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" Developed by Funcom Entertainment and published by Empire Interactive. Adventure game. "
I want to preface this review by saying that I am not a big fan of point and click adventures but I did love both Grim Fandango and The Dig when I was a kid, and since I'd heard this game spoken about very fondly by quite a few people so I thought I'd try it out.
First thing you will notice when you are playing this game is that it looks like no other, in terms of implementation but most definitely in terms of setting. The locations, the worlds that were created for this game are so beautiful and deep, for the first few hours I was totally immersed. Then the scales fell from my eyes, my frustration built and my wonderment wore off.
This is such a shame as I was, and still am, really interested to see how the plot pans out and to see what else this game has to offer. I just could not get past the moronic puzzles. There is no logic to them. No real world basis or sensible methodology to solve them. I suppose what you are supposed to do is endlessly try and combine everything with everything else until something happens, or look up the solution online. But then, I just dont see the point. You may as well just watch the LPs of it on youtube, you are a passenger, an observer. Playing the way they seem to want you to removes the game entirely. It is as if you are reading a book and they make you solve a rubiks cube blindfolded before you can turn to the next page.
As I said before I understand some irrationality and illogic is unavoidable in point and click adventures, but after I solved about five of these in a row (the contraption you need to build to remove an object from a rail line is truly insane) I just refused to go on.
A shame, but there you go.
Developer: Funcom
Publisher: Tri Synergy
Year of release: 2000
'The Longest Journey' is what I consider by far the best Adventure game I've ever experienced. It really is outstanding in originality, intelligent writing, depth of gameplay and immersion. It's won numerous awards including IGN.com's Editor's Choice and their Best Adventure Game of 2000, PC Gamer's Editor's Choice, Computer Gaming's Editor's Choice, Gamespot's Game of the Year, and Gamespy's Best of 2000, and is number 18 on PC Gamer Magazine's Top 100 Games of All Time. So, quite a collection of accolades!
If you like point and click Adventure games and have not tried this one, you have a real treat in store for you. A cross between Science Fiction and Fantasy, it was released to not a lot of fanfare, and I actually didn't hear of this game until about three years after its release, when I read about it in one of the PC gaming magazines and became curious. They considered it the best Adventure game ever made and were waxing enthusiastically on its many qualities.
I became intrigued and decided I would try to find a copy, although I had some misgivings as the article explained that you play as a 17-year-old girl. This made me think it would probably be a bit girly and maybe a bit 'young' for my tastes - although a girl myself, I'm not a 'girly' girl, and I'll never see anywhere near 17 again.
Still, I bought a copy from the game's website, as I was unable to find it in any shops, and installed the two CDs. The box informed me that it is rated Mature 17+ and contained Strong Language. So, I guessed that it wouldn't be too overly girly or young.
So, I fired it up and was presented with an opening sequence of an old lady seated in an armchair in the sitting room of a rustic country cottage, with a young couple sitting nearby. The young couple ask her to tell them a story, one about something they refer to as 'The Balance', and the old lady begins to recount a tale, a 'story that begins where it ends'. This scene fades away and we are treated to some of the most beautiful fantasy artwork I've ever seen in a game, or anywhere for that matter. A glowing man is suspended in mid-air; a dragon is swallowing its own tail. We don't know yet know what these images represent.
Next we see a young woman in bed sleeping, and we see that she is having a strange dream. The bed fades away and she finds herself in a strange fantastic landscape. We now find that she is April Ryan, the character you play as. She seems to be alone, then finds that a tree nearby is inhabited by a nature spirit and it talks to her, telling her that it has been charged with protecting a very important egg in a nest in one of its branches. A huge white dragon arrives, and we learn that she is the mother of the egg. The dragon speaks to April: 'April, Daughter, I have been waiting for you,' it says in a gentle and fond voice. 'Waiting? Why?' April asks in bewilderment. 'Because it begins here, with you, as it always has,' the dragon says cryptically. 'I am the mother of what is, but you are the mother of what may be.'
However, a huge ball of what appears to be some sort of noxious matter suddenly appears in the sky above them, and sends everyone hurtling in different directions, April herself falling off a steep cliff. She wakes up in her bed, dazed and frantic at the strange nightmare she has just had.
But, was it just a nightmare? The next morning April resumes her usual everyday life as an Art student at the local University and working part-time in a local bar/café. She lives in a small town called Venice on the outskirts of a city called Newport. Venice is an artsy, Bohemian village made up of converted industrial buildings connected by a series of canals, and we find that it is about 200 years in the future from now, although student life and Bohemianism don't seem to have changed much in all that time! April has many good friends and seems a bright, level-headed girl, so when strange things start happening to her, such as seeing a hologram art sculpture of a dragon momentarily turn into a real dragon, or a strange small hairy creature playing a flute suddenly jump out of the jukebox in the bar where she works, she begins to doubt her sanity.
Then, to make things weirder, she meets a mysterious older Spanish man called Cortez. He is a very articulate and intriguing man, and tells her that he knows all about the dream she had and the strange waking experiences that she thought were hallucinations. He tells her that she has a very important mission ahead of her, and April now begins to doubt his sanity too. But at the same time, she feels strangely drawn to him.
By the time you arrive at this point, just minutes into the game after the initial nightmare sequence with the dragon, you will already be hooked and will desperately want to know what this is all about and what's in store for April. Both Cortez and the lady dragon have told her that she is someone of great importance, a crucial figure who has an important role to carry out. What could it be?
You will be taken on a long and absolutely fantastic journey that you will never want to end. Suffice to say that Cortez turns out to be a facilitator who enables April to travel between two different worlds - the one she knows, which is referred to as Stark, the world of science and logic, and Arcadia, the world of fantasy and magic. These two worlds both exist on Earth, but in two different dimensions. The ability to travel between the two worlds is called shifting, and very few people have the ability to shift, Cortez being one of them. It falls to Cortez to teach April how to do this, the purpose of which you will find out later. Arcadia is a beautiful, ancient world that you feel totally immersed in and actually find it disappointing when you have to shift back to Stark to carry out another of your goals. However, Arcadia is not without its problems, and there are many that you need to solve there.
This game has a massive number of characters, all of them very well-defined and individual, and you will become very fond of many of them. April herself is one of the best lead characters I've ever seen in any game - despite my initial misgivings of what this character might be like, they were completely wrong. She's smart, sassy, and can be very, very funny and also very, very strong and resourceful. A likeable, well-rounded character with a real 'can do' attitude. I can guarantee that when you finish 'The Longest Journey', you will really miss April and many of the other inhabitants of this fabulous game and its two worlds.
As mentioned, this is a point and click Adventure, so you literally click on where you want April to go, who you want her to interact with and what items you want her to use or pick up. The interface is well designed and easy to use. You have an inventory where you keep all the things you collect, a log of all the major conversations you've had, a video log of all major cutscenes as they occur, and 'April's Diary', in which she records her accounts of her experiences every day. So, the forgetful amongst us have lots of means to remind ourselves of any important events of which our memory is hazy!
And it's as well that you have these aide-memoires, because this is one heck of a complex, complicated story with many goals, many characters, many places to visit, many strange experiences to encounter - the richness of the writing, complexity of the story and depth of the gameplay is really second to none I've ever seen, the nearest being The Longest Journey's sequel (Dreamfall) and the classic FPS/RPG Deus Ex. The writing is superb, very deep, intelligent and even spiritual at times, with quite a few scenes that have actually moved me nearly to tears, yet the writers are also adept at including really wacky and off the wall humour that will have you chortling in front of your PC screen
Graphically, it's stunning. By that I don't mean that it has the most up-to-date, impressive photorealistic 3D graphics - after all, it was made in 2000, and is a 2D game - but that the artwork in this game is truly beautiful. It all looks like a series of gorgeous paintings, and the Arcadia sequences, in particular, consist of some superb examples of surreal fantasy art. The music in this game is also very beautiful and atmospheric, lots of sweeping and uplifting stuff.
I've played this through twice and am now starting on my third time, because I've just inspired someone I know to get a copy and once they started playing it, it kicked off my motivation to have yet another go! It is something that is replayable because although your gaming experience won't change from one replay to another, this game is so packed with so many different characters and events that you simply won't remember all of it after a year or so. But, even the stuff I do remember, I'm enjoying reliving all over again!
'The Longest Journey', although not available in shops as far as I know, can be purchased online, new as well as used, from various sources such as Amazon and eBay. It no longer seems to be available from the developers' website, as it was way back when I bought it.
You might also want to pick up a copy of the sequel, 'Dreamfall', which carries on ten years from where 'The Longest Journey' leaves off. You may be initially disappointed to find that you don't play as April in this one - but you will encounter her later in the game and actually alternate back and forth between playing as April and the new heroine. See my other reviews for a review of Dreamfall!
There is a fair degree of swearing and references to sexual issues in the game, so as its certification suggests, this is not a game for children!
Recommended with the highest recommendation humanly possible. A must-have. I wish I could give it more than five stars.
Also on ciao.co.uk as thereddragon and Helium as Esmeralda Draic.
Do you like to play old time classic games like monkey island ? These kind of game are a disappearing breed, and longest journey is one of this kind, the game is pretty old so you will have a hard time locating it and probably the best way is to use ebay or some store which specialize in old games or has some used game sale, and of course the price will be low, probably a few pounds.
Let's start with the real review here, TLJ (The Longest Journey) is a old kind of game, it uses an interface similar to point and click used in monkey island, and is very easy to master especially if you already know what I am talking about, basically you have to choose which actions your character has to do, how to interact with objects, choose topics talking to peoples and so on.
The story is a very nice, part post modern, part fantasy story with actually a very nice plot and full of surprises, if you like to play this kind of game probably TLJ is one of the best and if you haven't already played it you can probably consider it on the same level of some new game of this kind ad maybe even better.
The graphic is pretty decent considering the game is probably 7-8 years old or more, not exceptional but very well rendered and the game does not require a modern pc, probably a 500 mhz or more will be sufficient, the game is of course for one player only and may contain some strong words, is not easy and will probably prove to be quite challenging.
I can't of course spend time talking about the plot cause this is probably the strong part of the game and you will discover it while you go on the only thing I do recall from when I played the game some years ago is that the game is quite long and probably will keep you entertained for some days.
The replayability of the game is minimal seen that is like reading a book, once you finished it there is no point in reading it again, you can of course do it but it won't be the same
(WARNING: This opinion contains some minor spoilers.) Well you certainly can't accuse the makers of TLJ of fraudulent advertising because the game certainly does feel like the longest journey you'll ever experience in a game. The story is quite simple. You play the part of a busty young art student called Lara C… sorry I mean April Ryan, but you've been experiencing a lack of inspiration lately and your end-of-year exhibition is coming up meaning you need inspiration, soon. The art academy exhibition is the least of your problems though and have recently been experiencing weird nightmares with dragons and talking trees etc. One day a man walks into April's life raving like a loony and warning you about the dangers of these nightmares that have also apparently been affecting other city folk. It isn't long until you discover that you are actually a person called a shifter who has the ability to shift between 2 Earths, one ruled buy science (Stark) and one by magic (Arcadia). The story is very intricate and well designed to engross the player if they don't get bored first and therein lies the fault. You can tell there is a good story here but there is simply too much talking going on. Don't get me wrong, I always up for a little chat with a friendly stranger but some conversations are more like watching a film rather than playing an interactive computer game. In some cases you can sit there for what seem like hours just listening to someone giving you their life-story without you actually having to touch the mouse, it is possible to skip these epic little conversations but there is always the possibility that you could miss an important piece of information and have to go all the way back through the conversation log to find the info you need. Having said that, if you can bare the long conversations, you are in for one heck of an adventure. The story has more twists and turns than a county lane and ther
e are plenty of interesting characters to meet. Some of the locations in TLJ are truly beautiful, all are pre-rendered and make the game all the more impressive. The backgrounds can range from a bustling cityscape to a mountain range covered with acres of lush green grass. Each location is inhabited by its own people ranging from your average homegrown human to strange giant, telepathic, water lizards. So now I come to the puzzles. Its becoming much rarer these days to find an adventure game with puzzles that are actually fun but TLJ really does have some enjoyable puzzles. These puzzles, however, can range from the blatantly obvious to the mind perplexing illogical, for example, there is a puzzle in which you must win a game by guessing which cup a coin is under, luckily the coin is made if iron and so you can use a magnetic screwdriver to see which cup moves when the screwdriver is held near it, easy, its basic physics. Then there is the puzzle where you must get an object jammed in a rail track and where a simple clamp may be sufficient to reach it you are required to find several other objects to fashion some kind of long-distance grabbing device that would me more at home in an episode of MacGyver. I'm happy to say that these illogical puzzles are few and far between and for those of you who really get stuck it shouldn't be to hard to find a good walk through on the net. As a big fan of adventure games I would recommend TLJ to any other adventure fan and also to anyone who loves a good story. TLJ is a fantasy game that will give even the most seasoned gamer hours of fun and entertainment, providing a rich gaming world full of beautiful locations, believable characters, entertaining puzzles and an extremely engrossing storyline loaded with plot twists and turns. For those people left wanting more at the end of the game (I can't imagine why you could want more though) there is a little extra that is unlocked which allo
ws you to see some of TLJ concept art, voice acting bloopers and music that didn't, but really should have, made it into the game.
No guns, no blood splattering full-on gore action, no monsters rearing up at you from stagnant swamps…but a whole lot of talking and walking going on. You should be warned that, if you only like blowing enemies sky high and dashing around collecting weapons, this would not be your favourite game ever. I like adventure games, but what often lets them down is the lack of any real content or logical challenges that don't have you slamming your head against the desk in frustration. I was a little perturbed to read many reviews of The Longest Journey that opined the fact you spend most of your time talking to characters you meet along your way. I felt sure this would slow the game down to a comatose pace that would have me gazing around the room for lack of interest. As it turned out, I was wrong. Yes, the conversations you have are long-winded at times. You can skip through these more quickly by pressing Esc on your keyboard, and all conversations are logged. This means if you're in the mood to speed things up, you can go back later and re-read what people have said to you. This often proves vital as the game has many paths, which only open when characters have mentioned a person or place that you then have to question other people about before traveling there. Other adventure game designers should take note of the conversations in The Longest Journey – they actually manage to be interesting and add a whole new dimension to the game. This is how we come to care about the heroine, April Ryan, and her friends. Far from being staid and boring, the conversations are witty, at times subversively so, and often sprinkled with a good few swear words to spice things up a little and bring us into the time the game is set. Another useful feature is April's diary. When something important happens, the diary icon flashes and you get to read what just happened through April's point of view. The things you have to
remember are, for the most part, written down for you. This also means you don't have to sit poised with a pen and paper, frantically scribbling down names, dates, codes and addresses – another downfall of many adventure games. I like the fact this game has been designed with the player in mind; it's shocking how little this is taken into account by many adventure game designers. They seem so intent on creating the perfect backgrounds and mind-boggling puzzles that they forget someone will actually be sitting down and trying to enjoy themselves whilst playing it. The manual says the makers' of this game believe it is "...very frustrating for the player to spend hours solving a puzzle only to have a piano dropped on her head when she pushes the wrong lever. But this doesn't mean the game isn't challenging. It just means that, whatever you do, right or wrong, you don't have to worry about being punished. Games are supposed to be fun, not aggravating." If only all adventure games could incorporate this belief into their design! Playing this game is like reading someone's diary and stepping into the pages. There is just the right balance of player control. By that I mean to say it feels like you can control certain things, like April's actions, but there is just enough out of your control to make it feel like an interactive animated movie. I haven't quite finished, but so far I am very impressed. The characters aren't quite as well animated as I had hoped, but the lush backgrounds are wonderful and imaginative, the characters are realistic and interesting, the situations varied and amusing. Don't buy if you have an ever-itchy trigger finger, but if you like well thought out fascinating games that keep you thinking, I highly recommend it.
The first thing to say about the Longest Journey,by Empire Interactive, is that it is not a "shoot em up!" It is more like a movie where you have some control over how fast the plot progresses. This is because more of the story unfolds as you solve various puzzles. I am still playing the game, so this review will be somewhat incomplete, but to tell you in detail what happens will spoil it for you. To give you a flavour though, you play April Ryan, who is desribed as a "shifter", someone with the power to move between the two worlds of "Arcadia" and "Stark". Arcadia, as its name implies, is a rural world which has a mythical feel to it and which is ruled by magic. Whilst Stark is based on a modern, technological world not too disimilar to the world of Blade Runner. We enter the story at a time when the "balance" between the two worlds has been disturbed and it appears that April's mission is to restore that balance. The game moves between the two Kingdoms in the form of a mixture of interactive puzzles and non-interactive "video" clips (these are to my mind particularly good). Some of the reviews I have read in the various PC mags have critised The Longest Journey for having too much chat in it between April and the various characters she meets along the way. I have to say from my point of view that this is one of the games strengths. I would like to see more games which rely on interactive conversation to move the plot along with heavier reliance on the psychology of relationships (if the AI part of the programmes can handle it). If you would like to play a visually impressive game which relies more on puzzle solving and chat rather than "flash bang wallop" then The Longest Journey is for you. If, however, you are looking for a game with a Lara clone, April does not fit the bill, she's younger and comes with less assetts and no hardware and I haven'
t come across any characters with chain saws, Lucozade or Dorbermans called "Boris" yet.


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Jason Dew came and gave a talk on Ruby on Rails. Jason was kind enough to send me a copy of the outline of his presentation. He covered several topics including:
- Ruby: The Foundation
- Language Basics
- Completely Object Oriented
- Methods, Classes and Modules
- Rails: The Framework
- Model-View-Controller Architecture
- Database-centric Programming
- Convention over Configuration
- Conclusion
Jason has the slides from his presentation available online at http://jasondew.com/
Also, he is organizing a Ruby on Rails user group. If interested, check out http://colaruby.org/
I talked a bit about the very basics of compiling programs in C, showing an example of a "Hello World" program. One notable caveat for users of Ubuntu distributions: While Ubuntu does include the gcc compiler, but does not include the standard libraries that are used in almost every program (such as "stdio.h" and "stdlib.h".) If you use ubuntu and want to compile programs in C, you will need to run the following:
sudo apt-get install libc6-dev
- or
sudo apt-get install build-essential
these packages will load the libraries.
Next Month
I have had some offers to talk about NetLogo and Python. I will update the front page of the website with program information as it becomes more definite.

subset: commoncrawl


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Each year, Wake Forest University and Winston-Salem State University collaborate to host a major celebration to honor the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. On Jan. 20, Benjamin Todd Jealous, the former president and CEO of the NAACP will present the Martin Luther King Jr. Day keynote speech.
This event is free and open to the public.
Darlene Starnes


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Anika Cook of A Gently Unfurling Sneak works from her space in the River Studios complex, designed by Breathe Architecture. Photos – Andrew Wuttke
River Studios complex, designed by Breathe Architecture. Top left – the studio of Louise Lavarack. Bottom – shared artists space, blurry person we think is Juliana Chin!
It's things like this that make Melbourne AWESOME.
River Studios is a 3 storey, 3000m2 warehouse in West Melbourne that has recently been converted into art studios for 75 artists. The project has been developed by Creative Spaces – a joint initiative of the City of Melbourne and Arts Victoria, who are trying to break the eviction cycle for inner city Melbourne artists by securing long term leases and converting them to art studios. The building owner has also been instrumentally supportive of the project – and it's win-win, because the warehouse was vacant for more than 20 years before this conversion! Brilliant.
Amongst the many tenants of River Studios are high profile artist Callum Morton (who has taken the entire ground floor), painter Merryn J Trevethan, artists Rick Mereki and Jason Mildren, photographer Hana Davies, and many craft based businesses such as A Gently Unfurling Sneak and Gaye Abandon.
Breathe Architecture are the resourceful local firm responsible for the design and conversion of the River Studios space. In keeping with his sustainable design ethos, Jeremy McLeod of Breathe Architecture has cleverly recycled redundant building stock and other salvaged materials to create a brilliant new user friendly layout, on a super tight budget. In his own words – 'No budget but freaking awesome space.' I hope he doesn't kill me for repeating that. :)
Breathe Architecture have just won a well deserved Victorian Architecture Award for this project – the jury was suitably impressed, citing that 'the new environment is relaxed, open and inclusive, private yet permeable'. Yes yes I concur.
I must also thank Jeremy McLeod for bringing this project to my attention and supplying the great pics! Love that, thankyou JM! Thanks also to Anika Cook and Gaye Naismith of Gaye Abandon for the photo identification of the artists and spaces in these pics!
River Studios is not open to the public, HOWEVER, local artists might be keen to know that one large space has just become available in this award winning complex! If you're on the hunt for a new studio space, check out the info over here.
*Update – have just heard from Tessa at Creative spaces, and you'll be pleased to know that River Studios is having an OPEN STUDIO event next Saturday the 30th and Sunday the 31st of July, from 11am to 4pm each day! All the studios will be open and artists and the creative spaces team will be on site (with hot chai tea!) to welcome anyone looking for a sticky beak! (and who doesn't love a sticky beak?!)


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460ci Chevy, 10.5:1 pistons, Steel crank std, Merlin 1-043 iron heads, CompCams roller valve train, stud girdles, complete ARP stud kit, tunnel ram w/2 -750cfm holleys, MSD 7AL ignition, 2-¼ Lemons headers w/ 4inch mufflers.
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Complete interior and original dash, GM tilt steering column, swivel bucket seats, Autometer gages, Hurst pistol grip shifter w/ line lock.
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IHRA CERTIFIED to 5.50 in 1/8. This car runs 6.90s in the 1/8 on 93 octane pump gas. Clear NY Title. This is a well built, nice clean car, $30K CASH TALKS, 716-866-2378, racingjunk.com ad# 181856981


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From baby scientists to a science of social learning
By Andrew Meltzoff, 10:45 AM September 10, 2009
Developmental psychologist Andrew Meltzoff codirects the Institute for Learning and Brain Sciences at the University of Washington in Seattle. In the July 17 Science, Meltzoff and his colleagues published a paper titled "Foundations for a New Science of Learning." Meltzoff recently spoke with Science News writer Bruce Bower.
What does the science of learning tell us about the nature of intelligence?
People sometimes think of intelligence as a reflection of individual problem-solving skills. ...
Source URL: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/baby-scientists-science-social-learning?mode=magazine&context=691


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Town Square
School Funding and Prop 13 and California's Education Challenge
Original post made by a common myth, College Terrace, on Aug 23, 2009
Posted by a common myth, a resident of the College Terrace neighborhood, on Aug 21, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Another Parent -
The fact is that California is spending more per student now, in inflation adjusted dollars, than it did before Prop 13. It is simply false that Prop 13 caused reduced spending, because spending increased.
You may not think Prop 13 is fair, or may dislike it for other reasons, and you may believe California should be spending more on education, but Prop 13 did not result in a reduction in spending for education.
I personally believe that for what the schools are trying to do, which includes compensating for uneducated parents and dysfunctional families, along with dealing with English language issues, they don't have enough money.
Report Objectionable Content
Posted by Another parent, a resident of the South of Midtown neighborhood, on Aug 22, 2009 at 12:11 am
To a Common Myth, Dollars spent per child is a meaningless way to measure what is being invested in education. As you point out, the job of educating students in this state has changed since prop 13 was enacted and therefore to try and educate children with the same resources doesn't make sense. I do agree that our schools are expected to not only teach the basics but overcome all those other issues as well, which, as I mentioned, are actually the responsibility of the parents. Having children is a huge undertaking and passing on the difficult parts to the school system is wrong however common it has become. But this our current reality and California schools are not funded adequately for the job. Prop 13 does create a host of problems while mitigating the problems of a few. We can and should do better.
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Comments (40)
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 23, 2009 at 10:19 am
Another Parent -
We agree on a lot, here. I would like to frame the questions as how we should spend our money and how much money we need.
You can't just say that we need unlimited spending on education here now, and Prop 13 limits spending, therefore it creates problems. You must ask, "What should the limit on education spending be?" and "Has Prop 13 materially impacted that limit in the current structure of the budget and the way it limits education spending outside of Prop 13?"
Are dollars spent in our public school system, designed to educate, effectively applied to a need for better parenting? I don't think they are. How can the dollars be best spent to meet the need that ineffective parenting is creating?
It may be that money would be better spent educating parents, or in intervention programs separate from the educational system, or in family planning, or law enforcement, or drug abuse etc. It's a big problem. Would our elementary schools be competent to address this even if they had an infinite amount of money?
We could justify more money spent on schools or on this problem if we could show that the money is used effectively. But that isn't happening. We don't measure, report, or analyze impact of dollars spent on student attitude, stress reduction, patience, or self-discipline. And that is not the charter of the public school system.
II think we share the feeling that education is so important that we shouldn't scrimp on it. But I don't think it follows that we should pour infinite resources into our current public school system.
We have to ask, "how much?" and "how effective?"
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 23, 2009 at 10:25 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a registered user.
[Post removed by Palo Alto Online staff.]
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 23, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Actually, Proposition 13 did lead to a HUGE drop in per-student funding. What happened is that the school systems started falling apart so badly that voters looked for other ways of funding schools and brought the funding levels back up to a certain degree--though our funding per student is relatively low--particularly when you consider the state's cost-of-living.
By the time funding had been picked up, a lot of damage had been done--i.e. in Palo Alto a third of the schools were closed, across the state facilities aged and deteriorated. New schools were a no-go.
And, yes, per-student spending *does* affect results. Anti-tax types love to bring up Washington DC as an example about how high per-student spending doesn't mean a thing. What they leave out is that there's a strong correlation in per-student-spending and educational achievement in the vast majority of cases. The Eastern Seaboard states spend on kids and have great schools. The South underspends and has dismal results.
Compared to other states and our pre-Prop. 13 rankings, we don't spend a lot on our kids.
ESL students are an issue in this state, but this is hardly the first time the public schools have dealt with educating immigrants. I do think a couple of things help--smaller disctricts and smaller schools. I think the relative success of some charter programs has to do with local investment and control.
In the private sector, you get what you pay for--not sure why people think that this isn't the case with public schools. Certainly, on some level we all believe that when we choose to live (and pay accordingly) in Palo Alto.
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 23, 2009 at 7:14 pm
It is like saying that 70% of all people in car accidents had orange juice for breakfast sometime in the last week, and therefore OJ caused the accidents.
Again, we spend 30% more per student now than we did 30 years ago. Why are we producing much less educated children, roughly 48th or 49th in the nation?
In real estate it is location, location, location. In education I would say demographics, demographics, and expectations.
Think DC, the highest per student spending in the nation, and ...51st out of the 51 in output.
Sorry, money simply isn't the problem there, is it?
There is the separate issue of NOT capping taxes Prop 13 style, resulting in ever escalating taxes as housing prices ( used to) quadruple every 20 years,so that after 40 years of owning a home, one is entering retirement with more than 8 times the taxes one originally thought one would pay and having that pretty much match your retirement pay...what is an elderly to do but be forced to sell and move out of state?
We could let housing taxes rise with the value of the home, I suppose..as soon as we enact that law, the value of the houses drop even more than they already have in California, as home buyers are willing to spend even less.
How about going back to basics, and not passing kids from grade to grade until they have mastered a minimum level? How about going back to the way it was when were number one, and guess what? No music and drama and PE teachers in elementary school. It was read, write, math drilling,..and for all the complaining about how horrible our education was, somehow we did a heck of a lot better job then with the kids.
Of course, no special ed, virtually no ELL, and virtually no after school day care. Kids went home to Moms, snack, play, then homework, dinner, bed.
Demographics, demographics, demographics ( and how we spend our school day)
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 23, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Walter_E_Wallis is a registered user.
Much of the divisive social engineering has had the negative effect of ghettoizing the ones it is supposed to help, justifying ethnic studies at the expense of core curriculum, sometimes by denigrating the once majority culture. Had government grown at the rate established by 13, there would be no disparity.
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 23, 2009 at 8:29 pm
It is extremely misleading to argue that the school spending has increased 30% (in inflation adjusted) reflects an increase in the amount of resources provided to students. In case you haven't noticed, wages (especially California wages) and retirement funding have increased much more that 30% in real terms since 1978. Since the vast majority of school cost are wages for teachers, administrators, and other services, the amount or resources spent on each student has decreased.
Examples of increased school spending that does not lead to increased performance does not support the conclusion that increased spending is useless. There are far too many factors involved to logically arrive at that conclusion, e.g., the assets of the parents in community, crime levels, drug use, the availability of qualified teachers, the way money is spent, etc.
There are many ways to deal with the "problem" that increased tax revenues would send too much money to the schools. Many school districts (outside of California) have a school tax that is separate from the property tax. Annual school budgets are passed and the bill is paid for by taxes (proportional to property value) that are determined by the budget.
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 23, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Same old,
Nah, correlation may not be causation, but it doesn't mean that there's no link between the two. Our kids are educated in schools and various factors are strongly linked to better results, some of those take money.
The DC example shows that money isn't everything. Doesn't mean it's irrelevant either. DC, by the way, does not have the highest spending per pupil--it's third, after New York and New Jersey.
Of course, computing the numbers only makes sense when you factor in cost-of-living. $40,000 per annum buys you a nice house in Utah and won't pay the rent in Palo Alto.
Demographics create an uneven playing field, but that hardly makes money a nonissue. That's a sort of sloppy wishful thinking.
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 23, 2009 at 10:58 pm
"Since the vast majority of school cost are wages for teachers, administrators, and other services, the amount or resources spent on each student has decreased."
Don't teachers, administrators and other services count as resources for our students?
What would you consider resources spent on our students to be? Textbooks?
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 23, 2009 at 11:20 pm
"our funding per student is relatively low"
Please support this. I believe it to be a myth. California enjoys greater economy of scale than any other state. This includes a lot of HR substance around teachers, largely driven by unions. And resource centers and opportunities for teachers funded privately and publically.
The standard of living is so low for many Californians that their best meal is school-paid lunch. Even if you sustain visceral hatred for Prop 13 and think the funding is coming from elsewhere, that does not support this statement.
"And, yes, per-student spending *does* affect results."
Again, please support this. I believe this to be a myth. The money is often thrown at exploratory programs, attempts to handle problems the education system is not set up to handle (family dysfunction), and reworking content and delivery so that it appears to be politically correct. The result is counterproductive; the additional resources often actually work against effective teaching and reduce the effectiveness of the education system.
Parents with more money tend to talk more to their kids and encourage and support them more. Makes them better students. Their schools show good test scores. That doesn't mean more money would help the schools of parents who don't talk to their kids enough and don't encourage them and don't support them as much.
It's easy to claim that other people's money will fix the problem, hard to apply limited resources in an effective way that actually does fix the problem.
a resident of Crescent Park
on Aug 24, 2009 at 12:22 pm
The cry for increases in spending/student is a union message. As mentioned above, there are numerous examples to disprove the asserted direct relationship (i.e. Wash DC) between spending and results.
The cost for wages and benefits has increased dramatically at public schools over the last 20 years.
Look at many charter schools to see that superior outcomes in terms of student scores and college admissions can occur with less (not more) spending, but changes in other areas of focus.
At the request of a friend who helps fund local charter schools I discussed incentive compensation plans as used in the tech industry with the executive educator who is building a plan to offer incentives for teachers who improve students' scores. I think that is a productive path.
Even Obama, despite the obvious union bias, seems to as well or he would not have put the Federal program in place to give grants to states offering teacher incentives. Now our state needs to undo the law specifically forbidding it.
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 24, 2009 at 3:18 pm
"The cry for increases in spending/student is a union message. As mentioned above, there are numerous examples to disprove the asserted direct relationship (i.e. Wash DC) between spending and results."
So, if we make our teachers work for nothing, all the students will be Einsteins?
a resident of Crescent Park
on Aug 24, 2009 at 10:55 pm
How in the world do you jump to a conclusion like that from what I stated?
If what you say above were true, it would absolutely support the idea of a direct relationship between spending and results-an inverse one.
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 25, 2009 at 11:41 am
"Paul, How in the world do you jump to a conclusion like that from what I stated? If what you say above were true, it would absolutely support the idea of a direct relationship between spending and results-an inverse one."
Au contraire. If you understood statistics you'd know my scenario is a quite possible outcome if no causal relationship in fact exists. It's called an outlier. Many people like to front favorable outliers as the norm, as with your Washington DC example. (It's cited all the time, BTW) Many people fall for the trick. As the man said: lies, d--- lies, and statistics.
Now then, do you really believe your thinly veiled implication that we could spend less and get more? Heck, I'd be ecstatic to achieve that little miracle just at my neighborhood gas station.
a resident of Crescent Park
on Aug 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm
My 'implication' is not 'spend less and get more'. It is 'spend the same or less, and get at least the same.'
I do not believe that throwing in more money is the cure for every education problem or goal. However many do believe that more money for increased teacher compensation is always the cure, and that is not our current problem.
Outliers are called such for a reason. They often are used to help explain away discrepancies in flawed theories.
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 25, 2009 at 1:01 pm
"My 'implication' is not 'spend less and get more'. It is 'spend the same or less, and get at least the same.'"
Spend the same, get the same: Normal causality, right? Spend less, get at least the same: Be sure to tell us how you make that work at the local gas pump. The cops usually call it 488.
"They [outliers] often are used to help explain away discrepancies in flawed theories."
But far more often to promote flawed dogmas.
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 25, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Paul -
By comparing this to the price of gas, you seem to be arguing that you always get more when you pay more, and only get more when you pay more.
But this is just not true.
You do not get more by paying more for medicine, if it is the wrong medicine. Many times, even if it is the "right" medicine.
Corporations do not get more of a contribution to profit or growth from an IT department that spends more than those of other corporations.
These are not outliers, rather, they point out that when it is not obvious to the key stakeholder how to obtain results from an activity, service, or product, and there is a large and complex delivery mechanism for the results, it's easy for agents in the mechanism to take money out of the system without providing any value to the end result.
That's why it's possible to spend more money on education without seeing any benefit, and why some people think we can reduce the money spent without hurting results. And why some people think spending more money is not the answer to improving our education sysetm.
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 25, 2009 at 8:42 pm
"common myth": You make valid points about spending vs. benefits.
There are lots of theories and "I thinks" in these posts. How about some real data? A quick search brought up:
Table 1. Summary of Public School System Finances for Elementary-Secondary Education by State: 2005-06
Web Link
This shows DC was third in spending.
US Department of Education Institute of Education Statistics at Web Link
Has anyone in the CA education system talked to states who rank in the top 5 to find out what they're doing to make their systems work? Or is there just a lot of thrashing going on, e.g., arguing over textbooks or new math vs. new new math or blaming the teachers' union or blaming the parents or ….?
Obviously there are states that know how to educate their kids. Why don't we just ask them how they do it?
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 25, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Pat -
Thanks for acknowledging the possibility that money does not always equal results. It's true that we are armchair analysts here. It's hard to get enough real, unspun data regarding California's public education system to support understanding the whole.
I think your question is a case in point on money not always yielding results.
"Obviously there are states that know how to educate their kids. Why don't we just ask them how they do it?"
I would be very surprised if there is not money in the California public education budget allocated for this and spent on this. I would be shocked if there have not been expense reports filed for travel for this specific purpose. Probably including travel to Hawaii and also to other countries to learn about how their schools are so effective.
Yet we seem not to have seen the benefit.
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 26, 2009 at 9:20 am
I don't understand why parents aren't marching in the streets with torches and pitchforks. There are union rallies and gay rights rallies and political rallies – all important. But education -- the most personal issue and the bedrock of our country – doesn't get much in the way of public outcry. WHY NOT?
Why aren't parents rallying in Sacramento demanding answers?
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 26, 2009 at 3:50 pm
"Corporations do not get more of a contribution to profit or growth from an IT department that spends more than those of other corporations."
Finally, a definite statement. But why do you believe return is completely decorrelated from investment? What failed school taught you that? You certainly didn't learn it in the real world.
And note this conundrum: Our schools have been allegedly failing since 1955, when "Why Johhny Can't Read" came out. And our current education critics are products of those "failing" schools. What could they know about proper education?
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 26, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Paul -
We are degenerating to ad-hominem arguments, I prefer to avoid them.
I have previously acknowledged a correlation between money and school output. Basically, families that provide better support for students tend to live in places that provide more money to schools.
I am trying to open the minds of those who think the only way to improve our schools is to throw more money at them. I don't agree that in our current public education system more money will result in more effective education.
You have two children, one a spendthrift and the other an investment genius. You will give more money to the spendthrift; the genius doesn't need it. Is there a correlation between your financial investment and your financial return?
a resident of Downtown North
on Aug 26, 2009 at 5:29 pm
"We are degenerating to ad-hominem arguments, I prefer to avoid them."
Me too. That's why I focus on ideas, not people.
Maybe you are referring to my non-person-specific conundrum. Everyone I challenge tries to deflect. If you have a response I'd like to see it.
Now, your argument is that "families that provide better support for students tend to live in places that provide more money to schools." Presumably these families are reasonably intelligent. Why would they give more money to their schools knowing it makes no difference, that they could buy the same education for less? Could they be astutely investing in their schools to help their children? Palo Alto does that consistently and well.
"You will give more money to the spendthrift; the genius doesn't need it. Is there a correlation between your financial investment and your financial return?"
The question is badly posed: who would give money to a spendthrift expecting a financial return? However, savvy private equity firms have gotten very wealthy by cannily investing in undercapitalized enterprises.
a resident of South of Midtown
on Aug 27, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Another Myth, Do you have some ideas about how to go about improving the education children are getting without spending additional money? In Palo Alto we already have many parents volunteering in many classrooms doing things teachers used to do such as grading papers, working with small groups, leading projects, setting up computers, cleaning, organizing, etc. I remember having a room parent in grade school who brought in a batch of brownies from time to time but not one parent ever spent time in the classroom. We have PIE and PAFE on top of our high property taxes. Each semester we write many checks to pay for things like lab fees, special notebooks, gym clothes. In my day these were provided by the school or we did without them. So why do the dollars spent per child, if adjusted for inflation, not match up with what the children receive? I believe there are countless additional costs associated with running a school than in my day. Building codes are far more stringent, many a rule has been made and must be followed and that costs money. From earthquake safety standards to fire prevention measures, all this adds up. Add in Tinsley, whereby Palo Alto must educate children from other communities, who may not be paying into the system, a penalty for having worked so hard and succeeded. Now throw in the extra time that is now occupied with teaching multiculturalism, catching up ESL students, enforcing peanut bans, political correctness, and reworking the math curriculum ad nauseum and you have few classroom hours to spend on the three rs. In my case, I had a bare bones primary education, for the most part dull, uninspiring, and disheartening. To try and learn in that environment was to exert the full force of my will just to stay awake during the tests. High school was similarly tedious and perfunctory. I'd trade it for the problems we have here in a heartbeat. However, in all its argumentative, irritating, contentious weirdness, somehow when my kids go to school they are presented with a wonderful array of engaging, colorful, challenging, mind expanding experiences. In spite of all that is wrong here, they do learn and this is why I'm happy with their STAR test results. Now we return to what matters the other 364 days out of the year - everything else!
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 27, 2009 at 11:06 pm
Another Parent -
I think we could benefit from a measure of longitudinal progress in students. The biggest problem from my point of view is vacuuming money in order to provide higher average scores as output, when the input to the system includes so many non-native English speakers and children from dysfunctional families relative to what's required for a successful school experience. Let's define progress and measure it for individuals.
As I see it, Palo Alto is in a separate world from the overall Prop 13 and educational funding issue in the state. The students in Palo Alto are not nearly so difficult to educate.
a resident of South of Midtown
on Aug 28, 2009 at 2:14 pm
It would be interesting to do the analysis of all Palo Alto properties cost values to see how much Prop 13 is costing Palo Alto. I know you can look up any property taxes at County of Santa Clara, Tax Collector's Office website and figure out what cost basis they are calculated off. I looked up property taxes for all houses on our short street of 1950-ies track houses, all pretty much the same, and was shocked at how big is the difference in property taxes paid. We bought our house 5 years ago and pay $17,000 a year while all of our neighbours pay between $2,000 - $5,000/year. Most are not the original buyers of the houses, they inherited them from parents or trusts, several do not even live there but rent the houses out.
I did not realize that Prop 13 protects against value increase of all properties, not just primary residencies. But it seems rather unfair to see a family of lawyers or doctors moving in the inherited house and pay such low property taxes. Hope the decent Palo Alto beneficiaries of Prop 13 make up by donating bigger $$ amounts to schools and communities.
a resident of South of Midtown
on Aug 28, 2009 at 3:56 pm
We also pay a very high property tax compared with our neighbors. It seems unfair to be paying this much when the neighbors benefit from the increase in property values which is a direct result of the schools that we are paying for, but are not expected to contribute much to them. Also I agree that the next generation in the home, who are in the same job market as we are, are paying so much less than we while sending their children to the school we are funding. It is just not fair. And no, I doubt very much that they are making up the difference by donating to the schools!
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 28, 2009 at 10:28 pm
I'm glad there is interest in discussing Prop 13.
I have my own views on it, and would like validation or enlightenment, in whole or in part.
I think it is fair, because everyone knows what their tax is and the limit on how much it can be. I think a tax that forces people out of their homes because their neighborhood has become expensive is unfair.
Someone moving into California now gets the result of the efforts of those who previously bought here. Everyone steps on the train with the same rules.
I agree that inheritance is a perturbation and don't know what to make of the ability to sustain low property taxes while increasing the cost basis of inherited property to market value for capital gains purposes. I guess the thinking is that one ought to be able to work their whole life in order to provide something more for their children, rather than to provide something more for a famous movie star to spend as he sees fit.
But mostly I see Prop 13 in the context of taxation overall. I see three main avenues for tax in California: income tax, sales tax, and property tax. Income tax and sales tax can be arbitrarily raised by transitory governmental representatives to any level the state determines to be necessary. Prop 13 limits the increase in property taxes.
Income tax and sales tax take money from those who are earning a lot or spending a lot even if they own very little; property tax takes from those who own a lot even if they earn very little or spend very little.
In a sense then, a bias away from property tax rewards those who save or invest by allowing them to increase home asset value more than asset tax. These people do not help the short term economy. A bias against income tax rewards those who help the short term economy by generating income; a bias against sales tax rewards those who help the short term economy by spreading their wealth. Obviously, we don't have these last two biases.
For long term economic stability, those who save and invest provide the backbone of the economy by ensuring there is capital to help generate income and eventually enable those who pay sales and income taxes. I don't know if it follows that the savers and investors should reap tax benefits to help the state economy, but maybe they should.
This whole analysis ignores the putative allocations of these various taxes, and I think it is appropriate to ignore them because the state government moves money from one pocket to another as gracefully as a pick-pocket.
a resident of South of Midtown
on Aug 28, 2009 at 11:21 pm
That is all too true about the state government. And I agree with you about the main concepts you outline. However, the people in Palo Alto who are sitting on properties worth millions when they paid thousands for them, and who will then sell them for a giant profit or leave them to the next generation who will perpetuate the disparity between what they pay into our city and what people like me pay are not pulling their weight and are reaping huge benefits at the expense of the rest of us. The reality is that the infrastructure, including schools, police, transit, roads, etc., cost a huge amount and they are not paying for it. I agree they should not have to lose their homes because they have increased in value. However I also do not agree that they should not pull their weight in the community. It is just pie in the sky to believe people are entitled to a free ride for many many years and on into eternity. The gap should be narrowed enough that those of us who have only been here ten or fifteen years are not paying a hugely disproportionate amount. It simply isn't fair and it isn't working.
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 28, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Would the overall scheme be fair if property tax protection ended at death?
Also, if I remember right, part of the reason for Prop 13 was disgust at an inability of our state government to curtail spending.
Which is the stronger objection, that Prop 13 is unfair, or that the government needs more money?
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 29, 2009 at 12:37 am
Common myth,
No, it wasn't outrage at government spending. The real spur was a system of frequent property assessments that resulted in frequent property tax increases. So not how the money was spent, but on how much was collected. Property owners were paying increasingly higher taxes as a result of a real-estate boom.
And as a lifelong Californian, I've been adversely affected by Prop. 13--it helped wreck the schools, which means I had to wait and wait before I could afford to buy in a decent school district. And, since I had to wait, I pay a lot in property taxes.
a resident of Barron Park
on Aug 29, 2009 at 8:26 am
"I think it is fair, because everyone knows what their tax is and the limit on how much it can be." You seem to be saying that any tax is fair, provided that you know what it is in advance. So, for instance, you'd be OK with a system that doubled the property taxes of anyone with a Z in his or her name. Sorry, I'd have to agree with Another parent here: The system is unfair and most people are not pulling their weight.
If we feel it is unfair to turf out retirees on fixed incomes because of property taxes, the fix should be to turn those taxes into a lien. The whole thing of passing the property to kids or grandkids is pure scam.
Obviously, I have not been living here for 20 years, and I am one of those who shoulders the burden for his neighbors. Although I moved here for the schools, I make it a point to give absolutely nothing to PIE and vote against every additional tax burden benefitting schools (the last one is particularly egregious since it is pegged to property value).
a resident of Midtown
on Aug 29, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Why do you think Palo Altans vote for additional taxes for schools and libraries and the like - because they are pegged ot property values and most palo Altans have low cost basis, so of course they say yes to these measures, because it $100/year for a library bond is not as big of a deal for them as $1,000/year for those of us who have market value cost basis. If the propositions were changed to a fixed amount, perhaps such measures won't get such an overwhelming approval rate.
a resident of South of Midtown
on Aug 30, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Goose, I agree with you. And Myth, having the property tax boondoggle end at death would be a start. On the one hand, people who work hard and want to leave their children something have the right to do so. On the other, letting them continue to live on the backs of those of us who have not been so fortunate as to inherit such a skewed situation is just wrong. It's enough that they inherit a property that has inflated in value. Inheriting a tax on it from yesteryear hurts our city and our schools and me.
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 31, 2009 at 9:45 am
Paul -
"You seem to be saying that any tax is fair, provided that you know what it is in advance. So, for instance, you'd be OK with a system that doubled the property taxes of anyone with a Z in his or her name."
This objection is not fitting. Equal treatment is a given and is a separate matter from visible impact or predictability. Prop 13 doesn't care if you are old or young, rich or poor, can afford the house you bought or not, doesn't care about skin color, sexual preference, racial or ethnic history, doesn't care if you're smart or stupid, have a "z" in your name or not. Everyone buying a house at a given time gets the same treatment by Prop 13.
Here's a way to see the point: Which mortgage agreement is more fair: 1) the terms can be changed arbitrarily by the lender at any time without limit; 2) the terms can be changed depending on described circumstances subject to pre-established limits?
As I see it, you are essentially arguing that a house is (or should be treated for tax purposes as) an investment rather than a home. So you think when the value goes up a lot the taxes should go up a lot, too.
Would you think Prop 13 would be fair if it applied only to owner-occupied homes?
a resident of South of Midtown
on Aug 31, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Myth, When the cost of running a community rises, it is up to all members to carry their share of the burden. I am not suggesting that we make the taxes equal for all, only that it not be so outrageously out of balance. When we bought our current home, we were not guaranteed that our taxes wouldn't go up. They go up any time the assessor chooses to value our home at a higher price. In fact, the assessor claims we have an extra bedroom which has never been in our home, so we are taxed for that as well. Since the value is relatively high already, our taxes are outrageous and an increase is huge compared with what our neighbors have to adjust to. Again we are being penalized and made to shoulder their share simply because of our timing. To add to this, when they leave a home to their children, those children inherit this same exemption from responsibility for their share of the costs of having a community. I suggest there must be a way to spread the responsibility more fairly without bankrupting anyone. I'm certain that with creative thinking this can be done. Prop 13, while well intentioned has created a situation that is not only unfair, but is bleeding our communities dry for the benefit of a few. These few seldom turn around and donate more, rather they keep this boondoggle in the family, allowing others to provide for them. It does not engender positive feelings among neighbors.
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Aug 31, 2009 at 5:20 pm
The ability of homes that are taxed at very low rates to be rented to families with school age children places a tremendous burden on the school system. Revenues are effectively capped, while the expenses can be increased without limit. At some point Palo Alto must cease to be basic aid district.
Prop 13 has created many landlords who are free-riding on the financial backs of more recent purchasers.
a resident of College Terrace
on Aug 31, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Well, I think that the several posts articulating how unfair Prop 13 is represents a view held by many.
OP thinks Prop 13 was not driven by outrageous and unlimited government spending; do these people who see Prop 13 as being unfair think that it should simply be repealed? Unlimited property tax increases with money "borrowed" for whatever purpose politicians choose just like we are seeing with PA utilities?
I personally am in favor of limits on tax increases, but completely agree the limits should be fair. And I agree that fairness has emotional, cultural, and intuitive components. I want to limit tax increases not just because I want to pay less tax; but primarily because historically civilizations with high taxes go bad. The people just don't live well enough to be creative and motivated, and learn to hate their government.
a resident of South of Midtown
on Sep 1, 2009 at 10:19 am
Myth, It does seem that we agree on the main points. I don't think a mindless repeal of 13 is the answer. The basic idea behind it was sound - when given a blank check, politicians will expand the spending until everyone is overtaxed beyond a reasonable limit (for a lovely example you have only to look at the bill(ions) for the current wars). Since 13 does exactly that with regard to people in my situation, and people who need to buy property here, for us it results in what you mentioned:
"The people just don't live well enough to be creative and motivated, and learn to hate their government." and I might add, 'those of their neighbors who receive a free ride.' Actually, I don't hate my neighbors - who can blame them for taking advantage? However I would support a change in the rules that eliminates the huge disparity and brings them more in line with their contributing neighbors. We are not hapless victims of our government. It is up to us to shape the laws and taxes in ways that work the best for all.
a resident of Duveneck/St. Francis
on Sep 1, 2009 at 2:31 pm
common myth,
It's not what I think--I was there and I know what people were complaining about--an overly efficient assessment situation. People thought very little about what the costs of Prop. 13 would be--there was no debate whether we were spending too much on our schools or freeways. It was all centered around people feeling that they were getting socked by high property taxes because the market value of their homes was rapidly increasing--even though owners didn't benefit from this unless they sold.
If there had been no real-estate bull market, there would have been no Prop. 13.
I favor a change to the state constitution which would time-out propositions. In other words, Prop. 13 would have to "pass" every ten years. A good law would, a bad law wouldn't. The voter proposition situation has led to many sloppy mindless laws over the years and it's screwed up the state government pretty seriously. I knew Arnie came in that he wouldn't be able to fix it, the problems are severe and structural. As it is, the state's ungovernable at a certain level.
And Prop. 13 benefits long-term property owners--and that means they're more likely to be older and more affluent. And white as it happens because of the way the state's population has changed in the last 30 years. It's intrinsically unfair because it almost guarantees that two properties with the same market value will not have the same property tax. Knowing that a system is skewed doesn't mean it's suddenly fair. Commercial property owners benefit the most--more likely to be long-term owners (particularly if the owners incorporate) and able to charge market value rents while still paying low property taxes.
Prop. 13 benefits the few at the expense of the many--that's kind of the definition of unfair.
a resident of College Terrace
on Sep 1, 2009 at 10:54 pm
It's what you think. I was there, too. Heard of Howard Jarvis? I recall the tax revolt aspect of the issue.
By the way, the impact on schools is what you think also. I saw the rapid degradation of Santa Clara Unified in the 70s, before Prop 13 passed. More recently, it has recovered nicely although it's been living with Prop 13.
A school system invests in long term programs, rules, processes, etc. and adopts values that take time to manifest themselves as quality education or poor quality education. If the money is gone, school quality gradually ebbs, if it ebbs at all. The schools were already poised for degradation, or already degrading, when Prop 13 passed. And I don't think the problem was money.
It may be that "Prop 13 killed our schools" is the best way to look at it. But it's not the only way for informed, thinking people to see it.
Do you consider housing prices to be as unfair as property taxes? Is it equally unfair that someone has to pay 10x now what someone else had to pay for the same house 20 years ago?
I agree that Prop 13 introduces skews, such as encouraging long term property owners. I happen to think that particular skew is a good thing (other things being equal), it promotes a long term view of community and individual property; it behooves owners to add genuine value as opposed to doing the kind of thing house flippers do.
I think rent control does the same thing. (It usually doesn't actually keep overall rents low. It's usually a lot like the Prop 13 scene, with neighbors in identical units paying vastly different rents. But it encourages long term living arrangements).
I also agree that propositions (and legislated laws) should time out, including Prop 13. But is there some way to prevent an anomaly caused by bad timing, such as an expiration during a depression or boom?
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Cherries and Berries
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Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength . . .
By Chandrama Anderson | 2 comments | 732 views
Meeting Other New Parents
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One more week to vote!
Don't forget to cast your ballot online. Voting ends May 29th. Stay tuned for the results in the July 21st issue of the Palo Alto Weekly.


text:
Games I (maybe you too) NEED to Play1vote I like it
bensinkula says: I don't think I'm the only one who likes Nox...but then again, I don't know many other people, personally, who've played it. A great game (one of the few on this list I've actually played!)
Beyond Good & Evil™
bensinkula says: I didn't know how to rate this one, so I gave 4 stars, but from all that I've heard, it is excellent...oh, and again, I've not played it myself.
RollerCoaster Tycoon: Deluxe
bensinkula says: This Mix is turning into quite the variety show! Nevertheless, I'm keeping RTC here, because, though it is wildly different than the other games in this Mix, it is really a wonderful game. Certainly eats away your free time too.
Advent Rising
bensinkula says: Again, haven't played it, but it seems really great. Another excellent RPG, I've heard.
Neverwinter Nights Diamond
bensinkula says: I've heard that it's the expansion packs that make this game worthwhile...but mostly because of story. Anyway, I'm really just interested in the gameplay of this myself.
bensinkula says: Maybe not a real RPG, but I hear the story is great. Definitely worth playing!
Heroes of Might and Magic® 3: Complete
bensinkula says: Apparently, HoMM3 is the best of the series...I recently picked up 5, and I like it so far, so if this one's better, then count me in!
Divine Divinity
bensinkula says: Not played it (again) but everything I hear is pretty positive!
SpellForce Platinum
bensinkula says: I don't have much to say here...not sure what this game is, but it seems neat!
Treat your GOGmix as your child - name it! ;)
Coming up with a cool and descriptive title should be your first priority. Being original is in your best interest - bet you wanna get lots of nice votes, right? Go all crazy if you want, but be sure to keep it civil!
So, what are the ingredients?
Pick a game that belongs in your GOGmix from the list, or find it by typing something in the text field. Relevance is key here - Earthworm Jim doesn't quite fit the "Sexiest heroines of all time" bill now, does it?
Justify your choice... Or not!
OK, so it's not required, but now that you went through the trouble of adding a game, telling everyone why you did it would be a nice finishing touch. After you're done here, add another game, rinse, repeat.
More GOGmixes:


text: I am installing a gas insert into an existing masonry fireplace. I've drilled a hole into the firebox for the gas line. I plan to direct wire the fan. Can I run electricity for the fan (shielded metal cable) through the same hole that I'm running the gas line? Installation instructions just advise to run a plug in cord to an outlet.


text:
Bam Bam Bronsolino gets up with the good people at Ruby Hornet for the latest leak off their upcoming LP, Closed Session Vol. 2. Action Bronson gets paired up with Thelonious Martin for the track "Blackbird." It's not a Bronson track without some food references, for those not privy to Chicago cuisine (me), Blackbird is a famous restaurant in the Windy City. Check a mini doc on the song's conception and the mp3 after the jump Closed Session Vol. 2 will be out in August and presented by MTV2 Sucker Free.
Get More: Sucker Free, MTV2


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Sep 2, 2012|
The Red Sox are coming apart at the seams, and Pete brings in Red Sox broadcaster Dave O'Brien to discuss.
Transcript - Not for consumer use. Robot overlords only. Will not be accurate.
I beg your Sports Radio WEEI speech ever with the only WEEI supports -- give back to the phones just a bit older head out to Oakland at the coliseum. The new corporate name this week but they're -- a bright Red Sox a broadcaster. A join me hi David how are you my friend. -- I have been better although it's a delightful day here and Oakland California just beautiful. Everything is fine. Except for the play on the field with the Red Sox have done on what is really been a terrible road trip I can't remember. In my own memory. As far as bad road trips attend or race thumb but. That this one is right up there one of the worst the Red Sox have had in many many years. Well no question you remember on a New York -- fairly young guy but you've you've had a very successful broadcast degree you've been around situation like this before but it's not just on the field. It is in the dugout it's in the club house. And it's and Bobby -- offers its front office it's the GM it's the ownership that's what is that that. It's up it's a big time group effort given that the group reference. Yeah it has to do when you're 23 games under 500 since last September 1 you can point to a lot of different things. I think you start with the pitching -- it's been pretty disgraceful. When you look at. And on five road trip losses of ten to 321 needed to. Seven to one bit. Really this has been going on since since the 2011 season you know we we kind of tried to -- people for it through the of the heat of last summer. That when a team has an ER re ranked eighth ninth or tenth. Even worse than that this year. You're not gonna go very far but you know the offense did ten do I think kind of throw us off a little bit at times because. When you win a game fifteen to four everyone thinks everything's fine. But this is a team that although it can score he can't keep the other guy from scoring in. It was there's been another development that I think is really disturbing and that is the Red Sox don't walk anymore they didn't take a walk last night. They don't grind down counts anymore they don't get into the opponent's bullpen early the way they used to. I think that's a huge factor. In why the club does lose games it in bunches the way it does the pitching has been terrible. But that's another factor that needs to be addressed of many in the offseason under. I totally grew to that point I brought up a couple weeks ago myself on when the show -- I was doing and it's ironic. You're an open right now with the guy who invented it or not enter a big part of it. And how the Red Sox. You don't develop their ratings dollar so successful last year's -- being. What he has done that's that's the irony of the whole situation but I brought up to assure you couldn't be more correct but let me ask you. About Bobby Valentine I heard their pregame show last night with fuel and I was quite I know it's a tough situation if you went on to say it I was quite frankly disgusted by his treatment -- to be honest. Different to say didn't know either tiger mad and I just -- -- on the year well I thought it was amazing about having some guts and heart. Some integrity which right now this team has not a bit and I think the manager has completely checked out David I think he's gone it. Well I I don't see Bobby coming back in these circumstances -- I don't think he's going to be able to survive it and no one wants to talk about it right now but. When you when you see Bobby around the ball club. The other is certainly a fire that has gone out in him -- it's very odd in spring training. Bobby was the most energetic guy. On those fields in Fort Myers -- bouncing from fielder fielding was everywhere. I was involved in relay drills who's involved in running drills and then you know once the season started he almost became a different guy and and I I don't think you can throw everything at the feet of Bobby Valentine I think when you've got a pitching staff that a struggle like this one has. And you have all of these injuries those are reasons why the Red Sox are what they are today. The thing to me though is. There was so much good feeling that came out -- betrayed the mega trade with the Dodgers in freeing up all that payroll flexibility but what we're left with is a less competitive ballclub with over a month the baseball to play. And that means it's going to be tough to watch I think this team could easily lose ninety games. Oh no question about it especially you look at his schedule exception of the blue jays or not tie with image you know in the loss column a very well could be ahead of them by next week but. Besides those two series we got that you know the Orioles yankees and blue jays a couple of times in Tampa Bay there as well. All those teams are fighting their bombs off for a playoff position where B division or wild card they're gonna fight to the end so does not have any let up for vote. -- right and you know so we're looking at what's to come we have to look beyond and the rest of the month of September we have to look to next season. And there's reason to be hopeful with all of the payroll flexibility in the and a chance to do with the right way is -- -- said with a lot more disciplined but. In the short term it's going to be worse it's gonna get worse before it gets better and I think you know we're all beginning to understand just how bad it can be. A white about the Bobby once again though last not last night a lot when I say that obviously in the last couple hours to David. To me. The he shouldn't be there right now he should be gone. It is it's become it's it's he's checked out those comments he made apple over the last couple of days and I've defended him a lot this year as you know I really and I'd agree with you about the pitching and everything you said a 100% believe me. But what has happened and transpired the last couple of days he's got to go he doesn't care I don't think he cares I think he's checked out on this team might -- the team is checked out on him. They put this team -- to not show any guts whatsoever after getting slapped around like they have by the Oakland days. These last two games to have no response at all and how much they've been somebody in the head. What show. So solve the social anybody that you care at least in any way shape report shows up spark or grit and I've seen none of it. -- I I. I can't disagree he was you know and when assessment this goes in the second base and doesn't even have a slide. On a stolen base that reflects very very badly on everybody. And then obviously the dust up between miss Davis and Pedroia last night. Alfredo services a wild card he's a different cat everybody understands that by now. But you've got to play the game professionally and if they're not in sync on pick off throws. They better get in sync because those are gonna wind up in center field and you're -- embarrass yourself even more. And I kind of play cannot continue I think that the question now for -- like Bobby Valentine his what do you do. You call a team meeting and you know when your when your facing last place at this point. And Adrian Gonzales and Josh Beckett and Carl Crawford evolved and built the way. What good would that do it it would anything do any good would you if you fired Bobby Valentine would that make an appreciable difference in any thing. It it's an open question now in the Red Sox are running on record saying Larry Lucchino said. He's gonna manage the club through the end of the season I believe that's gonna happen I don't think they'll make a move on Bobby until the season is over if in fact they do that. OK and I and I just brought this up to before -- and I understand we're Larry Lucchino says in people and in -- -- that people will be upset because it brokers weren't I think he'd be mistaken. He did -- -- realize what was going to happen right now and right now this manager in my opinion has checked out in this team the team is checked out on him. Football -- there for the rest of the season see what happens. I always tell which dontrelle Dave I just can't imagine next Friday night with John for Ellison across the way and all that hype that's gonna come up what he's gonna have to deal with. And Bobby Valentine's sitting. In the dugout getting booed mercilessly along with a lot of these guys how that's gonna be perceived I just think put the man out of his misery now. Yes and I am look I think a lot of people on press row or discussing the same thing and you're gonna see a lot of columns about that in the coming days. And Bobby Valentine. It is certainly a guy who is. I think very very confused about what is immediate future is going to be and the future of this ball club through the rest of September. He doesn't wanna sit there and watch this he doesn't wanna see. The team make embarrassing mistakes and drop pop ups and file ground and and watch guys not slide when -- when they steal bases against the Red Sox. -- what I think you're absolutely right that everybody else has something to play for. With -- very few exceptions like Seattle in the upcoming series everybody else is gonna give the Red Sox not September columns. But their best effort their best pitchers and their best the best competitive will. And it could get worse and I have a feeling it's going to in the short term. I think the one thing you have to do when he we all have to do -- step back a little bit and go but the trade happened that was very good for the Boston Red Sox I think. I think in the long term it's gonna benefit them well. Maybe this is what we have to absorb for a short period of time in order to get back to competitive baseball against the -- stuff to watch. Are there and you're busy thanks so much I know it's tougher as a broadcaster to -- a -- penciled in them being down three nothing in the first for the second way that. That's the toughest thing he does it every single night it's two to nothing three to nothing four to nothing in the very first couple of any. And this is not a club that. Has the ability to come back on people. At least it hasn't shall -- at. That's the that's the hardest thing you almost want to jump to. The fifth or sixth inning to get that first inning -- -- -- but that's been a problem all season -- -- -- absolutely all right Dave -- thank you so -- -- for the started the broadcast about an hour -- -- I've been thanks thanks a lot Dave O'Brien great -- bright Red Sox broadcaster coursing along which are -- Jokester on have a Red Sox call for you coming up. I 320 this afternoon that's when I'll check out here.


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Hi everyone, got a e46 320d SE, 01 pre facelift two days ago and wanted to sign up to the site as forums are the best places to get knowledge on those little problems that can arise.
My last car was a Seat Ibiza diesel non turbo [64bhp], so im still getting used to the extra power/size/equipment etc!!
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Many Irish people use this site?


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USC Women's Sand Volleyball Beats Pacific In First Road Match Of 2013
March 19, 2013
Alexa Stonish Photo Gallery
MORAGA, Calif. - The No. 3-ranked USC women's sand volleyball team, playing on the road for the first time in 2013, beat Pacific, 4-1, in a team dual match on Tuesday (March 19) at Commons Park in Moraga, Calif.
The Women of Troy up their record to 6-2, while new program Pacific fell to 0-2.
USC to 2-0 sweeps from its first four pairs teams. The No. 1 duo of Kirby Burnham-Stevi Robinson defeated Mia Feiner-Kat Schulz, 21-12, 21-17, No. 2 Katie Fuller-Cinnamon Sary beat Anne-Sophie Bauer-Jennifer Sanders, 21-17, 21-18, No. 3 Eve Ettinger-Brian Russ beat Hannah Clancy-Gillian Howard, 21-14, 21-18, and No. 4 Brooke Fournier-Alexa Stonish defeated Megan Birch-Katy Tagart, 21-13, 21-11. USC's only loss came at the No. 5 spot in 3 sets as Kimmy Whitson-Alicja Wilk outlasted Kati Duddridge-Sam Hirschmann, 15-21, 21-19, 15-11.
USC returns to Moraga's Commons Park on Wednesday (March 20) for a 3:30 p.m. team dual match against host St. Mary's, another first-year program.
USC 4, Pacific 1


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As the sun rose on Staten Island, riders were already queued up and ready for the ferry. It was a very diverse group. Some were decked out in team or club kits, others looked like commuters heading to work (minus the bag). The lucky ones had warm layers on, while others shivered in the cool morning air. The line continued to grow as thousands of riders were preparing to converge on Manhattan for the start of the TD Five Boro Bicycle Tour.
Once on the ferry, I had a chance to eat my light breakfast I had brought and chatted with other riders. One couple came in from Connecticut for their second year riding the event. The woman told me about rides they do back home, including one that you have to use one of the oldest ferry's in the nation to get to the island for. We chatted about bikes and had her husband pick my 18 lb road bike up when he came back from the bathroom, telling him she wants one like mine next. Her 25 lb hybrid was fine for commuting to the market, but for tours, she wants a road bike too.
The ferry landed in Manhattan, and the masses of riders started to flood into the city. Many people were not sure exactly where they were going, but it was hard not to just go with the flow and find your way. The closer we got, signs and volunteers began to appear, along with the staging zones for the later groups. And then, a wall of people appeared. This was the back of the staging for the first wave. Up ahead, VIP's and the Giro d'Italia Gran Fondo riders were staged, resplendent in their pink numbers, many also wearing their Gran Fondo jerseys, with the Giro d' Italia trophy on display in front of the starting gates.
As the minutes ticked down to the start of the first wave, riders made their final checks on their bikes. Others took the time to take pictures with friends and strangers, something you might not normally see in New York City. Today, we were all friends, united by two wheels, given the chance to ride free on streets, bridges, and highways, traditionally dominated by cars. The police presence was greatly appreciated by all to ensure the safety of the participants. Many riders displayed stickers to show support for Boston after the recent Boston Marathon bombings. The theme of the event became "Ride For Boston." Funds collected through the sales of the stickers were donated to One Fund Boston to support those affected by the tragic bombings. Announcements were made, "God Bless America" and the national anthem were played, and the horns were sounded, signaling the start of the ride.
At the beginning, the pace is typically slow. With between 6,000-8,000 riders, it is best to take your time and ride cautiously until things start to thin out. Being the largest mass ride in the US, many charity events are smaller than even one wave of the Five Boro Tour. It felt good to get moving again though. The temperatures were only slowly climbing, and the cool breeze off the rivers was not helping. Riders of all ages and abilities streamed down 6th Avenue, as curious pedestrians looked on. It was an interesting sight to ride along and come across the many NYPD officers riding patrol bicycles as part of the event. Some looked more at home than others, as I am sure that many at least ride recreationally off duty.
The first major attraction the ride hit was Central Park. While many residents ride through the park normally, this time, it was almost completely closed off for just cyclists. Missing were walkers, runners, and inline skaters they normally would see.
The first bridge the ride crossed was the Madison Ave Bridge. It was not nearly as exciting as other bridges later in the ride, but still, one down, four to go. The ride also made it's short appearance in the Bronx. A water stop and right turn later, the course went over the Third Ave Bridge and back into Manhattan. For some, this is one of the rides highlights, a trip down FDR Drive. One NYC based cyclist I was riding with was almost giddy over the fact that we were on the often congested road. Some riders preferred to ride along at a leisurely pace, but the flat roads provided those who wished to go faster the opportunity to do so.
NYC might be known for its potholes, but during the ride, not many were seen. Some riders opted for the plush ride of mountain bikes, a large number were on road or hybrid style bikes. There were the occasional choppy sections, grates, or cracks you wanted to avoid, you could easily ride a road bike. A cyclocross bike with wide slicks could be the perfect bike for the route. Forgiving enough for the rough sections, but still nimble for the Strava segments over the bridges, if you chose to make a run at them.
After the trip down the FDR, the route took a turn over the Queensboro Bridge, and into Queens we went. The course took a turn north up to the Astoria Park rest area. All rest areas along the course were stocked with goodies for the riders to consume. KIND was on hand to provide nutritious snacks, and Fairway had tables with fruit waiting. Water was plentiful, with at least 20 large bottles ready for riders at all times. The Bike New York did a great job making sure that riders had what they needed to get through the ride, even if they were not completely prepared nutritionally. At this point, one of my only complaints faced the riders in the early group. Organizers held the ride so that the police could work to clear the route ahead. While it is a complaint, it is understandable under the circumstances. It could have been that the riders arrived faster than expected, but it really hurt the flow of the ride for the earliest group.
All throughout the course, entertainment zones were set up to provide riders with encouragement to pedal on. Gospel choirs, DJ's, bands, and even a drum line greeted riders in each of the boros, giving a taste of the neighborhood we road through. In other areas, volunteers were ready to help guide along the course, help with emergencies, and even offer a friendly cheer to help you up a hill.
The course then moved south through Queens to the Pulaski Bridge (Bridge #4) and continued along the East River. After passing through Williamsburg, it made a right hand turn to head to Dumbo, and the Brooklyn Bridge was in sight. I was disappointed that the course had not crossed the Brooklyn Bride, but logistically, it could be tough to shut down the bridge for an extended period of time. Another road that was a highlight for many was the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway. Riders made the climb out of the trench in Carroll Gardens, and continued on to the east of Red Hook. After about six miles of riding along the BQE, the final and most anticipated bridge of the tour was waiting to take riders to Staten Island, the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge. By far the longest bridge on the route, approximately a mile long, the view offered looks back to Manhattan, Staten Island, Bayonne, and the Upper Bay. Cargo vessels, ferries, barges, and their tugs moved along as riders crested the highest climb of the day.
On the other side, riders arrived to a festival atmosphere at the Ft. Wadsworth rest station. Vendors were on hand with food and drinks for riders, along with massage tables and plenty of volunteers handing out branded goods from the main sponsor, TD Bank. Music played while riders got their pictures taken in front of TD displays to celebrate their ride, but there was still another four miles to the finish. After another pause in the ride, police lead the way back to the St. George Ferry terminal to conclude the ride.
Riders again queued up to take the ferry back to Manhattan, many with smiles on their faces from riding a route that, for only once a year, is their's, free of cars.


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Somatoform and dissociative disorders
Elder, Ruth (2009) Somatoform and dissociative disorders. In Elder, Ruth, Evans, Katie, & Nizette, Deb (Eds.) Psychiatric and Mental Health Nursing. Mosby Elsevier, Sydney, Australia, pp. 370-387.
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• The somatoform disorders are psychiatric illnesses that present as physical disorders. • The somatoform disorders are not to be confused with malingering, which is the intentional production of symptoms to avoid some responsibility or duty. • Somatisation is a method of expressing anxiety and distress and is found in all cultural groups. • The distress and suffering experienced by clients with a somatoform disorder are real, although the medical basis for their symptoms is not. • Clients with a somatoform disorder are most frequently encountered in primary health care settings. • The dissociative disorders are marked by an abrupt, temporary change in consciousness, cognition, memory, identity or behaviour.
Impact and interest:
Citation counts are sourced monthly from Scopus and Web of Science® citation databases.
These databases contain citations from different subsets of available publications and different time periods and thus the citation count from each is usually different. Some works are not in either database and no count is displayed. Scopus includes citations from articles published in 1996 onwards, and Web of Science® generally from 1980 onwards.
Citations counts from the Google Scholar™ indexing service can be viewed at the linked Google Scholar™ search.
|ID Code:
|Item Type:
|Book Chapter
|Somatoform disorders, Dissociative disorders
|Australian and New Zealand Standard Research Classification > MEDICAL AND HEALTH SCIENCES (110000) > NURSING (111000) > Mental Health Nursing (111005)
|Current > QUT Faculties and Divisions > Faculty of Health
Current > Schools > School of Nursing
|Copyright Owner:
|Copyright 2009 Please consult the author.
|Deposited On:
|29 Mar 2010 05:38
|Last Modified:
|10 Oct 2015 14:13
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From Morris' Catster Photos[ View profile page ]
Leave A Comment | 2 people already have
Ahh, what a hansome 'n sweet pishure, Morris! WE be catebratin' u birfday here at the Bridge today! Whoo hoo! Let's pawty dude!
Love n hugs,
Smokey Joe 'n fumily
Love n hugs,
Smokey Joe 'n fumily
Thanks y'all!! It's a party here everyday! lol