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The Tingler
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|The Tingler
Pressbook ad for The Tingler
|Directed by
|William Castle
|Produced by
|William Castle
|Written by
|Robb White
|Vincent Price
Judith Evelyn
Darryl Hickman
Patricia Cutts
Philip Coolidge
|Music by
|Von Dexter
|Wilfred M. Cline
|Edited by
|Chester W. Schaeffer
|Distributed by
|Columbia Pictures
Release date
Running time
|82 minutes
|United States
The Tingler is a 1959 horror-thriller film produced and directed by William Castle. It is the third of five collaborations between Castle and writer Robb White, and stars Vincent Price, Darryl Hickman, Patricia Cutts, Pamela Lincoln, Philip Coolidge, and Judith Evelyn.
The film tells the story of a scientist who discovers a parasite in human beings, called a "Tingler", which feeds on fear. The creature earned its name by making the spine of its host "tingle" when the host is frightened. In line with other Castle horror films, including the 1958 Macabre and 1959 House on Haunted Hill, Castle used gimmicks to sell the film. The Tingler remains most well known for a gimmick called "Percepto!", vibrating devices in some theater chairs which activated with the onscreen action.
The Tingler received mixed reviews and is generally considered a camp cult classic.[1][2][3]
A pathologist, Dr. Warren Chapin (Price), discovers that the tingling of the spine in states of extreme fear is due to the growth of a creature that every human being seems to have, called a "Tingler", a parasite attached to the human spine. It curls up, feeds and grows stronger when its host is afraid, effectively crushing the person's spine if curled up long enough. The host can weaken the creature and stop its curling by screaming.
Movie theater owner Oliver Higgins (Coolidge), who shows exclusively silent films, is an acquaintance of Dr. Chapin. Higgins's wife Martha (Evelyn), who is deaf and mute, dies of fright after weird, apparently supernatural events have occurred in her room. During her autopsy, Chapin removes the Tingler from her spine.
After they have contained the Tingler and return to Higgins' house, it is revealed that Higgins is the murderer; he frightened his wife to death knowing that she could not scream because she was mute. The centipede-like creature eventually breaks free from the container that held it in and is released into the theater where the deaf mute woman ran before she died. Chapin wishes not to tell anyone, knowing it would start a panic. The Tingler latches onto a woman's leg, and she screams until it releases its grip. Chapin controls the situation by shutting off the lights and telling everyone in the theater to scream. When the Tingler has left the showing room, they resume the movie and go to the projection room where they find the Tingler and capture it.
Guessing that the only way to neutralize the Tingler is to reinsert it inside Martha's body, Chapin does so. After he leaves, Higgins, who has admitted his guilt to Chapin, is alone in the room. As if by supernatural forces, the door slams shut and locks itself and the window closes, echoing what happened just before Martha was frightened to death. The Tingler causes the body of Martha to rise from the bed, staring at her husband. Higgins is so terrified that he is unable to scream. The screen fades, and there is the sound of someone (presumably Higgins) falling, either in a faint or dead. Amidst the dark screen, Dr. Chapin's voice says to the audience, "Ladies and gentlemen, just a word of warning. If any of you are not convinced that you have a Tingler of your own, the next time you are frightened in the dark... don't scream," and the film ends.
Film prologue[edit]
Much in the way of Universal's Frankenstein (1931), William Castle opened the film with an on-screen warning to the audience:
- "I am William Castle, the director of the motion picture you are about to see. I feel obligated to warn you that some of the sensations—some of the physical reactions which the actors on the screen will feel—will also be experienced, for the first time in motion picture history, by certain members of this audience. I say 'certain members' because some people are more sensitive to these mysterious electronic impulses than others. These unfortunate, sensitive people will at times feel a strange, tingling sensation; other people will feel it less strongly. But don't be alarmed—you can protect yourself. At any time you are conscious of a tingling sensation, you may obtain immediate relief by screaming. Don't be embarrassed about opening your mouth and letting rip with all you've got, because the person in the seat right next to you will probably be screaming too. And remember—a scream at the right time may save your life."
- Vincent Price as Dr. Warren Chapin
- Judith Evelyn as Mrs. Martha Ryerson Higgins
- Darryl Hickman as Dave Morris
- Patricia Cutts as Isabel Stevens Chapin
- Pamela Lincoln as Lucy Stevens
- Philip Coolidge as Oliver "Ollie" Higgins
The financial success of House on Haunted Hill was reason enough for Columbia to produce The Tingler. Vincent Price was on board again, with Darryl Hickman playing his assistant and newcomer Pamela Lincoln playing his sister-in-law. Patricia Cutts played Price's beautiful, unfaithful wife, Isabel.
Director William Castle was never one to miss an opportunity for publicity. He convinced Hickman, who was Lincoln's real-life fiancé, to join the cast as her fiancé in the film. At first Hickman declined, but agreed after Castle convinced him it would help Lincoln's career. According to Hickman, Castle did such a good job of convincing him it would help Lincoln that he worked for no salary. Hickman, who was 5'10", was required to wear lifts for the scenes with 6'4" Vincent Price to offset the disparity of their heights.
Judith Evelyn was hired at the request of Price, who had worked with her on Broadway. She also received attention in another prominent "non-speaking role" as the suicidal "Miss Lonelyhearts" in Hitchcock's Rear Window (1954). Dal McKennon, the projectionist (uncredited in the film), had a successful career as the voice of many screen and TV characters, including "Buzz Buzzard" in the Woody Woodpecker cartoons and "Gumby" in the TV clay animation series. Jack Dusick, makeup artist for The Tingler, was the father of singer/actress Michele Lee.
Robb White, the story author, said he was inspired to write The Tingler after seeing one of the rubber worms that makeup artist Dusick designed for House on Haunted Hill. There are, however, no rubber worms in House on Haunted Hill. In an interview Robb White said this movie was partly inspired by his encounter with a centipede while living in the British Virgin Islands.[citation needed]
White had experimented with LSD at UCLA after hearing about it from Aldous Huxley and decided to work it into the script.[citation needed] It is the first depiction of LSD use in a major motion picture. At the time the drug was legal. The title of the book Vincent Price's character reads before taking LSD — Fright Effects Induced by Injection of Lysergic Acid LSD25 — is printed on the back of the book, not the front. This was done for a better shot for the expositional title of the book explaining the effects of LSD to the audience.
The Tingler was Price's second and final film with Castle and the fifth performance that would ultimately brand him as "The Master of Menace".
The movie playing in the theater when the Tingler escapes was the 1921 silent film Tol'able David.
A subplot of the film involves the fates of a movie theater specializing in silent films and its owners. According to Kevin Heffernan, this reflects the conditions of the movie theater industry in the late 1950s. There were many discount theaters trying to establish their own market niche by showing older films. For the owners of these small theaters it was a thankless and poorly paid job, as described in the trade journals of this period. When Ollie describes at length the work load involved in cleaning the building, he echoes real-life complaints.[4] This provides the motive for his murder, as he is trying to escape a hopeless life.[4]
Another subplot involves dysfunctional married lives. Most prominent is that of Warren to Isabelle, who is clearly unfaithful to him. She stays out until the early hours of the morning and is seen giving her lover a farewell kiss. In another scene, Warren enters through the front door of his house and hears the back door slam. He then discovers two used glasses of wine and forgotten tie clip.[5] In an argument between them, she does not deny her unfaithfulness but Isabelle counters by accusing her husband of neglecting her. While spending so many hours in his laboratory, he has lost contact with living people leaving her no choice but to seek human affection elsewhere.[5] The marriage of Ollie and Martha is also an unhappy one. He claims that Martha would have killed him if she could.[5]
Martha is depicted as a woman with a whole range of obsessive and phobic traits. She even communicates in a neurotic pantomime. Tim Lucas has described her as a silent film character in a sound film.[4] The idea of a terrified, mute woman was not fully original. Accorning to Heffernan, it was probably inspired by the The Spiral Staircase (1946).[4]
The scene with the LSD trip offers a display of "stylized and exaggerated performance". The eyes of Warren shift from side to side, gazing suspiciously at his environment, while describing feelings of unease and apprehension. He loosens his tie, when he thinks himself unable to breathe. He opens a window while insisting that it is nailed shut. He sees a hanging skeleton as a moving figure, and describes the walls of the room as closing in on him. Finally he visibly struggles with the urge to scream, and succumbs to it.[4]
The death scene of Martha is a highlight for the film. The woman wakes with a start within her apartment. Around her the lights flicker on and off, a rocking chair moves on its own and a door closes by itself. Martha staggers towards the other bed of the room, where a sheet is steering. She rips off the sheet and a corpse-like figure emerges from the bed. It wields a machete, causing her to escape towards another room.[4] Again the lights go on and off. A hairy hand appears and throws a hatchet. It misses Martha but strikes the table next to her. The bathroom door opens on its own and Martha flees into the darkened room. She turns on the lights and sees red blood flowing from the faucet. Red in an otherwise monochrome shot. The bathtub is also filled with blood and from it emerges a hand. The medicine cabinet opens to reveal a death certificate for Martha, the cause of death is fright. Seeing this she collapses, scared to death.[4]
The final scenes involve a Tingler unleashed in the movie theater, while the audience watches Tol'able David (1921). A young woman escapes the unwanted advances of her boyfriend and is targeted. Her screams in the film were co-ordinated with screams in the movie theater where The Tingler debuted. In the real life theater, a woman screamed and then pretended to faint; she was then taken away in a stretcher, all part of the show arranged by Castle.[4] The image of the film goes dark. From the screen, the voice of Vincent Price speaks of the fainted lady and asks the rest of the audience to remain seated. The film-within-a-film resumes and is interrupted again. The voice of Price explains that the Tingler is loose and asks the audience to scream. This was the signal for Percepto to be activated. The voices of scared patrons are heard from the screen. They are replaced by the voice of Price, who explains that the Tingler is paralyzed and the danger is over. At this point the film resumes its normal format, which is used for its epilogue.[4]
The epilogue ends with the death scene of Ollie. Having failed to kill Warren, he is left alone with the corpse of his wife. The bedroom door closes on its own and the corpse rises from the bed. Ollie is scared to death and the scene with the sound of his body collapsing. The voice of Price can once again be heard, giving a snide warning.[4]
William Castle was famous for his movie gimmicks, and The Tingler featured one of his best: "Percepto!". Previously, he had offered a $1,000 life insurance policy against "Death by Fright" for Macabre (1958) and sent a skeleton flying above the audiences' heads in the auditorium in House on Haunted Hill (1959).
Percepto: "Scream for your lives!"[edit]
"Percepto!" was a gimmick where Castle attached electrical "buzzers" to the underside of some seats in theaters where The Tingler was screened.[6] The buzzers were small surplus airplane wing deicing motors left from World War II. The cost of this equipment added $250,000 to the film's budget. It was used predominantly in larger theaters.
During the climax of the film, The Tingler was depicted escaping into a movie theater. On screen, the projected film appeared to break as the silhouette of the Tingler moved across the projection beam. The film went black, all lights in the auditorium (except fire exit signs) went off, and Vincent Price's voice warned the audience "Ladies and gentlemen, please do not panic. But scream! Scream for your lives! The Tingler is loose in this theater!"[7] This cued the theater projectionist to activate the buzzers, giving some audience members an unexpected jolt, followed by a highly visible physical reaction.
An alternate warning was recorded for drive-in theaters; this warning advised the audience the Tingler was loose in the drive-in. Castle's voice was substituted for Price's in this version.[8]
William Castle's autobiography Step Right Up!: I'm Gonna Scare the Pants off America erroneously stated that "Percepto!" delivered electric shocks to the theater seats.[9]
Two Joe Dante films contain scenes which reference the "Percepto!" gimmick: Gremlins 2: The New Batch (1990) and Matinee (1993).
This gimmick was also lampooned in one of the films-within-a-film in the thriller movie Popcorn (1991), where the feature was called "shock-o-scope."
Fainting customers and medical assistance[edit]
To enhance the climax even more, Castle hired fake "screamers and fainters" planted in the audience.[6] There were fake nurses stationed in the foyer and an ambulance outside of the theater. The "fainters" would be carried out on a gurney and whisked away in the ambulance, to return for the next showing.
The "Bloody Bathtub" scene[edit]
Although The Tingler was filmed in black-and-white, a short color sequence was spliced into the film. It showed a sink (in black-and-white) with bright red "blood" flowing from the taps and a black-and-white Judith Evelyn watching a bloody red hand rising from a bathtub filled with bright red "blood". Castle used color film for the effect. The scene was accomplished by painting the set white, black, and gray and applying gray makeup to the actress to simulate monochrome.[10]
|This section needs expansion. You can help by adding to it. (July 2015)
Reviews of The Tingler were mixed, though praised for its camp qualities, with Time Out London calling the plot "ingeniously ludicrous".[11] Lyz Kingsley of And You Call Yourself a Scientist! pointed out that "no film made before or after it quite matches it for its mix of the imaginative, the creepy, the funny, and the downright weird".[12]
Classic-Horror said "the acting is fine, the direction is among Castle's best, and the script is semi-brilliant for the time",[13] and Harvey O'Brien of Harvey's Movie Review stated that "for all its flaws, The Tingler is very watchable and has been put together with enough canniness to be enjoyable on its own terms".[14]
Not all reception has been positive. Howard Thompson of The New York Times said "William Castle has been serving some of the worst, dullest little horror entries ever to snake into movie houses".[15]
Home media[edit]
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment released the film on DVD for its 40th anniversary in 1999.[16] The film was later included on the William Castle Film Collection DVD set, released on October 20, 2009.[17]
See also[edit]
- Brottman, Mikita (2004), "Ritual, Tension, and Relief:The Terror or The Tingler", in Grant, Barry Keith; Sharrett, Christopher, Planks of Reason: Essays on the Horror Film, Scarecrow Press, ISBN 978-0810850132
- Heffernan, Kevin (2004), ""A Sissified Bela Lugosi": Vincent Price, William Castle, and AIP's Poe Adaptations", Ghouls, Gimmicks, and Gold: Horror Films and the American Movie Business, 1953–1968, Duke University Press, ISBN 978-0822332152
- ^ "Movie Spotlight: The Tingler". IndyWeek.com. Retrieved May 6, 2011.
- ^ "William Castle Profile". Turner Classic Movies. Retrieved May 6, 2011.
- ^ "Scare-masters; horror times 2". Los Angeles Times. November 7, 2007. Retrieved May 6, 2011.
- ^ a b c d e f g h i j Heffernan (2004), p. 100-104
- ^ a b c Brottman (2004), p. 273
- ^ a b "The Great Gatsby in 3D: Top 10 Movie Gimmicks". TIME. Jan 12, 2011. Retrieved May 6, 2011.
- ^ Browne (2001), p. 144
- ^ "The Tingler". barnesandnoble.com. Retrieved April 27, 2017.
Also included is "William Castle's Drive-In Scream! Scene," which is an additional scene created for the drive-in market and features Castle's own voice replacing that of Vincent Price.
- ^ Castle (1976)
- ^ Heffernan, Kevin (2004). Ghouls, Gimmicks and Gold: Horror Films and the American Movie Business, 1953-1968. Duke University Press. ISBN 0-8223-3215-9.
- ^ "The Tingler". Time Out London.
- ^ "The Tingler". And You Call Yourself a Scientist!.
- ^ "The Tingler". Classic-Horror.com.
- ^ "The Tingler". Harvey's Movie Review.
- ^ "The Tingler". The New York Times.
- ^ "The Tingler (DVD)". Amazon.com. Retrieved 1 December 2016.
- ^ Chuck Bowen (30 October 2009). "The William Castle Film Collection". Slant Magazine. Retrieved 1 December 2016.
- Browne, Pat (2001). The guide to United States popular culture. Popular Press. ISBN 0-87972-821-3.
- Castle, William (1976). Step Right Up!: I'm Gonna Scare the Pants off America. New York: Putnam.
External links[edit]
|Wikiquote has quotations related to: The Tingler
|Wikimedia Commons has media related to The Tingler.


text:
This might be why:
At the time of the ancient mariners even as far back as 500 BC, most were 'married to the sea' due to thier love of the ocean. The ships were their liveihood, their home and their love. As a compliment to the woman they loved they named their sailing vessels after them, telling them that it would remind them of the ones they left behind for the months and sometimes years they have would be gone. This caught on. The 'she' was also given for things of great beauty found in the sea.. ie "Thar she blows!" depicting the massive water spout seen by whaling ships of old which almost all had female names. Even when ships stopped being given feminine names they were still referred to as 'she', but basically this analogy was due to a captain's love for his ship. "Shes a fine ship, Captain" etc...
It's a term of affection
because the feminists would cry if they were called He or Him. We like to think of these things as family so they need names like QE2
Because they carry the traits of a woman.
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When you clean and give her a new paint job she looks beautiful.
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She needs constant attention.
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She constantly is working over time to be the best she can be in all the sea.
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When she comes back from a long journey everyone is happy to see her.
Even when she grows old she never stops working.
Sincerely yours,
Fred M. Hunter
Well look at the size of their bottoms
Originally all items and objects were either masculine or feminine or neuter. English, however, lost these genders as time past but few have stayed such as calling a boat 'she'. Look at the old languages like latin or greek. Not sure why, in french the boat is a 'he' not a 'she'.
To please the sea goddess Minerva
ship sounds with she
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Lawton, Catherine (2011) Otto Kelland's Model Dories and the Digital Archives Initiative. In: SAIL 2011. Into the I of the Storm: Information Resources Undergo a Sea Change , April 5-8, 2011 ,Galveston, Texas USA,
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Otto Kelland was a truly unique individual in Newfoundland. During his long life he had several careers from being a prison superintendant to being an instructor at Marine Institute. During his life Kelland made hundreds of wooden boat models. They are beautifuly hand-crafted and represented the type of watercraft used by fishermen in Newfoundland. The collection of boat models made by Otto Kelland and owned by Marine Institute made an ideal object to be digitalized. In particular the collection of dories was an ideal group to be digitized. They were housed in one cabinet and accompanied by hand-written documents describing each model. The Digital Archives Initiative (DAI) is a "gateway to the learning and research-based cultural resources held by Memorial University of Newfoundland and partnering organizations." The DAI hosts a variety of collections which together reinforce the importance, past and present, of Newfoundland and Labrador's history and culture. I will give an oral presentation of the project followed by a demonstration of the Otto Kelland Dories exhibit on the Digital Archives Initiative (DAI) at Memorial University of Newfoundland. I will be happy to answer questions following my presentation.
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|Otto Kelland's Model Dories and the Digital Archives Initiative
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|April 2011
|Event Title:
|SAIL 2011. Into the I of the Storm: Information Resources Undergo a Sea Change
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|Galveston, Texas USA
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|April 5-8, 2011
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|digital archive maritime archive
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The goalkeeping position appears to be the easiest of Fabio Capello's selections, though the Italian will be fretting at the thought of losing Joe Hart to injury ahead of the finals next summer. With Rob Green's season at West Ham in the Championship interrupted to date by injury, and Ben Foster in a self-imposed exile from the international scene while he is not considered first choice, the options away from Hart are youthful and inexperienced. David Stockdale, Frank Fielding and Scott Loach all ply their trade outside the top flight, while Scott Carson, whose career at this level has been chequered, is playing in Turkey. Life without Hart must feel unthinkable.
First choice Joe Hart*
Young contenders David Stockdale*, Frank Fielding, Scott Loach
Also hopeful Rob Green, Scott Carson*, Ben Foster
Right-back has become England's new left wing since the retirement of Gary Neville, with an apparent lack of options beyond Glen Johnson. The Liverpool defender has been troubled by injury in recent times, prompting the Italian to experiment with Chris Smalling, pictured below, and Phil Jones, both of whom would prefer to be playing in the middle, while strangely ignoring Micah Richards. The Manchester City defender has been in squads but has not been selected, and has been ignored altogether for these two friendlies, which seems harsh given his current form. Kyle Walker, impressive in flashes for Tottenham Hotspur, will surely gain an opportunity against either Spain or Sweden. Martin Kelly at Liverpool may be one for the future, but will do well to displace Johnson at club level in the months ahead.
First choice Glen Johnson*
Young contenders Chris Smalling, Phil Jones*, Kyle Walker*, Martin Kelly
Also hopeful Micah Richards
Ashley Cole remains the regular selection, and is still one of England's few world-class performers, with Leighton Baines now established as his understudy. The Everton defender will presumably travel to Ukraine and Poland, having missed out on South Africa amid suggestions that he would be homesick. This opportunity should not pass him by. Kieran Gibbs could yet challenge him once he returns to fitness at Arsenal, where he will surely be first-choice left-back ahead of André Santos. The only other real contender currently not involved would be Aston Villa's Stephen Warnock, who was present at the World Cup and appears more settled now under Alex McLeish than he did under the Scot's predecessor at Villa Park, Gerard Houllier.
First choice Ashley Cole*, Leighton Baines*
Young contenders Kieran Gibbs
Also hopeful Stephen Warnock
The forthcoming games will apparently be an opportunity for Capello to examine the potential of Phil Jagielka, Gary Cahill and Joleon Lescott without a more established and experienced performer at their side from the start. The Italian must surely be tempted to prefer the long-established partnership of John Terry and Rio Ferdinand at Euro 2012 if each player is fit and in form, though that has rarely been the case over his tenure to date. Both Jones and Smalling would hope to be offered some game time in their favoured position in one of the games ahead of the finals, even if both have filled in regularly at right-back for United so far this term. Michael Dawson, currently sidelined with an achilles problem, would aspire to come back into contention once his season begins in earnest.
First choice John Terry*, Gary Cahill*, Phil Jagielka*
Young contenders Phil Jones*, Chris Smalling
Also hopeful Rio Ferdinand, Joleon Lescott*, Michael Dawson
Central midfielders
Jack Wilshere's absence at Arsenal this season has been a blow for his club but could yet work in England's favour if the teenager is fresh and fit in the buildup to the finals. The youngster is so highly rated by Capello and his staff that he will surely be key to their preparations, with Scott Parker another who has made himself feel irreplaceable. Whether Steven Gerrard regains his place in the set-up – he has not represented his country in a year – will depend upon his recovery from injury and impact over the second half of the season, though he could arguably be suited to operating in the role vacated by the suspended Wayne Rooney in the first three matches.Of the younger contenders, both Jack Rodwell and Jordan Henderson would have to make prolonged impacts at their respective Merseyside clubs to force inclusion, while the finals may come too soon for Josh McEachran even if he secures regular Premier League football on loan from January.
First choice Jack Wilshere, Frank Lampard*, Gareth Barry*, Scott Parker*, James Milner*
Young contenders Jack Rodwell*, Jordan Henderson, Josh McEachran, Tom Cleverley
Also hopeful Michael Carrick, Steven Gerrard, Tom Huddlestone
Capello has options in attacking midfield, which may be encouragement enough for him to stick with a 4-2-3-1 formation. Ashley Young has been a revelation at this level since missing out at the World Cup and has become an established member of the Italian's strongest team, and Theo Walcott has shown flashes to impress at Arsenal this term. Adam Johnson could do with more time on the pitch at Manchester City, and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain could be the tournament's "Walcott selection" if he makes an impact in north London. Excelling in the Carling Cup and with cameos in Europe may not be enough. Of those on the outside looking in, it would take something special from Joe Cole in Lille to earn a recall, despite the fact that the Liverpool loanee was watched by Capello's staff in the recent Champions League defeat to Internazionale. Aaron Lennon and Shaun Wright-Phillips may yet appear too retrospective as selections.
First choice Theo Walcott*, Ashley Young, Adam Johnson*, Stewart Downing*
Young contenders Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain
Also hopeful Shaun Wright‑Phillips, Joe Cole, Matt Jarvis, Aaron Lennon
Rooney's suspension for the first three group games would offer others an opportunity, though Darren Bent, a regular at this level in the qualification campaign, may take some dislodging. The progress of Danny Welbeck at United and Daniel Sturridge at Chelsea has been noted, with both appearing to be ahead of Andy Carroll in the pecking order, and Gabriel Agbonlahor's inclusion against the Spanish and Swedes is intriguing. The Aston Villa forward has felt reborn under McLeish this term, in partnership with Bent. Bobby Zamora does not come with the baggage of previous England failures and will be anxious to make up for missing the World Cup through injury, while neither Peter Crouch nor Jermain Defoe will feel their time at this level has passed. There are plenty of options. Whether any is good enough to fill the void left by Rooney remains to be seen.
First choice Wayne Rooney, Darren Bent*
Young contenders Danny Welbeck*, Daniel Sturridge*, Andy Carroll
Also hopeful Bobby Zamora*, Gabriel Agbonlahor*, Carlton Cole, Jay Bothroyd, Peter Crouch, Jermain Defoe
* denotes in the squad for the games against Spain and Sweden


text: This is the deal you can tell the grandkids about. I need to sell a 2006 Dingo TX 425 Wide Track w/ light materials bucket. Only 70 hours. Also need to sell the soil cultivator. Approx 30 hours. Basically new. Also need to sell power auger head w/ 18" auger and 30" auger. Approx. 30 hours. I moved from Indiana to Nevada 1 year ago equipment is in storage back in Indiana. I can sell separately or discount the entire group. I have pictures when requested.


text:
Pomona Unified School District students participating in the 12-day GEAR UP tour of the University of California campuses were able to take a break Saturday and visit some of the attractions of Santa Cruz. The following are the impressions of some of the students from Day 6 of their trip to the UC campuses.
Diamond Ranch High School senior Andrew Ventura wrote:
"Cool weather, soft sand, warm sun, icy water, and the twinkling lights like fire flies illuminating the Santa Cruz Pier all added up to an amazing day. With friends all around me I found myself enjoying the college experience as well as realizing that one of these UC campuses may pose to be my future home for the years to come. While enjoying the experience, I understand that college will present hard work and I will need to have a lot of determination but with hard work and perseverance comes rest of which I much greatly enjoyed today.
"With tomorrow being the last day here at UC Santa Cruz, I've taken a lot into consideration throughout the duration of this past week. The colleges surrounding and in the Bay Area have all posed unique qualities to applicants like me in the fall. With so many more colleges to see and experience I can only take in and absorb all I can for my future applications and my possible future as a UC student."
Ganesha High School senior Octavio Zaragoza wrote:
"On our last (day) here in the beautiful city of Santa Cruz, we took some time off to enjoy the city. In the morning we reflected on our trips to the northern UC schools. Later on we went to Santa Cruz beach and to the boardwalk. The boardwalk was full of entertainment such as rides, food, and games. Our last day in Santa Cruz could not have gone any better."
Ganesha High School senior Omar Zaragoza wrote:
"Today, all the different groups presented to each other what we have learned about the UCs so far. Each group had a different category that they researched for all the UCs. My group's area of research is food so we presented about the different meal plans and food varieties we experienced at the UCs. After the presentations we all gathered for lunch and headed to the beach. At the beach we all had free time to enjoy the beach and relax if we wanted. I spent my time with friends burying each other and swimming even though it was freezing cold."


text:
Curricular Definitions
Area of Study Certification Program: An undergraduate program comprised of a coherent pattern of courses (18-30 semester hours). Normally, the program is open only to graduates, but other qualified individuals may apply. At least 15 semester hours or two-thirds (2/3) of the semester hour credits (whichever is greater) must be completed at the college; no less than one-half (1/2) of the credits at the upper division level.
may have two (2) meanings:
Field Experience: College-supervised experience which includes student activities within the formal classroom and in the community. Grades and semester hour credit may be assigned only by faculty.
Goals: General Outcomes of a program or course.
Graduate Program: A pattern of courses, normally within a discipline, leading to graduate certification, master's degree or doctoral degree.
Major Program: A pattern of courses, normally within a discipline, as required for a degree.
Minor Program: A grouping of selected, related and approved courses that originate under a major degree program. The minor has stated goals and a suggested distribution and sequence of courses to include lower and upper level. (Minors shall consist of a minimum of 18 semester hours in a specified field other than one's major.)
Open Hearing: Scheduled by the College or Senate Curriculum Committee; interested members of the University Community may discuss, review, or question the proposal.
Objectives: Objectives in terms of intellectual achievements, skills, or behaviors which the student will exhibit at completion of the course or program.
Certificate of Graduate Study (COGS) and Certificate of Advanced of Graduate Study (CAGS): Certificate program proposals will need to indicate which level of certificate is being sought. The COGS indicate post-baccalaureate achievement and the CAGS indicate achievement beyond the Master's degree. Both will consist of a coherent pattern of 9-24 semester hours of graduate courses. Applicants seeking admission to a certificate of advanced study program must meet normal admission requirements except that G.R.E. scores will not be required. No more than three (3) semester hour credits from other institutions may be transferred to meet requirements of this program. Course work offered for these Certificates, while in every way appropriately designated graduate course work, may not necessarily fulfill programmatic requirements in individual graduate programs or conceivably in any graduate program except as electives. This certificate program is not designed for those who intend to matriculate in a master's degree program.
Quasi-Curricular Proposals: The SCC will preliminarily identify quasi-curricular proposals and forward them to the Executive Committee of the Senate, to route and track quasi-curriculum proposals, and to respond to queries concerning quasi-curricular proposals in process. The Executive Committee of the Senate is to be responsible for determining the final disposition of proposals preliminarily identified as "quasi-curricular" by the Curriculum Committee. The Executive Committee of the Senate is to be responsible for the establishment of procedures by which open hearings may be held before the Senate. Quasi-curricular proposals include the creation of a new department or college or dissolution of an existing department or college, and the shift of a department from one college to another.
Seminar: Small group experience (no more than 15 students). Emphasis is on the inter-relationship and discussion of shared knowledge within a given discipline.
Topics Courses:
Specialization: Courses pursued by a student within a major degree program that are focused in a cohesive area of the major program. Minimum of 12 semester hours.
Structure and Function of Curriculum Committees: See document on restructuring the Senate Curriculum Committees (approved 4/26/98).
Variable Credit: The assignment of a range of credits to any course or instructional unit. (See May 14, l976 Senate report for valuation, methods, and limitations.)


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text:
Did anybody else see this:
Silas believes the 76ers will give him that opportunity.
"I didn't have time to be disappointed or upset [about the draft,]" Silas said. "Sacramento's 60th pick was still on the screen when Philly called me and wanted me 100 percent to come into camp. They said, 'We don't want you to go to Europe. We want you to come in our training camp 100 percent because we need a 2 [guard.]
"I know they like my game. I know I'm going to play my game. I know everything is going to work out. I'm just happy everything is on track."
Here's a brief workout video:
Now I am really interested in this guy. One of his coaches described him as "Ray Allen with OCD" and he says he's all about tough defense too. Saw another article that says his godfather is Doctor J, so that is an interesting connection to the Sixers, especially Collins.
Everything you did (or didn't) want to know about Silas. Including Evil Kanevil, Che Guevara and I Dream of Genie references (6:09). :)
too true. He is very stream-of-consciousness right? lol
"We want you to come in our training camp 100 percent because we need a 2 [guard.]"
So, does this quietly say that they no longer see Turner as a 2? Viewing him more as a 3?
And that they want more than Meeks there, with Lou seeing time at PG like last year backing up Jrue and Lou not being off the ball as much?
Sure, it'd be nice to upgrade Meeks, but isn't Lou a capable bench guy playing the 2?
Though last year Lou had the ball in his hands a ton and Tom Moore already posted something a while back that Lou views himself as a starter (which could turn into a locker room problem).
Tough to say. I believe they see Turner as a 2, but they also need another versatile wing shooter, especially if he's cheap. Rose-colored Glasses/Best case scenario, if he can play both guard spots & his scoring translates, he could become Lou's replacement, sort of a better shooting George Hill type. He has some slashing skill, so he and meeks could make an interesting backup backcourt
Backup backcourt to whom? Jrue and ...? Meeks is the de facto starter, right?
Assuming the eventual evolution of Turner, Meeks is best as a 3rd guard
Agree on Meeks, though he fits a perfect role as long as he's between Jrue and Iguodala. Don't see Doug removing him from the starting lineup simply because of spacing playing between those two. But I think there's more to that "we need a 2 guard comment" than is being inferred. Considering the last half of the season, and with this now being said, leads me to believe that they see Turner more as a 3; along with the weaknesses he possesses needed to play the 2.
Just saying there's an awful lot of hopeful assumption amongst some of the fan base of Turner being this critical piece of a future backcourt with Jrue. Reminiscent of when a lot of the fan base held out hope that Iguodala and Thad would work as a 2/3 tandem. That didn't pan out, and evidence to this point plus comments being made recently (Thorn saying he's similar to Iguodala) are heading down the same road as I see it.
Turner's primary requirement this summer is to show that his jump shot performance over the 2nd half wasn't a fluke and could be built on. If he can do that, he can fit, then you get all the extra benefits(better defender, playmaker, rebounder) over Meeks.
eh, agree, but to an extent - he was being dared to shoot on a majority of those looks. it'll be a different ballgame if he's actually being guarded and especially gameplanned for. At a minimum, you have to be a 'threat' to shoot to 'fit' between the previous mentioned two. Being left open purposely and knocking down jumpers isn't considered much of a threat.
Though I realize you prefaced it with the gargantuan word "If".
I read in Fagan's chat that ET will NOT be working with Herb Magee (shooting coach).
I think that's smart. I never liked the idea of messing with a guy's shooting form when he's been doing it that way for 20 years and has excelled at every level.
Turner's shooting was much improved the last 2 months of the season, let's see how that carries over before ruining the guy's game.
whoa! not sure how I feel about that - talk about riding the fence. I never liked the idea of trying to break down a shot after doing it that way for such a long time. Too much muscle memory to wipe away along with embedding the new muscle memory of the re-worked shot. That's not only a huge mountain to climb but also a huge mountain to come down.
On the flip side, something has to at least be tweaked because it just comes off way too flat for it to have increased chances of going in from mid-range to deep-range. It seems he doesn't get enough elbow extension or something. Maybe he can borrow some from Andre as he has more than enough extension :)
Still seems really odd that he's not working with Magee when considering that Doug Collins said that his shot was broken or needed to be re-worked from the ground up. Weren't his comments somewhere along those lines?
Evan is taking classes at Ohio State and working out with former Buckeyes (Mike Conley, Ray Lewis, Scoonie Penn, Byron Mullins, Jon Diebler). He is also working out with the OSU strength and conditioning coaches during the lockout.
I just thought about this. Magee doesn't work for free, so the Sixers would have been paying him to work on Turner's shot. Obviously Turner isn't going to pay for that out of his own pocket. With the lockout, the Sixers are not allowed to pay for training for their players.
That's probably the sole reason. But I think it's ultimately a good thing, changing a guy's shot at age 21 is not a good idea in my opinion. Let's see if his shot continues to improve like it did the last couple months of the season. If it doesn't, then maybe the following summer work with Magee. But I think changing everything after just a rookie season is too quick.
Don't think this has anything to do with money. I don't know how much Magee costs, but with all of the camps and high school kids he works with, I bet it isn't that much money. Magee's prime example that he always cites is Malik Rose. To me, this is Turner not wanting to work with Magee. Is that a good thing? I don't know.
I don't know what to think. I kind of thought that Magee could have made the proper tweaks (hand placement mostly) to help Turner get better. Magee helped Rose get a big contract and made him a better shooter. More than anything, I hope he's working hard at OSU.
There's no way any player would ever pay out of his own pocket for a shot-specialist that was recommended by his team. That's the team's expense 100%, even if Turner wanted it. It doesn't mean Turner doesn't want to learn, it just means that it was impossible because of the lockout. That's my guess, at least.
eh, the way I look at it is if he does want to learn/get better and achieve more success he would be willing to do whatever it takes, if that is paying for something himself then so be it. It's not like he doesn't have the funds to do it. He's had a staff at the highest level recommend he needs some mechanical work so why not take control of your own situation and initiate getting the help.
Don't know what to make of this, but it is reminiscent of how he came in with that stubborn attitude at the start of the season and wasn't taking well to position changes and on-court criticism. His body language left a lot to be desired at one point early last year, if you remember.
If he's going to use the lockout as an excuse as you are guessing (who knows?), then he's just hardheaded and doesn't take well to constructive criticism to begin with.
This is reflective of your Turner-hate. No NBA player would pay for something like this that was the team's recommendation. It's the team's expense. To say thing has anything to do with Turner's attitude is absurd.
Heh, what do you have to say to Rich's comment below about plenty of guys paying out of their own pockets and it being an investment because it helps them become better players in turn resulting in better contracts.
Is this just your Turner-blindness? (you caused me to go there with your silly comparable accusation)
They were two different comments. I simply questioned the financial implications of the situation. While I agree with your thinking of it being his decision, you offered a fairly negative psychological evaluation of the guy, while I think he probably just wanted to go back to a place that he's comfortable.
I disagree with Rich, I doubt there are "plenty of guys" paying out of pocket for shooting coaches that their team recommend they work with. Your psychoanalysis of Turner, when he simply went back to Ohio St. to get his college degree and isn't allowed to do anything related to the Sixers, was simply silly.
Eh, I don't know how that's 100 percent, a lot of guys seem to be willing to pay out of their own pockets. It's really an investment when you look at it. I bet it really wasn't that much money in the grand scheme of how much he is making.
Plus, are they allowed to pay a college coach directly? That seems a little fishy. What if John Calipari was a shooting coach on payroll from the Sixers.
If I had to guess I think most players felt that the lockout was going to happen.
If that's the case, going back to OSU made sense for Turner. He is close to getting his degree, gets to use the OSU training facilities and has a community of high level players to play with (European pros, NBA players, and current Buckeyes).
Fagan has also said that Meeks is taking classes at Kentucky, probably for the same reasons.
I wouldn't be surprised if Turner does workout with Magee in the future.
Yeah, that's a fine way to spend your offseason IMO, especially the part about getting in great shape/stronger with their athletic facilities. Most of the guys Herb worked with are from Philly or have really strong ties here (Barkley/Jameer/Rose). Turner probably wanted to go to the place where he had strong ties.
I just think it was probably his preference to do that instead of spending time with Magee, not a financial decision.
I have trouble believing any NBA player would pay for a shooting coach at the recommendation of his team. The team would always pay for that.
Another link, written by Xavier Silas himself, after getting the call from Philly. Good philosophy by him.
"...This thing we call life is a journey. We have to leave our house prepared in the mornings packing love, hope, and faith. And when we get hit with those inevitable trials, tribulations and setbacks we have to use them as our assets. Sundance told me he has never seen someone work so hard just to be rewarded so little. That made me feel good. Not the part about how he thinks I haven't received what I deserve but the part about how he thinks I work hard. That is what life is about. Working so hard that you don't have regrets in the end. Being able to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of a day and smile because you didn't cheat yourself, your work or the world.
Philly gave me an official invite to camp after the lockout and the situation there is a good one. Time to work and turn these exciting moments into the 10,000 hours needed to master a skill."
Stories like Silas' are really what make the lockout hit home for me. If it wasn't for the lockout, he'd be getting ready for summer league with the Sixers and hopefully doing work. Now, he's just waiting like the rest of us.
Wow - a Malcom Gladwell "Outliers" reference
"Philly gave me an official invite to camp after the lockout and the situation there is a good one. Time to work and turn these exciting moments into the 10,000 hours needed to master a skill."
Good catch. I was thinking to myself, "This guy is pretty well spoken for a basketball player."
Great book "Outliers" by the way.
Just to be clear, well-spoken player, terrible book.
That caught me too. Turns out I found an article that said that he worked with Blake Griffin's trainer, who has a sort of functional grinding approach (including military style excursions) and that's where he picked it up from.
a couple lockout rules(via ric bucher):
NBA GMs/coaches can still follow their players on Twitter during lockout. But a mention or re-tweet? $1 million fine + maybe loss of picks.
Rule II: Coaches w/AAU or college-playing sons (Mike Brown/Larry Drew/Doc Rivers) can watch games but not practices
Here's my piece on sb nation Philly: http://mobile.philly.sbnation.com/philadelphia-76ers/2011/7/1/2253818/the-nba-lockout-get-comfortable-this-might-take-a-while
Any good suggestions for a new hobby or rooting interest for the next 6-9 months?
If the Billionaires and Millionaires are going to have a pissing match then I'd rather turn my attention to something with actual entertainment value. Unfortunately the NBA and NFL are the two sports I follow the closest.
Does Collins replace Q.Snyder [lakers?] and how much credit does he get for last year.
This may be a silly question but can the team be sold during a work stopage and how does that affect the new owners. I would think they would want a say in the process and how the new CBA looks.
Makes sense. I doubt they get as much say as established owners. I presume the owners are in factions based on market size and financial approach/liquidity. My guess is that new new owners will fall into the same camp as the old owners, since the Sixers are comparative "losers" in the NBA market.
I would think the new owner falls into a different "camp" since the new owner doesn't own a nhl franchise as well. Apparently the owners who also have stakes in NHL franchises are most aggressively pushing the lockout since they've seen the benefit of a lockout elsewhere.
For the record I see the nfl not missing any games and I see the nba missing 30 games.
I'm rooting for the Owners. I would love to see an NHL style salary cap implemented, just to allow for better, more open competition
Welp Thorn has kind of spoken, got this email from the team today:
Dear [das411],
Thank you for your continued loyalty and support of the Philadelphia 76ers.
As you may have heard, the NBA and the players have not yet reached a new collective bargaining agreement and, as a result, a work stoppage is now in effect.
While we are hopeful that the National Basketball Association and the NBA Players Association will advance toward an agreement, our priority during this time is to keep our most valued customers, Sixers Season Ticketholders, informed and aware of related developments.
In the event that a new agreement is not reached in time to avoid missing games, we will have a plan in place to protect your investment.
We appreciate your on-going support and the commitment you have made to renew your tickets for the 2011-2012 season.
Click here to view the official NBA Press Release.
Rod Thorn
Philadelphia 76ers
and the release is just a couple of quotes from that adam silver guy...it probably doesn't mean anything, but they are using Thorn's name on there instead of, say, Collins or Snider or any of the new guys...
I got the same email. I wonder what the contingency plan is.
Really wish the Sixers could get Nene. Wonder if a sign and trade will be possible post-lockout.
Supposedly the government wants to crack down on illegal streaming... so I guess those of us on the west coast are screwed?
Please tell me I'm wrong.
You will still be able to pay for NBA league pass broadband and watch online.
Court_vision has moved from the basketball court to the judicial courts. I guess with the Lockout we all have to find new hobbies :)
Haha you're definitely right if by "screwed" you mean you won't be able to steal basketball games that cost money to watch :)
All photos of players have been removed from the 30 NBA team sites:
I am all for the players trying to get as much money as they can. But it seems they don't understand the concept of bargaining leverage - they dont really have any. Apparently, the business is losing money (I understand the financial information is public and shared by both sides unlike the NFL). When a business loses money, the model is broken and the employees need to make concessions, and thats that. (same goes for state employees, but thats a different topic for a different day)
Paying employees 60% of revenue never sounded sustainable to me. Given, the NBA is an entertainment business and doesnt require the same capital investment and cost-of-goods as a car company, airline company or other capital intensive industries..... In a business where the end-product is entertainment or intellectual capital, the primary cost is employee compensation. In this respect, the NBA economics are not much different than a Wall Street firm or a private law firm - the NBA teams rent or buy stadiums, the others rent or buy office buildings - the rest of the cost is essentailly labor. The businesses I mention run compensation cost at 30-50% of revenues. the NBA should do the same. markets change. Labor is just a market.
there is no reason why an NBA owner will accept a lower risk-asjusted return on capital than a parter at a law firm or the shareholder of a bank. They actually should demand a higher return as an illiquidity premium, perhaps somewhat offset by the prestige of owning a franchise. The last labor agreement was a really good deal for the players. The owners honored what was a terrible deal, and now its history. You cant always assume things will be the same or better. The players need to accept that.
A few questions. Why should teams who overpaid for players or made other bad business decisions be bailed out by the players? Is the statement that 22 teams failed to turn a profit last year based on creative accounting? Are the labor disputes of the NBA and NFL a reflection of the overall political climate surrounding unions? Can the NBA solve its profitability issues by revenue sharing?
im not sure what you mean by 'bailed out by the players'. There was a 10 year compensation agreement which resulted in the league as whole losing money. clearly if the business isnt making money, the cost structure needs to change. perhaps when the original deal was made, the business climate was better or they didnt expect contracts to play out as they did. but thats history now. the employees need to understand that they can only earn as much as the consumer is will to pay. and they obviously arent willing to pay enough to compensate for the bloated cost structure.
it seems pretty clear that the owners are not going to re-enter a deal where they expect to lose money . they need to expect to make money in most scenarios or else there are better investments to put hundreds of millions at risk.
This is just silly and wrong. The Indiana Pacers, who are managed astutely, can never make a profit (didn't even profit in the Reggie Miller years). Sacramento Kings have a tiny payroll, yet are hemorrhaging money. Memphis has managed its team well, and is losing money.
Meanwhile the Knicks and Clippers were managed absolutely terribly in the 2000s, yet always made a profit.
Teams aren't losing money because they overpaid a particular player. They are losing money because, outside of the huge wealthy cities (NYC, LA, etc.), ticket prices cannot be raised high enough to cover the costs of 57% of revenue going to the players. It's as simple as that.
I'm not for either side... but the NBA is the entertainment business. What % do bands get when they go on tour? I would not try and make a parallel with an airline or other non-entertainment industry.
"Given, the NBA is an entertainment business and doesnt require the same capital investment and cost-of-goods as a car company, airline company or other capital intensive industries"
re-read this quote.. you misunderstand, i am contrasting with capital intense industries.. and paralleling with investment banks and law firms which have similar cost structures and therefore should have similar compensation as a % of revenue. 60% of revenue is not going to work in any business model.
Band comparison doesn't work, because bands employ themselves (tour promoters are basically their agents). NBA players are employees of the NBA. NBA is losing money, mainly because the players get an ungodly 57% of revenue (unheard of in American for-profit private industry). Just like any other profession, when the business is not making a profit, there are 2 options: (1) liquidate, or (2) reduce labor costs. The players have the choice of losing jobs (through contraction or outright folding the league) or taking less pay. I think it's obvious that taking less pay is the better solution for both sides.
That's all the owners are saying, essentially. I really don't understand how anyone can take the players' side in this dispute. Many players individually are making more money than the owners, which is absurd and no sustainable. In tech companies that make billion-dollar profits, for example, their programmers make what, $75k? $100k? NBA franchises are LOSING money, and the players are making $4M per year on average or so. And they complaining. That's just an LOL.
Good points. to stress my original intended point - the players should understand that they are in a position of complete weakness. and it appears that they dont.
Bottom line is that owners are better off with no season (under current conditions). and the players are much worse off. lol , good luck at the bargaining table you fools.
im a capitalist , i think everyone has the right to make enough moey to swim in. but you have to recognize the underlying economics of the business and be realistic. these guys dont care, they just want to "get theirs".
Absolutely, completely agree. Players are being obtuse. They have no bargaining leverage, and yet the owners already conceded on their two radical ideas (eliminating guaranteed contracts and implementing a rock-hard cap). Still the players don't get it. Fine players, go unemployed for a year, while the owners save money instead of hemorrhage it. That'll really help the players, LOL.
Everything you wrote here is 100% accurate.
the packers are the only franchise i know with publicly disclosed financials, public companies have audited financials., yada yada/ this link is from 2010. i encourage you to read it.
"Packers officials said Wednesday that the team posted an operating profit of $9.8 million in the fiscal year
that ended March 31, down from $20.1 million the previous year. The team has been in a slide since posting an operating profit of $34 million four years ago."
here is the point, you invest $300mm or so in a franchise, even the $34mm operating profit is unacceptable -its a pre-tax measure. not to get too deep in geek finance but the measure investors care about is Return on Capital, which is post-tax. so say we are talking $20-$25mm post-tax net income, you are talking 8% return on risky capital? ?? that is completely unacceptable. if you read the full article this is 100% attributable to rising salaries and stagnant revenues.
this is an example from the NFL, where the teams actually turn a profit. bball is 10x more dire. i have zero sympathy for the players. this is a business, it runs on investors and they need incentives to invest.
"here is the point, you invest $300mm or so in a franchise, even the $34mm operating profit is unacceptable -its a pre-tax measure. not to get too deep in geek finance but the measure investors care about is Return on Capital, which is post-tax. so say we are talking $20-$25mm post-tax net income, you are talking 8% return on risky capital?"
Well, first of all, I'm not sure how investing in the Packers would be considered risky capital. When was the last time an NFL, NBA or MLB team depreciated in value? And really, when we're talking about return on investment, the profits aren't the only thing you take into account. You say 8% is too low, which is debatable, but you aren't taking the increased value of the franchise into account. And I'd say that value is probably going to increase further if/when the NFL labor negotiations are settled.
Also, professional sports are certainly a business, but people don't buy teams to make money...or at least that isn't the primary motivation, for the most part. If someone has $300M sitting around and their goal is to turn it into a billion, buying a sports team isn't how they're going to try to do it. It's a vanity thing. So yes, they should expect to make money, and the labor agreements should certainly be set up to give the owners their fair share, but I don't think you can really compare sports to other businesses, and if all the teams were earning 8% of value of the franchise every year in after tax profits, I don't think we'd be in the situation we're in right now.
Is revenue sharing among NBA teams a possible solution?
Here is a link discussing the accounting issue.
Its the best article on the CBA issue, IMHO of course:
Isn't owning an NBA team more of an expensive hobby than a business?
Do individuals and corporations who own sports franchises do it for reasons other than turning a profit?
If both sides agree that the system is broken, at what point do the NBA owners demands become unreasonable?
Put another way, should the players just cave in and do whatever the owners want?
Geek accounting aside, are sports franchises rally analogous to other businesses?
"Is revenue sharing among NBA teams a possible solution?"
In theory, but I don't think it's very desirable.
"Isn't owning an NBA team more of an expensive hobby than a business?"
Only because the current CBA is set up to make profitability extremely unlikely. It shouldn't be that way, and that's why they are fixing it.
"Do individuals and corporations who own sports franchises do it for reasons other than turning a profit?"
The NBA would not exist if the ultimate goal was not to make a profit. It was created for that ultimate purpose and is run for that ultimate purpose.
"If both sides agree that the system is broken, at what point do the NBA owners demands become unreasonable?"
The only thing unreasonable is a for-profit industry in America being expected to lose money and like it. Do you see it as some charity so that me who are good at basketball can get rich? We know most of the owners aren't getting rich off it.
"Put another way, should the players just cave in and do whatever the owners want?"
Well, only if they want to continue playing basketball for millions of dollars. If they don't, they are free to try another profession. Something tells me they won't be able to find the money or fun in another profession.
"Geek accounting aside, are sports franchises rally analogous to other businesses?"
Is it a for-profit industry or not? Analogous or not, the NBA was created to make a profit, and it continues to remain a for-profit league.
good questions. ill definitely check out the article,
i think there is definitely a hobby element for some owners, like a mark cuban. however, i highly doubt this anywhere near the norm. i mentioned in one of my posts above, that owners will likely accept a lower return on capital for the prestige of being an owner. but im certain that in aggregate they want to earn something reasonable. jerry jones, george steinbrenner, these are businessmen first.
i dont think the players believe the system is broken. that seems to be the biggest problem IMO.
i believe its the players who are unreasonable, not the owners. (due to all the points i made above)
iu believe sports franchises are analogous to other businesses to some extent. its the loud, young , rich entrepeneurs that you hear all the time because they are vocal. but i beleive the cubans of the business are outliers.
Excellent points. Comcast, for example, definitely saw the Sixers as a business.
Man do I hope Brian wasn't at that Yankee/Met game today!
Both sides in this labor dispute (like in most) have played there roles in bring the whole thing to this point. The players by not seeing that they have as much of a intrest in making the NBA as profitable as possible. The owners for not having the will to not give out bad contracts and for not replacing execs who were clearly not good at there job. The only group that deserves any sympathy are the support people. Because the players and owners are both lack foresight or will power that group will suffer through no fault of there own.
The "owners giving out bad contracts" thing is such hooey. Indiana and Sacramento have low payrolls and are not profitable. The Grizzlies have managed their team very well and are not profitable. The Wizards were under the cap this year and were not profitable.
Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas's Knicks, who gave out every bad contract you can imagine, were profitable every year he was in charge.
The bad contract offers have nothing to do with profitability. Why does this ridiculous myth keep getting spread when it's patently false?
Does an owner's management of a team have any effect on the profitability of that team?
If so to what extent should an individual owner be held accountable for their business decisions?
Shouldn't all current contracts be honored?
Shouldn't NBA teams have to honor the contracts they entered into or is it okay to cut those contracts 15 to 25% across the board?
shouldn't every owner get a equal share of revenue from the NBA? If not, why not?
"The only thing unreasonable is a for-profit industry in America being expected to lose money and like it. Do you see it as some charity so that me who are good at basketball can get rich? We know most of the owners aren't getting rich off it."
so the players should just do whatever the nba says? if the nba set the maximum salary for an nba player at 2.5 million per year, that's what the players should accept?
NBA players entertain millions of people around the world do they deserve to have any say in what their compensation should be?
whats with the for profit in america stuff?
the nba and the players both had a had in allowing this situation to get to the point where profitability is an issue.
shouldn't both groups have to compromise?
What industry do you know of that guarantees a profit to all its participants?
I believe what he is saying is that any compromise has to begin with universal viability as its focus. To that point, this labor debate has an interesting, quasi-unique angle in that it is almost a revolt by management. It might not be a stretch to say that the Owners' theme of this Lockout could be "Revolution or Dissolution".
IMO, there are two facts that should underlie any discussion of NBA labor issues:
1) Both sides agree that teams are losing money, the only debate is the precise details(i.e. which teams, how much, etc).
2) NBA players enjoy the highest average salary of any team athlete in any professional sport in the entire world.
The Owners(many of them at least) are saying that they literally are losing money or just barely breaking even. In that regard, they have the advantage. To borrow a war analogy, it is far easier for a person to defend their home then it is to invade the home of another. The Owners are saying we have to fix this or else.
The players, OTOH, are essentially saying "the current model works for us so lets tweak it just a bit and continue." That is the disconnect and both Mckie & Stoned81's point; in any labor debate, if management is saying the business will fail, labor has to concede, especially if the concession 'forces' the labor to go from the highest in their industry class to 'very well-compensated but still employed.'
The problem is that the Players' position is essentially about pride; they don't want to give back anything their predecessors won for them during a previous era. The players don't recognize that the previous labor agreements were negotiated against an ownership group that had essentially gotten rich off of their teams, primarily thanks to the resurgence led by Stern and showcasing Magic, Bird which crested with Jordan. Many of those owners had a low initial investment and saw the worth of their franchises skyrocket, so they could afford a player-friendly deal.
But now you have a new generation of owners that bought high and is being forced to accept either just breaking even or losing money, unless they are blessed to being in a market that enables them to make money no matter what(i.e. NY or LA etc). These are the owners that are seeking revolution and pushing the hard line stance, which is why, in the end, the players will crack, because the Owners are willing to go the distance while the players cannot. It doesn't help that many of these owners either also own NHL teams or are close to people that do. Hell, NHL commissioner Bettman was a Stern disciple.
Also, regarding the "Bad Contracts" myth, sports owners are involved in a version of the Prisoner's Dilemma. They know, as a group, that some players are only worth X, yet each individual owner could choose to exceed that amount if they feel that the player can be the difference. The basketball people are saying the player has talent, yet the player wants a salary that clearly outsizes his talent.
For the good of the whole, it would be better to establish and hold a hardline, but what if that player, even overpaid, might be able to help you win? A big market/mega-rich owner can swallow the contract & the luxury tax penalties, which means it is not a real gamble(ex. Dallas Mavericks or LA Lakers). If the owner can't, if they have to run their team on a specific budget that cannot be surpassed, then you have a real dilemma. Do you let the talent pass and allow your fans and players feel that "you aren't committed to winning" and cause your business to consequently lose value, or do you overpay and hope that the player can help you win which should help increase your value and cover your costs?
This scenario is compounded by the NBA system that makes it very hard for teams to replace talent if they simply choose to walk away. For example, if the Sixers had let Sam Dalembert go instead of paying him that big deal, they would've been stuck with a team featuring a highly compensated Allen Iverson, a highly compensated Chris Webber and no chance to win. There were no comparable centers on the market and they wouldn't have had the space to chase one anyway. So they would've had that big payroll supported by a journeyman center. Instead, they took a gamble that Sam could fulfill the promise of that playoff series and lost.
Another example was the fact that Indiana had to basically pay Jamaal Tinsley to stay away for years. He wouldn't accept a partial buyout and they couldn't trade him, so they were stuck with him dragging down their payroll for nothing in return, all because they took a gamble on a PG that showed promise and got burned.
Contrast that with the NFL, where a team really doesn't have to suffer a mistake long. The Eagles dumped TO after his meltdown at the precise moment his cap hit would be minimized, which meant that they only had to endure a few months of his antics. If that were the NBA, his deal, fully guaranteed, might have just ended last season. The NHL, which has guaranteed contracts & a hard cap, has strongly defined buyout guidelines that I wished the NBA would adapt. This enables teams to remove players more easily.
Completely accurate, very well written.
Thank you.
As you can see, I am definitely pro-owner in this debate, as anyone should be who doesn't get distracted by any 'pro-union' emotion. This isn't the Teachers Union in Wisconsin. It isn't even the NFL's scenario.
With the NFL, the motives seems to be "we make a ton of money, lets change the rules to make even more, even if the players health might suffer in the process".
The aspect that cracks me up about the Players' side is the argument that they should not "be responsible for bad management decisions", like they are not talking about fellow union members or something. Like you could have Derek Fisher at a podium making that argument while Rashard Lewis & Michael Redd stand behind him nodding in agreement, lol.
Ironically, if the owners acted as 'responsibly' as the union seems to want, that would actually drive down the earning power of almost every member of their union anyway. There would be no guaranteed contracts handed out by anyone, and the "middle class" they wish to protect so badly would pretty much be decimated, all fears that the Union is using to defend against the hard cap.
Haha I laughed aloud at the thought of Redd and Lewis nodding along.
One other thing that's funny is the union is telling the owners to act responsibly, well OK, that's what they're doing by holding a lockout because 20 of 30 teams are losing money. And as you said, "responsible" owners would reduce the players' wealth, why would they want that?
I don't think Billy Hunter is as dumb as he pretends to be, so I'm still somewhat confident he recognizes these facts, and hopefully we'll have a season. If the owners had insisted on eliminating guaranteed contracts and imposing a true hard cap, we could have missed a whole season (or more). But given that they already conceded those points, I think it's all obnoxiousness-for-show from the players, and in reality, they know that getting a little less money is better than getting none at all, and will make a deal.
I agree, it is so easy to talk tough, especially those guys who are making a good bit of off-court monies, whether that is from business or endorsements. The rub hits the road officially on 11/15, when the 1st check is due. That is when the fracturing, if it hasn't already happened, will start, imo.
This isn't like a normal labor unrest, its one thing if the workers realize they cannot sustain themselves with what's being offered. In this scenario, Management successfully winning their goals regarding "pay for performance" and "cost certainty" will not come close to bankrupting the players, but choosing to continue the lockout just to be obstinate could. The lesser players and the older ones, who know that they cannot recoup the lost money, will start to bring the heat. Careers don't last long enough for them to be willing to really battle. It's easy for a Kevin Durant to speak on skipping a year if need be. He's barely drinking age, after all. I pay more attention to the Grant Hills and J-Kidds, who speak about the possibility that this lockout could end their career. That has more significance, imo
Haha I laughed aloud at the thought of Redd and Lewis nodding along.
One other thing that's funny is the union is telling the owners to act responsibly, well OK, that's what they're doing by holding a lockout because 20 of 30 teams are losing money. And as you said, "responsible" owners would reduce the players' wealth, why would they want that?
I don't think Billy Hunter is as dumb as he pretends to be, so I'm still somewhat confident he recognizes these facts, and hopefully we'll have a season. If the owners had insisted on eliminating guaranteed contracts and imposing a true hard cap, we could have missed a whole season (or more). But given that they already conceded those points, I think it's all obnoxiousness-for-show from the players, and in reality, they know that getting a little less money is better than getting none at all, and will make a deal.
"Does an owner's management of a team have any effect on the profitability of that team?"
Doesn't seem like it in the NBA. Indiana and Memphis, both well managed, both unprofitable. Knicks/Clippers, both terribly managed the whole 2000s decade, both always profitable.
"If so to what extent should an individual owner be held accountable for their business decisions?"
Depends on what you mean by "held accountable." Do you want the franchises to fold if they aren't successful? That's called contraction. Players are adamantly opposed to contraction and won't even discuss it a basis for negotiations, because it means lost jobs. Players won't consider contraction, but they also won't consider lower salaries. They just want the owners to continue losing money, without any adjustment. The world doesn't work like that, you can't have it both ways.
"shouldn't every owner get a equal share of revenue from the NBA? If not, why not?"
No, they shouldn't. To buy the Knicks, for example, one has to shell out probably $700M, simply because NYC is such a gargantuanly expensive city to run a business in. All costs are higher (to make up for that, revenues in NYC are higher). Whereas to buy the Sixers, less than $300M will get it done. It's cheaper to operate a business in Philly (but correspondingly, revenue is lower). It's not fair to make a potential owner pay more money to buy the Knicks, then ask him to pay an additional pile of money to every other owner.
Some revenue sharing is reasonable. For example, they share some national TV money among all 30 teams. All-star weekend revenue is shared across all 30 teams. NBA draft viewership revenue is shared across all 30 teams. They share the revenue because it's an NBA-wide operation.
But the Sixers home-game ticket revenue is strictly a Sixer operation. The Sixers local TV revenue is strictly a Sixer operation. That money stays with the Sixers.
"Shouldn't NBA teams have to honor the contracts they entered into or is it okay to cut those contracts 15 to 25% across the board?"
If they reduce them, it will only be by CBA, mutually agreed upon, so no contract principle is broken there. Players know when they sign their contracts that they are subject to the CBA, which they knew at the time of signing would expire 7/1/11. The only legal requirement to "honor" the contract was to honor the money thru the existing CBA, expiring 7/1. The contract amounts after 7/1 were/are subject to a new CBA post-7/1. This is not a surprise, it's not news, it's part of all NBA contracts. They are honoring the contracts, otherwise players would go to court to demand their paychecks even during a lockout.
"so the players should just do whatever the nba says?"
No, the players should do whatever they want. If they want to sit around and make zero dollars during a lockout, they're free to do so. If they want to find new professions or start new leagues or go to Europe and play, they're free to do so. They can do whatever they want, that's the great thing about a free country.
"if the nba set the maximum salary for an nba player at 2.5 million per year, that's what the players should accept?"
Again, they can accept whatever they want. The $2.5M max is just silly, because the owners know they would lose their stars to Europe at that salary and would never impose it. A compromise, however, will be reasonable, and $23M/yr is obviously too high and needs to come down. The compromise max needs to be high enough to keep the stars in the NBA instead of going to Europe, but low enough so that the franchises can become profitable again. That's Capitalism 101, welcome to the American free market.
"NBA players entertain millions of people around the world do they deserve to have any say in what their compensation should be?"
This is business. You get a paycheck, you go to work, you go home. Whatever one "deserves" is not relevant. And of course players have a say in their compensation, they are the ones negotiating the new CBA and they are the ones who have the right to sign or not sign their contracts.
"whats with the for profit in america stuff?"
It's exactly what it says. This is the United States, a capitalist, free market country. Private business are created for the sole purpose of making a profit. Any business in America that cannot make a profit either (a) liquidates, or (b) restructures, usually in the form of lower labor costs, to return to profitability. That's what the NBA is doing. Nothing radical at all, it's quite normal and happens every day.
"shouldn't both groups have to compromise?"
Tell that to the players. The owners wanted to eliminate guaranteed contracts and implement a hard carp. Players barked and said they wouldn't even consider them as options for discussion. So the owners backed off, and offered to continue guaranteed contracts, continue the soft cap with the Larry Bird Exception, as long as salaries were reduced so the franchises can return to profitability, and the players said "no way, we refuse to change anything from what we currently have." Does that sound like compromise to you?
"What industry do you know of that guarantees a profit to all its participants?"
No industry "guarantees" a profit and no one in the NBA is looking to "guarantee" a profit. However, every private company in America either makes a profit or folds. The players will not accept folding (contraction) as an option. So the only other option to return to profitability is to reduce labor costs. This is basic economics. NBA needs to either fold 20 unprofitable teams or reduce costs to keep the franchises going. Your choice.
Both sides have to face that they need to make big changes. The union in this case is going to cut off the players nose despite their face. The owners are on the right track, but they have to take some of the blame for allowing some teams to be run so poorly. Yes some teams are run well and loose money but we are talking about the entire league as a whole so some teams are run poorly as well. The players offer to give back 500 million over the length of the new CBA is laughable. That is maybe 10-12 contracts in a league of what like 360 players. They players instead of trying to keep what they have should be offering a counter to help ensure that they still have 360 members to thier union.
I pretty much agree with what you said here. Certainly some teams are run poorly. I just don't agree that the quality of management is the reason some teams are profitable and some teams aren't. I don't think the two are related one bit (just looking at Isiah Thomas's Knicks being very profitable is enough to show that, in my opinion). The only teams that can make a profit under the existing CBA are teams in the big, wealthy cities that can charge a lot of money for tickets and have expensive TV contracts (or own their TV networks like the Knicks and, until Harris takes over, the Sixers).
Good point.
Memphis and Indiana have made the playoffs once in the last five years. In a league where the majority of teams make the playoffs, calling them well managed is a stretch. If you buy a team in a market that cannot support it financially, that's a poor business decision. Eat your losses or sell the team. That's the american way.
In most businesses, if you make poor decisions your business suffers and you lose money. That's the american way.
"But the Sixers home-game ticket revenue is strictly a Sixer operation. The Sixers local TV revenue is strictly a Sixer operation. That money stays with the Sixers."
As far as I can tell every home game the sixers play is against another NBA team and the attendance at those games is usually dictated by the star power of the other team.
The reason why nba salaries are so high is because NBA teams compete with each other for players and players choose to sign with whatever teams will pay them the most money. Isn't that the american way?
The owners also have a problem with contraction.
"Eat your losses or sell the team. That's the american way."
Actually no, the American way is to cut costs so that you can return to profitability. The American way isn't to give up, it's to fix it. There are a thousand examples of this in private industry.
"In most businesses, if you make poor decisions your business suffers and you lose money. That's the american way."
Right, and then the owner fixes it. In your world, the owner sits there and cries and raids his bank account until he goes bankrupt. In the real world, the owner restructures his company so that he can make a profit.
"The reason why nba salaries are so high is because NBA teams compete with each other for players and players choose to sign with whatever teams will pay them the most money. Isn't that the american way?"
Yes, if you want the NBA to be an 8-team league with franchises in Boston, NYC, LA, Chicago, Miami, and (maybe) Philly. I'm pretty sure the players are opposed that idea.
"The owners also have a problem with contraction."
Sure, some do (the ones who would be contracted) but they aren't trying to have it both ways. They know their are two options (contraction or reduction of labor costs). They have chosen reduction of labor costs (which happens to be better for the players than getting laid off). The players accept neither option (which shows that they are being obtuse and hey that's great, they can have fun sitting at home staring at the wall all day while the bills come in).
"If you buy a team in a market that cannot support it financially, that's a poor business decision."
The problem with this argument is that it applies to 3/4 of America's cities. Again I will ask, do you want an 8-team league?
Well I have to admit that you guys turned a boring subject and turned it into a fantastic read. And no trolls or thread hijackers got in the way, Kudos and thanks for the fantastic reading.
And I agree, we need to be pro owners on this.
Haha good stuff.
re the talk about Turner hiring his own coach above:
Iguodala actually hired his own coaches a couple years ago and that was construed as a sign that he wasn't a team player. Somehow it was him showing that he was better than his teammates.
I waited patiently for you to bring this up. There was a difference, at least to me. Iguodala was on the other end of the PCOM floor - during the season - with his hired help. Not working with the staff or anyone from the organization that was employing him, while other guys were practicing amongst themselves and working on non-mandated stuff.
And to top it off, his hired help didn't actually seem to be helping, which I'm sure you'd agree.
You've said this before, though I've never read it anywhere else. And the criticism was for Iguodala hiring a strength and conditioning coach, though maybe the shooting coach has helped. He could be a worse shooter than he is.
Yeah, I don't see how you are criticizing a guy for actually working on his game- out of his own pocket. It seems like in that case he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Becasue if he did not hire his own shooting and conditioning people you could call him out for not working on his game.


text:
Communications Minister
Sources close to NBN Co told The Australian Financial Review that Mr Conroy stopped discussions on the topic and insisted Mr Quigley remain in charge. On Thursday Mr Conroy moved to hose down the reports and reaffirm his backing of NBN Co's leadership ahead of an appearance by Mr Quigley at Senate estimates.
Mr Conroy's support means any push by NBN Co's board to change the leadership would be unlikely to succeed before the September election, due to constitutional arrangements that require the board and minister to consult.
"I will not confirm or deny what took place in a private meeting," Mr Conroy said. "Mike Quigley, Siobhan and the board have my full support."
TheFinancial Review reported on Thursday that Ms McKenna had sounded out the views of her colleagues on the board shortly after taking over the position in March.
Executive headhunter Paul Rush, of Robertson Search, said the minister's views would be of paramount importance in determining the leadership of NBN Co.
Mr Rush operates extensively in the Australian technology and telco ranks. He said it would be difficult for the board to make any top level changes against Senator Conroy's wishes because, even after seeking his approval to remove Mr Quigley, the board would need his agreement on a replacement.
According to NBN Co's constitution, the board can only remove the chief executive after "consultation" with the federal government, the company's owner.
It is not clear whether the NBN Co board was open to Ms McKenna's suggestion, but the meetings highlight the tensions within the organisation as it struggles with rollout deadlines.
The board met on Thursday afternoon, but a company spokesman said it was a regular meeting, and not one to discuss Mr Quigley's position.
Senior executives have left the company recently and there are suggestions that some have been unhappy with the culture within NBN Co. Mr Rush said it would be difficult for NBN Co to attract a top level replacement to the company due to the political nature of the role and the uncertainty about the future of the project.
"They should certainly be entertaining the idea of trying to bring in an interim executive to really drive some results, while we wait to see what happens after the federal election," Mr Rush said.
"The obvious call, certainly in the short term, would be to go for someone in the construction side of things. but what they really need is a leader who can engage with people . . . that seems to have been missing in the last 18 months to two years."
Mr Quigley's position after the election has already been called into question, with Coalition Communications spokesman
Earlier this month, the AFR revealed Mr Turnbull had canvassed former Telstra boss Ziggy Switkowski and other former Telstra executives to replace NBN co-directors as he prepares for negotiations with the telco.
The Australian Financial Review