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Christianists on the March
Posted on Jan 28, 2007
By Chris Hedges
Chris Hedges, who graduated from seminary at Harvard Divinity School and worked for many years as a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, warns that the Christian Right is the most dangerous mass movement in American history.
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Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, told his students that when we were his age—he was then close to 80—we would all be fighting the "Christian fascists."
The warning, given 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and television evangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts toward taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global Christian empire. This call for fundamentalists and evangelicals to take political power was a radical and ominous mutation of traditional Christianity. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.
He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He had been in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as the Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Adams was eventually detained and interrogated by the Gestapo, who suggested he might want to consider returning to the United States. It was a suggestion he followed. He left on a night train with framed portraits of Adolf Hitler placed over the contents of his suitcases to hide the rolls of home-movie film he had taken of the so-called German Christian Church, which was pro-Nazi, and the few individuals who defied the Nazis, including the theologians Karl Barth and Albert Schweitzer. The ruse worked when the border police lifted the tops of the suitcases, saw the portraits of the Führer and closed them up again. I watched hours of the grainy black-and-white films as he narrated in his apartment in Cambridge.
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These Christian utopians promise to replace this internal and external emptiness with a mythical world where time stops and all problems are solved. The mounting despair rippling across the United States, one I witnessed repeatedly as I traveled the country, remains unaddressed by the Democratic Party, which has abandoned the working class, like its Republican counterpart, for massive corporate funding. The Christian right has lured tens of millions of Americans, who rightly feel abandoned and betrayed by the political system, from the reality-based world to one of magic—to fantastic visions of angels and miracles, to a childlike belief that God has a plan for them and Jesus will guide and protect them. This mythological worldview, one that has no use for science or dispassionate, honest intellectual inquiry, one that promises that the loss of jobs and health insurance does not matter, as long as you are right with Jesus, offers a lying world of consistency that addresses the emotional yearnings of desperate followers at the expense of reality. It creates a world where facts become interchangeable with opinions, where lies become true—the very essence of the totalitarian state. It includes a dark license to kill, to obliterate all those who do not conform to this vision, from Muslims in the Middle East to those at home who refuse to submit to the movement. And it conveniently empowers a rapacious oligarchy whose god is maximum profit at the expense of citizens. We now live in a nation where the top 1 percent control more wealth than the bottom 90 percent combined, where we have legalized torture and can lock up citizens without trial. Arthur Schlesinger, in "The Cycles of American History," wrote that "the great religious ages were notable for their indifference to human rights in the contemporary sense—not only for their acquiescence in poverty, inequality and oppression, but for their enthusiastic justification of slavery, persecution, torture and genocide."
His critique of the prominent research universities, along with the media, was no less withering. These institutions, self-absorbed, compromised by their close relationship with government and corporations, given enough of the pie to be complacent, were unwilling to deal with the fundamental moral questions and inequities of the age. They had no stomach for a battle that might cost them their prestige and comfort. He told me, I suspect half in jest, that if the Nazis took over America "60 percent of the Harvard faculty would begin their lectures with the Nazi salute." But this too was not an abstraction. He had watched academics at the University of Heidelberg, including the philosopher Martin Heidegger, raise their arms stiffly to students before class.
Two decades later, even in the face of the growing reach of the Christian right, his prediction seems apocalyptic. And yet the powerbrokers in the Christian right have moved from the fringes of society to the floor of the House of Representatives and the Senate. Forty-five senators and 186 members of the House before the last elections earned approval ratings of 80 to100 percent from the three most influential Christian right advocacy groups—the Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, and Family Resource Council. President Bush has handed hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid to these groups and dismantled federal programs in science, reproductive rights and AIDS research to pay homage to the pseudo-science and quackery of the Christian right.
The radical Christian right, calling for a "Christian state"—where whole segments of American society, from gays and lesbians to liberals to immigrants to artists to intellectuals, will have no legitimacy and be reduced, at best, to second-class citizens—awaits a crisis, an economic meltdown, another catastrophic terrorist strike or a series of environmental disasters. A period of instability will permit them to push through their radical agenda, one that will be sold to a frightened American public as a return to security and law and order, as well as moral purity and prosperity. This movement—the most dangerous mass movement in American history—will not be blunted until the growing social and economic inequities that blight this nation are addressed, until tens of millions of Americans, now locked in hermetic systems of indoctrination through Christian television and radio, as well as Christian schools, are reincorporated into American society and given a future, one with hope, adequate wages, job security and generous federal and state assistance. The unchecked rape of America, which continues with the blessing of both political parties, heralds not only the empowerment of this American oligarchy but the eventual death of the democratic state and birth of American fascism.
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By susan28, August 31, 2008 at 4:59 am Link to this comment
Rev Jack Shearer with his site gives the most complete deconstruction of how Dominionism came to be, and how deeply its tentacles reach into our government today, attempting to legitimise - to the elites' delight - the creeping fascism that is now coming to full fruition. he makes the point that they are just being played by the corporate elites, which they are of course, but for now are content to be thrown a few bones by their handlers in the form of a little power to persecute their boogeymen in the gay and womens' rights movement, and "secularists" in general.. all except the corporate secularists who run the planet, of course, whom they view as "instruments of God" in their little jihad.
check out http://www.antipasministries.com, pretty scathing stuff, and something to consider for sincere Christians who really wanna walk the walk, but valuable to all concerned as a geopolitical primer. (Shearer was an intelligence operative in Vietnam who grew a conscience, basically, and knows where more than a few bodies are buried, both in the government and the Church).
By Kwaayesnama, August 18, 2008 at 8:15 am Link to this comment
In my bible the Fifth Commandment reads simply and clearly: Thou shalt not kill. Rick Warren as a supposed man of God should have questioned John McCain and Barack Obama if invading a country in false pretenses and killing and maiming thousands if not millions of people is murder.
By morgan-lynn lamberth skeptic griggsy, March 23, 2007 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment
Skruff , right . I meant serious child abuse. My computer is my higer power . I lacked faith for awhile: I thought that my higer power had abandoned me and thought that was why I was so listless and not wanting to use it . But the power came through -hallelujah !I am saved! Once saved, always saved .
By Skruff, March 23, 2007 at 6:32 am Link to this comment
Comment #59915 by morgan lamberth on 3/22 at 11:19 am claims:
"Child abuse -the rod- is prohibited"
Wish it were so Ms Lamberth. BUT from Blue Blue Maine to Red Red Mississippi, Children may be subjected to corporal punishment. Many from their teachers as well as their parents. The standard in Maine (for example) is that corporal punishment for discipline may not leave bruises or abrasions which last more than 10 days.
BY The Way…. The passage in the Bible allowing use of "rod" is a King James variation. The passage origionally used "shaft" the shaft was a sheep's crook, used to lead, not to hit.
By John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment
Basically, enlightened people are prejudiced against every pack of humans. It is not our duty to pretend that anyone is particularly worthwhile or virtuous.
Most Americans have lower middle class values because those values have become a national dogma which is constantly reinforced by the media. Lower middle class values are a direct descendant of peasant values. They are described in numerous sociology texts.
The corrupt everything that is decent in this society and they breed a climate of endless lies and dishonesty. They are one of the worst tyrannies ever devised.
By John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment
We must tax all the manifestations of lower middle class human waste. That means the bogus blockhead churches as well.
By morgan lamberth, March 22, 2007 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment
Skruff , no ,not back then . Nowadays they use ours if they reason about morality and not go by those horrible morals of yore.Oh, many now still follow that nonsense , harming others .Certainly, the religious right does wrong , but even its members use ours iff they reason with facts, not their tastes .That is , slavery is gone pretty much .Women have more rights.There is less sexual repression. Child abuse -the rod- is prohibited .Contrary to traditionalists , we are more moral now.There has been moral progress.
By John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 11:03 am Link to this comment
Which is worse? Mainstream religions get their strength from their character as cults. If they ever saw God, they would shoot him, her, or it on sight. On the other hand, enlightened religions are basically physical cowards. They allow the "religious" abuses to go on without picketing a single catholic church, a synagogue, or a fundamentalist church. It takes 20 suckers to support a crook, and it takes 50 lazy cowards to support both.
By Skruff, March 22, 2007 at 7:55 am Link to this comment
Comment #59697 by morgan-lynn lamberth on 3/21 at 10:06 am
Ana right to an extent. I do however, object to their silly doctines. But most religious people most of the time act morally as we,using our humanist morality
The Spanish inquisition
Christians more moral than whom?
By morgan-lynn lamberth, March 21, 2007 at 11:06 am Link to this comment
Ana right to an extent. I do however, object to their silly doctines. But most religious people most of the time act morally as we,using our humanist morality !
By Ana, March 20, 2007 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment
I find no problems with the Christian (or almost any other) religion when it is kept at just that, religion. My problem (and rightly so) begins when religious beliefs become law—especially when such beliefs replace or interfere with science. I have seen that happening in this country and feel sick. It is so sad to watch our country move backwards, to see people fight to take away another's civil rights, and all the while claiming they are doing it in the name of God. I thought we were founded on seperation of church and state, and that it was those crazy Taliban-run countries that based their laws on religion?
Again, I have no problems with the Christian religion. I have serious problems when religious beliefs start leaking into legislation, as they have so clearly begun to do already (gay marriage, stem cell research, "intelligent design", etc). It is disgusting to have scientific fact dismissed and replaced by religious theory. (As our president has proudly done with the introduction of "intelligent design". That may be what he believes, but who the hell is he to demand that his belief be taught to every child in America? Who is he to force the dismissal of years and years of scientific fact? ) The act of doing so gives way to a very slippery slope. Making religion into law. Hmmm…I wonder how the Taliban got started?
By IRQ Conflict, March 14, 2007 at 6:02 am Link to this comment
Why does anybody give any credence to this liar? You would be best served to research people before taking any of his tripe to heart. He is nobody.
By Skruff, March 13, 2007 at 10:56 am Link to this comment
Comment #58226 by John Hanks on 3/12 at 7:54 pm says:
"I am prejudiced against lower middle class values, but not lower middle class people. The American way of life is lower middle class with its infantile infatuation with symbols and not substance, its inability to compare and contrast, and its perpetual anger and condescension toward anyone who enjoys lively conversation, reads good books, or writes a letter to the editor."
I don't know what stereotypical "lower-middle-class-values" you mean. The values you suggest below might belong to William Randolph Hurst, John D Rockefeller, or any number of VAnderbildts.
My friends who live in trailers, three-decker walk-ups, and pre-built trac-homes have values as different from each-others as they are from thefolks listed above.
Some even embrace loyalty to family and friends, a desire to see their children achieve more, and a a strong work ethic.
Come on John, admit your bigotry and use "trailer-trash" & "swamp-nigger" in your posts… I understand what you are saying….even if you do not.
By John Hanks, March 12, 2007 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment
I am prejudiced against lower middle class values, but not lower middle class people. The American way of life is lower middle class with its infantile infatuation with symbols and not substance, its inability to compare and contrast, and its perpetual anger and condescension toward anyone who enjoys lively conversation, reads good books, or writes a letter to the editor.
This is the fertile soil for every sort of monstrosity from fundamentalism to fascism to nazism and to corporate media culture. To keep lower middle class values, you have to fight every day to ignore and stay away from the facts and ideas that determine our increasingly pathetic destiny.
By Skruff, March 12, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment
Comment #57750 by John Hanks the scribe writes:
"Democracy was born of the enlightenment, not of Christianity. Christianity did contribute to the rise of individualism by emphasizing the fate of the individual soul. However the naval gazing aspect of Christianity has always made it subject to every sort of crook. Fear fuels every protection racket and especially the fear of the unknown or punishment in the hereafter. The rise of modern fundamentalism paralleled the rise of the lower middle class, which is fearful and angry at everything that is unfamiliar."
There is no democratic country in the world today. These united states have never been a democratic country. Ben Franklin, when asked told a citizen that we had "A republic if we can keep it" No democracy would allow a party system like ours, an electorial college, or a senate system based on geography rather than a one man one vote system.
Wyoming had a population of 509,204 Vermont had a population of 621,394 Both statea have 3 electors a system which disenfranches over 100,000 Vermont citizens. That isn't anywhere near "democracy" and it doesn't matter how many "enlightened folks" say it is.
Second, I suppose some "lower middle class folk" are the angry zenophobic people you contend they are. I worked on the textile looms ($1.45-an-hour in 1969) in Lawrence with the most wonderful "lower-middle-class folk" They shared everything they had, they laughed, joked, cried and questioned the concept of "god" just as "the enlightened" few do on this board.
I seriously doubt that the inner-city black folks (who vote almost as a solid Democratic block) fit your classification either. Or the native folks who occasionally pray to a different diety.
No, I think your concept is repulsive and wrong. I would hope you reconsider.
By morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 12, 2007 at 8:16 am Link to this comment
Hanks, except for the bit about the lower middle class, I do agree with you. Their egos are so tied into the supernatural or the paranormal , that they feel they would lose a friend or source of help , if they changed .It will take emotions to help them overcome their superstition .Anyway, most are just fine .But we do have to take on these Christianists, faith -healers and frauds . Bizby ,can you add anything? I applaud my fellow skeptics .
By John Hanks, March 9, 2007 at 10:27 pm Link to this comment
Democracy was born of the enlightenment, not of Christianity. Christianity did contribute to the rise of individualism by emphasizing the fate of the individual soul. However the naval gazing aspect of Christianity has always made it subject to every sort of crook. Fear fuels every protection racket and especially the fear of the unknown or punishment in the hereafter. The rise of modern fundamentalism paralleled the rise of the lower middle class, which is fearful and angry at everything that is unfamiliar.
By morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 9, 2007 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment
I abjure all thought control movements. I do not care for the supernatural and the paranormal, despite my schizotypy. I objurate faith healing and religious fraud. I find that most of those who engage in the supernatural and the paranormal do fine .I think that most fundamentalists would not follow the Dominionists!
By susan 28, March 8, 2007 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment
#56754 by Moe Hare "CIA missionaries".
Moe, the linked article goes into that in full detail - the pastor of Antipas Ministries, from whose site that article was taken, is a Vietnam vet and former intelligence pro who is also an evqangelical preacher, whose ministry is dedicated (among other things) to exposing the Dominionist movement for what it is, so he speaks from experience in both realms.
the site details the whole history of the movement from its inception to modern day, citing missionary use in political terorrism in Haiti, Latin America and elsewhere. there are literally hundreds of articles, all useful in and of themselves but because he's a preacher all include biblical references to back up their claims that the Christian Right is an apostate (heretical) movement, and ties it directly to the Antichrist in Revelations, for those who put stock in that, as well as to debunk the Right's claims that "Godless liberals" are the Antichrist; he clearly shows that the Abtichrist as described will emerge from the Christian church itself (the False Messiah, who will not be overtly anti-Christian but rather will masquerade as Christian and preach "global unity under Christ" - not UN secularism) when it will be corrupted by an alliance with "the Beast", which will be a singular superpower with hegemonic military might ("who can make war with her?", etc).
i must say that the parallel is startling. it's disturbing enough to me as an agnostic (who was raised Catholic and had years of Bible study) but to true believers it should be downright horrifying. worth a read for everyone, but i warn it's not for the squeamish or those who prefer to cling to the notion that "it can't happen here"..
*sigh* it's like watching a trainwreck in slow motion, only from *inside* the train..
By morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 8, 2007 at 10:28 am Link to this comment
Surely, we have to have a consensus ! We should agree on the fundamentals that murder,rape,slavery and theft are wrong and that altruism is right against Ayn Rand .Our morality follows Jeremy Bentham in using the pleasure -pain principle and moralists who have adviocated the silver or golden rules. We discern what is good or bad for humans , other animals and the enviornment.In that sense , morality embraces objective values . It is provisional and debateable. It is contextual, not absolute or relative. We do have to free ourselves of presentism or ethnocentrism , but I think ours is valid for all persons at all times taking those two measures into account. I favor the Nanny State to take care of our welfare when private measures lack as they sorely do .Others can debate that . Fine, but we do so with reason and facts. I recommnend Michael Shermer's " The Science of Right and Wrong", Paul Kurtz's "Forbidden Fruit " Michael Martin's "Atheism , Morality and Meaning" and RIchard Robinson's "An Atheist Values." for atheist defenses of morality .
By Moe Hare, March 4, 2007 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment
Susan, you forgot to mention the special CIA missionaries.
By susan28, March 3, 2007 at 11:08 pm Link to this comment
#53928 by Skruff
"My father believes that missionaries aare sent to other countries to make them safe for capitalism".
everything you ever wanted to know about American "missionary" work but were scared sh*tless to ask.. and this article is by a group of fundamentalist evengelicals, mind you. they've been there and back with these people and aren't afraid to name names. they take the whole movement apart bolt by bolt. the site is just mindblowing. even *i* was shocked and i thought i'd heard it all. brave folks.
By John Hanks, February 17, 2007 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment
I think some of my posts have not been passed on.
The point I always try to make is the it is not our morals that are at fault for the mess we are in. Our institutions must be blamed instead. Neocons, and religionists of all sorts have launched a direct assault on our schools, government, courts, media, etc. with little understanding or resistance.
A lower middle class society that is constantly pandered by a media that exploits lower middle class values cannot stand outside of the box and see these right-wing traitors for what they are.
By John Hanks, February 17, 2007 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment
Nazis, Neocons, Religionists, etc. all have one thing in common. They reify (sp) ideas so that self-serving abstractions (ie master race) are real. They believe that they have a right to lie, cheat, steal and even kill to further some inherently impossible agenda. They are extremely dangerous because they are criminals.
I would like to have them spending the rest of their lives in Leavenworth and on the net so people can tune in and see just how ordinary most criminals are.
By Skruff, February 17, 2007 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment
Comment #54097 by morgan lynn lamberth on 2/17 at 1:54 am
"... we have always had the moral sense,but it is a matter of developing it to be world wide in scope; for the world…"
What is "morality" and how do you define it across cultures?
What is "moral" to me, may be immoral to you. I, for an instance, do not believe in "charity" I believe is a "natural selection" way of propigating the race. I believe in "Commonwealth" over Statehood,
What's moral? What's not?
Don't we have to have a consensus before we export it?
By morgan lynn lamberth, February 17, 2007 at 2:54 am Link to this comment
I was peluccid[quite clear.]I am a college graduate whose English professors did not object to my syntax. I could read better as I was only two years better than my peers . One more point to my economic points: unions could play a more vibrant role in the new social contract. Now please everyone, get onto the subject : how do we oppose the Christianists? Would public service ads work? Christianist quotes on billboards ? It might help to have the more tolerant fundamentalists sound out that they ,too, oppose the Christianists. Most of the fundamentalists do not want the Biblical version of law .Willian, good points.And the golden rule was taught long before Yeshua .No fingers in the sky gave us morality; we have always had the moral sense,but it is a matter of developing it to be world wide in scope; for the world is our neighbor.
By Skruff, February 16, 2007 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment
Comment #54031 by Jeff Badura on 2/16 at 1:56 pm says
"we live in a culture that has the highest standard of living in the history of mankind point blank so step back and smell the roses dont let others filthy wealth discourage you from enjoying your relatively good existence !!"
About that last….You're wrong… but I'll never convince you!
I really wish you could see the trailer park a bit east of Machias. Little children about seven and eight play in the stacks of garbage heaped to the rear of the park. the cracked windows are stuffed with rags and the whole place stinks (especially in the winter) because an open sewer runs down next to the trailers to the lake-sized cesspool off to the side. The parents in this park often use drugs, including alcohol, and they don't seem to have much ambition, BUT wwhat about the children? Do they deserve an existance like this because of their bad luck?
Pine Ridge in South Dakota is another place which looks (and smells) more like the third-world than here where wealth lives. But who cares about Indians?
maybe that education you plan to obtain will open your eyes.
By Jeff Badura, February 16, 2007 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment
hello all !!!
- from the soapbox of, Da IllGramaticus KneeO'Kaun
By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 16, 2007 at 10:41 am Link to this comment
I stand unchallenged.We receive outsourcing also !Our use of machinery as Einstein long ago observed makes us the top dog .If we had the European social contract , our workers wouldn't suffer.So,I stand with those unemployed workers !Don't fault trade with no argument ! Textile jobs benefitted workers of South Carolina against those of Massachusetts; now it is Chineses workers in textiles who benefiT. Push for a new social contract .We have less unemployment than Europe, so Europe needs to get a better employment enviornment.We certainly indeed need to press the Chinese government to give the citizens a new liberal social contract as far as they can do so, step by step . I am with Sen . Charles Schumer to get the Chinese to buy more from us. Do not forget the export workers who stand to gain from free trade. A serious discusssion is in order, not my villification .Now we must oppose the Christianists ! That is the subject at hand.How do others challenge them ? As a naturalist, I will unite with others to oppose them through civil liberties groups. We need to oppose mightily the Roushdoonies !
By Jeff Badura, February 16, 2007 at 7:38 am Link to this comment
thanks Terry Sloth for pointing that out !! i didn't know i was grammatically challenged???
i thought we were discussing history, politics and religious philosophy and global economies??? whats the population of Pakistan? whats the unemployment rate in the USA? whats the difference between Christian zealots and Islamic extremist's and what is a Nazi??? that's what we are talking about?? i thing the diction class is on another site, you might have sent your post to the wrong place?
must not have anything intelligent to say about the topics so you need to point out spelling errors???
By Skruff, February 16, 2007 at 6:43 am Link to this comment
Interesting that a article entitled "christianists of the march" has evolved to a discussion about wages, and profits.
My father believes that missionaries aare sent to other countries to make them safe for capitalism.
SO, maybe the discussion hasn't "evolved" at all. maybe God, religion, and particularly xtianity have always been about money!
By Polly Ester, February 15, 2007 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
This article explains why it is imperative for the U.S. to rethink their policies on economics, globalization and energy consumption:
"Revitalize the US Manufacturing Base with Energy Reconfiguration. Alan Greenspan, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve, gave Americans the peculiar impression that it does not matter where American products are made, as long as people can continue to buy them. Nothing could be further from the truth. The loss of over 3 million US manufacturing jobs since 2000 has led to decreased real income, growing personal debt, and record numbers of personal bankruptcies. A superpower that loses its manufacturing base will not be a major power for very long.
The most viable careers in the 21st century will likely revolve around the green job sector. The US must substantially invest in alternative/sustainable-energy technologies, and other export sectors to gradually but earnestly move the economy from a trade deficit back to a trade account surplus. This will take decades, but the imperative for large-scale domestic energy reconfiguration projects and the deployment of alternative energy would provide the US with new employment opportunities that would be safe from overseas outsourcing, while also enhancing our long-term national security."
By John Hanks, February 15, 2007 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment
We have been plagued with Fundamentalists, Zionists, Moonies and other bogus religious movements almost forever. Most of them are criminally subversive and their leaders belong in Leavenworth for sedition and treason.
As long as liberals and progressives continue to insist on saving their souls and providing a good example, they will be fighting crooks with one arm tied behind their back. When dealing with this kind of lower middle class filth anger is a waste of time. Only a continuous black hatred will do.
These people are criminals. They are not moral actors. They are deaf to any human appeal.
By Terry Sloth, February 15, 2007 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment
Morgan-Lynn and Jeff,
I think you both mentioned that youre going back to college to improve your employment opportunities, let me suggest two college classes that will be helpful—reading comprehension and expository writing.
After reviewing your comments, it is quite clear that both of you have difficulty expressing yourselves in a literate fashion. English classes could enhance your chances of obtaining a higher position. However, nothing is guaranteed since we do live in a global, competitive, and non-protectionist economy, so it is very possible, that a worker in China or India will have a far superior command of the English Language-thats life.
By Anne, February 15, 2007 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment
Jeff (and Morgan)
By Skruff, February 15, 2007 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment
Comment #53773 by morgan -lynn lamberth on 2/15 at 10:15 am says:
"Protectionism is nothing more than anti-competiveness"
It is hard to be civil to folks who advocate the abandonment of the American worker in favor of the nameless hords abroad.
When you speak of "competiveness" you fail to mention that workers in China are often paid in rice and live in prison cells. How can an American worker "compete" with someone who has no expenses?
So while you sell us out in the name of "social justice" maybe you should find out what type of "justice" exists where we are exporting jobs.
while you are at it, you might wish to visit Lawrence Massachusetts, Patterson New Jersey, or Gary Indiana and tell the displaced workers attempting to feed their (American)children how they can cut their wages enough to compete with chinese prisoners.
By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 15, 2007 at 11:15 am Link to this comment
Protectionism is nothing more than anti-competiveness , the protection of some at the expense of the majority.We need to sell more and buy more abroad to up wages and buying power. That is modern history . As Dr. Paul Krugman notes , we need an industrial policy for workers .Buying from your neighbor or from Beijing is the same thing .Without government involvement , there is economuc royalism; with, there is fairness, Americanism.Pat Choate, Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs's solutions would beggar us .Americanism- fair play for all- is the ultimate solution!Protectionism is just like saying it is your money in arguing for tax cuts when social needs arise- it just does not work !
By Jeff Badura, February 15, 2007 at 10:13 am Link to this comment
Hello Eleanore
yes you are correct we do not share the same world view !! i understand your point about some aren't ready able or willing to go to college and your right, but unfortunately in today's hi-tech world those who do not wish to further there education are doomed to a more sparse existence than those that do !!(im going back and im an old man) we have to face facts and change with the times!! American labor has gotten really out of hand i don't think it would ever be feasible to buy 200 dollar shoes, or the like that it would cost if things were made here in the USA!! just look at whats happening in Detroit to see the mess we are in!! the planet is getting smaller every day so globalization ans outsourcing is a fact we have to deal with and adjust too!! regardless of our world views!! and no, if the cost of the medicated food for one on my many animals was to increase 100% to 200% he would die because unfortunately i could not afford to keep him alive at those costs!! when ever possible i do buy American and if the entire country agreed to cut off all foreign trade and be protectionist than maybe i would patriotically join in but you know that will never happen!! but as i say over and over things aren't that bad we have it pretty good so don't fret we will all be okay in the end (economically at least)
PS not to cast this barb at you but have you ever noticed that a bi-coastal smug liberal wouldnt be caught dead in a American made car??
By morgan lynn lamberth, February 14, 2007 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment
I should have stated PPI[Progressive Policy Institue, arm of centrist liberal Democratic Leadership Council.] What the study there states is that our our companies and laborers beat the cheap manufactures with tools.So, it is just the old story of innovation making for fewer jobs after all, not cheap labor itself.As always , new jobs open up elsewhere.That is where the Europeans do well: they have worker protections . Did cheap Japanese and Korean goods do us in? No, we were better at producing other goods- comparative advantage or we competed well with them .Their wages have gone up ! As far as college and tech, many just cannot handle them alright. Yes, they can do better otherwise ! What societal aid do others advocate for displaced workers ?
By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 14, 2007 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment
Jeff, it is obvious that we do not share the same world view-yes, everyone should have the best education possible, but not everyone as the academic ability to attend college. Not everyone is capable, thats just reality. The entire U.S. population will not attend college; those with academic limitations should not be inhibited from obtaining a good paying job.
Blue collar and manufacturing jobs, should not be arrogantly viewed as occupations not worthy of Americans, but only worthy of laborers in India, China and Indonesia. Historically these manufacturing jobs were unionized, paying excellent wages and providing good
Yes, times have changed, not to the benefit of American workers, times have changed because both Democrats and Republicans no longer represent the working-class, they only represent the corporatocracy-passing NAFTA and WTO and other such legislation, obliging multinationals who incessantly lobby politicians for favors.
We are all sick of hearing that third world populations are doing jobs that Americans wont do-that's another lie. Americans will take these jobs, but they want a decent wage and benefits. BTW, Jeff, thousands of white-collar computer positions are being outsourced-its called off-shore outsourcing.
So even if all Americans obtain a college degree, they are economically doomed, unless legislation is enacted to protect American employment—establishing tariffs, making it no longer quite so attractive to hire third world workers.
So maybe Americans need to cut-back on their consumption, buy fewer cheap items, and purchase items manufactured by American
By John Hanks, February 14, 2007 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment
The American people consists of three groups. There are the crooks,the suckers, and the lazy cowards. Lower middle class religions consist of crooks and suckers. The rest of the people (with authentic religion) consist of lazy cowards.
By John Hanks, February 14, 2007 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment
Lower middle class religion reflects the values of the lower middle class. It grovels before economic and political authority (just as it once defended slavery). It makes up lies and then believes them. It despises wisdom and learning. And ultimately it resorts to force and/or fraud to get its way. Jesus rightly despises them as blockheads and phonies. They are almost totally devoid of any genuine religious, moral, or honest impulse.
By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 14, 2007 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment
Check out the Center for Progress to see that out-sourcing is not the problem.Trade aids the poor. What we need is give the lay offs job retraining and interim incme as Europeans get.
By Jeff Badura, February 14, 2007 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment
Dear Eleanor and Anne!!
hello ladies i do enjoy your banter but lets be real ??
FYI- i am lower-lower middle class my 32,000/35,000 a yr is low for the urban area, i do live in, but i don't want to give to much info away, in case I'm looking for a job?? don't want a hateful so called lib to blackball me when they google my name? and see I'm a proud neo-con !!! so i cant tell you guys all? but I'm no christian i told you before, i don't go to church i don't even believe in a judging god, i think religion is one of the biggest problems the world faces but i have to be fair too!! just because I'm no christian bible thumper doesn't mean that Christians are on a par with the crazies in the middle east or with Nazis !! that's simply foolish ignorant talk !!
Eleanor your stats are way off !! you statement that our country had a 30% rate of workers in the USA earning poverty wage is just wrong !!! if that was the case it would show up in the streets and at the ballot box we have a steady 11% or 13% poverty rate just google poverty and after you weed through all the third world horrible real poverty! then you might find the US numbers and its about 11 to 13 % as far as economics are concerned I'm not apologizing for corporate greed in American, but times change ,its no longer profitable for America labor to be manufacturing goods that can be sold on the world market !! we have become a white collar nation we outsource our labor to the developing world !!! that's not going to change ladies and in the big picture that is progress for in the end it will improve the "real" poverty of the world in those countries !! walmart and the such are careers for only the handful of white collar management, the rest are entry level service jobs, and that's just the way it is !!! i have had many bad experiences with tyrannical bosses! I'm fully aware that corporations can be mean to there employee's, but this is a free country, if you don't like a job !! quit !! go to school, start a new career, move to a more prosperous area of the country (i did ) we live in a free capitalist society, not a socialist workers utopia that only exists in the mind or dreamers!! every time a nation has tried Marx's ideas it hasn't happened as planed !! with out the sin of greed, there is no progress!! our system works !! it really does !! we might cry about not having this or that, but the things we really need we have in abundance! we are are really rich in any historical context !! we have food, water, lodging, clothing,heat, medical (no one is turned away from the emergency room or the county health care facilities, so yes, we have medical too) history, is the only fair judge of our current society, for humans are inherently dissatisfied !! we live into our early 80's our biggest problem right now is obesity? and i think that says it all, our gluttony is our problem not the lack of goods !!! yes, the rich are getting richer,(so what) but the middle class has stayed roughly around the same, a kid getting out of high school today has to go to college and not the factory if he wants to succeed in life, but like i said times change!! so ladies, i say to both of you, go to walmart buy some flowers and smell the roses !!! living in the USA ain't as bad as you progressives make it out to be !! (glass half full vs half empty)
PS- say a prayer for George Bush, he needs your help and support to bomb Iran !!
By Anne, February 14, 2007 at 1:03 am Link to this comment
Hi Jeff, Long time no see,
By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 13, 2007 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment
Jeff is an expert on $10.00 per hour wage earners-Jeffs income is about $30,000 a
Perhaps youre involved with too many bible study groups; mythology is beginning to affect your judgment.
Its nice to know that your cat can find a cheap meal-but feeding your cat does not justify the exploitation of workers. CEOS are making more than 450 times the salary of an average
But our capitalist system has worked very well for all of us, you live in a country with the highest standards of living ever (last 60 yrs) in the history of mankind so it must be working!!
Jeff, you have assumed the role of apologist for multi-national corporations, who have no loyalty to any country; in fact globalization allows them to avoid taxes in the U.S. and in the country where they manufacture their junk.
The truth of the matter is that in the 'booming economy' of this, the richest country on earth, 30 percent of American workers earn poverty or near-poverty wages because the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation and we have lost millions of decent-paying manufacturing jobs. Low-wage American workers are now the lowest-paid in the industrialized world. In this nation of ''family values,'' more than 20 percent of our children live in poverty.
Jeff-take time off from reading the bible, and start to read non-fiction books about the economy—start with Nickel and Dimed, by Barbara Ehrenreich.
By Jeff Badura, February 13, 2007 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment
Mr Skruff did you read the next line in that comment?? i said some are going to point out dictator's we are dealing with to point out the supposed hypocrisy of the statement, and you did!! as i said Skruff one dictatorship one despot at a time !! some might say that dealing with China is opening them up from the inside (i don't always agree) and that economic freedoms will bring social freedoms, the point was, that Bush had made it, for the first time in our history due to the Neo-cons, the stated policy of the USA, that we would or should no longer be placating dictators at the guise of a false security!! that had never been said so like that before !! you guys can nit pick my words, and turn them around, cut and paste them like Micheal Moore, to your liking, but the facts are still the facts!! and no one is happy about having to deal with the Saudi's or China? but one thing at a time! Skruff look at the big picture !! would you have us do nothing? because we cant topple the government of China? so we should just give up, retreat from the world stage cause we cant change the whole planet tomorrow?? and pretend that Bush is the enemy? not despotism or Islamic extremist!! the logic of the left make no sense, its all complaint's, some valid and some not, but zero solution !! its so cool to dump on your country?? with no solutions for a better future!! just blame the USA for everything and oppose anything the government tries to do !!! that's the plan of the left !! and that's why you get no real traction or respect nationally !!
By Jeff Badura, February 13, 2007 at 10:14 am Link to this comment
FYI- at walmart medicated cat food cost 16 bucks !! at Main street pet store is 22 and they never have it in stock ??? if i had to rely on Main street my cat would die and or i would pay 33% more !! just so that our economy can stagnate !!
By Skruff, February 13, 2007 at 9:45 am Link to this comment
Comment #53105 by Jeff Badura on 2/12 at 9:20 am states:
"Sorry John, your point blank wrong, a neo-con is simply a new-conservative its from a change in our attitudes toward foreign affairs were we no longer support the tyrannical dictators of the planet"
You think?
What about China's dictator who has recieved Most Favorable trade status from three administrations (including the current one, although they no longer call it MFN)?
What about Pakistan's dictator who is ourr new best friend, even though his countrymen likely harbor Osama Bin Laden?
How about our cozy relationship with the House of Saud, the Kuaiti Emirate, and our former enemy in Lybia?
No, I believe the difference is now we support dictators for economic benefit, rather then political idology.
By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 12, 2007 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment
second Wal-Mart does hurt Main St. yes, I will agree, but have you tired to shop on Main st ??? they have lots to be desired, and the prices are too high, and the stock is too low, and the hours are worse than banking hours !!! so Wal-Mart might not offer good health insurance ( a much bigger problem than just Wal-Mart- you can blame the retiring baby-boomers for sky rocketing health costs) but Wal-Mart doe save me 20 to 50 bucks a week on everything from clothing to cat food !! I know international mega corporations are frowned upon by the socialist left, but Im sorry to say its called progress !!! the super grocery stores, the home depots, and the rest bring down costs and give much better service than Main street !!! times change, things change, you have to be flexible in the global marketplace or you fail? its thats simple !!! its called capitalism !!! if your already angry at the notion of capitalism? youre going to hate Wal-Mart, and the such, but so be it !!
The fact that Jeff, can buy a few cheap shmattehs each weak, is all that is needed for him to formulate his economic assessment of multi-national corporations.
As far as Jeff is concerned, the entire U.S. can look like one giant mall inundated with super-stores, filled with cheap merchandise manufactured in China and Indonesia, sold by workers earning 10 dollars per hour and purchased by workers who are nothing more than indentured servants.
So the great plan of globalization is not to up uplift the workers in third world countries, it is only to make workers in the U.S. more like wage slaves in China, India, and Africa-but according to Jeff thats ok, because thats our future and we need to be flexible.
So the next time you hear capitalists, the Christian Right, or your local politicians talk about globalization, and how it benefits the American middle-class, you will know that they are nothing more than TRAITORS who are undermining the workers of the U.S.
By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 5:03 pm Link to this comment
Anne, i said popular music amongst other things, we saturate the globe with our culture and that is "one" of the handful of reasons we are hated !! all other countries measure there success on a scale were the USA on top so you get envy and hate cause were on top!! then the french and others will say "we like Americans we just don't like Bush!!!" that's just a line to hide their bigotry!! sure they don't like Bush too!!!! but to be honest if we have a president that's loved world wide and by the likes of french he wont be looking out for our best interests!!
By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment
hello again!!
those words are the words of a modern Neo-con!! that says it all, right there !! thats what a neo-con believes in !!! freedom and liberty for all!! even for you John !! freedom to call us Nazi's !!!
By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
orginal Neo-cons types were men like Pres. W.Wilson!! they just didn't name them as such at the times, he was pro-active, he started the league of nations, and tried to promote democracy worldwide after the Great War (WW I)with his 14 points? well ahead of his time, http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/14points.htmand a Neo-con type of statement from Bill Clinton, while signing the Iraq Liberation Act on October 31, 1998, Clinton said: It should be the policy of the US to seek to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime . This law was ratified by both houses of congress, in, I will say again because it begs repeating, 1998!
By morgan-lynn lamberth, February 12, 2007 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment
Even Orthodox Jewry do not call for stoning and some other commandments to enforce themselves !One hopes the author and Harris will make in roads on getting others warned about these evil-minded folk. As Sydney Hook warned against the communists, it is the perversion of tolerance to let such people get their way !Their god ,Yahweh, is such an evil god !
By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 11:32 am Link to this comment
PS - i sleep very well at night, knowing I'm doing all i can (very little in the big picture) to preserve democracy for you and your friends so your children can live in this wonderful culture long after we are gone !!! we owe that to them, and those that gave there lives before, so we could have it so good !!! freedom is not always free, its paid for by the blood of our dead hero's !! deposing Saddam and soon to be the Mullahs of Iran and changing the hate filled middle east for the good of mankind puts necessary blood on all our hands!! so i dont lose sleep!! doing nothing like the left wishes, is what caused 9/11!! and that's were you need to look for blame !! the PC wonder land left: who's political views are come by their wishful thoughts, instead of by the hard ugly truth of reality !!
By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 10:20 am Link to this comment
john hanks- Neoconism: A subversive political movement that believes that a Nazi or Fascist end justifies the means which include subversion and terrorism.
Sorry John, your point blank wrong, a neo-con is simply a new-conservative its from a change in our attitudes toward foreign affairs were we no longer support the tyrannical dictators of the planet, in the guise of a false security !!! I know many are going to point out some despot we are buying oil from, or we are not apposing at the minute to point out the hypocrisy in my statements, but keep in mind things take time, one country one despot at a time!! Neocons believe in the spreading of freedom, spreading pluralistic democracies as our stated national policy!!
how you can equate that with fascism is beyond me, for fascism loathes freedom ! ??? again you make my case in my previous arguments !!
By c, February 11, 2007 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment
A side note on the "Jesus Camp" documentary. You can view it, full length on "Youtube.com". Again, the fundie children in this movie are indoctrinated to commit their loyalty to a "war" against non-christians. One boy is interview who says, "When I walk down the street and run into a non-christian, I know it immediatly; it makes me feel icky, yuckie…" These children are taught to be repulsed at non-christians! Does this worry any of you, because it creeps me out! They take one look at people, as if they are street smart, and sit in judgement others; no wonder they feel "icky"! Imagine having to judge everyone you meet on the basis of their religious affiliation.
By Jeff Badura, February 11, 2007 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment
Patryk you said "I attacked your spelling solely because this is an argument where intelligence and sanity (something spelling can indeed represent), are in question…. . I see my prior argument as on-topic, and not a random attack of character as you defended it to be.
By Anne, February 10, 2007 at 11:56 pm Link to this comment
Hey Jeff—
By Anne, February 10, 2007 at 8:13 pm Link to this comment
Dear Jeff:
By Jeff Badura, February 10, 2007 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment
hello All !!!
Anne, Bush was slow to get off the pot, when he took office in 2000, first we had the election debacle that took about 3 months away from him getting his team settled then being that Clinton was a Dem, and Bush was in the GOP the whole higher bureaucracy was changed over, so for the fist 9 months of Bush's presidency he wasn't as focused on Bin Laden as he should have been !!! but Clinton had 8 yrs not 8 months we were attacked 9 times in his presidency !! he did very little to combat international terrorism, as the left wishes, and he kept the facts away from the American people in order to diminish the threat, so that the political question of action would not come up !! I'm not going to say he was a bad person, but i will say he was very wrong, and i believe history will bear that all out, after the 92 World Trade center attack on our soil the mission should have gone into overdrive and into the hands of the military but it did not !! when the Iranians were implicated in the Kolbar Towers attacks he kept it secret as not to have to deal with Iran !!! secretly fretting over terror then warning your replacements is not enough in my eyes !! Clinton should have used the bully pulpit to warn the American people of the threats we faced!! and he should have fought against the terrorist !! Bush after his slow 9 month start is now trying to do what has to be done and the left hates him for it (Iraq)!! so i don't believe I'm being bi-polar!!
By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 10, 2007 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment
Atheists, according to a Christian poll have slightly fewer divorses than conservative Christians. There are proportionatley fewer atheists in prisons.There is no real moral differences between groups.And Christians love pre-marital sex as much as others.Morality depends not on the sensibilities- subjectivism - of the men of yore , not God ,who wrote scriptures.We have a better moral sense since ancient times.It is the use of reason and real facts, that of humanist morality, in search of what is good or bad for humans , other animals and the enviornment.We do what is right from our consciences, not from the puerile fear of the Lord!We do not need religious quacks telling us what to do! I accept the Nanny State in her going after what is objectively wrong. It is objectively wrong to smoke against others; it is not wrong to read pornorgraphy .
By John Hanks, February 10, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment
My working definitions:
Fascism: Rule by an elite composed of media, government, corporations, military, etc. (Corporations frame the issues.)
Nazism: Rule be an elite devoted to terrorism at home and conquest abroad.
Fundanazism: The belief that a Nazi regime exists as an expression of a skygod's will.
Neoconism: A subversive political movement that believes that a Nazi or Fascist end justifies the means which include subversion and terrorism.
By Anne, February 9, 2007 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment
This is for Chris, who commented on 1/31:
By Anne, February 9, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
Hello Again Jeff:
PS: I won't even mention the seven full minutes Bush spent sitting in a classroom wetting his pants while this country was under attack.
By Patryk, February 9, 2007 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment
Well, the thing is, I had been reading other arguments against you, and your responses (or lack there of). I then figured that since you seemed to dodge directly addressing a point made against you, I would try going at it a different angle (though you have been beginning to respond validly now).
By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 10:57 am Link to this comment
Eleanore a point of history, first we were fighting American Indians along with French colonization of North America then Mother England then Islamic pirates / city states then England again, then Mexico then ourselves in a bloody Civil War then the Spanish then we oppressed the Philippines then we fought Mexican bandits all the while still commiting genocide on the American Indians, me moved on to fighting the Central Powers of WW I the whole time fighting small shooting wars in Central and South America then the Fascists of WW II then the Cold War and now Islamic Extremism !!!
By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 8:52 am Link to this comment
Anne when a portion of the populace is demonized by another portion than i call it class warfare !! that might be a harsh word to describe it but the libs and the Dem's, when all else fails, love to beat up on the rich (I'm not one of those rich) so what would you call it ???
By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 8:35 am Link to this comment
Eleanore, yes your right about the map comment i was just pointing out that there is a huge portion of our populace who don't care about history or geography or politics !! and those are the ones who don't vote !! i know its unpleasant to think about a decades long war with Islamic extremist so the libs like to compare them with christian zealots to diminish the terror threat, henceforth there reason for inaction, but dear Eleanore, i might not be able to spell, but i know geo-politics? and the predicament we are all in, in the middle east with radical Islam: a hateful death/suicide worship movement, and the nexus of WMD's is a nightmare scenario !! theses crazies believe if they die as martyrs all there sins are forgive and they go to paradise with 72 virgins ?? they really believe this stuff !! sure American Christians want to display the 10 commandment at the courthouse, but the Islamic extremists believe its there duty to kill you, and me, because we are infidels !! we are the great Satan !! Mohammad was a warrior, Jihad is a pillar of the faith, ignoring them or pussy footing around them as Clinton did, only emboldens them, and it gives us tragedies like 9/11!! with WMD's the next attack could be 1000 times worse !!! so even though its an unpleasant thought, to think about wars for the next 20 yrs in Iraq in Iran in Packston or were ever, it has to be done, and will be done !!
Patryk, you got me !! I'm grammatically challenged !! so that makes you so much smarter than me cause you can spell better ?? is that's your whole argument ??? gee, how profound ?? just more smugness and elitism!! do you make fun of people's accents or clothing too ??? that's real progressive !!
By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 8:33 am Link to this comment
Skruff asked Q- Why is Osama still hiding by crossing the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, A-well we think he is there,and probably is ?? but Northeastern Pakistan is no man's land it has no government, we would need to put five hundred thousand troops on the ground, minimum, to properly comb the entire region, and still might miss some spots, 140 million out of the 160 million population would rise up against us, it would be ugly !! I'm all for it, But even the Republicans in today's political environment got a yellow streak down there spine (the Dem's are much worse) i might have mentioned this before, Bush should have declared war on the terror states and international terror right after 9/11 and then called up a draft and build a 30 million man army and mobilize the populace just as we did after Pearl Harbor, but he blew it !! we need a much bigger army, so going into Pakistan even though i would be all for it, it is undo-able right now with our current military, even if we never went into Iraq, we still wouldn't have the troops we needed to go through those mountains, a little unknown fact by most, our primary mode of troop transportation, the helicopter, does not work well in very high cold altitudes !! another problem to consider, one of the reasons we screwed up in Torah Bora?? You wont hear me say Bush is a perfect president. but Kerry or Gore would be doing even less to combat the bad guys,
By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 8, 2007 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment
Its much bigger than Bin Laden, comparing Islamic extremism to Republican ideology or Christian Fundamentalism is intellectually dishonest.
Christianity has morphed into a PROSPERITY GOSPEL worshiping financial success as a manifestation of Gods blessings. If one is not wealthy, then they have not been blessed, they must be lazy, or flawed-so, as a result, only the most wealthy capitalist Christians are truly blessed by God-this new version of Christianity as turned Jesus into a businessman, resulting in a religious crusade to democratize the Middle East using a strange synthesis of Zionism and prosperity gospel doctrine-or it may, just be a new up-dated version of Manifest Destiny.
By Anne, February 8, 2007 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment
Hi Jeff-
By Skruff, February 8, 2007 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment
Comment #52433 by Jeff Badura on 2/08 at 7:40 am says:
"Skruff we have backed the dictators, we have propped them up with are oil money…"
Funny you use the passed tense as if we are not doing the same thing today. What made Saddam evit, and Pervez Musharraf our friend? Why is Osama still hiding by crossing the border between Afganistan and Pakistan http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21124302-25377,00.html
AND we didn't "prop up Saddam" with "oil money" We gave him the gas he used to kill kurds.
Of course we knew he had weapons… we have the reciepts!
By Patryk, February 8, 2007 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment
Jeff, you say sitting here watching these arguments makes you happy because it reassures you that you are on the right side. I agree. You said it is so comforting to see us "libs" (by the way, you're so cool for abbreviating it) say stupid things, because you take comfort in knowing that you oppose them? I feel the exact same way, except I'm a democrat. I see well-spoken people on my side, delivering well thought out points, and even citing their sources for Christ's sake. Meanwhile, you babble on, confusing "your" with "you're", "there" with "they're" and "their", "where" with "were", "to" with "too", and other ELEMENTARY mistakes. Everyone makes typos, everyone. I totally get that, and I am not one to nit-pick. But seeing these, repeated over and OVER, really makes me happy, because I know, that is the type of person that disagrees with me.(Not saying that all Republicans are this mal educated… just Jeff.). Anyway just wondering if you had anything to say for yourself, or if you would just ignore my argument and disacknowledge facts like you do so often.
By cultcounselor, February 8, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment
Amos Hart…
The documentary "Jesus Camp" is all about fundementalist christians teaching their children to wage war on americans and to be ready to "die" in battle for the ultimate Jesus-fest. Isn't this movie evidence? What was your sentence "...For proof, you need only look at modern culture"?
Pat Robertson endorses the video game "Left Behind" that pits christian soliders against everybody who isn't christian by killing them off in NYC. What was that you said, "Pat Robertson ONLY promotes christian values"??
So, THIS is how the fundementalist christians intend to (what was that you said)...
Come on now Amos, are you in denial? Do you teach your children to hate non-christians and teach them how to wage war as a way to stop non-christian americans, who you believe live in "debachery and depravity"?
By John, February 8, 2007 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment
The problem with the world today is that everyone wants to play God. We need to remember that we are the created not the Creator and that the world needs to repent and turn to Jesus for forgiveness of sins. Yes some do use the word of God as a way to manipulate and decieve others and they will recieve their reward in full. I am a born again Christain and the Lord Jesus healed me from alcohol and drug addiction, he set me free. I grow each day with his living and breathing word. I think we all need to read the word of God and bring healing to the word faith so that we can all learn to love as Jesus showed us by the power of his love by offering his life for the lives of the world. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son. Who ever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Friends and Christain brothers and sisters lets all pray for our enemies and proclaim the Good news of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Godbless you all <><
By John, February 8, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
Hi everyone, I'm a Christain and I believe that everyone should calm down a little and remember what the Lord Jesus Christ told us Mathhew 24 There will be wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that we are not alarmed, these things must happen. One thing we can take real comfort in is the fact Our Lord Jesus Christ is our Saviour and one day he will return and we will live with him in peace and love.
May the Lord bless you all and fill your hearts with his love.
By Jeff Badura, February 8, 2007 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment
John Hanks your last statement says volumes ?? but what is enough ?? that's the question, and to Ann i thought i said 3 out of the last 4 but if not, i miss spoke, for no i didn't vote for any of the winners in Nov. as far as laughing at the comments just reads through them yourself, many, not all, but many are pure hate and intolerance !! i live in a very blue state and i see lots of so called progressive intolerance and hate and i read a lot of it here too !! many directed at the christian on the posing here ??? so that's why i laugh and feel reassured with my stance on the issues for the enlightened so called progressives are often anything but (redundant), the glass half full have empty type of thing, libs complain about the sunshine its in there nature !! and those who do not, are passed off as jingoistic fools !!
By Jenny, February 8, 2007 at 11:44 am Link to this comment
Just finished reading—War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning.
Thanks for articulating what I instinctually know.
I have enough spirituality to reason- that this is all according to plan so as not to kick myself too much.
Question: You write well enough to generate discussion of critical issues; do you see any leaders around to fill the void in a positive turn the tide way? Someone charismatic enough to stir us into nonviolent effective love fueled action?
By Jeff Badura, February 8, 2007 at 8:40 am Link to this comment
Anne, yes Hitler was a loose allied of japan but we went to war with fascism in WW II we didn't pick and choose or split hairs !! the main reason (other than bigoted racial hatred) for our problems with the extremists in the middle east is because yes Skruff we have backed the dictators, we have propped them up with are oil money and many in this format and this site mention that fact repeatedly !! they are correct so what do we do about it ??? continue more of the same ??? no !! we went after Saddam because after 9/11 we saw our policy was flawed the Clinton policy of do nothing ever endless diplomacy outsourcing our national defense to the UN, giving France a veto on our actions, and going about the troubles we face in a law enforcement way, gave us 9/11 and the next attack down the road would only be worse !! it was a fair conclusion to make that there would be no peace in the region as long as Saddam was in power so after repeatedly violated the treaty to end the first Gulf War and had 16 UN resolutions against him "we" as nation decided he had to go, and for all you hand wringing doom and gloomers to be honest no matter what diplomatic bull-stuff our government says in public Iran is next !! and its not so that haliburton can make money its not because Bush has a stiffy or cause hes a cowboy its because it in the USA and the worlds best long term interest to change the climate of hate that is now the middle east !! if we don't then 9/11 will look like a cake walk compared to to next attack !! its much bigger than Bin Ladden, comparing Islamic extremism to Republican ideology or christian Fundamentalism is intellectually dishonest, and don't quote some 400 yr old history of christian brutality cause you only make my point !! would you give the Holy Roman Empire of 1000 ad nukes ??? that's the mentality we face in the extremist side in the middle east !! you libs are opposed to any war all war and that's noble it really is but it is not practical and hating your own government worse than the real enemy is also suicidal !!
By John Hanks, February 8, 2007 at 8:08 am Link to this comment
Does anyone realize that wealth (beyond reasonable amounts) is actually a burden like eating too much sugar. Although I feel mostly contempt for rich people with lower middle class values, I sometimes feel sympathy for them just like I would for a child about to pull the pin on a hand grenade.
If I won a lottery I would give most of the money to some form of legal aid for the poor, so they could challenge our rotten institutions in court, without resorting to a pistol. Even on my skimpy retirement, I find money to be a burden, so I give plenty away when I can, hopefully without getting scammed too badly.
By Anna, February 8, 2007 at 6:25 am Link to this comment
Hi Jeff,
By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 7, 2007 at 5:27 pm Link to this comment
Yes, lets do talk about reality. The popular vote is irrelevant by law.
It would be nice to believe that we are NOT living in a Banana Republic, and we still have some semblance of a representative
It would be beneficial to both parties to ensure that all elections are carried out legitimately. Its kind of odd to try to build democracy around the world, and then hold illegal elections in your own country.
Secondly, We can talk about Christianists on the March but, what inspires this movement is the economic disgust that the poor white working-class feel towards the U.S. economy-Jeff these are the folks that are not benefiting from Bushs booming capitalist economy-yes, there is class envy, they are envious of the illegal immigrants that have taken their jobs and are obtaining benefits that they no longer get.
They are fed up with the corruption in this government-they want to know what happened to the billions of dollars missing in Iraq and why we are rebuilding that country with billions of tax dollars, when their own children do not have healthcare. They are angry that this President talks about terrorism in the Middle East, but fails to secure the borders of the U.S.
They are appalled that their sons and daughters who enlisted in this all-voluntary military are having to pay for veterans healthcare. They are aghast that mercenary forces fighting along side enlisted men are making over 100,000 dollars a year.
They are sickened by globalization which has seized their good paying union jobs and replaced them with minimum wage jobs with no future or job security.
So all you wealthy, privileged Republicans wake-up there, are 50 million disenfranchised citizens that despise this political system and think all politicians are corrupt parasites-so these are the political circumstances that are ripe for any ideology to incite unite, and fuel a movement-religious ideology is just convenient.
By Jeff Badura, February 7, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment
point of view of a neo-con !!
Mr.John Hanks,
By Skruff, February 7, 2007 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment
Saddam used WMDs on the Iranian and Kurds so to say he didnt have them is fantasy !! he just didnt have them when we invaded !! or we havent found them yet ?? i say we should look in Syria ???
Of course he had them… Reagan gave them to him…. AND the Kurds are a pain in the ass.. Ask our friends tthe Turks. When Saddam used his "WMD's" on the Iranians he had our blessing. When he used them on the Kurds he had our sympathy
By Anna, February 7, 2007 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment
Hi All-
By John Hanks, February 7, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment
Lower middle class education leaves people dumb enough to have opinions, but not courageous enough to test them.
Rich traitor trash with lower middle class values promote nothing but a host of evils, from education as indoctrination to religion as idol worship.
There is no difference between Islam-Fascism and Republican Fascism. They are both vicious and subversive whether they have a lot of money or not. If Jesus met the "Christians" in this country, he would instantly see them to be the bone heads and phonies that they are. I like to think that he might reach for a revolver.
By Skruff, February 7, 2007 at 8:34 am Link to this comment
Comment #52050 by Crissa on 2/06 at 2:19 pm
The mounting despair rippling across the United States, one I witnessed repeatedly as I traveled the country, remains unaddressed by the Democratic Party, which has abandoned the working class, like its Republican counterpart, for massive corporate funding.
This is a falshood.
Please retract the statement or find support for it.
So what's false?
By Jeff Badura, February 7, 2007 at 7:40 am Link to this comment
view from a neo-con
Skruff -yes the KKK hide behind Christianity but you cant paint all Christians with that brush ?? come on guys ??
Crissa- you are right on target !!! the article was full of batten falsehoods, the far let socialist's always piss and moan of the terrible economic plight of the masses and its pure fantasy !! it helps drive their hate of capitalism! a capitalism, that has given us Americans in the late 20th century a standard of living unequaled by anyone in the long history of mankind !! there favorite line "the rich are getting richer" a purely bigoted class warfare statement that points out their hate for others success !!
and my friendd Eleanore, sorry, didn't mean to change the subject on you ??? Q- how can fair minded people advocate the killing of the unborn child and call it "women's rights" ?? sounds allot like Southern Civil War talk "States Rights" when speaking of slavery ???
as far a the war on Islamic extremists goes, remember 9/11 !!! that's was no invention !! no Saddam was not directly to blame for 9/11 but we don't live in a vacuum the middle east is a cauldron of hate and Saddam was right in the middle of it !!! Hitler didn't attack us at Pearl Harbor nor did Italy or Romania but we went to war with all !!
Saddam used WMD's on the Iranian and Kurds so to say he didn't have them is fantasy !! he just didn't have them when we invaded !! or we haven't found them yet ?? i say we should look in Syria ???
and yes I'm going to really ruin your day!! the bombing of Iran is right around the corner, and say "good" !!!
by the way ?? you guys think Bush is gung-ho ??? wait till McCain is your Commander and Chief, cause y'all ain't see nuttin yet !! ha ha ha ha ha
By Anna, February 6, 2007 at 9:55 pm Link to this comment
I would like to ask, to those who are in such support of the religious-based legislation in our government today, how you can defend attitudes of such entitlement and such intolerance? We live in a country that was founded on religious freedom, the seperation of church and state. Despite these rights to freedom, those leading the strong, right-winged religious movement, act as though it is both their right and moreover their obligation to decide what is morally acceptable for the masses,(ie: gay marriages, abortion, etc). A similar ideology has been practiced before, and was known as the "White Man's Burden". We read about it now in history books and are mortifed, but don't realize that it is going on right in front of us, in over 90% of the country. If you want to live in a religious state, instead of forcing regression, go move to Iran.
By roxie, February 6, 2007 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment
By D L, February 6, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment
Jnagarva #50798 wrote David Barton is a fraud, and has admitted it. Please cite reference to this amazing revelation! Somehow, I think Mr. Baron is unaware of it.
By AMOS_HART, February 6, 2007 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment
Hedges cites a grand total of ONE person by name in his paranoid diatribe and NO pertinent references. Do we just take his word for it, as from GOD himself, or are we entitled to an occasional verifiable fact? He talks about "mounting despair rippling across the United States," "fantastic visions of angels and miracles," the Christian right "calling for a Christian State," "a dark license to kill..those at home who refuse to submit to the movement," etc. These charges, like reports of UFO's, should be presumed false until supported with convincing evidence specifying the who, what, where, and when of responsible journalism. Pat Robertson is a patriot who has NEVER called for a CHANGE in our republican form of government - he DOES NOT advocate theonomy. He does promote Christian values and beliefs, as is his constitutional right, just as it is Hedges' right to promote a Marxist view of human nature and aspirations. I suggest that religious views play a markedly less important role in American life today than they did two-hundred or even a hundred years ago. For proof, you need only look at modern culture. What is openly tolerated today was simply not allowed as a matter of law, e.g., abortion, pornography, homosexuality. Far from advocating a "Christian state," the "Christian right" simply wishes to stop the headlong plunge into debauchery and depravity that we have seen over the past 50 years. And they wish to do it democratically, i.e., by the ballot box and by exercise of their constitutional rights to free speech. Hedges polemic is as far off the mark as it is a case of lousy journalism. He should know better. Shame on him
By cultcounselor, February 6, 2007 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment
The great Nazi of propagana Goebbels, said…
"There are two ways to make a revolution: One can fire at the opponent with machine guns until he recognizes the superiority of those who have the guns. That is the simiplist way. One can also transform a nation through a revolution of the spirit, not destroying the opponent, but, winning him over. We National Socialist have gone the second way and will continue on it. Our first task in this minsitry will be to win the whole people for the new state. We want to replace liberal thinking with a sence of community that includes the whole people".
Replace liberal thinking with a sence of community
And what is the definition of a liberal thinker?
And the Fundementalist Right has no agenda to remove/replace liberals, secularist, gays to dismantle the constitution, the courts, gut laws replacing all with their own version of biblical law? It seems to me that I hear Fundies consistantly use words and catch-phrases that indicate the opposite, such as cultural war, war on morality, war on christmas, and other assorted terms of battle hurled all who do not agree with their beliefs. Sounds as if they mean to destroy their opponents (liberals) by declaring war via some "spiritual battle" if they can't convert them ...sounds Goebbelish to me'...walks like a duck, talks like a duck and it's being floated in our media to see if it will float like a duck.
By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 6, 2007 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment
"as far as Bush stealing the elections ?? this is a perfect example of progressives inability to face facts!! Gore challenged the results in the court they recounted the votes more than once but that wasnt enough he wanted endless recounts until the results favored him and the Supreme Court put an end to it !!
His tiny 500-vote win there was accompanied by a torrent of hanging chads and unhappy voters, who claimed their votes, were stolen. http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/0312/031212.htm
Its interesting that I am discussing womens rights and you bring up the war on terror and conspiracy theorists-this is so typical. One thing that we can say about the Right, is their skill at propaganda-it has really improved, they know how to change the subject, use illogical reasoning, and if all else fails character assassination.
The Right Wing always has a new enemy to destroy and a military to expand, first the imaginary WMDS in Iraq and now the nuclear threat of Iran.
First, claim that Saddam is "linked" to terrorists (whatever "linked" actually means is not important.) Also claim that terrorists are responsible for the September 11 attacks. What's the implied-but-unstated conclusion drawn from these two claims? That Saddam Hussein is responsible for September 11, of course! http://www.iranian.com/Mohammadi/2004/September/Report/index.html
Actually the Right Wing ideologues live in the world of Oz, and their Wizard is nothing but an old fat Cheney creeping around the White House.
By Crissa, February 6, 2007 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment
The mounting despair rippling across the United States, one I witnessed repeatedly as I traveled the country, remains unaddressed by the Democratic Party, which has abandoned the working class, like its Republican counterpart, for massive corporate funding.
This is a falshood.
Please retract the statement or find support for it.
By Skruff, February 6, 2007 at 11:27 am Link to this comment
Comment #51918 by Jeff Badura on 2/06 at 6:38 am says:
look i dont always agree with the christian right but there not Nazis or anything close to them !!
In the name of Jesus they tortured and murdered Jews, Blacks, and immigrants.
Although the KKK is but a tepid image of its former legion, there are still several thousand self-identified Klansmen remaining. Mostly located in the deep South, but also some in the old rust-belt cities of the northeast.
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Can you recommend some decent headphones? I'm looking to spend maybe up to £150. Advice or recommendations gratefully accepted.
I use Sony 7509 HD, they sound fine to me
A lot of tipps tehre…
Ho there! We suggest AKG K701. Incredibile quality!
My current one's are Sony – I like them, there are about 15 years old and are now falling apart! I was thinking about Sennheiser HD 25 SP's – anyone used them? Thanks for your quick reply and thanks for the collections problem for me – happily fixed on that!
Beyerdynamic DT 770 is definitely your choice. It fits your budget. These are perfect soundrecording monitor headphones. As classic as a tuxedo, or a Cheesburger at McDonalds They have very plain and crystal sound – excellent for monitoring your tracks. More info you can easily google. There are two versions – 80 Ohm and 250 Ohm impendance. 250 Ohm version can play very quietly on some soundcards – still, many professional soundcards are strong enough.
Thankyou all and tahnkyou Mattsteiner for the forwarded thread – very useful!
I have sennheiser hd280 pro and px 200-II
They are more expensive than the price range you listed, but i strongly suggest checking out the Sennheiser HD650, they are an investment that will last you for many many years.
The AKG K701 is on my list to buy. They seem to have nothing but great reviews. And also the Sony headphones recommended in the first reply.
Whatever you decide to go with, just make sure they're relatively flat sounding. It won't help to use something with say a "hyped" bass or something that somehow 'sweetens' the sound. That probably goes without saying here, but figured I'd better mention it before someone recommends Beats by Dre or something…