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Intel's 2011 Investor Meeting - Intel's Architecture Group: 14nm Airmont Atom In 2014by Ryan Smith on 5/17/2011 6:27 PM EST
63 Comments
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ibudic1 - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - linkI am also having doubts going beyond 14nm. The quantum physics will start to show its ugly head. I think that the transistor thickness will be too narrow for the quantum affects of electrons "jumping" over to another gate.
I know that this was said before, but this time, I don't think they will be able to cheat physics.
Also is anyone else nervous about 3 gate transistors? Reply
ghost55 - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - linkthey said the same thing about 92nm and the light diffusion limit, and look where we are today. my guess, is that they will go down to the transistor limit of one atom thick, ten atoms wide (they have made transistors that size) and then stuff like layered circuit boards, optical processors, and graphene will come into play. also, the 3-gate transistor will probably be a major step forward. Reply
softdrinkviking - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - link3 gate transistors seem fine to me, but they seem like a stopgap tech on the way to a whole new way of building transistors rather than a step in a new direction. Reply
FunBunny2 - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - link-- a whole new way of building transistors rather than a step in a new direction.
Now, that's wishful thinking. If the limit is 1 X 10 atom device, transistor or otherwise, that's the limit. For an electrical device. Which brings up the various notions of bio or photon based device. Someone has to invent the valve/transistor/foo equivalent first, though. Reply
numberoneoppa - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkMemristors! Reply
therealnickdanger - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkOr maybe we'll just see a return of large computers! Can't build the chips smaller? Put more chips in! :) Reply
wumpus - Friday, May 20, 2011 - linkFrom memory, there have been light issues starting from closer to 1000nm (going submicron). Around 90nm (and really happening the next step down) leakage became an issue. This is even more apropos to the discussion in that the transistors themselves weren't working as they used to. Before you got cheaper, faster, lower power. After 90nm you had cheaper, faster, lower power: pick two (and if you don't work on lowering power heat will go up exponentially as you shrink your process).
As we keep going, the number of miracles needed for each step pile up. I think that between the money and invested equipment, the show can go on, but don't expect it to be CMOS transistors. Reply
kb3edk - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - link14nm is not the end of the road but it's pretty darn close. We will probably see a 10nm process node around 2016 and then a "final" 6nm process in 2018 or so before quantum mechanics finally brings an end to the age of Moore's Law.
I'm extrapolating out from this interview with an Intel engineer from a few years ago... http://www.webcitation.org/5hjItXYEI
He seems very confident that Intel will just keep on chugging away with nanotubes and whatnot... I am less convinced however. I think that as this decade comes to a close, the only major improvements in CPUs will be in microarchitecture not lithography. It could even be the end of the road for x86 altogether, it's possible the CPUs of the 2020s are what we call GPUs today. Reply
FunBunny2 - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - link-- It could even be the end of the road for x86 altogether.
IIRC, it's been years since Intel burned the instruction set into hardware. They've been using all those millions of transistors to a RISC hardware, with an emulation layer for the X86 on top. Why they did that rather than use the budget to make really fast X86 hardware is instructive. Even IBM, starting with the 360, knew enough to emulate the cheap machines and build the instruction set into hardware for the fast machines. The only plausible answer is to provide an escape hatch from X86. Reply
Strunf - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkMillions of transistor out of billions don't seem to me to be much of an handicap. It's not the decode from x-86 to microOps that makes the x86 worst than anything else, this is just a small step on the whole processing process and probably the least demanding. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkThe truth is far more prosaic. Like in all instruction sets that were originally designed on the CISC model, some x86 instructions require much more work than others do. To keep the CPU from running much more slowly than it needed to 99% of the time implementing the instructions in microcode and then using more RISC like execution units internally is the obvious way to go.
Lest you think that means RISC "won" the architecture war, MMX, SSE, and more recently on die IGPs as specialized instruction sets for specific subsets of the work are a CISC concept. The war ended when die space grew large enough to combine the best of both worlds on a single chip. Reply
wumpus - Friday, May 20, 2011 - linkThe real driver of the CISC school of though was to make writing assembler as easy as a high level language (google "closing the semantic gap"). That idea is dead and buried. The only other issue that CISC might try to do is to reduce size of code. In modern terms, that means the pressure on the instruction cache (I could code hello world into a <20 byte .COM file in assembler. Don't ask what it compiles to now).
SSE, MMX and all are a revival of vector design. The big catch is that CRAY machines included scatter/gather functions to access memory better. Not going to happen on current designs. The "latest thing" is the fused multiply-add (don't watch as intel and AMD botch the standard), which has been a DSP concept since forever. I suppose that all these ideas work to reduce the size of the inner loops (in bytes), but I wouldn't call them "CISC concepts, since often they appeared on RISC machines first. Reply
ibudic1 - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkabout 2016...
At the beginning of the 2015 it will be obvious that the production of oil will drop by about 3% / year. Google Peak Oil. Since energy is inelastic in terms of price, this will send the prices of everything through the roof, and the world economy will be close to or will collapse.
So if for no other technical reason I doubt that we will be seeing 10/11 nm soon or ever. If we do see 10/11 nm it will be many years down the road, probably not before 2020. A little after that or at about the same time US will have lost its dominance in both economic and military power as a world leader. - I've read an article from some CIA analyst claiming this.
So be ready for 2015+. Reply
Thermogenic - Friday, May 20, 2011 - linkWell, if you read it on the Internet, I guess that means it has to be true! Reply
ibudic1 - Sunday, May 22, 2011 - linkHm... where do you get your info?
Your friend? Books? Newspapers? What's your point? Wiki articles for the uninitiated.
Thank you. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkThe age of Moore's Law will extend far beyond the limits of the current litographic process family, as there are many other ways to go faster, many unexploited yet because they were not the (only) best choice. Reply
GullLars - Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - linkMoore's Law describes the transistor density at the most optimal cost/transistor point, not power or speed of said transistors. If you could find a way to double transistor density at the same cost every 18 months without shrinking the transistor size, it would still count.
Solving some problems can be improved with near perfect scaling by more transistors, other problems quickly experience diminishing returns. This makes the case for the necessity of faster transistors. Many problems are not optimized in the way they are being solved today, and still has a lot of potential there. Moore's law alone is not the fate of the computational industry, although it has been the driver of a gloden age. Reply
Jacmert - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - link- "Also is anyone else nervous about 3 gate transistors?"
What I'm worried about is the 4 gate push. We'll probably see less of that now, though, since Blizzard nerfed the warp gate research time in the last patch. #starcraft2 Reply
Ammaross - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - link- "Also is anyone else nervous about 3 gate transistors?"
More "gates" = more accurate signaling at higher speeds or lower voltages. The more accurate or low power a specific set of transistors need to be, the more gates they'll put (up to 5 was mentioned...). The usual is likely going to float in the 2-3 range. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkGood .. I'll go back to Queen rushing then ;) Reply
dgz - Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - linkYou just won the Internet. Thanks for the laugh. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linknervous ? what for ?
Anyway, good pressure from Intel .. let's see if the other fabs can compete xD
Because otherwise we might see some more "Sandy Bridge vs Phenom II" slaughterfests .. interesting. Reply
fri2219 - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - linkInvestor: Did you guys miss the boat on low power chips? It seems like the growth sectors in general and mobile computing applications are being staked out by your competitors.
Intel: "HEY LOOK AT THIS OVER HERE, IT'S A BALLOON ANIMAL!"
I have no doubt that this time they'll get low power right, just like they've done with Parallel Processing, Graphics, Networking, and Memory.
P.S. The Cubs are GOING TO WIN THE WORLD SERIES!!!!! (In 2014) Reply
arse_luvr - Tuesday, May 17, 2011 - linkHa! Comment of the day. You sir, have hit the nail on the head. 10/10 Reply
KMJ1111 - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkJust because they don't list the power levels in the first slide and then extend the SOC to about 8W on another doesn't mean it they aren't getting the lower power level right. Your phone just gets the added feature of being a hand warmer for as long as your battery will last...imagine all the cold regions you could sell it in! I mean their first phone is with Finnish Nokia, right?
Cool that they are lowering the power for other chips though! I'll be loving a future laptop for all day working and commuting! The slim design if it was really that thick would be awesome! Reply
ebolamonkey3 - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkIf I could +rep this post, I would! Reply
TeXWiller - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkInstead of balloons they are probably talking about air gaps at 14 nm process node.. Reply
umbrel - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkI get your point, but as much as any entusiast hates Intel's performancein those areas (Parallel Processing, Graphics, Networking, and Memory), if they do in smartphones as "bad" as they have done there (commercially), they might just get that 50% market share they are promising for 2016. Reply
wumpus - Friday, May 20, 2011 - linkJust how often has intel made a penny in anything other than x86 desktops and x86 servers? The push into servers was probably intel's last profitable side adventure, but largely started out as renaming existing chips with a different brand and charging heaps of money for it.
They can afford to fail often. They do cut back when they fail too often. Reply
GullLars - Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - linkThey were really successfull with x25-M and x25-E (gen 1). Too bad the market wasn't ready at the NAND cost pr GB back then. And since then they completely dropped the ball. The 510 is a re-brand, and a year late. If they had bought Fusion-IO back in 08-09 they could have had a field day in the server market about now. Efficient high-performance storage is becomming a multi-billion dollar industry, and is trending to go far into double digits in this decade. Data mining, relational databases and dynamic services are growing fast. Reply
SteelCity1981 - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkIntel has been blind sided by ARM. I guess Intels cocky attitude has got the better of them and now all of a sudden they are feeling the heat from ARM and even AMD in the Micro device sector. Reply
Stuka87 - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkWell Intel sat around for years with basically no changes to the Atom. Yes they added a dual core model, and hyper threading, but neither of those are architectural changes.
This gave ARM and AMD time to develop their own products to compete in the same market. They now have a head start and Intel has to play catch up. But with as much money as Intel has, I doubt it will take them long to catch back up. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkIntel needed process shrinks to get the atom's die size small enough to play in the smart phone arena. Architecture changes that would make it larger again would have been counter productive.
For comparison the Tegra 2 (only dual core a9 I could find numbers on) is 260M, with the cpus only taking 10% of the total. The original single core atoms were 47M transistors for what was basically just the CPU, D510 atom is 176m transistors and presumably uses roughly half its transistors on the CPU cores. I couldn't find a transistor count for the NM10 southbridge, but assuming the transistor count is proportional to the package size (weak assumption but I don't have anything better) it would have about 115M transistors. Granted not all of them are for things needed in a smartphone/tablet OTOH it also lacks some things one would need; but at 45nm the atom platform barely has transistor parity and has significantly less transistors to use for things like the GPU.
It won't be until the 32nm shrink that Intel will be able to get enough transistors to catch up on the GPU size. Coming from the other direction, the Cortex A15 is a much more complex design and will presumably be significantly larger, reducing Intels dependence on the process advantage/raw CPU power to be competitive. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkWell you're wrong to doubt.
How long has Intel tried to make gfx ?
How far are they ?
Quite a while and nowhere are the answers ...
And there are quite a few markets Intel is not going to win anytime soon, and I suspect they will lose the SSD market within the next five years aswell, they're behind on controller tech and they're clearly not the only ones with high quality NAND fabs.
The reason Intel would remain on top would be that we know they can redo what they did in the Athlon era: playing dirty, and doing it damn well.
That Intel was able to pass through an era of more than 3 years of technological inferiority without suffering any heavy market losses is the proof they are financially solid - that doesn't help with the tech though, even if the core era has been quite strong since. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Sunday, May 22, 2011 - linkWhile their graphics efforts (more on this and a few other things later) haven't yielded a supremely viable product they have improved an awful lot while lowering their power envelope. Further, they are willing, and this is something they should get a lot of respect for, to put their research to good use no matter what it's original intent. Larrabee was introduced as their move towards high end graphics, and while it was canceled as a stand alone product it is still a big focus in their efforts to compete in HPC. As we know now, Conroe was the result of an exercise in developing mobile chips, a move they made well ahead of the markets move towards laptops as the workhorses of our tech ecology.
Think of it this way, Intel squeezes something out of every bit of research they do, so even if their SoC's don't compete with ARM, they will use the technology to move the goal line forward somewhere. Reply
j108b - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkNow I just hope that Intel will give real confirmation if Ivy Bridge (s1155) will work on existing chipsets. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkIntel + long-term platform = boom. Reply
dragosmp - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkAbout:
"The basis for Fast Flash Standby is that while going into sleep is fast, it requires leaving the RAM powered up to hold its contents, which is why sleep is only good for a few days of standby versus weeks for hibernation."
I agree with your assessment about "Sleep", but to you say "Hibernation" holds for a few weeks is wrong. Hibernation = Shut Down from the battery life perspective; a computer can stay in Hibernation mode indefinitely and it would not consume any more battery than if it were Shut down. One can dismantle a rig, rebuild it and the rig will resume from Hibernation. I have done with mine a few years ago: dismantled, packed, flown by plane, rebuilt and it resumed exactly where it left off.
I am writing this post as some users seem to think Hibernation is some sort of deeper-Sleep and quantifying the battery life under Hibernation vs in Sleep mode only supports this misconception. Intel's tech is of doubtful usage as now if a computer has an SSD as OS drive and Hibernation mode enabled then this Fast Flash Standby already exists. Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkI don't disagree with you (Jarred could say more, this is his specialty). However those numbers specifically came from Intel. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkQuite simply Ryan, hibernation is this :
-> Write all RAM contents to hiberfil.sys
-> Force Shutdown
Then when you go out of it :
-> Load OS
-> Load back all RAM
And there you go.
Because of that, you can hibernate as long as your storage device (hdd or ssd or anything you'd like to use) can live, quite a lot yes.
Intel can say any random shit they want, they did not write the windows hibernation thingy, so the only real info you can get is @ microsoft. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkSadly, "weeks of hibernation" is probably an apt description for most laptops. I've had a lot of laptops where the battery will discharge slowly just sitting on my desk, to where it will be pretty much dead after a month (and certainly after two). Sure, hibernation will still resume from where you left off, but the battery drain is irritating. Use better battery technology already, OEMs!
Other than that, you're correct. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkAre you talking about permanently plugged in laptops ?
Because my boss killed his n900 battery just like that.. and his laptop's too I think ... Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkNo, I'm talking about low quality Li batteries that just don't hold a charge. I've seen it with Dell, HP, Acer, Toshiba, Sony, etc. batteries. Simply put, all batteries are *not* created equal. Most of the business stuff, not surprisingly, is better than the consumer stuff. I just wish I could have a laptop battery that would hold 80% of its charge if left on the shelf for a year -- and I do have some Eneloop AA rechargeable batteries that will do exactly that. Reply
Interested Novice - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkDo you mean 'of doubtful usage' if you already have an SSD in your PC? Obviously most smartphone and tablet users have an SSD but I expect the number of PC users that already have SSD-capability is very small. This seems like the best of both-worlds - a hybrid storage strategy that lets you enjoy the best of solid-state and HDD storage. That said I think the solution will be a commodity instead of something that Intel can differentiate, at least outside of the short-term. Reply
GullLars - Tuesday, May 24, 2011 - link"I expect the number of PC users that _already_ have SSD-capability is very small"
Already? I've had SSD for 3 years now. Most of my close family and friends for about 2 years. Everyone i game with online has had for at least a year. I suspect the line is drawn where people know that there is a storage device inside their computer, and it's not just magically a part of the box with the power button.
That said, the number of people who don't think this could be concidered small. I think about 10-15% of users. This will change as major laptop manufacturers start including SSDs as boot drives as default sometime in the next 1-3 years. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkI believe you are correct.
Furthermore, if said disk is an SF-based disk, there's quite a chance it'll kill the Intel solution by a fair margin, there's usually a lot of replicated data within RAM (i.e. it's uncompressed). Reply
Lucian Armasu - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkIntel is just trying to capture some mindshare by announcing chips years ahead of launch. I don't think that will work. ARM is just one processing node behind Intel, so ARM chips will be at 28nm in 2012, and at 20nm in 2014. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkYup, and the fact is, at the same node, both AMD and ARM kill Intel single handedly.
They'll need a big hit like the core architecture, but can they do it in low power and stuff.... I doubt it, they do NOT have GPU's, and they will have to either partner w/ nVidia or other people in order to compensate.
Not part of their slides (quite normal, that would change stock ratings) but it's their only way out. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkThe old rule of thumb was always that an architecture was good for a bit under a 10x spread in power levels with the outer edges being somewhat ragged, like Intel's old extreme processors that were only marginally faster than the next lower powered bin or the ULV processors that took a massive performance hit vs the LV ones in the same family.
I'm wondering if that's still true now as we continue to move to a many core model. If you design a core with a sweet spot in the 3-10W range, you can get 15W mobile quad cores for the low end, and 120W 12 core processors for high end servers out of the same architecture.
My suspicion is that a large part of how Intel intends to get power numbers for their mobile parts down to half their current range is going to be by making the IB mobile chips 22nm die shrinks of the current ones, and not bumping the core counts at each price point; and then repeating the no core count increases when Haswell launches. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkWhat an Insight ... lol
Just kidding man, but have you seen the latest from AMD, and the next latest ? ^^ Reply
dealcorn - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkWhere did you get the slide of "Medfield" comparative Power Consumption? Page 10 of Anand Chandrasekher's Investor Meeting pdf has the same data but identifies it as Moorestown. Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkThat slide came from the following deck, which was the architecture group's presentation.
http://intelstudios.edgesuite.net/im/2011/pdf/2011... Reply
dealcorn - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkOK, 2010 IM PDF Chandrasekher presents the Power Consumption data as Moorestown and it is based on a combination of measurements and targets. 2011 IM PDF Perlmutter presents the identical data but calls it Medfield and it is based on estimates. Either the Moorestown data was off or we are being sandbagged as 32nm will be more efficient than 45nm. Reply
StormyParis - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - link:I always love those slides that compare today's products to tomorrow's. Assuming ARM stands still, Intel will rule the roost.
It's funny how Intel have a clear lead in process technology, which allows them to keep their x86 lead, but have pretty much failed at everything else (network, wireless, itanium, graphics...).
It'll be fun to see if/how they can compete with ARM. I'm not really holding my breath, seeing how see still can't really do integrated graphics right, ad have been for years hyping stuff that never materializes. Reply
umbrel - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - link" but have pretty much failed at everything else (network, wireless, itanium, graphics...).
It'll be fun to see if/how they can compete with ARM. I'm not really holding my breath, seeing how see still can't really do integrated graphics right"
If they compete with ARM the same way they have done in integrated graphics they will have 50% marketshare, you know that right?
Not that I disagree with your complaint with their performance, but as a company they have comercially succeded is all those areas:
Network: I don't know... do you mean Ethernet? Routers? Cloud services?
Wireless: first ones to deploy 3.5G (wimax)... probably will loose against LTE though; I think they have the most market share for wi-fi; does having the wireless chip in the iphone counts as Intel's win? technically that was Infineon's.
Itanium: loosing against their own x86... still managed to survive Cray and Sun, and IBM is still there but I haven't heard much besides Watson.
Graphics: Intel has 50% market share... the cheaper 50% though Reply
i_just_took_a_crap - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - link"they compete with ARM the same way they have done in integrated graphics they will have 50% marketshare, you know that right?"
You've missed the mark as much as humanly possible. Intel's IGP marketshare has less to do with a competitive product, and more to do with their CPU monopoly. Nobody wants or needs Intel-anything in their phone, and you can bet any design wins Atom gets will be heavily "subsidized" by Intel.
You're also way off about Itanium, it's a fair bet to say you're not an IT professional. Those are all mainframe CPUs, which are used to run various mission-critical systems that normal people never get to see up close (ATMs, highly important/sensitive database apps, etc...). Itanium's performance sucks, it has no advantage over IBMs or Sun's mainframes, and the die size is substantially larger than the biggest Nvidia GPU. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkBoom.
Nice one. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkWell, last time I wanted to look for a wireless card, there was an intel mini pcie @ 13 bucks doing bgn .. can't say I wasn't pleased.
Itanium .. lol, they were lucky Oracle partnered on that shit.
Intel should buy nVidia and that's it .. maybe Huang is just waiting for more market share to buy Intel, or be bought at twice the price .. who knows. Reply
SimpleLance - Wednesday, May 18, 2011 - linkIntel talks in watts, whereas ARM talks in miliwatts.
The only advantage that Intel has today is in fabrication. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Sunday, May 22, 2011 - linkI will mention that this same point was made during the architecture group, possibly during the Q&A. You can talk in Watts or milliwatts, but performance per watt/milliwatt is where Intel wants to compete. And I'm really fascinated by whether their efforts will pay off. Certainly it's fair to say that as ARM performance increases its power envelope has increased as well, even if it's still counting in milliwatts.
I guess the message I'm trying to evangelize is: Keep an open mind, and always be ready to be impressed, otherwise you're not going to have as much fun. Reply
mosu - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkWhy Intel is feeding us with crappy Atoms when they can do better?That's why I don't like Intel, no DX11, no decent sound, lots of limitations and promises of future chips but in fact they are waiting for others to produce something they can "upgrade" later. Reply
vision33r - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkOutside of netbooks, I can't think any tablet or smartphone maker willing to invest on Intel CISC based designs.
Android, iOS, and Windows Phone 7 all runs on ARM which are RISC based chips. Nobody is gonna go CISC when these OSes and apps are glued to RISC.
Intel made a major fail by pushing their designs too far and not make any painful push to RISC. Eventually the PC market will slow down because most companies and people don't need that much of an upgrade.
Don't tell me my grandma needs another Core i7 just for web surfing. Business customers do not need high end CPUs only servers do. Reply
L. - Thursday, May 19, 2011 - linkEven Servers don't "need" high-end CPU's, it's just much easier to cram as many cores as possible on the same die. In the end, what was a CPU has become a core and it's still roughly at the P4-performance level -- with some nice improvements alright.
AMD is a good example of the future of all that stuff:
Llano 1 bullmodule (don't know the real name or if amd has planned a 1 module llano but w/e they'll have to deactivate some modules and sell Xwhatever versions)
Llano 2 bullmodules
Bulldozer 4 bullmodules
Opterozer 6-a lot bullmodules Reply


text:
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One of the most ignored parts of airsoft is selecting the right BB bodyweight. The tragedy of new airsoft people is when they expend hours selecting out that shiny $300 AEG, only to load it with cheap .12g BBs and break the gun! Oh, instead of to say, you probably voided your warranty likewise!
Although you can find various weights for BBs, the four most commonly encountered kinds you'll see are .12g, .2g, .25g, and .3g. A number of important things it's best to be aware: the lighter the BB, the better your velocity or FPS. The heavier the BB, the greater accurate and much less impacted it really is by wind resistance. This implies your BB will truly journey even more than a lighter BB, while the lighter BB will have a higher velocity. The general rule should be to shoot the heaviest BB your gun operates with.
.12g BBs:
These BBs work nicely in spring guns or low driven electrical guns. Never use these bullets in substantial good quality electrical guns, because they could jam and destroy the internals! Numerous companies will take into account your gun void should you shoot .12g BBs! A single difficulty together with the .12g BBs is the fact that lots of horrible generic makes are supplied at huge box stores, and quite possibly shouldn't ever be employed! Make sure they can be seamless and precision ground BBs.
.2g BBs:
It is the commonest and acceptable fat for airsoft guns. They'll be utilized for nearly any gun besides really affordable pistols and minimal driven electrical guns. However, they are not suggested for higher finish sniper rifles. Should you be new on the video game, or perhaps are not sure which pounds to have, this can be the a person to suit your needs!
.25g BBs:
These are heavier grade BBs and should normally not be used in spring guns unless they may be sniper rifles. That is typically the preference of far more skilled airsoft gamers, because they give the very best accuracy and travel the furthest.
.3g BBs:
These BBs are predominantly meant for sniper rifles. They are going to deliver the best accuracy and distance, and will also pack quite a punch. It really is possible to employ these BBs within a high upgraded AEG, but otherwise you can be disappointed due to the minimal FPS.
The other weights you will discover are generally just a combine of what I've authored previously mentioned, so a .23g BB will trade some accuracy for any greater velocity. You are going to also discover ultra-heavy .36-.43g BBs which are meant for hugely upgraded sniper rifles.


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WATCH: The Lonely Island performs "YOLO" with Jimmy Fallon & The Roots
Listen to The Lonely Island on iHeartRadio
The Lonely Island was the musical guest on "Late Night with Jimmy Fallon" Thursday night, where the comedic trio performed their song "YOLO" from The Wack Album.
Jimmy Fallon and The Roots were on hand to participate, natch, and what ensued was pure awesomeness!
Check it out:


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Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was elected the 265th pope on April 19, 2005, and became Pope Benedict XVI.
He chose the name Benedict after St. Benedict of Nursia, patron saint of Italy, who founded the monastic Rule of St. Benedict in the sixth century, according to the Cultural Catholic.
"He represents a fundamental point of reference for the unity of Europe and a strong reminder of the unrenounceable Christian roots of its culture and civilization," Pope Benedict XVI has said.
According to conclave ritual, the new pope is asked to give his chosen name while the cardinals are still gathered in the Sistine Chapel in Vatican City.
Choosing a papal name is not a required Catholic practice, but over the centuries, it has become a tradition.
The first pope to change his name was John II in 533. His birth name was Mercurius or Mercury, the name of a pagan god. Once an exception, the practice became tradition in 996, when Bruno, the first German pope, became Gregory V.
The last pope to keep his birth name was Marcellus II in 1555.
The most popular papal names over the centuries have been John (23 popes), Gregory (16), Benedict (16, including the current pope), Clement (14), Innocent (13) and Pius (12).
Benedict means "blessing" in Latin. It joins several other papal names of holy origin, including Clement ("mercy"), Innocent ("hopeful" or "innocent") and Pius ("pious").
New popes nowadays often pick the name of a favorite saint or pope.
On April 27, 2005, during his first General Audience in St. Peter's Square, Benedict XVI explained his choice:
"Firstly, I remember Pope Benedict XV, that courageous prophet of peace, who guided the Church through turbulent times of war. In his footsteps I place my ministry in the service of reconciliation and harmony between peoples," he said. "Additionally, I recall St. Benedict of Nursia, co-patron of Europe, whose life evokes the Christian roots of Europe. I ask him to help us all to hold firm to the centrality of Christ in our Christian life: May Christ always take first place in our thoughts and actions."
Distributed by Internet Broadcasting. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


text: By Frank Armstrong By now you should have received your first mandated disclosure on your 401(k) plan. If nothing else, requiring employees to be furnished with relevant information on the costs features and performance of their retirement plans will prod plan sponsors to clean up crummy plans. There is nothing like potential liability and class action law suits to focus the mind on reforms. Take the time to read it. It's important to your future. I hope you have the world's greatest plan, but some of you will find that your plan sucks. Now what? The 401(k) as an investment plan The 401(k) is an investment plan first and foremost. Merely having a plan is not the same as having a good plan. As investment solutions, plans divide themselves into the Good, the Bad and The Ugly. Since you have to provide most of the money from your own pocket, you must decide if the plan is worth participating in. In my experience, many 401(k) plans can't stand on their own as superior investment programs. The knee jerk advice to max out you plan may not be the best possible course. Tax advantages are not the whole picture. The chief tax advantage of a qualified is deferral of tax on investment earnings. But, someday that tax and tax on all the account earnings will come due. Unless you are in a lower tax bracket after retirement, the tax advantage is negligible. By far the biggest advantage of a 401(k) is that it makes savings automatic. That's a good thing, but you can perhaps get a better result if you set up another more effective investment plan. Of course, you will have to supply the discipline to make sure you actually save. The Good: Of course, some are world class with low costs, superior funds, and great underlying features. Of course, if it's a great plan, you can't go wrong by maxing out your contributions. Lucky you! Go for it! The Bad: Some plans are tolerable with a few good choices. Perhaps those have a strong match by the employer which overcomes some of their flaws. When we consult with our executive clients we are often in the position of having to select the least awful choice from a dismal lineup. But, forget about being able to construct an appropriate asset allocation plan within the plan. Sometimes we will invest the minimum to get the match and invest your other retirement savings elsewhere.


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LG G2 and MSM8974 Snapdragon 800 - Mini Reviewby Brian Klug on 9/7/2013 1:11 AM EST
- Posted in
- Smartphones
- Mobile
- Android 4.2
- Snapdragon 800
120 Comments
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Crono - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI'm surprised this qualifies as a "mini" review (even for AnandTech), but I'm impressed by the graphics performance of the G2 more than anything else. I'm just wondering if there are any applications or games yet that can take advantage on Android. Reply
fteoath64 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThe graphics benchmarks put the Moto-X in a strong position een though it uses the older cores and newer Adreno 320 gpu. Granted it has only 1280X720 resolution, the overall performance is very close to the S800 with FullHD screens. This actually means that the Moto-X SoC is well optimized for it purposes. It also seems to beat the SGS4 in most graphics tests. Reply
Krysto - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThe test was done at 720p - for everyone - which means Moto X is beating most everyone else in GPU performance - at the same resolution. If you take the real world case, and put the others at their native 1080p resolution, then in the real world Moto X will be 2x better in gaming performance since it will push half the pixels.
Also Adreno 320 is not new. Is a year old, just like the S4 Pro CPU cores. Just because S4 and HTC One used the same GPU this year, doesn't mean it's "new". Reply
coolhardware - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkPretty nice point!
A question though, do any Android games render at a lower resolution and then upscale to fit native resolution?
Also, the LG G2 comes in about 6th place in top pixel density of phones
and it has the largest screen of those top 6 phones... #7 Lenovo / #8 Sony are bigger though :-)
Looking forward to the final review and seeing LTE performance! Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkAll the pixel density fad is apple's clever ploy to conceal their small screen. Resolution / size = density, so smaller screen will get higher dpi. However, it is quite obvious that if resolution is the same, larger screen is much easier on eye. Reply
FwFred - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkAgreed, we are well into the point of diminishing returns with PPI on high end smartphones. I'd imagine we are getting to the point where we are wasting power/performance for spec chasing. Reply
theduckofdeath - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkRR3 doesn't render in 1080p on the GS 4, I can clearly see pixelation in the 3D parts. I guess it might be because they're perhaps lazy in utilizing multi-core hardware? Because the game lags considerably when there are a lot of AI cars in front of you. Reply
warisz00r - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkIf the next Nexus phone is indeed based on this, then color me very stoked. Reply
Panickd - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkMaybe loosely "based on". According to the FCC paperwork the Nexus 5 has a display of roughly 4.96 inches to the G2's 5.2 inches. Looking at the pictures the camera is also in a different place on both as well. Not huge differences, mind you, but seems like a lot of work going into making them different if they are indeed based on the same general design.
I would plunk down for a G2 in a heartbeat if LG didn't have such a shoddy support and update record for their phones. I currently own an old G2x and am currently scanning around for it's successor. I'll have to wait to see what the Nexus 5 really turns out to be, I suppose. Reply
Impulses - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI'd take the smaller display and battery if it comes with a slightly better looking/feeling build (more Moto X and less Galaxy S). Reply
Paulman - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - link"<b>WOW...</b> wow.... wow, wow..." - That's literally what came out of my mouth when I first saw those battery life graphs. Amazing, LG. GG WP Reply
Paulman - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - link"Gone are the days of 1.4V to hit near-2GHz frequencies it seems, instead 8974 will hit 2.3 GHz at around 1V." - That elicited another 'Wow' from me. Reply
andykins - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThat is an insane difference. But is there some downside too? Seems a bit good to be true. Reply
Froyorkshire - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkHeat, most likely. The LG G2 seems to have it taken care of but if the Nexus 4 was any indication, the Nexus 5 needs to have a better-engineered body to handle the S800's potential heat. Reply
tuxRoller - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWhy would you have more heat when pushing less V and A? Yes, it is clocked higher and has a more powerful gpu so its tdp (or whatever) will be higher than s600 soc, but at the same clocks as the pre-800s it should use less power.
This shouldn't be a surprise since this is, apparently, the first time snapdragons have used 28nm hpm, and with new processes come inherent advantages (also problems, but heat shouldn't be one of them unless you are running it at full-tilt). Reply
theduckofdeath - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThey reduce the voltage to reduce the wattage, which is what heat is generated from. Reply
gwydionjhr - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThe side by side comparison video is very interesting. I've only have a light understanding of what I'm seeing, and if you get a chance, I'd really love to get your impressions on how each of these OIS/EIS systems perform. The one question that came to me as my eyes darted back and forth tying to compare the two videos, was that the 1020 OIS seemed to work pretty well, right up to the moment of impact on your footfall. I'm I seeing that right? Is this a result of the weight of the larger sensor in the 1020 maxing out the capabilities of the OIS when those large acceleration forces hit it? Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkAccommodation angle is the big game, and they're all also tuned differently too it seems. I'm not walking very aggressively or stomping around either, but trying to walk normally. I wanted to include the Lumia 920 as well but didn't bring it, the 925 seems to be pretty similar to what I remember the 920 being like though.
-Brian Reply
UpSpin - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkIt's funny that in my opinion the 1020 (and so also the 808) does one of the worst jobs in OIS, the 925 the best followed by the HTC One and Moto X. Between them is the rest. LG2 on par with the 1020, in some scenes worse, in some better.
In the 1020 vs. 925 comparison, at the beginning, Brian walks along a footway, the 1020 video has a very obvious and penetrant periodic shaking/reflex which does not exist in the 925 or HTC One video.
At the very beginning of the Moto X comparison we see a handrail with a building behinde it, the Moto X video is sharp and steady, the 1020 video wobbles in the z-direction
The colors in the 1020 are the most vivid ones, but in my opinion also the most over saturated and artifical ones. It does a good job in capturing the blue of the sky, but therefore darker details aren't visible on the 1020 videos. (handrail at the end of the test videos)
It's obvious that using a larger sensor a OIS is harder to implement, but I find it odd that Nokia hasn't made any use of the 41MP in video recording mode by additionally implementing an EIS.
But I found it surprising how good or even better the competition is (or how bad the 1020 in videos is), using a cheaper and less intrusive sensor. (in photos the 1020 will probably (and hopefully) remain unbeaten) Reply
Krysto - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkIt seemed to me the LG one beat the 1020 OIS slightly. The 920 one was the best though, as Brian said. But 920 had far from accurate colors. Reply
KurianOfBorg - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWhat about the suttering and lag? I used the Optimus G Pro and it stuttered and lagged everywhere. No where close to the smoothness of the Nexus 4. Reply
Brian Klug - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI find it to be really smooth, of course if you want absolute smoothness, you can just wait for 8974 in the Nexus 5 :)
-Brian Reply
htotfalitm - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkgood. I'm glad they ditched capacitive controls
I hated onscreen controls too but I've been completely sold on the idea since I tried Paranoid Android and discovered Pie Control Reply
baronmog - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI feel like a broken record: only 32GB onboard storage and no microSD? No thanks. I really, really, really, wish someone other than Samsung would get their heads out of the cloud. It's ok when you're someplace with decent, or any, wireless connectivity. Otherwise, useless. Reply
HideOut - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI want to trade off my S4 for this...but no microSD? FAIL. Reply
BabelHuber - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkExactly my thoughts!
When I see reviews at Anandtech, often my first thought is 'wow, what a nice phone!'-
Then I see that the SD-card is missing and the phone has died for me.
Samsung seems to be very smart in this area. They always have removable batteries, SD-card support and unlocked bootloaders.
And while Samsung breaks one sales record after another quarter by quarter, LG and HTC are wondering why most customers prefer their competitor's devices.
I don't think that this is coincidence. E.g. I personally like the look and feel of the HTC One, but the lacking flexibility turned me off immediately.
Android games like the Asphalt-series consume about 1.5GB meanwhile. A 16GB phone without SD-card support is a joke meanwhile.
32GB are OK, but still inferiour to an external 64GB SD-card. Once you root your device, you can set mount points to the external SD-card or - in case you are lazy like me - use an app like FolderMount to at least move the apps which are memory-hogs to the external SD.
How much can it cost to support such a feature? LG, HTC etc. are clueless and deserve their low market share with their crippled devices, really.
They should wake up and support SD-cards so we get more competition. But no, instead the champaign flows at Samsung while the managers laugh about the competition. Reply
maximumGPU - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYou're talking as if LG and HTC's low market share is attributable to lack of SD support. It has practically nothing to do with this.
You do understand that people requesting SD support are a minority that barely register in sales number? Reply
BabelHuber - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThis is what I always hear. But I do not believe this.
Why are people buying 70 Million Samsung smartphones per quarter, then? Just because 'Samsung' is printed on them?
In basically every store, HTC, Samsung, LG and Sony phones are sold. People walk in and mostly buy Samsung.
And this has nothing to do with the additional features Samsung offers for the same price? Come on! Reply
UpSpin - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkJust take a look at how much money Samsung spends on advertising, then you'll understand why the Samsung smartphones are the most sold ones.
Most people really don't care about SD-Cards, for some it's even an annoyance because you can't combine the phone storage with the SD-Card storage, so you can't use it for apps and other stuff. And it's much slower than eMMC and another part which can and will fail after extensive usage.
Thus a phone with 8GB internal + 64GB SD-Card is almost as worthless as a phone with 8GB only for the !majority of people!
The big advantage comes with storing music libraries, movie libraries, ... on the SD-Card, but there again, the majority of users does not have a 64GB music library, and barely DVD/Blu-Ray rips, they rather rely on streaming. Reply
BabelHuber - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkFirst of all, I already have posted that using the SD-card for apps is child's play after the phone has been rooted. Just root, install FoulderMount and off you go.
Then you can use the SD-card for Music, movies etc., while music probably being the major use-case for most people, as a solt of people use their phone as 'walkman' or use it as music data storage in their cars.
So simply stating that an SD-card does not give you benefits ist BS.
And yes, marketing is an explanation for higher market share. But this alone does not explain why Samsung has ten times the marketshare of its competitors.
Tomi Ahonen called the smartphone market 'Samsung, Apple and the nine dwarfes', which is correct IMO.
A lot of people walk into a store and don't have much clue. Then the sales guy shows them the phones and explains the advantages/ disadvantages.
So, if you are not much interested in the HTC One's speakers, you can also take the SGS4. It has a removable battery and an SD-card slot and costs the same.
Why take the phone with less options? It simply does not make sense - after all, if you never use the SD-card slot it does not matter because you payed no premium for it.
But simply stating that customers are too stupid to properly use SD-cards falls short when Samsung has so much success with phones equipped with such features. Reply
et20 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkNo, they are not too stupid.
You are too stupid to understand that not everyone cares about the same things as you do.
The simple fact that you are reading and commenting on this site is clear indication you are part of a tiny minority.
You are completely disconnected from the needs and interests of mass market consumers.
The sales guy you mentioned is paid by Samsung to sell more Samsung phones. Almost nobody uses SD cards. Reply
theduckofdeath - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkAlmost no one uses SD cards? Do you have any fact to base that statement on?
SD cards are not the primary reason people prefer Samsung phones, but they are definitely one of the contributing arguments when people buy phones. Clearly, vanity is not as highly rated in real life as HTC thought. People apparently prefers to spend their money of useful things, not just looks. Reply
UpSpin - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkNow you come with rooting. I'm a science student and technically interested (as it's obvious because I'm here on this site). I've rooted my smartphone and will do the same to all my future smartphones. It's a no brainer for me. A lot of my friends own an Android smartphone, too. They are in no way stupid. But none of them has a rooted device. I don't know a single one in my surrounding who rooted it. To some I explained them the beneifts, how to do it, etc. But none did it. Why? Because they had no urgent need for it and didn't want to 'waste' time doing it.
Some of the smartphones they use have a SD-Card, none of them really cared. None of them heavily uses it.
I'm sorry to burst your ignorant selfish bubble, but not everyone is like you and wants the same you do!
Samsung has the highest marketing expense of possible any company on earth. People who go in a store and want to buy a smartphone, know mostly nothing about the different flavors of smartphones, but they do know, that Samsung has some, lots of them, with nice looking features, according to the ads they see in TV/web/posters just everywhere! The sales person also probably knows the advantages of Samsung devices best, so it's no surprise that most people just buy a Samsung smartphone. The fine differences between the different smartphones are negligible for most people and few even understand them or value them.
Few know what OS they are running on, let alone the precise Android version.
The majority chose a smartphone by:
1. Price
2. Look, feel, size
3. Devices they saw from ads
4. Recommendation from friends
You aren't the smartest either, if you think that the only outstanding feature of the HTC One is the dual speakers. There's the aluminum body, OIS, magnitudes brighter display, software features and others left, which you don't care about and thus don't care about. Reply
BabelHuber - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYou are calling me stupid while you are to dense to recognize two major points I made besides rooting:
1.) People use SD-cards to store music at. I know lots of people who use their SD-cards exclusively this way without having rooted their phones.
Only an imbecile can say that it is no advantage that you can put an SD-card into your notebook, copy all movies and music you want to it, put it into your phone and use it.
You do not need much technical knowledge to do so, and in fact lots of people do exactly this. Ask them if this feature is worthless!
2.) You do not seem to understand the gap regarding sales between Samsung and any other Android phone manufacturer.
Samsung sold about 70 Million smartphones in Q2 2013, while LG, Sony, HTC, Huawei and ZTE can be glad to sell one tenth of this number!
And you say the fact that SD-card support and a removable battery play no role at all? And then you call me stupid?
Let me give you a clue: If only 5% of Samsung customers care about SD-cards, this is 3.5 Million customers per quarter. If 10% care about this, it is 7 Millions.
And you are telling me that this is a non-issue for companies which sell 5-7 Million smartphones per quarter? That they do not want or need these customers?
I really do not understand what is so hard to understand here! Reply
maximumGPU - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkAre you really saying that you single-handedly just uncovered the reason for HTC, LG, Sony and all the rest's low market share?
And here they were scratching their hair completely baffled at just why Samsung handsets were selling so much. Everyone in there market research team should be fired for failing to see that simply adding an SD card slot would immediately result in at least 3.5 million extra sales per quarter. Reply
BabelHuber - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkNo. I am saying that this is one reason - in the sense that this lacking features makes it harder for them to compete.
And yes, I think their management is stupid. Reply
blacks329 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYou honestly think 1 in 20 people care about SD cards in their phones? I suggest you do a poll of the layman and find out how many of them actually care.
Apple sells 40 million iPhones a quarter, I wonder how they can sell so many?
/psssssst it's not SD cards Reply
BabelHuber - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkWhen a company wants to compete against Apple, it makes sense to look at the strengths and weaknesses of the competitor.
Apple does not have removable batteries and SD-card slots.
So it is a cheap win to offer these features for those customers who do care. OTOH competing with Apple without having such obvious advantages is tougher. Reply
deskjob - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkHey bud, I agree with you - the SD card expansion is a valuable feature to have. If I was given the choice to have it or not, with absolutely no trade-off, then duh of course I'll want to have the feature.
But I want to share my personal experience so far - my smartphone history up to this point is the HTC Thunderbolt, Rezound and now the One. I loved having the SD card expansion. I rooted and S-off'ed both the Thunderbolt and Rezound (shorting out two contacts on my brand new Rezound in order to get S-off was a damn crazy leap of faith). And I always thought that I wouldn't get a phone without SD card expansion, ever. Period.
But then when I actually looked at my usage pattern - after the initial transfer from the Thunderbolt to Rezound, I never once took out the microSD card again for data transfer. Hell, I actually bought a 64GB card for the Rezound (I jacked the 32GB from the Thunderbolt originally), because the phone actually supported it unofficially (the card capacity didn't exist when the phone was first out!). But you know what... the 64GB card never made it into the phone. It's now in my Nikon SLR.
And dude trust me, I put that extra storage space to good use. Talking about multiple NAND backups, my music library, a movie or two, photos, Titanium app backups, the works. But that's just it - what I need, and I suspect most people need, isn't the microSD expansion per se. We need SPACE! As long as there's enough space to fit your need, who cares if it's microSD, internal, or even cloud? Okay, cloud might be iffy with security and extra power draw from data connection, not to mention data cap (not for me though, unlimited data hehe). Look at it from another perspective - if your phone came with 128GB of internal space, would you be able to do without microSD expansion?
And as you might know, the way Android handles external SD space isn't very elegant. You have to keep track of the system partition, the internal SD, and the external SD. It sounds trivial, but it's not elegant and gets more annoying as you go forward. At least for me. I honestly can't see the majority of the public dealing with this and feeling happy about it.
Marketing is everything, unfortunately. I think we've reached a point in the smartphone market where most phones are ADEQUATE. They'll do the job of calls, internet, chat, camera, etc. Marketing is the key to making people want to buy your product. Samsung is great at it. Apple is great at it. HTC and the rest, not so much.
Did you know that Samsung went as far as to hire poor college and grad students to post negative comments about competitor phones on major tech review forums and sites? Look it up - they admitted to it, and blamed it on some "rogue individuals" within the company. No... they were sorry they got caught. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYes expandable storage is so old school - apple will soon make macbooks with soldered on SSDs, cameras with only internal memory, and so on. In fact they are already doing that (rMBP's RAM is soldered and SSD is proprietary format) Reply
tuxRoller - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYou are making a point which, given our data, is impossible to prove/disprove.
They are saying, I think, that they don't believe MOST people care about having a removable sdcard. Given that iphones sell so well, I'd think that there are very large groups for which this is true (roughly a third of smartphone owners worldwide). Samsung offers removable storage, but so have the other manufacturers (like sony) yet it hasn't/isn't helping them. Reply
flyingpants1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThe people who are generally knowledgeable about phones are the ones recommending Samsung Galaxy S3/S4 to their friends. Partially because of the extra features like removable/customizable battery and storage. These features always get a mention in reviews also. You're a fool if you think they're not a factor in Samsung's success.
Right now in my S4 I have the capability to add a 64gb microsd card purely for movies and TV shows and crap like that. That would cost me $50, whereas an additional device like an iPod touch would cost me a lot more. I'd rather just turn my phone into my iPod, but I just CANNOT do that if I have to constantly worry about my onboard space.
All flagship phones going forward should be 32gb+. Reply
rocketbuddha - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkDude!
a) How many HTC phones have you owned?
b) Do you know how many software updates HTC does for its "premium" phones in its life cycle?
c) Have you seen the quality of the software releases for 1-2 yr old phones? Battery life/random restarts etc.... Reply
Arbie - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI agree with BabelHuber. No micro/SD = no sale. Talk all you want about how "most of us are streaming from the cloud" or "internal memory is lots faster" - but that means nothing to me. I *DO* want to watch and listen to media and I *DO* want to move it on and off the device quickly. Like when I grab the thing for a trip. Micro/SD lets me do this and works GREAT. You stream; I'll snap.
Micro/SD is worth $$ to me. Conversely, I'm not going to spend $$$$ on a device like this without it. As Babel says: why take the phone with less options? It simply does not make sense. Reply
hughlle - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkYet people happily take the iphone with less options time and time again. apple market their harware properly, and the lack of options becomes irrelevant.
The lack of an SD card will certainly cause a loss of sales from a certain market, but it is a minimal loss of sales in the grand scheme of things. Rather like imagining the loss of sales from people who won't buy this phone because it's not available in pink. It's a non-event.
As has been said, the majority of people care about total space, not removable storage. you can not put an accurate number on the ratio, but to try and argue it is otherwise is silly. The majority want to be able to take photos, record videos, dowload music and shows, not root around in their handbag or pocket or draw for the correct SD card that has their scrubs episodes on it. Average joe wants simplicity. they want to be able to press the screen and access their content. Not start swapping cards in and out. Reply
Impulses - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYes, the power of branding is incredible. The words Samsung and Galaxy are pounded into the social consciousness to the point that they're now synonymous with Android (like Moto/VZW's Droid campaign early on). It's a very very strong effect. Reply
Impulses - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI don't think sporting removable media and batteries is even amongst the top three reasons why Samsung outsells everyone... I think to imply so seems a bit near sighted. Samsung started dominating long before most manufacturers moved to sealed batteries etc, you can trace their upward track pretty closely to how much more they invested in branding with each successive generation (much to the carrier's chagrin, if it were up to them we'd still have five different Galaxy variations every year).
Personally I could care less for removable media and batteries, but I do appreciate and applaud the fact that Samsung still offers that choice... I think it's one of the advantages of the Android ecosystem. I don't think the majority of the market cares about this tho. Reply
Spunjji - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkAs someone who'd be moving from a Note 2 with 16GB internal and 64GB Micro SD, I think I'd actually appreciate the smaller unified space. It'd be a bit more of a pinch, but the fact is that after several re-formats and changes of software I'm getting sick to the back teeth of different builds treating my SD card differently (no exFAT support in CM10 is a real killer) and having to re-create links from my in-built storage to the external for apps like Google Play Music.
The fact is that external removable storage is a pig to set up and maintain. It could work so much better than it does, but Google don't want to maintain it and I think the point where it's worth letting go has now arrived. Reply
[-Stash-] - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - linkNo exFAT in CM10 is a pain, I'll agree, but since you root your phone anyway, just bung this on, it means you can even read/write to NTFS formatted storage (SD Cards, USB HDDs):
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.c... Reply
bill5 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThis seemingly would be the phone to get if I needed one right now. Nice battery life.
However my upgrade isnt for almost a year, like a lot of people I suspect, I upgraded right when SGS3 came out.
That means I wont be due for another upgrade til SGS5 hits, and I'm guessing it will trump this phone, naturally. Such is the life of everybody trying to fight samsung... Reply
Impulses - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI've got an EVO LTE but I'm on a similar boat, furthermore, this is the first tine in three years where I'm just not in a hurry to upgrade. Going to dual cores and 1GB of RAM was huge (EVO to EVO 3D), going from qHD to 720p and a much thinner device last year was also huge (not to mention ICS/JB)... Right now there's no hugely compelling hardware/software reason urging me to upgrade tho. I still might if this comes out as a Nexus 5 for $350 tho... Reply
RollingCamel - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWhat about the audio codecs LG claimed support for? Did you try FLAC on it? Reply
maglito - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkFLAC has native support on every 4.X android device. Reply
shackanaw - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkHe's referring to the 24-bit/192khz support and other improvements mentioned in the G2 hands on: http://www.anandtech.com/show/7205/hands-on-with-t...
"LG has made audio in the line-out sense a priority for the G2. We've seen a lot of emphasis from other OEMs on speaker quality and stereo sound, with the G2 LG has put time into rewriting part of the ALSA stack and Android framework to support higher sampling and bit depth. The inability of the Android platform to support different sampling rates for different applications remains a big limitation for OEMs, one LG wrote around, and with the G2 up to 24 bit 192 kHz FLAC/WAV playback is supported in the stock player, and LG says it will make an API available for other apps to take advantage of this higher definition audio support to foster a better 24-bit ecosystem on Android.
"I asked about what codec the G2 uses, and it turns out this is the latest Qualcomm WCD part, which I believe is WCD9320 for the MSM8974 platform. LG says that although the previous WCD9310 device had limitations, the WCD9320 platform offers considerably better audio performance and quality that enables them to expose these higher quality modes and get good output. The entire audio chain (software, hardware codec, and headphone amplifier) have been optimized for good quality and support for these higher bit depths, I'm told. I didn't get a chance to listen to line out audio, but hopefully in testing this emphasis will play itself out." Reply
tuxRoller - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - link24bit playback is a gimmick since even the studio equipment, apparently, doesn't handle the full 24bit. Aside from that, you just don't need that much sample accuracy unless you're superman.
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Reply
ssj3gohan - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWhy are the iPhone raw triangle/fill rate tests so much better than any other phone, yet does it perform middle of the pack in gfxbench and such? I was under the impression that they basically had the best graphics solution around, paired with awesomely optimized software. Reply
et20 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkApparently they didn't optimize for gfxbench. Reply
UpSpin - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThe meaningless synthetic benchmarks always favored iOS. The reason many people think that iPhones are magnitudes more powerful than Android devices.
The only meaningful benchmarks are normal 3D scenes.
I don't understand why Anandtech still posts those meaningless benchmarks. Or can you read something out of them? NO! They are in no way a measurement for performance. They are basically useless. That's the reason we don't see them on desktop GPU comparisons. Reply
tuxRoller - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThey give you a good idea of the device's capabilities in specific areas. Useful for doing a deep dive to determine what the make-up of the device is.
For realworld use, you are absolutely right, and, imho, such synthetics only belong in articles where there are new components (like this one), but for the next snapdragon-800, I don't think those particular benchmarks need be run.. Reply
Krysto - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkSunspider also seems pretty pointless at this point. Kraken and Octane seem to give more accurate results in terms of chip performance. Reply
ijozic - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWould love to see some audio quality tests and a comment on the volume levels (maybe in the full review?) as LG usually goes below average in this area.. Reply
Impulses - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkSeconded Reply
BoneAT - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkIt's interesting that the G2 either slightly over-exposes most situations, or the dynamic range is tighter than on the S4 Octa's Exmor RS and or the Lumia 1020, this applies to photos and videos alike. Otherwise I'm highly impressed with the camera performance, very natural, even slightly under-saturated results like the S4 Octa (which in the 808 comparison shows that it's everybody else over-saturating), I'd only set half a step lower exposition correction and let everything else done by the device.
Brian, what is the maximum exposure time you could get automatically or manually off a single shot? What is the highest ISO value? Reply
Jon Tseng - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkHmmm. So looks like trade off vs Nexus 5 (2300mah) will be great battery life vs OS updates. Tough one!
On rear buttons I'm cool w that -used to have atrix w rear power button/fingerprint and no probs at all w day to day use. Reply
andykins - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkDon't forget the biggest difference (imo): price. The Nexus 5 should be around half the price. Reply
Alketi - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThis actually bodes *very* well for the Nexus 5, as it also packs a Snapdragon 800 chipset.
It's not too much of a stretch to expect better battery life than the Nexus 4, which was already decent. Plus, there's a good chance of an upside surprise, if it also packs the panel self-refresh and gets gains from Android 4.4. Reply
Spunjji - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkOne thing worth bearing in mind is that even with ~75% of the battery capacity the G2 would still have class-leading battery life. So, the Nexus 5 is hardly going to stink in that regard! Reply
Krysto - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkGreat to see those battery efficiency improvements from Qualcomm. You'd following the right path here, Qualcomm. Please don't change.
Nvidia is stupid for following the "pure performance" path. That strategy has lost them most customers, especially since they followed that strategy to the point where they were making only "tablet chips", which is code-word for "our chips aren't efficient enough for smartphones".
I've said it before, chip makers should think about making "smartphone chips" first and foremost, and THEN, use the same chips, maybe with a little extra clock speed in tablets, too. If think think about making "tablet chips", they will blow it, because they will make the chip too inefficient and won't be able to "downscale" as easily to put it in smartphones.
So yeah, Qualcomm please continue doing your own thing. If Nvidia, Samsung and others keep following the "performance/benchmark" path, then the joke is on them, and will ultimately fail (as they have so far, and it's most devices are using Qualcomm's chips). I do hope they wake up to it sooner rather than later though, because I don't want Qualcomm to become another monopolistic Intel. Reply
UpSpin - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkQualcomm is the only Android SoC producer which does design their own cores and does not rely on ARM finished CPU designs.
If you take a close look, you'll see that the Tegra 4 and the Exyons 5 are the only A15 processors at the moment, and it probably took much longer for ARM to release them and for NVIDIA and Samsung to finalize them than expected. They also had no other option than A15 to get some improvement over A9 and to remain competive with future Qualcomm SoCs.
Qualcomm on the other hand was able to release minor updates the whole time, so processors between A9 and A15.
Samsung will do the same next year, so expect some larger competition to Qualcomm.
Qualcomm also has the big radio advantage, which NVIDIA adressed with the i500 and which might make them competive to Qualcomm next year again.
Neither Samsung nor NVIDIA followed a performance strategy only. They had no other choice than using A15, and Tegra, as always used their 4+1, Samsung had to use big.LITTLE to make A15 usable in a smartphone. But big.LITTLE wasn't fully ready yet, so they had no other choice than using an octa-core setup.
And also remember that MIPS (a competive contender to ARM, but so far mostly used in low end applications) got bought up by Imagination Technologies, which I strongly believe will try everything they can to push MIPS in the high end sector.
So I think it's safe to assume that there won't be a monopoly, Qualcomm just had a big advantage for one year because of the A9 to A15 gap and by offering integrated radios. Both Samsung and NVIDIA learned from this, and a new competitior to ARM is coming up, too.
So it will get really interesting. Reply
Impulses - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkThat one year advantage in design turned into two solid years of device wins for Qualcomm tho... It's gonna get interesting next year for sure. Reply
Krysto - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkCortex A9 was great efficiency wise, and better perf/Watt than what Qualcomm had available at the time (S3 Scorpion), but Nvidia still blew it with Tegra 3. So no, that's not the only reason. Nvidia can do certain things like moving to smaller node or keeping the clock speed low of the GPU's, but adding more GPU cores, and so on, to increase efficiency and performance/Watt. But they aren't doing any of that. Reply
UpSpin - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkYou mean they could and should have released more iterations of Tegra 3 and adding more and more GPUs to improve at least the graphics performance than waiting for A15 and Tegra 4.
I never designed a SoC myself :-D so I don't know how hard it is but I did lots of PCB which is practically the same except on a much larger scale :-D If you add some parts you have to increase the die size, thus move other parts on the die around, reroute the stuff etc. So it's still a lot of work. The main bottleneck of Tegra 3 is memory bandwidth. So adding more GPU cores without adressing the memory bandwidth would not have made any sense most probably.
They probably expected to ship Tegra 4 SoCs sooner, thus they saw no need in releasing a totally improved Tegra 3 and focused on Tegra 4.
And if you compare Tegra 4 to Tegra 3, then they did exactly what you wanted, moving to a smaller node, increasing the number of GPU cores, moving to A15 while maintaining the power efficient companion core, increasing bandwidth, ... Reply
ESC2000 - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI wonder whether it is more expensive to pay to license ARM's A9, A15, etc (thought they were doing an A12 as well?) or to develop it yourself like Qualcomm does. Obviously QCOM isn't starting from scratch every time, but R&D adds up fast.
This isn't a perfect analogy at all but it makes me think of the difference between being a pharmaceutical company that develops your own products and one that makes generic versions of products someone else has already developed once the patent expires. Of course now in the US many companies that technically make their own products from scratch really just take a compound already invented and tweak it a little bit (isolate the one useful isomer, make the chiral version, etc), knowing that it is likely their modified version will be safe and effective just as the existing drug hopefully is. They still get their patent, which they can extend through various manipulations like testing in new populations right before the patent expires, but the R&D costs are much lower. Consumers therefore get many similar versions of drugs that rely on one mechanism of action (see all the SSRIs) and few other choices if that mechanism does not work for them. Not sure how I got off into that but it is something I care about and now maybe some Anandtech readers will know haha. Reply
krumme - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkGreat story mate :), i like it. Reply
balraj - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkMy first comment on Anandtech
The review was cool...I'm impressed by g2 battery life n camera...
Wish Anandtech can have a UI section
Also can you ppl confirm if lg will support g2 with Atleast 2 yrs of software update
That's gonna be deciding factor in choosing between g2 or nexus 5 for most of us !!!!!!! Reply
Impulses - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkAbsolutely nobody can guarantee that, even if an LG exec came out and said so there's no guarantee they wouldn't change their mind or a carrier wouldn't delay/block an update... If updates are that important to you, then get a Nexus, end of story. Reply
adityasingh - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - link@Brian could you verify whether the LG G2 uses Snapdragon 800 MSM8974 or MSM8974AB?
The "AB" version clocks the CPU at 2.3Ghz, while the standard version tops out at 2.2Ghz.. However you noted in your review that the GPU is clocked at 450Mhz.. If I recall correctly, the "AB" version runs the GPU at 550Mhz.. while the standard is 450Mhz
So in this case the CPU points to one bin.. but the GPU points to another.. Can you please confirm?
Nice "Mini Review" otherwise.. Am looking forward to the full review soon.. Please include the throttling analysis like the one from the MotoX. It would be nice to see how the long the clocks stay at 2.3Ghz :) Reply
Krysto - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkHe did mention it's the first. no the latter. Reply
neoraiden - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkBrian could you comment on how the lumia 1020 compares to a cheap ($150-200) camera as I was impressed by the difference in colour for the video comparison even if ois wasn't the best.
I currently have a note 2 but the camera quality in low light conditions is just too bad, also the inability to move apps to my memory card has been annoying. I have an upgrade coming up in January I think, but I might try to change phone before. I was wondering whether you could comment on whether the lumia 1020 is worth the jump from android due to picture quality or will an htc one or nexus 5 (if similar to the g2) suffice? I was considering the note 3 as I like everything else but it still doesn't have ois or would the note 3 with a cheap compact be better even given the inconvenience of having to bring a camera?
The main day to day use of my phone is news apps, Internet, email some threaded (which I hear is a problem for windows phone). Reply
abrahavt - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI would wait to see what camera nexus 5 would have. Alternative is to get the Sony QX 100 and you would get great pictures irrespective of the phone Reply
neoraiden - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI was considering the qx100 but the price is out of my range as I don't take enough photographs to spend that much, am considering the qx10 though at that price point I wonder if a canon 240hs would suffice. Reply
Arnulf - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - link"Gone are the days of 1.4V to hit near-2GHz frequencies it seems, instead 8974 will hit 2.3 GHz at around 1V"
About fuggin time - my 2006 vintage 65 nm Core2 runs at 2.13 GHz at less than 1.1V. I was under the impression that smaller lithography process allows for lower voltages so they should have been well under 0.9V for 2 GHz by now. Reply
Drumsticks - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYou are comparing two different companies' completely different CPUs, ARM vs x86 too. My 4670k will do 4ghz stable on a volt. The nature of smartphone SoCs vs full CPUs is very different Reply
madmilk - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYour Core 2 also consumes 10 watts idling, despite the use of high-k dielectrics that TSMC only recently started using. HP trades off leakage for high clock speeds and low voltages. Reply
FwFred - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkYou are comparing a platform with 3 discrete chips instead of one, and way more high voltage IO interfaces. Try a modern x86 SoC: Haswell ULT, Bay Trail, or Clover trail for a more fair comparison for idle power.
His point was top clock speed vs. voltage. A completely different topic. Reply
Krysto - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkFrom what I've read, it's becoming very hard to use the same litography process at smaller nodes, and they need to move to a new litography technology (ultraviolet litography, I think), but that's years away from being ready, too, and might not be until 14nm or even 10nm. Reply
unipidity - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI would just like to comment that articles like this are one of the reasons Anandtech will continue to get my traffic long into the future. Brian's "mini-review" is head and shoulders above any "full" review I come across on most tech review sites. Anandtech is never ever first to print, at least on phones, but when it comes to properly informing my purchasing decisions, nothing comes else comes close. Keep up the good work. Reply
Impulses - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - link+1000 Reply
UltraWide - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkWhy are the comparison devices different throughout the tests?
This inconsistency makes it hard to compare the G2 to another device. Reply
nerd1 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkFunny fact is the domestic version of G2 supports both microSD and switchable battery (albeit slight smaller). Obviously US customers are too tamed to apple devices and they won't need such features. Reply
Doh! - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkYup, my brother just bought this phone in Korea. It has both the microSD slot (upto 64 GB) and a replaceable battery (2610 mAh). Reply
UpSpin - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkor in the US are some expensive license fees for SD-Cards (HALA, https://www.sdcard.org/developers/licensing/) and stupid patents on removable batteries, which are less in other regions or non-existent at all. Reply
skiboysteve - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkwow the EIS is surprisingly good! Better than OIS for some. However I won't buy a new device without OIS... The non blurry photos without having to be perfectly still is amazing Reply
greywolf0 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkTherThere's something wrong with your OIS test for the Lumia 1020. It is way too jittery. Reply
Novulux - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI am about ready for a new phone, and frankly, I'm having a hard time deciding between the LG G2, Xperia Z1, and the Xiaomi MI3. :O Reply
abrahavt - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkI am in the same boat. Waiting for the Nexus 5 before deciding. Reply
PC Perv - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkI am usually critical of AT's smartphone coverage but for this one I have nothing much to fault for. Thank you for thorough review. oh and I don't think 3D Mark is a legitimate benchmark. I think AT can do away with it. Reply
wanderer000 - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkHoly crap, the image stabilization on the Moto X is amazing......Just wish it had the image quality of the Lumia 1020 :/ Reply
madwolfa - Saturday, September 07, 2013 - linkGLBenchmark has always favored Apple devices heavily. I don't understand why is it still included in the tests? Reply
Spunjji - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkIf that bias also reflects developer bias then it's relevant. Reply
Impulses - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkIn addition to some of the headphone jack and audio performance someone asked about, a note on speakerphone volume would be nice. I don't think the review even mentioned where it's located (though I'm guessing it's on the bottom edge from the pics I remember glancing at, I wish there wasn't so much click thru required to browse those on mobile btw). Reply
Gondalf - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkYes this is a mini review but the battery life benches are pointless. Obviously with a 3Ah battery the Web Browsing result and talk time are very good, considering that the soc is mostly idle or at low clock speeds. No mention about battery life under gaming or other serious usages...this is a pity because the worst defect of these superphones is the very low battery life under stress.
I think that Anandtech must to discover the bad side of a device, not only show the points in favor. I have the suspect LG has made an agreement with this web site.
Anyway a so power hungry Soc in a phone is a nonsense that can give many reliability issues to the customers.
Bad review this time, so sorry Reply
Krysto - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThat's a good point. I guess the only one that comes close to "real world usage" is the browsing one. Even the video one is not that accurate since it will mainly use the GPU or video accelerator, and you're not going to do video on your phone all the time anyway. Reply
tuxRoller - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - linkYeah, AT clearly has taken the monies from LG to promote their products.
From know on it's going to be 24/7 LG! Reply
coachingjoy - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkWith a desktop I would think a 2560x1440 display would be warranted.
It makes a desktop worthwhile.
I mean, why not use a phone/notebook/laptop instead? Reply
coachingjoy - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkha, my bad. wrong thread. Reply
Krysto - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkShocking how good Moto X's EIS was. I wonder if they're using the same stabilization algorithms as the ones Youtube implemented a while ago. It does seem to be about as amazing as that one.
Lumia 1020 was definitely the worst. It was jittery through and through.
The order from best to worst was like this
#1 Moto X (virtually perfect)
#2 Lumia 925 (quite smooth, but with some "movements")
#3 HTC One (a little more of those "movements")
#4 LG G2 (not bad, but jittery from time to time)
#5 Galaxy S4 (meh, pretty bad, its EIS doesn't help much)
#6 Lumia 1020 (terrible, almost as if it had no stabilization) Reply
AbbyYen - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkis it because MOTO X use dual core 320 so it fare so well compare to 330? Reply
ArmedandDangerous - Sunday, September 08, 2013 - linkThe HTC One with the newer HBOOT 1.54 has QuickCharge enabled, so it's very much faster than it was at launch now :) Reply
Davidjan - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkStill does not it support OTG? Don't know why it disables power supply for OTG in some module of smartphone like Nexus 4, LG G. If it enable power supply, then can easily extend storage with this mini reader: http://goo.gl/U6IyY Reply
maglito - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkBrian, any plans to test mkv file format playback compatibility in a future full review? Reply
Darryl Lim - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkI have been an avid reader of Anandtech for a few years. There's one thing I don't like about your Android smartphone coverage this year... and it's that the Sony Xperia line is missing.
Please give some attention to Sony Xperia 2013 smartphones. Their lineup this year has been strong. They have TWO Snapdragon 800 devices out now. The Xperia Z1 alone is worthy of an article. Thanks. Reply
SanX - Monday, September 09, 2013 - linkBrian, how easy was to extract the battery ? Reply
xnay - Saturday, September 14, 2013 - linkWhat surprises me is why LG can't shoot full-res photos during video recording? It definitely has the horsepower. Reply
LordSegan - Sunday, September 15, 2013 - linkI just bought an LG G2 this afternoon. So far I absolutely love it. I played with the Galaxy Note 2, the Galaxy S4, and the HTC One. All were great devices, but I ultimately canceled my preorder of the Note 3 (it's just too big, and the stylus really isn't that crucial), and went with the G2.
Coming from an iPhone 4S, the speed improvement is decent, and the overall increase in capability is stunning. The ability to have multiple windows open and to resize them like on a desktop is amazing and insanely useful. Reply
murat - Sunday, September 15, 2013 - linkThe only difference I have experienced on my G2 is that is takes 4 hours to charge. I wonder if I should exchange it? Reply
jacobdrj - Monday, September 23, 2013 - linkThe most important part of this phone is that the rear buttons makes this phone ambidextrous... or more importantly, lefty friendly... That is a big deal for us southpaws... Reply
flyingpants1 - Thursday, September 26, 2013 - linkWhat is your malfunction that you can't use a normal Android phone with your left hand? Reply
mr aries - Tuesday, July 07, 2015 - linkI m using 3 amp charger for my lg d802 ..can it harmfull for my lg g2 plzz help Reply
mr aries - Tuesday, July 07, 2015 - linkI m using 3 amp charger for my lg d802 ..can it harmfull for my lg g2 plzz help Reply