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ASUS F2A85-V Pro Review: A Look at FM2 with A85Xby Ian Cutress on 10/10/2012 11:20 AM EST
- Posted in
- Motherboards
- Asus
- Trinity
66 Comments
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andykins - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkA 2500k fits into socket 1155, not 1156 - the latter is Nehalem I believe? Reply
Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkLikewise, the features chart on the first page lists PCIe 3.0 slots...Trinity has PCIe 2.0... Reply
IanCutress - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkApologies - first one was a brain fart, second was carry over. Tables like that I have to write in HTML (via excel) then copy paste in. Somehow got a weird mishmash of the last review and the new one.
Ian Reply
Kevin G - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkFirst page, second paragraph:
"Thus if I purchase an i7-3960X today, I know that it will fit into Socket 2011 based motherboards - similarly with the i5-2500K, it will fit into Socket 1156 motherboards. "
The i5-2500K fits into socket 1155. Reply
Anonymous Blowhard - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - link> This full sized ATX board is aiming for the enthusiast in the Trinity space
> enthusiast in the Trinity space
> enthusiast
> Trinity
Nope Reply
djshortsleeve - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkWell, AMD fanboi enthusiast maybe Reply
just4U - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkI am not AMD fanboi but I am a fan of new computer hardware. As such I tend to grab some of the latest stuff. The thing about AMD boards (that I've noticed) is to get something comparable from Intel your usually looking at 30-50 more. Their boards are feature rich at a lower premium.
This board in particular, (and Gigabyte's alternative) is over priced. I'd say by 20 bucks. But it's new hardware, slight price premium.. I expect in coming months this board will be 110-120 and the CPU it's paired with will drop to in and around the same price. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Saturday, October 13, 2012 - linkLOL - caught again, and still in public denial.
The gaming benchmark page is a shame to the human race and all reporters worldwide, but that's how amd corpo pig pressure rolls. Reply
medi01 - Sunday, October 14, 2012 - linkDo you at least get payed by Intel?
Utterly stupid to post so much shit for them for free... Reply
darcotech - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkI totally agree.
I consider myself more leaning toward AMD,but Trinity has no place in enthusiast world.
It was made as low to medium all-in-one (cheap) solution and as such, it works great.
Why would anyone put mid-high end GPU with trinity is beyond my imagination.
Even if you say you start with Trinity, then add G-card doesn't hold the true, because your CPU performance will suffer.Better start with strong CPU (probably Intel) and basic graphics card, and then later add something much stronger.At the end,you will have strong system.
150USD for Trinity oriented motherboard is not overkill.It is plain stupid. Reply
medi01 - Sunday, October 14, 2012 - linkWhat kind of enthusiasts need CPU more than GPU? Reply
Urizane - Monday, October 15, 2012 - link'Enthusiast' is not exactly equal to 'Gamer'. Gamers don't really need a ton of CPU capability. Enthusiasts may have many CPU bound interests. Reply
dsrnet - Monday, April 15, 2013 - linkhi,
What is the best 4 core processor ( CPU ) ,stating its clock speed,that it supports? ( F2A85-V PRO mother board ), please let me know.
Aj Reply
tim851 - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkHehe, my thoughts exactly. I don't hate AMD and wish them a lot of success - primarily for my own sake - but no enthusiast is thinking about Trinity. Reply
zappb - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkIan, What do you think about pairing a low end FM2 processor with a micro ATX version of an A85 or A75 board
Benefits I can see for small office machine that has standard admin workloads - (to compete with the recent budget systems buyer guide say with the pentium G530 recommendation).
Buy going with the Trinity you get -
lower idle power consumption and mostly this builds will run word-excel etc..., so lower TCO
Ability to run 2 monitors and keep lowish power (no need for new GFX) also better GFX in general
Ability to upgrade / more flexibility - with one more processor release arriving for FM2 next year and better chipset options.
Can run encryption / AES - ok not a great processor choice in general but as more small firms realise how important security is, it could be as simple as running 7zip 256 Bit encryption on a few files before emailing them - the processor is not handicapped and Trinity should buy and sell the Pentium in speed.
So take an AMD A4-5300 - 65 USD, and some A85 micro atx variant for say 70 USDand pair it will an Samsung 830/840/ Intel 330128 GB SSD I would suggest this might be a better long term platform than the Intel/G530 combo recommended in the value system buyers guide.
What's the cost? An Extra 40 USD on the low end intel? Reply
just4U - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkWould work fine I'd expect.. but without hands on testing of a lower end FM2 part .. I'd be rather curious about it's overall performance.. Looking at bench results the A10 5800K is in and around 1156 I5 performance (slightly lower on single thread) but very comparable to Quad9X C2D stuff.. which is decent overall with all the additions that come with future tech and ofcourse the graphics.
I rather like the 5800/A85X combo myself but it should be about $40 bucks cheaper then it currently is. Still.. not having a problem with it on our secondary system (a 2700K build for the main..) It's certainly fast enough. Reply
just4U - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkAlso, one of the things I've seen reviewers mention is .. these new Trinity based setups could make quite the showing in the office or in the living room. I plan on setting up a low cost option for our living room as more selections in boards start to come out..
.. I also like the fact that the system stays cool.. a major complaint of mine with the Ivy Bridge cpu's that rarely gets even a mention. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Saturday, October 13, 2012 - linkLOL - it's all too clear, and has been for a very long time. AMD fanboy Reply
zappb - Saturday, October 13, 2012 - linkThroughout the review, Ian was looking for a reason to recommend why someone would buy FM2.
In the context of Zach's excellent value buyer's guide here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6182/fall-budget-sys...
In that article Zach recommends a Intel Celeron G530 which is insanely cheap at USD 30 but doesn't have some of the instruction sets that AMD don't cut out from cheaper models.
With the motherboard there's about 100 dollars to play with for CPU and Mobo. A75X + low end FM2 - well there just might be room for the right priced FM 2 setup - which might even also be lower power and more flexible.
I'm shortly building 4 machines in our office to replace the final load of XP machines (Win7/Office 2010). It's an accounting office and users tend to use alot of excel and quickbooks. Nothing too taxing on the client side. It will be a tough decision between Intel and AMD. Reply
jabber - Monday, October 15, 2012 - linkTrinity is more than enough for most office workloads.
I rolled out a load of dual core Atom boxes for office use between 2010-2011.
Yeah dual core Atoms. Quite pathetic in comparison to Trinity but no complaints, I regularly ask the staff how they are getting on with them and they all still love them.
Folks here are just a little too autistic to see that not everyone works (well for some here I bet the term work is an alien concept in the truest sense) like they do or sees the world in such benchmark obsessed terms.
Most folks have been sorted CPU wise for office work since 2005/6. The stuff most of us play with here is for rich kids toys. Reply
zappb - Sunday, November 04, 2012 - linkI just build 3 of these office machines (prices in euros before VAT / sales tax)
Asrock FM2A75M - DGS - 45
Fractal Core 1000 - 30
Intel 330 120 GB ssd - 75
Mushkin 4GB ddr3 -1600- 13
Be quiet pure power L7 300w - 32
Win8 pro oem (w/Start8)a 110
Office 2010 pro 100
Hardware comes to €245, and if I could have sourced the A4-5300, would have knocked another 15 off that. Amd will be pricing the entry level FM2 stuff really agressively in Jan 2013 onwards, so you could probably pick up the A4-5300 for 30 euro.
WEI scores are: Processor: 6.3, Memory: 5.9, Graphics: 4.7, Gaming Graphics: 6.3, primary hard disk, 8.1.
Will test power consumption shortly, but just seeing the load on the CPU with excel, word, and chrome with 5 browser windows open, it hovers around 1- 4%, so meaning for these light usage cases, it might be cheaper to run than the intel options (that would be a real turn up for the books). Reply
crimson117 - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkI'm having trouble parsing this sentence...
> From my perspective, a storage system the RAID 5 that the A85X chipset supports across the eight SATA 6 Gbps ports is golden where Trinity is concerned. Reply
KineticHummus - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkit means using trinity in a storage system/home server is great because it natively supports raid 5 across all 8 sata3 ports, which intel can not do. Reply
Anonymous Blowhard - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkExcept that anyone running an 8-drive RAID5 with large, slow, consumer off the shelf SATA drives is either uninformed or a moron.
Odds on getting an unrecoverable read error with large (1TB+) drives during a RAID5 rebuild are incredibly high; that's why enterprise SANs are using things like 450GB/600GB SAS drives now, and those have a failure rate an order of magnitude lower than consumer grade SATA.
Home servers should be using RAID1, 10, Z, Z2 - or just none at all. Whatever you use, doing proper backups (which RAID is not) is critical if you care about your data. DVDs I've ripped? I can get those again. Pictures of my son's first birthday? Backed up in triplicate, multiple offsite, and cloud stored.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/why-raid-5-stops... Reply
ven1ger - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkFirst of if you're calling someone a moron, maybe you should look in the mirror.
The article that you linked was written back in 2007, and if you read some of the comments, many of the comments thought it was much ado about nothing.
Maybe you should check out what current cloud based backup companies look like, here's an example that I was just reading about a couple of days ago.
Very interesting story, commercial cloud based storage company that uses consumer SATA drives. They even have open-sourced hardware design(s) available for their PODs that anyone can use to create their own muti-drive backup system, and which several others have created, if you are so inclined that way.
I am no way involved with Backblaze, just was an interesting story piece that I ran across and their tale of harvesting consumer grade 3TB SATA drives in the aftermath of the Thailand flooding. Reply
Anonymous Blowhard - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkAd hominem ignored.
The article was correct then and even more now. As data density has increased, reliability has not kept pace.
Using BackBlaze, or most any "cloud backup provider" as a reference for pro-RAID-5 is a bad idea. Cloud storage providers create their redundancy at the system level. Reliability, availability, and operational efficiencies are all hugely increased by treating the entire system as an FRU. It's cheaper for them to just wait for there to be enough downed pods to justify "Okay, let's roll into the DC, pull out a dozen systems, and slap in new ones." They don't have the time or concern to troubleshoot individual drive failures.
(Also, BackBlaze uses RAID-6.)
So again, if you're using RAID-5 with big, slow, error-prone drives; please stop doing that if you care about your data. Reply
Memristor - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkWhat version of the AHCI, RAID and USB 3.0 BIOS is on this new board? It would be very helpful if you could include the version of these BIOS's in your board reviews. Since it is very easy to updated the firmware of these components outside of a regular motherboard BIOS update it can be very helpful to increase performance and other issues that arise especially with RAID configurations and newer SSD drives. Reply
djshortsleeve - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkIan, glad you mentioned hysteresis. I dont understand why they dont incorporate this control? Its fairly simple as long as a target temperature is defined. Reply
goinginstyle - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - link"This could be an error on the part of OCCT.." If you do not know what the problem is then why mention it in the review as a performance concern. Either OCCT is updated to work with Trinity or more than likely it is not but find out before you state it. As to DPC latency, is it really a EFI problem or a platform problem as Llano is not much better. Reply
Hardcore69 - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkWhy bother? An Ivy Bridge i3 is 55w and is close to the equivalent except for the GPU, less than a fart's difference CPU wise. Compared to a hot 100w CPU, if you don't game, this isn't worth bothering with. At all for a standard office box. As for the mobo, I'd prefer a gruntier CPU than fancy useless heatpipes. Reply
just4U - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkHave you used ivy bridge or even set up any? Those puppies get quite warm and temperatures are all over the place. Hell I opted for a 2700K just because of that and prices were comparable. Using the 5800 (been working with it a few days now) it runs cool rarely going over 35C and usually staying in the low 20s in my 10 year old lian-li case (/w 3 80mm fans.. doesn't support bigger ones) Reply
CeriseCogburn - Saturday, October 13, 2012 - linkamd fanboy fails again. It's getting irritating with your idiocy and lies and pretense as if you know something. You know exactly nothing.
" In case of single-threaded load processors with different microarchitectures demonstrate dramatically different levels of power consumption. And here we have every right to state that Ivy Bridge microarchitecture is the most energy-efficient among all testing participants. Core i3 manufactured with 22 nm process do win the promised 8-10 W of power from their predecessors and demonstrate overwhelming advantage over the competitor's offerings. "
No doubt that Core i3 processors from the new 3000 series will make the most energy-efficient systems. Their power consumption and therefore heat dissipation are significantly lower than by all other platforms, and their advantages over the systems with dual-core Sandy Bridge processors is between 10 and 20 W. This makes Core i3 with Ivy Bridge microarchitecture a perfect choice for compact and energy-efficient systems. And, by the way, for these particular systems Intel has special energy-efficient Core i3 CPU modifications with 35 W TDP instead of 55 W.
LOL - the amd fanboy spews his lies, and gets owned, again, after insulting the poster WHO IS CORRECT.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-... Reply
aryonoco - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkAt a few points in the article, Ian mentions that the chipset supports RAID5 and might therefore be a good candidate for a SOHO NAS system. My question is, does anyone who builds a SOHO NAS system actually use these integrated hardware RAIDs?
Sure, nothing beats a good and proper RAID controller, but those cost upward of $300 and from experience, these integrated RAID controllers barely perform well. They are generally much slower than software RAID, and tougher to recover from failures. Nearly everyone I know who has built their own NAS goes for software RAID, and any modern OS has better software RAID than these chipsets generally provide.
The other reason not to consider Trinity for a NAS build is that power consumption is generally a major factor in a device that's 24/7 on, and Ivy Bridge beats Trinity in that regards hands down. Also, Trinity's main advantage over Ivi Bridge, that of a better GPU, is of no use in a NAS.
So, I ask again, is Trinity actually such a good choice for a NAS build? I see a place for it in a HTPC build, but pretty much in nothing else. Reply
zappb - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkTrinity has a lower idle power consumption - depending on the usage scenario, it should be cheaper to run than the ivy bridge in a NAS Reply
solarisking - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkAre you guys still working on an iPhone 5 review? It's been weeks!!! Reply
Zink - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkIf they still don't have that done, how are they going to keep up with all of the Windows releases set to hit in 2 weeks? Flagship Windows phones and tablets probably deserve just as much attention as the iPhone and there are releases covering the whole value spectrum. I hope the iPad Mini doesn't get some 20 page review while windows tablets get the standard windows laptop type review. Reply
Snotling - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkThere won't be an iPad mini... Unless Apple has lost its sense of direction. (which all things considered might be the case) Reply
Phiro69 - Wednesday, October 10, 2012 - linkIan mentions a few times the motherboard - at $140 - appears overpriced for the performance & such. And yes, this Trinity sku is only somewhat comparable to an i3. But isn't the point of Trinity + FM2 to be somewhat future-insulated? As in, drop in another FM2 sku 6-12 months from now and watch your CPU & GPU performance skyrocket? Didn't AMD say FM2 is going to be around for the this gen and the next gen of processors?
You might still have to be abit of an AMD fan boy to buy this combo now, but it would make a solid work PC and/or light gaming PC and a year from now, I bet $125 would drop in a huge boost in performance, without having to replace the rest of your system. Reply
Urizane - Monday, October 15, 2012 - link"But isn't the point of Trinity + FM2 to be somewhat future-insulated?"
This depends on whether FM2 fades as quickly as FM1 and the length of time implied by 'somewhat'. Perhaps FM1 was around for 'somewhat' of a long time...maybe. Reply
Mugur - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkHTPC - checked.
Cheap file-server (8 x SATA 3 ports is great - I wonder whether mATX boards will have all 8) - checked.
Home Office / light gaming - checked. Reply
Mugur - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkFile server - unchecked. Can't seem to find any board with 8 SATA, all are 7 + 1 eSATA... :-( Reply
Medallish - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkYou make it sound A85X boards are somehow below average when it comes to number of ports, 7 ports is more than any Z77 or A75 based boards, if you have a fileserver that needs all 8 ports, then I'd suggest you buy a dedicated Sata controller for better performance anyway. Reply
Medallish - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkAlso, Gigabyte boards with A85X doesn't have E-sata and therefore has all 8 Sata ports available. Reply
Mugur - Friday, October 12, 2012 - linkGigabyte has 2 A85x boards. UP4 has 7 + 1. Only D3H has 8 and I haven't seen it in stock in my country... But this means there is hope.
I have now an Asus with 850SB with 6 SATA 3 + PCIe card with 2 more. Unfortunately I haven't seen any mATX with 8 SATA so far. Reply
hechacker1 - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkBut it's so easy to get a cheap sata card without RAID support and just use software raid (freenas comes to mind).
Why deal with buggy controllers anyway. Modern software raid is easily configurable and very fault tolerant, and you can even do things like SSD caching at the front end.
I do intend to build a NAS / server, and it's either Trinity or an i3. Reply
Mugur - Friday, October 12, 2012 - linkI will try with Windows Server 2012 and Storage Spaces myself. I need Windows for my server at home. Hopefully it can make a logical drive with parity from different types of physical drives... or I got it all wrong. :-) Reply
cjs150 - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkHTPC - unchecked
TDP is way too high. That means significant active cooling, that means noise.
Do not mind having one slow fan in an HTPC but not more.
AMd need to have a sub 45W part on an FM2 board for it to be good for an HTPC. Do that at reasonable cost and AMD would clean up as nearest equivalent for intel is the i7-3770T which is expensive Reply
Medallish - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkHTPC - Rechecked
TDP is acceptable on both A10, 5700 and 5800 65W and even 100W can be cooled passively with the right HTPC case(Streacom FC5-OD). You can also buy a Jetway Mini ITX FS1r2 board that will work with A10-4600(35W TDP). If Mobile sockets is too exotic for you, it should take no time to adjust the A10 of any kind really, ,to run a 3GHz and get the tdp below 45W, but eally since when was 65W too much for one slow fan?
The Streacom case is btw. confirmed, I'm using it to cool down my current A8-3870k, works perfectly. Reply
cjs150 - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkStreamcom FC5 specs are for a maximum of 65W TDP so 100W is outside of their envelope. 65W TDP will work fine, just as long as the room is not too warm. So I guess your A8-3870 is either under-clocked or currently in the fridge!!
For an HTPC, it needs to play HD material smoothly, rip HD content quickly and I assume play some games at reasonable speed but nothing too taxing.
i7-3770T is way over-powered (and expensive) for that - and not as cool as it should be because intel use poor thermal paste on the IHS. AMD should therefore clean up this market. I prefer to have a CPU that is under the case thermal envelope to allow for margin for error.
So if it works for you (and I really like the Streamcom case) great, but for me AMD need to get a 22 nm part out with a much lower thermal envelope Reply
butdoesitwork - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - link1. Normally when a reviewer sees something anomalous he contacts the manufacturer prior to posting the review. Has there been any follow up with ASUS on the DPC latency spikes? Is a BIOS fix actually forthcoming? It's really hard to just leave it at "this would be slightly worrying for audio work"!
2. The USB and SATA charts are nearly pointless. You're comparing a new AMD chipset against umpteen Intel motherboards. That's reasonable, but how does this new A85X chipset fare against older AMD 9xx chipsets? Is this new chipset an improvement? And if it isn't better, do they have an explanation why? And wouldn't that be another thing to ask ASUS about?
3. Speaking of older chipsets, why does the Sabretooth only make a cameo?
The X264 graphs are just silly! I thought we wanted a comparison between Thuban and Llano here, not just umpteen Core i7s! You did say "For AMD, this means we can compare the new Piledriver modules to Llano with its Stars cores, Phenom II and Thuban, and Zambezi with Bulldozer."
4. With all these gobbledygook-named motherboards floating around, it sure would be nice if the "gaming benchmarks" graphs also denoted which (admittedly also gobbledygook-named) CPU was paired with each one. Like the "computation benchmarks" did. It would simplify validating statements like "Portal 2 seems to enjoy the GPU power, and CPU power does not matter as much.".
5. On Dirt 3 "In the case of Trinity, the lack of grunt by the CPU does give it a lower result than the rest of our testing."
Be that as it may, where does it stand compared with the Core i3? Thuban? Llano?
Trinity isn't even meant to (and certainly can't) compete with Core i7, so why are these graphs so dominated by them? I wouldn't expect radical fluctuations between the Intel chipset boards. Are you looking for motherboard-influenced performance quirks? If so, shouldn't you also be comparing multiple A85X motherboards?
6. Above ALL else, this is a new chipset. Accordingly, have you done any stability and reliability testing? Speed is nice, but what good is it if the new fangled SATA3 and USB3 ports exhibit device compatibility issues or data corruption? (Have you done a "diff" of your files in Linux? Or noted any bus reset errors in Linux logfiles? You know...the kinds of things Windows never tells you?) Reply
IanCutress - Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - link1) Interestingly enough it is not a reviewers job to debug. I do correlate my results to the manufacturers, but I test on the latest publicly available BIOS at the time of testing. If I sat around waiting for 'the next BIOS' then each review would take 3x as long and I couldn't feed my family. Sorry to disappoint. (Also, not all reviewers are masculine as per your pronoun usage.)
2) The USB 3.0 and SATA 6 Gbps are both native on Intel and AMD unless specified otherwise. I believe it is an appropriate comparison. People deciding to upgrade will want a comparison between what is available now in the market, not what was on the market. There is scope for editorials to look at how certain dynamics have changed over the years, but also tests change. My old data for 9xx chipsets is not relevant here.
3) Again, tests change over time in order to correlate with newer hardware and test the capabilities. If you have the spare time to dig out the hardware and run the newer tests, that's up to you. The other 14 motherboards I have in needed to be tested get priority here otherwise they become irrelevant. I would love to have infinite hardware and infinite time to do the comparisons, but that is not a logistical possibility.
4) Each chipset is tested against a single CPU. P67/Z68 was i5-2500K, X79 was i7-3960X, FM1 was A6-3650, FM2 was A10-5800K.
5) My apologies, next time I'll forgo the initial release review because it's the only board in my hand before release and wait a few months until I have six reviewed then post them at once when they become a little irrelevant.
6) Have you? Have you got time to do stability testing? What about testing it at high altitude, or in the Sahara?
If you believe there are things missing from the review, helpfully suggest additions for future consideration. My email is through my name on the review. Reply
brookheather - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkTypo - "there is few reasons to jump on board to Trinity". Reply
Mugur - Friday, October 12, 2012 - linkWell, she was hot back in the first Matrix days... :-) Reply
silverblue - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - link"With that being said, it is clear that video conversion is an INT process and all four of the A10-5800K INT units are being used"
Are they, though? If so, it's a bit disappointing. Are all four threads maxed out in Task Manager? It'd be interesting to see a 4C/4T Intel processor thrown in there (2500K seems a perfect candidate) as well.
From looking at this, it should mean that an identically clocked Piledriver (83xx) CPU wouldn't be too far behind the 3770K in this one test. It does also mean, unfortunately, that even with linear performance scaling, even the top Piledriver CPU won't dethrone Thuban in the 3DPM MP test. Reply
Soulnibbler - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkWhat does is this line in the performance section supposed to mean?
From a practical standpoint, the lack of floating point units in the CPU gives cause for concern as not everyone codes in hex or integer style (my own personal software all uses FP – INT would be confusing to code for me for negligible gain on most architectures).
I'm assuming you are referring to the bulldozer/steamroller architecture with a shared FPU unit per pair of integer units. On first reading it implies (and this implication is uncontested by the bizarre contents of of the following parentheses) that there is no floating point unit on the chip. That is patently wrong as there is a rather nice FPU shared between every two integer cores.
The other interpretation is that you think it needs MORE than half an FPU per core. That is an arguable point, but then the strange text in the parentheses paints you as someone who needs much more study towards what actually happens in a program. So much of your normal computing occurs in integer space. There isn't really any sort of program I can easily think of where you don't use integer operations (even memory mapping is integer) many times in order to prepare to do a single FP operation. The counter examples are all pretty much graphics examples where we want to work on vectors. The Trinity FPU has a nice vector processor too. If you break down and look at the machine code that any of your programs use you will find that an overwhelming (much greater than 66%) of that code is integer code.
Crying OH NOES 1/2 A FPU, is not good reporting. YES the AMD chips lag the Intel chips, YES the design parameters are different. The unfounded supposition that performance difference are due to that specific portion of the architectural choice is frankly bad journalism. If you want to make claims like that you have to point to a set of benchmarks that demonstrate clearly that the 1/2 FPUs are to blame. I doubt this is the case as most analysis that I've seen points to larger memory subsystem problems as a much bigger factor. Reply
IanCutress - Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - linkIf your supposition is true, then the A10-5800K should not experienced as much of a decrease against the competition as it did do in the results.
My 3DPM results clear my position on the matter:
"In the single threaded test, a lot of conclusions can be drawn from the comparison of AMD architectures. Direct comparison of Piledriver to Bulldozer (A10-5800K to FX-8150) gives a boost in single core performance of 7%, however comparing the old Stars cores of the A8-3850 at 2.9 GHz is roughly the same as the new Piledriver core at 4.2 GHz. So even with a 1.3 GHz advantage, Piledriver is only as good as Stars and less efficient in floating point results. If we compare Piledriver to Thuban, i.e. A10-5800K to X6 1100T, the Piledriver core gets stomped on by a good 25% performance. I find this quite staggering – most of the code I ever encountered as a computational chemist was floating point based, dealing with single and double precision on a regular basis. On this result, I would steer clear of Piledriver.
The multithreaded version of 3DPM is slightly tougher to analyze. Due to the FP nature of the program, the A10-5800K is essentially a 2 core FPU processor, whereas all the other comparative AMD processors have either 4 or 6 FPUs to play with. What is perhaps worth considering is that the Bulldozer processor with 4 modules scores 326.32, whereas the Piledriver processor with only 2 modules scores 203.06, which is more than half. This would mean that the Piledriver core actually achieves 20% better performance at the same frequency, despite our ST test giving Piledriver only a 7% increase. Part of this could be put down to the architecture improvements – improved scheduling for heavily threaded loads, one of the downfalls of Bulldozer but was improved in Piledriver could be the reason here."
My basis for my comments is from a computational complexity standpoint. Sure memory mapping may be an int process, but if I only do it at the beginning and end of a matrix transformation (and thereby having a total processing time less than 0.1% of the program) then it becomes insignificant.
What AMD have done is project that applications in the future which require heavy computational throughput will be driven by INT ops. The big software vendors can do this, making video conversion and ray tracing type applications enhanced by use of INT ops. But for the non-CompSci scientist who relies more on readable code but also wants a speed increase, then going all out on the INT side may not be possible, and we get limited performance due to the scheduling and the lack of pure grunt due to the gutted APU. It's a design choice AMD have to live with, and I'm not the only one who is not entirely in favor of it. Reply
Scootiep7 - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkOk, I'm trying not to break down and just buy a Llano for my HTPC build, but does anybody know how much longer it'll be till I can get some nice options for a mini-ITX such as http://news.softpedia.com/news/MSI-Presents-FM2-A7... and the 5700k? What's the holdup on these! Reply
groundhogdaze - Thursday, October 11, 2012 - linkAMD should play to their strengths which is an affordable CPU with a relatively fast integrated GPU. That means focusing a small form factor systems such as AIO, ITX, HTPC class systems, however, I am surprised and disappointed at the relative lack of options when it comes to ITX FMx motherboards. I sold my AMD stock when I concluded they had their strategy wrong. Most folks who want to use a full sized case would also want to use a dedicated GPU, otherwise, what's the point of having a full sized case? Wrong marketing choice.
Unless AMD can improve their heat/power ratings, the Intel G530 makes better sense as a NAS solution as it is dirt cheap and uses less power than its advertised 65w TDP while running circles around the Atom class processors. I hope AMD is reading the forums and best luck to them. Reply
Mugur - Friday, October 12, 2012 - linkYou are right. Full ATX and Trinity makes little sense. mATX and mini ITX with 8 SATA3 and integrated graphics should be the focus. Full ATX in fact makes little sense today, anyway... :-)
If you want more than a NAS from a server, the best 65W Trinity part should be nice. I have a Phenom II X2 rated 80W in my HTPC and an Athlon II X4 (95W) in my server at home. Neither of them comes even closer to their rated TDP, according to the "green" ICs and software of the motherboards (Gigabyte and Asus). Reply
silverblue - Friday, October 12, 2012 - linkAMD seems to volt their processors conservatively, so K10Stat (or other utilities) or using the BIOS to reduce the voltage may prove useful in reducing power consumption noticably without affecting performance more than a couple of percent.
Toms ran an article on this as regards Trinity, and have done so with various AMD models in the past:
Saving 14W for a tiny performance deficit is more than acceptable in my eyes.
I undervolted my Phenom II X3 710 as per the following article:
(though I needed to raise voltages by 0.025v to keep it 100% stable in my case) Reply
cjs150 - Friday, October 12, 2012 - linkExcept for the complete power users I am not sure full ATX makes sense for the vast majority of people no matter what CPU you use.
mAtx has room for 4 PCI-E/PCI slots. even if the GPU takes up 2 slots what do people use the rest for? Sound card, TV tuner then what? [If any one says RAID card - why do you need a discrete GPU for what is effectively a NAS]
Having just built an HTPC using a mini-ITX board it is remarkable what power you can have on tap with just one PCI-E slot Reply
groundhogdaze - Saturday, October 13, 2012 - linkYea, full ATX is making less and less sense these days. My main system is full sized but most of the systems I own are ITX or smaller. I just slapped together a HTPC using a Cooler Elite120 ITX case, an old GTX-560ti video card,16gb of RAM and an i3-2100 CPU so it double duties as a Home Gaming Theater as well. It is awesome how much power one can squeeze into a small system these days. Reply
vkristof - Saturday, October 13, 2012 - linkI'd have some interest in the AMD combo if it could drive 3 displays.
If it can, what are the limitations? Reply
Teknobug - Monday, October 15, 2012 - linkLooks like I'm going with the i5 3570K and P8Z77 board combo this time around and I've been a long time AMD user since the late 90's, I was highly interested in the A10 5800K but the benchmarks look ridiculous, especially the gaming benchmarks. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Monday, October 15, 2012 - link"On AMD the results are better, making the GPU the limiting factor." Please find this sentence in your article and review it for possible errors. After all, how can anything be better on AMD? lol. Seriously I think you meant intel. Reply
markcomp - Sunday, March 24, 2013 - linkOK, a lot of this is right on the edge of my understanding, and as I was about to put together another PC for my kids, the intro on board specs, chipset etc has just got me a bit confused.
I was not looking at a Trinity as the budget won't stretch that far, but had come up with the following (actually the boys 13 and 15 did most of the research):
Will they work well together, and is there a better combination for the price (or less).
Sadly over here in The UK, we can't get the deals like you folks across the big pond and this lot comes to £450 ($685):
Processor £100
Mobo and graphics card £150 each approximately
AMD Piledriver FX-6 Six Core 6300 Black Edition 3.50GHz (Socket AM3+) Processor
Asus Sabertooth 990FX AMD 990FX (Socket AM3+) DDR3 Motherboard
(how is this different from the R2.0 version)
One of the following:
Sapphire HD 7850 2048MB GDDR5 PCI-Express Graphics Card
Sapphire HD 7850 OC Edition 2GB Dual DVI HDMI DisplayPort PCI-E Graphics Card
Asus HD 7850 DirectCU II V2 2048MB GDDR5 PCI-Express Graphics Card
In retrospect, this should perhaps be a forum post, but having got this far....
Thanks anyway - what a good site, glad I found it Reply


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Any mention of roleplaying, storytelling or atmospherics in the new edition? Am slightly concerned that theyre making it a stat version of WoW and no emphasis at all on the roleplay worries me... Mostly Zen
- Indeed, that worries me to. The only thing I've heard them saying about role-playing is a vague remark that the game will retain its style. I just hope they are so concerned about the game mechanics now only to build up a nice foundation for really important things. --Radaghast 15:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

subset: commoncrawl


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Summertime! .:Jul 21 09:.
We Choose to Go to The Moon .:Jul 19 09:.
Now I am not saying we never went to the moon,
but I do wonder why we haven't sent anyone else up there since Apollo
11 - 17. I mean, dang, If man can invent crazy ish like Serato or the Kaoss pad, I would think we are able to make annual Moon Landings right?
- Bojo
PBS .:Jul 19 09:.
Usually when I travel, I make it a point to try and see some live
music, hopefully local. On our trip to Miami there really wasn't much
in South Beach as far as music but the club music along Ocean Drive. I
picked up a New Times and found Porter Batiste Stoltz playing in Ft.
Lauderdaule a 30-40 minute drive north of South Beach. PBS is based
out of New Orleans. The music I would describe as a funk/rock band.
Some of you may be familiar with George Porter who was
the original bass player for the Meters. Long story short, we made the
trek to the show at a place called Revolution Live. There was a pretty
decent crowd and the music was well worth the drive. A pic is below.
My next blog will be out our visit to the burial grounds of Bob
- Argonaut
DJ Gaveegav: Moval Blues .:Jul 17 09:.
Gaveegav comes out of his cave and found some time in his busy schedule to drop a nice little mix, free for download. Click on the "Media" tab, and go to "Downloads" to download. 80 minutes of soulful, smooth, jazzy, funky, tropical, and worldly vibes. As cheesy a description as that may sound, it doesn't do the mix justice. Just download it, hear for yourself, and enjoy.
OX T-shirts .:Jul 16 09:.
Myself and Supa Koopa printed up some OX t-shirts. If you want to rep "The OX" hit up
myself or
Supa Koopa. First run is in white only (no smalls). The blacks drop next.
- Jo_iLL


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JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - Runners are pumped up and ready to lace up their sneakers for Saturday's River Run, but here's how it will impact traffic.
Pre-race parking will be available at EverBank Field and nearby garages will be open. In addition, there will be parking available at the Tailgater's Parking lot on the East side of the stadium. It's suggested that runners arrive at the sports complex by 7 a.m. on the day of the race.
A short section of Gator Bowl Boulevard is already closed to all pedestrian and vehicular traffic from the west bound lane, extending to the east entrances of EverBank Field. This portion of the roadway will remain closed until the race ends.
On race day from 8:20 a.m. to 9 a.m. Ocean Street between Bay Street and Beaver Street will be closed to traffic. This closure will also extend to the east, from Ocean Street passed the stadium. Also the Hart Bridge southbound will be closed from 7 a.m. to noon. Essentially, all roads from the Main Street Bridge east to the Stadium and north to Beaver Street will be closed to vehicular traffic for approximately 40 minutes.
Copyright 2012 by News4Jax.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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All cases are customizable- you can personalize and add a name or photo.
Visit my online store to view all cases and to buy. http://www.zazzle.com/abstractpaintings*/
Click on the "iphone cases" category icon up at top. I'm always adding new designs & products so make sure to bookmark my store link :-) My store also carries home decor products too. Thanks for looking!


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Located in The Rio - a mile or so off of the strip but well worth going.
6 of us had a hard time finishing 2 platters - pulled pork & chicken, ribs, brisket, turkey, ham, pastrami, chicken + some really great sides.
Skip Steele is a great host & pitmaster and we enjoyed spending some time with him - Thanks Skip - We'll be back!


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HOUSTON - A judge refused Friday to lower the bond for a day care owner charged in the deaths of four children killed in a fire.
Jessica Tata, 23, was charged with four counts of murder, four counts of abandoning a child and one count of reckless injury to a child. She's being held in the Harris County Jail with bond set at $1.1 million.
Tata's attorney, Mike DeGeurin, said the bond amount is excessive and unconstitutional. He wants it lowered to around $50,000 so Tata could be released while she awaits trial.
Prosecutors told a judge that Tata is a flight risk. She flew to Nigeria days after the fire, but she had not yet been charged. She returned to the United States several weeks after she had been charged in connection with the deaths.
Several witnesses testified Friday, including an arson investigator who said Tata lied about being in the bathroom when the fire started but that video from a Target store later revealed that she was shopping and left the children alone.
When investigators asked for a statement from Tata at the hospital the night of the blaze, she said she was in shock and could not remember anything.
The arson investigator said Tata and her family were actually in her hospital room watching news coverage of the fire. The investigator testified that he went to interview Tata at her friend's house the next day, but she said she needed to talk to an attorney first. The investigator said they expected to talk to her on Feb. 26, but she had left the country.
The investigator also testified that Tata was convicted of arson as a juvenile after she set two fires at Katy Taylor High School.
A Child Protective Services worker introduced documents that showed Tata did not reveal the previous arson arrest when she applied for a day care license.
The first witness to testify in the bond hearing was a Houston police officer who helped track down Tata in Nigeria.
Tata's brother, Ron, admitted to helping his sister travel to Nigeria because his family wanted her safe from death threats and media scrutiny.
Shomari Dickerson, 3, Elizabeth Kojah, 20 months, Kendyll Stradford, 20 months, and Elias Castillo died from the fire at a home in the 2800 block of Crestpark at Waypark shortly before 1:30 p.m. on Feb. 24. The house served as a day care facility called Jackie's Child Care.
Three other children were injured in the blaze.
Arson investigators said the fire started in the kitchen after a pot of oil was left on a hot burner.
Tata was supposed to be watching the children, but Houston Fire Department officials said she was grocery shopping at a Target store nearby when the fire started. Detectives said security video showed her arriving at the store at 1:09 p.m. and driving away from the store at 1:24 p.m. The children had been left home alone, investigators said.
Witnesses said Tata returned as smoke began billowing out of the home day care. The first call to 911 was made by someone other than Tata at 1:29 p.m., investigators said.
In court, Tata's attorneys played a recording of Tata's 911 call in which she pleaded with the operator and neighbors for help.
"They're all dying. Please somebody help me. Oh my God, my babies. Oh my God, I don't know what to do," Tata said on the 911 call.
DeGeurin said Tata went into the burning house three times to save the children and lost her own goddaughter in the fire.
As the 911 call played, Tata cried. There were tears in the court audience as well as the mother and grandmother of two of the victims became overwhelmed with grief and then left the courtroom.
Late Friday afternoon, state district Judge Marc Brown denied the bond reduction request without additional comment.
Copyright 2011 by Click2Houston.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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Quote:Ueshiba spoke of it as reading your opponents mind
Quote: Its fairly easy to do with drunks, not so easy (at least for me, at this stage) to do with competent, sober fighters.
Quote:Ed,We have sensen-no-sen in Hakko-ryu (Dentokan). These waza involve tori executing atemi or other distraction, then applying the technique prior to kake/uke initiating the attack.As Ames can confirm, there are similar techniques in the basic Daito-ryu waza as well (118 shoden)--at least in the Tokimune lineage. Similar techniques were also practiced by Ueshiba sensei in pre-war Aikibudo (reference the Noma Dojo photos and the Asahi film) and the late Shioda sensei also taught similar waza. Many Aikido dojo that have a strong law enforcement influence also maintain such techniques, such as Bernie Laus Aikido derivative, Icho-ryu.
Quote:Thanks for the straightforward reply. Thats interesting to note the pre-war Aikibudo distinction. It's a simple concept. If you notice someone is about to do you harm, the trained-for instinct would be to preempt it before it gains full momentum. We can think all the love and peace we want, but action is what matters in an unprovoked attack. non-action means you get hit. and, unfortunately, naiiveness and always looking for the peace in people would leave a defender in disbelief for a critical split second before reacting. Although on the other side of the spectrum, paranoia and over-sensitivity is probably more destructive than anything. clearly, being balanced is key to 'sen sen-no sen' action.I think thru the action of training over years is where the balanced peace comes from as a residual of training...it's not a pre-requisite to the Arts. therefore describing the concept of sen-no-sen as a mindset of 'not fighting' (as mentioned earlier) puts the cart in front of the horse.
Quote: Never did find out what wristtwister meant by "sword step"
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII.
Visit www.ShisaLion.Org
to view pictures
Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers
and more
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations
or secure installation security
Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!


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The Path of Centering Prayer
Deepening Your Experience of God
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In the teachings of Jesus, there are prayers, and then there is prayer—the silent, loving communion with the divine, beyond words or ritual. With Father Thomas Keating's book Open Mind, Open Heart, hundreds of thousands discovered the transformative power of Centering Prayer as a form of Christian meditation. Now, with The Path of Centering Prayer, Keating's senior student, friend, and advisor David Frenette reveals the profound depths of this practice, making it easier for meditators to deepen their connection with God.
Beginning and experienced practitioners alike will benefit from this fresh voice, at once eloquent and clear, as they explore:
- The key insights and principles of Centering Prayer
- Guided instruction in the sacred word, sacred breath, and sacred glance practices
- Gentleness and openness: the way of letting go and letting be
- Experiencing a deeper sense of God in meditation and in everyday life
- Many other contemplative practices and teachings founded upon the wisdom of Fathers Thomas Keating and Thomas Merton
Has your spiritual path grown routine or unfulfilling, or is it at a crossroads for new discovery? For all Christians who seek to move closer into the presence of the divine, The Path of Centering Prayer offers guidance in this rewarding and time-honored meditation practice, to help break through obstacles and illuminate the way.
"This book in my view is the best, most comprehensive, and most practical book on centering prayer."
—Father Thomas Keating
"In this beautiful book, David Frenette expands the map of the known Centering Prayer universe. With the blessing of his spiritual father, Thomas Keating, David develops and gently reshapes fundamental building blocks of the Centering Prayer teaching. This is an important moment in the Centering Prayer lineage transmission, when a faithful student emerges into mastery. David's work will breathe significant new life into your personal practice."
—Rev. Cynthia Bourgeault, author of Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening
"This excellent book represents Christianity come to maturity! Here you will find good theology, good practice, good psychology, and a recovery of the foundation itself—how to live in communion all the time."
—Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM, founding Director of the Center for Action and Contemplation
"With simplicity and great wisdom, David Frenette reconnects you to the universal tradition of how to open to God, how to pray in silence, and finally, how to let the spirit pray within your heart. If you want, or need, to be drawn deeper into prayer, read this book and live its guidance."
—Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee, PhD, Sufi teacher and author of Prayer of the Heart in Christian and Sufi Mysticism
"In his lucid guide to Centering Prayer, David Frenette navigates a path for beginners and seasoned practitioners who wish to enter ever-deepening states of loving friendship with the Divine."
—Mirabai Starr, author of God of Love: A Guide to the Heart of Judaism, Christianity and Islam
"This wonderful book provides direction, encouragement, and support for a prayer practice with ancient roots. Drawing on his considerable experience as a spiritual director, David Frenette skillfully shares stories and offers wisdom that illuminates the heart of the practice and will lead practitioners through the subtle challenges that inevitably arise in the process of living into ever-deepening levels of prayer. This is a book not only to be read, but to be consulted regularly for insight and help along the way."
—The Right Reverend Robert O'Neill, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Colorado
"The Path of Centering Prayer is a beam of light in what can sometimes be a dark and unknown journey with God. It is written from the heart of David's relationship with God and his discoveries along his contemplative journey in solitude, in community, and in spiritual direction. From this place of wisdom, David enlightens readers with encouragement and enrichment, which will nourish them in their own commitment to the centering prayer practice and the contemplative life."
—Gail Fitzpatrick-Hopler, President of Contemplative Outreach, Ltd.
Write Your Own Review
Customer Reviews
- Review for The Path of Centering Prayer Review by Ann R
David Frenette's book is highly insightful and gently lead me through Centering Prayer Contemplation and Unity.
Thank you.
(Posted on 2/28/2014)
- Review for The Path of Centering Prayer Review by Cindy M
David captures the essence of the experience "in God" in words that are difficult to capture with such a highly experiential message. I recently had the pleasure of attending his Sacred Heart workshop in Rancho Bernardo, CA. In person, he is a gentle, soft spoken man with a message of humor, compassion and inner peace. His book is filled with inner wisdom and should be on every "contemplatives" shelf.
(Posted on 11/26/2012)
- Review for The Path of Centering Prayer Review by Mary C
The practice tips in this book are so plentiful and helpful that my practice has been renewed and I believe that I am making progress again after living through a long plateau.
(Posted on 11/7/2012)
- Review for The Path of Centering Prayer Review by joan m
Excellent book for the both the new-comer and informed practitioner of Centering Prayer. David has done a thorough overview of the topic and giver many examples of how to develop a deeper relationship with the Devine.
(Posted on 10/8/2012)
Contents eBook (233 pages) Filetypes EPUB, JPG, PDF, PRC Date Published September 01, 2012 ISBN-13 978-1-60407-894-7 Product Code BK02391W


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K-14 Math and Science Education: A Physicist Meets Reality
By Robert A. Eisenstein
Robert A. Eisenstein
In this article I want to describe my evolution from a completely focused R1-level university professor and science administrator to a committed partner in K-14 STEM education. After a cursory view of the issues we face I'll describe the Santa Fe Alliance for Science, an organization I co-founded in 2005 with Susan McIntosh, a local elementary-school science teacher. The purpose of SFAFS is to help improve K-14 STEM in the Santa Fe area and to boost the perception of science held in our community. It is almost entirely a volunteer effort.
For those of us concerned about the nation's future in STEM fields, it's very troubling that for large swaths of the country, education — particularly STEM education — just doesn't seem to matter very much. I think though that this is an area where our science and engineering communities can play a very positive role, as indeed many STEM professional societies already are.
Our educational systems are accurate mirrors of what has become educationally acceptable locally and in the country as a whole. In fact, education is so deeply embedded in the social fabric that our remedial efforts must occur in a society-wide context. There is no single magic elixir that will make things right. Two outstanding publications that view our K-12 educational systems in this comprehensive way are the "Quality Counts" (2) and "Kids Count" (3) annual national and state surveys. Both make clear the essential roles of factors such as high-quality teaching, parenting, family income, poverty, pre-school and kindergarten enrollment, development of early literacy and numeracy, and so on.
Perhaps not surprisingly, these surveys show the same few states at the top, and the same few at the bottom, year after year after year. My home state (New Mexico) is in the latter category. Since statehood (1912), the creation of a robust educational system has been a continuing challenge here. This is due to many factors: a rather small, multicultural minority-majority population (~ 2.1 million, 36th in US, 2010) dispersed over a large land area (5th); a largely rural, agrarian (non-industrial based) economy; and low per capita income ($23K, 45th, 2010).
A dramatic example of our problem is the situation facing the Santa Fe Public Schools. Poverty affects as many as half of our school families, and out of about 13,500 students in the SFPS district, almost 1,000 are homeless ("homeless" is defined as a student with no fixed address). This means that for a substantial fraction of our kids, school is probably not the most important thing they are thinking about that day. Since parents are often working more than one job, they are often not available to give their children the kind of help they need (e.g., nutritional meals, help with homework, or attending school functions).
In terms of academic performance the situation is rather bleak. While in recent years student scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) have shown modest upward progress, it's still true that New Mexico students lag far behind the national average on the 4th, 8th and 12th grade literacy and math tests. In our elementary schools students are reading well behind grade level, while in math our average student enters middle school math (think pre-algebra and possibly algebra) very poorly prepared in fundamental math skills. It's common to find students who cannot add a column of numbers, who do not know the multiplication tables, and are completely at sea with ideas like fractions, ratios and proportion. This poor state of affairs has a significant impact on New Mexico's future, because a major outcome is that we are not producing a workforce that has a strong enough technical component. This hinders the state's ability to attract new business.
However, the technical staffs at our national labs (LANL, Sandia, White Sands) and at Intel are potentially an important resource for New Mexico in STEM education, since we have one of the highest per capita ratios of STEM professionals of any state. Building on this resource, from 1990 to 1995 Sandia established a program of science advisors (SCIAD) in the Albuquerque Public Schools in which staff members spent about one morning per week in a science or math classroom. At its peak, the program was active in ~150 schools in the Albuquerque area.
Other areas in New Mexico are also replete with STEM talent: Los Alamos, Las Cruces (New Mexico State University and White Sands) and Santa Fe (near LANL). Each has seen the establishment of programs making use of this resource. In terms of purely volunteer effort, the Science Education Alliance in Las Cruces was active from ~1991 until ~2011, and in Santa Fe, SFAFS began in 2005.
SFAFS is an organization of well more than 100 volunteers who work with students and teachers to help improve K-14 math and science education. Many are retired STEM professionals, but we recruit anyone who can contribute meaningfully. There are many ways to do that. This broader approach helps imbed SFAFS more completely into the community.
SFAFS offers high school and community college tutoring and mentoring in all science and math subjects, provides advisors and judges for science fairs, and offers an evening "Santa Fe Science Café for Young Thinkers" series for middle and high school students. More recently established are programs for "Professional Enrichment for Middle and High School Math and Science Teachers," and a "Math Blitz" effort aimed at improving the math skills of middle school students.
Our goal is to raise the profile of math and science in a community that heretofore has had little regard for these subjects. We want to illustrate to students (and parents) that engineering, math and science are interesting subjects that are valuable parts of their basic education and are accessible as career prospects. Here's how our programs have developed over the last eight years:
- SFAFS joined forces with the SFPS science fair program in 2007-2008. Since then SFAFS has provided almost all of the judges for that program as well as some advising about the nature of inquiry-based science fair projects. That year, nine SFPS elementary and middle schools (out of 25) participated and ~614 projects were judged. SFAFS also participated in the creation of the annual district-wide "Science Expo," a fair featuring the ~200 best projects from the local schools. In 2012-2013, nineteen schools participated and ~3311 projects were submitted. Since ~10% of these had more than one contributor, we can say that at least 3500 SFPS students participated in a science fair project, a huge increase since 2007-2008 (SFAFS also provides judging at some non-district schools; this boosts these numbers by about 8%). Science fairs have thus become much-anticipated and enjoyed (by both students and judges) annual events and a real contributor to science learning.
- In November, 2006, SFAFS began the "Santa Fe Science Cafés for Young Thinkers" series. Averaging six Cafés per academic year, 45 will have been presented by the end of 2013. Topics covered come from all aspects of science and technology. Average attendance is ~65. Videos of the Cafés are posted on our website and almost all of the presenters have been interviewed on the KSFR Public Radio Café. Several Cafés have been the subject of extensive newspaper coverage.
- The SFAFS tutoring program began in 2007-2008. We offer tutoring at SF High School and SF Community College in all math and science subjects. The SFHS program operates two afternoons/week; the one at SFCC is part of a diverse college-wide program that operates all day every weekday. We also provide smaller-scale tutoring activities at two other SFPS high schools. In our peak year (2011-2012) SFAFS interacted with over 2400 students, about two-thirds of whom attended SFCC. Tutors are offered $15/contact hour for their efforts; about half accept it.
- SFAFS began a "Professional Enrichment Program for Middle-and High School Math and Science Teachers" in Fall, 2010. Each event is a three-hour session on a Saturday morning and teachers are paid to attend. Topics are selected from forefront areas in math/science that are of general interest and that also can be of use in planning classroom lessons. Last year's series of four events on "Energy and the Environment" was very popular (average attendance ~25). Teachers registered strong enthusiasm for these events as they have for all of the 14 sessions held so far.
- The "Math Blitz" program began in Fall, 2010 as an attempt to begin elevating the poor math skills of many of our middle school students. Two out of the six SFPS middle schools are involved so far. "Blitzing" in a classroom involves volunteers engaging in a number of activities to entice student interest: competition and games about math, novel ways to learn math facts, discussion of advanced (but accessible) math topics, or providing math help to students who need it. Student attitudes toward math are assessed at the beginning and end of each semester, and we find that most students emerge at semester's end more enthusiastic about math and their likelihood for success in it.
- With the Santa Fe Institute, SFAFS annually awards a "Prize for Scientific Excellence" to the leading math or science student at each of Santa Fe's 13 graduating high schools, and to a leading math or science teacher.
A main purpose in writing this article is to open a discussion about whether programs similar to SFAFS would be a reasonable thing for the APS to sponsor. Their thrust would be quite different than the existing APS educational efforts since they would emphasize direct, immediate contact with students in a variety of venues. APS members can also provide important career advice and can serve usefully as knowledgeable voices of reason on issues like evolution, climate change and relativity.
An APS program like this would make excellent use of its natural advantage, for APS is nothing if not 50,000 math and science "content experts." When student interactions are done well, and they can be much more often than not, they have a powerful, immediate and positive impact on all concerned. And it's great for students to see that scientists are engaging, sympathetic, real people — just like they are.
Eight years in, we believe that SFAFS has been a significant, very cost-effective success. It has substantially helped to rejuvenate K-14 math and science education in Santa Fe. Based on what's happened here we believe that similar successes could be had elsewhere, and that APS, with its already outstanding programs in education, could play a leading role. I hope that proves to be possible.
Bob Eisenstein is retired in Santa Fe, NM after a rewarding career in university-based nuclear and particle physics and as a science administrator at the National Science Foundation.
- Dozens of reports have been issued since the Kerner Commission Report (A Nation At Risk, 1983).
- Quality Counts: http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/index.html
- Kids Count: http://datacenter.kidscount.org/
APS encourages the redistribution of the materials included in this newspaper provided that attribution to the source is noted and the materials are not truncated or changed.
Staff Science Writer: Michael Lucibella


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The Moon Festival is one of the oldest and most important festivals in Asian culture. It is also known as the Mid-Autumn Festival.
Early in history, Chinese people discovered there was a close relationship between the movement of the moon and the changes in the season and agriculture. They expressed their thanks to the moon by holding annual festivals.
This custom goes back as far as the Zhou Dynasty. Many legends are associated with the Moon Festival, as well as traditions.
One of the main traditions is to eat moon cakes, which is the unique food of the festival.
In Irvine, the Chinese community celebrates the Moon Festival in various forms.
On Sept. 4, it was celebrated with the Southern California Chinese Moon Festival Concert at Irvine Barclay Theatre on the campus of UC Irvine. More than 1,000 people attended, mostly from the Chinese community in Irvine and elsewhere in Orange County.
The concert was mainly sponsored by the Chinese American Federation and the All-China Federation of Returned Overseas Chinese. It was co-sponsored by numerous companies ranging from restaurants to real estate agencies, and including the Senior Club of Irvine, chaired by a noted Chinese American resident of Irvine, Henry King.
It is important for the Chinese people to keep customs alive as they immigrate to other countries, such as the United States. This concert is just one way the Chinese community in Irvine tries to keep its culture alive to help weave the fabrics of the global village of Irvine.
The official Moon Festival is Thursday night, when families will begin eating moon cakes while sipping wine in the moonlight.
The Jiangsu Women's Traditional Orchestra, from Jiangsu province along the Yangtze River of China, played many of the songs, both instrumental and vocal, at the Irvine Barclay Theatre.
The songs provided a richer sense of community.
The performances consisted of Chinese and American folk music, singers, acrobatic dances and magic. The audience was quite surprised and satisfied by the diversity.
Many ancient Chinese instruments were also displayed in the performances, including the erhu and pipa. The erhu is sometimes called the Chinese violin, which originated in Northern China, while the pipa is sometimes called the Chinese guitar, and originated from Southern China. The pipa was played in the royal courts of the emperor.
Another instrument, the gu, was featured and used as percussion in the Silk Road music duet. Many of the women in the Jiangsu Women's Traditional Orchestra were spotlighted with solo performances. Other women were able to project their voices to the audience euphonically by singing Chinese folk songs.
One performance worth noting was the Lotus Love dance, created and performed by the Irvine Chinese Art Troupe.
– Jishuai (Josh) Jia of Irvine is a ninth-grader at University High School. His parents immigrated to the United States in the early 1990s.


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A YORK man accused of nine sex offences against four women was yesterday found guilty of all charges.
Mark Ford Thompson, 37, of Hospital Fields Road in Fulford, was convicted by a jury at Teesside Crown Court. He will be sentenced next Tuesday and a judge has said he could be jailed for life.
Thompson had been arrested last October after kidnapping a student in York, forcing her into his van and raping her three times during a terrifying drive betyween York and Malton.
The student was Thompson's fourth victim. Hours earlier, he had tried to sexually assault another woman while staying at a friend's house in York.
Last summer, he also tried to rape a 32-year-old woman in her house in York. And in 2009, he sexually assaulted a 23-year-old York woman in an alleyway off Coney Street.
He was convicted of:
- 3 counts of rape
- 2 counts of attempted rape
- 1 count of kidnap
- 1 count of sexual assault
- 1 count of attempted sexual assault
- 1 count of trespass with intent to commit a sexual offence
His offending started in 2009 with him groping a woman in Coney Street until a passer-by and nearby doormen intervened, and it ended last October with him bundling a student into the back of his white van and raping her repeatedly in York and at Kirkham Priory near Malton.
The student had been on her way home alone from a night club, where she worked to part-fund her studies.
Just hours before the final attack, Thompson had been thrown out of another woman's house for going into her bedroom with his trousers undone as she slept.
A few months earlier, he had invaded a fourth woman's bedroom and tried to rape her but she had managed to stop him.
Judge Michael Taylor at Teesside Crown Court said: "Where there has been a campaign of sexual activity long sentences in excess of 20 years can be expected."
Thompson's crimes were designated as being in the most serious category of rapes. The judge added that the only issue for him to decide was whether he should pass a "determinate" sentence which could be as long as 25 to 28 years, or an "indeterminate" sentence which would be a life sentence with a minimum term to be served before Thompson could be considered for parole.
Detective Chief Inspector Maria Taylor, who led the North Yorkshire Police investigation, said: "I would like to pay particular praise to the victims in this case who clearly, based on the facts, have been subjected to the most harrowing of experiences.
"Had it not been for their courage and that of the witnesses to come forward and work the police, the conviction of Thompson would have been all the more difficult. I would like to extend my personal gratitude to them."
Thompson showed no emotion as the jury returned their nine unanimous guilty verdicts after nearly six hours in retirement at the end of the nine day trial.
He had denied sexually assaulting the first woman in Coney Street, trespassing into the third woman's house with intent to commit a sexual offence and trying to rape her in 2013, attempting to sexually assault the second woman in the early hours of October 29, 2013, and kidnapping the student, raping her three times and also trying to rape her again.
His barrister Alex Menary urged the judge to consider adjourning the case so a psychiatrist could prepare a report on Thompson. Teesside Crown Court heard the judge will have to decide how dangerous Thompson will be towards women in future and the barrister said he was not qualified to talk on certain matters that would be relevant.
At one point in his police interviews after his arrest, Thompson referred to "my little twitches in my head" but he did not put any medical evidence before the jury.
The judge said he had enough information about Thompson without the report.
The prosecution will submit victim impact statements from at least two of the women. The court heard the women whom Thompson confronted in their bedrooms only felt able to tell police about his actions after the student told a retired police officer about her ordeal and he was arrested.
Thompson has been in custody since his arrest in the afternoon of October 29 and has been remanded in prison until Tuesday.


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Connections 20016. Logic and Programming
Logical equivalence, propositional expressions and clear reasoning are cornerstones of learning to write computer programs or software. Further grounding in logical reasoning will help students in computer science to see a theoretical side of programming and the philosophical side of writing collections of statements in languages that make machines perform logical instructions. Philosophy students will benefit by focusing on the use and application of logic in the writing of computer programs and will come to see, firsthand, the point of logical precision.
PHIL 125 Logic
COMP 115, FNMS 115 Robots, Games and Problem Solving
or COMP 116 Data Structures


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Trademark law protects a trademark owner's exclusive right to use a trademark when use of the mark by another would be likely to cause consumer confusion as to the source or origin of goods. To establish a violation of the Lanham Act for either a registered mark under 15 U.S.C. § 1114, or an unregistered mark under 15 U.S.C. § 1125(a), the plaintiff must demonstrate that (1) it has a valid and legally protectable mark; (2) it owns the mark; and (3) the defendant's use of the mark to identify goods or services causes a likelihood of confusion. See A&H Sportswear, Inc. v. Victoria's Secret Stores, Inc., 237 F.3d 198 (3rd Cir. 2000).
To prevail on a claim of trademark infringement, a plaintiff must establish that it has a valid mark entitled to protection; and that the defendant used the same or a similar mark in commerce in connection with the sale or advertising of goods or services without the plaintiff's consent. The plaintiff must also show that defendant's use of the mark is likely to cause confusion as to the affiliation, connection or association of defendant with plaintiff, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval of defendant's goods, services or commercial activities by plaintiff. See 1-800 Contacts, Inc. v. WhenU.com, Inc., 414 F.3d 400 (2d Cir. 2005). Thus, "use," "in commerce," and "likelihood of confusion" are three distinct elements necessary to establish a trademark infringment claim.
"Use" of a trademark by an alleged infringer must be established as a threshold matter. Any number of activities may be "in commerce" or create a "likelihood of confusion," however, such activities do not violate the Lanham Act absent the use of a trademark. The use requirement serves a limiting function by preventing trademark holders from asserting a generalized right to control language. Some conduct through which a seller or producer seeks to capitalize on a competitor's name recognition does not amount to use for purposes of a trademark infringement claim. "Pop-up" advertisements on the Internet or specific product placement in retail stores may be objectionable to the holder of a trademark, but such uses do not amount to trademark use and are not actionable under the Lanham Act. See 1-800 Contacts, Inc. v. WhenU.com, Inc., 414 F.3d 400 (2d Cir. 2005).
"In commerce"
The statutory requirement that an alleged infringing use of a trademark be "in commerce" to establish a claim of infringement under the Lanham Act is derived from trademark law's basis in the congressional power to regulate interstate commerce. To satisfy the "in commerce" requirement, the plaintiff must demonstrate that the allegedly infringing activities have a substantial effect on interstate commerce. Activities that meet the "in commerce" requirement include: advertising by the alleged infringer in more than one state; interstate movement of goods bearing an infringing mark from manufacturer to seller; sending a product to another state for the purpose of registering a trademark; and advertising in newspapers that have interstate distribution, on billboards near interstate highways, or on radio or television stations with an interstate broadcasting range.
"Likelihood of confusion"
"Likelihood of confusion" is the central focus of any trademark infringement claim. A likelihood of confusion exists when consumers viewing the allegedly infringing mark would probably assume that the product or service it represents is associated with the source of a different product or service identified with a similar mark. Courts conducting a likelihood of confusion analysis apply a different standard to directly competing, as opposed to non-competing, goods. See A&H Sportswear, Inc. v. Victoria's Secret Stores, Inc., 237 F.3d 198 (3rd Cir. 2000). When the alleged infringer and the trademark owner deal in competing goods or services, the court rarely needs to look beyond the mark itself; infringement will usually be found if the two marks at issue are sufficiently similar that consumer confusion can be expected. If the goods in question are completely unrelated, confusion is unlikely and infringement will generally not be found.
If the goods in question are related but do not directly compete for sales, the likelihood of confusion analysis becomes more complex. The Lapp test is a non-exhaustive list of factors to be considered in determining whether there is a likelihood of confusion between marks. Factors relevant to a determination of likelihood of confusion include: the strength of the trademark owner's mark; the degree of similarity between the trademark owner's mark and the allegedly infringing mark; evidence of actual consumer confusion; the marketing channels used; the type of goods involved and the degree of care likely to be exercised by the purchaser; the alleged infringer's intent in selecting the mark; and other facts showing that the consuming public is likely to expect the trademark owner to manufacture a product in the alleged infringer's market, or is likely to expand into that market. See Interpace Corp. v. Lapp, Inc., 721 F.2d 460 (3d Cir. 1983).
Trademark law is equitable and utilizes the traditional equitable defenses with the added element of a presumption favoring the registrant for trademarks that are registered under the Lanham Act. In addition to the equitable doctrines of laches, estoppel, and unclean hands, an alleged infringer may assert the defenses of fair use and collateral use. Fair use allows commentary or criticism that incidentally involves the use of a trademark so long as such use is for a purpose other than that normally made of a trademark. When a party uses a trademarked item as a component of a more complex product, collateral use allows the party to identify that component by its trademarked name.
The remedies for infringement under the Lanham Act are statutory and consist of: injunctive relief; an accounting for profits; damages, including the possibility of treble damages when appropriate; attorney's fees in "exceptional cases;" and costs. See 15 U.S.C. § 1117. These remedies are cumulative, meaning that a successful plaintiff may recover the defendant's profits in addition to any damages, or other remedies awarded.


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These days CREATIONIST IDEAS... CONTINUE TO EXPAND THEIR SPHERE OF INFLUENCE... TURKS ARE LEADING THE MUSLIM WORLD (in activities against the theory of evolution). Since 2007, a weighty book (around 8 kilos), the Atlas of Creation, written by a Turk called Harun Yahya, whose real name is Adnan Oktar... seeks to prove with photographs of fossils that evolution never happened.
A SERIOUS OFFENSIVE AGAINST DARWIN IS TAKING PLACE. This Turkish group leaves nothing to chance. Adnan Oktar, a most extraordinary character, has great strength...
IT IS NOW THE TURN OF EUROPE, which was for long unaffected by these movements, TO BE AFFECTED BY THE CREATIONIST WAVE FOLLOWING THE APPEARANCE OF HARUN YAHYA'S BOOK. For example, one of these countries is Britain; many conferences have been held in both state schools and universities in Britain.
Creationist views now have the wind in their sails. AND SWITZERLAND HAS NOT BEEN SPARED THIS 'INVASION'." In 2007, creationist theory appeared alongside the theory of evolution for the first time in school text books... The campaign of the opponents of evolution does not seem likely to end soon.
European countries unable to withstand the devastating impact on Darwinism of the Atlas of Creation, are one by one surrendering Europe to Creationist belief. (For details, see The Collapse of Darwinism in Europe)


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Darwin's problem with suffering: Darwin was aware of the dilemma between a good God and the observed suffering of living things. In 1876 he wrote in his autobiography
"A being so powerful and so full of knowledge as a God who could create the universe, is to our finite minds omnipotent and omniscient, and it revolts our understanding to suppose that his benevolence is not unbounded, for what advantage can there be in the sufferings of millions of the lower animals throughout almost endless time?"
Nora Barlow, ed. The autobiography of Charles Darwin, 1809-1882: with original omissions restored. New York, W.W. Norton, 1969, p90
Editorial Comment: Darwin wrote his autobiography in 1876, although it wasn't published until after his death. It was originally included in The Life Letters of Charles Darwin published by his son Francis in 1887. There were many omissions from the original manuscript, most of which seem to be at the request of Emma Darwin, his deeply religious Unitarian wife and all of which seem designed to make Darwin appear an acceptable English Church supporting gentleman. (Ref. theistic evolution, Scriptures Genesis, philosophy, world-view)
Evidence News, 16 December 2009
Charles Darwin was a bright young theological graduate, but by the end of his life he had turned his back on God, denied that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and declared Scripture to be "manifestly false". What happened?
Read the Creation Research article The Descent of a Man. PDF here
Darwin's writings, including several editions of the Origin of Species and his many other books and articles which are available from The Complete Works of Charles Darwin


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Open Session
Saturday, March 31, 2012 - 12:00pm
Ohio Dreams
3495 Tugend Rd
Butler, OH 44822
15 & under 12pm - 6pm
16 & over 12pm - 9pm
Cost $15
Safety Information
Helmets are required, if you do not have one we have a limited number of rentals available for $5/session
If you are attending a day session during our winter programs you will need to fill out a waiver. Please download it and bring it with you.
« Back to Calendar


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So you thought the Justin Upton saga would end just a day after the two-time All-Star rejected a deal that would have sent him to the Seattle Mariners?
Think again.
The New York Mets have long been the younger brother in the Big Apple, and after losing notable pieces in recent years (Carlos Beltran, Jason Bay, Angel Pagan and 2012 Cy Young winner R.A. Dickey), general manager Sandy Alderson would love nothing more than to make a back page splash.
According to Maric Carig of Newsday, that splash not surprisingly may come in the form of Upton:
Sources say the Mets are again interested in trading for Justin Upton. But it's a longshot that they'll give up enough prospects for a deal.
— Marc Carig (@MarcCarig) January 12, 2013
The prospects GM Kevin Towers most likely covets (pitchers Zach Wheeler, Matt Harvey, Jeurys Famila and infielder Wilmer Flores) will assuredly be difficult to obtain as Carig mentions.
Heading into 2013, Wheeler (No.1), Flores (No. 6) and Famila (No.8) are ranked among the organization's top 10 prospects by Baseball America.
Harvey went 3-5 with 70 strikeouts and a 2.73 ERA after being called up in July. He is familiar with Chase Field, however. In his MLB debut, Harvey gave up only three hits, while striking out 11 batters in 3-1 win over the D-backs.
Another day, another rumor in the life of Justin Upton.


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Steven's grilled matzoh recipe for Passover got me thinking about the upcoming Easter holiday. Is anyone grilling or smoking a ham or perhaps some lamb? Because of schedule conflicts we had dinner yesterday (a week early), but I'm thinking about firing up the WSM and disposing of a large pork butt that's been languishing in the bottom of the freezer for far too long.
How about you?


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Cueto throws zeros as Reds end seven-game slide
Fighting fatigue, ace fans nine in 7 IP with clutch defense behind him
CINCINNATI -- The Reds needed a win in the worst way on Saturday. They turned to their ace, and he delivered.
Johnny Cueto tossed seven sparkling innings, and Brayan Pena singled home the game's only run in the fifth as Cincinnati snapped a season-long seven-game losing streak with a 1-0 victory over the Nationals at Great American Ball Park.
Cueto wasn't feeling well at the outset of the game, as the mid-afternoon heat and humidity at game time had him experiencing fatigue. But he turned things around and held a hot-hitting opponent in check; going into the contest, Washington had been hitting .318 since the All-Star break.
"I felt without strength [early in the game]," Cueto said through translator Tomas Vera. "[But] I told [Reds manager Bryan Price], 'Don't worry, I'll keep going. I will do it.'"
The All-Star found himself in trouble in the first inning. He allowed a leadoff single to Denard Span, and after Anthony Rendon's fielder's-choice grounder to short, Cueto walked Jayson Werth to put two on with one out. But the right-hander got Adam LaRoche to line out to center on a nice catch by Billy Hamilton and retired Ian Desmond on a 3-1 groundout to escape the jam.
The ball hit to center by LaRoche seemed to take off on Hamilton, who initially broke a step in before turning to his left to chase after it and make a leaping catch.
Hamilton's play wasn't the only instance of excellent Reds defense that helped Cueto early on. With Bryce Harper on first and nobody out in the second, Wilson Ramos hit a deep drive to right-center that Jay Bruce ran down. Bruce immediately turned and fired to first to nab Harper, who had gotten all the way around second before the ball was caught.
"You're really looking at what's made us successful, and what makes most teams successful: the pitching and the defense and good situational hitting," Price said. "You don't have to be dynamic offensively; you just have to be productive."
Cincinnati's offense was far from dynamic, continuing its post-All-Star break hibernation. But Pena gave Cueto all the run support he'd need in the fifth. Following a Chris Heisey leadoff double and steal of third one out later against Washington starter Gio Gonzalez, Pena singled to left for a 1-0 lead.
Cueto scattered three other hits and yielded two more walks, but beyond that he was strong, striking out nine -- fanning the side in both the third and sixth innings -- to give the Reds a chance to finally get in the win column for the first time since the All-Star break.
"Early in the game, the humidity was beating him up, but boy, when we took that lead, it was like a whole different guy out there," Price said of Cueto.
"I started to breathe more deeply, and I was just slowing down a little more, and I was painting the ball where I wanted," Cueto said of the remainder of his outing. "I was throwing the pitches where I wanted, and it gave me the aggressiveness that I wanted."
Cueto handled things through the seventh, after which he gave way to the bullpen. Jonathan Broxton came on in the eighth, but after getting two outs, he walked Rendon and hit Werth. That's when Price summoned Aroldis Chapman to try for a four-out save.
"I love the way Broxton is throwing the ball; going into that at-bat, LaRoche is 1-for-7 off Jonathan, but it just seemed to me with the matchup, left-on-left, it just seemed to make sense to make that move to Chappy."
Chapman got LaRoche to ground out to short. But in the ninth, he walked Desmond to lead off the frame. Desmond tried to steal second, but Pena fired a perfect strike to nail him.
Pena recalled what happened in New York against the Yankees last Sunday -- a game also started by Cueto -- when a similar situation arose in the ninth with Chapman in. The Reds battery was unable to hold the winning run at first, leading to an eventual walk-off loss.
"We kind of let [Jacoby] Ellsbury take a big jump, and he ended up being the winning run," Pena said. "We talked about it after the game, and I told [Chapman], 'You know what, from now on, no matter who's running on first, we have to give them a couple of looks. [Chapman] gave me a quick step, and he gave me a chance to throw him out."
Chapman proceeded to strike out both Harper and Ramos to pick up his 22nd save of the season. It was his fourth career save in which he pitched more than one inning and first since Sept. 14, 2013, against the Brewers. With the two punchouts, he extended his MLB-record streak of consecutive relief appearances with a strikeout to 43.
But most importantly, the Reds hung on and experienced a victory for the first time in 13 days.
"In order to get on a roll and really start feeling good about what we're doing, it starts with putting wins together," Price said. "We're not going to get back to where we want to be by playing .500 baseball; we have to be a lot better than that. Today was a good start."
Manny Randhawa is an associate reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.


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Fast start propels Yankees to series win over Twins
After scoring nine runs in first four innings, New York staves off rally
MINNEAPOLIS -- With management focused on adding arms, the Yankees are trying to make do with the bats they already have.
Sunday's 9-7 win and and subsequent series victory over the Twins at Target Field were signs -- albeit brief ones -- that the current lineup might be enough to get by.
"You look at three of the four days, we hit the ball extremely well, and that's what we need," manager Joe Girardi said. "We need to come up with that consistency."
It was clear from the get-go that Twins starter Ricky Nolasco was in for a rough afternoon. He used his first seven pitches to walk leadoff hitter Brett Gardner before surrendering a single to Derek Jeter that began an early onslaught.
Mark Teixeira singled home Gardner, and then Brian McCann -- a late addition to the lineup after nursing a sore foot -- brought home Jeter with a double past center fielder Sam Fuld's glove near the base of the outfield wall.
"There's going to be those days where you don't hit the ball, but it was great to jump all over Nolasco," Girardi said.
After Hiroki Kuroda set down the home team with a 1-2-3 first, Nolasco stepped back on the mound for more.
The Yankees greeted him with three straight singles from Brian Roberts, Ichiro Suzuki and Kelly Johnson to load the bases. After Jeter picked up an RBI with a sacrifice fly, Jacoby Ellsbury knocked a line-drive three-run home run to the right-field porch to make it 6-0, and the rout was on.
"He really had nothing," Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. "Nothing was coming out of his hand. They hit everything he threw out there. We gotta go better than that. He did nothing for us today and didn't give us a chance."
Even after Nolasco (5.90 ERA this season) exited, the Yankees' lineup was efficient. Suzuki and Johnson pieced back-to-back singles together against reliever Anthony Swarzak in the fourth. Another single by Jeter and a groundout by Ellsbury scored both of them, and then Ellsbury ended up scoring from third on a balk by Swarzak for a 9-0 lead.
In the ninth, Jeter put a cap on the day with a single to right -- his 3,400th career hit. Before the at-bat, the home crowd gave Jeter a lengthy standing ovation.
"You know, the fans have been good to me pretty much every time I've come here," Jeter said. "Even when they've booed me, they've been respectful doing it. I've enjoyed coming here to Minnesota and playing, but it makes you feel good any time the fans appreciate what you've done."
Kuroda (5 2/3 innings, four earned runs) was mostly solid on the afternoon, save for a poor fourth inning.
The right-hander walked Josh Willingham with one out before fielding a grounder from Oswaldo Arcia and throwing the ball past Teixeira at first. Arcia was tagged out at second, but Willingham scored during the the chaos to put Minnesota's first run on the board.
"With the stuff that I had today, it was important that the offense picked me up," Kuroda said.
Things got stickier when Kurt Suzuki and Trevor Plouffe hit back-to-back doubles with two outs, and then Chris Colabello smashed a home run into the bullpen in left-center field to make it 9-4.
"It's always tough to play from behind, but we battled," Colabello said. "That's all you can really ask for really when you get behind. You just try to compete and pick your guys up on the mound."
The Yankees' bullpen made things interesting, as Adam Warren gave up an RBI groundout to Chris Parmelee in the seventh and Jim Miller surrendered a solo homer to Plouffe in the eighth to cut the lead to 9-6. David Robertson then allowed a run in the ninth before retiring Suzuki as the potential winning run for his 21st save.
New York's offensive outburst came on a day when general manager Brian Cashman made two pitching-centric moves.
The Yankees traded pitcher Vidal Nuno for D-backs right-hander Brandon McCarthy and designated outfielder Alfonso Soriano for assignment in favor of reliever Bruce Billings, who was called up from Triple-A.
"We've gotta get through our pitching first," Girardi said. "We don't plan on playing with 12 players the rest of the time, but we'll go day-by-day right now.
"We've liked our lineup the whole year. It's been a lot of ups and downs, but hopefully these four days here got 'em going and it carries on to this week and the rest of the year."
Alex M. Smith is an associate reporter for MLB.com. Follow him on Twitter @asmiff. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.


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Jenn Hartley joined the Jones Graduate School of Business as the assistant director of alumni relations in the office of external relations on May 6.With eight years of experience in higher education in business schools, Hartley came to the Jones School from Olin Business School at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri, where she was associate director of MBA student affairs. Prior to Olin, she also worked in student affairs at the business school at St. Louis University."We are extremely pleased to have Jenn on the team," said Ben Renberg, assistant dean of external relations. "Her background at Olin and St. Louis University brings a skill set we know will serve the Jones School alumni well."After moving to Houston less than two weeks ago, Hartley recognized the significance of this transition in geography and career. "It feels like the right time to branch out. Before I earned my MBA I knew I wanted to stay in higher education - business schools in particular. This new position at Rice is the ideal fit for me." She looks forward to bringing a fresh perspective and continuing to build a strong Jones School alumni program.Hartley earned an MBA from St. Louis University and a B.S. in Business from Eastern Illinois University. She and her husband Josh are building a house in the Heights and have two rescue dogs, Tucker, a corgi, and Stella, a corgi beagle mix.