text:
Page 4890
1 Monday, 16 July 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan?
6 MR. LAWRENCE: I thank the Tribunal for the extra time, and I
7 apologise.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we understand.
9 Mr. Petrovic, you are to commence the presentation of your case.
10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Your Honours, the Prosecution, in their opening argument, said
12 that this was the policy of persecution and ethnic cleansing and that the
13 accused Damir Dosen participated actively in it and thereby helped the
14 persecution of innocent, non-Serb population, and also helped to maintain
15 hard conditions, difficult conditions, in the Keraterm camp, and thus
16 violated the fundamental provisions of the Geneva Conventions. He also --
17 it was also alleged that he had control over the conditions in the camp
18 and over the manpower in the camp.
19 The Defence will try and, we hope, show to the Trial Chamber the
20 facts which it believes are of crucial importance in this legal matter.
21 In the early 1990s, as against the previous long-lasting and
22 harmonious life in the former Yugoslavia, major changes took place in the
23 society which were beyond the comprehension of many people, and notably
24 the rank and file people. The falling of the state apart, especially in
25 Slovenia, which, where it was least painful because of the composition of
Page 4891
1 the population, but the highest price was paid by the peoples of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in that republic, who in that particular -- in
3 Slovenia represented Yugoslavia small, because of the harmonious life of
4 all three people in Bosnia-Herzegovina for a very long time. The policy
5 which promoted the possibility of cohabitation in that area was the most
6 intensive and the most ruthless in that particular area.
7 The resistance to the nationalist policy offered by the peoples of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina unfortunately succumbed to the extreme nationalism,
9 chauvinism and wars along the borders of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 As against the size of the population, there were very few people
11 who could, objectively speaking, avoid the madness of war in that area.
12 Much larger number of members of all three ethnic groups, by and large
13 against their own will, were involved through forceful mobilisation, were
14 involved, were drawn into the wartime events and war operations in the
15 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 The lack of response to the mobilisation among the adult men would
17 also mean very serious, very grave consequences and would also entail
18 their being sent directly to the front line.
19 In this wartime environment, Damir Dosen simply, like many other
20 people like him, had simply -- was simply given no opportunity to opt for
21 something else, that is to stay at home, to stay in his town, yet be
22 isolated from the political and military developments in that area was
23 something that was not possible.
24 In 1992, Damir Dosen was 25 years old. He had behind him
25 completed elementary school and two grades of machine engineer, mechanical
Page 4892
1 engineering school.
2 Having finished his military service where he came out of the
3 training in signals but absolutely did not know anything about the duties
4 and responsibilities of the profession of policeman, of police work, was
5 simply assigned as a policeman, as a military policeman to the police
6 station Prijedor II.
7 For the first time in his life, having found himself in the role
8 of a policeman, like the majority of his colleagues, members of that
9 police station, the station commander, Zivko Knezevic sent him -- assigned
10 him the task of a guard in Keraterm. And he did not have any experienced
11 policemen by his side on whom he could rely and who would support him and
12 help him in carrying out the security tasks. And other policemen did not
13 have such support, either. As he had no experience in these matters, the
14 only thing that Damir Dosen could rely on and that would serve him as
15 guidance was his personal feeling of right and wrong, and it was the only
16 thing that he relied upon when he tried to help people and to make life
17 easier for people who happened -- who were affected by the war and who
18 were afflicted by the misfortune there. However, that was also governed
19 by the general predicament through the government in Prijedor in 1992.
20 The whole system of values was turned upside down, and human life became
21 the cheapest merchandise there.
22 At the same time, it needs to be pointed out that for him and for
23 his other colleagues, that for him and for his colleagues, it was beyond
24 their comprehension. They simply could not understand what was the
25 purpose, what was the ultimate purpose of the Keraterm camp which was set
Page 4893
1 up without their knowledge and certainly against their will. Also, this
2 was an uncommon life situation, and it is practically unnecessary to
3 mention that he absolutely had no personal experience, professional or
4 lifetime experience, because in his environment he has never come up
5 against a situation that could be likened to that situation in which he
6 happened to find himself.
7 Under those circumstances, his assistance and the human sympathy,
8 understanding he showed towards the detainees, the Defence will show that
9 this will be attested to also by people who at the time were detained in
10 the Keraterm camp precisely because those same people, knowing what kind
11 of a man he was at that period of time, they simply cannot believe that
12 Damir Dosen can be charged with their detention and all the suffering they
13 went through in Keraterm.
14 Here one should also point out that the much larger number of
15 people, victims of the Keraterm camp, has also given written statements to
16 the Defence confirming, corroborating, this, but these people will not
17 testify before this Court for well-known and objective circumstances and
18 understandable human fear. It is a fear from the reaction of their own
19 ethnic community, the fear that if they testified for the Defence before
20 the Tribunal in The Hague could be interpreted as the defence of the Serb
21 policy which was the cause of the suffering of all those people.
22 At the same time, it is being ignored that the accused, as another
23 member of the Serb people, was also a victim of this policy which held
24 sway in that area, and that as an individual, he absolutely could not
25 resist it; that is, he could not change this policy or the attitude
Page 4894
1 towards other ethnicities. It was simply beyond his power.
2 It is a fact that on all the sides, many things are generalised
3 and that individuals are identified with a policy and the effects of the
4 policy conducted in the name of ordinary people, workers, peasants,
5 unemployed, which was -- which, however, brought misfortune, brought a
6 plight, brought suffering to all the inhabitants.
7 Damir Dosen as a small man, because he is an individual, and yet a
8 great man if we think of his views and his attitude; he helped as much as
9 he could in view of the objective conditions which ruled in that area, but
10 he did his best to help the detained people. At the same time, the
11 assistance that he could render as an individual -- at the same time, both
12 the assistance he rendered as an individual and also undisputedly the
13 assistance that other individuals rendered to members of other
14 ethnicities, at that time that assistance was qualified as a treason by
15 members of their own people and could also entail danger for his personal
16 safety and the safety of his family. This fact was already confirmed by a
17 number of witnesses, and that includes witnesses for the Prosecution.
18 The Defence will prove that Damir Dosen is a man who held no
19 prejudice against members of other ethnicities, that he was a man who had
20 a large number of friends amongst the Muslims and Croats, and that he did
21 not make distinction between people based on their ethnic or religious
22 affiliation.
23 The Defence will prove that, in his family, he was brought up in
24 the spirit of openness and understanding for the different. Even his
25 first name, Damir, is a name which is not a traditionally common name
Page 4895
1 amongst the Serbs. This upbringing, his previous life, also determined
2 his attitude to people who were detained in the camp.
3 He tried and did his best to help everyone whom he could help. He
4 went to people and tried to comfort them because he profoundly believed
5 that they would be merely interrogated and then released to go back home.
6 He told them that insofar as that was within his power, that people would
7 not be ill-treated. He tried to instil in people a feeling of security
8 inasmuch as he could do that.
9 The Defence will prove that his personal and family circumstances
10 and what he saw and experienced in Keraterm has left indelible and very
11 heavy consequences. His health -- both his physical and mental health
12 have been impaired.
13 The Defence will show that at -- during the relevant period of
14 time, anarchy and lawlessness reigned in Keraterm and in the area of
15 Prijedor. The defence will show that the civilian authorities did not
16 rule but that anarchy and arbitrariness held sway.
17 The Defence will prove that all the political and military power
18 was concentrated in the hands of a very small number of people who, among
19 other things, also decided to set up the camps at Keraterm, Omarska and
20 Trnopolje, which was beyond the willpower or influence of the accused
21 Dosen.
22 The Defence will prove that Dosen, as a reserve policeman who was
23 a member of the security at Keraterm, could absolutely -- had no say in
24 the supply of Keraterm with water, and the same goes for the quality and
25 quantity of food in Keraterm. The accused Dosen had absolutely no say in
Page 4896
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4897
1 determining the accommodation conditions in Keraterm. The accused, as we
2 have seen -- as we have already seen, had absolutely no say in who would
3 be brought to Keraterm or who would be transferred or released from
4 Keraterm.
5 The Defence will prove that Dosen was just a common, reserve
6 policeman, who, in line with his possibilities and the situation on the
7 ground, together with other guards, reserve policemen, carried out his
8 task, which was the security in Keraterm, as best he knew.
9 The Defence will prove that it is indisputable that the commander
10 of the police station Prijedor II was Zivko Knezevic and that, as an
11 experienced policeman, Knezevic managed all the aspects of the work of the
12 police station Prijedor II and all of its members, that he had full
13 insight into all that the developments and into all the problems that
14 occurred in the investigation centre or camp at Keraterm and that he was
15 the only man, of all the members of the reserve police who participated in
16 the Keraterm security, the only man who could possibly do something about
17 changing any one of the detention conditions for which the accused Damir
18 Dosen is now being charged with.
19 We shall also prove that Keraterm and Omarska were formed
20 following the decision of the Crisis Staff, and that the Crisis Staff was
21 made of individuals who held all the power in the Prijedor area, and that
22 for that, they had also been charged before this Tribunal.
23 The Defence will prove that the military district command and the
24 highest military brass were fully aware of the situation on the ground.
25 To prove the above, the Defence will call about 20 witnesses to
Page 4898
1 appear before this Chamber, of them three expert witnesses, and we shall
2 also produce various documents in evidence.
3 The Defence hopes that we shall prove that Damir Dosen is not
4 guilty of any of the charges.
5 Your Honours, this was my opening argument, and now, with your
6 leave, I should like to suggest that we call in the first witness, Ranko
7 Dosen.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Call your first witness.
9 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Later today, Mr. Petrovic, you will give us an
11 update on the video conference link witnesses.
12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, of course.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] May I begin, Your Honour?
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please begin.
22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Examined by Mr. Rodic:
24 Q. Sir, will you please give us your name and when were you born.
25 A. My name is Ranko Dosen, and I was born on the 4th of January 1950,
Page 4899
1 in the territory of the municipality of Prijedor in Ustikolina.
2 Q. Do you still live there?
3 A. I now live in Prijedor on the Sanska Street, no number.
4 Q. Are you employed, and where?
5 A. I am employed with the public utilities company and I worked there
6 since 1974, and I was a driver there until the -- until the war, and I was
7 a man who drove the water tank and the water cistern, and that is what I
8 also did throughout the war.
9 Q. Did your position in that company change during or after the war?
10 A. Yes. After the war, I moved over to be the floor steward, the
11 shop steward in the same work unit.
12 Q. I must now ask you, because we overlap in time, so will you please
13 pause a little when you hear my question and then start with your answer.
14 Can you describe in more detail the water supply of the town of
15 Prijedor and its broader area before the war in that territory.
16 A. Yes, in Prijedor the situation was rather difficult even before
17 the war, and let alone during the war, because of the shortage of electric
18 power. The power grid, which was over 50 years old, was simply worn and
19 torn too much and could not supply regularly all of the population of the
20 town. And so we had to resort to water cisterns even before the war, that
21 is, water was tanked to Kozarac, Cvijici, even before the war, and also to
22 other places whenever necessary, whenever the citizens so required.
23 Q. Were those places supplied with tankers?
24 A. Yes. Well, they did have the water supply network and all the
25 piping, but the pressure was too low so that they -- we needed to tank
Page 4900
1 additional water to them.
2 Q. And in summertime, what were the reasons for this poor supply of
3 water, apart from the wear and tear of the network?
4 A. Well, there were a number of factors. To begin with, Prijedor is
5 a small countryside town. There are many -- very many gardens around, and
6 people abused it, and they wasted water to water those gardens. So then
7 this whole network, pipe network, was worn and torn so that more than 30
8 per cent of water was simply lost to the ground, I mean just lost. We
9 assumed that that was the conclusion on the basis of the electric energy
10 consumed. When you add together the power used and the amount of water,
11 then you see that there is a loss.
12 Q. And tell us, what was -- what has the situation been since the
13 war, and has the international community helped in this regard in this
14 territory?
15 A. Yes. Following the war, the situation was disastrous still.
16 However, the international community did a part of the job. That is, they
17 built water supply system in the locality between the silo in the
18 direction of Gomionica, and they also built a well, which is -- which
19 could be used. However, the throughput capacity between the Sana bridge
20 is too small so that, again, it could not meet the demand.
21 Q. And did -- is the situation still critical in summertime? In
22 Prijedor? Is there still a shortage of water there?
23 A. Precisely where I am in Puharska, there is no water in Puharska.
24 I can take my bath only after midnight.
25 Q. What about this water situation in the hotel in the centre of
Page 4901
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4902
1 town?
2 A. Well, they are managing because they have water pumps which add to
3 their ability to have water output.
4 Q. Let me move on to the next subject, and this is the beginning of
5 the war in this area. You were working in your job when the war started.
6 And can you please tell us, were you mobilised at that time; and if you
7 were, how did it happen? Would you describe that for us a bit.
8 A. On the 5th of May, 1992, my -- the superior sent me to the
9 barracks to drive the water tanker for the needs of the military. I did
10 that, and when I arrived at the barracks, I was immediately given a
11 summons and I was mobilised immediately, and I stayed in this job, driving
12 a water tanker, for the rest of the war.
13 Q. How many water trucks were used?
14 A. The water utility had three such trucks, and they were all used
15 when Milosevic or Milenko Duga were the superiors there, were -- as they
16 would send them all there.
17 Q. Can you tell us, what -- how much water -- what was the capacity
18 of those trucks?
19 A. Yes. They were all 8.000-litre trucks.
20 Q. Is it true that you were then kept at the barracks to continue to
21 do this work for them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us when you were mobilised, where exactly were you
24 mobilised? Can you tell us the unit?
25 A. I was part of the rear of the brigade which serviced the
Page 4903
1 battalions and was used for other needs as was requested.
2 Q. Did you have a superior officer of any kind?
3 A. Yes, but they changed.
4 Q. During this period, were members of the Muslim ethnic group also
5 activated; that is, were they also mobilised into the Territorial Defence
6 unit?
7 A. Yes. Before the war, it used to be called the Territorial
8 Defence, and they had headquarters at Mrakovica at the youth centre, and
9 at that time I also delivered water to them.
10 Q. When you were mobilised with your water tanker and as you worked
11 in this job, did you encounter any problems when you moved about in
12 Prijedor and the vicinity?
13 A. Yes. Just before the outbreak of war, late May - I don't know the
14 exact date - some checkpoints were erected on the road leading to
15 Mrakovica, and I believe it was done by the Muslim population from
16 Kozarac. These two checkpoints were set up at the entrance to Kozarac
17 from Banja Luka, and the other one in the settlement of Rajkovici. That
18 was on the route to Mrakovica. We needed to be -- we needed an escort of
19 the civilian police in Prijedor in order to be able to get through.
20 Q. During that period, do you also needed to use bypasses?
21 A. Yes. When we couldn't pass on the main road, then we went all the
22 way around via the Knezevic end of Spa, Pecani, Konaci, and then to the
23 youth centre at Mrakovica.
24 Q. Did you at any time deliver water -- were you bringing water from
25 Banja Luka at any time?
Page 4904
1 A. We did that after the 30th of May. After what happened, happened,
2 the wells were mostly in the area from which the Prijedor -- the attack on
3 Prijedor came. So they were -- there was suspicion that they may have
4 been contaminated. So we brought -- we were bringing water for two days
5 from Lamovita - they had plentiful resources - until the Prijedor water
6 was resupplied. So we did this for two days.
7 Q. My apologies. The transcript says that you were bringing water
8 from Lamovita and I had asked you about Banja Luka, so can you explain
9 this?
10 A. We brought it from Banja Luka for two days, and trucks of the
11 Banja Luka garrison were also involved. And we also delivered water to
12 the hospital because they needed it for dialysis purposes, also for the
13 television transmitter and for Benkovac and for the kitchens at the
14 barracks, and also at that time also for Keraterm and Trnopolje.
15 Q. I will come to that. But first, how far is Banja Luka from
16 Prijedor?
17 A. Fifty kilometres.
18 Q. After you brought -- after you had brought water from Banja Luka,
19 you said that you -- did you have a contract with Lamovita that you --
20 A. No, it was just an agreement. Lamovita had its own water supply
21 system. The local residents had financed that. We approached them. They
22 allowed us to use some of their water supply, and this is what we did. We
23 went there and delivered water from there.
24 Q. Can you tell us, where was Lamovita in relation to Prijedor?
25 A. Twenty kilometres on the way to Banja Luka, and then you turn off
Page 4905
1 and there's another -- it's another six kilometres in the direction of
2 Omarska.
3 Q. During that period, did you have enough fuel to go and deliver
4 water from Lamovita?
5 A. There was fuel, but in limited quantities.
6 Q. Do you know when the Keraterm collection camp or investigation
7 camp was established, if you know approximately?
8 A. I don't have precise information, but I know when I first
9 delivered water there, it was hot, and we were asked to deliver water in
10 Keraterm.
11 Q. Do you know who it was who had asked to deliver water to Keraterm,
12 who requested it?
13 A. I believe that it had come from Urije II, the police station.
14 Most probably it was a man called Knezevic. I don't know his name, but I
15 think his last name was Knezevic.
16 Q. Did they call your superior at the barracks?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you then get directions -- directives from your superior to go
19 and deliver water?
20 A. Yes. My superior would call me, would give me an order with
21 provision of fuel, and then I would fuel up the truck and go and get the
22 water.
23 Q. In situations when you delivered water supplies in the truck, and
24 given that it was an eight-tonne truck, was it supplied once a day or more
25 often?
Page 4906
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4907
1 A. It was usually once a day, but during heat waves I had to do it
2 twice.
3 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] With the usher's assistance, I would
4 like to give the witness Exhibit number 2. Will you please show it to the
5 witness.
6 Q. These are the photographs of Keraterm camp and I would like you to
7 look at the photograph marked 2B. It shows the full length of the
8 facility, and will you please show us where would you park when you were
9 delivering water.
10 A. The water was brought from the direction left of the weigh hut.
11 Then it would come here. Then I would back up and, in reverse, come to
12 the area where the kitchen was, and the detainees were locked up there and
13 were all walking about the camp. There was also a water hydrant which had
14 some -- which was delivering some water.
15 Q. Would you always park the truck next to these rooms?
16 A. Yes. It wasn't strictly set, but this is -- it was asphalt road.
17 It was the easiest place to position the truck there, and ...
18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We no longer need the
19 photograph. Can we have the ELMO lowered?
20 Q. When you parked your water tanker at the place which you just
21 showed us, can you describe for us in some detail what was the procedure,
22 what was the -- how was this water distributed and used by the detained
23 persons?
24 A. Yes. When I would bring the water, I would park the truck, I
25 would take two hoses, and they would then just use the water themselves.
Page 4908
1 They would pour the water into bottles or containers. They would splash
2 themselves and so on.
3 Q. Were any of them limited in accessing water?
4 A. I don't understand. What do you mean by that?
5 Q. Were any of detainees not allowed to use that water?
6 A. Oh, no. Everybody could use it, at least while I was there.
7 Q. Would you stay at Keraterm until all the water from the tank was
8 used?
9 A. Not always. Sometimes I had to go to another location, so I had
10 to keep it short. I would just give them to fill their containers, and
11 then I said I had to go, but for the most part I would stay until it was
12 all used.
13 Q. In addition to the detainees, did anybody else use this water?
14 Filling containers?
15 A. Yes, the guards did. I did also. I also drank. And I would then
16 take this to the health inspection, so that I would use some water to take
17 it for inspection.
18 Q. And while the water is being used, you stayed at the Keraterm
19 compound all the time; is that correct?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. While you were waiting for the water to be used and the tank be
22 emptied, did you walk about Keraterm? Did you perhaps enter some of the
23 rooms where the detainees were kept?
24 A. I was busy enough, because I knew a lot of people who were there.
25 They worked in the same company. So their family members would come to
Page 4909
1 me, bringing food in plastic bags, sometimes it would be up to 20 plastic
2 bags, and I would bring this food in my truck and I would distribute it
3 around.
4 Q. Were these plastic bags marked so that you knew who they were
5 destined for?
6 A. Not at first, because at first people didn't even know that I was
7 going there, but when they learned, then they said, they would tell me,
8 "Please, can you go to my wife, can you go to my mother, and bring this
9 or that?" So towards the end, it was -- there were a number of these
10 bags, so I asked them to please put in little notes with their names on so
11 that I would know who it was for.
12 Q. Since these people knew that you were frequently going there, were
13 -- did some of these people give you these bags at the entrance or where
14 did they bring you these bags with supplies for their loved ones?
15 A. To my home.
16 Q. And the guards in shifts who -- which was on duty, did they
17 prevent you from distributing these bags?
18 A. I don't understand. How do you mean, "prohibited"?
19 Q. The guards who were guarding the camp, did they notice that you
20 had bags with food in your truck and that you were distributing them
21 around?
22 A. I don't know. They may have seen that I had bags, but nobody ever
23 controlled me. They didn't ask me any questions.
24 Q. Did anybody prohibit you to distribute food around Keraterm?
25 A. No.
Page 4910
1 Q. Were there situations when you bought any food?
2 A. No. There was no such situations when I was buying food, but at
3 the beginning of the war, when there was enough food in the barracks, I
4 would sometimes take salami and bread, sometimes up to 20 kilos, and I
5 would just collect some of that. That was for the soldiers, and I would
6 take some of that and then I would distribute it around.
7 Q. Did any of the detainees ask you, requested you, to bring him
8 anything special?
9 A. Yes, they did. They asked me to go to their homes and to bring
10 some toiletries, and there was quite a bit of that. And especially they
11 were asking for cigarettes, but that was the hardest item to find. There
12 weren't enough. Sometimes people would even kill for a pack of
13 cigarettes.
14 Q. Was it so risky to have -- own cigarettes?
15 A. Let me tell you, it was very risky. It was very dangerous for
16 everyone. The situation had changed. There were people who were out on
17 the front and they felt that they were God, and that I was - I don't know
18 what - nobody. And they were aggressive and they were also drunk, and
19 that's how they behaved.
20 Q. Can you remember names of anybody to whom you brought food to
21 Keraterm?
22 A. There's a number of them. Ismet Puskar, Said Balovic, Suad
23 Dizdarevic, Bobo Suvic, Ejub Karadzic. The name of a man called
24 Tabakovic. I even forget their names. Denis, Mirzo Alisic. I forget the
25 names of all of them.
Page 4911
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4912
1 Q. And what was their ethnic background?
2 A. They were all Muslims. There were some Croats. I took something
3 to Zoran Pavlovic. He was, he was my neighbour. His mother was an ethnic
4 Serb and father a Croat.
5 Q. Was he a taxi driver in Prijedor?
6 A. Yes. He was at the hospital, and that's where I took it, took the
7 stuff for him.
8 Q. Were they -- were there days when you did not come to Keraterm
9 with the tanker?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When would that be?
12 A. When it rained, then there was no need because there was enough
13 water from the regular supply, from the town supply.
14 Q. When you were shown the picture, you also mentioned a hydrant.
15 Can you describe it? What was that?
16 A. There was a hydrant and it had the attachment with the C-shape
17 hose, a C pipe. I know that we used it, and sometimes when I didn't have
18 enough length of the hose then I would use the pipe from that hydrant.
19 This is how I remember it.
20 Q. Can you tell me about the water at Keraterm, at this specific
21 facility, before the war? Was this water used for drinking at that time?
22 A. Yes. It is still used for drinking now.
23 Q. And is Keraterm part of the regular water supply, the potable
24 water supply in Prijedor?
25 A. Yes, of course. It was never part of the industrial water supply.
Page 4913
1 Q. You mentioned that guards observed your bringing in food but never
2 prevented you from bringing it in. Was that because you knew them and
3 they knew you?
4 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you why. You would have to ask them.
5 Even other citizens, regular citizens came to the gate and delivered food.
6 Q. Did you see that personally and on what occasion?
7 A. Yes. I did see when a woman came and she would call out to the
8 guard, and I guess she turned the bag over to the guard for a person in
9 there.
10 Q. And during those times while you would be in Keraterm until your
11 task there was over, could you tell me, how many guards would you see
12 around there at the time?
13 A. Well, I don't know. There was this weigh bridge and there was
14 shade there, so they would be somewhere in the shade of that. Nobody was
15 anywhere out in the sun because it was hot. It was burning hot.
16 Q. So were they usually gathered there, concentrated around the weigh
17 bridge?
18 A. Yes, as often as not.
19 Q. Could you tell us what those guards wore? Did they have all
20 identical uniforms or ...
21 A. Well, in the beginning of the war, they had the olive-green/grey
22 uniforms of the former Yugoslav People's Army, and then they wore
23 different things. Some people made it out of canvas, those who had. A
24 couple of people had camouflage uniforms, but it was those up high, I mean
25 high-ranking personalities.
Page 4914
1 Q. Was it sometimes combined with civilian clothes?
2 A. Oh, yes, all sorts of things. No ranks or anything. There was no
3 way of knowing who was what.
4 Q. And when you were -- when you came to Keraterm, did you see any
5 other people in the compound coming in, getting out?
6 A. Well, they walked, people walked. You can't know who is who, but
7 people walked.
8 Q. And when you would be with your water tanker in Keraterm, did you
9 see any of the detainees being beaten or ill-treated?
10 A. Let me tell you, there were incidents but only when an outsider
11 would come and do something. Well, not, not beat, but some fool gets
12 drunk and gets into the yard and tries to prove his point or something.
13 But it was so hot at the time, and I was there only when the temperatures
14 were at their highest, so there was nothing there then.
15 Q. Could you tell us, what did those detainees look like in terms of
16 their personal hygiene? What did they look like to you?
17 A. Well, they were in those clothes, in their working, in their rags,
18 in their jeans, in T-shirts. It was hot. Most of them were naked to the
19 waist.
20 Q. Whilst you were there, as you saw those people when you
21 distributed water or food, did you see anyone injured?
22 A. Well, there were. Yes, you could see some signs, not much, not
23 something that I could ...
24 Q. Did you personally see a man with injuries, whether grave or
25 light?
Page 4915
1 A. Can't remember. Well, had I ever known that I would be coming
2 here, then I would have taken -- I would have taken my notes or something,
3 but a man can't -- after all, it was what, eight, maybe nine years ago.
4 Q. You said that you were married. Do you have any children?
5 A. I am married to a Muslim woman. She is the daughter of the
6 religious official. I married in 1970. I have two children and two
7 grandchildren, and I live well. The war did not affect my marriage.
8 Q. Am I correct if I say that your marriage is still harmonious as
9 ever?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Is that one of the reasons why the relations of men detained in
12 Keraterm brought food to you, because they trusted you?
13 A. I wouldn't say that that was the reason. They came knowing that I
14 had to go there regularly and -- or perhaps they had previously talked to
15 my wife or something.
16 Q. And during that period of time, did you and your wife ever draw a
17 distinction between members of different ethnicities?
18 A. No, never. To begin with, my house is in an area mostly populated
19 by Muslims.
20 Q. Can you tell us, at what time of the day did you roughly take the
21 water cistern to Keraterm?
22 A. It was usually before lunch. That is, at times they asked us to
23 bring water earlier so that we could come twice, because I didn't go to
24 Keraterm only. I also supplied Trnopolje.
25 Q. Did you also take water to Omarska?
Page 4916
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4917
1 A. No, I didn't. I never went to Omarska for the duration of the
2 war. I suppose they had water there. I don't know.
3 Q. You said that it was usually sometime before the lunch that you'd
4 take water to Keraterm?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you ever present in Keraterm during the distribution of the
7 lunch?
8 A. Yes, yes, invariably, yes, usually.
9 Q. Could you then describe the whole -- the distribution of lunch and
10 what did the lunch look like?
11 A. Well, they would be in a column, one by one. They would walk to
12 the cook and she would then pour it out for them.
13 Q. And after that, would they wash the bowls? Would the detainees
14 wash the bowls that they had eaten from?
15 A. Well, I don't know. Some did, some didn't. I don't know.
16 Q. Could you tell us precisely where did you get the water? That is,
17 how did you pour the water into cistern to take it to Keraterm?
18 A. It was next to the fire brigade's house because the pipes there
19 are the widest, so that that was why that hydrant was most commonly used.
20 Q. And after you would fill the tanker with water, would you then
21 take it to Keraterm directly or would you do something before that?
22 A. I don't know what you mean.
23 Q. I mean, did anybody check the quality of the water?
24 A. The water quality was checked almost every week. I mean, the
25 epidemiological service would come from the health centre, and they would
Page 4918
1 put in some powder and some things, and I would have to go out of the
2 town, let this water out, and then they would take a sample, and then I
3 get more water and then -- only then they tell me, "Now you can go."
4 Q. And that place next to the fire brigade house where you filled
5 your tanker, did you -- did you take the water from there, from -- not
6 only to Keraterm but also to other users?
7 A. There was no schedule. Whoever would call us, we'd have to take
8 it there. There was not a fixed schedule. Somebody, they would just call
9 and say, You have to take water there, and you do.
10 Q. I wanted to ask you, did you take to Keraterm water that was
11 different from the water that you took to other users?
12 A. There is no different water; same hydrant, same water pipes, same
13 everything. I don't understand. What do you mean "different"?
14 Q. I mean in terms of quality and --
15 A. Well, it's the same water.
16 Q. Did you supply with water somebody on the other side of Keraterm?
17 A. Yes, because there was also police there, but I believe they were
18 military police. They were part of the army, and we left three or four
19 hundred litres only with them.
20 Q. Did you take water to Trnopolje often?
21 A. Regularly.
22 Q. What does "regularly" mean?
23 A. Well, whenever they would call, then we would send some water,
24 because there were several tankers, I wasn't the only one. There was
25 another man who also drove water up there. I wasn't the only one who took
Page 4919
1 water to Keraterm. There would be my colleague who would take another
2 cistern. If I happened to be at Benkovac or somewhere else, then he would
3 take it.
4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the usher please
5 help me to show this document to the witness and distribute the document.
6 Your Honour, this document is in the Serbian language. We have a
7 translation into English. We have also submitted it for translation into
8 French, and when that translation is finished, we shall also file that
9 one.
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the document please be put on the ELMO
12 because the interpreters do not have it.
13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Have you read the document? Is this document written on the paper
15 of the company that you worked for?
16 A. I was with this company until last year. This company has been
17 split into three companies now. The water supply is now under
18 Mr. Milosevic, and that is not under my jurisdiction. What remained was
19 the city cleaning, the refuse collectors, cemeteries. And yes, but I
20 agree, yes, this is how this was done because my, my superiors of the time
21 were subjected to very harsh criticism at the time when the water was
22 needed on all sides, everywhere.
23 Q. So does that mean that you think it is -- these contents describe
24 the situation correctly?
25 A. Yes, this is correct. And I remember when we took this generator
Page 4920
1 from Keramika and we took it to so-called well 4, and another one was
2 taken to Prijedorcanka, to another well which was right next to the
3 railway tracks, but I wasn't the one who took it there.
4 Q. Thank you. Could you describe to us the situation in Prijedor and
5 around Prijedor in the summer of 1992? Nothing to do with water. General
6 situation, the living conditions in Prijedor, what happened in Prijedor in
7 the summer of 1992.
8 A. Well, in a nutshell, I -- may it never happen anywhere in the
9 world, may it never happen in Prijedor. The situation was dramatic. As
10 soon as the parties split along ethnic lines and every one of them asked
11 that you side with your own people, with your nation, and that was the
12 chief cause of it all.
13 After that division, party interests, of course, were not the
14 same. The party from the Bosniak part requested independence, separation,
15 the Serb Democratic Party requested togetherness in the former Yugoslavia,
16 and it was this misunderstanding which brought about the things. Right on
17 the eve of the war, you couldn't go from Prijedor to Banja Luka. It
18 happened some five days before the war. And in the morning when what
19 happened, happened, then the troops opened the road. I had to go to
20 Omarska, but I had to take a roundabout route. Then what happened in
21 Tukovi, that is, the murder of those two soldiers of Serb ethnicity, and
22 they brought these things about because the man who is responsible,
23 responsible for it refused to report.
24 Q. Right. But I wanted you to describe to me in detail, but in as
25 few words as possible to tell us, regardless of the wartime situation,
Page 4921
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4922
1 regardless of the mobilisation of people, was -- did law and order reign
2 in the territory of Prijedor?
3 A. There was no order. Nobody knew who, what, where, or what would
4 be tomorrow. I bring water to Keraterm, and they ask me, "So, what's
5 going to be? What's it?" And I say, "How do I know? Why do you ask me?"
6 They asked somebody else who is around here. "Well, but what about what
7 will be done?" "I don't know, I don't know." Nobody knew. Everything
8 was in glove, anarchy, lawlessness.
9 Q. Right. Tell us, did you, because you helped people detained in
10 Keraterm and perhaps some other situations, did you have any difficulties?
11 Did you run into any problems? Did anyone call on you to account?
12 A. Yes. My neighbour's brother had some problems, and he fled to the
13 woods. He went to a place when he could not keep -- where he did not have
14 any access to the town, so his wife asked me. And I took my tanker and we
15 went there and we rescued him, and then somebody snitched on me.
16 And then my superiors called me and asked me why did I do that?
17 Did I do it because of my wife, because of the way that I was married to?
18 But I did not suffer any consequences, but, well, yes, I was called to
19 account.
20 Q. Could you tell us, from what you know, at that time in Prijedor,
21 that is, in the summer of 1992, who were the chief -- the most powerful
22 people in Prijedor?
23 A. At that time, I didn't know that, nor did I want to know, nor did
24 I think about it, but after the war we learned who was the boss. But it
25 was only then, when the International Community had done its bit, then we
Page 4923
1 found out who was, who was the boss and who was -- who played the chief
2 role and who was Chetnik and pro Chetnik and everything.
3 Q. Was there a Crisis Staff in Prijedor at the time?
4 A. There was a Crisis Staff of sorts, but I wasn't really abreast of
5 who led that or who -- because I just don't, I don't really know what a
6 Crisis Staff -- what is a Crisis Staff. Is it something attached to the
7 army, or what?
8 Q. The territory of the municipality of Prijedor.
9 A. Yes, something, something, yes. There was something called Crisis
10 Staff, but I wasn't really clear what it was.
11 Q. Did you perhaps find out after the war who were the men who had
12 that political power, political authority?
13 A. Yes, one knew. We knew who ruled Prijedor. We know who was the
14 boss in Prijedor. We knew that.
15 Q. Do you know some names?
16 A. Well, I'd rather not mention any names because it's common
17 knowledge.
18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go briefly into
19 a private session?
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
21 [Private session]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 4924
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [Open session]
13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. You have the same surname as the accused Dosen, so I should like
15 to ask you if you are related. Are you a relation of the accused Damir
16 Dosen?
17 A. This is the first time that I saw Damir Dosen in this courtroom,
18 but only now when I saw him, I realised who it was. That is, I knew him
19 but I didn't know that he was Damir Dosen. I knew him as Kajin. That is
20 what people called him. But I didn't know him until now. I knew his dad
21 well, because he comes from the same village, but I didn't know him really
22 well because they come from a different tribe. They come from a different
23 tribe. They are of the so-called Puharski origin, and I'm not from
24 there. But my aunt is married to a relative of his. But it's the same --
25 it's the same surname but we are not related really.
Page 4925
1 Q. But you knew well his father?
2 A. Yes, I knew his father well, a very good man, and I think this
3 must have shortened his life considerably.
4 Q. And just one question to conclude: At that time, in the summer of
5 1992, could one avoid the mobilisation? Could one avoid the call-up and
6 not respond yet stay in Prijedor?
7 A. I agree with your discussion and your question. You know very
8 well what Tito's army was. It was a disciplined army. There was no way
9 you could fail to respond. You -- and you know what one single absence
10 meant. Sir, if I work somewhere and I run a facility, I have to leave it
11 all and go and report when there is a call-up.
12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, I have no
13 further questions. I should also like to adduce this document of the
14 public utilities company, I should like to adduce this document into
15 evidence.
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, what number?
18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Dosen, you will now answer the
19 questions of my learned friend from the Prosecution, thank you.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Any cross-examination from the
21 defence?
22 MR. GREAVES: There may be, but I'd like to be able to take the
23 break now and discuss a certain matter with my learned friend
24 Mr. Londrovic, if I may, please. As you can see, he's been somewhat
25 separated from me today.
Page 4926
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4927
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Very well, we will take the break now.
2 MR. GREAVES: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Dosen, we are going to adjourn for half an
4 hour. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with
5 anybody, and that includes the members of the Defence.
6 We will resume at 11.30.
7 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Greaves?
10 MR. GREAVES: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
12 Q. Mr. Dosen, can you help me with this, please: You've spoken of
13 two places which I think are one and the same thing. You've referred to
14 Urije II and you've referred to Prijedor II. It's right, isn't it, that
15 both of those refer to the same place, that is, Prijedor II Police
16 Station; is that correct?
17 A. Correct, that is correct.
18 Q. And just to be clear about it, Prijedor II was a police station
19 set up in 1992 in order to cover a specific area of Prijedor known as
20 Urije; that's correct, isn't it?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Next, could you look, please, at the photographs which you were
23 shown earlier, Exhibit 2, please. And if you could look, please, at the
24 photograph you were looking at earlier when you showed us where your water
25 tanker was parked.
Page 4928
1 A. The tanker was parked on this asphalt part, in front of the place
2 where they distributed food.
3 Q. Yes. And can you help us about this: Was it parked with the
4 front of the vehicle facing the building or was the rear of the vehicle
5 facing the building?
6 A. Neither was facing the building. It was -- it was -- its side was
7 facing the building, and the other side was facing the Banja Luka-Prijedor
8 road.
9 Q. Yes. Could you help us about this, please: Can you see to the
10 left-hand side of that drawing, that picture, two sets of doors? Do you
11 see them?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you just point to them, the two sets of double doors,
14 please? Thank you. Immediately to the right of those doors, was there a
15 -- some sort of container or structure during the period when you were
16 servicing the water at Keraterm?
17 A. I don't remember that. I only knew that here in the corner there
18 was a kitchen.
19 MR. GREAVES: Yes. Thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves.
21 Sir Ivan?
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Lawrence:
23 Q. Mr. Dosen, you told us that you took water to Keraterm when it was
24 very hot. Did you take water to Keraterm when the electricity broke down
25 and the electricity was not pumping water to Keraterm?
Page 4929
1 A. There were difficulties in supplying water throughout the war,
2 regardless of the municipal water system. And if they had some, there was
3 not enough water. So I delivered water whenever I was called.
4 Q. When electricity failed, water wasn't pumped to the houses or to
5 the systems or to factories; is that right?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. And did that happen quite often during the war, that the
8 electricity failed?
9 A. It happened until two generators were installed at two wells. One
10 near the rail tracks as Brezicani, and the other one at well number 4
11 where that second generator was taken.
12 Q. And when was that the new generator was set up?
13 A. I think sometime in the middle of July those two generators were
14 taken to those wells.
15 Q. In 1992?
16 A. Yes, in 1992.
17 Q. In normal times, water was pumped electrically to Keraterm
18 factory; is that right?
19 A. You mean, you're trying to say before the war?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Even then, there were difficulties in bringing water to Keraterm,
22 into the upper area of Urije. There was, there was a factory with
23 processing fruit, and the water -- the main supplies of water went there
24 and only -- and the citizens were only secondary to that.
25 Q. And pre-war, the responsibility of delivering water was a matter
Page 4930
1 for the local authority?
2 A. Before the war?
3 Q. Before the war.
4 A. Before the war, yes, it was a matter for the authorities, for the
5 municipal government. And many were blaming the utility company, but it
6 was a huge investment, and it could not make such investment on its own.
7 They could only maintain the existing systems.
8 Q. During the war, the responsibility for delivering water was the
9 army's; is that right?
10 A. You could say so, that they took over that, because it was they,
11 the military, who asked for these generators, and they made them be
12 brought to those locations.
13 Q. And is it right that no one except the army could order water to
14 be delivered to Keraterm during the war?
15 A. Let me tell you, the servicing of water was also done by the
16 utility company. My own superior called me a number of times to take
17 water somewhere, because the citizens called them directly, knowing that
18 they were in charge of it. But all these water tankers were mobilised by
19 the army, so we covered both.
20 Q. So if water, additional water or replacement water needed to be
21 taken to Keraterm, that was a matter entirely for the army during the war?
22 A. Yes. Yes, it was the army who did that.
23 Q. Even Knezevic, Zivko Knezevic, the camp commander, the commanding
24 policeman, could not order the water to be brought to Keraterm. He could
25 only ask the army to do it. Is that right?
Page 4931
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4932
1 A. That is correct, yes.
2 Q. And so nobody below Knezevic could order water to be brought to
3 Keraterm during the war?
4 A. No, no one.
5 Q. No ordinary guard or shift leader could order the army to take
6 water to Keraterm during the war?
7 A. No, he could not order it. He could request it, probably from
8 Knezevic.
9 Q. Another matter, Mr. Dosen: Some householders in Prijedor had
10 wells of their own. Is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And in time when water was short, the household holders and their
13 friends and relations would get water from the wells; is that right?
14 A. The water from wells was especially used in Trnopolje because that
15 was an area where there were a lot of private wells. But at Keraterm,
16 there were no such local wells.
17 Q. Were there no wells in Prijedor at all?
18 A. There are some but they are individual ones.
19 Q. Yes, that's what I'm asking you about.
20 A. Yes, there were some, but that was not close to Keraterm, that was
21 not close to the barracks. You needed a large quantity of water there,
22 and they would only have or hold something like two cubic metres.
23 Q. Yes, yes. I'm not asking whether private wells were used to give
24 massive amounts of water to Keraterm. I'm not asking that. But
25 individuals --
Page 4933
1 A. No, never.
2 Q. Individuals who were householders used to go to their own wells
3 for their daily amounts of water; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And there were a number of such householders in Prijedor who had
6 their own wells?
7 A. Many wells were in disuse because the municipal water system was
8 supplying up to a point. However, during the war, when the power outages
9 were frequent, then people resorted back to those things. They tried to
10 have them purified, disinfected. Some of them had covered -- they had
11 filled in their own wells and now they regretted it. They tried to dig
12 them up again.
13 Q. So during the war, private wells were used by the households who
14 had them, who were fortunate enough to have them in Prijedor?
15 A. Yes, yes, correct.
16 Q. Do you know whether or not any individuals from Keraterm went and
17 collected water from private wells? Do you know or not? Don't know?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Finally this, Mr. Dosen: You've told us that you were mobilised,
20 you were a conscript in the army during the war; is that right?
21 A. No. I was part of the reserve force. I was asked to bring the
22 water tanker to the barracks, and the water tanker was mobilised, and when
23 I showed up there, they -- I was handed a summons. So I stayed. At
24 night, I had to go home to sleep and take uniform but then I was sent out
25 on these duties.
Page 4934
1 Q. Yes. When you are engaged on those duties, you were engaged by
2 the army as part of your mobilisation?
3 A. Yes, correct.
4 Q. You weren't a volunteer; you were ordered to do that job?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. And what would have happened to you if you'd have said, "No, I
7 don't want to do this job"?
8 A. Sir, had I refused it, I could have ended up sitting where the
9 accused are sitting.
10 MR. LAWRENCE: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Sir Ivan.
12 Mr. Ryneveld?
13 MR.RYNEVELD: Thank you, Your Honour
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Ryneveld:
15 Q. Mr. Dosen, do I understand correctly that you told us that you
16 were a driver for a public utility company; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was the name of that company, sir?
19 A. The company was called -- it used to be called the 4th of July
20 Utility Company. Then it was abbreviated to Komgrad in 1994, but I was in
21 the army. And now it's called the Basic Utility State Company Utility
22 Services.
23 Q. Was it ever known by the term Komunalno or words to --
24 K-o-m-u-n-a-l-n-o? Komunalno?
25 A. Komunalno? Well, exactly. Everybody was -- just called it
Page 4935
1 Komunalno which is "utility." Nobody called it 4th of July or something
2 like that. Everybody just used that one word.
3 Q. All right. And you would agree with me, sir, that this utility
4 company had responsibility for more than just trucking water; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. For example, sir, did it not also run the cemeteries in the area?
8 A. Yes, and it still does that.
9 Q. Including Pasinac?
10 A. Yes, the new cemetery at Pasinac.
11 Q. Now, sir, about the end of July of 1992, did you know an
12 individual by the name of Edhem Ekeljic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Sir, do you recall an incident near the end of 1992, when, while
15 working for this company, you were asked to collect bodies of murdered
16 Muslims at Hambarine? Was that you? Did you go and collect some bodies
17 while working for this same company?
18 A. I went four days later, after something had happened there. I
19 went up there, but I couldn't do anything. I couldn't approach the -- I
20 was sick.
21 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that you were driving the vehicle that took
22 the bodies, about seven Muslim bodies, to Pasinac to be buried. Do you
23 recall that incident?
24 A. No. No, I never did that. It wasn't me at all. I just remember
25 one body, having taken one body, but it was a civilian. It was in Slavka
Page 4936
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4937
1 Rodica street. This person died and I was called to drive the body away
2 to Pasinac, and that was the only transfer of body that I ever did.
3 Q. So we have established that you do more than just drive the water
4 truck, or you did do more than just drive the water truck. On occasion,
5 the company for which you worked, you also drove bodies from time to time
6 as required?
7 A. No, on only that one occasion. In fact, once I drove a patient to
8 Belgrade to the -- he was a cancer patient, and I took him to Belgrade to
9 this military hospital, but that was one exception.
10 Q. Now, this utility company, that was a civilian company, was it
11 not?
12 A. Yes. It was a public or state company.
13 Q. And so when you were driving both the water truck and/or these
14 vehicles, you were acting for a state company, were you not, sir? You
15 were employed by a state company.
16 A. I still work for the same company.
17 Q. And during 1992, and especially between May, June, July, August of
18 1992, you were still working for this state company, weren't you, sir?
19 A. In 1992?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No, then I was mobilised. But occasionally they would call me in
22 to do something that they had -- that had to be done.
23 Q. So there were times when you worked in both capacities, sometimes
24 in your capacity as a mobilised person working for the military and other
25 times working in a civilian capacity. Is that what you're telling us?
Page 4938
1 A. Sir, I was mobilised on the 5th of May, and I was not demobilised
2 until February of 1995.
3 Q. I understand that. Did I understand your answer to my earlier
4 question to be that at times you would be called in by the company to do
5 something other than in a military-type capacity?
6 A. That is exactly what I told you. Those two cases - once went to
7 Belgrade and once I did what I told you - those were the two things that I
8 did for the company. Also, sometimes the company we -- sometimes the
9 company needed me to drive some water, so they called in to the barracks
10 to ask that I be released so that I could drive water for them wherever
11 they needed me to drive it.
12 Q. I think I understand. Now, just getting back for a moment to the
13 time when you remembered an incident about when you were sick and bodies
14 had to be taken to -- from Hambarine to Pasinac, do you remember what
15 happened when you were sick? Do you remember what that occasion was?
16 Tell us about that, if you would.
17 A. It was very hot. It was summertime. I cannot tell you the date.
18 I cannot give you the precise date when it was. I had to refuse it. I
19 couldn't take that.
20 Q. What were you being requested to do?
21 A. To transport, that's what they asked me to do, to transport some
22 who had been killed to be buried.
23 Q. From where were they going to be transported, and where were they
24 to be buried? Was it Hambarine to Pasinac?
25 A. I don't know Hambarine. It was, I think it was Rakovcani, I
Page 4939
1 believe. I don't know, but there were some bodies at Rakovcani and they
2 had to be taken to Pasinac to be buried.
3 Q. I'm going to move on to another topic, if I may, sir. We're
4 talking now about your role in getting water to Keraterm, and as I
5 understand your evidence, sir, you would only bring the water to Keraterm
6 when you received the specific instruction from the Prijedor Police
7 Station to do so; is that correct?
8 A. I did not get instructions from them directly. It was from my
9 superior in the army, the barracks. He would issue the documents for me
10 to get the fuel, and he would tell me, "Get the fuel, get the water, and
11 take it," and that was it.
12 Q. Well, as I was listening to your evidence when Mr. Rodic was
13 asking you questions, my note - and this is only my handwritten note, of
14 course - was that you were asked to deliver water to Keraterm, and that
15 you got that instruction from Urije II, and you gave the opinion that it
16 was probably from Mr. Knezevic who requested that. Do you remember giving
17 that evidence?
18 A. I do. I do, I remember it, yes, quite. But not to me, not to me
19 directly.
20 Q. All right. You got instructions which was clear that the order
21 had come from the Prijedor II Police Station, who you assumed was
22 Mr. Knezevic, and as a result, when asked, you would take the water to
23 Keraterm. Are we both agreed on that?
24 A. Yes, yes, we do.
25 Q. And you would take the water to Keraterm, especially during the
Page 4940
1 hottest days; is that right?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. And it's also safe to say that that wasn't, then, every day, just
4 on the hottest days and when you were requested to do so.
5 A. No, I wouldn't put it that way. Water was taken there every day
6 except when it rained. When it rained, then there wasn't any need for any
7 large amount of water.
8 Q. If this water was brought every day but when it rained, why would
9 you need specific instructions from Prijedor Police Station II? Was there
10 sort of a standing order, or did you wait for an order and respond to it
11 specifically?
12 A. I've already said it. Water was taken to different places, to
13 Sanicani, to Lisna, to the relay, to the Mrakovica youth centre, to
14 Trnopolje, and to Keraterm. And there wasn't only one tanker, there were
15 two. There was another colleague of mine who they did not -- I wasn't
16 allowed. I didn't go to Keraterm every time. Another man went there,
17 too.
18 Q. Now, sir, when you parked your water truck on the asphalt in front
19 of Keraterm, would you stay with your truck or would you go and visit with
20 the guards?
21 A. Well, I arrived there and I parked the tanker, take out the
22 nozzles for the automatic opening and shutting and I place them, and then
23 I move away. That is, I talk to people who used to work with me and who
24 were detained there, rather than those others, because those others, I
25 didn't really know them and I didn't really communicate with them. I
Page 4941
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4942
1 didn't know who they were, what they were.
2 Q. Thank you for that information. That wasn't actually what I asked
3 you. What I asked you is, would you stay with the truck for hours on end
4 or would you go over to the weigh hut and talk to the -- to those guards
5 who were trying to find some shade in these brutally hot days?
6 A. Well, you know, had it been only once a day I had taken water
7 there, I would have remembered, of course, what I did. But at times it
8 happened twice a day, and then I just walked around. That is, I put my
9 tanker there and people take the water as they need it, and that's it.
10 Q. Sir, you knew some of these detainees, people who were neighbours
11 or people who you knew before the war; is that right?
12 A. Yes. They were my neighbours, and there were also people who used
13 to work with me together in the public utilities, in the Komunalno.
14 Q. And those were the people with whom you would communicate, not
15 with the others?
16 A. Yes, yes, sure. Who -- well, a man whom I've never seen before
17 comes up to me and asks me to do him a favour in the town, to make a phone
18 call or something.
19 Q. So would it be fair to say, sir, that if you did bring things for
20 people, it would be for people you knew?
21 A. Well, as a rule, yes, mostly, mostly those I knew, and those who
22 lived nearer to my house, because it would be their wives or mothers who
23 would bring things to me and then I just load it on and take it over.
24 Q. Now, sir, you don't -- do you know how many detainees there were
25 at Keraterm?
Page 4943
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. I suggest to you, sir, you had no idea whether all of the
3 detainees had access to the water that you brought, do you? You don't
4 know that.
5 A. Well, I should know it since the door is open.
6 Q. Do you know how many rooms there were at Keraterm, sir, where
7 detainees were kept?
8 A. No. I still don't know that. I know there were the first two,
9 and then behind, beyond the kitchen, I know there was something there, but
10 I don't really know.
11 Q. So you may know that the people from Room 1 or perhaps Room 2
12 would have access to the water truck. You don't know if there were Rooms
13 3 or 4, do you? You don't know whether those people would have access to
14 the truck.
15 A. I think that everybody had access to it. I can't really claim
16 that, but I would say yes, I think that because all the doors were open --
17 well, no, I don't really remember.
18 Q. No. Now, this food that people would give you to bring to their
19 loved ones in the camp, the people that you knew, is it your evidence that
20 you would just take that with you in the truck and you would drive the
21 truck, you would park it, and then you'd take the items that you were
22 given and just hand it out to the prisoners that came? Is that -- am I to
23 understand that that was your evidence? You'd collect this -- they'd
24 bring it to your home, you'd put it in your truck. When you arrive with
25 the truck, you'd have little notes on it to say, "This is for so and so,"
Page 4944
1 and then you would distribute it? Is that it? Do I understand that?
2 A. Let me tell you. In the beginning, until people learned that I
3 was taking the water, there weren't many so you didn't have to put any
4 notes, but later on, there were as many as 15 or 20 bags, so I just told
5 them, "Well, will you put something on this, on every bag, so that I know
6 what's what."
7 Q. I understand that. My question was: Is that how you would
8 distribute the items that you were asked to deliver?
9 A. No. I'd give it to anyone, and then they did it by themselves.
10 They then distributed it because they knew who was who, and they find
11 those notes and then they distribute it.
12 Q. But you would give it directly to the detainees?
13 A. Yes, yes, quite.
14 Q. And the guards didn't inspect the contents of these packages that
15 you were delivering?
16 A. Not once. Not once did anyone examine any one of those bags. I
17 could have taken in anything.
18 Q. You could have brought in contraband, you could have brought in
19 weapons, you could have brought in just about anything; is that right?
20 A. With them there, I could have done anything.
21 Q. And now, you say that they were being asked -- they wanted
22 cigarettes and they also wanted you to bring toiletries, and you said
23 there were quite a few of those, toiletries, correct?
24 A. That's right, yes. Some people said, will I make a phone call so
25 that they could be told, and so that they could bring it to me and so that
Page 4945
1 I could bring it to them.
2 Q. I take it by "toiletries" you mean things like shaving kits,
3 razors, deodorants, combs, grooming supplies?
4 A. I didn't look to see what was in those bags. Whatever they had
5 put in there, that's what I took over.
6 Q. I just want to understand what you mean by the word "toiletries."
7 A. Soap, a towel, and I suppose shaving things; that is toiletries.
8 I don't know what else, perhaps some underwear.
9 Q. And as you saw these detainees on a daily basis, as I understand
10 it, while you were delivering the water, were they generally
11 well-groomed?
12 A. I've already said they had those trousers, mostly jeans, mostly
13 naked to the waist because it was so hot. Now, what do I say,
14 well-groomed? I don't really know what to tell you.
15 Q. By "well-groomed," I'm speaking about were they shaven, were they
16 clean? Were they -- looked well-groomed, as it were, hair combed? Clean
17 faces and hands?
18 A. Well, I'd say depended on them. Some perhaps liked to be clean;
19 some others perhaps didn't. Some were shaven; some were not. Just as
20 people are today.
21 Q. Some prefer to be dirty; is that what you're suggesting?
22 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not sure, but some are lazier than
23 others. Some take more care.
24 Q. Now, you were asked by my learned colleague Mr. Rodic to name the
25 names of some people, and you named a number of people that you knew who
Page 4946
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4947
1 were detainees. These were largely friends or neighbours or people you
2 worked with; is that right?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 Q. And then, sir, you were asked to name at some point the names of
5 people who were referred to as being in high places. Do you remember
6 being asked to give some names as well?
7 A. I said I did remember, but I'm not really particularly keen on
8 talking about that.
9 Q. No, I appreciate that. You were also asked, sir, about what the
10 guards and the shift leaders and people like that were wearing, and I
11 believe you gave us a variety of descriptions of what people wore. And
12 you talked about originally there would be the Yugoslav army uniform, you
13 talked about some people were in camouflage uniform, and then you said
14 that the people in uniforms were usually the higher-ranking personalities;
15 is that correct? Isn't that what you told us? Nodding your head.
16 A. Yes, yes. That is, in the beginning of the war, few people had
17 uniforms. I didn't have one until 1994. I never asked for it, and I
18 would have been the happiest had I never had to wear it, but if you had
19 to, you had to. Some people made it for themselves. They would use
20 canvas and things like that.
21 Q. Sir, while you were there, did you see any of the shift leaders or
22 the guards wearing uniforms?
23 A. Let me tell you, I did not communicate with them at all. I didn't
24 even know them. I didn't even know if there was any leader there. They
25 didn't contact me, nor did I contact them. I arrived with my water
Page 4948
1 truck. They opened the gates. I take it in, I leave that water there,
2 and I move on. And that was that.
3 Q. Perhaps you didn't understand my question. These guards and shift
4 leaders that were there, were any of them wearing uniforms?
5 A. I didn't know who was their commander or who was a guard or who
6 was what, and I didn't want to know that.
7 Q. Let me --
8 MR. RYNEVELD: I see Mr. Rodic on his feet.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic, yes.
10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that during the
11 examination, the direct examination, the witness never once used the word
12 "guard," "shift leader," or the "shift commander." He doesn't know
13 anything about it, either, and I think my learned friend is trying to ask
14 things that the witness never testified about.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]... shift
16 leaders?
17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] My questions which had to do with the
18 guards did not go beyond whether they prevented distribution of food and
19 possibly if he saw where the guards were when he was there. I did not say
20 a word about guard, shift leader, or shift commander or anything. I'm
21 quite positive about that, and I know that the witness in his answers
22 never mentioned any of those offices.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
24 MR. RYNEVELD: Perhaps, Your Honour, I could just rephrase my
25 question at this point to get the point that I wanted to get.
Page 4949
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please do.
3 Q. Sir, you've told us that the guards, I believe, were lounging
4 around in the shade near the weigh hut. Do you remember talking about
5 that?
6 A. Yes, yes. That is how it was. Yes, I do remember that.
7 Q. And these people that you refer to as the guards, or whatever
8 capacity they were, the people who appeared to be on duty in charge of
9 that camp, were they wearing uniforms of any kind?
10 A. Why, yes. Yes, they had the olive-green/grey uniforms.
11 Q. Did you see any other uniforms among those individuals?
12 A. Among those individuals in there, no, I didn't. I did see others
13 when they would come there intoxicated and would walk around and throw
14 their weight about. They wore different uniforms, but I cannot really say
15 who wore what uniform.
16 Q. Would you recognise a police uniform were you to see one?
17 A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean "police"?
18 Q. Sir, you took your instructions via the Prijedor II Police
19 Station. Do you know what those people wore at the Prijedor II Police
20 Station?
21 A. They wore --
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, I'm sorry. Sir Ivan is on his
23 feet.
24 MR. LAWRENCE: My learned friend keeps, in my respectful
25 submission, misrepresenting the evidence that this witness gave. He keeps
Page 4950
1 suggesting that he got his instructions from the police station at
2 Prijedor. The witness keeps saying that he got his instructions from the
3 army, and it's three times now I've heard my learned friend suggest that
4 he got his instructions from Prijedor Police Station. It's a very
5 important issue in the case. I would be grateful if my learned friend
6 restated the evidence as this witness has given it, not keep reverting to
7 what is his case.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.
9 MR. RYNEVELD: I'm not going to go into a long debate over what
10 the evidence is and what I'm entitled to ask on cross-examination. I
11 propose simply to rephrase the question so that ...
12 Q. Sir, while a resident or while in Prijedor during the conflict,
13 did you ever see any policemen who were employed at the Prijedor II Police
14 Station? Let's do it in small, baby steps.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were they in a particular kind of uniform?
17 A. That police, they had police uniforms, blue uniforms, and that is
18 what they wore, but none of those on the ground had those.
19 Q. Did you see any reserve policemen at Prijedor Police Station?
20 A. That is a question that I find difficult to answer because I'm
21 telling you that, at that time, you simply didn't know who was a soldier,
22 who is a reserve policeman, who is what. One didn't know anything. There
23 was no order. I mean, everything had fallen apart. There was a complete
24 disarray. I didn't know what I was.
25 And everybody was in danger. You dare not say anything. You
Page 4951
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4952
1 dared not address a word to anyone. You dared not look here, you dared
2 not look there, you just tried to move on. Some armed men, drunk --
3 Q. Witness, the question is could you differentiate by uniform
4 between a regular police uniform or a reserve police uniform? I take it
5 the answer to that is no, you couldn't tell, right?
6 A. No, let me, let me just tell you. The civilian police, one knew.
7 Their uniforms were blue, and all the rest was all possible colours and
8 there was no uniformity. They were all different.
9 Q. Did you ever see any police blue uniforms among the people who
10 were, in your opinion, those running the Keraterm camp? Did you see any
11 of those blue police uniforms among the guards at the camp?
12 A. One could say that I saw them, but they come in and move just
13 through and go into the command to the upper floor, and that would be it.
14 I never had any contact. They didn't have any contact with anyone, with
15 any detainees or anyone else. They just go through and go upstairs.
16 Q. Let me move to another topic, if I may, sir. I believe your
17 evidence was that you tried to deliver the water before lunch. When you
18 say "before lunch," do you mean lunch to be, like, noon, or do you mean
19 lunch to be some other time of day?
20 A. I did not decide when I would take water there. I would get the
21 order when to take the water there, and that usually was before the lunch.
22 Before the lunch, I would get the order to take the water there.
23 Sometimes earlier.
24 Q. My question is, what time of day in a 24-hour clock do you call
25 lunch? Would it be before 12 noon, after 12 noon, before six at night?
Page 4953
1 What is lunchtime within your definition?
2 A. I -- at times it would be at 11.00, at times at 12.00, at times
3 around 2.00, when they distributed lunch there, depending on when I'd
4 return from the ground.
5 Q. So when you're talking lunch, we are talking a range of between
6 11.00 a.m. and 2.00 p.m. or 1100 hours and 1400 hours? Is that what
7 you're saying?
8 A. Yes, yes, that's it.
9 Q. And you would try to deliver the water around lunchtime or before
10 lunchtime; is that correct?
11 A. Well, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't try that. They just order me, they
12 tell me, "Fill it up with water and take it to Keraterm."
13 Q. And is your evidence that when ordered to do so, that you usually
14 arrived at around lunchtime, sometime between 11.00 a.m. and 2.00 p.m.,
15 generally speaking?
16 A. Well, at times I'd be there after lunch. If I was out there
17 somewhere out in the field, 20 kilometres away from Prijedor, so I'd have
18 to come back, fill the water and take it there. So there were times when
19 I took it there after lunch. But usually it was before the lunch.
20 Q. You've told us, sir, that you were there when the detainees were
21 being served their lunch. Would that happen between 11.00 and 2.00 or
22 would that happen later in the day; do you know?
23 A. Well, I wouldn't know it. I say it was sometime around 1.00 or
24 between 1.00 and 2.00. I know because my sister-in-law worked in a
25 restaurant where their food was cooked, which is the Ljubija restaurant in
Page 4954
1 Prijedor.
2 Q. So the lunch wouldn't be served around 5.00 or 6.00 at night,
3 then, late afternoon?
4 A. Well, if that was so, then I did not see that. At least, not when
5 I was there.
6 Q. While you were there, sir, did you ever see anyone beaten while
7 they were queueing up for their food distribution or lunch?
8 A. No, no, never.
9 Q. It was a quiet, unhurried distribution of food, was it?
10 A. There was a woman who distributed food. They would queue up for
11 it, they would take it, sit around and eat their meal.
12 Q. You never saw any of the guards beating them or hurrying them
13 along with -- prodding them with batons or anything like that?
14 A. No, not in my presence.
15 Q. Sir, did you know a [redacted]?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was this the individual that you say you visited in hospital,
18 during your evidence-in-chief?
19 A. That's right. [redacted]
20 [redacted].
21 Q. You knew him to be a detainee at Keraterm during this relevant
22 period, don't you?
23 A. No. In the hospital -- he was in the hospital, not in Keraterm.
24 And I went to see him in the hospital because his mother came to me and
25 she cried and she said, "Well, could you please try and get in and see how
Page 4955
1 he is?" And that is how I went to see him.
2 Q. My question is: Did you know that Zoran Pavlovic had been a
3 detainee at Keraterm before he went to the hospital?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Do you know why he was in hospital?
6 A. Beaten.
7 Q. Beaten? Oh. Did he tell you that?
8 A. No, he didn't, but one could see it and one knew.
9 Q. What injuries did --
10 A. Scars, marks on his face, there.
11 Q. Did he have any injuries to any of his appendages, like arms or
12 legs; could you tell?
13 A. Well, what do I know? I didn't really try to see. I visited him
14 because we were on good terms. [redacted]. I felt sorry for
15 him. Simply 20 days ago, his father came to my place.
16 Q. You went to visit this man. Did you not discuss his injuries with
17 him? Did he not show you what was wrong with him?
18 A. Well, yes, it was -- you know, how long, I could -- I could not be
19 with him more than two minutes.
20 Q. You knew he had been beaten?
21 A. Come, you saw those marks on the face. They showed.
22 Q. But you didn't know where he had been beaten?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You didn't ask?
25 A. No, no, I didn't.
Page 4956
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4957
1 Q. Sir, during your evidence, I believe you said that during this
2 war, you were telling us that there was anarchy and lawlessness; is that
3 right? I believe those are the words you used because I wrote them down.
4 Is this during the period of time when the Serbs were in charge, after the
5 takeover of Prijedor? Is that the time you're referring to?
6 A. I can say, and I would dare say, that even to date, the situation
7 is not very good, to say nothing about the time back then.
8 MR. RYNEVELD: Might we move -- I'm just about done, Your
9 Honours. Might we move very briefly into private session to deal with an
10 issue raised during the previous private session?
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
12 [Private session]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 4958
13 Page 4958-4961 – redacted – private session
Page 4962
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: You say that the tank was usually full of water.
15 At the end of the day when you returned, can you say how much water had
16 been used from the tank?
17 A. Let me tell you. I would be roused at night, too, from home to go
18 and deliver water somewhere. You cannot peek inside. It was an enclosed
19 tank. I would always fill it until it overflowed, and then that's when I
20 would stop.
21 Q. You were not in a position, then, to say how much water had been
22 used from the tank?
23 A. You would turn the valve, and then if nothing would come out, then
24 you'd know that it's empty.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was that usually the case?
Page 4963
1 A. You knew because if, if you -- if it was full when it turned on
2 the tap or -- then it would -- the jet would be straight and it would
3 carry far, and if it was low, then it would not.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
5 Mr. Rodic, re-examination?
6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, very briefly,
7 just a few questions.
8 Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] You said that at the start of the war, very few
10 people had uniforms. Did you mean the camouflage uniforms, the set?
11 A. At first, there were no camouflage uniforms. The first one I saw
12 was worn by a commander, and that was by accident. I saw him passing by,
13 and I had no business with this person.
14 Q. What commander are you referring to?
15 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you, but it must have been a commander
16 if he was wearing such a uniform.
17 Q. Are you referring to a person whom you saw at the barracks?
18 A. I wouldn't be able to say. I wouldn't be able to say because I
19 didn't spend much time at the barracks. We had a fire station. There
20 were fire trucks and these utility trucks. We were -- it was the back
21 side, the gate, and I would only get a phone call with orders to go
22 somewhere.
23 Q. Now, let me see if I understood you correctly about these
24 uniforms. You said that at the beginning it was a rarity to see somebody
25 with a full camouflage uniform, a jacket, a shirt, trousers, but many
Page 4964
1 people had all kinds of uniforms, including the old ones. And this is,
2 among others, why you think it was an important person who was wearing
3 that?
4 A. Yes. At the beginning of the war, nobody had these new uniforms.
5 They had the old ones, the worn-out ones. And I did it, too. I also, for
6 instance, had a civilian shirt that I was wearing with this and the
7 civilian shoes with the uniform.
8 Q. Thank you. When testifying in the cross-examination, you
9 mentioned your sister-in-law, that she worked at the Ljubija restaurant in
10 the centre; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did she do there?
13 A. She was a cook.
14 Q. Did you learn from her that that's where food was prepared for
15 Keraterm?
16 A. Yes, from her personally.
17 MR. RYNEVELD: This is not --
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld.
19 MR. RYNEVELD: This is not arising out of cross-examination, with
20 respect. This area was not touched about where food was prepared or
21 anything like that. My friend is now trying to get something in that he
22 didn't in chief.
23 I'm not specifically objecting, other than to say my understanding
24 is that re-examination is for areas specifically raised in
25 cross-examination.
Page 4965
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: How does that arise, Mr. Rodic?
2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is true that the
3 Defence in the examination-in-chief did not ask such a question, but in
4 the cross-examination, when answering one of the Prosecutor's questions,
5 the witness mentioned his sister-in-law, who worked in the restaurant
6 where the food was prepared for Keraterm, and that is in the transcript.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: We have discretion to allow it, and we allow the
9 question.
10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Rodic, you will be concluding the
12 re-examination before the break?
13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I only have a couple of more
14 questions.
15 Q. Did your sister-in-law perhaps in this conversation mention to you
16 how the food was transported to Keraterm?
17 A. The food was transported in the military containers which were
18 like thermos. They kept it warm. And from her, from what she was saying,
19 it was the army, the military, who transported the food. They only
20 prepared it there.
21 Q. Did I understand you correctly to be saying that the food stocks
22 was also provided by the military?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that concludes my
25 re-examination.
Page 4966
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4967
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.
2 Mr. Dosen, that is your testimony and you are released.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Rodic?
6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the next witness is
7 ready. Now, I don't know -- regarding the lunch break, I don't know
8 whether you want to have him started, or shall we take a break now?
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we will make a start with the witness.
10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Can we then, please, go into the
11 private session for a moment?
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
13 [Private session]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 4968
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.54 p.m.
Page 4969
1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
10 Yes, Mr. Rodic.
11 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I should like
12 to ask to move into private session for a moment, please.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, private session.
14 [Private session]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [redacted]
24 [redacted]
25 [redacted]
Page 4970
1 [redacted]
2 [redacted]
3 [redacted]
4 [redacted]
5 [redacted]
6 [redacted]
7 [redacted]
8 [redacted]
9 [redacted]
10 [redacted]
11 [redacted]
12 [redacted]
13 [redacted]
14 [redacted]
15 [redacted]
16 [redacted]
17 [redacted]
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 [redacted]
22 [redacted]
23 [Open session]
25 Q. [Interpretation] In 1992, where were you?
Page 4971
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4972
1 A. When I returned, I was assigned to the front in Slavonia.
2 Q. And before you left for Slavonia, were you mobilised?
3 A. Yes, I was. I was mobilised by the army.
4 Q. Which unit were you assigned to?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear the witness.
6 Will the witness please pause after he hears the answer and repeat it.
8 Q. Was it the 43rd?
9 A. Yes, it was the 43rd Motorised Brigade.
10 Q. I shall ask you once again to wait a little for my question to be
11 interpreted and then to answer. And how long were you in Slavonia?
12 A. In Slavonia, I was -- I wouldn't know the exact date, but when the
13 army retreated from Slavonia, then I also went back to Prijedor, when our
14 battalion -- when that unit withdrew.
15 Q. And when you returned to Prijedor, were you again expected to go
16 to the front?
17 A. Yes, I was to go to the front line. I was to go to the front
18 line, towards -- in the direction of Modrica.
19 Q. And did you go?
20 A. No, I did not, because I was already afraid by then and all that,
21 and so I decided to report somewhere in Prijedor.
22 Q. Since you were a military conscript, did you then report to a unit
23 in Prijedor, and which one?
24 A. Well, I had to. I had to report to a unit in Prijedor because,
25 had I failed to do that, I would have been incarcerated and I would be
Page 4973
1 reported, so that I did go. I reported to the military police to ask if
2 perhaps they had a vacancy and if I could report there.
3 Q. And where was that military unit, military police unit?
4 A. It was in Keraterm, on the other side.
5 Q. Did you report to somebody there? What did it look like?
6 A. Yes, I went there. I reported there to Mr. Jovic and I asked him
7 -- and I told him that I had been captured, and I told him about all
8 this, that I'd been to Slavonia, so could I please be released -- be
9 relieved of war, so could I be in Prijedor with my family and all that.
10 And he said, "Yes, you can."
11 Q. And what office did this Mr. Jovic hold in the military police?
12 A. He was a commander, a commandant or komandir, as you like, a
13 commander.
14 Q. And what was that military police unit's task? What did they do?
15 A. Our task was to guard the warehouse which was there, the depot and
16 the gate for the commanders, those who came to our unit, and to guard the
17 bridges at Gomionica and over the Sana and the hotel.
18 Q. In that part of Keraterm, were there certain things in Keraterm
19 that you guarded?
20 A. Yes, yes. There were things stored there and we guarded them.
21 Four or five men would guard that. There were huge piles of things.
22 Q. Could you tell us what those things were?
23 A. Well, starting from tractors to lorries to cars and so on. There
24 were also quite a number of lorries guarded there, securing that part.
25 Q. And whose vehicles were they?
Page 4974
1 A. Mobilised, which - how shall I put it? - those were things that
2 were collected. The military police gathered it from them and stored it
3 in the storage space.
4 Q. And was there in that part of Keraterm a military detention unit?
5 A. Yes, there was.
6 Q. Did you -- were you tasked with anything regarding the detention
7 unit?
8 A. Well, yes. It was a detention unit for those - how do you call
9 them? - for ours -- for the military conscripts who had failed to report
10 to the -- to their units. So he was to report to a unit and he didn't,
11 and then they -- I suppose they brought them there and then sent them on
12 to the front line; that is, they were taken under custody to their units.
13 Q. Was it against the will of those people who were in the military
14 detention?
15 A. Yes, it was against --
16 Q. Will you please wait for my question to be interpreted and then
17 start your answer.
18 A. Yes, it was against their will today or even then. Nobody really
19 felt well about bringing in somebody under custody and sending him on to
20 the front line to be killed, but we had to do it under the orders of the
21 superior command. If you didn't do that, then you also had to move on.
22 Q. And whilst you were mobilised with the military police there, did
23 you have a uniform, and what kind of uniform?
24 A. I had my uniform from my Slovenia days, that is, the
25 olive-green/grey uniform.
Page 4975
1 Q. Did all the military policemen have identical uniforms?
2 A. No, they did not. Not always, nor were all the uniforms the
3 same. It depended. Some people had uniforms of a more recent date,
4 others had old uniforms. We wore what we had.
5 Q. And as a military policeman at that time, did you have any
6 markings, any patches typical of the military police? How could they be
7 distinguished from the ordinary troops?
8 A. No, no. We did not have any, any patches, any flashes. They
9 appeared only afterwards. How shall I put it? Thrown out -- when I was
10 thrown out of the police, it was only then that the police received their
11 patches. It was only later on. But whilst I was there, no, there was
12 nothing. We didn't have the regulation belts or -- those later on were
13 better dressed and everything.
14 Q. Did you wear a police belt?
15 A. Yes, I did wear a police belt which was painted white, if I may
16 call it that. It was simply painted over in white because there were no
17 proper belts. Those were just ordinary army belts painted white.
18 Q. Did you paint it?
19 A. Yes, I did that. That is what my commander told me, that I had to
20 paint it over, and so I did.
21 Q. Could you tell us, approximately when did you report for duty at
22 the military police? When was that, approximately?
23 A. I cannot, I cannot -- I cannot recall the date because, after all,
24 it was many years ago.
25 Q. Let me try some other way. At the time when you reported to the
Page 4976
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4977
1 military police at Keraterm, were there on the front side of the Keraterm
2 any detainees?
3 A. Yes, we saw them. They were being brought, but yes, there were
4 some, and one could see that it would happen there, but not yet. But it
5 wasn't there yet.
6 Q. And when you came to the military police, were there more or less
7 detainees in Keraterm on the front side of the Keraterm?
8 A. There was a lesser number.
9 Q. As a military policeman, did you also participate in guarding some
10 checkpoints or facilities?
11 A. I guarded the -- I was on duty at the Gomionica bridge. It is, I
12 guess, a strategic bridge, and also securing the new hotel, and that
13 hotel, and the bridge in Prijedor, the one that provides a link to Sanski
14 Most, those two towns. There was this bridge in Prijedor.
15 Q. You said that military conscripts who had failed to respond to the
16 call-up were brought into custody to you and were kept in detention there.
17 Tell us, apart from those military conscripts, was anybody else brought
18 into custody there?
19 A. Yes. Our guys, because when I came there, there was in the
20 commander -- that is, it was very -- there was strictness with us. You
21 couldn't come there all that easily, but yes, people were brought in.
22 Q. What ethnicity were those people?
23 A. Well, there were other ethnicities that were brought in for
24 interrogation and interrogated there.
25 Q. Well, let me be specific. Were there Muslims who were brought to
Page 4978
1 that detention unit?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If I understand you well, they would be interrogated, and what
4 happened to them then?
5 A. They were returned over there, to that other side.
6 Q. You mean the front part of the Keraterm where they were detained
7 otherwise?
8 A. Yes, where they were kept otherwise.
9 Q. And do you know who guarded that front part of Keraterm with the
10 detainees in those rooms?
11 A. I know it was the police which guarded; that is what I know.
12 Q. And do you know if those were the active-duty policemen or the
13 reserve police force?
14 A. They were reserve policemen by and large. Let me tell you,
15 reserve policemen who were forced to be there, if you want me to tell you
16 the truth.
17 Q. Did you ever visit that front part of Keraterm where those reserve
18 policemen work?
19 A. Yes, I did visit. I knew -- I knew one -- I knew a guy from that
20 part where you entered into that Keraterm.
21 Q. Can you tell us who that is?
22 A. Damir Dosen.
23 Q. How often did you visit the part that he worked in?
24 A. Well, I worked -- whenever I could find some time - how shall I
25 put it? - whenever I had time, I'd go over to him and we'd have a chat, or
Page 4979
1 perhaps if he's not there, I go there and ask, "Is he around?" "No, he's
2 not." Then I turn on my heels and leave, and I come back when he's there
3 and I stay there for about ten minutes, 15 minutes, half an hour, at
4 times.
5 Q. Did you know any other guards who were there, any other of the
6 reserve policemen?
7 A. No. I can't say I did if I didn't, because I knew him from
8 before. That's how I knew him.
9 Q. And what did you chat with Dosen about?
10 A. Well, we talked about all sorts of things, about all that went on,
11 about the situation. Let me tell you, it's not -- as I said, it could
12 never end well, but what ...
13 Q. And when you met, when you'd visit this front part of Keraterm
14 where he worked, could you tell us where would you find him there and
15 where would you be with him during those conversations?
16 A. Mostly when I'd find some time, I'd find him -- when I would go
17 over to him to have a chat, I'd find him at the weigh bridge, around the
18 weigh bridge, there. On a couple of occasions, I found him also at the
19 entrance, at the entrance into Keraterm.
20 Q. And on those occasions when you saw him around the weigh bridge,
21 would he be alone around there or --
22 A. Why, no. There would be other policemen around him too.
23 Q. Did you ever enter the weigh hut and sit down with him?
24 A. Yes, I had an opportunity. I did have an opportunity to go in and
25 sit down there, because outside, there was nowhere to sit down. There was
Page 4980
1 concrete only. To have a chat, there was no chairs, so you had to go in
2 to sit down.
3 Q. Could you see other guards to use this interior, to spend the time
4 inside the weigh hut?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. You said that you -- that on a couple of occasions you also saw
7 him at the entrance gate, if I understood you well?
8 A. Yes, yes. A couple of times I saw him at the front gate where you
9 enter Keraterm from above, from that entrance.
10 Q. And what was he doing at this entrance gate?
11 A. Well, there was lots -- well, not really lots but there were a
12 number, a couple of women who brought bags, who brought bags to -- I mean
13 give to men there in Keraterm, either to their husbands or to relatives,
14 so those bags, and I saw that those bags were searched so as to see that
15 nothing was being taken in, and then they'd be taken into Keraterm.
16 Q. And do you know what was in those bags?
17 A. Well, it must have been food or something like that.
18 Q. Did you see him hand over those bags to the detainees in Keraterm?
19 A. Well, that's what I said. I saw him carry those bags and take
20 them inside into -- in, where they were kept.
21 Q. When they were coming to this front part of Keraterm, when you
22 were there, did you see other guards, other than Dosen, that is, who were
23 taking these bags?
24 A. Yes, I did, but because I did not know these men, and as I was
25 fresh there, new, as a policeman, I just didn't know them. Perhaps I
Page 4981
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4982
1 recognised some faces, but I didn't know them. But I did see them taking
2 those bags with food, or whatever what is in those bags, over to the
3 detainees.
4 Q. Thank you. During your visits there, did you ever see a water
5 tanker there?
6 A. Yes, I did see it, and I actually drank water from that tanker,
7 and I carried water for others in containers.
8 Q. Could the detainees in Keraterm use water in that tanker?
9 A. Yes, they could.
10 Q. Did you see that personally?
11 A. Yes, at least once when I personally came over there to pour some
12 water, I saw them around a tanker. They also used the water, just as we
13 did and everybody else.
14 Q. In the course of your visits there, were you ever in a position to
15 see how food was distributed among the detainees?
16 A. Once or twice, but at least once. I was there when food was being
17 given out. There was a woman there wearing some kind of a white smock or
18 something, but I don't know what food was being given out because when I
19 would go there, I didn't think it was my business to sort of check on what
20 kind of food, but I saw that there was some food being distributed around.
21 Q. You said that when you went to visit Damir, these were brief
22 visits. But while you were there, did you see him, even in those brief
23 visits, beating anyone at Keraterm?
24 A. While I was there when I was visiting him and from what I knew
25 about him from before, I could never notice anything like that on his
Page 4983
1 part.
2 Q. How about somebody else? Did you see somebody else doing
3 something like that?
4 A. No. For the time that I was there, nothing like that happened.
5 Q. Could you tell us what these reserve police officers who were the
6 Keraterm security, what they were wearing?
7 A. Well, there was a variety of uniforms. It wasn't a military
8 uniform, but, for instance, somebody who had a leather jacket on or, for
9 instance, camouflage blue trousers and then a blue shirt. They were not
10 dressed uniformly.
11 Q. Could you tell me how you addressed your superior, Mr. Jovic?
12 A. Comrade commander. He was a commander, and if you did something
13 wrong, then you'd be sent to gaol or you'd be sent to the front.
14 Q. And who were the top military commanders for Prijedor, the
15 district of Prijedor?
16 A. They were at the headquarters.
17 Q. But do you know their names?
18 A. Zelaja or Zeljaja and some others. Those were the main ones, the
19 ones in charge. There were others, but I can't remember because I never
20 went there, to the headquarters. You couldn't even get in there.
21 Q. Was there also a military police unit in the headquarters of
22 Kozara Putevi, the Kozara road?
23 A. Yes, that was a unit attached to the brigade.
24 Q. While you worked at the military police building behind Keraterm,
25 were there any frictions or conflicts between the two police, military
Page 4984
1 police units?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know what it was about?
4 A. They wanted to kick us out of there, and they wanted to move in
5 because we had been guarding that warehouse, and they wanted to take it
6 over. And they wanted to have us disbanded and they wanted this taken
7 away, the warehouse, the trucks, and everything that was there, and this
8 led to the conflict between these two police units.
9 Q. As a military police officer, did you ever go to town for -- to
10 collect conscripts?
11 A. Yes. I had that luck or bad luck - how shall I put it? - that on
12 orders of the commander, we had to go and round up the Serbs who were
13 military conscripts and did not respond to the units in time, that is, by
14 a certain deadline, so we went to bring them in. This was on orders of
15 the higher commander. And when we would bring them in, they would be
16 beaten up and then sent to the front.
17 Q. Do you know a person called Danka Petkovic?
18 [redacted]
19 [redacted]
20 [redacted]
21 Q. Do you know whether she is related to Damir Dosen, too?
22 A. I believe she is.
23 Q. Can you tell us what happened to that person?
24 A. She was killed.
25 Q. Where and why, by whom?
Page 4985
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4986
1 A. She was killed in Prijedor, in the exchange office.
2 Q. Who killed her?
3 A. I guess this man Zigic, Zoran, or whatever his name is. I don't
4 know him, but apparently he did it.
5 Q. And did you hear why?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Will you tell the Trial Chamber.
8 A. Well, this is at least what people were saying, that she was
9 Muslim and that is why.
10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honour, that
11 concludes my examination. I don't know if my learned friends have more.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Cross-examination?
13 MR. GREAVES: No questions, thank you.
14 MR. LAWRENCE: No questions.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly?
16 MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examined by Ms. Baly:
18 Q. This person Danka Petkovic, [redacted], you said,
19 was also related to Damir Dosen, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you all right there?
22 A. Yes, but -- I have a little pain in my leg, but I did hear your
23 question.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked, if possible, to move a
25 bit closer to the microphones, if it is convenient for him?
Page 4987
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you move a bit closer to the microphone?
2 Witness DL, we are concerned as to whether you are comfortable.
3 If you are in any pain, would you like a short break?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think I can -- I can do it
5 if it's -- if it won't last more than half an hour, but I appreciate your
6 concern, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Well, that's a challenge to Ms. Baly.
8 MS. BALY: I can guarantee it won't last more than half an hour,
9 Witness DL.
10 Q. Sir, my question, then, is: Do you consider yourself related to
11 Damir Dosen?
12 A. With Damir? No. He and I are not closely related, no.
13 Q. Now, you, if I understand your evidence correctly, made a
14 decision, after you'd been to the front fighting on one occasion, that you
15 didn't want to go back again. Is that a fair summary of your evidence?
16 A. Well, yes. I wanted to avoid the war because it had -- I had been
17 shaken up by it early on in Slovenia and then in Slavonia subsequently, so
18 I really wanted to kind of stay at home. You know, in the war, you
19 constantly ask yourself whether you'll survive, whether you'll ever go
20 back home.
21 Q. And so when you asked Mr. Jovic whether there were any vacancies
22 and put yourself forward as someone who could fulfil a vacancy in the
23 military police, he was receptive to that and allowed you to in fact
24 occupy a position with the military police instead of going back to the
25 front. That's fair, isn't it?
Page 4988
1 A. Yes. That is what happened, actually. I told him about my
2 situation and I asked whether it would be possible for me to just stay
3 here, around, and he said that, yes, he could help me.
4 Q. So therefore you would agree with the proposition that at that
5 time, you had some -- you yourself had some control over what particular
6 position you filled during that -- those years of that particular time,
7 during the conflict? You would agree with that?
8 A. I was under the orders of my superior commander, Mile, to guard
9 the warehouse, the bridge, that is -- the hotel and the entrance for
10 civilians. There were people who were late for trains. There was a train
11 from Prijedor to Modrica. Modrica was where the front line was. And
12 there were people who were on sick leave, and so this was -- in order for
13 the military police not to go to people's homes, this was to be done this
14 way, for people who were not reporting to their units on time.
15 Q. But in any event, Witness DL, you were -- in a sense, you had
16 volunteered to be a member of the military police at that time rather than
17 go back to the front. Would you agree with that?
18 A. Let me tell you, in those days, everything was voluntary. Now, I
19 reported to the military police voluntarily in order to just save myself.
20 Had I not reported there, I don't know, I could have been under -- in a --
21 I would have been killed without any need. Because whoever had an
22 opportunity to get out of it in any kind of way, everybody looked for ways
23 out in order not to get killed.
24 Q. Now, this warehouse that you referred to, I think you said that
25 was on the -- that was in the grounds of the Keraterm camp; is that
Page 4989
1 right?
2 A. Let me tell you, that was on the other side of -- outside of the
3 perimeter. There was a Keraterm perimeter and then this was outside of
4 the perimeter. That is the warehouse.
5 Q. And goods were brought there and stored there and sorted there and
6 then taken elsewhere? Is that the case?
7 A. That was not like that. The goods were brought there and kept
8 there, guarded there. There were four or five, depended on the hour, on
9 the time, but between three and five people guarded it.
10 Q. And from where had those goods come?
11 A. The goods came from the, the surrounding areas, mobilised
12 vehicles, and they were brought to that location.
13 Q. They were goods that had been looted from people's homes and shops
14 and factories. That's right, isn't it?
15 A. When that dirty war started in the area, this stuff was brought
16 there from factories, and it's true there were things from private homes.
17 It was brought there to be protected, to be -- and this was on the orders
18 of the superiors who told us that we had to guard it, protect it, in order
19 to preserve it. And this is why I was put there, in order to protect that
20 stuff.
21 Q. And what happened to that stuff?
22 A. What happened later -- well, first there was a conflict between
23 these two police units. They were -- they wanted us disbanded. They
24 wanted to move in and to have it, and later on it was my bad luck to have
25 ended up in this police unit because I could not take it and I ended up in
Page 4990
1 prison. I couldn't protect it, and so I ended up in prison, and then I
2 was sent off to a unit in Gradacac completely against my own will and by
3 the will of others.
4 Q. Are you suggesting that some members of the police were taking
5 those goods for their own purposes?
6 A. Perhaps we don't -- you did not understand fully this issue.
7 Q. If you could just listen to this question: What happened to the
8 goods?
9 A. With the goods - how shall I say it? - there was this conflict.
10 There was -- I had, I had bad luck. I was guarding the bridge and the
11 hotel, and when I arrived in the unit, it was in disarray at the police.
12 And if you only dared say something to them, they would put you in gaol
13 and then sent you off to a unit. They would just tell you, "Why are you
14 meddling in all this?" Things like that.
15 Q. Witness DL, I'm not suggesting you did anything wrong. The
16 question I'm asking you is, what happened to those goods? After they'd
17 been brought to the warehouse and placed there, what happened to them?
18 A. People came. I didn't know them. They would come and haul them
19 away. I don't know where they took them. It was not my duty. I didn't
20 follow them. We were either in front of the hotel, guarding it, and we
21 were there, but these people just came, took the stuff, and drove it
22 away. I wasn't under orders to keep track or record of the people who
23 were coming and taking stuff away.
24 Q. And who were these people?
25 A. As I said a moment ago, I don't know who these people were or
Page 4991
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4992
1 where they were from. They would just send us, and they said, "Go and
2 guard the bridge," or, "Go and guard the hotel." So I don't know who.
3 Stuff was just disappearing, and I have no idea where it went and who it
4 was that took it.
5 Q. And amongst that stuff -- just say if you need a break, I can see
6 you're in some pain there. Can you continue?
7 A. It's all right, I can do it.
8 Q. Amongst that stuff that was in the warehouse and was eventually
9 taken, there were, I think you said, tractors and vehicles. Were there
10 television sets?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were there various appliances of a domestic or industrial nature?
13 A. While I was there, I did not see such things.
14 Q. Were the detainees at Keraterm used in any way in relation to that
15 material, that is, in unloading the material or in sorting it or storing
16 it in the warehouse?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever see any floor polishers?
19 A. Let me tell you --
20 Q. Just answer this question, please: Did you ever see any floor
21 polishers among that material?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. You said a moment ago, "Let me tell you." Please do
24 so.
25 A. A moment ago, you asked whether people were brought over from
Page 4993
1 Keraterm to sort and arrange things for us. Was that the question?
2 The answer is no because things were brought there by the army, by
3 the military in military vehicles, and the soldiers handled it. Because
4 Keraterm was on the other side, so we had no authority over there so that
5 we could bring people over and order them anything.
6 Q. Now, just turning to another, another topic. That military
7 detention unit was, in fact, inside the Keraterm compound. That's
8 correct, isn't it?
9 A. The military detention facility was inside the perimeters, and the
10 headquarters was there in that building, and in that same building, there
11 was a room used for detaining military personnel.
12 Q. So the military police, including yourself, had duties at
13 Keraterm, that is to guard these conscripts and to guard this material
14 that was in the warehouse, amongst other duties. They were the assigned
15 duties of the military police at Keraterm; that's correct, isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And so there was legitimate reasons for you to be, along with your
18 colleagues, on the grounds at Keraterm camp. Would you agree with that?
19 A. Let me tell you, we were only on this side over there. True, that
20 that was one and the same compound, but we were on the other side, and
21 these -- I mean, the detainees were in the front part and we were in the
22 rear part, on the other side of Keraterm.
23 Q. When did you finish your duties at Keraterm camp?
24 A. I don't know what you mean, when I finished my duties? Could you
25 please clarify?
Page 4994
1 Q. When did you cease your employment at Keraterm camp?
2 A. Well, I tried to say I couldn't really stay in that police for a
3 very long time because -- well, the reasons are, number 1 -- number 1, I
4 could not take in my neighbour, my next-door neighbour, my school fellow,
5 my friend, I could not really go bring him in, knowing that his wife and
6 two small children or his parents stay behind. To bring him in, it was
7 just too difficult for me. What if somebody -- something happened to any
8 one of them? I just couldn't bear that thought. I simply thought that it
9 would all turn out differently. And then, well, how shall I say, where my
10 neighbours go, where my friends go, I'll go there too, to share their
11 fate.
12 Q. Are you saying that you didn't like what was going on and so you
13 left?
14 A. Well, I can tell you that, no, I didn't like it, but from my
15 place, from the place that I come from, my next-door neighbour, who is
16 still my neighbour, had I -- in that situation, had I taken him in or
17 somebody that I went to school with or anybody else, whether I knew the
18 man or didn't know the man, because this war had to come to an end
19 sometime, sooner or later, and after that - how shall I put it? - I'd
20 really be sorry, I'd really be unhappy if anything happened to those
21 people, and of course there were so many such cases when things did
22 happen. There were people now, if I have to say this, there were many
23 people, even after that, and after me, and other men who were rounded up
24 and taken away, and people perished on the battlefield. And when this
25 war, when it all calmed down, well, that man doesn't have it easy, either
Page 4995
1 to live, and to kill oneself? Well, one couldn't --
2 Q. Just pause there a moment. I'll ask this question again, and I'd
3 just like you to concentrate on the question and see if you disagree or
4 agree with me. The question was: Are you saying that you didn't like
5 what was going on and so you left? Is that correct or not correct?
6 A. This question of yours, I really don't know. Could you please
7 explain it, your question? I mean how -- could you please explain in
8 greater detail?
9 Q. Well, there came a time when you left your employment as a
10 military policeman at the barracks at Keraterm camp. That's correct,
11 isn't it?
12 A. I didn't leave but rather -- I don't know how to say. At first,
13 it was all very strict but then it began to relax. I didn't leave --
14 JUDGE MAY: Witness DL, can you put it in a few words? What are
15 you trying to say? Did you leave or not leave?
16 A. I left.
17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
19 Q. When did you leave?
20 A. I think it was sometime in June or July, can't remember exactly.
21 Q. But it was before the Keraterm camp closed, which I suggest to you
22 was on the 5th of August 1992; is that correct?
23 A. I cannot -- I cannot remember exactly, but I know that Keraterm at
24 that -- was still on at that time. What I know is that it was still
25 there, but I just can't remember exactly.
Page 4996
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 4997
1 MS. BALY: Thank you, Witness DL.
2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly.
3 Mr. Rodic, re-examination?
4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour.
5 Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Could you tell us, when did you get married, what
7 year?
8 A. You will laugh now, but 1994.
9 Q. And regarding your report to Commander Jovic, did he also meet the
10 wishes of everyone who went there and wanted to join? Did he take on
11 everybody, or did he do it for you because you had been captured and been
12 to the front line and so on and so forth?
13 A. Well, let me tell you. Yes, people could report as they pleased.
14 Well, not exactly, but ...
15 Q. And tell me just one more thing: Were you also detained in the
16 military police?
17 A. I was.
18 Q. And is it that you left the military police after that?
19 A. Yes. I went to the unit, my battalion, the 4th Battalion of the
20 43rd Motorised Brigade.
21 Q. Is it then true that you did not leave the military police of your
22 own will?
23 A. Where? Could you repeat it, please?
24 Q. Since you were -- had been detained in the military police in the
25 same unit that you used to work for and then were sent to the battlefield.
Page 4998
1 Now, my question is -- or rather, I simply note, I assume, did you leave
2 the military police of your own will or were you driven away?
3 A. Well, because this -- these conflicts started and these
4 injustices, I decided to leave. And when I decided to leave, it was then
5 that they put me in gaol. The same place where they kept those military
6 conscripts, I was there. And then they sent me to Modrica with the
7 escort. I mean, the other police, the police from the other side. It was
8 they who escorted me, escorted me to the unit.
9 Q. And according to those who gaoled you, was this dispatch to the
10 front, was that to be your punishment?
11 A. Well, it seems -- well, no, it doesn't seem. That's it, yes.
12 That was the punishment.
13 MR. RODIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.
15 Witness DL, that concludes your testimony and you are released.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic, next witness. Do you have another
19 witness available?
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We have two
21 witnesses available, but I am looking at the clock and I'm not sure that
22 we shall be able to finish them today, but of course, it will depend on
23 you. I would nevertheless suggest that we start with another one.
24 JUDGE ROBINSON: We're going to go to ten minutes after four
25 today.
Page 4999
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Your Honour, the next witness is Petar Sovilj. He is not asking
3 for any protection measures.
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Will the usher fetch the witness, please.
5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] You were -- I apologise, but
6 perhaps as we are waiting for the witness, perhaps now is the time --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] -- to inform you about the
9 videolink we are planning for tomorrow.
10 We expect that from half past nine we shall have two persons
11 testifying by videolink from Banja Luka. Their names are in the revised
12 witness list which was filed to you in due time. So we are expecting to
13 have those two persons to testify tomorrow as indicated in the revised
14 witness list.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you going to apply for any protective
16 measures in respect of these witnesses?
17 [The witness entered court]
18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as for the first one,
19 his name is Husein Ganic, and we are not asking for any protective
20 measures. And for the second witness, the last thing we heard from him
21 when we communicated with him was that, yes, he wanted a pseudonym and
22 visual distortion.
23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
24 Let the witness make the declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
Page 5000
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ROBINSON: You may sit.
5 Examined by Mr. Petrovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Will you please give us your full name.
7 A. Petar Sovilj.
8 Q. And when were you born?
9 A. 26 of August, 1947.
10 Q. And what is your profession?
11 A. Electrician.
12 Q. Could you tell us, where were you born?
13 A. I was born in Sanica Gornje, municipality of Kljuc, Bosnia.
14 Q. Are you married?
15 A. Yes, and father of three, three sons.
16 Q. Could you tell us, what is the ethnicity of your wife?
17 A. My wife is a Croat.
18 Q. During your career, where did you work, if you can remember?
19 A. From 1986, I was in Croatia. I worked for three years in
20 Vlaskonja [phoen] near Ovolin [phoen]. Then I returned to Bosnia, and I
21 worked at a place for two years. And then in 1975 I came to Prijedor and
22 got a job in Ljubija mines. Then when the electric train was introduced,
23 I went to the railways company, worked there for four years, returned to
24 Ljubija mines. And then in 1994, I moved over to the power distribution
25 company, that is, Elektrodistribucija, and I was there, and I am still
Page 5001
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
Page 5002
1 with them. I was there during the war and that was my labour assignment.
2 Q. Did you, if ever, serve with the army?
3 A. Yes, I served in 1967, 1968. I did my military duty in Bjelovar
4 near Zagreb, and in Medina in Botakoska [phoen]. In Medina in Botakoska,
5 it was six months, and in Bjelovar a year.
6 Q. And after your regular military service, were you ever invited for
7 military drills?
8 A. Yes, on various occasions.
9 Q. Will you please tell very briefly, draw a comparison between the
10 unit that you served during your regular service and the reserve units
11 that you were called up after that for military drills? Was there any
12 difference, and if there was, then what was it?
13 A. Well, the difference was the discipline and the accommodation, the
14 places where we would be quartered. Those were the principal
15 differences. The behaviour, the dress. I mean, there was less discipline
16 everywhere. We could have a drink perhaps, or we could have a barbecue or
17 something, and make merry. We could even go home and turn up back the
18 next day and so.
19 Q. What kind of army are you talking about, the active duty or the
20 reserve?
21 A. No, reserve. There were reserve, reserve officers, reserve
22 craftsmen, but reserve officers. We rarely had an active-duty officer.
23 Q. Do you know Damir Dosen -- a person called Damir Dosen?
24 A. Yes, I know Damir Dosen, not -- I didn't know him much at the
25 time, because he lives about 300 or 400 away from my house, but my
Page 5003
1 children -- rather, my eldest son grew up in the immediate vicinity, so I
2 heard the name Kajin. Now, it was only during the war that I met him when
3 he came to visit us.
4 Q. No, no, no. I'll ask you about that. Just let's go easy.
5 Can you tell us in brief how people lived in Prijedor before the
6 war, given the fact that the people of different ethnic groups lived in
7 Prijedor?
8 A. I can tell you, based on my own marriage and the friends that I
9 had, we were close. My wife was an ethnic Croat, my best man was a
10 Muslim, and none of this was any problem until the beginning of the war.
11 Q. So when did the first problems in town start among the people who,
12 until then, were friends and close?
13 A. The problem started with these political rallies of different
14 parties. There were -- they all thought that it would be their own state,
15 that they would be ruling, and they would go up and down the street with
16 placards and flags and --
17 Q. And when you talk about different parties, what parties do you
18 have in mind?
19 A. The SDA, SDS and HDZ. I was aware of them because I had a house
20 on the coast and I saw similar political rallies there too.
21 Q. You just told us that you are married to a woman from an ethnic
22 group other than your own. In the light of that, were -- did you feel any
23 pressure on the part of your own ethnic groups in relation to her?
24 A. Yes. There were pressures. They were asking me about it. And
25 she had problems. My neighbourhood is mostly Serb, and there are only a
Page 5004
1 very few non-Serbs living there.
2 Q. Can you describe to me where that is, what neighbourhood this was?
3 A. That is Cirkin Polje, which is a fairly large neighbourhood, local
4 commune. From Prijedor, in the direction of Mount Kozara, across the
5 railroad tracks and across the left, going in the direction of Banja Luka.
6 Q. How far is that from the centre of town?
7 A. Exactly three kilometres from the Hotel Balkan.
8 Q. Do you remember approximately the period when the power was taken
9 over by the SDS?
10 A. Yes, I do remember. I was at home that night with my family. It
11 was on the 30th of April. And the next morning, the radio broadcast that
12 the SDS had taken over power. And from what we could hear, there were no
13 casualties, so it was -- I don't know. That is at least what the police
14 were saying, and I don't know, the military was -- did also not report
15 any.
16 Q. Was that the beginning of the end when -- of this division between
17 ethnic groups?
18 A. I think that the final form of this could be -- had started, had
19 been introduced earlier. The ethnic Croats avoided responding to call-ups
20 to go to the front. I was, for instance, present once when there was a
21 protest and they were protesting they would not join a Serb army.
22 Q. I was going to ask you something but let me ask something else.
23 Where did you work at that time? What -- where was your place of work?
24 A. It was at the Omarska mine and I was an electrician there.
25 Q. How late did you go to work?
Page 5005
1 A. My last shift was between the 23rd and the 24th of, I believe,
2 May. Yes, the night of 23rd to 24th of May. I was in the third or the
3 graveyard shift, so-called. We were bussed in, and then when we got back,
4 that was the last shift that ever went, and to date, I have not been back
5 to that place of work.
6 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you notice anything when going -- being
7 bussed to work between Prijedor and Omarska?
8 A. Yes. Between Prijedor and Omarska, there were some dead-end roads
9 that we could see, and we could see that groups of people with weapons
10 there. And on the way back that next morning, we did not dare go back the
11 same way. We went via Tomasica. But four or five groups -- four or five
12 from the group guaranteed us that we would have no problem and that we
13 would be taken to Kozarac.
14 Q. Does that mean that your route was through Kozarac?
15 A. Yes, Kozarusa, Kozarac, Trnopolje, Kevljani, those were the
16 villages where you could notice these men, and there were some sandbags
17 also from the road, and this is why we were a bit suspicious. We didn't
18 want to go back there, but there were four or five men from Kozarac in
19 that shift and we really -- they guaranteed, and we had no problems. They
20 got off at Kozarac, we continued on to Prijedor, nothing happened.
21 Q. After this trip to Omarska, did you continue to go down that road?
22 A. Yes. There was a call which I received of some pumps needed to be
23 repaired --
24 Q. Just a moment, please. Who came to get you?
25 A. My -- a van from my company. Before that, I got a permit from the
Page 5006
1 SUP, from the police, that I can move, for free movement.
2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Can the usher please help us in the
3 distribution of this document and I will ask the witness if he can tell us
4 something about it. I have copies for the Trial Chamber and for the
5 parties.
6 Q. Will you please look at the document in front of you. And can you
7 tell us what is this document, who issued it and who signed it?
8 A. It's illegible, but it was issued by the Prijedor SUP, the police,
9 and it was signed by the chief, Drljaca. I don't know what his name is.
10 I can't read it. This is the document that allowed me to move about,
11 because at that time, I was a civilian, and anybody who in that position,
12 who wanted to move about in the town or go about his business, had to get
13 one of these. You need to --
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The copy is not very good, Your
15 Honours, but I have the original in my hand, Your Honours, and I can give
16 it to the witness if he's not able to read the name or the signature line,
17 so that he can look at it.
18 A. Shall I read it?
19 Q. Just review it and look at the signature block.
20 A. Simo Drljaca. It was issued on the 1st June, 1992, and it is --
21 it concerns the route to Omarska and back.
22 Q. Does that mean that you could use that road only if given such a
23 permit signed by this person?
24 A. Yes, only under those conditions. I had to have such a document.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Usher. We no longer
Page 5007
1 need this document.
2 Q. Do you know that at some point an attempt, an attempted attack on
3 Prijedor was carried out?
4 A. Yes. On the 30th of May at four or five in the morning, we could
5 hear shots.
6 Q. Did you know what was going on?
7 A. No. We knew nothing, but the radio later reported that a group of
8 Muslims, that is, a Muslim unit had entered the old part of town, the new
9 hotel, and they used boats for this. I think that a Captain Karlica from
10 -- he was some kind of a --
11 Q. Let me just ask you to please keep your answers as short as
12 possible. This way we'll move on much faster.
13 Could you hear any artillery fire or small arms fire?
14 A. Yes. That I heard later, about eight or ten in the morning. It
15 was a mixed artillery and small arms fire. My house is on high ground, so
16 I could hear it quite well.
17 Q. Did a Muslim family come to you during that day?
18 A. Yes, sometime. Maybe it was around noon or maybe ten or eleven or
19 sometime. This was all the way back in 1992. A group of seven Muslims
20 and an ethnic Serb was also with them. They came to me. It was Asim
21 Crnalic, a very well-known family in that part of town, the old part of
22 town.
23 Q. How did these people end up in front of your house on that day?
24 A. My house is set in from the road, about 20 metres. I saw this
25 group. There was this Mr. Asim and his wife Esma, and they had two
Page 5008
1 children, two sons, two daughters-in-law, two children, and I saw him
2 crying. I called him in, and he said, "Please, you can kill me, but help
3 these two children survive."
4 Q. Was your house the first where they turned in?
5 A. No. Apparently they thought that somebody else would help them.
6 They came to somebody else's door, but they turned them back.
7 Q. Do you know who brought them there to your house?
8 A. They told us that they were brought by Damir Dosen. I only knew
9 him as Kajin. I knew where his house was, but I didn't know that his name
10 was Damir Dosen.
11 Q. How long did these people stay in your house?
12 A. This man, he was one of the son-in-laws. He was an ethnic Serb.
13 He stayed there with his family about a month, and Asim with Ceric [as
14 interpreted] and the son Damir, they spent about seven days there.
15 Q. While they were staying in your house, did you learn how they
16 ended up in your house? I mean, in what manner did they come?
17 A. Mr. Asim was wondering himself. Apparently he -- there was this
18 chaos, the war was going on, and that Davor [as translated] Dosen,
19 probably because of this young boy Damir, that is why he gave them a lift.
20 Q. Did they tell you whether Damir ever knew them from before?
21 A. I believe that they did not know him before.
22 Q. Did Damir ever come to your house while the Crnalics were still
23 there in your house?
24 A. Yes. He brought coffee. In fact, that's what my wife told me,
25 that he had brought some coffee, and he came to visit.
Page 5009
1 Q. Why did these people ask Damir Dosen to bring them to your house?
2 A. At that time, these people of these ethnic groups were being
3 collected and taken to Trnopolje.
4 Q. My question is, why did Crnalics end up in your house?
5 A. The son-in-law of Crnalics was from my home village, and he even,
6 I think, was helping my father as an assistant hair cutter, barber, and
7 that's why he probably remembered me, and that's how he ended up in my
8 house.
9 Q. The people who were your neighbours, did they exert any pressure
10 because, after the attack on Prijedor, a Muslim family landed in your
11 house?
12 A. Yes. Mladjo Undala, one of my neighbours, saw this -- one of
13 the -- the other son-in-law, who was an ethnic Muslim, and told others in
14 the neighbourhood that I was keeping Muslims in my home.
15 Q. Will you please look at the next document, please, and tell us
16 what it is and where -- how you came in the possession of this document.
17 Will you please read it and tell us, then, how did you come by it?
18 A. I went to the headquarters of the local commune. I was under
19 threat of an attack. My wife -- my son came to me and told me that the
20 neighbours were saying how my house should be blown up. And because I had
21 a wife who was an ethnic Croat and Muslims in the house, I went to the
22 local commune headquarters, and Marinko Coric was in charge there. I
23 asked him to give me a written guarantee of sorts because I felt
24 responsible for these people.
25 Q. So did you request to be given this document?
Page 5010
1 A. Yes. I requested it for the safety of the persons who were in my
2 house, and I got it.
3 Q. In the lower -- on the bottom of the document, is that something
4 that you added?
5 A. Yes. I wanted to note who had brought them, and I said that it
6 was Dosen the tall, because there were two brothers and this was the tall
7 one.
8 Q. Did the police come looking for Crnalics?
9 A. Yes. A vanload of police arrived, and I didn't know any one of
10 them. They asked me whether there were any Muslims in my house. I told
11 them that, yes, there were. I showed them this certificate proving that I
12 had reported them with the local commune, that I was responsible for them,
13 as it is stated here, and they went away.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, looking at the clock,
15 shall I go on or shall we continue tomorrow morning to conclude the
16 examination-in-chief?
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Previous translation continues]...
18 Mr. Petrovic, we'll take the adjournment now.
19 Mr. Ryneveld.
20 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Your Honour, if I may just raise an issue of
21 some concern to the Prosecution. I thought we should do it now before
22 waiting till tomorrow, and that has to do with the -- not only the
23 adequacy of the summaries we've been provided with, but of the three
24 witnesses provided today, we have had incorrect information which, in
25 effect, does not assist us or prevents us from adequately preparing for
Page 5011
1 cross-examination.
2 For example, the very first witness by name, we had the wrong
3 birth date provided to us. Of course, we do, we do checks on names. We
4 do checks on birth dates, and if they don't match, we move on.
5 Secondly, with respect to the Witness DL, of more serious
6 consequence, in the witness list of the Defence that was filed, we were
7 given a person by a name with a different given name than the one that
8 actually showed up today. That's very significant to us with respect to
9 our ability to prepare for cross-examination. A different individual
10 comes forward than the one that we anticipate is coming forward.
11 The third witness today -- well, for example, the first one we
12 also had a wrong birth date. I think they said it was the 4th of August,
13 and we got the witness taking the stand, saying it was the 4th of
14 January. These are significant things. Even this particular witness, we
15 weren't given an adequate birth date, we just had a month. We don't have
16 a birth date, et cetera.
17 Now hopefully -- and I'm not for a moment suggesting that my
18 friends are doing this in order to put us off, don't get me wrong, but the
19 effect of the inattention to detail on matters of this nature, it does
20 adversely affect our ability to perform our task.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: You're talking about the outlines?
22 MR. RYNEVELD: Well, the Defence witness list which was filed
23 under 65 ter. For example, number 6 that was listed there, who has since
24 received the pseudonym of DL, was listed by a different first name than
25 the individual who in fact testified today. In other words, they're
Page 5012
1 different people. So when we do our checks and prepare for
2 cross-examination, we're prepared to cross-examine Mr. X, and instead we
3 get Mr. Y. That is a problem.
4 The second thing is about the adequacy of these lists. The Court
5 has ordered summaries. We provided thorough summaries. It's a matter of
6 degree as to what assists the Court, but with the greatest of respect, the
7 summaries that we've been getting -- for example, in some of these
8 instances we have no idea, for example, that the witness is going to
9 testify about having been acquainted with one of the accused in these
10 proceedings. That is for the Court to decide in terms of how adequate
11 these are. What I don't want them to be is misleading.
12 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
13 Mr. Petrovic, there are two matters. The witness list is produced
14 pursuant to Rule 65 ter, and that's an obligation. I think you have a
15 duty to ensure that it is as accurate as possible.
16 With regard to the witness outline, that's a wholly administrative
17 procedure devised by the Chamber, but if it is to assist the Court, then
18 that, too, has to be accurate, and perhaps you would want to look at the
19 other outlines that you are going to prepare and ensure that perhaps there
20 could be a little more detail put, and also attend to the accuracy.
21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,
22 just very briefly in response to the mistake in the summary, it is one
23 letter in the first name. It is a J instead of N. They are both
24 legitimate first names. So I apologise for that. We are trying to do our
25 best. But also, let me tell you that there are things that come up in the
Page 5013
1 examination that we ourselves had not anticipated. But I will do my best
2 to be as accurate as possible so that we don't bring about a situation
3 where anybody would be misled, the Trial Chamber or my learned friends.
4 And I also invited my learned friend, if there is any point which
5 is vague or not clear enough, I would invite him to address me rather than
6 bring it out to you. That is, first try to get any clarification from
7 me. But I hope that we will be able to avoid all future misleading --
8 misunderstandings in the future.
9 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?
10 MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, I completely agree with my friend that I would
11 of course prefer to raise it with my learned friends. They have been very
12 cooperative in dealing with the Prosecution. The trouble is the summaries
13 we received this morning, so we didn't have a chance, and it wasn't until
14 the witness actually took the stand that we understood it was a different
15 name.
16 But there is another issue; I may as well raise it now. We have
17 just received a revised Defence witness list, and under number 2, like
18 Roman numeral II, number 3, there is a name on there which was not
19 included in the original witness list, and therefore is not -- there is
20 not a 65 ter -- just a new name altogether, just appeared out of nowhere.
21 I just want to raise that issue. And we as of yet have no summaries for
22 tomorrow's witnesses. And I don't know, do we have two videolink
23 witnesses tomorrow, plus others? Maybe we could clarify that so that we
24 can start preparing this evening.
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Petrovic?
Page 5014
1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] First off, the practice of the
2 Prosecution was to provide summaries at the time when the witnesses were
3 practically coming out to give evidence, and in that respect I see no
4 difference between the approach of the Dosen Defence and the OTP
5 procedures.
6 And as far as the videolink is concerned, I think it's perfectly
7 clear, and we can clear it up without taking any time to the Trial
8 Chamber.
9 We have been diligent, I believe, because we have made an attempt
10 - and I think we've succeeded - in paring down the list of 20, 21
11 witnesses, in compliance with what the idea was behind the Trial Chamber's
12 urging us to do such a thing.
13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Apart from the two videolink witnesses, do you
14 have others in the event that those are concluded?
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, yes. It was
16 already last week that I told my learned friends, that I notified them
17 that we had seven witnesses in The Hague, and in case of any problem with
18 the videolink, that we can call them in so that we -- the Chamber doesn't
19 have to waste time waiting for the link. We have seven witnesses here who
20 are ready to jump in whenever there is a break in the videolink.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic, and you will provide the
22 Prosecution and other Defence counsel with outlines as soon as possible.
23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
24 MR. LAWRENCE: Your Honour?
25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Sir Ivan?
Page 5015
1 MR. LAWRENCE: This might be an appropriate moment, since we are
2 dealing with these matters, to raise a completely different one. Might I
3 respectfully ask the Court when we can expect to receive the written
4 reasons for the bis 98 ruling of the court? Its relevance to the Defence
5 is perhaps obvious, as far as Kolundzija is concerned. There is
6 difficulty about calling some witnesses, who are understandably reluctant
7 to come, and depending upon the reasons that the Court has given, it may
8 not be necessary to call some witnesses. On the other hand, it may be
9 necessary to call others that we are not sure were so necessary. So it
10 would be very helpful. I say this not to put pressure upon the Court. I
11 don't know what the normal procedure is as to the time of producing the
12 written reasons, but it would be helpful if we could know those written
13 reasons before we started finalising the preparation of the defence of
14 Kolundzija.
15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Subject to translation, it will be ready
16 next week.
17 Mr. Sovilj, we are going to take the adjournment for the
18 afternoon, and we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.30. During the
19 adjournment, I remind you you are not to discuss your evidence with
20 anybody, and that includes the members of the Defence.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
22 4.20 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday the 17th day
23 of July, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.