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Facebook's "Open Compute" Server testedby Johan De Gelas on 11/3/2011 12:00 AM EST
68 Comments
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fpsvash - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkIn the middle of the paragraph below the image caption, the sentence reads "...and offers better slightly better performance..."
Other than that, nice post! Reply
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InternetGeek - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkIt's interesting that no many players have taken a look at Open Compute. Reply
alent1234 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkit's a solution for a specific workload. there are still a lot of workloads that require the traditional model of big database servers
unlike your bank, facebook's noSQL is not ACID Reply
FunBunny2 - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkWell, yes a voice of reason. OTOH, the Facebook et al folks are convinced that their back to the COBOL era is the future. As if a toy application, albeit pervasive, is "innovation". Reply
Sivar - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkIt's a little difficult to look at a comment about Facebook being a toy application and take it seriously. Yes, Facebook is not directly processing bank transactions on a Tandem, but their site is used to conduct business -- and is even the basis for many businesses, all over the world.
Zynga, the company that makes a few annoying games for Facebook, is worth $15 -- more than Electronic Arts.
Nearly every major online publisher, including Anandtech, uses their API for content distribution and often as the entire forum system for discussion of publications.
The founder is the youngest billionaire in history.
Calling theirs a toy application sounds like a Blockbuster customer calling Redbox a toy. It's denial of an obviously successful, large, powerful, innovative company because they don't do things "the old way."
I suspect what matters more is that the business is executing flawlessly, the actual problems with data loss or other non-ACID compliant traditional issues are minimal, and that they are making enough money that Google and Microsoft are feel seriously threatened.
One last thing -- if you really look into what ACID compliance means (and I know you did not specifically mention the acronymn, but replied to someone that did) none of the current major DBMS's are truly ACID compliant. It's too slow. Not Oracle. Not MSSQL. Not Greenplum. Not Teradata. None of them. They may be closer than NoSQL or the like, but then it's all about the right tool for the job, right? Reply
Ceencee - Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - linkThis is true but ACID can be over-rated for many workloads. How many pieces of data HAVE to be consistent across the entire cluster to be valid? What about NoSQL with configurable consistency like Cassandra?
NoSQL databases provide the holy grail of system growth which is horizontal scaling and this is no small thing for anyone who has worked with a very large RDBMS like ORACLE and implemented RAC to find it doesn't scale all that linearly for most workloads. Reply
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ac2 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkWouldn't the presence of the graphics on the HP server account for the 32W idle load savings? Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkIt is an ATI ES 1000, that is a server/thin client chip. That chip is only 2D. I can not find the power specs, but considering that the chip does not even need a heatsink, I think this chip consumes maybe 1W in idle. Reply
mczak - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkES 1000 is almost the same as radeon 7000/ve (no that's not HD 7000...) (some time in the past you could even force 3d in linux with the open-source driver though it usually did not work). The chip also has dedicated ram chip (though only 16bit wide memory interface) and I'm not sure how good the powersaving methods of it are (probably not downclocking but supporting clock gating) - not sure if it fits into 1W at idle (but certainly shouldn't be much more). Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI can not find any good tech resources on the chip, but I can imagine that AMD/ATI have shrunk the chip since it's appearance in 2005. If not, and the chip does consume quite a bit, it is a bit disappointing that server vendors still use it as the videochip is used very rarely. You don't need a videochip for RDP for example. Reply
mczak - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI think the possibility of this chip being shrunk since 2005 is 0%. The other question is if it was shrunk from rv100 or if it's actually the same - even if it was shrunk it probably was a well mature process like 130nm in 2005 otherwise it's 180nm.
At 130nm (estimated below 20 million transistors) the die size would be very small already and probably wouldn't get any smaller due to i/o anyway. Most of the power draw might be due to i/o too so shrink wouldn't help there neither. It is possible though it's really below 1W (when idle). Reply
Taft12 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkA shrink WOULD allow production of many more units on each wafer. Since almost every server shipped needs an ES1000 chip, demand is consistently on the order of millions per year. Reply
mczak - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkThere's a limit how much i/o you can have for a given die size (actually the limiting factor is not area but circumference so making it rectangular sort of helps). i/o pads apparently don't shrink well hence if your chip has to have some size because you've got too many i/o pads a shrink will do nothing but make it more expensive (since smaller process nodes are generally more expensive per area).
Being i/o bound is quite possible for some chips though I don't know if this one really is - it's got at least display outputs, 16bit memory interface, 32bit pci interface and the required power/ground pads at least.
In any case even at 180nm the chip should be below 40mm² already hence the die size cost is probably quite low compared to packaging, cost of memory etc. Reply
Penti - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkIt's the integrated BMC/ILO solution which also includes a GPU that would use more power then the ES1000 any how. That is also what is lacking in the simple Google / Facebook compute-node setup. They don't need that kind off management and can handle that a node goes offline. Reply
haplo602 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkIt seems to me that the HP server is doing as well as the Facebook ones. Considering it has more featuers (remote management, integrated graphics) and a "common" PSU. Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkThe HP does well. However, if you don't need integrated graphics and you hardly use the BMC at all, you still end up with a server that wastes power on features you hardly use. Reply
twhittet - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI would assume cost is also a major factor. Why pay for so many features you don't need? Manufacturing costs should be lower if they actually build these in bulk. Reply
jamdev12 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI would definitely have to agree with you on this notion. HP servers are pretty expensive when you take into account 3 year warranties and 24/7 replacement options that going with a open compute server is a nice alternative to the "I can do everything" server. Better to stick to something you can do pretty well and efficiently than I can do many things poorly. Reply
haplo602 - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkthis is an option for somebody with a custom built infrastructure and dedicated DC services. however a general purpose server CANNOT do without.
since the server category is different (general purpose vs custom built) the HP one does well (I'd say even excelent). Reply
HollyDOL - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI would be quite interested how they determined Java and C# are 2/3x slower than C++. Since it seems pretty non-corresponding with reality to me. I have seen a few tests C++ vs. Java and the differences were in matter of %. As well as C# in my experience does the same jobs little bit faster than Java and the benchmark results generally confirm it.
few links:
http://reverseblade.blogspot.com/2009/02/c-versus-... Reply
setzer - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI'm guessing they are comparing their algorithms and I hope they are good programmers for all the languages they tested otherwise the tests don't mean anything. Reply
Taft12 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI'm not surprised that part of the article would lead to programming language holy wars, but general benchmarks are utterly useless for Facebook. They should (and surely do) care only about performance of the compiled code and hardware platforms that run the site. Reply
bji - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkIt's illogical to suggest that an interpreted language like Java or C# could ever approach C++ in speed when the same level of optimization is applied to each.
In my experience, the least optimized C++ code can sometimes be approximated in performance by the best optimized Java code, depending on the task in question.
Of course, once you spend time optimizing the C++ code then there is no way for Java to keep up.
I have never used C# but I expect the result for it would be very similar to Java due to the similar mechanics of the language implementation.
That being said, in many situations raw speed is not the most important factor, and Java and C# can have significant advantages in terms of mechanism of deployment, programmer productivity, etc, that can make those languages very much the best choice in some situations; which is why they are, in fact, used in those situations in which their advantages are best exploited and their weaknesses are least important.
I think that Ruby takes the last paragraph even further; Ruby is so ungodly slow that it has to make up for it by allowing extreme productivity gains, and I expect that it must (I've never programmed in it to any significant extent), otherwise it wouldn't have any niche at all. Reply
data003 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkWhile I've lurked this site for many years I just created an account to correct this erroneous bit of fail above.
1. C# and Java are not interpreted languages. The are compiled at runtime into machine code.
2. The C# JIT compiler can actually produce more efficient machine code than a compiled C++ binary.
Since you have never used C# and clearly don't understand how it works, I'd suggest you refrain from commenting on it. Reply
Jaybus - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkI agree that in some cases a JIT compiler can produce more efficient code, particularly when the application lends itself to runtime optimizations, however that is far from typical. Usually, for a single process, the JIT code, once compiled, will be reasonably close, though the static C/C++ code has the edge.
But that is for the typical case. Facebook is not a typical case. Each web server is constantly starting many, many short-lived processes. Each process must start up its own copy of the code. This is where JIT fails badly to ahead-of-time compilation. It isn't the execution speed of the code after the JIT gets it compiled. The problem is the startup delay. Even with caching, the bytecode still must be compiled at least once for each new process, which in Facebook's case is millions of times. There is no such delay with ahead-of-time compilation. Therefore, Java and C# have no chance of competing in Facebook's environment. Reply
erwinerwinerwin - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linki wonder whether power consumption justifies them to create a new hardware w/ green power architecture and the cost they spend to having a custom build power supply running on 270volt, if it's only saves about 10-20 percent average of power consumption, rather than lets say make a corporate deal to the best power/performance servers producer on the market and modified it with water cooling (for example)??? Reply
Menetlaus - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkPower savings absolutely justifies the work they did in customizing.
20W less power consumption x 24/7/365 operation = 175KW.h (per server per year)
175KW.h x $0.1/kw.h = $17.50 in power savings/year
Just looking at the final image in the article there are easily 30 racks of 30 servers visable (30 x 30 x 17.50 =) $15 750/year in power saving.
Since most power going into a computer ends up as wasted heat, if the 900 servers (from above) were consuming the additioanl 20W this would be ~18KW of additional heat being produced which needs to be cooled. This offers additional operational and capital cost savings due to the smaller cooling requirements.
Water cooling may be a more efficient way of pulling heat out of the server rack, but the additional parts to move the water around the facility and to cool it adds to the total costs. Water is more efficient because it carries more heat/volume than air and with the piping the heat can be taken outside of the server room, while fans heat the air around the servers where another method of removing the heat is then required.
The custom power supply at 270V and custom motherboard aren't really that difficult to get, as so many makers of each part already do custom designs for major PC makers (Dell/HP/etc). The difference between 208v and 270v from an electrical design standpoint isn't a big change, neither is removing parts from a motherboard.
In short it's the economy of scale. You or I wouldn't be able to do this for a dozen personal systems as the costs would be huge per system, on the other hand for anyone managing 1'000's of servers the 20W/per adds up quick. Reply
iwod - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkAnd i am guessing Facebook has at least 10 times more then what is shown on that image. Reply
DanNeely - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkHundreds or thousands of times more is more likely. FB's grown to the point of building its own data centers instead of leasing space in other peoples. Large data centers consume multiple megawatts of power. At ~100W/box, that's 5-10k servers per MW (depending on cooling costs); so that's tens of thousands of servers/data center and data centers scattered globally to minimize latency and traffic over longhaul trunks. Reply
pandemonium - Friday, November 04, 2011 - linkI'm so glad there are other people out there - other than myself - that sees the big picture of where these 'miniscule savings' goes. :) Reply
npp - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkWhat you're talking about is how efficient the power factor correction circuits of those PSUs are, and not how power efficient the units their self are... The title is a bit misleading. Reply
NCM - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - link"Only" 10-20% power savings from the custom power distribution????
When you've got thousands of these things in a building, consuming untold MW, you'd kill your own grandmother for half that savings. And water cooling doesn't save any energy at all—it's simply an expensive and more complicated way of moving heat from one place to another.
For those unfamiliar with it, 480 VAC three-phase is a widely used commercial/industrial voltage in USA power systems, yielding 277 VAC line-to-ground from each of its phases. I'd bet that even those light fixtures in the data center photo are also off-the-shelf 277V fluorescents of the kind typically used in manufacturing facilities with 480V power. So this isn't a custom power system in the larger sense (although the server level PSUs are custom) but rather some very creative leverage of existing practice.
Remember also that there's a double saving from reduced power losses: first from the electricity you don't have to buy, and then from the power you don't have to use for cooling those losses. Reply
npp - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI don't remember arguing that 10% power savings are minor :) Maybe you should've posted your thoughts as a regular post, and not a reply. Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkGood post but probably meant to be a reply to erwinerwinerwin ;-) Reply
NCM - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkJohan writes: "Good post but probably meant to be a reply to erwinerwinerwin ;-)"
Exactly. Reply
tiro_uspsss - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkIs it just me, or does placing the Xeons *right* next to each other seem like a bad idea in regards to heat dissipation? :-/
I realise the aim is performance/watt but, ah, is there any advantage, power usage-wise, if you were to place the CPUs further apart? Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkNo. the most important rule is that the warm air of one heatsink should not enter the stream of cold air of the other. So placing them next to each other is the best way to do it, placing them serially the worst.
Placing them further apart will not accomplish much IMHO. most of the heat is drawn away to the back of the server, the heatsinks do not get very hot. You also lower the airspeed between the heatsinks. Reply
harrkev - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkYou should look again at the sine-wave plots. Power factor has more to do with the phase of the current and not so much how much like a sine-wave it looks like.
As an example, a purely capacitive or purely inductive load will have a perfect sine wave current (but completely out of phase with the voltage), but have a power factor very close to zero...
So, those graphs do not really tell us much unless you actually crank the numbers to calculate the real power factor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor#Non-line... Reply
ezekiel68 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkOn page 2:
"The next piece in the Facebook puzzle is that the Open Source tools are Memcached."
In fact, the tools are not memchached. Instead, software objects from the PHP/c++ stack, programmed by the engineers, are stored in Memcached. Side note - those in the know pronounce it "mem-cache-dee", emphasizing with the last syllable that it is a network daemon. (similar to how the DNS server "bind" is pronounced "bin-dee") So the next piece is Memcached, but the tools are not 'memcached'. Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkThat is something that went wrong in the final editing by Jarred. Sorry about that and I feel bad about dragging Jarred into this, but unfortunately that is what happened. As you can see further, "Facebook mostly uses memcached to alleviate database load", I was not under the impression that the "Open Source tools are Memcached. " :-) Reply
ezekiel68 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI was pretty sure it was a mistake and I only mentioned it to have the blemish removed - I've been following and admiring your technical writing since the the early 2000s. Please keep on bringing us great server architecture pieces. Don't worry about Jarred, he's fine too. We all make mistakes. Reply
Dug - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI'm curious what the cost would be on the servers compared to something like the HP. Reply
Lucian Armasu - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkAccording to SemiAccurate, Facebook is considering Calxeda's recently announced ARM servers, too. It could be a lot more efficient to run something like Facebook on those types of servers. Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI personally doubt that very much. The memcached servers are hardly CPU intensive, but a 32 bit ARM processor will not fit the bill. Even when ARM will get 64 bit, it is safe to say that x86 will offer much more DIMM slots. It remains to be seen how the ratio Watt/ RAM cache will be. Until 64 bit ARMs arrive with quite a few memory channels: no go IMHO.
And the processing intensive parts of the facebook architecture are going to be very slow on the ARMs.
The funny thing about the ARM presentations is that they assume that virtualization does not exist in the x86 world. A 24 thread x86 CPU with 128 GB can maybe run 30-60 VMs on it, lowering the cost to something like 5-10W per VM. A 5W ARM server is probably not even capable of running one of those machines at a decent speed. You'll be faced with serious management overhead to deal with 30x more servers (or worse!), high response times (single thread performance take a huge dive!) just to save a bit on the power bill.
As a general rule: if the Atom based servers have not made it to the shortlist yet, they sure are not going to replace it by ARM based ones. Reply
tspacie - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkThe FaceBook servers take a higher line voltage for increased efficiency. What voltage was supplied to the HP server for these tests? Reply
JohanAnandtech - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkBoth servers used 230V. I have added this to benchmark page (Thanks, good question). So in reality the Facebook server can consume slightly less. Reply
Alex_Haddock - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkTBH we'd position SL class servers for this kind of scenario rather than DL380G7 (which does have a DC power option btw) so not sure it is a relevant comparison. Though I understand using what is available to test. Reply
mrsprewell - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkThis review claims this facebook server is more efficient than Hp's, but I see no prove. They only compares the power supply power factor performance. But what about efficiency? I guess the lab has no 277Vac input(which most datecenter don't have as well) and they can only power the server in 208/230Vac. As a result, they can't compare the servers efficiency. Also they didn't describe at what loading condition is the test being done on... I am sure the HP server has better efficiency than the facebook one at 230Vac input. The only good thing about the facebook one is that it might not need a UPS. But the consequence to that is, you have to use the battery rack from Facebook, which is not standard and can be costly.
Also it is nice to know that the Powerone power supply will overheat when using DC input for more than 10min....hahahahh...that's a smart way to cost down the power supply... Reply
marc1000 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkwhat does this "noSQL" means??? they don't use any relational database at all? how facebook stores information? plain files? Reply
erple2 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkGoogle doesn't use relational databases to store and retrieve its information either. Neither does the high performance data warehouse that was developed on a program I worked on a few years ago - we migrated away from Oracle for cost and performance reasons.
I think that the days of the Relational Database are numbered. The mainstay of the Relational Database (stored procedures) are quickly showing their age in a complete inability to debug issues with them outside of expensive specialized tools. We've been replacing them as much as we can with an abstraction layer.
But we still have goofy constructs to deal with (joins just don't make sense from a OO perspective).
I think that Relational Databases's days are numbered. Reply
FunBunny2 - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkRDBMS is numbered only for those who've no idea that what they think is "new" is just their grandpappy's olde COBOL crap. Just because you're so young, so inexperienced, and so stupid that you can't model data intelligently; doesn't mean you've got it right. But if you're in love with getting paid by LOC metrics, then Back to The Future is what you want. Remember, Facebook and Twitter and such are just toys; they ain't serious. Reply
Ceencee - Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - linkThis is completely false, RDBMS have their place but are also extremely inefficient ways to access large amounts of data as ACID compliance hamstrings many of the operations.
As someone who would consider himself an Oracle Expert I would say that NoSQL databases like Cassandra and HBase are really exciting technology for the future. Reply
Starfireaw11 - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkI can see how the OpenCompute compares well to a DL380G7 in terms of performance vs power consumption and may compare well in price (those details aren't readily available), but the things that the OpenCompute has going for it are that it has been stripped of unneeded components, fitted with efficient fans and matched to efficient power supplies. From what I have seen and done in and around datacenters, these are exactly the objectives of a blade based system, where you can have large, efficient power supplies, large fans and missing or shared devices that are non-critical. I would like to see this article modified to include a comparison against a blade-based solution of equivalent specification to see how that stacks up - if you can swing it, use a fully populated blade chassis and average out the results against the number of blades. The blades also have an advantage of allowing approximately 14 servers in a 9 RU space - allowing approximately 70 servers per 45 RU rack, vs the 30 odd of the OpenCompute.
Whenever I need to put equipment into a datacenter, the important specifications are performance, cost price, power efficiency, size, weight and heat. Whenever a large number of servers are required, blades always stack up well, possibly with the exception of weight where there are limitations on floor-loading in a datacenter, but they do compare well with weight when compared to equivalent performing non-blade servers (such as 28 RU of DL380G7s). Reply
Doby - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkAlthough I think blades could be favorable if, at least if you take into account the infrastructure reduction such as networking ports. Thing is, if you look at the HP products that are available there are better alternatives.
HP, as the specific example, has a product call the SL6500. Its a second generation product specifically designed for these types of environements, and meant to compete with exactly the type of system that FaceBook created. A comparitive use case would be a 8 node configuration, which would take up 4U of rack space and could run off of 2-4 PSU that would be shared between the nodes. Additionally it has a shared redundant FAN configuration that uses larger, more efficient fans to cool the chassis. Its like blades, but doesn't have any shared networking, is made specifically to be lighter and cheaper, and has options for lower cost nodes.
The DL380 has a few things working against it in this comparison, from hot swapable drives, to enterprise class onboard management (iLO, not just basic BMC), reduandant fans, scalable power infrastructure, 6 PCI-E slots, onboard, high perfromance RAID controller, 4 NICs, and simplified servicability with single tool and/or toolless servicibility, and even a display for component failures.
The SL6500 would be able to have very basic nodes, with non hot swap SATA drives, basic SATA raid function, dual NICs, and features much more inline with the Facebook system. Sure, it woudln't be as specific to Facebooks needs, but would be a more interesting comparison as it would be at least comparing two systems designed for similar roles, not a general enterprise compute node to a purpose built scale out system, but a comparison of 2 scale out platforms. Reply
Ceencee - Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - linkThe SL6500 chasis with SL160s G6 servers seems to be a good solution to storage level nodes. Wonder if Facebook will release a storage node spec next? Reply
Penti - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkYou have different cooling requirement also. Obviously Googles or Facebooks option isn't about the maximum density per rack. But they are also not using any traditional hot aisle cold aisle setup. Not will all datacenters be able to handle your 20-30kW rack. In terms off cooling requirements and power. Reply
rikmorgan - Thursday, November 03, 2011 - linkThe idle power chart shows HP 160w, Open Compute 118w. That's 42w savings, not 32w. Reply
jhh - Saturday, November 05, 2011 - linkI'm not sure how much of the benchmarks depend on network bandwidth, but Facebook certainly does a lot of it. Using SRIOV based NICs and supporting drivers allows the VM to access virtual NIC hardware directly, without having to go through the hypervisor. But, all NICs aren't built equal, many of them do not support SRIOV, and those that do, may not have drivers which support it in older kernels such as Centos 5.6. Unfortunately, since most Gigabit NICs were designed before SRIOV, most gigabit NICs don't support it. We have great difficulty getting hardware vendors to describe whether the provide SRIOV capable hardware or Linux drivers. The newer 10G NICs tend to support SRIOV, but whether the server needs more than 1G is unclear, and the 10G NICs are more expensive and use more power. Reply
CPU-Hog - Sunday, November 06, 2011 - linkGood comparison of the servers however I couldn't help but think how much better it would be if we ran actual workloads that facebook etc plan to run in the datacenter vs. these enterprise workloads. How about running MemcacheD / Hadoop / HipHop etc. which are the key workloads the OpenCompute servers are designed to run well.
Many of these workloads need large IO and memory vs. high compute. It will also be interesting to then use the same benchmarks to compare future servers based on technology from newbies like Calxeda, SeaMicro and AppliedMicro.
Xeon and Opterons based servers vs. ARM and Atom based servers. Now that battle of the old guard vs, the upstarts will be worth seeing. Reply
trochevs - Wednesday, November 09, 2011 - linkJohan,
Thank you for excellent article. I love to read about cutting edge technology. Keep with the good work. But, I notice something that nobody in the comments has mention yet. In the last paragraph:
"... being inspired by open source software (think ..., ..., iOS, ...)."
iOS is a Open Source Software?! When this happen? Reply
mrgadgetgeek - Thursday, November 10, 2011 - linkSince these systems are custom designed by Facebook engineers, I'm guessing you can't purchase anything like it, correct? Will that change with that foundation that Open Compute announced recently? Reply
artemisgoldfish - Thursday, November 10, 2011 - linkGetting Power One to design a supply just right requires a LOT of testing. It's also strange to me that the supply only takes 200-277VAC. The Power One AC supplies I'm familiar with do 90VAC to 264VAC and pass 80PLUS Gold, maybe the tighter input range helps them tune it for more efficiency. Reply
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Written by: : healthplus24.com team
Date last updated: June 10th, 2015
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ASUS UL80Vt and G51J: Going for the Goldby Jarred Walton on 12/15/2009 1:30 AM EST
- Posted in
- Laptops
65 Comments
Back to Article
crydee - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkFrom reading other forums it sounds like the UL30VT has a nicer LCD and build quality. As soon as they start selling those and with the same battery as the UL80VT the price should be lower for an overall smaller laptop and no dvd-rom. That sounds like the laptop I'd want. 13" will be easier to handle the smaller resolution. Reply
duffmann - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkOn my ASUS UL30a (which also has a SU7300) there is an option to do a 1-5% overclock in the BIOS. By default it was set to a 3% when I recieved the system effectively making it 1.339GHz. Is this option also present on the UL80Vt and if so, do the "stock" numbers in the article correspond to 1.3GHz? Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkI did not check in the BIOS (and the laptop is on its way back to ASUS), but CPU-Z/Intel TAT showed a clock of 1.30GHz at stock and 1.73GHz overclocked, so if there is a BIOS overclock option it was not enabled. Reply
rubbahbandman - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkI got the Lenovo Ideapad Y550 over the holidays and think it should be considered as well if you're looking for a budget gaming laptop.
For $820 (not including tax) I got:
*Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 (only 25watt processor) vs i7 720QM (45watts for similar performance, and costs far more)
*4GB DDR3 (pretty standard)
*Nvidia Geforce 240M (23watt videocard) vs 260M (75watts)
*320GB HD (5400 RPM, my worst part, but at least it's low power, quiet, runs cooler, and doesn't vibrate as much as a 7200)
*HD LED 1366x768 native resolution doesn't seem like a disadvantage to me. It's comfortable for the eyes and doesn't require as beefy a videocard, uses less power too I'd imagine than 1920x1080. While the 240M offers far less powerful than the 260M, it good enough to play most games at 1366x768 with high settings and doesn't draw nearly as much power or produce as much heat as the 260M.
*and it comes with bluetooth, wireless N, nice 'laptop' speakers (w/a tiny sub), win 7 64bit, hdmi, dvd writer, eSATA, 6 lbs, (no TV-tuner though).
*with only a 6-cell battery I can surf the web for 4hrs 15min with my setup. gaming on the other hand is about 90min-2hrs, which is still very good compared to most.
bennyg - Thursday, December 17, 2009 - linkThere's budget midrange gaming and there's budget highend gaming, you're comparing quite different categories here Reply
rubbahbandman - Thursday, December 17, 2009 - link"ASUS G51: Affordable Midrange Gaming"
I'm just pointing out there's affordable midrange gaming at less than $900 for laptops versus the $1400-1500 price tag for the G51. Neither of the computers in this article would be considered "high-end" for laptop gaming. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 17, 2009 - linkThe only thing significantly faster in laptops would be something sporting dual GPUs (for now). GTX 280M laptops are about 20-30% faster at most in gaming, which isn't much considering the majority of such laptops will cost well over $2000.
Mostly, I call this "Affordable Midrange" because I consider $1500 to be the top of the midrange laptop market in terms of cost. The GTX 260M is about twice the performance (slightly more) of the GT 240M: 96 vs. 48 SPs, and clock speeds that are marginally faster, with 256-bit vs. 128-bit memory interface. Also, if you're going to quote 23W for power on the GT 240M, the GTX 260M would only be 38W -- 82W is the difference I measured between system idle and gaming load, which is going to be split between the CPU, RAM, GPU, etc. (I also only show a 31W difference between 100% CPU load and gaming load, which corroborates that 38W figure from NVIDIA.)
Of course, the GT 240M is going to be around 2.5 times the speed of the G210M in the UL80Vt, so you'll be able to run any game as long as you're willing to drop the details. Where the GTX 260M is able to run games at 1080p with medium to high detail, the GT 240M will be limited to 900p at ~medium detail. Reply
Hulk - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkThe flex results from the torque applied to the screen. Reply
Wesleyrpg - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkAs well all know Asus underclocked the GTX 260M in the G51J from the defaults of 550/1375/950 to 500/1250/800 for heat management issues, but im wondering how much extra performance can be squeezed out of the system by 'overclocking' the GPU to its default speeds and beyond. I'm also curious to know how this affect the systems temps!
Can the Asus G51J take advantage of faster RAM like DDR3-1333 or DDR3-1600 modules? At what point does the machine start to gain/lose performance because of extra bandwidth/latency of the faster modules?
Wesleyrpg - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkok so i did some testing and got some very interesting results, i ran 3dmark06 three time and here are the average results!
10069 (500/1250/800)
Temp min/max 64-91
and now for the GPU running at 550/1375/950
Temp min/max 64-92
Thats it......a 10% improvement for a 1C in temp? Maybe im not getting the whole picture here or maybe Asus are downclocking for longevity reasons? Reply
bennyg - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkI think you're not getting the whole picture
Run it for an hour and then see the max temps then
When mine arrives I intend to downclock below the 9800MGTX speeds ... for longievity. Reply
clarkn0va - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkYou may want to blur that picture of the bottom of the second laptop. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkUmmm... oops! Thanks. Reply
Zero110 - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkYOU'RE TOO LATE!!! Just kidding. Reply
KikassAssassin - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI'm one of those people who has complained on the internet about the viewing angles, and I think your assessment is spot-on, because I came from an older laptop that had a higher-quality, but much dimmer, display. I do like that the UL80Vt's display is so much brighter than my previous laptop's, but the fact that such low-quality displays are commonplace nowadays is really sad. Companies will do anything to cut costs, I guess, but it's unfortunate that it's being done with such an important component. I guess most consumers don't care that much about the display quality, though, or else they wouldn't be able to get away with it. It would be nice if laptop manufacturers would at least offer the option of upgrading to a high-quality display. I would seriously have been willing to spend $1000 on a UL80Vt with a display on par with, say, the Macbook Pro or Dell Studio XPS (throw in a matte finish, an all-aluminum chassis, and a backlit keyboard, and you'd have the perfect laptop).
Also, I notice in this article you said the graphics switch time takes about five seconds. I guess your fifteen second time to switch to the nvidia GPU went away when you reinstalled the old drivers? I'm still curious what might've been causing that. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI think it may have been either drivers or something else; at one point I broke the GPUs with updated Intel and NVIDIA reference drivers. (They altered the support list to explicitly exclude hybrid GPUs after that, I guess.) Anyway, it's working fine now. If you're running a 3D app when you try to switch, it will blank for a bit and then you'll get an exclamation point on the NVIDIA icon, which is maybe what happened before... worst I've seen that I can confirm worked was around 10 seconds.
Agree on the LCD, finish, etc. I've got a Photodon cover for a 17" laptop that I'm going to test out in a little bit and see how that compares to running a native matte LCD. Reply
zorxd - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkWhat's the point of having a dedicated GPU in this laptop? It's too slow for gaming anyways. It's a thin and light laptop. Better to save 150-200$ to get a desktop computer to play games. The X4500MHD IGP will play 1080p movies just fine anyways. What else do you need? It's like people who want a dedicated GPU on an atom laptop or on their mac. Most of them will never make use of it. Reply
DominionSeraph - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkWTH? It's the discrete graphics that make the UL80Vt interesting. Without it, there's no reason for it to have anything more than an Atom.
Too slow for gaming? Jarred mentions playing Batman and Fallout 3 for several hours each. Sounds to me as though he was deriving entertainment value. Bet it plays WoW just fine, too.
With laptops, there's always tradeoffs between price, performance, portability, and battery life. The UL80Vt seems to hit a sweet spot.
And, honestly, for non-portable gaming, save yourself $600 and get a console. Reply
zorxd - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkthe UL30A is much more interesting Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkSomeone asked me to run DXVA Checker on the G210M to see what it says. Here are the results for the interested:
NVIDIA GeForce G210M
ModeMPEG2_IDCT: DXVA2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeMPEG2_VLD: DXVA2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeMPEG2_A: DXVA1, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeMPEG2_C: DXVA1, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeVC1_VLD: DXVA2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeVC1_IDCT: DXVA1/2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeWMV9_IDCT: DXVA1/2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeH264_VLD_FGT: DXVA2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
ModeH264_VLD_NoFGT: DXVA2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
9947EC6F-689B-11DC-A320-0019DBBC4184: DXVA2, NV12, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
B194EB52-19A0-41F0-B754-CC244AC1CB20: DXVA2, X8R8G8B8, 720x480 / 1280x720 / 1920x1080
For the record, DXVA Checker fails to get any useful information when using the GMA 4500MHD. Reply
tpurves - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - link14" monitor and only 768 vertical pixels? what the hell is up with that?
my WXGA 12" laptop has 800 vertical pixels and would still be usable with even slightly higher DPI if it was possible.
What is the point of carrying around the extra pounds and inches of a 14" screen if you have fewer useful pixels if you are not doing at least better than wxga.
I already think wxga at 13" (like on macbooks) is a waste of space.
A 14" should be at least 1440x900 (or the HD aspect-ratio equivalent) or what's the point of hauling that much computer and screen around? Reply
iamezza - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkOne business I installed a new PC at a while back complained they couldn't read the new 19" screen. Once I showed them how to change the resolution they changed the res to 800x600. Reply
iamezza - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkOne business I installed a new PC at a while back complained they couldn't read the new 19" screen. Once I showed them how to change the resolution they changed the res to 800x600. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkAh, youth... ;-)
Do you know how many 40+ people I've had COMPLAIN to me when I set a laptop to the native resolution? There are competing views on LCD resolutions. Older users with less than perfect eyesight prefer larger pixels, in which case the 1366x768 14" LCD is a good compromise. Younger enthusiasts often prefer crazy pixel pitch like 1600x900 in a 14" LCD.
Heck, I did some work for a dentist building PCs and gave the receptionists 22" 1680x1050 displays. Guess what they run them at: 1280x800! Ugh.... Anything higher than that and they complain that it's too hard to read.
For reference:
1366x768 14" is .227 pixel pitch
1280x1024 14" is .217 pitch
1440x900 at 14" is .209
1600x900 at 14" is .194
Personally, I'm good to about .200 pixel pitch, but older folks will often want more like a .250 pitch. On desktops, 1920x1200 on a 27" LCD is fine (.300), on a 24" it's "okay" (.270), and native resolution on 30" requires me to use magnification or set a higher DPI in windows (.252).
Of course, I'd also be happier with 16:10 aspect ratio displays on laptops instead of 16:9 (or possibly even 4:3, though that's debatable). First, though, give me a contrast ratio that doesn't suck. Reply
fabarati - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - link1440x900 is quite nice on a 14" screen. I'd even like a higher resolution.
But the displays used on old Asus 14" laptops (I've had a A8Js and i presently use a F8Sa) leave a lot to be desired. Though you should know that, as you tested the A8Js a few years back.
On the other hand, you do get used to it. It's only when you see better displays (like my brothers SR Macbook pro or our old FSC Amilo 1437g - not to speak of the very nice S-IPS displays at my summer job) that you feel dissapointed. Reply
pkkevin - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI second that, I remember my dad always adjusting his native 1360*768 13.3 inch laptop to a resolution of 800X600... it is all distorted and blurry to me, but he like it that way just so he can see clearly.
Great review by the way, Great informations.
darwinosx - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkWhat a hunk of plastic junk. The current laptop i7 is a joke as is the cheap plasticky Asus. Editors choice? You have got to be kidding me. Reply
The0ne - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI really have to say that most of you speaking about quality have little to no clue what you're actually referring to or talking about. I've worked in various engineering discipline to know that most of the "opinions" of this subject matter is in fact a personal one.
At least do some research and/or go out and TOUCH the materials before making such comments. There's Walmart and Best Buy almost everywhere so it shouldn't be too difficult.
Yes, I realize that ingrained perceptions are very difficult to overcome but man, so people are just dense. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkWhich of course is posted by a Mac fanboy. Thanks, darwinOSX for being so open to other options.
Would I prefer a nicer aluminum body? Sure I would! But that would also increase costs substantially. I would rather have a better LCD first, then a better construction. At that point we're looking at $1000, just like the aluminum MacBook, but it would still have substantially faster graphics and better battery life when you want it. Anyway, that's why the UL80Vt is a Silver and not a Gold.
As it stands, I have looked at dozens of laptops during the past year and these are both far better than competing models (i.e. similar pricing). We've praised MacBooks plenty, and they still have a place for anyone buying a laptop. If you don't want to run OS X, though, Apple has little to offer. "DUAL BOOT! And get 30% less battery life under Windows because we don't think anyone should even consider something other than OS X!" Thanks but no thanks. Reply
darwinosx - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI'll take the MacBook in a heartbeat over this. I've seen the aluminum MacBook at $1049 at MacConnection and the plastic Macbook at $849. No contest over this cheapo Asus. Reply
whatthehey - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkThanks for that; now go blow more smoke up Jobs' arse and leave the real discussion to people that can think.
Calling this a cheapo Asus to try and make you Mac look better is pathetic. What makes it cheap, other than a plastic body? Most laptops are plastic shells, and this is still $40 less than the plastic MacBook while offering superior battery life and gaming performance. Plus I wouldn't have to put up with OS X and its quirks. Anand may love that stuff but I'd just as soon stick with Windows. No contest over glorified Apple. Reply
KutterMax - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkCongratz to ASUS for the UL80Vt which looks to be a very nice portable machine that still has some pretty reasonable gaming performance coupled with great battery life.
ASUS has made some great computers. I picked up a "Lamborghini" a few years back and still really like it. However the very short battery life and heft did not make it the best travel companion.
I recently picked up a new Sony Z-series with a 2.8GHz processer, a couple extended batteries, and built-in Bluray. Granted it wasn't cheap, but the laptop is pretty slick. Sony allow put a great display on it and Blurays look outstanding. Importantly - it plays Torchlight great... Reply
Basilisk - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - link"... if you're talking a difference of 10W to 14W, that's a 40% increase in power requirements - or 40% less battery life."
I believe the correct statement is "29% less run-time":
RT = Wh / w ; RT reduction = 100% * (1-10w/14w) = 28.6%
By analogy, your metrics would suggest a 100% loss in run time (= zero time) if the draw was 20 watts, whereas its actually a 50% reduction. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkSorry... was being lazy when I wrote that. It would mean the lower power gets 40% more battery life, but as you point out the higher power draw is 29% less battery life. Reply
Wolfpup - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkNotebookreview's forums have reported major stability issues with that specific model:
That's really uncommon for Asus laptops, but seems to be the norm for this model, so...I take it the review unit didn't have those issues?
I run Folding @ Home on both my CPU and GPU when I'm not gaming or watching Blu Rays, so one way or another my hardware's always getting hit hard...need it to be 100% stable.
Also, regarding Vista or 7 losing power settings, I've never had that happen, though I always use "always on" and always do a clean install of the OS (I wasn't running much Asus software on my N80nv on Vista, and didn't install any under 7). Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI didn't have any stability issues with the G51J during testing. That said, I highly caution against running Folding@Home (SMP or GPU) on a laptop. I used to do that and found that it seemed to cause serious problems after 6 months or so... that it just pushed the hardware beyond where it was intended. I sometimes wonder if all the "failing NVIDIA mobile GPUs" isn't somehow related to a lot of people running such apps, but that's probably oversimplified.
In short, while I respect what the Folding teams are doing, I've determined that intentionally stressing hardware is a good way to make it fail sooner rather than later -- even if the hardware was once "100% stable". The benefit to me personally doesn't outweigh the cost... and if you're running a "folding farm" with desktops, your costs can very easily scale into the realm of $100+ per month for power, let alone hardware. :| Reply
Wolfpup - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkThanks for the info! Glad to hear it was stable.
I guess my N80 is a guiness pig for Folding then. If it does fail, that'll force me to upgrade :-D Reply
Glock24 - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI'm currently frustrated because I want to buy a new laptop, but it seems every manufacturer only ordered 1366x768 screens, be it for 12", 14", 15.6", or even 16" or 17" laptops.
I was seriously considering an Asus N81Vp, and the only screen available is.... you guessed it, 1366x768. My current laptop, an Asus F8Va has a 14.1" 1440x900 screen, so you may understand my disappointment.
I think manufacturers are trying to squeeze every penny they can putting those cheap 16:9 screens on every laptop. They do not realize we, the consumers, also use our laptops to work and not just to watch movies.
1366x768 is ok for a netbook, not for a real laptop. Reply
strikeback03 - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkSeriously. The UL50 (15.6" version) sounds like a laptop I would consider, but not with anything less than a 1680x1050 screen and a decent contrast ratio.
On a side note, has anyone had trouble with Win7 blanking their screen but not actually turning it off? On both my desktop and laptop after the "turn screen off after" time has elapsed, the screen will flick off then back on, and stay on but blank. Any way to fix this? Reply
yacoub - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkLooking forward to a review of the new ASUS EeePC Seashell 1201N-PU17-BK. That's an interesting one - dual-core, ION, 12" display, etc. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI'm curious to see how it works as well. I'm thinking CULV + 9400M would have accomplished much the same thing, but perhaps not. Stay tuned.... Reply
yacoub - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkHere's hoping it comes with a quality display! ;) Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkOne word: NOPE!
Okay, more than one word: When you boot up a laptop for the first time and the black background of the Windows loading screen looks more like dark gray, you know the contrast ratio is crap. Bleh. Reply
Ditiris - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI finally switched my HTPC over to Windows 7 and noticed that it had a mind of its own with regard to power settings.
power settings, change plan settings, change advanced power settings, expand Sleep and Allow wake timers, Disable any that are there
That fixed all my issues, even though I didn't have any sleep/wake timers, but disabling the ability seems to be important.
I haven't had any issues with my Vista machines (FWIW I'm using High Performance and I specifically went into the Advanced screen and disabled all sleep options). Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkThe wake events are already disabled, unfortunately. Some laptops exhibit the problem less than others (driver related perhaps), but my best guess is that somewhere there's a rogue line of code that gets invoked on occasion. I've actually fooled around hacking the registry on my personal laptop in order to keep the problem from reoccurring, but that was neither fun nor recommended for the faint of heart! Reply
mczak - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkAgain I have to wonder what the point of the OC CULV chip is. There's a ~10W difference (at full cpu load) between OC and non-OC, which means it is almost certainly also overvolted, but more importantly, that difference is larger than the TDP difference between CULV parts and (slightly faster) LV parts.
Looks to me like using a LV part instead of OC CULV would be both a bit faster plus actually offer slightly more battery life (unless, of course, you use stock setting of the CULV). Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkIt's pretty much giving users the ability to run with long battery life and when desired get better performance. If it were an on-the-fly setting, it would be a lot better. Anyway, even overclocked the SU7300 in the UL80Vt idles at what appears to be 2W, where something like the P8600 appears to idle at close to twice that (4-5W). It would be interesting to see some of the LV CPUs in a similar system, certainly... SL9600 anyone? Or maybe ASUS should grab an SL9380 and enable the same Turbo33 functionality. 1.8GHz stock and 2.4GHz overclocked. That would be the equivalent of P8600 (with 6MB cache) but hopefully allow lower power at idle. Reply
kagey - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkBTW - Nice reviews!
I may have missed this so slap me if I did but It would be helpful including some sort of standard about these two in the evaluation of a laptop. I feel these two points are just as important as performance and battery life.
Both are subjective but should be able to be measured while web surfing, gaming, and full load.
Noise factor of the fans. I hate it when you start doing something on the laptop and all of sudden the fans kick in and sound like a jet taking off. It would be nice if you could come up with some standards in the way of noise.
Heat - the palm rest when typing, touchpad / mouse area, underneath i.e. (keeping your legs nice and warm - yeah I know not the most optimal position for a laptop), and exhaust areas.
Thanks for listening. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI didn't mention either, but I did think about them during the review process. For the record, the UL80Vt is very quiet and cool running. When the fans kick up to higher speeds, it still remains a lot quieter than most laptops... maybe around 37-40 dB max, and it doesn't happen unless you put a heavy load (100% CPU or running games) on the system.
The G51J gets louder, but it's not as bad as the W870CU. For most tasks it will stay under ~35dB, but gaming will bump it up to around 39-41dB. Heat was not an issue on the G51J in my experience; the palm rest gets warm, perhaps up to 90F, and the bottom is the same except for the top-right corner (directly under the CPU/GPU "circle") which gets over 100F for sure. Reply
Wesleyrpg - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkhey guys, love the asus g51j, had one for a few days myself!
only problem is the mic on my one makes me sound like im in a subway (tried all the settings i could think of!).....have you guys had a chance to test your mic on livemessenger/ventrilo??? Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkSorry... I didn't think to test the mic. Built-in mics range from passable to lousy, so any time I use a mic I use a headset. Reply
Devo2007 - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI commented on the first article that seemed to have an odd layout (conclusion on the first page, etc.) so it's only fair that I chime in with an update. This one was much better! I liked getting the introduction, then an overall opinion on the next page. Kudos for also providing a quick link to view the technical details of the laptop as well. Reply
Visual - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkNot having both laptops at least on the same page if not the same graph for the performance benchmarks was a weird choice though. I realize they are in completely different leagues, but still an easier comparison between the two would have been nice. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkThe games are all run at completely different settings (for obvious reasons). 3DMark06/Vantage also run at 1280x768 on the lower spec laptops, unless you connect an external LCD. Since they all run at that setting I've kept the results. I thought about combining everything, but I've got two sets of spreadsheets with results: one has the high-end stuff and the other has low-end options. Putting together all the charts already takes forever and a day, and combining them all would potentially increase the time and just make the charts more confusing. (I'm still not sure I did the right thing on the last few charts where I combined results.) Reply
davepermen - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkmy powerplans never mess up. never did on vista, never do on win7. but i never install specific powerplan-tools, just a clean os install, and then let it be (and reconfig the power plan, like the password-after-standby and such).
so far, i haven't encountered your issue on all the machines i've tested.
weird. Reply
iamezza - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkIt has happened to me fairly often since I did a clean install of 7 on my Desktop PC. Password on resume, hard drive timeout and monitor timeout are the ones that get reset for me. Reply
cerebro - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkJust put SetPower on it (google it). It lets you configure the power settings based on time of day and takes into account whether the machine is plugged in or not. It uses scheduled tasks so it doesn't consume resources other than when it is switching plans for you. Reply
aos007 - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI have on the other hand ran into them quite often, especially on my laptop. I have the opposite problem - the damn thing just won't stay asleep and often I wake up finding it's on even though the lid is closed. And if it's not plugged in, you can imagine what kind of charge is left in it. I was getting it in Vista and I'd say it's probably even worse in Windows 7. I am guessing it has something to do with Microsoft's implementation of DLNA, I mean access to multimedia libraries and streaming. Microsoft specifically talks about devices needing to be able to wake up remotely when queried. That's all fine and dandy and even desired in a desktop but a laptop should really be a special case. Especially once the lid is closed. Reply
The0ne - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI have issues too, with and without clean installs. Sleep sometimes doesn't even trigger. Screen goes blank, screensaver, even though I turned it off. Very strange behaviors in Windows 7. This is for laptops though and I have not encounter anything with deskstops. There are other various strange little quirks in Windows 7 as well.
Most annoying thing is the windows explorer restarting itself. I think I figured out what's been causing this problem and have since accidentally fixed it. Its was one of the codecs with the k-lite codec full package that was screwing things up. Bastard. None of the tricks via Google worked for me except for this. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI'm guessing that it's possibly linked to the OEM software. Still, I'm 99% positive I had it happen with the Clevo W870CU and a clean install of Vista. I know on an Acer system I uninstalled every piece of software that was loading at startup, along with removing/disabling some services, and it STILL happened. Gah! I also don't like how many OEMs limit your setting on the critical battery percentage to 5%... I had to manually hack that on the G51J to make it 1%.
At any rate, it was something I've encountered enough during the past couple of years that I finally wanted to mention it. ASUS on the UL80Vt is particularly annoying if you use the button on the keyboard (the ExpressGate "power" button) to switch between plans, as it will jack with all sorts of settings. To my knowledge, there's no way to edit the defaults that it sets on most of the plans (i.e. the Power4Gear Battery Life option will turn on "auto-hide taskbar" every time you activate it). Reply
fokka - Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - linkyou say you adjust the critical battery percentage to 1%. while on a battery test thats perfectly ok, i heard (tomshardware) and painfully experienced that discharging a battery to zero is very bad for the cells.
one time vista didnt shut down in time and the battery lost about 20% of its capacity.
however, it would be great, if you guys made a battery guide/test and scientifically research the dos and donts of batteries. these little chemical friends are the cornerstone of our digital and mobile lifestyle, it scares me, how little proven knowledge exists on this topic. Reply
Ditiris - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkThis is AT. The first thing you should do is a clean install since your readers aren't going to keep all the OEM crapware on the machine.
I'd also say to make sure you're using the Advanced settings in both Vista and WIndows 7, and with Windows 7 you need to disable any sleep/wake timers. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkAll the OEM software (other than useful utilities) gets removed/disabled, but doing a clean install every time has its own set of pitfalls. I try to review laptops as the users will get them, and a clean install every time is a bit much. Regardless, this has happened on clean builds as well, so the bloatware you refer to may aggravate the situation somewhat but it's not the root cause.
As for the Advanced settings, obviously I've gone in there when I discuss things such as prompt for password being reset (to "Yes"). The odd thing is that it's only a subset of settings that get reset. The min/max CPU percentages stick, WiFi power settings stick, and so do most of the settings in the "middle" of the advanced power options. It's the first few settings and the last couple that seem to revert on a regular basis. The UL80Vt for example reverts once or twice a day -- one of the worst offenders in my experience. Reply
Diosjenin - Tuesday, December 15, 2009 - linkI've had it happen fairly often on both Vista and 7, after perfectly clean installs, with no third-party power software. Do not require password on wake creeps back up every so often, as does do not enter sleep mode on lid close if on AC power, even though I've repeatedly disabled them both. Reply
danwat1234 - Thursday, August 14, 2014 - linkThe Asus G50VT-X6, the predecessor to the G51J is very sexy. Very speedy with a cheap X9100 CPU you can buy on Ebay. Put in an SSD, buy a few extra genuine 9 cell batteries on Ebay and stick them in the fridge so you'll have a good batteries for the next 7+ years and your good.
It does run hot but that's ok. It is a part of it's personality. I am waiting until Per core x86 performance of the latest mobile chips are over twice the speed (work done) of my existing laptop. I think I'll wait until 11nm skymont.
In regards to longevity, I've been crunching on the 9800gs video card and the CPU for years and years with Seti@Home nearly 24/7 with no failures. This thing is reliable. I have burnt out quite a few AC adapters though. DC jack is solid. Running at 85-90C on the GPU most of the time and it really doesn't care. Reply


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AMD Reveals Brazos 2.0 APUs and FCHby Jarred Walton on 6/5/2012 10:23 PM EST
- Posted in
- Zacate
- Brazos
- Fusion
- APUs
- Laptops
- Trade Shows
- Computex 2012
31 Comments
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Taft12 - Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - linkAMD is doing the same thing in this space that Intel did with Ivy Bridge -- the competition just isn't there, so it's barely an improvement on the status quo. Too bad.
30 million units?! That's awesome for AMD. How does that compare to Atom? Or even LGA1155 Celeron units? They've carved out a big niche, that's for sure! Reply
meloz - Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - link>AMD is doing the same thing in this space that Intel did with Ivy Bridge
This is complete nonsense. The two situations are not remotely comparable. IVB is a huge improvement in performance/watt (and a modest improvement in net performance), it is *not* a re-branded SNB. Reply
nicmonson - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkWow you are wrong Taft in so many ways...
Intel did all it dared to do with Ivy Bridge while still trying to get it out on time. They had to do a die shrink which at these levels is crazy hard. Ya notice that Ivy Bridge low power is just coming out. With ARM biting at their heels, do you think they wanted their low power stuff to come out this late? Oh, silly person who likes to spout words. Reply
iwod - Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - linkThen why is AMD continue to lose money. Reply
MrSpadge - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkBecause they don't cost much -> low absolute profit per unti. Reply
MonkeyPaw - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkYeah, and Intel appears to be phasing out Atom in this segment, as the goal has always been to get Atom into the handheld space. If Intel really wanted, they could probably offer a dual core 2GHZ+ IVB with HD 3000 at 18W or less and it would be all over for Brazos 2.0. Reply
mabellon - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - link"If Intel really wanted, they could probably offer a dual core 2GHZ+ IVB with HD 3000 at 18W"
Uh, they already do. Ivy Bridge in ultrabooks with HD 4000 at 17W to be exact. Compared to IVB, Brazos is clearly DOA if not for price.
Compared to Atom... well who cares if Brazos is faster? I agree with you, Atom is destined for tablets and handhelds. Sub 6W TDP and dropping. Brazos is chasing a netbook market that no longer exists. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkThey lose money because out of 30 million of these sold, probably 10 million went into 15.6"+ size notebooks which stores like Best Buy tried to sell at normal laptop prices. Obviously anyone who pays "full price" for a notebook expects to get a full featured notebook, not some cut down atom competitor. Atom was bad but at least it never made it into rows and rows of 15.6" notebooks in stores.
Guess how many AMD chips these people are likely to buy in the future? Not many. That's right, AMD shot themselves in the foot. If they had at least put in an SSD controller, the display controllers, and some USB ports on the CPU die then they could have shifted this market towards SSDs. Why do I say that? Because if an oem has to choose between
a) $40 of NAND
b) $20 for a FCH plus $30 for a cheap crap 5400 rpm HDD,
they're going to pick the NAND and just skip the FCH entirely. And in doing so, each and every brazos machine would have been guaranteed a very snappy user experience, creating future demand and even higher ASPs.
But no, they blew their shot and blew their foot off. They are not going sell nearly as many of these in the future. Because a 15.6" cheap crap notebook with a $30 320GB slow-as-dirt HDD is almost as agonizing and aggravating to use as an atom netbook. Reply
Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkHa ha, sure, just like people who buy Celeron-based laptops won't buy Intel chips in the future. I have a Brazos notebook (Lenovo X130e) and it is much, much more responsive than Atom netbooks I have tried. If it's good enough for me, it's more than good enough for the average consumer. AMD hardly "blew their foot off." Reply
Alexvrb - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkWhat the heck are you talking about? FCH is the chipset. You still need a chipset, buying "$40 of NAND" doesn't eliminate the need for that. HDD vs SSD has nothing to do with it. You still need a CPU, chipset (such as the FCH), and everything else. Then, ON TOP OF THAT, you add an SSD (which is more than just a pile of NAND) or a HDD. For budget laptops models, you're not going to be able to put in a large enough SSD to satisfy users. HDD is the way to go for these sub-$400 models, unfortunetely.
Also, suggesting that they build an SSD controller into the CPU is foolish at this juncture. Reply
Jumangi - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkCause their APU's are all cheap so they don't make much profit. They probably have to sell 10 of them to get the profit Intel gets from a single IVY Bridge chip. Reply
XZerg - Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - linkWhen will AMD start to include dual channel in these things? I am sure the integrated graphics can definitely make use of the extra memory bandwidth.
Maybe AT can run a bench on these IGP CPUs with a single vs dual channel memory setup to see how much difference it makes to GPU related activities (games, specifically). Reply
XZerg - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkI found a bench:
Wow!!! it is over 50% hit for using single channel. That really begs the question - why won't they just include dual channel support? Reply
veri745 - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkIf by "over 50%", you actually mean "up to 42%", then yes.
I'm guessing they don't include dual channel support on Brazos because the die only has a single DDR controller. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkHold on now... just because Llano benefits by 55% on average going from single-channel to dual-channel doesn't mean the same thing would happen with Brazos.
Llano has a CPU core that's roughly twice as fast per core at similar clock speeds (e.g. E-350 1.6GHz vs. A8-3500M 1.5GHz + Turbo Core), and it's about three times as fast in heavily threaded tests thanks to having twice as many cores (http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/335?vs=385)... More importantly, the GPU core in Llano is up to FOUR TIMES (!) more powerful than the GPU in Brazos (80 cores @ 500MHz vs. 400 cores @ 444MHz).
AMD's engineers aren't stupid. I'd guess the reason Brazos isn't dual-channel is that AMD ran simulations in software before completing the design and determined that adding dual-channel support wasn't a good choice. It might have been cost-ineffective in terms of die size, power, and/or performance; for example,on a 75mm^2 chip, adding the second memory channel would bump up the pin count (and thus package size) by something like 200 pins. Even if the die size doesn't increase much, that makes the package size probably 50% larger. (FT1 is a BGA-413 socket; that means 413 pins, so you'd need around 600+ for dual-channel if I'm not mistaken.) Reply
Ryan Smith - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkI'm not sure you can even fit a dual channel controller on a chip that small. Some quick paper napkin numbers indicate that you might be pad limited coming off of the die, which could only be fixed by making the die bigger altogether. Reply
TheinsanegamerN - Wednesday, July 17, 2013 - linkthe lenovo x131e with amd's brazos chip has 2 ram slots. it can run the ram in dual channel. Reply
ET - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkThere's little need in my experience for GPU improvement in these chips considering the slow CPU.
I ran City of Heroes on an E-350 (at low graphical setting), and I get about the same (low) frame rate at 1080p that I get at the notebook's native 1366x768. So CPU bottlenecked to the extreme even with such a weak GPU. So better GPU performance will basically let you up the graphics settings a bit while retaining the low performance. Nice, but not that helpful. Reply
ET - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkI agree that a more minor naming change would have been in order. Looks like E-350 to E-450 was more of a change. Reply
duploxxx - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkit's a pitty that they didn't bring real brazos 2.0, perhaps we will see a new version on the node shift once mature enough. The E2-1800 will be a very good netbook....
On the other hand lets see what trinity 17-18W series will bring to the table, although they will be more expensive they probably have a way better performance Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkIt's a shame that AMD cancelled it and opted for slightly speed-bumped versions of their current architecture. It's not too dissimilar to Atom in this regard - release a new albeit pretty much unchanged generation, possibly with a couple of tweaks here and there to reduce power usage. One can only hope there's an E2-2000 or 2200 on the roadmap somewhere, however until next year (and a new process) there's not a real point in AMD throwing out a much faster Zacate.
I did think "Why not just make a single-core K10.5?" but realised that one single K10.5 core is probably larger than the entire Zacate die. Still, it'd crush Zacate, let alone Atom. Reply
krumme - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkYou might not like it, but this is good for the OEM and AMD shareholders as this product remove some of the shortcommings, while keeping cost down. Dropping 28nm conversion was an excellent move. 2013 we will se the new stuff on a mature process with lower cost than now. But i guess this cheap dude, will continue to sell for years, as all the cost is depreciated and 40nm will become even cheaper. x86 for all the world :) 30M is facts that speak for themselves, but it should have been the double. But there is still much left in this platform, its just turning a cash cow. Reply
stmok - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - link"If you're a little depressed about the rebranding of the Brazos Zacate as Brazos 2.0, you're not alone. This looks like a marketing driven move, particularly with the HD 7000 branding of the GPUs."
=> It's not marketing driven. Its strategic driven by the new CEO.
The reason Brazos 2.0 exists is because AMD is using it as a "delaying product" in order to buy their engineers time for the 2013 line: Kabini APU. (It also provides time for their manufacturing providers to transition to the 28nm process.)
2013: Kabini
* 2 to 4 cores.
* "Jaguar" cores. (Next major evolution to "Bobcat").
* iGPU moves to GCN architecture.
* 28nm manufacturing process.
Originally, they were to release "Krishna" (2 to 4 cores) and "Wichita" (up to 2 cores) APUs in 2012. These were nothing more than 28nm die-shrinks of the existing Brazos platform. They wouldn't have offered anything new from an architectural standpoint. (No "Jaguar" cores. No GCN for iGPU side). Since 28nm process wasn't happening for this low-cost market as scheduled, they cancelled them.
Overall, don't waste your money with 2012 lines from AMD. They are largely superficial improvements to buy time and breathing space for engineers to focus on 2013 lines.
2012 => 2013
Brazos 2.0 => Kabini (Jaguar-based APU)
Trinity => Kaveri (Streamroller-based APU)
The Vishera (Piledriver-based) or 2nd generation FX CPU; does not get replaced in 2013. It actually sticks around with Socket AM3+ in 2013...Because the 3rd generation FX (Steamroller) and its new socket format comes in 2014.
* Mainstream APUs (A-series) will be revision 1 of the new architecture.
* Performance CPUs (FX/Opteron-series) will be revision 2.
* Trinity APU => Piledriver-based (Revision 1)
* Vishera CPU => Piledriver-based (Revision 2)
* Kaveri APU => Steamroller-based (Revision 1)
* Vishera CPU => Piledriver-based (Revision 2)
* A-series APU => Excavator-based (Revision 1)
* FX-series CPU => Steamroller-based (Revision 2)
* A-series APU => Unknown next generation based architecture (Revision 1)
* FX-series CPU => Excavator-based (Revision 2)
This is AMD's "Tick-Tock" model. Instead of die-shrink and new architecture focus, they're doing it with different platforms. Their focus is for the mainstream APU (A-series) to play as the reference or "guinea pig" for the new architecture; while their performance CPUs (FX/Opteron-series) will receive the matured revisions. Reply
JarredWalton - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - link"It's not marketing driven. Its strategic driven by the new CEO."
What's the difference? In either case, the result is the same: AMD is rereleasing an existing product with a minor clock speed bump and a new name in order to increase interest from buyers. (Why wants to buy "last year's product" this year? Oh, but wait -- E2-1800 is new!)
Naming is also quite odd; E1-1200 seems like it should be E1-1400 and E2-1800 should be E2-1700. I know they're just model names and are arbitrary, but given the model numbers are close to the clocks why not just have them the same? Because that's also marketing: make the E2 sound a lot faster than an E1. Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkEvery 200-step is 100MHz in CPU speed. Despite that faster GPU, however, it's not really going to improve too much on the E-450, even if it IS 4x the numbering sequence. ;) Reply
krumme - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkThe product is not released because of marketing. They are released because it makes sense for the OEM business. So yes its strategic driven. The diference is the product is here. If AMD was porting to 28nm as fast as possible it would not have happened. The strategic context is interesting, and should get attention, the naming is the same old story.
Regarding the naming we better get used to the same renaming nonsense as everyone elses practices,- and these names a truly idiotic and manipulating - as probably the oem wants. But the buyers of these product hardly cares of the name. And cares if tis cgn 28 whatever as if that should have any importance at all for that segment. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkWhy didnt they jsut put the FCH in the cpu die. It is only a single channel memory bus. Surely they could create a fairly full featured SoC and still keep the pin count under 800. Reply
eanazag - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkAMD should have done more than just rebrand. I guess when they let go of all the marketing folks, they kept the cheaper, lower performing models.
I agree that the 15.6" laptop space is not where these should have shown up unless it was incredibly thin. I believe those first Windows 7 tablets should have came with these instead of Atoms for Dell and HP.
I am glad that AMD is pushing the process to give more performance, but in truth it should have been named an E - 500.
Brazos 2.0 should have been a process/die shrink if the architecture was untouched. Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkI'm surprised at AMD keeping at the same process, too. Ordinarily, you'd have a noticable architectural change, or a process change, sometimes even both... but in this case you can't really say they've made either. True, it'll use less power per clock, and they've been able to bump clocks up overall, but the arguments will generally centre around relative performance when compared to a much faster CPU, and the amount of time said CPU spends at idle after completing a certain task in a significantly faster amount of time. If system A is twice the price, but idles at a similar power and completes a task three times faster, it's going to use less power overall, but is it worth the extra cost?
Until we get reviews, there's no real indication of power usage, but it can only be a slight improvement, surely? Would 32nm have been better? Reply
Jumangi - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkWho was going to do the die shrink? TSMC can barely give what AMD and Nvidia wants for their GPU's which are much more profitable then low and stuff like Brazos. Reply
heffeque - Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - linkI have an E-450 on a Zotac AD04 with 8 GB of RAM.
The system is generally responsive and I can actually play games like TF2, Civ5 (small and medium maps), Portal 2, etc.
I can also watch 1080p movies on VLC/MPC-HC and on YouTube. I even tried a +19GB version of Avatar (by EbP) and it worked flawlessly. I'm personally not going to feed it with that kind of material often, but it's good to know that it actually works if I need it.
The problem comes when CPU intensive stuff comes along.
Flash is SUPER-taxing. Playing CivWorld is ok, but if you have two CivWorld windows open at the same time or CivWorld and a YouTube video or anything else that uses a lot of CPU... you're a goner.
The performance in general is ok, specially for it's price, consumption and size, but expect the CPU performance to be low. I'm sure that the only reason 1080p videos are working is thanks to the GPU, because the CPU performance is VERY sub-par, although enough for light work. Reply


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