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Lab Update: SSDs, Nehalem Mac Pro, Nehalem EX, Bench and Moreby Anand Lal Shimpi on 5/27/2009 12:00 AM EST
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AZREOspecialist - Saturday, July 11, 2009 - linkHey guys, it's been a month and a half and I still don't see the Mac Pro CPU upgrade article. I want to do one of these mods myself, and I'm waiting for the full article to come out before I plunk down the big bucks.
Any idea when this will be posted? Reply
Tutor - Friday, June 26, 2009 - linkIf you're interested in the possibility of upgrading an i7 or Xeon Mac Pro check out this discussion thread and benchmark result to see what Anand's blog has inspired:
http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/143750">http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/143750 Reply
Tutor - Saturday, June 27, 2009 - linkUpdate: Thread is at:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=71393...">http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=71393... Reply
jeramhyde - Wednesday, June 03, 2009 - linkre: Windows 7
Please do change over! For those of us that waited around on XP, and made the jump to w7, it is much more helpful to have reviews in w7 than it is in Vista. Plus, testing the latest hardware on the latest software helps us see where the real topend results are :-)
So a big +1 from me! Reply
ddobrigk - Saturday, May 30, 2009 - linkHey, it occurred to me that the massive 8-way 8-core nehalem-EX platform is actually connected in a cube! Each vertex is a processor, each edge is a QPI link. It's the most symmetrical way to make an 8-way system using processors with 3 links (the 4th connects to the I/O hubs).
Thinking of a cube is easier than understanding the 2D-projection, I think... And it's cool! Too bad that system will probably be insanely expensive. I'm a physicist and I have a bunch of colleagues that would love having such a system. Many of them actually have massively parallel software! Reply
Kougar - Friday, May 29, 2009 - link[Quote]How much would you guys hate me if I switched to Windows 7 sooner rather than later?[/quote]
Exactly the opposite, the only thing I'd want to see is Windows 7 used, and perhaps XP so show any differences with SSD performance. There seems to be a bit of an XP or W7 only mentality, but Vista's performance would be easy to ballpark from just using Window 7's results. I was not even aware Vista supports the Trim command, but was of the opinion XP does not? Reply
Seramics - Friday, May 29, 2009 - linkAs regarding the CPU selection for the next influx of old CPU to be included for the the Anandtech bench, I have heard you mention about Pentium 4's, Athlon XP but why not Athlon 64's of socket 939? It is one of the greatest processors of its time and running on single core and DDR1, we would like to see how it fare against the current line up of new processors. Reply
valnar - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkPersonally, for those of us who remember all the old CPU's dating back 10-15 years, it just simply helps to know how the Atom compares to older cpu XYZ. Is it like a PIII for example in performance? Because once we know how it performs in relation to an older CPU, everybody "in the know" can extrapolate how it'll perform compared to something modern. Reply
plummerb - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkGreat Stuff there Anand, looking forward to your next few articles. I like to see how my old BP6 with dual Celerons would fair against the newer beasts of today. Other than that keep the updates coming on the SSD front, eventually will make the switch but for now Raptor is best. Reply
abnderby - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkI read about the athlon xp and p4 etc. Don't forget the dual socket systems out there. We have a lot of them, many users went to them when core 2 duo and quads meant severe upgrades of everything. Please add the dual socket workstation class cpu's and mothierboards you have on hand to the bench. If you need help with some of them I am sure some readers out there would be glad to lend a hand Reply
flensr - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkAnand,
Switch to win7 as soon as possible. Lots of folks are running winXP on new hardware but are so distrustful of upgrading that they're not getting everything out of their hardware that they could. Nobody trusts anyone who says that vista works fine, so nobody uses vista if they don't have to.
But if you switch to win7 and it works out good for you, then I bet lots of people will finally upgrade from winXP. I'm running win7 beta on my laptop and if MS doesn't price win7 out of my reach, I have 4 computers that will need to be upgraded when it's released, assuming I decide I can trust MS again. Reply
danielk - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkAnand, common! how could we ever hate you? we love all your articles! Go for 'pioneering' and do your benches on win7, we will all be using it within the 'reasonable' future anyway.
Also, please please please! feed us more info on SSD's. I keep checking your 'Storage' page DAILY for that update you promised in your last article from march(some secretive stuff from Intel).
I was thinking about getting an intel disk but keep stalling due to uncertainties about when the next gen. SSD's will be around the corner and how much an upgrade/price reduction they will bring to the table. Reply
FaaR - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - link...What I'd like to see is some older GPUs used as well, particulary the 8800GTX. It was ages now since I saw a single review at anandtech that featured 8800GTXes, SLI'd or otherwise, and I'd love to see how they stack up against today's offerings. Reply
Randomblame - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkNow I get to see how my i7 stacks up against my ancient barton xp 2500
Just make sure that old motherboard - it better be nforce2 based, has good caps. Reply
dEad0r - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkWindows 7 ftw! Reply
evilsopure - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkWINDOWS 7 RC is already my main OS... it's a whole lot easier to live with than Vista. The difference is very palpable, especially with networked Win 7 machines, but especially with the 'smarter' file Explorer and better PC resources management. Reply
Ikonomi - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkI'm very much looking forward to your newest SSD test results, especially the OCZ Vertex EX SLC drive. I think it should be a worthy contender to the Intel solution.
And honestly, I'd love it if you switched over to Windows 7 as soon as possible. Windows 7 works FABulously with solid state drives, intelligently disabling performance tweaks meant for traditional, rotating drives, and aligning the drive properly on initial format. From what I've read, the RC currently sends the trim command, but I don't know if any drives have firmware to support it yet. I'm excited about the new OCZ Vertex firmware, which will support trim. Until then we're all stuck with Wiper.exe. But really, Windows 7 and SSDs just go hand in hand. I installed 7 the night I got my Vertex 60GB, and the experience has been flawless. Reply
Morbidrod - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkSSD's rock. Used them since their early appearance on ebay and was ammazed by the speed of my freshly installed system.
The older ones are too slow to use anymore but still enjoy the speed of the OCZ core and solid.
The Vertex is a must and i will get one when i get home in 2 months.
Hope you have your SSD update done by then.
Thanks for the effort you put in your SDD stories Anand, have read them all.
Big thanks, gr Morbid Reply
ltcommanderdata - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkThey technically are mobile chips, but it'd be great if you could bench some original Yonah Core Duo chips. They were sold as mobile on desktop applications and had early use as media boxes so they have a relevant comparison point for desktops besides being the origins of the Merom and Nehalem micro-architectures.
And while you are testing the Nehalem Mac Pro, it'd be great if you could add those numbers to your charts as well. If you have older Mac Pros, it'd be great to see how dual Clovertowns, dual Harpertowns, and dual Gainestown compare to Penryn and Bloomfield.
I'll put in a plug again for the 3.73GHz Pentium Extreme Edition 965 dual core Presler as well. Reply
Sabresiberian - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkFirst time I've been even mildly intersted in an Apple product since the Lisa. It's awesome that you will be reviewing it with your processor upgrade article!
I'm hoping this leads to a next-gen dual CPU mainboard market; come on Asus, EVGA, if you're going to charge us $400 for a mainboard let's get some dual-CPU action too!
:D Reply
marraco - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkWin7: Yes, I installed the RC1 just to test it, but almost never utilized back the XP.
And no. Is not the same performance that Vista. Vista did NOT worked. Win7 works.
SSD: what matters on the end of the day, is how much performance I can buy on a budget.
I can buy a fast 120 Gb OCZ Vertex. but would consider also investing on those options at the same cost:
1-120 GB OCZ Vertex.
2-Same cost on RAID0 of smallest (and cheaper) SSD disks.
3-JBOD RAID of 30/60 Gb SSD and 1Tb HDD, with a good defragmenter software.
4-Same cost on 4 (or maybe 8) 7200rpm 1Tb Hdd, using only the first 120 Gb. since it would use only the fastest tracks, it would have an amazing read /write speed, and the heads would no move, so the latency (and noise) would be reduced at the minimun, and the caché will add (4x1Tbx32Mb would have 120Mb of caché). Reply
MadMan007 - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI understand where people are coming from when they say use Win 7 for SSDs but I don't think you should until it's gone gold. Regardless of how good the RC is or how many people have no problems it's still not a retail OS and shouldn't be used exclusively for testing right now. Reply
Zorlac - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI read the Windows 7 blog on SSD and they made a bunch of changes to optimize the OS, so saying that Vista is no different than 7 is not true.
I say you should move to 7 for testing SSD. I am also curious to know which SSDs currently on the market are properly communicating with Windows 7 at first install and telling the OS that the drive is a SSD and not a HDD so 7 properly optimizes.
Also, what is the status on TRIM for Intel SSDs? Is it true that Intel has been working on their own SSD defrag utility??? (possibly just a rumor considering most believe defrag is not needed). Reply
Nihility - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI've been using 7 for just about 6 months and it's been a great experience. Really brings some love to Microsoft.
Since there's no difference between Vista and 7 I say go ahead an switch. The SSD review will be much more real that way.
Keep in mind that 7 could change until the RTM (not very likely but possible).
Vista was fun for the past 2.5 years but now we can let it die just like XP should have and let 7 take the reigns :)
Thanks for all your hard work, love the articles. Your SSD reviews are like no others. Reply
slashbinslashbash - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkInstead of getting rid of the "shorter bar = better" benchmarks (they are useful after all), why not make a simple interface change and keep them? I have two thought on how this could be done.
1) Move all the "shorter = better" benchmarks to the bottom of the page, and keep the "larger = better" ones at the top. That way you're not switching back and forth as you read through the benchmarks.
2) On "shorter = better" benchmarks, have the bars originate on the right side of the graphic instead of the left side. This way the shorter bars would still be better, but now there would be a consistent "farther to the right = better" that might be helpful in avoiding confusion. Reply
uuwuu - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkHow about reparamaterizing the shorter is better bars to something that works as longer is better. One way to do this would be to consider the absolute value of the difference between every piece of hardware and the worst performer. The worst performer would be equal to zero.
There is probably an infinite number of other ways to make something like that work, and although the information's value would be diminished because it is only based on the results (and doesn't truly depict the actual results), but it would be valid in comparing relative performance. If something like this is done, I think it'd be important to keep the actual results viewable to ensure that there is no bias (I love you guys, but there are always jerks that are like "wow way to give AMNvidintel an advantage to make them look better") Reply
tynopik - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkthe problem isn't so much confusion (although that is an issue) as it is non-linearity
especially when charting widely different capabilities (from Atom to Nehalem), the top-end get compressed to nothingness
for instance going from 10 seconds to 9 seconds (10% improvement) is more impressive than going from 200 seconds to 190 seconds (5% improvement)
yet the 5% difference is 10 times longer than the 10% difference!
> (they are useful after all),
fortunately it's easy to convert them into linear scales
for instance, instead of saying how long it took to compress 1GB in winrar, say how many MB/sec it could compress Reply
strikeback03 - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkExcept that saving 10 seconds at a time is more useful than saving one second per operation if it is a common operation. Reply
tynopik - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkexcept that you're trying to get a relative idea of the performance of the CPUs
if 1 cpu is twice as fast as another, that should be readily apparent without having to judge what the length of a bar means in different sections of the graph
so it might only be 1 second on this task of this size, but it could be 100 seconds on a different or larger task
just for example, imagine a comparison of cpus from 286 to Nehalem that measured how long it took pkzip to compress 20MB
an athlon XP would be indistinguishable from an i7 920
in reality the 920 trounces the athlon XP, but the legend is so compressed it becomes hard to tell Reply
fredsky - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkhi anand !
- win 7 : GO for it. i've just purchased a GSKILL falcon SSD (brother or OZC vertex), and done lots of benchmarks for photoshop. i compared XP64 and win7 64, win7 is much more efficient. so SSD + win7 are the winners! on my old setup, vista is much slower and problematic than win7.
- RAID SSD : as many readers, i would like to see the performance difference between OCZ vertex SSD :
2 RAIDed 30GB, 2 RAIDed 60GB, single 60GB, single 128GB.
because 2x60GB cost about the same as 1x128GB.
chrisf6969 - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkGo ahead to Vista 2.0, errr, I mean Win7. I've been dual-booting it and it feels ready for launch!
One request: Can you test a G.Skill Falcon 128Gb SSD. Price/Gb looks pretty good, and they're quoting some impressive performance #'s. I'd like to see you do your REAL world testing on it! PLEASE! Reply
chrisf6969 - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkP.S. Are you going to RAID two Vertex 30Gb's as they're so cheap, seems like you could get some really impressive # for $200+. Reply
DrSmith - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI think the article should include xp & win 7. Vista yuk...
With explanation with REALLY how 'worn down' does a mlc drive become with heavy usage. I have a vertex & its fast w reads & writes. But I keep hearing these stories on them 'not lasting' ? How long do they last? compared against SLC? do the storage cells wear out??? Reply
ciparis - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkWindows 7? Go for it, Anand. I think many of your readers are already there, and many more are considering it. Best OS they've ever released, even as an RC. Reply
coda6 - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkBut can we get an in-depth HTPC article for the Anand site? :D Reply
gwolfman - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkThanks Anand, greatly appreciated! Reply
onisaur - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkif other benchmarks have shown no tangible difference between 7 and Vista, by all means, go with 7. we're here for the relative performance anyhow, not the exact cloning of your rig for exact times.
on older pc's. to me, the base of the world is a p3-500. the old gateway/compaq cast iron horses still run, still browse the net, and with a new harddrive are zippy enough. i see tons of cel-1200 tualatins that effectively match the p4-1.3-1.5's to cover the 'painfully almost' catagory. and consider a p4-2.4 just because there really are that many dell dim2400's still out there.
on the ssd's: with intel slc 32gb ~$400usd, 64gb ~$780usd, i only lost $20 going with raid0 32gb's on an ich10r. hdtach3 296MB/sec avg, 496MB/sec burst. since so many of the ssd's are ~2x the cost as you go up in size, PLEASE consider putting raid0 smaller ssd's on benchmarks. 60GB is enough to survive on a boot drive. two 32gb supertalent's for ~$270 total should plausibly destroy an intel slc x25-e 64gb at $500 cheaper, and 3.5" brackets mounting two 2.5" drives make it all too convenient.
on pivotal boot and app load tests, consider distinguishing "with same drive swap file", "with other drive swap file", and "with zero swap file". Reply
thebandit - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkAren't we still missing an article on ddr2 vs ddr3 ? what happened to that ? Reply
h0kiez - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - link1 more vote for switch now. I'm using it exclusively, and if there's a difference with respect to SSD performance related to trim support or anything else, I want to know. Reply
vol7ron - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI would like to see the P4 2.8E (worst overclocker) in the bench comparison, as well as the Core2 E6600. I jumped on early with the Core2, able to pick one up before they hit the market. I think it's about time to get an upgrade.
The other thing that might be nice to see is the performance w/ water cooling and regular hair cooling (fan or just a spreader).
As for SSDs, I'll be looking forward to your SLC comparison :) as well as the results from the 8core NeX (Nehalem-Ex) Reply
vol7ron - Friday, May 29, 2009 - linkby hair, I meant *air* Reply
VaultDweller - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - link"How much would you guys hate me if I switched to Windows 7 sooner rather than later?"
No hate at all. I'm in the process of switching everything over to Windows 7 RC (my main desktop has been on Windows 7 since the Beta), so Windows 7 results are most important to me.
I'm sure there will be those that disagree, though. Reply
JonnyDough - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - link"Although our recent article showed that it's not really any faster than Vista"
Dammit. I was really hoping that Windows 7 would offer some type of performance increase over Vista, not just better SSD performance. Oh well, I guess I'll take what I can get. I really dislike the overlordishness of mainstream operating systems these days, but if it helps improve overall ease of use then I suppose it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Reply
cordas - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI must admit I am as excited as the next guy when it comes to SSDs, i can't wait for them to become an affordable viable option for a boot drive, nevermind them becoming big enough to use as my main drive (minimum of 1TB currently).
However I am thinking of replacing my aging 500gb HDD with a nice new spangly 1TB drive and have been looking for reviews of said beasties and have been unable to find a review done in the last 12+ months anywhere....
So how about seeing if you can grab the latest and greatest HDDs on the market and giving them a spin to tell us what to get and what to avoid. Reply
Automan - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkDefinitely would like to see you move to Windows 7. I've been running the x64 edition on my daily use laptop since Beta 1 and have had no unexpected significant issues with it. Go for it! Reply
samspqr - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - link* thanks for the status report
* that WePC project looks a great iniciative, let's see what comes out of it
* thanks for letting me know I don't want an SSD drive yet
* that 64 cores nehalem system looks like a 3D artist's wet dream, but I guess the price is still going to be quite a bit higher than that of a comparable render farm based on more standard equipment Reply
Drazick - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkHello Anand.
What about checking the SSD Optimizations made in the Chipset level?
Are the newer chipsets of Intel / AMD / nVidia any better using those drives? Does each of them has plans on making optimized chipset for SSD?
Thanks... Reply
Pointwood - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI've been using it as my primary OS since the RC release and it's seems to generally perform better than Vista. I've only had one slight problem and that was getting my Colormunki monitor calibrator working. Win7 wasn't able to find a driver but I found it myself and got it working.
So I say "GO GO GO" in regards to switching to Win7. Reply
feraltoad - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkSwitch to Win7!
OK, I'm already using the RC, but it really is great. Plus, it's not different enough from Vista to really make difference if you go ahead and switch, and if the adoption of the Beta and RC are any indication then Win7 adoption will be out the roof! Reply
Live - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkPeople already hate vista so switch to vista 2 by all means.
I would also suggest that the poll system you implemented a while back would be perfect to use if you want to ask a straightforward question like this. I wouldn't have to ramble on in my broken English and I wouldn't have to read every answer to see the results. Just a thought... Reply
Live - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkI forgot to add that I really appreciate articles like this one and that a edit function is needed. Reply
thebeastie - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkYeah looking forward to it, just like the latest Terminator movie :)
JonnyDough - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkOr any Christian Bale movie... Reply
Souka - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkCheck out "The Machinist" if ya havn't seen it... Reply
FlameDeer - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkAfter reading this update, really amazed with such a wide scope coverage that you are currently working hard on. Much anticipating with what will coming next from AnandTech.
Thank you Anand & keep up the good work. :) Reply
iwodo - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkOn the Bench, the main reason is that people want to know how much performance we are getting for our money. I think the recent economy has changes some of our thinking in spending.
The past few years we had experience upgrading parts with not much performance difference. It is interesting to see how previous CPU fair with current generation. And finally realize the days we had improvements like 386 to 486 and Pentium are over.
SSD - The mystery of multiple channel SSD has yet to solved. Is it possible to have more then 10 channel SSD drive in an 2.5" SSD. If not what is the maximum possible channel, i.e what performance should we expect from future SSD.
EX seems to me an destructive product. Previous Benchmarks shows how much performance / watt the Nehalem was able to deliver. May be WoW servers can finally fit more players inside a Single Realm? Reply
TA152H - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkIf you think about it, it does make sense.
The biggest jump, of course, was the 286, arguable the best processor Intel ever made for its time. It was extremely fast, so much so that I couldn't believe it the first time I used it. Going from a PC to a PC/AT was a jump that was mind-boggling. On top of that, it added virtual memory, and the ability to multitask. It was a huge improvement.
The 386 sucked, although it did move to 32-bit and added the now worthless Virtual 86 mode. The performance was poor though, as it ran like a 286 at the same clock speed, clock normalized. But, it moved the platform forward.
The 486 was a nice processor, for sure. It didn't add anything new, but ran like a raped ape. I remember how we fought over the first 486 PC made, an upgraded version of the PS/2 Model 70-A21, which was called the B21. It cut compiles down from 30 minutes to about 18 compared to a 386/25, and it was only running at 25 MHz, and did not have any L2 cache, unlike the 386 which had a 64K external cache.
The Pentium wasn't so great. It ran at poor clock speeds at first, and when I used it, I found the performance quite poor. I used to say Intel's odd numbered processors were all bad, and their even ones good and this was further proof. I went from a 486 at 100 MHz, which were available, to a Pentium at 66 MHz, and was entirely unimpressed. It ran hotter than Hell too. But, in time, they got it right, with shrinks and the Pentium MMX (although MMX wasn't so important, there were other enhancements). The FDIV bug was kind of funny too, and how idiots overreacted to it. Still, I have one of the processors and I hope it will go up in value.
The Pentium Pro was another initial disappointment. It ran 16-bit code very poorly, although the fault lies more with Microsoft than Intel since they gave Intel guidance that 32-bit code would dominate by 1995 when the Pentium Pro was released. It was really expensive too, because of the on-processor L2 cache (which was really on the same packaging, but not part of the processor), which could not be tested before joined with the processor, so if one were bad, they were both thrown out. The Pentium II addressed the segment register issue of the Pentium Pro, so improved 16-bit code somewhat, and obviously what we use today is still based on the Pentium Pro design. It was, of course, and even number (P6) design, so was good.
The Pentium 4, an odd number design, of course, sucked far worse than the Pentium and 386. It was much hotter, like the Pentium compared to the 486, but the performance sucked too, which made it a double threat.
Now we are back to the Pentium Pro design, so it's only reasonable we don't see dramatic changes since it's really not a new processor at all, but just improvements to an existing line, like the Pentium MMX, or Athlon XP (I'd use Prescott as an example too, but was it an improvement?????).
It makes sense though. Really, virtually nothing in PCs is new, and never has been. Virtually every concept has been taken from mainframes, or supercomputers, and microcomputers were just low cost implementations of those concepts. When you had a scarcity of transistors, there were many very good things you could not implement, but you wanted to. That low lying fruit is gone, and adding transistors gives greatly diminished returns. It's like the improvement with any technology. If you look at cars, jets, etc... once the technology matures, the improvements slow down and you get gradual improvements.
I'd like to see x86 die, but I guess it will not happen. Processors cost more, perform worse, and use more power because of this miserable instruction set. It's not a lot per processor, but when you multiply it by the millions upon millions of processors that are afflicted with the x86 instruction set, the costs are staggering. That's not even counting the migraines it has caused by people who have to code in assembly for it. It's gruesome.
yacoub - Thursday, June 04, 2009 - linkGreat post, but you forgot the first Celeron, the 300a that overclocked to 450MHz without breaking a sweat. In my book, the best bang-for-the-buck Intel CPU right up through the Core2Duo.
This was in the early days of overclocking, just over a decade ago, and it was a dream to be able to run a chip at 150% its rated speed with zero changes to things like voltages (heck most motherboards didn't even support voltage changes back then, iirc).
Ah... those were the days. :) Reply
JonnyDough - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkI agree with what you said about the economy changing things. It isn't just that though. Computer technology isn't gaining nearly as quickly, and the need for new systems - at least in the consumer space is less pressing. The dollar is far more important now than it was. Purchases even at the business level are determined even more by cost than in the 90s, when changes to performance was more heavily weighed factor in IT decisions.
This is why businesses that want to survive have to be broadly invested. For example, if a company that manufacturers hard disk drives exclusively fails to get going on SSD early enough, it will be facing extinction.
If you're GM, it pays to invest in something other than just big gas guzzling automobiles. :-D Let's hope the Chevy Volt has some real value. I have my doubts that it will be as popular as they'd hoped, but I do think the car merits an award for ingenuity. They took conventional thinking and flipped it on its head, I just wish they'd done it 20 years ago. With their marketing dept they might've been able to put Ford out of business. Reply
dragunover - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkRemoving the necessity for expensive server RAM? Someone's gonna hate that, and someone's gonna love that.
Personally I'm the latter of the two. Reply
Jaybus - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkThe trade off is a more expensive motherboard, though, that has buffer memory. It wasn't clear to me where this memory would be, separate ICs soldered to the mb or integrated into the chipset. My guess is the former, at least to begin with, in which case RAM manufacturers won't hate the change nearly as much. Reply
tshen83 - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkInstead of subsidizing FB-DIMM's AMB chip on each DIMM sold because of extra power consumed, now Intel can charge for the SMB chips individually(8 socket system would require a whooping 32 SMB chips).
Depending on how much Intel wants to price those SMB chips, it could make or break Nehalem-EX's platform. (A simple $10 per SMB would easily mount to 320 dollars cost to the motherboard manufacturers, which could then turn into a 600 dollars+ premium on the motherboard)
This approach is indeed the correct one from a technical perspective. Basically Intel wants all the memory premium associated with Nehalem-EX platform by forcing the memory makers into producing commodity DDR3 DIMMs, not FB-DIMM2s.
128 threads + 128 DIMMs...this is porn. Reply
KentState - Tuesday, June 02, 2009 - linkA $600 premium isn't going to add much to the overall cost. I would bet that an 8-way server with 128GB of ram is going to run $40k+. Reply
sprockkets - Wednesday, May 27, 2009 - linkLooking forward to it. Reply
vol7ron - Thursday, May 28, 2009 - linkDid he say he's gonna compare the new SLCs to the X25-M. Isn't the X25-M an MLC? I know Intel puts out a decent SSD, but is that a fare comparison? Reply
vol7ron - Friday, May 29, 2009 - linkby fare I meant fair Reply
sbuckler - Monday, June 01, 2009 - linkIf they are of a similar size/cost then obviously it's fair to compare them as people looking for a drive of that size/cost will be able to pick either. Reply
vol7ron - Monday, June 01, 2009 - linkI thought cost was almost negligent with regards to the enthusiast market :)
I thought you compare on comparable performance and then evaluate the costs; since, after all, prices change due to rebates, sales, and demand. Reply


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In yet another startling example of bodies that matter, a report released today accuses Corrections Canada of negligence in the death of Martin Blackwind, a Native inmate. Blackwind intentionally severed a major artery in his arm, and then hit the emergency button in his cell. It took ten minutes for staff members to call an ambulance.
According to CTV:
The report, which is based on two separate investigations, found that:
- Staff failed to extend first aid.
- Staff did not determine what Blackwind's injuries were.
- They left him alone and locked in his cell, bleeding to death, for long stretches.
- They did not call for an ambulance until 10 minutes after the man's distress call.
Four corrections staff have been disciplined for failing to administer first aid and failing to take action to save a human life.
Their punishments range from 10 to 20 days without pay.
- Videotaping responses to medical emergencies.
- Delivering a "diversity awareness-sensitivity program" to all correctional staff.
- Sharing all information related to inmate deaths and injuries with police in a timely fashion.
- Developing a response policy to allegation of discrimination.
Corrections Canada says it will respond fully to the recommendations and that an investigation into the discrimination allegations has already been convened.
Watch A Video of the story here
Unfortunately this is not an isolated incident. On October 19, 2007, 19 year old Ashley Smith was left to asphyxiate in her cell. According to CTV, Staff members allegedly saw the girl on a video monitoring system with a ligature around her neck. However, officials reportedly did not intervene immediately, believing she wasn't seriously harming herself. Smith suffered from a mental illness.
How could it not be readily obvious that someone is trying to commit suicide when they are viewed putting a noose around their neck? Even if they thought that she was not serious, they had an obligation to intervene immediately, especially with the knowledge that she was mentally ill. I suppose saving a life was just to much effort. After all, she was a convicted criminal, why should it matter if she lived or died? Never mind that she had her whole life in front of her. Who cares what she potentially could have contributed to society. She was just a woman, and we all know what female lives are worth — nothing.
Travis McDonald, 36; Karen Eves, 52; Valentino Burnett, 47, and Blaine Phibbs, 31, have all been charged in connection to her death at Kitchener's Grand Valley Institution.
The charges fall under a section of the Criminal Code that relates to "omitting to do anything that it is his (or her) duty to do, shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons."
Another corrections officer is facing charges in connection with a separate incident with Smith at a Saskatoon prison.
Correctional supervisor John Tarala was fired from his position last September, accused of assaulting Smith.
We place so much emphasis on punishment, that once an individual is incarcerated we fail to see them as fellow human beings. The Head of the Correctional Officers Union disputed the report in Blackwells case claiming, "we did the best we could under the circumstances." The best that they could do was to let a man bleed to death. To them Blackwell was not a man that had a family that loved him, or a life that was worth living in any regard, he was a murderer. Yes he committed a heinous crime, but he was more than that crime. No act, no matter how violent or shocking is totally descriptive of a person. Negligence in his death should have been punished by more than a 20 day suspension. Prison officials may not have inflicted the wound that led to his death however, their negligence and apathy, certainly were factors in his death.
Smith and Blackwind were both negotiating multiple locations of stigmatization, and marginalization. Blackwind was an aboriginal man, and Smith was a mentally ill woman in the Canadian penal system. Considering that we live in a ableist, racist society, is it really shocking that they were allowed to die? Both Smith and Blackwind stand as a testimony to what bodies matter in Canadian society. If you want justice in this country, you must be white, not mentally ill and certainly not incarcerated. Any combination of the above, and you could end up dead.


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AMD Discloses Bobcat & Bulldozer Architectures at Hot Chips 2010by Anand Lal Shimpi on 8/24/2010 1:33 AM EST
76 Comments
Back to Article
SuperiorSpecimen - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkLet's see some competition outside of the price game! Reply
mrmojo1 - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkAwesome article, can't wait to see their release :) Should be very interesting! Reply
crawmm - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI drooled on my laptop reading this. Thank you, Anand. Good overview. And fun reading after a day of tedious (and mindless) work. Reply
lothar98 - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - link"In many ways the architecture looks to be on-par with what Intel has done with Nehalem/Westmere."
I truly hope that this does not end up to be how things roll out. It has been far too long since we have seen good competition throughout the range of consumer CPU lineup. Currently we have options and competition in the mid-low end giving us exceptional bang for our buck. While one would never say you can get the best bang for your buck in the mid or high end everyone can still appreciate having options as well as getting value. Reply
Freddo - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkBobcat seems very interesting to me, I hope it won't take long until we see a good netbook with it, with good build quality (metal, no plastic toy), a HDMI port and 2GB RAM. Reply
Mike1111 - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI'm wondering: what about AMD powered notebooks? And I don't mean netbooks or CULV notebooks. Looks like bulldozer won't come to notebooks until 2012, which would mean that AMD would most likely have to compete with Intel's 22nm Sandy Bridge successor, Ivy Bridge. Reply
Penti - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkLlano APU, it's briefly mentioned. It's where we're at. Basically K10-based 4-core with integrated DX11 GPU. Better then today but not much of a competition. Reply
mino - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkThe GPU in the is supposed to be at least 5x the speed of current IGP performance.
Basically you get a "discrete" GPU for a price of IGP ... Reply
MonkeyPaw - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI can see Bobcat scaling upward in notebooks. It's multi-core capable, and is a fully-functional CPU. A quad core Bobcat with better-than-Intel graphics should be a very fulfilling product for notebooks in the mid-range, while providing good battery life (thank you, power gating). Anything above that could be handled by low-voltage Bulldozers as a premium offering. To me, that seems like a better solution than Intel's, where the Atom to Core increase is so severe. Reply
Kiijibari - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkEhh guys ...
MMX is depracated in 64bit mode together with x87 and 3Dnow!:
The x87, MMX, and 3DNow! instruction sets are deprecated in 64-bit modes. The instructions sets are still present for backward compatibility for 32-bit mode; however, to avoid compatibility issues in the future, their use in current and future projects is discouraged.
Why on Earth should AMD build in 2 special MMX pipes in a brand new µarchitecture ?
AMD just announced that they got rid of 3Dnow!, MMX pipes make no sense at all.
You probably mean XOP, dont you ? Reply
mino - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkFrom the HW design POW, those pipes are "MMX/3Dnow" class stuff.
They run SSE3, but they are still MMX-class.
There is a reason Bulldozer has "FMAC" written there ... Reply
Kiijibari - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - link... it is stupid to name a circuit after a deprecated ISA extension and not after its function.
If its doing stuff like 3dnow and mmx then call it Shuffel / permutation pipeline but not MMX ...
The FMAC is the best example .. why is it written FMAC in that case and not SSE5/AVX/XOP ? Reply
KonradK - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkDepracated does not mean prohibited. Also there are existing MMX programs and other than Windows 64bit operating systems and compilers other than MSVSC.
MMX and x87 is prohibited in 64bit kernel code.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff545910%2... Reply
iwod - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkFrom the design of Bulldozer's FPU it is cleared that AMD want Multi Threaded FPU to run on OpenCL. While the dual Integer looks interesting now. It is up against the SandyBridge, the architecture that is suppose to leap again like Pentium 4 to C2D. And if Bulldozer comes any later, it will be up against the die shrink of SandyBridge, Ivy Bridge. Things dont look so good in here.
It is mainstream / low end that looks very interesting. I am currently using a Pentium M 1.8Ghz Dothan with 2GB DDR Ram. With a Radeon 1600 Graphics. I dont get hardware acceleration from GPU, 720P is just barely playable with some very fast software decoder. It is fast enough to watch some 460p youtube and most of my day web serving.
Now if Bobcat have similar or higher IPC then Dothan. A Quad Core Bobcat with Radeon 5000 64 SP will still be within reasonable die size on 40nm, It will be cheap when it drops to 32nm or lower. Most of us dont need SUPER FAST computer. And Bobcat with Radeon 5 Series or Higher Plus a Fast SSD are all we need. Reply
aegisofrime - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI don't recall Sandy Bridge being a revolutionary leap. Everyone has been saying that it's more of evolutionary, the main difference being the addition of AVX.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that AMD announces later today what socket Bulldozer will be on... I desperately need more video encoding performance. I have a AM2+ motherboard and that bloody 1055T is singing it's siren song to me every night. If Bulldozer is on AM3 I can get an AM3 board and the 1055T and do a quick upgrade to Bulldozer.
Come on AMD. Your customers need more information to make an informed decision! Reply
mino - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkBuldozer gen1 == primarily servers
=> 16/12-core (MCM) Socket G34 (current platfrom)
=> 8/6/4-core Socket G32 (current platfrom)
Bulldozer Desktop (hopefully before X-mas 2011)
=> 8?/6/4-core Socket AM3R2(or AM3+, whatever they call it) Reply
Pirks - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkHuh? You want more video encoding perfomance and you think about upgrading CPU? What kind of idiocy is that? Use 480GTX with Badaboom and your video encoding speed won't be matched by CPUs of year 2020 or maybe even 2030 :P Reply
aegisofrime - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkDon't talk if you don't know what you are talking about. No GPU encoder out there is able to match x264 quality or SPEED wise. And the huge flaw in your statement is that Badaboom doesn't even support Fermi GPUs right now.
Have you done any serious video encoding before, or are you just trolling as usual? Reply
ChronoReverse - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkIndeed. I would try out CUDA encoders every once in a while in hopes that I could at least get the quality of x264 at MINIMUM quality but they can't even match that.
Since x264 at minimum quality encodes slightly quicker (on my quad core) a CUDA encoder does (on my GTX260) and still yields better quality, I really appreciate faster CPU's. Reply
mapesdhs - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - link
Hate to say it but unless GPU acceleration is available, the i7 is a far better
choice for video encoding. I still use a 6000+ for most tasks, but numerous
article reviews made it quite clear that AMD was not the best choice for
video encoding, so I went with an i7 860 4GHz. Pricing was surprisingly good,
speed is excellent.
Ian. Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkIf you're encoding using Adobe software, ditch AMD until Bulldozer. Adobe's software makes heavy use of SSE 4.1 instructions, which current AMD chips lack, and the extra two cores don't pick up the slack compared to a fast i7. Reply
flyck - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkFrom the design of Bulldozer's FPU it is cleared that AMD want Multi Threaded FPU to run on OpenCL.
Not sure what you mean with that? (it is true they want to abuse that in the future with fusion) but at this moment i see: Sandybridge 2hreads -> one FPU, Bulldozer 2 threads -> one FPU Reply
BitJunkie - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI think he's picking up on the point that this general purpose design is going to favour integer operations over floating point. Looking at this architecture from the perspective of someone wanting to perform a lot of floating point matrix calculus then the performance improvement of each "core" is going to be proportionally less than for integer calcs.
So what he's saying is that quite clearly AMD believe that general purpose CPUs are just that and have designed for a well defined balance of FP and Interger operations i.e. If you want more FLOPS go talk to the GPU? Reply
stalker27 - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - link"And if Bulldozer comes any later, it will be up against the die shrink of SandyBridge, Ivy Bridge. Things dont look so good in here."
Basically, you've contradicted yourself right here:
"Most of us dont need SUPER FAST computer."
True, and true.... Ivy will probably be faster than Bulldozer (speculatively) as is Nehalem to Stars, but most people, i.e. the "cash cow" won't buy these expensive products. Instead they will focus on mid to low end computers which by their performance is more then/or enough for their needs.
So things might not look good in reviews and bench tops, but in the stores and on people's bank balances they will look pretty good. Reply
jabber - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkHooray!
I'm glad at last some folks are waking up to the fact that having the fastest or most expensive CPU means absolutely jack!
All the latest fastest CPU stuff just means a little bit more internet traffic for tech review sites.
The rest of the world doesnt give a damn.
All the real world is interested in is the best CPU for the buck in a $400 PC box to run W7 and Office on. AMD needs to get a proper marketing dept to start telling folks that.
All AMD has to do is produce good performing chips for a good price. It dosent need a CPU to beat the best of Intel.
The real world lost interest in CPU performance the minute dual cores arrived and they could finally run IE/Office and a couple of mainframe sessions without it grinding to a halt.
I bet Intel gives out more review samples of its top CPU than it sells. Reply
JPForums - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - link"All the real world is interested in is the best CPU for the buck in a $400 PC box to run W7 and Office on. AMD needs to get a proper marketing dept to start telling folks that."
"The real world lost interest in CPU performance the minute dual cores arrived and they could finally run IE/Office and a couple of mainframe sessions without it grinding to a halt."
Apparently us Engineers aren't part of "The rest of the world".
Try running products from the likes of Mentor Graphics, Cadence, and Synopsis for reasonably large designs. Check out what a difference each new CPU makes in PROe (assuming sufficient GPU horsepower). Run some large Matlab simulations, Visual studio compilations, and Xilinx builds. You don't even have to get out of college before you run into many of these scenarios.
Trust me when I say that we care about the next greatest thing.
An extra $1000 dollars on a CPU is easily justified when companies are billing $100+ per Engineering hour (not to be confused with take home pay). Reply
BitJunkie - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkExactly so: An example would be a 24hr calculation to perform a detailed 3D finite element analysis. This is not unusual using highly spec'd Xeon work stations from your vendor of choice.
It might take 5 to 10 days to set up a model including testing of different aspects: Mesh density, discretisation errors, boundary effects, parametric studies. The set up time with numerous supporting pre-analysis runs is what really costs. Anything we can do to reduce this is worth while.
The above would be the typical process BEFORE considering a batch-job on a HPC cluster if we wanted to look at a series of load cases etc.
Time is money. Reply
mapesdhs - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - link
I know a number of movie studios who love every extra bit of
CPU muscle they can get their hands on. Rendering really
hammers current hardware. One place has more than 7000
XEON cores, but it's never enough. Short of writing specialised
sw to exploit shared-memory machines that use i7 XEONs (which
has its own costs), the demand for ever higher processing
speed will always persist. Visual effects complexity constantly
increases as artists push the boundaries of what is possible.
And this is just one example market segment. As BitJunkie
suggests, these issues surface everywhere.
Another good example: the new Cosmos machine in the UK
which contains 128 x 6-core i7 XEON (Nehalem EX) with
2TB RAM (ie. 768 cores total). This is a _single system_,
not a cluster (SGI Altix UV). Nothing less is good enough for
running modern cosmological simulations. There will be
much effort by those using the system on achieving good
efficiency with 512+ cores; atm many HPC tasks don't scale
well beyond 32 to 64 cores. Point being, improving the
performance of a single core is just as important as general
core scaling for such complex tasks. SGI's goal is to produce
a next-gen UV system which will scale to 262144 cores in
a single shared-memory system (32768 x 8-core CPUs).
You can never have enough computing power. :D
Ian. Reply
stalker27 - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkYou're 1% of the market... for you, Intel and AMD have reserved cherry-picked chips that they can charge you 1K for but at the same time offer you that needed speed. How's that?
BTW, he said real world, not rest of the world. That makes you somewhat of an illusion. But don't take it the bad way... more like most of us would dream working in an environment full of hot setups, big projects and big bux, unlike in the real world where you have to mop the floor after debugging for 8 hours straight... if they don't force you to work extra two hours without pay, never-mind that before you start the workday you have to go to various bureaucratic public clerk offices to deal with stuff that was supposed to be taken care by secretaries... which got fired for no apparent reason some time ago.
So stop moaning... you have it good, even as 1%. Reply
Makaveli - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linklol if AMD and intel followed your logic we would all still be running Pentium 2 and socket A Athlons silly boy.
You make yourself look like an ass when you make a generalized statement like that, as if you are speaking for the rest of the world.
As that other guy pointed out some of us do more than just office work on our pc's! Reply
stalker27 - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkThose "some of you" don't make them R&D money... which, silly boy that you are... got you those fast chips in the first place.
Oh boy, how important some people think they are. Reply
iwod - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkDeleted: Reply
iwod - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI am not a Professional Engineer, but i do have my degree in Electrics Engineering. I fully understand how Models and Simulations, MatLabs, Video Encoding, or CG Rendering requires as much Performance as it can get.
But to the world, I am sorry you are right. You are exactly not counted in "the rest of the world". You are inside a professional niche whether you like it or not. That includes even Hardcore PC gamers, which is shrinking day by day due to completion from consoles. No this is not to say PC Gaming to going to die. It just means it is getting smaller. And this trend is not going to change until something dramatic happens.
The rest of the world, counted by BILLIONS, are moving, or looking to move to iPad, Netbook, Cheap Notebook, or something that just get things done as cheaply as possible. It is the reason why Netbook took off. Why Atom based All in One PC took off. No one in the marketing department knew such Gigantic market exists.
Lastly, i want to emphasis, by the "world" i really mean the World. Not an American view of the world which would just literally be America by itself. China, India, Brazil, and even countries like Japan are having trouble selling high end PC. Reply
jabber - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkYep, all you computer engineer folks and render farms etc. account for a very small minority in the "world of computer users". You are not mainstream users.
In general terms the world isnt really that interested anymore in CPU performance improvements.
Most folks out there just want smaller and lower power so they can carry a computer around with them. They dont give a damn what the CPU architecture is.
The leviathan CPU approach by AMD and Intel could go the way of the dinosaur for mainstream computing. ARM could well be the new mainstream CPU leader in just five years.
Just think outside your own little box. Reply
B3an - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkRidiculous small minded comment.
Render farms and the like may not be mainstream, but gaming is, then theres things like video encoding, servers, workstations, databases, all very popular mainstream stuff that millions of people use and the internet also relies on.
A very large percentage of computer users will always want faster CPU's.
If Intel or AMD did what you think most people want, then nothing would progress either. No 3D interfaces, no artificial intelligence, no anything, as the power needed for it would never be there. Reply
BitJunkie - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkIt all comes down to usage models right? The point is that AMD and Intel are trying to capture as many usage models as possible within a given architecture.
This is why modular design is kind of appealing - you can bolt stuff together to hit the desired spot in the thermal-computational envelope.
The thing that "engineers" fall foul of is that there is a divergence going on. On the one hand general computing is dominating, with a desire to drive down power usage. On the other hand there is the same appetite for improved computational performance as we get smarter and more ambitious in the way we tackle engineering problems.
The issue is that both camps are looking to the same architecture for answers.
The reason why that doesnt work for me is that some computations just don't benefit from parallelism - more cores doesn't mean more productivity. Therefore I want to see the few cores that I do use become super efficient at flipping bits on a floating point calculation.
Right now there's no clear answer to that problem - but it will probably come with Fusion and the point at which the GPU takes the role that math co-processors did before being swallowed into the CPU. For this to work we need Microsoft to handle the GPU compute stuff natively within windows so that existing code can execute and not think about what part of the hardware is lifting the load.
Therefore my sincere hope is that GPUs will become the new math co-processors and Windows 8 will make that happen.
Oh, and there's no need for any tribalism here wrt to usage models. It's all good. Reply
jabber - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkNo its not small minded. Its looking at the big picture.
The big picture is that for most users their CPU power needs were reached and surpassed some time ago.
CPUs are not the bottle neck in modern PCs. Storage systems are.
We need better, cheaper and faster storage.
I've been pushing out 1.6Ghz dual core Atoms to 95% of my small business customers and a good chunk of domestics for the past year.
I havent had one moan or complaint that the PCs were not fast enough. Very few customers are hardcore gamers. Gamers are still a small subsection of the computing world.
I'm not asking AMD/Intel to stop research in new and faster CPU designs. Keep going boys its all good.
I'm just saying that the majority of mainstream computing lays along a very different path going forward to those that require power at all costs.
Not all of us need octa-cores at 4Ghz+. A lot of us can get by with a 2Ghz dual core and a half decent 7200rpm HDD.
Most of the PCs I see are still single core. Folks are managing just fine right now.
Plenty folks are now managing with just 1Ghz or less on a mobile device. Thats why Intel are taking ARM more seriously as they see that future mainstream being more low power, mobile based than leviathan mega-core-mega-wattage beasts.
Things will change rapidly over the next three or four years. Reply
Aries1470 - Friday, August 27, 2010 - linkQuote:
"We need better, cheaper and faster storage.
I've been pushing out 1.6Ghz dual core Atoms to 95% of my small business customers and a good chunk of domestics for the past year.
I havent had one moan or complaint that the PCs were not fast enough. Very few customers are hardcore gamers. Gamers are still a small subsection of the computing world.
Well, I for one totally agree. I purchaed last year an Atom 330 dual core, and it does more than enough.
I already had a much more powerful system, of which I use about.... one or twice a month if that! It is a quad core, has 4 gigs and a 2gb 9600 gpu.
I have moved away from gaming and encoding and all that stuff.
The motherboard I have is:
ATOM-GM1-330 of which I imported to Australia from the U.S.A., since the distibuter here does not bring this model.
I have paired it with 4Gb of memory, but using only 3gb, since I am running 32bit systems (XP & win 7)
A Blu-ray writer....
and a LP 5450 used with an adapter from 16x -> 1x
It plays blu-ray great while browsing at the same time!
I browse the internet at the same time as my wife and kid watch a movie on the 50" plasma, with NO stutter.
Needless to say, I got it as a secondary pc... and has become my main pc. It is left on basically 24/7, with NO fan on the cpu! Low power consumption too.
It performs great for the functions I want, and can even play Civ IV on it... but not much else. If I want to play real gaming, I use my other pc.
So for what it is, it works great for my needs! No useless power consumption, does its Boinc too, albeit slow, but still better than my older P2-550... that was still alive a few years ago.
Most people I know, don't use their pc for gaming anymore, mostly for facebook/ twitter and video calling, they have their Wii's & Xbox and one has a PS3...
Ok, end of rant, but to conclude, I concur, your average Joe, has his gaming machine, and his pc is for htpc or not a gaming power pc. Reply
gruffi - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkSandy Bridge, the architecture that is suppose to leap again like Pentium 4 to C2D? Thanks for the joke of the day.
Sandy Bridge looks more like a minor update of Nehalem/Westmere. More load/store bandwidth, improved cache, AVX and maybe a few other little tweaks. Nothing special. I think it will be less of an improvement as Core 2 (Core successor) and Nehalem (Core 2 successor) were.
In many ways Bulldozer looks superior to what Intel has to offer in 2011. Reply
Lonbjerg - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI don't care for "Bobcat"...mediocre performance in a cramped formfactor (netbooks) have as much interest to me as being dragged naked across field filled with broken glass.
The "Bulldozer" looks fine on paper...problem is that so did Phenom.
I look forward to the real reviews, and not PR slices :) Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkComments like this really bother me. You may not care about netbooks, but a lot of people do. Current ones don't pass the grandma test - your grandmother can do whatever task she needs to on them, like check e-mail, browse the internet, watch HD video - and any advance here is welcome.
Generally speaking a netbook is not supposed to be your main machine, but something you can chuck into your bag and take with you and do a little work on here and there. I write a lot, and have to work on other peoples' computers from time to time, so a netbook that doesn't completely suck is invaluable to me. Netbook performance is dismal right now, but Bobcat could successfully fix this market segment.
So no, you're not interested in netbooks and you'd rather be raked through hot coals than purchase one. But that just means they're not useful - TO YOU. There are a lot of people here interested in what Bobcat can do for these portables, and I count myself among them. Reply
Lonbjerg - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkI don't care that many people care for mediocore performance in a crappy format.
Not matter what you do with a netbook, it will alway be lacking.
I don't care what gandma wants (she will buy intel BTW, due to Intel's brand recognition)
I don't care for Atom either.
Or i3
Or i5
Or Phenom
I do care about a replacement for my i7 @ 3.5GHz... Reply
Dustin Sklavos - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkI'm trying to figure out why you're commenting on any of this at all. Reply
flipmode - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkSeriously Anand, it is crummy that I cannot find a whole section of your website. I hate to spam an entirely separate article, but how completely lame it is to have to spend 15 minutes doing a Google advanced search to find the Anandtech article I'm looking for.
One of the very, very few truly Class A+ hardware sites on the internet - you can count all the members of that class on one hand - and you make it seriously hard to find past articles and you completely OMIT a link to an entire category of your reviews. Insane.
Please put a link to the "System" section somewhere. Please! Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkOur system section hasn't had a lot of updates, but you can get there via:
In fact, most common tags can be put there (i.e. /AMD, /Intel, /NVIDIA, /HP, /ASUS, etc.) The only catch is that many of the tags will only bring up articles since the site redesign, so you'll want to stick with the older main topics for some areas. Hope that helps. Reply
mino - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - link"so I'm wondering if we'll see Bulldozer adopt a 3 - 4 channel DDR3 memory controller"
Bulldozer will use current G34 platform. Hoe that answers your wonder :) Reply
VirtualLarry - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkBullDozer sounds like amazing stuff. I wonder, if the way that they have arranged int units into modules, if that means that we will be getting more cores for our dollars, compared to Intel. More REAL cores, I mean. I'm just a little disappointed that the int pipelines went from 3 ALU to 2 ALU, I hope that doesn't affect performance too much. Reply
gruffi - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkInteger instruction pipelines are increased from 3 to 4. That's 33% more peak throughput. The number of ALUs/AGUs to keep these pipelines busy is meaningless without knowing details. K10 has 3 ALUs and 3 AGUs, but they are bottlenecked and partially idling most of the time. Bulldozer can do more operations per cycle while drawing less power, even with only 2 ALUs and 2 AGUs. How can that be disappointing? Reply
ezodagrom - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI think Bulldozer has the potential to be really competitive, mainly because Sandy Bridges looks quite unimpressive.
In a recent leaked powerpoint from Intel, apparently until Q3 2011 the best Intel CPU is still going to be Gulftown based, possibly Core i7 990X. According to Intel benchmarks on the leaked powerpoint, the best Sandy Bridge, that is, Core i7 2600, apparently will be around 15% to 25% better than the i7 870, with the i7 980X being 25% to 35% better than the i7 2600. Reply
Mat3 - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkI have a question.. it was earlier speculated that BD would have four ALU pipelines per integer core. It was thought that one way they could make use of them was to send a branch down two pipes and take the correct result. Obviously this isn't the case, but my question is, why not? Wouldn't it be better to do that and just discard the branch predictors entirely? Why isn't that better? Reply
Zoomer - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkBasically you'll need 2x the power for much less than 2x performance increase. Modern branch predictors can have very good hit rates ~90%+. It simply made more sense to use the second int unit for another thread.
However, if you need the absolutely best single threaded int performance at all costs, imho, what you suggest wouldn't be bad. In fact, Reply
Edison5do - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkFinally besides the price competition, we will be able to see some tech competition, we have to raise our praise for AMD not to reject the ATI btand because New and HiTech CPU´s, should be paired with HiQuality, nice priced, Radeon GPU´s.
I really dont think People are ready to see "AMD" Brand as a Head-toHead Competitor to "INTEL" Brand, by this i mean that they should rely on ATI for being well accepted by the public for more time before they even star thinking about that. Reply
angrysand - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkthey may have had the on die memory controller, but Atom basically created the netbook market. AMD is just improving on what Intel help create (and that remains to be seen).
I had to see AMD go because I like having resonable performance for reasonable price. But they had better get their act together and put out faster CPU's. Reply
ABR - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkAtom did not create the netbook market, some convergence of wireless data and increasing use of the web by non-computer folk did. The first "netbook" products were the Crusoe-based mini-notebooks starting in 2001. Unfortunately for Transmeta, interest in the high-portability / long battery life model was low, only a couple of models even came out, and they ended up having to compete with Intel for scraps of the low-end laptop market. They lost, and Intel only finally caught up with their technology later with the Atom, when, coincidentally or not, the market was finally ready. Reply
Nehemoth - Tuesday, August 24, 2010 - linkWhy Bodcat will be manufactured in the 40nm process instead of 32nm is cause the GPU?.
Why will be manufactured on TSMC instead of GlobalFoundries?.
I supposed that this could be a problem with GF not being ready in 32nm but can we see a switch from TSMC to GlobalFoundries after Bulldozer begin to be manufacture?. Reply
iwod - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkTSMC has much higher 40nm capacity then GF's 32nm. Bobcat is going to be a low end product which will hopefully generate high volume of sales. TSMC in this case will be a much better fit then GF. Reply
moozoo - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkI wonder how hard it would be to make a version has two Floating point cores and one integer core.
Will AMD have a product to match Intel MIC's (Larrabee) .
(http://www.anandtech.com/show/3749/intel-mic-22nm-... Reply
YuryMalich - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkHi,
There is a mistake on page 5 on this picture http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cpu/amd/hotchi...
There were drawn two 128-bit FMAC units on Phenom II Microarchitecture.
But K10 processor doesn't have FMAC units at all! It has 1 FMUL and one FADD and one FMISC(FLOAD) units.
The FMAC (multiple-add) units are new in Bulldozer microarchitecture. Reply
Jack Sparow - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - link"Ivo August 25, 2010
How many threads everyone processor ("Interlagos", "Valencia" and "Zambezi") can do simultaneously per core compare with Phenom II processor?
John Fruehe August 25, 2010
One thread per core."
This quote is from AMD blogs home. :) Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkI think I touched on this before once on a THQ news article - John Fruehe is being confusing. The correct definition of a complete Bulldozer core is a module, which is a monolithic dual-integer core package also consisting of other shared resources - the top image on page 4 of this article is a great guide. So, a four module (or quad core as we currently term them) Bulldozer will handle eight threads concurrently as those four cores possess eight integer cores.
As such, I don't see non-SMT Bulldozer cores ever coming out. Reply
Mr Perfect - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkIt sounds like AMD will be selling by the integer core though, not by module. There's this from Page 4:
"Processors may implement anywhere from one to four Bulldozer modules and will be referred to as 2 to 8 core CPUs."
So they will be referring to four module APUs as having eight cores, rather then a quad core with HyperThreading. Reply
silverblue - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkSorry, I did mean to tackle the part of your thread dealing with different versions of Bulldozer. Valencia is a server version of Zambezi, i.e. 4 modules/8 threads. Interlagos is 8 modules/16 threads.
From AMD's own figures, each module is 1.8 times the speed of a current K10.5 core at the same clock speed. It is a little unfair to compare "core" to core due to the way they're designed and implemented. Considering each K10.5 core has three ALUs and Bulldozer has two per integer core, 90% of that integer performance is very good - for a quad core CPU in the current sense, Bulldozer would theoretically outpace Phenom II by 80% in integer work by only having 33% more integer resources, assuming the chip is well fed. If the rumours about a quad-channel memory bus are correct, you'd hope it would be. Reply
jeremyshaw - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkI believe Intel also delegated some Atom production to TSMC, unless if I am wrong? Reply
Penti - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkTSMC also does manufacture VIAs / Centaur Tech x86 processor.
Probably a few others too. There's some x86 SoCs for embedded stuff from other vendors. Reply
Perisphetic - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkIt's time to kick ass and chew bubble gum... and AMD is all outta gum. Reply
NaN42 - Wednesday, August 25, 2010 - linkAt first: I think AMD made a huge progress with Bulldozer.
But I'm wondering how the FPU will work exactly. A look at the latencies (especially of fma-instructions) would be interesting too. Another question is, if it is possible to start one independent multiply and one addition at the same time in a FMAC-unit. Furthermore the throughput is of interest. Is it one mul and add instruction per cycle? Is there any advantage to use 256 bit AVX-instructions, besides shorter code?
I appreciate that AMD will drop most 3Dnow-instructions because these are just outdated. Perhaps they could also drop MMX instructions but maintain x87-instructions because these are sometimes useful and needed.
I expect the decoder besides the FPU (compared to Sandy Bridge) to be another bottleneck because the 4-wide decoder has to feed two nearly independent cores and todays 3-wide decoders (except those in Nehalem/Westmere) are sometimes a bottleneck in a single core design.
@Ontario: I expect this platform to be much more powerful than the Atom platforms. Perhaps it will even be much more efficient than Atom. A direct comparison between Ontario and VIA Nano 3000 might be interesting especially when VIA releases dual core chips. Reply
GourdFreeMan - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkIt seems that AMD is ceding the traditional laptop and desktop market to Intel and chasing the server market and Atom/ARM's market with Bulldozer and Bobcat respectively. Lower theoretical peak IPC and greater parallelism target well the high level of data and transaction level parallelism in the server market, but existing consumer software excepting video encoding and a handful of games still tend to favor single threaded performance over parallelism. I suppose we should wait for benchmarks in actual applications to see how well architectural improvements have impacted the performance of AMD's new designs, but I imagine some people are already disappointed. Too bad the resources in both integer cores in a module can't work on a single thread, otherwise we could have had a very serious contender on the desktop... Reply
silverblue - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkHe sure seemed confusing on the comments page of his blog a few weeks back. Understandably evasive considering he's a server tech guy, not consumer tech, plus AMD were yet to reveal these details, but he was comparing 16 Bulldozer cores to 12 Magny Cours cores, which is technically incorrect as they're not comparable UNLESS you're talking about integer cores. At least, that's my interpretation.
AMD will probably market Zambezi as an 8-core CPU in order to woo the more-is-better crowd, but regardless of how it handles multi-threading, I still view a module as an actual core virtue of the fact that the "cores" are not independant of the module they belong to. I know I'm wrong and that's fine, but it helps in understanding the technology better - eight cores that exist in pairs and share additional resources might serve to confuse. Reply
gruffi - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkA 12-core Magny-Cours has 12 "integer cores" and 12 128-bit FPUs. A 16-core Interlagos has 16 "integer cores" and 16 128-bit FMACs. Why is it technically not comparable? At least you know you are wrong. ;) Reply
silverblue - Friday, August 27, 2010 - linkThe implementation is very different to what AMD have done before, that's what I'm trying to get at. Everyone knew that despite Intel and AMD having different types of quad core processor prior to Nehalem, they were still classed the same so I suppose it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. There's nothing to stop AMD from releasing a 24-"core" Bulldozer; it shouldn't be any larger than Magny-Cours - perhaps slightly smaller in the end - yet its integer performance would be through the roof.
However, people are bemoaning the fact that for 33% more "cores", AMD are only getting 50% extra performance - it's worth bearing in mind that AMD does this with 4 less, albeit better utilised ALUs than Magny-Cours (32 compared to 36). Make no mistake, Bulldozer is far more efficient and capable in this scenario, but I can't help wondering how strong Phenom II may have been if it'd had a slightly more elegant design. Reply
ROad86 - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkI think without being a pc expert that amd was trying to maximaze the multi-thread perfomance in less die size and being more efficient at power consumption. But i believe that they are still developing Bulldozer in order to maximaze single thread perfomance too. In desktop not much applications are threaded well in enough so they have to be competive in single thread perfomance too. Thats why I believe they dont announce release date yet. Among side the new manufactaring procces at 32 nm and I think the waiting for the release of sandy-bridge in order to see how better are intel new processors, the release date will be probably Q4 2011. But these are just speculations. Reply
Vallwesture - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkIt has been over two years... Reply
ROad86 - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - linkNew architecture, completly new design, maybe softaware too needs too be optimazed(windows 7 for example), in the end lets hope to bring something truly amazing. On paper it does but lets wait for reviews! Reply
KonradK - Thursday, August 26, 2010 - link"The basic building block is the Bulldozer module. AMD calls this a dual-core module because it has two independent integer cores and a single shared floating point core that can service instructions from two independent threads"
I'm curious whether CPU shedulers can distinguish between cores located in the same module from cores located in other modules of Bulldozer .
Because two cores located in the same module share one FPU unit , running two FPU heavy threads on two cores located in the same module and leaving cores in other modules idle would be at least unoptimal.
Simen1 - Tuesday, August 31, 2010 - linkFrom page 6: "Aggressive prefetching usually means there's a good amount of memory bandwidth available so I'm wondering if we'll see Bulldozer adopt a 3 - 4 channel DDR3 memory controller in high end configurations similar to what we have today with Gulftown."
AMD already have a 4 channel DDR3 design. Its in the Opteron 6100-line of processors on the G34 socket (LGA1974). AMD have promised it will be compatible with future bulldozer-based processors. Reply
liem107 - Monday, September 06, 2010 - linkI wonder how bobcat would fare against the VIA Nano. Considering VIA s portfolio, it would be a good aquisition for Nvidia for example to get their hands on a fairly good x86 core and license. Reply


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