text:
Home Automation and the 'Internet of Things'by Ganesh T S on 10/4/2012 10:30 AM EST
- Posted in
- Gadgets
- Home Automation
- Wi-Fi
53 Comments
Back to Article
at80eighty - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkI have been poking around very recently to check out articles about this very topic, and wouldn't you know, you guys do something about it. thanks for the read.
is this something you could be exploring as a series of articles? maybe something every few months; would love to know more in depth info esp. DIY stuff. Reply
slickr - Saturday, October 06, 2012 - linkHow is this awesome? Its 1984 on steroids. If you don't think government isn't going to use this to spy on your 24/7 and turn you into a mindless slave then you don't know history.
Basically what you eat, what you drink, which appliances you use, how you dress, who you with, etc... will all be public for governments or hackers to get a hold of.
I think this is ridiculous, its bad, its negative, its Orwellian, its NAZI Germany like, its Brave new world like. Reply
Axedall - Sunday, October 07, 2012 - linkHow exactly do you think a government would use information like this? What are you eating that would anyone would be interested in? Babies? Are you dressing yourself in radioactive waste?
And what makes you think that this information isn't available to pretty much anyone who wants it anyway? Do you use a credit card? Do you have a bank account (other than off shore)? A membership card for any kind of store? Unless you are using cash for every transaction you make, they are all being recorded and tracked. Not likely by the government, but certainly by corporations who will use it to tailor marketing strategies.
I'm surprised you are even using the internet. You realize that every website you visit can be tracked as well as your location don't you? Quick, better crawl back under a rock before 'they' find you!
As an aside... great article and thanks for providing information on emerging technology like this. Maybe some coverage on security issues would be a good idea, however, as this seems to be a pretty big concern for a number people. Admittedly, if I can control electrical appliances in my house remotely from a smart phone, someone else potentially could too. Reply
rangerdavid - Sunday, October 28, 2012 - linkThe only way you can prevent this from happening is by using this tinfoil. Wrap it around your head.
Yes, just like that, but you missed the area covering your mouth.
There, better. :) Reply
Violated - Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - linkWow, I wish I would have read this last year! Slickr hit the nail on the head. I had Night Owl surveillance cameras outside my home and all new appliances and a new furnace, as well as a fully formally monitered security system. My ex while living here allowed access and set up basically a home I had no privacy, control or in reality ownership of. To make matters worse she was an especially vindictive woman and made me listen to unpeakable things via a RPC 2700/Ubuntu network she had secretly set up!!!
I'm just finally figuring it all out, thankfully I'm still alie and can prove all the crazy things she's done. Reply
DaveLessnau - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkAnd I'll bet that all these Home Automation vendors will put just a bunch of effort into hardening their products so that the fine people of our society won't hack our houses and turn our lives into living nightmares.
Heck, they don't even harden medical devices. For that matter, they don't harden cell phones (which have turned into the core of people's lives). Reply
DanNeely - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkIf wifi wins the standard war anyone who has half a clue should be able to use WPA and a strong password to secure their HA systems. Granted the half clue needed to do so is a relatively high bar; but the clueless will break any other protection system too. Reply
k2_8191 - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkAgreed.
I will never buy such network-enabled appliances.
I don't want to see my house flooded by hot water of a badly-designed spa :( Reply
ntspam - Friday, October 05, 2012 - linkYou can buy flood and freeze sensors that alert your phone. By the way you can pick and choose what you automate. Reply
aruisdante - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkEven if vendors do nothing, it's as secure as any home WiFi network is. All you have to do is enable WPA2 and its unlikely that anyone that would care is going to be able to get into your network. Reply
Conficio - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkWouldn't it be a smart idea that the devices only allow connections that are WPA secured?
Just to make a point that the manufacturer did actually consider network security. Reply
lyeoh - Friday, October 05, 2012 - linkWPA2/WPA PSK is crackable. And that's the best most WiFi networks support (they don't do WPA2 Enterprise - which requires username+password).
See: http://www.aircrack-ng.org/doku.php?id=cracking_wp...
The WiFi bunch have been producing crap security for years. They should have done something more like SSL/TLS.
The reason why nobody hacks into your WPA2 PSK network is because it's not really worth doing it. But once home networks start to have more "goodies" on them it'll become more common. Reply
Friendly0Fire - Friday, October 05, 2012 - linkhttp://xkcd.com/538/
Nobody will crack your WPA2 network because it'll still be easier to just smash the window. Reply
ntspam - Friday, October 05, 2012 - linkLike I heard somewhere anyone crook with sophistication can easily pick the lock on your front door. I think it takes more talent to hack into your home automation system. Reply
Azethoth - Friday, October 05, 2012 - link"For that matter, they don't harden cell phones"
This is wrong, even though someone wrote it on the internet.
Here is the single counter example I need:
That still does not mean phones are secure, but claiming that companies do not try is silly. Reply
philosofool - Monday, October 08, 2012 - linkSeriously, if I'm going to hack something, it's not going to be to turn up the heat in someone else's home. What a stupid waste of my time.
Why is it that you people who are obsesively worried about security don't realize that all security is a matter of raising costs for would-be hackers to the point where the benefits aren't worth it. Messing with someone's lawn watering schedule is a pretty low benefit activity, so security demands just aren't that high. Reply
DanNeely - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkI can't find much on this standard; is it safe to assume that "sub 1ghz" means the 900mhz band? With every other wireless device abandoning it in favor of 2.4ghz; putting something new at 900mhz to keep it used sounds like an all around win. Reply
ganeshts - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkYes, the plan is for 802.11ah to operate in the 900 MHz band Reply
drwho9437 - Friday, October 05, 2012 - linkThere is also an ISM band at ~415 MHz., but mostly people do 900 MHz and 2.4 GHz because of antennas and PCB losses. Reply
aruisdante - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkI think a product that has the potential to be a real disrupter in the HA space is the Electric Imp. It's a MCU and Wifi module in an SD card form-factor with 8 GPI/O and a cloud server infrastructure that can run rules-based programs (in addition to hard-coding the MCU). And it's cheap... a development board is only $30 at retail. I'm actually kind of surprised it wasn't mentioned in this article. Reply
southpaw42_i - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkElectric IMP looks to become big Home automation over next few years.
Product developer will be able to add HA WIFI features to their products without the needed support cost of a managing the connection and the service themselves or the FCC validation of each product..
http://electricimp.com/ Reply
ganeshts - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkLooks like a very interesting product. I will be sure to investigate. Reply
jamyryals - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkThanks for the article Ganesh, very interesting and I agree that this technology is starting to get more accessible. However, I must disagree with the statement that it's not possible to recommend products that do not have a documented API. Nest works great for me standalone. Why would the average customer need to connect it to anything else? My sprinkler system is automated as well. It won't turn on if it has rained. The automated door locks will open when I approach with my cell phones. I think the simplicity and predictability in how these devices operate is key for mass consumer adoption.
I am a developer so there's nothing technologically in this realm that has stopped me from automating my house in the past. It's practical matters; cost and me becoming on call support in my own house. Anytime the lights don't come on the way they are expected to I'll have to go troubleshoot my devices/scripts.
If we had our wish we would get both simplicity and ultimate control. That's just not the way the consumer behaves though. Consumers will avoid poorly designed products that tout open APIs as a major selling point. People want things that work and they can understand. Reply
ganeshts - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkI don't disagree with you on the point that Nest is a great device. If it were not, it wouldn't have achieved this much success.
Products such as Radio Thermostat CT-30 and those from Visible Energy barely make a mention of open APIs in their marketing material. So, it is not that they 'tout it as a major selling point'. My intention, as a tech journalist, is to point out where products can improve. In that respect, I am a cynical customer for most of these companies.
To take the computing analogue, many users are satisfied with the Apple ecosystem, but there are a number of users out there who stand by Android for its open nature. Some journalists recommend and stand by Apple's products, while others are on the Android side of things. Both of them have a place in the market. Similarly, devices such as Nest will be popular in the market for some time to come because 'they just work' and people are enamoured by the appearance and usability. Just as Android continues to grow, devices which open up for ultimate control will give consumers better choices (particularly for the tech audience that makes up a majority of AT's readers).
Publications like Engadget, Gizmodo, Verge, AllThingsD (WSJ) provide lots of attention to products like the Nest. As a tech journalist for AT, I consider it my job done if consumers are at least made aware of the other more flexible options available. Reply
bobbozzo - Friday, October 05, 2012 - link"Nest works great for me standalone. Why would the average customer need to connect it to anything else?"
I'd like to have my house open the windows and turn off the A/C when the temperature drops in the evening, and I'd prefer to do it with one application. I can program, but I'd rather have something available off-the-shelf. Reply
shalomo1 - Sunday, October 21, 2012 - linkI am currently working on a project about home automation, I would like to meet and share ideas with you. this is my mail firstname.lastname@example.com. Thanks Reply
CSMR - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkGood to have an article on this.
Unfortunate that if there's a conclusion, it's that WiFi will become a suitable technology in 2015 with 802.11ah.
Very little is even known about 802.11ah. It's too early to say what it is, let alone whether it will take over low power networking.
I agree that: in the future, a low power wireless networking standard suitable for home automation will be standardized by IEEE and be called 802.11something.
Maybe there will be so many connected low-power devices that the new standard will be integrated into many wireless access points and routers.
What is unfortunate is that it will take years for this to happen. Reply
ganeshts - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkHmm.. low power Wi-Fi is only needed in a subset of HA devices. As I pointed out in the piece, there are already plenty of Wi-Fi based HA products and silicon vendors are providing low power platforms even with current Wi-Fi technology. Reply
noblemo - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkBluetooth 4.0 Low Energy (BLE) is another protocol worth mentioning. It is a low-bandwidth, low-power technology that enables users to communicate directly to a device using a smartphone or tablet without the need for a separate controller or network connection. A self-contained sensor pod including a BLE module and battery can fit within a package about the size of a stack of six or seven 25-cent coins.
In a pre-802.11ah world, Wi-Fi is better suited to high bandwidth or web-enabled devices with external power. In practice, I expect to see hybrid solutions using Wi-Fi and a second technology for remote, low power devices. Reply
Chapbass - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkHey, just wanted to take a moment to recognize Ganesh for his work. I know a lot of people are on the mobile device bandwagon and all of that, but I consistently find Ganesh's work to be unique, informative, and incredibly refreshing to this site.
Keep it up, love reading it! Reply
brotj - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkThe market is fairly confusing for a non techie customer, We were about to buy 3 Z-Wave locks from Lowes for our home a few weeks back. But then I noticed the lock keypads are not really weatherproof(very important in the northeast), and there is a $12.99/month fee to access your locks online. What a load...
$299.99 for the door kit and base station
$129.99/additional door handle
$12.99/mo for as long as you want access remotely to your home....
We want:
-3 outdoor weather resistant locks(only one will be under an overhang)
-outdoor lights defaulted to motion detection, over ridden by secure mobile app or door locks
-indoor lights that can be grouped by zones
-cameras defaulted to motion detection, turned on anytime the doors are open, and overridden by secure mobile app
-All information stored on my own server, and accessible from mobile app.
The wifes primary concern: wants to turn off everything and make sure the doors are locked from her Android tablet from bed when I'm out of town.
...any suggestions
andrewaggb - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkCould get a micasaverde (vera)
Personally I don't find their ui very intuitive, but it supports a lot of devices and there are mobile apps with no monthly fee.
I have one I've used for testing a few things but to be honest I don't even have it hooked up right now.
I have an alarm panel module (ip datatel - bat) that lets you control your alarm system from an android or ios app and it works pretty well - my wife can use it. I believe it does have a low monthly fee (I have one for testing/work so I'm not paying personally), but it's nice enough.
One of the things I do is write video surveillance software and so I dabble in home automation and alarm/sensor monitoring. I find many cheap ip cameras try to tie you into their software and online systems etc, but then fail to provide a complete solution (like what you are looking for). A full featured system like you are asking about... Is still hard to come by. Maybe somebody else knows one, but my own software, and any other software I have used (quite a few), don't provide everything you're looking for out of the box. But I don't work in the residential market so there may be a gem out there I just don't know about. Reply
jhh - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkUnfortunately, my smart meter was installed this year, and only supports Zigbee Smart Energy profile. Perhaps someone will build a converter to make it available via WiFi, but otherwise, it's locked into a very restricted license for access, such that it is quite expensive for a hacker to use. One has to get a key from a RIM subsidiary, and the first license is quite expensive. The license is likely restricted to devices which have passed Smart Energy profile certification, and I have no idea how much that will cost. So, if someone wants to build a WiFi to Zigbee converter box, I'd be happy to buy one. Reply
Conficio - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkI do not care to much about home automation. However, I have noticed myself to stand in front of my house pushing the car remote and wondering why the door does not unlock ;-)
So I think the much more desired use is integration of technology by open standard. For most younger people the cell phone is the key to their life. So why not have the ability to use it as door opener, access badge at work, gym locker key, ATM card, car key (with seat memory and other setting preferences), ...
The key to all this is the ability to register securely the user's device or the operational unit with the user's device. How does current home automation do this?
Also, where is open source on this? I really can't see myself using a third party web service to access my house remotely? Next thing police forces them to open the door? So I want an open source based control server on my own hardware.
Also one of the objects that many geeks want to remote control is their computer(s). What is the state of Wake on LAN to achieve this? Most of what I have seen is standard routers not having the feature. Reply
jhh - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkI have a zoned heating system with 3 zones. I probably could have gotten away with 2, but the third came with only the cost of an extra thermostat. Unfortunately, the zoning system provides no input to the HVAC system other than the 2 stage furnace or 2 stage air conditioner. Ideally, this would all feed back into the control board in the furnace, with information on how many zones need heat/cooling, the size of the zones, whether they are in the sun or not, and the outside temperature. This would allow better control over whether the second stage of the heat/AC is useful, and how fast the fan should run based on the number of open zones. A heating cycle could be extended if one zone was close to needing heat rather than more frequent furnace cycling which is hard on the heat exchanger. The set-points for each thermostat could be maintained in the control board, and controllable through a smart phone app or locally. But, the thermostat could really be reduced to just a temperature sensor with no user feedback. The NEST thermostat is an overly expensive device primarily because its combining a user interface, processor, controls, and temperature sensor. I would rather have the intelligence in the furnace control board (or blower control from outside the control board and intelligence in the HA system). Reply
Rick83 - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkEssentially, for HA to really work, there's a higher level protocol that's going to be required. And this has to be standardized.
There's currently a big push for this kind of thing, with many patents and standards being published, and I wouldn't recommend to anyone to invest heavily before this has somewhat settled down.
Zigbee still seems to be THE M2M-technology according to what I see at work (M2M research lab at a large European telco), as it is much cheaper to implement than the heavier protocols.
Future 802.11 might change this, but at this time, I'd put the focus there.
Finally, until there are better presence /identification /activity sensors and the required logic to learn usage patterns, it will remain remote control. This is convenient, but it doesn't go far enough for me to truly adopt it. Never mind spending big money on it.
For now it is still mostly faffing about with electronics, and in that case I would stick to rolling your own, in the most modular way possible, so that if eventually a consensus standard emerges, the USB of HA, you can swap out your interfaces, without touching the hardware. Reply
JoanSpark - Saturday, October 06, 2012 - link+1
The market still is too cluttered to propose 'the standard' that will be the USB of HA, especially as most of the ones currently being offered are proprietary and heavily protected by licenses.
I'd also like to point out that there is more going on/needs to be looked at for all those gadgets and helpers to be more efficient (resource usage).
These days every little thing comes with it's own acdc converter if it needs non-neglible power for displays or actors, this means all over the place there are powerplugs with their inefficiencies and clutter. There is (afaik) no venture to standardize the powersupply of things in the 0.5W - 30W range.
Ideal would be some kind of low voltage dc distribution network for each house/apartment that is standardized similar to 230VAC power distribution.
But there is NOTHING going on there - and most importantly the sockets/plugs for this. NOTHING (besides some 600V DC plugs for server environments - google: 'datacenter VDC').
And to tell you the truth, once you got this distribution network, it's easy to just pull some more wires along for some protocol/interface, which would even eliminate the need for wireless most of the time.
That would be the USB of HA ;-) Reply
JoanSpark - Saturday, October 06, 2012 - linkcorrection: http://www.google.com/search?q=datacenter%20380vdc... ..for the datacenter DC power distribution stuff Reply
JoanSpark - Saturday, October 06, 2012 - linkaddendum:
http://blog.circuitprotection.com/blognews/low-vol... Reply
alek99 - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkI have a rather nifty (nutty?!?) application of Home Automation that allows people on the Internet to control my Holiday displays at Halloween and Christmas - http://www.komar.org/cgi-bin/halloween_webcam and http://www.komar.org/cgi-bin/christmas_webcam
These have been around for a while, so using X10 ... and oldie but goldie. Lotta various control & sensor stuff" out there (and cheap) ... but yea, is a bit slow and has some reliability issues ... although many of those can be addressed via some really cool devices from this guy - http://jvde.us/
I'd love to go to a higher tech (and agree that it will converge on Wi-Fi) but am waiting for the marketplace to mature and stuff to get cheaper.
Great overview of HA Ganesh! Reply
AshuJoshi - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkHi Ganesh,
Very extensive article and well covered. A few thoughts, and I think you or your readers have already touched upon this:
1. Bluetooth LE / 4.0 - is pretty important as well. One because many medical devices have adopted BT, and not Zigbee or ZWave or WiFi.
2. ZWave is very popular BUT my concern is that it is controlled by one company.
3. SEP 2.0 is going to be a very important move forward especially because it will work with WiFi, HPAV, and Zigbee.
4. Kickstarter - I noticed that you picked some projects. I think there are three segments to Home Automation - DIY, Luxury and NOW Managed (as provided by the likes of Comcast). Luxury traditionally belonged to the likes of Creston but Control4 is playing a major disruptor now. For the DIY segment - Kickstarter has changed the world. Here is my post on the # of projects on Kickstarter for HA - http://bit.ly/Q02Mk2
5. Service Providers are getting very active in this space - Comcast, Rogers, AT&T, DT etc. Reply
AshuJoshi - Thursday, October 04, 2012 - linkWiFi appears to be a popular choice for powered appliances and as the article talks about Semiconductor providers such as Marvell are providing compelling solutions. The challenge is that every implementation especially if it is from a different semi partner - its implementation in SW is different. That is there is no standard or specification to discover devices on WiFi - each implementation could be different. I am contrasting this with Zigbee because Zigbee has a well-defined protocol on how devices are discovered and controlled by category (Zigbee has its own terminology for all of this). Reply
davegravy - Friday, October 05, 2012 - linkLots of talk about hardware, and a bit of discussion about controllers and host software, but there isn't a lot of software out there that's provides a bridge between all the different protocols and the central brain/logic essential to the smart home.
I've been using LinuxMCE (free, open-source) and have been following their development for the past while. Not yet for the technically faint of heart, but there ARE device templates for a large number of different protocols (Z-wave, Insteon, KNX, RS232, IR, X10, various ethernet devices, etc) allowing you to control pretty much any type of HA device. It also controls media and VOIP telecom in your house. The end result is a fully integrated solution between all devices in your home.
Example: Someone rings the door bell. Your porch light turns on (if it is after sundown), your IP cam turns on, its video feed is forwarded to your mobile phone, and (if it knows you are home because your security system is not armed, or by other logic) to the various TVs around your house after powering them on. The video is also recorded to your server. If you were watching TV during this event, it pauses your feed and to show you the front door IP cam.
The possibilities are truly endless with this software, and I have to give it a plug here. Reply
ntspam - Friday, October 05, 2012 - linkI was really hoping that google putting its software creating talent behind home automation was finally going to kick this market mainstream. What a disappointment. Reply
jed22281 - Sunday, October 07, 2012 - linkThese guys have been ahead of the curve in this area for 4yrs+ now:
Truly open, ubiquitous, Home Automation solutions, shame they didn't get a mention. Reply
taltamir - Sunday, October 07, 2012 - linkWiFi controlled lights, thermostat, and power... now your home can be hacked in ways that holliwood only dreamed of. Reply
geraldt - Friday, October 12, 2012 - linkNice article on one of my obsessions. I so want WiFi to be the household communications protocol (actually TcpIp with any mix of wireless, wired CAT5, powerline Ethernet etc. that may be appropriate depending on the devices and controllers).
I want a ubiquitous open standard that is well understood. I want two-way comm. I want sufficient bandwidth for video. I want security. I want all my current and future smart devices (desktop, tablet, smart phone, Raspberry Pi, robots, etc.) to be able to participate. I want that common infrastructure so I can incrementally add devices from various manufacturers. I also want the option of writing my own code in smart controllers e.g. PC.
One point the article kind of makes is that common comm protocol is not enough, you need a higher level API for each device that is well documented.
p.s. I think the technology in the new Kindle Paperwhite (touch, front lit, very low power, wifi) could be packaged into a great HA and AV remote. No video is a drawback for some applications like answering the door but still pictures at 1 fps might be fine. Reply
xSaintSinnerx - Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - linkMaybe I'm mistaken but few years ago Microsoft was talking about getting involved in HA business. I believe Gates was talking about it too. MS could easily create standard for HA Wi-Fi and become leader on the market with hardware and software in Windows RT or 8 environment.
can you imagine possibilities ... BSoD on your thermostat. Reply
Nomzam - Thursday, November 08, 2012 - linkYeah the idea and performance are best but there is a security risk of internet.
<a href="http://www.squidoo.com/iport-launchport-inductive-... Automation</a> Reply
space31 - Wednesday, August 07, 2013 - linkSome new web remonte power hère : http://www.wifipower.fr Reply
phil31 - Thursday, January 16, 2014 - linkHi,
what if you don't have iOS device ?
the WIFIPOWER products are OS independant - NO specific software to control electrical circuits over WIFI.
you can find these products on http://www.wifipower.fr
regards Reply
phil31 - Thursday, January 16, 2014 - linkHi,
here it is some new WIFI remote power switch.
Embedded Web server : OS independant - NO specific software to control electrical circuits over WIFI.
you can find these products on http://www.wifipower.fr
regards Reply
phil31 - Monday, November 17, 2014 - linkNetRC1 is dead ! .. another reason not to use products that require cloud !
WIFIPOWER ( www.wifipower.fr ) are WIFI remote control, with embedded web server. No cloud and NO specific application to manage your electrical circuits ! you can use any web browser.
regards Reply


text:
AMD Socket-AM2: Same Performance, Faster Memory, Lower Powerby Anand Lal Shimpi on 5/23/2006 12:14 PM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
82 Comments
Back to Article
Slappi - Thursday, May 25, 2006 - linkThat is the real question.
Very biased these last few months.
I sure hope Conroe can cook dinner and clean my house because if it can't someone has some explaining to do. Reply
lewisc - Thursday, May 25, 2006 - linkHow was that review at all biased? AM2 showed very very small improvements over socket 939, Anand said so. Is it biased because the result was not what you wanted? How you could possibly suggest buying a a new platform that has hardly any improvement over a predecessor is beyond me. Reply
Slappi - Thursday, May 25, 2006 - linkJust all his talk about Intel the last few months has been really biased. Not necessarily this article.
Just my opinion and I really like this site it just seems like someone is being taken care of.
I could be wrong. Reply
clnee55 - Friday, May 26, 2006 - linkI agree in the last few months, AMD has shown that it doesn't have anything ready to compete with Conroe. I certainly can trust Anand's analysis. Your conspiracy theory is full of it.
By the way, just how much AMD stock do you own?
EdisonStarfire - Thursday, May 25, 2006 - linkI've owned AMD systems since 1998 starting with an Athlon 600 OEM. I've built several other AMD systems since then. Sure, there is a slight chance Intel had some influence on their test systems anand tested but from seeing other pre-release samples around the web I think its just a case of Intel finally waking up and building a good cpu. I hope AMD has a good answer but if they don't and fooled themselves into thinking Intel didn't have the resources or need to build something (like alot of fanboys do) then they were kidding themselves badly. If the Core 2 Duo chips are the best out when its time to dump my X2 4400 then thats what I will be buying. I know AMD is limited in resources but the Dothan should have been a sign of what was coming and made some revisions with the AM2 release. Let's hope the deerhound cores improvements add about 20% IPC so can keep some good competition going between the two companies.
in short... I don't think Anand is being biased about anything. Just my 2 cents. Reply
Thatguy97 - Friday, May 01, 2015 - linkwell it sure did and amds dying Reply
Thatguy97 - Tuesday, December 27, 2016 - linkAyyyyy things looking up Reply
peternelson - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - link
I am interested in the changes from 939 to AM2/940 and opteron/940 and SocketF/1207
I would like detailed PINOUTS for these.
eg how many pins are GND, how many power / core power, how many ddr, how many ddr2, how many hypertransport links.
Ideally full pinout not just summary by group function.
Is this information available anywhere or would I have to/my company have to sign an NDA with AMD to obtain it? Reply
ultraCODE - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkHave anyone managed to benchmark new AM2 platform with RightMark RMMA? It shows the real peak speed (I don't trust crappy Sandra) for mem. read/write. Any results highly appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Best wishes,
uC Reply
jmke - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkhere ya go
Dual-Channel DDR2-800 on AMD Athlon 64 X2 "AM2" — the First Test Results of the New Integrated Memory Controller in RightMark Memory Analyzer
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/mainboard/ddr2...">http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/mainboard/ddr2... Reply
Xenoid - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkOk so AM2 is AMD's offering for 2/4 06.
The article title mentions same performance, faster memory, lower power. Wouldn't faster memory (in this case, ddr2) net a higher performance than what we're seeing here? Why is AMD bothering with DDR2 if it's not a significant improvement? If the power usage is so low, does this mean we can overclock a lot easier? I never understood the huge deal behind power usage on a cpu. Reply
coldpower27 - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkDDR production is slowing down, and DDR2 is continuing to mature, AMD does need to change to this memory type now, regardless if they like it or not.
DDR2 also allows higher capacities, so you can probably reach 4x2Gb now as 2Gb modles are actually available on DDR2.
Considering DDR2 biggest advanatge bandwidth, is what AMD doesn't really need more fo right now, performance improvements will be negligible. Reply
Furen - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkAlso, having all that extra bandwidth available allows AMD to throw quad-core on the same socket without much problem (maybe 1H07... whatever everyone says I doubt AMD will let Intel have the quad-core advantage for a year, I'd say we'll see very low volume quad-cores as close to Intel's Kentsfield/Cloverton as humanly possible). I know we've heard that AM3 is coming next year (from, who else?, The Inquirer) but considering that the DDR3 spec is not finalized quite yet and just how slowly AMD jumped into the DDR2 bandwagon I'd say we won't see it until 2008 at the earliest. Reply
Axloth - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkI think there is also marketing side. There are lots of people "unaware" of ddr1-ddr2 comparison. And they probably think that ddr2 "must" be better than ddr1 because of that that "2". Like: ddr2 is upgrade or next generation of ddr1 so its gotta be much faster. Also, they might go for intel because intel uses ddr2 and amd only ddr1... And they think intel's better thanks to ddr2, disregarding cpu qualities of both amd and intel. Reply
pzkfwg - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkIf DDR2-800 barely beats DDR-400, I was wondering if the AM2 socket could actually be slower than 939 DDR-400 when using DDR2-667 !?! Knowing that a very large amount of people would buy cheaper AM2 system with DDR2-667, that would be ridiculous! Reply
mino - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkYES and NO.
Remember most people buy generic CL3 or CL2.5 DDR400. IMHO generic DDR2-666 should be ona par with that. Reply
soydios - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkSo, the X2 4200+ will not run the memory at full speed. How safe would it be to overclock from 200x11=2200MHz DDR2-733 (2200/6=366x2=733) to 219x11=2200MHz DDR2-803 (2409/6=401.5x2=803) using OCZ DDR2-800 RAM and an Asus Xpress3200 motherboard? Reply
Furen - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkI'd say that you can very likely get away with that overclock with pretty much every 4200+ as long as the motherboard allows you to do it. Reply
mino - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkSafe as safe. At least from the point it won't blow up :)
As for stability it all depends on the motherboard. Reply
peternelson - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
I see no benchmarking in 64 bit mode.
This is the future, and for maths, Intel's 64 bit was more of a lame copy of AMD 64 bit performance.
In future this will be increasingly important so even if 32 bit performances are comparable, I'd want to make sure the picture is the same running 64 bit apps.
Also you summarise "same performance, faster memory, less power". True, but you FORGET one of the main benefits: Pacifica Virtualisation.
True hardware virtualisation adds to the actual WORK you can keep that processor busy with. It saves time by letting you switch OS instances without rebooting timewasting.
As it is hardware based VT you should even be able to virtualise an UNMODIFIED OS like Win XP, maybe even Vista!
So please play with Xen3.
As you say virtualisation "works" then it is a BIG factor for me in choosing AM2 over 939, (all other things being equal).
Also the fastest 939 chips have been produced, and AM2 is reaching higher models now.
So if you want the VERY fastest, it is only available on AM2.
Don't forget: Not just performance, but performance PER WATT. For these AM2 chips that is similar to 939.
However, the announcement of 65W EE and EVEN 35W SFF EE!!! are significant compared to the standard 89W
Intel seem to be positioning Conroe as being "33% better" on performance per watt. However, Conroe isn't even here but when it is, it may not be able to compete with AMD low power offerings.
Also consider the whole system for conroe vs AMD. Because that AMD power INCLUDES the memory controller, whereas Intel doesn't. The whole motherboard etc may use less power.
Also in terms of entire system cost, motherboards for AM2 appear to be a bit cheaper than their Intel equivalents, which may offset the current high prices of AMD processors. Reply
fitten - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkYou should check out the Woodcrest (server targeted Conroe core) previews for power measurements. Performance per Watt, Woodcrest wins (and will be available in 3 weeks)... Absolute power usage under load, Woodcrest wins... and note that the power measurements are for the complete system (video card and HDDs included). (Deep power conservation couldn't be tested on Woodcrest because the parts didn't have it enabled as they were engineering samples.)
Also, check out the 64bit vs. 32bit comparisons in programs like Cinebench 9.5. Seems Woodcrest 64bit gives a nice boost there (showing that it isn't just a 'lame copy').
You also seem to forget that Intel already has virtualization extensions out in currently shipping processors (much less Conroe+).
As far as price, there have been price lists published already. High end Conroe parts are already listed for 1/2 the price of the high end AMD parts... at $500 that gives another $500 for purchase of a motherboard before it touches just the CPU cost of the AMD... I doubt that the motherboards will be that expensive.
I have 7 AMD machines (four are Athlon64s or X2s) but right now, it looks like my next machine will be a Core2 one. AMD needs to get an answer out... soon. K8L isn't going to cut it. Sure, it'll be good at FPU but the vast majority of work done by CPUs is integer, which are what the majority of improvements are in Core2 (not that they don't have good FPU improvements). So, if you're in a government lab running FPU intensive simulations, K8L may be for you. If you're anyone else, K8L as it has been described looks kind of anemic and not a match for Core2.
Maybe the real K8L will surprise us, who knows, but it is at least 6 months away (if not longer). By that time, Intel will already be 25% into it's 2-year cycle for the next Core derivative chip (probably farther, time between releases is set to 2-years). AMD looks to be in a bad situation right now... If they have something they're keeping secret, IMO, they need to at least tease us with it. K8L is not a tease, it's only slightly more than a stifled yawn. The longer they go without giving us something to look forward to, the more it looks like they are in major trouble. Reply
Accord99 - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - link[quote]Don't forget: Not just performance, but performance PER WATT. For these AM2 chips that is similar to 939.
However, the announcement of 65W EE and EVEN 35W SFF EE!!! are significant compared to the standard 89W
Intel seem to be positioning Conroe as being "33% better" on performance per watt. However, Conroe isn't even here but when it is, it may not be able to compete with AMD low power offerings. [/quote]
Given that Woodcrest 3.0GHz has a TDP of 65W, which is borne out by power measurements conducted by Techreport and 2CPU, it's likely that a Conroe that matches the performance of the 35W X2 will at the very least, also match it in power. Reply
soydios - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkAMD motherboards are less expensive because they don't have to put in a memory controller.
AMD processors are more expensive for 2 reasons:
- integrated memory controller takes up more die space (offset by cheaper motherboard)
- AMD is still using 90nm on 200mm wafers, while Intel is using 65nm on 300mm wafers (Intel gets more CPUs per wafer bigtime) Reply
peternelson - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
Sempron AM2 can do memory up to DDR2-667
Dualcore AM2 can do memory up to DDR2-800
However, PLEASE CHECK SINGLE CORE MEMORY SPEED (multiplier issues aside) which you say limited to 667 whereas I got the impression they can also do 800 like dualcores. Correct as necessary. Reply
smitty3268 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkI accidentally hit the "not worth reading" button, so I'm writing this comment to undo it :) Reply
fikimiki - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkThere are a couple of reasons for that:
- K8L photo had a Z-RAM implemented, so they are using this kind of cache for a quite long time.
- Shared L3 should help Athlon64 in matching Super-Pi and overall performance.
- Usage of Z-RAM will reduce cache die size by 75% with no architectural changes.
So FX-64 to beat fastest Core 2 just needs 4MB of cache...
Easy trick but can be useful to survive till 65nm production... Reply
Questar - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
K8L photo had a Z-RAM implemented, so they are using this kind of cache for a quite long time.
It's not going to be Z-RAM. Z-RAM won't even be in K8L.
"We've looked at data from Innovative Silicon and it looks very promising. We still need to assure ourselves that this will work in our own application. We need to see how it scales and we need to make our own test vehicles,"
Jones, an executive experienced in intellectual property licensing, also declined to comment on AMD's timetable for introduction of Z-RAM but offered a more general perspective. "In the past it has been two years from when you sign a deal to when it is in production."
munky - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkI think the June trick AMD will pull out is the Clearspeed coprocessor. It definitely won't affect many users, but for those who do invest in the technology, it could provide a decent boost in number crunching power. Reply
peternelson - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
Clearspeed are working on being one acceleration solution, yes, but the already launched acceleration on socket 940 is companies offering plug in Xilinx4 FPGA on hypertransport.
I hope that gets re-engineered onto socket F pretty quickly. We may see announcements once socket F is actually launched in July. Reply
darkdemyze - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkz-ram isn't due for AMD procs for quite some time, I doubt this is their plan for June.. Reply
mlittl3 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkBasically this is what I said above for my guess of the "trick" AMD will use. Anand said it will only affect some high-end users, read FX series so it can't be price cuts as some have suggested (that would effect everyone). Adding L3 cache is the only performance improvement I can think of that doesn't require changing the microarchitecture of the cores (well at least not a big change).
However, TDP is still an issue here as someone above suggested. I don't know how much more power it takes to run L3 cache. Last time AMD did it was on K6 and power wasn't really measured back then.
By the way, please ignore Questar's comment below about z-ram being pig slow. I really don't think he knows what he is talking about. /shields eyes from incoming Questar flame Reply
johnsonx - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkK6-III did not have L3 cache. It had L2 cache, making the cache that all socket-7 boards had then an L3 cache.
So, let's stop saying things like 'AMD hasn't done L3 cache since K6-III', etc.
mino - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkWell, IMHO the point is AMD has used exclusive 3-level cache structure in the past so they have som experience with thi arrangement. Reply
Questar - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkNo flame here, look it up for yourself.
Z-RAM has high capacitive loading, which results in slow speed.
At 4MB it'll run half the speed of SRAM. Reply
Questar - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkLarge amounts of Z-RAM are pig slow. Reply
Ecmaster76 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkSeriously, the one area an Athlon X2 would be bandwidth starved and does it get tested in the preview? NO
In the review? NO
How long ago did we know that the K8 was not bandwidth limited in single application usage? YEARS
So yeah, DDR2 din't increase the 3dMark, big surprise
mlittl3 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkI think 3dMark06 is multithreaded now so all available cores and bandwidth should be used within the limits of the program. I could be wrong about this however. Reply
Ecmaster76 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link3Dmark06 is almost completely GPU limited. The 3Dmark CPU score did increase a bit, but I really was referring to graphics benchmarks in general. Reply
cscpianoman - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkI was just noticing the performance differences between the FX and the EE. In some cases the FX tromps the EE by "gasp" 30%! In other cases the EE makes it's mark. This is part of the reason I am skeptic on Conroe. Yeah it's good. But I always take what Intel, or AMD for that matter, with a grain of salt. Just today we saw the 30% advantage translate down to about 15%. This seems just like any other generation change where 15% is to be expected. The current hype for the Conroe is a product of Intel's excellent marketing dept. Reply
mlittl3 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkUntil K8L (which will have microarchitectural improvements), there are a few things that could allow AMD to look good against Core 2.
1) Price drops so that comparable K8 and Core 2 processors are the same price giving the same performance/$ ratio (this metric is important for the budget constrained)
2) Nov. '06 release of 65 nm AM2 processors so that K8 and Core 2 processors will have the same performance/watt ratio (65 nm could give K8 a 20% drop in power and with Core 2 being 20% faster, they will have the same performance/watt ratio which is popular now). Also, everytime AMD transitions to a new die process they add some minor bug fixes and minor memory/microarchitectural enhancements which could also boost performance by a few percent.
3) Continual improvements to DDR2 latency might yield a 2-2-2 DDR2 800 memory module which will probably benefit K8 more (maybe ~5% improvement) than Core 2 but this is a wild guess here and I don't know if it is even possible. However, DDR400 latency started around 4-4-4 and dropped to 2-2-2 so it could happen.
With the same performance/price and performance/watt as Core 2, K8 could stay competitive and OEMS and users decide on which company (if not both) they would like to do business with. This is all speculation and of course everyone is more than welcome to rip my reasoning to death. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkI seriously doubt we will ever see DDR2-800 running at 2-2-2 timings. (Feel free to quote me on this in the future and make fun of me if I'm proven wrong. :-)) Just think how long we had DDR memory around, and no one ever managed to create 1-1-1 DDR-400 memory. I do think we will see 3-3-3 DDR2-800, and possibly even higher bandwidth with those timings. In fact, we almost have that already judging from my experiences so far with socket AM2. (I can post and run benchmarks, but I wouldn't call the system 100% stable.) Reply
mlittl3 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkLOL! I will! Reply
MacGuffin - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkFrom Patriot's PDC22G8000+XBLK Rev. 2 review on PCSTATS.
Rated for DDR2-667 @ 3-3-3-9 (Maintains those timings through DDR2-940!)
Rated for DDR2-1000 @ 4-4-4-12 (Goes Up to DDR2-1020!)
Completely stable on the Intel platform they used. It's extremely expensive (saw it for $400+ at NewEgg). But yes, it is possible to run 2GB at these timings already. Its just extremely expensive. Reply
EdisonStarfire - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkany opinions on AMD offering a Clearspeed solution as stop-gap in the high end desktop arena ? Reply
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkThe bottom line is, we now know what we knew last fall, or rather (rightfully) assumed.
AMD does have one last trick up its sleeve before the end of the year, and you will hear about it in June. It's not K8L and it's not going to affect the majority of people, but it is an interesting stop gap solution for the high end in 2006...
Now you made me curious. Could that be the "noise in june" which Henri Richards mentioned in a Register interview earlier this month?
smn198 - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkIt is called quad-core. Reply
temp2 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
The extremetech.com article has a similar teaser at the end, but it is slightly more specific:
"And given recent discussions with AMD, we can safely say that the company hasn't launched its last FX series CPU for the year quite yet." Reply
mino - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkThis provided, 3.2 or even 3.4 FX's on 65nm are on the way... Reply
Scrogneugneu - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkBeware the mighty Sempron FX 32 ! Reply
mino - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link2 options:
1) Quad-core K8 (on 65nm)
2) High-speed 65nm DC's(improbable)
BTW what I understand FX-64 is on the way in a few months(july-august). Seems rev. F cores could handle 3.0, just 125W TDP may be the issue. Reply
peternelson - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
Well, I don't think it's a QUAD CORE K8 (aka "Deerhound") because that is not due until late 2007.
And dualcore K8L is not until 1H/2007.
We need to choose something happening THIS year. Reply
mino - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkActually AMD can made Quad-core CPU's even on 90nm if they need to. The core will be huge, yields poor but IMHO 2.2G Quad at 90nm is possible within 125W TDP.
Also AFAIK AMD has delayed 65nm at least for a quarter intentionally since what they need now is capacity on 90nm. They could not afford any (even short-term) production reduction at this moment. Provided in 3Q/06 FAB 36 is up and running at 10k starts the could afford to dedicate some of them for some high-end opterons and FX's. Reply
Furen - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkhttp://img.clubic.com/photo/00119525.jpg">http://img.clubic.com/photo/00119525.jpg
Look at that and tell me how you can possibly fit twice that (90nm dual-core) in one package. Dual-core CPUs are huge to begin with, doubling the number of cores would probably require a pretty big drop in L2 sizes (think 256KB per core...). AMD still is production limited and designing a quad-core chip without going to 65nm would pretty much doom it to being a VERY low-volume part. Heck, Intel's Conroe is huge as well, it's just on a smaller process (the 160sq. mm die size would correspond to something like 300+sq. mm on the 90nm process). Reply
jones377 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkIt's called Socket F Reply
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkI dont think so. Socket F isnt really a "secret" nor a stopgap solution. Reply
peternelson - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkI think we hear more about socket F in June and it launches July.
But that's not what this is alluding to.
There was an announcement of a roadmap change from Q1/2007 to DECEMBER 2006.
If I remember right it was two AM2 processors on 65 nanometre process. Reply
jones377 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkPerhaps not, but it's coming out at around that timeframe. Anything else and we would have gotten wind of it long ago. Reply
mlittl3 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkA couple of things before I give my guess about the stopgap solution...
1) K8L as state above WILL HAVE microarchitectural improvements. This has been all over the internet.
2) AMD's processor pricing page states that the X2 5000+ and FX-62 will be available for both 939 and AM2. I don't know if they messed up but if not, it looks like 939 users can upgrade yet again.
Okay, here's my guess for the stopgap solution...drum roll...L3 cache. I think AMD will release a 2.8 revised FX-62 with L3 cache or an ahead of schedule 3.0 GHz FX-64 with L3 cache. Just my guess. Reply
AllYourBaseAreBelong2Us - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkThe stopgap solution is the 65nm process that will allow AMD to ramp up the speed a bit more and get better TDP ratings.
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
Okay, here's my guess for the stopgap solution...drum roll...L3 cache. I think AMD will release a 2.8 revised FX-62 with L3 cache or an ahead of schedule 3.0 GHz FX-64 with L3 cache. Just my guess.
Sounds conceiveable indeed. Though, the latter option would probably blow TDP out of proportion on 90nm. Reply
mlittl3 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkYeah, that is a problem but Anand did say "trick up its sleeve" so maybe they have one last 90 nm manufacturing process that's better than today's. I've read some articles about L3 cache coming for AMD and one inquirer.net article (take with grain of salt) that says AMD will ramp clock speeds fast. Maybe the trick will have something to do with these factors. Who knows? Reply
darkdemyze - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkWhatever it is I'm interested in reading about it Reply
Regs - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkWhatever it is, it's going to be expensive. Reply
TrogdorJW - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkActually, I was sort of thinking that the "stopgap solution" might be to cut prices. God only knows that I would love to see a $200 X2 processor! Reply
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkWell, they will have to drop prices at some point after core 2 is actually available. Reply
xFlankerx - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkIndeed, same results as expected. Maybe this will make the AMD fanboys shut up about "waiting to see what the final results are." NOTE: I have a AMD system, I'm simply addressing those that refuse to accept Conroe's superiority.
Although...I must say that this "stop gap" solution by AMD has piqued my curiosity.
But I believe that these say it perfectly;
"One of its stipulations for sending out Socket-AM2 review kits was that the CPUs not be compared to Conroe."
"We do get a sense of concern whenever Conroe is brought up around AMD."
"So when Intel first started talking about its new Core architecture, we turned to AMD for a response that it surely must have had in the works for years, but as you all know we came up empty handed."
Those just say it all for me. Seems like AMD's in trouble. From what I've been reading, K8L doesn't bring in architectural changes either. Sure you get Quad Cores, L3 cache, FB-DIMM support, DDR3, and faster HyperTransport, but if AMD doesn't improve on it's performance-per-clock efficiency, then Intel's Quad Cores (due almost 9 months before AMD's) are going to rule supreme yet again. Reply
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - link
Those just say it all for me. Seems like AMD's in trouble. From what I've been reading, K8L doesn't bring in architectural changes either.
Maybe read up on it first.
Memory mirroring, data poisoning, HT retry protocol support, doubled prefetch size (32byte instead of 16), 2x 128bit SSE units (instead of 2x 64bit), out of order load execution, Indirect branch predictors and a handful new instructions sure sounds like a few architectural changes and not just a simple revision stepping. Reply
rADo2 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkSorry, links again:
Intel Conroe @ 3.9GHz: SuperPI 1M - 12.984s
AMD FX-57 @ 4.2GHz: SuperPI 1M - 21.992s
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php...">http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php... Reply
MadAd - Monday, May 29, 2006 - linkTry measuring like for like and then come back with your silly benchmark comparison. EG use a superpi data size that will fit on BOTH cpus caches, not just conroes and then compare performance.
With the FX57 having just a 1M cache its bullsht smoke and mirrors saying the 1M superpi is slower, o rly? perhaps thats because it takes more than 1M to hold both the feature and data sets on a 1M superpi.
muppet Reply
rADo2 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkK8L is just a marketing, nothing else. Have you seen K8L CPU? No? AMD is about 2x slower than upcomming Conroe, so they have to spread some fud, to keep their fanboys happy...
This is the magical performance I am speaking about, AMD cannot come even close:
Intel Conroe @ 3.9GHz: SuperPI 1M - 12.984s
AMD FX-57 @ 4.2GHz: SuperPI 1M - 21.992s
I own X2 4400+ myself (it was a good choice in 6/2005), but within last few months AMD is a very bad choice, as for the price of quite obsolete singelcore AMD you can buy dualcore Intel D930 @ 65nm, and later Conroe. I think only AMD fanboys are buying AMD now, AMD has the worst price/value ratio, and Conroe will only make this gap wider. Reply
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkOh and yea, I run superpi all day long because its such a valuable application that earns me money! :P Reply
rADo2 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkSuperPI tells A LOT about gaming performance ;) Reply
mesyn191 - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linkSuperPi tells you nothing except how well a CPU runs SuperPi, its not a benchmark.
Its also about as in cache and branchless as your gonna get BTW so the performance increases you can get on it by simply scaling clockspeed are impossible as well. Reply
Questar - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkSuperPi is an outlier in Conroe benchmarks. Reply
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkO rly? Reply
Griswold - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkBlablabla... Reply
absolsp - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkAs suspected, not much of performance gain. Happy with my existing AMD setup. Reply
tony215 - Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - linklikewise, I will be sticking with my 939 venice set-up until conroe is released. Even then, I will wait for some more independent conroe test/reviews before going with Intel. Reply
Locutus465 - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkAfter reading reviews of the new chipset offerings from nVidia and ATI, personally I'm glad I'm running an nForce 4 s393 board. Seems to me the new AM2 chipsets and boards are going to need some maturing before they get good. The new solutions were *not* deffinitivly better than what is out there for s939. In fact, nVidia's offering in my opinion was particularly lack luster in terms of actual performance (compared to the older nForce 4 platform). Reply
Puddyglum - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkDo these results really warrant a change of architecture? I wonder if there is some bottleneck keeping the performance stuck where it was with the 939's. Reply
Questar - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkIt's not an architecture change.
It's a new socket to support DDR2 memory, that's it. Reply
xFlankerx - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - linkAthlon 64s simply don't need the additional bandwidth provided by DDR2. They aren't as starved for it as Pentium 4s. Reply

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Import GeniusShipping activities of importers and exporters around the world http://www.importgenius.com/
Career Advice from the trenches for Supply Chain Professionalshttp://us.viastore.com/careers/advice.html
Based in Seattle, WA, AccountingNet provides resource;links for accounting professionals. A "Research Library" features tax and financial listing from state, federal, and international institutions, as well as selected full text news articles. AccountingNet's "Certified Public Accountant Link Directory" includes; more than 100,000 US accounting firms, and is searchable by person's name, firm name or location, and students may find a browsable list of professional resumes useful.
Hoover's Online: Industry Snapshotshttp://www.hoovers.com/industry-analysis/industry-directory.html
The comprehensive company information database Hoover's Online profiles over 40 industries from adult entertainment and airlines to movies, restaurants, and tobacco at the Industry Snapshots site. The snapshots describe key companies and current trends, and a jargon section clarifies industry-specific terms.
Virtual Computer Libraryhttp://www.lib.utexas.edu/datamanagement/its
Librarians at the University of Texas have developed the Virtual Computer Library, a huge collection of links to computer vendors, user groups, Internet information, books and journals, conferences, FAQs, and more. You can browse the site by clicking topics of interest or search it directly by keyword.
Institute for Operations Research and the Management Scienceshttp://www.informs.org:80/
Lots of links to conferences, research sites, publications, and materials for students.
Selected one of "The 10 BEST Human Resources sites on the Web" by CareerLab.
American Stock Exchangehttp://www.amex.com/
NASDAQ Newsroomhttp://www.nasdaqnews.com/
New York Stock Exchangehttp://www.nyse.com/
Market Information
Has stock quotes, price graphs and market information.
Big Chartshttp://www.bigcharts.com/
Has current market information, charts, and historical quotes.
Monitors mutual fund performance for "sell" signals.
Research and financial advice newsletters.
Wide array of investing news, statistics, and resources.
The Money Pageshttp://www.themoneypages.com/
Guide to banking and financial information.
The Motley Foolhttp://www.fool.com/
An entertaining source of investment advice from professionals and amateurs, and gives model portfolios.
Mutual Funds Home Pagehttp://www.brill.com/
From the Quicken Financial Network.
Silicon Investorhttp://www.siliconinvestor.com/
Follows tech stocks with information and comment.
The Street.comhttp://www.thestreet.com/
Investment information and commentary with columns from James Cramer.
Wall Street Cityhttp://www.wallstreetcity.com/
Wall Street Research Nethttp://www.wsrn.com/
Wright Investors' Servicehttp://www.wisi.com/
Basic information on 13,000 companies.
Company Information
Annual Reports Libraryhttp://www.zpub.com/sf/arl/
Business Wirehttp://www.businesswire.com/
Companies Onlinehttp://www.tripod.lycos.com/smallbiz/index.html
Basic information on 60,000 companies from Dun & Bradstreet and Lycos.
Hoover's Onlinehttp://www.hoovers.com/industry-analysis/industry-directory.html
Gives information about 9,500+ public and private companies.
Moody's Investors Servicehttp://www.moodys.com
Public Register's Annual Report Servicehttp://www.prars.com/
Free annual reports.
Standard & Poors'http://www.standardandpoors.com/en_US/web/guest/home
Banking & Finance
J.P. Morganhttp://www.jpmorgan.com/
Includes currency and financial indices and risk.
Government & Public Organizations
Commerce Departmenthttp://www.commerce.gov/
Federal Reserve Bank of Bostonhttp://www.bos.frb.org/index.htm
Federal Reserve Bank of Chicagohttp://www.chicagofed.org/
Federal Reserve Bank of Dallashttp://www.dallasfed.org/
Federal Reserve Bank of New Yorkhttp://www.ny.frb.org/
Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphiahttp://www.phil.frb.org/
Federal Reserve Bank of San Franciscohttp://www.frbsf.org/
Internal Revenue Servicehttp://www.irs.ustreas.gov/
Good economic and trade information from the Commerce Department.
Business & Financial News
Advertising Agehttp://www.adage.com/
merican City Business Journalshttp://www.bizjournals.com/
Has business news from 41 local markets and 46 industries.
Barron's Onlinehttp://www.barrons.com/
Bloomsberg Personalhttp://www.bloomberg.com/welcome.html
Business Weekhttp://www.businessweek.com/
The Dismal Scientisthttp://www.economy.com/dismal/
Has a wealth of economic data and analysis.
The Economisthttp://www.economist.com/
Entrepreneur Magazinehttp://www.entrepreneurmag.com/
Forbes Digital Toolhttp://www.forbes.com/
Fortune Magazinehttp://www.fortune.com/
Inc. Onlinehttp://www.inc.com/
From Inc. Magazine.
Investor's Business Dailyhttp://www.investors.com/
Kiplinger Onlinehttp://www.kiplinger.com/
Money Magazinehttp://www.money.cnn.com/
Reuters Moneynethttp://www.reuters.com
The Wall Street Journalhttp://services.wsj.com/services/homeu.html
Worth Onlinehttp://www.worth.com/
Business Directories
Well organized collection of Wall Street related Web links.
International Business Resourceshttp://globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/ibrd.asp
From Michigan State University.
Yellow pages style business information.
Thomas Register of Manufacturershttp://www.thomasregional.com/
CEO Expresshttp://www.ceoexpress.com/
Links to many business related sites.
Dow Jones Business Directoryhttp://www.dowjones.com/
Reviews of business oriented sites.
Tips for Job Huntershttp://www.interbiznet.com/hunt/
Updated daily, from Internet Business Network.
MBA Style http://members.aol.com/mbastyle/
Prepare for that interview; dress for success.
Currency Converterhttp://www.oanda.com/converter/classic
Shows how much you must earn in different cities for comparable standards of living.


text:
What the 'American Taxpayer Relief Act' really means to the real estate industryComments Email Print
We are told that any tax act needs to be revenue-neutral; that is, any tax break must be balanced by an increase elsewhere. Although tax rates on high-income taxpayers did increase by 13% in 2013, overall the federal government estimate that the act will cost the government $3.63 trillion dollars over 10 years. Clearly the tax burden has been shifted squarely to individuals with taxable income over $450,000.
However, there is some good news, especially for those individuals with businesses that own property. This good news comes in the form of three tax benefits that survived the act. A brief summary of each is included below. For a full list of all of the extensions provided in the act, you can reference this previous post on the Skoda Minotti blog.
Bonus DepreciationBonus Depreciation allows for a direct, 50% immediate writeoff of many capital expenditures with lives of less than 20 years, including vehicles. In construction, for example, this could be everything from a computer to a new back hoe. In real estate, new office lighting and furniture might apply.
Section 179 Immediate Expensing ProvisionSection 179 has been extended. Taxpayers can directly write off up to $500,000 of new and used capital equipment purchases, similar to assets benefitting from bonus depreciation.(Total purchases need to be less than $2 million in 2013.)
Qualified Leasehold ImprovementsQualified Leasehold Improvements (QLI) are defined by the Internal Revenue Code as any improvement:
According to the act, QLIs may continue to be depreciated over 15 years, rather than 27.5 or 39 years. Moreover, QLIs qualify for bonus depreciation and Sec. 179, up to $250,000.
The restaurant industry needs to pay special attention to this rule. QLIs that are also Qualified Restaurant Property qualify for bonus depreciation.
With the increase in rates on top earners, it is also good news that cost segregation studies performed on buildings are still a valid method to reduce current taxes through accelerated depreciation deductions. You can look forward to a more detailed discussion of "Cost Seg" in a future blog.
`Carried interest' is not a current worryFinally, many have feared the past four years that "carried interest" legislation would pass; that is, income taxed at ordinary rates rather than capital gains rates for those who finance projects, including real estate.
The fear is that such legislation may disrupt progress on new developments. Thankfully, no changes were made in the act. However, we will update you on developments in future blogs.
Paul Etzler is a principal in Skoda Minotti's Real Estate and Construction Group. He is located at the firm's Mayfield Village office.