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Fall Clean-up (City/County)
Fall clean-up efforts will be Oct. 5 through 12 in both Franklin County and the City of Mount Vernon. Residents are urged to clean both public and private areas in preparation for the influx of visitors to the community for CountryFest, Homecoming and Wine in the Pines. Free disposal of refuse is offered at various sites during this period.
Furniture, including couches, chairs, bedding items and appliances, will be accepted. Citizens are asked to place metal and wood products in designated locations at the sites for special disposal or recycling. Items such as refrigerators and air conditioning units should have their cooling units removed.
None of the collection sites will be accepting tires, roofing materials or commercial refuse from construction sites. The city will not accept batteries at their dumpster; however, Pct. 1 and 4 Commissioners will accept them at their drop off locations.
|Location : Check the Oct. 3 or 10 issue of the Optic-Herald for drop-off locations


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Intel Brings Core Down to 7W, Introduces a New Power Rating to Get There: Y-Series SKUs Demystifiedby Anand Lal Shimpi on 1/14/2013 12:56 AM EST
56 Comments
Back to Article
Mugur - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkIt's wrong whether there is a possibility, however remote, to manage to squeeze the chip to more than 7W and blow any thermal solution calculated for this...
But I wonder if this is actually possible, because of the lowered frequency and voltage. Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkIt seems to me you're trying to cover that epic fail over here ~
I dunno but when it comes to the chipzilla everyone, especially on AT, feels that they(Intel) are so far ahead vis-à-vis the rest of the pack that they might as well stomp over the competition if the antitrust laws would allow'em to do so in the first place aye ? This isn't the case clearly proven by the 32nm SOI Vishera beating i5 at 22nm trigate not to mention the exynos 5x beating anything the Atom has to offer, IIRC the former is half a node back as well, which shows the bias or fanboyism synonymous with the iSheep ! Reply
scottjames_12 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkOn which planet does Vishera beat IVB, especially when it comes to power efficiency? /trollfeeding Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkWho said anything about power efficiency ? Check performance numbers & benchmarks on any of the sites out there including AT, just FYI single threaded performance doesn't count (cause frankly its a sick joke nowadays) as multicore CPU's are supposed to run stuff on more than one core !
/not impressed, shrugs off ! Reply
scottjames_12 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkOh my apologies, I though seeing as the article is mainly concerning TDP's and power efficiency, that your comment might be on topic.. my bad.
It is good to see AMD being competitive with heavily threaded workloads. It's a shame that heavily threaded workloads are still so specialised, explaining why Vishera falls behind in the regular benchmarks which are more relevant to just about everyone. Single threaded performance doesn't count? LOL. Ok... Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI think you're confused here, or maybe that's just me, anyways here is what I said ~
1) AT refuted the fact, rightly so mind you, that Intel won't be getting IVB or Haswell in the 7W power envelope cause that's the best case scenario taking mostly light(er) workloads in mind which really isn't how their usual TDP is measured !
2) The fact is Intel isn't so much ahead of the competition that they can do whatever they'd want to, as most of the AT readers would like to imagine, so incase of ARM they're lagging on the performance front vis-à-vis top of the line Exynos or even Apple's custom made Swift SoC all other things being equal. For AMD they have a full node advantage on the x86 front so really its a no brainer as to why they're more efficient & certainly this Bulldozer architecture has more potential for refinement than the nearly decade old core microarchitecture that has shown signs of aging as proven by the minimal gains of IVB over SNB !
Lastly if you're so concerned about single threaded performance then why not get a "ye olde" celeron & overclock it to ~8Ghz or so for getting more out of those inefficiently coded programs ? I'll reiterate this ~ just because the software front is lagging doesn't mean that AMD is to be held accountable for their deficiencies ! Reply
scottjames_12 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - link1) Um, does it really matter? If the part has a lower heat output that enables usage in thinner and lighter devices (than the U series parts) does it really matter how the rating is calculated? These parts will be able to be used in devices that are designed to dissipate 7W. Sure, you'll be able to make it exceed 7W with a power virus, but I'm sure they will have something along the lines of configurable TDP that would keep the heat under control.
2) Who is saying that they are? Although certainly if you look at market share and shipments, it is easy to draw the conclusion that Intel are the ones to beat. I personally don't care or play favourites. I buy whatever is best when I've got money to spend. And regarding IVB vs SNB, you know that IVB was a tick.. right?
Your last paragraph is pretty childish, really (which is funny, considering your post title). Most people aren't going to buy a processor that is slower 95% of the time, based on the hope that software more suited to it's architecture is 'coming soon'. Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkIVB was a tick indeed(no pun intended) however it failed to deliver the desired performance gains expected by the majority of users(enthusiasts mainly) which sorta points that the headroom is limited in this case for Intel so AMD will indeed close that inevitable gap(fingers crossed) as & when they move onto 22nm or smaller process nodes.
Its hard to say whether you're being serious or sarcastic on that single threaded point ! Anyone who's looking for a better single threaded performer(CPU) against one that can perform better at multithreading is clearly going backwards & I think you that too right ? Reply
scottjames_12 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkUnfortunately for AMD, they seem to always be a step behind Intel when it comes to process nodes. Sucks for them but that is life. Perhaps Piledriver on a 22nm process would be faster than IVB in all areas, but Intel will have Haswell by then, which should see a bigger performance increase than IVB over SNB. Time will tell.
I was definitely serious about the threaded point. Just forget 'single vs multithreading' for a moment. The facts are, IVB is faster than Vishera in most usage cases. And it's not like IVB is bad at heavily threaded workloads - when Vishera wins, it only just wins. On the flip side, when Vishera loses, it tends to lose badly. Only a fool would think that single threaded performance doesn't matter, especially when you consider certain types of workloads can't be multi-threaded. Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI'd say quite alot of consumer level apps are multicore optimized these days also there's only so much an app can do on a single core. If an app is not scaling well on 2 or more cores then you can pretty much bet that there are better alternatives out there, unless its one of a kind, so yes whilst single threaded performance is an important metric in most benchmarks I certainly wouldn't give it no more than a 10% weightage at any given time ! Reply
ImSpartacus - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkWho said anything about performance? You just said that Vishera was "beating" Ivy Bridge. This article is about power efficiency, so Intel completely "beats" AMD in the context of this article.
Stay on topic, Troll. Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkNice way to budge in, with an insult not to mention going completely bonkers for no reason !
The article is about Intel advertising its 10~17W TDP parts with another moniker now "SDP" which quite frankly is a special case scenario akin to certain products running under a given set of conditions ! It has nothing to do with AMD also my reference was in context to something that was explained clearly !
If you're an Intel employee/shareholder then what can I say "learn to read" aye, if not try to respect others & be civil for once at the very least to me ! Reply
ImSpartacus - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkYour thread title is "Seriously grow up !" and I'm the one going bonkers? Troll harder, I'm not mad yet. Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI'm pretty sure that was done to wind up folks like you, guess it worked better than I thought |-: Reply
Wolfpup - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkYou keep talking about what Intel's claiming regarding TDP, which as others have pointed out, is 100% irrelevant as these ARM solutions don't even GIVE a TDP (and if they did, would probably be calculated differently too). Reply
R0H1T - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkMy point of contention was just one i.e. Intel was deliberately trying to sell their stuff emphasizing on that 7W SDP marketing B$
As far as ARM is concerned AT did test the exynos 5x with an estimated 4W SDP, do remember that its an SoC unlike Intel where Broadwell would be the first of its kind, also most ARM SoC's are well within that number. Now the other part of the story is that smartphones/tablets don't need a 300$ chip especially considering the fact that their desktop counterparts aren't running even moderately optimized software that can truly utilize 2 or more cores even after ~10yrs of multicore revolution ! Reply
silverblue - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkOnly per-core, but the performance gap is at times quite severe. Reply
jjj - Monday, January 14, 2013 - link"how far Intel is away from being able to fit Core into an iPad or Nexus 10 style device"
That's not relevant in any way with Intel's prices. A chip that costs 100$ more than the ARM SoC ads 300$ to the ipad's retail price, good luck selling that.
The Tegra comparison is with T3 and that one is somewhat crippled by the memory subsystem. Early 20nm A15 could be half of what Intel will have then in the low clock realm ( by then ARM folks might enable using all 8 cores in bigLITTLE so the math gets more complicated). Second half of 2014 we could see A5x series although i wouldn't bet on it and maybe finFET .But core vs core perf has little relevance, you got die size and plenty of other compute units to factor in.
Intel is stuck with huge margins ,if they give that up with nothing that adds a lot of revenue they wipe out 50B of market cap and that's money lost by someone. We'll see what the new CEO does , i hope he'll be more willing to take risks , Intel is no fun lately. Reply
wsw1982 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkYou should compare product in same category. A15 only has Atom level performance so far, and is beaten by the upcoming ATOM 32nm z2580 with two 5-years-old architecture.(checkout the Antutu benchmark on Lenovo K900, and compare it with Nexus 10, and keep in mind, the z2580 is likely a less than 2w part but Exynos 5 4w part). And if you compare the price of the Atom with the ARM parts, you can see they are quite competitive. The core series could scale it's power consumption down to ARM level doesn't necessary means it's a ARM level processor. You see how they outperform the ARM level atom Reply
ypsylon - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkAt least from my point of view. All fine with low voltage. Would love to build that kind of system myself. Useless because I can't build such system as it is SoC. I'm one of those who will always (or as long as possible with all rumors flying around) buy motherboards, CPUs and stuff. Detest laptops/netbooks/tablets and everything connected with that family in any way. Reply
MonkeyPaw - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkActually, you bring up a point that has been totally overlooked thus far. These are not SOCs, just lower leakage parts and a suspect marketing approach to reach 7W*. Still need to factor in a southbridge. That's more power and more cost. If Intel has its way, tablet prices will either go up $200, or they will start getting the terrible screens that plague notebooks. Reply
fkanker - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkAnand how can you cover Intel on such a thing? SDP is misleading. What is "a typical use"? Will today's typical use be the same in one year? Intel should rate 7W as a TDP without any violation. The same applies to the Exynos 5250 you took as an example to justify the SDP, it just shouldn't be used in a tablet. Reply
wsw1982 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkYet both Samsung and ARM declare the A15 consume less power than A9... Reply
fkanker - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkWell, it is your right to believe... Reply
Klimax - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkWhat belief? Reply
fkanker - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkThat's his right to believe both Samsung and ARM declaration ;) Reply
wsw1982 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI guess you mean "integrity" :P Reply
fkanker - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkIf you want so. But what's your point? Reply
wsw1982 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkMy point is any company bluffing Reply
fkanker - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkAnd because everyone's bluffing it should be covered like Anand is covering Intel's SDP here? Reply
wsw1982 - Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - linkI think SDP is actually a more useful number when you use it to compare to ARM parts. Because as you said, the TABLET from ARM don't use TDP or EVEN SDP, and Intel 's chips here is compete with those chips that mostly only publish their lowest possible power consumption during no-load. And you can only wandering the SDP of it by each individual products, but at least it's measurable for both ARM and X86.
The consumer do need a cross platform consistence comparison matrices, do they?
When I first heard Nvidia comparing tegra 2 with ATOM, they use the lowest power consumption of tegra and TDP of ATOM (2.7w) back then, I was impressed... Reply
Wolfpup - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI'd be surprised if they claimed such a thing, but at a given process node/design that's obviously false. Reply
jwcalla - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkThey probably claim that the A15 is more power-efficient (i.e., GFLOPS / W). The A15 should be significantly more power-efficient than the A9, putting aside the GPU of course. Reply
wsw1982 - Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - linkARM/ARM partners actually measure/publish the best performance during full load, and lowest idle power during no load. They get at least consistence... Reply
MrSpadge - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkCapping power limits hard is inefficient. Look at Intels Turbo mode and how chips are allow to shortly spike above TDP, as long as temperatures and cooling are fine. This improves responsiveness, i.e. how fast a system actually feels. Thermals only enter the equation under sustained loads. Reply
fkanker - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkAnd that's the problem with SDP. Under load, depending on the cooling efficiency, you might end up with a given CPU reference performing differently across different devices.
Under load the base clock might also not be respected, i. e. the CPU will throttle to keep 7W/Tj80C. The performance becomes unpredictable.
Moreover, we don't have any exact information on the way SDP is defined. The considered workloads might as well be heavier in one year, maybe mix more CPU and GPU loads, who knows? Reply
rigel84 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkHi, can someone explain why ARM are so far ahead of Intel and AMD in the tablet and smartphone area? And why don't we see ARM CPUs for the desktop if they use so little power, wouldn't ARM just have to overclock the lot until they hit a TDP of 77 watt like the i3570, and then beat it? Reply
Klimax - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI think they loose efficiency too fast and still too weak performance for devices from 17W and higher. (There's a reason why Intel's engineers don't use too high frequencies, which would be probably required for ARM) Reply
MrSpadge - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkSimple: they are not. By now their newest and greatest, the A15 manages to slightly outperform the old Atom design, at about 2x the power consumption. That's still rather slow for desktops. And "simply overclocking" won't change this significantly: the entire chip is made for moderate power consumption at modest frequencies. Designing for higher frequencies automatically reduces power efficiency, let alone higher voltages to reach higher clock speeds. And using more cores won't help percieved performance, since this is still laregely dominated by single thread performance (that's why Brazos feels much snappier than Atom, despite comparable multi-thread performance). Reply
fkanker - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI would rather say Exynos 5250 instead of "A15". The A15 is just a design that has to be implemented, and can even be modified. The SoC designer must also add its own memory controller, which can lead to big performance differences. Like AMD implementing Ivy Bridge with a memory controller of its own would result in a "slighty" different product than a Core i7.
With the Exynos 5250 I have the feeling that Samsung made a quick and crappy implementation just to have the first A15-based SoC on the market. Its power consumption just doesn't seem logical compared to A9-based SoCs (Tegra 3, OMAP4,...). So I'd rather wait Tegra 4 and Exynos 54xx reviews before concluding on power consumption of the A15-based SoCs. Reply
Kevin G - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkThe main reason why ARM are so far ahead of Intel and AMD in terms of market share in the mobile area is due to ARM's historically low power consumption compared to desktop centric processors and ARM's wide use in the embedded market. Remember that feature phones spawned from the embedded market and smart phones diverged from feature phones. The other factor for ARM's popularity is that they'll license their core designs or the entire architecture.
As to why we don't see ARM in the desktop, much of it has to do with the dominance of Windows and it being x86 focused. Outside of Itanium support in the server world (which Windows 2008R2 was the last), MS hasn't had a version of Windows desktop running on a processor other than an x86 chip for nearly a decade. Windows RT last year changed that and the possibility of a Windows based ARM desktop now exists. However, due to MS vision that Windows RT is to be used in mobile devices, the chances of any manufacturer releasing a Windows RT desktop are slim to none. Of course Windows isn't the only desktop OS as there is Mac OS X and Linux. OS X and iOS are predicted to merge to a common hardware platform. With Apple designing their own ARM based cores, seeing a Mac Mini or MacBook based around an ARM core is more likely but years away. Linux on the desktop using ARM exists but the hardware is more for the DIY hobbyist than a mainstream consumer product. Linux on ARM desktops can happen but ARM manufacturers have to expand their SoC capabilities to really compete. How many ARM SoC's have support for PCI-E 16x for example?
Increasing the core voltage and clocking an ARM core higher is a distinct possibility for increasing performance on the desktop. The problem is that current ARM designs are no geared toward high clock speeds due to their mobile, low power roots. A high performance ARM chip is certainly possible and ARM themselves is seemingly eager to design such a core. As such I'd only expect a Cortex A9 design to scale upward of 2.5 Ghz if given TDP leniency of a desktop. Cortex A15's are a bit more high performance but I'd be surprised if they could get past 3 Ghz. With IPC on the same level of Atom, even with such a clock speed boost their performance compared to desktop Ivy Bridge or Pile Driver would be lack luster. ARM does have a desire to move into the low end server segment so they likely have a real high performance design that'll only be used in desktops/servers in the works. Again, such a design would be several years away. Reply
Wolfpup - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkBecause ARM's focus is on very low end chips, and Intel's has traditionally been on high end chips. It's only recently that ARM's designs have started to get into the realm of...well...comparatively ancient x86 chips, and Intel's started scaling things down to hit lower price points and power usage.
"And why don't we see ARM CPUs for the desktop if they use so little power"
They use little power because they're very low performance. Atom and AMD's equivalents already have that covered in CPUs that are at least as efficient, but of course also compatible. Reply
jemima puddle-duck - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkPrice is all that matters. The only people that care about speed are nerds, and there aren't enough of them to bother with making it. Reply
pSupaNova - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkTrue, especially when the Nexus 10 retails at $399 has a screen with more pixels than a 1080p TV.
Intel can't enter this game with out shaving of huge margins.
When ARM starts putting out 64bit parts say good by to the ultra book segment. Reply
StormyParis - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkHey, TDP is important, and too high. And Intel's 7W SDP is a joke, those guys are lamerz. I've got CPUs with a 3.5W PFOOMADP, sorry, that acronym while truer doesn't ring similar enough to TDP. What TLA ending is DP is still available people ? No, not GDP. Not PDP, sounds musty for some reason. Hey ZDP it is !
My 3.5W ZDP chips beat your 7W SDP, Intel. Eat that !
PR: "Revolutionary low-ZDP CPUs are available right now from ZDP inc,, at a low multiple over old-school TDP CPUs. Low-ZDP CPUs. ZFP is a new thermal dissipation figure, that more truely reflects a CPU's actual real-life workload over a period of time. "
Most of you spend a lot of your day idling and sleeping. So do our CPUs, and they too should get credit for that ! Reply
Wolfpup - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkYou're obsessing over a number Intel gave and ignoring that these parts are more powerful than ARM's stuff, at power levels that either the same or not much worse.
I really don't understand why you and others are obsessing on this, completely missing the actual point. Reply
mikk - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkWhat about this: http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/9/3856050/intel-can...
It is true, i7-3689Y runs at only 800MHz by default? Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI believe that is true for all Core processors. When idle everything will step down to 800MHz, Y-series or not.
Take care,
Anand Reply
mrdude - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkDid they mention how much throttling we're going to get with these chips? It's all fine and dandy to declare something a 7W SDP (with an unknown workload...?) but if getting to that low SDP is going to be achieved by persistent throttling - which is a pretty safe bet - then what's the point?
For example, what about the *SDP* while gaming or other dual load scenarios? Would it be closer to that TDP, thus that SDP would be achieved by hammering down via the C/P-states? In essence, all you'd be paying for is a costlier chip that can't work at advertised speeds for more than a fraction of a second.
The pricing just goes to show just how out of touch Intel is with reality. Their chipset alone costs as much as a modern day ARM SoC. Intel's selling premium performance at skyrocket prices to an audience who doesn't care for it.
Good luck to them. Reply
mikk - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkHmm afaik Idle frequency on the bigger Ivy Bridge CPUs are 1,6 Ghz. Base clock is a different thing. Base clock is applied under load. (it mostly runs with turbo frequency) Intel ark says 1,1+ Ghz base clock for Y-Series. theverge says 800 Mhz. Someone is wrong. Reply
wsw1982 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkMy Lenovo W520 running at 800Mhz when idle/under light loading. And it has a ?2.6GHz q2820 with TDP of 45w Reply
mikk - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkMobile CPUs might have a lower idle state. Maybe theverge mixed up Idle state with base frequency... Reply
Quizzical - Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - linkIn other words, sometimes the chip won't use more than 7 W. If you build a tablet around it that can only dissipate 7 W, then sometimes it won't fry. Sometimes.
Stupid acronyms are just begging for some crank to turn it into a sarcastic backronym. Reply
jamannetje - Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - linkWith these 13W parts being rather expensive ($250) I wonder how low could one go with a standard part, let's say a Intel Core i3-2130, which is a comparable product at half the price. At the same frequencies as the Y-parts and a lowered voltage what would be de TDP? Reply
MarcHFR - Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - link"At the end of the day, 7W SDP Ivy Bridge (and future parts) are good for the industry"
But bad for customers, who will not know the performance of what they buy. Isn't that more important, Anand ? Reply
x86 user - Thursday, May 09, 2013 - linkWe (university outfit) develop a Windows 8 device (prototyped as of now) using an Intel i5u (1.7 GHz @17W Total Power Dissipation) and planning on going into production (India/China Region) with about 100K units a year for our users. The total estimated build cost of this device is around $500/- at the 100K/year volume range.
The battery life on this device is about 8+ hours (with a 6 cell lithium ion). Planning on migrating to a 1.7GHz Haswell Mobile CPU. What would be the expected TDP on this processor, since today the above device (which is a Windows 8 tablet/laptop/docked workstation with a built in GPS, GSM phone & Accelerometer) has a max power consumption of around 25 watts. Reply

subset: commoncrawl


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Originally written on Rumors and Rants | Last updated 11/1/14
Being a boxing fan can be frustrating at times. While a big boxing match is one of the best things in all of sports, fans rarely get to see the matchups they truly dream of watching. Below is our look at the 10 fights boxing fans are begging for. Our criteria for this list is as follows: importance within division, pound-for-pound rankings and boxing as a whole, as well as pure entertainment value. So, without further ado… 10. Adonis Stevenson vs. Sergey Kovalev Kovalev (20-0-1, 19 KOs), my latest restraining order-worthy man crush, is a balls-to-the-wall pressure fighter who isn't bashful about putting power shots together in combinations. The 30-year-old rising prospect faces the toughest test of his career in August against WBO champ Nathan Cleverly. Boasting an 86 percent knockout percentage, Kovalev would relish the opportunity to fight a fellow slugger like Stevenson if he can get past Cleverly, who is more of a pure boxer-puncher. Stevenson's record (21-1, 18 KOs) – at first...
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Oregon State University Marine Mammal Institute Hatfield Marine Science Center 2030 SE Marine Science Drive Newport, Oregon 97365 Phone: (541) 867-0202 Fax: (541) 867-0128 Contact us with your comments and questions.
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Events Calendar
Art Exhibition: Sign Boards of India
Artist's talk Wednesday, Oct. 16 at 7pm.
Followed by reception at the museum until 9pm.
Exhibition runs through Dec. 12.
Donald Fels: What is a Trade?
In 1498 Vasco da Gama sailed from Lisbon, Portugal to Calicut in Southern India in search of pepper and spices for his king. These voyages are often referenced as the beginning of global trade, colonialism in Asia, and what we now call globalization. After visiting in 2003, artist Donald Fels returned in 2004 to Kochi, India where da Gama began and ended his trade with the country.
During his time in India, Fels spent seven months as a Fulbright Senior Research Scholar working with a group of sign painters to create a large series of 'hoardings', enamel on metal billboards. Until extremely recently, cities in India were full of bright hand-painted advertising hoardings. Despite this long-standing tradition, the digital revolution (a force of globalization) brought mass-produced signage to India, and the billboard painters are no longer working. To Fels, employing these craftsmen to paint about the relationship of local and global trade seemed exactly right.
The exhibition, originally organized by the Tacoma Art Museum, features 16 large-scale enamel paintings exploring the many interrelated issues involved in globalization. All of the paintings were researched and designed by Fels and painted by one of the three painters, Surya, Raju or Paul (signpainters established a reputation with a single name). Jiju, originally hired as an interpreter, became the project manager. Based on the sketches provided by Fels, the painters interpreted and embellished the paintings onto large aluminum sheets; as the works progressed they were discussed jointly and modifications were common among the collaborators.
For the past thirty years visual artist Donald Fels has been active on the West Coast, in Europe and Asia. He holds a B.A. from Wesleyan University where he had a triple major in Art, English and History, and an M.A. Ed. with Honors from City University where he was the Board of Governor's Presidential Scholar. He also studied at the San Francisco Art Institute and the University of Washington. Fels has been a Fulbright Fellow to Italy and a Fulbright Senior Research Scholar to India. He has twice received funding from the National Endowment for the Arts.
He is the recipient of many grants, awards and commissions from public and private Foundations and granting agencies including the Washington Council on the Humanities. His work has been exhibited at museums including the Seattle Art Museum, Center on Contemporary Art, Tacoma Art Museum, Bellevue Art Museum, Henry Art Gallery, NW Museum of Art and Culture, Bologna's Contemporary Art Museum, Boston's Institute for Contemporary Art, among others. His work is in numerous international public and private collections.
Visit www.artisthinker.com and www.felsimages.com for more information about the artist.
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Wanted to let you guys know how much I appreciate your help with my kiln issues! I've called Euclid, as many suggested doing-not only on my original thread but on others. I spoke to a guy named Jay and he was great! Was able to help me figure out what kiln model I had, as there is no metal plate/description anywhere on the kiln. He also knew which elements I needed and I got a discount for ordering all 4(hey, every penny helps!).
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Overcoming the Fear of Falling
T.S. Eliot wrote , "All our ignorance brings us closer to death." In your case, your ignorance about fear could kill you because when your head is not right, you make jackass mistakes. A little fear, however, is healthy and keeps you vigilant -- the aim isn't to overcome fear, but to tame it.
Fear is a natural, chemical process stemming from hormonal and neuro-chemical responses in the brain to tangible and realistic dangers. It is a survival, flight-or-fight response. But are you afraid of falling, or afraid of failing? If the latter, you probably think that if you fail, your peers will think you are a wussy or make fun of you when you aren't around. This is true, but you can bolster your self-esteem and subdue fear by realizing that failing does not mean you are a loser, and that to succeed you also have to fail sometimes: G.W. Bush lost the popular election but still became president. It helps to share your fear with a close friend -- but not so close he actually knows who you are.
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OK, that probably won't work for you unless you spend at least five grand spewing to a shrink, and even then you'll never make good with the ladies. What will work is acclimating yourself to the fear. I was terrified of bees until one day I was stung a bunch of times all over my body. Now I am so unafraid I can catch bees in my mouth. To replicate my success, go to a gym, tie in, and take short falls of say three feet. When you are comfortable with that, fall six feet. Then 10. You'll find that while letting go is tough, once you do, a calm will wash over you like an azure Caribbean wave. If in real life out at the crag you are still scared, climb up, clip a few bolts (or set good pro) and jump off. Soothing, isn't it? Next!
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Morphing nForce4 Ultra into nForce4 SLIby Wesley Fink on 1/18/2005 7:30 AM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
85 Comments
Back to Article
HystericPoison - Thursday, October 13, 2005 - linki did the mod last night. it took me 2 tries, because i guess on the newer boards they have a dot of glue over the resistors that i had to scrape off with a knife. a dot of conductive pen (purchased at radio shack for $13 and change) was all it took. Reply
rancidmonkey - Saturday, February 26, 2005 - linkHi,
This is my first post to Anandtech. :) I have ordered a DFI LanParty NF4 Ultra-D from Newegg, and this "SLI-enable" mod is exciting, mostly because of the "budget-minded gamer future upgrade" benefit mentioned by a couple others here. However, what do you all think of possible compatibility issues arising from attempting to pair a 6600GT purchased this month with one purchased 10 or 11 months from now? Could imperceptible changes in the manufacturing process make two seemingly identical cards not work together in SLI mode? I suppose if you really are budget-minded, you could scour ebay for a second-hand card purchased around the same time as yours.
What do you think? Reply
cyburzaki - Thursday, February 24, 2005 - linkplease forgive me if my above comment about PCCaseGear and the bridge was already covered here. I am in a rush and only read the last fourth of posts... Reply
cyburzaki - Thursday, February 24, 2005 - linkDFI sized bridges are definitely being made by at least one third-party, since PCCaseGear in Australia includes with their Ultra-D boards an SLI bridge. But I emailed them and asked them the name of the German company that makes them, and they refused to tell me.
cyburzaki - Thursday, February 24, 2005 - linkReply
LX - Friday, February 11, 2005 - linkWesley (or anyone else, for that matter),
Where can one get the SLI bridge to use with this mod?
Thank you!
ImJacksAmygdala - Monday, January 24, 2005 - linkI bet it is easier to get the SLI bridge for this mod than it is to get an Nforce4 Ultra to try it. Reply
Wesley Fink - Saturday, January 22, 2005 - link#77 - DFI tells us all boards that will reach the retail market will have the modifications we are expecting. There is a new BIOS and several updates of components to improve performance and memory compatability. These changes have been made to production boards and the first boards off the line are also being updated post-production before release to the retail market.
ChineseDemocracyGNR - Saturday, January 22, 2005 - linkBy post-production modifications, do you mean that the first boards to hit the market will not have these improvements?
Wesley Fink - Saturday, January 22, 2005 - linkALL -
As a result of feedback to DFI on the initial testing, DFI is making a few post-production modifications to the board and BIOS to further improve memory compatability and overclocking. There is nothing wrong with current overclocking performance, but we want to bring you a review of the final production board, so we are waiting for the boards with modifiactaions to arrive. Those are expected by the middle of next week. We should have a review of both the DFI boards around the end of next week unless there are further delays.
PrinceGaz - Friday, January 21, 2005 - linkWhat gets me is that SLI is still viewed by so many people as a "cheap upgrade path" for their graphics later on, and they use that to justify and SLI (or possibly a modded Ultra board).
Has everyone who comments here forgotten that there is the option of selling your 6600GT when you fancy an upgrade, and buying a second-hand 6800GT to replace it? I think you'd find the upgrade cost from the 6600GT to 6800GT would be less than a new 6600GT would cost you, regardless of how much prices on new cards fall. The 6800GT will also outperform two 6600GTs in almost all games, especially at higher resolutions and quality settings.
Even if the second-hand price difference between the 6600GT you want to sell, and the 6800GT you'd want to buy isn't smaller than the cost of a new 6600GT; there's still the question of what are you going to do with two outdated 6600GTs when it's time to do a proper upgrade. Single 6600GT cards will be going dirt cheap because they'll be considered low-end, and nobody would buy two of them when much better single card solutions are available. A 6800GT will at least have some reasonable second-hand value still.
The only possible reason for seeing SLI as a viable upgrade option is if you're afraid of buying or selling stuff second-hand. In that case you're missing out on a lot of bargains.
SLI should only be considered by people buying 6800's, either both of them at once or the second within a few months. Considering the cost involved, they'd be fools to save a few dollars and hope the Ultra->SLI mobo hack works correctly for them. Reply
crash - Friday, January 21, 2005 - link#73 and it will all be moot because you won't have the bridge connector. You will either have to make your own or buy one from someone else. Either way, the cost will reach or exceed what you would've spent had you purchased the SLI board in the first place. Reply
AtaStrumf - Friday, January 21, 2005 - linkSome people still don't get the point of SLi. It's in the cheap, gradual upgrade path.
This hack, if nVidia doesn't disable it -- driver support in case of SLi is extremely important - new games will require new drivers!!!, makes this an even better deal for the cheap bastards among us, because you only pay a slight premium for being able to cheaply uprage later on (66(8)00GT will be much cheaper when I buy a second one) instead of having to first cash out big time for an SLi mobo just to get into the SLi game. Reply
MarkM - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link#65, #66 - what is wrong with nVidia marketing different performance levels. Why do you feel you need to single them out for your wrath? Do you think the CD/DVD for Microsoft's OfficePro costs any more to burn than the one for their OfficeStanderd? Do you get mad at AMD preventing you from increasing the multiplier on their A64 chips?
Sheez, it's a common buriness practice, everyone does it. If it let them lower their unit cost by producing both chipsets on the same line instead of needing different ones, then bully for them. Reply
ChineseDemocracyGNR - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link#63, I don't think you will be able to buy the 3D1 card without Gigabyte's SLI motherboard.
I have two comments:
1) in your future benchmarks of SLI products could you add some games that may not have been optimized by nVidia? I don't think most people know about this: http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=99&type=e...
2) Maybe the nForce4 and nForce4-4X can be modded to add SATAII and the other features of the Ultra chipset? Reply
bupkus - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link#69 - My only suggestion is if you see the SLI board price as just too high for the initial introduction, the price drop over the next year will subsidise your next upgrade assuming it will be atleast a year until you go for a new video card. Of course what will be is just a guess. Reply
OriginalReaper - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - linkIt's already $800-1000 on the 2x GPUs, I think spending a little extra for a the nV SLI x8/x8 is worth it over the Ultra SLI.
Not that I'd want either solution at the moment. Reply
bupkus - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - linkConsider also, you can buy an SLI capable display adapter today with a non-SLI motherboard. In a year when you may want to upgrade your video by buying a twin you may also be considering a new, dual core CPU. Reply
Live - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - linkTo all of you who does not see the point of this mod:
The point as I see it is not to buy 2 * 400$ cards and then skimp on the motherboard. This is for the ones who can't afford SLI today. Buy this motherboard and your SLI ready if and when cheaper cards are out or your preferences/financial situation changes.
I'm one of those people that hold on to my parts for at least 2 years. So it's nice to know I have as many options in the future open to me with a board like this.
My bet is that SLI with dual core CPUs and games that are multithreaded and SLI ready from the get go like perhaps Unreal 3 or Far Cry 2 will make SLI look rather tempting.
Imagine playing Duke Nukem Forever which will come ...heh never mind ;) Reply
bupkus - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link#65 - Tell nVidia to "stuff it" and wait for the X800XL. Look people, we all did just fine before SLI and we can do fine without it. Corporations just love it when we are so convinced that we need something they sell that we call them names for taking advantage. Just don't buy into it. Reply
DrDisconnect - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - linkDoes nVidia management have any links with Bausch and Lomb?? They were selling the same exact same contact lenses in two different product channels ie. daily wear and monthly wear. Those who bought daily wear threw out a perfectly good product after a few days, those who bought monthly wear spent a fortune on the same product the daily wear people threw out after a few days.
Selling flawed chips (eg. missing pipelines) as a less powerful product I can understand. But this is just outright customer abuse by nVidia. Reply
HardwareD00d - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - linkMaybe Anand can do an article on how to make a custom SLI bridge ;) Maybe someone could create a flexible bridge that could be like a "universal adapter". Reply
HardwareD00d - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - linkunless you use the 3D1 card, #62 Reply
adnauseam - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link#28, Please note I went to the DFI site again today and they have CHANGED the picture that was there the other day. It no Longer shows a SLI bridge in the photo. see here: http://www.dfi.com.tw/Upload/Product_Picture/Cable...
and here:
Compare with photo from #28 post. I dont see why more people are not addressing this, it makes the mod worthless if you cant get a bridge. Reply
cryptonomicon - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - linkif the new DFI board is anything like the LP nf3 250gb, it will be the best overclocking board for 939, not to mention this incredible sli exploit Reply
Wesley Fink - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link#57,#58,#59 - The single card/dual GPU Gigabyte 3D1 ran in 16X/2X dual video mode on both DFI boards with the jumper setting at "Normal". As stated in the comments and the article, the Gigabyte would not run in x8/x8 (nVidia SLI) with the jumper in SLI because it requires special BIOS hooks for that mode only supplied by the Gigabyte board.
This is not a change from what we described in the review - just more information about alternate modes.
We do agree the single card/dual GPU idea has promise for the future. That is why we tested the 3D1 on the boards and shared results. Even in x16/x2 the 3D1 performance boost compared to a single 6600GT card was significant.
poor Leno - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link@ Wesley:
But if all the tweaking can make the 3D1 to run on "other speeds"/ config (16x/2x and not 8x/8x), it shows that there is some flexibility maybe... is there not a way in this lifetime to run two 3D1's maybe on 4x8????? 2x8 on one bus and 2x8 on the other? Do you think in the future it will be possible to mod to 2x16??, cause in that way the 4x8 will be possible i think (correct me if im wrong) :P Reply
Pete84 - Thursday, January 20, 2005 - link#57 My thought's exactly. I thought that the Gigabyte drivers were specially tweaked so that SLI would be running out of a single x16 slot . . . Reply
johnsonx - Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - linkTo Wesley Fink:
What happened to the Gigabyte 3D1 board requiring special BIOS hooks to POST, which only the one Gigabyte mainboard had? I thought that was mentioned at least twice in your original article on the 3D1.
ksherman - Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - linksince obviosly Anandtech doesnt mind soft moding hardware... why not a SoftQuadro mod for the Video cards? I would really like to see an article about the soft moding of the gaming cards to the workstation graphics. Yes i realise that they will not perform as well as the actual card, I wonder how close... Also, since cards like the 6800GT can be used in SLI, It might be interesting to see a SLI workstation setup... Reply
nitrus - Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - linkwhat wrong with nvidia making a little money. i'd like to see a healthy ati and nvidia so they would make cards cheaper(older models) and better every six months. if we dont support these companies, then imagine a motherboard with no exspansion slots as companies start to intergrate everything. ati/nvidia are starting to branch out into other sectors, and id gladly support them for "cinematic" graphics. i have an an8-sli i bought for 199.99 from ZZF with a 6800gt and 6600gt so i can run 4 lcds. worth every penny... Reply
nitrus - Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - linkReply
Deucer - Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - linkFor those of you who are asking for an application for this mod, I have one. I want to play HL 2 now. I don't have enough money to afford an SLI rig, but I can scrape together enough for a 6600GT and this board. This would be significantly better than what I'm running right now. I want SLI as an upgrade path so when the 6600GT costs as much as the 9600 does now, I can buy another one and get a very affordable boost in proformance. And I'm relatvely sure that I will be able to find an SLI bridge within the next year so that takes care of that issue too.
Of course this doesn't make any sense for someone who is running Dual 6800 Ultras, this is a cost lowering solution, think about what people on a budget are actually buying and how this could help them. Reply
MarkM - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkThank you Wesley for the intriguing article & detective work. It's really neat to have a resource who's not afraid to be your guinea pig and risk frying a very precious commodity right now, an nF4 board :)
#30 - I don't see why A and B are exclusive -- why can't they keep producing and shipping Ultra chips in current architecture while at THE SAME TIME preparing a change to prevent this mod form working & then jus switch to that when it's ready?
#50 LOL, never spent more tha $200 on a single piece of compuer equipment?!?! I can tell that you weren't buying computers in the 80s!! Reply
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkThe graphs have been updated with results from a single Gigabyte 6600 GT and the "dual 6600GT on a single card" Gigabyte 3D1 running in x16/x2 dual video mode. The Gigabyte 3D1 provides the interesting possibility of a form of SLI performance on single x16-slot Ultra boards with the SLI mod.
DigitalDivine - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkI have never spent anything more than $200 for a single computer equipment. And i don't plan to in the future.
Hopefully, Via could get their act together faster and release an sli solution for guys like me on the cheap. Honestly, I bought an Asrock k7v88 at newegg for $50 and it overclocked my 2500+ barton to a 3200+ like a champ, and it was a via kt880 chipset, a very good performance competitor to the nforce2.
i mean i just bought an epox nforce 3 250gb at newegg for $70 for my sempron 3100+ clocked at 2.4ghz, and if an sli solution comes for around $100, i will surely hop on the pci-express boat, and maybe buy an athlon 64. Reply
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link#49 - Corrected. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
ALL - I have some very interesting numbers with the Gigabyte 3D1 dual-GPU in single GPU vs. Dual GPU x16/x2 mode on the DFI. As I said earlier, the 3D1 does not work properly in x8/x8 mode in any SLI board except the Gigabyte, but it does work fine in x16/x8 mode on both the SLI and modded SLI DFI with SLI jumpers in normal (x16/x2) position instead of SLI (x8/x8) position. I am considering adding the numbers to the charts. Reply
Azsen - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkThere is a possible typo you might like to fix?
In the Half Life 2 tests, scroll down to the 3rd set of graphs (1280x1024 4xAA/8xAF).
It has "2 x 6800U x8/x8 (nVidia SLI)" listed twice?
Shouldn't the green bar be labelled: "2 x 6800U x16/x2 (Ultra SLI)" as in all the other graphs?
Great article anyway, cheers. :) Reply
Cygni - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkAhhh, got it Wesley. I was confused by that. Reply
DEMO24 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkNice article! Now to get the review of the DFI up so we can all stop wondering what it performs like :( Reply
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link#40 and #44 -
When the pads are closed on the nF4 Ultra chipset the chipset is then identified as SLI by the system and OS and performs the same as SLI. The x8/x8 is the nVidia defined SLI mode that works after the mod. The board can also - in addition - perform in x16/x2 mode. Reply
icarus4586 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkWhen the Ultra is modded to by closing the resistor pads, can it function in 8x/8x mode? At some points in this review I wasn't sure whether the modification allowed 8x/8x or just 16x/2x. Will 8x/8x work on a modified Ultra motherboard, as long as (like DFI's) it has 2 full length slots? Reply
KristopherKubicki - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkGooger: Wesley is correct. The MSI "DBS" board had an open ended 4 lane slot with a full 16 lane slot. The DFI board runs on two 2 lane slots.
Kristopher Reply
archcommus87 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkDoes even a simple pencil mod like this void any warranty on any board? Reply
Cygni - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkI honestly dont really see the point of the Ultra to SLI conversion. You are now paying an extra $400+ dollars for the second video card for 50% over the performance of one video card... it doesnt make sense. The 8x/8x SLI made the performance for the expendature much more attractive.
The whole process of changing the Ultra to SLI is very cool, however, haha. Personally, I still see the extra $100 for a true SLI as worth it when you are already shelling out $800 for video cards (assuming 6800U's). Reply
Zebo - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkI just don't see the attraction. It's slower obviously and anyone doing sli can afford a non-hacked solution like real live sli.
Right now you can get SLI boards for $200. Thats insignifigant premium compared to two GT's @$500 a each. And especially after this flood of new boards price will come down on the real sli boards.
bob661 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link#16
I said "cheaper" not cheap. Maybe you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills. Reply
Crassus - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkWesley, thank you for following up on my comment. Reply
Googer - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkBy the way SLI offers a poor price to performance ratio, IN some games the performance is 10-15% or less and in others there is none. A single 6800ultra
can beat a 6600 sli setup in MOST games. Reply
Googer - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkWesley are you sure it was MSI that had the x4 slot and an sli mode for the nFORCE4 ultra, because that discriptrion sounds more like DFI than any MSI beta board that I have seen lately. Reply
Klaasman - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkWhat would be sweet is TWO Gigabyte 3D1 for a total of four GPU's. Reply
mclearn - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkWesley,
Are there any visible differences in the DFI Ultra and SLI boards? Maybe the fix for this is as simple as the chipset's "upgrade" Reply
Deucer - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkReply
cnq - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkWesley,
Nice article, and thanks for switching your SLI measurements to 12x10 & 16x12 (I savaged you for including 10x7 in a prev review, which probably no SLI user will both with).
One suggestion for future FarCry runs on SLI: please try with the magnificent eye candy setting "HDR" enabled (new with FC v1.3). It looks great, but is a graphics card crippler -- and thus the **perfect** test for a 2x6800U SLI system.
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkUnfortunately the Gigabyte 3D1 dual-gpu 6600GT does NOT work on the DFI when trhe jumpers are switched to SLI mode. The nVidia driver sees that the system is SLI-capble, but it does not recognize the 2nd GPU as there for SLI. This is true with 66.93, 70.90 and 71.40 drivers. If the Gigabyte single-slot dual-GPU would work with more boards they would sell a lot more of them.
However, the Gigabyte 3D1 in x16/x2 mode performs quite well when jumpers are left in normal mode. After the mod to SLI it works fine with drivers to 70.xx. Reply
crazyeddie - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkIt would be a little late in the game for Nvidia to go back and do a whole lot of reverse engineering to the NF4 SLI chipset to make it less moddable (new word?). Nvidia will:
A) Let the NF4 Ultra out the door as is, eat the lost sales of more profitable SLI chipsets, and take solice that their graphic card sales will be quite brisk. This presumes they can actually ship enough video chips to take advantage of the increased demand.
B) Dry up the current supply of Ultra chipsets and go back to the drawing board to disable them more thoroughly. They will miss out on shipping Ultra chipsets to motherboard manufacturers, which may or may not cause contract problems. It would ensure the continued desirability of the SLI chipset at higher margins, however.
I've personally been hoping for an inexpensive PCI-E board for the 939 Athlon 64 platform that I can pair with a Radeon X800XL solution. This news story jeapordizes the shipment of the NF4 Ultra if Nvidia is determined to protect margins for the sake of overall volume. I guess it's no loss to me, because I couldn't buy an X800XL right now anyway.
I guess we'll have to wait and see whether Nvidia wants to focus on volume or margin-per-unit. Reply
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link#22 - Your idea was so intriguing I had to give it a try. With the DFI UT Ultra modded to SLI, jumpers in normal (non-SLI) position and the Gigabyte 2 gpu 3D1 I was able to run SLI fine with drivers up to 70.xx. This suggests that the Gigabyte Dual 6600GT might run in the single slot of any nF4 Ultra motherboard in a "semi-SLI" mode. That means 2 video cards are potentially NOT required. Modding to SLI woujld enable a wider range of working drivers. More testing needs to be done before reaching any conclusions.
I am getting ready to try the Gigabyte 3D1 now in full SLI (x8/x8) mode to see if that works on the DFI. Reply
ChiefNutz - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link#23, #27 I dunno, when you go to the DFI website, it shows a picture with the link in the box contents on the ultra
http://www.dfi.com.tw/Upload/Product_Picture/Cable... for the box contents, and
for the main product page. It's sitting right there in 3 of the 4 pictures right below the Package listing? What gives? Reply
adnauseam - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkthe one I think everyone is missing is....where do you get a SLI bridge, without purchasing an actual SLI board. Remember the bridges ship with the boards not the cards, because the spacing between the PCIe slots could be different on each maufacturers board. It seems the only way to get one would be to wait until someone who doesnt plan on using it sells one on ebay. unless........there is a way to purchase a replacement....Ill have to check that out actually............. Reply
razor2025 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkThis is awesome find. It gives us more choices. I was planning to buy a NF4 board, so I can use the X800XL I have in pre-order. I didn't want a SLI-ready setup, because the cost is too much. However, if I can get a SLI-capable board (after hack) like the DFI UT for around $130-140, I'll definitely go for them. Most single SLI NF4 boards are fetching around $130-140, and if DFI UT and the Epox board retails for around the same price, everyone who wanted a single SLI NF4 will changed their decision to these awesome boards. Even though I won't be doing SLI anytime soon, I'm sure there will be capable and cheaper cards that can run SLI on these boards down the road. If that doesn't happen, oh well, I still needed a PCI-E board that use Athlon64. Reply
Dmitheon - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkKudos to Wesley and the rest of Anandtech for finding this neat little hack. I wish nVidia simply didn't have the Ultra line of boards, and let the economy of scale bring the SLI board down. I'd love to see the amount of money that went into taking SLI down a notch so they could market a less expensive chipset that costs nearly the same to produce. Personally, I'll end up buying an SLI board as more hit the market and competition brings the price down from it's current $190s (just checked pricewatch.com). Why spend extra? The piece of mind that comes from knowing that nVidia is not trying to take a feature I want, away from me. To paraphrase a hookey old public service announcement: "SLi, it's not a right, it's a privledge" ;) Reply
bersl2 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkI'd rather that more nforce4 boards actually *get* to retail in the first place. Some of us don't want an SLI board (yet)... Reply
Jahara - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkI'm confused. Doesn't the SLI crossover chip only come with SLI enabled motherboards? Reply
Crassus - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkDoes that mean that you could use any Ultra-mainboard with only one PCIe slot and run the Gigabyte 2-chip-6600GT in there with that mod? Reply
Neo_Geo - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkYep, reminds me of the GeForce/Quadro hacking possibilities.
Hopefully, nvidia will just eventually merge the Ultra and SLI into one product.
In the case of the GeForce/Quadro, they came out with some updated drivers to discourage hacking. Then, when that was figured out, they went a little deeper and physically changed the cores. Now, a software hack is not totally possible on GeForce (I say not totally, because the hack does partially work and gives a geforce most quadro features, but not all). Reply
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link#16 -
The DFI LANParty UT (Ultra chipset) will sell for about $140 and it can be modded to SLI. The full DFI SLI-DR will sell for about $200. There are Ultra chipset boards that sell for even less than $140, but we don't know yet if they can work as modded SLI yet - and most don't have dual video slots. There are also some very high end SLI baords that sell in the $250 to $300 range. Reply
PetesEscapade - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkHelps to put something in.....
I love it. Regardless of nVIDIA's motives, or lack thereof, it is great to see people digging, tweaking, and passing the info along to the rest of us to do with what we will.
Why did man climb Mount Everest? Because it's there. Why try to turn a nForce4 Ultra into a nForce4 SLI? Because it's there! Reply
PetesEscapade - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkReply
bupkus - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkOf course ATI is rushing SLI solution video cards for the nForce4 SLI and now Ultra chipsets. My guess would be their drivers will attempt to exploit the Ultra hack, unless legal advises not. nVidia understanding this and seeing their dilemma of more chipsets vs. more video cards will choose both and rush an nForce4 Ultra version 1.1. If not, ATI's SLIs will force nVidia to allow the hack in their drivers. Could an ATI chipset with a cheaper ATI SLI design open the door for ATI's chipsets?
Hehe, lets wait and see. Reply
skunkbuster - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linki wouldn't call $229 cheap. still pretty expensive to me
Fluff - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkPencil trick to make a Quadro 4000 i would like to see!!! Reply
cosmotic - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link(oh wait) Reply
cosmotic - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkNice comment Dranzerk! Reply
Fluff - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkOh come on guys. This sort of thing is nice to know. But would you seriously splash out on 2 graphics cards and scrimp on the motherboard?
Dranzerk - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkOur Take forgot to add...
Getting SLI at anytime counts are you being a moron for spending so much money regardless of a mod that saves you a few bucks. SLI = Worst nvidia ploy ever.
I mean come on nvidia, think up something original than what everyone else has did.
Filibuster - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkThis reminds me of the Promise Ultra100 to Fasttrak100 mod.
"Nvidia.... that greedy money hogging .... trying to milk us customers for all our worth."
Lol...they _are_ a semiconductor company, what did you expext? Last I noticed none of these guys are not for profit agencies...the fun is in outsmarting them (unlock and overclock, unlocking pipelines, turning on sli). Reply
Wesley Fink - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkALL -
We apologize for the posting confusion with this article. It was scheduled to go live this morning, but was accidentally auto-posted around midnight by our document engine. We immediately pulled it down and posted this morning as originally planned. That is why some of the comments have odd times for a 7:30AM post.
We think you will find the information worth waiting for. Reply
PseudoKnight - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkDon't get me wrong. I think this was great investigative work. I just hope it proves fruitful at the retail level. Reply
Jii - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkI knew something like this had to be lurking underneath and here we were again.
It's great to see that there are people who have the time and imagination to start even looking this opportunity and bring this to public.
The only drawback is that now Nvidia knows that we know the thing, that they didn't want us to know, that we now know (you know) ;-).
But seriously: As the modding possibility came to public view, my best guess is that Nvidia will, instead of tweaking their drivers, start modifying the chip structure in a way, that such modifications will become harder to accomplish, completely impossible or will make no difference.
Aquila76 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link>>As you will see in our upcoming reviews, it is also one of the most enthusiast-friendly boards to land on the market since the DFI Socket 754 motherboard.<<
Do you have an ETA for the nForce4 roundup? I have a $3K tax return coming and am building an Uber-AMD64 SLI dual-Ultra rig and want to know which is the best SLI for the buck. Reply
archcommus87 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkSo what can nVidia do to stop this? Can a driver change do it or does something in the hardware need to change?
I wouldn't ever do this myself, as I like having my warranties, but for all the modders, sounds awesome! Reply
PseudoKnight - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkI get the feeling Nvidia will be tweaking their drivers again. =\ Reply
bob661 - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - link#2
They are MUCH cheaper than that now. Zipzoomfly.com has them for $229. I'm getting mine this Wednesday. Reply
knitecrow - Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - linkNvidia.... that greedy money hogging .... trying to milk us customers for all our worth.
An SLI board costs like $300. If I could get SLI on a $100 nforce board, why stop it? it'll only sell more geforce cards.
I hope ATI isn't that bastardly with their cards and chipsets.
Rapsven - Monday, January 17, 2005 - linkAwesome. SLI for cheap.
Though you'll still need an extremely good PSU for it. Reply


text:
The IGP Chronicles Part 2: AMD 780G vs. Intel G45 vs. NVIDIA GeForce 8200by Gary Key on 10/14/2008 12:40 PM EST
- Posted in
- Motherboards
40 Comments
Back to Article
sergev - Monday, January 12, 2009 - linkA fair comparison? Don't think so! A AMD processor with a 140 Watt TDP and a Intel processor with a 95 Watt TDP?? I wonder why the intel chipsets seem more power efficient? If you are testing the performance, ok seems fair, but power efficiency should be measured with two processors with the same TDP. I am convinced that if you did the same test with a AMD 4850E the AMD would beat the crap out the intel versions on power consumption. But yet again, that would not be fair. So keep in mind that this review is not to be taken al to seriously! Reply
axiomhk - Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - linkHi, what amazes me is that it seems no reviewers of the AMD IGP chipsets have caught the serious 2D issues referred to here:
However, the only channel that we consumers / mere mortals have to put pressure on AMD is to send feedback to the Catalyst team. Nothing seems to get done and there is not even any acknowledgement that this issue exists across the HD3200/HD3300 IGPs no matter which manufacturer.
The 3D performance is hyped up and that's all very well when the chipset has shown that it can deliver, but in fact many users will spend a lot of time on 2D activities which truly suck. This makes a lot of users regret their purchase.
What the renowned sites such as anandtech and tomshardware can do is try to reproduce the issues, then use their direct contacts to try to see if this issue is being addressed and update the parent article accordingly. Is it possible? Many thanks. GM - Hong Kong. Reply
Zap - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - link"The keyboard is not available after drive recognition until the Windows startup routine"
Try a different keyboard, or a PS/2 keyboard. I had the same problem with two MSI 750a boards and some Razer USB keyboards. No keyboard until Windows. I had to fix a BIOS problem and had to borrow a keyboard - Logitech G15 USB keyboard worked fine. Reply
arjunp2085 - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkIs this not a bit ODD to Compare a $260 to a Lowly Under performing [B}$173 CPU... Geezs This is Grossly inaccurate
Think about the BOOST to Post Processing and It differs a Whole Lot to the Post processing capability Reply
Strid - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkYeah, it would have made more sense, IMO, to use lower end processors like AMD 4850E or Intel E5200/7200 which is what most people would use in a HTPC.
But if you want to do encoding on your HTPC also, I can see the need for a quad core. But not for your average "movie box". Reply
Staples - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkReally, this thing came out like 6 months ago it seems and finally we get some video benchmarks on anandtech. I know it has been commented that it did not work right for months because the video drivers were terrible but I can not believe it really took that long. When I had to get a HTPC, I just bought an Athlon BE and a 780G board. Much cheaper and adequate. Which in hindsight the P45 may have performed better, an Intel CPU and a Core 2 CPU would have driven the price up quite a bit. Reply
Kreed - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkGary, what are you hinting at with the following statement?
"That leaves the Intel G45. If you are an Intel fan, this is your only real IGP choice... for the next few days at least."
Are you suggesting that Intel might be releasing a new IGP over the Reply
Kreed - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkOops, i didn't get to finish the comment. Here's the comment in full:
Gary, what are you hinting at with the following statement?
"That leaves the Intel G45. If you are an Intel fan, this is your only real IGP choice... for the next few days at least."
Are you suggesting that Intel might be releasing a new IGP over the next few days? Reply
Strid - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkThe NVIDIA MCP7A (GeForce 9300/9400 IGP) boards supposedly launches today. They're sockey 775 boards. I'm pretty sure AnandTech will have a review up soon.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php...">http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php... Reply
steveyballme - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkClearly Nvidia!
http://fakesteveballmer.blogspot.com">http://fakesteveballmer.blogspot.com Reply
GPGPUman - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkAMD 780G and 790GX have 8 stream processors (5-way) for a total of 40 possible ops per clock... NOT 10 Reply
MrMilli - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkIf you multiply it all out that gives Intel a throughput of 8 instructions per clock for G35, 10 for G45, 10 for NVIDIA's GeForce 8200 (where two are transcendental operations) and 40 for AMD. In terms of worst case throughput however, AMD falls down to 8 per clock (assuming the compiler can't feed the hardware 4 shader ops + 1 transcendental per SP) as does NVIDIA. This worst case rarely happens, but it is definitely worth noting.
10 for nvidia => 8 for nvidia
AMD falls down to 8 per clock => to 10 per clock
a1yet - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkwow finally a video playback comparison :-) TY
I have a question one of you may be able to answer ?
In the "Hardware Accelerated Blu-ray Playback Comparison"
(CPU usage) the 780 beat the 790 in 3 of the 6 tests!
With the 790 using up to 9% MORE CPU usage, and in the
other 3 tests. The 790 beat the 780 by only .3% (well within a margin of error)
Up to 9% MORE CPU usage is A LOT!
I want to buy the 790 but this is a disappointment!
Dose anyone know why the 790 uses so much more CPU then the 780.
Is it's HD Acceleration sub-par ?
Heck in the "Crank DB" test all the cards beat the 790.
Please help TY
yknott - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkDo we know if the Radeon HD4xxx cards support output at 1080p/24fps?
I did some googling and can't find anyone who can verify this Reply
Geraldo8022 - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - link"do we know if the Radeon HD4xxx cards support output at 1080p/24fps?"
this is exactly what I want to know also. Reply
Screammit - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkI just received a 4670 today to plug into my old PC that i'm slowly converting into an HTPC. In the display modes 1080p/24 is natively listed, but i'll have to get my blu ray drive in before I can truly verify that it works. Sure seems to have support though. Reply
Calin - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkAn Intel processor and chipset with an AMD discrete card Reply
SkCom - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linktesting amd ddr 2 and intel ddr 3 is not fer test and amd made the 780 790 for usage with cheap cpu SEMPRON so why use phenom and rise the w power when simply can do the chep cpu psu ram and still
watch HD movies surf and dissant gaming price perfom AMD 1 CHAMPION Reply
strikeback03 - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkChecked twice, can't find any punctuation in this post. I have no idea what you are trying to say. Reply
fic2 - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkApparently using a Sempron takes away your ability to punctuate, spell check or make much sense. Reply
Clauzii - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkHe says that by using a Sempron CPU (lower watt than Phenom), it would still be a nice machine for most people, and still be good for movies.
duploxxx - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linknice review, gives a clear ups and downs from each part. there's off course always a reason to recommend an intel part in your conclusion even if you brake it to the ground in the earlier pages....this time you took power consumption, which was one part you would already know from the moment you made your base specs. however for a basic htpc people don't buy quadcores, they buy dual's.
put a 4850e on the plate against e5200 and start all over again, i'am sure you will get a whole other conclusion and 0 reasons to ever buy a s775 platform for htpc in stead you would pick the nvdia/amd offerings with am2 chipset. Reply
npp - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkI suspect the E5200 system would be faster at the end - running at equal clock speeds Core 2 CPUs tend to faster than the old Athlons (at least I think so). I'm not sure what goes for the power consumption, but I really don't understand why one should care about that, anyway. Decent coolers are all around and saving the planet by cutting off some 20-30-50W from your bill is simply ridiculous. As long as we're talking of numbers around the 100W mark, anything goes. Reply
strikeback03 - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkAnandtech has seemed to favor quad-cores for transcoding duties in past HTPC articles. Reply
harshaflibbertigibbet - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkI hope you will also be reviewing the much delayed and finally launched NVIDIA GeForce 9300/9400 chipsets for the Intel platform. In my opinion, they would end up being the best solution for HTPC users. Reply
Badkarma - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkHi Gary,
I read through your article which is very good btw. However, I couldn't find what driver versions you were using to test with. Sorry if I just missed it. Reply
Golgatha - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkI have a HTPC running an Intel E8400 C2D, Zalman 9500 HSF, 6GB RAM, a passively cooled ATI 2600 Pro 256MB, Lite-On SATA Blu-ray/HD DVD combo optical drive, Abit IP35-E, 3 hard drives (250GB and 2x750GB), 380w Earthwatts PS, 4 fans (this includes the PS and CPU fan), and a HT Omega Striker 7.1 discreet sound card. The system runs Vista 64bit Home Premium.
My requirements for a HTPC were for it to be out of sight (tucking it behind the entertainment center and using a Bluetooth Logitech DiNovo Mini works great for me), run cool and quiet, and not use much electricity. Running 2xFolding@Home clients, a Tversity server for my PS3, and playing a Blu-ray movie uses about 115w system power for the entire system (measured with a kill-a-watt brand device).
I think the configurations tested weren't really representative of how folks build their HTPC, unless you're assuming it's a do-it-all type of PC, which isn't really a HTPC at that point IMO?
Why in the world would a dedicated HTPC need a quad core CPU or a 520w PSU? Dual core 45nm parts are more than capable of even the most demanding tasks. Also, a 520w PSU for a 100-150w system is completely inefficient.
Also, barebones motherboards are cheaper than their IGP counterparts by at least $15-$20 (my Abit board was $70 after MIR), which gives a bit of leeway to purchase a $30-$50 dedicated video card that will give a much better end user experience at the end of the day. Also, when something better comes out (hey, I'm interested in AMD's new 4550 etc. series too), you don't have the unnecessary components on the motherboard sucking electricity. Reply
fic2 - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkThat is exactly what I don't understand about the recent "HTPC" articles on here. For some reason they think that people actually use quad monster processors for HTPCs. I got a $25 BE-2400 45W cpu that I intend to use in an HTPC, not some 125W beasty thing that triples my power usage. Reply
androo - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkI totally agree! HTPCs are for the living room and should make little to no noise. 140W CPUs have no place in such a rig. Save that for a gaming rig that goes in the bedroom or den (especially if your wife is a light sleeper!). Reply
tonyintoronto - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkI don't get it either. HTPC in my opinion are to be low power systems, dedicated to movies, music and TV... Doesn't make any sense to me to see 3x and quad cores tested. I use a AMD 4450E and i'm already way "oversized", that processor can play all formats of HD running at 1.1GHZ w/out any issues together with a cheap asus 3450 card. That and the gaming performance, who in they right mind would game with integraded graphics? its like showing to 1/4 mile race with a horse and carriage.
I do agree with them, the 780G and G45 are poor excuses for HTPC boards, IMHO the cheapest possible board with ati 4650 or 4670 makes the most sense. Don't get me started on those 550W power supplies :) Reply
Mathos - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkNo idea why they used quad core, other than the fact that a quad would spend more time in low power mode and have lower CPU usage than a dual. That and there are no AMD dual cores out yet that use HT 3.0, although the x2 6500 should be. Most of the AMD based boards are adversely effected by using an older X2 instead of something that uses HT3.0.
Anyone not seeing the point of a 780g/790gx board, or an nForce 8200/8300 board for an HTPC is not thinking. The point is to not need a discrete card. Many HTPC's use low profile cases, which make finding an adequate video card difficult. Not to mention with the 780g/790gx you can later install a $50 discrete 3650 or 3450 and run it in Xfire with the IGP for better gaming performance. Same goes for the lower end 8000 and 9000 cards on the nforce chipset.
As far as the PSU goes it leaves room for possibly adding in a discrete card later. Also remember that most PSU's are most effecient at around 50% load which happens on some of the AMD systems under heavy load. Not to mention if you want to have a silent PSU you need to keep the load low so the fan isn't humming constantly, which would happen on a lower rated PSU. Reply
tonyintoronto - Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - linkThe issue is the 780G just doesn't work well enough to be used in htpc.. tons of issues with hdcp and different monitors/tv's, still can't decode mpeg2 stream without crashing the display driver, issues with open GL, was a great idea but bad drivers/hardware have done it for me.. now, the 9300 and 9400 looking nice :) Reply
Mathos - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkHmmmmm Actually the power numbers aren't too bad when you take it into context. Q9300 is a 45nm chip, and 9950 is 65nm. Q9300 is 95w TDP rated, but runs much lower actual TDP. While the 9950 is rated 125w TDP. I'd be interested in seeing this test redone once Deneb variants come out. Considering the lesser performance of the Phenom compared to the Penryn, it actually speaks well of both the AMD based chipsets, and shows that the 790GX does a lot to make up for the processor.
I'd say AMD/ATI are doing a good job on the Chipset front now. Reply
Calin - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkAlso, considering we're talking about a $174 versus a $260 processor. I wonder what the results were if the comparation would have been against the quad core Q6600 (at a somewhat similar price of $189). Reply
3DoubleD - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - link"However, they are offering 8-channel LPCM support on the HD 4xxx series of video cards. Of course that option comes with an additional cost and potential problems such as incompatibility with AVR receivers such as those from Yamaha"
Can you elaborate on these problems? I was planning on building an HTPC system and was considering this exact combination. Are these temporary (driver update solvable) problems?
This second question is only distantly related to this article. When using the HDMI with LPCM audio, will sound from sources other than Blu-ray discs (such as games or movies with DD5.1 or DTS) be playable on your stereo? Part of me wants to say yes it will for DTS and DD5.1, but I'm skeptical about video games for some reason. I guess I don't fully understand the extent of the sound card capabilities on these IGP/discrete graphics solutions.
Great article, I'm looking forward to your HTPC graphics card review. Reply
AmdInside - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkI own the Asus M3N-H/HDMI (Geforce 8300) and except for the fact that it doesn't have an eSATA port, I have no complaints (well, maybe the placement of the 24-pin power connector).
I recently purchased the Intel G45 Mini-ITX motherboard to build a second HTPC and although it has worked ok for the most part, BD and HD-DVD playback just doesn't seem as smooth as the Geforce 8300. It is not choppy. It just feels like the framerate is lower. I can't explain why. The same HDTV was used with both systems and they were both set to 1080p/60. Both systems are running Windows Vista. If you are building a new HTPC, I would not recommend Windows XP btw with these platforms. Anyways, I appreciated the article. For me, I was trying to build a somewhat portable HTPC with the Intel mini-ITX motherboard but given the problems I am having with BD and HD-DVD playback, I think I am going to leave it as a Windows Media Center DVR box and use the Geforce 8300 as my main HTPC. For what it's worth, I tested with both WinDVD and Arcsoft TMT. Reply
gipper - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkIt sounds to me like you're really recommending that at this time the way to go is to get a cheap Intel chipset motherboard with the cheapest, lowest power 45nm Core2 Duo, and an ATI 4550.
But what Intel chipset would give that rock solid platform at the lowest price? Reply
tayhimself - Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - linkNeither AMD nor Nvidia can make a decent chipset. Intel seems to have as many misses as they have hits so they're usually a good bet. Boo hiss to poor QC! Reply
Nil Einne - Friday, January 30, 2009 - linkAs with others, I have to say this is a piss poor review. I looked at the Part 1 and came across a resonably decent review. Was expecting the same thing here. But what do I come across? You onmly test two quad cores. What idiot buys a quad core for their HTPC? Unless you're transcoding there's absolutely no reason and given the price of HDs nowadays and the fact that some broadcasters are using AVC for their HD content anyway there's only a few people who are going to bother. Even if you are occasionally transcoding, it's questionable of you really need a quad core or it might be better to just stick with a dual. At the very lest you could have tested quad cores and dual cores like you did with the previous review. But you didn't and so have a fairly useless review for 99% of the population. Why did you even bother with gaming anyway? Seriously, how many people game with quad core IGP systems particularly the kind of games you were testing. And how many of those check out Anandtech reviews? Maybe 5 people in the whole world... You may use a quad core IGP for a high load server or a non-3D workstation but not gaming.
As it stands, based on your previous review (part 1, i.e. the one with the G35) and your comparison between the G35 and G45 I'm guessing that the 8200 is probably still better when paired with a decent CPU for most HTPC purposes but only barely. Sadly it's just a guess for the reasons I outlined above Reply
Nil Einne - Friday, January 30, 2009 - linkWhen I said part 1 I meant the "IGP Power Consumption - 780G, GF8200, and G35", got slightly confused. One of the strangest things about this review of course is the 8200 performed so poorly whereas in that review, it was better then the 780G. Has the 780G improved a lot? Is it just the Gigabute 780G was a POS? Who knows, one would have thought the reviewer would have at least co=mmented on if not investigated this but apparently not Reply


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