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Talk:Mid-Atlantic states
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
- 1 Virginia Mid-Atlantic
- 2 North Carolina Mid-Atlantic
- 3 West Virginia
- 4 Both right
- 5 Colours and appearance
- 6 Maryland as Mid-Atlantic
- 7 Not Correct
- 8 Source for Reference
- 9 Wikipedia has the answer
- 10 One More Reference
- 11 History VS. Geography
- 13 American Heritage Dictionary definition
- 14 Mid-Atlantic References
- 15 Maybe We're Thinking to Hard
- 16 Two Mid-Atlantics
- 17 Upstate New York
- 18 New Opening Paragraph
- 19 Better Than It Was
- 20 Major Cities
- 21 review
- 22 Definition
- 23 Interesting....About Virginia
- 24 Gallery
- 25 The Chesapeake
- 26 Lower case
- 27 Map does not match definition!
- 28 Australia & Canada included?
- 29 Albany: a coastal city or an interior city? (with some off-topic discussion about ports) (sic)
- 30 Composition Order
- 31 Proposal to distinguish between the two separate regions
- 33 if the mid-atlantic states were merged into a single state....
- 34 Unclear Meaning: "least self-conscious of American regions.[4]"
- 35 New York?
- 36 New Jersey 1860 Presidential Electors
Virginia Mid-Atlantic[edit]
The state of Virginia should be colored red also.
- Virginia is not classically a Mid-Atlantic state, but it is true that with current economic geography, many residents, particularly in Northern and perhaps to a lesser extent Central Virginia consider it as such. I think we should note this ambiguous position rather than try to define the state as definitely in one region or another. Given its strong Southern history (from George Washington and Thomas Jefferson on), I don't think it would be appropriate to just highlight the whole state red. Perhaps we could color it pink, or maybe just highlight those regions of the state that are often considered Mid-Atlantic.--Pharos 06:27, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
North Carolina Mid-Atlantic[edit]
If Virginia is considered part of this region North Carolina should be added as well. The EPA lists eastern Carolina and southward as part of the Mid-Atlantic because of the Albermarle watershed shared between VA&NC. [1][2]
Also many weather stations add NC into the Mid-Atlantic region[3] And numerous companies that also include NC into this region. Also the Federal reserve has there own geographical boundries for the Mid Atlantic. [4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 18:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
USGS also includes both of the Carolina's in the Mid-Atlantic region [5][6] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
- None of those illustrations has any documentation, so one can make whatever assertions might be useful TEDickey (talk) 23:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
- The first reference is documented under the Environmental protection agency Mid-Atlantic Integrated Assessment. The region is described as extending from southern New York into northeastern North Carolina.[7] Also the Washington Post have commonly put NC into the Mid-Atlantic region example:[8] Also the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network has North Carolina added to their broadcast area. (220.127.116.11 (talk) 21:54, 2 March 2011 (UTC))
West Virginia[edit]
West Virginia is also a Mid-Atlantic state was defined by the USGS http://geology.er.usgs.gov/states/mid_atl.html and it needs to be made red on the map as well.--71Demon 21:25, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, but they also classify North Carolina as a Mid-Atlantic state.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/circ1316/html/images/fig4_1.gif —Preceding unsigned comment added by Htgrgwwew (talk • contribs) 03:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Both right[edit]
Both Pharos & 71Demon, are right. Under WikiProject U.S. regions guidlines (paraphrased) "states should not be locked into or out of a region." Both states, should probably be pink. The WikiProject hopes to update the maps, soon. In the meantime please see how you can help by visting the project page. Thanks. -JCarriker 05:35, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
Colours and appearance[edit]
I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions --Qirex 05:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Maryland as Mid-Atlantic[edit]
This state also has divided "loyalties" in terms of being classified as a Mid-Atlantic State, entirely. Maryland as is Virginia is officially a Southern state. Though they both are very much Northern in culture and economy especially in urban and suburban areas they are very still much Southern in their more rural regions and isolated regions. Geographically speaking these 2 states are at a "midway" point along the U.S. Atlantic coast. and thus should be the reason they are considered Mid-Atlantic. A states political history has nothing to do with is geography. I say either shade them both RED or stripe both but you can not divide the two, with such inner-weaved history, economy and culture. The Mid-Atlantic is definitely: Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, Washington, DC*, and West Virginia*.
- Um…. First off Maryland was a border state. Virginia had two of the capitals for the confederate army. What you're saying is in urban area's its northern and rural it's southern? Not really, if that was the case then Charlotte, Atlanta could be lumped with the north. It's the same deal in Virginia there are many transplants from other states and other countries primarily in Northern Virginia and the Hampton Roads, But is it fair to say its northern?
- Although WV & DC doesn't border the Atlantic Ocean.--Htgrgwwew (talk) 16:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
The regions are all defined by cultural affinity, and political and economic history, not simply geographical location. Otherwise Ohio and Michigan could not be considered Midwestern States when they lie in the east of the country. The Mid-Atlantic is definitely: New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania only. --22.214.171.124 13:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a sketchy so-called region, but PA is not even on the Atlantic to be mid-Altanitc and on NYC news, they always call the M.A. as the region to the far south of NYC. I think they may be putting NJ in there, but not specifying it, but they always speak of the M.A. as if it is another region and does not include NY. I think NYC see itself as it's own region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 04:58, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- The problem here is that, in trying to define a Mid-Atlantic region, we're grafting the Washington, DC area onto the Northeast, with which it has little in common. The demography, physical layout, appearance and historical growth pattern of the DC area more closely resemble those of Atlanta than a Northeastern city. Unlike every other so-called Mid-Atlantic city – but like Atlanta and many other Sunbelt cities – Washington has no history of heavy industry or high levels of turn-of-the-20th-century European immigration. It is growing robustly, not stagnantly, like the cities of the Northeast. Economically and culturally, it really is sui generis; but there is no more kinship with Philadelphia or New York than there is with Atlanta or, for that matter, San Francisco (both of which areas are more like Washington than Philadelphia or New York are). As such, the vast sprawl of metropolitan DC is an uncomfortable fit with the rest of the "Mid-Atlantic." This is why shoehorning Fredericksburg, Virginia, into the same region as, say, Scranton or Newark does not work well. 184.108.40.206 06:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)Essex9999
Virginia is absolutely a Southern State and has always been considered such as are both West Virginia and Maryland. Simply because it is midway down the Atlantic Coast does not make it a Mid Atlantic State. The Mid-Atlantic states have always been considered New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Virginia and West Virginia have little in common with New York, and Maryland only slightly more so as it is more urban thanks to the presence of the Baltimore-Washington metro area. --18.104.22.168 13:56, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
A quick Google search on Mid-Atlantic States shows 19 of the first 20 hits including Maryland in the region. Kmusser 14:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
To me, I always thought the Mideast reigon was New Jersey, Pennslvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware. New York was just Northeast, I couldn't really put in New England or the Mideast, and Virginia was too Southern to go in the Mideast.
Maryland and Virginia cant be categorized in the same. Virginia is under the southern gulf stream and has a more humid climate. Virginia grows cotton and the crepe myrtle tree range in all colors which is a southern staple and cannot be grown in Maryland without a lot of assistance so when it comes to comparing VA and MD you cant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Not Correct[edit]
Maybe I'm poorly informed, but as a Virginia resident, I have always been under the impression that the Mid-Atlantic region consists primarily of Maryland, Virginia and Delaware, and perhaps West Virginia, North Carolina, New Jersey and Pennsylvania-- the center-point of the region being Washington, D.C. Within Virginia, it is always referred to as such. For example, a local TV station or company might say "serving the Mid-Atlantic region for 75 years", etc. This classification is also geographically correct...just look at a map. Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York could all be considered a part of the Northeast, and New England (North and East from NYC) is a subset of the region. Something is definitely off with this article.
- What is here now is based on the traditional definition that you'll find in any dictionary. Including Virginia and West Virginia is common but certainly not universal, a quick google search found about 1/2 of the first 20 hits on "Mid Atlantic States" included them - so the current portrayal of them as "sometimes" states seems accurate to me. North Carolina was in 2 of those hits, while NJ and PA were in all of them. Kmusser 15:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- It seems clear that the most rarely included states are New York and New Jersey (almost always viewed as part of the NORTHEAST), and that Virgina and West Virginia are almost always included. Typing "mid-atlantic" into Google, the first page shows:
- AAA Mid-Atlantic-- referring to the region as "Delaware, Maryland, Washington DC, and parts of Virginia, Pennsylvania and New Jersey." (By the way, I live near Richmond, and I am a MEMBER of AAA Mid-Atlantic)
- The EPA-- "Region 3: The Mid-Atlantic Region, Serving Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia".
- ADAinfo.com-- refers to the "Mid-Atlantic Region (PA, DE, MD, VA, WV, and DC".
- The USGS-- refers to the mid-atlantic states as "Delaware, the District of Columbia, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia"
- It seems very obvious to me that the proper description of the region is "The region surrounding Washington DC, including Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia, Virginia, the District of Columbia, and OCCASIONALLY New York, New Jersey and North Carolina". When organizations as diverse as the AAA, the EPA, and the USGS agree, it is hard to understand the formulation in this article. If you aim your search at agencies of the federal government, I think you will find most of them define it in the same way the EPA does.
- In short, the article is simply wrong, and for some reason efforts to correct it are being resisted.
As a Marylander from Annapolis, if the phrase "Mid Atlantic State" is uttered, my mind thinks of Maryland and Virginia as the center, with Delaware and West Virginia. I might buy including Pennsylvania and North Carolina in my definition, but not New Jersey or New York. Hmmm.... Maybe it isn't easy to place these pesky "Border States." Perhaps the geographers here should take that into account.
- I think the definition of the Mid-Atlantic region depends on what region it borders to the north: New England or the Northeast. Both are commonly used as "top-level" subnational regions of the US, and both are fairly well-defined. The Northeast includes NY and NJ, but New England does not. If the Mid-Atlantic region borders New England, then it includes NY and NJ. Bordering "The South" to the south, the Mid-Atlantic region might include Maryland, and possibly Virginia, depending on how "The South" is defined. In systems that try to divide the nation into regions relatively equal in size, it is common to find a Mid-Atlantic region that doesn't include New York (it being in the Northeast) and does include Virginia. Traditional regions are a bit different. As a top-level region, New England is much more traditional than Northeast. Likewise, Virginia is traditionally considered a state of the South. This leaves the Mid-Atlantic as akin to the Middle Colonies (NY, NJ, PA, DE), plus, arguably, MD. The Encyclopedia Britannica defines the region as those 5 states, and points out one of the factors that unites them historically: high levels of ethnic diversity, relative to New England and the South. I'm not sure how well ethnic diversity could define the Mid-Atlantic states today, but for much of the history of the US, back into colonial times, the complex, multi-layered diversity of the region made a striking contrast to the relative homogeneity of New England and the "biracial" makeup of the early South. New York City is still famous for its ethnic diversity, while Pennsylvania's historic diversity can be seen in places like "Dutch Country". This was, I think, one of the most obvious distinguishing marks of the Mid-Atlantic region, for centuries. As with other regions of the US, there is a difference between traditional "historic" definitions and present-day classifications. Pfly 04:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Source for Reference[edit]
There is a group called OHMAR-- Oral History in the Mid-Atlantic Region (http://www.ohmar.org/about.html). It would seem they should know. Their site states: "Initially, OHMAR designated the states of Delaware, District of Columbia, Maryland, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia as the Mid-Atlantic Region. In 1987 OHMAR expanded its boundaries to include New York in its membership region." I have begun an edit of the main page. Although it is not sufficient, I believe it is far more accurate than what existed before, and the remainder of the article should follow from it, including history (specifically the founding of the US), geography, climate, and perhaps a section on the Chesepeake Bay.
Wikipedia has the answer[edit]
Standard Federal Regions
The ten standard Federal Regions were established by OMB (Office of Management and Budget) Circular A-105, "Standard Federal Regions," in April, 1974, and required for all executive agencies. In recent years, some agencies have tailored their field structures to meet program needs and facilitate interaction with local, state and regional counterparts. The OMB must still approve any departures, however.
- Region I: Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont
- Region II: New Jersey, New York, Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands
- Region III: Delaware, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia : THIS IS THE MID-ATLANTIC REGION.
- Region IV: Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee
- Region V: Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, Wisconsin
- Region VI: Arkansas, Louisiana, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma
- Region VII: Iowa, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska
- Region VIII: Colorado, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Utah, Wyoming
- Region IX: Arizona, California, Hawaii, Nevada (American Samoa, Guam, Northern Mariana Islands, Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands)
- Region X: Alaska, Idaho, Oregon, Washington
It seems clear that this is the generally accepted definition of the region, for a variety of purposes. I do not understand the resistance to what is clear from a multitude of sources.
- No one disagrees with the inclusion of that definiation, but it is not the only one. Regional boundaries are not set in stone, and they do vary from source to source including within th US goverment, the census bureau's classification of the Middle Atlantic States for example. -JCarriker 08:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- I would simply argue that any kind of research into the subject will show that the defnition I've advocated is overwhelmingly the most common, with other definitions being the exception.
- There are lots of different definitions for Mid-atlantic, I don't think any organization's definition should trump the dictionary definition. Also the Standard Federal Regions aren't a good example considering the OMB specifically chose not to give their regions names. Kmusser 19:20, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- Also is their any reason you removed all the rest of the content, including citations, from the article? Kmusser 19:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think the citations used, and the map, were simply not an accurate representation. I don't know how much more clear I can make it. Dictionary.com is hardly an authoritative source. This is just a case where I KNOW I'm right, and while I haven't done exhaustive research to back it up, what I did in a cursory fashion backed up exactly what I already knew. I would suggest if nothing else, that whoever edits the article in the future does more research than what appears to have been done previously. Again, I have no doubt in my mind that what I have put up there, while admittedly bare bones, is as close to definitive as you will get in terms of the basic facts.
- The OMB has in no way defined Region III as the "Mid-Atlantic Region" any more than it has defined Region II as the "Islands Region". Actually, the US Census recognizes the "Middle Atlantic States" as just New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania, although of course the normal definition is wider than that. I think the source of your misunderstanding about the traditional definition of "Mid-Atlantic" likely comes from the greater currency of the term in everyday speech in Virginia, especially as parts of Virginia have become more northern-oriented in recent years, and people have adopted a especial identification with this region.--Pharos 12:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The region described by the previous version of the article is the Northeast, minus New England. As I have already pointed out, numerous businesses, private organizations and government agencies define the Mid-Atliantic region as I have for purposes of their own operations. Once again, I live near Richmond, and after joining AAA at a downtown Richmond office, I became a member of AAA Mid-Atlantic. If you join the AAA in New York, you will not be a member of AAA Mid-Atlantic. That is just one example among many. Virginia has been referred to as both a part of the South and the Mid-Atlantic region within the state for years, and it has nothing to with "rejecting" the South or identifying with the Northeast. If you want to look at the Mid-Atlantic region as having a "focal point", it is Washington D.C., the Potomac River and the Chesepeake Bay. The fact that you have ignored the multitude of sources I cited indicates to me that you have a determination to conflate this region with the NORTHEAST, which is a separate thing. Again, I suggest strongly that more research be done before a further editing of the page is undertaken. I have provided far more sources in a short period of time than whoever originally wrote this page. The Mid-Atlantic region is NOT the portion of the NORTHEAST that is not a part of NEW ENGLAND. It appears that mistaken idea is what has led to the total innaccuracy of the previous version.
- I checked 3 different actual paper dictionaries and they all agreed with dictionary.com. You can claim that Webster's and the Census Bureau are wrong all you want, but they aren't, they are just using a different definition than you are. What you are not getting is that there are lots of definitions of "Mid-Atlantic" just like there are for all the U.S. regions. Yes it overlaps with the Northeast, so what, most of the regions overlap. As I said previously I did an extensive Google search and found popular usage split almost 50/50 between the dictionary/Census usage and your defintion, I still think the dictionary should be given precedence. I'm not ignoring your examples, they just aren't the only ones out there. Your definition is discussed, giving EPA and USGS as examples of groups that use it (personally I think they are less obscure than same of your examples) - that paragraph could be expanded, but I don't think this article should devolve into a list of who uses what definition, a couple examples of each should be plenty. Kmusser 13:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- Type either "mid-atlantic" or "mid-atlantic states" into Google. In doing so, I did not find more than a handful of references on the first 2-3 pages worth of links that did not include WV and VA. Those that DID mention NY were in the distinct MINORITY. If you are right and the whole rest of the world is wrong, there are a lot of very confused people and organizations out there. I think this article should be marked as unreliable or disputed until legitimate research and documentation has been done. As it stands now, the article is ridiculously innacurate and misleading. The description it gives would be accurate if you were describing the "Northeast", or maybe the "I-95 Corridor" or something along those lines. It is not representative of what the "Mid-Atlantic" region is. I started a new revision with slightly altered wording. Maybe the answer is to work towards some kind of middle ground, and ackowledge the fact that the defnition is not set in stone.
- Look the "whole rest of the world" is not wrong, and the U.S. Census is not wrong either. What we have described primarily is the traditional meaning of the term "Mid-Atlantic States". From the time of the "Middle Colonies" until the last couple of decades, Mid-Atlantic has only meant the region between New England and the South. Probably because of the tremendous development of the New York metro area in NY and NJ, the cultural connection between that area and less dense places like Pennsylvania and Delaware has grown less obvious, and the use of the term Mid-Atlantic has declined in everyday usage there. At the same time, the use of the term has extended southward, and sometimes now even has an exclusive southern meaning. The process behind this is actually made clear in your own words: "The region is distinguished primarily by its proximity to, and history in the founding of, the United States Government". Now, historically, DC was not a "big city" at all until the growth of the federal government after WWII, and did not really dominate the region in any way. It is only with the growth of the DC metro area that Virginia etc. has been referred to as "Mid-Atlantic", emphasizing the increasing integration of the area into the Eastern Seaboard economic powerhouse. It is only then that the exclusive Chesapeake Bay definition of the region has emerged. Now what we have to do in this article is explain both basic meanings in context, as well as the iterations etc.--Pharos 07:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Since you seem to be selective with your Google results I wrote down mine over at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kmusser/Sandbox - NY was included in 54 out of 110 hits, that's more than a handful. The definition used by all dictionaries and eductional sites that come up was DE,MD,NJ,NY,PA - that is the traditional definitition. If you come across "Mid-Atlantic" in a historical or academic context that is what people are talking about. The most common definition overall was DC,DE,MD,NJ,NY,PA,VA,WV which would suggest it leads in popular usage. I would support using that defintion in the article as long as both definitions are discussed. If what's really bugging you is the map, we could change that, I would support filling in VA and WV there.Kmusser 16:46, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's good that we have some progress. You must acknowledge that NY was only included in half of the results you found, fewer than VA and about the same as WV. I think while it should be ackowledged that the "traditional" definition relates to the Middle Colonies, it is clear that in modern use, the "Mid-Atlantic" has come describe, for most people who use it, the sort of "middle ground" between the Northeast, South and (to a lesser extent) the Industrial Midwest, which includes VA and WV, and de-emphasizes NY. The second paragraph in the "History" section is heading in what I believe to be the right direction, and the first paragraph under the list of states could (and probably should) include Norfolk, VA. I think a lot of the language about "diversity", "industrialism" and "urbanization" should go, as that is better suited to other regional definitions. On the whole, I think it is in the confusion of the "Mid-Atlantic" with what would properly be called the "Northeast", or in some newer constructions, "the I-95 corridor", or the "megalopolis", that the article goes astray.
- Without the language about "diversity", "industrialism" and "urbanization" there is nothing to explain why this region is a region, it just becomes an arbitrary grouping of states. The term "Mid-Atlantic" came about to describe an area that shared a similar history, demographics, and economy - without that description this article is pointless. It does overlapped alot with the Northeast - I don't have a problem with that, the terms have different roots, if they've evolved to come to describe a similar area - well, that happens. More googling shows that "northeast" often IS used to mean Mid-Atlantic+New England including here at Wikipedia. Personally I'll turn to the dictionary again for that and it gives me northeast = New England+NY which I think agrees with what you are trying to say AND shows that they overlap. I think Pharos above is correct and that this article should include a history of the term "Mid-Atlantic" and how it's changed. On the subject of Norfolk (or Richmond for that matter) I don't think that should be included because it does not share a similar history, etc. with the other cities mentioned - they are much more Southern in character and share more with Atlanta or Charlestown than Philadelphia, and most people I've met from there would be offended by suggesting that they are anything other than "Southern". Kmusser 15:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm going to have to continue to disagree, as I believe the term, as I stated above, has come to suggest the middle ground between "North" and "South", centered around Washington, D.C. If you are familiar with PA, you know that it is considerably different culturally from other states in the Northeast. Likewise, VA is unique among states in the "South" due to its deep ties to the federal government, going back to the founding. I'll leave it there, with the statement that I still believe the language I noted above is not representative. Hopefully it will eventually be corrected.
- Delaware is even less "southern" than Maryland and more borders the atlantic. Looking at a national U.S. map, Delaware seems to lie right at the midway point of the atlantic seaboard, maybe even a little north of center. It had never been a big tobacco producing state like Maryland and Virginia. Delaware north of the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal culturally and historically has been more mid-atlantic in appearance, while below the canal contains farms and is more rural and southern and character. Delaware was historically one of the middle colonies, and when the Mason-Dixon line was surveyed, the north-south portion has Penn's coat's of arms on the Delaware side as Delaware was never seen as fully independent until 1776, thus placing delaware on the "upper" side of the line. I have seen instances where Delaware is included in the northeast/mid atlantic on corporate regions while Maryland is included in the south/southeast by the same corporations. Delaware can only fail to be mid-atlatic in that it legally permitted slavery and Jim Crow laws.
Wikipedia does have the answer. It is the pictures all around the same location you found yours that you posted above. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census_Regions_and_Divisions.PNG#file
18.104.22.168 19:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)USMarineCorps1989
There's about three different definitions we're talking about here, the Northeast, the Mid-Atlantic (geographically) and the Mid-Atlantic (culturally). The northeast is usually defined as being from Maine to Washington DC. Virginia is rarely included as being part of the northeast (even if it has some northeastern influence). Boston, New York, Philadelphia, DC and to a much lesser extent Baltimore has always had longstanding heated rivalries with each other in sports, partially because they see themselves as part of the same Northeast region on the I-95. The Mid-Atlantic geographically is basically NY, NJ and PA, sometimes including Delaware and Maryland and occasionally WV. The Mid-Atlantic culturally (which is a newer concept) always includes Maryland, Virginia and DC and may sometimes include Delaware, PA and WV. Culturally you rarely hear NY described as being part of the Mid-Atlantic. After the Tri-State region, we identify with being part of the Northeast.
One More Reference[edit]
An article from the AP:
Mid-Atlantic Region Braces for More Rain[1]
D.C., Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia...
This article has improved, but it's still flying in the face of reality in a number of ways. The author(s) have some kind of North/South axe to grind that has no place in the definition in question. POV in the extreme. I'm fixing it again. If you want to keep fighting it, go ahead, but you're degrading the reliability of Wikipedia.
- Every textbook I've ever had in my scholastic career, defined the Mid-Atlantic as New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland. The citation provided in the article (from dictionary.com) and my copy of Webster's New World College Dictionary (4 ed) all concur with my grade school experiences; namely that New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and Maryland are the Mid-Atlantic States. I'm inclined to believe Noah Webster over Triple-A on this one.
- Also, your comments about New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania being part of the Northeast are undoubtedly true, however (applying this same logic) Virginia and West Virginia could and often are considered part of the South.
- Finally, you may want to consider signing your posts by adding ~~~~ at the end of your comments. It makes discussion easier. Sixtus LXVI 06:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
History VS. Geography[edit]
In determining what states are considered "Mid-Atlantic" We must first define Mid-Atlantic. Is it a cultural region? A Geographical region? Is it a Socio-economic region? Or all of the aforementioned? I am inclined to say that is a combination of them all. And judging by this critera alone I must state without any doubt that NY-NJ-PA-DE-MD-DC-VA & WV are all Mid-Atlantic States. Historically this is the region that nurtured a new nation. And as we speak of history; Maryland and Virginia (West Viginia) were only considered "Southern" states begining in the 19th Century. During which the nation was divided and "Northerners" were just in calling any one living in a state south of them "southerners". Which is literally true but as we look back further into history during colonization we discover that there were 4 english colonized regions. 1) New England Colonies 2) Middle Colonies (NY-NJ-PA) 3) Chesapeake Colonies (MD-VA) 4) Southern Colonies (Carolinas & Georgia). It wasn't until the tensions leading up to the civil war and the post-civil war era that we have this North-South divide. It is this divide and these old labels that hinder us from moving forward. Virginia as well as Maryland and WV are large, vast states. In these states one would be hard pressed to find a consensus from region to region. In defining what is Mid-Atlantic (not what is southern or northern) we must look at what is reality if we would like Wikipedia to be a non-bias source for information. And many organizations and individuals in the states of NY, NJ. PA, DE, MD, DC, VA, WV, and even rarely in NC. All one must do is thumb through a phone book and you'll see over 100 listing of companies doing business as Mid-Atlantic Auto Sales, Mid-Atlantic This, Mid-Atlantic That, and so on and so on. Simply turn on a radio or television you'll hear announcers claiming to be #1 in the Mid-Atlantic. Go to a local convention center and notice how many meeting are titled "The Annual Mid-Atlantic Car Show or Body Building Tournament, etc." Do a Google search, the evidence is everywhere. Maybe a few are stuck in the past and refuse to let go of the ideals of old. But in this modern day society if not the majority, atleast a plurality of Virginians and Marylanders and to some extent West Virginians and North Carolinians do consider themselves and their state part of the Mid-Atlantic Region. Which may be Northern or Southern in culture but definitely that grey area in between where they meet and blend. I think that all the states should either be solid red or striped to allow the reader to conclude what states they feel represent the Mid-Atlantic. I personally was born in Norfolk, VA and have rarely identified myself as being southern. I definitely feel that the urban corridor including the cities of New York City, Newark, Trenton, Philadelphia, Wilmington, Baltimore, Washington, Richmond, and Norfolk are definitely Mid-Atlantic cities.
MD VA[edit]
- I clearly belive that Maryland/Virginia are southern states!
Many People object to the idea of Virginia and Maryland being southern. Im from Maryland so I know. I hate it when people that don't know me come in my face with all that "yankee" crap...i aint no yankee...im myself! And I absolutly HATE when people say that VA an MD are rude, inconciterate, uneducated, boring, bad drivers. Im fun, nice, and filled with GREAT hospitality.
Next Subject: Civil war/M&D line.
- If everyone knows that MD and VA are BELOW the Mason Dixon Line... why do some people feel the need to say that MD and VA are Northern????
It's quite -how can i say- IDIOTIC! Yes, folks, I know that the MDL was not made to divide the north and the south, but It's pretty usefull to divide the two. Doncha think???...About the civil war...VA was apart of the confeds...i can't lie, BUT MD was FORSED to become apart of the union and most of the people wanted to be with the feds.(yuddah im sayin)...So anyways, like i was sayin, VA & MD are natrually South.
Subject 3: MD.
- Everyone knows that MD is not like the rest of the southern states-no accent(mostly), not many confed. flags, has northern-like cities, bad traffic etc.- but it is still SOUTHERN.
I mean dang, like many other southern states, we take pride in are lil southerness, we sometimes act a lil country, and we still TALK diffrent from the north...esspecially Dc/B-more area. CUT US SOME SLACK!
Final Subject: Overall.
- Over all, Maryland and Virginia are southern!
They have many southern charms too. Infact, we have great hospitaliy too! Don't worry, be happy. Even if your mad, you HAVE TO admit that maryland and virginia are atleast a TAD BIT southern. YEs, YEs, YEs, we do have many qualities like the north(aka bad traffic...lol), But you must admit(if youve been too maryland and virginia...NOT B-MORE or DC)that it is southern in some areas!
ps. dont post nasty negitive comments about Virginia or Maryland..okedoke allipokey...lolz
ps no 2. IF you ask a man at a gas station in Southern, MD.... you'll know that chu in the south. - Footballchik
ps3.... HOw can we be mid atlantic??? there are only 4 directions. "MId Atlantic" isnt one.
I never heard no one say VA aint the south because we grow cotton and have all shades of crepe myrtle trees which is a southern staple but I have heard a lot of people from Maryland call us country bumpkins,
You're simply a Marylander who considers him/herself a Southerner. Many Marylanders may consider themselves northerners and for you to just go ahead and say they are overall Southern makes you even more ignorant than people who say what you're contradicting. And sure, Baltimore/DC is just the central portion of the state. But here's reality: they dominate the state. The rest of the counties are very much irrelevant when you look at the fact that the overwhelming majority of Marylanders live in Baltimore/DC.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maryland"
American Heritage Dictionary definition[edit]
- Middle Atlantic States also Mid-Atlantic States A region of the eastern United States including New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and usually Delaware and Maryland.[2]
Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a place for doing original research. Articles should be based on reliable sources, not what you think or what some announcer on your local radio station says. To quote from Wikipedia's official policy, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments....As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication."[3] --JHP 03:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
If Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia (a reference work of articles on many subjects) shouldn't it reflect and convey the most recent, credible and accurate information available? And not just quote what some dictionary published in 1979 states? Even if the information is obtained from the most recent edition of what ever source, who's to say that they are not simply tranferring information from one edition to the next and reprinting it? Are the editors going out and doing the research, polling the people and finding out where today's consensus lies? Definitions change over time. What was considered one thing at a particular time may not have the same meaning over time. I would say there are plenty of credible sources that say VA and MD are Mid-Atlantic and Southern. Many people of the region identify themselves as residents of the Mid-Atlantic. And that is real. How can you call PA a Mid-Atlantic State and it doesn't even touch the Atlantic? --DLAW1979 09:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- The word "Atlantic" need not require a state to touch the ocean but merely be part of the "seaboard", however far inland that is. For example, the Census Bureau's "South Atlantic" region includes West Virginia. And in any case, since Delaware Bay is an estuary of the Atlantic Ocean, and the Delaware River is tidal as far north as Trenton, one could argue that Pennsylvania does "touch" the Atlantic. But it doesn't matter anyway. Pennsylvania has long been called a Mid-Atlantic state -- perhaps even the prototypical example. Pfly 05:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Mid-Atlantic References[edit]
If Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia (a reference work of articles on many subjects) shouldn't it reflect and convey the most recent, credible and accurate information available? And not just quote what some dictionary published in 1979 states? Even if the information is obtained from the most recent edition of what ever source, who's to say that they are not simply tranferring information from one edition to the next and reprinting it? Are the editors going out and doing the research, polling the people and finding out where today's consensus lies? Definitions change over time. What was considered one thing at a particular time may not have the same meaning over time. I would say there are plenty of credible sources that say VA and MD are Mid-Atlantic and Southern. Many people of the region identify themselves as residents of the Mid-Atlantic. And that is real. How can you call PA a Mid-Atlantic State and it doesn't even touch the Atlantic? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dlaw1979 (talk • contribs) 13:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC).
- Wikipedia standards strongly prefer referenced information over unreferenced information. Replacing referenced information with personal beliefs is unacceptable. See WP:Verifiability and WP:No original research. If information is truly credible and accurate, then it should be easy to find reliable sources. --JHP 01:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe We're Thinking to Hard[edit]
I'm from Virginia and personally my concept has been more influenced by the MWA (Mid-Atlantic Wrestling) version (which included North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia.)Which is actually surprisingly simple. Take the eastern seaboard and simply Look At The Middle. I mean when people think Mid-Atlantic they to think, "Middle Atlantic." Making the Mid-Atlantic up where the north begins and down where the south begins. My personal preference being Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, and maybe South Carolina. I just don't get why you would consider a state near the top of the U.S. in in the middle, unless we're looking at the whole North American continent which just makes this mind boggling confusing. - Tripodero 14:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC).
- Actually, the real Mid-Atlantic would be near the equator between the North Atlantic Ocean and the South Atlantic Ocean. The terms "New England", "Mid-Atlantic", and "South" go back to before the American Revolution. These are historical terms and don't necessarily reflect the United States as it is today. "Mid-Atlantic" refers to states between New England and the South. Prior to the Civil War, the South was considered to be everything below the Mason-Dixon line. Since the Civil War, the South has been considered to be the states that rebelled against the Union. --JHP 01:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
- I should also point out (again) that Wikipedia has an offical policy against original research. --JHP 01:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Two Mid-Atlantics[edit]
We're clearly talking about two different regions here. The 'traditional' Mid-Atlantic was the heart of industrialization in the Northeast, the locus of immigration, and the first part of the country to be considered an ethnic melting pot. New York is the (not necessarily geographic) center of this region, and it roughly conforms with the census designation (although these classifications may have different purposes than ours, so we're not bound by them). Essentially, this region is the old industrial core of the Northeast, and still the most densely populated part of that larger region.
The other Mid-Atlantic is the grouping of southern states around Washington, D.C. It makes no sense to posit an extension of the traditional term 'Mid-Atlantic' to include a state like Virginia. People who use this definition are clearly talking about an area between the Northeast and the lower South that's roughly centered around D.C., not about some region of the Northeast which Virginia has now come to be a part of.
These are two different definitions which may have some geographic overlap, but come from very different perspectives. The article treats the region as some vague area that may or may not include VA, but it's only trying to incorporate another definition which excludes the core part of the first definition, resulting in something that no one agrees on, and doesn't describe a culturally, socially, or economically discreet region of the US.
So why not have two articles? One for the census division - or the area that roughly corresponds to it - and another for the D.C.-centered one? Or at least two sections in one article. I don't see any other way to be faithful to the way the terminology is used in the real world.
Also, for what it's worth, as a New Yorker, I identify with the Tri-State region (NY, NJ, and parts of CT) first, and then some vague notion of the Northeast that gets murkier as you move farther from the city. Mid-Atlantic is NEVER a term you'll hear on the radio here. So it seems like it's picked up more of a colloquial usage in the D.C. area, and retains a sort of academic one up here.
- I agree with you. Either this article needs to be split in two or a consensus needs to be reached. The U.S. census divides the Northeast region into New England and the Mid-Atlantic. The Mid-Atlantic consists of New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania according the the census. To me this seems like the best definition, as it is not colloquial and has a basis in historical fact. I was surprised to not even see New York have a mention in this article... It is currently without a region on wikipedia.
- The current version of the article seems to give no weight at all to the USCB regions (or the OMB ones, though since those seems to lack official names, I'm not sure how much they help). Given the lack of other references for this article, that seems most unsatisfactory. I'd suggest working the USCB's "Middle Atlantic" in here, and trying to find official, or at least reliable sources for usage of the other suggested definitions. Alai 14:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
your incorrect. This Mid Atlantic is centered around Baltimore 188.8.131.52 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC).
Upstate New York[edit]
Isn't Upstate New York too close to the top to be called "Mid Atlantic"? I'd say keep Downstate New York solid while having Upstate only as striped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:12, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
New Opening Paragraph[edit]
The boundaries of a particular region are often contentious -- they vary from person-to-person and from organization-to-organization. Considering today's poltical climate, I would define the Mid-Atlantic as including Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania. But my definition means nothing. What matters is that the United States Census Bureau defines the Mid-Atlantic as New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania. The article makes absolutely no mention of the Census Bureau's definition, despite the fact that most other regional articles stick to the Census Bureau's definition. So I've remedied that: the opening paragraph now explicitly defines the region according to the Census Bureau's definition, while still mentioning alternate definitions.
On a related note, volunteers are needed to edit the Mid-Atlantic map so that it corresponds with the Census Bureau defintion. New Jersy, New York, and Pennsylvania should be red, while Delaware, Maryland, and Virginia should be striped. I'd do this myself, but I lack the appropriate software. "Country" Bushrod Washington 06:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Better Than It Was[edit]
First, I'd like to apologize for my aggressive tone earlier in the discussion (I was the one throwing around all the bold text and caps). For some reason the intransigence of some in seeing my points kind of hacked me off. Second, the article as it now stands has improved somewhat. I think what it ought to reflect ultimately is that there is a traditional definition, and a modern common usage which has diverged from that traditional definition. That seems to be the clear picture when you look at the discussion as a whole. The change in usage actually makes a lot of sense, if you consider that the "Middle Colonies" definition predated the statehood of Florida in 1845. Over time, it's not surprising that people would start using "Mid-Atlantic" to define an area further south, since there is a clear common-sense connotation of it being the states (previously colonies) on the Atlantic seaboard roughly in the middle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 07:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Major Cities[edit]
What constitutes a major city? I would say state capitals and cities with a population of 100,000 and up. Accordingly, I added Albany, Allentown, Elizabeth, Erie, Harrisburg, Jersey City, Paterson, and Yonkers to the list. Any thoughts? "Country" Bushrod Washington (talk) 00:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds about right (could go as low as 50,000 for a smaller region than Mid-Atlantic). Noting of course, that the list will grow with POV-edits adding the suburb in which they live as a "city", so it'll need regular pruning. Tedickey (talk) 10:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed; my suburb of Buffalo has 120,000+ people but certainly isn't a major city. We might even want to cut the list to 200,000+ cities - towns not allowed - as well as state capitals, to keep it shorter--CastAStone//₵₳$↑₳₴₮ʘ№€ 16:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- I think including only municipalities incorporated as cities goes without saying in a list of "Major Cities." Towns, boroughs, villages, townships, and census-designated places, no matter how large, would be excluded. I think the list works as is, but I'd be agreeable to listing only cities with 200,000+ if that were the consensus. "Country" Bushrod Washington (talk) 22:57, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Done. Now the list is: Albany, Buffalo, Harrisburg, Jersey City, New York City, Newark, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Rochester, and Trenton. "Country" Bushrod Washington (talk) 23:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Baltimore was removed from the list and I don't understand why as it meets the requirements of size and is certainly in the Mid-Atlantic region. Can someone expain? Thanks.--Teri (talk) 18:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I fully believe the people who compile these Wikipedia pages have never heard of the U.S. Census, nor have they heard of the term Large Metropolitan Area, which is comprised of any Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) over 500,000 people. You cannot and should not take city proper populations into account when dealing with the Northeast, as the city limits are often archaic and do not represent the urbanized area.
The Mid-Atlantic's major Metropolitan Statistical Areas, according to the U.S. Census 2000 are:
New York-Wayne-White Plains MSA 11.2 Mil Newark-Union, NJ-PA 2.09 Mil Albany-Schenectady-Troy, NY .82 Mil Buffalo-Niagra Falls, NY 1.1 Mil Harrisburg-Carlisle, PA .5 Mil Philadelphia 3.8 Mil Camden, NJ 1.1 Mil Wilmington, DE .65 Mil Allentown-Bethlehem-Easton, PA .74 Mil Baltimore, MD 2.5 Mil Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA 3.7 Mil
These are clearly the region's large cities, and should be listed as so on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JSD8675 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Noting that the given table is Table 2b. Population in Metropolitan and Micropolitan Statistical Areas Sorted Separately and Their Geographic Components in Alphabetical Order and Numerical and Percent Change for the United States and Puerto Rico: 1990 and 2000, and does not mention mid-Atlantic, your statement does not relate to the region. Let's leave Puerto Rico out of it, for instance. Tedickey (talk) 18:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I need the states in the mid Atlantic for my review which is due tomorrow!
I am awesome cuz i can write on here!!!! CINNNAAAYYYY!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
yall all wrong!!!!! the atlantic is pensylvania, deleware, maryland, rode island, new york, virgina, west virgina,new jersy. goodness! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:39, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
This article is oftentimes self-contradictory. It seems to be hard-pressed to always count New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania as "Mid-Atlantic", but its own references disagree with this point. The fact is, depending upon the source, it can include some or all of those states, at the expense of, or alongside other states such as Maryland, Delaware, and others. The census bureau is not an authoritative determinant of what is an "American region"; for them, geographic regions are merely demographic expedients, with no basis in history or culture.
I think it is clear to see that there are really at least two definitions (and there are two as cited to this effect in the "Definition" section): one is centered around the non-New-England Northeastern states (New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania); and the other is centered around the border states that don't fit neatly into definitions for either "Northern" or "Southern" states (Maryland, Delaware, sometimes West Virginia). Either definition can also include members of the others, and possibly members of other groups (e.g. the traditional North or South) altogether. It seems that often, these two groups are combined (see the 1897 map, for instance), and that is probably the best route to go with the article, while at the same time making clear that there are different definitions for various reasons or applications.
I've reworded the lead and the definition to bring the text in line with what the cited sources actually say. In the lead I reordered the states, in alphabetical order, not in favor of any one definition.
The image needs to be edited to bring it in concordance with what this article's references say as well. I suggest that either: (1) Two different colors are used to represent the two differing definitions, with cross-hatching to indicate "cross-over" states; (2) Maryland and Delaware are solidified; (3) or all states included by any definition are solidified. Strikehold (talk) 07:27, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
- I've done a lot of research into this and it's very difficult to find any scholarly definition of the term. It seems like it's a vernacular term. In the scholarly/encyclopedic sources that I did find, all mention how the Mid-Atlantic is a) ill-defined and b) has no sense of a unified identity. But yeah, I agree that there is a "Chesapeake Mid-Atlantic" and a "Northeast outside of New England" Mid-Atlantic. Unfortunately, we don't do original research here, so until and unless we find some sources that make this distinction (if anyone has any, it would be very helpful), I think the article necessarily will have to be vague. The map has to change, I agree. I like the second option--until we have some evidence of "two mid-Atlantics" then all the states should probably be shown in solid red to match the 1897 map.--Pom1981 (talk) 13:01, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Interesting....About Virginia[edit]
This is just a strange article to me….Richmond and Danville Virginia were the capitals for the Confederate Army, or known as the Capital's of the South. So is this a new official region by the United States Census? I must have some confusion with the Northeast and southeast. Hmmm
And allot of people seem to consider the space in-between Virginia and North Carolina to be the mid point, so by most peoples point of view that would technically make North Carolina the Mid Atlantic as well.
Also it states on the state website (Virginia.gov) that Virginia is the mid point between New York and Georgia……..Ok…….so what about the exact mid point between Maine and Florida? The eastern coastline doesn't start with New York and end with Georgia?
There has to be reasoning to this, if there is such thing as a distinct Mid-Atlantic culture then there has to be some southern similarities between the northern parts of the region (Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey). I have NEVER been anywhere in Pennsylvania and felt as if I were in the south. Even in Appalachia there are major differences between the PA side of the mountains and the Virginia's side of Appalachia. --Htgrgwwew (talk) 04:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's not that strange, really. The Mid-Atlantic is not the same thing as the Northeast. It's an in-between region that includes parts of the North and South. The northern boundary is strictly defined as being outside of New England. The southern boundary is not so well defined. And a few people do in fact consider North Carolina to be Mid-Atlantic. --Pom1981 (talk) 13:58, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Obviously, Virginia is a Southern state, but it is also a Mid-Atlantic one. They shouldn't be seen as mutually exclusive. Western parts of VA (including the Shenandoah Valley) were settled by Germans (including a few Jews) and later Scots-Irish, both of whom came from Pennsylvania. Northern Virginia, as we all know, has an urban/suburban culture that is not at all dissimilar from the one that stretches up to Boston. Hampton Roads, similarly, because of the military presence, has a distinctly "Mid-Atlantic" or mixed-Southern-Northeastern-Other culture. The mid-Atlantic is becoming our "national" region, in a way. --Pom1981 (talk) 13:58, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- So Virginia is not all that dissimilar from Boston???? I have NEVER heard a Tidewater accent or Piedmont accent above Maryland. It's a different planet when you compare Richmond, Danville, Roanoke, or Abington to Boston. I could see maybe the immediate suburbs outside of DC having similarities but besides that…..--Htgrgwwew (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't talking about the Tidewater. I said Northern Virginia. And no, they do not speak like Bostoners, but then, neither do New Yorkers nor Philadelphians nor Baltimoreans. The mid-Atlantic has a number of dialects.--Pom1981 (talk) 15:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah I think I read that too fast earlier, I got you though. But see people in New Orleans speak with an old Brooklyn accent so its all mixed up all over the place I guess. I mean really (IMHO) there are people in the hills of NC that have accents that sound almost bizarrely British.--Htgrgwwew (talk) 02:31, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- And as far as being in PA and never feeling like you're in the South. That's subjective. I've been to parts that are entirely similar to the Appalachian parts of the Upper South. It's only natural, since they're the same people! Descended from Scots-Irish immigrants who arrived in Philadelphia or Baltimore. That region of the South was settled through Pennsylvania, where the Great Appalachian Valley and Great Wagon Road began. --Pom1981 (talk) 13:58, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Part of my family is from PA, the rest of my family is from WV. I have seen both sides and they are very DIFFERENT. Speech patterns, culture, everything is different besides the mountains. I would even go as far as saying SW Virginia is different than WV in ways.--Htgrgwwew (talk) 15:07, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- It depends on what part of PA and what your family's heritage is. SW Virginia may be different from WV in ways, I have no doubt. But they are more similar to each other than those parts of the country that did not see significant Scots-Irish migration, for instance, Upstate New York (which happens to be geographically in the Appalachians, but not part of "Appalachia" the culture region; it has a different history, with more industrialization, and was settled by different people--mostly by the Dutch, English, Puritan New Englanders and later Irish and Italians). --Pom1981 (talk) 15:39, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
The "Mid-Atlantic" region is probably the most ambiguos in the country, but 99% of the time includes: DC, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey. West Virginia and Virginia are also included sometimes, and sometimes NJ is excluded. In Germantown, MD, where I live, is the headquarters for the "Mid-Atlantic Credit Union." Don't know about the other states, but Maryland's government almost ALWAYS defines itself as Mid-Atlantic. Generally, the Mid-Atlantic are simply the Northeast states that are not in New England (DC-NY).
Now, Virginia is SOMETIMES called Mid-Atlantic primarily in the DC Metro Area, since numerous local businesses operate in DC, MD, and VA, and the culture is somewhat similar. But, Virginia is undeniably Southern, and is considered a Southern state outside of the DC Area. Yeah, NoVa might be "different" but once you pass Fredericksburg on I-95 and see the other 95% of VA, you'll understand why VA contributed more to the Confederacy than any other Southern state. While VA might be in the Mid-Atlantic, it is definitely not also in the Northeast.
The CB's definitions are antiquated, and aren't really considered THE official regions in everyday use. For instance they put Missouri in the MidWest although it is very much considered a Southern state. The CB (or someone citing them) is basically the only organization considering Maryland or Delaware Southern.
And, oh yeah, Pennsylvania is in no way, shape, or form Southern. This is the first time I've even heard that suggested. The ONLY thing PA shares with the South is the fact that it is big and mostly rural. That's it. I wouldn't even call WV "Southern" since the panhandle (and Western MD) look just like Pennsylvania, while the larger portion of the state to the South looks more like Virginia, so it's split. 007bond (talk) 23:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- I never suggested that Pennsylvania was Southern. Actually, it's the other way around. Much of the South is Pennsylvanian. If you read about the patterns of settlement and the cultural history of the US, much of the Upper South, including parts of Virginia, is Pennsylvannian (not Tidewater Virginian) in origin, and this began in the 1700s.
- see these maps:
- Diffusion of Midland Culture
- Colonial Hearths
- That's not to say that it's purely Pennsylvanian, but the roots are there. It's responsible in part for the old Tuckahoe-Cohee split within the South. The history and culture of this part of the country is very complicated, needless to say.--Pom1981 (talk) 13:08, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well that's true...but the culture and speech patterns are quite different. Im just saying lets take a common Virginian pronunciation of house which is anywhere from "hoowse", "hauos", which is actually an old pronunciation from Scotland, and Northern Ireland. A Pennsylvanian will say thing like "yous", "youse", "youns", "younz" V.S. Southeastern/Southwestern Y'all. Or like saying "dahntahn"="downtown" which I have never heard in WV, VA, DE, MD. Well wait.....I take the Delaware part back, ive heard some jersey and Pennsylvania influence there...
- Virgil Goode is a good example for old-south Virginia accent.
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbgFv0fb5Eo
- --Htgrgwwew (talk) 23:31, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Wow, I've never heard an accent like that. Most of the R-dropping Southern dialects I've heard were from Charleston or Savannah. I'm guessing he speaks the Virginia Piedmont Dialect.
- One of the most interesting Mid-Atlantic accents was Tom Kean Sr.'s. I heard him during the 9/11 Commission hearings. Public radio had a special on it with linguist William Labov to figure out what the heck it was.
- Anyway, another way of getting a handle on the North/South division: The Sweet Tea Mason-Dixon Line. lol.--Pom1981 (talk) 00:34, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Traditionally, the Mid-Atlantic States were the states that were formerly called the Middle Colonies - New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, and generally Maryland. The Potomac was the dividing line between the South and the Mid-Atlantic, although an argument could be made for the Mason-Dixon Line. The distinction was cultural and religious, as much as geographic. It goes back to the original European settlements by the Dutch and the Swedes, and the Calverts' Catholic settlement in Maryland. It continued with the subsequent diversity of colonists' and immigrants' origins, as compared to Puritan New England and the Anglican/Presbyterian South.
"...and generally Maryland" - This is absolutely false. This is not even close to true. Yes, culturally, Maryland is heavily Mid-Atlantic today, but you cannot re-write historical fact. Maryland was decidedly, completely, and exclusively always in the same colonial category as Virginia- and that category is The Southern Colonies. You may also insert "Chesapeake Colonies" - which describes VA and MD. Maryland's early economy was based primarily off the cash crop of tobacco and the proliferation of slave labor. Look up ANY source and I will guarantee you that you will find this to be historical fact. Maryland was never considered a Middle Colony, however Delaware was often described as both a Middle and Southern Colony. Maryland has only become a majority Mid-Atlantic state within the past 150 years.--220.127.116.11 (talk) 02:38, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The inclusion of Virginia in the Mid-Atlantic is a development of the latter half of the 20th Century. It stems from the regional redefinitions by the Federal Government, particularly the Census Bureau, as well as the growth and cultural diversification of the Washington, DC metropolitan area. The newcomers in Northern Virginia often had little or no cultural affinity with Southerners, and may have consciously or unconsciously rejected thinking of themselves as living in the South. As the DC area grew out and became more heavily weighted in Virginia's population, the newcomers' preference for being in the Mid-Atlantic rather than the South gradually shifted Virginia's identification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 16:07, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
The gallery of photos seems pointless. I suggest it be removed as most of it is extraneous and terribly general. ~ ωαdεstεr16«talkstalk» 19:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, I was just going to say. A bagel? A pretzel? Sure these are foods that are to whatever degree associated with the region, but their inclusion doesn't lend any EV. Tomdobb (talk) 12:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- And the photo of Niagara Falls is of Horseshoe Falls on the Canadian side. Unless Toronto became a mid-Atlantic state that doesn't make terribly much sense. Tomdobb (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Agree. I thought the same thing. Of all the prestigious private and public universities, why are Georgetown and Princeton shown in particular? Of all the places of worship, why St. Patrick's Cathedral? Of all the interesting topographic features, why Whiteface Mountain, a rather minor prominence (it's the fifth highest in New York state, and not even close to the highest in the region)? The pretzel, bagel, and (probably) pizza were invented Europe, not this region. Currently, too many tangentially related pictures. Gallery might have a use to indicate some things truly intimately connected to the region or which were innovations from there (say, the rowhouse and skipjack), but needs significant revamping. Strikehold (talk) 13:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- And the photo of Niagara Falls is of Horseshoe Falls on the Canadian side. Unless Toronto became a mid-Atlantic state that doesn't make terribly much sense. Tomdobb (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
So, any objection to me removing the entire gallery? Anybody is welcome to try to fit any of those images into prose, but galleries should be used minimally anyway. ~ Wadester16 (talk) 15:15, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Probably might as well. I say remove with no prejudice against recreating a gallery as long as it has standards for inclusion (i.e. first use of something was in the Mid-Atlantic or the most prominent example of something from the region, like highest point, etc.) Strikehold (talk) 15:25, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds good. wadester16 | Talk→ 15:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
The Chesapeake[edit]
For all my life living on the Eastern Shore of Maryland I've always identified the Mid-Atlantic as Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, These states are more northern in Urban areas and its rural areas especially del/md arnt southern theyre either appalachian or tidewater, two distinctly different things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 00:07, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Lower case[edit]
Seeing a news article about a major snow storm hitting the "mid-Atlantic states" (with a lower-case initial "s"), I looked at this article, and found, among other things, these section headings:
- The 'Typically American' region (with a capital initial T even though the long quote justifying the name of the section used a lower-case t)
- Cities and Urban Areas (capital U, capital A, a clear-cut violation of WP:MOS)
- Combined Statistical Areas (linking to the article on combined statistical areas, whose title uses lower case)
- Large Cities (capital C, another such violation)
- State Capitals (another)
And within the article, all uses of the phrase mid-Atlantic states use a lower-case initial s although the article's titles uses a capital initial S.
So among other edits, I changed the title of the article to mid-Atlantic states with a lower-case initial s.
It appears that many many links to the article result from the use of template:United States topics in very many articles. So I fixed the link from that template. But when you click on "what links here", those are still shown linking to the old title, and they will keep doing that for about 24 hours, I think. The next task is to fix the other links. Which ones are those? How many are there? Guess what: there's no way to tell! Wikipedia lacks that technology! We just have to wait about 24 hours and look at "what links here" again. Michael Hardy (talk) 13:44, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- The process goes faster if you update the templates which pass most of the links (I did the obvious ones) Tedickey (talk) 14:45, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Map does not match definition![edit]
I have tried to make the definition more closely match the map and common sense- but to no avail.
Presently, our map shows all mentioned states, EXCEPT New York, as having a solidly dark red portion of the map- representing the areas that can MOST be regarded as Mid-Atlantic. I, for one, agree with the map. If ANYONE conducts a simple Google search or poll of residents, he or she will clearly come to the conclusion that New York is mentioned LESS than Virginia as Mid-Atlantic. New York is almost always referenced to as ,plainly, the Northeast, not Mid-Atlantic. This applies especially to any part of New York outside of NYC.
People keep reversing my edit to include New York with the "sometimes" states of VA and WV by claiming that I do not have the sources to change. New York is DEFINITELY a "sometimes" state- it is NOT included in the Mid-Atlantic nearly a fraction of the time MD, DE, PA, DC, and even VA are. What is laughable is that we do not have the sources to leave it as is! This is especially true since our MAP contradicts our DEFINITION. I will keep changing it to match our map, until someone either stops reversing these proven edits or edits the map to match our definition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 15:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- As long as you continue to rely upon unreliable sources (in this and other topics), you'll find people disagreeing with your opinions. Tedickey (talk) 21:03, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- My opinions have been upheld throughout my entire editing history. Take a look. How are my sources "unreliable sources"? I never even stated which sources I used! And guess what- there were NO SOURCES CITED for the previous definition. How am I any more at fault than the person who took the liberty to post the previous subjective definition of the Mid-Atlantic? This is laughable. All I was doing was matching OUR MAP with OUR DEFINITION. I encourage you to do a simple Google search for "Mid-Atlantic" ..... click images.... I can assure you that New York is just as, if not less, present than Virginia is in ALL of the definitions offered. These maps and definitions come from a slew of credible sources. If you're looking for me to cite every single map, I will not do so, because you still wouldn't be satisfied. You also have a set of eyes, I assume, so you can take a look for yourself. If someone edits the map and makes New York have a DARK RED section, instead of both VA and WV having one, I will shut up and deal with the fact that people like you take issue with common sense. --18.104.22.168 (talk) 01:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Reading through your edits, I don't see any particular evidence to support your assertion that your opinions were "upheld". Relying on your subjective impression of google hits is one aspect of relying upon unreliable sources. And your comments above drift into uncivil regions. Tedickey (talk) 08:12, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- You need to read a little deeper. Every edit was eventually upheld, take a look the page histories. How are Google hits "unreliable"? Google is the most comprehensive search engine in the world, and it yields plenty of credible sources. This is pretty funny seeing as my search turned up government websites. Where are your sources to dispute me? You still never addressed my other points about the map not matching, about the previous definition being both uncited and subjective - probably because there is no dispute. Uncivil regions? You made an untrue claim that my edits have been overturned. I was being sarcastic, like you were being subtly in your previous post. I'm sorry I go all-out when I do something and not just hint around my frustration. --220.127.116.11 (talk) 11:49, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Australia & Canada included?[edit]
The chart's reference to population includes a reference to Canada and Australia. I'm confused as to why. Jnmwiki (talk) 08:43, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Albany: a coastal city or an interior city? (with some off-topic discussion about ports) (sic)[edit]
Care to share the link to the 200,000 Google hits? I've tried to recreate that but no terms I could think of brought me to similar results. upstateNYer 22:36, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
- albany seaport. Hits for "interior city"/"interior cities" are very few - looks as if the term isn't well-defined. In the context of Wikipedia, its use is likely to be WP:OR TEDickey (talk) 23:54, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
- The context in the article is "coastal cities such as..." vice "interior cities such as...". Based on that, Albany is clearly an interior city. As for the 'albany seaport' search, the first few pages center around south street seaport and random connections to Albany (the city) and Albany Street in New York City (which is near South Street Seaport). When you conduct a more appropriate search, such as 'albany rensselaer "new york" seaport' (since the port of albany is actually known as the Port of Albany-Rensselaer), you get 10,000 hits, most of which—again—revolve around NYC. I think, especially because of the context, this is clearly a common sense issue. upstateNYer 00:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Are you going to find a reliable source, rather than repeat your opinion? TEDickey (talk) 00:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- For instance, here is a use which clearly distinguishes between seaports (which Albany is) and "interior city". According to the distinction which you are making, Baltimore is an interior city. TEDickey (talk) 00:20, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's running on the assumption that Albany is a seaport, when in fact the experts call it a river port. The comparison to Baltimore is unfounded because Baltimore is unquestionably a deepwater seaport, located on a harbor, not a river. Buffalo, which is included in that list of inland cities, actually has a seaport, presumably because it is located on Lake Erie. Although I really don't think the terminology is, let's say, completely agreed-upon. For example, Encyclopedia Britannica describes Albany as an inland seaport (if you don't have a premium membership, the quote is "The capital of the state of New York lies on the west bank of the Hudson River, 145 miles (233 kilometers) north of New York City. It is an inland seaport and a center of trade, government, and industry."), which, based on this discussion, should be mutually exclusive; I think the term "seaport" is just used generally in many contexts (probably the reason why seaport and river port both redirect to port). Albany is an inland city because it sits on a river, not a coast. It actually sits on the only sizable inland pine barrens sand dunes in the United States (if you don't like that source, this book makes multiple references to Albany and the surrounding area being inland: [4], "inland seas" (see Lake Albany), pages 37 and 29 - not free view, but the context is clear). So if common sense didn't make the point previously, I think this should, which is why I made the revert. If you'd like, I can have the main author of Port of Albany-Rensselaer (a GA) weigh in as well. upstateNYer 02:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- To add, the Port of Albany-Rensselaer is a member of the Inland Distribution Network, making it a "key inland site for the distribution network". And just to reitorate, the article simply makes the division between a coastal city and a non-coastal city. Regardless of all this discussion, I think we can agree that Albany is not a coastal city, and based on the context, that would make it an interior city (because I have yet to find a specific geographic definition for "interior city"); I think the author of the article meant nothing more than: "Hey, it ain't on the ocean, people." upstateNYer 02:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- That's running on the assumption that Albany is a seaport, when in fact the experts call it a river port. The comparison to Baltimore is unfounded because Baltimore is unquestionably a deepwater seaport, located on a harbor, not a river. Buffalo, which is included in that list of inland cities, actually has a seaport, presumably because it is located on Lake Erie. Although I really don't think the terminology is, let's say, completely agreed-upon. For example, Encyclopedia Britannica describes Albany as an inland seaport (if you don't have a premium membership, the quote is "The capital of the state of New York lies on the west bank of the Hudson River, 145 miles (233 kilometers) north of New York City. It is an inland seaport and a center of trade, government, and industry."), which, based on this discussion, should be mutually exclusive; I think the term "seaport" is just used generally in many contexts (probably the reason why seaport and river port both redirect to port). Albany is an inland city because it sits on a river, not a coast. It actually sits on the only sizable inland pine barrens sand dunes in the United States (if you don't like that source, this book makes multiple references to Albany and the surrounding area being inland: [4], "inland seas" (see Lake Albany), pages 37 and 29 - not free view, but the context is clear). So if common sense didn't make the point previously, I think this should, which is why I made the revert. If you'd like, I can have the main author of Port of Albany-Rensselaer (a GA) weigh in as well. upstateNYer 02:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Regarding the last comment about "it ain't on the ocean", the statement is clear enough that it's distinguishing cities which have no ready access to the sea from those which do. Seaports do. Please focus on finding reliable sources to support your position, rather than repeating your opinions TEDickey (talk) 11:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Albany is also, as noted in Port of Albany-Rensselaer, a port of entry (you may want to become familiar with the term, and see how it relates to this discussion). However, most of the paragraph where you digress into river ports can be struck-through, since it contains no pertinent information. TEDickey (talk) 13:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- What I came to realize is that this discussion gets us nowhere because the actual statement in the article makes absolutely no reference to ports whatsoever. The fact that Albany has a port—or doesn't, if the case were—is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the city is interior from the coast and that a large immigrant base helped transform the area. Albany was a center of transportation for most of the 19th century: it was the eastern terminus of the Erie Canal, it was located at the north end of the navigable Hudson River, it offered the first regularly scheduled railroad service in the US, it was on the first steamboat line, it was the turnpike center of the state early in the century, and it opened the first municipal airport in the country in 1908; these only happened because of immigrant labor and investment. So, bringing us back to where we should be, the question remains: is Albany a coastal city or an interior city, based on the context of the sentence? upstateNYer 13:42, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Albany is also, as noted in Port of Albany-Rensselaer, a port of entry (you may want to become familiar with the term, and see how it relates to this discussion). However, most of the paragraph where you digress into river ports can be struck-through, since it contains no pertinent information. TEDickey (talk) 13:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Rather than relying upon your opinion of what constitutes an "interior city", you should look for reliable sources to base the discussion upon. As I noted, googling on "seaport 'interior city'" finds several useful sources which distinguish the two. There may be other useful searches to further this discussion. TEDickey (talk) 14:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Negative. It's your turn to produce evidence. I gave you sources above proving that Albany is considered "inland". What I need from you in return is proof that 1) Albany is not an interior or inland city and, if you want to still harp on seaports, then 2) why having a seaport makes any difference with respect to being an inland/interior city. By your definition of "seaport", Buffalo is not an interior city. Do you agree with that? So far the only source you've given me (other than reciting google hits which, alas, is not a RS) is a 1912 book that uses the term "seaport" based on its general definition; you have yet to offer a technical definition of seaport that distinguishes it from any other type of port. Once you fulfill needs 1) and 2), we can talk, but until then I have RSs on my side and you do not. upstateNYer 14:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, your 1912 source states "...to have the Fair held in an interior city rather than at a city on the seacoast...", which clearly separates the two. It makes the connection that a seaport must be on a seacoast. I'll say it again, "Hey, it ain't on the ocean, people." upstateNYer 14:21, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Negative. It's your turn to produce evidence. I gave you sources above proving that Albany is considered "inland". What I need from you in return is proof that 1) Albany is not an interior or inland city and, if you want to still harp on seaports, then 2) why having a seaport makes any difference with respect to being an inland/interior city. By your definition of "seaport", Buffalo is not an interior city. Do you agree with that? So far the only source you've given me (other than reciting google hits which, alas, is not a RS) is a 1912 book that uses the term "seaport" based on its general definition; you have yet to offer a technical definition of seaport that distinguishes it from any other type of port. Once you fulfill needs 1) and 2), we can talk, but until then I have RSs on my side and you do not. upstateNYer 14:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Rather than relying upon your opinion of what constitutes an "interior city", you should look for reliable sources to base the discussion upon. As I noted, googling on "seaport 'interior city'" finds several useful sources which distinguish the two. There may be other useful searches to further this discussion. TEDickey (talk) 14:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- You provided sources proving only that Albany is considered a riverport, which following your argument leads to the conclusion that riverports such as Philadelphia and New York are not on the coastline (or inconsistent, if you choose which are riverports). For the definition of "seaport", I'm using the dictionary of course. As I noted, there are several uses contrasting seaports versus interior city. You have provided no evidence that there are seaports which are interior cities. TEDickey (talk) 14:36, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- If you want to deny the existence of RS links above (not related to ports), by all means, deny reality. I will continue to wait for evidence that Albany is not an interior city, and that having a seaport has any bearing on being an inland city. You make reference to the dictionary definition; Oxford says: "a town or city with a harbor for seagoing ships". Since most (if not all) ports are made to get their ships to sea, then all those ports are seaports (the only realistic exception I can think of is if you shipped something from, say, Chicago to Buffalo, and never experienced the ocean; but it's quite unlikely that those ports never ship to the ocean). If you think there's a more technical definition in use by the experts on ports, then provide it. Until then, you seem to have led this discussion to a stop because you are providing no real evidence for your claims. upstateNYer 14:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Albany as an inland city: Hist. of Alb. NY, Enc. Brit., Fish & Wildlife Service, The Business Review, howstuffworks, in addition to the links above. upstateNYer 14:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- If you want to deny the existence of RS links above (not related to ports), by all means, deny reality. I will continue to wait for evidence that Albany is not an interior city, and that having a seaport has any bearing on being an inland city. You make reference to the dictionary definition; Oxford says: "a town or city with a harbor for seagoing ships". Since most (if not all) ports are made to get their ships to sea, then all those ports are seaports (the only realistic exception I can think of is if you shipped something from, say, Chicago to Buffalo, and never experienced the ocean; but it's quite unlikely that those ports never ship to the ocean). If you think there's a more technical definition in use by the experts on ports, then provide it. Until then, you seem to have led this discussion to a stop because you are providing no real evidence for your claims. upstateNYer 14:43, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Nothing new here - you're still taking links and saying different things about them than is the case, relying upon your personal opinion to get the desired meanings ("inland" is different from "interior", for instance). Your edit to Albany also is factually incorrect. TEDickey (talk) 16:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Whether your source is WP:RS or not is irrelevant if it does not contain the information you state that it does. TEDickey (talk) 16:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Still waiting for your evidence... upstateNYer 16:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Having written the Port of Albany-Rensselaer article I hope I can weigh in and be helpful, though probably not... in my personal opinion based upon reliable material I have read and on the classification of the city in gazetteers, almanacs, encyclopedias, and general information resources the city of Albany is considered an inland city by whatever definition they are using (and I doubt they have a standardized scientific definition). However something to remember is this- the city of Albany is not on a river, the Hudson River is an estuary at that point, not a river, so yes Albany is on the Atlantic Ocean. Would a city in Norway on a fjord be considered a river port or an ocean port? Is Amsterdam or Brussels oceanports? Yes to those questions, so why Albany is different...? The Port of Albany-Rensselaer in just about many official port industry publications is classified as an ocean port as opposed to a river port. Examples of ocean ports not on an ocean include Buffalo, Cleveland and Chicago, so large lakes count. River ports are places like Pittsburgh and St Louis. The definition of an ocean port seems to be along the lines of "can ocean going vessels make it to that port". They can not in any way make it to St Louis or Pittsburgh, but they can make it to Albany, just as they can make it to Chicago (through the St. Lawrence Seaway). In the end we must repeat what the sources say, if the sources call Albany an inland city, then that is what we should; even if it seems to contradict the fact that Albany is an ocean port.Camelbinky (talk) 04:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Still waiting for your evidence... upstateNYer 16:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Whether your source is WP:RS or not is irrelevant if it does not contain the information you state that it does. TEDickey (talk) 16:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Examples in this topic of an ocean port not on an ocean include Albany, Baltimore and Philadelphia. TEDickey (talk) 09:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- As noted in its topics, Newark (like Albany) is on an estuary, not actually "on" the ocean itself. TEDickey (talk) 09:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- New York City, of course, is also a well-known river port. TEDickey (talk) 09:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- The point of the discussion is that immigration originally took place largely around ports of entry (seaports), and secondarily around inland transportation centers, e.g., railroads. To be relevant, the discussion should categorize Albany according to the manner in which people came to the city, rather than inventing new terminology for Albany (and other cities). TEDickey (talk) 09:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Newark and the city of New York are not river ports in any classification anywhere ever. The Port of New York-New Jersey (of which the port facilities of both cities are part of) is an ocean port and never classified as a river port ever anywhere by anyone. Immigration to Albany (or more commonly through) has historically been by turnpike/plank road from New England and later they would continue from Albany by the Erie Canal and railroads westward. Immigration to Albany by ocean going vessels was not common after the early-mid 1800s as most people would have stopped in New York (especially after the installation of Ellis Island) and travel north to Albany would be on smaller river steam boats or by railroad or post road. The classification of the Port of Albany-Rensselaer as a port of entry refers to it being a customs location of the Federal government for cargo, not people, no one enters Albany through the port (except once in awhile you hear of Vietnamese being smuggled in as illegal aliens on ocean-going barges). Western NY, Ohio, Michigan, the entire "Old Northwestern Territory" was mostly settled by New Englanders passing through Albany, not by immigrants from foreign countries (with the exception of a wave of Irish along the route of the Erie Canal in the early 1800s). These New Englanders also "colonized" Albany eventually outnumbering the original Dutch inhabitants, for example it was English-descended Connecticut and Mass. immigrants that gave Albany its first taste of culture by way of plays, music, and such. Many villages, towns, and cities in the greater Albany area and mid-Hudson Valley became truly settled by the New Englanders even if founded by the Dutch (Troy, Hudson, and Kingston did not become anything of consequence until the arrival of the New Englanders for example). Those families did not come to Albany by way of boat, they came by way of stage coach (or sleigh during the winter). The covered wagons that are so thought of as being iconic of the American West during the 1800s were actually invented for traveling to and through Albany to central and western NY a hundred years earlier.Camelbinky (talk) 17:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- That was long. Are you going to provide a source for any of it? TEDickey (talk) 20:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm puzzled why you insist on distorting the dispute. Perhaps related to some of the other inaccuracies I'm seeing in your edits. But there's no point in arguing when it's so persistent. TEDickey (talk) 21:43, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- I have no idea what that means. What this comes down to is that you removed Albany from the article and you therefore have the burden of proof to show that it should have been removed. I have offered you numerous very RS that confirm that Albany is an inland/interior city. If you believe it not to be, please cite sources. You have yet to do that. upstateNYer 21:47, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm puzzled why you insist on distorting the dispute. Perhaps related to some of the other inaccuracies I'm seeing in your edits. But there's no point in arguing when it's so persistent. TEDickey (talk) 21:43, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Oi. Seems obvious to me that cities like Albany and Buffalo are properly classified as interior seaports. Yes, the Hudson is properly an estuary, but it's many times longer than it is wide and is only an extension of the ocean, not part of the ocean itself. By all reasonable measures, Albany is a couple hundred miles from the coast, not on the coast. Powers T 10:52, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
Composition Order[edit]
I moved DC up below Delaware on the list in the box to maintain alphabetic order. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:08, 1 November 2011 (UTC) KandyRäyne
DC is "Washington, District of Columbia" so it should be alphabetized with "W" 220.127.116.11 (talk)
Proposal to distinguish between the two separate regions[edit]
Since the U.S. Census Bureau defines the Mid-Atlantic as New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania (see this map for reference) and a clear cultural difference exists between the northern Mid-Atlantic and the southern Mid-Atlantic (Delaware, Maryland, D.C., often Virginia and West Virginia), this topic should at least mention the identity split between the two regions. The northern Mid-Atlantic has an industrial, "Yankee" legacy, while the southern Mid-Atlantic has more of an agrarian, "Dixie" character. The North and South were traditionally divided along the same boundary, and our argument over what states comprise the Mid-Atlantic provides evidence that this split exists. The identifier map should highlight the Census-defined Mid-Atlantic as a different color, and the definition of the Mid-Atlantic should describe a level of mutual exclusivity between the northern Mid-Atlantic and the Southern Mid-Atlantic. The article should also describe the different sub-cultures within the geographic Mid-Atlantic and have a lead section that introduces the reader to the region's diversity. It seems inaccurate to describe the two as one contiguous region because the Mid-Atlantic has historically been one of the least cohesive, self-aware regions of the United States and the geographic Mid-Atlantic is largely colloquial. --Apollo1758 (talk) 05:44, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Also, note that during colonial times the mentioned region was divided between the Middle Colonies (Provinces of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) and the Chesapeake Colonies (Provinces of Maryland and Virginia). The Middle Colonies form a basis of the Census-defined Mid-Atlantic, and at that time the term was geographically accurate because the British maintained colonies in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia; therefore, the Middle Colonies were approximately halfway between the two extremes. --Apollo1758 (talk) 16:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
- The place to start is to find reliable sources that support your explanations. Then we can look at adding them to the article. Powers T 19:19, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
- Correct, I do plan to find reliable sources when I finally get the free time to do so, but I thought it would be good etiquette to start a discussion on the topic because there's been a lot of debate over what constitutes the Mid-Atlantic. --Apollo1758 (talk) 04:15, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
- Dixie? Maryland/DE/DC are certainly not Dixie in character. I've never even heard the term used here (I'm a Marylander) and this map emphasizes my point. As for "agrarian," Pennsylvania (the 90% between the two large cities) is far more agraian than Maryland. Same with upstate New York. The lower DelMarVa peninsula is really the only heavily economically agrarian portion of Maryland/Delaware. Maryland (as well as DC and DE) is small, liberal, and densely populated, akin to MA, NJ, RI, and CT. Baltimore itself is virtually a mini-Philadelphia with the same growth patterns, historical heavy industrial economy, and blue-collar immigrant workers from Italy, Ireland, and Poland.
- DC is very different than any of the Northeastern cities, but it's also very different from any Southern city. It's more like an East Coast version of San Francisco politically, an American version of Paris architecturally and layout wise. It's economy (obviously due to it being the only capital of the United States) is very unique since it's relies very heavily on federal agencies and contractors, apart from the tech jobs in the suburbs. To tell the truth, MD, DC, DE, Southern PA, Southern NJ are really the core of the Mid-Atlantic, NY, WV, Northern NJ and Northern VA being offshoots.
- Virginia is a different case, being a Confederate state, more rural, more conservative, and further South surrounded by other Southern states. There's no dispute anywhere whether Virginia is Southern or not. The true North/South line (not the faux Mason-Dixon line which has simply settled a land dispute between the MD and PA colonies, before this country was even formed) is somewhere along I-95 in the Northern VA suburbs. Richmond is very distinctly Southern and proud of it, from the Confederate History Museum to the monuments of Confederate "heroes." Even though it isn't as obvious, Hampton Roads is Southern as well, when you look at the design/demographics of the "cities" and the very low population densities (which is not apparent in any large city in the Mid-Atlantic). The Hampton Roads and Richmond Metro Areas should be removed from the page (and maybe even the Buffalo CSA).
- West Virginia is an anomaly since it's sandwiched between three different regions--Southeast, Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, and Mid-West--and shares cultural similarities with all three, but perhaps more interesting is the fact that it's own unique culture is the dominant one. This isn't as surprising when you look at the fact that there is no state in the Union that is similar to West Virginia (Arkansas is probably closest, but there are still huge differences). The best argument for WV being included in the Mid-Atlantic is that it doesn't fit anywhere else.188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:12, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
MD DC VA WV DE PA[edit]
New Jersey and New York do not belong in the Mid-Atlantic. they are Considered the North East. As far as MD being the south, people need to get over it. The Mason Dixon Line dies over 100 hundred years ago. MD is Mid atlantic! Anything from NC down is the "South" Even J.D. Rockfeller agrees that "MD has all the charm of the south with the sensibility of the north". I made some edits. All were to alphabetize the city orders.18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:36, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
if the mid-atlantic states were merged into a single state....[edit]
it would rank 1st in population along 43 states, 3rd in total area. the population is 57,999,602 and the total area is 191300.79. the population destiny was 303.18 people per square mile. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 04:18, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Unclear Meaning: "least self-conscious of American regions.[4]"[edit]
This section is concerned specifically with the last sentence of the first paragraph, reading: "The Mid-Atlantic has played an important role in the development of American culture, commerce, trade, and industry, yet it is one of the least self-conscious of American regions.[4]" I've looked at the source and cannot find any reference to the Mid-Atlantic being the "least self-conscious of American regions." I have deleted this last part of the sentence, due to lack of relevance and lack of reference. Happy to discuss further if anyone disagrees. AngryBear (talk) 00:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
New York?[edit]
NY does not consider itself mid-Atlantic, they seems to consider states from NJ on down as MA. This, from their media and weather reports. They always refer to MA as something other than themselves. PA is not even on the Atlantic so it of course can't be MA> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 22:35, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
New Jersey 1860 Presidential Electors[edit]
Currently the table states that Lincoln won the state, but Lincoln only got 4 of the 7 electoral votes - the other three went to Stephen A. Douglas Is there a good way of showing this split vote? 18.104.22.168 (talk) 20:01, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- ^ http://www.epa.gov/emap2/maia/images/maiareg4.gif
- ^ http://water.epa.gov/type/oceb/nep/images/se_3.gif
- ^ http://midatlanticweathergroup.org/
- ^ http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map.svg/931px-Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map.svg.png
- ^ http://biology.usgs.gov/status_trends/img/usa.gif
- ^ http://biology.usgs.gov/status_trends/location.do
- ^ http://www.epa.gov/emap2/maia/html/region.html
- ^ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/50states/midatlantic/
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