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Nokia Lumia 800 Review - Nokia's Brave New Foray into WP7by Brian Klug on 1/4/2012 7:00 AM EST
- Posted in
- Nokia
- Smartphones
- windows phone 7
- Mobile
- Lumia
- Lumia 800
120 Comments
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AnnihilatorX - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI like how the debug mode battery status reads
Binary-decimal system for the geeks :) Reply
deputc26 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linknexus Reply
ct760ster - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - link16-bit depth of charge. That's why I strive for True-charge B-) Reply
piroroadkill - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkHonestly, the N9 is nicer, being almost the same but with a cleaner front (no windows buttons) and an interesting OS as opposed to WP7.
Still, it's a dead end. But a pretty dead end. Reply
Freddo - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkYep, I'm very interested in the N9 myself. Still haven't bought it yet though, it's been 5+ years since I had a mobile phone without ScummVM and I'm not going back to that now. So someone need to port ScummVM for it first. Reply
inplainview - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI have an N9 and it is a nice device. I use it as a backup to my iPhone and it is quite worth. A bit quirky but still a nice phone. I like it MUCH better than the Android copy devices floating around. Reply
sprockkets - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkOnly seen one briefly in person. Would have bought it too instead of android were it not for Nokia abandoning the platform.
What a way to treat your community Nokia! Reply
bplewis24 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkKeep telling yourself that. I hope it helps you sleep better at night or something. Reply
zwer - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkScummVM was ported within two months for its predecessor, the N900, and is officially supported by the ScummVM community. Given the virtually identical (considering the ScummVM requirements) architecture from both the software and hardware point of view between Maemo 5 and Maemo 6 / MeeGo Harmattan, I'm quite sure someone will rebuild it for the N9 as well, quite soon.
'til then, when it comes to emulators/VMs, the EmuMaster pretty much covers the rest - NES, SNES, GB(A), PSX and Amiga (UAE). Reply
kishorshack - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI expect Nokia and Intel partnership to continue
But this Nokia CEO stephen elop ruined everything for Nokia
First He went against what consumers wanted & went with WP7 instead of android
He killed Meego and stopped Meego devices
N9 was overly priced and Made available in very few countries
Every single thing was done
Sad :( Reply
crispbp04 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkSteve Jobs already proved that consumers are idiots. the minority of consumers want android. The majority want something that works, is pretty, and is fun to use. This is the definition of Windows Phone 7. Elop is saving Nokia by betting the farm on Microsoft. Who cares if he has to alienate blind android fanboys such as yourself. Reply
steven75 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkThe majority of users also want wide access to the software everyone else has, and WP7 still fails hard on this. Reply
crispbp04 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkcite a specific example of a piece of software you use on android or iOS that isn't on the WP7 marketplace. Reply
Thermogenic - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkPayPal app. The mobile website is not nearly as nice as the iPhone or Android apps. Reply
doobydoo - Saturday, January 07, 2012 - linkSky Sports app. Only available on iPhone / iPad. Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI have all 3 phone OS's in my home. My wife uses the Android and she hates it, as do I. (She started with WP7 and switched because she didn't like it either, but wishes she had it back now.) I'm using the WP7, but it was a hard decision to leave iOS, mainly because of the superior map app. But the WP7's audio and video quality is far superior to iOS. You're too restricted on the .264 profile allowed on iOS for whatever reason.
Other than that, as far as software selection available, everyone can find anything they need on all 3 devices. The software selection on WP7 is already robust, and it's only the beginning.
Imagine when x86 hardware meets Windows Phone. I can't wait... Reply
Mitch89 - Friday, January 06, 2012 - linkWhen you say audio and video quality are you referring to playback? You can easily use apps like AV Player to playback different formats. High def h.264 looks great on the iPhone 4S in AV Player, not to mention it supports a variety of other formats. Reply
sprockkets - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkYeah, that's why Android has the lion's share of the market, cause "nobody" wants it.
Right. Reply
Nfarce - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkExactly, sprockkets. Let these people talk themselves into whatever they want. It's a free market. And nothing makes me laugh better than an Apple or Winphone fangirl calling Droid users fanbois. LMAO. Not only are Droid phones at the top of the sales charts, they are at the top of the performance charts overall (as this article shows). Just let them lie themselves to sleep at night and move on. Reply
doobydoo - Saturday, January 07, 2012 - linkThe iPhone 4S is at the top of the pile as far as performance goes. That is reality.
Secondly - you both miss the point. People tend to only buy Android over iPhone because it's cheaper. If they were both the same price, you could bet that Android would not be the biggest. Of course, Apple has found the sweet spot in pricing so wouldn't want to change.
Thirdly - Android is only bigger because there are more handsets available, from numerous manufacturers, so no one company actually benefits as much as Apple does. Similarly, no one handset is as popular or in demand as the iPhone 4S right now.
Finally - there are so so many VERY cheap and totally incomparable and retro phones which run old and rubbish hardware with old and rubbish versions of Android which bolster the statistics and provide a false impression. Reply
doubledeej - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkBut Android customer satisfaction is horrible. Consumers might think they want it, but they change their mind after they've used it.
WP7 has the highest customer satisfaction right now. Reply
crispbp04 - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkYou're too stupid to see the context of my comment, albeit I should have put a semi-colon instead of a period after "the minority of consumers want android". Read the next sentence. Dipshit. Only technogeek nerds WANT Android. Reply
Nataku - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkits ok, let the fanboys struggle with that os, my sis switched to lumia 800 because she's fed up with the two android phone she had
note on consumer (that aren't geeks like us) purchases, they either listen to a friend or get pushed around by the sale people, the rest is marketting (eg. iphone) so no such thing as "every one wants android" crap... Reply
solipsism - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkSo your idea of saving Nokia is to make every Nokia phone run Android so it has to compete with every other OEM using Android and has an ecosystem that appeals to only cheap, profitless devices or geeks, instead of going after the profitable markets by creating a quality and unique experience Nokia can control.
WP7 is their best chance for survival. It's late to the game but WP7 is a brilliant OS, the second best mobile OS and development platform on the market today after iOS/Xcode.
As David Pogue said, It's only downfall is that "it's not popular because it's not popular." Another year could change all that and both Nokia and MS have the money and talent to hold on for many years looking for their opportunity. Reply
Death666Angel - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkSeems to me that most WP7 phones ship for a lot less money than Android hardware does. So I don't know why the margins would be so small. As fas as I know, WP7 also costs licensing whereas Android is free (in theory, MS still gets money for it from some manufacturers).
Use whatever floats your boat, but don't think any one of them is superior in their own right. They are not. Reply
davepermen - Wednesday, January 11, 2012 - linkIf this would have been what consumers wanted, why was nokia going down so hard?
He saves their asses right now. Those N9 fans are loud on internet geek forums and discussions. They are not enough to make them survive, though.
WP7 is a very geeky os, one that you could love if you moved beyond "omg they changed their plans to survive they're SO uncool".
and i'm glad they did NOT went the android route. if you want android, there are already enough options. They need to have something that differenciates them from the masses, without the actual investement into building something on their own that is different. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkHmm... as a long time iOS and Android user I find WP7 very fun and interesting. To each his own I guess. Reply
davepermen - Wednesday, January 11, 2012 - linkWP7 is an interesting os by itself, too. And yes, alive, unlike the N9. Reply
abhicherath - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkthis is really,really pretty....The N9 was rather prettier though.
BTW could anybody tell me why exactly did elop ditch meego.It was functional,zippy and i would take it over mango given the choice...the only thing it lacked was a good ecosystem,ah well..
R.I.P MeeGo. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkTurns out ecosystems aren't easy to come by. Reply
Nataku - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkproblem is that they will need to rebuild another eco system, market the hell out of the thing, and then there is the amount of apps they need to overcome... before that they will need to find ways to tell people why it is superior to other OSes to regular consumers that can't tell the difference between android and ios if you only show them the app screen
well, meego would've been great if it came out before android... Reply
designerfx - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkInteresting read up on the wp7 attempts, as that's what I still consider them at this point.
I'd like to see a review on the HTC rezound if Brian/Anand has one in the works, to compare the two 720p phones. Reply
ecuador - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkOk, the N9 is out for a few months now and I don't understand why there wasn't a review of it here. Especially now with the Lumia 800 review, the obvious question is how do they compare? Did Elop have a point? I can understand Nokia trying to bury the N9 given their new direction, but I would expect tech sites (especially anandtech) to be really curious about this comparison. Reply
Thermogenic - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkBecause Nokia didn't send them one. I don't think AnandTech typically goes out and buys things retail (ala Consumer Reports), but rather reviews what companies ship them. I think reviewing things purchased at retail is the better way of doing it, but it costs more money and guarantees your competitors will get their reviews out much sooner than you will. Reply
sicofante - Friday, January 06, 2012 - linkAnandTech should ASK Nokia for the N9 and tell us they didn't want to provide one if that was the case.
There's little excuse for reviewing the Lumia 800 and not reviewing the phone that actually was designed to be inside its case. Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - link"There's an huge amount riding on the Lumia series, which are Nokia's first devices running Windows Phone 7.5."
This is the SECOND SENTENCE of the article. Do you have any idea how many first-time readers will immediately move on with their search and never return? The "There's an" and "which are" are incorrect (Lumia series is singular, key word THE.) Instead, try "There's a lot riding on the Lumia series, which is Nokia's first to run Windows Phone 7.5."
"On the right side, Nokia's puts their volume rocker above the power button, and then at on lower quarter is the mandatory two-step camera button."
"raises that backside up off surfaces"
"the looks and feels department"
"which we'll also be reviewing soon" should be "which we'll also review soon" (this is a poor writing style, not a mistake)
There are more from the first page. Brian, this article is full of information, but it's just too difficult to extract. What has always been the cornerstone of AT is the beautifully written articles. For the love of God, hire an editor. I'd edit your articles for $100 a pop. Reply
antef - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkAgreed, a single read-through should be enough to catch most of these things, no editor required. I don't understand how any of these make it through unless the author simply types it up and immediately hits "post." Very unprofessional. Reply
Nataku - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linki actually didn't notice it until lketh's comment lol... Reply
bplewis24 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - link"There's an" is incorrect, but "which are" is correct. It has nothing to do with pluralization of "Lumia" and everything to do with "first devices." You wouldn't say "which is Nokia's first devices." Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - link"are" is referring to series which is one thing, a series Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkLook, you either write it the way I suggested above using series, or "There's a lot riding on Lumia devices, which are Nokia's first to run Windows Phone 7.5."
Either way, doesn't matter. Reply
BioTurboNick - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkExcept that "which" proxies for "Lumia series" not "first devices".
Better construction would be "Lumia series of devices, which are..." or "Lumia series, which is Nokia's first line of devices." Reply
BioTurboNick - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkI take that first one back. The subject would still be the series, not the devices. Reply
Brian Klug - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkApologies, these are all fixed now :)
-Brian Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkThx, feel free to delete this thread. I'm not making these posts in the future. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI guess not since you demand $100 for advise like that. Reply
james.jwb - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkAdvice :) Reply
sprockkets - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkYeah, **** this site. After 12 years of reading excellent review I read no more site due to grammer (sic).
Dude, **** yourself. Reply
Starfireaw11 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI'd been wanting to ditch my iPhone 3GS and switch over to a Windows Phone ever since WP7 launched. The problem was that the hardware that was available just plain sucked. It was like the manufacturers weren't even trying. When Nokia announced that they were going to develop WP7 devices, I figured that I would hang on to the iPhone a little longer and wait and see what they could come up with as I'd always loved the build quality of Nokia phones, even my mid '90s brick. Fortunately in the meantime, Microsoft released WP7.5, which fixed a number of issues that were a down side to the WP7 devices, which was a real plus.
When the Lumia 800 finally dropped in the UK, there were no announcements of it being released anywhere else, and I wanted one pretty badly. I ordered one online from a UK carrier and had it shipped to Australia. In the meantime, I contacted my provider and ordered a Micro SIM for it.
I've had the device for about a month now and I have to agree with everything that has been said in this article - I'm really happy with it and it's a huge improvement over the iOS, the build quality is fantastic and it's got a great "feel" to it when using the hardware. I give it an honest 8.5 / 10 and feel the need to point out that the fact that it doesn't get a 9 or 9.5 are all software related (as in the battery issues mentioned, as well as deficiencies in the WP7.5 OS and Zune software).
It's a really great product and if you're sick of iOS and Android devices or if you want to try something different, you should definately give it a go! Reply
N4g4rok - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI've never been able to agree with the poor hardware specs argument mainly because mobile operating systems differ so much in requirements.
A dual core processor on an Android device makes sense because it almost eliminates some of the slowdowns you get with bloated applications or the OS itself. Apple's A5 is tailored to fit their device specifically, so we know the requirements aren't even a negotiable issue.
I don't think WP7 requires as many resources as smartphone advertising has led us to believe. Personally, i've yet to see one get seriously hung up on a 1 Ghz SoC. Even though i can see why developers themselves would be interested in powerful hardware, i think powerhouse applications really fit into a small niche of smartphone use. Reply
Starfireaw11 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkFor the most part, my Lumia 800 is fast, responsive and smooth. There are a few times where you do notice a bit of a slowdown, but certainly nothing worse than any other phone I've ever come across.
A smartphone will always be a balancing act between power consumption, cost and performance, while maintaining a small form-factor. While a Xeon based smartphone would be possible, I don't see one being commercially successful for some reason :D Reply
bplewis24 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkAndroid doesn't have bloated applications nor a bloated OS. Troll harder, or become informed as to what you actually speak of. Reply
N4g4rok - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkMy apologies, i should have specified.
Over time, Android will slow down from fragmentation issues, like most OS's, but i've read more complaints recently about older versions of Android.
And unfortunately, due to poor coding, applications will occasionally succumb to memory leaks, further bogging down the OS. Of course killing the application will fix the problem.
It does not make Android inherently bad. It just makes the point that the OS would likely struggle on lower powered single core SoC's that some other phones have. Reply
Penti - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkMaking core applications and libraries thread on a dual-core or quad-core SoC is just one way of speeding up some of the slower bits. But that's just a stop gap and just one way of doing it. You could just as easily do improvements for single-core SoC's there as well. Fragmentation actually helps overcome some of this. As the vendors put in improvements and eventually gets Google to redesign or implement new things. Just as you would get an actual NDK for WP at some point and can actually write and port normal applications to that platform. Which isn't trouble free. Which will hit limitations and which will fragment ones phone makers invest some into that platform. Nokia and ST-E will bring in none-Qualcomm hardware. They will bring in core alterations to the software and platform and eventually as it has already proven it will be hard to maintain everything.
Just remember WP7 didn't even get sockets until Mango. Stuff like Spotify was ready for MeeGo at pretty much when Nokia released a device and released before Mango got it's client. Just because it got another model to paint stuff on the screen doesn't mean it is superior. Of course poor launchers can destroy a phone, but that is not where it's heading at with many of the vendors having already improved on that. Just look in another year and you will see a whole different market with dual-core being the standard platform driving WP. It took a year to even get basic applications on there... The development kit hasn't been proven as good as advertised by astroturfers. Nobody will make a business on a platform where you can sit and wait a year for even features 10 year old feature phones had. Reply
N4g4rok - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI agree with that, and i do not mean to insist that WP7 is or will be superior to anything else.
The options and large market share that Android offers makes it extremely attractive to multiple vendors, and on top of that, it's flexibility as a development platform is the icing on the cake. Combine that with Google's monitoring of software compatibilities and updating to suit, you end up with a solid, stable platform, just like their most recent releases are shaping up to be.
WP7 has neither of those qualities just yet. Although Microsoft may move in that direction with future releases,but they're taking their time to do it. Taking the time to ensure hardware compatibility is great, but like you mentioned, taking too long getting it up to speed will achieve nothing other than wasting a lot of time and money. Reply
crispbp04 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkLook at the pot calling the kettle black. Reply
doubledeej - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkI've had two different top-of-the-line Android phones and they were both horribly slow and liked to stutter constantly. It was very annoying. I switched to WP7 and haven't looked back. Reply
steven75 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - link"I've had the device for about a month now and I have to agree with everything that has been said in this article - I'm really happy with it and it's a huge improvement over the iOS,"
Except the review doesn't say this. It basically points out that WP7 Mango is where iOS and Android were a year ago. Reply
crispbp04 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkWeak editorial. I lol'd at "fledgling application ecosystem". Reply
Spivonious - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkYeah, aren't there like 200,000 apps now? All of the needed ones are there.
I've been very impressed with WP7 Mango. The fact is that you don't need apps because lots of functionality is built in. People hub gets you Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, as well as standard contact info and links to send texts, IMs, emails, post on walls, etc. The Messaging hub combines texting, IM, and emails, grouped by the person you're conversing with. The Xbox hub places all of your games in one place. The Music+Video hub places all of your media and media-watching apps in one place. Bing Search combines web search, Sound Hound, Google Goggles, and Yelp.
And live tiles on the main screen let me see what I'm looking for without opening an app.
The strength of WP7 is the integration of services in one place. It's perfect for the average consumer. Reply
steven75 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkIt combines IM, only missing AIM, GChat, Yahoo--you know, the services people actually use.
Missing youtube client, missing ability to open PDF files. Are you aware that both Android and iOS can do this stuff out of the box? Reply
Reflex - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkMSN/Live is the most used chat client in the world, and its not paticularly close. Facebook is likely second by now, and it builds that in as well. Yahoo was right after MSN/Live a few years ago, I don't know where it is today, however MSN and Yahoo interoperate, you can add your Y! contacts directly to your MSN/Live contact list.
AIM is dying. GChat has a substantial userbase, but its not at the level of others. Thier bases are pretty well covered in that regard.
Youtube worked out of the box for me. Not sure why you think it dosen't support it. Plus there are tons of third party clients available for free as apps if you don't like the built in player or the custom one that HTC and others ship.
Adobe Reader is available in the app store, I have it on mine. Reply
Spivonious - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkExactly. Youtube works for me with no extra apps. The Adobe Reader app is free in the marketplace, although I have yet to open a PDF file on the phone. Of course, Office docs can be opened with no problems, which is 99% of what I want to open.
I'll admit, this is my first smartphone, but I have used my Dad's iPhone, and have played with my sister's Android phone. WP7 is easier to use, and does way more out-of-the-box. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkAndroid can't open PDF files out of the box unless it has an app installed to do so, just like WP7. And MSN and Facebook chat are the two most popular chat services in the world. Finally, it's missing a YouTube client only because Google doesn't permit Microsoft to include one out of the box. It's not a big deal though. Several great YouTube clients are just a couple clicks away in the Marketplace. Reply
Thermogenic - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkGoogle wouldn't allow them to do Youtube properly, unfortunately. Reply
augustofretes - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkIt is a really weak ecosystem, the number of apps may not be 0, but it is low compared to Android and iOS, and more importantly, the quality of the apps is a lot lower.
I felt WP could catch, perhaps surpass, Android and iOS by now, but I was wrong, iOS is still strong, and Android moved a lot, many WP advantages were eliminated with ICS (and that's its real competition: Android, not iOS).
I own both a Galaxy S II running ICS (CM9) and an Omnia 7, although WP7 was a lot less uglier than GB, and is objectively good, ICS is really, really good, I no longer miss anything when using the S II instead of my Omnia 7. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkAh how we forget. Android didn't really go anywhere in its first year either. Building a completely new platform takes time. Reply
augustofretes - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkThe state of the market is completely different, now you can get a modern smartphone with Android or iOS on almost any carrier on almost all countries.Back then the iPhone was only available on a handful of carriers and countries.
Moreover, by now, Android had Eclair and the Droid, which pushed Android forward, as likeable as the Lumia 800 is, I highly doubt it is or will play the same role as the Droid.
But will see, hopefully WP will improve and will become a solid third (and hopefully it will stop being one or two hardware generations behind). Reply
R3MF - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linknice hardware, but as the owner of an N9 i feel i got the whole package, not merely some quality hardware as is the case with the Lumia 800. Reply
beginner99 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkbigger and 20 g more than the competition with same hardware. I carry my phone in the pocket and hence size and weight matter a lot... Reply
Thermogenic - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkThe polycarbonate shell gives it the weight. That's one of the main selling features of the phone, but it's not for everyone. Reply
jagor - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkIt seems you have the High and Low levels switched in the Display Metrics table. If so, and max brightness is just 196 nits for the High level, you probably should use the High brighness level in the battery tests for an apples to apples comparison. Reply
Brian Klug - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkFixed!
-Brian Reply
zvadim - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI find USB ports on top to be a PIA when using phone in a windshield/dash mount. Reply
ReySys - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkFinally no thanks to Microsoft or Nokia Marketing or Carrier in Mexico I´m going to have mine thru Expansys Unlocked! Really a lot to do to market WP7 worldwide! More than 20 models last year but only LG Optimus arrive to Mexico thru Telcel! I decide to wait to mature a little more... My decision was right Optimus has Battery problems. Still Ipm going to buy an, Thinkpad W, Asus Transformer Prime & maybe at last an iphone 5! Sorry IT Administrator & Consultor need to test & from an opinion. Already have 2 blackberrys! I before all of them a Dopod 900! Still functioning! Long wait! Reply
Braumin - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI was hoping for more, I know it is a bit misguided but the opening paragraph said it would look into the new features that Mango brought to WP7. They were barely even talked about.
I understand that Apple and Android are dominant, so when they sneeze out a tiny update they get an entire article just for the update. This was just a gloss over of WP7.5. Anandtech should have given it a review on its own.
I know Brian doesn't use WP7 as his smartphone, but quips like this bug me "It's is telling about the functionality still missing from the core of WP7 that you need to go download a YouTube and Adobe Reader application from the market to use those things"
Well, you don't HAVE to download a YouTube app - you COULD just go to the youtube web page. Is it telling about the functionality still missing from the core of iOS 5 that you still have to install a facebook app? Facebook is fairly well integrated into WP7, and so is twitter. I know it is still missing things, but these are the items that should have come up in the Mango review which just never happened. Reply
steven75 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkThat part about downloading Adobe Reader does sound pretty behind the times to me. Only Microsoft has an OS that can't natively read PDF files (that goes for the desktop too). Reply
Braumin - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI agree about Adobe Reader - sure am glad it is FINALLY going to be native in Windows 8. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkAndroid can't natively read PDF files without a third party app either, but I don't see what the big deal is regardless. If you try to open a PDF file on a WP7 device it asks if you want to install a PDF reader from the Marketplace and proceeds to do that for you. Painless. Reply
Brian Klug - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI wanted to spend a lot more time codifying why (for me at least) I think that WP7 needs more before it really feels as powerful as Android or iOS. We've been big fans of WP7 for a while now (I was at MIX10 when it launched, and we covered the WP7 launch) but I still can't shake the feeling that it should be more at this point.
Codifying that was my original objective for part of this article, and obviously some of that didn't really make it though in the end. I use WP7 now and then, but I'll be first to admit it isn't nearly as much as Android and iOS.
-Brian Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkYou can't watch youtube videos without the app on WP. If you try, the website instructs you to download the youtube app first. You can browse youtube all you want, just can't play the videos. The way the site words this almost makes it sound like it's youtube's fault, but I wouldn't know. Reply
melgross - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkSo, this is a fairly mediocre phone as far as performance goes, but the reviewer really wants to believe it to be better than it is.
It's pretty obvious that WP7+ needs a dual core SoC, with a much better GPU. When that happens, we'll see a phone that can properly compare to the other top phones on other OS's, such as Android and iOS. Until then, no excuses can fix the slow nature of this model. If this were a cheaper, lower end model, it might be worthwhile, but for the flagship model, it's simply not worth it.
And then, AMOLED isn't really ready for prime time. Despite the propaganda from the manufacturers who use them, I've not yet seen a review of an AMOLED device that was more than about half as bright as a good LCD model, and often no better than a third as bright. This one seems poor. To say that it seems brighter than it can possibly be, is nonsense.
I hope that we will see much better phones than this one during the year, and soon. If not, it will be another reason why WP7 will struggle. Reply
Brian Klug - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI'd agree with that assertion - WP7 does need to make the move to dual core, (and will make the move to dual core) if nothing else to get all the other features that come with it. I touched on this a little, but better encoders, better decoders, and on the QCT side better baseband all come on the high-end before eventually showing up on the midrange.
The other curious thing is that AMOLED can actually go way brighter (with some of Supercurio's hacks, you can drive the SGS2 SAMOLED Plus display up past 500 nits) but you end up just burning through battery. Obviously there's still some balancing being done by OEMs to keep battery from being totally depleted.
-Brian Reply
melgross - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkThere are several very good reasons why AMOLEDs aren't bright. LED's of all kinds, but especially OLED'S, are very constrained by temperature. The higher they are driven, the hotter they get. The hotter they get, the shorter the life. Driving an AMOLED screen to the brightness of the 4S, for example, would bring the lifetime down to less than a quarter of what it is now.
In addition, this isn't a linear relationship. More voltage results in less than a 1:1 relationship in brightness, and an even worse relationship when looking at current draw. There's a good reason why UI's designed for AMOLED's use a great deal of black with thin lettering. On average, right now, even the best AMOLEDs use more current than do most LCDs with high efficiency LED backlighting. I find it amusing when I read that AMOLEDs use less energy, when they use more.
I have a lot of LED's here, up to 200 watts (for a single LED). I've yet to find one that lives up to its promise, though they're getting better. I would give AMOLED's at least another two years, and with IGZO displays coming out, possibly another four years until they equal the efficiency.
Color quality, which is poor, is another question altogether. Reply
french toast - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkAMOLEDs typically dont come half as bright as the brightest lcds, hell the nokia 701 gets over 1000nits brightness!! so thats 5 times brighter than this model.
However brightness tests like this rarely carry through to real life,especially when talking about AMOLEDS, they have the best contrast ratio as well as saturated colours which make the screen pop, you never read a review about an AMOLED phone and get complaints about it being dull..quite the contrary the AMOLED always seems to be brighter..
If brian hadnt ran that test, he wouldnt have mentioned that the screen seems dull.
Some of the appeal of AMOLEDS is that over saturated colour profile, which seems to be a marmite issue, half the people prefer IPS LCD and half swear by a decent RGB AMOLED.
AMOLEDS have many advantages over LCD though, they are thinner, much much better contrast, far far superior response time, more eye popping colours and better power levels when watching dark seens like movies...The sunlight issue which was the worse complaint has disapeared.
One of the biggest complaints about AMOLED compared to a high quality LCD is color accuracy..BUT although this is a bug for some,
most people PREFER the saturated colors, indeed when i read reviews on you tube of people comparing the most accurate hd phone display yet..the IH-IPS display on the LG Nitro the reviewers said they much prefered the nexus display, and that somehow it gave the impression of being BRIGHTER..despite what these tests say. Reply
Spivonious - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkSlow nature of this model? I have one of the launch WP7 phones (LG Quantum), and experience no slowness. The fact is that MS has optimized the OS to perform on a single-core CPU. The phone OEMs are free to add an improved GPU, but there's no need for it. Javascript benchmarks are meaningless to me. Who browses the web for any amount of time on a 4" screen? Reply
melgross - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkJust read the tests. It's all there. Sometimes something doesn't feel as slow, or as fast as it is, but the numbers don't lie. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI'll take real world feel over benchmark numbers any day. My Titan feels faster and more fluid than my Galaxy S II. What else is there to say? Reply
doubledeej - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkIf someone spent all day every day running Javascript, I might agree with you. But so little of the time spent using the phone is spent doing that. Everything else about the phone feels much faster than ANY Android model, regardless of CPU speed or number of cores. Having everything be GPU accelerated makes a world of difference in how fast it feels.
You just never wait for anything other than your data connection on these phones. Reply
doobydoo - Saturday, January 07, 2012 - linkI've never tried the Titan, but your reasoning is exactly why the iPhone 4S feels faster than the Galaxy S2 too - the GPU hardware acceleration.
That and the fact it has the fastest CPU/GPU combination of any phone ever made. Reply
465thGTG - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkSounds like you aren't thoroughly familiar with Windows Phone. As far as performance goes, my Titan consistently feels faster and more fluid than my Galaxy S II, which has ungodly specs. Benchmarks may paint one picture, but real world use paints a completely different one.
Speaking of the Titan, I can't believe Brian didn't mention it at all. Its camera is a clear step above both the Focus S and Lumia 800. Reply
doubledeej - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkWhat evidence do you have for WP7 needing dual core? My HTC HD7 runs circles around my coworker's Galaxy S II with a lower clock speed and half of the number of cores.
WP7 renders graphics using the GPU so everything feels fast and fluid. Android doesn't even attempt to do that until 3.0 (which isn't available on phones). ICS adds it, but not many models are getting that yet.
AMOLED is beautiful. Fully saturated colors and infinite contrast ratio. I'd take an AMOLED at half of the rated brightness of an LCD any day. The AMOLED screens in production aren't too dim. But some of the LCDs can get too bright. Reply
french toast - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkI agree AMOLEDS are awesome!, i havnt seen a modern one but i saw my mates HTC desire when that came out and it was cool, if they have improved since then then i want one!
I havnt used WP7 so i cant comment on responsivness, but what i will say is that multi cores devices actually bring the power consumption DOWN, whilst making something that can be multithreaded eg web browsing even smoother, it also gives games developers power to make better games, the GPU on the old snapdragon is weak, so while the OS may run smooth thanks to miccrosofts supreme optimizations,you cant tell me you wouldnt want better more powerfull engine inside, that gives better battery life as well as better games would you?
Either way, WP7 whilst clearly very slick, is selling like ice creams in antartica, and i think this has to do with the pecieved out of date specs, like NFC duel core LTE etc, people want the lastest gadgets with the same stuff there friends have..
Microsoft MUST start delivering some up to date hardware. Reply
LB-ID - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkBrian, just FYI. Article's last page, paragraph three:
"at least min my mind"
I believe that should be: "at least in my mind".
Thanks for the article and analysis! Reply
Brian Klug - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkFixed!
-Brian Reply
Brian Klug - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkThanks for all the edits/corrections everyone, I've made a number of changes (all those listed here). :)
-Brian Reply
comomolo - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI understand Nokia doesn't want the N9 to succeed or their Windows Phone strategy is doomed. But this is an independent news site, isn't it? Where's the N9 in the comparison charts? Where's the N9 review? Comparing the Lumia with the phone it inherited the design from (the N9) is only logical. Hiding it from your readers is not very professional.
Yes, Nokia decided to "kill" Meego (that's just a public statement; it's obviously their "plan B" and will be the basis for their upcoming "low end" Meltemi), but for a whole lot of people who couldn't care less about "ecosystems" (which is just a new euphemism for "lock-in"), its applications offer is pretty nice. In some areas, like telephony, is much better than anything else on the market, and because it's fairly open, lots of hacks and community apps and add-ons are being developed every day. Honestly, unless you lack any knowledge of technology (and then, why would you want a smartphone?) the N9 is currently offering much better value than the Lumia or any other Windows Phone 7 device. Reply
Belard - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI'm looking at jumping from Android to WPx... as it is, I am running the free WP7 Launcher on my Android that makes using the phone so much easier than the default Android one.
I see postings from WP7 owners wishing the titles would rotate with the phone (As we know, not even iOS and Android does this)...
But there is the cool thing, the WP7 Launcher for Android *DOES* rotate the tiles - which not only looks cool, its handy and allows you to read the titles. Of course the wide titles can't rotate, but this function would SO be worth it. Reply
Voldenuit - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkThanks for the great review!
Minor nitpick, though. The F number by convention is reported as a reciprocal when used with lower case 'f', and as a normal number when used with upper case 'F'. It's just one of those weird notation conventions in photography.
f/2.0 == F2.0 == an aperture with a diameter half the focal length of the lens.
Camera geek with N8 in hand ;). Reply
Solidstate89 - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkIf they could get that rumored Lumia 900 on Sprint with the 4.3" screen, I would finally be able to switch to a pure software keyboard. The keyboard WP7 uses is utterly fantastic, from its sound to its autocorrect. It's juts great. However on the 3.6" screen on my Arrive, it's a bit cramped even when in landscape mode. However something as large as 4.3" is certainly enough to make me move. Reply
Thermogenic - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkAgreed, the Windows Phone keyboard is the best software keyboard out there, at least for the default ones installed on the major platforms. Reply
doubledeej - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkWP7 by far as the best default on-screen keyboard. And its auto correction is the best I've seen on any device, ever. Reply
JNo - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - link"SIM cutters are now so ubiquitous..."
Ubiquitous means omnipresent so something is either ubiquitous or not - there aren't varying levels of it. "SIM cutters are now ubiquitous" is enough.
Likewise things are unique (one of a kind) but not "quite unique" or "very unique" like I read daily. *pet peeve*
Ok grammar (well vocab I guess) nazi moment over. I do understand that language evolves so I guess I'm just an old curmudgeon for wanting words to keep their meaning... Reply
essemzed - Wednesday, January 04, 2012 - linkI'm currently a BlackBerry user: nice sound tool, but I'm on the market for something "newer" and more "future proof".
I use my phone as a tool and not having a replaceable battery is a capital sin for me: I want to have a second charged battery at hand and be able to quickly replace the dead one when I run out of gas.
Same problem with iPhones (not to mention my allergy to apples).
Android: I had a Samsung Galaxy Nexus in my hands for few minutes and it looks quite OK, but it is too large for my tastes and habits.
I want to make calls, some SMS texting, a fast user interface, a good browser, a robust Outlook and GoogleApps integration, possiblity to access and store my most used and important documents (Word, Excel, PDF), a good and very robust passwords "keychain". Very valuable pluses would be a good media (mostly music) library and possiblity to use Skype (even if only when on WiFi).
It is my feeling that WP 7.5 could be the right stuff for me, but is there any WP 7.5 phone around with a replacebale battery?
Very nice review, thanks!
Sergio Reply
Thermogenic - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkWindows Phone definitely does not have good Google Apps integration. Really the only thing Google that is done well is Gmail. The phone does do Office better than anything else, as should be expected.
The Zune music library with Zune Pass is excellent, IMO, but it does pretty much tie you to a single machine. It's nice that it syncs over WiFi painlessly - the lack of "USB Storage mode" is a little overblown, IMO.
Oddly, there is no Skype support at all, although that HAS to be coming soon as Microsoft now owns Skype. Reply
Thermogenic - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkCommenting further on Zune Pass, it's actually four devices (any combination of PCs, Zune, and Windows Phone), but if you have a second family member using the pass, you are essentially going to each have one mobile device and one PC. If you are alone, in theory you can use multiple PCs, but then keeping synchronized is a mess and you end up just using the one PC. Reply
batmanuel - Friday, January 13, 2012 - linkEven the Gmail integration feels a little half-assed in Android. On my Atrix it is a huge pain having one mail app for all my other accounts, and one for just Gmail. I'd much prefer if there was one unified mail app. With my previous Android phone, HTC did have an app that could check Gmail with everything else, but then I wound up with double email notifications since the Gmail app would also notify me. I haven't tried ICS yet, but there's a lot of little annoyances in Android that add up to a bit of a hot mess in the end. Reply
ct760ster - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkPun in tongue, literally is shown at the conclusion pictures. Few handsets has evenly flat sides. Reply
sachinD - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkdidnt see this mentioned but this is a feature that is missing big time. No Skype video calls !!! Reply
Thermogenic - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkThere is no Skype for Windows... Reply
smellslikepoo - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkI don't have this phone or an android or an iphone. Last year I shelled out for an unlocked N8 after doing some research. Personally for me it's a awesome piece of tech. The Ovi Store is somewhat limited in it's selection but this really doesn't faze me much. All of the most popular stuff was included or could be a downloaded for free. The processor is a little long in the tooth but I haven't seen another phone that comes close to the hardware packed into my N8. When I bought it I purchased an Otterbox case as well. Most people who see the phone in the case think it is a cheap android.
Ihave used my girlfriend's iphone 3 and played with alot of droid phones. Recently I bought a gingerbread tablet. The first thing I noticed about android is that it is alot of fun on my tablet but would hate to be stuck with android on a phone.
I thought the iphone was pretty nice but would hate to be stuck with itunes and all the other things apple. I wasn't impressed with the phone aspect of the phone either.
When people would ask me what apps I could run or how fast my processor is most of the time I'd say... I I dunno. It do know I have a 12mp camera with a real xeon flash, bt3, usb to go, real gps with a lifetime of free maps all around the world, amoled screen, hdmi, works as a wifi hotspot and 48 gb of storage. People look at the case and think it's another cheap plastic knock off until I show them the aluminum body that is...
I was Reply
smellslikepoo - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - link.... Hoping this phone would be like my N8 only with WP7. Guess I'll keep my-not-so-smart-but-has-the-features-I-actually-use-in-a-phone-camera until they come out with something comparable.
In all honesty I'd pay double today for another N8 if I could use it on Verizon's network. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkThis hasn't necessarily got anything to do with the Lumia, but wanted to share it nonetheless.
I don't understand Nokia's reputation for solid phones quite frankly. My experience is a small sample size, but the experiences made in my circle of family and friends is nothing but horrendous. A friend had an N85 which broke 2 times (couldn't dial anymore once and display crack the second time) which got replaced by a N95. That had random reboots and bad call quality. A family member from my wifes side had a N97 which they can't do anything with because it is much too slow. Another friend got a Nokia X8 but portrait/landscape orientation doesn't work one bit. I don't know anyone who has a Nokia Smartphone and is happy and content.
Granted, Samsung, Apple, LG, HTC etc. aren't marvels of quality control. But at least they don't have a reputation like that. They get called out when shitty stuff happens. I don't see the same level of scrutiny applied to Nokia.
As for the phone reviewed here. I feel thoroughly underwhelmed. Battery/charging issues, small display (personal taste), ordinary build quality, irreplaceable battery, great camera.... My SGS2 shoots photos that I cannot distinguish from my point and shoot (Canon IS590), that is good enough for me (again, personal taste).
But since WP7 is kinda supposed to be on the cheap side, 420€ for this thing is too much. I get an SGS2 for the same kind of money with a better screen (RGB>RGBG), better SoC performance and better battery times. If you want WP7, go with another brand would be my advice and use the money saved to buy the next generation. This thing ain't worth it. :) Reply
Heron Kusanagi - Thursday, January 05, 2012 - linkBefore that, what is the X8? There's only the X7 in Nokia's portfolio.
Well, Nokia feature and dumb phones back in the day have that reputation of solidness. My family has quite good experience with Nokia, especially with the E series. My E63 is with me for 3 years going on the 4th. My dad's E5 is holding up amazingly too.
The thing is Nokia doesn't get called out because it was the best before the iPhone came out, and if you
I think mileage will differ. Like how some guys swear by Acer while I keep having issues with it.
I am skipping this generation of Nokia WP7 phones because of my contract which doesn't end in June. But I do think the Lumia 800 is a solid first attempt. Reply
Death666Angel - Friday, January 06, 2012 - linkMeant the Nokia X7, got a bit confused with the Xperia X8. :-) Reply
binqq - Friday, January 06, 2012 - linkOur Website: ===== www fashion-long-4biz com ====
Our main product list is as follows: Reply
huy5sys - Tuesday, January 10, 2012 - linkNokia missed an important trick IMO.
How about a 3:2 mode for 6x4 prints withou the need to crop?
16:9 ==> 3552 x 1998 = 7,096,896 pixels
4:3 ==> 3264 x 2448 = 7,990,272 pixels
3:2 ==> 3462 x 2308 = 7,990,296 pixels
About the same pixel count as the 4:3 mode
Probably needs only a minor software change.
Makes a big difference.
Hope someone from Nokia is listening. Reply
juzzle - Thursday, January 19, 2012 - linkI spent 5 days with a Nokia Lumia 800. I loved it, but returned it. Read the whole story (compared to the iPhone 4S) at the link below:
"The Nokia Lumia 800 and Windows Phone Mango 7.5 make a formidable combination. Beautiful build quality, gorgeous display, immediate responsiveness and an extremely elegant operating system (clearly better in many respects than iOS5). I bought the phone 5 days ago to replace my painfully slow iPhone 3G. Despite this praise however, the phone is going back today, replaced by my shiny new iPhone 4S – "what?!" I hear you say – well read on."
Be warned that some grey market versions of this phone (notably Hong Kong) do not come with Nokia Drive or Nokia Music.
http://opinionroad.com/2012/01/16/nokia-lumia-800-... Reply
Shuol - Sunday, February 05, 2012 - linkThe phone has a great feel and looks great on the desk. But the software really lets the phone down. It is obviously microsoft software which always lack innovation. The user experience is defined by the programmed functions - i.e. it's bottom up instead of top-down. e.g. when you go to bed you set an alarm. Instead of the phone asking whether it should turn off the phone function until the alarm goes off, you have to set flight mode. This is 2012 not 1990. Nokia gave me corporate blah blah and passed the buck to microsoft, so I created www.nokia-lumia-800.org to vent my frustration and collect everyones thoughts. Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, March 07, 2012 - linkAccording to Engadget and a few others the new firmware (as of today I think) nearly triples the battery life, I'd like to see that tested. That's either some crazy optimization or some crazy bad original firmware Reply


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Low Power Server CPU Redux: Quad-Core Comes to Playby Jason Clark & Ross Whitehead on 9/13/2007 6:05 AM EST
- Posted in
- IT Computing
36 Comments
Back to Article
Justin Case - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkCould Anandtech restrict the advertising to the banners? Editorial advertising forces poor ad-blocker programmers to work overtime.
First, right after the Barcelona (AMD quad-core) launch, we get an article titled "Quad core comes to play"... that pits Intel quad-core CPUs against AMD dual-core ones (published *after* AT covered Barcelona, in Johan's article). Secondly, the article ends with a link to the "Intel resource center". Finally, the article's icon, which contains AMD's logo, links to Intel's site.
Proteusza - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkI think Anandtech knows which side of its bread is buttered. Reply
Frumious1 - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkYou people - and you especially, Mr. Justin Case who LOVES AMD - are pathetic. "It's so unfair - AMD tries so hard and they have their quad core part shipping now and AnandTech intentionally published an article they had worked on for weeks right after the K10 launch in order to slight AMD!" Care for some cheese with your whine?
I guess I'm one of the few that can read all of the articles here and see what ISN'T explicitly stated? How about this one from Anand's Phenom "performance estimate":
Then, at the very end (literally two hours before publication) of our benchmarking, the AMD server stopped POSTing. As of now the system will simply sit there and spin its fans without actually putting anything on the screen. A number of things could have happened, but thankfully the Barcelona system decided to die after we ran all of our tests.
Now let me tell you, as an IT guy that is ABSOLUTELY INSANE! We are talking an enterprise part, and it died during testing. Read the pre-launch articles as well, and you get the impression that AMD is scrambling like crazy to rush this out the door, that they've had all sorts of difficulties, and that at best Barcelona/Phenom need a few more months in the oven before they're fully baked. I can't even imagine any large corporation seriously considering Barcelona with statements like that, at least not until the BIOS revisions and everything else are worked out. But hey, let's let the blind AMD fanboys complain about biased coverage because Anand and company didn't run additional tests on a Barcelona server that broke down during testing!
You know what would be fair? It would be fair if Anand basically ripped AMD a new one and said what a complete joke the Barcelona launch has been. They got "final" CPUs one week before the launch: "We went from no Barcelona, to fist-fulls of Barcelona in one weekend." Ask any of the tech people out there when they first saw Harpertown CPUs in house. Yes, a product that hasn't been officially unveiled yet, and I'd bet there are thousands of the processors in the hands of testers, businesses, reviewers, etc. But AMD is freaking awesome because they made a new processor.
AMD having problems isn't the fault of Intel, Anandtech, NVIDIA, or anyone but AMD. They are failing to execute, they are missing windows of opportunity, and all the fanboys can do is try to find any excuse to blame someone other than the real culprits. AMD has issues right now, they are losing money, and it doesn't look like Barcelona is going to do anything beyond maintaining parity at best. Why don't you complain about people not benchmarking with the cherry picked 3.0GHz Barcelona chips that aren't on any roadmaps for the next year while you're at it? Complain about the unfair comparisons where a $350 Barcelona is compared to a $350 Clovertown, because the Intel chip runs at a 20% higher clock speed?
Again: pathetic. That's all your diehard AMD dedication is. If they had the better processor, that would be great, but it appears that they don't and very likely they won't for a long time. Frankly, I'm not sure they can survive the coming years if they continue their present trend. Hopefully IBM can bail them out (again). Reply
Proteusza - Sunday, September 16, 2007 - linkIts got nothing to do with love for AMD or Intel.
Had the situation been reverse, I would have said the same thing. The article's title is quad core comes to play. Now, as far as I see it, that can be interpreted in one of two ways:
1. Intel has just brought out their new quad core cpus so we can finally test them against AMD's dual core cpus.
2. AMD has just released their quad core cpus, so we can finally test quad core cpus from both manufacturers.
Now, we know that 1. is false because Intel has had quad core cpus for over a year or something. And we know that 2. is also false because AMD's quad core cpus werent tested in this article.
So, at the end of the day, we have a meaningless title. Quad core comes to play? Duh its been out for ages.
In any case, I dont think that Anandtech are biased towards Intel. Oh no, I think they are just paid to do advertising articles sometimes. Like almost all sites. Look at this article: it comes out within days of AMD launching its server quad core cpus, the AMD/Intel logo goes to Intel's site, there is an Intel resource centre link at the end of the article. Too many coincidences for me to think this isnt anything but advertising.
Again, I will state I enjoy cpus from both manufacturers, and I have no preference. But this is just poorly disguised advertising. Had I known less about cpus, I would have thought the CPUs being tested were Barcelona cpus, and that it was found that Intel were better. You'd be surprised what people pick up from skimming over articles. Reply
iceburger - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkIMHO the article was not really biased - it only convinced me that intel doesn't have such a great "low power" processor unless the load is kept high through virtualization, because in the real world there aren't that many servers that run at 100% 24/7. It was ok up until the "intel resource link"...and then I found out about the logo.........
Now how much are THEY paying for each click-$0.25? $0.30?
Wow...I'm speechless.
But it fits the bill- intel is the one that pays Google to advertise them when you search AMD. Why would I not think that AT is on someone's payroll? Not a real surprise- following steadily into THG shoes- away from enthusiast site , closer to click generator.
One step closer to deleting my bookmark. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkDespite what you may think, the advertising is totally separate from any editorial content. I have no idea who even advertises with us, and there has never been any suggestion of doing a good review for an advertiser - quite the opposite in fact. I have heard it specifically stated more than once, "Just because [company X] wants us to look at a product doesn't mean we need to do so. If it's interesting, then fine, but we are not an extension of the marketing departments."
Now, obviously Intel is an advertiser; no surprise there since they advertise with just about every hardware site out there. Do they pay extra for a link that says "Intel Resource Center" at the end? Probably - I don't even know - but that link is automatically inserted by the document engine whenever we (or really I, given I'm the content editor) select Intel as the manufacturer on an article. As for the logo... well, that's tied to the same thing.
I have now changed the manufacturer to "Various" as opposed to Intel, which makes the logo do... nothing, other than take you back to the main AT page. (I wish we got paid for every click on that....) I didn't really think about it when posting the article, and since it was primarily an update of the Dual-core results only with an Intel Quad-core CPU, I figured it was sensible that Intel was the primary manufacturer and set it accordingly. Thus, the logo took you to the Intel site, just like the logo in my review of the HP Blackbird 002 links back to HP when you click it.
Sorry for the confusion, but the conspiracy theories are unfounded. Back to your regularly scheduled articles, and feel free to check back tomorrow afternoon for a continuation of this series.
Take care,
Jarred Walton
Senior Editor
AnandTech.com Reply
JarredWalton - Sunday, September 16, 2007 - linkSee above. The actual title is: "Low Power Server CPU Redux: Quad-Core Comes to Play" Note the Low Power part; the Xeon L5335 L5320 and L5310 are indeed newer parts - the L5335 in particular. We looked at LV Xeon and Opteron last time (something like SIX MONTHS after the parts were initially released), so the fact that this article continues from that point as opposed to the latest Barcelona isn't particularly relevant. Different editors, different testing procedures, different locations. Barcelona and Harpertown testing for a future article are in progress... which means not done, which is why this article was posted now without such information. I'd love to get all the latest data for every option out there "yesterday" as well; unfortunately, reality isn't so easy. Reply
Justin Case - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkI "love" AMD about as much as I love any other mega corporation (which is to say very, very little). I buy whichever CPUs give better performance per dollar or (in very rare situations) better performance per watt. Right now that means Intel for laptops and 1S workstations, AMD for servers, and either one for midrange desktop systems.
What I definitely do not love is the way some of the main "hardware review" websites have turned into an extension of the manufacturers' marketing departments, basically publishing press releases, fake "reports" and "editorial" ads. Hardware review sites are supposed to be allies of the consumers, not allies of the industry.
If it wasn't for Anand's and Johan's articles (and the comments from a small number of smart and informed people), this site wouldn't be worth reading at all, these days.
formulav8 - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkJust somewhat curious as to why the hybrid AMD/Intel Logo on each page of the review next to the author info has a link that goes to Intels site? Obviously anand can do what he wants, I just saw it as kinda wierd that a hybrid logo with AMD on it would go to Intel? :?
jason Reply
steveha - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkHow about adding Q6600 based 1U server into the mix this takes the good parts of boths systems, Low usage Intel CPU and Low usage DDR yet still gives 4 * 2.4Ghz Cores. Reply
flyck - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkwhy didn't you wait to revail this article when the tests were done on a barcelona system ?
Now it is just comparing apples with oranges and thus making the conclusion obsolete. Reply
Phynaz - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkSince you can't buy a Barcelona based system at this point in time, this article is hardly "obsolete". Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkYou'll get Barcelona results for this sort of testing soon enough. The problem is, AnandTech isn't a single location; like many websites, we have people scattered around a large area. Johan and Christoph are even located in Europe, for example. So just because one of us has immediate access to certain hardware (i.e. the Barcelona launch CPUs) doesn't mean we all have access at the same time. Besides, the Barcelona launch articles literally had access to the CPUs for about four days before launch, and they were busy running other tests for the duration of that time. Reply
Justin Case - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkThis article was published 3 days after Johan's Barcelona article.
I suppose it's beyond Anandtech's technical ability to run the same benchmarks in the "european" and "american" systems, and compare the results? Maybe they wouldn't be valid due to the time zone or the metric system or something...?
Or maybe this article's "conclusions" had already been written, and doing a real quad vs. quad (instead of quad vs. dual) comparison would have spoiled things?
JarredWalton - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkAs a matter of fact, yes, the article testing was indeed completed before Barcelona officially launched. The introduction and conclusion were edited to account for the fact that Barcelona is now officially launched (though not actually available for purchase anywhere). Will we test Barcelona performance/watt for a future article? Yes, and probably sooner rather than later. Does that make this article wrong? Nope. The conclusion is that a currently available quad-core Clovertown LV can beat a dual-core Opteron in some cases.
"In this article we see the tables turn somewhat. With two extra cores the Intel Clovertown parts are able to easily outpace the AMD Opteron, at least when overall load is near saturation. At low to average workloads, there is little difference between any of the parts, in which case server consolidation might be a better solution. Obviously, the quad-core parts are best suited for loaded database servers and their sweet spot is in virtualized environments." (Emphasis added.)
I'm not exactly sure what the problem is with that conclusion. Quad-core is better in heavy load environments, and having the ability to choose between quad and dual-core CPUs certainly can't be bad for companies. I guess you would rather have nothing than an article that examines one more facet of the performance spectrum? FB-DIMMs still use a lot of power, but it's nice to see that as the number of CPU cores ramps up, the overall penalty isn't quite as severe. How will Barcelona and Harpertown change the picture? We will have an article on that subject soon enough. Reply
Proteusza - Sunday, September 16, 2007 - linkThen you should have pulled the article. It makes no sense now. "Quad core comes to play"?
Intels quad core has been out for how long now? Quad core comes to play, in my mind, implies that either Intels quad cores are new, or that we have quad cores from both tested in this article.
Neither is true. Reply
JarredWalton - Sunday, September 16, 2007 - linkIntel LV Quad-core is in fact brand new, however, and it's actually available for purchase right now. That is what this article is about, and the introduction makes it pretty clear. If the title makes some people click through to check out the article, and they end up disappointed that Barcelona isn't present, they can get over it. I'm sure when we post the Barcelona equivalent that it will have some equally catchy title to get people to give it a look.
Perhaps by that point in time Barcelona procs will actually be available at major vendors. You can find prices for the Opteron 2350 at a lot of places, but every site that I've checked out is "temporarily backordered" or "out of stock". At $400-$500, the Opteron 2350 will certainly be an interesting alternative. Companies that have Socket F/1207 servers will definitely be interested. Of course, before they switch they'll want to test for at least a few weeks (or months) in a non-production environment. BIOS flashing on a server is not something IT departments like to do on a regular basis, and my bet is we will see several BIOS updates before the transition is done. Reply
Proteusza - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkIts LV quad core may be brand new, but quad core itself isnt.
Quad core itself is a year old, or more, and your title implies otherwise to me. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, September 17, 2007 - link"Low Power" is in the title... I'm not sure we can really do much more beyond changing the title to "Low Power Quad-Core Xeon without Barcelona"... but just wait a bit longer and then you can see other results for other CPUs. Reply
Justin Case - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkSo you're saying that this article was published now due to the release of new low-voltage Xeon models, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Barcelona launch?
Following that line of thought, the article's title should have been "Quad-core Xeons: Low power models come to play". The "new" thing (and thus what now "comes to play") is the low voltage, not the fact they are quad-core.
It would still be odd (to say the least) that you didn't run a single benchmark on a Barcelona system, but at least the article's title wouldn't be so blatantly deceptive.
Justin Case - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkI would rather have an article called "quad core coming to play" that actually tests quad-core CPUs from both major manufacturers, and not quad core from one versus dual-core from the other. This article would have made perfect sense one week after Intel's quad-core Xeons were launched. Not one week after Barcelona was launched.
As other have pointe out, this article is obsolete on arrival. People choosing between dual-core Opterons and quad-core Xeons have made their decision a long time ago. Anyone who still hasn't is obviously waiting for quad-core Opteron numbers.
If three days (actually seven, but let's pretend your Barcelona systems were busy 24/7 during the first four) weren't enough to run a single "performance-per-watt" server benchmark on both systems (or on a dual-core vs. quad-core Opteron), and present a comparison, then maybe it would have made more sense to wait another day or two, and release a relevant article instead of one that looks more like a (bad) Intel PR exercise, timed just to coincide with the lanuch of faster CPUs from the competition.
Griswold - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkFunny link to the "Intel Resource Center" at the end of the article. Could also just call it the "AnandTech Intel Filter sponsored by Intel" for it only presents articles related to Intel.
No, I'm not complaining. Just pointing out something mildly amusing, because I havent seen such sponsoring yet (nor did I really expect AT to accept it). Reply
Goty - Thursday, September 13, 2007 - linkSince it appears that AMD made good on its work to deliver Barcelona chips that don't consume any more power than their dual-core Opteron counterparts, I'm thinking that Intel is either going to have to make some significant speed improvements with Harpertown or lower the power consumed by the platform somewhat to beat AMD in the performance/watt category. The move to 45nm will certainly help in that area (barring another Prescott SNAFU), but it's still going to be interesting. Reply
cmdrdredd - Thursday, September 13, 2007 - linkPerformance per watt? Why do people keep saying that...to most people that really matters little in the grand picture. They want the best performance at a certain pricepoint. Who counts wattage when making a choice in CPU or any type of hardware not including a PSU. If one is faster at a certain price you're ready to pay then that's the one you'll get. Performance per watt is something people say when their choice is slower. Reply
smitty3268 - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkYou're right that people with a couple servers running don't really care too much, unless it's extremely bad like Prescott was. However, there is a reason that both Intel and AMD have been hyping efficiency and coming out with special low-power products. It's because the data centers that are trying to cram 200 computers into a single room without overloading the buildings power system can get more computing power given their limited resources. For this market price almost doesn't matter, as it costs much more to get a new building then it does to pay more to get lower power efficient cpus. Reply
Goty - Thursday, September 13, 2007 - linkEverything you're saying is pretty much true... until you actually start talking about the market sectors these parts are aimed at.
You have to get out of your tiny little mindset that all new product releases are aimed at enthusiasts and consider that there is more than one market out there.
In the server and HPC spaces, performance per watt is very important because lower power consumption allows for greater density (in most cases). Who cares if one architecture is 15% faster per-core-per-clock when I can fit 25% more of the slower architecture into the same power and space envelope? Reply
mattsaccount - Thursday, September 13, 2007 - link"What, no Barcelona?" Reply
Frags - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkBarcelona is being shipped to OEMs and is not available to customers regardless of what AMD says. Are you suprised that there is no Barcelona Benchmarks? There hasn't been any for months and even weeks before the launch. AMD is the only one to blame for no 3rd party benchmarks as they don't offer press kits ahead of time for 3rd party testing. If they have, it's a rarity. For now it's back to the AMD slideshows. Reply
Proteusza - Friday, September 14, 2007 - link
If there was ever any doubt that Intel made a bad decision not going true quad-core, it should be clear with numbers like these that their decision was sound and is paying off. Quad-core processors may not be faster in every situation, but in heavily threaded CPU intensive environments the extra CPU cores are easily able to make up for any penalties associated with the dual-die packaging.
Their decision was sound from a business point of view. Native quad core is difficult, it costs a lot. AMD was months late to market with their quad core, most likely in part due to it.
Yet, with AMD's native quad core CPU already out, I fail to see why you say that Intel decision was the right one. Had you posted this article a month ago, yes I would have agreed that Intel's quad cores were running rings around AMD, and despite their higher power efficiency in some cases, Intel was winning over all, especially in higher loads. But now, the situation is different - AMD has their own native quad core, which in all likelihood is more energy efficient than the Intel. Thus, your conclusion isnt valid - Intel's choice was right at the time, because AMD could not compete, but now they can, and now its quad core vs quad core, and the fact that AMD's quad core is a single die gives it a small but significant advantage.
Why did you not benchmark the Barcelona chip? I'm aware its not really available in volume right now, but... Reply
coolme - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkIntel having quad-core before AMD did give them the upper hand, because native quad-core as it turns out, only gave a small advantage to AMD. Although it doesn't seem like AMD is winning this race with barcelona, they need to stop their stubborness and accept the fact that MXM design is the way to go and start pumping out octa-cores before intel does. It's the only way amd can regain their crown. I mean the fact that native quad-core means low yields is already costing them millions, they need to accept the fact that MXM is a more efficient solution for making processors. Reply
coolme - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linksorry, I meant MCM. Reply
Frags - Saturday, September 15, 2007 - linkAMD has had ample time to scale their processor to a winning choice. MCM was the smartest choice as Intel was bringing in money over the year as AMD showed no competition. Even though Barcelona is still coming (Don't act like it's here already.) AMD is still losing money.
Even AMD said themselves they wish they had come out with an MCM design with Intel. Unfortunately since they are behind on processor technology it wouldn't have been feasible.
Even you have said "small, but significant advantage" in other words an advantage that is way too late because they took the long route to revenue. With such a large die size, I can see that yields will still remain low til Intel comes out with definitive competitive beast in very high yields and wide avaiablity. So from a business point of view, AMD is failing. If AMD cannot cut Intels technology lead by half a year, we will continue to see this trend til there is no more AMD.
Justin Case - Sunday, September 16, 2007 - linkIntel's manufacturing lead has been pretty much constant for a decade (if anything, the gap is slightly smaller now).
AMD has a much bigger market share today than they did in the K7 (and K6, etc.) days. Add the fact that AMD now has some of the best GPUs in the market, a lot of very important patents, an excellent team of engineers and deals with most top OEMs (all things they didn't have back then), and it's pretty obvious that news of AMD's death are greatly exaggerated.
The problem with AMD is they're trying to grow too fast. To sustain their current growth rate, they're going to have to start turning in a profit very soon (as in under 5 months), which is not very likely.
If AMD manages to ramp Barcelona to, say, 2.6 GHz in volume until the end of the year (which is not impossible; the issue is related to a respin, not progressive improvement), then the risks they've been taking probably will pay off. Otherwise they'll be forced to slow down and compete based on price, at least until Bulldozer is ready. Their latest GPUs are looking pretty good, too, so they might be able to get by on profits from the ATI division even if Barcelona takes longer to ramp (as I suspect it will).
In any case, this idea that some people seem to have that AMD is "ruined" and "about to disappear" is complete nonsense. They're in a much better position today than they were in 2002, and they didn't disappear in 2002, either.
P.S. - A dual-die (2+2) CPU would have been perfectly feasible (just slap a second core on the same package, connected by HT, and treat is as a RAM-less CPU one hop away), and AMD would have easily been able to release it before Intel. It was an executive decision not to do so, and one that I'm sure they regret. The market for quad-core CPUs is small but pretty lucrative. They were probably hoping to have Barcelona out ahead of schedule, and instead it got delayed (hardly something new, chez AMD). On the other hand, I'm sure they're glad they did not go with FB-DIMM (despite having licensed the patents and planned to support it with Barcelona).
Brunnis - Friday, September 14, 2007 - link
Yet, with AMD's native quad core CPU already out, I fail to see why you say that Intel decision was the right one. Had you posted this article a month ago, yes I would have agreed that Intel's quad cores were running rings around AMD, and despite their higher power efficiency in some cases, Intel was winning over all, especially in higher loads. But now, the situation is different - AMD has their own native quad core, which in all likelihood is more energy efficient than the Intel. Thus, your conclusion isnt valid - Intel's choice was right at the time, because AMD could not compete, but now they can, and now its quad core vs quad core, and the fact that AMD's quad core is a single die gives it a small but significant advantage.
That's not the point. The point is that Intel went with an MCM design and was therefore able to sell quads for almost a year before AMD could provide any competition. Intel made a good decision and just because AMD finally have something to compete with, doesn't make that decision go from good to bad in the blink of an eye. It almost seems as if you believe the tested Intel quad core is a new product. It's not, it's still the old Clovertown core, although it's based on the newer G stepping. Reply
Proteusza - Friday, September 14, 2007 - linkI think thats exactly the point. yes Intel had the overrall performance lead for over a year with their Core 2 architecture.
And even now, they hold the top spot until Barcelona scales to higher clocks.
but, in a performance per watt race, they no longer hold the top spot because they no longer have the only quad core cpu.
Saying that Intel made the right decision in rushing a quad core to market is true. But it only holds true while AMD doesnt have its own quad core. When AMD does, it doesnt really matter who came first - it matters who offers better performance per watt.
Therefore, now that AMD has quad core chips out, it doesnt matter what Intel did to get theirs out first, it matters which is the best chip.. The Radeon X1950 has been out for longer than the 8800 GTS, does taht mean it is a better graphics card? Reply
Pull Up Banners - Wednesday, May 04, 2011 - linkI am sure Anandtech know very well about these banners and hopefull will avoid all the advertising banners.
<a href="ttp://www.ultimatebanners.co.uk/pull-up-banners.htm">Pull Up Banners</a> Reply


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