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Samsung's Exynos 5 Octa: Powered by PowerVR SGX 544MP3, not ARM's Maliby Anand Lal Shimpi & Brian Klug on 1/13/2013 9:09 PM EST
- Posted in
- Samsung
- SoC
- exynos 5 octa
43 Comments
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jeffkibuule - Sunday, January 13, 2013 - linkWhat are the chances we'll see Exynos SoCs in non-Samsung devices? Still 0%? Reply
liem107 - Sunday, January 13, 2013 - linkExynos socs can be found on some lenovo phones and some chinese phones like meizu. Reply
larsivi - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkThe Cotton Candy by FXI also use Exynos. Reply
dishayu - Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - linkIndian "iBerry" tablets as well. Reply
edlee - Sunday, January 13, 2013 - linkthats great, now the gs4 will get all the game optimizations thats the apple games get.
as well as the fact that powervr 544MP3 is faster that mali t604, but mayber not as quick as T658 that samsung could not get ready in time. Reply
alex3run - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkPowervr is a third slower than mali t604, so it's strange that samsung has chosen a weaker GPU for its flagship SoC. That's why I think the rumor is fake. Reply
djgandy - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkShow your workings.... Reply
edlee - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkmaybe an 8 core mali t604 might be faster than a 4 core 543/544 series.
Buts its more efficient to have a four core 543/544, at least till mali T658 goes mainstream. Reply
alex3run - Monday, January 14, 2013 - link4 core Mali t604@ 533MHz = 68.2 GFLOPS, that's higher than can deliver PowerVR 544MP3 (51.1 GFLOPS). Reply
Death666Angel - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkBut it is usually getting outperformed in the offscreen tests vs the iPhone5 with a 543MP3 *link to Anandtech Nexus 10 performance figures* Am I missing something? Reply
alex3run - Thursday, January 24, 2013 - linkYou are missing that android is more power hungry than IOS. You won't get the same performance on android and IOS with the same GPU. Reply
djgandy - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - linkWhat has that got to do with delivering performance in test configurations? Are you saying the Mali cannot actually deliver any of its performance promises? Reply
alex3run - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - linkI try to explain that powervr wouldn't be so powerful on android as it seems on IOS. Exynos 5 octa would power android devices, right? Reply
kamejoko - Saturday, January 19, 2013 - linkhttp://www.cnx-software.com/2013/01/19/gpus-compar...
544MP2@532MHz = 136Gflops. why anandtech said 544MP3@533MHz = 51.2Gflops?
Who's wrong? Reply
alex3run - Thursday, January 24, 2013 - link3 cores * 4 SIMD/core * 4 ALU/SIMD * 2 Flops/ALU = 51168 Flops. Mali has similar core structure but it's quad core. Reply
blanarahul - Thursday, January 17, 2013 - linkMali-T658 is dead. And Nexus 10 will be the second and (most probably) the last device to use Mali-T604. Reply
alex3run - Saturday, January 26, 2013 - linkhttp://arm.com/products/mali-t658.php
It isn't dead. Reply
djgandy - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - linkExcept it is as ARM have pulled all indexing to its product page. Reply
blanarahul - Thursday, January 17, 2013 - linkIt doesn't matter. ARM has discontinued their 1st Gen Midguard GPUs (Mali-T604 and T658) for all intents and purposes. If you go to the Mali-T604 page, you see this message:
"Did you know about the ARM® Mali™-T624?
Designed for visual computing and using innovative tri-pipe architecture, the ARM® Mali™-T624 GPU Compute is the upgraded version of the Mali-T604. This solution builds upon a track record for high-quality scalable multicore solutions for 2D and 3D graphics. Key APIs supported include OpenGL® ES 1.1, 2.0 and 3.0, DirectX® 11 and OpenCL™ 1.1."
This means that ARM is pushing it's partners to use 2nd Gen Midguard GPUs (Mali-T624, T628 and T678) instead of 1st Gen Midguard GPUs.
ARM has even removed the Mali-T658 page from their servers. In fact the only reason Mali-T604's page is still present on ARM's website is because Nexus 10 has recently been launched. I guess this infuriated Samsung and they decided to leave Mali for the Exynos 5.
But this isn't the first time ARM's GPUs are being ignored. ARM has launched a total of 9 GPUs till now, out of which only 3 have made it to the market: Mali-200, Mali-400MP, and Mali-T604.
Mali-200: Chinese Android Devices
Mali-400MP: ST-Ericsson Novathor, Samsung Exynos 4, Allwinner A Series SoC.
Mali-T604: Exynos 5 Dual. Reply
mayankleoboy1 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkThen join them. No other mobile GPU could beat the PowerVR. The Mali is second best at best. And with high res displays, you need more horsepower.
I wonder, why did they not opt for the PowerVR Rogue arch ? That could have been much handy in beating Apple. Reply
warisz00r - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkLikely because they want to push this out as quick as they can, and that adding newer techs may impede them Reply
Death666Angel - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkHummingbird already used PowerVR hardware, so it's not surprising to see them go with that again.
As for PowerVR > anything, Adreno, especially the new 3xx series looks very competitive in terms of performance/power consumption and depending on the. Getting power consumption numbers for Mali GPUs is a bit more difficult, but for what they are, I find them quite adequate as well
But I guess Fanboys have conquered the smartphone hardware space now as well. Reply
mayankleoboy1 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkFTR, I am a Apple hater.
That said, for Samsung to make a big marketing impact on the semi-tech people, it should ace all the GPU benchies.
And PowerVR on Apple chips wins most of them. Reply
Death666Angel - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkYes, but not necessarily because PowerVR are the best (there aren't many good apples to apples comparisons for mobile GPUs out there). Apple spends the most die area of any SoC manufacturer on their GPU, that's why they are the fastest. Reply
djgandy - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - linkAnd most power efficient. There is a good argument to burn die space for power efficiency. Reply
McDave - Monday, January 14, 2013 - link"I wonder, why did they not opt for the PowerVR Rogue arch ? That could have been much handy in beating Apple."
Because Apple usually get the good stuff first? They're typically a version ahead of the comp hence the 554MP4 on the iPad4 vs the 54xMPx on the others. It's been this way since the first iPad. Probably Apple's 10% stake in Imagination working for them although the NovaThors have been touting Rogue for a couple of years but still no production - issues? Reply
Krysto - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkWell that's very disappointing. I was hoping for Mali T628. But even this Mali GPU is disappointing in itself. If they decided to move to PowerVR, they should've at least gone with Series 6. Instead of moving forward with OpenGL ES 3.0, they're moving backwards.
What the hell Samsung? I fear this may be just the first of Samsung's dumb moves in 2013, and 2012 may have been their peak. Reply
Krysto - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkeven this PowerVR GPU* Reply
DesktopMan - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkIf it's possible that this could end up in phones adding Apple A6 to the comparison table would make a lot of sense. Reply
JomaKern - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkI suspect, as Anand has mentioned before, that the power efficiency of the PowerVR architecture was a key decision in not using a Mali T6xx. In the power test article the T604 was pretty power hungry.
I don't think Apple will get Rogue into their next iPad, especially if the rumored March launch is true. A6X is so much faster than its rivals, they can use the die shrink to 28nm to boost clocks, and still easily have the fastest GPU. Reply
edlee - Monday, January 14, 2013 - link[IMG]http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4239/powervr.jpg[/IMG] Reply
ltcommanderdata - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkIt would be nice if they added a row that explicitly states what the max shipping frequencies for each chip are that are used to calculate the GLFOPS rating. Working backwards the frequencies are: 250MHz (A5), 250MHz (A5X), 533MHz (Exynos 5 Octa), 280MHz (A6X). The 280MHz A6X frequency in particular would be good to get explicitly on paper since it's been hinted at before, but I don't think anyone has explicitly stated it.
And for most correctness, I believe the GFLOPS actually round to 51.2 GLFOPS for the Exynos rather than 51.1 GFLOPS at 533MHz and 71.7 GFLOPS for the A6X rather than 71.6 GFLOPS at 280MHz. Reply
alexvoda - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkHow does the GPU in the Tegra4 compare to this, the A6X and to the future iPad 5?
Since Nvidia is a GPU company I expect their chip while it is fresh new to stomp everything else on the GPU side. How does it actually compare? Reply
augiem - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkHasn't happened yet. PVR and Apple have ruled the roost since 2007. Don't hold your breath. Every single halo mobile gpu launched in that timeframe has been one disappointment after another... well except of course for PVR launches. I'm really tired of waiting for 1) Some other device maker to use as many PVR cores as Apple and 2) Some other GPU developer (Nvidia!) to get off their butts and make something competitive. I think I'm going to close my eyes and check back in 3 years.... AGAIN. Reply
alexvoda - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkIn that case is an extra question.
How do they count cores?
From what I understand, current SoC with PowerVR have at most 4 PowerVR cores.
Mali designs are similar having at most 8 cores according to wikipedia
The Tegra 4 has 72 GPU cores of some kind.
Are they counting different things? Is the architecture so significantly different? Reply
ltcommanderdata - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkhttp://www.anandtech.com/show/5072/nvidias-tegra-3...
Yes they are counting different things. Each PowerVR "core" is really a complete GPU with shader ALUs, texture units, control logic, etc. Each nVidia "core" is really just a shader ALU. That's why Anand counts SIMDs which is basically the ALU count. Each SGX543/SGX544 "core" has 4 SIMDs/ALUs. Whereas each SGX554 "core" doubles the SIMD/ALU count to 8 per core. As such the SGX554MP4 in the A6X has 32 ALUs. PowerVR ALUs are also beefier and are able to process 4 MADs instructions each whereas each nVidia ALU can only do 1 MAD. That works out to the SGX554MP4 being able to process 128 MAD instructions per clock whereas Tegra 3 is only able to do 12. Tegra 4 is reported to use basically the same GPU shader architecture as Tegra 3 just with everything increased 6x. Tegra 4's 72 cores therefore can likely process 72 MAD instructions per clock vs 128 MAD instructions per clock for the SGX554MP4. Clock speeds, memory bandwidth, and other factors will affect real world performance, but clock-for-clock, the SGX554MP4 in the A6X should be faster than the Tegra 4. Reply
frenchy_2001 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkThe problem is always the same and likely to stay: cost.
This is reflected in the die area of each mobile chip. A5X (iPad3) was ~163mm2 while Tegra3 was ~80mm2. You are talking of a 2x factor. For twice the cost, Apple can afford to be better.
(see this table to see the different sizes: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5685/apple-a5x-die-s... )
In discreet GPU, this would be like comparing a GTX680 (top of the line, $400) to a Radeon 7870 (top middle, $200). The Nvidia card will trample the Radeon, at the cost of... money.
Of course, in the case of tablets and phone, we do NOT see those costs, as they get hidden into the total cost and often pocketed by the product manufacturer (another interesting link explaining why Apple may have introduced the iPad4 as a cost reduction: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/WebWise/e... )
So, as the GPU capabilities will be capped by costs, it is unlikely that we will see anyone else beat Apple (which, honestly, overspends in graphic power at the moment as a differentiation and advantage for gaming). Reply
mayankleoboy1 - Monday, January 14, 2013 - linkmoney and.... power usage at load/idle. Reply
djgandy - Tuesday, January 29, 2013 - linkThe cost between a 80mm2 die and a 160mm2 is not that huge if you are shipping in the tens of millions. You'd spend that $10 when it significantly improves your $500 device and imposes less demand on the battery, and the amount of heat from the device.
Having cool running silicon is very important in these slim devices. That's why apple burn area. It means they can design the device they want, rather than the device that the chip enforces them to.
Having a smaller, higher clocked and hotter running chip would probably cost Apple more in working around the constraints or having a larger battery. Reply
mikegonzalez2k - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkI thought calculating the GFLOPS was
# of Cores x Clock Speed x FLOPS/clock
I'm not getting the correct values so I was wondering if someone could show the calculation. Reply
mikegonzalez2k - Monday, March 04, 2013 - linkHere is my calculation, what is wrong?
533x10^6 * 4 cores * 4 SIMD/core * 4 ALU/SIMD * 2 Flops/ALU = 68.2 GFLOPS Reply
johamin - Saturday, April 13, 2013 - linkExynos 5 Octa does not support OpenGL ES 3.0 , Is it matter or not? Reply
lacp - Friday, June 14, 2013 - linkthe gpu of this phone has twice the graphic performance of the Iphone 5, which the gpu runs at 267MHz, then the gpu of the Galaxy S4 I9500 running at 533MHz, already that one core of the SGX544 gpu, at 200MHz has 7.2 GFLOPS of compute performance, 3 cores of SGX544 at 533MHz have 57.6 GFLOPS, not 51.1 GFLOPS, like the specialists of tech site Anandtech wrote. Reply


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Brad Pitt and Steve McQueen accept the award for Best Picture for '12 Years a Slave.'
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UF vs. Georgia softball postponed
Published: Friday, May 10, 2013 at 2:23 p.m.
Last Modified: Friday, May 10, 2013 at 2:23 p.m.
LEXINGTON, Ky. — Southeastern Conference officials have announced that the SEC Softball Tournament semifinals have been moved to Saturday at 11 a.m. and 1:30 p.m., respectively, due to inclement weather in the area.
Saturday's semifinal between No. 5 Georgia and No. 1 Florida will air live on ESPNU, while the second semifinal featuring No. 3 Missouri and No. 2 Tennessee will air on ESPN3. The championship game slated for Saturday at 8 p.m. remains as scheduled and will air live on ESPN.
Session four semifinal tickets will be honored on Saturday, and the stadium will be cleared following the conclusion of the second semifinal game. Re-entry will be allowed at 6:30 p.m. with session five ticket stubs.
FLORIDA vs. GEORGIA PREVIEW
Florida softball freshman center fielder Kirsti Merritt went a career tying 3-for-4 with five RBIs to help lead the top-seeded Gator softball team to an 8-4 victory over Alabama on Thursday in the quarterfinals.
Florida became the first team in the country to 50 wins with the victory, as the Gators are now 50-7 overall on the year. UF advances to the conference tournament semifinals and will face Georgia for a fourth time this season, as the Bulldogs defeated LSU, 7-0, in the second quarterfinal Thursday.
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.


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Thermaltake Level 10 GT: Monument to Excessby Dustin Sklavos on 7/26/2011 11:50 AM EST
- Posted in
- Cases/Cooling/PSUs
- Thermaltake
- Full-Tower
46 Comments
Back to Article
geniekid - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkI like the aesthetic and the design. If it were under $200, I'd seriously consider it for my next build.
That said, I eagerly await your review of the SilverStone FT02 and the Fractal Design R2, both of which I think are strong contenders in the quiet and cool arena, and both of which I think are good looking. Reply
HeroicTofu - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkAs an owner of the SilverStone FT02, I will say that I'm very impressed with the case. It has a very professional and sleek look to it which I so very much prefer to cases such as the CoolerMaster HAF 922 (to each their own right?). It's cooling efficiency is nuts as well. Compared to my previous case, the temps are a good 15-20 degrees cooler at full loads. Motherboard would get up to 60 degrees celsius where as in the FT02, it's rare when I see it exceed 40. It idles just 8 degrees above room temperature. Reply
geniekid - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkYes, I've read good things about the FT02 and it's my favorite in terms of looks. Unfortunately, the +$200 price tag forces me to consider the cheaper Fractal Design R3 case for my next build. Reply
SunLord - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkI love my FT02B the only thing remotely lacking on it is USB3.0 but since it predates the USB3 spec it's easy to forgive. I've got it running 5 2tb drive with the hot swap brackets and a new 128g ssd it's pure awesome and mostly silent. I wish it came with a 3.5" external bay adapter given it's price so I could of mounted my card reader right when I got it but that is a minor annoyance at best. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkActually, SilverStone offers a USB 3.0 bracket to swap into the FT02. They sent me one along with the review unit. Reply
ggathagan - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkDustin,
Did Silverstone provide a part number for that bracket?
No mention of it on their website. Reply
Kisakuku - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkEmail Joel at email@example.com. The replacement cable is $12 + $6 shipping. Silverstone isn't advertising this part, but they will sell it to you. Reply
IAMTHEPROCESSOR - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkOk I emailed him and I am awaiting a reply but might you tell me whats the link to your review please so I can see the usb 3.0 cable swap? Thank you! Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkThe FT02 cable swap is SUPER simple. My review isn't written up yet (I literally JUST finished doing assembly and photography), but the housing is held on by two screws. You remove the housing, and then two more screws hold the USB/audio jack board in place. Remove those, slide the board out, slide the new board in, presto change-o. Reply
iamafish - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkI own the FT02B, and in my long experience with cases it is by far and away the best I have opened up and played with. Sleek looks, lots of space, well designed, great fans, cooling is brilliant. The whole thing oozes quality, it's worth the asking price.
This Thermaltake however is ugly as hell, I wouldn't pay bargain basement prices for something that looks like it had an accident at the car crusher. Reply
B3an - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkYep thats one seriously ugly case! Just what this market segment needs... yet ANOTHER ugly case.
Why is it so hard for these companies to design nice looking cases that dont look like cheap tacky shit??!
If i see this at a friends house i would think a blind family member built it, or they found random old cheap case parts in a dump and glued them all together. Reply
Sunburn74 - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkSecond that thought. Own a FT02. Case is amazing. There is nothing on the market I'd replace it with, even if the replacement was free (even including some of those $400+ lian lis) Reply
etamin - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkagreed. I saw the Level 10 GT at microcenter and the entire exterior surface looks like it's covered in wads of incompletely melted plastic pellets. The market needs more clean cut refined box towers with all 90 degree angles (hint hint look at Lian Li)
Built three Lian Li's: PC-A71F, PC-B10, PC-9F Reply
dfjgkheu - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - link
believe you will love it.
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The best sports shoes store,cheap and high stuff Reply
Stuka87 - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkNo Sir, I don't like it.
I actually really liked the original Level 10. It had a cool look. But this one just looks like a cheap knockoff.
It actually reminds me of a cheap plastic RC car that has the same basic shape as the real thing, but with many of the details filled in. So you end up with a plasticky looking knock off.
It seems to cool decently, but its *really* a stretch to say its worth the price. Reply
Tetracycloide - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkCould not a agree more, this is a huge step down in aesthetics from the previous generation which and a much slimmer, sleeker look and feel to it. This one looks like some kind of grotesque, mutant hybrid offspring of the original Level 10 and the stereotypical 'enthusiast' case with plastic and mesh everywhere. Reply
ViperV990 - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkThe original Level 10 wasn't something I'd have associated with ThermalTake.
This Level 10 GT here however, definitely belongs. Reply
etamin - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - link"This one looks like some kind of grotesque, mutant hybrid offspring of the original Level 10 and the stereotypical 'enthusiast' case with plastic and mesh everywhere."
Spot on. You read my mind. Reply
marvdmartian - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkPersonally, I'd love to know who thinks it's a good idea to build a case that looks like some half-mad person slapped together a modular home, over a 40-year period of time. Add a box here, add something there, etc.
Looks like something a teenager would build, to tell the truth. And at that price point, I'm 100% certain that one of these will never cross my home's threshold! Reply
don_k - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkThis over a Lian-Li? I would say no. Reply
Skott - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkPerformance wise it may be good but its not what I would call a sleek case. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though. It looks rugged however. More like something you would take out and carry around every day in a work environment. Not that I would want to carry it around every day. It may look rugged, be rugged, but it would also be very heavy and impractical for that. Reply
jsbiggs - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkNice review, but I have a problem with the graphs. Maybe it's just my eyes, but I absolutely cannot read the white text on the bright yellow bar representing the Level 10 GT. The darker yellow is fine, but when the brightness goes up, I just can't tell what the numbers are. You can easily infer the performance relative to the other offerings, but would be better if you could read the number. Reply
tzhu07 - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkI still prefer the simplicity of something like a R3 Define case or Lian Li. The Level 10 is incredibly tacky. Reply
Tetracycloide - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkI can't say I've ever seen a steel and plastic enclosure that was worth over $200 before reading this article and afterward. Still no. Reply
StickyIcky - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkAm I the only one that thinks this thing looks like a severely mutated Playstation 2? Reply
danjw - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkIf you are going for air cooled, I personally would go for the Silverstone FT02. If liquid cooled, I think the HAF X would be my choice. Personally I don't really like the looks of either the HAF X or Level 10 GT, but from a utility standpoint the HAF X wins in my book. It would be great if you guys would do a review of it. Reply
Kevin G - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkHaving purchased on of these a few months back, I can say that it isn't perfect but pretty good.
First the negatives. Unlike this review, I took advantage of the fact that an EATX motherboard will fit into this case. Fitting such a large motherboard into the chassis isn't easy. I was further hampered by needing to remove some of the standoffs which wasn't that big of a problem. However, I discovered that the paint on the motherboard tray is a bit thin as I scratched a spot near one of the stand offs. Getting the IO panel properly mounted with an such a large motherboard is pain. Similarly, mounting a large PSU is also a pain. Another oddity is that the rear 120 mm fan doesn't match the rest of the fans which color changing LEDs. The feet rotate 90 degrees which is generally a good thing overall but they're very easy to move and feel like they're break if some one stubbed them while walking by. The USB 3.0 ports are nice but to use them on most motherboard you'll need to have them plug into the rear IO panel instead of a header on the motherboard. I wish ThermalTake included a USB2.0 header or USB3.0 header adapter so that keeping the USB 3.0 cable internal was an option (I have such an adapter from elsewhere and it works rather well).
Now for the good news. It is very quiet and it manages to keep my build cool. The ability to adjust the air flow of the side fan is a very, very nice feature to help keep a high end GPU cool. The side panel uses a novel approach to cable management with regards to the side fan: opening up the door turns off the fan due to a series of pins that don't connect when open. Speaking of the side panel, it locks independent of the hard drive bays. There is no actual back plane for the hard drives which for a consumer case works rather well. You can use you own power and data cables to each individual drive if you so choose while retaining removability. The case is large but the face that it has a handle makes moving it relatively easy. Overall I do like the case as it is functional, quiet and good looking in my eyes. Reply
etamin - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkWith that many mesh panels, it looks like a nightmare to dust out. I didn't see anything in regard to filters either.
Call me shallow, but if a case doesn't look good (exemplified by this one), it doesn't matter how user-friendly, upgradable, cool, and efficient it is...it sure as hell isn't going in my room. Reply
mlosee222 - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkI'd be interested to see how these new fangled cases hold up to the classic Antec 900. Often imitated but never duplicated. Reply
Money Loo - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkLoved the article, per usual. However the choice of yellow for the bar graphs makes it difficult to read the numbers in them. Sure, I can sort of ascertain what it might be by looking at the other numbers above and below it, or by holding ctrl+mouse wheeling up to make them bigger. Just a small nitpick in an otherwise great write up. Reply
KoolAidMan1 - Tuesday, July 26, 2011 - linkIt is inferior in construction and design to Corsair and Silverstone cases, yet it costs more than most of them. Again, I don't see the point. Reply
kevith - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkI don´t think it´s all that ugly. And actually, I´m surprised to see how many, that are willing to set looks over anything else when we´re talking an enthusiast case like this.
To me it´s about cooling and noise, and in those fields this seems like an absolute winner.
The issue of the securing the drives doesn´t matter to me anyways, I´m am a silence-freak, so I always find a way and a place to hang my drives freely mounted in rubberbands. Every "silencing, rubber mounting grommets" I ever tried were absolutely worthless. And HDD hum is a major noise factor. Eliminated trough SSD´s of course.
(Frankly, I dont understand why manufacturers haven´t made up a "rubberband munting system long ago, and a caselike this isn´t supposed for lan-parties anyway.)
And the price: Come on, if you go for this case it´s probably going to last you a very long time, so if you take the price pr. year, it´s not more than a cheaper case, that´s likely to be swapped substantially sooner.
One thing about the price though: It´s not very nice to read about a poor paint job in this segment!!
But thumbs up for Kevin G.´s post, the fine review and the interesting case Reply
CList - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkSo I have a question for other "enthusiasts" out there...
If you have the means and/or prioritize your PC so much that you're willing to spend $250+ on a case - why on earth do you need that many drive bays? Is it a macho thing to have a large case or do you actually have that many drives that you want to keep?
I mean drives are so damn cheap these days... How many do you need? If you are willing to buy such an expensive case, then there's really no reason to own a drive that's smaller than maybe 750GB. Give the thing away and buy a larger one.
If you need 10TB of RAIDed storage isn't it a lot easier to just put it on a little NAS box that you can stick in the closet with your router?
Similarly for DVD drives - does anyone even have more than one now? What on earth do you use it for? I have one external USB-based BluRay drive that I plug in when I want to watch a movie or install some software, and then it goes back in the drawer for another two months.
I have a really hard time understanding why anyone would want so many drive bays - unless you're operating on a budget, in which case why would you buy this case or one like it? Is it a "mine is bigger than yours" thing?
Not trying to be critical, just curious...
CList Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkNAS boxes still cost money, and even if they're RAIDed you're still looking at a bottleneck over the network interface.
Honestly, I'd use all the 3.5" drive bays here. I edit video; I keep project files and personal data on a RAID 1, then my scratch disk and gaming drive is on a RAID 0. And then my system drive is on an SSD.
People out there will definitely use these drive bays.
As for optical drives, I have a blu-ray reader and then a blu-ray writer, so that's two right there. ODDs are becoming less and less important over time, but they're still relevant. Reply
etamin - Friday, July 29, 2011 - linkThinking as logically as I can, I think the bays only exist to fill up space, a decision by the manufacturer and not something a typical user looks for. With at least one bay and a hdd rack, the length of the case must become longer. If a full sized tower (sized based on mobo) were to maintain a semi box-like appearance, there would be a lot of empty space in the front end. Using that space for extra fans is less cost effective for manufacturers than simply adding racks to the chassis. Some makers go for hdd racks, and others go for bays.
Just a thought.. Reply
just4U - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkI build a fair number of systems and get to test out alot of cases because of that.. I keep thinking that perhaps it's time to go back to some older models since the designers of some of these cases need to be shot. I use 2 Lian-Li PC60 cases. (7 years now) and keep going back to them. Removable motherboard trays, Brushed aluminum, and just overall solid designs. I keep changing fans but that's it.
I think.. make the case a little fatter to accomadate 120mm fans (front back) Move the Psu to the bottom, add a filter, add 1 140 or 200m fan to the top, add usb 3.0 and microphone/headphone jacks to the front.. you now have the perfect case. Call it a day. Even lian-li won't do it. Ticks me off. How hard can this be??? Reply
just4U - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkand yes .. I know about the Lian Li PC-60FNW but it doesn't have a removable motherboard tray like the PC60,A,+ etc. Not sure why Lian-Li moved away from them because they were major selling points. Reply
etamin - Friday, July 29, 2011 - linkgood news...what you want exists: Lian Li PC-V2120
bad news...it's oversized and very expensive Reply
corriellan - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkI'm adopting this one. Reply
Conscript - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linklooks like we have another Stranger in a Strange Land fan...I smiled :) Reply
DethFiesta - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkI have an FT02 and find it to be an excellent case. Huge and heavy, yes, but highly functional and understated (except for the size). I look forward to the comparison between the Level 10 and Ft02, but even if the FT02 comes out behind, I wouldn't swap over due to the absurd look of the Level 10.
Also, "duckets" are spelled "ducats." Reply
hammer256 - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkI Recently got the FT 02 to build a machine for work, and man I am impressed. Curiously to see what the review says.
A few things I really like about the FT02:
1. all the connections are on the top of the case, so much easier to access than the back.
2. The video card hangs vertically, so less bending on the motherboard.
3. Really quiet fans with lots of airflow. I only keep them at low.
4. really clean, professional looking case.
But, I wish it didn't have five 5.25 bays, and instead another 5 bay hdd cage. Also, the top cover and latch could be better. The space behind the motherboard tray could be a bit wider, for easier cable management. Finally, would be nice to actually access the dust filters without opening the case. Fairly minor gripes, all things considered. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Thursday, July 28, 2011 - linkI'll be doing thermal testing this weekend, but early impressions are very favorable.
Our rep was hesitant to send it to us because it's (in technology years) a fairly old chassis, and I'm sure they're probably working on refining it. But it's still fantastic, and truthfully the clearance behind the motherboard tray is about on par with most other enclosures these days. It could be wider, but it's not too bad.
When I go to review it I'll have suggestions for the next revision, but my major takeaway is just...with this as a reference point, the Raven RV-03 feels like such a step back despite being newer. Reply
rickon66 - Wednesday, July 27, 2011 - linkMy build before last was in an Antec Nine Hundred, but my last build was in an Antec Two Hundred that I got for $30 at Micro Center last fall. It does everything that this Thermaltake does -Great cooling, very roomy and it holds all of the stuff that makes up a computer togeather. What really do you need more than that? I adjusted my expectations of a case down so that I had more cash for a processor and video card that makes a real difference in performance. . Kind of like a rat rod - no show, just go. Unless you have money to burn a super fancy case is just bling. Reply
james.jwb - Thursday, July 28, 2011 - linkApple fanboys don't have much real ammunition to throw at PC users, but when a case like this comes out i can see them all laughing their asses off, and justifiably so.
hideous. Reply
WT - Friday, August 12, 2011 - linkI love this case. Started off looking at an NZXT Phantom or a Corsair 600 SE, but after watching some vids of the Level 10 GT, I really do want it to be #1 on my list.
My fave features:
SATA backplane - no more cable mess !!
Side fan features a touch contact - no more umbilical power line !!
Support for a dual radiator - was going to go H80, now I can go H100.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One thing about this case is it is definitely a conversation piece as opposed to the average black box. Reply


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Windows Vista: Beta 2 Previewby Ryan Smith on 6/16/2006 12:05 AM EST
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75 Comments
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aeschbi99 - Wednesday, July 05, 2006 - linkHi
I just loved your article about Vista....especially the comparison to TIGER...I am a big MAC fan! But what MS did with Flip3D it appears to me is a copy of SUN's "Looking Glass" - which was out I believe even in 2003.
Redmond --- start your copy machine.... the real invention starts somewhere else....
see link http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2...">http://java.sun.com/developer/technical...s/J2SE/D... Reply
absynthe49 - Saturday, July 01, 2006 - linkI really enjoy anandtech but I didn't really like the style of this article. When I read it.. I was quite sad that vista was looking so bad at this stage... particularly the game performance.
But then I remembered that I read in a few places that Vista would not support native DirectX 9. That it would be in a way.. emulated. So there was an expected decrease in numbers. My understanding was that new powerful hardware would be coming out and that it would run the older games fast enough to overcome the loss from emulation.
The article almost seemed to say that gaming looks doomed in a way.
So basically... the drivers are not tweaked yet... this is still a beta... there may still be a debugging layer running... and I think vista runs directx 9 through an emulation layer.
So unless this is false and it actually runs directx 9 natively... is it really a surprize at all that directx 9 games run from 20 to 30 frames per second slower? This did not seem to be addressed at all in the article and I thought it was kind of premature worry so much. Reply
NullSubroutine - Monday, June 19, 2006 - linkthey can say every hardware/software limitation they want. i dont buy that they 'cant' make dx10 for xp and they 'cant' have full opengl support. just too convienent for microsoft. Reply
mongo lloyd - Sunday, June 18, 2006 - linkAlthough Microsoft may not consider itself to be in direct competition with Apple, this is the match-up most people have been waiting for. Only people who give a shit about OSX, which is far from "most people". Reply
drewintheav - Sunday, June 18, 2006 - linkI thought the staged install method was supposed to be so fast?
It took way longer to install than it does for me to install XP.
The Vista Media Center is not useable at this point...
The video stutters, the audio drops out, and it crashes all the time.
I had always heard Mac fanatics saying how much better OSX was than XP
I didn't really believe it could be "so much" better
I tried out OSX after I installed Vista.
And now it is very obvious to me where Microsoft has gotten most of its new UI ideas.
At this point I would say that Microsoft's has executed them very poorly
which is a little disappointing.
It is disappointing to me that even if everything worked perfectly in Vista
it would still lag behind OSX on a number of points
In fact if Apple sold OSX for Intel as a retail product
and added a Media Center application
I would switch to MAC and just run windows Windows apps with an emulator or a VM
and dual boot XP for games.
Microsoft really has a lot of work to do and I hope they get it together...
OSX is way more innovative than Vista at this point... Reply
AndrewChang - Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - linkWell, after months of deliberation, it looks like my next personal computing platform will be a merom/leopard based mac book pro. I don't expect to be using a vista based pc until at least the first or second service pack. A fully intergrated bookcamp/virtualization in this next OSX release should take care of my legacy applications (games on xp). Thanks Anandtech, w/o your Macintosh articles I would have never considered all the wonderful options available to me. It'll be fun learing how to use a new OS, especially one that is already superior what us PC users have to look forward to. Reply
Pirks - Monday, June 19, 2006 - link
In fact if Apple sold OSX for Intel as a retail product
There's no point - since Dell with the same configuration as iMac and with the same set of basic apps (like DVD burning/mastering etc) costs the same as iMac - why would you buy Dell in the first place? To me it seems that if you spend $1500 on a Dell plus retail Mac OS X instead of iMac - you'll get lower quality product.
Hence no retail Mac OS X - nobody is interested because iMacs are priced on par with comparable Dells.
and added a Media Center application
There is Front Row - check out decent Mac sites, read reviews - you'll be surprised how much you missed, hehe ;-) Reply
nullpointerus - Monday, June 19, 2006 - linkNot everyone who wants to run Mac OS X wants to purchase a prebuilt computer for it. You should know that if you're posting here because this site is mostly made up of enthusiasts.
Mac OS X w/ Front Row isn't comparable to Windows MCE. Show me the integrated program guide and automatic recording capabilities. You may as well compare Paint to Gimp or Photoshop. Reply
Pirks - Monday, June 19, 2006 - link
quote:Same can be said about the post of the guy above asking for the OS X retail version. If I should know this site is for enthusiasts - THEN HE SHOULD KNOW what OS X is and why it is so successful and generates lots of buzz in IT press - pecisely because it DOES NOT have a retail version. Hence asking OS X to give up it's number one advantage - smooth integration with hardware because hardware is NOT open - is not much smarter than my post above.
Not everyone who wants to run Mac OS X wants to purchase a prebuilt computer for it. You should know that if you're posting here because this site is mostly made up of enthusiasts.
quote:Depends on what the user wants. I suppose some users are happy with limited functionality of Paint and don't need/don't want Photoshop. Reply
Mac OS X w/ Front Row isn't comparable to Windows MCE
nullpointerus - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - link"We also tested the boot times for a clean install of each operating system, using a stopwatch to see how long it took for the OS to boot to the point where it presented a usable login screen."
Um...you must have something seriously wrong with your system. I'm using a lowly Athlon64 3000+ Winchester and 2GB PC3200 RAM. I did a clean install of the x64 version and timed it with my digital watch; it took ~50 seconds to get to the desktop, not the login screen. I had to switch to the 32-bit version because of driver support, and I can tell you it doesn't take 48 seconds to get to the login screen.
Now, if you rummage around in the control panel's performance applet, you can look at services and drivers which are slowing the boot process down; USB audio and nVidia's drivers affected my system, and even so it starts nearly 30 seconds faster than your clean x64 system. Maybe there's something on your PC that's causing problems?
Also, something on my second boot will chew up large amounts of CPU time, making the login screen unresponsive. On subsequent boots this problem disappeared, and I was able to enter my password immediately and login fairly quickly. I have drivers for my Linksys WMP54GX and Creative Audigy installed now, too, so my PC should be worse than your clean system.
Maybe you could check these things out and retest? Reply
dev0lution - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkI'd happily boot into Vista everyday if all of my hardware devices would work. Not MS's fault, but rather my fault for buying a smaller manufacturer's product who has yet to post even beta drivers.
In combination with Office 207 Beta2 and IE 7, Vista x86 has run fine and rather stable for me. It does tend to eat up a bit of memory, but I should probably add another GB anyhow. If I could just solve a couple app related problems and get Media Center (and MC remote) to change the channel on my set top box, I wouldn't be running from my MCE disk much at all anymore.
I kind of like the new layout and explorer... Reply
RogueSpear - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkI've had been using Vista on one of my computers until shortly after the Beta 2 was released for public consumption. Once I saw that there was no appreciable improvements in that release, I finally decided to revert back to the relative comfort and superior performance of XP. First off, I have nightmares when I think of the mass confusion that will ensue among the mass of computer neophytes that are just now getting over the adjustment from moving off of 98/ME to XP. These will be trying days for help desk staff and even those are the "computer guy" in their family.
More importantly, changes that are allegedly substantial, seem to me more cosmetic than anything. Yes, I realize that there are a lot of serious changes under the hood, but the benefits you can see and touch appear very superficial at best. This seems like an extreme makeover in an attempt to get people signed up for even more pervasive and hideous DRM. I know I'm living in the past, but I'll always be nostalgic for the days when my computer was actually my computer and the software/media I paid for were mine to use as I saw fit. Reply
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkI noticed this sentence: "As currently implemented, UAC surpasses Tiger's security features by giving more information about what application is requesting privilege escalation" Could you please elaborate a little on what "more information" exactly Vista provides in UAC dialogs that Tiger does NOT provide?
From my experience Tiger gives the same information, I probably misunderstood you on that, could you please explain in more detail? Reply
johnsonx - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
Our beta version of Vista came on two separate DVDs, one for x86 and one for x64, but we're not sure at this point if Microsoft is going to package Vista in a dual-layer DVD with an installer that can pick the right version, or if it will continue to come on separate discs. It's also worth noting that Vista will choose which version of itself to install based on the product key used, as now all versions (for x64 and x86) will use the same installation media, which will be a relief for doing reinstalls.
Ok, these two sentences seem contradictory. First you say you don't know if 32-bit and 64-bit versions will come on the same disc with an installer that can pick correctly, then in the next sentence you say the installer will pick based on product key because both versions will use the same install media.
So which is it, or there there something I'm not getting?
Ryan Smith - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkThere's something you're not getting. A disc can install any variation of Vista(e.g. 1 disc can install Home Basic x86, Home Premium x86, Ultimate x86, etc); it can only install that bit-version of Vista however. Reply
DerekWilson - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkit is difficult to say ... i think three different editors mucked around with that sentence :-)
to try a different angle, both of these are true statements:
1) the x86 disk can install any x86 version of vista
2) the x64 disk can install any x64 version of vista Reply
dhei - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWhen you can, do a test to see how well they redid it please. Someone told me this would be noticable on those with broadband easily, not just LAN or network tests. Im really intrested in this aspect, though not sure how to really test it.
Did you try a LAN benchmark vs winxp to see if any diffrence? Reply
Ryan Smith - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWe did not do that, it was already a 12k word article + the time to run the benchmarks we did use. We'll be taking a much heavier look at performance once we have a final version of Vista to look at. Reply
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkand read this while you're at it:
You can minimize the risk of a network service being used to attack your machine by using the firewall built into Mac OS X. Called ipfw, it can prevent potential attackers from reaching these services. As of Mac OS X 10.2, Apple has included a simple GUI for configuring ipfw. The GUI is good for adding simple rules to your machine; more complex rules will require you to use either the command line tools for manipulating the firewall, or a third-party GUI that has more features.
Ryan, do you know what BSD ipfw is? It blows any XP firewall to ashes, Vista is only pathetic attempt to get to its level (well hopefully MS will get something similar in Vista, I really hope they do)
Also read this: http://personalpages.tds.net/~brian_hill/brickhous...">http://personalpages.tds.net/~brian_hill/brickhous...
That's another GUI to configure ipfw in OSX.
Otherwise an excellent article, I'm impatiently wait for your review of the final Vista release, but please don't do such stupid mistakes again, Mac boys will hack and slash you for that ;-)
"it's time for a full featured firewall for Windows and Mac OS X alike, and only the former has it" - what a funny lie :-) Please read about OSX ipfw (I gave you a couple of links) and fix it ASAP. Thanks. Reply
Ryan Smith - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkI'm aware of IPFW, and what it can do(and boy is it nice!). But this is a competition among what the two OS's can do on their own, without significant intervention from the user. Out of the box, Vista's firewall is a full-featured firewall that can block inbound and outbound connections. Tiger's firewall can't do the latter, and in the age of spyware(and as you saw in our spyware test), it's sometimes the last thing keeping spyware and other malware from breaking out.
Tiger may not have significant malware problems at this point, but there's no good reason why it(and more so Leopard) shouldn't have outbound protection too. Reply
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
quote:Excuse me, what? How about this then: http://www.macworld.com/2006/05/reviews/osxfirewal...">http://www.macworld.com/2006/05/reviews/osxfirewal...
Out of the box, Vista's firewall is a full-featured firewall that can block inbound and outbound connections. Tiger's firewall can't do the latter
"The emphasis is on incoming. As it ships from Apple, the firewall does not monitor traffic that may be originating from your own computer. If your Mac gets possessed by a malware application that then attempts to attack or infect other computers via your Internet connection (a not-uncommon trick), OS X's firewall won't, by default, pay any attention. And, there's no way to change this default setting from your System Preferences. To force the firewall to monitor outbound traffic, you must use Terminal's command-line interface."
See - IT CAN monitor and block outbound traffic, contrary to what you say. It's just a matter of configuring it properly. You should at least correct your article and stop saying OSX ipfw CAN'T track outbound connections. You can say this: it's SET UP not to monitor outbound connections BY DEFAULT but anyone can CONFIGURE it to monitor outbound connections either through third party GUI like Flying Buttress or via command line. Then you won't look like a liar to any Mac guy who cares to read your review. Reply
Ryan Smith - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkI see your point, but I believe there's nothing in the article that needs changing. Tiger's firewall can't block outbound connections without having to drop to the terminal to muck with IPFW, I do not classify that as an ability any more than I classify Vista x64 as being amateur driver programmer friendly(since you need to drop to the terminal to turn off the x64 integrity check). When a version of Mac OS X ships with a proper GUI for controlling outbound firewalling(as is the Apple way), then it will be capable by a reasonable definition. Right now it's nothing more than a quirk that results from using the BSD base. Reply
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
quote:Excellent point! So, when (and if) Mac OS X will see its share of virii and malware, THEN Apple will incorporate outbound connection settings in OS X GUI - right now it's not needed by Mac users, and the rare exceptions are easily treated with third party apps and command line.
When a version of Mac OS X ships with a proper GUI for controlling outbound firewalling(as is the Apple way), then it will be capable by a reasonable definition.
OK, got your point, agreed, issue closed. Thanks :) Reply
bjtags - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkVista x64
I have been pounding on it for 4 days never crash or even farted once!!!
Have all HalfLife 2 and CS running Just Great!!!
Had at one time 10 IE windows open, MediaPlayer, Steam updating, download driver,
updating windows drivers, and 3 folder explorer windows open, and tranfering
4gig movie to HD!!!
Still ran fine... I do have AMD 4800 x2 with 2gigs...
Poser - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkTwo questions:
1. What's the ship date for Vista supposed to be? Q4 of 2006?
2. I seem to remember that speech recognition would be included and integrated with Vista. Is it considered too much of a niche toy to even mention, not considered to be part of the OS, or am I just plain wrong about it's inclusion?
It was a extremely well written article. Very nice job. Reply
Ryan Smith - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link1. Expected completion is Q4 with some business customers getting access to the final version at that time. It won't be released to the public until 2007 however.
2. You're right, speech recognition is included. You're also right in that given the amount of stuff we had to cover in one article it was too much of a niche; voice recognition so far is still too immature to replace typing. Reply
ashay - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link"Dogfooding" is when a company uses their own new product (not necessarily beta) for internal use.(maybe even in critical production systems).
Term comes from "eat your own dog-food". Meaning if you're a dog food maker, the CEO and execs eat the stuff. If they like it they dogs hopefully will.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_one%27s_own_dog_f...">Wikipedia link Reply
fishbits - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkYes, I know it's still beta, we'll see. The UAC and signed drivers schemes sound like they'll be flops right out of the gate. Average user will quickly realize he can't install or use anything until he adopts a "just click 'Yes'" attitude, which will reward him with a functioning device/running program. I've lost count of how many drivers I've installed under XP that were for name-brand devices, yet didn't have the official seal of approval on them. Again, get trained to "just click 'Yes'" in order to be able to do anything useful. Without better information given to the user at this decision point, all the scheme does is add a few mouse-clicks and no security. Like when you install a program and your security suite gives a "helpful" warning like "INeedToRun.exe is trying to access feccflm.dll ... no recommendation."
As expected, it looks like the productivity gains of GPU-acceleration were immediately swallowed up by GUI overhead. Whee! "The users can solve this through future hardware upgrades." Gotcha. For what it's worth, the gadgets/widgets look needlessly large and ugly, especially for simply displaying things like time, cpu temp/usage. Then it sounds like we're going to have resource-hungry programs getting starved because of GPU sharing, or will have an arms-race of workarounds to get their hands on the power they think they need.
Ah well, I've got to move to 64-bit for RAM purposes relatively soon. Think I'll wait a year or two after Vista 64 to let it get stable, faster, and better supported. Then hopefully the programs I'll need to upgrade can be purchased along the lines of a normal upgrade cycle. Games I'm actually not as worried about, as I expect XP/DX9 support to continue for a decent bit and will retain an XP box and install Vista on a brand new one when the time comes. Reply
shamgar03 - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkI really hope that will mean for BETTER GPU performance not worse. I would really just like to be able to boot into a game only environment where you have something like a grub interface to pick games and it only loads the needed stuff for the game. Reply
darkdemyze - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkbeta implies "still in developement". chances are very high performance will see an increase by the time of release. I agree with your seconds statement though. Reply
Squidward - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkHaving beta tested Windows XP when it was released, I have to say that so far I'm not very impressed with Vista. Granted there is still quite some time before final release but even with RC1 of XP it was a rock solid stable OS that I used as my full time OS and never had any issues whatsoever (especially security cause no one was writing viruses and malware for it back then). Quite frankly I don't see how the beta 2 I've been looking at and the final polished out the door product is going to happen in 7 months for a Jan. launch. The real problem however lies in the fact that I know I will move up to Vista at some point, but not because it's a better OS than XP but that I'll be hindered by continuing to use an older operating system. I just haven't seen anything in it yet that made me go. "Now that's the kind of feature I've been needing!", and the few features that did make me feel that way were removed to be implemented 'at a later date'. Fancy graphical effects are nice and all, but they don't make an OS. As it stands in the betas the UAC feature is just a complete hinderance that to me seems to punish the end user because of security risks that are out there. The end user shouldn't get a pop up on every single application or item they open to be sure it's 'safe'. There are far better means of controlling permissions within an OS that would have made a lot more sense that what we have now with UAC. That being said, I believe in time and with Microsoft really listening to customer feedback they'll work out a lot of the kinks, but I won't consider purchasing Vista until they do... or force me to upgrade. :)
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
quote:Besides this thing being early beta, also keep in mind that it's not a cosmetic chaneg akin to upgrade from W2k to XP or from OSX 10.3 to 10.4 - this is a major OS overhaul not too far from migration from 9x to NT, of course early beta of such a grand release will be total crap (at least for many people, but some others seem to enjoy it a lot). So, comparing this early beta release to XP release candidate is indeed pretty stupid. I don't even expect Vista release to be 100% usable out of the box, ESPECIALLY x64 version - Vista 64 will take another year or two to mature, get drivers/apps ready and such. And you should also keep in mind that MS is in a big hurry to avoid Apple to chop its balls off - some more delay and you'll see Apple market share well over 10% which is pretty dangerous to MS if they wanna keep enjoying their desktop x86 OS monopoly status. Hence MS does stuff quickly, cuts off features and will probably release something buggy just to avoid serious threat from Apple. Expect something usable only after SP1 and give it at least a year - in a meantime read some rumours about Leopard and salivate a little - that'll keep you going ;-))
Granted there is still quite some time before final release but even with RC1 of XP it was a rock solid stable OS that I used as my full time OS and never had any issues whatsoever
quote:Yet another nice point - you think MS will sit still and let Leopard to chew its (MS's) private parts with impunity? I doubt that - MS will very likely release those nice sweet WinFS and other toys there were promising for years and integrate them in the next Vista release (I hope Leopard or whatever Mr. Jobs is up to isn't going to eat that for lunch - 'cause WinFS is the last hope for MS, really - DX10 won't count, too small a market it seems). So, in two years or maybe earlier you'll get those new sexy features you want, I believe... well, Apple could probably beat MS's ass here again, which is even more likely judging how well Apple devs were performing so far, so maybe you won't be interested in Vista at all - OS scene moves very fast - bang bang and u'r dead :) Especially now when Ballmer replaced BG - I'm worried, I don't quite trust Ballmer and Ozzie and others - ol' Bill was da man, not sure Vista survives w/o him when his archrival Jobs is only started to accelerate before real takeoff (Leopard?), but we'll see, we'll see...
The real problem however lies in the fact that I know I will move up to Vista at some point, but not because it's a better OS than XP but that I'll be hindered by continuing to use an older operating system.
quote:Oh, interesting, tell stupid us what is this "far better means of controlling permissions within an OS" instead of annoying ugly UAC, this must be something revolutionary and ingenious - maybe MS will pay you big bucks for that, who knows ;-)) Reply
There are far better means of controlling permissions within an OS that would have made a lot more sense that what we have now with UAC
ChronoReverse - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkYou tested RC1 of XP. Release Candidate 1.
This is BETA 2 of Vista. Maybe when they release RC1 of Vista you can compare again. Reply
Frallan - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWell i found 1 thing to be more interesting then the rest: Gaming Perfomance!!
That means that at least til the games I want to play are DX10 combined with the fact that DX10 games get better results im going to stax with my XP.
Sorry M$
/F Reply
Googer - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkThere are so many versions and the feature sets will confuse most of us.
Here is a screen shot from Paul Thurott's Win Super Site.
http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Googer/Windows_Vista_...">Windows Vista Versions. Reply
Ryan Smith - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkKeep in mind that that's an old chart. Small Business Edition no longer exists, and Professional is now Business Edition. Reply
Googer - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - linkThanks forthe update. Here is the now silghtly out of date chart but still has some usefull information.
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_edit...">http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_edit... Reply
slashbinslashbash - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkPage 8, "regulated" should be "relegated"
Also in the same sentence, "Superfetc.h" (which might not be a typo)
A 14-page article with 2 minor problems.... The quality ratio here at AT just kills DailyTech.... please impose AT quality control on DailyTech! Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkFixed - DT runs a lot of short, quick articles, and unfortunately that means they get more typos and errors. Anyway, since they are a separate entity, there's not much we can do. Feel free to post and tell them, though, but remember they're looking at probably 10X as many press releases as we do. LOL Reply
DerekWilson - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link1) vista is perfectly capable of being a stable light weight desktop system (with some quirks) at the beta 2 stage ... but try to do anything fast or power hungry and you'd be better off sticking with xp until vista is released. right now, at beta 2, vista is a neat toy. don't try to use it for everything.
2) after all the spit an polish dries, i will still prefer os x to vista
3) final verdict? same as it ever was -- i'll be running vista for games and linux for programming. and since i've recently been bitten by the switch bug, os x for everything else. Reply
shamgar03 - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link"3) final verdict? same as it ever was -- i'll be running vista for games and linux for programming. and since i've recently been bitten by the switch bug, os x for everything else."
Ditto Reply
darkdemyze - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkPersonally I'm excited to see where Vista is going. But I still myself in the same position as stated above ^ Reply
CSMR - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWhat has OS got to do with programming? Reply
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
quote:The guy's obviously coding some Linux stuff - do you want him to code stuff in cygwin on Vista? I don't think he's THIS kind of pervert, now is he? :)) Reply
What has OS got to do with programming?
fikimiki - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkAMD will replace Intel, Linux is going to replace Windows.
Microsoft is close to death, Bill is gone, Ballmer is crazy.
They are going to make this system usable with SP3 working on Athlon64 16000+ (which is just 4x4000) acting as a fast turtle.... Reply
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
quote:and Mesa 3D is going to replace DX10 - woohoo man keep this stuff coming, you're doin' great :)) Reply
Linux is going to replace Windows
stash - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linklol close to death, and yet they somehow find a way to ring up a billion (with a B) dollars in profit every single MONTH. Reply
Xenoid - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkBEWARE THE MAN WITH THE TINFOIL HAT
THE WORLD IS ENDING! Reply
darkdemyze - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linklol gg.
I think some people need to get a grip.. Reply
sprockkets - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link1. Nice fade into the desktop.
2. I'm sure they'll make new sounds and music, otherwise, it sadly is a new UI with and old annoying XP theme.
3. Still can't use anything other than .wav for sounds? Why?
4. Everything is all over the place, yet the classics are still there if you need it.
5. Finally, an all GUI installer. Welcome to the rest of the world haha.
6. Instead of asking for permission all the time, why not allow the control panel to open, then ask, then do not ask again when using anything in it?
7. Like mentioned, why make it so hard to hide the turn off button? Stupid.
8. It will take getting used to. Might as well switch to a Mac or even Linux, because you will be spending effort to get used to the differences. "Where is the start menu? No display properties? OK, it is personalize. Where did all the usual menus go? "
9. Funny, doing a file download in IE7 shows a nice progress bar, with the old as hell earth graphic with the flying piece of paper into the folder with the little red crash mark. Couldn't think of anything to replace it, or feeling nostolgic?
10. Major annoyances gone with fresh new ones.
11. Usual Microsoft behavior: Change for the sake of change (that damn power button!)
Other thoughts: Yeah, OSX officially runs on x86 hardware, as long as it has an Apple logo on it. We did it to not have to worry about drivers and such. Yeah, as if you don't both have the same Intel chipset to support.
Sometimes in Xp you cannot burn unless you are an Admin. I couldn't even run Asus Probe for whatever reason, and all it does is check for temps and such.
Is Expose the same as the new compiz and XGL?
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
quote:Windows driver support and OSX driver support are quite different, in Windows you usually need a driver CD or download, while with OSX there almost nothing to do - plug the thing and enjoy it - hence the need for certified hardware - you need someone in charge of hardware approval to get that level of smoothness with hardware & other stuff. Apple can't provide this level of service IF they can't stamp their logo on something, while Windows can't provide this level of service BECAUSE they can't stamp their logo - feel the difference here :)) There's no such thing as "certified Windows hardware that you can just pop in and enjoy" - put all the WHQL/XP/MS logos on a Chinese card from newegg - and you still have to download and setup drivers yourself - which sounds like an insult for any Mac guy, hehe ;-) Reply
OSX officially runs on x86 hardware, as long as it has an Apple logo on it. We did it to not have to worry about drivers and such. Yeah, as if you don't both have the same Intel chipset to support.
Locutus465 - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkNot neccessarly... Hell, at work we started using signature pad software in conjunction with an active x control to provide digital signature functionality... I ordered a Topaz signature pad, it got to the office, plugged it in the USB and wouldn't you know it.... Windows found the device right away and it worked. To be fair, microsoft supports a huge number of the box... They just can't support all of it... Heck, I didn't even *need* to install any system drivers with vista, it found all my nForce4 devices and Gefore 7800GT just fine... I chose to becaues I'm guessing nVidia probably did a better job with thier drivers than microsoft did with their generic ones. Reply
Pirks - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
quote:This is what I'm talking about - noone can support everything out there out of the box but a MANAGEABLE subset of hardware, like most popular video/audio/TV/RAID and other cards - that's a piece of cake, and now you are right, Vista will support a lot out of the box but LATER maybe in a year or two a lot of new devices start to appear on the market that Vista will not support out of the box, and the problem is NOBODY cares whether user has to download a driver or something, nobody cares about setting up some automatic update site driven by MS and maybe some other big PC vendors together (joint MS/newegg site would be ubermegacool!) which says "IF YOU GET CERTIFIED HARDWARE FROM US IT'LL WORK MAC-STYLE" meaning that if this card has a special logo - you know you pop it in and nothing else - Windows automatically locates driver online and downloads/installs it - Mac OS X style. Just forget about this thing unless you get a Mac - somehow MS and other can't realize many users would love such a feature - very nice choice - if you're a pro - go to newegg and get nice cheap stuff and install it yourself, but if you're a noob - here's your WinHardware.com, get there, choose a card, order it, pop it in and just FORGET about everything else - no drivers no other sh1t to worry about - well, all AT/DT readers won't care about that, I know, but for noobs/general public I think that's a boon, all my Mac owning buddies LOVE that feature of Macs - hence it's a good idea to adopt something similar for Windows, don't you agree? Reply
To be fair, microsoft supports a huge number out of the box. They just can't support all of it.
Locutus465 - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - linkWhat you don't seem to realize is that Windows has such a feature called Windows update. Microsoft does continuously update their in house set of available drivers. The main thing is that Microsoft tends not to do as good a job optimising drivers for *performance*. What microsoft want's are good solid drivers that don't crash your system, as far as their conserned performance is a distant second. This is why most users in the know specifically tell Windows *not* to locate a driver for their new hardware (unless it's something simple like a USB/Firewire harddrive etc) and proceed to download drivers from the hardware manufacturers website. Reply
Pirks - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - link
quote:Ever tried to install Audigy 2 or X-Fi on XP? Ever tried to pop in Nomad Zen in 2002 or so... rings any bells? Or not?
Windows has such a feature called Windows update
Well, if not, here's an explanation for you - your Windows Update is just this - purely WINDOWS update, and nothing more - the problem is - Windows Update is not concerned with a lot of new hardware coming out (Nomad Zen back in 2002, X-Fi, many other examples), there's not even an idea of certifying the new piece of hardware and submitting drivers to Microsoft where they are put online with WHQL logo on them. See the difference? In Macs it's a rule - got a new fresh driver for Mac OS X for your card? Submit it to Apple NOW! In Windows? Who cares about this in Windows? Windows PC makers do not care whether their customer can or can not install drivers - here's your PC, bye now. You wanna install X-Fi? Well, you're on your own. Get a nerd or something. Yeah, this works, but why not to go one step further and do it like this - Creative makes new flashy X-Fi - IMMEDIATELY submits drivers to MS - MS quickly tests them and in a week or two there you go - you pop your new expensive X-Fi in your PC and MAGICCC!!! PC GOES ONLINE AND DOWNLOADS/INSTALLS DRIVERS ITSELF! Why? Because X-Fi has this logo "Just Works in XP". You wanna get third party hi-perf drivers and apps/tuning utils? No problemo - go get 'em. But if you're a noob and dont' know what a driver is - this is a boon.
So far no enthusiast understood me when I mentioned this idea - and this is normal - enthusiasts do not need this kind of service. What is more interesting is why a major Home PC brand still doesn't have this kind of service. My guess this is because quality Home PCs come pre-assembled with all the drivers, but still - this service is an interesting approach to clone from Apple.
After all Vista cloned a lot from Tiger - why not clone other things from Apple like this service?
Will it hurt anyone?
Or will it make PCs more noob friendly and hence better competitors for Macs which constantly boast this "Just works" attitude? I mean this is nothing major, this is just a little service - but this Dashboard and Expose and other things - they are also little services, if you think about it. Is Vista actively cloning this stuff? Sure it is, everybody loves eye-candy, Spotlight and stuff like that - so why would anyone NOT like this additional automatic hardware configuration service?
I feel this is a thing of the future, and should appear sooner or later.
Any other opinions on that? Reply
Locutus465 - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - linkYes, but perhaps what you're missing is Microsoft will update their own in house drivers for hardware they consider essential to Windows functioning properly. The fact that microsoft doesn't try to control the PC market in the way Apple controls the Mac market has made the PC significantly more cost effective than Apples platform, while still allowing for a very high degree of innovation. The IBM PC has always been about economics, which is why no one (including IBM) could control it the way in which Apple controls the Mac platform. So apparently the answer to your question is yes and no.
Yeah, there does need to be a service to update driver critical to the functioning of modern PC's automatically (in Microsoft's case, Windows Update). But no, in order to retain the economic's of the IBM clone market, there needs to be no such Apple like control over the market.. Reply
Pirks - Sunday, June 18, 2006 - link
quote:Excellent point - total Apple-like control of the hardware turns PC into Mac, which is obviously not what users need and want (excluding zealots, of course). However, my point was not about turning PC into Mac by introducing total hardware control over every PC out there, Apple-style, it was rather about creating a special BRAND of PC, obviously a Vista-based PC, which should retain best features of Vista and Mac from the point of view of a noob. This means: a Vista PC which has similar subset of applications as OS X Tiger, and which also behaves like a Mac when you pop a certified piece of hardware into it - it goes online and downloads/installs drivers quietly and user just enjoys the device without any thinking - it "just works".
But no, in order to retain the economic's of the IBM clone market, there needs to be no such Apple like control over the market.
Naturally, there is no need at all to convert all PCs to that ideology, one brand would be enough. Who is the best candidate for that? Probably an alliance between Dell and MS, or something similar.
I heard a lot of talk about Microsoft's iPod Killa coming out soon, not sure these aren't just baseless rumors but... let's imagine for a sec MS is going to try and kick Apple a little in DAP market - how'd they do that? Obviously by cloning and amplifying strengths of iPod. What are these? Tight integration and control of course, especially on Macs - on Mac the OS itself plus iTunes/iPod/iTMS work seamlessly together. Maybe MS can leverage some of that by creating its own PC brand (together with Dell would be the best) so that when there's someone thinking about bying a Mac just because it's so noob friendly, he/she can reconsider - hey, wait, don't buy a Mac - see, there's similar MS PC, which also accepts a subset of certified hardware, just like Mac and because of that is as easy and stable as a Mac - this is its strength, this is why it can compete with Macs on their turf.
In other words, if Apple pushes personal computers as easy to use, utility devices, and if MS also kind of succeded with its console (which is also utility device - plug and enjoy) then, maybe, it's time to attack CORE Apple market - those utility PCs called Macs. MS has attacked Sony market with game console - why not attacking Apple market at some point by creating similar PC clone of Mac, which is also controlled by one company and hence easy and stable etc.
Seems like a viable business idea to me, well meybe not at this point in time, maybe we should wait till Apple share of US home computer market grows to, say, 10 or 20% - but EVENTUALLY MS might be just FORCED to go Apple way - tight control over hardware and such - while leaving current free PC market intact of course - as I said it should be just another PC brand, nothing more. Reply
stash - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link
6. Instead of asking for permission all the time, why not allow the control panel to open, then ask, then do not ask again when using anything in it?
Because that is a nice gaping vulnerability.
7. Like mentioned, why make it so hard to hide the turn off button? Stupid.
If you notice, there are two large buttons (sleep and lock) and a menu containing restart, logoff, shutdown, hibernate, etc. Sleep is a faster and more efficient method to shut off a computer, since it combines standby with hibernation. So machines will shut down much faster and startup nearly instantaneously, right where you left them. They will also use less power, since resuming from sleep uses far less power than a cold boot.
11. Usual Microsoft behavior: Change for the sake of change (that damn power button!)
This is not MS's behavior at all. All of these things are tested extensively in useability studies by thousands of (non-Microsoft) users. The UX and UI changes in Vista are a result of these studies, not some artibrary decision. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkSleep and standby are not "more efficient" as they continue to draw power. (If fact, even shutting down will still leave the PC drawing 5-10W on most desktops.) The best way to totally shut off a computer is to shut down Windows and unplug the PC (or turn off the PSU switch). If by more efficient you mean that it starts up faster, then yes, but that's really more convenient, not more efficient. Reply
Locutus465 - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkSo far, sleep doesn't start up my computer any faster than a cold boot with vista. In fact... Some times it doesn't start up my computer at all! I do like the general idea that you can put your computer into a sleep mode and still have it continue downloading data etc. Hopefully MS will get this worked out. Reply
stash - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkSleep is more effecient in the long run. Shutting down and doing a cold boot every day uses a lot more electricity than sleep. When the machine is in sleep, it uses a fraction of a single watt. Yes, this is obviously more than zero (completely off), but when you cold boot a system, it uses many times more power.
As a side benefit, you get back to where you left off almost instantly because sleep combines standby with hibernation. Reply
Griswold - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkOh so wrong. Why would a cold boot use more power? Because the HDDs spin up? Going from sleep to full on does the same. Because the OS has to be loaded from the HDD? Sleep mode also writes to disk. And thats actually it. This is a computer, not an engine that uses more fuel at startup than when it runs. Reply
stash - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWhen you can resume from sleep in a few seconds compared to 45-60 seconds from a cold boot, then yes, a cold boot uses much more power. Reply
johnsonx - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkStash, your logic is faulty. Please give up.
stash - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWhy should I give up? How is my logic faulty. Reply
smitty3268 - Friday, June 16, 2006 - link<I>Is Expose the same as the new compiz and XGL?</I>
No, that is more like the Aero interface or OSX's Quartz Extreme. Expose lets you hit a button and then automatically scales and moves every window so that you can see them all and pick out which program you want to use. Think of it as a replacement for ALT-TAB. There is a plugin in compiz that does the same thing. Reply
Locutus465 - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkNot sure what your issues with 3D were, I only skimmed the artical so I'm sure which video card you used... But it's possible that if you're using ATI you experienced problems due to their drivers. I've seen many more ATI issues in the MS groups than nVida. My 7800GT has no problem with 1600x1200 (full 3d acceloration, no apparent crashing). My only concern wth Vista 64 is drivers... As of right now there's no driver avaailable for the Promies Ultra100TX2 controller card which is a huge issue for me as I have my secondary drive (used to store installers and as my page file drive in XP). I hope MS manages to convince to support 64b as well as 32b is supported. When I do upgrade to Vista, it will be to 64b. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkPage 10: using 6800 Ultra card.
The problem is both with drivers (64-bit are still being worked on), the OS (still being worked on), and resource requierments are increased under 64-bit mode. Compatibility with various hardware is already worse with Vista, but 64-bit mode is even worse still. Can they fix it before shipping? Hopefully, and one way or another we're going 64-bit in the future.
It could be that other test systems would be more or less stable, but with a preview of Vista Beta 2 that's really too much extra work. The article was already over 12000 words, so trying it out on five other platforms would make this monolithic task even more daunting. The bottom line is that Vista is still interesting, but it's definitely not ready for release. There's a good reason it has been delayed until 2007, just like the XP x64 delays in the past. Reply
DerekWilson - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWe have tested Vista with both ATI and NVIDIA drivers and see similar issues between the two. While the numbers were gathered under NVIDIA hardware, we are confident that the same patterns would emerge with ATI at this point in time. Reply
Locutus465 - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkWell, weird... I've had my share of beta issues but thus far Glass + 3D acceleration hasn't been one of them. I have noticed that installing QuickTime 7 on Vista (at least in my case) renders Vista Ultimite 64 unbootable. Reply
rqle - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkdont really need bad memory module, overclock the memory just a tad bit to give errors while keeping the cpu clock constant or known stable clock. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkThat still only works if the memory fails. Plenty of DIMMs can handle moderate overclocks. Anyway, it's not a huge deal I don't think - something that can sometimes prove useful if you're experiencing instabilities and think the RAM is the cause, but even then I've had DIMMs fail MemTest86 when it turned out the be a motherboard issue... or simply bad timings in the BIOS. Reply
PrinceGaz - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - linkErm, no. Just overclock and/or use tighter-timings on a known good module beyond the point at which it is 100% stable. It might still seem okay in general usage but Memtest86 will spot problems with it. Now see if Vista's memory tester also spots problems with it. Pretty straightforward to test. Reply
xFlankerx - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkI love how I was browsing the website, and I just refresh the page, and there's a brand new article there...simply amazing. Reply
xFlankerx - Friday, June 16, 2006 - linkMasterful piece of work though. Excellent Job. Reply