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iPad mini Hands On - Updated with More Photos & Videosby Anand Lal Shimpi on 10/23/2012 2:25 PM EST
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tipoo - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - link1024x768, A5 guts from the iPad 2, and 130 dollars more than the Nexus 7 to boot...I'm underwhelmed. They aren't even selling the 3 at the price of the 2 like they did with the 2 for the 3 either, it's just the 2 or the 4 now. No quad core in the Retina Macbook pro, the iMac dropped the optical drive and tapered the edges a bit. Meh to all of this. Reply
kyuu - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkAgree.
Plus, after following all the WinRT tablets coming out and now looking at this, I can't imagine buying an iPad now, mini or otherwise. Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkYeah, I can't wait to try out a Surface RT Reply
steven75 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkThe problem with the Surface RT is it will come out with about 4,000 apps vs the very well established iPad ecosystem with it's whopping 275,000 apps. Reply
drwho9437 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - link275,000 applications sounds important right? But I can think of maybe 10-20 programs I actually use. Do I think those will be covered in the first 4000, probably, if not I'm quite sure with MS's developers, developers, developers base they will be soon. I think the lack of brand name envy for MS is going to be the bigger issue given Surface pricing. Here is to hoping I am wrong and that people are more rational than I give them credit for. Reply
B3an - Thursday, October 25, 2012 - linkTheres already 6000+ apps in the Windows Store right now. Likely over 8000 on release day. Apps are not a problem anyway, this is Windows not some unknown OS. The app count will grow very fast. And any app made for the Windows Store automatically work on both Win 8 and RT as all apps run on the new Windows RunTime. Win 8 apps are also Win RT apps.
I agree with the others, iPads are not appealing against RT tablets, let alone a full Win 8 tablet. Reply
steven75 - Friday, November 02, 2012 - linkPeople said WP7 would grow it's app collection very fast as well and look at it now: Still a 7x multiple behind Android/iOS and still missing headline apps like Instagram and Pandora (I'm aware Pandora was announced for a *future* release)
Also, do we really have to go over the flaws in the "but I only need about 20-40 apps" argument again? Ok, ONE MORE TIME:
You only use that many apps but your set is different than everyone else's set. Now do you see why selection matters? It should be pretty easy to understand considering this is the main reason people have bought Windows computers in the last 2 decades. No one says "oh, I only need 20 apps so I'll just use Linux" or whatever. Reply
name99 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkTroll type 4, Son of "I don't even own a TV", strikes again...
What makes you think ANYONE gives a damn about what you as an individual plan to buy or not?
Try to add something to the conversation beyond just "me, me, me --- look at me" Reply
puggsly - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkOk, so how about this. For the extra $80 you pay for an iPad Mini vs a nexus 7 you get.
1) physically larger touch panel.
2) physically smaller and lighter device.
3) A usable camera for stills and video.
4) More than a quarter of a million apps designed for the larger screen.
5) Faster Graphics performance.
6) Higher quality build.
7) The number 1 rated company in customer service for these devices.
What the competition has.
1) Higher resolution display.
2) Faster CPU performance.
Beyond this we can get into Siri, iCloud, iWork, and iLife vs Google Maps, and web services etc... But from a primarily hardware standpoint I can't see how the Nexus is clearly superior. Reply
nofumble62 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkDon't forget the GPS and Google map. Instead of upgrading your GPS, just get a Nexus. Reply
iwod - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - link8. And the iPad Mini Touch Screen response will be much better then the Nexus 7.
Yes it is slightly more expensive then what i would expect. $299, the rumour price of $249 is just silly. But i also didn't expect Facetime HD Camera, 5M iSight Camera, and 5Ghz Wifi as well as Bluetooth 4.0. Reply
BSMonitor - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkUnderwhelmed by your knowledge.
The 4th generation is simply a step up in the CPU and the connector. The rest of the components are largely unchanged. The iPad 2 exists because Apple can leverage the old panel, old form and the guts and profit from it. iPad mini another example of that. Making money on existing manufacturing investment.
Having CPU options for the retina version would be pointless. Reply
Eldia - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkThe 4th gen iPad also has an "HD" front camera. Reply
aliasfox - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkBut with the SoC and motherboard paid for by two revisions of iPod2, Apple really could've gone in with guns blazing on the iPad mini. $329 doesn't sound like guns blazing, but they'll still probably sell out regardless.
With the iPod Touch coming in at $299, there was no way this was going to undercut it, but they really should've tried. Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkFascinating.
Still underwhelmed. Reply
CharonPDX - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkThe problem with the Nexus 7 comparison is that the $199 Nexus has half the storage. To get the same storage as the minimum-price iPad mini, you have to get the $249 Nexus 7, which is "only" $80 cheaper.
Neither is my cup of tea, but there certainly is a market for it, at the current price. I have to imagine that they didn't go with $299 solely to put SOME pressure on demand so they could keep up the supply. Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkFor now, fair enough, but I think they are going to double the storage while keeping the same price, there's decently backed rumors for that. Reply
powerarmour - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkI thought this was supposed to compete with the Nexus 7?!, oh dear... Reply
steven75 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkAndroid tablets wont' be competition until Android gets quality tablet apps.
Until then, it's pretty much all iPad, all the time. Reply
Impulses - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkWhat are these killer tablet apps? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to flame bait here... Maybe it's just my usage model but I spend the vast majority of the time on my tablet within the browser or email clients... Android's stock email client is pretty mediocre, tho the Gmail one is superb, Chrome's pretty hard to beat tho (NFC, remote session access for moving between desktop/phone/tablet, etc). Reply
Calista - Monday, October 29, 2012 - linkI'm just like you. Everyone seem to talk about all those hundred of thousands of apps and the huge advange Apple have. I think I'm just using fifteen apps 99 percent of the time I use my tablet.
Browser - default (Chrome seem lacking still)
Gmail client
Comic reader
Adobe PDF reader
Gallery app
File manager and Root Browser
Google Maps
Youtube app
TED app
uTorrent client
And a few odd games..
I'm not saying more apps are not needed, it's just that those are the things that I'm interested in doing on a tablet. If I plan to work with pictures I have a proper desktop, If I plan to work with office I have my laptop as an option, If I need to do SOMETHING SERIOUS the computer is always my first choice because even if a tablet *may* be able to do it using a computer is just so much faster. Just try to copy and paste a text, how much longer would it take on a tablet - three times longer? Five times longer? Maybe ten times longer even if you need to switch application? Reply
puggsly - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkIt does!
Larger display, and still smaller and lighter. Good quality rear facing camera and superior graphics performance at only a $80 premium. Combine these things with the applications, customer support, build quality, and over all ecosystem and I think this is a serious competitor. Reply
Zink - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkThe key thing is it still offers the full tablet experience at 80% size. Every iPad app you load on it shows the same detailed view that you see with the heavy 10" tablets. Something like the Nexus 7 ships with the DPI set higher than a 10" tablet so you get a view that is half phone, half tablet. Lowering the DPI works well, the only downsides are that many people don't know how to do it and it makes phone apps look even sillier.
Android apps are getting there but many companies have been slow with releasing anything more than a phone app. Phone apps aren't too bad on a Nexus 7 but they are very different than a native iPad app. There is a section at 55:30 in the keynote where the Nexus 7 and iPad are compared. I know they handpicked apps but over the last 2.5 years every iOS app has optimized for tablets while android is still inconsistent, even from big brands.
There is also the slightly large diagonal and fatter aspect ratio that gives you 33% more surface area and 66% more application real estate in landscape mode where the onscreen android controls sap display high. The difference that a smaller display and onscreen controls makes looks very noticeable when trying to use full sized web pages or detailed applications. Reply
Calista - Monday, October 29, 2012 - linkAn iPad Mini with 64 GB is quite expensive when compared to an Android with 8/16 GB and a 64 GB SDXC-card (I think this is a very valid comparison since many wish for more than 16 GB). So it's not an iPad for those on a strict budget but for those wishing for a more portable tablet. And for that I think it works well. It's not like many people have complained about the G2 iPad feeling slow.
But "only a $80 premium" is only partly true. Reply
Aikouka - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkAnand, do you have any speculations on the amount of RAM in the iPad Mini? Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkA5 SoC = 512MB. I'm certain it's not 256mb or 1024. Reply
jaydee - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkSeems like the the chassis of the iMac is too small to dissapate the heat of an IB quad + Kepler + mech HDD. I'm betting big thermal problems for this gen iMac until Haswell + integrated GT3 graphics + SSD comes around.
Was hoping Mac Mini would have a 128GB SSD, perhaps in conjunction with the 500GB HDD. If Apple is serious about promoting a great "user experience", they've got to beat PC's in ridding their machines of mechanical HDD's, at least for the OS/Apps, if not altogether. Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkLooking at the pictures on their website, there is now a hole on the imac back behind the stand, as well as holes along the bottom, I think they can cool it just fine especially with Kepler and IVB. Reply
name99 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkWhat are you talking about? You CAN buy the mac mini with
- an HD only
- an SSD only
- a fusion config (which I'm guessing is 128GB SSD + a 900 GB HD)
Go to the Apple store, buy the 1TB version, and then custom configure to swap the drive to what you want.
I can understand them retaining the HD only version. For many of the most common uses of a mac mini (like HTPC) an SSD is not worth the cost --- the usage model utilizes large disks, but has no need for rapid random access. Reply
dyc4ha - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkThis is poorly done even by Apple's standard. I would be more willing to give it a shot with an A6, but all the other specs point to a substandard product. This is almost like the Samsung 7.7 tab from a year ago... I am so glad I can now buy an iPod XL.. Reply
KPOM - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkI'm a bit surprised they kept the iPad 2 rather than position this as the "cheaper" iPad. The specs are fine for the intended audience. Again, with Apple, it's all about thinness, so by keeping the processor a bit slower they were able to keep the battery life up. The 3rd gen had an A5X, so I wasn't expecting an A6 for the Mini since it doesn't need the power to run the screen. I was actually surprised they updated the larger iPad with the A6X as quickly as they did.
My guess is that this is a thing of beauty in person. Remember, the target audience doesn't care about the processor or RAM. Reply
name99 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkSo what exactly are you claiming? That none of these products will sell?
Give a number --- Tim told us 100 million iPads sold over the last 2.5 years.
So: I'll bet you a thousand dollars that at least 30 million iPad minis will sell over the next year --- which is VASTLY more than all the Nexus 7s, Tab/Note 7.7's and Surfaces put together.
What do you claim will happen, with your superior knowledge of what the dead think and the future? Reply
UpSpin - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkApple were one of first to hoffer high density displays, they even risked it with their Macs.
The competiton often used displays with higher pixel count than the iPad 2 but not meaningful more. However, now most new tablets offer a density which makes it hard to see individual pixels. Even the Nexus 7 has a HD resultion on a 7 inch display.
Yet, Apples latest iPad mini only has XGA resolution on a 8 inch display. So they use a several years old display technology, combine it with a two generations old SoC, the same the iPad 2 uses, and sell it for a premium price. Just take a look at a 32GB LTE iPad mini: $560 for two generations old hardware.
Sure, specs aren't everything, but those specs are really really bad.
To read text the display isn't up-to date, text is jagged compared to any other tablet, to watch movies the display has the wrong aspect ratio and, again, too low resolution. To play games the SoC may be capable for current versions, but with the much improved iPad 4 SoC, soon to get released games won't run on it any longer.
It's also odd that Apple hasn't lowered the price of the iPad 3, or do they even sell it any longer. It's probably cheaper to buy a used iPad 3 than a new iPad 2, and you get a much better device. Reply
KPOM - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkMy guess is that we're a year or so from cost effective 7.9" Retina Displays. Apple already "fragmented" the iPhone, so they probably didn't want to do the same with the iPad. Reply
EnzoFX - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkReally really bad? Are you serious. Grow up. 1024x768 is not that far off from 1280x800. They're both relatively close to 720p. Reply
UpSpin - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkNexus 7: 1280x800 @ 7" = 216 ppi
iPad Mini: 1024x768 @ 7.9" = 162 ppi
iPhone 3GS: 320×480 @ 3.54" = 163 ppi
so you get the display you know from the iPhone 3GS, if you enjoyed its resolution, fine, but the difference between the PPI of the Nexus 7 and iPad Mini is noticably.
The Nexus 7 can show 720p without rescaling, the iPad Mini has to heavily downscale them to fit it to the 1024 width. If you do the math you'll see the Nexus 7 shows 100% of 720p quality, the iPad Mini only 64%, that is far off again!
The iPad Mini has a larger display with lower resolution than the Nexus 7 and costs much more! Reply
cmdrdredd - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkJust wait until the end of the month. If the rumored Nexus 10 tablet is announced with 2560x1600 in a 10" screen with all the goodies like quad core CPU etc. It could really make Apple's iPad lineup look beyond silly depending on the pricepoint. It's still rumor but I can totally see it happening. Reply
uhuznaa - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkBut, honestly most of the existing Android apps are already bad enough on the 7" Nexus. Using them on a 10" 2560x1600 screen will be pathetic.
I mean, I more or less can get over that on the Nexus 7 but how on earth do people cope with silly smartphone apps with some tiny buttons in the top-left corner and everything else behind the menu button on a 10" hi-res display?
I wouldn't be surprised if the 4000 WinRT apps were more than the existing tablet apps for Android. I don't see a bright future for Android on tablets at all. Reply
steven75 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkI personally doubt most iPad owners spend much time watching movies. They're too busy using any of the 275,000 tablet apps.
Android tablet users don't have that luxury. Reply
Alawishis - Thursday, October 25, 2012 - link270,000 so-called tablet apps on iTunes. Wooptiedoo, it will not take GooglePlay log to catch up and overtake that number. They have already caught up to Apple in total apps and will soon over take them there. Really how many apps does any one person use 10-20 tops.
The difference to the Nexus7 is more than $80 much more. Google is doubling the storage of the entry Nexus to 16GB and retaining the $199 price. That alone makes it a $180 price difference. Add to that Apples proprietary connectors Adapters are $49 each, OUCH! Nexus7 uses the ubiquitous mini USB. Apps in GooglePlay are typically cheaper than on iTunes, and there are a much greater number of free apps boot. I'm sure if someone was ambitious enough to do a full cost-based anaysis you would wind up spending $200-$300 more over the life of your tablet to by the Apple offering.
The killer me, besides the high price, is that mini-iPad's lack of a GPS.
If you read the posts of people who actually own a Nexus7 it's pretty clear who the winner is. I think Apple really missed the boat here. I predict deep discounts before Christmas on the mini-iPad to clear dead stock. Reply
fr33h33l - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkI cannot help thinking that the iPad Mini is the first device that truly shows that Apple is not the same without Steve Jobs at the helm. Not that I liked his personality, but he at least brought unity, consistency and clear direction for the company.
The iPad Mini feels both like a halfhearted and desperate effort, trying to catch up with the competition. As said below, the low screen resolution (how come a non-Retina display is so amazing all of a sudden?), and old SoC are far from innovative and the long running comparison to Nexus 7 just shows how lost Apple has become without Jobs (if I were Larry Page, I would call up Tim Cook and thank him for a 5 minute free commercial). Also, from a technical standpoint, the Nexus 7 actually looks superior, both in terms of SoC and screen resolution - at a much lower price.
The extremely early upgrade of the iPad 4 (or whatever it is called) also feels merely like a counter-move towards the competition, not something that can be viewed as innovative. Granted, twice the graphics performance vs. A5X sounds quite nice, but why already now if Apple weren't feeling threatened and worried, especially by MS Surface and rumored Google/Samsung 10-inch Retina beating tablet? If nothing else, a good way of alienating existing "New iPad" customers. Reply
EnzoFX - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkWow you are ridiculously overdramatic.
No one said 1024x768 was AMAZING. At best most are saying it'll do fine. You're getting lost on the fact that this is supposed to be a low end item by comparison. To cry over no retina is like crying that the cheaper 13" mac pro doesn't have retina. Or the Mac Book Air. This is a stupid argument so long as there are still product lines that DON'T have retina. Get over it. Reply
cmdrdredd - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkActually no...see Apple claims it does everything better. Every keynote makes it sound like they have some magic wand to make their product better and stand out. This thing falls flat on its face a million times over compared to what else is out there. For the record is is much easier to hold and much better for movies to have a rectangular product not a square one. This is why the Nexus 7 is superior from the beginning. Before the CPU, before the resolution, and before the customizable OS. It has a 16:10 aspect ratio which is a hell of a lot better for everything than 4:3. Especially if you are trying to watch HD movies, 1024x768 isn't even 720p so playing back an HD video will not be as crisp at all. Reply
EnzoFX - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkEverything? Not for webpages, which you can see Apple is still prioritizing, rightfully so, seeing as that's what we mostly do on them. It's that same old argument. Watch movies on your TV, not on a 7" device. =P
Hopefully Retina comes early next year for the same price heh. Reply
Calista - Monday, October 29, 2012 - link>1024x768 isn't even 720p so playing back an HD video will not be as crisp at all.
Don't be silly, few if anyone would be able to tell the differens on a 720p clip being played back on a WXGA vs a XGA panel. Pixel density is one of the least important things to define a great picture. Reply
Alucard291 - Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - linkRight right so when the iphones had nothing going for them except "shitty-na" displays everyone COULD REALLY tell the difference. And now 60ppi doesn't make any difference?
Can we just make our minds up on whether 60ppi is significant or not? ^^ Reply
FearfulSPARTAN - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkHe makes a good point actually in my opinion Reply
fr33h33l - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkIf my only argument would have been the low resolution (and, as cmdrdredd points out below, the outdated aspect ratio), then possibly I would have been overdramatic. However, if you read my post again, you should be able to conclude that's not the case.
Even though most people are still underwhelmed (again, a fitting description) as far as specs go, the most troublesome fact for Apple in all this is that they are now reacting instead of acting, which for a company who basically claims innovation monopoly is not a good sign. Reply
Zink - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkI wouldn't say the iPad 4 is a countermove because it is purely a performance increase. Copying other tablets would be a countermove, but they have to make it faster sometime between today and 6 months from now, why wait? The way the timing worked out they already decided to release their new CPU on the iPhone instead of the iPad. It wouldn't make much sense so be selling iPads half as fast as the iPhone for 6 months. Like you said, the GPU upgrade is "nice" but doesn't really help make the UI any better unless we start seeing PS3 level graphics in games.
Moving back to the old res on the Mini is definitely not amazing but I think their presentation is largely about the user experience. iPad apps are designed around this res and the panel is too small to fit a 3MP screen this year. Higher resolution would have been nice but it would mean stretched apps and a poor user experience for a 40% increase in PPI. I guess they could have avoided making this product entirely but I think many people will like having something smaller.
The slow CPU and small RAM sucks but I don't see customers caring. It's about the UI and if people like using this better even with 512MB ram then it looks like a good product. The software is designed to perform with these limitations so I'm sure it isn't too painful. I don't think you can say the Nexus 7 is superior for the average consumer based on specs alone, more important is what you can see on the screen and how seamlessly it can be interacted with. There are $150 tablets on ebay with "superior" specs but I don't think iPad users care. The Nexus 7 is definitely crushes crapgadget tablets but not with superior specifications.
The side by side comparison of apps seemed to me to be in bad taste with regards to Google because Apple already dominates sales but if anything I think it will help kick app developers in the right direction. I think the comparison of web page viewing in landscape was necessary as I had no idea that the Nexus 7's small screen + wide aspect + on screen controls would mean only seeing 60% of the content. With a Nexus 7 already on the screen for area comparison, I guess I can't fault them for taking the shots they did.
Pricing is one area where I think they got it right. Apple's products are premium products and they already have great sales. Trying to compete on price isn't something Jobs did and this is the same Apple. Reply
Impulses - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkWho browses in landscape mode on a tablet tho? Like...why would you?
I'm not knocking the mini tho, I think the intended market will eat it up. In a sense it's a lot like the first IPad... Not really the best tablet they could produce, but it was the best possible time to put one out.
The price point and size on the mini are things people really wanted out of Apple, and they're giving it to them without sacrificing perennially high profit margins for a better SoC or display. Next year's model will probably be a big jump on both accounts.
Me I'm anxious for a Nexus 7 refresh... I'll probably be giving one away as a Christmas gift this year but I'm holding out for the next rev (and possibly Win RT hardware) before upgrading my year and a half old Transformer, which I bought for $300 mind you... 10" 1280x800 :p (crazy Staples $100 off tablets special) Reply
steven75 - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkOnce you accept the fact that the competition is sorely lacking in the software department, and that the most important factor in buying a tablet computer is the software it's capable of running, it makes perfect sense. $239 for a tablet with hundreds of thousands of apps or $200-$250 for one that has a few thousand at best.
The 4th gen iPad is a more interesting story. Reply
Fleeb - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkSo I guess a single user owns at least 10000 apps for the hundreds of thousands of apps to make sense? Reply
Bubbacub - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkwhat useful apps are there on ios that arn't available on android (other than some overpriced games) Reply
Scannall - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkI use this one all the time. Though it is fairly specialized.
Garageband for the iPad is pretty spectacular as well. Reply
Sevenfeet - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkMost of you guys here aren't seeing the proverbial forest for the trees and once again are getting bogged down by specs.
News Flash: Apple has to deliver a product with a premium experience at a price people can live with. Yes, Google and Amazon came out with lower priced products, but neither of those devices feel as good in your hand, and both products are being sold AT COST. Amazon is hoping you'll buy content from them over two years and Google us happy to data-mine the heck out of your life in exchange for ad dollars. Apple just wants your money upfront...that's their business model. It's not a surprise. Most companies have a similar model. Deal with it.
Second, getting bogged down in the ppi specs forgets that a 1024x768 screen means developers have to do NOTHING in order to play on this device. Anything made for the iPad family will run. A retina display in a device like this will jack the price up to something no one will want, and the build yields would probably suck anyway, meaning you couldn't get one. Those of you looking forward to 1080p on your phablet Android phones next year forget that you're still paying for your device on contract for two years...not an option in the tablet market.
Yes, the A6 would have been nice, but no one else is stuffing their devices with the latest quad-core hotness and trying to sell it for $200. None of you guys seem to get basic economics. And Apple is still giving you two cameras, LTE options, etc.
One thing is certain, none of Apple's competitors are happy that they finally entered the market in this space. All they have to hang their hat on is that Apple went for $329 as MSRP which means they may still have a shot on the low end. And the 4th gen iPad pretty much nullifies any reason to get the Surface Pro, unless you want a thicker tablet with vent holes and lousy battery life just to get that extra performance. The business customers are already well into their first generation of owning an iPad and this will just keep them coming back for more. All the enterprise software firms are developing for iPad first, Android second. Surface isn't even being discussed right now.
Get a grip, people. Reply
Fleeb - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkSo an enterprise application that already works in Win7 would not work in Surface Pro? I see. I guess this is reason enough we should not even consider Win8 devices. Reply
Sevenfeet - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkIt's not that Win7 apps won't work on a Surface Pro. We all expect them to. But most of those apps weren't designed for a tablet. And the few ones that are were designed for Tablet PC, which is now obsolete. I have a friend who's a physician who uses Tablet PC in his office and his problem is that those pen-based PCs are getting harder to find now.
Surface has to survive by making a suitable value proposition and that's going to be to Enterprise customers, most of which are already using iPads. And yes, developers have to get on board but the big enterprise software companies have been developing for iOS for a while now. So have their customers. This isn't a slam dunk anymore for Microsoft. Reply
Impulses - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkAll that explains why it makes sense for Apple to do exactly what they did with the mini, and I agree, but it doesn't necessarily make it the best small tablet on the market... Not by a long shot IMO. It largely depends on usage case and what ecosystem you're already married with, I'm betting Apple's banking largely on the latter tho.
Had they waited another year to release a small tablet at a sub $350 price point they might've been too late, so they built the best they could without sacrificing their healthy profit margin or compatibility, good for them, probably fine for a lot of people too. Great timing too, I imagine it's gonna fly off the shelves on Christmas. Reply
Alucard291 - Tuesday, October 30, 2012 - linkSo what you're saying is - you bought apple products because of the prem... logo on the back right? Reply
nbcbubba - Tuesday, October 23, 2012 - linkSevenfeet hit the nail on the head. Reply
Brainling - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkSo as the owner of a full iPad 2, and a Nexus 7, I really don't see much point in the iPad Mini for me, which is basically what I expected. I'm not going to sell my capable Nexus 7 just to up-sell myself to the more expensive iPad Mini, especially when I already have a full iPad to run iOS tablet apps.
I guess I have the same thought as many other people: Who is Apple actually competing against with this? It would seem to be itself, as 329 at the low end is not going to entice Nexus and Fire buyers, it's just not. Especially now that the Nexus 7 is getting a doubling in storage capacity, with the 16GB moving down a price point and the 32GB version taking it's $249 perch.
Now, if I didn't own a tablet of any kind, and wanted a 7" tablet...I would seriously consider the mini. Again, as the owner of an iOS and an Android tablet, both of which I love to pieces, the iOS ecosystem is just flat better for the average user right now. That's not to disparage Android as a platform, or Android tablets, it's just sort of the reality of the head start Apple had in that space. I just go back to my fear that Apple is really only competing against themselves with this device, because it's just not priced aggressively enough to compete in the space that the Nexus 7 and Fire are competing in. Reply
SunnyInBoston - Wednesday, October 24, 2012 - linkI think many of the techies here really don't get how people think in the outside world!
Why is Apple charging $329 for this? Simply because they can! It's the same reason that a Lexus LS costs $65K, while a Hyundai Equus (with comparable, or better specs) costs $30K. Because people are willing to pay for a premium brand! Sure, if you're in auto manufacturing, you'd say "Hey, the Lexus is just an overpriced better packaged Camry", but do you think 99.99% of the world thinks this way?
Sine 1997 when Jobs returned to Apple, they've carefully built a premium brand, and even more so since the iPod. And people want to have a premium brand! Last summer, when the iPad2 was the flagship device, I wanted to give one to my wife for her birthday. But I just could not get one! It took me 3 goddamn weeks to get my hand on one!
Google, Amazon and the others just haven't been around that long (hardware wise) for it to matter that the Nexus 7 has better specs in some respects! MS tried the same approach with Zune - we'll give people better specs at the same price. The marketplace said "Whatever!" Reply
aravenwood - Thursday, October 25, 2012 - linkNot clear to me if the iPad Mini has the retina display or not. It seems like they just shrunk the thing and used an old screen. Not sure if my impression is correct. Reply
Wolfpup - Friday, October 26, 2012 - linkI'm assuming not, but to me that's the only reason to go with a smaller size/worse CPU/GPU, as this could be used in place of an iPod touch! :-)
I'm assuming that wouldn't really work though... Reply


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Amazon Kindle (4th Gen) Reviewby Andrew Cunningham on 10/19/2011 12:30 PM EST
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tipoo - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkIts only 20 bucks less than the Touch, and it has half the battery capacity. I don't see much appeal in the cheapest one. Reply
Jabman - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkWell for one, it's meant to do one thing in particular and that is to act as a book reader, not an ipod or even a gaming device so comparing the two is moronic. Reply
Jabman - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkMY BAD! -_-'
Thought you meant the ipod touch and not the kindle touch.
Sorry again. Reply
sandpa - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkHow is it moronic ? They use the same display technology and have the same screen size. The Touch is $99 with double the battery life, double the storage, slightly bigger in dimensions and weight. Reply
Stargrazer - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkWell, it's a bit smaller and weighs 20% less.
If you don't care about the 3G connectivity, don't plan to use it in a way where the touch screen is a significant benefit, and aren't bothered by having to charge it more often (which still won't be "often"), that counts for something. Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkWeighs 20% less than a children's novel...Meh, not that big a benefit.
The battery spec on my Nook Touch is close to the Kindle Touch, but the ratings are done based on either an hour or half an hour a day. For people like me that's not much. I charge my Nook every week and a half, more or less. With a battery half the size and similar power draw, that would diminish one of the biggest draws of e-ink. Its 20 bucks to alleviate that, if you're buying an e-book reader I'm sure you can spare it. Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - link*Its also double the storage. Reply
Stargrazer - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkWhile 20% less weight (and smaller size) might not be earth shattering, it is still a distinct advantage (keep in mind that you often end up holding the Kindle "far" away from its center of gravity).
Double storage on the other hand, is for the majority of users a complete non-benefit (most people don't have more than the estimated 1400 books required to fill up the 2GB storage, and probably have other devices that can play their mp3s).
Yes, the increased battery life is good (but obviously comes at a trade-off with weight), but most users can probably still go weeks between recharging, and that's probably "good enough" for most.
The other major issue is the user interface.
I've had a Kindle 3 ("Kindle Keyboard 3G") for a bit over a year now, and it's *very* rare that I find any real use for the keyboard. In the few cases I do, I'm pretty sure I could have managed with the 5-way controller.
On the other hand, with a touch screen interface you're bound to end up with smudges on the screen, making it harder to read. Also, I haven't seen any hardware page-switch buttons on the Touch, which would seem to indicate that you'll have to touch the screen to turn pages. If that is actually the case, I'd say that the non-Touch version actually has a *superior* user interface *for my purposes*.
Basically, it would seem that the non-Touch Kindle ends up with 2 significant benefits (for my usage scenario at least) with Size/Weight and user interface, while the Touch ends up with one - increased battery life.
Personally I would value the former higher, and if I was given the option of a Touch Kindle and a non-Touch Kindle *at the same price*, I would still choose a non-Touch.
Different users obviously have different preferences, but I don't think people should be too quick to discount the advantages of the non-Touch. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkIf you're format agnostic and don't care about the 3g feature the most recent eink nook has physical page turn buttons and a touchscreen for general navigation.
I'd be willing to trade the keyboard for a general use touchscreen to save weight because a handful of prints aren't major nuisance on a matte screen, but losing the page turn buttons is a deal breaker. The big 800-1600 fingerprint per book grease spot isn't the most serious problem with the kindle touch. The ~4x/minute side to side motion moving my finger on/off the touchscreen to cycle between pages is a major RSI trigger; I doubt I'd be able to read more than a short novel in one session without being in pain before I finish.
Niether having nor particularly wanting a smartphone (RSI problems again), the 3g kindle keyboards browser is appealing as an emergency net connection even with its limitations. Reply
TerdFerguson - Sunday, February 19, 2012 - linkAside from stating my belief that formats aren't a big issue because text is transformed with trivial ease, I'd like to express my over jealousy. 4x a minute you're turning pages!?!? I average a little over 100 pages an hour when reading non-technical material, like a novel, and that rate allows me to finish books at a pace dramatically faster than my family and peers. If you're really reading 250 pages an hour, I salute you, sir. Reply
TerdFerguson - Sunday, February 19, 2012 - linkGood call!! I'm forever wiping the surface of my iPhone down. I don't /think/ I'm a particularly greasy person, but I'm very sensitive to smudges. I /do/ wish that the page turn buttons on the kindle were a little closer to the base of the device, but it's a trivially minor annoyance for me and may not be an issue for anyone else.
I suspect, too, that the Amazon devices have better third-party support for cases. My cheap case can fold out into a triangle to hold the book upright while I eat or into a steady form against my leg or chest, and it's wonderful. Reply
Penti - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkWell as the Touch / Touch 3G is only available in the states it does warrant a review. Would have love to see a Kindle Touch for worldwide distribution though with on screen keyboard in landscape view/mode and an improved browser as it's an excellent reading device. Reply
Wolfpup - Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - linkI'd gladly pay more for the Kindle 4 over the touch. Touch screens are rather lousy for page turns compared to physical buttons. Reply
connor4312 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkOn the contrary, I consider myself quite tech-savvy, and I love my kindle. Instead of taking a large book (or a couple of books for extended vacations) I can buy a $6 book, pop the 6 oz device in my backpack, and hit the plane. Reply
BPB - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI am getting a couple Kindles for the kids. The problem for me is most books we want actually cost more in Kindle format than paperback or hardcover, especially if you are willing to buy used. Reply
ockky - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkthis is the whole reason why i've not swapped over to a kindle. i can buy used books and have them shipped to me for less than what i can pay for an e-book. you'd think the prices for e-books would be cheaper than paperback. i'd be willing to pay 'more' for an e-book...if they were cheaper than a new paperback Reply
BPB - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkMy Kindle order is for the new $99 Touch, so I may yet cancel as they don't ship till next month. I keep going back and forth, trying to decide if I want to pay more for books just to make it easier for the kids to read them. I'm looking at one book for the kids, it's $5 new in paperback, $5.50 used (like new) in hardcover, and $11 new in hardcover. Yet it is $10 in Kindle format. That's crazy to me. The only benny the Kindle gives is not having to use up space to store the books somewhere. But, the kids keep begging, so maybe we borrow from the library? Reply
drgigolo - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI just bought this on launch day, as it was the only one available for me in Norway. I don't see any downsides to this product. I NEVER have to type with it, and seeing as I just want to use it for reading, a touch screen, MP3-support, a good webbrowser... all of it would just be distractions from reading. The only thing I find myself doing once in a while, is check the clock through the meny while reading late at night.
If you want time off from everything else, from being online everywhere and just relax and read a book, the Kindle is awesome. The screen is fantastic for reading, the weight is good and the battery is equally good. Reply
Jaybus - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI have the WiFi-only gen 3 Kindle and am perfectly happy with it. When it needs to be replaced, I will replace it with something like this device. I use it daily. Battery lasts for weeks. Over the summer, I read several books on the beach in the blazing Florida sun with wet and sandy hands and had no trouble whatsoever. Try that with an LCD screen! Quite frankly, I do not want a touchscreen when a simple button is more robust. I don't need 3G, as I rarely am anywhere where WiFi is not available. After all, one only needs WiFi for a couple of minutes to get enough material to read for hours and hours. I have found that for e-readers, the cheapest Kindle available is far and away the superior device. Reply
KLC - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkWhy should a simple button necessarily be more robust than a touchscreen? There's no evidence that is true and in a bare bones $79 product I would assume the buttons would not be high quality. It may be that repetitive use would break that single button much faster than a touchscreen. Reply
Jaybus - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkDepends on the use. I use my Kindle outdoors, and when possible, at the beach. Wet sandy hands don't make the touchscreen stop working, but they sure do scratch it up. I've damaged my Droid's screen this way. Trust me. No screen can handle sand. The buttons on my Kindle have been pressed many thousands of times and work flawlessly. Maybe the Kindle does have good buttons, or maybe even cheap buttons are pretty good. I don't know. Reply
Terb83 - Thursday, October 27, 2011 - linkThanks for the information about the durability. I have been thinking about an e-reader for backpacking where the light weight is definitely important. I still haven't decided if the price of books is worthwhile yet but your information was helpful! Reply
Kobaljov - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThe 3G is not limited in the new Kindle? (e.g. the browser works only with WiFi, etc.) It was mentioned at the day of the introduction as far as I remember Reply
Bragabondio - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI bought one as a present and compared to kindle 3g (kindle keyboard now) the screen is indeed a somewhat less sharp (less contrast?). Waiting for the kindle touch to compare to my K3G. Reply
sgtrock1us - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThe lock-in to a single vendor for all book purchases. The second reason is the lack of .epub support which is rapidly becoming the default standard e-book format for everybody else. (Mind you, I know that the second reason is to enforce the first, but still. This is more than a little annoying when it would lock me out of so many resources.) Reply
drgigolo - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkCan't you convert .epub files to .mobi with Calibre? I got some books of iBooks on iTunes, converted them to .mobi and emailed them to my kindle adress. Voila, there they were on my Kindle when I turned on WLAN.
I do all the managing from my PC anyway. Don't see a reason to do any purchases on the device itself. Reply
thewhat - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkAgreed.
The lack of EPUB support alone makes me look elsewhere.
I don't care if I can convert and whatnot, it's also a matter of principle. I don't want Amazon to have a de facto monopoly in the ebook business, so that they can enforce their own standards. Especially since they also rip off writers who sell ebooks through Amazon. Reply
Mafoo - Saturday, October 22, 2011 - linkWell, the only concern I have with this regard, is if you think there is a chance Amazon will go out of business. I think that's extremely unlikely.
So if they don't, I can read the same book on a computer, Kindle, iOS device, Android, Windows Phone 7, BlackBerry, WebOS, and more.
I can not think of a device I might own and want to read a book on, that it doesn't work on. Hell, you can even put Android on the Nook and read it there.
This is why I buy all my books from Amazon (if they have them). While Apple is not going out of business, and I own all iOS devices at the moment, I have no idea what I will want to use as a tablet in 5 years. There is a good chance it will still be an iPad, but if it's not, I am 100% sure whatever it is, my Kindle books will be on it, and 100% sure my iBooks won't. Reply
gorash - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI had it... it wasn't that great and the 5-way controller started to squeak so I decided to return it. If you must get one then definitely wait for the touch instead, as using the 5-way controller can be a pain, much more so than you might have imagined. Even then I think the Kindle is pretty overrated, the UI is terrible, you're pretty much locked down to Amazon and it doesn't support epub.
Overall I think the e-ink at current stage is overrated, and you might just want to wait for the color 30FPS e-ink and its alternatives. Reply
lemonadesoda - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI'll get a Kindle as soon as the dpi is up at 200+ppi, getting closer to print quality and comparable to the display resolution of smartphones, and when Kindle can handle PDFs better, doing png, bmp and jpg native... even if still B&W. B&W is OK but file-format compatibility and resolution is weak. Reply
teiglin - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkWhat do you mean dpi? It's e-ink, not an LCD or OLED display. Look as closely as you like; you won't find any pixels.
PDF files don't render well, but PDFs are, by definition, meant for printing rather than electronic consumption. It's not an issue for me personally, and while it's certainly possible to convert a PDF to a better format, if you really read a lot of PDFs, you're better off with a tablet or an actual computer. Reply
charleski - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkYou certainly can see the pixels if you look close enough.
The 166dpi res of these devices is decent, but only about the resolution of newsprint,. The Kindle fudges things by displaying everything in a font that's been tweaked to match the pixel grid pretty closely. This works well, but it means everything looks the same and you lose the distinctiveness offered by the careful font choices seen in properly-typeset print.
ePub devices, unlike the Kindle, do offer the ability to change fonts, though most cheap-ass publishers refuse to license proper ones and just insert a free one. It's when you move away from the heavily-optimised Caecilia that you really start to see the stair-stepping and loss of fine serifs that are an unfortunate consequence of the middling resolution available at this size.
250+ dpi will be a definite improvement and there are signs that eInk is working to bring a proper high-res screen to the market. Reply
lemonadesoda - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkThe 6" diagonal display has a grid reference of 600 × 800 pixels which works out at approx 166 dpi density. There are 4-level grayscale levels on the original and 16-level grayscale levels on more recent Kindles.
The fact that you don't see sharply defined SQUARE pixels is due to the e-paper display. You need to think of them as slightly overlapping slightly randomly sized blobs in slightly inconsistent levels of darkness in slightly randomised positions. Let's call them dots rather than pixels to avoid an argument.
If you were drawing lines, or adding serifs to fonts, the effective resolution is actually lower than the 166dpi. ie. You COULD NOT achieve 83 black lines separated by 83 white gaps per inch. In terms of line drawing you are down to about 50-60 effective dpi. However, for pure optimised antialiased fonts the text looks amazing at medium and large font sizes. However, reduce font sizes and it rapidly deteriorates.
You might be more than satisfied with using the Kindle for reading plain text and books specifically designed for the Kindle. My usage scenario would be for reading existing materials, and specifically a library that is currently in .pdf or .doc format. My needs are different to yours. I like the display, I like the format, but I need file-format flexibility and the ability to show drawings. B&W is fine. Perhaps the next iteration of Kindle will work for me.
I found this http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2722. Nice comparative against newspaper, book and magazine print. Reply
Johnmcl7 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThat's quite a bit more powerful than I was expecting as I didn't think the Kindle would need much processing power and for a budget device I'd expect a cheaper proccessor.
John Reply
tipoo - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI've thought about that as well; most things would be limited by the page turn speed of e-ink anyways. Maybe for resizing text and whatnot though, that took a very long time to do on a second gen iPod Touch for instance, but appears to take almost none on my Nook Touch and presumably this. Reply
DanNeely - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkAt a guess the marginal cost became low enough for it to be worth the performance gains mentioned by tipoo; and if the decision to remove the web browser was made late in the design cycle providing additional power for it would have been a major driving factor. Reply
medi01 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkKudos for not mentioning K4 has worse screen than K3/ Reply
Andrew.a.cunningham - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkIt's in there, I just don't spend much time on it. I haven't used a K3 so I didn't feel comfortable doing more than mentioning it. Reply
Sabresiberian - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkReally, the cost is mostly in the "books", not the device, and what they've done here is made something that is cheaper - in QUALITY - with a hook price that makes you seem like you are spending less, while you still pay what amounts to a premium price for digital storage.
I'm all for people making money, but I just can't help comparing the cost of buying paperback - or even cheaper edition hard-bound - books to the $10 price of the downloaded book. The price of the "eBook" is relatively too high. Okay, it's still not much money, and that's why not very many people have complained (and it's electronic and "more convenient", so it should be more expensive, right? Umm, no.), but the cost of "printing and distribution" is so much smaller for the electronic package that I have a problem with the price of the "eBooks".
I might not have such a problem if I knew that the money was going to keep the same number of people employed and making a decent living, but you know that's not true; what's true is that less people are putting more money in their pockets because of Kindle. Again, I'm all for innovators, artists, and anyone who excels or just gets lucky getting rich, but we need a new way of thinking about how we do things in the "civilized" world, and charging more money for something that costs far less to produce isn't part of a good, new plan about how to do business in a way that supports a stable economy, stable for everyone.
;) Reply
tbutler - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI admit, one of my pet peeves about e-reader reviews is the cursory discussion of eInk quality, especially when coupled with the assumption that eInk is always better for reading.
I've owned two eInk devices - an older Sony PRS-505 and a more recent Sony PRS-350 - and to my eyes, the dark-grey-on-light-grey contrast is low enough that it's very hard to read indoors without bright, even lighting. (Very noticeably worse than even an old and yellowing paperback.) I've compared the PRS-350 side-by-side with a Kindle 2, Kindle 3, and Nook Touch, and there didn't seem to be any significant differences in screen quality. While the author noted that he didn't have a Kindle 3 to compare to, I would have liked to see at least some discussion of how this Kindle behaves in various lighting conditions. Reply
teiglin - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI find it pretty surprising that you can't tell the difference between the screens you mentioned. Though I've not used the Sony readers much, I own a Kindle 2 and a Kindle 3 and have used both the original Nook and Nook Touch fairly extensively, and I can quite easily rank the quality of contrast on those devices; improved contrast was the primary reason I bought a Kindle 3 after being mostly happy with my Kindle 2. Sometimes I had a little trouble seeing my Kindle 2 with a 40W light bulb about 20 feet away from my head and had to keep a decent angle to the light, but I can read my Kindle 3 in bed with a 10W CFL bulb about 10 feet away and never have any issue, regardless of how I turn over and block the light with my head/shoulders/arms, aside from the occasional glare angle the article mentioned. It's also especially obvious if I'm reading near sunset, as it has to get significantly darker before I need to go flip on a light. While I agree that e-ink today is worse than most paperbacks--though I'd argue that faded ink on well-yellowed pages can easily be worse--it's more than good enough.
Your comment about the assumption that e-ink is better for reading is interesting to me, because I'm always amazed when people tout tablets as "e-readers" with a straight face. I can't read on a tablet for more than an hour or so without noticeable eye strain, even at minimum brightness. The backlight is just so clearly inferior for a sustained reading experience that, even with e-ink from three years ago, I will pick the e-ink screen every time for text. Obviously the picture (har har) is different when you're talking about image or video content, but I don't imagine anybody would pick one of these up thinking "Great, I can load all my pictures in black and white now!" Reply
tbutler - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkWhat I find in a variety of circumstances:
* Outside on a bright, sunny day: No problem.
* Indoors in a room with multiple windows on a bright, sunny day: No problem.
* Indoors in the same room on an overcast day, no lights: Very hard to read. Paperback not perfect but readable.
* Indoors in a room with one window, bright sunny day: Very hard to read. Paperback not perfect but readable.
* Indoors in the same room, overcast: Impossible to read. Paperback hard to read.
* Indoors in room with bright overhead light: No problem.
* Indoors in room with no overhead light, one lamp: Readable if sitting with back to lamp, less than 5-6 feet away. Hard to read if that close with lamp to one side, or from over the shoulder 6-12 feet away. Impossible to read if lamp is front arc.
Since my apartment has exactly two rooms with overhead lighting - the kitchen and the bathroom - this is obviously an issue for me. :) I've also done a lot of travel for work, and most hotel rooms don't have overhead lighting either.
I've been e-reading on a number of devices over the years: Palm Pilot 1000, Palm III, Handspring Visor Deluxe, Palm 505, Palm Tungsten T & T5, Nokia 770 and N800, iPhone (both original and hi-res), Sony 505 and 350, iPad, and a Nook Color. eInk screens remind me of nothing so much as the 'improved' active matrix LCD screen on the Visor Deluxe (and the contemporary Palm IIIx). So it's possible my eyes have gotten used to backlit color displays - which have been on all of them but the Sony readers, from the Tungsten T on forward. With that caveat, I find the eyestrain caused by eInk's low contrast to be worse than eyestrain caused by backlighting; a good color LCD won't have as good contrast as a high-quality magazine or book, but even in a typical well-lit room I think it's better than eInk. Reply
plan99fromouterspace - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - link...or as a present for a child who you might not trust with $500 worth of gadget just yet. It may not appeal so much to our tech-savvy audience here at AnandTech, but it still fills an important entry-level position in Amazon's new Kindle lineup."
Wow don't I feel silly. I had a keyboard Kindle, then returned it upon buying the non-ad 4th Gen version for the simple fact that i use this reading device as a READING DEVICE. I don't make any notations, I don't need audio, and I don't surf the web. Also, the Touch version is no good for me because I don't feel like putting my hands on the screen all the time as well as the fact that touch screens aren't ideal for one-handed reading. If the Touch version had exterior page turning buttons I'd be all over it, but it doesn't. Also, I extensively tested both the keyboard and the non-keyboard for a period of about 2 weeks and I could not, for the life of me, see a difference in the quality of text.
In conclusion: ITS A READING DEVICE! You know, for READING! Reply
drgigolo - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkMy exact sentiments. I can read on this with very little light in the room. I don't see any pixels, so the dpi doesn't matter (dpi is one of the reasons I never bought an iPad 2 though).
I don't understand why people who want to read books would need touch input? Yay, smudged screen? Reply
vavutsikarios - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkWhen you say that it weights 6 ounces, what do you mean?
How much does an ounce weight? Reply
ViRGE - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - link1/16th of a pound, or roughly 28 grams. Reply
C300fans - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkIt is still too heavy for me. I would rather get a sony psr T1, which has only 168 gram. Reply
pyrthas - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkYou might want to do the math first. Reply
silverblue - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkI'll help - 6oz is approx. 168g.
Damn, I feel like I'm trolling. Reply
Jaybus - Friday, October 21, 2011 - link1 ounce is a force of around 0.278 Newtons. Reply
smakme7757 - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI've never owned a Kindle, but i have been using my Android phone (Desire Z) as my e-reader. I'm quite an avid reader and also an avid traveler. Carrying book has always been a pain in the butt,so the Kindle was something i've wanted for a long long time!
Living in Norway the Kindle Touch isn't available which left the basic model and buying this basic model wasn't due to money constraints, it was purely because it was the only one i could buy. After using it for a while i must admit that i really like it. Yes, it's a PITA to type on with the virtuel keyboard, but otherwise for reading i think it's fantastic.
Of course i've never had a Kindle so i can't compare, but i can say as a new Kindle user and only having that Kindle to choose from i am really pleased with it :) Reply
futurepastnow - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkThe author of the Blog Kindle post updated his post- he mis-read the label on the memory chip. It's actually 256MB. Reply
stash - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - link"belabored" is not the word you're looking for... Reply
meorah - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkKindle as bookcase. There comes a time in life where you have collected so many books in so many bookcases that you eventually have to buy a house with a "book room" to keep all of them together. The office and living room are already full of bookcases, your bedrooms have bookshelves wherever they fit, and you even keep books in boxes in the garage or in the attic. Your library of books just can't grow anymore without risking a book-tastrophe in your home.
In that scenario, kindle is by far the most cost-efficient solution, and it keeps book sprawl under control.
Plus even if you can afford to have a library room in your house, you can't take it with you on the plane or a road trip. Kindle at under $100 is invaluable. Reply
Mafoo - Saturday, October 22, 2011 - link"but since my iPhone always detected the progress I made on the Kindle I'd be more inclined to blame Apple's device than Amazon's."
To be more clear, the blame is for Amazons software that they developed for the Apple device, not the device itself. Reply
Wolfpup - Tuesday, December 06, 2011 - linkOne of the things I don't like about my Nook 2 is it doesn't do the page invert thing with every turn. That's a great visual cue that it's worked, and makes reading a lot easier-I don't have to waste as much brain power with "am I on the next page, or still the last one"?
I do like that the Nook 2 still has physical buttons, but they're really crummy, and basically have to be used with your thumbs.
I do wonder how the buttons are on this versus the Kindle 2 or 3. The 2's were pretty nice. 3s are too, except maybe too easy to trigger...I worry this is a step further in that direction, which could make it harder to use than the 3 is. Reply
cerbes - Thursday, December 29, 2011 - linkI was excited about getting a kindle and the price was reasonable. However, as soon as I hooked the kindle up to my laptop it died. I can not get my HP laptop to turn on and do anything now. I don't know what caused the kindle to crash my laptop but not happy. I am scared to hook the kindle up to our desktop computer. I afraid it will cause it to crash as well. Reply
TerdFerguson - Sunday, February 19, 2012 - linkI wasn't looking for yet another convergence device, so this Kindle was perfect for me. I, previously, had been buying Mass-Market Paperbooks for quite some time. After buying a few "normal" paperbacks and being amazed at how much easier I found them to read and hold, I went ahead and bought the Kindle. I had seen them before, and even having owned my own Kindle long enough to read a dozen books on it, I am amazed every time I use it at how easy it is to read. The text is so crisp and clear and easy to read that it's just amazing. If you desire a device on which to read, e-Ink is the way to go. Backlit LCDs aren't even comparable.
In terms of choosing which reader to buy, the choice was obvious to me - at least once I narrowed it down to being an Amazon product. The Fire, with its LCD screen, is not as comfortable for reading and the battery life is short enough that you are tethered to some form of a charger. The 3G functionality of some devices is more of a turn-off for me than a boon - I am more concerned about leaking data than I am about being able to download a book "on the fly." I mean, really... the most basic of Kindle devices can store thousands of books. I can't imagine ever having fewer than two unread books of interest installed at any given moment, and that should certainly be enough to "hold me over" until I can get to a PC or WiFi access point. The keyboard, audio, and interface differences were the toughest for me to reason out. Ultimately, though, I don't have any more desire to type using a tiny keyboard than I do to hunt and peck with a hat switch. The device is, for me, a means to read books comfortably, and the audio and keyboard do not assist in this endeavor. Quite the contrary, the difference in form-factor detracts from a sublimely comfortable handheld.
I am thrilled with my Kindle 4g, and I couldn't imagine being happier. Reply
Dudule14 - Saturday, April 14, 2012 - linkHi all
I have a kindle 4 but I wonder if the Touche feature is to great for 2 reasons :
1. smudges and so on (it's not the main reasaon I hesitate)
2. thumb movment on touch screen instead of only a press on a button on my kindle 4.
I wonder if the thumb repeated movement could be uncomfortable :
- thumb in the vision field of the text page
- less fast than a press on a button
- at last, repeated pain (think to the repeated press on a mouse, to do a movment that is not a natural gesture)
- in a word : general comfort while turning pages
Could some user of the kindle touch give his impresssions on this point ?
Thanks in advance Reply


text:
The iPhone 3GS Hardware Exposed & Analyzedby Anand Lal Shimpi on 6/10/2009 12:00 AM EST
- Posted in
- Smartphones
- Mobile
65 Comments
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araczynski - Monday, June 15, 2009 - linkblah blah blah same crappy gameboy resolution screen blah blah blah talk to nokia blah blah blah.
maybe if half the price of the stupid thing went into the device instead of paying for all the worthless marketing they'd have a killer device that i would gladly pay $130 a month for for unlimited data service.
ah well, maybe in a few years. Reply
punkball - Saturday, June 13, 2009 - linkI dunno why ,i have a good feeling
not knowing much at all about (only what seems to be a negative
evaluation on parts; by the community).
This phone its main uphearst performace being, we'll see a comprised Flash/Flex player on the iTunes store ?a good deal onwards agreed on a Mac-device friendly version of the Flash Player?? Anyone else hoping/caring? Reply
lateef - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkdoes anyone know if the radio/wireless chipset been upgraded in the 3gs rather than a tweak Reply
iwodo - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkArh, interesting question. I think everyone were too concentrated on its CPU, Memory and GPU and forgot the most fundamental / important issues.
To be honest iPhone is rather weak for its Radio Reception. I think this is partly due to Infineon are new to Mobile Chipset.
Is there an updated chipset to fix iPhone Comparatively poor quality reception?
( Last time i heard the 7.2Mbps speed increase has to do with Firmware unlocking, so i am not sure if the chipset has been updated ) Reply
PhilipOrr - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkWas talking with the Apple engineers at WWDC which technical data sheets to look up concerning the GPU within the new iPhone. It's the PowerVR SGX 535.
This chip is one up from the Palm Pre which is the PowerVR SGX 530.
The difference between these is more video based than anything else. 535 has hardware acceleration for H.264 encode/decode, MPEG 4 and JPEG. It also handles HD content to 720p in real time.
These specs seem to give a hint to what Apple are planning for future upgrades of the iPhone or other device. Suggesting, that if your developing for the 3GS then you're already developing for the next generation too.
jasaero - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkMy guess is that the 535 was used more for optimizing the video option on the phone than for any future planned uses. Not required to do video, but is extremely useful in reducing file sizes of video output and may help with some of the video editing functionality it supossedly has. So far Apple hasn't really preplanned any added functionality so much as reacted to demand for certain features they seemed to have left out useablity and performance trade off. Copy, cut, paste being the most glaring example. Basically I am quite doubtful they have a handset like the Omnia HD that probably uses this same chip in their sights just yet. Reply
iwodo - Thursday, June 11, 2009 - linkI really hope anand do some detail article on Mobile Tech. MIPS, ARM, difference between ARMv6 and v7. SnapDragon and OMAP. I mean if iPhone uses a SOC that is 90% the same as TI's OMAP, why not just buy it from OMAP? Do different implementation of ARM matters? How does Tegra compare to SGX, what about Mani ( ARM ) 's graphics department?
There are about 10 dozens more questions i hope anand could answer. The truth is, as a tech news reader, i haven't been as excited as this for a long time. PC are already way too powerful then 90%+ of our needs. That is why Netbook are so popular. They are cheap, and gets the job done.
The next battle, and most interesting development in the next decade will be on Mobile front. Where ARM and PowerVR dominate. PC tech are used to Intel and ATI/Nvidia so ARM and PowerVR's tech are Alien to us.
I really hope there will be more in depth article about Mobile Technology. The only thing that interest me in PC is development of SSD. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkI've been dabbling in it for a while but I think I agree with you. Such a comparison may be necessary. I'm going to start chasing some of these technologies and see where I end up. If I find something sufficiently interesting, I'll be sure to share :)
Take care,
Anand Reply
iwodo - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkThanks. Hoping for more ARM info soon.
Regards Reply
AnnonymousCoward - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkI agree. Apple should be buying OMAP instead of the ASIC. I think digital camera companies will be going that route too. Reply
jasaero - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkI am guessing Apple gets a better deal with Samsung as I think most of the flash in iPods was from them prior to iPhone. TI may make flash memory, but pretty sure they don't touch Samsung volume. From what I can gather also the Samsung ASIC and OMAP are pretty much the same anyhow or atleast have pretty close ARM/IM SoC matched lines. Reply
jasaero - Thursday, June 11, 2009 - linkI am with you 100% on this. If you goto page 5 of these comments I linked to some good info on what is behind snapdragon and qualcomm's plans now that they own AMD/ATI handheld graphics IP. They also spent 100's of millions making their cortex core more powerful than the competition also. I am with you on Anand doing a more in depth look at the competing offerings here using his connections to get info tough to find for us. Its intersting stuff as this market is more IP oriented, but Qualcomm, intel and probably a lot of others add their own IP as they package these things in SoC's. Reply
iwodo - Friday, June 12, 2009 - linkYes I read it. On paper Qualcomm seems to have an edge on everything. ATI powered Graphics, Better then Cortex A8 design, and expertise in Mobile Wireless Chipset.
However it doesn't seems any Manufacture are using their chips. From the charts Mainly Japaneses and Korean ( LG ) based phone maker. Given LG recently switched side to Non Qualcomm based to due to cost issues. We will see even less QualComm chip in Global Market since Japaneses Handset are not exported and unusable outside Japan. Reply
Barack Obama - Thursday, June 11, 2009 - linkWas waiting to see what the fuss about Iphone 3G S was about. If I wasn't already tied down to a 2 year contract I'd buy one.
Do you think Apple will gain dominance over the phone market as they seemingly are or other companies will get their feet in the door? Apple is looking at a Windows-like monopoly of the mobile phone market at the moment! Reply
anandtech02148 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkthese smartphones will eventually make PC, laptop, & netbook less rellevant, Apple already has 50,000 apps just for iphone, do they even have that much apps for their own macbook line?
Intel,Amd & Nvidia is becoming a niche, with consoles and smartphone taking their customers away little by little.
the only weakness to smartphone is how badly these cartel cellular operate. Get your acts together At&T and get aggressive broadband roll out.
Mazik - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - link"If Apple would just get their pre-ordering system working right I might not even have to camp out this year..."
...you can pre-order on att.com Reply
snookie - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - link"Apple could be their own worst enemy with this faster hardware, and they have been seen to drop legacy support quite quickly already (Snow Leopard anyone?), things that other people can't get away with."
Apple drop legacy support quite easily? No. You don't know anything about the history of Mac OS if you say that. Google Rosetta for one. Look at how long people are able to continue to install the latest Mac OS on old hardware for another. SL is a major rewrite of huge portions of the OS that Windows 7 could only dream about. It's the kind of rewrite that Microsoft doesn't have the skills, the will, or organization to do.
"Palm has the Pre, it has faster hardware."
Not anymore. Read the article.
"The problem here is that either Apple developers are going to have to develop for the (s)lowest common denominator (20million units), and either risk annoying customers by making them unable to use the stuff/forcing them to upgrade, or making applications which aren't as impressive as they could be."
Palm wishes they could have this "problem'". Palm has every little money in the bank and is in league with Sprint which is the most dubious cell company in existence right now. They make AT&T look good. They have terrible dev tools, have already pissed of a lot of developers, and you can only write web apps for the Pre. 8GB of ram and the terrible keyboard are showstoppers for me.
Developing for iPhone or Pre is a quite easy decision. iPhone has the mass of the marketplace and a real SDK. Palm has neither and may never have.
"While Leopard had nearly as shaky/buggy a start as Vista (though 99.9% of Mac users won't admit it), Leopard has reportedly morphed into a very stable and serviceable system."
You must have dreamed this. Leopard had nowhere near the shaky start of Vista. I used both Leopard and Vista pre-beta and RC for many months. Its really amazing the things people say with no idea what they are talking about.
"The greatest weakness of the iPhone is the controls."
Why, because it doesn't have the kind of controls you are used to? Developers have done amazing things with multi-touch and the accelerometer.
"The average phone user doesn't care much about games and game controls"
I don't know what you consider average. Apple does in fact care about games and the iPhone and plenty of iPhone users buy them. Enough for a very robust marketplace. Check the numbers.
I'm interested to hear about the radios and if we can expect better, stronger, clearer signals.
michaely - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - link2 cents? All you gave was a penny. I laughed at your post so much. Could you be anymore of a fanboy? You purposely go out of your way to diss Microsoft and Palm, but completely ignore the points you quoted. Snow Leopard is Intel only (READ: no G4/G5). Where is the support? You are talking about the past, we are in the present and looking to the future.
The sad thing is you probably don't even own a iPhone. You are a sad excuse of a fanboy. PERIOD. Reply
jasaero - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkAnand,
You hint ARM and Imagination Tech own the mobile procesing space here, but wondering if you have any write ups in the works that compare the PowerVR based intgrated GPU offerings to th also popular Qualcomm ATI based cores? Also in January Qualcomm purchased the ATI handheld unit and got rights to all related IP along with some staff to keep said mobile ATI core competitive.
To me this could mean an advantage for qualcomm 's Snapdragon if PowerVR's cores aren't a lot better than Qualcomms ATI or PowerVR offering VERY affordable licencing? I know this goes outside the iPhone 3Gs review a bit, but it will have probably ALOT of snapdragon competitors soon! And some of these Snapdragon competitors could show up with even more mature Android.
jasaero - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkHere is some good info on the unique ARMv7 ISA based Scorpion core used in snapdragon! I for the life of me can't find info on the ATI handheld core that Qualcomm uses and now owns?? They seem to have invested more in the ARMv7 ISA than their more or less standard Cortex competition. Of particular interest is the lower power and double width SIMD unit.
Now who can find info on this ATI core? Reply
jasaero - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkWoops here's the link to the scorpion core info.
http://www.insidedsp.com/Articles/tabid/64/article...">http://www.insidedsp.com/Articles/tabid...-Reveals... Reply
jasaero - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkMore interesting info on Qualcomm's offering and smartphone SoC plan in general.
http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew_bnry/pdf/brew_2007/T...">http://brew.qualcomm.com/brew_bnry/pdf/brew_2007/T... Reply
electricgrape - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkAny word on the lowly ipod touch? I've got Sero and I'll be damned if I'm going to leave $30/month just to pick up an iphone....so I use a touch :-) Reply
poohbear - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linki liked this review, especially the comparisons to 486 & older gpus, u know your crowd well.;) i actually prefer computer reviews but this was'nt abd at all. thanks again. Reply
tonjohn - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkAs an iPhone 3G owner, do I stick with what I have or do I upgrade?
Will the 3GS really be worth the extra money for current 3G owners to upgrade? Reply
rageguy34 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkI wouldn't, I currentlt have an iPhone 3G and the new features even if 2x faster doesn't seem worth me spending $400 to upgrade. I'll just wait till next year when my contract expires and I will qualify for the new iPhone Reply
stuclark - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - link..all very interesting, but what about other smartphone platforms, such as Symbian's S60, which have handsets which far out-perform the likes of the iPhone and Pre?
Take for example Samsung's i8910 handset, which runs S60 and is technically superior to pretty much anything else on the market. Here's it's spec sheet: http://innovator.samsungmobile.com/prd/sym/product...">http://innovator.samsungmobile.com/prd/...1%26plat.... Reply
winterspan - Thursday, June 11, 2009 - linkSo tell me, what are these S60 handsets that "far out-perform" the iPhone 3GS and Pre?
The Samsung i8910/Omnia HD uses the exact same TI OMAP3430 chip as the PRE. The OMAP3430 has the same 600Mhz Cortex-A8 and PowerVR SGX as the iPhone, although the iPhone may be SGX520 where the OMAP3430 uses the SGX530.
Quit spreading BS! Reply
rageguy34 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkAnand,
Why doesn't apple use the tegra instead of the ARM processor, does tegra use up too much power? Reply
psychobriggsy - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkTegra is ARM11, so it won't be as fast. No idea how the GPUs compare though. If Apple are designing an in-house product that uses A8 or A9 with NEON, they probably wanted to use the A8 earlier.
Also there is the matter of support for Apple to use it, having to learn a new SoC (who knows - this SoC could be pin compatible with the old one) and so on. Otherwise they could have used the TI OMAP that the Pre uses... Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkIn addition to the ARM11 core, I believe the GPU side of tegra does use too much power for something like the iPhone. I can't find detailed specs for NVIDIA's low end Tegra, but Wikipedia lists ~4W for the higher end model - that's simply too much. We need to see values in the mW range.
Take care,
Anand Reply
peccavi - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkFrom what I gathered, Apple is increasing support for iPhone peripherals. Could this allow for a controller / docking cradle for the iPhone? Imagine 4 buttons and a couple of directional pads on either end of the phone in landscape mode. Would make for a great little gaming unit. Reply
eburnette - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkOne thing that wasn't clear from the article is how certain are you about the information? Is it just speculation at this point until somebody gets one and tears it down? Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkI'm very certain. The info comes from sources very close to the licensees for both the CPU and GPU. Without hardware in hand it's impossible to be 100% sure, but what Apple has implied lines up well with what I've been told.
The ~2x gains in app performance would only come from a faster processor. Apple's options there are to either use a much higher clocked ARM11 or move to the Cortex A8. You can't get 2x out of a 200MHz speed boost to an ARM11 core, so that leaves the A8.
The graphics side I'm also very sure about, although I can't post why :)
Take care,
Anand Reply
psychobriggsy - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThanks for confirming the rumours.
I think you should point out that the CPU and GPU are actually on the same die, indeed everything apart from the RAM will be on that die. Some parts of the article imply that the CPU and GPU simply share the package, but could be separate dies.
A little sad that the GPU is the SGX520 - the lowest end, but it's still so much better than the MBX it doesn't matter. Shame you can't snaffle a die shot from Samsung ;) maybe the graphics are by comparison quite large, even considering the A8 with L2 cache.
The crypto co-processor that's been added is certainly being used, as hardware crypto was mentioned in the keynote. That will aid iPhone SSL web browsing speed I'd hope.
Also the A9 is out-of-order, so comparable to a Nano, as the A8 is comparable to Atom and the ARM11 is comparable to a very fast 486. Reply
Simon F - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - link[quote]Paired with this CPU is a PowerVR MBX-Lite GPU core. This GPU, like the CPU, is built on a 90nm process and is quite simple. The GPU does support hardware transform and lighting but it's fully fixed function, think of it as a DirectX 6/7 class GPU (Riva TNT2/GeForce 256).[/quote]
This is not strictly correct. IIRC the MBX model in the iPhone has a programmable vertex shader that exceeds DX8. The pixel pipeline, though, is fixed function. Having said this, I'm not sure if the programmable aspects of the vertex shader are exposed in the iPhone interface. Reply
faxon - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linki have by and large stayed away from apple my entire life, but given their recent innovation on the consumer devices front and their virtual monopoly on the high capacity music players market with the ipod, i have been keeping them on my radar none the less. when a family member picked up an iphone3G when we switched to AT&T for our wireless service, i was actually rather impressed at simply how much better it was than the blackjack 2 i picked up, at just about everything. the only complaint i had was in its texting performance, but with a cloned SIM card i could get around that simply by pulling out my blackjack 2 instead. I have been looking at getting an iphone since i use my phone for mobile browsing excessively, and even using opera the blackjack 2 doesnt come close in ease of use compared to the old iphone on edge. with the new 3Gs also supporting picture texting (a requirement of my GF) i may just look into this if i get the promotion im gaming for by the end of the summer. Reply
sxr7171 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkI avoided the iPhone for so long and I even bought one to jailbreak and play with, but it wasn't until OS 3.0 that it became my daily phone. The Exchange support on it beats most other smartphones. Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkI'd say high capacity music players are the only segment of mp3 players where the Ipods are not dominant. The only high capacity models are the classic/video ones, which don't seem to be that popular and don't appear to have been upgraded nearly as recently as the touch and nano. Reply
Dennis Travis - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkAnand, thanks so much for your preview. I can't wait for your review after you get a hold of the phone. I am really interested in battery life. During the keynote I thought they said something about a new battery and that was why more battery life. I guess we will soon know for sure.
Thanks again! Reply
sxr7171 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkA Dreamcast in the palm of your hand. Please port some Dreamcast titles to this phone. I would order mine this minute. Reply
squngy - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkSo how would these systems compare with the PSP or DS?
If we're talking about games, then it would make sense to know where it stands compered to other popular gaming devices.
Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkCompared to the DS, the iPhone 3G (and 3GS) are both way more powerful. That thing uses an ARM9E based processor and runs at no more than 133MHz I believe. The Cortex A8 should run circles around it. According to Wikipedia, the DS' "GPU" can reach a peak of 120K triangles per second...the first iPhone is capable of 1M per second. The iPhone is a superior hardware platform from a specs standpoint.
The PSP is a bit more difficult of a comparison. It's got two MIPS cores plus a GPU. I haven't looked deeply into its architecture but I believe the 3GS should still be faster.
Memory size is a huge limiting factor. The PSP has 2MB of video memory, 32MB of application memory and 4MB of embedded DRAM? The DS is even worse, it only has 4MB of RAM and < 1MB of video memory!
The original iPhone had, what, 128MB? Everyone is expecting 256MB from the next-generation model.
It's only a matter of time before handheld consoles are replaced by something like the iPhone. Console makers have to subsidize the cost of their hardware across games, cellular providers already subsidize the hardware costs of smartphones. There's huge potential here.
Take care,
Anand Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Thursday, June 11, 2009 - linkUpdate - digging more into the PSP specs it's quite possible that the PSP is a faster gaming platform. It's difficult comparing CPUs since we're talking about a cross-architecture comparison, but on the GPU side the PSP appears to have more raw power. How that translates into real world performance compared to the PowerVR SGX in the 3GS remains to be seen. The 3GS most definitely has an efficient core.
The memory comparison is still valid, especially with the 3GS at 256MB of RAM things get even more interesting.
Take care,
Anand Reply
Jovec - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkWireless companies don't subsidize anything - they simply have an absolutely huge markup that then can then discount you $50 or $100 with a contract. Reply
ViRGE - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkDepending on whether we're talking about the DS or the DSi, the main CPU is 66mhz or 133mhz respectively (always operating at 66mhz in DS mode). Both come with the ARM7 co-processor, which runs at 33mhz. The RAM value for the DS is right, meanwhile the DSi has 16MB. RAM's a bit iffy of course, the DS isn't running an operating system in the background and Slot-1 affords some in-place use of assets (albeit not true in-place execution like the GBA that let it get away with virtually no RAM). At any rate, the DS is still less powerful than the iPhone 3GS obviously.
You're correct about the PSP, it has 2 MIPS processors (one for CPU use, one as a graphics processor) that can run between 22mhz and 333mhz. Most games for it are at 222mhz, a small number of titles push it to 333mhz. In raw CPU performance the 3GS is likely ahead, in GPU performance however it's entirely possible the PSP is still in the lead. When properly optimized the PSP is capable of near-PS2 graphics, which looking at the SGX's specs may be just a bit more than it can do. But we'll have to see what's done with it.
The more limiting factor however is power consumption. The DS Lite is a champ here - on the lower screen brightness settings it gets over 10 hours running at full tilt. That's Nintendo's tradeoff on performance and power. The PSP isn't nearly as good, but even when everything is cranked up it can do about 4-5 hours (I'm going to ignore the UMD here), more if it's a 222mhz game.
Both of these are well in excess of what the iPhone 3G got on its most demanding games. Even though the 3GS is faster, games aren't going to offer it much of an opportunity to drop to a lower power state since they're tasks that never end. For a 3G game I'd expect better battery life (50%, so 3 hours maybe?), but for a 3GS game it's likely going to be even worse.
As you note the 3GS can eat more power, so if devs try to max it out (and they will, there's 20 years of console history that says shiny sells) it's reasonable to expect that it'll crash harder than even the 3G. Unless the SBX eats significantly less power, the worst case battery life scenario for the 3GS is going to be far worse than any dedicated handheld on the market, and worse than the existing 3G and iPod Touch.
To that end, unless Apple can reign in on developers and make them NOT max out the hardware, I don't see handhelds going away any time soon. You'll get some convergence (e.g. solitaire) but the battery/hardware balance for a phone and a handheld are completely different. A gaming platform that only gets a couple of hours is a Sega Game Gear (or a Nomad, for the sadistic), and at least that had removable batteries. Reply
psychobriggsy - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkConfirmation of 600MHz and 256MB RAM: http://www.t-mobile.nl/iphone/specificaties.html?W...">http://www.t-mobile.nl/iphone/specificaties.html?W... Reply
sxr7171 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkI GS must be faster than the N95's 3D acceleration as well, I know the 3G was slower, but this looks much faster. I've seen 3D demos on the N95 and wow they were impressive. At that 320x240 resolution it probably performed better than the PSP. Reply
fyleow - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThe greatest weakness of the iPhone is the controls. Developers can get pretty innovative with the touch screen and accelerometer but really they can only do so much. id did a great job with Wolfenstein on the iPhone but the controls are still not as precise as physical buttons, and the controls take up the already limited screen estate of the phone.
Nintendo threw as many input methods as possible with the mic, touch screen, physical buttons, and now camera. They also put in dual screens. The result is that developers could get wildly creative and I think it has been key to the DS' success because it allowed for some pretty innovative games.
I've yet to see many "serious" games for the iPhone; most appear to be catered to very casual gaming. There's a huge market for that as evidenced by the Wii, but it's not ready to displace the dedicated hand held consoles yet.
Yeah we'll probably see convergence happen down the road, but not in this or the next generation.
mesiah - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThe average phone user doesn't care much about games and game controls, so I don't really see apple or palm incorporating these into their phones and cluttering up the interface. But all it would take is for a company to create a peripheral that, say, the iphone snaps into and docks with that has an analog stick, some buttons, and some hand grips. Could even make it so it folds up when not in use. Something like that could really open up possibilities for gaming on iphone or pre. Just thinking about it makes me a little giddy hehe. Nintendo hand helds have always been too cheesy for me, but I can't bring myself to spend big money on a psp. Now if I can justify it with "but, its a phone and so much more." maybe my conscience would say "hey, your right! Go ahead and buy it." Reply
HelToupee - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThere's been one in the works for more than a year. (http://www.icontrolpad.com/)">http://www.icontrolpad.com/) They've been stalling, though, and apple's releasing of new models every year is hurting, too. They originally were just aiming for jailbroken phones / ipods, but now want to enable full SDK support. I have cash set aside to buy one, if they'd just put them on sale... Reply
mesiah - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkGlad to see someone is working on this. From the video on the sight it looks like the latency on the controls is kind of an issue, and it looked like it wouldn't accept multiple button presses at the same time i.e. forward and right simultaneously. Could just be an issue with the way the interface with the iphone works, although the multiple button thing could just be me :P also, would like to see an analog stick. The days of on/off style movement controls are long gone. Reply
Lonyo - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThey've had the iPhone, and the iPhone 3G.
They've sold quite a lot of them, using the same hardware.
Now they are releasing a new product with faster hardware.
Palm has the Pre, it has faster hardware.
The problem here is that either Apple developers are going to have to develop for the (s)lowest common denominator (20million units), and either risk annoying customers by making them unable to use the stuff/forcing them to upgrade, or making applications which aren't sa impressive as they could be.
The Pre has the advantage of being out later, so everything has the same base point (although it has no install base or history yet).
While it's good Apple have improved their hardware, it will be interesting to see how the handle the software side (after all, they have been forcing programs to be forwards compatible with something which was unreleased at the time - OS3.0).
Apple could be their own worst enemy with this faster hardware, and they have been seen to drop legacy support quite quickly already (Snow Leopard anyone?), things that other people can't get away with. Reply
str1f3 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThe problem with the Pre is that it's not meant for gaming. The SDK is only HTML and Javascript. There won't be any serious gaming on it. In the mobile phone area Apple is pretty much to themselves. Reply
Shadowself - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkActually, I don't mind that Snow Leopard is going to be Intel only. With it coming out in September I would not suggest that anyone other than the bleeding edge crowd upgrade to Snow Leopard until October or November at the earliest. That makes the oldest Intel based Mac almost four years old.
If I were still running G4s or G5s (PowerPC based) systems as of this coming November I clearly don't *need* the performance enhancements of a full 64-bit kernel and drivers, OpenCL or Grand Central Dispatch.
While Leopard had nearly as shaky/buggy a start as Vista (though 99.9% of Mac users won't admit it), Leopard has reportedly morphed into a very stable and serviceable system. If you're keeping your Mac for 5+ years, sticking with Leopard might be a great option. Reply
sc3252 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkI think I read somewhere that developers for the Ipod would put in options to enable for the faster models. So you just check the box if you have a faster cpu and you get the cooler looking graphics. Reply
Pirks - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThe day WoW comes to iPhone is the day when I gonna buy the little bastard. I guess this will happen next year or so. I can almost hear Blizzard devs steaming away, downloading iPhone SDK and buyng more and more Macs. This thing is gonna freakin ROCK. Reply
sc3252 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkNot now. The gpu and CPU are still way to slow to play anything like world of Warcraft, just look at some of the demos of the openpandora which uses the same CPU/GPU combo, it runs quake 3 around 22fps from what I can see and most of us now how much of a pushover that game is.
I would expect that the next generation omap 4 might be able to run it being a dual core 1Ghz, but I would think it would still need a faster GPU. Also you have to imagine trying to play a game like world of warcraft with those controls, it would be terrible. You might see a game like eve do it since the game developers are very forward thinking, but not Activision blizzard. Reply
Digitalhell - Wednesday, July 08, 2009 - linkI've never seen Quake3 compiled for CortexA8 and OGL 2.0ES. The best Q3 currently available is actually designed for TI Omap 2/Samsung 6400 which are based on Arm11 processor core and Ogl 1.1 ES. Reply
monomer - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkWhile I don't see Blizzard releasing a mobile version of WoW anytime soon, just imagine the amount of time you could waste if they simply released an Auction House app. Reply
Rindis - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkMaybe Blizz could rework their Molten Core mini-game for the console to be on the iPhone?
~_^ Reply
jelifah - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkIn addition to an Auction House app, what about...
Crafting app
In-game messaging app
Grind this monster app
Grind this daily quest app
...Okay, the last two were just me being silly Reply
aeternitas - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkYou make it sound like wow is a hard to play. Every class in that game can be played with 2 buttons. Reply
piroroadkill - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkHo ho ho, so incredibly wrong and unfunny Reply
sxr7171 - Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - linkThink resolution. Almost twice the pixels on the pandora. Reply


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