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Motorola Atrix HD Preview: $99 Monster?by Jason Inofuentes on 7/14/2012 8:19 AM EST
- Posted in
- Qualcomm
- Smartphones
- Motorola
- Mobile
- Atrix HD
58 Comments
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TareX - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkBeing an early Atrix adopter, I'll never buy an Atrix again. It was clunky, buggy, had poor battery life, and froze inexplicably. And before you tell me that was a messed up unit, I'll have you know this was my second replacement.
I bought a Galaxy Nexus on launch, and will be holding on to it till Key Lime Pie hits on a new Nexus (I/O 2013?).... Other than the lack of MicroSD, the Nexus line really seems to be way ahead of the competition, thanks to the vastly improved software year in and out.
Motorola did a good job on the 2012 Atrix dock, but I don't need it, now that I'm planning to get the Nexus 7... which reminds me: When is Anandtech planning to review it? Reply
kaspyyy - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkIn Moto's defense, the bulk of that issue probably lies with Nvidia and the very poor documentation for the Tegra 2... the Tegra 2 had lots of problems with android including, but not limited to, inefficient usage of battery and horrible governing that led to choppiness in the operating system. Nvidia really shot themselves in the foot with that one. Reply
ammyt - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkI personally am waiting for the Quad Cortex-A15 chip from Samsung's Exynos, GOD it will be a beast! Reply
Thermogenic - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkHow is that a defense of Motorola? He picked a poor chipset to use for their phones - it is still their fault. Reply
ol1bit - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkFor the record, I blame Motorola, not Nvidia. The Asus Prime I have an tegra 3 kicks some serious butt.
I love it!
My buddy has the Droid X2 with the tegra 2 and had no problems either. Reply
dagamer34 - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkOne would assume that nVidia learned something going from Tegra 2 to Tegra 3, so that's not really a fair comparison. Reply
TheJian - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkSo you hate NV so much you can't even read his post?
"My buddy has the Droid X2 with the tegra 2 and had no problems either. "
His buddy's experience is not unlike a LOT of other people. Tegra 2 did fine for what it was supposed to do. Cheaply get into phones so they could get a foothold and start to create a phone ecosystem for gaming. Tegra 3 expands on that. I expect the wayne or logan chips to put a serious dent in consoles (ok, logan/stark? but heck, logan is 2013 so good enough). Microsoft and Sony agree. Well, that phones in general will hurt them (not just NV based), so they're axing better hardware and going the cheapo crap route. Witness the game devs already whining about lack of overall power in next years consoles. This will only further kill their platforms as phones pass them by and in the case of Tegra actually get good gaming on your TV via the phone and an Xbox or Playstation controller. I think some other controllers work also, pc based if memory serves.
They laid the groundwork already with support for these. Apple should wise up and support gamepads and spend money on devs like NV does or they will see android/NV do to them what they did to RIM. Rim had enterprise and neglected fun stuff. Apple added fun and exchange at the same time making rim un-special. They chose to ignore it and still do. Apple currently has retina and that's about it. Put a game side by side on Apple and Tegra3 and you see why you want a tegra (tegrazone games - if you're a gamer at all). Once retina is ubiquitous (middle of next year?) what do you need one for? It will then be about the fact that a parent only needs to buy a kid a Tegra3 based phone and they need no xbox360/ps3 (or whatever is next).
Nvidia already has a great relationship with devs, routinely paying money to them for optimizations (thereby cheapening the cost for a dev's game) on PC games and now phones too. If Apple doesn't start spreading a bit of wealth Nvidia will have a good 50-100 "better looking" games under their belts and iphone will be 2nd rate. Siri is beaten by android already. Activations are 2.x to 1 android vs. apple, and now gaming looks to be getting much better on android via NV. Rim grew for a bit as others took share, but that ends as the pendulum swings quickly for a company ignoring their users interests. Apple is growing but not nearly as fast as android. Look at their quarterly report and articles around the web regarding this. The writing is on the wall. Aim your phone at consoles or die slowly :) By the time the next consoles come out we'll have another die shrink on SOCS, more cores and a pretty good console like experience. At least on android/NV, possibly others if their optimizations work on other android based phone also...not sure about that - I hope they do! goodbye consoles then...LOL. I pray daily for consoles to die. :)
NV says Stark will be 100x Tegra2. I don't believe any company regarding future stuff, but if they're 1/2 right it should punish any new console not much faster than the last revs (and stuck in console stone for another 6-10 years). On top of that phones are subsidized over the plan costs. Parents might see that as a FREE console...ROFL. Console's days are already numbered. Video killed the radio star....Phone killed the console star...LMAO. It's about time ;) FYI 191mil revenue came from NV's consumer products business in Q3, and 109mil in Q4 (floods /Tegra 2 declining sales noted for last quarters overall lacking). Then again, maybe recent rumors of Xbox Next being semi potent will come true (still stuck in stone no matter what). Reply
Spunjji - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkI'm ashamed to say I read all of that comment. The only things more staggeringly vast than its length were the gaps in your logic. Reply
Belard - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkSome of us just want a nice phone to work as a... PHONE... Tegras are still SLOWER than the iPhone and iPads when it comes to gaming. Its shocking, a year later and they are still playing catchup.
Its good to see Android phone tech getting better and better, more battery life, better CPU performance.
So far, this Atrix HD is upper/middle of the road and half the price of the HOX or SGS3. Reply
Miggleness - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkI hear you. I just sent my Atrix back to the service center for the third time in 8 months. Reply
ammyt - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkYep. Apparently, Tegra II sucked big time in all of the devices which featured that SoC, Tegra III, as I think, isn't much better, well except for the fact that Nvidia enabled NEON instructions allowing to decode full HD media. However, the Qualcomm SoC in the Atrix HD is a dual ARM Cortex-A15 a.k.a. Krait chipset, this SoC is really powerful, and it matches the latest quad Cortex A9s such as the Tegra III and the likes, even supersedes them in some tests, and the Adreno 320 is really good.
This may be the first time I actually approve of a Qualcomm chip! Reply
Greg512 - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkKrait does not actually have A15 cores, though they are more sophisticated than A9 cores. As for the GPU, I expect the Atrix to employ the Adreno 220 GPU, not the 320. The 320 has yet to find its way into any consumer device and probably won't find its way until the end of this year. Still, being the owner of a Galaxy S3 with Krait, I have to say that the chip hasn't failed me yet and, though its GPU is inferior to those in the iPhone and the (international) Samsung S3, it seems to be more than sufficient. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkJust to clarify, Qualcomm's MSM8960 (found in pretty much all the new phones these days) features two Krait cores and the Adreno 225 GPU. Krait cores are NOT A15 cores, however they can be considered A15-class, they're a generational step ahead of the MSM8660's Scorpion cores in the same way Cortex-A15 will be over Cortex-A9. The Adreno 225 is based on a prior generation GPU, with the Adreno 3xx GPUs en route soon, but it's wick has been turned up for better performance over its predecessors (the 220, 205 and 200). Reply
rarson - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - link"Krait" is a core, not a chipset. The SoC's name is "Snapdragon S4." Reply
antef - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkAgreed...the Galaxy Nexus is simply fantastic. Just got the OTA update to Jelly Bean today, took a couple minutes and didn't have to reinstall or reconfigure anything, after the reboot I was back at my home screen just as before, only now with Jelly Bean. Completely painless and such a difference from dealing with ROMs, Titanium Backup, etc. like I used to do with my EVO. So much time wasted on that. The Nexus also has perfectly smooth performance and great battery life, and is a steal at $349.
Not only do you get a skinned out-of-date OS with a phone like the Atrix, but the bootloader will also be locked and encrypted, preventing you from ever self-upgrading with ROMs even if you wanted to. When you buy a phone like this you get complete ambiguity as to upgrade schedules with little to no options to do anything about it. That might be no big deal to a lot of people, but if you care about such things, get the Nexus. Reply
Roland00Address - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkFrom my understanding 4.1 won't accept flash officially and it will crash if you load the app from a device that was 4.0. Reply
TareX - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkFrom what I understood, you can install any other browser with flash support and run flash as you normally would on that browser. Reply
leexgx - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkit mite crash on 4.1 they are just no longer developing it any more Reply
antef - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkI haven't used Flash on Android for a long time. I think they were right to stop developing it. Reply
TareX - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkIt's the only way to stream live sports without paying... Reply
rarson - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkNo MicroSD... no thanks.
Just because Jelly Bean is released doesn't mean Ice Cream Sandwich is magically a turd overnight. I'm perfectly willing and able to wait for a port. I certainly agree with many of your points about the Nexus' upgrades and understand why many people would prefer it, but I'm not at all willing to spend $350 on a phone... ever. And while flashing roms can be a pain in the ass, I enjoy the experience of tinkering with my devices and improving their functionality beyond even what Google themselves give us. Reply
dagamer34 - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkThis would probably be a great phone, but the locked bootloader scares me away. Reply
antef - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkYes, ICS is a great OS, there wasn't even much that it needed improvement on, and I won't knock the custom ROM thing if it's something you enjoy. For me personally I just got tired of spending so much time on it and didn't see much need for any of CyanogenMod's extra features. I also got tired of the OEM's modifications, like Sense's tweaked multitasking and TouchWiz's ugly interface. So the Nexus gives me what I was looking for.
You say you're not willing to spend $350 on a phone, but how much do you spend on cell service each month? $90-100 or more? The cost of the phone pales in comparison. I'm using the Nexus with $45/month Straight Talk prepaid. Compared to Verizon, AT&T, etc., that extra $150 spent on the phone is made up in about 3 months. After that it's actually cheaper than getting an expensive contract with a $200 phone. Reply
MadMan007 - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkThere is a coverage difference between MVNO and carrier prepaid plans and contract plans. Reply
antef - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkThe only difference is no roaming. I'm using Straight Talk with AT&T which typically has more coverage than T-Mobile...I'll gladly give up T-Mobile roaming for $50/month savings. There is no justification for the criminal robbery that is Verizon and AT&T's contract prices. Reply
siberus - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkTo be fair locked bootloaders do suck but where there's a will there's a way. People have been able to get around the droids bootloaders for a while now the real question is will this device gain enough traction where the developer community will want to go through the effort to do it? Now im no programmer but i assume that since this device is using a different platform then previous moto phones the sideloading that people used for the droid 3/4/bionic/razer will need to be re-engineered to get passed the bootloader. Anyone know if any other recent qualcomm packing phones came with locked bootloaders that have been cracked/circumvented already? Reply
antef - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkThere are lots of phones out there with signed bootloaders that have never been fully cracked so that alternative kernels could be flashed. It's not the same thing nor as easy as getting it rooted. If you care about such things as the software on your phone, you simply shouldn't purchase from or support OEMs or carriers that lock it down like this. Reply
Zstream - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkI had no issues with my Atrix 4G. In fact it beats out my Nokia Lumia 900 and Iphone 4 in terms of battery life. It never "froze" on me or deemed slow. So, no I don't have any idea what you're talking about. Reply
KingKuba - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkNever had a problem with my Atrix, fast, smooth, great battery life and that was on 2.2
The only thing Galaxy Nexus has is updated software, nothing else. Everything else about it is not really worth talking about.
Software is overrated anyway, there's nothing really you can do on 4.0/4.1 that you can't do on 2.2/2.2, well except half the apps/games are still incompatible with ICS/JB. Reply
jjj - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkIf this is 99$ what the hell are they selling at 200$?Maybe they have a quad Krait ready soon. Reply
haukionkannel - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkIt is 99$ with two years contract... So in free market 400-500$... Reply
dagamer34 - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkOnly 8GB of internal storage plus the HTC One X isn't going to have a price adjustment so soon after launch (though there are plenty of places to find it cheaper than directly from AT&T). Reply
Impulses - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkIt's just $99 because there's no way Moto was gonna be able to best the SGS3 hype machine or the two month lead the One X has. You're looking at the specs, like any enthusiast would, but specs are not necessarily the biggest factor in moving phones off carrier's shelves. Simple word of mouth, hype, and store employees bias would bury this phone if it were $200...
Nevermind that it seems to have fewer software modifications than Samsung or HTC's equivalent, or that Googorola will probably have tons of help in porting new OS versions for quicker updates. It does have a smaller battery than the competition tho, they should release the MAXX version already instead of waiting several months. Reply
Impulses - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkThe $99 price point probably means we'll see it at $50 at some third party soon after launch if not as a pre-order tho, that's pretty incredible for a high end phone like this... And here I thought my $120 EVO LTE was a good deal. Reply
Belard - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkAs long as the phone sells well, it will be a $100 phone. Older Motorola phones have kept their $100 price point. This is mc first hires android model... Which severely devalues the older phones. Heck, I can get a new iPhone 4 for $100.
I'll try this atrix phone in the next few days... It looks like it will be the phone for me. Reply
jjj - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkMoto has nothing better than this one and selling their top phone at 100$ is just tragic. The One X has no SD slot, the S3 doesn't have a very good screen,build quality or looks and if Moto couldn't sell this at 200$ they need new marketing folks.
Granted the Atrix HD has a smallish battery and a huge bezel but since there is no great phone out there 200$ was ok. Reply
shabby - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkWhat is it with moto and its love for thick bezel's? This phone is 2mm wider than a galaxy nexus and has a 0.15" smaller screen. Even the razr is 1mm wider than the galaxy nexus and it has a puny 4.3" screen... hello moto! Reply
nevertell - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkThis functionality is available on all android devices that are capable of running Go Launcher EX. I've been using it on my 3VO for quite a while, it;s way better than sense in many ways. It has a multilevel dock and it doesn't matter if you use it's complimentary software (GoSMS, GoThis, GoThat) or stick with the stock software packages, it integrates really well with the phone.
I always thought of this as one of the greatest strengths of android, since even though you may have a manufacturer preloaded "desktop environment", you can always use the one you like on most of android devices out there. It's just like with desktop linux distributions now, where you can choose gnome2, gnome3, KDE, enlightenment, XFCE and many other DE's/window managers. Reply
jeffbui - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkFragmentation. To a casual user (95%+ of the population) this is unknown and unavailable. Reply
nevertell - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkJust as with the desktop environments, these "mobile environments" are cross-compatible. They are even better at adapting to different software environments as they are just a bit more than a glorified window manager for a home screen.
I don't see this kind of fragmentation any kinds of problems, since you can still access the same programs and use them as you would on either HTC sense, Touchwiz or Go Launcher. The only pieces of software that cause fragmentation are things that are truly unavailable on certain devices whilst being widely adopted on others, such as a manufacturer's built-in camera app or the whole OS, heck, gingerbread is still the most popular Android, even though Jelly Bean is just around the corner. Reply
Impulses - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkThat's not even remotely close to fragmentation, which has become a vague bogeyman... That's akin to calling Firefox or Chrome on a PC fragmentation of Windows, lol. The launcher is just an app like any other, any user that's not aware they can change it by installing a new one from the Play store probably couldn't care less about OS versions. Reply
Spunjji - Monday, July 16, 2012 - link+1 Reply
azntwboy - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkit would be great if you could please do a color accuracy test on this screen. so far there hasn't been a recent Android device with actual good color reproduction. its a shame. it makes me feel like getting an iPad 7 if the rumors are true, but I really don't like the proprietary methods of Apple. but I am in real need of a device with accurate colors for my work. Reply
MadMan007 - Sunday, July 15, 2012 - linkAccording to some intial reviews the 'ClearBoost' screen on this is oversaturated and the colors come off as very fake. Hopefully there are different color profiles, and if so they will each be tested. Reply
Impulses - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkOver saturated colors seem to be the order of the day on mobile displays since it impresses people in store, same as TVs really. We just don't get much in the way of calibration tools. My EVO's SLCD2 display seems more over saturated and less accurate than my one year old tablet's IPS display, I can't even imagine how SAMOLED displays look when showing off skin tones and other things very sensitive to color accuracy. Reply
Belard - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkBeen looking at replacing my SGS1 Captivate for the past month of so... Its been an okay phone, battery always sucked, the speaker phone sucked, the Alarm sucked even more. I never cared for its shape in which the top and bottom look/feel alike. The power button didn't stuck out quite enough. But it was the first Galaxy phone 2 years ago at $225... within a few months, $100.
Luckily, there is an at&t store with actual live phones (only Apple is willing to provide all at&t locations with real phones, not dummy mock-ups) to feel and use. Only thing that sucks about ALL of todays phones is the quest for larger screens... How about some 4" screens?
Lumia900 = $100 / Pros: looks great, feels great, camera button. Cons: WP7 (dead end platform, again MS?) and the screen edge kind of cuts into your hand... you feel it. Also, all the tech is 2 years old.
SONY Ion = $100 / Bigger than it needs to be, nice metal back, pretty wall paper (typical SONY) - has a dedicated Camera shutter button! CONs: Can't open the cover for the USB/HDMI - stupid rubber thingies. No nails. Also, not hearing anything great about the phone... not even here. skip!
Pantechs = $1 phones, older tech... seems to be cheap / breaks easily.
Samsung GS3 = $200 / Like the actual HOME button. at&t has red now. Top end phone. CONs: Cheap glossy plastic back feels as cheap as it looks. Feeling the back, you'll barely notice which end is up. Still in consideration.
Samsung Galaxy Nexus = $200 / Feels better than the SGS3, same button arrangement... just removed from at&t. Its bottom end is bigger, so you know quickly which way is up.
HTC One X = $200 / Excellent shape and feel... has texture. Love the message light. CONSs: The power button is on the top. Okay, my personal issue. I'm used to it on the side.
Motorola ATRIX HD = $100 / Looks very nice - a but old-school looking. Can tell which end is up - front and back. No covers over HDMI/USB. Smallest screen of new phones (4.5") Cons: No actual phone buttons (how well does Launcher7 run on it?) - don't know if this is a good or bat thing yet.
I really wish they would make phones with physical main buttons. Like the Samsung Rugby. Reply
amdwilliam1985 - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkSamsung GS3, Galaxy Nexus & HTC One X are all solid phones.
I personally will go for the SGS3 for the superior overall experience, put a case on it if you don't like the plastic. Pick Nexus for the fastest software update. Or One X for the beats I guess.
I got SGS2 and I love it, having it run "naked" this whole time. No screen protector, no case. I really like the phone shape and the texture(TMobile SGS2) of its back.
Every time I pick up my gf's iPhone 4s, I say it out loud, "This iBrick is heavy." All iPhones I saw have cases, so that made all of they look/feel cheap. Reply
Belard - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkYep, they are all great phones. So we should choose based on preference.
I don't put phones in cases. They are made to look good, no? Beats means nothing to me... It's branded loudness for the most part. I've returned a dinky Sony phone because it was flimsy garbage (looked nice) and spent $230 for an unlocked Sony slider which I still use today as an alarm clock.
There are different covers for the iPhone. Having a glass back is a problem as many people break them. I've been considering the iphone4, it's a very nice looking phone.
The SGS3 has a cheap feel... But has a nice shape. The hdmi on the MC is handy. Reply
Arbie - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - link
... which if any of them support SD or microSD?? I'm not going to buy a phone or tablet without it,
Arbie Reply
Belard - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkThe Atrix HD has a microSD slot on the side (you can see the cover on the left side in the pictures above) - supports up to 32GB.
Really can't wait to see the full review of this phone... waiting, waiting, waiting. Reply
Burticus - Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - linkHow is it? I crave a smartphone that I can leave the house with without taking a charger with me. Reply
peevee - Monday, July 30, 2012 - linkThe Android phone makers are completely insane. 5 years (!!!) after iPhone release they still cannot comprehend one simple truth - plastic belongs in $1 stuff, not in $600-$800 phones (and that is what even $0 subsidized price really is). You just cannot make it look and feel expensive with plastic, even if you call the plastic "polycarbonate" or any other name. Steel, Aluminum alloys, Titanium, glass, noble woods, leather - your choice, but not plastic (and preferably not magnesium alloys either - they look and feel - as in "specific thermoconductivity" - too close to plastic).
And there should not be any visible joints on the back - they look unsightly and produce creaks.
And there should be immediate updates to new Android versions the same day Google releases it (you can make your testing-development on betas) for as long as hardware supports it (which is AT LEAST 3 years).
It is not that expensive - component cost of $500 notebook is MUCH MUCH more (processors-LCD-battery etc) than the $600 phone. Reply
Belard - Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - linkThe seams on the back vary... some have kick stands, some have removable backs - which look a bit better since you don't need a slot for the SD-CARD and SIM CARD...
The good thing with a non-removable back is a more water-proof phone... slightly. Reply
Demi9OD - Monday, August 06, 2012 - linkI own this phone but am considering switching it out for the HTC One X during my 30 day grace period. I got caught up with the hype and started with a SGIII. The screen dimness was really unforgivable even at full brightness for use as a navigation unit for driving. I took my old Droid X2 (Verizon) and the SGIII into the AT&T store to compare screens. The X2, though hated on for the low quality screen, was just a beast in the brightness department on full torch. It ran pretty well with CM7, but had it's flaws, especially with Pandora. The Atrix HD looked a little brighter at full blast and they sucked me in with the $100 cheaper entry, the free vehicle dock, and $40 worth of free accessories. This made the Atrix HD effectively a $20 phone compared to the SGIII and HTC One X @ $200.
My complaints with the Atrix HD are primarily due to the battery, which drains incredibly quickly. The camera is also sub par. The display is definitely over-saturated, akin to cranking up digital vibrance on an nvidia video card if you are familiar with the effect.
All that said, does the One X have a vehicle dock with built in charging? Both my Motorola phones, the X2 and Atrix HD, have fantastic Moto brand vehicle docks with drop in charging. This is much preferred to connecting a cable every time I use it in my car. Reply
Belard - Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - linkReally? The worst I read about the phone is the battery life. But that with tweaks and using their SMARTACTIONS seems to help a lot.
I use a real camera for photos... so that means little to me. I was looking at the dock anyway... so that makes it a better deal, I guess the dock doesn't charge, eh? Reply
Demi9OD - Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - linkBattery life has improved over a couple of cycles. The vehicle dock charges and is really nice. Sticking with the Atrix HD. Reply
Belard - Saturday, September 22, 2012 - linkGot the Atrix HD. The battery life has improved quite a bit in its first week. The first day was horrible... in which little usage sucked up battery life. 7 days, with typical Phone/data usage - I'm only using 50% battery within 24hrs.
GPS is smokin... love it Reply
Nolimitsdesigns - Saturday, February 09, 2013 - linkI've been reading through this forum and have realised people make no sense.
In the earlier comments people were slating the Atrix family without giving any actual reasons. The comment that iphones are better got to me. Until the iphone 5 the Atrix (even the 4g) wiped the floor both on paper and in life.
I've had an atrix and had no problems that weren't my own doing (had a problem with rooting) and I now have an atrix 2 which also has no problems. Haven't yet seen it necessary to get the hd. I also don't like the look.
Another thing that proves people aren't that bright is the constant comparisons to quad core phones. Phones with twice the power will be faster. Simple. They will over heat. They will drain their batteries. A good dual core though will prove better in day to day life. Until they improve the batteries or consumption.
Tegra chips are great for gamers and I agree (with earlier comments) that phones will soon overtake consoles. Tegra chips are(in my experience) reliable and friendly on the consumption front. I would much prefer my old atrix 4g to an iphone 5!! Reply


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No. 1 UF gymnastics tops Hogs on road
Published: Friday, February 1, 2013 at 11:00 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, February 2, 2013 at 12:19 a.m.
FAYETTEVILLE — The No. 1 Florida gymnastics team used the nation's second-highest total of 2013 to take the win at No. 22 Arkansas on Friday in front a Barnhill Arena crowd of 5,278.
Florida (4-1, 3-1 SEC) posted a 197.575 while the Razorbacks (1-3, 0-3 SEC) turned in a season-high 196.175.
For the second consecutive Friday, the Gators were wearing pink. After tonight's performance, the Gators may consider wearing the hue more often. Last week in the Gators Link to Pink meet, Florida used the nation's top total of 197.675 to take the win and move into the No. 1 position in this week's national rankings. Tonight, the Gators were sporting the color again for Arkansas' Pink Meet and UF's winning total of 197.575 stands second to last Friday's total.
Friday night, the reigning SEC Gymnast of the Week and 2012 NCAA all-around champion, Kytra Hunter, performed only in the uneven bars and junior All-American Alaina Johnson was still out resting her back.
Florida head coach Rhonda Faehn couldn't have asked for a better response from the team.
"I was really happy with the way all of our athletes responded, especially knowing that we were going to rest Kytra on three of the four events and Alaina was still out," Faehn said. "They knew we were going to change up the lineups. And what I loved was that every athlete stepped up and took ownership of their event."
Florida punctuated solid uneven bars and vault lineups with scores of 9.95. Junior Mackenzie Caquatto claimed her second uneven bars win of the season with her 9.95 and senior Ashanee Dickerson used the same mark to take her third vault victory of 2013.
Freshman Bridget Sloan used a collegiate-best 9.925 to claim her second collegiate balance beam title.
Florida's three all-arounders all were very close in the final scoring. Sloan shared her first collegiate all-around win with Dickerson at 39.55. It was Dickerson's third all-around win of the season and the 16th of her career. Senior Marissa King posted a season-best 39.50 Friday to take third.
The top two teams in the 2012 NCAA Championship competition meet this Friday in the O'Connell Center for one of the nation's top dual meets of the 2013 season. Florida plays host to defending NCAA champion and No. 5 Alabama (3-0, 3-0 SEC) on Friday at 7 p.m. The first 1,200 through the door Friday receive an orange or blue light up stick.
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.

subset: commoncrawl


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Firing ranges for low fire clay
Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:36 AM
Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:30 AM
I usually work in terra cotta or other low fire clays. When there is a firing range given for a clay, I understand that the high end of the range will provide the most strength in the finished, fired piece (although I'm told that it won't become vitreous if it's lowfire clay), but what, specifically, is the lower number telling me? Will there be a significant difference in the strength of the piece if I fire it at the high end of the range or the low end? And is a low fire clay a poor choice for a necklace pendant? Will it be fragile no matter how high it's fired?
Depends on how accurate the given range is. Amazingly, most clay producers don't even do MOR test on their clays and some advertize clays as having a "maturity" range from something like cone 3 to cone 10 which is total BS. It is either way underfired at cone 3 or way overfired at cone 10. I've always assumed firing any clay as high as you can without it beginning to deform will result in that clay's strongest state, but John B. here says that isn't true, that a clay can begin to lose strength from overfiring before it deforms. But, still, it's a pretty sure bet that if your clay's maturity range is from cone 04 to cone 01 that it will be stronger at cone 01 than at cone 04.
Clay strength depends of the composition of the clay, lack of additives like sand and grog, and being fired to full maturity, not how high it is fired. Pete Pinnell's MOR tests even showed earthenware fired to maturity was stronger than the stonewares and porcelains fired to maturity at cone 10 that he tested. Rob Roy later questioned the accuracy of the earthenware part of the test. In short, if your terra cotta is grog- and sand-free and fired to maturity, it should be as strong as most other clays.
"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.
Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:45 AM
As to its being fragile ... its jewelry so it's supposed to be treated with care ... I have glass jewelry, fragile beads, raku pendants ... nothing broken yet.
Contemporary Fine Colored Porcelain
" If a sufficient number of people are different, no one has to be normal "
Fredrick Bachman
Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:01 AM
For jewelry, a lot of potters make choices based on color results ... the same red clay looks extremely different at all the various firing temps. They stop when they like the color.
As to its being fragile ... its jewelry so it's supposed to be treated with care ... I have glass jewelry, fragile beads, raku pendants ... nothing broken yet.
Good point. I like Lizella Red which goes through a whole range of reds from a pale orange around cone 1 getting darker until it is a dark brown at its maturity at cone 8. I like it best around cone 4 but usually fire it to cone 6. For about a century this clay was used to make flower pots from shot glass-size to pots big enough for a kid to hide in and they were shipped all over the country packed in a little pine straw. They were fired to about cone 010.
"But it does move," said Galileo under his breath.
Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:23 PM
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Samsung Details Exynos 5 Octa Architecture & Power at ISSCC '13by Anand Lal Shimpi on 2/20/2013 12:42 PM EST
- Posted in
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- Cortex A15
- Cortex A7
- SoC
- exynos 5 octa
52 Comments
Back to Article
alex3run - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkAnd where is the official information about the GPU and it's power consumption? Reply
rd_nest - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2249399/s... Reply
toyotabedzrock - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThat does not sound like a sgx gpu.
I think they should find a gpu that supports opengl es 3 Reply
rd_nest - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - link72GFlops..Most probably T604. Was same for N10. Reply
lmcd - Sunday, February 24, 2013 - linkI think it's pretty obviously an ARM solution as that's what they have experience with. I think that also makes more sense because they have been touting the benefits of using those combinations. Furthermore the 544MP3 would practically be a step back from the T604, even ignoring the other ARM and IT solutions they could use.
Their rep probably got it wrong. Reply
banvetor - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkOne of the unanswered questions at ISSCC was what is the delay penalty from switching between the A7 and the A15 cores... I don't see all that bright future for this baby. Reply
StormyParis - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkWhy ? because of a switching delay you don't know, for a switch you don't know the frequency of ? Reply
jeffkibuule - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI don't think the delay switch matters that much, when the goal of these chips is reasonable performance with good battery life, not maximum performance, otherwise you much as well just chuck the A7 cores and run the A15s at full blast. Reply
twotwotwo - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkYeah, the compromise-y nature of it is important for the whole thing to make sense. In theory, 6W's a lot. In real use, you rarely hit that--you usually just blast 1-2 of the A15s for a few seconds while you load a webpage or app or do some other big chunk of CPU-bound work.
If I'm going to second-guess and play armchair engineer (as DigitalFreak aptly put it), maybe you can imagine other uses for all that die area than going 4+4-core when many workloads still aren't heavily threaded--more cache w/the A15s, more GPU (I bet games on 1080p phone screens can use a lot), something. Apple was OK with dual-core, at least as of the A6(X). Other hand, I haven't the first clue how other designs perform, etc. and Samsung does, so I should close my mouth. :) Reply
wsw1982 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI don't see the mansion of L3 cache, and the L2 cache of A7 and A15 are not shared. Therefore, it's highly possible the switch is across the main memory, which may add mile-seconds of delay (dumping and reloading cache data to and from low power ddr, power down and warm up the cores). How much should A15/A7 done to just even out of the performance and energy penalty of switching? Reply
Wilco1 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThe L2 caches have a special port to allow cachelines to be swapped directly. When both caches are powered up, coherency is maintained between them. Reply
DigitalFreak - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkWe have an armchair engineer in 'da house! Reply
xaml - Saturday, February 23, 2013 - linkAn ARM-chair engineer... ;) Reply
Wilco1 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkEver heard of Google?
http://samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/m... Reply
tuxRoller - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkIt depends on what is handling the switching.
These initial implementations are using a cpufreq driver with internel core switching being moved from the hypervisor to the kernel in order to switch between pairs (as illustrated above, the heterogeneous mode will come after a good solution is found for the scheduler). The switching times aren't bad b/c you have cache coherency (not shown above) and thus you only need to transfer the active register states.
http://lwn.net/Articles/501501/#Add%20Minimal%20Su... Reply
amdwilliam1985 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI can't wait to see benchmarks on these.
"While it's possible for you to use both in parallel, initial software implementations will likely just allow you to run on the A7 or A15 clusters and switch based on performance requirements."
-Imagine future projects such as OUYA based on this baby with all cores enabled :)
This will be a perfect HTPC.
Intel better be prepare, time is ticking. Seems like every generation, ARM cpu takes a big jump in performance. Reply
Jinxed_07 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThere's a difference between a more powerful CPU and one that simply has more cores slapped on. If ARM really had a more powerful CPU, then this architecture would only have one smaller CPU that was able to run everything while consuming less eneregy, rather then needing two in order to save energy.
Futhermore, if Intel should be afraid of ARM, then they should be afraid of AMD for making an 8-core processor that outperforms a 4-core processor by a bit. Reply
flyingpants - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkHello. In the first chart, it says both quad core CPUs are ARM 7. No mention of ARM 15. Is this correct? Reply
Cow86 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI'm afraid you are confused in this case...that is the architecture of the cores, being ARM v7...all Cortex cores use this architecture, the A5, A7, A8, A9 and A15...so it is correct :) The left column in that table is the A15, the right is the A7. Reply
pyaganti - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkAny idea why samsung is using A7 for little instead of A5? If A7 and A5 are both ARM v7 archietecture, it makes more sense if they use A5 instead of A7. Beacuse A5 is low power core than A7 and thats the main concept of little core right? Reply
Cow86 - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkBecause the A7 is specifically designed to be a Little core to the A15. The A5 is not. Furthermore the A7 has a better performance/watt than the A5, and a very similar die size. Reply
saurabhr8here - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkBoth say ARM v7a, which is the instruction set architecture. Both A7 and A15 processors use the same instruction set, hence they are able to implement the big.LITTLE architecture in the first place. Reply
twotwotwo - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkNah, it's talking about the instruction set. v7a is the common instruction set for the A7 and A15 microarchitectures. Reply
MrSpadge - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThe Architecture is Arm v7a, the actual chip designs are called A7 and A15. This means both designs understand the same instructions and can thus run the same software (which is needed for quick transparent switches). ARM is not very good at the naming game yet. Reply
SetiroN - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkIt can be misleading if you don't pay attention, ARM v7a is the architecture revision (ISA), Cortex A15 and A7 are the core's names, which aren't mentioned on that chart. Reply
toyotabedzrock - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI have to wonder if they tested the a7 to ensure it has the power to run the ui smoothly. Reply
UpSpin - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkNo, they never test it. They haven't even tested if the SoC works at all. And the performance numbers, they are just random numbers. /s
The A7 is only slightly slower than an A9. Android JB runs smooth on dual core A9 SoCs because it makes heavy use of the GPU for rendering. So for lag free UI the GPU will be more important.
A quad core A7 will be faster than a A9 dual core! It will handle the usual tasks without any issues at all. Reply
tuxRoller - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkhttp://www.arm.com/products/processors/cortex-a/co...
They're claiming around a 20% improvement, but I'm guessing that's at the high end. Other numbers I've seen claim it to be a bit below an A8.
However, it uses MUCH less power than these other chips (arm claim it's similar to an A5 in terms of power draw).
Considering it looks as though the biggest change (to the A8) is in the branch prediction, and it should clock higher,
http://www.arm.com/products/processors/cortex-a/co... Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThe A7 is supposed to have just slightly less performance than an A9, but with much reduced power requirements. It will most likely take over from the A8 and low-end A9 SoCs for low-to-middle-range phones. Look for dual-core A7s to hit "feature" phones this year. Reply
MrSpadge - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkLooks like sharing the L2 between both CPU clusters might be a good idea. Done in some clever way it could even speed the switching up. Reply
UpSpin - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkAccording to the chart, the Quad Core A15 part consumes about 5W! Probably CPU only. If this SoC is put inside a smartphone, the battery would be dead in less than an hour if you also consider the power consumption of the display and PowerVR GPU..
This SoC is for tablets with large enough batteries and large enough surface to passivly cool the 5W+GPU waste power. Maybe in the next Galaxy Note 10 it will find a use or in a boosted Nexus 10, but never in a smartphone. Reply
tempestglen - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - link4xA15=4.5 watt
4xA7=0.75 watt
80% of phone's running time is low performance, so battery life of exynos octa will be good. Reply
Aenean144 - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkIt really depends on the 80%.
The A7 turns back the clock about 3 years back to the Cortex-A8 days in terms of DMIPS/Hz. I can easily see many an app, process or thread wanting more. Will be interesting to see where running a web browser will land. It's not going to be pretty if it stays on the A7. Reply
UpSpin - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkA7 has 1.9 DMIPS/MHz, A9 has 2.5 DMIPS/MHz.
The Galaxy Nexus has a 1.2 GHz Dual Core A9 --> 6000 DMIPS
This SoC has a 1.2 GHz Quad Core A7 --> 9120 DMIPS
Really, the LITTLE part should handle any normal tasks easily. Video playback gets done by hardware decoders, GUI rendering gets done by the GPU, website parsing and other processing stuff gets done by the CPU.
The Galaxy Nexus runs fluid. This A7 quad core is at least 30% faster, a smartphone could live without the A15 easily. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkAll very true. :D
My Galaxy Nexus has some "think pauses" (I'm running a custom everything, so not sure if that happens on plain Android). But when that happens I often wonder if it is a CPU issue or a memory one. It mostly happens when starting/switching between memory intensive apps (big emails, video, browser). Would the noticeable performance increase be bigger from an A15 upgrade or from getting a midway decent SSD with >200MB/s seq r/w and >30MB/s rnd r/w. :) Reply
UpSpin - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkThat's the idea behind big.LITTLE. In low demanding tasks use the A7 in high performance task use the A15.
But the device must be able to handle the A15 power consumption.
But if the A15 consume 5W and you start a game which will most probably make a use of the A15 power, your smartphone battery will be dead in an hour, just because of the CPUs.
Yes, in standby the battery life will be good, but I never denied this. That's what big.LITTLE is made for.
In heavy use however, this SoC will, with CPU and GPU full power, consume, most probably, 10W. A smartphone battery has <10Wh. A smartphone surface is too small to dissipate 10W.
This SoC won't find a use in a smartphone. It's physically impossible, except you never make a use of the A15 cores, which defies the purpose of this SoC! Reply
Aenean144 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI think that's just CPU.
If you assume 3.5 DMIPS/MHz for Cortex-A15, a quad-core A15 running at 2 GHz is 3500*2*4 = 28000 DMIPS. That's quite close to the point in the upper right in the plot, which is actually a little over 5 Watts. Maybe 5.2 W.
Even in a tablet, the SoC may be prevented from maxing out the CPU and the GPU at the same time. This could be an 8 to 10 W SoC with both the GPU and CPU maxed out. Reply
xaml - Saturday, February 23, 2013 - linkIt is prominently claimed so for this very reason, here:
http://www.sammobile.com/2013/02/23/samsung-ditche... Reply
xaml - Saturday, February 23, 2013 - linkThat was @UpSpin, for the prehistoric lack of editing. Reply
lmcd - Sunday, February 24, 2013 - linkDisappointing. Exynos 5 Octa should have made it in there. And as some commenter noted, a 720p SAMOLED+ would be preferable to the 1080p SLCD cited. Reply
alexvoda - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkIs it me or is the layout of that chip really inefficient?
I'm not really knowledgeable in chip design but I think the orange brown area around the CPU may possibly be wasted surface.
At least compared to these:
There doesn't seam to be a lot of space left for the GPU.
And since this will probably come in 1080p or higher devices the GPU matters Reply
Death666Angel - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkIt's just you. :P
The stuff you linked to has the exact same "orange brown area". And that probably isn't wasted surface. Reply
UpSpin - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI don't think the die photo shows the whole die, only the upper half maybe.
I'm also no chip designer, but maybe the orange brown area gets used for wires to connect the different parts.
The top left part looks odd, not orange brown, not structured, but near the RAM interfaces. Maybe they blurred that part because it contains their 'secret CPU switching' part? Reply
alexvoda - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkI see.
Yup, the photo only shows half of the die, Really made it more confusing.
I didn't mean wasted and in empty and does nothing but more as in no active component. And if that was the entire die the percentage occupied by the orange brown space would have been huge. Since this is probably just half of the die it matters a lot less. Reply
alex3run - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkI think Samsung would unveil more details about this SoC later. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI was saying years ago how intel needed to take an atom and stick it on the same die as an i-series chip. And essentially do with them exactly what is described in this article. But of course, they didnt do it, and as a result they lost billions in potential mobile chip sales to companies like apple. Haswell looks kind of like an improvement, but you can tell they're still not doing what needs to be done.
90% of the time, a tablet/ultrabook only needs the cpu power of one single atom core. This is the basic fact that has been ignored by intel (and AMD) for more than a decade now. But samsung understands this. Reply
djgandy - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkThe problem with laptops was not the CPU, it was all the other cheap components that sucked power. Laptop screens are terrible and good value ones still use mechanical hard drives! Reply
UpSpin - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkNo!
Extra devices get shut down if not used.
Laptop screens are/were terrible, but this means they are low resolution TN panels. But TN panels have better transmittance than IPS. Low resolution displays have better transmittance than high resolution. I hope you're able to follow, but this means, yes, they are more efficient and don't require such a bright backlight.
The power consumption of a HDD is, in idle, higher than the one of a SSD. But therefore you get more space. And in general, the impact is small compared to the CPU and GPU power consumption.
I'm sorry, your logic is flawed.
Btw: This is an article about the power consumption of a SoC, and only the SoC! Why do you compare it with the power consumption of a whole system? This SoC consumes less power than an Intel CPU/GPU/chipset combo. That's what matters. Nothing else! So don't compare apples with oranges.
shadowmaster is right, your post nonsene. Reply
mayankleoboy1 - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linksmart move to abandon Mali arch. It was slow compared to the PowerVR GPU's.
But is it enough to win benchmarks against iPhone6 and iPad5 ?
And Adreno 320 is a wimp by comparison. Reply
alex3run - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkMali T604 is the same level as PowerVR 554 @280 MHz. And PowerVR 544MP3 is slower than both of those GPUs. So it would be very strange to see it inside Exynos Octa. More likely there will be Mali T658/678MP4 which is twice as fast as anything on the market today. Reply
lmcd - Sunday, February 24, 2013 - linkBut I'd rather have seen a Quad-core A7 and Dual-core A15. I feel at least two of the four possible threads should always be on a LP core. Maybe an Exynos 5 Hexa, and an Exynos 5 Octa for the next Chrome book (plus a bigger battery).
That Exynos 5 Hexa could then fit another (power gated) GPU module. Or maybe a small 2d accelerator to allow constant gating of the GPU during normal usage (like the OMAP 4470)
Regardless, the Exynos 5 Dual is too weak of a low end (between low core count and no LP cores) while the 5 Octa is too strong. *Sigj* this time I feel I really could armchair-engineer a better solution. Reply
lmcd - Sunday, February 24, 2013 - linkThat was supposed to be a *sigh* Reply


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350-450W Roundup: 11 Cheap PSUsby Martin Kaffei on 7/3/2012 1:30 PM EST
67 Comments
Back to Article
fic2 - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI have bought two of these on sale from newegg for about $17 after $20 rebate. For $17 these are great power supplies. Reply
Martin Kaffei - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkCorsair is always a good choice. Enjoy! Reply
esteinbr - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI agree. I purchased one of these on a similar deal at NewEgg. They ended up sending the 600w version of the PS so I got an even better deal on it but it's been a good inexpensive power supply. I do agree that it definitely isn't silent when the fan really spins up but it's not horrible either.
Newegg happens to have this PS for 25$ after 20$ mail in rebate right now. Reply
ImSpartacus - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkYou got a competent 600W PSU for 17 bucks? You lucky SoB!
I hope it found a good home in a nice machine. Reply
StevoLincolnite - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkI've had a Corsair HX 620 for about 6 years now and it has NEVER skipped a beat, "only" got 1 year left on the warranty, I've recently relegated it to another machine and grabbed a Corsair HX 850.
The thing with Corsair PSU's though is that you always have peace of mind as all the PSU's they offer are good. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 08, 2012 - linkNone of these power supplies in the article are CHEAP - save perhaps the one Sinan that almost nobody likely recognizes.
These PS are low wattage near top of the line PS.
I'm not certain how the anand reviewer got that so wrong.
Whatever - it's one word but still... it's the concept, and being correct about what is spewing forth that counts.
These are EXPENSIVE power supplies.
I can show the never joe blows here some cheap power supplies - or the article writer - since the elitist smell of self aggrandization is all about...
I can't make it on 100K a year either... Reply
nipplefish - Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - linkuh... pipe down over there, guy. the most expensive psu is 55 dollars. most are around 30-40. what's cheap? 10 bucks? if you need a 10 dollar psu maybe you should reconsider your choice of hobbies. Reply
JonnyDough - Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - linkTotally agree. Tom's wouldn't recommend low quality (cheap!) PSU's for two very good reasons:
For one, you save money by spending more, especially if you leave your PC on all the time. Better efficiency at idle means you pollute less, and spend less money on energy.
Secondly, if your PSU dies, your motherboard can go too. Who wants to waste money and have the hassle of that? Buy quality. At least if your motherboard perishes it probably isn't your fault (as long as you pay attention to ESD. Also, although you can buy better grade motherboards too by doing your research, but you will still get the one that dies the second day you use it now and then).
If you want to buy an exploding toaster to power your PC have at it. That's one less ignorant poster online. Reply
GeorgeH - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkYou get what you pay for. I bought two of the V2 units - both exhibited coil whine across multiple builds and one failed to run reliably (standby power issues.) One I gave away and one is sitting on my parts shelf. It's anecdotal evidence but still enough to make me avoid them.
Antec's EarthWatts 380D has been my default choice for awhile now, but I'll have to give some of these a shot. Reply
Avalon - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI don't think "you get what you pay for" always applies, because I bought a Seasonic X650 gold a while back, which is a fairly expensive and highly rated unit, and I get coil whine. It happens. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, July 08, 2012 - linkThese are all elitist power supplies, not you get what you pay for power supplies.
Try to find 6 pin + 6+2 pin on a 450W anywhere... they are RARE.
This is NOT the cheap power supply review - this is the name brand poular low wattage PS review. Reply
marvdmartian - Monday, July 09, 2012 - linkSorry, but were you looking for a review of, say, a PowMax power supply?? Not sure why you refer (twice, in two posts) to these power supplies as "elitist.
Trust me, you don't need to make $100K/year salary to own these. Especially the Corsairs, which are regularly on sale for <$20, after mail in rebate. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - linkI just said why, but you're "not sure" why, probably the "not sure" from the movie Idiocracy. Reply
Black1969ta - Saturday, July 14, 2012 - linkmore like a member of the Cabinet. Reply
rickcain2320 - Thursday, July 12, 2012 - linkDon't ever mention PowMax in my presence ever again, speak not that word. Reply
zero2dash - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkVery surprised to see the VP-450 not make the list of candidates.
Between what you have here, I've used both the Corsair CX line and the Rosewill Green line. After a disappointment with the CX and coil whine, it was replaced with a Rosewill RG and I couldn't be happier.
Bottom of the barrel, me personally I'd go with either the RG or now the Antec VP-450.
I'm not spending $50 on a <500w PSU, sorry. You can get a decent 500-600w, sometimes having to wait on a rebate or a coupon code but nonetheless - Antec NeoEco, Antec HCG, even a Corsair TX2, for not much more than that. Reply
Martin Kaffei - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkSpeaking of prices. The Raider is not available yet and the going price will be much lower than the MSRP.
Antec didn't reply to my email and I wasn't able to get the US version in Germany. Anyway, I will try to get cheap Antec PSUs next time. Thank you for your comment. Reply
JonnyDough - Wednesday, July 11, 2012 - linkThat's because you're a moron. Just because it supplies lower wattage does not mean that it is any less important or valuable than an 800w power supply. Voltage regulation is pretty simple, getting no ripple and getting good efficiency is a bit harder. You pay for quality, not for wattage. If you want junk, then buy junk. This was for people who are serious about their PCs and want them to work well and last for awhile. Reply
Lonyo - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkWhile this is a nice article on low(er) power PSUs, would it be possible to see some sort of real world enthusiast article which focuses on NAS/HTPC boxes and power?
For instance, there's a Zotac Atom DTX board with 6 SATA connectors and two PCIe slots (x1 and x16 I think). Theoretically you could have 14+ HDDs hooked up (killer NAS for the motherboard form factor).
Something looking at the power of a NAS or HTPC with regards to PSUs would be nice. A 70% efficient 400w PSU would consume a lot more (relative) power on a low wattage box than something like a DC power supply with adapter (from experience), since they can get closer to 95% I believe in lower power situations.
It would also be nice to see peak (boot) power for such a HDD loaded system in terms of what sort of PSU is required to boot the thing without staggered spinup.
I personally made a G620T system with a 250w mATX PSU, which I swapped out for a PicoPSU, and dropped power use from about 35w IIRC, to 25w, which is a lot in % terms, although in absolutes it's not all that significant.
Just a thought for an article if there is the desire. I definitely am interested in low power HTPC and NAS boxes (considering building a NAS box with the above mentioned Zotac DTX board in the coming months). Reply
Martin Kaffei - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI'm able to review all PSUs with AC input and DC output.
SFX, TFX PSUs, Picos in combination with laptop adapters.
How about some 300W SFX units and 90W adapters? Most PicoPSU are very good but the adapter is usually a bit of a problem. Nobody takes a look inside. Quite often the quality is abysmal . Reply
arthur449 - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI'm not sure how hard it would be, but would it be possible to write up a review of a few PicoPSU adapters? I've considered a few for low-power builds, but I've always been wary of the little no-name sealed plastic bricks that come with them.
Then again, I don't know if Anandtech would be the ideal audience for such a review. Reply
clarkn0va - Friday, July 06, 2012 - linkDitto. I own a wide variety of PicoPSU and other related electronics from mini-box/ituner, as well as some similar Antec DC-DC products. I would love to see more of this stuff reviewed, with some emphasis on the "black box" bricks that can be had for very little outlay in some cases. Reply
freezervv - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - link> I'm not sure how hard it would be, but would it be possible to write up a review of a few PicoPSU adapters?
This!! Please.
It's difficult to find information on suitable adapters, and it's kind of a critical part of the build given how little PicoPSUs filter their input (afaicr). Reply
Machelios - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - link
I noticed that the enermax PSU that you reviewed is not the same as the one on newegg. In the gallery, (this pic:http://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/2123#7) the model is ENP450AWT.
However, you say you are revieweing the ENP450AST, which is the one available on newegg.
The ENP450AST (newegg link:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8... lacks the 80 plus bronze certification and has less sleeved cables as far as I can see.
So, it seems you have reviewed the wrong psu... Reply
Machelios - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linksorry, the link was wrong for the psu on newegg
here is the right one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8... Reply
Martin Kaffei - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI love those manufactureres with hundreds of versions. Ironically they didn't want me to review their Triathlor 385W as it is "not available in the US".
The AST is also a good PSU.
However, pricing will be a problem now.
Thank you for this correction. Reply
Flashfir - Tuesday, December 01, 2015 - linkAST is also a good PSU eh? I trust you know what you're talking about - care to elucidate? I shared this on this thread in slickdeals and your post/comment about the Enermax will get some attention there so your comments would be much appreciated by many ;)
http://slickdeals.net/f/8336981-enermax-naxn-enp45... Reply
augiem - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI find that the one crucial point missing in ALL computer hardware reviews is long term reliability. It's understandable given the circumstances, but I wish there were some way for hardware reviewers to do some kind of simulated stress testing. I have found over the years, especially with motherboards and power supplies, that the reviews that award winners based on their feature set don't always do well long-term. The only way I've found to get an indication of this factor is through user reviews, which is not a perfect either as most reviews posted a few months past initial purchase are negative. Still it gives me a little better way to compare.
I personally have had quite numerous failures 6 months+ out with excellently reviewed hardware, especially when its a lesser-known brand or a newcomer to the field. Reply
piroroadkill - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkYou can get some idea from the quality of components used, the soldering, and so on..
But yes, a soak test would be nice.
HardOCP does something close to this - their Torture Test - 8 hours @ 80% load, which is quite a nice test. Maybe something like this but for a bit longer?
Maybe with a high ambient temperature.. Maybe some power cycling during the test (to full cold, then back on again) to test cold joints and how well the PSU copes with heat cycling.
I don't know, just some ideas. But yeah, these tests would quite a bit of time. Reply
arthur449 - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkLook at the product's warranty and its terms and conditions. Pay close attention to how long the warranty lasts on replacements. A 5-year warranty doesn't mean much if they're only guaranteeing the replacement for 90-days. The longer a company is willing to allow easy and (mostly) free replacement of the product, the longer they're guessing it should last. Divide product price by the number of years the company allows hassle-free replacement for a rough estimate of long term value.
Of course, this doesn't apply to new brands that simply haven't been around for very long, or brands that are simply rebadging cheap 'no-name' vendors. Reply
Freddo - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI bought a FSP Aurum 400W 80 Plus Gold about a year ago, and I'm EXTREMELY pleased with it. It's very cool and energy efficient
I have my computer on pretty much 24/7, but last week I turned it off for pretty much the first time since I got the PSU to install more RAM, and the PSU was still very cool, didn't feel like it was on at all.
http://www.fspgroupusa.com/aurum-gold-400-au400/p/... Reply
jasonnovak - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkThis power supply has been on sale for under $20 after rebates a few times over the last months - it's on sale right now for another day, at newegg 15% off code and rebate.
It's a re-badged Seasonic S12II - high quality unit. I got a few as spares, use a HCG-620 myself. Reply
Guspaz - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI've got a Shuttle SZ77R5 with a 500W PSU, running an i7-3770k and a GeForce GTX 670... It doesn't get all that much faster than this without your cost/performance ratio going to crap, and the 500W PSU is way more than enough.
Why this is the case should be obvious: the processor has a 77W TDP, the graphics chip has a tdp of 170W, which is 247W at full load, and those are the two biggest power draws in the case. Yes, the other parts use power, like the hard disks (I've got SSDs), fans, memory, chipset, etc. but not enough to max out even a 500W PSU. Reply
QChronoD - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkFor your system a 500W supply sounds great, but for other people they might have more stuff in their box that needs more power. For example, my main system has an i7-920, GTX 560, and 14hdds. It was giving me random fits occasionally when rebooting on my old 650W supply (can't remember the name but I believe it was one of the recommended ones either on here or tom's or someplace) I ended up replacing it with an 850W and now I don't get restart cycles anymore. Theoretically, the 650W supply had enough power to run everything (and still 100+W of spare capacity), but something wasn't happy and a large supply seems to have fixed everything. Reply
Finally - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkBullshit.
What you are describing is the American mentality towards the environment, not much else. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkI think he's almost certainly correct in that the PSU was a problem -- HDDs tend to draw power differently than GPUs and CPUs (same voltage, different rails). The real question is what he's doing with 14 HDDs in a single system. Sounds more like something for a file server, and if you're running a file server you should probably also have a higher quality PSU to begin with.
As for your contention that he has an "American mentality towards the environment", kindly take your stereotyping elsewhere. Very likely this has nothing at all to do with his nationality and is simply a reflection of his enthusiasm for computers and technology. Reply
KAlmquist - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkHard drives are commonly designed to draw up to 2 amps on the 12 volt line when spinning up, so if you spin up 14 hard drives at ones the power draw could be 2A * 12V * 14 = 672 watts. Normally, systems with large numbers of hard drives are configured to spin up a few drives at a time to avoid overloading the power supply. The alternative is to do what you did: buy a very large power supply. Reply
JimmiG - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkStill running a Corsair 450W VX PSU since 2007 here. Currently with an overclocked Phenom II X4 system and GTX460. Rock solid. I always laugh when people ask whether their new 750W PSU's will be enough for a Sandy Bridge and Radeon 6850 plus one SSD... Reply
bwave - Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - linkWhy would you consider any of these when you can get a Cooler Master Elite 460W for $29.99 or a Cooler Master 500w for $37.99 ?
I've used hundreds of the Cooler Masters with zero failures, very high quality and it's a name brand! Reply
'nar - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkThat's what I want to know. I use the same two all the time, but I am almost scared to find out how they actually test.
Most users do not notice, and do not care. They only want the cheapest PSU. I may get them to allow me to installed a better one, but only so far. Most of the PSU's reviewed here are marginal in that regard.
We're talking about systems with a core i3 and integrated graphics, and a single hard drive. Maybe it can push 100-120 watts, when the grand kids try to play WOW on their grandparents' computer. Sometimes they want the $25 model even.
Shoot, for office workstations I use these Cooler Masters even. I haven't had a problem yet. Nowadays that means Core-i5, 8GB DDR3, and 60GB SSD. I built a server recently that only used 18watts at idle! It is just hard to find good PSU's at less then 400 watts. Reply
pvdw - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkHere's some good ones to look at in 350W-450W range:
Seasonic X-400 Fanless
Seasonic S12II-380
Silentmaxx Fanless 400W MX460-PFL01
Nexus Value 430
Seasonic M12II-430
And just above the 450W range, but unlikely to use any more power in most systems are these good ones:
Enermax Modu/Pro87+ 500W
Kingwin STR-500 Reply
pvdw - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkBTW, though I really enjoy most Anandtech articles, your PSU ones can't beat SilentPCReview. But then I can't see how you could do better without an anechoic chamber
Check out their list of recommended supplies:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Recommended_PSUs Reply
A5 - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkThe cheapest PSU on that list is well over $100, which is more than double the most expensive one in this article, which is about finding a good "cheap" PSU.
I'm glad AT did this article as it should encourage a little more competition in the low-end space. Reply
knutjb - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkIn my experience I've had a couple low end PSUs do bad things to MBs even though they were modestly loaded. After using a number of different manufacturers all I buy are Seasonics. I get them when they are on sale.
I have a 9 yr old 600 S-12? on its second system and the output measures the same as it did when new. Blow out the dust occasionally and it just works. Even in low end systems I don't trust inexpensive PSUs, their quality control is all but non-existent with wide variation in samples.
You get what you pay for and I don't like buying things twice. Reply
pvdw - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - linkA quick search turns up this link:
The Seasonic S12II 430 for $60 shipped. Or the 380W for $54 shipped. Reply
clarkn0va - Friday, July 06, 2012 - linkSeasonic SS-350ET
Supposedly not as quiet as their retail offerings, but always inexpensive. I would like to see how this one holds up against similar offerings.
Maybe AT needs a Bench section for PSUs? Reply
Belard - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkI've bought some CX models for bottom end PCs for clients...
But I picked up two 500w models, both were defective.
1) Defective power connector (at the motherboard)...
2) Flutter fan noises.
Returned them, bought Thermaltake TR2s. Reply
piroroadkill - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkWhen the Corsairs first hit the scene, the HX series were all Seasonic.
Corsair is a nice rebrander, but I go straight to Seasonic for my own system's PSU these days. I have a Seasonic X-660.. Reply
Arnulf - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkGreat article !
I wish you could round up even more models and/or present the results in a common bench-like database (you know, like the CPU comparison etc.) where different models coudl be added over time. Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, July 04, 2012 - linkEnermax NAXN ENP450AWT-B 450W - £60 at Scan:
(Unfortunately, out of stock)
Rasurbo RAP350 350W - £44 inc. delivery on eBay:
The 450W variant - £58 inc. delivery on eBay:
Corsair CX430 V2 430W - from £35 inc. delivery:
You can find FSP Hexa, Aurum and Fortron PSUs quite easily; the Aurum 80 PLUS Gold 500W is £62 inc. delivery. Reply
Phaedrus2129 - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - linkThat Sinan PSU is likely made by LongYi, a small and crappy PSU manufacturer in Guangdong, China. They make knock-off, cost-down designs based on reverse-engineered FSP and similar PSUs. Reply
Martin Kaffei - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - linkThanks for these information. I guess there are more brands who use this manufacturer so it wasn't useless to test a German product. Reply
hasseb64 - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - linkNot many need more than 400W anymore, some think it's better to buy more now to be sure about future upgrades, but that view is should be reversed, total watt consumtion in builds going down for every generatio. I hope to see Platinum/Gold PSU from 200-300W in the future.
300W Gold ATX Reply
bryanl - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - link"The Teapo models don't have the longest lifetime and lowest ESR; however, we've never detected a problem with Teapo in power supplies."
Official ratings mean little when they're not honest, and while I haven't looked at Teapos in recent power supplies, they had very high failure rates in older CWT supplies, including those sold as Antec Smartpowers and Truepowers. Reply
Martin Kaffei - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - linkTrue, but Teapo has several products, you can't compare old models with current offerings. And some ratings are wrong for sure, but most manufacturers in this roundup used the same series and some of this companies have less than 1% failure rate according to retail shops.
Not least you can't compare old PSUs with a modern 80Plus device. Temperatures are much lower today and switching frequency is different (which is why a low-ESR model would have been nice anyway). The ambient conditions are different. Teapo had problems on mainboards for the same reason. There are no bad or good components, just the right choice for a specific range of functions. Reply
bryanl - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - link"True, but Teapo has several products, you can't compare old models with current offerings. And some ratings are wrong for sure, but most manufacturers in this roundup used the same series and some of this companies have less than 1% failure rate according to retail shops.
Not least you can't compare old PSUs with a modern 80Plus device. Temperatures are much lower today and switching frequency is different (which is why a low-ESR model would have been nice anyway). The ambient conditions are different. Teapo had problems on mainboards for the same reason. There are no bad or good components, just the right choice for a specific range of functions. "
These were mostly Teapo SC (green w/ gold or bronze writing), as new as 2010, a product still being made. What model Teapos were you thinking of?
I believe these operated at frequencies of 60K-100K Hz and averaged temperatures of 50-65C. What are the operating conditions of the capacitors in the 80Plus power supplies?
Power supplies will often continue to operate adequately even years after capacitor failure since some capacitors are redundant, including with motherboard capacitors, and most computers draw little power. Reply
Martin Kaffei - Friday, July 06, 2012 - linkEven then it might be that Teapo changed some ingredients.
However, let's assume that this is not the case. Current PSUs switch much faster than 100 KHz in order to reduce component size. E.g. 250 KHz is a common value these days, some of them are even faster. This is just one out of many different conditions:
"averaged temperatures of 50-65C."
No matter where--it will be lower, but where did you measure these temperatures? On which outputs or circuits did they fail? Did they all fail? Is there more or less space for cooling than in most PSUs in this review? How high was the average ambient temperature during operation? Do these PSUs have the comparable ripple values? How high was current? How high was load?
This and even more is what we need to evaluate the position.
For sure PSUs can operate without some of the output capacitors, but not for ever and ever. There are signs. In many cases you can hear noises when capacitors fail (or measure something). Moreoever I've never seen faulty Teapo capacitors in old FSP units and I used plenty of them for years.
The source of such problems can be elsewhere. I had a PSU with an oscillating controller and all capacitors on 5VSB died. Does this mean the capacitors are the problem? No, after replacing a single resistor the controller was stable and the caps didn't fail again. Reply
bryanl - Friday, July 06, 2012 - link"RE: Capacitors in Rosewill power supply by Martin Kaffei on Friday, July 06, 2012 Even then it might be that Teapo changed some ingredients.
However, let's assume that this is not the case. Current PSUs switch much faster than 100 KHz in order to reduce component size. E.g. 250 KHz is a common value these days, some of them are even faster. This is just one out of many different conditions:
"averaged temperatures of 50-65C."
No matter where--it will be lower, but where did you measure these temperatures? On which outputs or circuits did they fail? Did they all fail? Is there more or less space for cooling than in most PSUs in this review? How high was the average ambient temperature during operation? Do these PSUs have the comparable ripple values? How high was current? How high was load?
This and even more is what we need to evaluate the position.
For sure PSUs can operate without some of the output capacitors, but not for ever and ever. There are signs. In many cases you can hear noises when capacitors fail (or measure something). Moreoever I've never seen faulty Teapo capacitors in old FSP units and I used plenty of them for years.
The source of such problems can be elsewhere. I had a PSU with an oscillating controller and all capacitors on 5VSB died. Does this mean the capacitors are the problem? No, after replacing a single resistor the controller was stable and the caps didn't fail again. "
250 KHz has long been common for motherboards, but which PSUs oscillate near that frequency? I wasn't able to find anything operating above approximately 150 KHz at websites that presented oscillographs (Jonnyguru.com, Hardwaresecrets.com) where the fundamental could be identified. Temperature readings were taken with direct contact thermistors or thermocouples touching the metal bodies of the output capacitors while the PSUs operated motherboards without high performance video cards.
In well designed power supplies, few components fail nearly as much as capacitors, and there's a fairly common +5VSB circuit made of 2 discrete transistors that overvolts when it fails, almost always due to a bad capacitor, often 1-2 10V, 1000uF Teapo SCs. Reply
Bambooz - Sunday, May 05, 2013 - linkForget about Teapo. C(r)apxon is the biggest epidemic right now. They're in basically every Fortron and Fortron based PSU (Bequiet anyone?)
If you have a PSU with Crapxon on the secondary side it's almost guaranteed it won't make it to it's 2nd birthday without the crapxons puking their guts out and in turn, sh*tloads of ripple (I've had client computers where shitty cheap FSP OEM PSUs killed HDDs due to their caps failing)
Instability, whining and sometimes (for example Bequiet E5 series and FSP Bluestorm I & II) power-up problems (because of bad caps on the 5VSB circuitry) are pretty much the norm with these..
No matter how good fortrons may sound.. avoid them at all costs unless you can recap them BEFORE putting them into service. Reply
Onus - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - linkI too am interested in lower-wattage units, so this article was a good read. I've been more impressed with FSP's recent offerings. The way the Raider's efficiency quickly ramped up was excellent. Maybe not down to the Picos, I am also interested in physically smaller units, like TFX and SFX models. Seasonic and FSP have some good ones there.
My "goto" PSU in budget builds for years has been the Antec EA-380D. I've never had one fail. I buy Seasonic or Antec for my own systems, although I'd consider FSP, Corsair, or Enermax also.
If you go through the assortment of reviews Gabrial Torres at HardwareSecrets has done on CM PSUs, you will understand why I call them "Crappermaster." The "Extreme ..." lines in particular are near-junk, most with liar-labels and/or claimed protection circuits actually missing. That's consumer fraud. One of my favorite comments though comes from a HardOCP review, in which the GX650 was summarized as a "polished turd in a box." Friends don't let friends buy Crappermaster (even their good stuff, because that is supporting a dishonest business). Reply
Scootiep7 - Thursday, July 05, 2012 - linkWhat, no Cooler Master GX 450W Bronze? I CALL SHENANIGANS SIRS! A recount must be done. Reply
nubie - Friday, July 06, 2012 - linkI still love my PC Power and Cooling Silencer 470, from before they were bought up by (forget right now).
Of course at over $100 it really needs to be worth it, but I have seen some on the 'Bay for $30 or so.
Too bad that PC Power didn't have a lower power supply in this test, I would have liked to see how they measure up. Reply
betam4x - Saturday, July 07, 2012 - linkI would even go so far as to say 1 KW power supplies aren't needed for most configurations. Running a Core i7 2600k, 16 GB RAM, 6 Hard Drives/SSDs (2x2TB WD Blacks, 2x1TB WD blacks, 1x1 TB Seagate, and 1xSSD 256 GB Force GT) as well as a radeon 6970. under load i pull 400 watts from a 650 watt PS. A bit more than the review mentions, but most people would swear they need a 1 KW ps for this setup. Reply
veri745 - Monday, July 09, 2012 - linkI, for one, would really appreciate some more comparison charts with all of the PSU's stacked up against eachother. You don't need every data point but a summary of at least idle and load, like maybe 50W and 400W, or 20% and 100%, would be much appreciated.
Something so I don't have to flip through 9 pages to compare ripple, efficiency, noise, and PFC Reply
Pappnaas - Tuesday, July 10, 2012 - linkAgain a review by Mr. Kaffei.
And again you didn't give any information about the size of your reviewed psu's.
In my view you did not do your homework. You omitted basic facts by not listing the physical dimensions of your reviewed objects. Anandtech tries to keep up a nearly scientific approach to their other reviews.
Would you omit the measures if reviewing a computer case? A smartphone? A NAS-Box? A car? A TV?
I brought this point up in several comments, alas to no avail.
I think you're shooting yourself in the knee.
Switch to german:
Wenn grundlegende Dinge wie Maße fehlen, wie vertrauenswürdig ist das ganze Werk? Wissenschaftliche Arbeit fängt bei der Beschreibung der Testobjekte an.
Wenn also die Grundlagen wissenschaftlicher Methodik verletzt werden, dann stelle ich fest, dass Anandtech die sich selbst auferlegte "professionelle Arbeitsweise" nicht einhält. Sicher ist das ein wenig Haarspalterei, werden einige sagen. Meine Einstellung: Macht es richtig oder gar nicht. Sonst droht Euer Niveau auf das der PC-Welt zurück zu fallen. Reply
Bambooz - Sunday, May 05, 2013 - linkDein Niveau (wenn man das noch so nennen kann) ist wohl schon auf unter PC-Welt gerutscht. So richtung Computerbild.. Reply
zoblace - Tuesday, November 24, 2015 - linkhttp://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/THERM...
....on that page they tested Thermaltake Smart 430 and it acheived 80+ Bronze eff. no problem....
after that could we trust online tests at all.... Reply