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Swiftech H2O-120 Compact and Corsair Nautilus 500: Is Water Better?by Wesley Fink on 9/17/2007 6:00 AM EST
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- Cases/Cooling/PSUs
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geok1ng - Wednesday, July 23, 2008 - linkThere is no reason to dump $120+ on a budget water cooling system for CPUs since most sub$50 air coolers will do a good job
but with SLI/crossfire systems the typical air cooling solution are suboptimal to say the least. Even you have a board that can fit 2 VGA and 2 Acellero S1s, there is no way to put good airflow averthe humungous setup!
Someone plaese give us a water cooling solution for multi GPU systems that doesnt cost MORE than the VGAs! Reply
Cregaune - Tuesday, March 25, 2008 - linkThis review has given me lots of food for thought. Frankly, I find the conclusion incredible.
Perhaps you guys are right, but before people jump to your conclusions I wonder why your ambient room temps were kept within such loose margins i.e 20'C to 22'C.........a full 3'C !!!
Controlling ambient room temperature is particularly important when reviewing a water cooled system, simply because it can take an hour or more for the coolant temperature to stabilise; before you can legitimately take a reading. If, in the meantime, you let the room temperature fluctuate within such grossly wide margins, your results are next to useless....especially given the relative performance figures in your findings.
Just a thought!
Cableaddict - Friday, April 11, 2008 - linkWesley,
As far as performance goes, I'd say you present a valid argument. The specific kits you tested are not worth investing, vs a few of the best air-coolers. So far, so good, but your conclusions and general tone seem to fail badly after that one true point.
You wrote, (in this thread) "We state you will likely need to spend more than $300 to possibly outperform current top air coolers."
Nonsense. As many have mentioned, the big problem with these kits is the use of a single "220" size radiator. Using a dual-rad, or two singles, has been shown in test after test to increase cooling dramatically (even with a "lowly" Swiftech rad) So, one could buy the H2O-120 and add another radiator for $42 more. That's WELL under $200, and the performance OC'ed & under load will slightly outperform the Ultra-120. AND , it will be much less noisy.
You conclusions about noise are correct, but only at lower fan speeds.You posted a chart showing high OC / high load performance, but failed to include noise specs under those conditions. The noise comparisons at lower cooling settings do not apply at all. I've been looking at TONS of tests, specifically weighing cooling vs noise. At the high speeds needed to make the Ultra-120 types perform their best (about equal to a low-end dual radiator WC) they are much, MUCH noisier than WC, according to every test I've read.
Last: Bear in mind that many folks cannot fit those big air-coolers, espially HTPC people, or those with rack-mount music & video pc's. For such rigs, the best air coolers that will actually fit are the Gemini II, the DuOrb, etc. Even a single-rad WC setup does better than those when OC'ed & under load. (according to many tests I've seen.) With a dual-rad, WC systems decimate these air-coolers. For instance, one test put a Gemini II / dual Noctua blower against the H2O-220 kit. At 3.7 Ghz, under load, the WC was 15º cooler.
Regarding pump noise: Well again, your comparisons are fair if one is going to strictly obey the "rules" and not mod any system at all. However, One can pretty easily add sonex or other noise absorbtion to the inside of the case, and limit a good bit of that pump noise.
Going to a non-kit system, one can now choose the Lang D5 vario, dial it down a little, and add some sound isolation around it. Not so hard, and all reports say it is then virtually silent. With a dual-rad performance should still be excellent. Granted, that's approaching the $300 mark, but serious overclockers would certainly do better with such a set-up, and it would be LESS noisy.
I guess one last question must be addressed, and that is: Just how cool do we need to go? Let's say one want to OC a Q6600 (timeframe of this review) to 3.8 ghz. A $75 air-cooled rig will run under heavy load at (let's say) 60º, and a decent WC rig will run it at 50º. Is 60º safe enough, day after day, that the WC system is not worth the substantial cost? I don't know the answer. I wish I did.
-And when pushing the FSB really hard, one might worry about the rest of the mobo components. -So now we have to weight the WC advantage of being able to also cool the NB and GPU, vs the air-cooler advantage of cooling the ram,NB, mosfets, etc.
One might reasonably say that,with heavy OC, a WC set-up requires an additional case fan, and that means a little more noise.
Complicated... Reply
Cableaddict - Friday, April 11, 2008 - linkCustom H2O-220 type system:
Swiftech Apogee Drive 350 Pump / CPU water block combo $80
Swiftech MCR220-res: $55
2 Noctua fans: $50
non-evaporate hoses / clamps: ~ $20 MAX.
Hydrex: $3
$210 or less.
Swap-in a Lang Vario D5 pump and an Apogee or Fuzion waterblock, instead of the Apogee Drive 350, and you still under $275.
Test either of these systems on a Q6600 @ 3.8 Ghz, against any air system, includng the Ultra-120, and then get back to me.
Also bear in mind that either of these systems will easily also cool a GPU, with another $50 of parts.
Cableaddict - Saturday, April 26, 2008 - linkOne more noise consideration:
Granted this is a review of the H2O single, but for very little more money one can get the H2O with a double rad. THAT system should slightly outcool even the ultra-120, but what;s most important is that it will be MUCH quieter.
Again, the Ultra-120 types require pretty high CFM's to give good results. A dual radiator can deliver excellent performance with a pair of Nocyua 1300 rpm fans. That's bloody silent. Reply
perfectdarth - Sunday, December 30, 2007 - linkyou cant say say that watercooling is bad because a 2 budget kits get beaten by an ultra 120. watercooling does cost more but radiators and pumps last years and for $300 (no more) you could make a custom kit that would be quite a bit better than the top air coolers when cooling an overclocked cpu.
you harped on how watercooling costs more and takes more time/effort but you didnt state that people that are willing to spend the extra time/money dont always do it just for better temperatures and might find it fun and a bit of a challenge the first time. putting on a heatsink isnt very satisfying, you could train a monkey to do that. you could say people who spend $800 on a graphics card to play games at max are stupid because its still the same game at medium on a $350 graphics card but if you like to lay games that look nice you would think its worth it, it was like you had your mind made up before you wrote this article
people saying that the hassle of watercooling isnt worth it is just plain ignorance, some people enjoy maintaning their car themselves but other people would go meh and go pay someone to check their oil and water. that doesnt mean that people who dont care should tell the people that do it themselves that they are wasting time or the they should tell the lazy ones they shouldnt be lazy. watercooling is a hobby just as much as it is a way to better cool your computer.
i would like to see the swiftech h20-220 Apex Ultra tested against the top aircoolers since it is a very good kit and under $300 afaik. also watercooling seems to make a much bigger difference to graphics cards than cpus.
saying that you would rather buy a phase change over a good watercooling kit is rediculous. phase is more work and just as if not more risky than watercooling because of condensation.
also why farcry and not use tat or orthos? i didnt like this article much since it is very bias towards air. i read "water is useless air is so much better" all the way through. Reply
rabident - Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - linkYou could argue heatpipe coolers are closer to water coolers than air coolers. They're basically sealed water coolers. Most use distilled water as the heat transfer medium, just like conventional after coolers, except heat pipes are more efficient because they involve a phase change (which absorbs a lot of heat).
The real value with conventional watercooling is the freedom to piece together a custom cooling system that meets your needs. It lets you balance price, cooling performance, and noise the way you see fit. Plus there's a lot of room for creativity.
I think it's going be hard for water to beat air in price/performance, but if price is the #1 factor then I think the value of any after market coolers is questionable.
Starglider - Sunday, September 23, 2007 - linkThis review is ok, nothing amazing but the accusations being thrown around seem unwarranted. However the basic conclusion is this; modern heatsinks are good enough that for a single medium-speed 120mm fan, cooling is airflow and radiator surface limited. With heatpipes and improved layout heatsink thermal conductivity is no longer an issue (for quality air coolers).
It would be nice if this was made more explict in the conclusions, and I am dubious about the claim that you can't get a better radiator solution (e.g. dual-120mm or reserator) for under $200. The notion that water cooling won't give you any advantage other than chipset/GPU cooling is false in the general case; it is only true if you have a single 120mm fan radiator (plus it ignores the benefit of lowing case internal temps). Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - linkSo is the "water additive" really just old-school green automotive coolant, i.e. ethylene glycol? Or does it just look that way? Reply
aigomorla - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkhttp://www.vr-zone.com/articles/Swiftech_H20-120_C...">http://www.vr-zone.com/articles/Swiftec..._Compact...
Sorry. This review was better writen. And shows this cooler clearly owning air.
The editor i feel now has a grudge against water cooling. He is pushing air is greater then water when it looks like he has no experience with a decient water setup.
The pump making a lot of noise? Okey, can one owner who has a DDC confirm this? Because i have 4 and none of them make loud noises.
The Liang D5 doesnt even make loud noise, and its a bigger pump.
Sorry your 300+ watercooling comment needed to beat air... thats absolute BS.
People please do some research b4 you buy into this review. I asked the editor polietly to remove that statement and he has yet to remove it. I ask you guys to check out our case and cooling forum. There is a post on this and listen to what all the members on AT are saying. Only the editot of this article believes in his 300+ needed to beat air. The rest of the members on board totally disagree with him. XS is laughing at anandtech at the moment. Even the air cooling people at XS are laughing because its a KNOWN FACT a 120x2 radiator would demolish anything AIR can bring up. Even TEC air coolers dont stand a chance. Reply
MercenaryForHire - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkFolks, this is a review of off-the-shelf watercooling components. Not a customized, modded, build-it-yourself Hoover Dam setup. And the conclusions drawn I think are valid - if you want good results from watercooling, be prepared to fork over some significant coin, or source the parts yourselves and DIY. Reply
jebo - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkExactly. I find it interesting how all the water coolers are crying that AT said "Air is better than water". Well, the fact remains, that if you compare a $70 air cooler to a $150 water cooler, air is > water. You need to spend $300+ to get a h2o system that is better than a $70 air cooler. At that point, the cost concerns become prohibitive. Reply
psychotix11 - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkPart of the problem with this review is that it's managed to convince novice users that it does require 300+, which is either a distortion of truth to make a point, or ignorance about basic water cooling.
Pump - 65, apogee GT - 45, double rad - 50, misc crap (tubing, fittings, fans) - 20.
For exactly around 200 bucks you can construct a loop that will demolish any air cooling on the market. You could even toss another radiator into the swiftech kit and keep it under 200.
For 300 bucks you could toss in a 3x120mm rad, upgrade the CPU block, and liquid cool the NB and go even farther.
For a 300+ configuration the sky is the limit.
Also I've noticed the numbers they get don't match what other reviews have put out for a lot of the items used. Reply
Nickel020 - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkAs aigormola stated, ~200$ watercooling setups will beat any air cooling. A dual radiator doubles the heat dissipation capacity and is like 10$ more than a single.
And don't forget that you can keep you watercooling setup for like 5 years, while you usually get one 50-80$ heatsink and fan every time you upgrade your PC.
The review is fine, but the conclusion is the worst one I've seen in 5 years of reading reviews at AT. It's just plain wrong and will mislead a lot of people. Reply
aigomorla - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkFirst off, your picking the subject area which holds the most debate. Its a common ground fact that a 120x1 radiator will be lacking. Your test subjects were in fact both 120x1 radiators. One was made of ALU and the other Copper.
Your looking at entry lvl water cooling and using it as a comparison of middle class custom setups.
If you look at the swiftech APEX 220 series, you'll see your statement at the end not hold true.
The direct drive released by swiftech on a 120x1 platform, as well as the corsair nautilus is not the best grounds to claim such statements. The reason is the lack of the radiator.
120x2 radiator setups such as the swiftech Apex220 setup will eat the two coolers you listed and also any air setup you could possible throw. This unit is also modestly a bit over 200 dollars. Last price checked at jab-tech showed it to be 209 dollars for the complete setup.
Also your making a lot of potential people who are interested in h2o migration think twice. Your passing more myths on watercooling then i can think of. If you feel i am wrong in any statement, i recomend you contact Gabe, owner of swiftech and tell him you would like to give the company a chance to prove how powerful h2o cooling can be by giving you a sample of there APEX 220 system. Im sure Gabe will be all over it.
Also, you need to retract your statement about the 300 dollar mark. 200-300 is considered mid tier water cooling and no air can match to that calibur.
@ the guy who was about to migrate to the MCR320. Go ahead, and dont look back. This review only proved the power of 120x1 radiator. Its very lacking, however the moment you step up to a beefier radiator, 120x2 or 120x3 in your case, you'll see all the air people left behind in your rear view mirror. 2x the cooling power for the 220, and 3x the cooling for the 320.
Lets not even get into the power of a thermochill PA120.3 Believe me, its a very very big margin once you get there.
I am the creator of the watercooling thread sticky over at anandtech forums, and i was VERY disappointed in this article. The members over at Xtremesystems think this is a joke. These are the guys who are the front run pioneers in h2o cooling.
I ask polietly that you remove that comment of the 300 dollar being topped by high end air until you've tested an APEX 220 unit. All you have done was test 2 low end units in h2o and based a final conclusion. Reply
walltari - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkVery interesting review a pretty tough discussion but everybody forget one thing. You look only on very expensive kits useally common in U.S. or western Europe. I live in Czech republic (Eastern Europe) and I see another choises. I have completly watercooled PC. Radiator 2x120, pump with expansion and filling tank, CPU blok, GPU blok, Chipset blok, 2x HDD blok a this kit i bought for 210$. In this price you coudn´t buy ale these aircoolers and have same results. (I bought it form company www.viscool.com). I hear, and that´s the problem, that everybody have, DVD-rom.
In the review author hit the problem of the noise. Really the pump is the most noisest thing. I´m interested in building watercooled systems for three years and at first it is neceseary eliminate vibrations. The differnce is that my system and systems of this firm is waterpump included in watertank. This solutions lower noise to minimum level. They have 2 watertanks, one, included in kit, is smaller and second, which they made especially for me, because o my larger and more powerfull pump.
PS: Sorry for my english, I´m beginer Reply
rotNdude - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWhich direction was the fan blowing on the Swiftech kit? Since you mounted the rad off the back of the case and the fan appeared to be in the case, was it exhausting air or pulling ambient air?
Also, how much fluid was actually added to each cooling loop?
Wesley Fink - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWe used the existing case fan IN the case exhausting air. We also used the fan that came in the H2O-120 kit blowing air in the same direction. There is a 1-1/2" to 2" space created by the Radbox so air was being drawn in form the sides of the rad box.
The pre-cut tubing in the Swiftech kit is about 10" long each. We used 12" tubes to reach the external RadBox mounted Readiator/Reservoir. Reply
Jodiuh - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkThank you guys very much for using this universally accepted tool. I've always wondered why the temps for Thermalright's Ultra 120 Extreme were better than what I could achieve. There's 4 factors here:
-ambient (20C-22C vs 24C-26C)
-temp monitor (NV vs core temp)
-fan (1600RPM vs 1200RPM)
-load app (farcry vs orthos blend) <--this might not matter
I'm currently loading an E6400@3500 between 62C-66C w/ 1.475 in bios (1.43 actual) when running orthos blend.
Thanks again! Maybe orthos blend could be used in future or even ran again on past coolers? Reply
rochlin - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkThese results totally make sense if the laws of physics have anything to do with it.
There are some advantages to water cooling vs air, but you have to take advantage of them:
Heat dissipation and the high specific heat of water: Because the dissipation of heat is separated from the CPU, you can have a bigger and more efficient heat sink than you can ever fit on top of a cpu.
Also, because the heat dissipation (heat sink) is outside of the case, you can use the presumably cooler air outside the case to cool the heatsink.
The point is, the water needs to be cooled. If the heat sink/fan setup cooling the water is no better than what you attach to your cpu, then the system will NOT cool your cpu any better. You will be recirculating relatively warm water back to the cpu.
A sensible approach would be to build a giant heat sink. It could be aluminum (cheap) and big enough so the WHOLE case could sit on top of it. A channel for the water would zig zag under it. This kind of heat exchanger (like used in solar water systems) would cool the water much much more than anything you could fit inside the case.
The relatively small heat exchangers in the two tested units just aren't going to outperform the terrific Themalright 120 Extreme heatexchanger unless your air temps inside the case get out of hand. The advantage of the heat transfer capability of water is WASTED unless you cool it down with a better heat exchanger outside the case.
EODetroit - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkThe above is the best comment here. In the end, its all about heat radiation. If the air coolers have a better means for radiating heat than the water coolers, they'll win. Water usually did well because it radiated the heat outside the case and most importantly, they could have bigger radiators than the little HS&F inside the case.
With the modern high end air coolers, the radiators are huge (even if they're inside the relatively hot case). With the water cooler setups you tested, the radiators are small (small for a water radiator, even if its radiating to the outside air). Therefore you don't really need to see the numbers to know what the result will be.
To take advantage of water cooling, you need a big time radiator on the outside of the case... preferably with large fans that can push a lot of air through them without making a lot of noise. By testing radiators the size of a 120mm fan, you negate water cooling's biggest advantage.
Lem - Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - linkI kinda agree but...
I somewhat disagree with the reasoning because heatpipes transfer heat a lot better than the water tubes we see used with water cooling systems.
The only benefit of water cooling is basically the fact that you can transfer heat longer distances. This allows you to take advatage of big external heat sinks.
If there were long and flexible heatpipes out there, we would not even consider water. Reply
GhandiInstinct - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWe need more important articles like these, as well as DDR2 comparisons and GPU comparisons....
Anyway, I have one minor complaint, I wish the line graphs would be done away with as well as maybe labeling the names with a (AIR) and (WATER) so we know which performs best :)
(It's very hard to tell with the line graph) Reply
Jethrodood - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkI cant believe such a long standing tech site would draw such naive conclusions in the realm of cpu cooling. /scratches head.. Reply
JAG87 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkThis has to be one of the worst articles ever. It was decent until the very last page, where conclusions are drawn based on two cheap beginner water cooling kits, and one test platform.
First, don't say water cooling is bad when testing beginner All-in-one test kits. These are cheap, and they perform as much as they cost.
And second, try keeping an over clocked quad core below 60c at load with air cooling. Take a 3.6 to 4 Ghz quad, thats 200W of heat. Try cooling that with air, just try.
And you don't have to spend more than 300 for water cooling to beat air cooling. Example: Apogee GTX/Dtek Fuzion + MCR220/MCR320 + MCP655 + MCRES MICRO + 7/16ID tubing + a few zip ties = way less than 300 dollars.
Why don't you split your review into pricing categories, and then you can draw a conclusion for each price category, instead of calling shens on water cooling. Make a sub 200 dollar section, a 200-300 dollar section, and a 300+ section, and run tests for each. Then you can say, hey sub 200 kits are a waste of money, 200-300 kits are the sweet spot for CPU cooling, and 300+ kits are only for people who wish to water cool more than just the CPU.
Come on Wesley, we expect better from Anandtech. Reply
oopyseohs - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkAnd second, try keeping an over clocked quad core below 60c at load with air cooling. Take a 3.6 to 4 Ghz quad, thats 200W of heat. Try cooling that with air, just try.
I am by no means an advocate of water cooling, but I do appreciate the ability of water cooling to dissipate greater quantities of heat faster than air cooling. Maybe not faster (which is why you're getting better scores on a low TDP X6800), but more. I have tested the H20-120 Compact on QX6850's with Gabe and it's superiority to even the best air coolers is quite evident - even though it has just a single 120mm radiator.
While I don't think this is "one of the worst AnandTech articles ever", as a previous poster so delicately put it, I think it does bring to light an important flaw in your testing methodology for coolers: that the Core 2 Duo just does not generate anywhere near the heat of the increasingly-common Core 2 Quad. Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - linkI'm currently typing on a system with a Q6600 on an MSI P35 Platinum board with the jumpers set to the 333 bus speed, giving a 3.0GHz quad core. Tuniq tower at around 1400RPM, running quad Prime95 Speedfan shows core temps in the mid 50*C range. Reply
rallycobra - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkdoes anyone have actual temp data to support this? At some point does the aircooling show a non linear response to additional heat and the temp shoots much higher than water cooling? I'm not sure how this is possible. Reply
rallycobra - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkI disagree. This is an excellent article. An $80 Thermalright 120 ultra has better thermals/noise/cost/install. And no chance of a catastrophy with fluid! If the data is reliable, and I believe it is, there is no sense in anyone spending $150 on either of these kits.
I was thinking of getting the swiftech kit, since other reviews from less credible sources said it was better than any air solution, and then upgrading the radiator to a thermochill 120.3 and keeping the apogee drive. That is a $150 radiator with a $100 cpu block/pump.
It appears to me that you need to budget about $300 for fluid to be better than air. If you are going to go through the effort, go big or don't bother. I'm talking a huge radiator. If swiftech releases a kit with a 120.2 radiator for the same price, that may make sense.
Calin - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkBecause this was a review of a pre-made, as-sold water cooling setup. You mentioned he compared installation time with the air coolers?
The $50 and 15 minutes of installation for a top-end air cooler, compared to the hassle of buying all the afore-mentioned components and fitting them, for a $300 price point (maybe?)
I'd say he got the right conclusion, and the article was sound. It was not intended to the water cooling experts, but to people that would (maybe) choose a somewhat simple to install $150 solution instead of a simple to install $50 solution.
By the way, in all the list you put (Apogee GTX/Dtek Fuzion + MCR220/MCR320 + MCP655 + MCRES MICRO + 7/16ID tubing + a few zip ties), I only know for sure what zip ties are. Reply
rallycobra - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkI'm building a new quad system, and I was going to go with the swiftech kit, and upgrade to a 120x3 radiator in the future. For now, I'm going to stick to air.
Can you run the test again with a quad? Another site says that the swiftech outperforms all air solutions, but I trust your methodology a lot more.
Watercooling is elegant if you have the radiator outside the case, and you can cool the cpu, chipset and vga. It keeps the inside cool, and gets all of the heat out.
aigomorla - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkYour upgrading to 3x the cooling power this article previewed.
So if there saying a 120x1 will match a ultra120extreme, your saying 3x that cooling power isnt worth the migration.
*scratches my head*
This is what i mean about this article screwing people up in water migration. Reply
poisondeathray - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkThanks for the interesting review.
Given the increasing prevalence of quad-cores, it might be interesting to repeat the tests with an overclocked quad core configuration.
Although the testbed was different, at least 1 other hardware site got better results with similar watercooling vs. Tuniq. Reply
gingerstewart55 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkI wonder what was wrong with your setups and your pumps. Having had the Corsair Nautilus 500 unit, and the pump the Swiftech kit is based upon, something is/was seriously wrong with your setup or pumps.
The Corsair unit's fan, at least in the one I used, drowned out the pump completely.
The Laing pump in the Swiftech kit, the same pump in the Corsair kit by the way, is sitting in my computer and is utterly silent....completely drowned out by any of the four fans in the case....three Scythe S-Flex "E" fans, at 22 dBA on full speed, and an Antec SpotCooler on lowest speed (the Antec is the loudest fan in the case, btw.)
I'd almost hazard a guess that both kits, after being set up, still had a bubble/pocket of air in the pump. The Laing pump can get quite noisy if no completely bled of air.
Otherwise, there was a mechanical fault in both your kits' pumps as the Laing is almost completely silent when working as attested to by the hundreds of people using those pumps and hearing absolutely nothing from them when being used.
Nickel020 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkYou need at mod top for the Laing pump, it's unbearable without one, but if decoupled almost unhearable with a good top. Reply
Wesley Fink - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWe tested both systems as provided by Swiftech and Corsair. Both units are provided as complete kits and both manufacturers are familiar with our cooler test methods.
Modding everything we test defeats the purpose of our comparative testing.
We are not finished with water cooling reviews, and we will be reviewing more water cooling systems in the future. Reply
Nickel020 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkThat's not hwo I meant it, of course you shouldn't mod the kits for testing. I was just saying that the Laing is not a bad pump for custom setups, in fact, it's pretty much the best pump for most setups if you use a mod top, which makes a big difference. I don't think I've ever seen a pic om someone using it without a mod top, but dozens with all kinds of mod tops. Reply
Wesley Fink - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkI first thought there was a pump defect as well. So I acquired FIVE Apogee drive blocks from different sources and all measured similar dbA noise levels. There was also the 6th pump in the Corsair Nautilus 500.
Subjectively the pumps were relatively quiet because the noise frequencies appear to fall in a freqency range that is not particularly annoying. However, our standard sound meter said measured noise was pretty high. We stated this in the review and also commented the pump noise was not annoying to our ears, but it may be to others. Measure the noise of your system and let us know what you find. Reply
psychotix11 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkThese two set-ups do not represent the top end of water cooling. It's long been past the point where a single 120mm rad is enough for a CPU.
Toss these out and replace them with a custom set up with a dtek fuzion CPU block, 2x 120mm fan rad, ddc pump with petras top, and 1/2 id tubing and then see where it gets you.
Also liquid cool the chipset and then see if stock air can keep up (after), it won't.
You're taking two premade kits made for the user that has never water cooled before. It's simply not in the same category as the higher end custom kits. Reply
Wesley Fink - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWe did not state water cooling was always inferior to the top air coolers. We said, based on these test results and others we have run recently, that you would need to spend more than $300 on a water cooling system that might outperform the best air coolers.
At more than 4 to 6 times the price of a top air cooler most readers would not conseder that good value.
I actually agree with your comments, but please tell us the total cost of the water cooling setup you say is needed to beat the best air coolers. Reply
psychotix11 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkBut water cooling has never been about the best price for the buck. The same can be said of any high end parts. Extreme intel, amd FX, 8800gtx, SLI, none of this makes sense for the price you pay.
Water cooling falls right into that category. If you really want it to show it's teeth load up an 8800 SLI system, build a custom loop at the 300 and 500 price point, water cool everything, and then compare temps.
Obviously it's going to cost a lot more, but this is a given.
You're article seems to hint that air cooling is better then water cooling, this isn't the case at all. All it shows is that high end air cooling is a better value then a water cooling kit designed for a novice on a budget.
As for "might" and 300, that's wrong as well. My apogee gt + lian DDC, + mcr 220 2x yate loons push, pentosion did drop my temps over a tuniqu tower. The water blocks on the 8800's with an mcr 320 moved even more hot air out of my case and temps dropped more. That CPU loop costs less then 300.
So, DDC pump $65, mcr 220 45, apogee gt 45, and about 30 bucks for fans, tubing and anti corrosive. Brings you to about 200, hardly the 300. Reply
EODetroit - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkNext time water cool the video card as well, and compare it against the CPU and video card on Air. OC both the video card and CPU and see how far they go. Then measure system noise. I agree with your conclusion that if you're only going to water cool your CPU, that you might as well go with a new air cool instead. But the CPU isn't the only expensive, hot, noisy thing in the case. In fact, the GPU is for many or most of us more expensive, hotter, and noisier.
You shouldn't pretend the GPU isn't there. Water cool it as well and compare it THEN against air cooling.
Lonyo - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkYou forgot another element of one of your watercooling setups.
It's external.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try looking at other temperatures, e.g. graphics card, motherboard, HDD, when doing these tests.
The heat has to go somewhere. With an air cooler it stays inside the case before passing by the graphics card and getting pushed out the back of the case.
With an external watercooling setup it gets transferred outside without going over the graphics card/motherboard, and hence internally other components beside the CPU should in theory be cooler.
My view is that the main advantage of watercooling is the low CPU temps combined with lower internal case temps, since I wouldn't think of running water with an internal radiator. Reply
Nickel020 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkI don't understand how you reached the conclusion, that good air cooling is better than sub 300$ water cooling by testing two sub 150$ water cooling kits.
I have recently upgrade from a lapped Scythe Infinity to a 300$ wattercooling setup and at a maximum fan speed of ~1300 rpm (two fans dual radiator) the watercooling beats air by 10K but is little bit noisier since the fans sit at the top of the case. At 7V it's less noisier than the Infinity and still about 5K cooler.
Please test a real 200+$ watercooling setup before drawing such conclusions. The test clearly shows that cheapw atercooling isn't worth it, but starting at about 200$ watercooling will beat air cooling if you choose good components.
Here's a link to jstu about the ebst setup for 250$:
The waterblock is one of the ebst available, the Swiftech radiators are great for the price and with a modded top the Laing pupm is very quiet and has a excellent performance.
I'd very much like to see Anandtech finally review some proper water cooling!
PS: The review is otherwise very nice, finally a good review that compares low end watercooling with top-end air cooling. Reply
poohbear - Monday, September 17, 2007 - link
Please test a real 200+$ watercooling setup before drawing such conclusions. The test clearly shows that cheapw atercooling isn't worth it, but starting at about 200$ watercooling will beat air cooling if you choose good components.
Here's a link to jstu about the ebst setup for 250$:
dude, that link shows it's $250!!! i can get the thermalright 120 extreme for $65... the choice seems like an absolute no brainer to most.
retrospooty - Monday, September 17, 2007 - link"'d very much like to see Anandtech finally review some proper water cooling!
PS: The review is otherwise very nice, finally a good review that compares low end watercooling with top-end air cooling."
Agreed. It would be great to see a full review, including a few high end kits, cooling graphics cards as well, since that IS how they are used.
This is a high end "best of the best" air cooler against 2 low end "mediocre" water kits. Reply
Wesley Fink - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWe have also tested two kits closer to $300 in price from top water cooler manufacturers and they did not beat our top air cooler results. The Infinity was not a top performer in our test results unless it was driving a dual push-pull fan configuration. Stock it was slighly worse than the two water coolers we tested in this review.
Also, Intel, Swiftech, Thermalright and others have now found that a convex base improves cooling performance mounted to current Intel CPU caps which are manufactured not flat to improve cooling performance. Lapping your Infinity prbably did no harm but lapping a thermalright would likely decrease performance. Swiftech in the past was a strong advocate of flat mirro-finish bases, but they now use the intentionally bowed plate on their top water blocks to improve cooling and overclocking. Reply
Nickel020 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWell the problem with watercoolig is that no big manufacturer offers a good kit, you absolutely need to mix and match parts from different manufacturers.
Go to the forums here or at xtremesystems.org and everybody will confirm that a *well chosen* 300$ watercooling will beat any air cooling. You just need the right components, like in the ones in that kit.
And I know about the lapping/bowing, I lapped my CPU as well and got a 13K lower temperature with both lapped than before. A bowed cooller usually has the advantage since almost all heatspreaders are concave, therefore a convex cooler is needed to make a good contact. But if you lap both CPU and cooler you're usually better off if you do it right.
I would love to see you review a watercooling setup with good components, there almost no reviews on the net comparing good watercooling to top-end aircooling. Reply
yyrkoon - Monday, September 17, 2007 - link
The multiple liquid-filled heatpipes and the large, quiet, high-output fans in use today have taken air cooling to new performance levels. Our testing here at AnandTech supports the vastly superior performance of the heatpipe tower compared to the older air cooling designs. With these results in mind, it is time to revisit the question: is water cooling still the best performer?
I think the real questions are . . . is it really worth the Hassle/danger/cost.
Even a $300usd water cooling system is not a good water cooling system, and one that uses less than 1/2 tubing/waterbloccks etc, is not a good water cooling setup.
Anyhow, I am not an advocate of water cooling, and I have been saying air is better than water for a long time now (couple of years), not because of cooling performance alone, but because of the three things mentioned above . . .Hassle/danger(or risk if you like)/costs. Building a top notch cooling system would set you back about $400 a year ago, now, probably more like $500-$600, but I wouldnt know for a fact, beause water cooling for PCs is like 4x4's with a 128 inch lift kit, its made to compensate for something, perhaps a small . . . CPU( or more likely something else) ? Reply
poohbear - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkwell i'll be damed, i never considered watercooling cause it was too exotic and expensive, but it seems there's no point considering it to begin w! the best aircoolers are quieter AND run cooler than watercooling. Thanks for showing this fantabulous change of events anandtech. Reply
Gul Westfale - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkwatercooling is still worth it ig=f you have th emoney; th etwo setups tested here are not exactly the best coolers available. also, the statement in teh article that watercoolers are quieter than aircoolers is ridiculous, after all a watercooler still has a fan thta blows air through the radiator, and that fan is jst as quiet (or noisy) as an aircooler... unless you go witth zalman's fanless reserator design.
i'm afraid the conclusion of this article tries to tell you that all watercoolers perform like these two here, but that is simply not so. other, better systems include the aforementioned zalman reserator, the koolance exos, and several more advanced setups from swiftech. if you are interested in this, frozencpu.com is a good site to do some window sopping :0 Reply
Wesley Fink - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWe state you will likely need to spend more than $300 to possibly outperform current top air coolers. We have recently tested several systems near that price point and stand by that statement based on our tests results.
We did not say water cooling is quieter, we just said many reviews over the years have stated water cooling to be the quieter solution. As we showed in our review that is no longer thacase unless you buy a much more expensive water system. If you read carefully you will also see we found the water pump to be the biggest noise maker and not the radiator fan.
Finally, water cooling will have to be eons better than air if we need to spend more tha 6 times the top air cooler price just to match performance of the best air coolers. The only compelling argument in favor of water in our opinion is the ability to add video cooling blocks and possibly chipset blcos to a water system - but that cost is also high.
You CAN buy or build a superior water system if you spend big bucks, but as one expert water cooler showed me in his tests results he had yet to find a water cooling kit that outperformed the best air coolers. His own monster water cooler was a custom built and very expensive water cooling system. If I need to go to those prices I can buy phase-change coolers that have a chance of creating sub-ambient CPU temperatures. Reply
haelduksf - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkI'm sorry, but I don't believe you. I'm running a $200 loop, with CPU *and* GPU blocks, and getting 34 degree load temps (folding) on my q6600. Nothing special- 240mm rad, fuzion CPU block, Silverprop GPU block... frankly, you must be doing something wrong if you can't do better on water than on air.
Plus, as others mentioned, this loop will cool any computer I own for the next 10 years, which no air cooler can claim. Reply
mpc7488 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkNice article Wes, and good way to phrase it - water cooling solutions under $300 cannot outperform top air coolers. Reply
Nickel020 - Monday, September 17, 2007 - link
Finally, water cooling will have to be eons better than air if we need to spend more tha 6 times the top air cooler price just to match performance of the best air coolers. The only compelling argument in favor of water in our opinion is the ability to add video cooling blocks and possibly chipset blcos to a water system - but that cost is also high.
But you also need to consider that you'll use watercooling for a long time. I just recently bought my watercooling, but my 45$ waterblock was already available 3 years ago, lots of people that bought it then for a Athlon XP/754 system are still using it on a Core 2 today, and it's still very good. In the last 4 years I've had 3 different 50+$ air coolers in my main rig, that kind of adds up as well.
Watercooling is a big initial investment, but pump and radiators will last you 5+ years and waterblocks last several years as well. If you're a guy that buys one 50+$ heatsink a year, then watercooling is only marginally more expensive (if at all) then air. Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, September 19, 2007 - linkThe only reasons to upgrade to a newer cooler (air or water) is if either the performance is significantly better, or the cooler does not support whatever socket you move to in the future. These factors are the same for air or water, so in theory both should have a similar lifespan. If water cooling sees improvements in the next few years the way air has in the past few years, you would probably upgrade your water setup sooner than you think as well. Reply
KeypoX - Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - linkthat is not true i bought the koolance case/water cooler years ago and it was no match for my current air cooler. On top of that the water block i had bought the 200 koolance was dropped and no longer supported for newer chip sets.
I had a athlon 2600xp OC with the water cooler but it wasnt as good as air. And it had to much upkeep and a TON of noise.
RamIt - Monday, September 17, 2007 - linkWhat happened to paet two of the micro atx motherboard roundup? Reply

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Results 1 to 20 of 1385
[VS] Rock, Planet, Shotgun: Outfit discussion & organisation
Message to new / prospective members who have found their way here:
Welcome. This thread is full of all sorts of information such as why we wear giraffe camo and why our leaders are called Balloons. It's a good place to post questions about the outfit, but you would be mad to try and read it all!
If you want to know how to join us, check out this:
For an idea of what we are about, check out our manifesto:
For much more info, head to the outfit guide:
In general, most of the info about the outfit can be found on our website at www.rockplanetshotgun.com
If you have any questions, please post them in this thread.
The best way to find out what we are about and what Planetside 2 offers is to just hop in and play with us. We will always welcome new people, and they can join in whenever. For details on how to setup Planetside 2 and MUmble communications, check out the stickied posts in these forums.
Rock, Planet, Shotgun
[RPS] Is huge. Really huge. When I first started this thread we had grown to over 200 players in total and I thought we would need somewhere to properly discuss the outfit. We now have over 250 people active in the last week and over 800 total members.
This thread initially served as a catch all for all aspects of outfit organisation and discussion. We're too big to have just one thread for that, as can be seen by the numerous threads for specific issues that have become more common.
To that end, I have started a thread for "Purple Giraffes of Awesome" and will copy posts with existing awards there. I have also started a thread for outfit promotions and ranks, though I will keep old suggestions here.
This thread remains a place to discuss any goings on in the outfit in general. We still have a lot to talk about with those small issues removed from here. Feel free to start new threads for what seem to be bigger issues that need dedicated space, but most discussion can take place here.
Call to arms post below. Original post below that.
If you have come here from the RPS front page post, welcome.
You need to know one thing: Rock Planet Shotgun was created with one sole purpose. To provide a fun a friendly place for readers of Rock Paper Shotgun to play Planetside 2.
We have over 700 members, of which 130 are regular (log in at least once a week) and usually get about 40 people playing on every night of the week. If tomorrow is anything like last time, expect over 100 RPS players this Thursday "Call to Arms"!
We are also closely engaged with other outfits and so not only will you be playing alongside dozens of RPS readers you will be playing in coordination with hundreds of other players. This is the uniqueness of Planetside 2. Little else gets anywhere near this scale.
That being said, you shouldn't feel like a tiny cog in a big machine playing with us. For the Call To Arms event we will be playing in groups of 12. We work tactically, but do not expect the kind of mock-military nonsense you might find elsewhere.
We manage to strike a balance between being relaxed and friendly yet make an impact strategically and tactically. I don't know how we manage this and I try not to think about it too much just in case.. In any event we have fostered a playign environment I think we can rightly be proud of, and we're very happy to welcome you.
We have one rule. Be excellent to one another.
We are open to all skill levels. Please do not worry if you have never played PS2 or even an FPS before. We will have people on hand specifically to get people into and understanding the game.
How to play with us in 3 steps
1. Download Planetside 2 & Create a Character
The download is not insignificant. Get in running in advance of Thursday night if possible
For EU players go to:
www.planetside2.euIt is advised that you do not download via Steam. There have been issues with the Steam version of the game with EU accounts in the past and it is not clear if these have been resolved
For Players with an existing SOE account:
If you know you have an SOE account, go to:www.planetside2.com
downlaod from Steam
Create a character for the Vanu Sovereignty empire on the Miller server.
(You may have to select "show all servers" in character creation.)
If you want to play the New Conglomerate faction, then our sister outfit Rock, Traitor, Shotgun should be happy to accommodate you. They play on the same server.
2. Download Mumble & Join our channels
All the details can be found in this thread:
3. Login with your character and ask for an invite to our outfit & platoon
And you will be good to go.
Some basics of play can be found here:
But you will be talked through everything that happens by people dedicated to explaining things to new players.
Original post:
It is no secret that Planetside 2 is not the easiest and intuitive game to pick up. If you have played before but bounced off, please do try playing with us, it might make all the difference.
Ok, so, the Rock, Planet, Shotgun outfit is larger than I ever reasonably expected. Like, huge. Massive. Bloody absurd if you ask me. I thought there might be a couple of dozen of us bundling about shooting lasers, not over 200...
I fully expect turnouts to drop as the weeks go by and people realise PS2 is 'not for them', but it's no insubstantial base we've started with.
So, apart from needing somewhere to discuss & organise the outfit, a few questions:
1) Any preference towards bothering-or-not with outfit ranks?
Anarchist leanings push me towards having absolutely everyone as 'member'. As little hierarchy as possible.
I also realise that sometimes people like / deserve recognition for work being put in with fancy little stacked Vs. There's a bunch of you purple peeps putting in the effort (thanks!) and creating some excellent squad / platoon / general friendliness experiences. Is outfit ranking the best way to go about recognising this? (see also; below!)
2) More organised outings?
Wednesdays seem to have got brilliantly shambolic. This is a good thing. Loud, chatty, messy laser shoots are excellent.
That being said, some people have expressed a desire for something a bit more coordinated. Also; I spent 100 certs in that bloody command chat, I might as well do something with it.
So: Any desire to arrange some kind of "let's shoot lasers with a bit more attention to where we aim them" get together? If so, when? Regular? Ad hoc?
Announcing the Purple Giraffe of Awesome Awards
Because people / we are awesome. Sometimes it's nice to recognise this.
Also, if you think about it, a giraffes silhouette is a bit like a thumbs-up. Which is a traditional way of indicating an appreciation of someone's awesome. Expect better. Because it's a purple giraffe. Obv.
Awarded for actions deemed awesome. Can be anything from leading vast platoons to neon drenched glory to being a particularly amusing drunk. Or just an outstandingly decent person. We like those.
Anyone can award this to anyone else in the outfit for any reason they like.
Directons: Google image search "purple giraffe". Choose one. Post it here with the intended recipient and why they are awesome.
Last edited by Cooper; 07-06-2013 at 03:23 PM."KING GEORGE IS A FROG
le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~
Purple giraffe of awesome: Awarded to Rotekian for that time he helped me check the tyre pressure on my Sunderer."KING GEORGE IS A FROG
le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~
For the moment I'm happy with the ad-hoc hopping on sunderer/galaxy and wreak some havoc approach. I also don't have a mic yet so participating in something more organized would be hard.
Also there is a surprising amount of pictures of purple giraffes in the internet.
Awarded to Arthur for being a great squad lead.
As for everything else: I dont care about ranks and so on, but I think the platoons should be a bit more structured, and I think, to be honest, that they were too large last night. I think we could have gone for 3 and completely taken over huge parts of the map, instead of losing them shortly afterwards anyway.
Also, I think we should start forming squads by type; ie. infantry squads, vehicle squads, air squads. Though this obviously isnt always applicable; especially if you get shot down and have to wait a bunch for vehicle/resource respawn.- Tom De Roeck.
verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.
"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it." - The Conclave
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
- Posts
- 37
Well, organisation in an online-game is pretty abhorrent to many people. But if some people crave more order, why not - isn't there a good compromise ? Put up an ordered structure, but reserve a squad or two for anyone who just wants to be given a target with not further interference 'from above'. Anyone who just wants to hop on to have some fun can then easily just sort themselves in there and have a go. And if even getting handed a 'take down the crown using spoons' order seems like to much stress on a particular evening, people might just take a break by doing their own thing.
If other squads feel the need for military precision, the can easily fit themselves into the structure as they see fit. Someone in the general Miller VS thread for example suggested an LA squad using Flashes for fast inserts, which sounds like it might need to be organized quite a bit. Anyone interested in that could just join that squad.
Ranks - I don't care if they come in or not. If people want or think it's useful to put another symbol on their name then cool.
Squads - I was the one talking about the LAs on flashes. I think if we have enough members we can very easily have squads of varying degrees of organization from "lets zerg and find adventure!" to "lets sneak around as a small squad and blitzkrieg the outer bases as a distraction". We can all work together anyway!
I think the comment about being too large is true. I don't think we have too many players, but I think we might have too many players in one place at one time. We should spread out, not too thinly, but enough that we're still powerful enough to hold a good fight, but not clumped up too much that we're just taking a base and moving on only to lose that base five minutes after we're gone.
Awarded to Cooper for organizing this whole thing and his "amazing" sundy driving skills
Well there could be the Member rank everyone gets and then some kind of Shiny Member rank above for those who pull more than their weight.
And I do think a bit more structure could be needed when there is large amount of players, with squad leaders making sure their squads are going in correct direction and at least in same area.
As a sidenote, a herd of giraffes is called a tower, if anyone fancies some wordplaying. On another sidenote, it seems the giraffe camo is very popular among people, heck even TotalBiscuit uses it.
Last edited by Sceptrum; 29-11-2012 at 05:34 PM.[B]Steam:[/B] krusader83 | [B][COLOR=#ff8c00]O[/COLOR]rigin:[/B] Sceptrum
[B]Planetside 2:[/B] [COLOR=#4b0082]SceptrumVS (Miller)[/COLOR] : [COLOR=#0000ff]SceptrumNC (Cobalt)[/COLOR] : [COLOR=#ff0000]SceptrumTR (Cobalt)[/COLOR]
I am all for more organised events (not on wednesdays of course). I think with the current size, we should easily be able to put together at least one squad for any level of serious-business-ness with some before notice.
For ranks, i am not entirely sure. The Eve player of four years says 'Of course, without making clear who has proven that is able to lead a squad, someone will get us all killed.' Then again, this is not Eve Online and getting oneselves killed is the norm and has no big drawback.
So i believe they are not needed for organization, we do not need to designate responibilities because everybody can do everything with little to no risk. And i believe for people who want such responsibilities to be assigned, there are other outfits.
However, i think that they could be a nice way to acknowledge peoples work. If someone spends insane amounts of certs in creating the best sunderer possible and goes out of his way to make it available for forum-organized squads, some recognization does not hurt.
Or spends time to organize this whole mess, but i believe we cannot promote Cooper any further...
Have this instead:
An unfortunate side-effect of Planetside 2's single-server character system (and uber-expensive weapon certs) means that there is almost no mixing betwee the European and American outifts, but I'd actually love if it we did the same thing with ranks, since I've been pondering the same question myself.
The question is, if you make everyone a member, what powers do you give to them? Obviously not the power to disband the outfit or kick people (but then, who can do the latter?).
what I mean by that is, though: if people are overly TKing, obviously working against you, maybe even joining as spies for other outfits (doubt this will bring anything, really). If for any reason they are not organised enough, Im sure just moving to another squad or platoon would do the trick, not really necessary to kick them out of an outfit.
However, something I omited, and I am proud to say the Perpetuum Online branch of RPS does very well is: be excellent to each other, also "your enemies". I would seriously kick people out of outfit if theyre talking crap about and to other players all the time. That is simply that which breeds dissent.
Or, we just let everyone in, no rules and have a grand fuckparty, both is honestly fine by me.- Tom De Roeck.
verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.
"Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it." - The Conclave
I think Aerothorn has a point though. With that massive influx of new members, it would most likely be a good idea if at most time there was someone on who can kick people. Allthough it is easy to forget on RPS, this is still the internet. Should someone misbehave over the top, it would be a huge hassle to wait for Cooper to come online before it is possible to get rid of them. And i am pretty sure we have more than enough trusted regulars who would not abuse such powers.
For ranks I see no need to go any further than:
Figurehead - Because games expect there to be one person in charge.
Shouty people - People willing to be the voice that tells other people what to do, just so everyone else can see who is supposed to be giving the orders
Unwashed masses - Because deep down most of us just want to be grunts, tell me which direction to point my gun and I'll try not to shoot you in the back.
Having someone calling targets made last night the most fun I've had in the game, it felt like we had objectives rather than just following the guy in front (even though I did very little other than a bit of healing and a lot of falling over).
Totally missed this thread. Yes, I think we should have designated leaders for more organized outings pretty much every day - sporadic ones, not planned. One rank for platoon leaders, one rank for squad leaders, and another rank for all soldiers. This is to make them stand out and so that you know that that person is a leader and is up for the job. No more questions regarding who wants to lead.
I have somewhat of an anarchistic leaning as well, but in this game hierarchy and order can make the game much more enjoyable. I don't mean one dude shouting constantly above all others, but if we have one platoon leader and a few squad leaders those people have say over who does what. This could also be organized in mumble where squads are in their squad chat and the platoon leader speaks to all via linked channels.
Right now it can get messy when its about 30+ people on, as you have people trying to communicate in their area and everyone else talking about other stuff. It can also be hard for a leader to be heard.
Shall we take a list with people willing to lead then, that also are certed for it?
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Posts
- 39
In terms of ranks I don't see a reason to go further than squad leader, platoon leader, leader - with ranks possibly changing prior to each organized outing - they would be more like functions not titles.
That way during the game there would be some organization when we need it and that beautiful back-shooting chaos on all the other occasions.
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Location
- Finland
- Posts
- 4
I very much like the idea of somewhat organized squads, e.g. the squad of Light Assaults and Infiltrators on Flashes tearing up enemy forts causing distractions simply sounds brilliant.
As for ranks and overall leadership, I'd have to agree with reyn78 - ranks could be like functions. If there is the need to be more organized, some people could be elevated to a "higher" position for that outing. Or something..shouldn't be forced though. In my opinion something similar has already been going on in Mumble - we seem to have people willing to go straight for strategizing moves and generally trying to make sense of the chaos that goes on in the game. That's awesome.
Btw, I see purple giraffes at work every day.
As for just starting to strategize, I've done that a bit, and it was loads of fun and worked out okay. It's just that you can feel like a bit of a dick saying hey I wanna lead, especially when you're new. I just spoke up since no one else did, and then it worked out that way. It seems like people generally do not want to lead as well, and this could perhaps be a reason why.
Hierarchy could be organised as Outfit "Obergruppenfuhrer", Platoon Leaders, Squad Leaders and Cannon Fodder.
Personally, I'd prefer to be one of the "Unwashed Masses" as I'm better at following orders than giving them..
Given the numbers we have (at the moment), it should be up to the PLs to assign objectives on a tactical level, with the OGF designating overall strategy.
For facilities with a single cap point the platoon moves as 1 unit, but for multiple cap points each squad is given it's own objective (Alpha to point A, Bravo to point B, Charlie to point C, and Delta possibly acting as a reserve supporting whichever squad is meeting stiff resistance).
Armour and Air cover should be sorted on a per platoon basis. At the moment we tend to have too many sunderers per squad (2 , sometimes 3 at a time), when the 2nd driver would be better as armour or air cover.
Platoon make up should be organised a bit more so that an adequate number air and armour specialists are available to each platoon. Infantry should be free to select which ever class is most useful to their squad as current conditions require at that point in time.
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In Feldspar's cateogrisation, I'm probably one of the shouty people. Having a little more organisation would be preferable for me. Not at the expense of fun, but having squad roaming as squads and working together would be great. The idea of leading a dedicated squad of Light Assaults into battle is very exciting*
*Also, I'm lousy behind a gun, but not bad at having an idea of the bigger picture.[QUOTE]Technology is a bad thing, people[COLOR=#1D1D1D][FONT=Arial]
[/QUOTE] - Wizardry


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Some of us are so caught up in the chase to nail Alex Rodriguez for PED use, that we might forget A-Rod is part of another chase — he's inching toward Willie Mays' 660 career homers. Passing Mays would put A-Rod fourth on the all-time list behind (in order) Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth.
With a suspension looming, it's a possibility that A-Rod might never make it to 660. But he hit another significant home-run threshold on Monday night, slamming his 650th career homer. It came off a floating R.A. Dickey knuckleball, which Rodriguez powered into right field in the Yankees 5-2 loss to the Blue Jays. Dickey, it's worth mentioning, also gave up Ichiro Suzuki's 4,000th career hit last week.
A-Rod reaching Mays — whether you want him to or not — is important to watch from a historical standpoint, but also, in A-Rod's case, from a financial one. He'd get a $6 million bonus for doing so. Can he? Let's look at some numbers:
So far this season, A-Rod has hit three homers in 70 at-bats, a rate that is (not-surprisingly) worse than his 15.0 career AB/HR average. Assuming his current AB/HR rate and averaging his at-bats per game this season, A-Rod would need 60 games to hit 10 more homers. The Yankees have 31 regular season games left, so he obviously couldn't catch Mays in 2013 based on those projections.
It's likely, though, that A-Rod starts hitting homers more frequently as he gets more comfortable at the plate. Projecting 15.0 AB/HR (which is generous for 2013 A-Rod), it would take him 39 games to hit those 10 homers. So it's pretty unlikely that he matches Mays this season unless he goes on quite a tear — like in 2007 when homered in every 10.8 at-bats.
That was a career-best, which would be virtually impossible for 38-year-old A-Rod to match. We're talking about a guy who hit 18 homers in 122 games last season (that's 25.7 AB/HR), and that was before a second hip surgery.
If A-Rod's appeal-pending suspension knocks him out of action for all or even a big chunk of 2014, there's no telling what player we'd see afterward. That, coupled with his diminishing power numbers, should be enough for Mays loyalists to feel good about A-Rod not touching 660.
Baseball season's in full swing. Don't miss a thing.
Follow @MikeOz and @bigleaguestew, on Twitter, along with the BLS Facebook page.


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I know multiple files are better and prefered, especially as the program gets larger and larger. Which makes sense in theory, to organize them.
However it seems for me, the opposite is true. I find it makes more sense having fewer files/modules and larger single files. Before i thought i was just a newbie and that is that. But now i think i figured out why this is so. Every time i try to split my program into multiple files, or create from scratch a program with multiple files, whereas it normally feels comfortable to have it all in one class, i get confused. I try to reprogram what is in another module in this module, pretty much reinventing the wheel that i invented a module ago. However when i have larger fewer files, i dont re program what i already programmed.
Here is a perfect example of what i mean. This is a program i wrote in the last 2 days. The remake of my original quit smoking program.
The original program is one single file. When i want to search for a piece of code in it to "modify" or whatever, i know exactly where to go. I also never rewrote code in it.
However this is the newer version. With in the last 2 days i have split this code and that code up to different modules, pretty much to the point i confused myself. IF i need smoething, i am not sure which modules it is in. I also think i rewrote code in multiple modules to do the same thing.
So i guess the over all thing is, i find it easier to program fewer larger files with a class that does a lot, rather than smaller files with a class that does this and a class that does that, etc.
Of course I could just be losing my mind from this quit smoking, i dont know.
I would like to not get into a bad habit and be set in my ways before i realize that they are bad habits.
If you dont want to download it and just get the gist of it:
this is the program with multiple files
- Code: Select all
metulburr@ubuntu:~/programs/quit smoking terminal$ ls
database.py __pycache__ term_display.py timing.py
main.py quitsmoking.dat timing~
metulburr@ubuntu:~/programs/quit smoking terminal$
and the original program is all that plus more (GUI) in one class in one file.


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Welcome to the first volume of the collected works of writer A.J. Kirby. There's something in this mix for everyone; from straight literary fiction to horror and from flights of the fantastic to bizarro. Stick your feet up, crank up your favourite tunes and enjoy! Features previously published stories such as 'No Two Snowflakes are the Same', 'The Sticky End of the Wrong', 'By Hook or by Crook', and 'The One Wish Foundation.'
More books by A. J. Kirby
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Below, exclusively for Foyles, Sophie reflects on the impact of social media and how it has made the world less safe for teenagers.
We all know a good book is worth the wait. But the waiting is also really hard when you're dying to read that hotly anticipated thriller or the latest volume of a great series. Here at Foyles we've got you covered.
Indie publisher ZED Books have a radical approach to their books and their company structure. Here, they talk to us about the role independent publishers can play in a world of ever expanding (and less than reliable) information sources.


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By Albert J. Neri, Pure Matters
When do you need a vitamin or a supplement? Some researchers say that a daily multivitamin may be a good idea for most adults, according to the Harvard School of Public Health.
That's not to say you should abandon good nutrition in your daily diet. If you eat a varied diet with lots of fruits and vegetables, you're likely to get all the vitamins and minerals that you need.
If you take a dietary supplement that focuses just on one or two nutrients, you may end up with too much of those nutrients, interfering with the absorption of other nutrients.
What are vitamins and minerals?
Vitamins are complex organic micronutrients, which is a fancy way of saying that they work at the microscopic level to help your body carry on complex chemical processes. They have no calories themselves, and with a few exceptions, they're not manufactured inside your body. Some vitamins help in biochemical transformations, such as absorbing oxygen in the lungs. Others act as "antioxidants," protecting tissues from disease-causing damage and premature aging.
Minerals are naturally occurring inorganic elements your body needs to function. Minerals allow the body to build some structures and help trigger some bodily reactions. Iron, for example, is a key to the production of hemoglobin in the red blood cells. Calcium is used to build bone and tissues. Zinc is essential for nerve transmission. Compared with vitamins, minerals have a very simple molecular structure. And unlike some vitamins, cooking does not destroy their essential nutrients.
Vitamin details
Here's a look at some of the important vitamins:
- Vitamin A. This vitamin helps you see in the dark. It helps with the production of white blood cells, is important in bone health and regulates cell growth, say Harvard researchers. The current recommended intake of vitamin A is 3,000 international units (IU) for men and 2,310 IU for women. Fortified breakfast cereals, juices, and dairy products, as well as many fruits and vegetables contain vitamin A.
- B vitamins. Folic acid plays a key role in preventing birth defects. Folic acid and other B vitamins may help prevent heart disease and stroke. The recommended daily intake of folic acid is 400 micrograms (mcg); folic acid is found in dark green leafy vegetables, fortified breakfast cereals and grains, and beans. Vitamin B6: 1.3 to 1.7 mg daily. Vitamin B12: 1.2 to 2.8 mcg daily.
- Vitamin C. Vitamin C helps control infections, as well as plays a role in bone, teeth, gums, and blood vessel health. The current recommended daily intake is 90 mg for men and 75 mg for women. Vitamin C is found in citrus fruits and juices, berries, bell peppers, tomatoes, broccoli, potatoes, and spinach.
- Vitamin D. This vitamin is important for bone health, but many Americans don't get enough of this vitamin. Spending some time in the sun each day helps your body manufacture vitamin D. The requirement for this vitamin is 5 mcg up to age 50, 10 mcg from age 51 to age 70, and 15 mcg after age 70. Good sources of vitamin D are fortified dairy products and breakfast cereals, and salmon, tuna, and other fatty fish.
People in need
Some people can benefit from taking a supplement in addition to a healthy diet, however. According to the American Dietetic Association, a vitamin supplement may be helpful if you fit any of the following profiles:
- You frequently skip meals or don't eat enough fruits, vegetables, grain, and dairy products.
- You're on a low-calorie diet.
- You're a strict vegetarian.
- You can't drink milk or eat yogurt.
- You're a woman of childbearing age and don't eat fruits and vegetables.
- You are pregnant.
If you believe you should take vitamin supplements, talk with your doctor or dietitian to make sure you are taking the correct amount and that the supplements are not causing an interaction with medications you take or conditions you have.
Source: Pure Matters
Copyright Internet Broadcasting. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


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Face Sculpt Serum Excalibur - d-age - Mod.Skin Labs
OMG ... every once in a while, along comes a product that seriously grabs my attention & the Mod.Skin Labs Face Sculpt Serum is one of those. If you suffer from a loss of elasticity, you just like your skin to feel firm & refined, or you had one too many vodka martini's last night, you stayed out partying 'til 4am and have to go to work ... this is a wonderful skin pick me up - literally! Best of all, for those of us who need a quick fix, it works in about 20mins. DMAE, is a powerful amino acid derived from nature that improves cell membrane function, which in turn improves tone and elasticity. Klamath blue-green algae, restores condition & boosts moisture content in the epidermis, resulting in a silky smooth feel to skin, and increased epidermal strength & resilience. Biologically active chlorophyll present in the algae purifies and oxygenates. Talk about a powerhouse! So do what you will with your indulgences, just make sure you have a bottle of this on hand to firm up the aftermath.


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Wednesday, December 12, 2012
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