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Intel's Roadmap: Ivy Bridge, Panther Point, and SSDsby Kristian Vättö on 5/6/2011 1:05 AM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
- SSDs
- Intel
- roadmap
- Ivy Bridge
- Panther Point
74 Comments
Back to Article
haplo602 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI'd expect spelling mistakes on a tech site, but writing that a DX11 GPU will only support OGL 3.1 is seriously wrong. But OpenCL 10.1 ?? You expect Ivy Bridge in 10 years or what ? Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkRelax, it's an extra 0. I've fixed the typo. As for OpenGL support, the real issue there is going to be drivers, which is something Intel has never really focused on in their IGPs. Sandy Bridge does fine in DX games (relatively speaking), but I know of at least a couple OpenGL titles where performance is pathetic. I'm not entirely sure where Kristian got the OpenGL/OpenCL support information, though, so I've added "(?)" to the areas where we're not certain of specs. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkOpenGL and OpenCL were reported by a German site who leaked quite a lot of Sandy Bridge data too which turned out to be right IIRC. Anand mentioned 16 EUs in IB already in the SB review and I also think he mentioned something about the OpenCL support. The same site is also reporting that the IB IGP will come in flavors of 6 and 16 EUs. Reply
futrtrubl - Saturday, May 07, 2011 - linkNow it just needs to be fixed in the text too. 2nd paragraph after the table. Reply
Shane1 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkWhat the heck is your problem? It was a simple typo, if you had any clue what the correct versions were you could have politely replied that it was wrong and what the correct terminology would be. I heard MS is bringing back Clippy, but I hope he is not built to be as much as an @$$ as you. Reply
haplo602 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linktypo ? typo would be 11 (a missing .) but 10.1 implies 1.01. Current OpenCL is 1.1, I guess Intel would know better than to design future products to implement old technologies. Reply
NARC4457 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIt was a simple mistake, you don't have to be a douche about it. Reply
andymcca - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkOh lord! They hit an extra key on the number pad! What's next? Outright lies? I, for one, will never voluntarily read this top-notch source of information again. In fact I think I see an angry mob forming!
(That was sarcasm, you crazy person.) Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThe mob is forming, but we're massing in front of haplo602's house, not Kristian's. Reply
Megatomic - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkHaha, this is like the nitpicking they do to the writers over at DailyTech. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThe difference is that some of the writers at DT regularly make major gaffe's not just silly typos. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIt is long journey to come all the way to Finland so I doubt anyone would voluntarily travel here anyway :D Reply
asuglax - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI know some Sandy Bridge processors already support up to DDR3-1600. The i7-2820QM in my laptop does. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkUnofficially, yes, but official support is supposed to be DDR3-1333. Reply
asuglax - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIntel has it listed as such here: http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=52227&pro... Reply
AstroGuardian - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkWhat are all these official-unofficial BS? Either it supports 1600 or not? Why complicating simple things? Reply
Stahn Aileron - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkProbably Intel not wanting people to whine and complain when they buy DDR3-1333 that's not running at the DDR3-1600 rated speed the memory controller is spec'ed at. DDR3-1600, as far as I recall, is still considered somewhat in the upper "power user/enthusiast" realm compared to mainstream DDR3-1066 and DDR3-1333 SDRAM.
TL;DR = lowest common denominator? Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThe official value has to work in a 100F room with the system clogged in dirt. Our systems are much less hostile environments so we can push the parts harder.
Intel also doesn't want to toss the 1 or 2% of chips with the poorest IMCs when a few hundred extra MHz has almost no impact on normal use. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkSo that's somewhat humorous: laptop chips have DDR3-1600 support with SNB, but desktop parts like the 2600K don't. Of course, laptop RAM tends to be less power hungry in the first place which might be part of it. Anyway, the *desktop* Ivy Bridge will get official DDR3-1600 support, which is something desktop Sandy Bridge doesn't have. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI didn't realize it was different for mobile systems. It could also be that 99% of laptops only have room for 1 dimm/channel which makes the bus signaling cleaner. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkAh, that could be the reason. I know some laptops that will sell you DDR3-1600, but only if you don't use four DIMMs (look at the mobile workstations from Dell and HP). Still, it's odd considering enthusiasts have run far higher than DDR3-1600 speeds. Oh well. Reply
dagamer34 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIt'll be interesting to see what Intel does with the added die space that 3D manufacturing gives them. Already, the largest singular part of SNB is the GPU, dwarfing the size of any individual CPU core. Hopefully we'll get something that's better than their previous offerings. Reply
duploxxx - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkprobably the GPU performance will enhance a lot, lets hope they get into the range of basic gaming gpu, but the main problem is that by the time that IVY arrives the AMD APU Fusion series will also have launched there second gen, and it is known already that this will be much more powerfull. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIt's not just that, by the time IB has launched TSMC should have it's 28nm process working which means that AMD/nVidia's discrete cards will be twice as fast (twice the transistor density) leaving the IGPs back in the dust again.
SB's IGP wouldn't look as good as it did if TSMC's 32 nm process hadn't been scrapped giving intel a half node advantage. They'll have the same with IB, but only going from 12 to 16 EUs makes it likely they're using a big chunk of the gain to cut costs instead of boosting performance. Reply
7Enigma - Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - linkIt doesn't matter how fast IGP's are compared to discrete graphics (it never has been). What matters is if the IGP allows for playable framerates at common desktop/notebook resolutions (we're talking 1280X1024 19" and similar widescreen resolutions). People with 1080p and higher resolutions won't be gaming on these, the other 95% of people that go to Best Buy and Dell to get a system will be.
And we need these "awesome" IGP's now. They maintain the bottom teir graphics that development houses still have to cater too (and consoles). Once those graphics capabilities become "good enough" for moderate resolutions the game makers can finally start cranking up the graphics quality and giving these new cards a workout.
I've never gamed on an IGP and never plan too, but I understand just how important they are to us gamers. Reply
brokenbeaker - Saturday, May 07, 2011 - link3D doesn't give them extra spece, it's the process shrink that does that. 3D gives them higher "on" current and less leakage current. Reply
Drazick - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkWhen Intel get back to the SSD Controllers business?
Will we see Intel Based Controller SSD this year?
Thanks. Reply
imaheadcase - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThat is the one everyone wants, less power/cheaper.. Reply
Marlin1975 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkLet me guess, those that bought X67/8 chipsets will have to buy another board to use IB?
Not that intel would ever do that. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkX67/68 do not exist. Z68 will come out soon, and like P67/H67 and a few others we mention, they will support Ivy Bridge with the appropriate firmware/BIOS updates. (That will be more a factor of the motherboard manufacturers taking time to update the firmware than anything.) X58 will be replaced by X79, which as we noted in an earlier article is a completely different socket. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linklooks like it's not going quite as fast as was expected; prior rumors had it stripped from the x79 chip too.
OTOH if filling in all the expansion slots in an ATX board would've been tricky with x79, it's going to be even worse for enthusiast z7x boards unless the number of lanes on the southbridge is increased, especially if DMI isn't given a boost to allow the SB lanes to run at 3.0 speeds as well. 2x gb nics, and 3rd party audio will take 3 lanes. Additional usb3 and sata 6gb controllers will take 1 each. That leaves at most 3 SB lanes to make 1x slots. The situation is worse if the board makers insist on adding legacy firewire or pata ports. Thunderbolt ports will IIRC eat a PCIe lane each as well. I suspect 4 to 8 lane pcie bridge chips (or possibly PCIe to PCI bridge chips) will end up being fairly common on these boards. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkDo the current 6-series chipsets connect to the CPU with a 20Gbps DMI link, which isn't even enough for all the potential peripherals if they're all maxed out, but in practice that almost never happens.
8x PCIe 2.0 lanes = 40Gbps
2x SATA 6Gbps = 12Gbps
4x SATA 3Gbps = 12Gbps
14x USB 2.0 = 6.72Gbps
Gigabit Ethernet = 1Gbps
Total Potential = 71.72Gbps!
I believe the 7-series is still using DMI 2.0, so it remains at 20Gbps, but now the total potential bandwidth for all ports is:
8x PCIe 2.0 lanes = 40Gbps
4x USB 3.0 = 19.2Gbps
2x SATA 6Gbps = 12Gbps
4x SATA 3Gbps = 12Gbps
10x USB 2.0 = 4.8Gbps
Gigabit Ethernet = 1Gbps
Total Potential = 89Gbps
Realistically, the SATA ports are pretty much never going to all be 100% utilized at the same time, and the same goes for the PCIe ports and USB ports. It's possible Intel will tweak the DMI interface to boost bandwidth as well, which could easily accommodate the additional bandwidth heavy devices. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI was looking at the number of devices to connect, not total bandwidth (pcie to pci or pcie-pcie (more lanes) bridge chips don't help with that.
My observation is that after you connect all the devices to the PCIe bus that need to be connected, you don't have enough lanes left to fill out all 7 slots on an enthusiast level full atx board. Depending on the chipset you have anywhere between 1 and 3 slots off the CPU, and at most 3 1x slots off the southbridge. With thunderbolt potentially eating a 6th, and a few of the 6x series boards having enough USB3 controllers to have 8 or 10 USB3 ports, it's entirely possible to use up all of the southbridge's 8 lanes just on onboard controllers. The main advantage I see in potentially running the SB lanes at PCIe3 speeds isn't total bandwidth which isn't likely to be saturated; but allowing board makers to use 4xUSB,3 4x SATA6GB, or 2x GB nic controllers to get their port inflation numbers up while only consuming a single PCIe lane instead of 2. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThat or they should bump the number of lanes on the southbridge from 8 to 12ish to allow connecting as many low average bandwidth devices as they could when the PCI controller was still available. IIRC the controller on Intel's current desktop boards supports 5 PCI devices. Reply
Ammaross - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIf you remember, current P67 motherboards share PCIe lanes. If you drop a card in the bottom PCIe gfx 4x slot, it disables some on-board things (firewire, some USB headers, etc). In essence, the lanes are shared amongst the devices already. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI wasn't aware of anything like that, I assume the disabled headers are USB3 since there's no reason to disable any of the USB2 ports. The firewire port surprises me though, I'd always assumed it would have been stuck on the legacy PCI bus since there's plenty of capacity there and no need for the higher speeds of PCIe. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkWhile you're probably right about it not seeing much traction in the enthusiast market, assuming it trickles down to the mobile chipset as well, support for a third monitor would be really nice for my work laptop. Reply
iwod - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThis basically are the rumors we have heard from other places summed up here. Of coz being Anandtech this means the rumors are realistic.
The EU are properly a lot different to current SandyBridge, We expect to have double the Gfx Performance from Ivy Bridge. If any of the previous Intel slide are to be trusted. 22nm would also allow much higher Clock Speed for GPU part.
I hope Anandtech could find out whether Ivy Bridge have FMA.
$100 for a 20GB SLC SSD is really expensive, compare to the previous rumors of 40 - 50 USD. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIvy Bridge IGP will only have 16 EUs which is only 33% more than what SB has. Like Anand mentioned in the SB review, it unfortunately looks unlikely that the IB IGP would be twice as fast, which is a shame.
In the original version, I said the "Larsen Creek" SSD will be priced at around 50$ like the rumors have suggested but apparently Jarred edited that. Of course it is safer to say 100$ and then be happily surprised when it turns out to be 50$ instead of getting those angry comments when it turned out to be 100$ instead of 50$. Reply
iwod - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkMy thought is that these "Next Gen EU " would be completely different to current EU, that is why it is not fair to compare EU numbers to performance.
And if this new EU runs 33% faster per clock, and runs at 33% higher clock while having 33% more EU then previous EU, should land us at 100% performance increase.
Of coz, Hardware dont matter much on GPU, not at all. It is software, drivers that makes ALL the difference. As we have seen with S3. Nvidia has double the Software Engineering compare to hardware working on it. And if Intel continue the way it is, their GPU hardware will never get the respect they deserve.
I am looking forward to the Larsen Creek SSD. Reply
fic2 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI think Intel GPUs get pretty much the respect they deserve. As long as they keep crippling the mainstream parts by putting in crap like HD2000 they don't deserve any respect. The only decent GPU they have is the HD3000 in the 'k' series which will never be used by the people that buy 'k' series parts (ok, 1% might). Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkYeah, but all of the mobile chips pretty much get HD 3000, and they're the place you're more likely to use the IGP. Maybe Ivy Bridge will be better in this respect; guess we'll wait and see. Reply
ssj4Gogeta - Sunday, May 08, 2011 - linkActually in that case it will be 1.33*1.33*1.33=2.35 times faster. Reply
7Enigma - Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - linkOh if only math worked that way in real life. :) Reply
Conficio - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkKristian,
thanks for an article full of details. However, I find this article harder to read than necessary. Because it is peppered with abbreviations that I'm not familiar with. They might be daily use for an Intel enthisiast but they have not yet reached the mainstream.
May I suggest AnandTech adds to their awesome Benches a Glossary and links the first use (in an article) of any name or abreviation to a short definition page with a list of serach results for the term (good Google juice if you knwo what I mean). That would make it so much easier to brush up on a term the reader is not familiar with.
Alternatively (or in addition) spell out the names of technologies with appreviations at theri first use, such as S... R... T ... (SRT) so that one can form a mental word for the appreviation and better understand what is said.
That said, keep up the good work. One wants to read these articles and understand in detail as opposed to skimming just for buzz words and chatter (slashdot I'm looking at you).
P.S.: The formatting of tables, etc. often does not scale with enlarging the font, but that is for another post. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThanks for the feedback. I'm still learning and sometimes it's just hard to use the full name instead of the abbreviation, mainly because in the forums I go everyone uses abbreviations.
While I don't want to blame Jarred for this, in the original version at least the SRT was first mentioned as Smart Response Technology (SRT) so people get the idea of what the SRT means. In the original version, there is also info on the Z68 and SRT in general but due to the NDA, we couldn't publish it so that might have added confusion since some parts of the other areas of the article referred to that.
If you really want to be helpful, send me an email (click my name above the article) and give me more examples of the cases where you wish that the abbreviation should be explained more clearly :-) Reply
HilbertSpace - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI also did a google search for "Intel SRT" (didn't know what it was) and got to Intel's site that talks about "System Recovery Technology" - same acronym two different things... Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkJust to clarify, we are under NDA on Smart Response Technology until Z68 launches, at which point Anand will have a full explanation as well as performance results. That also takes care of the Larsen Creek SSD, so I'm as interested as the next guy to see what it will do for performance. Basically, I had to cut a whole page from the review where Kristian discussed SRT and Z68 features, but we'll have the official launch soon enough to fill in the gaps. :-) Reply
Conficio - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThis roadmap screams to me that Intel does not support Thunderbolt for non Apple systems.
I'd have expected the next set of chipsets to support it for display and other purposes. Instead we see USB 3.0 accross teh board. Not that that is bad, but the lack of Thunderbolt in all of 6 new chipsets is really sendign a message (It's Apple only technology) despite all the statements otherwise. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThunderboilt is just a combination displayport/PCIe lane in a single plug. I don't see any reason why it would need special chipset support. Reply
AnnonymousCoward - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThunderbolt is dumb. Many systems get 1 port. That gets used when you plug in your display via DisplayPort, and there it goes completely unused! Even if you have a spare port and find something to plug into it, it won't be any faster than USB3 would be. So what's the point?
I think Apple wanted it since it was "cool, light!" for their marketing, and then engineering common-sense managed to win, since metal wires are cheaper. Intel likes it since they get to sell boatloads of Intel-only controllers. USB3 makes more sense in many ways. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, May 07, 2011 - linkThunderbolt supports daisy-chaining so you can connect up to 7 devices into one port. I'm pretty sure most of the TB devices will support DC when they start rolling out. Plus, you can always get a hub if you have devices that don't support.
Moreover, there are currently two computers from Apple that have TB so you can't conclude that most systems in the future will be stuck with one port. The 27" already has two BTW. Reply
B3an - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkCan someone answer these questions for me? would appreciate it.
Will X79 support Ivy Bridge CPU's?
And if so... then will Ivy Bridge CPU's be available for X79 at around the same time as IB CPU's for the lower platforms or will the high end be left out again? Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkNo. X79 will be for Sandy Bridge-E, which uses socket LGA2011. There's a schism between the ultra-high-end enthusiast platforms and the "mainstream enthusiast" platforms, which is a continuation of the X58 and P55 split. The problem is that where X58 was clearly superior to P55 platforms in most performance metrics, X58 vs. P67 suddenly didn't look so compelling. We'll eventually get the "fix" for that in Q3/Q4 when SNB-E launches, but just like X58 vs. P67 we'll have X79 vs. Z77 in 1H'2012 to make things difficult. Reply
B3an - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThanks Jarred.
So the X79 platform will have no CPU upgrade path at all? It will ONLY ever take SNB-E CPU's? Being as Ivy Bridge is just a "tick" and not a new architecture i would have thought X79 would get a IB CPU for LGA2011 that just needs a BIOS update. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIIRC some of the leaked intel roadmaps have IB based LGA2011 chips coming out in late 2012, about a year after the SB ones. Reply
Pneumothorax - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI'd still be wary of the crap that Intel did to us 1366 users. Promising an 'affordable' 6 core upgrade, but never releasing a chip coming even close to $500. That's what happens when AMD can't compete. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkWell, there is i7-970 at 583$ but yeah, I have to agree with you. Sandy Bridge runs circles around Gulftown and is much cheaper. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIsn't that a fairly recent price drop? IIRC before SB launched the only hexes they offered were in the $900ish range. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkYeah, i7-970 was 880$ when it was launched in July last year (before that there was only 999$ 980X). It was dropped to 583$ when i7-990X was launched in February IIRC. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkThat would make sense. It looks like Intel has switched their product release cycles. Before, it was high-end chips first and then mainstream chips later on (at least this was the case with Nehalem, I'm too lazy today to check anything older that that :D). Now it is the vice versa. Mainstream chips in H1 and high-end/enterprise in H2.
This make sense though since enterprise level stuff is more complex and thus needs more time and money to be designed, tested etc. Reply
DanNeely - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkIt does make sense in some ways, the other half though is that there're lots of people who bought 2500/2600K systems that probably would've bought LGA2011 quads at the higher margins if the high end part launched first. Reply
Mr Perfect - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkLets say someone drops an Ivy Bridge CPU in an existing 6 series motherboard, could it run at DDR3-1600 or only at 1333? Technically, the memory controller is in the CPU die, so it sounds reasonable to say it would do 1600. On the other hand though, the motherboard would have to be able to handle the speed and would doubtlessly have some sort of UEFI settings related to it. Any thoughts here? Reply
don_k - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkPersonally I want to see confirmation that Ivy Bridge will be on X79 (in good time) otherwise there would be no hesitation. But I forsee a dead end for X79 like with X58 and I just don't like it. If IB won't be on X79 quickly enough and IB turns out to be quite a bit faster at a smaller process.. but that means waiting for IB. Bloody hell Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, May 07, 2011 - linkDon't expect LGA 2011 Ivy Bridges before H2 2012. SB-E is Q4'11 so Intel won't release IB-E in Q1'12. Reply
don_k - Saturday, May 07, 2011 - linkYup, that's what I gathered. Frankly I don't see any point in LGA 2011 if, as I expect, IB is much faster than SB at the same clock speeds. You then get to wait for IB while the supposedly more 'mainstream' platform is faster than the high-end platform. Reply
Kristian Vättö - Saturday, May 07, 2011 - linkI would say the primary market for LGA 2011 parts is the enterprise market. The mainstream products (LGA 1155) lack many necessary features (PCIe lanes, ECC, DP setups...) that are required by servers and higher-end workstations. While there is Xeon E3-1200 lineup, it does not offer more than four cores and there is no option for DP setup either.
For enterprises, the raw CPU performance is not always the number one concern. Fast I/O options are usually crucial and the 16 PCIe 2.0 lanes provided by mainstream SB may not be enough for those needs. In most cases, the performance per watt is also essential, especially in servers which are online 24/7. That is why Xeon lineups often offer low-power options.
From consumer's standpoint, SB-E may look like it makes no sense but in the end, it is not really aimed at them. There will be few CPUs for enthusiasts but other than that, it's solely Xeons. Reply
Casper42 - Friday, May 06, 2011 - linkI really wanna slap someone over at Intel in their Marketing Dept.
Why isnt this new chipset simply the X69?
did all the engineer's giggle too much or do they somehow think the SB-E NB/PCH is magically next generation because its taking so long to release.
If you're not including USB3 or LightPeak, it doesn't deserve to be a new generation.
Its bad enough there will be 4 different sockets for Servers next year, and I'm sure at least a dozen procs per socket (except maybe on the ultra high end, half dozen there more likely) Reply
Kristian Vättö - Sunday, May 08, 2011 - linkAccording to VR-Zone, 20GB "Larsen Creek" SSD will be 119$. 40GB X25-M/310 series is cheaper than that! Reply
DanaG - Sunday, May 08, 2011 - linkAnyone know if the Ivy Bridge IGP is supposed to support 120Hz desktop? I don't expect true stereoscopic 3D on it, but it'd be nice for a 3D laptop to not switch from 120 to 60 when running on IGP.
120Hz would also be helpful for playing 24FPS blu-ray. Reply
dgingeri - Monday, May 09, 2011 - link"A final interesting point for many users is that Ivy Bridge is pin compatible with Sandy Bridge, and it will work on current LGA1155 motherboards with the appropriate chipset and a firmware and BIOS update (H61, H67, P67, and Z68 are capable of support IB). Intel will also launch new 7-series chipsets, which we'll get into below."
Yeah, I believe it when I see it. They said the same thing with the 915/925 chipsets, but when it came down to it, they changed the VRM requirements and controls and a new motherboard was required for Core 2 chips anyway. I bet they do the same thing.
On the other side of the fence, I have a Nvidia Nforce 590SLi board (socket AM2) that supports even the newest 6 core chips with only a bios upgrade, if I want to replace it. I recently upgraded it from the Athlon 64 6400+ chip (3.2GHz with no overclocking potential and 125W power consumption) to a Athlon II X2 260 (3.2GHz, overclockable to 3.7GHz, and only 65W power usage) for $70. It doesn't sound like an upgrade, but the power savings alone will pay for it in less than 6 months, considering its my file server.
Intel does have a big history of making people upgrade an entire platform to upgrade. I don't expect them to change that. Reply
Kakkoii - Thursday, June 09, 2011 - linkYou guys are under NDA about Z68 until next week, yet there's already a bunch of information available on computer parts websites for Z68 motherboard pre-orders XD
Kinda funny.. Reply
Kakkoii - Thursday, June 09, 2011 - linkI probably should have looked at AnandTech's Motherboard section before posting this comment. lol. Reply
karl96 - Wednesday, March 28, 2012 - linkappart from what i have seen looks it nice but why does nt intel take out the integrate hd graphics in 3 type of processors and make them hexacore with hyperthreating. i mean sb is extremely powerfull and ivy bridge wil be more powerfull and more efficient. and for me it does not make that much sense such powerull procesoors and igpu? Reply


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An oil rig in the Gulf of Mexico caught fire after an explosion Friday, leaving two people dead and two missing, KPRC-TV in Houston reported.
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text: PORTLAND, Ore. ( TheStreet) -- Why should Valentine's Day chocolate only come in boxes?Don't have a good answer for that one, do you? There's no real reason shoppers have to settle for a generic red heart or some box of pre-assorted selections from the local CVS ( CVS) or Walgreens ( WAG) and no real argument against giving a beer-loving valentine the best of both worlds. According to a survey by the National Retail Federation, 51% of Valentine's Day shoppers intend to pick up some chocolate for their loved one this holiday season. Consumers told the NRF they intend to spend an average of $22.81 on chocolates, bringing total Valentine's Day chocolate and candy spending up to $1.6 billion this year. Considering overall chocolate sales hit $12.9 billion in 2009, according to the Census Bureau, Valentine's Day is a huge portion of the annual chocolate take. Meanwhile, research organization Mintel says sales of craft beer have more than doubled since 2007, to $12 billion last year. While the Beer Institute notes that those gains came at the expense of large brewers that lost sales as working- and middle-class consumers cut back during the recession, small brewers have spent the past half-decade or so expanding market share and sweetening up the beer supply. That includes mixing the occasional chocolate flavors into their brews, and nowhere is that more visible than in chocolate stouts and porters. While usually so named because of the brewer's use of dark roasted chocolate malt, occasionally sweeter chocolate flavoring and even chocolate nibs are used in the brewing process to make the beer slightly sweeter or as flavorful as drinking chocolate. For those who'd prefer a heart-shaped 10-pack to a box of truffles, we've compiled the following list of 10 great chocolate porters and stouts. It's by no means comprehensive, but it's a good starting point for building a Valentine's Day assortment for your special, beer-loving someone:


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Revenge of the Nerd
PULLING UP ONTO A PARTIALLY buried picket, Colin Haley watched in horror as his sole piece of pro—another picket, at his feet—slid out of the snow, loosened only by the movement of his rope. Instinctively, Haley grabbed the piece as it started to fall and then placed it above his head in a desperate aid move. Haley was leading the last snow mushroom to the summit of Cerro Torre, a bizarre pitch of overhanging fluff.
"It was the scariest moment on the entire climb," Haley said. "I used my elbows and knees, trying to spread out my weight so I didn't just fall through." Haley tunneled up and into the steep snow, finally punching his way out. When his partner Kelly Cordes arrived at the belay, it was only a short pitch to the summit Haley had been dreaming about since his early teens.
"If there was one peak I wanted to climb in my life, it was Cerro Torre. It felt pretty surreal to be on a summit that I'd been obsessing about for so long."
Descending the mountain, Haley became distracted by an odd smell. "I kept thinking, man, Kelly really stinks. But then I'd get to an anchor before he did and the smell would be there. I realized it was me, too—we smelled like ammonia." Haley and Cordes, emaciated from 40 hours out, were burning through their muscle tissue. "When we got to the ground, I could actually feel that my harness was looser," Haley said.
A 22-year-old college student, Colin Haley has accomplished more in the world's toughest mountains than most alpinists will in their entire lives. His January climb of Cerro Torre with Cordes marks a milestone in Patagonian climbing: the sought-after first linkup of the ephemeral Marsigny-Parkin route with the upper West Face route (VI WI4 M5 AI6). Haley has now reached nine summits in the Fitz Roy region.
Last July, Haley, with Jed Brown, made the first ascent of The Entropy Wall (VI 5.9 A2+ WI4+ 2300 m) on Mount Moffit, in Alaska's remote Hayes Range. Haley has also completed the second enchainment of British Columbia's Waddington Range (VI 5.9 AI3), in 2004, and in 2005, a solo attempt to 21,300 feet on Nanga Parbat's Schell Route. Last year, the American Alpine Club honored Haley with the Robert Hicks Bates Award for achievement by a young climber.
We chatted with Haley on a Friday afternoon; he'd just gotten out of class at the University of Washington and was packing his gear for a solo winter attempt of The Garth Pillar (V 5.10 A1) on the north face of Mount Stuart.
How long are you going to be out?
It's a 10-mile ski in to the base of the route. I'm going to try to do it in three days, round trip.
Does that mean you're skipping classes on Monday?
There's a high-pressure system—you've got to take advantage of it.
When did you start climbing?
My dad taught me how to self-arrest when I was 9, but I didn't start climbing fifth-class stuff until about 13. My early climbs were mountaineering objectives—fourth-class climbs using a swami belt and an eight-mil cord.
In the Cascades?
Yes. One of my main partners was Mark Bunker. He's great, totally old school. I think a lot of people learn how to climb WI6 and then they go to Alaska thinking that they're all set. But alpine climbing has just as much to do with knowing how to arrange stuff on a tiny bivy or how to melt snow efficiently. I learned that from him.
What has been the highlight of your climbs so far?
Cerro Torre. I'd been thinking about it for so long. Moffit [in Alaska's Hayes Range] was a more difficult climb, but Cerro Torre was more spectacular.
What was it like to reach your life's climbing goal?
I was super psyched to be [on the summit of Cerro Torre], but to some degree it was weird. All of a sudden this thing that you've held in such regard—this ideal—no longer exists.
Now what?
Now what?
The world's most difficult objectives are in the Himalaya and Karakoram, so I'm sure I'll go there. To up the ante in alpine climbing, you have to go to altitude. I want to climb Latok I, but then everyone wants to climb it.
What is your favorite kind of route?
The most inspiring climbing objectives for me are mountains where simply getting to the summit by any route is a challenge.
You've been to Patagonia three times, for a total of less than 11 weeks—not very long for all the summits you've reached. To what do you attribute your success down there?
Definitely I've had good luck with the weather. But I think it's also due to being willing to climb in worse weather than most people. When Bart [Paull] and I climbed Poincenot, we had on crampons and ski goggles and belay parkas the whole time. We were climbing through a blizzard.
You're in your junior year at the University of Washington.
I should be a senior, but I took all of last year off to go to Pakistan, France, Argentina and Norway, to ski and climb.
You went to Chamonix after Patagonia last year?
It was pretty crazy. I was on a cheap stand-by ticket and my travel got messed up in Buenos Aires. I only had 14 hours in Seattle after being in Argentina for seven weeks and leaving again for Europe for four months.
I bet your parents were psyched about that.
They still picked me up from the airport, at least.
How do you spend your time in Patagonia when you're not climbing?
Basecamp is so comfortable there. I go bouldering, hang out in camp and listen to music.
What kind of music do you bring on expeditions?
Bjork, Sigur Roas—they're another Icelandic group, Tool and Alice in Chains—sort of an eclectic mix.
What's with the Icelandic thing?
Oh, it's awesome. Do you like Radiohead? Sigur Roas is just like Radiohead, but better … and even crazier.
Did you meet any Argentine girls in El Chalten this year?
[pause] Maybe.
Where do you live?
I rent my friend's floor for $100 a month [in Seattle]. I just keep a sleeping bag, a ridge rest and a pillow—all my climbing and skiing gear is at my parents' house.
To save money for climbing?
Yeah, my parents give me enough money to live in the dorms if I want, but I realized that if I just dirtbag it, I can save enough money to go on climbing trips on my breaks.
What do your college friends think about your climbing?
They're all disappointed that I don't party as much as I used to.
Because you're training?
Well, yeah … not going out and binge drinking is training for me.
You've climbed with a lot of different partners of all ages.
Do you look for anything specific in a partner?
You've climbed with a lot of different partners of all ages.
Do you look for anything specific in a partner?
A good alpine climber has to be physically strong, but intelligence and experience are also important. I think in alpine climbing more than any other type of climbing, you have to do a lot of logical thinking. … It's no surprise that all the sport climbers out there are living the rock-star lives and all the alpine climbers are a bunch of nerds.
Does that mean you're a nerd?
Yeah. Totally.


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AMD Athlon X2 7850 vs. Intel Pentium E5300: Choosing the Best $70 CPUby Anand Lal Shimpi on 4/28/2009 11:00 AM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
56 Comments
Back to Article
evanwhat - Tuesday, May 12, 2009 - linkPlease revisit this debate with overclocking factored into the picture.
Many thanks,
-Evan Reply
Patrick Wolf - Monday, May 04, 2009 - linkWhy even bother with single core CPU's anymore? Why can't you throw a $50 Celeron e1400 in there? How does it compare to the lower end X2's and P4's? Reply
orenlevy - Saturday, May 02, 2009 - linkIt seems you are benching the wrong hardware! You are far from the market guys.... the whole story is changing when comparing low end mobos. like G31or n73 for Intel. And 740V\g or 780G for AMD. It change totally the latency timing specially in Intel setup-there is no on die controller.
agawtrip - Friday, May 01, 2009 - linkpeople who buy these CPUs are those on a budget.
you only have two setups here - budget setups
intel e5200/e5300 + 9300/9400 boards
AMD x27750/7850 + 780G
now which is faster and has a lower price?
9300/9400 boards are faster than 780g but on a higher price. then if you're really on a budget you'll have to go for AMD set-up. if you still have some extra cash, you can put it on a video card, or extra memory or go for tri-core which will give a real nice performance, faster than OCed e5200/e5300.
dingetje - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linksorry to say this, but leaving overclocking out of the equation means: FAIL Reply
bigsnyder - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkThe article keeps referencing the e6400 as a comparison, but I don't see it in the charts from the original core 2 duo review. Am I missing something here? Reply
v12v12 - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI don't wanna toot a moral high-horse, but... I noticed the word "crippled" in the article; why on earth (aside from being cheap or broke and needing a better job) would you waste money on a crippled piece of hard ware.
Let me break this down: So a manufacturer produces a product X with 4 cores or whatever. Now they say "hey we've created this product and want a certain amount of compensation." So, the cost of production, advertising blah blah is all factored into this selling price. 4 cores yadda yadda...
Now some really smart mofo says "hey we can sell the same exact product from the same fab line, but we'll just 'disable' the other cores and rebadge it as a lower model, even though it costs us little to nothing to do this since it's all the same hardware!!!" Sweet deal for AMD/Intel etc.
Can you see where this is going? I would never buy something that someone purposefully disabled cores that are on the chip, that could be active and working perfectly, but they've decided to be greedy (not necessarily bad) and disable them unless you pay another higher fee. So all someone (them) has to do is flip a switch or connect some traces and boom you have the true product as intended. So in essence, it costs them little to nothing to cripple this thing, yet charge a bit less for another "product," which in reality is NOT another product, it's the same dang thing but crippled.
Smart business practice yes... good for the consumer's wallet? No. Profits Vs Consumers. Often times consumers (cattle) find themselves rationalizing or justifying these shady profit-practices, BUT ask yourselves; would they or do they have much concern for your wallet... Yes they do, they are concerned with getting as much money from you as they can regardless of performance or not. 2 active cores or 4... they don't care so long as you're paying as much as they can get.. It costs them X to make this CPU, and they want to find a reasonable profit margin Vs costs of production, but yet they can still sell you the SAME hardware, just switched off at a MUCH lower price??? WOW these guys are deviously intelligent. Can't say the same about many of their customers…
chowmanga - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkYou're missing the point of disabling cores and selling them for cheaper price. Silicone yields aren't 100%. A lot of times these cpu's come out with defected so rather than scrapping the whole thing, they rebadge it them and sell them for cheap. They aren't necessarily "active and working perfectly" Reply
kopilka - Saturday, January 16, 2010 - linkAthlon outside competition, Athlon won the market!
http://www.safegeneric.com">http://www.safegeneric.com Reply
Doc01 - Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - linkAthlon has surpassed all expectations, Athlon outside competition.
http:... Reply
Doc01 - Thursday, November 18, 2010 - linkI fully agree with you, that the Athlon is unrivaled.
http://www.saferxtab.com Reply
v12v12 - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkNow THIS is a "valid" retort... The others cannot understand my clearly underlying point; as you've described yours. I now understand a possible reasoning.
Thanks for the insight mate.
Lastly...The nit-picking over negligible and highly specific instances where the lower power...
*Pause* lmfao give me a break, just who or what group (purchasing this cpu) is large enough to justify that case? Nobody gives a crap about 10-40W power diffs. Those types of examples are laughable as:
1) Most people who buy this chip are not running a file server(s).
2) Don't give a hoot about small power diffs.
3) They want performance/dollar period.
4) Even the cheaper ($20) HSFs of TODAY are more than enough to cool them, even OC'd... Your argument would have flown (shortly) maybe 7yrs ago?
erple2 - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkI had thought that these chips were simply the x4's that couldn't pass the full quality tests with 4 cores, so AMD simply disabled the cores that couldn't pass. That might bump up the "yield" of at least sellable chips from 60 odd percent per die to closer to 85%. From AMD's perspective, it's "free" money - they were going to throw out those CPUs anyway, but disabling multiple cores got them to pass.
Now, people complain all the time about the power hungry graphics cards that AMD made. See arguments in the comments about the 4890 and the GTX275 about the extra 30W the 4890 uses at idle or full tilt over the GTX275. It therefore does matter to someone. I just questions whether it matters as much as they think it does :) Reply
strikeback03 - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkActually, if you read through the comments in a bunch of articles here, you will likely find before too long something by the guy running his house completely off solar/wind, who is always asking for lower power components. Not to say that is a typical case, but there are people for whom 10-40W do make a difference.
Also, on the "crippling" hardware point: By your definition, aren't pretty much all processors "crippled," as they do not run at their maximum stable speed by default? Are you only going to buy the QX9770/PhenomII 955/i7 965 class hardware because it is not "crippled"? And if those can be overclocked, doesn't it mean they are "crippled" too? Reply
nubie - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkYou seem to be coming from a different corner than me.
It makes perfect sense from a market standpoint, there is only so much people are willing to spend, if you don't have a product at that price then they might buy somewhere else.
I think that the Intel method is great. 2MB level 2 cache is acceptable, although losing the Virtualization is regrettable.
Having a 45nm core with a multiplier of 12.5 or 13 on an 800mhz front-side bus means that cash-strapped enthusiasts will be clearly on Intel's side.
I don't see anything wrong with the practice, I always enjoy getting more for less.
Look at all the benefits of the 'crippled' (we prefer the term 'feature reduced') processors. The same process, same tech, same billions in research and development, 70% of the performance, if not 80-90% (or higher). In the case of a reduced quad core you also get less power consumption and higher potential overclocking, with the lower heat output that goes with it.
All you have to do is pay a fraction of the price. Sounds fine to me.
Tinkerers, hackers, overclockers, customizers, hobbyists, call us what you will, but we just don't have the budget of a small country to operate on. These companies are letting us play with the result of Trillions of dollars of research for the cost of a couple tanks of gas or a few meals.
I would much rather buy Phenom II x3 Black or a Q6600 and spend $50 on a heatsink and thermal compound than $500 on a 6-core or 8-core processor to run at stock speeds. My performance in the applications and games I actually use will be 80%-150% of the more expensive processor anyway.
The balance of the money I can spend on an OCZ Vertex SSD or a SuperTalent SSD and make the computer perceptibly more responsive.
I just don't see your point. Reply
v12v12 - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI don't care what the market or stand point is... It's costing me (more). I've been OC'ing for a decade plus. I'm on a OC'd AMD as we speak :-)
My point is... I don't like the fact that with the flip of a "switch" you COULD have the true, full active CPU. So the extra "cost" of "on/off" is my issue. Not 80% performance for 30% less (est.) Just give us the 4 cores for the cheap price, b/c it's obvious if they can ship out 4 cores -minus 2 with a flick of a switch... then they prob could be selling all of them for that price or a tad bit (say 10-15% Max) higher. I'm arguing from the consumer's POV, and so should all of you. Justifying the manufacturer's POV is like...
The problem with USA's society; the ignorant poor/middle still day dreaming as if they were rich, by voting in and arguing the RICH man's POV, which in essence, keeps them enslaved, lol! Fight YOUR class/side's battle, NOT theirs. Arguing why it makes sense for them is pointless; you're still getting 4 cores minus 2, b/c of a simple "on/off." What justifies (aside from more profit (attempts in AMDs case)) this in your mind?
I'll pay less for the SAME hardware, but get less. If I find a way to "flip the switch" am I "wrong?" Are they "wrong" for cutting the switch? Yes, no? I don't care about them, I care about ME. AMD has shown it's just as guilty of market/performance hype and the like, as with Apple, as with Intel and anyone else. Why the exception and excuses for AMD but nobody else? They flat out deceived and lied about the Phenom when it 1st was in pre-release. Everyone just turned their heads b/c AMD was wounded and limping. A lie is a lie in this case. Once I discovered this from a myriad of review sites, I lost respect for AMD; though I still support them and want them to pull through solely b/c it benefits us as consumers. I don't care about Intel Vs AMD... I care about the CHEAPEST + Fastest hardware for the money.
The cost of flipping a switch is the bottom-line of the argument; the rest is filler and entertainment value for this forum :-)
JarredWalton - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkYour perspective would be valid were it not for one thing: AMD isn't likely to be killing off fully functional, 100% working cores on a lot of CPUs. The reason they have tri-core isn't to sell more CPUs at a lower price, it's that the fourth core is defective in some way. The same goes for dual-core, so they're not 100% working, perfect CPUs that have been crippled; they're defective CPUs that are made to work 100% correctly by circumventing some faulty circuitry. Maybe *some* dual-core and tri-core are not faulty, but I wouldn't count on it. Reply
just4U - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkAlso as a further note, by faulty it just means it didn't pass their scratch test (or whatever) While some of us might unlock these cpu's and find that they work fairly well with all cores enabled that doesn't mean that they are fully working cores according to Amd's spec. Reply
Insomniator - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkIf there was no way to flip the switch then the cheapest chip would be well over 70 bucks or whatever the given crippled chips cost.
Its not like Intel/AMD would sell tons more chips if quad cores were 100 bucks (wait, actually AMD already has them at that price but anyway...), they would just sell the same number of chips but without added revenue from thousands of $150+ chips.
So do you want to be forced to pay 150 for the only chip available, or have the option of spending half that or twice that depending on what you need?
Also lets not forget about heat/power consumption... a 5x00 uses less power than a 9x00... which is a big deal for many people and a huge deal for businesses. It would really suck if the only chip available was a Q9650 or a PII 955, even at just $150, if you just wanted to make a file server.
If say a company like AMD only makes one chip but cripples them to sell at different price points, do you think it makes sense for them to have to make completely different chips with different manufacturing lines to sell the same products? Prices again, would go up overall.
In conclusion, your complaint doesn't make any sense. Reply
balancedthinking - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkDid I miss something? Are you realy using the word "profit" and "greed" in the same sentence with "AMD", regarding an AMD product?
Regarding the other aspects, I think you should definitly start thinking about not smoking that green stuff anymore. Reply
v12v12 - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkWhat does personal mud slinging have to do with my points? Please debate them, if you can? Reply
Doc01 - Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - linkAthlon has surpassed all expectations, Athlon outside competition.
http://www.sa... Reply
just4U - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI think overclocks are a non issue with the 5300. Why would anyone buy it over a 5200 which is already a proven performer. Not like the 5300 could actually outdue it... Anyway..
I was faced with a decision on a couple of cheap builds. (no overclocking) The 5200 or the 7750. In the end I opted for the 7750 for a few reasons..
I kinda felt that the chips were comparable overall.. but a key deciding factor was the motherboards used. The 780G chipset is just way to tempting at such a low low price for a budget build that it sort of trumps Intel's cpu/mb considerations. Atleast in my opinion... am I wrong?
TA152H - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkAnand, you mention the Pentium has a one cycle faster L1 cache, but my understanding is they are both three cycles. I know the K7 and K8 were three cycles. Did AMD slow down the L1 cache on the Phenom's?
A few other things to consider. The L2 cache on the AMD is exclusive, Intel's is inclusive. But, the L1 cache of AMD processors is not really 128K, since they pad instructions for easier decoding, but I guess that's just nitpicking.
I'm really curious about the L1 cache latency though. Can you let us know if the Phenom is now 4 clock cycles? It's an ugly trend we're seeing, with the L1 cache latency still going up, except for the Itanium. Which, as we all know, will replace x86. Hmmmm, I guess Intel missed on that prediction :-P . Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkYou know, I didn't even catch that until now. I ran a quick latency test that reported 4 cycles but the original Phenom (and Phenom II) both have a 3 cycle L1. I've got a message in to AMD to see if the benchmark reported incorrectly or if something has changed. I'm guessing it's just a benchmark error but I want to confirm, I've seen stranger things happen :)
Intel found that the 4 cycle L1 in Nehalem cost them ~2% in performance, but it was necessary to keep increasing clock speeds. I'd pay ~2% :)
Take care,
Anand Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI was under the impression the reason Intel increased L1 cache latency was so they could use a lower power technology, and save some power.
I heard the number was around 3 to 4 percentage loss in performance, but I guess it always depends on workload and who in Intel is saying it.
But, the whole setup seems strange to me now. Typically, when you go to the 3-level cache hierarchy, you see a smaller, faster L1 cache, not a very slow one like the Nehalem has. Especially with such a small, fast L2 cache, and the fact the L1 is inclusive in it, I'm not clear why they didn't cut the L1 cache in half, and lower the latency. You'd cut costs, you'd cut power, and I'm not sure you'd lose any performance with a 32K L1 cache with three cycles, instead of a 64K with four, when you have a 10 cycle L2 cache behind it. A non-exclusive L2 cache that is only four times the size of the L1 cache seems like an aberration to me. I wouldn't be surprised if this changed in some way for the next release, but I have no information on it at all.
But, mathematically, if you could but the L1 cache to three cycles by going to 32K, that would mean you'd get better performance for reads up to the 32K mark by one cycle, and worse by six cycles for anything between 32K and 64K. Typically, you'd expect this to favor the smaller cache, since the likelihood of it falling outside the 32K but within the 64K is probably less than 1/6 the chance of it falling inside the 32K. Really, we should be halving it, since it's instruction and data, but I think it's still true. On top of this, you'd always have lower power, and you'd always have a smaller die, and generate less heat. And you wouldn't have that crazy four to one L2 to L1 ratio.
But, the Nehalem has great performance, so obviously Intel knew what they were doing. Maybe they were able to hide the latency well beyond simple mathematics like I used above, or maybe cutting it to three cycles would have been difficult (very hard to imagine since it's working on the Penryn with 64K, and the clock speeds aren't so different). I wish I knew :-P .
Thanks for your response. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkThis is what I wrote in my original Nehalem Architecture piece:
"The L1 cache is the same size as what we have in Penryn, but it's actually slower (4 cycles vs. 3 cycles). Intel slowed down the L1 cache as it was gating clock speed, especially as the chip grew in size and complexity. Intel estimated a 2 - 3% performance hit due to the higher latency L1 cache in Nehalem."
I believe Ronak Singhal was the source on that, the chief architect behind Nehalem.
I suspect the decision to stick with a 64KB L1 (I + D) instead of shrinking it has to do with basic statistics. There's no way the L1 is going to catch all of anything, but the whole idea behind the cache hierarchy is to catch a high enough percentage of data/instructions to limit the number of trips to lower levels of memory.
It's not impossible to build a 64KB 3-cycle L1, but if Ronak is correct then even a smaller L1 would not negate the need to make it a 4-cycle cache - the L1 was gating clock speed.
I think Intel found the right L1 size for its chips and the right L2 size. The L3 is up in the air at this point. Ronak said he wanted a larger cache, but definitely no less than 2MB per core (8MB for a quad-core).
Take care,
Anand Reply
f4phantom2500 - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkseriously, most people who come to anandtech and look at these things are at least aware of overclocking, if not overclockers themselves. whenever i build desktop rigs for myself i always go for the cheap "low end" chips and overclock them. the e5300 is an excellent example. honestly i'd expect it to completely decimate the 7850 in all ways if they were overclocked, but they should definitely have put it in this review, as there are 2 people who buy these types cheap cpus:
1. people who do basic stuff and don't really care anyway
2. people who overclock
and people who overclock would most likely constitute the majority of the readers of a comparison between the two chips, because if you didn't care about performance that much then there aren't too many reasons why you'd bother reading this review. Reply
sprockkets - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkFor me, it comes down to whether I want a Zotac mini ITX board based on the 8200 or 9300 chip. While the AMD one is cheaper, they neglected to put in a HDMI and SPDIF ports on it, so, I have to go for the Intel board.
Besides, they have a small heatsink fan combo. I assume the AMD one is bigger, but of course, it mounts much easier and better than Intel's setup. Reply
leexgx - Sunday, May 03, 2009 - linkthe intel one make so little heat does not need an big heatsink, i going to have to start useing intel CPUs for my basic systems soon as where i get me cpus form only stock 2.7ghz amd X2 CPUs or the heat moster 7750 Reply
JimmiG - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkInteresting to see the X4 9850 at 2.5GHz beating the higher clocked Phenom-derived Athlon X2 in many of the game tests. If multithreaded performance of games continue to improve, I think a Quad or Triple core CPU would be more future proof?
The Phenom II X3 is a very nice AMD gaming CPU at this time and a tempting "sidegrade" even though I've already got a first-generation Phenom X4. Reply
Davelo - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkand then totally ignores it's original premise. I'm no fanboy but I find it very hard to miss the fact that the Intel solution costs almost $150 more when you factor in the added cost of the motherboard. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI used the X48 simply to allow for direct comparisons to all of the other CPU test data in Bench - www.anandtech.com/bench. The X48 performs similarly to the P45 and the P35 (and many other similar chipsets if you're not overclocking), so the comparison is still valid.
Take care,
Anand Reply
lopri - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkWhat about power consumption comparison? Are you penalizing E5300 with X48 there? That'd be incredibly stupid and unfair to E5300.
And this paragraph makes no sense to me. (literally)
The original Phenom architecture was designed to be used for quad-core processor designs, hence the use of a large shared L3 cache alongside private L2 caches. With only two cores, many of the benefits of this architecture are lost. Intel discovered that the ideal dual-core architecture featured two levels of cache with a large, fast, L2 shared by both cores. AMD and Intel came to the conclusion that the ideal quad-core architecture had private L2 caches (one per core) with a large, shared L3 cache. The Athlon X2 7850 takes the cache hierarchy of the ideal quad-core design and uses it on a dual-core processor. To make matters worse, it does so with an incredibly small L3. Intel found that on its Nehalem processor each core needed a minimum of 2MB of L3 cache for optimal performance. With Phenom II AMD settled on 1.5MB L3 per core. The original Phenom gave each core 512KB of L3, or in the case of a dual-core derivative 1MB of L3 cache. Again, not ideal.
Interesting review, nevertheless. Reply
TA152H - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkWhat he was trying to say was, the ideal cache set up for a quad-core is different from a dual-core. The quad-core is best with a relatively small and fast L2 cache, and a significantly larger L3 cache. The dual core is best with a relatively large L2 cache, and no L3 cache. Because AMD's processor is a quad-core stripped down to a dual-core, it has the cache hierarchy of the quad-core, even though it's a dual core now. So, it's not the ideal cache setup. Reply
edogawaconan - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkAlso worth noting that not all lower-end Intel processor includes VT-x which (arguably?) helps accelerating speed for tasks related to virtualization. Reply
stmok - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkActually, Intel's VT or AMD-V doesn't do much for performance. (You'll see this with VirtualBox. What it does provide is a more stable development approach to virtualization for the software programmer.)
The one area where you will see a performance increase is with "nested paging". (A 2nd generation virtualisation feature).
In that case, the Phenom-based Athlon X2 clearly wins. NONE of the Core 2 series have nested paging, only Core i7 series...And this Core 2 doesn't have Intel VT either! Nested paging was introduced in all K10 based AMD CPUs. (Its also carried onto K10.5 or Phenom II processors). Reply
nvmarino - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkConsidering the low price and low FSB/high multiplier of the E5300 makes it a perfect candidate for overclocking I'm surprised you guys didn't do some OC tests. Would be nice to see the impact of smaller cache at higher clocks.
My e5300 does 3.7Ghz easily with a PoS air cooler. Reply
aeternitas - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI think this review needs to be augmented with OC capabilities and the tests redone with them.
Its highly unrealistic to test these at stock. The mass majority of people that would care about this review at this price are getting these cpus because of the insane bargain when OCed.
To not test that is really unrealistic. It makes this whole article much less usefull than it could have been. Reply
nubie - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI went for the e5200 for $59 on ebay. Same chip but with a 12.5 multi instead of 13.
I plan on running it well north of 3 ghz on a day to day basis, either 1066 or 1333 FSB. Even 1066 will get you a solid 3.4ghz, and it should be able to reach that easily on any motherboard.
You completely forgot to mention that this is the only 800mhz FSB line on a 45nm process, and thus can be overclocked in any motherboard, including $45 ones with a simple strap on the FSB pads.
I think that Intel is the clear winner, hands down, if you are an enthusiast with very little money who is not opposed to overclocking. Reply
just4U - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI don't agree about intel being the clear choice, (enthusiast or otherwise)
You have to factor in boards being used to. Chances are most that are looking for a bottom feeder budget build will be using integrated chipsets. The 780g/v brings so much more to the table over what we currently get from intel offerings..
That was a key sticking point for me.. and I think it really makes the choice a hard one to make unless your brand loyal, or a overclocker looking for a cheap cpu based around a competent setup. Reply
nubie - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkDepends on what you need, I went for a 650i motherboard with a single PCIe slot for an 8600GTS ( the 2ghz ram actually seems to help with the 128-bit bus). It was $40, and you can get that deal yourself.
I doubt for $140 you can beat a 3.3-3.4 ghz core2 with an 8600GTS. Reply
soydeedo - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkYeah, that's what I was thinking. Reply
Zaitsev - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI was hoping to see a few words on OCing as well. I mean, having two cores disabled should yield some more headroom than the quad core parts, right? Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkI didn't have time to test overclocking for this article but if there's enough demand we can definitely look at how the two compare. The E5300 has a good amount of headroom thanks to its 45nm process, I'd expect the standings to remain the same if not widen in favor of Intel.
Take care,
Anand Reply
cpeter38 - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkPlease do OC the chip ...
crimson117 - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkOC results on these two budget CPUs would be great - but it'd be best if it were normalized somehow...
1. Same price-class motherboards, around $100 or less to match the low-cost CPUs
2. Same exact ram modules
3. Same heatsink, or limit it to included stock heatsinks
, and re-run just a few choice benchmarks.
Would make for a great blog post :) Reply
Viditor - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkWhile you're at it, you should unlock the other 2 cores as well...
johnsonx - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkI've read dozens of articles and posts claiming that you can unlock the extra core(s) in the new X2's and X3's, and exactly ZERO telling how to actually do it. Is this some sort of urban legend?
ssj4Gogeta - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkYes we'd definitely like to see OC results. I'm sure after OC'ing both chips to their max. gaming performance will be significantly better on the Intel part too. Reply
just4U - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkCan't see the 5300 outdoing the 5200 really. At best it might equal it or not be as good. I Don't even see why anyone would buy the 5300 for overclocking at all.. (unless ofcourse the 5200 is at the end of it's line)
as a guesstimate...
5300 might get anywhere from 3.8-4.0+
4850 would get anywhere from 3.1-3.3+
End of overclock guestimate review (grin)
(on article topic.. Great review. Mixed bag of results really and once you factor in budget chipset boards it clouds the choice even further)
memphist0 - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkDefinately would like to see some overclocking with a mid range cooler Reply
Erif - Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - linkYes, I'd like to see how the 7850 OCes compared to my 7750. Reply
johnsonx - Wednesday, April 29, 2009 - linkThere's unlikely to be any different at all between a 7850 and 7750; any differences would be the normal chip to chip variability in overclocking. It's not a comparison even worth doing. Reply
Doc01 - Tuesday, July 27, 2010 - linkAthlon has surpassed all expectations!
http://www.sa... Reply
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text:
Heard In The Halls, Day 3: No love for Clowney?
Published: Thursday, July 18, 2013 at 5:00 p.m.
Last Modified: Thursday, July 18, 2013 at 5:29 p.m.
HOOVER, Ala. — The SEC preseason teams as voted by the media came out Thursday morning and the real stunner wasn't that Alabama was picked to win the West or Georgia to win the East. The real stunner was that there were 20 people who voted who didn't select Jadeveon Clowney. One national writer went to social media to try to find out the identity of these men or women by asking them to reveal themselves. This isn't as big a deal as when one coach didn't vote for Tim Tebow in 2009 (it was famously Steve Spurrier), but it was surprising. It was also surprising that the defending Heisman Trophy winner received less than half of the votes for the quarterback position. Maybe if he had a quiet offseason it might have been different.
*One of the things that has been annoying about SEC Media Days is the number of so-called journalists asking questions while wearing team hats or shirts. The logos have been almost non-existent this year in the hallways at the Hyatt Regency. Every time I would ask someone in the SEC about it in the past, they'd say, "It's a free country." And nobody from the league will say they tried to put the kibosh on it this year. It's not a big thing for you, but it kind of bugs the writers.
*I came here searching for answers and found some concerning the selection committee for the new four-team playoff. The feeling is that nobody who covers a team could be asked because it would be a conflict of interest. And that if some were asked, there is no assurance that they would be allowed to by their news organizations. Kind of like when the Associated Press pulled its poll out of the BCS because it didn't want to make the news, just report on it. So now we're going to have current athletic directors, former administrators and perhaps some former media members on the committee.
*Nick Saban's arrival echoes into the ballroom at the Hyatt Regency because there are so many Alabama fans down in the lobby waiting for him (one was wearing a hat fashioned after a national championship ring). You could hear a loud "Roll Tide" cheer even in the closed ballroom when the coach entered the front doors to sign some autographs. It kind of sounded like a tornado. Other than the Alabama fans, it wasn't the usual circus in the lobby during the week.
*There is a real art to making your way from the ballroom to the bathroom. For the rookies, it's easy to get trampled by a horde of men and women carrying cameras and backing up as a coach is making his way from one interview room to another. The veterans keep an eye out for the wave of the rude. It's almost like being on the sideline for a football game and a play comes your way and you know it might not be the most masculine thing in the world but you start backing up. A new element has been added this year to the obstacle course — young women with small cameras on their shoulders walking through the halls texting. Gotta dodge them.
*Ran into Dari Nowkhah of ESPNU during one of his breaks from the coverage and asked him who his favorite interview has been during SEC Media Days. He said he really likes talking to Bret Bielema because the new Arkansas coach is so laid back. He also liked talking to Mississippi State coach Dan Mullen and Georgia quarterback Aaron Murray.
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.


text:
Gators open season at No. 10 in polls
Published: Saturday, August 17, 2013 at 3:59 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, August 17, 2013 at 3:59 p.m.
The Florida Gators are opening the season as a consensus top-10 team. That became official Saturday with the release of the preseason Associated Press poll, which has the Gators ranked No. 10, the same spot UF holds in the coaches' poll.
Defending national champion Alabama was the overwhelming choice to start the season at No. 1. The Tide received 58 of 60 first-place votes in the AP poll. Ohio State is No. 2.
Just like the coaches' poll, two of the Gators' Eastern Division rivals are ranked ahead of them in the AP rating. Georgia is No. 5, while South Carolina is No. 6.
There are five SEC teams in the top 10 — Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Texas A&M (7) and Florida.
Florida State is ranked just behind UF at No. 11, while Miami opens the season unranked in both the coaches' poll and the AP.
Reader comments posted to this article may be published in our print edition. All rights reserved. This copyrighted material may not be re-published without permission. Links are encouraged.


text:
+myConnections: Engage your community - connect to news, events and information you care about. View more information...
Personalize your online experience to stay up-to-date on news, events and other information.View My Dashboard
I have been an adult mentor for elementary-age children during the school years 2010-11 and 11-12. It's been a fabulous experience! Let's talk about how we can build our community by investing time into the lives of some of its youngest members. My name is Steven E. Pargman, a graduate of San Gorgonio High School, and attendee of Del Vallejo and Barton schools. I currently live in the Central Kitsap School District in Washington State.


text:
About the Book
Paper and Threads contains the artwork and the thoughts of Dr. Shirley Levine who provides an almost daily account of her watercolor painting and sketches in this wonderful hardcover book.
The entire book was taken from her blog and converted with the help of Andy Grachuk from JingotheCat.com. Please take a look at the preview to get a glimpse of the amazing talent contained within.
Features & Details
- Category Blogs
Standard Portrait, 7.75×9.75 in, 20×25 cm
250 Pages
- Publish Date Jun 01, 2008
- Tags new england, blog, book, conversion, Jingothecat, andy, grachuk, artwork, paper, threads, watercolor, blog-to-book, BlurbNation, amazing, photos, custom, publishing, design
About the Creator
With over 400 clients in 30 countries, we have grown from a small practice into a very successful business. We have created over 1200 books using a variety of professional tools including Adobe Indesign, Photoshop and Lightroom. I'd love to work with you to turn your family recipes, boxes of photographs, poems and short stories or your personal online blog into a hardcover or softcover book that you'll be proud to share with your family and friends! We offer more than just book design - technical assistance is included in every estimate including remote computer support to help transition vital book data from your machine to our centralized server. We are also available by phone and email anytime to answer questions and provide assistance to ensure the design process is smooth and worry-free. With over 70% of our clients referring their family and friends, our commitment towards collaboration provides satisfaction and ultimately a book you will be thrilled to own and share.
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