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Home › Forums › Campfire › Editor's Roundtable › The Wonderland Trail
Oct 22, 2013 at 6:49 pm #1309042
Maia JordanBPL Member
@maiaLocale: Rocky Mountains
Companion forum thread to:Oct 22, 2013 at 8:01 pm #2036741
Ken T.BPL Member
I should have done that hike while living in WA.Oct 23, 2013 at 9:53 am #2036942
David NeumannBPL Member
@idahomtmanLocale: Northern Idaho
I was fortunate to thru-hike the Wonderland in 2009. I took five days and I have to agree that it is quite simply stunning in every way and definitely worth the effort. Having done it once, I have a better idea of the "best" campsites but there really aren't any bad campsites. Go light but bring rain gear. Great pictures.Oct 23, 2013 at 10:08 am #2036951
Joshua WelbaumMember
@jshwelbaumLocale: Northwest
I did this last year and got nothing but sunshine… Tried again this year and had 30 minutes of it… Come ready for serious rain, and an amazing adventure. One of the best places.Oct 23, 2013 at 11:43 am #2037003
Dale WambaughBPL Member
@dwambaughLocale: Pacific Northwest
Nice report. We had a great day hike from Lake Mowich to the Tolmie Peak lookout in early September (http://www.wta.org/go-hiking/hikes/tolmie-peak). In fact, my current avatar was taken from the lookout. There are some snowshoe trips possible as a winter option too: http://www.wta.org/go-hiking/seasonal-hikes/hp/go-hiking/hikes/mowich-lake
The reservation system for the WT can be complex, but it keeps the traffic down and improves the experience. It is possible to get walk-up permits, but it is a dice roll. Also, keep in mind that sections of the trail are often snowbound into July.Oct 23, 2013 at 4:41 pm #2037132
I've heard that the rangers will stash your food at various campsites – true, not true?Oct 23, 2013 at 5:35 pm #2037147
Mike MBPL Member
@mtwardenLocale: Montana
it's on my bucket list for either a two or three day run/hike- looks absolutely gorgeous!Oct 23, 2013 at 6:11 pm #2037156
Elliott WolinBPL Member
@ewolinLocale: Hampton Roads, Virginia
Some years back you could mail (USPS) food boxes to some of the ranger stations near the trail. I recall we mailed large boxes (there were five of us) to Mowich and Longmire (we started at White River. I imagine you still can. I don't think the rangers will carry food to a backcountry campsite, though.
We took 13 nights to do the trail and enjoyed every last minute, so far it has been the highlight of our backpacking life.
So what that we had a five mile day once and rarely hiked more than 8 or 9 miles (lots of elevation gain/loss, so that's harder than you might think). This gave us lots of time to enjoy the spectacular scenery, lounge at our campsites, write in journals, go birdwatching, take over 1000 photographs, cook fancier meals, eat leisurely, contemplate our navels, whatever.Oct 23, 2013 at 8:21 pm #2037219
The food cache sites are Longmire, Mowich Lake, Sunrise Visitor Center, and White River Ranger Station.
From the horse's mouth: http://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/caching-food-and-fuel.htm
You have to catch Longmire when it's open so make sure you time it right if you pick up your food there.
There's a food box at Mowich Lake. The box fills up quick and they don't like to drop your bucket off there until right before you are supposed to pick it up. The Carbon River Ranger Station is responsible for this food box so make sure you stay in constant contact with them to let them know when you intend to pick it up. It should be marked on your bucket when you mail it so this is more directed at those who have to reschedule their hike (like I did) or mail it in anticipation of getting a walk up permit.
Sunrise is a popular food cache because they have a cafeteria and it's a great place to grab a burger. The only problem is that like Mowich, the box fills up quick so they keep the overflow in the ranger's office which is below the snack bar. I won't bore you with the details but I had to reschedule my hike. Even though I called them in advance and the rangers at Longmire assured me that my food bucket would be available in the box, it wasn't. The ranger's office is only used on a as needed basis and was empty when I tried to retrieve my bucket. There was plenty of food in the hungry hikers box if I would have needed it. I was fortunate that there was a ranger making an unscheduled stop who was able to get my bucket.
White River campground is a couple miles downhill from Sunrise. They have a staffed ranger station there so there's a really good chance that you can talk to NPS staff if you don't find your bucket in the food box. I'm going to use this for my cache site next year instead of Sunrise.Oct 23, 2013 at 8:39 pm #2037229
I always carry a map even though this trail is well marked. For like minded individuals….
The two more popular maps I found for the Wonderland was the Nat Geo and Green Trails.
I used the Green Trails map on my first section hike and found that there were some major data errors on the map. Mostly it was point to point mileage which you can figure out the mistake by measuring it yourself. The errors we found were off by a few miles so if you choose to use this map, ignore the mileage data on it. I've also heard that the grid coordinates on this map are marked incorrectly but I can't confirm this as I didn't make any comparisons between the Green Trails map and Caltopo or a GPS. This is obviously a problem for SAR but if you don't need to plot a coordinate, and I don't know why you would, the map is otherwise fine.
I used the 1:55k Nat Geo map on my second section hike of the Wonderland. All of the rangers I met use it and it worked fine for me. I downloaded the Caltopo map for pretty much all of Rainier NP into Gaia. Whenever I needed more detail than was on the map, I would zoom in on my phone on the area in question.
Truth be told, I don't recommend forgoing a map on general principle but if you get lost on the Wonderland…. well Darwin Award comes to mind. Frequent map checks are just something I do not unlike a nervous twitch.
Edit to add: The rangers provided me with a copy of the Wonderland Trail's elevation profile. If you buy Asar's book Hiking the Wonderland Trail (discussed in another response below), you can copy it from the book as well on the off chance the rangers don't have a copy available when you start your hike.Oct 23, 2013 at 9:32 pm #2037252
I recommend the following books and videos for those who like to research their hikes.
Hiking the Wonderland Trail
Author: Tami Asars
Published 2012
Chapter 1 covers weather conditions, bears, rodents, etc.
Chapter 2 covers permits, food/fuel caching, and other topics like LNT that most BPLers should be knowledgable of
Chapter 3 discusses start points and alternate routes
The next four chapters will explain trail conditions as if you are starting at Longmire and hiking in a clockwise direction
Chapter 4 west side
Chapter 5 north side
Chapter 6 east side
Chapter 7 south side
Chapter 8 covers section hiking the Wonderland and hiking the northern and eastside loops.
Appendixes covers possible itineraries, camp to camp elevation gains and losses (carried a copy with me on the trail), camps, and resources.
Discovering the Wonders of the Wonderland Trail
Author: Bette Filley
Published 1998
There's a lot of overlap between both of these books but I'd recommend reading both of them. Discovering the Wonders of the Wonderland Trail has some nice information about the variety of volcanic ash and soil you will encounter and a cliffs notes rundown on the geology surrounding Rainier.
Willis Wall Media (aka Steve Burgess)
URL: http://www.williswall.com/filming-the-trail/
Steve Burgess is not only a Gossamer Gear Trail Ambassador, a Wonderland Trail subject matter expert, but he is a BPL member as well. The quality of his videos are excellent and well worth the low price.
.Oct 24, 2013 at 6:18 am #2037309
Mike MBPL Member
@mtwardenLocale: Montana
^ thanks for the resources!Oct 24, 2013 at 10:13 pm #2037663
Edward JursekBPL Member
@nedjursekgmail-comLocale: Pacific Northwest
I did the Wonderland Trail in mid-September of this year with a couple of fellow BPLers. We did it in 6 days, starting at Mowich Lake and caching food at Longmire and White River. The food caching went smoothly and was awesome, my pack never topped 15 pounds including consumables and a liter of water. A good thing too, it was pretty physically demanding. We had warm sunny weather, rain, hail, and snow, with temps from the upper 70's to the 20's. The gear, wisdom and tips I have picked up here at BPL really helped make it a safe and comfortable experience. My fellow BPL partners were inspirational, supportive and helpful.Oct 27, 2013 at 8:21 pm #2038506
Coin PageBPL Member
@page0018Locale: Southeastern USA
David and all.
You mentioned having "a better idea of the 'best' campsites" now that you've done it once. Would you be willing to share your thoughts on the "best" campsites on the Wonderland Trail?
I'm hoping to hike the Wonderland Trail with my son next summer. Where would you have liked to have a layover day? Do any of the campsites have trees to pitch a rain tarp with?
Ian, thanks for the resource recommendations. I'll get them
ThanksOct 27, 2013 at 8:37 pm #2038510
jeffrey armbrusterBPL Member
@bookLocale: Northern California
Good campsites: Mystic Lake; but here's the deal. You can go just past the lake and camp on a ridge overlooking a glacier…it's truly spectacular, fronting the mountain. The only thing is, there's a lot of rock/icefall going on. It's not dangerous at all, but the sound is a bit unsettling. I didn't camp there myself but wish that I had after seeing the site. It's limited and sort of kept under wraps; you might have to ask about it.Oct 27, 2013 at 8:51 pm #2038513
Summerland and Indian Bar are pretty awesome but I didn't camp there.
Devils Dream is pretty notorious for mosquitos so I'd pass on this one if you could; it was raining pretty hard when we hiked through there so I didn't have to deal with them. Campsites are pretty much on the trail.
Some people pooh pooh N. Puyallup but I thought it was nice. My only gripe is that the privies are on the other side of the river and about a 5+ minute walk. Not a big deal but there were TP flowers in the woods not too far from the individual campsites.
Klaptche Park looked nice from what I could see of it as we hiked through. Visibility was poor but I suspect that there are great views when there are blue skies.
Nickel Creek is fine but nothing special.
White River is also a car campground. Porcelain toilets and potable water from the spigot is a nice treat.Oct 28, 2013 at 9:37 am #2038634
"Do any of the campsites have trees to pitch a rain tarp with?"
I've only camped at 5 of the campsites and walked through a few others. Trees were plentiful and I doubt you'd have problems hanging a tarp.
I keep hearing rumors that you aren't supposed to tie anything to a tree at Rainier NP (which is why I didn't go the hammock route) but I saw people tying tarps to trees; I've yet to see an official policy on this.Oct 29, 2013 at 3:30 pm #2039168
Coin PageBPL Member
@page0018Locale: Southeastern USA
Thanks for the feedback and advice.Oct 29, 2013 at 4:48 pm #2039196
Jim ColtenBPL Member
@jcoltenLocale: MN
Are there any public transportation options available between seatac and the park?Oct 29, 2013 at 5:40 pm #2039224
Mary DBPL Member
@hikinggrannyLocale: Gateway to Columbia River Gorge
"Are there any public transportation options available between seatac and the park?"
You fly into Seatac Airport and rent a car. As with most US national parks, there is no public transport to the park. Gray Line runs tours to the park but they no longer accept hikers (per their website). Evidently the tour guests are put off by hiker aroma? :-)
You could check airline shuttles to see if any will take you to Ashford, just outside the park. That might be more expensive than a week's car rental!Oct 31, 2013 at 9:26 pm #2039994
Edward JursekBPL Member
@nedjursekgmail-comLocale: Pacific Northwest
We stayed at Klaptche Park, Paradise River, Indian Bar, Sunrise, and Carbon River. Klaptche Park was very nice and I had nice Mountain views out of my shelter. Indian Bar and Sunrise are also nice. Paradise River was OK, Carbon River sucked. If I could do it over, I would have stayed at Dick Creek instead of Carbon River. They are close and Dick Creek has a great view of the Carbon River Valley.
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forum: Gardening / Growing
Pages: 1 | Home » Gardening / Growing » Salad leaves seeds
#1 Wed 04 Apr 12 12:28pm
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Salad leaves seeds
Last year I bought about 15 packets of JO salad leaves and had salad all summer long, cutting and using each day. I have not been able to find any kind of Jamie Oliver seeds this year in any of the stores - where are they??????????????????????
#2 Wed 04 Apr 12 9:34pm
- Forum super champ Occupation avoiding housework
- From The land of song.
- Member since Tue 04 Oct 05
Re: Salad leaves seeds
welcome to the forum valeriebishop
Have you tried looking in Homebase ? I know that I saw the Jamie Oliver seeds in there last year , the staff there are very helpful and would be able to tell you if they are still going to be stcking them.
and I have just found a link to the seeds on this site ..
http://www.jamieoliver.com/products/hom … wing/seeds
the site says the seeds are avalible exclusivly at homebase and amongst the packets shown on the page are Sweet Leaves � Mixed , so it looks like the seeds are still avalible.
Hope this helps
Pages: 1 | Home » Gardening / Growing » Salad leaves seeds

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Planktonic Ciliate: the mixotroph Laboea strobila
This ciliate 'sequesters' chloroplast from the phytoplankton it eats. The chloroplasts remain active, fixing carbon which is metabolised by the ciliate. For more info- papers by D.K. Stoecker
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John Dolan
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A older member of our club has gotten out of the bee business and has a lot of 10 frame shallows for sale.
I'm about to purchase more woodenware and wasn't sure what to do.
I had wanted to use deeps and mediums but this seems to good to pass up.
The woodenware is in good condition and have purchased deeps and shallows from him previously.
He has:
300- 10 frame Shallows $4/ea
6- ten frame Shallows with frames and new foundation $12/ea
I've got 12 ten frame Deeps ready to go with mostly drawn comb to make 12 hives.
This years plan is for any new hives to have two deeps and then other sized supers on top.
If I buy the used shallows with frames and foundation, I think I'll save about $10 over getting all new stuff.
Thats $60 I could use for other equipment.
I might get 40 empty shallows and keep them around.
What do you all think?


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Conditions were not perfect. Winds were still high, and the lateness of the season meant the ridge would be covered in ice. Clouds were supposed to close in by mid-afternoon, and I was coping with a heavy fatigue, possibly brought on by a minor virus, but most likely due to how hard I've been pushing recently, between mountains and work, and how little recovery I've actually had. Still, last chances loomed in my mind. I sent an e-mail to my ex, Geoff, asking him if he had been up there recently and, if so, what the snow conditions were like. He called back and asked if he could go with me.
Geoff and I have both spent a lot of time in the mountains this summer and fall. I walk, and he runs. He can go to Observation and back in less than five hours. I estimate on my best days it would take me at least eight, more often nine or 10. But there are often days where we'll unknowingly be on parallel treks ... I'll be over on the Grandchild Ridge while he traverses Heinzelman; I'm on Roberts while he's across the way on Juneau. I get the feeling that we're both seeking the same things.
But I was surprised when he said he wanted to come with me. For starters, in his world, I'm slow. No way around it. This is a guy who finds walking to be an exhausting activity, compared to running, because to him running is a much more natural way to move. And secondly, Geoff and I haven't spent any real time alone together since we parted ways in San Fransisco in May. It was going to be awkward, I just knew it. But at the same time, it would be a great chance to test out all of the theories about myself that I had formed during all of my autumn solo treks up high - that I really was ready to move on.
I woke up feeling just slightly on the up-side of awful. I started up the Blackerby Ridge trail at 8:30, knowing Geoff wasn't going to start until 9. I was hoping to beat him to treeline, so he wouldn't see just how much I was struggling on the steep approach. I didn't quite make it. At about 1,800 feet, he came breezing up the trail. I was still clutching the large cup of coffee that I had cradled on several hands-over-head scrambles, and I was breathing hard. "I'm sorry if I become a total drag today," I gasped. "I'm not feeling even close to my normal self, and even that's not very good."
Geoff just shrugged. "Doesn't matter," he said. "I'm not in a hurry."
We launched into stories about our recent runs/hikes, which developed into discussion about what was going on in our day-to-day lives. Geoff had a lot to tell me. He walked quickly. I followed quietly, and listened. I expected the things he said to hurt, but they didn't. What I felt for Geoff was strong compassion, for the way he was exposing himself to me, up there in a place that meant so much to both of us as individuals. What Geoff was looking for was understanding, and what he offered me in return was closure, and it felt real ... and good.
The cold wind that had been sweeping around us along Blackerby Ridge grew to hurricane force as we reached the face of Cairn Peak. It blew so hard that it seemed to whisk all the oxygen away before I could draw any in. I gasped. I couldn't breathe. I dropped to my hands and knees on the ice-coated talus. My face burned but I didn't want to take off my pack to pull out my mask, for fear that the wind would carry the entire thing away. I looked up and saw Geoff, who is substantially more sure-footed than I am, clinging to a rock outcropping and yelling something at me. There was no sound but the roaring wind. I crawled up to him.
"You OK?" he yelled, still difficult to hear even as I crouched right next to him.
"I'm scared," I admitted. "I'm scared of the wind."
"It's like 95 percent mental," he said. "Five percent of it really will trip you up, but most of it is getting past that mental block."
I nodded. In all the years we spent together, that was the most substantial thing Geoff taught me: That most of my "can'ts" are mental. That sometimes I focus too hard and spend too much time in my head. That sometimes I need to shut out everything else and only be in the absolute present. That's something Geoff has always been very good at. No worry for the future, no regret for the past. The wind won't blow you off the mountain if you don't let it. Just grit your teeth and plow forward.
We crested Cairn Peak in a frigid blast. My cheeks burned and my eyes watered. My heart was racing. I felt nauseated to the point where I doubted I'd be able to get any food down. I couldn't remember the last time I felt so weak and vulnerable. I pulled on my face mask and mittens. Geoff was wearing all the clothing he had with him - mostly wind layers, not much to block out the driving cold. He stood facing Lemon Glacier and Observation.
"Wow, it really is pretty close," I said as I wavered against a jet stream of air.
"We're not going to Observation today," Geoff said, which I already knew. We weren't prepared for two to three more hours of that kind of exposure, in that extreme of an environment. I was wheezing, Geoff was coughing, and we were both shivering in the brutal chill. But as I braced against the wind for a few quick gasps of view on top of Cairn Peak, I realized that Geoff and I were both completely exposed, and it was exactly where we needed to be.
There's Observation on the left, Mount Olds on the right - both recent failures of mine. But oddly, I'm completely OK with that. Because Thursday's hike, especially, feels like a success.


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An extra cool chick who is the best friend any girl could have. She loves her friends and family more than life itself. One that would do anything for anyone if she could. Very bold,speaks mind without a doubt. Loves her man. Is a freak.lol Would have you're back without question. Speaks without thinking. Likes to talk,hang out,party just enjoys having fun no matter how it may be! Wonderful mommy and wife and friend ~A woman of many talents =)
by Ms.Salma February 03, 2010


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Oslo Central Station Apartment - high standard
Maksimum Konuk Sayısı6
Yatak odası2
Boyut65 metrekare
Floor No.7(with elevator)
- Aile / Çocuk dostu
- Mutfak
- Çamaşır makinesi / Kurutma makinesi
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Accommodation summary
|Platous gate, 0190 Oslo, Norveç
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A minimalist Scandinavian design runs throughout this apartment with 2 double bedrooms. 2 single beds can be provided for additional guests. The modern kitchen is well-equipped and includes a Nespresso machine which guests can use in the mornings whilst enjoying a view of the Oslo skyline. The bathroom has heated flooring.
The oldest building in Oslo, the medieval Old Aker Church is a 15-minute bus journey away. Home to a large manor house and the Oslo City Museum, Frogner Park is 20 minutes' away using Oslo Metro.
Those looking for something a bit more adventurous can visit the Tryvann Ski Resort, the most used ski resort in Norway.
Ev kurallarıBed linen and towels are provided.
The apartment is professionally cleaned before arrival.
Please notify the host in advance if assistance is needed with luggage storage.
Please treat the apartment as you would your own home.
Smoking is permitted on the balcony.
On check-out the key must be left in the mailbox of the host.
Keep noise to a minimum between 11:00 pm and 8:00 am.
Keep the main door locked at all times.
No outdoor shoes inside the apartment.
A €100 security deposit is required.
|Weekly rate for up to 2 guests
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|> 2 misafir için ücret
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Bu mülk için yapılan yorumlar
Very kind host everything works perfect
Nice apartment we def would return thanks a lot
We enjoyed our stay at this apartment. It is very close to the central train station which is a huge plus. You can also easily walk to the Opera House and bus lines. It was clean and quiet.
Everything went perfect. We didn't have the chance to meet Jan in person but we were in touch the whole time and there weren't any problems. The location of the apartment is very central. You can find a supermarket downstairs which is perfect as eating out in Oslo is quite expensive. I can fully recommend this place.
We had a great stay in Oslo. The flat was very comfortable and everything was uncomplicated.
Perfect stay in a very great appartment!
We reached the whole city without the use of public transportation.
The view from the balcony and the terrace were great. :)
We had a nice stay in Oslo, the flat was clean and convenient for a family with 3 children. Only 10-15 minutes walk to Oslo S and 5 minutes to T-bane Gronland. Jan is very friedly and helped us. We would stay again here, if we will visit Oslo again.
the apartment is very close to the central railway and bus stations and is central to the city. Jan was very welcoming and hospitable -allowing us to check in our baggage well before time to allow us to visit Bigdoy museums on our day of arrival. The apartment is very stylish and very well appointed with all amenities.It comfortably sleeps 4 (2 bedrooms) with extra beds if needed. We enjoyed our stay and will certainly visit again, the next time we are in Oslo.
Phil and Linda Bayliss
Our stay in Jan's apartment was great. It was very easy to comunicate with him. His place was very clean and spacious, even better than we expected! I recommend this host!
Very nice and clean appartment in Grønland district. The flat is on the 7th floor with a small balcony. All the photographs provided give you a good impression of the property and the surrounding area. And really everything is within walking distance!
A recommendation basically for everyone: a group of friends hanging out, a family with kids exploring olso, a couple looking for cultural venues and even the single business traveler that needs a bit more space (or a giant TV).
But Jan, please do something about that key for the entrance door downstairs. That's really annoying...
- Kalite güvenceli konaklama
- Her ev sahibi telefonla doğrulanmıştır
- SSL şifrelemesi ile güvenli ödeme


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Hello everyone. Very sweet subject, could not resist! Well, I am completing my first year and feel I have something to share. First, couple of general comments:
- for beginner it is absolutely essential to have all equipment of the same type/size. If it is 8-frame medium Lang - everything should be the same size. It is very important to be able to interchange frames, boxes etc.
- Even if you are planning to be small, plan to have a few extra boxes if it is Lang or Warre. If TB, it should be build keeping in mind the need to grow (longer). You also need to have extra frames etc.
- it is really bad idea to have hives of different design/type/size - decide first and than stuck to one type.
Now, the hot subject "Lang or not Lang"! I have my personal opinion on this:
- there are number of different beehive designs other than Lang. All of them are doing very well in other places. It is only US crazy about Lang. The biggest advantage of the Lang is its universal dimensions - all hardware with small limitations are interchangeable. Because of universal dimensions,it is convenient for commercial beekeeping.
- Now,we have two principal designs: vertical and horizontal.
- Vertical permits expansion of the hive easily by adding additional boxes; vertical beehives normally manipulated by the box - remove, add the box; how many boxes big the hive... There are two major problems with this design: (1) boxes are heavy; (2) rearranging the boxes requires to break hive apart, which some people believe is too much intrusion for the bees. Thus, Warre design with minimal intrusion, but it is still necessary to move heavy boxes.
- Horizontal design have deal with the frame (bar). Frames/bars may be easily added, moved etc without breaking apart the whole hive. Many believed that this is more bee-friendly approach. Once nest is growing, additional frames may be added. Specific horizontal colony management provides ways for swarm management and honey collection. It is debated which design is more "natural" - vertical or horizontal. It is my understanding that in nature both, standing and horizontal logs used by bees. In fact, many traditional old beehives have a horizontal design, horizontal log basically.
- At the level of "frame" one need to choose between foundation-foundationless and frame-frameless. Traditionally, foundation is used in combination with the frame. Foundation is supposed to accelerate the comb making process (debatable). It is well documented that wax accumulates chemicals used to treat beehives. Recycling the wax as it often happens in commercial beekeeping would accumulate chemicals in the reclaimed wax. Thus, more people is interested in foundationless approach when bees create their own comb. Foundationless is less suitable to commercial approach, centrifugal honey extraction in particular. "Standard" frame is a part of Lang's beehive. Other beehives have other standards. Many horizontal beehives used only top bar.
Серёжа, Sergey
Not disagreeing w/ Sergey just to be disagreeable, but, for well over hundred of years beekeepers have kept bees in two deep hive bodies for brood chambers and some other size box, shallows, mediums, Illionois Deeps, Westerns, comb honey supers, cut comb supers or whatever, and done so quite well and successfully. So, even though standard sizes of boxes is a good idea, in the horizontal dimension, the vertical depth of boxes is a choice one might aught to make depending on what one can lift.
One need not keep a hive of bees in 3 mediums, plus medium honey supers. Or two deeps and the honey supers. You could go to all shallows if that suits you. Personally, I feel that the larger the comb available to a queen the easier it is for her to lay a pattern w/out breaking the space.
I don't know that it really matters, it's just something I feel. Mr. Dadant felt so too at one time, therefore the Jumbo Dadant supers and frames. Which were too large, heavy, and cumbersome to move, so they didn't fit those wishing to move hives. One has to fit the equipment to themselves, the beekeeper and let the bees tell you whether it suits them.
There is no real answer to the Thread Title Question. There is only personal preference and experience. I hope you aren't overloaded to the point you can't make a decision. Maybe you should join a club and visit other beekeepers and see their equipment.
Mark Berninghausen
Basically my brief experienced has shown me that the bees will build on any of the available options beeks have. As I will probably always be10 hives or less I do not have to worry about standardization for my extraction process like commercial ventures are driven to for economic reasons. If I was going to start again I would probably go with the 8 frame boxes and med. supers as a standard size, but will stick with what I have for now. Spring I will also start two Top Bar Hives from Honey Bee Habitat since their bars are designed to fit in the standard Lang. hives (good to start comb before putting your package bees in the TBH).
May the Force be with you. The bees will teach you.
N5RWH - 7a
So right now despite all the opinions I am working towards my equipment. And man I nearly have it Right now I am set on 10 frame langs. The only thing I haven't decided on is whether I will incorporate the two deep + several medium super configuration or run with all mediums.
I am still looking for a more local bee club but found one an hour plus away. Luckily I have been able to meet up with one local bee keeper (whom I am very appreciative of) to at least get some perspective. Hopefully I will be able to visit with you Mark in the spring.
One thing is clear to me (since I am hoping/planning to go treatment free). I will likely be in the game of making my own nucs to help survive losses while I work towards a stable population of treatment free bees. This means to me that having interchangeable frames will be very handy. So that gives me a couple options:
1. Use only deeps for hive body brood chambers and nucs(medium supers)
2. Go all mediums, including the brood chambers and nucs
A second issue with the deeps is that if I go foundationless (my hope/plan), deeps might be a bit more fragile to handle. This may mean I have to choose between foundations and deeps or mediums and foundationless.
Great dialogue with many of the new posters. Although there isn't a right answer to the question I posed. I am reaping the benefits of each of your personal experiences, as are others who read this thread. Thank you.
one side question. I have heard people reference foundationless frames for 10 langs that are "wedge with divided bottom". I am trying to find something like that in the catalog I have from dadant but am failing to do so. Is this more of a custom type frame or am I just missing the boat? i.e. if some one had a picture of one of this style I would love to see it.
Last edited by Beelosopher; 10-01-2012 at 10:07 AM.
One "impact" of using medium frames is that the bees can cross over frames more easily, at least that is my understanding.
I believe WT Kelley is making the frames you're interested in.
Trying to think inside the box...
I keep 10 frame langs (deeps and shallows) and Warré Hives. This winter I've decided to switch all but one Warré to 8 frame mediums.
For me it's simply about compatibility my local bee friends are both running 8 frame mediums and I really like them. I keep the Warré because it's an enjoyable hive to keep and I like to compare it to my Langs.
N5RWH - 7a
Trying to think inside the box...
BeeCurious, My girls have been drawing out the WTK foundationless deep frames wonderfully. I think I got 20 of them and have 10 installed with 4 fully drawn out in 3 hives. I think two are mostly honey and two are almost exclusive brood. The rest are in progress and doing well.
N5RWH - 7a
Following the beekeepers tradition to make plural answers on any single question, I would like to add more to the pot. In principle, I would prefer the top-bar hive (TBH). I think that for amateur beekeeping it is best suitable for many reasons: fun to make own hardware, small initial investment into hardware, more direct "communication" with bees, less invasive, no foundation, no extractor, more "natural" etc. But, bees dictate what they needed. In my case, they completely denied to be in TBH. They wanted to be in the deep Lang box! They ignored medium as well. So, what to do? After quite a bit of research on the Internet, I find a compromise between Lang design and horizontal hive since I love TBH (and bees are not!). It's basically two-Langs long deep box accommodating 20 standard frames. It is huge and not movable. The idea is to let bees expand horizontally assuming that 20 deep frames enough for even VERY large nest. It also may be expanded vertically by adding standard Lang mediums on the top (1 medium or 2 side-by-side or even more). I spent a whole weekend making this box - it looks actually cool and is much better to my conditions - I would prefer something flat rather than tall - we are in earthquakes zone. The advantage of this "horizontal Lang" is that it may be managed in similar to TBHs way until placing supers on top. With supers - it is basically funny Lang with all advantages and disadvantages. Once supers removed it is manageable in TBH fashion again (preparation for winter etc.) Wish me luck - I hope my girls would like it! The problem is that it is very difficult to experiment having only two beehives... Sergey
Серёжа, Sergey
Hey Sergey,
Do earthquakes make the bees cranky?
N5RWH - 7a
my bees are cranky most of the time... at some degree... I guess,they have the same nightmares as I am - that 6 mediums tall hive will collapse and roll down the hill... I think, at this point, the direction is different, what bees would do and what I shall do... I need to prepare emergency bee-plan.
Серёжа, Sergey
That is quite a skyscraper! I have been following a bunch of your posts, especially the ones with pictures of your honey frames. 9 more days and I am going to order two of the Honey Bee Habitat TBHs. Mainly because their price is right and the top bars will fit into a standard Lang., which is good for a start of the comb. 5 April is the earliest I can get my package bees from BeeWeaver, orders some time this month according to Laura Weaver. My splits are doing well and should be built up for winter, 3 hives are taking 25 lbs. of sugar with HBH & Amino B a week 1:1. I will try to take some pictures this weekend during my thorough inspection. I also came up with an update to my frame perch to hold frames at a slight angle for picture taking, it will hold deeps or med. frames at a slight angle ~20 degrees. I am hoping it is not too much for foundation less that is not attached on the sides or bottom yet.
News at 11...
N5RWH - 7a
Thank you for the explanation it made a lot of sense once i saw the video comparison. What would we do without you tube?
It looks like they have a separate frame type for foundationless on the link beecurious referenced too. Has anyone used that type? They call them a beveled top and solid bottom board (Medium F-style frames 6-1/4" x 17-5/8")
I could see that if you used foundation and your sheets were perfectly cut the slotted top and bottom would be quick and easy install. However the wedge and divided bottom would be easier if your sheets were a little off in size.
BeeCurious thanks for the link on the frame types.
This is actually a pretty good video using what looks like the beveled frame with the solid bottom.
I think this is really cool too because it looks like this guy is using foundationless for deeps with success (he just wires them for support). I wasn't sure if the bees would build comb down with that wire present. It looks like they do according to this guy. If anyone has had luck with this please let me know too. I think I want to aspire to foundationless, and still haven't decided for or against using deeps for the hive body because I wasn't sure if they would have enough support.
Edit: 48 second 2 foundation less frame video, WTK type:
N5RWH - 7a
Being a new guy, I hadn't realized that there were multiple frame types. I thought they were pretty much the same bones and you decided to put foundation, or not in them. Based on that you might put in a beveled piece (If no foundation) or just leave as it is and attach the foundation.
While I have seen bee equipment the frames were always already drawn out so I never saw how they were constructed.
Beelosopher - I will be converting all my deeps to mediums in the next 3 years, as I am inheriting a good number of medium frames. It is a simple table saw operation, but I plane the tops flat first. I then re-establish the depth of the frame-hanging rabbets with a router to .700", then chisel the corners carefully. I check the box for squareness, then I set the table saw ripping gate at 6 5/8" and cut all four sides down to medium Illinois size. Then I get out the good, ol' sanding block.
It is a good idea to use your branding iron in a place that does not get modified, if you have not branded yet.
10-frame boxes can also be cut into 8-frame boxes, but it is not so simple. The method I have used for this is to remove any cleat handles, lay out a cutting path on the short ends with two notches on one side and two tabs on the other. The cross-cuts must leave the long part of each half, the notches are drilled and cut after sawing the box in half. The finished, re-sized box must be 8-frame dimensions. That's [the right edge to the tab] + [the left edge to the notch] = 13 3/8" outside dimension (assuming 3/4" lumber - some 8-frames are different sized). I drill and nail vertically from the top and from the bottom to keep the thing connected while the glue dries. I clamp with wax paper-wrapped guide planks. Last, I add new cleat handles, glued and screwed from the inside.
So you can start off with one style and make it into another later, and 3 colonies are not too many to modify. I'm modifying 80 boxes from 10-frame deeps to 10-frame mediums, and will be making frames like crazy most of my free time, and phasing out the deep combs over 2 or 3 years. I hope my shoulder improves so I don't have to go to 8-frame equipment ever (I really love my 5-use, 10-frame mediums), but time and age march on, and we do not get any younger, and 40 lbs is easier to lift than 50 lbs....
I started out with deeps because I wanted a quick start in the business and wanted to get as much bee resources as I could for less work. Now it is time to do the rest of the work on making 3 mediums where I used to use 2 deeps. My shoulders, back, and knees are telling me I should'a dunnit last year! Oh, and BTW, the leftover wood rectangles can be used to make inner cover rims, Cloake boards, screened bottom boards, escape boards, even more supers (if you are meticulous), double screen boards, pollen traps, etc., etc., etc....why waste wood?
Last edited by kilocharlie; 10-02-2012 at 11:41 AM.


text:
" Brand: Braun "
I have visited a salon to get my legs waxed for quite some years. However, now times are harder I began looking for a cheaper way of staying fuzz free. Spending £20 every 3 weeks is just too expensive. Shaving wasn't an option for me, I got sick of how soon regrowth appeared. I tried the wax at home strips but didn't have any luck getting a good result and wasn't impressed with how sticky and messy I got in the process. I asked my Mum if she would buy me an epilator for Christmas. It was too expensive for me to justify buying it for myself. This is the one she chose for me.
*What's in the box?*
It comes in a box with quite a few extras included. The main epilator needs to be plugged into the mains to work so there is a lead to do this. It is worth noting that it is a 2 pronged plug so you do need to buy a seperate adapter to fit it into the normal UK plugs. There is a small brush which is to be used to clean the epilator after each use. Also included is an 'ice glove' which can be used to soothe legs if they are sore after use, or to numb the skin before use so it doesn't hurt if you are particularly wussy!
There are a number of 'caps' which can be attached to the epliator if you are using it under you arms or on the face to make it a little gentler.
*How to use*
It's very simple to use. You plug in the mains lead into the main unit and slide up the switch on the front of the epilator. It can be slid up into 2 settings, the latter a little more forceful than the first. I tend to have it on the higher setting but then I do only use it on my legs. There is a light on the front of the unit which is very useful for seeing areas you may otherwise miss. To do both of my legs below the knees takes me 45 minutes so it is quite time consuming.
*Pain factor*
It's ripping hairs out of your skin by the root so obviously it isn't going to be pain free. I would say it is slightly less painful than waxing but it's definitely worth going through it for the results you get.
After using this epilator my legs tend to get little red marks over them but this fades after around an hour. I remain hairfree for 3 weeks which is the same as with waxing.
I know I previously mentioned that it comes with a brush to clean it but I have never actually used it. I tend to blow the unit when holding it over the sink and this removes any hair that might be stuck in it. It is a bit messy when actually in use as the hair falls on to the floor but I have yet to see another epilator that doesn't cause the same problem.
*Price and availability*
Mine cost £70 2 years ago. It is available from Boots, Amazon and sometimes in supermarkets for between £80 and £85 now.
*My opinion*
For the amount that this device costs, it is well worth the money. For using it for just 4 months I had made my money back compared to what I would have spent in waxing. It has lasted really well and shows no signs of wear and tear. If you don't mind a bit of pain to get smooth fuzzfree body parts I would definitely recommend this.
I was lucky enough to win this in a raffle hamper a fair few months ago now. For the purpose of this review I did some research on retail cost. On www.ladyschemist.com this product was selling for £85.00, the cheapest I could find was for £71.00 which was from www.healthcare4all.co.uk. However I'm sure these will pop up on EBay for a little cheaper.
Inside the box you are given 5 accessories for the epilator.
1- EfficiencyPro Cap
2- Underarm Cap
3- Shaver Head
4- Trimmer Cap
5- Facial Cap
This also comes with an ice glove, a brush to clean the epilator and a white drawstring bag to keep everything in. An instructional manual is also provided.
What makes this product different from all the rest?
Unlike other epilators this is designed for use on your legs, body and face. So for your money your getting 3 products in one. It also comes with two different attachments. The dual massage system and the flexible 'EfficiencyPro cap'. The dual massage system gently stimulates the skin before and gently massages the skin after hair is pulled out to soothe the skin which can significantly reduce the pain. The EfficencyPro cap fits to the curves and shape of your body for quick and efficient hair removal. This epilator contains 40 tweezers that are specifically arranged to remove more hair in a single stroke, and with the 'SoftLift Tips' you can remove hair as short as 0.5mm.
Skin Cooling
I'm quite a wuss when it comes to pain so I was really unsure about using this product at first. I read a couple of reviews on this product and many said the ice glove pack can really help, so if there was any way to reduce any sort of pain I would have I was going to take it. Before using the ice pack it has to sit in the freezer for at least 2 hours. You then slide this into the silver glove and start cooling the desired area for around 1-2 minutes. I always do it for a little longer just to be on the safe side. You then epilate the cooled area straight away.
Ease Of Use And Longevity
I have found this product very easy to use. There are many different caps which are all easily removed with the push of two buttons simultaneously on each side of the epilator. The device fits snuggly into my hands and has many grooves which allows me to hold it securely not allowing my hands to slip. These also allow me to use the right amount of pressure. The epilator is made containing a 'smartlight' in the switch. This shows up all the finer hairs that you possibly would of missed before. I have had no problems when using this, the design features have made this a quick and easy task for me. Before epilating I always leave my hair to grow to around 3-4 mm I find this is the most comfortable length to remove, I use the fast setting on my legs but would advise using the slow setting for more sensitive areas of the face and underarm. Once I have epilated I find the results to last for around 3 weeks, but Braun does claim they can last for up to 4 weeks. I'm quite happy with my 3 week outcome though, everyone's different so results will vary. Not having the pain of shaving all the time is a real blessing.
Pain or Discomfort?
As I had never used at epilator before at first I did find it quite painful to use. The pain wasn't overbearing though and it the process is quite quick, so its over and done with in no time. You are pulling your hairs out your skin so if buying these you have to be prepared to put up with a little pain. However I do find the ice pack does reduce the pain a lot and the massaging feature does seem to soothe my skin. Over time with continued use I have noticed that the pain has greatly reduced, so if you find this painful at first stick with it, because it will improved. Another thing I found after first use is that my skin was quite red, didn't feel no discomfort. But a few things I would say would be to epilate in the evening, this way the redness will disappear overnight. Also always moisturise after this will help to relax the skin, and leave it feeling very soft.
Any Negatives?
I wouldn't say this product has any negatives just a few niggles for me. Firstly this comes with a shaver plug which means I had to go out and purchase one. Argos sell them for £4.99 but luckily I found one in my local Poundland store. Another thing is that the epilator has no battery, it runs completely off the mains, so it does have to be plugged in at all times, which can sometimes restrict my movement. Lastly it is quite noisy it actually made me jump the first time I switched it on. However like I said these are all niggles nothing major, it doesn't take away from how effective this epilator is.
My Overall Opinion
I would recommend this epilator, its quick and easy to use. The price tag does seem a little expensive but when I think of how much I spend on new razors, razor blades and waxing equipment there really isn't much in it, and this can be used time and time again. The product is very easy to clean and even comes with a brush to aid you doing this. There is a little pain as iv mentioned but this surely deteriorates over time. The 40 tweezers feature makes it easy to remove a lot of hairs in one go, reducing the time it takes if uses other brands or previous versions. The massaging feature is a great addition, Braun have tried to make this process as painless as possible. I would defiantly recommend this, it leaves your legs feeling silky smooth, and not having to repeatedly shave my legs is a massive bonus for me, and many other women I'm sure. I am going to give this a 4/5 I'm deducting one star purely because of the few niggles iv mentioned with it.
I first bought a Braun epilator around six years ago, so I am very well adjusted to the feeling of epilation. My leg hairs are much softer and finer now and I hardly notice the pain at all. I also only have to epilate once every eight weeks or so, whereas when I started, I was having to epilate once every three to four weeks.
Anyway, this particular model is very handy in that it is easy to hold and there is a very bright light which focuses your attention on the area being attended to. It means that I never miss a hair- compared to some other models where there is no light. It also means that I can afford to go over one area less than if there was no light as I can see where the hairs are very clearly. I like that there are two speeds as well.
In addition, you get three different heads so that you can use the device on different parts of your body. One is meant for the face, the other for the bikini line and the biggest one for the legs. Personally, I find the epilator too harsh for the bikini line, so I stick to waxing down there! I would never bring it near my face as despite the fact that it has never cut me or damaged my skin, I am not willing to take the risk on my face. Despite this, I know a few friends who have had no problem at all using it on their face and bikini line. Different strokes for different folks and it depends on your pain tolerance. If you are used to waxing your bikini line, it may not be too much of a stretch to use the epilator there with great care! As long as you don't go too far...
This is a really excellent product and it is well worth the price. I have two versions- the older model and this particular one. I have had this one for around three years and it still works like new. Highly recommended.
Having to constantly purchase wax strips was starting to become such a pain and therefore I decided to invest in the Braun epilator. Even though I purchased it full price from boots I thought it would save me money and time. The very first time I used this product the pain was unbearable and I had to stop every few seconds. However, once I managed to complete epilating my legs, I was very pleased with the results. My legs were very smooth and it picked up the tiniest of hairs. A few months down the line, i started to notice ingrown hairs which was a complete shame as the product worked so well. Having discussed this with a friend she mentioned that epilating causes ingrown hairs, therefore, it's most likely not the products fault but perhaps the process of epilation. I stopped using the product and went back to waxing even though it is more time consuming. The product itself is very easy to use and fits comfortably in the hands. The light makes it easy to see the hairs and the different heads it comes with is very useful depending on the area you wish to epilate. The charging lead is a really good length - quite long. The speed settings helped me get used to the epilator and after using it a few times I did not feel any pain. If it didn't cause ingrown hairs I would absolutely love this product.
My friend told me about this product recently. I had never used one before I had always shaved with a razor but am forever cutting myself so when my friend suggested this I thought id give it a go.
I bought this from my local Boots store. Im not sure if this is the cheapest option but it was the most convenient for me so that is why I chose Boots.
The epilator came in a nice box with a little cleaning brush so that you can keep the epilator nice and clean after use. It is very easy to clean and only takes a couple of minutes so definitely worth doing to keep it in good condition. I have always used it in daylight but if you wanted to use it at night it comes with a little light to help you see what you are doing. I cant comment on what that is like as I didn't try it.
I have used it quite a few times now and think it is really good. I expected it to really hurt from the way my friend described it but once you get used to it I found it really wasn't painful.
I think it works best if you go quite slowly as it seems to get more hairs than if you rush. There are 2 different speed settings I have only ever used the fast one as it has worked fine for me
It is very easy to use you really cant go wrong. I have found that my legs stay nice and smooth for ages longer by using this so I am so glad I bought it. I think it has saved me loads of time and also stopped my legs getting covered in cuts from the razor.
I have previously owned a more basic Braun epilator that although worked well didn't have so many tweezers so I decided to upgrade to this never model. I decided to try them originally because when I shave the hair basically grows back immediately I thought something more long-term was needed. I also had problems with ingrown hairs with shaving and other methods of hair removal on my bikini line.
This epilator is a nice size and shape, it fits in your hand nicely and has the added bonus of a 'smartlight' that lights up when the product is in use and helps you see where the hairs are on your legs - I think this is a really useful addition. It also has two speeds which mean when you start out you can go a bit slower to reduce any discomfort.
I've been using this epilator for a year now and am really impressed with it. It isn't rechargeable so you do need a power supply nearby, ideally a shaving socket in the bathroom so you can use it over the bath and create less mess. The epilator work well, although I wouldn't say it is pain-free it is certainly less painful that the previous model I had and the amount of discomfort has decreased over time. I like the addition of the shaver options for trimming hair and the attachment that reduced the size of the area that will be epilated, it increase comfort on the bikini line and make it more manageable.
Over all I'd say it was a good buy and worth the money.
Having used an epilator before and gave up (not keen on pain) for some reason I decided to buy another one. I was using my old Philips epilator with the shaver head attachment but it became damaged. Disappointed with a cheapo replacement shaver I thought I would give this epilator a go.
The 5780 comes with a shaver head, trimmer attachment, sensitive area cap, facial cap and what the manufacturer describes as an efficiency cap.
To ease discomfort the epilator massages the skin, for extra comfort you can use the cooling pack. In my experience the cooling pack helps to numb the skin very slightly. My original Philips model also came with a cooling attachment which had the same effect, so I don't think the fact it doesn't have a huge numbing effect is a design flaw - it's just that cooling the skin only really helps a little.
Originally I started using the sensitive cap as I thought I would ease myself into using an epliator. But it didn't take me long before I switched to the efficiency cap. The efficiency cap does pull more hairs out but I still get the odd hair which it has missed here and there. The sensitive cap is designed for the bikini and under arm area. I have used the sensitive and efficiency cap on my bikini area and although more painful than use on my legs I wouldn't say it is unbearable.
Due to a previous experience of trying to epilate my underarms with the Philips, there is no way I am going to try again with this one! There is only so much pain a woman can take for the sake of beauty.
I don't have any facial hair (yet anyway) that I need to get rid of so I can't really comment on the facial cap. But I would have thought epilating facial hair would be less painful as the hairs are finer.
The shaver attachment is very good, much better than the £15 shaver I had bought to replace my Philips.
Overall I think this a very good product. The only thing that would have been a bonus for me is a rechargeable battery so I could have the freedom of being away from a plug socket.
I first bought a Braun epilator about 15 years ago, when they were a lot more basic and apparently had less "pain relief" features, but eventually it gave up the ghost and for a while I lived without an epilator (or the pain that goes with it). About 2 1/2 years ago I was reading about the lastest versions of epilators and their new pain relief mechanisms and decided it was time to get a new one. So I went for another Braun epilator as the old one lasted so well, the Braun Silk-epil, along with new pain-easing features.
The Gadget
For something that inflicts severe pain it looks relatively friendly. Its a nice unisex blue colour - no reason why guys can't try it out too! It has a two-speed setting, fast and soft and a "smart light" which is a strong white light that shines onto the skin and lights up the hairs so its easy to check if any have been missed. I call it the search light!
It comes with an "efficiency pro" cap, which is basically a cap which clicks over the head of the tweezer device with rollers on which help pull the hair towards the tweezers to ease the pain. I should mention at this point there are 40 tweezers on a rolling device hungry to pull the hairs from your legs (or other places)!
The silk-epil comes with three other caps, a shaverhead and trimmer, cap for epliating facial hair, (I haven't tried either), and a cap for underarms, which I tried once, but the pain was so excruciating I won't be trying it again. The epilator also comes with an ice pad, to cool the skin before and after epilating, hopefully reducing the pain.
In the box there is also the plug and lead, a pouch to keep it all in and a small cleaning brush.
Using the Epilator
I am sure my pain tolerance used to be much greater, perhaps it's after having kids, but recently I have found it extremely painful to use. I think there is a certain amount of getting used to the pain involved, and I am slightly out of practice, so if I used it more perhaps I would become more immune to the pain. Sometimes the pain is enough to bring tears to my eyes!
It's quite an easy device to use, you just go over the skin, keeping the skin torte as it hurts less when tight and out come the hairs via the whirling tweezer device. I find the knees are particularly painful as is the softer skin at the back of the knees. The shins are the area which I find easiest to epilate, they are easy to get to and perhaps because they are not that freshly it doesn't hurt as much. I do use the "efficiency pro" cap as I think it does help ease the pain a little. I sometimes use the ice glove, however I don't like the sensation of the extreme cold on my legs, especially before epilating - after the cold can be more of a welcome relief!
It's a pain to clean. All the hairs get stuck in the tweezeros and even go down into the base of the device. Obviously you can't clean it with water, so I clean it with the little brush it comes with, which isn't easy. The instructions suggest also cleaning with alcohol for hygiene purposes, which I do, especially if it makes my legs bleed - sometimes the tweezers tweak the skin, ouch!
I do find it gets almost all the hairs, as long as I epilate systematically, ie. I have developed a routine for doing my legs. Only a few very short hairs are left, so my legs feel quite smooth, minus any nips the tweezers have given my skin. The hairs stay away for about 3 weeks, and, I am not sure they grow back any thinner as is sometimes stated.
I paid about £45 for mine a few years ago but they seem to have gone up to around £65, which I think is quite expensive.
All in All
Not one for the faint hearted, but is useful if you are going away and don't want to have to shave your legs nearly every day.
I'm going to give it a 3 as it doesn't give much pain relief, it claims to be more pain friendly than my old one, but in reality the pain relieving devices give little pain relief. It also has a habit of nipping my skin regularly and it's quite expensive.
I bought this epilator few month ago to get ready for the summer really as I live near the beach, I go swimming quite a lot. I have tried quite few epilators the last few years and it is because the hair on my legs is quite thick and if I use a razor it grows so quick and even thicker. Anyway I have been using it now for couple of times and I may say it is brilliant. The only thing I did not like is that the plug is an european plug a two pin one so you will need an adaptor two pin to three. It is not a cheap product but it worth the money garanted. Mine came with a calming gel pad which you can put in a fridge and use it after you shaved and it will calm down the skin. I will definitely recommend this product, is very good quality and it does what it says on the tin. Well done Braun!
For those of you who don't know, an epilator is an electrical device which consists of a number of mini tweezers. You glide the epilator along the area you wish to defuzz, and voila! The hair is gone!
I have been using this Braun epilator for about six months now, and it is the first and only one I have ever tried, so cannot compare it to any others. The reason I initially made the purchase was to save money in the long run by epliating my bikini area myself rather than paying each month for waxes. I currently use it on my legs and bikini area.
This epilator hurts. A lot. I mean....a lot. The first time I used it (on my legs) I could only manage an inch at a time, because the pain was so unbearable. Six months on it is still painful, but you definitley get used to the pain. Before I would sit for about twenty minutes building up the courage to put the thing against my skin, but now I just jump straight in. It is definitley very convenient if you are used to waxing: no more booking appointments, no having to pay for waxes monthly, and best of all no waiting for regrowth, you can re-epilate really soon after the hair starts growing back.
However, there are quite a few downsides. The results are nowhere near as silky smooth as shaving or waxing. Yes, it looks fine to look at, but if you want to feel nice and soft, I would recommend shaving afterwards as well. This kind of ruins the convenience factor for me. Also, the result last nowhere near as long as Braun claim. I need to epilate at least once a week. Again, kind of counts against the convenience side of thing, but still much frequent than shaving.
The biggest downside for me though is the fact that it just doesnt get every every hair. I have to go over and over the same patch of skin over and over again, which is not only time consuming but painful too! In addition, I have found that since using the Braun epilator, I have started getting much more ingrown hairs, and really painful ones too, which I never got with waxing.
Overall, while I thought that epilating would be good in theory, in reality it hasn't really lived up to many of my expectations. I stick with it because I cannot abide shaving, and I spent so much on the gadget itself, but if I knew now what I knew then I would probably give it a miss.
"Aaaaarrrgghhhhh!!! OMG, OMG, OMG! *?!#!?!? Jurassic Park!!"
No, I'm not reviewing the first series of Jackass, I'm reviewing the Braun Body and Face Epilator. First of all, you need to realise I am a man. A man with big thick man hairs. None of those lovely little lady hairs you feminine people have. My girlfriend has been complaining about my hairy back so the other day when I had a day off and was bored, I thought I'd go out and buy this product and make my back nice and smooth as a special surprise for when she came home from work.
My first mistake was trying to shave a back by myself. Not an easy thing to do. And the pain.. Oh my goodness, the pain. I had to keep checking in the mirror to make sure I hadn't just ripped my entire back off (you'll be pleased to know I hadn't). With a very patchy (yet occasionally deliciously smooth) back, I admitted defeat and moved on to a more easily accessible patch of hair. I draw the line at getting rid of my chest and leg hairs as I wouldn't want to be emasculated. So I tried tidying up one of my more private places. Surprisingly, I actually quite enjoyed this experience. It was an odd mixture of pleasure and pain. I only meant to give myself a tidy up, but I ended up looking like a chap from one of those adult movies. After giving the epilator a good clean (which is very easy to do), I thought I'd try out the face function. Just so you know, I have rather a hairy face. I haven't been completely clean shaven for many years, but I thought I 'd have a go. I started on my upper lip. At this point of the review I will have to refer you back to the opening lines. I had my appendix out when I was younger and I thought it was the most painful thing anyone could ever go though. I now know better. It actually made me cry. I had real tears of pain running into my partially deformed moustache.
When my girlfriend came home from work to find me curled up in a ball with random bald patches all over my body, she thought I had been tortured by some escaped mental patient. When I managed to whimper out a "surprise" and pathetically explained to her what I had tried to do, she eventually managed to stop laughing enough to help me tidy up my back (the moustache was finished with a good old fashioned razor!). She also used the epilator herself on her lovely little lady hairs and said the product is one of the best she has used.
So, if you're a woman - I have it on good authority that this is an awesome product.
If you are a man - for the love of God - stay hairy!
I wish I was a man, with only facial hair to worry about. As it is, I'm a woman and society decrees that I must have silky smooth legs and underarms. Anyone that's ever experienced a five o'clock shadow on their armpits will understand why shaving's not my favourite. Waxing is painful - once I lost a massive patch of skin on one leg due to a Veet strip. I still noticed the odd hair left behind as well, so dear old Veet was shoved into the bin. Then there was the time I burnt myself with depilatory cream... I'm a disaster zone when it comes to hair removal, and so I looked to epilation to solve my woes.
The Braun Silk-epil Xelle 5780 is designed to be a face and body epilator. When purchasing you'll receive the unit itself, an underarm cap, facial and bikini line cap, shaver head and trimmer cap and one 'efficiency pro' cap. Along with that you'll get a cleaning brush, storage bag, cooling ice glove and of course the charging cable. This epilator is a two pin plug affair, so you will have to purchase an adaptor separately. However these are available for under £1 on Amazon and also places like Boots, so they're not tricky to get hold of, it just would have been useful if Braun had have included one.
This model retails on Amazon for £62.99 currently, but has been closer to £80 in recent months. I notice Amazon advertise this as having new packaging now, but the front picture appears the same. So this is a mid-to upper range epilator. I personally nabbed this in the sale for around £35 a couple of years ago, which was very jammy of me! But I have to say if I had to replace it today I'd be more than happy to pay full price for it. Before going for an expensive choice, I did decide to purchase a £10 Asda epilator with my weekly shop, just to see if I could tolerate the famous epilation pain before I forked out a fortune on a torture device. I regret this immensely, it was agonising and useless. My advice would be that when it comes to epilators, buy a well branded one - the expense is worth it.
~~~What does it look like?~~~
That's an important question - nobody likes an ugly torture device, do they?
The epilator itself is a cool blue, with deeper blue and white detailing on it. Braun's silk-epil branding is stamped at the bottom, while the middle is dedicated to the 'smart light' and the sliding power button. The smart light is an invaluable tool, it's not a weak yellowy light, but a strong LED (possibly?) white light that shows up every little hair, so you can see clearly and not miss anywhere. There are two speed levels to choose from - speed one is Extra Gentle and speed two is Extra Efficient. So all you need to do it slide the switch up to whichever level you choose, and back down to off when you're done. The switch moves with ease, and the smart light comes on automatically.
I actually think it's quite an attractive unit, there's no unnecessary writing or buttons - just simple and sleek and yet still quite pretty. It's relatively unisex in blue too, so nothing to stop the menfolk from having a go either. (I've inflicted this on a few males of the species and I can confirm that they all weeped and wailed. Loudly.)
~~~In use~~~
Ouch. Ow. More ow.
Ok, here's the truth - it hurts. The first time you use an epilator it will hurt a lot more than it ever will again, it's worth just being brave and getting through it, because the results speak for themselves.
The first time I used the Silk-Epil I opted for the 'Efficiency Pro' cap. It has two little blue rollers which gently pull the hair towards the (40!) tweezers so they can be epilated with the least amount of pain and effort. This cap is perfect for a first use, and in fact I still prefer it now.
Perhaps I made a mistake here in trying my underarms the first time. But that's what I did - slid the cap into place on the top of the epilator, plugged in the cable at the bottom of the unit, flicked the speed level to 2 and went hammer and tongs at it. I quickly learnt the biggest lesson of epilation - hold your skin taught, ladies! If you don't pull your skin so it's at least a little taught, the tweezers can snag and cut your skin. Now, that hurts.
The procedure is you keep the skin taut, then glide the epilator gently across the skin. You don't need to press down hard, or push it with force over the area. Just letting it touch your skin, and gliding it across is the best way.
Underarms are definitely more painful than legs - I actually found doing my legs completely pain-free (honestly!). I cannot vouch for the pain induced by epilating a bikini line - I'm not a fully fledged masochist just yet.
I noticed that the epilator pulled the hairs out with ease, it wasn't necessary to go over and over the same area. None of the hairs snapped either (something I noticed with a cheaper epilator) - they were pulled straight out from the roots. The smart light makes it very easy to see where you're epilating, so it's rare you'll miss bits and end up with one hairy patch!
It didn't take too long either! My underarms take me about 10 minutes, whereas my legs are more like 20 minutes.
I used the ice pack on my first attempt at epilating, and the cooling relief was immediate and welcome. However I haven't used this since, so I do think it's a bit of a novelty.
I find that using this epilator keeps my skin smooth for about a fortnight. By then regrowth begins to show through, but after a few weeks of using the Silk Epil this regrowth was (and continues to be) much finer and softer than the hair was previously.
There was some noticeable ingrown hairs after use, which did disappoint me. Personally I suffer these more with epilation than I do with waxing, but some healthy exfoliating beforehand helps a lot.
Another downside is that it's tricky to clean the epilating head. The brush does help ease some of the plucked hair out, but it takes a lot of effort.
The instruction manual suggested the head be cleaned every so often with neat alcohol to keep things hygienic. I clean my epilator by dipping the brush into a little capful of cheap vodka (something vodka drinkers always moan at!) and I've never had a problem with that.
I've had the Silk Epil for about two years now, and the only sign of wear and tear is the drawstring of the storage bag has become a little frayed.
I'm very impressed by the durability of this epilator - I use it every fortnight and yet (so far!) I've not had anything snap, break, or even begin to look shabby. For this reason, and the fact that once you've bought the unit you don't need to pay any more money (unlike, say, waxing), I believe this epilator is great value for money in the long run.
~~~To sum up~~~
Basically, the Braun Silk-epil 5780 is a very durable epilator that should last you a long time. There is some pain involved, but no more than something like waxing, and the results are phenomenal.
Thanks for reading :)
I was tired of shaving all the time and found the thought of waxing painful let alone the cost and so I started thinking about epilators. My sister used to have an epilator years ago and we used to try and try to use it but both found it way too painful (I think we both have quite a low pain threshold) so gave in. Years later I was talking with a friend about epilators she let me borrow her silk epil epilator to test out whether they hurt less and are actually any good. I tried it out and I will say the noise this epilator makes is scary and makes me apprehensive every time I go to epilate until I have actually started but its bark is much worse than it's bite! As soon as you have done the first strip of your leg it is fine. I very rarely use the cool pad but that does help. I will admit I am too much of a wuss to do the back of my knees and my ankles but this epilator comes with a number of different head attachments so I sway from epilating to shaving for those sensitive areas.
I have found that it does take a lot longer for hair to grow back and when it does you dont get the same rough feeling legs that shaving stubble gives you. I would definitely recommend this product!
Prior to buying this epilator I had never used one before and had never waxed my legs either. Last Summer I got fed up of either having to shave my legs all the time or being unable to throw on a skirt when the sun made a surprise appearance as I hadn't shaved my legs.
I am no fan of pain and always thought I'd prefer the hassle of regular shaving over the pain of an epilator but I decided to be brave and invest in one. I'm so glad I did!
So far I have only been brave enough to try this epilator on my legs so my review is based on this.
Firstly, it was nowhere near as painful as I had expected. Yes it smarts a little at first but after a few minutes it's more like a constant tingling which goes as soon as you've finished. The epilator comes with a freezer pack you can put on your leg to cool the skin but I found I didn't need it.
The light is good but I found using the epilator in daylight gave better results as by artificial light I missed quite a few hairs and had to go over my legs again the next day.
I would also say, take your time. The first time I used it I did it quite quickly and found some hairs were cut rather than plucked out so my legs weren't smooth. Going slowly gives the tweezers better chance to grasp the hairs and pull them out.
There are 2 speed settings on this epilator, one is supposed to be gentler than the other but I can't say I have found any difference in the pain/tingling so I always use the faster, more efficient setting.
The epilator comes with a little cleaning brush and is easily taken apart to clean and re-assemble ready for it's next use.
The epilator does leave you with red spots on your legs where the hair folicles are but if you use it in the evening the reddening will have gone by the morning.
Overall I would recommend this product to anyone who wants longer lasting hair removal
I had this epilator for xmas 2011. and i was very excited to try it out, because i had always waxed as shaving never lasted very long for me, so i wanted to try something that would last a bit longer, but didn have to make beutician appointments all the time. at first i found it a little uncomfortable, but as i got used to it and tightned my skin a bit more it was very barable. i was amazed how smooth it left my legs, and the red spots were the hair had been pulled out of dissapeared within 24 hours. as i got braved i tried my under arms, and that was a fantastic result. so smoth and not very painfulll to do. all together my hair started to grow back after about 3 weeks, and i would eppilate quickly and they'd be gone! the only slight problem id have would be as the hair are growing back, the area would become a bit itchy so i could tell hairs were growing back! but after exfoliating properly the problem would be solved. i will never shave againg, my epilator is the best
40 Tweezers - Removes more in a single stroke. 2 Epilation speeds - Ideal for beginners & experienced users. Soft Lift Tips - Lifts even shortest hairs for a closer epilation. Smart Light Technology - ..spotlight to ensure no hair missed. Active Massaging Rollers - Stimulate & relax skin. Efficiency attachment - Captures more hair in one stroke. Narrow Cap - Designed for underarms & bikini line gentle hair removal. ..Facial attachment - For utmost precision and control in sensitive areas. Mains Only. Includes travel bag and cleaning brush.


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Discussion in 'March 2013' started by roscoe36, Oct 29, 2012.
Singler at the 4. Frickin sweet! Well, he is only guarding Steve Novak I suppose.
Do we have anyone on our roster, who doesn't combine at least two of the following: Poor defender Weak Shocking offensive game
With the exception of Monroe and Drummond. Also coach, keep stuckey sitting.
Who are these guys??
I would add - Playing out of position Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Even though I read it here earlier it took me until the end of the 3rd Q to realize Frank wasn't coaching. Brian Hill seemed to favor the separate black and white line-ups. Although this game was a bit of a black eye to the NBA the Pistons battled and I enjoy watching the random combinations. Quote of the Night: "Stuckey with 2 clutch free throws!", George Blaha after Stuckey put the Pistons up 2 with 6:50 to go in the 4th Q.
Interesting more coaches haven't explored the black/white lineups. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
I think it really takes a front office and coach working in unison to pull that off and that is rare.
Valiant effort by the short-handed Pistons tonight. Story of the game: +/- Jose -3 Knight 0 Max -8 Singler -1 JJ -1 Slava -2 Stuckey -18 Bynum -17 On a night where we were terribly hurting for size, it is absolutely inexcusable that Middleton gets slapped with a DNP-CD.
There are 48 available point guard minutes. But we played a total of 122 point guard minutes. For no reason at all, because none of our point guards can play shooting guard in the slightest. Brandon Knight did hit some threes, but he was left wide open for each of them. Every time he tried to shoot like a shooting guard, like coming off a screen - nothing, not even close to going in. I know many want to believe with time he will become a shooting guard. He is young. It could happen. Given enough years. But for now it is not doing any good. Then you have Stuckey, a fine point guard. 0-5 tonight, minus 18, totally worthless for us, because he can't shoot under any circumstances at all. Then you have Bynum, who has totally reverted to the Bynum we never want to see play, the guy who continually calls his own number, but can't shoot. Way too many heat checks from him and no heat at all. No assists, only turns on his stat sheet tonight. And of course his defense is lacking. No reason for him to be on the floor at all. Another loss, and we tightened up to an 8 man rotation (with Slava only getting 12 minutes) so we really, really, were most just playing point guards for a whole lot of minutes. Indeed, there are only 240 player minutes availavble, so just over half were played by point guards. Another opportunity missed to play our young shooting guards. English and Middleton. You know, guys who can actually play the position, or at least have half a chance to learn to. Calderon connected 4 times in this game with JMAX for dunks. Nice. But JMAX should never take that outside shot. Too many times, Calderon passes up a shot and JMAX ends up taking a worse shot from the outside. Or Calderon passed off to Stuckey, who certainly shoul not shoot the ball since he can't, but he did. Good solid run in this game from mid 2nd to well into the 3rd quarter. With neither of Bynum nor Stuckey on the floor. We went from 15 down, to 11 up. To be fair, we did stall out there with most of the starters on the floor. Had to stall out eventually I guess. But hey, bringing in Stuckey and Bynum to get us out of trouble is like finding two tons of gasoline to extinguish a fire with. Wrong guys to bring into the game. Monroe missed due to an ankle sprain in practice. Slava gave us some ok minutes. CV missed for a sore hamstring. Both JJ and Singler played some power forward and did ok though they of course had trouble with Stoudemire. (I think that was JJ mostly who got stuck trying to guard the guy.) Nice to see JJ hit some shots, and of course we all hope he can can continue to do so, as his hustle is always welcome out there. Singler opened the 2nd half with a 3 and two other buckets as we quickly closed the 6 point halftime gap. Later, JJ nailed some shots, including a 3 from well behind the line. Slava scored a couple of times inside. Could be getting a bit more comfortable on the NBA floor. Hill coached as they said Frank was dealing with family issues. Calderon shot ok, but he is no Bynum. His first thought is pretty much always to find a way for a teammate to score. Part of what kept us in the game, until we finally had that long good stretch, was a whole lot of turns by NY. Can't think of anything more at the moment. Still fun to watch the game. Very dissapointed though in that with being short handed, we still could not fit in time for our young shooting guards.
When I tuned in to the game, the Pistons were up 65-61....They were outscored by 10 to close the qtr and settled for a 65-65 tie. I switched to the magic/Heat game since it was close to see if the streak was in jeopardy. By the time I switched back they were down 71-65. I think the 16-0 run was due to certain players out there on the floor (named Stuckey and Bynum) who had no answers for the Knicks . ...Stuckey and Bynum were a -18 and -17 and a combined 2-13 shooting and 4 turnovers. The Knicks closed the game on 32-12 run going back to 3 min mark of the 3rd qtr... that was almost the best run of the night, but the best actually occurred in New Orleans where I will comment in the Other Games around the league thread.
The Pistons now need to be thinking of securing a top ten pick. Philly and Toronto are right there. This year would have been a disappointment but was saved by the arrival of Drummond. The team needed Knight and Monroe to step up big to become a winner this season. It was not about Stuckey and the other veterans who have shown that they cannot carry a winning load. Monroe has come halfway but Knight was not ready for a major role yet. The team at least became competitive with Drummond as part of the mix. Finally, there is a core to move forward with. The team still needs serious help in skilled positions to play around Monroe and Drummond. The Pistons were lucky that Drummond fell to the 9th spot. I don't watch college. How could this have happened? They were lucky to get Monroe at the 7th spot. Joe wanted Cousins, who is also a good young big. The Pistons need one more top pick. This will hopefully be their last top pick for awhile. Better that it is a top ten pick. Can't always count on a key player falling. The team was right to sit Monroe. The team doesn't need too many feel good wins. In one more month, another top ten pick can be in place. The future is close at hand.
I don't want to watch Stuckey shoot pull up 3's. The guy isn't Steph Curry. His shot is just nasty.
If Hill had won with this line-up, it would have been time to promote him, but it doesn't appear that he has met Kris Middleton or Kim English. There is no way Stuckey should have been out there for 26 mins and Singler for 41 minutes when those two rooks have shown promise the last few games. Their bench outscored ours 50-11. I hate to call it now, but it may time to start going into tank mode..
The Knicks were gambling away on defense because they could always help off of Stuckey when he was out at the 3 pt line. I'm not sure, but I don't think harming the offense is a good quality for your off the bench "spark plug". I'm just a casual internet fan though. I hope Knight can take the pace and speed he plays with at the 2 back to the PG spot. Let him shoot first if he's pushing the ball. That seems like a good fit with Monroe and Drummond as long as he isn't fumbling the ball away a lot.
Stuckey is terrible. It doesn't matter if he is a point guard, shooting guard, combo guard, right guard, left guard, or crossing guard. The guy simply does not help the team win games.
Played pick-up hoops last night and forgot to DVR this one. When I walked in the door, my wife had The Daily Show on the tube while she was reading a book. I asked her if I could flip over to the Pistons game really quick and she said "sure". I tuned in for about 20 seconds of the 4th Q (with about 6 minutes left) and figured that Brian Hill must be battling some sort of substance abuse problem. The linup on the floor looked like something out of a Fellini film. I quickly switched the TV back over to John Stewart and tossed the remote on the couch next to Mrs. BDL. "Are they losing pretty bad?" my wife asked. "Nah, it's all tied-up but based on who's in the game, they're gonna get smoked by 10 points" I answered. I checked my phone later on in the evening and learned that I my prediction was absolutely correct.
I'm really happy.
Thanks for your status update. I was wondering how you were doing today.
12 points in the 4th quarter. Was surprised that JJ was replaced by Stuckey in the 4th given that Jonas was relatively on fire. How in the world did Calderon manage to get 16 assists in a 77 point game? That's an outstanding performance by him. The feeds to Maxiell were superb.
Separate names with a comma.


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|Joseph Coveney <email@example.com>
|Re: st: xtgee vs xtlogit
|Sat, 02 Nov 2002 23:01:47 +0900
Marie Olson posted a general question about the use of -xtgee- and -xtlogit-. ---------begin excerpted post--------- Can anyone tell me why I might choose xtgee over xtlogit when analyzing a dataset of 30 countries for a period of 41 years? My variables are the following: dep v: war/no war indeps: policy/no policy, regime score, gdp change, peace years The hypothesis is that certain types of policies are associated with the occurrence of violence, controlling for regime score, gdp fluctuations, and the number of peace years prior to the current year. ---------end excerpted post--------- Gary King (http://gking.harvard.edu/stats.shtml) has looked into statistical models for relatively rare events in similar kinds of surveys, and has made ReLogit available for Stata. As to Marie's question, I'm no expert, but -xtgee- (or -xtlogit, pa-) would seem to have certain advantages, such as the ability to use autoregressive working correlation structures. With 41 years of data, such correlations might be apparent. Parameter estimates (regression coefficients) and parameter standard errors from population-average generalized estimating equation (PA-GEE) approach, as implemented in -xtgee, robust-, are relatively resilient to misspecification of the working correlation structure. On the other hand, PA-GEE works best with lots of panels; with only 30 nations, the panel number might not be sufficient to give a lot of confidence in hypothesis testing results from -xtgee-. In addition, I was led to beleive that PA-GEE isn't so great with long panels--somewhere I had read that panel lengths of around six or fewer are ideal. A good source for advice is the user's manual. If she believes that there is important autocorrelation, it might be worth considering grouping the 41-year span into epochs of similar lengths of time and use -xtgls- on the proportion (or arcsin- transformed proportion) of time at-war in each successive epoch. With blocking the time span into epochs, -xtgee- and -xtlogit- would have fewer intervals to cope with, and might be better behaved. For these epochs, alternative approaches could be considered, such as Poisson regression (or zero-inflated Poisson regression, hopefully) for the number of wars or years at war in successive epochs. I have a concern about using number of years at peace as a predictor in Marie's statistical model of her data. It would seem that such a predictor and the response variable would be confounded -- years at peace is implied in a war/no-war dependent variable in a longitudinal survey. Last month, Wiji Arulampalam posted to the list about having difficulty getting proper convergence with - xtprobit- and she wondered whether it might have to do with the presence of a time-lagged variable in the list of predictors in her case. It seems that an analogous situation arises in Marie's case. Perhaps the use of an autocorrelation structure will obviate the need for years at peace as a predictor. Joseph Coveney * * For searches and help try: * http://www.stata.com/support/faqs/res/findit.html * http://www.stata.com/support/statalist/faq * http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/
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