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Using Joomla! 1.5.15, I have created a number of articles in the same category. I then created a menu item and linked it to Category List Layout and linked to this category, and when I clicked on the link on the frontend it displayed a list of the articles as expected.
I then created some more articles but in a different category, created another menu item and also selected Category List Layout and linked to this category. When I checked in the frontend there was no list of articles. I then check the previous menu item and it is now also blank.
If I change either menu item to any other type, e.g. Category Blog Layout, all the articles diplay correctly.
Any ideas what I could have done wrong?
The site is at: http://www.thecca.co.za/files/ and under the Main Menu the items How to... and General Info
It's an absolute pleasure.
Thanks for posting the answer even though no one replied to you originaly. I don't see that as often as I would like.
your solution helped me a lot and probably saved me a load of time too.
Thought it was worth registering to say thanks
Has this situation not happened to anyone? I have checked on another Joomla site and the category list works fine.
Would a reinstall of Joomla help? If so how to do without loosing all the configurations?
After digging for ages I eventually found the solution although a small issue of the chache obsured the result initially.
I entered the menu item in question and then under the Parameters (Components) I had to turn on the Category Title and also make it linkable. Initially this didn't make any difference until I cleared my Cache and then all displayed correctly.
Well, it happened to me too! fortunately you posted this. In my case I had to turn on "show article title".
Glad someone was helped.


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STRUGGLING reserve Ben Hopwood is hoping for a second chance with Poole Pirates – despite his first impression not going to plan.
The 23-year-old Rye House asset was drafted in on a month-long contract to replace Lee Smart under the fast track scheme three weeks ago.
Since securing four points as a guest against Belle Vue, however, Hopwood has struggled to with just four points from four subsequent meetings, three of which were at Wimborne Road.
Hopwood is due to appear in the final match of his initial stint against Wolverhampton next Wednesday and, although the Stoke Potters rider admits to showing erratic form, is urging Poole promoter Matt Ford to keep the faith.
On his future, Hopwood told the Daily Echo: "Hopefully I have shown enough promise to be given another shot.
"I'm not completely happy with my performances for Pirates but my first-choice engine is away being serviced. I have had to try new things every week.
"The timing of that wasn't ideal and it was just a case of getting dialled in on my new engine. I'm still not completely sure what works for me round Poole because I haven't had that many meetings here.
"I felt like I had some good speed against King's Lynn but a few silly mistakes crept in and I didn't get the starts on the night.
"I would love to have some more meetings for the Pirates, it's a massive club and one I have always wanted to ride for. We will just have to see what Matt Ford and Neil Middleditch (team manager) think.
"There is plenty more to come from me yet, I get my engine back over the weekend and, if I am here next week, I want to show the fans what I am capable of.
"If they go down another avenue then I haven't lost anything but it would be nice to stay in the side, show some progress and start getting more points because I did feel faster this week.
"Everything is up in the air. I've tried not to think about it because that was a problem in my first few meetings.
"I was really worried about having to perform and put too much pressure on myself. I had that mindset where I over-thought things.
"Hopefully I'll get the call. If not, I'll have to do better next time I get a chance."

subset: commoncrawl


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Madonna told Ryan Seacrest during a red carpet interview at the Grammy Awards Sunday that she wears grills on her teeth because she likes to piss people off. The 55-year-old also claims her 8-year-old son David designed her attire for the evening--which matched his--a Ralph Lauren ensemble-- a black suit/tuxedo, replete with an oversized black fedora. On little David the outfit was adorable. Madonna looked like--well, it was different, to say the least. At least she was covered up more than usual, as any 55-year-old woman should be--but not always the singer's standard. Thankfully while in the company of little David, she kept her Twitter hashtags to a far less racist level.
"We're both working the Ralph Lauren angle," Madonna told Seacrest. "For this look, I followed his lead. He dressed me tonight. He wanted me to dress like him, so I obeyed him."
The Material Girl accessorized her Ralph Lauren ensemble with a cane, too--purportedly a result of a dance injury.
"Yeah, I'm grillin'," Madonna said of her ridiculous mouthful of glittering mess. "It pisses everybody off when I wear my grill, so that's why I wear it."
She also added that she wears the mouth piece "when it matches my outfit. When I don't have to eat. Actually, I've learned to eat with my grill in."
Wouldn't everyone be honored to watch that?
Little David complained while on the red carpet that his mother promised she'd get him grills, but so far hadn't come through on her promise.
"She said she'd get me grills for this birthday," he protested, to which Madonna quickly put on as much of a "Mom" demeanor as she could manage, adding, "I know, but we haven't had time. We have to go to the dentist to get a mold!"
The Queen of Pop, @Madonna has arrived. #GRAMMYs pic.twitter.com/86fZoAldme
— The GRAMMYs (@TheGRAMMYs) January 27, 2014
When asked what she was singing or with whom she was performing at the 2014 Grammy Awards, she replied with her usual holier than thou demeanor--the "Mom" act long gone.
"I wouldn't do any old song with any old artist, but I feel like history is going to be made tonight," she teased. "So I want to be part of that."
Madonna, of course, came on stage and sang while a pre-arrange group in the audience, most of whom were same-sex couples, tied the knot.
So what's your take on Madonna at the Grammy Awards? Were you glad she kept some clothes on? Did you feel like she performed more on the red carpet than she did on the stage?
For some--who, although they appreciate her talent feel she's starting to look like a chewed up and spit out skinny pre-teen, it was plenty. Others, no doubt, wish she'd headlined the show.
Image via Twitter


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Tournaments / Re: 2014 Roc vs. Buzzz at Swope Park on September 28th« on: July 25, 2015, 02:47:45 PM »
September 2015 is coming up. I just had a weird idea for the 2015 RvB that I'd like to toss out: temporary tattoos! They could look something like this, only cleaned up into nice line art:
They can be made in small runs and ordered online from a number of vendors with just a week or two of lead time, for $1 each for a 2"x2" or about $2 each for 4"x4" or the like. Would people want to temporarily festoon their upper arms, calves, faces, or other appendages with the mascot of their team, or are we all too mature for such foolishness?
How about if you can have the bee helplessly dangling in the Roc's talons? Now that would be a stamp worthy of all my Rocs!!
I guess for the other side you could make one of the bee stinging the Roc, but then the bee would die... it's a win win for the Roc!!!


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A system dynamics approach for urban water reuse planning: a case study from the Great Lakes region
- First Online:
- Citations
- 932 Downloads
Water reclamation and reuse practices are recently receiving growing attention due to increasing water scarcity, concerns about the effect of wastewater discharges on receiving water, and availability of high-performing and cost-effective water reuse technologies. However, incorporation of water reuse schemes into water/wastewater infrastructure systems is a complex decision making process, involving various economical, technological, and environmental criteria. System dynamics (SD) allows modeling of complex systems and provides information about the temporal and feedback behavior of the system. In this sense, a SD model of the existing water/wastewater system in Kalamazoo-Michigan, an urban area in the Great Lakes region, was created with the hypothetical incorporation of water reuse. The model simulates and optimizes the overall water system cost (including water, wastewater and water reuse components), accounting for future scenarios of population, economic growth and climate change. Results indicate significant levels of water reuse after an infrastructure build delay. The model also indicates that a decision to implement water reuse yields remarkably lower water withdrawals and lower water treatment costs even in a location with a relatively abundant water supply like Kalamazoo. This study emphasizes the fact that a true understanding of the practice of water reuse cannot be achieved without taking regional and climatic parameters into account.


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Boeing vote in Washington could have ripple effect in the Lowcountry
WCBD-TV: News, Weather, and Sports for Charleston, SC
From our News Partners at WCBD-TV:
Wednesday, thousands of union workers in Washington state will vote to accept or reject an offer from Boeing to build the new 777X plane. That vote could have a ripple effect across the country, including the Lowcountry.
The vote is for an eight year contract extension to land Boeing's 777X deal. A "yes" vote preserves tens of thousands of jobs in Washington. A "no" vote could benefit South Carolina as Boeing threatened to take the deal elsewhere.
Jack Jones of Boeing SC, said he can't speculate on where the 777X deal would land if workers in Washington vote against the contract, but confirmed the company is looking at options.
According to NBC News King 5 in Washington, those machinists planning to vote no, cite changes in the retirement plan and health insurance coverage, flat wage growth and slower progression for new hires.
Boeing officials said employees in Washington make more money and have better benefits than other workers, like those in South Carolina.
To sweeten the deal in Washington, the company offered a $10-thousand dollar signing bonus and higher performance payments. In response, the state offered Boeing an $8.7 billion dollar incentive to keep the company producing on the west coast.
The vote is expected at 9:00 PM PST in Washington.
Image courtesy of WCBD-TV.


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November 1, 2012 from 6pm to 11:30pm – Dillingers Pub & Grill Our 8 ounce sirloin burger with any topping and fries for a measly Three bucks ! Its a MUST try ! Organized by Dean Patalano | Type: food & drink
November 1, 2012 from 6pm to 11:45pm – Sissy McGinty's Hey All!! Just wanted to let you know that given the events this week and what not, Derrick and I have decided to postpone Trivia Night this Thursday, however, don't fret, because we will return Ne… Organized by Dave | Type: nightlife
November 1, 2012 from 9pm to 11pm – Rest-au-Rant live original music FREE Organized by RaR bar / Rest-au-Rant | Type: arts & entertainment, nightlife


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Home | Listserv
| Creative Archives
| Scholarly Archives |
|Carol Brockfield
June 2009
I sometimes like to visit my mind
We speak of many things both trivial and grand.
Its a quiet chat
All these artifactsnames
Yet turning them over between us
Imperfect Talisman
They follow nose-to-tail round
Some fish eyes stare wide, some
black/white, this and that
One pair weakens to split,
drop yet another
the stain applied so long ago
Banana Apples
We chased the calf to the far pasture,
played ghost through new-washed sheets.
I was already smiling, had my arm
and my panties were showing.
now only bright pictures on a dark page,
Bees and Things
We sat in a park once and talked about bees.
We went on for a good half-hour
Or maybe the old honey between us
Aboard the Coast Starlight
People leave my life like
Here in the mountains, snaking
Whistle pales ahead.
Predawn stop at a sleeping station.
Sometimes I can see beyond the window.
Sometimes I can see beyond the window.
|Carol Brockfield crayoned poems on her kindergarten paper. Long since she has graduated to a computer keyboard and laser printer, and her work has appeared in several college anthologies, The Hiss Quarterly, and flashquake. She is active in the local poetry scene and organizes critique groups, workshops, and readings as head of the Rogue Valley Chapter of the Oregon State Poetry Association.


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Set in the heart of London's beautiful Regent's Park, an independent, not-for-profit higher education provider is celebrating its newly awarded university status. That's no mean feat – Regent's University is one of just two UK institutions outside of the state sector to be given the title of university in more than a century.
"We made it one of our objectives when I arrived here six years ago," says vice-chancellor Aldwyn Cooper, "but I don't think anyone expected to achieve it quite so rapidly. It's been terrific teamwork here from everybody, and we're absolutely delighted."
In 2012, Regent's was granted the power to award its own taught degrees, but university status presents even more opportunities for the future.
"It means other countries will put us on their 'recommended' list, and other first-class institutions will collaborate more willingly and effectively with us for the benefit of our staff and students," he explains.
With 142 nationalities represented on campus, Regent's boasts that its students and graduates get the chance to build global contact networks, and that this boosts their employability. Given that 78% of Regent's graduates are in employment or further study within six months of leaving – and that 84% of those in employment take up graduate-level jobs six months after leaving – the university's success rate is beyond doubt.
"We make sure our students really do understand things from a global perspective," says Cooper. "Our average class size is 12-15 – and there may well be 12-15 nationalities in there. They learn from each other as well as learning from their tutors. That makes our students confident and creative, as well as very good communicators."
Even so, 18% of Regent's intake comes from the UK – and no wonder; at a time when young people and parents are fretting about the cost and value of university tuition fees, they're reassured to know that students are the priority at Regent's. Its charitable status means that income from fees is used to improve the campus environment and put resources back into teaching and learning, and this is reflected in the high level of contact hours – about 15-20 – scheduled each week.
"We don't have the limitations state institutions have in this country in terms of the fees they can charge," says Cooper. "Our fees are more than the average state institution, but we are a charity – all of the money that we take in goes into our public-benefit activities and extending the student experience.
"And while our students may pay more across three years, they recoup that within two years after they leave – they get better jobs, and they're on a very strong lifetime career pathway and earning profile."
Regent's is also committed to public benefit and offers scholarships and bursaries that ensure students can participate on academic merit alone.
There's a broad range of courses of study on offer too, with British and American degree programmes from undergraduate to doctorate level covering everything from finance to the creative arts. The university's 3,300 undergraduates and 1,200 postgraduate students make Regent's the largest provider of higher education in the UK outside the state sector – and its intake is expanding.
Despite the ever-growing student body and breadth of subjects on offer, including the recent addition of the Regent's School of Fashion & Design, based on Marylebone High Street, Cooper and his team remain committed to a small, personalised collegiate focus.
"Our staff know the students' names, and our students know each other – not just on the course they're on, but across the whole institution," he says. "We are committed to maintaining that atmosphere as we expand. It is hugely valued by our students."
For more information on how Regent's University can enhance your career prospects visit the website.


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It's increasingly clear that U.S. consumers are eager for policymakers to establish rules protecting online privacy. After several years of awaiting effective industry self-regulation to protect consumers, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) last year conceded that self-regulation alone was insufficient and recommended that Congress act.
Congress must enact a privacy policy combining three key elements: technological tools, industry self-regulation and enforceable privacy rights.
Technological tools: I have long believed in technology's potential to solve some of the problems it poses. I'm particularly encouraged by the growing cadre of software engineers and entrepreneurs who have developed and begun to market technologies that permit consumers to enhance their own privacy.
In addition, the Platform for Privacy Preferences (P3P) holds much promise. P3P enables consumers to indicate electronically to Web site operators how they should treat personal data. At the very least, letting the computers "do the talking" would save consumers the toil of clicking on the privacy policy of each Web site they visit to view its policy. Yet P3P can only truly work if it's widely available and if the private sector honors consumers' expressed privacy preferences.
We must also recognize that privacy-enhancing tools have policy limitations. Relying solely on technology puts privacy at the trailing edge of a never-ending process of technological one-upmanship. Moreover, consumers can't be expected to fully protect themselves through technology, because not every consumer -- at least in the short term -- will be savvy enough to utilize such technology. That's why remedies beyond technological tools are necessary.
Industry self-regulation: Ongoing efforts of certain online companies to develop self-regulatory solutions are quite laudable, and many companies today have posted online privacy policies. But having a posted privacy policy isn't synonymous with having a good privacy policy. Indeed, many voluntary online "protections" are so riddled with loopholes that they render their postings meaningless.
For privacy notices to work, they must be conspicuous and in plain language. It serves neither consumers nor online commerce if posted notices are hard to find or difficult to understand.
The current lack of legal privacy requirements also creates an inverse system of rewards and risks for the industry. If a company posts a privacy policy and then subsequently violates it, the FTC can act under its authority to police "unfair" or "deceptive" practices.
Conversely, if a company doesn't post a policy and then engages in personal information highjacking, it's legally able to continue on its merry way. The company is shielded by the "privacy paradox": As long as it never promises to protect privacy, it can never be accused of deceiving its customers.
This situation makes no sense, and it's time to change it.
Enforceable privacy rights: Our national privacy policy must ultimately include a governmental role. Congressional action can factor in new technology and encompass what industry self-regulation offers, but it can also deal flexibly and realistically with the limitations of technology and self-regulation in fully protecting consumers.
New consumer protections must include conspicuous privacy notices; consumers' rights to exercise choice over the collection, reuse or disclosure of personal data; the rigght to access information collected about them; and effective enforcement of those rights. Also, these essential, government-backed protections must include more stringent protections for health and financial data.
Our current national policy embodies legal online privacy protections only for children under age 12, while everyone over the age of 13 must rely on voluntary industry efforts to protect their personal privacy. This policy is unfair and serves neither consumers nor online commerce well. Congress must act soon to safeguard privacy rights and individual freedom in the online environment.
This story, "Congress Must Act Soon on Privacy Rights" was originally published by Computerworld.


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Read more about the extraordinary schools that give India's Dalit girls a chance at a better life by clicking here.
The pain is perceptible in nine-year-old Shankar's voice as he recounts how he's made to sit at the back of the class with other children from a similar "low caste" group. He says his teacher doesn't wish to accidentally touch them, keeping them as far away as possible from the rest of the children. His peers from the "upper caste" call him an "untouchable"; when he complains to the teachers, they see no issue. "You are untouchable – what else should they call you?"
His sister, who is 8, is asked to clean the classroom – that's her task because she's a girl and an "untouchable." At lunch, Shankar says the children from the other castes are served food provided by the government, while his fellow caste children are asked to wait outside the classroom; should any food remain after the teachers and "upper caste" children have eaten, it may then be offered to Shankar and other children from the "lower castes."
The children's parents point out that a child who's gone hungry for several meals is unlikely to be able to pay proper attention to classroom instruction. Shankar's eyes well up with tears as he responds to questions about life as a Dalit child attending the local school. Other Dalit children tell of similar discrimination, complaining that the teachers don't pay attention to them, call them outcasts and run down their abilities and enthusiasm for education. That's why the Dalit children rarely go to school; their visits reinforce the feelings of persecution and discrimination.
Shankar's story has been captured by our documentary (supported by Unicef) that was shot in remote villages in eastern India. The situation, of course, varies from state to state in rural areas. The Dalits, or Scheduled Castes, constitute 17 per cent of India's population, and nearly 80 per cent of them live in rural areas. For a long time, they have suffered from discriminatory access to educational services, as the rigidities of the caste system laid out their professional roles at birth, requiring no acquisition of knowledge or education. The result is wide gaps in the literacy rates and education levels between Scheduled Castes and the "others."
India's education policies have addressed the differentials in enrolment rates by improving the infrastructure of state-managed schools, providing free uniforms and books for children from poor Scheduled Caste families, free lunch for all poor children attending school, and scholarships for Scheduled Caste girls. These policies need to be further strengthened to address the discrimination faced by the "untouchable" children within schools and inside classrooms.
So how do we encourage progressive attitudes and equal, non-discriminatory access for children from the "lower castes"? Measures such as national education policies, legislation and a credible threat of prompt action against discriminatory practices in educational institutions, and training strategies focused on sensitizing teachers can explicitly promote an equal access approach to education.
Shankar says he wants to become a police inspector, and his sister Miss India. Both cite education as the key to their future dreams.
Sukhadeo Thorat is a professor of economics at Jawaharlal Nehru University and chairman of the Indian Council of Social Science Research in New Delhi. Nidhi Sadana Sabharwal is a principal research fellow at the Indian Institute of Dalit Studies in New Delhi.Report Typo/Error
Follow us on Twitter: @globeandmail


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Gare de l'Est is a railway station in Paris, France.
Behind the scenesEdit
In The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles episode "Austria, March 1917", Indiana Jones meets with Colonel Belmond and Major Delon at a station in Paris. However, the US and UK novelizations of the episode, The Secret Peace and The Secret Treaty, identify it as two different railway stations. The Gare de Lyon in The Secret Peace is the Gare de l'Est in The Secret Treaty.


text: In case you might have previously been harmed in some form of car accident, don't hesitate to speak with a real personal injury attorney. Lawyers could perform to successfully help you persevere against those massive insurance companies. Once again, don't think that an insurer will surely give over a check to you. Injured parties must have a great claim together with a law firm that is prepared to do business with them every move of the way.


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A British engineer dubbed Indiana James has stunned archaeologists by claiming their theories on how pyramids were built are wrong.
Peter James said he believes ancient Egyptians formed the structures by piling up rubble on the inside and attaching bricks later.
His shock claim challenges hundreds of years of accepted belief that the pyramids were built with giant blocks carried up huge ramps.
The structural engineer reckons that would be impossible as the ramps would have had to have been at least a quarter of a mile long to get the right angle for the bricks to be taken to such great heights.
Mr James, who has spent the past 20 years studying the pyramids, said: "Under the current theories, to lay the two million stone blocks required the Egyptians would had to have laid a large block once every three minutes on long ramps.
"If that happened, there would still be signs that the ramps had been there, and there aren't any.
"I'm going to have a war with archaeologists. They will say: 'How would you know? You're not an archaeologist.' But if you wanted a house built would you use me or an archaeologist? "Archaeologists have never had the engineering experience."
Mr James, an engineer for 54 years, and his team at Cintec International in Newport, South Wales, are world leaders in restoring ancient structures.


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we are going on the conquest in october and would like to know if anyone took the fiesta party boat in cozumel. also are you allowed to bring on liquor and how did you do it?
We have gone on the Fiesta Party boat in Cozumel several times & always had a good time. At the time, children were permitted, but I see now that has been changed. The beach where it takes you is real nice and has numerous "toys" such as kayaks, tubes, etc. and further out in the water, there is a water trampoline & "ice berg" to climb on. There is also a area set off for snorkeling. On the boat, they have the free rum punches & beer & they take the drinks onto the beach when they dock, so you can drink even when you are lounging on the beach. We are not big drinkers at all, but it is a fun time. The boat ride over is about 45 min. & is fairly quiet. You have about an hour at the beach, and then return to the boat for the ride back to the ship. This is when the fun really starts - dancing, contests, etc. There is a little shopping area, and a small zoo in the back, although with the hurricane of last year, I'm not sure that is still there. There is also a covered pool.
|All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:34 AM.


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Sat Dec 15, 2012, 04:49 PM
Junkdrawer (27,993 posts)
Adam Lanza Shot Victims at Close Range with Semi-Automatic Rifle
Source: ABC News
Multiple sources have told ABC News that Adam Lanza used a Bushmaster .223 semi-automatic rifle at close range to kill children and adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday.
Two handguns were also found at the scene, and a fourth weapon was found nearby. The weapons discovered at the school apparently belonged to a family member, possibly his mother, according to authorities.
Lanza, 20, forced his way into Sandy Hook on Friday morning and killed 20 children and six adults before committing suicide. He drove to the school after shooting his mother in the face at their home.
The weapons that police recovered from the scene included a Glock 9-mm handgun, a Sig Sauer 9-mm handgun and a Bushmaster rifle. Police also found .223 shell casings. Lanza was wearing a bullet-proof vest.
Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/connecticut-shooter-adam-lanza-mothers-guns/story?id=17984499
We need an AWB Ban NOW!
141 replies, 25899 views
|141 replies
Adam Lanza Shot Victims at Close Range with Semi-Automatic Rifle (Original post)
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Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:00 PM
HooptieWagon (17,064 posts)
1. Thats a popular hunting rifle.
It is not a weapon capable of automatic fire. Neither it or the shooter's handguns would be affected by an assault weapon ban.
The facts are that while automatic weapons (actual assault weapons, as defined by function as opposed to style) are currently legal, they are still tightly regulated, quite expensive, hard to get, and are almost never used in a crime.
So, while you are free to call for an assault weapon ban; it would no more have prevented yesterday's tragedy than a Sharia Law ban would have prevented 9-11.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:03 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
3. That's why I want a prohibition on all firearms in the United States
So your point is well taken. Thanks.
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #3)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:39 PM
backwoodsbob (6,001 posts)
38. and that would put repukes in charge for generations
I see your point...thanks but no thanks.
Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #38)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:52 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
40. Erm...why?
Response to backwoodsbob (Reply #38)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:40 PM
leveymg (36,418 posts)
126. The vast majority of NRA members are GOOP, anyway.
Particularly the ones who are that attached to their guns that they would vote on that single issue. I'm afraid that argument doesn't fly when you take it apart.
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #3)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:06 PM
UndahCovah (125 posts)
42. 2nd amendment
How do you propose to circumvent it? Look, you cannot criminalize 150million Americans who own guns. I support the constitution. All of it.
Response to UndahCovah (Reply #42)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:12 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
43. Yah sorry - by prohibiting all firearms I mean repealing the 2nd amendment
I agree - the law is the law, even though I don't think the law says what you think it means. Just to be safe though - repeal it. Or as Ripley says, nuke it from orbit - its the only way to be sure.
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #43)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:30 PM
UndahCovah (125 posts)
44. Which would take ratification from how many states?
Never mind that such a thing as the repeal of an amendment that is part of the bill of rights would never even reach the point of requiring ratification. Not going to happen.
Response to UndahCovah (Reply #44)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:33 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
45. Nice User Name
Why did you choose it? Just curious.
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #45)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:38 PM
UndahCovah (125 posts)
48. Childhood nickname
I wish I had used something else though. I've gotten untold grief from people assuming that I'm an 'undercover troll'. As if an actual troll would choose something so obvious.
Response to UndahCovah (Reply #48)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:22 PM
Euphoria (448 posts)
51. yeah, right
Response to Euphoria (Reply #51)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:39 PM
UndahCovah (125 posts)
54. Whatever
If an individual is so simple-minded as to think that a malicious intruder would use something so obvious...
Response to UndahCovah (Reply #54)
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:35 AM
Rex (65,616 posts)
141. Okay obvious troll
Don't you CC folks ever get tired of getting pwned?
Response to UndahCovah (Reply #44)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:05 AM
xtraxritical (3,576 posts)
67. No repeal, just a SCOTUS that interprets "a well regulated militia" properly. Duh.
Response to xtraxritical (Reply #67)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:47 AM
TroglodyteScholar (5,477 posts)
71. ^^^This n/t
Response to UndahCovah (Reply #42)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:36 PM
PA Democrat (11,353 posts)
101. Do you think the founders envisioned 20 six and seven year-olds being slaughtered
with a weapon with a high capacity magazine when they wrote the second amendment?
Remember the original constitution also permitted slavery (Article 1 Section 9).
The problem is that thanks to the NRA and its supporters, that REASONABLE gun legislation cannot even be discussed.
Response to PA Democrat (Reply #101)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:29 PM
primavera (5,191 posts)
130. Funny, but gun nuts never seem to respond on that point - n/t
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #3)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:24 PM
slackmaster (60,567 posts)
98. No, you don't really want a prohibition on ALL firearms in the United States.
You want only government employees, i.e. police and military, to have firearms.
And armed police force would be essential to the process of disarming non-police, and to ensuring that the non-police population remains disarmed.
Your position is authoritarian.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:16 PM
underpants (126,760 posts)
5. People hunt with 5.56mm NATO rounds?
I am simply asking.
As I understood it when I was in the Army those rounds tumble so they would not be a good choice for hunting - I know hunting only from my inlaws.
Response to underpants (Reply #5)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:33 PM
HooptieWagon (17,064 posts)
7. The rifle was described as a .223
I'm not an expert, but I don't think it's the same as a NATO round. The Bushmaster rifle is made by Remington, if I recall correctly.
The "assault" style has no effect on how the weapon functions. It would work the same if made with a traditional wooden stock. My understanding is many hunters and target shooters prefer the modern stock because it is easier to adjust to owner's size, is more comfortable, more durable, and in some cases the owner simply likes the "look".
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #7)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:06 PM
underpants (126,760 posts)
13. I asked this last night and got some good information - it is a NATO round
Response to underpants (Reply #5)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:15 PM
NickB79 (13,314 posts)
16. Yes, it is legal in some states for larger game
Minnesota just made it deer-legal a few years ago. They do make ammo specifically for hunting that uses heavier, soft-point rounds that hold together and mushroom instead of tumble and fragment.
Response to NickB79 (Reply #16)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:16 PM
underpants (126,760 posts)
31. Okay. Thanks that was why I was asking. n/t
Response to NickB79 (Reply #16)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:26 PM
slackmaster (60,567 posts)
99. I believe you mean SMALLER game
Definitely too small for elk no matter what kind of bullet you load it with.
Response to slackmaster (Reply #99)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:08 PM
NickB79 (13,314 posts)
122. It's deer-legal here in MN
And we can grow some large deer up in the North Woods.
Response to underpants (Reply #5)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:35 PM
UndahCovah (125 posts)
46. Some people do
.30-30 is more common for deer and such, but people in general hunt with any caliber you could think of. .223 is not quite the same thing as 5.56, BTW.
If interested in knowing more about the differene, follow this link: http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html
Be warned, the article MAY POTENTIALLY have rightwing nuttery in it. I just googled and scanned it quick and it seems to explain the difference better than I could, but I didn't read it thoroughly.
Response to UndahCovah (Reply #46)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 10:40 AM
Bandit (21,475 posts)
93. In many states 22 caliber guns are illegal for anything but small critters.
223 caliber is still a 22 caliber bullet and by the way it is exactly the same as a 5.56 millimeter which happens to be the NATO round as is the 7.62 millimeter or 308 caliber.
Response to Bandit (Reply #93)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:10 AM
UndahCovah (125 posts)
94. .223 and 5.56
are different rounds. They can be used interchangably in some firearms, but there in a pressure difference in the chamber, which can destroy some guns.
And regardless of what the law is, plenty of rednecks just bang away at animals with whatever gun they happen to grab. Just like in Ireland, hunting with dogs is illegal but its become an epidemic problem.
Response to underpants (Reply #5)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:16 AM
krispos42 (47,635 posts)
80. Yeah, for varmits
Well, the civilian equivalent, the .223 Remington.
In some states it's considered too small to be used on deer, but when it's used for hunting, it's generally for "varmits"... coyotes and smaller. Feral cats and dogs, groundhogs, woodchucks, racoons, possums, that sort of thing. A good rifle with a good shooter can hit woodchucks at 300 yards.
You can reasonably use it on deer if you keep the range short and use an appropriate hunting bullet. The ammo makers produce tons of different .223 Rem loadings. Most of them are intended either for plinking, target shooting, or hunting varmits, but there are heavier-built "medium" game bullets you can use on deer.
From what I read, in military usage, the non-expanding bullets tend to tumble when they hit flesh, but only if the bullet is within the first 150 or so yards of flight.
Response to underpants (Reply #5)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:11 PM
DLine (397 posts)
106. 5.56 is too small for most game
Not saying you are doing this. But people need to stop judging rifles by how they look. This is a 7mag rifle with WAY more power than the rifle pictured in the OP. But because it doesn't look as fancy, it doesn't draw as much attention from people who may be anti-gun but not very knowledgeable about them.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:34 PM
RC (25,592 posts)
8. Someone posted a video of a bushmaster with a slide stock that turned it into a fully automatic
Response to RC (Reply #8)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:00 AM
Clames (2,038 posts)
77. Not fully automatic.
Slide stocks take advantage of bump-firing, basically pulling the trigger very quickly with minimal reset. Can be done without the stock. It's a stupid practice as civilian AR's for the most part do not have the military-grade parts for sustained firing like that.
Response to Clames (Reply #77)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 11:59 AM
RC (25,592 posts)
95. It only has to work long enough to take out the next group gathering.
Slide stocks are another example of "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck..."
The duck test is a humorous term for a form of inductive reasoning. This is its usual expression:
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
The test implies that a person can identify an unknown subject by observing that subject's habitual characteristics. It is sometimes used to counter abstruse arguments that something is not what it appears to be.
Response to RC (Reply #95)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:26 PM
Clames (2,038 posts)
102. Fact is they really don't work.
Given the fact they are terribly unreliable and frequently cause the rifle to jam with difficult to clear double feeds. Given the choice I'd rather face a shooter who has one of those things equipped as they'll be far less able to hit what they are aiming for and will probably jam the rifle before getting many shots off.
Response to Clames (Reply #102)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:11 PM
askeptic (478 posts)
129. Having fired full-auto in the military at the range, Amen to that!
I never fired my rifle full auto after that (wasn't a ground-pounder so didn't carry a rifle often), but it is almost impossible to hit anything in auto as the recoil drive the rifle upward. And your ammo is gone in seconds...
looked to me like it would be a good way to get killed in the bush...
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:41 PM
muriel_volestrangler (84,398 posts)
9. You could ban rifles that hold multiple rounds
That way, people could still hunt with single shot rifles.
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #9)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:58 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
11. Well I'm against all hunting
But that would certainly be a better alternative to what we have now. It would probably make the past time itself a little less ridiculous and cruel in my eyes.
Why can't hunters just bow hunt? Too difficult? Harder to hit water fowl?
I know some bow hunters and they have some pretty nasty things to say about people who hunt in deer stands with rifles.
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #11)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:18 PM
XemaSab (60,212 posts)
32. If you're concerned about cruelty
bow hunting often does not kill the animal right away. Learning how to follow a blood trail is part of bow hunting.
Response to XemaSab (Reply #32)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:28 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
35. You're right
I'm dumb. I should have researched that better instead of listening to these people down here.
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #9)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:17 PM
DLine (397 posts)
108. Not an option for those of us who spend any time in bear country.
Not that I would do this under anything other than a last resort. But if comes down to me and a bear, I do not want to have to load another round to put another one in him.
Response to DLine (Reply #108)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:34 PM
muriel_volestrangler (84,398 posts)
109. I will admit that self-defence against a bear is one time I can see multiple rounds are needed
and not something I has considered. A special licence for that would seem reasonable.
Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #109)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:34 PM
primavera (5,191 posts)
131. Then again...
... one could just leave the bears alone and not invade their habitat, at which point it wouldn't be a problem. Don't we say that people have a right to use lethal force when defending their homes? It seems to me that a bear deserves the same consideration.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:00 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
12. These "hunting" rifles are easily and often "converted" into fully automatic
Sure, these conversions may be "illegal", but so is jaywalking.
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #12)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:09 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
14. It's not easy at all
it requires a skilled gun smith to modify the reciever.
And its not like jaywalking- jaywalking doesnt get you 10 years in club fed
Response to bossy22 (Reply #14)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:28 PM
intaglio (8,170 posts)
21. If you believe that you are deceived or deliberately deceiving
The Drop In Auto Sear (DIAS) is a device that is adds an auto sear to an otherwise semi-automatic AR-15 so that when used with M-16 fire control parts including an M-16 carrier produces full auto fire. The DIAS is referred to as a "Drop In" as this piece can be added to an AR-15 without drilling a receiver for a traditional auto sear. Following is a photo of a registered Drop In Auto Sear (rDIAS) made by JCB and registered before 1986.
I hope my link vanishes but it also gives instructions on timing the sear.
Despite what you are told in the Gungeon it is not a complex or difficult job - just very illegal.
Response to intaglio (Reply #21)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:32 PM
NickB79 (13,314 posts)
22. The DIAS is considered a machine gun in and of itself
Yes, a little hunk of metal is the machine gun. Note how they say it's a pre-1986 registered component? They also retail for approximately $8000 and up.
Response to NickB79 (Reply #22)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:45 PM
intaglio (8,170 posts)
27. And did you look at how crudely machined it is?
don't you think that somebody with access to a simple vertical mill could not make it? It you don't then go on a Trade College course in machine tool use and learn how easy it is to produce high tolerance parts.
Response to intaglio (Reply #27)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:49 AM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
83. You could make a real deal M-16 in a middle school metal shop
if you really cared enough.
The DIAS only works on certain rifles produced before a certain year (latest made in 1986), per federal law, and enthusiastically enforced by the BATFE.
Response to intaglio (Reply #21)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:47 AM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
82. For an AR 15 made prior to 1986, that MIGHT be possible, depending
on the manufacturer.
Response to bossy22 (Reply #14)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:33 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
23. You are either willfully ignorant about these "conversion kits"
or you did not even bother to look at the video and links in my
OP (at the link provided).
Either way, you are on the wrong side of this issue IMHO, on
the wrong side of history, the side of death-dealing, destruction
and misery. Good luck with that..
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #23)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:29 PM
slackmaster (60,567 posts)
100. How often are converted AR-15s used in crimes?
The answer is that it is extremely rare. About 10 years ago some Mexican drug cartel members were arrested for doing illegal conversions in Southern California.
The state and federal penalties for doing that are so severe that they deter people.
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #12)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:44 PM
HooptieWagon (17,064 posts)
39. The sale of the kits is also tightly regulated.
And it does take a high level of machinist skills to install them and make the gun function reliably. The penalty to doing the conversion for a non-permitted owner is so high, gunsmiths wouldn't take the chance. Loss of license, big fine, and jail time.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #39)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:55 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
41. Not according to this MEDIA MATTERS source
"Williamson's account is in fact a highly misleading characterization of the accessibility of fully automatic weapons. The reality is that semi-automatic rifles, such as AK-47s or AR-15s, are widely available and sold at gun shows from private sellers that do not run background checks. Further conversion kits that make these rifles indistinguishable from machine guns are also widely available at gun shows. "
Were you simply unaware of the gun show phenomenon? AKA a literal loose cannon, and a proverbial loophole the size of Texas.
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #41)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:51 AM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
84. You can't spit at a gun show without hitting at least 3 cops.
On duty, off duty, and retired. To say nothing of federal agents.
That source is full of shit on the auto conversion kits. 10 year minimum sentence.
(Not full of shit on the background check thing. That part is accurate.)
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #84)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 07:17 AM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
87. I rest my case
yes, gun shows crawling with all manner of cops, yet still these little "kits" seem
to be getting sold to whoever wants them, just "under the table" (wink - wink, nod-nod).
And these are all the "good cops" ... you know, they would NEVER have any truck with playing
fast and loose with gun laws, and would go after the NRA itself, if it was guilty of breaking
any gun law.
Nothing to see here.
Fairy tales can be comforting, that is true.
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #87)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:35 AM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
90. No, they aren't.
Otherwise you could point to a slew of crimes committed with these supposedly converted weapons.
LAPD Detective Jimmy Trahin, testifying before the California State Assembly (Feb. 13,1989):
"over 4,000 guns that came into the custody of our unit last year, less than 120 would be classified as this military-type weapon. Of those, only ten or less than ten were actually illegally converted to fully-automatic machine gun stocks. Why? Because these military style assault weapons of today are not easily and readily convertible without extensive knowledge of modifications to the weapon and/or substitution of available parts. (source)
These military style assault weapons of today are not easily and readily convertible without extensive knowledge and modifications to the weapon and/or substitution of available parts.
Now, in my 12 years within the unit, considering the enormous amount of firearms that we have taken into custody, and that's over fifty-thousand, I would say, and these included ones from the hardcore gangs, and from the drug dealers, our unit has never, ever, had one AK-47 converted, one Ruger Mini-14 converted, an H&K 91, 93 never converted, an AR-180 never converted. So this media blitz of many of these assault weapons, or supposedly military style weapons are being converted to full automatic is not true.
FBI crime statistics with firearms usually denote if the weapon was fully automatic. Surely you can point to a whole bunch of them, right?
(you're falling for an urban legend)
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #87)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:51 AM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
91. By the way, I'll save you the effort of searching.
The only major crime committed with the mythical unicorn converted weapons you are describing, was the North Hollywood Shootout.
If these are as common as you say, surely you can point to ten or so similar crimes.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #91)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:58 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
104. IHOP in Carson City NV * Sept 2011 * 5 dead, 14 wounded using semi-auto converted to fully auto
"Furlong said many people initally questioned why someone didnt try to stop the shooter. But witnesses and videos confirmed later that the attack happened so fast, no one could have, Fulong said.
Sencion moved fast and shot from the hip. His Norinco MAK90 assault rifle had been modified to fire as an automatic. Officials still dont know who converted it into an illegal machine gun.
The shooting at the Carson City IHOP restaurant was the worst in that citys history but was only one in a long list of recent mass shootings that have killed and injured hundreds across the country."
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #104)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:59 PM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
105. There's one.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #105)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:17 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
107. Two counting No. Hollywood one you posted, and still counting. ~nt
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #107)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:42 PM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
110. You are furthering a meme that these conversions are widely available.
"Further conversion kits that make these rifles indistinguishable from machine guns are also widely available at gun shows."
It's bullshit. You have two instances of them being used in crimes (one of them I supplied to you).
Since merely POSSESSING one, unassembled, is a 10 year felony, one might assume a correlation between people possessing them, and using them in crimes.
There is a dearth of people using them in crimes.
Remember, this is a hypothetical 'kit' of metal parts that, if you held it in your hand, could send you to federal prison for 10 years.
Where are these 'widely available' kits? Nowhere. They are not 'widely available' at gun shows, period. The process to modify a semi-auto, specifically one produced after 1986, is arduous and requires significant modification and NEW parts. (N Hollywood Shootout shooters made whole new parts.)
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #110)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:06 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
113. "Fully legal bump-fire" * cheap and easy conversion * watch and learn
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #113)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:08 PM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
114. Bump fire isn't fully auto, per the BATFE.
For obvious reasons. Try again.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #114)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:13 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
116. It is indistinguishable from full auto
if you had watched that video you would have seen it
illustrated in graphic full color. 2-3 round bursts so
fast they just sound like one long burst.
did you really watch that video?
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #116)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:22 PM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
117. I don't need to watch the video.
I'm familiar with the product, and I've read the BATFE's opinion on whether it is a conversion to full auto or not. It isn't.
I can bump fire with my hand. I don't, because you can't hit shit when you do it. THAT is why it isn't a conversion to full auto. It's hard enough to control a weapon in full auto, without holding it loosely in your hands so recoil can slam it back and forth.
It is not full auto. It's also highly stupid. The BATFE could make it illegal with the stroke of a pen, and they don't. Requires no legislative action at all.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #117)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:32 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
118. I think this is where we agree to disagree.
have a nice life. We could keep doing this back & forth ad infinitum and
still not change each others thinking, so no hard feelings.. but I'm done.
I just hope we can put a stop this "mass shooting" madness somehow,
and as soon and effectively as possible.
Maybe we can agree on that?
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #118)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:46 PM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
119. I agree.
Items I want to work on: Remove the Hughes Amendment, and extend the 1934 NFA to cover semi-auto rifles, and possibly handguns. This would be a game changer to keep guns out of bad actor's hands. MASSIVE change. Massive benefit. Reap enormous improvement.
There are other things. Gun owners have been asking for NICS to be made open/free access so private transfers could also perform background checks. We should do that. Or require all private transfer go through FFL's for background checks, and register them. That's cool. We can do that.
But on the bump fire, the BATFE bans stuff all the time. They confiscated a load of airsoft toys because they thought maybe parts of it could possibly be used in converting rifles to FA, so they took it all. They are the professionals, they are the experts, and they have no problem banning these things. They haven't banned that stock. So I consider that impartial recognition that it is a gimmick that doesn't really work, if your goal is to hit something.
We should probably focus on the best solution to cover the most problems. Registration is that piece. Things like bump fire are fringe issues that aren't really a problem, and will serve to fuel the hysterical opposition engine against ANY legislative action. That hysteria noise machine will be going full blast anyway, but the more silly the claims, the more likely we can overrule them.
Most americans will support registration. We can do this. I'm with you on that. I'd register mine in a heartbeat.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #119)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:54 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
120. +10 nt
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #113)
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:47 PM
janx (22,324 posts)
138. This should be a thread unto itself--
because it's fun to shoot up the woods.
Thanks for posting. It says a lot about our current culture.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #91)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:59 PM
99th_Monkey (19,326 posts)
111. Texas A&M * Aug. 2012 * 3 dead
"Various local media outlets reported that the shooter was firing an automatic weapon from a house."
No explanation as to whether this was a full-on auto, or a conversion; so this is a maybe.
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #111)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 06:10 PM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
115. Not a maybe.
Come back with actual ones. You have two, POSSIBLY a third. You contended these were widely available You haven't even scratched the surface of 'widely available.'
In FAIRNESS, if you want to find more hits on this sort of thing, tighten your search to border towns with Mexico. That is where you will find the most prevalent use of them. Problem is, they aren't made or installed here in the US. But that is generally where you will find illegally modified weapons in large numbers.
Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #12)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:26 PM
janx (22,324 posts)
53. They were originally fully automatic weapons, designed for the military.
They were modified for civilian use later by conversion into semi-automatic. My question is: how many rounds are we dealing with? How many rounds in the magazine at one time?
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:14 PM
pasto76 (1,589 posts)
15. again, this is almost identical in form and function to what I carried in Iraq. It is an assault
"automatic" weapons are part of our tool box. but in a a squad of 12, we had 2 automatic weapons, and 10 assault weapons. The backbone of our military is built on this very weapon.
And IIRC, the 90s AWB prohibited pistol grips. which unless this would have been grandfathered, would have made it hard to get. ie - enter the black market.
please feel free to contradict this combat veteran and soldier of 14 years.
Response to pasto76 (Reply #15)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:20 PM
NickB79 (13,314 posts)
18. The AWB didn't outright ban pistol grips
Rather, it prohibited you from having more than a few features in combination. So, you could buy a brand-new AR-15 with a pistol grip off the store shelf, but it couldn't have a collapsible stock or flash hider. You could have a collapsible stock, but then you'd need a thumbhole grip stock instead.
I worked in a gun shop owned by a large hunting supply store chain in the Midwest during college, and we were selling AR-15's off the shelf while the AWB was in force. About the only thing that people bitched about was the lack of any magazines that held more than 10 rounds, but with the advent of the Internet those pre-ban 30-rd mags were easily found, as they were grandfathered in by the AWB.
Response to NickB79 (Reply #18)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:34 PM
Dr_Scholl (212 posts)
24. Well put.
The AWB was feel-good legislation. Nothing more, nothing less.
Response to Dr_Scholl (Reply #24)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:40 PM
alcibiades_mystery (36,301 posts)
25. Agreed...we need far more restrictive legislation than the AWB
The AWB was a joke. We need laws that actually restrict and punish.
Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #25)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:58 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
29. No we don't
That's not the problem- you are falling for the old correlation=causation fallacy
The fact of the matter is if he had used those handguns instead of the Rifle the outcome would pretty much come out similar. VT massacre was committed using a Glock 9mm handgun.
If you want to look at something that is atleast related to the problem (though i'm not endorsing) is safe storage laws, upgrading the background check system to accept psychological history, and better mental health care system in this country. Atleast this options would better address and prevent such tragedies from happening.
Response to bossy22 (Reply #29)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:12 PM
alcibiades_mystery (36,301 posts)
30. Oh
I'm all for stringent restrictions on handguns as well.
I'm not wrong. You are. The piled up bodies from the massacres we see under your favored system prove it. We're in a public health crisis like HIV/AIDS, and you're the guy who wants to keep the bath houses open for civil liberties. Your position has no future. Unfortunately, thousands will still have to die because of your position.
Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #30)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:31 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
36. how can we see bodies under my system when it hasn't even been considered or implimented?
statistically we are not in a "crisis". I'm sorry, I don't through emotions into policy discourse. Mass shootings are still stastically rare.
Your positoin is the one that is actual DOA. My position atleasat has a chance of being taken seriously. You aren't going to get the massive shift in public feeling that you think you are. If you think that all of a sudden there is going to be this huge movement to remove the 2nd amendment from the constitution you are kidding yourself.
The same people that brought you the patriot act used the "tactics" you are using. in any gun control debate in this country there is goign to be discourse on civil liberties
What I discussed is atleast politcally attainable and it might have prevented this tragedy. If his mother's guns were locked up and NICS was aware of his mental condition, don't you think that might have had a chance to prevent this?
Sometimes big problems can be fixed with little solutions
Response to bossy22 (Reply #36)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:58 AM
primavera (5,191 posts)
70. Umm, 30,000 dead Americans each year by guns isn't a crisis?
Jeez, I'd hate to think what it would take to impress you that we were in a crisis.
Response to primavera (Reply #70)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:52 AM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
72. I meant mass shootings
and where did you get 30,000 from? Last year there were 9,000 homicides committed with firearms of all types. If you are including suicides that is a whole "nother" issue. There is no causitive connection between suicides and gun ownership.
Response to bossy22 (Reply #72)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:34 AM
primavera (5,191 posts)
75. According to CDC, 31,347 Americans died by guns in 2009...
... the most recent year for which they have figures, a figure consistent with the average of 32,000 annual gun fatalities that is the average over the last thirty years. Of those 31,347 deaths, 11,493 were homicides. 18,735 were suicides, true, but they're still dead by a bullet. But even setting aside the suicides who might or might not have found alternative ways of ending their own lives without guns, you're still left with a per capita gun death rate that is the highest of any developed nation in the world, somewhere between 15 and 20 times greater than the other developed nations, depending upon how you count. Compare our 11,493 gun homicides to the 18 total gun homicides in the UK for 2009, or the 11 in Japan, or the 14 in Sweden, or the 6 in Denmark, or the... well, you get the idea. Anyway you want to slice it, I'd call it a crisis, and anyone who thinks it's not pretty damned coldhearted.
Response to primavera (Reply #75)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:49 AM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
76. Per capita numbers are better to use
Response to bossy22 (Reply #76)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:19 AM
primavera (5,191 posts)
81. I understand
The image of 30,000 bullet-riddled corpses must be difficult for a gun advocate to digest. Better to reduce it to nice, sterile, statistical rates. As you wish. At 9 annual gun homicides per 100,000 population, the US has 3 times the per capita gun homicide rate of France, Austria, and Finland; 5 times the per capita rate for Israel, Norway, Greece, Sweden, Denmark; 7 times the rate of Italy, Iceland, Kuwait; 9 times the per capita rate of Germany, Australia, Ireland, India; 15 times the per capita rate of the Netherlands; 36 times the per capita rate of the UK; 130 times the per capita rate of Japan, need I go on?
Response to primavera (Reply #70)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 01:54 AM
TroglodyteScholar (5,477 posts)
73. Nah, just the cost of doing business.
Stop being so tender!
Response to pasto76 (Reply #15)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:08 PM
janx (22,324 posts)
50. Isn't this essentially an M16 (fully automatic) that was modified
to be semi auto--for civilians?
Response to janx (Reply #50)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:11 AM
Clames (2,038 posts)
79. Wrong.
The AR-15 came first, the military adopted it and modified it for their purpose. Simple Google search would tell you that.
Response to Clames (Reply #79)
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:31 PM
janx (22,324 posts)
137. A simple Google search:
It was marketed to the military as the M16. It was a firearm designed and marketed for the military.
"The AR-15 was first built by ArmaLite as a selective fire rifle for the United States armed forces. Because of financial problems, ArmaLite sold the AR-15 design to Colt. The select-fire AR-15 entered the US military system as the M16 rifle. Colt then marketed the Colt AR-15 as a semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle for civilian sales in 1963.[8] Although the name "AR-15" remains a Colt registered trademark, variants of the firearm are independently made, modified and sold under various names by multiple manufacturers."
The reason I asked is that a U.S. military veteran DUer brought this up.
Response to janx (Reply #137)
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:25 AM
Clames (2,038 posts)
139. The AR-15 derived from the AR-10 which derived from a civilian survival rifle project...
...in which Eugene Stoner was brought in early to be the chief engineer. The AR-10's were submitted late during the Army's testing phase for replacement battle rifles (full power rifle cartridges rather than intermediate power cartridges that would be later chosen) but lost to the M14. The AR-10 continued development until the Army came back to lower powered assault rifles rather than battle rifles where the AR-15 was submitted based on improvements made after dealing with shortcomings from the AR-10 and survival rifle which never saw production.
Response to pasto76 (Reply #15)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:02 AM
AtheistCrusader (31,174 posts)
85. No you didn't.
You had an assault RIFLE. Didn't you pay attention in training?
A select fire weapon of intermediate caliber between a sub machine gun and a battle rifle.
You're also wrong about the stipulations of the expired federal assault weapons ban.
Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:Folding or telescoping stock
Pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).
TWO OR MORE features. So, you could have a detachable mag, and a pistol grip, with a fixed stock, welded flash suppressor, and no bayonet lug.
I believe you that you may be a combat veteran, but you have thoroughly proven you are no expert on this subject.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:23 PM
janx (22,324 posts)
52. From my limited understanding, assault weapons are weapons initially designed for military use.
They can be automatic or semi-automatic, but they have large capacity magazines. How many rounds were in the one this crazy used?
I think part of the problem of "assault weapons" ban, etc. is in the definition of what constitutes an assault weapon. For instance, I had a semi-automatic .22 rifle back in the day that was not an assault weapon; if I remember correctly, it held 11 rounds max.
I don't think that's what we're dealing with here.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:46 PM
Starboard Tack (11,181 posts)
55. That's why semi=autos need to be reclassified as assault weapons.
Most of us are aware of the difference and also the fact that semi-auto is much more deadly.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:59 PM
Myrina (12,296 posts)
56. A "hunting" rifle? For what, deer tar-tar? Squirrel ceviche?
Jesus, that would shred just about anything to moosh.
Response to Myrina (Reply #56)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:32 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
61. actually you are somewhat correct
the .223 calibre is mainly considered a "varmint" calibre. That means it is good for small game hunting- such as woodchucks, squirrels, even coyotes. Some people advocate using it for deer as well but most believe it to be too weak to take down a deer (would require multiple shots and cause the animal suffering). A more common calibre for deer is usually closer to the .30 calibre range
In fact the U.S. military has also questioned the efficacy of the .223 as the main combatant weapon. Throughout Iraq and Afganistan soldiers had reported that it would take multiple shots just to take a single person down. thats why there is a great deal of research into a calibre that is between a .30 (it was too heavy for soliders to carry a battle required amount) and a .223
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:56 PM
jpak (32,673 posts)
57. No it is not - it's an assault rifle designed to kill humans
anyone that actually hunts knows the difference
Response to jpak (Reply #57)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:46 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
65. so there is a difference between a 150 lb deer
and a 150 lb human when it comes to bullets and lethality?
Response to bossy22 (Reply #65)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:08 AM
exboyfil (7,879 posts)
88. Distance
You usually don't get within five to ten feet of a deer to shoot it. With a quickly firing semiauto at ten feet versus a bolt action .30-06 - what do you think? It seems the .223 is perfectly capable of being lethal enough when it comes to humans - especially humans without body armor. Also you got 75 gr and 80 gr ammo (for killing deer).
The lethality of the gun speaks for itself - 26 people with very few wounded.
Pictures of deer brought down with a .223. it seems to do the job.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #1)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:19 PM
intaglio (8,170 posts)
127. Is a weapon capable of firing 30 shots in 10 seconds
for hunting? What is it for hunting? Humans?
This weapon killed 26 humans in a lot less than 10 minutes. It is known that this apology for a human questioned teachers and had to search for victims. These humans were hit by no fewer than three and as many as 11 rounds so say a mean as 5 per teacher or pupil; that is 130 rounds. It is reported that this murderer entered the school by firing through a glass panel. I suspect there may be shots that missed. So at least 5 of the 30 round magazines his mother stupidly bought were used.
Take your apologist garbage elsewhere.
Response to intaglio (Reply #127)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 04:54 PM
HooptieWagon (17,064 posts)
128. WTF? No it can't fire 30 shots in 10 seconds, don't be silly.
It fires one bullet each time the trigger is pulled. Even taking just the roughest aim, you could only fire a bullet every one to two seconds. More careful aim takes longer. Firing at a quicker rate, such as the YouTube watched " bumpfire", is wildly inaccurate...maybe only one bullet in the magazine would get even near a target, let alone hit it. There is a reason why the military has a three-round fire select on their automatic weapons- flinging lots of lead in the air is pretty useless and wasteful of ammunition. It looks good for Hollywood movies is all.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #128)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:48 PM
intaglio (8,170 posts)
133. 3 rounds per second ...
not difficult, the weapon is constructed to fire much faster
Place a stitch counter in your hand and click it as fast as you can over a timed 10 seconds. Yes, I know that the weight of the pull is greater with a gun but the distance over which your finger works is longer on the counter. You'll easily get over 40 clicks.
Or could also go down to a range and do 3 rapid trigger pulls, don't expect accuracy at first. Then build up; 6, 10, 20. Yes, you are spraying and praying but it can be done.
Now go away and do the experiment
Response to intaglio (Reply #133)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:28 PM
HooptieWagon (17,064 posts)
134. With the weight of the trigger and dealing with the recoil,
I don't think three rounds per second is possible under ordinary circumstances. And while there are reports of the son going to gun range with his mother, no-one at the range recalled him ever shooting when interviewed by police. So the guy was a novice by any reasonable definition. Even a novice could fire 150-200 rounds in 5 minutes or so he was shooting (including changing magazines), and be accurate at near point-blank range.
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #134)
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:33 AM
intaglio (8,170 posts)
135. I said go away and do the experiment to the original respondant
Try it yourself. The stitch counter is just to demonstrate that the finger can squeeze as fast as required. The part with the gun is to show that all else is a matter of hand strength and conditioning to recoil.
What I am not saying is that the killer fired that fast, just that weapons of that type can fire very rapidly compared to a bolt action weapon. This ability together with the 30 round magazine and his choice of victim facilitated the killer's extraordinary "competence" in slaughter (27 dead but only 2 wounded).
My OP in this thread was in response to the stupid assertion about "hunting" because this type of weapon is NOT designed for hunting game, it is designed for hunting humans. A game hunter does not require a weapon of this sort; a bolt action with a 5 round mag is plenty for deer and coyote, for birds and squirrels a 12 gauge side-by-side is plenty.
Given this last do you honestly think that the vile perpetrator of this massacre could have killed with such efficiency in such a short period of time with a 5 round bolt action .223? And a response to this question would be appreciated.
Response to intaglio (Reply #135)
Wed Dec 19, 2012, 02:10 PM
HooptieWagon (17,064 posts)
136. Uh, I have fired a semi-automatic rifle.
An average person cannot fire 3 rounds a second until the magazine is empty by normal trigger operation.
I have heard of the "bump-fire" method, but haven't seen it done. There is also quick-fire artists who can empty, reload, and empty old-fashioned style revolvers in just a few seconds. In both cases, it takes a great deal of practice, and accuracy is of no concern. I don't think those are the type of situation we are dealing with in mass-shootings.
All indications are that these mass shooters aren't long-time gun owners, nor do they have years of regular practice at a range. They all appear to have a deteriorating mental state, but because they have no prior record they are able to easily acquire guns, because mental health database is poor. In most cases, the shooter has no intention of surviving the attack. In that sense, they are like suicide terrorists, though the motive is personal rather than political or religious. Like terrorists, they will use whatever weapons they can acquire, that will cause the greatest deaths. We can ban guns, but would they not then use IEDs, car-bombs, poison gas, or some other means?
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #136)
Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:27 AM
intaglio (8,170 posts)
140. Restricting the argument
An average person cannot fire 3 roundand ignoring my statement
Try it yourself. The stitch counter is just to demonstrate that the finger can squeeze as fast as required. The part with the gun is to show that all else is a matter of hand strength and conditioning to recoil.
Because for you to admit what I say is right weakens the gun industry pabulum you constantly regurgitate.
I have heard of the "bump-fire" method, but haven't seen it doneEver looked on You Tube? There are even ATF approved mods for AR style rifles that are, essentially, bump fire; there was one posted on this site recently that "boasted" 10 rounds per second and fully controllable
There is also quick-fire artists who can empty, reload, and empty old-fashioned style revolvers in just a few seconds.I believe you will find that these "quick fire artists" are operating in very limited conditions, do not aim and that over, say, 3 reloads they still average only one round per second.
I don't think those are the type of situation we are dealing with in mass-shootings.I didn't say it was
What I am not saying is that the killer fired that fast, just that weapons of that type can fire very rapidly compared to a bolt action weapon. This ability together with the 30 round magazine and his choice of victim facilitated the killer's extraordinary "competence" in slaughter (27 dead but only 2 wounded).
All indications are that these mass shooters aren't long-time gun owners, nor do they have years of regular practice at a range.Firstly why are you using the words "long term"? It smells like another gun industry approved grammatical niggle. Young shooters are hardly likely to be "long term" owners or practicioners because of their age. The murderer at Sandy Hook was not a "long term" gun owner - except he had long term access to these weapons and certainly did not have what you would term "years of regular practise". This sort of sophistry is typical of the talking points used to distract from the need for gun control.
They all appear to have a deteriorating mental stateCaptain Obvious is obvious, or do you think normal humans go round shooting kids?
but because they have no prior record they are able to easily acquire guns, because mental health database is poorYet you do not see this as an argument for proper training, assessment and licensing - r-i-i-ght. Your idea is that the mental health records of all persons seeking to be gun owners be examined by your local Walmart gun sales person. Do you think the medical records of all women who want to use birth control should also be examined by the pharmacist?
In most cases, the shooter has no intention of surviving the attackI'd say you were claiming telepathic powers - except that this statement is just another talking point marketed by the gun manufacturers.
In that sense, they are like suicide terrorists, though the motive is personal rather than political or religiousEvidence based or just your unsupported opinion? The fact that terrorists operate from a supportive environment of other terrorists who assist in the production of their preferred method of slaughter has not even entered your head.
Like terrorists, they will use whatever weapons they can acquire, that will cause the greatest deaths. We can ban guns, but would they not then use IEDs, car-bombs, poison gas, or some other means?In general, no. People with these mental issues do not plan long term. A few might try to use a car to run into a crowd but that is a damn sight more difficult than shooting a gun
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:00 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
2. And where did he get the vest I wonder?
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #2)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:31 PM
Ash_F (5,861 posts)
6. You can get them online. Even ebay.
This is so sad. I can picture it now.
Response to Ash_F (Reply #6)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:45 PM
AldoLeopold (600 posts)
10. Yes, true
but where did he get this vest I wonder. I hope we find out.
Response to AldoLeopold (Reply #10)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:42 PM
Ash_F (5,861 posts)
26. I'm sure we will.
To my knowledge there are no regulations for body armor, which is why you can get it from places like ebay.
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 05:04 PM
MFM008 (11,229 posts)
4. i wouldnt even say that name.
giving him the notority he craved. the bastard.
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:16 PM
pasto76 (1,589 posts)
17. I invite all of you to google "automatic assault weapon videos". You will find dozens
of videos of illegally modified AR weapons firing automatically. I sent emails to ATF about them I invite you to do the same.
Response to pasto76 (Reply #17)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:25 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
19. are you sure its not "bump firing" videos
bump firing is a technique to get a semi-auto to seem like its shooting as fast as an auto. The technicalities are quite simple- its essentially just "pulling the trigger" faster. Instead of relying on coordinated muscle concentric contraction you utilize coordinated muscle eccentric contraction (lengthing of the muscle against resistance) against the recoil of the gun
its perfectly legal and is not a firearm modification
Response to pasto76 (Reply #17)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:25 PM
Atypical Liberal (5,412 posts)
20. Yeah, no.
While you are googling, google that California police veteran who said in decades of police work he had never encountered a convereted-to-fully-automatic weapon.
Getting excited about machine guns is a red herring in this issue.
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 06:45 PM
geckosfeet (9,644 posts)
28. Note that he was not old enough to legally firearms in the state. I wonder if he use his
brothers ID to buy ammunition, and that's why the id was found on his body.
Response to geckosfeet (Reply #28)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:19 PM
renate (9,877 posts)
34. very good point
That makes a lot of sense--at least, it explains why (if the brothers haven't seen each other in 2 years) he would have taken/stolen it back then, long before he planned any of this. (That is, he probably didn't use Ryan's ID solely in order to complicate the investigation, implicate him, etc.)
Response to geckosfeet (Reply #28)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 09:02 PM
janx (22,324 posts)
49. I wondered the same thing.
He had it for some reason.
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:19 PM
muriel_volestrangler (84,398 posts)
33. Kick (nt)
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 07:34 PM
Berndbrett (11 posts)
37. i am so sad
i can not believe to this, i mean why why why, i cry, this is so awesome!
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 08:36 PM
secondwind (5,891 posts)
47. "A WELL-REGULATED MILITIA".... key words being WELL-REGULATED... we need
to use these words to hack away at this problem.. there are 800 -- count them -- 800 GUN DEALERS IN PHOENIX AREA ALONE.
Response to secondwind (Reply #47)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:40 PM
primavera (5,191 posts)
132. Then we need to hack away at Mad Dog Scalia
Unfortunately, he and the rest of the Fascist Five on the Court ruled that the framers were simply smoking crack when they included that whole "well regulated militia" bit and really didn't mean a word of it.
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 10:57 PM
workinclasszero (18,862 posts)
58. Military assault weapons are designed to
kill people. No other reason. Not hunting, not home protection, nothing but killing as many people as possible in a short time.
Just made to KILL AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE, as fast as possible!
And the scumbag had a bulletproof vest on as well so he could last even longer at the slaughter of the innocents!!
Yep that damn .223 did what it was designed to do now didn't it?!
What kind of fucking insane society allows battlefield weapons of mass destruction to be easily bought by any damn nutcase walkin down the street!?
What could possibly go wrong?????
Response to workinclasszero (Reply #58)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:19 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
59. then why area people okay with the police having them?
Do the police have a need to kill large numbers of people on a regular basis?
Response to bossy22 (Reply #59)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:27 PM
rhett o rick (55,981 posts)
60. I am not at all in favor of the police having these guns. nm
Response to rhett o rick (Reply #60)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:35 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
63. I actually am in favor of their use
Though i do have a problem with the militarization of police.
the AR-15 is a good carbine platform for police use. It's very accurate, easy to maintain, and reliable.
Response to bossy22 (Reply #59)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:35 PM
workinclasszero (18,862 posts)
62. I'm not ok with that
The militarization of our police forces is a threat to our freedom. Look at what they did to Occupy protesters last year.
Response to workinclasszero (Reply #62)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:38 PM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
64. then what would they use for a rifle calibre carbine?
Response to workinclasszero (Reply #58)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 05:49 AM
Dr_Scholl (212 posts)
86. Bullshit.
So called "assault weapons" are some of the most popular firearms for recreation, competitive shooting, and hunting. Yet they're the least used guns in crime.
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sat Dec 15, 2012, 11:48 PM
happyslug (14,779 posts)
66. How come no one ever brings up Mental health care?
In many ways the problem is NOT gun control or lack of gun control, but Mental health care.
Mental Health Care has been underfunded for decades, if the family would have been able to get adequate care for the shooter BEFORE this incident, this whole problem would have been avoided. His mother would have known what programs available for her child (the shooter) and determined none were available UNLESS she paid, more then she could afford. That is the situation with Mental Heath Care in the US today.
In School, his teachers would have seen the problems, but could not do anything for there was no place to send him due to the lack of funding for Mental Health care.
Thus he was on his own for Mental Health Care, which he could not get. Left alone, as an American Individualist, he sought his own Solution to his problem and we see the results.
We need additional finding for Mental Health Care, but it is the one thing the NRA will NOT support for the simple reason the NRA is tied in with the extreme Right Wing and its support for low taxes for the rich. Mental Health Care cost money, and thus NOT an option for the right wing. The Extreme Right Wing prefer Gun Control or no Control Control (The Extreme Economic Right Wing do not really care which) over increase taxes on the the Rich (Which the extreme Right Wing do care about).
Response to happyslug (Reply #66)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 02:05 AM
HooptieWagon (17,064 posts)
74. Both mother and father were financially well off,
So it doesn't appear money was preventing shooter from getting mental help. And apparently family was aware of his mental condition. I have no idea why he wasn't getting professional diagnosis and treatment. Maybe he refused to go?
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #74)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:17 AM
John2 (2,730 posts)
89. I think
this was a tragedy after thinking about it more. His family was very wealthy and they found that wealth in the corporate world which most of us don't come to grips of the pressures within it. I think everyone was a victim, and I know some might criticize me, but after thinking things through, even his family, which includes Adam.
This kid was twenty years old and something went wrong in his life. He appears to have led a reclusive life, where the pressures were placed on him and success was expected. His mother was probably very demanding and appeared to protect her son and wanted him to succeed in that corporate world of success also. She was very demanding of how he did in school also.
I think the pressure might have gotten to the kid and he just snapped into his own World. I read that he enjoyed playing video games and imagined blowing everything up. He was very quiet and didn't talk to anybody or made friends like ordinary kids. His mother and father had also divorced after many years.
Looking at the sequences of this young man's final day, He apparently had a devastating confrontation with his mother, which probably made this kid go over the edge. His mother appeared to be very demanding of him. The first killing took place in the home, where she was found shot in the face. The kid apparently dressed himself in Black and gather the guns, which his mother loved. He then chose a school with a staff of all women. He forced his way in that school and shot most of the staff, including the children he found. When the rampage ended, then turn the gun on himself, and it was over for Adam Lanza. This was a heinous crime done by Adam, but in retrospect, it was a failure of society for this young man, which affected everyone. Mow everybody sees Adam as a monster.
The first breakdown was with the family including his mother,father, brother, and those that came into contact with him. That was probably what made him reclusive, the probably didn't refuse to seek help, but apparently there were signs, but nobody didn't want to get involved with the kid. Another factor could also be, his immediate family were too involved with their own successes or niches. This is just a perspective, that might be from Adam's view. And I'm just trying to be open and not see him as some kinda monster. I've also decided to step back and see the mother as maybe loving her children too much and didn't reach outside of her wealthy circle of friends for more help. she seemed to have problems with her own views of the World.
Response to John2 (Reply #89)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:12 PM
Amonester (11,541 posts)
96. Good post. Re: "it was a failure of society for this young man"
I would add: and then it was a failure of his family as the lack of money appeared not to be a problem for them to buy many guns, but no mental help (?)
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #74)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 04:56 PM
happyslug (14,779 posts)
103. Mental health Care is EXTREMELY Expensive
Thus it can bankrupt anyone, unless you are a multi-millionaire. You are looking at having to deal with someone with at least a Master Degree on a weekly basis (Doctors are seen about once every three months). Most health insurance limits how many time you can see a doctor, to keep costs down, you can seek additional sessions if you are willing to pay, $25-50 an hour, $500 to $1000 a month (have to include the cost for Psychiatrist to over view the people actually dealing with the patient).
Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #74)
Mon Dec 17, 2012, 05:46 PM
happyslug (14,779 posts)
124. The issue is rarely the wealth of the Parents, it is the lack of adequate Mental Health Care:
CBS report a friend said the mother was NOT a survivalist:
Another CBS report says she was:
That this is more a mental health crisis:
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7- and 9-year-old siblings knew the safety planthey ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.....
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boysand their mothersneed help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness......
When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."
For the complete article:
Response to happyslug (Reply #66)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:21 PM
Doctor_J (36,392 posts)
123. No one ever brings up Mental Health Care???
back to RKBA with this horse shit
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:27 AM
iandhr (6,852 posts)
68. We are incapable of having a rational conversation on guns.
The NRA will go off the Obama is going for our guns and then congress will get a flood of emails and then they will fall in line. There is no one who will stand up to the gun lobby.
Response to iandhr (Reply #68)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:34 AM
bossy22 (3,547 posts)
69. don't just blame the NRA
the gun control movement misleads and plays on peoples emotions as well
IF you want a rational conversation, it will have to be a product of both sides
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 03:06 AM
krispos42 (47,635 posts)
78. If the rifle was bought in Connecticut in the last 18 years...
...it was not an assault weapon.
Connecticut has had state ban that mirrors the now-expired federal ban. All "assault weapons" had to be registered with the state within a year of the law passing, (a certain date in 1994) and I believe you can't sell a registered assault weapon to anybody else in the state if you decide to get rid of it.
It may have been a semi-auto rifle that uses the AR-15 operating system, but it did not have enough features to be classified as an "assault weapon".
The rifle pictured is one, per Connecticut law, because it is a semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine and pistol grip, AND also has a telescoping stock and a flash hider.
If the rifle's stock was fixed, or if the flash hider gets removed, the rifle pictured is no longer an assault weapon. Same as if you replaced the pistol grip and buttstock with a conventional straight grip: no longer an assault weapon.
This is why such bans don't work. Arbitrary and ineffective.
You could argue for the banning of semiautomatic long guns, which certainly removed both the arbitrariness and the ineffectiveness of the Clinton-era ban.
Response to krispos42 (Reply #78)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 09:55 AM
Throckmorton (2,893 posts)
92. Simple
Ban the sale of any newly manufactured semi-automatic, lever action or pump long gun which contains a detachable magazine (rim fire and center fire).
Limit installed, non-detachable magazine capacity, on all newly manufactured long guns to no more than 9 rounds, including the chambered round. Make modification of any weapon to accept a detachable magazine, or magazine extension a 25 year to life federal offense.
Ban the sale or transfer of existing center fire semi-auto, lever action or pump long guns containing detachable magazines to non-FFL holders. Make the regulation of the above legacy weapon's storage, access and use subject to the same restrictions are full-auto weapons for those FFL holders choosing to purchase them.
Response to Throckmorton (Reply #92)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 12:22 PM
krispos42 (47,635 posts)
97. Ever hear of the "bullet button"?
By replacing the finger-actuated magazine release with one that requires a "tool", such as a bullet point or a pen point, you can make your AR-15 have a non-detachable magazine.
Of course, some magazine-release tools are made from a strong magnet, so they stick on the magazine release...
And this doesn't affect handguns at all.
We're focusing entirely on changing every single gun in the country to try to prevent a mass shooting, and ignoring the 40 or so people murdered daily, day in and day out.
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Post removed
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Sun Dec 16, 2012, 08:42 PM
Liberal_in_LA (44,397 posts)
121. that's a serious looking gun
Response to Junkdrawer (Original post)
Tue Dec 18, 2012, 02:26 PM
lovuian (19,362 posts)
125. Logo of Bushmaster rifle is a Red Serpent
I was wondering when I was researching the Bushmaster .223 assault rifle
I found
The Adaptive Combat Rifle (ACR) is the production name for an updated version of the Masada Adaptive Combat Weapon System. It is a tactical rifle platform designed by Magpul Industries of Erie, Colorado. In late January 2008, Bushmaster entered into a licensing agreement with Magpul whereby Bushmaster would take over production, future development, and sales of the Masada
The original Magpul Masada design represented a combination of several recent rifle designs, incorporating what was considered by its designers to be the best features of each in a single, lightweight, modular rifle platform.
In January 2008, the design of the Magpul Masada was licensed to Bushmaster Firearms International and the production version of the Masada became known as the Bushmaster ACR.
So my question is for people in the military
is the Bushmaster ....a Magpul MASADA under the name Bushmaster
because that is what wikipedia talks about