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Home › Forums › General Forums › Winter Hiking › GTX socks/trail runner user…not incredibly happy….advice wanted
Dec 6, 2012 at 12:27 am #1296783
Long winded, so bear with me…
The last two winters I've been using wool socks inside Rocky GTX socks inside lightweight trail runners with gaiters. Temps in the low teens-30's. This system is part of the ultralighter's playbook, but I'm not convinced. I've got two issues to address.
My biggest issue is my right foot. The metatarsal of my big toe of my right foot causes me discomfort whenever there is ANY pressure/restriction in any direction. Barefoot? Perfectly fine. Vibram FiveFingers? Fine there as well. Most shoes, even with ample toe room, can cause me discomfort even when simply sitting with my shoes on. I think it has to do with lateral pressure against the side of my big toe, no matter how minimal. Its weird, I know, and I should get it looked at. I recently bought a pair of Merrell Orbit Glove shoes for everyday use, and those are the most comfortable shoes I've found. Its part of their barefoot series and has a 0 degree heel drop. (Highly recommended, in fact.) So, AMPLE toe box room is needed.
The second issue is the need for simplicity and temperature comfort. In my combo listed above, my feet have been kept safe, even when stepping into a partially frozen puddle. I thank the GTX socks for that. But ya know, at the end of the day, my socks are damp from sweat, GTX socks are damp on the inside from sweat and outside from tromping in cold nature, and my shoes are usually wet as well. I warm my feet up with down booties for night, but in the morning, my feet go into socks that have at least mostly dried during the night, dampish GTX socks, and frozen shoes. Yes, I could stuff them in a plastic bag and take them in my sleeping bag, but I'd rather not have to. In the morning, my toes get COLD for at least the first 45 minutes of hiking. They do warm up and sometimes feel hot, but there are times throughout the day when my toes are just frozen–like I can't feel the tips of my toes.
I'm looking to simplify, and here's my thought. It may not be as light, but possibly more comfortable:
Start with toe sock liners to keep blisters at bay. Over those, wear a VBL sock (or produce bag from the grocery store). Then, depending on conditions, a comfortable wool sock. Finally, a pair of waterproof shoes with gaiters to shed snow. Waterproof shoes would negate the need for GTX socks, which are narrow in the forefoot, and wouldn't be frozen on the inside because of my VBL liner.
I know that waterproof shoes have their own problems, like when they get wet, they stay wet. In winter, that is mitigated by gaiters, snow usually being frozen, and from the inside, the VBL layer. If I can keep the inside of my shoe dry and find a pair that doesn't irritate my funky big toe, I may wanna give that a shot.
Thoughts and comments greatly appreciated.Dec 6, 2012 at 4:14 am #1933508
Hi Travis,
I had a similar foot problem develop two years ago- severe pain along the edge of my first metatarsal almost regardless of which shoes I was wearing. Ultimately, this lead to bursitis (a sizeable lump) in that area. Switching to minimalist shoes ( I wear the trail gloves) fixed the pain, though I still have the bump as a reminder. When looking for a minimalist type shoe that could accommodate snowshoes in winter, I didn't find any perfect solutions. Ultimately, I went with the new balance MT101s, sized up a full two sizes. The sock combination I use is similar to what you were planning:
Smartwool sock liner
VBL sock (ID or baggie)
Mid weight wool sock
Sealskinz goretex
I took this whole mess of socks into my local running store and tried on all the minimalist-ish shoes with rock plates in various sizes until I found the one that was most comfortable for me.
The VBL prevents your insulation socks from dampness and really changes the game in winter hiking. If out for days, I take the VBL off at nights to air and dry my feet.
If I know I'll be wearing snowshoes the entire trip, I switch to:
Liner sock
Goretex sock
Wool sock
LE overboot
In this case, the goretex (which is not that breathable) acts as a partial VBL and the overboot keeps everything dry from the outside. This is really nice because the shoes sty dry too, so even if you leave your shoes out, nothing freezes overnight.Dec 6, 2012 at 7:53 am #1933550
Hiking MaltoBPL Member
Ike, why not This instead of using Sealskin GTX
Vbl(waterproof not used as VBL)
I will be testing this combo as soon as it decides to get cold and snowy in PA. The GTX seems like an unneeded overkill since in theory there should be no way for the insulation layer to get wet from either the inside or outside.Dec 6, 2012 at 9:53 am #1933571
It just gives me a little more versatility in the setup. When weather is above 15-20F, I usually drop the inner VBL but can still use the goretex sock as an outer waterproof layer. It's breathable enough that my feet don't get too damp.Dec 6, 2012 at 10:02 am #1933574
Hiking MaltoBPL Member
Makes sense, I was planning on the same versatility. I may end up evolving toward your setup after further trials.Dec 6, 2012 at 1:11 pm #1933614
Thanks guys. I may just have to take my "whole mess of socks" to a store and just try, try, try.
But if I were to switch out the GTX socks with a beefier, waterproof shoe and utilize a VBL to keep the inside dry, what do you think?
Ike—- do you know what caused your toe issue? I've also been re-reading your awesome Pictured Rocks in Winter trip report. We want to do a multi-day winter trek soon and we're limited to either the Porkies or Pictured Rocks. We did two nights in the Porkies last year and for the most part, things were ok, but we could have been more comfortable in camp. We were still in the process of developing our winter system and didn't have adequate head or foot insulation for in camp. This year, down hoods and booties!Dec 6, 2012 at 3:45 pm #1933654
The first question regarding the foot pain is are your shoes large enough?
I hate cold, and don't do very well in the cold. But this set up has worked well for me. I sized up my Salomon's by 1.5 sizes and my normal hiking shoe is plenty roomy. This is what I use
1. Liner sock
2. Rocky GoreTex sock
3. Wool sock
4. Salomon Comp 3D NON-GoreTex shoes
4. OR Verglas gaiters
But given my physiology, I may sweat less than most folks anyway.Dec 6, 2012 at 3:47 pm #1933656
Roger CaffinModerator
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Hi Travis
You probably know what I will say.
* Skip the GTX and VBL thing until it's sub-zero at least.
* Make sure the shoes are WIDE enough: many shoes are too narrow for some people.
* Stop worrying about feet by themselves. Instead focus on keeping your legs warm, so the blood going into your feet is still warm (or hot). Btw – tight shoes measn restricted blood flow through your feet.
* Wear gaiters – they keep snow and ice out of your socks and shoes.
CheersDec 6, 2012 at 4:43 pm #1933684
Skip the GTX and VBL thing until it's sub-zero at least
Is that Aussie or American sub zero?
:)Dec 6, 2012 at 7:11 pm #1933727
Stephen MBPL Member
@stephen-mLocale: Way up North
I was on a trip in Canada last weekend where the temps ranged from 15-35f I was toasty warm all weekend wearing trail runners (montrail mountain masochist with outset liner) Rocky Goretex socks and Darn thought winter socks and shortie event gaiters.
I did have to use my micro spikes on one of the days for better grip.
I found placing my gaiter over the trail runners at night time helped stop them freezing.Dec 6, 2012 at 8:57 pm #1933744
Up until last year, I wore a 10.5 – 11. Within the last 12 months, I've noticed that my right shoes all seem small, and so I've bumped up to an 11.5. I even have a pair of new balance MT 110 in a size 12! I can't go any bigger, else my left foot (which is about a 1/4-1/2 size smaller) will simply slop around inside the shoe. I may have to specifically search out wide shoes, which leads me to my next point…
I figured you would show up! :) Continuing on from where I left off, I have had my feet measured on a Brannock device quite recently, and I am squarely a size 11 with a regular width….except that size *feels* too small on my right foot, and my first metatarsal becomes irritated. Just so we're clear and to make sure I'm not using medical terminology incorrectly, the irritation feels very internal, in the center of the ball of my foot. The odd thing is that the new Merrells I bought that I mentioned in my first post are only a size 11 and they feel really good. I wonder if there's something about the shape of most footbeds rather than the shoe size itself is what causes discomfort. And when you say sub-zero, are we *F or *C? [on a side note, any updates on your tent?]
The problem with skipping GTX socks is that with traditional trail runners, feet and insulating socks will become soaked from snow, slush, etc. I once stepped on a snow covered puddle with a thin ice crust on it. My foot sank into icy water up to my ankle and was only saved by my GTX socks. My shoe eventually froze that night. I know you're adamantly opposed to waterproof shoes/boots, but I'm wondering if it'd be worth trying something more traditional, like a lightweight waterproof mid.
Edit: I've been frustrated with all of my footwear for nearly a year. I just spent the last hour poking, prodding, and examining my feet. I can't find any motion, pressure, or movement that irritates my big toe area, yet often by simply wearing shoes, it is irritated. Once my big toe was starting to go numb, even as i was in the car! I should bite the bullet and get it looked at…Dec 6, 2012 at 11:22 pm #1933757
"I should bite the bullet and get it looked at…"
Good idea. Sounds like something is wrong. Maybe an x-ray might help.Dec 7, 2012 at 2:29 am #1933764
Roger CaffinModerator
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
sub-zero C
CheersDec 7, 2012 at 8:44 am #1933806
I think it is pretty well accepted that bursitis in that area is caused by poorly fitting shoes. The funny thing was that up until the point that I was in constant pain, it never occurred to me that it was my shoes. I too had my feet sized with a brannock device yearly, my shoes felt fine, and I couldn't narrow it down to any one pair of shoes. I guess I thought I was just getting arthritis in my big toes. At first it was intermittent, but finally became constant. The bursitis developed a little later during training for an ultra marathon.
Happily, since switching to minimalist shoes (and after a long period of adaptation), my feet are pain free and stronger than ever. I now run 30-40 miles per week, something I could never do previously without injury.
Our early and late season snow (like yours) tends to be pretty wet when temps are in the 20-30 degree F range, and because the shoes I now use are pretty insubstantial, I do rely on goretex socks when there is snow on the ground to avoid soaking wet socks. This happened to me about a month ago during a freak snowstorm in October in the UP and it was a pretty uncomfortable couple of days.
Pictured Rocks is awesome in winter. I try not to duplicate trips, but I know I'll be going back there at least once. The ice in that place is magical. Hope you have fun.Dec 7, 2012 at 9:05 pm #1933963
I went to REI today and brought my sock layering system: the thinnest toe sock liner Injinji makes, a light-mid weight wool sock, and my GTX socks. I re-measured my foot on a Brannock device and I'm actually just under a size 11 and a regular width.
I tried on every pair of trail runners they had and all of them, even when I sized up to a 12, just weren't comfortable. My toes felt restricted and I realized that the GTX socks, in all their narrow glory, were part of the problem.
I then tried on more traditional footwear with the same socks minus the GTX ones. Literally the only pair of shoes that I felt at ease with were the Keen Targhee II Mids. They're waterproof. *GASP* O, the horror!!! :) But they also have a very wide toe box that provides the room.
I've read the replies here and in articles and other threads, of which I appreciate all of it. I think this may be a situation where I can't reason out the best option, but rather I need to broaden the scope of my trial and error, even if it means trying non-trail runners.
I still will very much welcome discussion in this thread.Dec 8, 2012 at 4:00 am #1933990
Go with what fits the best. All others considerations are of secondary importance.
Check out Will R's excellent 3 part series on footwear for winter travel if you haven't already. There's definitely a place for waterproof shoes.Dec 10, 2012 at 10:40 am #1934517
Walter CarringtonBPL Member
@snowleopardLocale: Mass.
Travis, it might make sense to see a podiatrist about this problem. Check with local running clubs for recommendations.
Altra has a nice very light hiking shoe with a wide toe box, which sadly doesn't fit me well. Vivobarefoot has a nice wide toe box; this is what I've had to use since I developed a bunion.
My Vivobarefoot shoes are not very good for winter here (cold temps down to -30F, -35C in NH mountains). The things I'm considering for very cold hiking are:
mukluks (e.g. Steger mukluks), good for very cold not good at all for wet.
NEOS overshoes over my vivobarefoot shoes.
NEOS overshoes worn with just a felt liner like Sorel boots use; this is really warm, but since the NEOS are waterproof I probably need to add a VBL to the mix.
The NEOS are reasonably lightweight and have a good lugged sole (good for snow). They work well with snowshoes, microspikes or Camp Magix 10 point crampons or Hillsound Pro Trail Crampons. I think the insulated overboots are designed to be used only with crampons or snowshoes and have a smoother sole than NEOS, so are not as good on snow without crampons.Dec 12, 2012 at 11:31 am #1935019
Andy FSpectator
@andyfLocale: Midwest/Midatlantic
Throw out the standard no waterproof footwear guideline for winter. If feet need insulation to stay warm, then that insulation needs to be dry.
I use GTX socks which are way over sized. They work, but I don't like how my feet still feel a bit compressed in them. I'm sure they're a little less warm because of it. I'm thinking of switching to lightweight GTX boots for winter–boots over trail runners because I think the extra height is needed to keep out the occasional snow under the gaiter.
For cold below 0-10F, I'm planning to get waterproof Steger mukluks, which are called Camuks. (They're intended for hunters and are camo.) Currently, I use mukluk liners inside Tingley rubber overboots (and with VBL) for this range of cold. My feet stay warm even standing around, but the overboots are a bit too floppy. I have to stuff an extra sock into the top of each one to be able to hike in them.Dec 12, 2012 at 12:14 pm #1935031
Though I was reluctant to do so, and after much thinking and observing, I've come to the realization that if I want to actually begin to fix my foot issue, I'm going to have to see a podiatrist. (Yeah, Duh!) While I can increase my comfort with certain shoes, no shoe is actually going to correct the problem. You can only keep a finger in the hole in the bottom of your boat for so long…Dec 15, 2012 at 2:57 pm #1935664
Eric BlumensaadtBPL Member
@danepackerLocale: Mojave Desert
LINERS> thin polypro sock liners
ISULATION SOX> thin neoprene dive socks (that you seam seal)
This combo will:
1. keep yer feet warm
2. keep yer boot insulation dry
At the end of the day remove neoprene sox, turn them inside out to dry.
Remove polypro liner sox and put on clean liner sox.
Been using this for literally decades. Works very well, esp for winter camping.
BTW, I DO disagree with Roger on using a VBL only in sub zero (F.) temps. I feel that you MUST keep your boots dry and a VBL is the way to do it.
Personally I use seam sealed thin neoprene Diver's sox over a pair of thin Polypro liner sox. Turn the neoprene sox inside-out to dry at night and have a clean pair of liner sox for each day. Put GTX boots or felt pack liners or ski boot liners in a stuff sack and into the foot of your sleeping bag overnight. This avoids painfully cold toes in the morning.Feb 10, 2013 at 2:21 pm #1952965
Will ElliottBPL Member
@elliott-willLocale: Juneau, AK
I've worn canvas and leather mukluks snowshoeing, with Sorel liners inside. The bindings were painful through the soft footwear. Are Steger mukluks more padded around the foot area? Are they comfortable with snowshoes?Feb 23, 2013 at 6:24 am #1957657
Jeremy GBPL Member
@gustafsjLocale: Minneapolis
I've worn Steger Mukluks quite a bit snowshoeing and they are very comfortable. Make sure you size up 1-2 sizes and go with a wide or double wide if you want to go below 0F with them.
I am also a minimalist shoe / barefoot runner and love the feel and flexibility of the mukluk. My feet have gotten a little bigger as I've transitioned to minimalist shoes. I started with a pair of Yukons in size 12 (the canvas does not breath well), and the switched to the Quetico's in 13 wide, and now just got a pair of the Arctic's in 14 double wide. I am generally a 12.5-13 size narrow depending on the shoe manufacturer to give you an idea. I partner the mukluks with a pair of RBH VBL socks and they've work great!
They are definitely only for below freezing temps and dry. Unless you get the Camuk version as mentioned previously as they are waterproof.
For wet cold weather hiking and running, I've been using a merino wool liner sock, Sealskinz as a VBL sock, and Vivobarefoot Breatho Trails. If necessary, I have enough room to add another pair of socks over the VBL sock.Mar 12, 2013 at 10:43 pm #1964981
Allen ButtsBPL Member
@butts0989Locale: Northern Rockies
I read through the previous posts but havent found the 40 below light energy overboots mentioned. I havent used them but I remember seeing them on Steve Evan's website (suluk46 dot com). From reading over some reviews I've decided on the following for my set up:
-Liner sock
-Midweight Darn Tough Wool
-(shoe, in this case probably my brooks cascadia 7's)
-Light energy over boots
This seems pretty perfect to me, although the overboots are a bit pricey….Mar 13, 2013 at 10:56 am #1965092
Randy NelsonBPL Member
@rlnunixLocale: Rockies
"I read through the previous posts but havent found the 40 below light energy overboots mentioned. I havent used them but I remember seeing them on Steve Evan's website (suluk46 dot com). From reading over some reviews I've decided on the following for my set up:
-Liner sock
-Midweight Darn Tough Wool
-(shoe, in this case probably my brooks cascadia 7's)
-Light energy over boots
This seems pretty perfect to me, although the overboots are a bit pricey…."
Yep, that's my system. Not Darn Tough but a midweight wool.Used with New Balance trailrunners. I'm very happy with it. Absolutely love the L.E. overboots.Mar 14, 2013 at 7:23 am #1965472
Mitchell RossmanMember
@bigmitchLocale: Minneapolis-St. Paul
Gortex trail running shoes are great for very cold conditions because they are warmer than normal trail shoes. But, you have to work around their tendency to trap moisture.
This is what works for me on six Arrowhead and Tuscobia winter ultras with temps from 30F to -30F.
1. coat your feet with anti-perspirant
2. change socks every 12 hours and reapply anti-perspirant
3. if you bivy at night, place a chemical heater in each shoe and plug the opening of the shoe with clothing. Shoes will be nice and warm in the morning.
For the Arrowhead, where conditions are likely to be below zero most of the time, I attach a felt overboot on the outside of the shoe. No chemical heaters are needed until the temps drop below -20F or else your feet burn up. Not too bad.
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Practical Guide to Bezier Curves
Peer Reviewed by Dave Hunt, incertia, apatriarca
math Bezier curves geometry
The Story So Far...
Bernstein Basis Polynomials
To quickly sum things up, Bezier (pronounced [be.zje]) curves use the Bernstein basis functions multiplied by control points to create a curve. A Bernstein basis function takes the form \( b_{i,n}(t) = \binom{n}{i}t^i(1-t)^{n-i} \), where i is the ith basis function and n is the degree of the Bernstein basis. The basis function form a partition of unity, which means that for any parameter value between 0 and 1, \( \sum_{i=0}^n b_i(t) = 1 \).
A Bernstein polynomial is simply where the basis functions are multiplied by coefficients and summed: \( B_{i,n}(t) = \sum_{i=0}^n c_ib_{i,n}(t) = \sum_{i=0}^n c_i \binom{n}{i} t^i (1-t)^{n-i} \), where c is the coefficient for the ith term. This polynomial is a parametric curve. To clarify, the sum in the Bernstein polynomial doesn't just add to 1 because of the coefficients.
Bezier Curves
You've probably seen this equation so many times you know it by heart: \[ C(t) = \sum_{i=0}^n \binom{n}{i} (1-t)^{n-i} t^i P_i \] N-dimensional Bezier curves can be expressed as N Bernstein polynomials where the coefficients of the Bernstein polynomials are the control points in a certain dimension. For example, a 2D Bezier curve can be expressed as 2 Bernstein polynomials, one for the x-direction and one for the y-direction:
\[ \begin{cases} x(t) &= \sum_{i=0}^n \binom{n}{i} (1-t)^{n-i} t^i x_i \\ y(t) &= \sum_{i=0}^n \binom{n}{i} (1-t)^{n-i} t^i y_i \\ \end{cases} \]
The control points are given as \( P_i = (x_i,y_i) \). There are n+1 control points for a degree-n Bezier curve. 3D and 4D curves can be expressed in this same fashion. Bezier curves can have any bounds on the t-parameter, but unless specified it can be assumed that it only varies from 0 to 1. Note: if the interval isn't between 0 and 1, the curve definition takes on a slightly modified form:
\[ C_{[t_0,t_1]}(t) = \sum_{i=0}^n \binom{n}{i} \left ( \frac{t_1-t}{t_1-t_0} \right )^{n-i} \left ( \frac{t-t_0}{t_1-t_0} \right )^{i} \]
Bezier curves allow the user to intuitively control the shape of the curve. As the control points move in a certain direction, the curve moves in that direction too. We can gain some additional control of our curve by creating rational Bezier curves.
The Cool, New Stuff
Bezier Curve Evaluation
Before we get too far into rational Beziers, let's go over evaluation of Bezier curves. We could just do the simple evaluation of Bezier curves and get our answer. Let's say we're not so naive and used the recurrence relation for the binomial coefficient (if you're not familiar with the binomial coefficient, read the Wikipedia article): \( \binom{n}{i} = \frac{n-i+1}{i} \binom{n}{i-1} \). For 3D curves, the pseudocode might go like this:
function evaluate(double t) { x = 0, y = 0, z = 0; nChooseI = 1; for(int i=0;i<controlpoints.length;i++) { u = pow(t,i); uComp = pow(1-t,i); p = u * uComp; if(i != 0) { nChooseI *= (n-i+1)/i; } x += nChooseI * controlpoints[i].x * p; y += nChooseI * controlpoints[i].y * p; z += nChooseI * controlpoints[i].z * p; } return x,y,z; }
Even with all of our tricks, we're still computing the power terms on each loop. So what can we do to get faster? Turns out there's 4 simple methods for quick evaluation:
- Use the de Casteljau method.
- Use a modified form of Horner's algorithm.
- If you want to compute the whole curve quickly, use a forward difference table.
- **Construct a set of matrices and multiply for evaluation.
de Casteljau Method
The de Casteljau method is a technique that takes advantage of the nature of the Bernstein basis functions. To start, let's say the t-parameter of a Bezier curve is between 0 and 1. If that curve is a degree-1, it represents a line between the 2 control points. If t=0, the evaluated point is P0; if t=1, the evaluated point is P1. If t=0.5, the point is halfway between the control points. The t-parameter tells us how far to go between P0 and P1. The Bezier curve takes the form \( P(t) =(1-t)P_0+tP_1 \). This is how linear interpolation is done.
Now let's say we had a degree-2 curve. The Bernstein basis functions would arise if we linearly interpolated between P0 and P1, between P1 and P2, then linearly interpolated between those 2 linearly interpolated points. The t-parameter would tell us how far to interpolate at each step. Mathematically, it would look something like this:
P(t)&=[(1-t)P_0+tP_1](1-t)+[(1-t)P_1+tP_2]t \\
P(t)&=(1-t)^2P_0+t(1-t)P_1+t(1-t)P_1+t^2P_2 \\
P(t)&=(1-t)^2P_0+2t(1-t)P_1+t^2P_2 \\
The Wikipedia article shows how the curve is constructed in this manner. Since the degree for this is 2, 2 linear interpolations are done. The higher order the polynomial, the more linear interpolations are done. This is precisely how the de Casteljau method works. Mathematically, the de Casteljau method looks like this:
The tau must be between 0 and 1. Incidentally, the de Casteljau method is useful for breaking up a Bezier curve into 2 Bezier curves. In the formula above, the points \( P_0^0,P_0^1,\dots,P_0^n \) are the control points for the Bezier curve on the interval \( (0, \tau) \) of the original curve, and the points \( P_0^n,P_1^{n-1},\dots,P_n^0 \) are the control points for the Bezier curve on the interval \( (\tau, 1) \) of the original curve.
The de Casteljau method is really nice because it's numerically stable, meaning that repeated use of it won't introduce numerical error into your calculations and throw them off.
Modified Horner's Method
The following code is the modified version of Horner's algorithm for quick evaluation. It takes advantage of the recurrence relation for the binomial coefficient as well as implements the nested multiplication like the classic Horner's algorithm:
function eval_horner(t) { u = 1 - t; bc = 1; tn = 1; tmp = controlpoints[0] * u; for(int i = 1; i < n; i++) { tn *= t; bc *= (n-i+1)/i; tmp = (tmp + tn * bc * controlpoints[i]) * u; } return (tmp + tn * t * controlpoints[n]); }
Forward Differencing
If you're evaluating a curve at evenly-spaced intervals, forward differencing is the fastest method, even faster than Horner's algorithm. For a degree-n polynomial, Horner's algorithm requires n multiplies and n adds. However, the forward differencing method only requires n additions, after a small initialization (which we could use Horner's algorithm for). There is a derivation for this method that I won't show here, but you can try this out and evaluate with Horner's and compare the methods.
This method requires n+1 curve evaluations to initiate the forward differencing. The easiest explanation of the method is to demonstrate it. Let's say that we had a degree-4 polynomial and the first 5 evaluations were: f(i)=1, f(i+1)=3, f(i+2)=2, f(i+3)=5, and f(i+4)=4. We build a table by subtracting f(i+1)-f(i), putting that value in the next row, and so on, like the following:
t & t_i & t_{i+1} & t_{i+2} & t_{i+3} & t_{i+4} & t_{i+5} & t_{i+6} & t_{i+7} \\
f(t) & 1 & 3 & 2 & 5 & 4 & & & \\
\delta_1(t) & 2 & -1 & 3 & -1 & & & & \\
\delta_2(t) & -3 & 4 & -4 & & & & & \\
\delta_3(t) & 7 & -8 & & & & & & \\
\delta_4(t) & -15 & & & & & & & \\
The method states that the number in the last row, -15 in this case, will stay constant for every column in that row. That means that if we put -15 in the next column, then add -15 to the number above it (-8), store that value in the next column on that row, and do this until we reach the value row, we can compute the value for f(i+5). Repeat for f(i+6), and all successive values for f(t). It would look something like this:
t & t_i & t_{i+1} & t_{i+2} & t_{i+3} & t_{i+4} & t_{i+5} & t_{i+6} & t_{i+7} \\
f(t) & 1 & 3 & 2 & 5 & 4 & -24 & -117 & -328 \\
\delta_1(t) & 2 & -1 & 3 & -1 & -28 & -93 & -211 & \\
\delta_2(t) & -3 & 4 & -4 & -27 & -65 & -118 & & \\
\delta_3(t) & 7 & -8 & -23 & -38 & -53 & & & \\
\delta_4(t) & -15 & -15 & -15 & -15 & & & & \\
This method is fast, but it's numerically unstable. This means that eventually, over the course of the forward difference, errors creep in and throw off the computation. This means a lot to the CAD world, but for rendering forward differencing is usually sufficient.
Matrix Evaluation
There is a matrix evaluation that can be quick as well, but that discussion is better suited to the discussion on Bezier surfaces. See the Bezier surface article here.
Rational Bezier Curves
A rational Bezier curve adds a weight to each control point. As the weight increases, the curve bends toward that control point. The formulation for a rational Bezier curve is given by:
B(t) = \frac{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, P_i \, b_i(t)}{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, b_i(t)} = \left (
\frac{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, x_i \, b_i(t)}{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, b_i(t)},
\frac{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, y_i \, b_i(t)}{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, b_i(t)},
\frac{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, z_i \, b_i(t)}{\sum_{i=0}^n w_i \, b_i(t)}
\right )
As you can see, if all the weights are 1, then the curve becomes a normal Bezier curve. Rational Bezier curves help us because:
- Rational Bezier curves can represent conic sections exactly.
- Perspective projections of Bezier curves are rational Bezier curves.
- The weights allow for additional control of the curve.
- Reparameterization of the curve is accomplished by changing the weights in a certain fashion (which I won't get into here).
Rational curves allow us to represent circular arcs (since a circle is a conic section). The image below shows what this would look like:
A degree-2 rational Bezier curve can represent an arc. The control points P0 and P2 must be on the circle, but the control point P1 is at the intersection of the extended tangent lines of the circle at P0 and P2. The weights of the control points P0 and P2 are 1, but the weight of control point P1 is cos(theta)/2, where theta is the angle of the arc. A degree-3 (cubic) Bezier curve can also represent a circular arc. Like in the degree-2 case, the endpoints P0 and P3 must be on the circle, but P1 and P2 must lie on the extended tangent lines of the circle at P0 and P3, respectively. The distance that P1 and P2 must be from P0 and P3, respectively, is given by the equation \( e = \frac{2\sin{\theta / 2}}{1+2\cos{\theta / 2}} \).
Rational Bezier Curves as 4D Bezier Curves
Yup, just like the title says, rational Bezier curves can be represented as 4D Bezier curves. I know some of you might be scratching your head and clicking to a new page, but let me explain. If we create a mapping from a 4D curve to our 3D rational curve, we could do some normal Bezier curve evaluation using the algorithms above and not have to modify them. The mapping is simple: if in 3D we have (x,y,z) and weight w, then in 4D we can express it as (X,Y,Z,W) = (x*w, y*w, z*w, w). That means that the conversion from 4D to 3D is as simple as division. This does create weird equalities, such as point (x,y,z) in 3D maps to multiple points in 4D, such as (2x, 2y, 2z, 2), (3x, 3y, 3z, 3), and so on. For our purposes, this is just fine, so just something to note. This mapping works for rational curves because, as we stated above, when all the weights equal 1, then the rational curve is identical to a normal Bezier curve. By elevating the problem to a higher dimension, we gain a lot of computational simplicity. (As an aside, a similar mapping can be made from 2D rational Bezier curves to 3D normal Bezier curves, and you can picture the 3D-to-2D mapping as the projection of the 3D curve onto the plane z=1.)
In 4D, that means a 3D rational Bezier curve takes the following form:
If you look at the top 3 equations, they're identical to the expanded numerator of the rational Bezier definition. If you notice, the bottom equation is identical to the denominator of the rational Bezier. This means that if we want to compute a 3D rational Bezier curve, we can simply elevate it to 4D space, do one more additional computation in our curve evaluation, then just do the perspective divide of the point back to 3D. In fact, we can elevate all our regular Bezier curves into 4D by making the weights 1, and then just do perspective divide to get the point back to 3D.
NOTE: Elevating rational Bezier curves makes evaluation and a few things easier, but it doesn't make all problems easier. For example, if you want the derivative of a rational Bezier curve, you can't just elevate it to 4D and then take the derivative and then project back. Derivatives of rational Bezier curves involve the quotient rule from calculus, something that a higher dimensionality doesn't simplify.
One of the primary difficulties with the Bezier formulation is that each control point influences the entire curve. Also, the number of control points is directly tied to the degree of the resulting Bernstein polynomials. Thus, a Bezier curve with 6 control points yields a 5th degree polynomial. Evaluating higher degree polynomials takes extra computation time (even with Horner's algorithm, so we want to avoid having high degree polynomials if possible. These problems have been overcome by B-splines. B-splines aren't much harder to understand once you get Bezier curves down. In the future, if there's enough response here, I'll add a basic introduction to B-splines and easy ways to generate them (not necessarily computationally efficient) and do them by hand too.
Article Updates
04 Aug 2013: Updated equations to use MathJax
05 Jun 2013: Fixed some typographical errors
28 May 2013: Initial release
A lot of the information here was taught to me by Dr. Thomas Sederberg (associate dean at Brigham Young University, inventor of the T-splines technology, and recipient of the 2006 ACM SIGGRAPH Computer Graphics Achievement Award). The rest came from my own study of relevant literature.

subset: commoncrawl


text:
Bannatyne Spa Days
A relaxing spa getaway is the gift that everyone secretly hopes for, no matter the occasion. Whether you're looking to buy a present for your loved one, parent, colleague, friend, or even your child's hardworking teacher, the gift of relaxation-and luxury-just can't be beat. Their face will light up when they realise that they're being given time to rest, recharge, and rejuvenate at one of Bannatyne's industry-leading spas and hotels.
Located conveniently in over 30 locations nationwide, Bannatyne spas are the standard for luxurious retreats-plus, every spa day they offer comes with full use of the health club facilities onsite, such as state-of-the-art gyms. But if it's just pampering you're after, you're sure to love our Spa Your Way voucher, which comes with a choice of one of 10 sumptuous treatments, ranging from a chocolate full-body massage to herbal lavender facial. The treatment your lucky recipient selects will be 55 glorious minutes long, and performed by a professional spa therapist. For a truly indulgent gift idea, we also offer a Deluxe Pamper Day for Two. This special experience will allow the recipient and a very fortunate friend to both escape for a full day of high-end and holistic care. With the 55-minute treatment of their choice, perhaps the lucky pair will even choose to enjoy one of Bannatyne Spa dual treatment rooms for a couple's massage, facial, or manicure.
Sometimes it can feel as though spa days are mostly aimed at women - but the men in your life deserve a spa break, too! If you're looking for a present for Dad's birthday, a significant work anniversary, or any other special gift for your favourite gentleman, a men's spa day can be just the thing. Buyagift and Bannatyne have him covered, with retreats at three of their locations specially designed to let him design the day of his dreams. He'll enjoy full use of the on-site health club facilities for the full day, such as a heated pool, soaking tub, and gym, before a professional massage therapist releases any leftover tension with a deeply relaxing back massage. Some of our men's spa days also come with a cleansing facial, so that he leaves looking and feeling his best.
If nothing but the best will do, we offer a full range of luxury spa experiences. You can't get closer to romance than a Twilight Spa Day for Two at Charlton House, one of Bannatyne Spa signature properties and the 5th most romantic hotel in the entire United Kingdom, according to a 2013 Times reader poll. Charlton House boasts a Moroccan-themed thermal spa, with a hydrotherapy pool sure to gently massage away your stress. There's no better way for a couple to reconnect than in the lavish environs of Bannatyne Spa beautiful pool, especially when it's followed by time in the Crystal steam room, Finnish sauna, luxurious showers, and ice fountain. To make this getaway even more elegant, a glass of Prosecco is included, to be enjoyed while lounging in one of Bannatyne Spa plush robes. With this delightful spa day, you'll give not only the gift of pampering, but make your loved ones feel like true royalty.
Sometimes, nothing will break down the tension of day-to-day life quite like getting away from it all. For a gift that is sure to be a hit, we've partnered with Bannatyne to offer over a dozen different ways to give the gift of a spa break. For a full weekend of bliss, we have an overnight break at Bannatyne Darlington Spa, which, like all of our spa days, comes with full access to spa facilities-as well as a two-course dinner and breakfast the next day. This special present is meant to be shared, so two people can immerse themselves in the beautiful grounds and classic decor of this beloved Bannatyne institution.
Since spa days are such a fabulous way for people to reconnect, why not consider hosting your next girls' getaway at Charlton House? If you're dying for a bit of a gossip with an old girlfriend, treat her-and yourself-to a day at this idyllic retreat. There's no better way to de-stress, and maybe even spill some secrets, than with this overnight respite from the real world, with your best gal pal by your side. You'll even enjoy breakfast the next morning, included in your spa day voucher.
Treat your friends-and yourself-to luxury with Buyagift and Bannatyne Spa, and give the gift of getting back to yourself.


text:
Notice: On March 31, it was announced that Statalist is moving from an email list to a forum. The old list will shut down on April 23, and its replacement, statalist.org is already up and running.
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Re: st: goodness of fit measure fir ivtobit
Yuval Arbel <firstname.lastname@example.com>
Re: st: goodness of fit measure fir ivtobit
Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:47:30 +0200
regarding my last quote: we are talking about annual data between 1897
and 1958. I guess the authors' objective was to demonstrate that high
correlation could be spurious
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Yuval Arbel <firstname.lastname@example.com> wrote:
> Nick, if we are aware of the many limitations of the R-Squares that's
> O.K. to report it. My fear is that during a presentation somebody will
> see the low R-Squared and say that given that 88 percent of the
> variance cannot be explained Anat's work is worthless, where this is
> obviously not the case (and believe me, these things happened before).
> Finally, a nice anecdote from Johnston and Dinardo's textbook
> (Econometric Methods fourth edition (1997) page 10): they quote
> Plosser and Schwert, who found a +0.91 correlation between the log of
> U.S. nominal income and the log of accumulated sunspots!!!
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Nick Cox <email@example.com> wrote:
>> That is a puzzling argument, if indeed it's an argument at all.
>> I don't think anything much in statistics ensures a _causal_
>> relationship (presumably what Yuval means here), short of independent
>> evidence on mechanism or process.
>> If a model is not that great, readers need to know. Sometimes a low
>> R-squared makes that vivid.
>> (People who want to remind me how limited R-squared is should please
>> note that I wrote the FAQ cited below, which comes decorated with
>> multiple warnings.)
>> Nick
>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Yuval Arbel <email@example.com> wrote:
>>> Anat, note that the possibility to calculate the log likelihood is
>>> there regardless of the method of estimation you are employing.
>>> In addition, I would personally rather avoid presenting an R-Squared
>>> of 0.12, particularly in these kinds of models. As is well known, high
>>> R-Squared does not ensure casual relationship and low R-Squared does
>>> not ensure lack of casual relationship
>>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Anat (Manes) Tchetchik
>>> <email@example.com> wrote:
>>>> I haven't thought about the count model, I will definitely try to run
>>>> it! thanks much!
>>>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Maarten Buis <email@example.com> wrote:
>>>>> That does not sound like censoring at all. I would think of this as a
>>>>> regular count model. There are examples on how to deal with such an
>>>>> iv-model in -help gmm-.
>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>> Maarten
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Anat (Manes) Tchetchik
>>>>> <firstname.lastname@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Austin Hi,
>>>>>> Thank you very much for your reply!
>>>>>> What I have as a dependent var. are 500 respondents' reports of the
>>>>>> number of times they travelled abroad to visit their friends and
>>>>>> relatives over the course of their adult lives. Some respondents yet,
>>>>>> who have relatives abroad, did not travel at all.
>>>>>> So the observations are censored at zero, with mean =2.2, max =50 and
>>>>>> stdev= 3.8.
>>>>>> Do you think in that case that the general methods of moments will be better?
>>>>>> Thanks much!!!
>>>>>> Anat
>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:49 AM, Austin Nichols <email@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Anat (Manes) Tchetchik <email@example.com>:
>>>>>>> You can always -predict- and compute the squared correlation of
>>>>>>> predictions with observed values:
>>>>>>> http://www.stata.com/support/faqs/statistics/r-squared/
>>>>>>> but are you sure your -ivtobit- model is justified? What is the
>>>>>>> process that results in observations being censored? I suspect you
>>>>>>> have a lower limit at zero which is actually a very low conditional
>>>>>>> mean rounded down to zero--am I right? You may be better off with a
>>>>>>> -gmm- model.
>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Anat (Manes) Tchetchik
>>>>>>> <email@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Dear statalisters,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I wonder if anyone knows any goodness of fit that is appropriate for
>>>>>>> > tobit with endogenous
>>>>>>> > variables (ivtobit). Not as in "regular" tobit, stata does not report any
>>>>>>> > goodness of fit measure, any idea how to estimate such a measure?
>>>>>>> > Any response will be greatly appreciated..
>> *
>> * For searches and help try:
>> * http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
>> * http://www.stata.com/support/statalist/faq
>> * http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/
> --
> Dr. Yuval Arbel
> School of Business
> Carmel Academic Center
> 4 Shaar Palmer Street,
> Haifa 33031, Israel
> e-mail1: firstname.lastname@example.com
> e-mail2: email@example.com
Dr. Yuval Arbel
School of Business
Carmel Academic Center
4 Shaar Palmer Street,
Haifa 33031, Israel
e-mail1: email@example.com
e-mail2: firstname.lastname@example.com
* For searches and help try:
* http://www.stata.com/help.cgi?search
* http://www.stata.com/support/statalist/faq
* http://www.ats.ucla.edu/stat/stata/


text:
Pine River-Backus Family Center March happenings
• Hidden Jewels Thrift Store: The first brown bag sale of 2013 is next week. Come in and fill up a bag of gently used clothing for $5 for yourself, your grandchildren, your family, neighbors and friends. This sale will run Wednesday and Thursday, March 6 and 7, from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. and Friday, March 8, from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. Volunteers and donations are welcome. Call Brenda for more information at 218-587-4292.
• Pine River Area Food Shelf: Come to the "Soups & Sweets" fundraiser Saturday, March 23, from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m. at the Warehouse. Suggested donations are $7 for adults, $4 for kids 12 and younger and $21 for families. All proceeds go to support the Pine River Area Food Shelf.
• The Family Centers Home Visiting Program has immediate openings for first-time expectant parents who would like some help with understanding pregnancy and supporting your child's development. Home visits are free, confidential and last through your child's 3rd birthday.
• MAC/NAPS pick up is March 12 from 2-4 p.m.


text:
Canon EOS 1100D, DxOMark review for the new Canon entry-level bodyWednesday March 16 2011 Sensor Review
The Canon EOS 1100D looks pretty much like a revamping of the EOS 1000D, adding video and a few more pixels on the sensor—a must-have for today's DSLRs. But these changes have almost no impact on the image quality. Competing DSLRs such as the D3100 offer better features (better video recording capability), and others such as the Alpha SLT 33 deliver better metrics, helped by a much better dynamic range at low ISO. Leaving the store shelves won't be so easy for the EOS 1100D.
But the fast-growing mirrorless segment, pushed by Sony Nex 5, will certainly be the most dangerous threat to these entry-level DSLRs, adding the smaller form factor to better image quality and solid video features.
Further readings for the Canon EOS 1100D, DxOMark review for the new Canon entry-level body
To provide photographers with a broader perspective about mobiles, lenses and cameras, here are links to articles, reviews, and analyses of photographic equipment produced by DxOMark, renown websites, magazines or blogs.
The EOS 1100D (Rebel T3) replaces the EOS 1000 as Canon's entry-level body. It combines a 12-megapixel sensor, Canon's 9-point AF engine coupled to the 63-zone metering system introduced by the EOS7D, and of course the now-standard Digic 4 image processor.
The review is available here.


text:
Every season a number of Arsenal players go out on loan to gain valuable first-team experience. With the 2012/13 campaign approaching, three Gunners are currently away from the Club - although just Denilson is currently involved in a league campaign.
Arsenal.com tracks their progress throughout the season. Our Arsenal's Loanees page offers an overview and below is the latest instalment of our Loan Watch.
Fluminese 2-1 Sao Paulo, August 10
Sao Paulo 1-2 Gremio, August 12
Denilson appeared twice as Sao Paulo suffered consecutive defeats against Fluminese and Gremio respectively. The midfielder played the full 90 minutes against the former before following that with another full match against Gremio on Sunday. The results leave Sao Paulo seventh in the Brazilian Serie A table.


text:
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text:
UTSA graduate student Anna Kiefer
(Photo by Marcia Mattingly)
UTSA student selected for Rotary International Ambassadorial Scholarship
By Jane Burton
Director of Alumni Programs
(April 24, 2007)--UTSA graduate student Anna Kiefer has much to celebrate. She will receive her master's degree in piano pedagogy and performance in May, and she was selected by Rotary International for an Ambassadorial Scholarship to study at Hochschule für Musik und Darstellende Kunst in Stuttgart, Germany.
Since 1947, nearly 37,000 men and women from 100 nations have studied abroad under this program. Today, it is the world's largest privately funded international scholarships program. The purpose of the Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarships is to further international understanding and friendly relations among people of different countries.
Today's headlines
- La Prensa Foundation is newest member of UTSA Lone Star Society
- UTSA alumna Jordan Kaufmann wins $50K for new stent-graft start-up
- UTSA begins new way-finding sign installation this summer at Main Campus
- USA Today: UTSA long jumper Tyler Williamson rescues three-year-old boy
Article tools
Kiefer is no stranger to study abroad. While working toward her undergraduate degree at Trinity University, she studied in Vienna, Austria, for one semester. She credits UTSA Associate Professor Elizabeth Gutierrez with steering her toward the Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarship program.
Kiefer went online to explore the scholarship and decided to apply. Her application was endorsed by the Mission Trails Rotary Club, one of 15 Rotary Clubs in San Antonio and one of more than 50 Rotary Clubs in District 5840. She was interviewed by the district selection committee and recommended to Rotary International.
When asked what she is looking forward to the most, Kiefer said, "I can't wait to be immersed into the German language and culture. There will be many festivals to attend in Stuttgart including the famous beer fest and the Christmas market."
One of the differences she pointed out about this scholarship is that it "lets you become more involved with the culture, as local Rotarians will invite us to their meetings and into their homes. We may also be involved in some Rotary projects while there."
Using the Internet, Kiefer searched the Rotary Web site to select the school where she wanted to study. Taking it one step further, she sent e-mails to the European Piano Teachers Association to obtain recommendations on her choices. Through this process she decided on Hochschule für Musik und Darstellende Kunst.
Kiefer attributes her selection to the fact that she is very adaptable and has more of a world vision for this experience. It is not just, "what's in it for me?" but rather... "how can I best represent my country and serve others?" Not too long ago, she organized a piano concert with her students to benefit wounded soldiers hospitalized in San Antonio. They raised $1,800, which surprised her. She said it was the least they could do for those who had given so much. It taught her students that they could use their talents, their personal gifts, to help others.
For more information, visit the Rotary Ambassadorial Scholarships Web site and search "Ambassadorial Scholarships." The UTSA campus contact is Jane Burton at (210) 458-5118. The district contact is Jerry Hardy at firstname.lastname@example.com. The deadline to apply locally to be endorsed by a Rotary Club is May 1, 2007, for study in 2008-2009.


text:
forum: Everything else
#11 Fri 14 Oct 05 2:55pm
- Forum champ
- Member since Thu 06 Jan 05
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Mrs D - I just want to give you a big hug!!
My mum's not with us anymore - she died when I was 17 (I'm 32 now) and now I have my own little boy - I think mums are the most important people in the world!
#12 Fri 14 Oct 05 3:23pm
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
A VIRTUAL MOM, I'd be more than okay with that too, [but as for any sex ed. questions, go ask your father! ] This just keeps getting better by the message, signing off, a smiling Mrs.D..
#13 Fri 14 Oct 05 4:12pm
- Forum champ
- From Flashing my gold
- Member since Fri 09 Jul 04
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Mrs D...there's nothing for me to say except to send a big virtual hug and kiss your way...chin up Mrs D...there's always us here to chat with...we are all a big forum family,that's how it's always been and what keeps us coming back.
Sure,we have our little spats every now and then,but which family doesn't?
Come on here more often and try to surpass my post numbers will you?
I'm a bit lonely on the 4000+++ ladder rung here....
#14 Fri 14 Oct 05 8:02pm
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
I thank you for the kind words today but, trying to catch up to you, would be like trying to catch up to Wayne Gretsky ! :shock: I already find myself, checking in on my E-mails every couple of hours, just to see if there are any notification replies from Jamie Oliver's Forums, and even if there aren't, I pop into Leftovers to check up on some very caring & funny people who have sort of taken me under their wing [and it's feels awfully nice & warm].I'll be keeping an eye out for your posts Stefanie, but I'll have to digest a good number of cocktails [BEER, for the non Canadian Layperson], before the words "Sure I Can", slip out of this mouth !Well I hope you had at least one reason to smile today, Take Care, Mrs.D.
#15 Fri 14 Oct 05 9:56pm
- Forum champ
- Member since Fri 11 Feb 05
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Nice to meet you Mrs D... dont even try to compete with Stef...! unless you have A LOT of time on your hands...
Look after yourself and come back and talk banter any day!
#16 Fri 14 Oct 05 11:12pm
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Well, well, well Kaff, you've certainly left a lot to the imagination. Maybe one day, you might fill in the blanks for me. Until next, I wish only the best, Mrs.D..
#17 Fri 14 Oct 05 11:20pm
- Forum champ Occupation Save a tree, eat a Beaver
- From the boonies
- Member since Tue 22 Jun 04
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Welcome to the forums...Kitten is most definatley a lovely lady!...I'm also from Canada....you are way up north...i've been to Thunderbay years and years ago when i had family there...i remember visiting the amethyst mines and the sleeping giant island!!!Its a nice town to live in! But now that family lives in Red Lake and Kenora...too darn cold and too long of a drive to visit! Do you ever head south? Hope your enjoying it here! And you'll find your post numbers will go up quite abit...this place is addicting!!!
hugs and zerberts to you
#18 Fri 14 Oct 05 11:59pm
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Just as I think the messages might start to slow down, another person from Kittenclaws list sends a long distance hug. Is this a virtual support group, or just a lot of very sweet souls, either way, I'll take it, lock,stock & barrel :!: Have a wonderful weekend Mercedes, talk to you soon,.. Mrs.D.. [ p.s. ], It's a very small world, my husband has family in Red Lake too, must take a little break now, before I have to call for the "jaws of life" to pry my fingers off this keyboard, but really, the medication I have to take is starting to work on the pain, but it also is making me a little drowsey. Time for a quick lye down, So take care and Thank You once again,..Mrs.D.. :
#19 Sat 15 Oct 05 12:06am
- Forum champ Occupation Save a tree, eat a Beaver
- From the boonies
- Member since Tue 22 Jun 04
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Mrs D..i fear you may change your mind on the "sweet soul" comment....just you wait!...i'm known as the potty mouth princess! Hope the pills take the pain away and have a good snooze! And will always have Red Lake
#20 Sat 15 Oct 05 8:41am
- Forum champ
- Member since Mon 09 Aug 04
Re: A message for the Oliver Family.
Hello mrs.D! Cheers back from the LOST thread.
I was indeed included on kittenclaws list and that makes me feel real happy because they are the kindest, funniest and most honest people around.
Have a nice weekend!


text:
Rescued CRR horse gives birth to colt
Pregnant mare one of four horses seized in raid
CROOKED RIVER RANCH, Ore. - A colt was born at a Terrebonne horse-rescue operation early Thursday morning, just hours after its mother was seized from what authorities call a neglectful owner.
The mare was one of four horses taken into custody by Mustangs to the Rescue, an equine shelter.
"He appears very healthy. He is small, and that's really typical of a mare that is struggling to get enough nutrients," said the organization's spokeswoman, Kate Beardsley. "They give it all to the baby. The baby comes out healthy, but small."
Beardsley said the colt was about 20 pounds lighter than a typical foal, and she believes it is likely he was born a couple days early, due to the stress of moving his mother from her owner's home the day before.
A Crooked River Ranch man was arrested Wednesday on animal neglect charges at his home as Jefferson County authorities seized three mares and a stallion who they say were starving to death.
"Two of them are in critical condition, and two of them appear to be pregnant," said sheriff's Deputy Melody Zistel.
The raid was the culmination of a year of investigation, following tips from neighbors and people passing by.
Sheriff Jim Adkins described Jonathan Michael Vance, 31, as a man who refused to give up his horses or accept help to properly care for them. He said a second suspect, Melody Ann Barnes, 30, was not home at the time of the raid but will be contacted and arrested later.
Adkins said the sheriff's office "tries to work with and educate animal owners about proper care for their animals, and only seize animals as a last resort."
When NewsChannel 21 accompanied deputies to Vance's home off SW Deer Crossing Place, it was apparent most of the horses were emaciated.
"You can see the bone lines -- the protruding ribs, protruding hip bones -- that's not a good sign," Zistel said.
Zistel added that she had been out to Vance's house several times through the year, and sometimes he would have different horses.
"In the past, he has surrendered several horses -- not to us, but a private deal," she said. "And since then, he has acquired more horses, and this time he did not want to give them up."
Zistel said they got a tip a week ago the horses were again in dire condition. A vet confirmed they were in bad shape, and a Terrebonne rescue group stepped up to help.
"Our job is to safely remove the horses and put them in a place they can be nursed back to health safely," said Mustangs to the Rescue spokeswoman Kate Beardsley.
Beardsley said the organization currently has about 40 horses, and will help their new additions beef up before adopting them out.
"We actually put them in roles of service, such as packing or forest patrol, things like that," Beardsley said. "And then they get skills, and people get to see these animals can be worthwhile companions, and then they get adopted."
A sad sight now that Beardsley says soon will be replaced with glossy coats and healthy horses.
Two goats were found at the home, along with three dogs inside, but they were left there when the sheriff's office found them to be in good health and with adequate access to food and water.
Adkins said state Child Protection Services also was notified because of the "deplorable living conditions observed around the residence and inside the home."
No children were home at the time of the raid, and they were believed to be at school, the sheriff said.
If you would like to help Mustangs to the Rescue care for these horses and other horses it rescues, you can reach the organization (541) 350-2406 or by searching for their page on Facebook.
You can also donate directly to their account through Cinder Rock Veterinary Clinic or Oregon Feed and Irrigation, both in Redmond.
Beardsley says the rescue can always use cash donations, as well as donations of feed, hay, halters and other horse supplies.
"The sheriff's office takes these cases very seriously and thanks the community for their help and support with this investigation," Adkins said. "We encourage anyone able to help offset the financial costs for caring for these horses to please make a donation."


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SAN FRANCISCO, CA í' APRIL 25, 2005 í' Today Ubisoft, one of the world's largest videogame publishers, announced that it is developing Prince of Persiaí'® 3 (working title) for the PlayStationí'®2 computer entertainment system, the Xboxí'® video game system from Microsoft, the Nintendo GameCubeí¯Â¿Â½ and the PC-CD Rom. Scheduled for release in the second half of 2005, Prince of Persia 3 is the third volume in the award-winning Prince of Persiaí'® franchise. Blending the best features from the first two installments (Prince of Persia: The Sands of Timeí¯Â¿Â½ and Prince of Persia Warrior Withiní¯Â¿Â½) with the talent, vision and ingenuity of Ubisoft's development teams, Prince of Persiaí'® 3 will enliven the franchise with a vitality í' and plenty of unexpected twists í' that will impress and satisfy long-time fans and newcomers alike. Prince of Persiaí'® 3 will be showcased at the Electronic Entertainment Expo May 18 - 20 at Ubisoft's booth, #1300 in the South Hall of the Los Angeles Convention Center.
"Prince of Persiaí'® 3 promises to be THE best instalment in the legendary franchise," said Tony Kee, vice president of marketing for Ubisoft. "By combining two playable characters in a masterly balanced gameplay, with the perfect mix of acrobatic moves and a compelling storyline, the Prince of Persia will appeal to both Sands of Time and Warrior Within fans alike. The Prince is back to reclaim his kingdom, and he has a few surprises in storeí¯Â¿Â½"
About Prince of Persiaí'® 3 (working title):
The Prince of Persia, a seasoned warrior, returns from the Island of Time to Babylon with his love, Kaileena. Instead of the peace that he longs for, he finds his homeland ravaged by war and the kingdom turned against him. The Prince is rapidly captured and Kaileena has no choice but to sacrifice herself and unleash the Sands of Time in order to save him. Now cast out on the streets and hunted as a fugitive, the Prince soon discovers that past battles have given rise to a deadly Dark Prince, whose spirit gradually possesses him. Game features include:
í¯Â¿Â½ Play and master two distinct characters: Wield the powers and weapons of two master warriors with different combat styles, attitudes, and histories.
í¯Â¿Â½ Choose your way to fight: Master the expanded Free-Form Fighting system to destroy enemies in your own style; strangle enemies from afar with the deadly Daggertail; or surprise them with full-speed one-shot kills using a brand new stealth art. The choice is yours.
í¯Â¿Â½ Battle freely through Babylon: Dominate enemies on the perilous rooftops, dodge through chaotic streets, and ambush pursuers in dark, underground passageways.
í¯Â¿Â½ Immerse yourself in a dramatic story: Experience unparalleled depth in storytelling as you fight your way through a twisting tale filled with adrenaline, tension and discovery.
í¯Â¿Â½ Manipulate time to surprise enemies: Execute powerful attacks against entire armies by slowing down or rewinding time, or surprise them by using some all-new Sands of Time powers.
í¯Â¿Â½ Experience a masterful blend of gameplay: True to the Prince of Persiaí'® franchise, the game provides a variety of action combat, agility and story-driven puzzles í' all masterfully blended together into a rich gaming experience.


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Event Highlights Solutions for Aero Structural Parts
The thin walls and deep pockets common to structural aerospace parts make machining challenging. A recent event at Makino's U.S. headquarters highlighted solutions for effectively machining such tricky aluminum and titanium components.
On April 30, I attended an event Makino hosted its U.S. headquarters in Mason, Ohio that highlighted solutions for effective production of aerospace structural components. The event featured a number of machining demonstrations for both aluminum and titanium components.
For example, the company's T2 and T4 machines are well-suited for big titanium components. The T2 offers six-axis positioning and 5-axis contouring capabilities to reduce the number of setups and refixturing time which helps ensure feature-to-feature accuracy. The larger T4 is effective machining parts with thin walls and floors, deep pockets, and hard-to-reach corners with its ±110 degrees of A-axis travel and rigid construction.
Visitors were also able to see a number of five-axis machining demonstrations for aluminum structural components, including Makino's MAG and DP series machines. The company also highlighted what it calls "right size" machines for smaller aerospace structural components. One example is the a61nx-5E, which is a 24,000-rpm five-axis horizontal machine built on a 500-mm HMC platform. At the event, it was machining an aluminum landing edge segment, demonstrating one-shot wall finishing, high speed floor finishing and material removal rates as high as 300 cubic IPM. The machine features an atypical pallet changing system for its twin, direct-drive rotary tables that brings effective ergonomics to five-axis machining. This video shows a pallet change whereby a vertically fixtured pallet is removed from the workzone, rotated 180-degrees and presented horizontally to an operator. At the same time, the pallet on the opposite rotary table is loaded into the machine.
The event also featured a presentation by representatives of Exacta Aerospace, which has recently integrated Makino's MPMax shopfloor data visualization and management software. In 2012, the shop began a process of accounting for all available spindle time and categorizing downtime for analysis. It purchased MPMax to aid in data collection and reporting of spindle utilization. For example, a shop monitor (like the one shown below) reports real-time status of machines with numerous live data points. In addition, status charts offer a quick snapshot of how machines are being utilized so managers can get a good visual about utilization gaps over periods of time.
Exacta's mantra is "if you can't measure it, you can't manage it." It feels its approach to tracking spindle utilization will help with costing and planning because utilization levels are no longer assumed. Plus, live, auto-updating reports will provide increased visibility and accountability while keeping the focus on continuous improvement.


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Wireshark 1.6.5
What Is the FileHippo Safety Guarantee?
We know how important it is to stay safe online so FileHippo is using virus scanning technology provided by Avira to help ensure that all downloads on FileHippo are safe. The program you are about to download is safe to be installed on your device.
# The following bugs have been fixed:
* "Closing File!" Dialog Hangs.
* Sub-fields of data field should appear in exported PDML as children of the data field instead of as siblings to it.
* Incorrect time differences displayed with time reference set.
* Wrong packet type association of SNMP trap after TFTP transfer.
* SSL/TLS decryption needs wireshark to be rebooted.
* Export HTTP Objects -> save all crashes Wireshark.
* Wireshark Netflow dissector complains there is no template found though the template is exported.
* DCERPC EPM tower UUID must be interpreted always as little endian.
* Crash if no recent files.
* IPv6 frame containing routing header with 0 segments left calculates wrong UDP checksum.
* IPv4 UDP/TCP Checksum incorrect if routing header present.
* Incorrect Parsing of SCPS Capabilities Option introduced in response to bug 6194.
* Various crashes after loading NetMon2.x capture file.
* Fixed compilation of dumpcap on some systems (when MUST_DO_SELECT is defined).
* SIGSEGV in SVN 40046.
* Wireshark dissects TCP option 25 as an "April 1" option.
* ZigBee ZCL Dissector reports invalid status.
* ICMPv6 DNSSL option malformed on padding.
* Wrong tvb_get_bits function call in packet-csn1.c.
* [UDP] - Length Field of Pseudo Header while computing CheckSum is not correct.
* pcapio.c: bug in libpcap_write_interface_description_block.
* Memory leaks in various dissectors.
* Bytes highlighted in wrong Byte pane when field selected in Details pane.
# Updated Protocol Support
* BGP, BMC CSN1, DCERPC EPM, DCP(ETSI) DMP DTLS GSM Management, H245 HPTEAM, ICMPv6, IEEE 802.15.4 IPSEC IPv4, IPv6, ISAKMP KERBEROS LDSS NFS RLC, RPC-NETLOGON RRC RTMPT SIGCOMP SSL SYSLOG TCP, UDP, XML ZigBee ZCL
# New and Updated Capture File Support
* Accellent 5Views, AIX iptrace, HP-UX nettl, I4B, Microsoft Network Monitor, Novell LANalyzer, PacketLogger, Pcap-ng, Sniffer, Tektronix K12, WildPackets {Airo,Ether}Peek.


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Changes related to "San Francisco"
This is a list of changes made recently to pages linked from a specified page (or to members of a specified category). Pages on your watchlist are bold.
23 May 2017
|Membership (diff | hist) . . (-2) . . Kelly Santalucia (talk | contribs)


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Tennessee doctors required to check database before writing prescription
KINGSPORT, Tenn. - More than 1,000 people died in 2011 from drug overdoses in Tennessee.
"While the traditional illegal drugs like cocaine and marijuana and meth are always going to be a problem, the prescription drug problem far out weights any issues we have with any illegal drugs," said Kingsport Police Officer, Tom Patton.
Patton said prescription pill abuse has been on the rise for nearly five years. "They're not coming from robberies or thefts as much as people who are selling their prescriptions," said Patton.
Patton said many people are getting pills to sell by going from one doctor to the other getting large amounts of pain medication, in a short amount of time. Doctor William Kyle explained he sees it all the time. "At least four or five people everyday are either blatantly seeking drugs or they have some kind of pain that doesn't look legitimate," he said.
The Tennessee Health Department is now requiring doctors to look up in the state's substance controlled monitoring database, so they can see when and where the person was last prescribed, keeping them from buying large quantities of anything with upload or benzoic. "Opinions being lortabs, hydrocodone, percocets, being the benzos, valium and all of those misused drugs," said Kyle.
The department believes this will help bring down the number of problems that come with misuse of prescribed drugs, but Patton tells me he supports the new plan, but doesn't think it will help for long. "The problem is so widespread that it's going to be more of a hurtle than a hindrance," he said.
We learned from the Health Department that they are most concerned about women who are in the childbearing age because of the high number of babies born dependent on legal or illegal drugs during pregnancy.
If you would like more information on this, click here.
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Large and spacious room for one or two people .... you also have to pay the second room in large apartment Cinecitta neighborhood.
Size110 m²
Floor No.5(with elevator)
- Internet/WiFi
- Kitchen
- Smoking allowed
- Elevator in building
- Lockable room
- Balcony/terrace
- Breakfast
Accommodation summary
|dell 'aeroporto, 00175 roma, Italy
|Property type
|Private room
|Property ID
|Acceptance rate
|Response time
|A few hours
|Calendar updated
|More than half a year ago
Situated in a way that allows Tuscolana shopping, which relives the cinematic atmosphere of the nearby Cinecittà.Situato in the mansion with ascensore.Ben connected by metro (15 minutes to get to downtown) and the airports of Fiumicino and Ciampino. My willingness to transfer payment from airports at home and vice versa. Very close to the University of Tor Vergata and to the same hospital.
House rulesgreater freedom, no restrictions except the normal rules of morality and civilization.
|Price for > 2 guests
|$ 24 US per guest/night extra
|Maximum nights
|10 nights
|Check-in after
|On arrangement
|Check-in before
|On arrangement
|Check-out before
|On arrangement
|Cancellation Policy
Reviews of this property
For the second time I have been staying with his apartment, it was the same experience I got....you will never regret of this wonderful apartment and I consider it as my second house...Highly recommend this apartment...a FIVE STAR!!!!! I will come back again without hesitation.....God bless you Antonio!!! See you again! my friend!
For the last 5 days we have stayed, Antonio is very kind and hospitable. It was an awesome experienced. Apartment is very nice and perfectly clean all throughout. He has a lot of sense of humour and great to chat with. Well organize in minding your needs in his domain. We sometimes invite us and join him for a dinner with his traditional Italian food and absolutely gorgeous. We don't have any problem coming in and out as He gave us spare keys with the liberty to come back in anytime as we would like. Very peaceful place and highly recommended to those who wish to stay in this lovely apartment. If you are looking for a privacy and affordable place don't hesitate to take and call Antonio.
Clean room in frienly residence. Antonio is a nice and caring person, not to well speaking his foreign languages though. Kitchen and devices are at your service, sheets and towels are provided. A 10 minutes walk brings you at the Metrostation with direct lines to the most important places of interest. The neighbourhood shows the real Roman life, with cheap shops, bars and pizzerias around the corner.Transfer from/to the airport is an option, arrangements hereabout are to be made with Antonio. You won't regret your stay. Highly recommended!
The location of this room is great. Although it is not located in the center of Rome, it is very easy to reach by metro (just 10-15 minutes from Termini station). Antonio is a very nice man, and the house in which the room is situated is calm and spacious.
A big problem, however, was the bed. The bed had an extremely thin mattress (!) and just a very thin sheet as a blanket. The bed (the wooden frame underneath the mattress) broke twice... If you are looking for a goodnight sleep, I would not recommend this room.
nice apartment with big bathrooms. it was easy to take a metro form this apartment, antonio is very friendly and helpful. I forgot my iPad at his place. I was so worried, I´m so grateful that he could help me to get it back. thank you so much for that.
Anthony and 'a person gentle and polite, very helpful.
The room and the bathroom clean.
everything perfect.
thanks Antonio
Antonio e' una persona gentile ed educata , molto disponibile .
La camera e il bagno puliti.
tutto perfetto.
grazie Antonio
Very nice, and comfortable,-- liked the freedom of a nice kitchen for cooking...
Looking forward to the next time...
Very nice - clean, friendly, perfect ..........
I really like being in the 'apparition of Antonio ...
(Excuse me, my barbaric Italian)
Very nice,-- clean, friendly , perfect..........
Mi piace molto, essere nel' apparimento dell Antonio...
(Scusi, per mia italiano barbarico)
E'stato molto piacevole soggiornare in questa struttura.Carino ,molto accogliente ,pulito ma soprattutto molto famigliare.Antonio il proprietario è davvero molto disponibile a qualunque esigenza.Spero di poterci tornare e trovare posto...Grazie di tutto!!!Lo consiglio vivamente!!!
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Posted on
March 9 2013
Event Information: http://www.coppercolorado.com/winter/events_and_activities/calendar/1396399688
Faces Of Copper showcases different employees from around the resort, giving you an inside look at the people behind the service. The next video in the series follows Ski Patrol member, Jamie Baker, as she covers some of the factors that go into safely opening new terrain.
More Information
The "Harlem Shake" at Copper Mountain, Colorado - our take on the viral video circulating the internet.
A look at the 2012-2013 season so far at Copper Mountain.
A look around Copper Mountain Resort during a 15" storm.
53% off your vaction. Kids ski, eat and tube free. Parents welcome!
©2016 Copper Mountain Resort, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Copper is closed for the 2016/17 season. Summer begins June 9th!


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Oh, that is gorgeous! :)
Welcome to the Quilting Board!
That is georgeous! I love the colors. Good job!!!!!
How pretty! Merry Christmas and thanks for sharing!
-Pat :) :) :)
You did a nice job on this topper it will good on your table.
I love your topper, the colours are georgous looks like a Connecting Threads Kit to me - go on put me out of my misery?????
Wishing you a Merry Christmas.
Really cute topper! You deserve to do one for you!
I love it, too!!! Where did you find the pattern for it? I'd love to make one, too!
Very nice.
Oh I like this, glad you got it finished in time for this Xmas Sulabug, Merry Christmas!! :D


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The Shelby County boys' basketball team exploded for an 18-0 run at Eminence Tuesday before coasting to a 70-42 win district win.
The run to start the game was a big emphasis for SCHS head coach Mike Clark.
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I have been running AR's for years.. 1989 I had my first one built..by a friend of mine..a Pre-ban Bushmaster XM-15e2S.. .. I have more than 10 and less than 20 AR's.. makers include Bushmaster, PWA, LRB, Rock river arms, Armalite, and half a Colt.. the better half.. I have them in calibers 223/556, 9mm, 6mm223, 5.45X39, 308/762X51MM. (I had one in 7.62X39 but it got sold because it was Olympic arms and did not work..)
I don't have any with Rails...lights or lasers..other than a few (hand guards with rails built into them) for the forward PG.. I'm really not a bells and whistles type.. I like the K.I.S.S. idea.. The point I'm trying to make is! if you are depending on your rifle to save /defend your life.. not as a range toy..etc.. these two accessories may be for you.. One of the weakest points on the AR-15/M16 design is the small extractor.. The O ring is (not the stock rubber piece under the extractor spring).. a separate piece/ the D fender type O ring..it is designed to put more pressure.. on the extractor to keep it from slipping off the rim for a case and leaving a fired case in the chamber which is just about the most serious malfunction a M16 can have.. along with a ruptured cases because your rifle is now a club.. the receiver rug is a small piece of rubber that fits under the fire control..parts.. it prevents a blown primer or any debris from wedging it's self under the trigger stopping the rifle firing cold.. I've HAD both malfunctions along with ruptured cases. I always have a ruptured cases tool also.. these two accessories are worth their weight in gold.. if you want to keep your rifle from going down is a fight.. I'm not selling these and or I have no Stock or anything.. I just like the product.. (and they are not expensive..( like under $20 for both) If I used my AR for business I'd consider a Light as a useful tool also.. I run the OEM three standard gas ring.. the McFarlin gas ring has no advantage that I can see and costs 10 times as much.. B2B


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SPOILERS LEAKED WATCH OUT![ Edited ]
Watch out people Eurogamer and IGN reports that someone has cracked the demo that comes with God Of War Ascension. They've found out details from the plot like the fate of the characters and the ending. Be very careful in the internet from now on http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/02/the-last-of-us-ending-spoilers-leaked?abthid=518234e2c4a6b4f2...-
The IGNs story itself doesn't contain spoilers but i'd advise to not read the comment section.
Re: SPOILERS LEAKED WATCH OUT!
I'm pretty sure I have seen the stuff a while back before a mod removed it but I need to see it again. I wanna know what I might have missed. I don't remember seeing a full list of the weapons tho. I'm going hunting for the leaked info again. I'm not the type to get surprised at what happens in games or movies so seeing or reading the ending doesn't bother me. I'd rather have someone tell me what is going to happen. lol I won't spoil anything for you guys by the way.
Re: SPOILERS LEAKED WATCH OUT![ Edited ]
This is really messed up. Why do people think there is a need to dig spoilers out of game files....... and even if they are that curious and cant wait 6 more weeks then just keep the spoilers to themselves............
So many people will be spoiled now that will kill their fun when they play the game. This is seriously messed up.
Re: SPOILERS LEAKED WATCH OUT![ Edited ]
Re: SPOILERS LEAKED WATCH OUT![ Edited ]
Yeah i remembered those gun leaks and stuff but didn't know about the plot leaks... This is one of the bad sides of the internet... Have to blame sony for this tho'.. Why put a locked demo to a game that comes many months before the other?


text: Sushi Roku may be outside of your area. Please enter your delivery address to check availability Do you need any... Napkins & Utensils Continue to checkout Sushi Roku Back to menu Your order refresh Sushi Roku Your bag is empty Edit Delivery address Please enter delivery address Edit Delivery time N/A* Add someone to this order Tuna Belly (Toro) Sushi Add instructions? Special instructions Label for x $18.00 or Cancel


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Caught my interest, related to honeybee winter clusters
Caught my interest, related to honeybee winter clusters
I'm totally baffled what useful information they hoped to get by killing the cluser with cyanide and measuring the temps as it died. I can't think of what practicle use that information would be.
Otherwise it's a very interesting study.
I agree with Michael. I can't see how killing the bees would make any difference in this study. Maybe if they had ran out of food or something like that but, cyanide? It was a intrestion artical though.
I thought that the reason to kill the hive was to measure the density and size of the cluster.
I thought the really cold tests, -45 F, were intriguing. As were the experiments with upper and lower entrances. Seeing the cluster die off from cold or starvation or mites might be useful info, but I haven't every lost a hive to cyanide yet.
The incidence of Nosema from long cold spells was also interesting. I wonder how much of it is lack of cleansing flights.
I think it is especially interesting in how little circulation of air occurs within the hive. To me it helps explain the sensitivity to moisture or humidity in the winter. Also why as long as there is sufficient ventilation SBBs don't seem to make much difference one way or the other for overwintering.
My take away after spending quite a while trying to plow through the research and understand their hypotheses was that a warmer hive or a larger cluster simply allows the cluster more ability to move around to food stores. The fact they can stand temperatures below -45 for long periods of time is amazing.
Proof that strong wintering colonies can move food while in cluster.
THANKS for posting the link to this fascinating research!
The sharp temp difference between the cluster surface and the air just an inch or so away means little or no air circulation within the hive. So an open SBB or large bottom entrance in a wind exposed area could cause problems for the bees. Maybe a small top entrance is really all that's needed.


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i was at the house oct 1. pm and saw one of my hives swarming. they went on to a low bushy oak tree anout 50 ft. from there hive. at first there was one cluster about a qt. size and one almost a gal. size. when i got every thing ready to catch them they were all together in the gal. size group. i was able to sit a nuc about 6" under them. i pushet the most in to the nuc and the rest went in within 15 min. i put the lid on and left the entrance open. the next morning i closed them up and moved them to another yard about 15 miles away.
i have a question. how long do i have to leave them there before i can take them back to my yard?


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Required Study Materisl for CEHv.5
I am preparing for CEH certifications. Can anyone upload the latest studymaterials.
General discussion on certifications not mentioned in sub-boards of the main categories below.
boney wrote:u shouldnt ask it here. as this is a forum for hackers !
EmanoN wrote:boney wrote:u shouldnt ask it here. as this is a forum for hackers !
Boney, Boney. Actually this is a site for IT professionals looking to acquire another certification which possibly might help their career. Some might actually learn the material and others might just take a short cut from a "brain dump" and memorize answers in order to acquire that all important cert.
EmanoN wrote:What? Did I post something not true? Isnt this a place for people going after certs? I dont presume and I am basing my opinion from the posts I have read. Not sure what else I can go by because I broke my crystal ball a few weeks ago. Dont take offense dude.
I dont mean to step on your toes and I was hoping this was an open forum to discuss opinions and ideas rather than nicely being asked to leave or perhaps my posts deleted.
ChrisG wrote:i'd be happy for you to do what you listed in the 2nd paragraph.
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