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ATI Radeon X800 Pro and XT Platinum Edition: R420 Arrivesby Derek Wilson on 5/4/2004 10:28 AM EST
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raks1024 - Monday, January 24, 2005 - linkfree ati x800: http://www.pctech4free.com/default.aspx?ref=46670 Reply
Ritalinkid - Monday, June 28, 2004 - linkAfter reading almost all of the video cards reviews posted on anandtech I start to get the feeling the anandtech has a grudge against nvidia. The reviews seem to put nvidia down no matter what area they excel in. With leading openGL support, ps3.0 support, and the 6850 shadowing the x800 in directX, its seems like nvidia should not be counted out as the "best card."
I would love to see a review that tested all the features that both cards offered especially if showed the games that would benefit the most from each cards features (if they are available). Maybe then could I decide which is better, or which could benefit me more. Reply
BlackShrike - Saturday, May 08, 2004 - linkHey if anyone is gonna be buying one of these new cards, would anyone want to sell their 9700 pro or 9800 por/Xt for like 100-150 bucks? If you do contact me at firstname.lastname@example.com. Thanks. Reply
DonB - Saturday, May 08, 2004 - linkNo TV tuner on this card either? Will there be an "All-In-Wonder" version soon that will include it? Reply
xin - Friday, May 07, 2004 - link(my bad, I didn't notice that I was on the first page of the posts, and replied to a message there heh)
Well, since everyone else is throwing their preferences out there... I guess I will too. My last 3 cards have been ATI cards (9700Pro & 9500Pro, and an 8500 "Pro"), and I have not been let down. Right at this moment I lean towards the x800XT.
However, I am not concerned about power since I am running a TruePower550, and I will be interested in seeing what happens with all of this between now and the next 4-6 weeks when these cards actually come to market... and I will make my decision then on which card to buy. Reply
xin - Friday, May 07, 2004 - link
Besides that, even if it were true (which it isn't), there is a world of difference between have *some* level of support, and requiring it. (*some* meaning the intial application of PS3.0 technology to games, that will likely be as sloppy as your first time in the back of a car with your first girlfriend).
Game makers will not require PS3.0 support for a long long long time... because it would alienate the vast majority of the people out there, or at least for the time being any person who doesn't have a NV40 card.
Some games may implement it and look slightly better, or even still look the same only run faster while looking the same.... but I would put money down that by the time PS3.0 usage in games comes anywhere close to mainstream, both mfg's will have their new, latest and greatest cards out, probably a 2 generations or more past these cards. Reply
xin - Friday, May 07, 2004 - link
first of all... "alot of the upcoming topgames will support PS3.0!" ??? They will? Which ones exactly? Reply
Z80 - Friday, May 07, 2004 - linkGood review. Pretty much tells me that I can select either Nvidia or ATI with confidence that I'm getting alot of "bang for my buck". However, my buck bang for video cards rarely exceeds $150 so I'm waiting for the new low to mid range cards before making a purchase. Reply
xin - Friday, May 07, 2004 - link
I love how a handful of stores out there feel the need to rip people off by charing $500+ for the x800PRO cards, since the XT isn't available yet.
Anyway, something interesting I noticed today:
Notice the "expected ship date"... at least they have their pricing right. Reply
a2y - Friday, May 07, 2004 - linkTrog, I Also agree, the thing is.. its true i do not have complete knowledge of deep details of video cards.. u see my current video card is now 1 year old (Geforce4 mx440) which is terrible for gaming (50fps and less) and some games actually do not support it (like deusEX 2). I wanted a card that would be future proof, every consumer would go thinking this way, I do not spend everything i earned, but to me and some others $400-$500 is O.K. If it means its going to last a bit longer.
I especially worry about the technology used more than the other specs of the cards, more technologies mean future games are going to support it. I DO NOT know what i'v just said actually means, but I fealt it during the past few years and have been affected by it right now (like the deus ex 2 problem!) it just doesn't support it, and my card performs TERRIBLY in all games
now my system is relatively slow for hardcore gaming:
P4 2.4GHz - 512MB RDRAM PC800 - 533MHz FSB - 512KB L2 Cache - 128MB Geforce4 mx440 card.
I wanted a big jump in performance especially in gaming so thats why i wanted the best card currently available. Reply
NullSubroutine - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkTrog I agree with you for the most part, but there are some people who can use upgrades. I myself have bought expensive video cards in the past. I got the Geforce3 right when it came out (in top of the line alienware system for 1400 bucks), and it lasted me for 2-3 years. Now if someone spends 400-500 bucks on a video card that lasts them that long (2-3 years) its no different than if someone buys a 200 buck video card every year. I am one of those people who likes to buy new compoents when computing speed doubles and if I have the money I'll get what I can that will last me the longest. If I cant afford top of the line Ill get something that will get me by (9500pro last card I bought for 170 over a year ago).
However I do agree with you that people who upgrade to the best every generation is silly. Reply
TrogdorJW - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkI'm sorry, but I simply have to laugh at anyone going on and on about how they're going to run out and buy the latest graphics cards from ATI or Nvidia right now. $400 to $500 for a graphics card is simply too much (and it's too much for a CPU as well). Besides, unless you have some dementia that requires you to run all games at 1600x1200 with 4xAA and 8xAF, there's very little need for either the 6800 Ultra or the X800 XT right now. Relax, take a deep breath, save some money, and forget about the pissing contest.
So, is it just me, or is there an inverse relationship between a person's cost of computer hardware and their actual knowledge of computers? I have a coworker that is always spending money on upgrading his PC, and he really has no idea what he's doing. He went from an Athlon XP 2800+ (OC'ed to 2.4 GHz) to a P4 2.8 OC'ed to 3.7 GHz. He also went from a 9800 Pro 256 to a 9800 XT. In the past, he also had a GeForce FX 5900 Ultra. He tries to overclock all of his systems, they sound like a jet engine, and none of them are actually fully stable. In the last year, he has spent roughly $5000 on computer parts (although he has sold off some of the "old" parts like the 5900 Ultra). Performance of his system has probably improved by about 25% over the course of the year.
Sorry for the rant, but behavior like that from *anybody* is just plain stupid. He's gone from 120 FPS in some games up to 150 FPS. Anyone here actually think he can tell the difference? I suppose it goes without saying that he's constantly crowing about his 3DMark scores. Now he's all hot to go out and buy the X800 XT cards, and he's been asking me when they'll be in stores. Like I care. They're nice cards, I'm sure, but why buy them before you actually have a game that needs the added performance?
His current games du joir? Battlefield 1942 and Battlefield Vietnam. Yeah... those really need a high performance DX9 card. The 80+ FPS of the 9800 XT he has just isn't cutting it.
So, if you read my description of this guy and think I'm way off base, go get your head examined. Save your money, because some day down the road you will be glad that you didn't spend everything you earned on computer parts. Enjoy life, sure, but having a faster car, faster computer, bigger house, etc. than someone else is worth pretty much jack and shit when it all comes down to it.
/Rant. :D Reply
a2y - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkIf a card is going to come up every few weeks then how do you guys choose which to buy?
ATI have the trade-up section for old cards, is that any good? Reply
gxshockwav - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkUm...what happened to the posting of new Ge6 6850 benchmark numbers? Reply
NullSubroutine - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkTrog, its good to hear you were being nice, but I wasnt bashing THG, I love that site (besides this one) and I get alot of my tech info from there.
What I normally do though is I take benchmarks from different sites then put them in Excel, make a little graph and see the % point differences between the tests. If you plan on buying a new vid card its important to find out if the Nvida or ATi card is faster on your type of system.
And from what I found is that the AMD system from Atech performed better with Nvidia, and Intel system peformed better with ATi from THG (for Farcry and Unreal2004 only ones to be somewhat similar tests).
#61 How much money did ATi spend when developing the R3xx line? I would venture to say a decent amount...somtimes companies invest more money in a design then refine it several times (at less cost) before starting from scratch again. ATi and Nvidia has done this for quite awhile. Also from what Ive heard the r3xx had the possibilty of 16 pipes to begin with..this true anyone?
Texture memory about 256 doesnt really matter now b/c of the insane bandwidth the 8x apg has to offer, however one might see that 512 may come in handy after Doom3 comes out since they use shitloads of high res textures instead of high polygons for alot of detail. I dont see 512 coming out for a little while, espescially with ram prices. Reply
NullSubroutine - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkTrog, its good to hear you were being nice, but I wasnt bashing THG, I love that site (besides this one) and I get alot of my tech info from there.
What I normally do though is I take benchmarks from different sites then put them in Excel, make a little graph and see the % point differences between the tests. If you plan on buying a new vid card its important to find out if the Nvida or ATi card is faster on your type of system.
And from what I found is that the AMD system from Atech performed better with Nvidia, and Intel system peformed better with ATi from THG (for Farcry and Unreal2004 only ones to be somewhat similar tests).
#61 How much money did ATi spend when developing the R3xx line? I would venture to say a decent amount...somtimes companies invest more money in a design then refine it several times (at less cost) before starting from scratch again. ATi and Nvidia has done this for quite awhile. Also from what Ive heard the r3xx had the possibilty of 16 pipes to begin with..this true anyone?
Texture memory about 256 doesnt really matter now b/c of the insane bandwidth the 8x apg has to offer, however one might see that 512 may come in handy after Doom3 comes out since they use shitloads of high res textures instead of high polygons for alot of detail. I dont see 512 coming out for a little while, espescially with ram prices. Reply
deathwalker - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkWell...once again..someone is lying thru there teeth. What happen to the $399 entry price of the Pro model? Cheapest price on pricewatch it $478. Someone trying to cash in on the new buyer hysteria? I am impressed though with ATI's ability to step up to the plate and steal Nvidia's thunder. Reply
a2y - Thursday, May 06, 2004 - linkOMG OMG!! I almost gone to buy and build a new system with latest specs and graphics card! and was going for the nVidia 6800Ultra ! until just now i decided to see any news from ATI and discovered their new card!
Man if ATI and nVidia are going to bring up a card every 2/3 weeks then i'll never be able to build this system!!!
Being a (Pre)fan of half-life 2, I guess im going to wait until its released to buy a graphics card (meaning when we all die and go to hell).
remy - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkFor the OpenGL vs D3D performance argument don't forget to take a look at Homeworld2 as it is an OpenGL game. ATI's hardware certainly seems to have come a long way since the 9700 Pro in that game! Reply
TrogdorJW - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkNullSubroutine - It was meant as nice sarcasm, more or less. No offense intended. (I was also trying to head off this thread becoming a "THG sucks blah blah blah" tangent, as many in the past have done when someone mentions their reviews.)
My basic point (without doing a ton of research) is that pretty much every hardware site has their own demos that they use for benchmarking. Given that the performance difference between the ATI and Nvidia cards was relatively constant (I think), it's generally safe to assume that the levels, setup, bots, etc. are not the same when you see differing scores. Now if you see to places using the same demo and the same system setup, and there's a big difference, then you can worry. I usually don't bother comparing benchmark numbers from two different sites since they are almost never the same configuration. Reply
Pumpkinierre - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkSorry, scrub that last one. I couldnt help it. I will reform.
Pumpkinierre - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkSo, which is better: a64 at 2Gig or P4 at 3.2?
jibbo - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - link"Zobar is right; contra Jibbo, the increased flexibility of PS3 means that for many 2.0 shader programs a PS3 version can achieve equivalent results with a lesser performance hit."
I think you're both still missing my point. There is nothing that says PS3.0 is faster than PS2.0. You are both correct that it has to potential to be faster, though you both assume that a first generation PS3.0 architecture will perform at the same level as a refined PS2.0 architechture.
PS3.0 is one of the big reasons that nVidia's die size and transistor count are bigger than ATI's. The additional power drain (and consequently heat dissipation) of those 40M transistors also helps to limit the clock speeds of the 6800. When you're talking about ALU ops per second (which dominate math-intensive shaders), these clock speeds become very important. A lot of the 6800's speed for PS3.0 will have to be found in the driver optimizations that will compile these shaders for PS3.0. Left to itself, ATI's raw shader performance still slaughters nVidia's.
They both made trade-offs, and it seems that ATI is banking that PS3.0 won't be a dealbreaker in 2004. Only time will tell.... Reply
Phiro - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkK, I found the $400M that the CEO claimed. He also claimed $400M for the NV3x core as well. It seemed more as a boast than anything, not particularly scientific or exact.
In any case, ATI supposedly spent $165-180M last year (2003) on R&D, with an estimated increase of 100% for this year. How long has the 4xx core been in development?
Regardless, ultimately we the consumers are the winners. Whether or not the R&D spent pans out will play out over the next couple years, as supposedly the nv4x core has a 24 month lifespan.
413xram - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkIf you watch nvidia's launch video on their site they mention the r&d costs for their new card. Reply
RyanVM - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkWhat ever happened to using ePSXe as a video card benchmark? Reply
Phiro - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkWell, Nvidia may have spent $400M on this (I've never seen that number before but we'll go with it I guess) but they paid themselves for the most part.
ATI's cost can't be too trivialized - didn't they drop a product design or two in favor of getting this out the door instead? And any alteration in the architecture of something doesn't really qualify as a hardware "refresh" in my book - a hardware refresh for an OEM consists of maybe one speed notch increase in the RAM, new bios, larger default HD, stuff like that. MLK is what Dell used to call it - Mid Life Kick. Reply
retrospooty - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - link"Precisely. By the time 512mb is useful, the card will be too slow for it to matter, and you'd need a new card any way."
Both cards perform great, both have wins and losses depending on the game. The deciding factor will be price and power requirements.
Since prices will adjust downward, at a fairly equal rate, that leaves power. With Power requirements being so incredibly high with the NV40, that leans me toward ATI.
413xram also has a good point above. For Nvidia, this is a 400 million dollar new chip design. For ATI, this was a refresh of an old design to add 16 pipes, and a few other features. After the losses NV took with the heavily flawed NV30 and 35 , they need a financial boom, and this isnt it.
mattsaccount - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkThere are no games available today that use 256mb of video RAM, let alone 512mb. Even upper-high-end cards routinely come with 128mb (e.g. Geforce FX 5900, Radeon 9600XT). It would not make financial sense for a game developer to release a game that only a small fraction of the community could run acceptably.
>> I have learned from the past that future possibilties of technology in hardware does nothing for me today.
Precisely. By the time 512mb is useful, the card will be too slow for it to matter, and you'd need a new card any way. Reply
413xram - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - link#64 Can you explain "gimmick"? Reply
413xram - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkThey announced they where going to in there release anyway. Later on this summer. Why not now? Reply
jensend - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - link#61- nuts. 512 mb ram will pull loads more power, put out a lot more heat, cost a great deal more (especially now, since ram prices are sky-high), and give negligible if any performance gains. Heck, even 256 mb is still primarily a marketing gimmick. Reply
413xram - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkThey (ATI) are using the same technology that their previous cards are using. They pretty much just added more transistors to perform more functions at a higher speed. I am willing to bet my paycheck that they spent no where close to 400 million dollars to run neck and neck with nvidia in performance. I guess "virtually nothing" is an overstatement. My apologies.
Phiro - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkWhere do you get your info that ATI spent "virtually nothing"? Reply
413xram - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkBoth cards perform brilliantly. They are truly a huge step in graphics processing. One problem I forsee though,is that Nvidia spent 400 million dollars into development of their new nv40 technology, while ATI spent virtually nothing to have the same performance gains. Economically that is a hard pill for Nvidia to swallow.
It is true that Nvidia's card has the 3.0 pixel shading, unfortunatly though, they are banking on hardware that is not supported upon release of the card. In dealing with video cards from a consumers standpoint that is a hard sell. I have learned from the past that future possibilties of technology in hardware does nothing for me today. Not to mention the power supply issue that does not help neither.
Nvidia must find a way to get better performance out of their new card, I can't believe I'am saying that after seeing the specs that it already performs at, or it may be a long, HOT, and expensive summer for them.
P.S. Nvidia. A little advice. Speed up the release on your 512 mb card. That would definetly sell me. Overclocking your 6800 is something that 90% of us in this forum would do anyway. Reply
theIrish1 - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - link
heh, whatever.. whatever, and whatever. I love the fanboyisms....
I admit I am a fan of ATI cards. I bought a 9700pro and a 9500pro(in my secondary gaming rig) when they first came out, and an 8500 "pro" before that...but now I want to upgrade again. I am keeping an open mind. After looking at benchmarks, it is clear the both cards have their wins and losses depending on the test. I don't think there is a clear cut winner. nVidia got there by new innovation/technology. ATI got there by optimizing "older" technology.
At this point, with pricing being the same.. I think I still have to lean to the ATI cards. Main reasons being heat & power consumption. If the 6800U was $75 or $100 cheaper, I would probably go with that. It will be interesting to see where the 6850 falls benchmark wise, and also in pricing. If the 6850 takes the $500 pricepoint, where will that leave the 6800U? $450? Or with the 6850 be $550?
Something else about the x800Pro (which by the way, alot of the readers/posters seem to be getting confused as to what they are talking about between the Pro and XT models). Anyway, there are a few online stores out there taking pre-orders still for the x800PRO.... for $500+. I thought the Pro was going to go at $400 and the XT at $500...?!?
413xram - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkReply
Pumpkinierre - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkOn the fabrication o the two Gpus- the tech report:
"Regardless, transistor counts are less important, in reality, than die size, and we can measure that. ATI's chips are manufactured by TSMC on a 0.13-micron, low-k "Black Diamond" process. The use of a low-capacitance dielectric can reduce crosstalk and allow a chip to run at higher speeds with less power consumption. NVIDIA's NV40, meanwhile, is manufactured by IBM on its 0.13-micron fab process, though without the benefit of a low-k dielectric."
The extra transistors of the 6800U might be taken up with the cinematic encoding/rendering embedded chip. Although ATI claim encoding in their X800p/XT blurb, I havent seen much yet to distinguish it from the 9800p in this field. The Tech report checked power consumption at the wall for their test systems and the 6800s ramp up the power a lot quicker with gpu speed so I'm not too hopeful about the overclock to 520Mhz and 6800u extreme gpu yields. Still, maybe a new stepping or 90nm SOI shrink might help (I noticed both manufacturers shied away from 90nm).
Anyway brilliant video cards from North America. Congratulations ATI and Nvidia!
NullSubroutine - Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - linkIf it was nice sarcasm I can laugh, if it was nasty sarcasm you can back off. I can see it would be simple for me to overlook the map used, however no indication to what Atech used. One could assume or someone could ask for the real answer and if they are really lucky they will get a smart ass remark.
After checking through 10 different reviews I found similar results to Atech when they had 25 bots, THG had none.
Next time save us both the hassle and just say THG didnt use bots, and Atech probably did. Reply
TrogdorJW - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link#54 - Think about things for a minute. Gee... I wonder why THG and AT got such different scores on UT2K4.... Might it be something like the selection of map and the demo used? Nah, that would be too simple. /sarcasm
From THG: "For our tests in UT2004 we used our own timedemo on the map Assault-Torlan (no bots). All quality options are set to maximum."
No clear indication of what was used for the map or demo on AT, but I'm pretty sure that it was also a home-brewed demo, and likely on a different map and perhaps with a different number of players. Clearly, though, it was not the same demo as THG used... unless THG is in the habit of giving their benchmarking demos out? Didn't think so.
I see questions like this all the time. Unless two sites use the exact same settings, it's almost impossible to directly compare their scores. There is no conspiracy, though. Both sites pretty much say the same thing: close match, with the edge going to ATI right now, especially in DX9, while NV still reigns supreme in OGL. Reply
TrogdorJW - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkNice matchup we've got here! Just what we were all hoping for. Unfortunately, there are some disappointing trends I see developing....
ShaderMark 2.0, we see many instances where the R420 is about 25% faster than the NV40. Let's see... 520 MHz vs 400 MHz. 'Nuf said, I think. Too bad for Nvidia that they have 222 million transistors, so they're not likely to be able to reach 500 MHz any time soon. (Or if they can, then ATI can likely reach 600+ MHz.)
How about the more moderately priced card matchup? The X800 Pro isn't looking that attractive at $400. 25% more price gets you 33% more pipelines, which will probably help out on games that process a lot of pixels. And the Pro also has 4 vertex pipelines compared to 6? The optimizations make it better than a 9800XT, but not by a huge margin. The X800 SE with 8 pipelines is likely going to be about 20% faster than an 9800XT. Hopefully, it will come in at a $200 price point, but I'm not counting on that for at least six months. (Which is why I recently purchased a $200 9800 Pro 128.)
The Nvidia lineup is currently looking a little nicer. The 6800 Ultra, Ultra Special, and GT all come with 16 pipelines, and there's talk of a lower clocked card for the future. If we can get a 16 pipeline card (with 6 vertex pipelines) for under $250, that would be pretty awesome. That would be a lot like the 5900 XT cards. Anyone else notice how fast the 9800 Pro prices dropped when Nvidia released the 5900 XT/SE? Hopefully, we'll see more of that in the future.
Bottom line has to be that for most people, ATI is still the choice. (OpenGL gamers, Linux users, and professional 3D types would still be better with Nvidia, of course.) After all, the primary benefit of NV40 over R420 - Shader Model 3.0 - won't likely come into play for at least six months to a year. Not in any meaningful way, at least. By then, the fall refresh and/or next spring will be here, and ATI could be looking at SM3.0 support. Of course, adding SM3 might just knock the transistor counts of ATI's chips up into the 220 million range, which would kill their clock speed advantage.
All told, it's a nice matchup. I figure my new 9800 Pro will easily last me until the next generation cards come out, though. By then I can look at getting an X800 Pro/XT for under $200. :) Reply
NullSubroutine - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkI forgot to ask if anyone else noticed a huge difference (almost double) between AnandTechs UnrealTourment 2003 scores and that of Toms Hardware?
(Its not the CPU difference, because the A64 3200+ had a baseline score of ~278 and the 3.2 P4 had a ~247 on a previous section.)
So what gives? Reply
NullSubroutine - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkThe guy talking about the 400mhz and the 550mhz I have this to say.
I agree with the other guy about the transistor count.
Dont forget that ATi's cards used to be more powerful per clock speed compared to Nvidia a generation or two ago. So dont be babbling fanboy stuff.
I would agree with that one guy (the # escapes me) about the fanboy stuff, but I said it first! On this thread anyways. Reply
wassup4u2 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link#30 & 38, I believe that while the ATI line is fabbed at TSMC, NVidia is using IBM for their NV40. I've heard also that yields at IBM aren't so good... which might not bode well for NVidia. Reply
quanta - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link> #14, I think it has more to do with the fact those OpenGL benchmarks are based on a single engine that was never fast on ATI hardware to begin with.
Not true. ATI's FireGL X2 and Quadro FX 1100 were evenly matched in workstation OpenGL tests[1], which do not use Quake engines. Considering FireGL X2 is based on the Radeon 9800XT and Quadro FX 1100 is based on GeForce FX 5700 Ultra, such result is unacceptable. If I were an ATI boss, I would have made sure the OpenGL driver team would not make such a blunder, especially when R420 still sucks in most OpenGL games compared to GeFocre 6800 Ultra cards.
[1] http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040323/index... Reply
AlexWade - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkFrom my standpoint the message is clear: nVidia is no longer THE standard in graphic cards. Why do I say that? It half the size, it requires less power, it has less transistors, and the performance is about the same. Even if the performance was slightly less, ATI would still be winner. Anyway, whatever, its not like these benchmarks will deter the hardcore gotta-have-it-now fanboys.
Its not like I'm going to buy either. Maybe this will lower the prices of all the other video cards. $Dreams$ Reply
rsaville - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkIf any 6800 users are wondering how to make their 6800 run the same shadows as the 5950 in the benchmark see this post:
Also if you want to make your GeForceFX run the same shadows as the rest of the PS2.0 capable cards then find a file called driverConfig.lua in the homeworld2\bin directory and remove line 101 that disables fragment programs. Reply
raskren - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkI wonder if this last line of AGP cards will ever completely saturate the AGP 8X bus. It would be interesting to see a true PCI-Express card compared to the same AGP 8X counterpart.
Remember when Nvidia introduced the MX440 (or was it 460?) with an 8X AGP connector...what a joke. Reply
sisq0kidd - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkThat was the cheesiest line #46, but very true... Reply
sandorski - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkThere is only 1 clear winner here, the Consumer!
ATI and NVidia are running neck-neck. Reply
rms - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link"the near-to-be-released goodlooking PS 3.0 Far Cry update "
When is that patch scheduled for? I recall seeing some rumour it was due in September...
rms Reply
Fr0zeN - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkYeah I agree, the GT looks like it's gonna give the x800P a run for its money. On a side note, the differences between P and XT versions seem to be greater than r9800's, hmm.
In the end it's the most overclockable $200 card that'll end up in my comp. There's no way I'm paying $500 for something that I can compensate for by turning the rez down to 10x7... Raw benchmarks mean nothing if it doesn't oc well! Reply
Doop - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkThe cards seem very close, I tend to favor nVidia now since they have superior multi monitor and professional 3D drivers and I regret buying my Fire GL X1.
It's strange ATi didn't announce a 16 pipeline card orginally, it will be interesting to see in a month or two who actually ends up delivering cards.
I mean if they're being made in significant quantities they'll be at your local store with a reduced 'street' price but if it's just a paper launch they'll just be at Alienware, Dell (with a new PC only) or $500 if you can find one. Reply
jensend - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link#17, the Serious Engine has nothing to do with the Q3 engine; Nvidia's superior OpenGL performance is not dependent on any handful of engines' particular quirks.
Zobar is right; contra Jibbo, the increased flexibility of PS3 means that for many 2.0 shader programs a PS3 version can achieve equivalent results with a lesser performance hit.
As far as power goes, I'm surprised NV made such a big deal out of PSU requirements, as its new cards (except the 6800U Extremely Short Production Run Edition/6850U/Whatever they end up calling that part) compare favorably wattage-wise to the 5950U and don't pull all that much more power than the 9800XT. Both companies have made a big performance per watt leap, and it'll be interesting to see how the mid-range and value cards compare in this respect. Reply
blitz - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link"Of course, we will have to wait and see what happens in that area, but depending on what the test results for our 6850 Ultra end up looking like, we may end up recommending that NVIDIA push their prices down slightly (or shift around a few specs) in order to keep the market balanced."
It sounds as if you would be giving nvidia advice on their pricing strategy, somehow I don't think they would listen nor be influenced by your opinion. It could be better phrased that you would advise consumers to wait for prices to drop or look elsewhere for better price\performance ratio. Reply
Cygni - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkHmmmm, interesting. I really dont see where anyone can draw the conclusion that the x800 Pro is CLEARLY the winner. The 6800 GT and x800 Pro traded game wins back and forth. There doesnt seem to be any clear cut winner to me. Wolf, JediA, X2, F1C, and AQ3 all went clearly to the GT... this isnt open and shut. Alot of the other tests were split depending on resolution/AA. On the other hand, I dont think you can say that the GT is clearly better than the x800 Pro either.
Personally, I will buy whichever one hits a reasonable price point first. $150-200. Both seem to be pretty equal, and to me, price matters far more. Reply
kherman - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkBRING ON DOOM 3!!!!!!
We all know inside that this is what ID was waiting for! Reply
Diesel - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link------------------
I think it is strange that the tested X800XT is clocked at 520 Mhz, while the 6800U, that is manufactured by the same taiwanese company and also has 16 pipelines, is set at 400 Mhz.
This could be because NV40 has 222M transistors vs. R420 at 160M transistors. I think the amount of power required and heat generated is proportional to transistor count and clock speed. Reply
edub82 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkI know this is an ATI article but that 6800 GT is looking very attractive. It beats the x800Pro on a fairly regular basis is a single slot and molex connector card and is starting at 400 and hopefully will go down a few dollars ;) in 6 months when i want to upgrade. Reply
Slaanesh - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link"Clearly a developer can have much nicer quality and exotic effects if he/she exploits these, but how many gamers will have a PS3.0 card that will run these extremely complex shaders at high resolutions and AA/AF without crawling to single-digit fps? It's my guess that it will be *at least* a year until games show serious quality differentiation between PS2.0 and PS3.0. But I have been wrong in the past..."
I dunnow.. When Morrowind got released, only he few GF3 cards on the market were able to show the cool pixel shader water effects and they did it well; at that time I was really pissed I went for the cheaper Geforce2 Ultra although it had some better benchmarks at a much lower price. I don't think I want make that mistake again and pay the same amount of money for a card that doesnt support the latest technology.. Reply
ZobarStyl - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkJibbo I thought that the dynamic branching capability as part of PS3.0 could make rendering a scene faster because it skips rendering unneccessary pixels and thus could offer an increase in performance, albeit a small one. In an interview one of the developers of Far Cry said that there weren't many more things that PS3.0 could do that 2.0 can't, but that 3.0 can do things in a single pass that a 2.0 shader would have to do in multiple passes. The way he described it, the real pretty effects can come in later but a streamlined (read: slightly faster) shader could very well improve NV40 scores as is. This seems kind of analogous to the whole 64-bit processor ordeal going on; Intel says you don't need it, but then most articles show higher scores from A64 chips when they are in a 64 bit OS, so basically if you streamline it you can run a little bit faster than in less efficient 32-bit.
In the end, it'll still be bitter fanboys fighting it out and buying whatever product their respective corporation feeds them, despite features or speeds or price or whatever. Personally, like I said before, I'll wait and see who really ends up earning my dollar.
Anyway, thanks for keeping me on my toes though, jib...I can't get lazy now... =) Reply
Barkuti - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkFrom my point of view, the 6800U is superior high end hardware. Folks, you don't need to be that intelligent to understand that if ATI needs 520 Mhz to "beat" nVidia's 400 MHz chip, as it will need to overclock proportionally to keep the same level of performance that means it will need a good bunch of extra MHz to stay at least on par on the overclocking front.
I think the final revision of the 6800U will manage 500 MHz overclocks or around (probably more if they deliberately set the initial clock low waiting for ATI), so ATI's hardware may need around 650 Mhz, which I doubt it'll make. As for the power requirements, sure ATI is the winner, but the nVidia's card can be fed with more standard PSU's than they claim; I just think they played on the safe side.
Oh, sure, power may be a limiting factor when oc'ing the 6800U, but the reality is that people who buy these kind of harware already has top end computer components (including the PSU), so no worries here also.
And finally speaking, I think PS 3.0 will make some additional difference. With the possibility to somewhat enhance shader performance and the superior displacement mapping effect, it may give it the edge in at least a handful of games. We'll see.
"Just my 2 cents"
Cheers Reply
Staples - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkEveryone be sure to check out Tom's review. Looks like the X800 did better here than it did against the 6800. I have seen other reviews and the X800 doesn't really seem as fast in comparison as it does here.
Anyway, it is a lot faster than I though. The 6800 was impressive but it seems that the reason it does really well in some games and not so great in others is because some games have NVIDIA specific code that the 6800 takes advantage of very well. Reply
UlricT - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkwtf? the GT is outperforming the Ultra in F1 Challenge? Reply
jibbo - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkAgree with you all the way on the fanboys, ZobarStyl.
Just wanted to point out that PS3.0 is not "faster" - it's simply an API. It allows longer and more complex shaders so, if anything, it's likely to be "slower." I'm guessing that designers who use PS3.0 heavily will see serious fill-rate problems on the 6800. These shaders will have potentially 65k+ instructions with dynamic branching, a minimum of 4 render targets, 32-bit FP minimum color format, etc - I seriosuly doubt any hardcore 3.0 shader programs will run faster than existing 2.0 shaders.
Clearly a developer can have much nicer quality and exotic effects if he/she exploits these, but how many gamers will have a PS3.0 card that will run these extremely complex shaders at high resolutions and AA/AF without crawling to single-digit fps? It's my guess that it will be *at least* a year until games show serious quality differentiation between PS2.0 and PS3.0. But I have been wrong in the past... Reply
T8000 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkI think it is strange that the tested X800XT is clocked at 520 Mhz, while the 6800U, that is manufactured by the same taiwanese company and also has 16 pipelines, is set at 400 Mhz.
This suggests a lot of headroom on the 6800U or a large overclock on the X800XT.
Also note that the 6800U scored much better on tomshardware.com (HALO 65FPS@1600x1200), but that can also be caused by their use of the 3.2 Ghz P4 instead of a 2.2 Ghz A64. Reply
ZobarStyl - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkI love seeing these fanboys announce each product as the best thing ever (same thing happened with the Prescott, Intel fanboys called it the end of AMD and the AMD guys laughed and called it a flamethrower) without actually reading the benches. NV won some, ATi won some. Most of the time it was tiny margins either way. Fanboys aside, this is gonna be a driver war nothing more. The biggest margin was on Far Cry, and I'm personally waiting on the faster PS3.0 to see what that bench really is. This is a great card but price drops and drivers updates will eventually show us the real victor. Reply
jibbo - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkIf I had to guess, DX10 and Longhorn will coincide with the release of new hardware from everyone. Reply
Akaz1976 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkJust thought of something. If i am reading AT review right, ATi now has milked the original Radeon9700 architecture for nearly 2 years (sure says a lot of good things about the ArtX design team).
Anyone know when the true next gen chip can be expected?
Akaz Reply
Ilmater - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link---------------------------------------
Hearing about the 6850 and the other Emergency-Extreme-Whatever 6800 variants that are floating about irritates me greatly. Nvidia, you are losing your way!
Instead of spending all that time, effort and $$ just to try to take the "speed champ" title, make your shit that much cheaper instead! If your 6800 Ultra was $425 instead of $500, that would give you a hell of alot more market share and $$ than a stupid Emergency Edition of your top end cards... We laugh at Intel for doing it, and now you're doing it too, come fricking on...
This is ridiculous!! What do you think the XT Platinum Edition from ATI is? The only difference is that nVidia released first, so it's more obvious when they do it than when ATI does. I'm not really a fanboy of either, but you shouldn't dog nVidia for something that everyone does.
Plus, if nVidia dropped their prices, ATI would do the same thing. Then nVidia would be right back where it was before, but they wouldn't be making any money on the cards. Reply
adntaylor - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkI wish they'd also tested with an nForce3 motherboard. nVidia have managed some very interesting performance enhancements on the AGP to HT tunnel that only works with the nVidia graphics cards. That might have pushed the 6800 in front - who knows! Reply
UlricT - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkHey... Though the review rocks, you guys desperately need an editor for spelling and grammar! Reply
Jeff7181 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkThis pretty much settles it. With the excellent comparision between architectures, and the benchmark scores to prove the advantages and disadvantages of the architecture... my next card will be made by ATI.
NV40 sure has a lot of potential, one might say it's ahead of it's time, supporting SM 3.0 and being so programmable. However, with a product cycle of 6 months to a year, being ahead of it's time is more of a disadvantage in this case. People don't care what it COULD do... people care what it DOES do... and the R420 seems to do it better. I just hope my venture into the world of ATI doesn't turn into driver hell. Reply
NullSubroutine - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkIm fan boy for neither company and objectively I can say the cards are equal. Some games the ATI cards are faster other games the Nvidia cards are faster. So it all depends on the game you play to which one is better and the price of the card you are looking for. (Hmm, maybe motherboard companies could make 2 AGP slots...)
About the arguement of the PS 2.0/3.0...
2.0 Cards will be able to play games with 3.0, they may not have full functionality or they may run it slower. This will remain to be seen till games begin to use 3.0. However...
The one thing bad for Nvidia in my eyes is the pixel shader quality that can be seen in Farcry, whether this is a game or driver glitch it is still unknown.
I forgot to add I like that the ATI cards use less power, I dont want to have to pay for another PSU ontop of already high prices of video cards. I would also like to see a review again a month from now when newer drivers come out to see how much things have changed. Reply
l3ored - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkpschhh, did you see the unreal 3 demo? in the video i saw, it looked like it ran at about 5fps imagine running halo on a gfx 5200. however you could run it if you were to turn of halo's PS 2 effects. i think thats how it's going to be with unreal 3 Reply
Slaanesh - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkSince PS 3.0 is not supported by the X800 hardware, does this mean that those extremely impressive graphical features showed in the Unreal 3 tech demo (NV40 launch) and the near-to-be-released goodlooking PS 3.0 Far Cry update are both NOT playable on the X800?? This would be a huge disadvantage for ATi since alot of the upcoming topgames will support PS3.0! Reply
l3ored - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linki agree phiro, personally i think im gonna get the one that hits $200 first (may be a while) Reply
Phiro - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkHearing about the 6850 and the other Emergency-Extreme-Whatever 6800 variants that are floating about irritates me greatly. Nvidia, you are losing your way!
Instead of spending all that time, effort and $$ just to try to take the "speed champ" title, make your shit that much cheaper instead! If your 6800 Ultra was $425 instead of $500, that would give you a hell of alot more market share and $$ than a stupid Emergency Edition of your top end cards... We laugh at Intel for doing it, and now you're doing it too, come fricking on... Reply
gordon151 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link#14, I think it has more to do with the fact those OpenGL benchmarks are based on a single engine that was never fast on ATI hardware to begin with. Reply
araczynski - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link12: personally i think the TNT line was better then the Voodoo line. I think they bought them out only to get rid of the competition, which was rather stupid because i think they would have died out sooner or later anyway because nvidia was just better. I would guess that perhaps they bought them out cuz that gave them patent rights and they woudln't have to worry about being sued for probably copying some of the technology :) Reply
l3ored - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkonly the 800xt was winning, the pro usually came after the 6800's Reply
Keeksy - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkYeah, it is funny how ATi excels in DirectX, yet loses in the OpenGL bechmarks. Looks like I'm going to have both an NVIDIA and an ATi card. The first to play Doom3, the other to play HL2. Reply
peroni - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkI wish there was some testing done with overclocking.
There are quite a few spelling errors in there Derek.
Did I miss something or I did not see any mention of prices for these 2 cards? Reply
Glitchny - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link#11 thats what everyone thought when Nvidia bought all the people from 3dFX and look what happened with that. Reply
araczynski - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linki agree with 5 and 10, still the same old stalemate as before, one is good at one thing, the other is good at another. i guess i'll let price dictate my next purchase.
but ati sure did take the wind out of nvidia's sails with these numbers.
i wish one of the two would buy the other one out and combine the technologies, one would think they would have a nice product in the end. Reply
eBauer - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link#8 - OpenGL still kicks butt on the nVidia boards. Think of all the Doom3 fans that will buy the 6800's....
As for myself, I will wait and see how the prices pan out. For now leaning on the X800. Reply
ViRGE - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - link...On the virge of ATI's R420 GPU launch...
Derek, I'm so touched that you thought of me. ;) Reply
Tallon - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkOk, so let's review. with the x800XT having better image quality, better framerates, only taking up one slot for cooling and STILL being cooler, and only needing one molex connecter (uses less power than the 9800 XT, actually), who in their right mind would choose a 6800u over this x800XT? I mean, seriously, NVIDIA is scrambling to release a 6850u now which is exactly identical to a 6800u, it's just overclocked (which means more power and higher temperatures). This is ridiculous. ATI is king. Reply
noxipoo - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkATi wins again. Reply
Akaz1976 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkDang! On one hand, I am saddened by the review. My recently purchased (last month) Radeon9800PRO would be at the bottom of the chart in most of the tests carried out in this review :(
On the other hand this sure bode well for my next vid card upgrade. Even if it is a few months off! :)
Akaz Reply
saechaka - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkwow. very impressive. i was set on getting an nvidia but just don't know anymore Reply
Phiro - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkThe message is clear; Matrox has failed! Reply
Brickster - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkShow me the money! Reply
MemberSince97 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkAdvanced features are worthless if your driver team keeps breaking them.. Reply
f11 - Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - linkkinda starting to feel sorry for nvidia now. each generation they stuff their cards with more feautures than they need to, end end up with a slower and more featured card. If anyone's expecting SM3 to be a big hit, remember that the original FX line had lots of extensions to DX9 and they never really made much a difference. Reply


text:
Amazon Kindle Fire: A $199 Kindle Tabletby Jason Inofuentes on 9/28/2011 9:54 AM EST
81 Comments
Back to Article
quiksilvr - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - link*Starts digging grave*
Seriously, how can they compete with this now? Reply
lurker22 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkWell, lower their price as a starter... Reply
Spazweasel - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - link"We're losing money with each unit, but we'll make up for it with volume."
Most phones and pads, when you take into account the need to recover R&D costs (which can run into the hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars), are selling with almost no margin or profit. The sellers are depending upon their portion of the app/book/media sales through their so-called "walled gardens" to sustain the business. But if nobody buys content through the producer's store... if everything is sideloaded or pirated... there is no profit to be made, and so the company stops making the phone/pad.
I would be very surprised if Amazon will make even a single penny on the Fire hardware sales. Reply
Spazweasel - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkStupid no-edit.
B&N is in worse shape financially than Amazon; they can't afford to have a Playbook Moment. They could sink a lot of money into subsidizing the Nook by selling below-cost, and it's a huge risk. Amazon can afford that; I don't think B&N can. Reply
SilthDraeth - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkYour assessment is a good one. However, I don't really believe Amazon is expecting people to buy to much media with these devices. Sure they want you to consume media. But ultimately, the device will lead to more overall sales of products through Amazon directly.
As it is, when I am in a store, I look up the product on Amazon, to read user reviews, and check prices. If reviews are bad, I look for an alternative that gets good reviews. Check prices in store, if the product is available.
9 times out of 10, Amazon is the better deal.
I think getting more of these tablets into hands of consumers will grow their business even more. Reply
Zoomer - Sunday, October 02, 2011 - linkYou just have to remember that it's wifi only. Reply
DanD85 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkYour argument of "millions, or even billions of dollars R&D costs" hold no ground! Why? Because the Fire is just a product from an ODM, Amazon only buy from that ODM and with their buying power I don't believe they have to sustain any hardware loss on this.
Secondly, with the release of the Xiaomi phone with the roughly the same performance with the galaxy tab 2 but half the price prove that WE, the consumer simply "believe" the cost of the product is what the manufacturer say without knowing anything better. Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkSure, but Amazon is the first tablet vendor other than Apple with a comprehensive set of first-party services behind it. They've got their appstore, their music store, their TV and movie services, their book store, their cloud syncing, all of it. None of the other tablet offerings have that all as first-party services under the same roof except Apple. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkI would be surprised if Quanta would sell for much less than $200, certainly not enough for Amazon to have any appreciable margin on the Fire. Xiaomi is an interesting case of an Asian company using its home team advantage to bring costs down considerably. But it probably doesn't have the margins that Samsung has, let alone Apple. The key is what the market will pay for a device. Apple as mastered the art of finding a price point and owning it. The iPad is obviously a good example of this, but consider too the MacBook Pro 15. Most people would have trouble paying $1500 for a 15" Windows laptop, because decent models can be had for half that. Yet MBP15 sales have been rock solid for years. $750 is about what a person will consider spending on a Windows laptop, but $1500 is easily considered for a Mac.
But no one is immune from price disruptions. And if the Fire does rise to the top of the Android heap, it may be enough to shake down Apple's pricing. Reply
geedavey - Wednesday, October 05, 2011 - linkI read yesterday that the $199 Fire costs $209 to make. Reply
fishman - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThe Color Nook is due for a replacement. If an updated one can match the specs, and drop the price, they could do fine. Especially if the Amazon tablet is too "locked in". Reply
alent1234 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkthere you go with specs
this will kill the Nook Reply
jasontech - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkNot good for B&N and bookstores. Reply
cjb110 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkPity the Fire seems to be US only :(
In the UK we do get the new Kindle, but for £89 not the £52/$79 US price. Reply
r3loaded - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkIf you add on the 20% VAT to £52, that gives £62.40. Which means we're getting ripped off to the tune of almost £27 :/ Reply
JoeMcJoe - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkDon't forget that all US prices do not include the sales tax.
Its 9.5% where I live.
The UK price DOES include the sales tax/VAT. Reply
kmmatney - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkOrder from a different state for no tax. I don;t think you have to pay tax in most states for Amazon. Reply
Spivonious - Monday, October 03, 2011 - linkYou have to pay sales in any state that charges sales tax. Amazon does not have to collect it in states where they do not have a physical presence.
Of course, nobody actually pays the tax. In Pennsylvania, you're supposed to submit a PA-1 form for things that you bought but did not pay sales tax on. It's completely unenforceable. Reply
JasperJanssen - Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - linkThere are continual proposals to change this situation, though -- one of them was with California, where they started considering amazon affiliates enough to make it a company with physical presence there. Amazon responded by cutting off their affiliate program in CA. The law was quickly repealed.
It's going to take federal action to really bring amazon to its knees on this score. Reply
Ushio01 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThe $79 is with ads the version without ads (which we get) is $109 - £69 plus 20% VAT is £82.80 so only £6.20 more expensive. Reply
JoeMcJoe - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkyep, all the new e-ink kindles include lots of advertising. Reply
marvdmartian - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkAgreed on the US only pity.
My niece just moved to Japan (to teach), and I'd love to get her one of the Kindle Fire's, as I know she was looking to get an e-reader before she left (but don't believe she did). She would LOVE the multi-media capabilities of the Fire, but when I contacted Amazon, they stated that not only is the Fire selling only the in the US, but that they are only supporting it's functions (buying material from Amazon, storage on the Amazon cloud, etc) in the US also.
Seems a little bit short sighted to me. :( Reply
etamin - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkso who is handling the 3G? and just curious why there is a ? next to the (2x Cortex A9s) in the spec chart. The OMAP 4430 does indeed have 2x Cortex A9s in it. Reply
z0mb13n3d - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkI think the '?' is because they might not sure if it does have the OMAP 4430 in it, although almost everything is pointing at that being the case. Reply
Wolfpup - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkAs the article says, they don't know for sure if that's what it's using.
Not bad hardware, but I'm done with Amazon and Kindle after the crazed right-wing moderation going on there... Reply
Craig234 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - link"Not bad hardware, but I'm done with Amazon and Kindle after the crazed right-wing moderation going on there... "
Hear, hear.
I've ended my near boycott after they made a deal with CA, but I'm still wary. Reply
A5 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThere is no 3G on this yet. I assume that's on the list for version 2... Reply
etamin - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkAh sorry about the wording. My question about 3G was actually meant to reference the Touch. Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkTo be honest, it's largely irrelevant who does the 3G service, since it's free once you've paid the up-front cost. It might only be relevant in terms of coverage; even performance isn't that big a deal when it's primarily used for whispersync of books.
In Canada, the 3G service is provided by Rogers. But to be honest, I find that I leave wireless turned off (all wireless, 3G and wifi) 99% of the time on my Kindle 3. It drains the battery, and I only need it when I want to buy a book, it's useless the rest of the time.
In hindsight, I would have bought the wifi, not the 3G. Reply
Lord 666 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - link;) Reply
Choppedliver - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkI'm sure it does, since Plants vs Zombies is clearly displayed at the bottom. Much more intensive than angry birds.
And amazon has their own android app store.
Anyone who thinks this is going to be purely an e-reader/movie watching device with all that hardware inside is delusional. Reply
Impulses - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkIt's gonna be another Nook option to those that don't mind a little hacking. Though with full featured (and larger) tablets approaching $300 (Archos, sales, etc.), the market for this isn't gonna last long. Reply
ImSpartacus - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkNo need, it has the Amazon Appstore.
Most high profile apps are available for the same price. And you can't beat those free apps (Cut The Rope is free today).
Of course, the XDA crowd will root it and open up its functionality, but I think it will be a surprisingly functional $200 tablet out of the gate. Reply
gevorg - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThe Kindle Touch is awesome! I would still prefer iPad for entertainment, but will use the Kindle as a dedicated reading device that doesn't kill the eyes. Kindle Touch + iPad FTW. Reply
steven75 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkI'm thinking that's a good combo. Reply
kingbee1333 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkAlready preordered, tied in to amazon ecosystem via thier android app store, kindle books and videos, seems like a nobrainer at this price. 3g conectivity seems to be an oversight, but at the price and no contracts with the nice display and soild soc seems like a nobrainer for me. It's going ot be much less enticing for anyone already invested into apples ecosystem apps etc.
Seems like amazon is the first company to treat the hardware as a comodity of thier content. Where as other tablet makers are looking to profit from the hardware, and apple is looking to profit from hardware and content. Amazon was brillaint to make thier own app store. Google can't be happy with this. Reply
jecs - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkI am gladly surprised because I read on other site this device has an IPS matrix and all the features for $199. I don't need a tablet really but now I am glad this option is available. And I really hope this device to become a huge success to bring other options down in price.
Obviously I want to read a good review first and even hold it in my hands and use it, but it looks like the smartest move on the tablet market since the iPad was introduced.
It is even more simplistic in appearance than the iPad, but that I don't feel it resembles the Apple line. It is not an iPad COPY, it is even simpler, more feature and market oriented and that is just $199? Reply
munsie - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThe $200 price point sounds great, but is that with or without the special offers? Amazon clearly breaks out the price difference on the other models ($30), but the option is missing for the Fire. So does that mean that it only comes with the special offers or it only comes without? If it's without, it a much more attractive device. But I suspect it's with, considering how close it is in price to the other less capable models.
And as far as it being an iPad killer, I think it's too early to make claims like this. The PlayBook, which it's apparently based on, hasn't been killing the iPad. Granted, it's more expensive, but I suspect that's because RIM can't afford to subsidize it like Amazon can. Also, the iPad has a larger display. If the 7" tablet market takes off, Apple could decide to make a smaller iPad at a cheaper price.
One more thing -- when the first iPod touch came out in 2007, I remember $400 for the 16GB model. Today, the touch starts out at $229 and the $400 model has 64GB. The iPhone also got significantly cheaper (at least for the consumer) over the same period. I don't see why Apple wouldn't be able to make the iPad cheaper as well over time, especially if they figure out a way to subsidize some of the cost with either iTunes sales or with the carriers. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkSpecial Offers relies on the eink screensaver to display ads as unobtrusively as possible. Since the eink screens don't use power except on page turns, there's no battery hit. With no eink in the Fire, it's likely it has no Special Offers. As far as Apple trying to compete on price, Apple makes money on every single thing it sells, they prefer not to subsidize because the risk of failure is too high. Instead their content sales just add to profits. More likely is a model where they begin selling old models at discounted rates as component costs come down, while selling a newer model at the original price. This may drive iPod Touch prices down though, since 7" makes a much more compelling media experience than 3.5".
Thanks for the comments, keep'em coming! Reply
jecs - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkGreat point for the iPod Touch Vs Kindle price/use.
I already have an iPod Touch 2G and I have no plans/need to update unless it dies. I am using it mostly for music. But now the Kindle with an 7' IPS screen is the right size for me at a lower price than the iPod Touch. It is not a direct replace for the Touch for me but is a better device for internet browsing and movies.
I don't know how great gaming will be on the Kindle as Amazon doesn't promote the graphic processor(?) but either I don't think they expect this to be a real gaming tablet. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkIf it is the OMAP 4430 then it'll be as well performing at gaming as any other tablet out there, bar the iPad. Reply
slashbinslashbash - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkSo instead of web browsing using up only the user's bandwidth, it also uses up Amazon's bandwidth.... twice (once inbound, once outbound, although they will probably implement caching to reduce some of the inbound). As mentioned in the article, download speed does not really seem to be the bottleneck when it comes to Web browsing on tablets (although CPU+GPU time will be less eaten up by smaller graphics that don't need resizing to display). The biggest problem is that this system will require a long-term dedication of resources on Amazon's part. Same with the free lifetime 3G service on some Kindles.... Amazon sells you the Kindle once but is required to maintain services for it indefinitely. This is not a good business model from Amazon (and of course, at $200 they can hardly be making anything from the hardware, if they're not actually losing money on it). Amazon has awesome sales numbers but barely eeks out a profit from its operations. It is amazingly well-run, but retailing is always a race to the bottom on pricing. This tablet doesn't seem like it will help much; most everybody who wants an e-reader already has a normal Kindle, so the Kindle Fire won't add many incremental e-book sales. Android apps could turn into a profit center, but they have a long way to go before their sales catch up with Apple.
All that said, as a long-term Apple fan, user and shareholder, this tablet does concern me to a certain degree. 7" is half the screen area of 10", and there are other apparent flaws, but selling at a 60% discount to the cheapest iPad can make up for a whole lot of flaws. I think that Apple will have to drop pricing to compete, maybe by keeping the iPad 2 in the lineup at a reduced price when they introduce the iPad 3. Other Android tablets have failed because of price and marketing reach. The Nook Color has been limited mostly by B&N's flawed marketing (if they sold it as a full-fledged Android tablet instead of a colorful e-reader, I think it would do better). Amazon has both problems fixed, and also has the value-add of their own curated App Store. I think that the Kindle Fire will easily take the 2nd place position in tablet sales.
This creates an interesting dynamic between Amazon and Google. Amazon is basically forking Android with this tablet. Google can't be happy if Amazon takes over the #1 Android Tablet position with a non-official Android tablet. I would personally be pleased if Amazon purchased WebOS from HP and put it into the Kindle Fire.... with whatever tweaks Amazon sees fit to add. I don't want to see WebOS die, and nobody has yet seen the Amazon version of Android, so it's unclear what we're going to be getting. I guess that will be the biggest question mark heading into November.... Amazon has no experience with non-web-based UI design. I'm sure they've got a ton of smart OS hackers making their cloud work, but that doesn't always translate into being able to create a nice UI. The "bookshelf" UI looks very attractive, but it might get clunky when you try to scale it. I'm not such a big fan of Apple's "Rows of Icons" UI, but it always runs smoothly and it's fairly easy to keep things organized and find what you want. I'm looking forward to AnandTech's review of the Kindle Fire. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkRemember that when Amazon caches a tablet optimized version of, say, Anandtech, it only updates the deltas throughout the day and can now offer that single cached copy to anyone that asks for it. So when millions of readers visit the site the cached copy is the perfect size to minimize bandwidth usage. And while you're right that this is a big commitment, Amazon has positions themselves to be a powerhouse in cloud services for some time. Their rates on storage and bandwidth alone are enough to draw clients as varied as Apple and Lilly.
I will be curious if Silk shows up on other devices, phones for instance could take fuller advantage of the potential, especially when you consider that a decade after mobile versions of sites started to appear, most are anemic versions of their desktop counterparts.
Thanks for the comment! Reply
slashbinslashbash - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkYour example of Anandtech actually makes it worse for Amazon. I am logged in to AT and I am shown a personalized view of every page ("Welcome slashbinslashbash!"). There are a lot of sites that work like this, and for any of them the caching option just won't work -- Amazon will have no choice but to pull down a full version of each page the user loads. They can still cache graphics (which presumably don't change from user to user) but they are still going to require tons of storage and bandwidth to handle this. I know they're Amazon and their cloud is the biggest, but still, if they're going to ever make a profit off the Kindle Fire then they may want to reconsider whether Silk is a good solution. It is a small plus at best for the end-user, and a loss for Amazon. Reply
batmanuel - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThat personalization is only a small element of the page. The graphics and article text are all going to be the same for various users, so those parts can be reused. Reply
slashbinslashbash - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThe graphics are the same and won't be re-downloaded by Amazon, but the article text is part of the same HTML file that the personalized element is part of. Amazon can't send a request for just the top part of the HTML file from Anandtech's web servers, and Anandtech's servers can't send it; it's all or nothing (barring, of course, any AJAX components).
In any case, it's still using bandwidth from Amazon to the end-user, which Amazon wouldn't have to pay for if they used a traditional browser on the Kindle. I know Amazon has bandwidth to spare, but it still costs them money in the end. Reply
batmanuel - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkHTML is often the smallest part of most web pages. The HTML for this particular webpage is 123 kb. It's all of the other elements of the page: Flash elements, graphics, advertisements, stylesheets, etc. that can be reused, and those can be reused easily since they are always the same. Tiny HTML files are nothing for a company like Amazon that gives away online storage and music streaming. Reply
batmanuel - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkThat should read: ."..stylesheets, etc. that use up all the bandwidth." Reply
empedocles - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkActually, Silk is how Amazon will make money, a huge pile of money over time. Because of the way Silk works, Amazon will be able to capture complete web usage data for all the Kindle Fire users. They will then be able to correlate this with each person's content buying habits, content usage patterns, Amazon purchase info, Fire app usage info, etc. And Amazon will sell this highly personal data, similar to how Facebook sells highly detailed personal information on each user. Silk provides a high value revenue stream for Amazon and helps make it possible to offer the Kindle Fire at $199. Hence one can see that Silk is a critical component of the Fire's business model and that Fire might have been priced significantly higher if Amazon hadn't included Silk. Like it or not, selling user data seems to be par for the course for most tech companies. Silk is the technology that enables the capture of highly profitable web usage information for Amazon. To present it as anything else is at least in part disingenuous. Reply
slashbinslashbash - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkHmm, that has a depressing ring of truth to it. I wonder if it will be possible to disable that part of Silk. I for one am already tired enough of our Google overlords; I don't think I want to welcome Amazon as a secondary one. I wonder if they are going to make Silk available on other platforms too? You're right, that could end up being a significant revenue stream. Reply
synaesthetic - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkroot it and use a different browser. :) Reply
MetroBodyWork - Sunday, October 02, 2011 - linkI have it on very good authority that Amazon has a VERY strict policy about NEVER sharing ANY of the data they collect from users with any other company. But, believe what you will. :) Reply
spigzone - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkWho would Amazon sell the information to?
Selling the information could only help a competitor as Amazon competes with EVERYONE in the retail and entertainment delivery space.
They are going to use the data strictly in house to continue to expand and fine tune their hegemony.
With the Kindle Fire mainly by providing an immediate and instant Amazon buying opportunity for anything sellable the user shows in interest in. Reply
MetroBodyWork - Sunday, October 02, 2011 - linkExactly :) There is no benefit to them to every sell that data. It would ruin their business like no other. Reply
NCM - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkslashbinslashbash writes:
"All that said, as a long-term Apple fan, user and shareholder, this tablet does concern me to a certain degree. 7" is half the screen area of 10", and there are other apparent flaws, but selling at a 60% discount to the cheapest iPad can make up for a whole lot of flaws. I think that Apple will have to drop pricing to compete, maybe by keeping the iPad 2 in the lineup at a reduced price when they introduce the iPad 3."
I don't think so. Apple has 29 million unit sales, and counting, to say that the iPad is well priced. Although still very interesting, the Fire is a much lower spec (storage, screen size, connectivity) device than the iPad 2,. These aren't "flaws"—they're differences. The Fire doesn't so much compete with the iPad as extend the tablet market. I suspect that the Fire may offer enough to create a viable 7" mobile device market, one that has so far has suffered from being too big for the pocket and too small compared to the iPad.
Oh sure, there will certainly be some buyers who might have stretched for a $500 iPad but will now happily choose a $200 Fire instead, but I doubt that the demand overlap is very consequential.
On the other hand, if I were B&N, I'd be really worried about where the Nook fits in. Reply
taltamir - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - link"Web browsing on mobile devices is still largely CPU bound"
Talking as someone who travels a lot for business, this is absolutely not the case. Most hotels and motels provide a very poor internet connection with ridiculously low speeds. Even airport wifi is often very very slow.
Performance gains/slowdowns based on CPU speed that look impressive in my home with 25/25mbps fios become totally irrelevant when it takes minutes to load a page due to ISP being slow. And if whispersync compressess that 3MB jpg image to 50kb and looks indistinguishable on the kindle fire then it would be a wonderful thing for people on the move. Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkServices like Silk are more about eliminating round trips than saving bandwidth, and it also saves CPU time by pre-processing and rendering this stuff.
Silk sounds much like Opera's acceleration service, offloading chunks of the work to the cloud to ensure expensive processing and round-trips happen on a fast server, except much more sophisticated. Reply
name99 - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linktaltamir is correct, and the statement in the article is foolish.
This sort of things already exists today. People have mentioned Opera, but other ways of doing the same thing are to route URLs through either Google Reader or Instapaper. Both of these rewrite the page, remove all the extraneous crap, render JS on their proxy, etc, and give both a substantial speed boost to a page AND make it look better on a small screen. For example most blogs provide a column of content, along with one or two side columns of filler that are best stripped for small screens.
The difference is really obvious for 3G, but it is noticeable even on home wifi because the CPU load has been transferred to a much powerful server --- all the mobile is doing is rendering a simple HTML page.
Part of the issue is that "web page" is a vague concept. For some of us, our primary web pages are blogs and news sites, which tend to have a particular data and CPU profile, while for others of us, our primary web pages are things like Google Docs, or Facebook, which have very different profiles. Tools that work well for some people are useless for others --- but that doesn't mean the tool as a whole is useless, just that it is useless for that particular web page.
Amazon has not mentioned this in their PR so far, presumably because they don't want to raise even more antagonism. But I would not be at all surprised to learn that, in time, they offer the same sort of functionality with Silk (likely on an opt-in basis) --- the ability to provide rewritten, reflowed pages, like Instapaper or Safari Reader, which can be delivered a lot faster to the device, AND, for many pages, provide a more usable experience. Reply
Rick83 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkHardwarewise this sounds similar to the new Archos tablets, only with more lock-in and less Video playback capabilities and external ports.
Why is there no mention of the Archos launch on Anandtech anyway?
The device as usual is launching with some issues, but spec-wise it looks quite solid, and the HD-video playback is going to be unrivaled - and only the Kindle Fire will compete on cost. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkNot sure which Archos you're referring to, their most impressive tablets, the G9, have been covered in Pipeline and we hope to get our hands on the 1.5 GHz variants when they're released next month. Is there another Archos tablet we haven't heard about that merits coverage? Reply
Rick83 - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkNope, that's the one.
Little note: The 1.5 GHz OMAP 4460 won't arrive until next year, due to TI not being able to get the chips out earlier.
The launch 'turbo' versions will be OMAP 4430 clocked at 1.2 GHz. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkCan you get me a source on that? Reply
Rick83 - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkA quick googling leads me here, which references the Archos Facebook page:
Possibly Samsung will get 4460s ahead of Archos (due to being a more interesting customer), so there may be 4460s appearing before the end of the year in some smart phones. Reply
shin0bi272 - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkI thought that the whole reason the kindle was supposed to be cool was the E-ink stuff. So it didnt use batteries once the page had been displayed etc. Not that color isnt a great upgrade but cant you do colored e-ink? This seems like it will just get lost in the shuffle to me. Its another ipad knock off. Reply
Gazziza - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkPerhaps you missed it but there's also the new Kindle Touch and updated Kindle that will be released as well... Reply
shin0bi272 - Friday, September 30, 2011 - linkI did miss that ... mainly because I don't keep up with tablets too much since I don't really need one. Can't help but get SOME news about specific tablets (i.e. ipad, and now this fire) but I dont go looking for it. I just tend to hear some stuff and remember it then see the same company releasing something completely different and wonder why they changed to look like everyone else. I do hope the new kindle will have color e-ink because I think that's the coolest idea in a long time. Reply
danjw - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkIf you could also connect it to a TV, I think it would be a good deal. As is, I am not so sure. Reply
tviceman - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - linkI hope they don't skimp on the hardware with the eventual full sized Kindle. It would be nice to see it with more storage and a better processor (Tegra3). Reply
synaesthetic - Wednesday, September 28, 2011 - link... but not useful until we get root and custom ROMs stripped of all Amazonian data-mining tools.
Cyanogenmod plz. Reply
secretmanofagent - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkIs anyone else concerned that the Silk browser will route traffic through Amazon? If you do a search for hair dyes for example, would Amazon now recommend it to you on their site? I just wonder how invasive the traffic being directed through them will be, not to mention being reliant on them for routing in the event of a failure on their end. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - linkIf there's a failure on their end then the browser defaults to normal operation and will likely behave just like the regular Android browser.
As far as whether Amazon will data mine your browsing information, they stated that this data will be anonymized and will be discarded after a certain amount of time. It's unclear just how true the anonymity part of that statement is, it would only make sense that they would consider your browsing history in the targeted advertisements they display when you're on one of their sites or in their e-mails and recommendations. However, the impression I get is that they recognize that browsing is a private matter. Where they want to get more information is in your purchases, so by providing a streamlined environment in which to consume digital media (the Fire) they can do a better job of targeting your interests. More sales of their media leads to better data for their ads. Reply
medi01 - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkWhy compare it to 8.9" Samsung tablet, when there is 7"? Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - linkUntil recently the 7" was a Froyo driven device with an anemic processor. The Galaxy Tab 7.0 Plus that was recently announced would make a much more suitable comparison, and we'll know more once we get them in house. Reply
Octavean - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkNice turn of a phrase there at the end. Very nice indeed.
Personally, I would like a larger 9" to 10" color screen version with free 3G for life at about ~$250 to ~$300 USD. I'd be all over that especially if it had a camera. The current lineup is nice though.
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - linkThanks!
I think free 3G for life on a media tablet is out of the question. The reason that they get away with it on their readers is that simple text is no big risk, but movies and music would definitely pose a threat. Reply
name99 - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - link"while providing specifications that match devices more than twice it's price. "
Hmm. If by "match" you mean
- no GPS
- no bluetooth
- no camera
- (apparently) no mic, or video out, or printing, or external keyboard, or any of the other sensors (orientation, compass, etc) in an iPad
- low-end GPU
- no obvious plan to upgrade the OS
etc etc
Look, it's a nice device for what it does. And if it does everything a person wants, great.
But don't pretend it's something it's not. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - linkTablets are a device market that is currently mostly falling between three stools. They can be considered communications devices, media consumption devices and productivity devices, with some overlap amongst the categories (e-mail is great to consume on a tablet, but not necessarily great to produce/communicate). Now, no one is arguing that the iPad hasn't done the best job of hitting on all three categories. So, no need to jump to its defense.
The Fire isn't trying to land firmly on just one stool, media consumption. They are applying the 80/20 rule, or in this case the 80/33 rule. I think it's safe to say that 80% of what consumers do with their tablets (iPads, inclusive) falls in the media consumption realm. By not trying to compete for the other two stools they can provide a better experience for what people are actually doing with their tablets.
Having reframe the question, lets look at your complaints.
-The lack of Bluetooth and GPS are lamentable but minor. BT is particularly so since it limits users to wired headphones only. GPS on the other hand is forgettable, navigation by tablet was a practice ended before Magellan.
-Tablet cameras are almost entirely awful experiences (iPad, inclusive), and is not missed by anyone that has watched someone attempt to take a picture with one.
-The lack of mic makes sense given this is not intended as a communications device, video out is nice but a laughable use for a tablet (See Tablet cameras, above), printing from a tablet seems anachronistic at best, external keyboard use would be de rigueur on a productivity device, which this is not, an orientation sensor would seem a questionable deletion, but a compass falls along the same lines as the GPS (see Magellan above).
-The PowerVR SGX540 is hardly low-end, especially in the OMAP 4430 as it is clocked above prior variants. It is among the better GPUs appearing in tablets today and a cursory reading of our phone reviews would demonstrate this,.
-The OS issue is one of concern to anyone looking for a tablet that does at least a little of a lot of things. Certainly no one likes buying a tablet only to have a feature show up on a lesser specced phone,
The iPad might be the best selling tablet on the market, it may even be the best tablet on the market, but it is not the market. Our readers know there are countless numbers of tablets out now and coming. They read our site to explore what is available in the whole market, not just one Store. As such they know that there are several tablets priced at $400 and up whose processors, displays, features and industrial design are comparable to the Fire.
We welcome all comments. We just hope everyone will keep an open mind. Closed-mindedness helps no one. Reply
nofumble62 - Thursday, September 29, 2011 - linkI have never pre-ordered anything new, but for $200, I didn't hesitate a second. I am looking forward to get rid of all the paper magazine, and now be able to read in bed. My kids has the Kindle, and I couldn't borrow from them. So I know this is a good deal the moment I saw it. I also a fan of Amazon since I bought at least 10 items a year from them. So this is a really sweat deal.
ol1bit - Friday, September 30, 2011 - linkMine is pre-ordered. Man I Love Amazon. I make fun of Apple Fan's, but I guess Amazon is turning me into an Amazon loyalist!
I've had prime for 2 years, and love it, order everything though them. Now a kick ars tablet for what I want, cheap and fast. I wish it had an external sd slot though.
But $199, and free 2 day shipping. :-) I can live with that. I already have my MP3s on the Amazon cloud.
With this maybe I can just dump my Verizion Droid smart phone. and go back to my Free work phone! Reply
BeowulfX - Friday, September 30, 2011 - linkStill no support for SDHC or microSD?
At 8GB of internal storage...by today's standards, that aint much...and without an option to use microSD or SDHC...HD movies are going to gobble up this 8GB in no time...
Too bad...oh well, may be next time? Reply
Kindleuser - Monday, October 31, 2011 - linkI purchased the Amazon Kindle when it first came out, and I honestly couldn't be happier with it. However, this new kindle may need some of my attention and I may just end up trading in the old for the new! Anyone wanna buy a kindle? :) Reply

subset: commoncrawl


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New Year is a time for goal-setting and strategizing, for thinking about the year ahead. It is the time to close one chapter, and open a new one. What will the beauty industry be remembered for in 2012? Top of mind might be the BB cream craze, the nail care boom, a few significant M&A transactions—including Markwins' recent purchase of Physicians Formula and the back and forth between potential acquisition participants Avon and Coty—and the industry's continued focus on sustainable products and production. But what does 2013—and the future—hold? No one knows for sure, but here is what a few beauty industry leaders expect.
"Although each year in the new economy is full of its share of twists and turns, 2013 may go down in history as a turning-point year in the beauty industry. Challenges are still many as those who survived the economic crisis are navigating their way in this brave new world; however, things are generally looking up. Beauty brands should be taking this opportunity to look at the lessons of the past and apply them to the future of the industry, which will be focused on how beauty and wellness combine progressively; how to provide consumers with the results they are seeking through the use of quick, multifunctional methods and products; meeting the needs of the savvy consumer who wants products with active ingredients and low prices; and always staying on the cusp of consumer demand."
—Cathy Christensen, senior editor, Skin Inc. magazine
"I see several significant trends for 2013. First, DIY. We are continuing to see DIY dermatology treatments at home (the continued growth of Clarisonic is a perfect example). Whether it is glycolic peels, hyaluronic acid treatments, or tools, tools and more tools, sometimes consumers are too busy to make it to the dermatologist and want the intense treatment at home. For example, we are testing an interesting electronic hyaluronic filler patch system. Second, I also expect a return to intensive, active body treatments. While this market fell apart somewhat with the recession as consumers weren't willing to invest in the category, I see this as a significant growth opportunity."
—Marla Malcolm Beck, founder, Bluemercury and M-61 Skincare
"In what has become a hyper visual and technological environment, there will be a trend toward tactility. While consumers will continue to digitize their lives and engage with brands online and on social platforms, there is a heightened desire for sensory experiences that can really only be articulated in a retail environment."
—Kelly Kovack, partner, Brand Growth Management
"I expect to see further developments in medical devices for the shaping of the silhouette. Zeltiq pioneered the development of cryolipolysis, a concept that other manufacturers are now embracing. As always, this competition within the marketplace is leading to new developments and improvements in the devices offered, and thus in the results we can give our customers."
—Dr. Luigi L. Polla, founder, Forever Laser Institut and Alchimie Forever (Switzerland)
"Noninvasive anti-aging solutions are a major trend that will continue into the year 2013. Consumers seem to seek innovative products that provide multifunctional benefits. Therefore the extension of BB creams and CC creams are expected to continue with major brands addressing these consumer demands by developing all-in-one skin care solutions. The development of different at-home sonic and light devices is of growing interest to many. With many people living the fast-paced lifestyle consumers are drawn to more simplicity and how they can enhance their at-home treatments. Leading peptides, retinol and ski- brightening ingredients will remain a constant through the next year for reducing the signs of aging as well. The search for more natural and organic products continues due to increased consumer awareness about sustainability. The focus of skin care products has changed because the spotlight has been placed on what products do not contain rather than the exceptional ingredients they do contain."
—Gogi Sangha, president and CEO, G.S. Cosmeceutical USA, Inc.
"Although difficult to pin down only one trend, it is clear that the focus on nail care will continue into 2013. With the gel business booming, nail products should continue to shine in 2013. Nail color is an easy and inexpensive pick-me-up in a difficult economy, which will help that sector stay strong. We will continue to see new sassy colors and designs from the leading brands."
—Jill Birkett, brand director, HBA Global Expo


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From Mexican to Middle Eastern and everything in between, food trucks have taken the food nation by storm. Since the second season of Eat Street premiered back in October, we've only gotten more stoked on all the new mobile eats that have been popping up.
This past week, the Village Voice hosted their first ever Choice Streets event in New York City. Featuring some of the city's best food trucks — new and old — we couldn't help but bring our empty stomachs over for a bite, or twenty. Check out some of our favorites, as well as easy recipes to make your own version or recreate the flavors at home.


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One of the WHO (World Health Organisation) Baby Friendly Initiatives (which was written to help raise breastfeeding rates) is:
'Practise rooming-in - that is, allow mothers and infants to remain together - 24 hours a day.'
In other words, it is recognised that being close to your baby day and night is important to established a successful breastfeeding relationship.
This is not something I was really aware of in pregnancy. In fact, I feel that my antenatal appointments and classes did not really prepare me for what I needed to know to breastfeed successfully. I am thankful that I had good friends as well as the help of a Lactation Consultant to help me through my bumpy start to breastfeeding.
I certainly would agree with this Baby Friendly Statement about 'rooming-in'. What about your experience? Were you aware of the importance of 'rooming in' during pregnancy and do you feel this helped you to breastfeed successfully?
Best wishes,


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Question: How can I edit Java code inside Flash Builder?
I've seen this question a quite few times on the forums. For users new to Eclipse and/or Flash Builder, it's not immediately obvious. The short story is that since Flash Builder is based on Eclipse, users get the benefit of the Eclipse plug-in ecosystem. The classic Eclipse distribution is widely known for it's Java IDE.
Here's the step-by-step guide to installing the Java Development Tools (JDT) provided by Eclipse:
1) Open Flash Builder
2) Help > Install New Software…
3) At the top of the dialog, click "Add…" to add an update site URL
4) Specify any name and this URL http://download.eclipse.org/releases/galileo/. Press OK.
5) In the table of features, expand "Programming Languages" and select "Eclipse Java Development Tools"
6) Finish the wizard
You'll be prompted to restart Flash Builder when installation is complete. From here, if you want to jump right into Java development, I recommend you switch perspectives (Window > Perspective > Other > Java). This configures the workbench window so that Java-related actions are the primary focus.
Click here for more information about Java development in Eclipse.Share on Facebook


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pets rock collection Archives
Bret Michaels Launches PetSmart Collection
June 26, 2012 by in Business News | Economy
Get your pet entourage ready. PetSmart and multi-platinum rock star Bret Michaels are prepping pets for the limelight with the new Bret Michaels Pets Rock collection. Available exclusively at PetSmart stores in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico and online at www.PetSmart.com, the collection includes toys, beds, apparel, collars, leashes, and bowls – everything… Read More →