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Intel On the Offensive: Roadmap Details and Analysisby Kristopher Kubicki & Jarred Walton on 6/14/2005 4:33 PM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
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cssmicro - Friday, July 22, 2005 - link50 - I don't think you realize how cost-inneffective it is to create a completely new process flow or sort flow just to turn off a feature. Creating a different chip costs many hundreds of thousands of dollars PER LAYER that's changed. The mask changes alone would cost about half of a million dollars per reticle. Forget about the engineering initiative necessary to design the changes. It would be retarded of Intel to make a move like that. 45 hit the nail right on the head. The same products will be made, and then filtered out by working/non-working parts at end of line sorting.
You don't really think your graphics / non-graphics chipsets are MADE differently, do you? (PSST, they're not). Simply put, they're all tested at the end of production. Some have working graphics sub-systems, some don't. They're distributed accordingly. Reply
cornflake - Monday, June 20, 2005 - linkI'm not sure how much Intel paid AnandTech for this article, but it must be a grundle to shovel it like this...
"As a dual core solution, Yonah is the most advanced (other than perhaps Itanium 2 Monticeto) solution that we have seen out of either AMD or Intel."
Wow, so they have some cool new integrated memory controller in place to leap frog AMD. NO, well then what about the new Intel branded Hyper-transport knock off they are working on? Oh well, at least we can look forward to some big Intel adds on AnandTech in the coming months!
Perhaps when AnandTech talks about how advanced a platform is, they should wait until they can compare the performance with others as they did recently in their article...
AMD is a full generation ahead in technology and a generation behind in fluff.
Icehawk - Friday, June 17, 2005 - linkWhat matters is how fast Corporates embrace 64-bit outside the Enterprise app level (since most are still mainframe or at least Unix based). Generally technology and software updates are slow to rollout due to costs, contracts, stability, etc. If, somehow, 64-bit was to become part of the mainstream corporate app profile - THEN it will matter if Intel has a 64-bit mobile (laptop) processor.
I would add at least one year past when Longhorn finally debuts before you see a major shift towards 64-bit. Until then it won't be a big deal IMO. Reply
apriest - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkDual Dempsey's sounds intriguing... and dang expensive I'll wager... Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - link52:
Add 1 for EM64T support on 5xx and 3xx CPUs.
Add 2 for VT support on 6xx CPUs.
Add 3 for 65nm 6xx CPUs that overlap 90nm parts (and have VT).
Otherwise, it's basically higher numbers within the same family gives better performance/features. It's a way to de-emphasize MHz/GHz, since we may be plateauing on clock speeds for a while. Intel spent so long convincing people to upgrade PCs for an extra 400 MHz that they now need to change tactics. Smart marketing, really. Reply
cryptonomicon - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkfor the love of god, can someone explain INTELs not so new naming scheme? I cant make 1 bit of sense from it, it just leaves me mystified.
I mean come on!! at least with AMD we knew the 3000+ meant somewhat-roughly-equivalent to a pentium of 3000mhz. gah! Reply
PrinceGaz - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkAnother point with Yonah is that it is intended to be a low-power consuming Mobile design, not desktop. Most laptop users have no need of a faster CPU but do want longer battery life / smaller lighter battery etc.
Given that the whole design of the Pentium M chips (Banias -> Dothan -> Yonah) is about saving power by artificially limiting the maximum intended clock speed, it makes sense for Intel to make Yonah no faster than Dothan so that they can further reduce the power consumption of the processor at any given speed compared to what it would draw if the design could reach, say 2.5GHz.
It doesn't seem at all surprising to me that Yonah will be little or no higher clocked than Dothan as there is little demand for the extra speed but plenty of demand for reduced power consumption. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - link45 - Possibly, but as we indicated in the article, it's just a guess. As I understand it, Vanderpool (VT) isn't adding a lot to the die size - actually, it's been present since the Prescott 2M/Irwindale cores, but deactivated. I'm more inclined to believe that Intel is just trying to separate the market: charge more for VT enabled chips, as they will go to server/workstation systems which tend to cost more.
Regarding clock speed, while it's true that clockspeed isn't everything, we're essentially looking at a process shrink that isn't improving the top speed of CPUs at all. Yonah is pretty much Dothan (maybe) with dual cores. Banias topped out at 1.7 GHz, Dothan topped out at 2.26 (or will in a while), and Yonah is launching at 2.13 GHz max. It's surprising, that's all.
While MHz/GHz are not everything, the basic fact remains that similar architectures running at the same clock speed will perform similarly. Dothan 2.13 GHz will match a single core Yonah 2.13 GHz barring any drastic changes to the underlying architecture. Merom is the next major change in the underlying architecture, so we'll have a CPU that may be as much as 50% faster at the same clock speed.
Taking a more pragmatic look at the CPU environment, it's sort of interesting that the fastest (official) Northwood cores were 3.4 GHz and Prescott with 90nm and a longer pipeline only bumped that up 400 MHz. Willamette topped out at 2.4 GHz, so the 180nm to 130nm transition increased top CPU spped by 1000 MHz - 42% instead of only 12%!
Think AMD's done much better? The fastest 130nm chips from AMD were the FX-55 (2.6 GHz) and right now it doesn't look like they'll release anything above 2.8 GHz with 90nm SOI! Even if we throw out the FX-55 (which is a bit of a special case, since it's the only 130nm AMD chip with strained silicon), AMD still only went up 400 MHz with the transition - 17%.
The best we saw out of AMD/Intel for the transition to 90nm was a 33% speed bump from Banias to Dothan, but it sounds like that was also accompanies by a slightly longer pipeline.
If we got as much as a 50% speed increase going from 180nm to 130nm, and only a 33% going from 130nm to 90nm (even with adding copper, SOI, and strained silicon), what will 65nm bring? A maximum of a 20% speed increase for the same design? Maybe even less? Time will tell, but I find it an interesting trend to say the least! Reply
piroroadkill - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkYonah was the only thing worth looking at. This is certainly no 'offensive' by Intel. Reply
Pandaren - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkPeople keep shouting about 64-bits, but 64-bits won't make a difference to the vast majority of users. Most of the people I know who use computers surf the web, write email, print pictures, and other very basic tasks. In the corporate space, the transition to 64-bit will be glacial. The place I'm working at has used Windows 2000 for almost four years now and has no plans to change. They aren't the only ones:
The only ones 64-bit will make a difference to are the very small percentage of people who actually need it, and the fanbois who buy the biggest for the sake of having the biggest.
segagenesis - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkAlthough it still sounds vague in explanation, if VT tech lets you run two *different* operating systems at the *same time*, similar to using VMWare in full screen mode... that would be pretty nice.
The savings of having to buy extra hardware (or VMWare itself) for another OS without dual booting would help those on a budget. Reply
Shintai - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - link#42
A geforce 6600GT runs at 500Mhz GPU..a 7800GTX runs at 430Mhz..does the 7800GTX suck compared to the 6600GT?
Sometimes you just don´t need huge CPU power, but you need low powerusage for either batterytime and/or how compact you can make it.
The 1.06Ghz Yonah most likely uses a few watts only. And with few we are talking a low single digit number. Or the same as having 30 1.06Ghz for 1 2.4Ghz AMDx2. Or having 45 1.06Ghz instead of 1 3.2Ghz P4D. Reply
Araemo - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - link"All of the Cedar Mill cores clearly have VT support (as do the Prescott 2M cores), so why Intel would want to deactivate it in one model is anyone's guess."
Intel is expecting noticeable issues getting high yields out of the VT portions of the silicon, or at least are expecting a noticeable failure rate(30% or so higher than the average failure rate for the rest of the chip?), so they are planning something to do with all the chips that fail VT qualification, but pass everything else.
(At least, that's my guess.) Reply
sgtroyer - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkyour wording in paragraph 4 is a little wierd:
"Presler will in fact be nothing but two Cedar Mill cores sharing the same core, just as Smithfield is only two Prescotts sharing the same core."
Wouldn't it make more sense to say Presler is two Cedar Mill cores sharing the same *die* or sharing the same package? Two cores sharing the same core doesn't make any sense. Reply
Viditor - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkEug - "But it doesn't HAVE to be 2006. If it's out by 2007 for laptops that's fine"
Fair enough...but remember that the important factor here is the PERCEPTION of release.
By that I mean that the imminent release of 64 bit apps would be a big deterrent (IMHO) to anyone thinking of buying a Yonah based laptop next year. If true, then Yonah would be the only chip unable to run the apps. Software in 2006 will most likely be both 32 and 64 bit...but if people believe that any of the apps they use will be released in 2007 as a 64 bit only, then they have to accept that their new laptop will only have a 1 year lifespan (something that businesses would probably avoid, and they buy the most laptops).
This is especially true as AMD should have a very competitive product (both in power and low power usage) that is already 64 bit and will probably cost a few dollars less... Reply
blwest - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkOk. 1.06ghz... that was soooo 5 years ago. Reply
Eug - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkI disagree. 64-bit on laptops can be important, if only because it allows you to do 64-bit development and testing on a laptop.
But it doesn't HAVE to be 2006. If it's out by 2007 for laptops that's fine. By that time both Windows Longhorn and OS X 10.5 Leopard should be out, perfect timing for Merom. Reply
mino - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkViditor:
I wasn't completely sure(maybe next Yamhill:).
That's it. For now 64bits on mobile doesn't make sense(except *nix). Howerever in '06 it's gone be pretty much a mainstream feature on desktop(not to mention server).
Also in the big picture this makes sense since it will put SOME(just on niche markets) pressure on AMD with minimal resources amd will also limit P-M into low-power space so it will not interferewith next-ge chips.
But here come BIG BUT! it seams that only single possible serious contender in performance race from intel camp is out of the game!
So it seems AMD has free ground to play for another at least 1.5yrs ! (That makes it 3.5 in total!!!). Anyway i like smart moves by AMD this is NOT gona be GOOD FOR US. (customers)
little sorry for my screams, not slept for too long ;) Reply
Viditor - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkmino - no, Yonah will not be 64bit (as Shintai explained)...but I disagree that it will not be important. For software in 2006, it won't be important but for software in 2007 it will be (IMHO).
There you have 2 differing OPINIONS...we shall see! :-) Reply
Shintai - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - link#37
No..and it´s not really important. Meron(mobile) and Conroe(desktop/server) will be 64bit and with characteristics of pentium M. They are an 8th genration core tho. And not based on the 6th(p-M) or 7th(p4) Reply
mino - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkONE IMPORTANT QUESTION:
(mostly to autor)
WILL YONAH BE 64-bit ????
please tell us.
every glimpse appreciated;) Reply
mino - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkMy "typing" is becomming even funnier sometimes, unfortunatelly ;) Reply
mino - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkFinally intel execs came to their senses. people should applaud them all at once! They are evidently going to get rid of those super-trooper power drainers they are producing for last 2 yrs.
BTW you all seeing performance parity arise just remember tah if AMD needs it even wouldn't need K9 to compete with Merom(unless it will be some miracle chip). They could yust release quad-core server chips plus some 3.2-3.4 desktop K8+ dualies and be done with it !
It's becomming so funny that first chips able to really axploit potential of DDR2(666+),technology som much tooted and pushed by Intel, will be 65nm X2's.
Ironic, isn't it? Reply
Zebo - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkMerom Merom Merom Kris! is the only thing Intel has I'm waiting for since I dont use notebooks. Does'nt quite sound as nice does it.:P
I just can't see the extra cache doing much for the 9xx series, much like the 6xx did'nt do squat.. So the only thing that remains to be seen and potentially exciting is power draw and overclockabilty of the 65nm desktop chips. Reply
Calin - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkBut on a much more serious note, I think VT would be good if it would work with very little or no OS support. I remember horror stories with Windows and Linux partitions, and I really don't want to find out how much Windows on VT can destabilize the rest of operating systems running on virtual partitions Reply
Calin - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkExecutive series of mainboards probably have air conditioned as standard Reply
Shintai - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkHmm..I think people have too high expertations after the few last years of gigahurtz.
I think 65nm will give us affordable AMD64 X2s maybe a speedbump to 5000 and 5200. But I think it will be more focused on quad cores, cheaper manufactoring and lower power consumption.
P4 65nm. I think we might see the 4Ghz now. But else the same thing as with AMD, cheaper dualcores, lower power usage.
Yonah is abit different, size the manufactoring cost of Yonah wont increase that much compared to a P4/X2 dualcore. But yonah sports SSE3, some 20-30% faster speed at the same frequency. So Yonah will be desktop and server attractive. More than Dothan is now. Plus it keeps its low powerusage. Also a speedbump is likely here.
But remember people, building an X2 or P4D is alot more expensive than a singlecore. So 65nm is not the "Yiiihah" speedbumpage. But more like the 1100$ AMD 4800 X2 down to 3-500$ thing.
So I wouldn´t really expect much other than more cores and alittle tweak here and there until K9 and Meron/Conroe. Reply
Furen - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkIf I ran two operating systems at once, I'd basically idle on one while working on the other one. So my overhead for running to OSes would mostly be memory. It'd be like dualbooting without the booting, you just switch your active OS whenever you wish to. It'd be great for those of us who prefer *nix OSes but NEED windows for specific tasks *cough*games*cough*.
The problem, of course, will end up being how much additional software will be needed to do this (not to mention how much it will cost ^^), I'm guessing it wont be just installing both OSes and then booting them. Reply
dotdotperiod - Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - linkSeriously why are you guys concerned about clock speed, as everyone has reported clock speed does not equate to a significant increase in performance. BTW who in the hell needs to run four operating systems at once?? I mean it reallY?? Glad to see intel in finally going to stop making two of the same chipset and giving them different names. I almost fell asleep looking at all the different cpu's seems like the same stuff just a different day. I dont run a multi billion dollar company but Intel should seriously simplify and stop getting there teeth kicked in by AMD. Reply
Eug - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkI'm surprised that so many people are complaining about the 2.16 GHz Yonah when it's dual-core and so low power. It's only about 35 Watts people. Reply
porkster - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkI'll be upgrading to the P4-633 then. Yeah it's strange thye are even going to both with the 6x2 series unless they want to make a tier of products, but that sucks.
. Reply
Furen - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkWell put.
DRM, at least in the beginning, will be an enabling technology. The problem is not the technology itself but rather the ability to ENFORCE license agreements it gives content providers.
I personally dont think everyone following license agreements is the problem, but rather the fact that the content providers will be able to achieve THEIR aims using MY hardware. This will, in turn, make it easier for content providers to force users into insane license agreements, like being able to play a song only on a single pc, for example (at least, that's what my limited understanding of DRM--and trusted computing as a whole--leads me to believe). Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkOne thing we probably should have pointed out is that this roadmap ends right before the time when we should start seeing the Conroe/Merom CPU cores show up (2H'06). Part of that is probably because not even Intel known what they'll call those processors, but I think that's the biggest event currently on the Intel CPU horizon. :) Reply
KristopherKubicki - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkPrinceGaz: Two things; "just about every tech site" was really ONE website that understood something poorly, reported on it, and then about 30 other websites reporting the same thing or reclarifying the original statement. DTCP is surprisingly similar to HDCP in many ways but mainly differs in the fact that it only works for DTCP-ready content. How much DTCP content are you viewing right now that you need to worry about whether or not it will hamper your multimedia experience? I'm kinda approaching this like a scenario for Macrovision without DVDs.
OK point 2; it can be disabled. The first reaction many people claim is "oh it can be disabled, it's only a matter of time before you cannot!". Maybe. On the other hand, if you want IPTV without any DRM you might want to start your own broadcast studio.
I don't like unnecissary DRM as much as the next person, but I do want to watch four different angles of the Yankees @ 1080p over FIOS. Maybe I'll write something exploring some of the non-knee jerk details of DTCP.
tfranzese - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkA 2.5 GHz Yonah with all the trimmings and some of the poor performing areas addressed might impress me.
None of this stuff in their roadmap does however. Reply
PrinceGaz - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkVT is interesting and has major advantages over using something like VMWare which only implements partial hardware support for a host OS. Of course the vast majority of people, even most AT readers, are unlikely to use it seriously.
Personally I'm far more interested/concerned about the progress of Intel's LaGrande and AMD's Presidio security (aka hardware DRM) in forthcoming chips. Why is it that this topic seems to be completely ignored by AT articles when it is potentially the most important aspect of new processors, given the implications it has on who will really control our computer (assuming you are foolish enough to install the DRM-riddled Longhorn when it is released)?
Just about every other tech site has reported about the recent Pentium D DRM story in depth (both the initial story, and the follow up with their analysis of what that really meant), but it hasn't had a single mention on AT. Reply
AlexWade - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkAnd to think, if it wasn't for AMD's competition, we would still be using Pentium 1 at 100 MHz. Reply
HSuke - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkI agree. 2.5+ GHz Yonahs with SSE3 would be nice. Reply
Doormat - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkYea I'm really disappointed in Yonah performance. I fully expected to see 2.5GHz Yonahs by Q1 2006. Reply
KayKay - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkI like the Intel Chipset/Processor names, thats about it, as it is doubtful I will buy a desktop Intel CPU ever again Reply
Reflex - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkVT/Pacifica is a niche technology, that much is for certain. It will definatly help the server segment(imagine 4 'machine' clusters that are all running on the same hardware) and some enthusiasts may like it(although I bet most won't use it often to maximize performance), but its not going to take the world by storm or anything.
As for Yonah and power savings, remember that the entire platform must be compared to comparable AMD solutions, not just the CPU. AMD builds most northbridge functions(memory controller being the obvious one) into thier CPU which saves a considerable amount of power, and allows single chip chipset solutions like nForce to be practical. Measuring power consumption of just the CPU's without the supporting platform is apples to oranges. Reply
StriderGT - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkAnd in order to be 100% precise :-) Dual OS natively is brought to x86 for the first time through these two technologies. The current solutions require emulation/software layer and thus exhibit higher overheads.
The problem though lies in the fact that even dual cores under the same OS can not cope with heavy multitasking (eg two heavy applications) without a significant perf. penalty for both. So as correctly pointed in this site, its another thing to increase heavy multitasking performance and another to actually use those scenarios since the hit will be noticeable. The same logic applies even more exaggerated in the case of two OSes and their apps running concurrently... (and by that I do not mean Solitaire XP together with Opera for Linux; this is something even Vanderpool can do :-) Reply
StriderGT - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - link#14 I totally agree with you, but that does not change the fact that VT/Pacifica is a niche feature at best (admins, testers etc) Reply
KristopherKubicki - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkStriderGT: Well dual OSes can be done right now with overhead; thats what VMware, UML and such are for. Part of the goal is to minimize overhead. VT nor Pacifica are limited to dual core CPUs by the way.
Kristopher Reply
StriderGT - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkI do not think that anyone besides administrators would need VT, let alone use such a thing. DualBoot seems bulky but its way faster and more robust. A real usage scenario would require you to boot in XP to play games reboot in Linux to surf or whatever, otherwise two OSes running together will impose a real overhead. So you only gain the few mins or secs between each boot and lose performacewise. Its more like look what dual cores can do feature than what most peole will do... Reply
cscpianoman - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkInteresting, but I would like to have a chart of AMD to the side. Is this coming tomorrow?
Of all the chips Yonah looks the most promising and yet as I was glancing through it would be confined to certain applications. The energy requirements are stellar! I would love to see how AMD is going to compete. Reply
KristopherKubicki - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkStriderGT: Actually I think VT is pretty neat. I run Linux on one machine and Windows for work. Putting both on the same computer would be really awesome.
Kristopher Reply
StriderGT - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkhope so 2 #9 :-) because otherwise we will stick to "virtualized" performance gains... Can u say Vanderpooled?!? A real show stopper for desktop users!
BTW I forgot to give a thumbs up to intel engineers for their latest innovation. The dual core superglue.
PS I think that marketing dep of intel devoured their last real engineers long ago. So now they meet apple and we get platformization en extremis... I love this buzzzzzzzzzzwordzzzzzzzz Reply
flatblastard - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkSure hope AMD has their floatation devices handy. Reply
KristopherKubicki - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkKensei: Ooops - fixed.
Kristopher Reply
StriderGT - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkInstead of this really pathetic roadmap they can just throw in the towel in technology terms...
The real roadmap reads:
1. Price cuts and Price undercuts till AMD suffocates...
2. Marketing Nonsense Flooding (even rivers?!?) aka Vanderpool, EMT64=AMD 64bit etc etc
3. Company bullying. Either u stick with us or we send the Borg 4s to heat u to death...
4. They've got the furniture company 2. Apple anybody? Reply
phaxmohdem - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkSorry to be a total dimwit, but what the hell is VT Technology? is it something like NX Bit? Reply
Kensei - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkNice article Kris. I have one comment in the grammar department. The following sentence fragment at the end of the article "... four core Yonah blades would certainly peak out attention." Should be "... four core Yonah blades would certainly pique our attention." Reply
michaelpatrick33 - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkThis seems underwhelming other than Yonah for some reason. Only one speedbump for dualcore by Q1 '06? AMD seems to have the server space to themselves for 6-8 more months on dualcore. That could cause problems for Intel and marketshare/perception. AMD had 28% of the 4P server shipments in Q1 according to IDC. L=http://www.xbitlabs.com Reply
Questar - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkHeh, a dual core cpu dissipating 15w of heat? Awsome. Reply
flatblastard - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkWow, Intel's roadmaps continue to bore me. I don't know why, they just do I guess. Reply
Eug - Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - linkGimme my 13.3" widescreen 1152x768 Yonah PowerBook! Reply


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Silence is Golden: Silent GPU Roundupby Josh Venning on 8/31/2006 5:50 AM EST
- Posted in
- GPUs
49 Comments
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TheInternal - Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - linkIt's wonderful to see Anandtech take the time to review silent products. I've really been trying to quiet down my PC, and seeing this review gave me some further encouragement. With rumors of ASUS acquiring XFX, it will be interesting to see if Anandtech decides to review the passively colled XFX 7950 GT with heat pipes that look awfully reminescent of the ones from the ASUS 7800 you reviewed.
I'm also curious to see if any 7900 GS cards become available with passive cooling soon. Reply
Richey02hg - Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - linkI was just curious if any of these cards are AGP? or they all PCI Express only? and also, its hard to tell since an x800xt all in one wonder isnt in there. But would any of these be an upgrade over that? Because I have to admit, just seeing that word "silent" makes me happy cause my GPU is insanely loud Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - linkAll are PCIe. I'm not sure if there are any silent AGP cards out there other than very low end components. As for the X800 XT, that is roughly equivalent to the 7800 GS in performance, albeit without SM 3.0 support. 7600 GT would also be pretty similar in performance I think. I would recommend holding onto your current system as long as you can, and when he can no longer stand the performance it offers do a wholesale upgrade to PCI-E GPU and motherboard, and probably a new CPU and RAM is well. At that point, you might as well just go ahead and buy a completely new system -- you could even try selling off your current system to recoup some of the cost. Reply
Richey02hg - Thursday, September 07, 2006 - linkthanks for the advice, Im actually planning to get a laptop in 2006 and thanks to your review im definetly waiting for that second wave (forget the name) of the core 2 duos for laptops :) Reply
Eddie Lin - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkGigabyte seems don't need reserve SLI bridge seems 7300GS only go with S/W SLI and don't need bridge. Is really good heatsink design on this card Reply
DerekWilson - Friday, September 01, 2006 - linkThanks Eddie --
We have added this information to the article. Reply
yacoub - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkIt's an absolute joke that Asus and Gigabyte don't have silently-cooled 7900GTs out yet. The card requires less power and runs cooler than the 7800GT did. It's a shoe-in to get a silent version. wtf.
This is practically a roundup of grandfathers and retirees when you include a 7800GT. ;P Reply
nullpointerus - Friday, September 01, 2006 - linkMaybe they are trying to get rid of old cards without dropping the price too much? Reply
yyrkoon - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkAlot of people that would consider buying a fanless GPU wouldnt even care if it DID make tons of noise, some of us live in deserts, where its extremely dusty. There is nothing like owning an air compressor or two, just for 'dusting' you house, shops, and PC / electronics innards.
I guess I'm one of the few people who actually enjoy having a fan or two on while I'm sleeping for background noise, but less moving parts means longer part life here in the Nevada desert. However, I own a eVGA 7600GT KO, that has a fan on it, and you know what, I have a really hard time hearing it from 6 feet away. In fact, the 120mm low RPM fans that came with my Lian Li case make more noise, and they dont make much noise themselves.
I think its a great idea that these manufactuers are making products like this, but at the same time, for me personally its not really an option. I only buy parts from a compnay with a good reputation, and offer excellent customer support, and hence I'm very picky about who I buy from. At the same time, I know what I want, and if something passive isnt availible on say a 7600GT (which is what I wanted for this current system), and at the same time, from a company I would normally buy parts from, then I wont bother. I would think it a better option to buy the part you wanted for a video card, then buy an aftermarket passive cooler if it comes down to that (which would probably void your warranty, so again, for some of us, not really an option).
So basicly, what it boils down to, is that I have to buy a graphics card with a fan to get what I want, and if problems later ensue, its a good thing I have a can of miracle oil around, and a few saringes . . . Reply
Josh Venning - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkThese are some good points; it's true that with less moving parts you would theoretically see longer life and resistence to dust and dirt, something that could be a plus. And while it's true that a normal graphics card (with a fan on it) will be pretty hard to hear from a little ways away inside your computer case, the idea is that some people need that extra bit of silence for whatever reason, and every extra fan adds to the noise level on the system. For myself, when recording sound/music with a computer, getting things as quiet as possible is very important, so this is one case where eliminating even a couple of dbs is worth buying a silent gpu for. (especially if, like myself, your recording computer is one you also want to be able to play games on.) Reply
Josh Venning - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkI also forgot to mention that some people use their pcs in home theater systems as well. This would be another case when you want as little noise from your computer as possible. Reply
imaheadcase - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkThat was not always the case, my 9700 Pro i still use when fan went out a year ago, works like a charm without it on. It was in its time the high end card, lets hope those days come buy again :D Reply
eckre - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkWhat a great review, when tom did their silent VC review, they included a grand total of three cards...pfft. nice job anand.
I have the 7600GT, very sweet and 0dB is oh so nice. Reply
Josh Venning - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkWe just wanted to say thanks all for your comments and we are still trying to make sure we've caught any errors. (there are actually only 20 cards in the roundup and not 21) As Derek said, these cards were included in the article because we requested any and all silent cards that any of the manufacturers were willing to give us to review. That's also why we have more cards from ASUS and Gigabyte than the others. Reply
Olaf van der Spek - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - link
If a general purpose CPU can offer a 40% improvement over its predecessor (Pentium D) while consuming 40% less power on average, why can't a GPU revolution accomplish the same thing?
Because the videocard industry hasn't introduced such a bad design as the netburst architecture. Reply
epsilonparadox - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkNo they've introduced worse. When they recommend a second PS just for grafx or even a 1Kw single PS, they've taken intel's lack of thermal control to a whole new level. Reply
DerekWilson - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkgraphics cards use much much less power in 2d mode than in 3d mode -- and even their 3d power saving capabilities are really good.
this is especially true when you consider the ammount of processing power a GPU delivers compared to a CPU.
Theoretical peak performance of a current desktop CPU is in the 10-15 GFLOPS range at best. For a GPU, theoretical peak performance is at least one order of magnitude larger reaching up over 200 GFLOPS in high end cases.
I'm not saying we can reach these theoretical peak rates on either a CPU or a GPU, but a GPU is doing much much more work under load than a CPU possibly could.
Keep in mind we aren't even up to GHz on GPU cores. On the CPU front, Intel just shortened the pipeline and decreased clock speeds to save power -- doing more work in one cycle. This is absolutely what a GPU does.
And the icing on the cake is the sheer options on the silent GPU front. Neither AMD nor Intel make a fast desktop CPU that can be (easily) passively cooled. These parts are a testiment to the efficiency of the GPU.
On the flip side, ATI and NVIDIA push their high end parts way up in clock speed and power consumption trying as hard as possible to gain the performance crown.
There are plenty of reasons GPUs draw more power than a CPU under load, but a lack of thermal control or inefficient desing is not one of them. It's about die size, transistor count, and total ammount of work being done. Reply
JarredWalton - Saturday, September 02, 2006 - linkI disagree with Derek, at least in some regards. The budget and midrange GPUs generally do a good job at throttling down power requirements in 2D mode. The high-end parts fail miserably in my experience. Sure, they consume a lot less power than they do in 3D mode, but all you have to do is look at the difference between using a Radeon Mobility X1400 and a GeForce Go 7800 in the Dell laptops to http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=276...">see the difference in battery life.
In 2D mode, graphics chips still consume a ton of power relatively speaking -- probably a lot of that going to the memory as well. A lot of this can be blamed on transistor counts and die size, but I certainly think that NVIDIA and ATI could reduce power more. The problem right now is that power use is a secondary consideration, and ATI and NVIDIA both need to have a paradigm shift similar to what Intel had with the Pentium M. If they could put a lot of resources into designing a fast but much less power-hungry GPU, I'm sure they could cut power draw quite a bit in both idle and load situations.
That's really the crux of the problem though: resources. Neither company has anywhere near the resources that AMD has, let alone the resources that Intel has. Process technology is at least a year behind Intel if not more, chip layouts are mostly computer generated as opposed to being tweaked manually (I think), and none of the companies have really started at square one trying to create a power efficient design; that always seems to be tacked on after-the-fact.
GPUs definitely do a lot of work, although GFLOPS is a terrible measure performance. The highly parallel nature of 3D rendering does allow you to scale performance very easily, but power requirements also scale almost linearly with performance when using the same architecture. It would be nice to see some balance between performance scaling and power requirements... I am gravely concerned about what Windows Vista is going to do for battery life on laptops, at least if you enable the Aero Glass interface. Faster switching to low-power states (for both memory and GPU) ought to be high on the list for next-generation GPUs. Reply
DaveLessnau - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkI'm wondering why Anandtech tested Asus' EN7800 GT card instead of their EN7600 GT. That card would be more in line with Gigabyte's 7600 GT version and, I believe, is more available than the 7800 version. In the near future, I'd like to buy one of these silent 7600GTs and was hoping this review would help. Oh, well. Reply
DerekWilson - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkyou can get a really good idea of how it would perform by looking at Gigabyte's card.
as I mentioned elsewhere in the comments, we requested all the silent cards manufacturers could provide. if we don't have it, it is likely because they were unable to get us the card in time for inclusion in this review. Reply
Leo V - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - link...I can buy a high-end 7800GT substantially cheaper, buy a quiet Zalman 80mm low-rpm GPU cooler and run it undervolted at 7V. (In fact, I have done exactly that.) It will be cheaper, run WAY cooler, and be quieter, because I can get rid of a case fan that I would need with a "silent" card anyway.
The idea of running a 50-100watt GPU with a silent cooler is dubious -- you still need a fan somewhere in your system, and the best place is closest to the hottest parts. Those parts are naturally the CPU and GPU.
Instead of "silent" (but not really) high-end cards, give us cards with heatpipes + large, slow quiet fans that can be undervolted.
Most importantly, ATI and NVIDIA please stop making 100watt monsters and follow Intel's and AMD's lead in improving power efficiency. Reply
yyrkoon - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkSorry, I cant say I would agree that a fan would be quieter than a passive solution, I dont care if you could run it at 1V, and did :) Reply
Leo V - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - link
...I can buy a high-end 7800GT substantially cheaper
e.g. substantially cheaper than the holy grail "silent" version of the 7800GT.
And Kudos to the companies for the inventive products and to Anandtech for covering them. Reply
hkBst - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkI've been waiting for a review of the passively cooled 7900GT from MSI for a while and I was expecting it to be in here. How can it not be?
Look here: http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/vga/vga/pro...">http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/vga/vga/pro... Reply
DerekWilson - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkWe sent multiple requests for cards out to 16 different graphics card manufacturers. I'd say we did pretty well with more than half of those responding.
We also requested that each manufacturer send us all their passively cooled cards. If something was left out it was either because the manufacturer decided not to send it, or we weren't able to get ahold of it before our submission deadline. We tested a lot of cards and have been working on this for quite some time, so silent cards that have come out recently or were not widely available until recently will not have been included. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkAlso, the MSI 7900GT Silent card is only available in Europe, and we did mention this in the review. Reply
haris - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkAny chance you could retest the cards using a mid range system. It seems kind of silly to test an FX-55 with a $50-100 video card. Reply
nullpointerus - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkYet Another Silly Performance Retest Request (YAMPRR)
Testing an FX-55 with a $50-100 video card is not silly; testing graphics cards' performance relative to each other requires removing all other factors including the CPU and RAM. Not everyone has a "mid-range" system, and those who do not have a "mid-range" system do not want the results skewed just to make your life easier. If you want specific performance advice for your particular system and games, why do you not join and post in the forums? Reply
ss284 - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkWell considering the majority of people who are looking for midrange graphics cards have a midrange system, his request is a perfectly good one. Unless Anandtech enjoys targeting the minority of its readers it should be doing more applicable performance testing. Then again, the FX-55 isnt exactly a cutting edge processor anymore. Just scale everything back 10% and you will have a rough estimate of what performance would be like on a mid range system. Reply
nullpointerus - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkYet Another Defense of a YAMPRR (YADY). *yawn*
Well considering the majority of people who are looking for midrange graphics cards have a midrange system, his request is a perfectly good one.
No, it's a silly one. The point of the article is to compare graphics cards, not to make life easier for a certain group of people. People who follow this esoteric stuff religiously tend to distill the information into a more practical form. And as I said, the information he wanted is readily available in the forums. A couple of mouse clicks and a bit of typing is better than ignorantly saying the video card article is silly for not providing framerates similar to some mythical ideal of a mid-range system.
Unless Anandtech enjoys targeting the minority of its readers it should be doing more applicable performance testing.
How about you go where the information is normally provided instead of trying to turn all the front page articles into your personal system upgrade newsfeeds?
Could we just skip ahead to where everyone chimes in with their own ideas of what a mid-range system is. Does it use AMD or Intel? Single or multi-core? How much RAM? Which timings? Which system boards? Which components are overclocked?
I'll make a deal with you: get together a mid-range system that everyone will agree on, and then I will agree with you that we should conflate graphics cards testing with mid-range system testing. You see, ridding the comments section of silly YAMPRR and YADY posts will not benefit anyone if we still have to deal with all the senseless bickering about little details such as chipset revisions, features, and all the other inane griping I have seen posted when Anandtech picks out a CPU, overclocking, or RAM configuration as representative of X-range systems. Reply
yyrkoon - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkIf its silly, why even bother replying . . . No need to go out of your way to be a jerk. Reply
nullpointerus - Friday, September 01, 2006 - linkJerks don't take the time to apologize. As for why I apologized, I felt badly for responding in kind. I was belittling people who felt the need to belittle the site without taking the trouble to think their arguments through. Apparently that put some kind of chip on your shoulder such that you felt the need to attack me after I'd already apologized. Reply
DerekWilson - Friday, September 01, 2006 - linkmaybe we can take a different angle as the standard reasoning has been rolled out already ...
if we decide to test with a system that "matches" the graphics card, we are making a decision about what is reasonable for either a specific level of performance or price point. By making such a decision, we limit ourselves -- for instance, in this review we may have chosen a system to match a 7600 GS. But maybe it's too under powered for a 7600 GT, or perhaps its too overpriced for a 7300 GS.
we absolutely can't test every card with every processor and every memory configuration on every chipset for every review.
en lieu of choosing one system that is supposed to be a "one size fits all", we can remove the system from consideration by choosing the highest end configuration possible.
when a graphics card peforms better in our system, we know it is capable of better performance in any system. this is true in almost every case.
this does put a burden on the reader to understand the limitations of his or her own system -- i.e., will the fact that the 7600 GT performs higher than 7600 GS expose a CPU limitation on the system the reader is building/upgrading.
this question can be answered in a couple ways.
with game tests, if you can borrow a high end graphics card and see where the cpu limitation falls at something like 800x600 without aa and af, you'll know where the upper limit on framerate is based on the CPU. thus a decision can be made about the best fit for a card.
if you can't borrow a higher end card, you can turn all the graphics settings down as far as possible and run at 640x480 or lower if possible (does anything aside from the chronicles of riddick still support 320x240?). this isn't ideal, but even on a low end card you can get a pretty good idea of whether or not there will be a cpu limitation entering into the mix.
when you know what the cpu limit of your system is, pick the resolution you want to run, and find a card that gives you a number just over this limit. this card is the ideal fit for your system at your resolution. it will deliver the performance your cpu will ask for.
I know its complicated, but its much better than the can of worms we'd open if we went in another direction.
In GPU reviews meant to demonstrate the capabilities of a graphics card, we will not add unnecessary bottlenecks to the system. Reply
nullpointerus - Friday, September 01, 2006 - linkYou need a form letter, or something. Maybe you could put up a short page entitled Why We Test this Way and link to it on the front page of each article. Reply
nullpointerus - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkHmm...that last paragraph came out a little too harsh. I apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. I still think the points are valid, though. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkIf you look at the performance difference between an E6400 stock and 3.0 GHz OC in our http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=28...">PC Club system review, you will see that it makes virtually no difference in performance even with a 7900 GT. All of these GPUs are the bottleneck in gaming, but we use a higher-end (relatively speaking) CPU just to make sure. Reply
imaheadcase - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkI disagree 800x600 is great for sniping, i play on a 9700 Pro and normally switch between 800x600 and 1024x768 and like 800x600 better on large maps. It brings the objects "bigger" to me and lets me get better accuracy.
Even if i had a 7900GT i would prob not go higher than 1024x768. Don't know why people play at higher rez, makes everything so tiny. Squinting to play a game is annoying and distracting from gameplay :D Reply
Josh7289 - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkPeople who have larger monitors have to use higher resolutions to keep things from getting too large, and to make good use of all that real estate, especially when it's an LCD (native resolution).
For example, a 17" CRT is best run at 1024 x 768 for games, while a 21" or so LCD is best run at 1600 x 1200 or 1680 x 1050, depending on its native resolution. Reply
Olaf van der Spek - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkWhat do you mean with 'too large'?
In games it's not like in Windows where objects get smaller if you increase the resolution. Reply
DerekWilson - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkthis is correct (except with user interfaces for some reason -- and there the exception is warcraft 3). thanks Olaf.
lower resolution will give you much less accuracy -- larger pixels in the same screen area decrease detail.
the extreme example is if you have a 4x3 grid and you need to snipe someone -- his head has to be in the center of one of the 12 blocks you have to aim through to even be able to hit him. The smaller these blocks are, the more pixels fit into the head, the more capable you will be of sniping. Reply
imaheadcase - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkI guess to each his own, i play bf2 on a 19inch CRT monitor at 1024x768. But even if i had a better card i would still prefer lower rez. Reply
DerekWilson - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkit's an issue of how games work on the inside ...
all the objects, shapes, characters, and landscapes are there no matter how you see them. everything is mathematically represented in the software. rendered onto your display is a viewport into the world. this viewport only allows you to see a fixed grid of colors. the color of each pixel is determined by a bunch of factors, but the largest contribution is made by the object that projects onto a particular pixel.
... on second thought, this is too hard for me to explain with out a lot of math. lets look at it another way.
when there's a naked person on tv, they decrease the resolution of the area over the persons naughty bits. this makes it harder to see what's really there because there is a smaller number of large pixels that can only represent one color each. it follows, then, that it would also be harder to shoot the person acurately in said bits.
I think your preference may be based on your experience with performance at higher resolutions. Responsiveness is necessary for a quality experience in games like bf2. If you get a faster card, I would encourage you to at least try a higher resolution.
blckgrffn - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkWhen it is in stock at newegg, its ~$90, not nearly $140.
Nat Reply
mostlyprudent - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkI would be interested to know how much noise (quantitatively) an actively cooled 7600GS or 7600GT contributes to a system built in a relatively quiet case like an Antec P150. I am familiar with some of the leaf blowers attached to the higher end cards, but wonder how much overall system noise savings you'ld get in the mid-range cards. Reply
wilburpan - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkOne obvious use for silent video cards would be in an HTPC system, where quiet performance would be a priority. Can't have those noisy computer fans intrude on watching Snakes on a Plane, you know. :@) Anyway, it would have been nice to include some video playback benchmarks to see how these cards can handle playing back a 1080p HDTV signal, or similiar tests. Reply
ViRGE - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkSince HDTV is MPEG2, any modern video card should be able to handle a 1080P signal(since this is an either/or case, it either can or can't). The limitations come in to H.264, where the video decode engine may not be clocked high enough to do higher resolution decoding. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's any 1080 commerical/usable content that would work with Cyberlink/Intervideo's H.264 decoders(the only ones with GPU acceleration), since Quicktime content doesn't work in those. Reply
DerekWilson - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkwith nvidia, the video decode engine is clocked off the core -- it actually will run better on a card with fewer pipelines and a higher core speed ... iow, the 7600gt is a better video decode graphics card than a 7900gt at default clock speeds.
a little counter intuitive, but there it is.
nvidia 7 series parts with a core clock of >450 MHz should have no problem accelerating 1080p decode on players that support purevideo. Reply
MontagGG - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkWhich of these have HDCP? Reply
DerekWilson - Thursday, August 31, 2006 - linkto my knowledge, none of the cards tested here support hdcp. but I will certainly try to confirm this ... Reply


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Fractal Design Define XL R2 Case Review: Maybe We Can Have It All?by Dustin Sklavos on 2/20/2013 12:01 PM EST
- Posted in
- Cases/Cooling/PSUs
- quiet
- Fractal Design
46 Comments
Back to Article
ymrtech - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI have the first version of the XL and I love it.
Gigantic, but quiet as hell when combined with aftermarket 120mm GPU (x2) fans and a Noctua nd-h14.
My fans never increase in speeds, even under load, and the temperatures are always low. Reply
reemrevnivek - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkYou wrote:
> Unfortunately, installing a full size hard drive into the top slot
> of the cage will result in it scraping against the bottoms of the
> plastic pegs that allow for the rotatable cage mounts.
I just got this case (and agree with most all of the review) but this wasn't a problem I encountered. I installed a WD Caviar Blue 1TB hard drive and had no such troubles. I slipped the drive sled out, turned the mounting screws in securely, and slid it back in. Turning down the mounting screws caused just a bit of compression on the rubber grommets, but not enough to allow the drive to interfere and break off a plastic peg. The spec sheet for your Deskstar drive says it's the same height (26.1mm/1.028") as the WD drive, which is pretty standard.
With these two data points, I am suspicious that the pegs were somehow moved in your removal and re-installation of the drive cages, and this is one of . Could you check this? I'll make measurements of the clearances on my case when I get home tonight for comparison. Reply
arthur449 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI encountered this problem recently with WD Red 3TB drives and a Fractal Design Arc Midi. Care had to be taken when inserting 3.5" drives into the cage or the screws of the drive above would scrape the top of the drive below. Reply
arthur449 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkApologies for the double reply, but it should be stated that I had the same issue with Samsung F4s, WD Greens, and ancient Seagate 7200.11s. I screwed the mounting screws in as tight as they would go, causing your noted compression on the rubber grommets, but it still didn't give me the clearance needed to insert a drive beneath another without manually lifting the drive in the tray above when inserting the drive beneath. Reply
rrohbeck - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkStupid question, but did you use the right screws? I never had that problem mounting 9 drives in my Define XL. Reply
arthur449 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkIt's entirely possible that the Arc Midi has less space between the drive trays than the Define XL, but I'm glad to see at least someone else is having clearance issues with 3.5" drives and Fractal Design cases.
I only mounted seven 3.5" drives in the Arc Midi, but I double and triple checked that the screw placement and grommets were properly attached to the trays and that the screws were threaded as far into the drives as they would go (however, the threads of the included wafer head screws stopped well shy of the depth available in the HDD housing.)
Perhaps this is simply an issue with the screws provided with the case. Reply
reemrevnivek - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThe threads of the wafer head screws were able to go completely into my three assorted drives. They've got 0.2" of thread and a 0.2" shank. The drives all have at least 0.25" of thread depth, and the wafer head screws seat at the shank, which slides through the bushing providing vibration isolation. Do you have threads exposed when there's a bushing on the shank? Reply
reemrevnivek - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkOK, the promised measurements:
- Sled metal + paint thickness: 0.030"
- Height of grommet + sled metal + screw head*: 0.247"
- Delta between fingertight mount screws and torqued down hard: 0.021" (reduces above height to 0.226)
Maximum drive thicknesses:
- Hitachi HDT721075 SLA 360: 0.993"
- Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 750 GB: 1.017"
- Western Digital Caviar Blue WD10EALX: 1.011"
Drive + sled thickness:
- Hitachi HDT721075 SLA 360: 1.227"
- Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 750 GB: 1.248"
- Western Digital Caviar Blue WD10EALX: 1.233"
*These aren't precisely 0.021 + drive height, but I didn't do a thorough statistical sampling of each corner of each drive...it's close.
And the most important measurements:
- Inter-sled spacing: 1.254", +/- 0.02" over all 8 drive sleds
- Grommet to plastic spacer (top hard drive max height): 1.017"
It looks like I was simply lucky to have a set of drives and cages that fit well. My original comment was posted from work based on recollection of yesterday's assembly. As an electrical engineer with a little bit of mechanical design experience, the tolerance levels I see here aren't sufficient for a sheet metal manufacturing process, especially when you add painting/powder-coating variance into the mix.
Looks like this is a tiny manufacturing oversight by Fractal Design, it was manufactured to use 1" high drives (they're not all precisely 1", 26.1mm is fairly common) and 0.25" thick grommets and wafer head screws, requiring 1.25" of spacing between sleds. This really needs to include some extra spacing for manufacturing errors, clearance fitting for easy assembly, and air flow here wouldn't hurt drive temps either.
(PS: "and this is one of ." was supposed to be "and this is one of the things I didn't do." in the previous comment. I have now installed and removed the cages, and unless the whole cage was bent in your extraction (unlikely), it seems impossible to change the thickness.) Reply
Vatharian - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThat was nice review, but I'm sorry, it lacks something: What's the point of testing mediocre (in terms of noise output and required/generated airflow) system in such big case? It is valid of course, as it gives reference point, but it's not so useful without a comparison. And that would be fitting at least full ATX, or yet better EATX (to test clearances for cable management in cases that support it (it's easy to route cables if you're putting mini-ITX board in CosmosS, like I did some time ago), with a couple or trio of loud (470 or 5850? FX-5950XT :D). Old 920-equipped X58 or some AM3 130W-140W Phenom I/II with three 470s or 5850, couple of 7.2k rpm drives and stock intel/AMD cooler, as a noise dampening torture test, and then a reasonable system (what was tested here is quite good), that's what should be done with every case. Purpose: It will give idea how good the case is in range of systems (interpolation, yo!), and when choosing a case, we get wider array of features we can compare. What's the cheapest case out there? Which is the quietest case? Which one is best for effectively cooling my high-end hardware? Which has the most useful-to-me feature-rich case, or with highest build quality? And, my favorite: What's the cheapest (with acceptable aesthetics, as per taste) case that will quietly house my hardware? That's why two sets of hardware should be included in case tests. Reply
Sabresiberian - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI agree; a huge case like this isn't really for the guy who builds a standard rig, it's for the person intending to fill it with a large MB loaded with graphics cards. At least one of the cards known to be rather noisy would be a better test here.
And, I still want to know if the case will actually hold an XL-ATX comfortably, if it claims to be able to. You don't need to run the whole test with a board you can't fit in smaller cases, just put a couple of screws in it to see if it actually fits in, and if you have to do something like move the PSU from a bottom to top mount.
I don't want to make this sound too negative - Anandtech does a great job with case reviews! These are just suggestions for ways to improve a bit. :) Reply
arthur449 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkA useful review is one that compares an item against another using metrics that are important to the readers. Without a standard set of system components used in every review for every case in the comparison, a review turns into just another "I bought it, it works, I like it" write-up that other hardware sites like to pass off as "reviews."
A solution to this could be Anandtech developing and using heating elements configured to produce similar amounts of heat and noise in similar locations to a standard ATX / mATX system. Then these elements could be adjusted to produce standard levels of heat output (65/77/95W) enthusiast heat output (130W/150W) and overclocked (200W+).
Multiples of these heating elements could be placed in the larger cases to simulate high heat GPUs and determine exactly how much thermal capacity a given case has for such a scenario.
But... custom fabrication, testing, and implementation of equipment such as this would be very spendy initially and the payoff questionable and unnecessary if the products in question fall into the disposable income category for your readership. Reply
tim851 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkThe metrics have to be relevant, though.
It's reasonable to assume people are not buying big towers because they need to fill their empty rooms, but because they have components that require a big case.
And you can't tell me that one of the - if not THE - premier tech sites on the web is not able to get three different sizes of mainboards to their case reviewer and a bunch of toasty GPUs to Trip-SLI. They can go on eBay and buy an ageing Nehalem CPU and a set of GTX 285s for all I care.
Testing this monster of a case with 3 HDDs, an mATX board and a little 560 makes no sense, because the only valid conclusion can be that it is too big. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkThe problem at this point is that if I switch up to a full ATX board now, it destroys the comparative data I've accumulated over the past year. I've been working on a third, "full fat" level using this board, but ironically the board's second PCIe x16 slot isn't working and so I can't bump up testing parameters until I've sorted that out. Reply
Skolde - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkYour case reviews are outstanding minus one thing:
You should really consider using an ATX sized motherboard when reviewing full sized cases. I've noticed on previous reviews the habit of using small motherboards in larger cases, and it really doesn't give me a good feel for its target component size.
ATX, Micro-ATX and mini-ITX boards should be used according to the size of the case being reviewed. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkAgreed. I've said this on other case reviews. Changing the size of the mobo but keeping the same chipset shouldn't affect any of the tests. There's really no reason not to. Unless you're buying a mimi-ATX case or smaller you are probably using a Full ATX motherboard, or larger. I stay with ATX for the expansion slots. Currently still running an old Nvidia 650 SLI chipset, but it has a USB 3.0 controller and SATA 6GBPS ports because of the expansion slots available in the motherboard. That computer is nearing it's end of life but with the SSD in it the CPU is actually the slowest part. Still run everything I do great and I have no intention of upgrading until it can't. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkLots of people have been saying this over and over in every review like this at this site. I agree, it makes little sense to test the case with a small motherboard that most of us would never in a million years put in this case.
But the reviewers are obstinate. They want you to be able to compare the reference system from a microATX case to a ATX XL case and see what the benchmarks say is the best case.
For better or worse. Reply
tim851 - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI hate that methodology.
People aren't choosing between mATX and XL-ATX.
Car reviewers figured that out a long time ago. No sense pitting a Corvette against an Escalade and a Ford Fusion. Nobody will decide between these based on trunk size or fuel economy.
There are fringe cases out there for sure, but the vast majority buys cases based on what they can do with them. In the case of a full towers that's stuffing it full of chips.
If you have an mATX board, you get an mATX case. Chances are you bought it for the size or the prize.
Either way, you ain't considering the Fractal Define XL R2... Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkThe reason I made this call and stand by it:
What do you lose by going with an mATX board over a standard ATX board? Reply
haplo602 - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkIt's not ATX vs mATX. This is an XL-ATX/E-ATX capable case, so some people will lose PCI-E slots and some even a CPU socket (my case) which is show stopper.
There are plenty of cases that can fit an mATX board. It's the other end of the spectrum that's starved. Reply
tim851 - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkAsk yourself this: why is anybody choosing a full tower? An mATX board, single GPU and three hard disks fit into a Silverstone TJ08. Do you think there are people undecided between a TJ08 and a Define XL waiting for a comparative review? Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkI'm working on putting together an SLI configuration for this testbed, but you guys really don't understand just how small an organization AT is. It's not like I can snap my fingers and just make hardware magically appear, and I handle a *lot* of reviews.
Could I get a trio of GTX 285s? Probably. But then people would complain that I'm using outdated hardware, or that the cards being scrunched together doesn't somehow demonstrate how the case might handle cards that are properly separated by a slot or two slots.
Of course I could just be frustrated because I've spent two nights now trying to get the testbed motherboard to actually recognize two cards in SLI with no success, trying to somehow appease an audience that is oftentimes unhappy no matter what I do, or will make irrational requests without thinking about whether or not there's any practical difference in what they ask for. Reply
haplo602 - Friday, February 22, 2013 - linkI don't think you are getting the point. We don't need FPS benchmarks on a working setup. We need accoustic,thermal and space/build checked.
So you don't need tripple SLI o what not. Just scrape in 3 cards and load all of them (bitcoin comes to mind). You can even make bitcoin run on the cpu, so you have a realy HOT setup in the case. You need to generat head and fan noise, not pretty FPS numbers.
Get ANY large mobo that will fit (you can get old dual opteron setups for peanuts on ebay) and mount it. Are there cable routing problems when the case is fully packed ? This kind of thing is critical for a big case. An mATX board will not help checking this out. Reply
SVoyager - Tuesday, February 26, 2013 - link^ This!
Dustin, the review you did was great and even after seeing the picture of the case with your board mounted (a bit of a facepalm there when I saw it), most of the data of the review was quite useful.
Still, in the quest of making things better, what haplo602 said above is spot on. Full towers are meant to be filled with things. Say, if I get both the drive cages full of drives, does this case fare better than another one with similar setups. Will the drive noise leak out from the front or will the door dampen the noise enough? Will the cage design affect airflow in a way to make things more efficient or will the air be blocked so much that the whole system temps take a huge hit? Will fully populated drive cages create cable management issues? etc.
Keep up the good work, no need to be frustrated on this, the review is nice and the suggestions here can only make future reviews even better!
Now fill that tower up! :-)
Cheers! Reply
Hrel - Tuesday, March 26, 2013 - linkYou lose the ability to guage how well it fits. How much room there is to work with, from the pictures. How well do the cables reach. So on and so forth. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkProbably gonna be my next case. Unless they can pull off a smaller one (mid tower) with the same acoustics, or better. Sexy as fuck, this is how a case should look. Fractal Design doing it right.
Curious though, why do you make such a big deal about fan controllers? Do you never buy fans that automatically adjust their speed based on temp? Antec has some really good ones. I highly recommend them. Makes a dedicated fan controller silly and pointless. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - link1. Buying fans that would automatically adjust their speed based on temperature would mean having to replace what comes with the case.
2. I personally prefer a constant, low volume to fans ramping up and down depending on load. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkBut... if you're just going to keep them at the lowest possible speed, or medium or whatever, then why so you need a fan controller? The fans in most cases never change speed, they just run. Scythe has some very nice low RPM high CFM fans for cases. That's what I normally use as intake fans. I prefer to buy cases with as few fans as possible already in them though; then put in what I want. I guess in this price range you expect to not have to do that. Based on your acoustic testing though I'd say the fans in this are well balanced. Reply
kmmatney - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkI prefer just buying cheap fans, and inserting a resistor cable. I recently bought a set of 5 resistor cables for something like $4 shipped to my door. Then I can buy any cheap $3 fan, and make it silent. I have a large Antec P182 case, and it's completely silent with an overclocked i3570K and HD6800.
Every time a see these reviews I think about upgrading, but I really can't complain about my existing case - it's big and silent. That's the nioce thing about a case - it can last a long time, through several upgrades. I'm on my 4th motherboard since I bought my case. Reply
NeoReaper - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkis it me or this just an old antec p180? how is this different? Reply
The0ne - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkIt is extremely similar. I've built so many with the P180's for others that it came to mind immediately just looking at the front :) I wouldn't be surprise if the design was just slightly changed from the P180. Love the P180 and thus this performs and functions identical. In fact, my nephews' P180s are so quiet sometimes they turn off the computer thinking it was off hahaha Reply
omgia - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI moved from a p180 to an Define R4 recently. The most notable difference between this and the p180 is the cable routing. There is a significant difference in the amount of space behind the motherboard for routing cables. Also, my R4 is 4-6 degrees cooler (F) than my Antec P180 was with the supposedly better thermal sections. This may be because these cases uses 140 vs 120mm fans. But also, with the ability to get all of the wires behind the motherboard, you have better airflow. Something I was personally never able to achieve with the P180. I like the build quality of this case better than the P180 as well. Support for front USB 3.0 is also nice. I was thinking about getting a P280, but after completing my build, I have no reservations that the R4 or XL-R2 are better cases. Reply
akhaddd - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkeep Silence cases are already pretty heavy and well built in their own right, then add another ten pounds and three inches. The Define XL R2 is made almost entirely of steel with really the bare minimum of plastic used in its Reply
lwatcdr - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkWith the new closed loop systems from Corsair, NZXT, and Swift tech it would be nice to know which fit in the case. Yes I know you can not test with every Motherboard but they are becoming mainstream so it would be helpful to add that data even if it just "The mounting screws will fit. Reply
omgia - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI just purchased a Define R4 and one of the biggest problems is reaching the 12V lead up to the top-left of the case.I'm sure most would fit if routed over the top of the motherboard, but you really need a long one to route through the grommets.
One feature of the XL-R2 and the R4's are mounting spaces for SSDs on the back of the motherboard tray. This seems like a great idea at first, but you must mount it prior to installing the motherboard (meaning you'll have to remove the motherboard to remove the drive). And the mounting positions are far enough away from the other drives, it may be difficult to share a power lead between the drive trays and the 2.5" mount points. I was able to share one with a SATA lead with 3 connectors, but not a lead with 2. The center connector on the lead with 3 became useless.
Not sure about the XL-R2, but on the Define R4, the center drive tray is subject to vibration from mechanical drives. Even with the screws on the drive tray holder secured tightly, there were significant vibrations that could easily be heard outside the case. This was evident even using the bottom screw holes with rubber grommets. I had to torque down these screws hard to get the vibrations to stop.
As far as noise goes, these are silent cases, not silencing cases. The foam may help a little, but it is not going to really do any sound deadening. The case on its own is whisper quiet without any components. But I can still hear hard drives chirping and my noisier cpu fan. If you are replacing an existing case, listen to your system without all of your existing case fans running. That is how it will probably sound with an XL-R2 or Define R4. Maybe a decible or two lower, but nothing significant. Reply
Touche - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkIs that GPU crooked? Reply
snakyjake - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI wanted a large case for a NAS/Multipurpose machine that will be in my home, so need something quiet. Reply
bsix - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkWith the Define (regular size) cases the inlet airflow is stifled because of the drive cages and the more restrictive cages they use. This problem seems so be solved by using the bottom fan. This is really the only difference in these two cases from an airflow perspective.
i bet the R4 would do much better with an additional inlet fan on the bottom and potentially some better case fans that can lower the noise floor an additional 2 db.
This would be really appreciated - I bet the R4 would be equal to both the nanoxia and the XL R2 in acoustics with this setup.
Take care. Reply
stratosrally - Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - linkI do realize that Anandtech is known for pulling no punches (and am thankful for that!) but the article really doesn't come across positively enough. The fact that it is such a large case, comes with 3 fans & a fan controller, and performs so well for a suggested list price of only $129.99 ought to be given more emphasis in this review.
The review seems to be almost begrudging in admitting that the XL R2 does so well across the board. For example, the amount of room for cable routing (26mm - more than an inch!) precludes the need for channels in the motherboard plate which would just add complexity and cost.
BTW - the constant promotion of the Nanoxia can be a bit frustrating given that it still isn't available in the US. It, too has no motherboard guide post and you mentioned similar issues in installing the PSU. You also mentioned I/O panel & GPU installation issues. You actually stated you might be coming across as nitpicking in that review, yet gave it the Bronze Editor's Choice Award.
I personally think there's a limit to how much reasonably-priced enclosures can ease assembly. I don't mind installing my own standoffs and paying attention (using both hands, etc.) when installing the PSU. Given the variety of motherboard sizes this case will accept you'd quite possibly be adding or subtracting standoffs anyway.
If I wanted everything done for myself I'd expect to pay a more premium price. As this case is larger and performs equal to or better than the Deep Silence 1 in the tests - IMHO it deserves the Silver or even Gold Award. Reply
five_seven - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkAfter reading so many reviews I, too, am tired of hearing about stand-offs not being installed on a motherboard. An enthusiast building their own PC is doing just that-- building their own PC. If people really feel dragged out by having to figure out how to align a motherboard with a lack of stand-offs or a center stud, they've got bigger problems.
Rather than docking any points from your " utterly worthless, arbitrary point system" over this issue, might I suggest simply indicating if a case provides stand-offs and if the user will need to install them or not. Some objectivity in regards to this issue, however, would be nice. Reply
UNhooked - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkOnce again no watercooling support of any kind was discussed. You really need to start incorporating this. It is now a vital part of case reviews based on mainstream watercooling has become. Reply
piroroadkill - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkThe top of the case above the mobo has plenty of space left for a rad, that was mentioned.
But yes, it wasn't tested. Reply
BlueReason - Thursday, February 21, 2013 - linkYeah that'll fit my two ssds nicely. Reply
DLeRium - Monday, February 25, 2013 - linkSo you spend 2 precious reviews on these two cases, give them gold and bronze awards, and they don't show up in any other case reviews? How am I supposed to make an informed purchasing decision? Reply
Texax - Wednesday, November 13, 2013 - linkPardon my ignorance but what does 12v, 7v and 5v mean? Power supply output? Reply
Nicholas Steel - Sunday, March 30, 2014 - linkCould someone explain the difference between (7v) and (12v) on the Noise and Thermal Testing page? The page explaining the system setups doesn't explain why the case is listed twice in the benchmarks with an arbitrary designation... Reply
Nicholas Steel - Sunday, March 30, 2014 - linkOh wait, nevermind. I forgot you're testing each Case Fan Preset. Reply