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IDF 2009 - World's First Larrabee Demo, More Clarkdale, Gulftownby Anand Lal Shimpi on 9/22/2009 12:00 AM EST
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wumpus - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkLook closely at some of those slides. See that "number of instructions" chart? It goes down to 1971 or so (presumably the 4004).
Question: Does this chart include BiiN (billions invested in nothing?), how about the 432? You didn't think the latest 860 was the only intel chip by that name did you (they had a failed RISC architecture by that name as well)? Howabout the not-so-recent and hardly-mourned Itanic? They also seem to leave out the latest huge improvement, AMD64, completely.
ProDigit - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkLol @ Nehalem @ 1000nm! It looks like a mobo! Reply
haukionkannel - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkWell this the chip that makes real harm to AMD. It can be really cheap to produce and offer anough speed to allmost everyone. So it will compete directly with new AMD Athlons.
Interesting chip to budged range in anyway. Just hope that AMD gets their new production faclilities runnig sooner than later. I really hate monopolies, even they make exelent products...
vol7ron - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkAlready said it once, will say it again: desktop cores are about maxed out, with regards to the need. The gains in speed are almost negligible in the fact that, yes it's faster, but it's not as big as a deal any more. Core2 revolutionized things.
I will like to see a 50 core, 20GB cache CPU running on 100Watts. When I can get that in my home system, I'll be happy (and it's just around the bend).
I'm more excited about getting USB 3.0 and SATA 3.0 on motherboards. I'd also be just as excited if Intel put some of that nanotech towards the DRAM and more efforts towards SSDs. How about a processor that is closer to the southbridge, maybe one that integrates with an SSD. I want to see Intel revolutionize the internals as a whole, not just parts of the whole. Another example that this could be done by removing the need for RAM. Reply
the zorro - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linki think we have more chance to see the sasquatch than the larrabee.
what a failure.
i think many intel fanboys will get old before they can see larrabee.
not that i care. Reply
Eeqmcsq - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkIf you didn't care, why did you mention it? Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkWhat confuses me is why anyone would want to use x86 for anything, unless they had to.
It's nuts. It was considered a lousy chipset when the 8086 was new. Why are they still introducing new products, in a market where x86 isn't necessary? It's weird. Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkI meant, a lousy instruction set.
I'm really surprised Intel wanted this. It has to put them at a disadvantage compared to AMD and NVIDIA, not that NVIDIA will matter too much longer. Reply
TinyTeeth - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linklol, how exactly is Intel at a disadvantage to AMD? The only reason AMD still exists is because Intel doesn't want the anti-trust hassle they would have if they dominated the market completely. Reply
TA152H - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkDo you understand the word 'context'?
x86 is a lousy instruction set. For Intel to base a GPU on it, when their competitors are using instruction sets better suited for the task, puts them at a disadvantage.
It's why Atom can't compete in a lot of markets. The x86 instruction set is hideous, and you can't really execute it well directly. The original Pentium actually did, and they say this is based on the Pentium, so they're apparently not de-coupling it.
Where compatibility is king, you'd have no choice, but where it's not very important, you've got to be wondering why Intel went down this road. It's definitely going to put them at a disadvantage against ATI and NVIDIA. I don't know how the compatibility is going to offset that. I guess we'll see. Reply
ggathagan - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI think the went down this road because it's the one they know.
They're a CPU company, so they're trying to make a GPU with that filter in place.
I agree that it's dumb, but once we moved into the realm of programmable GPU's it was inevitable that they would take this approach.
Intel has a long history of trying to steer all processes toward the CPU (MMX,SSE,SSE2, etc.).They've always been jealous of their "territory".
Their overall goal remains integrating everything into the CPU.
NVIDIA and ATI are taking the opposite approach and trying to steer functions that have traditionally been CPU-based toward the GPU, to take advantage of that parallel processing.
They're at an advantage because all they have to do is offload processes that are currently tying up CPU time to their GPU's and they can call it a win.
Since they're able to hand-pick the processes that can take the most advantage of the GPU's approach to processing, they have a much easier time of it.
Like I said, Intel *is* dumb for taking this approach, but it's right in line with their philosophy.
If they can produce a somewhat decent level of performance in Larrabee, that ends up being a proof-of-concept that the CPU can replace a GPU.
james jwb - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkLarrabee is a failure? Don't you mean "larrabee is brain-damaged?"
Still, you do make me laugh with your posts... :) Reply
Spathi - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkI love playing cards with people like you. Reply
mczak - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkThis picture is pretty interesting, looks exactly the same as lynnfield to me. It would mean lynnfield in fact also has 3 memory controllers on die, but 1 disabled (something I speculated already about, since if you compare lynnfield and bloomfield die shots the memory controller looks exactly the same). Plus a unused QPI link. Reply
vailr - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkAny info on future chipsets ?
And: any chance Intel will be offering a revised 32nm socket775 CPU ?
I'm doubting they will, but thought I'd ask anyway.
Or: even just a revised chipset for either socket775 or for socket1156, that includes onboard USB 3.0 & SATA 3.0 (6 Gb SATA) controller.
And: did they specifically state whether there'd be a future multi-core 32nm socket1156 (non-IGP) CPU usable with the current P55 motherboards?
Also: any info on possible UEFI implementation by Apple, that might then allow using unmodified "generic" PC video cards in (future) Mac Pro's ?
http://www.uefi.org/about/">http://www.uefi.org/about/ Reply
ilkhan - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - link"Larrabee rendered that image above using raytracing, it's not running anywhere near full performance"
Does that mean larrabee isn't running at its peak to render the scene or that the game is running at low FPS? Reply
Spathi - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkThey might mean it is running at 1000MHz instead of 2000 and/or 24cores instead or 48.
Raytracing requires a lot more performance than rasterization. An Intel staff member on a blog years ago said the Larrabee was not intended to be a raytracing GPU, it is just that is can perform pretty well as one. Other GPU's would get about 1-2 fps or something unless they cheat, then they may get 5 fps. 99% of games will still use rasterization for a long while as it is faster.
I am getting one slow or not, bugs or not ;oP. Intel tend to be pretty good at removing most hardware bugs you would ever see though. The rumor is most of the bugs are ironed out now. Reply
jigglywiggly - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkI want 6 cores + 6 threads NOW. Reply
Eeqmcsq - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkMeeee tooooo! And I want it for $100. Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkYou can get 8 cores and 16 threads - just get a dual processor configuration. Since the real Nehalems use QPI, you're not bottlenecked like you were with the previous generation.
But, what do you need this for? I thought I had pretty demanding needs, and I really don't know how I could possibly use all that. If you have a compute farm, or something, yes, but for home? You must be building a nuclear bomb or something. Reply
GourdFreeMan - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkNeed? Ha! Ha! How does need enter into the equation? Some people build cars as a hobby, others, like me, build computers. Hell, John Carmack builds rockets! Does John Carmack *need* a rocket?
I built multi-socket systems for my own personal use for two hardware generations after I had a legitimate use for them. I would probably still be doing so, if Intel hadn't adopted their "Tick-Tock" strategy... Reply
GourdFreeMan - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkBeen there. Done that. Didn't like the $4K price tag. Won't be doing it again with my own money so long as architectural changes are right around the corner. Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkOne of my thermodynamics professors in college (~2000) claimed to have a 24-system cluster installed in his garage, dunno if he just liked doing things on his own or what. Reply
GourdFreeMan - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkSounds plausible. A hobby project involving molecular simulation was one of my self-justifications for purchasing my first dual socket system as a grad student. CUDA is probably more cost efficient for that sort of thing today... Reply
Casper42 - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkDoes Gulftown bring any new features/instructions or is it purely a 32nm 6 core version of the existing 1366 Chips?
For instance, might we see an official memory clock increase with Gulftown to get us up to 1333 or perhaps even 1600?
Thanks for the updates Anand! Reply
Apahutec - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkAES-NI instruction set
might be useful for cryptography, perhaps security (digital signature verification on binaries, SSL?) Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkDo you really care about official support for something better than PC 1066? It works perfectly anyway.
I'd like to see them get the power use of the x58 down to a practical level. I don't expect it to reach Lynnfield levels of power use, since it doesn't have so many compromises, but, they need to move the chipset to 45nm to realize some power savings so it's not SO bad as it is now.
Jasper looks like a real killer. The six core processors aren't going to really matter much in the market. It's going to be expensive, and a niche product. The Jasper will probably really do well, though.
When they integrate graphics into the platform, it will kill the fairly useless Lynnfield, and probably become a VERY successful product. I think they should have held off on the Lynnfield, and just introduced this product. I think the Lynnfield just increases market confusion, but once they add the graphics core to it, I think people will really go for it. Reply
GourdFreeMan - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkWe're enthusiasts! We are precisely the "niche" that Gulftown targets. Fewer cores and greater levels of integration do not interest us, unless the integration leads to increased performance. Frankly, only six cores is a bit of a disappointment at 32nm. We would rather have had eight. When shopping for a primary system power efficiency only interests us in so far as it allows greater sustained performance, and allows the system to run cool when "idle" (i.e. doing mundane tasks like web browsing or watching videos[1]). When we put on our IT hats our choices may be different, but that doesn't reflect our passion for hardware that sends us to sites like Anandtech in the first place.
When the OP asks whether Intel will officially support PC 1066, he is indirectly asking whether the memory controller has improved to support even higher bandwidths than Nehalem. Since the processor is not out in the wild he can't directly ask that question. (It is always possible that the officially supported RAM speeds might increases without influencing stable overclocked speeds, though.)
Footnote [1]: Compared to the amount of processing power we can bring to bear, it is an idle task for us. Reply
TA152H - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkFor me, stuff like this is more like reading about a Porsche. It's fun to read about, but it's not something I would realistically consider.
You'd really pay $1000 for a processor? These days, with obsolescence being so rapid, it doesn't make a lot of sense for home use, and you'd find it difficult to see the difference.
It's changed a lot. For example, even in 1987, IBM released an 8086 (PS/2 Model 30). The chip was created 1978. To put that in perspective, that would be like releasing a 1 GHz Pentium III now. Then again, maybe it's not so different with the Atom.
I personally prefer ILP, to TLP, and would prefer two killer cores to six slower clocked ones. But, certainly, they both have their uses.
The Bloomfield can easily handle memory at higher clock speeds than 1066. Intel could tomorrow say it handles 1333 MHz memory, with zero change to the processor. I don't think it's very meaningful. Reply
GourdFreeMan - Thursday, September 24, 2009 - linkNo, but I would pay $300-$400 for the lowest clocked Gulftown. If I needed to I could then overclock it beyond the stock specs of $1000 version... though I would probably leave it at stock clocks for stability and longevity reasons most of the time. See my comments later in this thread about multi-socket systems, and how rapid architectural improvements have changed my spending habits.
There is no reason why ILP and TLP cannot be improved in parallel, pardon the pun. Clock speeds, however, have hit a brick wall. Software desperately needs to go parallel, and there is only so much parallelism in the instruction stream that can be obtained without intentionally redesigning to make your software overtly parallel.
Benchmarks tend to agree with your assertion that memory speeds aren't a pressing issue at current clocks, with current architectural designs, and with existing desktop software. In the server space there are already Xeons with official support for DDR1333, and I am sure most if not all desktop Nehalems can have their memory controller overclocked to utilize DDR3 speeds well in excess of 1333 MHz. I agree it is a non-issue. However, I also understand the OP's desire to know if there are any improvements to Gulftown beyond the number of cores. The answer to which is that there are eleven new instructions added to the Westmere instruction set -- six for doing AES and five carry-less multiplication instructions. Reply
CrimsonFury - Thursday, October 08, 2009 - linkI doubt you will see a Gulftown in the $300-$400 range. The cheapest one is expected to launch at $1,000. Gulftown is mainly designed as DP server chip that they happen to be offering as a high end desktop part as well. Maybe the gen after gulftown when they shrink to 22nm you could see that sort of pricing, or if Intel releas a 4 core 8 thread 32nm part later on. Reply
goinginstyle - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkTA152H,
When is your next copy and paste article going to be printed at Toms? Just wondering what kind of insight you will be offering since your comments around here continued to be "brain damaged". By the way, still waiting on your article comparing the 920 to the 860 to prove all your statements. Since all of the websites disagree with you, I am guessing it is hard to copy and paste information to support your lost cause.
TA152H - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkYou know, for a loser like you to be casting insults, is almost amusing. Almost, because you're too stupid to be witty.
I'll be working on an article on the original IBM PC when I have time. With the different technologies, market positioning, good/bad, things borrowed, etc... when I have time. Thanks for asking. If you want, I can send you an advanced, signed, copy, since you are a fan.
It does take soooooo much time. And, your idiot remarks about copy and paste just show what a hypocrite you are. Show an example. In reality, I rewrote those pages so many times, I was almost afraid to reread them for fear I would spend another hour or two getting it just right. I wish I had the talent where I could write it once and get it write, but I didn't even attempt it. Finally, when I was finally relatively happy with the content and style, they edited it and dummied it down so people like you could understand the vocabulary used. If you want me to put up the original, just let me know and I'll send you a link. You are a fan, after all, so, for you, I will.
Actually, I am very satisfied with Anand's tests showing how much faster, 3.5%, the Bloomfield is. Well, I'm not really, since he had the uncore on the Bloomfield faster. I don't know why these guys don't get it right, it's like they don't understand you have to get things precisely accurate, instead of saying it doesn't matter much. That's my frustration.
If they want to send me the equipment, I'll be happy to test it for them. I swear I'll send the stuff back too. Really, I will. Well, I will for the Lynnfield. The Bloomfields, well, I do have a large cat, and occassionally some raccoons visit the house, and I can't be responsible if the raccoons somehow take the Bloomfields. Naturally, even they have the sense not to want the brain-damaged Lynnfields, so I'm not so worried about them. Reply
Lifted - Thursday, September 24, 2009 - linkDoesn't surprise me they post articles from you at TH. So far, in 2 posts, you've managed to spew out such inane tripe as
"limitations, of which you probably have many."
"You're too stupid"
"jackasses like you"
"for a loser like you"
"you're too stupid"
"your idiot remarks"
Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously? Reply
FATCamaro - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkWhy the Lynnfield hate. Get a grip... I'd like a 2 core 4 thread machine that has a GPU on package for sure. Reply
wumpus - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkThe hate is having to pay a premium for graphics that suck. Intel has been claiming to take over graphics since before 3dfx departed from the seen. The idea of not only losing a core or two, but losing it to an Intel GPU will make all but the most committed fanboys run to AMD (or possibly current i7's and nvidia).
On the other hand, Intel might realize this (actually, I assume most of them do. The question is what happens to the poor saps who says the emperor has no clothes). If most home Dells come with some sort of Larabee thrown in, if no more than a few extra x86 cores, this will allow software to be written for the least common denominator being able to run plenty of (low power) threads. Eventually, this will make a big difference.
Just don't expect to ever use that GPU (and get anything but "minimum suggested hardware" preformance).
TA152H - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkThe same reason the market seems to hate it. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of the market.
I don't hate it, I just don't think it's a useful product in a lot of instances.
There are sites like this that built it up a lot, and then didn't want to admit they were wrong, but, so far, it's not doing so well. Why would it?
I think the technology will really take off though, when they can integrate the graphics. The brain-damaged design right now seems to be because it's just an interim chip. Probably even Intel knew it sucked, and wouldn't have much impact, but when they get the video on it, everything will change. The inferior PCIe implementation all of the sudden stops being bad, since you have video on board. The price goes down a lot, power use, already good, goes down a lot (considering you need a discrete card now), and all of the sudden you have an inexpensive, low power, system with outrageous performance in that segment.
It's like looking at Florida in College Football. They're great for a college team, but if they play in the pros, they'd be abused. As soon as the Lynnfield, or really what follows it, finds its proper place as a low cost, low power system (Celeron), it's going to be extremely competitive, and I think almost unavoidable for a lot of the market. As it is, it's just not a useful platform for a lot of people. Anyone with brains will get a 920 and overclock it, and get better performance, better flexibility, and better upgradeability. Anyone without any will not know that the Lynnfield is faster than the Athlon, and will not want to pay as much for a 2.66 GHz chip when they can get a 3.2 GHz chip from AMD for the same price.
Yes, people who know more will understand, but they are going to get Bloomfield. So, where is the market? The i5 750, sure, it's a nice price point, and a decent processor. But, really, it's not a big segment. Once they get onboard video, I think it's going to make Core 2 instantly obsolete, and, because it's 32nm, and they are only using one chip for the chipset, they probably can sell it inexpensively.
So, yes, I think Lynnfield is basically crap. I think it's an interim chip without much use as it is, at the price it is (except for some i5 750). But, I think the next interation that use this technology and adds video, will address a large segment very well. But, that's the future. For the present, I don't think Lynnfield really matters much. I think AMD outdid them with the $99 quad Athlon. Reply
tim851 - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkHow do you know that the market hates it? Lynnfield has only been available for 2 weeks. You sure seem to be feeling the need of defending your 920 purchase. Yes, you paid a couple of bucks more for the same performance, just get over it.
And I wouldn't call AMD's 99$ quad-core "outdoing" anybody. What they are doing is 1) ruin themselves some more and 2) kill their price performance for years to come. I know they don't have options, but they're right back where they were with the last of the K6's - they're the buy-em-if-you-need-it-cheap company. Reply
TA152H - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkI don't have an i7 920. I wish I did.
Most people that talk like you are viewing the world through their own limitations, of which you probably have many. I don't have to rationalize anything I do, and don't have a bias one way or another. I just like the truth, and what's real to be said.
So, don't be patronizing. You're too stupid, and you're wrong. I am interested in technology, for the sake of technology, and it irritates me when sites like this don't really tell it like it really is, and instead impart a bias on it. The worst part is, jackasses like you eat it up without question.
I disagree with you on your assessment of AMD. Really, you don't like to think much beyond the superficial, and that's your main problem. AMD was in a much better situation with the K6 line, since it used much less power, was much smaller, and could be sold much cheaper. It was in some ways superior to the Katmai, because of this, and also, the K6-III was actually faster, clock normalized, than the Katmai on 16-bit integer code.
The present AMD processors flat out suck. They are the same size, consume more power, and perform miserably. I guess one plus though is, the K6 platform, Super 7, was horrible, with the MVP3 being the most stable chipset. The ALI was dreadful, the MVP3 still bad. Now, they have a nice platform, but the processors are dreadful. From that perspective, I think the Athlon was a very, very important and excellent decision by AMD.
I'm inclined to agree with your sentiment that AMD better get their design competitive again, or the other stuff like platform and outmaneuvering Intel will not hold out forever. But, given what they have, and can realistically do in the near term, I think it's a very, very smart move.
Lynnfield confuses the market. I think they would have been better off just increasing clock speeds the Core 2 line. They are cheaper to make, have an IGP, and are mature platform. Lynnfield would have made a lot of sense on 32nm.
You're right, two weeks isn't a lot, but when you already suspected a product wouldn't sell, and then it doesn't, it's a pretty strong confirmation. It's like running an experiment you already know the results of.
I don't think the technology is all bad, I think it's positioned wrong. Apparently, so does the market. Intel may have thought they could fool people by lobotomizing the platform, but, really, no one is fooled. When they get rid of the Core 2, and this becomes their low-end platform, it's going to be a killer in that segment. Again, I think it's just positioned wrong, for now, and will settle in when they put the video on it, and the costs come down. Reply
Lifted - Thursday, September 24, 2009 - linkI stopped reading this drivel after the first 2 paragraphs. You sound like a teenager trying playing on his xbox.
"limitations, of which you probably have many."
"You're too stupid"
"jackasses like you"
Grow the f@ck up. Reply
Griswold - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkStop trying to "think". It doesnt seem to work well. Reply
chrnochime - Tuesday, September 22, 2009 - linkWhat IS that URL of your website anyway? Curious to see how much better your site actually is compared to Anand's.
And if you can't show some benchmarks and white paper(NOT what you wrote) to back up what you're saying, like the old saying goes...
hyvonen - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkYou know, for a long time I thought TA152H was just an Intel-hating troll, but I think I have just changed my mind. Pretty much everything he says makes sense, even down to the $99 Athlon.
Although I have to disagree that Lynnfield was completely pointless; it was a stop-gap measure, trying to slow down the Phenom revolution with a much cheaper platform price than what Bloomfield could ever reach. Performance is high enough to warrant a premium - I still can't understand how AMD can make any money selling their $99 quad-core.
But yeah, mainstream will wait for Clarkdale.
chrnochime - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkHe just choose to avoid/ignore my question, and why is that anyway?
He's not an Intel hating troll, his statements just slam Lynnfield and even Gulftown. What kind of a statement is this "you're building a nuclear bomb?" I find that anyone who's out of college and mature mentally don't post that kind of non-sense, even jokingly.
Yet another poster just like snakeoil. Reply
mtoma - Wednesday, September 23, 2009 - linkLynnfield it's a good processor for those who want anything than Core2Duo - Core2Quad (the price is similar, anyway), assuming they are Intel fans (me included!).
BUT: I have to say it's a total crap from Intel to require another processor socket. That's a big setback, I think. Reply


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Antec Eleven Hundred: The P280's Gloves Come Offby Dustin Sklavos on 4/9/2012 12:00 AM EST
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- Antec
- Cases/Cooling/PSUs
- mid-tower
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Stahn Aileron - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkWould it be too much to ask that you actually place the ambient tempurature during testing somewhere on the graphs themselves so we have a readily accessible reference point right there on the graphs? It would also work as a reminder to readers what the conditions are. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkThe ambient temperature is going to vary from test system to test system, that's why I switched to listing the delta. Reply
Rick83 - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkYou did check, that the delta is a constant over ambient temperature though, did you? It may not be for every case. Also, of course, fan speeds will be impacted by ambient/internal temperature.
If you can, you should probably run two series of tests, one in the morning and one in the evening, and then either average that or use one measurement, but at least comment the other. At least for noise, we need ambient temperature, as otherwise that value is completely without base for comparisons. Reply
kandrtech - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkThose familiar with thermodynamics, and the equations utilized, would agree that the delta approach is the best. Variances of a few (or 10) degrees on ambient will not appreciably change the delta results. By appreciably, I mean you'll see differences out to one or more decimal places . . . . Reply
niva - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkAre you talking 10 deg C or F?
Ideally your ambient temperature should be somewhere in the +/- 5 deg of 70 deg F. These are the normal temperatures most households are kept at. There may be a significant difference between the noise produced by components at 65 deg F, and someone's house which may be normally kept at 85 deg during the summer daytime because of lack of AC?
And I'm talking about idle situation here...
The point was valid, just include the temperature in your test data. Reply
bobbozzo - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkThe article describing their new methodology for case testing seems to indicate that ambient temps are maintained between 71-74F.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5709/introducing-our... Reply
ShieTar - Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - linkBut those familiar with modern PC design are aware that fan-control systems generally try to achieve a constant CPU/GPU-temperature. Thus when you raise the ambient temperature to somewhat higher levels, CPU/GPU fans tend to speed up, giving you lower Delta-T values at increased noise.
Thus it is important to still run these tests at comparable ambient temperatures, and if this is indeed checked at each test, it should be no problem to change the title of the temperature graph to read "Delta over ambient at 20+/-2°C". Or whichever is the range that is controlled and accepted by the tester. Reply
O8h7w - Saturday, April 14, 2012 - linkI feel perfectly good about showing the temperature as delta above ambient instead of absolute temperature. But it seems many readers would like to see the ambient temperature at the time of testing reported as well, and I have to agree.
The way of doing this that would make perfect sense in the graphs is to modify the labels to look like this:
Antec 1100
@ 23°C ambient Reply
Lucian2244 - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkGood review, i was wondering how it would look with a mATX in there.
Is it just me or their cases get uglier and uglier ? Reply
Iketh - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkIt's not you... this case is ugly... AND stupid...
Enough with filterless side vents already! Why even have side vents? That's a damn 80's design, speaking figuratively... Reply
Sabresiberian - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkUh, if you don't get why the side vents are there, YOU are the one that's stupid, not Antec. Reply
Iketh - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkno no no... if you are still using side vents, YOU are stupid Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkYay for intelligent arguments!
The reason some people like side vents is that if you have two GPUs, especially on a motherboard where they're only two slots apart (e.g. a "GPU sandwich"), putting a couple fans right above the GPUs can be very helpful for temperatures. From a noise and dust standpoint, though, it's not a good thing and aesthetically some will dislike panels as well. Reply
Sabresiberian - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkIt''s you, the case isn't ugly at all to me.
Some people think their concept of beauty in a case should rule over every case a company makes, but, hey, there's a reason that Antec makes so many different types of cases (as well as other manufacturers).
;) Reply
dtolios - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkWhat's the point of getting a large or mid-expensive range case to combo with mATX again? I don't understand why "enthusiast" oriented cases should be tested using an mATX mobo the first place....ofc it can do mATX and one GPU...big deal...can it do 2x large GPUs and full ATX good enough is always a WAY more valid question - both for an organizational and thermal performance standpoint.
Guess it is just me... Reply
ClockHound - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkWould it be too much to ask for proof reading before publishing?
"If you'll let me beat this dead horse one last time, I'm keen to point out what the Antec Eleven Hundred is that the Antec P280 isn't: a cheaper P280."
I'm keen to understand what you meant. Does this mean that the P280 isn't a cheap P280 or did you mean that the Eleven Hundred isn't a cheap P280? And how did the Three Hundred get into the review text? It's in the text of the overclock page.
I do agree the delta is the better number to display....but it does beg the question with this new test system, why you can't test in a temperature-controlled environment? Why not test with different ambient temps, like room temperature and a 'hot' room temperature?
Thanks for the review. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkReviews do get proofed most of the time (by me for Dustin's reviews), but I try to take a hands off approach and I thought initially he was trying to say something else. I've fixed that. Anyway, while you're happily flogging us for minor typos, you might want to research what it means to "beg the question". ;-)
As for the temperature controlled testing environment, it would be awesome to have such equipment, but we don't. Environmentally regulated test environments don't come cheap, and they also pose a different problem: 70F ambient without a lot of airflow from the AC isn't the same as 70F with an AC moving quite a bit of air. The difference may not be that large, but I'd bet it would be measurable. Reply
Sabresiberian - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkI get trying to keep the quality of Anandtech high, and I think that pointing out errors in communication is appropriate, but you would make a better point by making a post that is free of spelling, grammar and usage errors itself.
;) Reply
kevith - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkWhy don't you ever bother to experiment a bit with different numbers and placement of fans? In this case, it would have been VERY interesting to know, what impact that fan behind the motherboard has on temps. AND noise, since it's tugged away far from the user. And there's a lot of other empty fan placements, that, filled up with fans might change the performance and accoustics. But I guess I'l have to buy the case to find out. (And what's the purpose of reading reviews then...?)
You'l probably say, that writing a review takes a lot of time, even without digging deeper into fans, their numbers and placement. But why use all that time, and then in the end the review is only half? Who wants to do or read something, that's ALMOST great? The vast majority of people, that would consider buying this case - and other hi-end cases - will definitely want to experiment.
Aand then you spend a lot of time comparing the P280 and the 1100. Except for readings...!? Why don't you show the figures of the P280 in the graphs?
And I don't think you understood Stahn Aileron's question: We all know, why you changed to showing Delta over ambient, but please let us know what the ambient is, so we know how hot the thing is. Reply
PhoenixEnigma - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkIf you read the review, it's noted that the ambient temperature was about 23C for these tests. The 550D was apparently tested in a room about a degree cooler.
Of course, it would make more sense for the reader to use their own ambient temperature - that's the advantege to having the delta and not the final number, it's easier to adjust for your conditions. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Monday, April 09, 2012 - link"Why didn't you place the fans here? Why didn't you do x/y/z?"
It's a can of worms that oftentimes isn't worth opening. There are so many different fan configurations many of these cases are capable of that invariably SOMEONE is going to ask for/gripe that the configuration they would've used wasn't tested. It's a slippery slope. From there you also have to ask "what kind of fans." Are we going to use SilverStone APs? What about a pair of Scythes? Or just some regular off the shelf 120mm fans? There's too much variance; simply put it's much more practical to test an enclosure in its stock configuration and then speculate on its potential.
The P280's readings can't be shown in the graphs because they pre-date the current testbed. I can't keep stacks of enclosures on hand just so I can go and retest them later, it's not like when I did the review of the P280 I thought to myself "better keep this around in case I decide to change how we test cases."
And finally, telling you what the ambient temperature is will just tell you how hot the components and case are in my apartment at the time I tested it, not how hot they will be or how efficiently the case will actually remove heat. I don't make it a point to specify exactly what the ambient temperature was because it ultimately isn't relevant to the comparative results; the ambient actually varies even between test runs as the room heats or cools depending on air conditioning, weather, how much heat the testbed spews out, etc. Right now my apartment's been pretty consistently between 22.5C and 24C, but when summer comes that's going to go up.
This is something Anand was concerned about when I discussed these revised procedures with him, that the data wouldn't read as well. But I'm sorry, I'd rather be producing accurate, useful data than something that just reads better. If you have to ask why I'm not making the ambient temperatures evident in the charts, you don't understand why we made the switch. Reply
Iketh - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkI'm sure he was referring to the uniqueness of the mobo fan and not that you're required to test every possible combination... it would seem a no-brainer to me to test what effect this fan has on the system. Reply
Robert in Calgary - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkHello Dustin,
If I restrict myself to just one case, I'm hoping you can bring back the Solo II for testing on the new set-up.
Thanks. Reply
haukionkannel - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkI would very much see p180 compared to p280 in the new test bench. Does easier set up means any functional differences? Reply
Belard - Monday, April 09, 2012 - link"The front bezel of the Eleven Hundred is almost completely ventilated, and that includes the shields for the 5.25" drive bays. It's actually a bit surprising that Antec didn't include any front-mounted intake fans," - I see this in many reviews, about the lack of front cooling fans.
I don't think these are really needed in many cases and the top fans are simply over-kill... (not so much for gaming PCs of course)
If the PSU and a large fan in the back are sucking in AIR from the front, then they will do just fine - as long as there is not over-kill in vents, such as on the sides - as on cheaper non-gaming cases. Adding front fans adds noise, cable mess and cramps the space.
I have the Antec P150 case (5 years old) which is a bit smaller doorless version of the P180. it has a single large fan in the back, running on LOW (3 speed fan). The air filters still get dirty and my CPU and GPU stay cool enough to run. Yes, I can save 2-3C in temp by going to MED setting for the fan... but seriously, most people cannot hear my Q6600, 2 3.5" drives running. Yeah, I'm looking to stick a i5-35xx in there next month or so.
I have an old ATI 4670 card, but I specifically bought the HIS with its dual-slot cooler which does NOT dump heat into the case. Its huge fan runs at a slow RPM, so it too is almost silent.
My previous GeForce 7600GT was a $190 fan-less version (its huge and looks great) because I wanted silence... but I had to run the rear fan on MED because of over-heating of the case... there goes the silence.
So, for low-noise, get a fanless card (non gamers) or a dual-slot that doesn't dump heat all over the inside of your case, making your CPU, memory and drives warmer.
Again, because the single rear fan and the PSU, the case is able to draw in enough air to keep the HDs cool and everything else. Reply
Iketh - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkYou must live in a dust-free environment. Negative case pressure is a magnet for dust in my home. Everything from my optical drive to the case lights to the door hinges gets clogged with dust. Having front fans (with rpms higher than exhaust fans, if any) ensures air enters only through the filters.
While we're on the subject, I'm so SICK of seeing case designs with filterless side vents. That is a 10 year old design. Why in the world are cases still being made this way? You would think AT authors would gripe about this the same way they do laptop keyboards, etc... Reply
Arbie - Monday, April 09, 2012 - link@Iketh - Write to Antec. I did so on that very subject and got a good reception. Reply
Belard - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkI see what you mean, I get a bit of dust around the drives. But that seems to be most cases... From experience, more fans = more noise, more cables, more power, more vibrations. My son's computer gets a bit more dustier than mine on the inside, his case is more generic and has a front fan. its a lose-lose situation.
I don't use the cheap home air-filters either ($1 each), but go with the 3M $18~24 filters.
In one of the offices I do work, it has excellent filtered air. Over the period of a year, almost no dust... not even the huge 6 fan Mozart TX.
I agree with you about the side-vents. They do sell aftermarket fan-size filters. I usually just try to avoid such cases... or simple tape black cardboard or plastic on the inside. Reply
TrackSmart - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkFor mid-range systems, I'm in strong agreement with Belard. If you seal off extraneous side vents, you can get away with a single, top-rear 120mm fan + the PSU, which has it's own fan.
Summary: The top-rear fan exhausts hot air. The front intakes pull in cool, fresh air. And you get nice flow from front to back without side-vent interference.
Yes, you need to dust the inside of your case every 6 months. So what? That's a small price to pay for a quiet, reasonably cool case. Extra front fans made a difference of about 1-2C under load for my case. Not worth the extra noise or cost. Reply
entity279 - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkDustin,
The 1st page table only specifies the available fan mounts. I couldn't find any explicit mention regarding which of the mounts come with pre-installed fans when you buy the case. Reply
jgutz20 - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkEveryone has the best additions/tests for you to run, yet they arent making their own articles, just criticizing others!
Good job on the review, Ohh and you missed a period after that one sentence, please fix it so i can understand what i'm reading Reply
bhima - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkWould it help to take one of these cases that have been tested in the newer config to be tested in the older test set up as well so we have a baseline difference between the two testing methods? Would that help us get a reasonable idea of how the older cases would perform with the new testing methodologies? Reply
Arbie - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkA big top exhaust is great, but it should have been done as 2x120mm as in the Coolermaster CM690. There is far too little choice of 200mm fans, and then you have to rule out all the sleeve bearing models because it's a horizontal mount. Yes, a single big fan is 'better' than two smaller ones in theory, but the market is far from supporting that approach. Reply
cyberguyz - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkI absolutely hate reviews like this. Anand, fire this guy!
Why do jokers like this guy review fill size cases with mATX motherboards? If you review an mATX case, then fine, use an mATX motherboard.
Guys, these are full size cases, designed to hold full sized ATX motherboards. Any jackass can assemble a 'clean' and uncluttered system using any case like this size and an mATX motherboard. Try it using real full ATX motherboards and then tell us how much room you have in there to assemble your rig.
Don't slap in an mATX board, then say "Oh lookie how roomy this case is!!". To do anything else is to do a half-assed case review that is not worth the few minutes of wasted life it takes to read it.
At least he didn't attempt to pass off uber this case is by mounting a mini ITX board in it. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkReading comprehension fail, I suppose? We linked our testing methodology article, but the simple reason for using mATX is that mATX can support just as much performance as most ATX. Now we can compare ATX and mATX cases against each other, rather than having to use two different motherboards. And amazingly enough, you CAN tell how spacious a case is without installing a large motherboard -- though I don't seem to recall "roominess" being mentioned as a selling point here. Reply
Twoboxer - Monday, April 09, 2012 - linkReviewers need to pay more attention to comparisons between negative- and positive-pressure cases. The major benefit to a positive-pressure case does NOT show up in even the most thorough (short-term) review.
A negative-pressure case draws air in from every crack and crevice. These openings cannot be filtered and so inevitably your optical drives, card readers, usb ports, fan blade edges, and cooling coils become clogged with dust.
In a positive-pressure case, each of the intakes can easily be filtered leaving the interior dust free.
I'm not aware of any compelling thermodynamic advantage to a negative-pressure case, either theoretical or practical. There are at least some anecdotal reasons to believe-positive pressure cases have a theoretical advantage in sound dampening.
If that's correct, Reviewers should be helping us all get more positive-pressure case designs by factoring this consideration into their reviews of price/performance. OTOH, if negative-pressure cases do have a thermodynamic advantage, it would be interesting to quantify it in some way.
Because AFAIC, even if a positive-pressure case ran a couple of degrees warmer and cost a few dollars more, that case is by far preferable to a negative-pressure case for almost all users. Reply
quanta - Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - linkAm I the only one who noticed many of the so-called high-end case have been steadily losing external drive bays? There used to be 6 to 7 bays even on medium cases, but lately you'll be lucky to find 4 bays. With the use of optical drive, memory card reader and fan controller, the spare front panels are pretty much gone. The side-loading drive bays are arguably less versatile than front-loading variety, because there are no aftermarket hot swap bay fitting 3.5-inch drive bays. However, front hot swap bay requires no manual disconnection of cables or removing front panel once it is installed, saving time for hardware testing. Besides, the 5.25-in external bays are perfect for cooling bay for hard drives, and handy for converting them into intake fan slots. Reply
ShieTar - Tuesday, April 10, 2012 - linkThere is always the Lian Li PC-V343B if you just can not get enough external bays. 18x5.25" should seriously be enough for everybody. But testing it with an mATX board an no watercooling by be somewhat insulting to the case.
But in general you are correct. If you go on any price-comparison site, you should still find that about 10% of all cases have at least six 5.25" bays, but on closer inspection you will see that most of those are somewhat older designs.
I assume the main reason for this is the fact that more and more people get sepparate storage systems and use their main systems with one (or two) SSDs as Game/Work Systems only. And Anandtech, as much as I personally enjoy their tests, are really just picking a small sample of all cases available with their 20 or so tests per year, so it is understandable if they concentrate on the one or two cases per manufacturer which can be expected to be of interest for the majority of customers/readers. Reply
olafgarten - Saturday, November 30, 2013 - linkthe case actually supports an XL-ATX Reply
SeanJ76 - Thursday, January 28, 2016 - linkAntec Eleven hundred v2 is one of the best cases you can own..... Reply


text:
Hands on With NVIDIA's Project Shield - Update: Now With Videoby Brian Klug on 1/7/2013 5:11 PM EST
- Posted in
- Trade Shows
- Shield
- Tegra 4
41 Comments
Back to Article
IanCutress - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkThe more I read about Shield, the more I want one as my next 'console' - read streaming games from my PC. As a few of us mentioned on twitter... Shield == SHIELD ? Some tie in with Iron Man 3 / Avengers 2 and product placement perhaps? Reply
guidryp - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkStreaming PC games seems more like a novelty/gimmick. You really want to move your games to a tiny 5" screen, where most would likely be too small to really even be playable. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkA novelty/gimmick unless you want to build one gaming PC and have that gaming PC power gaming across your entire household. One gaming PC you can fully power-up with as much SLI, etc, as you can squeeze into a huge ass box that you then hide in a room far away from everyone.
Then you run your gaming through to your HTPC in your living room, your HTPC in your bedroom, your HTPC in your bathroom (toiletroller), your ultrabook out on your patio, your laptop anywhere near your home, etc.
The possibilities are endless. Hell, stream your game out to your ultrabook at the coffeeshop. I'm sure it's gonna have less latency than OnLive serving you games in TN from KA and you don't have to pay anything for beyond having nVidia hardware.
Suddenly, you don't have to buy a Razer Blade to get awesome gaming and thin. You can just buy a cheap, reasonable thin laptop. The only thing you need to spend top dollar on then is your gaming rig and you don't even have to attach a display to that. It can just be a gaming server.
You lack imagination. This could be great. It doesn't even have to just stream to PC's. It could stream to anything you can really attach a controller to. Android devices like Ouya or any tablet or smartphone would also be great.
Of course, Radeon users will be grumpy because they won't get to join in, but hey at least they got memory controller improvements to look forward to sometime around June, right? Reply
guidryp - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkYou are talking about streaming PC to PC, why do you even need a game console in the middle to do that?
Exactly what is it doing in that situation. Reply
MattCoz - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkConsidering their use of superhero names for their Tegra chips, I think that 's what they were going for. Reply
sciwizam - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkDid you guys get a chance to bench it? Reply
Johnmcl7 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkApparently not:
" I should note that NVIDIA is not allowing benchmarking at present"
John Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkSunspider has become so popular that it's now just a test of who optimizes around it more. But yeah, I'm eager for some benchies of this quad A15 72 GPU core chip. Reply
cmikeh2 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkShield is quickly moving onto my short list of things I want to get. The one problem is my limited budget forced me to make compromises when I purchased my laptop so I only have 650m, which is overclocked, but still just a 650m. Their current documentation states a 650m is required which will really make me angry since my overclocked speed should be plenty fast enough to handle it. Reply
Death666Angel - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkHm, seems like in some places you wanted to write something other than "650"? Otherwise, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. :D Reply
Stuka87 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkHe meant to say 660 (It requires a GTX650, or a GTX660M). Reply
cmikeh2 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkThat was my bad. You're right. Reply
MonkeyPaw - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkThe fact that Shield uses a fan raises a few questions about Tegra4. I get the impression this is a higher TDP chip than what we will see in tablets. That, or future tablets might be gaining active cooling. Reply
jwcalla - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkYikes. Not a fan of that idea. Reply
cmikeh2 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkPun intended? Reply
ET - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkFan intended. Reply
cmikeh2 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkI'd guess that the functional TDP of this thing is probably in the realm of 8W so similar to the IVB ULV announced today. Considering the Exynos 5250 would spike to 8 W but typically run at 4 I can see this running at around 6-8 under typical usage. Reply
Chloiber - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkI don't think so. The T4 in this thing is probably clocked very aggressively and pushed to the limit. It's made for gaming.
Additionally, coming from the One X: also T3 gets pretty hot if you game for a long period of time. Start a THD game which puts heavy load on all 4 cores and you may see temps beyond 50°C (as reported for the BATTERY). Well, a One X is not made for gaming, at least not for hours - but this thing is. So as Brian pointed out, it did not get hot during normal usage for him and the fan was not needed. But I expect the chip to heat up if use it heavily for a long period of time. Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkMaybe not. The Tegra 3 in the Ouya has a fan and heatsink, but obviously the ones in phones and tablets don't require that. It depends on clocks and voltages. Maybe the Shield one runs higher than others. Reply
TareX - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkThis thing is as portable as a laptop. The VITA on the other hand is super light and ultraportable, plus is backed by the big gaming companies (well, some of them) and SONY. The Shield seems like the older brother of the Xperia Play... Dedicated games will be far from console quality, similar to how FIFA Soccer on the Vita compares to FIFA on the iPad3/Android. No comparison. Reply
Stuka87 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkSo... what is the point of this?
You need to be on Wifi with your PC in order to stream, which means you are at home. So why should I give up my big monitor, keyboard and mouse to play on a small screen with a console controller that apparently gets hot enough to need a fan?
Oh, and what on earth is a "Retinal" display? 720P on a 5" screen isn't enough to be a retina, so they call it a retinal? If that is not meant to confuse consumers, not sure what is. Reply
guidryp - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkI assume "Retinal" is avoiding Apples "Retina" trademark. Reply
BenSkywalker - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkThe display is 293.72ppi- the latest "retina" iPad is lower then that. Reply
jamdev12 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkStuka87,
Unless you watched the show yesterday, the main attraction wasn't that you could stream content (games) from your PC to the 5" screen, it was the fact that you could stream that content to your TV through this controller. So instead of using your 24" screen to play your game, you can play it on your 60" HDTV without wires. Reply
Stuka87 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkNow, I did not watch it, although watching the video that is posted above (now) gives a better idea of the device. And it does look cool.
I assume your TV would either have to support wireless streaming, or there is a device that plugs into an HDMI port or the like? Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkToilet gaming. Reply
mckirkus - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkI hope they wrapped this thing in 98.6 degree gel during thermal testing. It's not often you see a computing device designed to be death gripped by potentially chubby man hands. Reply
zebrax2 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkI would assume it would be on the same room as the router if so then how was the performance as you slowly back away from the router Reply
JNo - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkDespite all the knowledge and experience and expertise, I sometimes wonder at the expectations made by you guys at anandtech.
You wonder why they didn't do 5.5" at 1080p? Really? When 720p at 5" is already retina so any more pixels would be indistinguishable? And when you're already noticing bandwidth constrained artifacts at 720p? (which of course you're still going to get at 1080p)
And then there's cost (I presume they want to sell some!!), power consumption, battery life, frame rates of native android games, the fact that there are no natural competitors in this niche to worry about out-spec'ing etc etc.
I'm not trying to be rude but 1080p would be really really dumb for nvidia for this device. Reply
This Guy - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkOne benefit of running at 720p include larger text and UI items.
Another benefit is that any game will run on ultra settings and 4x AA at 60 fps.
Artifacts may be less visible at 1080p (even if there are more artifacts) as there would be around twice as many pixels in the same area. They could also pair it with an AC router or USB3 stick if bandwidth was a problem. Reply
jamdev12 - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkCalm down JNo. Anandtech is probably trying to point out that with new gear coming out now, most of them are going Full HD on small screens. I understand your point of view though. 720p is there to provide leverage for Nvidia to sell more of these at a more affordable price point. 1080p would probably increase the price significantly. Reply
JNo - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkI know but sometime when journalists write that something else would make, and I quote, "much more sense" I wonder if they've really thought about it.
We all want moar pixels but they cost and in this case it's actually the opposite IMO - it makes much *less* sense. Sometimes you've got to think that if a multi-billion dollar company with plenty of well paid highly intelligent people have thought not to do it that it might be for good reasons and not because they're just forgetful. Reply
Krysto - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkI agree, the bezel is way too big, and overall the screen seems pretty small too in comparison with the controller itself. They could've made it 7", and they should for version 2.0. Reply
xcomvic - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkIt at $100.00 and you have a winner. Will outsell Ouya and Gamestick easily. Reply
ET - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkWill never happen. But it might outsell them at $200 too. Reply
JNo - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkSo $100 for a tegra 4 *and* 5" 720p screen *and* WiDi will be a winner vs $100 for a tegra 3 in a box?
Well of course... Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkLook at the PS Vita which Sony is having trouble bringing the price down on. This is way more loaded than that. AND Nvidia just said they won't sell it as a loss leader, I think implying a hefty price. It will be higher than the Vita, that's for sure. Reply
ET - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkIt's not more loaded. No GPS, no cameras, and probably simpler in some other respects. I imagine the Shield can be sold at the PS Vita's price or a bit lower. Not all the specs are available though, which makes estimating the price harder. Reply
ET - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkThe most important point for me was when I saw you changing the angle of the screen. That was one point I was worried about and now I'm no longer worried.
The more I see this, the more I want it. I'll be waiting to see what the price is. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Tuesday, January 08, 2013 - linkHDMI is too unwieldy to be attached to something that gets moved around like this. The cable stresses the connector much moreso than other connectors like usb, rj45, or rca. It wont last long at all. Reply
lmcd - Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - linkOne thing a couple previews have noted is the difference between this controller and other console controllers. Could you feature-request built-in support for the device (on PCs and consoles) as an input device? Then there wouldn't be the problem of switching between controller types.
The other big thing I hoped to see (once I heard about the project) was a swivel - type screen like some ultra books, where the screen could rotate 180 and fold flat, and activate software buttons in Android. That functionality would seal it for me. Reply


text:
Train | American Byways Collection | Canvas Art Prints
$ 89.00
UV resistant, semi-matte canvases are hand stretched onto 1.5" deep wooden stretcher bars.
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The canvas sides are finished with a color or additional imagery, so framing is not necessary.
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text:
NVIDIA's GeForce 800M Lineup for Laptops and Battery Boostby Jarred Walton on 3/12/2014 12:00 PM EST
91 Comments
Back to Article
nutgirdle - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkMaxwell 860M seems to be a good fit for 15" rMBP. Reply
WinterCharm - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkAssuming it's TDP is close to that of the 750m, yes, it could end up in the new rMBP's.
However, what apple did with the 750m in the rMBP is that they over clocked it, and used its lower TDB compared to the 765m to keep heat down. In that sense, we may very well see an OC'd 850m in the new rMBP.
Only time will tell. Razer did manage to put the 765m in their Blade 14" laptop, so if Apple was willing to take the slight hit on battery life, they may decide to give the 860m a shot :) Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkWell, not so much "overclocked" as allowed the maximum allowable boost clock through firmware and cooling. Reply
fteoath64 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkApple likely buy the cheapest pne 850M and firmware clocked it 10% higher and that's it. They are real cheap-skate in terms of getting good parts due to their monopoly in the Mac market. Reply
Zoolookuk - Saturday, March 15, 2014 - linkYeah, Apple are known for being 'cheap'... Reply
Antronman - Saturday, March 29, 2014 - linkAs far as what they want to pay, yeah.
As far as what they ask you to pay, never in a million years. Reply
Antronman - Saturday, March 29, 2014 - linkAnd it would be a waste because only hipsters who don't even play games that would need a GPU for high-quality settings, good fps use macs. Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkBut we'd still have to pay 700 extra for it, presumably :/
The Iris Pro is good enough and all, but for some work (even non gaming, and not quite so high end as for a workstation card to be worth it) a Geforce or Radeon is just required so you have to pony up that huge extra fee. Reply
Connoisseur - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkHa. I just started a thread on the AT forums about the MSI GS60 saying that the only other laptop i'd look forward to is a refreshed Razer Blade 14 and here were are. Very opportune timing. If that Blade has a significantly better screen than the last generation, I may finally buy a laptop again. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - link3K I believe, so yes -- much better. :-) Reply
Connoisseur - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkJarred. In regards to the ultra high-res displays, have you already or do you plan on putting together an article regarding gaming and upscaling on 3K and 4K screens? More and more laptops are coming out with these "retina" style displays where the graphics card won't be able to run games at native res. I'd like to see how the games would look/perform with upscaling. For example, running the game at 16x9 or 1080p with various settings on a 3k screen.
I think it'd be an important article because it would affect my buying choice when offered multiple screen options with the same laptop. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkI commented on this in the Dell XPS 15 review. Basically, upscaling (or running at non-native) is much less noticeable in many respects as the pixels are so small. The other side of the coin is that there are way too many Windows apps that I use that don't work well with high DPI. In a few years, I think it will all get sorted out, but right now high DPI is "bleeding edge" stuff. Reply
rxzlmn - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - link4K is much better than 3K though, due to the fact that you can natively scale to both 720p and 1080p. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkI wonder if Vivek had a hand in that. ;) Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkPossibly, but I thought he was primarily concerned with making the chassis and waxing eloquent on the joys of the material choices and such. Speaking of which, what are you working on these days? Hahaha.... Reply
WinterCharm - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkJust checked out Razer's website...
That blade has an IGZO (Indium Gallium Zinc Oxide) IPS touchscreen, at a resolution of 3200x1800.
Looks like you're in luck! :) just... uh... prepare your wallet. Reply
Connoisseur - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkWallet is never prepared. I just club it on the head and drag it out. This will be one hell of an expensive purchase if I end up buying it. I'm really curious about the heat and noise generated by this beast. Looks like it's shipping in April? I'm hoping AT gets a review sample. Reply
talos113 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkThis is great news! I look forward to seeing laptops become thinner and more powerful. I know they will never fully reach desktop performance, but it makes me smile seeing them gain. I recently purchased a sager np9150 with a 7970m and I am honestly using my desktop less and less while I enjoy the benefits of mobility. Its an awesome time for technology! Reply
warezme - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkI'm still rocking a big Alienware 17x R3 with 580M so I have been eyeing the upgrade paths. But, I can't help but be very disappointed the "880M" is not Maxwell technology but just re-branded old stuff. I don't care if its 20% faster. I don't mind a carrying around a large laptop. I'm not a frail girl. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkMy guess is we'll see Maxwell GTX 890M or 885M or something during the summer months -- just in time for the back-to-school shopping. Reply
Freakie - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkNot only in time for back-to-school, but in time for Broadwell. The power improvements of Broadwell + Maxwell at the very high end will be an incredibly refreshing change in gaming-laptop battery life. Reply
willis936 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkWhat's the timeframe for laptops showing up with these? A P34G with a GTX 860M (and hopefully a 16GB option) would be great before summer. Reply
bakedpatato - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkCouple of outlets are running pieces on the "New Razer Blade 14", it has a 3200 x 1800 touch screen and indeed does have a 870m while the Blade Pro indeed has a 860m Reply
jasonelmore - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkwtf the pro has a less powerful GPU in a much bigger chassis? Reply
jcompagner - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkSo now we will get a many nice and light and thin 17" laptops?
Currently the only 1 i can by in The Netherlands is the MSI Stealth. I don't know any other. So i guess i just have to wait until the refresh of the Stealth (that i guess will have a 8xxM in side it)
But it would be nice to have way more options.. (for example a 17" with a resolution between 2k and 4k) Reply
Aikouka - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkHm, I think the only disappointing factors are the use of Kepler and Maxwell parts (although not surprising) and the lack of distinguishing between the two architectures at the 860M level. However, I am looking forward to coverage of 860M (Maxwell) parts as I think that will finally be a good sweet spot for me. I have an aging gaming laptop (Dell M1530 with an M8600 GT), and I've grown very used to my ASUS Zenbook... especially its weight (or the lack thereof). So, I'm hoping for a (relatively!) light-weight laptop that has some decent gaming power under the hood. Reply
willis936 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkKepler? How about that Fermi SKU? They have to be blowing the dust off of some old chips to still be selling those. Really the most disappointing thing about the 800 series so far is the fact that there still is no word on desktop parts. As most people are saying they're likely waiting for TSMC 20nm. That is a long gap. The entire desktop gaming GPU cycle has been shifted half a year because of it. I can't imagine nvidia and amd expect to get "back on track" by releasing the 900 series parts a few months after the 800 series. Reply
schizoide - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkThe 750Ti (and thus 860m) still doesn't match the 7870/660 class GPUs in current-gen consoles and thus isn't a really viable enthusiast gaming platform. The
870m is a closer fit, and the 880m definitely does it, but those will be much more expensive. We're so dang close to xbone/PS4-class performance in mainstream laptops, it hurts. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkYou can't just look at the CUDA core counts -- the consoles are using AMD chips for one, and AMD shader cores have almost always been "slower" individually than NVIDIA shader cores. I suspect the GTX 750 Ti will give the PS4 and XBOne a run for the money in GPU performance. Couple it with a decent CPU and the only thing really holding us back on PCs is the OS and the need to support "infinity" different hardware configurations. Reply
schizoide - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkI'm not looking at core counts alone, all the various game tests have shown the 750Ti to be slower than the 7870 and the 660, which are roughly equivalent to current-gen consoles. Reply
MrSpadge - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkOnly if you equate the next gen consoles with the PS4. The XBone (~HD7790) is about matched by GTX750Ti. Reply
rish95 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkAre you sure? As far as I know, the 750 Ti outperforms the PS4 in Battlefield 4 and the XBone in Titanfall. Reply
jasonelmore - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkit plays titanfall on medium settings @1080p 60FPS.. The Xbox One is using similar settings but only rendering at 760p then upscaled. So yes, it's faster if you dismiss variables like CPU and Platform performance.
No real way to compare unless someone pops in a Steamroller cpu with 750 Ti Reply
rish95 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkWhile that would be nice to see, I don't think that's the point. The OP said the 750 Ti can't make for a viable gaming platform compared to current gen consoles, because it is "slower."
Clearly it can. It's outperforming both consoles with some CPU/platform setups. The 860Ms in these laptops would likely be paired with i5s and i7s, which will yield much better CPU performance than the Steamroller APUs in the consoles. Reply
sheh - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - link860M and 860M. That's nice. A new low in obfuscation of actual specs? Reply
schizoide - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkAgreed, I also found that disgusting. Reply
MrSpadge - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkExactly. Especially since the "860M (Kepler)" is crippled by its memory bus. What's the point of putting such a large, powerful and expensive chip in there when many shaders are deactivated and not even the remaining ones can use their full performance potential. You also can't make a huge chip as energy efficient as a smaller one by disabling parts of it.
GK106 with full shaders, 192 bit bus and moderate clocks would have been more economic and at least as powerful, probably a bit faster depending on game and settings.
Yet regarding power efficiency "860M (Maxwell)" destroys both of these configurations, which makes them rather redundant. Especially since it should be cheaper for nVidia to produce the GM107. Do they have so many GK104 left to throw away? Reply
En1gma - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - link> 800M will be a mix of both Kepler and Maxwell parts
and even Fermi: 820m is GF108-based Reply
En1gma - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkor GF117.. Reply
r3loaded - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkWhy does Nvidia persist with the GT/GTX prefixes? They're largely meaningless as people just go off the 3-digit model number. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkThey did drop the "GT" on the 840M/830M/820M. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkAnd adding to that, keeping GTX allows them the ability to say, "GTX is required for Battery Boost, GameStream, and ShadowPlay." Reply
jeffbui - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkIs there a reason why the GPUs have been stuck at the 28nm node for so long? IIRC the 600 series was also a 28nm part. Reply
TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linksimple. TSMC's 20nm process STILL isnt ready for mass use. until they are finished, both AMD and NVIDIA are stuck at 28nm. it's too bad, as laptop GPUs are screaming for 20nm gpus. Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkGeForce Experience is pretty awesome. It used to be that whenever I got a new game, I'd have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out the right settings for it; the default settings would usually either run way too slow or way too fast. But with GeForce experience, they've already tested the game with the same CPU and GPU that I've got, and its defaults are generally a good balance of quality and performance. So what used to be an involved process of play-tweak-play-tweak-play is now just a "mash button and go".
That said, it could still use some polish. I don't know if it's still in beta, but it feels like it. It's not uncommon for it to start reporting "game cannot be optimized" for games that it DOES support (and that you have previously optimized), which usually requires a reboot. And a few months ago nVidia did a self-update that caused it to go completely nuts, locking up the machine (a trip to their forums indicated it happened to everybody who got the update before they fixed it). Reply
Concillian - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - link"Where things get a little interesting is when we get to the GTX 860M. As we've seen in the past, NVIDIA will have two different models of the 860M available, and they're really not very similar (though performance will probably be pretty close)."
no... performance won't be close. This is a laptop, where power efficiency is part of performance, and you me, and the author all know power consumption of the "Maxwell 860M" is going to be less than the "Kepler 860M" the article should be absolutely SLAMMING nVidia for calling two very different parts the same thing. The video card numbering schemes are confusing enough to laymen (I get asked to try to explain it regularly, since I'm the go to hardware guy in my circle of friends, relatives, co-workers, casual acquaintances and all their friends...) It's going to be impossible to tell them that it depends on which GTX860 they get and they probably can't tell which they'll get until they get the computer... Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkWe've complained many times about overlapping names in the past. There were for instance two completely different versions of the GT 555M (which later became the GT 635M I believe). And performance and battery life are not "the same" -- particularly since the GPU is usually off when you're on battery power. If you want to play games while unplugged, well, there it could be a different story. Anyway, we pointed it out, said it was a dumb overlap more or less (the "interesting" was meant as a sarcastic interesting, not a "wow, this is really interesting"; perhaps that wasn't properly conveyed though I'd suggest the rest of the text supports that), and moved on. If the Kepler variant is widely used, we'll certainly complain about it. Reply
Runamok81 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkBest news here? nVidia finally dropped the silly GTX suffix. Bump that stock price. Sanity is prevailing. Reply
Death666Angel - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkNope. Reply
Anders CT - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkGTX 860M and GTX 860M are two different GPU's using different architectures?
That is a pretty lame naming scheme. Reply
MrSpadge - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkYeah, 4 letters and 3 numbers are just not enough to get this point across. Reply
lordmocha - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - link"and while I can't verify the numbers they claim to provide better performance with a 840M than Iris Pro 5100 while using less than half as much power."
i think you mean 5200
the iris pro in the macbook retina 15" is actually quite amazing for the casual gamer:
doat2: 1920x1200 maximum FXAA 67fps
csgo: 1920x1200 high FXAA TRI 82fps (107fps inside office in corridor)
sc2: 1920x1200 texture = ultra| graphics = med = 78fps
gw2: 1920x1200 - Best Appearance 21fps | Autodetect 50fps (60fps on land) | Best Performance 91fps
diablo3: 1920x1200 high = 56fps Reply
blzd - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkWhile using 2x as much power as a low end dedicated GPU. Intel just threw power efficiency out the window with Iris Pro. Reply
IntelUser2000 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkWith Cherry Trail, they will be able to put the HD 4400 level of performance in Atom chips.
Both Nvidia and Intel have secret sauce to tremendously improve performance/watt in the next few years or so to push HPC.
Broadwell should be the first result for Intel in that space, while Nvidia starts with Maxwell. The eventual goal for both companies are 10TFlop DP at about 200W in 2018-19 timeframe. Obviously the efficiency gains gets pushed down in graphics. Reply
lordmocha - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkyes that is true, but with any gaming laptop you'd only get 2 or 3 hours battery while gaming,
aka most laptop gamers play plugged in, thus it's not a massive issue, but will affect the few who game not near a power point. Reply
HighTech4US - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkJarred: Actually, scratch that; I'm almost certain a GT 740M GDDR5 solution will be faster than the 840M DDR3, though perhaps not as energy efficient.
Someone seems to have forgotten the 2 MB of on-chip cache. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkNo, I just don't 2MB is going to effectively hide the fact that you're using 2GB of textures and trying to deal with most of those using a rather tiny amount of memory bandwidth. Does the Xbox One's eDRAM effectively make up for the lack of raw memory bandwidth compared to the PS4? In general, no, and that's with far more than a 2MB cache. Reply
HighTech4US - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkSo then please explain how the GTX 750 Ti with it's 128 bit bus comes very close to the GTX 650 Ti with a 192 bit bus? Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkIt can help, sure, but you're comparing a chip with a faster GPU and the same RAM to a chip with 640 Maxwell shaders at 1189MHz to a chip with 768 Kepler shaders at 1032MHz (plus Boost in both cases). Just on paper, the GTX 750 Ti has 4% more shader processing power. If bandwidth isn't the bottleneck in a game -- and in many cases it won't be with 86.4GB/s of bandwidth -- then the two GPUs are basically equal, and if a game needs a bit more bandwidth, the 650 Ti will win out.
Contrast that with what I'm talking about: a chip with less than 20% of the bandwidth of the 750 Ti. It's one thing to be close when you're at 80+ GB/s, and quite another to be anywhere near acceptable performance at 16GB/s. Reply
Death666Angel - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - link"Speaking of which, I also want to note that anyone that thinks "gaming laptops" are a joke either needs to temper their requirements or else give some of the latest offerings a shot."
You realize that you are speaking to the "PC gaming master race", right? :P Reply
ThreeDee912 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkVery minor typo on the first page.
"The second GTX 860M will be a completely new Maxell part"
I'm assuming "Maxell" should be "Maxwell".
/nitpick Reply
gw74 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkwhy do I live in a world where thunderbolt eGPU for laptops are still not a thing and astronomically expensive, mediocre-performing gaming laptops are still a thing? Reply
willis936 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkBecause outward facing bandwidth is scarce and expensive. Even with thunderbolt 2.0 (which has seen a very underwhelming adoption from OEMs) the GPU will be spending a great deal of time waiting around to be fed. Reply
lordmocha - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkthe few videos on youtube show that it is possible to run graphics cards over TB1 4x pice, and be able to achieve 90%+ performance out of the card when connected to an external monitor and 80%+ performance when feeding back through the TB to the internal monitor
so basically eGPU could really be a thing right now, but no-one is making a gaming targeted pcie tb connector. (sonnet's one needs an external psu if you are trying to put a gpu in it) Reply
rhx123 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkBecause GPU Makers can sell mobile chips for a huge increase over desktop chips.
A 780M, which is roughly comparable to a desktop 660 nets Nvidia a hell of a lot more cash.
A 660 can be picked up for arround £120 these days, whereas on Clevo reseller site in my country a 770-780M upgrade costs £158.
Nvidia knows that a large percentage of very high end gaming laptops (780M) just sit on desks and are carried around very infrequently, which could easily be undercut piecewise with a eGPU.
My 13inch laptop, 750Ti ExpressCard eGPU, and PSU for the eGPU (XBOX 360) can still easily fit into a backpack for taking round to a friends, and costed much less than any similar performing laptop avaible at the time, and when I don't need that GPU power then I have an ultraportable 13 inch at my disposal. Reply
CosmosAtlas - Wednesday, March 26, 2014 - linkBecause intel does not give permissions for making thunderbolt eGPU. I was waiting for a thunderbolt based Vidock, however it will never happen because of this. Reply
willis936 - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkSo I take it nvidia hasn't hinted at the possibility of g-sync chips being included in laptop panels? I think they'd make the biggest impact in laptops where sub 60 fps is practically given on newer titles. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkI asked about this at CES. It's something NVIDIA is working on, but there's a problem in that the display is being driven by the Intel iGPU, with Optimus working in the background and rendering the frames. So NVIDIA would have to figure out how to make Intel iGPU drive the LCD properly -- and not give away their tech I suppose. I think we'll see a solution some time in the next year or two, but G-Sync is still in its early stages on desktops, so it will take time. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkI'm surprised you guys didn't say anything about the 850M not supporting SLI. I was expecting a paragraph deriding that decision by Nvidia. I'm really upset. I would have loved to see how energy efficient SLI could get. Lenovo has had that laptop with 750M in SLI for about a year now and I've thought that was kinda stupid.
But considering how power efficient Maxwell is maybe that could actually be a good idea now.
Maybe they'll still do it with underclocked GTX 860M's.
Hm, I bet that's what Nvidia wanted. To discourage OEM's from buying 2 cheaper GPU's/laptop instead of ONE hugely expensive one. Prevent them from SLI'ing the best GPU in their lineup.
Yep, pissed. I'm pissed. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkbest GPU for SLI* in their lineup. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkI've never been much of a fan of SLI in laptops. Scaling is never perfect, often there is more difficulty with drivers and game compatibility, and battery life can take a hit as well. I mentioned it didn't support SLI, but I can't say it bothers me much. 860M Maxwell supports it (apparently) and will use the same chip, so really it's only going to be a small bump in price to go from two 850M to two 860M -- assuming an OEM wants to do SLI 860M that is. Reply
Harmattan - Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - linkI think the thesis of this article is right on: it's a great time for gaming notebooks. The idea just four years ago that I could play the newest games at highest settings at 2560x1600 at more than respectable FPS was unthinkable. My Sager with dual 780ms does that with legs to spare, and I should be able to do this with a SINGLE GPU once high-end Maxwell mobile chips come later this year -- simply amazing. Reply
IntelUser2000 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - link"we're talking about a feeble 16GB/s of memory bandwidth – that's lower than what most desktops and laptops now have for system memory, as DDR3-1600 with a 128-bit interface will do 25.6GB/s."
Actually the shared aspect in iGPU systems effectively makes the bandwidth equal to about half that. That is, 12.8GB/s. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkOnly if you're using the iGPU to do something, but since I'm discussing system bandwidth vs. GPU bandwidth I didn't get into that. I suppose something like Kaveri will end up with about the same 16GB/s of bandwidth from the system RAM (with the remaining bandwidth going to the CPU), but really Kaveri will still only be a "moderate" GPU performance level. Reply
lmcd - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkSince when has Fermi been die shrunk? The 820 needs fact-checked. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkSince 2012. They released a 28nm version of GF108: GF117.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5697/nvidias-geforce... Reply
jasonelmore - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkFirst Maxwell SLI Enabled GPU!!! and its in a LAPTOP WTF Reply
fteoath64 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkDoes anybody see why Maxwell part is the starting point and Kepler holding the higher end of the range ?. They are squeezing blood out of Kepler before a complete switch to Maxwell. It is a very clever trick to pull and buys NV time to carefully craft the performance of higher end Maxwell parts to suit the performance/price model they wanted. This release alone seems enough to maintain their discrete gpu market on laptops while AMD struggles with their mobile market. It keeps Intel IGP at bay except for non gamers who do not care about discrete graphics. Reply
hero4hire - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkI am one of those people that think laptop gaming "is a joke" still. 1hr gaming is still limited but more so is most gamers are going to want to use a mouse not trackpad and therefore use a table. At the point you're gaming at a table why not build a solid desktop and buy an ultraportable for less? Are people unable to spend a 1k to 2k budget better in this regard?
I am greatful to see real performance hitting laptops, lower 850m = 580m in the illustration for example. Coming from a purely cost sense I am unconvinced an upgradable desktop and cheap slim low power laptop is not better for the vast majority while also being cheaper. Especially in the long run as you can upgrade a desktop while a $200-$300 laptop won't depreciate like a 1k-2k one will. For example, who is going to buy that 580m laptop for even half its list now? A cheap laptop is almost always worth $100. Reply
lordmocha - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkmost play plugged into the power and with an external mouse
yet the reason to get a gaming laptop (not gaming desktop + laptop) is that it can be cheaper (though performance will be worse), and that it is very portable to take to a friends house Reply
adityarjun - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkHow would a 860m compare to a 580m?
I have a 580m currently and find it fast enough. So if i upgrade again, i would only go for a 860m or so and make savings on the battery life. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkNVIDIA says the 850M is 30% faster than the 580M, so the 860M would be another 15% over that. Reply
adityarjun - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkWow!! To think that my m17x r3 is already 'slow'.
I find the 580m to be quite awesome. The 880m must really be something.
I know there are a lot of other variables but how long do you think a good FHD system with 860m and a processor like i7 4800mq could last on battery? Reply
jtd871 - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkJarred: Having a gaming laptop with Optimus, I'm not convinced of any benefit of Optimus. Since I leave my machine plugged in all the time, it really doesn't give me any benefit. On the contrary, I have the following main issue with Optimus: sometimes software doesn't use the dGPU or the dGPU fails to kick in. I've experienced this with at least 2 titles: AutoCAD 2013 and Zen Pinball 2. In the first case, AC displays an error dialog saying it can't find a real GPU and exits to the desktop. I've actually resorted to running AC2013 on my old ThinkPad that has a discrete GPU. In the second, Zen Pinball 2 (via Steam) apparently finds and runs on the HD4000 iGPU, but is horribly laggy. (Other Steam-based titles seem to run fine.) Optimus for big, power-hungry laptops is probably a half-baked idea given how well the recent major GPUs drop to idle anyway, and I will be shopping for a discrete GPU only in the future. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkAnd you can't get either to work by creating a custom profile in NVIDIA's control panel? I have Zen Pinball 2 so I can at least try that, but I haven't ever used AutoCAD so I'm not help there. Reply
iwod - Thursday, March 13, 2014 - linkNo Wonder why Apple are designing their own GPU, with the mess GPU maker seems to have with naming things. Reply
Novaguy - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkAnybody know when the benchmarks come out? I'll love to see the maxwell 860m benchmarked against the 770m and the 750m/755m sli (i.e., the lenovo y510p). Reply
kaellar - Friday, March 14, 2014 - linkHey Jarred, I'm confused a little with this quote:
"One nice benefit of moving to the GTX class is that the 850M will require the use of GDDR5"
It doesn't seem to be true since geforce.com states both DDR3 and GDDR5 are possible for 850m. Reply
ilkhan - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkSo nothing all that interesting to replace my GTX770M card with. Reply
Anders CT - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkThe RAM clocks for the gddr5 cards are specified as 2.5 GHz. Is that a mistake? Shouldn't it be in the neighbourhood of 5 GHz with 80ish GB/s memory bandwidth? Reply
willis936 - Sunday, March 16, 2014 - linkGood grief OEMs aren't listing which 860m is in which laptop SKU which leaves me believing thatbtheyre actually mixing maxwell and kepler bins. That pisses me off greatly because one chip has a higher value than the other and they're leaving it literally up to luck. If I get a laptop this summer I will return it if I get a Kepler chip without hesitation and try a different site to buy from.
Also the quoted max of 2GB for the 860m is interesting because gigabytes "p34g v2" product page shows the 860m with 4GB DDR5. Reply