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Windows Vista Performance Guideby Ryan Smith on 2/1/2007 12:01 AM EST
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nishzone - Saturday, May 24, 2008 - linkHi,
I'm glad tnat your memory usage is similar to mine and therefore I might finally understand this. You have 2 gig of Ram...I understand that superfetch is the reason free ram is 0 (cache increases as free memory decreases). But why is the memory usage 45%? so around 1 gig?
I also have 50% usage on startup. Is vista using 1 gig memory? There is something I don't understand here because you recommended 1 gig for general users.
Nishzone Reply
Dataland - Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - linkI think Microsoft needs a performance reset. As I've said in some previous posts, I think software in general, and Microsoft software in particular, is getting slower at faster rate than hardware is getting faster. And this problem acutely affects Vista. I think Microsoft needs... (Pingback)
Performance Reset
Kondado - Saturday, February 10, 2007 - linkI've done my own tests. I sent the same amount of data (51 files, 2,5 GB) once from XP to Samba, then from Vista to Samba (OpenBSD). Then I did the same from XP to XP, and from Vista to XP. XP was always a LOT faster.
I would really know if it's the drivers or the stack... Reply
jonp - Monday, February 05, 2007 - linkIt seems like the budget system area was a little overlooked in this review of Vista. So I have some questions:
"Memory in Vista..." - It appears that acceptable multitasking performance is found somewhere in the 3GB to 4GB memory size area. Many budget systems have only two memory slots and many new ones support dual memory access. This will force budget systems to 4GB which is fairly pricey now and probably will be for some time.
"CPU Performance..." - Your love for anything Core2 Duo shines here. But what about the dual core Pentium Ds? Like the D915 2.8GHz processor. Yes it is Netburst, but also easier on the budget than a Core 2 Duo processor. We need something more specific here in terms of benchmarks/guidelines.
Video adapters - I didn't see anything that talked about integrated video adapters vs. VGA/PCIe video adapters. Are any of the integrated graphic engines, like Intel 950GMA provide acceptable performance for VISTA? How about older video cards? Minimum graphics memory? Graphics engine speed? Again we need more specific guidance here.
Hard drive - You addressed hard drive performance, in a way, in the "Vista Search for Fast Drives Only" section. But again no specific device selection guidelines like: RPM, cache size, average access, size, data transfer rate, ...
Virtualization - It appears that MS forbids the use of virtualization products with Vista Home Basic and Home Premium editions forcing budget users to more costly editions of Vista.
Upgrade or "clean" install? - Not strictly a budget system issue; the web if full of warnings about NOT trying to upgrade to Vista --- that it should only be a "clean" install situation. That upgrading is fraught with too many pitfalls that it isn't even worth trying. And not all editions of Vista are allowed to do in-place upgrades of the XP editions; oh, and you can't do an in-place upgrade of anything prior to XP. See http://tinyurl.com/36ljxv">http://tinyurl.com/36ljxv for some upgrade details.
JarredWalton - Monday, February 05, 2007 - link
Even with a lengthy preview article, there is still a lot of ground to cover when taking a close look at the final release version of Windows Vista. We have attempted to create a comprehensive look at the new operating system, but even then there are still plenty of items that will have to wait for another day before we can truly evaluate them.
Basically, a lot of that falls into areas we are going to look at in future articles. Given that we don't really recommend most people upgrade to Vista yet, the lower-end your system is the less we would consider Vista. Pretty much all of the DX9 NVIDIA and AMD cards do fine with the Vista Aero Glass UI, but IGP solutions are slower. Individual tolerance for the UI will vary; I'm sure plenty will be okay with GMA950 and Glass, while others won't want anything less than a $100 discrete GPU. Oh, and GPU drivers for Vista are still flaky, IMO. :)
HDD, anything 7200 RPM should be fine. CPU, really with a decent GPU the requirements aren't all that much higher than XP. RAM is more important - don't even think about Vista with less than 1GB - but HDD and CPU most people with anything made in the past two years will be fine. Just my opinion there - individual usage and preferences will again play a role.
I wouldn't say 3-4GB of RAM is even remotely necessary for most people. A few will like it, but 2GB is still sufficient for about 99% of people.
Virtualization and Upgrades... I'll have to defer to others there. Again, I recommend discretion, so I would tend towards doing a full backup (Ghost or similar) of any system before doing a Vista upgrade. I believe Gary is about to revert his system for the time being, as Vista has just had a few too many glitches. The number of people that worry about virtualization - really intending to use it, not just for test purposes - is again very small. I think mostly we're seeing the vocal minority complaining. Still, I find it odd that MS even worries about whether or not people run the OS via virtualization - unless the glitches are aggravated by such an environment, which is entirely possible. Reply
jonp - Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - linkThanks Jarred...you insights are always very helpful and I am glad that these topics will get more focus in the future. Jon Reply
jonp - Monday, February 05, 2007 - linkBoth of the charts in the Compound TCP section for Windows Vista say "Compact" and not "Compound". Reply
duploxxx - Sunday, February 04, 2007 - linkIts probably me that's missing a page or so but could you guys explain what system you used for these tests? Reply
funk3y - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkHello
I also spent some time testing the network part of windows vista, and I discovered some quite interesting things:
Windows Vista is reducing the network I/O when an application using the audio interface is launched, I discovered this when copying large files over my network.
When I copy large file through the network the average speed is 40 mb/sec and the taskmanager whow 30-50% of network use, as soon as I start an application playing sound (WMP, Skype, Warcraft III, ....) the rate drop to 8 mb/sec and the network use in the taskmanager never go beyond 12.5%
I achieved those test on different hardware, with differents drivers and the results are always the same; it is just impossible to get further then 12.5% of network use while playing a sound.
My guesses are that microsoft voluntary did this, in order to avoid sound crackling. Because of the new driver scheme, bad written drivers having to do many I/O could lead to sound degradation (I had this issue while using my raptors RAID on a NF4 board; making a lot of I/O on the disk just killed the sound quality).
As you where streaming a film while benchmarking, you may have been in this situation. It could be nice if you could rerun some benchmark taking into account all what I have written.
As I am already posting, here are some other consideration about DOS and vista:
-It is just impossible to launch a DOS application in fullscreen mode! This functionnality lack can be really painfull in environnement where DOS application are still well used; I just don't understand microsoft's choice
-I don't think that vista x64 is still able to launch 16 bit apps anymore (keep this in mind before upgrading to x64!) Reply
ministerchief - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkI have a "Corsair Flash Voyager 4Gb" usb stick and I can't use it to "BOOST" my system.
So, how anandtech could use it ?
Can someone tell me how to use this flash drive with the "READY BOOST" feature.
THX Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkThat's up to Vista, it benchmarks a flash drive to make sure it's fast enough to be effectively used as a ReadyBoost cache. If ReadyBoost won't engage, then your drive isn't passing one(or more) of their tests. Reply
mlambert890 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkHow is the PC hemmhoraging marketshare to the Mac? You've got to be kidding. Their marketshare in 06 rose from a pathetic 4.4 to a somewhat less pathetic 4.8. Thats with ALL of their ridiculous hype, ALL of the asskissing from the press (including you guys now I guess?) and ALL of the armies of lunatic "Mac priests" that pollute every forum.
Its hillarious that you would position this tiny growth in a share that declined steadily for 22 years until it hit rock bottom at like 3% in 2003 as a "hemmhorage". I have to wonder why you would characterize it that way. To be honest, it reeks of bias. Reply
quanta - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkThink about it, ReadyBoost is treated by Vista as random access memory, to store temoprary contents than can change very often. Considering typical USB flash drive only has 100k write cycle, you will need to replace it very soon. Worse yet, when the flash drive is gone, so will your critical data at the worst possible time. With the hardware requirement of Vista, no amount of wear levelling is going to help. Reply
Ryan Smith - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkNo, this is wrong.
ReadyBoost is a write-through data cache handled by the SuperFetch system; when enabled SuperFetch uses it as another cache location optimized for small files. Based on the information we've seen, it's used primarily to store DLLs and other static and semi-static data that is needed an intermediate amount of time(not important enough to spend valuable RAM, important enough to cache), with highly dynamic data sent to SuperFetch or the hard disk to avoid unnecessary wear out. It will most certainly put wear on flash memory, but it seems unlikely that it will put 51TB of write-wear(the amount of data that needs to be written on a 512MB flash card to write over all bits 100k times) before several years out.
Of course, this is as according to Microsoft. We don't really know what exactly is being stored on a ReadyBoost drive at any given moment, however we have no reason to believe that Microsoft isn't really taking efforts to minimize writes. We'll find out if/when flash memory starts wearing out. Reply
mlambert890 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkWe'll see. Please remember that the 100k write cycle is an average, that the flash is used as a small cache only, and that write leveling of COURSE will help before making assumptions.
Ive been beating up flash for YEARS thats still going. There are moves to literally put OS's on flash based hard drives. Hybrid drives already use the same concept as ReadyBoost (and are also supported on Vista).
Using flash as a cache for magnetic media is not some untested concept that is going to lead to global data destruction.
MS must have really destroyed their mindshare that so many armchair scientists are just fully willing to believe that theyve figured out ALL the stuff that the "idiots" in Redmond dont realize. Give a little credit to the armies of PhDs that work on at least the basic concept for this crap. Maybe implementation gets flawed by the realities of release cycles and budgets, but BASIC CONCEPT is typically sound. Reply
dugbug - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkUAC is like a firewall -- chatty at first (during installs and configurations), but once you have set up your system you will hardly ever hear from it. This should be obvious to the authors.
And for that matter, the 6-operation file delete they discuss in the beginning was for deleting a file on a shared desktop (meaning a delete was for all users). This is commonplace for enterprise and workplace users, it should be no surprise that a file used by others would require permissions to delete. Though Im glad the number of operations was greatly reduced.
As to the comments about vista being sluggish? Perhaps it is RAM? I have 2Gb and vista runs without any slowdown at all. Once you use it for a while you won't go back to XP.
-d Reply
LoneWolf15 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkUntrue. Enthusiasts use lots of things like the Control Panel, MMC console, etc. and these all require UAC every time. Currently, I also have startup programs on my beta-test box that UAC blocks. This would be fine, if UAC had a feature saying "Yes, I know what this program is, let it run every time all the time" and be done. But, UAC doesn't have this option, so a user has to allow the program to run every single freaking time they boot their machine.
I've tried changing the program properties so that it runs as Administrator; that hasn't solved the problem. I turned off UAC, which gives me a lovely annoying red-X shield in the system tray that every so often decides to warn me with a popup balloon that UAC is turned off and I could be in danger, so it's annoying even when turned off, and there's no easy way around it. Enthusiasts do a lot with their computers, and what they do is likely to increase their number of UAC prompts. Bottom line: Unlike OS X's methods, Vista's UAC happens far more often, and is far more annoying. And because it doesn't require a password (like OS X) and is just a click-through, I'll put money down that within a year, it will be worthless, as the average user will learn to click through it without reading a single bit of info. Reply
funk3y - Sunday, February 04, 2007 - linkThe red cross can also be disabled for sure; on my computer, which is a member of a domain I recieve no error message at all, even if UAC & co are disabled. Reply
haplo602 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkRealy. What's the hype all about ?
SuperFetch - trivial change to caching mechanisms. Anybody that would require it would have already implemented it in *NIX systems. This is a purely desktop user feature to hid some processing overhead. There's nothing new about this that would prevent implementation in w2k already except MS incompetence ...
ReadyBoost - So the new standard is to have a permanently attached USB stick to have some performance ?
Compund TCP, Receive window auto tuning - I laughed like mad. So they finaly made a proper implementation of something network related? End even then Vista is SLOWER. I'd suggest take a stand-alone NIC that Vista nad XP have drivers for themselves and test it. Should rule out driver bugs.
I/O improvements - so I make an app that makes a high priority high capacity I/O operation (say 1GB) and you can go for lunch till the system is anyway usable. Seriously. I/O in small chunks makes perfect sense in multitasking environments since you have more entry point and can adjust the stream on OS level and tune performance. That XP or Vista are stupid enough to do this is their fault. I guess MS will hype this as the next best thing in a future OS ?
All in All every feature hyped in the article does not deserve a Marketing Name(tm) because it is a normal concept. So we have a shiny new bigger and slower OS that is hiding this behind hyped features. F.E. memory compression could very much improve system performance without relying on external devices (ReadyBoost). Reply
mlambert890 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkJust admit your bias man. There is NOTHING MS could do that would cause you to give them kudos. I spend my days arguing with guys like you for a living (unfortunately) and its just exhausting.
I could point you to REAMS of documentation of all the crap that has been rewritten and overhauled in Vista, but whats the point? You want to hate it so hate it.
Its sad that technology debates are STILL religion for so many after all this time :( Reply
haplo602 - Monday, February 05, 2007 - linkYes I am biased. I am fed up with MS. All the delay was for what purpose ?
Yes please, point me to the documentation, I'd be glad to learn something. Reply
vailr - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkA quick look on Newegg shows the least expensive DX 10 cards (all NVIDIA 8800 based) are priced around $400. When can we expect to see DX 10 cards costing: <$200? Reply
Brazos - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkI believe that Nvidia is releasing a broader range of directx 10 gpu's in March. They're supposed to be for the low - mid range video cards. Reply
PrinceGaz - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link
BitLocker is the only feature that the Ultimate edition has that no other edition has, but given it requires a Trusted Platform Module to be used...
Vista Enterprise/VLK also includes BitLocker, it is not a feature unique to Ultimate Edition, but like you say it requires a TPM to be used and if I had a TPM on my mobo, I certainly wouldn't have the hateful chip enabled.
So far however this does not appear to be the case for Vista, as Microsoft has done away with VLK in favor of requiring activation on all copies, with the Enterprise version of Business using a keyserver. The lack of an immediately piratable version of Vista will undoubtedly slow its adoption compared to XP, and the Business versions' popularity will not be as lopsided.
Before you say that Vista Enterprise is not a copy that any of us are likely to personally choose, because unlike XP it still requires activation, bear in mind that Enterprise edition activation is rather different from other versions and likely to be the first that is cracked indefinitely. Given that you also recommended Vista Business as the preferred version of Vista for experienced users unwilling to pay the extra for Ultimate, that makes Enterprise even more viable as it includes a superset of Vista Business features and the only things it is missing from Ultimate are a few entertainment oriented apps that no one will miss. That's not to say I condone unlicensed use of Vista Enterprise, I'd never say anything like that here, but I think the use of it may be a lot more prelavent than the article suggests. Reply
stash - Friday, February 02, 2007 - link
Vista Enterprise/VLK also includes BitLocker, it is not a feature unique to Ultimate Edition, but like you say it requires a TPM to be used and if I had a TPM on my mobo, I certainly wouldn't have the hateful chip enabled.
BitLocker does NOT require a TPM chip. It can also use a usb flash drive to store the key material. Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkBitLocker requires a TPM chip. This confused us at first too when we were working on the article, but the documentation in Vista for BitLocker clearly states a TPM chip is required. If it's a 1.2 chip or higher the key is stored on the chip, otherwise it's stored on the flash drive.
If it was possible to use BitLocker without a TPM chip, we would have more than likely thrown in some BitLocker benchmarks. Reply
mlambert890 - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkYou're wrong Ryan. BitLocker does NOT require TPM chip. You can store the decrypt AND recovery keys on a USB FOB. Just go here and read scenario 3:
http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsVista/en/libr...">http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsVi...57-b031-... Reply
Ryan Smith - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkInteresting; we looked for something like this when we were doing the prep for this article and came up empty-handed. It's nice to see it's there, though I'm not sure for the reason on why MS would go out of their way to disable this option and not leave any instructions in the Vista help on how to enable it. Thanks for the link. Reply
stash - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkCouple of reasons:
First, it is a hell of a lot more secure to use a TPM to store key material than a USB flash drive. A TPM is essentially a smartcard soldered directly to your motherboard. It is physically and logically tamper-resistant.
Secondly, BitLocker will only do repudiation checks of the system files with a TPM. When using a TPM. the hashes of certain system files are stored in the TPM. On boot, they are compared and if they have been changed, the user will be notified.
So, are you going to answer my question about which common 3rd party apps require admin rights to work properly? Cause right now, my impression of that comment is that it is pure FUD. Reply
LoneWolf15 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkI was concerned about this too, but my new issue of MaximumPC shows how to use Vista's BitLocker without a TPM.
Instead of the TPM holding the security key, you need a thumbdrive to do it instead. Doesn't require a high-capacity one, so any cheapie should do (though I'd choose one with a somewhat bulletproof casing to ensure you never break it and end up screwed).
Zak - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI've finally got around to installing RC2 last week: Dell Inspiron 2GHz CoreDuo, 2GB RAM, 7200RPM HD, 256 Nivdia video. Vista is slow, network transfers are 50% slower or so than in XP, GUI is sluggish and all the improvements are pretty annoying. Interface is too busy and overdone. A simple copy message contains a long unnecessary explanation of what's about to happen. Even after turning off the security features one can't escape the annoying popups and messages. And my hard drive was crunching non-stop all day, I can't even imagine what it does to battery life. I haven't had a virus or spyware in years and I don't see any compelling reasons to switch to Vista. I haven't even tried any multimedia features as none of my DVD and video playback software worked properly and I will not use WMP if my life depended on it, so I can't comment nt on DRM and stuff but I've had enough after few days and restored my XP image back to the laptop. If MS tries to force this on people as its, without major improvements, I see Apple and Linux getting lots of switchers. But them XP was bad at first too so maybe Vista will become usable with SP2:) I myself will desperately look for an alternative to Vista. I don't play games that much any more so this won't be "a must" for me.
Z. Reply
Zebo - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI'm very afraid Zak. I will upgrade due to Microsoft forcing the issue on us gamers with dx10 vista only but with total dread. I may have to start listening to those console fans and linux fans after all. But the lack of TBS games kills consoles for me...SIGH..
I totally agree with you about Virus and spy/malware issues. All are resolved or blocked with free third party apps many years now for anyone with the slightest clue. Same goes for Firewall/searching and other features MS lists on their "100 advantages" site. Vista is just late to the party with what we all know how to do and cripples your computer performance and makes everything so dumbed down visually and practically.
mlambert890 - Saturday, February 03, 2007 - linkYou guys must be using a different OS. I havent heard of anyone with this dismal of an experience at all. If you hate the UI, just run it in legacy mode and it will look like XP. Disable all of the security add ins and they ARE gone. Ive take a Vista machine and set it up to the point that the person using it had no real clue it was Vista but did notice that their laptop seemed quicker.
Have fun on Linux though. Linux is a LOT easier to use/live with than any MS OS! (I need an eyeroll smiley here) Reply
jonp - Monday, February 05, 2007 - linkI would be interested to know if you have installed and worked with SUSE 10.2? as I assume your "...a LOT easier..." is sarcasm. Reply
kalrith - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkThe second sentence of the third paragraph states, "The reason the low end AMD cards look better off here".
I think you meant ATI instead of AMD. Reply
kalrith - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkAnother typo is in the last sentence on the first page. It says, "What's a question we hope to answer..." What's should be That's. Reply
JarredWalton - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkTechnically, ATI is now AMD, which is why we are now referring to the cards as AMD cards. Same thing as ATI, but since they were bought out.... :) Reply
kalrith - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkYou're right...I completely forgot about that. Reply
stash - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkWMDC was RTM'ed yesterday: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?Fa...">http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/deta...0-af33-3... Reply
stash - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link
Similarly, launching an application that requires administrative rights is still more difficult than it needs to be. As we touched upon this briefly last time, with the launch of Vista a lot of common 3rd-party applications will continue to require administrative privileges to run correctly, and it will continue to be this way for some time until everyone has had a chance to retrofit their applications for Vista
Which common 3rd-party apps are you referring to here? Reply
Zebo - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI'm still on 2k pro which I think is faster and more power-user friendly than XP. Is this true in general? I've never noticed a security issue in the first place so these security features and especially those silly "do you really want to run this program" dialog boxes drove me crazy on XP when I tried it. Does vista have a lot of those? Stupid OS I wouldn't have clicked it if I didn't want to run/install/throw it away etc. Reply
Aikouka - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkZebo, it sounds like if you run Vista and don't disable UAC (User Account Control), you will drive yourself crazy. UAC almost literally warns you about every executable opening (I believe certain ones are allowed automatically, like Windows Explorer. I can't remember since I turned it off :P).
Other than that, I don't see anything really different from XP in terms of user warnings and such. There's still the balloons from the system tray and such.
One interesting change that I haven't seen anyone mention is how Windows Update is now an application instead of a website. It seems a bit nicer having it that way as the website with the ActiveX controls always felt so slow to figure out what needed to upgraded. This new WU also includes Ultimate Extras and direct program links to adjust your WU settings (which is handier I think). Reply
Zebo - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link
One interesting change that I haven't seen anyone mention is how Windows Update is now an application instead of a website.
I guess thats a good idea if you use windows update. I don't update just for updates sake subscribing to the "if it aint broke don't fix it" axiom...probably why I still use w2k:) Reply
Zebo - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link
There's still the balloons from the system tray and such.
Oh that's maddening. I literally offered $100 to anyone in a forum thread who could turn those yellow balloons off completely when i tried XP. No one could do it. You can't turn certain ones off despite tens of registry tweaks we tired. Reply
Zorba - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkThe balloons are easy to get rid of. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/power...">TweakUI - FTW
Not sure if it will be in Vista or not, but works great in XP, never seen a balloon except right after I install XP. PM me and I'll let you know where you can send me my check ;). Reply
Zebo - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkBS doesn't work. Been there done that! Show me a SS with you holding mouse over Start button and it doesn't say "click here to begin" I'll gladly pay you $100 for the fix. You can't do it. BTW this drives me fusken crazy! I've been using MS start buttons for eight years like I don't WTF Start means and designates ..Arrr Reply
Zorba - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkAh I thought you were talking about the system tray balloons like that one that always pops up for no reason that always says "now connected to wireless network." That one drives me crazy when I use someone else's lappy.
I never even notice the ones over the start button, I guess I never hold my mouse over it long enough. I could see how you would find them annoying though. Reply
Zorba - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkBTW: I just checked and Win 98 has those boxes over if hold your mouse over the start button, etc too. So it isn't just an XP thing. (Yes I still have 98 on a box at home) Reply
stash - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link
Zebo, it sounds like if you run Vista and don't disable UAC (User Account Control), you will drive yourself crazy. UAC almost literally warns you about every executable opening (I believe certain ones are allowed automatically, like Windows Explorer. I can't remember since I turned it off :P).
Not even close. UAC will prompt you for things that require elevated rights, which besides installing apps or making changes to the system, should be very infrequent.
Which is why I want to know specifically which common 3rd-party apps the author is referring to on the first page. Reply
Aikouka - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkWell, I guess my statement may've been a bit zealous, but you can't forget that literally every application that I ran while UAC on was an install or a system executable to install software that I needed or change settings. The changing the settings may've seemed the worst, as trying to open the system menu from another menu required your authorization. It was a bit crazy sometimes... Reply
redpriest_ - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkDid you guys run the 64-bit tests solely on the Intel Conroe platform? Or did you test an AMD based platform as well? Recall that Conroe has a few performance enhancing features that *only* work in 32-bit mode (branch fusioning, for one - some decoder limitations as well).
That could explain why a Core 2 Duo system might have seemed slower in 64-bit than in 32-bit mode. Reply
Jeff7181 - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkSuperFetch is by far my favorite new feature of Vista. I put my first copy of Vista on my laptop, which has a 5400 RPM hard drive. Opening apps Outlook and VB .NET 2005 EE weren't really slow under XP, but there were those few extra seconds it took to load that would often leave me tapping my finger on the palm rest while I waited. Now under Vista, Outlook, VB .NET 2005 EE, and IE7 all seem to be able to fit in the SuperFetch cache, as they all open nearly instantly with just 1 GB of RAM. I'm considering upgrading to 2 GB just to see what else I can get to open really fast. :D Reply
bldckstark - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkWas superfetch disabled when you tried the Readyboost feature in Vista? Whichever way you ran the test it bears mentioning. If it was off, then how does it do with it on? If it was on, it may make a difference in how it relates to XP.
Also, as I understand it Vista has a system backup now that creates a "ghost" of the drive. Could you check out this feature and get back to us? Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI'm not sure it's possible to disable SuperFetch, so I'm pretty sure all testing was done with it on. As far as the "ghost" goes, that's part of System Restore which can be disabled quite easily. I'll have to let the other editors say whether it was enabled or not, though. Reply
WT - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkWhat drives me nuts are the plentiful comments about how slow Vista is compared to XP. I mean, anybody hear this before when MS came out with a new OS ? Same thing for XP,W2k,98 ... ad nauseum. Yea, its a new Operating System with more 'toys' built in, what were you expecting ? You aren't gonna load it on your P3/256 RAM rig and enjoy the Vista 'experience'. Damn, this thing runs better than XP on my rig !
It's understood that it won't be as quick (keep in mind the OS has been available for retail purchase ... 2 days now) as XP, but drivers will improve that performance gap to a smaller number within 3 months time. I waited until just last year to upgrade to XP (W2K all the way for me !) but find myself with 2 copies of Vista and would prefer to dual boot one and go Vista all-out on the other one.
I griped back in my W2K days about being forced to upgrade due to content (MS games were announced that would only run in XP) so this time around I will be ready.
DX10? Marketing genius !!! We shall force an upgrade upon the masses !! I upgrade frequently, so DX10 and its graphical splendor is a priority, but if I would have to fork over $200 to actually buy Vista, I would be less than impresssed with DX10 eye candy. Reply
EODetroit - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkHopefully, now, finally, Anandtech will start testing motherboards for stability while loaded with the maximum amount of memory. So if the MB supposedly supports 8GB of RAM, you test it with that much, and make sure its stable. I've wanted this done for years... memory is expensive and it sucks to load a MB up and find out it doesn't really work or only works if you cut the speed in half.
manno - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link... no mention of DRM then? No mention of Linux? Personally I hate Linux, but I've switched to it because of Vista's use of DRM. Not all Microsoft's fault, but they put it in there... My computer, my hardware, I choose what to do with it, not MS, not media companies. Why shouldn't I be able to watch High def content on my old, and once expensive non-HDMI LCD screen?
Get a Mac, Apple is the lesser of 2 evils, they aren't the 800lb gorilla in the room. MS could have told media companies to stuff it. Apple has no choice, it's too small, yet their the ones that forced DRM-Light(TM) on the media companies. MS had the media companied force DRM-Oppressive(TM) on them... how the heck does that work?
I can't believe you left Linux out of the final comparison, is it as capable an OS, yes. Not nearly as user friendly, but it also has 0 DRM, doesn't phone-home isn't beholden to any one entity. I'm not against DRM, as a whole, just Vista's implementation. BS like MS creating D3D to subvert open standards like OpenGL, then removing it from the OS, using it's monopoly-based-ridiculous-margins(TM) to finance D3D's uptake, again rather than take an existing standard and expanding on it. They create their own to reinforce their monopoly. I know why they do this stuff I'm just peeved so many people don't give two flying f...
-manno Reply
mlambert890 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkYoure insane dude.. No offense but there just isnt anything else to say. Posts like these always read like the transcript of a Weather Underground meeting in the sixties. "FIGHT THE POWER!!! FIGHT THE POWER!!!"
Look out! The black helicopters have deployed from the underground helipad in Redmond and are circling!!! Send up the penguin symbol to summon the dynamic duo - Torvald and Stallman! Reply
Reflex - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkThere is no more or less DRM in Vista than in XP, or even OS X. The platform does not determine the playback of DRM'd media, the content does. The choice is simple: If you want to play back DRM'd media, then you have to support the decryption scheme that the media requires to decode it. In so doing you have to legally accept the limitations defined by that DRM scheme.
It is no different for OS X, Linux, XP or any other OS. They either support the DRM schemes or they do not get to playback the media that uses them. This is why it is unlikely that you will be able to play DRM'd High Definition content anytime soon on Linux. That is the alternative, no support for the content at all.
Also, you can play high definition content on Vista just fine without HDMI/HDCP on your monitor. You simply cannot play back such content if it is coupled to a DRM scheme that requires HDCP, but that is true of every OS. Any other HD content will play back without issue.
Again, there is no difference between DRM on Vista from DRM on any other platform. Reply
pmh - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkThe DRM in vista is the major reason that I will only install it if physically forced to. Having bought a new Dell in order to get their very nice 24" LCD last december, I have an upgrade coupon which will lie unused until/unless the DRM can be disabled. MS refuses to display HD on my new monitor using Vista? Screw em. Reply
thebrown13 - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkThis is TOTALLY false. Microsoft allows content providers to do what they want with their content. Again, THE CONTENT PROVIDERS DECIDE WHAT THEIR CONTENT PLAYS ON. MICROSOFT DECIDES NOTHING. Reply
MAIA - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkThe architecture is still x86 with 64-bit extensions. The correct naming should be 32-bit x86 and 64-bit x86. Although some vendors use the x64 "slang", this only serves to create more confusion, making people believe it's a different architecture. More, editors and reviewers should use the correct definitions, they also have an educating factor which have to live up by a good standart. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkIt makes little sense on our part to use something different than Microsoft's own terminology here when talking about Vista. The x86-64/EMT64/AMD64 versions of Vista are all called Vista * x64, so we're going to be consistent on using Microsoft's naming to avoid possible confusion among Windows versions. Reply
Myrandex - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkEh I don't know how x64 can get confusing, but x86_64 is pretty typical as well. Reply
smitty3268 - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkActually, it is a new architecture that just happens to be backwards compatible with x86. That is why there are twice the number or registers available and not just the same amount doubled in size. You're right that x64 is not the correct name, (it's technically called x86-64) but what does it matter? Everyone knows what it means. Reply
Gunlance - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI wish I could agree about the new installer. My experience with trying to boot windows vista so far is worse than when I learned how to put NetBSD on an Apple G3.
In fact I am still trying to get into the Windows Vista setup as I type this comment. I have been up all night :( I simply just don't get it. Every OS I have ever put on my desktop at least boots, and the vista beta's installed fine. Ugh.
The article was great! Heh. It has made me a bit more frustrated though. Because here I am with vista but still only being able to read about. Reply
erwos - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkYour OpenGL performance numbers are radically higher than what Tom's has. Could you comment on the drivers and installation that you used? Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkNormally I tend to avoid commenting on anything involving competitors, but...
Assuming I'm looking at the right article here, they were using the Catalyst 18.104.22.168.2.1 driver, which was released back in December. We were using the Catalyst 7.1 driver(version # 8.33.something). ATI did not include an OpenGL driver until 7.1(and just barely at that). Reply
ktgktg - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI'm surprised that the article didn't mention how much ReadyBoost could lower the boot time. A member of notebooreview forums claimed that http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=1...">he lowered the boot time on a laptop (slower HD) from 80 to 43 seconds (including POST) with a 2 GB SD card. Remember that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_memory_...">SD cards are slow compared to USB and CF. Although they're all slow compared to RAM, they have the benefit of storing the data until next boot.
SuperFetch seems to be just another reason for using standby mode. Reply
yacoub - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkAny word on FireFox compatibility with Vista? That is, does it run just as flawlessly as it does under XP x86 and x64?
Just wondering. The comment on the Conclusions page about IE 7+ being the new standard for Safari is what made me think to ask. Reply
LoneWolf15 - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkFirefox runs just fine on Vista. I've been running versions of it (both 1.5x and now 2.x) on Vista since RC1 (I've tested Beta 2, pre-RC1, RC1, and am running RC2 on a spare box).
While IE is fast at loading pages on Vista, I've never been able to get used to IE7's UI. After trying to keep my beta-testing experience as MS-app-oriented as possible, I couldn't and loaded FF. Reply
Aikouka - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI have to say, LoneWolf, that I agree with you when it comes to IE7 on Windows XP. I installed it and it simply didn't fit at all. Although, for some reason, IE7 doesn't seem weird on Vista at all. It's probably because of how Windows Explorer also looks the same (lack of a menu bar).
Also to go along with LoneWolf, I have had no issues with Firefox (188.8.131.52) in Vista so far :). Reply
Spacecomber - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI didn't see this covered in my first pass through this article, but I was interested in learning more about the potential impact of MS's new Universal Audio Architecture on gaming performance, which I recently saw covered in a http://www.dailytech.com/Underneath+Microsofts+Uni...">DailyTech news item. Reply
quanta - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkThere is NO performance to speak of, because Vista does not support hardware DirectSound acceleration. Alchemy only works on X-Fi, so anything older is useless. Reply
Cygni - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkOne thing ive really been wondering about is what MCE is like in Vista? The article briefly mentioned TV Tuner support worked fine, but was MCE tried? Was it different? How was its performance under Vista? For me, thats the deciding factor. Reply
Anand Lal Shimpi - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI'll be doing a look at MCE in Vista as soon as we get a system in house with the ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner (formerly known as OCUR). I'm hoping that this will happen in the coming weeks.
Take care,
Anand Reply
Aikouka - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkAnand, doesn't that digital tuner require some special sort of hardware to run? I believe I remember a thread on the forums (under Video if I remember correctly) that discussed how it won't run on every system regardless of how powerful they are.
One thing I'm curious of... does Windows Vista's MC application have the same tuner restrictions as MCE's MC application? Because I originally purchased a TV Wonder Pro awhile back for normal use, and now it sits in my MCE machine dormant, because MCE doesn't support it (although open source MC-esque applications do). If it weren't for the nice ATi RF remote, I probably would've sold it already for one that works in MCE :P. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkTo be honest, I have never more than glanced at MCE, as I don't have a HTPC to make much use of it. I could tell you a bit about it, but I'm not really qualified to go in-depth about it, so we left it out. Reply
Myrandex - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linksame here too. I used to run XP64 full time but then switched to MCE for the MCE app. I am really interested in Vista x64 with MCE and I would have loved to see something about it. Reply
ATWindsor - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI really hope there is som driver-issue that explains the poor network-performance in this test, XP is already pretty bad in this regard, one of the big things with Vista is that the network performance should be better.
And furthermore i have two questions: The search, does it support network-drives? Search Desktop for XP does not...
Is there software raid-5 support in Vista?
A few disappointing things with Vista:
- Still the 255-charachter-limit, that is really annoying.
- Still an enormously primitive file-copying-application. This is basic important stuff that should be better.
AtW Reply
Lifted - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link
The search, does it support network-drives? Search Desktop for XP does not...
That's odd. I can search network drives using XP Pro. Maybe it's a Pro vs. Home issue?
Was also wondering about the network test myself. 10MB/s file copy on XP Pro seems abysmally slow when using gigabit NIC's. Just testing right now I about 35MB/s between a pair of 5 year old servers (dual Xeon 1GHz) with Intel GB NIC's. I haven't checked transfer rates with XP as I'm on a 10/100 switch at the moment, but I can't believe it's really THAT much slower than 2003. Reply
Aikouka - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI remember running a gigabit cross-over (CAT6) cable between my roommate's computer and my computer in college. We achieved about 33MB/s (through FTP) running Windows XP Professional on each. So I'd say that you'd probably see about the same speed if you were running a gigabit switch. Reply
mjz - Monday, February 05, 2007 - linki think windows xp sets a limit when downloading from another computer to 33MB/s.. Reply
Nehemoth - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkSame here.
I just wanna Vista for the improve TCP/IP Stack, now I'll wait for SP1 Reply
tallsummi - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI'll wait for SP2 of vista and then go for it.. Reply
keitaro - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkPerhaps Microsoft should have copied the idea from Novell's SUSE Linux Desktop (powered by XGL and compiz). The compiz software package (compositor and window manager) comes with its own alt-tab that surpasses Flip 3D in every way. http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/xg...">See here for a look at what XGL and compiz can do. Reply
mlambert890 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkI think that xgl crap is an overenginered waste that adds 0 productivity. Flip 3d gives you the one thing you need - a live shot of running apps. Who the hell needs some spinning cube? And look how bad video playback perf is in that Novell demo...
bleh... I dont feel myself drawn back to 1992 when I lived and breathed Novell; sorry... Reply
Locutus465 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkI dont' know, personally I like flip 3d better.. Reply
archcommus - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkThe article makes me a bit sad about Vista. It made me realize - wow, yeah, it really IS a shame that Vista doesn't totally smash OS X Tiger given how long it's been in development and how long Tiger has been out for. I guess they just got in such a rut of catch-up that not many new revolutionary features could be developed.
In particular, I'm disappointed with how similar (and ugly) certain aspects of Vista look compared to XP, for example the quick launch area, system tray, clock, and the overall taskbar. With the exception of the Start buttion being replaced by an "orb," it looks EXACTLY the same as XP, and this could have been and should have been revamped to improve productivity. Quick launch is just...stupid, and ugly. All it is is additional shortcuts, and they waste taskbar space. I think a small menu that appears and disappears on the fly would be nicer. I'm not sure what improvements to suggest for the taskbar, all I know is, with how pretty the rest of the OS looks, the application blocks down there just look out of place. Same with the system tray icons.
Explorer is better though and the transparency is great. It's too bad x64 performance and drivers aren't up to snuff yet. Reply
thebrown13 - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkMicrosoft has to cater to about 349852395472039 more software programs.
That's why. Updates, bug fixes, feature designing, it all takes A LOT longer than with an OS with 5 people that use it, like Apple.
We're lucky the mainstream OS isn't MUCH farther behind. Reply
BPB - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - link
Quick launch is just...stupid, and ugly. All it is is additional shortcuts, and they waste taskbar space. I think a small menu that appears and disappears on the fly would be nicer.
If you want Quick Launch to work that way, just add the icons you want into the Qucik Launch folder. Then unlock your taskbar and drag the bar which allows the display of the Quick Launch icons all the way left. Then lock your taskbar. Now you can just click the arrow that shows in the taskbar and it will display all your Quick Launch icons snd "disappear on the fly". It's not perfect, but it's closer to what you want. No wasted space AND you get your Quick Launch icons. Reply
darklight0tr - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkQuick Launch is one on my favorite features in Windows, because it allows you to quickly launch commonly used programs. I just wish Microsoft would have enhanced it with additional functionality. I have to use a 3rd party program to the features I want to Quick Launch.
Despite the issues with x64, that's the version I will get when I migrate to Vista. I just wish Microsoft would have been able to release Vista as a x64 only OS. The availability of a 32bit version of Vista will keep the migration to x64 to a crawl. Reply
creathir - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI cannot stand it... it does drive me nuts...
Will most users not use it? I highly doubt that. Turning it off is not as easy as "1...2...3... OFF!"
It does involve some tinkering to get it to turn off...
The problem is, this is how things should have been from the beginning, but we have been spoiled by the lack of security. I really do not find that it gets in the way or anything like that.
It's as if Microsoft spent a good portion of the past few years working on an enhanced security design that nobody will actually use.
I'm not sure if I would QUITE go that far... given the vast majority will have NO CLUE on how to turn it off…
Just my thoughts.
- Creathir Reply
Locutus465 - Friday, February 02, 2007 - linkhttp://vistasupport.mvps.org/turn_off_user_account...">http://vistasupport.mvps.org/turn_off_user_account...
One of the many links I found by going to start and typing into the new Windows Search box located there in Vista :)
Search is going to be one of the biggest selling points, works much better in Vista than it did in XP (I've used it in both). Reply
Aikouka - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkJarred's right, it's actually very easy to turn off. Although if you turn it off, Windows will bug you to no end in their protection center to turn it back on (which you can turn that off too :P). I ended up turning it off when trying to install drivers for my Realtek ALC888 codec on my Gigabyte GA-965P-DQ6, because at first, the driver install kept looping and asking if I really wanted to install unsigned drivers. I kept hitting yes, they kept going back and prompting me. After Vista said the driver install failed and asked if I'd like to run it in a higher privileged mode, I did so. Then the install told me that I needed to be <b>ON VISTA</b> to install the drivers. I ended up installing a different set of drivers that I didn't even expect to work with the ALC888-DD.
Also, to add in with drivers, UAC caused a weird issue with the 100.54 drivers from nVidia. When UAC prompted you, the screen fades into a B&W gray-ish hue ( kind of like when shutting down XP ), but when you're running DualView on Vista and you hit a button to close the prompt (being it accepting the action or whatever), the other screen literally freaks out. It goes to some weird graphical pattern for a second and then goes back to normal. Although the problem doesn't stay, it's quite noticeable out of the corner of my eye. Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=vista+tur...">Easy as 1-2-3, or just http://technet2.microsoft.com/WindowsVista/en/libr...">get it from Microsoft. My feeling is that most people will *want* it off, even if they don't know how to shut it off, and I'll reword that sentence appropriately. :) Reply
Jedi2155 - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkIs there still Memory Address limitation with the 32-bit version of Vista?
Like say, I had a SLI board (eVGA 680i in particular), and I wanted more than 2 GB, would I still hit the 2.25 GB wall due to address bus or does Vista gets around this and is actually able to address the 4 GB if I had that installed? Or is my only option is still go with x64 version of Vista.... Reply
JarredWalton - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkIt depends on motherboard and BIOS as well as the OS. AFAIK, you can't get more than 3.5GB (and often only 3GB) of accessible memory with any 32-bit OS on x86. The top 512MB is reserved. Perhaps it is OS dependent and you can get closer to 4GB, but for MS operating systems I think it's always been 3.5GB max. Whereas in XP you needed to use the /3gb switch for the OS, on Vista you use:
BCDEDIT IncreaseUserVA [size]
Or something like that. I don't know if the maximum is any different on 32-bit Vista than 32-bit XP, but I would bet it's the same. Reply
Ryan Smith - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkYou're almost right. It's possible to get all 4GB(and more) on a 32bit system when using Physical Address Extension. However most consumer level boards don't implement this at the hardware level past what's required to support the NX bit(which also requires PAE), so most people can not get all 4GB in 32bit mode. With XP and Vista, you can get all 4GB as long as PAE is fully supported, however actually using PAE to get 4GB+ brings about some compatibility/performance problems, which is why 64bit addressing is a cleaner solution.
The /3gb switch is an entirely different thing, it adjusts the 2/2 split between user processes and the kernel so that user processes can go up to 3GB by taking some memory from the kernel's space(which also can cause problems, oy). Reply
Spoelie - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI haven't read the article yet (am doing so in a minute) but just a thought by having a first look at the article index: I was wondering what impact Aero would have on power consumption. We know that it runs the UI on the graca, so the graca would be in use all the time. Is the load on it high or low? You can collect a lot of data on such a thing (power consumption while idling, moving windows around, ... on vista with aero, without aero, on winxp...)
It could be that it gets a mention in the review, it's just not apparant from the index. I'll apologise beforehand if it does. Reply
FireChicken - Thursday, February 01, 2007 - linkI liked the old article title better.. Reply
grzemaz - Thursday, June 24, 2010 - linkWhat should you do if the readyboost pendrive had been lost? How turn readyboost off when you do not have your old pendrive and you want to turn readyboost on with another one??? Reply
ghd nz - Monday, January 07, 2013 - linkhttp://www.ghdplanchas-baratas.org Reply
lordcatalien - Thursday, June 06, 2013 - linkI'm curious for you to perform the same test above with Adobe Illustrator. My performance didn't seem to be affected even with a 3GB ReadyBoost in place. Reply
Ikem64 - Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - link> Vista's auto-_tuning_ system is designed to surpass XP's scaling system
Typo. Reply


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Qualcomm Shows Off APQ8064: Quad-core Krait and Adreno 320by Jason Inofuentes on 7/16/2012 11:11 PM EST
33 Comments
Back to Article
aegisofrime - Monday, July 16, 2012 - linkWith the next generation of Nexus phone(s) around the corner, I'm looking forward to reading that article. Also, there are lots of smaller Chinese SoC designers coming up, would be interesting to look at them in greater detail. Particularly Mediatek (ok they are Taiwanese), which makes SoC that powers the majority of lower end Android handsets. Reply
lowlymarine - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkAre all the major semiconductor companies fighting to see who can make their product nomenclature the least meaningful? It was one thing when it was just AMD slapping pseudo-random "ratings" on their CPUs, but nowadays we've got Intel's i-somethingmeaningless, AMD's four different product lines and random numbers, and now the mobile space has abandoned all vestiges of common sense too:
APQ 8050: Single-core 65nm Scorpion with Adreno 200
APQ 8055: Single-core 45nm Scorpion with Adreno 205
APQ 8060: Dual-core 45nm Scorpion with Adreno 220
APQ 8030: Dual-core 28nm Krait with Adreno 305
APQ 8060A: Dual-core 28nm Krait with Adreno 225 (is this better or worse than 8030? Who knows!)
Now we have APQ 8064: Quad-core 28nm Krait with Adreno 320
Don't even get me started with the ones with cellular modems. MSM 8260 is GSM APQ 8060, MSM 8660 is CDMA, what's MSM 8960 then? Why it's Krait. <i>Of course.</i> Reply
frostyfiredude - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkIt was working alright till Krait came along, now it's a pile of WTF. The GPU names from nVidia and AMD make sense atleast, from a pure performance/generation perspective anyway. Reply
Brian Klug - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkI honestly have no problem with any of QCT's product numbers, it's pretty simple when you get the hang of it.
MSM = Mobile Station Modem
MDM = Mobile Data Modem
QSD = Qualcomm SnapDragon
APQ = Application Processor Qualcomm
MPQ = MultiProcessor Qualcomm(?)
First digit is somewhat ambiguous, but 7 = value, 8 = mid to high end
Second digit is for air interface, 2 = 3GPP, 6 = 3GPP + 3GPP2, 9 = 3GPP (WCDMA+LTE), 3GPP2
Third and 4th digit is for the AP inside, higher is better (usually), eg 50 - single core, 55 single core, die shrink, 60 - dual core, 60A - dual core new architecture
I have no problem following it, so long as you steer clear of the namespace collisions that are MSM8660A and MSM8260A (both dual core krait, new baseband).
Anyhow that's my usual rant when I hear that the QCT parts are hard to follow...
Now, let's not get started on Nvidia, T30, T30L, T33, wat?!
-Brian Reply
agag - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkI disagree on how easy the part numbers are to follow. I worked at Qualcomm for a year, and it probably took me six months to figure out the part numbers. There weren't really any internal references to clarify things either, either-- the best reference I found was the Wikipedia article on Snapdragon.
QSD was only used for a short period of time-- everything is now MSM again.
The 8xxx chips were, at least until last year, the only ones branded as "Snapdragon," which signified >1GHz clock speed. But of course one can clock the same part differently, and thus the 7x30 is exactly the same chip as the 8x55, except the 7x30 was clocked at 800MHz and the 8x55 is clocked higher. Reply
bennyg - Thursday, July 19, 2012 - linkYou have any idea how much research has gone into the crossover between numbers, marketing, and psychology?
Intel in particular know their buyers and numbers, you think they choose their processor numbers from a hat or by feeling? They know exactly why their products are numbered what they are... and how much to charge for each of them.
Qualcomm's numbers may be random... not all of them do though. The technical term for what AMD started with the compete-with-P4-GHz ratings thing: quasi-quantitative. Reply
CoreDuo - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - link> The quad core, the 4410, is shipping internationally in the Galaxy S III, and is by all accounts a scorcher
4412 not 4410, yes? Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkYep. Fixed. Thanks. Reply
jjj - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkAbout the competition the main thing is still the CPU and if they have quad Krait they might just have to compete with dual cores A15 and in late 2013 be the first to go 20nm.
There is also the timing,this way they get deals for phones shown at CES and MWC that won't get EOLed before the end of 2013.
About integration ,they should integrate (on die or in package) as much as they can and not only compute units ,smaller PCB and lower volume are something everybody is looking for.
I am curious about very specialized cores (like in GreenDroid http://greendroid.ucsd.edu/ ) but i doubt we'll see that kind of thing soon.
On the fabs issue, there was the rumour that they might invest in UMC and maybe they actually do it but i doubt they'll use Samsung.Most likely they'll go for both UMC and GloFo.
I am more curious to see if Qualcomm (and others) will manage to have 20nm in late 2013 and if anyone that goes 20nm early also goes FinFET in (maybe) 2014- we know that UMC intends to have a FinFET version of it's 20nm process and it seems that TSMC might do the same , Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkSpecializing the die and package to too fine a degree is a bit risky. It takes time and resources to alter the fab for an utterly bespoke chip, and so you need a customer willing to pay more and commit to however many chips your going to make. We've seen it done, most notably with Apple sourcing Samsung SoC's for the iPhone, but also with the repackaged CPU of the original MBA. But those were package redesigns, integrating additional phone components on die, or even on package could prove more difficult.
The list of items is pretty slim as it is:
-power management
-baseband power amps
-new radio components
-new interface components
I'm sure I'm missing some but all of those are risky to integrate. Memory and NAND lock the OEM into whatever quantity of each they ordered. So, if customers want more of your 16GB product, but you have tons of your 8GB product, then your stuck holding the bag. Power management seems a real possibility, as do sensors, but they're also value add components that often get left off of lower end devices, so you might only integrate them on your higher end chips. Power amps for international devices might be something they could consider, but in the US, with every network using a different set of frequencies, it wouldn't be feasible. New radio and interface components is a very real possibility; if a wireless display standard wins out that could be integrated, if an application for USB3 or TB on phones is found, that could be added.
We'll see what gets added next, but probably not for a while. Reply
twotwotwo - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkI'm surprised by benchmarks that favor the international (Exynos-based) Samsung SGS3's over the US (S4-based) ones. Some numbers pulled from Anandtech tests (international first, then US):
SunSpider: 1424 vs. 1751 (Exynos wins)
BrowserMark: 161710 vs. 114812 (Exynos wins)
Vellamo: 2072 vs. 2290 (S4 wins--note this is Qualcomm's benchmark)
GLBenchmark offscreen 720p: 103 fps vs. 54 (Exynos wins)
The Exynos has a better GPU (Mali-something), and will win on any highly multithreaded benchmarks, but I'm confused at how it gets that better SunSpider score, since I thought SunSpider was CPU-only and single-threaded. Does the A9 design inherently beat Krait at SunSpider, and if so does that mean anything for day-to-day performance? Is SunSpider more multithreaded than it seems? Does the Exynos' turbo-boost-type dynamic clocking favor it in benchmarks (with battery life suffering)? Are the two flavors of SGS3 not actually fair comparison platforms (different software or clocks or something?)? You guys know if anyone does. :)
For the record, here's an Engadget page about this and AnandTech sources for numbers:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6022/samsung-galaxy-... Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkYou'll get more of this in our State of the SoC discussion but I'll drop a preview here.
Let's look at the Windows PC model real quick. You can go to the store, pick out your mobo, your CPU, your GPU and your memory and storage. Grab a wireless card and some HIDs, and a nice monitor and now you've got a lot of stuff that does nothing. So, you go grab your OS of choice and load it up, but let's say you don't load any device specific drivers. It'll work, it'll boot. But the display driver won't go over 1024x768 and is really sluggish. The WiFi doesn't work, at all. And your USB3 ports are running at USB2. Your CPU is working fine, except maybe it doesn't use the media acceleration components. So, you go find drivers.
That's pretty much the same thing that happens in the SoC space. When an OEM orders chips from Qualcomm, or any of the chip makers, they get Android builds that have been optimized to leverage all the silicon components on that SoC. It's the showcase build, and it's what is found in Qualcomm's Mobile Development Platform. Those builds are for the OEM to look at, and to select parts of and implement in their own software. But, they don't have to, and often they don't want to because they've already put in tons of work building their own version of Android and it would take more time and resources to integrate the new code when it probably works well enough.
In this case, Samsung's Android has always included it's own version of the Android browser that uses SOME GPU acceleration, and a few other silicon specific optimizations. When they use S4, they aren't likely to tear down and rebuild their software to leverage S4's strengths, knowing most likely that to the average user the difference will be invisible. And so, Sunspider on optimized software vs. unoptimized, we know who will win.
Now, that said, the best results from Qualcomm's Android build still don't beat Exynos in Sunspider (1532 vs. 1424). There are other optimizations that can be done that do things like recognize opportunities for parallelism in a program and implement them, that's a possibility. It's also possible that some of the Sunspider tests do lend themselves to multiple cores (the crypto ones come to mind). Regardless, you have to look at the broader case to make your choices, not SoC alone.
We love Krait's performance and power characteristics, but we hate it that they're alone. Competition is good. Even where physics poses limitations on how fast one can innovate, competition ensures that everyone's on their toes. I think it's a shame that the carriers were more interested in featuring their network speeds than offering the customer a chance to own a top notch quad-core phone. Hopefully that won't continue when Cortex-A15 designs start to make their way onto the market. Reply
tipoo - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkJust wanted to say I've been wanting an up to date SoC article, looking forward to that.
Also to the OP my impression was that Samsung does a lot of their own optimization for the browser/SoC combo which leads to higher scores than you would expect. Reply
twotwotwo - Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - linkThanks--very helpful. And agree about competition--the folk wisdom seems to be nobody has but Qualcomm a next-gen CPU + LTE baseband with low enough wattage, which is frustrating when there are other great CPU/GPU designs out there. Interested to read the update. Reply
dagamer34 - Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - linkWe also know from Microsoft's 1200 SunSpider Score from it's Windows Phone 8 Dev Summit that there's still a bit more performance to be extracted from these SoCs. Heck, the iPhone 4S is competitive with most Android phones and it has a Cortex A9 CPU clocked at ~800Mhz. So it really is all about optimizations. Reply
ltcommanderdata - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - link"Adreno 3xx is so far only being announced to run at 9_3, leaving it in the Geforce 200 space, and at feature parity with NVIDIA's Kal-El Geforce GPU."
With the Geforce 200 series being DX Level 10_0 parts, the Adreno 3xx would actually be comparable to the ATI X700/X800. I believe DX Level 9_3 is defined against SM2.0b, so feature-wise the Adreno 3xx should be below DX9.0c/SM3.0 GPUs like the ATI X1000 and nVidia 6000/7000 series.
"If Samsung Semiconductor found itself with spare capacity, an eager customer (Qualcomm), and a handset manufacturer (Samsung Mobile) interested in using a 28nm product with limited availability, it could be reasoned that they'd partner with Qualcomm to deliver SoCs for the US Galaxy S IIIs"
Recent Samsung fab coverage has been about their 32nm process. Are there any details on their 28nm process? With the 32nm process still ramping, was the 28nm process developed in parallel or is it's ramp a few months behind? How does Samsung's 28nm process compare to TSMC and UMCs? Reply
rd_nest - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkSome marketing info here: http://www.samsung.com/us/business/oem-solutions/m...
http://www.samsung.com/us/business/semiconductor/n... Reply
ltcommanderdata - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkThanks for the links. I wonder how Samsung's 28nm process compares to their 32nm process since all their comparisons are relative to the 45nm process? Half nodes have historically been focused on cost-optimization so the 28nm process's major benefit is probably just making smaller dies rather than major power consumption improvements relative to the 32nm process. Reply
esteinbr - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkThe DirectX level really doesn't have any correlation to performance of a part. It's actually tells you the functional capabilities. Generally, higher DirectX levels do correspond to new cards which are naturally faster but it doesn't have to be that way. A Bottom of the line budget directx 10 card isn't necessarily going to be faster than a top of the line directx 9.3 card from the previous generation. Reply
ltcommanderdata - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkI never made any association to performance at all. I'm merely saying that a feature level 9_3 GPU like the Adreno 3xx is not at feature parity with the GeForce 200 series rather it's feature set is in line with SM2.0b GPUs like the X700/X800. Reply
MadMan007 - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkAdreno 320 with a dual-core MSM S4 please. Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkThat's the S4 Pro, or MSM8960A. It'll be around before year end, I expect. Reply
SydneyBlue120d - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - link"The IP used for the A/V components in S4 Prime will be 3rd party, however it's always possible that Qualcomm will put their capable DSP and silicon engineers to work on their own proprietary A/V blocks."
Are you completely sure it is 3rd party IP? Do You remember that Qualcomm acquired HQV last Year?
http://www.qualcomm.com/media/releases/2011/09/07/... Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkIt's 3rd party, today. It won't be in the future. But today's A/V components are definitely 3rd party. Reply
Tanclearas - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - link"Another wise gamble would be to integrate wireless display technology"
Actually, S4 is supposed to feature that already.
"Every Snapdragon S4 device will support WiFi Display, but the first ones to ship will not have it enabled out of the box. Android already supports the WiFi Direct software stack, but the WiFi Display still needs to be tested and finalized." Reply
JasonInofuentes - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkNoted. WIll update. Thanks. Reply
hormel - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkI know it isn't intended for high end smart phones, but I wish they had an LTE modem in it. I would have made the most awesome cell phone in the world. Reply
dagamer34 - Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - linkFor the moment, these are meant for tablets. I suspect they traded baseband space for more cores. Reply
jwcalla - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkHopefully this DirectX silliness stays away from the mobile space and hopefully it won't be used to draw comparisons between SoCs. Game developers are going to stick with OpenGL (I pray) since they want to target iOS and Android too.
The choice is between an open-standard library and one that is proprietary and locked to a single platform. Seems pretty clear-cut to me. Reply
phoenix_rizzen - Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - linkIt's needed for GPUs that will be used in Windows RT tablets. Although, I believe it's more about what features are available, than actually using DirectX to access the GPU. But I could be wrong about that.
I would also like to see more information about the actual OpenGL version/features supported, instead of some random DirectX stuff. Reply
Lucian Armasu - Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - linkI hope so, too. I don't understand why the author even mentions it. even if they have "DirectX 11 support", that doesn't need it necessarily supports all the features of DirectX11 like the PC cards do, does it?
What's far more relevant is OpenGL ES 3.0 support, which all new mobile GPU architectures will have, including Adreno 320, Mali T604, Tegra 4 and so on. Reply
dagamer34 - Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - linkDirectX cards v10 and up require capabilities to be present in order to be certified. This isn't like DirectX 9 where developers needed to check cap bits to see what was supported in a piece of hardware. Reply
Lucian Armasu - Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - linkMali T604 will also haen ve Directx11 support, and it's coming out this year, rather than the next like PowerVR 6200. Reply


text:
The votes are in and it looks like this month's Online Block Party is... Pizza and Other Breads On The Grill! (Because Thanksgiving was too obvious...).
Judging from Steven's own posts and the posts of several members, this one is going to be a real feast for the eyes and the imagination!
Submit as many posts and pics as you like!


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National Survey of Families and Households, 1987-1988 (ICPSR 6041)
Principal Investigator(s): Bumpass, Larry L., University of Wisconsin-Madison. Center for Demography and Ecology; Sweet, James A., University of Wisconsin-Madison. Center for Demography and Ecology
This collection provides data on the family experience in the United States. At a time when the range of family structures is becoming more and more diverse, this study permits a close examination of the resulting family compositions and household operations. One adult, the primary respondent, was chosen from each of 13,017 households in the study. In addition to the main interview conducted with the primary respondent, a shorter, self-administered questionnaire was given to the spouse or cohabitating partner. Data were gathered on the composition of families and on the relationship of household members to each other, including marriage, separation, and divorce histories, adoption, child custody arrangements, and stepfamily relations. Respondents were also asked about the quality of their relationships with their parents, children, and in-laws. Information on economic well-being is also provided, including earnings from wages, self-employment income, interest, dividends, investments, pensions, Social Security, public assistance, and child support/alimony. Demographic variables include sex, age, and marital status.
Access Notes
The public-use data files in this collection are available for access by the general public. Access does not require affiliation with an ICPSR member institution.
This study is maintained and distributed by the National Archive of Computerized Data on Aging (NACDA), the aging program within ICPSR. NACDA is sponsored by the National Institute on Aging (NIA) at the National Institutes of Heath (NIH).
ASCII + SPSS Setup
ASCII + SAS Setup
Study Description
Bumpass, Larry L., and James A. Sweet. National Survey of Families and Households, 1987-1988. ICPSR06041-v1. Ann Arbor, MI: Inter-university Consortium for Political and Social Research [distributor], 2009-03-16. https://doi.org/10.3886/ICPSR06041.v1
Persistent URL: https://doi.org/10.3886/ICPSR06041.v1
Export Citation:
- RIS (generic format for RefWorks, EndNote, etc.)
- EndNote XML (EndNote X4.0.1 or higher)
This study was funded by:
- United States Department of Health and Human Services. National Institutes of Health. Center for Population Research (HD-21009)
Scope of Study
Subject Terms: adoption, child custody, child support, divorce, education, experience, families, family life, family relationships, family structure, fertility, financial assets, household composition, income, job history, life events, life history, living arrangements, marital relationships, parental attitudes, psychological wellbeing, social contact, stepfamilies, wages and salaries
Geographic Coverage: United States
- 1987-03--1988-05
- 1987-03--1988-05
Universe: Noninstitutionalized population aged 19 and older or married in the contiguous United States.
(1) Two percent of the interviews were conducted in Spanish. (2) A second wave of this study was conducted in 1992-1994 and is available as NATIONAL SURVEY OF FAMILIES AND HOUSEHOLDS: WAVE I, 1987-1988, and WAVE II, 1992-1994 (ICPSR 6906). (3) Users of the NSFH data should consult the NSFH Web site at http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/nsfh to check for periodic updates of the data. The website also offers a bibliography, working papers, and other information about NSFH. Users may also contact the ICPSR resource person for this site at firstname.lastname@example.com.
Sample: National, stratified, multistage area probability sample based on 1985 population projections for Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas and nonmetropolitan counties. Minorities (Blacks, Puerto Ricans, and Chicanos), single parents, persons with stepchildren, cohabiting persons, and persons who were recently married were double-sampled.
personal interviews and self-enumerated questionnaires
Original ICPSR Release: 1994-05-20
Related Publications
- List all ~688 citations associated with this study
- View citations for the entire series
Most Recent Publications
Instructional Resources
Instructional guides that utilize this dataset are available:
Metadata Exports
- Citations exports are provided above.
Export Study-level metadata (does not include variable-level metadata)
If you're looking for collection-level metadata rather than an individual metadata record, please visit our Metadata Records page.


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Sony NEX-5N : Tests and Reviews
Sony NEX-5N side by side comparisons
Sony NEX-5N versus predecessor
Sony NEX-5N versus Olympus model
Sony NEX-5N versus Panasonic model
Sony NEX-5N versus Canon model
Sony NEX-5N versus Nikon model
Sony NEX-5N versus rival model with similar score
Try our side-by-side camera comparison tool
Further readings for the Sony NEX-5N
To provide photographers with a broader perspective about mobiles, lenses and cameras, here are links to articles, reviews, and analyses of photographic equipment produced by DxOMark, renown websites, magazines or blogs.
The Sony NEX-5T is an update of the firm's NEX-5R model, introduced last year. It retains all of the features of its predecessor including the same 16-Mpix APS-C sized CMOS sensor but adds adding NFC (Near Field Communication) enabled WiFi. Read on to find out how well the camera performs.
Hybrid is a word used both positively and negatively, quite appropriate for the photographic industry. The Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 wears this badge: "Hybrid", a mix of system and compact. It has a range of lenses spanning 7mm to 300mm (equivalent to 14mm up to 600mm in full frame 35mm) and a body that is not much bigger than a compact camera. Should it wear it with pride? Yes, it should…
Announced in September 2012, the Sony NEX-6 creates a new range in the Sony line-up. It sits between the flagship Sony NEX-7 and the mid-range Sony NEX-5R offering features and performance benefits to beginner and advanced photographers alike. Providing a simplified user-interface than the NEX-7, the NEX-6 is none-the-less fully featured with a high-resolution OLED viewfinder, Full HD video recording and a tilt-adjustable screen for ease of use.
With the Pen E-PL5, Olympus updates its range of micro 4:3 compact hybrids with redesigned ergonomics, upgraded electronics, and especially with the integration of the same 16Mpix LiveMos sensor found in the OM-D E-M5. Will it show the same advances in image quality as the flagship camera of its line? Our tests provide the answer.
Announced at IFA 2012, Sony's NEX-5R is the third version of its very popular NEX-5 camera. This new model features a 16-megapixel APS-C EXMOR sensor composed of photosites that provide autofocusing by phase detection. Has Sony improved the image quality of its latest mid-range compact hybrid? Our tests reveal the answer.
The Sony NEX-6 is a well-thought-out compact hybrid that, like the NEX-7, takes into account the needs of the expert amateur, but also considers the needs of beginning photographers as well.
The NEX-F3 is one of three Sony mirrorless camera models released in 2012, and it's the company's eighth since the launch of the NEX line in 2010. The NEX-F3 borrows heavily from higher-end models, but also taps much of the technology found in its predecessor. So is there any big evolution in sensor quality for the NEX-F3? Or were most of the changes to the camera cosmetic? DxOMark has some answers.
Olympus caused a sensation when it revived the legendary OM line that had enjoyed its heyday in the silver halide era. The Olympus OM-D E-M5 successfully revisits the OM design in terms of its ergonomics and workmanship. Olympus has quite precisely taken advantage of this new family in its line of compact hybrid micro 4:3 cameras to introduce a new 16 Mpix Live MOS sensor. What is this new sensor all about? Does it represent an improvement over current Pen sensors? Does it help the micro 4:3 category to catch up with the APS-C hybrids (with the Sony NEX in the lead)? Our sensor review provides the answers.
Added by thirtywest | April 01 , 2012
cable release
Can a shutter cable release be used with any of the Sony Nex cameras? I need to be 2 meters behind the camera when firing and the remote controlled sensor is on the front. A physical cable or some way to re-direct the infrared sensor is needed.
Added by digitphotography | October 06 , 2011
nex-5n review
"This was to be expected as the sensor of the A77 accommodates 50% more pixels in the same surface. So, as the A77 pixels are smaller, they catch less light, giving the A77 a lower Lowlight score." Huh? Doesn't the dxomark testing procedure account for this by normalizing results to a given print size? Surely the difference has more to do with the SLT design of the A77. This statement perpetuates the more-megapixels-equals-more-noise myth, a myth that dxomark itself debunks with an excellent article.
Reply | Read all replies for this comment
First replies for this comment
Added by Nicolas | October 07 , 2011
Re: nex-5n review
You are completely right.
This mistake threaded its way through our proof reading process. We corrected the review.
Thanks a lot for pointing it out.


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Berenice Abbott meets Weegee, A Chance Encounter
Art has a way of overlapping ideas, much like life itself. Photography is no exception and has the peculiar habit of showing us familiar things we may have seen through another photographers lens. It is a curious phenomenon that photo historians have written about, eloquently, for decades.


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Forbes poll tabs Tebow as most influential athlete
Published: Monday, May 6, 2013 at 7:26 p.m.
Last Modified: Monday, May 6, 2013 at 7:26 p.m.
NEW YORK — Even on the unemployment line, Tim Tebow remains a popular presence.
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The next-closest NFL player was Denver's Peyton Manning, who replaced Tebow with the Broncos last offseason and finished fifth in the survey.
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MISS COCO PERU: She's Got Balls 2/8
The Lily Tomlin/Jane Wagner Cultural Arts Center
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 8:00 PM (PST)
Event Details
Miss Coco Peru's all-new show, She's Got Balls, was inspired by her mother Helen's advice to have the balls to say whatever the heck she feels like saying. Coco is on a quest to do just that…and, in the process, make the world just a little more beautiful.
When & Where
Renberg Theatre, The Village at Ed Gould Plaza
1125 N McCadden Pl
Los Angeles,
Friday, February 8, 2013 at 8:00 PM (PST)
Add to my calendar
The Lily Tomlin/Jane Wagner Cultural Arts Center
The Lily Tomlin/Jane Wagner Cultural Arts Center is a program of the Los Angeles LGBT Center. Our theatres at The Village at Ed Gould Plaza include the Renberg Theatre, a 200 seat state-of-the-art theatre, and the Davidson/Valentini Theatre, a 50 seat black box theatre.
Since 1969 the Los Angeles LGBT Center has cared for, championed and celebrated LGBT individuals and families in Los Angeles and beyond. Today, through our health center, shelters, performance stages and classrooms, we provide services for more LGBT people than any other organization in the world. We are an unstoppable force in the fight against bigotry and the struggle to build a better world; a world in which LGBT people can be healthy, equal and complete members of society.


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