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Comments on Prettier Accessible Forms
by Nick Rigby
118 Reader CommentsBack to the Article
I'm not a css-guru or something like that, but I think the habit to use scripting for styling, which I see more and more these days, isn't a very good thing. I'm convinced that there are tons of other ways to create a similiar, semantically correct, layout. If you want to create a website that's accesible in all browser and you want to use a css-property that isn't supported you just shouldn't use it.
Nick, great article and an important topic, since form-styling can be really difficult.
But your example (example_3) does not work in FF 18.104.22.168 (no extensions).
@Luc: I don't think so, because if you want to or have to achieve a complex layout sometimes it's the only way.
Luc is right - JavaScript for markup isn't necessary here because you can work with float and margin to hav a table-ish form layout like that. The best example I know comes from "Paul Armstrong":http://paularmstrongdesigns.com/examples/css/awesome-form.html and works great without any JS. Nevertheless, your article is really nice :)
Christian, you are right. But I experienced massive problems if a floated form is inside other floats (in IE, naturally).
Regarding my other post (#2); I did not mention it's FF/Win. FF/Mac does fine.
I've created several comparable layouts in the past with just grouping the label and input control with a div and using floats.
The point I'm trying to make is that if you have to turn to scripting to display a relative simple static layout correct, you should automatically be triggered to find an alternative solution, because your problaby taking the wrong a path to a solution.
Quote frome Molly E. Holzschlag's article "World Grows Small: Open Standards for the Global Web"
"Rely on JavaScript as an enhancement for, not a replacement of, website features."
Apart from the aforementioned issues with the JavaScript in use here, this seems like a solid solution for a practical problem.
I've been trying to figure out a good way to style up semantic forms, and this looks like a step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.
Good article, and thanks for sharing.
If I turn the CSS off, the example looks like rubbish. It looks a bit better in Lynx, but still not intuitive. For example the question "Which of the following sports do you enjoy?" has all the answers listed in one row - if it's a list of answers, why not mark it up as list?
And whenever I see this "mandatory fields marked *" kind of thing, I think, why don't they just add text "(mandatory)" or "(required)" after the field name?
BTW, the example is buggy: I see "null" written at the beginning of each field label ("nullName", "nullAddress", ...).
I want to mention, that despite the fact I partially don't agree with the author's vision, I do appreciate he took the time and effort to share his solution with the community. Don't want to sound to negative, just keep on sharing your toughts ^_^
Oh… those "null"-s I mentioned, they are generated by JavaScript. I'm using some weekly build of Opera 9, so it might be some bug in this build, but not very likely (works fine in FF and Konqueror).
@Nick, it seems to be my fault.
I have FF 18.104.22.168 on Windows. My colleague has the same and for him it works fine.
<quote>"Rely on JavaScript as an enhancement for, not a replacement of, website features."</quote>
But that's right what it is. It works without JS. It works also without CSS. It's just nicer with both.
I'm a bit unsure why use javascript, but it is a tricky issue this however does the lining up of labels / inputs https://secureonline.dwp.gov.uk/ice/
First of all, thank you for taking the time to write an article for ALA.
But I just don't see why half of what you have done here is needed? There are, as I'm told, approximately 4,356 ways of doing something but this seems to be the long way around.
The first thing I'm kind of stuck upon is the use of the ordered list, but that's really a minor detail since we can debate semantics all night before we realize that no two persons think alike.
It just seems a bit too bloated for what it's going to be used for"¦
Thanks for the aricle.
I do like how you have used an ordered list for each form item and i would have liked to see the radio buttons being listed as 5.1 and 5.2 :)
I don't think js should have been used, people are right by saying that too many js solutions are being created to do (with a big of creativity) what css can do.
Finally, I also noticed that it partially worked in IE7 Beta 2. What didn't look correct where the legends what didn't align correctly.
Thank you for another take at providing semantic markup for forms. However, I was really disappointed with the CSS/JS solution.
I have always managed to get a very long way with floating the labels and input fields to the left combined with, the "clearing without structural markup" technique for standards compliant browsers and the usual hasLayout hacks for MSIE.
bq. And whenever I see this "mandatory fields marked *"? kind of thing, I think, why don't they just add text "(mandatory)"? or "(required)"? after the field name?
I was hoping someone would mention this. It's to do with convention, and convention morphing into semantics.
The convention has been established, like it or not, that an asterisk next to a form label implies that the field is 'required', it has done in visual mediums for a long time, requiring little-to-no explanation in almost every imaginable usage. Its continued, consistent use for this has led to even users of non-visual browsers (such as screen-readers) recognising it as meaning 'required' [1].
The crux of the matter is that an asterisk, either visually or audially, now _means_ 'required', so any further explanation is generally spurious and a waste of time, space & effort.
1. This assertation comes from a great deal of work a colleague of mine has done directly with disabled users, and their experience of using screen readers.
I have to state my support for the author on this scripting issue.
The CSS is supposed to be a "library" to be included without modification into any project. Not the cleanest way to make one single form look nice. I am not sure I will have use for it myself but I can see the benefits.
Even though it has been commented on already I also have to join in to say that the scripting is implemented unobtrusively for the purpose of keeping the HTML cleaner. If it is not to your liking just add the tags manually. It is not like te whole technique is based on javascript.
The thing that struck me though… (now I am really trying to make enemies in all camps)
...was the visual layout itself. It is usually preferable to have the labels right-aligned to visually link to their fields better. This is defenitely true when the length of the labels differ greatly. But this is something that anyone can modify to their liking. The technique in the article is still valid IMHO.
As a related read I've previously posted about the best way, from a accessibility point of view, to indicate required or optional fields in a form.
See "How to indicate required or optional form fields":http://justaddwater.dk/2006/03/29/how-to-indicate-required-or-optional-form-fields/
bq. Rely on JavaScript as an enhancement for, not a replacement of, website features
I agree entirely with that sentiment - which is why I think JS is perfectly justified in this situation.
The form works. It works without Javascript, it works without CSS. What both of them do is offer an enhancement to the form, by making it look better.
In general, I agree that styling is better done with pure CSS than scripting, but there are some times when this can't be done. On my own website, I use :hover pseudo-classes on arbitrary elements to make styling changes - this works in Opera and Gecko but not IE (does it work in IE7?). I could (when I have time and can be bothered!) include a script to modify the DOM so that this feature would work in IE ... which would be a sensible use of Javascript to augment the styling of the page.
bq. And whenever I see this "mandatory fields marked *"? kind of thing, I think, why don't they just add text "(mandatory)"? or "(required)"? after the field name?
Because it generally doesn't look as good to have "(mandatory)" written out in full next to every field - a coloured asterisk is unobtrusive yet clearly visible. If the asterisk is applied to the label, and is explained at the start of the form, there should be no accessibility or usability issues.
In general, I prefer to avoid the use of mandatory/optional fields, and only ask for the information that I really do need!
Just scanned the article, and jumped over recent comments:
* Using lists for input elements is at least "questionable". And in this case, you could achieve almost the same with "label" elements.
* Emphasizing asterisks is not really appropriate. Additional text would be more helpful, I fear.
* Use other filters/workarounds/hacks for your CSS (WTH is going on in the "form.cmxform legend" rule, accidentally put a "strong" element in there?), and ignore Mac IE.
I think this is a nice flexible approach to working with forms, but I don't think it's the most portable, nor do I think it's the most efficient. I agree with the sentiment of many of the other comments about using javascript to add style.
I've "written about forms":http://pennypacker.net/articles/bulletproof_web_forms_part_one myself lately and while I don't claim to have all the answers (and I'm certainly not as succinct), I'm using an accessible and XHTML strict method to achieve "a similar result":http://pennypacker.net/stuff/webdevarticles/forms/ex3.html
I do like the idea of the ordered list for the purpose of screen readers, however. That's something I'm very eager to experiment with.
Thank you for the article, I found parts of it thought provoking, even if I don't agree with every point that it makes.
*Rene*: I'd hazard to guess that this is caused by the use of addEventListener (which does not run only on Mozilla, as the author points out). The reason it only worked in Mozilla for the author is because the DOMContentLoaded event was originally a Mozilla specific event, but is now in Opera 9 (*which is now out of beta*). The DOMContentLoaded event was only added recently, so it is not in all of the beta copies of Opera 9.
I have an issue with the lead-in to this article… The client-side development/design team at the agency where I work has decided, as a group, that since forms output tabular data, it is permissible to use tables to display forms.
Is using bulleted lists to display forms really more semantically correct?
I've been using definition lists for essentially the same thing using the argument that semantically, it just makes sense.
<legend>Delivery Details</legend>

Name*

<input id="name" />

Is this address also your invoice address?*

<input type="radio" name="invoice-address" /> Yes
<input type="radio" ame="invoice-address" /> No
That way, you wouldn't end up with a wrapped fieldset at the end. This is, of course, assuming that you agree that the input labels define their input fields. If you don't, why not?
bq. The client-side development/design team at the agency where I work has decided, as a group, that since forms output tabular data, it is permissible to use tables to display forms.
Not at all. You might as well say that since your computer sits on a table, it's OK to use tables for anything that you run on your computer…
Forms *don't* output tabular data - what they return is far more aligned to a
 definintion list. The fact that it _can_ be exported into a table _if_ that's how you choose to run it is neither here nor there.
Having said that, I don't have a problem with using tables to get the form to appear as intended - as long as it linearises properly to give the same output as you or I might see on the screen. No, it's not ideal - but at the same time, it isn't the worst sin in the world of web design.
But it seems like you are really going out of your way to avoid the use of tables, and ending up with something that is almost as much markup (it would be about the same number of tags, if you weren't hiding the divs with JS), and much more JS. But when you get down to it, it is in fact tabular data. You have multiple rows, and two columns. The first column, like many tables, is used to identify the data in the remaining columns. The columns and rows form a grid that allow you to associate the items in the columns with the items in the rows.
The fact that it has the minimum number of columns to qualify as a table does not make it any less of a table, you have just used different mark-up, along with tricky CSS and JS to recreate a table. One could easily imagine more columns, such as a column of check marks to indicate required fields, or a column of hints for each row of what is allowable data for each row.
Erin - lists are still there, asterisks are still emphasized, and an suspected mistake has been fixed (cool). Where' "actual points missed".
*Brad*: I will give you that it is much simpler to put everything into a table, but it is not tabular data when you get down to it. When you get down to it, it is essentially a "question list", which is essentially a subset of a definition list (i.e., question : term :: answer : definition ). You're even allowed multiple dd's to each dt, so that allows you the ability to provide multiple answers (e.g., checkboxes) to each question.
Is this code actually intellectual property of Cimex Media? If I develop a sweet script at work, I don't think it is mine to distribute. Just a thought…good article.
*Jens*: While I'm torn on using what type of list to use (I'm currently leaning towards a definition list, and would use an unordered list before an ordered list like in the article), the point that I believe you're missing is not that you're emphasizing an asterick, but you're emphasizing the text used to indicate that it is a required field. This article is meant as a library to be used from project to project, so you're free to use whatever text within each tag that you please.
Could you use this for required fields: *?
Probably not, since it is not an actual abbreviation, but it seems like a good way to hide the bulky text.
You've clearly put a fair bit of work into this, but I'm sorry to say that it's got some serious problems, JavaScript aside:
# There's just no way in hell that an ordered list can be considered semantic markup for this. (This is an ordered list, a form simply isn't.)
# The colors look cool but are a form-over-function (har, har) usability problem: they give undeserved/irrelevant emphasis to the lower fields and the variable background color makes the asterisks harder to see, which seems to defeat the whole point of the exercise.
# I'm a big believer in TMTOWTDI(There's More Than One Way To Do It), but this seems like a really complicated way to solve a problem that's been solved for a long time. Marking required fields with a colored asterisk isn't exactly a new concept.
To me, this is squarely in the "because you can" bucket, not the "because you should".
I usually use definition lists when styling forms. As in the Article, fields are logically grouped using fieldsets. Then, I put the label for the field(s) that follow into a
, and all fields that belong to the item are put into a
 each. I know that it's not really a list of definitions, but definition lists have the advantage that they show what's belonging together prett well. Also, you can style
s to be clearing, floating left, and having a specified width, so you wouldn't need that javascript hack of yours. Just a suggestion ;)
Bottom line is I don't believe Javascript is necessary here (unlike "Jeremy's image gallery":http://alistapart.com/articles/behavioralseparation in today's other article, for example). Like previous commenters I have had a lot of success using floats (and a smattering of positioning) to style forms, including creating table-like layouts for complex (ie multi-fieldset/legend) forms from table-free markup. Predictably I don't have anything written up I can share just this minute (!!), but it looks like there's scope for more work - and lots more sharing of good ideas - in this area.
Although I think it's quite an interesting article I always wonder what's the idea behind all these kinds of hacks that people use in order to get rid of tables in cases like these.
I guess any kind of list would be more appropriate than a table in this case. But if you have to use hacks like the Mac/IE5.2 CSS hack and/or use JavaScript for lay-out (not event triggered) then why not 'hack' the understanding that it's better not to use a table in a case like this? I mean, it's a 'hack' that has been proved to be succesfull extensively. Why introduce new, more complex hacks for an old and simple one?
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the use of the -moz-inline-box property.
What is the point of coding to standards if we use a proprietary non-standard property to overcome a problem that could be handled properly?
Referring to the mozilla specific extension -moz-inline-block, I find it reasonable and acceptable to use this propietary extension. Though it is non-standard, Mozilla simply created the proprietary extension to implement a feature currently only in working draft form. Therefore, the whole JS 'hack' will become moot once the CSS 2.1 working draft becomes a recommendation. (as mozilla will simply remove the -moz prefix)
On a side note, I find mozilla's approach much better as opposed to the other browsers which implement working draft features. If removed from the recommendation, these proprietary extensions will then remain as implemented properties without the proprietary prefix they should have. In mozilla's case, it is correctly named as such, and is easily (and almost immediately) modified to remain in step with the spec (recommendation).
Way back when I read Designing with Web Standards for the first time, I remember Jeff warning about catching "divitis" when switching from table-based design to CSS.
Seems to me like today we've thrown out divs (with no semantic meaning) in favor of lists. We markup with lists and think up a reason to justify them later.
I loved the finished form in this example… a gorgeous product for not a lot of work; but a "list of form fields?" Come on ;)
It is clear that the author has taken great pains to test this so we don't have to. Thankyou! Content separated hacks whether they are JS or CSS are a way of life at the moment, and they at least enable us to use the HTML we want to which is the key, and has convinced the browser manufacturers that they need better support for CSS in the future. This is a good thing.
Can the same thing be done with floats? Perhaps, but the author and others have problems with them too so this is another solution to add to your armoury. Copy and paste some Javascript, and you are done. In the future, do a grep search to remove it.
Good work :-)
I quite like this solution, and whilst I do agree with many of the issues raised with ordered lists and the javascript, I like the ideas in play here.
My question for Nick, is why are you using "inline-block" as the display property for the label element at the top level, then change it to block further down? I couldn't find anything specifically addressing this in the article.
I ask because I recently had to develop a similar form design solution that didn't end up as clean as yours.
"Form input
"Form output
"More complex
Firstly, nice article, I like the "make it work" approach over absolute purity (javascript's ok if it works quickly and easily in my book).
One point of feedback, the layout doesn't seem work on Firefox 188.8.131.52 on Linux, the form inputs are aligned left against the labels instead of sitting neatly in a row.
Good article, got me thinking…
I'm curious that there haven't been more reports such as "that by Chris Leipold":http://www.alistapart.com/comments/prettyaccessibleforms?page=1#2 indicating a problem on Firefox. Here's a screen capture of how it renders on my FF 126.96.36.199 on Windows XP: "http://www.december14.net/bin/ala-form-ex3.png":http://www.december14.net/bin/ala-form-ex3.png
Nick, great article! From now on using
 inside my forms… As many others I've been using div's inside the fieldsets to be able to style the rows.
You could set the 's to float:left; with a certain width. Meanwhile set the ol li to overflow:hidden; which will make sure the li will stretch out. (if this doesn't work in ie, set it's width too…) In this case you won't have to use a display:inline-block; ?
Nick, that's it. I didn't realise that widths hadn't been set in the code; I just assumed the examples would already be "tricked out" to look like the screen grab near the top of the article.
Setting explicit widths on the inputs and textareas does fix things, but you then have to distinguish between regular text inputs, and checkbox/radio inputs as one size does not fit all.
Interesting approach, and it's always good to see alternative ways of doing things. Like other commenters, however, I've found that the same sort of effect can be achieved using only CSS and without recourse to proprietary properties. Every dependency you can eliminate opens up the number of users who will experience the form as you would wish.
Good article.
I'd be the first person to emphasize that tables should not be used for layout (except with tabular data), but I fail to see how the form presented in this example is not tabular data.
Imagine a form to collect information about your pickup basketball team. You'd have a column of row names, and then five columns with input fields. There's the name row, followed by five name fields to fill in. Then there's the position row, followed by five text boxes in which you put each player's position, etc. The name/value pair relationships are clear, and each field is labeled ("Name - Player one. Name - Player two," etc.)
How is this not a table? And then if it only has _one_ column of information to fill in, how is this any less a table?
Using tables for simple forms such as the one in this example also has the benefits of lists that were outlined in earlier comments—a screen reader gets to the table, and it reads, "Table with two columns and five rows" (so, just from the structure of the table, you know how many items there are not just down, but across, too), then it reads the summary and/or caption that you'll have added to your table, "Contact information form," or something else equally descriptive.
I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but to me, this type of form is clearly tabular data with name/value pairs.
This works fine on Safari, but the form fields aren't aligning properly using Flock's 0.7 beta on the Mac. Same thing when using Firefox 22.214.171.124 on the Mac—the form fields don't align evenly and are instead simply aligning left following the label for each.
The rest of the fields, however, display fine.
I haven't done much testing on the topic, but I wonder if styling the label element as display: compact has been given serious consideration?
I agree with almost all comments on this article
# don't try and find a use for lists when there is none. Though I must agree without CSS it looks nice. But I think the main issue is that without CSS it should be usable, not nice looking. a simple break will do.
# don't use -moz-inline-box, don't use inline-block (not yet that is)
For interested readers, I wrote an article in search of all possible float solutions for forms that have no additional markup. Let me know if you have more methods that I could include.
"floating forms article":http://test5.caribmedia.com/CSS/Secrets/members/michiel/floating-forms.html
I realize that the article isn't about inline-block, per se. But to me, it's one of the features I wish worked in FF/IE. :-/
I appreciate the article, Nick. Nice work. Compelling discussions as well.
I would like to get your - or anyone's - thoughts about setting the size of input fields. While it is not addressed specifically in your article, I think it has relevance given that we are attempting to make forms "prettier" and more "accessible".
My question concerns setting the input size to be the same length in all cases (except for input types "radio" and "checkbox"). I grant that - when all the same size - the inputs do make a prettier form. Your form does this, and it indeed looks great. Yet, what about considering the input in relation to the data it expects - and adjusting the input's size attribute accordingly?
A specific example is an input for Zip Code for a US address. I feel it presents a usability issue to the user when the width of a Zip input is as long as the input for Street or City. A US Zip is necessarily shorter and it makes sense - and is fair to the user - to indicate that visually, even at the expense of creating a "jagged right line" of inputs on the form. Thoughts?
This may be a bit off-topic, but what is so wrong with tables? Why is a table in a form such a "semantic faux pas?" I could draw up that form in a fraction of the time, and do it using less bytes if I use tables. All I hear now-a-days is how horrible it is to use a table. Why use a simple table when you can create a huge stylesheet file and mess with divs that never show up correctly in all browsers?
Back on topic, nice example though.
Back off topic, I can feel the heat from the flames already.
bq. Yet, what about considering the input in relation to the data it expects — and adjusting the input's size attribute accordingly?
That is sometimes appropriate, but in many cases you won't know the length of the input. If you're asking for name, or town, or email address, you have no idea how long it's likely to be - so set a size that will be big enough for most people and others can scroll if they have to.
bq. A specific example is an input for Zip Code for a US address. A US Zip is necessarily shorter and it makes sense — and is fair to the user — to indicate that visually, even at the expense of creating a "jagged right line"? of inputs on the form.
I know this is slightly off your point, but consider the possibility that people from other countries will be entering their address in your form - might it be better to have a textbox so they can enter the address in whatever format is most appropriate rather than be constrained by one that is designed specifically for US addresses?
In answer to your question, I think it would look fine either way, whether the postcode box is the right size for the input, or lined up with the other fields. Part of it will depend on the rest of your form, and how many fields there are of the standard length.
In the case of input fields with an expected specific length there is only one way to have the length of the field match the length of the data across browser-platform combinations:
# do not use CSS to set a width
# set the attributes _maxlength_ and _size_ to be equal
# set the font-family to a monospace font
I have experimented with this and it was the only way, for example with a five-digit zip, to guarantee that the data input exactly matches the length of the input element. This was tested with Opera, IE (from 5 to 7 on Mac and Windows), Firefox, Safari and Netscape 6.
Excuse the atrocious spelling errors in my previous post. I haven't had my coffee yet.
[Ref comments 48, 50, 51, 52]
As I was reading your last comment (#52) it dawned on me where the problem lies, and likely explains the similar reports you have had regarding Flock and FF on Linux.
In your example, you are not explicitly setting the width of text input and textarea elements in the CSS, but instead leaving it to the "default" size, or, in the case of the textarea, using the cols attribute in the textarea tag to set cols="25". If not explicitly set by CSS, the width of such elements will be affected in Firefox and other browsers by the user's settings for default font and font size. It appears that my (and other people's) default settings are larger than yours, hence the observed differences.
We have no way of knowing a user's browser settings, so it is risky either to leave the field widths unspecified, or to use the size/cols attributes in the HTML tags. To be safe (well, as safe as we ever can be, in this game) we need to set widths in the CSS to make sure labels and inputs don't bump into each other, or knock each other out of the way.
Of course, every individual form will demand its own styling, _including input and textarea field widths_—but maybe that needs to be made clear.
I hope this is helpful.
Thanks to *Christian Tietze* in comment #3 for linking to my _Awesome Form_. I just wanted to note that I've updated "Awesome Form":http://paularmstrongdesigns.com/examples/css/awesome-form.html
Awesome Form is complete cross-browser compatible CSS for displaying forms using only its most bare elements. No lists, no tables, no guff. I hope others find it useful!
I appreciate that the article you wrote does allow developers to create accessible forms, however the need for Javascript seems to be crazy in my opinion. Although the Javascript is unobtrusive, it still creates more work for the developer. It is possible to create the same form using

&
 tags for Markup and only CSS to style it. It's still very accessible, has more semantic meaning and no need for Javascript. What would happen if the user had Javascript turned off? Answer: It would no longer be a "Prettier Accessible Form". I really don't want to sound like I'm moaning, as it is a step in the right direction, but I urge you all to check out Dan Cederholm's technique for forms.
Firstly let me say that I enjoyed seeing a form layout that took a stab at semantics and didn't use floats, which have been plagued me quite a few times in designing over the years. There's certainly no God-sent CSS template that addresses the form (and there may never be), but please keep exploring these new ideas as they're always welcomed and enriching.
In trying variations on this CSS, I discovered that if you set _text-align: right;_ on the
 and use _padding-right_ to shift the inputs/labels to your liking, then you can obviate the need for js/proprietary tags. This also minimizes the need for CSS hacks. Granted, you have to be willing to deal with right-aligned label text, but the result is very clean/crisp. Here's a very short "example":http://www.geocities.com/pgates18/Content3.htm for your perusal.
Of course, as often occurs in the Web Design world, solving one problem reveals at least one new problem. Inputs and TextAreas can generally be made to render equally across many browsers. The select element misbehaves in this regard, however (I've only tested in IE6, FF1.5, Op8.54/9). Opera is the only one of the three browsers I've tested (assuming the widths are equal in the CSS) that naturally renders the select the same width as the other form elements. IE and FF both render 2px shorter in the case of my experiment.
Maybe I didn't solve anything—just trying to follow the tradition of sharing ideas!
I just posted another alternative solution "on my website":http://bajooter.com/node/22 that may be viable. It uses the method mentioned on "Quirksmode":http://www.quirksmode.org/css/forms.html plus there isn't any javascript and only I only used one hack.
Thanks for the great article!
@ Kevin
I personally find forms with equal-length fields to be pretty, but not very usable. To me, different sized fields act much the same way as whitespace in a passage of text allowing me to more easily keep my fix on whatever I should be concentrating on. Another example is the alternating colors of a check register. By providing varying visual data. Generally, I will try to change the field size after 4-5 lines.
I also agree that the size of the field gives a hint on what it's meant to be which means you don't have to read all of the labels as intently. For instance, If you see the pattern:
It's pretty obvious that the last two fields are State & Zip
@ Kevin
I personally find forms with equal-length fields to be pretty, but not very usable. To me, different sized fields act much the same way as whitespace in a passage of text allowing me to more easily keep my fix on whatever I should be concentrating on. Another example is the alternating colors of a check register. By providing varying visual data. Generally, I will try to change the field size after 4-5 lines.
I also agree that the size of the field gives a hint on what it's meant to be which means you don't have to read all of the labels as intently. For instance, If you see the pattern:
It's pretty obvious that the last two fields are State & Zip
It's my first time posting here.
Looks like my fields turned into HRs also. Here's what I meant (i hope):
Shoot. Should have mentioned that I'm really digging the use of lists.
Think beyond address forms, people—ordered or unordered lists are perfect for things like questionaire's or any extensive forms. This little _approaches_ being what prototype.js is for js, for css. Obviously, compliancy is an issue but in the current world of CSS compliance, it almost always is anyway.
I echo many people's feelings here, as soon as I saw the JS to 'fix the layout', it was never going to be a popular solution. The idea isn't to bloat the code and slow down browsing running functions.
Stick with the floats or use tables for the forms. I've noticed no problems with the form on my site using floats, which has been checked on many browsers Four Shapes contact form. However, that form isn't too complicated.
Your form is nicely designed, but I don't think it will be used too often.
Someone once demonstrated to me what a screenreader actually does when presented with a list element. It spoke at length about the list item at each element, before describing the contents.
No further demonstration/explanation was necessary, and since then I've refrained from using lists inappropriately for nav menus (when div/span sets will do*) and never inside forms.
*div/span groups will straight swap in CSS (with less default style removal) and can also work better on unstyled (mobile?) pages.
I like the use of -moz-inline-block; I dislike all the javascript. That's alot of work to fix what in all liklihood is a non-issue.
I do apologise in advance because I'm normally very open-minded and listen to many different sides of a discussion, but in rare occassions like this one I get really annoyed.
In a nutshell: will all you standards-Nazis get over yourselves!
Where ANYWHERE in this articles does it say "this process is 100% reliant on JS and CSS and it'll all break and look rubbish without it - to hell with standards!!".
I'd strongly suggest you go back and read it again - this process works perfectly well without JS. The only reason JS is in there is to fix the continuing rift between CSS implementations in browsers - and here I was thinking 1997 was almost 10 years ago.
So instead of ranting and raving about how using JS to style is the work of Satan (and the process doesn't style through JS the code simply fixes browser errors) why not focus that energy into bullying the browser manufacturers to get their act together and implement the established, 1,000 year old specs completely and accurately.
Only THEN when we have 100% of browsers 100% compliant can you all go off and complain about hacks, fixes and workarounds if a process or piece of code deviates from standards.
But of course this is never going to happen because new technologies are invented and maturing all the time.
Sheesh if you don't like it, don't use it!
Personally I'm going to rectify the erratic behaviour of long labels but making sure I don't actually have any, but I'm not going to jump down the author's throat just because he's said "I'm going to fix omissions in a browser through script".
I was fascinated by the article and tried to implement all into a current project and it all worked well… except in the new Opera 9.
The word "null" is inserted before all label contents.
I am not a DOM-specialist, so there isn't much that I can say or do about it…
What does: this[removed] = null; in the script really do?
The same behaviour with the example form of the article.
"null" before each label element.
Forgive me if this has been discussed earlier in the threads…
I've seen a host of single column form solutions but they all service very small forms. What if you have a large amount of fields that need to be collected? Are there any two column css form solutions?
By the way…now that form behavior is being completely rewrittren by Ajax and other dynamic technologies, don't we need a new set of rules for styling them? For instance, we'll need the styles for error and confirm messages that appear within the form.
Here's an example Ajax powered newsletter signup form.
I normally leave my forms pretty plain - I'm hooked on pretty forms now! Thanks.
Never assume your audience has a white background on thier browser. I've got old-school grey, and it looks terrible!
As an aside, anyone else having trouble typing in this box, or is my keyboard suddenly broken?
Can someone explain how the stretched gradient is acheived please? I've tried copying the background: url(....) CSS but I just get the 1x2 pixel image repeated across the bottom of my fieldsets. I can't figure out how to stretch the image to 100% of the height of the fieldset.
Well, "David":http://www.alistapart.com/comments/prettyaccessibleforms?page=9#86, why don't you look at the CSS source, copy the image URL and view the image?
> !http://www.alistapart.com/d/prettyaccessibleforms/example_3/assets/images/cmxform-fieldset.gif!
It's a high gradient image. No CSS magic, just images.
Oops - my mistake. I missed the inclusion of the larger image completely.
Maybe this was not the point of the article, but if word "Accessible" is used in the title, I can't understand why clicking the labels of the radio buttons doesn't (isn't designed to) work!? For me, connecting labels with input fields using FOR and ID attributes is a must. Unfortunately not all the web designers use this rule - see checkbox under the "Search ALA" input ;) Laziness? Unawarness?
I really like the way it displays in Firefox but I have to say that using JavaScript for the form makes it not quite accessible in my books. I like the architecture of the form as far as the code but using JavaScript just made me go "ugh!"?. Why are tables so bad when using forms? I think forms is a good use to put a good old table"¦
I'm intrigued by the fuss Nick has caused by using an ordered list, because I've seen them being used to structure forms for years. Almost all the paper forms I need to fill in for my government, my university or my workplace—in fact, even surveys—have been represented as an ordered list of fields. This structure is especially useful because it is allows one to instruct the reader to "skip" a range of fields if they are not required.
Given that it is an established standard, how precisely is this not legitimate? The only convincing argument I can see for _not_ using them is presented by Pid Ster, who explains that the form becomes less accessible for screen readers; and then, the impractical purist in me cries that this is surely a fault of the software, not the structure. (Incidentally, can any more experienced readers tell me if this is the case for all speech readers?)
Definition lists I find particularly challenging, mainly because I'm not totally sure about their semantic intent. What is a definition list meant to imply? Is it really legitimate to use them merely for association? Aren't labels and fieldsets sufficient—for forms, at least? In fact, isn't that their explicit purpose? Tables, in my opinion, are preferable for data presentation, not data entry. I know that they often mean less markup, less complex CSS and less cross-browser hassle, but (in my opinion) they are also less semantically appropriate.
Not that I consider definition lists or even tables to be a complete semantic _faux pas_, but they don't immediately strike me as the best structures.
As for using ECMAscript to amend browser CSS support: the form degrades gracefully and is reasonably attractive without the fix, which itself is relatively unobtrusive. Admittedly, a perfectly workable solution could be created using floats, but the author's stated aim was to develop a solution which could be "dropped" into place, and float-based layouts are often very brittle (an issue I've experienced first-hand).
I mainly use paragraphs to markup forms, and in future I may well use a few lists. Excellent work, Nick!
Thanks Nick, I appreciate there is no magic solution to this problem. Personally, using the javascript or ol element doesn't grieve me as much as others here, and I still think this is better than tables.
I'm only mentioning this because nobody else has brought it up - but using the external library is a bit of a worry - it's 10kb of extra data that needs to be downloaded. I'm sure the library does all kinds of good stuff, but only if you use it.
I'm struggling to keep my pages looking good, functional, and less than 100kb before compression, so an extra 10kb for the form is a bit expensive.
Is there a way you can extract what you need into a standalone piece of script? I''m sure you could achieve what you need with a page or so of script, rather than requiring the library with all it's other features.
How can anyone argue against that a form is a list of questions and answers? US residents: have you never filled out a tax form, or a DMV form, or any other kind of form? Even your W2's are numbered!
I number fields for everything. It makes support calls so much easier, too. "I don't understand question 6." I'm glad to see other developers starting to do the same. DL/DT/DD lists are good, too. As a website that supports a large number of impaired users, we get many compliments over our use of numbered lists.
The earlier solution linked ( "Paul Armstrong":http://paularmstrongdesigns.com/examples/css/awesome-form.html ) is far worse IMO than this form setup. You think using a list is bad form? What about changing the logical order of elements so they float correctly? Paul makes it so you have to list the checkbox first and then the label. Blind users will really enjoy _that_.
I have a feeling most people that are against the JS didn't even look at the example with JS disabled in Mozilla—it may look a little "off" but it is still usable.
I am excited to see your use of ol to mark up form items. I think this markup is just right. I actually disagree strongly with the use of tables and definition lists to mark up form controls.
The semantic realationship between the text and its input exists already, it is created by the label tag and the input tag (with appropriate attributes, of course). I think your use of OL is perfect for establishing the semantic relationship between the different input/label couples which compose the form.
I had previously used a more minimal markup :
<input>text text text
The problems with my method were : 1. inverted order of text and input, and 2. with CSS turned off the form was still technically useable but turned into a soup of form controls and text.
Javascript for layout makes me very hesitant… I don't like the idea that it might be used to shortcut actual thoughtful CSS development. On the other hand I've inherited *divML* projects, where more than 40 divs were used to create three boxes of equal height in a row.
When one has tried to do CMS development on a bloated project like that it starts to be easier to see the value of using Javascript to add extras that aren't necessary for the page to function especially when it means we can keep the markup clean.
Excellent article Nick, thanks for taking the time to write up your method.
My only concern about relying on JS workarounds for style is unforeseen collisions with Prototype or Script.aculo.us (or any other Ajax library). Have you tested this method with Rails form helpers, or other server-side solutions that dynamically generate forms and form interactions?
Not busting your chops, just asking. This article helped me see forms in a new light.
I'm having a different problem using this on my own page with firefox, but it doesn't affect the examples. I did try not including any of my normal styles (using just the example instead). Basically firefox ignores the width's for the labels and the form itself. Anyone know why?
Hi all,
I'm trying to apply Nick's great example into a current website ... and got a really good looking/working EDITABLE form cross-browser ...
What happens when you're not editing and want to VIEW THE FORM later?
Currently using label and input css markup is cool ... but nothing's available for the text later when viewing only.
What do people propose to that? The DL/DT solution would solve that ... but I wouldn't mind getting Nick's solution working!
the snag is ... you can't do them with the current css :-(
I realise now why Nick's demo shows all radio and checkboxes on single lines in their own fieldsets - I've just tried doing multi-column radio/checkboxes and sure enough, the
breaks the line and wraps to the start of the next line, under the label left-aligned :-(
Any ideas anyone?
I am very much anti-JavaScript, but face it, it's use here is unimportant towards accessibility, nohng breaks if it is turned off.
I did live in Germany till recently, my wife is German and all my three girls are Half German. I do not appreciate Ross Clutterbuck's comment (78) about "Standards-Nazis". It is very inapropriate when "Zealots" or "Crusaders" would have worked nicely. It is time to get over yourself, the war ended 50 years ago and not even my wifes parents and kids grandparents were involved in it.
My one important input here is less JavaScript as the use of innerHTML as mentioned in comment 26. Best of my knowledge innerHTML is not supported by XHTML when correctly served as XML, only if served as Tag Soup. Hence this would not work in my personal sites. So any XHTML conscious designers should keep that in mind when using application/Xhtml+xml MimeType.
@ Eric Brown and further readers:
"The earlier solution linked ( Paul Armstrong ) is far worse IMO than this form setup. You think using a list is bad form? What about changing the logical order of elements so they float correctly? Paul makes it so you have to list the checkbox first and then the label. Blind users will really enjoy that."
Yes they will! Checkboxes and Radio bottons are supposed to have the label after them. Anything else will confuse the issue. "Better Accessible Forms":http://accessify.com/features/tutorials/accessible-forms/ at Accessify.com
@ Eric Brown and further readers:
"The earlier solution linked ( Paul Armstrong ) is far worse IMO than this form setup. You think using a list is bad form? What about changing the logical order of elements so they float correctly? Paul makes it so you have to list the checkbox first and then the label. Blind users will really enjoy that."
Yes they will! Checkboxes and Radio bottons are supposed to have the label after them. Anything else will confuse the issue. "Better Accessible Forms":http://accessify.com/features/tutorials/accessible-forms/ at Accessify.com
Hello. Opera 9.01 is inserting 'Null' in front of the label values for me, with the intended label then dropping down a line. Anyone got a fix for that?
I was sure I didn't already read an answer to my question on Opera 9.01 and Null, but it's there on page 3.
I know I'm awfully late to the party, but I was wondering about the statement in the article that, "forms don't constitute tabular data."
I've heard other people say this, and I really don't get why. Especially given the concept of label/data pairs. In fact, I would suspect that when most forms are submitted to a database the data is submitted in a near identical format (e.g. The first column being an identifying label, and the next column being the data (although, I still think it would be semantic, even if the order was reversed… just kind of whacky in L to R reading languages)).
I'm wondering if I'm missing something.
I dont have anything to add to the discussion. I just wanna say that the idea of using lists for structuring is very…ummm…unique.
I won't argue about semantics or anything. coz as long as it works, it's totally fine by me :D
Here is a poor attempt at re-implementing this using Prototype.js since JQuery clashes. This requires that the form has an id="cmxform", I'm sure people out there that actually know what they're doing could improve upon this.
if( document.addEventListener ) document.addEventListener( 'DOMContentLoaded', cmxform, false ); function cmxform(){ // Hide forms $( 'cmxform' ).hide(); // Processing var someNodeList = $('cmxform').getElementsByTagName('label'); var nodes = $A(someNodeList); nodes.each( function( i ){ var labelContent = i[removed]; var labelWidth = document.defaultView.getComputedStyle( i, '' ).getPropertyValue( 'width' ); var labelSpan = document.createElement( 'span' ); labelSpan.style.display = 'block'; labelSpan.style.width = labelWidth; labelSpan[removed] = labelContent; i.style.display = '-moz-inline-box'; i[removed] = null; i.appendChild( labelSpan ); } ); //.end(); // Show forms $( 'cmxform' ).show(); }
Someone above was asking about a tableless two column css layout.
Working for a non-profit which serves the disabled, this article was my original inspiration for developing the above.
I eventually found the use of fieldsets preferrable to unordered lists because of the extra junk that comes with them in screen-readers. Besides, they make natural large containers, I wish I had discovered them years ago.
This article is right-on in promoting the use of labels, which I now use religiously. I simply happen to like the div/span approach.
Someone above was asking about a
"tableless two column css layout":http://www.yeago.net/work/2006/09/two-column-css-layout.html
Working for a non-profit which serves the disabled, this article was my original inspiration for developing the above.
I eventually found the use of fieldsets preferrable to unordered lists because of the extra junk that comes with them in screen-readers. Besides, they make natural large containers, I wish I had discovered them years ago.
This article is right-on in promoting the use of labels, which I now use religiously. I simply happen to like the div/span approach.
ps: severe apologies for the double-post. forgot to Textile.
Let me first say that this article has become a great resource for me and has changed the way I think about and create forms. But I've found a problem that I'm surprised that no one has mentioned here. I'm developing on a Mac, and everything looks perfect on Safari! But in the rest of the browsers I've seen, there are inconsitencies. I've done a little modification to the CSS for my own purposes, naturally, and set the label width to 33%, as I'm using them in some varying CSS column layouts and this causes the labels to collapse so that the inputs are right along the right side of them. This happens everywhere bu Mac Safari and MSIE. The only other inconsistency is that MSIE seems to give a left margin to fieldsets. I set up my Submit button like so:
<input type='submit' value='Submit' />
So that it would line up with my checkboxes and other inputs, but it shift a good inch to the right. Any ideas on how to fix this situation?
As a comment to the 2 column tableless design remark;
you can now validate your tableless design at: http://w3tableless.com
check if you've done it the right way.
Both on IE 6 and Firefox on Win2k, when a legend has more than 1 line, it's not broke but continues on a single line.
It's at the exact position of "Is this address also your invoice address ?" but longer.
Even if I force the width property of the legend, it's not working, evenwith " !important".
If you have any idea "¦
Firstly, I think this article does provide a nice insight and a perfectly valid method for form layouts. I think whilst the use of Javascript to fix style hacks is far from ideal, it is a solution which should work for the vast majority of people and thus is not a big usability issue. The downside is simply the untidiness of having extra "˜hack fix' code.
I would, personally, disagree with your assertion that it is wrong to represent form data in a tabular form. I believe that it is perfectly acceptable to represent any data however you like providing the semantics are easy to understand, mathematically solid, and do not contravene existing standards unless there is a specific reason for doing so. In the case of forms, I would say that it's as easy to understand the semantics of a table form layout vs. a list based layout. Because there aren't any fixed standards in place for form semantics I can't see why using tables can be considered a poorer solution to using lists.
For most situations you can classify a form as a set of related fields with undefined size, and classify a field as a typical (key, value) pair. To give an example, taking the first three, fields of your form (Name, Address, City) using set notation you could mathematically represent a typical record of data as ((Name, "˜Homer Simpson'), (Address, "˜742 Evergreen Terrace'), (City, "˜Springfield')). As the set contains pair based items only, you can consider a 2-column table where the first column represents the head of the pairs and the second represents the tail of the pairs. Clearly, it is a direct mapping between two representations and the related XHTML code would be pretty self explanatory.
I think there is a certain hesitation to use tables in the designer world for fear of being ridiculed for being out-of-touch. I think in this case a table solution would be perfectly understandable and increase the clarity of the page's stylesheet.
The alternative javascript (in comment #106) for use with Prototype.js only works with one form on the page and with it's ID being 'cmxform', not the class. This alternative works pretty much the same as the original script, only using prototype.js instead of jquery.
function cmxform(){
// Hide forms
// Processing
$$('form.cmxform li label').each( function( label ){
if (label.classNames() != 'nocmx') {
var labelContent = label[removed];
var labelWidth = document.defaultView.getComputedStyle( label, '' ).getPropertyValue( 'width' );
var labelSpan = document.createElement( 'span' );
labelSpan.style.display = 'block';
labelSpan.style.width = labelWidth;
labelSpan[removed] = labelContent;
label.style.display = '-moz-inline-box';
label[removed] = '' ;
label.appendChild( labelSpan );
} ) ;
// Show forms
if( document.addEventListener ) document.addEventListener( 'DOMContentLoaded', cmxform, false );
Why are submit buttons never included in fieldsets?
Since submit buttons can have meaning themselves, it would seem appropriate to me. I've never understood this.
bin gerade duch zufall auf den Artikel gestosen, finde den Artikel echt toll, hat mir sehr weiter geholfen.
I checked the CSS and it doesnt validate.
"See for yourself":http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.alistapart.com/d/prettyaccessibleforms/example_3/assets/css/_library/cmxform.css&usermedium=all
Just something to keep in mind if you plan to do this.
I think overall it has a nice end result without using floats, but it's sort of a toss up between floats and javascript.
i like the approach and want to try it in my next applications. especially the way that you use a list to define the form rows. interesting. need to check how you managed the gradient.. looks nice ;)
you can pass by my blog http://webdevbros.grafix.at i am sure its interesting for you.

Nice article Nick, one of the best examples I've seen.
I've been looking for a good css alternative to table based forms for a while now. I found this article along with a few other articles, all with different implementations. However, the majority of them used div, span, lists, p, br etc, which personally I don't think is semantically correct. Javascript/css combinations like Nick's seem to be a favourite too, which I'm not a fan of, sorry.
Most of the examples I've seen don't validate to XHTML 1.0 Strict, and fall apart in different browsers. They also didn't cater for radio buttons, check boxes etc, so I'm glad to see Nick's article includes these.
ANYWAYS, as nothing else I have seen suited me I've been working on my own tableless form which covers all the points above and seems pretty bulletproof:
Tested and working in Windows: IE 5, IE 5.5, IE 6, IE 7, FF 1, FF 2, Netscape 6*, Netscape 7*, Netscape 8, Opera 5**, Opera 6**, Opera 7, Opera 8, Opera 9
Having read the previous posts, this is a different solution that might suit some of you better. Thought I'd share it and see what you think:

I used your above tutorial, but my the list is messing with my page background (only on PCs though). Here's the link:
Please I need help!


text:
Discussion in 'December 2008' started by Dlev59, Dec 14, 2008.
I'm telling the truth.I can upload the game tomorrow and we will see who tells the truth.
You owe Dre an apology.
Small ball did not work too well. Minus for the game against perhaps the worst team in the league. Fortunately, Curry played the 2nd and 4th quarters (and the last two minutes of the 1st quarter) using a normal rotation. I believe we were minus 4 using small ball, plus 20 using a regular, NBA type, rotation. What a contrast. Jason Maxiell, although of course this is no real competition for him, shined greatly in the game, just being too strong, too quick, for the Washington bigs. He basically pushed them around at will. Stuckey was brilliant, his 2nd double double recently. This was about 18 points, 11 assists. He'd get inside, draw defenders, and make a nice pass for an assist. Not just passing to an open shooter, but creating shots. And when he was not passing the ball, he was driving in and scoring or just knocking down a jumper. They left him open for a three again, and Stuckey buried it again. That is getting to be way passed the fluke point. Stuckey can shoot the 3, with confidence, if you leave him unguarded. And shorter in? He can hit those off the dribble. AI was, well, AI. Yes, he looked for an assist now and then, but mostly, he was just burning their defense with his speed. The game often looked liked his personal layup drill. And he was canning outside shots too. I see some are complaining about Sheed's play. Well, Amir is not starting along side him, so Sheed had to hustle down the court on transition D. Very wearing on him. Something it does us no good to make him do. We ended the game with Rip on the bench. Mind you, Rip was connecting on his shots, but AI and Stuckey were routinely getting the ball right to the rack. Good choice to leave AI and Stuckey in. Who knows just good it is to take an inside shot like that? Raise your hands. Yes, if we miss, we got rebounders at the basket. If they manage to get the rebound, they are taking the ball from under their basket. Your guards penetrating is a beautiful thing indeed. Maxiell was doing great, he really should have been let to finish the game. But hey, compared to small ball, I'll take old man Sheed and old man Dyess in a heartbeat. They are slow, but tough interior defenders. Shortly halfway thru the 1st quarter, Jamison jammed his thumb, and that effected his game quite a bit. Still, again, we could not play better than Washington, even with one of their best scorers playing with an injury. Not with small ball. Afflalo did not play a whole lot. More in the first half though vs. the 2nd. Good D, made a shot. Dyess did little besides playing some tough D. No Bynum. No Amir. No Kwame. No Herrmann. AI played way too much. By far our worst stretch was with Dyess in the game instead of Sheed, with us still playing small ball, late in the 3rd quarter. That was indeed quite ugly. Our rotation: AI, Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Afflalo, Sheed, Dyess, JMAX. An 8 man rotation. With AI playing way, way, too much. A simple solution. Bring AI out of the game just a bit sooner, bring Amir in as the first sub, giving us a unit of: Stuckey, Rip, Tay, Amir, and Sheed, for the last five minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters. This would get AI's minutes down to 38, let Amir play 10 minutes. And we would be using a solid 9 man rotation. So hey, as much as I hate small ball, this rotation does not need that much fixing. Just play Amir, and play AI less. And small ball no more than 14 minutes per game, tops.
I don't apology for telling the truth.If someone has to apology he is LA Dre... I don't want to make this thread out of it's direction. Great win for Pistons.The Answer and Stuck played well.Great offensive harmony in the 4th...Lookin' to Utah game. @Lee I agree with u completely except one.AI played normal Tay played a little bit more than it should be.Playing 45 mins for tay a little bit more but that's OK.For AI playing 42 mins is normal even a little bit less.
Well whatever the case may be you shouldnt disrespect people on the fourm by callling them liars. I guarantee you wouldn't like it if I commented on on things you allegedly have done. Get my point.
Stuck has 3 double doubles in 4 games as a starter. The other game he had 21pts, 8 assists. Very impressive. Overall since he became starter: 15.5ppg (62.1% FG, 66.6% 3FG), 10 assists.
Tay's not AI. He gets tired, and then becomes sucky. Every year we go through this w/ no back-up SF or an SF the coaches like enough to play. AI is like a freak of nature. He's the exception not the rule.
@explosivity I'm open to all comments.You can call me a liar if you have proof.Since joining this forum all my messages refer to statistical facts or game bands.Statistics can't be subjective unlike persons. When AI plays exactly like stuckey played tonight ( 6/12 fg 17 points 12 asists vs Indiana) you call him OK but when Stuckey plays like that you call him MVP.So i want you to ask question?Who's objective here.Me? - Just a blind AI fan to you - Or you? @lpgrl26 You can be right i think.You've watched him so much more than me so I should watch Tay until the playoffs to make a comment about this topic.But i think it this way for now..
Dude I cant even understand what you are saying especially the last part. Rephrase and then I'll respond, lmao.
Just let it go XP. Please.
I thought i put blank line after answering you explosivity. Also in that paragraph the word "You" was plural especially targeting Latinoking90 not you.In that paragraph i tried to explain AI also had statisctically same game vs Indiana stuckey had tonight.Now some people say Stuckey had a MVP performance game but the same people called Iverson OK vs Indiana.In this way i'm asking you (those people) the question?Who's objective?
I think the Stuckey praise is more about the stretch of games he has put together lately moreso than just this 1 individual performance.
Well, AI was brought here to cast his starpower, it should help to go through Cleveland and Boston, at least so Dumars planned.
Nice practice.
Before I get carried away complimenting our players for a beautiful 4th quarter showing, I have to preface it by saying that the Wiz looked horrendous. Very selfish bball from them with 13 assists and a ton of ballhog moves. Their center led the team in assists with 4. The fadeaway hook shot somebody forced was the coup de grace. Even though we were playing a weak opponent, it was great to see our guards shred them up in the 4th. What a sequence there with AI and Stuck driving at will and making smart passes when there was resistance. Very fun to watch because we finally got on a roll in the 4th quarter instead of crumbled. Also, the fastbreak pass by AI in the first half was money. And a very nice game by Dyess. Almost a double double in less than 30 minutes. Tack on 3 blocked shots, and you have a textbook game from the underrated big man. I gotta say that I like our finishing lineup a lot more than the starting lineup. I really think Rip is going to have to be the 6th man. He doesn't necessarily deserve it, but I can't see AI playing less than 38 per night. Playing bad teams is such a mood enhancer!
We give up size defensively( not that Rips a great defender) but AI can get his own shot anytime and can also dish it out. As much as I think it would drive Rip outta town? He would make the Starting unit steady with inserting a big( Amir, Kwame) and then we get Rip, AA, Dyess, Max, etc off the bench. He would still get his 30 + mins a game cause then we could use him to prevent Tay from constantly hovering around the 40+ mark.
permax, you are takings to literally here. I saw the whole game with the exception of switching off for a couple of minutes to watch the Celtics/Hawks and Clippers/Bulls. I watched it here in living color on my HDTV and not only did I see AI go right through or around the defense at least 3 times for a mini finger roll or floating layup, Greg Kelser even commented on it during the game in his color commentary. It was just an afterthought dude to say he was open more than usual and I was just quoting something that the announcers were referring to that I also noticed during the game.. Sure he was double teamed a few times, but in this game more so than others, he was able to get to the hoop a couple of times with ease and show why he is a crowd favorite & future HOF'er and that is no lie.....Now the game will be replayed tonight on Foxsports Detroit at midnite my time, but I probably won't go back to watch it verify my point...as I am done with this segment and ready to move on friend. In this forum we just let everyone speak their minds on behalf of the Pistons whether it is negative or positive as long as it is not about each other.
The coolest thing about tonight was when the Wiz got to within 1, watching Rodney Stuckey. Much like his predecessor he doesn't shy away from the moment. It was really fun to see us get Pts in the paint down the stretch with the Kid running the show, I really think the Matrix is slowing down for him now, he no longer has to dodge bullets........ RED FLAG: Rasheed Wallace. Had a typical LAZY-SOB game. It is impossible for me to describe how much Dyess was missed. Sheed is not focused enough, mature enough, or professional enough to anchor that front line by himself, SHEED more than anybody missed Antonio McDyess. Dyess brings sorely missed maturity and professionalism that was obviously and completely gone in his absence.
Really glad AI didn't tear a ligament on that one play. The way he grabbed his knee and the way that there didn't look like contact on the replay made it seem like it was an internal pop or something. Pretty interesting how they played the clip of him talking with the ref about it. "Take a look at the replay at halftime. You may be right, but take a look at it, he stuck his out into me." Pretty respectful way to disagree with a ref. Sheed can take notes. That's a good way to put it. He's getting more poise... except for the first play of the game when he scooby-doo'ed. He was out of control earlier in the season and he went on tilt a few times out of frustration. Now, he's not driving into brick walls and making more subtle passes. Need him to play like this against a real defense to verify.
I like the fact you are emphasizing just how bad Washington is. That much more ammo against small ball, which could not compete with the Washington team. Small ball was minus 4 in this game.
Separate names with a comma.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
United Grinding Celebrates 30 Years in Virginia Location
United Grinding recently celebrated 30 years in its Fredericksburg, Virginia location with a ribbon-cutting event opening a newly expanded and renovated facility.
Serving this small customer actually places greater demands on the equipment provider's facility. The expansion in Fredericksburg is a response to these special demands. For example, tool grinding customers are less likely to request on-site training, because they often lack the space for this. A new 7,500-square-foot showroom and demonstration area in Virginia will provide ample space for training. Another requirement for all of United Grinding's customers—but for the small tool grinding customers in particular—is for machine service needs to be addressed before they significantly affect uptime. A tool grinding company might lose a valuable contract if it unexpectedly loses the capacity to fill a time-sensitive order. Accordingly, the Virginia site has been expanded to make room for the larger staffing level appropriate to the growing customer base that this location is serving. Finding, hiring and equipping this additional staff is the task to which United Grinding is turning its attention now.
United Grinding's Paul Ehrlich describes the Walter Helitronic Micro CNC tool grinder to a group of attendees to the company event.
One of the attendees to the event was Congressman Rob Wittman of Virginia. Application engineer Robby Faulkner describes knee implants machined on the Walter equipment.


text:
All-American band endorses all-American brand
BRISTOL, Tenn. - So what is the best dressed old time string band wearing this year? Pretty much what they've always worn, bibbed overalls.
And chances are they're wearing overalls made in Bristol, Tennessee.
As proof of that, the Tennessee Mafia Jug Band from Goodlettsville, Tennessee stopped by the factory at lunchtime for a special concert, because they're now endorsing the American-made Pointer Brand jeans.
There was a time when it was a rare sight and sound to see and hear a band in the old L.C. King factory in downtown Bristol, but not anymore.
A special concert provided by the Tennessee Mafia Jug Band was held during lunch on Thursday. They're a group of friends and long-time musicians who love to make the old sounds and provide their audiences with some down-home fun.
The old time string bands are really hot right now. "People seemed to be starved for it. Entertainment, not so much the music, they just want entertainment," the band says. But there's no doubt that the music is far above excellent.
The band visited the home of Pointer Brand jeans and overalls for a special purpose. They, like other bands, are endorsing this all-American product made in downtown Bristol. "These buttons here, I've never had them pull out and I have on other brands. Hey, if they're not going to pull on me they're not going to pull on you," one of the band members joked.
All joking aside, they're proud to let people know what they're wearing on stage. "I like that little dog on there," a member said, noting the Pointer label. "The main thing we like about them, they're made in the United States, even better in Tennessee."
For the employees just seeing the band wearing their products made them proud. "When the band played, they had the bibbed overalls on. We're looking at them you know like, 'hey, we made those.' It really makes us feel good to have somebody come in here and see what we do," long-time employee Vickie Wilson said.
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Welcome to Viñales Valley, in Pinar del RĂo, Cuba, designated Cultural and World Heritage Site by UNESCO, and a magnificent landscape where its unparallel nature is perfectly combined with environmental protection and human action. Come with us to Viñales & others 35 destinations in Cuba, knowing Cuba & the Cubans.
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Beyonce of Destiny's Child during Destiny's Child Perform Live at HMV at Oxford Street in London, Great Britain on June 28, 1998. (Photo by Fred Duval/FilmMagic)
Destiny's Child, nominated for Best Group, at the Soul Train awards on September 3, 1998 in Los Angeles, Ca. (Getty)
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Beyonce Knowles poses with her new womens fragrance True Star at the Macy's in Herald Square in New York City, New York on October 22, 2004. (Photo by Brad Barket/Getty Images)
Beyonce during 'Dreamgirls' – Paris Premiere – Red Carpet Arrivals at Olympia Theatre in Paris, France. (Photo by Tony Barson/WireImage)
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text: How soon after an egg is laid do they cap the cell? Reason I ask is ...I split a hive on March 16th and let them raise their own queen. ...I realize the queen should probably be on or done with her mating flights...and laying. I have a hard time seeing the eggs but was wondering when I should see capped brood.


text:
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text:
Every cast tells two stories.
One ancient. One modern.
Admission is free.
Mon-Fri: 10am-5pm
Sat: 10am-1pm (Univ. term-time only)
Sun: Closed
Closed on Bank Holidays
We are currently open on Saturdays.
Easter Term Saturday Openings begin on Saturday 29th April and end on Saturday 10th June 2017.
*We will be closed on Monday 29th May for the Bank Holiday*
Museum of Classical Archaeology
Faculty of Classics
Sidgwick Avenue
We do not have an entrance on the road. Find us inside the Sidgwick Site.
Tel. +44 (0)1223 330402
Email email@example.com
All images and material on our websites are ©Museum of Classical Archaeology, University of Cambridge unless otherwise stated. Permission is required to reproduce our images.
See also our Copyright Notice and Take Down Policy.


text:
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text:
Hi Y'all, Week 15 is upon us and now's the time for all of you to show me some of your "Lovelies". I don't have mine done for this week as my knee is acting up and it hurts too much to sew...so let the show begin!!!!
Welcome to the Quilting Board!
Hi Y'all, Week 15 is upon us and now's the time for all of you to show me some of your "Lovelies". I don't have mine done for this week as my knee is acting up and it hurts too much to sew...so let the show begin!!!!
Sorry about that knee, Honchey. Hope you get some relief soon.
Honchey, I hope you will feel better very soon!
Janie, lovely blocks! Great fabric choices !
Here are mine.
Eat, quilt, sleep, repeat
Hope you get back to your sewing reallll soon Honchey.
Beautiful blocks everyone, here are mine for this week.
Yes, Honchey, I hope your knee gets better; I am back on Glucosamine, 1000 mg, over the counter medicine that Dr. Minter put me on to ease the joint discomfort in my knees. It sure helps me.
Ok , to try to post:
I did not yet finish Doe and Darts. I am hoping to get that one and Eastertide done by next week!
here is Elsies....
Candace is Deranged
so many babies.. sew little quilts
As always, beautiful work,Ladies!!
Honchey ... so sorry about your knee. Could you sew using your left foot for the pedal? I'd never tried that til recently when I read on a QB thread that many used left for "go", and right knee for lifting the presser foot. I was surprised how fast I adapted to it ... and how much more I am now using the auto-lift.
JanieW ... oh so perfect, from sedate to whimsey! Great contrasts for both.
Anael ... LIkewise, whimsey and sedate. Your pinkish mottled is interesting, some yellow peeking thru and almost seems like a tad of green, too.
MiraB ... just when I think you've shown us some great fabric pairings you come with another. D+D brown and blue is ever so nice. You've really outdone yourself with the FC floral and then the stripes in Elsie's!
QNSue ... Those Does look like they are on alert for Darts coming their way! Is DublB out a-huntin-and-a-shootin'? I'm hoping to join you with some deer in my D+D block too!
DDamsel ... So delicate looking!
Sew many ideas ... just sew little time!!
Does & Dart almost did me in but I perservered. My Elsie's Favorite is a little wonky. I'm singing the same tune--hope it can be quilted out.
Imagine all the people living life in peace...(John Lennon 1940-1980)
Oh JanRN ... those are stunning!!! And I can see why that is Elsie's Favourite!! Incredibly beautiful ... you couldn't have picked better fabrics!!
Sew many ideas ... just sew little time!!


text:
Keep reading to see more pictures I took using my Canon Rebel T2i .
|Ice Cream everyday!
|Found these toys on the beach.
|No cars on the island, just wagons and bikes. It's hard for the little ones to keep up. We cheered him on.
Go Toby! Go Toby!
|catching the sun


text:
Modern Studio in the Heart of Warsaw
Size40 m²
Floor No.2
- Kitchen
- Washer/dryer
- Suitable for events
- Family/child friendly
- Towels
- Internet/WiFi
- Baby cot
Accommodation summary
|Dzielna, 01-001 Warszawa, Poland
|Property type
|Property ID
|Acceptance rate
|Response time
|A few hours
|Calendar updated
House rulesCheck in is from 14.00 to 12.00 the following day. Quiet hours are from 22.00 to 6.00 am.
|Weekly rate for up to 2 guests
|Monthly rate for up to 2 guests
|Check-in after
|On arrangement
|Check-in before
|On arrangement
|Check-out before
|On arrangement
|Cancellation Policy
Reviews of this property
Our host has always responded quickly to our emails and there was no problem to enter the apartment when we arrived and no problems for departure. We would have liked still be greeted on arrival without having to call for someone to come open us. Our taxi did very kindly for us to find there was no one waiting for us. Of course we warned of our arrival time and we arrived on time.
We would have liked our host personally. Only a very young girl received us. She spoke no English and contact or question therefore revealed difficult. She finally had to call our host on the phone so we can talk with her.
We wanted a radiator because the weather promised to be colder.
Our host on the phone was promised within two hours. But it has not brought us. It held that it was not that cold. Finally we were able to do without the radiator, but we would have found more correct it reminds us to ask if everything was OK or that we say from the outset that we will bring if the climate requires it.
Gérard and Monique Feldman
Notre hôte a toujours répondu rapidement à nos courriels et il n'y a eu aucun problème pour entrer dans l'appartement lorsque nous sommes arrivés ni de problèmes pour le départ. Nous aurions aimé malgré tout être accueilli à l'arrivée sans avoir à téléphoner pour qu'on vienne nous ouvrir. Notre taxi l'a fait très aimablement pour nous en voyant qu'il n'y avait personne qui nous attendait. Bien entendu nous avions prévenu de notre heure d'arrivée et nous sommes arrivés à l'heure prévue.
Nous aurions aimé voir notre hôte personnellement. Seule une très jeune fille nous a reçus. Elle ne parlait pas anglais et tout contact ou question se révélaient donc difficile. Elle a finalement du appeler notre hôte au téléphone pour que nous puissions parler avec elle.
Nous souhaitions un radiateur car la météo s'annonçait plus froide.
Notre hôte au téléphone nous l'a promis dans les deux heures. Mais elle ne nous l'a pas apporté. Elle a jugé qu'il ne faisait pas si froid que ça. Finalement nous avons pu nous passer du radiateur, mais nous aurions trouvé plus correct qu'elle nous rappelle pour nous demander si tout allait bien ou qu'elle nous dise dès le départ qu'elle nous l'apportera si le climat le nécessite.
Gérard et Monique Feldman
nice cozy apartment, only the staircase is a bit run down and the house is located on a busy street. But I just felt very comfortable there. The owners were very nice and helpful.
schönes gemütliches Appartment, nur das Treppenhaus ist etwas runtergekommen und das Haus liegt an einer stark befahrenen Straße. Habe mich aber sehr wohl gefühlt dort. Die Besitzer waren sehr nett und hilfsbereit.
The apartment is very nice and comfortable and the owners friendly and helpful. E 'in a good location, 10 minutes walk from the Metro stop (Ratuz Arsenal) and can be easily found in the neighborhood grocery stores and more. In about 15 minutes you can walk to the Old Town (Stare Miasto). A short walk from the new museum of the history of Polish Jews ... not to be missed! Especially for those who are staying several days in Warsaw, I highly recommend this apartment!
L'appartamento è molto carino e confortevole e i proprietari gentili e disponibili. E' in una buona posizione, a 10 minuti di cammino dalla fermata della Metro (Ratuz Arsenal) e nei paraggi si trovano facilmente negozi di alimentari e altro. In circa 15 minuti di cammino si arriva nel centro storico (Stare Miasto). A pochi passi dall'appartamento il nuovo museo della storia degli ebrei polacchi...da non perdere! Specialmente per chi si trattiene più giorni a Varsavia, consiglio vivamente questo appartamento!
Pleasant accommodation for 2 people. Good equipment. Good place to visit Warsaw.
Agréable logement pour 2 personnes. Bon équipement. Bonne adresse pour visiter Varsovie.
The appartment was nice and clean. Near to buses and subway, not far from the center in a nice neighbourhood. The room was a bit small of course (everything in one space: kitchen, livingroom and sleepingcouch) but that was not much of a problem. The only thing I would have liked better, is when the light was a bit more cosy, and when there would have been some more small lamps. But with some candles and waxines and a bunch of flowers I felt quite at home!
Beautiful place, not far from the center, with a supermarket close by, as well as the metro, bus and tram. Quiet and hospitable. Would recommend to anyone.
Bellissimo posto, poco lontano dal centro, con un supermercato vicinissimo, così come la metro, bus e tram. Quartiere tranquillo e ospitale. Lo consiglio a chiunque.
Reviews for this host's other properties
Our third time, we got to stay a little longer and it was still perfect! The apartement is in the city center, but it is calm, we slept very well!
Really if you are searching for an apartement in Warsaw, do not search any longer!
We really loved Wiolettas apartment! It is in a perfect location just 10 minutes walk from central station and has good tram connections. Wioletta and her husband were very welcoming. The apartement is cozy and very clean. It is perfect to discover Warsaw. I would totally book again. We stayed their three times during summer and it was always great.
Nice Apartment and nice treatememt of the 2 landlords Wioletta and Mariusz. Good, quiet location, close to the old center of Warshaw. Apartment is equipped with all necessary features. Small repairs were done immediately. I stayed 3 weeks and had a great time. Thank you Wioletta and Mariusz.
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Just starting this year and will be installing a package into a new warre hive? I have a veil, jacket, hive tool and brush. Do I really need a smoker, or can I get by with just a hand sprayer when working with my warre?
Just starting this year and will be installing a package into a new warre hive? I have a veil, jacket, hive tool and brush. Do I really need a smoker, or can I get by with just a hand sprayer when working with my warre?
There will come a time when you wished you had one. No flow... nothing for the bees to do but hang around and bee grumpy, and you have some serious manipulation to do.....
"If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve."
Smokers are cheap enough and unless I've missed something there arent really any downsides to using one. Well some people have a problem keeping it lit but I've never really had an issue.
During my first year I very rarely used a smoker but there were times when I was VERY glad I had it. Get a smoker, it's a good insurance policy to have....
Buy a smoker. It is a small investment and if you're serious about keeping bees, you'll need it.
It will pay for itself the 1st day they are in a bad mood.
Invest in a decent smoker, or in an EXCELLENT veil+suit. I opted for the veil+suit myself, but I also threw together a "tin-can smoker" to use whenever my nerves start getting the better of me & it's time to calm down some bees during a cut-out
It's actually better for the bees even if they are very gentle. The smoke will go away and the bees can return to normal sooner than the alarm pheremone will leave the hive.
You don't NEED a smoker. You WANT a smoker.
As much as I like a smoker (and you should have one) I don't use them for package installs. The bees need to smell the pheromones to get organized and they are basically a swarm with nothing to defend.
Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 42y 40h 39yTF
Greg Whitehead, Ten Mile, TN
Blog - http://gregsbees.blogspot.com/
I did a MASSIVE cut-out last night; forgot my smoker in the garage on my way out... Turned out to be a MEAN hive, AND the biggest feral hive I've ever seen! My wife and I are both VERY sore now; should've brought the dang smoker!
Don't get one. It's much better to let the bees get worked up angry and upset when you open the hive, boil up all over everything so you end up crushing lots of them to death, and get the crap stung out of you.
That's unless it's a good day, but not every day is a good day.
I have seen the "I never use a smoker it's so much better for the bees" type statements, although I've never had it explained why this is better for the bees. It's also noticeable that these statements usually come from someone with very little practicle experience, and for obvious reasons. Once they have experienced a smoker they discover how much better it is for the bees.
Just, as has been said, don't use a smoker when installing a package or a swarm. The rest of the time, use one.
"Thinking Inside The Box"
When I first started, I had read that you don't need a smoker. That philosophy ended quickly after my first inspection.
Great - Thanks everyone. I will get one. Probably won't use it for the install, but will make sure I will practice with it before the bees arrive!
Straight up, the "I don't use a smoker" thing started happening a few years ago after a film came out, it was a cartoon about a beehive, and the beekeeper was this big evil guy with a smoker, who took their honey. Can't remember what the film was called maybe someone can.
Anyway that's where this no smoker stuff came from, a cartoon. Combine that with little experience, and new age philosophies, and you get smoker = bad.
"Thinking Inside The Box"
USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft
I started out back in 1981 with the advice that "smoke only made the bees madder." I had a heavy suit that was hotter than an oven. I had a pair of welding gloves and after opening a hive, the bees kept flying at me pinging my veil and swirling around my entire body. I had to walk around in that hot suit for about fifteen minutes until they finally left me alone.
Despite this advice coming from a respected mentor, I quietly purchased a smoker and have never regretted it. I've also not forgiven this mentor who has long since died.
Yes, get a smoker.
And as an aside, I had a call from someone who wanted to get a top bar hive. When I asked why they wanted a top bar hive, they responded, "Because I was told you don't have to use smoke."
I gently suggested they get a smoker. I didn't even want to know who filled their heads with such nonsense.
Jackson, MO
Beekeeping With Twenty-five Hives: https://www.createspace.com/4152725


text:
This is the same system that Shanahan has been running for 25 years. He's just added an option wrinkle to it.
Some fans who don't know anything about football actually see an option in a scheme and think they're all the same. Surprised to include Matt in that but there it is.
"Typical Morehead!"..................and he didn't even mean that as a compliment..


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Aggies Clipped by Vandals
Las Cruces, NEW MEXICO - New Mexico State women's basketball team held the Western Athletic Conference-leading Idaho Vandals to a close game throughout but eventually fell 75-66 on Thursday, Feb. 6 at the Pan American Center. The Aggies move to 4-5 in WAC play and the Vandals stay atop the league with a 9-0 record.
Junior guard Danesia Williamson improved on her career high with 33 points on the night. She also finished with five rebounds, three assists and a steal. Sophomore Sasha Weber helped out with 13 points and nine rebounds. She was just one board shy of a double-double but had three steals and two assists.
The team shot 34 percent from the floor and just 24 percent from range. Idaho shot a similar 35 percent as a team but found success from beyond the arc with 39 percent. The Aggies saw 20 points come from inside the paint and had 10 second-chance points, but the Vandals out-rebounded NM State 51-46.
"I thought we did some good things today, but we just have to be more consistent," head coach Mark Trakh said. "Our young kids are improving with every game, but we need more help from people. We have to be able to answer back when a team steps up in the second half like Idaho did."
Idaho took an early 9-3 lead over the Aggies after Williamson put the Aggies on the board with a bucket from deep. The Vandals scored two more off free throws before sophomore Abby Scott drove in for a layup inside the paint.
The Aggies went on a small seven-point run in the middle of the half and kept the game close near the 10-minute mark. NM State took its first lead of the game as Weber sank a three. NM State went up on the Vandals 18-14 before Idaho was able to score again.
NM State kept a lead over the WAC-leading Vandals as the teams traded points with the Aggies holding a three-point lead with 6:53 on the clock. Both teams were scoreless for the next three minutes, but NM State took a seven-point lead (31-24) in the final minutes with the help of nine points from Williamson. The half ended with NM State up 31-26 as Idaho's Connie Ballestero hit a jump shot with less than 30 seconds on the clock.
At the half, the Aggies shot 34 percent as a team, while Idaho shot just 23 percent. Williamson tallied 17 points in the first 20 minutes and Weber led the team with six rebounds, aiding in the team's 26 boards. NM State had already collected 12 points in the paint, while holding the Vandals to four.
The teams traded baskets early with Idaho picking up its first lead with just over 15 minutes on the clock. The advantage was short lived as layups from Weber and Williamson put the Aggies back ahead 41-39. The Aggie duo helped NM State with the next few baskets, including a three by Weber but back-to-back three's put the Vandals ahead of NM State 50-46 near the 10-minute mark.
NM State and the Vandals exchanged points with Idaho going up 61-52. Both teams hit free shots in next few minutes, keeping the point exchange consistent until Williamson and freshman Brianna Freeman helped close the gap to 65-59 with less than five minutes to play.
Deep shots by the Vandals put them up by 10 after hitting a layup and a three. Williamson drove in for a layup inside and picked up a free throw in the process. With the Aggies down 71-64 with 1:56 on left in the game, Idaho dropped two free shots and Williamson moved in for an open shot with less than 30 seconds. The game ended with a pair of buckets from the line by Idaho for the 75-66 win over NM State.
The Aggies continue at the Pan American Center hosting Seattle U on Saturday, Feb. 8 at 6 p.m.