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Transcend SSD320 & SSD720 (256GB) Reviewby Kristian Vättö on 1/25/2013 11:31 AM EST
34 Comments
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Rick83 - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkI have two SSDs that were reasonable unique when I got them, both from Transcend, so I am not sure how you can complain about that.
One is an IDE Flash module, and the other is a 44pin IDE 2.5"SSD. Both use SLC flash.
They were in the industrial/module market quite early, and quite strongly.
Adding some cheaply implemented Sandforce drives allows them probably to sell more volume, and thus get better pricing on flash. I'm not sure if that is their main market though.
Meanwhile, there is slightly more competition in IDE SSDs, but then that market is also not going to grow very much. Of course there are also SSD and USB modules available, so that's also an interesting niche, where there is a different market situation, than for "mainstream" SSDs.
Finally, I consider the Transcend brand to be relatively strong in the flash memory market, they've been present for quite a while.
Customer support in Europe is also reasonably good. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkI'm aware that Transcend has "niche" products that are aimed for very specific uses. What I meant, however, was that their mainstream (mainly 2.5" SATA) lineup is not very special. Like I said, there are probably a dozen manufacturers with similar SandForce SSD lineups.
The final part of the article was merely a general observation of the current SSD market, I didn't aim it specifically at Transcend (it's something I've been wanting to say for a while). Transcend does have fairly large presence in Europe (I'm from Finland myself) when it comes to SD cards and USB sticks, but not really in SSDs (then again, SSDs aren't everyday items yet, so that matters too).
Overall I'd just like to see more non-SF SSDs. You can't really gain any major market share with SandForce drives anymore, there are too many competitors. Reply
kmmatney - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkIt is nice that they include a toolbox. I have a few SSDs in Windows XP machines at work, and I like being able to manually TRIM the drive. I buy Samsung and Intel SSDs just for the toolboxes they provide, but this would be a viable option now as well. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkKeep in mind that the TRIM or secure erase functions in the toolbox do not work, like I mentioned in the article. Reply
Death666Angel - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkIt's really sad that most of these SF based drives aren't even that much cheaper (if at all) compared to the big brand names you mentioned. Reply
Samus - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkRight. There's no logical reason to buy a sandforce drive when the Samsung 830/840 and Crucial M4 have the same (or lower) price with superior reliability and relatively identical performance.
Then there is the 840 Pro which has ridiculous performance and presumably excellent reliability.
Don't get me wrong though, I think the Intel SSD 330/335 is a great value and it is the only Sandforce drive I'd buy. Every OCZ SF drive I, my family, or friends, have ever had, has inexplicably failed. Reply
speculatrix - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkHaving experienced OCZ technical support when trying to resolve linux driver problems with their Revo cards (ongoing for 3 months with tgem holding onto $1000's of worth of cards) I shall never buy an OCZ product ever again.
They fail to communicate or use their own ticketing system effectively, pronounce testing done when it hasn't, and generally all we feel is that our time and money has been wasted. Reply
embzyk - Sunday, January 27, 2013 - linkI see write amplification less than 1.0 a logical reason, and the reason why every SSD I buy is sandforce based. The first one I ever bought died, but its replacement and 7 others are going strong - including 4 from OCZ. Reply
twotwotwo - Friday, January 25, 2013 - link"The client SSD market currently has more manufacturers than it can feed in the long run."
If the fixed costs are low enough, it may take the small ones a long time to go away--if everyone pays the sameish rate for NAND, controller licenses, etc., they may be more like PC builders than HDD makers.
If that changed significantly--say, if SandForce and other competitive controllers were bought by certain makers who used them exclusively--that math could change quickly. Reply
hfm - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkI bought one of the 512GB SSD720 a while back because it was the cheapest 500MB/s 512GB SSD at the time I bought it (paid $399, walked to B&H to get it). I have been extremely happy with it. The Samsung 512GB drive was much more expensive at the time. My primary use case for it is gaming laptop, so I felt the cost increase for a better drive would see a negligible boot/load time increase.
Of course I keep it backed up by cloning to a second spinner in the laptop and then again to my nas, so I don't completely trust it's long term reliability. It's been bullet proof and screaming fast so far. Reply
paul878 - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkFor a second I thought they were 320G and 720G drives. Reply
Azurael - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkSo what's the difference between a Sandisk Extreme SSD and a Transcend SSD720? How many more identical SSDs can the market support? Reply
Flying Goat - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkIf you tried to skip the drives over a lake, you'd find that one was most likely designed with aerodynamics in mind, while the other was not. Sadly, we're just never going to see the sort of truly complete feature comparison at AnandTech that covers that sort of thing. :) Reply
gammaray - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linki dont know, but i got the SanDisk extreme 240gb home and its ultra fast and paid 160$ on sale for it :D Reply
embzyk - Sunday, January 27, 2013 - link9.5mm vs 7mm height Reply
Egg - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkThe Transcend SSD720 256GB achieves a busy time of just over half that of the Samsung SSD 840 Pro 256GB, and it's missing a decimal place.
This seems highly suspect. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkOh, you're right, there was a typo. It should've been 362 instead of 162. Fixed! :-) Reply
iwod - Friday, January 25, 2013 - linkSSD
1st Gen - SATA ; Response Time Reduction Compared to HDD
2nd Gen - SATA II; Higher Seq Read Write
3rd Gen - SATA II; Better Random IO
4th Gen - SATA III; Overall Improvement to both Seq and Random
5th Gen? I think Next Gen we need SATA Express and something similar to Intel's Consistent I/O Performance. Reply
Tech-Curious - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkEh, there's still a fair amount of head room on the SATA 3 interface. Wouldn't expect PCIe to become the norm for at least another two generations. Reply
Tech-Curious - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkSorry, misread your comment, iwod. Still, even if sequential speeds remain more or less stagnant, there's a lot of room left to improve random read/write with SATA 3. Reply
Slash3 - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkI picked up one of these (128GB SSD320) when they were about half of the stated market price ($75) during a holiday sale, to put in my Lenovo X230 subcompact laptop. Works great in that capacity, is leaps and bounds above the performance of the stock HDD and adds a margin of shockproofing to a laptop that sees a lot of travel time. At higher prices, it's not as clear cut. If they manage to keep the prices competitive, it's not a bad alternative for a system that needs a basic SSD. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkYup, the regular SSD 840, not the Pro. Reply
dj christian - Friday, February 01, 2013 - linkWhy not the Pro version? Reply
Scour - Saturday, February 16, 2013 - linkBecause the Pro is much more expensive? Reply
killerbunnies - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkWhere is the consistency performance for the last two SSD articles?
And when can we expect the Intel 520 series 240GB SSD to be included in those graphs? Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkThere is no point in testing performance consistency with every model. We've tested performance consistency with Intel SSD 335 before, which tells us how SandForce based drives perform. There are no dramatic differences between SandForce based drives, hence we only test consistency when dealing with more unique SSDs.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6428/corsair-neutron... Reply
Nickel020 - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkI would have thought that the lower spare area would have an impact on performance consistency. Do you not think that will be the case or is the capacity set apart for RAISE not usable as spare area? Reply
Kristian Vättö - Sunday, January 27, 2013 - linkHere are a few graphs of Intel SSD 335 with 25% OP:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7934241/25%25%20OP%20non-... Reply
Nickel020 - Sunday, January 27, 2013 - linkThnaks, but I don't quite get it. 25% OP is more than usual, so performance should be more consistent at best, or the same at the worst. The Transcends have less OP though, and I was wondering how you think that would affect consistency? Reply
Kristian Vättö - Sunday, January 27, 2013 - linkOh, sorry, misunderstood your post (I thought you were asking for how more OP would affect the IO consistency on a SandForce drive).
Anyway, Transcend only has RAISE disabled - the actual space for OP is the same ~7%. RAISE should not impact consistency because it's just parity data (i.e. the blocks are not empty). However, I haven't tested this so I can't say for sure. Will definitely test, though, didn't even think about it from this angle. Reply
Beenthere - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkMany enthusiasts base their PC hardware purchases strictly on synthetic benches, which is laughable when many folks have no clue the benches are not necessarily accurate or representative of the actual performance of the hardware. It doesn't matter if it's an SSD, RAM, mobos, HDDs or other products, the benches can be very misleading.
I defy anyone to accurately tell the difference in system performance in a blind test... between any popular SATA II and SATA III SSD, regardless of cost, when comparing the same size drives. The same goes for DRAM, I defy anyone to tell the difference in a blind test... between RAM running @ 1333 MHz. and @ 2000 MHz. in any Intel or AMD powered desktop PC. It's simply impossible to do though the uninformed will argue to their dying breathe but not actually run blind tests to prove it to themselves.
That being said, if you're willing to take a chance on lost data, regular firmware update requirements to fix issues, RMA's, etc. with an SSD, picking an SSD for most folks should be based on your needs, the SSD's reliability, compatibility, manufacturer reputation for warranty/service and price. FYI - Longer product warranties do not necessarily mean better quality drives be they SSDs or HDDs. You can completely forget benchmarks as they are for new, clean drives and mean nothing in the real world nor is the difference in system performance even discernible.
If you want a real good laugh - go to the major SSD maker websites and find the complete SSD warranty and read it carefully. Find out what your real cost/inconvenience/losses are if the SSD has a defect/fails. It ain't pretty... in many cases. Reply
jason_mcallister - Sunday, January 27, 2013 - linkI really like your post and completely agree with your statements. I find it curious that more folks don't also see things this way. I was gullible in paying a premium for my DDR3-2400. If I had done some research before the purchase I would have realized that it wasn't a performance increase that I would have ever noticed. People, in which I include myself, are always looking at the benchmarks (metric tests) and kind of shut off the critical thinking process. Thankfully, I'm a little wiser these days and have a better process for making purchase decisions.
alkhrt - Sunday, January 27, 2013 - linkIt's great to see the price /GB close to $1., but 1TB worth of SSD ~$1000, while 1TB HDD ~$70. I can't believe with no moving parts etc. that SSD's are 14x more expensive to produce. Still feel like I'm getting the shaft buying one. Reply
Scour - Saturday, February 16, 2013 - linkThe funny thing: The 320 was one of the cheapest 256GB-SSD at the arrival, only some old OCZ (240GB Vertex/Agilty 2, 256GB Petrol) were cheaper.
Now it´s more expensive than M5S, M4 Hyper X 3k, Intel 335. OK, most SF-SSDs only offers 240GB, but for example the 335 ist about 14€ cheaper.
So I see no reason to buy a Transcend 320, my first choice in this class is the Plextor Reply

subset: commoncrawl


text:
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37 Fire Place
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3 El Farol, 808 Canyon Road, 505-983-9912


text:
Puget Systems Echo: Intel and AMD Showdown at 65 Wattsby Dustin Sklavos on 3/21/2012 2:35 AM EST
- Posted in
- Systems
- Intel
- Mini ITX
- Sandy Bridge
- Llano
- boutique
- Mini-Tower
62 Comments
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sabot00 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkA trip to the Wikipedia page for Llano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Fusion#.22Llano.2...
Shows that the A6-3500 is FAR, FAR from the best AMD has in the 65 W space.
The A6-3600 and A6-3620 deliver 4 cores at 2.1 and 2.2GHz (another whole core compared to the 3500)
Meanwhile, in the A8 it gets worse, the A8-3800 and 3820 deliver 4 cores at 2.4 and 2.5GHz WHILE ALSO giving the HD6550D (400 SP's, 80 more than the 3500).
Leaving AMD 1 core, 400 MHz, and 80 SP's down just feels wrong. Reply
HW_mee - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - link1. This is Anandtech, what did you expect?
2. Puget only sells the AMD system with an A4-3400 and the A6-3500.
Anandtech can only review pre-assembled systems as the systems are sold, the fact that Anandtech cares to compare such vastly different system is a different debate. Reply
Arnulf - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkFine, but it woudl make sense to cobble together their own setup using the best components that still fit same thermal envelope (afteralkl a user might decide to upgrade !). This means fastest 65W APU and fastest memory that is supported by that CPU. Reply
HW_mee - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - link1st, let me mention that I love prebuild reviews, even when I don't have a chance of buying the reviewed system, but I find that this review is lacking or a bit odd.
2nd, Adding a DIY system would be as awkward as the existing comparison, 1750$ prebuild Intel system vs 1400$ prebuild AMD system vs. DIY system with 65 watt CPU system?
I think Dustin has held a good scope by only looking at the top offerings for the Puget Systems Echo an he is very balanced in his praise of both systems.
Unfortunately I see no reason to compare performance of these systems, AMD will get a beating on the CPU side, again, and Intels horrible IGP is absent from half the test, again.
3rd, I have not read other Puget system reviews on anand, but I would have preferred the review had an extra page dedicated to the systems and reseller.
A large markup is mentioned, but an example of how cheap a DIY person can make it is not shown.
Build quality, noise, temperature etc. is leisurely mentioned but never with anything really tangible.
I could go on :-/ Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkYes, but there's time and there's money. In any case, judging by the power usage of the A6-3500 I think it's fair to assume that you can use one of the more powerful variants and still not get anywhere near the 100W ceiling (though I suppose, with the 3850, it'd get close - but we ARE talking the differences mentioned by sabot00 above plus the 157MHz higher GPU clock). Reply
djfourmoney - Thursday, April 12, 2012 - linkRead the reviews of the 3650 and you'll find under load (just the APU) it will exceed 100W. Under "Normal" use, however it might not see that.
I don't think that would have helped much. I still don't understand if memory is so important to AMD's performance that they didn't put it inside their systems.
I smell something, as I said Tom's already did a test of several sticks of memory for APU's Reply
djfourmoney - Thursday, April 12, 2012 - linkOnly problem is finding a A6-3800 which is the Quad Core 65W. Missing Remote tested one, but I can't seem to find one here or in Europe and I haven't tried Asia yet.
I already bought an A6-3500 though and since its an HTPC, it will be more than fine with 1600 speed memory and SSD like featured though smaller (64GB), so maybe with a slight OC and OC the memory I can smoke the benchmarks set here.
There is an A6-3860 which is the revision of the Quad Core but it seems those have all gone to OEM's now.
Guess this fight will continue when Trinity comes out and hopefully a low TDP Quad Core will be widely available. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkIf you guys read the entire article not only would you see some of what you've said here IN the article; but you would know WHY they tested the way they did. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkThis is a tired argument and something I've gotten really sick of seeing since I started writing here nearly two years ago. It's very easy to cry foul and scream bias without reading the entire article or thinking about why the material might seem the way it is.
I will say this once to get it out of my system: nobody here is on anyone's payroll. There is no collective site bias. We report what we find. If you feel otherwise, so be it, but I was an AnandTech reader long before I started writing here and I can tell you I wouldn't have stuck around if things weren't honest. Reply
MonkeyPaw - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkI found the article valuable for what it was. Thanks.
It was a shame they shipped the Llano build with DDR3 1333. As an owner of the A3850, even the jump to 1600 provides a fairly noticeable jump in gaming performance. Did the motherboard allow you to bump up the memory frequency? If not, I guess a decent option would be to get this system with the least amount of RAM possible and then buy 8GB of 1600 for $40 and install it yourself. :) Reply
ggathagan - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkAs mentioned in the article:
"Puget hasn't qualified any 8GB DDR3-1600 DIMMs for deployment in any of their builds, and so they erred on memory capacity instead of speed. In conversations via e-mail, they even admitted this was probably a mistake in this instance. The problem is that they also don't offer any 2GB or 4GB DDR3-1600 DIMMs for the AMD-based system, either, when they do have 4GB DDR3-1600 DIMMs qualified for other builds." Reply
compcons - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkAlthough I am not claiming a bias, it is a real shame you had to test that Llano with crappy 1333. Although I wouldn't recoomend rolling your own system to run in this silly race, I think it would be very enlightening to see how this would do with fast RAM (1800). I myself was really dissappointed after reading how crappy the AMD did in the CPU tests until I got to the end of the article and realized it was slow RAM. Not o be too harsh, but based on the price and poorly conceived system configuration, I'd tend to not buy anything form these guys...
EH Reply
JKflipflop98 - Monday, March 26, 2012 - linkI would be very interested in a future update to the article testing if swapping out the memory modules actually do make that big of a difference.
There's only one way to find out. . . Reply
Andrew.a.cunningham - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkDitto on my end. These endless accusations of bias and/or corruption devalue hours of work on the part of writers and prevents the reasonable discussions that AT commenters are more than capable of having. Reply
Andrew.a.cunningham - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - link...and these comments are on an article that actually recommends the AMD system over Intel's. :-) Reply
ImSpartacus - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkWhile I cannot disagree with the content of this post, might I suggest that Anandtech staff not respond to critical (errr trolling) comments?
I come to Anandtech for a cold and completely objective look at the consumer technology of today and tomorrow.
Sometimes, it isn't possible to hold an objective discussion with commenters. Impassioned (albeit respectful and 'correct') comments can slowly damage the image of a journalist and their distribution channel.
If this site starts falling apart, I won't have anywhere to go. Can we nip this in the bud? Reply
Tchamber - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkAvailablility is the issue, they even mentioned that in the article. What mainstream, trusted website were you going to pick that 65w A6 3600 at? Reply
BSMonitor - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkClearly Puget is going for two different market segments with each system. It makes perfect sense to me.
The Core i7-2600S is $100 more expensive than the Intel Core i5-2405S, but comes with half the graphics computing power. They simple chose the best CPU performance they could fit in 65W. It would make no sense to have two identical product lines with the only difference for the customer to choose AMD or Intel. So the AMD side is left for the best iGPU performance at hand.
On one line, they are going for low end gaming. On the other, raw computing power. Intel vs AMD is superficial to them. With the mini-gaming rig they also make more $$ as the APU costs $150-70 less.
And please, don't make me laugh.. You could dump 20 Llano cores into the thing and it wouldn't touch Sandy Bridge quad cores. Grow up. Reply
jgutz20 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkThat is true about the AMD cpu used is far from its best, And while the AMD chip has the best GPU of the 2, I'd like to see a "slower" intel chip, be it a i3 or an i5, whatever they have within power envelope that has the HD3000 graphics as that would even the playing field a bit more.
I guess what i would like to see is Anandtech re-doing this comparison but with their own build so as to ensure they get the best parts available, not the best parts this company offers in this form factor. Get the MB/CPU/RAM for each setup and re-use the case, HDD's etc.
That is what i would like to see as a follow up to this article! Reply
medi01 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkAt least they couldn't test low power AMD CPU with 1000 watt PSU this time, lol...
1500$ for these, you must be kidding me... Reply
Spunjji - Friday, March 23, 2012 - linkThis is addressed very well in the article, particularly in the conclusions. The editorial is nicely balanced if you took the time to read it.
Yes, it stinks that people will look at the graphs in this and nothing else, but that's people for you and it's AMD's responsibility to combat that. Reply
trane - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkSince you have brought up video editing and gaming as the two usage scenarios, I would like to contest that Llano would do the former much slower than SNB. The GPU is not just for gaming, but GPGPU as well. Quite a few editing software today are starting to be heavily OpenCL GPU accelerated - including Sony Vegas and Cyberlink Powerdirector. I would have also mentioned Premiere Pro but it is CUDA only for now, should be OpenCL in the near future. Perhaps you should add a Sony Vegas Pro benchmark to your suite, Sony already have a standard benchmark project available (http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/gpuac... and GPUs bring massive gains over CPU-only.
Just a suggestion, as Llano's GPGPU capabilities almost always goes unnoticed, and unfairly so. Yes, not many applications are heavily GPU accelerated today, but video editing is certainly one of them.
It's a pity the A8-3800 isn't available, that would have been pretty great, and much faster than A6-3500 for a small price. Reply
trane - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkHere's a link to the benchmark project: www.sonycreativesoftware.com/vegaspro/gpuacceleration Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkThe problem is that GPGPU and dedicated hardware encoding still, to my knowledge, have issues with end quality. If you're just transcoding for the internet or for yourself, they're probably fine, but CPU-only encoding remains the gold standard.
That said, Premiere CS5.5 benefits tremendously from CUDA, but not entirely on the encoding side. Mercury Playback Engine still produces reference quality video, but CUDA accelerates decoding and effects layering on the timeline by a substantial degree, in some cases meaning the difference between editing in realtime and not.
GPGPU has promise but that promise is, presently, nascent on the desktop. Reply
trane - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkDo note that I am not referring to encoding! On Vegas Pro the entire video processing pipeline is heavily GPU accelerated. Right from decoding to colour space transforms to scaling to transitions/motion graphics to nearly all video effects - nearly everything is GPU accelerated - even before we hit the encoding stage. Much more extensive than Premiere Pro. Do give the benchmark project a try, you might be surprised how far GPGPU has come. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkThe i7-2600S sports QuickSync, so if the software supports it, it may not actually be a victory for AMD on this one. Reply
hypercube33 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkThis is bull. As posted by sabot they have plenty of higher powered APU's available up to the newer A8-3800.
This is like cutting off the arms of your opponent and then saying he didnt even throw a punch. I am not saying AMD is better, but this review is skewed so badly that its not even close to worth publishing. Reply
weiran - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkYes AMD have a higher power CPU in the A8-3800. But available?
I'm in the UK so the availability is probably even worse than the US, but I've been unable to find any stock of the A8-3800. The only place you can get one seems to be in pre-built HP desktops. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkNot to mention the significantly higher power consumption of a quad core CPU at 2.9GHz with much more powerful graphics. Sure, the 38xx series would be preferable, if only you could actually grab hold of them.
The 3870K is available on CCL for £103, but the A6-3500 is a mere £55 from the same site. The only available models available on that site are the A4-3300, A4-3400, A6-3500, A6-3670K and A8-3870K - there is no sign of the 3800 or 3820. Reply
djfourmoney - Thursday, April 12, 2012 - linkIts not just you, all the major e-tailers don't carry the A8-3800 in North America. The B&M's don't either (Micro Center and Fry's). That's why I got the A6-3500 and called it a day.
An A4-3400 is plenty for HTPC use, does 29/59 and 3D without issues. When you start using 3rd party stuff like MadVR, you may have a few problems with interlaced content as found in Rene's testing on AVS forums.
The Triple Core is the best case scenario of price and performance. It will do what my current system does, only faster (current rig is 5000+ BE) and that's plenty for me.
MB, APU, SSD and Memory all for under $200
Hrel - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkSeriously people, before you leave angry comments read the ENTIRE article. He addresses your complaints IN the article. As weiran says, it comes down to supply. AMD doesn't have anything better available to buy. My guess is AMD knows the only systems getting AMD chips right now are the cheapest possible systems, so they probably only manufacture a few thousand of their higher end chips; knowing anyone willing to spend that much money on a CPU will probably go with Intel. Why waste the resources on chips that will never sell? At least not for a profit. So they only keep the cheaper CPU's in stock. They have no delusions about the situation they're in; if only their fan-boys were as clear sighted. Reply
SteelCity1981 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkWe know Intel has the best CPU's as far as performance on the market goes, but Wwat this did show is AMD's IGP is far better than Intels IGP. So it's really a trade off between CPU performance or Graphics performance if you only had those two options in buying a system like this. Things should get a lot better on the CPU side with AMD's APU's with Trinity using AMD's Piledriver Cores instead an old revised version of the Athlon II cores that come with Llano. And not to mention the HD 7000 series on the GPU side that will come along with it. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkProblem is you don't game on an IGP; you buy a dedicated graphics card. Also this is HALF the GPU performance of Intel. He says in the article 6 cores compared to the normal 12. So while the AMD gpu is still a little faster, not by much. And not nearly enough to matter. You aren't gonna game on an IGP, so saying AMD wins because their IGP is better for gaming is moronic. Intels chip is better at literally EVERYTHING, even video rendering. Reply
SteelCity1981 - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkWhat's moronic is the fact that yopu said AMD's IGP is a little better? Are you blind. Intels IGP is way better then intels IGP is the benchmarks clearly showed that.
So people that do light gaming can't game on AMD's APU? Reply
silverblue - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkThis isn't meant to be a performance machine, it is meant to be a setup for 65W or less. The article points out that whilst the i7 is easily the faster of the two for CPU work (and why shouldn't it be with an extra core advantage, hyperthreading, better turbo, and 8MB L3 cache), in terms of general usage you probably wouldn't notice it that much over the A6-3500. What's more, the AMD machine uses less power and performs far better at gaming. I also feel the need to point out that the HD 2000 requires a clock speed of three times that of the HD6530D yet falls far behind. The HD3000 will help but not enormously so - put simply, only CPU bound games will do better on the Intel side (and we're talking the minority of games). Let's also not forget that Llano performs noticably better with 1600MHz RAM over the 1333 in this build.
I should also mention that, due to the size of the enclosure and the limited power feed, you CAN'T really add a dedicated card to this setup. So, you have to ask yourself - do you want to use the machine for media or productivity? The AMD machine will handle both whilst costing less, whilst the Intel setup will seriously limp through games but excel at anything that doesn't require a GPU (plus it has QuickSync, of course).
Having said that, neither system is the most price friendly. Reply
piroroadkill - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkA bit cruel to pick out a cheap Llano vs a Sandy Bridge most people would be happy with in their main desktop.
A8-3820 is the fastest Llano inside 65W, and would be vastly quicker than the chip tested.
I admit it's probably a pain to get hold of (I was trying to find one a while back), but it's not a fair fight without it.. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkYou know who said this EXACT same thing? Dustin... IN THE ARTICLE!!!!! Gahhhh!!!! Seriously people, READ THE WHOLE DAMN THING BEFORE LEAVING A COMMENT COMPLAINING!!! Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkOk, so you absolutely cannot game on the Intel system. You can play some games on very low settings and even lower resolutions on the AMD system. Absolutely EVERYTHING else is faster on the Intel system. So, you don't WANT to game on either system. WHY would you choose the AMD system? If you want to game I'm sure a system like this is not your only system. A decent 15" gaming laptop, P151HM for instance. Any desktop that you've built or bought that has a 75 dollar graphics card in it or better. Point being if you want to game you won't do it on either of these. So unless price is all you care about, Intel it is.
Ever since Intel put that video rendering engine on their CPU's, I forget what it's called right now, the one and only reason to ever consider anything AMD sells is if you play video games. The kinds of video games that require a GPU. Even then a given person might choose Nvidia over AMD. I don't want to see them go under, with the recent legal battles they've won that won't be for a while. But things don't look good. I would love nothing more than to build an AMD system, but I haven't been able to justify it since my Athlon XP. (skipped the Athlon 64 (and X2) era of CPU's). Running E8400 and GTX460 in my desktop, Sandy Bridge 2630 and GTX560M in my laptop. Each one suits all my needs in excess. I cannot see myself buying anything AMD, replacing desktop in 6-18 months. Laptops got a few years left on it. Maybe by 2015/2016 AMD will be a viable option??? Probably not:( Reply
HW_mee - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkI think the question is, why would you pay 1750$ for that Intel system? Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linklol, well, I wouldn't, not even close. But I might build a similar setup myself. I've always liked the idea of a thin client as a HTPC. Reply
djfourmoney - Thursday, April 12, 2012 - linkSame here, I need to buy some USB stuff since I have DirecTV and internal PCI HDTV Tuners. Just adds to the budget, I really can't afford to spend the extra $135 (Case, USB Combo Tuner, $15 extra for Mini-ITX) Reply
Mothergoose729 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkIn the review, the power consumption of each platform was tested only under CPU load. This is inaccurate and unfair because the GPU power consumption contributes a lot to heat and detracts from efficiency. A combination of furmark GPU torture test and a CPU intensive load tester is needed to get an accurate measurement of the power consumption of these chips. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkIncorrect. The systems are tested under load, CPU and GPU combined. I ran the stress test in AIDA64, stressing the CPU, GPU, and system memory. Previous results used whatever the most stressful situation I could find was to maximize power consumption; sometimes it was Mafia II, sometimes it was Left 4 Dead 2, sometimes it was AIDA64. My goal is consistently to maximize the power consumption, and the CPU and GPU are being stressed in tandem here. Reply
Mothergoose729 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkIn the review, both CPU fit a 65 watt envelope. While it is true that AMD A8 processors feature more cores and better graphics, they also have a much higher TDP. To my knoweledge, the A6 processor in this review is the fastest or one of the fastest chips that is under 65 watts. Reply
BornDaemon - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkRegistered just to post this - this is a SFF with a low noise output and small energy footprint. Why was this not tested as a HTPC, looking at different outputs, image quality analysis between HD2000 and the AMD chip, etc? Seems a lot more likely it will be used hooked up to a TV than as a gaming rig, in my mind. Reply
HW_mee - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkI believe Anadtech already has a comparison of the Intel HD graphics and the Llano GPU somewhere on the site making such an analysis worthless.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4479/amd-a83850-an-h... Reply
chuckula - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkHow DARE you only "lean" towards Llano!! This just shows that Anandtech is an evil Intel SHILL operation bought and paid for with evil Intel Blood Money!
Any *objective* review would never have even considered using parts that aren't blessed by the holy elders of AMD! It's disgusting that you would even write an article that insults AMD by using the word Intel in it! And to have the nerve to suggest that people should choose a system based on their needs instead of just signing over their children and life savings to AMD is absolutely appalling!
I will never read this site again after such a twisted and disgustingly biased article! GOOD DAY SIR!
P.S. --> To the two people who were dumb enough to take this seriously, yes I am joking. It does show that the AMD cultists who constantly bash Anandtech don't have a clue though, they don't realize that the easiest way for Anandtech to give better reviews of AMD products is for AMD to actually make better products. Reply
Mayuyu - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkIMO, you should have reviewed the video image quality difference between Intel and AMD. It is a much more relevant test than gaming for this system.
Stuff like how much frames can Quicksync vs AMD decode a 1080 H264 40Mbps stream at.
MadVR Performance..., etc. Reply
chuckula - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkQuicksync has exactly 0 to do with video decoding, this keeps coming up over and over and it's a little depressing how uneducated most people are. I can (and have) done full H.264 1080P video decoding with a 3 year old Core 2 notebook with x4500 graphics over an HDMI output with audio under Linux, so video playback is a piece of cake.
Quicksync is for video *trans*coding which is 1. usually done offline and 2. often done on a separate box from the HTPC. The HTPC plays back the video *after* transcoding. Reply
zebrax2 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkA good review. Some of the commentators seem to forget that this is not a processor review rather a system review. Dustin reviewed what was available, it is not his problem that a certain processor is not available for the system rather it is Pudgets.
I actually think this review put AMD in good light. Even though the the processor (possibly also the ram) used in the system was not the best that one can get it still managed to impress the reviewer. Reply
BSMonitor - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkWhy wouldn't they go down the road of using a mobile CPU for these types of systems?? They are already using customized motherboards. Seems like there are plenty of Core i7's with HD3000 in the $310 CPU range. Reply
frozentundra123456 - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkSounds like a great idea to me. A mobile chip with the HD3000 might even be a better balanced Intel system than the one they tested which if too strongly biased toward the CPU. Reply
silverblue - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkA mobile CPU would make plenty of sense here on both sides, along with SO-DIMMs for the AMD setup. Reply
Death666Angel - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkConsidering the price differences and the different markets the AMD APU and Intel CPU play at, these results are expected. It would have been nice to see the A8 65W APU with its superior IGP and more cores and higher clock. But that thing is seriously hard to get.
I settled for a A6-3500 in my HTPC. It was much cheaper than any Intel solution at the time, the IGP is more important to me than more CPU power and undervolted it uses about as much juice as any Intel CPU. And this way I can support AMD some and increase competition (I use Intel in my desktop machine and my Laptops). Reply
krumme - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkFor me Dustin just writes the best review currently on the web, far from the usual we need 7870 oc to get the job done, that doesnt reflect normal user behavior.
This review, as the others from Dustin, is usufull for recommending solutions for family and friends,
except the minor detail i dont think they would care about the next wonder from AMD or Intel the same way we do :)
Interesting products. Then add we got some surprising power numbers.
All delivered in delightfull english
Thank you Reply
Jamahl - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkThanks for this review, I've been looking at the A6-3500 as a possible build (as a reseller) and I'm pretty happy with the results here - especially the power draw ones. Reply
Jamahl - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkWhat exactly were you running while testing power consumption btw? Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkAIDA64's stress test, hitting the CPU and GPU simultaneously. Reply
Luscious - Wednesday, March 21, 2012 - linkI'm really REALLY surprised why the writer didn't push Puget for not using the i5-2405S in such a build - lack of knowledge?
The 2405S is also a 65W part, slightly slower at 2.5GHz, only has 6MB Cache, but it does dish up HD3000 graphics. If I were building a mini-ITX system for a HTPC, this would be the CPU I would choose.
If 1080p gaming was my concern, I wouldn't even look at a mini-ITX enclosure... Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Thursday, March 22, 2012 - linkOur thought process working with Puget was to just crank out the most powerful systems we could on the AMD and Intel sides. What's interesting, I think, and I touched on this a little in the review...you can't really say anything's just "the most powerful" anymore, and the review proves it. As a result, the comparison did suffer a little, but I'd like to think the information gleaned was useful nonetheless. Reply
ReverendDC - Monday, March 26, 2012 - linkFolks:
This was a review of two pre-configured systems. In the end of the article, the author specifically states that there are far more powerful AMD CPUs available in the same power envelope, but they are not readily available, even on NewEgg, and that the manufacturer doesn't add them in as an option.
If I were an AMD fan (and I am...), I would be ecstatic that my admittedly lower-end CPU/GPU combo knocked out the MUCH more powerful i7 CPU/GPU combo for overall usefulness. I believe that competition is absolutely necessary in the CPU space - just look and see how much Intel is sitting on their laurels right now without a really good challenger to their CPU dominance right now, and then look how much work they are putting into the GPU side of things now that AMD has eaten their lunch in that arena. How could you claim that this article was written by an Intel fellow when the parting thought was that he would go with the AMD solution for a system such as this (notebook, HTPC)?
In addition, the author basically chastises the manufacturer for not making better parts available that would take advantage of the AMD's love of memory without even coming close to breaking the power consumption limit.
Come on, guys. We all know that the CPU side of AMD is not the reason people buy APUs. We all know that, until AMD drops the new NetBurst architecture they are trying to push (Bulldozer) and realize that, if Intel failed with that strategy, AMD may just go bankrupt using it, that Intel will DESTROY AMD on the CPU side. We also know that, even with Ivy Bridge, there is a good chance that the GPU side will STILL belong to AMD, even at current Llano builds (there is a previous article from Anand previewing the new Ivy Bridge GPU). There was not a single shock in this article. Why argue well-documented facts at this point....
Thanks for your time. Reply
djfourmoney - Thursday, April 12, 2012 - linkWhat do mean they have qualified 1600Hz memory for the Llanos? Tom's already ran its own testing and PNY Xlr8 are the best given the price, availability and performance.
Given faster memory the Llano would put a further smack down on Sandy Bridge graphics and run BF3!
These APU's are perfectly suited for HTPC use, especially given the price of cut down i3's (G-series).
I was wondering if this would run on the 90W power brick Antec gives you. I have A6-3500 waiting for a motherboard and memory. I sort of want to downsize my HTPC which uses a Sonta III case currently. But that would mean buying at least one external device and leaving my poor PCI TV Tuners out to lunch.
All total it would add $80 for the Antec case, $45 for a used 650HD USB Combo Tuner (ATI has better PQ chips!) and $15 for the ASRock board over the Mico-ATX version.
Oh well... Serious Budget Upgrade so I'll likely stick to the original plan. Thanks for the Review. Reply


text:
Holiday 2012 Small Form Factor Buyer's Guideby Zach Throckmorton on 12/5/2012 1:55 AM EST
74 Comments
Back to Article
96redformula - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkNot sure how you couldn't include Silverstone SG-09 as a case. Yeah, I know, the style is hit or miss, but hard to argue vs all the capabilities and features of it.
I have a full blown gaming system in mine and the advantages are huge; the option of going crossfire/SLI, full sized CPU tower, water cooling capable, and smaller than the Bitfenix Prodigy case. Reply
bim27142 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkit's more expensive i think that's why... Reply
JohnMD1022 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkRequires a slot load optical drive... $70. Waiting for mine to arrive.
Needs the special ODD cable ($9).
For all intents and purposes, requires a Silverstone full modular power supply ($80 and up) plus the short cable set ($25).
We're over $100 already, plus the $100 for the case.
Hmmmmmmmmm... Reply
lmcd - Sunday, January 13, 2013 - linkBrief correction: slot-load dvd is $30 Reply
JohnMD1022 - Saturday, February 09, 2013 - link$30?
Half height tray loads are $30.
Slot loads are 70+
:) Reply
Cygni - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkThese tiny ITX systems also have another use not really mentioned: as a full blown media center PC (often with CableCard tuners). It's a combo of features that's hard to nail right now in the market place... quiet, small, presentable in the middle of a living room, optical audio out, half height PCie bracket you dont have to bend to get to work, etc.
I currently have a G530, BIOSTAR TH61ITX, and Antec ISK 310-150, with a Ceton 4 tuner card. Looking pretty hard at going to a 35w Ivy Bridge Celly/Pentium when they become available, because even the dainty G530 is enough to spin up the fans with 3 channels recording. Reply
pdffs - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI was thinking this too, but...
Optical audio should pretty much be phased out now that HDMI is so prevalent (HDMI audio is vastly superior, and carried by all equipment for the past few years).
And it'd be hard to recommend a capture card for such a build, since there are so many standards in different regions.
I'm looking at replacing my aging ION box with some Ivy Bridge (though I wish Intel would fix the 24p frame-rate issue). Reply
Rick83 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI disagree: The stereo amplifier I bought two years ago features optical in, but no HDMI.
Optical also means less conducitivity, so more resilience against interference.
Optical cables are much thinner. I run one under a door, where it is all but invisible, an HDMI cable would be a huge eye-sore - and would not fit.
HDMI audio may be somewhat superior, if you have sources that get you "HD" codecs, but those are only on BDs anyway, so no point for most of us, who can't be bothered with BDs due to the DRM breaking free players - and just use a stand alone device.
Music, games and everything else wil mostly be fine with optical. While multichannel PCM is nice to have, you'll need support on both ends, to gain anything over DTS/DD encoded audio.
Plus, you don't always want to logically bind display and audio together.
And then there's display port, which I'd prefer over HDMI. Reply
erple2 - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - link<quote>less conducitivity, so more resilience against interference.</quote>
What? HDMI is a digital signal, which means it either works or doesn't, much like how an HDMI video signal is NOT affected by the 'quality' of the cables. Unless you're talking about something else. Reply
Bender316 - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkHDMI IS copper cable, and the signal is just voltage on that cable - whether Analogue or Digital, neither are totally immune to interference. So there are limitations and are potential interference issues.
If you want a very long distance (cabling through doorways is mentioned) - I believe the Low-Voltage Differential Signal standard it uses recommends max 15m? I'd have to check. At the same time the LVDS signalling is very robust, and should be fairly good at dealing with interference.
Optical on the other hand is light in a glass tube. Electromagnetic interference should not be an issue. Distance obviously impacted by the driver, but I seem to recall max distances are a lot higher than HDMI. Reply
Avendit - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkIts not so much signal issues I've had as earthing problems. Using a copper co-ax for digital out on my media PC gave a loud pop every time the audio fired up and dts sync'd. Switch to optical and the problem goes away. I could see the same thing being possible with HDMI.
It might be something unique to systems a size down from these - I'm talking systems with laptop style power bricks, hence the earthing problem I think. But its also passive and does just enough for a media PC, albeit with most content stored over the network.
Avendit Reply
ender8282 - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkI took the comment to refer to better isolation of the audio system. I believe that the fear is that a a copper cable running from the computer to the audio system could introduce a ground loop and cause issues. Reply
Guspaz - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkHDMI is prone to interference, digital or otherwise. If you've ever suffered from interference on an HDMI cable, you'd see it as coloured snow on the image. It's hard to describe, it's like, imagine you have a large number of stuck pixels, except their location changes every frame.
I get this from my PS3 to my U2711 when using deep colour. It requires more bandwidth, so the signal is less robust (generally, the higher bandwidth your HDMI signal, the more prone to interference). I'm using a rather thin cable (28AWG), so even though the total length of the cable run isn't very long (~15 feet total), there's some interference problems due to the high bandwidths involved.
I have no such problems from my PS3 to my projector, despite using a much longer cable (PS3 -> HDMI switch -> U2711 or projector), because the cable going from my switch to my TV is a MUCH thicker cable. Reply
Midwayman - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkEven two years ago you had to work hard not to buy a unit without HDMI. No reason to eliminate choices, but if you have to pick one or the other, HDMI is the future. Granted HDMI is a pretty crappy standard in many ways, but its what consumer gear uses for better or worse. Reply
Guspaz - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkHDMI cables using RedMere chips have similar thicknesses to good optical TOSLINK cables at up to 15 chips. They do cost a lot more, but they're still available at MonoPrice, so at least you know the premium isn't ripping you off.
Normally, a typical HDMI cable uses 28AWG conductors for up to 15 feet, RedMere can use 36AWG conductors for up to the same distance. That's a pretty enormous reduction in size, and it should be more resistant to interference to boot.
Over 15 feet, though... At 30 feet, regular HDMI is going to be something like 24AWG, while RedMere bumps it up to 28AWG. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Monday, December 10, 2012 - link
HDMI audio may be somewhat superior, if you have sources that get you "HD" codecs, but those are only on BDs anyway, so no point for most of us, who can't be bothered with BDs due to the DRM breaking free players - and just use a stand alone device.
Pssst. AnyDVD HD+XBMC 12 Frodo.
You're welcome. Reply
lmcd - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkI'm pretty sure even an AMD A4 can do the off-frame rates more accurately than Intel's IGPs, so I'd consider an AMD build in that case. Reply
Metaluna - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkPersonally, for HTPC I prefer a slim desktop-style microATX case, like the Antec NSK2480 or equivalent Silverstone. Plenty of room inside for a large GPU and/or tuner card, and several drives. Much easier to work in, and, unlike these wierd shoebox cases, they actually stack nicely with other HT components like receivers or BD players. Reply
drewpsu - Friday, December 07, 2012 - linkThanks to network tuners from an HDHomeRun, my HTPC is mini-ITX without having to worry about internal tuner cards. Reply
cyrusfox - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkWhen it comes to budget itx builds(media center or file server), I really think the new Celeron Mobile 847(SB) boards Rock. I got one coming to my place tomorrow to be my tv box.
Check'er out
Sandybridge mobile performance for $80(superbiiz), Sure it is only 1.1 GHz - 2 cores, but should be able to handle 1080p hulu or netflix streams and the TDP at 17W, tiny, perfect for those insane small ITX cases like a Wesena itx2 case or heatsink streacom case(silent media box). Goodbye brazos, its been a good 23 months. Reply
Taft12 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkA 40mm fan? No, no, no, no and no. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkIt's a 17W mobile part. A slow 40mm fan is more than sufficient when combined with the improved airflow of even a SFF case when compared to a laptop chassis. The similar sized fan on my 18W E-350 file server has never gotten gotten loud enough to be heard. Reply
dananski - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkHe's probably concerned about the pitch of the sound. I've avoided anything smaller than a 120mm fan in all my builds as even quiet high pitched noise is a nuissance. Your file server probably has a low CPU load compared to the video playback cyrusfox intends to do, so I'd expect it to stay nice and cool with the fan barely on. He might not be so lucky.
As for the board & integrated CPU, seems pretty good value for money, though I'd like to see some more powerful mobile chips in this sort of design. Will probably become more common with Haswell. Reply
cyrusfox - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkBoard came today, I am load testing it currently. Bios is nice, fan is fully customizable(so much so that you can set it low enough to not turn on) and cpu and gpu power can be altered(step down, you can also underclock the cpu or diable a core-won't be doing that). Trying to see how low it can go and be stable. So far it is silent and not even in its case yet(cardboard build, waiting for the last parts to arrive).
You don't need much air flow for a tiny 17watt chip. The fan is removable, so you could just add some heat pipes and make a passive build out of it, CPU good to 100°C. It really is a low profile board, highest part is the audio connector on IO. Whenever Temash gets out, I'll probably replace it, but this should be more than good enough to emulate, stream, and surf on the couch. Reply
ricardoduarte - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkWhy are you suggesting 1TB hd, and no SSD in the gaming systems.
I would one of these would be better:
-2TB hd, and 256gb ssd would be a better choice.
- 3TB hd and 64gb ssd for cache Reply
Norseman4 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkTrue it's double the price of the OS, but it looks like Win8's Storage Spaces revives and possibly improves the best part of the original WHS ... Drive Extender.
It's be nice to see an investigation into SS and it's direct comparison to DE, though. (I've only seen pages on how to set up a SS, so how it functions is still unknown to me) Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI looked at W8 + Storage Spaces recently; but benches put it significantly slower than rival fakeraid options. Hopefully MS will be able to patch it up to more competitive levels in an upcoming service pack (Blue?) or W9. Reply
bigfire - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI've had my AMD Athlon 64 X2 for about 6 years and it still works well. I've never had any troubles with this guy. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkWhat mobo chipset did you use? Both of mine have been dead for over a year after nForce4 boards 4 and 5 followed my first 3 into the grave. Reply
amdwilliam1985 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkSame here, I have x2 2.5ghz with stock fan, it's probably been 5 years now.
It's still running as a champ for my workload. The only upgrade I'm made in the past 2 years is the $99 5770 :) great investments. Reply
jackstar7 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI still build the occasional Shuttle and going Open Box from Newegg makes them often an excellent deal. Given that power needs have dropped significantly over the years, a Shuttle can stay cool and quiet these days and deliver a very solid experience.
While folks might want to have their hands in all of the parts of a build, there's still value in what Shuttle brings to the desk. My most recent build included a 3770S and serves its owner very well so far. I also have a very minimalist Shuttle running with a 2400S for my HTPC and it runs more quietly than my PS3. Reply
marvdmartian - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkHopefully their power supply problems have been solved by now? Last time I bought a Shuttle SFF system (~5 years ago), it ran fine for the first 2 years, then fried a power supply, which eventually led to a fried motherboard (lasted ~2 weeks, then died). Being a micro-BTX system, it was easier (and cheaper) to simply replace it with a standard micro-ATX case & motherboard. Reply
jackstar7 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkThey started using rated 80+ PSUs that have shown me no trouble at all. Even the ones from a few years back rarely gave me any trouble at all and I was packing the things with high-power GPUs and OC-ing my CPU.
I use a full tower for myself these days, but I still keep an eye on Shuttle because there are times when it's just a plain good deal. Reply
roland12321 - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkI can't believe he's hammering at Shuttle there... I bought a Shuttle back in 2004 and only stopped working last year, because I accidentally damaged the motherboard because I had to replace its bios battery. Even that system was an AMD (single core, though), also using an 80mm fan and it worked fine. The only things I replaced over the years was a hard disk and a video card. Mind you, the power supply of the old Shuttle was only 250W. Maybe people were overloading their power supply without realising it, causing it to pop.
As a matter of fact, because it ran so well, earlier this year I bought a new Shuttle SH67H3 and it still runs like a dream! I can't overclock my CPU (which is logical) but I have zero complaints. My next PC will also definitely be a Shuttle! It's powering the i5-2500 with a HD 7850 without any issues at all.
Also, Shuttle make their own motherboards, and are WAAYYYY ahead of any other competitor on the small form factor field. Have a look at their website, all their products are quite impressive. And I agree with jackstar7, Shuttle PCs don't make any noise. I accidentally turned it off once because I didn't hear it being on. Maybe the reviewer was running his fans at 100%?
Imo Shuttle deserves more respect... Reply
max347 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI think page 2 should read 4TB instead of 4GB (last paragraph) Reply
sligett - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - link"the plural of anecdote is not data."
Well said. Reply
Mumrik - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkBest sentence in the entire article. Reply
tjcinnamon - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI have a Synology NAS and one thing I like is that it sleeps until it's hit with a request for data. Can a fileserver be set to sleep after a set amount of activity but then awake on data request (not WOL because it's a data request).
JOe K. Reply
bobbozzo - Friday, December 07, 2012 - linkProbably not, but you can tell the OS to put the disks to sleep after a inactivity timeout. Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkIn my Shuttle SZ77R5, I've got an i7-3770k, a GeForce GTX 670, 16GB of RAM, two SSDs (with room for a third in mSATA format), and a BluRay burner. There is also room for an mPCIe wifi adapter if I should feel so inclined. Alternatively, I could have gone with one mSATA SSD and two 3.5" HDDs for bulk storage, but I have a big file server and so don't need bulk storage in my desktop.
It's hard to imagine what else you might need in a typical gaming PC. I guess there could be people who have need of more than one optical drive, or more than three hard disks, or some monster dual GPU graphics card, but those people would be few and far between.
There is one critical flaw in the system, though. The BIOS (even the latest update claiming to fix the problem) can't read the temperature properly from IvyBridge CPUs, and as such, will let the thing fry before spinning up the CPU fan. Your options are either to permanently run it on jet-engine-loud mode, or to do what I did and use something like SpeedFan to do a custom fan profile.
Having to use SpeedFan isn't a problem for me, but someone less technically inclined may not be able to solve the problem like this, and would consider it a fatal flaw. Reply
pirspilane - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkDoes anyone know if you can store an Outlook profile on this file server so you could use the same profile with any computer that is connected? Reply
vectorm12 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkIn theory yes. You could hardlink the directory to the directory on the server using a NTFS hard link. Although I haven't tried anything like that before(other than the mobile archive feature of Exchange Server which works in a similar matter) it should again in theory work as any outlook related services will launch well after the network stack and thus prevent the risk of invalidating the hard link. Reply
beisat - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkBuilding a relatively small and quiet system today is much easier than a few years ago, and I perfectly see the evolution on all the parts you mentioned. As well I see much quieter and more efficient PSU these days - but will there be a point in time where their size decreases as well? So far ATX PSU still seem the norm in the online shops of my country, and at that all are 350W+, pointsless for one CPU without a dedicated GPU and an SSD. Reply
bobbozzo - Friday, December 07, 2012 - linkThere are smaller power supplies, and some cases require them, but the current problem is there is no standard form factor for them; every case manufacturer has a different size or mount. Reply
Cyleo - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI really like the file server systems. Maybe a real guide (install, WHS etc) is an idea? I for one would be excited to read about it. Reply
SeanFL - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI've built this case 5 or 6 times for a really tiny build. In Win did a nice job with it. Initially put in an i3 2120t, but their new design also allows for the i3-2120 or any i3 or i5 you would want to put in. The samsung 830 really made it fly.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8... Reply
jhoff80 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkIt's probably just me, but I would absolutely love to see a super-slim mini-ITX case, designed for gaming, that has zero drive bays (why bother, when many boards have mSATA), a full-sized ATX PSU, and a PCIE x16 riser board and then two slots out the back of the case in order to use a gaming GPU.
Most of these gaming cases have like 4 drive bays and a full sized 5.25" too, but that's really overkill these days, as far as I'm concerned. Reply
Ananke - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkLian Li Q-series. Check them, They have several of the type you look for. Reply
jhoff80 - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkReally? All of the Lian Li Q models that I've seen have a bunch of drive bays (too large) or have 0 or 1 expansion slots, and/or a SFX 300W PSU, making them not conducive to gaming.
Maybe I missed one though. Reply
bobbozzo - Friday, December 07, 2012 - linkHow slim can it be with a full ATX PSU? Reply
shurik_1 - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkAs I wrote in comments to ASRock Vision HT 321B review there is at least one ASRock product that has issue with silent data corruption that it refuses to fix and does not inform users that their data is in jeopardy. How can you recommend the MB from the company with such track record? Reply
just4U - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - link"Though the K-series chip is easy to overclock and doesn't produce much additional heat (vs. stock)"
THIS is somewhat misleading.. and readers need to be very aware of the fluxuations in temperatures on the new Intel cpu's regardless of what casing and cooling solutions they use..
Personally I am quite upset with intel. I'd thought they'd finally moved away from the heatscore solution which in my opinion hurts the longevity of a computer. If I can get them I still default to a sandybridge cpu over these newer proccessors. Reply
Piano Man - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI don't get all of the adulation Prodigy gets, especially for gaming. Look at it's dimensions and weight. Over 17lbs and 9.84" x 15.91" x 14.13" . And its mini-ITX.
Temjin TJ08-e is around 12 lbs and 15.16" x 8.27" x 14.72". And its Micro ATX and can hold 2 GPUs and a Heatsink like the Noctua D14. Not to mention it has a massive 180mm intake.
The Prodigy would be better if it got rid of those stupid handles that waste space. Hard to recommend a mini-ITX that is bigger than a uATX case. Reply
just4U - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI quite like the case your refering to.. (my 2700K build here..) http://imageshack.us/a/img607/4497/dscf0512k.jpg
Your right to you can fit a whole helluva lot into it and it still seems quite roomy. It's not the easiest case to work with though.. Reply
abrogan - Friday, December 07, 2012 - linkI just finished two high-end builds, with the first computer using the Temjin and the second the Prodigy.
The Prodigy is surprisingly large but easy to build (especially with a stubby screw driver). Lots of room to put extra cables along the sides. Be careful to buy a 140mm psu, as the first PSU I purchased didn't fit. I liked all the colour options (-:
The Temjin fit all standard supplies 160mm or shorter so it gets the nod from me for wide compatibility. Perfect for the professionals. My friends all liked the look of the Temjin better but the Prodigy is for the oddballs out there who like high quality soft touch plastic looking Mac Pros.
The Prodigy was just fun because of its unique nature however I would ask Bitfenix to make the plastic fins an optional feature as well. There are no rubber feet to provide access to the PSU on the bottom without the fins installed and there are gaps on top without the top fin. If you could remove the plastic fins I'd say it would be pretty awesome and 30 dollars cheaper than the Temjin!
Both are pretty nice! Reply
Wrathgar11 - Saturday, December 08, 2012 - linkYou are so right.
I thought seriously about the Prodigy case before I bought my Node 304. No regrets, IMHO the Node beats it hands down and fits under my TV too.
An under-rated case is the Core 1000, which Fractal sell as a mini ITX/micro ATX case. In reality the internal dimension are too small for an mATX board, but as an enclosure for a mini ITX desktop system (my current setup) it is brilliant.
Core 1000 is no good as a gaming case, but for this application it rocks.
Great price too, I got it from Enta around £25. Reply
pvdw - Monday, December 10, 2012 - linkLove the TJ08-E! It's almost completely inaudible with a Seasonic S12II-430 and the front fan slowed ever so slightly.
Plus, how are gamers supposed to do a dual-GPU config in mini-ITX? Easy in the TJ08-E. Reply
pvdw - Monday, December 10, 2012 - linkBTW, forgot to mention that it also gets an Editor's Choice from SPCR. Reply
xismo - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI've been interested in a small form factor build for a while but for a different reason. I travel around and live in different places usually for extended periods of time (1+ year). So the possibility of putting my pc in a carry on and only having to buy a $200 display after I get where I need to go while still getting double the power of a laptop was always very intriguing. But I never pulled the trigger mostly because I should eventually settle down and so want to build a full build.
Can you guys recommend the smallest possible case that can accommodate either mini-ITX or preferrably micro-ATX (would like to have 4x ram slots) while also having enough room for a GPU (nothing too powerful something like 630 or 640). Do you think it's even possible to cool the specs mentioned above appropriately with a quad core i5 in a small case that can fit in a carry on? Reply
KAlmquist - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkI'm guessing that the power supply in the budget build is an Apex AL-8250SFX from Allied Leader International, manufactured by Deer Electronics/Solytech. Deer/Solytech is a name you probably recognize only if you read <a href="http://www.hardocp.com/article/2007/10/03/50_power... of cheap power supplies</a> for their <a href="http://www.hardocp.com/article/2007/05/23/450w500w... value</a>.
As far as I can determine, a decent power supply cannot be built for less than about $40. Back in July, Anandtech published <a href="http://www.anandtech.com/show/6013/350450w-roundup... Roundup: 11 Cheap PSUs</a>." Martin Kaffei's conclusion about the $28 unit: <a href="http://www.anandtech.com/show/6013/350450w-roundup... PSUs have no right to exist."</a>
Based on price and pedigree, I'd wager that the power supply in the budget build is crap. If I'm wrong, that's a "man bites dog" story and Anandtech should do a full review of this PSU. Reply
KAlmquist - Wednesday, December 05, 2012 - linkSorry about the last post--the Anandtech comment system doesn't like HTML in comments. Here is a fixed version:
I'm guessing that the power supply in the budget build is an Apex AL-8250SFX from Allied Leader International, manufactured by Deer Electronics/Solytech. Deer/Solytech is a name you probably recognize only if you read reviews[1] of cheap power supplies for their entertainment value[2].
As far as I can determine, a decent power supply cannot be built for less than about $40. Back in July, Anandtech published "350-450W Roundup: 11 Cheap PSUs." Martin Kaffei's conclusion about the $28 unit: "Some PSUs have no right to exist."[4]
Based on price and pedigree, I'd wager that the power supply in the budget build is crap. If I'm wrong, that's a "man bites dog" story and Anandtech should do a full review of this PSU.
[1] http://www.hardocp.com/article/2007/10/03/50_power...
[2] http://www.hardocp.com/article/2007/05/23/450w500w...
[3] http://www.anandtech.com/show/6013/350450w-roundup...
[4] http://www.anandtech.com/show/6013/350450w-roundup... Reply
pvdw - Monday, December 10, 2012 - linkMy first thought was that the power supply was junk, but SPCR reviewed this case and recommended it. Not that I would buy it, but I'm usually a step above budget builds. Reply
Dug - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkTry some Wesena cases that look really nice.
http://www.shop.perfecthometheater.com/Wesena-chas... Reply
Don-Roland - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - link>AMD gaming system
>AMD gaming
>AMD Reply
hasseb64 - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkCome on Zach!
A 500W PSU with bronze as a fileserver PSU?
First: A PSU in that application is an investment, smaller and higher efficency is a must!
2: You would NEVER EVER need more than 300W, I would gladly recommend even lower if more were on hand on this broken PSU market. Reply
KAlmquist - Sunday, December 09, 2012 - linkGood catch. I was so surprised to see Zach recommend a no-name power supply in the budget build that I missed this one. He says he chose it because it "is one of the smallest ATX power supplies available." The ST50F-P is 150mm by 86mm by 140mm, which is the standard size for an ATX12V power supply. For the same price or less you could get a high quality Gold rated power supply with the same dimensions and a wattage rating more than adequate for the system. For example, the SeaSonic SSR-360GP (360W) is about $66. That said, if you insist on modular connectors then the ST50F-P might be the best you can do. Reply
StardogChampion - Thursday, December 06, 2012 - linkRealan (the folks who bring you the Habey EMC-800/600) also have a nice line of mini-ITX HTPC cases with built-in power supplies. Check these out:
http://www.ecosmartpc.com/ei7.html Reply
Foeketijn - Friday, December 07, 2012 - linkIn my experience, the parts that break the most are the powersupply , and then a tie between the mobo, HDD and videocard. I can't remember ever having to replace something else and not having coffee involved. Years ago I quit selling the budget builds, because one out of five systems going bad in lets say three years was just to much troubles for my likings. In most cases you trow in e extra 50 euro (same story probably goes for dollars) and have much happier customers in the long run. Since these days you can really buy a lot of processing power in the budget area I am tempted going for a m-ITX build for the silent tiny office boxes. Only which PSU to select.
I am not really confident in selling a system with an ST50F-P when an in-depth analysis from Anandtech (one of the most trustworthy sources) says:
"Most capacitors are made by CapXon and OST; these are very cheap capacitors compared to other brands and may not hold up as well long-term."
Especially in a fileserver, I don't get skimping on the power supply.
Ideally I would take an low power, silent part designed for workstations/servers. Only they are as far as I can find not in ATX size.
Is there a good alternative when the bar for endurance is a bit higher? Reply
Wrathgar11 - Saturday, December 08, 2012 - linkGreat write-up. SFF has been a central feature of computing to me for some time.
My fileserver is a Mini ITX Supermicro X7SPA based system in a Fractal Core 3000 case (used with various larger boards beforehand), my media PC is another atom based system in a Node 304 case and my desktop is a DH61DL based i3 unit in a Core 1000 case.
All are mini-itx boards, two fanless and silent and all very reliable (the HTPC and desktop have no moving parts, are SSD equipped and also run silent Pico PSU's).
My gaming system is a PS3. That uses more power than the 3 PC's combined. Reply
philipma1957 - Sunday, December 09, 2012 - linkFIRST off the asrock z77e-itx is a great board but it should have a crucial msata 256gb ssd.
it has sold as low as 169. that adds 100 bucks to the price. no need for the 1 tb hdd in a gamer.
second the cooler master case fits a hd7970 so just do it.
that adds 200 to the price.
third the cooler master elite needs 1 mod a 4 inch circle saw cuts a hole right where the cooler master logo is put in a cheap grill
and temps drop 5-10c. this saves you 20 over the bitFenix case.
fourth a full size psu drops in cost of 75 to 90
so price is about 1200
but top of the line cpu
top of the line graphics card and a full sized psu. if you want to cut costs get the hd7950 save a hundred 1100 gives you a full
powered gamer. I like this cooler master build so much I have 3 of them under my belt. Reply
batguiide - Sunday, December 09, 2012 - linkShare
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I bought two. Cheap, good quality, you can
go and ship with there. Reply
yhselp - Monday, December 10, 2012 - linkIt's great that you do an SFF guide, but this one feels somehow … toned down. You say "There's also an aesthetic appeal to minimalists like me who like the efficiency of having no more computer than necessary to accomplish computing purposes.", and then proceed to recommend rather conservative builds. I'm not saying we should be on the extreme thermal edge, but none of the configurations you suggest are optimized and focused (except for the file server on the condition one needs all the HDD bays).
For the budget build you could use an M350 enclosure, sure, it's more expensive but it's also much more compact. At $100 (including a picoPSU and a power brick) I think it's a great deal for what you're getting. You have to use a 2.5" HDD for it, but then again you can find those (1TB) for as little as $70 now. What you end up is an impossibly small toy-a-of-box which you can slap on the back of your monitor if you wanted to.
For the gaming build you could use a Silverstone SG06-450 – you can fit any (single GPU) video card in there and the PSU would take it. It also has two drive bays (3.5" and 2.5"). It's well-ventilated, trust me – I used to run an i5-750 and a GTX 470 in that thing. I even installed a closed-loop liquid CPU cooler in one of those. Heck, for the BitFenix Prodigy's size you could build a full-fledged system. I mean that, two GTX 690s, or one 690s and a dedicated PhsyX video card, or anything that fits in 4 slots, a number of HDD bays, ODD, ATX PSU, liquid CPU cooling – the works. There are at least 4 enclosures from Silverstone alone that can pull this off.
I respect what you're doing, I'm an SFF proponent myself, but I'd really like to know the motivation behind your conservative choices. Anandtech is a very reputable source (if not THE source) and many people read what's on the site as 'law', that's the reason why I'm being so thorough – I think more SFF options should be voiced. Reply
pvdw - Monday, December 10, 2012 - linkZach, if you want your buyer's guides to be taken seriously you need to do more research.
I'm certainly no expert, but as I mentioned in a previous review of small server builds, part selection is completely different from gaming machines. A 500W PSU for a server build??? You really need to check out the Seasonic S12II-380 and 330. They have no problem handling 6 drive home server builds, are practically silent, and much more efficient. You could go with the modular if you need space.
Also, an alternative to the Node 304 is the Lian Li PC-Q08, which may well be a better choice noise-wise. There's no way to tell from the Node 304 review since Anandtech simply doesn't have the equipment to compare quiet builds.
BTW, I love most reviews and articles on this site, but some like this are just annoying. Reply
war59312 - Monday, December 10, 2012 - linkHi,
Small typo on page 3:
"hopefully a 4GB model will be available soon."
That should of course be 4TB, not GB. :)
Take Care,
Will Reply


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Young Adult Summer Book and More Club!
Jul 19, 2012
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Mark the dates on your calendars! June 7th, June 21st and July 19th from 7-8pm the Young Adult Department will be hosting Book and More discussions. Pick up our book club book, read it and be ready to share your thoughts, likes and dislikes of the book with the group. Then be prepared to share your ideas on whatever else your are currently reading or watching.
The first book for the Summer Book and More Club will be Catching Jordan by Miranda Kenneally. Copies will be available by June 1st. Other books will be chosen at the first meeting. No format will be discouraged, either. Poetry, prose, graphic novels, even a recent movie can be discussed during this time! (But please, no movie spoilers. No one wants to know who Luke's father really is.)
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