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AnandTech/Intel S3700 Roundtable Discussion & Webcast Videos Liveby Anand Lal Shimpi on 11/16/2012 11:16 AM EST
- Posted in
- Storage
- IT Computing
- SSDs
- Intel
- Cloud Computing
33 Comments
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Bullwinkle J Moose - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkThis was my original question in the first 3700 article at this site
Did I miss something?
With 1:1 mapping, this this sounds like the Worlds first truly O.S. agnostic controller
Does it require an O.S. with Trim or a partition offset for XP use, or did Intel just make the Worlds first universal SSD?
The 320 may have handled partition offsets internally but still required Trim for best performance
Please correct me if I'm wrong
The readers all basically told me I was wrong in the first article, however.....
The webcast made it clear that Trim is no longer required
If Intel kept the partition offset fix in firmware or if that offset fix is implemented at some point, this IS the worlds first truly Universal SSD that does not require a specific O.S. to run optimally
So Anand, did Intel just create the Worlds first Truly Universal SSD with this or did they drop the partition offset fix that was used on some earlier Intell SSD's
What I mean is, can this be used with ANY O.S. and still get optimal performance without ANY tweaks of any kind? Reply
extide - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkALL SSD's will ALWAYS get better performance when they are aligned properly, AND when TRIM is being used. Reply
Bullwinkle J Moose - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkTrim is basically a waste of time for this drive as explained in the first video, and if alignment is corrected in firmware, then this would truly be the Word's first Universal SSD with zero tweaks required for ANY O.S.
PLUG AND PLAY BAYBEE Reply
Bullwinkle J Moose - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkPLUG AND PLAY BAYBEE
Sorry, that was a bad John McAfee impersonation Reply
jack.fxx - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkYou should learn how to distinguish between marketing BS and real information. What the Intel guy was saying about TRIM was pure BS. The fact is, that TRIM on S3700 will considerably reduce write aplification and therefore increase endurance. If you don't use trim, S3700 will wear out faster, which means more $$ for Intel. Reply
Bullwinkle J Moose - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkMarketing BS?
What does Anand have to say on the matter?
The silence is deafening Reply
Bullwinkle J Moose - Wednesday, November 21, 2012 - linkD E A F E N I N G ! Reply
CaedenV - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkdon't get me wrong, I love Intel products, and I really love the Anandtech website, but this (and the live podcast video) just feel so forced and scripted and just so... not anandtech.
this video in particular make it look like there are 3 Intel employees giving you an interrogation, or an exit interview from a brainwashing exercise.
iDunno... maybe it is just me. Reply
CaedenV - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkAgain, it is a cool product... it is just how the interviews look/feel that I am put off by. Reply
DigitalFreak - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkThe pictures all have a purple tint to them. Were they taken with an iPhone 5? ;-) Reply
Jaaap - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkThis video is NOT anandtech worthy.
That's not surprising, since there's a marketing dude in it.
Never invite a marketing person to an anandtech video.
They make everybody smile very artificially and use these awful marketing terms all the time.
It looked like anand tried to make the best of it given the circumstances but still...
I suggest next time Anand takes his own camera and cuts the techy pieces into his own video piece. Reply
sideshow23bob - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkSays video has been removed by user. Hopefully get's reuploaded or relinked Reply
Galvin - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkhttp://intelstudios.edgesuite.net/121113_sc12/arch... Reply
creed3020 - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkThat is the webcast video not the round table discussion.
Please bring back the video Anand! Reply
douglaswilliams - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkNice FiveFingers Anand. If I'm ever in Raleigh I'll request a few miles of trail running with you!
Douglas Reply
Individumm - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkHey Anand, I really like your detailed reviews and wanted to make a suggestion to even improve them, but it would be off topic here and I didn't find a way to contact you directly. You can answer to my mail address. Thanks a lot! Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkClick Anand's name at the top of the article, it will open up an email window with Anand as the received.
If your questions and suggestions are SSD related, you can CC me as well (firstname.lastname@example.com) Reply
nutgirdle - Friday, November 16, 2012 - linkWould it be possible to post a transcript? Parsing text is an order of magnitude faster than spoken word for most people. Reply
swindmill - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkThis article and embedded videos read/watch like a commercial for Intel. I'm sure the new controller is great and all but Anand in the videos appears to be nothing more than a giddy Intel shill waiting for his royalty check. Reply
Bullwinkle J Moose - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkWHEN (not "if") Intel makes a consumer version of this, I want the following>
1. At least ONE Partition Agnostic Firmware version
2. A Write Protection Switch
3. So durable that it would "likely" have 50 - 100 year data protection, even if the warranty is only 5 years
GET ON IT Reply
mayankleoboy1 - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkcan we have a transcript of this please ? Reply
mckirkus - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkGreat moment in the 2nd video (12:00) when he asks Anand "So is this the new gold standard for a SSD for you?" You could almost imagine the Intel market team, fingers hovering over the mouse button, press release ready with "AnandTech calls the S3700 the new Gold Standard in SSDs!"
They're either underestimating Anand's understanding of this technology or their year end bonuses are somehow tied to getting talking points injected into this discussion.
Either way, this is a great product, and I finally feel comfortable going to our IT director with a solution to our database performance woes. Reply
truk007 - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkLove the effort, but I have to agree... it seemed mildly scripted or directed. Like a late night info-commercial.
Keep doing them though. Hope more companies contribute. Reply
jb510 - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkThis kind of reminds me Intel's early marketing push behind light peak. It's smart of them to reach out to early adopter / tech savvy voices on things like this with thier engineering staff at then microphone and they're getting good at it.
I like that Anand got to talk with them so extensively with them, but the 7 min version does feel a bit "promotional". As a one off/occasional thing I think it does an OK job of fitting in on AT as long as it doesn't become a frequent thing. I kind of expect SOME talk of harswares failings/limitations and where something could improve on this site. Reply
Smackalope - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkDisappointed with the video. Unless I missed some hidden content, the video was mostly a marketing piece for Intel. This is how I envision any one marketing their new product. Was hoping for more technical content. Reply
zappb - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkNot talking about the SSD! Reply
JellyRoll - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkThis is obviously sponsored content from Intel, and brings into question the accuracy of any "reviews" from Anand. It is hard to believe content when it is obviously sponsored. Sites that feature sponsored content should reveal that information at the top of the review, as true enterprise websites do. Reply
zappb - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkI think nerves came across as sales - They were nervous at the start of the round table, there was no scrip - definitely no script.
"Our customers, Great Product, Customers Asked and We delivered to Our Customers, Because They Asked Us For it, and now they have it! "etc...and then they echo each other, Anand tried to ground it a bit, but there was no beer around the table to help.... Reply
McSteel - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkSo Intel is promoting a well-thought-out, high-quality product. Anand helps them do it. I don't have a problem with that, and neither should you people. Test methodology is the same for all reviewed SSDs that are directly compared. I seriously doubt anyone is fabricating screenshots or posting false results... This video was supposed to be more about direction and design philosophy, rather than technical Q&A. Besides, the DC S3700 has already been put through it's paces, with relevant tech details published. Talking about it again would've been redundant, don't you think?
Allison is cute BTW Reply
JellyRoll - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkIf he is part of the team promoting a well-thought-out, high-quality product, he shouldn't be posting "impartial reviews".
He then becomes a spokesperson for said product.
This is why actors say "My name is XXX, and I endorse this product:", it is about credibility. Reply
JellyRoll - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkThis video took place AFTER the initial review. Anand is asking questions that he already has the answers to, the review went up prior. That means that this is a staged event. There is definitely payola involved in this video.
This calls into question the validity of previous, and future, product evaluations. There should be full disclosure. Reply
Pessimism - Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - linkHe used "ATM Machine" *facepalm* Reply
ionis - Sunday, November 25, 2012 - linkI don't have an SSD so I haven't been able to try TRIM.
Why can't TRIM offer a consistent user experience while this new controller can? Reply


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Intel Explains 20nm NAND Endurance Concerns on the SSD 335by Anand Lal Shimpi on 11/17/2012 1:49 PM EST
- Posted in
- Storage
- SSDs
- Intel
- Intel SSD 335
31 Comments
Back to Article
SetiroN - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linki was convinced that the time of immediate failures was done, that big drive compromising firmware issues were a thing of the past...
shame on samsung and their testing. Reply
jwilliams4200 - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkAlso, shame on the people reporting the failures (anandtech, respected poster on hardforum) for not specifying their firmware versions.
It looks like anandtech's 840 Pro review units may have both had firmware DXM02B0Q. Anand, can you confirm this?
It is possible that the hardforum poster also has a pre-release firmware, but he will not be able to confirm until Tuesday.
My 256GB 840 Pro purchased from newegg has firmware DXM03B0Q.
At this point, I am crossing my fingers that all the failed 840 Pro SSDs have firmware -2B0Q and that the problem is already fixed with version -3B0Q. Hopefully we have confirmation of this early next week. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkThat's actually what I'm waiting to confirm. Both samples died before I recorded firmware revisions unfortunately.
Take care,
Anand Reply
jwilliams4200 - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkHopefully you learned from this experience!
When I get a new SSD, the very first thing I do is grab a screenshot of CrystalDiskInfo showing the firmware version, serial number, and SMART data. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkHaha, the funny thing is that as soon as I get a drive it almost immediately has to go into some of our longer performance tests since the embargo lift is typically only a matter of days away.
Take care,
Anand Reply
jwilliams4200 - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkIs that a joke? It takes 30 seconds to open CrystalDiskInfo and grab a screenshot. Reply
orionb - Sunday, December 02, 2012 - linkIsn't hindsight great?
Don't be unreasonable. There are always things that go wrong with the launch of a new product, and nobody knows which of the thousand possibilities it's going to be.
Now people know to record the firmware version for the future. they know for the future. Reply
orionb - Sunday, December 02, 2012 - linkOops, typos. Anand... update your comment system ;) Reply
jwilliams4200 - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkThe hardforum poster who had four Samsung 840 Pros fail just posted that he did not have a record of the firmware version, and the SSDs are now bricked so the firmware version cannot be determined.
It looks like we will not be finding out the firmware version for either anandtech's nor the hardforum poster's 840 Pro failures.
If only people had recorded basic information about their new SSDs before they began testing them... Reply
seapeople - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkIf only the recently released premium performance flagship solid state drive from the most recognizable and reliable brand on the market didn't have major firmware issues.
I mean, we should be getting to the point where the first thing someone thinks after getting a solid state drive is "Ooh goodie, let's see how it performs!" rather than "Ooh goodie, let's record driver information in case it bricks itself immediately!"
It's not like people who buy a new Intel processor have to go through this junk. Reply
jwilliams4200 - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkI was referring to people testing new products. Not end users, who I never recommend to buy a new SSD until at least 3 - 6 months after release, for the reason you allude to. Reply
sheh - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkIf it drops at the same rate as P/E cycles, does this mean we're already approaching 5 years of retention for new cells (conjecture/extrapolation based on very little info on the topic I could find around)? Are manufacturers adhering to the JEDEC standard of 1 year retention at a cell's end of life? Is this at MWI of 0 or afterwards? Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkAt the end of the useful life of the NAND (somewhere beyond MWI == 0), retention should be 1 year for a consumer drive. Enterprise drives that boast eMLC will instead optimize for 3 month retention at the end of life.
Take care,
Anand Reply
seapeople - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkWait, so it was a bad idea to use about 20 Intel 335's for our town's time capsule project last week? We have BILLIONS of photos that were locked away under the new Community Center... and a bootleg version of Hurt Locker. Reply
HollyDOL - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkIn your use case I suspect the drives will cover with rust than die on MWI. Bear in mind you actually have to write to the SSD to wear it out.
I am more worried about little green aliens digging the drives in 1000 years trying to figure out SATA3 :-)) Reply
sparkuss - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkI look at 5.7 years and really don't worry for my home system, but wonder with a WIn7 OS and active AV and other running processes left on 24/7.
How many writes are adding up each day just by the OS and active processes. That's before I actually run other things likes games and email, internet etc. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkI did this experiment on my own machine a while back and came out with something around 10GB of writes per day.
Take care,
Anand Reply
MrSpadge - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkI've been using an Agility 3 60 GB as SRT cache drive for the HDD in my desktop. It's running 24/7 BOINC, some games etc. I'm seeing 438 days of run time, 5.87 TB written, 5.78 TB read, media wear out at 0% (life left 100%). If this counter works I have nothing to worry about at 13.4 GB/day. Reply
LMF5000 - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkSo I gather that smaller process nodes lead to worse flash memory performance and longevity, instead of improving the performance as in the case of other kinds of integrated ciruits. So the question is, why move to smaller process nodes in the first place? Couldn't the same cost reductions be obtained by optimising and maturing the larger process nodes? Then at least you wouldn't be limited to 1000 write cycles instead of 3000. Incidentally with these endurance numbers the smaller process node would only a net improvement if they cost one third the price per GB. Otherwise the price per total endurance (i.e. write cycles x drive capacity) would be greater and we'd be worse-off. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkYields on a known process do improve over time, but at mature yields the ability to cram ~1.5x - 2.0x the number of transistors into the same area will always win in terms of driving pricing down.
Until we run out of NAND roadmap, Intel claims it will be able to maintain current levels of endurance. We've got a couple more shrinks to go through.
Take care,
Anand Reply
mmonnin03 - Tuesday, November 20, 2012 - linkAs the process nodes shrink there are fewer and fewer cells to hold the charge in a NAND cell. And as you shrink there is a smaller gate oxide (area) and often times thinner oxide trapping that charge in the cell. Also keep in mind for MLC, it must differentiate between 4 possible voltages in the cell. 0 and 1 for 2 bits. For TLC it goes up agains. So as process nodes shrink it becomes harder to hold the charge and harder to read that charge, thus it becomes slower as ECC grows exponentially.
At some point I don't see NAND being what we want it to be in terms of reliability and cost. The number of Immersion scanners need to produce it will raise chip costs and the reliability will be to low. Reply
Beenthere - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkRushed to market SSDs - for profit over performance and reliability. Who knew? Answer: Anyone with a clue.
Not to worry, five or ten firmware updates should make the latest SSDs almost usable. Good Lord there must be two suckers born every second.
Oh yeah, don't forget that Anand himself said: "SSD technology is immature..." and that "...consumers should wait 6-12 months before buying". That fact applies to the current trick-of-the-week, rushed to market SSDs from Intel and Samsung.
If people refused to buy this crap then the SSD makers will spend more time validating the hardware or lose sales.
BTW, as we see from the story above Intel's SSDs are no better than Samsung's or many of the other brands - most of which have issues of one sort or another - because they have not been properly validated. Reply
Meaker10 - Saturday, November 17, 2012 - linkIntel has left the toilet seat up where as others have left the front door wide open when leaving.
This is a basic counter with no bearing on functionality so I have no idea wtf you are going on about. Reply
MrSpadge - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - link+1 Reply
seapeople - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkWhat he's going on about is that companies should release these drives with "BETA TEST VERSION, USE AT OWN RISK" tattooed all over the box for at least the first 3 months, maybe 6 months for the worst brands. Reply
boshi - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkI don't know if this is enough to make the assertion that "Intel's SSDs are no better than Samsung's or many of the other brands".
This is an issue that many ( who would not even know that the MWI existed ) would never encounter, and it happened on a review sample running a pre-release firmware.
I'm not sure that anyone reporting on SSD failures have a large enough sample size to report anything useful about their failure rates. Reply
Beenthere - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkIntel has not demonstrated that their SSDs are more reliable or compatible than any other brand of SSDs. They have had issues with their SSDs as have most other SSD makers - because the drives are never properly validated but instead are rushed to market for great profit.
The fact that unscrupulous SSD makers continue to rush unvalidated products to maket for naive consumers to buy and become un-paid Beta Testers, is a disgrace. Anand was more tacful, but the fact remains that many consumer grade SSDs are simply not ready for Prime Time.
It's a bad joke to see SSD makers introduce a new series of SSDs every month or two. They haven't even corrected the problems with the last 3 SSD series but they continue to crank more garbage out for gullible consumers to lap up. Reply
jwilliams4200 - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkAnand:
You really need to add a "report SPAM" button to your comment software.
The SPAM comments seem to stay up for quite a while. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, November 19, 2012 - linkThe admins (e.g. me, Anand, Ryan, and some others) have a Spam button that we can use to delete comments. It might take a day or two before we notice, but we'll get it eventually. If you really want to report spam, though, email me: firstname.lastname@example.com. Give me the article name and the user name and I'll usually be around to delete it within the hour (and sometimes within minutes). Thanks! Reply
bim27142 - Sunday, November 18, 2012 - linkso MWI for my 330 was inaccurate and i guess this was something that is not to be truly happy afterall... Reply
emvonline - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkSince we know 20nm has lower reliability endurance than 25nm (it always does). And we know intel tagged the nand as 1500 cycles. Doesnt it make more sense that the endurance is 1500 cycles ... and intel plans.3000 cycles.in future ... when they properly.tag.the nand. Measure the wearout rate and see if 330 or 335 wears out faster.
Neither matters.since the drive will last 5 years at spec'd writes. ... but the simplest answer is probably correct on the endurance claims Reply


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Former Garrettsville resident Colt Knost finished at 10 under after shooting a 4-under 67 on Sunday.
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Snedeker finished second, four strokes back after a 65.
"Sometimes you have to tip your hat and say, 'Phil played unbelievable and deserved to win,'" Snedeker said. "That's kind of what this week was all about."
Mickelson took a three-stroke lead to the 17th tee, and nearly drove into the left-side water on the drivable par 4, his ball stopping a yard short of the hazard. He flopped his second shot 15 feet past the hole and made the birdie putt.
Mickelson parred the par-4 18th after another drive to the left, one that easily cleared the water he hit into Friday en route to a double bogey, and Snedeker closed with a bogey.
Mickelson had his third wire-to-wire victory and first since the 2006 BellSouth Classic -- a 13-stroke blowout the week before the second of his three Masters victories. He pushed his victory total to 41, winning for the first time since 51 weeks ago at Pebble Beach -- where he will go for a record-tying fifth victory next weekend.
Making his 24th appearance in the event that he also won in 1996 and 2005, Mickelson tied the tournament scoring record set by Mark Calcavecchia in 2001, and joined Calcavecchia, Arnold Palmer and Gene Littler as the only three-time winners. With six victories in Arizona, Mickelson also matched Johnny Miller's tour record.
After three nearly cloudless days in the Valley of the Sun, the final round was played in overcast conditions. Light rain even fell for a few minutes as Mickelson finished warming up on the practice green and played the first hole.
After the rain stopped, Mickelson bogeyed the par-4 second and birdied the two front-nine par 3s, pulling off the sensational putt on No. 7.
Scott Piercy shot a 61 to finish third at 23 under.
"These greens were amazing," Piercy said. "If you got it online, rolling, you made it."


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Richard Childress Racing teammates finished second (Kevin Harvick), 20th (Brian Scott) and 35th (Austin Dillon). Scott is third in the Nationwide Series driver championship point standings, while Dillon is seventh.
Kevin Harvick and the No. 33 Hungry-Man Chevrolet team earned a second-place finish in the NASCAR Nationwide Series event Friday night under the lights of Richmond International Raceway.
The crew made an air pressure adjustment, changed four tires and added fuel during a scheduled yellow-flag pit stop on lap 102. As green-flag racing resumed, Harvick regained the top spot and went on to lead an additional 95 laps before falling to third.
During the closing laps, the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series regular worked his way into the second position, where he ultimately crossed the finish line.
Kevin Harvick (Start - 4 / Finish - 2 / Laps Led - 96 / Owner Points - 4th): "Our Hungry-Man Chevrolet was fairly good on the longer runs, but the No. 22 was really good on the short runs. All-in-all it was a fun night, and I enjoyed the back-and-forth racing. I always want to win, but this was an enjoyable race to be part of."
Tough finish to a strong run for Brian Scott at Richmond International Raceway
Brian Scott and the No. 2 Shore Lodge team settled for a 20th-place finish after being collected in a late-race incident in the NASCAR Nationwide Series race at Richmond International Raceway on Friday night.
The Boise, Idaho native took the green flag from the eighth position for the second night race of the 2013 season. On lap-11 Scott radioed to crew chief Phil Gould reporting he needed more rear grip.
The evening's first caution flew on lap 23, which allowed Scott to bring his No. 2 Camaro to the attention of his crew for four fresh tires, fuel and a chassis adjustment.
He restarted 20th and quickly made his way back inside the top-10 as the field set into a lengthy green-flag run. The No. 2 team continued to make their Shore Lodge machine stronger as the race wore on.
On lap 211, Scott was collected in a multi-car incident that caused right rear damage to the No. 2 machine. The 25-year old Nationwide Series competitor restarted 20th and continued to make gains back towards the front of the field until he was spun by another competitor late in the race, relegating him to a 20th-place-finish.
Brian Scott (Start 8 / Finish 20 / Laps Led 0, Points 3rd): "We had a good car, but not a great car. We continued to make adjustments throughout the race and we were probably going to get top-10 out of the evening.
We just needed a little bit more speed and continued trying to get it to roll through the corner. Unfortunately, myself and Austin (Dillon) got caught up in an incident with another competitor with about 50 laps to go.
After that, we just tried to limp home and salvage what finish we could. Some more things happened and it was an unfortunate night, instead of seventh or eighth we finished 20th. We have to move on. We're going to have days like this in the season. How you rebound is everything."
On-track incident relegates Austin Dillon to 35th-place fnish at Richmond International Raceway
Austin Dillon and the Danny Stockman-led No. 3 AdvoCare Chevrolet team earned a disappointing 35th-place finish in Friday evening's NASCAR Nationwide Series race at Richmond International Raceway after the Welcome, N.C. driver was collected in a multi-car incident on lap 212, of 250, ending the team's night early.
It marks Dillon's first DNF during his tenure of full-time Nationwide Series competition. Starting from the sixth position, the third-generation driver settled into the top-15 during the early and middle stages of the event, as he struggled with a loose-handling condition on his Chevrolet Camaro.
Persistent work on pit road by Stockman and the team allowed handling conditions to improve and Dillon worked his way into the top 10 with approximately 50 laps remaining in the race.
He was making a pass for the seventh position on lap 212 when the driver in the car on the outside of him cut across the nose of his car, causing a multi-car pile-up, and significant damage to the No. 3 Chevrolet that ended the team's night early. Dillon settled for a 35th-place finish and is now seventh in the driver championship point standings.
Austin Dillon (Start - 6 / Finish - 35 / Laps Led - 0 / Points - 7 th): "It was definitely a challenging evening for us, but it's alright because we are the No. 3 team and we are strong. We are coming and we will be in this championship point battle at the end of the season when it counts."


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Crucial v4 (256GB) Reviewby Kristian Vättö on 11/22/2012 1:01 PM EST
44 Comments
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beginner99 - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkor 1 TB version for cheap would be available this would make sense in a laptop. But at these small capacities and the performance, it is just not recommendable. I mean my intel G2 beats it in every aspect except write. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkYeah, pretty much my opinion, too. I've been looking to upgrade to a new SSD for a while. The Crucial v4 is sometimes cheaper, but not by much (10-20 € compared to decent SATA 6Gb/s drives), so that it isn't really worth it to me, even if all I have at the moment are SATA 3Gb/s controllers. :) Reply
Wolfpup - Thursday, December 13, 2012 - linkGlad I saw this review, I was expecting it to be so different from the M4. Personally I'd just go for an M4. Intel's 320 series is IMO one of the best drives on the market too, but it's just too expensive versus the M4. 520 is Sandforce...kinda bug fixed Sandforce but still.... Reply
WooDaddy - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkI'm somewhat speechless at how horrible the performance of this SSD is for a NEW product.
Kristian, IF you have the time, could you add the Velociraptor to the charts or just do a side-by-side comparison? There has to be some saving grace for this drive. I know you mentioned an order of magnitude better, but considering the rest of the field is 2x - 3x better in virtually every way, maybe it's still worth it over a traditional HDD. Maybe even a comparison against a hybrid drive like the Momentus XT as well. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - link600GB VelociRaptor is included in some graphs but not all since we haven't run all tests on the VelociRaptor (e.g. increasing QD doesn't affect performance, so there is no need for a separate QD32 random write test).
The best tool for comparison, as always, is our Bench: http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/669?vs=182 Reply
jordanclock - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkThe Bench tool is meant for just that kind of request. Reply
beginner99 - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkAs you can see that comparison just shows how crappy hdds actually are. Even this POS is easy 10x faster in random write and 100x in random read... Reply
hnzw rui - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkTheoretical benches, sure. However, on the AnandTech 2010 Storage Bench, the VelociRaptor didn't perform as badly compared to an X25-M as the random 4K performance numbers would imply. I think a couple of mechanical drives (e.g. VelociRaptor and a standard 7200RPM HDD) should be benchmarked using the 2011 AnandTech Storage Bench and added to the bench tool for use as reference. Reply
Bubon - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkI am dissapointed. Older m4 is still better than the newer v4. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkThe newer v4 isn't meant as a replacement. That comment is like saying "my GTX 580 is still faster than the newer GT 640, damn!".... Reply
mattdobs - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkSounds like Crucial needs to buy OCZ's Indilinx controller to make a wining drive. Reply
extide - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkUhhhh.... I don't think you get the point of this drive.... And they should definitely not buy an OCZ controller. Reply
Beenthere - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkAlmost no one could ever actually tell the performance difference between any SATA 2 vs. any SATA 3 SSD in actual use, unless you run the benches - which may be inaccurate as we see with compressible data and SandForce controllers. I suspect SSD makers have also learned how to inflate the numbers just as GPU makes have.
That being said there is a price point at which people will buy anything they perceive is of value. ~$100 for an ~128 GB. SSD is enough for many people to buy. Quite frankly only a small percentage of consumers acuti\ully need a large capacity SSD/HDD. Most folks can get buy with 60-128 GB. capacity but naive consumers have been programmed to believe they need a 500 GB. drive. Few people do but when you can buy a 500 GB. HDD for $100 many people take the bait. Reply
yyrkoon - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - link"Few people do but when you can buy a 500 GB. HDD for $100 many people take the bait."
How do you know what people need ? You don't.
At any rate. I'd say many people who feel they need a SSD for $100 are swallowing the bait. hook, line and sinker. Until prices drop significantly. There are many reasons why to opt for more storage versus performance. Very few productive applications take advantage of that much disk performance. Unless you will propose that running multiple SSD's in one large RAID array to play the latest greatest game is something most consumers do . . . Or sit and stare at how fast windows boots.
See, most people have a life that does not revolve around computers. Novel idea I know. Then when they do use a computer, they generally do not care if it takes a few extra seconds to load something from disk. But they *do* care if the disk they use wont hold their family pictures, videos, or audio collection.
Also, you can buy a good 1TB 2.5" HDD for less than $100 now days . . . Reply
Chaser - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkAnandtech consistently recommends not filling a SSD to capacity and leaving a portion of it unused for performance purposes. So for me I go with a 240GB SSD so that I don't have to "swap out" games. Yes I want higher performance in gaming with zone/instance loading etc.
I ALSO use a 500GB magnetic drive as my media drive for docs, pics, music, data in general.
So this is what I NEED and enjoy using. Reply
Zanegray - Friday, November 23, 2012 - link"Very few productive applications take advantage of that much disk performance. Unless you will propose that running multiple SSD's in one large RAID array to play the latest greatest game is something most consumers do . . . Or sit and stare at how fast windows boots."
Honest question, have you used an ssd before? Because your post sounds like you've never touched one. Boot times are not the reason I run an ssd. I run an ssd because nearly every application benefits - from app start up to saving a file to browsing the file system to caches (you must use an Internet browser). SSD's are the new client side storage paradigm and until you realize that you are stuck in the past. Reply
Beenthere - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkSSDs are an "immature technology" as Anand has stated. While they can offer improved performance over a HDD, they still have teething issues in many cases. Until all of the Bugs are resolved, a lot of people will wait to upgrade as the hassles aren't worth the modest performance gain, based on my testing. Reply
extide - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkSadly, you are doing it wrong if you are only getting a moderate performance increase. Terribly wrong :/ Reply
hp79 - Sunday, November 25, 2012 - linkI only have one comment for you. You must be stuck in 2007. Reply
erple2 - Sunday, November 25, 2012 - linkI think that you're right. The average consumer doesn't want the hassle of trying to remember where they put thing on which drive, plus have to manage the hassle of 2 drives. So until these are cheap at about 500 gigs (~$200), were stuck with the false promise of 120 gig ssd's.
I have a laptop with a 160gig ssd plus a 250gig spindle drive, and I gave up on the general hassle of remembering what goes where and where I put things. I had to go to the internet to figure out "esoteric" windows CLI utilities to move my user profile to the magnetic drive (how freaking hard, Redmond, is it to mimic 'ln -s source destination'?????? Why are files treated any different than directories?????). And I'd consider myself a much more patient (and advanced) user than ordinary consumers. I now just do the uninstall/reinstall swap instead.
I suppose that I mostly blame steam, but that's not fair for the finger pointing share. Reply
andrejg - Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - linkI thought the same until - I had two PC's of similar capacity with windows 8 side by side. One had Samsung SSD 830 256 and the other had Crucial v4 128.
Difference was noticable, from start/boot to installations and other operations. They are both very good comparing to HDD, but Samsung rocks and Crucial is only faster than HDD. Reply
supercoffee - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkI'm no expert, but I thought SSD read performance was generally always higher than write performance. If this is the case, then the average read and write speed charts on the Storage bench 2011 page are wrong and should be fixed. Thanks. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkWhen you read data, you have to fetch it from the actual NAND. When writing, you can first cache the data and write it to NAND at a later date (works well with small IOs as they can then be combined to increase throughput). Writing to a cache is extremely fast and hence write speeds are often higher.
Sequential read speed at bigger IO sizes is definitely higher, but most of the actual usage IOs are somewhat random and small in size. Big sequential IOs are easy to read because you get the benefit of multiple dies but the smaller the IO and queue depth, the less interleaving can be done. For example, 4KB random read at QD1 is often limited by NAND bandwidth because you can only read from one NAND die at the time, which isn't all that fast. Reply
iwod - Thursday, November 22, 2012 - linkI mean the majority of cost for SSD goes to the NAND, there is no point trying to save a dollar or two and offer such inferior product, Those who are going to spend $100 and buy comparatively expensive HDD replacement would not have cared about the $10 dollars difference if it offer something like 5x less performance.
Those who only owns a SATA 1 / 2 Port would have wanted a much faster SSD now for so they could get faster performance if they upgraded their MB.
So in reality this strange line of product is aiming squarely at those who have absolutely no clue about SSD performance or OEMs builders who could simply rip more off from customers.
The only niche i think this fits in are PATA, UATA port, where old computers could immensely benefits from SSD. Reply
kmmatney - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkWhat this review is sorely lacking is any sort of real-life experience with the drive. Does it still "feel" like an SSD in actual use? Does windows boot up fast? I'd buy a lower performing Crucial SSD over a faster OCZ drive, as long as itis "fast enough". Reply
toine_r - Saturday, November 24, 2012 - linkUnfortunately, I bought one (the 128Gb version) before this article has been published (17-11-2012).
I strongly suggest buying another "real" SSD, because this one is not fast enough for day to day use, even for replacing a HDD.
I replaced a 5400rpm HDD with it on a netbook running Ubuntu, and the SDD was slower than the HDD for some operations (typically, installing packages and applications took hours on the SSD).
Experience on windows may be better, but its probably safer to buy another one. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkI love Crucial's stuff and would easily recommend the m4 personally, but...
This has to be one of the worst products we've reviewed all year. I'm kind of in awe of how terrible it really is, the only way you could justify it compared to what else is available is to sell it at half the cost of any other SSD with comparable capacity. Reply
cjs150 - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkGreat response Dustin - I only which I had written it. Reply
KAlmquist - Saturday, November 24, 2012 - linkWith a metal case (instead of plastic) and synchronous NAND (instead of asynchronous) it's like Crucial wasn't even trying to hit a price point where an SSD with the Phison controller would make sense. Reply
Impulses - Wednesday, November 28, 2012 - linkAs brutal as the review was, it was still too kind! The first budget SSD that one of the major players put out (Intel's X25-V) still manages random read/write performance that's about 3x faster! Granted that drive had abysmal sequential writes (as bad as a bad 5,400 drive), but it'd still make a better OS drive (provided you could live with 40GB!). Reply
Lone Ranger - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkOn page two, you state that you are surprised to only find 8 packages on the board despite finding room for 16. In the next paragraph you state that the controller supports 8 channels. Is it possible to "gang" two packages together to one controller channel? If not, the controller is the reason that 16 packages aren't used. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkThe controller supports up to 32 NAND packages (i.e. 4 per channel). Pretty much all consumer-grade controllers have eight channels but support more than one package per channel Reply
Lone Ranger - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkThanks for the clarification. Reply
creed3020 - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkI stopped reading at Phison PS3105...
Most people who know SSDs understand their controllers are useless even in a low end product. Reply
Pessimism - Friday, November 23, 2012 - linkPhison is the new JMicron. Reply
tjoynt - Saturday, November 24, 2012 - linkWe spend so much time looking at the upper range of prrformance, it's nice to get a lower bound, too. :)
It also demonstrates just how important a good controller is and how hard it is to make one. Also gives me a better idea of why usb flash drives and most devices with flash have so much lower performance than SSDs. Any one know what the cost differential is between a Psion and a Sandforce or Indilinx or Samsung? Reply
infoilrator - Saturday, November 24, 2012 - linkThe article implied about $10 more buys a better controller. I do not know where firmware vs hardware may make a difference.
Crucual will sell these on the basis of its M4 reputation. Unfortunately I believe it will leave a large number of customers unset with crucial.
I do not want one at any price (hey, i found way better prices.
Would RAID0 help these any? Reply
jack.fxx - Monday, November 26, 2012 - linkWell, even though benchmark results of V4 are considerably lower than other contemporary SSDs, it still is decent SSD. For example Windows boot time of V4 is the same as any other SSD (see http://www.legitreviews.com/article/2010/6/ ) , average user won't notice any difference between Samsung 840 Pro and V4.
Benchmark results are pretty much useless when comparing desktop SSDs, because SSD drives in desktops/laptops are at least 99% of time idle, which means that 2x faster SSD will improve performace of your system at most by 0.5%. Reply
crimson117 - Monday, November 26, 2012 - linkCasual users have gotten used to having 500GB, or 1TB of hard drive space, but few will use more than a small fraction of that capacity.
A $99 128GB drive is perfect for most users and they don't realize what they're missing! Reply
JonnyDough - Monday, November 26, 2012 - linkAt its current price, the Crucial V4 is not a good deal. However, Crucial is one of the few PC component manufacturers based in the USA (they employ American's as well) so when it comes to purchases for SSDs and RAM I often go with them or Kingston. Reply
andrejg - Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - linkFor my HP635 notebook with AMD E450 chipset/platform. It turned out, that it is incompatible with notebook. Tried all kinds of tricks, from FW updates/upgrades... SSD just sometimes , not allways, didn't work properly at boot, showing boot sector problems and errors. The same SSD works very good in a desktop. Anyway, it is priced too high to be worth considering, since you can get Intel 330 or Samsung 830 for couple of euros more, but with much much higher speeds and with latest SATA speed.
Oh, and before giving up I really spent many days in front of google, forums, support pages from HP and Crucial etc. What is funny is, that this very HP635 is stated as supportedfor a v4 128 on a Crucial web site... Reply
jack.fxx - Tuesday, November 27, 2012 - linkThe SSD you bought is probably faulty and you should ask for replacement. Even if it's not faulty, it still doesn't work as specified. Reply
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legalsuit - Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - linkSo I bought a Crucial v4 128gb to use in my PC laptop. It was slower than the hdd, so I moved it to a desktop... still too slow... then finally as a last ditch effort, I threw into an old 2006 Mac Book Pro (A1150). Wow, it worked perfectly.
Just goes to show. Old tech and old tech make a happy marriage. And don't get this if you have anything newer, just won't work right. Reply


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Advantages of Using Petsafe
Advantages of Using Petsafe
Pets are everywhere and they are one of the best companions that people want to have. Pet owners will always want to give the best for their pets, whether it is a dog or cat, for both deserve to be well taken care of. In the world today, accidents can happen unexpectedly to pets. That's why it is important to consider their safety and security. With regard to this, there are now lots of options available that pet owners can choose from, depending on the specific needs and requirements that they have. With the Oetsafe products available in the market today, owners can have everything that they need for giving maximum protection to their pets.
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Petsafe Wireless fence
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Purchasing the wireless fence is much affordable, not to mention that it is easy to use. Upon purchasing the said product, there is a collar included to which the receiver is being attached. An instruction is also available that can be easily followed. The fence can be found in two types – the wireless ones and those that come with wires to be buried underground. The wireless type is good for areas that are small while the other is applicable for larger areas. Both provide the same function in giving the best service to pet owners. Considering which type of fence is going to be used is necessary in making it more effective. `
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Hence, it is important to evaluate first the possible advantages and disadvantages of electric dog fence amazon before planning to use this on your dog. Here are some of the advantages you can get from dog fencing:
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Despite of those good things that fencing can do to your dog, there can be have disadvantages and the following are some of those:
- It might lead your dog to be wilder.
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- They can have fear for other people.
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There are possibilities that those pros and cons of dog fences will occur to your dog, but it is a matter of weighing which will be more beneficial to your dog. As owner, you will definitely like your dog to be in danger, therefore, it is your responsibility on how will you identify the more efficient dog fence wire gauge which will not bring harm to your dog.
In most cases, it is always needed to be a wise decision maker. If your dog happened to be one of those street dogs it is most likely to happen that your dog will have adjustment when you apply any if the methods in dog fencing. Consequently, as the one who understands than your dog, it is your obligation to train your dog to easily adapt the changes. Before, choosing the best wireless pet fence try to assess first everything. It is not only your dog's job to guard you but rather yours.


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There are 32 beautiful and unique colors available; colors are consistent and won't vary from slab to slab.
Color: Giallo Antico
Style: Double Toggle
One cover plate per package.
Please Note: There is an approximate lead time of 2-3 weeks.
Ordering Information:
Because stone is created by nature, there are literally thousands of
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AMD's Radeon HD 5670: Sub-$100 DirectX 11 Starts Todayby Ryan Smith on 1/14/2010 12:00 AM EST
- Posted in
- GPUs
73 Comments
Back to Article
JonnyDough - Sunday, January 17, 2010 - linkIt's always good to see new cards rolling off the line that don't require me to open another coal-powered power plant in my town. Reply
PR3ACH3R - Monday, January 25, 2010 - linkThe current situation with Anandtech ATI reports & coverage is absolutely absurd, & so disappointing,
I do not even know where to start.
It seems like nothing is done by pros anymore at Anandtech.
From the endless 57XX Driver bugs, To the flaky incomplete & undocumented DXVA features,
To the High DPC usage in anything not 3d/dxva
all the way to the poorest 2d performance ever seen on the pc (this is not an exaggerated comment), NOTHING is discovered by Anadtech.
You have become a commercial, biased, & unprofessional, overrated site.
So there, I have done the work for you,
go check these issues & let's see when you will get the staff professional enough to analyze or even notice all the above. Reply
529th - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkAccording to benchmark reviews the 4670 idles at 9w - the way they come to this conclusion is they boot the pc without the vid card and run the psu cord through a Kill-A-Watt EZ P4460 wall socket mount that reads the wattage draw, take that number for system idle power and then run it against the system at idle with the card for a base number, then they run it through some 3D titles for total draw.. Reply
7Enigma - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkThere is no marketing or business decision to continue producing the 4850. It's more expensive to make than the reviewed card, and it's making the new cards look like crap. I personally believe the Far Cry 2 data is not correct (it makes no sense), but in everything else the 4850 is significantly faster.
I'm actually surprised AMD would be stupid enough to continue producing (not just selling out of existing stock) the 4850...they are shooting themselves in the foot and making their "new" product lineup underwhelming.
Hint, hint, if you are in the market for a card in this price range and don't care about power requirements or small size (ie HTPC), get the 4850 NOW. I can't imagine it will be around next month unless AMD is completely clueless (which I believe they are not). Reply
peakchua - Friday, May 07, 2010 - linkhey im a noob on GPU'S :) is the 4850 better than the 5670? I own an imac :) with a mobility 4850, if apple upgraded to a mobilit 5750, would it be considerably faster? I tried asking apple but as usual they never reply :) Reply
JimmiG - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkIt seems not a single card in the 5-series bring you more performance at a particular price point. There's always a card from the 4-series that beats the 5-series and costs less. Why this trade off between performance and features? It's either a slower card with more features or a faster card with less features...
This is completely unlike the 4-series, which revolutionized performance at every price point.
Guess things will change in, oh, about a year, when Fermi-derived cards are out at all price points... Reply
marc1000 - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkIf we can expect the same "downsizing" that Nvidia did for the GT200, then there will be low-end Fermi's only in 2013.... Reply
rjc - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkOn th first page of the article it said launch volume would be around 50k units and that is expected to be sufficient.
Is that figure for US only? if it's the whole world, it works out about 1 card each for all the retail stores that sell graphic cards. Even with the price set high as it is would think a much greater supply is needed.
From here: http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/details/reboun...">http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/det...-for-the...
The market for grphics cards is about 20m units per quarter...this card is supposed to be in the mainstream segment would think it would sell in the millions.
ChoadNamath - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkHow is the load power 63W higher than idle when the TDP is supposed to be only 61W? It sounds like something is funky with your review sample, or AMD's numbers are just wrong. Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, February 03, 2010 - linkHey choad, let's bash AnandTech/AMD on the basis of your ignorance! YEA~!~! It's better to just ask why it's 63w than to assume. Reply
Spoelie - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkBecause the GPU can never truly be isolated, the CPU/memory/buses need to perform some work too to keep the GPU fed with data and instructions to process. Reply
Slaimus - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkIt is not too long ago that the Geforce 6200 debuted at $150. Low end gaming cards are slowly pickup up prices again. Reply
dagamer34 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkWhen do the low profile 5650/5670 cards come out? I've been waiting one for my HTPC to bitstream Blu-ray HD codecs. Reply
SmCaudata - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkUnless you already have an HTPC why would anyone get this card. If building a new HTPC you could get a Clarkdale to bitstream the audio-codecs.
Also...why do we care if it is bitstreamed? I have a reciever that can decode this but it doesn't matter if the digital information is converted to PCM before or after the HDMI cable. The only advantage is to see those lights on the front of my reciever... Reply
papapapapapapapababy - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkfuture what? dx11 at 5fps? no thanks ati, remember the 4770? that was a good sub $100 card, (thanks) this crap is overpriced, $45 or bust.
TheManY2K3 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkRyan,
I don't see any of the applications at 12x10 include data for the 8800GT, however, you are comparing the 8800GT to the HD5670 in most applications.
Could you include the 8800GT in the 12x10 data, so that we can accurately gauge the performance of the HD5670? Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkThe 8800 GT data was originally collected for past articles, where we started at 16x10. The 8800 GT isn't part of my collection (it's Anand's) so I wasn't able to get 12x10 data in time for this article. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkIt's probably fair to point out that, in most tests, the 5670 is very close to the 8800, and as such listing it may not mean anything. However, the 1280x1024 tests are also without AA - it might be nice to see the effect of turning AA on with this oldie but goodie as compared to the more modern competition, so including it may make sense. You may think that the higher core clock of the 5670 would give it an advantage without AA but if it goes anything like Batman, this would probably be an incorrect assumption as well. Reply
pjladyfox - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkLast I looked ANY Radeon card with the x5xx, x6xx, or x7xx model number was denoted as a mainstream card which is clearly noted here:
By that definition that means that these cards were designed to run in systems that have power supplies from 350 to 400w, support HD quality video, and support games at a resolution of no higher than 1440x900 at medium quality settings with 2x AA and 8x anisotropic filtering. By putting them at settings that most will not run these cards at it makes these results for the most part worthless.
I mean who cares how these cards run at 1920x1200 at high detail settings since we already know they're going to fail anyway? I'm more interested in how these run with all the details on at say 1440x900 or possibly 1680x1050 which are the more common widescreen monitors most people have.
For that matter where are details about how these cards compare running HD quality video, if the fan speed can be controlled via speedfan, or even if they have fixed some of the video quality issues like black crush when outputting via HDMI?
Ryan Smith - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkWe traditionally run every game at 3 resolutions, particularly since some games are more GPU-intensive than others. Based on the 12x10 performance, I decided that 10x7 would be silly and instead went up a level to 19x12 - a few games were actually playable even at those high resolutions.
16x10 is accounted for, and 12x10 is close enough to 14x9 that the results are practically the same.
HD Video: All the 5000 series cards, except perhaps the Cedar are going to be exactly the same.
Fan speed: Can be modified (I use it to cool down the cards before extraction after running FurMark)
Black Crush: I honestly have no idea Reply
ereavis - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkHybrid Crossfire review please! This generation is supposed to support it (according to the IGP review) Reply
ZipSpeed - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkLooks like a worthy replacement for my 4670 in my HTPC. Looks like it will still have some issues with certain games at 1080p but since I play mostly Source games on my HTPC, it should stabilize some frame rate problems I get with my 4670. Reply
DigitalFreak - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkNot showing up on Newegg yet... Reply
BelardA - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkUh... Newegg has 7 5670s to choose from for $100 (512mb) to $120 (1GB). You posted your response 4 hours ago.
Stupid to spend $120 for such a card. $125 (after rebate) ~ $140 gets the easily faster 5750.
DigitalFreak - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - link... and at the time there weren't any 5670s on Newegg. Reply
BelardA - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkOh, I know. Thats why I said it was "4 hours" after your posting. it wasn't a slam... Just showing how much things can change in a few hours. :0
Sureshot324 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkWow, modern high end cards are around 3 times as fast as my 8800gt, yet I can still play pretty much any game at max settings at 1680x1050. Reply
DigitalFreak - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkYou can thank consoles for that. They're the least common denominator now, and a big reason why game graphics aren't moving forward as fast as they used to. Reply
hadphild - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkCan anyone confirm being able to run a 6 screen configuration with 2 x 5XXX cards yet.
If it ran with 2 x 5670 cards then I would be happy. (I am not running Crysis with this config) But wanting to run a custom opengl app.
Spoelie - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkeyefinity while crossfired is not supported as of yet. Reply
krumme - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkKO 1 round Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkWhere is the 4770 and 9800GT??? A lot of the the data makes me skeptical because it doesnt mesh with what I'm seeing on other sites. I'm more inclined to trust the other reviews because they used common sense and compared this card to more cards in its own price range. Common sense is your friend. Notice how close the 5670 and 5750 are in terms of load power. That dont make sense at all. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkThe 9800 GT is the same as an 8800 GT. As for the 4770 it's here too, although I don't have any 19x12 data for it since that resolution was a last-minute decision (I only had 30 hours or so with the 5670). Reply
ereavis - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkCommon sense dictates that if a 4770 performs like a 4850 clone in most cases, leave it out for saturation purposes. Same case for the 9800GT, GTS 250 is a rebranded 9800GT, near identical performance.
Price point? 9800GT and 4770 are next-to-unavailable, so what price should be used on something that can't be bought (in the near future when 5670 is all that's left on ATI side and GT 250 for nVidia but this review is still sitting on this site).
How can a power meters measured numbers "not make sense"? A much better performing 5750 at near 5670 power usage just means inefficiency at 5670 performance, which is common for lower performance parts on similar fab.
Explanation of the above would be a bonus, but hardly required, great review. Reply
daytrader7 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - link4850's for 99 bucks a pair?
Methinks not. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkNo I think he meant that he'd seen a couple of instances where a 4850 was priced as low as $99, not that it costs $99 to have two of them.
If it only cost that, hell I'd import two myself. Reply
daytrader7 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkAhh...
2 different 4850's available @ 99.00 each.
Misinterpretation on my part.
Zool - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkAlso want to note that without real nvidia cards for amd it seems enough just to beat the weak nvidia setup and thats all.
Eyfinity is just plain stupid on these level of cards for games. Real DX11 games on these performance levels is questionable at least too.
Both 5700 and 5600 are VERY weak for the price they sell. I wouldnt recomend them to anyone if they own a 4800 or 4600 series card, just in case they need a new card in a new machine.
The feature set with new generation of cards, including audio bitstreaming should be a MUST and not a priced upgrade put in the cards cost. Iam quite dissapointed form the amd-s 5600 and 5700 series cards. The only real new cards are the radeon 5800-s. Reply
MadMan007 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkI agree with Zool. The 5800s are the only true advancement among this 5000 series. They actually improved performance and price/performance (well, until pricing got out of hand because of supply) over their equivalent lineup predecessors and against their competition from NV. The 5700s and apparently 5600s are just spinning wheels performance-wise: they are feature upgrades not performance upgrades. That makes them mildly disappointing and not an easy purchase decision. Reply
marc1000 - Friday, January 15, 2010 - linkI had a 3850. Buying a 5770 was a fairly easy decision to me. I wanted the 5850 in fact, but to buy this one I would need to change my PSU too and that would be too expensive. So the 5770 it was! And I'm pretty glad with the performance. Remember that not everyone has the latest board from previus generation. ATI/AMD is doing a great job. Reply
Calin - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkThese lower end series are not intended to run high resolution monitors in "heavy" games at performance modes. For that, there is the 5800 series.
These 5600 series seems ok for every game in 19" resolutions and lowered quality, which make them perfect for many people. They are a huge step up from integrated graphics :) Reply
BelardA - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkHow many people actually buy 19" displays anymore? Wide screen isn't like the older 4:3 screens, so a 19" LCD is kind of small.
At $125~150, there isn't much reason to NOT get a 20~21" class monitor.
While the 5600s are a bit on the slow side, there is a NEED to have low-end graphics cards that meets some standards and having an entire product line support DX11 is still a good thing.
Once the price of the 5670 gets down to $75 then it will be a good value card. But not at $100~120 which is the current price on Newegg. And remember, many people don't have the PSUs (or budget) to get support a 5700 series card. I think once 40nm manufacturing matures for TMSC (sp?), the pricing will go down more.
As an owner of a 4670, the 5670 is easily a faster card... but I believe AMD screwed up. The $100 4770 was almost on par with the 4850 and easily faster than the 4830. There is NO reason the smaller die 5670 to be ANY slower than the 4770. That is ALL the 5670 needed to be. But then again, the $135 (today) 5750 is starting to be constantly faster than the 4850 card (good).
SO the real problem is pricing. If the $100 5670 was almost as fast as the $135 5750, there would be no need for the 5750. Also, other than PSU requirements - it would be stupid to spend $120 for a 1GB 5670 when the 5750 is $15 more and almost twice the performance.
Zool - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - link"They are a huge step up from integrated graphics :)"
Price wise the 5670 is a huge step too from integrated graphic. I was mainly comparing the 5xxx and 4xxx series and thats almost a zero jump. Reply
Zool - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkBut of course why should AMD compete with itself when it still beat everything that nvidia has in price.
I think i will skip this generation too and wait for the 6K cards. Reply
Zool - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkThe 5700 cards are on the same level than 4800 cards and the 5600 cards are very close to 4600 cards. Now if u enable DX11 in games u will se performance way below both 4800 and 4600 for both dx11 cards against they counterpart. Thats downgrading not upgrading.
And the X700 vs X800 series trick and price range change is quite disturbing too. Reply
Zool - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkHow can game developers make better looking games when the performance/price sits on the same level with each generation ? DX11 is very taxing if u want to make it properly. Those fancy new efects, postprocessing with Dx compute just eats much more shader power,bandwith. Performance wise 4800 owners can upgrade only to 5800 cards (dx11 speeds with 5700 is very weak) which price level is another category.
But that can happen if your only competition is rebranding a 2006 card architecture because the GT200 was overdesigned. The disturbing part of this is that nvidia cant learn from its mistakes and make another giant chip second time GT300 which is this time even late :). Reply
Zool - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkIts quite strange that they downgraded the 5670 TMUs from 32 to 20. With the 60+ GB/s the 32 TMUs could be much more usefull than with the 4670 bandwith. All games use multitexturing to some degree quite some time. Reply
Spoelie - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkFar Cry 2: the text states that the 5670 and the 4850 have the same amount of memory and that the 5670 beats the 4850.
However, looking at the test setup, the 5670 is the 1GB version and the 4850 is the 512MB version, and the test results support this. The gap between the 4850 and the 4870 is *way* too big to not be memory size constraint.
As such, the only reason the 5670 "beats" the 4850 in this test is the memory size, and the supporting text is wrong. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkThe 5670 is 512MB.
The facts have been corrected to fit with reality. Reply
Spoelie - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkhmmm ok, then the Far Cry 2 results are a bit peculiar. The 4850 has the same amount of memory but more of everything else and is 25% slower. The performance of the 5670 seems to fall in line with its compute resources, as if it doesn't have a memory bottleneck. This made me think you had a 1GB card. My apologies. Reply
Spoelie - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkAlso, the conclusion that the radeon really pulls away from the other value cards at higher resolutions (hawx) might be an artifact of the differing memory sizes.
(need edit button!) Reply
kmmatney - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkI bought a $99 HD4830 more than a year ago, and it much faster than this, especially when overclocked (as it had lot of OC headroom, and performs a little faster than an HD4850). Sad that the same amount of money a year later gets you a slower card. Reply
Griswold - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkYou 4830 is a partial defective 4850, thats what made it nice value until the 4770 arrived (despite low availablility then). You have to wait for the already rumored 5830 to get the same feeling again... Reply
BelardA - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkWhat made the 4670 an exciting card well over a year ago was that it was under $100 when it was launched ($80 avg) and it was almost as fast as the 3870, sometimes faster (as drivers matured). So when looking at some of these benchmarks that DON'T have the 4670, just look at the 3870 and count it the same. So at $80, it had replaced the $200~150 3870 and ran cooler, etc.
Anyway, the 5670 SHOULD have at least equaled the 4770 in performance! That would make the 5670 a very good value gaming card for the $90~100 price range. You can get 4770s for about $95~110 (until gone).
Hopefully in the coming months, the prices will start to get lower
naturally. But AMD should have a $100 card that *IS* equal to the 4850. Perhaps that would be a 5730 card, but its power should still be under 75watts under load.
Until Nvidia comes out with something competitive, AMD has little reason to load the prices... ha, notice how things have changed? :)
Ideal pricing by March/April.
5870 = $350 (Today = $400~440)
5850 = $225 (Today = $300~340)
5830 = $175 * hey, there was a 4380, why not?
5770 = $125 (Today = $155~200 for 1GB)
5750 = $110 (Today = $135~150 for 1GB)
5730 = $ 95 * hey, there was a 4380, why not?
5670 = $ 75 * Its cheaper to make than a 4670.
5650 = $ 60
5550 = $ 55 * Cause 555 looks cool.
5450 = $ 40
5350 = $ 30 * Office PCs that need DVI... 4350s are $25.
With such a line up, the entire 4000 series can go. There are still 3600s and 24/2600s on the market, usually lo-profile or AGP.
In the meantime, Nvidia will still be selling 9600 / 9800 / GT1xx / G/gt 2xx for another 1-3 years... ugh.
BelardA - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkOOPS! I typoed
I meant to say "4830", not "4380".... doh!
Drazick - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkWhat About Some Open CL / Direct Compute tests?
No games, just pure calculations?
Thanks. Reply
haplo602 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkhmm seems this card is a bit short of my needs ... a performance level around hd4770 would be great. Reply
Obsy - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkIdle and Load Power charts say "NVIDIA GeForce 4870 X2" ;) Reply
MadMan007 - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkNice thorough review. I'd be interested in some more results with lesser or no AA as well though. While we all love AA it's kind of silly to expect to run it well at 1920x1200 or sometimes even 1680x1050 on <$100 cards. Plus it would give those who keep cards for a long time and just turn down features such as AA a better comparison. Reply
ET - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkWhile I already replaced my 3870 with a 5750, it's nice to see a sub-$100 card that beats it in all cases. I'm glad ATI went with 128bit GDDR 5 for this card. Reply
Slaimus - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkAnother nice thing about it is that it makes an inexpensive triple-head card that does not need external power, even if one of the heads needs to be Displayport. Even a single link HDMI/DVI can still support 1920x1200. Reply
SlyNine - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkIs the 4670 you have in your comparison charts a 4670 with DDR3 or DDR2?
Also any news on the mobile version of this card or the 5380 I've seen in alot of notbooks? Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkGDDR3.
And I don't have any news on the mobile 5000 series. Nor is there a 5830 that I have been informed of. Reply
Blahman - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - link5830 is in the HP Envy 15. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkIf it's in a laptop, then it's going to be a neutered Juniper. The Mobility series is always a part down, so a Mobility 5800 series part would be Juniper based. Reply
SlyNine - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkI'm sure I seen it in 2, including the Envy15, Perhaps I shouldn't have said "alot".
But it would be good to have a review comparing the mobile solutions out there. Not to mention the throttling problems in some notebooks.
I'd love to see Anandtech do a review of the problems the Dell XPS 16 w/ Core I7 has. On A/C and only on A/C it cuts the multiplier to 7 and then uses a clock modulation. Clock modulation tells the cpu to only do work certain cycles, so you can have as many as 75% of your CPU cycles going to waste.
The end result is a Dell 1645 Core I7 running at the equivalent of 300mhz.
more info at this forum : http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=4...">http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=4...
Full story here, and just for the record, Id be willing to let Anandtech borrow my 1645 to test if Dell doesn't fix it with this next BIOS update, which I don't see how they can 90watt AC is simply not enough. Reply
WT - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkI read through that thread yesterday. We support 50+ Dell e6500 laptops that have been problematic in other ways besides throttling, but it was nevertheless interesting to read and pass along to my fellow IT co-workers. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkI've looked at the thread and sent Dell an email asking for comment. It's important to remember power supply (power brick in this case) efficiency, so if the brick can output 90W and it's only 75% efficient (which is probably higher than what it really achieves), power draw at the wall of up to 120W might be achievable without the need to throttle. So, it's possible that a BIOS update will indeed address the problem, but let's not jump to any conclusions just yet....
I'd also say that if you're using FurMark to achieve the throttling, find something else instead. FurMark really pushes the envelope and many consider it a power virus. I understand others are saying it occurs with regular games, which is obviously a much bigger issue than with a test program that doesn't represent a real-world workload.
Anyway, if you really want to send us the laptop for testing, why not do the testing yourself and use that as the basis for an audition to AnandTech? If you go that route, I would make sure you really investigate when throttling does and doesn't occur, look at the various power profiles and try tweaking those, etc.
As a side note: with Win7 I noticed on at least one laptop that using the "passive" cooling profile caused video playback to stutter, and setting it to "active" fixed the problem. There are so many variables that you can never know 100% what might be causing a particular problem. Reply
SlyNine - Sunday, January 17, 2010 - linkJarred thanks, I'm going to take you up on that and currently I'm doing a write up on the XPS 1645 w/ RGB. I would love any suggestions or if you would like me to include anything please send them to firstname.lastname@example.com with the subject: XPS 1645. If anyone knows any tools other then throttle stop to monitor the CPU modulation that would also be helpful. Reply
SlyNine - Thursday, January 14, 2010 - linkYea I don't use FurMark at all, in fact I made a post recommending them not use it.
With just UT3 nothing else going on the multiplier hits as low as 7 and with the brightness up halfway the modulation kicks in bringing the CPU down to 25%, that's only 25 cycles out of every 100 that's willing to do anything. Even just doing a Prime 95 run the multi is below 10, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it supposed to be around 13?
But thanks a TON Jarred for acknowledging this, If a high profile sit like Anandtech did a story on it I'd imagen that dell would have to respond. Really this is an Amazing laptop otherwise (other then this line I have threw my screen but obviously that is covered by warranty.) Reply
JarredWalton - Sunday, January 17, 2010 - linkAs far as CPU multiplier, if you have the i7-720QM the normal multiplier is 12X (133 bus * 12 = 1.6GHz). For the i7-820QM the stock multiplier is 13 (1.73GHz). Maximum Turbo mode on the 720QM is 2.80GHz, so you could potentially see a 21X multiplier, while on the 820QM the maximum Turbo is 3.066GHz so you'd see up to a 23X multiplier. I don't know if throttle stop tells you max and min multipliers or not, but you could even run CPU-Z and just watch to see if the multiplier is changing a lot. Reply
SlyNine - Tuesday, January 19, 2010 - linkYea I have been watching a few programs including throttle stop, Realtemp and Realtemp GT, including I7 turbo. They all show the max multiplier at 7-9 when gaming under load, even with an external monitor hooked up and this screen off it doesn't go past 10. Its worth noting that with the screen brightness turned down and CPU load only they stay at 12, but turn the brightness up and your multi falls to 8.
The biggest problem is the clock modulation, which I'm trying to test. But it definitely correlates with real world performance, while task manager may show the CPU at 100%, throttle stop reports a 75% reduction in CPU usage. This also correlates with the delta that taskmanager indicates CPU usage at and what programs like I7turbo and real temp show the C0 state percent. Task manager will show 100% while the C0% will be at 25%, indicating a 75% reduction while under load.
Perhaps throttle stop just measures the difference between the CO% and what the OS reports.
I've custom set all the settings in the advanced power options to be the same on and off battery. When you unplug the system runs a great deal faster, albeit at the risk of harming the battery. I've disabled speed step as well with no difference.
Excel isn't my strong suit(basically I'm going to have to relearn how to use it) but I'm trying to correlate frame rate with the indicated clock modulation. But I'm unsure how to record a timeline of FPS. It does appear though that the FPS do report accurately when the clock modulation kicks in. Reply
satish2685 - Monday, April 01, 2013 - linkHi, I would like to purchase an Entry level 1GB DDR3 Asus Geforce HD5450 Graphics Card, but considering the power requirements, i only have an 250W PSU. Is it ok to buy a graphic card that requires a minimum of 400w and connect it to my existing MB or do i need to upgrade my PSU?? Advice required. If so any consequences i could face in future ?? Reply


text:
- Subject:
- Bow Front Writing Desk with Bob Van Dyke & Tim Spratlin
- When:
- 03/17/09 - 06/30/09
- Where:
- Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking - Manchester
- Category:
- Class
(Tuesday evenings from 6pm to 9:30pm) This intermediate level class will encourage students to go beyond the "straight and square". Techniques used for creating curves, designing angled joinery and making handcut dovetailed drawers will be explored in this innovative class. The desk will incorporate a curved-front drawer, tapered legs, glue laminated curved aprons and walnut cockbeading around the drawer. This project incorporates challenging woodworking problems such as cutting the tenons on the end of a curved piece, fitting the drawer to the exact drawer opening, flattening the 22 inch wide top (by hand) and more. We solve these problems in a simple and unique way which you will be able to apply to other projects in the future. Some hand work at home will be expected. Woodworking 1 & II are required prerequisites. Don't wait too long to sign up for this class as space is limited. Some work at home will be required. Tuition: $695.00.00 plus materials
- Venue:
- Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking - Website
- Street:
- 249 Spencer St.
- City:
- Manchester
- State:
- Country:
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