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Lian Li PC-A76X Case Review: The Limits of Aluminumby Dustin Sklavos on 9/30/2012 12:01 AM EST
- Posted in
- Cases/Cooling/PSUs
- Lian Li
61 Comments
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Iketh - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkThanks for sharing my thoughts, not just on this case but Lian Li in general. I want and have always wanted an all-aluminum case for years, but each time I look through Lian Li's stock, I'm left with that feeling of running your nails across a chalk board and I end up with a cheaper case. And that's coming from someone who bought the original Cosmos years ago...
And, please, case engineers, stop including side vents... they're not needed anymore when you have slotted PCI covers... just give us robust intake solutions and that's it. I have never found a side intake fan that didn't rattle the door or make the case humm and I can only imagine how the case in this review would sound with the thin panels... Reply
michaelheath - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI've had a number of aluminum cases over the years, and, to be perfectly honest, the only ones that didn't feel chintzy were the cases that had other materials padding the panels and the frame. There really aren't many realistic benefits to using aluminum aside from weight - which doesn't mean much if you don't move your PC all that often. Aluminum certainly doesn't do much for heat dissipation or noise dampening, and Lian Li isn't alone in winding up with cases with middling performance that rattle and hum (though this particular case seems to avoid that).
According to the rather thorough testing from Bit-Tech several months ago in their article, "The Big Air Cooling Investigation," where a Fractal Design Define R3 was tested with practically every reasonable (and a few unreasonable) configurations, it seems one of the most critical fan locations was in the side panel. Then again, as I mentioned before, the side panel is made of layered steel and plastic, not aluminum.
Perforated PCI covers don't really help much when they aren't in the direct path of convection, especially if they aren't in the direct path of moving air. Typically, they sit below most of the sources of heat in a computer case and don't provide any tangible benefit except for allowing another location for sound to escape. Reply
cashkennedy - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkYou obviously have never had a cooler master wave master , or a cooler master atcs, both are made of aluminum so thick, you cant even bend / dent it if you tried with all your strength. I believe the first year or two lian li was around they made cases out of similarly thick aluminum, and those were the years that aluminum cases got a good reputation, later they all started being made out of sheets thinner then a coke can, and add to that the fact that aluminum helping cool the components was all hype by retards who somehow didnt come to grasp the fact that none of your components are in direct contact with the aluminum (except for possibly the hard drives), so cant be cooled by the case... Reply
Iketh - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkactually there is obvious truth to aluminum keeping the AIR inside the case cooler... steel will act more as an insulator keeping the heat inside while aluminum will transfer that heat through the panels better, but it's negligible to the point of gimmicky Reply
rarson - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkYou've got that backwards. Aluminum is a poor conductor of heat, hence the outside of an aluminum case will likely stay cooler than a steel case. Steel is a good conductor of heat; a steel case gets hotter because it's transferring heat from inside the case to outside through the metal itself. Reply
sor - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkMy BS meter just went off. Nearly all metals are good conductors of heat, but aluminum, copper, and silver are among the best. Aluminum simply has less mass and doesn't RETAIN heat well, but it conducts heat just fine. Reply
Iketh - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linksorry, but you're the one that's backwards, and generally lacking knowledge on the subject as illustrated with this statement:
"Steel is a good conductor of heat; a steel case gets hotter because it's transferring heat from inside the case to outside through the metal itself." Reply
BiggieShady - Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - linkIf steel is a good conductor of heat, aluminum is better. For purely hot air contact it's negligible, however for direct contact it matters - that's why you have aluminum or copper heatsinks instead of steel. Reply
johnsmith9875 - Sunday, October 07, 2012 - linkSteel is a terrible conductor of heat. They're used in cases mainly because its inexpensive and easy to fabricate compared to aluminum. Reply
picobico2006 - Sunday, August 23, 2015 - linkConducibilità termica di alcune sostanze
Sostanza λ W·m-1·K-1 ρ Kg/m3
diamante 1600 3500 - 3600
argento 460 10490
rame 390 8930
oro 320 19250
alluminio laminato 290 2750
ottone 111 8430 - 8730
platino 70 21400
acciaio laminato 52 7850
piombo 35 11300
acciaio inox 17 7480 - 8000 Reply
picobico2006 - Sunday, August 23, 2015 - linkE' viceversa Reply
xc68000 - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkSeriously. I can't get rid of my Wavemaster because literally every new aluminum case I look is crap in comparison. It was designed more for the P4 era and as such doesn't have any 120mm fans (except for the one I cut in the side panel). There is a market, but seems like no one is making cases for it. I've never seen a silverstone, but they look like a premium case I wonder about the panel thickness though.
And seriously...you can see the LianLi badge is on crooked in one of those photos. They have definitely strayed from where they started from. Reply
Captmcnet - Saturday, January 04, 2014 - linkNewEgg has this case listed for $190.
The Lian-Li web site specs show 12 internal 3.5in HDD bays.
Your Sept 2012 review specifies only 9 such bays.
Which is correct please.
Wm McMullen
email@example.com Reply
aguilpa1 - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkMy last two cases have been Lian Li, my first a V1000 about 6 or 7 years ago and that thing was built like an aluminum tank. The panels were thick and strong, I still have it as a media server. Based on that experience my second case a full tower is a PC-P80. While very large and roomy, the aluminum on this case was not as high of quality as the original and the has a lot less features. Somewhere along the way, Lian Li began cutting corners on both their features and quality of their aluminum. I hate to see when companies have a good rep going and they start taking advantage after awhile. My next case probably won't be a Lian Li. Reply
hyrule4927 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkNot really why you're complaining about side vents. I have an Antec 1100 and my GPU temperatures are about 5C lower with a side fan installed. I observed similar benefits from a side intake fan on my old Cooler Master case. Reply
Iketh - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkif you design the intakes efficiently and their flow through the bottom of the case, there is no need for the side intake
side intake = more noise escaping from said GPU and very rarely come with a filter pre-installed, and of course vibration on the side panel Reply
Steveymoo - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkActually, the extra noise part is not necessarily true. When I added a second GPU to my NZXT Hush PC, the GPUs would get so hot, the fans would max out. Instead of paying god knows how much for a new case with more adequate cooling, I drilled a hole into the side of the case, right above the GPUs, and fitted a 140mm Noctua fan, including a grill on the outside, and the rubber mount pins. The panel does not vibrate, and the temperature of my GPUs dropped by around 15C.
As a result, my system runs way quieter under heavy load, and quietens down to a whisper during idle.
A side panel fan is definitely the best solution, it just has to be done right. Reply
JPForums - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkA side panel fan isn't necessarily the best solution. Though, it is the correct answer for many cases, there are cases designed to flow large volumes of air through the case with minimal obstructions. In these cases, a side fan doesn't necessarily help. Silverstone's Raven RV02/ Fortress FT02 have no side panel fan, but produce some of the lowest GPU temperatures on the market. I had a buddy cut a hole in the side panel of an FT02 to mount a fan for the GPUs, thinking he could get the temperatures even lower (very nicely done by the way). Unfortunately, it caused more noise, more turbulence in the airflow, and ultimately, higher temperatures across the board. He even re-cut it for a larger fan, but to no avail. He ended up ditching his modded side panel for an original with no fan.
That said, there are plenty of cases, like the Cooler Master HAF series, where side panel intake is absolutely critical as front intake is clearly obstructed. This type of case isn't necessarily inferior, just different. Done properly, this cooling style isn't really any noisier than the more free flowing style. Given a high end video card or two in this type of case (such as your case), the side fan does in fact reduce overall system noise (as you described). Reply
Sabresiberian - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkI think you are really stretching here to try to make your point. Side vents aren't necessarily more noisy, and if you are getting any kind of increased vibration from a fan - you need to stop using dirt-cheap fans! Seriously!
Personally, I want a side fan. I realize my opinion is influenced from the days when graphics solutions started overpowering case cooling designs to the point where pulling off the side cover and setting up a fan to blow across the video card was a necessity, but I've found that a side fan can still significantly drop the temperature of a card.
You can say proper design makes for a better solution, and certainly that has a lot of truth, but in the end moving air is going to be important enough to some builds that the side fan will be of great benefit. If you don't need or want that, buy a different case.
;) Reply
rarson - Monday, October 01, 2012 - link"if you are getting any kind of increased vibration from a fan - you need to stop using dirt-cheap fans!"
My thought exactly. Reply
Iketh - Monday, October 01, 2012 - link"Side vents aren't necessarily more noisy"
Oh ok, I'm just making things up. Sorry...
"if you are getting any kind of increased vibration from a fan - you need to stop using dirt-cheap fans! Seriously!"
You consider Zalman fans cheap?
"Personally, I want a side fan. I realize my opinion is influenced from the days when graphics solutions started overpowering case cooling designs to the point where pulling off the side cover and setting up a fan to blow across the video card was a necessity, but I've found that a side fan can still significantly drop the temperature of a card."
Well of course! If a side fan is needed, the case was either designed poorly or you bought the wrong case for your needs. This is my whole point. Of course there are some designs that require side vents (ones that obstruct the entire front panel), but in my opinion, 80% of builders don't require these designs, yet it seems 80% of cases have side intakes... Antec three-hundred is a good example of a case that doesn't need a side intake unless you populate the lower half of the 3.5" bays.
"You can say proper design makes for a better solution, and certainly that has a lot of truth, but in the end moving air is going to be important enough to some builds that the side fan will be of great benefit. If you don't need or want that, buy a different case."
Again, you're exactly right.... Your post is scary because you're trying to argue yet you're agreeing, like you're not understanding my point at all. (and you're calling me a liar in others...)
JPForums said it better than I ever can. Refer to his post above. Reply
redmist77 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkLooks suspiciously like an Antec P18X Reply
fausto412 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkLian Li had a case that sold for 400+ dollars a few years back. The P180 was a cheap version of it. Lian Li was the leader in their component seperation scheme. Why Lian Li still makes good cases you can get the same or better just not 100% aluminum for way better price. Reply
Samus - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI prefer the aluminum/steel hybrid Silverstone implemented in the FT01. The outer ring is a seamless C-member made of steel, which makes the rest of the (aluminum) chassis very rigid. This way they don't need additional aluminum support brackets and crap to keep things sturdy. The added benifit of the outer ring and edges being steel is that it wont ding and dent (like even this Lian-Li PC-A76X sample did) when it is transported to you or when you transport it anywhere. I've moved mine across the country to San Diego and back in a car, and it still looks brand new four years later.
Obviously using steel as the exterior support adds weight, in this case, it is 8lbs more than the PC-A76X, but after water cooling, 5 HDD's and a GTX570, who's counting weight? Reply
Brendonmc - Monday, October 01, 2012 - link
Agreed. Silverstone make some of the nicest looking cases on the market. I've thrown a whole heap of goodness into their SUGO SG04F, which is a full-width mini tower. It can accommodate a full size power supply and 2 full size double slot graphics cards. The concession is a micro ATX form-factor, but there are some good mobos available. Reply
Granseth - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkIt also looks very much like Fractal Designs R3 (and 4) cabinets. But I like the design very much, so I won't complain about a better selection. Reply
StevoLincolnite - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkAnd yet... I think it looks ugly. Something like a brushed metal bar fridge. Reply
NicodemusMM - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI have a Lian Li Tyr PC-X2000 which is about the same width, though I believe significantly taller. It easily accommodates a Noctura NH-D14, which is a massive. I will tell you from my experience with the Tyr that taking the front door off helps airflow and temps. The cutouts in the front are insufficient to permit the volume of air that the 3 fans are capable of and this case has even smaller cutouts. I'm currently running an i7-2600K @ 4.9GHz with HT on with the D14, but only with the front off. It restricts airflow that much.
I can't comment on this case specifically, but my experience with Lian Li has been superb. The construction is top notch. My only complaints so far would be with the Tyr's choked airflow from the front and it's insufficient room for cables between the motherboard tray and the side panel.
Regarding noise; I've found their cases to be quiet, but like all cases if you have a loud GPU it can get irritating.... even with noise dampening materials. Said materials are readily available, so if you're planning a HTPC near your seating area you may wish to consider it. Reply
Impulses - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - link" A76X's cooling design looked to be a big winner, at least on paper. The more cases I review, the more I'm convinced the bottom-front intake to top-back exhaust standard is just not the best way to do things. "
I've been saying this for a while now... Forcing air thru that S or L shape just isn't very efficient (before even taking internal components into account, and their fans). I just don't understand why we haven't seen much experimentation beyond a few fringe cases like the Silverstone FT02. The whole thing makes even less sense when you look at more compact mid towers...
How many people out there are really using more than one or two external bays along with more than 1-3 drives, the vast majority of users aren't... Yet the vast majority of cases dedicate a third of the space to this huge tower of drive bays.
I wanna see a case with a single external bay that's either oriented vertically (for media readers or slot loading opticals) or moved up and OVER all the other components, with two front fans pointing directly at the CPU area and directly at the GPU area, slap a couple of sleds for HDD/SSD on the bottom (maybe two stacks that are two drives tall each, so they occupy the space in front of the PSU), and done.
Instant cross flow across every major component, direct path of air allows for better cooling with lower speed fans and eliminates the need for a lot of side/top fans. Why does no one make a case like this that focuses on cooling without wasting space to also house a sever inside it? Reply
Impulses - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkThat kinda case might be a smidge taller than average, but it'll be at least a third shallower (less wasted material) and it'd cool better than most (with just 3 fans, could even skimp and ship it with two), it can't possibly be that big a risk... Someone make it happen please! Reply
Grok42 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkWhy even have a single external bay, just get rid of them entirely. Surely there are enough people that don't have a need for any external drives that there could be a few of these types of cases on the market? I will say I'm impressed that Lian-Li *only* put two external bays in a case this large. Despite my opinion that none were needed, this is a huge step forward from silly cases with 5-9 external bays.
I get your point that a huge portion of the builds don't need more than a few drives, but I think that unlike the external bay issue, the internal bays could be engineered in such a way that they are flexible and have no trade offs. It seems that a rail system could be conceived that did the job of supporting the structural needs of the case while not blocking air flow at all. Of course, as you add drives, they would block the flow of air but that is a choice you could make. My other big beef with almost all internal bay systems is that spacing the drives is always a trade-off between cabling requirements and heat. With SSDs becoming more popular the 3.5" Vs 2.5" bays is also getting to be a problem. It seems the internal drive rails could be made in such a way that you could decide on the spacing and not need to be locked into set distances based on how many and what type of drives you have. Reply
Wardrop - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI agree that the need for optical drives is on the decline. Very rarely do I, or anyone else in my house for that matter, need to read or write to an optical disc.
Where I disagree is with cases with heaps of 5.25" bays. There's a market for them; especially for cases with ONLY 5.25" drive bays. I bought a Lian Li PC-A17B about 2 years ago - I had to shop around to find one as they had been discontinued (I bought one of the last available in Australia). The idea was to buy a bunch of Lian Li 3x 5.25" to 4x 3.5" hot-swap cages, which is exactly what I did. I've now got 3 optical drives and 8 hot-swap drives in the size of a standard ATX case. I could if I needed to, scrap the optical drives and go with another hard-drive cage for 12 hot-swap hard-drives in a standard ATX case. Not only does this function really well, it also looks great as the Lian Li drive bays look like they came with the case as they have the same finish and styling. Each drive cage also has a 120mm fan, so thermal performance isn't completely ruined either.
I just wish Lian Li didn't discontinue this line of cases, as by having this case, they could essentially save themselves from having to make about 5 additional cases to account for all the combinations that could be achieved with the PC-A17.
Modular case design. Just my two cents. Reply
Grok42 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkCertainly a valid use case and I'm glad they still make cases like this for your needs. However, there seem to be way too many of them given how niche this market would seem to be. There are also a lot of cases with internal hot swap bays which would be almost as good with the exception that you would have to have easy access to one side of the case in order to actually hot swap a drive. Given how uncommon it is to hot swap this typically wouldn't be a problem.
Another way to build this would be to use an external drive enclosure. I get why this would be less than ideal for a lot of people but it has the advantage of being simple and robust.
Maybe the answer is stackable case sections each with their own cooling fan. Reply
rarson - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkYou can also use the bays for other things, like storage drawers, fan controls, audio breakouts, etc. Reply
JonnyDough - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkYou know, I live in a tiny 1 bedroom apt and I've come to realize that my monster sized Thermaltake Kandalf is probably the best PC purchase I've made. The reason I state this is because smaller is not necessarily better. My PC case keeps my computer relatively quiet, and it was built to house water cooling as well. It was easier to build in than some of my smaller cases. Granted, a removable motherboard try and specifically designed parts (such as a slimmer CPU cooler) make building in smaller cases much easier. It's a beast, for sure - but I don't mind. It garners attention. It's kind of like having a big truck. It's a man's machine. Reply
futurepastnow - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI know that's your standard testbed and you want to use it for the sake of comparison charts, but I can't help but think you should have thrown a dual-socket EATX system in there for a real heat and noise test. How loud is this case when it is used the way it is meant to be used? Reply
Sabresiberian - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkI agree. Some of these cases should be tested more strenuously to see if they really do keep up with cooling demands. That being said, I give Dustin credit for bringing some significant heat challenge in his methodology, much better than a lot of case reviews I've seen.
;) Reply
email@example.com - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkYou do not mention the type of aluminum employed in this case - is it pure aluminum or aluminum alloy? Aluminum tensile, bending and compression strength is comparable with steel with the right choice of material, so a flimsy case simply amounts to bad design and choice of aluminum alloy.
Lots of steel cases are flimsy - just bad design. So too this aluminum case is simply one with bad choice in material thickness and/or material alloy.
Aluminum may also be hardened to make the surface durable. Again bad choices and design for the material. Reply
theSeb - Monday, October 01, 2012 - link" is it pure aluminum or aluminum alloy? Aluminum tensile, bending and compression strength is comparable with steel with the right choice of material, so a flimsy case simply amounts to bad design and choice of aluminum alloy."
I can tell you without looking at the case that it will be an aluminium alloy. Basically all "aluminium" consumer goods are made out of some aluminium alloy and not "pure aluminium" so your question does not make sense, even though the second bit about the choice of aluminium alloy is correct.
Pure aluminium is soft and very malleable.
"The yield strength of pure aluminium is 7–11 MPa, while aluminium alloys have yield strengths ranging from 200 MPa to 600 MPa" Reply
Magichands8 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkLately every time I look at most of Lian Li's offerings I'm seeing lots of weird design decisions. I just don't understand the standard layout of most cases in which you have a thick drive tower positioned right behind the front intake fans. The components that need air flow the least get the best cooling. At the same time air flowing over the drives at the front is heated before it reaches the components that need to be cooled the most. I guess it's a throwback to a time when standard hard drives produced far more heat and storage capacity was much, much lower requiring many drives to satisfy the needs of power users. But those times are long gone. Lian Li really seemed to hit the mark with their PC-X2000 series. I am very impressed the by their straight-through air flow but the rest of their line-up seems to be deviating from that paradigm for reasons that scape me. Although it's really interesting to hear from an above poster who said that the front cover restricts air-flow. It wouldn't surprise me if that also contributed raising the noise floor of the system as well.
Take the drive cage away from the front of the case. You should be able to easily fit at least 5 drives, very compactly, either above or below the motherboard. Especially if some of them are going to be SSDs (and they should be anyway). In fact I remember reading once that cooling drives TOO efficiently can actually cause them to fail SOONER. Plus, anyone who needs to fill on the order of 10+ drive bays is someone who is looking to use, what, 20+ TERABYTES of storage space? Anyone needing that much storage space is going to be much better served by a storage scheme that's flexible and expandable i.e. an external NAS or SAN setup. No matter how you cut it it just doesn't make any sense to allocate huge amounts of case space to large numbers of drives.
I hear a lot in comments about Fractal Design and I like their cases but they can't get it right either. Every one of their cases seems to be designed for negative pressure cooling. That's the deal breaker for me on their cases. Even Lian Li is doing this with some of their NEWER designs. Negative pressure cooling is great and all if you want your case to double as vacuum cleaner but to me that's never made any sense.
What I take away from all of the various case reviews I see is that all these case manufacturers either have no idea what their customers are using their cases to do or are simply not paying attention what qualifies as a good case. Reply
wwwcd - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkThis BIG case assembled with micro motherboard...PC case who was making for E-ATX...This is fun! Reply
ZoSo - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI love Lian Li cases. Never had any issues with them and the build quality is great. Any system I built with them ran exceptionally cool with proper wire management. I've tried a lot of other all aluminum cases and once I bought my first Lian Li, it was then I realized I wasted my money on those other cases, and the extra money for Lian Li is well worth it. I also recommend them if someone wants a system built by me. I plan on getting the PC-A76X or the PC-A75X, still undecided, and fill it with HDDs using the optional backplanes. If the PC-A76X is built like the PC-X2000, which I'm currently using for my main system for the past 2 years, then it is a very good case.
And by the way, Lian Li anodizes there cases, they don't paint. Reply
etamin - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI've owned the original PC-A71F (before the USB 3.0 version) for over 2 years and thought that the A76X was the perfect successor to it when I first glossed the photos. I like that the interior has been blacked out and that there are only two 5.25" bays (perfect for 1 optical, 1 card reader). But then I realized all the misses...
Despite the A76X being taller than the A71F, the two seem to share the same front panel door design which can be quite problematic. After about a year of use, my door hinge began rattling intermittently (good call on the long term durability of cheaper materials, Dustin). Also, the fan filters are especially hard to remove and clean as the entire front fascia is held on by 7 screws. Dustin, you mentioned in the review that the A76X has no fan filters in the front, but can you try removing the front fascia to see if there are any underneath?...it may be the same design as the A71F.
Another downgrade on the A76X for me is the case feet. The shiny discs that many of the larger older Lian Li's sat on seem to have been replaced by small, black rubber feet. And as this case seems to be the first Lian Li to offer rubber cable openings, I'm not really sold on their functionality vs. what Corsair and Fractal have come up with. Lastly, the extra height of the case makes cabling especially ugly from the PSU to the external bays, even more so than the Tyr PC-X2000 as the A76X is longer.
I wish Lian Li can just shrink the A71F a tad shorter, black out the interior, and leave 2 exertnal bays...that would make my day. The B-10 comes close, but a bit too small for me. Reply
etamin - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkand also I'd like to see an easy pop-off front fasica right behind the case door. Reply
sulu1977 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkDo any of these pricey, hi-end cases keep bugs out? I'm pretty sure that a spider, ant or some other small critter can short out an exposed circuits... and there seems to be hundreds of exposed circuits inside a pc. Reply
HardwareDufus - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI like AnandTech. I appreciate your reviews. This review told me little about the performance of the case for it's intended purpose.
It's big.... So I would have expacted to see a Dual CPU E-ATX case.
It has 12 drive bays. I would have at least expected to see a Raid5 setup....
Equipping this case in a manner similar to the way the targe audience intends to use it, permits you to run meaningful tests.
How is it's noise and thermal perrformance wthen equipped this way? We don't know.. you chose to use a MATX board and few drives.
This review should be run again... Reply
Hood6558 - Sunday, September 30, 2012 - linkI never liked any of their overpriced cases, they always looked like the design is from 20 years ago, and user input is obviously ignored since they remain overpriced outdated curiosities. Their only so-called benefit is all aluminum construction, which as others pointed out, makes for a flimsy case when the aluminum gets thinner, and offers no real help in cooling, only in dent-collecting. Besides that, they all look the same - get over the whole "mysteriously smooth monolith" bit already and quit sacrificing function for form, and ugly form at that. (I like the "dormitory fridge" reference). Don't get me wrong, I like classy understated designs over gaudy, flashy gaming rigs, but Lian Li's have all the warm appeal of a brick. Hard to believe they flow any real air given the closed up design, and there's no options for upgrading the airflow - hardly an "enthusiast" case, more like a "Grandpa's email machine" type of case. Right now there are hundreds of good cases to choose from, so many that it's difficult to settle on just one, but it's easy to decide not to buy Lian Li, so that narrows it down a bit. Reply
londiste - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkhow is it that all the lian li cases that get reviewed here seem to be the slightly flawed ones?
i have owned lian li cases of various sizes (itx, small atx, large atx) and they were never that bad. i had a slightly smaller lian li case of similar design... that was completely toolless, did not have the issues depicted in the review, and had sound dampening mats in it by default.
when i changed it for a fractal define (out of curiosity rather than actual need), i suddenly realized what a difference there actually is. fractal define is not a bad case by any measure but when looking (and touching/feeling) it as compared to a good lian li side-by-side, they are simply not comparable. yes, the price difference is two-fold, but by now i do know what that difference buys you. Reply
leonsk - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkI have had about 5-6 LianLi cases (three of them are in my study right now, all operational) and almost as many Silverstones, both makes are my favorites. I just completed a build of the PC-A75X, which is pretty much the same as the current review. The 75 is perfect for my EVGA SR-2, easily if snugly accomodating that huge HPATX factor. Two Xeon E5645 with Corsair H60 liquid cooler units, 12 x 4GB Geil 1600 memory, Gigabyte HD6870, all powered by Seasonic X-series 80+gold PSU. The drive rack looks positively barren with only 2 x Samsung 830 128 SSDs and 2 x 1TB Seagate HDDs. Inside is spacious with good airflow from the three massive 140 mm fans in the front (yes, they do have easily removed filters; the front bezel snaps off). Cable management is no problem with the storage units having a big channel space along the side so not to obstruct the inflow from the front fans. The system is almost as silent as my HTPC but does get just a tad bit louder when stressing the system. Note that my Xeons are overclocked from the stock 2.4 GHz to 3.9; the Corsairs are easily and quietly handling that because each Xeon has TDP of 80W while each Corsair is rated to handle 135W+.
I think many of the comment I see here are from persons with little real familiarity with the actual cases. I find the design just about perfect, the aluminum alloy stiff and with excellent fit of all parts. LianLi encloses a box of silent mounting fasteners which make for easy install and quiet operations. The aluminum is of particular benefit here in my tropical island location because each and every steel case I have seen rusts within several months, but my cases look almost good as new. On an impulse that I greatly regret I bought a Cooler-Master Cosmos II case, intending to use that for the SR-2. Huge 55 lb. steel monster, with multiple doors and removable panels, but it turned out that I had a difficult time installing one of the Corsair H-60s; both of them were an easy fit into the LianLi. The biggie remains in a remote corner and will probably rust into oblivion unless I can unload it on somebody. Reply
knightsilver7 - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkIm getting a little sick of the case reviews, that arent reviews, more like pictures with a few words......
Pathetic cable management
Not using different or proper sized hardware, aka mATX motherboard in a HPTX case, if ur going to do smaller, at least do a comparison VS an HPTX motherboard.
And backup ur facts, if ya think this Lain Li case is flimsy, prove it, do ya know the difference between light and flimsy or sturdy?
anandtech.com use to have awesome detailed reviews and unbiased, ya can still get a great case for $200.
Any more reviews like these, Im giving up on Anandtech.................... Reply
SleepyItes - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkI have owned several mid-tower Lian-Li cases over the years (PC-60, PC-6070, and my favorite the PC-7B plus). These all had a a very solid build quality and incredible ease of access features (removable hard drive cages, removable motherboard trays, etc.). The aluminum was thick, and there were panels and rails inside the case that provided excellent reinforcements. These things were rock solid.
I just purchased the PC-Q18A for a Mini-ITX HTPC/Server. I have noticed the thinness of the aluminum and lack of reinforcement makes the case seem flimsy. Luckily this is a small case and doesn't need a lot of stability, but I can see how this would make a huge difference in a mid or full tower case. Maybe it's just the "Q" and "A" series cases, but it seems that Lian-Li is damaging its reputation by going with thin aluminum and not focusing on the physical stability of their cases. I have always recommended Lian-Li in the past (also Antec for budget steel), but if this is the way they are heading, I will probably look elsewhere for my future case purchases. Reply
BlueReason - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkI really enjoy your attention to detail in reviews, Dustin, though noise and thermal testing with a build configured without consideration for the case or utilization of its unfilled cooling options doesn't really reflect how someone would actually build their rig. A case is part of a kit that requires completion on part of the builder in a way that effectively suits the particular build. Often that requires the addition or relocation of fans, and the supplied options are a part of that case's potential. Merely putting a preconfigured build in a case unaltered out of the box and letting it ride really doesn't demonstrate much, because no thoughtful builder would do that.
I would enjoy seeing case reviews being done where the build was completed, within reason (no modding, or anything rather elaborate), in a fair approximation of how you would build it if it were going to be your daily use rig. That could mean relocating fans, or even adding them. I realize you want to stick as close as possible to what the case provides, but by definition it is an unfinished part of a whole that requires additional parts that can differ per the build. This case is an extreme example due to the size/components disparity, but I'm also referring to case reviews in general.
Despite that, very nice review, as usual. =) Reply
SleepyItes - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkI agree. Part of the enjoyment of getting a nice case is tweaking it with new fans and/or fan controllers, heat sinks, noise dampening materials, etc. to meet your specific goals, whether that is overclocking, noise level, power usage, or just a good overall balance of these things.
Because those goals are subjective, it would be hard to review from this perspective, but it would be nice to at least see an acknowledgement that, with a small amount of tweaking, much better cooling and noise reduction can be attained, and what would those minor tweaks be for this case? Reply
superflex - Monday, October 01, 2012 - linkI still own my Li Li PCV1000 and love the case. While Lian Li does have crap English instructions, I find their quality to be 1st class. My 1000 has a giant scratch in the top where my 30 pound Hafler amplifier fell on it, but not a dent to be seen. Try that with your BitFenix case. Reply
pandemonium - Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - linkI've been considering replacing my case for a while now, since I've started overclocking and my PC6070 can't accomodate the required air flow without needing very loud fans; this has me thinking. The notes of the build quality being lack-luster is key here. Thanks! Reply
FrozenAsset - Tuesday, October 02, 2012 - linkI've built several computers using Lian Li cases. I'm disappointed to hear that the quality may have dropped. I can say that any build I've had with the cases pre-2010 have been top notch, stylish and convenient.
As far as thermal conductivity, steel sucks. Unless you want to pay for a case made of Silver, Copper or Gold..., aluminum is your best bet. I seem to remember something about copper transferring heat better than aluminum, but aluminum dissipating it quicker than copper, which I think is why some heat sinks have a copper core. Reply
deeppow - Wednesday, October 03, 2012 - linkI have several LL cases and have just bought another.
The only problem I've found is LL has a total absences of support and never replies to their "support" email. Last case I ordered from Newegg had a broken fan blade. Newegg couldn't provide a new fan, they could only replace the whole case (they would cover all shipping costs both-ways). To save my time I just replaced the fan myself.
You get a new LL case, check it out completely for damage before starting a build. To be buying another LL case, I must think they are a quality case. Reply
jginnane - Sunday, March 31, 2013 - linkI'm in a room surrounded by Lian Li cases -- half active, half in the process of new builds or refurbishment. One of the nicest things about LLs is that they're essentially immortal -- visit the Taiwanese website to get a new USB 3.0 set of headers for your external case ports. Presto -- good for another 10 years! My oldest Lian Li is awaiting its 4th m/b and CPU. I've built one B10 and 2 B12s this year, and was lucky to find a red PC8-FIR unopened (which I'm saving for my granddaughter's first system).
I'm not having issues with heat like many posters here, probably because aside from using Seasonic and Corsair 850 watt Gold PSUs, I'm careful in component selection. Who needs more than 2 SSDs and 2 internal 2.5" 3-4TB HDs these days? The killer, the multiple-GPU system, is most times just a sad case of OCD. Instead of multiple monitors on each system -- been there, tried that -- I'm replacing the 27"Samsung 1920x1200 monitors with 27" and 30" 2560x1600 single monitors.
I can appreciate that some modest overclocking is fun, perhaps slightly profitable ... but who's paying the electric bill in your household? (I've dropped my electric bill 50% by using CREE LED downlights throughout the most heavily trafficked rooms.) Note that almost any serious overclocking can start adding 20-40% (and up) monthly to your system energy costs. (Use a Kill-a-Watt to test.) When you have a half dozen systems in 24/7 use, that's a serious no-no. Reply
naisanza - Friday, June 07, 2013 - linkMy Antec 1200 currently has three hard drives in it right now and an SSD. 5TB total storage. My 240 radiator currently takes up the rest of the bays. Reply
naisanza - Friday, June 07, 2013 - linkI was hoping the build quality would be denser. I was really set on getting this, because it's the best looking case with a full front panel, but the flimsy build and the irremovable hard drive cages is a pretty big deal breaker. Reply
naisanza - Saturday, June 08, 2013 - linkAlso, there doesn't seem like there is enough space to fit a 240 radiator with fans above the motherboard. There seems like there are so many things wrong with this case, but it's still the best looking case that fit's my requirements. Reply


text:
Def Leppard's 'Day Of Hysteria' on AXS later this month
Listen to Def Leppard on iHeartRadio
Def Leppard's "Day Of Hysteria" is coming to AXS TV. The network will present the broadcast premiere of "Def Leppard: Viva! Hysteria" as part of a 12-hour concert programming marathon.
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Schedule for AXS TV's "Day Of Hysteria" - All times Eastern
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3:40 p.m. - "Alice Cooper Live At Montreux"
5:25 p.m. - "Sammy Hagar And Friends Annual Cabo Wabo Birthday Bash"
7:00 p.m. - "Bon Jovi, Lost Highway - The Concert" rebroadcast
8:00 p.m. - "Def Leppard: Viva! Hysteria"
9:35 p.m. - Cheap Trick At Budokan: The 35th Anniversary Performance - Live From The El Rey Theater"
11:15 p.m. - "KISS Monster World Tour: Live From Europe Concert"
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Welcome to Dragon Cave! Dragon Cave is an online adoptables game. Collect eggs, raise them to adulthood, and then breed them to create interesting lineages. New types of dragons are added regularly!
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There are 5 real estate agents servicing Whittington and surrounds. In 2014 they sold 59 properties. We have analysed all these Whittington agents and on request within 24 hours we will send you a free, up-to-date report on their performance, sales track record and what fees you should pay. View report contents
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Results 41 to 60 of 116
well im here and waiting in the call to arms channel.- Tom De Roeck.
verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.
"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it." - The Conclave
Didn't realize it was at 4. Been out all day.
edit: Apparently the meeting hasn't started and we're just chillin in platoon 1. Someone said Nick was one earlier in a special meeting channel..? Can't see you now. Anyway, we're all in PL1.
Last edited by RIDEBIRD; 16-03-2013 at 04:53 PM.
Ok, so it seems that the meeting isnt happening today, because there are only a handful of people that actually showed up.
I turned up at quarter to 5 thinking I was late to find it had not started. It seems nick had a chat with Quanta and had decided that because so few people were here, it would be better to reorganise for another time.
This may in part be due to some rugby thing thats happening in the UK, but that was just one of the suggested problems. Another issue is the strange time (4pm) and the day being saturday.
So it seems we need a new day and time...
I would suggest a tuesday, since its the only day where we dont have a set in stone event (like silly mon, purple wed, strat thur). I know we have squad play, but it seems the best day to take over as meeting day, given that people seem to want to go out or something on fridays and saturdays? (socialites)
This next tuesday may be too soon for people, but if a lot of people show up, an impromptu meeting may be a good thing.
Otherwise, how about tuesday 26th at like 5 or 6 pm? Feel free to suggest different times, but bare in mind that people will want to play on other days and if new players join we may need to accomodate them too.
As most of you will know Cooper is away for two weeks in India, so we need to figure this one out alone!
It was very few people on now as well, so, yeah. I propose sundays as the ultimate meeting day. Nothing is booked unless "training". Tuesday is supposed to be squad play, but that works as well I guess (it is not a set in stone event, rather we are supposed to play in squads).
i would say tomorrow. it shouldnt take too long so we wont keep people from xp weekend.
and yes, Im a bit annoyed, because at the moment I dont even have a PC at home, so I have to use a mumble for android thing. its the most I can participate at the moment.- Tom De Roeck.
verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.
"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it." - The Conclave
For some reason I had convinced myself that it was on at 5pm GMT. I checked the forums and realised I was late. This is not an excuse, this is an evidence of how stupid I am :P
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Posts
- 4,594
Thought I had missed it due to going out drinking, is it being rescheduled now? If so, for when?
I couldnt tell you. The most I can do is suggest times, but we need people to see, and then be active.
Next meeting scheduled for 8pm UTC / 9pm BST
Agenda up & clearer
Just hop in during purple wednesday."KING GEORGE IS A FROG
le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~
Minutes from meeting 03/04/2013
Next Meeting: Saturday 13th April at 8pm (UTC+1)
1) Logo
- Members directed to thread where the discussion / work is ongoing:
Action: Everyone go to that thread, read, comment, and help with design & decision.
2) PUG platoons
- Seem to have dropped off in number. Will return to this issue to review at a later date.
3) The website
- In progress. Go, have a look. Suggest changes.
4) Training sessions
- To be organised more often. If you would like to run some, please do step forward.
- To assist in people arranging these, a calendar needs to be setup.
Action: Cooper to setup a shared calendar anyone can add an event to. Will be posted (stickied if poss) in the forums.
Action: Everyone should mention training sessions during busy nights. Take a lull in action to remind people of when they are due to take place (not everyone checks the forums...)
5) Outfit "manifesto" and guidelines (behaviour & use of comms)
- To be part of a collaborative "outfit guide".
Action: Cooper to setup a shared Google (?) document that we can work on and collate "guidelines" that have been written by many people thus far. Suggested format: 4-5 pages. 2-3 pages for "new to outfit" players covering our "style": Who we are, why wer are here. Regular events, what to expect, basic comms guidelines and Wibbster / Esoteric's player guidelines. Then 2-3 pages for organisers / leaders detailing roles, basic pointers for different roles, how comms work for leaders etc.
Action: Everyone To help out with the document. Let's get this done sooner rather than later.
6) Channel size / splitting comms / special ops
- Rather than "splitting comms" we should be making better use of smaller, coordinated forces on every night.
- Often many people want less people in the channel but do not say it. It is far
- A seperate (a squad or two) group of players doing something tighter, more organised, but still relaxed and chatty but with a smaller number of people in the channel should be in existence every night that we are not using squad based channels.
- The "specia giraffes" channel was setup up with this in mind. It was agree this works well to provide an environment with feweer people in a channel for those who want it.
- The problem is that creating a group for those who want less busy comms always comes down to the same few people who suggest it. (Followed by many saying that yes, they would like that...)
Action: Everyone PLEASE step forward and suggest that we start a "special giraffes" squad. This does not need to be "serious business" but is rather a place to form smaller groups for those that don;t like large, busy channels.
7) The Vanu Accord
- Cooper reiterated that the TVA exists primarily to foster communication and coordination, but does not exist so that one outfit can expect another outfit to do as asked.
- Problems as to what to do if we cannot join in with TVA actions or if another oufit just ignores / doesn't coordinate properly is to let it go. No outfit, RPS or otherwise, should be expected to be at the beck and call of anyone else.
- That being said, better coordination is appreciated. Our "liason" role is very well loved.
- Lision officers should push to make contact with outfits as much as possible and share good contacts.
Actions: Liason officers Should all join the forums at www.thevanuaccord.com where a discussion about the role will be started to share tips, contacts, discuss the role etc.
8) Terminology & Role clarification
- There is some confusing replication / swapping of terms. The following is for clarification.
Satellite bases: Used to refer to the capture points outside main bases (Amp, Tech, Bio). Specific bases should be referred to by their cardinal direction. Do not use outpost, tower, specific names etc.
Beacon / Waypoint: Do not get these mixed up. If you are unsure what is what, ask.
Platoon Lead: Obvious
Squad Lead: Is now a 'tactical' role. They closely organise & order squads on a small scale.
Radio giraffe: Liase between a squad and the PL. They pass sitreps to the PL. They will pass down orders from the PL, though the SL gives orders as to how to achieve the goal.
Sumamry: Radio the "what" SL the "how".
These roles will be clarified in the guidelines document to be written.
Liason: Liase between RPS PL(s) and other outfits.
Action: Everyone follow the above terminology from now on.
9) The role of the PL, passing on command and getting new commanders
- Being a "grunt" can often lead to a disconnect from the wider strategic level.
Action: Platoon Leaders Should use a shout to all platoon members more often to pass on summaries of the 'bigger picture'.
- When the PL leaves for the night it is often exceptionally difficult to find a replacement.
- People being given the PL role when they have specifically said no is not appreciated at all and should never be done.
- CMaster's idea of "Mentoring" for the PL role was met widely with approval.
- Many would like to come forward, but were uncertain.
- It was thought the PLs should voluntarily limit themselves to 3 hours.
- Training sessions as well as mentoring will be welcome.
Acyion: Platoon leaders Try to instigate a "shift change" in the middle of the night rather than the end of the night when everyone's dropping for the night.
Action: Platoon leaders State that you will be stepping down well in advance of you leaving. And organise a replacement beforehand. On "squad play" nights it's good to have replacements for SLs, PLs and radios ready in advance.
Action: Regular platoon leaders Offer to "mentor" potential new leaders. If you are leading (again...), think about instead using the time to teach new leaders.
Action: EveryonePlease, please step forward if you like the idea of trying leading. Please also ask for help / guidance if you would like it.
Action: EveryoneDo not undermine leaders (especially new ones). There were comments to the effect that new leaders often find themselves being contradicted by other players, or having their orders discussed rather than followed. We have talked about this before. Give leaders respect. Discussing strategy is fine, but do so in a constructive (and brief) manner.
10) Promoting VS on Miller
- To be discussed next meeting
Action: Cooper to arrange for a front page post similar to the ARMA post a couple of months ago.
Next Meeting: Saturday 13th April at 8pm (UTC+1)"KING GEORGE IS A FROG
le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~
You can add Action: Ridebird regarding leading the campaign for more VS in TVA, as well as completing the guidelines.
And by the way - special giraffes is all well and good, but I would say a very large majority has shifted to prefering split comms. If people do not want to split the special giraffes should of course be utilized. I might try to lead a spec ops force again some time soon as well, but then I need to not be PL 24/7.
I think we have largely got over the bump of being afraid of proposing squad play though and that the ad hoc thing works, it's just that more people need to bring it up.
6) Channel size / splitting comms / special ops
- Rather than "splitting comms" we should be making better use of smaller, coordinated forces on every night.
- Often many people want less people in the channel but do not say it. It is far
- A seperate (a squad or two) group of players doing something tighter, more organised, but still relaxed and chatty but with a smaller number of people in the channel should be in existence every night that we are not using squad based channels.
Im not sure what is meant by "smaller" exactly, as no approx numbers specified, but if I had have been there tonight I would have opposed this somewhat.
I dont agree that EVERY night should be split down.. I posted a lengthy piece of text on the enjoyable side of having what some people would consider "clusterfuck" comms.. The main problem I have been seeing is that some people are just unwilling to give up a night to playing in a generally organised/messy way..
The way I would deal with the issue of not enjoying a certain style is not to play on a certain night, but there are people who would change the format rather than allowing for one night to be not of their own tastes. I think on the whole if people relaxed their attitude towards this more relaxed "we dont have to give a shit about being organised or winning but just have fun" viewpoint, then there would be a lot less of a problem.
I know some people dont like that, but I for one dont like always playing to win.. sometimes I just enjoy something in between strategic win gaming and silly monday style... something that means I can do what I want, chat and play with decent guys, but still not care too much.
I dont think there was ever an issue of people "being afraid" to split the comms... the issue was that there are often people that just dont want it split.. I mean, part of the charm of the group was everybody chatting to one another, but this seems to split apart that dynamic massively, and detracts from the appeal.
I enjoy it some of the time, but it just starts to wear on me when every night is taken to some degree of seriousness. Im not saying we should purposefully suck, or lose, but we should really come around to the fact that its possible to not win and still enjoy yourself.. There have been days where strategic nights fail miserably but less oranised nights are very fun.
I dont honestly think a channel should ever drop below 30 people in comms for certain nights, specifically the weds kind of night. I also dont really think we should be playing lots of tactical days in a row.
One thing is for certain, I personally dont ever want to see silly monday nights where we split comms, because that just ruins the hilarity for me.
I know certain people will oppose this view and such, but its the way I see it. Ad hoc does work for when people really do come to some kind of argumentative situation mid game, and I like the way it was working
TLDR: we shouldnt be splitting into smaller groups every night, especially not mondays. We already have two-three days where we play it fairly squad based and I think this is more than enough, taking into account relaxed/silly nights and nights where we have no organised events like fri/sat.
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There's been a lot of work put in by many people recently to take this discussion forward, from this point particularly, towards a system that has the flexibility to accommodate both ends of the spectrum of play, and provide the range of comms environments (no matter how we're playing) needed to keep more people happy than was previously the case.
Rather than taking us back to where we were 2 weeks ago, please take the time to read the lengthy discussion in various threads about this - or read it again more carefully if you've just skimmed over it - to get a more up to date picture of the debate. Most everything you've brought up in your last few posts about comms has been hashed out from both sides of the argument many, many times, going back several months; we need to focus on the thread of progression that's emerged in the past 10 days or so and build on that rather than constantly repeating the same things in different terms.
That was well put, protorp, though I sense some frustration.
Oh, and one more thing, Pauly: split comms does not necessarily mean 1 squad per channel, it could mean 2 squads per channel, which is plenty chatty.
Last edited by EsotericReverie; 04-04-2013 at 09:59 AM. Reason: Clarity
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Yes on all fronts Esoteric! Frustration, or perhaps more a certain weariness, with the same confused premise bouncing back again and again to get in the way of meaningful debate.
That wasn't meant to detract from the fact that there has been great progress on the comms front recently; I've felt it tangibly when playing, whatever the style of night. I think a decent platform has been thrashed out, and that setting it down in guidelines and letting these bed in and evolve through practice is emphatically the right way to continue.
A final point; I don't think anyone wants to touch Silly Mondays, because they are meant to be Silly. It can make sense to split up if we're doing some kind of team-based competition or something, but otherwise just bunching everyone together makes sure that everyone gets the same kind of experience at any rate. Silly Mondays is not for everyone anyway, there are always some people who prefer to just play the game when people pull away to do Silly Mondays.
Pauly, I'm sure your concerns are valid from your standpoint, but there has been overwhelmingly positive feedback with the last round of changes we did (based on a week and a half worth of forum discussions). Could you give it a try for a couple of days, and if your issues seem to persist, we can take it from there, yeah? It's also worth keeping in mind, as Protorp points out, that these systems are still fairly new to us, and that they should settle with time.
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Splitting comms is actually pretty similar to what people do in real life. If a large group of people is talking, it breaks up into smaller groups which talk about different things. It's just not feasible to have twenty+ people being part of a discussion without some kind of chair giving the word to people, like in a bigger meeting.
(as a side not though, I have to say that we have a pretty fascinating linguistic environment in mumble. People with different first languages who adjust to the norms of a multicultural environment and making it work, kind of. Without almost all of the nonverbal signals you'd find in IRL conversation... It's quite interesting. )
04-04-2013, 11:32 AM #58I just want to emphasize the very important point that split comms != serious play. What split comms means is that more people get a chance to speak up, and that leaders are more easily heard. It is very hard for those who do not feel very confident to speak up in a group of 25+ people, especially if English is a second language for them, as is the case for more than half of our members. Whenever we're 40 people in a channel, there are only about 10-12 people talking all the time, often the same 10-12 people too, which is a shame.
There might be a middle ground on your comms issue. I'm sure you could work out something using this so that people could split off into squads whilst allowing those who want a mélange to join the shout channel on a different button.Itsbastiat, Dawngate
Bastiat, Planetside 2, Miller NC
ClementAtlee, Planetside 2, Miller VS
Therin Khatta, FFXIV, Cerberus
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But in all seriousness, thursdays (i.e. today) is the day we play strategic, with comms split on squad-basis. It's much easier to talk than on most other nights, so I you feel like joining us tonight is the night for you. You don't HAVE to speak it. Just being on mumble is good enough. You can always contact me or anyone else who you recognize from the forum for an outfit invite ingame. Just send a tell or chat us up if you see us around.


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