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The King is Back: Raja Koduri Leaves Apple, Returns to AMDby Anand Lal Shimpi on 4/19/2013 2:21 PM EST
72 Comments
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Filiprino - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkIf your business losses the best of your human resources, it's a problem. Reply
phillyry - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkIs this another sign that Cook lacks both the vision and leadership / talent attraction and retention that Jobs had?
Will Apple not still need talent like these guys to continue to iterate and further develop Swift and its successors? Reply
phillyry - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkAlso, does this mean that AMD will be more competitive in the mobile (smartphone/tablet) platforms? Reply
marc1000 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkThis is some great news! After the current economic stall there will be a new expansion, as it is always the case. I just hope AMD will be in a better position to explore the new expansion and keep competition in check. We don't want a single CPU or GPU or SOC vendor.
BTW, Qualcomm is winning a lot of mobile design wins this cycle. They could become the next unexpected player over the next few years... Reply
lmcd - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkI don't feel like it's unexpected. I personally thought the time to market advantage for Krait was going to be near-insurmountable, and given how tough A15 was to bring (as it turns out), Qualcomm has it rolling to the point that TI is flat-out gone, Samsung is riding on international sales and tablet sales, and Nvidia has few design wins with the T4. And the core of ATi's mobile has done great work with graphics as of late. Qualcomm's set for success right now. Reply
Ikefu - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkThis is how you start rebuilding a company. Hire the best engineers and pay them what they're worth so you have quality products to start from. Its how Samsung started its resurgence, focusing on quality. Once quality is back in place, then you let the marketing department go to work, but only once they have something good to sell. Reply
zed1 - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkAMD need to replace their marketing department before asking them try and sell anything. The current crew are not interested in real marketing, just padding their mates pockets. Reply
beginner99 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkhope this really helps AMD. I used to think the hype about such people is idiotic because in the end it's the "normal workers", in this case engineers, that do the job and not the managers. However considering how a high ranked manager at my workplace is screwing up everything he possibly can, I reconsidered the terrible effect just 1 single manager can have...and the opposite probably holds true too...even if the workers are the exact same people! Reply
geniusloci - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkHector certainly fucked AMD. Reply
fluxtatic - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkWhoa, do I work with you? This is happening where I work, too, and it's eating the company from the inside out.
This is big news for AMD. While I'm an NVidia sort myself on the graphics side, I have only used AMD CPUs for many, many years. Anything that helps AMD stay afloat is excellent, to my mind. Reply
silverblue - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkMake that three of us in the same position... Reply
ET - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkBad or even mediocre managers can screw up a company quite easily, and they're pretty common, so if a company can find a good one and hold on to him, they should. Reply
axien86 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkAMD builds a powerful Jaguar APU based on a 1.63mm x 1.90mm core size with design wins from Sony and Microsoft for next gen consoles. Major Taiwan ODMs are showcasing AMD Jaguar-based tablets running the latest apps and games at 1920x1080 res and 8-10 hour battery life while Intel designs struggles with games at half-HD resolutions.
AMD with 1/10 the resources, delivered compelling gaming console, tablet and hybrid notebook solutions for the second half of this year. Meanwhile Intel with half empty fabs, has a buggy, bigger Haswell and promises of a better Baytrail Atom "real soon now"... (meaning samples at end of 2013 and shipping well after 2014...)
With this in mind, I think most people would congratulate AMD for what they created and for what is yet to come.
THizzle7XU - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkI really think the fact that they have at least one chip in all three of the next gen consoles is a huge sleeper hit for them. It is really not talked about much other than a side comment. Considering each gen sells more than the previous and the current gen is sitting at around 250 million consoles since 2005, a conservative estimate (Wii U GPU + PS4 CPU + PS4 GPU + 720 CPU + 720 GPU) * 250 million = 1.25 billion AMD chips sold in the next ten years or so. That's crazy. Reply
Mr Perfect - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkI initially thought the same thing, it looks like AMD is ready to cash in no matter who wins the next console round. Do we know what the margins are on console hardware though? My guess is it's pretty low. If the entire console sells for about the same as one normal GPU or CPU, they can't be getting to much. Reply
phillyry - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkThat's because the console OEMs (Sony & MS) take a hit on the first couple million units, until economies of scale kick in, betting long - that they'll make it up in ecosystem (read game) purchases.
Doesn't mean AMD and other parts vendors are super discounting their hardware. They'll just batch price by volume based contracts. Reply
DanNeely - Wednesday, April 24, 2013 - linkAMD more or less won the consoles by default though. nVidia decided the margins weren't high enough to justify pulling people off their other projects. Intel's GPUs are still no-shows for anything beyond casual gaming; and I doubt they'd be overly interested in a low margin market segment either. Reply
Dal Makhani - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkBuggy Haswell? Its perfectly fine. Why do people exaggerate the minor chipset errata? Its not smart of you to start knocking intel like that with their great R&D which contribute to the industry, however i agree that AMD's win in mobile and consoles is great and yes under appreciated/recognized. They needed to shed the resources to become a more focused/efficient company even according to this article which Raja mentioned. It will just be a good day when AMD can again really impress with the desktop CPU, unless thats not on their radar anymore. Reply
silverblue - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkCore 2 had shedloads of bugs, but they still worked round it. The original Phenom had one bug blown totally out of proportion which affected very few home users (and had a workaround - 10% performance drop on Windows, 0% on Linux), so in reality, the only bad things about Phenom were the process and hence the inability to clock it high or keep power under control.
CPUs always launch with bugs and they're generally caught and bypassed. However, I suppose AMD did deserve the flak for Phenom's TLB bug after saying Phenom would bury Core 2... Reply
Dal Makhani - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkyou are correct theres bugs, but often i dont hear of mass recalls or they affect only some, but that is expected. Haswell isnt even out yet, but im assuming the OP was saying haswell is buggy just because of the Z87 chipset USB problem. Intel has said the CPU itself has no major bugs. So i dont see the need to worry so much. Reply
rgw46 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkSorry to pop some bubbles...He was riding on shaky grounds at Apple. Reply
fteoath64 - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkYeah, what has Apple really done with gpu ?. Zero, none zilch!. They still license Imagineering PVR cores and using Nvidia discrete cores for laptops. Producing nothing in gpu area themselves. So who is impressed ?. Reply
Hyper72 - Friday, May 03, 2013 - linkThey effectively devised and executed a strategy involving always putting some of the fastest available graphics into their SoCs. This ultimately benefits the customer. What have they done? They've decided that this was important and ultimately created strong competition and pushed the tablet and smartphone market forwards to our benefit. Who cares if the actual bits are licensed. Reply
BMNify - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkWhy are all these tech companies hiring indians as top executives, can't we get some Americans to do the job? Reply
Amoro - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkWhy are you so racist? Reply
555ccc - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkHe is an American citizen (of Indian origin). Do you rather prefer certain origins/races? Can you enumerate? And what is your own origin if may ask. Reply
BMNify - Monday, January 06, 2014 - linkThere's nothing about origin. But CTO should not have "bed englisch". Reply
Jahara - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkAnandtech is run by an Indian dude too :-) Reply
Donkey2008 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkIt's people like you that make the world think that Americans are stupid Reply
glockjs - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkAMD isn't even an american company...you fawking retard. Reply
lowlymarine - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkErr, not that I am in any way endorsing the appalling comment you're responding to, but:
"Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. (NYSE: AMD) or AMD is an American multinational semiconductor company based in Sunnyvale, California." Reply
Assimilator87 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkglockjs probably meant to say ATi, a Canadian company, since this article's about the graphics division. Reply
anubis44 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkYes, but be that as it may, ATI hasn't existed since 2006, and the ATI name was completely retired in August of 2010. In effect, there is not such thing as ATI and there hasn't been since 2010 at the latest. It's AMD, even the graphics division in Markham, and AMD is headquartered in the United States. Reply
silverblue - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkShame it's not Sunnydale, as that'd explain their horrid luck. Reply
Death666Angel - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - link+1, literally laughing out loud! Good one, mate! :D Reply
tipoo - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkHe is American, maybe this concept is foreign to you but you can be of a different descent and still be American. In fact unless you're native American, that's your case too. Reply
Crazy1 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkBlame the demise of the American education system. In many of the top educated countries, kids go to school 6 or 7 days a week and have no summer breaks. Additionally, under performing teachers are fired, and the education system evolves based on studies of how to best train groups of students. In America, none of this happens in public schools, and some of it happens in private/boarding schools. Reply
Friendly0Fire - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkI'm sorry but quality of education is not measured in the number of school days per year. Quality teachers, good material and curriculum and small classroom sizes are *much* more important than how much you're going to make your students hate school by forcing them to be there for all their waking hours. Reply
lmcd - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkAnd we have the other things you mentioned? There are schools in Thailand or Vietnam, I forget which, teaching their kids algorithms and real math in 5th grade. Sorry, you don't get it. Reply
mr_tawan - Monday, April 22, 2013 - linkI don't think it's in Thailand, never have heard of it (I'm Thai and living in Thailand).
Also our education system is mediocre at best.... Reply
phillyry - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkShould companies be hiring by talent or race?
Bottom line says talent. Isn't that the American way?
Also, aren't all non-Native Americans immigrants?
Thought that was what the country was based on? Reply
honsonic - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkLol anandtech please remove racist comment Reply
angrypat - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkLet's bring the topic home please. Any serious opinions on AMD's chances of a meaningful and competitive future against Intel and Nvidia? Fanboys need not join to this conversation. Reply
Frank Wolfe - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkI have respected ATI/AMD for their amazing hardware capability and Nvidia for their software stack. I wont say Nvidia s hardware is too inferior but they do compensate it well with their software. AMD has failed miserably at that. Having known Raja in person, he is a visionary and I ll closely watch what he does with the APU product line to ensure better performance. AMD has all the ingredients except the software now but Intel lacks in the gfx part while Nvidia does not have x86 license. Reply
BMNify - Monday, January 06, 2014 - linkCould you please clarify which issues do you observe with AMD's "software stack" for graphics products? Reply
epoon2 - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkThe headline reminds me of Vikram Shankar Pandit. Reply
tipoo - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkRaja = King in Hindi, if anyone missed it :P Reply
BMNify - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkhttp://www.bugmenot.com/view/anandtech.com - I was able to log into this account and type this comment. It is possible someone used the same access to post the previous racist/ignorant comment. In any case, it should be deleted. Reply
BMNify - Friday, April 19, 2013 - linkRule #1 - never hire back people who've left you for a better offer. They have shown their true colors. AMD must be really desperate to ignore this basic HR rule and grasping at 'how things once were' with these hires. Reply
anubis44 - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkJim Keller and Raja Koduri probably didn't leave AMD for 'a better offer', they probably left because they didn't see a management team that would move the company in a direction they wanted to go it in their respective fields. AMD's management has been terrible since Jerry Sanders left in 2003. Dirk Meyer, although a brilliant engineer, apparently rubbed a fair number of key employees the wrong way. The fact that Keller has returned as head of CPU development and now Koduri is back as 'Corporate Vice President of Visual Computing' (essentially in charge of the graphics division) is an exceptionally auspicious sign. These two must have seen something in Rory Read's plans for the company that attracted them back to the company. Reply
phillyry - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkGood to see someone with some sense to interpret the situation. Reply
TheJian - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkA one page love fest over a hire after cutting off 30% of the engineers? One or two people won't fix those kinds of layoffs and even in your own words won't mean a thing until 2015-2016 (if they survive that long). Are you planning on analyzing them losing their butts again this Q? They're showing 146mil loss but reality is it was around $310mil if you take out the one-time sale for $164mil of the Austin property.
Regarding the MULTI-GPU driver issues, it only took you a year and 7 months to mention it and I'm sure we won't hear another thing about it until AMD has it fixed. It's no surprise AMD talked to this site ONLY directly and even then didn't discuss the REAL multi-gpu issues...LOL. So basically you wrote 7 pages of CYA direct from AMD. Why not just let them write it for you? Whatever...But still, these are the cards Anandtech has been recommending for basically a year now; runt frames, stutter etc all included for your enjoyment :) Enduro still sucks too says notebookcheck (and others look around some forums):
80 pages of complaining can't be wrong :) That's on just ONE site.
"Although AMD promised optimizations, the improvements were only small. Despite several performance gains and bug fixes, the graphics card never worked completely as it was advertised. Only since Catalyst 12.11 Beta, which brought some innovations, did it begin to function reasonably well, but still not without its problems."
Well, shucks...So still not working YET as advertised. Hmmpf...
"Although Nvidia's Optimus technology still performs better (Optimus is more reliable and features more visual notifications and comfortable functions), Enduro is now fairly useful."
Well, at least its "FAIRLY USEFUL" and functions "REASONABLY WELL" after a year...ROFL. But they still note problems they had previously in FarCry3, Modern Warfare3, F1 2012, Borderlands 2 and Assassin's Creed 3. I guess that's why other than farcry3 these aren't in your gaming suite?
I can't wait to see Ryan's take on Adobe's OpenCL additions while leaving out the comparisons to Cuda in CS6 or Premiere Next (anandtech already ignores Cuda). No doubt he'll fan the OpenCL flames that are barely burning vs. Cuda, while acting like Cuda doesn't exist. Only an idiot buys an NV card and tries to do ANYTHING in OpenCL. You should seek CUDA apps for the same jobs and avoid OpenCL at all costs on NV hardware. I'm not quite sure why AMD was using a Xeon5530 @2.4ghz from 2009 for their tests on a 2013-2014 Adobe product...Fishy at best there? Why wasn't this a 3.5ghz+ I7 or something? Did they use a notebook driver 311.35? I'm thinking NV suddenly works better if using an actual state of the art cpu vs. a 2009 4yr old tech. Amazon recommends a i7-3930K 6 core with 12mb cache to go with the K5000 Quadro they sell, not some chip from Q1'09. Also note AMD hasn't been left in the cold all this time, OpenGL even according to NV's own site says any card that supports it would be accelerated in Adobe CS6:
"However, all OpenGL 2.0 graphics cards including NVIDIA GeForce, NVIDIA Quadro, AMD Radeon and AMD FireGL will accelerate Adobe CS6."
Straight from NV site, even AMD works in opengl already
For a real read of AMD's gpu problems, start reading RYAN SHROUT at pcper instead of Ryan Smith here. All you get from here is a 7page AMD excuse in the form of an article supposedly covering stuttering.
"They're already working on changing how they do frame pacing for multi-GPU setups, and come July we're going to have the chance to see the results of AMD's latest efforts there."
Translation: We'll put this talk off until AMD fixes it, then boast about the hard work they've done (at fixing a problem NV already fixed, hence FCAT). Scott Wasson reported on this stutter etc issue sept2011. So it only took you a little over a year and a half to catch up. WOW. So in July we'll finally get to see what our cards should have been doing all year (MAYBE?)?? Thanks for recommending these works in progress for a year over NV :)
"There are tools in development that meet our criteria for better measuring frame intervals, and hopefully in the not too distant future we'll be able to discuss those tools to a much greater degree, and to use those tools to go about measuring frame intervals in the manner we've always wanted to. But that is a story for another day, so until then you'll have to stay tuned to find out."
Tools are already developed. It's called FCAT, and I'm sure NV would be glad to get one in your hands for something more than that 3 pager you gave without any data a few weeks back. Was FCAT even mentioned in that glorious 7 page AMD CYA stutter excuse article above?...LOL. I wouldn't have to "stay tuned" if you'd have bothered to tell the truth of AMD's drivers situation for the last year (as hardocp, notebookcheck, pcper etc have pointed out) rather than doing AMD CYA all year. Let me know when their products actually work as sold. You gave a 3 pager on FCAT a few weeks back (mar 27th) but it's really more of the same. Delay until AMD gets a working solution rather than discuss the problems directly NOW before they fix it.
I have a lot of love for AMD too, but not when they suck. They look to be on track for yet another Billion dollar loss this FY ($310mil in the bucket already for Q1 if you add the Austin 164mil sale). I'm guessing you'll be ignoring NV profits again this quarter as usual. AMD still owes 240 mil if memory serves to GF (with 200mil due Q1'14, 40mil next Q I think), and the CFO just said they'll be needing loans to survive this year. No real revenue from consoles until next year, no arm until next year, and more free games to lower what little the gpu division makes even today (you can't give 5 games away and expect profits). Ryan Shrout has done probably a dozen articles on FCAT/Runts etc, but this place? I'm baffled by all the AMD love on this site. What we've been seeing for a year is the results of 30% of your engineers exiting in one way or another. Your drivers basically sucked for a year, finally got decent with never settle in Nov (with the included upping of the clocks to ghz - which NV answered with 4 monthly perf drivers since Dec), but you continue to have driver issues today. Now we're waiting AGAIN for july to get a working product? I'm not saying they don't function at all, but clearly they are not functioning as designed. Pcper just did another article on AMD's useless vsync claim they made at GDC13. It doesn't solve the issue and artificially caps your gpu in some instances. So their solution is to tell me to slow down my cards and pray a real driver fix is around the corner? Yeah ok...Just like Enduro, let me know when it works, maybe then you can justify claiming AMD is a good buy. Until then you've basically been selling a load of BS on anandtech.
At some point don't you have to call a spade a spade? How much longer will you try to prop up AMD with dumb benchmarks like Crysis Warhead, SniperV2 and Dirt Showdown? Nobody plays ANY of these games. Literally NOBODY according to a quick server check of warhead (0 players) and Dirt Showdown + Sniper sales don't even register on VGchartz (because you actually have to sell some units to make the chart-you may have just dropped sniper though from testing). Luxmark for compute? Why don't you run CUDA stuff? Fire up Octane or Iray etc for rendering instead of beating the dead horse that is OpenCL. Can't resists statements like this I guess "Moving on to LuxMark, we quite frankly transition into a more normal compute benchmark pattern for NVIDIA, which sees Kepler flopping." from your 650TI Boost article. Your articles all act like a normal person would fire up OpenCL on NV. That's moronic at best, as I'd find the cuda enabled version of whatever to do the same job. Luxmark is just showing a WORST case scenario for an NV card by forcing it to OPenCL when other options exist that are far better. So you can only say your snide remarks because you're acting like users would actually do something so stupid and NOT seek a CUDA app. For a real test, how about using LUXrender in Blender for AMD, and iray or octane in Blender for NV (or choose another, they both support 3dsmax, c4d, maya etc). That would actually prove something; Who really is the best when using their best scenarios that we'd all seek upon buying. I'd rather jump off a bridge before using OpenCL on NV cards...LOL. Still doing folding@home? Only 165,000 people even have this installed on their machines (350mil pcs sold each year). NOBODY CARES about folding@home. You openCL us to death, without a word about Cuda in every NV article. You should be testing the crap out of cuda vs. an equivalent app for AMD with OpenCL/OpenGL. You keep testing junk nobody uses to make money and saying NV sucks at compute. Total lies. They have CUDA in nearly every pro app for this. If RAYTRACING has become so important, why are you NOT USING CUDA for NV to do it? You are hiding the truth at best, or LYING at worst.
"Wrapping things up, we will be following up this article next week with part 2 in our look at FCAT. "
That was March 27 here...Still waiting for part2 nearly a month later...Keep kissing that AMD butt guys :) Just put it off until July, it's all good. Maybe you guys can help them make a profit finally ;) Reply
silverblue - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkSometimes, all it takes to shake things up is hiring a good manager, somebody with drive and the right priorities.
Both Intel and AMD are promoting OpenCL; shouldn't NV try to join the party? I agree that there are viable alternatives but they're usually vendor specific. I think it'd be wrong to assume that AT doesn't run tests using either of those or that neither of them would be valid in any use case. The ideal situation would be to see how different methods work out, time permitting. However, if you don't get that here, you can always check another review to bolster your opinion as to how a specific card or architecture works at a designated task. If I was to make a purchase, that's certainly what my approach would be.
Regarding the FCAT issue... FRAPS was a good indicator but never quite accurate enough to point out exactly what was wrong where. FCAT has only really just arrived on the scene; that follow-up article can't come soon enough.
AMD have set a target of July for significant improvements. I'm not sure there's a lot of point in trying to see improvements until then, however do bear in mind that latency issues are far better than previously for single card users.
You make some very good points, however I'm not sure AT are working a second job as AMD apologists. Reply
Will Robinson - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkIs that you Rollo? Reply
WaltC - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - link"Whether or not the past several high profile hires are enough to save AMD is something we won't know for sure until 2015/2016."
Ah, yes--you can't be a tech pundit these days unless you have something smarmy and snide to say about AMD. I thinking knocking AMD is the mark of the half-literate tech pundit who is in over his head but desperately trying not to show it. Evidently, the people AMD is hiring feel the company has a definite future--and, obviously, one that goes far beyond 2015.
As has been noted, most of ill-informed, opinionated tech punditry is loathe to mention AMD's recent console wins except grudgingly, if at all. AMD will survive and prove them wrong once again, to their utter frustration, and it's always gratifying to see the pundits eating crow. Eating crow once again, I should say, for this is surely not an isolated occurrence...;) Reply
HisDivineOrder - Saturday, April 20, 2013 - linkI find this article's hero worship (or bromance?) to be a little off-putting. Leaders are important, but when AMD just excised huge portions of its staff, including a lot of its R&D, I think there's a real question of how much talent they still have left and how much of it is quality talent that deserves the big bucks.
I can't help feeling like AMD is hiring these big names to lead their divisions so they can PR spin their talent as better than it actually is. If you had the choice between no-name leaders who are good leaders plus lots and lots of talented engineers or a known name leader and very few engineers of indeterminate quality, which would you choose and why?
If you wanted great products, you'd go for the best combination of engineers, even if they were led by someone who didn't have the reputation for being a big idea guy. If you wanted to convince OTHERS you were fine and everything is great, you'd spend less and still have the big guy to sell the spin you're okay.
Looking at AMD's moves in the broader sense, it seems they're doing a lot of things that have short term spin effects (focus on fixing drivers/bundles rather than launch a refreshed GPU series, release Richland APU's instead of pushing on to Steamroller-based parts, hire two big hitmakers of old to smokescreen the loss of all the talent they've fired over the last year) rather than doing anything much in the mid-term or long term. These guys will have an effect if they can make it to the longest term.
If they can make it. At the rate they're losing cash even in quarters where they aren't even bothering to release new products despite the ones they're selling being long in the tooth, I think they're in real trouble and may not make it that far.
If that's the case, then having these guys come in for some big paychecks until AMD sets themselves up for a capital infusion, a merger, or buyout would make a lot of sense. Later, they can quietly announce these guys have moved on once they get through this rough patch and the positive PR only cost them a couple guy's big paychecks.
That seems much more realistic to me than the idea that one man or two men are going to show up and just magically turn AMD from the Titanic into the TARDIS. Reply
Paulman - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkI can't help but think at least one of the reasons for the unbridled optimism is that "we" (as in the computing sector) need AMD to do well so that they don't go bankrupt and leave Intel with no competition. Otherwise, it's an Intel monopoly which is probably not the best for the consumer and arguably not the best for Intel, as well (because the US government may get more interventional in the interests of anti-trust/monopoly concerns).
A healthy AMD is good for all the other markets they compete in, as well (graphics, smartphone/tablet). Reply
lmcd - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkI'd disagree, it'd leave it with a desktop monopoly, but what about ARM? The A15-based Chromebook is a good basic platform for computers, and IBM + PPC is good for workstation and server as I understand. The unserved market here is then only gaming and high-end personal computer users, which hopefully ARM's next cores will move towards addressing. Reply
FearfulSPARTAN - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkI highly doubt even arm 64 bit processors will come close to intels and even then thats still one whole sector with one cpu company in control of pricing Reply
zed1 - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkIf AMD don't get behind open source multimedia they are not going to progress. Maybe you should ask Raja why AMD are completely unprepared to back open source multimedia solutions and rather spend their rapidly diminishing resources on proprietary competitive solutions using third party companies run by their mates... Reply
lmcd - Sunday, April 21, 2013 - linkUhh, they just released VDPAU support for their FOSS drivers for all but UVD 1 cards.
Try again. Reply
Shadowmaster625 - Wednesday, April 24, 2013 - linkGuy has all the hallmarks of a corporate spy. Wants to create a movie studio on the side? Come on... The guy will probably be in the office twice a week, just long enough to assemble a dossier for whatever variety of fruit company he really works for... Reply
cpupro - Wednesday, April 24, 2013 - linkAMD should hire someone as Will.i.am from Black Eyed Peas as Intel did. Reply
gamoniac - Thursday, April 25, 2013 - linkI see what you did here, Anand. Raja = King :) Reply
chrnochime - Thursday, April 25, 2013 - linkPlease just make the CCC less clunky and error-prone. To this day I still cannot fix the disappearing OC tab. Is it really that hard to design a GUI for GPU driver settings that matches Nvidia's in terms of usability and reliability?? Reply
7beauties - Saturday, April 27, 2013 - linkThe December 2005 issue of Maximum PC was the last time they featured an AMD CPU as the top chip in their Gear of the Year roundup. That's a long time ago. Then AMD layed an egg with the Phenom and its infamous TLB bug. How you name and market a product matters as "R/T" with Dodge Challengers or "GTX" with Pontiacs meant you were buying muscle, but Phenom, with artwork suggesting a rocket blasting off, was nothing more than a spoiler and mag wheels are to a six cylinder car; misleading. The Phenom wasn't phenomenal, and it embarrassed me. Then Bulldozer, again suggesting power, was misleading. It was painful to read Maximum PC say that the Bulldozer was as fast as a bulldozer next to a NASCAR (Intel Core i7). AMD was a Macaque thumping its chest next to Intel's Silver Back Gorilla. Embarrassing. This news is welcome and I hope it heralds AMD's sincere intention to reenter the ring for supremacy. Reply
Parablooper - Monday, April 29, 2013 - linkAwesome to hear. Can't wait to see what AMD can produce with these geniuses back on staff. Reply
LemmingOverlord - Monday, May 06, 2013 - linkOK, don't think anyone said it, but I'm sure someone got it.
"It's good to be the Raja" Reply
MelodyRamos47 - Sunday, May 12, 2013 - linkAnthony. even though Susan`s blog is neat, on friday I bought a great Lotus Elise from earning $9314 this - four weeks past and just over 10-k last month. without a doubt its the most-financialy rewarding I've ever done. I started this five months/ago and pretty much straight away started making a nice more than $81 per hour. I work through this link, Bow6.comTAKE A LOOK Reply
Majeh - Friday, May 31, 2013 - link+ 10 AMD Reply
Majeh - Friday, May 31, 2013 - link"For the first time in recent history, both GPU hardware and software are falling under the same man" \ Finally! :D Reply
VasuM - Saturday, October 18, 2014 - linkRajanna, All the Best & Wish you a great success.
Vasu Subrahmanyam.M,
Sindhanur / Amareshwarcamp.
email@example.com Reply


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This is a small archive of selected faculty research intended to provide a sampling of the fascinating endeavors in which our faculty are engaged. For a full publications list of a given faculty member, please find him or her in our faculty directory and click "Publications," or view our entire faculty's scholarship in Chicago Unbound.
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Huguenot Bridge beam installations begin tonight
Citizen Staff Reports 08/20/12
Starting tonight, construction crews will begin installing beams for the second half of the new Huguenot Memorial Bridge over the James River. The beam installations will take place between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. Monday through Friday through Sept. 7, weather permitting. There will be no beam installations on Labor Day.
For driver safety, traffic will be stopped periodically for up to 45 minutes each night as cranes lift 80,000 pound steel beams over the bridge and secure them into place on the new bridge. Huguenot Bridge traffic will resume between beam installations.
To avoid delays during the beam installations, VDOT recommends Huguenot Road (Route 147) drivers use the following alternate routes:
"The contractor is installing these heavy beams from the temporary causeway on the west side of the bridge in order to reduce the weight over a critical water main on the east side of the bridge," said Harold Dyson, district construction manager. "Crews will secure the beams as quickly as possible to limit driver delays each night." The contractor expects to install 22 beams through Sept. 7 and another 22 beams in October (schedule to be announced).
Efforts to build a new bridge to replace the 62-year old Huguenot Memorial Bridge began in October 2010. Traffic was shifted to the first half of the new bridge on June 30. Demolition of the old bridge is underway. The second half of the new bridge is expected to be completed and open to drivers in summer 2013. The $54.5 million project is currently on schedule for final completion in October 2013.
For more information about the Huguenot Bridge project, visit http://www.huguenotbridge.org.
Nonprofit awards $38k in book scholarships
Citizen Staff Reports 08/20/2017 General NewsNon-Profits
The KLM Scholarship Foundation awarded more than $38,000 in book scholarships to 36 students during its 2017 Book Scholarship Awards Ceremony at Linwood Holton Elementary School in Richmond Aug. 5. The students will attend 14 Virginia colleges in the fall. Each has excelled academically, maintaining a 3.0 GPA or better, while demonstrating strong community leadership qualities.
WWBT/NBC12 Raycom Media Vice President and General Manager Kym Grinnage was the guest speaker. > Read more.
Dave Peppler, pastor
By Ashley Luck, Special to the Citizen 08/20/2017 General NewsReligion
Dave Peppler, pastor of Chamberlayne Baptist Church, remembers the epiphany he had on a cold afternoon in northern Ohio when God gave him a sense of direction, after he had been wondering what life had in store for him. It was then that he knew that he wanted to become a pastor and serve God.
Peppler, a Delaware native who grew up in Ohio, was ordained in Brownsboro, Ky. in 1998, but his education didn't end there. > Read more.
International goals
Citizen Staff Reports 08/18/2017 FeaturesGeneral News
A group of youth soccer players – most from Henrico – and local soccer coaches spent a week in Kazakhstan this month as part of a VCU Center for Sport Leadership program.
The group's trip to Astana, Kazakhstan was made possible by a $700,000 grant awarded to CSL Executive Director Carrie LeCrom by the U.S. Department of State's Bureau of Education and Cultural Affairs through its Sports Diplomacy Division. > Read more.
Henrico promotional company changes name
Citizen Staff Reports 08/18/2017 BusinessGeneral News
Henrico-based brand merchandising company NewClients, Inc. has changed its name to Boost Promotional Branding.
The company is one of the nation's largest in the branded merchandise industry. Founded in 1981, its serves more than 5,000 clients – including many Fortune 500 companies – nationwide. > Read more.
Lidl competition offers shoppers chance to win NYC trip
Citizen Staff Reports 08/18/2017 BusinessGeneral News
Three Lidl shoppers will win trips to New York City to receive a first-look at the Esmara by Heidi Klum collection and attend an international runway event debuting the collection. The contest is open to residents of Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina – the three states in which Lidl currently operates grocery stores. The chain opened two stores in Henrico County last month. > Read more.
Lidl competition offers shoppers chance to win NYC trip
Glen Allen advances in 14U Babe Ruth World Series
Earnhardt gives Redskins a ride
READ Center a finalist for $25k grant
Henrico County property transactions, Aug. 1-6
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Obituary - Dorothy M. Wade
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CalendarRichmond-based country band Double Clutch will perform from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. at The Lilly Pad Café, 9680 Osborne Tnpk. in Varina. For details, call 507-1997. Full text


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Philip Seymour Hoffman was found dead in his New York apartment on Sunday morning of an apparent drug overdose. He was found in his West Village apartment around 11:30 a.m. by a friend who had become concerned at not being able to reach Mr. Hoffman.
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Spending policy defines the size and fluctuation of the annual distribution from the pooled endowment that supports the university's operations and essential donor-specified functions. The goal of spending policy is to provide a consistent annual stream of distributions that keeps pace with academic inflation, while preserving a balance between support for today's students and support for future generations.
Distributions from pooled endowments to support donors' purposes are reviewed and may be reset annually, guided by the spending policy established by the Investment Committee of the Board of Trustees. These decisions are guided by the statutory requirements of UPMIFA (the Uniform Prudent Management of Institutional Funds Act, Ohio Revised Code sections 1715.51-1715.59).
The Investment Committee annually prepares a spending recommendation for the Finance Committee that is incorporated into the budget approval process. The Investment Committee strives to achieve an annual spending rate of between 4 percent and 6 percent of beginning market value consistent with expected growth of market value (from investment appreciation and new gifts) and the financial needs of the university.
The current spending policy is a hybrid with a "constant spending" component and a "market value" component.
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See the graph below that illustrates the endowment contribution to university operating income.


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WD Red Pro Review: 4 TB Drives for NAS Systems Benchmarkedby Ganesh T S on 8/8/2014 9:00 AM EST
62 Comments
Back to Article
willis936 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkThank you for the overview of ATA protocol features on page 3. Resources like that are hard to find without spending hours digging through a spec. Reply
Anonymous Blowhard - Friday, August 08, 2014 - link"Enterprise" or not, running RAID5 on 4TB drives with a 10^14 URE is asking for trouble. Reply
Guspaz - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkOnly when rebuilding. The chances of getting a read error on two disks at the same time on the same piece of data is extremely remote. Of course, when rebuilding, you only need the error on one disk... which is why I'm running raidz2 :) Reply
rufuselder - Thursday, October 09, 2014 - linkI'd say WD AV-GP 2 TB AV is the best choice (supported by for example http://www.consumertop.com/best-computer-storage-g... ). I'm not a big fan of raidz2, sorry. Reply
NonSequitor - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkThis came up on the last article about these drives as well. Currently I'm running six 3TB Reds in a RAID-6. Over the last year they've rebuilt once a month. I have Linux set to log any errors, and it's never logged a single block error. With the double parity, it seems like it would have logged one by now if the actual URE were that high on a per-bit basis. This unit was a replacement for a unit using nine drives, which did have two drive failures in three years, but both failures were announced by SMART before any actual failure occurred. The SANs at work do scrubs once a week, and kick out about 2% of drives a year. It really seems like reality is better than the specifications in this case. Reply
jaden24 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkWhy are they rebuilding once a month? Reply
NonSequitor - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkI have it set that way to spot a failing drive before it actually needs to be rebuilt. It's an orderly rebuild, checkarray, like this: http://www.thomas-krenn.com/en/wiki/Mdadm_checkarr...
In the past it has been useful as it has caused drives to throw a SMART error for reallocates during the process (with some 1TB drives) allowing me to replace them proactively. Reply
jaden24 - Saturday, August 09, 2014 - linkInteresting. I had never heard of the practice before. Only consistent scrubbing, SMART configured, and extended burn-ins prior to use. Reply
imaheadcase - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkGanesh, could you get a response from Synology/asus/Qnap/etc as to why they don't have NAS with better CPU/RAM? Those products are nice, but many people wish to have them with more CPU/ram for media streaming. I find it very odd than none of the major players don't contribute to this market.
Why no 3ghz CPU and 16gig systems? It can't be cost since the ones that can be upgraded ram wise are cheap upgrades.
Out of the current popular NAS, only 2 support Transcoding, and multiple 1080p streams. But they have terrible software. Reply
Gigaplex - Monday, August 11, 2014 - linkYou don't need a 3GHz CPU, 16GB RAM NAS to support media streaming. Reply
sin_tax - Thursday, August 21, 2014 - linkTranscoding != streaming. Most all NAS boxes are underpowered when it comes to transcoding. Reply
jaden24 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkCorrection.
WD Red Pro: Non-Recoverable Read Errors / Bits Read 10^15 Reply
Per Hansson - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkI'm not qualified to say for certain, but I think it's just marketing
bullshit to make the numbers look better when infact they are the same?
Non-Recoverable Read Errors per Bits Read:
<1 in 10^14 WD Red
<10 in 10^15 WD Red Pro
<10 in 10^15 WD Se
Just for reference the Seagate Constellation ES.3, Hitachi Ultrastar He6 &
7K4000 are all rated for: 1 in 10^15 Reply
shodanshok - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkHi, watch at the specs carefully: WD claim <10 errors for 10^15 bytes read.
Previously, it was <1 each 10^14.
In other word, they increase the exponent (14 vs 15), but the value is (more or less) the same! Reply
jaden24 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkNice catch. I just went and looked up all of them.
RE = 10 in 10^16
Red Pro = 10 in 10^15
SE = 10 in 10^15
Black = 1 in 10^14
Red = 1 in 10^14
Green = 1 in 10^14
It looks like they switched to this marketing on RE and SE. The terms are in black and white, but it is a deviation from a measurement scheme, and can only be construed as deceiving in my book. I love WD, but this pisses me off. Reply
isa - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkFor my home/home office use, the most important aspect by far for me is reliability/failure rates, mainly because I don't want to invest in more than 2 drives or go beyond Raid 1. I realize the most robust reliability info is based on several years of statistics in the field, but is their any kind of accelerated life test that Anandtech can do or get access to that has been proven to be a fairly reliable indicator of reliability/failure rates differences across the models? I'm aware of the manufacturer specs, but I don't regard those as objective or measured apples-apples across manufacturers.
If historical reliability data is fairly consistent across multiple drives across a manufacturers' line, perhaps at least provide that as a proxy for predicted actual reliability. Thanks for considering any of this! Reply
NonSequitor - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkIf you're really concerned about reliability, you need double-parity rather than RAID-1. In a double parity situation the system knows which drive is returning bad data. With RAID-1 is doesn't know which drive is right. Of course either way you should have a robust backup infrastructure in place if your data matters. Reply
shodanshok - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkMmm... it depends.
If you speak about silent data corruption (ie: read error that aren't detected by the build in ECC), RAIDZ2 and _some_ RAID6 implementation should be able to isolate the wrond data. However this require that for every read both parity data (P and Q) are re-calculated, hammering the disk subsystem and the controller's CPU. RAIDZ2, by design, do this precise thing (N disks in a single RAIDZ array give you the same IOPS that a single disk), but many RAID6 implementation simply don't do that for performance reason (Linux MDRAID, for example, don't to it).
If you are referring to UREs, even a single parity scheme as RAID5 is sufficient for non-degraded conditions. The true problem is for the degraded scenario: in this case and on most hardware RAID implementation, a single URE error will kill your entire array (note: MDRAID behave differently and let you to recover _even_ from this scenario, albeit with some corrupted data and in different manner based on its version). In this case, a double parity scheme is a big advantage.
On the other hand, while mirroring is not 100% free from URE risk, it need to re-read the content of a _single_ disk, not the entire array. In other word, it is less exposed to URE problem then RAID5 simply because it has to read less data to recover from a failure (but with current capacities RAID6 is even less exposed to this kind of error).
Regards. Reply
NonSequitor - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkMDRAID will recheck all of the parity during a scrub. That's really enough to catch silent data corruption before your backups go stale. It's not perfect but is a good balance between safety and performance. The problem with RAID5 compared to RAID6 is that in a URE situation the RAID5 will still silently produce garbage as it has no way to know if the data is correct. RAID6 is at least capable of spotting those read errors. Reply
shodanshok - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkI think you are confusing URE with silent dats corruption. An URE in non-degraded RAID 5 will not produce any data corruption, it will simply trigger a stripe reconstruction.
An URE in degraded RAID 5 will not produce any data corruption, but it will result in a "dead" or faulty array.
A regular scrub will prevents unexpected UREs, but if a drive suddenly become returning garbage, even regular scrubs can not do anything.
In theory, RAID6 can identify what drive is returning garbage because it has two different parity data. However, as stated above, that kind of control is avoided due to the severe performance penalties it implies.
RAIDZ2 take the safe path and do a complete control for every read, but as results its performance is quite low.
Regards. Reply
NonSequitor - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkMost of the storage stuff I work with is bigger than the one Linux box, so I haven't dug deeply in to the exact details of that implementation. I do know I was bit in the past by a RAID5 with a bad disk in it turning the entire thing to trash. Thankfully some experimentation was able to determine which disk was actually returning garbage.
However I have not seen the stripe reconstruction count going up during monthly scrubs, so what I'm saying is that my experience is that actual URE counts are lower than the spec. The spec may be a worst case or something else like that. Reply
isa - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkUmm, Raid 5 and 6 require a minimum of 3 discs, so no thanks. And yes, I'm aware that any form of Raid does not eliminate the need for a backup - all the more reason for finding out the best (most reliable at reasonable cost) disc for a 2 disc Raid 1 config - no way will I spend all of my budget on a Raid 5 or 6 and be forced to abandon a backup. Reply
Peroxyde - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkHi,
I have a 4TB non-NAS SATA drive (Seagate ST4000DM000). Is it OK to pair it with a 4TB NAS SATA drive in RAID1 in a home made NAS server? Reply
jaden24 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkWhile RAID1 is safe, I wouldn't advise it. The ST4000DM000 wasn't designed for RAID mode. I would just use FreeFileSync to automatically replicate the data from the ST4000DM000 to the NAS drive. This is what I do for my home NAS when using desktop drives.
It will give you peace of mind with your data, and I doubt you will be able to tax the single drive enough with streaming unless you are simultaneously doing large file transfers, but you could do those during non-critical hours to avoid stuttering. Reply
Peroxyde - Saturday, August 09, 2014 - linkHi Jaden24,
Thank you for your advice. This is an interesting idea to sync the 2 drives asynchronously. Reply
jaden24 - Monday, August 11, 2014 - linkNo problem. Reply
shodanshok - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkInteresting article :)
It seems that Western Digital has some internal competition, as the Red Pro pretty much overlaps the WD Se series. Even the WD datasheets show very similar features (UREs above all) and, to tell the truth, the WD Red Pro is rated for much more load/unload cycles (300K vs 600K).
I think that we will see a WD Se refresh within some months... Reply
SirGCal - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkI currently have two 8-drive Seagate 4TB drives (5900 RPM, first one that was publicly available) arrays in RAID6 and one in RAIDZ2 (same thing without the expensive raid card). I have no regrets. Had one drive fail and rebuilt the array in just a few hours. Performance is plenty for my home network and can saturate a dual 1G network setup easily. I do wish I had more drives at the time to choose from but if I was to do it now, 8TB!!! or maybe 6... I never have enough storage. Reply
bji - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkCan you explain what you do with all of that storage?
On the other end of the spectrum, I have never used more than about 200 GB of any home computer. Unless you're producing huge quantities of your own content (recording HD video constantly or something), it's very hard to fill more persistent storage because each byte of stored data typically costs money (i.e. movie files, program files, music files, etc - usually these all cost money, so filling up large amounts of storage with them must mean spending large amounts of money).
So how exactly do you fill up 32 TB of storage? Reply
piroroadkill - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkIf you pirate a lot, and keep full bluray images, or indeed rip full bluray images, or similar, AND you back it up, then that would be possible to blow through. Reply
jabber - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkSo actually nothing important. When I see these NAS/Storage articles I just can't help with a lot of eye-rolling at what folks write. Folks spending large amounts of effort and money on data that is of little value to anyone or anything.
I best most here would actually get by with a 2TB external USB3 HDD.if they were honest. Oh and that includes the business they work for. Reply
jaden24 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkWell, what you are calling unimportant is a very subjective statement. To me, spending large amounts of time, effort and money is extremely worth it. Also, much of it has paid off over time since I have properly implemented good practices. This has allowed me to share a library of movies, tv shows and music with my family in 5 different rooms via XBMC because it is all centrally located.
Having done all of that work to offer this content would be a total waste if I didn't take proper measures to ensure it is backed up. Surely, it wouldn't be smart to let an array fail and have to re-encode and format all of that data all over again; now that would take a lot of wasted time and effort.
Besides, a 2TB external HDD would have to be USB3 (possibly with UASP) and hooked to a USB3 controller to achieve decent, multiple streams, but it wouldn't have redundancy. Also, 2TB is only going to hold so many movies. What if you like 400-480p movies, but I prefer 720-1080p movies? All of this comes down to preference, and this alone is what determines each of our own setups to suit our tastes. Reply
sapius1 - Friday, September 26, 2014 - linkI am a professional photographer and generate about 1TB/year of original content (growing each year). I absolutely need more than a 2TB external HDD. Reply
m2inor - Saturday, August 09, 2014 - linkIt's very easy to legitimately consume more than 200GB on any computer let alone a server:
- I believe in having multiple copies of personal docs and media I created: photos, personal videos, emails, installers, projects, etc
- if you have multiple desktops and laptops, each should be backed up
- and don't forget to backup the backup devices :-)
Do that for 30 years, and you'll have quite a collection. Only the inciminating evidence should be deleted on a regular basis.
Oh, and you'll only need that one file a few days after you delete it. Reply
dcaxax - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkWhen comparing NAS drives, reliability is by far the #1 concern. Power consumption and noise are also important, but by no means the deciding factor.
Testing the WD Red drives (especially given the pretty high failure rates of the plain WD Reds) without saying something about reliability makes the whole article pointless.
IF the drives are reliable, people will chose them over faster, chepaer and probablyn even noisier drivers. If you're going to to do this you needs to test at least 10-20 drives and come up with some kind of torture test to really push them. Reply
jaden24 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkThis is exactly why I only buy hard drives with 5yr warranties. The length of a warranty tells you a lot about the confidence of a manufacture in their product. When bad luck does arise, (usually around the 3-5yr range), you have a drive that gets replaced with no questions asked. At least that is my experience with WD. Reply
cen - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkToo bad HGST couldn't send the deskstar version.. I bought 4 of them a month ago for my FreeNAS build, excellent drives. Reply
bsd228 - Friday, August 08, 2014 - linkGanesh - can you put some questions out to the manufacturers and write a short article on the relevance of URE? I find it very hard to take this metric seriously when consumer drives are all marked as 'better than 1 in 10^14,' a nice round number that hasn't changed in a decade (forever?). Has there really been no improvement? Are they all really the same? And are enterprise drives precisely 10x better? Unlikely. And what is really different about them? Reply
shodanshok - Saturday, August 09, 2014 - linkHi,
We recently discussed the URE thing on the Linux raid mailing list. You can found more info here: http://marc.info/?l=linux-raid&m=1406791003244... Reply
asmian - Saturday, August 09, 2014 - link1 post is not a "discussion". And while this may be relevant for Linux users, it doesn't help anyone else, perhaps running RAID on Windows or using a NAS, for which some at least of these drives are marketed.
In the last discussion on this here, there was mention that ZFS (at least with double parity) can avoid UREs affecting array rebuilds. However, it looks as if Storage Spaces and the new ReFS file system now in Windows 8.1 and Windows Server can achieve the same thing as ZFS with much lower system resources (although it is necessary to bypass the Storage Spaces UI on Windows 8.1 for proper configuration). Can anyone share any experience of using ReFS, since this is quite new and directly challenges the Nas4Free/FreeNas route which requires FreeBSD as an OS? In particular, it makes a single media storage server/HTPC combo a feasible proposition, which might be very useful for many... Reply
shodanshok - Sunday, August 10, 2014 - linkIt is not a single post. It is a lengthy discussion of 18 different posts. Let me forward you to the first post: http://marc.info/?l=linux-raid&m=1406709331293...
When used in single parity scheme, no RAID implementation or file system is immune to UREs that happen during rebuild. What ZFS can do it to catch when a disk suddenly return garbage, which with other filesystem normally result in silent data corruption.
But UREs are NOT silent corruption. They happen when the disk can not read the requested block and give you a "sorry, I can't read that" message.
Regards. Reply
asmian - Sunday, August 10, 2014 - link>But URE's are NOT silent corruption.
They are if you are using WD Red drives, which Ganesh has previously said are using URE masking to play nicer with RAID controllers. They issue dummy data and no error instead of a URE. This, and the serious implications of it especially with single parity RAID (mirror/RAID5), is NOT mentioned in this comparative article, which is shocking.
To reiterate: if a RAID5 array (or a degraded RAID6) has a masked URE, there is no way to know which disk the error came from. And if the controller is NOT continuously checking parity against all reads for speed then the dummy data will be passed through without any error being raised at all. Worse, since you don't know there has been a read error, you will assume your data is OK to backup, so you will likely overwrite good old backups with corrupt data, since space for multiple copies is likely to be at a premium, so any backup mitigation strategy is screwed.
Given the fact that these are 4GB consumer class drives with 1 in 10^14 URE numbers, the chance of a URE when rebuilding is very high, which is why these Red drives are extremely unsafe in RAID implementations that do NOT check parity continuously. I already ran the numbers in a previous post, although they haven't been verified - Ganesh said he was seeking clarification from the manufacturers. Bottom line: caveat emptor if you risk your data to these drives, with or without RAID or a backup strategy. Reply
shodanshok - Sunday, August 10, 2014 - linkCan you provide a reference about URE masking? I carefully read WD Red specs (http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/library/SpecSheet/EN... and in no place they mention something similar to what you are referring. Are you sure you are not confusing URE with TLER?
After all, I find extremely difficult to think that an hard drive will intentionally return bad data instead of a URE.
The only product range where I can _very remotely_ find a similar thing useful is with WD Purple (DVR) series: being often used as simple "video storage" in single disk configuration, masking an URE will not lead to big problems. However, the proper solution here is to implement a configurable SCTERC o TLRE.
Regards. Reply
asmian - Sunday, August 10, 2014 - link> I find extremely difficult to think that an hard drive will intentionally return bad data instead of a URE.
Ganesh wrote to me: "As discussed in earlier WD Red reviews, the drive hopes to tackle the URE issue by silently failing / returning dummy data instead of forcing the rebuild to fail (this is supposed to keep the RAID controller happy)." Reply
shodanshok - Sunday, August 10, 2014 - linkThis seems more the functionality of TLER, rather than some form of URE masking. Anyway, if the RED drive really, intentionally return garbage instead of a read error, it should absolutely avoided.
Ganesh, can you clarify this point? Reply
asmian - Sunday, August 10, 2014 - linkA quick search back through previous WD Red drive reviews reveals nothing immediately. Ganesh ran a large article on Red firmware differences that covered configurable TLER behaviour, which is about dropping erroring drives out of an array quickly so that the array parity or other redundancy can take over and provide the data that the drive can't immediately retrieve, but nothing like this was mentioned.
However, in http://www.anandtech.com/show/6083/wd-introduces-r... the author Jason Inofuentes wrote: "They've also included error correction optimizations to prevent a drive from dropping out of a RAID array while it chases down a piece of corrupt data. The downside is that you might see an artifact on the screen briefly while streaming a movie, the upside is that you won't have playback pause for a few seconds, or for good depending on your configuration, while the drive drops off the RAID to fix the error."
That sounds like what Ganesh has said, although I can't see anything in his articles mentioning it. It may be a complete misunderstanding of the TLER behaviour, though. The problem with the behaviour described above is that it assumes that the data is not important, something that will only manifest as a little unnoticed corruption while watching a video file. But what if it happens while you're copying data to your backup array? What if it's not throwaway data, but critical data and you now have no idea that it's corrupt or unrecoverable on the disk so you NEED that last good backup you took... I don't think ANYONE is (or should be) as casual as that about the intrinsic VALUE of their data - why bother with parity/mirror RAID otherwise? If the statement is correct, it's extremely concerning. If not, it needs correcting urgently. Reply
Zan Lynx - Monday, August 11, 2014 - linkTo me that sounds like a short TLER setting. The description says nothing about if the drive returns an error or not. It may very well be the playback software receiving the error but continuing playback. Reply
asmian - Monday, August 11, 2014 - linkBut a short TLER is designed specifically to allow the array parity/redundancy to kick in immediately and provide the missing data by reconstruction. There wouldn't BE any bad data returned (unless there was no array redundancy). So as described this is NOT anything to do with short TLER. It is about the drive not returning an error when it can't read data successfully (ie. a URE), and issuing dummy data instead. The fundamental issue is that without an error being raised, neither the array hardware/software nor the user can take any action to remedy the data failure, whether that's restoring the bad data from backup or even highlighting the drive to see if this is a pattern indicative of likely failure.
There are some comments about it in that article which try to explain the scope (it seems to be limited to some ATA commands), but not in sufficient detail for me or most average users who don't know what ATA commands are sent by specific applications or the file system, and they certainly didn't answer my questions and misgivings. Reply
shodanshok - Monday, August 11, 2014 - linkHi, it seems more as a short TLER timeout rather than URE masking. Ganesh, can you clarify? Reply
ganeshts - Saturday, August 23, 2014 - linkYes, shodanshok is right ; TLER feature in these NAS drives is a shorter timeout rather than URE masking. Ian's quote of my exchange in a private e-mails was later clarified, but the conversation didn't get updated here:
1. When URE happens, the hard drive returns an error code back to the RAID controller (in the case of devices with software RAID, it sends the error back to the CPU). The error code can be used to gauge what exactly happened. A fairly detailed list can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_Code_Qualifier : URE corresponds to a medium error with this key code description: "Medium Error - unrecovered read error"
2. Upon recognition of URE, it is up to the RAID controller to decide what needs to be done. Systems usually mark the sector as bad and try to remap it. It is then populate with data recovered using the other drives in the RAID array. It all depends on the vendor implementation. Since most off-the-shelf NAS vendors use mdadm, I think the behaviour will be similar for all of those.
3. TLER just refers to quicker return of error code back to controller rather than 'hanging' for a long time. The latter behaviour might cause the RAID controller to mark the whole disk as bad when we have URE for only one sector. Reply
dzezik - Friday, September 26, 2014 - linkthat is why we do not use RAID but ZFS. think about it Reply
Navvie - Monday, August 18, 2014 - linkThanks. Interesting read. Reply
colinstu - Saturday, August 09, 2014 - linkbought 4x 4TB SEs last year, at least I'm not missing out on anything! Reply
dzezik - Friday, September 26, 2014 - linkare you sure You still have Your data on the disk and not random zeros and ones. how can You be sure without daily scrubbing. Reply
HollyDOL - Monday, August 11, 2014 - linkHi, are the bandwidths in graphs (page 5...) really supposed to be in Mbps (mega-bits per second)? Although it's correct bandwidth unit, the values seem to be really low (fastest tests would be about 30MB/s), the values provided I'd expect to be in MBps for the numbers to correspond... Reply
ganeshts - Monday, August 11, 2014 - linkThanks for catching it. It is indeed MBps. I have fixed the issue. Reply
GrumpyOldCamel - Wednesday, August 13, 2014 - linkraid5, seriously?
Why are you not focused on reliability, thankfully I see most of the other commentors are making similar points to mine, where did all the 10^16 and 10^17 drives go?
Why are we not exited about the newly leaked 10^18 drive?
When it comes to storage, you can keep size and you can keep speed, Im not interested.
I just want reliability. Reply
Gear8 - Saturday, September 13, 2014 - linkWhere measuring the heating ??? Where degrees Celsius ??? Reply
dzezik - Friday, September 26, 2014 - linkHey. This test setup is wrong. There is on SAS disk but there is no SAS HBA in the list of test setup. according to other tests benchamarks HGST SAS disk is the fastest from this list but it suffers because of poor or very poor controller. this comparison is worth nothing without good SAS HBA. and remember good HBA also increase SATA disk performance. embedded intel controllers are very simple and limited performance. good SAS HBA is about 150$ so it is not a big deal. regards Reply
KingSmurf - Wednesday, October 22, 2014 - linkJust wondering this review states for the WD Se:
Non-recoverable read errors per bits read < 1 in 10^14 and MTBF of 800k
while on WD's Specsheet it says for the Se:
Non-recoverable read errors per bits read < 1 in 10^15 and MTBF of 1 M (800k is the 1 TB only)
Did WD suddenly change the Spec Sheet - or was this review... let's say less than thorough? Reply
leexgx - Saturday, August 22, 2015 - linkold article i never seen issues with data reliability unless the drive itself has been problematic (bits of the disk that cant be read and the stupid drive not remapping it) norm i just change the drive once issues happen or random issues as i had with some samsung drives not liking my server (fine in other systems) Reply
bigbann - Tuesday, May 23, 2017 - linkthank you for the test. I just want to buy some used SAS drivers from https://www.servershop24.de/ . With your suggestions I can decide which is the best for me. Reply


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