text:
Town Square
Stimulus 102-- One Year and $800 Billion Later
Original post made by stephen levy, University South, on Feb 20, 2010
Let's start with two simple truths. One, the economy has been much worse than expected. The nation has seen 8 million jobs disappear and unemployment rates appear destined to stay near 10% for quite a while. Two, if Barack Obama (or George Bush) says that today is Monday, there will be a chorus of people saying no, today is definitely not Monday, the President is wrong again.
Why is the economy worse than expected one year ago and how does that affect our assessment of the stimulus program?
The nation lost 7.3 million jobs between December 2007 and June 2009 according to recently revised estimates, much more than had earlier been reported. Since June 2009 we have lost an additional 1.1 million jobs, again more than expected. The explanation about why the recession was deeper and longer than expected is straightforward if you put politics aside.
One, we are doing worse now because in retrospect we were doing much worse than we thought before the stimulus could ever kick in.
Two, we were doing worse because construction levels kept falling, consumers used resources to pay off debt and businesses seeing no customers and an atmosphere of fear reasonably reduced staffing and deferred investments. We had and still have a shortage of customers, so no job growth.
Three, the stimulus program did not fully meet the criteria of being timely, targeted and temporary. I can't defend much of the stimulus package although I like some of the parts that aren't stimulus by the usual definition. Roughly $ 70 billion went to prevent the Alternative Minimum Tax from jumping in the April 2010 tax returns. The AMT should have been funded with other taxes or budget cuts -- it is not stimulus. Much went to programs that I like such as energy grants and extending aid to college students that are part of the President's long-term agenda, not anti-recession stimulus spending.
Four, as a result just over 1/3 of the stimulus money has actually been spent so far including very little of the infrastructure spending. An equal amount is scheduled to be spent in 2010 clearly leaving a substantial amount for after 2010, not timely in any sense from the perspective of February 2009 when the stimulus was adopted.
Once you put the "it must be Tuesday because the President says it's Monday" crowd aside, there is broad agreement that the stimulus, politicized by both parties as it was, has helped. We had hoped the unemployment rate would be 8% instead of 10%. What we got was an unemployment rate around 10% instead of 11% or higher. GDP is higher by 1-2% compared to where it would have been without the stimulus.
The stimulus had the effect of saving some jobs, and creating a few, in a context where the rest of the economy was still laying off staff. This is seen in classrooms, in police departments, in the stores where people who got extended unemployment benefits shop and in the few infrastructure projects underway,
Voices such as the well respected libertarian Economist magazine and the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget (CRFB) agree that the stimulus helped. CRFB has a short analysis outlining these points while again urging focus on the nation's long-term budget crisis. See Web Link .
Where do we go from here?
Americans are reasonably concerned about two dangers: 1) the lack of job growth and 2) the impending explosion of federal deficits and debt. The answer is straightforward but is hard to implement in a climate of distrust and a climate where everyone wants problems to be solved with someone else's money.
From my perspective we need more short-term stimulus and more long-term fiscal responsibility. Doing both is like walking through the raindrops without an umbrella and staying dry -- really, really hard.
A longer recession benefits no one. More people are without jobs. More people are in danger of losing their home. Government revenues and services are cut and the federal government deficit rises.
Our troubled waters are deeper than expected and we need to build a longer and sturdier "bridge over troubled waters."
It is right to view getting out of the recession as a two-step process. The first step is policies to get spending growing again by attacking the "there are too few customers" problem. But the second step is scary. That is when and how much business will respond to increased spending with hiring.
Watch out for the second step. In technical terms economists are wondering if the link between GDP and job growth has been temporarily broken or decoupled. Right now we are in the sixth month of GDP gains with no job gains.
Still, it is right to press on with policies to support spending in the economy.
Currently now the Congress is debating another stimulus package and timidity rules the day. Now is the time to go back to timely, targeted and temporary. The case for another year of aid to state and local governments is the same as the case for extending unemployment insurance benefits. The need is still there and the money will be spent immediately.
Infrastructure is another winner -- short term benefits and we end up with an asset that will keep giving. By now we should have a backlog of shovel ready projects that can go immediately.
For the people in Congress who know this is the right course and for their supporters this is the time to stand up and put getting reelected by playing safe off for another era. We are in serious trouble and it is time to put country first. To people who disagree with this path, let's debate it out without name calling.
Long-term deficit reduction is a much tougher sell because it can't be solved just by the "other folks" footing the bill.
The simple truths for a starting point are one, we have made promises with regard to government health care and Social Security programs that are no longer financially sustainable. Even though these are promised benefits and even though residents have paid into these programs, they are unsustainable and need to be adjusted.
We need a new social and fiscal contract.
Two, the federal deficits and debt are largely related to out of control health care costs and predated the recession. Groups like CRFB have been warning for a decade about the coming crisis. It is not the result of the recession and stimulus package and most Americans have their fingerprints on not solving the problem.
The straightforward answer, the one that Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles gave last week when they were appointed to co-chair the deficit reduction commission, is that a combination of benefit reductions and tax increases will be needed. This is true even if we are successful in reducing health care cost growth, which is critical to success in deficit reduction.
People who think that this is the fault of one party or another or that it can be solved only through benefit cuts or privatizing these programs are living in an alternate universe from my perspective.
If Americans want problems solved "in the center" here is a great opportunity for sharing in the design and the costs of putting the country on a more sustainable fiscal course.
Comments (36)
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 20, 2010 at 1:31 pm
As noted, all responsible economists agree that it is a bad idea to cut government spending during a recession/depression. The hard part is to follow through with the corollary -- as unemployment falls, the government should cut spending and start repaying the debt. Debt as a percentage of GNP fell under every administration, Democratic and Republican, from the end of WWII until the Reagan presidency. Since then, there have been two huge buildups of debt, the first under Reagan, and then, again under George W. Bush-- for the reason that both presidents cut taxes and increased spending at the same time.
The obvious solution is gradually to raise taxes and cut spending as soon the unemployment gradually starts to go down. This worked before, and, it will work again.
However, there is one major difference between "then" and "now": the cost of health care is much higher than it used to be and much higher than in other similarly productive industrial economies. The high cost of health care is something that will have to be addressed one way or the other, because otherwise Medicare will eat up most of the Federal budget.
a resident of Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Feb 20, 2010 at 1:53 pm
no..not true. Please read Thomas Sowell for a live one, or Milton Friedman for a post-humous read.. I am pretty sure they both qualify as "responsible economists", and don't "agree that it is a bad idea to cut govt during a recession"..precisely the opposite is true, as proven repeatedly during history.
The responsible thing to do now is learn from history. Cut taxes and stop trying to regulate "fair and equal outcomes" by "spreading the wealth", stop trying to do "central planning" economics. This has failed every time it has been tried, from Jamestown to now, from Russia to Venezuela.
Have you had enough of economy killing Democrat ideas? Enough "spread the wealth" dreamin', govt takeover of private businesses, govt breaking of private-contracts, demonizing "greedy capitalists", constant attempt to do centrally-planned economics,..all scaring the crap out of business owners and investors?
If so, vote for changing back to what we had, and get ready for our economic engines to roar back to life. Follow Massachussetts' lead.
Throw all "bigger govt" incumbents out regardless of party affiliation ( yes, that goes for all the RINOs like McCain also), start over with folks who understand what made our country the richest heterogenous country in the world..and let us get back to work.
Those of us with any money at all are waiting to get some consistent predictability and common sense back into our government. All this "progressive" regressive thinking has slammed our wallets shut..we simply aren't going to take any more risks when all we have to look forward to is not having any control at all over our business decisions or our income, after having risked what little we have left.
Why should any of us risk anything? The last time many of us risked ( and now have lost most or all of what we risked), a little understood and unknown Congressional law, the Community Reinvestment Act, was perverted and shoved down the throats of mortgage companies..then used to ignite the economic wildfire we have just survived. If common sense with "same rules" had prevailed,nobody would have gotten any house keys without putting 20% down and having a verifiable consistent income.
But, the "progressive thinking", trying to force "equal outcomes", prevailed, and here we are.
This political tide has swept away any desire to work hard and risk anything, since it seems the knee jerk reaction is always the same "tax more, regulate more, class-warfare demonize more"
Forget it. We are riding this one out until the tide turns again. Call us when America wakes up.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 20, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Here are some suggestions, which do not increase taxes or increase the deficit. In fact they decrease the deficit and increase jobs and GDP.
1. Immediately allow oil companies to drill where the oil is, namely ANWAR and offshore. This creates immediate jobs and reduces our dependence on foreign oil (thus reducing our balance of trade deficit). A real winner.
2. Require that the Highway Trust Fund revnues, paid for by user taxes on fuel, be given back to building highways and roads. No more throwing it down the drain of public transportation and bicycle paths. There are many "shovel ready" highway projects that are lacking funds to start digging. Public transportation is a real loser...ever watch all those empty buses and light rail coaches with next to nobody on them?
3. Immediately vote to allow more nuclear power plants, as well as micro-plants. This would be good for the environment (ask Stewart Brand and read the short article in the latest issue of the National Geographic). It is true that nothing is shovel ready, at this point, because nukes have been opposed by the left, but it would send a huge signal that we, as a county, are back in business...and that we mean business. If the left gets behind nukes, as it should, watch the good times roll.
There are a number of other similar ideas that do not increase taxes, yet stimulate the economy immediately, and for the long run. However, I will leave it at three, and hope that you actually respond to them. Thanks, Stephen.
a resident of Meadow Park
on Feb 20, 2010 at 4:45 pm
BTW, I have to disagree with the assertion that it is a "simple truth" that the economy has been much worse than expected.
Those who invest and have businesses etc knew that this was going to be a really rocky road when we woke up to the election results on November 5th, 2008. There was nobody left to even remotely check the dream of the left to turn us into Europe. Please remember the drop from the 9,000s to the 6,000s of the DOW from election day to inauguration day.
Because of the hope given us by the push-back of the American people last year, we climbed back up to election day levels and have hovered around there since last summer.
So, the real simple truth is that the economy is worse than expected BY THOSE WHO VOTED FOR OBAMA...who expected that that a complete takeover by the left would help the economy. About 46% of us knew better, and voted against him ( most of us holding our noses and voting for someone not much more educated in economics, but with at least a greater probability of surrounding himself with advisors who WERE)
a resident of Downtown North
on Feb 20, 2010 at 4:57 pm
I agree that it should be no surprise that the economy has gotten worse. I do not blame Obama or the Democrats. Instead, the blame should fall on a corrupt financial system that rewards members of a small self-serving club and essentially cares nothing about the rest of us. Membership in that club crosses party lines.
Don't miss this fascinating piece for a very different perspective: Web Link
Hate to sound like a gloom-and-doomer, but I suspect it's only going to get worse, as those who have the power to change the system are also its greatest beneficiaries.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 20, 2010 at 5:37 pm
"Hate to sound like a gloom-and-doomer, but I suspect it's only going to get worse"
No, mba, it doesn't have to be all gloom and doom. I have suggested three, among many possible approaches, all of which will make our economy boom. None of these approaches will raise taxes, and all of them will spur jobs and the GDP, as well as increased tax revenues. It is a simple concept called econcomic growth. Economic growth will occur when we decide to exploit our resources that are available to us.
There is a great future in front of us, if only we decide we want it. Will it take 20% unemployment before we decide to get real?
a resident of Downtown North
on Feb 20, 2010 at 5:55 pm
Gene, your ideas may have merit, but what's that old saying about the violinist on the deck of the Titanic?
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 20, 2010 at 6:12 pm
"what's that old saying about the violinist on the deck of the Titanic?"
mba, we are not going down on the Titantic. Yes, we are slowly sinking, but the ship can be saved. I have suggested some realistic solutions, namely that we need to exploit our own strengths and resources. I fail to see that we are doomed. In fact, we have a very bright future, if only we will choose it.
Imagine that the Titantic did not sink, but was seriously wounded...but made it into NYC harbor. The serious, and sober-minded would have taken a look at the situation, and decided to make engineering designs that made sense. They would not have said, "Trans-Atlantic passage is doomed!" Come to think of it, even though the Tiatantic went down, it was not all dispair and doom...they just made the ships and technology better. Somehow, we have lost our spirit.
I am here to tell you that the American economy has a very bright future, IF we decide to choose that path. If we decide that it is all gloom and doom, and that the only way out is more printing of money and more social welfare spending, then I might agree with you. We need to grow this economy by exploiting our resources.
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 20, 2010 at 6:21 pm
Since all y'all seem to be having trouble remembering the economy during the Reagan years, let me help you recall. Check out the graphs on the following reference, the information in which can be found on many places online. No recent administration, Republican or Democratic, ever loved debt as much as the Reagan administration:
Web Link
Now, some have argued that the economic impact was worth it. After all, some of that spending went towards demoralizing the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, for example. Whether it was worth it or not is a different question than should we have borrowed to maintain our accustomed level of consumption while undertaking the military buildup during those years. Guns or butter became guns and butter and debt.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 20, 2010 at 7:39 pm
I remember that Reagan supported a hard shock on the stagflation that was in effect when he entered office. He also encouraged private capital formation, by cutting investment taxes, which led to a major influx of capital to the venture capital firms and stock market. These firms supported the commerical development of the Internet, from Defense Dept. initial efforts. Without the capital pool formation, the dot.com boom would not have happened in the 1990s. Reagan had his faults, but he was resposnible for the recovery from the Carter stagflation period, and he was responsible for the foundation of the dot.com boom.
Reagan, in fact, is a good optimistic example of what we need to do, now. He supported the exploitation of our natural resources, probably because he was raised in poverty, and understood the effects of poverty on his own family. His own emotional view is not popular among the privileged classes, but the current economic decline may yet make believers of them.
a resident of Leland Manor/Garland Drive
on Feb 20, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Gene, thank you for taking up the economic flag. The old canards "Reagan was bad for the economy" ( in spite of all evidence to the contrary) and "FDR saved us from the Great Depression" ( in spite of all evidence to the contrary) canards keep resurrecting. It is exhausting to have to always educate folks, but luckily there are others like you willing to take up the flag and carry it forward.
a resident of Crescent Park
on Feb 21, 2010 at 1:14 am
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There has been a big cultural ... structural change in the United States over the time that we have worked up to this mess. Huge deficits in health care, and a food system that is dysfunctionally creating sick and sicker kids. Kids that grow up with pornography, crime, violence, etc ... very few images of positive life.
Adults that have no jobs after doing what they are supposed to do. A predator society that is getting just what it set up to get. A government bought and sold by the very people who have brought all of this about.
The idea that the whole rest of the developed world is going a separate way from the United States, and somehow we feel empowered and righteous to use war as an instrument of policy, with very little buy in from allies or the UN, and especially when we cannot afford it.
There is a lot wrong, that steers us into the gutters before we even take a look at the accounting and the big picture of the economy. It is just astounding the idiocy that is taken as serious thinking. Sort of like the idea that making kids sick with diabetes and heart disease is a net plus to the GDP because of the money that is going to spent to fix the problem. This is the kind of thinking that is positively insane, yet it does not get laughed at when it is put out there.
The people who steered us into this mess are insulated and numb to the suffering and problems of America and are clearly unqualified to be behind the driver's seat, yet this is who we have making the decisions, because we have a President who is at the mercy of what he is told by experts. Experts who either caused this or missed it ... hard to know which is worse.
It is clear that the free market privatization thing has been pushed way past incompetent and into disaster, and yet it is not being evaluated, because it does what it is supposed to do, centralize control of the economy with the "Dick Cheney"s of the world. Sorry if many of you do not appreciate that analogy. The cost is put on people who do not know and do not have the power to fight back, while the benefit is handed to those who do not care and who just get richer. In electrical engineering we call this positive feedback, and it often continues until something blows up.
And what else can we expect from our leaders? Since we have never recognized of cultivated diverse opinions in the media, in our government, we have nothing different to look at. What else would Obama do even if he wanted to?
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The costs of government programs is out of control because of private industry incompetence, so no mention of fixing that. The private industries of health care, big pharma and insurance are the biggest cause of all of our problems, and you continue to the frame the problems as one of government giveaways.
Both parties are owned by the same controllers, and it is the controllers that make both the private system criminal and the government system corrupt. They also now own the judicial, so I guess we will continues to see issues framed as they like until and even after we start to see soldiers patrolling our streets. - probably contract mercenaries at that.
a resident of Crescent Park
on Feb 21, 2010 at 1:24 am
Yes Gene, exploiting our natural resources will close the loop and put us in the model of the third world countries we have given that advice to. Screw your indigenous population, in this case the American people, and sell off their resources.
According to many history books I have read the idea of infant industries was more or less pioneered by Alexander Hamilton, who through tariffs and protectionist policies built up the US industrial and agricultural base that otherwise would have left us a plantation for Britain. We even ignored many patents in order to do that.
Virtually every other successful country has helped their own domestic businesses in some cases for decades, except in American we have this fundamentalist religion of Free Market Carpitalism, which when looked at closesly makes about as much sense as any other religion ... that is any other religion that has had several hundred year for corruption to fester. Japan, Germany, South Korea, all the places our capitalist leaders who have paid off our democratic leaders to look the other way, have shipped our manufacturing and industry.
The answer is not to exploit our natural resources with limit unless the question is how do we give even more money and power to those who have brought about this gutting of the economy?
a resident of Meadow Park
on Feb 21, 2010 at 6:34 am
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The circular thinking in your post is also quite effective in revealing and strengthening your side of the debate aisle, such as the the one about the cost of govt being out of control because private businesses are incompetent ...or the one about private businesses being responsible for the laws that hurt their businesses and gutted our economy.
Think about it for a moment..would ANYONE making a lot of money purposefully destroy their money-making business? Or do you think it is possible that a factor outside their control and completely unexpected, like government laws and power combined with rabid blackmailing lawsuits from certain tax-funded organizations ..would it be possible in your schema to acknowledge that it is completely irrational to think that anyone would set up something which would HURT HIM OR HERSELF??
The posits on your part are just as effective as Obama, Biden, Reid, Pelosi and Frank ( and McCain when he was running, though he has flipped again in this area)..saying we have to spend our way out of debt ( or, sometimes they couch it better and say "spend our way out of a recession"..uh huh..)
The only thing we agree on is that most people, politicians included, in it for the money and the power..if you always remember that, then you will stop giving government both money and power to wield over us and our private businesses, and then our private businesses won't be in bed with any of the politicians, ( including insurances etc) and we will all be a lot better off....
the good thing about private businesses competing with each other is that, unlike a monopoly by a govt, millions of us can choose which one we like, and let the ones we don' like adapt and/or die.
There..problems solved, adulthood regained for the citizens of the USA.
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a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 21, 2010 at 9:43 am
(not to be confused with Anon of Crescent Park)
I expected to see a lot of Free Market Fundamentalists posts, and, I did. Like any fundamentalist religion, the adherents feel that pragmatic compromises are a slippery slope.
There probably are a few things we could agree on, though, although a Fundamentalist always hates to agree with a pragmatist like myself.
First, I think we could agree that during an economic expansion, the Federal Government should cut spending and pay down the debt.
Second, I think we could agree that the existing Medicare program is a budgetary time bomb -- Medicare taxes won't come remotely close to covering the cost of the program as an "insurance program". Something will have to be done about that--
But, we probably don't agree on what. I, for example, am unwilling to see people, especially children, dying in the streets because their families can't afford basic medical care. Unfortunately, pure Free Market Capitalism doesn't offer a solution to this problem. Free Market Capitalism does a wonderful job with creating and distributing personal electronics, but, it doesn't do a good job of providing medical care service to the people who most need it when they most need it, and, to top it off, modern medical care is so capital intensive that emergency medical care is basically a local monopoly. **This is a hard problem.** Simplistic solutions have never worked. So, we all need to find a pragmatic solution that will mostly work.
a resident of University South
on Feb 21, 2010 at 10:34 am
stephen levy is a registered user.
I am always happy when a pragmatist joins the discussion.
I agree that economic expansions are times to reduce the deficit although I see it mainly as not spending much of the additional revenue brought in during the expansion--something that both parties regualarly violate.
And I agree that Medicare (and rising health care costs) is a time bomb that needs a new social contract and new health care and insurance arrangements.
I just watched Governors Rendell and Schwarzeneeger on television agree on three other points that were the main thrust of the blog--1) that the stimulus program worked to make the recession less horrible than it is, which is still awful and 2) that more spending on infrastructure and aid to state and local governments is needed now and a good idea. Temporary, timely and targeted. We should add extenstion of unemployment benefits.
There are a couple of people on the thread who keep asking about nuclear power. I am open as is the President to supporting carefully planned projects. But this is not stimulus funding just as energy and Pell grants for the long term are not stimulus funding. Nuclear plants take a long time before construction begins.
Stimulus funding is not my favorite project or your favorite project or what you think is good for the long term. Stimulus money needs to be spent now, be targeted to where that will happen and be temporary so we can get quickly to the task of long term budget balance.
If the answer to everything is to blame political parties or corporations then we in Palo Alto are showing the world that we are unable or unwilling to take on the adult task of governing ourselves without letting disagreement disolve into gridlock and name calling.
The Reagan lovers are misinterpreting history.
Reagan was one of the leading Keynesian Presidents of the century.
Between 1980 and 1986 defense spending doubled. During the Reagan years and into the first Bush presidency, we ran large deficits every year even when the economy was booming. California did very well with the large jump in defense research and procurement spending. No one was complaining as the deficits and debt soared.
We can argue about priorities in spending but the record is clear--increased federal spending and deficits jump started the good economic years of the 1980s and left the task of balancing the budget to President Clinton.
So back to my original questions--how do you assess last year's stimulus efforts--would it have been worse without them, 2) what should we do now and 3) how can we resolve the long-term deficit and national debt challenges.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 21, 2010 at 10:51 am
Walter_E_Wallis is a registered user.
Instead of forcing medical facilities to serve non-payers and make it up from payers, directly reimburse providers 70% of their usual rates, but declare all reimbursements to be tax free at state and federal level. Have IRS seek long term reimbursement from those with an ability to pay.
Increase energy supply and reduce energy cost 10% a year for 5 years.
Eliminate capital gains tax.
Then figure out what to do with the budget surplus.
a resident of Meadow Park
on Feb 21, 2010 at 11:15 am
Again, labeling those who disagree as "fundamentalists" or "not pragmatic" is not helpful.
It IS pragmatic, and fundamentalist only insofar as it harks back to the original intent and context of the Constitution, when we say get back to free(er) markets, free(er) individuals..it works, it raises everyone's standard of living...therefore it is pragmatic.
I simply do not accept that we have to keep "going along to get along" as we slide ever more into turning into Greece.
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Feb 21, 2010 at 11:19 am
To call Reagan "Keynesian" reveals a tremendous Orwellian twist on what Keynes/FDR believed and did.
I strongly recommend to all people the book "People of the Lie, The Hope for Healing Human Evil" to understand how we have gotten to this point in our political discourse.
a resident of University South
on Feb 21, 2010 at 12:10 pm
stephen levy is a registered user.
We teach our children to judge people by what they do, not what they say.
So, although Reagan would never say he believed in government stimulus to jump start the economy out of recession, that is what he did. Lots of spending, lots of deficits, lots of debt. And it worked!! Why a conservative kept spending with big deficits after the economy had recovered is another story, but I guess all politicians find it hard to take away the cookie jar.
You can use all the words you want, tell people to read books with the word Lie in the title but you can't change what actually happened.
So both governors today on This Week, knowing that stimulus had become a dirty word, instead called for an infrastructure surge and more money for states and localities. The President will follow suit.
Hopefully by calling what we need anything but stimulus we can get beyond the sound bites and help people and the economy until private sector spending steps up.
And, hopefully then, we can together take away the cookie jar and get down to reforming health care and working out a new social contract about retirement benefits at all levels of governement.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 21, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Walter_E_Wallis is a registered user.
"We teach our children to judge people by what they do, not what they say."
You say potatoe, I say corpseman?
a resident of Downtown North
on Feb 21, 2010 at 1:02 pm
We need to
* Cut back the government. It's gotten way too big.
* Forgive (or minimize) vast amounts of individual debt, possibly via inflation.
Putting labels on people doesn't help, and assigning party affiliations to posters is particularly meaningless. Both parties have bought into the scam that has resulted in our current situation.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 21, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Pragmatism has 4 key features (Tara Smith, The Objective Standard, Fall 2008).
1. A short-range perspective. Range-of-the-moment thinking. What works today may not work tomorrow.
2. The inability (or refusal) to think in principle
3. The denial of definite identity. Whatever the subject of inquiry, each thing is regarded as sort of this and sort of that.
4. The refusal to rule out possibilities. Keep all options open--indefinitely. Nothing is ever off the table.
I would not be proud to claim this style of thinking.
a resident of College Terrace
on Feb 21, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Cool article. Thanks R.
a resident of University South
on Feb 21, 2010 at 3:01 pm
stephen levy is a registered user.
Folks might want to consider that people using the word pragmatic or pragmaism are refering to the concept as normally explained--not by someone who thinks it is unprincipled.
So here is the Merriam Webster online dictionary definition
1 : a practical approach to problems and affairs <tried to strike a balance between principles and pragmatism>
2 : an American movement in philosophy founded by C. S. Peirce and William James and marked by the doctrines that the meaning of conceptions is to be sought in their practical bearings, that the function of thought is to guide action,
I can go with "a practical approach to problems" particularly in a world where many issues have 50-50 splits among Americans on ideology and I think the "function of thought is to guide action" is an ok principle to work with.
To the folks who write about cuttijg governemnt here, let's get specific. What would you cut in the federal budget and how do you propose to get it passed?
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 21, 2010 at 5:07 pm
"To the folks who write about cuttijg governemnt here, let's get specific. What would you cut in the federal budget and how do you propose to get it passed?"
1 Eliminate EPA, D O Energy, D O Ed, Endangered Species Act, Wilderness Act, all armed guards on non-military government buildings, [let them call 911] and all bodyguards and make State Department a agency within department of Defense. 2. Damfino. Prayer? -
a resident of Green Acres
on Feb 21, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Agree with eliminating the DOE and the EPA.
In addition, eliminate all non-military federal jobs added since Jan 1, 2001 regardless of what they were. WE have about 2 million civilian Fed employees now according to our BLS.
Does anyone know how many non-active duty military Fed employees we had in 2001.?
Don't have time to find it now, but I can venture a guess that we have increased by at least 10% the number of Fed employees since then. Probably more.
Between cutting all non-military fed gains, the EPA and the DOE, I would bet we would cut 20% off our Fed budget automatically.
Oh...put the Medicare drug benefit back to where it was before Bush doubled it...or at least means test it.
Cut the Medicare and social security rolls within the next 5 years ...effective today, anyone 60-55 has to wait until they are 66 to retire..50-54 waits till 67, and 45-49 waits till 68. I would venture a guess that we could keep pushing this back until we have to wait until 70 to retire. Given that at the time of Social Security enactment the average folks didn't live past 65, we have to get our benefit age to at least "average" years of life, or close to it. Right now our average rate is about 75..we should push ourselves rapidly toward govt benefits not starting until at least 70 years old.
a resident of Green Acres
on Feb 21, 2010 at 6:43 pm
oops..I meant anyone 60-65, not 60-55, has to wait until they are 66 to retire on govt bennies..
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 22, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Reagan cut marginal tax rates ("supply side", something Keynes did not believe in), he restricted the money supply (Paul Volcker), and he increased defense spending in a time of war...that he won.
If this makes him a Keynsian, then I would say that definitions have expanded beyond the rational, not to mention a misinterpretation of history.
OK, so if the cold war was not being fought, and Reagan had no particular reason to expand the militaary budget, would he still have been successful in expanding the economy? I would say "yes", because he allowed private individuals to pool private capital. These pools of money drove the personal Internet revolution. However, I am also mindful that DARPA research created the early version of the Internet (not Al Gore), and DARPA may not have gotten into the business, if the cold war was not driving its mandates.
The notion that Reagan defeated stagflation through deficit spending is curious, at best.
a resident of University South
on Feb 22, 2010 at 3:36 pm
stephen levy is a registered user.
Your love for Reagan is admirable--a true believer.
But the fact that he used deficit spending and ran up the national debt is a fact--look at any history of the deficit and debt. What is curious is that you allow your ideology to block out simple data. Can you say biggest peacetime deficits in history--yes, it's Ronald Reagan.
But he is in good company, which was the point I was making. Deficits are the right policy to increase spending at a time when there is a shortage of customers.
Look at the bipartisan support for the current deficit spending.
David Walker, President and CEO of the Peter G. Peterson Foundation: "I think it's very important to separate
the short term from the structural. It's understandable to run deficits when you have a recession, a depression or
unprecedented financial services and housing-type of challenges and crises that we've had. That's not what I'm
concerned about."
Gene Steuerle, Senior Fellow, The Urban Institute, and co-director of the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy
Center: "Contrary to much debate, getting the long-term budget in order does not require avoiding stimulus in bad
times; it only means reasonable reductions in those levels in good times."
Greg Mankiw, Harvard Professor and Former Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors under George
W. Bush: "It is a textbook principle of prudent fiscal policy that deficits are an appropriate response in times of war
and recession."
Isabell Sawhill, Senior Fellow, Brookings: "It is important to stimulate the economy now and not worry about the
deficits needed to do this but we should simultaneously be enacting legislation that will gradually phase in spending
cuts and revenue increases over the next decade."
Concord Coalition: "It may be appropriate for government to spend more than it taxes during downturns in
the business cycle. The Concord Coalition has always recognized the importance of fiscal stimulus, so long as
the stimulus is timely, targeted, and temporary."
Reagan did the right thing in running deficits and the wrong thing in not reducing the deficit in good times. He joins bipartisan wimpiness in fighting long-term deficits.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 22, 2010 at 5:20 pm
"Can you say biggest peacetime deficits in history--yes, it's Ronald Reagan."
Stephen, your problem is that we WERE at war. Reagan spent enough to win that war. It was not "peacetime". Were you living in an alternative universe?
The "peace dividend" that was abundantly availaible to Clinton, and constrained and focused by Gingrich, served to balance the federal deficit.
I think your eseential problem, Stephen, is that you are too ideological.
a resident of Greenmeadow
on Feb 23, 2010 at 6:25 am
I agree with you, Gene. Connecting dots from past, current and future is a very difficult skill set, and thus "ideology" can get in the way.
And, to try to propose that deficit spending, no matter on what nor in what manner, is Keynesian shows, again, either a lack of understanding of what Keynesian economics is, or a deliberate attempt to obfuscate.
In this case, trying to claim both Reagan AND Obama are "keynesian", ( that is the subtext of the entire thread) is a breathtaking assumption. Keynesian is so much more than simply "deficit spending", as you explained.
In addition, simply put, "keynesian" assumes a (proven false during FDR, Johnson, Carter and now again in the last 2 years) multiplier factor of 1.5 for every deficit tax dollar taken from a producer and "put" into a non-military government job. The purpose and results are completely different from military spending for a purpose. Please note where Reagan put the dollars, and where Obama ( and Carter, Johnson and FDR in the first term) put the dollars and the results.
One, keynesian, has an end-point of simply "jobs"...which unfortunately sounds good but fails every time because of the way millions of individuals react.
The other has an end-point, which works, of increasing the security of our nation so we can prosper. In the second, the producers don't slow producing, because the rules are still in their favor, the rewards are still worth the risk of investment and growth, the risk of moving for a different job, etc. The result can be government deficit spending, yes....but everyone knows this too shall end, and once it does, we explode in economic activity, the "peace dividend" you mentionned.
The other, keynesian, is a never-ending growth of taking from proven producers and distributing it to either non-producers or "the chosen" producers who may, or may not, actually produce again. In the midst of this particular model we see also a strong tendency to change the game rules of business so that those who have risked lose what they have already put into their businesses, and clamp shut their wallets as they wait to see what the new rules of the game are going to be. The producers give up risking, knowing we have lost control of our outcome risk management. This is a simplistic explanation, but it rests on the mindset of those who actually drive the economy...individuals who risk and invest and grow ( or not) creating ( or not) jobs.
Obviously I speak as a producer, and perhaps more obviously, I don't have a PhD in economics. However, 30 years producing, in various businesses, risking, winning and losing, with a strong interest in history, including the history of economics, combined with tracking down each new or re-emerged govt rule which has hurt me in the last 30 years, ...and here I am.
Unfortunately, every new rule in the last 2 years has done nothing but drive us further down the rabbit hole, much like Alice where up is down, and nothing makes sense anymore.
Bottom line, economies are driven by everyone looking after his own best interest, and in so doing, the economy thrives or destructs. When the rules are constant and reward risk and work, everyone wins, the poor get richer, the rich get richer, the tax coffers overflow...it takes a couple years, but business friendly laws and taxes that we can count on for at least 8 years work every time. When the opposite rushes in on a tidal wave of populism and fear...this is the result.
Back to the point..I doubt it is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate in this case, but it can still be just as destructive because so many people believe in the omnipotence of the degree "PhD", and don't understand that a PhD means a strong study of one small area of one small subject ...
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 23, 2010 at 9:00 pm
"Agree with Gene": Interesting Wikipedia articles on Keynes, including the famous Milton Friedman/Nixon phrase "We are all Keynesians now":
Web Link
You might say, along the same lines, that all Physicists are Galileans now, as opposed to, e.g., Aristotelians. Economics has come a long way from Keynes, but, he was the first to analyze things in a particular way that everyone takes for granted now.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 23, 2010 at 9:25 pm
You should at least try to be honest about the links you provide.
"The phrase was first attributed to Milton Friedman in the December 31, 1965 edition of Time magazine.[1] In the February 4, 1966 edition, Friedman wrote a letter clarifying that his original statement had been "In one sense, we are all Keynesians now; in another, nobody is any longer a Keynesian."[2]"
This is a direct quote from your link (Wikipedia). Do you even bother to read the content of your links?
a resident of Another Palo Alto neighborhood
on Feb 25, 2010 at 7:50 am
Of course I read it. That's why I posted the link. I'm sorry that you missed the point about economic analysis-- everyone, including Friedman, learned from and built upon Keynes. Friedman disagreed with certain of Keynes policy recommendations. Keep reading.
a resident of Midtown
on Feb 25, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Keynesianism did not work in the Great Depression. If you may recall, there was a depression within the Depression in 1937-38. We know Keynesian true belivers, like Paul Krugman, who think that Morgenthau is at fault for not spenidng even more money. In a certain way, Kurgman is right, because it took a world war of immense cost, in blood and treasure, to restrict individual rights, in order to get demand built up...then unleashed after the war.
If you think a world war is the way to go, then just say so. I think we can overcome this current crisis without a world war. I have already mentioned some specific examples.
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subset: commoncrawl


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text:
Hi All--Photos Anyone???
Hi All--Photos Anyone???
Hi All, I don't have my blocks done for this week. Soon tho. Anne
Here are my 17 and 18 :lol:
Nice blocks, I thought we didn't officially start working on these until tomorrow....am I behind again (I just got caught up!) or are you just really on top of things?
Where are the rotary directions please?
My blocks #17 & #18. I did rotary cut with #17 and used my new EQ7 foundation print for #18.
#17 Cats and Mice
#18 Century of Progress
Well, I've got 17 & 18. I'm not satisfied with 18 so may redo it after I see how well it plays with the other blocks when more are done with the sashing. There is a big lump in the center because of the seam allowances. I paper pieced it so couldn't press open the seams.
Cats and Mice
Century of Progress
Very nice blocks. I thought these were hard and I'm still not happy with my #18 (will post tomorrow). Love the fabrics you all chose.
I've finished mine too, will post tomorrow! No. 18 was a bear, tore it apart several times. Still not pleased with it, but "Oh Well". Am I bad or what! :-D
Very nice work ladies!
It seems I have officially joined the slacker group...........just finished 14


text:
Town Square
Park Theater vote/direction this Tuesday
Original post made by CouncilWatcher, Menlo Park: Downtown, on Sep 29, 2007
a) a $500,000 loan, or b) the city purchase of the Park Theater for him, granting him a 25 year leaseback.
The staff report and request from Duncan are both online on the city website.
No mention is any due diligence by the city of Duncan's experience with such projects, nor financial status.
Nor is there mention of a cap for returning to the city for further grants.
Now is the time to get messages on the council email.
Comments (9)
a resident of Menlo Park: Downtown
on Sep 30, 2007 at 7:22 am
I still can't believe that this is still being considered. Consideration of this "proposal" is using city resources including those of the city attorney and city manager ($240k/year).
Since these things are on PDFs, I am showing you the direct links for your convenience.
Please stop this madness!
City Council Page:
Web Link
October 2 Agenda:
Web Link
Staff Report on Duncan "proposal"
Web Link
Duncan "proposal"
Web Link
Another staff report:
Web Link
a resident of Menlo Park: University Heights
on Sep 30, 2007 at 8:03 am
Thanks for all these links! This is terrific.
a resident of Menlo Park: Downtown
on Oct 1, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Can this really be happening with my money?
If is does, I will use this template to create 100 new business ideas to fill the boxes full with requests for free money.
Someone please make this kind of thing go away!
a resident of Menlo Park: Downtown
on Oct 1, 2007 at 6:10 pm
The fact that this hair-brained "proposal" is even being CONSIDERED is a cruel joke on us... the taxpayers!
Seriously, when I read about this stupid idea a while back, I thought I was reading "The Onion" comedy newspaper.
If the Council is hearing ridiculous ideas, then I'm asking for money to open a coal mine in Downtown Menlo Park.
If the Dance Studio proposal is being considered, then my proposed coal mine should be as well. They both make as much sense!!
a resident of Menlo Park: Belle Haven
on Oct 1, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Are the mayor's kids in Duncan's dance school? Thought someone mentioned that before, so why not a "Park Barrel" with a giveaway of taxpayers funds to get some mileage out of this otherwise dismal mayoral term. From what we hear, the mayor is pushing this hard because she only has 60 days left to assert any significant(?) influence in city matters, otherwise not enough to show during her watch to get re-elected next November We get a new mayor come December, probably Judge Cohen.
None too soon!
a resident of Menlo Park: The Willows
on Oct 1, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Kelly has no traction for re=election. Even her former Willows supporters can't abide her lack of concern for their pressing needs of traffic calming, crime suppression. Guess when you live on a cul de sac away from daily stress of speeders and burglars you lose sight of critical issues. She could do the right thing and make best effort on their behalf, but like so many Willows bred mayors in the past, she's forgotten to take care of her own neighborhood, mistakenly believing that "city wide" issues need to be addressed. Well the "city" is not looking so good. Streets are pot holed, police dept. is in sad shape, but we are "greener"(?) So their notions of higher office become their undoing. Just another politician looking for a cause.
So sad!
a resident of Menlo Park: Downtown
on Oct 1, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Sadly, Menlo council members often become "regionalists" due to their participation in Bay Area committees that are looking for some "bigger" solution. They tend to lose sight of local problems that need critical attention. That's why Menlo Park is considered a patsy when it comes to "regional" traffic management issues. Look at what San Mateo county public works has done to protect it's neighborhoods adjacent to Menlo from speeders, North Fair Oaks, Alameda area, etc. It doesn't seem to be a priority for Menlo Park, just let those manic Suv's go pedal to the metal. Keep an eye on your kids before they get hit!
a resident of Menlo Park: Central Menlo Park
on Oct 2, 2007 at 11:23 pm
What a travesty.
Kudos to John Boyle and Andy Cohen for speaking up on the side of reason.
a resident of Menlo Park: other
on Oct 3, 2007 at 12:21 am
If Kelly's kids are in that dance school, isn't that a conflict of interest? Wouldn't she have to recuse herself from voting on this issue?
Why is our city staff doing studies for Andy Duncan's project, at tax payers expense? Why isn't he required to do them the way everyone else is expected to do?
What about parking? Where are all the people that will be using this new facility going to park?
Did anyone else notice how Mr. Duncan's story changed as to why this project was so important to him? I think he stood up, interrupted the council meeting, and changed his tune at least three times to try and sway votes.
Thank you John Boyle and Andy Cohen for sticking to your guns!
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text:
Anyone hear anything about these Zombie flies, now being found in CA?
Anyone hear anything about these Zombie flies, now being found in CA?
Yep, they were last seen multiplying at an alarming rate in the Diseases and Pests Forum!
Regards, Barry
Barry's right and they have spread over to the general forum, where Monsanto has propagated them. From there the flies have turned forum members brains into mush. Poor Ace was the first to be Zombified. He will never get that plane off the ground now!!TED
ALABAMA BEE COMPANY-A member of the Sioux Honey association -*Sweetening a golden tommorrow*
Now for a more serious note...Back in the late ninties, USDA scientist released with good intentions the Phorid fly in the effort to control fireants. The fly does the same thing to the ants as the flies in California do to bees, eats their brains out. What is interesting that within one year after that release of the the Phorid flies in the Montgomery, Alabama area, 50% of ALL commercial colonies collapsed and died out. We could never get the USDA researcher to admit that the fly had crossed over to another species-the honeybee. But it is strange that fireants nest deep in the ground during the winter months and the fly had to overwinter somewhere, possible in beehives. Biologically, there is not much difference in an ant and a honeybee. Since then, there is only one commercial operation left in the state of Alabama. All the others literally died out. Makes you wonder if USDA in its intent to rid the Southern United States of a major pest, did not accidentally shoot commercial beekeeping in the foot. That dieoff, years ago is considered the first report of the CCD outbreak in the United States. I lost 50% of my bees during that time. TED
ALABAMA BEE COMPANY-A member of the Sioux Honey association -*Sweetening a golden tommorrow*
Why am I not surprised? Thanks Ted. I am sorry for all of our losses.
Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, flood and strange weather. The bees are still alive.
I have noticed a few flies hanging around the outside of my hive. I wondered what they were up to. Maybe now I know.
This is just what the almond growers don't want to hear, another reason for not sending bee to California.
"Success is all about attitude"
California Almond Pollination Services, Inc.
A researcher checked my hives every month last season. They aren't that big of an issue.
Its a parasitic fly that usually lays its egg in wasps, it either crossed over to bees, or its been doing it a long time but no one knew.
So far it doesn't sound like anything to get alarmed about.
I'll bet it's been a problem since CCD became common, only now we know the source. We could always get little armored abdominal vests for the bees.
Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, flood and strange weather. The bees are still alive.
Yes. I probably shoudn't Post after 10hrs of driving.
Mark Berninghausen
I actually had somebody ask me if I have had zombie fly problems today. I'm used to being asked unusual bee questions a lot, but i must admit I had absolutely no idea what in the world they were talking about until I got on beesource tonight.
Rob Renneker
I should have, Jim! Don't tell my boys to look for zombie flies, they will be outside with a mason jar and a net tearing apart my hives.
Rob Renneker
Sounds like my grandson! Anything that involves a net and bugs or fish or creepy-crawlies...
Stuck in Texas. Learning Permaculture in drought, flood and strange weather. The bees are still alive.
here is a thread from a year ago
made me worry then, still do.
The genus that attacks ants is Pseudacteon, the genus that attacks bees and wasps is apparently Apocephalus. These flies tend to be very host specific so presumably the fire ant specific ones should not be a problem for bees. It would be interesting to know what species of phorids were screened in the labs while surveying for an ant biological control agent. What was brought in and did any escape? There is a thread in the diseases and pest forum.
John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com


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Hello all - I volunteer at a local childrens museum and about a month ago we installed an observation bee hive for display. Shortly after the Queen left the hive followed by many of the bees. We were told it was because the hive was too cold. It is a 2 panel hive ( approx 2ft wide by 3ft high ) that is indoors connected to the outside by a pvc tube. We put a lamp in a small area above the hive but now the bees all congergate at the top of the hive. The hive is displayed in a hollowed out section of a fabracated tree made from plaster and concrete. We have about 6 - 8 inches to work with on the sides, around the edges and on top.
My Question is does any have any suggestions on how to keep the hive warm ? Are there small heaters that can 'pump' warm air into the hive ? Heat lamps that will warm the hive but not melt the plexiglass observation front ? Any advice would be appreciated.


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This is what posh restaurants all over the world serve as a main dish. It is the fancy name for a Gutbuster but as this doesn't sound very formal, restaurants have changed the name in order to attract a wider audience.
"One would like to order a "Serendipen" please and thank you"
by Liam Thom March 04, 2009


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There's a line between perfectly wearable and disastrously dull, and it's a fine one. Collections that pride themselves on supplying to the world yet another batch of quality basics often slip into the latter, and in a world where consumers are spoilt for choice a little something extra is often what's needed to pull us over the line. It may not be as obvious from Australian label Bul's look book images as it is in real life, but it's a label that nails that fine line every time. Designer Virginia Martin is so adept at pinning down the easy yet refined aesthetic that, if it's an aesthetic that appeals to you, you'll want to walk out of the store with every single piece.
Each of Bul's collections is inspired by a coastline somewhere in the world. Autumn / winter 2012 – which you'll currently find on bul's shelves – found inspiration in the cool breezes and hazy mists that drift across the rocky coast of Cornwall.
The question is, what does a coastline look like when manifested into clothing? Don't expect any prints of eerie lighthouses or waves crashing across rocks. Martin doesn't work in such literal ways. Instead she captures a mood; it's nature and temperature and the warmth of cosy organic fabrics. Look out for oatmeal knits and navy brocades that tell tales of understated seaside castles of the Cornwall coast.
For more of the Bul autumn / winter 2012 collection click on the thumbnails to browse their latest look book.
Bul can be found in Melbourne's Curtain House on Swanston Street, or at 241 Brunswick St, Fitzroy.


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forum: Food & Drink
#41 Fri 10 Nov 06 11:44am
Dave Barker
- Forum champ Occupation Chef
- From At the stove...
- Member since Tue 29 Jun 04
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
All that talk of Christmas booze reminds me of a great recipie for Northern Italian Mulled wine that another chef friend told me about...
This Italian mulled wine is a standard part of winter festivals in northern Italy and is traditionally served with panettone.
3 bottles Italian red wine (about 2.25 litres)
zest of 3 lemons
3 cinnamon sticks
3 whole cloves
1 cup sugar
Pour the wine in a large pot.
Add the lemon zest cinnamon, whole cloves, and the sugar.
Heat until it just begins to simmer, but don't boil.
Strain and serve in ceramic cups.
Dave B
Last edited by DB27 (Fri 10 Nov 06 11:45am)
#42 Fri 10 Nov 06 4:43pm
- Forum champ
- Member since Fri 11 Feb 05
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
Mmm, this is a fab thread. I made the flavoured butters from Jamie's CD last year- they were delicious.
I'm making a list of edible Xmas presents at the mo- well, edible and drinkable! maybe I ought to go for some of Anna's vodka!
#43 Fri 10 Nov 06 6:46pm
- Forum champ Occupation Duty Free Lancome and Fragrance sales
- From Greater Vancouver
- Member since Mon 23 Oct 06
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
I take carrots/parsnips/turnip and cube them all in somewhat the same size. I cook them altogether in chicken stock in order, parsnips being the quickest to cook.. when they are just done they are put in a large bowl and set aside. Take the reserved stock and and reduce to a syrup. When reduced enough to be able to toss all the veggies add a couple of lumps of unsalted butter. Put all the veggies back into the hot syrup and toss gently with italian parsley s&p as needed. Simple and doesnt compete with some other stronger flavored dishes you may serve.
#44 Fri 10 Nov 06 6:47pm
- Forum champ
- From Switzerland
- Member since Fri 15 Apr 05
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
In Switzerland we always used this reasonably traditional mulled wine recipe:
2 bottles (1.5l) good red wine (Swiss one if you can get it! Merlot's good too)
50ml brandy or cognac
juice and pared zest of 1 or 2 oranges
2 apples, cut into chunks
the flesh of the oranges, cut into bits
a handful or so raisins
a teaspoonful of cloves
cinnamon sticks (2 or 3)
Heat the wine and add the spices. Don't ever let it boil! You'll burn off the alcohol. Add the fruit and heat through. Just before serving, splash in the brandy.
#45 Fri 10 Nov 06 10:40pm
Dave Barker
- Forum champ Occupation Chef
- From At the stove...
- Member since Tue 29 Jun 04
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
Hi guys,
It's great that you guys are getting as excited about the food at Christmas time as I am, glad that you are enjoying the thread... and you guys are putting some great recipies and ideas on here too, thanks for that.
Keep them comming!!! it's great to share ideas and to compare different peoples traditional dishes.As well as finding new, fresh ideas for us all to try...
That is one reason why I love the community here on the forums...
All the best guys
Last edited by DB27 (Fri 10 Nov 06 10:47pm)
#46 Sat 11 Nov 06 2:10am
- Forum champ Occupation Duty Free Lancome and Fragrance sales
- From Greater Vancouver
- Member since Mon 23 Oct 06
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
I would love to buy a nice ham this Christmas but am confused with shank end/smoked/butt end/spiral, etc. I like to boil my ham so it's not too salty and like to be able to score the tops and add a nice paste of some sort. And is a ham not called a ham unless it's cooked first? So if you offer me advise I would be grateful! Thank you! I just want a nice juicy ham that tastes great and isn't dry. Oh, and besides the usual applesauce, what can you recommend to go with the ham?
#47 Sat 11 Nov 06 1:08pm
- Forum champ
- From Switzerland
- Member since Fri 15 Apr 05
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
I did a ham last year alongside the turkey, it was really quite easy. Never did it before, so went to the butcher and asked for a gammon (uncooked ham) to feed 12, then poached it in cider with some spices, and finally roasted it briefly to glaze it. The glaze I used was half mustard, half honey with some pepper. I scored the top too and in a twee manner added a clove in each diamond. Because I served it alongside all the other usual suspects (turkey, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower cheese - had to be done -, cranberry sauce, gravy, roast potatoes, carrots roasted in honey, parsnips) I didn't worry too much about a certain type of sauce for the ham.
#48 Sat 11 Nov 06 5:32pm
- Forum champ
- From Scotland
- Member since Wed 06 Apr 05
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
My family love a good parsley sauce to go with ham:
2oz butter (or margarine)
2oz flour (or gram flour)
1 pint milk (or unsweetened soya milk)
salt & pepper
4 - 5 tbspns chopped fresh parsley
Melt the butter in a pan, turn down the heat and add the flour. Cook until the mixture is sandy in texture and leaves the sides of the pan clean. Slowly add the milk bit by bit, stirring continuously, until your preferred consistency is reached. Season to taste. Just before serving, add the parsley and stir well.
#49 Sat 11 Nov 06 6:50pm
- Forum champ
- Member since Fri 11 Feb 05
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
My fave ham is the ham in Cherry Coke from Nigella's Feast. Sounds vile, tastes fab.
#50 Sat 11 Nov 06 8:59pm
- Member
- From Shanghai ;-)
- Member since Thu 07 Apr 05
Re: Dave Barkers Christmas Kitchen...
Thank you so much!
I think I have to give your mulled wine recipe a try too...We drink something called Gloegg in Norway which is pretty much the same stuff.But we tend to buy it already made in the supermarket and then just add some wine.
Last year I bought it from Ikea..


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Our training program, our drafts, our FA choices should be geared for SPEED this year. With the onset of the new fatster mobile QB's coming in to the league, or Defense ( particularly our LB corp ) have shown to be too slow in the persuit. Our traininers should be adjusting from BULKING UP to getting leaner and meaner, and faster on all phases. ST especially. We need faster coverage downfield and keep the field LONG for the opponent Offense.
Even our O-Line could use a little less Meat and more Feet, in run blocking and fending off the faster rush from opposing D. Not saying thin out and get weaker..just need to get faster. I watched too many games last year where it looked like we were stuck in 1st gear while the opponent was already in 3rd. We already have a fast RB in Wilson, and his speed has made a HUGE difference, compared to the led foot power running we have become accustomed to by our backs.
Our LB's get burned everytime and sem to give up 6-7 yeards at least, in the run-option. Our D-Line could ude a little more agility too.
We can still be BEEFED in the center, but the outside, we need a quicker surge.


text: OK I will have to think on that one for my implementation. Thanks again for your time and support. I'll probably post something tonight on what I learn. Once I figure out my hardware I will need to decide on a battery or charger since my hives are in my back yard.


text:
Hi all,
I was looking at building an observation hive and have had poor luck finding many pictures of the homemade ones.. I've read about ideas and places to buy them, but what I'd really like to see is some detailed (maybe opening and closing them) pictures of handy man observation hives.
Please feel free to share.
I'll continue to scour the net as well.


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It's such a treat to read about your travels and see your amazing pictures. Enjoy!
Acclimatisation Trekking and Otavalo
Trip Start Oct 29, 2011
48Trip End Jun 01, 2012
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The first day we headed north along the Pan American Highway, crossing the equator to Cuicocha Lake. This is a volcanic caldera (a depression in the ground created by the collapse of land after a volcanic eruption) is about 3km and it was formed only 3100 years ago by a massive volcanic eruption. It is situated at the foot of the Cocatchi Volcano. The aim of the day was that we could have day's trekking at between 3000m and 3500m and to start to prepare ourselves for what was to come.
And prepare it did !! Myself and Lesley got a bit of a shock on the first day. The rest of the group were bounding ahead and we were getting a little bit scared by it all, thinking we were with a group of olympic athletes and that we wouldn't even make it out of the starting blocks
So then on the Tuesday we began our acclimatisation preparation proper by heading off on a 4 day trek which was to include camping. The first day was billed as a 3-4 hour walk along a road/track up the village of San Francisco (big bridge, hilly). So all was going fine until Diego our guide decided to take us on a more scenic route and off-road. We ended up heading through muddy jungle sections, which tested most of us quite a lot, but actually proved brilliant for group moral and general hilarity. It was like one of the challenges out of 'I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here'. However, I was quite pleased as my fitness did seem to be holding out and I was very impressed by the grip on the new walking boots.
Wednesday and Day 2 of the trek – this was billled as tougher (could it get any tougher than the day before). The path headed out of San Franscisco and headed uphill through beautiful, moss-clad polylepis mountain forests (of course I am lifting this from the trip notes – like I would know what polylepis means – can hardly say it !). We then hit the paramo ! The actual definiton from the t'internet says 'P�ramo (from the Spanish word for "desolate territory") is a Neotropical ecosystem
Thursday and Day 4 of the trek abd yes we were going to the top of Mount Yanaurco. It was billed in the trip notes as 'we pass very interesting sections with unique high vegetation'. This literally translated meant – we are going straight uphill, not a path and through nightmare vegetation like that nasty paramo stuff. 'The ascent is relatively easy but rather steep with a little scrambling near the top' – take a look at the photo's – it wasn't light, it was very steep and it certainly wasn't easy !! However, when we reached the summit at 4545m there was a flat section and stunning views. Was actually quite impressed with myself at this point because I did seem to be holding my own in the group and certainly wasn't too near the back. My favourite moment was when Lesley, who was just in front of me turned around and said 'We're doing this aren't we Liz !!' and yes we were !! (Finally I was!) Even better was the walk down because I finally learnt how to walk downhill properly (what don't you just put one foot in front of the other?). The lovely Dr Anne was behind me and gave me instructions on how to place your foot (pressure on the ball of the foot) and how to use your poles (so it's not like I'm skiing then?) – it was an absolute revelation
Friday and Day 5 of the trek – this was a hard slog back down the from the Cucharo crater, through forests and farmland back to the hot springs at Chachimbiro and onto the hacienda. We had to come down 1500m and I was tired and just generally having an 'it's sucks to be me day'. It seemed to go on forever and even when we got to the hot springs most of us girls decided not to go in (we'd been without a shower for 4 days !! – go figure).
The final part (and a very important element I must add) was the days shopping in Otavalo. This was integral element of the acclimatisation programme. If nothing else we had chance to do a pick of shopping, stock up on the suncream and get the laundry done. Oh and really start to panic about the next day !


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CEA Report: Built-in Home Technology Installations on the Rise
Consumer Electronics Association's new Builder Technology Market Study reveals that installations of almost every home technology increased or held constant from 2012 to 2013.
By SSI Staff · May 8, 2014
ARLINGTON, Va. — Built-in home technologies, such as home automation, monitored security and energy management solutions are expected to reach $2.3 billion in revenue in 2014, according to a study released by the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA).
The "12th Annual State of the Builder Technology Market Study" reveals that installations of almost every home technology increased or held constant from 2012 to 2013, indicating the built-in home technology market has a strong, stable foothold in the United States.
According to the survey, structured wiring was the most common technology installed in 2013 at 78% , an 8% increase from 2012. Monitored security followed at 47%, up 3%, while home theaters came in at 32%, a 5% increase compared to 2012.
Additionally, multi-room audio (21%), energy management (13%) and home automation (12%) all saw increases.
A new addition to this year's study included stand-alone video surveillance systems (including pre-wire),which were installed in 8% of new homes in 2013.
As the U.S. housing market continues to recover, the National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) predicts there will be 1.3 million new home starts in 2014. In parallel with the housing recovery, built-in home technologies are expected to reach $2.3 billion in revenue in 2014, according to CEA's U.S. Consumer Electronics Sales and Forecast report.
"The market for built-in home technologies and the housing market in general are well on the road to recovery," says Chris Ely, senior manager of industry analysis, CEA. "Several home technologies have made the transition from luxuries to standard options in the marketplace, indicating that technology remains crucial to new home construction, even as the tide of do-it-yourself solutions rises."
In 2013, 93% of new homes were equipped with broadband cable, an increase of 37% from 2007. With greater broadband access, penetration of other home technology features such as home offices (51%) have grown as a result, increasing by 13% since 2007.
Additionally, three in five builders (63%) say home technologies are more important to their overall marketing efforts than they were two years ago, further indicating growing consumer demand. Among builders, the importance of marketing home technologies is highest for townhomes (95%) and luxury homes (94%).


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When two people of the same gender have sex. The equivalent of 'getting laid' for heterosexual peoples. This is a much easier way of saying homosexual/lesbian relations and a lot more eloquent than "man/lesbian sex".
Edward: "Dude, I totally was Mark's wingman at a gay bar last night!" Anthony: "Really? Man that would've been new!" Edward: "Yeah we were there all night, he really wanted to get glayd!" Mark: "Oh you two.."
by Pixel Thousand June 08, 2009


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Internet erasing classroom boundaries
Teachers and other school employees across the country are discovering — often the hard way — that they can get into hot water for what they say and post on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, even when those comments are made on their own time, on their personal pages and not intended for the public.
At the same time, school districts are grappling with how to set appropriate boundaries in an age when using social networking sites is almost second nature to teachers and students.
It's a relatively new frontier in which school administrators must balance employees' rights to free speech against the desire to create safe learning environments, while simultaneously weighing the potential educational costs if those policies are too restrictive.
Some teachers and their advocates have argued that the few headline-grabbing missteps are anomalies, and common sense and good judgment are what's needed.
"I think we need to trust our teachers," said Eric Sheninger, the principal of New Milford High School, himself a prolific Twitter user and blogger, who thinks that teachers should not "friend" their students on their personal Facebook pages as a protection for both teachers and the students.
"I think that a model policy should not be too restrictive," he said. "It should give general guidelines about how and why social media should be used and maybe give a few bullet points on best practices that are not demeaning … simple things like know your role within the community; understand that you have a digital footprint, so once you post something, it's online; refrain from personal interactions [with students] because that's where the line sort of gets blurred a little bit. If you have conversations focused on teaching and learning, there is no problem."
There are no definitive statistics on the number of school districts that have adopted policies or guidelines on using social networking sites, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the numbers are increasing and will continue to grow as more applications are developed, said Ann Lee Flynn, the director of education technology and state association services at the National School Boards Association.
"Obviously with the growth of social media, it is a new policy area that's being addressed," she said.
Last year, New York City, the nation's largest school district, barred teachers and Department of Education employees from friending students on their personal Facebook pages. The same is true for Park Ridge and Fort Lee. In Wayne and Ridgewood, teachers are discouraged from fraternizing with students online. And Teaneck teachers and employees are reminded that they can be fired for inappropriate behavior on the Internet.
New Milford, Clifton, Paterson, Fort Lee, the Northern Valley Regional High School District in northeastern Bergen County and Trenton also have similar policies or provide similar instructions to their teachers at annual orientations.
Mike Yaple, a spokesman for the state School Boards Association, said two concurrent cultural changes prompted the organization to develop a model policy in 2009: changing demographics in the school districts' workforce and increasing reports nationwide of inappropriate relationships between teachers and students, often facilitated by social networking, text messaging and other forms of electronic communications.
"The generation of teachers that is entering the workforce is the first generation of teachers that grew up on social media," he said. "They were raised on Myspace, Facebook and Twitter. They may not be aware of what the professional boundaries are when it comes to social media."
Two cases stand out
Barbara Morgan, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Education, said that the department does not track the number of teachers or employees who have been terminated or disciplined as a result of inappropriate postings on social media sites.
At least two public school teachers made national headlines when what they said on Facebook became public, however.
One, Jennifer O'Brien, a Paterson elementary school teacher, was fired after she referred to her students as "future criminals" in a posting on Facebook in 2011. Another, Union Township High School teacher Vicki Knox, was suspended with pay after she posted a comment on a Facebook page referring to homosexuality as a "sin."
In New York City, where the Office of the Special Commissioner for Investigations started actively tracking complaints related to social media in 2012, some 60 complaints of allegations regarding inappropriate use of social media by Department of Education employees were received last year, according to the office.
In addition to New York City, districts in Ohio, Georgia and Missouri have adopted guidelines on the use of social networking sites, which often includes rules for other forms of electronic communications, including texting and emailing students.
While public employees have free speech rights under the First Amendment, courts have held that they can be fired for what they say on their own time.
Ed Barocas, the legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union of New Jersey, said employers and employees should keep in mind whether the comments made on social media would disrupt the employees' ability to perform their duties successfully.
"If what they are saying does not actually disrupt their ability to do their job, then their free speech rights should be protected," Barocas said.
In the Paterson case, an administrative law judge called O'Brien's comments "inexcusable" and ruled that she could be fired. Judge Ellen Bass rejected O'Brien's contention that her comments were constitutionally protected.
"In a public school setting, thoughtless words can destroy the partnership between home and school that is essential to the mission of the schools," according to the initial November 2011 ruling.
Nancy Oxfeld, O'Brien's attorney, said she was disappointed with a decision this month that affirmed the earlier finding and was considering appealing to the state Supreme Court.
"We think that the decision is based on a complete misstatement of the facts that actually occurred," Oxfeld said, declining to comment on the First Amendment aspect of the case.
Used in schools
Many New Jersey district officials said that they updated their policies because they were increasingly incorporating those tools in schools and they wanted to clarify for their staffs what was acceptable behavior and what would not be tolerated.
Christopher Nagy, the Northern Valley Regional High School District superintendent, who served on the state Board of Examiners, which issues licenses for public school teachers and can revoke those certifications, said he had the opportunity to see firsthand the difficulties that teachers would often find themselves in when using social media.
"It's good professional practice" to discourage communication between staff and students on social media sites, he said.
Many of the policies include common sense advice: that teachers and other employees should not post materials that promote or incite violence or defame students, their families and the district, confidential information about the district or students or anything that is sexually explicit in nature.
Others bar teachers from sending emails directly to students without permission from the district.
Raymond Gonzalez, the Wayne school superintendent, said the district policy, adopted last year, is meant to remind employees to remain "mindful when they are engaging in any activity online because, as we all know, whatever you do in cyberspace, stays in cyberspace forever."
The policy reminds teachers that they are held to a higher standard than the general public and that the district may conduct periodic Internet searches to find out whether anyone has violated the guidelines.
One of the limitations that districts face is how to manage a medium that is constantly evolving.
"We think there are yet-to-be-discovered social media out there that we'll always have to look at these policies," Ridgewood Superintendent Daniel Fishbein said. "I don't even think Instagram was around when we did this."
"It is always going to be a moving target," he added.
Email: email@example.com


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Oh ! Guys you'll be sorry to be coming home after all those wonderful places, wouldn't it be great to just travel around the world stopping where ever you wanted.
What a dream opportunity you have all had with great memories for the rest of your life. well done
Love Liz & Roy xxx:0) :)
Very sandy at Pismo beach
Trip Start May 31, 2012
112Trip End Aug 24, 2012
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Other than the ocean, the beach and the sun the main attraction for us was another frozen yogurt shop. I think we are addicted, especially since this one had the excitement of serving your own frozen yogurt and self serving scoops of toppings. Number one on my list is to find a local fro-yo when I get home!!
So enjoy the photos of the sandy babies, sandy auntys and sandy us xxx


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A researcher set out to see the differences between those who watch porn and those who don't but hit one major roadblock: he couldn't find one person who doesn't watch pornography.
Do you know anyone who has never watched porn? If so, there's a researcher who wants to hear from you! A professor in Montreal, Quebec is back at the drawing board after his search for male participants who have never watched porn went unanswered. Initially the study was going to focus on the differences between men who had watched "sexually explicit material" as opposed to those who had not, but since they couldn't find one participant who was porn free, they were left with no other choice but to nix the study and change it to a study of men's porn habits.
"The objective of my work is to observe the impact of pornography on the sexuality of men, and how it shapes their perception of men and women," Simon Louis Lajeunesse told reporters. "Pornography hasn't changed their perception of women or their relationship which they all want as harmonious and fulfilling as possible."
Researchers found that single men spend about 40 minutes watching porn three times a week while men in committed relationships watched on average 20 minutes, one to two times a week.
"Those who could not live out their fantasy in real life with their partner simply set aside the fantasy," said Lajeunesse. "The fantasy is broken in the real world and men don't want their partner to look like a porn star."


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A couple of weeks ago I mentioned to some colleagues here at The Field Museum that I wanted to get some sizable snails or slugs for an upcoming presentation ("Meet a Scientist"). Margaret Thayer, Curator of Insects, replied, "I saw a bunch of fairly large slugs on my porch the other day. Shall I bring you some?" I gladly accepted the offer, assuming that she would bring one of the several introduced slug species that have long been known to live in Chicago and the suburbs. When Margaret delivered the slugs I was surprised. Sure, this was an introduced slug, but none of the expected ones. The family it belongs to (Milacidae) is easily recognizable and not native to the Americas. I knew immediately that this was a new record at least for Illinois where no members of this family had been found before. To figure out the species is trickier, since many of these slugs look rather similar externally and, in addition, display a fair amount of intraspecific variation. One has to dissect mature specimens and analyze their hermaphroditic reproductive organs to make a reliable identification. Luckily Margaret's specimens turned out to be mature. The result of the dissection was another surprise: this was not one of the several Milacidae species known to have been widely introduced to places, including the U.S., outside their original European distribution areas but a species that had never before been recorded in the Americas.
Naturally this sparked my interest. Who knows what else leaves its slime tracks around Chicagoland?
Therefore, Field Museum employees, volunteers, associates, friends:
If you have a yard, garden, compost heap or merely a planter on the balcony there is a good chance you share that space with slugs who like your lettuce and petunias at least as much as you do.
But don't just cut the critters through with your garden shears or kill them with slug killer from the garden center — at least not all of them. Put a few of them in a clean jar with a tight lid. You may add a moistened (but not dripping wet) piece of paper towel. Put the jar in the veggie crisper of your fridge until you come to the museum (with the slugs, of course).
Then email me at firstname.lastname@example.com or call me at extension x7577 and I'll take the slimy critters off your hands.
!!!!!!!!! Please note: I will be out of town from Aug. 3 to Aug. 25. Consequently, slug deliveries can take place until Aug. 2 or after my return !!!!!!!!
I will identify the slugs and voucher specimens will be deposited in the Field Museum's Mollusk Collection. If enough of you from around the city and the suburbs participate, our little ad-hoc slug survey could render interesting results.
Go gett'em and thanks in advance for your help!