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Athlon 64 Memory: Rewriting the Rulesby Wesley Fink on 10/1/2004 12:45 AM EST
- Posted in
- Memory
47 Comments
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xeoph - Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - linkI also wanted to mention it in this artical if it hasnt been already.
The pricing above the ultra X is for Ultra Platinum. The www.memory-up.com link is a little misleading because it doesnt give the exact tech specs.
simply a mistype. m-400-512x2glx1gb3200dc is what your looking for, little X between gl and 1gb. Reply
mervine - Sunday, October 10, 2004 - linkhi Wesley
You mention the newer Samsung TCCD chips overclock better on AMD64 than the older ones, How long have these new chips been avaliable?
The reason I ask is I live in europe and stocks over here might not be as new as in the states. I'm looking to buy some ocz rev2 but is there any way to tell if its using old or new revision TCCD? Reply
PrinceXizor - Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - linkWesley:
I appreciate your point. I suppose I would have been vaguer in my statements than you were, that is my only point (probably a matter of subjective opinion of course). Something like...
"In the course of testing, it was discovered that we were being adversely limited by the power supply used in our testing rig. Switching to a higher wattage power supply unlocked the potential of many of these DIMMS. While the actual problem with the original PSU requires more analysis time than we had for this review (lower wattage? lower rail amperage? lower rail tolernaces?), hard-core overclockers should carefully inspect the specifications on their PSU's if they plan on maxing out the OC on their memory modules. Switching power supplies, as we did, may help you to reach the overclocks attained in this review."
Something like that is all I would have liked to see, instead of a blanket recommendation for a higher wattage PSU. That was my point.
All this being said, I still enjoyed the review! I look forward to more memory module reviews in the future.
P-X Reply
jynxycat - Tuesday, October 05, 2004 - linkgood review, i was on the edge between the PQI and Crucial sticks, not really knowing what to expect from the PQI on an AMD setup.
finally a full review of what the respective sticks will achieve on the AMD platform, very much appreciated. Reply
Blappo - Sunday, October 03, 2004 - link42:
That is true. It might be interesting to see a comparison of PSUs to see which one would give the highest overclock. I would guess that the PSUs with high ratings would perform well, but there might be some lower power PSUs delivering good quality power that perform well, or some high output PSUs that perform poorly because of low quality power. Reply
darkwaffle - Sunday, October 03, 2004 - link41:
I'm not sure how much of a direct comparison you could make between the 3 PowerStream models, because according to http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/PSUSpec.pdf the +5 rail differs on the 420 and 470, and the +12 rail is different on all of them. Reply
Blappo - Saturday, October 02, 2004 - linkI would be curious if using either the 420W or 470W OCZ PowerStream models would change the amount the memory could be overclocked? Since they are in the same model line then any differences when OC would be attributed to the amount of power available, and not the quality of power available. Reply
LocutusX - Saturday, October 02, 2004 - linkI've got the one Wesley mentioned. It's the Enermax EG465P-VE - the *Q4 2001* model. That same model which is *currently* available in stores has slightly different specs. Anyways, I think I'll keep in mind a possible upgrade to the Powerstream since that would probably help my OC situation as well.
KingofFah - Saturday, October 02, 2004 - link#14,15,20,24
(This is more directed to #20)
As Wesley said:
+5Vsb - 2.2A
are the specs of the 465 they used.
Considering they switched to 520W OCZ Powerstream:
+5Vsb - 2.0A
Even though there is a drop in amperage on the 3.3 and 5v rails, there is a great increase in the 12v. CPU, GPU, HDDs, Optical drives, fans all get there power off of the 12v line.
Since w = v x a, if you want a good power supply, it almost certainly will have a lot of watts on it, but you only find good amperage on high quality models... So maybe you can see why they said +500 quality PSU??
My question is: Which rail does the memory draw from? Is it still the 5v? Reply
Marlin1975 - Saturday, October 02, 2004 - linkWesley Fink, since it has been shown many times that more and more current systems need better power. Why not do a review of power supplys. Everything form top dollar name brand ones to cheaper high "watt" ones to see if they put out what they say at each rail and if they help or hurt a system when doing normal work to over clocking?
I know power supplys are one of the most over looked items and I am building a HIGH power system right now and can not find any real reviews other then other people saying use or don;t use brand X
Thanks Reply
Bugler - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkI ordered from Newegg today. I did not see a place on their site for just a 512mb stick. I ordered the 1gb kit.
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?desc... Reply
Bugler - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkReply
saechaka - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkhey bugler where are you ordering your ocz platinum rev. 2 from? is there any way to find a place where you can order 1 512mb stick only? Reply
darkwaffle - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkI'm curious, for a socket754 user, is there really any reason why we couldn't (generally) follow these results? I realize that some of the overclocks may not be able to be achieved, but is it safe to say that the modules that perform highly on s939 will also perform highly also on s754 (In comparison to the other modules)? Reply
Wesley Fink - Friday, October 01, 2004 - link#32 -
Corsair and Kingston DDR400 2-2-2 were both included in our recent 2-2-2 roundup. Frankly we did test both Kingston and Corsair in the early going for these tests and both did quite poorly on the Athlon 64 test bed compared to other recent TCCD modules.
However, the Kingston and Corsair were early TCCD dimms and we are confident more recent dimms from these two major manufacturers would perform more like the OCZ, Geil, and G. Skill. Unfortunately we didn't have those more recent dimms to test, and we felt reporting what we had found would have been very unfair to Corsair and Kingston, who both produce excellent memory products. Reply
ImJacksAmygdala - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkI'm sure OCZ and Geil are great memory for A64, but all I got out of that article was buy OCZ memory, buy Geil Memory, o ya and buy a top of the line OCZ power supply....
What about Corsair and Kingston? How do they compete?
This site is smothered with advertisement. Why make it so obvious in the articles? Thanks for the article though... Reply
einsig - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkAnd re: the robust +12v rails. They are most crucial for A64 overlocking. I have an Enermax with 31A on two +12v rails and it makes the world of difference. Reply
einsig - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkOne thing that really needs to be stated is that Clawhammer cores automatically set a command rate of 2T at speeds from DDR400 and up. you need to use A64 Tweaker to make the change (can be loaded at startup). I have a Clawhammer 3400+ that has been run on an ASUS K8V Deluxe and MSI K8N Neo Platinum. I was running XMS 2x512 3200LL Corsair, but it didn't want to OC even on the K8N (nothing OCs on the K8V because of the chipset). I now run Crucial ballistix PC4000 and it is incredible, however (as the article states) the command rate of 1T is really ideal. They should just tell people how to set that if they have a Clawhammer. Reply
Shinei - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkWhat's really exciting is that the two DDR600 overclockers are board-limited before they top out in speed (K8N Neo2s go to 300MHz on the RAM). I'd like to see what the RAM could do on a more extreme overclocking board, since it seems like these new RAM chips are capable of pushing on to DDR667 or even higher...
With that said, I agree that the prices for this stuff is getting ridonculous. Cheaper RAM means more sales and increased usage of that 8 exobyte storage capacity the Athlon 64 has. ;) Reply
Bugler - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkThank you AnandTech. I have been waiting for greater clarification since you last recommended OCZ 3700 enhanced bandwidth ram and none could be found. I was balancing between that and ballistix. After today's review, I ordered OCZ Plat, rev 2 for the system I am putting together.
Now if we could get some reviews and testing of the newer 90 speed AMD processors, hint, hint...
I appreciate this site very much. Reply
Wesley Fink - Friday, October 01, 2004 - link#22, #25 and others -
The 465W power supply that was not up to the job had the following specifications:
+5Vsb - 2.2A
I would never have had any reason to suspect issues with this expensive major brand PS based on those specs, but in fact it turned out to be the limiting factor in overclocking the memory.
This issue requires more investigation as there are many possible reasons for my experience, but I felt an obligation to let readers know what we found in our testing. However, it is not fair to name brands without much more evidence. Reply
Blappo - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkHopefully the value memory roundup will also contain some generic memory as well. Knowing which premium memory is the faster is good, but I want to know how much of a difference memory makes on system performance. I don't want to spend 50% more for only 5% more performance. That money could be better spent somewhere else.
I'm glad that AnandTech did this article since everywhere else they only benchmark memory on Intel systems. Reply
Blappo - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkPrinceXizor - I agree completely. However, with higher wattage PSU most of the extra power comes on the 12V rail. I think that is why nVidia is recommending "monster" PSU for their high-end graphics cards because it is easier to tell people to buy a 480W PSU rather than a PSU that can deliver 22A (or whatever) on the 12V rail. Reply
Spearhawk - Friday, October 01, 2004 - link15: 20A? You're kiding right? My oven are at 20A. Reply
decptt - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkMy Ballistix performance
"Dec" copyright since Duron600@1000
Athlon64 Mobile 3200+ Rev.SH7-CG
AMA3200BEX5AR-ClawHammer L2:1MB
10x250 vid:1.5v+113%(~1.70v)
Idle@36C Load(Prime95)@43C
[10x255 worked @~1.97v Loaded(Prime95)@55C]
Crucial Ballistix PC3200 512MBx2 vcore:2.70v
Ratio = 1:1 ; TCl:2.5-Trcd:3-Tras:5-Trp:3 1T
ATI AIW 9600XT 128MB BUS:75 vcore:1.6v
DFI Lanparty UT NF3-250 Rev.A00 Bios.9/14(Beta)
Thermalright XP-90 +Panaflo-H1B-92(FBA09A12H)
Seagate ST3120026A
DVD model DD0401
Scroll(firstname.lastname@example.com on Sep 30, 2004)
CPU::ALU 11513 FPU 3954 iSSE2 5156
Media:: Int 23895 Float 2562
Ram:: Int 3780 MB/s Float 3779 MB/s
3DMark03V3.4.0--1751 :(
Super PI 1M 35s
Super PI 2M 1M23s
============================================= Reply
quanta - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkSpeaking of robust 12V rails, Enermax seems to be the only one make power supplies that can provide more +12V juice than most enthusists ever need, even for models without splitting +12V lines. Reply
AlphaFox - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkwhere did the power supply talk come from?? Reply
PrinceXizor - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkJust a further comment on the PSU "recommendation". I really think that the major tech sites are doing a disservice to the community when they keep recommending higher and higher total wattage PSU's. That is NOT the issue! As has already been pointed out, the key component is to analyze what voltage rail is is not providing enough juice. Just as clock speed is a poor indicator of processor performance, total wattage is a poor indicator of PSU performance. Considering that a major computer rig will rarely if EVER draw more than 250W of actual power, the key metrics for a PSU are the actual amperages on the various rails, particularly the robustness of the 12V rails. (Some newer PSU's are providing dual 12V rails for just this reason). So, does an enthusiast overclocking their rig need a 500 Watt "monster" or do they need a robust 12V line and tight voltage variance on those lines (as you drive stuff out of spec, the transients in those lines become more critical).
I guess the point of my long-winded post is this...tossing off a "recommendation" like was done in this article (well-intentioned I'm sure) without addressing the actual issues involved seems to me to be habit that should be avoided.
P-X Reply
rjm55 - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkAs you pointed out, you can't do the kind of tests you did here with an Intel rig with a locked multiplier. It was good to see all the different memory speeds at the same CPU speed, which proved once and for all that higher memory speeds DO improve performance - even with slower timings at higher speed. Makes my mouth water thinking about how good DDR550 at 2.5-2-2 would be.
I realize the performance differences weren't huge with just the memory overclocked, but most people will overclock the CPU AND the RAM and that will make a huge combined difference in performance. Tweaking is about squeezing the most from your gear, and you CAN get more out of memory at higher speeds. Reply
eetnoyer - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkTry newegg.com
saechaka - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linki can't seem to find a legit place to buy that ocz 3200 rev. 2. any suggestions Reply
Avalon - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkExcellent article. It's good to know what different memories can do on the Athlon 64 platform. Reply
ramclocker - Friday, October 01, 2004 - link14
The psu is probably around 20A on the 12V...I know from my testing 20A doesn't cut it anymore on a high end gaming/benching rig....you also have to remember that at high speed the ram will be drawing high levels of current also and the board will draw higher current due to heat etc.
I found the article an excellent read due to the fact it finally proved to me with reasonably tight timings running high fsb over 2-2-2 at 200 is the way to go...running 2.4gig for all tests Wes was the wise move here...great work. Reply
Blappo - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkThe computer would probably wouldn't use more than 250W. I understand that you don't want to mention the make and model. The nVidia 6800 Ultra draws most of its power through the 12V connection to the PSU, where the ATI 9800 Pro draws its power from the AGP slot. What is the max current rating on the 12V rail for the 465W PSU that you were using? I agree that a high quality PSU is needed (although not necessarily high max rating). Reply
Wesley Fink - Friday, October 01, 2004 - link#12 - The Asus A8V is reviewed at http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2128 and compared to other 939 boards. In memory testing we use a standard test bed to minimize variables.
#11 - The 90nm Athlon 64 tests should appear next week. We have just received 90nm 3500+ and 3000+ processors. AMD did not do a media launch on these processors, so we had to find them on the open market
#9 and #11 - A Value RAM roundup is in the works, but it has been moved out a while because of a large number of new launches this month.
Deuce - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkIt sure would be nice with tests also conducted on the Asus A8V. I'm still deciding between the two. Reply
PrinceGaz - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkJust to follow up that comment, I suppose the DDR533/2.4GHz results are actually the most useful out of them all when it comes to comparing those particular modules. All of them were fastest (at 2.4GHz) at that speed, except for the OCZ PC3200 Plat Rev.2 which was marginally faster at 8x300 for DDR600.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the reviews of the desktop 90nm A64 processors, and especially finding out how well each of them overclocks.
And also the Value Memory review you promised a few weeks ago :) Reply
PrinceGaz - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkAlthough all the (admittedly premium quality)memory could reach very high speeds, that didn't have much impact on performance.
Taking the highest clocking brand as an example, the OCZ PC3200 Platinum Rev.2, from the DDR400 2-2-2 speed to the DDR534 2.5-4-3 speed which was the best result still at a CPU speed of 2.4GHz, the results were
Quake 3: 516.3 -> 525.8
Super PI: 80 -> 79 (lower is better)
Wolf: 110.8 -> 112.7
So running the memory at DDR534 instead of DDR400 provided less than 2% increase in performance. This is to be expected when you compare the real-world performance of S754 and S939. The only thing that is important is that the memory can do 1T command-rate to the maximum overclock of your A64 at default multiplier.
I think the results on the highest memory performance page are probably misleading to some readers. It shows the Crucial Ballistix coming in at 536.5fps on Q3. Looking at the results I see that was at 9x278 for a CPU speed of 2.5GHz. Your CPU was able to reach over 2.6GHz so the performance in real world tests would have been somewhat higher with a 10x multiplier. Sandra results are irrelevant to most people.
It would be better if you included an additional test in addition to Highest Memory Speed, and Highest Memory Performance. This would be Highest CPU Speed where the CPU is maxxed out, and the memory run at whatever multiplier gives best performance on real-world tests (ignoring Sandra). I suspect the results would be a *lot* closer. Reply
AtaStrumf - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkNow about some value RAM tests? These modules are just too expensive for most of us. Reply
Jalf - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkOr maybe the "average" user would rather blow $200 on 1GB memory ;) Reply
Zebo - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkhttp://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=328636 Reply
mkruer - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkIf you get the chance, can you please test with 2GB of PC3200? I'm sure most would love to see what type of performance hit there will be with the larger modules vs. the smaller ones. Looking at the benches so far, it looks like even buying the cheap 1GB PC3200 modules will have negligible impact on the performance as long as the times are kept relatively low (under 3cls.) And one more big IF you could test 4x512 PC3200 with lower clock timings (2-2-2-5) vs 2x1024 PC 3200 with timings of (3-3-3-8) I'm sure that for the average user they would rather blow $400 for 2GB of slow memory then $400 for 1GB of fast memory. Reply
Zebo - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkspensive!:(
p/p is horrendous for this stuff. It's too bad you don't include micron/crucial 8t in there which can also clock to 260 for half the price. Reply
Kishkumen - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkI've loved all of these recent memory articles. For a while now, the current state of memory in general has been the fuzziest for me. Now I'm starting to get a clearer picture of where things are at and which direction to go. I'm still nursing along my old P4 Northwood, but the A64 plunge is imminent. Nice to see that memory development is keeping up at a strong pace what with 600 MHz speeds now a strong reality. Reply
RaistlinZ - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkThank you for the great article! From your tests it looks like the OCZ 3200 Rev.2 is the best of the best. It performed near the top in every test and edged out the Crucial Ballistix at the highest speeds.
I guess my choice for a memory upgrade is clear now. :) Reply
klah - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkSeems you cut something off at the end of page 9
"We have asked AMD to provide some insight into why we are "... Reply
skiboysteve - Friday, October 01, 2004 - linkexcellent article, ill keep this in mind when I upgrade... im still pluggin on a TbredB @ 2.2 w/ a modded 9500nonpro Reply


text:
High-End Buyer's Guide - October 2006by Jarred Walton on 10/9/2006 5:30 AM EST
- Posted in
- Guides
45 Comments
Back to Article
limiter - Thursday, October 19, 2006 - linkI purchased one of the MSI 975x Platinum Powerup boards and the Giel ram suggested in this article and I am having issues with boot up and reboots. I have the ram at DDR2-800, 2.4v (which is what my set says to set the voltage at). I tried setting memory timings to automatic and manually at 4-4-4-12 (again what the memory claims it's timings are). Sometimes the system hangs before post on reboot, sometimes from cold start it starts then resets over and over, sometimes it says "Overclocking failed" with no changes to the CPU settings (just memory). Sometimes it boots up just fine... when it does it works great. I have 7.1 of the bios (official release right now), and I have read that a lot of other people are having the same issues. Also you need a PS2 keyboard to make any bios changes which is annoying. Any suggestions from the Anandtech people? Reply
thart - Friday, October 13, 2006 - linkFrom: Terry Hart [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 11:41 PM
To: Baliff, Michael; Werder, Nick; Shade, Tom; Santos, Jim; Rice, Robbie; Pope, Jeff; Hart, Scott; Rose, Sam; Johnson, Ken
Subject: Stuff
Ken, etc.
Following links are to recent Anand Tech Recommendations for Mid Range and High End builds. I strongly disagree with their choices, especially for Mid Range.
1. The DDR-2 Memory has gone up in price and now costs considerably more than standard DDR. DDR-2 adds absolutely zero in performance to any AMD system. Therefore the best value by a considerable margin remains Socket 939 and standard DDR.
2. This Mad Rush to Dual Core is insane. There is practically zero difference in everyday performance. Almost no applications yet exist to really take advantage of it. A 1.8 GHz Athlon-64 3000 Single Core costs $55 for the retail box. The least expensive 2.0 GHz Athlon-64 3800 Dual Core costs $164.00 for the retail box. The actual difference in performance of these two is very small and certainly not worth 3 times as much!
3. The nVidia 6150 chipset based Micro Boards are the best I have ever seen. They include Gig Net, Firewire, SATA II 3.0, Raid, S Video Out, Dual Monitor support, splendid 7.1 Audio, and the best on-board Video anyone has ever seen. How one can possibly justify twice as much for the full size MOBO - plus another $100, or more, for a decent Video Card, is hard for me to understand.
4. These Rosewill Towers and Power Supplies cost a fraction of what Anand recommends. The Rosewill PS'es are just fine and the towers are the easiest to work in and have more bays than any of the ones they recommend, or that I have ever used before.
5. The NEC DVD Writers are great if you run only Doze. But they DO NOT work on any Linux system. Recently purchased a Retail Box NEC and received no cable(s) whatsoever, no DVD Software Decoder - just NERO 7 OEM. The Retail Box Lite-On DVD Writers with Lite-Scribe are better choices, I think.
6. Few folks need the Media Center OS. Only advantage I see is if you do install and use a Radio/TV Tuner/Capture card - which almost no one does. Not a thing wrong with plain old $89 Doze XP Home OEM for 99% of users. Nothing in the PRO Version that I need here either?
Sure wish someone would explain to me why I should spend well over 3 times as much for a Dual Core Socket AM2 than the more than adequate Socket 939 Single Core choices?
JarredWalton - Friday, October 13, 2006 - link1 -- High-end DDR2-800 like the GEIL Ultra costs $280 for 2GB. High-end DDR-500 costs $250 minimum and comes with generally lower performance. AM2 is 5% faster on average compared to a similar 939 setup. DDR is a dead end, with the last batches being manufactured between now and January 2007. Does that mean you need to go out and upgrade from a DDR system to DDR2 system? Certainly not, but I definitely wouldn't save $30 to stick with an outdated platform if you're buying a new computer, which is the point of the buyer's guides.
2 -- Obviously you have never run any serious multitasking applications. 3D rendering, video encoding, audio encoding, professional image editing, compression/decompression are all more than capable of utilizing more than a single processor core. If you never do anything more than surf the web, write e-mail, and use Microsoft office then you don't need dual cores right now.
3 -- Obviously you have never used a really good motherboard if you think the 6150 chipset is the best motherboard ever. Or more specifically, you are assuming that your needs are the same as everyone else's needs/wants. I don't even want to think about trying to run games on a 6150 chipset. Of course, we've already run benchmarks http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2553&p...">comparing ATI and NVIDIA integrated graphics. Think those numbers look impressive? A dual GPU configuration like those used in this article packs about 20 times more graphical performance, which can be very useful for high-quality gaming. I don't even want to think about running Oblivion on any integrated graphics chipset.
4 -- Rosewill is about is generic of a brand as you can get. While that might be okay for the cases, I would never recommend a $50 power supply for use in a system that costs well over $2000. I'm pretty sure you're convinced that every buyer's guide should be a budget buyers guide, but some people actually like to have the fastest computers available, and some of us actually make use of them.
5 -- Every motherboard I have ever purchased comes with IDE cables that can be used with your optical drive. Perhaps if you purchased the cheapest motherboards on the market, along with IDE hard drives, you might only get a single cable and find yourself in a difficult situation where you have to go out and spend an extra $4 on another cable? As far as whether or not they work with Linux, I can't say I've tested it, but I'm confused as to why they wouldn't work. Finally, you can get DVD software decoders for free if you need them.
6 -- Have you ever tried to share your various folders on the network using XP Home? Yes, you can share certain folders, but you can't simply share the whole hard drive, and you will never be able to access certain folders over the network. As I stated in the article, if you only run one computer in your house, he certainly won't notice the difference between XP Home and XP Professional. As for Media Center Edition, it has virtually all of the features of XP Pro plus a bunch of extras of its own, and it costs $30 less than XP Pro.
Why should you spend more money for dual core socket AM2 system? Well, if you had read this guide carefully, you would notice that I actually don't recommend buying the AM2 systems at all. For people that actually want maximum performance, Core 2 Duo has anything available from AMD beat hands down. Anyway, you obviously shouldn't go out and buy a high-end computer, because clearly you aren't doing anything that needs it.
I have actually been using a socket 754 system as my primary computer for the last two years, and only the last couple of months did I finally decide to migrate all of my work onto a faster system. Do I notice the difference in performance? You darn well better believe it! Not just in games either. I can do work in Photoshop much faster than before, especially when working with multiple images. But there are plenty of times when the system sits idle just waiting for me to give it something to do, and clearly at such times my new faster system is no better than my old system.
You might want to read the conclusion one more time, as it contains statements targeted directly at people like yourself: "The best time to upgrade is when you are no longer happy with your computer... or perhaps just after winning the lottery. Many of us still have computers that are over two years old that we use on a regular basis, and while they may not be the fastest systems on the planet, for a lot of tasks they are perfectly adequate."
I'm glad you're happy with your single core socket 939 system. Just because it's adequate doesn't mean that I should recommend it for anyone going out on purchasing a new computer today. Should someone with an old Celeron system upgrade to socket 939 right now? That would be a pretty pointless upgrade, considering that it doesn't cost much more money to change to something else that would be faster and more future proof. It would be like talking to someone who has an old 1970s car that they're finally going to get rid of, and recommending that they upgrade to a used car manufactured in 1995, because after all that's 25 years newer than their old piece of junk.... In fact, not only should they upgrade to a 1995 model, but they should pay $10,000, because that's a much better than paying $14,000 for a decent 2006 model car.
Jarred Walton
AnandTech.com Reply
yyrkoon - Saturday, October 14, 2006 - linkThere are also a few other things that you cant do in XP home, such as run as a server, or run IIS, ect.
Also, I'm not sure whether dual core CPU will be taken advantage of in XP home, although early versions of XP home wouldnt reconize Hyper Threading CPUs (they would only show in the device manager as a single CPU, where in XP pro, they would show as dual CPUs), they have since 'fixed' this, but I havent played in XP home for a very long time, so I can not be sure. Reguardless, 'real' dual CPUs wont be taken advantage of in XP home.
As Jarred pointed out, more than 'simple file sharing' is not supported in XP home, which may be fine for the casual user, but I think we all can agree the majority of the people reading these comments are not the average user. File permissions also are not as flexable as in XP pro (if availible at all), which in certain situations, can be a big deal.
There are probably a few things I've missed, but whatever, you get the point. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, October 13, 2006 - linkHey Jarred, I'd like to add, that I'm currently using a Asrock AM2NF4-SATA2 board, and as a test, I installed XP, etc, and PLAYED Oblivion on the onboard 6100 graphics . . .
Needless to say, I ordered a 7600GT from newegg . . . as even @ 800x600 low settings, the system wouldnt play the game faster than 12 FPS, and gameplay was terrible. Hell, my old 3200+ XP system with a 6600GT spanked the crap out of it. Now, Im getting ATLEAST a steady 30 FPS, and the game plays much, much smoother. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, October 13, 2006 - linkNo one said you HAD to spend ANYTHING. This article wasnt written for YOU specificly. I basicly took it as a 'guidelines' article myself.
1. My AMD 3800+ AM2 system gets 3 times as much menmory bandwidth comparred to my AMD 3200+ XP system
2. Rush, or not, no one SAID yo uhad to.
3. The nVidia micro 6150 boards are fine IF you dont care about the latest features used in current chipsets, and are ALL budget boards that dont always run 100% stable, even when set 100% stock (I know because I've built a few, and am replying from one right now)
4. Rosewill PSUs . . . hah. thats about all thier good for, is a laugh.
5. I think its fiarly safe to say that 95% of people who use cutting edge systems, dont use Linux, period, atleast, not for desktop system.
6. Here, we're talking ENTHUSIAST, do you think an enthusiast is going to be using XP home ? I know I wouldnt.
Single core wont multitask any hwere near as well as a dual core system, but hey, feel free to live in the dark ages, if you so feel the need, hell I have a friend who thinks its evil to install SP2 on XP, and refuses to upgrade past his P3 pentium, but, whatever floats your boat, no need to TRY and make someone feel bad about thier article because YOU dont agree with it. See ya *wave*
AaronAxvig - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkIf I really wanted a high end, no holds barred machine, I could spend way more than you did ($10,000+). For sure I'd go with 15k SCSI drives, RAIDed however to eke the most performance out. And then, I probably WOULD go off the deep end and get the dual-socket motherboard, because guess what: games are going to start using 4 cores (Alan Wake gets thrown around a lot here). Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkThe thing is, the Alan Wake demo ran on an overclocked QX6700 and then they even stated that it would run just as fast at stock speeds. Translation: it didn't need faster quad cores. The next big question then becomes: how much does it really need quad cores over dual cores? I will wager it ends up being heavily GPU limited on dual-core systems, and quad core will only make a difference with 2 x G80/R600 or at lower resolutions. No one buying a $4000+ system is going to run at anything less than 1600x1200/1680x1050 if they can avoid it.
Obviously, you can go higher than the $5600 system. We don't generally recommend even $5000 systems for the majority of people, and the number of people that should get a $10K PC is very small. I'd never put 2x15000 RPM drives in a home computer... high pitched whine, need for extra fans to keep the case cool, etc. means it's solely for bragging rights and not much else. Funny thing is, in most consumer oriented benchmarks a RAID 0 SATA setup is going to pretty much match RAID 0 SCSI. Most tasks simply aren't HDD I/O bound... and if they are, add more RAM! Reply
Justin Case - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkWhy are clock speeds given for the AMD CPUs, but only model numbers for the Intel CPUs...?
I don't remember Anandtech having any problem publishing AMD's clock speeds back when they were lower than Intel's (even though the CPUs were actually faster). So now that the situation is reversed (Intel has better IPC, but their CPUs' frequency is about the same), why the sudden omission of Intel's clock speeds (and just a reference to "you might get 3 GHz with overclocking")?
Could it be because Chipzilla's marketing department sent its minions^H^H^H I mean "favourite journalists" a memo telling them to join in on the model number campaign or kiss their free preview samples goodbye? Nah, that couldn't possibly be it....
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkAbsolutely not! It's merely a matter of me forgetting to put the clock speeds in on the Intel chips. Trust me, when you're trying to hammer out the last bits and pieces of of the 7000 word article, put together the tables, and get everything posted before 8 a.m. Eastern time thing slip through the cracks. :-) I will go in update the tables now.... Reply
Zebo - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkAnandtech really needs to start doing monitor tests again. I don't know if you used those Acers but they suck bad. And the Dell 24" suffers from serious input lag and poor view angles like the TN Acers. LCD's are not a commodity where you can graph price/size and pick your winner. Does 8 bit means nothing? Color shift? Input lag? Lying specs vs. real specs? Good viewing angles? LCD scaling for gamers?
The 30" Dell is pretty decent as it's an IPS but not overdriven like the new HP so it's slow.
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkI've got both Dells, and they work fine for everything I do. Overdriving displays is mostly just playing the numbers game. If you can see pixel lag on any of the Dell LCDs mentioned, then you can probably see pixel lag on virtually every LCD on the market. I will be doing some LCD reviews in the near future, but so far I have far bigger issues with prices than I do with performance. I just wish I could get an LCD that ran at a high refresh rate in order to avoid tearing when vsync is disabled. Unless you do professional imaging work where having accurate color values is absolutely necessary, most LCDs will get the job done. As for the Acer displays, they did get put on the bottom of the pricing chart for a reason, and I don't think they are the highest quality displays available. They aren't the worst displays available, and without spending twice as much money it is unlikely that he will seek dramatically better performance or colors in the same size display. Reply
limiter - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkI agree on the price, I bought a cheap (under $275), BenQ FP202W 20.1in Widescreen display that got panned by Tom's Hardware as the worst 20.1in widescreen monitor they've ever seen, yet I think it's great. I don't see lag, or the other problems mentioned in their review. I went from a 19in CRT so it's not like I was going from a 15in at 32ms to 8ms and that's why I think it's great. Maybe I just have bad eyes, but I'd buy it again. Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkThat's a perfect case in point. While it is definitely possible to measure differences between LCDs, the simple truth is that most people can't tell the difference without specialized hardware to measure values. For example, a display that has colors that are off by 10% might not look as good next to a display that has accurate colors. However, if you're viewing them individually in separate rooms, you're going to have a difficult time determining which is better using just your eyes. The lighting in a room often has more of an impact on the display visuals for typical users than the display itself. Reply
Howard - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkThe efficiency of a PSU has nothing to do with its actual power output. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkNo, and I don't believe I said it does. It has to do with how much power is used internally in the conversion process, so a 70% efficient 600W PSU could in theory draw 857W and an 85% efficient 600W PSU would only draw 706W - something like that.
I guess the text implied that the efficiency meant it could output 500W. What I meant is that it can do 500W output, and it can do it at a high efficiency. There are plenty of "500W" PSUs out there that would fail if you really tried to pull 500W from them. I'll clear up the text.... Reply
yyrkoon - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkActually, I believe its more like power thats NOT lost to heat while being converted to DC, from AC. Feel free to correct me if Im wrong though :) Reply
BigLan - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkGiven the ati-amd merger, the AMD god box uses nvidia sli while the Intel box uses ATi crossfire. I suspect that in a year that situation will be reversed.
Good guide btw, it's nice to dream about building a system like this, but I'd stick with my Scythe Ninja for a HSF. Reply
limiter - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkHow much of this hardware did you guys test together? I wonder especially about the memory and the optical drives simply because there seem to be a number of modules and drives out there that either don't work, or don't work as well as they should with the p965/975x motherboards. I'm looking at building a new system soon and really appreciate these guides, but I would like to see either confirmation that at least the memory was tested with the motherboard/processor combo listed, or that someone else has tested it and you are going off that... I guess just for peace of mind before buying anything. The motherboard manufacturers list a small number of compatible modules, ASUS being the worst. Reply
Gary Key - Monday, October 09, 2006 - link
How much of this hardware did you guys test together? I wonder especially about the memory and the optical drives simply because there seem to be a number of modules and drives out there that either don't work, or don't work as well as they should with the p965/975x motherboards.
The majority of the components have all been tested on a large cross-section of boards. Some components work better in certain boards (even though the chipsets are the same) than others. Memory was a very weak area in the P965 launch and it was not the budget memory at the time, it was the upper end memory that was having issues. My opinion on the subject matter is that both the memory and motherboard suppliers had equal issues. The majority of it has cleared up now although it is difficult to understand why certain memory modules and bios updates still have issues playing nice with each other. As far as optical drives, please let us know which one is having an issue, tried over 18 different optical drives from a Kenwood TrueX to a Pioneer Blu-ray without an issue on our current collection of 965/975 boards. At least 11 different hard drives have been used also at this time. Reply
limiter - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkI read an article on Toms or HardOCP (that I can't find now) which said they had problems getting one of their DVD drives to work on a P965 ASUS board, but a lot of what I've read comes from Newegg item comments like these for the ASUS P5B Deluxe:
BenQ & Pioneer DVD-RW IDE drives can't record from Windows on this board for me. Strange really. They show as DVD-RW drives, and work fine in other machines, but when a blank DVD/CD is inserted, Windows changes the drive description to DVD-ROM, and you can't record.
the primary IDE has problems. It won't let my DVD burner burn DVDs. It will burn CDs but not DVDs. When I try to burn a DVD, some burning software sends the data but the burner never does anything. Other burning software reports an error. I have spent 5 days trying to fix this annoying problem. For a long time I thought it was software or Windows related. I finally re-installed Windows, changed to a Plextor DVD burner, changed the cable, etc. Still doesn't work. I am now convinced that this is a motherboard problem. zevo thinks this is a JMicron IDE controller problem and that makes sense to me.
For the ASUS P5W DH Deluxe
For me, the Intel IDE controller is VERY slow when using a known-working DVD drive. It is stuck in PIO mode.
I've read some other forum comments about DVD problems on ASUS P965 mobos, but I can't find them right now. If I run across them again I will update. I'm not saying this is a bad motherboard or ASUS is a bad company, and any of this could be user error, unrelated bad hardware, or have been corrected by bios updates. I guess I just get the impression there are more people having issues with memory and DVD burners than usual. Nothing I think needs a too much attention. I am happy to see memory was tested for the article, I look forward to the future article mentioned above on this topic!
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkOf course, all the boards are using 975X in this guide and not P965. The problem likely stems from the fact that none of the P965 boards have an Intel IDE controller, since ICH8 doesn't provide one. (Stupid... but that's a topic for another day.) Most boards use third-party controllers can order to offer IDE support, and some of the initial BIOS revisions were very flaky in memory and IDE support. Beyond that, I can't think of anything specific that would be causing issues for people. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkThe RAM and motherboard combinations have all been tested (as far as I'm aware) by Gary Key and/or Wesley Fink. Those choices were made with extensive input from Wes and Gary. That's the major sticking point in terms of compatibility - and P965 memory compatibility has improved a lot with the latest BIOS revisions. However, it should be noted that we strongly recommend setting memory timings (and voltages) manually for most high-end enthusiast systems. The SPD settings should work and allow the systems to POST, but they are not optimal by any means. Hope that helps - Gary or Wes might be able to chime in with specific testing results for the RAM+Mobo, although I think there's an article in the works that will cover that aspect regardless. Reply
Missing Ghost - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkIs there really a good reason to choose AM2 over 939? I think the motherboards for 939 are more mature. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkIf you're looking to use older components (like existing DDR RAM), 939 is still fine. That's what I still use for my personal system (mostly because I don't have the time to get a full Core 2 Duo up and running, and I likely wouldn't notice the difference in performance for the apps I run most). If you're building a full new system, there's no reason to get 939 anymore.
Think DDR2 prices are bad? Take a look at quality DDR - it's no better, and you won't get 1:1 overclocks to DDR-667 or higher with any RAM. $250 or so will get you DDR2-800 that can run faster than any 1:1 overclock on AM2 will need. There will also be no future platforms for DDR (other than budget offerings from maybe SiS or VIA).
Anyway, AM2 launched in a state that was nearly as mature as 939, and it has quickly matched it overall, if not exceeded it. The prices are about the same, AM2 typically hold a 5% advantage in performance over 939 (for equivalent CPU and RAM speeds), and hopefully AMD will do quad cores on AM2 in the future - 939 is now EOL'ed, and DDR is in a similar boat. I believe the last production runs of DDR will complete in early 2007, and then pretty much everything will shift to DDR2 or later RAM production. Reply
mostlyprudent - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkWow! You really covered your bases and made it clear that there are still plenty of options out there to choose from. Nicely done, although it leaves little room for discussion.
One Guide I would love to see in the future is one that attempts to find the best balance between noise and performance. There are plenty of sites that talk about silencing a PC, but they tend to cripple performance at some level. Anandtech has looked at some components in this respect (i.e. video cards and cases), but it would be great to see the whole package put together. Maybe it's in the context of the best all-purpose PC for those who cannot afford a separate rig for gaming, one for family use, one for an HTPC, a media server, etc. Reply
MadBoris - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkGlad you guys offered so many alternatives through the guide. I like a reference of what the current best components are in each field, but I end up choosing certain best components. So the alternatives, throughout the guide, were very nice.
Thanks for these buyers guides, it will really help alot of people out with core 2 duo upgrades and upcoming next gen GPU's. Thanks alot guys. Reply
Baked - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkWhat's with the Ultra High End system w/o a Seasonic or PCP&C PSU?
And no loving for the Thermalright Ultra-120? Unlike other companies, Thermalright knows how to innovate instead of just blowing up their products. You can get the Ultra-120 w/ a Yate Loon D12L for less than $55 and it'll perform better if not on par w/ the Scythe Infinity, AND it'll stay attached to the motherboard. You expect people to buy your $65 but you can't come up w/ a better mounting system other than the one used by Intel's retail HSF? Poleeeeeeeese. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkSee above comment - the Kingwin has been upgraded to a Seasonic S12-500 now. I should have figured the PSU police would come knocking if I didn't spend at least $100 on a "high-end" PSU. Honestly, if you don't plan on overclocking and adding a lot of extras, the vast majority of 500-600W PSUs will work fine. Some are quieter, some are more efficient, but most will handle a moderately high-end configuration.
BTW, I'm typing this on a system configured with:
Athlon X2 3800+ OC'ed to 2.2GHz (4600+ equivalent)
X1900 XT + X1900 CF GPUs
2x1024MB OCZ DDR-500 3-3-3-8-1T
160GB Samsung HDD (secondary storage)
Pioneer DVR-110D
Antec SLK-3000B case
...And a Kingwin 600W PSU
I bought the Kingwin several months ago on a whim - I needed a PSU fast after an Antec 400W unit failed, and the local shops didn't have a great selection. Note that the Antec PSU was *not* used in this system config! LOL - CrossFire on an Antec? Not for me!
The system is not extremely quiet... but then that's almost impossible with dual X1900 cards. Full load the system stays well under 500W, and I haven't had any issues with stability whatsoever. Upgrading the system to socket AM2 and 7900GTO cards would drop power requirements, so I still fully stand by the original choice of the 600W Kingwin as a reasonable "budget high-end" PSU. Will it fail gracefully if I exceed the limits of the PSU? No idea - I don't intend to find out either. :) Reply
yyrkoon - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkIts not about the brand name Jarred, you can find a reasonable PCP&C PSU, hell, you'll pay more just because of SLI 'certification'. Anyhow, sometimes, someone may want a longer hold time, or want rock solid rails, or possibly better efficiency (although seasonic may have PCP&C beat here, depends on models).
You mentioned something about re-branding, however im not so sure thats completely true. 99.9% of all PSUs probably are made in one of 12 plants in China, HOWEVER, parts, support, , and specifications are not always interchangeable.
I didnt see how much your KINGWIN PSU was, but something that hits me as more than slightly funny, is why spend 260 us on a motherboard, 300 + on a CPU, 250-300 on memory, and get cheap on the PSU ? I think you'll find that PCP&C PSUs are more efficient, have a much longer hold time, and should exibit a much more solid rail supply. Lets not forget that PCP&C PSUs are rated at 40C, and not 25C like alot of common PSUs on the market. (not everyone lives where its cold, or even cool.)*shrug* Reply
JarredWalton - Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - linkSeasonic makes PC Power and Cooling PSUs as far as I'm aware (I've seen it stated elsewhere, though nothing official from either company), along with Silverstone and a few others I believe. (I wouldn't be surprised if some of the other PSU manufacturers re-rate the power supplies to a higher wattage however.) While I'm sure there are some companies that would ask to get a lower cost PSU manufactured, I don't think anyone going to Seasonic is looking at price as a primary concern. I would wager heavily that the components that go inside a Seasonic PSU are identical to the components they put in a PC Power and Cooling PSU -- after all, once you're using the best components available, there's not much else to do. The only difference is that Seasonic uses 120mm fans these days, whereas PC Power and Cooling still uses 80mm fans I believe. (I know which of those two options I prefer!)
In terms of efficiency, all of the high-quality PSUs are going to be 80 to 88%. As far as I understand it, the watt rating is still how much power the PSU can output to components, so basically less efficient PSUs will simply run hotter when outputting the same amount of power, and that the same time they will cost more money because they are consuming more power from the outlet. If that's correct, let's do a quick sample calculation:
75% efficiency with a 300W PC draw:
Wall power: 400W
24/7 Operational Cost: $28.80 per month ($.10 per kilowatt)
Yearly Cost: $345.60
85% efficiency with a 300W PC:
Wall power: 353W
24/7 Operational Cost: $25.42 per month ($.10 per kilowatt)
Yearly Cost: $305.04
Savings per year: $40.56
So yes, you can argue that buying high-efficiency power supply can pay for itself over the course of the year. Not that we're comparing a pretty average (75%) power supply a with a very good (85%) power supply, and we're also assuming 24/7 operation at a relatively high load. A lot of computers, including the basic AMD system, probably average closer to half that much power draw.
Something else worth mentioning is that most high-end power supplies -- the type that are supposed to be capable of outputting 700-1000W for example -- often have much lower efficiency ratings when they aren't being heavily loaded. Some PSU companies will actually tell you the efficiency rating at several different loads. Often, you will find that under moderate load even a high-quality 700 W power supply will only be about 70% efficient.
PC Power and Cooling aren't bad PSUs, but they are definitely overpriced relative to other options. Either the best power supply on the market? I don't personally think so, although they are *one* of the best. Given the choice between a high-quality Fotron Source (700 W model for instance) and the competing Seasonic or PC Power and Cooling model, I'm going to save you $50 and go with Fotron Source. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, October 13, 2006 - linkWell yeah, the more efficient PSU is going to save you money in a few years, but after a point, that doesnt bother me as much as the Typical PSU being rated at 25C. What does this mean? This means, that if ambient (inside the PC case ) is above 10-15C, your PSU, inside, is going to be over 25C, which means, you're going to be losing power, AND efficency.
I dont recall the formula, but lets assume you lose 5% power per 5C over the rated maximum tempurature, and the temp inside the PSU is 30C. This basicly means IF your PSU is rated at 600W @ 25C, at 30C, its actually only capable of 570W maximum (continuous). Now, this may look fairly trivial, however, I'm thinking real world, its actually more than 1% loss per 1C.
Anyhow, it doesnt bother me one bit spending $200 us even on a PSU thats going to take care of my current system, and several afterwards. Reply
yyrkoon - Friday, October 13, 2006 - linkPCP&C Started in a garage in 1981 (ish) in California. How long has Seasonic been around ? If you go to PCP&C's website, you can read an article written about how PCP&C got started, and why the owner/president is so 'anal' about certain issues. Some of which, I agree with.
It's possible the plant in China that makes Seasonic PSUs also make PCP&C, but I hardly think they are re-branded. This is how it works, everyone (basicly) has thier PSUs made in China to reduce costs, and maximize profits, if someone TRIED starting a PSU manufactuering plant in the US, they would most likley go bankrupt, before they became noticed. Even the PSU companies CLAIMING to be in Tiawan, are actually just 'store fronts' for the actual part being manufactuered in China.
How do I know this you ask ? I've had a lengthy chat with a friend in person, who worked in the buisness, and described to me how it works. From the conversation, I gathered that PCP&C PSUs ARE designed by the US company, and the company also picks out he parts to be used etc, but everything gets sent over to China, is put together, and sent back to be sold. I suppose its even possible that Seasonic is the middle-man in all of this, but I will just about garuntee that the owner of PCP&C retains the IP for his designs, after all, he started off as an un-known Electronics Engineer, making quieter PSUs, that had longer hold up times for friends, before he got into the buisness (or so he claims, but I've zero reason to doubt the guy on his word here).
The way I see it, SOMEONE puts all the parts together, BUT PCP&C still makes thier own PSUs by design/parts.
Again, let me re-iterate, PSU efficeincy has to do with power lost to heat while converting AC -> DC ;) Reply
BladeVenom - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkI would rather go with the power supplies that you recommended in you midrange buyer's guide. Kingwin doesn't have a good reputation, and the last review I saw for one of their power supplies would make me hesitant to even use it in a low end PC. http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/Absolute600W/">http://www.jonnyguru.com/PSU/Absolute600W/
Another thing that suprised me was the Bluegears b-Enspirer. It sounds interesting, but I could only find a couple of short reviews for it. Since you're recommending it, are you going to do a review of it soon? Reply
KorruptioN - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkAgreed. The Kingwin (based on a Superflower) isn't the best choice available. You guys seemed to pick it out based on the fact that it offered "600 Watts". It doesn't even offer a second PCI-E power connection (according to JonnyGURU's review). Combined with the 30A +12V rating, it isn't good enough for dual-GPU configurations, IMO.
Antec's NeoHE 500W (in the later revisions) or one of XClio's modular PSUs are better overall choices, I think. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkI'm quite sure that the Kingwin does have dual PCIe plugs: http://www.kingwin.com/pdut_detail.asp?LineID=&...">Specifications. Perhaps JohnnyGuru got an early revision that was messed up - that happens more often than I'd like with hardware review sites, as we often get product before it's publicly available. Obviously, it's the "low-end" of this roundup, which means part of the choice was made for pricing reasons. I guess I forgot to make my standard disclaimer clearly visible:
Fotron Source, Seasonic, Enermax, and a variety of other PSU manufacturers (well, a lot of them are just rebranded Fotron Source or some other OEM design) are good choices that will almost always cost a bit more money. For the baseline AMD model, you certainly don't need a 600W PSU. If you're looking to upgrade in the future and keep the PSU, getting something better is recommended.
That said, I'll pop out the Kingwin and put something else in there. I'm not going to go with PCP&C for the price, that's for certain. They make fine power supplies (well, Seasonic does), but while they warrant a mention on the Ultra configuration, they can't really fit into an ~$2000 budget without having to sacrifice other areas just to accommodate a PSU that's overkill. Hopefully you're all happy with spending $35 more to go from an okay Kingwin 600W to a great Seasonic 500W. :) Reply
KorruptioN - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkJarred, you're linking to a different PSU altogether. You are linking to the ABT-600MM, where the original PSU selection in this PC guide was the ABT-600CW. It does look like the specification has been updated to include two 6-pin PCI-E power connections, but that doesn't really change the fact that it doesn't have a lot of juice where it matters the most.
Either way, good choice on that Seasonic S12-500. How about the new M12-500? Or is that too much to ask :P Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkAh, then the mistake was yours (well, someone's anyway - whoever linked the JohnnyGury review). The original PSU was indeed the Kingwin Maximum Power ABT-600MM 600W -- I have the spreadsheet right in front of me, and I'm sure it was not the CW version. Figures; people like to get up in arms over PSUs, but then they rarely do anything more than say "OMG it's not a Seasonic/[insert favorite brand]!". You can get the ABT-600MM http://www.xpcgear.com/abt600mm.html">right here - that's the price I used in the original text. Reply
Gary Key - Monday, October 09, 2006 - link
Another thing that suprised me was the Bluegears b-Enspirer. It sounds interesting, but I could only find a couple of short reviews for it. Since you're recommending it, are you going to do a review of it soon?
Yes, we will be reviewing it in the coming weeks. While not in the same class as the X-FI for gaming, it is better than the on-board solutions while providing just about every option you would want in a HTPC card considering the price. Reply
poohbear - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkhate to point this out about this whole article, but if price was'nt an issue, wouldnt i just buy something prebuilt from falcon northwest, voodoo pc, or alien ware? im not sure which audience this article caters to, but i doubt they're a DIY audience that follows anandtech. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkTry configuring a similarly equipped "ultra" system at any of the vendors you mentioned for $5500 - including a 30" LCD, remember, plus speakers and all the other stuff. Note that all prices include shipping to the continental US (although tax is not included). Sure, you get support from one location, but we're not here to constantly recommend system vendors.
There's a huge DIY audience that reads AnandTech, and at least this gives people a baseline price list that they can look at when they're considering pre-built systems. We try to cater to all markets, not just the vendors that buy advertising. Reply
Powersupply - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkAs always someone has to be the annoying person who feels this or that is missing. Today it is me.
1. I can't see why Thermalright Ultra-120 should be missing from the selection of CPU coolers. It performs on par or better than the Infinity with the same fan.
2. Why not putting more than 2 harddrives into the "Ultra High-End Platform"? After all you went with a stacker case who got plenty of space. 2 x Raptor + 2 x Other HDD would be sweet. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkAdded mention of the Thermalright. As for the HDDs, I quote from the original text:
Lastly, we come to the storage subsystem. Anyone looking for even more extreme performance could always add a couple of 150GB Western Digital Raptor drives in RAID 0, but for an ultra high-end computer we prefer more storage over slightly faster hard drives. Thus, we have chosen two 500GB Western Digital hard drives, which you can once again choose to run in RAID 0, RAID 1, or simply as individual drives, giving you up to a full terabyte of storage. You could further upgrade to RAID 1+0 for performance and redundancy, although that would also require four hard drives which is more than most people want to install in a home computer. We certainly aren't recommending this configuration as the best choice for every single person: get what you feel is most beneficial for your storage needs.
I believe that fully covers your second comment, right? It's always an option, but it's not required by any means. Reply
yacoub - Monday, October 09, 2006 - linkThe Antec P150 is such a superb case I can't believe it does not many any of your four case recommendations. It is an ideal case in that it is built for quietness, airflow, ease of cleaning, and ease of access. Everything about it is pretty much perfect AND it's not upside-down like the more "popular" Antec P180 case, nor does it have a silly topvent. It's also a little more reasonably-sized (I don't know of anyone building a gaming PC that needs more than 2-3 5.25" bay drives nor room for more than 3-4 hard drives. Really, this case has it all. It's probably the one part of my current build I'm most satisfied with and have been since purchase, which was when they first came out about a year ago. Reply
JarredWalton - Monday, October 09, 2006 - link
The choice of case is going to be largely based on personal preference.
Some people love the P180, others love the P150, and still others think the ASUS plastic monstrosity is the coolest looking case ever. I figured with a choice of the SLK-3000 and P180, I needed someone other than Antec to represent the case section. :) Reply

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Intel's Ivy Bridge: An HTPC Perspectiveby Ganesh T S on 4/23/2012 12:01 PM EST
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anirudhs - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkI can barely notice the difference between 720P and 1080I on my 32" LCD. Will people notice the difference between 1080P and 4K on a 61" screen?
It seems we have crossed the point where improvements in HD video playback on Sandy Bridge and post-Sandy Bridge machines are discernible to normal people with normal screens.
I spoke to a high-end audiophile/videophile dealer, and he tells me that the state of video technology (Blu-Ray) is pretty stable. In fact, it is more stable than it has ever been in the past 40 years. I don't think "improvements" like 4K are going to be noticed by those other consumers in the top 1%. This seems like a first-world problem to me - how to cope with the arrival of 4K? Reply
digitalrefuse - Monday, April 23, 2012 - link... Anything being discussed on a Web site like Anandtech is going to be "a first-world problem"...
That being said, there's not much of a difference between 720 lines of non-interlaced picture and 1080 lines of interlaced picture... If anything a 720P picture tends to be a little better looking than 1080I.
The transition to 4K can't come soon enough. I'm less concerned with video playback and more concerned with desktop real estate - I'd love to have one monitor with more resolution than two 1080P monitors in tandem. Reply
ganeshts - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkOK, one of my favourite topics :)
Why does an iOS device's Retina Display work in the minds of the consumers? What prevents one from wishing for a Retina Display in the TV or computer monitor? The latter is what will drive 4K adoption.
The reason 4K will definitely get a warmer welcome compared to 3D is the fact that there are no ill-effects (eye strain / headaches) in 4K compared to 3D. Reply
Exodite - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkWe can certainly hope, though with 1080p having been the de-facto high-end standard for desktops for almost a decade I'm not holding my breath.
Until there's an affordable alternative for improving vertical resolution on the desktop I'll stick to my two 1280*1024 displays.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the improvements in resolution made in mobile displays spill over into the desktop but I'd not be surprised if the most affordable way of getting a 2048*1536 display on the desktop ends up being a gutted Wi-Fi iPad blu-tacked to your current desktop display. Reply
aliasfox - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkIt would be IPS, too!
:-P Reply
Exodite - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkPersonally I couldn't care less about IPS, though I acknowledge some do.
Any trade-off in latency or ghosting just isn't worth it, as accurate color reproduction and better viewing angles just doesn't matter to me. Reply
ZekkPacus - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkHigher latency and ghosting that maybe one in fifty thousand users will notice, if that. This issue has been blown out of all proportion by the measurable stats at all costs brigade - MY SCREEN HAS 2MS SO IT MUST BE BETTER. The average human eye cannot detect any kind of ghosting/input lag in anything under a 10-14ms refresh window. Only the most seasoned pro gamers would notice, and only if you sat the monitors side by side.
A slight loss in meaningless statistics is worth it if you get better, more vibrant looking pictures and something where you CAN actually see the difference. Reply
SlyNine - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkI take it you've done hundreds of hours of research and documented your studies and methodology so we can look at the results.
What if Anand did videocard reviews the same way your spouting out these "facts". They would be worthless conjector, just like your information.
Drop the, but its a really small number argument. Until you really document what the human eye/brain is capable all your saying its a really small number.
Well Thz is a really small number to. And we can the human body can pick up things as little as 700 Tera Hz. Its called the EYE!. Reply
Exodite - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkLook, you're of a different opinion - that's fine.
I, however, don't want IPS.
Because I can't appreciate the "vibrant" colors, nor the better accuracy or bigger viewing angles.
Indeed, my preferred display has a slightly cold hue and I always turn saturation and brightness way down because it makes the display more restful for my eyes.
I work with text and when I don't do that I play games.
I'd much rather have a 120Hz display with even lower latency than I'd take any improvement in areas that I don't care about and won't even notice.
Also, if you're going to make outlandish claims about how many people can or cannot notice this or that you should probably back it up. Reply
Samus - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkExodite, you act like IPS has awful latency or something.
If we were talking about PVA, I wouldn't be responding to an otherwise reasonable arguement, but we're not. The latency between IPS and TN is virtually identical, especially to the human eye and mind. High frame (1/1000) cameras are required to even measure the difference between IPS and TN.
Yes, TN is 'superior' with its 2ms latency, but IPS is superior with its <6ms latency, 97.4% Adobe RGB accuracy, 180 degree bi-plane viewing angles, and lower power consumption/heat output (either in LED or cold cathode configurations) due to less grid processing.
This arguement is closed. Anybody who says they can tell a difference between 2ms and sub 6ms displays is being a whiny bitch. Reply
Exodite - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkAnyone that says they can tell any difference between a 65% and 95% color gamut is whiny bitch.
See, I can play that game too!
Even if I were to buy your "factual" argument, and I don't, I've clearly stated that I care nothing about the things you consider advantages.
I sit facing the center of my display, brightness and gamma is turned down to minimum levels and saturation is low. Measured power draw at the socket is 9W.
It's a 2MS TN panel, obviously.
All I want is more vertical space at a reasonable price, though a 120Hz display would be nice as well.
My friend is running a 5ms 1080p eIPS display and between that and what I have I'd still pick my current display.
End of the day it's personal preference, which I made abundantly clear in my first post.
Though it seems displays, and IPS panels in general, is starting to attract the same amount of douchiness as the audiophile community. Reply
Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkOh, I know I shouldn't--REALLY shouldn't--get involved in this. But you would have to be monochromatically colorblind in order to not see the difference between 65% and 95% color gamut.
I'm not saying that the 95% gamut is better for everyone; in fact, unless the 95% monitor has a decent sRGB setting, the 65% monitor is probably better for most people. But to suggest that you have to be a hyper-sensitive "whiny b---h" to tell the difference between the two is to take an indefensible position. Reply
Exodite - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkYeah, you shouldn't have gotten into this.
Point being that whatever the difference is I bet you the same can be said about latency.
Besides, as I've said from the start it's about the things that you personally appreciate.
My preferred settings absolutely destroy any kind of color fidelity anyway, and that doesn't even slightly matter as I don't work with professional imagery.
But I can most definitely appreciate the difference between TN and even eIPS when it comes to gaming. And I consider the former superior.
I don't /mind/ higher color fidelity or better viewing angles, I'm just sure as hell not going to pay any extra for it. Reply
Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer - Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - linkI agree completely that, as you say, "it's about the things you personally appreciate." If you have color settings you like that work on a TN monitor that you can stand to deal with for long periods of time without eye strain, I would never tell you that you should not use them because they don't conform to some arbitrary standard. Everybody's eyes and brain wiring are different, and there are plenty of reasons why people use computers that don't involve color accuracy.
But as it happens, you picked a poor counterexample, because I defy you to put a Dell U2412M (~68% of aRGB) next to a U2410 set to aRGB mode (somewhere close to 100% of aRGB) and tell me you can't see a difference.
For that matter, I challenge you to find me someone who literally can't see the difference between the two in terms of color reproduction. That person will have something seriously wrong with their color vision. Reply
Exodite - Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - linkTo be fair the counterexample wasn't about being correct, because the poster I replied to weren't, but rather about showing what an asshat argument he was making.
That said it's about the frame of reference.
Would you be able to tell the difference working with RAW images pulled from your DSLR or other high-quality imagery?
Sure, side-by-side I have no doubt you would.
Would you be able to tell the difference when viewing the desktop, a simple web form or an editor where the only color are black, white, two shades of blue and grey?
Especially once both displays are calibrated to the point I'm comfortable with them. (Cold hue, 0% brightness, low saturation, negative gamma, high contrast.)
I dare say not. Reply
DarkUltra - Monday, April 30, 2012 - linkI'd like to see a "blind" test on this. Is there a percieved difference between 6 and 2ms? Blind as in the test subjects (nyahahaa) does not know what ms they look at.
Test with both a 60 and 120hz display. I would guess the moving object, an explorer window, for instance, would simply be easier to look at and look less blurred as it moves over the screen. People used to fast paced gaming on CRT monitors or "3d ready" 120Hz monitors would see more of a difference. Reply
Origin32 - Saturday, April 28, 2012 - linkI really don't see any need for improvement in video resolution just yet. I myself have nearly perfect eyesight and can be extremely annoyed by artifacts, blocky compression, etc, but I find 720p to be detailed enough even for action movies which rely solely on the special effects. In most movies 1080p appears too sharp to me, add to that the fact that most movies are already oversharpened and post-processed and the increased bitrate (and therefore filesize) of 1080p and I see more downside than upside to it.
This all goes double for 4K video.
That being said, I do still want 4K badly for gaming, viewing pictures, reading text, there's tons of things it'll be useful for.
But not for film, not for me. Reply
Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkAnother advantage of a 4K screen (one that has at least 2160 vertical resolution) is that you could have alternating-line passive 3D at full 1080p resolution for each eye. I'm not an expert on how this all works, but it seems to me that the circular polarization layer is a sort of afterthought for the LCD manufacturing process, which is why vertical viewing angles are narrow (there's a gap between the pixels and the 3D polarizing layer).
In my opinion, it would be pretty awesome if that layer were integrated into the panel in such a way that vertical viewing angles weren't an issue, and so that any monitor is basically a 3D monitor (especially high-quality IPS displays). But I don't really know how practical that is. Reply
peterfares - Thursday, September 27, 2012 - linka 2560x1600 monitor (available for years) has 1.975 times the amount of pixels as a 1920x1080 screen.
4K would be even better, though! Reply
nathanddrews - Monday, April 23, 2012 - link4K is a very big deal for a couple reasons: pixel density and film transparency.
From the perspective of pixel density, I happily point to the ASUS Transformer 1080p, iPad 3, and any 2560x 27" or 30" monitor. Once you go dense, you never go... back... Anyway, as great as 1080p is, as great as Blu-ray is, it could be so much better! I project 1080p at about 120" in my dedicated home theater - it looks great - but I will upgrade to 4K without hesitation.
Which leads me to the concept of film transparency. While many modern movies are natively being shot in 4K using RED or similar digital cameras, the majority are still on good ol' 35mm film. 4K is considered by most professionals and enthusiasts to be the baseline for an excellent transfer of a 35mm source to the digital space - some argue 6K-8K is ideal. Factor in 65mm, 70mm, and IMAX and you want to scan your original negative in at least 8K to capture all the fine detail (as far as I know, no one is professionally scanning above 8K yet).
Of course recording on RED4K or scanning 35mm at 4K or 8K is a pointless venture if video filtering like noise reduction or edge enhancement are applied during the mastering or encoding process. Like smearing poop on a diamond.
You can't bring up "normal" people when discussing the bleeding edge. The argument is moot. Those folks don't jump on board for any new technology until it hits the Walmart Black Friday ad. Reply
MGSsancho - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkWhile I agree with most everything there is something I would like to nit pick on, While making a digital copy of old film in what ever format you use, more often than not a lot of touching up needs to be done. Wizard of OZ and all the 007 films can be an example. (I am ignoring the remastering of Star Wars and Lucas deciding to add in 'features' vs giving us a cleaned up remaster sans bonuses.) Still when your spending millions in remaster I expect at least not muddy the entire thing up.
However I feel we need to bring in higher bitrates first. I will not apologize over this, yes encoders are great but a 4mbs 1080p stream still is not as good as nice as a 20mb-60mb vbr blu-ray film The feeling that a craptastic 4k or even 2k bitrate will ruin the expedience for the non informed. Also notice I am ignore an entire difference debate whether the current can candle true HD streaming to every household, at least in the US. Reply
nathanddrews - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkHigher bit rates will be inherent with 4K or 2K over 1080p, but bit rates aren't the be all end all. 4K will likely use HVEC H.265 which offers double the compression with better quality than H.264.
Fixing scratches, tears, or other issues with film elements should never be a reason for mass application of filtering. Reply
SlyNine - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkH.264 doesn't even offer 2x the compression over Mpeg 2. I doubt H.265 offers 2x over 264.
"This means that the HEVC codec can achieve the same quality as H.264 with a bitrate saving of around 39-44%."
Source http://www.vcodex.com/h265.html Reply
Casper42 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkI LOL'd at "Walmart Black Friday" Nathan :)
And for the OP, 32", really?
Its completely understandable you don't see the difference on a screen that size.
Step up to a 60" screen and then go compare 720p to 1080p (who uses 1080i anymore, oh thats right, crappy 32" LCDs. Don't get me wrong, I own 2, but they go in the bedroom and my office, not my Family Room.)
I think 60" +/- 5" is pretty much the norm now a days for the average middle class family's main movie watching TV. Reply
anirudhs - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkCable TV maxes out at 1080i ( I have Time Warner). My TV can do 1080P. Reply
nathanddrews - Monday, April 23, 2012 - link1080i @ 60 fields per second when deinterlaced is the same as 1080p @ 30 fields per second. The picture quality is almost entirely dependent upon your display's ability to deinterlace. However, cable TV is generally of a lower bit rate than OTA or satellite. Reply
SlyNine - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkYea but because of shimmering effects progressive images almost always looks better.
If the video is 2:2 or 3:2 many tv's can build the frame in to a progressive image anymore. Reply
Exodite - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkIn the US, possibly, but I dare say 55-60" TVs are far from the norm everywhere. Reply
peterfares - Thursday, September 27, 2012 - link2560x 27" and 30" monitors are NOT very pixel dense. 27" is slightly more dense (~12.5% more dense) than the standard display but the 30" is only about 4% more dense than a standard display
a 1920x1080 13.3" display is 71.88% more dense than a standard display. Reply
dcaxax - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkOn a 32" you will certainly not see a difference between 720p and 1080p - it is barely visible on a 40". Once you go to 52"+ however the difference becomes visible.
On a 61" screen as you suggest the difference will be quite visible.
Having said that I am still very happy with the Quality of properly mastered DVD's which are only 576p on my 47" TV.
It's not that I can't tell the difference, its just that it doesn't matter to me that much, which is why I also don't bother with MadVR and all that, and just stick to Windows Media Center for my HTPC.
Everyone's priorities are different. Reply
Midwayman - Wednesday, April 25, 2012 - linkHave you ever seen a 4k display on a uncompressed signal? The clarity is just astounding.
I'm more concerned about the ability to deliver content with that kind of bandwidth requirements. We already get hdtv signals that are so compressed that they're barely better than a really really good SDTV signal. Reply
MobiusStrip - Friday, April 27, 2012 - linkMost of what you see labeled "HD" (or variants thereof) is marketing bullshit. You're not getting HD when the bitrate is 3 megabits per second, especially when anything on the screen is moving.
You can blow a VHS picture up to "HD" resolution, and it won't be HD. That's exactly what's happening in most consumer devices today.
"4K" is rapidly emerging as the next fraud. We'll see the same crap blown up to 3840 x whatever (barely even 4K by any standard), but containing 1K of real resolution if you're lucky.
The era of increasing quality is over, as consumers prove over and over that they don't care about quality. Reply
A5 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - link"Otherwise, the Ivy Bridge platform has everything that a HTPC user would ever need."
I'd like an open-source (or at least) free encoder that supports QuickSync and not having to be picky with my DRAM purchase to use GPU-accelerated decoders before I say that.
Other than that, it seems to be good enough for the basic HTPC functionality - can't wait for the new i3s and Pentiums to see if the low-end parts are good enough! Reply
ganeshts - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkYou can use GPU accelerated decoders even with DDR3-1333 DRAM. You need to go high speed / low latency only if you want rendering through madVR.
Use QuickSync Decoder or DXVA2 Native in LAV or MPC Video Decoder + EVR-CP to get full decode and rendering acceleration without worry about the DRAM. Reply
babgvant - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkDVRMSToolbox (DTB) has included a QS capable transcoding solution for over a year. The main benefit to using it vs. the other retail options is that it supports EDL files during transcoding.
DTB is FOSS, the QS dlls are just FSS. Reply
A5 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkCool stuff. Hadn't heard of your tool before today, I'll make sure to check it out when I get my HDHR Prime from Woot. Reply
shawkie - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkI've experimented with madVR a bit but in the end the problems with playing back DVDs and Blu-rays with menus has so far stopped me from using it seriously. However, I've seen reports claiming that Ivy Bridge includes higher quality upscaling within Windows Media Player (as part of the EVR I suppose). Any evidence of this? Reply
ganeshts - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkYou can take a look at the PowerDVD chroma upscaling screenshots linked in the text. I was really surprised at the quality (until I zoomed to 300%, I couldn't actually decipher the difference between PowerDVD and madVR!). Similar behavior with MPC-HC using MPCVideoDec.
Btw, can you link me to the reports that you mention? Reply
shawkie - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkhttp://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architectur...
This was one of them. I also found a comment from one of the engineers that explained that they were using a higher quality upsampling algorithm too but I can't find it now. Reply
ganeshts - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkAndrew @ MissingRemote just refreshed my memory about this post by Eric Gur: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1551981#po... Reply
shawkie - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkWell found! So nothing new in Ivy Bridge then... Reply
shawkie - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkAlso, when we are complaining about 23.976Hz versus something like 23.972 how can you be sure that your measurement is accurate? I would think that for most HTPC users the important thing is that the video clock and audio clock are derived from a common clock. Is there some way you can check for this? I'm also interested to know if automatic lip-sync over HDMI is working properly - it doesn't seem to work on my AMD E-450. Reply
ganeshts - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkWhether the clock is accurate or not, what matters it the number of frames dropped or repeated by the renderer because of this. madVR clearly indicates this in the Statistics.
Yes, you are right about video and audio clock derived from a common clock, but I am not sure on how to check for this.
Does lip sync not work for you on E-450, but does work on some other machine? I have played with the e-450 only briefly in the Zotac Zbox Nano XS, and I did watch one movie completely. I didn't have lip sync issues to warrant digging in further.. I do agree my sample set is extremely small. Reply
shawkie - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkI agree that what matters is dropped frames. I'm not absolutely sure how madVR decides when to drop frames. As I see it there are four options
1) lock playback to the video clock and drop or repeat audio frames
2) lock playback to the audio clock and drop or repeat video frames
3) lock playback to the video clock and resample the audio
4) lock playback to some other clock (maybe the processor clock) and drop or repeat both video and audio frames.
My guess its probably doing 2 which would make the reported dropped frames a good measurement. If it was doing 1 or 3 then it wouldn't drop frames. If its doing 4 then I'd argue that its a faulty renderer.
Regarding the lip sync its difficult to be very scientific about it because I don't have any suitable test material. My TV definitely introduces a significant delay and for some reason I haven't had much luck correcting it with manual adjustment on my AV receiver. Maybe it varies with frame rate or maybe the delay is outside the range I can set manually. When I enable automatic lip sync it does seem to correct things for the set top box and standalone DVD player but for my E-450 (an ASUS mini-ITX motherboard) it seems to be way off. Its quite possible its a bug in PowerDVD or that it depends on the format of the audio track or I don't know what else.
I do have machines that I could try but it would really help to have some test material in a range of frame rates and audio formats. Reply
ghost6007 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkThis article is great commentary on the video aspects of an Intel HTPC setup however nowhere on either the processor discussions or the Z77 motherboard articles was any attempt made to actually review the audio portions of HTPC setups which is still a major part of any Home Theater.
IMO if you want a complete comprehensive look at HTPC capabilities of any platform addressing such things as audio decoding, audio pass through over HDMI and audio quality are a must until then it is not a complete review. Reply
ganeshts - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkHDMI Audio Passthrough has now become a 'commodity' feature. It is an issue in only media players now.
Yes, I agree there are some other audio tests that could be done, but we had to operate within time constraints. I apologize for the same. Reply
ghost6007 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkI hope you guys do a more comprehensive review once these chips are available via retail or even a Ivy Bridge HTPC build.
This new platform seems like an excellent candidate for a powerful low power/noise HTPC setup. Reply
Southernsharky - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkHas there been some kind of study on HTPC users to find out what the average is?
To me the big problem with this article is that it makes too many assumptions, the biggest of which is that we are all just watching videos on our tv.
I do recognize that there is a market for that, but I'm sure that I speak for most of us when I say that I hope that is just the beginning of the HTPC and not the goal.
When an integrated GPU can game at 1080p (or hopefully better... let me know. Until then my own "HTPC" will have a graphics card. Reply
aliasfox - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkI kind of have to agree. video/audio playback maybe the *primary* function, but as my HTPC is hooked up to the biggest screen in the apartment, I wouldn't mind throwing the odd game on there.
My current HTPC does (very) light gaming, overnight video transcoding, light photoshop, and the (very rare) video edit. Oh, and it plays video and audio. Please don't ask what it is. Reply
Marlin1975 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkWhy are you testing with a HD4000? The 4000 only comes in the higher and more costly chips? Most lowwer/Mid Ivy chips will use HD2500 video.
The price differance is enough to buy a cheaper chip and get a full sep. video card that has its own memory, or wait for Trinity. Reply
jwilliams4200 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkNot really. I think HD4000 is just about right for an HTPC. Later, when the Ivy Bridge core-i3's come out, I think the i3-3225, with HD4000, will be the first choice for HTPCs. Reply
shawkie - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkIf the i7-3770T is actually ever available to buy then from a power consumption point of view it would also be a good choice (with plenty of CPU headroom for the times where GPU decoding doesn't work) . From a cost point of view it might be a bit on the high side I suppose. Reply
flashbacck - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkAs one of the few people still running a dedicated htpc, I appreciate the article. Reply
anirudhs - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkYou mean use your HTPC for all media, including HD-DVR and Blu-Ray? I am just getting into it now. Reply
jwcalla - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkGetting an i7 for an HTPC is like getting a Mustang GT500 to drive Miss Daisy. Come on now, is AT a review site for Daddy Warbucks types?
Ok serious question though. What's the Intel IVB driver / HW acceleration situation on Linux? I couldn't imagine dropping $100 on Windows 7 for something as simple as HTPC functionality. For nvidia we're talking $10 Geforce card + VDPAU + lowest end CPU + least amount of RAM possible + linux = HTPC solution. Or a Zotac box. Can Intel compete with that? Reply
ExarKun333 - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkThis review is really testing the HD4000 implementation. When the dual-cores are released with the HD4000, the GPU will be exactly the same, so almost everything will be directly applicable there too. Reply
anirudhs - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkIf you plan on getting cable onto your PC you have no choice but Windows due to DRM issues. Some channels will not be recorded by MythTV. Reply
CoffeeGrinder - Monday, April 23, 2012 - linkWith that P8H77-M config, if you use a double slot GPU in one PCIex16 slot (and so lose one PCIex1 slot) and use TV tuners in both on the remaining slots PCIex1 and PCIex16 does using the second PCIex16 slot result in the first PCIex16 running at x8 ? Reply
ganeshts - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkIf the second PCIe is occupied, then it will cause the first x16 to run at x8. Both these slots are electrically connected, so when you need even one lane, it takes eight away from the first PCIe slot for it. Reply
Bluestraw - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkI see you didn't test madVR in Full Screen Exclusive mode - can you elaborate on the reason for this please? I read over at missingremote that FSE improved the situation significantly for madVR with the HD4000? Reply
ganeshts - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkThe FSE mode performed visibly worse for me compared to FSW in the few cases that I tried. I have got the rest of the settings that Andrew @ MR used. I may try it and see if it improves things. My aim was to get madVR to render without any dropped frames, and I was able to get that at DDR3-1600 (which is what Andrew used too) for almost all the clips I had (except 720p60, which I didn't try till yesterday). Reply
satish0072001 - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkVideo decoding and rendering benchmarks
Can you provide the learning guide how you've got those scores? It will be very helpful for some of us... I know about hqv score.. but this one is new to me.. kindly help :)
From where can I get these benchmarks if i have to compare my existing system with the IVB results? Reply
LuckyKnight - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkIn the article there is a promise of a BIOS update to fix the 23.97Hz issue. Wasn't something similar also promised for sandy bridge in the same article over a year ago!! That never happened did it. I want to build a HTPC already! Reply
ganeshts - Tuesday, April 24, 2012 - linkWell, something did happen with SNB.. they got it to 23.972 Hz :) If you think about it, video cards with AMD and NVIDIA GPUs also end up in the 23.974 - 23.978 range, and only very rarely do I actually see a GPU outputting exactly 23.976023976 Hz.
If Intel gets between 23.974 - 23.978 in a stable manner, I will consider the matter closed. Reply
Shaggie - Thursday, April 26, 2012 - linkIs there still the problem like with SB that the driver puts color space to limited range when connecting to the tv with HDMI and resets it with every refresh rate switch/reboot with the integrated graphics? Reply
Stabgotham - Monday, April 30, 2012 - linkIs there a point to getting an H77 board with Ivy Bridge if all you are using it for is as an HTPC (sans overclock)? I can't tell what the benefit would be to justify the price increase. Reply
crisliv - Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - linkNice article! As always.
About the note:
"The good news is that Intel is claiming that this issue is fully resolved in the latest production BIOS on their motherboard. This means that BIOS updates to the current boards from other manufacturers should also get the fix. Hopefully, we should be able to independently test and confirm this soon."
What does it mean exactly? Does it mean that this BIOS update should get refresh rate closer to the 23.976 than it was in your test? And "on their motherboard" - does it mean that this BIOS update is for Intel MB only?
True that in AMD and nVidia the out of the box refresh rate for 23 is never precisely 23.976, but the custom timings on nVidia allows you to get closer to is. There is no custom timing settings on the HD4000, right? Reply
LuckyKnight - Thursday, June 14, 2012 - linkDo we have an update regarding 23.967hz? Reply
theboyknowsclass - Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - linkit's been a while, and couldn't find any follow up Reply
Hdale85 - Thursday, August 23, 2012 - linkI've been looking at an Ivy Bridge setup with the H77/Z77 chipset but I can't find any information about the audio support? Can it bitstream TrueHD and DTS-HD tracks? The older chipsets do it so I would find it strange that the new ones don't, but I don't see it mentioned on any of the new boards or in the intel information. Reply


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Need a Fertility Test in Santa Paula, CA? Simply order online 24/7 and get a fast, affordable Fertility Test at a lab near you (Find More Locations):
Why would I get a Fertility Test?
A Fertility Test can help people in Santa Paula, CA check for fertility through various blood and urine markers. A Fertility Test is part of a standard evaluation or as a precursor to in-vitro fertilization.
How much does a Fertility Test cost?
Our Fertility Test prices include the doctor's order that you need to get tested in Santa Paula, CA, all lab fees and taxes, and a pdf copy of your results. For current prices, please CLICK HERE.
What does a Fertility Test report look like?
For a sample report of a popular Fertility Test panel, please CLICK HERE.
We are delighted to offer a Fertility Test in Santa Paula, CA.
Fertility Test in other cities near Santa Paula, CA:Camarillo | Fillmore | Moorpark | Newbury Park | Oak View | Ojai | Oxnard | Piru | Point Mugu Nawc | Port Hueneme | Port Hueneme Cbc Base | Somis | Thousand Oaks | Ventura


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