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Pages 311-338
Grey's Debates of the House of Commons: Volume 10. Originally published by T. Becket and P. A. De Hondt, London, 1769.
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In this section
- Tuesday, November 7, 1693.
Tuesday, November 7, 1693.
[The Parliament met, when his Majesty, in the House of Lords, made the following Speech to both Houses:
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"I am always glad to meet you here, and I could heartily wish that our satisfaction were not lessened at present, by reflecting upon the Disadvantages we have received this Year at Land, and the Miscarriages in our Affairs at Sea. I think, it is evident, that the former was only occasioned by the great number of our Enemies, which exceeded ours in all Places: For what relates to the latter, (which has brought so great a Disgrace upon the Nation,) I have resented it extremely; and as I will take care that those who have not done their Duty shall be punished, so I am resolved to use my utmost endeavours, that our Power at Sea may be rightly managed for the future: And it will well deserve your consideration, whether we are not defective both in the number of our Shipping, and in proper Ports to the Westward, for the better annoying our Enemies, and protecting our Trade, which is so essential to the welfare of this Kingdom.
"I am very sensible of the good affection wherewith you have always assisted me to support the Charges of the War, which have been very great; and yet I am persuaded, that the Experience of this Summer is sufficient to convince us all, that, to arrive at a good end of it, there will be a necessity of increasing onr Forces, both by Sea and Land, the next Year. Our Allies have resolved to add to theirs; and I will not doubt, but you will have such regard to the present exigency, as that, you will give me a suitable Supply to enable me to do the like: I must therefore earnestly recommend it to you, Gentlemen of the Honse of Commons, to take such timely Resolutions, as that your Supplies may be effectual, and our Preparations so forward, as will be necessary both for the Security and the Honour of the Nation."
The House being returned, adjourned to Monday.]
Monday, November 13.
On the King's Speech.
Mr Foley.] The King's Speech is short, but of two parts, viz. The Disadvantage our Forces have had at Land, and the Miscarriage at Sea. Considering the time of the Year, and the condition of the Navy, that is the greatest Consideration, and first to be considered. But before we give Supply, the condition of Affairs is to be considered, and the Miscarriage the last Summer. They cannot excuse themselves. Our Enemies are enriched by our Losses. If the Miscarriages had been before considered, it might have prevented much. We had a powerful Fleet; had they done their Duty, they might have destroyed the French Fleet; but instead of that, we have had great Losses, and are become a scorn and contempt to other Nations. We do not our Duty to the King, and the Nation, and what all the World expects from us, if we examine not the Miscarriages. But before we can know where to lay the fault, it is requisite that we have the Papers before us. I move for a short day to consider the Miscarriages of the Fleet, and Navy-Affairs.
Mr Charles Montagu.] I like what is moved; and for what day you will appoint, I am as ready as any body. I am one of those that think that you have been downright betrayed. I know not who did it, but am sure it is strange, that the French King should leave five hundred Miles of his Shore exposed, and draw off all his Fleet: That plainly shows he had some good assurances. But I would not postpone the greatest matter. The King says, "the Enemy is stronger than he considerably in Land-Forces," and that was the only Reason of his Disappointment. Some of our Countrymen did not behave themselves so well as they should. But, being deserted by the Foreigners, 'tis no wonder that they shifted for themselves, for their own safety. I have observed, that the English are contrary to all the World; they are frighted into their wits. A Party was suspected formerly to carry on Popish designs; another complied with the present temper, Popery: Whereas, then we had no Deliverer—We must not expect another Deliverer. I wish Gentlemen would lay aside all little heats, and fooleries, and lay their hands to the great Affair. If we do not suddenly provide for our safety, the Enemy will be much forwarder than we. I hope we shall be quicker in our Resolutions. Several things retard our Proceedings—One is, Places. A noble example lately of my Lord Keeper, in disposing his Places! I wish all Places were well filled, and that men would not thrust themselves into Offices, and never look after them. 'Tis high time to come to some Resolution. We have more Enemies than we had last Year. I move, for your Reputation, that you will resolve to support the King, and defend the Government, and assist them in a Parliamentary way for carrying on the War with France, and supporting the King.
Sir Thomas Clarges reads part of the King's Speech reflecting on the Miscarriages.] I am sorry any body should be so unhappy as to prostitute the Honour of the King. Where the Reputation of the King sinks, the King sinks with it. Unhappy Ministers that advised the King to head such Armies, as are not for his Reputation! If they think they can be governed without him, they may say they will not be governed with him. Kings formerly had their Council with them in foreign Expeditions, This may be the last meeting in this Assembly, if we provide not better for our safety. Littleton told you, "That, formerly, the Pensioners perverted good Laws;" pray God 'tis not so still ! I find some, who arraigned the former times, now in Offices; generally such People are distrusted—The Trade of the Nation is gone, and Land will be worth nothing, if Trade be not supported. By Trade, London makes up your Rents. I always told you, that our safety is the Sea—In 1692, the Navy was two Millions in Arrear. It was said heretofore, "That we should be Monarchs of the Sea;" but for all I see, we are like to be Vassals, and bow to other Nations. I hope you will particularise the Miscarriages. You have lost a Million of Capital Stock in the City of London, besides the Ships you have furnished to your Enemies. It is come to a moot Point, whether we shall save England or Flanders. I think we are undone, if we go not by the ancient way of Parliament, to address that our Grievances may be redressed before we give Aid; which is the natural way of aiding the King. The King told us, when he came over, "That we should make such Laws, that we should never fear our Liberties;" but God knows, we are betrayed; and if there be such unhappy men to take Money to betray their Country, find them out. We have some resemblance to the first Christianity, where were twelve Apostles, and one of them was a Devil: He kept the Purse; for thirty Pieces of Silver he betrayed his Master: And that will betray us, and by that we shall lose all our Privileges. I should enlarge farther, but I hope Gentlemen of greater Abilities will supply me: But I move, as before, for a day to consider the Miscarriages of the Fleet.
Sir John Thompson.] All of us come here full of Affection to serve our King and Country; but it must be confessed, that never Parliament was under such discouragements as we are; but would it not grieve any Englishman, that the Treasure of the Nation should be spent in such extravagant Bounties, and Pensions to Foreigners ? A man must no more talk of Miscarriages at Court, than of News in the Camp. Do but consider the last Session; our Bills for the Security of the Nation, all proved abortive. Though we have had so many gracious Promises, they all languish under disappointment of Performances. Have we not seen Preferments, as if the displeasure of this House were the greatest Letters of Recommendation? Lord Torrington was questioned, and tried for his Life; yet he brought home the Fleet. Admiral Russel fought, and was accused when he came home. I hope, whatever is said abroad, that Persons will not be so mollified with Places, as to betray their Country.
Sir John Lowther.] Upon the deliberation of the House all will depend. Miscarriages have been unfortunate, but must be proved, and then I shall concur to punishments. But do not judge men before they be heard—They are said to be Judas's, "because they carry the Purse"—As to Offices, can the Nation subsist without Offices? If you can find honest Officers, encourage them; if otherwise, prove them, and make them examples to others. What will Men think of us, if, in these great exigencies, we complain, and no more? The Treasury have had no assistance from the Commissioners of Accounts—When we consider, that the last money came short; we can never answer it to our Country. We in our Ports, when the Enemy was at Sea! I am indifferent which Question you put first; whether you will examine the Faults, or give the King Supply. Do all the parts requisite to the Government, and take the Questions together, and I hope you will not preclude any thing; but, amidst your discontents, do not ruin the Nation.
Sir Edward Hussey.] In the last Session, the Triennial Bill was rejected: I would know who advised that, and the delay of the Smyrna Fleet? Former Parliaments had Grievances redressed before they gave Money. I move, to consider the Miscarriages of the Fleet last Summer, &c.
On the Miscarriages of the Fleet.
Sis Edward Seymour.] It is a great dissatisfaction to enter into this Debate. One consideration weighs more with me than all; without Supply, for support of the Government, we are lost. Here is an Account prepared for you, to see that the Money is not mis-spent, for the use of the Nation. I say, with the greatest sadness, that we have lost the Discipline of the Fleet, and, I am afraid, our Honour too—The House will never go along chearfully, till enquiry be made into Miscarriages. Words have done no good, of a vigorous War against France; but I fear it may be termed a vigorous War against England. I move to add to the Question, "That we will support the Government to the utmost of our Power."
Colonel Titus.] A great Sum was given last Year to set out the Fleet, which brought home nothing but infamy. The Fleet should have convoyed the Turkey Fleet out of danger, and it convoyed them into danger. They fiddled and danced at Torbay, and we must pay the Music. If you enquire not into these Miscarriages, you will be as popular a Parliament as the Fleet is a Fleet. But be angry, and sin not, and revenge the Quarrel upon yourselves. Your case now is to satisfy your justice, and provide for your safety at the same time. But it is an affront to the Government to take care of Trade, and none of the Government; therefore, I would put in the Words, &c.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] Shall it ever be said, to the disgrace of the House of Commons, that we do not examine Miscarriages? The affections of the People are not changed to the King, but accidents in Government that prove unfortunate, You are told, "If you have not a greater care than formerly, your Money will be of no effect;" but let us not be ensnared by any Vote to take away the freedom of Debate. I conclude, "For the Preservation of the Government, and Trade of the Nation."
Mr Howe.] I think none so simple as to think an English Parliament will not support an English Government. The Words offered for the Question are so large, they include all things. I will not say, nor any man, there are not Miscarriages; but they must not be called Misfortunes. I think the Opposition of the two violent Parties is equally honest, and equally well intentioned to the Government. I care not which is uppermost; if they be uppermost they care not what becomes of the Government, if they have safety in their own animosities. It is to this we may attribute all our Misfortunes. Let us show the Nation, that it is worth preserving. As to the faults of the Fleet, one part lies upon one, and another upon another. Prop the Building first, and then enquire where the defect is.
[Resolved, Nem. con. That this House will support their Majesties and their Government, and will, on Wednesday morning next, enquire into the Miscarriages of the Fleet the last Summer; and take into their Consideration the Preservation of the Trade of the Nation.
Ordered, That the Commissioners of the Admiralty (who are Members of this House) do, on Wednesday morning next, inform the House, why the Streights Fleet was stopped till the main Fleet went out.
Ordered, That the Admirals, that commanded the Fleet last Summer, and Sir George Rooke, and the Turkey Company, or such as they shall appoint, do attend this House on Wednesday morning next.]
[November 14 Omitted.]
Wednesday, November 15.
The Turkey Company, according to Order, gave an Account, at the Bar, of the Orders for the failing of the Fleet, and the number of Dutch and English Ships for the Convoy.
[Sir George Rooke informed the Speaker, by Letter, that he was very ill, and could not at present attend the House. So he was ordered to attend, together with the other Admirals, on Friday.]
Thursday, November 16.
[Mr Foley, from the Commissioners for taking the Public Accounts, presented to the House a State of what Money had been given for maintenance of the Fleet during the War, and what they had received thereof.]
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Misapplication of Money by Assignments—But one Reason may be, the Treasury cannot resist superior Commands; and one great Reason of this misapplying is, the Commissioners of the Treasury are not upon Oath. Formerly, in King James I's time, there were Commissioners of the Treasury, till a Lord Treasurer was named, but now not to be upon Oath, and to have the disposition of all the King's Treasury!—I hope you will consider of it. At the Grand Committee for the Fleet, I believe there was a Million owing to the Navy. All issues are for service done, and to be done, and that makes the confusion. I hope, there will be remedy for the future. Many of the Seamen take service from the King of France. If some remedy be not taken to provide for and encourage the Seamen, they will desert.
Mr Montagu.] I suppose no man can expect any great matter from a Paper read, as has been said, tumultuously. I have been but two Years in the Treasury, but I find the great occasion was, the first Year of all, a great Debt was left upon the Navy.—And so went on upon that Subject.
Several of the Treasury, and Commissioners of Accounts, spoke to it.
[Friday, November 17.
The Turkey Company presented to the House a Narrative, in writing, of what they declared on Wednesday at the Bar of the House.
Lord Falkland presented also several Papers relating to the Instructions and Orders concerning the Turkey Fleet, &c. And the Admirals, that commanded the Fleet last Summer (fn. 1), being called in, delivered the results of the Council of War, and a Narrative of their Proceedings, &c.
Sir George Rooke, being so lame of the Gout, that he could not stand, was brought to the Bar in a Chair, where he delivered a Narrative of his Proceedings, &c. And (in respect of his indisposition) he was then dismissed for the present.
Resolved, That, upon Examination of the Miscarriage of the Fleet, and the loss the Turkey Company hath sustained this Summer, this House is of Opinion, That there hath been a notorious and treacherous (fn. 2) mismanagement in that Affair.
To proceed on Monday.
Saturday, November 18.
Lord Falkland presented to the House an Estimate of the Charge of the Navy for the Year 1694, amounting to 2,346,132 l. for 118 Ships, and 40,000 Men.
Resolved, That 400,000 l. be granted to their Majesties, towards a Supply for Maintenance of the Fleet for the Year 1694.]
Monday, November 20.
[On the Miscarriages of the Fleet.]
Lord Falkland.] We have now an Admiral, and are without a Secretary. If Mr Russel be put in, the Secretary (Nottingham) will go out. The Commissioners of the Admiralty sent for an Account of the Execution of their Orders; and that Account was not sent for a long time after. They ought either to have executed their Orders, or sent word why they did not. Two things were to be considered by the Fleet, the Coast of England to be guarded, and the Streights Fleet—They knew nothing of the Mediterranean Fleet, nor the Brest Fleet; and so the Admirals did neither. If Orders were found impracticable, with respect to the Board, they ought to have had notice. The Council of War thought them impracticable: If they were ill Orders, why was it not represented? If good, why not obeyed? The loss was a great misfortune to the Nation, and all by mismanagement. It was a great Charge for Sir George Rooke to be sent away without Orders—Such a chain of Causes all along, that I cannot think all this was done by Chance. If some Course be not taken, all will be lost, and it is no where to be done but here. Those that sit at the Helm, how can they serve the Kingdom and King James too?
[Ordered, That the Admirals do attend to-morrow.]
Tuesday, November 21.
Admiral Killegrew gave an Account of what Lord Falkland charged, and Rutter's Information was read. He was ordered to be sent for, and confronted with the Admirals.
Captain Kerr, who took Rutter.] He gave no Account to the Admirals of the Brest Fleet being out, nor to me, nor to any of my Company. I took him pretending to exchange Prisoners at Nantz, but he brought Currants from Nantz, &c.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] By the Act, there is to be no correspondence with France, and this Rutter was employed to exchange Prisoners, and then falls to trade with France, with Currants from Nantz. He tells you a story, but that has little weight upon me, if he be not a Man of Credit. How many have sworn in Westminster-Hall, and yet stood in the Pillory!
Mr. Hampden.] I have observed, that an unreasonable Defence, as well as an unreasonable Accusation, will prejudice a Man. I never saw this Rutter, but you have his Examination, and his Answer, upon Oath. It seems, it is thought slight because Rutter gives it— I observe, that it is strange, he should be so long with the Admirals, and not utter fix Words of the Brest Fleet being out; which makes me think him not so candid and ingenuous as he should be. As I would accuse nobody, so I would condemn nobody, hand over head.
Sir Thomas Littleton.] Rutter might hear at Nantz that the French Fleet was laid up—He says, upon Oath, "It was not so much as enquired by the Admirals, what became of the French Fleet."
Mr Montagu.] I would have Rutter's Information read, because some heard it not—It was a little too forward, to accuse Rutter before you heard him.
Mr Foley.] I have read Rutter's Affidavit, and I think it is the fairest way to have Rutter and the Admirals face to face, and then you are ripe for Judgment. I would send for Rutter presently.
[Rutter's Information was read, and he was ordered to be sent for.]
Sir Edward Seymour.] Since observation has been made, why the Admirals did not confront the Evidence sooner, [I would ask,] whether they had any notice that such Information was made? Without the best Evidence in the World, I would not have the Admirals discouraged in their Service.
[They were ordered to attend again the next day.]
Wednesday, November 22.
[Debate on the Miscarriages of the Fleet resumed.]
Mr Papillon.] The Admirals had nine Weeks Provision. The Captains give still less Provision in than they have—They have had, upon all accounts, rather more than less.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] You cannot have who is in the right, or who is in the wrong, till you have the Account. There should be an Indenture betwixt the Purser and the Victualler, who understands always the Purser—There has been great clamour, that they had no Victuals.
Mr Montagu.] You have delivered your Opinion, "That there has been a traiterous Mismanagement, &c."I think it proper to hear the Admirals; a thing so much discoursed upon! I believe the Admirals are ready to give you account. Rooke's Misfortune was the 17th of June—They came not till the 22d; and might have had Beverage upon the Portugal Coasts.
Col. Cornwall.] They were ready, with a fair Wind, from the 6th of June to the 14th. Why so great a Fleet as seventy-five capital Ships, and make no use of that Wind to go over to the Coasts of France ? Mons. Tourville was not ready to come out. This I take to be the ground of all, not hindering the Enemy from coming out; and, instead of that, did not sail till the 3d of May.
Sir John Parsons.] This will appear a lame excuse of the Admirals—They were ordered four months Provisions——
Mr Wharton.] I am of opinion with Parsons, "That want of Victuals is a lame excuse." I would ask the Admirals, when they parted with Rooke, whether they took any survey of what Provisions they had on board?
The Admirals [Killegrew, Delaval, and Shovel] at the Bar.
The Speaker.] What day did the three Admirals go on board the Fleet?
The Admirals.] We beg the favour to have the Questions in writing. We went on board the latter end of April.
Question. From April to the 22d of May, what survey was taken of Provisions?
Answer. The Ships were not all together; they were in several Ports. We cannot make Answer to the survey, till we look over our Papers. There were seventy-five great Ships at Spithead, on the 6th or 7th of May—It was the 13th or 14th before the Dutch came in.
The Speaker.] The House is informed, that, from the 6th of May to the 14th, the Wind was fair to come before Brest, to prevent the French coming forth.
Answer.] Our Orders came not to our hands till the 20th. So great a number of Ships do great mischief to one another, when the weather is not settled. Our Orders were to take Rooke into our company. He answered, "He wanted some Provisions." He wrote to the Commissioners of the Admiralty, and we could not sail till the 30th. The Wind was against us—Several Ships were ready, but they wanted Provisions. But it can never be expected, that we should keep account of our Provisions. We issue out our Orders to every Flag, and they to the Captains, who return the wants to the Admiralty-board.
Question. To what time did the Provisions last?
Admiral Killegrew.] 'Tis impossible to give an Answer to that. I hope this House will exact nothing impossible from us. We came to Torbay the 21st. We cannot carry Numbers in our heads—We sent a particular account to the Admiralty of all Ships, from Torbay, when we got all our Ships together— We took account of the Captains, two or three days after parting from Rooke—For account of Beer, we cannot rummage the Ships; for other Victuals, we took account but in part.
Question. When you were surprized that your Instructions were contrary to the Council of War, did you represent it?
Answer. We received our Orders the 20th, and called another Council of War, and resolved to sail the 24th; but the Wind was not good; and hearing nothing from the Council, we supposed them to be their Orders. We took it to be our duty to obey Orders. We thought it not fit to capitulate. When we had positive Orders we must obey.
Question. Why did you part with the Turkey Fleet, before you knew whether the French were come out?
Answer.] We had Instructions to go as far with Rooke as we thought necessary; and the Resolution of the Council of War was our Opinion—Though we knew the French Fleet was out, yet we were to obey Orders—We find we are mightily blamed for our Orders to Rooke—All our Opinions were, that it was an improper Order, and not to be executed— We all desire to give our Answers to the Questions in Writing. They withdrew.
Lord Falkland.] They answer, "They had no Orders till the 19th of May." 'Tis true, there were no Orders till then for Rooke; but they had Orders, in March, "That they should do their best to annoy the Enemy"—They tell you, "They had no account of their Provisions but at random."—But did ever men go to sea, without knowing what Provisions they had on board?—'Tis easy for a man to know from the Pursers. They tell you, "They were surprized with the Orders of the 14th;" and they say, "It was not their business to capitulate."—They had the Turkey Fleet in their hands—They say, "Their Orders were not practicable;" and yet not represent it!—We never heard this the 15th of May, nor the 23d. We never heard of it till July—How could we give those Orders, without knowing whether the French Fleet was out? There was no impossible thing required of them, the Wind and Weather permitting. Their fault was, they did not know whether the French Fleet was out, and not they that gave the Orders.
Sir John Parsons.] This might have been easily rectified, without rummaging the Ship, by the Purser's Indentures in Kind, Credit, and ready Money. I was formerly a Commissioner of the Victualling-Office, but now a Contractor. I thank God, I was no Commissioner during these Miscarriages.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] I have heard the Commissioners of the Navy make great complaint of the Victuallers. You are told of "Credit, and ready Money."—I think it no great "Credit" for Papillon to imitate Parsons. There is something of this that we do not know, which I would enquire of from the Commissioners of the Navy. I would know, from Falkland, whether all were ordered to go together? I think it was the Opinion given by all the Flag-Officers, to deliver to the Admiralty what their Opinion was—Upon the 19th comes the Order, by his Majesty's Command, before whom this Opinion of the Council of War was. I wonder that an Order came, and no notice taken of their Opinion, a thing of so great weight!—Upon this Order, transmitted to the Admiralty, they conclude to conduct the Turkey Fleet to Ushant. Now, in business of so great moment, why were not their directions from the Admiralty? There were no Instructions before the Separation.—But I think it was to justify themselves, come what will. I think the Order was a very lame Order. If the Resolution was not well grounded, they ought to have had a better.
Lord Falkland.] They had full power to sail when they thought fit. We have no reason to think the Orders were not practicable, because they said they would be executed. We could not know whether the French Fleet was got out; but they should have known it. This is only that we should be kept in the dark— This shows they would neither obey the Orders, nor represent them.
Mr Smith.] Supposing the Orders ambiguous, they never sent to desire those Orders to be explained; but sailed away without it.
Mr Montagu.] You have examined the Admirals to one particular point. The excuse, in defence of the Admirals, is, "That they had not Provisions:" If they had, then 'tis their fault. Pray first consider that You have asked the Admirals several Questions. They make exact Answers to some things, and are short in others—To take account of Provisions, surely, is not the part of an Admiral—If they had had their quantity, they might have fought the French Fleet, and then any Country would have given them Credit. I propose this Question, "That there was a sufficient quantity of Beer to convoy the Turkey Fleet out of these Seas."
Sir John Lowther.] None of the Victuallers say the Fleet had four Months Provisions. When the Lords of the Council went down to the Fleet, they were so far from being victualled, that they were still carrying on board.
Lord Falkland.] The Admirals confessed they had forty-eight days Beer on board.
Mr Foley.] I find, upon the whole matter, that one third of the Victuals were not delivered in kind. They had all other Provisions; but the Beer is the Question. The Return made by the Pursers to the Admiralty, was forty-three days Provision—They might have fallen in with Rooke, at that time. But I observe that this survey of the Beer was not till the Admirals parted from Rooke. The mischief of allowing this way of victualling will be of great inconvenience—Because the Victual was so strait, they stayed till it was too late to go. The Victuallers had two Men of War to convoy them to Plymouth; but a French Privateer took two, and they looked on.
Sir John Parsons.] They had express Orders to victual for four months—As soon as they came to Sea, they put six men to four mens allowance; which might have been Victual till Christmas. But I am apt to believe there was not so much—The whole of the Beer, for four months, was put on board the Ships for the Descent.
Mr Finch.] Give me leave to remind you, how this Debate began, and how it has been proceeded in— 1. You have adjourned hearing Rutter. Then the Book of Orders for Reasons why they stayed at Torbay, and did not go out, pursuant to Orders—Then the state of the Victuals in May. Then you called in the Admirals, and asked, Why they stayed from the 6th to the 16th, and did not go out? "1. They were not under Orders." "2. The Line of Battle was not full. And, "3. They wanted Victuals." I remember, it was said, "They were under general Orders to annoy the Enemy;" if they had advice of it, then how pursued? When that comes, you have opportunity to search that to the bottom. This is a Question that involves the consideration of the whole matter, which depends not upon the Victual. How far they were to go to convoy them from the Brest Fleet, and Toulon Squadron; whether they were to go to Cadiz, or how to proceed with respect to the Toulon Squadron, you will understand better, when Gentlemen please to open that matter. This does accuse, or excuse those Persons. As to the Victuals, the matter is of weight. Now, whether these Ships had reason to stay in Torbay, for want of Victuals? Therefore have the Commissioners of the Navy to give you account what Victuals were on board. The Question is not, what Beer was on board them for Lagos-Bay, but whether, by Order, they were to part from the Fleet at Cadiz, or go farther.
Sir Edward Seymour.] I make no doubt but their Orders were "to annoy the Enemy," if they met with no opposition but Wind and Weather—But as to the Victuals, when setting out the Fleet, I called for an Account; and the Victuals were said to be for four Months; but now 'tis explained, "that a third part was in Specie, a third part in Credit, and a third part in Money." As long as this is so, 'tis impossible to say what Provisions were on board. If they went off from the Coast, at Sea they could neither have Victuals for Money—Therefore have the Commissioners of the Navy before you, and know what was on board in Specie. What I mean is, the Columns of Indenture between Purser and Victualler. If so, then the Victual in Specie is only for five Weeks.
Sir John Lowther.] See the Account of the Victuallers, and the Survey taken on board; then you will see, by comparing, to make a judgment. I agree with Wharton, "that there are several other things as material;" but as for this Question, you are not ripe, by any means, for it; you have not the matter before you; the Gentlemen have better information than myself, that are ready for this Question about victualling. The Admirals deny the matter of fact, and that is not yet rectified.
The Speaker.] The Objection against the Question is, "That there is not yet given in what Victuals they had in Specie." What Beer they had at Torbay you have not. The Question is, "Whether they had sufficient Beer to convoy Rooke out of danger?"
Mr Boyle. (fn. 3) ] You have not yet Evidence to give a Vote upon; and therefore put the previous Question.
[To proceed on Monday.]
[November 23, 24, and 25, Omitted.]
Monday, November 27.
[Debate on the Miscarriages of the Fleet resumed,]
The Commissioners of the Navy being called in, said, "The Fleet had forty-six days Beer."
Mr Howe.] I would not give my Vote, like the Admirals, that go to Sea with oracular Instructions.
Mr Comptroller Wharton.] Whether the Admirals had Beer enough to go to Sea, to carry the Smyrna Fleet out of danger? Whether they had Provision enough to keep out to Sea, to convoy the Smyrna Fleet out of danger? Whether they obeyed their Orders like wise men, and honest men, to leave the Turkey Fleet before they were out of danger? is your Question.
Mr Finch.] Is this a proper Question, and fit to be put? If they had no Orders, and knew not where the French Fleet were, 'tis not the Question—The meaning of the Question is, having thirty-nine days Provision, to convoy them out of danger of the Brest-Fleet—But they were not out of danger of the Toulon Squadron. Had they Provision sufficient to convoy them from the Brest Fleet, and Toulon Squadron? So this Question supposes they had Orders, and that they knew the French Fleet was in Lagos-Bay.
Sir Robert Rich.] Something was spoken, by Finch, of "the rubbish part of Palmes's Speech." I have seen "rubbish" make good mortar. Suppose they had said, "they wanted nothing but Anchors and Cables"— The Commissioners of the Navy have told you, "they had full Victual." If Orders were good, and they not in a capacity of obeying them——
Mr Sollicitor Trevor.] One Excuse of the Admirals is, they wanted Victuals—Consider what the Admirals have for their justification! The want of Victuals. This Question will justify the Victuallers, but not condemn the Admirals. But when this Question is over, then 'tis a proper time to enquire, whether that proportion was sufficient.
Mr Montagu.] When you adjourned the Debate, it was because you had not the whole matter before you. If this Question before you be not proper, no Question can be proper. When you find they had sufficient Provision, &c. the next is, what Orders?— They had sufficient Provision to prevent France from over-heading us again, and they might have done it. Lagos is a great and deep Bay, and they might have preserved the Smyrna Fleet from danger, and the whole Fleet too.
Lord Falkland.] There is more concern in the Question than the Admirals. If they had not Provision sufficient, the fault is somewhere; if they had not Orders, somewhere else—Rooke's Fleet fell into the French hands eleven days after the Admirals left the Fleet.
Sir Robert Rich.] The most eminent Merchants never feared the Toulon Squadron. Rooke had strength enough to fight the Toulon Squadron. Most of the opinion of the Merchants was, that the Count D'Estrees was as much afraid of Rooke, as Rooke of him.
Sir William Whitlock.] I wonder the Admiralty should not give directions to convoy them out of danger of the Toulon Squadron, as well as of the Brest; they, it seems, thought as much of the one as the other.
[Resolved, (on a Division, 188 to 152) That there was sufficient Beer on board the main Fleet, when Sir George Rooke separated, to have convoyed Sir George Rooke's Squadron, and the Merchant-Ships, out of danger of the Brest Fleet.]
Wednesday, November 28.
An ingrossed Bill for more frequent Elections of Parliaments, (brought in by Mr Brockman) was read the third time.
Sir John Lowther.] Declare the matter of the King's Negative Voice, and let the word "holden" stand.
Mr Harley.] I am for the word "Parliament holden," because you are possessed of it; and it is not for the interest of England to part with a word, in so many Laws made use of.
Sir Robert Rich.] A doubt arises from them against the word, that the King's Prerogative of dissolving Parliaments is taken away; but if it be only meant and intended, that a Parliament must be every year, if others intend something else, let them say so.
Lord Falkland.] This Bill is of great consequence; the intent of it is good, and to have frequent Sessions of Parliaments, and a new Parliament. I am for the intent of the Clause. Instead of the word "holden," I move, that it may be a Parliament to meet once a year, at least.
Mr Montagu.] To the word, "declare." If it be the intention for annual Sessions, give me leave to offer my opinion why I am against it. Though those Acts mentioned do enjoin it, yet there have been no complaints for not calling Parliaments so frequently. In King James I's time, when the Commons did insert all their rights and liberties, they make no mention of these laws. But the Constitution of the Nation was quite otherwise then, for the Parliament judged causes, and made explanations of Laws, upon the desire of the Judges, which now they do in Westminster-Hall: But to determine to meet actually, whether there be occasion, or not, I think not proper.
Mr Harley.] I keep strictly to the word "declare." You have been told that no complaints have been made, that those have not been annual Sessions; but there were complaints for want of Parliaments, and so enacted 50 Edward III, "That there should be annual Parliaments. There was an Act already, and it should be observed." The Bishop of St Asaph opened the Parliament from the King—That there were not frequent Parliaments, but as for that of King James I, they tell the King, "that if Kings were immortal, they had no need of such Laws," but they proceeded farther; "they know not what Kings may come, therefore to provide against oppressions"—The Prerogative always increases, but the Liberties of the People are at a stand.
Sir Edward Seymour.] I could wish our condition such, that we might support the Government, without Parliament. I would willingly bate my share in Parliament to have a share in that condition. I am not very fond of these words, because we had them three or four hundred years ago, and are never the better for them. Is the Prerogative of the Crown less than in Edward II's time? At that time all the Laws of a Parliament were but one Law, in Items. In those times the King took one and rejected another, and so the Judges were in doubt, what passed for a Law, and what not. Some Laws that passed are not in the Roll. Will you put in a word that may be doubtful, when there is no need of it? I know not what improvement may be made, in time to come, of a word doubtful.
Sir Charles Porter (fn. 5).] I think it absolutely necessary that this be put to some certainty; else Parliaments would be in power to sit as long as they please, and the King not have power to prorogue nor adjourn them. If you pass this Clause without a plain explanation, it may be of ill consequence. I would so explain it, that it may not be a question hereafter. Sometimes the Crown, and sometimes the Commons, differ in expressions of words, and this is a word that may be fundamental. I move that this may be so explained, that what you intend may not encroach upon the Prerogative of the King.
Sir Christ. Musgrave.] You have no Clause before you, only the word, "declare;" that word is only moved. I see no reason of the difficulty why you should not insert the word, "declare." Is it not always meant, you have a right when you declare? It was a right the subjects had to frequent Parliaments; and if you now enact, and not declare, I fear your right commences from that time only.
Mr Palmes.] Frequent Parliaments, and the Dissolution of this, was the thing I aimed at before, and so I do now.
[The Clause was rejected 129 to 89. And the Bill was rejected, 146 to 136.]
[On the King's Speech.]
Mr Hampden.] You have considered the Fleet, and another part of the King's Speech, very material, viz. The Land Forces, is behind. Unless you grant a Supply, I know not how you can support the Government, the Treasury is so low. Nothing at all has yet been said of it. 'Tis so necessary to have a consideration of it, that I move, That you would grant the King a Supply for the Land Forces.
Earl of Ranelagh.] I second the Motion. I must tell you, the Army is in very ill condition. In their quarters in Flanders they have no money, and no credit.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] A Supply is moved for, but I cannot allow we have an Army in Flanders; you have no obligation to have an Army in Flanders. Vast sums have gone thither, which can never return; besides our loss at Sea. If the Privy-Council advises not the King, we must do it. Had we attended the Sea, the French could have done little in Flanders. It goes to my heart that the King of England should be at the head of a Confederate Armies. I hope that, when it comes to be debated, you will think the Army is for defence of the Kingdom. We had no assistance in conquering Ireland from the Confederates; we needed them not—The year's expence of Cromwell's Army was but 600,000 l. If we come to that pass that our Army cannot preserve us, we shall be a despised people—By the fundamental Law of England, no Englishman can be forced out of England, without his own consent. Men have been found sent to the Tower, that would not go beyond sea, and if well proved you might impeach the Lieutenant of the Tower. In the year 1672, France took three of their Provinces—The Duke of Brandenbourg sent then 30,000 men, and now but 6000—They took the three Provinces again, and made a good Peace for themselves— The Hollanders rather get than lose by this War—They provide for our Army, and their own too—Butter, Cheese, &c. If two Millions go out of your main stock, what will become of you? Let us not talk of giving money, and not know where to raise it, to the derision of all the World.
Sir Edward Seymour.] Time is too precious to delay. I wonder what Clarges understands the Parliament should make exceptions to. What these Land-Forces are, and how to employ them to another purpose—I move, That a Supply may be granted for the Land-Forces.
Col. Cornwall.] I ask pardon if I do not very well understand the Question. If you mean to supply the Army as the Fleet, I can come up to it. I desire they may have 3 or 400,000 l. for present supply.
The Speaker.] You cannot go into that Motion without going into a Grand Committee.
Sir Christopher Musgrave.] You can only make a Motion, and then consider whether you will go into a Committee of the whole House.
Sir Thomas Clarges.] Seymour said, "I spoke little to the purpose." I am so used to reflections that I take little notice of them. When Lord Ranelagh brought up the Forces to be 60,000 men, I thought it my duty not to let that go so. I observe that, when the Apostles spoke the truth of the Word, it was opposed by the Silversmiths that made the Shrines for Diana's Temple.
Earl of Ranelagh.] Though he makes that comparison, I am sorry for reflections—As for the 60,000, I said nothing of 60,000 men. You voted 54,000 last Session. I said, "The Forces in Flanders are in a starving condition for the present." What is proper to be done now, is only, That a Motion being made, &c. this House will consider of that Motion.
Wednesday, November 29.
[Debate on the Miscarriages resumed.]
John Rutter was called in.
The Speaker.] This House has been informed that you can give account of the Brest Fleet, &c.
Rutter.] I have given my Narrative upon Oath made to the Council. When I was before Admiral Killegrew, taken as a Prize, for taking in Currants from Nants, without Orders, I said, "I had done nothing but what I had orders for the 7th of May." In the morning I discovered six of the French Fleet, at anchor, and heard a Gun to give signal—I was carried before the Admirals, and gave account of fifteen sail of French, and four more sail—I saw that nobody took notice of what I said—He took my Pass from betwixt his fingers, and bid me withdraw— Killegrew was hot upon me about my loading—Shovel did ask me something, what it was I cannot say; I believe something of what I did see, and discover. He took my Pass, and so I did withdraw. Capt. Kerr was by, at some part of it, but his business was to get me as a Prize, which would be worth 2000 l. to him. He said nothing, but "that I must deliver my loading to the Prize-Office." Capt. Kerr met me on the Deck, when I did withdraw; only his Lieutenant came on board my Ship. I am not able to say what passed from Kerr, but being distracted about my Prize, I cannot remember—I met some coming out of the Channel, I suppose the Smyrna Fleet—I told it my Ship's Company—I am not able to say whether I did discourse of it to Capt. Barker, Captain of the St Vincent Fire-Ship, but I supposed I might say something to him—'Twas spoken often amongst my Ship's Company—They might have some Prizes coming out of Dunkirk. I observed some Ships coming out of Brest, just as the Sun came from the Horizon—I had eleven Sailors in my Ship—I had two more that were sick in the Cabbins. I told my Ship's Company, who were most sick and dying, I would make all the haste I could to Conquest-Road—I met with a Privateer, a tier of 6 Guns and 10 Patteraroes—The Lieutenant told me he was chased the day before, and if they had followed, he must have been taken—I never related any thing to Capt. Kerr, that the Brest Fleet was sailed up—I came ashore at Portsmouth the 14th of May—I came not up hither in three weeks—As soon as I came up, I went to the Prize-Office about my Cargo of three or four Ton of Currants taken from me. I was in the Prize Office, with Mr Parkhurst, and told him, in the Garden, the same I have done here. Major Churchill was concerned in the Cargo, and one Mr Alston. I was at Portsmouth some days after I landed—Mr Alston can give account of the time—I did sign my examination before the Council. No person whatever has been with me to make good this examination.
Mr Parkhurst.] There was a sale of these Currants on the 14th—Hearing what he had said of the French Fleet, I was willing to hear him, and he gave us this relation, as you have heard— All his men were sick, but three, and he had not men to sail his Ship—He got one.
Rutter.] I told Capt. Kerr, "That someShips were stirring, and if I did not make sail, I must bury my sick men"—I suppose then the French Fleet were out, and I told my Mate, Castle— They came out of Nantz River on the 6th, and I saw this on the 7th—All my Company but two and a boy were buried at Nantz. Capt. Kerr would have pressed my men, but I had none, but my two Prisoners that I brought from Nantz, and two men and a boy. The rest were all sick. My Ship was 120 Tons.
The Speaker.] Why did not you discover this intelligence to others besides Mr Parkhurst, and Major Churchill?
Rutter.] I do not remember—I have been a Seaman these 30 Years, born in the Isle of Thanet, by the North Foreland. I have been Master, and Mate, 20 Years and upwards; have been eight years employed by Sir William Scawen, and Alderman Lucy, and others. I have traded in the French trade 21 Years and upwards. I have served 20 Years apprentice to a Fisherman, and have my Neighbours ready to give account of my conversation. Several Neighbours and Merchants can testify of me—I saw fifteen sail, and four more coming out of Brest to windward, before the Wind, almost together. He withdrew.
Sir William Scawen.] I have known Rutter these eight Years, and he has always served me very honestly, and has the same repute upon the Exchange.
Serjeant Thurban.] I have known this Rutter these 19 Years. He lives in Ramsgate within the Jurisdiction of my Borough. I have had no dealing with the man, but I always have heard a good Character of him. I have heard this from his Neighbours, and all give credit to his information.
Sir Samuel Barnardiston.] I enquired after him on the Exchange, and have not heard a better Character of any man.
Col. Lee.] I know not whether his Character will answer your expectation of Gentlemen. Upon the Revolution he behaved himself bravely. He applied himself to his owners to be a Privateer, who could never get any account from him, and so were not willing to let him be a Privateer.
Sir John Fleete.] I have no particular acquaintance with the man, but I have heard of him, to be an honest man, by all that have dealt with him.
Mr Machell.] I'll tell you a fault that perhaps this man cannot get off from, viz. That he took Lord Peterborough prisoner.
Mr Howe.] I shall only make this observation, that I have known many pass for very honest Gentlemen, and, in this corrupt town, five or six years ago, they have proved otherwise. I reflect not upon the man, but let every one judge.
Daniel Castle.] I was Rutter's Mate. Under St Matthew's Point, the 7th of May, Rutter said, "He saw some Ships at anchor, and some under sail, and heard a Gun for more Ships" Rutter ordered to loose the Main-sail, and steer, for fear of being stopped. I saw the Ships, when I was with Rutter on the Deck. Hearing the Guns fired, we made all the sail we could. We took them to be part of the French Fleet. I heard twentyfive Guns fired, as more came out. The two Prisoners that were aboard us, saw it. They assisted us in bringing home our Ship, and a Carpenter, a Prisoner; the rest of the Ship's crew were sick and weak in the Cabins. We took them to be a Squadron of the main Fleet. I did not acquaint any person with what I saw, but believe my Captain did on board the Lenox, and the Flag. I remember Captain Kerr came on board our Ship, but I was not well when he came on board—There was such a discourse in France that their Ships were unrigged. But they were pressing men—The Lenox took us as Prize, and carried us to Portsmouth. A French Privateer, off from the Lizard, told us he had been chased, and that either his Mast, or Yard, was broken, but I heard nothing of the reason why the Lenox did not take him. I was carried on board the Lenox, and the two Prisoners. I was never examined, nor ever acquainted any with what I saw, nor had any discourse. I came ashore on May 14. I was three days on board the Lenox. I discoursed with no man there, and came to London. Our Ship was an hundred and odd Tons; we had eight or nine men to sail her.
Major Churchill, of Portsmouth] Rutter has been employed by me to carry French and English Prisoners. I asked him "what was the news?" He told me, "the Brest Squadron was out: Five were at anchor, and four more were coming out." He said, "He was carried on board the Admirals, and gave them account of it." He told this to me, and twenty more, at Portsmouth. I believe it ten days after his coming, and soon after the Lords of the Council went away, I did tell this to abundance of friends, and relations, I had in town. Rutter told it, I believe, twenty times, in Company of Captain Barker, and Mr Alston. I have known Rutter above nine months—He observed, "That fifteen more French Ships were coming out, and by firing their Guns he believed they might be forty sail coming out." This discourse he had in my Compting-House, when he came from Portsmouth, as I was writing. I heard him speak it upon the Exchange. About the 7th of May he saw them come out of Brest. He never made but one voyage for me before— He persormed his voyage very well. A Broker brought him to me at first; he was of good credit, and employed by Merchants, Owners of Ships, for several years—He was on board the Britannia at Spithead, and acquainted the Admirals with all this matter that he has said; the Admirals took little notice of what he said, only Sir Cloudesly Shovel asked him several Questions, and was very inquisitive where the French Fleet was; and he told him all this matter.
Sir Francis Child.] Rutter did say, "That Admiral Killegrew turned from him, and took little notice of what he said; the rest of the Admirals were in the room, and he addressed himself to Sir Cloudesly Shovel for his Pass."
Rutter.] In Nantz, they asked me, "where the Turkey Fleet was?" I told them, "they were ready to set sail, with thirty Men of War." They laughed me to scorn, and said "they knew better." There was a discourse at St Malo's of laying up the Fleet, but nothing at Nantz. I never said a word that the Brest Fleet was unrigged—There was much pressing before I came away, sending to Brest with all expedition. Captain Barker's boat brought me on board the Britannia, with only the boat's crew, and the Coxswain. I went immediately to the Admiral's cabbin-door. I waited there a quarter of an hour—Some Gentlemen were standing at the cabbin-window, but said nothing. I expected to have been asked several questions, but I heard none.
Sir John Lowther.] Now Rutter tells you, he was asked no questions, nor gave any account of the French Fleet, but they told him of his being called in question, if the Parliament had sat, for carrying French Goods.
Mr Foley.] 'Tis time to make an end of this matter; and I know not how, unless you call in the Admirals, Carr, and Rutter, and his Mate, and confront them all together.
[The three Admirals and Captain Kerr were then severally called in and confronted with Rutter. The Admirals were afterwards called in, and heard; and then withdrew. And the Question being put, That it does appear to this House, that the Admirals, that commanded the Fleet the last summer, had, on the 11th day of May last, Information that part of the Brest Fleet was going out to Sea; it passed in the Negative, 170 to 161.]


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subset: commoncrawl


text:
What does hot mess mean?
kgb answers » Local & Lookup » Definitions & Word Origins » What does hot mess mean?
Sunday, February 05 2012Source: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hot%20mess
Top 10 questions Definitions & Word Origins
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Manek Chaudhary
Pasand Apni Apni
Basu Chatterjee directs this romantic comedy about fortunate misunderstandings. When wealthy industrialist Sandeep Anand (Mithun Chakraborty) crosses paths with the beautiful theater actress Geeta (Rati Agnihotri), the theater company owner capitalizes on the free publicity. He spreads rumors that the two are an item and that the rich patron is sponsoring the show. The gossip causes much confusion, hilarity and possibly ... love?


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DSCF1032, a photo by shane_vanderhart on Flickr.
I was at Iowa Governor Terry Branstad's weekly press conference this morning and as I was headed back to my car I took this picture. I'm to the south east of the building looking up.
Iowa has the coolest state capitol building bar none!


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Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:09 PM
goclark (30,404 posts)
Pat Buchanan Speaks His Mind on Race Relations
Buchanan was a guest on the G. Gordon Liddy Show.........
A Moment of Silence for the comments below:
Election 2012
Buchanan: White America Died Last Night
Nov. 07, 2012
Conservative political pundit Pat Buchanan stoked controversy today by claiming that Barack Obama's reelection has 'killed White America'.
The paleoconservative nativist is no stranger to racial controversy, having previously been accused of writing books with racist and anti-semitic undertones.
But the former Nixon advisor was more explicit on the G. Gordon Liddy Show this morning. When asked for his reaction to Obama's victory, Buchanan replied brazenly:
"White America died last night. Obama's reelection killed it. Our 200 plus year history as a Western nation is over. We're a Socialist Latin American country now. Venezuela without the oil."
Stunned by his clear racisim, Liddy tried to walk his guest back from the ledge:
"With what you just said right there...You seem to imply that white people are better than other people. That's not really what you're saying is it?"
"Of course that's what I'm saying," Buchanan replied "Isn't it obvious? Anything worth doing on this Earth was done first by white people."
"Who landed on the moon? White people. Who climbed Mount Everest? White people. Who invented the transistor? White people. Who invented paper? White people. Who discovered algebra? White people."
"And don't give me all this nonsense about Martin Luther King and civil rights and all that. Who do you think freed the slaves? Abraham Lincoln. A white guy!"
Carte Blanche
"But we're not led by Lincoln anymore, we're led by an affirmative-action mulatto who can't physically understand how great America once was."
"I cried last night G. I cried for hours. It's over for all of us. The great White nation will never survive another 4 years of Obama's leadership"
Liddy tried to reason with Buchanan, reminding him that he shares similar positions with the President on Afghanistan, Iraq, and relations with Russia:
"Of course I agree with half of what he does," Buchanan answered, "He's half white! That's not the half I'm worried about."
Buchanan served as a speechwriter in the Nixon White House. He was fired as an MSNBC analyst this year following the publication of a book many considered to be racist.
18 replies, 4462 views
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Response to goclark (Original post)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:10 PM
Deep13 (39,128 posts)
1. He is just in full-on Klan mode now. nt
Response to Deep13 (Reply #1)
Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:01 AM
MADem (135,373 posts)
11. I guess! I just found this thread and damn! He's in crazy talk territory in a big way! nt
Response to goclark (Original post)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:13 PM
Deep13 (39,128 posts)
2. And for the record, I sleep well at night knowing that...
...an "affirmative-action mulatto" has his finger on America's nuclear button, because I know he will never press it.
Response to goclark (Original post)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:21 PM
AndyA (16,993 posts)
3. Good grief.
I think MSNBC kept him on the air way too long.
Unfortunately, I think there are many who feel the same as he does, which is why we can't get anything done in this country. The lack of respect for President Obama is appalling.
Response to goclark (Original post)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:23 PM
JustFiveMoreMinutes (1,552 posts)
4. Satire. i fell for it too and had to backtrack
Response to JustFiveMoreMinutes (Reply #4)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:07 PM
The Velveteen Ocelot (52,993 posts)
5. With Buchanan it can be hard to tell.
IRL he treads a pretty fine line.
Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #5)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:21 PM
goclark (30,404 posts)
6. Really ? The Huffinton Post got it all wrong too??
Response to goclark (Reply #6)
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 06:06 PM
JustFiveMoreMinutes (1,552 posts)
13. What does that link have to do with the first?
Yes, Buchanan has been called on his racist remarks...
hence why the 'story' you originally quoted sounded so 'lifelike'......
Response to JustFiveMoreMinutes (Reply #4)
Sat Jan 5, 2013, 09:02 AM
MADem (135,373 posts)
12. HA--the best satire is BELIEVABLE!! And that sure was! nt
Response to goclark (Original post)
Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:38 PM
loyalkydem (1,678 posts)
7. So glad he was fired from MSNBC
Response to loyalkydem (Reply #7)
Sun Dec 30, 2012, 03:44 PM
goclark (30,404 posts)
8. Happy New Year!
Don't miss him one bit!
Response to goclark (Original post)
Wed Jan 2, 2013, 04:39 AM
Number23 (24,542 posts)
9. "Who invented paper?" "Umm, I'll take The Chinese for $300, Pat..."
This whole thing is weird...
Response to Number23 (Reply #9)
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 12:34 PM
goclark (30,404 posts)
10. Sure is weird
Response to goclark (Original post)
Thu Jan 10, 2013, 04:49 PM
1StrongBlackMan (31,849 posts)
14. To answer Pat's questions in order ...
"Who landed on the moon?
A couple white PEOPLE; but, not the White race.
Who climbed Mount Everest?
Several more white people; but, not the white race.
Who invented the transistor?
Three White people; but not the white race.
Who invented paper?
A chinese inventor; not the white race.
Who discovered algebra?
An Arab Mathematician; not the white race.
Why do white people as a race get credit for the positive accomplishment of an individual white person (even, those of non-white people according to pat) and none of the blame for the bad act of a white person ; whereas, non-whites get the blame of the bad act of a non-white person and none of the credit for a non-white person's accomplishments?
Pat ... You get credit for landing on the moon when you accept the blame for Jeffrey Damher, Manson and Hitler.
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #14)
Wed Jan 16, 2013, 10:44 PM
goclark (30,404 posts)
16. absolutely ...!
Response to goclark (Original post)
Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:47 PM
SemperEadem (8,053 posts)
15. for him and pat robertson
there's an extra hot place in hell waiting on them... that gives me some measure of comfort.
Response to goclark (Original post)
Sat Feb 9, 2013, 02:10 PM
MrScorpio (67,414 posts)
17. You gotta love Pat when he give us a piece of his mind on something. He's so generous
No matter how little he has, he's always willing to give.
Response to goclark (Original post)
Thu Feb 28, 2013, 04:51 PM
noiretextatique (27,232 posts)
18. thank god it's over
and i am soooo enjoying all the whining from these racists assholes.


text:
- 1984 Reentering China
By the early 1990s, Chad Holliday, then head of DuPont Asia Pacific, was convinced that China had the region's highest growth potential and plans for Shenzhen were laid. An initial investment of $20 million covered a facility for the production of Tyvek® and Riston® light sensitive film, which went into production in 1992 and was an immediate success. Five years later, a state-of-the-art plant for the production of Tynex® nylon filament opened, giving DuPont a large share of the fast-growing premium toothbrush market. Expansion at Shenzhen has also come about through local joint ventures, including a $30 million Teflon® coatings operation.


text:
If Lady Amelia Caversham is to marry before another Season passes, she'd better find help-namely, that of the infamous courtesan-turned matchmaker Sophia Dalby. But even Amelia is shocked when Lady Dalby informs her that they will hold interview for the position. And most shocking of all? Only Dukes need apply.
Publisher: Berkley (February 03, 2009)
Format: EPUB
File size: 294 KB
Protection: DRM
Language: English


text:
This game was classified by the community with the following category scores - Violence=1/3, Sex=0/3, Mature Content=0/3. Battle your way up to the moon, to get some delicious moon cheese, that not only tastes magnificent it also comes with some bonus effects, and then enjoy as the points just keep coming.
Buy Xbox content on Xbox.com. Your Xbox 360 console will automatically download the content next time you turn it on and connect to Xbox Live.Learn More
Click to create and send a link using your email application


text:
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text: The Wheaton College community is saddened by the death of Associate Professor of English Dr. Brett Foster. Dr. Foster died last night, following a battle with cancer. "Wheaton College mourns the death of Professor Brett Foster, who has been a good, true friend to his students and colleagues on campus," said Wheaton College President Dr. Philip G. Ryken. "Dr. Foster's exceptional poems will be a lasting treasure for all who read them, both inside and outside the church." "While we rejoice that Professor Foster's earthly struggles are over and find comfort in the promise of his eternal life with Christ, we grieve the loss suffered by his wife Anise, his children Gus and Avery, and his many friends among the faculty, staff, students, and alumni of Wheaton College," Ryken said. Dr. Foster's award-winning publications include The Garbage Eater (Triquarterly Books/Northwestern University Press, 2011) and Fall Run Road (Finishing Line Press, 2012). Beyond campus, Dr. Foster shared his poetry and expertise at readings at The Poetry Foundation in Chicago, the Chicago Shakespeare Theater, and more. His poems have been published in Anglican Theological Review, Books & Culture, Bostonia, The Christian Century, Harvard Review, Yale Review, and other journals, as well as in the anthologies And What Rough Beast: Poems at the End of the Century (Ashland Poetry Press, 1999), American Religious Poems (Library of America, 2006), Best New Poets (University of Virginia Press, 2007), Imago Dei (ACU Press, 2012), Before the Door of God: An Anthology of Devotional Poetry (Yale University Press, 2013), The Gulf Stream: Poems of the Gulf Coast (Snake Nation Press, 2013), and St. Peter's B-List: Contemporary Poems Inspired by the Saints (Ave Maria Press, 2014). Dr. Foster received grants from the PEN American Center and the Illinois Arts Council, and was awarded the Willis Barnstone Prize for translation and the Baltimore Review Poetry Prize, among others. A memorial service for Dr. Foster will take place at 1 p.m. on Saturday, November 14 in Pierce Memorial Chapel, located on the southeast corner of Washington and Franklin streets in Wheaton. An obituary with additional details is available here. Read more about Dr. Foster's life and work and share your remembrances >


text:
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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide, which can point you to expert advice and support.
Please, please, please help. I feel distraught, I don't know what to do.
My partner of 12 years just admitted he has been having sex with transexuals, no a one off, every now and then. I feel disgusted that he has been lying to me all this time. I need serious help, because all I want to do is kill myself.
I knew he enjoyed watching the transexual porn, but accepted he had this addiction. He has taken it a step further with acting out his fantasy. I kept telling him he should give me a real shot at love if he can't be faithful (he has cheated before) but he kept insisting he loved me and wanted to be a family (we have four kids).
I know he will continue to live out his fantasy, because when I asked him he said he didn't know if he could live without this in his life.
I am happy he has felt he could be honest, but devastated by his reality. He has been living a whole different life. I think he has been using me has his cover to say he has a happy family.
He treats me like crap most of the time, but is a good, not great, father to our children.
I will never be intimate with him again because of his dishonesty, but I want out of the relationship. This is way too much for me to deal with. Too many secrets and lies.
I am pregnant now and would have to sacrifice everything I worked hard for. He has destroyed my life. Suicide is an option, butt would hurt my kids too much.
Please help someone, I am very fragile right now. Am crying as I type, so sorry if there are any grammatical errors.
I'm in East London too and I'm sending you live out over this mild grey day.
Please breathe, OP. This is a big deal and you absolutely need help. Don't get confused about being brave/coping and also panicking. Call a friend to talk to x
The last time he knocked me out was a month ago, yes I called the police. They arrested him and then released him without even telling me and he came straight back to the house.
I strongly agree with calling 101 again. Explain, tell them you want him to leave and ask for their help. Get a friend to be with you! Don't be ashamed. If you've been keeping all this secret then yes, your friend or DSis or whoever will be very shocked but the will hold your hand very tightly Please get help x
DS just wole up and got me thinking abit more rational and gave me the most wonderful hug as he normally does. To think I had lost all perspective and only thought about me and my feelings now.
Needhelpfast - hugs from your children are priceless. Stay strong you can do this - you are already being strong. X take little steps. X
The immediate priority is you, your welfare your physical/mental health
I see your pg contact the hosp,meet with the mw
If your mh is deteriorating and/or feeling suicidal go to a&e ask for psychiatric team
Call gpget immediate gp apt discuss what's going on,and your anxieties
I see youve said dh may be violent,you don't need to take this.call women aid
So sorry for your troubles
What real life support you have?
Any good pals to help out
This was me 5 weeks ago. My 'D'P of 9 years had been living another life with 8 other women.
The stories that he had told them, made me sick.
He told one of them he had cancer treatment.
Im 32 weeks pregnant. We were buying our first home, just needed to sign.
The night I found out, I drove off in the middle of the night, wheel spinning in anger, driving like a madwomen. I walked around tesco for an hour, I couldn't breathe properly. I wanted to end it all.
Yesterday I went to Tesco & chose new things for my new place that I'm moving into.
I know that sounds silly, but already I feel better.
I no longer walk on eggshells.
Please believe me, It will be better xxxxxxx
So glad you had a lovely hug. I echo advice to call the police on 101. You're pregnant and he knocked you out a month ago. There's nothing to consider. You will need help to handle this and you can tell as much or as little as you like. Keep looking at your DC, they love and need you. Please make yourself a cup of tea with two sugars. You'll get there. You really will x
Strength to you sunshine - you are amazing.
Suicide is not a option!!!!
U have 4 children.. U must think of them
Do report to police,get cad number they log details with
Book a lawyer, try keep dates,sequence of events.mention he hit you last month
Is your accommodation secure?will you be ok with him about
If need be contact local council re accommodation for family
Iam East London too and sending you big hugs!
You need to get out but, you know that already! You need to protect your children OP, they are relying on you!
The sooner you get him out the better
NeedHelpFast please dont hurt yourself, this is not your fault. Keep posting here so the wonderful women of mumsnet can support you.
What are you doing now needhelp? We are concerned about you lovely. This relationship cannot and must not go on, but your personal safety is paramount right now.
What are you doing and where is your partner?
Breathe, focus, breathe, focus. Stay with us. Do not let this excuse of a man ruin your life any longer.
He has form for violence so you need to call a couple of authority figures to ask for help. Calling your Midwife or the crisis team at your local hospital are good starting points?
I could PM you my landline number and you can talk to me? You need to get through hour by hour. Am glad your DS gave you a big hug. You are his world and your baby-on-way also needs you. Dig up every mental and emotional strength you can muster.
I am so angry also that police allowed him to return home last time without informing you. Fgs. <<<>>>
He is out now. He didn't say anything or do anything other than leave. I feel even more sick now, I don't know what the future holds.
UnlikelyAmazonian and Sunshinewithshowers I am sorry to hear of your situations.
I am in pieces. I can't really see a happy future.
I am looking forward to the birth of my child (not the labour).
A few horrible days and nights ahead.
Ok well that sounds very good.
Did you ask him to leave and do you know where he has gone?
Of course you feel sick. Of course you are afraid. And no doubt you will have difficult days and nights to get through.,
But you have been amazing. Just today. So the next few days you need to get more help - from any resource you can. Family/friends/professionals.
When is your baby due? (congratulations for this - I never had another child after ExH and I would have so loved one/five!)
I am still worried for you however. On what 'terms' has he left and can you make sure he cannot return to the house and get back in?
What family do you have? My family were next to useless and so were H's - no support whatsoever so I had to muster all sorts of help from embarassing sources. Everyone came to my rescue. You must do this. <<>>
I can talk to my sister, but not going to go into detail.
I think he wanted out but didn't want to be the one to leave because he didn't say anything. He will not be back. There is that little part of me that wanted him to beg me back and say how sorry he was, but he seemed very happy.
When we have split in the past, I have been the fool to say come back, the kids miss you. He would then make me have sex with him to prove he could still have me. I always hated having sex with him because he wanted me to do things I didn't feel comfortable with. I now to think where that thing has been I feel really sick. I said to my sis that my time with him has been a total waste, she disagreed and said it is an experience that you will learn from. 12 years of being lied to and abused. I am spoilt goods. I can't see myself moving past this. If I were to be with another man I will only think of this experience, so I doubt I will be intimate ever again.
Firstly, you are not "goods".
You will get over it in time. Just let it do it work.
You have 4+1 children to show for those 12 years. You cannot negate them.
I bet they are wonderful.
And think how fantastic your life will be without his presence.
Take one day at a time. You'll get there.
Big hug.
You are not 'spoilt goods', you are a strong woman, a mother, and a human being with a life ahead of you - which now won't be hampered by a lying, violent, abusive, disrespectful scumbag.
Don't let him win. Don't let his treatment of you make you feel unworthy. HE is the one with the problem, HE is the liar, the cheat, the thug.
Be strong, be angry, be free! We are all rooting for you.
Yes, we are all here for you. The pain is raw at the moment, you will grieve for the routine, the everyday life you had.
Then its like a weight lifting, the sun shining outside is another day for you to be happy, everything starts slotting into place.
My god, I could write over 100 scenarios now where he humilitated me, I never saw It at the time.
I said to myself for every second Im sad & crying, not eating, & being sick is a second for him to be feeling happy.
And theres no way Im letting that happen, so as cruel as I sound Im hoping every second I feel happy & look forward that he is feeling like shit.
Its the only way I have managed every day.
Its only just happened to you, so the shock is sickening, So please keep posting, your children need you, you sound amazing xxxx
No person is merely goods,you're the sum of all you've experienced and achieved
The experiences,good and bad,shape you. You're in no way spoilt.
Get good advice, see the gp and mw.and take care
Thank you all for being there for me. I was contemplating calling him and asking him if he knows how much he has hurt me, but I know that he wouldn't actually care because if he did then he would not have been doing this. Still feel sick. If you heard the whaling I have been doing.
Yes it still feels very raw. He has ruined my life, I used to be so independent. I am now in debt thanks to him, coupled with my stupidity. I have stopped crying for now, but know there is more to come. How could he afford this? What the hell was he thinking? The computer history showed he was looking at this filth everyday, even at 5.30 in the morning. He is sick.
I know where I went wrong, it was thinking he would change. Leopards never change their spots; very true saying.
I said to my friend 'he has ruined my life'
She said 'No, he made it hell, your life/future begins now'
And like me, you thought he would change.
They don't see the need to change, because they see no wrong in being a cruel horrible person.
You keep going OP, hour by hour xxxxx
Who is helping you op? Someone is hopefully helping you through.
Hope everything is okay. Well, as okay as it can be right now. People will help, I'm pretty sure, just reach out.
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text:
The free trade agreement most likely to deliver an early harvest for the Abbott government is the one with South Korea.
It will protect Australia's $650 million beef export trade against US competition and expand trade with Korea.
FTAs are also used to free up foreign investment but this is controversial. While both sides of politics will free most investments up to $1 billion, some must still be vetted. Farmers' demand for more vetting presents a problem for the Abbott government, but not as big as the one presented to the Gillard government by protectionist unions.
The problem was the Korean request for foreign investors to have a right to international arbitration if commitments to cut investment barriers are not honoured – the "investor-state" provision.
Australian business supported the request but the Labor government rejected it, blocking the negotiations. Then-trade minister
Bureaucratic stonewalling always bests ideology and in this case Emerson found potent allies – the Treasury and the Attorney-General's Department.
While Treasury pronounces that red tape must be cut, historically it did not mean its own, especially regulation of foreign investment. It should have. Research in 2008 by ITS Global found the economic cost to Australia of the processing of foreign investment approvals was $5.5 billion dollars per year forgone.
Treasury's reported objection was that foreign investors should not have a right to adjudication when Australian investors do not. It meant in Australia – apparently such a right for Australian business investing in Korea was unimportant.
Opposition from the Attorney-General's Department was even more abstruse. Stung by the temerity of cigarette companies in challenging
In all the remonstration, something important was overlooked. In South Korea, like Japan, big industry conglomerates (chaebols) exercise extraordinary influence on government to protect their interests. They probably assume business in Australia works the same way.
In most FTAs, dispute settlement is only invoked when the government of the offended interest agrees to submit the dispute to arbitration. It may elect not to do so, for example to avoid damaging diplomatic relations or because of internal political pressure. Under the investor-state procedure, the commercial party in question has the right to trigger the process. The government has no say and the question is depoliticised.
It would be sensible risk management to assume Korean business will use any opportunity to pressure Seoul to protect it. Australian business will more likely benefit from the investor-state clause in north Asia.
In the end it appeared Treasury accepted that conceding this minor control was desirable to protect access to a $650 million market on the cusp of expansion. It has long been an insider joke in Canberra that any area of regulation in the Treasury portfolio is untouchable. Treasury has either decided this is no longer the case or that association with union protectionism was too odious. Either way, sacrificing even this small piece of red tape sets a sterling example to the rest of the public service.
The Australian Financial Review


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text: For the first time in World War I, cameras were used widely to photograph troops and fortifications. Intelligence officers studied the photos to gain information about the enemy's weapons and armor, and to generate topographical maps. Pigeons outfitted with tiny cameras were released over military sites. As the birds flew, the cameras continuously clicked away, snapping pictures to be developed and interpreted when the pigeons reached their destination.Back to Full Collection


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text:
July 25, 2012
Christy Setzer, New Heights Communications
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 202-724-6380
Contact: Mary Boyle, Common Cause
E-mail: [email protected]
Phone: 202-736-5770
Voting machine preparation "good," but room for improvement before Nov. 6
WASHINGTON – An effective combination of paper ballots and other sound voter protection measures vaulted Vermont near the top of a ranking of states based upon its preparedness to successfully manage any voting machine failures on Election Day, a new report finds.
The report, "Counting Votes 2012: A State by State Look at Voting Technology Preparedness," was released Wednesday by three non-partisan organizations focused on voting – the Verified Voting Foundation, the Rutgers Law School Constitutional Litigation Clinic, and Common Cause. While Vermont earned a high rating, the report nevertheless urges election officials in every state to make changes in the weeks leading up to the Nov. 6 election.
"We applaud Vermont's efforts to prepare for the upcoming election," said Pamela Smith, president of Verified Voting. "Ensuring fair, accurate elections is a national effort, and well prepared states like Vermont are setting an example. Everyone from election officials to citizens should be involved to make sure this process at the very heart of our democracy is healthy."
Vermont scored high marks in part because it uses paper ballots and has instituted best practices concerning the return of ballots from military and overseas voters. These are the types of measures that all states should implement to improve the accuracy of our elections.
Many states have neglected to address or prepare for voting machine malfunction, which happens in every election. In 2008, for example, more than 1,800 problems with voting machines were reported nationally.
"If history is any indication, machines this November will fail, and votes will be lost," said Susannah Goodman of Common Cause. "Backup systems like paper ballots, audits and good ballot reconciliation practices need to be put in place to be sure results are accurately tallied.
Vermont did well in nearly all the categories; their only "needs improvement" rating came about in part because their post-election vote tally audit is voluntary, not required. This fundamental safeguard is needed after every election."
Vermont received an overall rating of "Good" based on its performance in five areas:
• Does the state require paper ballots or records of every vote cast? (When computer failures or human errors cause machine miscounts, election officials can use the original ballots to determine correct totals. Additionally, paper ballots can be used to audit machine counts.)
• Does the state have adequate contingency plans at each polling place in the event of machine failure?
• Does the state protect military and overseas voters and their ballots from alteration, manipulation and privacy violations by ensuring that marked ballots are not cast online?
• Has the state instituted a post-election audit to determine whether the electronically reported results are correct?
• Does the state use robust ballot reconciliation and tabulation practices to help ensure that no ballots are lost or added as votes are tallied and aggregated from the local to state level?
In addition to Vermont, three other states were ranked near the top of the list – Minnesota, Wisconsin and New Hampshire – while six states were ranked near the bottom – Colorado, Delaware, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and South Carolina.
Click here to view the whole report.
Click here to view the executive summary.
Click here to view a chart of all the states' overall assessments.


text:
Web 2.0
The web was never a liberalising force. The clearest message wins and the far right has itJason WilsonTechnology cannot bend human values in one direction or another. The internet merely provides tools for humans to realise their values, for good or ill
Future of photo-sharing site remains unclear but its founders say the innovation at Flickr died as soon as it was acquired in 2005
Another nail is hammered into Flash's coffin, meaning 2016 will be the last year of abundant display-marketing based on the maligned plugin
UK public broadcaster apologises as its internet services are taken down in what may have been a DDoS attack affecting its website, apps and streaming services
How we used service workers to build a custom offline page for theguardian.com.
Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the world wide web, discusses his early career at CERN and how the web evolved from its initial concept
A test called 'No Captcha' removes infuriating 'guess the word' forms for a simple checkbox to determine if you're human or not
A beginner's guide to the internet … or what Günther Oettinger needs to knowHannah Jane ParkinsonHannah Jane Parkinson: If the difference between web and internet leaves you scratching your head, and you think a Tumblr is another word for beaker, read on …
Privacy is a hot-button issue in the tech world. How will it fare in the age of pervasive computing – a world of billions of connected devices, systems, and services exchanging personal data? By Jat Singh and Julia Powles
Both the Yes and No campaigns in gearing up for the Scottish referrendum have opted for a new .scot dedicated Scottish web domain. By Samuel Gibbs
Nominet says that if you receive any compensation from your site, you're classed as a business and must have your home address made public. By Adrian Short
British physicist wins award for breakthrough in magnetic disk drive storage capacity, heralding era of cloud computing
The team behind the Guardian's digital content management system talk about how and why they built and open sourced Scribe.
John Naughton: It sprang from the brain of one man, Tim Berners-Lee, and is the fastest-growing communication medium of all time. We examine how the web has transformed our lives for good and ill
New Pew study shows US an increasingly digital society, but Americans view social media and the internet very differently
Search giant unveils free web app engine with cheeky moniker. By Samuel Gibbs
Emily White moved from to Instagram from Facebook to refocus the business on making money, distilling what Instagram can offer big brands. She talks to Jemima Kiss
Harry Halpin: A meeting next Monday of the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) will consider whether digital rights management should be part of the HTML5 web standard. But what's your opinion?
Dan Gillmor: Cyber-security is a real problem, but Congress' latest Cispa bill tries to solve it by attacking the freedom of the internet
New mobile users from poor countries will end up thinking that 'web' and 'internet' are just other words for Facebook, says John Naughton
Google's decision to do away with Google Reader has ramifications for anybody building a business on the back of Web 2.0, writes John Naughton
Jaron Lanier is one of the most respected voices in tech. Recently he has been warning of the dangers inherent in the internet's design. John Naughton met him
Dan Gillmore: Google's Chromebook Pixel is the latest device pushing cloud data storage, but I'm not convinced it's safe enough
Christian Aid's 'Big River Rising' documentary has been shortlisted for a digital media award. Emma Wigley shares her five top tips to get a similar project off the ground
A year ago, it was 'the fastest-growing company in the world'. Last week, the deals website's founder barely survived a bid to throw him off the board, writes Dominic Rushe
Site aims to be a central resource for information about all sorts of topics related to HTML5. By Charles Arthur
Social media company plans to introduce per-hour and user limits on apps, as part of API changes. By Charles Arthur
'We used to put function first, but now we put experience first,' says chief executive Phil Libin. By Stuart Dredge
Andrew Keen talks about his new book, Digital Vertigo; plus news about the Microsoft tablet, problems at Nokia, and Google's transparency report
Harry Potter welcomes all-comers to long-delayed interactive wizarding site with millions expected to fly in after official launch
Here's a list of links related to tonight's Tech Weekly Tech City Talk: intellectual property, copyright and ownership