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NVIDIA Demonstrates Logan SoC: < 1W Kepler, Shipping in 1H 2014, More Energy Efficient than A6X?by Anand Lal Shimpi on 7/24/2013 9:00 AM EST
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mwildtech - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkMother of God.... Reply
kukarachee - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkTrue enough and agreed. Not really that impressive.
More so considering nvidia's long history of misrepresenting power consumption and performance on upcoming parts. No doubt by the time we see this available and shipping there will be much better SOC options from the likes of Qualcomm etc.
Disappointing. Reply
mmrezaie - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkyou have issues, man! Reply
dragonsqrrl - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkhaters gonna hate Reply
EWP - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWell said. In the mobile space nVidia has consistently fallen far short of their claims. Their CEO jus seems like such a blowhard with his long list of outrageous claims. Reply
kukarachee - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkYes, we are almost certainly going to see another Tegra 4 play out here. Far over-promise and massively under-deliver.
Tegra 4 has been an enormous bomb with sparse design wins to the point they threw most of what they had in a handheld Android gaming device that had to receive a $100 price cut before even hitting the market and it -STILL- is not selling with little interest in Shield, extending the failure of Tegra 4.
Tegra 4 has been crushed in the market by Samsung and Qualcomm and by the time we even see this part actually -available *AND* shipping- it will be already be old news like Tegra 4 was. Never mind that nvidia is getting their butt kicked in design wins for their SOCs by the Qualcomm monolith. Likely due to the failure and issues with Tegra 3 for units such as the Nexus which ditched nvidia for Qualcomm.
Tegra 4 is in nothing but a crappy over-heating tablet and a failed handheld gaming device sold by nvidia themselves. I expect the same for this part if they again can't manage to deliver on their promises -AS WELL- as deliver on time. Two things they have yet to manage... Reply
Yojimbo - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkThroughout its history, Nvidia has generally operated like a locomotive. Whenever they have entered a new sector they make a splash by making promises, and in the first couple generations they come up short of their promises. But with successive generations they've gained ground, and executed more consistently than their competitors, until they are among the leaders of the sector. It happened with desktop 3d graphics and with mainboard chipsets. There is stiff competition in the mobile SOC space, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them there, either. Reply
michael2k - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkYet by your admission there is every reason to dismiss them until they catch up. The problem is that they are competing against three companies that have consistently executed for years now; PowerVR, Qualcomm, ARM, and Apple. They have to consistently outperform Apple and PowerVR if they wish to gain Apple's business, they have to consistently outperform ARM and PowerVR to gain Qualcomm's business, and they have done neither yet. Reply
Yojimbo - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkMy post was a reply to kukarachee's post. He is dismissing the announced generation out-of-hand because of their past relative performance in the sector. The important distinction here is that kukarachee is attempting to make a prediction about a future iteration based solely on Nvidia's previous results in this sector. My argument is that there is NOT every reason to dismiss Nvidia, because they have a track record of succeeding at playing that same game of catch up. I will admit that it's two conflicting track records, and one must decide which one applies in this instance, but I will certainly not admit that there is every reason to dismiss them until they catch up. Whichever track record you find more appropriate to pay attention to is your own choice, however. Reply
michael2k - Saturday, July 27, 2013 - linkThere's no indication they've caught up yet, however. The PowerVR 6 was demonstrated at GDC, earlier this April, and is expected to be out shortly. Logan won't be out until next year, which means by definition it is going to be behind. Reply
Yojimbo - Saturday, July 27, 2013 - linkI have to disagree. I am not sure about your analysis that anything that comes out later is "by definition behind." Rogue is not promising 400 GFLOPS, is it? And it's expected to be out in Q4 2013 isn't it? What we know for sure is that Logan leapfrogs Rogue in terms of API compliance. Suppose Logan devices come out one year later than Rogue devices, and Logan performs upwards of 50% better than Rogue. Would that not be considered being "caught up?" And I never even said that with Logan, Nvidia would be "caught up." I said that Nvidia has a history of catching up. So my claim is that the advantage PowerVR holds over Nvidia immediately after Rogue and Logan, taking into account adjustments made for when the product is first made available to the market, will be less than the advantage that PowerVR has held over Nvidia for the duration of the previous generation, with similar adjustments made. I further claim that there is a good chance that eventually (0, 1, 2 generations?) that gap will be negative. My argument here has nothing to do with Logan being better than Rogue. It is a refutation of kukurachee's dismissal of Nvidia's claims for Logan's performance that he based on the GPUs that Nvidia had on their previous generations SOCs, and the amount of hype/interest they tried to generate for these SOCs. Reply
michael2k - Sunday, July 28, 2013 - linkYes, actually, Rogue is promising 400 GFLOPS, it promises OpenGL ES 3*/2/1.1, OpenGL 3.x/4.x, and full WHQL-compliant DirectX9.3/10, with certain family members extending their capabilities to DirectX11.1 functionality.
For Logan to be upwards of 50% better than Rogue it would have to be a 600 GFLOP chip since PowerVR 6 is expected to hit 400 GFLOP. What would not be caught up is if Logan was a 400 GFLOP chip released next year. You see, Rogue is intended to hit 1 TF, possibly in full powered tablet form factors, so for Logan to truly best Rogue it would need to hit 1.5TF in a tablet form factor.
I don't believe Logan is specced that high. Reply
Yojimbo - Sunday, July 28, 2013 - linkThe information I found on Rogue listed 250 GFLOPs. Where did you find 400 GFLOPs? Reply
michael2k - Monday, July 29, 2013 - linkhttp://www.imgtec.com/powervr/sgx_series6.asp
PowerVR Series6 GPUs can deliver 20x or more of the performance of current generation GPU cores targeting comparable markets. => iPad currently is about 70GF, so a Series 6 implementation would be 1.4 TF
PowerVR Series6 GPU cores are designed to offer computing performance exceeding 100GFLOPS (gigaFLOPS) and reaching the TFLOPS (teraFLOPS) range => 100 GF is the bottom of the expected range
My point holds though that the Series 6 is designed to go over 1TF in performance, which is more than enough to match NVIDIA's Logan for the foreseeable future. Reply
TheJian - Monday, August 05, 2013 - linkYou do realize IMG.L exists in phones because they couldn't cut it vs. AMD/NV in discrete gpus right? They have been relegated to cheapo devices by AMD/NV and are broke compared to NV. Apple apparently doesn't give them much profits. They had to borrow money just to buy 100mil mips cpus (borrowed 20mil), meanwhile NV buys companies like icera for 330mil cash, July29th bought Portland Group (compiler teams just got better at NV), with I'm assuming CASH again as they have 3.75B in the bank:
I'm guessing this hurts OpenCL some also, while boosting NV in HPC even more. PGI owns 10% of compilers, while Intel owns ~25%. So NV just gained a huge leg up here with this deal.
Back to socs, none of the competing socs have had to be GOOD at GAMES until now and not even really yet as we're just getting unreal 3 games coming and announced. How do you think this plays out vs. a team with 20yrs of gaming development work on drivers & with the devs? Every game dev knows AMD/NV hardware inside out for games. That can't be said of any SOC maker. All of those devs have created games on hardware that is about to come to socs next year (no new work needed, they already know kepler). We are leaving the era of minecraft & other crap and entering unreal 3/unreal 4 on socs. Good luck to the competition. If AMD can survive long enough to get their soc out they may be a huge player eventually also, but currently I'd bet on NV doing some major damage with T5/T6 etc (if not T4/T4i). T4 is just to hold people off until the real war starts next year as games are just gearing up on android, and T4i will finally get them into phones in greater numbers (adding more devices in the wild based on a very good gpu set).
That being said, T4 is already roughly equal to all others. Only S800 looks to beat its gpu (I don't count apple, sales dropping and not housing anything but apple hardware anyway). I don't see rogue making any speeches about perf, just features and I don't see them running unreal 4 demos :) I don't hear anything from Mali either. S800 appears to have a good gpu (330) but it remains to be seen if games will fully optimize for it. I see no tegrazone type optimizations so far on Adreno. There is no Adrenozone (whatever, you get the point). All soc makers are about to be seriously upset by gaming becoming #1 on them. Before they needed a good 2D gui etc, not much more to run stupid stuff like minecraft or tetris type junk. We'll see how they all fare in stuff like Hawken etc types. I'd bet on NV/AMD with NV obviously being in the driver seat here, with cash no debt etc helping them and already on T5 by the time AMD ships A1 or whatever they call it.
Soc venders better get their gaming chops up to snuff in a hurry or the NV GPU train will run them over in the next 3yrs. NV gpus will be optimized for again and again on desktop and that tech will creep into socs a year or two later over and over. All games made for PC's will start to creep to android on the very same hardware they were made for already a few years before on desktops. Devs will start to make advanced games on HTML5 (html6 etc eventually), OpenGL, WebGL, OpenCL, Java etc to ease portability making directx less needed. At that point Intel/MS are both in trouble (we're already heading there). IF you aim a game at directx you have a much harder time porting to everywhere else. That same game made on OpenGL ports easily (same with Html5 etc) to all devices.
In a few short years we'll be looking at a 500w normal PC type box with Denver or whatever in it (Cortex A57 I'd guess) with an NV discrete card for graphics. With another 3yrs of games under the android belts it should make for a pretty good home PC with no WINTEL at all in it. Google just needs to get an office package for home out that does most of what office does by that time and there is no need for windows/office right (something aimed more at home users)? They need to court Adobe now to port it to android before Denver or Boulders launches (and anyone else aiming at desktops) or come up with their own content creation suite I guess. A lot of content comes from Adobe's suite. You need this on android with an office package also to convert many home users and work pc's. I see horrible stock prices for Intel/MS in less than 5yrs if google courts Adobe and packages a nice office product for home users. They can give away the OS/Office until MS/Intel bleed to death. All they need is games, adobe, NV/AMD gpus (choose either or both) in a tower with any soc vendor. They will make money on ads not the hardware or software MS/Intel need to make profits on. Margins will tank for these two (witness MS's drop on RT already, and Intel's profits tanking), and android will come to the front as a decent alternative to WINTEL. It's kind of funny Google/(insert soc vendor name here) are about to turn MS into netscape. They gave IE away until netscape bled to death. The same is about to happen to them…ROFL. At the very least Wintel won't be the same in under 5yrs. While Intel now has android, it would be unwise of Google to help Intel push them around (like samsung does to some degree). Much better to make a soc vender be the next Intel but much weaker. Google can push a soc vender around, not a samsung or Intel (not as easily anyway).
I'll remind you that PowerVR has already been killed once by NV (and ATI at the time). That's why they are in phones not PC's :) Don't forget that. I don't see this playing out different this time either. Phones/tablets etc are accidentally moving into NV/AMD territory (gaming) now and with huge volumes making it a no brainer to compete here for these two. It's like the entire market is coming to AMD/NV's doorstep like never before. Like I said, good luck to Qcom/Imagination/Arm/Samsung trying to get good at gaming overnight. There is no Qcom "gaming evolved" or "The way it's meant to be played" games yet. NV/AMD have had 20yrs of doing it, and devs have the same amount of time in experience with their hardware (which with die shrinks will just slide into phones/tablets shortly with less cores, but it's the same tech!). If Qcom/Samsung (or even Apple) don't buy AMD soon they are stupid. It is the best defensive move they can make vs the NV gaming juggernaut coming and if that happens I'll likely sell my NV stock shortly after...LOL. Apple should do this to keep android on NV from becoming the dominate gaming platform. MS could buy them also, but I don't think Intel can get away with it quite yet (though they should be able to, since ARM is about to become their top cpu competitor). When an ARM soc (or whatever) gets into a 500w PC like box Intel can make that move to buy AMD for gpus. Until then I don't think they can without the FTC saying "umm, what?". I'm also not sure Samsung can legally buy AMD (security reasons for a non American company having that tech?).
Anyway, it's not just about perf, it's also about optimizations (such as NV buying PGI for even MORE cuda prowess for dev tools). IE - Cuda just got a boost. More prep work for Denver/Boulder is afoot :) Just one more piece of the puzzle so to speak (the software stack). For google, they don't care who wins the soc race, as long as it pushes Android/Chrome as the Wintel replacement in the future for the dominant gaming platform and eventually as a PC replacement also for at least some work (assuming they court Adobe and maybe a few others for content creation on android/chrome or whatever). I'm guessing Denver/Boulder (and their competition) are pipelined to run at 3.5-4ghz in 70-100w envelopes. It would make no sense to compete with Intel's Haswell/Broadwell etc in 8w. A desktop chip needs to operate at ~70w etc just like AMD/Intel to make the race even. You have a PSU, heatsink/fans and a HUGE box in a PC, it would be stupid not to crank power up to use them all. A Cortex-A57 chip at 4ghz should be very interesting with say, a Volta discrete card in the box :) A free OS/Office suite on it, with say $100 A57 4ghz chip should be easy to sell. A soc chip for notebooks, and a stripped gpu-less version for desktops with discrete cards sounds great. I like the future.
My 2c. Heck call it a buck....whatever...LOL. Reply
ancientarcher - Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - link$10.0 even!!
A very good explanation of your theory. not in the mainstream yet, and Intel (and Anandtech) keep on pushing how great its latest and great chip is that you can get for only $500. This monopoly is going to crash and burn. MS, as you said tried to go the ARM way (the system just wont support monopoly profits for two monopolies, maybe one but not two) but didn't execute well
Denver won't necessarily be ported to the PC form factor, but who knows. It will surely change the landscape in the smartphone/tablet segments. I also think IMG, Mali and Adreno can learn to compete in games. Yes, they would not have had 20 years, but they do have a lot of momentum and the sheer number of devices running these platforms will push developers to code for them. Reply
Mondozai - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWho says they are measuring it against the iPad 4(which is 80 gigaflops btw)?
Their wording is so vague that they can choose a midrange model and say that's it's more representative of the GPU performance of most GPU's(at the time that statement was made), which would be correct.
You're making some pretty wild guesses. Reply
MySchizoBuddy - Saturday, August 10, 2013 - linkmainboard chipsets?
they exited that market. so you only have one example of Nvidia operating like a locomotive. Reply
beck2050 - Monday, August 12, 2013 - linkAgreed. It looks like Logan will finally put Nvidia on the map in the mobile world big time, and after that it should get very interesting. Reply
CharonPDX - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkEven if the power consumption is double what they claim, and the performance half - it's *STILL* massively impressive.
The big question is: Do Intel and PowerVR have similar tricks up their sleeve? Reply
fteoath64 - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - link"Do Intel and PowerVR have similar tricks up their sleeve?". Not Intel but PVR likely with Rouge. The key competitor here is Qualcomm with their Adreno 330 powerhouse. That has time to evolve to better efficiency and tuning. But competition on the mobile side is heating up with this announcement and potentially Nvidia's shilf to quickly make this part available. Bigger tablets and UltraLight notebooks can benefit from it rather than settle with Intel's junk iGP.
The disappointment of the market is no real Tegra4 and Tegra4i products in the market after such delays while Qualcomm churns out model after model of products for OEMs. Reply
ocre - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkhuh? I really dont know what you people are talking about. Tegra 4s closest competition is the snapdragon 800 which is almost nonexistent in the market. Tegra 4 is beating the SD800 in almost every way. Including design wins!!!
"While some will argue that Nvidia's design wins are on the weak side, they have more announced design wins than their competitor, Qualcomm with the Snapdragon 800"
so while you guys might always have negative views towards nvidia, its not nearly as bad as you guys try to make it out to be Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Thursday, December 19, 2013 - link4 months later, and there's dozens of phones and tablets out with Snapdragon S800 SoCs inside; while there are ... how many with Tegra4?
Doesn't matter how many "design wins" you have on paper if none of them ever reach the marketplace. Reply
michael2k - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkYes. PowerVR has had similar performance available to licensees last January. Their first chips are expected to be out this year. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWe won't necessarily see the PowerVR implementations to beat this but the fact is that they exist and likely could beat this.
PowerVR needs reference implementations like all hell.
Qualcomm will beat this.
Doesn't 1-2 GCN cores do well against this, too?
Finally, Intel is already close, and will probably get this performance soon after T5 comes out, with lower power thanks to process advantage. Reply
TheJian - Monday, August 05, 2013 - linkIf we won't see a powervr to "necessarily" beat this why discuss it? They don't exist until...umm...They EXIST. :) If I can't BUY it, it doesn't exist :)
I have a dream in my head of a 50000 gpu core soc that is less than .1w and 10000Tflops gpu power. Do I now have the fastest core on the planet? No, it doesn't EXIST until you can BUY it. Your first sentence really made me laugh. The fact is they don't exist. I'll give you powervr chips that beat this don't exist YET, but that's still just a MAYBE they will...ONE DAY. They'll face bankruptcy if nobody goes for mips tech. They clearly don't make enough from gpus on every apple device to survive the next few gens. TI exited due to not buying icera (or any modem), and Imagination may exit due to mips meaning nothing (could be wrong, we'll see - deving for mips is a tough sell I'd think vs arm/x86). I suspect they'll be bought or die in under 5yrs. They have a market cap of 1B if memory serves and make about 30mil/yr (only 2012, less previously, we'll see for 2013). Good luck keeping up with everyone else making 12x or far MORE than that in the same business. You're dead or bought. Apple could by them for the equivalent of a song (not sure why they haven't) but maybe they're making their own to dump them eventually. They bought PA Semi for the inhouse cpu. Do they have a gpu coming? Otherwise why not purchase IMG.L? They are already in everything you make. Odd, whatever.
The process advantage is disappearing quickly for Intel. Shortly Intel will have to out CHIP the competition, not out fab them. It's a new ballgame from here on out for Intel and the competition's profits blows Intel's away (IE Samsung making almost Intel's yearly profits in a Q). You can't outspend the competition on fabs when they make 3.5x what you do per year and can spend it all on FAB R&D until you go broke. Intel raised 6B in bonds to fund a buyback. It's a sign on weakness IMHO. They will have to cut dividends soon also (last I checked they can't fund them for more than a few years and even less with dropping profits). Again a sign of weakness.
Let me know when powervr (in something other than Apple products) beats a T4, let alone T5. I can't see a product yet :) Anything COULD beat NV. But until something DOES in a PRODUCT who cares? I'll need to see shipping product doing it first. Just like people ranting on lack of T4 wins (well duh, it just came out), I don't see S800 announcements right and left either. Why? It's NOT out either (not shipping in enough volume for massive announcements anyway, not yet). T4 just started shipping in July to ODM's.
I can predict everything will beat a T4 in 5 yrs...LOL. But none of it is shipping NOW. I can buy a toshiba tablet with T4 now (and HP also), though I wouldn't want the toshiba until quality is better. They appear to have design problems with their tablet. But it's shipping now. Qcom will beat this, but WHEN? And how do you know? S800 won't do it vs. T5 (possibly T4 but we don't know in what or if at all yet). Have you seen benchmarks for the next rev past S800? You are special. You work for Qcom or something and have a T5 in your hands? I'll reserve anything regarding AMD for when they actually SHIP a soc.
Also note Intel has hit 14nm snags recently and is already delaying chips. I agree with your PowerVR needs something for reference out now though ;) Where is this stuff? Are they that far away from shipping something? No xmas for them then, nor S800 if it doesn't get out the door in volume soon. We see T4 announcements from Toshiba, HP (both have T4's for sale), Asus, etc so they will be in xmas stuff for sure. How many S800 devices will make it for xmas? Are they shipping to ODM's yet? I know xperia Z is supposedly coming Sept so it has to be shipping but if anyone has some links to verify that...Then again when they ship devices with 3 different chips they can claim shipping but not really ship your desired chip for months. Exynos 5420 is ramping in Aug this month, but I guess we'll have to wait for Note3 to see T628 MP6 perf. They are claiming it's 2x faster than 5410 PowerVR544MP3. But I'll wait for benchmarks of a T628 before I believe this and battery life to go with that benchmark. How long before it is in a product? Note3 is expected Sept, but it has a long list of supposed chips, so not sure which has the S800 or 5420 or when these come specifically (or if I even have the correct chips, I saw a claim of S600 for one model - who knows at this point). I wish companies would just ship ONE soc per product or name them something different like note3.1 for s800, note 3.2 for 5420 etc etc. Something to differentiate better for customers who don't read every review on the planet. Would the REAL note3 please stand up...LOL. Granted its really about the included modem for specific regions but it's still confusing for a lot of people.
Intel is moving to their own soc gpus. I'll believe they beat people when I see it in anything gpu :) NV had samples of 20nm socs ages ago, so Intel will need 14nm to do any damage here and broadwell is slipping to 2015. When we will see a 14nm soc if they are having problems? All socs will be 20nm next year, so Intel's 22nm will be facing these (T5 etc) not far after silvermont/valleyview/baytrail release (tablet by xmas, phone next year?). All have sped up 14nm plans, so they won't be too far behind a DELAYED intel 14nm process especially samsung swimming in billions to dump into their fab tech. T6 is supposed to be 16nm finfet early 2015, so not much of a process advantage for Intel at 14nm then and T6 has maxwell in it. Intel better have a great gpu and this won't be a basic arm port for cpu either it is in house DENVER :)
So 20nm risk production started 2013 Q1, and 16nm risk starts by end of year.
"Chang indicated that TSMC already moved its 20nm process to risk production in the first quarter of 2013. As for 16nm FinFET, the node will be ready for risk production by the year-end, Chang said."
So depending on who T6 comes from it's either 16nm (tsmc, it's at least this) or 14nm (sammy?)? Either way Intel faces stiff competition from here out. The fab party is over. Time to make some unbeatable chips or pay the price. You won't outFAB the competition any more. Intel is about to release 22nm tablets/phones and everyone else is about to do 20nm shortly after that. Not sure how that's a real victory. I don't see one at 14nm either. We may actually see Intel get beaten to 10nm if samsung keeps pounding out 7.9B+ in profits per Q (Q1 was 7.9B, 8.3B i think for Q2). This kind of profit can kill Intel's fab lead quickly. Unless they seriously boost profits samsung has 10nm in the bag and that's assuming Intel wins to 14nm which has yet to be proven and is showing problems or broadwell wouldn't be delayed right? Will apple be fabbing for people shortly? They certainly have the cash to build 3-4 fabs today easily and laugh in 3yrs. I'm surprised it hasn't already happened (though they did buy one, why not start some new ones while you're rich?). Well rumor is they bought UMC, but it's probably true. I'd be doing that and building 3 450mm fabs for the future (what's that 20bil for 3 of them? Even at 25-30bil who cares, apple has ~130). Buy IMG.L and start pumping out gpus in one fab, socs in another and memory in a 3rd for all your devices in 3yrs. Samsung makes as much as they do on a device because 60+% of a phone/tablet comes from IN HOUSE.
As far as I can see this xmas for tablets is owned by S800/T4. Xmas Phones are owned by S600 I think, with maybe enough volume for S800 to make it into some things. T4i is Q1 and will miss xmas, and I don't think 5420 will make it into anything volume wise for xmas as it's just ramping this month.
T5 will be out before July 2014 on 20nm (so will a 20nm S800 etc). Intel won't be seeing 14nm until 2015 in volume if they crack 2014 at all. I don't call that SOON after T5. Unless you want to say VERY soon after Intel puts out a 14nm soc it will face T6 etc. Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Thursday, December 19, 2013 - linkHere it is, Christmas time, and your predictions are a little off. There are many S800 SoCs in phones, many S600 SoCs in phones, nearly all the good tablets have S800 SoCs, and no Tegra4 to be seen.
If you can't even predict the next 4 months (July-Dec), why should we listen to your predictions for the next 3 years? :)
Tegra4 is a flop. Tegra4i is an admission by nVidia that Cortex-A15 can't cut it in phones. And Tegra5 won't be much better (if we even see it in anything by this time next year). Reply
Zoolookuk - Sunday, July 28, 2013 - linkI don't know why people are picking on your comment - faster than A6? I'd hope so, given A6 is form 2012, and this is arriving in 2014. The question is whether it'll be faster than A8, not something from 18 months ago. Reply
karasaj - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWow. Even if we account for a new iPad delivering 2x the performance of the last one (unlikely?) Keller is still ahead, potentially in both power and performance. This is crazy! Reply
michael2k - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkExcept it will be first among equals. PowerVR 6 is designed to scale up to 1TF, and realistically ship in 200GF to 600GF configurations, making the Logan nothing special. Reply
Krysto - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkAnd you think Kepler isn't? Kepler is scalable as far as Nvidia's highest end chips. Plus that argument is a pretty weak one, since what matters is how much can you scale under a certain power envelope - not how much in TOTAL. That's completely irrelevant. It just means Series 6 will - eventually (years from now) get to 1 TF. But so will other chips.
Also Kepler IS something special. Here's why - full OpenGL 4.4 support. Imagination, Qualcomm and ARM have barely gotten around to implement OpenGL ES 3.0, and even that took them until now basically, to implement the proper drivers for them, and obtain the certification.
The point is, that the same performance level, Kepler optimized games should look a lot better than games on any other chip. Reply
Krysto - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkOh, and even Intel barely got around to implement OpenGL 4.0 in Haswell - the PC chip. So don't expect the others to support the full and latest OpenGL 4.4 anytime soon. Reply
1Angelreloaded - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkIncase you don't know this already, sandy/ivy/haswell integrated graphics are absolutely terrible, in most case when used aside your dedicated GPU it lowers performance instead of increasing it. On its own it might be fine for a few things here and there, but even that is terrible. Reply
ExarKun333 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkYour GPU knowledge is laughable. Integrated GPUs are disabled when running a dedicated. You obviously are a troll or are plain ignroant about all CPU/GPU issues. others please ignore this user's posts... Reply
Flunk - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkActually, you're wrong. In Nvidia Optimus/AMD Enduro the discrete GPU draws in the integrated graphic's frame buffer even when in discrete mode. Also, on desktops it is possible to enable your integrated graphics and discrete GPU at the same time to support more monitors. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkDifference is only present on Enduro. Optimus is almost identical. The performance hit with multiple monitors on multiple devices is likely a Windows thing and a framebuffer sync thing. Not an actual problem with Intel graphics.
So I know we know Exar is wrong, but his point that Ang's information is irrelevant is in fact correct, for this mobile situation anyway. Reply
happycamperjack - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkIf you take a look at Microsoft's Surface Pro's benchmark number, you'd be shocked by how many times faster its GPU is compared to latest iPad and Androids phones. Because I was! Reply
texasti89 - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - link"many times faster" is not the right metric .. they all about the same when you look at the perf/watt. Reply
happycamperjack - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkI'm just dismissing the guy who's saying that integrated graphics from intel is absolutely terrible. It's certainly not terrible compared to the GPU in top mobile SoC. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkGood sir, android (90% of what this will be running I would assume) JUST NOW with 4.3 which is yet to appear on a device (Nexus 7 R2 is first) just now implemented OpenGL ES 3.0 support.
Look, being the first to support new API's is great, but being the only one gains you nothing because nobody is going to program for the 1% that's just bad business. Reply
ltcommanderdata - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkEven with Keplar's advanced features support, we'll have to see how much effort developers put into optimizing games for Keplar. Most mobile games are developed first for iOS and then ported over to other platforms.
EA just announced that the iOS App Store is EA's biggest retail distribution channel, bigger than other mobile app stores, their own Origin and other PC and console channels. So games being designed for and optimized for iOS/PowerVR GPUs are a given, because that's where the market is. nVidia will have to actively convince mobile developers to support their additional features.
What's more, I don't believe any mobile OS officially supports any version of desktop OpenGL much less OpenGL 4.4. Android 4.3 just announced incorporation of OpenGL ES 3.0. Rather than OpenGL 4.4, the most common implementations will likely have Keplar additional features exposed as a bunch of OpenGL ES 3.0 extensions, which may also limit adoption. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkIt isn't like EA is popular with hardcore gamers, so no one truly uses Origin. Their console games mostly suck, their PC games mostly suck.
Who is surprised? Reply
Scannall - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkI'd just point out that hard core gamers are really a niche market. World wide sales of the Xbox 360 and the PS4 over 8 years is about 70 million each. Not exactly huge. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkThank you... Someone who understands!
To you good sir... I agree. :) Reply
Kill16by9TN - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkJohnny's name is KeplEer, not KeplAr! Reply
prophet001 - Monday, July 29, 2013 - linkKepleer hunh. Reply
eanazag - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI am in agreement. Features are just as much a part of the conversation as power and performance. The software side should also be good as Nvidia has done a good job with this. Software/drivers being my biggest gripe for Intel.
This is definitely drumming up business for their IP licensing. Squarely aimed at Apple. Intel should take note also because Atom's graphics have always sucked.
So this is big and good news for customers. Thinking smartphone only is too small.
My question is does this do well power-wise for video. We will have to wait and see. I'm glad to see Nvidia hanging around when the idea of a GPU only company hanging around this long was pretty pessimistic. They have been good at redefining themselves, which is very tough for companies. (cough, cough Kodak and HP with Palm) Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkTheir support may be great, but nobody is going to program for Keplar features if they don't hold a solid market share, and I mean VERY solid, mirroring Apple iPhones. I use them as an example because while Androids hold most of the market, they are a mixed back of fragmentation.
Also, the new Atoms coming out have almost nothing in common with the old Atoms. People keep making references to the old ones, which I agree were worthless even for a netbook, but the new ones I actually have some high hopes for. Reply
michael2k - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkCorrect, I don't think Kepler is all that special. Nvidia has lost a lot of credibility in the mobile space by being unable to take the crown for three years straight. In any case, if you're going to be quoting Kepler PR, this is PowerVR's list of accomplishments for the 6 series GPU:
Delivering the best performance in both GFLOPS/mm2 and GFLOPS/mW, PowerVR Series6 GPUs can deliver 20x or more of the performance of current generation GPU cores targeting comparable markets. This is enabled by an architecture that is around 5x more efficient than previous generations. => At the same power level expect 5x the perf, approximately 350GF
All members of the Series6 family support all features of the latest graphics APIs including OpenGL ES 'Halti'*, OpenGL 3.x/4.x, OpenCL 1.x and DirectX10 with certain family members extending their capabilities to full WHQL-compliant DirectX11.1 functionality. => Just like Logan
PowerVR Series6 GPU cores are available for licensing now. => Posted last January! Expect then to see this in SoC this year, not years from now. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWhaddya mean? Kepler doesn't scale to those either. It only clockspeed scales and is probably close to headroom, while adding another core will make the die WAY too big.
No, you're wrong. Also, ES 3.0 is pretty damn close to 4.2 compliance. So don't act like it's a huge jump.
Finally, don't forget AMD's GCN is competing in this space and has proven itself very relevant. Reply
ollienightly - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkAnd what do we need OpenGL 4.4 for? More wasted silicon or power? You do realize NO ONE would ever develop OpenGL 4.4 games for the Tegra 5 EVER. Reply
djgandy - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkNvidia haven't even implemented OpenGL ES 3.0 on anything that ships or is near to shipping! And now they are going completely to the other end of the spectrum and doing a fully DX11 compliant chip!? Oh and the reason there is no OpenGL 4.4 on other mobile GPU's is because there is no point in doing it. Why burn area for an API you cannot use.
Keep smoking that Nvidia marketing bs Reply
ltcommanderdata - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThe expectation is that this year is Apple's "S" refresh which last time with the iPad 2/iPhone 4S brought 9x (iPad 2)/7x (iPhone 4S) claims of GPU performance increases over the previous generation by Apple which I believed translated into ~5x real world performance improvements. As such a 5x theoretical GPU performance increase by nVidia in 2014 is not out of line with what Apple could be delivering later in 2013. As michael2k points out, PowerVR 6 Rogue is certainly scalable to those performance levels. We'll have to see them implemented in actual devices to see how well they compare within realistic power constraints to really compare their effectiveness of course. Reply
mmrezaie - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI also think the end result will be like what we have with AMD. AMD offers very good hardware, but nvidia pushes more on api/driver lvl. So if PowerVR and Kepler become comparable I wonder what kind of competition we will see in Driver/API/Game Engine front. Reply
ltcommanderdata - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkhttp://gfxbench.com/compare.jsp?D1=Apple+iPhone+5&...
Apple actually writes their own drivers for their PowerVR GPUs which seem to be very efficient considering the iPhone 5's SGX543MP3 actually achieves double the triangle throughput of the Galaxy S4's SGX544MP3 despite the Galaxy S4 having higher clock speed and memory bandwidth. So there is the comparison between PowerVR reference drivers which is probably what most device manufacturers are using vs Keplar and Apple PowerVR drivers vs Keplar. It's a safe bet Apple will continue to make gaming a focus on iOS given that's a major part of the App Store, so they'll continue putting effort into GPU driver performance optimization. nVidia of course has a long track record with driver optimization so we'll definitely see lots of competition in this area.
In terms of features, Apple continues expose new features in PowerVR GPUs through OpenGL ES extensions. They've already implemented or are going to implement in iOS 7 a number OpenGL ES 3.0 features on existing Series 5/5XT GPUs including sync objects, instanced rendering, and additional texture formats, etc. The major untapped feature is multiple render target support which should be coming since the EXT extension has now been finalized. Series6/Rogue is DX10 compliant, so I expect we'll be seeing those additional features like geometry shaders exposed through OpenGL ES 3.0 extensions. So it'll be a comparison between OpenGL 3.3 vs OpenGL 4.4 exposed through OpenGL ES 3.0 extensions.
One advantage Apple does have is that they can regularly release performance optimizations and new features in regular iOS updates which see rapid adoption throughout the userbase so developers can count on the features and use them. nVidia likely has more trouble pushing out new drivers broadly on Android. As such, it's good that nVidia is aiming high to begin with in terms of performance and features since they have less opportunity to gradually increase them over time through driver updates. Reply
name99 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkYou also have to remember that most of Apple's customers (like most customers of all phones and tablets) don't give a damn about the most demanding games. Apple is happy to help out game developers, happy even to boast about them occasionally, but games are not central to what Apple cares about in a GPU.
What Apple DOES care about is enhancing the entire UI. This means that (especially as they get more control over their entire SOC) they're going to be doing more and more things that will be invisible if you just look at specs and traditional benchmarks. For example, it means that they will pick and choose whatever features are valuable in Open GL4.4 and integrate those into their devices (maybe, maybe not, exposing API).
In this context, for example, the shared buffers of Open GL4.4 would be extremely valuable to Layer Manager, and they have enough control over the CPU (and I assume could negotiate enough control over the GPU) to implement what's necessary to get this working on their systems. It could be there, invisible to external programmers, but making Layer Manager operations (ie the entire damn UI) run 20% faster and with 20% less energy.
A second example. Apple, on both OSX and iOS, have constantly tried to push image processing ever closer to what is "theoretically" correct rather than computationally easy. So they would like all image processing to be done in something like Lab space, and only converted to gamma corrected RGB at the very stage of display. They do this on OSX, on iOS with less CPU power they do as much as they can in SRGB space. But if you had HW that ran the transformations from RGB (with various profiles) or YUV (again with various profiles) to Lab and back, you could expand this for usage everywhere. It's the kind of small thing (like kerning or ligatures) that many people won't notice, but it will make all images (and especially manipulated/processed images) on iOS look just that much better --- but to really pull it off requires dedicated HW.
Point is: I am sure Apple will continue to throw more transistors at the GPU part of their SOC. But they won't necessarily be throwing those transistors at the same things nVidia is throwing them at. They may even seem to lag nVidia in benchmarks, but it would be foolish to map that onto assuming the devices feel slower than nVidia devices. Reply
happycamperjack - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI think your opinion about Apple's position on gaming is 4 years old. 75% of App store revenue come from games. iPhone 3GS, iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, iPads all featuring GPU, not necessarily CPU, that were well ahead of competitions when it came out. So Apple doesn't just CARE about games, they effing love games/money! It didn't start out this way of course, but they learn that's what their customers wanted through app downloads and sale, so that's what they are focusing now. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkApple's mentality there is accurate for Macs but not iOS devices. Reply
happycamperjack - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWell I can't blame them. Most computer games are written and optimized in DirectX. With the mac market still a small fraction of of PC, it's hard to see developers change their DirectX stance. Thus it's hard to see Apple change their stance on computer games as well. It's more likely for them to make a console based on iOS then push for Mac games. Reply
TheJian - Monday, August 05, 2013 - linkThe app store doesn't make a ton of money, neither does google's currently. Revenue and profit are two different things also. They are both really just designed to push the platforms and devices. Maybe they will be huge money makers in the end as games get more evolved and rise in price, but I doubt Apple makes 1B on the store vs something like 39B from the hardware. In 2011 Piper Jaffray said they made ~$239 mil but apple divulges nothing so no real proof of what they pay in costs to run the store or what they make after that. Apple has only claimed to run at break even (oppenheimer 2010). If numbers are correct, they make ~$3bil in revenue on downloads but how much is left for profits after server costs, maintaining them, bandwidth etc.
Apple cares about games when they start OPTIMIZING for their products. Currently they are inspiring nobody to do this. I see nobody but Nvidia doing anything to make things better looking on their hardware. The fact that apple's store has 75% of revenue from games just says game devs own most of the revenue from the store, and that consoles will suffer because many game elsewhere (which shows in wiiu/vita sales). It says nothing about APPLE themselves promoting games development.
Links to Apple proof of game investing please. So far all I see is "you should be thankful we let you put your game on IOS" rather than "Here' please make it BETTER on IOS & A6 and we'll help you". With NV they send help to the game dev to optimize for their hardware (literally send people to help out). Check out Ouya comments etc. If apple is doing this I'm not aware of it and have seen no articles from any dev saying "apple was great to work with, gave tons of help to optimize for A6" etc...AMD/NV have courted game devs forever (ok, 20yrs). I have seen nothing from Apple and devs didn't even jump on macs conversions until they hit 10% share (which is dropping now, so I expect it to drop again for devs). Apple appears to be learning nothing. If they had made games a HUGE part of their priority 3yrs ago android would have never taken off. They played the enterprise card properly but so far they have wasted the game card. Enterprise brought down Rimm (everyone gaining exchange), but only google seems to be helping to court devs (and NV helping). Shield wasn't on display in main view for all at Google IO for nothing. Google seems to understand gaming is needed to kill windows, take over some PC sales and kill directx. All of these are done with games on android. Couple that strategy with a free OS and Free office package at some point for home users (in a decent package) and WINTEL isn't needed. Qcom/NV/Samsung will provide the soc power and they google provides the platform to run on them. All of us win in games if we get off directx. Devs make more money because of easy porting thus having more money for risk on better games since they have so many to target. Any decent game should make money just due to the sheer # of devices to sell to at that point. Reply
djboxbaba - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThis is ALL relative, does anyone realize that this will not be released till 2014? ......2014? the A8/A8X (or equivalent) will be released by then, as well as Qualcomm's latest snapdragon processors. Don't place your expectations too high. Reply
Scannall - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI am wondering if they will be too late to market again. PowerVR ssries 6 (Rogue) devices should be shipping any time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVR#Series_6_.28R... Reply
NLPsajeeth - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkSeems like the most similar desktop part is the GeForce GT 630 OEM
And laptop somewhere between 720M and 730M. Reply
randomhkkid - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThink about the implications if they can get just shy of 720m - 730m performance at about 5W what can they do with laptop GPU at around 35W O.o Reply
Spunjji - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWe already have Kepler at that power level, though. So nothing that they haven't done already... Reply
randomhkkid - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI mean that performance currently hasn't scaled with the power, i'm assuming that the current 720m has a power envelope of around 35W and yet there is a ~5W kepler GPU that has around the same performance. If they could scale it up while keeping the efficiency it would be a sight to behold. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI think you're way high on the 720M TDP. It's a GF117 part. The other GF117 parts are 12.5W (710M) or 15W (620M and 625M).
35W is probably a bit too high for the 730M too, it's a GK208 part and the Quadro 510M/610M (only mobile GK208's I can find TDP for) run at 30W,. Reply
Jaybus - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkFor the same architecture, it is true that performance scales linearly with clock speed. However it is not true that power consumption scales linearly with clock speed. 5 W at 500 MHz does not equate to 25 W at 2.5 GHz. Reply
roberto.tomas - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThis mostly looks very rosy for Nvidia's future IP in mobile space. If Logan comes at 28nm though, it *does* face the same issue as Tegra 3 had — unless it comes to market not in 2014 but in 2013.
As a rough estimate, at 28nm and from the power shown, to achieve max performance they need 25w on the gpu power meter. That's a bit of a shame, because that is clearly outside the bounds of minimal cooling.
On the plus side, that is a tonnage of power, which companies can tune to use as much or little of as they want, all the way up into the absurd levels — rather like the PowerVR Rogue. In that sense it looks good for NVidia. Reply
sontin - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWhat? If they can get 76GFLOPs/s in less than 1W they do not need 25W for 5x the performance...
And the remark about 28m: Every company will supply constraint with 20nm in 2014. And Tegra 3 was a huge success for nVidia (50% revenue increase in FY2013) that they can sell it for a lower price (cheaper wafer) and in huge numbers (more wafers, better yields).
And do not forget: 20nm will only bring a 30% lower power consumption. So if you can archive this with an optimize architectures there is no benefit for using the 20nm from the start for Tegra. Reply
kukarachee - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkYes indeed. This looks to be another SOC that will tank just like Tegra 4 has totally crashed and burned (literally ;) ) with little success in the market. Tegra 4 was a flop, with power consumption and heat output so poor it needs a fan to keep it cool in some cases.
Nvidia should stop burning money with the continued Tegra failures.
This also ignores the 1000lb gorilla that is Intel wading into the SOC space, who no one, not even the big players like Qualcomm or Samsung, much less a small-fry like nvidia, will have much success competing against once they get rolling with their SOCs built using their exclusive and superior foundry technology. Reply
Eric S - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkNot that Tegra and Apple processors really compete, but Apple is rumored to be teaming up with Intel for access to their fabs. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkApple would be considered a competitor and probably won't be accepted, I believe, unless Intel is giving access to old fabs. Read the official information before you post.
Intel will probably never make ARM SoCs since they left the business. Reply
Krysto - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkNext year 3 Ghz 20nm ARM chips are rumored to arrive. Intel can't compete with that with Atom. Plus Atom's GPU is still no match for the average ARM GPU, let alone for Kepler. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkI think they still have another tick and tock before Intel starts rampaging about in SOC land. But you do bring forward a valid point good sir. Reply
Krysto - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI definitely agree Logan needs to be 20nm next year, and I'm not sure Nvidia will do that. I do know they intend to have Tegra 6 after it, at 16nm FinFET. Reply
rocketscience315 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThe feature list is disingenuous as CUDA is nV specific (lots of others have OpenCL) and DX11 has no relevance except perhaps MS Surface. Reply
Spunjji - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkDisingenuous? A marketing slide? Nevar ;D
Quite true, of course. Unless they're planning to foist CUDA upon the mobile world it's not much of a draw; especially not in what will be a rather weak implementation of their compute architecture. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWhat about WP8.x? I'd assume it's using DX instead of OGL for 3d. Reply
rocketscience315 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkYou're probably right about DX running on WP8 but I presume they can run OGL also, and developers would use OGL as it would make some code cross-platform. I'd bet that DX is a rather tiny market relative to OGL on mobile. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkI can't possibly see WP8.x running DX, unless you are referring to the surface pro.
I mean the option is there, but lone API's don't get developer attention, unless my limited knowledge is misleading me, that would make porting things to WP from iOS/Android more work than it could possibly be worth.
Much the same as the Cell processor in PS3, never got used fully because it was a bear to code for. Reply
Stuka87 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkArg, anytime I read "Performance Data" from nVidia about an unreleased product my head hurts. Reply
Voldenuit - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkIt's... the best at what it does?
SNIKT! Reply
jjj - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - link"we haven't even seen Tegra 4 devices on the market yet"
The Toshiba tablets have been in stores for a while now. Reply
Devfarce - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThey compare it to iPad but this could very well be in the next iPad down the road. Not as Logan but as licensed IP. Apple could have licensed this a year ago and the world wouldnt have been any wiser with NDAs desipite the recent announcement. They build their own chips and license PowerVR IP. There isn't much stopping them from soliciting other vendors other than inertia behind an established partner/codebase and existing contracts. Reply
Stuka87 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkExcept the next PowerVR which will be shipping any time now will already match Logan (From the looks of things at least). Reply
Scannall - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkPlus they own a good sized chunk of PowerVR. Reply
Eric S - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkIt would make sense. Apple is more invested (and ahead of the game) in their CPU tech. They may license a graphics chip if it is good enough. For that matter they may be able to license Intel graphics tech. People criticize it, but it may actually perform well for the tablet space where there is no dedicated memory. Reply
michael2k - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkNo, it doesn't make sense. They currently license PowerVR, which is ahead of NVIDIA. The PowerVR 6, which is the same performance level as Logan/Kepler, was available for license last January, and should be shipping in product this year. Reply
Krysto - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkAnd you thought Atom stands a chance against ARM chips Anand? Even Bay Trail (tablet-only chip) has like HALF the GPU performance of Tegra 4...And Merrifield will be completely embarrassed by 20nm ARM chips in 2014 (which presumably includes Tegra 5, too). Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkGive it a tick and a tock and you will be surprised.
Haswell is Intel's actual attempt at creating a mobile product that meets the expectations of having the Intel moniker with it.
It is doing much better than Ivy did, and the graphics options are better, but the whole thing is still relatively young and juvenile. The next round I think we will see some very impressive results, like I keep telling people, the Atom of tomorrow isn't going to be the Atom of yestedays netbooks. Reply
rwei - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkSerious question, why do mobile GPUs matter? I'm something of a declining gamer who probably last played a serious game around when ME3 came out, and I guess SC2:HotS briefly - and nothing on mobile platforms has excited me. On the other hand, I've accumulated a fat stack of games to play on consoles - the above, and Heavy Rain, Uncharted 3, The Last of Us - but I wouldn't actually play those on, say, a tablet (Heavy Rain maybe?), and even less so a phone.
Infinity Blade was impressive for its time, but I would hardly buy a device to play it, and even in my reduced-passion state I still care more about games than most people. Reply
randomhkkid - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI think it will become more of a need as phones become the one device that does everything ie. when docked it becomes your desktop and then undocked its a smartphone. Check out the Ubuntu edge to see what I mean. Reply
rwei - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkAs things stand, I wouldn't even do that with an Ultrabook-class laptop, never mind a typical (non-Win8 convertible) tablet - and phones are still on a whole other plane entirely...!
Particularly if high-DPI catches on (and I hope it does), my understanding is chips of this size won't have anywhere near the bandwidth to support that use case. Reply
blacks329 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI had never thought of that but Heavy Rain on a tablet would actually be kind of awesome! Too bad that studio is Sony owned (ie only PS games) and the director is a pretentious douche. Nonetheless, they make interesting 'games' and I look forward to playing Beyond Two Souls. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkThere is always that slim chance it will pop up in the PlayStation store on some "Approved" HTC devices. I know my HTC One X+ got access to it because the Tegra 3 in it, but the selection is a joke if you ask me. Reply
name99 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkYou're right --- the population that care about games is tiny, meaningless to Apple, Samsung, Nokia et al.
The GPU is relevant on iOS, however, because the entire UI is built around "layers" which are essentially the backing store for every view (think controls like buttons, status bars, text windows, etc). These layers are composited together by the GPU to generate the final image you see. For this to give fluid scrolling, that compositing engine needs to be fast (and remember it is driving retina displays, so lots of pixels). Even today (and a lot more so in iOS) each of these views can be subject to frame by frame transformations (scaling, translation, becoming darker, lighter or more or less transparent) to provide the animations that one takes for granted in iOS, and once again we want those to run glitch free.
All this stuff basically pushes the backend (texture) part of the GPU, not geometry and lighting. However something which DOES push geometry (I don't know about lighting) is Apple's flyover view in Maps. [Yeah, yeah, if you feel the need to make some adolescent comment about Apple Maps, please, for the love of god, go act like a child somewhere else.] The flyovers in Maps as of today (for the cities that have them) are, truth be told, PRETTY FREAKING INCREDIBLE. They combine the best features of Google Earth and StreetView, in a UI which is easier to use than either of those predecessors, and which runs a lot smoother than those predecessors. But I am guessing that the Maps 3D views pushes the GPU HW to its limits. They are smooth, yes, but they seem to do a careful job of limiting quality to keep smoothness going. There is no anti-aliasing in play, for example, and the tessellation of irregular objects (most obviously trees) is clearly too coarse. All of which means that if a GPU 2x as fast were available, Apple could make the 3D view in Maps look just that much better.
Finally I suspect (without proof) that Apple also does a large amount of its rendering (ie the stroking and filling of paths, the construction of glyphs, and so on) on the GPU. They've wanted to do it that way for years on OSX, but were always hindered by bwd compatibility concerns. With the chance to start over on iOS, I'd expect they made sure this was a feasible path. Reply
tviceman - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkIt's nice to see Nvidia make comparisons to their own products. In this case, outperforming an 8800GTX puts things into good perspective when looking at anand's mobile GPU benchmarks.
If Nvidia can deliver Logan "on time" then it truly will be a very, very great SoC. The biggest issue they'll still have to deal with is A15's power hungry design. Wayne's (Tegra 6) custom cores will hopefully be more power conscious like the Krait cores are. Reply
xype - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkOh, wow, I am sure this time around their outlandish performance claims will actually come true and Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, et al will be totally outclassed.
Especially since we all know companies like Apple—whose A6X the "sometime next year" is compared again, just decided to stop developing their mobile CPUs and will ship the next 4 iterations of each product with a A6X variant. Reply
cdripper2 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkForgotten about Lucid Virtu have we? It would seem we SHOULD ignore your further posts ;) Reply
cdripper2 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkthat was @ ExarKun333. post didn't work quite right there.... Reply
Concillian - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThis is great news. Feature parity with PCs is enormous. Should be great for nVidia, and likely very bad news for PowerVR. Reply
Stuka87 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkGlad to see them ditch Tegra, which was outdated the day it was released. performance numbers should go way up with the Qualcomm chip. Reply
Stuka87 - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkarg, wrong window, ignore my last comment :/ Reply
michael2k - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkExcept PowerVR Series 6 is essentially at parity, and was available for licensing last January and should be shipping this year. Logan isn't supposed to be out until next year. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThe only time you can trust anything nVidia says about Tegra and product delivery is when it's been shipping for weeks and owned by consumers. Otherwise, they'll lie to your face right up until the very day they are supposed to be shipping product to consumers and then shrug and say, "Oh, sorry. Yah, not happening. Don't know when exactly it'll ship, but hey, it was totally unexpected. We totally didn't know we were going to miss the date until... just now."
This is why they lost so many contracts to Qualcomm, including the Nexus one. They're just way too unreliable.
Having such great API support and having it be highly compatible with PC gaming and console gaming will only be great when it happens to a company that actually delivers product on time and within promised spec.
And that company will almost certainly be Qualcomm. Reply
Krysto - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkNot denying what you said, but today I realized they probably dropped Tegra because Qualcomm supports OpenGL ES 3.0, and it was one of the main features of Android 4.3. Tegra 4 doesn't support it. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThat has to be why, in my opinion. Reply
HighTech4US - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkHaters gotta Hate. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkNot like Qualcomm dropped the ball on Windows drivers or anything...
Of course it turned out that market was worthless but you should pay a little more attention! Reply
jasonelmore - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkKeplar has the best performance per watt in the world. No matter which platform your talking about.
This only makes sense, now keplar is fully scale-able. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkThing is, its coming to market too late if you ask me, and to be perfectly honest I wouldn't expect it to do much more than perform equally with its competition.
THe only thing I can see saving this and making it a huge success would be if the 20nm yields are crap and they can't make enough for demand. Reply
Arnulf - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThe name is Kepler, as in Johannes Kepler:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Kepler Reply
takeship - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkSee also for reference: Tegra 2 performance claims, Tegra 3 power claims. Reply
godrilla - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkThis thing can run crysis 1 six years later 100x more efficient than my 6 year old 8800 ultra, now that is impressive. Reply
chizow - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI guess Logan is the reason why Nvidia was so confident in it's IP licensing overtures. Hopefully we'll see it licensed out to some of the bigger players out there. It'd be a shame to see Kepler mobile tech wasted away if it's necessarily tethered to Tegra. Reply
happycamperjack - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkI believe that this is nvidia's marketing push to Apple. Everything nVidia's doing lately (such as opening up mobile GPU licensing) is pointing to nVidia wanting to bed with Apple products. If they are successful, we can expect Apple products to feature nVidia GPU in their late 2014 or 2015 lineups. Their PowerVR chips are lagging behind competitions in terms of cutting edge features like latest OpenGL implementations. Apple is no doubt looking into updating their GPU lines. Nvidia's GPU makes a lot of sense for Apple (experiences with TSMC SoC, lack of Android phones using nVidia's GPU this year). Reply
Krysto - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkI'm sure Apple would evaluate it. But I think they'll just wait for Maxwell, a year after that.
I was already thinking Apple might quit Imagination in the next few years, because Imagination will be making their own MIPS chips, and try to get more into the Android world, and I don't think Apple will like that very much.
Plus, there's the technical reasons. I don't think Imagination will match Kepler/Maxwell anytime soon, probably not even in performance, let alone in features. It's really REALLY hard to support all the latest and advanced OpenGL features - see Intel, who's had tons of trouble making proper drivers over the years, and they're still barely at OpenGL 4.0 with Haswell. Reply
happycamperjack - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkI guess it will all depends on how good PowerVR series 6 GPU will be. And who knows, might even use intel SoC in 2015 as the new 4.5w Haswell has been very impressive! If it has the performance near the i5 in Surface Pro, it's a no brainer for Apple to seriously consider Haswell or its successors. One thing for sure, it's gonna be harder than ever for Apple to figure out which road to take in the next 2 years. Reply
watersb - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkApple currently has the resources to take all the "roads", then pick the one that works best for them. All before releasing a product.
Their culture of secrecy is mostly because they do not want clumsy ideas presented to the end-user. Reply
michael2k - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkYou missed the part where PowerVR 6 is competitive with Logan, but was available for licensing last January. Apple might very well investigate this GPU for their 2014 SoC, but then said SoC would be half as powerful as a PowerVR 6. Reply
happycamperjack - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkI watched some of their demos, seems like PowerVR 6 is designed for mostly for Open GL ES 3.0. I hightly doubt that it can compete with Logan for advance OpenGL 4.x features like tessellation. In fact I'm willing to bet that Logan will have tessellation performance that's more than 3 times faster than PowerVR 6. Reply
michael2k - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkUntil HW is available we can't know, but the problem isn't that it can't compete, it's that Logan will come out a year later. So even if Logan is 3 times faster, it will be a year later, and a revised PowerVR 6+ will be out, instead. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, July 24, 2013 - linkWe still haven't heard if this has an integrated-enough baseband for all of the lovely USA carriers. I assume it does based on T4i but I don't trust Nvidia on that point. Reply
Krysto - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkNvidia uses a (quite revolutionary) soft-modem. All bands can be implemented in the software of the modem.
The problem is they've been slow to bring it to market so far (same for Samsung and all the others besides Qualcomm, really). But I doubt this will still be an issue next year. Reply
andyroo77 - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkHow does this compare to the newest high end PowerVR graphics?
As Nvidia will be licensing this design, have they just dealt a death blow to Imagination technologies' PowerVR/ARM's Mali/Qualcom's Adreno lines? It looks pretty good to me but does it blow the latest and greatest from these other companies out the water or is it all marketing hype? Can anyone with the knowledge fill me in? Reply
Krysto - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkKepler might be unmatched, but there's still one way for Nvidia to fail - and that's going with 28nm. They'd be very very stupid to do that, yet they probably will anyway. It's like they haven't learned their lesson with Tegra 3 vs S4 last year.
But Tegra 6 with Nvidia's own Denver CPU core and Maxwell GPU - that will also arrive at 16nm FinFET just a year after Logan, should really be KILLER. But there's quite a bit of time until then. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkIt is waaaaay too late in the story for them to change from 28nm.
If they do that then they might as well skip this Tegra and go to the next. Reply
michael2k - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkPower VR 6 is the same performance and power envelope as this, but was available to partners last January and should be shipping soon. Reply
djgandy - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkSame old crap from Nvidia. Nice comparison matrix too. Everyone will support ES 3.0 by the time this comes out. It is Nvidia who left it out of their most recent chip saying it was pointless.
As usual they are saying a chip that is not due, for a good year at least, is better than a chip that is based on a 4 year old graphics architecture. Reply
yhselp - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkAt some point in the near future, if Intel doesn't decide to do it themselves, would it be possible for an OEM to licence NVIDIA IP and integrate it into an Intel ultra mobile design? Reply
JlHADJOE - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkNow that would be interesting.
Maybe Nokia would do it for an upcoming W8 phone? Silvermont Atom + Logan. Bringing Windows, Intel and Nvidia from your desktop to your phone. Reply
yhselp - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkSound good, but there might be a few problems. Microsoft wants homogeneity between Windows phones and so they set requirements for the SoC (among other things). Back in the days of WP7 these rules were quite strict which meant an OEM didn't have complete freedom in choosing the SoC. Nowadays, as far as I understand, there's only a set of minimum system requirements that an OEM has to meet. An Intel/NVIDIA SoC would obviously be more than powerful enough, but I wonder whether Microsoft would have anything to say about such an implementation. Furthermore, there's the question of the benefits of all this; while the NT kernel is there, the mobile OS would need some work to make proper use of all that power. Not to mention, having the same architecture and API doesn't immediately translate to running the exact same software from Windows 'PC' on Windows 'mobile'.
A Silvermont/Logan implementation, while great, is not that exciting. Next-gen Silvermont (hopefully wider) + Maxwell on smaller fab would be quite interesting. Reply
HighTech4US - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkAnand: NVIDIA got Logan silicon back from the fabs around 3 weeks ago, making it almost certain that we're dealing with some form of 28nm silicon here and not early 20nm samples.
I believe this is a wrong assumption and that the Logan sample is on 20nm.
As of April 14, 2013 TSMC has had 20mn risk production available. More than enough time for Logan to be produced on 20nm.
Quote: While TSMC has four "flavors" of its 28nm process, there is one 20nm process, 20SoC. "20nm planar HKMG [high-k metal gate] technology has already passed risk production with a very high yield and we are preparing for a very steep ramp in two GIGAFABs," Sun said.
Quote: Sun noted that 20SoC uses "second generation," gate-last HMKG technology and uses 64nm interconnect. Compared to the 28HPM process, it can offer a 20% speed improvement and 30% power reduction, in addition to a 1.9X density increase. Nearly 1,000 TSMC engineers are preparing for a "steep ramp" of this technology. Reply
Refuge - Thursday, July 25, 2013 - linkI think you have high hopes good sir, but I disagree with you on this one.
I would be struck silly if this came on a 20nm process when released. Reply
watersb - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkCrikey. Reply
wizfactor - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkThose are some fantastic numbers! While I'm all for seeing Logan in future SOCs, I'm not a huge fan of seeing them in Tegra. If developers need to rebuild their mobile games (see Riptide GP for Android) just to optimize it for your chip, you're doing something wrong. I have yet to hear anecdotes about how pleasant an experience it is to port an Android game to a proprietary chip such as Tegra.
With that said, I'd love to see this GPU on other chipsets such as the Exynos, or even Apple's A-series chips. I can't help but think that Nvidia is teasing Apple into a license agreement here. I mean, the very fact that Apple could get more than double the graphics performance on their iPad 4 with a Kepler GPU under the exact same power constraint must ring music to their ears. They could either dramatically increase iPad performance and eliminate any performance woes involved with driving that Retina Display, or they could get a massive boost in battery life while keeping performance levels similar.
Of course, it's Apple's call if they want to swap out Imagination for Nvidia. Let's hope Cupertino isn't too attached to its investment in the former. Reply
michael2k - Friday, July 26, 2013 - linkWhy would they want to swap out with NVIDIA? The PowerVR Series 6, of comparable performance, was available for license last January, and expected to be out in production this year. What you miss is that with the Power VR S6 they can get more than four times the graphics performance of an iPad 4 one year earlier than with a Kepler GPU; why would they wait a year then? Reply
jipe4153 - Tuesday, July 30, 2013 - linkTheir isn't a single high end PowerVR 6 such as the G6630 planned for production yet. It's just been paper launched.
- No engineering samples, nothing!
- Just numbers on a paper!
Furthermore their peak paper product, the G6630 is slated for a peak performance of ~230 GFLOPS, which is almost half the performance that logan is sporting!
Logan has the winning recipe:
- Most powerful hardware
- Good efficiency
- Best sofware and driver stack on the market!
This is going to be a major upset on the mobile market. Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Friday, December 20, 2013 - linkAnd yet, Apple shipped with a series 6 GPU and not an nVidia one. Where's the major upset? Reply
brianlew0827 - Friday, August 02, 2013 - linkI guess michael2k is paid by or probably worked for Imgtech since every single post by him is to praise PowerVR. Reply


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Winner in the Monitoring Management & Performance Category of Readers' Choice Awards: ManageIQ Enterprise Virtualization Management Suite
March 25, 2010 – ManageIQ Enterprise Virtualization Management Suite was selected the winner in the Monitoring Management & Performance category of the VirtualizationAdmin.com Readers' Choice Awards. NetIQ AppManager Suite and eG VM Monitor were first runner-up and second runner-up respectively.
|ManageIQ Enterprise Virtualization Management Suite
|NetIQ AppManager Suite
|eG VM Monitor
|Advanced System Management
|XTS Introspect
|Enigmatec Virtual Orchestrator (EVO)
|Netuitive SI for VMware
"Our Readers' Choice Awards give visitors to our site the opportunity to vote for the products they view as the very best in their respective category," said Sean Buttigieg, VirtualizationAdmin.com manager. "VirtualizationAdmin.com users are specialists in their field who encounter various solutions for virtualization at the workplace. The award serves as a mark of excellence, providing the ultimate recognition from peers within the industry."
VirtualizationAdmin.com conducts bi-monthly polls to discover which product is preferred by administrators in a particular category of third party solutions for virtualization environments. The awards draw a huge response per category and are based entirely on the visitors' votes. VirtualizationAdmin.com users can submit their votes for the current Readers' Award poll in the site's left-hand bar.
VirtualizationAdmin.com Readers' Choice Awards for 2010
Even more awards will be given out during 2009. Visitors to VirtualizationAdmin.com will once again have the opportunity to vote for their preferred products by submitting their votes for the Readers' Choice Award poll in the site's left-hand bar. Below is a list of the Readers' Choice categories and the month that visitors can submit their votes.
- Monitoring Management & Performance - January 2010 - ManageIQ Enterprise Virtualization Management Suite
- Backup & Recovery - March 2010 - Acronis True Image Server for Windows
- Application Servers - May 2010
- HypeHypervisors - July 2010 - VMware ESX
- Security - September 2010 - VMware VMSafe
- P2V & V2V Conversions - November 2010 - VMware vCenter Converter
About Virtualizationadmin.com
VirtualizationAdmin.com (http://www.VirtualizationAdmin.com) is a Virtualization resource site. It is a leading Virtualization site, attracting over 70,000 administrators and specialists a month. The site provides the latest Virtualization news, articles and tutorials by leading Virtualization experts, message boards, an exclusive FAQ, software listings and product reviews.
VirtualizationAdmin.com forms part of a group of sites run by TechGenix Ltd., including http://www.windowsnetworking.com - a comprehensive Windows Networking resource site; http://www.msexchange.org, a Microsoft Exchange Server resource site; http://www.windowsecurity.com, a Windows security resource site and http://www.isaserver.org, a Microsoft ISA Server resource site
All product and company names herein may be trademarks of their respective owners.

subset: commoncrawl


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Over in the Star-Ledger, Andy McCullough has a dispiriting but useful article about the Mets and Jon Niese.
McCullough writes:
"A season ago, when the Mets listened to offers for Niese, the pitcher might not have been considered worth a sizable offer. A young starter needs to show 'consistency for clubs to be comfortable,' one executive said.
"Has he done enough this season to show that quality? The Mets will likely explore as much this winter."
The whole piece is worth a read. But it's also worth stepping back and considering exactly what trading Niese means.
For one thing, Niese has been a consistent starting pitcher for three years now. And unlike 2010 and 2011, he looks to be finishing strong.
Accordingly, that deal the Mets signed him to this spring appears to be a bargain. Niese will be owed three million dollars in 2013, five million in 2014, seven million in 2015 and nine million in 2016. The team also holds a ten million dollar option in 2017 and eleven million in 2018. So if Niese stays this good, he'll be a bargain through most of the rest of the decade. Even eleven million dollars is a solid value for the kind of pitching Niese gave the Mets in 2012. According to Fangraphs, his 2011 was worth $12 million; his 2012 has been worth $9.7 million already.
All this is to say that Niese is a good bet to be an asset for the Mets any time between now and 2018. If the idea in building a contending team, ideally, is to mass as many good players at similar ages together at the same time, then there's really no plan the Mets can have between now and 2018 that shouldn't involve putting players around Niese. Not because he's dominant, but because he stands a very good chance of being one of those good players.
Now obviously, this comes with the caveat that an offer which bowls the Mets over is one to consider. But if the return is just a good prospect or two, it leads to the question: just what are the Mets building toward? And if Niese is expendable because his upcoming peak doesn't fit the time horizon of when the Mets expect to be good, just why are the Mets keeping David Wright beyond 2013, when he'll be 31, or R.A. Dickey, when he'll be 39?
This is not an endorsement for failing to retain either of them. Instead, it is the natural follow to failing to do things like keep Jose Reyes around, or add other talent to the major league club for several years now. It's how a team falls into endless rebuilding: let a few parts go, see the major league team fall into disrepair, and what's the point of adding talent?
I've had no shortage of discussions on Twitter with people who argued the Mets might as well have let Jose Reyes go, since they weren't going to contend with Reyes on the team anyway. And that's, of course, a ridiculous way to evaluate a player's worth to a team. No one player's acquisition or retention would have meant contention for the 2012 Mets. Use that standard, and no player will ever be retained, thus putting the Mets further and further from contention, and continuing the cycle.
The flip side to that argument is equally fallacious- that a team must do something. But what major league teams ought to do, regardless of where they fall in the rebuilding cycle, is to acquire and retain players who can be valuable to them for many years. Reyes, an elite shortstop in his 20s, is one such player. He signed a six-year deal with the Marlins. If the Mets don't have a plan that calls for them to contend by year 3-4 of that deal, they aren't doing it right.
The same is true for Niese. Witness this quote from McCullough, an absolutely accurate one:
"Players like second baseman Daniel Murphy and outfielder Lucas Duda will garner some interest this winter. But they will only return so much. 'Nobody's really going to give you an impact guy for a non-impact guy,' one executive said."
In other words, the Mets have let most of their valuable players go. They won't get anything of value for Duda or Murphy. But with Niese, they can flip him for a couple of prospects, surround them with… well, whatever happens to be on hand. Maybe Matt Harvey can replace Dickey's production, and perhaps Zack Wheeler can turn into Jon Niese or better.
And in a few years, they can be a few pieces away, and in need of a consistent, effective starter like Jon Niese. Or things don't go well-they often don't with young pitching, hence the desire of many other teams to add a pitcher like Niese.
So the Mets can just start again. Again.


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Cook pasta as package directs, and drain. While the pasta is cooking, place all other ingredients in a food processor or blender and pulse until smooth and creamy. Mix the pesto in with the hot, drained pasta and serve.
Per serving - 366 calories, 17 gram fat (40% calories from fat), 11 gram protein, 46 gram carbohydrate, 6 gram fiber, 0 milligram cholesterol, 115 milligram sodium


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Deerfield, Ill. -- Walgreens unveiled its newest Chicago flagship, in the historic Noel State Bank building in the city's Bucktown/Wicker Park neighborhood (click here to see photos). This is the chain's second flagship in Chicago and, like its downtown State and Randolph flagship location, features an extensive collection of innovative offerings, products and services unexpected from a drugstore.
The store preserves the architectural integrity of the historic building, which was constructed in 1919. (The original bank fell closed during the Great Depression, and the space has housed several different banks over the decades.) For the last two years, Walgreens worked closely with the city's Commission on Chicago Landmarks on the building restoration. The exterior is clad entirely in ornamental terra cotta. Large windows are divided by rising pilasters topped with Corinthian capitals, and a prominent cornice wraps around the rounded corner of the building.
Extensive restoration took place on the building's coffered plaster ceiling, which features abundant non-symmetrical hexagons that frame griffins and other ornate designs, all of which form into successive yet subtle Star of David patterns. At the center is a large stained glass window with a six-point star design. Walgreens also restored the interior columns topped with pilasters and the original bank vault, which will be repurposed as a "Vitamin Vault" in the store's health and wellness section.
The store's features include:
- Vitamin Vault: The original cast iron safe entrance, with visible locking gears, will lead customers into a unique vitamin and supplement section. Original bank lockboxes open and display various vitamin products.
- An enhanced, state-of-the-art pharmacy designed to encourage greater interaction between pharmacists and patients. An iPad-equipped health guide will help pharmacy customers navigate a wide range of health and wellness products, services and resources including immunizations and health tests. The pharmacy also features an "Ask Your Pharmacist" desk, consultation rooms and Express Rx kiosks for swift checkout.
- A juice bar featuring fresh fruits and vegetables and made-to-order smoothies. The chocolate malted milkshake, invented by a Walgreens soda fountain manager in 1922, also will be served.
- Hundreds of fresh food items including produce and high-quality, on-the-go meal options such as wraps, sandwiches and salads made fresh daily. Plus, a wide variety of sushi and sashimi.
- A best-in-class wine selection boasting more than 700 fine wines.
- A Look Boutique beauty department featuring dozens of prestige and niche brands not typically found in drug stores. Specially-trained beauty advisors are on hand to offer guidance finding the best solutions for individual needs. Expert shaping and grooming services will be available at the Eyebrow Bar.
"It was thrilling to restore this architectural gem once again into a thriving business anchor in the Bucktown/Wicker Park area," said Joe Magnacca, Walgreens president of daily living products and solutions. "This flagship store will provide customers with a unique shopping experience within an iconic building. It's the latest example of how we are stepping out of the traditional drugstore format and helping people get, stay and live well."


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Prosecutors reject guilty plea offer from accused killer of Penn Hills officer
The Allegheny County District Attorney's Office on Thursday rejected a guilty plea offer from attorneys representing a Homewood man accused of killing a Penn Hills police officer and another man.
Mike Manko, a spokesman for District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr., said defense attorneys offered to have Ronald Robinson, 35, plead guilty and serve two life terms. Prosecutors are seeking the death penalty.
Zappala's office rejected the plea after speaking with the victims' families. Manko wouldn't disclose what relatives of Officer Michael Crawshaw and Danyal Morton said.
"Our office has an ethical responsibility to both consider the offer and communicate the offer to the family of the victims," Manko said.
Defense attorney Patrick Thomassey declined comment.
Jury selection resumed in the afternoon.
Former county prosecutor Stephie Ramaley said when plea offers are made, they are usually discussed with families and police.
Then, "the families of victims and the police make a joint decision," said Ramaley, who works at the North Side law firm Burns White.
"Allegheny County does not seek the death penalty often. Typically when they do, (the victims) are law enforcement, children or multiple people," she said.
"Other (district attorneys) go after the death penalty in every case in order to get a plea to first-degree murder. The Allegheny County District Attorney's Office doesn't work that way."
Prosecutors charged Robinson with fatally shooting Morton, 40, of Penn Hills, and Crawshaw, 32, on Dec. 6, 2009. Police said Robinson killed Morton in a Penn Hills home over a $500 drug debt, left the house and fired at Crawshaw, striking him several times while he still was in his patrol car.
Henry Wiehagen, president of the county Fraternal Order of Police Lodge No. 91, said he favors the death penalty for cop killers.
"(Crawshaw's killing) was more or less an ambush. I have no problem with the death penalty in certain circumstances. I'd pull the switch," Wiehagen said.
But he added, "We have a good working relationship with the DA, and whatever his decision is fine by me."
Even if a jury gives Robinson the death penalty, he may never receive lethal injection.
Pennsylvania's death row holds 204 convicted killers, the fourth most in the country. It has executed only three killers since the death penalty was reinstated in 1978 and none in the past decade.
Bruce Antkowiak, head of the criminology and law program at St. Vincent College near Latrobe, said by the time a case is ready for trial, prosecutors have thought about plea bargains and decided to push forward with the capital case.
"Many have already contemplated the alternatives, and they think (death) is appropriate," he said.
Jury selection in the case began Monday, and five jurors have been seated.
Bobby Kerlik is a staff writer for Trib Total Media. He can be reached at 412-320-7886 or email@example.com.


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Ancestry has just put online an additional 300,000 poor law records for London. This is great news for those of us who have "lost" some ancestors in London ! The blurb from Ancestry says the new collection is everything from registers of servants (why these would be classed as poor law records I can't imagine!!) to workhouse admission books.
I'm off to see if I can find any of my lost souls …… I'll report back more fully when I have seen what's there ….. might be a while!!


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Lemon Pear Pie Recipe
My husband loves all kinds of fruit, so he's a big fan of this fast-to-fix pie. The lemon and pear flavors taste fantastic together.—Carolina Hofeldt, Lloyd, Montana
- 2 large eggs, lightly beaten
- 1 cup sugar
- 1/4 cup lemon juice
- 1 tablespoon butter
- 1 teaspoon grated lemon peel
- 3 cans (15 ounces each) pear halves, drained and cubed
- 1 unbaked pastry shell (9 inches)
- 1. In a saucepan, combine the first five ingredients. Cook and stir over low heat for 10 minutes or until thickened and bubbly. Remove from the heat; fold in pears. Pour into pastry shell.
- 2. Bake at 350° for 50-55 minutes or until crust is golden brown and filling is bubbly. Cool on a wire rack for 1 hour. Store pie in the refrigerator. Yield: 6-8 servings.
Reviews for Lemon Pear Pie
Average Rating
Reviewed Feb. 7, 2010
"very good. I will make this one offten"
© 2017 RDA Enthusiast Brands, LLC


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Today, auto art, or, Carol loves steering wheels (and one side view mirror). Those dash boards are not half bad either. Toss in a few pair of fuzzy dice and, well, what's not to love?
This and that from my world of Family Research, Yorkies, Photography, RV's and Traveling.
Liked you comment about genealogists and family historians. One goes with the other. I wear both hats. Maybe we should follow each other.
Regards, Grant
Thanks Grant. I wear both hats as well. I follow you from G+. Thanks for reading!


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WASHINGTON, April 9, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- At the first annual Regen Med Investor Day, Advanced Cell Technology, Inc. ("ACT"; OTCBB: ACTC), Cytomedix, Inc. (OTCQX: CMXI) and Mesoblast Limited will be just three of the 16 leading regenerative medicine companies providing updates on recent corporate and clinical milestones. The Alliance for Regenerative Medicine also announced today that the final panelists have been determined for the three disease sessions which will focus on cardiovascular disease, wound healing and tissue engineering and CNS diseases. The Regen Med Investor Day is the first investor event organized specifically for the regenerative medicine sector and will take place next Wednesday, April 17 at the Harmonie Club, 4 East 60th Street, New York, NY.
(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20130409/NE91351LOGO )
Presentation HighlightsIn addition to the three companies featured below, the program will include presentations by: Aastrom, Asterias, Athersys, Cytori, Juventas, MiMedx, NeoStem, Organogenesis, Organovo, Pluristem, Sangamo, StemCells, Inc. and Tigenix.
ACT is currently conducting three human embryonic stem cell-based clinical trials for forms of macular degeneration: two in the U.S. and one in Europe. The company recently announced initiation of treatment of the third patient cohort in the two U.S. trials.
Cytomedix recently announced the achievement of several key milestones in their commercialization efforts for autologous regenerative technologies: (i) on March 8, 2013, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) issued coding and reimbursement claim instructions for autologous PRP in non-healing chronic wounds; (ii) on March 1, 2013, CMS granted formal approval of the protocols for AutoloGel under Coverage with Evidence Development (CED); (iii) in December 2012, a European CE Mark was granted for the Angel cPRP System for processing blood and bone marrow aspirate; (iv) the FDA granted clearance for the Angel cPRP System to process bone marrow aspirate; and (v) a Phase 2 clinical study with ALD-301 (Bright Cells) was announced for patients with an intermittent claudication indication associated with peripheral artery disease, in collaboration with the NIH. These approvals have the potential to significantly expand the commercial opportunities for Cytomedix.
Mesoblast Limited recently strengthened its financial position to drive its independent clinical programs to commercial outcomes, particularly in the areas of degenerative disease of the lumbar spine and in the treatment of inflammatory and immune-mediated conditions. In the largest capital raising for a biotech company this year, the adult stem cell company made a targeted private placement of shares raising A$170 million and boosting its cash reserves to A$332 million.
Disease-Focused SessionsSpeakers for the program's three panel discussions have been finalized:
Clinical Outlooks in Cardiovascular Disease
Jason Kolbert, Managing Director, Biotechnology Research, Maxim Group (moderator)Ronnda Bartel, Ph.D., CSO, Aastrom BiosciencesChristopher Calhoun, CEO, Cytori Therapeutics, Inc.Silviu Itescu, M.B.B.S., CEO & President, Mesoblast LimitedLinda Marban, Ph.D., Founder & CEO, CapricorLeslie Miller, M.D., Director, USF Heart Institute; Director, Cardiovascular Regenerative Medicine Program, University of South Florida
Regenerative Medicine in Wound Healing & Tissue Engineering
Ted Tenthoff, Managing Director & Senior Biotechnology Analyst, Piper Jaffray (moderator)Milka Bedikian, Vice President, Global Marketing, Bioactive Wound Healing, Organogenesis Inc.Pierre Gosselin, Ph.D., Senior Director, Business Development, Shire Regenerative MedicineWill Li, M.D., President & Medical Director, The Angiogenesis FoundationMartin Rosendale, CEO, Cytomedix, Inc.Thomas Serena, M.D., F.A.C.S., CEO & Medical Director, SerenaGroup
Therapeutics for a Broad Range of CNS Diseases
Ren Benjamin, Ph.D., Managing Director & Senior Biotechnology Analyst, Burrill Securities (moderator)Aileen Anderson, Ph.D., Associate Professor, Department of Anatomy & Neurobiology, University of California, IrvineLucian Del Priore, M.D., Ph.D., Pierre G. Jenkins Professor, Chairman, Department of Ophthalmology & Director, Storm Eye InstituteStephen Huhn, M.D., F.A.C.S., Vice President, Head of the CNS Program, StemCells Inc.Gary Rabin, Chairman & CEO, Advanced Cell TechnologySean Savitz, M.D., Professor of Neurology, University of Texas Medical School, UTHealthGil Van Bokkelen, Ph.D., Chairman & CEO, Athersys, Inc.Lawrence Wechsler, M.D., Professor & Chair, Department of Neurology, University of Pittsburgh
About the Regen Med Investor DayCo-hosted by leading financial firms Burrill & Company, Maxim Group and Piper Jaffray, this one-day, high-impact program will provide institutional investors and life science analysts with insight from the industry's leading small- and mid-cap companies as well as exclusive access to regenerative medicine's top stakeholders. Full details on the program can be found at http://alliancerm.org/event/regen-med-investor-day.
RSVP is required. Credentialed investors, life science strategic partners and members of the media should contact Laura Parsons at email@example.com if interested in attending.
About the Alliance for Regenerative MedicineThe Alliance for Regenerative Medicine (ARM) is a Washington, DC-based non-profit organization that promotes legislative, regulatory, reimbursement, and financing initiatives necessary to facilitate access to life-giving advances in regenerative medicine. ARM also works to increase public understanding of the field and its potential to transform human healthcare, and provides services to support the growth of its member companies and organizations. Prior to the formation of ARM, there was no advocacy organization operating in Washington, DC to specifically represent the interests of regenerative medicine companies, research institutions, investors, and patient groups supporting more rapid adoption of technologies in our field. To learn more about ARM or to become a member, visit www.alliancerm.org.
Media Contact:Michelle LinnLinnden CommunicationsPhone: 508-362-3087
SOURCE Alliance for Regenerative Medicine


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Inspired by an extremely sticky evening and Drink Up, I started my weekend early with Darryl Robinson's gin cocktail, the Cu Collins. Gin is one of my favorite liquors because of its distinctive flavors—gins are re-distilled to infuse them with spices and flavors from juniper berries and other botanicals. Darryl's riff on a Tom Collins (traditionally mixed with gin, lemon juice, sugar and soda water) includes cucumber, herbs (I used basil) and lime. It's pure genius—limeade with a cool, refreshing and bubbly twist, all complimenting the herbal notes of the gin. I could (and might!) drink this all summer long.
4 More to Mix:
Irresistible Favorite: Tequila Sangria from Drink Up
A Very Cool Take: Icebreaker Mojitos from Chuck's Day Off
Simple Twist: Tequila Lemonade from Chuck's Day Off
A New Way to Drink Beer: Darryl's Ginger Ale from Drink Up