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Home › Forums › Gear Forums › Gear (General) › A look at an old Jansport external frame pack
Mar 1, 2013 at 7:55 pm #1299868
Another thread drifted to external frame packs and I came across an old Jansport yesterday and thought it would be interesting to look at it with 21st Century eyes.
I don't know the exact model on this one. I did find a label that identified it as a medium size.
Specs and features:
Tubular aluminum with machined aluminum joints. Approximately 33.5" tall and 14.25" wide. It has two cross bars plus the bag mounting frame. The bag mount mounts via two machined blocks and spring/ball detents. The lower cross bar is fixed at 14.5 inches above the bottom of the frame. The lower section of the frame is a U-shaped section of tubing that completes the rounded rectangle shape of the frame and attaches with the same pins used for the lower attachment of the shoulder straps. There is a top cross bar that forms the upper attachment for the shoulder straps and can be adjusted using sliding aluminum blocks with cam-action locks
The shoulder straps are closed cell foam padding with nylon fabric covering and molded plastic mounts at each end, attaching to the frame with aluminum pins and split rings. The top mount can be adjusted for width by moving the pins to one of two holes drilled in the top crossbar. The crossbar is adjustable to suit torso height. There is no sternum strap on this version, although I have seen other models with one.
Back band:
There is a 6" tall soft mesh and foam back pad held in place with web straps and ladder locks. I recall seeing back bands that were a plain sheet of mesh, almost like window screen. The back band keeps the user's back from sinking too far into the frame and making contact with the tubing. It hits me at the lower ribs, with the lower edge about 2.5" above the waist belt. It can be adjusted for tension and height; the pack back mounts and the center cross bar form some limitations to the placement of the back band.
Waist belt:
It feels like open cell foam with a Cordura-like covering. There are 1-7/8" straps sewn to it that couple in a big side-release buckle. It is attached to the frame sides using a horizontal 3" wide webbing band sewn to the back of the padding. There are no adjustments on this band; it simply slides onto the tubing when the bottom section has been removed. There is a 1.5" webbing strap that runs from the horizontal band and goes around the bottom of the frame and is adjusted with a ladder buckle. There are two 3/4" webbing strap that run from the top of the horizontal band up to the middle cross bar. This arrangement allows the waist belt to slide up and down the frame rails to adjust to the user's torso length.
Pack bag:
Coated nylon pack cloth, measuring roughly 21" tall by 13" wide and 8" deep, totaling 2184 cubic inches or about 36 liters. I estimate that the top side pockets are 2 liters each and the lower side pockets look like simple water bottle pockets, so I would add another liter for each, for a total capacity of about 42 liters (I think I'm being very conservative with that). The left top side pocket has panel behind, forming a sleeve to allow long poles to be carried. The main pack body has two panel-loading compartments with zippered openings; the upper compartment is about 31" tall and the lower one is 8" tall. There are no openings between the compartments. There is a flat zippered pocket on the door of the lower compartment with a mesh outer panel. There are four plastic loops on the bottom of the bag to attach web straps to lash on large bulky items like a sleeping bag, pad, or tent. There are also two lash tabs on the top panel for the same purpose. There is a single compression strap across the top compartment with a side release buckle.
The pack bag mounts to the frame using the U-shaped tubing bar that snaps into the top aluminum blocks and runs through a channel sewn in the top edge of the bag. There are also three Velcro straps on each side that simply wrap around the side frame rails. The bulk of the weight is carried by the top bar, much like a curtain.
The pack weighs 59 ounces (3lbs 11oz) total. The bag is 19 ounces and the frame with suspension is 40 ounces (2lbs 8oz). I didn't tear it down further to get the weight on the bare frame or suspension parts.
What is good about this pack:
My general impression is that the design is very simple with a minimum of buckles and hardware.
I think the tubing mount for the top of the bag is genius. By hanging the weight from the top, there is no need for compression straps or reinforcements to keep the bag from collapsing on itself. The rest of the bag mounting (which amounts to about 24" of 1/2" Velcro) is mostly to stabilize it on the frame and the bag simply hangs like a curtain. The pack bag is basically a big cube with a couple panel loading compartments. There is no padding, just the coated pack cloth and one mesh pocket. The side pockets are very straightforward zippered compartments.
The frame is light and relatively low tech aluminum tubing, with no apparently exotic materials or manufacturing techniques. The cam/lock blocks for the shoulder strap top bar are probably the most complex parts to manufacture. There are no welds in the design. Most of the plastic hardware can be found in any catalog. The top mounts for the shoulder straps are the only specialized plastic parts and don't look complex to manufacture.
Although the pack bag is about 46 liters, the carrying capacity extends far beyond that. There is 5" between the top of the bag and the top of the frame and the load could be extended past that. It looks perfect for placing a bear can or a tent. There is an 11" space between the bottom of the bag and the frame bottom. It was common to stow a sleeping bag, pad or tent (or all three) horizontally in that spot.
What can be improved with modern materials and techniques:
Frame materials: I think aluminum has a great cost/weight ratio, but titanium and carbon fiber tubing certainly come to mind. It could be pulled off with square tubing too.
Smaller frame size: Dana Design made an external frame pack where the frame closely followed the perimeter of the pack bag, avoiding the extensions found on this Jansport. If you don't need to lash bulky items to the frame, dropping the top of the frame would clean things up a bit. The current Jansport Carson model has a much larger (80-90L)pack bag that extends to the top of the frame, but the bottom is much the same as the example here. I think that begs for a top heavy load, not to mention encouraging the user to attempt to fill all that space. It can catch on brush and makes crawling under a log difficult. The bottom frame extension does help protect the bottom of the pack and it gets that massive load up another 11"-12" towards picking it up to get it on your back. Some of that space is used for torso adjustment, but not nearly that much. This frame could be shortened 8" without changing the suspension geometry.
Pack bag materials and design: it begs for Dyneema or Cuben fabric. There is the panel/top load debate and I would keep to the panel loading, but with a 1/2 height zippered door and a good stretchy mesh pocket on the lower half for wet gear and daily trail goodies. I would drop the upper side pockets and re-work the lower pockets into good water bottle carriers. I would definitely keep the bag top mounting bar.
Suspension: I take advantage of newer 3D mesh and padding materials and construction techniques, using more ergonomic designs. Waist belt pockets and a sternum strap would be welcome.
Why bother? The external frame design is simple, well ventilated, and very efficient at weight transfer. It lends itself to multiple interchangeable bag designs and is excellent for hauling bulky items like bear cans, inflatable boats, photographic equipment, tools, or scientific instruments. I think smaller packs are better suited to internal frames, but once the 50 liter mark is reached, an external frame can be lighter and handle the bulky or heavy load more comfortably. The ability to adjust the frame to a wide range of torso sizes can make them useful for families and outdoor organizations.
Note: the orange and black rod is a trekking pole to prop it up for the photo:
Mar 1, 2013 at 8:40 pm #1960350
FYI: I have a newly identical one but a little older I think with metal hardware.
Here are my numbers:
Stock: 4lb
Minus "hanger" bar and removable top cross bar: 3lb 5oz
Harness + frame, no bag: 2lb 3oz
Frame + bolts: 1lb 5oz
Bare frame only: 1lb 4oz
I'm actually working on a Carbon fiber version with a lot of the upgrades you mention. I'm about to start a movie, so I'll have to elaborate later…
ETA: I changed my mind. I'm not going to go into details as I know at least one other person is working on something similar. I guess I'll just wait until I have a proven prototype. I am excited about the possibilities though, and I'm excited to see what comes of other peoples work.
I do agree with a lot of your points, and I think it's possible to see a true external in the weight range of some of the popular UL frameless packs.Mar 2, 2013 at 8:44 am #1960481
All this external-frame talk is heretical and surely upsetting to some folks, so let's just avoid posting and reviewing any "Revisiting the Raichle Boots" kinda stuff, m'kay?
That's a great look at a Jansport, and probably the most detailed review I've ever seen. I think three things used to stand out about the Jansports:
1) contoured frames that follow the back, unlike the rigid Kelty ladder frame;
2) some torsional flex for comfort, which I also attribute to the squeak some had;
3) Jansport-specific ideas on configuration and placement of the pack bag.
I guess I should add that I recall they cost a lot more than the paradigm Keltys, too, but that's long ago.
When I see these photos and the analysis (and coming from the perspective of *liking* my external), I think about how cool it would be to have a packbag made with much lighter materials and updated suspension components. With an intention to lighter loads, think how that hip belt on the Jansport could be redone!
Cool post, thanks for doing it!Mar 2, 2013 at 10:04 am #1960507
Nelson SherryMember
@nsherry61Locale: Mid-Willamette Valley
If you're not careful, and you keep pushing this external frame idea to its ultra-light pinnacle of design, you may just end up with an Osprey Exos pack.
Coming from the bicycle industry which uses lots of both aluminum and carbon fiber, there is no doubt the carbon fiber rocks in modern bicycles. Why? Great strength to weight, kinda like aluminum, and better vibration damping than aluminum. Vibration damping isn't a big deal in pack frames. Flex can be. Lower end carbon fiber technology actually doesn't save weight over the much less expensive and easier to work with high-end aluminum. So, to build a carbon fiber pack frame that has any real advantage over an aluminum counterpart is going to require the highest end carbon fibers ($100's worth of raw material) and custom layup and molding ($10,000's in tooling and design). Pre-made carbon tubing, cut and bonded or clamped, will NOT outperform aluminum in this application in my opinion. And, any advantages of the highest end, best designed carbon, will be slight if measurable, and prohibitively expensive.
P.S. I have an old squeaky bolted together external frame Jansport backpack that we still use. They were and are, great bags if renowned for brackets coming loose, weak zippers and thin fabric . . . our's hasn't completely failed yet.Mar 2, 2013 at 10:15 am #1960515
"I think about how cool it would be to have a packbag made with much lighter materials and updated suspension components"
I started with a 4+ pound Jan Sport frame (with MSR bag) and kept modifying and replacing things until I ended up with the 7 ounce pack shown in the link below.
DarylMar 2, 2013 at 12:15 pm #1960566
"If you're not careful, and you keep pushing this external frame idea to its ultra-light pinnacle of design, you may just end up with an Osprey Exos pack."
I already have one :) My Exos 46 is 2lbs 4oz, but it doesn't have the hauling capacity of the Jansport. We're 1.5 pounds apart as is. The Exos design is guilty of complexity. IMHO, the design team should be taken to the woodshed for piling on all the gadgets and geegaws to the excellent core design of the Exos. It reeks of marketing types co-opting the committee
I would lean to the Osprey style ventilated shoulder and waist straps. It crossed my mind to just buy spare suspension parts from one of the packs that offer interchangeable sized hip belt and shoulder straps.
I agree on the carbon fiber issues. Anyone who has the resources and capital to go after a similar design will run a gamut of patents, so this is probably a MYOG endeavor at best. The frame on the Jansport is easily adapted with common home workshop tools and so well executed that I would concentrate on pack bag and suspension to lighten this thing. If you dissected the components of a good Cuben pack (in design), and add them to a bare Jansport frame, you could end up with a big hauler in the neighborhood of 2.5 pounds. The economics would be questionable unless this is a budget MYOG project; otherwise, I could see it gobbling cash in big bites. I will probably approach it as a Frankenstein project, waiting to find a trashed backpack with adaptable suspension components. REI has the Crestrail 70 shoulder strap module for $22 and the women's version is just $8 — less than the hardware alone would cost.
The whole project only makes sense if someone wants to haul heavier, bulkier loads, which is rather antithetical to general UL principles in the first place. If you shrink the frame on the Jansport significantly, you will indeed end up with an Exos-like pack; it would certainly look like a Dana/Mystery Ranch external.
One thing that inspired this post was a recent acquisition of a Gregory Z65, which is the antithesis to the Jansport design. The Gregory is big and complex, festooned with straps, buckles, zippers and padded panels. It weighs another 7oz over the Jansport too.
Mar 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm #1960570
Max DiltheySpectator
@mdiltheyLocale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Was this birthed out of that novice Max Dilthey asking about external packs? ;)Mar 2, 2013 at 12:50 pm #1960583
There was a bit of UL synchronicity there, no doubt, along with the thread accompanying Roger's review of the Deuter Actlite 40 +10 backpack.Mar 2, 2013 at 1:07 pm #1960587
"All I did was give it a bath and brushed its hair"
IT'S ALIIIIIVE!!!Mar 2, 2013 at 11:09 pm #1960768
scott NelsonBPL Member
@nlsscottLocale: Hawaii/Sierras
I was happy to find a garage sale Jansport pack that I could hack up with no guilt if the project failed. I was able to eliminate three of the cross bars and with a new simple bag and hipbelt, it weighs 3 lbs. 4 oz. I am thinking this will be good on trails for winter and in summer when I have to use a bear can. I may go back and make a smaller bag for summer.
ScottMar 3, 2013 at 5:32 am #1960789
Looks nice.
But, after all that chopping you only saved an ounce?! What happened?
Did you use really heavy fabric or a lot of straps or something?
P.S. what's the capacity on that pack? Must be enormous!Mar 3, 2013 at 6:30 am #1960800
Lance StalnakerBPL Member
Don't tell anyone, but I still have an old 80's Jansport D4 hangin out in my gear closet…nice review on the pack, I enjoyed it.Mar 3, 2013 at 6:47 am #1960803
Time to come out of the closet Lance, the externals are making a comeback!!!Mar 3, 2013 at 6:59 am #1960804
John DonewarBPL Member
@newtonLocale: Southeastern Texas
Pretty work Scott! ;-)
I've got one of those 4 pound 13 ounce packs languishing in my gear closet.
I bought it for all the wrong reasons back in the day. It was relatively cheap and had almost 5000 cubic inches of room.
Live and learn.
Party On,
NewtonMar 3, 2013 at 8:59 am #1960835
Daryl's truly UL external is pretty darn cool!
However, I want the new OCLV monococque, carbon-fiber-framed external frame backpack with the dyed-cuben/dyneema grid packbag modeled after a Super Tioga and bearing the limited-edition, "throwback" Kelty logo that's on Hammacher Schlemmer for only $1,400.00. 26 ounces.
Okay, like maybe next year.Mar 3, 2013 at 9:27 am #1960839
What, no waterproof down?Mar 3, 2013 at 9:31 am #1960841
Nathan WattsBPL Member
"What, no waterproof down?"
Waterproof BREATHABLE down!Mar 3, 2013 at 10:38 am #1960851
I found the Zen website with some external frame info at http://zenbackpacking.net/Backpacks.htm . They note that Evernew made some titanium load frames for sale in Japan. My searches came to dead ends.
More to the thrift store side of things, they claim the the Outdoor Products frame is the same as the Coleman Peak 1 Ram-X plastic frame. I have seen many more used Outdoor Products version and passed on them, assuming they were inferior copies (I may still be correct) I've thought this frame style had good UL potential because of the multiple attachment points and the design used to make the attachments: a metal toggle that sldes into the slots in the frame. I'll have to keep an eye out for one.
Outdoor Products Enduroflex frame from their Saturn backpack:
I found a photo of another Jansport that has a top design I haven't seen before:
Note the bend in the tubing at the top X. This eliminates the machined blocks and the ball detent/frame piece to hold the top of the bag. The lower X is at the joint that allows the top section of the frame to be removed/replaced, allowing it to be threaded through the sewn channel in the bag. It's not as elegant as the machined blocks, but this is much more approachable for a MYOG builder with a conduit bender and some tubing. The bag is still suspended in the same way.
Imagine melding this with something like the plastic frame from the Outdoor Products/Coleman frame above.Mar 3, 2013 at 3:32 pm #1960957
Here's what you get when you hang a Jansport bag on my myog carbon fiber frame.
Jansport bag 18 ounces
Everything Else 5.6 ounces
TOTAL about 1 1/2 pounds
This Jansport bag has about 2400 cubic inches in the main bag and 300 cubic inches in the pockets for a total of about 2700 cubic inches.
Tent, sleep pads, etc. can be strapped to top bar of frame (say 700 to 1500 cubic inches?)
I also use a front bag with at least 600 cubic inches.
So this set-up could carry anywhere from 2700-5000 cubic inches (44-81 liters).
The Jansport bag is a bit smaller than the 1-4 ounce bag I usually use on this frame.Mar 3, 2013 at 3:46 pm #1960964
DougBPL Member
"I want the new OCLV monococque, carbon-fiber-framed external frame backpack with the dyed-cuben/dyneema grid packbag modeled after a Super Tioga and bearing the limited-edition, "throwback" Kelty logo that's on Hammacher Schlemmer for only $1,400.00. 26 ounces."
You're just mean. I went to the Hammacher Schlemmer site with credit card in hand ready to buy this thing, then found out it doesn't exist. Jerk.Mar 3, 2013 at 4:01 pm #1960970
"The whole project only makes sense if someone wants to haul heavier, bulkier loads"
I'm not into heavier but I do like the capacity to carry bulky loads. The weight cost of a larger backpack is small but the convenience is big, in my opinion.
I like having the capacity to carry an extra bear canister, a 5 gallon bucket, a 1arge Japanese fish float, a big synthetic sleeping bag, litter from the beach, my hiking partner's pack, etc.
That's why I've stayed with the external frame concept for the last 50 years or so.
DarylMar 3, 2013 at 5:28 pm #1961008
I was using a 4×5 camera in the mid to late '70's and it was a big monorail rig, not a folding field model. I rigged a "freighter" style frame to haul it all— upwards of 45 pounds. It was goog for short hauls.
Hauling bear cans would be high on the list; I can imagine a coordinated can and pack frame system. A pack fram with a waterproof compartment for photographic equipment would be interesting too.
Ultimately, I would want something more compact with a lower center of gravity.
I recently saw an ad for an internal frame using wood parts. A finely laminated wood frame isn't out of the realm of possibility. Nicely done, it would be very much at home in the wilderness, much like a wooden canoe or laminated fly fishing net.Mar 3, 2013 at 7:59 pm #1961069
"I went to the Hammacher Schlemmer site with credit card in hand ready to buy this thing, then found out it doesn't exist."
Well now, Doug, the only reason I mentioned the Carbon Fiber Kelty is because I want one from Hammacher Schlemmer and you may know somebody in a similar
situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if you're in a
situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's go to Hammacher Schlemmer and say, "I want a Carbon Fiber Kelty". And walk out. You know, if
one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and
they won't help him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
they may think they're both faggots and they won't help either of them.
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in, asking for a Carbon Fiber Kelty and walking out. They may think it's an
organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in, askin' for a Carbon Fiber Kelty and then walking out? Friends, they may think it's a *movement*.
And that's what it is , the Backpacking Light Carbon Fiber Kelty Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar.
With feeling.
:)Mar 3, 2013 at 8:01 pm #1961071
just Justin WhitsonMember
"You're just mean. I went to the Hammacher Schlemmer site with credit card in hand ready to buy this thing, then found out it doesn't exist. Jerk."
Haha, there is always hope, you can still buy my carbon fiber framed, dyneema external backpack which weighs 13 oz for 1400–heck, i will be magnanimous and sell it to you for a meager 1200.Mar 3, 2013 at 8:28 pm #1961083
"And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
fifty people a day walking in, askin' for a Carbon Fiber Kelty and then walking out? Friends, they may think it's a *movement*"
Arlo would be proud. But does the AT go through Stockbridge, Massachusetts?
Walk right in,
It's around the back,
Just a half a mile from the railroad tracks
You can get anything you want
At Alice's Hikin' Hut
Eeeeeeeexcepting Alice…..
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THE GREAT AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Its Rise to Preeminence, Its Indispensible National Role, and Why It Must Be Protected. Jonathan R. Cole. xii + 616 pp. PublicAffairs, 2009. $35.
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Still, this volume is a cogent affirmation of the model of the American research university and its undeniable contributions. Given that so much writing about these institutions takes the opposite slant, The Great American University can be a valuable corrective.
Roger L. Geiger is Distinguished Professor of Higher Education at the Pennsylvania State University and editor of Perspectives on the History of Higher Education. He is the author of Knowledge and Money: Research Universities and the Paradox of the Marketplace (Stanford University Press, 2004) and is coauthor (with Creso Sá) of Tapping the Riches of Science: Universities and the Promise of Economic Growth (Harvard University Press, 2008). He is also a coeditor (with Carol Colbeck, Roger Williams and Christian Anderson) of Future of the American Public Research University (Sense Publishers, 2007).
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subset: commoncrawl


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It's the end of an era. Mozilla will continue with donations from IBM and Sun, but as AOL owns the Netscape name, it's dead. 7.1 was the final version.
R.I.P. Netscape, 1994-2003
font size reduced back to normal, Admin
> See also [sdt=2639]Netscape is not really dead[/sdt].
UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0)


text:
I was reading the Eagles Message Boards the other day, and 90% of the giants fans on there are morons.
Happyfoosball, Dr Zaius, SZJ, and Giantz4life are the only guys that consistency post there who aren't idiots.
I point this out because there are a few NFC east rivals on our boards who and decent posters. They support their team but also (for the most part) are realistic with it as well. Eagles and Cow fans alike.
They don't try to kiss ***. They stick up for their team and the players.
For example Ntegrase. We like to rag on Romo, who is actually a very good QB, and Nte defends him accordingly.
There are so many Giants fan on the EMB who are such Eli bashers it isn't even funny. In reality they are just clueless. They hate on the guy that has gotten us this far. Almost like they are trying to appeal to the Eagles fans.
Perhaps you could point out some good Giants posters who I have not seen. But the impression I got from spending some time on there is that most are an embarrassment to the Giants.
okay, rant over


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Discussion in 'MN - Minnesota Chevy Truck Club' started by Z71_guy, Mar 30, 2009.
wheres everyone from, i know we got a few Minnesotans on here
St. Cloud
grew up in Elk River
Grew up near Milwaukee but moved to Winona for school for 4 years and I've been living in Rochester since I graduated last year. I will die a Packer fan though.
Over 24,000 members on the GMTC and only TWO ppl from MI!?? C'mon now..!.. LOL
Red Wing born and raised, Mankato (7yrs) for school and a little partying!!
Rosemount Mn, and now I'm in Mankato, and hope to stay there!
I'm a new member as of a week ago. I was born and raised in Bloomington, But I live in Apple Valley now. I drive a 97 Suburban 1500 2wd.
i live in maple grove with no intention of moving out of state anytime soon
i grew up in a little town called Rice just north of St.Cloud../ now im living in savage, mn
kinda live in Minnesota, I live in Fargo which is connected to MN. I used to live in Brainerd also
AAa... it's the MN
Separate names with a comma.


text:
I talked my bro-in-law into buying bees with me a few years ago. As we talked about bees while driving out to where we kept the bees, I mentioned that beekeepers don't get arthritis, or at least not often. He got all excited and wanted to try it on his tennis elbow. So for about 6 weeks I caught 2 bees and stung him right on his elbow every Saturday. His pain went away and hasn't returned. We also tried it on his knees with complete satisfaction.
As for me, I don't go looking for stings, but I when i feel like I need some I just "forget" to be slow and careful when working my bees and get all I need. I was having pain in my hands and a couple of knuckles were beginning to make noise when I moved. That has completely gone away since I took up beekeeping.
So, let's hear it from all you other beekeepers.


text:
Pictures are a necessity, in cases like this.
Upload your pictures to a site called Photobucket. Then copy-and-paste the link from each separate Photobucket upload to your post here.
The low serial number might make this a fairly valuable gun. Marlin made a couple of different types of rimfire revolvers, in .22 and in .32, during the late 1800s.


text:
Naughty Revealing Photos Of The Bella Twins Baking Cakes & Drawing At Home
the guy editing this post must be thinking "i love my job"
must resist making kitchen joke
damn…idk if i should put my d*ck in it or my face. hmm decisions…decisions.
I'll eat her cookie!
I wonder if they nailed each other lol
chris love ur job but, bree flash or john cena near by?
I would love to taste both brie and nikki's creamy cupcakes and lick up all that sticky goodness,they are just so damn sexy and delicious from head to toe,I would lick icing off of them from any part of their bodys,love me some bella twins…………..yes!!yes!!yes!!yes!!yes!! :-)
OH look two females that know how to stay in the kitchen. Keep up the tradition ladies
john cena's is one lucky man
cena is so lucky
they are butt ugly
damn hamza
pics suck,what's naughty about them
Damn remove the thing


text:
Cardiff Confucius Institute recently celebrated the launch of a Confucius Classroom at Cathays High School, Cardiff – bringing the total up to 11 Confucius Classrooms across Wales.
With their dedicated teachers from China, Confucius Classrooms are able to offer pupils Mandarin as part of their curriculum, as well as adapting subject areas such as History and Geography to include fascinating insights into China. Chinese teachers at the Confucius Classrooms also extend their teaching activities to other schools in their catchment areas, making extra-curricular and more regular teaching of Chinese available to many schools that might not otherwise have the resources or funding to deliver such enrichment.
The Cathays High School Confucius Classroom was launched on Monday 15th July 2013 by Mr Feng Zhi, the second secretary of the Education section of the Chinese Embassy, with representatives from the Welsh Government, the British Council and Cardiff Confucius Institute also in attendance.
The launch evening included musical performances from pupils at Cathays High School and a traditional Chinese tea Ceremony, as well as a tour of the dedicated Confucius Classroom, which was brightly decorated with Chinese crafts and examples of pupils work.
Eluned Davies- Scott, Head of Community Education and the teacher responsible for the Confucius Classroom at Cathays High said: "It is a really exciting time for Cathays High School's partnership with China. We are delighted to be one of about 400 Confucius Classrooms that have been established in over 100 countries, demonstrating once again the truly international status of Cathays High School. We are a school that believes in opportunities for all and with China at the centre of the global economy the next generation will need to understand its culture and be able to work in its language."
Cathays High is one of 11 Confucius Classrooms across Wales which form part of the Wales China Schools initiative managed by Cardiff University's Confucius Institute. The school intends to develop Mandarin GCSE at the school, as well as using its Confucius classroom status to build partnerships with other primary and secondary schools to develop opportunities for Mandarin Language acquisition.
Rachel Williams, Cardiff Confucius Institute's School's Manager stated: "We are especially pleased to be able to participate in the formal launch of Cathays Confucius Classroom. This Classroom has been established in partnership with the Confucius Institute, based at Cardiff University, and reflects five years of partnership during which Chinese tutors from Cardiff University have been delivering courses at the school."


text:
New York, NY - July 11, 2007 - 2K Sports, a publishing label of Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. (NASDAQ: TTWO), announced today that Top Spin 3 is planned for release next spring for the Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system from Microsoft and the PLAYSTATION3 computer entertainment system.
Created by 2K's critically acclaimed Paris studio, PAM Development, Top Spin 3 immerses players in a visually and physically realistic tennis experience. Using next generation technology, gameplay and graphics, Top Spin 3 is a benchmark-setting tennis experience with dynamic weather changes, evolutionary player visuals and the most comprehensive online offerings.
In Top Spin 3, players compete online and offline to rise in the ranks against current top ranked professional players. Adding a unique user-generated component, players can also use new player creator features that include free-form body sculpting, makeup and tattoos.
"This game transcends the boundaries of what has previously been achieved in the acclaimed Top Spin franchise by ensuring every detail is accurate, from the cloud cover to lighting, from sweat to dirt on clothing, to every drop shot, slice, lob and backhand," said Christoph Hartmann, President of 2K.
Top Spin 3 will be available for PLAYSTATION 3 and Xbox 360 next spring. For more information, visit http://www.topspin3thegame.com/.
About PAM Development
Founded in 1997, PAM Development is located in Paris, France. In 2005, PAM Development was acquired by Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc. PAM has developed a diversity of sports titles on both consoles and PC. The studio is best known for Top Spin, first published by Microsoft on the Xbox video game and entertainment system in 2003. The sequel, Top Spin 2, was released in 2006 on the Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system from Microsoft, PC, Nintendo DS and Game Boy Advance. The innovative gameplay, state of the art visuals and flawless online play made Top Spin one of the most acclaimed tennis franchises.


text: Hey guys! Im a a newbie on the forum but i have a few questions to you lighting experts out there. So two things, im looking to put a 40 or 50 inch light bar on the top of my cab, can anybody recommend any brands/makes and give me any possible downsides to doing this? im also looking to replace my headlight Halo bulbs with color bulbs. I have recon headlights in my truck right now, i can get the model number for them as soon as im home from school if needed. Any help is appreciated! Thanks!


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Very cool,thanks for that Steve because I'm pretty much in the same boat.
I've just been reading an old, old book about shooting, and in it I found something that I wish I'd known about years ago, while I was still competing.
Although I've been moderately successful in practical rifle exercises, I have never been particularly good at distance estimation. Therefore, I almost always missed badly with my first shot at an unknown distance, and only hit with my second or third after making mental or actual-sight-setting corrections.
To make a long story short, If you know the width of an object, you can very closely estimate your distance from it!
Here's how it's done:
Fully extend your right arm. Grasp your right fist within your left hand, left arm also fully extended. Make your arms rigid.
Extend your right index finger.
Close your left eye, and open your right eye.
Visually place the tip of your right index finger at the left edge of the object of known width, that is an unknown distance away. (You may have to swivel your body slightly, to do this.)
Without moving anything at all, close your right eye and open your left eye.
Using your knowledge of the width of the object, estimate how far to the right from its left edge your finger has "moved" when you switched eyes.
Multiply this estimated distance by 10.
That is your distance from the object!
The ratio of the width between your eyes to the length of your arm is just about 1:10.
Sitting in my reading chair, my fingertip "moves" about a foot of the 18" width of the DVD player.
Thus, the DVD player is pretty close to 10 feet from my reading chair.
(Turns out, it is so close to 10 feet away that it isn't worth noting the difference.)
(I'm going to be posting this same technique on a couple of other forums, so you may see it again.)
Very cool,thanks for that Steve because I'm pretty much in the same boat.
Nice Steve. My precision rile has built in tick marks but this method is far faster and far easier. Thanks.
Thanks for the estimator. I'll apply it to the range I go to. They have no markers on the walls and the members side is the only one with distance readouts on the target mover. I'll mark 1 foot on the cardboard backer and be good to go.
Now what do I use as a guide for 12 inches?
oh Yeah, my shoe!


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Town Square
What's up with the Fire Department Contract
Original post made by Mr. Brown Act, Another Pleasanton neighborhood, on Jul 13, 2012
Considering government transparency is in vogue (sort of), and we are talking about taxpayer funds, how long is this process going to continue while keeping the consumer/financiers/money providers in the dark? The entire process is absurd.
Who is protecting whom?
Comments (57)
a resident of Avila
on Jul 13, 2012 at 8:37 am
Anything We The People pay for should be open for us to read. This includes teachers, police, fire department, city workers and all of their administrators. All of it. Number of hours, how much vacation time, over-time pay and the retirement benefit.
The retirement age needs to be moved up to match the private sector and yes, there are jobs that police and fire fighters can do when they are older without being hazardous...
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Jul 13, 2012 at 8:57 am
Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.
I know of at least one place where negotiations themselves are open to the public, not just reading about them. Can't recall if public comment is allowed, but being able to attend the meetings mean you can then comment to the council or board who has final approval.
a resident of Downtown
on Jul 13, 2012 at 9:03 am
The contract will not be significantly changed. They will still retire at age 50 with 90% of their final earnings paid for life. Every year they will get a COLA and every time the workers get a raise, they will get one also. They will collect these obscene pensions although they have paid virtually nothing into them. Their health care will likely still be entirely free for life, all of this paid for by us. We will go bankrupt while they enjoy our fully funded retirement starting at age 50. Most will take another job and will collect full pay as well as full retirement benefits.
Are you fed up yet? Have you written to the city council to tell them?
The pensions need to be changed to 2% at 65 with no paid medical benefits. Any earnings they have after retirement must reduce, dollar for dollar, their pensions and that reduction needs to stay in place for life. They need to contribute fully to their pensions, not some infinitely small amount that is not significant.
Don't bother with the argument that "no one will want the job". Nonsense. Put out the word Pleasanton is hiring, with these restrictions, and watch the swarms of people show up for the class.
a resident of Downtown
on Jul 13, 2012 at 9:29 am
Keep thinking the golden goose will never die lugnut. Your pension is not as secure as you think. Taxpayers have had enough of cops and firemen getting good wages to work and better pensions to retire at age 50. How's that disability scam coming along for you? Have you logged every little made up injury from date of hire to prove that you are retiring on a completely tax free pension?
Yeah, I do know what I am talking about. Been married to a fireman for nearly 30 years. Heard all the stories about guys like you and watched all the jerks retire on their "disability" to go play golf every day. Rape of the taxpayers, simple as that. The honest guys, like mine, pay the price in disrespect from everyone who hears about the ones like you.
a resident of Downtown
on Jul 13, 2012 at 9:40 am
eventually you run out of "other people's money".
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 13, 2012 at 7:10 pm
I totally agree with you, taxpayer" about how many people would show up for a firefighting job in Pleasanton if *half* of the current salary and benefits were offered. Do you know how many young men and women have been through firefighting school, thinking this would be their career, only to find out when they were half-way through the program that there are basically no jobs available anywhere. It's such a boondoggle. These programs are still being taught at community colleges everywhere in the State by firefighters (on their many days off) and only a very, very small percentage of the students will ever have a chance of getting hired anywhere. How many families are being ripped off and how many young people are wasting a couple of years of their life doing this? It is shameful, really.
If it weren't for the ironclad union, this job would have been vulnerable to low wage immigrant labor. I hardly ever see the firefighters shopping together in the grocery store anymore. I used to see them all the time and the kids would go up to them and be so excited. That was before so many people lost their jobs and realized what was going on. Along that line, maybe firefighters might want to be considerate to the public by not displaying their union sticker on their Lexus. They may be proud of their union but everyone else is irritated...and we are paying those salaries. Taxpayers who work long, hard hours themselves and have nowhere near the pay and benefits, have paid for those nice cars.
I'm not saying a decent salary isn't warranted for this critical and important job. It's just that things have gone too far.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 13, 2012 at 10:05 pm
This public union back and forth seems a good place to insert my reaction to the comments on the conflict between Dublin officer and homeless person, resulting in a shooting. Thoughtful comments on that restricted thread, and I was ready to add one myself. Then came upon a midnight comment full of attitude and arrogance, with a so there, lecture to Pleasantonians. ...'just remember all Pleasanton police and fire earn every penny of retirement and do work we're afraid to do.!' Inappropriate. Union fight always right there on the edge. I can't help but think his attitude must interfere with doing his job. He's probably arguing at that secret union 'negotiating' table. That's why we can see just how everything is granted on the spot. What we see following is just theatre, to look like both sides were thoughtfully 'discussing'.
a resident of Livermore
on Jul 13, 2012 at 10:42 pm
Public employee contracts are just that... Public. The city of Pleasanton City Council held a public hearing prior to entering into negotiations with all employees. When an agreement is reached, it will also be reviewed publically and voted on by the council.
Public employees are professional, well trained and committed people. All the programs, community improvements, safety and community maintenence to make Pleasanton a beautiful community is done by these employees.
I think these employees have a right to make a wage and benefits to live in the community they maintain and protect. The current challenges with pensions comes from investment losses. These losses were not driven by public employees. They were driven by dishonest and greedy private sector employers and investors who caused collapse of the banking industry and the housing market. The two strongest economic drivers in the United States. If this had not happened, investments would still be strong and pension costs would be little or nothing, like they were in the mid 1990's.
Much of the negative here is misrepresented or misinformed. To receive a 90% pention, you must work 30 years, not to 50 years old. for some, that will be 50. For many, that is 60, or unattainable because their bodies wont hold up to the work.
To the person with the spouse with 30 years on the job. Please thank them for me. I know what the have been through and the things they have seen over a 30 year career. Please do not assume your spouse in the only honest firefighter. The fraud you speak of is a selfish few in the workforce, and exists in EVERY workforce.
Do not presume you know what public employees actually do for a community unless you have been one. Everything you enjoy, from your parks to your safety is brought to you, coutesy of them.
a resident of another community
on Jul 13, 2012 at 10:43 pm
I agree that the lack of transparency is appalling. By gosh, this would not happen in the private sector. Chase Manhatten, for example, like my own presidential campaign and my willingness to reveal my economic finances and taxes, is a fine example of how public sector institutions should strive to emulate those of the private sector.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 13, 2012 at 11:44 pm
To informed, who is so NOT informed..Definitely blind, biased or naive. You may try to con other uninformed and or gullible. but it won't work.
First, comparable pay for comparable education, security, length of service, and contributions would be realistic. However, such is not the case.
But the really big untruth is about the public union financial stability and lack of sustainability. From day one they were financially impossible to sustain longterm, even if nothing had changed in the economy. The investment situation just made it visible to the most ignorant and uninformed, but the situation was there all along. The trajectory would only have been a short bit later. Small postponment, but inevitable, very inevitable mathmatically. Statistically unsustainable from the day those first excessive contracts written in Gov Davis day. Studies and warnings were published several years earlier. Nice try, but euphemistically speaking....factually incorrect.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 14, 2012 at 2:33 pm
"Informed", the program got real bad when the professionals in the unions convinced the elected officials that a huge increase in pensions, combined with the greatly decreased age to required, plus making that retroactive till the day the employees started their job, would not cost the taxpayers anything. Add to that the ability to spike salaries and really cheat the taxpayer with saving sick and vacation time and allowing employees to purchase "air time". Oh yes, add to that free medical care once the employee retires.
The current system of public employee unions is completely broken. the employees have all the rights while the taxpayers (i.e., the employees) have none. The decisions made around 2000 which were obviously bad decisions cannot be turned back, according to the unions.
I have a simple solution to the problem:
1) Figure out the correct compensation and benefit package for new employees (something comparable to the private sector). Have a pension system that is comparable to what the taxpayers have (i.e., 401(k) type plan plus social security where the employer and employee pay equal amounts), pension costs calculated at the actuarial amount that the private sector would require, and no free retiree medical insurance. Then calculate the total cost for that employee.
2) Employees on existing benefit packages can not get an increase in any salary or benefit (e.g., increase in medical insurance, etc.) until their total cost (including benefits) is below the same level as new employees (group 1).
3) Employees from group 2 can change to the salary and benefits of group 1 if they wish.
Pretty simple. That should be a simple state initiative which would apply to all state agencies including general law cities and counties.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 14, 2012 at 3:24 pm
So many of you think you can fool me. But you can't, as any idiot is capable of doing the math and then realizing that a flood of overwhelming proportions is coming. Look at Stockton. There are people moving out in droves because, after declaring bankruptcy -- BANKRUPTCY -- there will be no police force, no fire fighters, to corrupt teachers' unions. It's a return to what existed just prior to the great flood that Noah and his family saw coming.
I like what Scranton has done. Minimum wage for all public 'workers', and cut 40% of them who don't deserve any pay whatsoever. This is what they do in the private sector. My own extensive mathematical calculations show that cuts like this are necessary if we are to get to the kind of society we need to live in, where Chase Manhatten execs earn 170 times what a peon teacher or fire fighter earns.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 14, 2012 at 6:39 pm
I thought we were comparing neighboring taxpayers to neighboring public employees. We local taxpayers in East Bay do not make NYCITY wages EITHER ! ! We're comparing each other in education, skills, years, exchanged, benefits, contributions, etc, ...Now you think you're a Wall Street genius !! Life isn't fair, but neighbors who are 'exchanging' goods, time, and sweat, should be fair to each other, and not intentionally screw your neighbors.
a resident of another community
on Jul 14, 2012 at 7:02 pm
I agree that fair is fair. The really important people like at Chase Manhatten, Lehmann Bros., Wells Fargo, Walmart do more of their fair share of sweating compared to the little people. It's time we acknowledged this. It isn't enough that CEO's make tens of millions per year; what is important is that we not tax them as much as their secretaries get taxed.
Before exiting, I do want to stress how awful my opponent is being with his undignified criticisms of my background and my refusal to divulge past tax forms. I wish I could deny the charges for heaven's sake. But since I can't, let it suffice to call my opponent a very classless act. He's in way over his head. We need a businessman for President. Sincerely yours (well, sort of -- heh-heh-heh), Mr. Mittens
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 15, 2012 at 7:00 am
Before exiting, I do want to stress how awful my opponent is being with his undignified criticisms of my background and my refusal to divulge my school transcripts. I wish I could have actually attended classes, but I was too busy community agitating. But since I can't, let it suffice to call my opponent a very class act. I'm in way over my head. We need a businessman for President. Sincerely yours (well, sort of -- heh-heh-heh), Mr. Mitwad
a resident of another community
on Jul 15, 2012 at 7:26 am
Yes, Mitwad is so correct. Of what importance should a record of my business practices be compared to my opponent's law school transcripts? Harvard says only top 10% of class is eligible for the Harvard Law Review, so Obama's presidency of the HLR must have been some kind of affirmative action thing. Or, the people who were doctoring Obama's birth certificate for the time this socialist was planted in our midst may have been doctoring Obama's law school records as well.
We need a businessman in the White House, but my past experiences as a businessman, how much money I earned, what taxes (ha-ha-ha) I "paid," whether my filings were legal or not, well, for goodness sakes, these means nothing compared to a sitting president's law school transcripts.
Mr. Mittens = Full transparency. Heh-heh-heh.
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Jul 15, 2012 at 11:06 am
Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.
A picture is worth a thousand words: Web Link
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Jul 15, 2012 at 11:26 am
So are you going to give your pension back, then, Staceleen? Early retirers sure do add to that tidal wave!
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Jul 15, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.
I'll respond when you figure out you are trying to address two people. (Hint: Lip service doesn't count.)
a resident of Bridle Creek
on Jul 15, 2012 at 12:47 pm
Staceleen, you dodge questions like a lifelong politician. You sure you won't run for governor? They could call you The Great Evader. In the predictable lack of a straight answer, it seems you're content to retire early on the taxpayers' dime, but you're not really down wit' OPP (other people's pensions). That cartoon tidal wave's got nothin' on your own personal entitlement wave.
a resident of another community
on Jul 15, 2012 at 1:07 pm
Oh my!!! That cartoon that Staceleen offered is too much!!! It confirms in cartoon black and white what my friend Arnold has been saying for years. There is a tsunami coming! How original! All the more reason we should resist Obama's efforts to raise taxes on Americans (or at least on Wealthy Americans, which being our job creating heroes, are the only ones who count).
My fellow Americans (and you little people, too), we are faced with a choice: raises taxes on the best of us to help pay outrageous salaries and pensions and health benefits of the little people among us; or punish the little people for asking 'for more, sir.' Obviously, fire fighters and police and teachers have been living beyond their means. I see this clearly from the perspective of all six of my houses around the country.
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Jul 15, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.
NS, Not a dodge; it's a request for you to acknowledge the idiocy of your claim.
Mittens, "raises taxes on the best of us to help pay . . . the little people" Interesting viewpoint on who is best, who is little, and the image of Oliver apple to public sector employees.
a resident of Vintage Hills
on Jul 15, 2012 at 1:29 pm
Kathleen Ruegsegger is a registered user.
Sorry, image of Oliver applied to . . .
a resident of Pheasant Ridge
on Jul 15, 2012 at 1:34 pm
apology accepted
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 15, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Mittens, maybe instead of being so defensive you could approach the FD contract from the opposite angle. I agree with you, by the way, that the FD employees are the little people but many don't accept that argument. You and the FD would be better served by justifying the average employee cost of 230K (before overtime) by equating it to the number of calls for service. Most people understand the need for the Fire Department but many don't understand how many calls they respond to. Some even wonder why Paramedics and the FD respond equally to what amounts to 90% medical calls?
Actually that last question is interesting. Are taxpayers being double billed for both paramedic/fire response?
a resident of another community
on Jul 15, 2012 at 10:47 pm
"Most people understand the need for the Fire Department but many don't understand how many calls they respond to. Some even wonder why Paramedics and the FD respond equally to what amounts to 90% medical calls?"
Boy, do I ever agree. I'm the kind of fellow who seeks understanding about how many calls FD's respond to. Even though they are little people, I follow them during great lulls and during fire seasons. too. So we're both seekers of FD response! And oh boy do I ever wonder a lot about why FD AND paramedics respond to fires and crashes. That's one of my biggest wonders!
Now, I bet you know where I' going next! I'm thinking that FD little people, given that they aren't important like internat'l bank officers and hedgefund managers, shouldn't make as much money during the slow seasons.
Of course I wouldn't stop there, my friends, but I'd also cut half of the jobs. Too much task redundancy if you ask me. And if this resulted in a few more houses and comercial establishments burning down, well, heck, think about the job stimulus that would create in the housing industry.
I'm a conservative, folks. And I'm always looking out for you and your interests.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 15, 2012 at 11:26 pm
... the people paying for the duplicitous calls for medical response and the dwelling fires that rarely happen, and the over staffed department with average employee cost of 230K per employee (not including overtime or the ridiculous pensions that are NOT fully accounted for in the 230K in average cost number), do not receive six-figure salaries and then bill the city for overtime even when it really isn't (just another scam).
The people that are paying for this grossly overpriced service are people that work full time and make much less, without lifetime medical or six figure pensions at age 50, and do not get paid overtime unless they actually work overtime. The little people don't make these excessive six figure wages nor do they even have the option of six figure pensions at age 50.
a resident of another community
on Jul 15, 2012 at 11:42 pm
Oh my gosh! So is your point that little people deserve to make those kind of wages too? Because if it is, you are treading into socialist country my friend. And we don't want to go there. For what would THAT do to the current distribution of wealth in this company ... erm, I mean country.
But if your point is that FD workers -- mostly corrupt and lying slackers, I agree with you -- should return money to the democratic state that pays their wages, then you've got a point along with the other incompetent headshakes along with you who got canned from their local FD for one reason or another.
Happy to oblige you, my friend. My motto: if you've got a grudge, however unreasonable, I'll make it my crusade. We need to inflict pain upon the unworthies for the benefit of the worthies.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:03 am
...Wrong on all counts. I don't consider the FD slackers - I just think they have little to do especially considring the private Parmedics are usually the first to respond and also do the transporting. The FD is the most oversold service in Pleasanton: overstaffed, too costly, and way under utilized.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:40 am
I appreciate the entertainment value contained in your drama queen antics, but you still haven't commented on the 230K plus average cost per employee, the overstaffing, the duplication of service, the fact paramedics are often the first to respond and also do the transport, or the excessive cosr of it all.
Oh yea, can't forget the pensions or retiree healthcare costs that are mostly deferred. And how much overtime do you need to work to receive overtime pay?
a resident of another community
on Jul 16, 2012 at 7:36 am
Like I said, I'm sorry the Pleasanton FD had to get rid of you. I'd feel obsessively vengeful too if I had been unceremoniously bounced on account of incompetence and moral turpitude as you were.
Still, I can tell you have really thought this through. I'd much rather have private paramedics arrive at the scene to put out one of my houses on fire than a fire dept. I just love the private paramedics' hook-an-ladder trucks! And one of the best policies I've ever seen is when the private paramedics insist on being paid
BEFORE they will take someone to the hospital.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 16, 2012 at 8:32 am
You don't have to pay private paramedics before they take you to the hospital.
a resident of another community
on Jul 16, 2012 at 9:00 am
In many communities across this great land, private paramedics insist on receiving a down payment before they will transport someone from pt. A to pt. B. Now, if I am proven wrong, I will certainly retire my comment, retroactively.
As for these "super-secret negotiations," I just want to tell you that everything about my campaign involves transparency. Oh, there's my opponent's desperate attempt to get me to reveal my tax returns, but great Americans like myself shouldn't be made to suffer such an indignity. Truth be told, and I always tell the truth, John Kerry's wife never revealed HER tax returns. Now, maybe she had her wealth before marrying the awful man, and, yes, he revealed his own tax returns, but this just confirms my point: people like Kerry's ketchup wife and myself are not part of the little people like Kerry and so many other aspirants for the office of the president.
Now, about that matter of getting private paramedics some nice red, shiney hook-and-ladder trucks.... Mayor Giuliani was right: we didn't need fire fighters back during the days of 911, and we certainly don't need them now. Why, a salary of 80K is about 1/3 of what my friends and I will save by preserving tax cuts for the rich. That is scandelous! Where do these fire fighters get off thinking they can bamboozle real Americans who actually work for a living? Let's see THEIR tax returns!
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 16, 2012 at 11:22 am
I repeat: you do not have to pay private paramedics to take you to the hospital in any kind of emergency that the fire dept would transport you. The liability of refusing transport would put these private ambulances out of business. If you are requesting a convenience transport to receive non-emergency care such as regular kidney dialysis or something of that nature, they would require pre-payment. But certainly not for a heart attack, stroke, accident, childbirth etc. The average transport costs around $1000. with variable insurance payment depending on your insurance plan. They will come after you for the rest. This is an expense most Americans will incur once in their lifetime.
It's not so much the FD salary that does not equate to fellow taxpayers, it's the crazy benefits! Who gets those pensions and health care? Even 20 year military officers have to wait until they are 65 to collect pensions that are 40% of their ending salaries. And their risk level and time away from their families (months at a time) and hours actually involved in labor, are significantly greater.
a resident of another community
on Jul 16, 2012 at 12:54 pm
I'm so relieved you're not bothered by my own corporate earnings, often 'earned' on the backs of others, and that I, as serious candidate for the nation's highest office, refuse to divulge my back tax information. For what business is it of anyone if I am a crook or not? The Republican Party has already established it's comfortable with my lying. Heh-heh-heh.
And thank goodness you're not going to talk negatively about the $270,000.00 average my friends will withhold from the state if I and my good friends get our way.
No, the REAL problem is fire fighters. I'm so happy so many of my supporters have their priorities straight. Keep them that way, wish for wealth, and you never know, life might take a turn for the better and you won't be sitting and watching FOX news all day.
p.s. Comparing fire fighters with our military personnel is misleading. The fire fighters are little people; but military is even more so. What kind of a loser would one have to be to accept those kinds of salaries/wages? All the more reason to dump on them, I guess. Heh-heh-heh.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 16, 2012 at 1:36 pm
Kathleen, thank you for that great WebLink. I'm sure some overlook it, like I almost did. Amazing how she is on target point after point, and yet be so, so funny ! ! (wrong on very few)
Definitely a case if a picture worth a thousand words ! I looked and laughed for an hour, and must finish later, A must see for all.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 16, 2012 at 1:39 pm
After taking a 20 year retirement, military members...
get another job. No different than what we all do when one job ends for one reason or another. Then at 65, retired military can collect a pension based on 40% of their last salary (often dating back to 20+ years before). And they get their medical care at the VA - pretty good care but often it's hit and miss - it's certainly not a cadillac medical plan! Why is it this way? Because the taxpayers who get no pension at all and have only Medicare, can't afford anything else!
So why would anyone serve 20 years in the military? It's good, hard, worthwhile, challenging work, often 18+ hours a day (awake)for weeks on end and often half way around the world without family but you believe in your country and something greater than yourself...and you get about $15-50,000 more a year in pension (the higher amounts for Generals) than you would have if you had regular private sector jobs for 20 years...but it's certainly not the crazy public pensions we are hearing about. Generals couldn't collect (at 65) half of what the local fire chief gets at 50.
Just some perspective.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 17, 2012 at 3:49 pm
The firefighters are too busy parking cars for Cook-Kallio's fund raisers to worry about negotiating their contract. . .
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 18, 2012 at 4:08 pm
If 90% of fire department calls are medical wouldn't it be more cost effective and productive to fund less fire department stations and staff and increase the number of paramedics, while saving taxpayers money? Paramedics Plus uses predictive technology to locate units around town based on frequency of calls using time, location, and other factors to place units in proximity to statistically probable location of need. If you have ever noticed paramedics parked in certain locations at certain times of the day that is the reason. The two man crews are stationed in their vehicle ready to respond to emergency calls, which is much different than sitting in a fixed location (the station).
The FD doesn't transport. If the Paramedics are usually the first responders and also transport, then I agree with another poster that mentioned double billing for paramedic services and transportation. If there is a better and more efficient way to provide medical services while also reducing the cost to the General Fund it needs to be explored. The big argument from the FD's standpoint is that paramedics can't do extractions when vehicles are badly damaged. I would agree that with that statement but it doesn't necessitate the number of underutilized fire stations in Pleasanton.
a resident of another community
on Jul 18, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Oh, 'late to the discussion', you are such a fibber. Do you not think we all know it's been you and you alone pushing this little mythological conflict you've constructed? Still, I forgive you. Because who doesn't lie once in a while, after all. Heh-heh-heh.
But you raise a good point. Perhaps Paramedics should not be called to the scene of a fire unless there is rock solid evidence that someone has been injured. Otherwise, why waste the gas money? And perhaps, too, Fire Fighters should not be called to an accident unless the Paramedics arrive first and state categorically that an extraction is necessary. The lost time for the victim, in either case, will easily be offset by the savings of tax dollars to the community.
Stay tuned for more brilliant commentary from your friendly Republican neighbors and their hero ... ME!
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 18, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Nice try mittens. This argument is happening in cities all over California. The argument centers around providing cost effective services to communities at affordable prices and, also, re-engineering those services where appropriate. Probably no other taxpayer funded service that needs more re-engineering than the fire department.
Do recent technological breakthroughs in building materials and higher standards in building construction with increased use of sprinkler systems mean nothing to you? What about the increased understanding of fire science? The days of bucket brigades and towns burning to the ground are a distant memory. It is time the fire department acknowledges fighting fires is a small part of their job. And Pleasanton isn't alone you know. Every city has mutual-aid agreements with their neighboring cities.
Your diatribe continues to promote increased wages, the HSR, taxes, big government, and anything else that consumes taxpayer dollars or requires future taxpayer subsidies. Pensions? What's that? You seem to make unintelligible arguments opposing anything that reduces government cost. Why is that? Is you compensation based on a percentage of the tax dollars skimmed from public employee union wages? Or are you paid by the post?
Do you even know the average call volume of the LPFD? Are you aware that, according to the LPFD website that one station only responded to 265 calls in the last year they provided statistics?
Nothing criminal about taxpayers questioning how their money is spent. It only seems to be upsetting to you, mittens.
a resident of another community
on Jul 18, 2012 at 5:48 pm
My diatribe, as you call it, is only to agree with my supporters, however half-baked their ideas.
Yes, I too know a lot about science. I know that there are very good corporate scientists, just like those who were in the employ of the tobacco industry, who say that increased forest and grass fires is a myth, just like cigarettes causing cancer is a myth; that earthquakes and gas explosions and fires are by no means imminent in the Bay Area; that likelihood of such things as more severe storms, draught-induced fires, landslides and floods are all just fictions. Because, you know it as well as I, all those noncorporate scientists (darned near close to 100%, I think) are trying to scare us with this global warming nonsense.
So, in conclusion, I agree with you. You seem like a really bright guy -- kind of like MY kind of guy. Sprinklers, yes. Great technology. With sprinkler systems, there is no need whatsoever to worry about gas fires and explosions. Genius. Keep up your intellectual heavy lifting fella! Why, with ideas like yours, we'll drive straight into the White House.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 18, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Mittens, I do not agree with you. Let me restate my position.
This argument regarding excessive fire department contracts IS happening in cities all over California. The argument centers around providing cost effective services to communities at affordable prices and, also, re-engineering those services where appropriate. Probably no other taxpayer funded service that needs more re-engineering than the fire department.
Do recent technological breakthroughs in building materials and higher standards in building construction with increased use of sprinkler systems mean nothing to you? What about the increased understanding of fire science? The days of bucket brigades and towns burning to the ground are a distant memory. It is time the fire department acknowledges fighting fires is a small part of their job. And Pleasanton isn't alone you know. Every city has mutual-aid agreements with their neighboring cities, including Pleasanton.
Your diatribe continues to promote increased wages, the HSR, taxes, big government, and anything else that consumes taxpayer dollars or requires future taxpayer subsidies. Pensions? What's that? You seem to make unintelligible arguments opposing anything that reduces government cost. Why is that? Is you compensation based on a percentage of the tax dollars skimmed from public employee union wages? Or are you paid by the post?
Do you even know the average call volume of the LPFD? Are you aware that, according to the LPFD website that one station only responded to 265 calls in the last year they provided statistics?
Nothing criminal about taxpayers questioning how their money is spent. It only seems to be upsetting to you, mittens.
I want to ask you these question again, not that you actually answered any of my questions in the first place because you didn't - or couldn't, but that is just you... Do you even know the average call volume of the LPFD? Are you aware that, according to the LPFD website that one station only responded to ONLY 265 calls in the last year they provided statistics?
There is little doubt that the FD contract provides an opportunity for significant General Fund/taxpayer savings should the city have the courage to stand up to the IAFF/unions/IAFF friendly council members. The compensation these employees are receiving is obscene. The only justification for maintaining the current level of compensation is based on what other cities pay. We now know that what "other cities pay" is considered too much by "other cities" that also believe they pay too much; that is an understatement.
Considering shrinking tax dollars and accelerating employee costs push is coming to shove. The FD employee costs have risen SUBSTANTIALLY during the great recession, the past 15 years really, and it can't continue. If you consider supply and demand, education, or even danger there is no justification for the level of compensation this department is receiving. Nor is their justification for the current staffing levels.
Dublin doesn't pay anything close to what Pleasanton pays based on metrics like square smiles, per capita costs, or any other measurement you want to debate. Dublin also doesn't have 10's of millions in unfunfunded pension liability that Pleasanton residents are saddled with (and most don't even know it).
a resident of Parkside
on Jul 21, 2012 at 7:46 pm
I agree that firefighters here in Pleasanton make WAY too much money! Now I don't think we should pay them minimum wage but certainly not enough to afford a home in this community, and yes some DO own homes here. Obviously not the nicer homes in the nicer parts of town, but still.
a resident of Birdland
on Jul 21, 2012 at 8:54 pm
The idiocy here stirs me to the core. So there are negotiations going on. The prevailing thought is that the general public should be made aware of that evolution step by step in real time? You would like the opportunity to weigh in on negotiations as they occur? This is not reality television. These are people bargaining for the cost and value of doing very dangerous work. If you cannot be pleased that these people are bargaining to be your servant than the least you can do is be quite. It is true that only fools and children should see things half done.
What YOU, yes YOU, mandate that these people do for you as public servants goes well beyond fighting fire and the implication that fires happen less so they do less only serves to announce you profound ignorance. They are your ambassadors for everything from Pre hospital medical care to auto extrication, water rescue, and yes even structure fires. The laws that YOU have enacted required that they are certified to perform all of these duties under standards and those are not up to negotiation o or speculation. It is glaringly obvious that the malcontents here have no idea that rank and file members of the LPFD have college degrees in amazingly diverse topics such as physics and kinesiology, some even have Masters degrees. All have very technical and specialized knowledge in a variety of life and property saving disciplines. A number of members are nationally recognized teachers and operators whose skill set is so precise and so sought after they are deployed worldwide to help with disaster mitigation incident management. KNOW THIS, when the world calls people carrying YOUR name respond honorably. All of which is brought to bear on every call, every time, for the benefit of the residents and their guests that pass through. You pay for this world class service and you are getting what you pay for.
MITTENS: Laws YOU enforce requite 2 paramedics be on scene at every medical call, EVERYONE! YOU did not want to pay for both medics so YOU made a binding contract with a private agency to provide the other in exchange for the ability to transport and bill the patient. Then YOU enacted legislation that forbid any fire department to provide transportation and billing to lock the funds away from the FD. (San Bernadino ACT, look it up) Do homework before slandering.
NO you cannot have volunteers to do what they do. Do you think Pleasanton is Oakley, Bethal Island? Extended response (ALMOST NONE OF YOUR FIREFIGHTERS LIVE IN THE CITY, they cannot afford it) times and no training standards. Who do you think you are getting on X-mas eve? What do you think happens if a volunteer gets injured/killed on the job? How inexpensive would that be?
NO YOUR CITY IS NOT BROKE. It has a 10% operational reserve fund and a 25 million $ additional reserve. The malcontents need to do some homework or LISTEN to those council meeting you watch.
YES 2 RESERVE FUNDS!!! It's not hard to find. The council talks about it almost every session. By the way that is YOUR MONEY they are playing with. (For another time)
The idea that someone looked did the idea that a firefighter cost 230k a year is lunacy. It cost far MORE than that. The training and upkeep of an employee is the most expensive component of any endeavor private or public. But keep in mind they are YOURS and YOU DEMAND they perform. The Malcontents here are absolutely not aware that the FD responds to an increased call volume year after year since they consolidated. They have no understanding that their protocols and conditions of employment have doubled since 2000. YOU DEMAND ANIMAL CPR, YOU DEMAND 12 LEAD EKG's They do as YOU ask they provide service YOU demand and when financial times get tough you fire them or dissolve the funded positions and save a truck load of money. There is no contract provider ANYWHRE that offers you the same flexibility as your own employee. That is why you're elected officials never suggest dissolving the FD or PD and going to outside contract.
So much of what goes on here is complaining about cost with no regard to value. There is no one on this thread that provides any perspective of what you get for your dollars. The malcontents here are just sure they are getting ripped off. The majority of you have no idea the value added to your life and your reputation. That is no entirely your fault. It is the fault of the fire department for not educating you. The relationship between the fire department and the civilians has been fractured. Your elected officials share in this blame as well. They fear for their jobs if they publicly praise any employee because of platforms of public discourse like this one (SHAME ON PW for promoting ignorant civic discourse. You are the rotten end of the American soul). I promise you the same people YOU elected were the same people who rejected the FF associations' pleas to fund the pensions during the decade + it cost nothing to fund it. The same frauds that came to the FF association and offered, yes they offered, to pay the employee portion of their pension because it saved on payroll taxes. These soulless fractions of humanity now remain silent when ignorance and hate and venom have replaced rational thinking. To compound matters, orders are in place to keep the employees silent. Did it ever dawn on you why you never hear from the employees? Did you assume that men/women whose career it is to manage fear and chaos for others is scared of a conversation? They are held by law. Their right to free speech is suspended because they are sworn personnel. It is called "nexus". If a nexus between their comments and their job they can be disciplined.
The malcontents here are thinking "so what they still make too much!" The average plumber makes about the same. Retirement and all. To those of you thinking Dublin pays less pay strict attention to value not cost. Dublin pays about half of the annual budget of the PLFD and they have 3 or 4 fire companies. ANDWHEN DUBLIN RUNs OUT OF PEOPLE TO CALL… THEY CALL FOR YOUR PEOPLE!! They are leaching off of your service. Do the research. Ask around about what a "Mutual Aid Contract" is.
I'm sure I've offered too much reality for this web site. PW is a sham, promoting such disinformation and civic discourse. In a time when we need to be coming together as people it is the lowest forms of humanity that arrive to drive us apart for their own emotional greed.
To you malcontents: manage your emotions elsewhere. You are slandering the good name of some fine and honorable people. Go to a fire house and ask questions. Talk to the people that serve you.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 22, 2012 at 5:06 am
Get over yourself. The job is important but way overpriced, overstaffed, and over pensioned. Have you seen all the fluff in the contract?
a resident of Birdland
on Jul 22, 2012 at 6:45 am
Logic and Reason is obviously on the fire watchers' payroll. And based upon the length of his reply (which was too long for THIS reader to read), he's getting paid by the word. I think PW editors should vet some of the contributors here. I don't like paying taxes to underwrite this kind of shameless propaganda.
I too find it entirely scandalous that fire watchers would be able to live in this community. A cousin I have in New Jersey told me how they do it. First, because they do hardly anything on their shift, most of them have set up a private business on the side. Second, they are all feasting on unnecessary overtime. Finally, they get their relatives into the picture and then they pool our money to buy big compounds in Ruby Hills where they set off fireworks that they've confiscated from patriotic taxpayers. It's enough to make you puke!
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 22, 2012 at 12:36 pm
Just absurd! I too have a relative in the fire "biz". Sometimes they even stay at their homes if they live in the area and then have their buddies call them from the station if they have a really big fire, which is almost never. So they get to stay at home and collect their massive salaries for doing NOTHING! This is another good reason they shouldn't be able to afford to live here.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 22, 2012 at 4:33 pm
None of my friends, relatives, or neighbors have pensions. I'm a senior who worked on commission and have no pension myself. but, I've heard most who do, have done their own contribution, the organization mostly just 'sets up' the plan, making some tiny tokens of contributions.
Wait, I do have a neighbor with a pension, PG&E, of course 'public' utility rates creep into that conversation too. OPM
To Informed, who is not so open, and knows Pleasanton holds a general 'venting' meeting, but the talking between city and union is all secret, no observers, no pubic notes...all secret. Then the night of the vote, we get to 'watch them vote', that's after their secret 'negotiations', a farse in the city's case it's a nod and a 'ok'. Normally city get nothing, but once in recent years, we actually got a few insignificant crumbs....for show.
a resident of Happy Valley
on Jul 22, 2012 at 6:41 pm
So let me pose this question: What should the annual salary for a firefighter be in Pleasanton?
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 22, 2012 at 9:56 pm
"So let me pose this question: What should the annual salary for a firefighter be in Pleasanton?"
Good question but the answer is more complicated then just the issue of salary, which is inflated. The real question, in my opinion, is what is the appropriate level of: total compensation for FD employees for each position at various levels of experience, necessary staffing levels for both frontline personnel and management including Battalion Chiefs, appropriate level of pensions (a BIG issue), healthcare obligations for both current and retired employees(a BIG issue), and should the department be regionalized to take advantage of economies of scale.
Part of the discussion also needs to include the appropriate level of FD staffing vs. the use of increased levels of Private Paramedic services. The current system isn't cost effective.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 22, 2012 at 11:30 pm
Right, strange no matter how simple, both Paramedics and fire show up for everything.
Is that so when time for the heavy 'negotiating' that sorta 'ups' the call numbers....like you 'need' us really bad. But we'll work hard and
work overtime and save you folks money....like we're getting a bargain.
But the hourly is paid by taxpayers thru city channels, but we also get billed sometimes for double coverage. You know who pays from all directions, no matter what it's called.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 22, 2012 at 11:49 pm
Population: 46,743
Square miles: 14.62
GF Revenue: 71.6 million
Per capita Public safety costs: $522
Population: 71,534
Square miles: 24.2
GF Revenue: 112.9 million
Per capita Public safety costs: $700
This is only a small part of the larger story. Dublin's unfunded liability for public safety pensions and retiree healthcare costs is ZERO. While Pleasanton is paying 34% more for public safety on a per capita basis they have also accumulated about 100 million dollars in unfunded pension & retiree healthcare debt.
If Pleasanton were using the Dublin model of contracting safety services the city would have millions of more dollars to spend on things like bike trails, the Bernal Park, etc … without the long term debt obligations that are further encroaching upon Pleasanton's general fund. These unfunded liabilities will eventually require the necessity of increased taxes. Increased taxes aren't necessary if the city right sizes services. So far they haven't done anything except lower the pensions of a few employees (future employees) that may not have even applied to work for the city.
a resident of Birdland
on Jul 23, 2012 at 7:22 am
I don't get a pension. Why should anyone else? Its based on the rational pie model. The wealthy get most of the pie. That's only right because they're creating jobs in Dublin, Bangkok, Beijing. Then there's a little slice left over, and these insane public workers try to maximize for themselves and their families. It isn't fair. America's working people should not live well if other workers are not. Maybe if we gave a higher portion to the wealthy, working people would have less money to deal with, and so we'd all be comfortably poor without pensions. Giving more money to the wealthy would increase jobs for the rest of us. I make minimum wage. Why should anyone make more than that? I DETEST public workers.
a resident of Birdland
on Jul 23, 2012 at 8:55 am
To: Rational Man - You detest public workers? Go live on a mountain and take care of yourself then. Live off the land, bandage your own wounds and don't spend a dime. I am sure the wildlife would listen to your rants.
And to those who are saying "I pay your salary so I should have some pay". Yes, that is true you pay for the public services. But that is part of being in a society.
There is so much anger on these forums for teachers, police, fire etc. But when your child needs to be taught or you need to be rescued they are there.
Give us all a break and shut up. Go do something productive.
a resident of Another Pleasanton neighborhood
on Jul 23, 2012 at 9:02 am
Rational man, like fake steve and fake arnold are trolls trying to stop real debate over the issues.
a resident of Castlewood
on Jul 24, 2012 at 8:45 am
I believe that the fire department should be a volunteer organization. They should have their "real" jobs and then put in time taking care of the citizens of this fine city. But alas, they are paid and sucking the money from our fine community. I do, however, believe that they should not earn enough to live in Pleasanton. It is a blue collar job and Pleasanton should not have blue collar workers living here. They should not be able to afford to feed a family either so they should remain bachelors/bachelorettes.
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Livermore trustees demonstrating wisdom
By Tim Hunt | 11 comments | 1,387 views
2017 guide to summer camps
Looking for something for the kids to do this summer, learn something new and have fun? The 2017 Summer Camp Guide features local camps for all ages and interests.


text:
Use those bottles
Save up plastic water or soft-drink bottles to use as mini watering systems if you're going to be away for a few days. Fill them with water, up-end and poke them into the soil beside plants.
Look to laterals
If you like to remove the laterals from your tomatoes (not everyone agrees) now's the time to start. And make sure your plants are well-staked.
Mulch important
Mulch like mad. But don't be tempted by all those grass clippings you're sure to have - they're not ideal so chuck them in the compost instead.
Be prepared
Make sure your watering system is organised for summer. If you don't have drip irrigation, check you have enough taps and hoses. Replace damaged hoses with kink-resistant ones.


text:
UTSA Alumni Programs hosts Connections Breakfast
By Adi Pavlovic
Student Writer, College of Liberal and Fine Arts
(Feb. 23, 2006)--The UTSA Alumni Association will host a Connections Breakfast at 7:15 a.m., Tuesday, Feb. 28 at the Marriott Northwest hotel, Loop 410 at Interstate 10.
The breakfast event is a way for alumni to share information and personal experiences with other UTSA graduates. The quarterly breakfasts feature speakers offering their insight, experience and advice.
Today's headlines
- La Prensa Foundation is newest member of UTSA Lone Star Society
- UTSA alumna Jordan Kaufmann wins $50K for new stent-graft start-up
- UTSA begins new way-finding sign installation this summer at Main Campus
- USA Today: UTSA long jumper Tyler Williamson rescues three-year-old boy
Article tools
Dick Schlosberg, a 23-year veteran of the communications business, former publisher and CEO of the Los Angeles Times and the Denver Post, and a member of the eBay board of directors, will speak at the event.
The UTSA Alumni Association promotes and serves the university through programs that maintain relationships between students and faculty, forge new community partnerships and encourage continuing educational and professional development.
With 64,000 UTSA alumni, the Alumni Association offers many opportunities to help alumni become reacquainted and to meet community leaders.
The Connections Breakfast is open to the public. The cost is $15 for Alumni Association members and $20 for non-members. Make reservations at the Alumni Association Web site.
For more information, contact the Office of Alumni Programs at (210) 458-4133.


text:
Veracruz journalist shot dead after reporting on oil theft
Mexico City, May 6, 2015--The body of Veracruz radio journalist Armando Saldaña Morales was found on Monday in the neighboring Mexican state of Oaxaca, according to the Oaxaca state attorney general's office and news reports. The journalist had been shot dead, the reports said. The Committee to Protect Journalists condemns the murder and calls on authorities to identify the motive in the killing and ensure the perpetrators are held to account.