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Capsule Review: Thermaltake Level 10 M Gaming Mouseby Dustin Sklavos on 12/21/2012 5:37 AM EST
- Posted in
- Peripherals
- Gaming
- Mouse
- Thermaltake
32 Comments
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jibz - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkIf you want an adjustable mouse, it's both cheaper and way more adjustable. Plus it looks a lot better. Reply
StevoLincolnite - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkI've been through about a dozen Saitek Cyborg R.A.T mice over the past couple years, while comfortable (To me) and packed with features they just keep breaking on me, thankfully it has decently long warranty.
Mostly though it's the left mouse button or the laser that craps out.
I would just want a mouse (A set of headphones would be good too!) that will last me years without breaking. Reply
jibz - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkAt some point, you might have to wonder if you're not part of the problem. A new mouse every 3 months seem excessive.
Never had any problem with mine. Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket! Just saying. Reply
Zink - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkNewegg reviews seems to indicate they aren't durable. Reply
The0ne - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkSaitek products are usually above average in terms of quality and materials. And while I am not familiar or used all their product lines the ones I have are well made. I even stocked up on their old PC controllers Buy.com clearance them out. Great quality controllers that has lasted years for me. Reply
jibz - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkI'm mot saying they are durable. I don't have any problem with mine, but that's a single case. But 12 mice in 2 years? Come on! Reply
Inteli - Saturday, December 22, 2012 - linkI had a RAT 7 and plan on getting another. mine lasted for almost a full year (new years to new years), except, of all things, the CABLE crapped out. It's probably because I wrapped it around. I had a few tracking issues here and there, but it was mostly just a matter of disconnecting and reconnecting the mouse. not a big issue. I think its pros outweigh its cons. This time i'm getting it in White! :D
(It's plenty durable to me. I would have mine under warranty except it was my fault ;) )
I am in complete agreement with the OP, though the Level 10 mouse I think tops the RAT in the "WTF Is that thing" department. Reply
corpsegrind3r - Saturday, December 22, 2012 - linkNope, he's right, they do break. I spent around $90 on the R.A.T. 7 and the scroll wheel broke after 2 months of use. I google'd the issue and found that many people had the same problem. I gotta say it was a great mouse while it worked but I'll stay away from them because they have a history for breaking. Now I have the Logitech G9x. It's not the best fit for my hand by any means but at least I know it'll last for years. Reply
gammonwalker - Sunday, December 30, 2012 - linkI can vouch for that... I recently had to retire my RAT7 after less than a year of use. The mouse would intermittently permanently track a direction (up and to the left) until I blew on the mouse's laser. While that could be simply related to dust or dirt, I've never ever had that happen on another mouse. It's obviously also not very helpful for gaming.
A bit after that it would randomly stop reading the X-axis entirely until I unplugged and re-plugged it. That made for some amusing piloting complications in Planetside 2, where I would accidentally fly my craft directly into the ground trying to make a hard turn.
When it did work it did work nicely, however no where near as good as my recent Deathadder 2013 edition. The lift-off control and precision on the mouse is fantastic. Reply
Papaspud - Monday, December 24, 2012 - linkThe lasers are crap on these, mine didn't last 2 weeks before it started messing up. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, December 21, 2012 - link... what I really appreciate are mice actually designed for my hand as opposed to almost-symmetric designs. I have two left handed Razer Death Adder mice (one for home, one for work); and used Logitech's left handed model before that.
I've never had a sweaty palm issue with one either; but my grip is fairly loose so there's never a been problem with blocked airflow preventing evaporation. Reply
truprecht - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkRazer Death Adder left is the only mouse I'll ever buy for myself again.
Aside from the physical comfort, it also defaults to the right button as the primary click button, meaning you don't have to reverse the mouse buttons in the control panel. Seems like a small thing, but a lot of games don't register the control panel setting, so you have to re-specify the primary button in the game controls. And even then, the primary button will apply to gameplay, but not to menu selection which cannot be switched using the control panel OR the in-game settings. (I'm talking to YOU Bethesda and 2K). Reply
aguilpa1 - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkWhen my Replicator 2 comes in I will make me some real custom mouse bodies just for my hand. Reply
WT - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkYou may have it when you pry it from my cold dead hands. It certainly isn't the best at any one thing, but for $30 it cannot be beat (nor bought anymore, either).
Good review as usual.Wish we had more reviews of a peripheral nature as well. Over-engineered and under functionalitied .. this Level 10 won't be joining my Level 10 GT case on my desk. Reply
Tuffrabbit - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkThe Logitech MX518 is still my favorite out of current mouse collection... Reply
Impulses - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkNewegg had the G500 for $34 during Black Friday weekend... Hard to beat for that price, nearly bought two myself. :p Reply
AVP - Friday, December 21, 2012 - link"It's difficult to quantify strict performance, an issue ameliorated somewhat by the fact that actual performance (dpi, etc.) can often take a distant backseat to user comfort and the software included."
Are you kidding?
No mention of what sensor this mouse uses? Acceleration? Angle snapping?
Also your gallery is broken and you have five pictures of the mouse with no images or mention of the bottom or any suggestion of what type of surface it may or may not be best on. Reply
ChronoReverse - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkA quick Google reveals that it's an Avago ADNS-9800 which still has minor acceleration. Reply
BrightCandle - Saturday, December 22, 2012 - linkThese basic objective measures are far important to report on than anything else. This isn't a review without actually talking about the flaws with the mouses tracking. Reply
SodaAnt - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkI'm getting page not found errors on the gallery on the "The Thermaltake Level 10 M in Practice" page. When I click through to see bigger pictures it says the gallery isn't found. Reply
garypark - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkIt seems to me that the comfort of a mouse is less subjective than it is simply individually variable depending on who is holding it. No maker of gloves would suggest that we all wear the same size, but does any maker of computer mice build "sized" mice? Having a mouse that is the correct size for you hand may be the single most important factor in the "subjective" impression of comfort. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkI've seen a few custom manufacturers who've sold customized mice in the past (not sure if they still do). I ran across them years ago searching for something left handed an ergonomic; but with sticker prices of several hundred dollars each they were extremely far from mainstream.
I don't see this changing until/unless 3d printing approaches cost/quality competitiveness with mass produced injection molding. Reply
colonelciller - Saturday, December 22, 2012 - link3D printed parts are brittle... they should not be compared to injection moulded parts Reply
Cannyone - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkI have this Thermaltake mouse and am using it now. But honestly I don't like it. The reason is that there are just too many buttons on the left side. This makes it far more difficult to pick up. The original BMW design this was taken from was different.
Sometimes simpler, as in fewer or even smaller buttons, is better. So why do all the new mice that hit the market now days have to come with 8, 10... 15 buttons? Is it just a marketing metric? Whatever the reason I wish some of these companies would at least take the time to build a prototype and let someone "use it" to see if its really functional. Reply
versesuvius - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkWhat a monster! Who would in his right mind buy this? Or actually use this? It is certain to cause blisters on more than a couple of spots on the hand. Reply
MadAd - Friday, December 21, 2012 - linkI wouldnt game with that if it was the last mouse on the planet.
I have no idea why dont they actually confer with gamers, some of us have been gaming with these peripherals for decades now. I wish I could design my own, it wouldnt look like that for sure. Reply
liffie420 - Saturday, December 22, 2012 - linkALL I have to say is the greatest mouse EVER is the Logitech Marble Trackman FX . Bought one in 1998 (14 years ago) and it still works like a beast. IT was expensive for the time $80 I think, but I would gladly drop $150 for a new one these days. If you havent heard of it look it up. IT is trackball but argubaly the greatest one ever invented. Ig you can get past the looks, give it 15 or 20 minutes and you will never want to use anything else. Reply
DiHydro - Sunday, December 23, 2012 - link"And then you get into missing features. On-the-fly DPI switching is grand, but the "DPI shift" functionality of some of Logitech's gaming mice and both of Corsair's is desperately missed. My G500 doesn't have it and I live without because the thing was designed before the concept even existed, but it's here now, and its absence in a brand new premium product is notable."
It would have been a sore mistake if they didn't include on-the-fly DPI switching. You mention that your G500 cannot, but my G5, and the MX518 which it is based off of have it. This is even without the Logitech setpoint software installed. Are you certain that the DPI button on your G500 doesn't switch your DPI settings between 400, 800, and 1600 for defaults? Reply
jonjonjonj - Sunday, December 23, 2012 - linkfirst the bmw case and now this? two of the ugliest products i have ever seen. time i ditch that bmw engineering team. if 80-90% of people are right handed why design mice to be ambidextrous? let left handed people either suffer and use a right handed mouse or go buy a left handed mouse instead of ruining mice that right handed people use. yes i am left handed prejudice. left handed weirdos. Reply
Evil_Sheep - Monday, December 24, 2012 - linkVery stoked that anandtech reviewed this mouse. I was all set to impulse buy this on boxing day but now having read this review I will make sure to try it out in person first. Despite what others have said in the comments, I think the 10M looks f*cking awesome and gives off the impression of a luxury vehicle or a high-end smartphone, which is more than can be said of most of its competition. You can criticize the price but look at the competition, eg the Logitech G700 at $100 comes across as extremely low-rent in comparison. There are plenty of high-end mice in the $80-120 range but none have the industrial design or craftsmanship of the 10M save the Corsair M60/90. If you're going to spend such an absurd amount of $ on an overpriced component, ditching the cheap plastic and rubber for high-end materials is the least that I expect.
I used to be a logitech fan but I have had so many of their mice die on me that I have almost given up on them. IMHO if you spend $50 on a mouse it should last more than 3yrs. MS mice also drive me crazy with their lack of scroll wheel detents which ironically windows also can't handle. And razers are all, to my hand, abnormally oversized. So the search continues.... Reply
piiman - Monday, December 24, 2012 - link"I think the 10M looks f*cking awesome and gives off the impression of a luxury vehicle or a high-end smartphone"
seriously what looks like a luxury car on it? And a high end Smartphone? since those two things look nothing alike I find it hard to see either in this mouse.lol
I don't think it looks anything like either nor would I want a mouse to look like them.
To me it looks more like a autobot transformer. Reply
thermaltake_uk - Wednesday, January 09, 2013 - linkhttp://www.ttesports.com/press/Press_News_detail.a... Reply


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Kids and teens do better in school when parents are involved in their academic lives. Attending parent–teacher conferences is a way to be involved and help your child succeed.
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I've been working with IMCO Stoneware 1-C for a few months now, loving it as a mid-firing stoneware (texture and color).
However, when I fire it to the advertised maturation temperature of ^6, I see a good bit of bloating.
At ^5 everything seems fine.
To cover the normal basic troubleshooting, I've noticed bloating between ^5 and ^6 considering:
- Same clay batch and even BAG
- Same bisque firing
- No carbon coring noticeable when broken open
- Pyrometric cones and digital readouts confirming temperature
- Same glaze treatments
- Pieces were identical [or as close as possible], part of the same batch
My main issue is that the glazes I have available mature a little better at ^6 than ^5, and if I can't nail this down then I may have to switch clay bodies.
Any thoughts?
-- MrE


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Apple Makes the Switch: iMac G5 vs. iMac Core Duoby Anand Lal Shimpi on 1/30/2006 11:26 PM EST
- Posted in
- Mac
35 Comments
Back to Article
snookie - Friday, February 03, 2006 - linkThe article is very good but surprisingly makes the same mistake as so many other reviews which is to test with only 512MB of ram. The intel imac is a much better machine with more ram and it doesn't make sense to test it with the minimum amount. Also Universal apps are coming fast and furious on a daily basis. I've got 1.5 GB of ram in mine and lots of the little apps I use everyday are already UB and are nice and fast as is the OS and iLife apps. It won't be long before Windows runs on these as well as Linux with Red Hat promising support. Check out Bare Feats for some pretty nice benchmarks including games. Yes, Quake 4 will actually run at a decent speed as well as COD 2.
http://www.barefeats.com/imcd.html">http://www.barefeats.com/imcd.html Reply
csoto - Friday, February 03, 2006 - linkYour only complaints stem from poor choice of models/configuraitons. The 20" unit will provide the added resolution, and BTO options allow up to 2GB on the Core Duo and 2.5GB on the G5 (although a 2GB soDIMM is listed at >$1K!). This is like me complaining that my mini van doesn't have a navigation system, because I was too cheap to buy the model that came with it :)
Also, your assertion that the Core Duo is a "public beta" is absurd. You had zero problems running applications. Word from those around me that are testing Core Duos is that for most applications, you don't even notice Rosetta. Pro Apps users would complain, but they're never early adopters, because their apps always lag at least a few months behind the latest platform (remember the "multiprocessor plug-in" that allowed Photoshop to limp along for so long before a "MP-native" version was released?). This is a solid platform transition, likely exceeding the fairly solid (albeit far more daunting for the day) transition from 680x0 to PPC.
Now if only VMWare would ship Workstation for Mac OS X, then I could ditch the Dell...
Charles Reply
Furen - Sunday, February 05, 2006 - linkHe says he already had an iMac so in order to compare the two I'm guessing he bought the closest-matching one possible. I would hardly do to have an 20" iMac compared with a 17" one in power consumption or running at a different native resolution. I do agree that the RAM limits the system insanely but he went for default specs rather you start improving all the draw backs each system has.
The reason why he says this is like a public beta is not because Rosetta sucks or anything of the sort but because there are almost no universal binaries besides those shipped by Apple. Apple chose to bring these systems forwards (at first they had said the systems would come out mid '06, I believe) without having enough of a software base and that's a pretty big drawback. Reply
jepapac - Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - linkI was just wondering if the graphics adapter on the iMac is upgradeable since it is using pciexpress. Does anyone know? Reply
aliasfox - Thursday, February 02, 2006 - linkI'm guessing its actually the laptop X1600 in the iMac, soldered onto the motherboard. Unfortunate, yes, but given the primary audience that the iMac is targeted at, I'm not surprised.
Your average home user would rather buy a new $600-1000 box instead of dropping ~$500 for more RAM, a bigger hard drive, new graphics, and a faster processor. Reply
Eug - Thursday, February 02, 2006 - link
I'm guessing its actually the laptop X1600 in the iMac
Why? Previous iMacs used desktop GPU parts. Reply
aliasfox - Thursday, February 02, 2006 - linkI read somewhere that the 9600 in the second generation iMac G5 was a laptop part, and I therefore assumed that since Apple used the same GPUs in the iMac that it used in PowerBooks (GeForce FX5200, Radeon 9600, X1600), it was sourcing the same parts for both lines.
Also, I've never read about an integrated 9600 or FX5200 as a desktop part. I might be mistaken though. Reply
nizzki - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkAny idea which compilers apple has used for their apps? For example, for the PPC apps I assume apple uses the IBM compiler heavily optimized for PPC instead of GCC.
If that is the case, with the intel compiler for osx is in beta, the current somewhat lackluster performance of the core duo might be skewed in PPC's favor. This would be further exacerbated if Apple used GCC to compile the macintel apps, since it is unlikely to be heavily optimized for the core duo architecture. Reply
Commodus - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkJust a heads-up, Anand: the Core Duo iMac is the first iMac model to support desktop spanning, not just mirroring. So if you want, you can hook up even a 23" Cinema Display and get a huge amount of extra workspace. I'd probably only do that with a 20" iMac and the 256 MB video memory option, though. Reply
ingoldsby - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkPerhaps it's just me, but the non native apps I run seem to run at about the same speed as they natively ran on my G5. While the universal binaries run much faster.
I would love to see this comparison revisited with a realistic amount of memory in the machine (ie. 1gb+) instead of limiting the machine to 512mb. Reply
Illissius - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkCompared to native applications, obviously, it's less than ideal; on the other hand, compared to, say, PearPC, it's pretty amazing. (I don't have any data and haven't tried it myself, but from what I've heard I'd suspect it runs at 5%-ish performance; compared to that, 30-70% is a minor miracle.)
I know it won't interest the end user any whether it could've been even worse, but wanted to point it out, nonetheless ;). Reply
yacoub - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkI wonder how it compares in game- oh, right, Mac. Hehehe ;) Reply
DrZoidberg - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkthere is one very popular game on mac.
World of warcraft....could anandtech pls include a benchie comparing mac with intel core duo vs g5 in wow? It would be interesting to see if apple switching to intel means macs are better at games (or not). Reply
fitten - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkIs the Universal Binary out for WoW yet? Reply
Cusqueno - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkI have a 20" iMac Core Duo and with the default 512 RAM it was bad performance. About 5-10 fps in IronForge and 20-25 elsewhere. When I upgraded to 2 GB RAM it has improved greatly, maybe 10 - 20 in IF and 30 - 40 on the road. I guess this is due to Rosetta using lots of RAM.
As of last night, there was no Universal binary. But today is patch/reboot day so might be pushed when I get off work. It is supposed to be included with version 1.9.3 according to the WoW forums. Reply
fitten - Thursday, February 02, 2006 - linkThat's pretty awesome considering that you're running WoW in emulation (Rosetta). Reply
vortmax - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkSeeing that Rosetta is needed for all MS and Adobe apps. and since using Rosetta seems to take lots of memory, it would be nice to see how it runs with 1gb. Also, some benchmarks from Photoshop would be nice :)
Thanks Anand! Reply
Lifted - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - link"... but those are the ones we want to measure anyways so they have to be there." Reply
Eug - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkDoes turning off one core turn off half the cache?
ie. Is it really Yonah Core Solo, or is it Yonah Celeron M? Reply
maconlysource - Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - linkWhere did you get the toolbar single proc- dual proc utility.
I installed the developer pkg on my Intel iMac but can't find it?
Can you email me it?
Pete. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkTurning off one core leaves the full 2MB of cache for the other core to use since it is a shared L2.
Take care,
Anand Reply
Eug - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - link
Turning off one core leaves the full 2MB of cache for the other core to use since it is a shared L2.
Take care,
Cool thanks.
P.S. I have read elsewhere that the new iMac Core Duo uses less than half of the CPU's processing power to play back H.264 Hi-Def 1920x1080 video at a full 24 fps. If true, that's great, because my iMac 2.0 chokes on that. It plays back relatively smoothly, but only at about 12-15 fps.
That bodes well for a future single-core Yonah Mac mini.
Then again, probably not, considering that I suspect the iMac Core Duo does so well on H.264 playback because of its Radeon X1600. I'd doubt the Mac mini would get anything close to that any time soon. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkMax CPU utilization (across both CPUs) when playing a 1080p stream scaled to fit the screen is about 60%, but it usually hovers below 50%. I am not sure whether or not the X1600's H.264 decode acceleration is taken advantage of (I doubt it), I'm trying to find out now. Also remember that on the PC side, the X1600 will only accelerate up to 720p.
Take care,
Anand Lal Shimpi - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkI just confirmed with ATI, the X1600's H.264 decode acceleration is currently not supported under OS X. ATI is working with Apple on trying to get the support built in, but currently it isn't there.
Take care,
Anand Reply
Eug - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - link
I just confirmed with ATI, the X1600's H.264 decode acceleration is currently not supported under OS X. ATI is working with Apple on trying to get the support built in, but currently it isn't there.
Thanks again for the info. That's actually good news in a way. Things are looking up for that single-core Yonah Mac mini HTPC. Reply
andrep74 - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkIsn't performance/Watt a function of the CPU, not the platform? Reply
Kyteland - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkThat picture of Jobs doesn't say "PC vs Intel" it says "PowerPC vs Intel". Jobs is just standing in the way. He's comparing the old mac to the new mac. Reply
Calin - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkYou could think about it that way - but in the end, the buyer is interested on the total energy consumption/heat production (as this is what he pays for, and what he must get rid of).
Have you heard of the Toyota D4D engine? It has a record of 2.4 liter (less than a gallon) diesel fuel used per a hundred kilometers (60 miles). However, the same engine on a Land Cruiser 4x4 all options will get you much less (four times less maybe).
It doesn't worths talking about performance per watt at the processor level, it is better at the platform level. Reply
BUBKA - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkWere these benches done with a USB 2.0 device plugged in? Reply
Furen - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkI was under the impression that Intel was blaming Microsoft for that, so that would not apply to OSX, though if the driver works perfectly for every platform except Napa I'd guess its a hardware problem that MS will fix in software (which is well enough as long as it works). The power consumption difference is probably less than 10W anyway. It matters on a notebook but hardly matters with a desktop.
ohnnyj - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkI have already preorded one (did so on the day they were announced), but now I am having serious doubts about keeping the order (does not ship until the 15th). The only thing that really worries me is if Apple will release new MacBooks when Intel releases the Conroe processor. I would think by that time (fall?) they would have most of the programs ported (i.e. Photoshop) and then an even better processor to run it with. I have been waiting so long for a laptop,...decisions, decisions. Reply
Furen - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkI would say you should tough it out for a bit. Like Anand said, this is basically a Public Beta test. Kind of sucks that Apple brought out a 32bit version of the OS considering that it could've been x86-64 native if Apple had waited for a couple of quarters. Then again, it makes no difference if the OS is not 64 bits yet, since a 64 bit version would be able to run 32 bit apps anyway. Reply
IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkI wonder if Rosetta itself doesn't take advantage of multi-thread... Reply
IntelUser2000 - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkWait, doesn't X1600 use H.264 decoding on hardware?? Reply
smitty3268 - Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - linkIt does if the drivers are set up to use it properly. Given that Windows users only got this about a month ago I'd say it probably isn't doing that yet on Macs. Could be, though. Reply


text:
1 The Critters & Me
1403 Agua Fria St.
Literally a business that began off the back of a truck, The Critters & Me has grown and grown again to its current iteration on Agua Fria Street. But through its growth, the impetus behind the business has stayed the same: the need for safe and nutritional pet food. According to the store's manager, Maureen Havey, owner Laura Moore's extensive research on nutrition and background in homeopathy led her to believe "animals that have optimum nutrition do not succumb to animal illnesses" as those fed otherwise can.
"Our thought is to spend more money on the nutrition, so you spend less trying to heal them later," Havey says. Accordingly, the store doesn't carry foods with corn, wheat or soy since those fillers, Havey says, are often allergy-causing and genetically engineered. And these various considerations are only the tip of the iceberg. Fortunately, the store's staff offers free consultations so you can always find exactly what you and your pet need.
2 Teca Tu, Sanbusco Market Center, 500 Montezuma Ave., 505-982-9374
3 Zoe & Guido's Pet Boutique, 1441 Paseo de Peralta, 505-988-2500


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Intel Dual-Core Mobile Ivy Bridge Launch and i5-3427U Ultrabook Reviewby Jarred Walton on 5/31/2012 12:01 AM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
- Intel
- Ivy Bridge
- Laptops
- Ultrabook
64 Comments
Back to Article
marioyohanes - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkIntel should learn from Apple users for the keyboard design... We all know how much Apple users hate white keyboard in previous MacBook models, that's why Apple is using black keyboard now... Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkHahaha... I realized I never took a picture of the open laptop and so I used the image Intel sent along. I'll post an updated picture to the article in a moment, but suffice it to say that the review sample doesn't have a white keyboard. Reply
marioyohanes - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkI love the keyboard design on your new pic... :) Reply
kamalppc - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - linkYou can find the reviews here -
http://ultra-book.co/core-i5-3427u-review/ Reply
mcquade181 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkI guess Apple users must value asthetics over funtionality!
From a useablity point of view black keyboards are horrible.
In low light conditions it is very difficult to see individual keys, which, unless you can touch type, makes them very hard to use.
I suspect that's why there is so much desire for backlit keyboards. Reply
Concillian - Sunday, June 03, 2012 - linkWe should make keyboards for people who can't touch type?
This is 2012 dude, if you can't touch type you have a problem. Everything you do in the business world and half the things in todays social world require using a keyboard of some kind as an input.
Catering hardware (and software) to the people who can't use them right ends up hindering productivity for those who are actually productive on their computer. Reply
Argedut - Sunday, June 10, 2012 - linkYou're totally right. Also if you don't understand the dewey decimal system don't even BOTHER looking for a job. Am I right? Reply
iwod - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkI am amazed by the Chipset TDP and die size, But as transistor shrinks but I/O lanes remain constant, may be we could further include things inside the chipset? Things like an SSD Controller? Or few years down the road there will be no more Chipset, just a SoC. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkThe SSD controller should be right on the CPU die right next to the memory controller. But I guess Intel doesnt mind getting totally devoured by Apple, who was actually smart enough to make a chip with a flash controller. Granted its not a very fast one, but at least it is there.
There is no reason why every new computer should not have at least 32GB of flash that reads just as fast as DRAM, and with DRAM caching, would basically write just as fast too. With the controller in the cpu it lowers the cost of 32GB to just a few dollars.... the current spot price of four 8Gbitx8 MLC NAND chips is just $18. With a good integrated flash controller, the lower latencies on random reads could bring the real world random read speeds well past even a Vertex 4. Reply
ZeDestructor - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkWhat exactly is the difference between the QS77 and the QM77? As far as I can see, there's no reason to use the QM77 at all since the QS77 has a better TDP and power usage than the QM77 while retaining all the features... Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkPrice. Reply
ZeDestructor - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkAnd what's the difference in price? I shouldn't think its that much a big difference in between the two compared to, say, the CPU cost... Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkThe chart we put together didn't include this information, but QS77 is targeted at SFF systems, so it has slightly lower power characteristics and it comes in a 22x22mm package instead of the 25x25mm packaging used on the other chipsets. Interestingly, even UM77 is 25x25mm, and that seems like the perfect chipset to have a smaller footprint. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkOh, nevermind: it's there. You just need to look for it. Reply
ZeDestructor - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkStill no price info though, I had to go Google it up :(
QS77 is USD53 vs QM77 which is USD48.
To me eating 5$ worth of profit to gain some battery life is worth it, and also allows for smaller board designs. Once you factor in economies of scale, I don't see why the QS77 can't lose at least a further USD2 if the QM77 is cut out entirely and become even better value.
Source: http://laptoport.com/2011/12/28/intel-will-unveil-...
Its a good chart, just needs a price line ;) Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkIntel didn't release pricing information, so I'd have to go to other sources to see what Intel has said in the past. Of course, it's basically meaningless to talk about chipset prices as the only people buying chipsets are the OEMs and motherboard manufacturers. Sadly, those are the same folks that will save $10 in most cases to ship a crappy LCD in place of something much better. Reply
thunderising - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkWow, even with HD4000, IVB dual cores perform terribly in games.
And even now, I'm pretty sure these are priced wayy above the old and new Llano Parts.
I give my vote to AMD's Trinity this round Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkDon't jump ahead of the data: Dual-core Ivy Bridge ULV parts have generally weak performance in graphics. In a 17W TDP, it's very likely the maximum GPU clocks are not coming anywhere near 1150MHz on some titles. I suspect the standard voltage parts will be withing 5-10% of the quad-core parts for HD 4000 performance.
As for AMD, their ULV/LV parts take some major GPU performance cuts as well. The A10-4655M will have GPU clocks that are 30% lower than the A10-4600M, while the A6-4455M has lower clocks and half as many Radeon cores. Given how far the A6 is cut back to fit in a 17W TDP, I don't expect it to fare much better on games. Reply
ananduser - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkWell let's wait for a review first shall we ? :) Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkSure, before we make any final statements, but based on the clocks and core counts we can certainly make a pretty good guess of where Trinity will rank with LV/ULV configurations. It's sort of like Brazos in that aspect, which is to say cutting the GPU or CPU down that far isn't going to help performance. On the compute side, though, funny things happen and compute doesn't always scale directly with core counts and clock speeds. Heck, look at the i5-3470 review from Anand: HD 2500 is sometimes 1/3 the performance of HD 4000. Ouch.
Anyway, let's make some wagers. My guess on A6-4455M is that it will be about half as fast as the A10-4600M in games, while delivering about 80% of the single-threaded performance and less than half of the multi-threaded performance. The A10-4655M should do better, but it will probably still be 20-25% slower than A10-4600M for games, maybe 90% of the single-threaded performance, and 80% of the multi-threaded performance. Reply
ananduser - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkI'm going to chicken out, out of this one :) Reply
Hector2 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkJarred is spot on. There's a mobility review on another tech website that shows how badly Llano's performance dives when fitting it into the lower TDP platform as compared to IVB. Reply
ssiu - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkSo what is the holdup in getting 17W mobility Trinity review? Didn't AMD announce the 17W part at the same time as the 35W part? (Unlike Intel who announced the quad Ivy first, and 17W part was under NDA until now.) Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkGetting hardware. No one is shipping the LV/ULV Trinity stuff yet, and AMD didn't send out a prototype with one or both of those chips. They may not be under NDA, but they're not available for purchase anywhere that I know of. Reply
R3MF - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - link"Given the 17W and 25W TDP on the A6-4455M and A10-4655M, they could easily fit in similar sized laptops (e.g. HP's "Sleekbooks"). "
Unfortunately HP are being utter cretins and only offering Trinity in the 15.6" Sleekbook, and not the 14" version.
WHY! Reply
Spunjji - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkBecause Intel, duh. :/ Reply
R3MF - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linki'm not sure that logic applies.
they allow the 15.6" Sleekbook to roll with an AMD APU.........................
but why not the 14" Envy 4! Reply
kallogan - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkSo ULV gpu base clocks are half of regular core i7 HD 4000. Not surprising they are not performing very well.
On the cpu side it's pretty awesome. I mean Max dual core turbo is 3,0 ghz for the highest ulv cpu. I guess it's possible to run on turbo forever if the cooling system allows it. Too bad it's only BGA.
I don't know if there is 17 inches notebooks with ulv on board. Saw some 17 inch sitting at 10-15W while idling even with regular core i5. Would love a low power 17 inch. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkThe HD 4000 ULV clocks are interesting. Base clocks are very low, but maximum clocks are quite high. WIth better cooling and configurable TDP (e.g. TDP Up or whatever it's called), it's possible there will be Ultrabooks that manage to get within 10% of the quad-core HD 4000 for graphics performance. However, Intel is only guaranteeing a rather low 350MHz iGPU clock, so in practice I bet average gaming clocks will be in the 700-900MHz range. Reply
IntelUser2000 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkIf there's one thing Apple is clearly ahead is managing thermals. Macbook Air's graphics performance is pretty darn close to top performance. Reply
mikk - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkWhy you don't record the frequency used in games with gpu-z? This would be interesting. And it would be also interesting to see how it performs with a disabled cpu turbo to give more headroom for the iGPU. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkGPU-Z doesn't detect HD 3000/4000 frequency; in fact, I'm not sure anyone has a utility that correctly reports HD 4000 core clocks. If I'm wrong, please let me know as I'd love to be able to do a FRAPS run and log the iGPU clocks! If you know of one, please post and/or email me. Reply
mikk - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkJarredWalton: "GPU-Z doesn't detect HD 3000/4000 frequency; in fact, I'm not sure anyone has a utility that correctly reports HD 4000 core clocks. If I'm wrong, please let me know as I'd love to be able to do a FRAPS run and log the iGPU clocks! If you know of one, please post and/or email me"
You are wrong, gpu-z 0.6.2 fully supports the HD4000, you can "log to file" the frequency. I have tried it myself on a Desktop HD4000. It's interesting. Due to some driver issues some games did not run with the max turbo frequency ony my Desktop 77W model. It's fixed with driver build 2752. There are several turbo steps between base 350/650 and max turbo 1150 Mhz. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkGoing to go check now... I think I might have been running an older version (6.0?) I'll update the article when I have some details. Thanks for the heads up -- GPU-Z has failed to provide any useful information on HD 3000 for so long that I never noticed anything had changed! :-) Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, June 01, 2012 - linkI've posted a follow up article, in case you don't see it over in Pipeline:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5878/mobile-ivy-brid... Reply
vegemeister - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkCPU idle power doesn't mean much when you have to drive the backlight for a 17" screen. Smaller screens are more portable anyhow, and look better given the same resolution. Reply
sonofsanta - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkSo are stardates always one month ahead of the real date, even if that stardate doesn't technically exist on the Gregorian calendar? ;)
(I'm guessing you meant May 31...) Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkOh crap! And there aren't even 31 days in June! Hahahaha.... wrote that too late at night after a long day of testing/writing! But of course, actual Star Trek Stardates are never expressed with a month and year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stardate Reply
mschira - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkI am amazed how Intel professionals fail to realize that if a laptop does not have VGA out not even with a converter (note apple has VGA out with the right converter) it's useless for presentations.
This may be different for other people but for me one of the most important jobs of a laptop is to run a presentation at conferences and this sort.
I have yet find a conference location where you could hook up your laptop via display port. Or even DVI. They simply don't exist.
-> no VGA = useless.
M. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkHDMI? I've seen plenty of HDMI projectors at least. But this is a prototype, and there will undoubtedly be Ultrabooks with VGA outputs (possibly via a converter). Anyway, Ultrabooks are a specialized market, so I don't expect most of them to target business users that need VGA outputs. Just because some people find VGA indispensable doesn't mean there aren't many others who wish the connector would just die already. It's basically just hanging around for legacy purposes, sort of like PS2 mice/keyboard connectors. In five more years I hope to be rid of all the old style connections on the majority of products (with those who absolutely need them catered to by niche products). Reply
A5 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkDon't buy an ultrabook if that's really important to you then. HP, Dell, etc will all sell your company "professional" laptops that have all of that legacy functionality. Reply
Hector2 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkYou realize, of course, that Intel doesn't sell or make laptops --- they make chips. The same ones that are inside Apple's Macs. And I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of engineers at Intel that use laptops for projecting presentations. For that matter, I'm pretty sure that their counterparts at HP, Asus, Lenovo, Dell, etc, do too. :-) Reply
name99 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkAnd why can't people buying ultrabooks use exactly the same convertor that Apple customers use?
This seems to me a winge exactly along the lines of "OMG they don't have a floppy slot anymore --- AND no parallel port". Reply
mschira - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkBecause if the chipset doesn't support VGA a simple adapter won't work.
The chipset targeted for ultrabooks does not support VGA.
Ultrabooks are perfect for presentations or conferences. They are light so it is easy to carry them around all day. But if they don't have any VGA connectivity they are useless.
M. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkIf they use DisplayPort a simple adapter will work. DP->VGA adapters are all active devices that require nothing on the part of the source device. The only purpose of having on-board VGA is to have an on-board VGA port, since you can't do mini-DVI or HDMI to VGA in the first place. Reply
mschira - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkfor serial port you can get a very simple USB to serial adapter, They are active converters but the logic is so small it fits in the plug. That doesn't work for VGA.
Floppys and CD-ROM take a lot of space. (and work perfectly external).
One could accept a passive VGA adapter (like apple) but NO VGA is just a killer. Reply
IntelUser2000 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkThe low performance being attributed to drivers in Civ V just might be the most accurate one. Here's a statement from RWT's Ivy Bridge article.
"Intel is planning to reduce the driver overhead to comparable levels when measured in CPU cycles per draw call."
So for current Intel drivers the CPU overhead for a draw call is High. High number of objects in Civ V means there are lots of draw calls are happening. The overhead might be in acceptable range for most other games, but maybe not for Civ V.
For high TDP chips, high number of draw calls and high overhead causes it to be CPU bound, and the GPU isn't being utilized. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkI have a bunch of other inside information on Civ5, but I was told it's "strictly confidential" so I didn't feel I could discuss it. Basically, drivers are part of the problem. The rest, well, let's just say that the way Civ5 does some things is sort of a pathological worst-case scenario for HD 3000/4000. Reply
IntelUser2000 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkIt's not just Civ 5, it applies to Total War as well, which is another RTS with LOTS of units on the battle, and I think to a much less extent even Starcraft 2. Reply
JarredWalton - Sunday, June 03, 2012 - linkI think TWS2 and SC2 both use instancing, which can reduce some operations that would otherwise incur CPU overhead. If you look at our performance results for TWS2 and SC2 with HD 4000, they're not quite as bad as Civ5 relative to other games:
HD 4000 Quad-core is 2/3 of Llano 6620G performance in TWS2, and it's actually slightly faster in SC2. Civ5 on the other hand, Llano is 70% faster. Interestingly, on Trinity, those three titles do appear to be some of the worst on HD 4000. (http://www.anandtech.com/show/5831/amd-trinity-rev... I'm not sure what the cause is for the dramatic change in SC2, other than perhaps the CPU performance improvements in Trinity really help. Llano is almost certainly CPU limited in SC2, even with HD 6620G. Reply
Oatmeal25 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkShift+End.
Ultrabooks are almost there (for anyone doing more than web.) They just need to take fewer shortcuts with screen, GPU and storage and put less emphasis on CPU. Consistent build quality and lower prices wouldn't hurt either.
Wish Intel would work harder on their Integrated GPUs. I have an HD3000 in my Lenovo Y570 and when it's in use (also has a GT 555M with Optimus switching) dragging windows in Win7 is choppy. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkBut there's no "End" key, which is why I list the Fn+Right key combination. Just using Shift+Right, or Control+Shift+Right doesn't trigger the issue I experienced much if at all; it's when I have to hit a lot of keys that it gets iffy. Like Fn+Control+Shift+Right to do "select to end of document" frequently ends up with the Control key registered as pressed when I'm done. So then I have to tap it just to let the OS know I've released the key. Reply
mikk - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkJarredWalton: "The HD 4000 ULV clocks are interesting. Base clocks are very low, but maximum clocks are quite high. WIth better cooling and configurable TDP (e.g. TDP Up or whatever it's called), it's possible there will be Ultrabooks that manage to get within 10% of the quad-core HD 4000 for graphics performance. However, Intel is only guaranteeing a rather low 350MHz iGPU clock, so in practice I bet average gaming clocks will be in the 700-900MHz range"
Why you don't record the frequency used in games with gpu-z? This would be interesting. And it would be also interesting to see how it performs with a disabled cpu turbo to give more headroom for the iGPU. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkWorking on it (see above). I'll update the article when I have some results. Reply
thejoelhansen - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkI see that next gen quad core part, 3720QM (2.6 GHZ), in the mix. However, there wasn't a quad core from last gen. Any chance of an update with a 26xx - 27xx part?
I realize the article was more about the ULV and new dual core IVB chips for ultra books, but I'm kinda curious how all these new duals stack up to last gen's quads. Might be interesting... ?
Anyway, thanks for the well written and documented article and benchmarks (as always). :) Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkThere's always Mobile Bench. Here's the comparison you're after:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/608?vs=327 Reply
Yangorang - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkSo do you guys know what kind of frequencies the GPU was running at while benchmarking games? I am curious as to whether better cooling / lower ambient temps could actually net you signaficantly better or worse framerates. Reply
name99 - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - link"There is an unused mini-PCIe slot just above the SSD, which might also support mSATA"
The last time we went through this (with comments complaining about companies using their own SSD connectors, not mSATA) the informed conclusion seemed to be that mSATA was, at least right now, a "proto-spec" --- a nice idea that was not actually well-defined enough to translate into real, inter-compatible, products. The wikipedia section on mSATA, while not exactly clear, seems to confirm this impression.
So what's up here? Is mSATA a real (as in, I can go buy an mSATA drive from A, slot it into an mSATA slot from B, and have it work)? If not, then why bother with speculation about whether slots do or don't support it? Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkIt was more a thought along the lines of: "If this were a retail laptop, instead of an SSD they could use and HDD and put an mSATA caching drive right here." Can you buy mSATA drives and use them in different laptops? I don't know -- Apple and ASUS for sure have incompatible "gumstick drive" connections. I was under the impression that mSATA was a standard but apparently it's not very strict if that's the case. It would benefit the drive makers to all agree on something, though, as right now they might have to end up making several different SSD models if they want to support MBA, Zenbook, other mSATA, etc. Reply
Penti - Friday, June 01, 2012 - linkmSATA is a standard, that Apple and Asus don't use. You can normally use the mSATA slot for a retail mSATA SSD or any conforming product. Some mSATA-slots can also support PCIe obviously, but they should be few in todays laptops. Lenovos, HPs and DELL should be just fine running a real SSD instead of a cache drive there. Just look at what other users have done on the same model to be sure. They only appear to be stupid about it mSATA SSD + HDD is an almost perfect solution. mSATA is specified by SATA-IO in SATA 3.1 specifications and an earlier JEDEC specification specifies the mechanical design i.e. same size as a normal mini PCIe card. Not all mSATA slots will have PCIe though and not all mini PCIe slots will support SATA, you really have to know before hand, it requires some additional circuitry to have a switchable/multisignal slot. It's not like it is costly for Asus and Apple to order their custom designs. You can question Asus decision though. Apple made theirs before mSATA had made any headway. It's not like 256GB mSATA SSDs aren't around. Sandisk (that Asus uses) have theirs in various form-factors though, both custom and standardized, but including mSATA sandisk.com/business-solutions/ssd/form-factor-development It's they who finance and produces different boards for different customers, as it's fairly easy PCB's and they know the electrical requirements already it's not a big deal. Reply
pityme - Thursday, May 31, 2012 - linkJarred,
How does Ivy Bridge compare for CAD products specifically SolidWorks?
Thanks Reply
Frenetic Pony - Friday, June 01, 2012 - linkWhich is disappointing, because that was initially the laptop I was hoping to replace my dinky, falling apart little netbook with. But the worst battery life and performance of the lot, Intel or AMD, means I'm definitely avoiding that stupid thing. Reply
Death666Angel - Sunday, June 03, 2012 - linkYou do realize that it has the smallest battery out of the bunch as well? It is also the only 11.6" laptop I think. The 13" pendants will have more standard 50Whr batteries. Reply
lootmaster - Monday, June 04, 2012 - linkWhat kind of a performance gap is there between the mobile and desktop lines? Is a Sandy Bridge Mobile i7 more like a desktop i5 or i3? Couldn't find a good answer online. Reply


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What acquirers do after the ink dries can make -- or break -- a deal's successComments Email Print
Too often I see insufficient consideration given to mismatched cultures or the hidden costs of aligning corporate policies and procedures with devastating effects on value outcomes. Too often I see the approach to evaluating opportunities as a mechanical exercise of evaluating intoxicating cash flows and inflated projections and returns on investments when obvious integration issue costs are trivialized or just plain ignored.
We all have anecdotal evidence or war stories of failed acquisitions due to a buyer's inability to pull it all together, yet still I see buyers focus too intently on the financial mechanics and fail to plan properly for after the ink dries.
Very recently, I witnessed a classic example of failing to plan ahead and execute during a 2.5-year rollup effort. The buyer had identified a segmented market of niche distributors and identified some "real" and "significant" synergies that could be obtained based on economies of scale. The increased distribution network, once acquired, would support increased levels of production at a successful manufacturing facility the group already owned.
In addition, by consolidating the now larger group's purchases from common vendors, significant price discounts based on quantity purchasing could be obtained.
Each of the acquired distributors was a successful enterprise at the time of acquisition and purchase prices were, for the most part, at reasonable multiples. All the ducks were in a row.
The synergy play hinged on the various acquired distributors switching to purchasing certain base products from the central manufacturing facility and coordinating their purchase of other related products through a centralized group purchasing program. Throughout the deal, top management was intently focused on the next deal and paid little attention to the ever growing list of integration issues. Key integration problems that arose included:
Prior to acquisition, management had not devised a clear game plan for integration. The quick pace of growth and focus on new deals impaired management's ability to effectively respond to the growing list of issues in a timely manner. In the end, the synergies were not achieved and projections were not met.
Many successful business managers forget the amount of time and effort it took to fine-tune their existing business and assume their skills can quickly bring in line an add-on business. Often, buyers falsely assume a small acquisition will be easy to integrate because of its size.
Truly successful deals consider early in the process the potential costs of integration and dedicate a significant amount of time during the diligence phase to understanding and evaluating the cost of the cultural and corporate policy differences.
Here are a few simple steps you can apply to every acquisition, regardless of size, to avoid the trap of underestimating integration issues and value killers:
I often suggest the real work starts after the ink dries. Working these steps into your acquisition process will help to maximize successful outcomes and investment value.


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