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Scores Killed in Israeli Air Attacks on Gaza
Posted on Dec 27, 2008
More than 150 people were killed and hundreds more wounded Saturday during Israeli airstrikes on Gaza, which were launched in retaliation for last week's rocket attacks on Israel by the Palestinians, according to Israeli officials.
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By cann4ing, December 28, 2008 at 10:45 am Link to this comment
The following passage of an e-mail I just received from the West LA branch of the PDA sums it up:
"To protest Israel's relentless bombing raids on Gaza, LA Jews for Peace asks you to join with them and others in expressing outrage over the hundreds of Palestinians killed and wounded in the latest attacks.
"...the situation is Gaza has been intolerable for a long time. With the full support of the U.S. government, the Israeli blockade has deepened the shortage of food, medicine, fuel, electric power, and commercial goods. The UN Secretary General, the Swiss government, and other groups have called the situation a humanitarian crisis and a violation of the 4th Geneva Convention. It is surely a violation of Jewish and international law.
"The bombings and blockade are not only cruel and inhumane, but also counter-productive in that they fuel the violence and work to undermine efforts to achieve peace through negotiations.
"LA Jews for Peace calls for an end to US military aid to Israel, an end to Israeli raids and Hamas rocket attacks, resumption of shipments of food and medical supplies to the people of Gaza , and admittance of journalists to Gaza to report on the desperate conditions and mounting Palestinian death toll.
"Again, join LA Jews for Peace in a protest Tuesday, Dec. 30, 3-5:30 PM, Westwood Federal Building."Report this
By cann4ing, December 28, 2008 at 10:33 am Link to this comment
Thanks for the link, JS. A companion Haaretz article reveals that the Israeli tactics and strategic planning are quite similar to those which led to the earlier Israeli assault on Lebanon.
"Palestinian sources in Gaza report that 40 targets were destroyed in a span of three to five minutes. This was a massive attack much along the lines of what the Americans termed "shock and awe" during their invasion of Iraq in March 2003. Simultaneous, heavy bombardment of a number of targets on which Israel spent months gathering intelligence. The military "target bank" includes dozens of additional targets linked to Hamas, some of which will certainly come under attack in the coming days.
"Like the U.S. assault on Iraq and the Israeli response to the abduction of IDF reservists Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser at the outset of the Second Lebanon War (the "night of the Fajr missiles," a reference to the IAF destruction of Hezbollah's arsenal of medium-range Fajr missiles), little to no weight was apparently devoted to the question of harming innocent civilians."
But that can be said of Israeli policies in general—"little or no weight" is ever "devoted to the question of harming innocent civilians."Report this
By jackpine savage, December 28, 2008 at 10:17 am Link to this comment
Long-term preparation, careful gathering of information, secret discussions, operational deception and the misleading of the public - all these stood behind the Israel Defense Forces "Cast Lead" operation against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip, which began Saturday morning.
The disinformation effort, according to defense officials, took Hamas by surprise and served to significantly increase the number of its casualties in the strike.
Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas.
What was that about being provoked needlessly by Hamas rocket attacks?Report this
By PatrickHenry, December 28, 2008 at 10:08 am Link to this comment
By ThnkUBush, December 28 at 7:04 am
If you think Egypt, Syria and Lebanon are some of the world leader per capita nations you should study economics alot more.
If it wasn't for Israeli pressure and blockades, Gaza would fare better, however it is not in Israel's interest to have a independent Palestinian state next door with ethnic and religious ties to Arab Israelis at home.
Typical pro-israeli arrogance, blame the other Arab nations for problems Israel created.Report this
By SoD1, December 28, 2008 at 10:01 am Link to this comment
I found it "delightful" to see the People of this rotten World finally waking up to Israel and the U.S. atrocious deceptive ways of war, suppression and ENDANGERING of the entire World Population.
It is more than Time to get SERIOUS and find ALL your Courage you pathetic "We, the People" Peasants. Your all LIFES, your Future, the Future of your Brood and theirs will all solely depend on the Courage you are able to express NOW and the actions you will be able to take.
SoD1Report this
By omop, December 28, 2008 at 9:52 am Link to this comment
These two quotes and an im opion says it all.
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." – Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 in N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1.
"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more." – Ehud Barak, current Israeli Minister of Defense, in the Jerusalem Post, Aug. 30, 2000.
Other Israelis have not been as diplomatic as Ehud in name calling but the word cockroach is a close second. And most Americans tend to admire jewish fingernails over Arabs.Report this
By Virginia777, December 28, 2008 at 9:37 am Link to this comment
The mainstream media is exhibiting the extent of its allegiance to Israel in this latest massacre. It should come as no surprise given the vast amounts of money and power that has been poured into one side (Israel's) of this conflict, but still
for a country that still thinks it has a Free Press
today's "news" graphically proves
our press is not Free at all, and all of America is victim to a perverse propaganda machine.Report this
By thebeerdoctor, December 28, 2008 at 9:23 am Link to this comment
The question of stopping Hamas rocket attacks? Perhaps a way to begin is for Israel to stop stealing land that does not belong to them. The Israeli nation is form times the size of its 1949 armistice. That land was stolen by war and the Israeli government has been disingenuous when it comes to ceasing the settlements on land that is not theirs.
By dihey, December 28, 2008 at 8:19 am Link to this comment
Two minutes ago Mr. Axelrod talking on Meet the Press stated that the Obama Team holds that Mr. Obama is not our President yet! He avoided any statement on the bombing of Gaza. He confirmed that Mr. Obama favors the overthrow of the elected Hamas Government in Gaza. Israel does not have to do anything!
This begins to look like a big fat F for Mr. Obama and two failures out of three. That is unacceptable to use a favorite Obama word.
Incidentally, Meet the Press allowed the Foreign Minister of Israel to talk but did not get any speaker for the other side.Report this
By ThnkUBush, December 28, 2008 at 8:15 am Link to this comment
Regarding the "butchery": You claim the U.S. can "stop it" by pressuring Israel.
What you fail to consider, even in the least, is how to get Hamas to stop firing rockets into South Israel.
The onesided thinking here on TD is both unhelpful and dangerous.Report this
By ThnkUBush, December 28, 2008 at 8:04 am Link to this comment
eileen fleming and others posting here,
You could not be more wrong. Dangerously wrong, in fact.
The West Bank and Gaza are surrounded by some of the worlds richest per capita nations in the world. Arab nations.
Have these nations lifted the Palestinians out of their horrendous poverty? Built schools? Fostered small local and large international business? Built sewage and water treatment plants. Built power plants and an electrical grid? Have these Arab Brothers, who profess to "truly care", done everything they can to help?
The answer to these questions are a resounding NO! Palestinians have been kept in abject poverty by Arab nations who all have the resources to change every life in the West Bank and Gaza.
Who builds the schools in the West Bank and Gaza? U.S.A.. Who pays for the majority of text books? U.S.A.. Who gives the most food and medical aid? U.S.A.. Who brokered a deal with Arafat that would have given the Palestinian people 90% of their demands and a solid road to Statehood? Again, the U.S.A.
Get to know the facts before you all go off half cocked.Report this
By dihey, December 28, 2008 at 7:42 am Link to this comment
Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of this Truthdig posting is that it has engendered the largest number of responses of all that are shown. On other websites the response also dwarfs that to all other news items. It demonstrates that people are concerned.
When I grade Mr. Obama (sorry Cyrena!) on his responses to the two preceding great international crises he gets a passing grade on Mumbai and a failing grade on his adjusted response to South Ossetia ('It is not clear who attacked first and Georgia must become a member of NATO'). Later reports on this crisis have shown that Mr. Obama was factually wrong and quite badly so. It is clear who attacked first.
According to an AP report Mr. Obama has phoned Hillary Clinton this morning about Gaza. I hope he will not flunk this one because two F's out of three tests is alarming in my opinion. If he does not make a statement in the course of today he will get an automatic F for handing in his homework too late.
Mr. Obama's view will count around the entire world because it will give a glimpse on his understanding of the Near- and Middle East.
And please don't give me the lame canard that Mr. Obama is not yet our President. He has been playing Substitute-President with gusto already.Report this
By Verne Arnold, December 28, 2008 at 7:41 am Link to this comment
@ thebeerdoctor, December 28 at 6:12 am;
You're up early and I'm up late; I'll respond in roughly 8 hours when I'm not so tired. I don't agree with your POV. And I'll get back to you about that.Report this
By thebeerdoctor, December 28, 2008 at 7:12 am Link to this comment
In reference to Fadel Abdallah's temporary insanity, I referring to the rather ominous post on Dec. 27, 4:20 pm titled: "My plan to the final solution of the Zionist savagery". Numbers #3 and #7 are for me, examples of insanity.
By Verne Arnold, December 28, 2008 at 6:17 am Link to this comment
@ thebeerdoctor, December 28 at 2:18 am;
Fadel Abdallah's post reveals how even a peaceful person can go slightly insane.
By Allan Gurfinkle, December 28, 2008 at 6:13 am Link to this comment
cyrena writes of "American Jews who do NOT have allegiance to Israel". In fact mainstream American Jewry has complete support for Israel and is quite happy to tell you about it. During Gore's campaign for the presidency, they formed a 'National
This excerpt will tells you what you need to know about the beliefs of mainstream Jews ...
"God created and sustains the universe; God established a covenant with the people Israel, God's revealed word guides Israel to a life of righteousness; and God will ultimately redeem Israel and the whole world."Report this
By Verne Arnold, December 28, 2008 at 4:27 am Link to this comment
Oh, and just to remind the newbies, I used to post as me, then Expat, and now me again. The long term posters know this already, it was never a secret. I'm getting too old to give a shit about anonymity anymore. I hope you all find a modicum of happiness in 2009.Report this
By Verne Arnold, December 28, 2008 at 4:14 am Link to this comment
@ cyrena, December 28 at 2:54 am;
Sorry Cyrena, I was being a bit sarcastic. It is in fact a huge point and furthers America's complicity in the ongoing violations of human rights (worldwide) and continues our growing legacy as a war criminal nation. My rage over the last 8 years is so over the top I can barely contain myself. The worst of all is my utter loss of hope this will be resolved in any good way. If it isn't good for the Palestinians then it's bad for everybody else. Israel doesn't even see it's destroying itself (the same as we are) with the rot from within. We're all characters in Dante's Inferno. Pity, it could have been so beautiful.Report this
By marcus medler, December 28, 2008 at 4:12 am Link to this comment
My question; Why or what keeps American policy so wedded to disaster in the Middle East? My guess is policy makers believe a disrupted region is good for business. I also suspect inertia. The human cost, the embrace of irrationality and the toleration of injustice are not able to counter the inertia. American history is filled with bad domestic policy that supports the riches of the few by rationalizing the misery of the many. We should not be surprised that American international policy follows the same course.Report this
By cyrena, December 28, 2008 at 3:54 am Link to this comment
Verne Arnold,
I don't think it's a minor point at all that Israel is using these weapons illegally, having signed an agreement that they would not. BUT, it may 'seem' minor, if only in comparison to all of the other illegalities.
Anyway, I'm delighted that you mentioned this agreement, because I was planning to post a question earlier, (for cann4ing actually) to see if anybody knew or could direct me to something that could verify that the US does in fact provide these weapons.
I mean, I've been guilty of accepting it as a 'given' that the US provides many of Israel's weapons, if only because I know that we've long provided the economic aid, (to the tune of $3billion a year)and that much at least is verifiable all over the place. But the supply of arms has been less easily verified, at least for me. (maybe I didn't know where to look.)
So I'm going to give it another shot now. But if you know of any where I could find that agreement, or anything else confirming the US gift of weapons to Israel, let me know.
Meantime, that serves to answer my own inquiry in respect to the suggestion from cann4ing, that the US just needs to discontinue all economic and other 'aid' to Israel. I don't know that we can or should expect the Obama Admin to discontinue the economic aid, if only because he's already promised the AIPAC crowd that it would continue. (it's been 60 years).
That doesn't mean he can't change his mind, especially since Israel will continue it's persecution of the Arabs, which has been happening just as long. I'm personally convinced that Obama is very well aware of the 90 UN violations that Israel has committed, (which Brewerstroupe mentioned) because he's on record saying that he doesn't approve of many of Israel's actions. (I read that in a Truthout piece around a year ago, which included his exact words - so I can look it up again if that's helpful to anyone). He's also on record as saying that in terms of the Israel-Palestine Conflict (I agree that it's really a slaughter at this point, and has been the longest circumstance of ethnic cleansing in recorded history) the Palestinians have suffered more than anyone. Of course that was later sort of 'changed' to say something else more acceptable to the Israel lobby, which continues to exert such an overwhelming influence on our own policies.
The same thing goes for the economic aid. Obama may have promised that it would continue, but if the majority of the US population was even AWARE of what we are supplying to Israel in terms of $billions$ and weapons, public pressure could very well force an Obama Administration to withdraw ALL of that, at least until Israel cleans up its act. I don't think it would take much 'convincing', if the American public became more informed of those details, especially considering our own tanked economy, and all that we could do for our own citizens with the money we give to Israel. As Michelle Obama has stated on a few occasions, we need to clean up our own homes first, and that means tending to the needs of our own citizens – the MAJORITY of US!!Report this
By thebeerdoctor, December 28, 2008 at 3:18 am Link to this comment
As usual, anything on this topic brings out the rage and anxiety that even the Israeli apologists must admit to themselves while alone: Is This Not Evil Going On? Use all the intellectual rationalizations at your discretion, but ultimately, violence only begets more violence. Which is exactly what the war industry wants.
By Verne Arnold, December 28, 2008 at 1:57 am Link to this comment
@ Nozferatu;
Great post and right on. Namer is indeed a moron.
I know it's just a wee point; but all of those American weapons the Israelis are using against civilians are specifically being used illegally by Israel. Israel had to sign an agreement they would not/could not use, our jets, helicopters, tanks, or any other U.S. supplied hardware against civilians.
By cyrena, December 28, 2008 at 1:24 am Link to this comment
1 of 2
Your post at the above is superb, (at least I think so) because of the inclusion of so many attributed facts that support your opinion. (This isn't a 'conflict' as much as it is a slaughter). It's critical to note that after encouraging this so-called "Democracy" that the US claims to be spreading and influencing under the Bush-Cheney-Neocon Admin, they rejected the results of the Palestinian democratic elections. Typical Israel, and of course that has been the typical behavior of Israel's Terrorist Twin, the US regime.
• "Over 50% of the cabinet members in the Obama administration and Bush administration are jews. Why? Can't they find they warm blooded Americans who have no ties to Israel? Because I can guarantee that people like Rahm Emanuel don't put the US as a priority you can rest assured."
Now you also mentioned in the same post that NAMER was so full of shit you didn't know where to start, and that he/she was full of hypocritical drivel, and the typical moron who feels that Israel can do no wrong. Now we accept that as personal opinion, and many of us probably even share such personal opinions. (Howard was the worst at this before NAMER came along). But the statement I included above, is really quite different, because of incorrect innuendo, and a created 'statistic' (50% of the Obama and Bush Admin Cabinets are Jews.)
How do you know that? WHO are they? You mention Rahm Emanuel, and of course we know he is Jewish, but he isn't a Cabinet member in the Obama Admin, and you have no substantiation for your assertion that we can 'rest assured' that he won't put the US as a priority. It doesn't MATTER what Rahm Emanuel puts as his own personal Jewish/Israel priorities, (and there's no evidence to date that he has done this in any official US position as Congressman) because he's been selected as Obama's personal Chief of Staff, (NOT a Cabinet position) to carry out Barack Obama's priorities, not HIS!
By cyrena, December 28, 2008 at 1:22 am Link to this comment
2 of 2
Lastly, I have a concern about the general mentality that punishes ALL Jews for the crimes of some… , particularly American Jews who do NOT have the 'allegiance to Israel'. I certainly UNDERSTAND how such sentiments arise, because there's also no denying that Jews in America have a hugely disproportionate influence on our politics, and yeah…they do seem to control the money as well. (or again, a disproportionate number of them, compared to their representative percentage here in the US). But at the end of the day, we do ourselves no good, and actually place ourselves on yet another slippery slope, by targeting ANY race/ethnic or religious group as somehow anti-American, if for no other reason than the fact that there are just as many, (probably more) non-Jews in the current government who are the real ANTI-Americans. (Like Cheney and Bush).
Anyway, those are just thoughts and personal observations, as opposed to criticisms. I'm sure that Obama and his team have in fact been able to come up with several warm blooded Americans to accomplish much of what he has planned. His team had 300,000 responses/applications for the fulfillment of only 3,000 jobs. I have enough confidence in my fellow Americans, as well as the Obama Team, to choose mostly warm blooded Americans to fill them. (and no, I didn't apply – maybe I should have, as a stand-in granny for the girls in case their own grandma wants to take a vacation or something. Imagine going from homeless to my own quarters in the White House!);)
Meantime, I still agree that NAMER is full of shit.Report this
By RoxyFL, December 28, 2008 at 12:10 am Link to this comment
By Nozferatu, December 28, 2008 at 12:06 am Link to this comment
The dominance of the Israeli narrative and of Israeli voices in the US media is one factor that allows Americans to maintain this hypocrisy. Rather than providing comparable information about both sides, Palestinian attacks and weaponry are over-emphasized, and the Israeli government line repeated. Comparative figures and analysis of the overwhelming numbers of Israeli missiles and bombs fired at Gaza and Lebanon,[6] of Israel's vast weaponry, and of the numbers of Palestinians killed, are typically harder to find.
For example, the New York Times, Los Angeles Times and Washington Post, three of the largest and most respected US newspapers, all describe the current crisis as beginning with the capture of an Israeli soldier, erasing history prior to June 25, 2006. Israel's heightened assault on Gaza began with heavy shelling in late March, resulting in the killing of large numbers of Palestinians in Gaza before June 25, including gruesome attacks like the June 9 shelling of a Gaza beach which killed seven members of the family of 12 year-old Huda Al Ghalia.[7]
Over the last three months, those same three newspapers have failed to comment on the recent dramatic disparity between Palestinian and Israeli deaths. During that period, The New York Times is the only one of those three papers to have provided figures comparing the numbers of Palestinians and Israelis killed. The Times did so three times over three months, in just 1-2 sentences each time, with no accompanying analysis of trends.[8] Over the last three months, the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post reported only the figures for Palestinian deaths, six times[9] and two times[10] respectively, again with no analysis. All three papers begin their death counts from June 25, 2006.
It is difficult to imagine that a similarly dramatic increase in the ratio of Israeli to Palestinian deaths could occur without major discussion by the media and the world, or that such lop-sided deaths in another conflict would pass without comment. Despite a Hamas ceasefire, and publicly available data showing that Israel is now carrying out a one-sided assault, Hamas violence remains the focus. Propaganda continues to trump reality, with the active collaboration of the US media. Palestinians are portrayed as terrorists, and Israelis as victims of Palestinian terrorism. There is scarcely a mention international law, or Palestinians' status as a people living under 39 years of Israeli military occupation and subjugation.
Palestinians, however, realize that they are being slaughtered despite the fact that they are not killing Israelis, just as they know that they were encouraged to hold democratic elections and then punished for doing so. Frustrated by the world's hypocrisy and lack of support, and subject to daily Israeli assaults, it is not likely that Palestinians will maintain their unilateral ceasefire forever. Yet if Palestinians do eventually strike back, it's not clear that the world will even register what they are responding to.Report this
By Nozferatu, December 28, 2008 at 12:06 am Link to this comment
Israel's shifting justifications are repeated with little skepticism by the mainstream media. First Israel said it was acting to stop Palestinians from firing homemade Qassam rockets into Israel, rockets that have killed just eight people within Israel over five years. Then Israel said it was responding to Palestinians' capture on June 25, 2006 of a single Israeli soldier, though Israel holds 10,000 Palestinians captive. News reports currently suggest that the ongoing Israeli attacks may jeopardize the soldier's safe return. Now the Israeli government is again playing up Qassam rockets, and arms smuggling into Gaza as justifications.
Israeli reporter Amira Hass put Gaza arms smuggling in perspective, writing in the Israeli Ha'aretz on October 18 that "what exists in Israelis' consciousness is not the millions of cluster bombs ... or the tens of millions of bombs and shells and lethal bullets stored in our arms warehouses and our gun barrels and the bellies of our helicopters and planes. Although the amount of such explosives is measured in the millions of tons, it is the 20 tons of explosives and the few thousand rifles that permeate the Israeli consciousness." Ironically, under the much vilified Hamas-led Palestinian Authority, Palestinians have killed by far the fewest Israelis in any period during this six-year intifada
Despite the fact that they have vastly inferior weapons, are killed in much greater numbers than Israelis, live under Israeli occupation and are having their land taken from them by Israelis, Palestinians are generally portrayed in the US as the aggressor. Ironically, under the much vilified Hamas-led Palestinian Authority, Palestinians have killed by far the fewest Israelis in any period during this six-year intifada—nineteen Israelis over seven months.
Hamas has largely maintained a ceasefire since early 2005, even as Israel and western governments demand that Hamas renounce violence and recognize Israel, and the western media simplistically repeats that Hamas is "committed to the destruction of Israel." In the meantime, Israel is actually destroying the Palestinian people and any hopes for a Palestinian state through heightened violence and land seizure. But the world has been silent about Israeli actions.Report this
By Nozferatu, December 28, 2008 at 12:05 am Link to this comment
At least 19 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli military on Friday November 3, 2006, including two women, and other civilians. No Israelis were killed. Though photos of Friday's Israeli attack on Palestinian women have been widely disseminated, the bigger story is still not being told. These killings are part of a new, longer-term pattern - a dramatic rise in the number of Palestinians killed by the Israeli military since the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority took office seven months ago, despite a continued low number of Israelis killed by Palestinians. Palestinians, already subjected to Israeli military occupation and overwhelming violence, have been killed at a rate of 26 Palestinians for every Israeli killed since Hamas took power on March 29, 2006, and 76 Palestinians per Israeli since July 1. Though the mainstream media still reports on a "conflict" between "two sides", over the last seven months it has simply been a slaughter.
According to casualty figures from the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem,[1] the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA),[2] and press reports for November 1-3,[3] in the period since the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority took office on March 29, 2006 through November 3, 2006, 491 Palestinians were killed by Israelis while 19 Israelis killed by Palestinians, 25.8 Palestinians killed for every Israeli. Since July 1 that ratio has increased to 76.2 Palestinians killed per Israeli, with 381 Palestinians killed versus just five Israelis.
Ratio of Palestinians Killed to Israelis Killed During Current Palestinian Uprising (September 29, 2000 - November 3, 2006) Sources: B'Tselem, UN OCHA, and media reports. B'Tselem's and OCHA's descriptions of the circumstances surrounding these deaths show that approximately half the Palestinians killed during this period were clearly civilians.
The year 2006 has seen by far the most skewed ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed. While no deaths should be accepted, the figures show that the Israeli war machine has shifted into an unprecedented frenzy. Through the entire second Palestinian intifada or uprising which began September 29, 2000, approximately 3.9 Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli killed.[4] The highest previous multi-month ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed during this intifada occurred from March to December 2004 when around 9.5 Palestinians were killed for every Israeli. In the first Palestinian intifada from 1987-92, 5.2 Palestinians were killed for every Israeli.
The increase in Palestinians killed in 2006 reversed the downward trend from 2005, the year with the lowest number of both Palestinian deaths (197), and Israeli deaths (50) during this uprising. In April 2006, with Hamas taking power, Palestinian deaths climbed back to 2004 levels. From July 1 - November 3, 2006, Israel has killed an average of 93 Palestinians per month, the highest monthly average since Israel's reinvasion of the West Bank in March/April, 2002.
In 2006, unable to support the usual claim that it is responding defensively to the killing of Israelis, the Israeli government has offered various unconvincing explanations for the large numbers of Palestinians it is killing. But Israel's intensified violence seems intended to punish Palestinians for voting Hamas to office in democratic elections, and to restore Israeli self-esteem that was damaged by the failure of the war with Lebanon.Report this
By cyrena, December 28, 2008 at 12:02 am Link to this comment
I'm asking for permission from all of you who has been suffering if I could use your postings on Newsvine. I want the world to see the injustice done.
First, I can't speak for "everybody", but from what I believe to be the basic sort of 'rules of publishing' on the Internet, anything posted on this forum automatically becomes the intellectual property of the publisher.
If you read the Truthdig's site's TERMS and CONDITIONS noted just below the comment box, (you have to link to it) then you'll have a better idea of what is and isn't permissible. But I think this clause of the agreement allows for you to do what you've requested here.
"..We respect the right of others to make "fair use" of the materials contained on the Web Site; accordingly, you may from time to time excerpt and use materials set forth on the Web Site, provided, that you must give the original author and Truthdig proper attribution and such use must be for a non-commercial purpose only and not, for example, for re-sale…"
I suspect that the 'attribution' requirement refers to the actual articles that the site publishes, as well as the authors of those articles. It doesn't mean that you have to site the individual posters, (or even obtain permission from us) because when we (as readers and commentators) post to this site, it is with the understanding that our own contributions then become either the property of Truthdig, or are simply covered in general by the Fair Use Doctrine. Our own comments don't enjoy the standard copyright protections, because those are basically handed over to the site that publishes.
Now this is ONLY my own interpretation, based on my read of the Terms and Conditions. That is NOT to say that common decency shouldn't prevail. If you KNOW that a poster is commenting under his or her own name, and you want to utilize something they've written, common courtesy and intellectual integrity requires that you make the correct attributions. But the 'permission' part of that is a given, because the poster has already published it on a public forum. That's the 'permission'. The websites full terms are contained in their "Comment Policy" as well as the Terms and Conditions.
Many years ago, I wrote a paper for a final examination in a standard University course. I was delighted when I got an A on the paper, and an A in the class. My delight was immediately curtailed when I saw my paper published (verbatim) in an issue of "Psychology Today", under a name that I'd never seen before or since. My own name wasn't mentioned a single time, nor was the name of the academic institution to which it had been submitted.
That's blatant plagiarism of course, but that was also an entirely different circumstance/situation.
Anyway, I think you're probably free to spread the word on the sufferings of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis. By now, that's common knowledge in many parts of the world. Sadly, not enough Americans are aware of what is going on there, or that their own funds are paying for it.Report this
By yocf, December 27, 2008 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment
Hamas might have fired few rockets, that usualy don't hit their target. But I cannot understand the fire power that was used to send a message to Hamas. Such power can be only use against a powerfull nation, that has the same fire power. How the US can blame Hamas for that massacre, when I Cannot believe that they have brought it to themseleves. They fired few rockets, but I don't think they inflict that much damages, if they did, we want to see them. Only few days before they open the blockade in Gaza, days later they bombarded the city with every weapon they have. I am glad they didn't use nuclear weapons on the palestinians. Why in the name of God, ours, not theirs they were allowed to have them. Are the palestinians getting ready to acquire the knowledge to have few of them. I wish they had one, they probably will have use on Israel long time ago. And we would'nt have that problem now. But we have that problem. The US should completely stay out of it. Matter of fact, the US should stop helping the israelis, with weapons, money, and anything that will be used to manufacturing more weapons of mass destruction. I heard Israel going to have a ground assault. They will be shooting at anyone that fire at them, Hamas will be shooting at every soldier wearing the israeli uniform. 1 point for Hamas O for Israel. Now The US going to blame Hamas. They can blame anybody they want. The Bush administration is caught in the middle, and the Obama administration also is caugh in the middle, and Israel made that move to try the later one, and see how they will react. If Obama say "Israel has to defend itself" they got away with it. But if Obama say Israel was at fault, no that's not going to happened. They going to get away with it. And I hope for them next time its start raining "Let it be acid". Somebody need to come out with something for them. They will bring a bigger war upon us one day. And I am about to fight for their survival. They have'nt gone anywhere latetly.Report this
By G, December 27, 2008 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment
FREE Streaming TV Shows, Movies, Music (over 6 million digital tracks), Unlimited Games, Money, and College Educations (Stanford, Oxford, Notre Dame and more) http://www.InternetSurfShack.comReport this
By olivebranch, December 27, 2008 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment
Hey Roxy: Be sure to post the comments of Israeli Negev missile victims too…for that fair and balanced look!Report this
By Cthrew, December 27, 2008 at 10:53 pm Link to this comment
desertdude, December 27 at 4:48 pm # sums it all and no amount of excuses and explaining
By RoxyFL, December 27, 2008 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment
I'm asking for permission from all of you who has been suffering if I could use your postings on Newsvine. I want the world to see the injustice done.
By an Israeli, December 27, 2008 at 9:09 pm Link to this comment
It is very sad that Israel is showering Gaza with fire. I am an Israeli and wish the fighting would stop. However, all their targets are military targets controlled by Hammas.
Yasser Arafat was offered East Jerusalem, the west bank and complete control of Gaza and all the illegal settlements, and yet he refused. He refused so that he will be written down in history as the one who did not give in to the Zionists. I doubt the Arab leaders in Gaza actually want peace - all they want is the destruction of Israel, which unlike many of you may think, has a right to exist. Israel is the only country on this planet where Jews are persecuted for their beliefs. It is strange that while Gaza has been holding military demonstrations crying for Israel's decay, Israelis are protesting for "Peace Now" at their prime minister's chambers.
The Arab leaders are so afraid to loose their power that they will channel the peoples anger into this war, without thinking of anything else, using the Jihad as an excuse to send the ignorant to their deaths.
Oh, and where are the Arab nations? Why aren't they helping out their brethren? Maybe it's easy leaving them behind and making sure everyone sees how miserable they are. Israel is the only nation sending them food, supplied and fuel, at the expense of it's own taxpayers!!!
Also, just as a reminder, the attack on Lebanon 2.5 years ago was provoked by Hezbollah that abducted soldiers from Israeli sovereignty - as declared so by the UN. I was there - Israel did not attack civilians, unlike it's neighbors from the North that fired blindly into the cities. Check the footage, the UN reports.
I wish for peace - Israel offered this to the Arabs many times, even at such high costs as giving up all of the conquered territories (Sadat could have told you that). But Arab extremists will never accept Israel's existence nor its right to exist, hence the fighting will sadly go on and on, taking lives of innocents on both sides…Report this
By Mick Holden, December 27, 2008 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment
Israel should have done it a long time ago! It's to bad that the rest of the world dosen't help Israel. The rest of the world Governments just sits back, makes no comments, as thought they are just watching sports on TV when Hamas attacks Israel.Report this
By cann4ing, December 27, 2008 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment
I understand your grief and your anger, Fadel Abdallah, but I don't think further violence is the answer.
The U.S. holds the key to breaking Israel's criminal occupation and actions. All it would take to bring a stop to this insanity would be the threat by the U.S. to cut off all further aid and arms shipments to Israel. All that is lacking is political courage.
We, who see through the Israeli lies. must expose their mendacity to the American public and rally that public to exert unrelenting pressure on Congress and the newly elected President to change course.Report this
By cyrena, December 27, 2008 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment
SoD1, December 27 at 5:54 pm
• "Again, he fears that Israel will end up following in the footsteps of Germany, where "slow processes altered the perception of reality to the degree that insanity became the norm, and then we were exterminated."
Wolin is also careful in his book, "Democracy Incorporated" to make a distinction between Hitler's Germany and the Specter of Inverse Totalitarianism that he is describing in his own work. But, there are without a doubt similarities, what you relay here, is one of them..
INSANITY becomes the NORM!!
I don't know if it's because of "'Slow processes' altering the perception of reality" though I'm sure if I read the book, those 'processes' would be explained. But there's no doubt that insanity DID because the norm, and the exterminations were carried out as a result. Hannah Arndt calls this the "Banality of Evil."
Meantime, (and in all intellectual sincerity) I simply cannot find ANY difference between what Hitler and his Nazis did to the Jews than what the Jews have done to the Arabs. I just really cannot. If there are any differences, they are so minuscule as to escape the naked eye.Report this
By YC, December 27, 2008 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment
If you want to know what the real agenda is in this conflict, take a look at:Report this
By YC, December 27, 2008 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment
Please Dr. Eyad, (if that is your real name). All you have to do to stop this defensive action by the Israelis is to tell you leaders to stop launching rockets.
What nation in the world would tolerate a week long rocket atack and do nothing. Where where your posts when Hamas was attacking Israel? Or when the Taliban attacked the twin towers? Oh! That's right. You were too bussy dancing in the streets and handing candy to your kids in celebration of the Muslims taking over the world!
STOP FIRING ROCKETS AT ISRAEL. It's that simple.Report this
By YC, December 27, 2008 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment
I read in disbelief about the land being "stolen" from the palestinians. Obviously comments by complete ignorants. Let's not forget that Israle withrew from the Gaza strip. You still call stolen land? Let's not forget that Gaza used to be part of Egypt. It NEVER belonged to the Palestinians. During the 6 day war, Israel conquered that land and by all means any conquering nation, especially during self defence, get to keep the conquered lands.
Now Israle made peace with Egypt. How come Egypt did not take Gaza back? Very simple, the don't want it because it's full of Palestinians! Egypt even closed it's borders with Gaza. It wants nothing to do with Gaza because of the Palestinians.
The same goes for the West Bank and Jordan. The West Bank used to be part of Jordan. How come Jordan has not accepted to take it back? Because they are smart. That's why!
So if Gaza and West Bank are stolen properties, then they are stolen from Egypt and Jordan. The perpetrators are the Palestinians!Report this
By Robert, December 27, 2008 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment
December 26-28, 2008
"An Earthquake On Top of Your Head"
By Dr. EYAD AL SERRAJ
"The bombing went on for about 10 minutes. It was like an earthquake on top of your head. The windows were shaking and squeaking. My 10-year-old was terrified, he was jumping from one place to another trying to hide. I held him tight to my chest and tried to give him some security and reassure him. My 12-year-old was panicking and began laughing hysterically, it's not normal. I held her hand and calmed her and told her she would be safe. My wife was panicking. She was running around the apartment looking for somewhere to hide.
We live on the ground floor so we headed to the basement.
Not very far from our home is the headquarters of the police and there was a massive bomb. The chief of police was killed. Two streets away there was another bomb and more people were killed. The office of the president is about one kilometre from our house and it was also bombed.
We went downstairs to the basement and tried to hide ourselves from the shelling. The child of one of our relatives, who lives in our building, finally came home from school. We hadn't been able to find her. All the phone connections were jammed. She came home and she was in a very serious state of shock. She was pale and trembling and she was describing dead bodies in the streets. On her way home she passed Hamas people in uniform and they were dead.
I had been very apprehensive when I woke up this morning. I had some bread, some cheese and a glass of tea. Like all the people in Gaza I felt that something was going on and something very serious. When Israel allowed the delivery of food and fuel [when it ended the blockade of Gaza yesterday] I said to myself and my friends that Israel is really planning a massive strike. They don't want to be blamed for starving the people.
I was sitting in the living room with my family trying to figure out what to do today for lunch, it's our main meal. What to cook and how to cook, whether we have enough to eat. There was no rice so I wanted to have lentil soup and my wife said "No, there's no lentils in the market." I said "What else can we do?" She said "I bought some cans of food." We were discussing this when suddenly the whole thing erupted. Suddenly there was a big explosion.
Right now I feel very anxious about what's going to happen. I'm worried about how many more people are going to die."
(Dr Eyad Al Serraj is a practising psychologist in Gaza City.)
Israel's deceptive tactics & plans are almost always calculated to give itself some good PR from the world community. Israel's massive massacre of the Palestinians was planned to take place after Christmas…the previous day, the Israelis opened the gates to Gaza to let in about 70 trucks to help 1.5 million people. Great Humanity gesture from the Apartheid terrorist state of Israel!
There is NO doubt that the Israelis had the approval nods & support from Cheney, Bush, Rice & many other American zionists. Israel knows that their chances for killing large masses of Palestinians/Arabs will be OK while Cheney and Bush are still in office, after all, that is what happened in Lebanon last year with thousands of innocent people getting killed and massive destruction to the country. Thanks to the American made cluster bombs that were used to kill & murder unarmed people.
Guess what… Americans are paying for Israel's vicious brutality. Israel is using American made fighter jets, missiles, massive bombs on a civilian population & at the same time they have total support from the US…NO MATTER WHAT!
The US administration is quiet & the AIPAC controlled media just KEEPS BLAMING THE VICTIMS of Israel's Nazi horrors.
WHAT A DAMN SHAME…EVERYBODY JUST SITS AND WATCHES FROM THE SIDELINES WHILE WOMEN & CHILDREN ARE BEING SLAUGHTERED BY A RUTHLESS NAZI REGIME.Report this
By P. T., December 27, 2008 at 7:59 pm Link to this comment
No rockets are launched at Israel from the West Bank, and yet Israel's attacks, killings, land theft, settler pogroms, and kidnappings never ceased for a single day during the truce.Report this
By YC, December 27, 2008 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment
Of course the world is enraged! Jewish blood is cheap, so while the Palestinians fired 100+ rockets at Israel, the Israeli government is supposed to do nothing. The world did not pronounce one iota of condemnation against the Palestinians for firing all those rockets.
But when Israel says enough is enough, the whole world is up in arms. How dare the Jews defend themselves?
I read that the Israeli army made thousands of cell phone calls to the Palestinian residents warning them of the impending retaliation. Did any Israeli receive a phone call from Hamas before the rockets were launched towards them?
The Israeli army is doing all it can to minimize civilian casualties. Hamas on the other hand makes it a point to target civilians and to shield themselved behind their own civilian population.
If the Iraelis want to stop the Palestinian rockets, what they should do is set up an automated retaliatory system. When the system detects one rocket being launched from the Palestinians, it immediately fires 5 rockets in that direction. Let's see how long the Palestinians will keep throwing them rockets….Report this
By THE MANGEMEISTER, December 27, 2008 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment
desertdude writes all Muslims are followers of the devil and God will deal with them in due time.In all due respect desertdude your a moron.Report this
By Shift, December 27, 2008 at 7:34 pm Link to this comment
Hamas Vs. Zionism is extremism Vs. extremism. I would prefer that the Palestinians and Israelis end the extremism in their countries internally. That not being the case would it not be better to withdraw economic aid from both countries? Is it not in our best interest to withhold adding fuel to the fire?Report this
By Blackspeare, December 27, 2008 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment
This is it——the big one. Israel had to strike before the inauguration for obvious reasons and it will all be over before the inauguration again for obvious reasons. Israel has a three week time deadline to fatally weaken Hamas and you know what that means!Report this
By SoD1, December 27, 2008 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment
"Let's hope that The Holocaust is Over is widely read and discussed, because it makes arguments that need to be heard and considered by Americans of all persuasions, but especially by those who feel a deep attachment to Israel. The fact that Burg wrote this book also matters greatly. He cannot be easily dismissed as a self-hating Jew or a crank, as he comes from a prominent Israeli family and has been deeply involved in mainstream Israeli politics for much of his adult life. Moreover, he clearly loves Israel.
Burg makes many smart points in his book, but I would like to focus on what I take to be his central arguments. His core message is that Israel is in serious trouble at home and there is good reason to think that things could go horribly wrong in the future. He emphasizes that Israel has changed greatly since 1948. He quotes his mother on this point: "This country is not the country that we built. We founded a different country in 1948, but I don't know where it's disappeared." Israel today, he writes, "is frighteningly similar to the countries we never wanted to resemble." Talking about Israel's shift to the right over time, he makes the eye-popping observation that "Jews and Israelis have become thugs."
Burg makes it clear that he is not equating Israel's past behavior with what happened in Nazi Germany, but he does see disturbing similarities between Israel and "the Germany that preceded Hitler." This raises the obvious question: could Israel end up going on a murderous rampage against the Palestinians? Burg thinks it is possible. He writes, "The notion that this cannot happen to us because our history as persecuted people makes us immune to hatred and racism is very dangerous. A look inside Israel shows that the erosion has begun." He even raises the possibility that there might be a civil war inside Israel, which "will be not a war between members of the Jewish people of different shades of beliefs, but an uncompromising struggle between good people and bad people anywhere."
Burg is aware that many American Jews will dismiss his arguments because they are so at odds with the picture of Israel that they have in their heads. Accordingly, he reminds the reader: "I come from there, and my friends and relatives are still there. I listen to their talk, know their ambitions, and feel their heartbeats. I know where they are headed." And where they might be headed worries him greatly. Again, he fears that Israel will end up following in the footsteps of Germany, where "slow processes altered the perception of reality to the degree that insanity became the norm, and then we were exterminated. It happened in the land of poets and philosophers. There it was possible, and here too, in the land of the prophets. The establishment of a state run by rabbis and generals is not an impossible nightmare. I know how difficult this comparison is, but please open your ears, eyes, and hearts."
Many American Jews think that Israel is in trouble today because of anti-Semitism or because it is surrounded by dangerous adversaries who threaten Israel's very existence. Israelis themselves, Burg reminds us, love to emphasize that "the entire world is against us." He dismisses these wrongheaded beliefs: "Today we are armed to the teeth, better equipped than any other generation in Jewish history. We have a tremendous army, an obsession with security, and the safety net of the United States ... Anti-Semitism seems ridiculous, even innocuous compared with the strength of the Jewish people of today."
For Burg, Israel's troubles are self-inflicted…" (Source: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/09/for_american_readers_the_great )Report this
By SoD1, December 27, 2008 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment
Hmm.. Itis becoming more than evidential to Everyone with a Brain, that Israel has mutated to become the Resemblance of Nazi Germany. Apparently the Progressives, the People with reason and Intelligence are losing the fight over who rules Israel to the fanatic religious zealots grabbing Worldwide for the ultimate Finance Power- as is same in the U.S. and in a growing number of
Be aware of the vile Ones among you Children of David, Sons and Daughters of Issac, they might just be calling upon your very own end and the end of all your People, by now. And this time it might become final and affect All and Everything. This is not the chosen Peoples goals , this are only the Goals some fundamentally fanatic "Rapture-ready" Christians hallucinated for you, who might in Reality wants nothing other but the Jewish People's ery end!
This is simply a warning of the Linearity that is being created right now, which can only end up in Worldwide Wars.
But, It is always alone due to the COWARDICE of the remaining 6.7x Billion dumb down, silent Lambs on this rotten Planet, who are in total FEAR of everything including their very own courage to even realize that all they might have to do is collectively scream " ENOUGH!!! Enough, or we WILL have to reinvent the Guillotine for all you WAR-mongering POWER-hungry SELF-proclaimed "Leaders", again! ALL of them, with NO exception!
Otherwise – we will come to realize all that soon- the Dying and Killing on this Planet caused alone by the conflict of the rotten Israeli (with tons of Aids from greed-driven Big Brother U.S.A) and the rotten Palestinian Children will continue as the Survivors will always run heedlessly for revenge and kill even more of the other "tribes' . Endless Circles of forced Death spans the World and due to what? Some Children playing with Religion and "Power" while they in fact have, None at all!
Homo Sapience is probable the most pathetic and dumbest Being on Earth!
By Howard, December 27, 2008 at 6:23 pm Link to this comment
Continual and unstopping bombing from Hamas is the cause and problem. And why Israel with plenty of warning has finally responded.
No nation on earth would not defend itself with missles raining down on them. Hamas wishes to provoke Israel to attack. They succeded. Any inadvertant casualties in Gaza are Hamas's fault. .Report this
By jackpine savage, December 27, 2008 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment
Well, desertdude, you have half of a point. Your post is the other half of the point.
And the larger point is that both sides continually posit what God thinks, what God wants, what God will do.
Jesus tap-dancin' Christ…it's like nobody ever actually reads the books that they put so much faith in. The more i see, the more i think that the Gnostics were right: the "God" that you all pray to is a flawed creature who made a flawed creation and is too stupid and too vain to see anything except perfection that isn't there.
And, unfortunately, his followers are very much in his image.Report this
By john bausch, December 27, 2008 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment
The state of Israel should be classified as a terrorist state, and dealt with such.Report this
By Thomas Heralds, December 27, 2008 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment
One reason Arabs fight back because Israelis come
Time to pull a lot of our support and
Oh, and at the same time, as a show of
By Verne Arnold, December 27, 2008 at 5:59 pm Link to this comment
If I were an Israeli, and truly believed in the God of Abraham; I would be living in terror at the thought of the coming retribution.Report this
By Fadel Abdallah, December 27, 2008 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment
My Plan to the Final Solution of the Zionist Savagery:
1. Arabs and hopeful Muslims all the world over must recognize that was taken by force cannot be recovered but by force. This is based on the wisdom that "Nothing blunts steel but steel."
By Bboy56, December 27, 2008 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment
Brew: Yup. The Zionists who control the media here do not want that message recieved by the masses. The modern Zionist state is a British concoction upheld by lies, deciet and murder.
By mill, December 27, 2008 at 4:56 pm Link to this comment
More are dead, nothing is solved. Resolve hardens so yet more must die, for how much longer?
How many more fathers, brothers, sisters, mothers?
"until the last drop of blood" say some on both sides
must their view prevail?Report this
By brewerstroupe, December 27, 2008 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment
A page from Gandhi:
"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home. The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French."
By Gmonst, December 27, 2008 at 4:05 pm Link to this comment
The backward looking, blaming posts on here demonstrates why this conflict will not end anytime soon. Too much irrationality, blaming, and belligerence. Too little shame for killing innocents and children. Both sides possess power to change the nature of the conflict in positive ways and both sides are too damn bull-headed to let that happen. The Palestinians would do well to take a page from Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr. and the Israelis would do well to remember their own suffering and oppression in the past and do a little compare and contrast to the current suffering they inflict. I said it before that Israel has far more power in this situation, that cannot be denied. So they will have to take the biggest steps and bear the brunt of the responsibility to ending this peacefully. The US should only provide support to Israel if and when those steps are taken. It should be obvious to both sides that what they have done over the last 50-60 years has not done anything but worsen the situation so it needs to change. Its madness to keep applying the same solutions when they don't ever fix the problem. Until that rationale takes hold this is a hopeless situation.Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment
By diamond, December 27, 2008 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment
Look namer you have all my sympathy: those bloody Arabs breed like rabbits. I can see you're a reasonable man who only wants the ethnic cleansing to be more 'effective'. Obviously you need to get your friends in the CIA to give you some biological weapon that will make the Palestinians sterile. Funny how all fascists hate fecundity- and humanity and anything that isn't exactly like themselves. Driving the Palestinians into a bantustand with a huge wall around it isn't enough for you, driving them into poverty and starvation and shooting their children isn't enough for you either. You want to see them all dead, as all zionists have from the beginning. People like you never realize how completely mentally unbalanced and outrageous you are. I live in hope that one day the Palestinians will get their hands on a nude bomb and all those bemedalled Israeli generals will then be standing there naked before the world with their willies flapping in the desert breeze. Could be a refreshing dose of reality for everyone.Report this
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 3:21 pm Link to this comment
nahida, December 27 at 1:11 pm wrote:
"We can afford to lose many wars; there are millions and millions of Arabs and Muslims that surround the criminal Zionist entity. And you can't afford to lose any war, but when you do (it's inevitable) you lose everything."
Well said, nahida. You have eloquently expressed the belligerent Muslim Arab spirit as you promise to wage an endless war of genocidal intent.Report this
By dihey, December 27, 2008 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment
During WW2 a young Jewish fellow was hiding in our apartment in Amsterdam. When that was betrayed he escaped and made it via Belgium, France, and Spain to the British mandate of Palestine. He still lives on a kibbutz near Tel Aviv. My wife and I planned to visit him early next year. We will now cancel this and any future visit until Israel has at least fully cleared out of the West Bank. At least! We will lose the El Al tickets but so be it. We don't even want their bloody money back.Report this
By brewerstroupe, December 27, 2008 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment
One small point.
By PatrickHenry, December 27, 2008 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment
Dihey, well put.
I strongly disagree on the Israel first, rational thinking second approach the United States takes in foreign relations in the mid east.
Disproportunate response by killing innocent men, women and children by the score doesn't get my vote, neither does intimidative tactics or withholding food, meds, water and electricity which the Israelis do regularly to a largely innocent population.
Even with the rockets and air strikes suicide bombers and day to day crime, Israel and Palestine death rates don't come close to any major U.S. city.Report this
By omop, December 27, 2008 at 2:21 pm Link to this comment
Bravo, bravo, bravo.
And again bravo.
The most articulate human sentiments I have read in years.
God bless.Report this
By thebeerdoctor, December 27, 2008 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment
The religious arguments are pointless. You who believe in these desert Gods to justify violence and injustice will probably cause the destruction of us all. Diamond's comment on this thread drills it like a diamond! It was Senator Barry Goldwater of all people that pointed out that Menachem Begin was a terrorist who became the head of a state.
By brewerstroupe, December 27, 2008 at 2:13 pm Link to this comment
"They do it for the same reason they rejected statehood in 1948"
The day after the plan for partition was announced, Menachim Begin proclaimed:
Is it surprising that the Palestinians, "rejected statehood" (which is not, in fact what they did).
In 1948, the area was fast descending into chaos. Here is your "declaration of a war of annihilation" by the Arab League:
The Governments of the Arab States recognize that the independence of Palestine, which has so far been suppressed by the British Mandate, has become an accomplished fact for the lawful inhabitants of Palestine. They alone, by virtue of their absolute sovereignty, have the right to provide their country with laws and governmental institutions. They alone should exercise the attributes of their independence, through their own means and without any kind of foreign interference, immediately after peace, security, and the rule of law have been restored to the country. At that time the intervention of the Arab states will cease, and the independent State of Palestine will cooperate with the (other member) States of the Arab League in order to bring peace, security and prosperity to this part of the world. The Governments of the Arab States emphasize, on this occasion, what they have already declared before the London Conference and the United Nations, that the only solution of the Palestine problem is the establishment of a unitary Palestinian State, in accordance with democratic principles, whereby its inhabitants will enjoy complete equality before the law, (and whereby) minorities will be assured of all the guarantees recognized in democratic constitutional countries and (whereby) the holy places will be preserved and the rights of access thereto guaranteed.Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 2:11 pm Link to this comment
Zionists thieves
You don't have many choices really, it's one of two:
1) you either carry on with your crimes: lying, killing, stealing, abusing and oppressing an entire people, isolating yourselves further, and sinking deeply into the abyss of immorality; then frantically searching for peace and security, which you will never be able to find as oppressors, aggressors and occupiers.
2) Or you take a good look in the mirror and see what monsters you have become, and admit the crimes they committed against innocent people who had nothing to do with the anti-Semitic crimes of Europe, but they have been made to pay the price of those crimes.
If you go for the first choice, you should blame no one but yourselves for a bleak, desolate, dire, and awful future that awaits you, a future in which you can no longer afford to keep living in constant fear and endless wars, a future where it's only enough for you to lose ONE single war, and it will be over then.
We can afford to lose many wars; there are millions and millions of Arabs and Muslims that surround the criminal Zionist entity. And you can't afford to lose any war, but when you do (it's inevitable) you lose everything.
Then if you start by trying to address and correct those wrongs, and giving us our rights back, the right to live peacefully and move freely with dignity without humiliation and oppression, and with our humanity respected as your equals not your inferiors, and if you give all our refugees the right to return to their villages and towns; then and only then; we'll be able to say to you: "we will forgive you".
We will NOT say as some do; "never forget, never forgive"
We will forgive you.
We have a culture that has hospitality and forgiveness at its heart.
you either make friends with your neighbours, and give them their due rights to get peace and security, or continue to create enemies by your incessant oppression until the inevitable falls upon you
Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment
What is needed at this stage is not dialogue and reconciliation, what is most urgently needed is to STOP ALL your incessant ugly racism, supremacy, aggression and assault, to put a halt to your crimes, and to take a serious look in the mirror as a whole "population" and see what monsters have you become!
By jackpine savage, December 27, 2008 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment
I don't deny Israel anything, nor do i deny the Palestinians anything. Both have a right to exist…as we like to say, to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
But no, we (America) do not have an obligation to defend any nation. Excuse me for my Washingtonian foreign policy beliefs.
We'd still have all sorts of problems in the ME without or unquestioning support for Israel. After all, we have unquestioning support for the House of Saud too. And then there's that small matter of currently occupying a major, ME nation.
My point is that we cannot promote freedom/democracy so long as we choose sides.
And we certainly have no business arming Israel, a nation that sees our "alliance" as all take and no give. Exactly what has the United States gotten in return for its support of Israel?
Oh, and perhaps the Israelis might start by electing governments not dominated by military/intelligence men who only know one way to solve a problem.Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment
Have you ever questioned the morality of your actions as multinationals who gave themselves the liberty to come to our homeland -which I am denied the right to live in- take it over by violence and bloodshed, then settle there on the ruins of the villages you've annihilated, dwelling in the homes of some dispossessed Palestinians, for no other justifications than the dominance of your Jewishness and the fact that we are not Jews?
We are sick and tired of your deception, false claims and the pretence of innocence and victim-hood
We are sick and tired of your orchestrated peace processes and leading-no-where road-mapsReport this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment
Zionist occupiers heed my words;
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment
Hard talk
By brewerstroupe, December 27, 2008 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment
I have long been puzzled by this statistic. Perhaps you might be able to help me understand it.
"123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,050 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. "Report this
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment
brewerstroupe, December 27 at 12:41 pm wrote:
"Why do the Palestinians continue to fire rockets?
On the face of it, the weakest nation in the World firing rockets at one of the strongest would seem to be the action of madmen. So why do it?"
They do it for the same reason they rejected statehood in 1948 and joined Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia in a war of annihilation against Israel. And they make no secret of their dual aims of destroying Jewish sovereignty and establishing an Islamist theocratic Sharia regime in its place.
You are mistaken to call the Arabs of Gaza a nation. They have had their chances to build one for themselves with hundreds of billions of Western dollar hand-outs (which continue, sadly) but always opt for the Jihad. The creepy thing is that there are people like you who buy into that choice. Not enough, thankfully, to help the Arabs realize their genocidal goal, but enough to help perpetuate the slaughter.Report this
By brewerstroupe, December 27, 2008 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment
Why do the Palestinians continue to fire rockets?
On the face of it, the weakest nation in the World firing rockets at one of the strongest would seem to be the action of madmen. So why do it?
For decades, Israel's policy has been to subsidize immigrants to go settle in occupied territory. This is called "creating facts on the ground" and is a War Crime under the Geneva Convention - see:
"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not one single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
Palestinians have only one way to slow this process down and that is to counter the Israeli Government's subsidies and incentives by making settlement appear to be a hazardous enterprise. Hence the rockets. Long-term observers will note that whenever a truce or concession is granted by Israel, the pace of settlement goes up. In this way, Israel uses settlers as an instrument of War.
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment
diamond, December 27 at 12:23 pm wrote:
"'The Hamas perpertrators'? Don't make me laugh."
You're only partially right - I forgot to mention that some of the thousands of missiles fired at Israeli towns were by Islamic Jihad, under the auspices of the ruling Hamas terror regime. A minor technicality, but worth noting, if only to point out that not only is Hamas itself a perpetrator of genocidal crimes, it is also a sponsor.
"Everything that Israel has ever done to the Palestinians has been a form of ethnic cleansing and when the Palestinians fight back in any way they are branded 'terrorists'."
Hysterical and rabid anti-Israel rhetoric. And cheap rhetoric at that. The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was of every Jew, in 2005, when they were forcibly removed from their homes by the Israeli government. Meanwhile, the Arab population of Gaza has been growing steadily, with a current annual growth rate of more than 3.6%, one of the highest in the world. Pretty ineffective 'ethnic cleansing', wouldn't you say?Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
dihey, THANK YOU
==============Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment
The zionist evil fools think that by burying their heads in the sand, and continuing to lie, the world would be coerced into believing their lies!!
How pathetic
have a look at these images which they try to hide from the world, those images only tell a small part of the story:
.Report this
By dihey, December 27, 2008 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment
To Alastair Johnson
Allow me to paraphrase your contribution
The Israelis have nobody to blame but themselves. If you constantly steal the land of your neighbors, indoctrinate your children to hate the Arabs, spend aid money on weaponry, and site settlements in occupied areas, you simply can't complain when you find yourself on the receiving end. You can bleat all you want about "PLO" and "Hamas" and "Iran" but that's entirely irrelevant. The Palestinians are 100% in the right, and have every right to throw the occupiers out using whatever force they deem fit. It is inexcusable for anybody to defend the Israelis just because they believe in a prehistoric concept of some invisible "Jaweh". It is time that the Jewish world denounced Israel and all that support of its vile band of warmongers. Get a grip on reality, and blame those who perpetuate the situation, not those defending themselves against these Jewish lunatics.Report this
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
brewerstroupe, December 27 at 8:04 pm wrote:
"Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored
Orwell Redux, except that Hamas shill Chernus actually believes that crap.
"Israel's answer -
Anything less would be the wrong answer to Arab terror.
Finally, after five years of absorbing thousands of missile strikes against southern Israeli towns and cities (read: perpetual Arab war crimes), not to mention the horrific slaughter of thousands of Jews in cafes, busses, and vegetable markets by Hamas genocide-bombers and death-squads, Israel (belatedly) makes serious moves to defend her civilian population.Report this
By diamond, December 27, 2008 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment
'The Hamas perpertrators'? Don't make me laugh. Everything that Israel has ever done to the Palestinians has been a form of ethnic cleansing and when the Palestinians fight back in any way they are branded 'terrorists'. Israel claims to be a democracy and to believe in democracy but when Hamas was elected to government they refused to recognize their legitimacy and said that 'terrorists' couldn't form government. I can't see why: many of Israel's most prominent leaders were terrorists. Menachem Begin for example and Barak and Sharon and so on. The truth is that Israel is a terrorist state so they have no credibility at all on that issue. On the 4th April 1948 an Irgun attack on the village of Deir Yassin led by Menachem Begin resulted in the massacre of 250 Arabs. Begin was a future Prime Minister of Israel. No one said being a terrorist meant he couldn't lead the government of Israel. In 1953 in an Israeli settlement a bomb was thrown into a house, killing a mother and two young children. In a planned reprisal raid, over 200 Israeli soldiers led by a young officer named Ariel Sharon attacked Kibya, a village over the Jordanian border with mortars and machine guns, blowing up forty houses and killing 53 villagers. These kinds of attacks and revenge killings have never stopped since 1953 and since then Israel has slowly taken most of the land that was once Palestine.
Two terror groups operated in Palestine prior to the founding of the Jewish state. The Haganah was more or less the military wing of the Labour party while Irgun Zveil Leumi was made up of more extreme elements of zionism. Irgun did the dirty work. They blew up arsenals and trains, civilian centres, the King David Hotel. They killed British prisoners and massacred entire villages of Arabs and bulldozed their houses. To call Hamas 'terrorists' is the standard ploy but coming from people who are terrorists themselves it has little force outside of the bubble occupied by the Israeli military state apparatus and the neo cons and those babbling, dancing, so-called Christian fools who think Jesus is returning to Israel (or something). Before Hamas it was Arafat and the PLO and if Hamas was removed it would be some other hate figure or some other group used to frighten Israelis into voting for a continuation of the violence. Hamas (or something like them) is necessary to justify Israel's treatment of Palestinian civilians - starving them, cutting off electricity and gasoline supplies, walling them into a concentration camp in Gaza and so on. And America is picking up the tab, as it always has. Israel's barbarism is funded by US taxpayers, whether they like it or not.Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 1:23 pm Link to this comment
The Zionist entity was established by terror, maintained by terror, and can only be sustained with using terror:
Watching this documentary (even though it's not new) is must in order to comprehend the horrific and barbaric methods that led to the establishment of this terrorist entity.
It refers to the destruction of three Palestinian villages out of a total of 531 that were utterly destroyed and ethnically cleansed.
My own village Beit Iksa was half-destroyed; the shattered ruins of the beautiful sad houses are still there for all to see.
Our neighbouring villages of Lifta, and Deir Yassin were completely destroyed and ethnically cleansed.
The ruins of these villages are a testimony against the barbarity, gruesome, and monstrous uncivilized behaviour of Jewish terrorism manifested in the Zionist ideology.
As a child I remember standing for hours watching the stone-cutters craftsmen in my village chiselling away stones, carving them one by one, to be used to build new homes.
These stones were cut with love, and shaped individually with utmost respect to land and nature, the Palestinian homes look like an organic feature in the land, they blend in beautifully, while the Zionists colonies appear as a cancerous eye-sore, an unsightly harsh cluster of offensive and aggressive buildings.
The crimes still continues, plans to wipe Lifta utterly and build new Jewish luxury homes are on the way, albeit, there is a campaign to try to halt this crime.
http://www.zochrot.org/index.php?id=171Report this
By brewerstroupe, December 27, 2008 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment
Another Hamas Peace Plan Ignored
As Yousef explained, a hudna is "a period of nonwar but only partial resolution of a conflict." It "extends beyond the Western concept of a cease-fire and obliges the parties to use the period to seek a permanent, nonviolent resolution to their differences." A hudna "affords the opportunity to humanize one's opponents and understand their position with the goal of resolving the intertribal or international dispute."
"This offer of hudna is no ruse, as some assert, to strengthen our military machine," Yousef pleaded. And he offered several reasons to believe it: "A hudna is recognized in Islamic jurisprudence as a legitimate and binding contract. . It goes back to the Koran itself. . When Hamas gives its word to an international agreement, it does so in the name of God and will therefore keep its word. Hamas has honored its previous cease-fires, as Israelis grudgingly note with the oft-heard words, 'At least with Hamas they mean what they say.'"
Israel's answer -
BOOOOOMReport this
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment
Russian Paul, December 27 at 11:22 am wrote
"When Hamas attacks Israel, "the blood of Gaza is on their hands and their hands alone," but when Israel attacks and kills over 150 people IN GAZA, they are "defending themselves."
Correct. Were Hamas to cease trying to slaughter Jews, there would be no need for Israel to fight back. The people of Gaza are ultimately responsible for the choice they made in Hamas. Through Hamas they have chosen unending war against the civilians of Israel (and by extension the very existence of Israel). You frame your question in moral terms but your failure is your implicit denial of the Jews' right to collective defense of their lives and their country. What would you have them do, today, while missiles fired by Hamas rain down across southern Israel? Are you really unaware of what Hamas is, what they represent, and what their stated aim is? It astounds me how naive (or willfully ignorant) the denizens of the far left are.
"Your words."
Absolutely, and proudly written, as well. The far left is shamefully silent on the crimes against the people of Israel. Actually, it's worse than silent - it is vocally complicit in propagating the demonization of Israel and the right of her citizens to live peacefully in their own land.
"Do you really feel nothing for the Palestinians?"
Quite the opposite - I am immensely saddened at the loss of innocent lies in Gaza. But it would be immoral to use the tragedy of the Gazan Arabs' choice and actions to deny Jews the right to defend themselves. Would you have the Jews lie down and wait for Hamas to kill them? Because that's what Hamas has been doing all along, if you haven't noticed…............Report this
By omop, December 27, 2008 at 12:58 pm Link to this comment
Most Americans have been turning a blind eye as to what the Israelis have been doing to the Palestenians since Golda was PM/
For you all's information read and decide.
Wednesday, 24 December 2008
Golda Meir commended Mr Winters for his contribution to Israel's survival
BBC web page.Report this
By Gmonst, December 27, 2008 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment
I have to say that I think Jackpine Savage is right. Both sides of this conflict act out of the mentality of children. Neither side looks good, or justified from my perspective. I don't understand why countries have to be for just one religion or the other. I don't understand why Muslims and Jews cannot both be part of one country in Peace. I wish the Palestinian's could understand that if they just stopped lobbing tiny, ineffective home-made rockets into Israel it would help their cause tremendously by taking away all of Israel's moral standing for their actions toward the Palestinians, which have not been kind. I also wish that Israelis would recognize that if they made Palestinians full citizens of Israel, along with allowing them to be part of Israeli politics, or let them have their land without settlements, the Palestinian problem would disappear. Unfortunately neither side is willing to concede even slightly to really end this. The United States helps one side out completely and makes this is into a ludicrously lop-sided fight. It doesn't matter anymore who threw the first stone or who was originally right. The responsibility is now on both sides to grow up and stop this needless bloodshed. In my view the Israelis clearly hold more power and in the end will have to take the biggest steps to end this conflict by ending the siege and allowing Palestinians some human dignity and perhaps equality under Israeli law. The Palestinians have to stop seeing their only power in violence and see that starting a non-violent resistance movement is the most powerful move they can make, it takes away all of Israels moral justification for their actions. That's just how this one complete outsider sees the situation.Report this
By brewerstroupe, December 27, 2008 at 12:51 pm Link to this comment
Before this latest outrage the score was:
Think about it.Report this
By PatrickHenry, December 27, 2008 at 12:45 pm Link to this comment
Using the Israeli method of diplomacy, America would have laid waste to all the villages in Mexico which had illegals cross the border and commit acts of violence against Americans.Report this
By nahida, December 27, 2008 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment
I would love to write poetry about love,
I would love to close my eyes and see children smiling
There is a knife in my heart
I am hurting
I am being slaughtered
Humanity, where are you?
I am here
Humanity, where are you?
By godistwaddle, December 27, 2008 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment
The Jewish population in the Palestine Mandate after World War One was approximately 19% of the population of the area. To claim Israel dates from time immemorial suggests that any dispossessed people, no matter how long ago dispossessed, have the right to move back in and dispossess those who have lived there for centuries.Report this
By Russian Paul, December 27, 2008 at 12:22 pm Link to this comment
Namer - When Hamas attacks Israel, "the blood of Gaza is on their hands and their hands alone," but when Israel attacks and kills over 150 people IN GAZA, they are "defending themselves." Your words. Do you really feel nothing for the Palestinians?Report this
By Virginia777, December 27, 2008 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment
This is crazy:
"If the Palestinians want to stop this, all they have to do is eradicate the Hamas perpetrators."
You are NEVER going to end violence by more violence. If Hamas is eradicated, another group will spring up overnight.
This senseless warfare, will do nothing more than guarantee more violence.
This is horrible enough in itself, but the fact that the U.S. is supporting and paying for it
is unacceptable!!Report this
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 11:54 am Link to this comment
omop, December 27 at 10:43 am wrote:
"namer posted;
" And shame on you for turning a blind eye to the crimes of the Gazan Arabs and to the suffering of the Israeli people."
Believe it or not namer if you can turn a blind eye to the crimes of the Israelis others can and have a right to turn their blind eye or anybody's blind eye.
Your rights do not supercede mine or anybody else's cappice."
What compels you to deny the right the Jews of Israel to defend their lives against external terror attacks, and to call that a crime? That's just twisted, not to mentioned bigoted, unfair, unrealistic, and immoral.Report this
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 11:47 am Link to this comment
omop, December 27 at 10:13 am wrote:
"To namer:
If you can turn a blind eye on the Palestenians?Gazans other humans like you can turn a blind eye on anyone they please."
I don't turn a blind eye towards anyone in distress. You cannot infer that from anything I wrote. You can, however, infer that the people of Gaza made choices, and those choices have led them to their current situation - a war of their making has come back upon them. The war they make is agains the Jewish civilians of Israel. You would have the Israelis lay down and die. Today, finally, after thousands of missiles fired for no reason other than to slaughter innocent Jewish lives they are refusing to do die for fool like you, omop; they are defending themselves. I cannot and will not deny them that basic human right. The shame is that you do. You would do better to direct your outrage at Hamas for making war in the first place, and from doing so from densely populated areas. The blood of Gaza is on their hands and their hands alone. And that is the real tragedy.Report this
By omop, December 27, 2008 at 11:43 am Link to this comment
namer posted;
" And shame on you for turning a blind eye to the crimes of the Gazan Arabs and to the suffering of the Israeli people."
Your rights do not supercede mine or anybody else's cappice.Report this
By elianita55, December 27, 2008 at 11:40 am Link to this comment
Arab countries have not nearly been vocal enough in their diplomatic efforts in the Middle East.
Fear of the Hamas model drives much of this silence. It is especially prominent in Egypt, where the officially banned opposition party, the Muslim Brotherhood, poses a real threat to the U.S.-backed Mubarak leadership.
Yet we need Egypt's leadership and political clout with other Arab countries in order to find a durable solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine.
More on this at http://www.ilpodesta.org/2008/12/egypts-dilemma.htmlReport this
By namer, December 27, 2008 at 11:39 am Link to this comment
jackpine savage, December 27 at 10:23 am wrote:
"What Israel does is Israel's choice, be it right or wrong/good or bad. However, that we - Americans - basically fund this behavior is another issue."
On the face of it you don't deny outright the Israelis the same right of any sovereign people to defend themselves against terror attacks, but the rest of your post proceeds to delegitimize this country's genuine interest (and moral obligation) to support a free people in their own land trying to survive. That's the American way, and that's why most Americans disagree with you. Your assumption that were it not for our support of Israel we would have no problems from the Middle East is demonstrable nonsense. I'm proud that our fundamental and long-standing foreign policy objectives include supporting allies in their times of need. Popularity is not now nor should it ever be a substitute for morality. We should never abandon good people to the wolves. It's a shame you seem to believe otherwise.Report this
By jackpine savage, December 27, 2008 at 11:23 am Link to this comment
What Israel does is Israel's choice, be it right or wrong/good or bad. However, that we - Americans - basically fund this behavior is another issue.
We don't really have any special relationship with Israel. It has spied on us more than any other nation…including the Soviet Union. It pays absolutely no mind to our needs in the region, having decided that its needs are the same as our needs. And our "special" relationship has basically poisoned any chance of us acting in a positive manner within the ME.
Frankly, i'm tired of being dragged into the battles that others fight by choice. Yes, my anger is mostly directed at those who pretend to represent me. But it is also clear that neither side of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is willing to grow up and act like adults.
Sorry, but i don't feel sorry for Israelis and i don't feel particularly sorry for the Palestinians (except that they must fight an overmatched opponent).
I try to be understanding of the Semitic idiocy of religion, but it is difficult. I really don't care what your book says about homelands and God's will, nor do i particularly care what their book says about the same topic. The books are no excuse for acting like children…who unfortunately have the ability to kill and maim in large numbers.
See, i'm not taking sides…i think both sides are beyond stupid. Unfortunately, i am forced to be on one side by the action of my tax dollars…and the side that i'm on probably would not be able to throw its weight around without those tax dollars. That's the rub. I paid for this bombing whether i wanted to or not…and you expect me to cheer it on.
Holy Land my ass. It looks more like a den of inequity that God (if He really existed) would have turned to dust by fire and brimstone a long time ago.Report this
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Dr. Srinivasan Pillay MD
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Dr. Srinivasan Pillay, MD is a Doctor primarily located in Belmont, MA. He has 20 years of experience. His specialties include Psychiatry and Neurology. Dr. Pillay is affiliated with Massachusetts General Hospital, Newton-Wellesley Hospital and McLean Hospital. He speaks English.
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Birchfield Soul Night (Widnes, Cheshire)
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The Birchfield Soul Night is now firmly back on the 4th Friday of the month.
After a couple of months with 'double bookings' our regulars (and hopefully new visitors) will be confident in the knowledge that we'll be spinning the very best in Northern Soul, Motown & R 'n' B on the 4th Friday every month.
Please join us on Friday 28th August when Dave, Steve & Chris will be behind the decks playing a cross section of tunes ranging from those Club Classics you love to those rare sounds you demand .
We hope you see you all at The Birchfield on 28th August.
Birchfield Sports & Social Club
Birchfield Road
Directions are:
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Take A57 (signposted Warrington / Cronton)
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Could How You Self-Identify Affect Your Finances?
This post may contain affiliate links. Please read my disclosure page for more info.
My friend Dave and I recently saw the movie The Spy starring Melissa McCarthy. Melissa plays a CIA Agent who works as an analyst, but has never actually worked in the field. When an opportunity comes up to go into the field, no one can believe she is really qualified, because she is kind of timid and "doesn't really look like your typical Agent."
It was actually a pretty funny film, but there was one tiny thing that kind of bugged me.
On the way home we discussed the movie. I said that although I love Melissa, I get kind of sad that she is always playing the frumpy character who gets kicked around in life a bit. Like if you are not "Hollywood hot" in the film, then somehow you are playing kind of a low life. My thought was that the more Hollywood makes these films, the more we perpetuate stereotypes of overweight, non-smokin' hot women. Meaning, why can't Melissa play just a woman character? Why does she always have to be making fun of herself and the way she looks? Does doing so model unhealthy behavior, eating or otherwise, for others to follow?
Dave on the other hand thought of it completely different. He thinks it's great Hollywood is bringing to light these subjects, because after all, in the end her character proved everyone wrong and she totally kicked ass. I seriously don't think I was giving away any plot spoilers by saying that. 🙂
He mentioned Amy Schumer's comedy, and how she is always creating skits that make fun of Hollywood stereotypes and women stereotypes, like how if you're a woman over a certain age in Hollywood you're "undatable (they use a more R rated word)." Do we really need to point out and say out loud that women of a certain age are "undatable," or are we just bringing to light what is really true as far as stereotypes? For the record, I love Amy's work.
I say all this because I've always been interested in psychology, and how our self-talk impacts our lives either positively or negatively.
I have a friend who is constantly talking about how she is carrying an extra 20 pounds and wants to lose the weight. I get having a one on one conversation about it, but she brings it up at dinner with friends, and pretty much every single time I see her. Now instead of seeing someone who is pretty and whose weight I hardly noticed, I can't help but be focused on that, and feeling uncomfortable about it as well, because what am I supposed to say?
I wonder at what point she has said that so many times to herself that she actually now takes on the identity of someone who has 20 extra pounds on their frame.
Conversely, what if she said something more along the lines of, "I'm feeling really good but I'm always working towards living a more healthy life." In a way she is acknowledging she has some work to do, but also being a little kinder to herself as well, and making people at the dinner table feel less awkward.
So What does this have to do with personal finance?
I think a lot. Are you always telling yourself, friends, and family, "I can't because I'm broke." Or, "I feel like I'm never going to get out of debt!" Do you constantly reinforce a negative state you don't want to be in, and call attention to it outwardly?
I think you always need to choose your words carefully when you self-talk, because after awhile, you become exactly who you say you are.
If you think more like Dave, saying it as is brings to light the truth. For instance if you say you are broke, then you are honestly acknowledging where you are today and not sugar coating it. And not trying to pretend to be any different than what you are.
I guess like many things there is a compromise in there somewhere, but I'm curious to know your thoughts.
Do you think you should positively spin something negative you might be going through, or just flat out tell it like it is? Do you see a compromise in there somewhere? How do you talk about finances? Do you usually complain about how you have no money or focus on what you do have or have already accomplished?
Tonya Stumphauzer
Latest posts by Tonya Stumphauzer (see all)
- If I Didn't Care About Frugality, Here's What I Would Buy - June 24, 2015
- How Saying 'Yes' Changed My Life - June 15, 2015
- Could How You Self-Identify Affect Your Finances? - June 10, 2015