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Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
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Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
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Silver Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 374
Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
I just finished building an annealer and got a chance to use it yesterday. After a conversation today about it's use actually helping the accuracy potential of a gun, I decided to undertake a test tonight.
I have a gun whose case is based on the 416 Rigby. It is shortened considerably. The 416's body is formed down to become the shoulder and neck of my case. About .800 is cut off. The hardness of that brass down at the body is greater than the neck of the parent case. I wanted to know how hard MY necks were as compared to the factory necks and if there was any difference in the 2, what could be done to replicate the factory results. Also, My theory on annealing necks seems to be considerably different than the opinions of 99% of people, so I thought I'd share what MY findings are on the subject.
For the most part, I have tried to make the test data/conditions consistant. For lack of forsight a year ago, I cannot use 100% consistant cases. An additional test some time in the future could complete the test with 100% accuracy, but, that's for later.
I have brand new cases that have never been fired. I have a couple of the pieces that were cut off the necks of the brand new cases. I cut up a piece of brass that has been fired at least 10 times, perhaps more. I have not kept track of the firings because I figures that these brass were scrap anyhow, in hindsight, they may work well. I have no use for # of firings so when they die, I will throw them out.
Now, in addition to those 2 cases I have a case from my old barrel that very closely resembles the new, It has been fired 45+ times (and was primed for another go). This also got cut up.
I started by taking the standard that comes with the tester and checking it. It Rockwelled at B72.5 the markings on it say it should be 73 +- 1.0 OK, Im happy with the tester.
I started with the neck that was cut off the new case, obviously never fired. (pulled out of the chip pan in the lathe) It rockwelled at 40.0 twice. The neck from my 10 times fired case that was just run through my annealer came up with readings of 35, 29.5, 30, 26, 30. Some of the error can be attributed to the shape of the part in the tester. Putting a potato chip on the anvil, getting it to sit flat and getting the penetrator to start properly is difficult. In any case, one could say My new necks are considerably softer than the factory ones.
The case neck from the 45 times fired case gave readings of 46.5, 44, 50, 45.5. Now, I cannot say for sure when the last time was that that piece of brass was annealed, but, when it DID get annealed, it spent a LOT more time in the torch than my new ones. It is a good case for work hardening being a reality. This piece of brass was also from a different lot than the others tested and as I pointed out above, sorry I didn't get them all from the same lot. I would make an educated guess that this brass is VERY similar to the brass I have now, but, that's just a guess.
Also, keep in mind that as I was testting, I would move the part so as to show the range as I went around the neck. I can only get readings about every .100 anyhow, since the metal is distorted after testing. In general, throughout the entire time, readings seemed to repeat in certain areas of the brass leading me to beleive that change is not only from my part being shaped in such a way as to be difficult to test, but also from very real changes in hardness. What the changes relate to, I cannot say at this time. I would guess, thickness of the brass being inconsistant, and causing changes in temperature when in front of a torch is a good place to start.
The body's of the cases were as you would guess, much harder.
The unfired body
On to the bodys. Now these are a lot easier to get in the tester and get good readings off of. First, they're a lot bigger, so there's more to test.
The Unfired case, measured 84, 84, then a different piece from the other side of the case measured 86, 86. Ok, I'll buy that its about 85.
The 10 times fired case, measured 88, 87, 78 (possible a bad reading because of the set) 84, 85. Not much change if any. Pretty interesting. I would have thought that it would also work harden much like a piece of steel that got forged. Increase in density and decrease in volume. Not apparently so. Not at least in any great amount.
The 45 times fired brass, admitedly, from another lot, measured 87, 87, 87, 87. Well, about 87.
Now, I don't know how hard brass gets on the B scale. Marine stuff is MUCH harder than the softy crap we deal with.
If I had to make a conclusion, I would say that through time, pretty darn little changes. Now, this is not a test of how mallable the material is, simply it's hardness. Perhaps some crazed metalurgist out here can add something that would be heplful or continue the testing.
My current annealing process is done with a dual motor, microprocessor controled gizmo. A stepper motor moves another spin motor into a flame , spins the case and removes it after a period of time. I DO NOT quench the cases and the case spends LESS THAN 2 seconds in the flame. I'm not sure exactly ho long it is, if someone want's to know to the 1000th of a second, I can check the program in the simulator but suffice to say , the case gets NO WHERE NEAR red hot. And, it goes from roughly 85 rockwell, to 35. I take these cases out of the annealer with my fingers immediately after being torched and put the next one in. The total process takes less than 5 seconds. My skin on my 2 fingertips did get a little hard, but never burnt. That was after doing 30 cases. No big deal. I just grabbed down as near the base as I could. After the annealing process, there is absolutely no discoloration of the brass whatsoever. The only thing that can be seen is where fingerprints were not properly wiped off the case before heating it. They show up and need removed with some nevr-dull. Otherwise, they come out as pretty as they went in.
Determining if this means anything is left up to the reader [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
If you have something that you disassemble and reassemble enough times, sooner or later, you'll have two!
Silver Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 374
Re: Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
As an additional test of the annealing time, I just took the same piece of brass that had not been fired (the one from the body that measured 84 or 86, I can't remember which was which, and annealed it.
I counted 1000 1, 1000 2 and removed it from the flame. Left it air cool till I could hold it in my fingers and tested it. It rockwelled 35 and 33. pretty soft for 2 seconds, huh. And, it measures .030 in thickness. So it's about 2.5 times as thick as anyones case necks, 3 times thicker than mine.
If you have something that you disassemble and reassemble enough times, sooner or later, you'll have two!
Bronze Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whittemore, MI
Posts: 37
Re: Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
It's been a lot of years since I worked with Rockwell (used to calibrate them), but I seem to remember that the thickness needs to be around 5 times the diameter of the indent in-order to avoid reading errors caused by the anvil (punch through).
You can drop to the 60Kg level "F" scale or increase the ball size to 1/8 "E" scale or both 60Kg and 1/8 ball "H" scale to eliminate the punch thru error.
I'm assuming your using a 1/4 anvil, with the inside of the radius facing up.
BTW, intresting test and thanks for shairing the results.
Platinum Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Palmer, Alaska
Posts: 2,539
Re: Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
RC 80? Isn't that harder than a typical reciever or bolt? Isn't that impossible, even though it does seem to give a relative reading?
Brent Moffitt
Steve Shelp
Silver Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: NC
Posts: 352
Re: Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
I beleive he stated he is using the Rockwell B scale as compared to the C scale which is used for the materials that actions and bolts are made out of.
Could you describe possibly how intense your flame is and what your source of gas is for it? I find it interesting that 2 seconds or 1 1000, 2 1000 anneals that much. For my 338 Lapua cases with my setup using a Burnz-o-matic I normally count 1 1000 -> 10 1000 to get what I consider a good anneal and the "needle" of the blue flame would stop right at the centerline of the case when the torch's brass nozzle has about 1/8" clearance between it and the case body. My smaller 6.5 cases normaly take 6 secs.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying your wrong or anything. Simply trying to compare your results with what I've been doing time/temp wise and the only difference is the intensity of the flame used I would guess. I spin my cases also, so the heat is evenly distributed around the circumference.
I've been thinking of "turning up the wick" sort of speaking during my annealing process to heat the neck/shoulder faster and not leave it in the flame for so long and you sort of backed up my thinking. Would appreciate your comments.
Thanks for the writeup!
[ 04-09-2003: Message edited by: Steve Shelp ]
Silver Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 374
Re: Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
Well, you could write what I know about the calibration on the head of a pin, if you used a big marker.
I will guess that what you meant was to have a ball size 5 times the thickness instead of the other way around. Knew what you meant though. I'm afraid that the Ames tester I have is only set up for B and C, Perhaps I could get another ball and maybe theres one in the case with the other anvils I missed. I'm not sure. I used a 3/8" anvil I believe, I didn't bring it home with me tonight so I can't say and yes, I had the IS radius facing up. I see you noticed I had some trouble getting a good "set". That was resolved by bending the piece with a pliers, just around the edges and then making sure that when the ball JUST touched, that the part could be turned freely (no 2 points touching) It seemed to work pretty well.
In any case, I'm not going to vouch for the rockwell as being ANSI perfect. But, the numbers did stay consistant regardless of the thickness as long as I treated the piece the same. For what I wanted to know, it was ok data. I figured to share the results and thought it was possible that the test would be skewed somewhat because of the thickness of the material. I will say this, the back side of the thinnest material tested has a "punch throug" mark roughly .080 to my eye, that is flattened on the anvil. That's the back side of course. The thicker material does not have that mark with the exception of the one that I annealed and got a similar reading of 34-36. That one also has a mark and for what it's worth, the mark is indistinguishable in diameter from the thinner material's mark. It's not punched through as far, but the size is the same within my view.
If you have access to a unit that would read on another scale, say E of F by all means, try the test yourself. You do loose a little blood cutting the cases up with a tinsnips though. You've been warned [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Brent, As tail pointed out, and I specified at the beginning of my post, that was RB80 not RC80. The test is performed the same but instead of pressing a diamond into the part, you use a carbide or HSS ball penetrator of a calibrated radius for softer materials. They even have scales for plastics and that sort of thing though you won't find a tester like that in many machine shops.
Steve, I think you are getting the case red hot. Perhaps, white, at least bright yellow in 10 seconds Hehehe.
I tried the red hot thing and I ruined a bunch of cases. They were burnt to a crisp. Keep in mind again, my necks used to be a case body, so they're hard. Not like the guy who necks a case down and trims off .050. I did this test because I weld aluminum wire at work every day. The weld is done in a presswelder, no heat or electricity. This weld must pass through a crimper and survive so I started annealing the welds about a year and a half ago. I anneal the .063 wire about 1 second, with a bernzomatic torch using regular propane. Now, that wire is 5 times as thick as a case neck. It'll melt off in 2 or 3 seconds. Now, granted, that's not brass but the change is obvious. It's a limp noodle when I hit it for 1 second, and it's hard before.
My torch is the kind with the diffuser in the nozzle. The flame is not as nice as the old unit at work. That baby makes a real flame. Mine is roughly 5/8 to 3/4" diameter at it's greatest. The torch is a Bernz TS-4000 from Lowes about a year ago. I DO use Mapp gas instead of propane, but that's because it's what I've got for plumbing(Redid the whole house and didn't want to spend my life waiting for fittings to warm up). For this experiment, I placed the case neck into the flame about 1" from the orfice of the torch. My flame is about 2-1/2" in length if unobstructed. When doing this by hand with a cordless drill and fixture, I simply could not help myself making the time longer as I went along so I decided to make a gizmo that takes it out of my hands. I also spin the case (or the gizmo does now) so we are on the same page there. I think that I may have to move the case away from the flame some more because of the way I've attached the torch to the unit so I may be out near the tip of the flame like you are on the next try, unless I change the work I did tonight. I want less heat yet, so moving away may let me have more resolution with the timing. I will say this, the 1-1000 2-1000 is longer than the automated gizmo runs. I'd bet it does 1.5 seconds. I'm gonna have to run MPLab's simulator with the current code and see just how many machine cycles the case is left in place because I don't want to increase the time when I make some programming changes on it. Right now, it's clunky code and just has a loop in there to waste some time. Later, the user will be able to set the time with a switch and a manual run button. Then there will be a default setting for my run time since I have some friends who will most definitely use the thing till I make them one. I could also just keep a chip for me and one for them, whatever.
Oh yea, before I finish, about not leaving in the flame so long. That's what I am trying to get away from. I don't want the burnt crap on my cases, inside or out. If I was one of the guys who shot cases 3 times and threw em out, I wouldn't care, but I want mine to live forever. I am near convinced that there is no falloff in accuracy if the brass is cared for properly. I'll find out this season.
Just as another test, I may put a case in the oven at 500 and see how soft IT gets. I'd like to know really how hot you need to go till you get all your gonna get. Since you draw most tool steels at 300-700, I'd bet 1500 (red) is not necessary. I know for sure that if my gun doesn't shoot this year, it'll at least win the award for the prettiest ammo! No burn marks here!
And, Thank You for readin.
If you have something that you disassemble and reassemble enough times, sooner or later, you'll have two!
Silver Member
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 374
Re: Brass Hardnes and Annealing Test
Also, I DO NOT quench em. According to all the manuals I've read (on annealing) that's a no no with brass. Slow cool. preferably in powdered lime. Well I'm not gonna use that so air is gonna have to do. My brother told me to do a quenching test also and I will do that, but, I'm ruining match brass at $1.85 a piece for every one I test so I'm just not gonna try everything. My sence of humor ran out yesterday when I had to close my eyes and cut up one of 23 matched cases to do this.
If you have something that you disassemble and reassemble enough times, sooner or later, you'll have two!
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It is Friday, which means it is time for my weekly NHL roundup. And oh what a week it has been in the NHL…
Buffalo Sabres to Win the Eastern Conference +2500
Do you believe NHL coaches don't care about retribution? In their 7-4 Thursday night win over Boston, Buffalo head coach Lindy Ruff called a time out with 13 seconds to go in the third. This was after Jason Pominville scored the seventh Sabres goal into an empty net. Ruff wanted to make sure the Bruins knew the score – if you remember Boston was the team that smacked around Buffalo physically and on the score sheet last year (culminating with Milan Lucic drilling goaltender Ryan Miller outside of the crease).
Ruff then sent out John Scott and Marcus Foligno for the final few seconds. Boston didn't pull any goonery. However, winger Brad Marchand called Ruff "disrespectful" for the move. Pot, meet kettle.
Oh, and Tomas Vanek carved up the Boston defense with a hat trick and two assists as well:
Toronto Maple Leafs to Win Northeast Division +1400
Toronto is getting a lot of production from the duo of Nazem Kadri and Matt Frattin right now. Kadri looks great in 2013 – easily the most comfortable he has been in the NHL. And Frattin, who looked pretty solid last year (with almost no production to show for it), is finding ways to contribute offensively almost every game. Frattin is a fantastic skater and he loves going to the net, and Kadri is proving to be quite adept at finding him with passes.
Kadri on the chemistry they have together:
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It is easy to see why the Canucks wanted Kadri back as a part of any Roberto Luongo trade. He isn't the fastest skater, but he plays with an edge, works hard defensively (he still has a lot of learning to do there though), and is a magician with the puck on his stick.
Edmonton Oilers to Win Northwest Division +340
Who are the best NHL players at beating defensemen one-on-one? I'd say Evgeni Malkin and Pavel Datsyuk are probably the top two, and they do it in very different ways. I'd like to add another name to that list – Taylor Hall. The dynamic left winger can beat defensemen in so many ways – with his incredible acceleration, his powerful skating, or his stickhandling ability. Hall looks much more comfortable this season now that he is playing with a fully healthy shoulder, and he is using his entire offensive arsenal to keep opposing defensemen on their toes.
Chicago Blackhawks at Vancouver Canucks (-150, 5.5)
Zack Kassian has been the most impressive and most consistent Canuck player through the first seven games this season. A big reason for that was all of the hard work he put in last summer. Kassian split time training in Vancouver with the Sedin twins, in Windsor with his trainer Dave Orton, and in Oregon at the Nike Headquarters, where he and several other young Canucks (including Chris Tanev) got to work with some of the best sports trainers in the world.
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"Both me and Danny just had a good feeling about him," Henrik said. "He's been through some tough things in the past. But meeting him last year and seeing him and being around him, we started to like him as a guy and a player. I've never been traded, but talking to a lot of players who have been traded, it's tough. And in Zack's situation, where he gets traded for Cody, there's so much expectations and that's tough for him, too."
Others in the organization (including Stan Smyl) have also had a very positive impact on Kassian over the past year or so. Vancouver really wants to get the most out of him, and you can see why with his early season dominance at the age of 22.
You will also notice that teams don't poke and prod the Sedins as much after the whistles any more when Kassian is on the ice with them.
And bettors have been happy too, two times this week PlayNow Sports offered a special of Kassian to score and Canucks to win, which paid out $3,500!
Edmonton Oilers to Win the Stanley Cup +1900
Not that there was going to be much of a debate this season, but Edmonton goaltender Devan Dubnyk has firmly cemented his spot as the starting goaltender. Dubnyk has played all but 40 minutes of Edmonton's games this season, and he has impressive numbers to show for it. A .921 save percentage is very good, and Dubnyk has given the young Oilers a chance to win on many nights.
There were some rumours during the lockout that Edmonton had expressed interest in Roberto Luongo, but Dubnyk has quieted those trade winds – for now. The Oilers would love nothing more than for him to emerge as a bona fide starting goaltender. He would be able to grow and develop with the young core, and his reasonable salary cap hit would give GM Steve Tambellini some flexibility when it comes time to re-sign the likes of Ryan Nugent-Hopkins and Justin Schultz.
I saw quite a bit of Dubnyk during his WHL career with Kamloops, and it is quite remarkable how far he has come. Back then he was pretty much a big guy who could block a lot of shots because of his size. He is much quicker, more athletic, and more technically proficient in the blue paint now. It just goes to show that hard work and coaching can pay huge dividends.


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Re: DynamicModule not saving reliably a variable between
> My current workaround is to additionally save the jobs list to a file jobs.m
> Button["Add job", jobs = savedJobs =..; Save["jobs.m", savedJobs], Method -> "Queued"]
> and to load this file during initialization
I found this bug as well and reported it to Wolfram along with a
minimal test case. It is indeed a bug and I guess hopefully they will
be fixing it at some point. (How do I know when they have? How do I
get the fix?)
My question is how to work around this. I want to create a
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Are you okay? It sounds like you're going to off yourself. The season hasn't even started yet.
I am disappointed that Brian sees what I see in MCW (I was starting to get cloudy judgment based off of so many more positive reviews from others).
However, Turner is worth more than a 2nd round pick, easily. Hinkie won't settle for that.
Turner isn't worthy much if the sixers are willing to trade him - because he's in the final year of a contract - so any team interested in him could wait for him to hit free agency
He's probably worth a top 20 protected pick or something, but little else, he's got a big cap number this year and the sixers aren't taking back anyones garbage contract that messes with their cap space unless they're getting a pretty good sweetener.
I'm planniing to take advantage of ESPN's coverage of college basketball including their online stuff that you can watch at any time - tons more games then just on the networks - to follow guys this season.
With a name to your blog like Depressed Fan how it is not what you wanted? I would think you would've been as happy as a pig in slop.
I am going to bet against the Sixers 82 times this season, starting tonight with Heat -11. Hoping for 66% or so, if tonight's line is any indication of how stupid vegas is about the Sixers.
ONly logical if one buys the premise that you enjoy being depressed versus the fact that you are depressed by being a fan of teams stuck going nowhere
I always defended the NBA in the past, but I am at the end of my rope. The amount of tanking that will happen this year is abominable. It will be unwatchable. I can't imagine the number of terrible games that will occur at the end of this regular season.
24 out of 30 teams will start the season with between a 0% and 1% chance of winning a championship. What a bad product.
I am a season ticket holder, and I am wondering why I bother.
Very few teams have a legitimate chance of 'winning a championship' - last year the east had MAYBE one other team aside from the Heat when the season started but no one projected the Pacers to be that good.
In the west there were maybe 4-5 teams with a legitimate shot...so how is this year different than any other
All this whining of tanking is from the same people who would complain about chronic first round playoff losses - those were the options
That is my point. There are no other options. The NBA product is so bad that the only option is to tank.
no wade for the heat tonight
Pelicans' Watch: Ryan Anderson out 1-2 weeks.
Hopefully the Lakers strong play yesterday(at least on offense) wasn't a mirage.
I'm not sure you understand what top 20 protected means Mr Toll
Just overhead from Sixers locker room: "When it's least expected, you're elected; it's you lucky day. Smile! You're on candid camera!"
"Together We Suck"...the tour begins.
No offense but you were wrong about Harkless and Vucevic
A bit early to say on both.
who u tawkin 2, stanley?
Heat announcers are clowns.
All announcers are clowns
Is Thad going to play any at the three?
doubt it
Opening night vs. Miami, looks like about 12k in the seats
Iverson retirement night too right?
I feel like I'm supposed to be excited.
MCW throwdown!
thad on lebron there
Nice touch, LeBron.
ET slam!
ET can dunk!
Heh, Turner barely cleared the iron on that dunk. 9-0 start, am I supposed to be happy or pissed?
Bulls had a nice early start against the Heat last night as well - I think their plan is to give people a false sense of whatever before dropping the hammer
That's just what I was sitting here saying. Do these guys know they're supposed to be stinking it up or what?
Spoelstra you whiny punk
Who is collins working for this year?
ESPN on the countdown show with simmons, rose and sage steele(the host)
I believe Andrew Bynum is active for the cavs tonigh
Ha! Look at Turner pounding his chest
He's a man damn it, a grown man (in my best oklahoma state football coach voice)
Heat's legs look very weary. Spoelstra just said they got off the bus shortly after 3 am.
Who's the 6th man for the Sixers?
wroten i guess
15 players on the roster, 5 of them listed as 'center'
That's just weird
Hawes beasting! 8 pts already.
Good crisp ball movement so far.
Turner's non-athleticism cracks me up
nice entry by wroten to thad
Good early post by Thad, nice entry pass over the top
23 pts in damn near a half a quarter. I guess I'll just laugh instead of celebrate it.
TW for 3!
11/11 from the floor
MCW isn't quick enough
MCW, Wroten, ET, Lavoy, and Daniel Orton. This 'should' be where the Heat make a run.
bad shot MCW
Those last two jumpers by ET and MCW are pretty much what I expect all year
ET leaves lebron wide open in the corner
MCW with four steals?
really? doesnt feel like it
He's long and active on D.
They're free!!!!
This 13-0 Sixers run to start the game against Miami might be their entire season highlight video.
19-0 start i believe. They must be the best team in the league
Yeah, I was quoting someone
They played even from the 19-0 start - 14/14 - I expect the heat to have the lead by half time
Terrible, terrible shot Wroten.
Gets it back by playing the passing lanes out high for a steal and dunk.
Everyone is playing the passing lanes, particularly MCW
Brett Browns coaching style is a ball hawking defense? I like that
more of that wroten less shooting
Wroten is kind of fun to watch.
33-14 after 1.
will be fun/sad to see how they lose this
Odds they're in the lead going into the half?
at least 7:1
yes but probably by single digits
I really would like to be all giddy and enjoy this, but I just can't.
I kind of want them to win just to see Turner's delusional comments after the game
Win or lose Evan Turner will bust out delusional comments
Ryan Anderson is missing more than 1-3 weeks for that broken toe.
has turner gone to the bench yet?
Yes when Wroten and Lavoy came in. For him and hawes
I think that's what I registered at the first subs. Not sure though cause I'm trying to remember who ET came back in for.
box score says 11 minutes for him so he had to somewhere
Evan Turner enters the game for James Anderson
5:05 in the first quarter according to ESPN play by play
He exited the game at 6:56 of the first - so he wasn't out long
Yeah, they're going to be losing at the half. Maybe by double digits
At this rate it's going to be tied with 6 minutes left in the 2nd :)
ET bricked that three, but very good spacing in that set.
bad pass et
Evan Turner doing his best to get that #1 pick
What a horrible pass. Jesus, Turner.
5+ min drought on O right now.
Hawes to the line.
Nope, on the floor.
Nope, side out. Thought Hawes was in the act of shooting.
this whole run is with lebron on the bench
Hey - MCW is on the bench too damn it
Like I said
MCW with a pullup 3! Fuck running offense, he says. heh
MCW dribbles into a three...hmmm
Dear Brian,
While I understand, support, and sympathize with your feelings toward the upcoming season, I will still miss your posts.
If once is a week is all you can muster, I am ok with that. See you next year.
one of the other depressed fans
Anderson 3!
MCW picks LBJ and a lay in on other end. He's a damn ball hawk that's for sure.
Anyone have the box open? How many shots for Turner?
winning at the half!
They held the lead! Great success.
51-49 at the half.
7 dimes and 6 steals for MCW on 4-6 shooting overall 2-3 from deep.
Ok, halftime bets.
Heat win by 15 (pick 15+, or 14-)
Turner finishes with 4 more FGA than points scored for the game (-1 right now)
Make your picks.
heat by 15+
no on turner
Heat by 14-
Turner with 2 more FGA than pts scored
jason smith started at center for the pelicans tonight
sissy jumper
like when the guard takes the big on a switch and doesnt settle for the jumper
MCW 3! LBJ answers.
Really solid debut for MCW
I sure would have liked to have seen Brett Brown coach Jrue up on defense with this ball-hawking style being shown so far tonight. Jrue at the 2 with MCW creating havoc at the 1. Sweet.
sissy putback
MCW steal, again. Hawes putback off MCW's miss.
MCW push and kick to Anderson for 3!
"On behalf of myself and the Sixers, I want to welcome y'all to the first Pelicans game." - Jrue Holiday to the Pelicans home crowd.
Did I just see Thad get rejected by the rim on a dunk?
Be interesting to observe him, but Orton looks just like a true stiff.
orton post move
Orton with the nice move, drop step.
Who the hell is suppose to be on Ray?
Anybody want to guard Ray?
ray allen oh my
Ray at the buzzer from halfcourt. 45 in the quarter for Heat.
when did ray allen take ownership of the sixers/ No need for replay on that -
Still giving up a lot of 3's huh?
Can they at least defend the pick and roll this year?
et finished
Oh come on - it's the first game of the season, he's not finished yet
Dear Referee
Just because Rashard Lewis says he's fouled - doesn't mean he is - and maybe call it AT the shot as opposed to making sure the shot misses or not, k thx bi
WHo the hell just got beat by Norris Cole - where are the big men coming over to get in the way? Brown needs to work on the defensive effort - he don't look happy
thad cleans up his miss
MCW steal! ET blows the bunny
MCW is one assist and two steals away from a debut triple-dub.
sissy layup
This team needs to work on their dunks
I've been half watching, if they consistently play like this, they won't be at the bottom.
Heat are tired, no Wade, and probably under estimated the sixers - they won't surprise anyone - and you can count on them having finishing issues
Yeah I agree, after what I've witnessed tonight they will secure quite a few wins they should not and will take care of their share of the other dregs of the league. They will win 20+ easily. Their effort has been there all night and the execution hasn't been half bad on the offensive end.
sissy 3!
Hawes just killed another kitten
Hawes for 3! 1 pt game, 2 and change left.
I know it's only one game but as far as I can tell MCW has court vision Jrue Holiday would envy...evan turner with a stupid 3 - RUN THE CLOCK DUMMY
Turner with another missed corner 3 but at least this one was an open look (nice find by MCW)
Turner with blown layup on a fast break - keeping it close - MCW gets a 'mans rebound'
Pretty good coming out party for this kid
oh evan
Did they give MCW both of those steals? Think he's got the triple double
he has 9 i tink
Guess this is gonna be the first game that pisses me the hell off because they won. Welcome to the weird ass season!
This is hilarious.
Postgame wrap! Postgame wrap! (ha just kidding)
Someone has to post video of the presser.
I know these wins add up but boy is this a fun one.
I don't think we will shoot this well throughout the season so I still see us at the bottom.
The effort level is pretty incredible, can that be sustained?
MCW - very interested to see what comes of him.
Not jumping to any conclusions but wow.
"The effort level is pretty incredible, can that be sustained?"
I doubt it, but it will be tremendously fun while it lasts!
MCW calmly sinks both! POTG in a landslide.
Sixers win!!! Sixerssssssssssss winnnnn
Hawes was no slouch either tonight. Heck of game and effort from him.
Any chance the post game press conference is streamed live?
26 on 19 FGA for turner
Yeah - that's not going to last
Carter-Williams looked so loose and calm out there tonight. Like he was just down at the park ballin' his ass off. Really poised for the first night in the glare of the lights. Pretty good sign from the kid.
Maybe MCW will be the star the Sixers got from the 2013 draft rather than Noel.
9 steals. That doesn't happen too often.
As far as 20/10/9 steals games go, MCW joins a semi-illustrious list of Drexler, Paul, Pippen, Cheeks, gifted banned-for-life cocaine addict Micheal Ray Richardson (led the league in assists and steals in his second season), John Wall, and Alvin Robertson, a forgotten player who did put up some great numbers for 80s Spurs teams (for example, he led the league in steals three times, and in his fourth season he averaged 20, 6, 6.8 assists, and 3 steals). As far as games with 9 steals or more, 38 such games since 1985. Pretty mixed list - a number of hall of famers (Iverson twice, Jordan three times, Drexler twice, Dirk, Pierce, Paul, Pippen, Kevin Johnson, Stockton all once,), some stars (Brandon Roy, Andre Miller, John Wall, Hersey Hawkins, Michael Finley, Fat Lever, Ron Harper), and some pretty lousy players (Rafer Alston, Mario Chalmers, Eric Murdock).
Thanks, Tray, for those details. I will add that I am 56 years old and remember Alvin Robertson fairly well. In fact I remember him as a college player at Arkansas. That's back when Arkansas was in the old Southwest Conference and their big basketball rival was Houston with Phi Slamma Jamma.
Yeah, Alvin was one of my favorite players. Hard nosed to say the least.
Other wings who I enjoyed watching defend:
Gary Payton
Jason Kidd (in early years best I've seen defend)
Nate McMillan
In terms of searchable stats at BR:
No one had ever put up 22/12/9st with less than 4 TO's (MCW had 1 TO.)
No one had ever put up 22/12/7 with more than 7 stl.
So in 30 years no one has put up MCW's line tonight (22/12A/7R/9st/1TO)
Some great lines that came through a search of 20/10a/5r/7st/2to on BR:
MJ: 42/11a/9r/8st/2to
Westbrook: 21/10/7/8/2
Alvin: 31/10/10/7/1
Alvin: 27/10/11/7/0
Lever: 26/11/7/7/2
So MCW basic put up a historic type line on his opening night, against the defending champs, playing with a historically bad supporting cast.
Impressive debut that certainly opened my eyes. I'm sure he'll lose his legs in a couple of months and the losses piling will weigh heavy. But just this one game has changed my impression of the kid.
The low turnovers do change things. He looked like a deeply unremarkable player in his tournament games, but I don't really see why he can't be as good as Jrue, or even better.
Usually for worse, it is sometime hard to project guys from Syracuse. I'm guessing they liked his athletic measurables and maybe he shot lights out in workouts.
I remember Jrue entered the league with questions about his jumper (30.7% from 3pt at UCLA) but had good form that was projected to improve, and has shot well from the NBA 3 since day 1.
The thing is, MCW already seems to penetrate more and create more contact than Jrue does now. So yeah, there's a lot of reason for optimism.
I'm a huge fan of Jrue... but 22 points on 10 shots and 12 assists to 1 TO is very un-Jrue-like in a good way.
Not sure MCW will have many better games than this one in his career.
When was the last time the Sixers had three 20 point scorers in a game? Anybody have that answer conveniently at hand?
im sure thad, lou and iguodala did it once
OK, so that means it didn't happen last year. I don't remember it offhand during Collins' tenure. Seems like during Collins' first couple of years there were a lot of games where six players scored in double figures.
Just happened last March (Holiday with 21, Wright with 22, Lavoy with 20):
Thanks! That's an odd combo no less.
To the people who are upset: jesus, we just beat the Miami Heat in a season where we are supposed to win only 9 games. Be happy! This was the best Sixers win, in a long long time.
To anyone watching you could clearly see enough flaws on this team that will still finish as a bottom 3 team. You see how many wide open layups and 3 pointers they gave up?
Enjoy the win and enjoy either Parker, Wiggins, or any of the other studs coming into the league next year. Hinkie's plan is working to perfection right now.
Tell me - who is upset that the sixers won - no one here expressed any upset at their win...did you bother reading comments before ranting.
And - man - gotta love the espn headline writers
Spencer Hawes, 76ers hold on, stun Dwyane Wade-less Heat
for those that dont know free preview of league pass for the week
Sorry to hear that BroadStreetHoops was so short lived. Hope Derek Writes a lot on LB (although for this season it probably does not matter that much.)
Here are some notable and surprising first-night statlines.
Rudy Gobert got out from under Favors and Kanter to get 23 minutes. 7 boards, no blocks, positive plus-minus when he played. The Jazz are starting Richard Jefferson. Someone has to score in Utah, so Alec Burks had 24, 6 and 6 on 16 shots.
Durant got to the line 24 times, went off for 42.
Cartier Martin had 17 points in 16 minutes for Atlanta, but John Jenkins got a DNP-CD under the new Budenholzer regime?? Schroeder had a decent debut.
The Ellis-Calderon backcourt combined for 19 assists for Dallas (8 for Monta, 11 for Calderon), Monta had 32 on 17 shots. Monta/Dirk could be an entertaining tandem at times, emphasis on "at times."
Vince Carter is still making himself useful at 36 as his peers retire or fall to injuries (21 points on 16 shots in 25 minutes).
The Nets are letting Alan Anderson be a gunner (4-11, second most shots on the team, 23 minutes). A mistake. Rookie Plumlee didn't play at all.
Bynum played 7 minutes for Cleveland, looked rusty but by no means mummified.
Detroit is leaning surprisingly heavily on Chauncey Billups until, at least, Stuckey returns (30 minutes, 16 points).
Milwaukee has an ODD roster, bizarre rotations (not counting Brandon Knight, who got hurt, two starters played under 20 minutes). Nate Wolters has the green light already (30 minutes, 12 shots). Gary Neal may lead them in scoring, or at least in attempted shots (16 FGA tonight).
Charlotte Bobcats are awful (83 points on 100 possessions). A real threat to our tanking supremacy. Cody did nothing. Ben Gordon didn't even play.
Patrick Beverley is starting in Houston for now, Howard had 26 boards, Francisco Garcia is their latest designated sniper (five threes, 19 points).
Vuce had 22, 16, 3, 3 steals, and 3 blocks. Players who did that at a younger age: Josh Smith, KG, Shaq, Barkley, that's it. Actually good center or not, he's an emerging box score stat king.
Kevin Love is back doing Kevin Love things (31 and 17). Shabbaz didn't play tonight, is already out of favor in Minnesota (according to reports, not just this box score).
Even under the front office's hand-picked coach, Ed Davis still goes to waste in Memphis (8 minutes).
Spurs played Duncan 17 minutes in a competitive game against a really good team. All part of the cryogenically freezing him for the playoffs plan.
The Dragic-Bledsoe experiment is off to a start - a combined 48, 13 and 15 on 33 shots. Miles Plumlee with 18 and 15! I don't really like the Suns' tanking odds. Good point guards take you pretty far these days. They have two, one plays smothering defense and the other is 6'6.
Lillard's still a really nice player wasting his rookie contract in Portland (32 points on 20 shots in a loss to Phoenix).
Sacramento belongs to Cousins now, and so far Cousins is doing alright (30 and 14 on 26 shots).
Brian Shaw seems to have been serious about killing Denver's pace. Really could've helped us tank this year. Yet when it's all said and done, you can't keep Ty Lawson down (20 points on 15 shots, 8 assists). I'm not sure why Denver would want a player like J.J. Hickson (12 and 9, 4 blocks) when they have Faried and McGee and Anthony Randolph (a starter in favor of Faried tonight??), but they did. Lost in that mix of high-athleticism, low-defense bigs, Darrell Arthur and Timofey Mozgov are plying their more plebeian crafts in real-ish minutes, and Nate Robinson is... there. Someone needs to restore some logic to that roster.
Warriors are beating the Lakers by 30. Klay Thompson had 38 on 15-19 shooting in three quarters. Iguodala was quiet but we all know what he'll mean to that team.
I'll say this: I didn't like MCW at all during the draft process, but a performance like that is not something the happens to your average rookie even for a single game. A spectacular performance in every facet of the game. I was honestly shocked and in disbelief.
For as much as I am critical of ET's innefeiecy and whinyness, he does seem to have a real backbone when you put im against big time stars. Even his first NBA game he showed that (also against the Heat- 16/7/4 on 1 FGA.)
I bring this up because MCW look the have the same drive to step into the spotlight, but arguably with more talent and more NBA ready. Which is remarkably odd when you consider how ET was supposed to be so NBA ready while MCW was the guy who would be a bit of a project.
Beyond the numbers and steals, MCW looked in many ways the seasoned vet out there. Some of his simple drive and kicks to open shooters were exactly how good, efficient NBA PG's play. Hopefully that reflects natural PG instincts reinforced by good coaching. The guy I'm sure has glaring holes in his game but he completely masked them for one night on a big stage.
MCW basically looked like what Sean Livingston was supposed to become before his injury.
To put MCW's game in perspective, suppose the Sixers won the 2014 lottery and got Andrew Wiggins, and then Wiggins put up that line in his first game -- how excited do you think everyone would be? MCW's line is one of the best debuts ever (most steals, second-most assists for a debut), and it's quite likely one of the best games he'll ever have in his career. I estimate his PER for the game was 51.9!
One note on the Sixers overall: I noticed a complete departure from Collins' offensive philosophy. Without looking at the shot chart, I'd say they were focusing on 3s, free throws, and shots in the paint, with very few long twos. They had a lot more turnovers (18) than Collins would have wanted, but a lot more free throws too. Their success in this game had a lot to do with the Heat's lack of defense, but they might win a few games accidentally (hurting their tanking chances) by upgrading their shot selection in this way.
Statman: Their "long two's" were about half of what their opponents were taking during the preseason. When I looked at it through 4 preseason games, they had attempted 26 midrange jump shots to their opponents 72. I wrote about it a bit here:
I asked Hinkie about that directly earlier this week, and he said it was absolutely deliberate.
Yeah, the different philosophy was verry apparent. They turned down a bunch of early long twos. They also tried to push the pace off of made baskets, which is strangely rare in the NBA.
One of the reasons for the seeming flatness of Collins (and LB) offense was a design to support your defense. Sort of like a ball control offense in football. You could see the result in the 3rd qtr where they scored 36 but gave up 45 pts- although a big part of that was giving up 3's, which is correctable.
Also, MCW's big steal game is largely due to the opponent. Miami does not run with a true PG system, which freed up MCW to freelance for steals. Clearly that is his elite talent entering the league, and he could put it on full display tonight. How much of his points and assists were a direct result of his steals?
It will be interesting to see MCW try and defend Wall and Rose this weekend. He won't get to freelance on defense against most PG's. He also will not have a size or quickness advantage.
The most impactful rookie PG defender I can remember was Jason Kidd. He could not only get the steals and fast break going, but he could physically intimidate many PG's he was defending. MCW does not have that kind on strength, but he does seem to have the same great hands.
Just went back and re-watched every bucket, foul drawn, and assist. Only 4 points and 2 assist the result of his own steals, actually.
Derek, sorry to hear your website went down so quickly...that sucks.
I'm wondering if the aggressive ball hawking that we saw last night is a change in defensive philosophy - any chance you could ask brown next time you get a chance?
Yeah. The situation's a bit complicated and not really meant for public posting.
Are you back at LB?
(Email me if you want to continue the topic)
I figured as much, not really being nosey - just offering condolences, plus I really like reading your stuff somewhere it doesn't constantly say - you are banned :)
That is surprising.
I wonder if MCW will be used some off the ball defensively on SG's (have Wroten cover the PG.) We will learn soon to what level MCW can cover NBA level PG's with Wall and Rose this weekend. But he already seems to have an elite abilty to ballhawk, and he can freelance more when covering a spot up shooter (like last night covering Chalmers.)
Ironically, Jrue and MCW would have been a nice pairing. Jrue/MCW/Iggy would have all time great backcourt defensive potential.
I agree with MCW looking like a seasoned vet on a good playoff team. It's definitely the one thing that has impressed me the most too and is something that was sort of obvious during the preseason as well.
Making the simple smart plays at the right time and playing under control is something that is developed over time for most players so i'm not sure how that bodes for his upside, but his size will definitely help him in that regard, as he will be among the biggest PGs in the league no matter what.
I also like the fact that he really didn't shy away from the spotlight and is even motivated by it. I was skeptical about his mental attitude towards the game during the draft process, but so far he's shown only very positive signs. He looks like a guy who truly wants to win these games and wants to be the one leading the team to those victories. And most importantly he truly understands how one should play to be a winning type of player, which is something Turner for example is lacking. It's not about being the most visibly noticeable diva, it's about being the most effective player. MCW looks like he gets that.
you guys see Bynum played 8 minutes last night?
It all fell into place, like alphabets into vegetable stock ... Heat Ring Nite win over Bullies, celebration/travel decompression, shelving Wade insult (& now-obvious boneheaded decision), the Doctor & historical others in the house, A.I. street mesmerization and lording, bottom-of-pool predictions/expectations, 19,000-plus crazed glam rock fans (many close-to-stagers styling stretch waist trousers on the suggestion of time), insane bucking bronco push from gate (11-11 fg!), MCW's close death dedication/inspiration, plugged-in Turner & Hootch, I mean Hawes, plugged-out constipator Collins, vanishing of Beached Bynum, Heat 4Q oven downturn ... a recipe for shock.
MCW: Michael Conley's rookie peak game probably doesn't compare. Last night - exception or predictor??? Cool cat - for one memorable event. Will his predation go on vacation as schedule presents better PGs? Confidence and fire can go a long way. Guy Rodgers-like domination and QB-ing.
Nice job, Sixers. Now what'll you do without supersized adrenaline?
Brett Brown - breath of Maine fresh air. Basketball and running - what a novel idea!
No doubt they will lose a ton of games- but it is great to watch a team try and run even off of made baskets. I hate watching teams take the air out of the ball. 24 seconds is too short a time to waste half of it before getting into any kind of set- which breeds late clock isolation.
Me too. Drying paint.
I was too young to watch the ABA, but I do regret how the league has moved away from a more open game and focused on isolation. Going back to the great Celtics teams of the 60's to the Lakers of the 80's, those teams could run and defend. And you had crazy teams like the Nuggets who would just try and outscore you (I guess the Suns under Nash bore some resemblance.)
Somehow that was lost in the ugly 90's, where the league decided to reward teams for mugging players and turning a once beautiful game into a grind. As a result, today's game is all about generating 3 point looks against psuedo-zone defenses and the the aestetics have suffered.
Loved ABA games when they'd occasionally reach network on Saturday or Sunday. Couldn't wait to see Craig Raymond again :) (his LA Stars played Pacers for '70 title, lost 4-2). If you've never read "Loose Balls" by Terry Pluto, get a copy - you'll enjoy.
Those Nuggets were so loose even Bill Hanzlik scored in double figures for 2 seasons. And oh those unis!... scored with every color in the rainbow. Alex English, former Gamecock - great, great shooter. Kiki, son of a Miss America & a former NBA-er Ernie Vandeweghe, nephew of NBA-er Mel Hutchins - how's that for a jump-start?! - also had nice backspin.
Control freak, oversized ego coaching usurps much fun from game. Though some '76 Indiana Hoosiers may have a different point of view.
Not liking the negativity around here at all. The team has a plan, even if people don't like it, and MCW looked pretty darn good. Now I am not believing he is that good but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he ended up being a much better pro then college player. The pro game is much more wide open Watch the games, don't worry about winning or losing, and focus on the development of MCW and it wont be that painful a year at all. That's my advice.
People often confuse negativity with realism...you can have doubts about a guy who was drafted 11th, came into the league with questions, even after one great game against a tired undermanned Heat team without being negative.
I liked the kid when he was drafted, yeah he has holes, but it wasn't a draft awash in perfect talent, but I feel no better or worse about him after one game
Can't say I perceive the same hostility toward MCW you seem to. I think most Sixers fans around here or other boards would be thrilled if he developed into a top flight young point guard. The truth is he hasn't been around long enough to make enemies among the fans.
Turner and Hawes are a different matter. They've disappointed fans deeply and often enough that some fans just can't get past those feelings and their greatest fears are that one or both of those players will be retained after this year if they have good years. Plus a certain percentage of fans will always care about being right more than anything else so some of those who've already declared Turner and/or Hawes to be worthless bums are uncomfortable with any reality that might challenge their opinions.
Hah, can say I've been disappointed by Hawes, as that implies some level of expectations. Frustrated (often by his inability to finish in the lane) in probably a better description. That said, the guy is interestingly quirky and seems to put in the effort to improve.
Hawes has turned himself into a decent rotational player, even if I'd prefer a center who filled a more traditional role. Heck, he even finished a few times on the break- which is more a testament to his effort than his abilities. I'm almost to the point were I'd be fine having Hawes stick around as a 20-25 mpg center if no one wants him (like last time he was a FA.) Noel-Hawes might actually work on some level.
I think after years of watching AI not have a legit big teammate who can finish and play off of his talent (would have loved to see AI/KG) and then watch Jrue have the same issue when he drove the lane... I was more frustrated for who hawes wasn't than I was for what he is.
MCW enters the league with his onld AAU teammate Nerlens Noel in tow, so he should not have to wait long to have a willing and able finisher at the rim.
On the potential Hawes/Noel tandem- I could see a guy back down Hawes and go to shoot over him... only to have Noel come out of nowhere for a weak side denial. I can also see MCW pushing the break and having Noel at the rim and Hawes at the 3 pt line. Far from conventional, more of a Jack Sikma throwback- if he can learn to rebound like Sikma.
Interesting that you brought up Jack Sikma. I remember him as a pretty intense scoring and rebounding big man. He played in a era before perimeter oriented big men were fashionable, but I was surprised when checking his career stats that he did take a fairly large number of 3 pointers in the last few years of his career.
He was the rare outside shooting big who was definitely not soft. He was quite a big time player early in his career- although like Hawes he never shot over 50%. He was a 6X All star every year from age 23-29- before he became a 3pt threat late in his career. He also finished top 10 in MVP voting twice- including 7th as a second year pro leading his team to a championship in 1979. Like you, I more remember he later year.
Sikma played the same time as Steve Hawes, but well before Spencer was born- so I doubt he patterns his game after him.
Yeah, i think as a fan base we've gone a little overboard with Hawes just because he isn't what we want to see from the C of the team. But on a reasonable contract (less than he is payed now), as the 7th-8th best player on the team, i have no problem with watching Hawes play 20 minutes per game as a Sixer in the future. That could easily happen even if the Sixers became a contender.
Interestingly, i find his game far more enjoyable now that he's shooting threes instead of long twos (for the most part).
MCW first player ever( or as far basketball reference goes back to) with at least 24 PTS 7 REB 12 AST 9 STL
22 not 24, woops
ESPN's game story (quoting Elias Sports Bureau) listed two others: Johnny Moore in 1985 and Rickey Green in 1982. Both of those guys were top of the line at getting steals, which is obviously the limiting factor in MCW's stat-line. Another interesting tidbit: Oscar Robertson is the only player ever to achieve a triple-double in his first game, so MCW missed by one steal from joining that super-exclusive club.
It was the 1 TO that made the line historically unique.
Yeah, i agree. Also, the opponent and the outcome should probably be added as well.
This has the chance to truly redefine how fans watch the NBA. The possibilities are endless.
nerd food
It already is, much of nba.com/stats utilizes it, and there's an even more powerful behind the scenes one that teams (and some members of the media) get.
(I'm also assuming that there's an OH MY GOD powerful one that only teams get. I just haven't seen that one).
Well at the very least i would assume they get the raw spatial data and if they have good ideas and people they can utilize it to quantify pretty much anything that is happening on the court.
Didn't know NBA/stats alreeady uses this data behind the scenes. They really need to work on the interface to make it more accessible. Anyway, i'm interested in the smart new statistics like assist opportunities which i haven't seen before.
Speaking of it didn't the NBA install the SportsVU cameras in all arenas this year? Only 15 teams had them last year. How could NBA/stats use them when half the arenas didn't have the cameras?
Sorry, I meant that the data will be used on nba.com/stats. or at least I think that's what I read. Let me go back and find what I had previously read.
solid breakdown of some of the stuff MCW did last night
I am glad to see some positive Hawes talk for a change. Would a 3 year deal for 15 million total work for you, TK76.
Derek, what end of the floor was the selling point for drafting M.K.Williams in your and Hinkies mind? Could his passing lane D be seen on film in Syracuses' zone?
His defensive rebounding caught my eye early in the opener and he and Turner even things up for our team on the boards.
I'll try to answer this.
Steals have proven to be a very good predictor for future NBA success, more so than any other stat. That's probably the biggest reason why those players capture the eye of the analytical crowd.
That being said i think MCW was a very difficult player to project in general for various reasons:
1. He was a sophomore, who barely played as a freshmen, essentially leaving only 1 year of reliable data.
2. He was a "very old" sophomore - turned 22 recently, and age (or performance/age) has historically been the best predictor of future success.
3. His defensive ability is very difficult to project in the zone Syracuse plays.
4. His shooting mechanics looked good in general, but his precision and shot selection were horrific for some reason.
5. He was arrested for stealing a bathrobe and slippers from a mall!!! Where is he in terms of maturity and will he be able to develop it?
The important thing to keep in mind when projecting players is about how good they can become in a certain system with X improvement on certain skills. Teams like Houston (which is the line of thought Hinkie has i presume) and San Antonio, have especially been good at finding players who can be very effective within their system. I think MCW is well suited for this system, but he might not be as good in a different environment. The entire team will essentially be focused on his development though this year, so i fully expect him to have every chance to succeed.
P.S. As for the Hawes question, I think Hawes is worth somewhere around 3 years, 10-12 million per year, possibly 15, if he proves to be a good fit within the new Sixers system. But i don't think resigning him makes sense for the Sixers at the moment.
I didn't realize he was 22. Is he one of those kids that stayed back a year in middle school so that he could dominate the competition against younger kids?
Nerlens Noel and Andrew Wiggins have apparently done this as well. They stay back a year in middle school, dominate the competition, get recognized by scouts, and then take extra credits over the summer to skip a grade once they receive scholarship offers.
In some states it is commonplace for an entire football team to be held back so that the players are all a year older as seniors.
I'm interested in MCW's driving lane D against Wall and Rose.
An amped-up, long-limbed, skinny kid grabbing 7 against a hungover, flatfooted team and fairly average rebounding frontline doesn't augur the next Magic Johnson to me, though Magic liked what he saw. Gravity and court happenstance dictates numbers happen. Credit for 1 game of exciting initiative and execution.
Your namesake, Spencer Hawes, despite his shooting ability, is a stubborn pill to swallow. In paint, some nights legit, some nights tissue paper. Maybe he'll benefit from Brown's encouragement and tough energy. At least he looks leaner, more fit, ready to give it a go. Consistent production his bugaboo due to slow lateral feet and romance with floor space. As you suggested, Noel may clean up from weakside for him in time. But the suggestion is damning in itself of Hawes's inclinations (to date).
3yr/15M is way below market value for a 7 footer with a pulse- so they should probably consider him for that unless they have a better option who can protect the lane better than Hawes. I doubt they will be able to sign him for that. He will probably get 7-8M per year, and I don't think I would sign him for that.
Big picture, they probably won't sign anyone to a deal longer than 2 years unless they see the guy a a good fit with their franchise player. And given they have not yet found their franchise player, it is hard to project who they might keep.
I guess certain role players like spot up shooters who can defend will work with any team. A defensive specialist like Noel will work on any team. Probably a hustle guy like Thad works to- but not at 9M unless he fits a starter (say next to a dominant big like Bynum was supposed to be).
But Hawes, Evans and MCW have more specific skill sets that may or may not fit with the future of the franchise. If the draft an elite PF who can operate in the post and defensively control the lane, then Hawes could be a good fit (even as a starter.) If they get a pure wing shooter then MCW and/or Turner could be a good fit. If they draft a ball dominant scorer in the Lebron/Kobe/DWade mold, then ET and MCW will likely be poor fits unless they drastically improve their shooting.
I think Jrue could have fit as a 3rd best player on a great team regardless of the composition. He can shoot, drive, defend and play PG or SG. But the guys left on the roster are not nearly as versatile, so I doubt Hinkie will know whether they want to keep them or not until after the draft- and even then it will be a best guess.
To be clear, I'm not saying that Jrue is a superstar or better than some other players. But he is really versatile and can be effective for a broad range of teams. His main weakness is that he should not be asked to be a team's best player (same was the case with Iggy.)
Thad will shoot better than 5-15 and get to the line at least once tonight. How's that for a safe call?
Turner has eliminated SOME of the lead in his a**. Griping mouth may be better controlled under Brown, but that remains to be seen.
Andrew, son of former Sixer guard Mitchell Wiggins. How good can the kid be?
As good as Jellybean's son? Maybe not.
Bobby Bonds and Ken Griffey Sr were both All Stars, but it seems like the NBA is more a league of journeyman fathers.
Jalen Rose' father, Jimmy Walker, was the #1 overall pick in 1967. Probably the closest in all star talent.
doubt it. Kobe sprung from b-ball genes both sides. mom is chubby cox's sister. jb, more naturally talented than dad Wiggins. plus, Kobe marinated in Italy and Philly cultures - distinct advantages.
His mother was 2 time olympic silver medal winner in track and field.
I want to know how good Yao Ming's children will be. Yao married a 6'3 basketball player from China's womens national team.
what was her time in 94 ft?
Yao's kids - barring a miracle, none will have winged heels.
no Nene for the wizards tonight
Alright, feel like we're looking at about a 30-point loss. Wonder if they'll surprise me again.
thad bucket
thad putback
Move your feet mcw
Nice pass, turner
Ick - can't we find a happy medium and lose with at least some positive play?
hawes to thad
nice drive by turner
lavoy long 2
this is what i expected the other night vs the heat
sissy 3
john wall does not like MCW for some reason
down 10 at the half
Anyone see the story on Turner on Philly.com today?
Hinkie isn't my GM.
Pretty funny.
Pretty clear that by "not my GM" he means that Hinkie's not the GM who drafted him as opposed to meaning he has a lack of respect for Hinkie.
heh MCW almost blew the alley oop
Mcw has been pretty invisible, at least to my eye. This is a winnable game right now. Thad is nearly unstoppable
nice drive by MCW
5 straight
bad long 2 by MCW
They were both free
Nice d by orton
tied at 74 end of the 3rd
lavoy putback
Anderson finally gets a 3 to land
Wroten plays so out of control it's scary.
et putback
Are they going to win this game? Hinkie's going to have to move Thad and Turner if he keeps playing like this.
Hawes too.
Holy shit! They're burying them.
My emotions are all over the place right now. Root for wins or hope for the high draft pick?
Hah, of course the sixers would start out 2-0.
Tanking is so hard to do.
thad putback bails out evan's bad shot
What's Thad's line tonight?
27 and 8 REB
Ball game. Hawes ices it. Wow.
2-0 start, the one year we didn't want it. 109 pts. Unreal
Thad is just a man.
good deflection by hawes
great game plan on beal tonight
he hasnt done much
109-102, final
2-0 bitches!!!
What's up with the pic? Is that a cry for help
I figured some people on the blog might want to kill themselves at some point during the season. Just giving them some helpful ideas.
Hmmm....one can only hope you show us how first
I see your still the same bitch from last season. Some things never change.
What ever you say 'suicide encourager'
bad shooting night for MCW but only 2 turnovers for him
the magic beat the pelicans
So we might not end up with a 1st round pick this year?
Cue all the over reactions one way or another when less than than 2.5% of the season has been played
They will win more of their next 35 games than the last time they started the season 2-0.
That last team went from 3-0 to 10-29.
On your Jrue comments from earlier, I was wondering how Brown could have helped him develop. And will this coaching hire cost us Wiggins but would that be a bad thing if he becomes a great coach.
No. Good coaches don't win without superstars.
Brian, in this draft there is more than one possible star. If M.Smart is the next J.Harden, and we get him at #3' I will be alright with that.
Yeah, yeah it's still awful, awful early but,
the one thing that is absolutely freaking hilarious to me, but at the same time gratifying in a certain sense is, they appear to look way better than last year and with glaringly more talent present on the floor. The returning players (Hawes, Thad, Turner) look much more toned-up, slimmed-down, and better conditioned. The new guys (starters and some subs), so far, apparently bring their own unique contributions compared to some of the players of last year (MCW, Wroten, Morris, Anderson).
Most importantly, the thing that jumps out at me the most is, the discernible difference in the coaching. It's a world of difference and it ain't even close. Yeah, again, it's early, but these guys have not just bought in on the floor but, as mentioned, off the floor too. They're believers, and sure appear to be astute listeners too. That's big, to me.
But back to what I was originally getting at, it's hilarious in the sense that we've all supposedly been told by various sources (certain media, fanbase, and numerous commenters here) that "Hinkie has a plan", and ownership has tosssed in the fire their card of "mediocrity", and just sit back and watch "cause the plan is working", when on the flipside it seems plainly obvious we've all been duped. That is some funny shit right there!
But it's gratifying also because, I was souring and dreading just the thought of how excruciating this season may possibly be for me as a diehard fan, when actually as the way-too-early returns suggest, it looks and has turned my feelings the polar opposite. I can get on back on board now (shouldn't have never been so mopey to have left in the first place) if this is the quality of product on display.
That's some satisfying and entertaining basketball to view. The effort is tremendous, the poise is almost downright scary (considering most of these guys are pups and haven't played together before), the cohesion is visibly present, the execution is often precise, and the roster turnover seems refreshing. The whole shebang is just really something I can gather myself and rally behind; competitive every night and decent enough to contend for a playoff spot. Something feels familiar. The often played out, tightly clinged to .... Hope. It's back! (though hope is often means good and bad for me)
This is certainly not to say that I wasn't damn tired of the mediocrity for the last decade, but I could never shake my apprehension for dealing with the thought of the team going down this hope-they-get-lucky frequently-coined-tanking path. Yeah, I wouldn't disagree it was needed (10 years of mediocrity?), but I was having a pretty hard time stomaching it. Whereas foreshadowing a bit after seeing these first two games, it doesn't look like that's anything I'll have to concern myself with.
Hinkie, Brown and Co. pulled the wool over all of our eyes. 8th seed here we come!
No no, we're still tanking the season. Don't be ridiculous.
You love the word ridiculous don't you?
You keep making yourself believe that if you want to, you'll eventually be the last man standing with regards to this so-called belief they're "tanking".
It ain't happening. There's no signs of it from their on-court play, and particularly their effort and much-required heart. The talent level bump from the new guys and subs and the zeroed-in focus from the returnees is another non-sign. The coaching is a major improvement and the numero uno non-sign tanking isn't in the works. Add all that to the number of bad and somewhat weak, and also-medicre teams across the league and it isn't even close to possible. The probabilty isn't "almost slim to none". It's none. N-O-N-E. None.
Your wishful thinking is admired though. Just a bit misguided I believe.
Let it keep playing out and we'll see.
I mean, this - everything you typed above - is insanity, there's no other word for it. How can I even respond? First of all, they decided to put the most physically talented player on the roster on ice, for a year, when everyone knows he could come back mid-season if we were at all interested in winning 40 games. Every player we signed this offseason barely belongs in the NBA and has spent real time in the D-League. Someone like Anderson may look good on a given night, but he has a three-season track record of shooting under 40 percent from the field and being a barely okay three-point shooter. The team traded away the best player on the roster and didn't resign its only good shooter (Wright). Knowing that they had the softest center in the game and crap behind him, they chose to do nothing about that situation but sign Daniel Orton minutes before the start of the season. They had this second-round pick who's been described as Reggie Evans with talent, and they sent him to Iran so they could push back his rookie contract clock a season. And again, they choose not to play the most talented big man on the roster and the best defensive big man on the roster, for the whole year. I'm really not sure what more they could do to lose games, other than trade Thad and Turner, and there's no evidence that they're not planning to do that midseason when there's more of a market for them and their improved stats. So only someone who's really good at willfully deluding themselves could look at this situation and not at least see a desire on the part of management to tank the season. Point one.
Point two, you'd also have to be crazy to think this team can win. Like, how would it do that? The team is comprised of lousy shooters, extremely young and raw players, turnover liabilities at every position, and overmatched defenders, except at a couple positions, and really, being a great defensive point guard, given the phenomenal state of the position at the moment, is like being a good defensive center in the Shaq era. You just don't stop nearly half of the point guards in the league. Anyway, I'm not sure why I spent a few minutes explaining all this, because it's extremely obvious to every sentient basketball observer on the planet that this team is trying to tank and will successfully tank, and that our 2-0 start is a statistically meaningless blip on the part of a roster that we probably won't even have in its current form by the second half of the season.
Three things
1) Your condescension is loathsome. I apologize for not being a sentient basketball observer on the planet like yourself. Let me step aside. Excuse me for being a plain old free-thinker and -obverver
2) It is an absolute hugeeeee stretch to call Noel "the most physically talented player on the roster". Thad says Hi, Carter-Williams waves quietly, hell even Evan might bend his elbow to begin to raise his hand. Noel is nothing more than a stringbean of a raw athlete at this point (with an injured rehabbing knee to boot). And piling on and calling Noel the "most talented big man on the roster" is quite a bit hyperbolic. He's provided no evidence of the sort to make such an outlandish claim. He may not even be as good as Hawes when it comes to all-around game. He couldn't hold Thad's jock on his best day at the moment.
3) You conveniently listed negatives in they're lousy shooters (questionable), young and raw, turnover prone, overmatched on D, but you left out not a few but all of the positves they bring indivudually and collectively. And you omitted the X-factor completely - Brett Brown.
I must be crazy as shit because not only do I think this team can win, I know they can. They've shown me. Even if they didn't win either of those games, the signs are there.
Try to remember something: you don't "know" what "can" happen. A little humility is a good thing. You're not nearly as bright as you think you are. I understand that this mental condition is part and parcel of growing up in a generation whose teachers placed such undue emphasis on reinforcing self-esteem, but it is not so difficult to rise above the mistakes of your upbringing.
+1 Enjoyed reading this post and feelings. Good insights. I think it's pretty funny too. This season seems to be shaping up to at least be interesting, entertaining, and fun. Go 76ers!
No one thinks their "plan" is, if things keep going as they are, potentially backfiring right before their eyes do they? LOL, there's no way is it? If so, that makes it even all the more funnier.
Even more proof that it (tank) was never in the works, to me. They're not that foolish. Can't be.
We will know our organizations mindset in a week or two if they win a few more games. Pheonix saw during preseason that Bledsoe along with Gortat made them a possible 500 team so they moved Gortat. We may see the same thing happen here.
The players aren't an indicator, they will play hard regardless. But Hinkie will have the final say. I don't want an outright tanking because the teams that tend to do that end up with the 5th pick or something similar. If its meant to be it is meant to be.
I don't disagree we'll know their mindset more clearly after several more games. But my belief, and the evidence thus far, is pointing towards doing everything to win.
I disagree with you on one thing though. The players are one of the most important indicators to me. If a GM sees his took-forever-to-hire hand-picked coach can get this hodgepodge of guys to play at THIS level, and execute this WELL so quickly, and buy in to what he's trying to sell, he'll perk up to what he may have stumbled upon. And daydream of what could possibly become.
Hinkie isn't stupid. The taste of winning is quite influential and hardly ever bitter.
Yeah, agree they've looked good so far. Completely disagree about everything else you said tonight. This team was built to lose. If they're at or near .500 after 20 games, I think Hinkie will take action to make sure they finish at the bottom.
Eh, don't see how you can sit there and say it "was built to lose". How so? Why? Just because us fans thought so and questioned and thumbed our noses at their every (non) move?
Be interesting to see how it all goes down as the season progresses but I don't see him stripping it down, when if some of the guys keep looking like this he's just got a front row seat for their auditions as keepers/pieces going forward. He's not gonna lose his ace in the hole of assets and potential jockeying in the '14 draft if they turn out more of a winner than he originally envisioned. As MCW or Noel may eventually show (or not), the prizes are scattered throughout and not just at the top all the time. See Paul George and Greg Monroe and the like.
Interesting to see how after two only two games your entire belief system can be changed...
A morsel of evidence and a little bit of foresight can do that. Just sit back and watch the games, as will I.
The competitive desire and will to win in each individual player can't be measured. Yeah, the team maybe was built to lose, but it wasn't built to not compete. It's a natural inclination in most every player to compete their ass off when stepping on the hardwood. And these guys are doing a hell of a job with that.
There's too many mediocre to weak to downright bad teams in this league as I mentioned last night for these guys to execute as they have and put forth the effort they have for them to be anywhere near the bottom of the dung.
Mock all you want or be in disbelief of how I can go from one extreme to the next. Just watch. You'll see.
It's the Evan Turner is a scrub early declaration and the Jrue/Lawson debates all over again. Only time will tell. Having a differing belief is nothing new for me.
A morsel of evidence and 'foresight' is what you had all off season and now after two games you've suddenly flipped your switch and approach to the team...so you must not really have any strong belief in your ability to analyze things or you were complete wrong in the off season.
Changing any belief about how the season is going to turn out after 2 games is just a sign of no real belief in what you're saying.
The Heat are 1-2 - do you now think they some how won't be a serious finals contender?
See, you have it all wrong. I haven't changed my belief to anything. Those concerns were in relation to the off the court stuff, which was what I was referring to. That has not one iota to do with what is now occuring on the court. The games have started. Plans can change. For them, not me.
Your comprehension baffles me sometimes.
Whatever you say eddy - your ability to reform your argument to try and make it look like you're almost always prescient and psychic is fascinating - i should have known better than to engage you - it's a waste of oxygen - all you want to do is trumpet your 'expertise' and have people some how in awe of you on the internet
You a non-reading motherfucker. You just have an agenda.
Whatever you say Eddy - Whatever you say - keep telling yourself that - just like you tell yourself you know more than everyone about pro and college ball (yet fascinatingly no one wants to give you a basketball job)
I've said no such thing, ever. You must think that if you're gonna falsely accuse me of it.
Agenda again.
Do you really think he could do that? If this team were .500 or better after 20 games, the Sixers fans (who do care and do know something after all) would be enthralled and they would be the talk of the basketball media after being a "no-brainer" for last or near last place. You can't buy spirit like that. Some things are more important than a high draft pick.
Whether they will be that good, well, we'll just have to see. You are right. They were built to lose. Sooner or later that will probably happen, but, if it doesn't, we're looking at a minor miracle. You don't f*ck with miracles!
74 points in the paint? Did they ever get that many in any game last year?
That's unbelievable considering our 7-footer floats around the arc sniping 3's in opponent's eyes, our "tweener" doesn't have much in his repertoire of post moves, our 3-man who really has never settled on a comfy position that couldn't get by old man Paul Pierce all last year much less finish with any regularity, and a rookie PG that probably hasn't even realized he's not still in the Carrier Dome playing.
That philosophy is a recipe for success. Success of the non-tank variety (uhhh hmmmm - clears throat).
Feels weird to say but Hawes outplayed Gortat by a mile tonight.
Don't worry guys, everything is going according to plan :)
The team was never built to lose. It was built to maximize the value of the assets, which also includes development of young players. That means Turner, Hawes and Thad should look as good as possible and the team while the team inevitably finishes at or near the bottom of the league so they can maximize the value of their draft pick (which would go to Miami if they make the playoffs).
Anyway, the players can't possibly keep this up. I expect they will completely fall apart in the second part of the season. Enjoy the wins while you can.
An as a reminder, Charlotte started 7-5 last year and Orlando started 12-13. They both finished with the 2 worst records in the league (21 an 20 wins respectively).
P.S. I'm just glad this team will at least be entertaining while losing.
My biggest issue when tanking is talked about is how the assets are valued and used. That will make or brake our g.m., in my opinion. My best example, in my mind is Spence.
You know how I feel about him. He has gotten a little better at different things over the last couple of years and seems to work hard at it. This year, particularly last night, his outlet passes have been "Waltonesque" to help start our break and the offense seems to take a major step back with him on the bench.
I would love for him and Thad to be part of this teams' future while Evan has to win me over because of his attitude at times. But even Evan, dispite his end of game brainfreezes, has gotten a lot of his points in the flow of the game, unlike last year.
There was no "flow of the game" last year and much of the time it was just "every man for himself."
Look at the benches around the league. There are a lot of weak sisters. IF Sixers continue playing with energy and heart, Ls aren't inevitibilities.
Turner and Hawes have put in work over the summer and their play is bearing fruit early. At some point - don't know when - there'll be a reversion to the mean. When Vegas hangs a 16.5 on you, pressure of expectation is gone. That easing vacuum and Brown's positivity and transfusion of guts/mental toughness have netted two comeback wins. That's entertainment!
Gortat is as limber as Frankenstein, past his peak, I estimate. Given the choice at present, I'll take the brute in Minnesota over him. NEE-ko-laaah!
I'm 90% sure that you are right, but the 10% uncertainty is the type of stuff that makes life worth living. A little uncertainty once in awhile is a good thing.
Wall hit a wall, partly because Beal street was dark (4-18). Harrington's 'hula hoop' breakaway was amusing (I wonder how Wittman viewed it; his team better ring up some Ws soon or he'll be gone).
Lavoy Allen surprisingly dented opponent (19 min, 5-6, 4 rbs, 2 assists). Who woke him up?
"Creating a winning culture" is a load of horse crap. It does you no good if you don't have a top 10 player. And what's the point? I don't expect half the players on this roster to be here next year.
traded or not re-signed
1. Lavoy Allen
2. Kwame Brown
3. Spencer Hawes
4. Evan Turner
5. Brandon Davies
6. Darius Morris
7. Hollis Thompson
8. James Anderson
9. Daniel Orton
Injured Reserve
10. Jason Richardson
That leaves:
Thaddeus Young
Michael Carter-Williams
Nerlens Noel
Arnett Moultrie
Tony Wroten
I only saw the first quarter so I am not sure how he looked for the rest of the game. It seemed like MCW really turned what was an awful first quarter into a decent statline : 14 (15 shots) , 5, 4 on 40% shooting. By no means a great statline, but if you take just the last 3 quarters I bet it was alright? You guys tell me.
I heard Brian say he was invisible so I am not sure what to think. But that statline is not bad, especially on 2 TO's in this style of fast pace play.
I am glad he gets to face such intense PG competition early on. Rose time tonight.
He made some big plays late in the game, but he was pretty bad for the most part. Perhaps beyond the stat line, he really had trouble staying in front of the quick wall. He stands up too tall sometimes and can really get burned by some change in direction. Obviously many guards will struggle to keep Wall in front of them, but there are a lot of hyper quick point guards in the league, and it's a concern I have of MCW.
MCW: Was incinerated by Wall in Q1. Phoenixed in 2nd half.
the game is on NBATV tonight for the out of towners
Hey - we've got the free league pass preview going anyway - but at least I'll get to see this one in HD
The Heat are 1-2, I doubt anyone in Heat land is doubting they'll get it together...people are jumping to a lot of conclusions (just in general) with little evidence, some people seem to have completely flipped their 'vision' of the team as well - it's pretty interesting how desperation can make people see things that aren't there.
What you're seeing is the enjoyment over the possibility that a joyless plan may not succeed as planned.
Yes, it is still inconceivable that this team as constructed could come close to the playoffs, but it is no longer inconceivable that this team could be significantly better than anyone expected. If that happens and the team has two lottery picks that aren't in the top five, I'll take it. If a miracle happens, this team makes the playoffs, and has only one first round pick as a result, I'll enjoy that crazy ride too.
For this viewer, either of those outcomes is more fun than "we're going to have one of the absolute worst teams possible, get a very high draft pick, and don't get too attached to the players on this team because as many of them as possible will be gone soon enough."
I don't believe it's inconceivable they could make the playoffs, I don't believe that they could do anything significant in the playoffs.
I believe my 'beliefs' towards what a team should be doing have been made clear repeatedly. I don't care about chronic playoff losses with no belief they can make the Conference (let alone NBA) finals, which is basically what we've been dealing with since 2002, I've been wanting a rebuild since then- I hated the Iverson trade, because it maintained mediocrity without making the team more competetive towards the title.
As long as I believe that the 'plan in place' involves TRYING to build a team that can content for those finals appearances, then I'm going to enjoy rooting for the team, the record is irrelevant to me - the wins and losses are irreleveant to me - what I was looking forward to this was player development - i guess just MCW this year since Nerlens wasn't going to play, and seeing what Hinkie could do with his assets...
My issue is that after two games you can't 'change your mind' any more than you can change your mind about the Heat after 3 games :)
The Iverson trade HAD TO HAPPEN, just like the Timberwolves' trade of Garnett. They also received one of the most dependable point guards of the 21st century in that trade and the difference in team play was virtually immediate. "I never played with a point guard like this before," said Kyle Korver at the time.
A problem they had then that they don't have now was the amount of money sunk in and frozen by Chris Webber. Once that hurdle was clear, Stefanski had to make his mark by paying too much for both Brand and Iguodala and handcuffing the team once more. Although we don't know for sure whether or not Hinkie is capable of significantly overpaying someone within the next year or two, we do have reason to believe that the NBA free agent market has changed since then if last summer is any indication of next summer.
I didn't say the Iverson trade didn't have to happen - i said I didn't like it - for the reasons you seem to like it - it was a trade that left the team running place -it wasn't a trade for assets (ala the Jrue trade) - I believe the sixers 'haul' from the Holiday trade is more valuable towards building a championship contending team then what they got for Iverson, primarily because the trade motivation was wrong...
The Garnett trade - even in the long run - sucked for the timberwolves (check out this time line of the trade.
The Iverson trade was a treading water trade, it did nothing to improve the team enough to matter or 'unimprove' enough to get quality draft picks.
I'm glad kyle korver played with the 'best point guard' he ever played with, but Andre Miller wasn't a needle changing (positively or negatively) net for the sixers...
Tonight, by the way, is their only national TV appearance (ESPN, TNT, NBA TV, and ABC) of the season according to my reading of the national TV schedule - unless they make the playoffs, of course. :)
Not really surprising...they are expected to be terrible and unlike a team like the lakers or knicks who have the national caché when they stink - the sixers are just the sixers...
Is there a package out there that allows me to buy the games and watch them on my schedule on my computer or tablet?
Yes, the Broadband Choice. You pick five teams (used to be 7) but you don't have to pick them all at once (In fact, I don't think I've ever picked all of mine). They usually have an early season offer of around $109. You can watch any games of those teams live or on replay. Replay if often better because it takes less time.
As far as I know there is no "one-team" deal.
And the ios app actually works fairly decently (depending on your internet connection, obviously)
Thanks for that - I know TK had mentioned it earlier but I wasn't sure about the details.
And actually - it's 129 - which means i can get all games for all teams for less than 50% more than what it costs to get all 5
That's some messed up pricing structure.
You buy the whole season you pay about $6.33 a team
You buy the broadband package you're paying $26 a team
That's just nuts, at this point I'd just pay for the cable package to have the more options
There's a 'mobile' league pass for $50 bucks but who in their right mind thinks watching games on their phone is doable - i love my iphone - but video is just nuts (i suppose I could use apple tv and airplay from my phone?)
OK, so the $109 deal is no longer available. That was what I was charged but I'm on automatic renewal.
You're right about the pricing structure, but I guess my view is based on having the full League Pass for a two or three years in the past and wasting it. In fact, I watch very few games outside of Sixers' games on the choice Broadband I have now. Outside of that, the games offered by the national networks (TNT, ESPN, NBA TV, ABC) and my local cable sports station for Wolves games are more than enough for me.
I know the increase in price isn't all that much but why pay more when I'm pretty confident based on experience that I won't use the additional availability. I'm also a college basketball fan and if I want to watch some random game on replay during off hours on my computer, I'm just as likely to watch some college game offered for free by ESPN3.
You are off by a factor of 2 since you will get to see the other teams about 14 times since you can watch them play your fave 5. I would rather it be 7, but 5 works for me... once I finally decide on the teams.
I thought about that - honestly - but even still - it's much cheaper per team to buy 'all' the games than just 5 of them :)
Sure you get to see every team when you play the five - but it's possible that you get to see other teams only 10 times (just saying, if you chose 5 eastern teams you'd only see each western team) 10 times
You could do it on a per game basis - you'd still be getting a better deal with the tv - get enough DVR's and enough hard drives and you could record and watch every game if you've got that time of game (yeah i've thought about it)
My cable company does not offer NBA League Pass, so I have to go the online route. I guess it all comes down to how many non-Sixer games you want to see. And that likely depends on just how bad the Sixers are this year. I can always upgrade later to the full plan.
I think I will pick more Western teams, both since the SIxers play them less, and because they don't overlap as much with Sixer games. I would like to have all of the games, but if I really want to watch another team then I still can, it just takes a bit more effort.
How much does parking typically cost at WFC?
I think its been raised this yr. 15 or 18 bucks to sit your car in an open lot for 3 or 4 hours. Ain't that a jim dandy of a bargain?
was $16 at the opener, anyone going tonight so we can find out if they've discovered dynamic pricing there?
I am still sure this question will solve itself but I am stuck here. I have a very tough time blatantly rooting to lose and I have learned that quickly in just 2 games. At the same time, I ultimately think we need to lose some games.
With that, who do I root against here? I want MCW to develop. I want Turner and Hawes to build trade value. I would like to see Wroten and Anderson prove something of themselves.
Sheesh this is a strange season. I will have my "lucky" sixers t-shirt on tonight which pretty much guarantees we lose.