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NVIDIA's GeForce 6 SLI: Demolishing Performance Barriersby Anand Lal Shimpi on 11/23/2004 10:23 AM EST
- Posted in
- GPUs
74 Comments
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Kolbe - Monday, February 14, 2005 - linkBUYER BEWARE!!
first, I have this ASUS motherboard and two GigaByte 6600GT's. AFter countless hours of trying to get this to work AND of course upgrading bios and drivers, I came to find out that these two gigabyte cards are not certified by Nvidia and they will not work in the sli mode on this ASUS board. ASUS has not returned my calls or my emails, but gigabyte, bless their hearts, wrote me back and said in essence: "our 6600GT cards work on OUR board" so too bad. Thank God for Newegg and their awesome return policy. I am returning these two and getting one 6800 GT, but of course, not from Gigabyte! Reply
mashie - Sunday, December 05, 2004 - linkIt would be nice to see tests at 2048x1536. After all if you can afford the videocards for SLI I bet you can get a proper monitor as well ;) Reply
Denial - Thursday, December 02, 2004 - linkAgain, why no vanilla 6800's? How would they compete with the 6600GT's in SLI? This is starting to get rediculous. Reply
nserra - Friday, November 26, 2004 - linkSorry forgot link.
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041123/... Reply
nserra - Friday, November 26, 2004 - link#69 Yeah i agree.
But let me tell you i already see something that SLI will give me.
Having a 6600 and a X700 on the same PC. Reply
piroroadkill - Friday, November 26, 2004 - linkI don't know if anyone's said this, but SLI is an absolutely stupid idea, why on earth don't they take the 3Dfx Voodoo5 approach and just stick two GPUs on one card? Surely this would yield similar benefits without special mobo requirements.. 16x PCIe is easily enough bandwidth to cope... then just double the amount of RAM on the card and surely this is more viable solution? sure it'd be an insanely costly card, but still cheaper than an SLI setup, and lets face it, once a single card can outpace your shiny new SLI setup, that SLI setup is going to look poor value for money and you're just going to waste both cards, it seems obscene. Reply
stance - Thursday, November 25, 2004 - linkwill the new duel core amd cpus that come out mext year be supported by this motherboard Reply
stance - Thursday, November 25, 2004 - linkReply
tombman - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkANAND, please answer:
1.) Can you really force SLI for games with no profile in the driver?
2.) please make 2048x1536 or higher Tests (my CRT can da 2304x1440 :D)
3.) please make 8xAA Tests
4.) please check if HDR (high dynamic range rendering) in far cry works in SLI mode (other sites say no)
Especially # 1.) is very important.
If only games with a profile can run in SLI mode, SLI will not become very popular imo. We know nvidia- they will only have profiles for benchmarks and most common hyped games. For not so popular games there surely will be no profiles...
thx Reply
tombman - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linktest Reply
CrystalBay - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - link#61 good point, I also wonder how well it runs at super high resolutions... Reply
PrinceGaz - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkWe've seen profiles for many games in nVidia drivers since the 5x.xx series, I expect the SLI mode is just something they've added to it for when the card is running in an SLI mode. If in doubt, I'd have thought SLI AFR will be fine for most games that don't have a profile defined (assuming you can choose SLI mode), or SFR for those games that use motion-blurring (usually certain types of racing games). Reply
Pampero - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkwhere in the review talk about the profiles?
Is there a list of the games that can enable SLI?
Gatak - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkWhere is the 2048x1536 tests? It is clear that 1600x1200 is no match for the SLI setup in most games. Why not do testing at higher resolution.
If 2048x1536 ran smoothly, Then the demand for better monitors would be stronger - giving manufacturers reason to make better monitors for us =). Reply
PrinceGaz - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - link#55- If SLI is only able to be used on games nVidia have profiled like you say, and that the user cannot themselves force it to run in SLI AFR or SFR mode, then that's a serious problem for people who play non-mainstream games who might be considering SLI.
After reading this article, I now believe more than ever that the only people who should be seriously considering SLI are those who are willing to buy two 6800GT or 6800 Ultra cards in one go, in order to have a top of the range system. The upgrade option doesn't make sense.
Anand didn't compare the costs of an SLI upgrade against a non-SLI upgrade; instead he compared buying a second 6600GT later on when they're cheaper, to buying a high-end card initially and *not* doing any upgrade. Of course it's going to be more expensive if you buy a high-end card from the outset.
The true upgrade alternative is that instead of buying a second (now cheaper) 6600GT to achieve roughly 6800GT performance, you would sell your 6600GT while it can still fetch a good price and put the money towards a (now also cheaper) 6800GT or maybe a mid-range next-generation card that has the required performance. When you look at how much prices fall on high-end cards when something even a little faster comes out, pushing them nearer to mid-range cards; it should be obvious that replacing the card with a faster one is a more cost-effective option for anyone considering an upgrade at a later date, than buying a second identical card on top of the one you already have.
Yes there's the hassle of selling your first card, but not only do you have total flexibility over what you upgrade to (with SLI you have none); you also don't need an SLI mobo, you won't have two graphics-cards generating excess noise, and you'll have a lot more PCI/PCI-e slots left free for other cards. Reply
bob661 - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkIMHO, SLI is for people like me and also for people that need to have the latest and greatest. People like me don't upgrade every 3 months, 6 months, or even a year. I upgrade every 2.5 to 3 years. It would be nice to be able to run 2006 or 2007 games on 2004 technology. Who knows, this might extend my upgrades to 4 years. ;-) Reply
Momental - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - link#56 I would imagine that nVidia is aware of this and who knows, they may implement a utility within their driver that automatically flashes the BIOS of the "older" card, if one is detected. Either that, or they could write something into the driver to search for another GPU and once it's found, ask you if you would like to flash its BIOS upon restart. And voila!
The fact of the matter is that it's way too early to speculate as to whether or not SLI is a viable and cost-effective solution. Something tells me that it will be because it's not like the "next big thing" ie: cards that are twice as fast, are right around the corner. If they were, then I'd say 'no'. It isn't worth it for reasons stated by #42. Reply
nserra - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkI think the issue of the card to MUST have the same bios is ENORMOUS. So the buy one now and buy the other LATER will "not" be possible. I doubt that a year old card has the same BIOS of brand new one.
Too much "issues"… Reply
nserra - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkI think the issue of the card to MUST have the same bios is ENORMOUS. So the buy one now and buy the other lather will "not" be possible. I doubt that a year old card has the same BIOS of brand new one.
Too much "issues"… Reply
Elliot - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkI want one of this SLI boards but the article said that you can force the driver to enable SLI on games without profiles on Nvidia drivers but this is not real.
If no SLI profile exists for a game, there is no SLI rendering. It is not possible to force SLI mode or generate your own profile. According to NVIDIA however the driver already contains over 50 profiles for games running with SLI. For newer titles this therefore means that SLI system owners have to wait for a new driver. But even then there is no guarantee that SLI will be possible with a particular game. So this is not very good news. Reply
glennpratt - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - link51 - Yeah, and the Voodoo 2 used analog to pass the signal from one card to the other externally. What would you suggest, nVidia make a card that is PCI and combines the signal using analog cables degrading your video quality? Idiocy.
How many people owned V2 SLI setup and ran it on a crappy computer anyway? Reply
bob661 - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkYou guys could buy a cheaper CPU and do a mild overclock to get the performance needed. I have a 3500 and I still plan on getting SLI. There's ways to get around the price issue. If I was buying a new system right now I would've gotten a 3200 "winnie" and OC'd it to 2.6GHz. That would put you at FX-55 speeds. If you're lucky you could hit 2.8 to 2.9GHz. Reply
bob661 - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - link#49
You don't need an extravagent budget to afford a monitor that can handle 1600x1200. The Samsung SyncMaster 997DF-T/T 19" CRT can do that for $209 on Newegg.com. I have the older 955DF version which does it too. Reply
nserra - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkVOODOO2 didnt NEED any of this, it worked on any MOBO, any monitor, any CARD, any ...... Reply
nserra - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkBuy Monitor.
Buy PSU.
Buy MOBO.
Buy 2 graphics cards.
Buy good CASE.
Buy the top of the line processor.
Too much buys, And all of these itens ALL HAVE TO BE TOP ($$$) OF THE LINE!!!
I dont have the money, sorry not for me.
Gundamit - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkIt sounds like if you don't already have a monitor that supports at 1600x1200 you'll have a hard time justifying the SLI expense since you won't see nearly as much performance gain over the single card set-ups at lower resolutions. Just one more expense to consider. Thank goodness LCD panel prices seem to be dropping. I'm onboard for SLI with 6800GTs late Q1 '05. Should be plenty of info and mobo selections out by then. Reply
AtaStrumf - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkI said it before and it looks like I need to say it again:
SLI like performance improvement (40 - 70% where it counts) in a single GPU over the previous generation single GPU isn't going to happen for AT LEAST 2 years! Example 9700 Pro (2002)/X800XT (2004)
The other benefit is obviously MUCH lower upgrade cost. Theoretical example: an new $200 9800 Pro or $400 GF 6800 GT and this is really the worst case scenario for SLI -- it would have a lot of performance to make up; but I think that won't happen for a long time.
And don't forget that we are hitting walls with current technologies, so future generation cards may take much longer than 2 years to bring the 9700/X800 like performance improvement.
Just look at what ATi is doing. They're going for SLI as well, because there is no way in hell they can compete with it with a single GPU or any kind of single card design that woudn't require it's own power supply and air conditioning unit.
SLI and dual core is the future; just not for me :-( TOO EXPENSIVE! Reply
SignalPST - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkThank you for the article, Anand. It was very informative and exciting.
I would like to make a suggestion. Since SLI configurations, as everyone knows, is targeted towards the very top notch enthusiasts, I think it would make a lot of sense to include benchmarks using HDTV(1920x1080) resolutions and the 2048x1536 resolution. A lot of high end 22" CRT monitors as well as high end 23" widescreen LCD's support these resolutions. I imagine these enthusiasts looking for SLI solutions would also be using those types of displays and wondering what kind of performance they would get with their dual video card setup.
-SignalPST Reply
SuperStrokey - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkI wish this would work with 2 agp cards too, would be nice if i could upgrade my bfg6800 gt to a secong one on teh cheap when the new cards come out rather than having to buy a new card. Reply
kongming - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkNevermind, the V9999 is still just AGP for the time being. Hopefully, they will offer this card in PCI-e in the future. Reply
kongming - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - linkWhat I would like to see is the SLI performance increase of the ASUS V9999 6800GT with only 128MB of memory compared with a stock 6800GT with 256MB. If this card gets a particularly good boost from SLI, That would make it an even better deal. Reply
coldpower27 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkWell there's also the rumored that next generation cards will not be double performance, as it's likely were going to see 6 quad solutions from NV and ATI next year, 8 quad is just too much, for even the 90nm process to handle. THough I would be pleasantly surprised if it's not. Reply
Drayvn - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkWhat im wondering is what happens if its something like the 9800pro then a year later we got the X800XT-PE or Ultra
It was twice as fast, and in terms of technology we have SM3 also which we now have in 1 game.
9800Pro's performance was doubled by the PE and Ultra. So what would happen when lets say if SLI came out then.
Why would anyone want to buy another 9800Pro? Since u could get the PE with a few added features which are being used now...?
IT doubles the performance and with the extra features it further expands that performance gap. So is buying 2 9800pros worth it. Especially when they are still really expensive
Of course this is all hypothetical, and i love SLI but what im getting at, is it now time that nVidia and ATi will slow down their product life cycles?
Will they now have no refresh cards anymore, since when they bring out their next gen cards, 6 months down the road there is no need to buy a refresh as that only adds little performance and everyone can just buy another card for the same price and get double? Reply
ceefka - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkPCI-E, SLI, it´s all graphics so far. Can this technology also be used for soundcards? Can we have 24 channels of 192KHz/32bit someday on PCI-e SLI? If so then the whole bunch should be reconfigurable meaning that you can spread capacity equally over all slots or place emphasis where needed. If that's where we're heading, we're in for some exciting computing. Reply
R3MF - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#30 is correct, SLI for the Geforce 6 generation makes a lot of sense if your pockets are deep enough.
SLI for Geforce 7 will be a different proposition, the imminent move to 0.9u and DX10 will create a generational leap when Geforce 8 arrives, so running two Geforce 7's won't be so clever. Reply
bob661 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI think SLI is worth the money and the present games can use it. But damn is it expensive. I'll still get it though. :-) Reply
KAM04m - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI personally think SLI is not worth it for the money. Plus i dont run the game at 1600x1200 only 1024x768. SLI setup prices will drop in the future and thats when the newer games will really need the extra bandwith! Until then AGP is still my bud for another year. Reply
sophus - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkcpu limited...? anyone care to theorize if dualies would help increase performance? or what is the limiting factor (bandwidth)? Reply
sophus - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkReply
Filibuster - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#33 you can find a few XFX 6800GT PCie cards on pricewatch but they want like $550 for them.
(I just looked and they are not there anymore though)
There was a reference card on ebay the other day for $400 though...
They are basically impossible to get without paying a rediculous amount for. Reply
bob661 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#33
I found one here.
I don't know if they actually have one in stock though. Reply
jshuck3 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkWhere are they getting the 6800GT PCI Express cards? I can't find them anywhere...are they even out yet or are these just review boards? Reply
L1FE - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#28 If the nextgen video cards are also SLI capable, then SLI offers even more performance for a new GPU launch. If you don't want SLI that's your choice, but SLI offers consumers a wider range of choices just because cominations now make it that much more complicated. Whether that's a good or bad thing is yet to be seen, but I like how it makes things exciting between new GPU releases. Reply
T8000 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkAltrough it is nice to see Nvidia take PC gaming quality one step further, these solutions are more expensive than ever before.
But where does this money come from, you ask. Well, since CPU's are stuck at around 3 Ghz (or almost equal) for some time now, people look for other upgrades to buy.
And SLI is an easy way to explain that a top-end GPU solution now costs $1000 instead of $500, because it now contains two $500 cards.
But since SLI is much cheaper than pre-overclocked (Falcon/Alienware) solutions, it is currently worth its premium for a lot of users.
It also creates an interesting problem for ATI, to sell technology that is way behind for lowewr prices or to copy the SLI concept, hoping that their users are willing to wait. Reply
miketheidiot - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#28 the next gen of both nVidia and ATI will be only a tiny jump over the current generation. We won't see another big jump until DX10 has been out for a while. The next jump will be a 9700 to 9800 style jump, if that.
http://www.anandtech.com/news/shownews.aspx?i=2340... Reply
VIAN - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkYeah, where is 8xAA/16xAF. I want that tested. I mean with all that power, who wouldn't want to see the results of the fabulous 8xAA IQ. Reply
FICo - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkSo does Nvidia now want everyone to buy 2 of their cards? I really hope its not popular. They should just design faster GPUs rather then relying on such a sledgehammer approach. Nvidia seem to bring out new GPUs once a year, and updates 6 months into a products life. So the new "Geforce 7" chip will be out end of spring time next year. Of course the performance of a single card "GeFroce 7 Ultra" will be a big jump as usual, and will most likely out perform todays PCs with dual 6800 Ultras. Nvidia's SLI technology is certainly interesting, shame its such poor value for money. Surely a dual core approach would be cheaper for the public to buy, yet still offering extra performance. Reply
Filibuster - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkDual Voodoo2 cards is what, 200Mpixel/s? :) Reply
Jeff7181 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkThinking about it more, I think I'd rather just see some 32 pipeline GPU's with 512 MB of RAM and it's very own nuclear reactor to power it :) Reply
Souka - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkAnyone want SLI cheap? don't even have to upgrade your moherboard.....
For sale.... two 8mb 3dFx Voodoo2 boards wih SLI cable...PCI interface of course..... it rocked in the 90's....why not now?
bob661 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#18
The hardcore gamers would just buy new video cards. Reply
reboos - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link"Nvidia bought the patents, pending patent applications, trademarks, brand names, and chip inventory related to the graphics business of 3dfx."
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/12/15/2244256.shtm... Reply
fuzzynavel - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI think 3DFX were bought by nvidia...or at least the rights to the technology....so it is technically the same company...I remember the days of 3DFX scan line interleave....fantastic! Reply
bob661 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#17
Two Opterons would be downright scary if they were limited too. But a 4000 is no slouch. :-) It's still amazing. I happen to agree with #12 but the real test of that theory would be to test slower CPU's and see how the performance scales. Reply
reboos - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkOdd as it may sound, should we be thanking 3DFX for this?
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/12/15/2244256.shtm... Reply
Gnoad - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkAlthough SLI is exciting, I found myself wanting more info on the Asus board... Reply
haris - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI just had some more thoughts about why SLI/Multi rendering might not be such a great move by Nvidia/ATI.
When they launch their next generation cards they are expecting to rake in some extra money from the extreme gamers, right? What happens to that same card when they start purchasing relatively cheap last gen cards instead. This might then lead to something like this: In order for them to get that additional $ during the begining of the next gen card's life cycle they might have to slow down the production cycle of cards to give them more time in the high-end position. Reply
Jeff7181 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - link#14... why? You have TWO GPU's here... and ONE CPU. Why is it so amazing that two GPU's can put the squeenze on one CPU? Now... stick a 6800U SLI setup with a couple Opteron 250's with an application that's multi-threaded and THEN I'd be amazed if it was still CPU limited. Reply
Aquila76 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkOr was that 330 Watts the total system usage? (doubtful) Reply
Aquila76 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkWhat power supply was used in your testbed? If the SLI setup requires at load ~ 330 Watts, I would think you'd need around a 550W unit for your setup. Reply
bob661 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI find it absolutely amazing that they were CPU limited using a 4000+. Reply
Avalon - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkAnand, you keep saying that a 6600GT in SLI outperforms a 6800U in Doom 3 and HL2, but your benchmarks look partially wrong to be concluding that. It seems it would be more correct if you said that a 6600GT in SLI outperforms a single 6800U in lower res, lower bandwidth situations (such as 12x10 with low AA/AF, or less), but in high res and bandwidth situations (such as 16x12 with a bit of AA/AF), the 6600GT doesn't appear to be able to keep up at all with a single 6800U. Buyers will need to take that into consideration, to make sure that the video setup they will be purchasing will meet their needs specifically. Reply
lifeguard1999 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkOne simple question: Are there Linux drivers that support SLI?
Historically, people have talked about a setup either being CPU bound or GPU bound. That is no longer the case. With SLI it appears that the limiting factor is data. Simply put, there is not enough data for the dual GPU's to render. This is a common problem in parallel programming, especially when you are talking about thousands of processors. By increasing the amount of data for the GPU to render, one can see that SLI performs better.
For example, at 1600x1200, the increase is only 20% going from simgle 6800U to 6800U-SLI. Now by increasing the amount of work for the GPU to perform (1600x1200 with 4X AA and 8X AF), the performance increases 48% going from simgle 6800U to 6800U-SLI.
What this means is that game developers can now have Low, Medium, High, Ultra, and Ultra-SLI rendering modes in their games. :) What a nice "problem" to have.
In my line of work (Scientific Visualization) where we can have models up to hundreds of millions of polygons, SLI is going to cause a revolution in how we do business. Reply
Alphafox78 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkwow, if I my LCD went to 1600x1200 SLI might help me slightly... I wonder what % of people actually play with the res that high. at 1280x1024 with my 6800GT AGP overclocked to ultra speeds with 4x aa and 8x anistropic I noticed no slowdowns in the game, smooth as can be for 95% of the game. Reply
GhandiInstinct - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkYes, great performance increase, but its too expensive to afford for most people. Unless you're 3 generations behind and need a new system chances are you'll buy this but not for people that have stabe up to par systems. This just isn't a wise investment when ATI's multi-gpu technology is right around the corner which doesn't limit you to the inferior Nvidia. Reply
OriginalReaper - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI dont see why 8xAA wasn't used. It's clearly not GPU limited at 4xAA 8xAF. Reply
blckgrffn - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI am glad that NVIDIAs drivers seem fairly mature already, hopefully they will have a new release out by the time SLI becomes "mainstream". It would have been awful had this real release been tainted by a lot of driver issues. So, the real point here is that if you really want performance, you have to drop $800 at some point? Wow. Two 6600GTs already are not the optimum choice for 1600*1200, so a 6800GT is what should be purchased now if you are really all about fps. Hmmm. I suppose I do know people who would like the incremental upgrade path, but I am not one of them when it comes to graphics cards - I sell my "old" one just before the new product cycle really starts appearing in quanities on the shelves and go for the new technology, and I am guessing that many who have $800 to spend on graphics cards would do something similar. I am jealous of those who will be able to spring for a big-power SLI setup out of pocket... Reply
dak - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkI'm curious, is it possible to use two PCI-X video cards in these SLI boards, but not have them configured SLI? I have some applications that would benefit greatly from having two high end dual output cards in a single computer..... Reply
shabby - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkGreat article Anand, can you mention which psu you used to feed those hungry 6800 ultra's? Reply
Aquila76 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkLooks like SLI'd 6800GT's are a great option for now. I'm greatly awaiting ATI's Multi-Rendering products now. Can't wait for that benchmark setup! Reply
JClimbs - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkA few things glossed over in the 'upgrade path' argument:
costly up-front mobo purchase. These boards will go down in price, but unless they're a total flop they won't drop nearly as much as a non-SLI board's price slope.
power supply. Lets face it, when you get around to running two cards, you will need to purchase a more robust PS than those sold with most cases. If you've already spent the cash on a high-quality PS, fine; but upgrade paths are generally not pointed at folks who spend big bucks on a PS.
Fans. Two GPUs under the hood will almost certainly want more cooling. Admittedly, they're cheap. Good thing...
Electric Bill. The power draw of today's Graphics Cards is already breathtaking. With two of 'em chugging away under the hood, that drain looks absolutely scary. Reply
Ecmaster76 - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkAnyone want to bet that the two GPU's are using a hypertransport or derived interconnect. The bandwidth quoted is in the same neighborhood as an Athlon's, but probably a little faster since the trace lengths are short and straight. Reply
ChronoReverse - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkPretty nice speed bumps, but the 6600GT sli is disappointing in how it seems to always lag behind even the 6800GT with high-resolutions and AA+AF enabled. Reply
ariafrost - Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - linkSLI has a lot of potential, that's for sure... :D Reply

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NYC Odakota Boots by 3DSublimeProductions ()
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It's hot here in SC and I wear flip flops 7 months out of the year....
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South African model Natasha Barnard has appeared in quite a number of photo shoots ever since she landed the 2013 Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition as a rookie. So, we decided to compile her sexiest shots from Facebook and Instagram.
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Proper bisque temperature in relation to final firing temp
Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:58 AM
Recently in reading posts by posters who clearly have extensive knowledge, I have found references to firing to a higher temperature for the bisque firing, and lower for subsequent firings. In researching the subject, I did discover a reference in a book to using that order when working with low fire clays, and reversing the order when using mid or high fire clays, but this is contrary to what I was originally instructed, so now I'm a bit confused. Let's say I have a clay that fires in the 1-4 range, and I want to bisque it, then underglaze fire it -- and possibly finish it off with additions of a cone 4 glaze. How should I proceed, in terms of firing temps? And why? Would that procession be different if the clay were a mid range clay, firing from 2 to 6? And why?
Posted 02 October 2012 - 10:36 AM
Bisque firing is very misunderstood because many of the institutions where pottery students learn and work want to keep everything as simple as possible so they make a sound decision to bisque at 04-06 then fire at Cone 6 or 10. This gives good results across a wide spectrum of situations. Unfortunately this is often presented as a RULE rather than a studio option, so students leave thinking this is the only correct way to fire.
The fun part comes when you get your own kiln and realize that these numbers are not carved in stone. Bisque is simply a way to get rid of impurities and get the clay past quartz inversion so it becomes a new material. It can be done across a wide range of temperatures with no one solution being "right" for everyone.
Clays that are bisque fired at the cool end ... say 08 - 010 ... stay open and will absorb more glaze ... this is good for pit firing and raku where every little nook and cranny is just waiting to grab color. The downside being that the piece is much more fragile than one bisqued at 04 - 06. A cone 10 clay bisque fired this low will be very open whereas a Cone 2 clay will be more closed.
Porcelains are often bisque fired at Cone 10 then glaze fired at a lower temp. This is because they need to be supported so cannot have glaze on both sides.
Sometimes potters bisque hotter than the final fire because they like the color at that higher Cone but their surface treatments can only be fired a lot lower ... say 018 for lusters and such. People who make intricate surface designs fire high first to get the piece to maturity, then fire dozens of times at low temp as they apply underglaze color.
Bisque firings don't even need to be done if you learn the skills of once firing.
The trick is to match your bisque to your clay and what you want ... what you are looking for. The only way to find out is to try different variables with your clay. See if you get better results at 07 than you do at 04. See if you like the way your colors look at Cone 5 rather than 6. If you are now in your own studio, you can try whatever combinations you want until you find your look, the one that suits you and your work.
- Mark McCombs and Nancy S. like this
Contemporary Fine Colored Porcelain
" If a sufficient number of people are different, no one has to be normal "
Fredrick Bachman
Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:02 AM
Thanks Chris for your insight, I am a newbie with my own kiln and bisque to cone 04; low fire to cone 04 sometimes to cone 05; mid range fire to cone 5 because I really like the colors. Reading your post has really jazzed me up..........can hardly wait until the weekend to start potting.....
Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:47 PM
Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:07 PM
Any oxidation refining will destroy your reduction effects ... Everything is a trade off. If you high fire first to make it mature you lose the openness ... As to the underglaze colors again it all depends ... Do you like them better at 05 or 6 or 10?
BORING hours of testing ahead for you!
I have clay tests of all my underglaze colors at 05, 6 and 10 so I can quickly see which one I want to use.
Make a tile, cut lines into it like ruled notepaper then divide those into four parts. Name of the underglaze, Cone 10, Cone 6, Cone 05. Then apply the underglazes to the highest temp squares and fire. Then add to the next and fire. Then to the lowest and fire ... Bingo you have a test tile. Adjust this as needed for the temps you fire at.
I will be off the forum for the next three weeks but will check in to see what's up when I can get Internet access.
Contemporary Fine Colored Porcelain
" If a sufficient number of people are different, no one has to be normal "
Fredrick Bachman
Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:42 PM
Neil Estrick
Kiln Repair Tech
L&L Kilns Distributor
Owner, Neil Estrick Gallery, LLC
Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:19 AM
Unfortunately this is often presented as a RULE rather than a studio option, so students leave thinking this is the only correct way to fire.
You are (as always) making some great points in that posting, Chris.
There is an interesting problem in teaching in any field that crops up time after time after time which often leads to this "rules" business, and many other things. It really ultimately deals with the "disconnects" between various instructor's teaching styles and various student's learning styles. And a bit of how the typical "educational system" works.
Many times information is presented by an instructor in a certain manner. But then, if there is a failure on that teacher's part to utilize the real-time "check for understanding" step in the dynamic back-and-forth teaching process, what actually got communicated and what was intended to be communicated are sometimes two very different things. But the instructor does not KNOW this... because he/she never enquired what the student was recieving. So he/she goes on merrily to the next thing.... assuming that everyone is on the same page now.
Because everyone does not learn the same way, if a teacher solely utilizes a single modality (most will default to the one that THEY themselves learn best by), students that do not fit that particular pedagogical approach are not getting the message that the teacher thinks they are.
Teacher is saying/showing "It depends"..................... student is hearing/seeing "Do it this way".
So sometimes it is not that the concepts are presented intentionally as hard-and-fast "rules", but it is the impact of what might be called "less than highly skilled teaching" that results in the student's understanding of the idea as being some sort of rule. That is not the case all the time.... but unfortunately it happens that way a surprising number of times.
One of the downsides of the current format for collegiate-level teaching of ceramics is that the qualifications for the teaching positions typically solely require an MFA degree. The typical course of study in that overall BFA/MFA path has its emphasis on lots of important aspects of developing a successful, productive, professional creative artist. But it does not typically provide a lot of courses forcused on the art and science of education. So an MFA graduate might be a GREAT artist. But that does not make them a great TEACHER.
Some of these folks have some inherent skills in teaching, and that is maybe what tends to lead them toward a teaching career in the first place. They start off with some "tools in the kit" and then because they know a bit about how education seems to work, eventually expand their capabilities over time and experiential learning on the job. The students unfortunately end up being the "guinea pigs" as the professors develop their teaching skills so that their effectiveness rate with a diverse pool of students improves.
Many people learn what they know about the art of teaching ceramics by the experiences that THEY have had in the institutions. They use their teachers as role models for "how it is done". Sometimes the role model being used is not all that skilled a teacher, but their teaching style and this particular future grad's learning style meshed nicely.... which is why that student is shortly graduating (or whatever). So that approach to teaching ceramics tends to gets passed along as "the" way to teach clay. As opposed to A way to teach clay.
There certainly are many exceptions to this idea, and there are some really GREAT ceramics professors out there who are supurb teachers as well as artists. (I've had a few, met many, and currently work with a great team of ceramics educators at NHIA.) And some have HAD educational development courses as well in their course of study.
Unfortunately, there are also some folks out there that DO teach stuff as hard-and-fast "rules" too when they shouldn't.
Personally, I have always been very glad that I was an education minor in college, and that also in another field I was given years of a high level training in intructional methodology. I still screw up frequently to this day, but I feel that training has helped me greatly in teaching at the college level (and in workshops and other venues too).
So sometimes the root of the misunderstandings you hear "on the street" are not what we all think they are.
John Baymore
Adjunct Professor of Ceramics; New Hampshire Insitute of Art
Former Guest Professor, Wuxi Institute of Arts and Science, Yixing, China
Former President and Past President; Potters Council
Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:02 PM
Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:14 PM
Trying to remember if any colleges/universities require their professors/assistant professors/adjunct professors/teaching assistants to have teaching degrees (or couresework) -- like primary and secondary schools require. I don't recall any of my college instructors having teaching degrees or being licensed to teach in a particular state.
Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:39 PM
- Firing to a higher bisque(looking at the vitrification temperature of the clay body) than glaze temperature, came about with the onset of the manufactories that produced ceramics in bulk and were interested in a high success rate. By bisquing to vitrification the warpage factor was dealt with before any time or effort was invested in glazing and decorating the ware which could be lost through warpage. It must be remembered that profit was the motivating factor for this.
- However this comes at a price as ware fired at a lower glaze temperature does not fully develop the glaze interaction layer (that is the zone where the glaze and the body interact). This is the zone where glaze fit comes into play as well the the development of certain glaze attributes. This can be seen by comparing the quality of glazes fired on high bisque at a lower temperature to glazes fired at a higher temperature at a lower bisque. These glazes do not have the depth or "soul" for want of a better word. They are more akin to a coat of paint than a full integration with the clay body.
- Another downside is that the glazing process becomes more problematic. The glaze has to be "doped" to be able to adhere to the non porous bisque. Industry has the technology to deal with this whereas for the studio potter it creates more difficulty in getting enough glaze on the ware to get a good depth of coverage.
- I work extensively with multiple firings at 800.C (cone016-015 depending on firing speed). However I still glaze at vitrification point (Cone 10) after a Cone 04 bisque. This allows me to add extra colour and effects to the surface with overglaze (otherwise known as onglaze or china paints). However these colours just sit on the surface and don't integrate with the glaze. However if I were to fire this higher say at Cone 04 upwards these colours (though NOT lustres) would begin to sink into the glaze and become not so intense. This then then becomes known as Inglaze colours.
- Overglaze work can be done at any temperature. Cone 6 glazes can be fired over a Cone 10 glaze as can any of the low fired glazes. The problem then is the same as for any overglaze work: getting it to adhere to a higher fired surface.
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