launched a couple of quarters from now.
As for the second generation comment, that appears to be AMD being generous to itself. We don't have the full details on the new GPU being used to make these low-end parts, but so far it appears to functionally be a very late member of Southern Islands rather than a SI-successor. Reply
iwod - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkThx, that makes much more sense and i record now there were indeed 28nm 7xxx mobile GPU... yes i forgot, and mixed up.
But unlike the previous announcement where 7400 and 7600 are using lower numbers for previous generation , and reserving the 7700 - 7900 for newer parts, this time around AMD actually uses it all the way up to 8800.
May be i have to wait for more details to come. But that makes today's announcement TOTALLY pointless, and far too early. They will disappoint ( again ) if they dont really a SI-successor, and i seriously doubt they do. Reply
Death666Angel - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - link"But, there's nothing inherently wrong with rebranding—AMD and NVIDIA have both been doing it for some time now."
Yes it is inherently wrong, because it is misleading the customer. Just because they have been doing it for a while does not make it better or acceptable. Reply
Mr Perfect - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkAgreed, rebadging is sleazy. They'll both keep doing it though. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkNO, AMD did it here.
It's amd whom has done it.
AMD is guilty.
Nice you fanboys cannot help blaming the competition when amd craps all over you. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, December 20, 2012 - linkOh, I cannot WAIT for the 7xx series, mobile or otherwise.
From Wikipedia:
2 The GeForce 605 (OEM) card is a rebranded GeForce 510.
3 The GeForce GT 610 card is a rebranded GeForce GT 520.
4 The GeForce GT 620 (OEM) card is a rebranded GeForce GT 520.
5 The GeForce GT 620 card is a rebranded GeForce GT 530.
6 The GeForce GT 630 (DDR3) card is a rebranded GeForce GT 440 (DDR3).
7 The GeForce GT 630 (GDDR5) card is a rebranded GeForce GT 540 (GDDR5).
8 The GeForce GT 640 (OEM) card is a rebranded GeForce GT 545 (DDR3).
9 The GeForce GT 645 (OEM) card is a rebranded GeForce GTX 560 SE.
Additionally, let's look at the 600M series.
610M - Fermi
620M - Fermi
625M - Fermi
630M - Fermi
635M - Fermi
640M - Kepler
645M - Kepler
650M - Kepler
660M - Kepler
670M - Fermi
670MX - Kepler
675M - Fermi
675MX - Kepler
680M - Kepler
680MX - Kepler
There's a subtle difference between AMD and NVIDIA here - AMD's higher end parts are all GCN whereas their lower parts are the previous mainstream generation. This has advantages (simplified product stack - you know what series you're getting above or below a certain point) and disadvantages (older tech at lower price points - less current tech or higher power usage). At no point are there two AMD products with the same number and different architectures, where there are two instances of this with NVIDIA - the 640M LE and the 640. Also of note is the 630 which is a rebranded 440 - TWO product lines back.
Let's face facts here - both companies bring their previous generation over to fill their current product lines. If you're IT literate enough, you won't get too confused. I just happen to think that it's a little clearer which series you're getting with AMD, but it's debatable whether you're getting better performance with comparable model numbers from one series to the next in some cases. NVIDIA does seem more consistent with offering better performance between, say, x60 products, though far more so on the desktop.
Buy what you want. Right now, comparing GCN to Kepler, NVIDIA has the more efficient gaming architecture, however they started a revolution in compute that they look to have backed away from. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Tuesday, December 25, 2012 - linkHey, since you're such a raged out amd fanboy, why didn't you provide us all with the list for amd ?
Like I said, it's the amd stupid paper launch, and you rager amd people cannot stop pointing the finger away - you act like political parties.
I'm not surprised you wasted your life collecting your nVidia hate post info there.
ROFL - fanboy exposure extraordinaire.
Why do you people do it ?
silverblue - Thursday, December 27, 2012 - link"Hey, since you're such a raged out amd fanboy, why didn't you provide us all with the list for amd ?"
Somewhere in the first pages of these comments, I believe I did actually say that the 7700 to 7900 desktop series were GCN with the other parts carried over from the 6000 series (albeit not the 6900 series - VLIW4 only reappeared in Trinity; I don't class APUs as belonging to either desktop or mobile ranges as they seem to transcend both, and we won't see it again with any luck). A little later, I mentioned that that the 4000 and 5000 series were self contained, BUT I also said that the 6770 was a 5770 with an updated UVD block. If it serves to help you, the 6350 was the 5450, albeit with numbering that actually makes sense unlike what Jarred is correctly pointing out here. It is wrong for AMD to compare a lower model number to a higher one and highlight how much faster the latter is so everybody has to wait to see what the real deal is.
I'll repeat myself for clarity as regards architecture carry overs - AMD's x600 and below lines on the desktop are generally the previous generation, and as for mobile, with the 7xxx series it's the same deal. With the 6xxx mobile series, it goes as follows:
63xxM - Evergreen
64xxM - NI
65xxM - Evergreen
66xxM - NI
67xxM - NI
68xxM - Evergreen
69xxM - NI
Now THAT particular series is messy and thankfully not likely to be repeated, however there's a very important point to make again - there's no instance of two separate architectures being employed for the same model number. The 7xxxM series is far cleaner, and happily the 8xxxM series doesn't back away from this as far as we can see. I'd be far happier with a fully new series but as we've seen from both companies, it just doesn't seem to happen. If yields have been as bad as we've been led to believe, I can't blame either firm for wanting to reuse silicon or chop off non-working parts. They both do it, and it's pointless arguing otherwise. The 7xx mobile series will most likely feature Kepler parts - I'm not going to rage about it because it makes sense, but what I WILL latch onto is if we end up with the GT 640 all over again. If AMD do it, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'll be all over them like a rash.
The G80 was a great card, you're spot on, but so was the RV770. It was the first architecture that ATi/AMD had done right in a good few years. Equally, Fermi mark 1 was unrefined and greedy, and the HD 2xxx series was a lame duck. There's an essence of balance here that I'm really hoping you latch onto, because you haven't done so in the past.
There's nothing "rager" about any of my posts. Why rage about something I cannot hope to change? If I'm going to make a purchase, I'll research it first so I don't get stung - how can this possibly be an issue? If I get something bad, that's my fault. If AMD brought out something really good, who here has the right to tell me I made a mistake? If I opt for a Kepler-based setup, do you really think I'm going to want to listen to "serves you right for buying rubbish in the past"?
Are AMD this big, evil corporation that you want everybody to believe? Yes, sometimes their product lines make no sense, and yes, sometimes their drivers are all over the place, but have you noticed that people don't usually come out and say "these drivers are top-notch" UNLESS it's in defence to comments such as "xxxx's drivers are buggy and slow"? It's a thankless job, I'll wager, and you have to deal with the complaints on a daily basis as opposed to basking in praise. A couple of years back, I needed a spare card in a hurry after my ATi 9800 Pro died (it'd been overclocked for 4 years with an Arctic Cooling solution), and I unpacked my old Ti4200-8x, only to find that its shader quality was through the floor with the latest drivers. I didn't rage about it because it was a very old card and I'm surprised that people make drivers that work for cards released more than 5 years ago (big kudos to NVIDIA for their LTS). I looked for a replacement and found a 1650 Pro which was a dog but more or less matched the 9800 Pro. Was it a good card? No way - 128-bit DDR2 memory, low pipe counts - but it did the job for 6 months. When I went to build my next PC, I looked at an Intel-NV combo, but neither had anything within my price range, so I ended up with an AMD setup. That XFX 4830 of mine has done remarkably well even though I couldn't overclock it despite its huge cooler - bad batch I guess. It was cheaper (over here in the UK) and faster than the competing 9800 GT in most things, and I simply wasn't interested in CUDA nor PhysX. I will upgrade to a new build eventually and as things stand, there'll be an Intel CPU in there, but I want to see how the 8xxx vs 7xx battle pans out before I make a purchase. Either company could pull out a real cracker.
What do you think would happen to the GPU market should AMD disappear? The enthusiast and higher end NV models would be a fair deal more expensive for a start. There might not even be a need for a yearly product cadence. Believe it or not, consumer choice is a very good thing, and I hope it's here to stay.
Now, there's something I'd like to ask you. Why did you spend your Christmas Day throwing out wild and untrue accusations? Reply
CeriseCogburn - Thursday, January 03, 2013 - linkYou spent your life doing nothing but obsessing, and lying about amd.
Now they're almost dead, and you still whine.
You know why I'll be deliriously happy when amd is dead and gone ?
You should - you CRYBABY amd losers.
You cannot even afford your crybaby cheap as dirt amd cards, and you're such cheap losers amd can't pay for itself, hasn't been able to for years.
So, let's say your insane whine comes true at one tenth your claimed disaster- GUESS WHAT ?
Plus, you're such a sour pussed hate filled amd fan, you won't even want one.
Man I can hardly wait till they QUADRUPLE in price. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkSee above for the actual rule applied.
This is an amd piece, so it must be stated that it is not inherently wrong, and that of course nVidia does it, has been doing, does it, did it, and so forth.
If it was an nVidia piece as in the years past, the raging complaint would be over the top, and no mention of amd doing it would be in the article.
Usually "the infamous G80" would be cited several times and the endless spewing complaint would get a whole couple of paragraphs or a page and several rementions throughout.
But this is amd the dirty evil vile company now, so it's not inherently wrong.
Now you know the rules. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 20, 2012 - linkFor all your vitriol against the AMD fans, you're even worse on the NVIDIA side. We've called out both companies for rebranding for years, and we'll continue to do so. I guess I can feel I did my job well when you're here implying I somehow sugar-coated this story to make AMD look good while MrDude is complaining that I missed an amazing announcement. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Tuesday, December 25, 2012 - linkYou do a fine job, I have zero complaints with you. You work under certain pressures and realities. You have lots of work in a hectic schedule and it's not easy doing loads of benchmarks or coming up with something that has too keep certain powerful parties above in decent shape.
No complaints with you, you're doing your job.
I'm just doing my job helping the little posting amd fanboys face reality, something they don't want to ever do, and looks like soon won't ever have to if amd falls over and croaks. Reply
just4U - Friday, December 28, 2012 - linkWhat makes you think their amd fanboys? Most of us gave up complaing about rebranding after the venerable 8800 went thru so many name changes.. The thing for reviewers to do is make note of it in their reviews and right now ... this isn't a review and little is known.. just alot guess work. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Thursday, January 03, 2013 - linkWhat proof do you have you think at all ?
The G80 and it's derivatives we're the greatest set of gaming cards for the entire world community of ALL TIME.
They brought cards in at every price point and a hundred different combinations.
They breathed LIFE into computer gaming.
The amd fanboys, the sour little turds that they are, did nothing but complain.
They deserve every retort and rebuttal they get, and the YEARS of archives here prove EXACTLY whom they are.
Thanks for not being sentient. Reply
Gigaplex - Saturday, December 29, 2012 - linkYou need to step it down a notch. Not everyone claiming NVIDIA abuses the rebranding worse than AMD is an AMD fanboy. I wouldn't be caught dead with a current generation discrete AMD mobile graphics chip as NVIDIA currently provides a better user experience if you need discrete graphics. However, I stand by the claims of others that NVIDIA has an especially bad rebrand track record. What chip is the desktop 640 based on? There's multiple versions that come in both Fermi and Kepler.
Personally I'd just stick with Intel graphics or AMD Fusion as they're just about as fast if not faster than a fair amount of the discrete chips the OEMs throw in there as a marketing tick box even though there's no benefit to them. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Thursday, January 03, 2013 - linkI already know all of them.
There are years of archives here bucko. Reply
transphasic - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkSince most of us here on the site/forum are gamers to any level or degree, all I/we care about with this new announcement, is just HOW on Earth AMD is going to compete with Nvidia on the high-end gaming GPU's, if they at all can at this point on, due to the latest Enduro fiasco that we all as unfortunate AMD customers can attest to. From what I am seeing within this announcement, is that there is no substantial improvements coming from AMD in terms of improved gaming (hint: Enduro side-stepping), and that Nvidia is still the way to go for 2013 and beyond.
As one who is well-acquainted personally with the Enduro fiasco, I am now more than ever looking at swapping out my 7970m and going back to Nvidia in 2013.
As the old saying goes- "Once burned twice shy..." Reply
CeriseCogburn - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkThe real question is how you were stupid enough to get burned in the 1st place.
Are you proud of the amd PR brain changed fanboys who lied you into it ? Reply
bennyg - Tuesday, December 18, 2012 - linkThis looks like the I-cant-believe-it's-not-a-rebrand-rebrand. Shift the specs slightly, tweak the die/process to reduce cost/increase yield, fix a couple of bugs, maybe add a couple of nothing 'features', maybe add enough clockspeed to actually differentiate the old from the new on a bar graph; enough to let Marketing Divison get away with calling it "New"... actually, kind of exactly like the car industry does.
Nvidia did it with their 8xxx series, all the way through 9xxx desktop and mobile, then as no GT200 part trickled down to mobile, that continued with the odd GT1xxM, the whole 2xxM series, then a few repeated and tweaked parts in the 3xxM. The GTX260M I had in my last laptop was basically a 55nm version of a desktop 9800 GTX.
TL;DR It's all just the same old game just the players shift their tactics slightly re media dealings Reply
Jedi2155 - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkLooks like the title of the 2nd Table for the 7700M/7800M parts still has the 8800 series names. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, December 19, 2012 - linkFixed, thanks! Reply
aguilpa1 - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkYes I yawned and I meant it. Reply
ForeverAlone - Sunday, December 23, 2012 - linkThe moment I saw "8500" I had traumatic flashbacks to my shitty 8500GT. Reply
tuxRoller - Saturday, December 29, 2012 - linkBattery life varies tremendously based on distro, hardware support, and customization.
For the most part you should expect excellent battery life from think pads as those are heavily used by developers.
As for game performance, Gabe posted fairly recently about how surprised they were about Ubuntu posting higher fps than Windows (even after using the ogl drivers on windows). I wouldnt generalize from that but I wouldn't generalize in the other direction either. Reply