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Tuesday, February 26, 2008
Novel Word Count
Within reason. If your (adult) novel is less than 40,000 words you're in novella land (where publishers worry about how a bookstore is going to stock your book when it will have such a skinny spine). Children's novels are generally shorter, but shouldn't be TOO short. If your novel is going to be over 150,000 words and your name is not David Foster Wallace, Leo Tolstoy, or Vikram (Chandra or Seth), there had better be a darn good reason for it.
Well, in the last couple of weeks people have been just blowing me away with their word counts. They're so high I have a physical reaction, similar to what would happen if someone took a query beginning with a rhetorical question, attached it to a sledgehammer, and hit me across the head with it. We're talking LONG. Just in the past week alone: 291,000 words, 223,470, 314,000 (first in a trilogy), 250,000, 213,000, and more!
PEOPLE. Not only do some agents automatically reject if your novel is too long (for the record I'm not one of them), you really have to ask yourself if you wrote that long of a novel because it was necessary and true to the story and you're able to keep the reader engaged over that huge length or because you need to take your laptop into the shop to fix the Backspace button.
Due in part to physical constrains (i.e. shelf space) and the resulting preference of national chains, some people in publishing feel there is a trend toward shorter books going on at the moment. While I don't advocate following trends too closely (all it would take is a couple of blockbuster doorstoppers to start a new trend), especially for a first novel you probably want to try to avoid giving people one easy reason to pass on your work.
Again, if it works it works, but the odds of it working when your debut novel is over 150,000 words drops dramatically.
114 comments:
- Merry Monteleone said...
Okay, I'm going to ask a stupid question that I should know the answer to, only because I keep finding various answers - what is the right word count / page count length for middle grade? I've seen people say as low as 17,000 words which seems like early chapter books to me...
Thanks Nathan, in advance, for your insight and advice.
- February 26, 2008 at 1:12 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
Length of books for young readers vary greatly, but tend to be shorter than adult books. As a professed non-word-count-stickler, that's about as specific as I'd get.
- February 26, 2008 at 1:15 PM
- JaxPop said...
Merry beat me to it - but I'll ask anyway - is there a preferred word count for YA. My MS is between 60,000 & 65,000 words. Thanks
- February 26, 2008 at 1:15 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
Sorry, this isn't the place for word count questions. I don't believe in ideal lengths -- the ideal length is however long you need to tell a really great story. Within reason, that's all that matters.
- February 26, 2008 at 1:17 PM
- lauramanivong said...
17K is not in the "normal" range for MG novels, but there are exceptions to everything, always. SARAH PLAIN AND TALL is very short, I venture to say even under 10K. But in general, MGs comfortably run from 25K to 45K with leeway on both both ends. Then there are novels written in verse that look rather thick, but it's all in the white space.
- February 26, 2008 at 1:21 PM
- lauramanivong said...
Oops. Sorry Nathan, to engage in specifics. I didn't see your answer before I posted.
- February 26, 2008 at 1:26 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
No no, that's fine -- if people want to chime in with genre-specific guidelines that's great, I'm sure people will find them helpful. I just wanted to keep my own stance consistent.
- February 26, 2008 at 1:27 PM
- Merry Monteleone said...
Thanks for answering, Nathan... and for the record, I like your stance - at least we know you won't see our word count and roll your eyes while hitting delete :-)
- February 26, 2008 at 1:36 PM
- lauramanivong said...
Here's why you shouldn't sweat it:
Sarah Plain & Tall = 8377 words
Criss Cross = 48,221 words
Both middle grade novels.
Both Newbery winners.
But if you insist, or need a place to procrastinate ;~), check word counts here...
- February 26, 2008 at 1:48 PM
- Dave F. said...
In every aspect of my writing, I had to learn to write less and not explain it all. I suspect that's what happening with these writers. They are explaining it all.
The hardest thing for me to do, is to cut things out. The hardest thing for any writer is to cut their own words.
- February 26, 2008 at 1:52 PM
- Katie Alender said...
In the otherwise miraculous book "On Writing", Stephen King gives two pieces of advice that seem to be on a lot of agents' no-no lists: (1) he suggests querying with a few chapters written, and (2) he suggests writing 2,000 words a day for three months, giving you a nice 180k word novel. Whenever I see someone mention a supersized novel, I wonder if that advice is behind it.
- February 26, 2008 at 2:23 PM
- Niteowl said...
But there are some writers who DO explain absolutely everything, and do quite well. Terry Goodkind comes to mind.
- February 26, 2008 at 2:28 PM
- benwah said...
Why is it that fantasy works tend to run so long? Not a criticism, just curious.
- February 26, 2008 at 2:36 PM
- Adaora A. said...
You're breaking out in hives and getting cold chills. Or are you drowning in the 'cultured man's' bourbon?
What if the word count meant the amount of money you were going to get from them for making you sit through it?
Just kidding!
- February 26, 2008 at 2:52 PM
- Conduit said...
Nathan, I asked this question over at the Moonrat blog post you linked too, but I'd be grateful for your take on it too, as opinions seem to vary widely...
How do you calculate word count? I've gotten into the habit of just using MS Word's count and rounding to the nearest thousand (or hundred for shorts). I've read others stating that you should always make it 250 times your page count (assuming you're using a standard manuscript layout), and still others that say you should count the words in ten lines of dense text and average it over the page, then the whole book.
Or should I be worrying about something that actually matters instead?! :)
- February 26, 2008 at 2:54 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
Using the Word word-count tool is fine. Depending on how you formatted your manuscript the 250 words a page rule may or may not apply.
- February 26, 2008 at 3:03 PM
- Merry Monteleone said...
Hi Katie,
I loved that book, but I didn't think he meant to keep all 2,000 words... I think you wind up editing down or out a lot of your first draft writing.
I thought that was a great question - you get so many variations, down to different wordcounts per page depending on the font you use. I've been going with 250 per page in New Times Roman, but I could be wrong.
I spent two months obsessed over how to use my maiden name rather than my married name without confusing the agents/editors... so I'd say this question is more on par with something to obsess over anyway.
- February 26, 2008 at 3:04 PM
- Aimless Writer said...
Guilty here! But I didn't send it anywhere simply because I thought it was too long for a first novel. So there it sits on my shelf, waiting for a home.
I'm thinking of pitching it as a screen play. . . eh.
Too long!
Too short!
What's your perfect size, Nathan?
- February 26, 2008 at 3:04 PM
- Wanda B. Ontheshelves said...
Trend Toward Shorter Books
Hmm, does this mean poetry is going to make a comeback? Poetry seems perfectly suited to MDL (Mobile Device Lit).
My idea of a MDL novel, is one where there's all this cool stuff in the novel that people can PURCHASE right through their mobile device! They can even send it as a gift to someone across the country (or globe), with a little note that says: "Reading this cool novel, and this was in it! Check it out!"
Kind of like Harry & David at Christmas, but it's fun items out of novels. Like a fantasy novel that describes some gorgeous tarot deck...and then you can order it right with your Kindle! Kool!
- February 26, 2008 at 3:16 PM
- Tiffany Kenzie said...
I believe the 250 word count is for using Courier/New Courier@25 lines per page... TNR has about 300-350/page so it doesn't work for that rule. Publishers specify (okay so I only know the romance world of pub's) if you have to have one font over another and word count or so many pages with the 250WC rule... hmmm, I think I just confused myself in that... lol!
Passionate Pen's got some good info on that... http://www.passionatepen.com/formatarticle.htm
- February 26, 2008 at 3:19 PM
314,000 words that are merely the first part of a trilogy?
Give unto the author a copy of Strunk & White.
Give unto him a chainsaw and set before him his manuscript.
Let rule thirteen be written in fire across his spleen, for surely there is no other path to enlightenment.
I'd request a full by snail mail just to see the size of the mailman who delivers it.
My first novel was about 140,000 words. I loved each and every one of them. Unfortunately, taken all together, they constituted an unreadable mess. It lurks now in the dark sectors of my hard drive, frightening personal correspondence and looming over my tax records. I could easily have told the story in about 50k words, had there been a story in there to begin with.
Stephen King said he'd received a note from an editor which said, "2nd draft = 1st draft - 10%" I think the percentage is a little conservative.
Re: Word count methods
I wonder if the accuracy of the count matters? If you count 100,000 words, but your manuscript is actually 100,200, will the agent or editor or publisher request a prune or reject your work? How about 101,000? Miss Snark has some posts on the accuracy of various methods.
I subscribe to Newhart's theory of accounting: "As long as it's within a couple of bucks, that's good enough. . ."
- February 26, 2008 at 3:31 PM
- Just_Me said...
The first novel I wrote I finished in high school and I went by page count, I wanted a full 500 page novel. When I learned better and went to do a word count it was a whooping 185,000. Needless to say, that's in the process of been rewritten and edited.
It was a good learning experience and lots of fun, but I won't even let my critique group read it until it's been cleaned up and chopped down a bit. I aim for between 75,000 and 100,000 for sci-fi and fantasy. If I've done my math right that's between 300 and 400 pages which is a comfortable length for a novel.
Benwah- My guess is that fantasy worlds take more description to build. Very few sci-fi authors get into the rich description of Tolkein-esque fantasy, especially since the average view of the future involves lots of ugly metal buildings, clean lines, and no knick-knacks. But that's just my take on it, there may be a better reason.
- February 26, 2008 at 3:33 PM
- Mark Terry said...
Nathan seems unwilling to be drawn (today) into the quagmire of calculating word count. I got myself worked up about this for no particular reason recently, when I had already published 3 novels without being worried about it.
If you use Times New Roman, which I happen to think is a pretty font, with 1-inch margins, you'll get somewhere in the range of 300 to 350 words per page.
If you use Courier or Courier New, you get about 250 words per page.
If you use Microsoft Word's word function, you'll get something completely different--and to make matters worse and/or weirder, if you do it in TNR, then reformat the manuscript in Courier and take the Microsoft Word's wordcount function for each of them, they will be different. Not hugely different, but a little different.
My latest novel manuscript is in Courier and runs 363 manuscript pages long, which would make it, by the 250 words per page formula, slightly over 90,000 words, which is just fine for a mystery novel. If you use the Word wordcount function, it's something like 67,000 words.
I asked my agent about it and she thought I was insane. It was the right length, she said, and left it at that.
Really, you can drive yourself crazy with that. Just don't think you can write novels as long as Stephen King does and sell them... unless you're Stephen King. And remember, "Carrie" wasn't a particularly long novel. (And I recently tried to read the 7th book of the Dark Tower and got totally bogged down; if I had been editing it, it would have been a hell of a lot shorter).
- February 26, 2008 at 3:56 PM
- Merry Monteleone said...
Oy, seems I'm longer than I thought I was... ah well, I was cutting things anyway.
Thanks for the expertise.
- February 26, 2008 at 4:21 PM
- C.J. said...
nathan -
any advice for finding a home for a novella... does it help if i'll throw in antoine walker?
- February 26, 2008 at 4:32 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
A novella is going to cost you AT LEAST Al Jefferson.
Strategies for placing novellas vary, especially depending on genre. It can be helpful to place them in anthologies, or to round them out with short stories to create a properly-sized collection. But it all depends on the actual work, and I have to say it's difficult (though not impossible) to debut with a novella. It's easier to manage when you're an established name.
- February 26, 2008 at 4:35 PM
- Dr. Dume said...
314,000 words? I don't think I know that many words. Even if I include all the swear words and the words for 'Beer' and 'Chips' in half a dozen languages.
I have one MS languishing here at 70,000 words, and one at 90,000 words but not all in the right places yet.
I queried an agent with the 70,000 word one and was told I needed to add 10,000 words. Well, I tried, but it was all just added babble so I took them out again. It can 'rest' a while longer. A little subplot will come to me in time.
I use Word's count, and say so in the query so if anyone ever does request a full, they'll know what to expect.
I wonder, though, if starting the query "Read this book what I wrote. It has many words." might be stifling my chances?
- February 26, 2008 at 4:54 PM
- no-bull-steve said...
I, like Khrushchev at the United Nations, vehemently object to Nathan's rigid and misogynic rules regarding book lengths!
Okay, okay, I don't. I just miss the contention of the simile debate….
- February 26, 2008 at 5:03 PM
- Jessica said...
As someone who hates revising, I'm just thinking of how daunting the task of revising a 300,000 word novel would be!!
- February 26, 2008 at 5:12 PM
- sex scenes at starbucks said...
Stephen King is also a huge advocate of revising down--at least ten percent.
Most short stories in my slush could use a good trim. Nothing like writing short stories to help you learn how to write using only the words you need.
- February 26, 2008 at 5:20 PM
Well, if you're an established novelist, writing an established series, the 200k+ might work. (Libba Bray did this with THE SWEET FAR THING.)
But wow, people sending 200k tomes for first novel publishing ... They're especially courageous! Power to them... I guess. :)
- February 26, 2008 at 5:27 PM
- Laurel Amberdine said...
Dying of giggles here.
314,000 words! The first of a trilogy! That's admirable, in a way. I don't have the attention span to write something near that long.
Gosh, imagine the synopsis.
I read a lot of fantasy, and it tends toward lengthiness for many reasons: lots of characters (each with their own POV), huge scope, often covering a significant portion of the world, and epic events which may take decades to unfold. Also, since it's a non-Earth setting, with magic, showing all the cool bits takes some wordage.
- February 26, 2008 at 5:34 PM
- Mssr.Jay said...
It's pretty comforting to know you aren't one of the agents who immediately sends a query to the fiery depths of rejection hell based on word count alone. Though really, I couldn't blame you for auto-rejecting something that was over 300k. Good lord. I'm trying to figure out just how many books that is.
Out of sheer, morbid curiosity, is there anything in a query that WOULD make you reject it immediately? Apart from rhetorical questions, I mean. :)
- February 26, 2008 at 5:53 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
Mssr. Jay-
That's a good question, as even a rhetorical question opener isn't grounds for an immediate rejection. Aside from things I don't obviously represent, just about the only immediate deal-deal breaker is obvious signs of insanity. I wish I could say I don't often have people to reject on this basis, but...
- February 26, 2008 at 5:56 PM
- Dr. Dume said...
just about the only immediate deal-deal breaker is obvious signs of insanity.
Oh dear. Best move you down my list until the doctors find a cure, or get a friend to submit for me.
I have some reasonably sane friends left, I think.
Well, one.
- February 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM
Oops. According to the version I found on the web, Strunk's 13th rule is "Omit needless words." My 4th edition paper S&W gives rule 13 as "Make the paragraph the unit of composition." Er. . . I meant the "needless words" one. (Sheesh, who knew they'd renumber the rules with different editions? I wonder if the 23rd psalm started as the 5th psalm before revisions).
Giving outright rejections for obvious signs of insanity automatically takes you, Nathan, out of the running for O.J. Simpson's next book. I assume you are relieved.
- February 26, 2008 at 8:01 PM
- Linda said...
The esteemed Mr. King actually said cut every first draft by 20%, which is about right if your first draft is written sans editing. Which is how I tend to write. The first draft of the novel I'm now shopping clocked in at 183k; it is now 50k slimmer. But it wasn't until about revision 6 that I was able to take the hacksaw to my MS; indeed, those few weeks would've made a great episode of Nip and Tuck... lots of blood, fat, and tissue left on the operating floor. Now, it's much easier to 'kill my darlings'... Peace...
- February 26, 2008 at 8:07 PM
- Furious D said...
I guess what you're trying to say is that you're looking for a word count that you won't have to go to NASA to calculate to the last digit?
As for editing a long novel, I once wrote a very long novel, but now it's at about 100,000 words even. Which I think is a healthy range because it has a lot going on.
- February 26, 2008 at 9:26 PM
- AstonWest said...
Can you imagine having to be the editor that plows through 300,000+ words, if they accepted ones that large?
Do the old adages of at least 80K words still apply? Or are the "trends" toward smaller works driving that number down?
My latest novel (which I'm going back through again) rings in just under 60K and I've been told that just isn't enough...
- February 26, 2008 at 10:12 PM
- crapshooter said...
Nathan again is giving good advice that is echoed by other agents.
Having said that, Tom Clancy's first book, The Hunt For Red October, was rejected many dozens of times because of its length, some 500,000 words. 'Ol Tom trimmed it some, not much, but some, and the rest is history. Most of his books run a half million words - or more. Thank goodness, because they're some of my all time favorites.
I prefer long books from my favorite writers. When looking for new authors to read, I look for the thick books with small print. If I find a winner, I want it to last as long as possible.
- February 26, 2008 at 10:23 PM
- crapshooter said...
- This comment has been removed by the author.
- February 26, 2008 at 10:27 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
You bring up a great point, and this is why I wouldn't reject a project on word length alone. Neal Stephenson is another author who writes really long books, and he's one of my absolute favorite authors. I would never want to miss out on someone like that. But when an author is asking an agent and editor and publishing house to invest in an extra-long book, the bar is that much higher. If you can jump that high go for it, but keep in mind that it's harder to do.
- February 26, 2008 at 10:30 PM
- pjd said...
just about the only immediate deal-deal breaker is obvious signs of insanity
Oh, sh*t. It all becomes clear now.
- February 26, 2008 at 11:35 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
haha, not you pjd.
- February 26, 2008 at 11:40 PM
Here's one for you Word gurus that's been buggin' me a long time:
When I have my ms .dov file open, the word count = 76K. But when I close the file and right-click the icon and select properties, it gives the word count as 89K. That's a significant difference, so which one do I go by? Split the differene?
- February 27, 2008 at 1:15 AM
Sorry that was suppoed to be .doc file, above.
- February 27, 2008 at 1:16 AM
- Kimber An said...
I'm glad to hear about a shift to shorter novels. Mine are always on the short end of the spectrum.
Thanks for the informative link too.
- February 27, 2008 at 7:57 AM
- joylocke2000 said...
I knew that too long could be the death knell of my book. But my concern is the brevetiy of length for my fantasy fiction novel. It's only 75,000 words. Is that too short. Where is a happy medium. I have heard a variety of opinions on that subject.
- February 27, 2008 at 8:17 AM
anonymous, I think the 89K figure you see is probably the file size, not the word count.
- February 27, 2008 at 9:52 AM
A good deal of the problem with novels that are too long has to do with not knowing how to copyedit.
If most writers just edited all the times they used the word "that" for no reason, the book would become tighter. Things like, "He closed the door behind him," can be edited to, "He closed the door." There are many other examples, but all these words add up, and they don't help the storyline.
The concept of word economy and knowing how to really edit takes practice, and it should never distract from the storyline. There's a good book to help writers get started, titled, THE FIRST FIVE PAGES, by Noah Lukeman. I wouldn't follow all of his advice about querying, but his advice about editing is priceless.
- February 27, 2008 at 10:26 AM
- Taylor K. said...
This is a good topic, and I must say that a long book is less of a deal breaker for me then long chapters. I hate reading books with overly long chapters. That's why it took me years to get through Chris Claremont's "Shadow War" trilogy. I read tons of other books over this time, and was able to do it easily because they all had chapters shorter then 50 pages. I like being able to stop reading more often then every few hours.
On the issue of the length of fantasy novels, I think a lot of it has to do with how much things have to be described. The writer has to make the reader understand a lot. The writer has to explain the aspects of the world, the qualities of the characters, and many other things. Having recently finished writing a fantasy novel I can tell you that it is a pretty daunting task.
Other fantasy novel difficulties have to with the the necessity of prologues (a necessary evil in my case), and trying not to tell too much. Any book set in a another world has to deal with this. The 5th Harry Potter book, for instance, would have been no fun if the reader knew what the Order of the Phoenix was from day one. Same goes for all the other Harry Potter books. I could go on, but I feel I've rambled enough. Hope this explanation helps whoever asked the question.
- February 27, 2008 at 11:12 AM
- Chris said...
Alas, no more books written in the tradition of Dickens, 1,000 pages plus. But as you say, for the time and the market, it worked.
- February 27, 2008 at 11:13 AM
- mlh said...
I've also heard about the word count rule of 250/Courier and 300-350/Times New Roman. I don't pay attention to it anymore. All I'm worried about is how many pages instead of how many words. If my project ever approaches the 500-page range, then I better come up with a darn good reason for it. If I don't, then it is time for some serious editing.
Nathan, please distinguish between insanity and humorous joking around. Because after that comment, I feel there is no hope for me now.
My agent query list will soon be shrinking.
- February 27, 2008 at 11:16 AM
- Heidi the Hick said...
I'd like to second that. I need to know what constitutes obvious insanity, the kind that demands a rejection! Like, you don't mean fun-crazy, right? You're talking about obsessive demanding individuals that tell you they know where you live and where you hide the key, right? Like, scary-crazy???? Like, represent my book or the dog gets it-crazy? The kind of crazy that you simply could not work with?
My novel is 600,000 words worth of genius-crazy?
(I hope you don't mean obviously crazy as in, loveably neurotic...)
- February 27, 2008 at 11:26 AM
- jason evans said...
Picking up on Mary Terry's comment, I really wish the industry would take a position on calculating word counts, because it's not insane at all. The 250words/page method can varying hugely from the computer-generated count. By tens of thousands of words.
I'm a strong proponent of the 250words/page rule (with courier font, double spaced, 1 inch margins). The reason is that actual word count is completely irrelevant. What we are counting are pages that will go into a book. More pages=more $$$ to print. For example, take two books with 100,000 computer-generated word counts. One is very densely written at 350 pages. The other has a lot of white space, and fills 450 pages. The second will be much more expensive to print. The 250 words/page method accurately reflects the difference. The computer method does not.
In any event, it's confusing when a publisher is targeting a minimum word count of say 75,000 words, and one counting method yields 80,000 and the other yield 62,000. Is the book too short? Do we just pick the word count that best suits our purposes?
The methods are not interchangeable. However, for some reason, there is not much patience out there to deal with the issue.
- February 27, 2008 at 11:36 AM
nathan, i've suspected this was your feeling about length, and i've suspected that it's the feeling most agents have about it - "if your name isn't david foster wallace, forget it".
i brought this up to you before, in public, and you claimed that if the writing was great, agents will not care about the length:
here on the blog and
also the conversation that begins here.
i still think you're a charitable guy, so i'm sure not criticizing you personally, but agents in general all say that they'd love to reprsent a book like "the corrections" but i believe that none of them actually want to do the work of reading and discovering such a book. you could query the first three pages of that book and you tell the agent that it's 250,000 words long and all of them would reject it. why?
and if the trend now is for short books, why not be ahead of the trend with a huge old-fashioned totally different kind of book?
- February 27, 2008 at 12:59 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
Yeah, I feel like I've been pretty consistent on this one -- the bar is a little higher on long books, but I would never in a million years want to miss out on a book like CRYPTONOMICON or THE CORRECTIONS just because it's long. Some agents might, but since I don't (regrettably) represent Neal Stephenson and Jonathan Franzen, clearly there are agents out there who, like me, are willing to rep long books.
And you're also right that sometimes it pays to examine current trends and then put a stick in the eye of those trends and write something completely different. I do think that physical trends (i.e. shelfspace) and cultural trends (i.e. competing media) favor shorter books, but who's to say that the next big thing won't be a 1,000 page doorstopper? I'm certainly not going to be the agent who passes on it just because it's long.
- February 27, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Neal Stephenson published several well-received books that were the "ordinary" length before Cryptonomicon.
Jonathan Franzen published at least one well-reviewed book that was the "ordinary" length before The Corrections.
The rules are different for successful published writers and first-timers.
The first Harry Potter book is about 80K words; the last is about 200K.
- February 27, 2008 at 1:21 PM
- Nathan Bransford said...
Very good point, although THE HISTORIAN was Elizabeth Kostova's first novel and it was extremely long. I think the basic point is that it's harder to get a long novel published, especially for a first novel, but it can be done and done well.
- February 27, 2008 at 1:24 PM
- benwah said...
I'll echo what Jason Evans said about the 250 words/page in Courier 12. It was the industry standard prior to the ease of changing fonts and formats with word processing, and it lets the publisher get a sense of how big (physically) the book's going to be. I also appreciate the easy math: 4 pages = 1000 words.
But in the end, a book's going to be as long as it needs to be to tell the story with an economy of wrods.
w/r/t the length of fantasy novels: I always thought it had something to do with the characters having names like "Eldregran, son of Zuckerkandl the Blacksmith the fabled Stone of Quantificatt" instead of "Bob."
- February 27, 2008 at 2:14 PM
- Julie Weathers said...
Why is it that fantasy works tend to run so long? Not a criticism, just curious.
For me, it takes me a while to tell my story and reveal my world in an interesting manner. Kind of like a slow strip tease as one writer said.
Fantasies take a bit longer to set the scenes since the reader is new to the world.
Having said that, my suspense novel hit at 406 pages, which is probably long. In my defense, it was set in a world not familiar to many people.
I'm glad agents like Nathan aren't completely locked into predetermined molds. Sometimes it just takes a bit longer to tell the story.
- February 28, 2008 at 12:09 AM
- StephB said...
Nathan, great posts about word counts. I've come to be very flexable with them. My first rough draft of my werewolf story was 175,000 and let's face it, I'm not Stephen King. Chopping it down to 125,000 was a challenge, but I did it. Love your blog. Rock on. Steph
- March 1, 2008 at 1:24 AM
- fas said...
I got out my copy of War and Peace, did some math, and came up with a word count of about 700,000. So, if Tolstoy signed his name to a query dated today, I suppose things would have turned out a bit differently for him. Well okay then, I'll just have to consider it some kind of concilation to be in such lofty company.
- March 9, 2008 at 12:29 PM
- John said...
I know I'm late to this party, but I saw fit to add. I got boofed by one agent because she said she would only consider first novels if they were 84,000 words or shorter. (I'm guessing 84K/280 words per page = 300 pages).
And now I hear they have to be at least 80,000? Crazy man, crazy.
Tight word counts make sense in newspapers and magazines, but who ever bought a book only if it was between 285 and 300 pages long?
- March 21, 2008 at 12:29 PM
- Steve said...
I truly love this blog... It fills me with warm fuzzies and cold tremors all at the same time. I recently finished a choose-your-own-adventure story geared for a young adult fantasy audience. With three main story arcs at about 70,000 words each, it means a large work in the end, 217,000. Yeah... I guess it needs a diet...
- May 11, 2008 at 9:01 PM
- Edward said...
Would you say 90,ooo words on a first novel is within reason? The genre is probably considered suspense/horror fiction. Stephen King-esque as far as the book's genre, not the writing.
Also, will it help or hurt that I'm 18 when I begin to look for representation?
- June 9, 2008 at 11:24 AM
- Andre said...
Do you have a preferred word count for first novels? One agent told me editors are currently looking for 83,000 words for first time novels. Do you share this view? Is 84-85,000 too long? I'm talking for historical fantasy (not epic).
- June 26, 2008 at 12:57 PM
I'm working on a novel that's targeted towards older teens and so far I'm at 30,000 words typed on Chapter 15. If I continue at that pace I'll be at roughly 50,000 words by the end. This makes me feel pretty good.
I tend to admire authors like Hemmingway and Cormac McCarthy who write more with less. I have participated in online text based roleplaying and watch people describe the details of the same characters' backstories in every post just to fill space. We dub it a "Case of the Dickens." I personally hate to read pages and pages of description, especially if it doesn't seem to enrich the story.
- September 13, 2008 at 12:41 AM
- Scott said...
I tend to write concisely, or so I'm told. I like to get my arms around an impression rather than throw everything I can on the wall so that some of it sticks in the reader's senses. I'm selling something, in a way, and I want to keep the line tight, but not too tight.
At the same time, I like sentences with tons of rhythm. The reader should slide down them, hitting all the appropriate bumps. So it's a balancing act to get my vision across without working everything into one sentence. But a great, meaty and slightly dense sentence is so important to me, and it's very much a part of my style.
I think my latest will come out a little over 60k and I'm afraid to beef it up because I feel it will weaken it. Here's hoping what Nathan says holds true: to thine own story – and style – be true.
- September 17, 2008 at 9:04 PM
- Amanda said...
Mr. Bransford - First, thank you for posting such a helpful and informative blog. I'm sure you are a busy man, and I truly appreciate the information.
My question is, once I have gone through the step of completing a first draft of a novel that is geared toward young adults and slightly older, what is the first step toward publication? Should I hire an agent? Get a copyright first? Just send it to the publishing companies?
Again, your info is greatly appreciated!
- January 14, 2009 at 7:46 PM
- I have a question that worries me because it may be the reason why I'm still not published!!! What do you feel is obvious signs of insanity? I have a feeling that's my problem. Not that I'm insane but some may feel that my story is probably kind of crazy.
(BTW I haven't sent you a query because I just found your agency but I'll give it try. Can't hurt can it?)
- January 19, 2009 at 8:45 PM
- Tagalog said...
Thanks for the FAQ on word counts. I'm starting to edit my first novel and it was about 145,000 words (suspense genre). I thought it was too long at first, but by my estimates it'll wind out around 300 to 350 book length pages and so I'm completely unconcerned now. Cheers!
- February 27, 2009 at 4:49 PM
- Fatboydim said...
Thank you so much for this blog. I am writing my first novels at this moment in time. One is being Co-Written with a published author, the other is my baby. I've been writing for TV and film for the last 20 years - So moving on to writing novels has been a fascinating process. I have learned so much already from reading your blog.
I now understand why my own agent [UK] has taken so long to read my first three chapters and proposal document. I need to finish the MS.
Once again thank you.
- March 1, 2009 at 12:51 PM
- Angel L. Landrey said...
Interesting comments. My first novel (yet to be published) was 173K words in first draft. Had several folks read it and make comments and by the time I got through draft 5 it is now 223K words.
Seems everyone I talk to wants big long books. They say they want shorter, less descriptive which is my preference (everyone can picture a leaf falling and we don't need to describe it) but when they critique they always seem to think something is left out.
- April 21, 2009 at 9:16 AM
- Patrick said...
Word counts are such a tricky thing and I hate that as a writer you really do need to worry about them. I spent much time googling word counts which actually led me to Mr. Bransford's blog and it seems like everyone has a different answer to what is considered the appropriate word count for an unpublished author.
But the clear consensus is you shouldn't go over 100,000 words and you should come in at under 70,000 words. If you manage to get your manuscript in that sweet spot you are less likely to meet rejection do to first impressions and the first impression of any manuscript is its word count. It's the same if you were to go into a book store and pick up a 300 page novel and a 1000 page novel, it's the very first thing you notice.
I finished my manuscript coming in at just 65,000 words which I know can be frowned upon as too short. It an effort to increase my word count to something more in the normal acceptance range I actually ended up writing one of my favorite chapters of the entire book.
I was worried about padding for padding's sake just to meet some arbitrary idea of how long a novel should be. But in an effort to increase my word count I did find out my novel was too short and that there was something more too add.
You also have to understand it from an agent's perspective if the novel is 300,000 words that means a lot of work to try and sell the novel. They could read three or four manuscripts in the time it takes them to read yours and then they still have to convince publishers the novel is worthy of such a huge word count.
You are going to likely have to knock their socks off with your query letter just to get them to consider spending four times the time and effort they would have spent on a normal client with a normal length manuscript.
And I am sure editing a manuscript of that size is a nightmare.
The same goes for manuscripts that fall in the category of being too short. They have to spend more time convincing publishers that your work is worthy despite its lack of depth and word count.
But in the end its all up to us as writers to determine if our manuscripts are too long or too short. Is there too much story or not enough and what can we do about it. I refuse to add chapters and story just to increase word count and if I were to write a 200,000 word manuscript I would hate to cut anything that I felt was essential to the story.
Word counts are a nightmare. They cause undo stress and until we are as big as Stephen King or JK Rowling or any author who is popular enough that they can sell massive tomes or short and concise manuscripts and be worry free about their lengths it is a nightmare we have to live and deal with.
I am glad Mr. Bransford doesn't worry about word counts so much but he is likely in the minority in that aspect.
- April 26, 2009 at 5:25 PM
- Dehenna said...
I'm writing what I hope to be a teen fiction, and am currently on 15885, which I know is way too low, but I still have a lot of her story to tell!
Would somewhere around that 100,000 mark be reasonable for the final word count?
Thanks a bunch!
- May 11, 2009 at 5:16 AM
- Lela said...
"or because you need to take your laptop into the shop to fix the Backspace button"
Okay - that just cracked me up out loud! And I certainly needed it as I'm deep into writing a query letter.
Thanks for all the generous advice here.
- May 18, 2009 at 4:21 PM
- MLeaves2 said...
I know I'm very later replying to this post, but I wanted some guidance on word count and this is the most useful and entertaining thing I've found so far!
Underneath it all, I know that a novel should be whatever length it needs to be to tell a compelling story in an interesting voice. Right now, my murder mystery is shaping up to be about 60-70,000 words, which is about the length of an Agatha Christie novel. I can only hope it's as good as one...
- July 5, 2009 at 11:38 PM
Hi, Nathan, I have a quick question:
What is the standard length for a first-time thriller or action/adventure novel?
- September 2, 2009 at 9:00 AM
- Ivory said...
I tried re-writing my first novel because it was "too-long". I tried elliminating characters and events and made a terrible mess. I made a second attempt and again created a mess.
I put it away and wrote another novel which was not so big.
My wife loved the first one and insisted I go back to it.
I went back, decided to keep all the characters and events in place, but tried trimming it a bit and it grew about 400 words.
So I find Nathans site, he says he doesn't worry too much about size (whew that is a relief) as long as it's not over 150,000 words. Yikes! I'm at arond 164,000 words.
So, who has the list of agents that WON'T automatically reject a manuscript on size?
Or (drum roll please)...
Should I send out the first 120,000 words, hope to get them hooked and then offer them the ending?
Fortunately, my second book won't take long to finsh revisions, I guess I'll just keep sending querries on the first. As long as I keep to e-mail, there's no cost.
- September 10, 2009 at 4:16 PM
I'm writing the first of 7 books in a series of sc-fi/fantasy novels for middle grade (they don't fit into either genre completely so I'm going to have fun trying to explain them to the agent) and I'm aiming for a nice round 100k to begin with. Once I'm happy enough that it's good content, I'll look at anything else that's needs trimming to smarten it up. At that stage it's hack and slash time and I have to br brutal! I always end up cutting bits and pieces out during editing, so I'll probabaly end up with something in the high 80-90k range for the finished product. Not sure if it helps anyone else, but that process seems to work for me.
- February 10, 2010 at 1:03 PM
- Edward Owen said...
Wow! Talk about hitting a nerve. I am currently on the last chapter of a sci-fi/horror novel that is at 133K words. I do make the mistake of editing as I go (can't help myself), so there has been some trimming. I am a huge fan of say more with less (this post notwithstanding), but I will have to decide if some sections are really necessary to the story or do I just like killing people? I would be done if I stopped surfing the net.......
- February 27, 2010 at 11:37 PM
I am about two weeks from finished with the historical fiction novel of King Tutankhamun and his wife. My word count is 188,000 aprox, but I deeply enjoy each and every one of those words. I have not found my agent yet. Do you have any suggestions for how to represent myself and find an agent who dive in to my work and help me publish it?
- March 24, 2010 at 9:13 PM
sorry for the typo... who WILL dive in.. multitasking and confused at this word of publishing!
- March 24, 2010 at 9:16 PM
- Josephe said...
Love this blog! it makes me laugh and feel sick all at the same time. And here's why. I have just finished a fiction MS that has gotten some pretty nice thumbs up responses from some independent readers...but, and it's a big but- the mother clocks in at about an un-edited 460k word count, and I could easily write more!! Soooo, what do you think? Two books in one? or the next great trend-setting tome? Everytime I sugest cutting something my wife says "NO! I love that part!" Now this thing IS going to be carved, either into two, or one big one, because I can not for the life of me see how the same level of story is going to happen if it gets cut to 100k words...somehow. thank you for your time!
- March 31, 2010 at 5:12 PM
- Vincent J.P. Morrone said...
I've written a novel where the word count is just over 150,000 words. I know!! Whoa is right. I went through and took out a few scenes which although I thought helped the story, cut it down to 142,000. I'm pretty confident that it's a good read. It's a paranormal/teen/romance thing that would appeal to the same readers that liked the "Twilight" books (no, no vampires in there at all) Should I even bother to send this out or what?
- April 14, 2010 at 10:23 PM
If the point has not already been hit home hard enough:
What matters most is CONTENT. Don't wory so much about word count. My first novel, an epic action/drama sprinkled with contemporary fantasy which will be the first in a series of four books, has just over 165,000 words, and yet each and every one of those words is, I feel, necessary to the telling of the story and the examination of its many, many characters.
Here's what I advise: only write a novel with over 150,000 words if your prose is exceptionally good. Nobody wants to read a long, drawn-out book with stale descriptions and whatnot. Make your pages come alive, and the reader will stay tuned for the long haul. I would.
- May 6, 2010 at 10:03 PM
my that's just fantastic, everything I never wanted to know about word count, all in one place, thank you all so very much. I agree with comments highlighting my conflicting amusement and trepidation. Just wanted to quote McCartney for fun: It's a thousand pages, give or take a few.
I'll be writing more in a week or two.
I could make it longer if you like the style.
I can change it 'round,
And I want to be a paperback writer
- May 25, 2010 at 9:43 PM
- Amanda Sablan said...
Ha, I said that, but I'm still paring my novel down. Still, content is most important.
- June 2, 2010 at 8:33 PM
- sympathypains said...
You mention that acceptance of a first novel is based on word count due to shelf space, yet many authors that have had success in the past have books with 250k word count, i.e. Rowling, and these are kids books. What I'm trying to say is that, what is the difference in word count acceptance based on first novels alone. Does it have more to do with the fact that you're a greater marketing risk?
- July 2, 2010 at 6:22 AM
In anticipation of a response, I wanted to ask this...
If confronted by a publisher that only accepts a certain number word count and one's novel is twice that, is it wise to create a sequel and submit only the first half as a first part in said sequel, indicating there is a second part?
Or, would it be better to send the entire draft regardless of the acceptance level?
Commercially it would be more profitable on the up side.
- July 4, 2010 at 12:33 PM
- Peter Cooke said...
Couldn't agree more with you about the focus on novel lengths. While I believe you should aim for a general target for you genre, I find the length of the book is dictated by how the book works out. They have a life of their own and sometimes finish in surprising ways and lengths.
- July 27, 2010 at 3:18 PM
- adamkapellasios said...
Let's say you revise your epic novel into 4 novels at about 80,000 words each. In your query, do your hook and synopsis relate the whole story or just book 1? You know the agent has to sell your #1 first. How do you weight the info on #s 2, 3, 4?
- August 1, 2010 at 10:22 AM
- Sarah said...
I got a completed novelette written, but I can't seem to figure out certain things about making a manuscript. Would a work be automatically rejected if I hired a ghost writer to due the manuscript?
- October 10, 2010 at 3:24 PM
- karenlee said...
I have the sweaty hands of a girl who's just learned that her YA novel at 84,000 words may not be for YA readers at all, but for "upper middle grade" --since there is no sex or violence and the protagonist is on the cusp of turning 13. But my word count may be much too long for the MG (at 84,000). I'm finding some relief with your belief, in telling a story, the word count shouldn't matter. The story is a mystery and has paranormal influences as well as some political references to unpopular beliefs. ?? Any advice. Thank you--Oh, i will be entering your first paragraph contest-ha!
- January 24, 2011 at 3:49 PM
The whole concept of word count is frustrating. I know it is important to the publisher and should be paid attention to by the writer, but I also know if one lets the word count control the book it will. I wrote an epic fantasy and without editing it is at 69,889 word count. I know after editing this may change and most likely will but I feel after many revisions that I love my book. I just hope the right agent will too even with a word count like this.
- March 21, 2011 at 3:14 AM
- Rhonda9080 said...
I have a monster novel I'm trying to reduce (300k - computer wc), but don't want to go less than 200K to 250K, due to nature of involved plot, large cast of characters, etc. Will my nonfiction background (news reporter, feature writer, etc.) be of any help? The book setting is my specialty area - middle east. It's an allegory of sorts incorporating old-style genre techniques of bodice-ripper style romance, Rambo-type action adventure, the old-style western, etc., but NOT genre fiction.
Do I have more leeway on the word count? If I had to classify it as this point, more of a thriller-geo-political-romance?
I find your blog very helpful!
- March 23, 2011 at 5:03 PM
This has to be one of the first blogs about word count that didn't leave me writhing on the floor in a seething morass of figurative pain. I wrote a book before reading anything about publishing, querying, and all those other -ing words that make me want to cry. At the time I simply wanted the story out of my head, where I could stop thinking about it and have a little internal peace and quiet (which I have since learned is a ridiculous expectation- I just replaced one story with three others that are similarly noisy). Then, in the process of researching query letters, I discovered the wonderful world of word counts. Foolish first time writer that I am, I thought you just wrote until the story was done. I figured, some stories are long, some are short, most are in-between, and if it's truly good length won't matter much. But I have been educated, so I checked the count on the MS tool. Gasp. 185,000. I am now in the process of sharpening my machete and lopping off a sizable chunk; still, while the MS will be the better for some pruning, I am not entirely sure I can get this puppy to the recommended 110,000 or less. Painful. Very painful. But probably necessary. That said, it is nice to hear that anything over 100,000 words is not the automatic kiss of death, either.
- April 2, 2011 at 2:44 AM
- Rhonda9080 said...
Yeah - I'm down 36k now, and falling. Revisions are hellish. Tightening the prose - always a good thing. However, I'm not much of a "Mcbook" writer or reader. Even in news articles, My specialty is the "feature" length. I suppose one needs a few Sistine Chapels in the world, along with Horneman's miniatures. Can there not be merit in both?
- April 7, 2011 at 11:33 PM
One hopes there is a middle ground, though an agent probably looks at word coumt before proceeding to the query. I have a theory that the big time agents have assistants who are trained to reject based on word count before their boss has a chance to look at it the query. I am at 129,000 and cutting, but whatever happened to "show, don't tell"?
- July 16, 2011 at 6:29 PM
- Indie Tom said...
Found this useful, thanks. I'm currently working on an adult novel. On 58,000 words and should end up about 80-90, assuming I don't lose the plot.
Also really like the cover of your book and the title... :)
- November 8, 2011 at 3:26 AM
Ok, so you all are both feeding and relieving my sudden word-count paranoia. I now have a sudden urge to estimate the wordcount on all my favorite successful books as a sort of reference for mine.
I've just finished a total re-write on my second (written) Epic Fantasy novel. (I'm unpublished, but I got a LOT of practice on the first one.) My impression (honest & brutal as I can be on myself) is that everything I include in this version is necessary... but I just don't know for sure. It's 190,000 words, in 3 parts, 21 chapters--by the wordcount feature of Microsoft Works, although it unfortunately counts the page breaks as 3-9 words each.
I intend the book to be first in a trilogy/series, but now I realize it could be a trilogy by itself... if I padded it. I spent a year trimming it, so this seems counter-productive. Is just under 200,000 an awful lot in a situation like this? I'm about to start querying agents and I am TERRIFIED of messing up this crucial part of the process. It'd be a crying shame to lose out because of word-count biases; but then again, I could just be long-winded. I can't really know.
- January 3, 2012 at 2:18 PM
Get a current copy of Writer's Market. It will list the agency's requirements.
- January 27, 2012 at 3:08 AM
Hi my name is Ashleigh and I am 13 years old. I am going to be a racecar driver. I am very sports oriented and I am in the middle of two novels. One is about a snowboarder who is accused of cheating.
the plot is finished, but it needs to be lengthened because I want it to be a full length novel. The other is about a racecar driver who is nervous about being sponsored by a big company. I am trying to develop the plot. I was wondering if you had any suggestions.
- February 17, 2012 at 1:29 AM
Okay, it's Shadow again. Nix that earlier comment; I put it into 3 books, and now book 1 is 90,000 words. I believe I'm in better shape now. Thanks for the help!
- March 10, 2012 at 12:33 PM
I just wanted to say WOW to the one that is over 300k!!!!! I am writing (mostly for my own entertainment and that of a few friends and family) a short series of books that will probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 8-10 books and be about 750k words total!!! 300k for the first part of 3 books!!!!! I have written a lot, over the last 19 years but I have never had a single book go over 80k (of course the audience I write for is actually young reader/young adult so I am more then happy with that word count) but I mostly just write until the story is told, once its told I don't need to be adding needless filler!
- March 14, 2012 at 4:04 AM
- CrypticRose84 said...
I don't write so I'm not sure on the word count to page ratio, but I personally prefer a 600-800 page book. (Epic fantasy is my genre of choice.) We have entered the age of the e-book, so carrying around that massive hunk of literature is no longer an issue. Also, I figure if I'm going to pay up to $12.99 for a digital file of a book I want one that is going to last a couple weeks.
- April 22, 2012 at 3:54 AM
My first novel (YA steampunk) sits at 186k, and I am loathe to cut it. Looking around, I see that Eragon was 157k, Fellowship of the Ring was around 180k (it'd likely be a YA book if published today simply because of the lack of violence/sex) and 3/7 Harry Potter novels were *substancially* longer than what I've written.
Still, while I have only been rejected by a few people thus far, my hopes are flagging. I really, REALLY don't want to split the book in half (I feel like one of the great crimes of the HP series is that the first 2 books are formulaic nightmares where things are wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow far too quickly), but I also want to get published.
If someone can write, book length (withing reason), shouldn't be an issue. The trend towards shorter novels is shameful, and while I'm not going to argue people should attempt to stem the tide (what could they do?), I do think it's highly unfair that the standards are different for first time authors. Writing isn't a skill you can just pick up, same as you can't hop over the wall during a Yankees game and go play left field (a Mets game? Perhaps. But I digress). These abilities don't increase or decrease with time -- you've either 'got it' or you don't, and it's time that more agents wake up to that fact before automatically cutting people down at the knees.
- July 7, 2012 at 4:06 AM
- Erin Cook said...
I have a crazy question, if my story is novella length will it be hard to find a romance publisher for it?
- October 15, 2012 at 10:47 AM
- JustSarah said...
Is 46,000 words generally considered to short for a first novel? I'm trying to aim small, just to make sure I can complete the thing.
(I have a hard time rambling on with my muse to get a long story done.)
My first novellette is suppose to be around 11,500 words. Small enough to fit in a magazine.:3
- October 28, 2012 at 9:07 PM
I have written an adult novel with 41k words. One agent told me the bare minimum is 60k. I don't want my book to be unnecessarily long without any purpose. Can you give me any advice?
- September 7, 2013 at 8:22 AM
- Nathan Bransford said...
Well, by comparison The Great Gatsby is around 40,000 words, so it can be done. But some genres have stricter genre requirements than others.
- September 7, 2013 at 8:27 AM
Apologies for resurrecting a dead thread, but almost every book that has changed American literature has been under 80,000 words (and, no, these works didn't happen after the author was super-famous)
Hemingway: The Sun Also Rises 67,000 (first novel published in US)
Fitzgerald: The Great Gatsby 47,000 words (previous novels had been disappointing)
Salinger: Catcher in the Rye 71,000 (would launch his career)
Walker: The Color Purple 67,000
Remarque: All Quiet on the Western Front 62,000 (had difficulty finding a publisher for it)
Bradbury: Fahrenheit 451 46,000 (probably the most successful author on the list at the time the book in question was published)
Vonnegut: Slaughterhouse-Five 49,500
The list continues and includes names like Aldous Huxley, Mark Twain, Lack London, Virginia Woolf, Oscar Wilde, Nathaniel Hawthorne, ad nauseum.
I challenge someone to tell me these books are underwritten. The fact is, books today are overwritten and horribly bloated (yes, even David Foster Wallace).
This is evident even on Amazon, once you sift through the fanboy 5-stars and 4-stars. The main complaint that keeps coming up is "needed an editor", or "bogged down hopelessly in the middle", etc. etc.
This is also why no real evolution has occurred in American literature.
- August 31, 2014 at 6:45 AM
- Jaysonc said...
I'm nearing the completion of the third draft of my first novel and it's going to be 100,000+ words and that wasn't on purpose. Way back in the second draft I was happy with about 95k and didn't think it would be much higher than that. Well, I was wrong and I'm on fence about removing a lot but going in the final draft I'll have to consider it.
- January 21, 2015 at 10:12 PM


text:
I did read your posts first. That should be pretty obvious bearing in mind I quoted them.
As for the "no", that is not what your policy seems to indicate with the requirement of a dan grade.
I did read your posts first. That should be pretty obvious bearing in mind I quoted them.
As for the "no", that is not what your policy seems to indicate with the requirement of a dan grade.
http://www.ChrisReesAcademy.com - http://thetattooedchimp.blogspot.co.uk/
"Try masturbating during a thunderstorm. Seriously. It makes you feel like Thor."
Here Come Da Pain......
For those who dont know who john Higo is ill clear that up for you ....John runs leeds cage in Yorkshire along with his wife lisa.
John eats sleeps and breathes combat sports hes at the gym every single day teaching and help people of all ages grow as fighters and also as people !
john is an honest stand up guy, that along with WAKO will try and do good things for the sport I and the rest of us love....
No one has questioned the man, they've questioned the organisation. We're free to do so.
I still don't understand why people have to start being teachers without going through the process of being a student first. Seems these guys are teaching grapping already even though they've only just started training?
http://www.ChrisReesAcademy.com - http://thetattooedchimp.blogspot.co.uk/
who are any of us to dictate to another what can or cant be done ????
unless your randy couture or some other world champion then who gives a rats ass what any of us think ??
lets all just get on with some training
Last edited by jon; 22-01-2010 at 11:29 PM.
That's great, but the previous posts seem to indicate that guys with a dan grade in an art are being certified as MMA instructors. Is this correct?
What is the minimum level of grappling knowledge required for someone to become an MMA instructor under WAKO?
http://www.ChrisReesAcademy.com - http://thetattooedchimp.blogspot.co.uk/
or would you prefer to learn from anybody?
All we are doing is setting a standard within "WAKO" to meet insurance requirements.
Its not compulsory to be a wako member to fight or teach, if you are happy to go with another instructor, then fine, do that.
Be The Person You Choose to BE!
Who is Dan? Can't you just give direct answers to my questions?
http://www.ChrisReesAcademy.com - http://thetattooedchimp.blogspot.co.uk/
££££££££££££££££most of the people that are attending our courses are long serving kickboxing instructors and thai instructors who wish to transision to mma, or develop another side to their gyms existing syllabus.
man, when you're the nail, hang in there....until the day you become the hammer

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Printable View
Here is my general scheme based on water temp. I usually surf dawn patrol in RI.
Below 45 degrees- Hooded 5/4, 7mm boots, 5mm lobster claw gloves
45 - 60 degrees - 4/3. Low end of this range, go with hood and heavy boots and gloves. Middle of range, go with 3mm gloves and 3mm boots, no hood. High end of range, drop gloves and boots.
60 - 65 degrees - 3/2mm
65 - 68 degrees - 2mm spring suit
68+ trunks plus neoprene vest
Straight trunking it at 6:00am in New England during the summer is not really necessary and is more just a novelty. Air temp is rarely above 75 in the morning and water temp usually only hits 70 in late August. If you surf a lot during the day, I could see trunking it a lot.
I am most comfortable wearing 3/2 with 3mil booties. Light wear, warmth, lots of traction and best of all the crowds dwindle with more rubber needed.
You guys crack me up, been trunking it since late march. I know, we don't count down here in FL
I swipe wetsuits throughout the seasons to adjust for the temp (craigslist is my friend much to my wife's attitude on spending money on MORE surfing gear).
I am now wearing a long john suit and have been for about a month which seems to be great for the air and water temp in Va Beach (though everyone else is in full suits).
I drop the suit also about at 68 to 75 depending on air temp.... but my kids do not seem phased by the water temp and already running out and playing in the water... and turning blue. End of this month the temp should be there when we skip spring and go right into summer again....
Regardless of where I've lived on East Coast,
If air temp is warm enough, I'm trunking in 63 degress +. Don't mind my wetsuit, but feeling the water/added mobility = priceless.
But who cares what other people are wearing, just be comfortable. You're only out there for yourself.
as soon as its trunkable, i dont hesitate. i always trunk it in upper 60's
During my session this afternoon, I could SWEAR the water warmed up overnight. So I checked the buoy and sure enough... up about 5 degrees since this time yesterday! I know the buoy readings and the surf zone are not usually exactly the same, but it's a good indicator.


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27 July 2010
tidy garden and some wedding philosophizing
19 comments:
I think your new background is gorgeous and totaly suits your blog. I just dont think your photos stand out as well. Some of the images seem darker and as I am looking forward to your wedidng photos I hope they arent e/affected. Sorry I know you didnt ask for any feedback... Enjoy the wedding plans. Almost as special as the wedding I think.ReplyDelete
The garden looks amazing, so peaceful and cosy, especially with the lights, well done Nao. Def think you are wise to be relaxed about the flowers, part of the joy is the randomness, you never know quite what the florist will have and it is lovely to be able to go with whatever takes your fancy when you are at the market choosing rather than being disappointed by having your heart set on something they end up not having. All flowers are beautiful anyway!ReplyDelete
I always look forward to reading your blog, makes me smile ;) but I have to say I don't like the new background that much as your pictures are beautiful and inspiring and they get lost on it, love the new banner you doodled though, hope you don't mind me saying :)ReplyDelete
Your wedding is going to look fab!
I'm so glad to hear there are others on the same wav length about the wedding stuff!ReplyDelete
Sorry to anyone who's not liking the new layout much...I guess you can't please all the people all of the time! I will try and make the photos lighter and the writing bolder in future, maybe that will help a bit?
I've tried writing this comment 3 times now, i'm doing something wrong (i'm new to this blogging life, hohum). I love the new look. I think it sums up your blog perfectly, and that's what is important. As long as you love it! I like how 'earthy' it looks. Anyhoo, looking forward to seeing the wedding pics, hurrah for non wedding-obsessed women! xReplyDelete
your wedding will look heaps more personal and intimate with all your mismatched decorations. I'm with you on being totally scared of matchy matchy. I want to take your approach when its mine turn :)ReplyDelete
ha - I think one of my first blog posts was a rant against the matchy matchy wedding compulsion. It seems so restrictive to me and anyway, once your guests arrive they won't "fit" with the colour scheme anyway so what is the point?ReplyDelete
Love the new background particularly the banner heading. I know what the other commenter means about the photos against this background although it does suit your blog so. Could you do some sort of mount around the pictures?
Love love love the pics of your sweet garden – do you use a tilt shift lens or create the effect afterwards? It makes it look very magical.
Your garden looks so cozy and inviting! (Loving your new look blog too!)ReplyDelete
Love the garden and the new look blog... (and a gratuitous cat shot is always good with me!) I like the idea of a 'random' theme... that's something we've been backing and forthing with... trying to come up with an 'us' theme just to stop us buying things randomly when we see them ;)ReplyDelete


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By LOIS SCOTT
Special to the Citizen
All of us from Springhouse Quilters hope that you had a wonderful, safe and healthy Christmas, and we are hoping that you will also celebrate a safe and prosperous New Year.
For the month of December, Springhouse members took a break to be with family and friends to celebrate this wonderful Christmas season.
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Free Training for Small Businesses Offered in January
Free Training for Small Businesses Offered in January
Web-Enabled Instructor-Lead Training allows for easy attendance
CLARKSBURG, WEST VIRGINIA ─ The U.S. Small Business Administration is offering a series of free Web-Enabled Instructor-Led Training sessions in January to allow busy professionals the opportunity to receive training without leaving the office.
The seminars are being offered to eligible individuals or small businesses nationwide, as part of SBA's efforts to provide relevant training to the small business community. Instructors for the training are from Stover & Associates, Inc., a training firm located in Atlanta, GA.
Each seminar series will be offered on two consecutive weekday afternoons from 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. EST. Attendees are required to attend both 3-hour sessions to receive a certificate of completion. Register online today at http://sbaworkshops.stoverteam.com.
"The SBA encourages small businesses to take advantage of these training seminars," said Judy McCauley, director of SBA's West Virginia District Office. "Having the opportunity to participate in training without leaving the office is something we are very excited to offer."
Available online seminars include:
- Marketing and Capture Management
Part 1: January 22, 2013
Part 2: January 23, 2013
- E-Commerce and Internet Business Strategy
Part 1: January 24, 2013
Part 2: January 25, 2013
- Proposal Preparation
Part 1: January 28, 2013
Part 2: January 29, 2013
- Government Contract Negotiation
Part 1: January 30, 2013
Part 2: January 31, 2013
Small businesses who are eligible and interested in the topics above should attend these free seminars. To register go to: http://sbaworkshops.stoverteam.com. For more information contact Phyllis Embree or Chris Strudthoff at firstname.lastname@example.com or call 770-423-9888.


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- Internships /
- Fashion /
- Brand Representative
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Brand RepresentativeBookmark This
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We enjoy using Macs, 12-foot whiteboard walls, and iPhones at our mobile office. We utilize the ecosystem that technology has created over the past few years, which truly allows us to stay connected, and always in touch. You are free to use whatever you want to get the job done, just always keep in mind: be good or be gone.
Rep Program Description:
You must be confident, social and obsessed with fashion (just like us!), with a passion for creativity, clothes and discovering the latest trends. You must bring enthusiasm to the role, along with a desire to share your creative point of view, whether this be styling, blogging, Instagramming, tweeting or creating video content. You will have an incredible opportunity to showcase your abilities and create peer-to-peer content that will engage people all over your campus and beyond. In return, you will be a Rep for the Colabination brand, enabling twenty somethings to look, feel and be their best with engaging content and exclusive online shopping events and get paid for it!
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Have a strong knowledge of streetwear brands
Know popular designers in this fashion category
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Comfortable openly sharing opinions
***To be considered you must submit your information to Colabination.com/BecomeARep***


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Product Reference: 40418
Flip Case with folio stand for easy viewing
The HTC One M7 Flip Case with Folio stand gives you everything you need when on the move. The HTC One M7 is an impressive phone including its 4.7" HD screen, so its nice sometimes to enjoy these features. The HTC Flagship Flip Case allows you to do just that, open the case fold it back and you have the perfect stand to watch your favourite films, browse pictures or to keep an eye on it when you're sitting at your desk.
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The HTC One M7 Flip Case is made from tough polycarbonate to give strength and security to the cases body. The polycarbonate casing has been designed to give the perfect form fitted design so it fits snug to your device. However the strong exterior is accompanied by soft micro suede lining on the cover side of the case so the screen is cushioned once placed into the case.
Features openings for all ports and buttons
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Concepts in Wood Double - wide 8 - shelf Bookcase
Item # WX2-206544
Concepts in Wood Double - wide 8 - shelf Bookcase
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- Details & Specs
Concepts in Wood Double - wide 8 - shelf Bookcase offers HUGE space for books, albums, picture display and more!
Add a fantastic storage accent to your living room, den or office with this Double-wide Bookcase! Use the entire space for your literary collection, or vary by shelf with media, framed photos, trinkets and more; any way you fill the shelves is perfect!
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- Reviews
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McCormick, Altizer and Apps selected to 2011 SAC Preseason TeamJanuary 27, 2011
Men's Tennis team picked fourth in SAC Coaches' Poll
Rock Hill, S.C. - A trio of Tornados men's tennis seniors were selected to the 2011 Preseason All-SAC Conference team and the Tornados were selected to finish fourth in the SAC Coaches' Preseason Poll as announced by the conference office this afternoon.
Scott McCormick, a 2010 All-SAC first teamer was named to the Preseason First Team and he was joined on the list by fellow seniors Cole Altizer and Shane Apps.
This is Altizer's second preseason selection, having been a preseason Second Team selection in 2010, while this is Apps' first time to be honored.
Anderson University is the favorite to win the 2011 South Atlantic Conference men's tennis championship in a vote of the league's head coaches, the conference announced.
Anderson received five first place votes and 90 total points. The Trojans are playing in their first season in the South Atlantic Conference, after going 13-8 last season and making the NCAA tournament. The Trojans are paced by Stan Atema, a preseason All-Conference second team selection.
Wingate University, who finished the 2010 season in second place, is picked to finish second again. The Bulldogs, received two first place votes and 87 total points.
Wingate placed four players on the preseason All-Conference team. Matt Lichtenstein, Braeden Patchell, and Flavio Rathsam all were picked to the first team, while Drew Owen was on the second team.
Lincoln Memorial University is picked to finish third after receiving two first place votes and 81 total points. Philipp Hoffmann, the 2010 SAC Men's Tennis Freshman of the Year paces the Railsplitters making first team preseason All-Conference, while Tom Goosens was a second team pick. The Railsplitters are the defending conference and Food Lion SAC Tournament champions.
Brevard College received one first place vote and 56 total points to finish fourth in the preseason poll. The Tornados placed three on the preseason All-Conference team. Scott McCormick, a 2010 first team player, was picked to the preseason first team, while Cole Altizer and Shane Apps were selected to the second team.
Mars Hill College and Tusculum College tied for fifth place with 52 points each.
The Lions are led by second team preseason All-Conference selection Lucas Simm.
The Pioneers placed four on the preseason All-Conference team. Steven Lin and Luis Zamora were selected to the preseason All-Conference first team, while Drew Kiser and Oliver Smith were both placed on the second team.
Catawba College received 47 total points to finish seventh in the voting.
Carson-Newman College received 46 points for eighth in the preseason poll. Trent Slagle is a first team preseason All-Conference pick for the Eagles.
Lenoir-Rhyne University is predicted to finish ninth in the standings after receiving 21 total points.
Newberry rounds out the poll with 18 points. First-year coach Mark Gardiner has a roster of all freshmen.
The top six teams in the conference standings at the end of the season advance to the 2011 Food Lion SAC Tournament. The tournament will be at the Rock Hill Tennis Center in Rock Hill, S.C. Quarterfinals will be Wednesday, April 20, with the semifinals on Thursday, April 21. The championship match will be Friday, April 22.
Poll 1st Points
1. Anderson 5 90
2. Wingate 2 87
3. Lincoln Memorial 2 81
4. Brevard 1 56
5. Mars Hill 52
5. Tusculum 52
7. Catawba 47
8. Carson-Newman 46
9. Lenoir-Rhyne 21
10. Newberry 18
Scott McCormick, Brevard
Trent Slagle, Carson-Newman
Philipp Hoffmann, Lincoln Memorial
Steven Lin, Tusculum
Luis Zamora, Tusculum
Matt Lichtenstein, Wingate
Braeden Patchell, Wingate
Flavio Rathsam, Wingate
Stan Atema, Anderson
Cole Altizer, Brevard
Shane Apps, Brevard
Tom Goosens, Lincoln Memorial
Lucas Simm, Mars Hill
Drew Kiser, Tusculum
Oliver Smith, Tusculum
Drew Owen, Wingate


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If this is really not just a common underlying php framework issue,
it might be best to avoid any negative publicity. In any event, has
anyone verified the interface beyond the appearance?
Assuming that this is a license violation, I'm willing to bet that the
6Wind company would donate some gear, hosting under contract, and/or
money to the m0n0wall project in exchange for a special non-disclosure
license. The m0n0wall project would receive resources. The company
would save face before their customers and support the software pipeline
that a critical portion of their product, and therefore business, is
based off of.
While 6Wind needs to tow the line, there may be few reasons to
negatively affect both parties when both can benefit from this situation.
Lee Sharp wrote:
> Timothy Taylor wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I was rather surprised to discover a firewall that has an astonishingly
>> similar interface to m0n0wall
>> <http://www.6wind.com/PDF/prod/web-management/license.html> but without
>> any credit to Manuel et al. Should I be disturbed or surprised? I
>> haven't actually used the product, I just came across the pages during a
>> Google search on "snmp firewall rule".
> Flagrant license violation. From the m0n0wall license page;
> Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
> modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
> 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice,
> this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
> 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
> notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
> documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
> They are in clear violation of #2. Manuel has them by the balls. I
> think he can get damages, and force them to notify all customers. :)
> Lee
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: m0n0wall dash unsubscribe at lists dot m0n0 dot ch
> For additional commands, e-mail: m0n0wall dash help at lists dot m0n0 dot ch


text:
Results 1 to 3 of 3
- Join Date
- May 2013
- Location
- Osburn,Idaho-soon to move Salt lake
- Posts
- 15
Reason#5 I'm hooked on archery...
I've had my Parker Eagle for a few months now,and I've taken the next step into the sport,not by buying a higher level bow,but by using this entry level bow to cut my d.i.y. teeth with.The 'do it yourself' aspect of archery for both current target/3d and future hunting(I've never hunted-planning for next season back in North Idaho) is half of what's keeping me interested.
The fact that I can re-string my own bow,serve in string/cable accessories and cut and fletch my own super cool looking arrows makes this feel like model rocketry did as a kid.With attention to detail and safety,that was 'serious fun' then,and same goes for archery now.Cool BTW-the arrows in the pic are just stock, newer photos will be of shafts with 2 black and white blazer tiger stripe vanes and one neon yellow
As a life long tinkerer and bike nut I've always found ways to put my spin on existing designs.The whiskers on the string are made from bicycle inner tubes,they're wrapped a little thick but seem to work quite well in silencing the string.The outer 2 " of the stabilizer/dampener is an add-on I came up with for additional length/weight and dampening-hard to quantify but it seems to work pretty well.
The 7 pin TruGlo adjustable sight has been a blast to play with, and installing the Revolution Micro rest was a great learning experience as it required serving a correctly timed ****ing rope into the downward buss cable.I really like this launcher and chose it because it's design appealed to the tinkerer in me.
And of course, I installed the nock loop and peep myself.All of this stuff will be done with better fit and finish(and a tubeless peep) next time-part of getting hooked on the hobby part of this adventure.
The arrows in the pic were shot from 20 yards using this setup at our new place in Spanish Fork, Utah.The garage with that end of the driveway almost entirely surrounded closely by brick walls,makes for a sweet and safe indoor/outdoor 20 yard range with up to 12 yards completely indoors.Oh,and those targets ate up a couple of years worth of recycled cardboard boxes and egg cartons.
One last thing,I thought this pic was cool when I noticed that the bow is at first glance, pretty well camoflauged into the shop.
Last edited by stevepro65; 08-27-2013 at 12:16 PM.
- Join Date
- May 2013
- Location
- Osburn,Idaho-soon to move Salt lake
- Posts
- 15
can't edit I guess,
but the bleeped out word in the text is not what you might think.The word I used for for the rope used to pull back the arrow rest was 'c o c k ing', hehe.
I just started working on my own bow here and there its kinda fun and frustrating at the same time I still won't touch mommas bow not yet.
I want to stay married a little longer. Someday I'll feel confident enough to do mommas
Red. PSE Supra ME
Black. PSE Supra ME
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text: Racism in Sports? It's Checks, Not Balances Tuesday, May 18, 2004 By Chris Sprow Don King, who has spent time in prison, has had bullets nestled comfortably in the back of his head for over 30 years, has been in court more than Judge Judy, and has made millions by "promoting" boxing events for decades, is fond of saying "Only In America!" He's halfway right. He should have said, only in American sports. King is often barely coherent, but his success is not debatable. King promotes blacks, whites, Latins, or Asians with equal vigor. Take your race card elsewhere. This is economics. Checks, (cashable ones) not balances. How about Jamie Foxx? Foxx, on the eve of the 50th Anniversary of Brown vs. Board of Education, reminded us why sports may always be the peaceful eye of any racial hurricane. On a Sportscenter segment called the "Budweiser Hot Seat" (read: useless filler for cash) yesterday, Foxx answered this Jay Harris question: who should start next year for the Dallas Cowboys? "I love Quincy (Carter), he's my boy and all and he's black, but I got to go with Drew." Said Foxx. "Quincy's had his shot but it's about winning, race has got nothing to do with it." Try that phrasing in any other segment of society and eyebrows get raised. In sports, it drew laughs, or more amazingly, no attention at all. Why? We don't care about diversity, we care about title delivery. Quotas? Give us quality starts. You may think racial balance is vital, but you would know better if you were writing the checks. Sadly, it took the courageous Jackie Robinson for the world of money sports to realize its potential. However, since his arrival, and the slow process of full integration that followed, we have in many ways achieved the true American dream, but for a different reason than we think. Let us not forget, Branch Rickey, the Brooklyn Dodgers president who so "courageously" signed Robinson, made an economic decision just as much as he made a social one. It was about the color of money, not the color of skin. It was performance, not an attempt to pacify critics, or infuriate bigots. While other realms of a free society attempt to manifest a semblance of equality through point systems and quotas, squirming while forcing a twin sheet onto a queen-size bed, the world of sports simply asks, "You any good?" And with a "Yes", they say, "Fine, prove it." So if you're white and you want to cry foul at Foxx like the Democratic senate screeched at Trent Lott last year for a far more ambiguous statement, go ahead. But don't expect results. Expect laughs. In sports, the message is clear, you produce, you play…and you get paid. The University of Michigan last year successfully upheld key tenets of their entrance policies, which recognize ethnicity as well as test scores in their quest for diversity. Fine. However, if you see a paid scout adding a few integers to a white player's free throw percentage, or a few points to a black player's batting averages, you are delusional. The world of sports is still ruled by the only sane social science: economics. And that, incredibly, make Foxx's comments laughable. Root for blacks if you want. Root for whites if it feels good. In sports, you had better root for their stats. In sports, the term "millionaire" knows no skin color. Make all the arguments you want about how there are not enough blacks driving stock cars, not enough whites on basketball courts, or not enough of either on the table tennis circuit. This is not racism. This is America. Land of the free…free to get rich. This is economics. People have the choice and incentive to pursue the sport, or "avocation" as the NCAA calls it, that not only gives them the greatest opportunity to date the head cheerleader, but in some cases, to get paid millions and sit the bench in any number of pro leagues. The NBA does not have time for affirmative action. They have a product to sell, and 147 more Steve Kerr clones won't get shoe companies drooling. Major League Baseball has seen a decline in the number of African American players in recent years. I would bet a Jackie Robinson autographed bat to your John Rocker signed glove that no quota will be in place to fix it. Blame it on an influx of Latin American players. Blame it on basketball and football and even soccer, sports that statistically have drawn a great deal of blacks away from the diamond. However, blame will never be placed on the people writing the checks. Acknowledging the shortsightedness of Rush Limbaugh's comments about Donovan McNabb in the fall, we must remember, perhaps his greatest error was not seeing see his own fallibility. He never donned a pro jersey. So to even toy with racism, he needed to come from within sports. Instead, he was seen as an outsider perpetuating the idea that the social problems of the real world, a place where racism does exist, could actually be plausible in sports. It does not work. Sure, there is racism in sports. Comments are made. Battles are fought. There have been those to help break the mold. Branch Rickey, Don Haskins, even the great Bear Bryant, who in 1970 took African American running back Sam Cunningham into his own Alabama Crimson Tide locker room after they were thrashed by USC in front of their home crowd and said, "This is Sam Cunningham. This is what a football player looks like." They all helped bring us to where we are. And now, where we are, it really comes down to this: Who's good? Who stinks? As Bobby Knight used to say, "If I listen to the people in the stands, pretty soon I'll be sitting with them." Funny, too. Some critics once foolishly called Knight a racist. That is laughable, because if anybody knows, it's a born winner like Knight. In sports, it's who wins that matters, not what color the players are who get it done. And the ones who win, sometimes they get paid. It's all checks (the written ones), forget the balances. Chris Sprow is the Director of Media Development and a regular columnist for Chicago Sports Review. He can be reached at email@example.com.


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Coffee Makers
Commercial Coffee Makers
If you measure your coffee consumption in gallons rather than one ounce shots, then you are in the right place! We stock high quality products from BUNN and also Curtis, industry leading manufacturers that provide a full range of commercial coffee makers and grinders for every application. Whether your rush is in the morning, noon or night, these coffee makers continually churn coffee into the urn. From 60 to a whopping 302 cups of coffee per hour, you can have quantity and quality to please your patrons.
BUNN 1.5 Gallon ThermoFresh ServerEven here at our place on Monday morning there can be a line queuing for coffee. Someone usually daydreams aloud about brewing directly into their mouth. Skip the line, and the scalded mouth, by having plenty of coffee on-hand with the BUNN 1.5 gallon ThermoFersh server. It has a visible gauge so you know when you are running low. Purchase more than one as insurance to never have to wait for a batch to brew. Learn More$299.00
Curtis ThermoPro 1.5 Gallon Thermal Server with BaseThe ThermoPro G4 Digital Coffee Brewing Systems use the Curtis ThermoPro 1.5 gallon thermal servers. These are designed to provide optimum heat retention and the stainless steel liner provides commercial durability. The base makes it easy to set up and transport as does the sturdy handles. The brew through top keeps the heat and all the flavor in. There is a separate drip tray for easy cup location and cleaning. Just over 8 inches of cup clearance allows for easy filling of anything from a short to a venti cup. Learn More$299.00


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Each serves 1.
Prepare your favorite sugar cookie recipe or use refrigerated cookie dough. Tint a portion of dough skin tone; roll out and cut with boy cookie cutter. Roll out plain dough, draw a hat shape with toothpick and cut with spatula. Roll a small ball of skin tone dough for nose. Position nose and hat on boy cut-out.
Thin plain cookie dough with water to reach piping consistency; divide in thirds. Tint 1/3 dough white, 1/3 red and 1/3 blue. Using tinted dough, pipe hat detail with tip 4. Using tip 3, pipe in clothing and hat band. Add tip 2 pipe-in beard, string mouth and dot eyes. Bake and cool cookies following recipe directions. While still hot, insert flag pick in hand and cool.
Attach cookie treat stick to back of cookie with melted candy. If desired, arrange cookie pops in a container or place on serving plate.


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34 35th St., Unit 26, Brooklyn, NY, 11232
Pop-Up Party on the Lowline!
DDC09 students have used all their wisdom and know-how collected over the course of this summer to plan their final project – A Pop-Up Party! The party will include ice-cold lemonade (delivered via pulley system to both Highline and Lowline visitors), a fort for contemplating life, games (competive box ball, hula hoops, checkers...), live musical performances, a movie theater for two screening this summer's creations, a hanging garden and edible plant giveaway, and a jacuzzi!
Join us!
Tuesday, July 28th, 6-8pm
19th st between 10th and 11th Ave (beneath the Highline)
People: Stephanie Pereira, Christina Kral, Adriana Young
Research: Education
Tags: DDC, DDC09, summer school
Research: Education
Tags: DDC, DDC09, summer school
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text:
Submit News
Ford Offers $10k Discount on Leases for Slow Selling Focus EV
Shane McGlaun
January 25, 2013 8:48 AM
Recipient E-mail
Sender E-mail
$10,750 discount includes $7,500 federal tax credit
Electric vehicles aren't exactly selling in droves for automakers around the world. Many of today's highly efficient gasoline-engine vehicles are offering such high fuel efficiency ratings that it makes little sense to pay the extra money for hybrids or EV for many consumers (that is unless you
live in California
Ford is trying to get customers to lease its Focus EV electric vehicle and is offering significant discounts to land buyers. Ford has announced that it has dropped the base price of the Focus EV by $2,000 on cash purchases. Ford is also offering as much is $10,750 off the cost of a three-year lease.
Ford also plans to offer 1.9% financing on the Focus EV if purchased through Ford Motor Credit. The Focus EV didn't have a good 2012 with Ford selling only 685 of 1,627 vehicles it built. That sales rate made the Focus EV one of the
worst performers
in the industry.
Ford isn't alone in having to discount its electric vehicles to get consumers more interested; Nissan also recently dropped the price of its 2013 Leaf by 18%. The Leaf now
starts at $28,800
and Nissan is offering new incentives to help boost sales.
"We certainly are not in a situation where we have to completely discount but we do have to respond to competitive pressures," Ford spokesman Wes Sherwood said. "We're not anywhere close where Nissan has gone with the Leaf."
The Ford lease offer is on Red Carpet leases if buyers take retail delivery by April 1. If the buyer meets those conditions, they will receive $10,750 off (a figure which includes the $7,500 federal tax credit).
The MSRP for the Focus EV base model is $39,995, while the new price for cash purchases is $37,995.
Detroit News
"A lot of people pay zero for the cellphone ... That's what it's worth." -- Apple Chief Operating Officer Timothy Cook
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Nissan Leaf Base Model Price Drops by More Than $6,000 to $28,800
January 15, 2013, 3:40 AM
Quick Note: Ford Only Sells 38 Focus EVs in U.S. for July
August 3, 2012, 2:15 PM
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Kristopher Kubicki


text:
I love this group but am a long time lurker! I find there isn't much action on the Canadian site, but I am starting to make a budget and work out our debt free plan and would love to know some cost-saving tips from other Canadians!
I have a monthly after-tax budget of $5500.00 but I live in a VERY HCOL area. We are so motivated to get out of debt though that we are taking pretty drastic measures including cutting down to one car, etc. We find our 'life' expenses can very out of control though. I have one 3 year old and a baby due in less than 6 weeks!
Thanks in Advance!


text:
St. Lydia's is a progressive ELCA/Episcopal church that worships around a meal every Sunday night in Brooklyn, New York. Pastoral minister Emily Scott explains the concept of "dinner church": "Our central act at St. Lydia's is to gather together around a meal and around a table. The idea is that when we're at this table [Read More…]
Dinner Church at St. Lydia's [VIDEO]
July 2, 2012 by 180 Comments