text:
AMD's 65nm Preview Part 2 - The Plot Thickens (Updated with Information from AMD)by Anand Lal Shimpi on 12/21/2006 12:12 AM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
52 Comments
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OcHungry - Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - linkI was wondering if there was a way to PM or email you.
I would like to bring to your attention a few concerns regarding the forum and the moderators that you need to be aware of. Is there an email or can I PM you in any way?
I would appreciate your respond.
Bayad shoma bedaneed.
tashakore Reply
SilverMirage - Saturday, December 23, 2006 - linkI understand that we are looking at limiting games by the CPU and not the graphics card, but lets be a little realistic...some of those performance per watt figures aren't what an end user is going to be seeing when comparing his options. Reply
Wwhat - Saturday, December 23, 2006 - linkPerhaps a weird thought but AMD bought that new ZRAM process that theoretically could put a huge cache on a small space with the flaw that it had so-so latency, then they later bought version 2 of the same but so far they didn't use it.
Now what if this is an experiment with that technology, or a preamble, because at some time you would expect them to start using stuff they bought the license off, although at the time of the ZRAM announcement people were projecting use in a very far future that might not be what AMD has in mind, or the situation might have changed as to the performance of current versions of ZRAM.
What do you think, any link to it?
Tujan - Friday, December 22, 2006 - linkIf you look,you'll see a story here in Anandtech.com for the first AMD X2s dated June 2005. The processor there was the 'top notch,for something unheard of in the processor industry. And even so doing with DDR400 memory.
What is strange in these processor scenarios. There is Moores law. And there is the 'business quarter law. The article here,of wich I am commenting to,if the first of the detail in the "new processors"-the 65Nm processors. The AMDX2xs where also "new" when the 2005 articles was published. Today,as of reading this article,the "old"(and then top notch)is no longer being supported ..or as per use,no longer maintaining the subject cache sizes. AND well,point me if I am not correct,but the "old"processors are no longer going to be manufactured.
Well I have usually considered that in these events of "new,and old"technology that somehow,if something is 18 months past.I can actually afford it. This changes a little with the new Intel setups. Since the Intel lineups finally seem to break this cycle of the previous as I explained here.
For an entire year,I saw article after article,putting AMDs top notch as base line for performance. Ney user could address something of a culminating relationship to what had performance and what they could afford. And AMDs "top notch" an "industry standard" wich of course nobody could afford. At least if somebody was passing the buck,it wasn't happening with me.
Annyway,I would just like to say I wish AMD good luck.Yet I cannot be ashamed to say that I can now put together a system for less than 1000$ with the same parts as that '"top notch"industry standard seen for the permiating part of 2005.
Am I better for thinking that way ? 18 months passed,and my dollars are spendable but not supported ? I dont think that anybody could consider an AMD setup a 'low-end setup if for example the 4800+1Mb l2 can be had for 230$.
That is the enevitable consequence is the final exhaustion of the supply of the component. Yet I could say that I have a "top notch" 2005 version of AMD technology. With 2007 PARTS! Being on the exhausted end,I dont know who could feel better about this.
Wish AMD luck. Still with their record,I probably should say that I do not wish to look forward to exhaustion,at the same time as extingusishment,as in the mentioning of taking a break to what one pays for.
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkJust my pint into the fire:
X2 4200+EE & GF6150 board (MSI K9NGM2-FID)
$240 (170+75)
E6300 $ G965 board (ASUS P5B-VM)
$285 (185+100)
Anything cheaper is K8 vs. Netburst so Intel is no contender.
Anything more expensive is K8 vs. C2D clock/clock so AMD is no contender (4800+65nm is more expensive than E6400 it matches by perf.)
For decent IGP-free boards the difference is comparable.
So, going for
stock performance the choice is simple:
<$300 for CPU+MB combo go AMD X2
>$300 for CPU+MB combo go Intel C2D
for overclocking:
<$240 for CPU+MB combo go AMD X2
$240-$285 -> wait and then Intel C2D
>$285 for CPU+MB combo go Intel C2D
for power consumption (i.e. PC's for office use):
AMD X2 3800+EE to 5000+EE (anything above or down is a waste of money in this case)
for single core:
<$190 for CPU + MB combo -> go AMD A64
$190-$230 for CPU + MB combo -> go AMD X2 at $240
>$240 see dual-core recommendations
That IMO sums up the whole Desktop PC market as of now. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - link$190-$230 for CPU + MB combo -> go AMD X2 at $240
should be:
$190-$230 for CPU + MB combo -> go AMD X2 3800+ at $200 Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkThe prices are Newegg based. Reply
Shintai - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkAnand, can you test the 65nm K8 with lower res in games and a broader selection of games so we can more truely see the difference?
If these numbers hold water, then 65nm K8s is a disaster in terms of gaming performance. Reply
mongoosesRawesome - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkI'd be interested in seeing these same performance/watt graphs using the 965 chipset. The 680i is a power hog. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkThe same power hog is 590SLI for AMD.
Actually 965 vs. RD580 would hurt Intel even more ... So, go figure. Reply
Schugy - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkBeing able to sell more chips is not an argument for consumers but for AMD. Brisbane is not like Prescott - AMD has done a good job. Further development is needed but first 65nm units are running and are the basis for new architectures with increased transistor count. Reply
Yoshi911 - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkHey all, I know that Socket 939 is obselete now but I think It'd be awesome if they'd make a 939 65nm core.. I still have my Opteron 144 at 3.1ghz on my Lanparty board and would love to see a core I could update to before the nextgen AMD achatecture makes it out.
Anyone know if this is a possibilty?? Reply
Spoelie - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkget a 165 for 150$, overclock it to at least 2.8ghz and you have fx62 like performance
that's the best thing you will ever get on socket 939 I'm afraid, now and in the future. Reply
peldor - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkPractically, it's never gonna happen. The market wouldn't be worth the effort. Reply
OcHungry - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkI don't understand why anyone or any review expect stellar overclocking or performance from these 65nm's?
Did AMD promise any? No. AMD promised a transition to 65nm and on time. That's what we all should expect and appreciate the successful transition.
Do you remember the first batch of Intel's 65nm Core 2's? It was not as good as what you see today. Frankly I think AMD did much better in 65nm than Intel back then, and this first release is giving Core 2 due's matured chip a run for the money. After all the review here clearly shows AMD is on tract w/ 65nm's performance per watt and energy consumption. Don't forget its still K8 architecture competing w/ the latest and the greatest of Intel's.
IntelUser2000 - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - link
Do you remember the first batch of Intel's 65nm Core 2's? It was not as good as what you see today. Frankly I think AMD did much better in 65nm than Intel back then, and this first release is giving Core 2 due's matured chip a run for the money. After all the review here clearly shows AMD is on tract w/ 65nm's performance per watt and energy consumption. Don't forget its still K8 architecture competing w/ the latest and the greatest of Intel's.
Which first batches?? The ones XS has been receiving far before the official Core 2 Duo release?? What's the OC that AT got??
X6800 went from 2.93GHz to 3.6GHz with default voltage. On a very good air cooler and voltage increased, it reached 4.0GHz.
E6700: 2.667GHz to 3.4 default, 3.9 highest
E6600: 4.0GHz highest
X6800 stock cooler highest: 3.4GHz
Tomshardware: X6800 to 3.46GHz
Xbitlabs: X6800 to 3.4GHz, 3.6GHz with +voltage
Brisbane 5000+
2.6GHz to 2.925GHz, on stock cooler, 1.475V.
It's not that bad for Brisbane IMO. It seems more like an architectural limitation than process or thermal limitation. Core 2 Duo still has ways to go and roadmaps sort of reflect it. Though the increase in L2 access latencies may mean it was done to increase the clock speed potential. Reply
peldor - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkGoing to 65nm shouldn't move you backwards in performance though. There's no excuse for that from the consumer's POV unless the price also goes down (certainly a possibility if yields are good). Reply
ydoucensor - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkcould the increase in latencies have something to do with "trusted" computing and the need for attestation? Reply
fitten - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkPure speculation, but the L2 latency increase may be a result of work going into the three level cache controller logic getting ready for K8L or whatever it's going to be. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkMy thoughts exactly. Reply
Spoelie - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkThis is not the first time this has happened, it may be easy to forget, but do you guys remember the thoroughbred?
Thoroughbred A was the first 180nm to 130nm shrink and had a hard time reaching the speeds the mature 180nm cores were getting. It wasn't till AMD added another layer to the core (Thoroughbred B) that we saw the expected speedups from a die shrink. Reply
PetNorth - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkAnand:
Why don't you set manually the voltage, to know really what's the improvement with 0.65 transition?
1.30v to compare it with 5000+ 90nm, and 1.25v to compare it with 4600+ EE 0.90nm.
It would be a good thing IMO. Reply
yyrkoon - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkThere are already people who believe that odd numbered multipliers offer worse performance compared to even numbered multipliers. I cant help but wonder why AMD chose to start implementing floating point multipliers now. The first thing that comes to mind, is maybe to refine their pricing ? Although, I've never really noticed much performance (if any) difference using odd vs even numbered multipliers, I can not help but wonder if floating point multipliers will play a factor in performance. Reply
Regs - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkAMD has been stepping in baby steps in their innovation merits. Ever since the IMC and the enhancements from K7 to K8 it seems like they improve little by little. I hope this gives them a rude awakening to how competitive the market can or could be in future. If they did it before they can do it again.
As for the transition to 65nm, it was no surprise that these parts could not over clock very well. The K8 is showing its age and I think there are no more ways you can breathe life back into it especially when Core Duo is out in the market. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkWhy awekening, and why rude? The fact is AMD kept PARITY with intel on power AND performance inthe lower end with 90nm!!! part with Intel beeing at 65nm for a year allredy!
In other words, When AMD's 90nm process is FAR better that Intel's ever was. Same happened with 130nm. Two words: SOI,APM.
No confusion, all thi means no one should avaluate AMD vs. Intel on process_used base. Simply put, as of now(at stock) Intel rules on perf&power while AMD rules on idle_power and price(up to 4200+/E6300 combo). Reply
IntelUser2000 - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - link
The impact of higher voltages on power consumption also applies to Intel as well. As you will see in our power comparison, in a number of cases our Core 2 Duo E6300 required even more power than the E6600 we tested last time. The reason being that our E6300 sample runs at a core voltage of 1.325V vs. 1.2625V for our E6600 sample. Just things to keep in mind as you look at the power results over the next few pages.
Intel bins Core 2 Duo by power consumption. Reply
xsilver - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkjust to clarify further; all e6600's will have lower stock voltages than e6400's and all e6400's will have lower stock voltages than e6300's?
at both idle and load?
how successful are the conroes at undervolting? Reply
Accord99 - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkPretty good, my week 25 E6600 is stable at 2.6GHz/1.1v (My P5B-dlx doesn't go any lower) with dual-P95. The heat output is easily cooled passively by a Scythe Ninja.
Here's a thread, one person has a E6600 that does 2.4@/~1v
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php...">http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php... Reply
blackbrrd - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkI have seen a E6600 running at 1,0v at load... It was obviously very cool running :)
My E6400 is running at 1,15v at idle (2133MHz) and 1,25v at load (2133MHz)
Power saving features were off in both instances... Reply
haugland - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkAMD win in one aspect...
I you really consider power consumption to be important, it is much more important to look at idle power consumption than power consumption at full load. Most business PCs idle a lot of the time, and AMDs CPUs are much better at saving power at idle.
EIST was designed for P4, and for a 3+ GHz P4 it makes sense to drop the multiplier to 6. However when the E6300 normally run at a multiplier of 7, you don't get much of a power saving by dropping the multiplier to 6. AMD C'n'Q allows for much lower settings. Reply
MartinT - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkAMD - Best CPU at doing nothing.
This seems to be AMD's new mantra, no wonder given how hopelessly behind in performance and performance/Watt they are. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkNicely said.
Or better:
CPU using the least power while doing nothing... Reply
DigitalFreak - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkLOL Reply
Beenthere - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkI doubt many PC enthusiasts place much importance on CPU power consumption. If they did Intel would never have sold any P4 chips. With Video cards drawing 200+ watts per card, a 65 nano AMD chip is a sweet piece.
From my perspective, this is the first AMD 65 nano chips and like most process drops there is little performance gain just in lowering the nano size. AMD has a lot in the pipeline and as it arrives I suspect PC enthusiasts will be quite satisfied with both the CPU options and performance.
It should be pretty obvious that 99.9% of the market doesn't need faster CPUs, dual cores, quad cores, etc. until we get a decent O/S that can use these CPU features and full 64-bit function. How friggin long will we have to wait for quality 64-bit software to arrive? That is something that would help PC performance significantly, yet we've been waiting two years and the software folks have delivered almost nothing. Reply
Sh0ckwave - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkYou're right, enthusiasts don't care about power consumption at all. We care about performance and overclocking ability.
The average user does not need a faster CPU.
Why doesn't Anandtech write articles for enthusiasts anymore? Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkAlso, many enthusiasts work at IT depts making decisions what architecture to go for.
I mean, for 100s/1000s PCs deployment... An believe me, there, power IS taken into account. Reply
Final Hamlet - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkQuote: I doubt many PC enthusiasts place much importance on CPU power consumption.
If they did Intel would never have sold any P4 chips.
That is where you are wrong. Say it after me: Million-dollar-marketing-campaign.
Not the best product wins, but the best advertised.
Think back to P4-times: Some average I-know-that-I-have-to-press-the-big-button-to-make-my-compie-start-Joe would enter a big (online) store like DELL where his only choice was a P4 - end of selection.
Asked why he should buy it he would receive something like this: It has 3 REAL GHz, other manufacturers have _only_ about 2GHz. And then he would buy.
PS I'm no AMD-fanboy. One has to clearly admit that Intel did a marvellous job with it's Core2. Only reason to buy is aforementioned power consumption in idle (my PC is idle 90% of the time) und the nice low price.
Too strange. If you read hardware sites you could come to the conclusion that there are no single core CPUs anymore. Reply
feelingshorter - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkLooking at those benchmarks, I think Intel won based on per/watt performance. AMD had lower watt usage but also lower performance. Given that a cpu can work harder, then be idle, i see per watt performance as the most important thing. I would have expected AMD to do better, but they did not come through. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkNo offense, but the moment one takes into account the fact of average PC spending >90% of time at idle, well, C2D eats X2's dust.
From energy efficiency perspective, of course. Reply
Accord99 - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkOnly if the C2D gets paired with a hotter chipset. The P965 motherboards tend to use 10-20W less on idle and load. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkRD580 is even lower than P965 ... NF i680 and NF 590 are both power hogs.
They are not ideal (as well as 8800GTX) for power-comparison but they are BOTH pretty hot in their respective markets. Reply
JackPack - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkWhere did you pull that "90%" figure out of? If a PC is idling more than 90% of the time without going into standby or hibernate, the user is an idiot.
Hardly any PCs operate at pure idle. No real-time antivirus scan, no file indexing in the background, no email autochecking, no IE7 open with at least one Flash ad, etc. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkWell, how would you like Your PC to standby(not to mention hibernate) while typing or listening to MP3's ???
At these moments (most common usage of a PC BTW) the average CPU use is 1% to 5%.
... ;-)
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkSorry fo no reading the second sentence, the first one was too crazy to continue reading back then ... So"
Wwhat is "pure idle" ? CPU is able to go between C-states in (micro-to-mili)seconds, How fast can you type?
AV checking? when you type? to check whether one is coding some exploit? :)
Backgroung file-idexing? no thanks, I prefer on-MY-demand search to on OS's demand.
Email-autocheck? done in 0.1s at 5% CPU used, once in 5 minutes...
IE7? no, thanks, not required for Windows Update...
Flash ad open? no, thanks, flash enabled only for reasonable sites or the ones requiring it(a few). Also, an usuall Flash is only up to 10% K8 core at 1000MHz
You may ask, why X2/C2D then when no background BS? Well, as of now I'm pretty happy with my Q1 install of Win2k on A1.66/512M/R9200/dualUXGA backed up by ~ 2TB NAS(with 3G P4C :). The system is more responsive than nearby mate's X2/1G with all that "necessary" bloat you mentioned.
Me having loaded 50+ webpages and 5-10 active apps a common sight... Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkNow I figure, maybe, maybe, the average PC has become so bloated and unmaintained as to not even be able to put CPU's to Sleep states?
I have not seen this except outrageously malwared machives yet. However my sample size may be unrepresentative a bit too much.
If it is so, to abandon PC and return to calculus at primary may be a good idea. Reply
JackPack - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkThat's not idling.
Nice strawman, BTW. Reply
mino - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkWell, wrote "90% of time" ... did not write how big the chunks of time are - they vary pretty much from tens of microseconds to tens of minutes.
P.S. that post of mine from 10:19 was written before yours 10:13. Reply
JackPack - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - link...and AMD wants to accelerate their transition to 45nm? Maybe they have a magic lamp somewhere in their Sunnyvale office.
Seems like the increase in L2 latency might be a contingency plan for GHz or more cache, in the event Agena doesn't meet its Q3 target. Reply
Locutus465 - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkI upgraded to an S939 X2 earlier this year, so I'm going to be out of the serious upgrade market for a while (might pick up a better CPU or graphics card that's about it). So personally I'm waiting for K8-L and co-processors to see how things shake out. I do have to say I had hoped better from AMD, but after 3 years of dominance I think a stumble like this is just what they need to get them back on the war path of innovation. Reply
peldor - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkAMD's vision of coprocessors is 2009 stuff. You'll be out of the market a long time if you're waiting on that. Reply
theteamaqua - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkman i hope this thing overclocks like conroe.... otherwise no one will get quad father
but i already have E6400 @ 3.4GHz ...
might get Q6600 , Q6400 or Yorksfield or Altair ... ill what see what happens Reply
clairvoyant129 - Thursday, December 21, 2006 - linkRight here,
Nothing special though.
Better to stick with the 90nm X2 then this piece of junk.


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subset: commoncrawl


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Gigabyte Shows off Simplified "3D BIOS" Interface for X79 UEFIby Anand Lal Shimpi on 11/4/2011 10:52 AM EST
- Posted in
- Intel
- Gigabyte
- Motherboards
- Sandy Bridge
- Sandy Bridge E
27 Comments
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Guspaz - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkWe're starting to see the first results of what UEFI enables, and board manufacturers are finally starting to experiment with the bounds of what they can do with a UEFI interface. The first UEFI interfaces were largely entrancement of the traditional BIOS interface, and now we're starting to see them get creative.
I look forward to seeing what board makers can do with UEFI, not just in terms of the interface, but what other features they can build around it. Reply
gevorg - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkWill the new Gigabyte BIOS still have no adjustments for case fan? Reply
CharonPDX - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkJust because it's graphical doesn't mean it has to be UEFI, I had graphical conventional BIOS systems back in the mid '90s.
And just because it's UEFI doesn't mean it has to be graphical. Intel has been using a UEFI-based configuration interface for years now on their desktop boards, it's just plain text and looks a lot like conventional BIOS. Reply
mfenn - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkYou mean UEFI != Graphical BIOS? Reply
CharonPDX - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkD-oh! Yes. Reply
B3an - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkAnyone know if Ivy Bridge CPU's will later have a variant that works on X79 boards? Otherwise this will have no upgrade path. It's already taken forever to get this platform out. It used to be the high end came out first, not WAY later. And Ivy Bridge isn't that far off for the mainstream now... so will Intel later support the high end/X79 with IB or be massive c***s as usual and make it so that we have to buy another new board for that? Reply
Ytterbium - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkNo it won't because Ivy Bridge will be replacement for the current i3,5,7 Sandybridge chips. That said there should be an Ivy Bridge-E ala X78 is for Sandybridge-E but as you say it will be way later. Reply
B3an - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkYeah thats what i mean, some sort of Ivy Bridge-E version of the chip for X79. Is there any news or conformation on this? Because i've seen nothing about it and dont really want to buy a dead end platform. Reply
OoklaTheMok - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkSo how is this supposed to make using the BIOS more intuitive? For those who are not intimately knowledgable about motherboard layout, this actually makes the BIOS even more difficult to use. I wouldn't even expect my recently adult children to have a clue about clicking on the SATA ports, let alone being able to identify them.
And for those who are more BIOS knowledgable, this doesn't seem to make it any easier to make changes to the BIOS as you would have to "go through" the 3D interface to get to the actual settings, when going directly to the Advanced Mode would likely be faster in that case.
If Gigabyte wanted to make it more intuitive, they would have created a task based interface for the common actions that a less seasoned user would need to do.
But I get it... This is just a gimmick by Gigabyte to differentiate themselves but without providing any real benefit or improvement. Reply
Nihility - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkGigabyte is redefining computer interfaces!
For instance, a 2D picture is now called 3D!!!
WOW Reply
Menty - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkBut will Gigabyte finally be offering genuinely useful BIOS-based fan control? You know, like a lot of their competitors have for years? I can understand that easier is better, but build in the fundamentals first guys, then gussy it up. Reply
royalcrown - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - link1. They dont know what the slots do, or what goes in them.
2. They dont know what the settings do even if they know what plugs in.
3. They don't buy GIGABYTE, ASUS, etc...
....That makes the "3D" part a waste of resources Reply
B3an - Sunday, November 06, 2011 - link....Err do you REALLY think the average consumer will be buying these boards?? Stupid much?
This is a X79 board, Einstein. You know what type of people these boards are aimed at? Enthusiasts and overclockers. I think they're going to know what parts do what. Reply
brucek2 - Sunday, November 06, 2011 - linkIf you believe they're going to know what parts do what, wouldn't you also have to believe they know how to use the traditional BIOS menu? The one with a ton more maturity, less complexity, less resource requirement, and less room to pointlessly vary setting location across different vendors? Reply
Iketh - Monday, November 07, 2011 - linkThe enthusiast population is not stagnant. Before you were an enthusiast, it goes without saying that you were not an enthusiast. This feature, at the least, will cater to those that want to become enthusiasts.
You are not the only human on the planet. The world does not revolve around you. etc etc etc etc cliche cliche etc etc Reply
poohbear - Monday, November 07, 2011 - linkhuh? so because we're enthusiasts we should be stuck with a hideous & cluttery BIOS screen that's all 6 bit text? No thank you! i've been an enthusiast for 14 years, but this UEFI bios is long overdue! I dont miss the DOS days, Windows cleared up everything and made it much easier to navigate around and get straight to what i want! i expect the same to happen with BIOS screens! why should i be stuck w/ 6bit text like back in the EVGA days??? its 2011 and i have a 5870 graphics card and hexa -core cpu, but my bios looks like its from 1985. Get with the times!!! Reply
Th-z - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkUEFI is intended to replace aging BIOS, is it not? The "F" in UEFI means firmware, in all other devices, firmware is conceptually equal to traditional BIOS in non-Mac PC. If so, logically people shouldn't call it "UEFI BIOS", it's either BIOS or UEFI. If it's UEFI, the title should just be "3D interface for X79 UEFI". Reply
Vinny DePaul - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkshould be done llong time ago Reply
brucek2 - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkLots of pixels depicting computer components are not going to simplify the fundamental complexity of BIOS configuration, which comes down to understanding what the parts of the computer are, how they can be configured, and why you'd use one setting vs. another. Putting up a huge detail picture of a CPU is not going to help someone find the best clock and voltage setting for it.
When you need to be in these settings at all, what you want the minimal amount of graphical obfuscation, application complexity, and vendor-level variance in coming up with new ways and places to tuck away the setting you need. Sometimes less really is more and I'd argue that text menus for BIOS settings are a prime example.
And if next year we're reading that someone has gone even further with a true 3D app that looks great but only requires you to be wearing certain specifically compatible 3D glasses and have a working IR emitter to sync those glasses -- well then we'll know they've really lost their perspective. Reply
mayaw - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkIt's ashame that I have had too many of their motherboards die on me in the past. Even though they did repair and replace them. I did get them back they than went into the garbage can again so I wont ever suggest or purchase another one again. Reply
rtfg - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - link
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jewie27 - Sunday, November 06, 2011 - linkEveryone pause at 2:42 in the video to see what they tried to blur out. It's so dumb, there's nothing to hide. It says 3600.92 mhz, 100 mhz base clock, 1333.67 mhz for the memory. Reply
jimhsu - Sunday, November 06, 2011 - linkSad to see the potential of UEFI squandered on pretty "3D interfaces". Here's what I want a UEFI-based interface to be able to do:
- Ability to support multiple profiles that can be recalled with a single click. E.g one for OC benching, one for everyday use, one for low power undervolting, etc.
- Customizable, saveable interface. Don't use overclocking? Hide it. Want to experiment with memory timings? Move it up in the list to save keystrokes.
- Integrated benchmarking functionality. Can be something as simple as a rudimentary SuperPI or Prime95 like thing. Can be fancy but not necessary.
- Much better OS integration. Again, in terms of profiles, customization.
- Considerations for notebook/tablet uses. Touch interface. Altering settings / boot priority / etc based on presence of AC power, battery, docking station.
- Visual aesthetics. Yes, they do in fact matter. Color and shading to improve contrast. Logical grouping of functionality (without having memory timings on this screen, FSB on another one, TurboBoost on yet another one).
That will truly bring BIOS into the modern age with out this "pretty stuff" in the way. Reply
dfsd - Sunday, November 06, 2011 - link======== http://www.hapous.com/ ======= Reply
fdfsxcvdcfdh - Monday, November 07, 2011 - link
ONLINE STOR good shopping Reply
poohbear - Monday, November 07, 2011 - linkWhat are the chances of them releasing BIOS updates for all their mobos to look like this? anyhope my old AM2+ gigabyte mobo will ge this UEFI? Reply
Squidward - Monday, November 07, 2011 - linkAm I seriously seeing a handgun design built into a motherboard? Reply


text:
Clear ^6 for Mason Stains
Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:48 PM
F-38 frit 32%
Kona F-4 Spar 26%
Silica 19%
Whiting 13%
The formula looks quite old. F-38 is and odd frit by Fusion Co. that contains about 18% strontium carbonate. The closest Ferro frit is 3292, but it only has 4% strontium and other components of 3292 are not close. I personally don't think that amount of strontium is going to influence the colors very much.
For the other components of F-38 the Ferro frit 3124 is fairly close, but it does not contain strontium. When I get around to testing this formula, and to avoid finding F-38, I will use 3124 and test with and without about 10% added strontium carbonate to see if it indeed affects the colors significantly.
Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:43 PM
- Westpost likes this
Contemporary Fine Colored Porcelain
" If a sufficient number of people are different, no one has to be normal "
Fredrick Bachman
Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:01 PM
So Clear (^6, from Michael Sherrill)
Ferro Frit 3124 32.2
Feldspar NC-4 (Minspar 200) 25.8
Silica 19.4
Whiting 12.9
Kaolin -- EPK 9.6
Total 99.9
Yeah, recipe sounds familiar.
- Westpost likes this
Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:36 PM
basic ones I've used for mason stains are ...
50% gerstley
20% potash spar
10% whiting
10% flint
10% epk
25% Soda spar
15% flint
10% ball clay
10% whiting.
and ...
70% gerstley
20% flint
10% epk
it doesn't matter much which clear you use as long as you avoid glazes with tin in them. if you need it more opaque ... throw some zircopax in it .... but it generally makes your glaze look like plastic.
Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:08 AM
Looks like at least two formulas are using 3124 which should be a good flux for the clear base.
I'm familiar with the "plastic" look and don't like it.
Great comments, thanks.
Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:18 AM
You mention the "Plastic Look", but also I find most ^6 electric formulas for transparent glazes to be far too glossy.
The clear formulas in reduction I'm accustomed to seem more toward satin, but still quite transparent.
Here is a formula that fits the too glossy and plastic look, but very good in all other aspects.
Silica -20
G-200 Spar-20
What do you think about this?
(BTW, I've been following your post and find your comments to be right on.
However, I think you are shooting yourself in the foot with that avatar photo?)
Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:08 AM
Neil Estrick
Kiln Repair Tech
L&L Kilns Distributor
Owner, Neil Estrick Gallery, LLC
Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:11 AM
if it turns out to not be fluid enough, you can easily tweak it by adjusting the flint and kaolin down slightly to increase the frit. especially since there is so much silica in the glaze that will raise the melting temp.
And by plastic, I mean plastic, not glossy. Glossiness can be made soft buttery matte with dolomite ... zircopax makes glazes look like cheap formed plastic in high quantities. So, i normally keep it in 5% max quantities since all you are looking for is to make it opaque, not absolutely white for a base. If you were going for just oxide use, I would suggest tin since you can get it to break and it does some fun stuff with oxides (raspberry red is chrome and tin in a glaze) ... but with the cost and ability to change colorants like certain stains (reds in particular) a tiny amount of zircopax will let you do things like be able to layer more subtle colors like blues, greens and reds over harsh colors like blacks, dark blues and browns without watching them just fade away.
For example, if you look at the attached image following glaze is ...
Emily's Purple - Opaque Blue/Purple
Potash Feld 36.60
Gerstley Borate 19.40
Ball Clay 11.80
Talc 15.10
Silica 10.80
Dolomite 6.50
Zircopax 10.00
Cobalt ox 3.00
Total 113.20
This glaze has both zircopax and dolomite. The small dose of dolomite makes the glaze that soft buttery matte. With the higher melt and the higher amount of zircopax do you see how the glaze doesn't break on edges even if it does move and it looks more like melted plastic on top of the clay? that is the zircopax at play.
but ... with that glaze there, take the cobalt ox out and you can easily have so soft buttery white base to add mason stains to, though I would probably flip the percentages of feldspar and gerstley ... But I like my glazes with a little more movement.
Attached Files
Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:12 AM
Mason stains have several requirements that need to be followed to get the most accurate color development. See the reference chart HERE. Some need zinc, some don't, some need a specific amount of calcium, others don't, some go so hot, others don't. There's a lot of variation in how they behave. So start with that, and adjust your glaze as needed to work with whatever stain you're using.
oh and this. Good advice Neile.
Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:41 AM
I LOVE dolomite!
Neil Estrick
Kiln Repair Tech
L&L Kilns Distributor
Owner, Neil Estrick Gallery, LLC
Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:08 PM
Oh and dolomite ... geez, what I wouldn't do without dolomite.
Posted 27 April 2013 - 02:12 PM
I think I did not make it very clear that the base glaze for Mason stain additions up to 10% was meant to transparent.
My compliant is that most formulas for transparent and semi-transparent are very glossy to the point of distraction.
In reduction the effect is different.
The comment about Wollastonite having so much silica could be a glossy factor because apparently there is enough flux to produce a good melt.
And, yes I too like a glaze that moves a bit to bring life to the piece.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:20 PM
Neil Estrick
Kiln Repair Tech
L&L Kilns Distributor
Owner, Neil Estrick Gallery, LLC
Posted 27 April 2013 - 04:40 PM
Would you fellows care to quote your favorite dolomite mat for large cone 6?
That would be most kind.
Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:17 PM
you guys have just answered the question posed months ago about a clear glaze for covering green without going grey! the mason chart is spectacular, is it available in print?
Posted 04 May 2013 - 06:19 PM
If you don't need buckets of it, I highly recommend the Amaco zinc free clear. Colors stay true.
I don't have any experience with Mason Stains, but I have used Amaco's zinc-free clear (HF-9) - on white ^6 clay it's slightly off-white (kind of "antique-y" looking).
I'd love a ^6 clear that lets the whiteness of the clay come through, but I'm not sure I'm ready to make my own glazes yet. :/
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AMD's Radeon HD 6450: UVD3 Meets The HTPCby Ryan Smith on 4/7/2011 12:01 AM EST
47 Comments
Back to Article
lukechip - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkIn the April 2011 Video Card MSRP list, you've omitted the Radeon HD 6950 2GB. Given that this was the first 6950, and in my mind, the 'real' 6950, why is it not listed ? Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkThe MSRP list isn't mean to be a definitive list of every card at every price point; but still, that was a rather silly omission. I've since added it. Reply
ImSpartacus - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkAlso missed the GTX 590, but I understand that the purpose of the chart was to show the 6450's position, not to be completely and ultimately definitive. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkNo, that would be because I'm an idiot.
The chart was taken from the GTX 550 Ti article, which predated the 590 (which is why it's not there). Reply
GeorgeH - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkThis might be a great HTPC card for an existing box, but unless AMD has seriously screwed up I can't see this card being terribly attractive for much of anything once Llano ships. Reply
ImSpartacus - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkI would've liked to see some discussion on that topic. Llano will probably be pitiful on the CPU end, but if they can cram a strong GPU into the product, these $50 GPUs will eventually become extinct. Reply
starfalcon - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkI suppose with Llano and Ivy Bridge, discrete graphics for HTPC use will essentially be extinct.
For gaming I wonder if they will be willing to release any low end graphics that can be beaten by IGPs, if not, then I wonder what the lowest end cards they will release will be. Reply
vol7ron - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkI agree, unless they will be used in other ways. I'm not sure what max resolution IGPs can support. Also, I'm sure if you use the HTPC as more of a PC than HT, you will probably need the additional parallel processing (or dedicated GPU).
All-in-all these cards remind me of dedicated cards from the 90s :) Reply
starfalcon - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkI know IGPs can do 2560x1600.
With Sandy Bridge I think it only can do it with display port but besides that 1920x1200 with HDMI/DVI. Shouldn't be a problem.
What will you need the additional parallel processing for?
Or dedicated GPU?
Sandy Bridge supports quick sync and Llano should have lots of processing capabilities, Ivy Bridge should have more and more stuff also. Reply
vol7ron - Sunday, April 10, 2011 - linkSay you're playing a game, want to put it on pause and watch some TV, or have multiple display setups and want to watch TV while playing a game. Add a DVR capture card and you'll be need more CPU and GPU processing.
I'm just not sure how great the performance would be. Especially assuming you wanted to attach this to a 46"+ display. It might be "capable", but we all know that word is very misleading and quality is hard define when you don't see it with your own eyes. Reply
veri745 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - link"... and this is what happens when the 5570 and GT 430."
Typo or unfinished sentence? Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - link"Even a slight discount on a more expensive product blows the entire lineup out of the water, and this is what happens with the 5570 and GT 430."
In other words, the 5570 and GT 430 with only a minor discount on pricing blows away the 6450, at least from a pure performance perspective. Power and potentially HTPC use still could go to the 6450. Reply
789427 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkSo you buy an APU - you get stunning graphics.
You bought an Intel CPU - the extra $50 is what you pay to get a great CPU and HD graphics.
Honestly, this is for joe soap and his HD monitor and will probably be branded as such!
cb Reply
ImSpartacus - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkIt might also be nice for a productivity Eyefinity setup. I can't wait for AT to get a multi-monitor setup in their lab. Reply
khimera2000 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkI cant wait till anandtech gets a multimonitor setup. then i can stop skimming the video card reviews :D
In this modern age EVERY video card being released has the ability to drive at least two displays, and with Eyefinity, and Nvidia's offering I consider reviews incomplete unless they use ALL the technology there ment to drive. as of this moment this has not happened here. without the support of this I can only assume... and I hate assuming when im reading a review.
As it stands, without the ability to test Eyefinity and similar set ups I dont think this place will ever be a final deal maker. and that's upsetting because if they cant get three monitors in for a normal test bed, we will probably never see reviews on how well other displays work in eyefinity.
considering that the 5xxx came out in 2009, two years have passed since that fan fair (give or take), there really is no excuse not to have it right now. Reply
Springfield45 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkI enjoy the tests on low end and low power graphics cards. One query though. Is the Radeon HD 5670 such an rare beast that no one has performance information? The HD 4670 was a wonderful upgrade for people that had OEM systems without the power supply to drive faster cards and it was recognized as that and reviewed quite well. Why was it's successor so ignored? Will there even be a successor in the 6xxx series? Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkWe keep a rolling database of performance results for GPU articles. The last time we did a low-end GPU article was with the GT 430 6 months ago, so we effectively didn't have any recent results for anything below a GTS 450. So for everything here below that, we had to rush to get results over a 2 day period. The 5670 was excluded because it's not particularly close in performance or pricing to the 6450. Everything we needed to say about how AMD had faster cards was covered by the 5570, which uses the same Redwood GPU anyhow.
Anyhow, the 5670 does have a successor in Turks. Turks hasn't made retail yet so I can't say a whole lot about it, but its configured very similarly to Redwood. If and when it gets a retail release, you can expect to see a comparison to the 5670. Reply
Springfield45 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkCheers!
I did not mean to sound as if it was a problem that card was omitted from this test. I just found it odd that it was never reviewed at all on Anandtech (and very few other places as well) since the 4670 had made such a big splash.
Your articles are always on the top of my list a resources and I thank you for them! Reply
Taft12 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkThe 5670 WAS reviewed on Anandtech:
and since this review compares the 6450 closely to the 5570, a look at the 5570 review will give you an idea of where the 5670 bar would be in this article's graphs:
The 5670 is the fastest card AMD or Nvidia ever released that didn't require a PCIE connector, although since Ryan not-so-subtly referred to a 6000-series replacement to 5670, that won't be the case much longer! Reply
DLimmer - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkNot quite true.
There's a 5750 that is "green" and doesn't require a PCIE connector.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8... Reply
Andrew Rockefeller - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkI'm a bit psyched at the prospect of a passive 6XXX series card. Rumour has it that Llano will be hybrid crossfire capable with such a card. It is a piece in the puzzle for my ultimate 'completely passive' yet still decently powered HTPC build.. hopefully coming to my loungeroom sometime Q3. Reply
EmmetBrown - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkFor the image quality. JPG introduces more distortion. Reply
DanNeely - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkMore video ports. I have 3 monitors (2x20, 1x30); and since that's not an eyefinity supported setup I stuck a 5450 in next to my 5870 to run the 3rd screen. It wasn't any more expensive than a DP-DVI adapter and came without the compatibility/reliability nightmare the adapter came with. Reply
casteve - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkA lower power way to get multi monitor support. Catalyst doesn't downclock the memory if you have more than 1 monitor plugged into a video card. On a 5770, that's 30W extra when idling or doing any 2D (non-gaming) function. Plug a 2nd monitor into a 6450 and lower power consumption by ~20W.
Ryan - will there be an addendum to cover the HTPC tests? Can you add power use during some typical apps (playing 1080P content, etc)? Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkYes, there will be an addendum. Ganesh (our HTPC/media streamer guru) will be looking at a 6450 in an HTPC setup. I can't promise what tests he'll run though, so you would have to talk to him. Reply
bobbozzo - Tuesday, April 12, 2011 - linkIn the HTPC review, I would like to see a comparison of using the hardware features for deinterlacing, deblocking, etc., compared to software such as ffmpeg.
thanks! Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - link" AMD's previous low-end product, the 80SP Radeon HD 5450, is effectively matched by Intel's HD 3000"
Huh? To get the HD3000 you have to spend some $200 on a cpu, not to mention a new motherboard in 100% of situations. With a $50 6450 you can buy a $50 Athlon II and have better graphics for less than half the total price. Any intel solution in this price range is going to be stripped down vs the HD3000. Celeron B810 for example. That chip is $90 but its gpu has been gutted. A $35 5450 and a $50 X2-245 together would ker-stomp the celeron B810, for less money too. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkTake the statement as forward looking rather than focused on GPU upgrades to existing systems. If you have an Athlon II and you wanted decent graphics, chances are you're already running at least a 5570, which as we point out is significantly faster than the 6450. If on the other hand you buy a new system later this year and it comes with a Sandy Bridge CPU, would you really want to pay an extra $50 to "upgrade" to the HD 5450? No, you wouldn't. You would want a card that is faster and offers more, and this is where the 6450 comes in. On the AMD side, you also have Llano coming out, which will be quite a bit faster on the GPU side than the HD 5450. Again, why would AMD continue to have their low-end discrete GPU lag behind modern IGPs? Reply
DjPete2008 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkWhen you get a chance to do more testing, I would love to know if it is would be a worthwhile upgrade from a Radeon HD 5450, especially in terms of power consumption. I currently have a passively cooled 5450 in my HP Proliant Microserver, running as a NAS / HTPC. (P.S. - It would be awesome to see a review on the Microserver as well).
Would the 6450 be able to fit in the required power envelope of my system (the x16 PCI Express slot is apparently rated at a maximum of 25W, according to the marking on the motherboard)? The motherboard might well be able to go a bit higher than 25W, but I'd rather let someone else find that out :) Reply
Taft12 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkWhat? All your questions are answered in this article. The TDP rating of the 6450 is 40% more at idle and load than the 5450. The TDP is 27W. Reply
ET - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkIf you're worried about crossing the 25W line you can always slightly underclock it. That said, unless you intend to use it for gaming, folding or another such heavy task, it shouldn't come close to 25W, and from your description above it sounds like you're not planning such things. Reply
DjPete2008 - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkAccording to this - http://www.rage3d.com/reviews/video/amd_hd6450_lau... - the idle power draw is actually less than the 5450.
So it would probably be compatible with my system, and as ET said, I could also underclock it. Now to wait and see what retail products get released. Reply
Wave_Fusion - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkSince the Turks architecture is what my 6770M is based on, I'm looking forward to see how the desktop versions do. It might not be as impressive in the desktop world, but as mobility cards go its not far from the top. Reply
evolucion8 - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkIt is a good review, but I think that it might be more productive doing video quality analysis instead of gaming performance as no one will buy such low end card for gaming anyways. Or at least two or three gaming performance charts and the rest with video quality and performance analysis, good product overall, but in terms of gaming performance, I think that the GT 430 is a better option. Reply
Mishera - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkI second that.
I've been thinking about building a htpc using Amd's e-350, and was wondering if something like this would be useful from a feature/video quality perspective, or if the apu would be adequate on it's own. Reply
ET - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkI always find gaming potential interesting, but I think that 1680x1050 maximum quality with 4x AA isn't. I don't really need putting this in the perspective of all the other cards just to show it's not good for that. I want to know what it does work for. 720p would be a good testing point for an HTPC. 1280x1024 and 1024x768 aren't really in use these days.
It might be a good idea for Anandtech to develop a low end gaming benchmark, with game and setting selections which are more useful to indicate the suitability of such low end hardware for some gaming. I know Jarred is working on a low end gaming article, but I'd love this to be put into standard reviews of such hardware. Reply
7Enigma - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkThe majority of non-gamers (those that would probably buy this card not for HTPC), are on 17-19" monitors (ie those that come with the Dell/HP) computer and so I would argue that the 1280X1024 is likely the MOST important resolution to test.
Still I agree with the above poster that the game tests are more of a formality and the focus should be on the video quality and performance analysis (specifically power draw doing common HTPC tasks not a load benchmark with crysis). Reply
strikeback03 - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkUnless that Dell/HP is pre-2005, it is probably not not 1280x1024. The various widescreen resolutions with between 768 and 900 pixels of vertical resolution have been more common for quite a while at those screen sizes. Reply
ET - Thursday, April 07, 2011 - linkLow end Llano chips will have 160 cores, but slower and with slower memory. That'd put it around HD 3000 or even under (and sometimes higher), but still over HD 2000. Reply
silverblue - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkTough call. Llano will have access to a dual channel memory bus of up to DDR3-1866 which theoretically should provide more bandwidth than the 6450, although it will have to share this with the rest of the system. Even so, this should still be plenty enough to beat HD 3000 regardless of what Llano model is in use, assuming the fastest memory is used.
I believe Llano's true strength will be 720p with AA; even with 400 shader cores it's not going to be a monster and certainly won't be suited for 1080 gaming. Hell, I wouldn't even put my 4830 through that. One thing we really don't know right now is how many texture units and ROPs Llano actually possesses. Reply
ET - Sunday, April 10, 2011 - linkI think that DDR3-1866 is unlikely to be currently used in a budget system. It's still a premium speed. Anyway I was referring to the E2-3250, the budget Llano, which will have (though not announced officially) only DDR3-1600 support and a sub-450MHz clock rate. That puts it at under 60% performance of the Radeon 6450 based on clock speed (I think that memory won't further impact performance), which based on the test results should drop its performance under the HD 3000 in many cases.
The low end A4 chips, which have ~600MHz clocks, 80% of the 6450 (but may be more likely to be affected by memory speed), are more likely to compete well with the HD 3000, but there are still cases in this review where the HD 3000 was over 80% of the 6450 in terms of FPS, so they could lose there.
Anyway, that's not to bash Llano, just trying to get more of an understanding of it. I think it's better to keep expectations low and be pleasantly surprised later than the other way round. Reply
Gungel - Friday, April 08, 2011 - linkJust found this incredible expensive offer on HP's store front:
HP QM229AA Radeon HD6450 512MB DDR3 $129.00
Are they nuts? Reply
aarste - Saturday, April 09, 2011 - linkWould have been nice to see some 23.976 fps tests Reply
Sxotty - Sunday, April 10, 2011 - linkWhy is it a great HTPC card if it is loud? That is one of the worst blemishes for that purpose. The review says it is surprised it is so loud and assumes other models will be quiet. That means that unless you get a passively cooled model you could likely end up with an annoyingly loud card that is completely anathema to the HTPC environment. As such recommending the card for that purpose seems silly without additional disclaimers. Quiet is more important for HTPC than passing all the HQV tests b/c cards always make noise, and only sometimes have to do weird cadences. Reply
Ryan Smith - Monday, April 11, 2011 - linkKeep in mind this is an internal reference design. It won't see the light of day in retail. Retail cards will (for better or worse) have different coolers. Reply
Lolimaster - Monday, April 11, 2011 - linkYou wont find an HD3000 intel IGP on the price range of low end dual core Llano. Hey, you wont even find an HD2000 for the same price xD.
This 160SP Llano should cost around 60-70. More or less what current Athlon II X2 cost. Reply
ch1n4 - Tuesday, April 19, 2011 - linkHi,
Did you have time to make the HTPC relevant tests with the 6450? Additionally it would be very useful to see the difference in performance between the DDR-3 Version and the DDR-5 Version. It's a shame that only the DD3- Version has got a passive cooler. Therefore it would be very important to know if the Radeon 6450-DDR3 is the Perfect HTPC Card, or only the DDR-5 Version? Or none of them and the Radeon 5570 is still the King of HTPC. Reply


text:
Bache pitches Gators past Hampton in regionals
Published: Friday, May 17, 2013 at 8:02 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, May 18, 2013 at 12:06 a.m.
Even though he has two elite starting pitchers, Florida softball coach Tim Walton decided to go with door No. 3 Friday night.
1 p.m. — Florida vs. USF (104.9 FM)
3:30 p.m. — Hampton vs. Ga. Southern
6 p.m. — Florida/USF loser vs. Hampton/Ga. Southern winner
And in her first postseason start, sophomore Alyssa Bache delivered.
The sophomore allowed only two infield hits and Florida's bats came alive in the third inning, as the Gators opened NCAA regional play with a 7-1 win over Hampton. Florida, now 53-7, faces South Florida at 1 p.m. today in a winner's bracket game.
"I was just excited," Bache said. "You have to be prepared for anything."
Florida fell behind in the first inning on an unearned run. Shortstop Katie Medina's high throw on the first batter of the game allowed Hampton to put a runner on second. A sacrifice and a grounder put UF in a 1-0 hole.
"That was an uncharacteristic mistake for Katie Medina," Walton said.
But Bache was strong after that inning, striking out four and only allowing four Hampton runners to reach base the entire game. She recorded four outs on comebackers and another on a pop to the pitcher.
Bache, now unbeaten in nine decisions, only allowed two balls out of the infield. Diamond Ponds had Hampton's first hit of the game, an infield hit to deep short in the fifth inning.
"I've never had that many balls hit back to me," she said. "I was ready for whatever came."
The win sets up a matchup with South Florida, the team that knocked Florida out of last year's regional in Gainesville. Florida won its only two games against the Bulls this year, but USF (44-14) has won 33 of 35 since the second loss to Florida.
"They have (pitcher) Sara Nevins," Walton said. "She's really good, one of the best in the country. You can prepare all you want, but you have to be able to execute."
Nevins, who is now 26-7, pitched the final three innings of USF's 1-0 win over Georgia Southern in eight innings in the regional opener.
Florida has now won 19 games when trailing this season and jumped on Hampton starting pitcher Jailynn Jackson (26-12) with four runs in the third. After the Gators loaded the bases with nobody out, sophomore Lauren Haeger delivered a single to center to tie the game.
After a sacrifice fly by Taylor Schwarz gave Florida the lead, Kelsey Horton singled home a third run and Brianna Little followed with a triple, her second of the year, to make it 4-1.
The Gators extended their lead in the fifth inning when Horton blasted a solo shot to center, her 10th homer of the season, and Taylore Fuller followed two batters later with a long homer off the foul pole in left to make it 6-1.
Haeger singled home a run in the sixth and now has a team-leading 63 RBIs this season.
South Florida's Ashli Goff had three of the Bulls' four hits in that game and scored the game-winner on a squeeze play.
Georgia Southern (32-29) plays Hampton (33-25) in the elimination game Saturday at 3:30 p.m.
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Lian Li's PC-A05FN: Alternative Thinking at a $99 Price Pointby Dustin Sklavos on 12/7/2011 10:15 PM EST
- Posted in
- Cases/Cooling/PSUs
- mid-tower
- Lian Li
65 Comments
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jigglywiggly - Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - linkI just bought a 30$ xigamatek pc case from newegg that craps all over this.
This case is too small first of all.
The xigamatek is fairly large, fits 3870x2 + 3870 in CF np, fits big heatsink.
it has a hole to remove the heatsink from the tray so no need to take mobo out.
Fits 630watt psu, totally tooless.
This case is more than 3x the price and I would pick the xigamatek. It's also incredibly light so it's probably easier to transport. Reply
insurgent - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkThe Xigmatek is also a boring steel case while this is made of brushed aluminum with superior build quality. The Xigmatek doesn't "crap" all over this, they belong in different market segments: those who are poor/cheap and those who appreciate nice things and have money to spare. Reply
james.jwb - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI had an A05nb that i cut a PSU 120mm hole for, and added a top panel identical to this one for a 140mm fan.
It's a great looking case, there is no denying it, but it's quite flimsy. The aluminium is very thin, you get no extra features either. No good cable routing, no sound dampening. I just swapped it out for a Define R3 and it really shows how Lian Li seem to be falling behind on what is now standard on most cases.
There is no other case like it though. If you what a great looks and a small footprint, it's as good as it gets, especially now it has those extra fan placements as standard, because my god, it needed it with my old 4890 installed :)
With the right fans, it can definitely handle a 6970 setup fine, mine did. Reply
ckryan - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkThe old version of this case is where it's at. I don't like the new version as much. Reply
Ben90 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI just found a piece of cardboard from the dumpster that craps all over the xigametek.
That case is too small first of all.
The cardboard is fairly large, fits Bitchin' Fast 3D 2000 in SLI np, fits autocascade.
It has no fasteners anywhere so no need to take anything out.
Fits a bin of extra computer parts, totally tooless.
This case is more than infinite the price and I would pick the cardboard. It's also incredibly light so it's probably easier to transport. Reply
Gazziza - Sunday, December 18, 2011 - link"This case is too small first of all.
The xigamatek is fairly large, fits 3870x2 + 3870 in CF np, fits big heatsink."
You're obviously not the target market for this case then. The whole point is that this case is supposed to be smaller than most mid towers. Not everyone has the space to fit in a larger case. You're making an apples to orange comparison. This Lian-Li and your Xigmatek occupy different parts of the market. Reply
Iketh - Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - linkLian Li must have read my mind regarding HD temps. If you're using 5400-5900 rpm drives, they get far too cool with fans blowing directly on them (20-25C). The approach in this case alleviates that, but what happens to HD temps when you're running a full load on the cpu for several hours straight?? That heat is blowing right over the hard drives. I can't see how they won't reach at least 50C, especially if using 7200rpm. That front fan should just be an intake also and open the top cover. Reply
beginner99 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkplus with this design they are countering natural air flow (warm air is lighter) forcing it to flow down a bit. Inputs at the fronts bottom and top-rear exhaust makes more sense. Reply
Alecthar - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkThe actual effect of convection for PC cases is usually overstated. Air, even warm air, is going to go where the fans draw it. There's also no reason to believe that "countering" the natural direction of air flow is in any way significant. Should you draw warm air over your HDDs? Maybe not, but that really has little to do with whether or not the case should be working with, or just ignoring, convection. Reply
Strunf - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkWhy do you say the HD get far too cool? as far as I know 25°C is the optimal temperature for all electronics devices. Reply
Iketh - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkhttp://static.googleusercontent.com/external_conte...
Scroll down to figure 4 and 5. The sweet spot for hard drives is 35-45C, which makes sense since that's the temps they reach with very little air flow and probably the temps manufacturers tune their microscopic clearances. Reply
ckryan - Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - linkI have the last revision of this case, and it's my favorite. It's sure as hell not for everyone, and maybe not even for many, but a few people such as myself love this case design. I love the aesthetic, and when fitted with the right components and some good case dampening material you get a quiet but good looking system. (It looks particularly good with the Samsung BD drives...). Some think of this case as a blank canvas, and I count myself among those.
The last previous revisions have had no out of box top vent for the GPU area. That's pretty much my major complaint (but I enjoy the lack of exterior openings for noise to leak out). With the airflow of the rear intake you can run a good tower cooler passively if you so desire. Cable management is a nightmare do to the PSU placement being way too close to power connections on the motherboard itself. But I like the upside down motherboard placement and think it's a great system. GPUs face up, and as long as it can cope with cooling itself, it's awesome.
Thank you for obtaining the new version of this case. I have a Lian Li V351 uATX case, and it's a strange but beautiful design. If you're willing to work with the enclosure, I think they're most satisfying, attractive, and quirky. Reply
Alecthar - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkIt's a generally held belief among the Lian Li enthusiasts I know that the earlier revisions of this case (A05NB) are superior to the slightly more orthodox layout of this newer model. I certainly agree in principle (I can't speak to practice, as I don't currently own one0. Reply
Hrel - Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - linkI really like the brushed aluminum minimalist looks of this. But it's too loud and too small. I'd really like a Fractal R3 except with this brushed aluminum exterior and no side grate, smooth everywhere. Some sound dampening foam would go a long way too. Also the reverse design is weird and wouldn't work for how I build rigs.
All in all I love the aesthetics of this thing. But a micro-ATX case is as small as I can go, and then things get cramped. Reverse design = no good. Too loud.
With all that said, I think there will be people who will really want this. I think it'd make a really nice looking HTPC case. As I've never been a fan of paying 150+ for a horizontal case with a wimpy power supply just so it can "look" like a receiver and not a computer. I'll never understand the market for those cases. What's wrong with just a regular PC tower? Reply
ckryan - Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - linkI added AcoustiPak material to all of the interior surfaces and the inside of the front bezel. With a Noctua U12 SE2 cooler and a midrange GPU everything is great. The new USB3.0 revision has the 140mm top fan mount to reign in the GPU area heat. So multi gpu configurations are out, but with the right card you can have low noise and good temps... but it's a little challenging. I'm using a Seasonic X650 PSU, and it's always running in passive cooling mode (as a 2500K doesn't suck much juice even with a healthy OC).
But seriously, it's not for everyone. I liked the case enough that I was willing to choose components that would work in the case, and I think it's the most attractive mid tower case around. I recommend something like a GTX460/560 that runs cool to begin with, and some designs are going to work better than others. But you don't have to worry about CPU tems, so to a certain extent it's okay if the case gets warm elsewhere. Reply
S0me1X - Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - linkLike the previous poster, I have the previous version of this case. It is actually superior in terms of cooling (provided you upgrade the fan-less top panel with the 140-mm fan one). This way, you get directed airflow from bottom (cpu) of the case to the top (gpu). Alternatively, you can use one of these kits: http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php... , which integrates well with both cases. Also, if you use the PCI cooling bracket, you should use a GPU heatsink which has no built in fan (Prolimatech MK13 is a great match for this).
Another thing is: this case cools a lot better without the hard drive bracket. I'm only using the 5.25 bays (4 120gb ssds in a single bay:) ). So remove the hard drive bracket (also remove the hard drive fan) and have the PSU fan pointing upwards. Finally, replacing the bay covers with these http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product06.php... actually has a dramatic impact.
What I am getting at is this case requires some simple (tool-less) modifications to really shine. What you get is a compact (but fits full size mobo) all aluminum (light and elegant) case for a very good price. Reply
S0me1X - Wednesday, December 07, 2011 - linkI'd like to add that I would probably try reversing the fans in the revision used in your review. In other words, have the back/top fans exhaust and don't use the front fan at all. Remove the hard drive bay and install the PCI cooling bracket. Reply
Stuka87 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI am not digging on this case. I love aluminum cases, but this case is too short. The video card goes into the hard drive area.
And I dont case for the air intake. Far too much resistance which means that intake fan most likely ends up pulling in air from the case, rather than from outside the case.
It needs to be about an inch longer, and have a larger air intake from that front fan. Reply
tzhu07 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkJust read (skimmed) through this. I like the elegance of Lian Li, however their cases are not the best for noise control.
I recently ordered parts for a build on Newegg, and I considered lots of Lian Li's for microATX, but in the end I chose the Fractal Design Define Mini. It's not too big and not too small, and most of all was built with silence in mind. Can't wait to assemble it together. Reply
Beenthere - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - link...poor design throughout. "Just because you can doesn't mean you should", sums up this design precisely. This is usually the result of looking for sales by being weird and it actually works sometimes. Reply
know of fence - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkEvery case I ever opened had this empty room in the lower front, where only tumble weeds of dusts are blowing, maybe you'll find a dropped drive screw there, or a stray cable. Sometimes you'll even spot a speaker (beeper) from the old days...
It's the most logical and consequential thing to stick a power supply there, even if you have to reroute the power cable. Reply
Beenthere - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkPSUs are intentionally mounted in the upper back of a case as that's where the heat is that the PSU fan evacuates. Basic engineering 101. Reply
Luumpy - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkYa thats the worst possible place for a psu(Top of case) . It sucks in hot air from the rest of pc. Just dumb.
Your clearly NOT an engineer.
Most high end cases put psu at bottom of case, where its cool. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkReally splitting hairs here. The old ATX design says for the PSU to be in the top/back, because the air flow is from the lower/front, once over all components and then out the back . It was designed in old times when PCs used below 100W. Then came 100W CPUs and 300W graphics cards and things changed a bit.
You cannot say that a PSU _must_ be at the top/back. However, you are just as wrong to say that it is a dumb place for it to be because of sucking in hot air. You can put it in the bottom. You can also put it in the top and turn it upside down (TJ08-E).
Mostly, it doesn't matter nowadays as PSUs get ever more efficient, more and more becoming quieter and even semi-passive to the point where their exhaust ability is negligible and their need to be cooled also diminishes. And people with beefy hardware have one or two 120/140mm exhaust fans anyway.
To the original poster: This design didn't really win any space by the positioning of the PSU. Also, a lot of modern designs use that space for HDDs, drives bays, larger fans and other interesting things. Depending on the usage scenario, dead space can be used quite effectively (water cooling, where you need space for a pump and a reservoir for example). Reply
crackedwiseman - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI made a build for a client of mine back in early 2009 using an earlier model of this case - the significant difference was the motherboard tray was "upside down", with the CPU being on the bottom and the GPU being on top. It performed spectacularly; the build was an overclocked i7-920 and a GTX 260, with a pair of 3.5" HDDs.
Yes, it's cramped - thats the price of a small case. But (the older models at least) could handle pretty much any high-end single GPU system; this isn't made for gaming rigs, it's made to cram a powerful work machine into as little space as possible, which can be appealing depending on the availability of office space. Reply
johnsmith9875 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkIt has a hot spot at the top of the case. I use a slot cooler to take the heat that the video card generates and get it out of the box, otherwise it would cook anything near the top of the case.
Because the cover on the front obstructs airflow I keep it off in the summer. In winter it seems to be adequately ventilated.
What it needs is a blowhole in the top. Reply
Chuck_NC - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkInteresting to read the reviews. As an engineer, there are some obvious points to make. I doubt that the HDD temps going higher are intentional, but a byproduct of goofing the airflow around the front. With the PSU blowing out, the HDD fan just pulls the hot exhaust right back in again. The PSU and HDD fans end up recirculating the air. They should reverse the direction of the HDD fan to blow out, and provide positive pressure from other fans going *into* the case (side fan, back, etc.). Would drop all temps, especially those in the front of the case. Anyway you do this, the HDDs are going to be warmer though.
By moving the PSU from the typical top over the CPU area over to the front bottom, there is much less air being drawn out of the top back of the case, causing a hot spot area. Again, a side intake fan would help that but at the expense of noise and an added fan, which also adds less reliability (fans fail faster than any other PC part).
I would guess that whoever designed this was looking more at aesthetics and less at airflow, but some minor changes fixes the airflow problems. And the blowhole idea is great - but add some air going into the case somewhere else. Reply
Kepe - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkYou didn't read the article. Air is sucked in by the rear fan, and exhausted by the front fan. Also, the typical place for the PSU has changed from the top back position to the bottom back position over the last, say, five years. I haven't seen cases with the PSU in the top back position for years. Reply
Iketh - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkWarmer HDD temps are good up to about 45-50C. The problem is HDs running too cool with intakes blowing right on them (below 30C). Reply
TwistedKestrel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI pulled the trigger on this case when there weren't too many reviews out there. I laughed at the picture of the mess of cables - it made me feel better about not being able to figure out a good way to route pretty much everything.
I still like it though. The cooling idea may not have paid off, but it hasn't seriously impacted my ability to overclock. The finish is nice, it's reasonably quiet ... better than a fork in the eye. Would I have bought if I'd seen this review first? Probably not! Reply
MadMan007 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkLian-Li cases always seem to have too large dimensions. I know for this example the depth is because of the front-mounted PSU and the height is short for being able to fit a full ATX motherboard, but this observation holds for many Lian-Li cases. Theyt always seem to be rediculous in one dimension which throws off much of the appeal.
What I would love to see is the same case in an mATX version. Place the PSU below or above the motherboard and reduce the excessive length from 20" to about 16". That would be a nice-looking and functional mATX case. Reply
renosablast - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkWhat is the point of reviewing a product assembled with components that it is clearly not designed to handle? Your testbed is obviously not a one-size-fits all proposition either. You cannot pass judgement on a particular design when you start off deviating from that design. How about a re-review assembled with the components it is designed for? Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkIf we take a lesser setup (maybe a 6870 GPU, a smaller PSU, and change out the CPU while we're at it), power and heat and noise all go down. That doesn't necessarily tell us much about cases other than that lower end equipment doesn't require as much cooling. Our rationale with the test configuration was to put together a reasonably high-end setup without going overkill. The GTX 580 is a fast GPU and more than what a lot of users need, but at the same time I know I wasn't happy with my single HD 5870 and I'm doing much better with a 580.
Even without testing lower end hardware, the inclusion of both stock and overclocked testing gives us a good idea of how a solution scales. The idle noise, temps, and power will only drop marginally while load will be somewhere in between. The PSU will have better clearance, which we don't even need to test. Basically, the point of a standardized testbed is exactly that: to have a standard. Changing the standard would change the results, but you can compare the cases regardless. It doesn't "invalidate" anything. Reply
renosablast - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkSorry, Jarred, I beg to differ. What a reviewer has to remember is that the perception of the READER of the review is what is important. A READER looks at a review to decide if a product performs AS IT IS DESIGNED and FOR THE PURPOSE IT IS DESIGNED; not for a comparison of how well it works with obviously above-the-design-level components.
No computer builder or enthusiast in their right mind is going to consider stuffing a case such as this with components the likes of the test bed used. To do so to satisfy your own curiosity is one thing; to consider it a "review" of the product is quite a stretch and lacks VALIDITY.
That's my story and I am sticking to it! Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkExcept that knowing that it CAN handle these components (albeit with work) suggests that it should perform much better with a component selection much more appropriate to it. I've given you the information you need by going above it.
And as far as I'm concerned, the individual perceptions of the readers (which can vary wildly) isn't important to me. What is important is producing a review that is fair, understands what the hardware being reviewed is intended for, and as factual as possible. I can't tell everyone what they want to know, but I can tell most of you what you NEED to know. Reply
996GT2 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkThis case is one of the smallest ATX cases you can buy, and you can really fit a whole lot in there if you do some research beforehand. Of course it's not for everyone, but then again, not everyone is a case enthusiast.
With regard to GPUs: you can mount any GPU you want to in there if you remove the hard drive bay. I am using a 11.5" Gigabyte GTX 570 Windforce without any issues. I have a DVD drive, 3.5" HDD, and 2.5" SSD in the 5.25" bays.
All of your concerns about GPU cooling would be alleviated if Lian Li included a side intake by default. I cut a side intake on my A05NB (the last revision of this case, with the inverted design), and GPU temperatures are excellent.
Lastly, I wish Lian Li didn't ditch the inverted ATX design with this new revision. The older inverted design had a number of benefits, such as:
1) No chance of PSU blocking any SATA ports
2) Intake fan at the rear is placed lower than exhaust fan in the front, allowing hot air to rise
3) Room for a radiator at the top or bottom of the case.
4) If you have a liquid cooling system on the CPU and it leaks, it won't leak onto the GPU because the GPU is located above the CPU in the A05NB. Reply
cjs150 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkThe old design resulted is some truly beautiful water-cooled mods - I only wish I was half as talented.
The inverted ATX design worked really well.
Lian Li go back to the old design but with the following changes:
1. More room behind the motherboard tray
2. Bit more space (as per Fractal Arc mini) up top so radiator fits comfortably
3. I like the front mounted PSU concept but experiment with it being across width of case not the normal way, there are two ways of doing that, intake fan on bottom or intake fan facing front of case. Big advantages are, much cleaner cable routing and much more space at bottom of case (ideal for pumps, SSDs
4. Not sure we really need 2x 5.1/4 and a 3.5 external bay. Any chance of cutting one out and increasing size of front fan (nice location for front mounted radiator) Reply
Stas - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkUsed it on 3 or 4 builds. Very nice case. It is a bit thin for my liking. However, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on my own rig, if I didn't have 5 HDDs, 2 optical drives and 4 expansion cards in the mobo. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI have to say that reading the reviews of small enclousures on AT is always something. You manage to point out the difficulties of those cases, but i often get the feeling that Most people who choose a small case for potent hardware already know the limitations anderen build around them. still, great to see reviews of more normal (read : sub-150) cases, since i dont think you need to spend a lot on a case even if you use expensive components . :-) Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkTyping on a smartphone with German dictionary in the background messes things up. Hope it's still readable. :D Reply
ShieTar - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkThis is a strange thermal design indeed. It seems the engineers at Lian Li were trying to get the best CPU cooling possible, without too much care about what that will do to the GPU.
Sounds as if it could give you a nice, silent workstation with a high-power CPU and On-Chip graphics. Sadly, in my personal experience, most business buyers don't seem to care too much about the noise that their employees will have to suffer from their machienes, and just go straight for the cheapest offer.
Still, it would be interesting too see a comparison of this box and a more classical competitor when filled with this kind of business setup instead of your standard, more gaming centered, testbed. Reply
Touche - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkAluminum cases have a big drawback. They tend to hum due to HDD vibrations. It'not (as) noticable if you have loud fans, but it's terrible with quiet computers. Reply
bji - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI have this case and this doesn't happen to mine. No humming. Also my fans are almost never running; it's a quiet computer.
Why is aluminum more susceptible than steel anyway? What's the science behind your statement? Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkMass (weight) is a great noise insulator. And steel has a greater mass than alu. So usually, steel has better acoustic qualities. Using that to translate "all alu cases are worse than others" is not right. Reply
ckryan - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI put a lot of mass on the panels with the acoustic dampening material, and it's totally worth it. But I didn't have any humming or vibrations beforehand. Reply
piroroadkill - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkSideways 3.5" drive bays. Having them facing the board is just way too cluttered. With the immense width of this case, you'd think they'd have much better cable routing options behind the motherboard tray, too. Reply
darkhawk1980 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI don't have the case, and it's difficult to really know if it would fit or work, but would it be possible to modify the side panel and add in a 80mm or 120mm fan that could blow air in near the air inlet on the GPU? Specifically, perhaps, placing one right near the back (or front, depending on your viewpoint) of the GPU, and placing it between the end of the GPU and the HDD caddy's? This might improve both the GPU temperatures and the SSD temperatures, although I'm not sure if it would help or hinder the other temperatures inside the case. This would also help to provide a positive internal pressure (looks like 1 inlet fan at the back, and 2 outlet fans [power supply exhaust + front 120mm fan exhaust]) which is definitely a good thing. Reply
MadAd - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkIve given up giving up on these cases with creative item rearrangements. It never works, weve had ATX for 10+ years and if there was a good configuration to be found, wed have it already.
Why dont the manufacturers start calling for a smaller redesign? Optical Disks and Power Supplies are limiting shrinking the box atm, but ask for a smaller power supply atm and people grimace with the mutterings of 1U on their lips. Mobos can always be smaller, all electronics can, but no one seems to have any will to do it.
If consoles pads and laptops are 'taking over' standard pcs, then its time to do it...most home users dont need more than a slim client, with space usually going to ppl with many HDD (nas box anyone?) or large gfx arrays.
IM sure atx wont just disappear tho, enthusiasts that need the space can use it, but we really need to deal with this size thing to move the PC into the living room. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI don't see the shortage of small enclosures, be they ITX or mATX, in the last few years. There are quite a lot of cases that offer what you describe, with SFX PSUs for moderately powerful gaming rigs or external pico PSUs for mid to high-end CPU+iGPU configurations.
And there there is also the AIO becoming increasingly powerful and cheap.
ATX will always be around because a lot of people don't want to pay the premium for the smaller size and they just hide the case. Or they actually need the space. I don't see how anything huge has to change though, as there are products for everyones purposes. :-) Reply
MadAd - Sunday, December 11, 2011 - link"a lot of people don't want to pay the premium for the smaller size"
so until the market moves to a new standard, anything that isnt atx is going to have a premium on it..its dragging the platform as a whole down Reply
ArteTetra - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI think this case was designed to be put in a piece of furniture. Hot air is expelled from the front because furniture is usually closed on the back. The compact size also fits this role.
I guess there are people who could be very interested in this. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkIf the back is closed, where would the case get the cool air it needed? You need 2 sides to be relatively unobstructed in order to ensure good temperatures and noise. It really doesn't matter if it's front to back or vice versa if the rest is similar. :-) Reply
geniekid - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - link"the overarching theme is that people want an enclosure that reminds them of the monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey."
Lol! So true. Myself included. Reply
NINaudio - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkwe could get a review of the lancool PC-K9? That looks like a very interesting case and I'd love to see how it stacks up. Reply
bji - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkThis case is not for everyone. It is smaller and has weaker cooling characteristics than other cases. It works perfectly for my setup, which is a Phenom II 1075T, SSD drives, a high-end aftermarket heatsink and 120mm fan CPU cooler, a singe low-speed quiet 120 mm case fan at the back, motherboard, and nothing else (no dedicated GPU, I just use the crappy one on the motherboard, I don't do any gaming whatsoever). My whole system stays as cool as I could want.
So if your cooling needs are moderate, this case is fine.
I personally appreciate the fact that it doesn't look like a big plastic piece of crap with weird angles, holes, and plastic extrusions everywhere. It looks classy and understated. The aluminum is thin like someone said but I find it to be strong and durable enough.
The *only* quibble I have is that the lid for the top USB ports/audio ports is kind of cheaply made. It has sharp edges and the hinge protrudes out of the top surface. It would be nicer if it was flush somehow, it would fit the smooth surfaces of the case better. Reply
8steve8 - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkwho needs a full size atx motherboard anymore???
... and by that, almost no one needs a full size atx case.
this case might be worth looking at if it was microatx Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkPretty much my thoughts these days. Only reason to go full ATX these days is insane enthusiast builds or shaving off a few bucks. Reply
zhadlp - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkfor that size, its more suited for an matx build... and I'd still prefer my A04 compared to this one, they both have belong to the same price point I think.
easy to mod too... :)
http://www.techpowerup.com/gallery/2983.html Reply
CZroe - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkNot one single shot of the front with a PSU installed with the faceplate removed? I was curious about how far the thing protruded and wondered if the PSU was inset a bit to compensate for that. Reply
shakyone - Thursday, December 08, 2011 - linkI purchased the original one of these, four years ago. It has been sitting in my kitchen, quietly humming away, always on.
The beauty of this thing is that it just looks "classy" and simple. It is very tiny, yet it fits a full size ATX motherboard! Seriously people, this baby can fit a fully loaded system, and look petite doing it. If you want to put a PC out where it doesn't need to draw attention, this is the case to do it. It doesn't draw any attention to itself in the process, that was the goal.
As reported, yes it runs hot. I scaled back from a high end graphics card for a Radeon 5770, that ran cool. I also have to be careful when picking parts, because it is small.
I'm waiting for the price to drop on this version, and I'm pulling the trigger, as an upgrade. The Lian-Li quality, really closed the deal. I was able to get all matching Lian-Li accessories, and it keeps it diminutive appearance. I get that they are not the best of the best, but they work very well, and look like the belonged there all along. They have more matching case accessories than I think any other manufacturer, and it is worth it, for me.
You can do a lot with this one, that is its secret! Reply
nubie - Saturday, December 10, 2011 - linkI would rather have a case that is smaller in the front-to-back dimension, even at the cost of a little height.
Actually, a dream would be the GTR3 (it can hold a full-atx motherboard and a dual-slot video card, and it is as small as many an ITX case.)
If only the GTR3 was easier to install and work with, but you can't have everything. Reply
owdi - Saturday, December 10, 2011 - linkThe author missed an key feature of this case - it is one of the shortest ATX cases on the market.
I bought the previous version of this case because it fits inside the center channel compartment of a http://detonator.dynamitedata.com/cgi-bin/redirect...">Techcraft SWP60 TV stand. Just barely. You have to install it through the back and it does stick out by 3 inches. Reply
owdi - Saturday, December 10, 2011 - linkThat link to amazon didn't work an I can't figure out how to edit my post. blah Reply
MadAd - Sunday, December 11, 2011 - linkshort, long, when the area is about the same its all fiddling around the edges of a tired market long overdue an overhaul Reply
Tigashark - Tuesday, December 13, 2011 - linkAgree with the other commentors... the Inverted design worked far better with the old A05N which I happen to own. The old design has the motherboard mounted in a way that the CPU is on the bottom, airflow is from the rear to front and the system keeps plenty cool .
It *will* fit a full 11.5 inch graphics card in it which ends up sitting behind the bottom optical bays which are rarely used.
Im not sure why LianLi changed this design.. its main advantage is it was a very small formfactor that can fit any graphics card, while remaining light and portable (and looking GREAT) .
They should have changed the model number to avoid customer confusion as the "Old" A05N is far better... Reply


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This guide provides examples of citing sources in MLA style across a variety of formats. Links to an interactive tutorial provides students with practice and feedback on using MLS to cite. This guide also links to resources with additional information and examples. Keywords: ASC, APA, Turabian, Chicago Style, documenting sources, citing government documents, APSA, ASA, AIP, ASM, AMA, AMS, Legal Citation, IEEE Standards Manual, AAA, ACE


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