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ARM's Cortex A7: Bringing Cheaper Dual-Core & More Power Efficient High-End Devicesby Anand Lal Shimpi on 10/19/2011 12:31 PM EST
- Posted in
- CPUs
- Cortex A15
- Smartphones
- Mobile
- Cortex A7
- Tablets
- SoC
76 Comments
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dagamer34 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkIt's this kind of heterogeneous SoC structure with different CPU architectures on a single die that will nail Intel to the wall and prevent them from ever really penetrating the mobile market. Reply
A5 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkIntel is perfectly capable of doing the same thing, so I'm not sure why you say that. They do it now in a different direction with the on-die SB GPU... Reply
metafor - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThey won't be able to implement a small, energy-efficient processor similar to Kingfisher (Cortex A7). While at performance/complexity levels of A15, the x86 decode penalty is relatively small, as you get down to ~100mW levels at the die area we're talking about, there simply isn't an x86 core out there that is feasible. Reply
jeremyshaw - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkIntel already has the CE4100, a SoC designed for TVs. It just isn't a main point they are focusing on right now, as they are competing against IBM RISC (some 200W per CPU is possible on those :eek:), while having to scale all the way down. Intel even has to focus on IGP, wireless, ethernet, etc. Intel is doing the best they can against an overwheling slew of competitors at all angles in all directions. However, I do not have doubts in their ability to compete when why need to. Right now, they have some big fish to fry (IBM), and it's not like Intel hasn't made ARM chips before (XScale).
Not to mention... they still hold their traditional fab advantage over everyone else.
But do I think Intel may lose out if they don't start making some serious pushes into the smartphone SoC market? Yes, I do. However, Google/Intel have already anounced all future versions of Android will be officiall support x86, in addition to ARM. This works for existing Android apps, too, due to the JIT nature of Android apps (Dalvik). Reply
jeremyshaw - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkthe next time I post on a tablet... I won't, lol. Reply
name99 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - link"Intel is doing the best they can against an overwheling slew of competitors at all angles in all directions."
Actually Intel has made the deliberate decision that FULL x86 compatibility trumps everything else. This saddles Atom with a huge amount of basically useless baggage that ARM is not carrying. This baggage takes up space, uses power, and, most importantly, makes it that much more difficult to execute and validate a chip fast.
This is not "doing the best they can". It is a stupid, short-sighted decision made by execs who have drunk their own koolaid and can't imagine that some decisions made by Intel in the 1980s may not be optimal for today. Atom SHOULD have been a stripped down x86-64 CPU with EVERYTHING not essential to that mission jettisoned. One (modern) way of doing everything and the rest --- 286 mode, V x86 mode, PAE, SMM, x87, MMX etc etc tossed overboard. But that ship has sailed. Intel have made their bed, and now they will have to lie in it --- the same mindset that sank iTanic will sink Atom in its target market. Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkx86 compatibility is not a significant burden on modern chips; transistor density is increasing far faster than the number of x86 instructions is, and Intel's chips have been effectively RISC since the Pentium Pro, when they started translating x86 into micro-ops internally. CISC on the outside, RISC on the inside.
In 2008, when Anand wrote his Atom architecture article (http://www.anandtech.com/show/2493/3), he pointed out AMD had told him that x86 decoding consumed only 10% of the transistor count of the K8, and current transistor densities are ~35x higher than they were then (130nm -> 22nm).
By that math, that means that x86 decoding consumes only about 0.3% of a modern desktop processor, almost inconsequential. Reply
metafor - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkIt is not a significant burden on modern large chips. The type of profile that the Cortex A7 fits in (~0.5mm^2) will see a large burden from x86 decoding.
On a desktop or even low-profile laptop chip, x86 compatibility doesn't cost much. On a tiny CPU meant to only process a smartphone's background processes, it can cost a lot. Reply
name99 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkAllow me to explain how English works to you. You see this statement "and, most importantly, makes it that much more difficult to execute and validate a chip fast."?
That means if you wish to refute my point, you have to attack the claim that I said was MOST IMPORTANT.
Do you deny that Intel has an insanely complex task designing and validating their chips, vastly more so than ARM? Do you deny that the major reason for that complexity is all the x86 baggage? Reply
iwod - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkLike i wrote below, Atom and SandyBridge are different thing. Atom does not support SSE 4, Some Do not support Hyper Threading, Some dont have Intel 64, and it also lacks the new SandyBridge AVX.
I am not expert, but since Intel Atom and SB will have different Micro-Op Cache, Unless you write your software on the lowest common denominator, which is the Atom. You cant have the software works the same way as ARM has currently show with A7 and A9.
Yes, with some software tricks and profile i suppose the problem isn't Very hard to tackle. But in terms of software development ARM should be much easier. Reply
Manabu - Saturday, October 22, 2011 - linkThe decode portion of the chip also have to grow if one wants higher IPC/power efficiency. So it is probably more than 0.3% nowadays. Reply
fic2 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThe problem with Atom power wise was Intel stupidly decided to saddle it with a chipset that was 3 (?) fab generations behind (Atom: 45nm, chipset: 130nm) and used more power than the actual cpu. I don't know if they have corrected this part of the problem but it seems to be an Intel trait - get most of it right but screw up on the last mile thing. (Compare that to AMD that either gets it right (Zacate, Llano) or gets it very wrong (Bulldozer) or ARM which seems to get a most everything right). Reply
fteoath64 - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkGood point. Chipset development has been a secondary priority for Intel, this way they ensure the combo solution is good-enough for the market to make the volumes they intended. Looking into the past when other chipset makers like Nvidia, AMD and SiS, even VIA at some stage did a better chipset implementation than Intel.
Atom was not aggressive enough to leverage low-power and has little integration of other SoC components like most of the chipset features. At least most of the north/south bridges leaving only external I/O interfaces. A lousy slow GPU is their burden, so plenty of legacy not solved.
Intel had better be careful because ARM A15 has the capability to upset X86 in future by software emulation with multicore heterogeneous chips. Reply
fteoath64 - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkWell said. Atom has already sunk, just that Intel is in denial mode. I was suggesting that Intel swallows their pride and GET an Arm license so they can design and manufacture these chips and compete with Qualcomm and Samsung in the ARM market. At least it will give them some volume game instead of having zero in mobile.
If they continue with Atom architecture, they will learn a costly mistake later on. This way they can evolve a single core SB low power and maybe a bare-bones atom core small.BIG evolution. It could just secures their Win8 tablets for X86 (if that market ever develops...). Reply
B3an - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkA GPU is not a CPU. And intel have more than once before that they are NOT capable of matching ARM. And i dont expect them to for a long time, if ever. Reply
kylewat - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkEnglish please Reply
Wolfpup - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkYeah, I was thinking "hey, Intel could stick an Atom on a better chip" before he said that.
This IS very interesting (as is what Nvidia is doing even before this), but it's interesting because it's an interesting idea...I don't see how it effects Intel one way or the other. Obviously if other companies can do it, Intel can do it too. Reply
JPForums - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - link<quote>It's this kind of heterogeneous SoC structure with different CPU architectures on a single die that will nail Intel to the wall and prevent them from ever really penetrating the mobile market. </quote>
The idea of heterogeneous architectures isn't new. ARM is simply applying them differently. IBM's cell processor (used in the PS3) uses a combination of general purpose processing core(s) and specialized lighter weight cores. Quite a while back Intel's vision of the future involved processors with a combination of a few complex heavy weight cores and many lightweight cores (think Larrabee or similar). With power saving features largely complete and an upcoming GPU that is supposed to be competitive I wouldn't be surprised if Intel started to get more serious about bringing this to market. They have already made great strives with their tera-scale research: 48 core single chip, 80 core research chip.
What ARM did that was innovative, was to use a heterogeneous architecture for the purposes of power savings, and to make it appear homogenous. I would argue that with Intel's focus on power gating and other power saving features, the idea of using a heterogeneous architecture to save power hasn't escaped them. However, full instruction set compatibility between the two architectures makes things much simpler as the different cores remain largely transparent to the OS and applications. While it isn't really that hard to develop separate code paths to use more efficient instructions when available, this does raise the complexity on the OS for thread scheduling. Hiding these cores is mostly a convenience, though. It puts the burden of moving to a lower power core largely on the chip and again reduces the complexity of the thread scheduler.
A more effective use of heterogeneous architectures would be to reveal the presence of all cores to the OS and to individually power gate them. (Individual power states would be even better.) This would allow the use of lower power cores any time for threads that don't require higher performance. I.E. two high performance apps and low OS background tasks would take place on two A15 cores and an A7 rather than three A15s. Further, once the OS starts intelligently assigning tasks to processors, it can become advantageous to have slight differences in the architectures of some cores to support specific tasks.
I see this move as a necessary one to get OS makers and app developers thinking along the lines of heterogeneous processing while providing a progressive move over path. Intel's I64 architecture failed largely due to the fact that it forced a clean break from past applications. AMD's A64 architecture succeeded because people didn't have to leave behind old applications and code going forward (at least no until they were ready to). That said, I don't think ARM intends to stop here long term. While a cell like approach with significantly different cores would be less than optimal, smaller differences like the lack of full NEON or SSE4 support on lower power cores shouldn't be much of a burden once the OS/apps are smart enough to route threads to a core with the necessary units available. Reply
MJEvans - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThis is exactly the kind of competition that the market has needed. AMD used to be able to keep up to Intel's heals with intelligent decisions and hand-tuning to make the most of being on a mature process node as opposed to a cutting/bleeding edge one. ARM's decisions here represent the logic of applying that at a macroscopic (architectural) level. Reply
Arnulf - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI was contemplating this few months ago before Kal-El was described in media and existence of its extra core revealed to public. Something along the lines of 2x Atom + 2x Sandy Bridge cores, with all cores visible to the OS.
OS should be able to identify each core and allocate the workload to it accordingly - i.e. OS would grab one of the weaker cores for itself, schedule CPU intensive processes on more powerful cores and have one low-power core in reserve just in case (for antivirus etc.).
This would result in CPUs with maximum TDP only ~5-10W above existing models yet it would allow for far less conext switching. There is no point in hiding those weaker cores from the OS; instead OS should be intelligent enough to to utilize them to the fullest extent. Reply
psychobriggsy - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkFor seamless *running* application migration between the different core types, they should both support the exact same instruction set extensions, which currently Atom and SB don't. I don't think that AMD's Bobcat and Bulldozer do either.
I wouldn't say no to a chip comprising of a Bulldozer module or two (like Trinity), and a couple of Bobcat cores as well for lower-power modes. This would surely save a lot of power over even Bulldozer in its lowest operational clock/power state.
However neither AMD nor Intel can compete in power against this ARM technology - A15 for power (around Bobcat performance per core) and A7 for power saving (around 1GHz Atom performance per core I would imagine). As soon as Intel takes a step towards lower power with Atom, ARM moves the goalposts. Even an Atom core implemented at 22nm can't compete with a 28nm 0.5mm^2 core... which is practically free in terms of silicon (even with a small L2 cache added on top). Reply
gostan - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkWouldn't a dynamic frequency design (like speedstep) a better implementation? Rather than having two different architectures exchanging data and handling different tasks. Reply
mythun.chandra - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkDVFS is in use in almost all current-gen SoC's. This certainly does bring with it power saving, but given the present nature of workloads on most mobile devices, the CPU is either in standby (most of the time) or ramped up fully (for most of the remainder). Having cores running at different frequency steps, while a good idea on paper, can prove detrimental to performance if not implemented correctly.
Having a low-power 'companion' core shows power savings more readily, especially given the extremes in mobile CPU workload (standby-to-full-clock). The companion core is capable of running the exact set of tasks as the main-core(s), albeit at lower performance levels. This is completely transparent to the OS and software layers above since they are in fact the exact same architecture (or instruction set, to be clearer). Reply
metafor - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkEven at the lowest frequency and voltage, a complex core will still use more power than a simple core. Take a Cortex A5 compared to a Cortex A15 -- even if you step down the voltage to minimum (~0.7V) on the Cortex A15, it would still consume more power than the Cortex A5 at max speed.
And that's not even accounting for the power savings operating an A5 at lower voltage/frequency would do. Reply
bnolsen - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThere are issues like transistor leakage, etc that larger cores cannot fully overcome just by clocking down. This is why there's a move to unbalanced MP. Reply
fteoath64 - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - link@gostan: "Wouldn't a dynamic frequency design (like speedstep) a better implementation?"
NO!. You cannot change the number of pipelines in the CPU, nor the components it needed, cache, eu, iu, fpu etc. So the number of transistors needed current is the same even with lower current. If the number of transistors are 1/3 then you get 3X savings!. so multiple simpler cores saves power way more, ir scales well. Reply
Rick83 - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkYet when Intel demo'ed their claremont prototype they were able to demonstrate scaling by a factor of 1000.
This renders the multi-chip approach an expensive crutch. Reply
rupaniii - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI remember NEC ascribing to much the same philosophy many years ago when they started doing embedded multi core development.
Did ARM tread on similar ground or is it me? Reply
Guspaz - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkPeople have been doing this with ARM designs for ages anyhow, although not necessarily for power efficiency reasons.
Nintendo has done it since the GBA. The GBA shipped with an ARM7 and Z80 and the DS shipped with an ARM7 and ARM9. The 3DS was the first to go homogeneous, with two ARM11 cores.
To go off on a bit of a tangent, the 3DS's CPU is rather disappointing, as two 266MHz ARM11 chips is pretty pathetic, with similar performance to a first-gen iPhone. The PS Vita's quad-core Cortex A9 probably has 10-15x the performance... Makes me kind of regret buying a 3DS ;) Reply
iwod - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkWhile A7 at best 1/3 Die Size of A8. It doesn't state the power compare to A8. And i dont understand where the 5x power efficiency coming from. I am guessing it will be able to delivery Double the Performance of A8 while using half the power. ( While that is amazing, it is still only 4x power efficiency!!!! )
It states about powering up and down individual core. What about having A7 constantly running task on phones, such as signal, phone calls, email etc... and only use A9 if there is a need? i.e delegating task to that core only.
The most amazing thing is A15 and A7 would appear to be the same to applications. That is unlike the current Atom and SandyBridge. Where SB support additional instructions and features. This make Atom even further away from getting to A7 level.
We all thought with further tweaking, and 22nm die shrink, Atom would only be one or two steps away from ARM on Mobile Phones. Not anymore with Cortex A7.
And we have PowerVR 6 coming out soon plus their Power VR RTX ( Hardware Ray Trace ).
I wonder when will ARM start to tackle the server market. Reply
french toast - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkToo true, being british im kinda loving the secret surge in british influence on microprocessors/mini gpus, they have really caught the big boys with their pants down!
Just a quick question, to anyone one really ,(hopefully anand/brian) has any one got any news on the arm mali t-604 design?? seeing how powerfull the samsung implementation of the mali 400 was, will be interesting to see how the t-604 stacks up against the other next generation gpus..ie power vr 6 series, adreno 225-3xx series.
As i am really interested in this topic, and i cant find any new info on these designs, has anyone got any info/updates on what new features/api/performance we could expect from the next generation? heard that mali t-604 will be dx11!?
Any response would be much appreciated..... Reply
introiboad - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI believe it's too early in the development stage and no public data is available for the T-604 nor Rogue (VR6 series). This should change in the coming months I assume, since they announced both quite a while back Reply
french toast - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkcheers, hopefully they will spill the beans soon! Reply
ltcommanderdata - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkSo they are envisioning a SoC with dual A15 and dual A7 cores, the A15 pair used for high performance and the A7 pair used for low power. Is there a way to use both the A15 and A7 together if there is thermal room since they are the same ISA? Reply
fic2 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkFrom the aritcle:
ARM did add that SoC vendors are free to expose all cores to the OS if they would like, although would obviously require OS awareness of the different core types. Reply
geniekid - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkYou could also focus on advancing battery technology.
I understand battery tech is much more mature than SoC tech, so revolutionary advancements in this field may be wishful thinking, but it would be cool to see what things are being done in the R&D labs of our smartphone battery producers :) Reply
bjacobson - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkmeh that's a dead end.
Lithium batteries only store 30% or so of what they are capable of storing. Why don't they? Because at full energy density that energy is just asking to get out-- a pin prick into the cell would set it on fahr. Reply
Etsp - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkThere are technologies that are much safer than Li-ion currently in development. While Pros/Cons differ between different battery technologies, developing a better battery is never a dead end.
That said, I'm certain that there are advancements in battery technology all the time, we just read articles about them. Reply
Etsp - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkWe just *don't* read articles about them. Reply
Steel77 - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkBattery technology is by no means "more mature". The techniques developed that are in use today are actually pretty recent advances when you consider that high-output LiFePO4 batteries are a pretty recent invention, and aren't even really on the market yet.
Current batteries are dangerous because they use LiCoO4, which decomposes at high temperature to release lithium metal and oxygen. I think it's obvious why that's a bad setup, but we already have a number of potential solutions fairly far along through the research stage.
Other potential advances have come from some recent potentially game-changing success in 3D batteries, which use materials such as aerogels, foams, etc. to give exceptionally high surface areas, which gives them the potential to have much higher power and energy densities. This system is just more difficult because it requires even coatings of subsequent layers, which requires somewhat complicated, though potentially very efficient, chemical methods.
So battery research is extremely important, and there's a lot of progress being made, though it's suffering right now due to research budget shortfalls, at least in the USA. Reply
secretmanofagent - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkThis is not my area of expertise, but it really seems like Krait would have an advantage over this design. Am I reading into this incorrectly? Reply
kgardas - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkWhile this is nice article I really hate people usually forget Marvell Armada 628 -- heterogenous triple-core and just talk about NVidia Kal-El.
Ptherwise combination of single-core A7 + 4-8 cores of A15 looks like the killer SoC. :-) Reply
fteoath64 - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - link@Kgardas: While the chip looks good on paper, it supports USB3 which is no use in mobile, so it is likely to be used in NAS, MediaPlayer and STB applications. The chip also looks big in size so I guess its power consumption on full bore is significant in ARM terms. Reply
introiboad - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkThe OMAP family also does this with Cortex-A and Cortex-M cores put together in a die. It's quite similar to what ARM describes here, except of course the instruction sets are not the same Reply
lancedal - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkBut is very hard to realize. Today's OS are not application aware. Meaning it would not know if a thread is from application X and need 1GHz vs. another thread from application Y that only require 1MHz. As such, it would not be able to dynamically moving thread from one core to another without guarantee not missing deadline.
If the small core is dedicate to do housekeeping thread only (i.e. sync, standby etc), that is all good but there is no need to do that anyway because such tasks are so infrequency (every hundred ms or so). Therefore, you can wakeup the big core, and shut it down. Reply
hechacker1 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkI don't think it's so hard. The scheduler would start all processes on the slow core, and if the CPU utilization doesn't exceed its maximum over a very short period of time, keep it there because it obviously doesn't need the extra processing power.
The Android schedulers (CFS and BFS) are nano-second time aware, so the latency penalty could be managed.
Of course, it would be best if the programmer could explicitly place their program into a core, but you can already do that with sched_realtime, sched_fifo, and sched_batch policies. The question is really how far Android optimizes for this sort of thing. Right now I think they treat everything as realtime fifo queues, instead of letting the built-in Linux schedulers do their thing. Reply
lancedal - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkKeep in mind that there are performance and latency penalty when power on/off the big core. When you power up the big core, it would take time (to power up, reset and boot). Its L2$ are empty, so it would need to be heated up. All of this added to performance impact that is very hard to take into account by the O.S.
as you said, if programmer can specify performance/deadline/cpu requirement, then everything would be simple. However, we can't expect that from million of developers out there. It's just not practical. Reply
Penti - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkBoot? They would lay there as cores in a low power state, for which there would be several, it won't take tens of seconds to start up. I'm sure they can handle the power states, clocks and scheduling pretty well in the os's. The OS would know when it's in a power saving mode or not or when it needs the performance or not. It would very much depend on power profiles and so on. I would not expect them to be in a deep sleep mode at every time when resources are needed. But it's point is of course battery-life not performance. A flag on programs that want to run on the big cores would probably be easy to implement on a system like Android, I wouldn't think as it's not just pure Linux ELFs. But we will see what kind of schemes there will be soon I guess. Reply
lancedal - Tuesday, October 25, 2011 - linkLeakage is the reason they have "big-small" setup. So if the big core is not used, it will be "shut-down". So it will boot up from ROM when woken up. In 28 and 20nm, leakage will be the dominating power factor. Reply
metafor - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkYou'd be surprised. Most modern OS's (including Android) have not only profiling but API support for applications to poll for resources such as CPU. Most of the time, you won't be seeing something like Pandora take the CPU up to 100% even if it could, in theory, burst process a lot of data and then go to sleep.
The problem is that a lot of things can indeed be done faster -- web browser rendering is one primary example of something that would hog up as much CPU as it can.
And there's not really a way for a user to specify "hey, I don't mind if the page renders slower, stop using so much power". Reply
lancedal - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkTrue, the OSs do profiling, but it is hardly accurate to guarantee real-time performance. Yes, the API would help, but not many application, if any, that specify the resource it needs as that would depend on system. It's just not practical to require software developer to specify the resource needed given how many developers and applications we have today. Big guy like Pandora, sure, but not million of little guys out there.
Deciding when to switch back and forth between the LITTLE and BIG core is hard because it's not free. It cost power and performance (latency). If you switch to often, then you end up costing more power. The problem is there is no fix criteria to switch.
If you have the little core to handle "system tasks" and the big core to handle application (like Tegra-3), then it may work. However, that only help standby power and wont' do much for extend web-browsing time. Reply
sarge78 - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkhttp://www.arm.com/products/processors/cortex-a/co...
The Cortex-A5 processor is the smallest, lowest power ARM multicore processor capable of delivering the Internet to the widest possible range of devices: from ultra low cost handsets, feature phones and smart mobile devices, to pervasive embedded, consumer and industrial devices.The Cortex-A5 processor is fully application compatible with the Cortex-A8, Cortex-A9, and Cortex-A15 processors, enabling immediate access to an established developer and software ecosystem including Android, Adobe Flash, Java Platform Standard Edition (Java SE), JavaFX, Linux, Microsoft Windows Embedded, Symbian and Ubuntu. Cortex-A5 benefits include:
- Full application compatibility with the Cortex-A8, Cortex-A9, and Cortex-A15 processors
- Provides a high-value migration path for the large number of existing ARM926EJ-S™ and ARM1176JZ-S™ processor licensees.
- 1/3 the power and area of Cortex-A9, with full instruction set compatibility.
Why didn't nVidia use a cortex A5 for Kal-El? Reply
ET - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkThe Cortex-A5 was announced in 2009 and hasn't apparently there hasn't been much demand for it (according to one article). At 1.57 DMIPS / MHz (according to the ARM page) it's significantly weaker than the A8, and I figure that was one problem. My guess is that the Cortex-A7 is a response to that, with higher clock rates and performance that should surpass A8 in most cases. Reply
Lucian Armasu - Saturday, October 22, 2011 - linkBut it wasn't supposed to replace Cortex A8, but ARM11, which is still in all low-end Android phones today, and I hate it. Cortex A5 with close to Cortex A8 performance, and 3x more efficient, would've been a really nice replacement for ARM11. Reply
bjacobson - Wednesday, October 19, 2011 - linkwait, so why is the A7 better if 7 is a smaller number than 8? O.o Reply
Manabu - Sunday, October 23, 2011 - linkBecause 8 is an even number, and ARM was cursed so that every even numbered architeture they make is bad. You don't hear about ARM6, ARM8 or ARM10, but ARM7, ARM9 and ARM11 are still very much alive everywhere (low end, Tegra2, etc). The cortex A8 was a bit more sucessfull because the new instruction-set and raw power, but still was a bad desing. We probably won't be hearing about any new SoC using it in the future.
Cortex A9, A5, A15 and now A7. ARM is on a roll now, as they stopped being stubborn and are side-stepping the even numbers. ;-)
The Cortex A8 is bigger and theorically faster clock for clock than the Cortex A7, even if in practice it will likely be slower because it laugably slow FPU, lower efficiency and core counts. And as it isn't faster than A9, 7 is the logical number to use. Reply
iwod - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkAnand, could you do an article on xx bit CPU. With 64 Bit x86 CPU we get two major benefits, memory addressing space, and extra register for faster performance. But other then that, how many program actually uses 64bit Integer and Floating Point?
ARM A7 / A15 seems to provide 40bit address, 1TB of Memory or 250 times more then current 4GB limit. I remember Intel also had 40bit memory addressing but require Software, OS, BIOS working together and it doesn't work very well on software development. Is this still the case with ARM? Reply
mihaimm - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI can't wait to boot Ubuntu on those. With little tweaks we'll be able to have nice threads go to A7 and others to A15 automatically. Quad cores at 1-1.5 GHz should be enough for for mostly anything on Linux. And if we get it packaged with 543MP2 (and good drivers) this would kill x86. Reply
introiboad - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkEven better than 543MP2, if it runs Ubuntu and by the time this comes to market, we'll have Rogue. Reply
french toast - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkhey i posted i comment earlier, replying to someone else, asking a question or two, nothing impolite or anythng like that, and when i have looked back to see if i got an answer my comment has been removed!?? why?? Reply
Snowstorms - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkthese guys are so close to competing for desktop x86 space, they are already down to 28nm and are using the exact same ASML as Intel and AMD Reply
Pessimism - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkDoes anyone else find their naming conventions infuriating?
plus they label their instruction sets with an A and a similar but different number... and the other licensees of ARM have their own gimpy naming conventions with one for the base core and one for the chip and so on and so forth... Reply
iwod - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - link11 is ARM 11 which is different to Cortex Series
If we inflate number based on timing they A7 would have been named A16.
A8 is replaced by A9 and will be subsequently by A15.
A7 is more like an replacement for the ultra low power A5. It just happen to be even more powerful then A8 therefore they used A8 as comparison. Reply
mczak - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI don't think A15 is really a replacement of A9.
Each member of the Cortex-A family seems to have its place, except the A8 (which is the oldest and obsolete).
A5: very small, low power - though once you include larger L1 caches and NEON it seems A7 would be a better fit as it's hardly smaller anymore.
A7: small, low power, probably highest perf/power and perf/area of the whole family. Unlike A5 l1 cache sizes are fixed and NEON always included, and with all features of the A15 (including virtualization for instance).
A8: a dud, unlike all others not MP capable and with nonpipelined FPU. Worst efficiency of the family (by a large margin) in perf/area and perf/power. I don't think there's any reason at all why you'd want to use this in a new design. In some areas it might be faster than A7 (I think NEON might be twice as fast).
A9: similar size to A8 but quite a bit more advanced (out-of-order) and with higher efficiency.
A15: quite a beast compared to A9, much more complex and faster, but much bigger - the first to target low-power servers too. Efficiency might be similar to A9, not sure.
Of course, this completely ignores the timeframe - A8 was the only option for quite some time, and apart from that only A9 has made it to devices yet (I think we should see A5 soon enough - MSM7227A has Cortex-A5 and possibly quite a few low-end smartphones might use it). Reply
ET - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI do see the A15 as a replacement for the A9. The high end was A9 and will be A15. The mid range was A8 and will be A7. Both will offer significant performance increases. A9 will survive a little longer (as will the A8, probably), but I don't think it has a real place between the A15 and A7.
As for the names, ARM Cortex family names reflects core complexity or size, far as I understand, not how new the core is. Reply
C300fans - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkIntel has his ACE, atom E6xx, which has already been proved to be much more power efficient than ARM. For example, Sony PRS T1 is using intel 1Ghz processor(Atom E640) in his e-book reader runing on Andorid. Reply
mczak - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkGood point though there should be really a rather large difference in performance (and in chip size) between a A7 and a A15, hence I think there's still some room for A9 (which should still be a fair bit faster than A7 after all) - say for a low-end smartphone in 2013. I guess though this will rather depend on the licensing cost differences (afaik the less complex designs are cheaper) between A7/A9/A15. Reply
iwod - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkI dont think the replacement are intentional. it is the market overlaping when one product's power and effcieny leap forward.
It is like a Pentium SandyBridge was never meant to replace the good old Core 2 Duo, but it is just SandyBridge being so much better and cheaper to happens to replaced it. Reply
nofumble62 - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkis that ARM cannot boost core performance without sucking up more power. The power versus performance chart shows a straight line. So they have to employ this trick to maintain power efficiency, while getting enough horse power for difficult tasks.
Believe Intel has done this sort of thing already. What else is new?
What's next for ARM? double the core count? Reply
iwod - Thursday, October 20, 2011 - linkNo one can boost performance without sucking more power. But ARM still have many more things to do with IPC. And as a matter of fact, a Quad Core Cortex A15 @ 2.5Ghz is very capable, and faster then a Core 2 Duo. Reply
leonzio666 - Friday, October 21, 2011 - link"No one can boost performance without sucking more power."
I beg your pardon ? I hope what you mean is that that`s impossible over one architecture type and/or manufacturing process ? Because if not, you`re talking nonsense - how about Intel SB compared to Nehalem or Ivy Bridge which is said to provide both up to 15-20% boost over SB while still lowering TDP for some cpu`s (e.g. 77 W desktop quadcore) ? Reply
C300fans - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkBetter performance requires more power. Pentium M, Core2, SB, they are all labeled 35W TDP on laptop although SB has the latest 32nm technology. Reply
french toast - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkMore performance only requires more power on the same manufacturing process and same bandwith/cache etc.
Penryn increased performance whilst lowering tdp over previous core 2 quad, with virtually same architechture.- mainly superior 32nm HMGK process. Reply
french toast - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkDidnt nvidia do some type of demo with tegra 3 where it beat a core 2 duo?? seemed a bit suspicious to me but if that is true then a quad cortex-a15 might match up against a low level core 2 quad!
What are you thoughts on krait?? Reply
blueboy11 - Friday, October 21, 2011 - linkWe really need to find a way to keep a display from draining the battery. If they can use these processors so that you can keep the brightness but have as little of an impact on display draining the battery, we might have something here to jump on. In mean the phones today use about 3/4 of the battery life on just the display alone (and I'm not talking even talking about the LTE band for you people on Verizon), so this would be really nice feature. I hear they're already trying some battery-saving features in Ice Cream Sandwich (4.0). Any takes on this? Reply
hyvonen - Saturday, October 22, 2011 - linkWould you please do a quick comparison of modern x86 vs. ARM solutions in terms of performance and power effiiency. The arguments keep going back/forth, and some reliable numbers would be very useful. Thanx! Reply


text:
Weleda Birch Body Scrub
Said to be amazing for cellulite reduction (which I'm not admitting to having!), I just love this scrub because it comes in a nice big tube, I don't have to bust up my new manicure trying to scrape a hardened mass out of a tub, the plant oils and plant wax beads make it gentle on skin and there are no suspect ingredients. In fact, Weleda have been making biodynamic & organic skincare since the 1930's and let me tell you, they have it down!

subset: commoncrawl


text:
About Us
Since 2004, our promise has been to create the freshest and highest quality beans available through traditional hand roasting in small batches, right here in Tacoma. We pride ourselves on being a small business that caters to fellow members of the local community.
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Cupping Notes:
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Welcome to the new website!
Oct 12, 2013
We'd like to take this opportunity to officially welcome you to the new ValhallaCoffee.com! Aside from overhauling the look of the site, we've also added a few new features. For starters, you can read a little bit about the different coffees that we offer here by scrolling over them on our new, interactive menu on the "Our Coffee" page, which also has information for anyone interested in carrying Valhalla Coffee in their establishment. If you've ever wondered how we got started, you can read all about it in the "About Us" page. You can also find links to some press articles that have been written about us, as well as a few videos.
Our "News" section is our blog, where we'll be able to fill you in on any new happenings, thoughts about coffee, roasting techniques, or other coffee-related or local news.
At the bottom of every page is also a list of places where you can find our coffee more conveniently if our 6th Ave. shop is too much of a haul for your morning cup. Scroll through and find the one nearest to you.
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Ara (Acrylics Rietveld Academy) is an acrylic developed at the Rietveld Academy in Amsterdam. The high pigmentation delivers pure colours posessing extraordinary tinting strength. These colours are made of 100% acrylic emulsion combined with lightfast pigments, formulated to give a smooth brushable colour with intensity and brilliance. The strong adhesion of an acrylic binder makes these colours suitable for many applications and surfaces.
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A very good quality range of mid-priced acrylic, ideal for serious artists needing to cover large canvases.
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There are three universal truths, according to Santa Fe florists: Women love flowers, for the most part; men buy flowers for women, for the most part; flowers from florists are way better than flowers from supermarkets, always.
"Women, when they see flowers, it makes their fallopian tubes vibrate," Fred Palmer, owner of Artichokes & Pomegranates, says, relating a story from fellow florist Jessie Baca, who in turn heard this revelation from a "hippie" friend. The pair concedes that, at the very least, an endorphin rush from the scent of flowers is responsible for women's attraction to them.
Across town at Rodeo Plaza Flowers & Gifts, owner Nora Ramsey calls flowers the "ultimate" gift. "If you bring me a jacket for Valentine's Day, I'll say, 'Forget it, I want roses,' 'cause that's what girls want."
I understand Ramsey's respect for roses as a Valentine's Day tradition, although as I shiver near the walk-in door under the frigid stare of dough-eyed teddy bears, a coat doesn't seem too bad an idea. More inclined to think of flowers as a would-be casualty of second-wave feminism or as products marketed ad nauseam as something all women want—eg diamonds, chocolate—this sort of pageantry makes me nervous. I'd once regifted to a similarly initialed aunt a diamond-accented "R" necklace—a clear signifier that I was misunderstood and that my relationship with the original gifter would never work.
Apparently, I'm in the minority. According to Canyon Road Flowers Floral Designer Campion Dechant, "Women like to feel like their significant other is running through the paces, is right there for them, appreciating them. They also really like the bragging rights at work, being able to carry a big dozen or dozen and a half roses out of the office."
My fears aside, this year is expected to be a bit of a bust. Those gentlemen out there who want to cater to their girlfriends' need for envy might not get the chance, considering the Holiday of Extravagance lands on an out-of-office day and, according to Ramsey, "When Valentine's Day lands on a weekend, on Saturday, sales are 25 percent less" than when it lands on the optimal Wednesday.
Add to that the current state of the economy and it would seem that Valentine's flowers would be best left planted firmly in the ground this year, as most of the florists I visited are prepared for a slumpy season.
"Flowers are mental. It's not physical where you need vitamins, you need food, you have to pay your gas. You don't need anything here but you want it," Jon Gurrola, owner of Canyon Road Flowers, points out while also pointing to graceful white orchids as a way to spice up (without driving up the expense on) a bouquet of roses.
To contest the high price of roses and the high cost of economic downturn, the florists are offering small bouquets—a mix of roses and other flowers and accoutrements set in vases—for under $50.
Less expensive, however, does not mean less interesting.
Palmer festoons flowers with offbeat items: unripe blackberries, stark snarls of curly willow. "People may not want to spend as much money, so we're trying to accommodate that and still give them something nice that lasts for a while," he says.
And last they do: upward of two weeks and way longer, according to the florists, than if bought on the cheap at a grocery store. "Flowers that come from Trader Joe's or Whole Foods, they just don't last as long," Palmer says. Regardless, flowers do last longer (and, in Santa Fe, are cheaper) than a fancy meal. They can be more personal too.
Gurrola believes the personalization licensed to floral arrangements shows that the gifters "spent time and ordered as opposed to [buying a gift] off the rack." And the artistry involved in preparing floral arrangements is inarguable.
Carol Rose, owner of Amanda's Flowers, liked the shop's name so much she retained it after the previous owner, Amanda, moved to California. With that same sort of willfulness, Rose, a visual artist who tellingly coined her business' logo "Santa Fe's Living Art," became a florist with no formal training.
"It is an art. Not everyone can arrange flowers," Rose says, fingering an arrangement aggrandized by alstroemeria, tree fern and a giddy loop of lily grass. "It takes a design sense."
So if flowers are art, do they really need a defense? I mean, the tendrils and twigs and gossamer petals, do they deserve my misgivings? Probably not. So I was sold, sort of.
But for the diehard practical among us, there's always Edible Arrangements, which opened this November. The axiom is every girl's heart is through her stomach, right? So goes it with me. Valentine's bundles of chocolate-covered strawberries on skewers (Sweetheart Bouquet, $34-$74) are not exactly shish kebabs (not until I run the idea by owners Stacy and Warren Fulgenzi, at least), but arranged sensually in love-themed vases, they are an appetizing and attractive little treat.
Economy and ego be damned, go out and get your loved one something pretty, if not permanent, this year.
Santa Fe blooms with florists. For this story, we talked to the following floral (and other) artists:
Amanda's Flowers 1606 St. Michael's Drive, 505-473-9212
Artichokes & Pomegranates 418 Cerrillos Road, Design Center, 505-820-0044
Canyon Road Flowers 423 Canyon Road, 505-983-9785
Edible Arrangements 825 Cerrillos Road, 505-989-9770
Rodeo Plaza Flowers & Gifts 2801 Rodeo Road, Ste. A-2, 505-471-3200


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A podcast of public-domain audio books for kids, read by Kara Shallenberg. New chapters will appear on Mondays. We've finished The Road to Oz, A Little Princess, The Secret Garden, Heidi, Our Island Story, an anthology of poetry for children, a children's history of the Middle Ages, More William, This Country of Ours Part 1, Helen's Babies, and The Book of Art for Young People, and When Mother Lets Us Cook. Next we had The Adventures of Sally, by P. G. Wodehouse and then The Story of Mankind -- an excellent history book for kids, read as a duet with my friend Michelle Crandall, and then one of my all-time favorite books in the whole wide world: The Swiss Family Robinson. Then we had Part 2 of "This Country of Ours", Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Part 3 of "This Country of Ours", and then "Through the Looking-Glass". Oh, and then the rest of Part 3 of This Country of Ours... which I somehow forgot to post earlier :) Next is Grammar-Land, which I just LOVED recording! Enjoy! Send questions and comments to firstname.lastname@example.com. All of my recorded books can be found at http://kayray.org/my-recordings/
January 16th, 2012
Episode 423 of 550 episodes
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Welcome to the Brain Training Podcast, the daily audio workout for your head. In this podcast we have two games for you, each with three rounds which get progressively harder. To enjoy the full experience, relax, and avoid distractions whilst you listen.


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A contemporary design semi flush fit box ceiling light in a polished chrome finish, suitable for use in any modern setting and ideal for lighting in a kitchen.Linea Verdace
A contemporary design semi flush fit box ceiling light in a polished chrome finish, suitable for use in any modern setting and ideal for lighting in a kitchen.
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TNB: Unsolved Mystery - The Ten Sleep Shooting
"Sup douchebag?"
A young but hackle-faced white guy wearing a sweat stained ball-cap glared at me from the cab of a white pick-up truck.
The words spun in my head and before I had a moment to respond, the truck rolled down the gravel road, leaving me in a plume of dust and confusion.
"Did he just call you a douchebag?" my friend, Julie, asked.
"Uh, yeah. I guess he did," I responded in a daze, thinking: Where the hell am I?
This happened within five minutes of my arrival on August 17, to Ten Sleep Canyon, Wyoming. Standing in a vacant campsite outside my vehicle on the "Old Road," surrounded by other climbers finishing breakfast and gearing up for a splitter day on the pocketed limestone cliff band, I wondered if I had done something wrong.
"Some people are just assholes," Julie said, urging me to drop the issue.
I tried to let the strange event evaporate, but it stuck around, kind of like the sweat on a nervous man's upper lip.
For the next 10 days, we climbed, camped and fished in Ten Sleep Canyon. We thrashed our fingers on the spiny limestone by day, ate speckled brown trout for dinner and enjoyed a great cragging venue. But the feeling that I was unwelcome—engendered by that one jackass—never left.
Fast forward one month to September 17. An e-mail from Tom Linder popped up in my inbox:
"As I know it (based on what the Sheriff told me)," wrote Tom, "sometime around 2:00 a.m., the morning of the 16th, two climbers from Ecuador, Ana and Jose, were sleeping in their tent. They supposedly heard a noise "like a branch break" and went outside to investigate. [Jose] was shot in the stomach by a small caliber weapon."
I immediately checked other climbing news sources and forums, and the horrific story was already sending shockwaves through the climbing community. We posted the information Tom had shared on rockandice.com and dug for more. Was Jose going to make it? Who had done this? Why? These were the questions everyone seemed to be asking.
Two days later I received a voicemail and e-mail from Ana Deaconu. She wanted to share her story and set the record straight. So with a bit of phone-tag, we eventually connected last week and she told Rock and Ice what happened in the early morning hours of September 16. This is her story.
Ana, 25 years old, and Jose, 33, were visiting the U.S. from their current home in Ecuador. They were to be climbing in the States for two months. Already they'd pilgrimaged to the granite of Yosemite and City of Rocks. Next they visited the dolomite of Wild Iris, Wyoming and traveled further north to the limestone canyon of Ten Sleep.
"Our next stop was Devil's Tower, but we never made it there," said Ana in perfect English. I later learned that although she is Romanian, she holds dual citizenship with the U.S., and has a Masters degree in Earth Sciences from Stanford.
"Ten Sleep was actually our favorite place so far," she said. "We were feeling good there."
Jose and Ana were camping on the Old Road, which parallels Highway 16. After a day climbing at the Mondo Beyondo, they were psyched.
"We had a great day sending some 5.12s, which is good for us," she said. After dinner, they went to sleep in their tent set up by the nearby Ten Sleep Creek. At around 2 a.m., however, they were jolted awake by something striking the outside of their tent.
"Jose said, 'Don't move!' It seemed like he had a premonition that something was not right," Ana explained. "But I told him, 'I want to know what this is,' so I opened the door and poked my head out."
Ana found a "sizeable" tree branch lying beside the tent. They tried to convince themselves that the branch had just fallen out the tree. "It still felt paranormal," she said. After a few more minutes, another large object struck the tent, momentarily collapsing the sidewall.
"I screamed, but Jose said, 'Don't scream like that! You're scaring me.'"
The two decided to seek shelter in their car, and they exited the tent. While moving towards the car, Ana told me she heard a gunshot.
"It was a quiet shot," she said. "It sounded like it could have been silenced."
Jose had fallen and was getting up. Ana said she noticed movement in the bushes, "No more than 30 feet away moving towards the road." Then she said she saw a car drive off. "But I never saw a human."
Realizing she had left the car keys in the tent, she went to grab them and that's when she says she noticed what had landed on the tent that second time.
"By the tent I saw a large rock, something bigger than a grapefruit but smaller than a cantaloupe."
After finding the car keys, Ana ran back to Jose and discovered that he had been shot in the chest but was fully conscious. He was saying, "What's happening, something's hit me."
As she drove Jose toward the tiny town of Ten Sleep roughly six miles away, Ana realized she had left her cell phone in the tent, so their plan was to phone 911 from the Ten Sleep Saloon. Ana said that during the drive Jose never lost consciousness, hardly bled at all, and whenever he was quiet for a while she would ask him questions to make sure he could still talk.
The Saloon was empty when Ana and Jose pulled into town, so they continued driving toward the next slightly larger town of Worland 26 miles further down Highway 16. Jose was quickly admitted. His lung had begun to collapse and had filled with blood, which "came out like a red fountain when the doctors began to drain him," Ana said. "It was unnervingly similar to a Quentin Tarantino movie." Medical examiners determined that Jose had been shot in the chest near his heart by a .22 caliber gun.
Jose was airlifted to a hospital in Billings, Montana. Over the next few days, his condition stabilized but his medical bills soared to upwards of $50,000. Ana explained to me that in Ecuador, health insurance is provided free of charge, however, while visiting the States, he was uncovered.
Later in the conversation, I asked Ana if they were robbed during the shooting. "When the police went back to the scene, nothing was missing," she said. I asked if they had any verbal altercations in the area and she said, "We hardly talked to anybody. I mean Jose doesn't even speak English!"
The only plausible motive for the shooting that Ana suggested came from her mother's own research. "My mom has been reading forums, and there seems to be some tension between climbers and the community."
Was this "tension" perhaps the same underlying reason for my own startling introduction to the canyon? Could there be animosity harbored by the local Wyoming community toward the visiting climbers? I posed the question to Alli Rainey—a pro climber who lives near Ten Sleep and has spent summers developing a slew of climbing in the canyon since 2001. She offered her own insight to what she believes to be an "inexplicably weird and unsettling" incident.
"The only actual disputes here that I've heard about or have witnessed myself have happened either between motorcyclists and climbers, or between climbers and other climbers," Rainey wrote in an e-mail. "Never between non-climbing locals and visiting climbers that I've personally heard of or experienced."
Rainey also made the point that climbers have been visiting Ten Sleep for more than a decade. "And hunters, ATVers, motorcyclists and snow-sports enthusiasts, among other user groups, have a much longer history of moving through this town and having an impact during certain times of the year," Rainey explains. "In other words, this is not a place that is as isolated from outside traffic as it may first appear; local people were providing seasonal services for 'outsiders' long before the national/global climbing community took notice of Ten Sleep Canyon climbing."
As for a plausible explanation, Rainey had no idea. "There's absolutely no feasible reason I can possibly think of," she wrote. "It makes no sense."
Rainey did state that the nature of the incident was scary and expressed that "unpredictable, unprovoked but seemingly premeditated violence is always more frightening than violence that is foreseeable or that results from a heated altercation."
Despite the incident, Rainey mentioned that climbers have not vacated the area or even stopped camping in the same vicinity as the incident.
When I called the Washakie County Sheriff's department and asked if it was still okay to camp in the area, Sandy, the receptionist told me "camping there is always at your own risk." Rich Fernandez, a county police officer explained that this is the only incident involving climbers in the last year and that he doubted the perpetrator even knew the victims were rock climbers. As of now no bullet casings have been found at the crime scene, though searched with a metal detector, and there are currently no suspects in the case.
Fernandez did mention to Rainey during a recent visit to the Sheriff's office that an "accidental shooting—someone firing into the dark night with no intended target" wasn't being ruled out.
When I asked Tom Linder if he had any intentions of leaving Ten Sleep Canyon because of the incident, he laconically replied, "We're here until Elke [Tom's wife] gets her [project] or if it gets too cold."
Digging into online forums with the intention of finding past incidents of violence or unrest between climbers and the local community of Ten Sleep proved futile. In fact, the more I prowled, the more evidence I found for the contrary. For example, the website bighornmountaincountry.com—a virtual tourist information center for the mountains that house Ten Sleep Canyon—clearly promotes rock climbing in the canyon on the front page.
The Ten Sleep Canyon shooting might never be solved. For now, very little evidence exists. But the fact remains: on September 16, Jose Mosquera—a climbing guide from Ecuador—was nearly killed when a bullet punctured his chest and lung just below his heart. His two-month climbing trip to the U.S. came to a shocking halt, and now he is 50,000 dollars in the hole. Wyoming's victim services will only contribute up to $15,000 in medical-expense reimbursement to victims of violent crimes. Ana Deaconou, Jose's girlfriend, has started a fund. You can contribute at joserecoveryfund.org.


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we're using here! Don't ask me how much paint, just a few blobs.
NOTE: Don't try to add paint to a brand-new, super full bottle of glue!
but if you can't do that, just set them aside in a flat place indoors
(out of the way) and they'll dry in about a day.
"C"s Ocean with a Pink and Blue Fish.
I'll be posting fun Elmer's crafts for 2 weeks!
This giveaway is now closed.


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Urban Organics transforms old Hamm's building
ST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) — A vacant building at the old Hamm's Brewery in St. Paul is being transformed to house an indoor urban garden and 15,000 fish.
Urban Organics has been working on the building for more than a year. Urban Organics' Fred Haberman says eventually you'll see massive racks of leafy greens fertilized naturally by tilapia that will be held in 3,500-gallon tanks.
The business plans to supply local markets and schools beginning this fall.
WCCO-TV says the City of St. Paul and Pentair Aquatic Eco-Systems are involved in the project.
Copyright 2013 The Associated Press.