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NVIDIA GeForce 8600: Full H.264 Decode Accelerationby Anand Lal Shimpi on 4/27/2007 4:34 PM EST
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- GPUs
64 Comments
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bearxor - Monday, May 21, 2007 - linkHow come we still don't have a article or benchies on a 8500? Reply
billd - Friday, May 04, 2007 - linkIt's a mystery to me why nvidia thinks we are interested in H.264 when there is so little material encoded in it. Of the shipping HD disks reviewed on the hidefdigest.com site, most Blu-Ray titles are encoded in MPEG-2 and most HD DVD titles are encoded in VC-1. Furthermore there are more Blu-Ray titles encoded in VC-1 than H.264. It would have been more helpful if nvidia had natively supported VC-1 first and introduced H.264 later. i.e.
Perhaps there are some TV broadcasts in H.264 however given the low bit-rate compared to HD disks there should be little benefit offloading from the CPU to the video card. Reply
SilverTrine - Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - linkIts not really appropriate to call ATi defunct when they have folded into another company, and hardware is still being sold under the ATi name. Reply
Parhelion69 - Monday, April 30, 2007 - linkAnand, I've seen in some previous benchmarkings that software solutions using CoreAVC gave better results than hardware decoding on previous generations of ATI and NVIDIA video cards, could you make some tests to see if this behavior still applies?
Also I'd love to see tests on older CPUs, like a single core athlon 64 3000+, to see the real help of the decoding on hardware.
Thanks a lot, I always find your reviews extremelly helpful and professional, keep the good work up! Reply
Delerue - Friday, May 04, 2007 - linkYeah. I agree. Indeed, some people already sugest this to the Xbit Labs review, since they missed the same things. Look here: http://www.xbitlabs.com/discussion/3743.html">http://www.xbitlabs.com/discussion/3743.html
BTW, nice review, Anand. You're the guy that I really trust when we talk about hardware. In time, have you confirmed this 'I believe that only PowerDVD/WinDVD support the 8600's hardware acceleration at this point'? Ah! You talked about Intervideo forum, but I can't find it. Can you give to me the adress, please?
Thanks and keep going! Reply
Tewt - Monday, April 30, 2007 - linkWhat am I missing here? Wasn't this tech introduced in the 7xxx series? Was I getting 'part' as opposed to 'full'? Or is this 'acceleration' versus 'decoding' and what is the difference?
And I would like to throw in my two cents along with Parhelion. Just from general reading, my opinion is I keep seeing more and more raw power being thrown around with HD decoding/viewing/etc. Where is the lowest bar for watching HD with no 'hiccups'?
I would love to see someone write a code for Linux for watching HD and we find out a 1Ghz PIII and an ATI 8500 or Nvidia 5500 would run it just fine.
Sorry, thought I was watching HD content(games and downloaded trailers) just fine not too long ago with my A64 3200+ and Geforce 6600GT.
DerekWilson - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - linkgames and downloaded trailers are much much lower bitrate than especially blu-ray is capable of. lower powered cpus and older gpus can handle these fine, its the heavy hitting stuff that is the problem.
the 7 series did not offer full decode. nothing has offered full decode until now. so yes, you were getting part. much of the decode process was being performed on the cpu, while the partially decoded video was sent to the gpu for final processing.
with the 8600/8500, the cpu handles aacs and i/o overhead, decrypting the data on the disk, and re-encrypting the data stream to send to the gpu. this is for aacs protected content of course. games and downloaded content won't have all this stuff going on. your hd videos will still play with less cpu intervention especially in the case of h.264 videos. Reply
bigpow - Monday, April 30, 2007 - linkdon't these people ever learn?
they f#$ked up the 6800GT/Ultra vs 6600GT with purevideo and now did it again? Reply
erikejw - Sunday, April 29, 2007 - linkI cannot find a single word on picture quality in the article hence I assume it is top notch and there is no difference at all.
I have no hardware decoder on my system and the quality of the different software decoders
are from ok to abysmal.
In a cheap HTPC system a slow Athlon x2 seems to be a good fit.
I'll build my system around one and a 8500 card. Reply
DerekWilson - Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - linkdecode quality is equal to powerdvd software decode quality at least.
nvidia will be including hd filtering/post processing for the 8600 series on par with 8800, while the 8500 may not have the processing power to fully implement all the quality features.
we will be evaluating performance using the hd version of silicon optix hqv when finalized. and we may take a look at our beta version before that as well. Reply
Spoelie - Sunday, April 29, 2007 - linkHi,
I've been intrigued by the impact on video playback for a while now, and there are some questions that've been bothering me. Some of these I think can only be answered by the NVIDIA/ATi driver teams, but here goes anyway.
Is the GPU assisted decoding, H.264 spec compliant? In essence, does it have bit identical output as the reference decoder? I was under the impression (from reading doom9) that currently no GPU assisted decoding supported deblocking, an essential part of the spec. However, this was before the release of the 8000 series, so that may have changed.
Also YV12 being the colorspace of all mpeg codecs, for best quality, what is the best way to proceed? What are the YV12->RGB32 colorspace conversion algorithms of the video card, and do they compare to e.g. ffdshow's high precision conversion? Converting colorspace as late as possible improves cpu performance, since there are less bits to move around and process. More of this stuff: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106111&...">http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t...&hig...
Lastly, can't something be done about resizing quality of overlays? This should be a driver thingy of our videocards. Current resizing is some crude bicubic form that produces noticeable artifacts (stairstepping in lines and blocks in gradients and uniform colors). Well, noticeable on lcd screens, crts have a tendency to hide them. There are a lot better algorithms like spline and lanczos. Again, you can do this in ffdshow in software, but this bumps up cpu usage from ~10% to ~80%, just for having a decent resizer. Supporting this in hardware would be nice. Reply
othercents - Sunday, April 29, 2007 - linkDid you all test this on Windows XP? I have business reasons why I can't upgrade yet and wanted to know what the performance difference was between XP and Vista with HD-DVD and if it actually works. I already have the Computer connected to my TV and a TV Tuner card, so getting the 8600 is next on my list if it works with Windows XP.
I am also going to be interested to see if AMD/ATI has the same results with their new video cards especially since I'm not impressed with the Gaming side of the 8600 cards.
Other Reply
Bladen - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkOn page 5 under the second picture is this text;
"Maximum CPU utilization is a bit higher but still less than 30%. Again, note how the 8600 GTS is slightly faster than the 8600 GT in PowerDVD."
Yet the picture shows the GTS as having a higher CPU usage (in the first and second pics). Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkSorry, bad edit by me. I made a text addition and after the results in Yozakura my brain didn't register that the GTS was higher CPU this time. Reply
kelmerp - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkWill there be, or is there now an AGP version of this board? I have an old Athlon XP 3200, with a Geforce 6600GT card acting as my main HTPC. I can play most HD materials, except it can get a little choppy every now and then, and I can't play back 1080p material. I'm curious how upgrading to this card would afect my setup.
Thank you, and keep up the good work. Reply
irusun - Sunday, April 29, 2007 - linkI'd also like to see more testing with older CPUs with the upcoming review of the 8500.
Many people use this kind of card with an *older* PC for their HTPC setup. With one of these cards, how low can you go on the CPU and still be able to play back HDTV smoothly? Could you be watching an HDTV movie and recording HDTV programming at the same time? That kind of info would be really informative to see in a review!
Thanks, and keep up the good work. Reply
phusg - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkAny chance this technology will work over the AGP bus? Can you tell us how much bandwidth is being used during the H.264 decoding?
I've been looking at the ATI/AMD X1950 for my AGP HTPC, but in several reviews of the AGP cards there were problems with the H.264 decoding.
I've also tried a legal copy of the CoreAVC software codec, but that isn't the solution I was hoping it would be, it seems fairly buggy (at least on my aging 2GHz Athlon XP system).
I think a AGP 8500 would be a very popular upgrade amoungst AGP HTPC owners like myself. Reply
DerekWilson - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkNVIDIA has confirmed to us that AGP8x does not have enough bandwidth to handle H.264 content.
The problem isn't total bandwidth, or even up/down stream bandwidth as I understand it.
The problem is that there is a need for 2 way communication between the GPU and the CPU during H.264 playback, and the AGP bus must stop down stream communication in order to allow up stream communication. The frequency with which the GPU needs to talk up stream causes too much latency and reduces effective bandwidth.
At least, this is what I got from my convo with NVIDIA ... Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkAt this point it's all hypothetical. Until NVIDIA or AMD releases an AGP card/GPU with full H.264 decoding support, we really can't say how it will perform. It seems possible that the technology might actually make use of the upstream (i.e. GPU to RAM/CPU) bandwidth more, in which case PCIe might actually be a requirement to get acceptable performance. Reply
kmmatney - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkFunny how ATI does worse with the hardware decode. Is the cpu utilization a truly meaningful figure? For instance, I can run SETI on my system, and it will use 100% of the cpu, but it will also give up any cpu power as soon as any other program needs it, as its all low priority. It seems like the best way to figure out the true resources needed would be to run another benchmark while decoding a movie. Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkThe peak numbers may not be truly meaningful other than indicating a potential for dropped frames. Average CPU utilization numbers are meaningful, however. Unlike SETI, there is a set amount of work that needs to be done in a specific amount of time in order to successfully decode a video. The video decoder can't just give up CPU time to lower CPU usage, because the content has to be handled or frames will be dropped.
The testing also illustrates the problem with ATI's decode acceleration on their slower cards, though: the X1600 XT is only slightly faster than doing all the work on the CPU in some instances, and in the case of VC1 it may actually add more overhead than acceleration. Whether that's due to ATI's drivers/hardware or the software application isn't clear, however. Looking at the WinDVD vs. PowerDVD figures, the impact of the application used is obviously not negligible at this point. Reply
BigLan - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkDoes the 8600 also accelerate x264 content? It's looking like x264 will become the successor to xvid, so if these cards can, they'll be the obvious choice for HD-HTPCs.
I guess the main question would be if windvd or powerdvd can play x264. I suspect they can't, but nero showtime should be able to. Reply
MrJim - Tuesday, May 08, 2007 - linkAccelerating x264 content would be great but i dont know what the big media companies would think about that, maybe ATI or Nvidia will lead the way, hopefully. Reply
Xajel - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkI'm just asking why those enhancement are not in the higher 8800 GPU's ??
I know 8600 will be more used in HTPC than 8800, but it's just not a good reason to not include them !! Reply
Axbattler - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkThose cards came out 5 months after the 8800. Long enough for them to add the tech it seems. I'd expect them in the 8900 (or whatever nVidia name their refresh) though. Actually, it would be interesting to see if they add to the 8800 Ultra. Reply
Xajel - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkI don't expect Ultra to have them, AFAIK Ultra is just tweaked version of GTX with higher MHz for both Core and RAM...
I can expect it for my 7950GT successor Reply
Spacecomber - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkI'm not sure I understand why Nvidia doesn't offer an upgraded version of their decoder software, instead of relying on other software companies to get something put together to work with their hardware. Reply
thestain - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkhttp://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82...">All this tech jock sniffing with the latest and greatest, but this old reliable is a better deal isn't it?
For watching movies.. for the ordinary non-owner of the still expensive hd dvd players and hd dvds... for standard definition content.. even without the nice improvements nvidia has made.. seems to me that the old tech still does a pretty good job.
What do you think of this ole 6600 compared to the 8600 in terms of price paid for the performance you are going to see and enjoy in reality? Reply
DerekWilson - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkthe key line there is "if you have a decent cpu" ... which means c2d e6400.
for people with slower cpus, the 6600 will not cut it and the 8600gt/8500gt will be the way to go.
the aes-128 step still needed to be done on older hardware (as it needs to decrypt the data stream sent to it by the CPU), but using dedicated hardware rather than the shader hardware to do this should help save power or free up resources for other shader processing (post processing like noise redux, etc). Reply
Treripica - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkI don't know if this is too far off-topic, but what PSU was used for testing? Reply
yacoub - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkWait, so is H264 decoding is so terrible with gaming cards that anyone who wants to watch H264 encoded DVDs or videoclips would waste the extra $$$ to get a GTS?
Outside of HTPCs there's really little market for it and even for HTPC there's likely something cheaper that gets the job done just as well (8600GT?).
Let's see what NVidia does for the G80 refresh in a few months... hopefully it includes putting out a card with the spec sheet the 8600GTS should have had: 64 stream processors and a 256-bit bus. Reply
bearxor - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkEIGHTY
That's the HTPC card. No one with a HTPC is going to spend $70-150 more if it performs exactly the same. But we don't know because no site seems to be able to buy one from newegg even though they've been available since last Tuesday. I guess they're waiting on nVidia to send review samples. I have a hundred bucks in hand ready to buy a 8500 but have been waiting to see how it performs with video decoding.
PLEASE! Reply
kilkennycat - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkThe 8600GT/GTS has HTPC built-in. THe 8500GT does NOT. It apparently is a vendor-supplied option in the case of the 8500GT.
Newegg has been very careful in their listings of late to include "HDCP" in their text-description of graphics cards if they are aware of it being available. However, you should also check the manufacturer's website specsheet. If no mention of HDCP there... buyer beware !!
For an example, see the BFG website and the specs for the 8600GT and the 8500GT ( Other vendor websites very conveniently hide the HDCP detail in their summary descriptions, eg: eVGA )
Compare and look at the last couple of paragraphs, No sign of HDCP on the 8500 spec.....
kilkennycat - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkOoops sorry. No edit-function for past-postings on Anandtech nor Daily Tech. ( I suggest that Anand and DT personnel take a look at The Tech Report website http://techreport.com/">http://techreport.com/ for the proper way to handle edits in comment-postings....)
Anyway, I meant to type HDCP on the first line of the above posting. So anybody with a H...T...P...C requiring H...D...C...P needs to be a little careful in their choice of whether to invest in a 8500 or a 8600 card and double-check the manufacturer's spec for the magic abbreviation "HDCP". Otherwise, iirc the video decoding capabilities of the two families are identical. Reply
bearxor - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkYes, HDCP is a option on the 8500. Newegg has a HDCP 8500. The gigabyte with passive cooling, perfect for a htpc.
The problem is the 'supposed to have'. Who knows? I've not seen benchmarks on it. the 8600GT and GTS are 'supposed to be' the same but in this review there were some significant differences between the two. At one point the 8600gt required 8 percent more cpu power. How do I know the 8500 won't be 10-15% higher than that? Reply
A5 - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkIs there any chance of a review of the various PVR/TV/MC packages out there, like a comparison between SageTV, BeyondTV, Vista MCE, and a free option (GB-PVR/MediaPortal)? No one has really done anything like that since you guys did it a few years ago, and a lot has changed, especially with the advent of practical HDTV cards. Reply
ssiu - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkAre there any image quality differences between G8600 / older NVIDIAs / ATIs / no hardware acceleration?
In your previous article http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2923">Coming Soon to HD DVD: Silicon Optix HD HQV you talked about both ATI/NVIDIA flunked the HQV DVD tests when the HQV tests first came out, but now had improved to almost perfect score, but then they all got 0 score on the "(beta) HD HQV" tests. Has the situation improved with newest hardware+driver?
Final Hamlet - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkIt's really great to know that this GPU is better at playing back videos I would never buy because of the DRM crap on it...
It's like buying a car for it's colour... Reply
yzkbug - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkThere is still no retail version of WinDVD HD available. Any news when InterVideo is going to release one? They must be really afraid to repeat thier previous fiasco when thier master key was revoked :) Reply
ZetaEpyon - Friday, April 27, 2007 - link
Even more interesting isn't the GeForce 8600, but the $100 GeForce 8500 that's due out in the coming weeks.
Was this article written a while back or something? I have an 8500GT in hand right now. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkI corrected the statement, we will have our 8500 review sample in the coming weeks :)
Take care,
Anand Reply
kilkennycat - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkAnand, you need to keep an eye on both ZZF and Newegg on release dates for new computer hardware, just in case your review versions don't materialize. The MSI 8500GT (o/c version, irc) was orderable and In Stock at ZZF @10PM Pacific Time on April 16 and continued to be in stock for at least part of April 17. Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkWe know they're available, but if we ran out and purchased every piece of new hardware for testing rather than relying on our partners, that can start to put a pretty sizable dent in the old paycheck. Not that we don't often purchase hardware anyway.... Reply
mmp121 - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkPage 3 paragraph 1, last sentence ends abruptly.
We included both 8600 cards to confirm NVIDIA
Could you comment on what you are confirming? Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkJust confirming that the two 8600s perform the same despite their differences. Thanks for the correction :)
Take care,
Anand Reply
WarlordBB - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkDid I miss it, or did you mention it in a previous article?
What the heck are you using for your HD-DVD drive? Reply
mmp121 - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkMost likely the XBOX360 HD-DVD drive. Or heck, maybe he ripped it to HDD? Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkWe used the Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive. We would never rip a HD-DVD movie to HDD, that would be illegal of course ;) Reply
DerekWilson - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkquite ... of course, inspite of the fact that ripping the HD or BD movie is illegal (DMCA violation), *having* the HD or BD movie on your HDD is protected by fair use ...
as Anand alluded to, though, playing back content that isn't aacs protected would result in lower cpu utilization and wouldn't be reflective of the average consumer experience. Reply
Ard - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkWell, strictly speaking that's not exactly true. Having a ripped movie on your HDD, assuming you legally own the movie in question, is certainly a fair use due to the software archival provisions in the Copyright Act. However, since the DMCA is itself a part of the Act, having the movie on your HDD essentially becomes de facto illegal because the only way you could put it there is through ripping, which, as you stated, is illegal anti-circumvention. It's things like this (the chilling of fair use and extension of copyright owners' rights) that make me hate the DMCA and all who would use it for their gain.
On topic, I'm glad to see that the 8600 line is capable of significantly decreasing CPU utilization. I wasn't expecting a drop from 80+% to 24%. It's really incredible. Reply
PrinceGaz - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkCopying a movie from an optical disc (DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray) to your HDD is perfectly legal as it does not involve interfering with the protection on those files, all you are doing is creating an image-file on your hard-disk which contains all the necessary data on the optical-disc. The image-file can then be mounted with suitable software and played as normal in your preferred media player, with the media-player software handling the decrypting just as it would with an original disc.
It's ripping the movie that contravenes the DMCA as that is the step which involves removing the encryption from the data. Ripping can be done either direct from the original optical disc or from an image-file on your hard-drive, the only difference is that creating an image-file first is an extra step to be performed but on the other hand it simplifies what is involved with each stage and means the only task being performed while reading the original disc is a straight copy to the hard-drive. Having an image on the hard-drive also saves a lot of time if more than one attempt might be needed to perform a successful rip.
On topic, once quad-core CPUs are mainstream in a year or two (with octal-core arriving at the high-end), H.264 decoding on the GPU will be irrelevant really-- nice to have but of no real importance, rather like how the Pentium III and original Athlon rendered hardware MPEG2 decoder cards obsolete. Reply
Ard - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkWell (and don't get me wrong, I hate the DMCA, believe me), your argument would arguably fail under the strict language of the statute. The DMCA defines circumvention as "descrambl[ing] a scrambled work, decrypt[ing] an encrypted work, or otherwise to avoid, bypass, remove, deactivate, or impair a technological measure, without the authority of the copyright owner". A direct copy would probably be viewed as avoiding CSS/AACS/etc. since they exist for the sole purpose of preventing you from making a copy. I personally think your argument is more than valid because you still need a media player to decrypt the image file, but you know content providers would argue the exact opposite. Reply
smilingcrow - Friday, April 27, 2007 - link"On topic, once quad-core CPUs are mainstream in a year or two (with octal-core arriving at the high-end), H.264 decoding on the GPU will be irrelevant really-- nice to have but of no real importance, rather like how the Pentium III and original Athlon rendered hardware MPEG2 decoder cards obsolete."
I thought it was the implementation of hardware assist of MPEG2 decoding on GPUs that was the boon for DVD playback on PCs back in the day with ATI being the pioneers!
It's still useful to have this feature regardless of quad cores from the perspective of lower power consumption, lower CPU heat output which is easier to cool quietly and better multi-tasking abilities. It's a niche feature but for people who use it it's something for nothing especially with the 8500 GT supporting it. Gigabyte have a passive 8500 GT that supports HDCP for $100; my next card I think.
yyrkoon - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkSO, what you're saying is that: You can watch a HD-DVD from HDD, you just can't put it there ? lol, reminds me of one of the laws Canada supposedly had for a while, something similar to: you can download all the pirated software/media you want, you just couldnt store it on any form of media . . .
Anyhow, I wonder how long AMD/ATI is going to stay silent, it seems a good bit of time since we've heard anything from them, at least, in the form of a review. Not that I miss all the fanboyistic comments . . . Reply
BoberFett - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkThe power consumptions graphs show Peak lower than Average... Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkFixed :) Reply
Cascavel - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkI ask out of ignorance, but why did you not try the NERO software for HD playback - I think it is an add-on to NERO 7 / Showtime 3 ? Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkGreat question, but I believe that only PowerDVD/WinDVD support the 8600's hardware acceleration at this point. I will double check :)
Take care,
Anand Reply
Hulk - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkThe Showtime 3 release notes says "nVidia decode" a few generations ago. Perhaps they have updated it or maybe it will work. If you could test with Showtime 3 that would be great. Reply
Cobra Commander - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkI wasn't expecting it to be this dramatic. Nice. Bummer the GTX doesn't have this tech though. :( Reply
kilkennycat - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkEr, its successor-family (89xx??, G9x??) which is now well into design most likely will. Expected out before the end of 2007. Double-precision math etc for the dual role of GPU and general-purpose parallel computation. Maybe with VC1 hardware decode for the little extra icing.... Reply
DigitalFreak - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkLOL. ...and you know this how? Reply
Griswold - Saturday, April 28, 2007 - linkHe doesnt know, he is just guessing/wishful thinking. :p Reply
Cascavel - Friday, April 27, 2007 - linkLikewise, impressed. I think one of these will be going in my HTPC.
And thanks for the review guys, first I have seen on these cards which covered this topic Reply


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