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AMD's Radeon HD 5850: The Other Shoe Dropsby Ryan Smith on 9/30/2009 12:00 AM EST
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- GPUs
95 Comments
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merin - Monday, October 12, 2009 - linkAny idea what producer I should choose if I'm getting a 5850?
Is there even any difference between them? Reply
ambientmf - Sunday, December 06, 2009 - linkAt this point, I doubt there's much difference between vendors. Since the card is still relatively new and supply still low, I would think most vendors are sticking to the reference design.
Warranties and support aside, they're all identical.
I'd investigate the warranties offered, any trade-up programs (not that they'll be much to trade up from but still good to know) and any info like that. Reply
hsew - Sunday, October 11, 2009 - linkI find it rather peculiar that even though Crysis Warhead runs better on ATI single GPUs (4890 faster than GTX275, 4870 faster than GTX260, 4850 almost as fast as GTX 260) it scales well enough in SLI to take the performance lead from ATI, as shown by the 5850 CF losing to GTX285 SLI (SLI scaling almost 100%!!). It makes one wonder just what the heck all the hype is about ATI releasing a new driver once a month if they don't seem to do make much of a difference in the performance department. Reply
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cosminliteanu - Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - link
Thanks for this kind of article, I would also to see some Fallout 3
Thank you ,again :)
bhougha10 - Monday, October 05, 2009 - linksorry the f-bomb quote was in the previous artical. But kinda adds to the point. Please no silly fan boy comments as I have stock in amd and nvidia :) (ya, in know probably silly to have stock in these two companies) Reply
bhougha10 - Monday, October 05, 2009 - linkProbably get locked out of the site for saying this. But it seems like there is always an agression toward NVIDIA. Kinda like ATI gives free samples and NVIDIA does not, or not in a timely manner. I mean why would an F-Bomb be quoted on a professional site. It's not just this one statement and not just this one artical that makes me wonder.
otherwise, as usual, great artical, with great content. Reply
Malachite - Monday, October 05, 2009 - linkI wish you guys would put together Company of Heroes, World in Conflict and Supreme Commander so we could see clearly the differences between the cards. Today we see only reviews based on FPS, I like FPS, but my main games are all RTS.... I bought the HD4890 based on reviews but it didnt run as good as my GTX 275 for RTS titles.... Reply
merin - Monday, October 05, 2009 - linkI'm wondering what the text that says "Floor @ 40.6dB" on the noise diagram means. Is it the background noise or something?
I'm wondering if it can compete with the Sapphire HD4890 Vapor-X in the noise-department...
"The dual slot Vapor-Chamber Cooler has a noise level under 20 dbA in 2D operation and is still under 30 dbA in 3D operation before it reaches 85 degrees Celsius." ( http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1056/1/">http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1056/1/ ) Reply
Pastuch - Monday, October 05, 2009 - linkFrom what I've heard at other sites the Vapor-x 4890 is significantly quieter than the ATI cooler on the 5850. Thats not a knock on the 5850, it's just that the Vapor-x cooler on the 4890 is dead quiet. I love mine. It even has HDMI, VGA, Displayport and DVI on the back of the card! Reply
merin - Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - linkThanks Pastuch :)
I'm in the process of getting a new graphics card, and I'm trying to find the most silent one that doesn't nerf performance from the top cards that much. The 3 cards that I'm considering is:
This 5850 from ATI (probably Sapphire or Asus)
Sapphire HD4890 Vapor-X
MSI N275GTX Twin Frozr OC
Any advice? Reply
Pastuch - Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - linkI was looking at the the exact same cards. Both the Twin Forzr GTX275 and the Radeon 4890 vapor-x are VERY QUIET. I would pick based on which games you play. If you have a home theater and audio passthrough is a concern I would lean towards the ATI card. Both of them come pre-overclocked and both have stellar performance. The Twin Frozr is slightly longer in length; however it's power connectors face up (Not out the back of the card like usual). Reply
Ryan Smith - Monday, October 05, 2009 - linkYes. That's the noise of our test rig that we measure at idle when using an entirely passive video card; we can get our rigs down to about 36dB, but that requires removing all the fans other than the CPU fan. Bear in mind that a dead quiet room is 30dB and that we're measuring roughly 6" away from the card, so our methodology may differ from how other people do it. Reply
merin - Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - linkThank you Ryan!
So what do you think is the most silent? This 5850 with a reference cooler or the 4890 vapor-x? I find them very hard to compare because of different methodology...
Right now, they only thing in my case that is making noise is the fan on my old 8800GTS, and I'd like my new card to make it completely silent if possible. Reply
Ryan Smith - Tuesday, October 06, 2009 - linkSince we haven't tested the Vapor-X, I have no way of knowing. Reply
MamiyaOtaru - Friday, October 02, 2009 - link260 core 216 is using more power yet running cooler with a quieter fan.. would love to see a 5850 with a more efficient cooler Reply
AnnonymousCoward - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkDisplayPort 1.1 vs 1.2 is the difference between PCIe 1.0 vs 2.0. The bandwidth is doubled. Please start stating the version. Reply
coconutboy - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkI didn't read all the comments yet so perhaps this has been mentioned, but where are all the 5850 Xfire results? Hopefully the Crossfire benches weren't done exclusively at 2560x1600? From some of Ryan's text in the article, it seems there were Crossfire results that are accidently missing or got pulled. Stuff like this quote from the Battleforge page 6 text:
The 5850 Crossfire on the other hand loses once again to the GTX 285 SLI in spite of beating the GTX 285 in a single card matchup.
Yet there are no Xfire results on any of the Battleforge graphs. Hopefully they'll be added later. In the meantime guru3d and HardOCP have Xfire results for those interested. Reply
coconutboy - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkHad a chance to go through all the comments now, seems TheOne pointed out the same thing on page 6 of the comments and Ryan attempted to fix it. The fix still ain't showing up in my browser though. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkIt's really fixed this time. I had two sets of graphs, one with the CF/SLI cards and one without. I put up the wrong one. Reply
Seramics - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkHD5800 series is bandwidth limited. The 5850 being less severe than 5870. 5850 has about 77% computing power and about 83% of memory bandwidth of 5870. So normally, 5850 should perform about 77% as fast as 5870 but it wasnt the case here. If you calculate all the benchmarks performance at all resolution, its surprisingly consistent, 5850 is always around 82-85% performance of 5870. Never did it drop to below 80% performance level, let alone coming close to 77% which is where it should be. Different game has different bandwidth requirement and there's fluctuation in percentage improvement from 4800 series to 5800 series. It unstable but 5870 for eg rarely doubles 4870, let alone 4890. So in the end, its not parallelization or scaling problems, nor was it geometry or vertex limitation (possible but less likely), it is indeed the 5800 series being limited in performance due to restricted memory bandwidth. Those of you who has 5800 cards, overclock the memory and check the scaling and you'll see wht i mean. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkOverclocking the RAM is one idea, adding more RAM is another, however it remains to be seen whether ATI will introduce a wider bus for any higher spec models.
The situation is a little different to the 4830 - 4850 comparison whereby the 4830 had slightly lower clocks but only 640 SPs enabled instead of the full 800, however in the end the performance difference wasn't very large so the lack of shaders didn't cripple the 4830 too much. Reply
Jamahl - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkI'm not convinced about that, many games run on 3 30" lcd's with no issues.
More likely is the games aren't pushing the cards to their maximums, that is why you aren't getting the full effect. We will find out for sure when the 2gb version is released. Reply
Seramics - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkIf u cant see it thats ur problem, to say games arent pushing it is noobish, 1gb is still plentiful for today's games, memory buffer was nv an issue as long as its 1gb. well in the end u will see faster ram outperforming ur 2gb version. Very amazing to see many people still cant figure out the main reasons of 5870's underperformance.
It is still a decent card and offer many features and definitely a better performance to price ratio card than GTX 285. But it is underperforming. Not living up to its nex gen architecture prowess. Unless GT300 screw up, it can easily outperform 5870 when its out. If AMD came out quickly with 5890, they will be wise to significantly bump up the GDDR5 speed as it is unlikely they will go with higher than 256bit design due to their "sweet spot" small die strategy. Reply
Jamahl - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkWait...you really think that you have it figured and ATI didn't realise it? You truly believe that ATI would lower the performance of the card instead of just strapping on a 384 bus?
No. Any bandwidth issues only exist in your head. Didn't you say that different games have different bandwith requirements? Reply
Jamahl - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkAny ideas what is going on here with that? Reply
loverboy - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkI would really love to know how these games run with this added xtra.
One of my main reasons for upgrading would be to play WOW on three screens (most likely in window mode).
Would it be possible to add this benchmark in the future, with the most obvious config being 3 screens in 2560/1920/1680
yolt - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI'm looking to pick one of these up relatively quickly. My question is there really a difference in which vendor I purchase from (HIS, Powercolor, Diamond, XFX, etc). I know many offer varying warranties, but if they offer the same clock speeds, what else is there? I guess I'm looking for the most reputable brand since I won't be waiting for too many specific reviews before purchasing one. Any help is appreciated. Reply
ThePooBurner - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkWhere and under what conditions/server load do you test the frame rate in WoW? I've played for years and with my 4850 i can get 100fps in the game if i am in the right spot when no one else is in the zone. Knowing when and where you do you frame rate tests for WoW would help to put it into context. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkThis is from Anand:
"...our test isn't representative of worst case performance - it uses a very, very light server load, unfortunately in my testing I found it nearly impossible to get a repeatable worst case test scenario while testing multiple graphics cards.
I've also found that frame rate on WoW is actually more a function of server load than GPU load, it doesn't have to do with the number of people on the screen, rather the number of people on the server :)
What our test does is simply measures which GPU (or CPU) is going to be best for WoW performance. The overall performance in the game is going to be determined by a number of factors and when it comes to WoW, server load is a huge component." Reply
ThePooBurner - Wednesday, October 07, 2009 - linkA good repeatable test would be to have a RAID group in an instance and have them all cast a set of spells at once. the instance server separates from the rest of the server load and allows for a bit better testing. While it's true that the game is generally more CPU/RAM limited than GPU limited, especially if you have a lot of add-ons doing post processing on all the information that is shooting around. However, having been in raids with and without add-ons and such, i can tell you that i can get 45-50fps when we are just standing there waiting to attack, and then as soon as the spell effects start going off my frame rate drops like a rock. The spell effects are particle effects that overlap and mix and are all transparent to one degree or another. All those effects going off on a single target creates a lot of overlap that the GPU has to sort out in order to render correctly.
What you might try is to see if you can get Blizz to put a target dummy in an instance to isolate it from the rest of the masses, and allow for sustained testing with spell effects going off in a predictable manner. (not having every testing go balls to the wall, but simply repeat a set rotation in a timed manner so that you can get an accurate gauge. Reply
Per Hansson - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkI second your question
And also just want to say that with a very heavily volt modded and overclocked 8800GTS 512MB the performance in WoW at maximum settings with 2xAA will totally kill my card
For example in heavily populated areas it will use more than 512MB video ram (confirmed using rivatuner)
And in heavily populated areas I get like 20FPS, for example in Dalaran at peak hours (like, when I play :P)
The numbers you provide for WoW are welcome, very few sites do these tests
But more realistic numbers would be nice, representing what a big guild would see in a 20 or 40 man RAID...
Perhaps you could setup a more realistic test with private servers, or if you are unwilling to go that route ask Blizzard if they could setup a testserver for you to use so you can get reproducible tests? Reply
biigfoot - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI can't wait till we find out if those extra SIMD engines can be unlocked like the good ol' ati2mtag softmod for the 9500 -> 9700 :) Even if not, this looks like the card for my new HTPC :) Reply
The0ne - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkThe charts are a bit confusing. My main focus is at the 2560x1600 and the review references 5850 CF and 285 CF but they are not to be found in any of the charts. Same for 285 SLI
"With and without ambient occlusion, the 5850 comes in right where we expect it. The 5850 Crossfire on the other hand loses once again to the GTX 285 SLI in spite of beating the GTX 285 in a single card matchup."
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkWhoops. The full 2560 w/o SSAO chart went AWOL. Fixed. Reply
giantpandaman2 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkShould be heels, not heals. Unless you're referring to some MMORPG priest. :) Reply
KeithP - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI understand you want a consistent platform to test all the video cards, but is there any possibility of testing the 5850 on a more realistic platform?
Maybe something like a dual core 2.8GHz machine? I have to think the bulk of the potential buyers for this card won't have a machine anywhere near as powerful as the one you are testing on.
-KeithP Reply
v1001 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI wonder if we'll see a single slot card. I think this is the card for me to get. I need a lower watt single slot card to work in my tiny case. Reply
RDaneel - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkRyan, I know it's not the focus of this article, but it would be great to get a small paragraph (or a blog post or whatever) on what ATI has said in reference to the lower-spec 40nm DX11 parts. I simply don't need 4850 power in a SOHO-box, but the low 40nm idle power consumption and DX11 future-proofing are tempting me away from a 4870/90 card. What kind of prices and performance scaling are we likely to see before the end of 2009? Thanks for any info! Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkWe covered this as much as we can in our 5870 article. If it's not there, it's either not something we know, or not something we can comment on.
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3643...">http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3643... Reply
MadMan007 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkShould have done HAWX in DX 10.1 mode then the HD5850 > GTX 285 sweep would have been complete. Or to flip it around, enable PhysX (lol) on some games. Reply
MadMan007 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI have to point this out because it's something I've now seen on two websites and it irks me a little bit just like 'solid state capacitors' does. In the last sentence on page one the plural of die in this case is dies not dice. Someone didn't edit this carefully! Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkIf you search our archives, Anand has discussed this in depth. It's dice. Reply
papapapapapapapababy - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkbtw, this card is powerless against "the way is meant to be played"
nvidia keeps bribing developers left and right, ATI does nothing
(except boring sideshow penis wars), meanwhile the poor ATI users cant seem to play NFS SHIFT 640 x 480, all set to low, ( my -rebranded- 9800 does it great btw) + there is no in-game selective AA available to any ATI Radeon user in Batman, (another TWIMTBP game) + it looks like empty crap with all the shit nvidia - removed ( yes, really no smoke? no papers? no flags? not even static flags? what about GRAW? it used to work fine on reg cpus...) Reply
papapapapapapapababy - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - link
my "prototype" RV740 @ AC-S1 is better...
Core Clock: 875
Idle temp: 29C
Noise: 0db
+ it doesn't look like the 60's Batmobile
AnnonymousCoward - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkWhat, like this one?
http://student.dcu.ie/~lawlesc4/Batmobile%20%28TV%...">http://student.dcu.ie/~lawlesc4/Batmobile%20%28TV%... Reply
ipay - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkExcept it doesn't hav DX11, so it's not better. Go troll somewhere else. Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI suppose we probably have to wait for the consumer driver release to know for sure, but how is the stability of these? The only two AMD cards I have direct experience with have both had driver issues, so that is the one factor that would keep me from considering one of the lower-powered versions of this architecture once they are released. Reply
Jamahl - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkIt is you who had the issue not the drivers. That is why millions of others have ati's without driver issues. Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkYeah, I definitely think closing my laptop lid and expecting it to have the same resolution set when I reopen is my fault *rolls eyes*. Reply
Mills - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkAMD's graphics forums and the number of bugfixes and known issues posted for each driver release say otherwise.
NVIDIA is not doing so well lately with their drivers either though, especially where Vista/7 is concerned.
Both companies can't seem to get proper fixed aspect ratio GPU scaling working in Vista/7. This has been broken since Forceware 169.04, and my friend tells me broken in a recent Catalyst release. What the hell is going on? Reply
michal1980 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI remeber a few years back when Green was on top and Red was dieing. Looks like tables have turned.
For the gamer/consumer, IMHO its a win-win.
My new PC next year, just might have an AMD card. I could care less about brand loyality. I buy what ever gives me the most bang for buck at the time I build. Reply
Lavacon - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI would love to see this card added to the X58 vs P55 GPU article from yesterday. Although I suspect the results would be much the same. Reply
vailr - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkPlease consider adding a Radeon 4770 card to your comparison chart. I believe it's also "TSMC 40nm". Reply
chizow - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkInstead of just marginally reducing performance by dropping clockspeeds and available bandwidth, they artificially neutered their parts by cutting out a few SIMD clusters similar to Nvidia's MO of cutting TPC units.
Your conclusion doesn't seem to draw this parallel, that the cut SIMD probably don't factor much into the overall performance because 1580 or whatever is left is enough and the full 1600 aren't being fully utilized in most games today. So instead the 5850 scales more closely to the 15% decrease in clockspeeds compared to the combined 23% for clockspeeds and SIMD units.
The 5870 soft launch followed by today's 5850 paper launch also says quite a bit about 40nm yields in light of their artificial die neutering approach. Reports of AMD shipping *FOUR* 5870 for every *ONE* 5850 for a 4:1 ratio indicates 40nm yields are quite good. Given the high demand and apparently inadquate supply, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for AMD to ship these perfectly capable die for a $100 discount when they can sell them for that much more on the 5870. Reply
chrone - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkwith beta driver, it can beat nvidia fastest single gpu single card, this card would be an awesome at some moment in the future without breaking the bank for its cost and power consumption.
i'm falling in love with this new babe already. :D
Razer2911 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI think the current beta drivers are holding the performance of these cards and it can improve by another 10-15%. Maybe ATI is holding it back just in case nVidia brings in some surprise (really doubt it).
Strangely the temps mentioned for both the cards are inconsistent with other reviews on the web with Anandtech's being the lowest. Maybe it would be better to post ambient-to-idle/load temps in all your reviews. Reply
LeadSled - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkNvidia's tech is soon to be so out dated that they will not be a deal at any price. They cannot even do all DX10 spec let alone any DX11 which I do believe ATI has been able to do some DX11 functions since the X1900. I hope Nvidia gets their act together and survives but unlike when 3D was new and Nvidia pushed new tech envolpe they are have been holding progress to a stand still. Nvidia should put up and play the game or get out of the game and make PhysX cards.
I do hope they create a 5850X2. These new RV870 gpu's look like they will work well in a 2GB version. Ive heard the 5870X2 will be a 4GB card, lets just hope. I know I would pay $600-$700 for that baby without a thought. Reply
TA152H - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI am with you, I think NVIDIA needs to go out of business. I think they will.
They are at a huge disadvantage without a CPU. Intel is moving CPU/GPU soon, and AMD had this planned for a long time. With Intel already precluding NVIDIA from making chipsets for Nehalem based computers, and ATI making far better GPUs, NVIDIA is running on momentum now, and that runs out over time.
NVIDIA might shirk Intel and make a chipset for Nehalem. While most us wouldn't even consider a crappy NVIDIA chipset, the general market has no idea how problematic they are. They buy from HP and Dell, and they use NVIDIA. I am surprised at how many of these that I see, so it's a good business for NVIDIA.
Right now, the Lynnfield is essentially irrelevant, and the Bloomfield is a niche product. Neither are particularly important products as far as the market is concerned, so NVIDIA isn't really paying a price. Core 2 is still the most attractive platform for mainstream America, or an AMD platform. Clarkdale, with all its flaws, should sell especially well, and even if NVIDIA does decide they want to make a chipset, it won't sell. No one who knows much about computers will buy an NVIDIA chipset, so they sell mainly through HP and Dell, or similar companies. HP and Dell are not going to want to pay extra for an NVIDIA GPU, since the processor comes with one, and really it's only the southbridge that's up for grabs now. This would make a much smaller contribution to their bottom line. It's all bad for them.
Yes, they can sell into the Bloomfield space, if they come up with a good discrete card. But, how big is this market? Lynnfield should be even smaller, being brain-damaged and second-best, but, not particularly cheap like the Clarksdale. Also, it's unlikely someone will want a high priced video card, or two, and pair it with anything but the best platform.
So, where does NVIDIA sell into? Core 2 will go away, Bloomfield and Lynnfield will have relatively small market shares, and Clarksdale should sell especially well in the markets where NVIDIA chipsets sell well now.
Anand said the Clarksdale was the replacement for the Conroe, which caught a lot of FlAK, because he worded it poorly. But, in a way, he's right with respect to the Clarksdale replacing the Core 2 as the platform for the mainstream market. In this respect, the Clarksdale is better in almost all respects. It's dual core, but runs four threads. Sure, they put the MMU in the wrong place, but it's still better than being outside the processor, and the GPU is better than the G45. On top of this, it should be cheaper. Core 2 duals, with Pentiums, etc..., sell the best, still. Clarksdale is better, and should be cheaper, so it's going to dominate the market in the same way. Bloomfield is king of performance, and will have a place. It's not a big one though. Lynnfield is a good combination of power and decent performance. It's also not a big space, although the i5 750 might do well and shouldn't be discounted. The big space will be the Clarksdale. NVIDIA is going to be hurt by it. Hopefully, fatally. Reply
Pastuch - Monday, October 05, 2009 - linkI disagree with you on ALL points. I buy 2 videocards per year and I own an almost equal number of ATI/Nvidia cards. I just bought a 4890 and next will be a 5850.
Nvidia should definitely NOT go out of business. Competition drives creativity and reduces prices for consumers. I would hardly say Nvidia is doing badly at the moment. The bulk of aftermarket videocards still come from Nvidia. They are still ahead of ATI in marketshare. They are also a marketing juggernaught; "The Way its Meant to be Played" is a very powerful marketing tool. That being said I expect a firm advantage for ATI over the next six months.
I have owned several Nvidia chipset motherboards and they have all been exceptionally reliable and great overclockers. I've never had driver issues with them. I find Clarksdale underwhelming. G45 didn't live up to all its promises (Bitstreaming) and I seriously doubt that it's successor will either. G45 has the least features and customizability of any onboard solution I have used yet. Intel has a long way to go on integrated video if they ever want to capture the enthusiast market.
ATI has been doing a stellar job lately. The 5850 is every hometheater guys dream. Inexpensive, Bitstreaming HD content and it will fit in most HTPC cases. The latest GTX cards and the 5870 are too long. Videocards should be less than 10 inches long! Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linknVidia shouldn't "get out of the game" at all. True, ATI may just have 3 or 4 months of technical superiority, but nVidia's next cards may be superior as well as offering plenty of revolutionary features.
nVidia can also chop prices for their current lineup but not too much, otherwise they may undercut their new cards.
I'm impressed by the 5850's frugal (as compared to the 5870) power requirements. Coupled with a relatively low price, it should sell very nicely indeed (and spawn some overclocked versions very quickly). Reply
SJD - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkDid you have the August DirectX Redist installed on your test system? I think I've read somewhere that this is the update that brings 'full' DirectX11 functionality to Windows 7, and perhaps this is the reason you didn't see the results you were expecting.
Otherwise, awesome card! Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkBased on AMD's internal data I suspect it's just the fact that we have everything cranked up. We're taking a look at it ASAP. Reply
Totally - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkRyan, could you retest the 5870 again but this time with a piece of tape running across the two 'vents' on the back of the card. Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI'm curious what makes you think that will have any impact. Reply
Totally - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkwell, since it's a centrifugal fan, it sucks air through the center and exhausts it in a radial direction, being the shroud's job to redirect the air afterwards. now looking at how restricted the openings appear on the 5850 and the cooling performance. I'm curious if there is connection, say fresh air may be escaping through those openings and back into the case instead of passing through the heatsink and out the back of the case. Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI don't have a good front-shot, but it's a sealed shroud. There's no air escaping. Reply
toast70 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkWith 5870 being basically a doubled up 4870 architecture and (still SIMD), i am interested to see how Nvidia's new MIMD architecture will compete, especially with the ridiculous memory bandwidth it will have with GDDR5 and a 512 bit bus.(if the 512 bus isnt just a rumor and hopefully they are not plagued by driver issues) I am glad AMD/ATI is doing better the competition is great, but i feel the new NV cards are going to be good (least if any of the rumors are true). I am still trying to find a reason to replace my 9800GTX SLI, they burn thru about any game as long as you stay away from over 4X AA due to the 512 MB frame buffer.
BTW, Not a NV fanboi here, hope i dont sound like one, its late and i just dropped my friend off at the ER, brain is tired. the fiancee's PC has a ATI card and its great, no complaints other than a few driver issues, but nothing i could complain about really. HD4850 512MB
keep up the competition, we have AMD to thank for under 400 fast cards Reply
poohbear - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkvery well done review and the conclusion was spot on! gonna get one of these this fall, Nvidia better hurry up b4 shiat really hits the fan.:0 Reply
Roland00 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI wonder how close the 5850 will be to the 5870 once they have similar memory speeds and thus bandiwidth. Are those extra shaders/core frequency wasted due to the limited memory bandiwidth. Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkAn excellent question! This isn't something we had a chance to put in the article, but I'm working on something else for later this week to take a look at exactly that. The 5850 gives us more of an ability to test that, since Overdrive isn't capped as low on a percentage basis. Reply
Zool - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkYou could make some raw shader tests that doesnt depend on memory bandwith to see if the gpu internal bandwith is somehow limited or the external bandwith. And maybe try out some older games(quake3 or 3dmark2001).
In DX11 games will use more shader power for other things which hawe litle impact on bandwith. Maybe they tested those heawy dx11 scenarios and ended with much less costly 256bit interface as a compromis. Reply
Dante80 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkUp to 80watts lower consumption in load
120$ less
Performance hit around 10-15% against 5870 (that means far better perf/watt and perf/$)
~12% More performance than GT285
Overclocks to 5870 perf easily
Ok, this is an absolute killer for the lower performance market segment. Its 4870vs4850 all over again. Only this time, they get the performance crown for single cards too.
Another thing to remember, is that nvidia does not currently have a countermeasure for this card. The GT380 will be priced for the enthusiast segment, and we can only hope for the architecture to be flexible enough to provide a 360 for the upper performance segment without killing profits due to diesize constraints. Things will get even more messy as soon as Juniper lands, the greens have to act now (thats our interest as consumers too)! And I don't think that GT200 respins will cut it. Reply
the zorro - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkmaybe if intel heavily overclocks a gma 4500 can can compete with amd? Reply
haplo602 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkhmm ... my next system shoudl feature a GTS 250. Unless ATI releases a 5670 and finaly hits opengl 3.2 and opencl support in their linux drivers.
anyway the 5850 will kill lot of Nvidia cards. Reply
san1s - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkinteresting results, can't wait to see how gt300 will compare Reply
palladium - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - link"interesting results, can't wait to see how gt300 will compare "
SiliconDoc: WTF?! 5870< GTX295, top end GT300>>295 because it has 384bit GDDR5 ( 5870 only 256 bit), so naturally GT300 will KICK RV8xx's A**!!!!
That's my prediction anyway (hopefully he decides not to troll here) Reply
Dobs - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkMy guess is - GT300 wont compare to 5850 or 5870.
It will compare with the 5870X2 and be in the price bracket. (Too much for most of us.)
When the GT300 eventually gets released that is.... Then a few months later again nvidia will bring out the scaled down versions in the same price brackets as the 5850/5870 that will probably compete pretty well.
Only question is - can you wait?
You could wait for the 6870 as well:P
Vinas - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkNo, I don't have to wait because I have a 5870 :-) Reply
The0ne - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI really think enthusiast that spends hundreds on the MB alone isn't the regular enthusiast. So price wouldn't be an issue. I love building PCs and testing them but I'm not going to spend $200+ of a MB knowing that I will be building another system in few months with better performance parts and pricing. Unless I'm really keeping the system for a long time then I'll pour my hard earn money into the high end parts. But then if you're doing this I don't think you're really an enthusiast as it's really a one shot deal? Reply
chizow - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkYa it already sounds like the 5870X2 and 5850X2 are being positioned in the media to compete with just a single GT300 with rumors of $500 price points. I think the combination of poor scaling compared to RV770/RV790 in addition to some of the 5850/5870 CF scaling problems seen in today's review are major contributing factors. Really makes you wonder how much of these scaling issues are driver problems, CPU/platform limitations, or RV870 design limitiations.
My best guess for GT300 pricing will be:
$500-$550 for a GTX 380 (full GT300 die) including OC variants
$380-$420 for a GTX 360 (cut down GT300) including OC variants
$250 and lower GTX 285 followed by GT210 40nm GT200 refresh with DX10.1
So you'd have the 5870X2 competing with GTX 380 in the $500-600 range. Maybe the 5850X2 in the $400-$500 range competing with the GTX 360. 5870 already looks poised for a price cut given X2 price leaks, maybe they introduce a 2GB part and keep it at the $380 range and drop the 1GB part. Then at some point I'd expect Nvidia to roll out their GT300 GX2 part as needed somewhere in the $650-700+ range..... Reply
yacoub - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkNah. They won't get enough sales at those prices. They need to slot in under $399 and $299 unless they put out 50% more performance than the 5870 and 5850 respectively.
Or the heck with them, I'll just wait six months for the refresh on a smaller die, better board layout with better cooling, lower power, and a better price tag.
It's not like i NEED DX11 now, and i certainly don't need more GPU performance than I already have. Reply
chizow - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkHow would it need to be 50% faster? It'd only need to be ~33% faster when comparing the GTX 380 to the 5870 or GTX 360 to the 5850. That would put the 5870 and 360 in direct competition in both price and performance, which is right on and similar to past market segments. The 380 would then be competing with the 5870X2 at the high-end, which would be just about right if the 5870X2 scales to ~30% over the 5870 similar to 5870CF performance in reviews. Reply
Gary Key - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - link"It's not like i NEED DX11 now, and i certainly don't need more GPU performance than I already have. "
As of today I am limping along on a GTX275 (LOL) and I really cannot tell any differences between the cards at 1920x1080. Considering the majority of PC games coming for the next year are console ports with a few DX10/11 highlights thrown in for marketing purposes, I am really wondering what is going to happen to the high-end GPU market. That said, I bought a 5850 anyway. ;) Reply
chizow - Thursday, October 01, 2009 - linkI'm running GTX 280 SLI right now and have found most modern games run extremely well with at least 4xTrMSAA enabled. But that's starting to change somewhat, especially once you throw in peripheral features like Ambient Occlusion, PhysX, Eyefinity, 3D Vision, 120Hz monitors or whatever else is next on the checkbox horizon.
While some people may think these features are useless, it only really takes 1 killer app to make what you thought was plenty good enough completely insufficient. For me right now, its Batman Arkham Asylum with PhysX. Parts of the game still crawl with AA + PhysX enabled.
Same for anyone looking at Eyefinity as a viable gaming option. Increasing GPU load three-fold is going to quickly eat into the 5850/5870's increase over last-gen parts to the point a single card isn't suitable.
And with Win7's launch and the rollout of DX11 and DirectCompute, we may finally start to see developers embrace GPU accelerated physics, which will again, raise the bar in terms of performance requirements.
There's no doubt the IHVs are looking at peripheral features to justify additional hardware costs, but I think the high-end GPU market will be safe at least through this round even without them. Maybe next round as some of these features take hold, they'll help justify the next round of high-end GPU. Reply
chrnochime - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkWith PC gaming seemingly going towards MMO like WoW/Aion/Warhammer (and later on Diablo 3) and far less emphasis on other genre(besides FPS, which is more or less the same every year), and as you said most new games being console ports, I really doubt we'll need anything more powerful than the 4890, let alone a 5850 or 5870 for the coming couple of years. Maybe we've enter the era where PC games will forever be just console ports + MMO, or just MMO, and there'd be little incentive to buy any card that cost 100+.
Just my take of course.
C'DaleRider - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI was told by a Microcenter employee the current pre-order retail price for the top end GT300 card was $579, an EVGA card, btw. And reportedly the next model down is the GT350. Dunno if this is fact or not, but he didn't have any reason to lie. Reply
Zool - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkThe GT300 will need 512bit gddr5 to make memory faster than GT200 and it will hawe even more masive GPGPU bloat than last gen. So in folding it will be surely much faster but in graphic it will cost much more for the same(at least for nvidia depending how close they want to bring it to radeon 5k). And of course they can sell the same gt300 in tesla cards for several thousand(like they did with gt200).
The 5850 price with disabled units is still win for ati or else they wouldnt sell the defect gpu at all. Reply
Genx87 - Friday, October 02, 2009 - linkGDDR5 provides double the bandwidth of CGDDR3. No need for 512bit memory bus. This was covered in another story on the front of this site. Reply
dagamer34 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkAs great as these cards are, my system only supports low-profile cards since it's a HTPC. Bring on the Radeon HD 5650 & 5670!!!! Reply
bigboxes - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkWell, you meant YOUR HTPC case. Not all HTPCs are limited to half-cards. Although, I thik that these fan blower cooling solutions are horrible for HTPC applications with their horrible whine. It may be awhile until aftermarket solutions are out for this new line. Reply
NA1NSXR - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - link...thats what he said. Reply
gigahertz20 - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkI'm surprised it performs so closely with the 5870 yet cooler running and doesn't demand so much from your power supply. I think this is my next card come Christmas time, unless Nvidia releases some details about their next generation GPU's along with expected prices before then.
I've read rumors that we will not see any Nvidia cards for sale until next year...ouch, but I'm betting they release before Christmas. Missing the holiday buying season would be a real stupid move for Nvidia. Reply
melgross - Wednesday, September 30, 2009 - linkIt isn't a matter of stupid. It's a matter of what they can do. If they can do it, we know they will, but if they can't, well, that's a problem. Reply
blanarahul - Wednesday, December 21, 2011 - linkThese younger brothers of the fastest parts are always great.
GTX 570, 470, 260, 8800 GTS all were superb value cards with high performance! Reply


text:
Ottawa) – The Royal Canadian Mounted Police in northern British Columbia has failed to protect indigenous women and girls from violence, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Women and girls Human Rights Watch interviewed also described abusive treatment by police officers, including excessive use of force, and physical and sexual assault.
The 89-page report, "Those Who Take Us Away: Abusive Policing and Failures in Protection of Indigenous Women and Girls in Northern British Columbia, Canada," [1] documents both ongoing police failures to protect indigenous women and girls in the north from violence and violent behavior by police officers against women and girls. Police failures and abuses add to longstanding tensions between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and indigenous communities in the region, Human Rights Watch said. The Canadian government should establish a national commission of inquiry into the murders and disappearances of indigenous women and girls, including the impact of police mistreatment on their vulnerability to violence in communities along Highway 16, which has come to be called northern British Columbia's "Highway of Tears."
"The threat of domestic and random violence on one side, and mistreatment by RCMP officers on the other, leaves indigenous women in a constant state of insecurity," said Meghan Rhoad, women's rights researcher at Human Rights Watch. "Where can they turn for help when the police are known to be unresponsive and, in some cases, abusive."
Human Rights Watch conducted research along Highway 97 and along the 724-kilometer stretch of Highway 16 that has become infamous for the dozens of women and girls who have been reported missing or were found dead in its vicinity since the late 1960s. In July and August 2012, Human Rights Watch researchers interviewed 50 indigenous women and girls, and conducted an additional 37 interviews with families of murdered and missing women, indigenous leaders, community service providers, and others across 10 communities.
Indigenous women and girls told Human Rights Watch that the RCMP has failed to protect them. They also described instances of abusive policing, including excessive use of force against girls, strip searches of women by male officers, and physical and sexual abuse. One woman said that in July, four police officers took her to a remote location, raped her, and threatened to kill her if she told anyone.
Women who call the police for help have been blamed for the abuse, shamed over alcohol or substance use, and have found themselves at risk of arrest for actions taken in self-defense, women and community service providers told Human Rights Watch.
"I will never forget that day," said "Lena G.," whose 15-year-old daughter's arm was broken by a police officer after the mother called the police for help during an argument between her daughter and her daughter's abusive boyfriend. "It's the worst thing I ever did. I wish I didn't call."
Despite policies requiring active investigation of all reports of missing persons, some family members and service providers who made calls to police to report missing women or girls said the police failed to investigate the disappearances promptly.
Women and girls have limited recourse when they experience police abuse or when police fail to provide adequate protection, Human Rights Watch said. They can lodge a complaint against the police with the Commission for Public Complaints. But the process is time consuming and the investigation of the complaint is likely to fall to the RCMP itself or to another police force.
Human Rights Watch researchers were struck by the fear expressed by women they interviewed. The women's reactions were comparable to those Human Rights Watch has found in post-conflict or post-transition countries, where security forces have played an integral role in government abuses and enforcement of authoritarian policies.
In September 2012, Human Rights Watch wrote to the RCMP to advise the national headquarters and the "E" Division in British Columbia of the results of the research and seek information about questions raised by the research. The RCMP responded in November. Human Rights Watch did not include details of specific incidents of abuse in the September 2012 letter because of victims' fears of retaliation if the officers they accused were able to identify them.
British Columbia's legislature recently established the Independent Investigations Office (IIO) to provide independent civilian "criminal investigations regarding police-related incidents involving death or serious harm." The law's definition of "serious harm" would exclude most cases of police rape and other forms of sexual assault, however, sending a strong message that assaults on women and girls are not important, Human Rights Watch said.
"The lack of a reliable, independent mechanism to investigate allegations of police misconduct is unfair to everyone involved," Rhoad said. "It is unfair to the officers who serve honorably. It is unfair to the northern communities that deserve to have confidence in their police forces. And it is especially unfair to the indigenous women and girls, whose safety is at stake."
United Nations human rights bodies have criticized Canada for the inadequate government response to violence against indigenous women and girls. The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women announced in December 2011 that it was opening an inquiry into missing and murdered indigenous women in Canada. In 2008, the committee called on the government "to examine the reasons for the failure to investigate the cases of missing and murdered aboriginal women and to take the necessary steps to remedy the deficiencies in the system."
The government of Canada has taken some steps to address the murders and disappearances, Human Rights Watch said, but the persistence of the violence indicates a need for a national public commission of inquiry.
"The high rate of violence against indigenous women and girls has caused widespread alarm for many years," Rhoad said. "The eyes of the world are on Canada to see how many more victims it takes before the government addresses this issue in a comprehensive and coordinated way."
(To read original article, visit this Human Rights Watch link [2])
[1] http://hrw.org/reports/2013/02/13/those-who-take-us-away-0
[2] http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/02/13/canada-abusive-policing-neglect-along-highway-tears
[3] http://www.nsvrc.org/news/news-field

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Seagate to Discontinue 7200rpm 2.5" Drives Later This Yearby Kristian Vättö on 3/1/2013 4:05 PM EST
- Posted in
- Storage
- SSDs
- Seagate
- Momentus XT
57 Comments
Back to Article
gregounech - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkThis is really bad, the gap between 5400rpm equipped laptops (low to mid-end) and SSD is just gonna be even bigger.
And 5400rpm is just terrible. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkNah... it's just Seagate. Hitachi and Western Digital are still doing 7200RPM. Still, the gap between 7200RPM and SSD is nearly as large as that from 5400RPM to SSD. A 7200RPM drive on it's own is only about 20% faster than a 5400RPM drive in certain metrics; in stress situations (e.g. random access), SSDs are over 100x faster than a conventional HDD. Reply
melgross - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkThat 20% is meaningful. And it comes much more cheaply, with much bigger drives. It's just not true that a 20-30Gb caching drive plus 5400 drive is all that close to a complete SSD solution.
There's a big gap in performance between the caching solution and a full sized SSD. I've tried all the combo's. so e people will still prefer a 1ter 7200 drive rather than a far more expensive, and much smaller SSD, or a combo. Reply
euler007 - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkWell the Micron M500's MSRP is 600$ for 1TB, so no matter what people say, it's not about IF these 2.5" hard drive will die out, it's when. Reply
jameskatt - Sunday, March 10, 2013 - linkI prefer Other World Computing's Mercury Electra 1 TB 2.5" SSD. But it still costs $1100.
The Hitachi Travelstar 1 TB 2.5" Hard Drive on the other hand costs only $115.
With WD 2.5" hard drives already at 2 TB, SSDs have a HUGE price and storage barrier to cross. In regard to when, it may not occur for the next 8 years. SSD prices aren't dropping that fast at all. Reply
euler007 - Friday, March 15, 2013 - linkI think 8 years is way off. The high-end market is over for HDD in two years and the low-end in four years. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkKinda reminds me of when Seagate said, "We are leaving the low-power green hard drive market!"
And then WD was like, "Yay, Red series for everyone! Screw you, Seagate! You want to leave money on the table, we shall collect all of it! ALL OF IT!"
Aren't all Raptors 2.5" with a spacer? Just seems like to me every direction WD takes, Seagate calls it Opposite Day and does the opposite instead. I'm not convinced that Seagate actually HAS a long term plan here. That's a shame because they'll just slowly phase out of relevance as time goes on.
You'd think they'd stop flirting and go on, buy OCZ, and get it over with. Everyone knows they were almost an item back in the day, then they got to quibbling over minutiae. Do they keep her dog? (Yes.) Do they keep his cats? (No.) Do they keep her scrapbooking room? (Yes.) Do they keep his media room (No.), garage with advanced building area (No.), or room dedicated to lifting weights (No.)?
Seagate, you know you always do what the woman wants. She makes the rules you live by and in return you get nookie every now and then. Maybe.
This is Seagate's future, whether they buy OCZ or buy out Intel's SSD business wing in the future. Reply
Alexvrb - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkI agree with most of what you said, but you're slightly wrong about the VelociRaptors. It's not just an adapter, it's a passive cooler (heatsink) as well. It's actually pretty important, these puppies get hot. Not that it matters, VR isn't laptop-friendly in heat or dimensions. It's thicker.
Anyway, one of the main reasons I would have considered a Momentus XT (I actually bought one for my last lappy) is that you're getting a significant upgrade not only because of the cache, but because most of the time when you're replacing an OEM laptop drive, it's packing a 5400RPM unit. So you get the fast cache, but you also get a huge improvement even on non-cached files. Reply
Golgatha - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkWait what?!
Velociraptors hardly get hot at all? I have one outside of the cradle mounted in a cramped HTPC, it's about 2°C higher than without the cradle, and still significantly lower temperature than a 3.5in HDD. The cradle (heatsink) is mainly for show. You are right about the height, it is 12mm instead of the standard 9.5mm. Something tells me they could engineer a 9.5mm 300GB, 10k rpm drive; it's just that with SSDs in the market there isn't any point in doing so.
Back OT. Intel's RST using a 32GB or 64GB SSD cache with a 2.5in large 5400rpm HDD will perform better than anything Seagate can engineer. Reply
cjl - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkThe bigger issue with putting a velociraptor in a notebook is the power requirement. It pulls massively more power than a notebook drive (though much less than most desktop drives), and it still requires a 12V supply line. Notebooks only supply 3.3 and 5V, so even if you could plug a velociraptor into a notebook, it wouldn't even spin up (due to the lack of a 12V supply from the notebook). Reply
SlyNine - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linklol does she take your balls to the board and give them back to you when you come home? Reply
CeriseCogburn - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkOverbearing sheballs driving shaftless fan, nookie maybe - rofl Reply
B3an - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkHow about reading the article next time.
Seagate will be making hybrid drives instead, like the Momentus XT. These are faster than 7200RPM HDD's which are still very slow compared to SSD's. So a hybrid will perfectly fill the gap between 5400RPM HDD's and SSD's. Reply
Alexvrb - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkExcept that Momentus XT *is* a 7200RPM drive and that's a big part of why it's faster than the 5400RPM drives it typically replaces. I know, I've owned one. The cache was great, but it wasn't enough by itself. Reply
Kilnk - Saturday, February 08, 2014 - linkYeah and please, tell me what happens with that data that's not on the 8GB (lol) SSD part of the hybrid drive? Can't even put a few games on there without most of them being on the slow part of the hard drive. Reply
dananski - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkI think my 5400rpm cheapo laptop drive is fine. I was pulling >50MB/sec off it yesterday, and I'm only using it as a data drive anyway, so the OS is nice and nippy on the SSD. I might try to get a faster HDD when I run out of space and need to upgrade it, but I wouldn't pay much extra for it. I think Seagate are justified in abandoning 7200rpm in 2.5 inch drives. Reply
andrewaggb - Monday, March 04, 2013 - link5400rpm laptop drives are painfully slow. If you can afford a quality ssd, it's so much faster...
I replaced the 5400 rpm drive in my laptop with an ssd after a couple days because I couldn't stand it. Launch times, everything where painful. i7, dedicated graphics, 8gb ram, and it ran like garbage. It's almost 3 years old now, but still a decent laptop.
My wife used to complain about her laptop (i7 quad core, dedicated graphics, etc...) being slow and taking forever to start programs and boot up. She would barely use it. I replaced the 5400 rpm drive with an ssd and windows 8, it's about 10 seconds from power button to start screen, apps launch fast, and she uses it all the time now.
Get a 160gb+ ssd though. 128gb is not quite big enough in my experience. Reply
ilihijan - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkI just got paid $6784 working on my laptop using these simple steps leaked on this web page. Make up to $85 per hour doing simple tasks that are so easy to do that you won't forgive yourself if you don't check it out! Weekly payments! Here is what I've been doing epic2.c(om) Reply
phillyry - Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - link^^^^^Post by ilihijan above is SPAM ^^^^^ Reply
WaltFrench - Saturday, March 16, 2013 - linkAs the article says, many laptops — e.g., my 2010 MBP — can be retrofitted with a pair of disks; the suggested System+Applications folders fit easily into my 160GB Flash drive, and user data is accessed just fine from my 1TB 5400 spinner.
Most user data is read in and written out essentially sequentially (especially with system-provided defrag), so access times are pretty fine, not that disk access speed is a huge issue with my zillions of MP3s, JPEGs and MP4s, or my Office files.
This works much faster than the 7200 rpm drive it replaced, has more capacity, and only required me to put the seldom-used optical drive in a separate case that stays home. Win-win-win. Reply
phoible_123 - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkYeah, but 5400 with a reasonable-sized SSD cache is close to as fast as an SSD (take a look at Apple's Fusion Drive for an example).
Seagate could replace the 7200 rpm XTs with 5400 and a larger cache, and they would probably outperform the current XT. Reply
ImSpartacus - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkYes, I wonder if this is true. Would performance be significantly impacted if the Momentus XT drives used 5400rpm hard drives? Reply
phoible_123 - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkhttp://www.anandtech.com/show/6679/a-month-with-ap... Reply
ImSpartacus - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkI was thinking of comparing a solution using 7200rpm drives to something identical except for using 5400rpm drives. I would expect that the larger the cache, the less the spindle speed matters, but that's just speculation.
I still liked this gem, "I'm personally a much bigger fan of going all solid state and manually segmenting your large media files onto HDD arrays, but perhaps that's me being set in my ways (or just me being right, not sure which one)." That alone made it worth a quick reread. Reply
Alexvrb - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkWhenever your cache does fail you, or just when loading/transferring data that is never supposed to be cached in the first place, it's going to be that much more painful when it has to fall back to the 5400RPM platters. If you use an SSD in your desktop, do you want your secondary drive to be a slow-as-dirt 5400RPM 2.5" laptop drive? But in a laptop with one drive bay, the only way to get both decently fast mechanical speeds for mass storage, and fast speeds on your most common files, is a hybrid with platters spinning at 7200RPM.
One advantage of Momentus XT over other solutions is that it's completely software agnostic. It's all done internally and as far as the OS knows it's just a dumb mechanical drive. The competing devices with more advanced, larger caches use SSD controllers and are a less eloquent blend of hardware and software to make it function as one drive, not unlike caching with a seperate drive. Either way you still would suffer more if you had to fall back to an even-slower 5400RPM mechanical solution for large files that aren't cached.
At this point I almost feel like they should have gone the opposite direction and discontinued 5400RPM drives instead. :P Reply
Wolfpup - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkI think so yes, as the XT when it's not pulling from cache is still the fastest mechanical notebook drive (even faster than the normal Seagate 7200RPM models as it has 2x the RAM cache too). Plus writes aren't cached.
Now...boost the SLC flash enough, like maybe 128GB up from 8GB and it might be different, but the original 4GB cache model, while that doesn't sound like much, has a huge impact. Reply
tipoo - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkFastest mechanical drive for Seagate, I'm pretty sure the Scorpio Black is faster for HDD functions. But the flash is well worth it imo, as a XT 750 owner. Reply
melgross - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkApple doesn't use a caching solution. It's totally different, and requires an SSD that's at least 128GB. It's much better in performance than a caching solution. Reply
tipoo - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkWell, if by "hybrid" you mean a flash component big enough to be a standalone SSD by itself. Reply
colinstu - Friday, March 01, 2013 - link7200rpm drives in laptops were always super slow feeling. 5400 is even worse, but it's not worth it. Some kind of well-implemented hybrid drive solution or all out SSD is the best way to go if someone wants speed, want's some REAL speed. Reply
madwolfa - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkWhy don't they release something like Apple Fusion Drive? Make a real SSD + HDD combo in one 2.5" case. Reply
dilidolo - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkThat is what they are heading to. No more 7200 rotation only disk
5400 rpm disk + SSD cache. Reply
melgross - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkAgain, Apple doesn't use a cache. It's different, and requires a much bigger SSD. Reply
Mr Perfect - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkWhy isn't Apple's fusion drive a cache? It's doing the same thing as the Seagate Momentus XT and Intel's RST do. It's a bigger SSD, granted, but the same thing is happening under the hood. Frequently used files are moved to the flash, while large or infrequently used files are pushed off to the mechanical drive. Reply
p_giguere1 - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkBecause files aren't duplicated onto the SSD, they're moved. Data is either on the hard drive or on the SSD, not on both as with traditional caching.
As a result, you end up with the total storage capacity of both the HDD and SDD combined, not just the HDD. Reply
TSkyline5 - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkThis doesn't surprise me. I've read reviews where the performance of higher-capacity 5400 RPM 2.5-inch drives approached that of 7200 RPM drives due to higher storage density per platter. The still-increasing storage capacities/platter densities of mechanical 2.5-inch drives should help narrow the performance gap between 5400 RPM drives and 7200 RPM drives. When you take the lower price points of solid state drives into account, 7200 RPM drives become harder and harder to justify, particularly since (if I remember correctly) 7200 RPM drives use more energy. Reply
Wolfpup - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkThat might be the case if you had a big enough discrepancy in storage, but we don't, comparing the largest 5400 to the largest 7200RPM drives. Like 5400 now is at 1TB, and 750GB for 7200RPM, last I checked at least. 7200RPM has faster seeks, reads, and writes, in any situation. Reply
Wolfpup - Friday, March 01, 2013 - linkThis is kind of freaky, BUT the way it reads they're not really discontinuing hybrid drives (i.e. the XT and it's decendants).
The way things are now, there's not much of a price penalty going with the XT, which has a larger RAM + flash cache, so maybe that's all this means.
As for the XT not providing SSD performance, well...that depends. I actually notice a bigger difference going from a regular 7200RPM drive (let alone a 5400RPM drive) to an XT than from an XT to an SSD. Why? The XT for me hacks boot times to 1/3. A quality SSD maybe chops off another few seconds. And once thing's are in RAM, it doesn't make much difference. I was actually more impressed with my first XT than my first SSD as a result.
I'd be really disappointed if they actually got rid of 7200RPM drives too because in a dual drive bay system, I'd still much prefer a 7200RPM drive for my media than 5400RPM. And unless you're willing to shell out $350 or more for 512GB, you probably can't go with an SSD in a single drive bay system, unless you have incredibly modest storage needs. Reply
kmmatney - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkI've been pretty happy with the XT, although not enough to use it in my work laptop. I tried it out, but it wasn't enough "SSD-like". However I moved it to a desktop, and it worked out great there. So good, I bought another one for another desktop. They definitely have their place if you need more space than an SSD, and don't want to deal with a separate OS drive. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkMomentus XT will still be around, don't worry :-) Reply
tipoo - Sunday, March 03, 2013 - linkWill future XTs still be 7200RPM? Reply
Mr Perfect - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkThat's the million dollar question. None of the articles I've read about this have mentioned what spindle speed future XT drives will be. Reply
DanaGoyette - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkI once tried a 500GB 7200RPM Seagate Laptop drive, and it vibrated so much my fingers actually SKIPPED across my touchpad instead of sliding. It also threatened to make my hands go numb, but I never gave it a chance to do so.
I ultimately replaced it in my laptop with a Hitachi 750GB 7200RPM drive. Very little vibration there. As for the Seagate drive, I ended up putting a rubber case on it, and sticking it in my HP Microserver as a system drive. (Yes, even inside the server, it still needed a rubber case.)
So, I won't miss those Seagate drives. Reply
Jinxed_07 - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkMaybe I'm just a fool, but I don't see SSDs because the one and only storage options in the future. The fact of the matter is that flash storage is, and always will be, volatile. Using one is akin to playing Russian roulette, in a best case scenario would keep your data for 5 years then have it blown away. Of course you could back it up several times by then, but the nature of NAND is that it becomes harder and harder for the flash memory to hold it's charge as the size of the chip is shrank to obtain those higher densities.
I'm not too excited about the release of a theoretical 1TB SSD because it's probably going to be way too unstable to be trustworthy to hold MY data, and OZC already made a PCIe SSD with that capacity (if you can't find it for sale anywhere it was probably discontinued because it was, you guessed it, too unstable.) Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkI don't get your point about 1TB SSDs being unstable. Enterprise SSDs are available in capacities of over 10TB per drive and they are not "unstable". Reply
ShieTar - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkYou seem to confuse RAM-drives with NAND-Flash drives. There is nothing volatile about flash, beyond the fact that all semiconductors are chemically meta-stable and will degrade if you leave them lying around for a few centuries. But thats true for mechanical hard-drives as well, they will demagnetize in the long run just as well. In reality, if you backup data on a SSD, a HDD and a DVD, the SSD has the best chances of those three to still be readable 20 years from now.
And the OCZ line of PCIe SSD hasn't gone anywhere, you can still buy their 3.2TB R-Drive if you happen to have a 20k$ lying around for that purpose. It's just not the kind of product you find on a "save 20$" kind of sales anouncement. Reply
phillyry - Thursday, March 07, 2013 - linkWhile NAND may be non-volatile, it does still degrade over time with use. As Anand has stated in one of his articles, the cells eventually cannot hold a charge. This is the reason for 3k-5k p/e (program/erase cycle) ratings and the respective 3-5yr warranties.
I wouldn't agree with the OP insofar as to say that SSDs become unstable over a certain size or all of a sudden but I think that they may be alluding to the ever decreasing cell size as we step down process nodes and the inherent difficulty that arises from smaller cell sizes, as well as by going from SLC to MLC and now TLC with the 20nm TLC Samsung 840.
To quote Kristian, "adding more bits per cell reduces endurance and also increases program, erase and read latencies." This is from his article on Samsung's 840 and the move to TLC. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6329/samsung-release...
This trade-off from SLC to MLC and subsequently from MLC to TLC is one of the major factors driving price down and capacities up, so the point is valid, in this respect. That being said, it has also been noted that improvements have been made (to the controllers mostly, I believe, and through over provisioning) that allow us to continue to move down the process node and increase the number of bits per cell, with trade-offs that have proven to be acceptable while continuing to increase the reliability of SSDs over time through controller and firmware improvements. Reply
Notmyusualid - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkAnd it was absolutely wonderful.
And I'm quite surprised they are dropping 7200rpm, they will just leave the market more open to those producing hybrid drives with 7200rpm internals.
FYI, they laptop housing that drive was stolen. That is the only reason it was replaced. Reply
tipoo - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - linkI still love my Momentus XT 750 even in the face of SSDs, I was hoping they would release a 1TB one with 16GB or more flash cache. The capacity per dollar is still appealing and the performance is notably better over standard 7200RPM drives. Reply
Beenthere - Saturday, March 02, 2013 - link2.5" Laptop HDDs are terrible for performance. A reliable SSD should be the norm, but some folks want 47 Terabytes of storage for their laptop so hybrids will serve as hack-ware substitute until SSD prices drop and SSD quality improves. Reply
piroroadkill - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkBy Seagate's OWN spec sheets, the 5400RPM versions of its drives use MORE energy than the 7200RPM drives, if you don't believe it, look it up on their site themselves.
5400 is obsolete.
I hope they mean they are discontinuing NON-Hybrid 7200RPM, because if they took the Momentus XT and bumped the NAND to about 30GB, it would be a fine, fine product.
Disclaimer: I do have a Momentus XT 750GB in my rig as a compromise between SSD and HDD for my giant Steam folder. (Caching the game you're currently playing has to count for something, right?) Reply
wclardy - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkBefore consigning 7.K rpm drives to the "no longer needed" pile, you folks might want to look at a recent Infoworld article titled "Test your SSDs or risk massive data loss, researchers warn: New study finds 13 of 15 flash-based solid-state drives suffer data loss or worse when they lose power". The URL for the article is http://www.infoworld.com/t/solid-state-drives/test...
The key point is that most SSDs tested showed significant data loss or data corruption when restarted after a power failure. Since "most freuently accessed data" usually correlates to "most important data", this has some serious implications for hybrid caching architectures as well as pure-SSD installations. Reply
ShieTar - Tuesday, March 05, 2013 - linkIn what world is power failure a relevant problem for a notebook? Reply
mtcoder - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkproblem I see is no one is looking at any raid option. Sorry but I like a raid option in my laptop just as much as I do in the desktop, and can't raid between a SSD and platter usually.
And going with two SSD tend to not be a viable option either when looking at cost to size comparisons. Reply
ryanmm - Monday, March 04, 2013 - link" In another five years, short of a new explosion in storage intensive files, we will likely reach the point where everything becomes pure SSD because the cost and performance will be better than any conventional or hybrid solutions."
Won't happen, people were saying this five years ago and it hasn't come close to coming true.
Enthusiasts shouldn't confuse what they would like to happen with what will happen in the real world. Hard drives will continue to be dominant. Reply
ShieTar - Tuesday, March 05, 2013 - linkActually, I am already at the point where both my Desktop PC (256GB) and my Notebook (128GB) are pure SSD. Only my fileserver is keeping 4TB of mechanical drives for music and videos.
Some users may have more data-extensive hobbies then myself, but for the vast majority of youtube-watching standard users, 256GB of notebook-memory are fine, and 512GB will be more than enough. And thats already available at prices below 300$, and falling quickly. Reply
Nfarce - Wednesday, March 06, 2013 - linkLike someone else here, I have the 750GB Momentus XT for my PC gaming rig, mainly for Steam files and Flight Simulator files. It is slower than the 256GB SATA III SSD in my backup gaming rig, but much, much faster than the 500GB 7,200 HDD that used to be in that backup gaming rig.
And let's not forget about 2.5" HDDs for gaming consoles. I highly doubt a large capacity SSD will be used for the Xbox 720 or PS4. I have a 750GB 7200rpm drive right now in a PS3 for home video movies and other files not game related. Will have the same needs for the PS4. Let's hope WD doesn't decide to go this way of axing the 2.5" drive either. Reply


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There are 34 real estate agents servicing Kings Park and surrounds. In 2014 they sold 60 properties. We have analysed all these Kings Park agents and on request within 24 hours we will send you a free, up-to-date report on their performance, sales track record and what fees you should pay. View report contents
We are the only service in Australia that analyses all local agents and their performance, and provides this to you in a transparent and unbiased manner. View frequently asked questions
We pride ourselves on providing independent, insightful analysis on real estate agents. Read real client case studies to see how we continually exceed expectations. We never disclose your details to any agents unless you specifically instruct us to do so.
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Which Real Estat Agent is an Australian company (ACN 092 013 931) established in 2011. We provide professional, free services to property sellers Australia wide, with operations in Sydney & Melbourne.
1/246 Oxford Street Paddington NSW 2021 | 1300 66 555 7 | email@example.com
Real Estate Agents Kings Park – 2012/13 Performance
Kings Park Real Estate Agents sold 60 houses over the last 12 months. On average these 60 Kings Park houses took 106 days to sell and were sold at an average discount of -8% from their initial listing price.
The best Kings Park Real Estate Agents sell properties considerably better than these average figures. We detail who these Kings Park agents are in our free report.
Importantly it is the performance of the individual real estate agent rather than the agency used that matters. With over 34 agents operating in the Brimbank – Keilor council area servicing the Kings Park market and 13 agencies, vendors should only use those Kings Park agents who routinely deliver superior results for their clients. This is crucial to maximise their chances of securing the best possible price for their Kings Park property.
With total house price growth of 54% over the last five years Kings Park agents have had it reasonably easy selling into an appreciating market. Growth in Kings Park houses over the last year has been below the five year annual growth rate, coming in at -4% (5yr average 11%).
Request your free report for the individual performance details of real estate agents in Kings Park and the properties they have sold over the last couple of years.
With Kings Park property transactions only occurring on average every 7 years, securing the best Kings Park real estate agent to manage this infrequent transaction is crucial.
At the end of the day choosing the best Kings Park real estate agent to sell your property can make years of difference to your personal financial situation.
Suburb Overview
Kings Park is a suburb of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 20 km north-west from Melbourne's central business district. Its Local Government Area is the City of Brimbank. At the 2011 Census, Kings Park had a population of 8,331.
Kings Park was named after the King family whose farm formed much of the land the estate was developed on. Kings Road which forms the eastern boundary was also named after the King family and the family farm house was located on Kings Road near the current intersection with Grevillea Road.
The suburb began as a housing estate within the St Albans 3021 postcode area which eventually became an official suburb with the same 3021 postcode.
The estate began construction around approximately 1971 with the first stage consisting of Gillespie Road, Kings Park Reserve, Magnolia Ave and the existing Kings Road. At the time Kings Road was a single lane of bitumen with gravel on either side.
Stage 2 consisted of the area bounded by Maplewood Rd/Fairmont St, Taylors Rd, Braeswood Rd & Gillespie Rd and was completed in 1972. At the time Taylors Rd was a gravel road west of Kings Rd.
The current boundaries for Kings Park are Taylors Road, Kings Road, Main Road West and Kororoit Creek and the City of Brimbank/ Shire of Melton LGA boundary.
Kings Park Reserve is located on Gillespie Road with facilities for AFL Football, Cricket and Lawn Bowls.
It is the home to the St Albans "Saints" Football Club which plays in the Western Region Football League with various Male and Female senior and junior teams playing in the Red & Blue colours made famous by the Melbourne AFL team.
The St Albans Bowls Club and a Scout Hall are also located within the reserve and accessed from the Magnolia Ave entry.
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