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HD Video Decode Quality and Performance Summer '07by Derek Wilson on 7/23/2007 5:30 AM EST
- Posted in
- GPUs
63 Comments
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Wozza - Monday, March 17, 2008 - link"As TV shows transition to HD, we will likely see 1080i as the choice format due to the fact that this is the format in which most HDTV channels are broadcast (over-the-air and otherwise), 720p being the other option."
I would like to point out that 1080i has become a popular broadcast standard because of it's lower broadcast bandwidth requirements. TV shows are generally mastered on 1080p, then 1080i dubs are pulled from those masters and delivered to broadcasters (although some networks still don't work with HD at all, MTV for instance who take all deliveries on Digital Beta Cam). Pretty much the only people shooting and mastering in 1080i are live sports, some talk shows, reality TV and the evening news.
Probably 90% of TV and film related blu-rays will be 1080p. Reply
redpriest_ - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkHint: They didn't. What anandtech isn't telling you is that NO nvidia card supports HDCP over dual-DVI, so yeah, you know that hot and fancy 30" LCD with gorgeous 2560x1600 res? You need to drop it down to 1280x800 to get it to work with an nvidia solution.
This is a very significant problem, and I for one applaud ATI for including HDCP over dual-DVI. Reply
DigitalFreak - Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - linkPwnd! Reply
defter - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - linkYou are wrong.
Check Anand's 8600 review, they clearly state that 8600/8500 cards support HDCP over dual-DVI. Reply
DigitalFreak - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkhttp://guru3d.com/article/Videocards/443/5/">http://guru3d.com/article/Videocards/443/5/http://guru3d.com/article/Videocards/443/5/ Reply
Chadder007 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkI see the ATI cards lower CPU usage, but how is the power readings when the GPU is being used compared to the CPU?? Reply
chris92314 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkDoes the HD video acceleration work with other programs, and with non blueray/hddvd sources? For example if I wanted to watch a h.264 encoded .mkv file would I still see the performance and image enhancements. Reply
GPett - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkWell, what annoys me is that there used to be all-in-wonder video cards for this kinda stuff. I do not mind a product line that has TV tuners and HD playback codecs, but not at the expense of 3d performance.
It is a mistake for ATI and Nvidia to try to include this stuff on all video cards. The current 2XXX and 8XXX generation of video cards might not been as pathetic had the two GPU giants focused on actually making a GPU good instead of adding features that not everyone wants.
I am sure lots of people watch movies on their computer. I do not. I don't want a GPU with those features. I want a GPU that is good at playing games. Reply
autoboy - Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - linkAll in wonder cards are a totally different beast. The all in wonder card was simply a combination of a TV tuner card (and a rather poor one) and a normal graphics chip. The TV tuner simply records TV and has nothing to do with playback. ATI no longer sells All in wonder cards because the TV tuner card did not go obsolete quickly, while the graphics core in the AIW card went obsolete quickly, requiring the buyer to buy another expensive AIW card when only the graphics part was obsolete. A separate tuner card made so much more sense.
Playback of video is a totally different thing and the AIW cards performed exactly the same as regular video cards based on the same chip. At the time, playing video on the PC was more rare and the video playback of all cards was essentially the same because no cards offered hardware deinterlacing on their video cards. Now, video on the PC is abundant and is the new Killer App (besides graphics) which drives PC performance, storage, and internet speed. Nvidia was first to the party offering Purevideo support, which did hardware deinterlacing for DVDs and SD TV on the video card instead of in software. It was far superior to any software solution at the time (save a few diehard fans of Dscaler with IVTC) and came out at exactly the right time, with the introduction of media center and cheap TV tuner cards and HD video. Now, Purevideo 2 and AVIVO HD introduce the same high quality deinterlacing to HD video for mpeg2 (7600GT and up could do HD mpeg2 deinterlacing) as well as VC-1 and H.264 content. If you don't think this is important, remember that all new satelite HD broadcasts coming online are in 1080i h264, requiring deinterlacing to look its best, and new products are coming and exist already if you are willing to work for it, that allow you to record this content on your computer. Also, new TV series are likely to be released in 1080i on HD discs because that is their most common broadcast format. If you don't need this fine, but they sell a lot of cards to people who do. Reply
autoboy - Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - linkOh, I forgot to mention that only the video decode acceleration requires extra transistors, the deinterlacing calculations are done on the programable shaders of the cards requiring no additional hardware, just extra code in the drivers to work. The faster the video card, the better your deinterlacing, which explains why the 2400 and the 8500 cannot get perfect scores on the HQV tests. You can verify this on HD 2X00 cards by watching the GPU% in Riva Tuner while forcing different adaptive deinterlacing in CCC. This only works in XP btw. Reply
DigitalFreak - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkBased on Derek's results, I ordered the parts for my new HTPC.
C2D E6850 (Newegg are bastards for pricing this at $325, but I didn't want to wait)
Intel P35 board
Gigabyte 8600GTS (passive cooling)
Wished there was an 8600 board with HDMI out, but oh well...
SunAngel - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkYou confirmed my suspicions all along. I always wondered if the true motive for SLI and Crossfire was to double the benefits of GPU processing rather than separate the graphics performance of 3D and video acceleration. In my eyes, I see SLI and Crossfire being a "bridge" for 3D graphics and Video accleration cards. What I am referring to is the PCIex16(16 lane) slot been for high powered 3D GPUs and the PCIex16(8 lane) slot being for video accleration GPUs.
It is obvious between the HD2900XT and the HD2600XT that one is great at rendering 3D game graphics while the other is great at acceleration motion picture movies.
Personally, this is an okay tactic by the card manufacturers. It segments the performance a little bit better. I do not game the least bit, so the high end cards are something I don't want. But, my taste are different than others that do want it. But those that desire both, can have their cake and eat it too, but using a dual PCIex16 motherboard and installing each type of card.
Overall, good article. You enlightened my purchasing decision. With all the talk about futureproofing that was going around for a while, buying a dual PCIex16 motherboard makes a lot of sense now. Reply
TA152H - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkI don't think you understand the point of the cards.
If you buy the 2900 and a high end processor, you will not have any problems with HD playback, that's the whole point. You don't need a 2600 to go with it. The number of people that buy something as expensive as the 2900XT and a low end processor that is incapable of playing back HD is very, very low to the point where ATI decided it was a mistake to buy it.
So, no, you wouldn't get a 2600 to go with it, you'd get a good processor and the 2900 and that's all you'd need to have the best of both worlds. Reply
Chunga29 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkYes, if by "best" you mean:
- Higher CPU utilization when viewing any HD video content, compared to 8800
- Generally lower price/performance in games compared to 8800
- More flaky (in my experience) drivers than 8800 (though I believe AMD might actually be better on Vista - not that I really care at this point)
Don't pat AMD on the back for skipping UVD on R600. NVIDIA didn't bother to work on VP2 for G80, and yet no one is congratulating them on the decision. I agree that the omission is not the end of the world, mostly because I don't think people running 8800/X2900 cards are really all that concerned with H.264 video. If I were looking to go Blu-ray or HD-DVD, I'd be looking at a set-top box to hook up to my HDTV.
My PC is connected to a 24" LCD that I use for work, not watching movies, and trying to put it next to the TV is more effort than it's worth. Unless H.264 suddenly makes a difference for YouTube and the like (hey - I'd love to see higher quality videos online), I can't say I'm all that concerned. Seems to me there's just a vocal minority whining about the latest features that are used by less than 10% of people.
UVD, PureVideo HD, and a partridge in a pear tree: it's all moot to me! Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - linkOK, do you understand the meaning of the word "context"?
I'm not going into the merits of Nvidia and ATI. I have used both, I consider Nvidia junk, and I do not buy them. If you have had better luck, then go with them. That's not the point, but anyone with any reading comprehension should have figured that out.
He was talking about putting a 2600 and a 2900 on the same motherboard to get the best of both worlds, meaning having all the performance of the 2900 yet getting the HD capabilities of the 2900. Do you understand that?
My point is you don't need the 2600 to get "the best of both worlds", you just need a good processor and you will not miss that feature. I think Nvidia made the right choice too. Most people are morons, and they want just because they want, and they fail to realize nothing is free. Including useless features at a cost is a bad idea, and ATI did the right thing not to, even though you'll have the idiots that think they are missing out on something. Yes, you are, you're missing out on additional cost, additional electricity use, and additional heat dissipation. You don't need it if you buy a reasonable processor for the item. That's the point. Try to understand context better, and realize what he meant by the best of both worlds. Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - linkAssuming your "good processor" falls somewhere between the two tested C2D processors, dropping UVD boosts average processor usage around 42% in Transporter2, 44% in Yozakura, and 24% in Serenity. So which uses more electricity and generates more heat - the additional transistors needed for UVD on the 2900, or moving your CPU off idle to do the work? Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - linkPrevious post should have said "HD capability of the 2600". Reply
Chunga29 - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - linkFor someone trying to act superior, you need to take a look in the mirror (and the dictionary) for a moment. I agree it's silly to use something like a 2600 and 2900 in the same system. However, if you want the "best of both worlds", let's consider for a minute what that means:
Best (courtesy of Mirriam Webster):
1 : excelling all others
2 : most productive of good: offering or producing the greatest advantage, utility, or satisfaction
So, if you truly want the best of both worlds, what you really want is:
UVD from ATI RV630
3D from NVIDIA G80
Anything less than that is not the "best" anymore (though I'm sure some ATI fans would put R600 3D above G80 for various reasons).
Try ditching the superlatives instead of copping an attitude and constantly defending ever post you make. If you want to say that R600 with a fast CPU is more than sufficient for H.264 playback as well as providing good 3D performance, you're right. The same goes for G80. If you want to argue that it may have been difficult and not entirely necessary to cram UVD into R600, you can do that, but others will disagree.
Since they were at something like 700 million transistors, they may have been out of room. That seems very bloated (especially considering the final performance), but how many transistors are required for UVD? I'd say it was certainly possible to get UVD in there, but would the benefit be worth the cost? Given the delays, it probably was best to scrap UVD. However, the resulting product certainly isn't able to offer the best possible feature set in every area. In fact, I'd say it's second in practically every area to other GPUs (G80/86 and RV630, depending on the feature). As others have pointed out in the past, that's a lot like the NV30 launch. Reply
autoboy - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkWhat?? Reply
scosta - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkI think this sentence in page 1 is wrong!
While the R600 based Radeon HD 2900 XT only supports the features listed as "Avivo", G84 and G86 based hardware comprise the Avivo HD feature set (100% GPU offload) for all but VC-1 decoding ...
Dont you mean ...
While the R600 based Radeon HD 2900 XT only supports the the features listed as "Avivo", HD 2400 and HD 2600 based hardware comprise the Avivo HD feature set (100% GPU offload) for all but VC-1 decoding ...
Regards Reply
smitty3268 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkNo. The 2400 and 2600 have support for Avivo HD feature set even with VC-1 decoding, while the G84 and G86 don't so their quote is correct. If a little confusing, since Avivo is ATI terminology. Nevertheless, it is basically equivalent to the NVIDIA hardware. Reply
scosta - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkI think this sentence in page 1 is wrong!

While the R600 based Radeon HD 2900 XT only supports the features listed as "Avivo", G84 and G86<\b> based hardware comprise the Avivo HD feature set (100% GPU offload) for all but VC-1 decoding ...<\blockquote>
Dont you mean ...

the features listed as "Avivo", HD 2400 and HD 2600 based hardware comprise the Avivo HD feature set (100% GPU offload) for all but VC-1 decoding ...<\blockquote>
Regards Reply
iwodo - Monday, July 23, 2007 - link
We have to stress here that, in spite of the fact that NVIDIA and AMD expect the inclusion of video decode hardware on their low end hardware to provide significant value to end users, we absolutely cannot recommend current low end graphics card for use in systems where video decode is important. In our eyes, with the inability to provide a high quality HD experience in all cases, the HD 2400, GeForce 8500, and lower end hardware are all only suitable for use in business class or casual computing systems where neither games nor HD video play a part in the system's purpose.
May be i am the only one who doesn't understand why would they not recommend a Geforce 8500 for Low end machine? Reply
Chunga29 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkThe NVIDIA 8500 drivers are not currently working with PureVideo HD, I believe was mentioned. Reply
ssiu - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkNVIDIA PureVideo HD still doesn't support Windows XP, correct? That would be the deciding factor for many people (instead of a noise reduction score of 15% versus 25% etc.) Reply
legoman666 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkthis man hit the nail on the head. A couple months ago i was on the verge of buying a new video card for my htpc with h.264 acceleration, but upon learning that those features were only enabled for vista (bleh) I decided not to upgrade at all. Reply
DigitalFreak - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkAny ideas as to why the HQV scores are almost totally opposite of what http://techreport.com/reviews/2007q3/radeon-hd-240...">The Techreport came up with? I'd trust AT's review more, but it seems strange that the scores are so different. Reply
phusg - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkYes very interesting! FTA:
Also, even on the 8600 GTS, Nvidia's noise reduction filter isn't anywhere near ready for prime-time. This routine may produce a solid score in HQV, but it introduces visible color banding during HD movie playback. AMD's algorithms quite clearly perform better.
DigitalFreak - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkI'm wondering if they ran with the noise filter at over 75% in their test. As Derek mentioned, higher than 75% produced banding. I also noticed that Derek used 163.x drivers, while TR used 162.x.
Honestly, I wish there was an 8600 GT/GTS with HDMI out. Would really love to avoid running two cables to my receiver. Reply
Gary Key - Monday, July 23, 2007 - link
Honestly, I wish there was an 8600 GT/GTS with HDMI out. Would really love to avoid running two cables to my receiver.
There will be in about 60 days, hardware is sampling now. ;) Reply
bpt8056 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkDoes it have HDMI 1.3?? Reply
phusg - Monday, July 23, 2007 - link
As Derek mentioned, higher than 75% produced banding.
Indeed, which makes it strange that he gave the nvidia cards 100% scores! Sure manual control on the noise filter is nice, but 100% is 100% Derek. It working badly when set above 75% makes for a less than perfect HQV score IMHO. Personally I would have gone with knocking off 5 points from the nvidia card's noise scores for this. Reply
Scrogneugneu - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkI would have cut points back too, but not because at 100% the image quality goes down. There's no sense in providing a slider if every position on the slider gives the same perfect image, doesn't it?
Giving a slider, however, isn't very user-friendly, from an average Joe's perspective. I want to dump my movie in the player and listen to it, and I want it to look great. I do not want to move a slider around for every movie to get a good picture quality. Makes me think about the Tracking on old VHS. Quite annoying.
From a technological POV, yes, NVidia's implementation enables players to be great. From a consumer's POV, it doesn't. I wanna listen to a movie not fine tune my player. Reply
Chunga29 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkIt's all about the drivers, people! TechReport did their review with older drivers (at least on the NVIDIA side). So in the past two weeks, NVIDIA apparently addressed some problems and AT took a look at the current results. Probably delayed the article a couple times to rerun tests as well, I bet!
As for the above comment about the slider, what you're failing to realize is that noise reduction impacts the final output. I believe Sin City used a lot of noise intentionally, so if you watch that on ATI hardware the result will NOT be what the director wanted. A slider is a bit of a pain, but then being a videophile is also a pain at times. With an imperfect format and imperfect content, we will always have to deal with imperfect solutions. I'd take NVIDIA here as well, unless/until ATI offers the ability to shut off NR. Reply
phusg - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkHi Derek,
Nice article, although I've just noticed a major omission: you didn't bench any AGP cards! There are AGP versions of the 2600 and 2400 cards and I think these are very attractive upgrades for AGP HTPC owners who are probably lacking the CPU power for full HD. The big question is whether the unidirectional AGP bus is up to the HD decode task. The previous generation ATi X1900 AGP cards reportedly had problems with HD playback.
Hopefully you'll be able to look into this, as AFAIK no-one else has yet.
Regards, Pete Reply
ericeash - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linki would really like to see these tests done on an AMD x2 proc. the core 2 duo's don't need as much offloading as we do. Reply
Orville - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkDerek,
Thanks so much for the insightful article. I've been waiting on it for about a month now, I guess. You or some reader could help me out with a couple of embellishments, if you would.
1.How much power do the ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT, Radeon HD 2600 Pro, Nvidia GeForce 6800 GTS and GeForce 6800 GT graphics cards burn?
2.Do all four of the above mentioned graphics cards provide HDCP for their DVI output? Do they provide simultaneous HDCP for dual DVI outputs?
3.Do you recommend CyberLink's Power DVD video playing software, only?
DerekWilson - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkwe'll add power numbers tonight ... sorry for the omission
all had hdcp support, not all had hdcp over dual-link dvi support
powerdvd and windvd are good solutions, but powerdvd is currently further along. we don't recommend it exclusively, but it is a good solution. Reply
phusg - Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - linkI still can't see them, have they been added? Thanks. Reply
GlassHouse69 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkI agree here, good points.
15% cpu utilization looks great until.... you find that a e4300 takes so little power that to use 50% of it to decode is only 25 watts of power. It is nice seeing things offloaded from the cpu.... IF the video card isnt cranking up alot of heat and power.
TA152H - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkJust my opinion, but I would save money on the Power DVD if you are buying ATI and just use theirs. Power DVD is not cheap, and I personally do not like it is much, but I am sure others do. He has to use it, of course, because how else would he be able to test Nvidia and ATI on the same software. But it's not a trivial expense, and the ATI stuff works well enough that it seems, to me, an unnecessary expense. You might be happier with spending that money on hardware instead of Power DVD. Again, all this assumes an ATI card purchase. Reply
phusg - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkGood questions. From what I've seen the 2600 Pro is the least power hungry card at under 50W. Any chance you could shed some light Derek? Reply
TA152H - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkChoosing a Pentium 4 560 is a really strange choice, do you think there are a lot of them out there with PCI-E waiting to upgrade to one of these cards. It's a minor point, but I think a Pentium D 805 would have been an excellent choice, since a lot of people bought these and it would be a much more interesting data point, and many of them on PCI-E based motherboards.
My next point is the expectation of the 2900 XT. I totally disagree this is something they needed to add, because what they are saying is absolutely true. Someone who will buy this item will almost certainly do it with a very capable CPU. Since high end processors are dual cores, it is not as if you can not do something else if the CPU is assisting with it. It's not free, you pay for it with cost, and you pay for it with power use, and you pay for it to heat, and it's going to be a waste the vast majority of time. Considering the power use of the 2900 is appalling already, adding to this is highly undesirable considering the very questionable usefulness of it.
I think they should be congratulated for using intelligent feature targeting for their products, rather than bloating a product with useless features and making people pay for it. Reply
johnsonx - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - linkClearly, the point was to get a single-core point of reference. While admittedly that exact CPU would be a slightly rare case, it's a simple matter to benchmark it since it fits the same 775 mainboard as the two Core2 chips. A PD805 wouldn't be much use to compare, as it would simply be a bit slower than the E4300... so what? The P4 560 makes a reasonable proxy for the variety of good performing single-core P4's and Athlon64's out there, while the E4300 stands in for all the X2's.
TA152H - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - linkAre you crazy?
The Pentium D 805 is a very popular chip and widely used, and represents an entirely different architecture. It would be an extremely valid data point because it's a popular item. It's not "a little slower", it has completely different performance characteristics.
A Pentium 560 owner will probably never buy this card, and many of these owners are not even on a PCI-E platform. I wouldn't even have had a problem if they sold a single core Sempron, but a Pentium 560 makes no sense at all. People are still buying the 805, in fact, and you don't think the idea of popping one of these cards with an 805, while waiting for the Penryn to come out, is not something people think about? Or a similar Pentium D? Except, they'll not know how it performs. Luckily, though, they'll know how the Pentium 560 performs, because, I'm sure, that is their next choice.
100proof - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkDerek,
Seeing as this is an article concerning media decoding with an emphasis towards HD media playback, shouldn't Anandtech be applying some pressure on Nvidia to support open drivers for linux? mythTV and XBMC are promising HTPC options, perfectly suited towards this test scenario.
Why should h.264 offloading be exclusive to users of Microsoft operating systems? Reply
100proof - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkThis complaint applies to ATi\AMD as well. Reply
erwos - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkLinux doesn't have a framework to support H.264 or VC-1 acceleration yet. When that happens, I would expect the binary drivers to catch up fairly quickly. Reply
smitty3268 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkActually, it does. The problem is that it is open source, while the MS equivalent is closed. ATI/NVIDIA don't want to share their specs in an open manner and never came up with a suitable API to make public. Reply
wien - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkWell, gstreamer allows for closed source plug-ins since it's licensed under LGPL. Fluendo has already implemented a lot of proprietary (patented) codecs in gstreamer. With the required features exposed through the driver, it shouldn't be too hard for the IHVs to do the same with hardware accelerated H.264/VC-1.
It's probably not worth their time yet though... Reply
erwos - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkDoes it? Because I thought that was only for MPEG-2. Link? Reply
smitty3268 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkMost drivers only support it with MPEG-2, but that doesn't mean it isn't capable of more. Looking again, I'm a little unclear about how much work would be required to get it working. I'm not sure if it is completely done and just requires support from the hardware vendors or if it also needs some additional work before that happens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Video_Motion_Compen...">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Video_Motion_Compen... Reply
Per Hansson - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkHi, it would be really interesting to see similar tests done in Linux also
For example how cheap of a HTPC rig can you build, with free software too, and still provide betters features than any of the commercial solutions.
I think we are many that have some old hardware laying around. And when seeing this article it brings up ideas. Pairing the old computer with a (AGP?) ATI 2600 card would provide an ideal solution in a nice HTPC chassi under the TV perhaps? Reply
jojo4u - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkLinux is not practical. You would have to crack AACS and dump the disc first. Reply
Per Hansson - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkHmm, I did not realize that
However a HTPC can still be built to be a player for satellite data for example, granted configuring all that up with a subscription card will not be for the faint of heart. But then again the Dreambox 8000 is not available yet, only a new decoder from Kathrein UFS910 with no decent software (yet) Reply
jojo4u - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkHi Derek,
good review. However, based on a review of the german written magazine C't I have some suggestions and additions:
PowerDVD patch 2911, Catalyst 7.6, Nvidia 158.24
- the Geforce G84/85 miss not only VC-1 but also MPEG-2 bitstream processing.
- the HD 2400 does not have MPEG-2 bitstream processing, frequency transform and pixel prediction or it is not activated.
- A single core Athlon is significantly worse than a single core Pentium IV. The reson is AACS. Decryption puts a hudge load on the CPU and is optimized for Intel CPUs (9%->39% H.264, Pentium IV, Casino Royale). Perhaps later patches made the situation better (like your Yozakura shows?)
- VC-1 on the Radeons and Geforces showed picture distortions, but based on your review this seems to be fixed now
Combinations of Athlon 3500+, X2 6000+, Pentium IV 3,2 GHz, Pentium E2160 and HD 2400/2600, Geforce 8600 GTS which resulted in lagging in MPEG-2 or VC-1 or H.264
Pentium IV + 8600 Reply
Chunga29 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkWhy run with older drivers? If these features are important to you, you will need to stay on top of the driver game. Would have been interesting to see AMD chips in there, but then that would require a different motherboard as well. I think the use of a P4 560 was perfectly acceptable - it's a low-end CPU and if it can handle playback with the 2600/8600 then Athlons will be fine as well. Reply
8steve8 - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linknice article..
but, while i usually think anandtech conclusions are insightful and spot on,
it seems odd not to give props to the 2600xt which dominated the benchmarks.
for the occasional gamer who often likes watching videos, it seems the 2600xt is a great choice, better than the 8600gts.
for example for VC1, on a low end c2duo the difference between 7% and 19.2% matters, esp if the person likes watching a video while working or browsing or whatever...
can amd add noise reduction options later w/ a driver update? Reply
defter - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - link
for example for VC1, on a low end c2duo the difference between 7% and 19.2% matters, esp if the person likes watching a video while working or browsing or whatever...
How can that matter? Even in worst case you have 80% of idle CPU time.
Besides, how can you "work" while watching video at the same time? And don't try to tell me that a web browser takes over 80% of CPU time with Core2 Duo system... Reply
drebo - Monday, July 23, 2007 - link
it seems odd not to give props to the 2600xt which dominated the benchmarks.
We all know why this is.
I'll give you a hint: look at the overwhelming presence of Intel advertising on this site.
It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. That's why I don't take the video and CPU reviews on this site seriously anymore. Reply
DigitalFreak - Monday, July 23, 2007 - link/ignore Reply
drebo - Monday, July 23, 2007 - linkWillful ignorance, rose-colored glasses, selective blindness, et cetera.
You have fun with that. Reply
johnsonx - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - linkPlease go back to your fanboi sites then and don't bother us here.


text:
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Over the six years following his 2001 trip, Clifford was twice drawn back to Squamish -- he established Frontside (V12), another long-standing project, and flashed When Harry Met Sally (V12). During these trips, his focus narrowed on the Room Project and he began to make progress on the problem.
"[The Room Project] was a problem I've wanted to do since I set eyes on it in 2001," says Clifford. "As we applied for residency, I had that problem specifically in mind."
After a two-year wait for their residency application to be accepted, Clifford, his wife, Anne, and their year-old daughter, Josephine, packed up their belongings and moved to Squamish. They arrived in April 2007, and Clifford became re-acquainted with the project, doing it after about five visits.
The Singularity, Clifford explains, is a term physicists use to describe the zero-volume, infinitely dense region at the center of a black hole.
"I suppose climbers, especially boulders, have a very strong relationship with gravity," he says. "From my understanding the singularity is the theory that, at the center of a black hole, the gravity is so strong that even light cannot escape. I suppose that's what we're trying to do every time we climb -- escape from gravity.
"It's definitely the best first ascent of a boulder problem I've done, and ranks with one of the best hard problems I've done. It's always very satisfying to be the first person to work out how to do a problem. For me, it's a perfect problem."So what's next? Anne did joke that we could go back to the U.K. now that I've done The Singularity. I told her not yet, as I think it may go from the sit!

subset: commoncrawl


text:
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text:
Airport Extreme (5th Gen) and Time Capsule (4th Gen) Review - Faster WiFiby Brian Klug on 8/5/2011 10:22 PM EST
- Posted in
- Mac
- Airport Extreme
- Time Capsule
- WiFi
90 Comments
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kylewat - Friday, August 05, 2011 - linkThe airport extreme gen numbers change from the top chart to the bottom on the FCC Docs page. Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkThanks, fixed!
-Brian Reply
bigrobsf - Friday, August 05, 2011 - linkMinor typo in AFS discussion paragraph in the "WiFi Throughput and Range - Improved page:
"Airport Extreme makes a hue difference"
I'm guessing you wanted to write "huge" :-) Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkGood catch, thanks, should be fixed!
-Brian Reply
iwod - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI just wish they put out a Raid 1 2.5" HDD Time Capsule so i know my data is going to fairly safe. HDD failure are happening more often these days and with their huge capacity i just cant afford to lose some of my content. Reply
repoman27 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkJust use one of these: http://www.icydock.com/goods.php?id=121
Combine with a brace of Western Digital WD10JPVT or Samsung Spinpoint M8 HN-M101MBB and you'll have 1 TB of RAID 1 goodness. Reply
Penti - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkRaid 1 doesn't really protect from bit rot, just pure 1 drive failure. However they should take reliability and data corruption seriously, but it's not enterprise hardware so you can't really expect it. Reply
jackwong - Sunday, August 14, 2011 - linkI will never go with TC unless they have a better backup solution of the TC itself.
I have a Synology 1 bay NAS with a external USB to backup all the contents on it. Reply
cheinonen - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkThough I imagine most people won't be confused, labeling it as "Smaller values are better" when all the values are negative could cause people to read the data incorrectly. Perhaps "Closer to 0 is better" or something else? Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkTotally agreed, edited those tables to make it more easy to follow.
-Brian Reply
jigglywiggly - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linktime capsule wins an award for stealing your money.
500$ for a wireless 3tb hd? Don't be sodding st00pid. Reply
repoman27 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - link$300 for a $150 simultaneous dual-band, three-stream router with gigabit switch, on board SATA controller and an $80 HD, all in one compact little unit along with the PSU? Not a bad deal, really.
Paying $200 (2/3) more for a $70 HD upgrade that only provides 50% more storage space? Questionable, but Apple knows that most people won't bother to upgrade themselves because they'd be out of pocket an additional $150 for the drive and then have to open a brand new device to make the swap. Reply
jackwong - Sunday, August 14, 2011 - linkIt is more about the data on the TC, and it runs EXTREMELY hot during Summer...
This is my setup, Airport Extreme base station, Synology 1 bay with 2TB, and a Sesgate goflex 2.5" 1.5TB to backup the Synology. These cost me ~$550 but if the nas has problem, I can still have all the data on the 1.5TB Seagate. Reply
name99 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkThen don't buy one.
Connect a USB drive to your Airport base station.
Or use network time machine to back up to whatever home server/HTPC mac you have sitting around. That's what I do.
I honestly do not understand why people feel compelled to tell the world: "this product is a bad match for me and my needs and therefore no-one should ever use it".
Do you apply the same logic to, I don't know, Intel chips? Damn those Xeon's are expensive --- and they even run at slower rates than my i5. Anyone who buys one is obviously an idiot. Reply
HilbertSpace - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkDid you try putting the mini Broadcom PCIe into the Gen 4 Airport Extreme and seeing if you can do an upgrade that way? Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI considered it for a long time, but decided that I wasn't sure it was worth spending too much time on (particularly because I have no idea where you could buy just the card) and because there's ostensibly some firmware flash that must go along with the Gen 5. I'm not sure whether there's a way to force a firmware update with the Gen 5 firmware on a Gen 4.
-Brian Reply
hechacker1 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkThe only missing feature IMHO is some type of QoS management and uPNP.
I have a 4th Gen Airport Extreme, and as you say it's a stable router that just seems compatible with everything (everything connects reliably).
I'd love to upgrade to the 5th Gen for the extra power (that's surprising Apple cranks it up that high), but when it comes to using p2p and gaming at the same time, the lack of QoS prioritization kills it.
Then it doesn't have uPnP, which more broadly supported than NAT-PMP. The Airport also has a nasty bug of forgetting your port forwardings and MAC address bindings, as soon as the network card sleeps for too long (a few hours).
So it's back to a router that supports more open features and can also have its radios power cranked up to match the Airport. There's a few good dual band routers out there are are pretty much all open source (even the wireless chip!). Reply
Zok - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkLike what? I bought a Netgear WNDR3700 quite some time ago because it was one of the highest performing dual band / dual radio devices at the time (supposedly the SoC was faster than it's competitors).
That said, it's been an absolute nightmare to get DD-WRT on it and stable (radio performance and range gets trashed) and the factory GUI is severely lacking (doesn't allow for PAT, for example). Have any suggestions on something DD-WRT compatible, but can also drive dual radios for both bands (2x2 or 3x3, 40 MHz on both, preferable)? Reply
hechacker1 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI'm using OpenWRT on the 3700v2. Check out the OpenWRT forums for community builds that let you set the radios to their max power output (24dBm on 5GHz 40MHz, 27dBm on 2.4GHz 40MHz). It reaches the hardware limit.
Surprisingly, the new Airport Extreme has slightly more power output at 5GHz than the 3700v2.
OpenWRT has been stable on this router for me. It's a great alternative to the Airport if you want LOTS of power output and open source software with tons of features.
The biggest con with OpenWRT is that its interface sucks; but whatever, you only have to set it up once. Reply
name99 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkuPNP I couldn't give a damn about, and neither can Apple.
They have their solution for devices transparently connecting to each other, in the form of Bonjour, and that's not going to change. Like NAT-PMP it's an IETF standard and, for all the complaints otherwise, Apple is actually a pretty standards compliant company.
The two obvious (IMHO) missing features (which could both be added with software, at least to some extent) are QoS and transparent caching (most easily by running squid on the device and having it store the cache on any attached storage --- stick in an 8GB USB flash drive if you have nothing better). I continue to think that the rumors regarding base stations being part of iCloud will likely prove true in the long run --- it's to Apple's obvious advantage to be able to offload as much work to base stations as possible via transparent caching.
I also have no idea what the complaint about "forgetting your port forwardings" refers to. I used a 3rd gen extreme for years, and switch to a 4th gen about six months ago, and I have NEVER had my port forwardings forgotten or borked in any way.
Personally if someone is going to complain, the real item to complain about is the USB performance which was so crappy it was unbelievable in the 3rd gen, and appears unimproved even today. Come on, Apple --- even if the Marvell chip is garbage, spend the extra buck and buy a decent 3rd party USB controller. I think the best we can hope for is that the 6th gen device uses an upgraded Marvell chip with a USB3 controller that is lousy by the standards of USB3, but gives at least say 60MB/s. Reply
edporras - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkQoS would definitely be handy but not having the ability to forward port 53 just killed me. I really wish there was a way to disable the ABS' DNS server. Or if anyone has figured it out, please share. Reply
geekd0m - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI'll second the request for QOS and uPNP on these. I would love to get the Airport Extreme or Time Capsule for their solid performance, but really need the QOS.... Reply
MGSsancho - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkhttp://www.anandtech.com/Gallery/Album/1282#13 passwords Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkThat's my placeholder password ;)
-Brian Reply
pius - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkHi Brian
Thank you for a very thorough review! Based on your review I think I'm going to buy the new AirPort Extreme. I think I need two of them to reach the entire appartment. Should I instead then get one and then add an Express? Or will I then lose the advantages of the new Extreme? Also, is the Extreme any better that the Express when I don't need the USB and ethernet ports? I've heard about a device limit on the Express. Does that also apply if I only use it for extending the Extreme? Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI have an Express I originally intended to use to "extend" the network (really just WDS), but ran into all sorts of issues. I don't think they've updated that product in a while, and yeah the Extreme has much more power and range than the Express in general.
-Brian Reply
gameman733 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkDuring the review, you mentioned that you ran into some trouble with Lenovo blocking the installation of mini-pcie wireless cards. I just wanted to let you know that this is definitely not the first time I've heard of it happening, and its not a recent thing.
My old laptop, a Compaq Presario V2402US, purchased in 2005, didn't come with a wireless card. I went looking for a 3rd party wireless card (buying from HP didn't make sense when it came with a mini-pci slot available, and I could find a mini-pci card cheaper), and came across a page that mentioned several HP/Compaq laptops that did exactly what your Lenovo laptop did.
As I recall, it was only watching the device and vendor ID's of the card, and the bios could be modded to take any card, but this really shouldn't be necessary. The only close to legitimate reason I could think of was FCC clearance, but that doesn't make any sense either. Anyway, just wanted to share my experience. Reply
Alchemy69 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkOh look, Apple have invented Wi-Fi. Expect lawsuits Reply
repoman27 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI bet it would work just fine. As long as you update the older model to version 7.5.2 of the AirPort Base Station and Time Capsule firmware first (available download from Apple), you should be good to go. The reference module has everything it needs, and the main board is the same hardware revision. No muss, no fuss.
eBay has scads of listings for various Broadcom reference modules which can be used to upgrade older Macs, so I imagine it's only a matter of time before these hit the streets as well.
And it was an amazing review - everything I've been hoping for since I was looking at Hardmac's take apart photos back in June and noticed that Apple had switched from a Marvell to a Broadcom radio module. Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkThanks! Interesting, if the reference module BCM94331 comes up, I'll definitely give it a shot. I too bet it would work, I just wonder whether the device only gets flashed an image with the appropriate controller drivers depending on what "generation" it is, as opposed to actually looking at what card is installed.
-Brian Reply
tipoo - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkAre there any non-Apple routers using this new Broadcom wireless chip? Would they get the same performance with the same chip, or is there some added Apple-juice in there? No doubt this is a great router, just very pricey. Reply
tipoo - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkOi, I should read slower, heh
"There's a stigma that Apple gear is more expensive, and for the 3TB Time Capsule that may be the case, but the Airport Extreme is actually right near where it should be. Take for comparison the Linksys E4200, which is a 2x3:2 device on 2.4GHz, and 3x3:3 on 5GHz, and also Broadcom based. That device runs for $179.99 and features similar functionality including a USB 2.0 port for sharing devices. At $179.00, the Airport Extreme offers full 3x3:3 on both 2.4 and 5GHz, albeit the E4200 does have considerably more Tx power, which we'll investigate in a forthcoming article." Reply
lowlymarine - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkCalling Caviar Green's "server grade" strikes me as galling even for Apple, who are pretty willing to play fast-and-loose with truth in advertising as it is. Reply
repoman27 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkThis odd bit of nomenclature has been around and much debated since Apple first introduced the Time Capsule. WD Caviar Green drives generally offer the lowest price per GB combined with some of the best performance per watt for a 3.5" spinning disk on the market... Just ask Google how many they currently have deployed. So yes, they are ideal for servers.
What isn't "server grade" in the Time Capsule is the utter lack of redundancy within the device itself. The intended usage model for the TC is as a backup device though, so there is redundancy in the overall system, i.e. you never actually store critical data on it, just a backup of critical data, therefore if it fails it's not much of a problem. Reply
solipsism - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkCan the Linksys E4200's USB port be used for a printer the way the Time Capsule and AirPort Extreme/Express can? Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI know it can share attached USB Mass Storage devices, but I'm actually not certain about printers. Jarred probably will talk about it in his review soon.
-Brian Reply
ThomasA - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkDoes the AE software offer a means to record data usage? With the 'new' DSL caps set by At&t I'd like to be able to compare my info on usage vs. theirs. Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkYou could watch the SNMP counters and use one of many software packages (including some big ones like MRTG/Cacti) but that's sort of daunting admittedly. There's nothing in airport utility that will show data use. That's just another thing I leave to Tomato on a WRT54G-TM personally.
-Brian Reply
deadshort - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkHere's a general suggestion for hardware reviews: could you plug the gizmo under examination into a power meter instead of just the wall and eyeball up some numbers? These days green geeks fret over these matters, especially for 365x24 devices like routers. The badge or spec. numbers are often worthless. Just a thought, thanks.
Oh, nice review, BTW. I agree that the recent Apple 802.11 gear is getting boringly reliable and decent, in a good sense. You can't tweak the firewall in quite the gruesome detail I'd like, but the box never needs attention or unplanned restarts. The he.com tunnel works fine, the BSD/Roku/Apple/Sony/Epson clients are happy, there is no drama to upset the non-geeks. Not bad, even for the price. Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkI actually completely forgot to mention my Kill-A-Watt numbers. I don't recall the Time Capsule numbers off the top of my head, I saw a peak power use of 11 watts on the Airport Extreme Gen 4 (while data was being transacted on 2.4 and 5 GHz) and 12 watts on the Gen 5.
-Brian Reply
ThomasA - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkYes, I read of MRT/Cacti. Also looked into replacing AE with a Netgear WNDR4000 that offers the data usage meter. I'd prefer the Apple, but must look ahead. Too bad. Reply
Jacob Marley - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkOn page 3...
"Marvell 88E6350R 7 port GigE switch, with 5 physical interfaces, all of which support up to 10 KByte jumbo frames."
So the hardware supports jumbo frames, but does the software?
I have yet to find a home router that supports and enables jumbo frames at the switch level.
Jumbo frames make no difference for internet bound traffic but it seems to make a big difference for LAN based large data transfers. Reply
jay2901 - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkbrian,
why do you use a separate box for nat? better firewall? curious as to what that device is...
thanks. Reply
Brian Klug - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkI prefer the wealth of configuration options that going that route provides. Specifically software like Tomato, DD-WRT, or if you're really feeling daring, a FreeBSD based solution with a PHP wrapper like m0n0wall or pfSense.
Just a ton more options for firewall, reporting, bandwidth tracking, QoS, e.t.c.
-Brian Reply
danacee - Saturday, August 06, 2011 - linkUse D-link, or if you really have to Netgear.. Although only D-link I know for sure makes 5/2.4ghz N routers that never EVER have to reset and run for years. Netgear I've only seen that sort of reliability with their Wireless G routers
Linksys is rotten filthy garbage just like everything else Cisco makes, avoid it. They've not made a single wireless router in the past 2 years that doesn't shit itself and need a reset nearly every day.
-Your helpful networking tech. Reply
thingi - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkApple infuriate me sometimes. It would appear that the 'new' time capsule still can't join a wireless network without it's Ethernet ports becoming being disabled if nothing has changed apart from the wifi card :-(
My iPhone is my only source of net connection which is 80Gb (yes thats eight-zero gigabytes) of 'fair usage' per month which is oodles for a 3G connection so here's what I want to do:-
'iPhone Personal Hotspot' > Time Capsule > Airport Express (wifi-to-eth) > xbox
The trouble is that when a time capsule joins a network it's ethernet ports fall asleep. So instead I have to do the following:-
'iPhone Personal Hotspot' > Airport Express (wfi-to-eth) > Time Capsule > 2nd Airport Express (wfi-to-eth) > xbox.
The really stupid thing is that a Time Capsule is more powerful piece of network equipment than an airport express, there is no reason why the ethernet ports should fall asleep just because Apple have deemed that users must connect a Time Capsule directly with an iPhone personal hotspot without crippling it.
The other slightly annoying thing about this setup is that Apple in their infinite wisdom have deemed to force iPhone personal hotspots to set up a 'g' connection instead of an 'n' one (ok it would still be an 2.4Ghz due to the iPhone radio but that would be better than being stuck at 'g' for no good reason in a totally 'g' saturated neighbourhood!
thingi Reply
repoman27 - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkWhen you tell an AirPort Express / Extreme or Time Capsule to "Join a wireless network" it becomes a client on that network and ceases to perform as a router. This is really only useful to share attached USB or audio devices wirelessly.
When you enable Personal Hotspot on an iPhone 4, it creates a wireless network (802.11n (b/g compatible), 2.4 GHz band, single spatial stream, WPA encryption) and provides DHCP and NAT to share your cellular internet connection. 802.11n connections are actually possible according to this article: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4163/verizon-iphone-... but if you're in a neighborhood where 2.4 GHz is saturated, as many are, there's not much you can do about it. Not many phones have 5 GHz WiFi radios these days.
If you just want to provide an internet connection for your Xbox, the simplest solution is to buy a WiFi adapter for it and configure that to connect to your iPhone's Personal Hotspot. In order to bridge your Personal Hotspot to your wired network, you would have to set your Time Capsule's Internet Connection: Connection Sharing setting to "Off (Bridge Mode)", set the Wireless: Wireless Mode setting to "Extend a wireless network", and then choose your Personal Hotspot as the network to extend. For various reasons, I'm going to guess that this will never work though. Besides, the iPhone Personal Hotspot only supports a maximum of 3 (GSM models) or 5 (CDMA models) clients via WiFi, so you can't really have much else on your LAN unless you put it behind yet another router.
It might be easier to tether your iPhone via USB to a Mac or PC, turn on internet connection sharing over the ethernet adapter, and then connect that to a Time Capsule set to bridge mode. Reply
ginghus_khan2000 - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkI was a little surprised you didn't test the wifi and hard drives as a system. I'm sure the wifi is the limiting protocol here but there were a few spots where wifi would be faster than the hard drives. Reply
stephenbrooks - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkCan you stack the two Airport Extremes on their side and put the Time Capsule across the top? Reply
Brian Klug - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkWow, that's an awesome idea. I'm going to see if I can set it up ;)
-Brian Reply
deadshort - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkFantastic: thanks for doing that! Spread the word!
If the main motherboard and chipset are the same, I guess it stands to reason that a more powerful radio would take a bit more power. ~250 Wh/day, or about 5% of my fairly careless daily consumption, is worth knowing but not worrying about. Reply
Brian Klug - Sunday, August 07, 2011 - linkYeah, I should note that right now idle seems to be around 8-9 watts without much change.
-Brian Reply
jalin2 - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkI'm in the market to get a new router and was set on getting the E4200. Now I think I'm going to hold off and wait until your router comparison article. Any idea on timeframe when that'll be released? Reply
jackwong - Sunday, August 14, 2011 - linkI would rather go with Apple, the only good Linksys router I have is the WRT54. I also have the e2500 few months ago, I can't believe a 2011 router doesn't has gigabyte ports... and it has connection problem everyday...
I would rather go with Apple Extreme base station unless the e4200 is way cheaper. Reply
melgross - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkI've had a lot of Linksys routers over the years, stupidly, because every one died. That includes some commercial models. I will NEVER use another Linksys product again.
I've got one Extreme, and two Expresses, and have never had a problem with them. As the review says, they just work.
I've got an old house, built in 1925. Most interior walls are brick. All the walls and ceilings have .75" wood over the brick, with gal steel mesh over that, with .75" mortar, and a .25" layer of plaster over that. The damn thing is as close to a Faraday cage as anyone will ever live in. I've removed some of that when re-doing the kitchen and downstairs bathroom as well as the two bathrooms upstairs by having everything stripped to the beams and replaced with double .5" Sheetrock, but still... Reply
Guspaz - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkPerhaps some mention should be made of the fact that Apple advertises the drive in the Time Capsule as a "server-grade hard drive".
You do mention that it's very much a consumer disk (in fact, the most "consumer" you can get since it's not even a black or RAID edition), but Apple is really billing the thing as server-grade, which is false advertising. Reply
jwoelich - Monday, August 08, 2011 - link"Fortunately, a source inside Western Digital was willing to explain matters; "If you enter in the drive number on NewEgg you're going to see it come up as a desktop drive. That platform is actually built on a lot of other products for a lot of different OEMs. And the specs could change depending on whatever program we're building for. Needless to say Apple has very stringent requirements that are very specific to them and very unique to them, and that drive has actually been developed and is unique for that Apple product. That unique Apple logo, and what we call 'to the right of the dash,' if you will, indicate that this drive is for a very particular partner to us and this drive is dedicated to that particular audience. You could not buy this same drive at NewEgg or Amazon."
When we asked whether the variation of the WD20EARS drive is rated for a 1-million-hour MTBF, our source confirmed that it was: "We don't spec our desktop drives with MTBF because our customers don't purchase in that manner, but this particular drive for this particular OEM with these unique requirements does meet those specifications."
Western Digital says otherwise. Reply
repoman27 - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linklowlymarine did mention it in a comment two days ago, to which I pointed out that for price per GB and performance per watt the Caviar Green is tough to beat, and therefore perfect for servers. Just considering how many Google uses, I would be surprised if there is another line of drives more deployed in servers at the moment than Caviar Green.
Not all "servers" are designed for crazy amounts of IOPS, massive queue depths, or incredibly high availability. For backup or redundancy, which is what the Time Capsule is marketed for, you want big, cheap and low-power.
No offense, jwoelich, but although the quote may be legitimate, I have a seriously hard time buying that line of utter crap. We're pretty much down to a three horse race in the storage arena, and just like Intel or AMD might bin things differently or cater to large OEMs in various ways, they basically just pump out a small range of identical products by the millions. There are no "magical drives" that are perfect for servers but not sold by Newegg. The way I read it, Apple had a very stringent range of specifications, to which a bog standard Caviar Green drive happens to adhere perfectly (i.e. low price per GB and low power requirements.) Reply
jwoelich - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkI don't see where anyone stated anything being 'magical', just that if you were to go onto Newegg, you couldn't just order one of these specific drives. Now, does that mean that there is more to it than Western Digital simply taking any WD Green drive, testing it to conform with the criteria set forth by Apple, then throw on a new sticker? Or did WD design/modify a product specifically to meet that criteria? More likely, WD crafted a Frankendrive using the criteria Apple set forth, and used the bare minimum of higher quality components that would more likely ensure that criteria was met, which was probably nothing more than power consumption, size, speed and a greater MTBF. Reply
LoneWolf15 - Monday, August 08, 2011 - link"Some more searching revealed the solution—pin 20 (wireless disable) needs to be taped over to signal the card that the wireless disable switch (which doesn't exist, since this is the WAN port) is in the on position. A quick surgical application of tape, and the card worked perfectly—take that, Lenovo security. As an aside, what a completely pointless and trivial barrier this is—the Mini PCIe standard (and moreover WiFi notebook cards themselves with U.FL connectors) are designed to be completely and absolutely interchangeable. The notion that this provides any added security (when the adjacent slot is completely unguarded) or—even more absurd, convenience—is nothing short of a surrealist notion."
Lenovo isn't the only one. HP also does the exact same thing; they whitelist cards in the BIOS, so that only their branded version of Intel's (or Broadcom's) wireless cards work.
I don't think security has anything to do with it. I think two factors are involved --1) that they don't want to support any other wireless cards than their own, and 2) that they want you to buy from them, establishing vendor lock-in. Reply
Dug - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkThere are also modified BIOS' out there that disable the whitelist which is a lot easier than trying to tape a small pin.
If the laptop has a 2nd pci slot, which is usually reserved for wlan card, you can use this for the wireless card becuase the BIOS doesn't look at that slot. Reply
Dug - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkI wish they would allow some type of iTunes server on the Time Capsule. Then I could stream to everything else such as my Apple TV's without having a computer on. Reply
tsanga - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkBrian,
When you took apart your older Airport Extreme, did you notice if the antennas might have been improperly connected? Swapping antenna hookups could result in better 2.4 GHz performance:
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wireless/wireless-f... Reply
Brian Klug - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkI'm not entirely sold on that smallnetbuilder conclusion from a long time ago, to say the absolute least. I suspect the swappage they experienced could be explained in other ways. Everything appears to match the way it should be assembled in the present state.
-Brian Reply
CharonPDX - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkI have both a first-generation "square" AirPort Express-n (10/100 Ethernet) and a second generation (that added Gigabit,) both of which are single-band-at-a-time only. (i.e. I have to choose between 2.4 or 5 GHz for my whole network, no mixing.)
When using either one as the 'primary', if I use my maximum bandwidth and/or lots of open connections (I seed Torrents of Debian install images for alternate architectures, I swear!) it will lock up my internet connection every so often. I know it's not my cable modem or the cable company, because if I direct-connect my server, I have no problems. But through either AirPort, every half hour or so of heavy use, my internet will stall until I reboot the base station.
Have you performed any such testing? I haven't read any complaints about newer generation ones, but want to make sure. Reply
Brian Klug - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkYou're using the device as a router in that configuration? I haven't heard of any such problems on the newer Gen 4 or 5, and I beat on mine pretty hard too and haven't seen it stall/hang.
-Brian Reply
weiran - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkI have the original N Airport Extreme (100Mb) and I don't suffer the issue you have. I did have problems with using Time Machine with an attached disk over WiFi causing router lockups, I've since disabled it and the AE runs weeks without issues. Reply
davolfman - Monday, August 08, 2011 - linkIt's nice to see somebody using the Sheeva SOC's in a shipping product. Too bad the RAM and Flash is so low or it would make a tempting (better designed) Sheevaplug replacement. Reply
bbarrera - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkGreat article, however please change "AFS" (whatever that is) to AFP. Reply
blueeyesm - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkI use the "n" Express with a D-Link wireless router and I've had no issues via WDS. It connected and maintained a strong signal through two floors of a house, and through two walls (one of which was a fire-rated wall) of an apartment. Reply
pcworth - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkI was wondering if there are any differences in connection reliability and WIFI speed continuity. I have a Gen4 Extreme that was purchased in February and it seems like I have recently started to get slowdowns on the internal network that are corrected by resetting the unit using the Airport Software.
I originally owned the b/g spaceship and a b/g express, but when we bought our iPads in April 2010 we noticed that the airport station would stop connecting until the units were restarted. We tried working around this using power timers to restart the units, but in the end we gave up and bought a new Gen4 extreme. This problem has now stopped.
I have no idea whether the problem is a temporary glitch, a hardware problem, or my imagination. It does seem to affect the AppleTV most, which is at the opposite end of the house, because we find it sometimes takes a long time to start streaming from iTunes. When I go in and reset the unit, it seems to improve.
I was wondering if there are any measures of speed stability, and connection stability, to determine whether the Gen5 is more reliable than the Gen4 and worth thinking about for an upgrade?
Thanks! Reply
gman_wa - Tuesday, August 09, 2011 - linkI bought a 5th Extreme when they came out a couple weeks ago and returned it based on the Meraki Wi-Fi Stumber java-based browser app.
Maybe its my house, but with the 2nd gen and the 5th gen side by side, the 2nd gen signal strength was consistently ~5-10db stronger than the 5th ten. My 2nd gen runs the 2.4Ghz b/g/n network in the house and I wanted to replace this with something stronger and add the guest networking.
I didn't actually try to compare throughput via wired or wireless.
Maybe I got a dud? Or would the single radio on the 2nd gen model outperform the dual radio models?
Thoughts? Reply
applesandsynths - Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - linkHey guys,
I just had a quick question for anyone who may have a new 5th generation Airport Extreme. Can you tell me if the power rating numbers on the AC adapter are:
Input AC 100-200v 50-60Hz 0.5A Output: 12V 1.8A Model: A1202?
I know that these are the numbers from an older adapter but was just wondering if the new adapters are any different?
Thanks! Reply
jackwong - Sunday, August 14, 2011 - linkI have the 4th and 5th.
They are both 1A instead of 0.5A and the model is 20BB A. Reply
Lebannen - Wednesday, August 10, 2011 - linkOne thing I'm very interested in with regards to the Airport Extreme is noise. When connected to Airport Extremes (4th gen) over 5GHz, I can hear a reasonably loud noise when data transfer is occurring - elsewhere on the net I've heard it described as screeching and sizzling. I'm aware that it's all solid state so can only speculate that it's switching noise.
It only occurs with 5GHz transfers, not with 2.4GHz, which *might* make it something to with the antenna configuration? If so, it may not have changed, but I'd be glad to hear either way - thanks :) Reply
tichi - Thursday, August 11, 2011 - linkJust wondering if two other features (not mentioned in the article) are supported in the new version of Airport Extreme :
1) Can you clone mac address for those of us not using DSL?
2) Can you still throttle the power output of the antenna?
Thanks Reply
layman2 - Sunday, August 14, 2011 - linkIt would be great if it had wireless internet i.e it gets internet over 3G or cDma networks and share it through wi-fi with other devices Reply
Death666Angel - Monday, August 15, 2011 - linkHey guys!
Really good article.
I was wondering if you will be testing other 450mbps routers, too? You mentioned The Linksys E4200. What about the TRENDnet TEW-692GR which costs 20-30€ less than the Apple and about 5€ less than the Linksys, but seems to support both 2.4GHz and 5GHz with 450mbps simultaneously.
Also, I have only found one WiFi adapter for 450mpbs for desktop PCs and that is a USB one called TRENDnet TEW-684UB. I have not found any PCI/PCIE cards that support 450mbps for the desktop. Is there any way to use mini-PCIE cards like the Intel 6300 in a desktop PC? Would it make sense to use a 450mbps access point as my WiFi card via ethernet?
I would like to upgrade my WiFi system in order to stream HD content from my future file server to my media PC in my living room. My wife would kill me if I laid any cables for ethernet, so WiFi is the only way in this situation. I somehow feel like the higher WiFi offers are still very experimental. It's difficult to find decent reviews who test the products not just write down the specs. Reply
Matt Campbell - Tuesday, August 16, 2011 - linkVery nice, especially the FCC listings and teardown. The one thing I would have liked to see is how the internal drive speed compared to a NAS system like the My Book Live, Go Flex or other home NAS system, which would bypass the slow USB connection. I bought a 2 TB unit yesterday and am still reserving judgment vs. a router/NAS setup. Reply
Amia - Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - linkI saw this review and bought TC 2T but file transfer speed from TC to PC via GigE is no where near 80mbps,actually less than 40. Wonder how this test has been done ( Reply
Amia - Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - linkUnder 5g my Mac air is getting 270mbps but my another laptop which used to get 300mbps using my previous router can only have 150mbps. Maybe just like Mac air apple doesn't want you to use dual band (40mhz) under 2.4ghz Reply
MobiusStrip - Wednesday, August 17, 2011 - linkIt would be nice to see a comparison of Airport with other brands of wireless routers. Reply
Flachr - Friday, August 19, 2011 - linkI noticed that the 5g Extreme's country field in the airport utiliy is limited to very few countries while all my previous TC's had a long list of countries to choose from.
Is Apple now tailoring devices to regions? Is there a way to get the longer list of countries back to select from? Reply
IdBuRnS - Monday, August 22, 2011 - linkI have been using my Airport Extreme (MD031LL/A) for about a week and a half now and I'm loving it. It replaced an old Netgear G router so it's like night and day between the two when it comes to streaming wirelessly.
Since I have FiOS I only use it as an AP (FiOS router is in my wiring closet in my garage which puts it out of range for all my devices) but so far I couldn't be happier. Reply
Jack iCaseReview - Friday, August 26, 2011 - linkI don't think the AirportExtreme will ever be a good solution for massive network backups. For small backups it great, but anything too big, and it somewhat slow....
editor - www.iCaseReview.com Reply
MarsMSJ - Sunday, September 04, 2011 - linkI had bought an E4200 to replace a WRT310N that started acting up (going unresponsive.) I had issues where I would get abysmal download speeds on wired. I moved my cable modem to as few splits as possible and that resolved most of the issue (though I argue that my speeds were fast for a year until 2-3 weeks ago and the split had nothing to do with it. Now I get 8-12 where as I had 12-15 for though it's better then the .5 I was getting.)
Anyway I noticed right away that when connecting the E4200 my speeds are cut by a 1/2 in comparison to connecting directly to the modem. I upgraded to the latest firmware which not only did not fixed the issue, but broke other features of this router (media server does not work among other things.) Cisco is testing new firmware that won't be available until the end of September if everything goes well.
I found this out because I got an the new Airport Extreme Gen 5 for my side of the house recently. I got curious and switched out the new AE and saw that my speeds were as fast as connected directly to the modem. I spent my Saturday night testing these both by themselves and my notebook and confirmed the E4200 is cutting internet speeds in half. When I hooked everything up the speeds were similar to when I was the only device connected to it.
Right now I have the AE Gen 5 connected to the modem on the other side of the house while the old WRT310 is on my side with my devices wired in (no wireless on my side for the moment.) Wired into the WRT310 which is wired to the AE Gen 5 (we have a 100 foot cable that runs outside along the roof) and using speedtest.net (used them and the same server for all testing) I get 7-9 Mbps compared to the 2-4 on the E4200.
Something is definitely wrong and luckily I got the E4200 at Best Buy on sale (130USD though it's back up to 180) and they have a 45 day return policy for Reward Zone Silver members (Dad bought a mac book pro from them thus spent enough to qualify.) I will be returning it and maybe getting another AE Gen 5 or just waiting it out to see if the new firmware fixes the E4200 download/upload speed issue. (I can live without wireless in my room for month.) If you're debating, now is not the time to buy an E4200. Reply
milan03 - Saturday, September 17, 2011 - linkYou can totally share a printer using Airport Express. I've been doing it since the 4th Gen. Reply
tekenaar - Monday, October 24, 2011 - link. . . is: "At this point it isn't really looking like there's much different, but exterior appearances can be deceptive."
. . . S/B: "At this point it isn't really looking like there's much difference, but exterior appearances can be deceptive." ?! Reply
silvalli - Monday, October 24, 2011 - linkCan't find discussion of this anywhere. Reply
spaztec - Friday, December 23, 2011 - linkNoticing a fizzing sound coming from my unit during wireless data transfer - any techs here with insight as to which exact component is causing it? I'd check myself, but voiding the warranty for curiosity's sake sounds like a bad idea. Reply


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