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Intel's Haswell - An HTPC Perspective: Media Playback, 4K and QuickSync Evaluatedby Ganesh T S on 6/2/2013 8:15 PM EST
95 Comments
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jhoff80 - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkThis article and the power consumption stats just make me wish that Intel would just make it easier to get a hold of their -T chips for end users. A 35W or 45W chip would be great for me, but the only thing that has full retail availability is the 65W one. (And it's not because it's so early in launch, it's always been way too difficult to get -T versions.) Reply
EnzoFX - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkNot to mention expensive! You get the same results by undervolting/underclocking, typically. Reply
Laststop311 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkYou are correct in a way but you could undervolt the T series as well and get better thermal performance then the 65 watt version. atleast that is my experience. If i was making an HTPC i would use the i7-4770t or the i7-4650t if thats the equivalent of the i7-3770t this year. The power consumption is amazing and proper 24hz is great for 1080p24 playback. upgrade to the htpc just isn't in my budget right now and ivy bridge + gt 660 isnt a bad htpc. MY PC budget is going to an ultrabook upgrade this year. The increased battery life and performance is insane. i7-980x desktop still does not have a large enough upgrade to make it worth it. Ivy bridge-E is not THAT much faster and I dont think even haswell-e next year will be enough to upgrade the desktop. Reply
Death666Angel - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - link"but you could undervolt the T series as well and get better thermal performance then the 65 watt version."
Not to the same extent. The T series will already be driving much tighter voltages than normal SKUs. While you may save 15% power consumption by undervolting normal SKUs, undervolting already power efficient SKUs would result in sub 5% probably. Reply
vnangia - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkWell, it helps that there are 35W parts this time around - at least on the timeline. IVB didn't get any 35W parts, so the HTPC is still on SNB, and yeah, I could definitely use the incremental improvements to QuickSync. Reply
jhoff80 - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkYes, but I'm not talking about only 35W specific chips. The i7-3770T was just as difficult to get as any other -T series chip, because they don't sell them to end-users directly. Reply
vnangia - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkI'm agreeing with you! What I was trying to say is, Intel did announce low-TDP SNB parts and delivered: SNB had a bunch of -T versions available to end-users at both low (G4xx, G5xxT, 2100T, 2120T) and high end (2390, 2500T). I bought my 2100T at Microcenter B&M for instance.
By contrast, Intel didn't announce any end-user -T (and just a handful of -S) parts and we saw that IVB had virtually no -T parts available. I'm optimistic that now they've announced a few -T parts at the high end, we might actually see these materialize in the retail chain and hopefully it bodes well for -T parts at the low end.
Fortunately (*knocks on wood*) the current SNB-based HTPC is still going strong, so I don't feel the need to upgrade. If and when I do, though, I expect that it won't be so clear cut - I may end up going with AMD's lineup, despite the relative paucity of AMD ITX boards. Reply
jhoff80 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkSorry, I must've misunderstood. Reply
Krysto - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkThis is insane. Why use a $400 Intel Haswell media box for 4k video, when you can use the much cheaper and much more efficient Mali T622-based media boxes that should be appearing next year?
http://blogs.arm.com/multimedia/977-a-new-branch-f... Reply
NirXY - Monday, June 03, 2013 - link"should be appearing next year" Reply
heffeque - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkWell... the AMD A4-5000 seems to be perfect for HTPC and I don't see in this comparison.
Why not try comparing what the AMD A4-5000 can do (4k, 23Hz, etc) versus this Haswell system?
The CPU isn't that good, but there's no need for much CPU on HTPC systems, and also... the price, just look at the price. Reply
meacupla - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkwhen you playback hi10 or silverlight content, having a fast cpu helps immensely, since those formats don't have dxva support. Reply
halbhh2 - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkConsider prices, at $122 suggested, the new A10 6700 is going to be interesting as the real competition to this Intel chip. Reply
majorleague - Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - linkHere is a youtube link showing 3dmark11 and windows index rating for the 4770k 3.5ghz Haswell. Not overclocked.
This is apparently around 10-20fps slower than the 6800k in most games. And almost twice the price!!
Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Yo2A__1Xw Reply
JDG1980 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkYou can't use madVR on ARM. And most ARM platforms are highly locked down so you may be stuck with sub-par playback software from whoever the final vendor is. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkBecause we don't live in next year, Doc Brown? Reply
BMNify - Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - linkfor the same reason that QS isn't being used far more today, that being Intel and arm devs talk the talk but don't listen to or even stay in contact with the number one video quality partners ,that being the x264 and ffmpeg devs and provide their arm patches for review and official inclusion in these two key Cecil app code bases to actually use the arm/intel Low Level video encode/decode API's Reply
MrSpadge - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkUse an i5 and the price almost drops in half. Then undervolt it a bit and each regular CPU will only draw 40 - 50 W under sustained load. Which media playback doesn't create anyway. Reply
Mayuyu - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - link2-Pass encodes do not offer any improvements in compression efficiency in x264. The only time you would want to use a 2-Pass encode is to hit a certain file size.
Quicksync is irrelevant because their h264 encodes are inferior in quality to xvid (which has been outdated for a long time now). Reply
raulizahi - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link@Mayuyu, 2-pass x264 encodes using VBR do offer improvements in compression efficiency at the same video quality. I have proven it many times. An example: target 720p50 at 3Mbps VBR, first pass I get a certain quality, second pass I get noticeably better quality. Reply
mindbomb - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkThe current version of madvr does support dxva native actually. Reply
gevorg - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkThe near $300 price of i7-4765T is extremely price prohibitive for HTPC use. Majority of users will find AMD's Trinity APUs to be perfect for HTPC job.
Also, unless Intel handicapped it, you should be able to downclock any i7 Haswell CPU to be near i7-4765T speed/TDP. This is possible with Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge chips. Reply
meacupla - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkthe only problem with trinity is the rather limited choice of mITX mobos and rather high power consumption and thermal output, which makes them not ideal for compact HTPCs...
Although, granted, for $300 for the CPU alone, I'd much rather buy an xboxone or PS4. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkYou just listed four problems while saying, "the only problem with trinity." That's the real problem with AMD's options. There's like "one problem" for everyone. Reply
Spunjji - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkExcept for those of us for whom there are none, and/or are prepared to live with limitations to not have to shell out $300 on a CPU. Reply
vnangia - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkVery true. The SNB low-TDP parts were within spitting distance of their equivalent regular-TDP parts (about $25-50 more), not $200 more. Reply
JDG1980 - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkIf you can wait six months or so, you're probably going to be better off going with Kaveri. AMD is going to be substantially increasing the GPU power of their APU and switching to a homogenous memory architecture so everything uses GDDR5. What little I've heard (which may not be reliable) seems to indicate that the GPU in Kaveri may be about on par with the discrete 7750. I don't know if they can pull that off, but if they even come close then they will have basically rendered all sub-$100 discrete GPUs obsolete. Reply
lmcd - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkInaccurate. $100 GPUs will have improved by Kaveri's release. And AMD's drivers won't necessarily meet the expectations set here either. Reply
medi02 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkThis driver FUD is getting old... Reply
Spunjji - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkVery old, but don't expect it to stop. Reply
HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkI've heard this song and dance before. It never happens. Plus, limiting people to GDDR5 of pre-determined amounts for a HTPC seems like an exercise in being stupid. Reply
Spunjji - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkYeah, I'm not buying that rumour. Doesn't make much sense. Reply
JDG1980 - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkIt's good to see that Intel finally got around to fixing the 23.976 fps bug, which was the biggest show-stopper for using their integrated graphics in a HTPC.
Regarding MadVR, I'd be interested to see more benchmarks. How good can you run the settings before hitting a wall with GPU utilization? How about on the GT3e - if this ever shows up in an all-in-one Mini-ITX board or NUC, it might be a great choice for HTPCs. Can it handle the good scaling algorithms?
My own experience is that anti-ringing doesn't add that much GPU load. I recently upgraded to a Radeon HD 7750, and it can handle anti-ringing filters on both luma and chroma with no problem. Chroma upscaling works fine with 3-tap Jinc, and luma also can do this with SD content (even interlaced), but for the most demanding test clip I have (1440x1080 interlaced 60 fields per second) I have to downgrade luma scaling to either Lanczos 3-tap or SoftCubic 80 to avoid dropping frames. (The output destination is a 1080p TV.) I suspect a 7790 or 7850 could handle 3-tap Jinc for both chroma and luma at all resolutions and frame rates up to full HD.
By the way, I found a weird problem with madVR - when I ran GPU-Z in the background to monitor load, all interlaced content dropped frames. Didn't matter what settings I used. Closing GPU-Z ended the problem. I was still able to monitor GPU load with Microsoft's "Process Explorer" application and this did not cause any problems.
Regarding 4K output, did you test whether DisplayPort 60 Hz 4K works properly? This might be of interest to some users, especially if the upcoming Asus 4K monitor is released at a reasonable price point. I know people have had to use some odd tricks to get the Sharp 4K monitor to do native resolution at 60 Hz with existing cards. Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkThis is very interesting.. What version of GPU-Z were you using? I will check whether my Jinc / anti-ringing dropped frames were due to GPU-Z running in the background. I did do the initial setup when GPU-Z wasn't active, but obviously the benchmark runs were run with GPU-Z active in the background. Did you see any difference in GPU load between GPU-Z and Process Explorer when playing interlaced content with dropped frames? Reply
JDG1980 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkI was using the latest version (0.7.1) of GPU-Z. The strange part is that the GPU load calculation was correct - it was just dropping frames for no reason, it wasn't showing the GPU as being maxed out. For the video card, I was using the newest stable Catalyst driver (13.4, I believe) from AMD's website. The OS is Windows 7 Ultimate (64-bit).
The only reason I suspected GPU-Z is because after searching a bunch of forums to try to find out why interlaced content (even SD with low madVR settings) wouldn't play properly, I found one other user who said he had to turn off GPU-Z. I cannot say if this is a widespread issue and it's possible it may be limited to certain system configurations or certain GPUs. Still worth trying, though. Thanks for the follow-up! Reply
tential - Sunday, June 02, 2013 - linkI don't understand the H.264 Transcoding Performance chart at all can someone help?
QuickSync does more FPS at 720p than 1080p. This makes sense.
The x264 on the Core i3 and core i7 post higher FPS in 1080p but lower in 720p. Why is this? Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkMaybe the downscaling of the frame from 1080p to 720p sucks up more resources, causing the drop in FPS? Remember that the source is 1080p... Reply
tential - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkOk so if I'm downscaling to 720p, why does FPS increase with quicksync, but decrease with the processor?
It's OPPOSITE directions one increases (quicksync) one decreases (cpu). Wouldn't it be the same both ways? Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkDownscaling is also hardware accelerated in QS mode. Hardware transcode is faster for 720p decoded frames rather than 1080p decoded frames. The time taken to downscale is much lower than the time taken to transcode the 'extra pixels' in a 1080p version. Reply
elian123 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkGanesh, you mention "The Iris Pro 5200 GPUs are reserved for BGA configurations and unavailable to system builders". Does that imply that there won't be motherboards for sale with the 4770R integrated? Will the 4770R only be available in complete systems? Reply
StardogChampion - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkI am wondering about this comment as well. Everything I've read seemed to indicate it would be available in mini-ITX form for building AIOs (so likely thin mini-ITX). Haswell will be a big disappointment without availability of the BGA packages in mini-ITX form. Reply
Sivar - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkThank you for the article.
Note that x264 is a specific software encoder, not a type of video or a thing that can be accelerated ("While full x264 acceleration using QuickSync...")
H.264 is the video standard.
Also note that x264, the CPU-based encoding software, does not need to run in 2-pass mode to get great quality. 2-pass mode is ONLY if you want a specific file size regardless of quality. If you want a specific quality, you use quality mode. --CRF23, for example, returns small (though variable depending on content) file size and good quality. Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkSivar,
I did specifically want to mention full x264 acceleration using QuickSync -- That is because x264 is the H.264 encoder of choice for many users. The most beneficial addition to the CPU would be the ability to get hardware acceleration when using x264 with ANY set of options. That is simply not going to be possible with QuickSync (or, for that matter, any hardware-based encoder).
Yes, agreed about the mistaken mention of 2-pass for improved quality. I will update it shortly. Reply
Spawne32 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkPeople always fail to realize what key element in every one of these releases, how big the enthusiast market truly is. All of us posting here on this comment section regarding this review are a small fraction of the overall market intel targets, this is part of the reason AMD suffers so tragically with their current lineup. Power consumption and price are the two biggest factors in a regular consumers mind when purchasing a PC, be it laptop or desktop. Performance numbers rarely play a factor. I don't know what AMD is doing over there but I long for a day when AMD can actually challenge intel and drive prices down even further, because these 230-400 dollar starting prices for "mainstream" intel processors proves once again why I refuse to invest in them regardless of performance. The marginal increase in speed in my day to day activities does not warrant the price being paid for something that is obsolete in 1-2 years. AMD's highest priced processor right now is 179.99, its comparable intel counterpart in haswell....349.99, you do the math. Reply
bji - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkEither the increases in speed with each successive generation are great enough to render previous generations obsolete, or the increases in speed with each successive generation are small enough that the previous generation is not rendered obsolete. You can't have it both ways just to try to make Intel look bad, sorry.
I don't know what margin Intel is making on these parts - do you? Remember that they are sinking large R & D and transistor budgets into these minor speed increases, and at the same time sinking lots of money into developing the next generation of process technology. If $300 is not worth it to you, don't buy the part; Intel won't be able to sustain their R & D budgets if nobody buys the results. Reply
Deuge - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkIf one of the GT3 or GT3e parts comes out in a refreshed NUC, id love to see a review of it from an HTPC perspective. Very interested to hear if it can handle Lanzcos + AR or Jinc. Reply
dbcoopernz - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkIs the inability to use LAV with DXVA-native for madVR an Intel limitation? The devs of both the LAV filters and madVR have told me (on the doom9 forum) that DXVA-native is fine for madVR on AMD GPU's. Reply
BMNify - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkDXVA native DOES work with AMD using LAV filters and MadVR... I'm using it as I type (watching MotoGP) Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkIt also works with the Haswell piece. I will update the article ASAP. Reply
BMNify - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkAPU is the go to for HTPC builders. And stop with the power this and thermals that... undervolt it, toss in a Pico PSU, suspend to memory when not in use and enjoy. Take the hundreds saved and buy a Kabini or two as clients.
If we're talking balls to the wall processing might, absolutely, lets talk Intel but not for a simple HTPC. Reply
meacupla - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkthere's like... exactly one mITX FM2 mobo even worth considering out of a grand total of two. One of them catches on fire and neither of them have bluetooth or wifi.
LGA1155 and LGA1150 have at least four each. Reply
TomWomack - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkThe mITX FM2 motherboard that I bought last week has bluetooth and wifi; they're slightly kludged in (they are USB modules apparently glued into extra USB ports that they've added), but I don't care.
The Haswell mITX boards aren't available from my preferred supplier yet, so I've gone for micro-ATX for that machine. Reply
BMNify - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkI know you're trolling but the fact is more people are content with converting their 5 year old C2D cookie cutter desktop into an HTPC ($50 video card + case + IR receiver = job done) than buying all new kit.
We reached the age of "good enough" years ago. Money is tight and with all the available gadgets on the market (and more to come) people are looking to make it go as far as possible. Intel is going to find it harder and harder to get their high margin silicon into the homes of the average family. Good enough ARM mobile + good enough x86 allows people to own more devices and still pay the bills. It looks like AMD has accepted this, they've taking their lumps and are moving forward in this "new world". I'm not sure what Intels long term strategy is but I'm a bit concerned. Reply
Veroxious - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkAgreed 100%. I am using an old Dell SFF with an E2140 LGA775 CPU running XBMCbuntu. It works like a charm. I can watch movies while simultaneously adding content. That PC is near silent. What incentive do I have for upgrading to a Haswell based system? None whatsoever. Reply
kallogan - Monday, June 03, 2013 - link2.0 ghz seriously ??? The core 45W Sandy i5-2500T was at 2,3 ghz and 3,3 ghz turbo. LOL at this useless cpu gen. Reply
kallogan - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkForget my comment didn't see it was a i7 with 8 threads. 35W tdp is not bad either. But the 45W core i7-3770T would still smoke this. Reply
Montago - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkI must be blind... i don't see the regression you are talking about.
HD4000 QSV usually get smudgy and blocky.. and that i don't see in HD4600 ... so i think you are wrong in your statements.
comparing the frames, there is little difference, and none i would ever notice while watching the movie on a handheld device like an tablet or Smartphone.
The biggest problem with QSV is not the quality, but the filesize :-(
QSV is usually 2x larger than x264 Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkMontago,
Just one example of the many that can be unearthed from the galleries:
Look at Frame 4 in the 720p encodes in full size here:
HD4600: http://images.anandtech.com/galleries/2836/QSV-720...
HD4000: http://images.anandtech.com/galleries/2839/QSV-HD4...
Look at the horns of the cattle in the background to the right of the horse. The HD4000 version is sharper and more faithful to the original compared to the HD4600 version, even though the target bitrate is the same.
In general, when looking at the video being played back, these differences added up to a very evident quality loss.
Objectively, even the FPS took a beating with the HD4600 compared to the HD4000. There is some driver issue managing the new QuickSync Haswell modes definitely. Reply
nevcairiel - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkThe main Haswell performance test from Anand at least showed improved QuickSync performance over Ivy, as well as something called the "Better Quality" mode (which was slower than Ivy, but never specified what it really meant) Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkAnand used MediaEspresso (CyberLink's commercial app), while I used HandBrake. As far as I remember, MediaEspresso doesn't allow specification of target bitrate (at least from the time that I used it a year or so back), just better quality or better performance. Handbrake allows setting of target bitrate, so the modes that are being used by the Handbrake app might be completely different from those used by MediaEspresso.
As we theorize, some new Haswell modes which are probably not being used by MediaEspresso are making the transcodes longer and worse quality. Reply
eio - Sunday, June 23, 2013 - linkgreat example! very interesting.
I agree with Montage that for most snapshots, HD4600 is significantly better than HD4000 for retaining much more texture, even for this frame 4 in 1080p.
but in 720p HD4600 shows its trade off of keep more fine grained texture: looks like HD4600 are regressed in low contrast, large scale structral infomation.
as you said, this type of regression can be more evident in video than snapshots. Reply
eio - Sunday, June 23, 2013 - linkanother thing that surprises me is: x264 is a clear loser in this test. I don't understand why, what are the specific params that handbrake used to call x264? Reply
nevcairiel - Monday, June 03, 2013 - link@ganeshts
I'm curious, what did you use for DXVA2N testing of VC-1?
LAV Video doesn't support VC-1 DXVA2 on Intel, at least on Ivy Bridge, and i doubt Haswell changed much (although it would be a nice surprise, i'll see for myself in a few days) Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkHendrik,
I made a note that DXVA2N for interlaced VC-1 has software fallback.
That issue is still not fixed in Haswell. That is why you see QuickSync consuming lower power compared to DXVA2N for the interlaced VC-1 sample. Reply
zilexa - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkTo be honest, now that I have a near-perfect Raspberry setup, I would never buy a Core ix/AMD Ax HTPC anymore. Huge waiste of money for almost un-noticable image quality improvement.
The Raspberry Pi will use max 6.5w, usually much lower. Speed in XBMC is no issue anymore, and it plays back all my movies just fine (Batman imax x264 rip 7-15MBps). I play mostly downloaded tv shows, streams and occasionally a movie. It also takes care of the whole download process in the background. So I don't even have a computer anymore at home. I sold my old AMD 780G based Silverstone M2 HTPC for €170 and it was the best decision ever.
Still cool to read about the high end possibilities of HTPC/MadVR or actually just video playback and encoding, cos thats what this is really about. But I would never buy a system to be able to support this. HTPC in my opinion is to be in a lazy mode and able to playback your shows/movies/watch your photos and streams in good HD quality and audio.
If you need HTPC, in my opinion there is no need for such an investment in a computer system which is meant for a huge variety of computing tasks. Reply
jwcalla - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkIt's going to depend on individual needs of course, and I think your Raspberry Pi is on the other end of the extreme, but otherwise I kind of have the same reaction. This has got to be an $800+ build here for an HTPC and then I begin to wonder if this is a practical approach.
Owing to the fact that Intel's entire marketing strategy is to oversell to the consumer (i.e., sell him much more than he really needs), it seems that sometimes these reviews follow the strategy too closely. For an HTPC? Core i3 at the max. And even that's being generous. If one needs certain workloads like transcoding and such then maybe a higher end box is needed. But then I question if that kind of stuff is appropriate for an HTPC. Reply
superjim - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkPlayback a raw M2TS 1080p 60fps file on your Pi and get back to me. Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkHow did you get around the "interface is not accelerated" issue on the RPi? I found it completely useless when trying to navigate the XBMC interface itself (you know, to select the show to watch). Sure, once the video was loaded, and processing moved over to the hardware decoder, things ran smooth as silk.
I sold my RPi two weeks after receiving it due to this issue. Just wasn't worth the headaches. Since moved to a quad-core AthlonII running off an SSD with a fanless nVidia dGPU. So much nicer to work with. Reply
vlado08 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkWhat about Frame Rate Conversion (FRC) capability? Reply
ericgl21 - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkGanesh,
Let's assume you have two 4K/60p video files playing in a loop at the same time for a duration of 3 hours.
Is it possible that Iris or Iris Pro could play those two video streams at the same time, without dropping frames and without the processor throttling throughout the entire movie playback ?
I mean, connecting two 4K TVs, one to the HDMI port and the other to the DisplayPort, and outputting each video to each TV. Would you say the Iris / Iris Pro is up to this task? Could you test this scenario? Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkHaven't come across a 4Kp60 sample yet. All the stuff on YouTube is at a max. of 30 fps, and I have some samples sourced from other platforms that are QuadFHD at 30 fps. Please pass on any 4Kp60 clips that you have.
I know there are two crazy scene encodes with 4Kp50 (Crowd Run 2160p) and a 250 Mbps one (Ducks Take Off). No hardware decoder I have seen has been able to handle either properly. So, I doubt 4Kp60 is going to work :| That said, if I get a chance, I will definitely evaluate the Iris / Iris Pro. Reply
madwolfa - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkWhy do you still need 23.96 support since "Smooth Motion" feature in MadVR? I couldn't care less now... Reply
Dug - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkBecause not everyone can, wants to, or even knows what MadVR is. Never mind setting it up properly. Reply
HOSH - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkPersonally this is going in the right direction, but I am wondering what low power settings we could use with the Core i7-4750HQ or the Core i7-4770R in an Mini-ITX HTPC style board since they both have the Iris Pro 5200. From reading the reviews here the Iris Pro 5200 should be closer to what NVIDIA or AMD currently has to offer in the HTPC discrete graphics, but on die for a cleaner system. Reply
Aikouka - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkIs it worthwhile to assume that the poor QuickSync performance is just a software problem? I've been interested in gaining QuickSync support, but the performance presented isn't that enticing. Reply
ganeshts - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkVery much possible. I am going to evaluate a driver downgrade to see if the issue is in the latest drivers. Reply
superjim - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkWhy do we need an i7 for HTPC duty? A 45W Core 2 Duo or Athlon II system is plenty using a 6570/430 and up GPU. Sure it uses more power but that's hardly a problem (both in money and heat). What is the usage scenario for an HTPC that needs an i7? Reply
Aikouka - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkThey probably didn't have access to a lower-end Haswell processor... especially since Intel hasn't released the i3 Haswell processors yet. Reply
superjim - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkMakes sense but even an i3 is overkill for an HTPC as another commenter suggested. I think Trinity has a pretty tight grip on the bang-for-the-buck HTPC right now. Richland will only make that better. Reply
Penti - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkIt really depends on the amount of post processing done on the HEPC, a Trinity/Richland or Intel with integrated graphics or something like a HD6450 really isn't enough for all. Obviously a fast CPU is good as a fallback when there is no hardware acceleration too. Reply
Penti - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkPlus old hardware is old and not available anymore. Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkQuad-core Athlon-II, CPU fan configured to spin down as needed, case fan unplugged, SSD, nVidia 210 GPU (fanless) running Linux + XBMC. Sub-$300 CDN.
Why would you need an i7 for an HTPC? Why would you need a skookum dGPU? And why would you be transcoding on the HTPC? The HTPC should just play the movies on the screen that's attached to it, nothing more. The movies shouldn't reside on the HTPC, and you should be plugging in mobile devices to transfer movies to/from them. That's what the skookum "server" in the other room is for. :) Reply
solnyshok - Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - linkThis is quite old thread, but I wanted to add, that it strikes me that my htpc usage model is totally different from the one you described. I use Atom based htpc (dualcore 2.1GHz) which is on 24x7, doing playback to HDMI 1080p tv and torrents and file serving for home network. it is up to 10w and fanless. No MadVR though. Reply
benamoo - Monday, June 03, 2013 - linkI'm wondering why no one mentioned the upcoming Ouya console and possibly many more ARM based media player boxes coming to the market next year.
I've been an HTPC user for years now, but it's not worth it anymore to invest in such a costly/bulky/noisy system simply for HTPC tasks. Sure, repurposing an old system is great, actually that's what I've been doing, but building a new one from scratch (especially with a Core i7) seems to be a huge waste of money IMO.
I have high hopes for Ouya (and similar ARM/Android powered boxes). Hopefully the experience would be so good that we can finally rid ourselves of this Wintel duopoly.
Don't get me wrong. I still believe an HTPC is the best media center box out there. But these boxes can offer very similar results with a fraction of the cost. Reply
rennya - Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - linkMainly because those ARM players has crappy GUI and limited support for file formats and containers? Try playing a Matroska file that used segment linking, has a 10-bit H.264 1080p24 video stream with at least 10Mb bitrate, a DTS-HD MA 7.1 track and also a fully-styled SSA subtitle track and you will see that Ouya console crashed and burned while doing so. Reply
sireangelus - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkCan someone explain to me why they don't get themselves a laptop with some remote functionality and use that as an htpc? shouldn't it be less expensive, have a lower tdp and be more useful? Reply
HisDivineOrder - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkI sincerely hope they fixed the 23.976 bug in the IGP that is included with Bay Trail. If they did, there's your HTPC of choice for anyone not obsessed with MadVR. Reply
halbhh2 - Tuesday, June 04, 2013 - linkSuch a careful review makes me want to have the new A10 6700 put through the same paces. Reply
majorleague - Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - linkHere is a youtube link showing 3dmark11 and windows index rating for the 4770k 3.5ghz Haswell. Not overclocked.
Youtube link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Yo2A__1Xw Reply
eio - Saturday, June 22, 2013 - linkaccording to the snapshots, to my eyes, the QSV quality of HD4600 is significantly better than HD4000 & x264... Reply
Surlias - Friday, December 06, 2013 - linkHey, I just bought my first 120 Hz capable HDTV, and I'm wondering how to configure it for both gaming and proper 24p media playback. Can I set the a custom resolution of 1920x1080 @ 120 Hz (GTX 770) just like you can with a 120 Hz monitor, and then leave it at that setting all the time? Then games would be able to do VSync up to 120 fps, and media would be able to lock in at 24p because it's an even divisor of 120. Or is this not possible on a TV due to HDMI limitations? If this is the case, then will it be necessary to manually switch back and forth between 60Hz and a 24 Hz custom resolution depending on the usage situation (since 24 Hz would be awful for gaming)? I've always found this particular subject confusing and I'm hoping someone can help me understand how this works. FYI, I mostly use XBMC for media playback, which has an option to "sync to display refresh rate", which I assume would be essential for enabling 24p playback. Reply
redmist77 - Tuesday, April 08, 2014 - linkI'm amazed at how well Haswell locks the video and audio sync. I can output 23.976Hz video to my plasma TV and all of the AV sync graphs in MediaPortal or MPC-HC are *dead* flat and there's never a stutter. 24Hz, 50Hz and 59.94Hz are all perfect too. That's possibly the holy grail of a HTPC. I haven't found any other bugs (DXVA2 etc.) either so it's looking good. DTS-HD, Dolby True HD bit streaming also works perfectly. 0-255 RGB HDMI output requires a registry fix but that's no big deal (default is 16-235)
The next great challenge is a gaming HTPC that uses Intel 4600 for video and a giant PCI-E card when launching a game ;) I've sort of got it working using DisplaySwitch.exe and two HDMI inputs on my AV receiver but it's not quite seamless. Reply
khmara - Friday, May 30, 2014 - linkThe flickering that is seen during the test with the Haswell in 4k on the Seiki 4k TV was due to Intel graphics settings having the refresh rate default at 29. If you manually change it to 30 the flickering is eliminated. Reply
Tassadar - Thursday, June 12, 2014 - linkHi all,
I have a HTPC with an intel haswell and I can't get 23,97 fps, I have 24 even if i set 23 in intel panel properties.
I have run CustomModeApp.exe but I only can enter entire numbers (no decimals) in the frequency. I also have try 23 but doesn't allow me to accept.
Any help?
Thanks Reply
Gadgety - Monday, August 18, 2014 - link"... but the HDMI link never got locked (the display would keep flickering on and off). The frequency of locking was inversely proportional to the HDMI cable length... We will update this section as and when we reach closure on the issue with ASRock / Intel."
This was in June 2013. Still no closure after 13 months? Reply


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Opener registers a hat-trick of hundreds
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Learn the basics with our How To Knit guide, including common abreviations and terms: Casting On, Knit & Purl a Stitch, Measuring Tension, Increasing & Decreasing Stitches, Cables, Lace & Eyelet Stitches, Yarn Forward, Yarn Round Needle and more. If you're a Row@n member why not view our Video Tutorial section for members, where you can learn Knitting & Crochet from the basics to complicated techniques.
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Manufacturer: Adley
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Strength: Omeprazole 20 mg, Domperidone 10 mg
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Active ingredient: Omeprazole + Domperidone
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Lanier Islands
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Join us for the SEPTEMBER FULL MOON PARTY! The Neons will be performing live on the Sunset Cove Stage as we dance the night away on the beach under the stars. Hang out by the outdoor fire pits and enjoy great food and beverage specials, including all new menu items at the completely renovated Sunset Cove Restaurant! You'll get to party with great entertainers, including stilt-walkers, magicians, and even fire breathers! It's party time after dark at Sunset Cove, and you don't want to miss the best event on the Lake this year!


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List of best Oncologist Doctors from trusted hospitals in Salt Lake, Kolkata. Get detailed info on educational qualification, experience and other credentials of Oncologist Doctors in Salt Lake, Kolkata. Check OPD schedule and book appointment online with best Oncologist from top hospitals in Salt Lake, Kolkata. Call 8010- 994- 994 to talk to in-house Credihealth experts for FREE medical assistance to choose the right Oncologist, get options for Second Opinion or other other medical assistance.
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Cotton 28% Polyester 2% Spandex
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text: By Ellen Chang NEW YORK ( MainStreet)--Buying the popular stocks or initial public offerings touted by institutional investors or popular traders may appear to be a good opportunity. exchange traded funds or other investments which provide long-term growth. The majority of your investments should be in mutual funds, advises Heriberto Latigo, a Houston, Tex. trader for a private oil trading company. "You want mutual funds, so it is easier to diversify risks," he said. "Mutual funds are actively managed. The flexibility is perfect for the majority of the investors." Investors should research whether the mutual funds are a value or growth play, said Andrew Valentine Pool, a portfolio manager for Regatta Research & Money Management, LLC, which is based in New Orleans. He recommends purchasing a mutual fund index. "Let the portfolio managers of the mutual funds do all the work, because it helps you spread your risk around," he said. John McDonough, president and CEO of the Studemont Group based in The Woodlands, Tex., recommends that investors buy exchange traded funds, because they trade like a stock. Mutual funds only price at the end of the day after the markets close. "Timing a market is fool's gold," he said. "There is so much risk that you don't know about." While buying Google or Facebook's stocks seem like a good opportunity to make some cash, Latigo said most individuals need to stay away from purchasing stocks unless they have $250,000 in liquid investments. "This is my mantra," he said. "I don't recommend anyone buying stocks."


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Second man reports New Mexico police forced him to undergo invasive medical exams to find drugs
Another man, another minor traffic violation, another incident with Leo the K-9 and another example of the violation of a man's body.
Police reports state deputies stopped Timothy Young because he turned without putting his blinker on.
Again, Leo the K-9 alerts on Young's seat.
Young is taken to the Gila Regional Medical Center in Silver City, and just like Eckert, he's subjected to medical procedures including x-rays of his stomach and an anal exam.


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quote:Originally posted by AlexThat's not fair that they got rid of the St. John's Maple LeafsThe reason is Mr Ferguson wanted more people in attendance. Again, a selfish businessman taking over a great hoceky tradition. BOOO.Kipper for Lundqvist?
quote:Originally posted by AlexJust a note: a good percent of the favourites, the ones that get a lot of media attention, are Canadian. AHL... you sure?
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A woman in Colorado was pushed over the edge by her boyfriend's incessant singing of the hit song "Thrift Shop" by Macklemore and Ryan Lewis.
According to a police report obtained by The Smoking Gun, 23-year-old Samantha Malson pushed and choked her boyfriend, Lars Hansen, after he belted out the hip-hop tune 25 times in a row and refused to stop.
The couple was very intoxicated and had been arguing all night after Hansen accused Malson of consuming all the alcohol in the house, The Smoking Gun reported.
Malson admitted to the crime after police showed up, officers told the Longmont Daily Times-Call.
She now faces charges of assault, harassment and domestic violence, according to a Boulder County Sheriff's Office report.
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B00E2RHL5E Used good or better, we ship best copy available! Book Only. Expedited shipping is 2-6 business days after shipment, standard is 4-14 business days after shipment. Used items do not include access codes, cd's or other accessories, regardless of what is stated in item title. If you need to guarantee that these items are included, please purchase a brand new copy. Bookseller Inventory #
Title: DeGarmo's Materials and Processes in ...
Publisher: Wiley,2011
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Book Description Wiley,2011, 2008. Hardcover. Book Condition: Good. Ships with Tracking Number! INTERNATIONAL WORLDWIDE Shipping available. May not contain Access Codes or Supplements. Buy with confidence, excellent customer service!. Bookseller Inventory # XH0E2RHL5E
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Services required: painting 1 x bedroom smallish bedroom needs painting and new oak door...
Very tidy . Came when promised. Very satisfied with work done. Would recommend to others.
Would highly recommend, they were extremely punctual, friendly and reliable. We booked the job with quite short notice but Natasha and her team where extremely flexible and worked all hours to make sure the work was completed on time. We needed our flat to be painted within a day and they arrived at 7.30am and stayed working until at least 11pm to make sure it was done. Good value and very easy to work with! Will 100% be using again for future jobs
Great team, work completed on time, as requested and for the price agreed. Thanks
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Inside the Titan Supercomputer: 299K AMD x86 Cores and 18.6K NVIDIA GPUsby Anand Lal Shimpi on 10/31/2012 1:28 AM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
- IT Computing
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- GPUs
130 Comments
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karasaj - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWe should see what kinds of frames we get :)
(Yes you'd have single threaded cpu bottleneck, but I can dream) Reply
N4g4rok - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI bet that microstutter's a bastard though. Reply
Alexvrb - Saturday, November 03, 2012 - linkPut it in AFR mode! :P Reply
hansmuff - Sunday, November 04, 2012 - linkHmm, with this kind of power, just render ALL POSSIBLE frames ahead for a full second, and just flip the display to the framebuffer that corresponds to the gameplay :) Reply
Rookierookie - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkYes, but can it run Crysis? Reply
SilthDraeth - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWrong question. The correct question is;
Will it blend? Reply
losttsol - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkYes it can, as long as Crysis isn't running on top of Windows Vista. Reply
inighthawki - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWhat does Vista have to do with this? Reply
RussianSensation - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkOver 9000 fps!
Good to see GPUs gaining traction outside of videogames, paving way for their use as a general purpose devices that can benefit a wide variety of usage patterns outside of games :) Hopefully the profits from these will mean even better GPUs for us gamers down the line. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Saturday, November 10, 2012 - linkYou mean nVidia GPU's gaining traction, and far outperforming amd cores. Reply
UltraTech79 - Monday, November 05, 2012 - linkIt could simulate a cpu/gpu though minecraft redstore that could play Crysis at 4K better than anything any of us have. Reply
yottabit - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkProbably about 5-10% more than 4 way SLI. LOL Reply
martixy - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkAnd where exactly do you see a parallel between game code and a complex project like one of those? Reply
karasaj - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkI'm not sure if you're trolling or don't get it. Reply
This Guy - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkLooked on Bench. I can't find 18,688x Tesla K20's any where. I also looked for 18,688x AMD Optrons. This ain't like Anandtech. Normally Bench is updated when the article is released. Reply
jleach1 - Sunday, November 04, 2012 - link1GPU per CPU. No Sli here.
These clusters dont parralelize workload like SLI does. Reply
lambchowder - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - link50 spreadsheets per second Reply
mike55 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThis is pretty awesome. I'm jealous you got to go. The comment about the thickness requirement of the cables for 480V compared to 208V in the first power delivery video is staggering. I'm surprised there's such a difference.
Some of the videos seem to be stopping early when I play them, and I have to skip ahead a bit to continue watching. Reply
Peanutsrevenge - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI've had that problem with all youtube videos when I watch the HD stream for a while.
It's not specific to Anandtech at all, for me at least.
This doesn't happen with <480p video.
Nice to know it's not just me Reply
B3an - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkSame. For me, most YouTube vids will get about 75% of the way through and then stop.
And great article. Reply
Strunf - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkHe's probably not telling the whole thing, there's no way you could reduce the wire thickness by 20 or more by just increasing the voltage to 480V. Reply
A5 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkUh, yes you can. Higher voltage = less current for the same power, which means you can use a thinner cable. Reply
Kevin G - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThere is likely a reduction in size of the insulating layer due to lower amperage as well. Reply
relztes - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkVoltage is 2.3 times higher, so current is 2.3 times lower for the same power. A wire 2.3x thinner (5.3x less cross sectional area) will give the same power loss. Insulation thickness would be slightly higher because it's based on voltage not current. Reply
HighTech4US - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIf you double the Voltage you halve the Current for the same amount of Power.
Power Loss (in the cables) is calculated as I squared times R. Since I is 1/2 at 480 Volts the Power Loss is 1/4 (1/2 squared) as much. Reply
HighTech4US - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - link> The comment about the thickness requirement of the cables for 480V compared to 208V in the first power delivery video is staggering. I'm surprised there's such a difference.
V = Voltage
I = Current
R = Resistance
P = Power
P = V times I
So if you double the Voltage you halve the Current for the same amount of Power.
Power Loss (in the cables) is calculated as I squared times R. Since I is 1/2 at 480 Volts the Power Loss is 1/4 (1/2 squared) as much.
So they determined a fixed power loss in the cables and reduced the size (which increased the resistance) of the cables so that the thinner cables (at 480 volts) had the same loss as the thicker cables (at 208 volts). Reply
Jaybus - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkA 480 Vrms circuit draws less than half the current of a 208 Vrms circuit at the same power level. So the resistance of the wire can be more than double. Resistance of the wire is the resistivity of the copper material times the length divided by the cross-sectional area. .This means the radius is less than half, or the diameter of the wire for 480 V can be less than a quarter of the diameter of the wire for 208 V. Reply
ishbuggy - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThis is an awesome article Anand! I would love to see more super-computing like this, and maybe some in-depth discussion of how super-computing works and differs from traditional computing architectures. Thanks for the great article though! Reply
truman5 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - link+1
I just registered as a user just to say how awesome this article is! Reply
itnAAnti - Friday, November 09, 2012 - link+1
I also just registered just to say that this is a great article! One of the best I have seen on Anandtech, keep up the awesome work. Perhaps you can look into the Parallella Adapteva project next! Reply
mayankleoboy1 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIs there any scope of a FPGA or a group of FPGA's that replace standard algorithms with hardware implementations ?
Example : Fourier transforms, matrix multiplication. Reply
prashanth07 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkYes, there is significant research going on. In our lab we had a pretty big group working of using FPGAs for HPC. The RC based supercomputer is called Novo-G. It was the worlds biggest publicly known RC super computer.
It is very small in physical size compared to some of the top conventional super computer, but for some specific compute requirements it comes close to beating top supercomputers. There was a major upgrade planned (around the time I was graduating) so it might even better now.
What exact type of computations? I don't remember very well (I didn't work on RC, I was mostly s/w guy in conventional HPC part of lab), you might be able to get some info by checking out few posters or papers abstract.
http://hcs.ufl.edu/ (very outdated, We didn't had anyone updating this site regularly)
http://www.alligator.org/news/campus/article_36cb1... (very abstract, low on specific info) Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkJust think, if Moore's law holds for another few decades, you'll see this performance in a smartphone in 20-30 years... Reply
Montrey - Saturday, November 03, 2012 - linkhttp://www.top500.org/blog/2008/01/20/top500_proje...
According to the paper, it takes 6 to 8 years for the #1 computer on the list to move to #500, and then another 8 to 10 years for that performance to be available in your average notebook computer. Not sure on notebook to smartphone, but it can't be very long. Reply
Doh! - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThis kind of article keeps me coming back to anandtech.com. Awesome stuff. Reply
bl4C - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkindeed, i was thinking:
"now THIS is an anandtech.com article"
great, thx ! Reply
gun_will_travel - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWith all the settings turned up. Reply
dragonsqrrl - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkAnand, I just want to confirm the core count on the Tesla K20. So this means one of the 15 SMX blocks is disabled on the K20? Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWe're basing our numbers off of the figures published by HPCWire.
For a given clockspeed of 732MHz and DP performance of 1.3TFLOPs, it has to be 14 SMXes. The math doesn't work for anything else. Reply
RussianSensation - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThe article only states a range for DP of 1.2-1.3 Tflops.
The specification could be 705mhz with GPU boost to 732mhz x 2496 CUDA cores ~ 1.22 Tflops
Not saying it can't be 2688 CUDA cores but you are using the high-end of the range when the article clearly lists a range of 1.2-1.3Tflops. I don't think you can just assume that it's 2688 without a confirmation given the range of values provided. Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWe have other reasons to back our numbers, though I can't get into them. Suffice it to say, if we didn't have 100% confidence we would not have used it. Reply
RussianSensation - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkHey Ryan, what about this?
The Jaguar is thus renamed into Titan, and the sheer numbers are quite impressive:
46,645,248 CUDA Cores (yes, that's 46 million)
299,008 x86 cores
91.25 TB ECC GDDR5 memory
584 TB Registered ECC DDR3 memory
Each x86 core has 2GB of memory
1 Node = the new Cray XK7 system, consists of 16-core AMD Opteron CPU and one Nvidia Tesla K20 compute card.
The Titan supercompute has 18,688 nodes.
46,645,248 CUDA Cores / 18,688 Nodes = 2,496 CUDA cores per 1 Tesla K20 card. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkAmong other things: note that Titan has 6GB of memory per K20 (and this is published information).
"The upgrade includes the Tesla K20 GPU accelerators, a replacement of the compute modules to convert the system's 200 cabinets to a Cray XK7 supercomputer, and 710 terabytes of memory."
18,688 nodes, each with 32GB of RAM + 6GB of VRAM = 710,144 GB
(Press agencies are bad about using power of 10, hence "710" TB). Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkThe 6GB number is also in the slide deck: http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/NVIDIA/T... Reply
RussianSensation - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkTom's Hardware reported that Titan Supercomputer Packs 46,645,248 Nvidia CUDA Cores
46,645,248 CUDA Cores / 18,688 Tesla K20s also gives 2,496 CUDA cores per GPU, instead of 2,688. Reply
ypsylon - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkGreat article. Fantastic way of showing to us tiny PC users what really big stuff looks like. Data center is one thing, but my word this stuff is, is... well that is Ultimate Computing Pr0n. For people who will never ever have a chance to visit one of the super computer centers it is quite something. Enjoyed that very much!
If we get that kind of performance in phones then it is really scary prospect. :D Reply
twotwotwo - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWe currently have 1-billion-transistor chips. We'd get from there to 128 trillion, or Titan-magnitude computers, after 17 iterations of Moore's Law, or about 25 years. If you go 25 years back, it's definitely enough of a gap that today's technology looks like flying cars to folks of olden times. So even if 128-trillion-transistor devices isn't exactly what happens, we'll have *something* plenty exciting on the other end.
*Something*, but that may or may not be huge computers. It may not be an easy exponential curve all the way. We'll almost certainly put some efficiency gains towards saving cost and energy rather than increasing power, as we already are now. And maybe something crazy like quantum computers, rather than big conventional computers, will be the coolest new thing.
I don't imagine those powerful computers, whatever they are, will all be doing simulations of physics and weather. One of the things that made some of today's everyday tech hard to imagine was that the inputs involved (social graphs, all the contents of the Web, phones' networks and sensors) just weren't available--would have been hard, before 1980, to imagine trivially having a metric of your connectedness to an acquaintance (like Facebook's 'mutual friends') or having ads matching your interest.
I'm gonna say that 25 years out the data, power, and algorithms will be available to everyone to make things that look like Strong AI to anyone today. Oh, and the video games will be friggin awesome. If we don't all blow each other up in the next couple-and-a-half decades, of course. Any other takers? Whoever predicts it best gets a beer (or soda) in 25 years, if practical. Reply
JAH - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkMust've been a fun trip for a geek/nerd. I'm jealous!
Question, what do they do with the old CPUs that got replaced? Resale, recycled, donation? Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI'd wondering which model Opterons they threw in there. The Interlagos chips were barely faster and used more power than the Magny-Cours CPUs they were destined to replace, though I'm sure these are so heavily taxed that the Bulldozer architecture would shine through in the end.
Okay, I've checked - these are 6274s, which are Interlagos and clocked at 2.2GHz base with an ACP of 80W and a TDP of 115W apiece. This must be the CPU purchase mentioned prior to Bulldozer's launch. Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI WAS wondering, rather. Too early for posting, it seems. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIt was an awesome trip, seriously one of the best. Talking to Dr. Messer was one of the highlights for sure, that guy is insanely smart and very passionate about his work.
Old hardware is traded in when you order the next round of upgrades :)
Take care,
Anand Reply
Jaybus - Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - linkYes, great work! I suggest seeing about a trip to IBM Research or HRL Labs to investigate the DARPA SynAPSE project. That could be another really interesting trip and article. Reply
Mumrik - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI guess we're finally beyond the bad "But will it run Crysis?" jokes.
This was pretty amazing to watch. The challenges of putting something together at that scale are fascinating and intimidating. Reply
dishayu - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI am sad to never even have visited a datacenter. Would love to take a tour like this some day.
And also, gaming finally started paying off in real world as well, that's pretty sweet as well. :D Reply
poohbear - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linksure but can it play crysis?? Reply
GTRagnarok - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWouldn't it be so much more power efficient if they were able to use Intel's chips? Maybe they will redesign the whole thing in the future. Reply
A5 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIt would, but you'd have to take that up with Cray. Reply
Reikon - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkDid anyone else notice on the second picture of the Titan Installation gallery that the guy is using a ridiculous amount of thermal paste for each CPU? Reply
IanCutress - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIn this environment, where stability is key, he was probably taught that having a bit more is safer than having a bit less. No doubt the data center was designed around airflow software to ensure that heating issues do not arise based on an 'average' application of thermal material. Reply
maximumGPU - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkhere's to us gamers for advancing science and making the world a better place.
You're welcome!
Awesome article. Reply
piroroadkill - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThat sounds like a downgrade, no matter how you slice it.. Reply
extide - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkx2 I was thinking the same, especially at only 2.2Ghz!! I bet they are ~flat on CPU power and all the gain is from the GPU's. Reply
SunLord - Friday, November 02, 2012 - linkHPC is all highly multi-threaded by it's very nature which just happens to be about the only thing bulldozer is some what good at Reply
Jorange - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI wonder how many Petaflops this beast would have achieved if it used Sandy Bridge EP class chips? Anandtech's review of the Opteron 6276 vs Sandy Bridge Xeon EP showed that Intel was far more performant. Reply
SunLord - Friday, November 02, 2012 - linkI doubt will make enough of difference to be worth it given the main focus is all on the cuda gpu compute side Reply
CeriseCogburn - Saturday, November 10, 2012 - linkThe AMD crap cores probably cause huge bottlenecks and lag the entire system and wind up as a large loss overall as they waste computer time. Reply
Jorange - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIn a world in which millions of morons are enthralled by Honey Boo Boo and her band of genetic regressionists, it is great that scientists are advancing our understanding of the Universe. Without those 1%, one can only imagine the state our planet would be in. Reply
IanCutress - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI ported some Brownian motion code from CPU to GPU for my thesis and got a considerable increase (4000x over previously published data). Best thing was that the code scaled with GPUs. Having access to 20k GPUs with 2688 CUDA cores would just be gravy. Especially when simulating 10^12 and beyond independent particles. Reply
maximumGPU - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - link4000x ?! i don't think i've ever seen such a speedup, was that simply from 1 cpu to a 1 gpu?
i ported a monte carlo risk simulation (which also uses brownian motion, although i suspect for different purposes than yours) and saw about 300-400X speed up, thought that was at the top end of what you can get in terms of speed increases. Reply
IanCutress - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkIt helped that the previously published data was a few generations back, so I had some Moore's Law advantage. The type of simulation for that research was essentially dropped there and then because it was so slow, and no-one had ever bothered to do it on newer hardware. I think a 2.2 GHz Nehalem single core simulation of my code compared to a GTX480 version of the code was 350x jump or so. Make that 16 cores vs 1 GPU (for a DP system) and it makes it more like 23x. Reply
Krysto - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIt's 46 million GPU cores:
This is embarrassing. Reply
iMacmatician - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkNo, it's not. BSN's numbers are incorrect. Reply
MetalManTN - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI've read articles on anandtech for years, but I register an account for the first time today to comment on how wonderful this article is. The scope of what is covered in the article is nothing short of fascinating, and the quality of the writing and attention to detail is superb. Thank you! Reply
Creig - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkand we already know the answer is 42. Reply
spaghetti_taco - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkVery interesting article, loved the 30,000 foot explanation of the supernova modeling, really helped me to understand in more concrete detail what types of things scientists are using these supercomputers for.
One thing I'd love to see is more in depth discussion of the networking. As you pointed out, the networking connectivity is just as important as the data processing, but you really just glossed over it. At least something as simple as vendor, models, host bus adapters, etc. Reply
WaitingForNehalem - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkAnand, you should have visited me at the University of Tennessee! Reply
zero2dash - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI want to work there. :D
Holy Santa Claus shit. I think I'd need a motorized cart for the tour; I'd be too weak to walk.
Great article and major kudos for all the photos...a few of these are gonna be desktop wallpapers. ;) Reply
BSMonitor - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIf they used Sandy Bridge Xeon's, that'd be about 4 Mega Watts and no giant pipes with coolant!! Reply
Braincruser - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkAnd new motherboards, memory systems, optimisations... practically they would have to exclude the GPU's to fit it in any realistic spending. Reply
JMC2000 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkProblem is, there more than likely was a queue of clients that couldn't wait for ORNL/Cray to completely replace every node, which would have taken much longer. Reply
Death666Angel - Thursday, November 08, 2012 - linkWhen they built this, the Intel stuff wasn't better than AMDs. And now they already have all this hardware which is tuned for the AMD stuff. Wouldn't make sense to update to Intel this time. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Saturday, November 10, 2012 - linkWouldn't make sense only because nVidia is smoking the daylights out of the barely over 2Pflops from crap AMD cpus, adding multiple DOZENS of Pflops.
So neither Intel nor AMD can hang. Reply
wwwcd - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkMoore's law will be broken...at basement and the above ;) Reply
tomek1984 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThus even four years since the release of the original Crysis, "but can it run Crysis?" is still an important question, and the answer is finally "yes, it can" LOL Reply
davegraham - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkAnand,
you missed a huge data item in your article. by saying it's "just a bunch of SATA drives" you completely glossed over the WAY those SATA drives are organized (by DDN). DDN uses a wide/shallow bus topology to keep parallel writes going to the drives organized and processed in a VERY optimal manner. consequently, they're able to ingest at over 6GB/s per head...now, multiply that across the requirements from ORNL and you can see why this becomes important.
next time, don't just skip over it. ;)
D Reply
webmastir - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - link9 million $ a year to power it? Yikes.
Either way, I'm glad to have this in my state :) Reply
mikato - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkLots of hydroelectric in Tennessee :) Reply
bill.rookard - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI just can't imagine trying to build a program that scales up to that kind of performance, it's just staggering.
That being said, I have this little program I'd like to run on it... called... SkyNet.... Reply
mfenn - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI want more coverage of big iron! Hope you talk about it in depth on the podcast as well. Reply
harezzebra - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkHi Anand,
please do a indepth virtualization review, as you did earlier. your review is must for latest virtualization offerings from vmware, microsoft and citrix for unbiased decision making.
harsh Reply
mdlam - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWill it run Crysis? Reply
tspacie - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkDid you get any information about the network (yarc-2 , gemini) ? Cray's claim to fame has been their network architecture which is supposed to be a key contributor to the actual performance of the supercomputer. Reply
thebluephoenix - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkThey should have used Radeons 7970. You can buy 6 for the price of one K20, no ECC though (and for that is Fire Pro S). Reply
HighTech4US - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkToy GPUs have no place in HPC Computers. Reply
thebluephoenix - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - link1TFLOPS Double precision Toy?
http://i.top500.org/system/177154 Reply
garadante - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkYou missed the point in the article saying ECC memory was a -must- for a usage scenario like this. With nearly 20,000 GPUs, and all of that information being continuously communicated between the GPU memory and the GPU itself, without ECC, errors would pop up very quickly, and would make useful computation nigh impossible. Reply
HighTech4US - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkCan you guaranty that the Toy GPU you recommend would not produce a single error on a software run that takes 6 months?
You may accept an occasional graphics glitch while gaming but no HPC customer will. Reply
RussianSensation - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIt's also about the specific software that works better with CUDA. GCN GPUs are no toys but the software support is nowhere near as prevalent in the professional GPGPU space compared to what NV has accomplished. This makes a lot of sense since NV essentially invented the GPGPU space starting with G80 in 2006. They spent a lot more money creating the CUDA eco-system and making sure they were the pioneers in this space. Given the higher widespread adoption of CUDA and proven track record of working with NV, larger companies are far more likely to go with Nvidia.
This is actually no different than what we saw in the Distributed Computing space. For more than half a decade, NV's GPUs were faster in many apps. As the DC community is more dynamic and adopts much quicker to moder code and technologies, in the last 3 years, almost all of the new DC projects are dominated by AMD GPUs.
On paper, HD7970 GE delivers 1.075 TFlops of DP and an 1200mhz 7970 has 1.23 Tflops. Without software support, for now it doesn't mean much in the professional space but the horsepower is already there. Reply
mikato - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkIs this the supercomputer that will also be crunching away on the massive amount of data NSA is storing on everyone from strategic points in the telecom backbone?
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadat... Reply
Luscious - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI'm curious if they ever went near F@H during burn-in and testing to see how much PPD that supercomputer could do. Reply
just4U - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - link"The evolution of Cray's XT/XK lines simply stemmed from that point, with Opteron being the supported CPU of choice."
I would have liked more of explaination here.. Does that mean that Intel's line doesn't work as well? Are there plans by Cray to move to Intel?
Power draw must be key. I wonder what sort of power use they'd be looking at running Intel's proccessors.
Great to see AMD in that super computer though.. I just have questions about future plans based on the current situation in the cpu market. Reply
Th-z - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkVery nice article and love your last paragraph, Anand. It's a revelation. It is indeed incredible to think when we wanted that 3D accelerator to play GLQuake, it actually turned the wheel for great things to come. To think back, something as ordinary or insignificant as gaming actually paved the way to accelerate our knowledge today. This goes to show even ordinary things can morph into great things that one can never imagine. It really humbles you to not look down anything, to be respectful in this intertwined world, the same way it humbles us as human beings as we know more about the universe. Reply
pman6 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkso that's where all of AMD's revenue came from.
I was wondering who was buying AMD products Reply
CeriseCogburn - Saturday, November 10, 2012 - linkWhat amd revenue ?
Just look up and down, left and right here, the amd fanboys are legion - granted they can barely bone up 10 cents a week, but after a few years they can buy 2 generations back. Reply
lorribot - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWonder if PC game piracy will be blamed for the failure of the supercomputer industry? Reply
Braincruser - Saturday, November 03, 2012 - linkWell, you see the more someone pirates games, the more money he has to invest in hardware. So the better the hardware gets. <- nothing beats simple logic. Reply
ClagMaster - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkI have been working with supercomputers for 25 years.
Although parallelism is very important for processing large models, there is one important feature Mr Anand failed to discuss about Titain, choosing instead to obscess about transistor count and CPU's and GPU's.
And that is how much memory per box is available. 96GB? 256GB? of DDR3-1333 memory?
Problem is usually memory for those large reactor or coupled neutron-gamma transport problems analyzed with Monte Carlo or Advanced Discrete Ordinates, not the number of processors. Need lots of memory for the geometry, depleteable materials, and cross-section data.
And once the computing is done, how much space is available for storing the results? I have seen models so large that they run for 2 weeks with over 2000 processors only to fail because the file storage system ran out of space to store the output files. Reply
garadante - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkYou failed to read the entire article. Anand stated there was something like 32 GB of RAM per CPU and 6 GB per GPU (if I remember correctly, going off the top of my head) for a grand total of 710 TB RAM total as well as 1 PB of HDD storage available. Check back through the pages to find what exactly he posted. Reply
chemist1 - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkSo Sandy Bridge does ~160 GFlops on the LINPACK benchmark, while Titan should do ~20 PFlops, making it 125K times faster. 125K ~ 2^17, so with 17 doublings a PC will be as fast as Titan. If we assume 1.5 years/doubling, that gives us 25 years. And just imagine the capabilities of a 2037 supercomputer.... Reply
pandemonium - Wednesday, October 31, 2012 - linkWhat a treat, for you, to be able to witness this. Thanks for the adventurous article, Anand! :) Reply
martixy - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkThank you for this article! It was absolutely awesome to read through it and a nice break from the usual consumer stuff.
Faith in humanity restored... :) Reply
bigboxes - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkI want to see the Performance tab on Windows Task Manager! :o Reply
Abi Dalzim - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkWe all know the answer is 42. Reply
easp - Thursday, November 01, 2012 - linkFor all the people speculating or suggesting that they should have used AMD GPUs or Intel CPUs, I think you need to think more like engineers, and less like "cowboys."
To get started, reread this:
"By adding support for ECC, enabling C++ and easier Visual Studio integration, NVIDIA believes that Fermi will open its Tesla business up to a group of clients that would previously not so much as speak to NVIDIA. ECC is the killer feature there."
Now, why on earth would ECC memory on a GPU (which, apparently, AMD wasn't offering) be important? The answer is simple: because a supercomputer that doesn't produce trustworthy results is worse than useless. Shaving some money off the power and cooling budget, or even a 50% boost to raw performance and/or price performance doesn't really matter if the results of calculations that take weeks or months to run can't be trusted.
Since this machine gets much of its compute performance from GPU operations, it is essential that it use GPUs that support ECC memory to allow both detection and recovery from memory corruption.
As to the CPUs, I'm not suggesting that Intel CPUs are significantly less computationally sound than AMDs, but Cray and ORNL already have extensive experience with AMDs CPUs and supporting hardware. Switching to Intel would almost certainly require additional validation work.
And don't underestimate the effort that goes into validating or optimizing these systems. Street price on the raw components alone has to be tens of millions of dollars. You can bet there is a lot of time and effort spent making sure things work right before things make it to full-scale production use.
I know a guy, PhD in Mathematics who used to work for Cray. These days, he's working for Boeing, where his full-time-job, as best as I can understand it, is to make sure that some CFD code they run from NASA is used properly so the results can be trusted. When he worked at Cray, his job was much more technical, he hand-optimized the assembly code for critical portions of application code from Cray's clients so it ran optimally on their vector CPU architecture. When doing computation at this scale things that are completely insignificant on individual consumer systems, or even enterprise servers, can be hugely important. Reply
CeriseCogburn - Monday, November 05, 2012 - link
I note, with 225,000 plus AMD cpu's , they get barely over 2 petaflops.
Add just 18,000 plus nVidia video cards, and ACHIEVE 20+ PETAFLOPS.
LOL - once again, amd sucks, and nVidia does not. Reply
Azethoth - Friday, November 02, 2012 - linkSo you are sitting at home playing monopoly on your iMac? Reply
2kfire - Friday, November 02, 2012 - linkCan someone ban this joker? Reply
Daggarhawk - Friday, November 02, 2012 - linkAnand I LOVE this post. Breath of fresh air to get to see some of the real world applications for all this awesome tech we love. The interviews with scientists are especially fascinating and eye opening. Love the use of video to hear the insights, affect and passion of the researchers and see them at work. Please more of this sort of thing!! Reply
armandc001-tech lover - Saturday, November 03, 2012 - linkdammm what an article....! Reply
philosofa - Saturday, November 03, 2012 - linkThank you Anand!
I've been noting till I'm blue in the face that GK-110 formed Nvidia's backup plan, should the GCN/Kepler power ratio not have worked out as much to AMD's disadvantage as it did (presumably 'Big Fermi' was a similar action plan being enacted).
It's not something I've seen anyone else say explicitly, so it's (confirmation bias aside) just lovely to hear that's your take too :) Reply
galaxyranger - Sunday, November 04, 2012 - linkI am not intelligent in any way but I enjoy reading the articles on this site a great deal. It's probably my favorite site.
What I would like to know is how does Titan compare in power to the CPU that was at the center of the star ship Voyager?
Also, surely a supercomputer like Titan is powerful enough to become self aware, if it had the right software made for it? Reply
Hethos - Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - linkFor your second question, if it has the right software then any high-end consumer desktop PC could become self-aware. It would work rather sluggishly, compared to some sci-fi AIs like those in the Halo universe, but would potentially start learning and teaching itself. Reply
Daggarhawk - Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - linkHethos that is not by any stretch certain. Since "self awareness" or "consciousness" has never been engineered or simulated, it is still quite uncertain what the specific requirements would be to produce it. Yet here you're not only postulating that all it would take would be the right OS but also how well it would perform. My guess is that Titan would much sooner be able to simulate a brain (and therefore be able to learn, think, dream, and do all the things that brains do) much sooner than it would /become/ "a brain" It look a 128 core computer a 10hr run render a few-minute simulation of a complete single celled organism . Hard to say how much more compute power it would take to fully simulate a brain and be able to interact with it in real time. as for other methods of AI, it may take totally different kinds of hardware and networking all together. Reply
quirksNquarks - Sunday, November 04, 2012 - linkThank You,
this was a perfectly timed article - as people have forgotten why it is important the Technology keeps pushing boundaries regardless of *daily use* stagnation.
Also is a great example of why AMD does offer 16-core Chips. For These Kinds of Reasons! More Cores on One Chip means Less Chips are needed to be implemented - powered - tested - maintained.
an AMD 4 socket Mobo offers 64 cores. A personal Supercomputer. (Just think of how many they'll stuff full of ARM cores).
why Nvidia GPUs ?
a) Error Correction Code
b) CUDA
as to the CPUs...
$599 for every AMD 6274 chip (obvi they don't pay as much when ordering 300k).
$1329 for an Intel Sandy Bridge equivalent which isn't really an equivalent considering these do NOT run in 4 socket designs. (obvi a little less when ordering in bulk numbers).
now multiple that price difference (the ratio) in the order of 10's of THOUSANDS!!
COMMON SENSE people.... Less Money for MORE CORES - or - More Money for LESS CORES ?
which road would YOU take? if you were footing the $ Bill.
but the Biggest thing to consider...
ORNL Upgraded from Jaguar <> Titan - which meant they ONLY needed a CHIP upgrade in that regards (( SAME SOCKET )) .. TRY THAT WITH INTEL > :P Reply
phoenicyan - Monday, November 05, 2012 - linkI'd like to see description of logical architecture. I guess it could be 16x16x73 3D Torus. Reply
XyaThir - Saturday, November 10, 2012 - linkNice article, too bad there is nothing about the storage in this HPC cluster! Reply
logain7997 - Tuesday, November 13, 2012 - linkImagine the PPD this baby could produce folding. 0.0 Reply
hyperblaster - Tuesday, December 04, 2012 - linkIn addition to the bit about ECC, nVidia really made headway over AMD primarily because of CUDA. nVidia specially targeted a whole bunch of developers of popular academic software and loaned out free engineers. Experienced devs from nVidia would actually do most of the legwork to port MPI code to CUDA, while AMD did nothing of the sort. Therefore, there is now a large body of well-optimized computational simulation software that supports CUDA (and not OpenCL). However, this is slowly changing and OpenCL is catching on. Reply
Jag128 - Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - linkI wonder if it could play crysis on full? Reply
mikbe - Friday, June 28, 2013 - linkI was actually surprise at how many actual times the word "actually" was actually used. Actually, the way it's actually used in this actual article it's actually meaningless and can actually be dropped, actually, most of the actual time. Reply